[Tuesday, 5 September, 1972) 292199

Cabinet and resulted in a decision that an inquiry was Tuesday, the .5th September, 1972 not requisite. (3) and (4) Answered by (2). The PRESIDENT (The Hon. L. C. Diver) took the Chair at 4.30 p.m., and QUESTIONS (7): ON NOTICE read prayers. GRAIN BILLS (2): ASSENT Bulk Handling Message from the Governor received Tihe Hon. D. J. WORDSWORTH, to and read notifying assent to the follow- the Leader of the House: ing Bills:- (1) What percentage of the total 1. Supply Bill. grains handled by Co-operative Bulk Handling Ltd. is- 2. Bulk Handling Act Amendment Ca) wheat; Bill. Cb) barley; QUESTION WITHOUT NOTICE (c) oats; (d) linseed; POLICE (a) rape; and Request for Inquiry (f) other seeds? The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH, to the (2) What are the charges to farmers Minister for Police: to handle each of these crops? Referring to my question of the (3) Do all these crops require long 23rd August, 1972, and the Min- term storage? ister's reply thereto- (4) Is there a different charge for (1) Has a decision been made on grain exported compared to ]home the request from the Aus- consumption? tralian Labor Party seeking an (5) Will all these grains be using the inquiry into certain conditions new facilities at Kwinana? prevailing in the Western Aus- tralian Police Force? The H-on. W. F. WILLESEE replied: (2) If so. what is the decision? (1) For 1970-71 percentages were: (3) If no decision has yet been Wheat-68% made, when is it expected it Barley-21 %i will be made? Oats-! 1% (4) Will the Minister inform the Linseed - House of the particulars of Rapeseed less than 0.02% the decision, and the nature Other seeds of the inquiry, if any, to be (2) The costs associated with the held? handling of all crop types deliver- ed to Co-operative Bulk Handling The Ron. J. DOLAN replied: in the 1970-11 season 'were I thank the Leader of the Opposi- averaged out at 10.513 cents per tion for giving rme notice Yesterday bushel of grain delivered. of his intention to ask this ques- tion. The reply is as follows:- (3) There has been some carryover from one year to the next, mainly (1) A request for an inquiry to wheat, which faced an oversupply be construed as a genuine ob- situation in world trade in recent jective approach aimed at years. Most grain is, however, improving job satisfaction and shipped from storage within 12 making it more attractive to months of harvest. recruits and not to be taken as an attack upon the Police (4) No. Force, was received from the (5) It is envisaged that most grain State Executive of the Aus- types will pass through the new tralian Labor Party and a terminal at some stage in the decision has been made there- future. on by the Government. (2) As Minister for Police, I FLOODS decided to obtain the views Prevention at Carnarvon of the Western Australian Police Union and the Com- The Hon. 0. W. BERRY, to the Leader missioner of Police to enable of the House:, me to evaluate the various With reference to mny question on aspects of the matter. These Thursday 3rd August, 1972, regard- were then submitted to ing the extension of the Levee (97) 2922 2922COU-NCIL. Bank at Carnarvon, will the Gov- The lion. W. IF.WHLLESEE replied: ernment give consideration to the (1) This question is inadmissible on acquisition of land required from two counts: it seeks an expression people who are prepared to ne- of opinion on a question of law gotiate now? and it is hypothetical. The Hon. W. F. WILLE SEE replied: The I-on. G. C. MacKinnon: I thought The detailed design and exact you would have used the word, location of the levees has not yet "suppositious!" been finalised and, therefore, It is The Hon. W. F. WILLESEE: I repeat1 not possible to give consideration the word is, "hypothetical." to acquisition of the land required (2) If details are supplied by the Hon. at present. Member of any actual case which appears to him to Indicate unlaw- 3. TRAFFIC ful retention of moneys due to the State, the matter will be inves- Greenmount Sign tigated. The Ron. N. E. BAXTER, to the Min- The I-on. W. R. Withers: Road main- ister for Police: tenance is a start. Referring to my question of The PRESIDENT: Order! Wednesday, 23rd August, 1972, regarding the road sign at Green- 5. PROBATE mount reading "Traffic Control Payment on S'harehzoldings Area" - The Hon. 1. 0. MEDCALF, to the (a) can the Minister inform the Leader of the House: House if signs with the same (1) Does the Minister know that a wording are used in other number of companies which whilst States of Australia; not technically carrying on busi- (b) why did the former "Metro- ness in Western Australia never- politan Traffic Area" sign not theless derive their profits from Provide for realistic traffic this State through a subsidiary or speeds because of geographic assciated company thus avoiding reasons? the necessity of the parent com- panies having to register here? The Hon. J. DOLAN replied: (2) Does he appreciate that this means (a) No. Generally the application that Western Australian residents of a 35 miles per hour speed holding shares in such companies limit applies in other States have to bold their shares on East- to "built uip areas" where ern States Registers thereby entail- street lighting is provided. ing the payment of one or moie (b) Some sections of the Metro- additional lots of probate duty as politan traffic area extend into well as Federal and Western Aus- the rural areas where a 35 tralian probate duty? miles per hour speed restric- (3) What concesslonal fees operate to tion was inappropriate. For encourage companies which do not example, the whole of the carry on business here to open Shire of Serpentine-Jarrah- share registers in Western Aus- dale is within the Metropolitan tralia and thereby save Western traffic area. Australian residents from being unnecessarily involved in high 4. TAX COLLECTORS rates of Eastern States death duty? Obligation (4) Will the Government give consi- The Hon. W. R. WITHERS, to the deration to extending these con- Leader of the House: cessions in the interests of local (1) Where a person who Is obliged to citizens? collect a tax under a State Statute The Hon. W. F. WILLESEE replied: on behalf of the State, does be (1) Some companies registered out- commit an offence if he retains side Western Australia derive the amount of the tax and uses profits in this State through sub- that amount for his own purposes? sidiary or associated companies. (2) If the Minister's interpretation of (2) Yes, but the rebate provisions in Erskine May's "Parliamentary respect of death duties paid in Practice" indicates that the ques- other jurisdictions will apply. tion in part (1) is inadmissible. (3) Section 349 (1) of the Companies will he name the responsible Act provides a maximum fee of person in this State who will $1,000 on the registration of a answer "Yes" or "no" to this ques- foreign company which has estab- tion? lished a share register in Western [Tuesday. 5 September, 1972] 292392

Australia and satisfies the Re- (3) This matter has never ceased to gistrar that it is not carrying on be considered by the present Gov- or does not propose to carry on ernment and the system of rents business in the State. charged and rebates is currently (4) The provision is uniform with under comprehensive review. other States but consideration can be given to the matter at the ap- 7. EDUCATION propriate time. Teachers' First Aid Qualifications HOUSING The I-on. D. J. WORDSWORTH, to the Leader of the House: North-West: Eligibility In view of their responsibilities The Hon. W. R. WITHERS, to the particularly in country areas, what Leader of the House: first aid qualifications are attained (1) Further to my questions on 17th by graduates of Teachers' Train- and 23rd August, 1972, concern- Ing Colleges? ing discriminatory calculations of The Hon. W. F. WILLESEE replied: rentals against State Housing Commission tenants in the North, All students in teachers' colleges is the Minister aware that a tenant are given basic training in First at Balga earning $96.89 plus Aid as part of their compulsory 51.92 per week for each dependent course in Health Education. Some child can qualify for a two bed- students do further training in room brick fiat at a standard depth. All students reach a level rental of $13.40 Per week and that approximately equal to that of the a tenant in Karratha earning St. John Ambulance Course. $102.89 plus $1.92 for each de- pendent child will qualify for a two ADJOURNMENT OF THlE HOUSE: bedroom, fibro flat at a standard SPECIAL subsidised rental of $28.30 which is more than double the rental THE HON. IV. F. WILLESEE (North- of his city counterpart? East Metropolitan-Leader of the House) (2) Will the Minister confirm that the (4.47 P.m.): I move, without notice- large number of State Housing That the House at its rising adjourn Commission rental units built in until Wednesday, the 6th September, the past six years would not exist at 2.30 p.m. with their relatively low rentals if it were not for the income Question Put and passed. provided by the companies and residents in the North of this State? PRISONS (3) Will the Minister consider equa- Classificationof Films: Ministerial lity of rentals throughout the State Statement in the cause of development and decentralisation? THE HON. a. H. C. STUBBS (South- East-Chief Secretary) [4.48 p.m.]: Mr. The Hon. W. F. WILLESEE replied: President. I desire leave to make a minis- (1) Yes. The construction and servic- terial statement. ing costs on which the Metro- The PRESIDENT: There being no dis- politan Standard Rent of $13.40 sentient voice leave is granted. was based, when fixed in March, 1969, differed greatly from the The Hon. R. H. C. STUBBS: On Wed- current costs from which the rent nesday, the 16th August, 1972, I undertook of $20.30 for a two-bedroom apart- to obtain answers to several questions con- ment at Karratha was assessed. cerning the type and number of films This latter rent is an assessed, not shown to inmates of correction institutions, a standard rent. The rent Is which were asked by Mr. Wordsworth. Now, further subject to rebate on ap- having obtained the information, I believe plication by an entitled person. this subject would be of general informa- (2) The State Housing Commission tion to all members. Accordingly, and with has always endeavoured to keep your permission, Mr. President, I give the rents down in the North by various answers to those questions as follows- building subsidies and special re- (a) There are no restrictions on bate arrangements additional to classification of films. the ordinary rental rebate scheme. It has always allowed a much (b) No. The prisoners are not divided higher level of income eligibility, into groups. as compared with the Metropolitan (c) The films are selected by inmate Region and Southern Country committees with the approval of Centres. the institution superintendents. 2924 2924COUNCIL.)

(d) The list of films shown over the Child Rearing. past six months Is-- Child Birth. Household Sanitation. Entertainment Australia's Aborigines. Donovan's Reef. Integration. Eldorado. Travel Films, Madigan. The Arts-Music. The Carpetbaggers. Drug Addiction. The Subterains. Alcoholism. Follow that Camel. Billy Grahamn-Religious. Carry on Cleo. Rothman's Sports Library. They're a Weird Mob. Zulu. Cat Balou. LOTTERIES (CONTROL) ACT McHale Joins the Air Force. AMENDMENT BILL Seven Guns for McGregor. Introduction and First Reading The Magic Stone. New World Holiday. Bill introduced, on motion by The Hon. Grand Prix. R.H.C. Stubbs (Chief Secretary), and read Holiday Starts Tomorrow. a first time. Carry on Doctor. Maya. TRAFFIC ACT AMENDMENT BILL Stalag 17. (No. 2) Guess Who's Coming to Dinner. Th- Sbeepman. Second Reading: Defeated The Great Locomotive Chase. Debate resumed from the 24th August. The Plainsmnan. Knock on Wood. THE HON. S. T. J. THOMPSON (Lower Fail Safe. Central) [4.54 p.m.]: Let me say at the Under the Yum-Yuni Tree. outset that I am rising to oppose the Bill Fort Utah. before us. After having listened to some Coogan's Bluff. 20 speeches which have been made in this True Grit. debate it is quite possible that I will repeat Henry V. some of the things that have been said. My In Enemy Country. reasons for opposing the Bill will be out- Barbarella. lined as I proceed. Global Affair. Sons of Katie Elder. In moving the second reading of the Seven Ways from Sundown. Bill the Minister said that the main reason Imitation General. for the Government bringing the Bill for- Journey to Shilohi. ward was that this was in line with Labor House of Cards. policy. I was rather surprised at that com- Genghis Khan. ment. I should have thought that more Carry on Nurse. emphasis would be placed on the reduction Westward Ho the Waggons. of the road toll. There was very little Court Jester. reference in the Minister's speech to the Ambushers. reduction of the road toll, other than the Man's Favourite Sport. mention of the views of two eminent sur- A man Called Dagger. geons. That was the only occasion In the Yangtze incident. Minister's speech when the road toll was 3 Worlds of Gulliver. mentioned. Nurse on Wheels. In fact, a large portion of his speech War Lover. was taken up in countering the suggestion Boeing Boeing. that a separate traffic control authority Alfie. be set up. I believe that at the present time Quiller Memorandum. our aim should be to do something as Hellfighters. quickly as possible to help in reducing the Hootenany Hoot. road toll. The Girl-The General. A Very Private Affair. Over the past two weeks I have made a The Revenge of Frankenstein. careful check of many of the speeches Jack of Diamonds. that have been made in this debate, and Age of Consent. it has been evident that not a large number Lord of the Flies. of speakers have much confidence that this Kim. piece of legislation will achieve the desired Flight of the Phoenix. result. Some suggestions have been made Lemon Drop Kid. as to how a reduction in the road toll could The Longest Day. be effected; and in the main the emphasis was placed on driver education. I agree Educational this is very important; but with all due Safety in the Home. respect to those who have put forward this Safety on the Roads. proposal I say that despite the best pos- Treatment & prevention -3f V.D. sible driver education being given to a (Tuesday, 5 September, 1972] 2925

young Person, after he has spent a few I have a feeling that perhaps if we hours at a cabaret or night club all he has were to foster this proposal throughout learnt from such driver education is dis- the State it would prove to be much more regarded in a very short while. economical, both financially and with re- I feel a lot of training has to be given to gard to manpower. It would achieve the re- the individual and this is more than just sult we want. I can visualise that we would driver education before we will achieve need to hold seminars to train inspectors. any success in the reduction of the road and to co-ordinate the system of training. toll. Prom a quotation made by Mr. Logan It is also Possible that some shires will re- in his contribution to the debate, it would quire financial assistance. It seems that appear that even the most ardent sup- some of them might be handing over con- porter of this piece of legislation-The trol of traffic for financial reasons. West Australian-now has some reserva- tions as to how much effect the legislation I visualise the situation where we will will have. eventually have a central traffic control which will be more costly than the pres- My reasons for opposing the Bill are ent system. However, there would not be in the main the views held by my electors: the constant issuing of infringement they are absolutely opposed to it. This Is notices. borne out by the large number of telegrams I think and communications I have received in it was Mr. Dellar who mentioned respect of this matter the idea that we would reach the stage in the last few days. where traffic inspectors would not have to These were from- prefer charges. However, human nature Mt. Marshall Shire would need to change somewhat before we Trayning Shire achieved such a situation in Western Aus- Wyalkatchem Shire tralia. I feel that the joint control we have at present is the most suitable for Western Beverley Shire Australia, especially when one considers Qeraldton Retail Traders Association our financial and manpower situation. Sixty members of a Farmers' Union Regarding the manpower situation, in a branch recent issue of The Sunday Times there Two private individuals of Wagin. appeared reference to the ever-growing A business proprietor in Geraldton rate of violence in Western Australian A resident of Manjimup. towns and cities. The figures for murder were up 60 per cent., from 10 to 16. Those The last mentioned communication is in- for attempted murder up 110 per cent., teresting. It states, "I see no obvious ad- from four to nine. The figures for man- vantages in police traffic takeover." To slaughter were up 100 per cent., from four continue with the list of communications to eight, and those for serious assault were I have received- up 63 per cent., from 96 to 157. The figures Duxnbleyung Shire for rape were up 120 per cent., from 15 to Narrogin Shire 33; and those for robbery with violence Brooraehill Shire were up 44 per cent., 76 to 112. Cuballing Shire It seems quite obvious that our man- Onowangerup Shire power resources in the Police Department West Arthur Shire are taxed to the limit at the present time, A private individual of Wagin without the imposition of the additional Shire Clerk of Corrigin burden of the absolute control of traffic in Donnybrook Shire Kalamunda Shire country areas. Woodanilling Shire The Bill now before us will pro- Wagin Shire vide for the incorporation of some of A gentleman from Katanning the existing traffic inspectors in the Police A lady from Katanning Force, but a large number will be excluded. Oarnamah Shire. Mr. Dans said he was not opposed to the So, we can see that a large percentage of setting up of another authority, but we the electors in the country areas are have to realise that we would require time opposed to the measure; and this is also to effect a takeover because we would need one of my reasons for opposing it. to consider the question of working out My main reason for opposing it is that the seniority of the officers affected. I think at the present time we have in the many of the traffic inspectors would be country areas the foundation of an excell- inducted into the Police Force but ent system of traffic control. In some what will their position be with regard to country districts, particularly In my elec- seniority? Perhaps this is something which torate, we find a Joint system of traffic the unions could look at. Many Inspectors control. By that I mean the country traffic have had long experience in traffic matters inspectors act with the co-operation of the and I think it would be a poor situation if, police. I must point out that they have overnight, they were inducted into the received full co-operation from the police, Police Force on a junior constable's wage. and they have worked very well together The Hon. N. McNeill: They also have to in the area that I represent. be under 45 years of age. 2926 2926COUNCIL.)

The Hon. S. T. J. THOMPSON: Yes, Because of the high death rate they also have to be under 45 years of age. among teenagers, who could drink and A comment in the Minister's second drive legally when they were 18, his reading speech rather bears out my idea department's experts were studying the that the system of joint control which we suggestions of training programmes for now have young drivers and the fitting of gov- in Western Australia is not such ernors to their cars to a bad one after all. The Minister did not prevent them intend to imply this but he referred from going fast. to the fact that New Zealand has Although we are the only State which does a rather good scheme. He went on to say not have a single traffic authority it is ap- that, in fact, there was not a single traffic parent that the same problem exists authority in New Zealand because apart throughout Australia. Another newspaper from the Transport Department there is a article to which I will refer was published good deal of police involvement, as well as on the 26th August, 1972. It is a notice the power vested In 17? local authorities. regarding the licensing of es-country The Minister said that, in point of fact. vehicles, and it sets out the various places there is no single traffic authority in New at which the vehicles can be licensed. Zealand. He said there are many probable However, the advertisement omits to state reasons for the favourable road accident the days on which inspections can be situation in New Zealand. carried out. Perhaps the reason for the favourable I1 was ratter shocked to find that the situation is the fragmentation of control- hours during which vehicles can be licensed the Joint system of control, which I1 am at the Lake Grace traffic office are be- advocating now for our country areas. I tween 9.00 a.m. and 12 noon and between feel that this would be the quickest and 2.30 p.m. and 3.30 p.m. on Tuesdays and easiest way to achieve what we desire. I Thursdays, woud not like to be too optimistic of the The Hon. L. A. Logan: That area is results at this stage, under police control. An article appeared in yesterday's Press The Hon. S. T. J. THOMPSON: Yes. I as follows:- think the advertisement to which I have just referred should have included the CONCERN OVER hours during which vehicles could be CAR 'ADDICTION' examined. It is quite obvious that many MELBOURNE, Sunday-The Minis- people will be disappointed when they ter for Shipping and Transport, Mr. turn up at the office to register their Nixon, said today that Australians had vehicles. to get rid of their drug-like addiction The Hon. C. Rt. Abbey: That is the to cars. present position. It could change for the Though everyone was making a con- worse. scious effort to reduce the road toll, The Hon. S. T. J. THOMPSON: I hope People would still be killed on Aus- it does not change for the worse because tralia's roads. conditions are tough enough already in a I want to emphasise that point- place like Lake Grace. .. people would still be killed on Aus- I received a very interesting traffic tralia's roads. summary from the Shire of Swan, portion To continue- of which I propose to read to the House. I will not read all of it because it is a "An accident can happen to anyone rather lengthy soreed. It is as follows:- anywhere at any time," he said. "The only sure way in which it can't happen 1.1 Traffic Road Patrol Staff. A is to leave your car in the garage. total of 101 full time uniformed Traffic Inspectors are employed by country "The road toll Is one of man's great- Local Authorities in road Patrol duties est social problems of the 20th Cen- whereas 113 Police Patrol Officers are tury. it will be changed only by attached to the Road Patrol Section human action. of the Police Traffic Branch. "Everyone has his role to play, even if it is to walk to the shop instead of The Minister for Police has advised us taking the car." that the Police Department will be in- Mr. Nixon said that cars were safer creased by an estimated 129 officers. To now than five years ago but a combi- continue- nation of ego, frustration, tension and 1.2 The effective road patrol time of alcohol caused accidents. the Country Traffic Inspector is approx 60% after allowing for General It would appear I am not the only one who Court appearances, escort duties, at- thinks alcohol is the cause of many acci- tendanice at traffic accidents and dents. To continue- office reports. The effective road The young driver was another prob- patrol time for a Police Patrol Officer lem. was 39.94% during the 1969170 [Tuesday, 5 September, 1972] 292792

financial year. (a rise of 5% on the The Hon. S. T. J. THOMPSON: Yes, I previous 68169 year. This 501 in- agree; they are very trivial. crease is the result of the introduction of Traffic Infringement Notices) The manpower which is now available could be used to far greater advantage The Hon. R, F. Claughton: Is the hon- than is the ease now. The Minister, by way ourable member aware that Mr. Heitman of an interjection, said that there was no arranged for the submission from the difficulty in getting recruits for the Police Shire of Swan to be incorporated in Man- Force. I believe that a significant number sard? of resignations have been lodged and 1 The Hon. S. T. J. THOMPSON: If that would like the Minister to comment on is so, I will not read all of the resignations when he replies, because the submission. if we have no difficulty in obtaining An interesting portion is that which refers recruits, it is hard to understand why so to expenditure. It is as follows:- many of the police stations are under- 7.1 Traffic Control Expenditure. staffed. There is a shortage of officer who During the 1969-70 financial year Local can be used for replacement purposes. It Government Authorities in the coun- i s just not possible to replace a man who try contributed $841,413 towards happens to go on leave, or who is trans- Traffic Control (Salaries, Wages, ferred from one area to another. There vehicle running and replacement costs does not appear to be the men available etc. Figures taken from Annual re- to fill the positions that exist at the turns of all Country Municipalities, moment. presently carrying out the function of I would point out that in my area there Traffic Control and held by Local would be a shortage of Police officers Government Department) . -I am now talking about those who should That is particularly interesting because the be spread over the various districts. It is Minister for Police has stated that the for these reasons, added to which is the cost of the takeover, on a State-wide basis, saving of expenditure and finance gene- would be $591,990-not including housing rally, that I honestly believe we would -and the estimated annual running cost have a better system of control by allow- would be $689,500. It can be seen that the ing the present system to continue and whole operation could be carried out much improving it. cheaper under joint control and co- operation, and that is what I am advoca- I realise and appreciate there are some ting for country areas. who are hostile towards traffic inspectors because of convictions they might have One member in this House made play suffered. When a person is stopped by a of the nonexamination of vehicles before traffic inspector It tends to annoy that licensing. However, the situation is very person: people do not like being pulled up much the same in the metropolitan area after having passed over those nasty strips once the first license has been issued. We across the road. I think it was Mr. Mac- passed legislation a few years ago dealing Kinnon who said that these are generally with this particular matter but nothing placed only in the most difficult spots. It much has eventuated as yet. To my Is amazing, however, how these strips can knowledge, no attempt has been made to be left at the same spot for a considerable implement the provisions of that legislation time and yet continue to trap people who and perhaps that is because of the cost of may be speeding. setting up inspection centres. By the same token, it is possible that we The matter of the inspection of vehicles do have some traffic inspectors who are is rather a sore point in country areas, and inclined to be difficult, hut the opposite much play has been made of the number would also apply, and there is little doubt of vehicles which have been rejected by that some policemen could also be difficult. the police. There has been little mention This is very natural where one has to con- of the trivial nature of the faults which tend with the human element. It does not have been found. The faults have been matter what legislation we Introduce, this minor-a cracked glass in a tail-light, a problem will continue. side light not working, and so on. I return to my main point. If we are With all due respect I would like to say to do something about reducing the that the so-called unroadworthy vehicles road toll, we must do something about im- used in the country areas are very seldom proving our roads. That is the first essen- involved in accidents. I ask: How often is tial. With those few remarks I support a farmer's truck involved in an accident? the Bill. It is the farmers' trucks which are usually the hardest hit when examined by the THE HON. I. G. MED CALF (Metropoli- police when there is a takeover of traffic. tan) [5.18 p.m.]: I have not had the ad- However, very rarely is one of those vantage of having received a large num- vehicles involved in an accident. Too much ber of telegrams as has Mr. Syd Thomp- emphasis is placed on this point. sorn. None of the local authorities in the The Hon. L, A. Logan: They are very electorate I represent have seen fit to send trivial matters. me telegrams on this subject. I daresay 2928 2928COUNCIL.) this is because they are in the metropoli- authorities. Generally speaking the Couin- tan area and-they are not quite so con- try Shires Councils' Association favours the cerned as are the country shire councils creation of a separate authority. as to 'what will emerge from this Bill, in The Hon. L. A. Logan: That is not nec- fact I have only had one communication essarily so. from any member of the public during the The Hon. V. J. Ferry: The Country Passage of this legislation. Shires Councils' Association favours. a That, however, does not in any way separate authority. derogate from the seriousness of the mea- The Hon. I. 0. MEDCALP: That Is the sure so far as some of the people who body to which I was referring. I, person- may be affected by it are concerned. I ally, favour the creation of a separate am now referring to traffic Inspectors authority for the entire State and not from some local authorities who may find just for the country areas. I believe It their jobs and futures are prejudiced as should take over the traffic control in the a result of the action which may flow from metropolitan area; and I believe it will. I this Bill, I say this because of the sugges- feel this is an inevitable step which will tion that men over 45 will not be employed be forced upon the Government of West- by the Police Department and also be- ern Australia no matter what its political cause of the fact that their superannua- colour may be; because it seems to me to tion and other items of pay and remuner- be quite essential that there should be ation would not in any way be identical some standardised procedure which applies with those which they enjoy at present. throughout the entire State; some stand- This is a very serious matter for a fam- ardised procedures in respect of registra- ily man in a country town; one who might tion, licensing, traffic control, organisation, have given long and faithful service to a and what mnay be called interception and local authority. Not only Is It a serious the enforcement of traffic control- matter for such a man, but it is a serious We have examples in Western Australia matter for all of us, because I do not of local authorities who have used traffic think we want to be party to an Act which control purely as a means to obtain revenue. will result in persons having their future This, of course, is a most deplorable situa- Jeoipardised for reasons not attributable to tion, It is quite deplorable to think that them. any local authority will so prostitute the But although this may be important to duties entrusted to it that it will use the people concerned, and to all of us, in traffic control for the purpose of obtaining a sense this is a side issue of the Bill. I revenue. admit it is an important side issue, but The Hon. L. A. Logan: None of them nevertheless it Is a side issue. has done that. After having listened attentively to the The Hon. L. G. MEDCALF: They have. comments made by members-and I must The Hon. L. A. Logan: They have not. be one of the last members to speak to The H-on. 1. 0. M2EDCALF: They have. this Bill-I have been impressed by the As I was saying to you, Mr. President, fact that the members who have spoken there are occasions of which I know where appear to believe that a separate traffic local authorities have used traffic control authority is a better solution to this prob- for the purpose of obtaining revenue. I can lem. quote examples where this has occurred. Mr. Syd Thompson who has just spoken The Hon. L. A. Logan: Well, quote them. has indicated, as have other speakers, that The Hon. I. 0. MEDCALF: I will quote he favours the retention of the present them to the honourable member privately system; that is to say, he believes the because I believe this is a side issue and I present system as administered by local do not want to be sidetracked. authorities is an equally desirable system as that suggested by the Minister. I cer- The Hon. L. A. Logan: Quote them now. tainly gained that impression from listen- The PRESIDENT: Order! ing to Mr. Syd Thompson in combination The Hon. I, 0. MEDCALF: Thank you, with other speakers. The suggestion they Sir. As I was saying, the main issue make is not for a separate traffic authority is whether the police or a separate at all, but for a system whereby the police independent traffic authority should con- operate in respect of the metropolitan trol traffic throughout the State. To mue area, arid, apart from those local author- that appears to be the main Issue. ities who elect to transfer their authority I come down firmly on the side of having to the police, the remaining local author- a separate traffic authority because I ities operate and accept responsibility in believe the police at present are seriously respect of their Particular areas. overworked. I was interested in the com- I gather there are few members who mients. made by Mr. Syd Thompson 'when agree that the present system should re- be quoted the figures concerning the in- main absolutely unchanged. As I under- crease in crimes of violence; those of man- stand it that does not appear to be the slaughter and of other crimes that hava view of the majority of the country local occurred recently. [Tuesday, 5 September, 19721 222929

I know from my own knowledge that it degree that the ordinary and proper crime Is becoming very diffcult for the Police detection of the Police Force will be Force successfully to Investigate not only affected. the major crimes of which the bonourable As 1 have said, at the moment the Police member spoke but also many of the minor 'Force Is under Increasing pressure from and petty crimes that occur in our com- criminal elements, and as the years go by munity. we will find the men will have their work I know a number of offences that cut out trying to keep up 'with the crime have been reported to the police over the rate and other offences which occur and past few years, in respect of which they which they are required to investigate and have been unable to apprehend the offen- solve. ders. I say that without in any way attempting to criticise the Police Force It is not enough to merely Investigate a at all; indeed, I greatly admire the manner crime: it must be solved. We all know that In which the police go about their work: there are a great many crimes which are I admire their capability but there is little unsolved: there are hundred and hundreds doubt they are seriously overworked; and of such crimes in our community. I say if we are told the true story by the Press, this without in any way meaning to re- and the media generally, and by commen- flect on the ability of the Police Force. tators, concerning crimes that occur in our I want to make it clear to the Minister community being on the increase, I think It that what I say is no reflection whatever is true that the police will have more and on his department or on the Police Force more difficulty and will be under greater which I believe does a very fine job under pressure to perform their tasks with every most difficult circumstances. But I would day that passes. not want to see the force overburdened or I do not believe it is reasonable to give loaded down with work in the future. the police more tasks: tasks which are For that reason alone I feel this is essen- not really the concern of the Police Force tial; that the Police Force itself will find at all. I now refer to traffic control which it necessary to have a separate authority is probably not a proper task for the established. For those reasons I am afraid Police Force. I cannot support the Bill as it stands at I am aware of the fact that the police the moment, unless the Minister is able should be available in areas where elements to indicate in some manner that he himn- of crime exist in traffic accidents. I know self proposes to establish a separate the Minister is aware of the burglaries and authority. violent crimes that occur in connection I cannot really expect the Minister to with traffic matters-same of which are not say he will do that because I am aware yet solved-where it may be desirable for that he takes his Instructions from Cab- the police to take some action. There is inet and it would be too much for me to no reason at all why they should not. ask him to say that. However, if the Min- My friend, Mr. Williams, said this when ister suggested that a separate authority talking to the Bill: and I too believe that would be estabjished, then I would be de- the police can quite easily make it their lighted and I would immediately give my business as a crime detection force to come support to the Bill. in where there is a criminal element I have looked at this measure carefully involved. I do not believe that crime to see whether it is capable of amend- detection will suffer in any way. ment in some way. I believe it is capable I feel, however, it Is important that we of a-mendment but only in such aLway that do not overload the Police Force and give a further Act would have to be passed in it more work than it can conveniently order to implement the provisions of the handle, and I think this Is the tendency BiUl. I believe this is undesirable for two in the Bill; that the Police will flow be reasons. The first is that we, as legislators. asked to perform more duties than they should try to amend Sills in a meaningful have ever performed in the past; that way so that the amended legislation will they will have to make more use of their be coherent and capable of being under- already depleted manpower. stood by everyone. The second reason is that I believe we would end up confusing it is possible the force may be able to the public because they have not examined recruit mare People in the lower echelons, this legislation as carefully as have the, but It will have to make use of the man- many members who have spoken to the power in the higher echelons when handl- debate in this House. I want to make It ing thle matters to which I have referred clear that most members who have spoken and, accordingly, the force will be disad- to the debate have been more closely asso- vantaged by having to carry out these ciated with this Issue than I because the additional tasks. country authorities will be the ones TIknow it is quite easy for us to talk affec ted by the legislation. For these rea- about increasing the number in the Police sons I believe it is undesirable for us to Force, but the control eventually comes attempt to amend the Bill. This is un- back to the few at the top who will be fortunate because, if it were Possible to burdened with work to such an increasing amend the measure decently and cleanly. 2930 230[COUNCIL.]

in such a way as to make It clear that we with some local authority, or for do not wish to burden the Police Force some other reason, from rejoin- further but that we intend to set up an ing the Police Force? independent group, branch, department, or authority which would administer traffic (2) If not, whet are the reasons for throughout the State, then.1 would be the his being unable to rejoin? first to Propose such an amendment. The Minister said that I had given him notice of the question but I had couched Par those reasons I cannot support the the question in terms different from my Bill as it stands. I shall be interested to written note of the previous evening. He hear the Minister's comments in reply. then proceeded to answer the question I had asked him on the Wednesday night; THE HON. A. F. GRIFFITH (North and in doing so he anticipated the Metropolitan-Leader of the Opposition) reason for my question and answered it [5.32 p.m.]: The importance of this Hill in that way. I then attempted to say can be measured by the number of mem- how much I appreciated the fact that he bers in this Chamber who have taken was able to see through what I was asking part in the debate. Mr, Medesif was him when it did not really matter whether probably the 22nd or 23rd member to he saw through it or not. From my read- speak and the debate has even brought ing of Hansard, I realised that I couched some of the usually more silent members my further question without notice very to their feet. clumsily. I was then stopped by you, It is not my intention to rehash every- Mr. President, and I now find that the thing that has been said. It is as clear final remark I made that afternoon could as a pikestaff that although we seem to have been taken as being disrespectful to be a long way apart in words, we may not the Chair. For that I would like to be so far apart in fact if we consider the apologise. I do not make it a practice remarks made by the Minister and some to be disrespectful to the Chair and I am of the members on the Government side sorry for my remark, but I was a little upset. The Minister was trying to lead of the House. me along by saying I did not ask the It is clear that the Liberal Party question that way and he then gave Me favours. the setting up of an in- what I referred to as a "Dorothy Dix" dependent authority. As Mr. Medcalf said, answer to the question that I did not ask. it must be stated clearly that this opinion This afternoon I asked the Minister for is expressed without casting any aspersions Police another question without notice and on the Pollee Force. in fact, Mr. Presi- I am grateful to him for his answer. The dent, you have heard me stand up in this question asked whether the Government House to defend the Police Force of West- intended to accede to the request by the ern Australia. I have been Joined in this Australian Labor Party for an inquiry into defence by the Minister for Police because the Police Force. It was a straightout the Pollee Force means law and order in question but its purpose was anticipated the community. and the answer was in the form of an Before I proceed further with my re- excuse rather than a direct answer. I Marks on the Bill, I would like to return asked- to the proceedings of the House on Wed- Has a decision been made on the nesday, the 23rd August. On Tuesday request from the Australian Labor evening, the 22nd August, r scribbled out Party seeking an inquiry into certain a question which I handed to the Minister conditions prevailing in the Western for Police as the House adjourned. I Australian Police Force? asked him whether he would be good And the Minister decided to answer in the enough to answer the question which I following terms:- intended to ask without notice the follow- A request for an inquiry to be con- ing day. He took the piece of paper upon strued as a genuine objective approach which I had scribbled the question and aimed at improving job satisfaction on the 23rd August I rose in my place and and making it more attractive to re- I restated from memory the question I cruits and not to be taken as an attack had written out. I asked- upon the Police Force, was received I gave the Minister for Police notice from the State Executive of the Aus- of this question yesterday evening. tralian Labor Party and a decision has * It arises from the debate that took been made thereon by the Govern- place last night on the Traffic Act ment. Amendment Bill (No. 2). 1 will put I did not want to know that; I wanted to my question in simple terms, as fol- know whether the Government intended lows- to succumb to the pressure put on it by * (1) Can he tell me whether there is the A.L.P. for an inquiry into the Police anything to prevent an officer, Force. who was employed in the Police The Hon. J, D~olan: I thought the House Force and who resigned to be- should know what the actual request was come either a traffic inspector from the A.L.P, [Tuesday, 5 September, 19721 293193

The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: The Minister The Hon. D. K. Dans: I hope I did not did not tell us the actual request. forget. The Hon. J. Dolan: It is in the beginning The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: That is as of the answer. near as we ever got to it. The Hon. A. F. GRIFFIT: The Minister The Hon. V. J. Ferry; He must have lost did not tell us what the request was. the note. The Hon. J. Dolan: I told you that. The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: To the best The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: The Minister of my recollection the honourable member did not tell us what the request was. I did forget. I am sure he did not forget presumed that the answer to my question purposely, but nevertheless he did for- would be "AYes" or "No." However, the get. Minister stated that after he had looked into the matter and submitted it to The Hon. Clive Griffiths: Perhaps he Cabinet, Cabinet decided it was not neces- could tell you now by way of interjection. sary to have an inquiry. I am very pleased The PRESWENT: Order! indeed with that decision. This is the second time that the Minister has foiled an The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: Interjections approach by the A.L.P. for an Inquiry into are very unruly, as you would tell us Mr. the Police Force, and I am very happy PrTesident. Mr. Dana is a mant of common about it. sense, and he knows that whether trafflo I would have been very displeased if is controlled by a separate authority or by Cabinet had decided to instigate an in- the Police Force, the takeover cannot be quiry because it would be an inopportune achieved overnight-in fact, it will take time with the Proposed pollee takeover of some time. traffic. I mention this because the answer Mr. Deliar made his contribution to the I received today is in keeping with the debate and he indicated his intention of answer given on Wednesday, the 23rd supporting the Bill. He then said- August. The debate on this legislation has I feel compelled to state that the remarks been very Interesting. I have observed I intend to make during this debate are in that the Liberal Party does have a no way affected or activated by the com- policy which it did not have before. ments. of a traffic inspector or policeman about my behaviour on the roads. These I am sorry that the honourable member men, whether they be traffic inspectors was not told this before, but he could not employed by the local authorities or police- be expected to know all our policies. How- men, have a Job to do. In my experience ever, we did have a policy and we have they do their Job very efficiently. I amn reaffirmed that policy. In 1971 we stated not persuaded one way or another on this that traffic should be controlled by one issue because I am in the bad books of central authority. some traffic officer or policeman. To.-the Then, I think the last honourable mem- best of my knowledge I am in nobody's ber on the Government side who had some- bad books at the present time. thing to say was Mr. Leeson, and among I favour, as does Mr. Medealt, total con- his remarks he said this,- trol of traffic by a separate authority. I The final point I want to make is repeat my earlier remarks: I do not think that at this stage I oppose the setting we are very far away from this. I feel up of a separate statutory authority. that some members on the Government So we can believe that at some other stage side who spoke to this Bill are not very far the honourable member will not be opposed away from this line of thought. Mr. Dans to the setting up of a separate statutory commenced his speech with these words- authority to control traffic. Mr. Leeson I rise to support the Bill, but I do continued as follows:- so with mixed feelings. I certainly My reason, firstly, is because of the believe that at some stage this State cost involved. should have a separate traffic author- I wilt stop my quotation at that point. ity, but we are not considering that Last year I asked the Minister a question as aspect tonight. to what costs would be involved. Somewhat I asked him how long he thought that will trenchantly he bad taken a local shire rep- be and he replied- resentative to task for something which, in Give me time to come to that and I the opinion of the Minister, was ridiculous will tell the leader of the Opposition and completely irresponsible. I am now re- in due course. ferring to an article which appeared in The West Australian of the 24th July, 1971. I then said- when a Mr. N. E. King said that in seek- You will not forget to tell me before ing to take over control of traffic, there YOU sit down? was nothing further from the Govern- And Mr. Dana replied- ment's thoughts than the saving of lives, No. Do not worry about that. I have Mr. King also said that the Government made a note of it.. wanted to increase Its revenue. [COUNCIL.] The Minister became irate over this (2) Costs include staff, buildings, statement, and in the same article he was motor vehicles, radio and traf- reported to have said- fic control equipment, but do This is a completely irresponsible not include the cost of pro- statement. It is ridiculous to suggest viding additional housing that the Government would Put which cannot be estimated at revenue before the saving of lives. this stage. We are not going to make money I have no quarrel with that. But, Mr. out of this-It's going to be an ex- President, do you not think that, in a Pensive proposition. speech composed of 38 half-foolscap pages, the the Minister would have given the House Alter reading that article, I asked some Indication of what the cost to the Minister the following question- State would be If the police were to take In view of the statement reported to over traffic control in country areas? have been made by him in The West Australian dated the 24th July, 1971, The Hon. J. Dalan: That is not the only concerning the proposed takeover by answer to a question in which I gave the Police of the control of traffic in figures, Members can find such informa- which he said "We are not going to tion for themselves from previous answers make money out of this-it's going to to questions I have given. be an expensive proposition"- The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: Does the (1) What does the Minister consider Minister mean to tell me that when he the additional annual cost to the introduces a Bill, the purpose of which is State will be? arbitrarily to take over the control of (2) Could he enlarge generally on the traffic from local authorities and place it statement "it's going to be an under the control of the police, that expensive proposition"? members can find Information for them- To that question I received a typical selves? Minister for Police reply. The Hon. J. Dolan: I always did. The Hon. J. Dolan: I think a Minister The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: Did the has the right to answer a question in the Minister? way he thinks it should be answered. The H-on. J. Dolan: Yes. The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: I did not say that the Minister had not done so. The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: When the are insinuating Minister has a little spare time I1 would The Hon. J. Dolan: You like to go through two or three Hansards that. with him to show him that when I sat The Hon. A. P. GRIFFITH: No, I am where he is now sitting and the Minister not. sat on this side of the H-ouse, the Minister The Hon. J. Dolan: Oh yes, you are! for Police even used to tell me how to spell. The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: I am simply The Hon. J. Dolan: Will you be quite referring to the way the Minister answers honest and say who is correct; you or I? a question. Be perfectly honest about it. The Hon. J. Dolan: I do not mind. The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: I have The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: I do not always found that, In the opinion of the mind how the Minister answers the ques- Minister, he is always correct, tion. I have found that when the Minister The Hon. 3. Dolan: I do not say that at wants to say "Yes" or "No" he does so, but when he wants to say something else he all. does that, too. The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: The point I The Hon. am trying to make here is that in a matter J. Dolan: As you used to do. of such great importance to the State The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: Yes, as I would it not have been reasonable for the used to do. In his reply, the Minister said- Minister, uninvited, to have told the mem- As the I-on. Mr. GJriffith is well bers of the House what the police takeover aware, the passage which he quoted of traffic control in country areas was going was part of a statement which I made, to cost the State? Would that have been criticising completely irresponsible unreasonable? allegations by the President of the The Hon. J. Dolan: I do not know. You Wickepin Shire as to the Government's have queried so many things in that state- motives in seeking to take over the ment. You have referred to those things control of traffic in country areas. I would not have even dreamed of. I am 1 was aware of that. Then the Minister not went on to say- a seer. The answers to the questions are- The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: The Minister Estimated additional costs of traf- is not a what? fic control on a State-wide basis- The Hon. 3. Dolan: A s-e-e-r. (1) Establishment costs (exclus- The Hon. A. F. GRIFFIH: My wife ive of housing) -$59 1,990. often tells me that quite often I do not Annual running costs- always hear what she says, and I just $689,500. wanted to make sure of what the Minister [Tuesday, 5 September, 1972] 293393 said and, once again, he spelt the word for trol of traffic to the police. Mr. Logan me. In my opinion I think It would have interjected at this point by saying that the been reasonable for the Minister to give council was going to change that. the House the information we sought. one The Hon. L. A. Logan: I said that the can look through the speeches of Ministers in this House when they have introduced council was going to change its decision. many Bills aflecting the expenditure of the The Hon. A. F, GRIFFITH: I thank the State and one will find details of what the honourable member. In reply to that cost of a particular proposition will be. but interjection the Minister said, "That is I could not find any details of expenditure what you think." At least, I think that is in this Bill. So I think it would not have what he said. I made a few inquiries about been unreasonable for the State or the this and I found that the Northam Town Government to Justify, on a question of Council had met on the 8th August and expenditure, what effect the Bill would decided to hand over the control of traffic have on the public purse, but we did not to the police. The council wrote to the get that information. So I will have to Minister's office acquainting him of this leave it at that. decision on the 9th August. 1 understand The Hon. J. Dolan: If you can be patient that some officer in the Minister's office I will tell you in my reply now that yqu telephoned the council to find out what its have asked me. decision was, and the official order was signed by the Minister on the 18th August. The PRESIDENT: Order! I am not certain of the date, but if mem- The Hon. A. F. GRIFFTH: If this is the bers will look at the Government Gazette way we have to extract information from of the 25th August they will find the order the Government, in the future I will have there. I am not suggesting there is any- to be prepared to use extractors and to thing wrong with this. plead with the Government to tell us this, that, or the other concerning the legisla- The Hon. J. Dolan: I will tell you about tion it brings forward. All through the it afterwards. debate on this Bill the Minister has re- The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: The Minister frained from interjecting, but as soon as will tell mue about it? I rise in my seat he cannot refrain from doing so. The Hon. G. C, MacKinnon: I thought You started it. the Leader of the Opposition was telling us The Hon. J. Dolan: about It. The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: There the Minister goes again! As soon as I start to The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: I was speak the minister just cannot help him- merely relating that I had wade some in- know why. quiries and ascertained one or two facts. self; I do not I do not want to be told about It. I com- The PRESIDENT: Order, please! The pliment the Minister on the speed at which Minister will please address his remarks to his office worked. The Northam Town the Chair. Council had another meeting on the 19th The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: Did the August, the day after the papers were Minister hear that? signed, if that date be correct, and I understand that the council did not alter The Hon. J. Dolan: The President was its decision, because there were insufficient speaking to the Leader of the Opposition. votes to effect this. I merely mention that The lion. A. F. GRIFFITH: What the in passing. President said was that if the Minister Mr. Medealf, when speaking, said that addresses his remarks to the Chair I can he had not received a great deal in the get on with what I want to say. way of communications from shires or The Hon. J. Dolan* He was speaking to from people. I cannot say the same. I YOU. must say that up till about 10 days ago The Hon. A. P. GRIFFITH: It will not I had received little or no communication. be long before I am back where the Minis- I had certainly received a letter from the ter is sitting, but I do not want to hurry Swan Shire which indicated to me the it that much. A little good humour does approach that had been made to the Mini- not hurt on occasions. We do not lose ister when he had been asked to con- sight of the important aspects of the mat- sider the matter from the point of view of ter we are discussing and it does no the Country Shire Councils' Association, harm to have a little bit of humour on and one or two members have referred occasions. However, I make the Point that to this letter, but the Minister's attitude up till now members are unaware of what was indicated in his reply to the Swan it will cost the State for the police to take Shire, when he said- over the control of traffic in country areas. As the appropriate Minister it is Some days ago when, I think, Mr. Heit- my obligation to carry out the G~ov- man was speaking, mention was made of ernment's Policy as indicated. The the fact that the Northam Town Council 'take-over' plan has been prepared and had indicated it would hand over the con- when completed it will be implemented. 2934 2934COUNCIL.]

At present there is no necessity to The following telegram is from the debate the pros' and cons' of the Municipal Officers' Association of Aus- question. tralia, Western Australian Branch:- The only thing that was left out was the This Association is opposed to the full stop, but I can understand this. I proposed extension of police traffic think, as Mr. Medcalf has said, the Min- control into local government areas ister is following the policy laid down by and request your support in defeating the Government, but I have a feeling that this Bill Stop if the Bill happens to be defeated the The next one is from the Eneabba Pro- Minister will feel somewhat relieved. gress Association, and reads-- it is true that some local authorities We strongly disapprove of proposed have voluntarily handed the control of police takeover of country traffic. We traffic in their areas over to the police, support decentralisa tion but it is also true-I think probably as a Another is from the President of the result of one or two of my own colleagues Country Regional Councils, while the fol- indicating some qualified support for the lowing is from the Shire Clerk of the legislation-that shires, organisations. and Goomalling Shire Council:- people have started to communicate with Strongly opposed to police take- me, and whilst it is not my purpose to over of traffic control. bore members with all these details, I feel I have to bring to the notice of the House The President of the Institute of Highway and of the Minister, to some extent, the and Road Patrol Officers sent the following communications I have received. Why do telegram:- you smile, Mr. Dolan? Road patrol officers arc opposed to pollee control of traffic extension into The Hon. J. Dolan: I was just talking country local government areas. to the Leader of the House. The next one reads- The Hon. W. F. Willesee: He cannot Consider your action on traffic help smiling when he looks at me. takeover deplorable Stop Respectfully The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: I can under- suggest police control backwards step Stop Metro area accident rate not stand that. lesening... I want to bring these to the notice of the Minister because, after all, local gov- That telegram is addresed to "Hon. Arthur ernment is the voice of the people it rep- Griffiths. M.L.C.," and I think there was resents. I have heard it said in this a mistake in identity. Chamber that we members to whom people The Hon. Clive Griffiths: I do not think protest are their voice in the Parliament so. I think he is right on the ball. of the land, and that we make the law of The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: At that stage the land, and so these people have sent I had not spoken, but, like the Minister, communications to me, and what a pile had been intently listening to other mem- I have received! bers. One bundle comprises telegrams and The Hon. Clive Griffiths: It's funny. I letters from between 40 and 50 shire did not receive any telegrams. councils throughout the State asking me to The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: Another oppose the Bill before Parliament. telegram reads-- The Mon. D. K. Dans: Are they to oppose Have noted with regret your support the Bill or to set up a separate traffic of Labor's traffic Bill and sincerely authority? urge you to reconsider all arguments before taking this step. The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: The bon- ourable member himself can be the judge Another case of mistaken identity! of that when I have read some of the I have received from shires all over the telegrams. Would he pose his question place telegrams similar to those I read first. again? I do not think I should bore the House by The Hon. D. K. flans: Perhaps I should reading them all, but I would like to make rephrase the question. Are they sup- them available to the Minister if he wishes porting a separate authority or do they to see them. want to retain the status quo? The Hon. J. Dolan: I have read so many of them. The Hon, A. IF. GRIFFITH: I think it is fair to say that the honourable member The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: I have no can judge the situation from some of the doubt the Minister has, and he has turned However, I a cold shoulder on the whole jolly lot. communications I will read. The Hon. J. Dolan: I would not say that. have gathered that the message the local authorities desire to get through to me is The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: The Minis- that they are opposed to this Bill, and they ter has said to these people, "I am here seem to have stated that in quite clear to put Labor Party policy into effect," terms. and they have got the message. So they tTuesday, 5 September, 1972] 293593 are starting to communicate with me as As Local Government is the Govern- Leader of the Opposition in this House- menit closest to the people, its preser- perhaps as a last resort. If the Minister vation is of Paramount importance, has had the benefit of these messages and if one is to believe in decentralis- before, I am not surprised he does not ation, we must start with retaining want to see those I have received. power within the Local Government I received a letter from the Coorow structure. Coastal Ward Ratepayers Association in It has not yet been proved in the which similar views are expressed; and Shires where the police have already likewise a letter from the Northern Branch taken over the traffic, now have a of the Municipal Officers' Association, better type of traffic control, and that Similar letters were also received from the it has resulted in a decline in the Shire of Plantagenet and the institute of country road accident toll. Highway and Road Patrol Officers. They I would ask you to do everything in are all here. ,your Power to "STOP THE TRAFflC I have divided the letters and telegrams ACT AMENDMENT BILL", and make I have received into several bundles, and certain that the control remains In the one I have in my hand now contains the hands of LOCAL GOVERNMENT. letters and telegrams from private people, many of them traffic inspectors. One letter They arc obviously ronced sheets, and indicates that 150 employees of the Wan- have come from addresses all over the neroo Shire object to the police takeover State, including the metropolitan area. of traffic, and Wannerco is one of the few One comes from Three Springs. One or two areas which partly comes into my pro- have no address at all, but In the main vince. I just mention that in passing. This they are signed by individuals who appar- bundle includes a letter, dated the 1st ently desire to register with me that they September, which reads as follows- aie opposed to the Government's proposals We, the undersigned, seek your co- of takeover. In addition I have another operation and assistance in defeating letter which at the moment I am having a the Traffic Act Amendment Bill No. 2, little difficulty in locating. which is currently before the Legisla- Sitting suspended from 6.10 to 7.30 p. tive Council. Should this Bill be passed, we feel The Hon. A. P. GRIFFITH: Mr. Presi- that a grave injustice will have been dent, just prior to the suspension for tea perpetrated on the rural communities you assisted me very greatly by leaving the of this State.... Chair when 1 was trying to find a further communication from which to give the The letter has appended to it a large num- House some information. It is a long let- ber of signatures. ter and, because of this, I do not propose The final two groups of communication& to read it all. I1have the permission of the which I received were in the form of cop- person who wrote the letter to quote from ies of letters written by shires to the Shire it and that is what I propose to do. The of Swan which apparently has been fairly letter is from the South-West Regional active in its opposition to the Govern- Council of Western Australia and is signed ment's proposal. The Shire of Swan wrote by Percy C. Payne, President of that or- letters to those shires which had not -al- ganisation. Mr. Payne telephoned rne the ready been taken over by the police, and I other day and expressed his concern and have been provided with copies of the anxiety regarding the fate of this Bill. I replies which add to the opposition to the suggested that if he wished to convey any- Bill. thing to me concerning the Bill it would be bcst for him to do so by letter. I also This afternoon at quite a late hour I was told him that members of this House again given another bundle, which I have generally have very closely examined the not had an opportunity to count. This legislation and a great deal of argument morning I received a telephone call from both for and against has come from both the A.B.C. and I was asked whether I had sides. I said I would be pleased to hear received a petition from an organisation from him if he thought he had anything which calls Itself the Association for the which would be of use to us when con- Preservation of Local Government. I in- sidering the measure. dicated I had not. In fact it was the first Mr. Payne wrote under date the 4th I -knew of it. However, this afternoon I September, was given a and I propose to quote somne of bund!e of letters, each one the passages of his letter whichi is addressed signed by an individual. The text of the to me. It message Is- says- I am very concerned with the move Dear Sir. to pass through Parliament the "Traf- re' Traffic Control. fic Act Amendment Bill". This Bill is Further to our telephonic coniversa- another attempt to errode the powers tion In which I expressed anxiety re- of Local Government, and a further garding the fate of the 13ll1 on Traffic centralisation of those powers. control now before the House. 2936 2936COUNCIL.]

As you are doubtless aware the Bill As certain Local Authorities had is bitterly opposed by the Shire Coun- already handed traffic to the Police, cils' Association, the Country Town namely-Manjinup, Busselton, Mer- Councils' Association, The Regional redin, Esperance and Raveasthorpe, a Councils' Association of W.A. and all circular letter (copy of which is organisations interested In the future attached) was forwarded to the Local of Traffic Control in the major portion Authorities concerned. Attached of this State. herewith are the actual replies received The proposal before Parliament had in connection with the takeover in the its origin as part of the Labour Party's Shires concerned. political platform and as such received I think I can stop at that point. I have very little publicity or consideration by a copy of the replies mentioned which are Western Australians. in keeping with the sort of comments which When it became clear that the Gov- I have read out from other correspond- ernment intended to introduce legisla- ence that has been forwarded to me. The tion to implement their election rest of this letter talks of the Minister's promise extensive opposition was de- refusal to discuss with the association clared against the proposal. requirements regarding traffic. It also talks The Country Regional Councils' of the statement that the Government Association of W.A. made exhaustive appointed a committee of three to examine investigations into the suggestion now the New Zealand proposal which, Mr. before the House. At a meeting held Payne said, the Minister later refuted. Mr. In Perth on 30th April, 1972, convened Payne quotes Hansard page 1194 dated by the Association the present Minister the 3rd May, 1972, which apparently for Police and Traffic by invitation contains the Minister's refutation. I admit attended, as did representatives of the I have not examined that proposal but I Local Government Association and the think the Minisfer would remember that Country Shire Councils' Association. occasion, would he not? It was my privilege to present to that The Hon. J. Dolan: I1 think so. meeting a paper on the subject (a copy The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: I thought of which is enclosed). At the request the Minister would. Mr. Payne goes on in of the Country Shire Councils' Associ- his letter to talk about the New Zealand ation 150 copies of the paper were situation including the number of vehicles made available to them for distribution in that country and the number of people. to all Local Authorities in Western He also mentions the fact that New Zealand Australia. led the way, to some extent, with this sort The paper was read by me in the of thing. He then conjectures that a single presence of the Minister for Police and traffic authority in Western Australia Traffic at the meeting held on 30th would, upon establishment, produce a April, 1972. The Minister declined to acertain amount of revenue and he has given discuss the question of traffic control me certain figures. He suggests that the or matters arising from the paper. He total collected in license and transfer fees stated that as Minister he was duty in 197I1-72 was $10,380,095 and an bound to introduce a Bill for Police estimated $1,500,000 respectively. He also take over of traffic as he considered says that the amount collected in traffic the Government had a clear mandate fines was an estimated $1,100,000, making from the people on being elected to a total of $19,580,095. 1 cannot make any office to place traffic under Police con- comment upon the correctness of those trol. The Minister stated that a 3 figures. He goes on to say- man Government Committee had been Traffic control is one phase of trans- appointed to examine the New Zealand port that has received more than its system and when asked by me to name share of publicity over the past weeks. the personnel of the committee he re- It would appear transport by road, fused to comply with the request. The rail. air and sea are phases of trarns- Minister's statement is again the sub- port deserving very close attention by ject of Parliamentary questions. both the Government and Opposi- To ascertain the view of Local tion parties. Authorities on the proposed change He says more about New Zealand, but I over of Traffic control to the police, do not think I will read the rest of the some 60 Local Authorities were con- letter to the House. Suffice it to say that tacted. The Shires of Lake Grace, this letter from the President of the South- Merredin, Denmark and Victoria West Regional Council to my mind con- Plains advised they preferred a Police firms the opposition in country areas to takeover of traffic. A number sup- the Government's proposal which is now ported retention of control by Local before the House. Authorities. what am I to do in these circumstances, A big majority of the Local Authori- Mr. President? Am I to heed certain re- ties strongly and vigorously oppose marks, some of which are, "As the ap- take over of traffic control by the propriate Minister, it is my obligation to Police. carry out the Government's policy as [Tuesday, 5 September, 1972) 293B1 indicated. The takeover plan is being pre- As I said when I commenced to speak, it pared and when completed will be im- is safe to say that the Country Shire plemented. At present there is no necessity Council's Association were resting upon to debate the pros and cons of the ques- the fact that the Liberal Party has tion?" As I have said, am I to have regard a policy which it would put into for those remarks or am I to have regard effect at this point of time If It for the fact that my own party has a policy were the Government. However we are on this question and that it considers that, confronted with the fact that we must in the best interests of the whole of the deal with the Bill which is before us, As State, an independent authority is by far Mr. Dans said, that is what we have to the better proposition? Am I not to take deal with at the moment. into consideration the remarks made by the I would be encouraged-and I am sure Minister himself to the effect that he feels the people who are listening to me at the that one day this may be achieved? Mr. moment would be encouraged-if I could Cans feels that he will vote for the Bill hear from the Minister that the Govern- reluctantly and has the thought in mind ment would not resolutely pursue this that a separate traffic authority would be mandatory takeover, Mr. MacKinnon re- in the best interests of the country. Am I ferred to it as a callous takeover, and I to take notice of the amount of corres- am afraid that is what it is. I cannot pondence and appeals addressed to me in find any other expression which fits it the last 12 days on this question? The better. It Is a definite statement by the country local authorities are opposed to Minister that, "I the Government's Bill. Some 45 or 50 of am here to put into them-I am not quite sure of the number effect the Policy of my party." I think -have sent communications to me asking it would be correct to say that has been me to oppose the legislation. the attitude of the Government. Mr. Cans asked: What do the telegrams The People who are listening to me are contain? Do they offer outright opposition concerned and worried about their jobs, and objection to the legislation before us? and I suppose that Is a natural state of My answer is: They do. In the main they affairs. I do not blame them for being do not contain any alternative suggestion. worried about their jobs. Some of them Primarily they say, "Defeat the Bill." have told me they do not think they can As a matter of fact, Mr. Payne says in fit into the pattern. In spite of the answer one of his quotations that he feels the given by the Minister to the question in country shires are entitled to any pro- relation to re-employment, some of those tection which the Legislative Council can people do not think they will fit in and give them from the Government. That is others do want to fit in. one of his points of view. Be that as it may, and although I am The Hon. D. 1C. Cans: Did the previous sympathetic to a man who wants to pro- Government ever make any estimation of tect his own Interests by way of his the cost of a separate traffic authority? bread-earning Capacity, I do not think The H-on. A. F. GRIFFTH: Not to the that is necessarily the all-important fac- best of my knowledge. It is fair to say tor. Although at the present time section we did not do it as a Government.i I 11(a) of the Traffic Act Provides that could, perhaps, anticipate the Minister those people can go over by choice, they who may say that we did not do it when do not want to be told, "You shall go we had the opportunity. I admit we did over." I do not blame them for that, not, but there were reasons for this. The either. coalition was not at one on the question I will let the matter rest at that and at the time. merely sum up the situation as I see it. As late as this morning, between 10.00 The Minister has been very patient in and 11.00 a.m., in company with some of listening to this debate. I am quite sure my Liberal Party colleagues and some mem- he will be able to get uip tonight and bers of the Country Party I met delegates reply to the debate and to the remarks I from the Country Shires Association who have made. I am sure he has well im- reconfirmued their opposition. This, to planted in his mind what he intends to my way of thinking, entirely answers the say. I hope he will add some words of question for Mr. Dans and other members encouragement to the effect that the Gov- who may be interested. The Country ernment might relent and see its way clear told us they to do what the Country Shire Councils' Shire Councils' Association Association has almost pleaded with the were aware that something should be but they do not think this Bill is the done,ans- Government to do: that is, to introduce wer, because it arbitrarily takes over con- legislation providing for an independent trol of traffic, which they now have, and traffic authority. places it under police control. This is done There would be no harm in a Labor by one clause in a very short Bill. Further, Government seeing value in a principle they said that although they wanted to of the Liberal Party. I am Sure we recog- see the Bill defeated they also wanted to nise some Parts of the platform of the see the introduction of an independent Labor Party which are well-intended. The authority to control traffic, correspondence I have received in regard 2938 [COUNCIL)] to this matter from the representatives of THE HION. J. DOLAN (South-East Met- people in country districts-who are the ropolitan-Minister for Police) (8.52 p.m.]: voice of the people in country areas-- Before I commence my reply I would like amounts to a large file. They sent messages to make a few comments in regard to the to me, as the Leader Of the Opposition in remarks made by the Leader of the Oppo- this House, and asked that something be sition. He referred to a couple of questions done. I can do no more than appeal to he asked without notice. They were ques- the Minister to hear the views of these tions of a type which is very difficult to People and not say to them, as he has answer-one of those "Do you still beat done so far, "The door is shut; Labor your wife" questions. If I said, "Yes, I beat Party Policy is more important than what her every time; I play her euchre." You think about your own district." I hope he would be offended about the way I the door will be re-opened, that the Minis- answered and say I was begging the ques- ter will not proceed with this Bill, and tion. that he will persuade the Government to Today, the Leader of the Opposition introduce legislation to establish a State- asked whether an agreement had been wide traffic authority. He will then find made to hold an inquiry into the Police that members of the party to which I Force. The question was not put as belong will assist him, and I think mem- directly as that, and it would not be pos- bers of the Country Party will do likewise. sible to consider that as being the ques- In the meantime, we must stand opposed tion he really wanted to ask. If I varied it, to the Bill before the House for the rea- I feel it was my privilege to do so under sons I have given. The measure represents parliamentary practice. Members are a callous approach by a Government which quite entitled to ask questions at any says to People who do not want to have time, and the Minister is quite entitled to taken from them something which they answer them so that he conveys the mean- now have as a statutory right, "Whether ing which the questions really merit. you like it or not you will hand over the I commence by saying to the Minister- control You have to the Police Depart- The Hon. A. IF. Griffith: Whenever the pressure is on you refer to me as "the I do not know whether or not the police Minister." Why? can handle it. I do not think the Minister The Hon. J. DOLAN: Ilam sorry. It may would suggest to us that in a week or a be a long while before I make that mistake month or at any definite time the police again. could move in. He foreshadowed that more people would have to be employed; I think The Hon. A. F. Griffith: A week. the figure of 150 was mentioned. The The Hon. J. DOLAN: It does not matter recruitment of those people will take some what I say, it still offends the Leader of time. the Opposition. The Government sees fit to cast aside The Hon. A. F. Griffith: It does not the men employed by the Country Shire offend me. Councils' Association who have been per- The PRESIDENT: Order! forming their task for a long time. To the best of my knowledge they are performing The Hon. J. DOLAN: The other night, their task effectively. That has not been when the Leader of the Opposition was in contradicted, although a red herring has one of his benevolent moods, he said- been drawn across the trail to suggest the At this point, however, let me say police will handle it better and the death that in the last two or three days the rate on the roads will not be so great Minister has shown commendable when all traffic is controlled by the police. restraint. He has listened to many In his second reading speech the Minis- speeches on the subject of traffic- ter for Police asked, "W~ho will look after and of course there are still more to the Royal visit? Who looks after law and come-and he has refrained from in- order? Who does this and who does that?", terjecting. Having sat here and We now know it is the Police who do those watched him I felt sure he was dying things, and whatever the outcome of this to get stuck Into the debate that was Bill the police will still do them. Those ensuing. remarks were made Purely and simply to His words made me feel as poor old Lazarus Pad the speech and make the situation felt when the crumbs were dropping from sound better than it really is. the rich man's table. It is nice to receive a kind word now and then, and I say to I conclude my remarks by saying I am the Leader of the Opposition that I appre- not prepared to vote for this Bill and I ciate it. He also complained that I did not hope when the Minister replies he will give Put before the House all the costing asso- us some assurance that he will not pro- ciated with this Bill. ceed with it because he anticipates sup- The Hon. A. F. Griffith: You did not put port from this side in the event of his any. producing for the consideration of Parlia- ment legislation which would provide for The Hon. J. DOLAN: If the Leader of the the setting up of an independent traffic Opposition would be kind enough to listen, authority in Western Australia. I can remember when he introduced the [Tuesday, 5 September, 19721 232939

Traffic Act Amendment Bill (No. 2) in there were a terrific number of shibboleths. 1969, which allowed local authorities' Members can look that word up in the powers irn this regard to be taken over on Oxford Dictionary. a voluntary basis. He did not even tell the The Hon. G, C. MacKinnon: Are you H-ouse the basic object of the Bill. implying you are the only one who knows The Hon. A. F. Griffith: Did you ques- what it means? Don't be so conceited! tion it? The Hon. J. DOLAN: I am giving advice. The Hon. J. DOLAN: I did not. There I now refer to Mr. Logan's remark in was no need to do so because it was in connection with the Swan Shire. He in- line with part of our policy. sinuated that I was dictatorial. That, of course, is very far from the truth. a The Hon. G. C. MacKininon: You had The Hon. L. A. Logan: That is what duty, as the Opposition, to question it. they thought. The Hon. J. DOLAN: I had no duty The Hon. J. DOLAN: After I have told whatsoever to get up and question a Bill. the story, the honourable member will find The PRESIDENT: Order! I ask mem- the facts are not as he tried to present bers to refrain from interjecting, Members them. There must at some time be an have already paid a tribute to the Minister's end to discussions between the Minister silence while they spoke. I would now like and those who are opposed to a matter them to give him an opportunity to speak. of policy which is about to be Implemented. It may be thrown out; but that is neither The Hon, J. DOLAN: Thank you, Mr. here nor there. President. When Bills are discussed here it is not obligatory for every member of I received innumerable deputations, the House to get up and state his views one submissions, and letters from people way or another. If that were so, what sort associated with local government. This of a position would we have? We would went on for a considerable time and I never get any business done if every Bill found that the matter was occupying were debated by every member of the the greatest part of my working day-which House. was very often 16 or 17 hours. This Bill has been widely debated and I was invited to the quarterly meeting of there has been criticism about the length the Country Shire Councils' Association of my second reading speech and about held at the Rural and Industries Dank the fact that some things were omitted building on the 22nd April, 1971. I duly from that speech. That may be so, but no attended at the specified time-it was Minister can anticipate what points mem- 12.45 p.m.--so that I could speak to the bers will raise in debate on a Bill of this representatives of local government. Mr. nature. I1am not a seer; I cannot divine Payne has since referred to the fact that the future or anticipate what members will he read his sereed at that meeting. He did say. During the debate mention was made not read it whilst I was there; possibly of firearms and guns. I could not have he was at the tail end of it when I entered. anticipated that. Some members mentioned The President seated me alongside him at personalised Plates which was a worth- the table and explained to the meeting that while comment because they were trying I had been invited so that members could to line up this point with inefficiency as hear the position in regard to the takeover far as computerisation and so on is con- of traffic control. cerned. I told the meeting I had received in- Members raised many aspects and I numerable deputations, submissions, and hope I will not miss any of them in reply- letters on the matter and that I felt the ing. If I do miss any Points. I apologise in time had come for something to be done advance. If the member or members con- because we were getting nowhere by cerned would like to see me privately I debating the issue. The shire councils were will make up for what I missed. making submissions and I was making counter submissions and we had reached I think the members of the Opposition an impasse. It was rather like the case of have presented against this Particular the fellow who used to bump his head legislation one of the weakest cases I have against a wall. When he was asked why heard by comparison with the debates I he did it he said, "It is bonza when you have heard on other legislation. During stop doing it." We were simply debating my Period as a member here, there have the issue without reaching finality, and it never been so many contradictions in the did not appear likely that we would. I told course of debate. We heard one tonight the meeting that, as the responsible Min- when two members on the Opposition side ister, I had been told by the Government were arguing with one another as to that the legislation was to be introduced. I whether or not shires Used traffic control could have said, "Well, I feel it ought to as a means of raising revenue. I have continue as it is": but members know what never made a statement such as that. I would have happened had I said that. The have no intention of criticising the actions Government would simply have said. "We of traffic officers associated with the shires. will get someone who will introduce it Perhaps the most apt way to describe what because this is the policy of the Govern- has happened and what was said Is to say ment." 2940 (COUNCMLJ

The Hon. A. F. Griffith: I think You have The Hon. J. DOLAN: If the honourable made that abundantly clear. member cares to look in Hansard I doubt whether he will find he said that. I re- The Han. J. DOLAN: I am merely em- ceived notice that the Northam Town phasising it in case some have not heard it. Council was again to discuss the matter. and for the sake of the record. When I In the meantime pressure was applied to sat down after addressing the meeting the those who voted in favour of the original chairman thanked me for my frankness motion in an endeavour to get them to and said that I had cleared the air and change their minds. The result was that that the Country Shire Councils' Associa- when the rescission motion went to the tion knew exactly where it stood in the vote six councillors voted for it and six matter. Subsequently, when I wrote to the voted against it; so two councillors had Swan Shire Council I was merely repeating defected.' a summation of the words I used on that Whilst I may not have many good traits occasion. In my character, if I form an opinion when I introduced this legislation with certain a matter is debated I still bold that opinion aims. Firstly, I hoped to present the case the following week; and not all the urging for police control fairly and, if possible, nor all the lobbying in the world will make convincingly. Secondly I hoped the matter me change my mind. However, on the would be debated fully-at least that aim casting vote of the chairman of the Nor- has been accomplished. I even went to the them council it was decided to continue extent of assisting members of the Opposi- with Police takeover. Subsequently I re- tion to make their arguments clear during ceived a letter from the Secretary of thte the debate. For example, members may Country Shire Councils' Association thank- recall that Mr. McNeill had some difficulty ing me for withholding the gazettal of the in finding a copy of The Police News which notice. contained an article he wished to quote. He The Hon. A. F. Griffith: On what date mislaid his copy somewhere and, as I had did you signi the order? a copy, from the goodness of my heart I pushed the button and gave my copy to an The Hon. 3. DOLAN: The order was attendant to give to Mr. McNeill so that signed on the 18th August. It was sub- he could make his point. I had only one mitted last week for gazettal on the 25th desire: to make the position perfectly August-after the decision had been clear. If members opposite were missing reached and after the Secretary of the something and I was able to furnish them Country Shire Councils' Association had with it I was quite prepared to do so. informed me that it was all right to pro- ceed. Even the Leader of the Opposition men- tioned this in association with the takeover The Hon. A. F. Griffith: Wasn't the of traffic control from the Northam Town meeting held on the day after that-the Council. As members may know, at a 19th? meeting of that council a vote was taken The lion. J. DOLAN: The day after the as to whether or not traffic control should 18th is generally the 19th. As a matter be taken over by the police, and the vote of fact, the l8th is the day after the was eight to four in favour of takeover. An 17th. application was made to me, and the Criticism came from some quarters council stated that it wished its traffic regarding the size and contents of the Bill. control to be taken over as quickly as pos- The Hon. A. F. Griffith: You will get sible. That is why I acted so expeditiously nowhere by trying that sort of thing. and on the lath August I signed the notice What do which was to appear in the Government you think we are, gigs or some- Gazette. Before that notice appeared I thing? received a request from the Country Shire The Hon. J. DOLAN: The Leader of the Councils' Association to withhold the Pu- Opposition started it. blication of the notice because an attempt The Hon. A. F. Griffith: I did not. I was to take place in Northam to reverse the merely asked you a simple question. I original decison. That is where Mr. Logan asked whether the council held its meeting bought into it. on the 19th, but you wanted to get smart. The Hon. L. A. Logan: I said I had notice The Hon. J. DOLAN: Criticism came of a motion of rescission; I did not say from some quarters about the size and what it was going to be, contents of the Bill. It is, of course, a The Hon. J. DOLAN: The honourable small Hill. However, I would remind mem- member felt fairly confident about it. bers of this fact: when the voluntary The Ron. L. A. Logan: I did not. I just takeover Bill was introduced, it was in- said there was a notice of rescission. You troduced as an amendment to the Traffic state the truth. Act, along with other amendments. Yet it was almost exactly the same size as this The Han. J. DOLAN: I always do. Bill-within a line or two. The Leader The Hon. L. A. Logan: No you don't. of the Opposition introduced that Bill when You stick to the truth and look up what he was a Minister, and he did not say I said. I said a rescission motion had been one word about the takeover of traffic moved. on a voluntary basis. [Tuesday, 5 September, 1972] 294194

The Hon. A. F. Griffith: What has that if one likes to put it another way, the to do with this Bill? Government and Opposition parties- The Hon. J. DOLAN: The Bills are al- believe in a single traffic authority. Mr. most analogous. They both refer to the Ferry said that his party believes in a takeover of traffic, one on a voluntary basis traffic control authority. The main dif- and the other on a compulsory basis but ference is that the Government believes under the same conditions as the first. that the police should be that authority. The Hon. A. F. Griffith: The first con- I intend to comment on the various cerned voluntary relinquishment, and you speeches made during the debate, not know it. necessarily in the order they were made, so that we may be perfectly clear about The Hon. J. DOLAN: Of course I know the statements made by members speaking it. against the Proposition. Mr. Ferry said The Hon. A. F. Griffith: Then why call that the Country Shire Councils' Associa- it a takeover? What power is contained in tion is in complete accord and harmony section IIA to take over an authority that with the Proposal for a separate traffic does not want to be taken over? authority put forward by the Liberal The Ron. J. DOLAN: None whatsoever. Party. He said he felt it has been quite an achievement to get to this point. The Hon. A. F. Griffith: Then why say it is a takeover? I will say It Is an achilevement! I have before me a copy of the minutes of the The Hon. J. DOLAN: Because shires annual conference of the Country Shire asked to be taken over. Councils' Association held in Perth in the The Hon. A. F. Griffith: That is a re- Town Hall on the 20th July, 1971. At that linquishment of control, and not a take- meeting the Pressure started to go on to over. those councils which had surrendered traf- fIce control to the police. The following The Hon. J. DOLAN: All right; evidently motion was Presented:- we are going to split straws over the mean- That those Councils represented at ing. It is the same thing; although there this Conference which have not yet may be a slight difference in interpreta- handed over licensing and traffic con- tion. Evidently the size of the Bill led trol to the Police, affirm. that they Mr. Ferry and his leader to make certain are not Prepared to hand over their statements about regulations. Mr. Heitman traffic functions to either the Police and Mr. McNeill also fell into the same or any other Government Department. error. The Leader of the Opposition said In other words they were put on a spot. that because there are only two clauses in The atmosphere was Antarctic when the the Bill the administration of this amend- representatives of country shires got up to ment must be carried out through regula- express accord with the policy of police tions. Mr. Ferry said that his under- control of traffic. The first speaker-I sup- standing of the Bill was that it empowers Pose I can refer to him by name-was almost anything to be done by regulations. Councillor Scott, who moved the motion Other members subsequently bought into I have read out. He had quite a lot to say the issue. about what the n~revicus Government would Let us see what is the position. Of have done. !!e said- course, we find there is no question of In 1968 the Inter-departmental regulations associated with section 11A. Committee reported that all traffic If members care to look at the Traffic licensing and control should pass to Act they will find that certain sections- the Police. for example, section 32D3-refer to the We immediately argued against that Governor making regulations. We find that Proposal and submitted as a rejoinder there is power in the Act for regulations a suggestion for a State-wide authority to be made in connection with traffic other than the Police and under the infringements, and so on. However, there control of local government to co- is no reference to regulations being made ordinate traffic. . .. This was rejected in connection with section 11A, and there by the Government, which decided to is none intended. do nothing. The Hon. V. J. Ferry: "None Intended" We then considered a second alter- is right! native, that of a Statutory Authority for the Hon. J. DOLAN: I repeat: No country alone, which had been The suggested some Years earlier. Now, regulation-making powers are associated after some encouragement from the with section 11A of the Traffic Act and then Minister, this was again put for- none are envisaged. ward but was rejected by the Gov- The Hon. A. F. Griffith: No, because they ernment at the time. are already there. Eventually that motion was carried. The The Hon. J. DOLAN: I think we will People who were Present and who spoke probably agree on one point raised by Mr. against the motion did so for varying Ferry: that is. both political parties-or, reasons. The atmosphere was very chilly. 2942 2942COUNCIL.)

The Ron. J. Heitman: I thought Is was minutes but nearly every line contains one hot. or two mistakes. The minutes read as fol- lows:- The Hon. J7. DOLAN: In some quarters it was running hot. Councillor Tonkin Cr. Nanovich (Wanneroo) said his from Menzies opposed the motion. The Council had traffic control by the Pol- following is recorded in the minutes:- ice only for a trial period of 6 months and Minister Councillor Tonkin (Menzles) oppo- -it was unsatisfactory, sed-should be considered above Party was glad to hand It back to Council- Politics-we are dealing with people's we want to control traffic-we want to lives-IMenzies, Leonora, Laverton too save lives-with health services as well small to employ traffic inspectors- as traffic-to serve the community- don't have the resources-we have a in the 6 months trial period, Wan- lot of heavy large through traffic- neroo had a lot of criticism-we use 3 not only our own people-we have ex-Policemen, who agree that Police tried, but failed-Shire Clerk unable cannot do as good a Job as the Coun- to do much-cannot chase offenders, cils are doing- or check oversize loads-local police- I thought it was Cassius Clay who was man has some spare time, and could speaking! I will refer to the Wanneroo do it-talk of loss of status is absurd, representative's comments later and I will when compared with loss of lives- tell the real story. Members will be able to discussion at Kalgoorlie showed only see that many of the things which he said Coolgardie against police control. have very little foundation. They have That was in 1971. but now Coolgardie has very little foundation, when we take Into accepted the offer for the police takeover. consideration the file that was kept by The minutes continue- the previous Minister for Police against Councillor Tuckey (Carnarvon) said whom I offer no criticism, because I previous speaker had said did not have thought he did an excellent job. enough money to pay inspector-if From the minutes we find that the fol- we had our proper right to license lowing motion submitted by the Morawa, fees. etc., he could afford to pay- Shire was withdrawn:- how many did the local police catch? That the Country Shire Councils' -they can do it now if they like- Association adopt a positive attitude Mr. Dolan's plan to take over by stages in pressing for a single Authority, di- will mean the bigger profitable places vorced from the Police Department, to first-Menzies etc. will be last. handle licensing and traffic control The whole matter is absolutely ridiculous. throughout Western Australia. The minutes record the views of Councillor This motion was withdrawn by Councillor Hinds of Merredin as follows:- Croot of Morawa with the permission of Councillor Hinds (Merredin) as an the conference. explanation-he had previously been The lion. A. F. Griffith: I received a against police "takeover" but control telegram from the Wanneroo Shire and was now better-Police had good 150 People employed by that shire: and psychological effect on younger people they all said they opposed the Bill. -traffic more orderly-financially problem, but Police now visiting farms The Hon. J7.DOLAN: I heard that when where groups of tractors inspected- the honourable member read it out. Council had had good deal of trouble inspectors. The Hon. A. F. Griffith: I did not read with and between it out. I told you about it. I also received There was another speaker at the meet- a telegram from the Kalgoorlie Town ing. and he was Councillor Paterson of Es- Council and the Boulder Shire. The minutes record what he said perance. The Hon. J. DOLANi: Now I want to as follows:- bring Mr'. Heitman into the picture. In his Cr. Paterson (Esperance) said when contribution he started by saying a great Esperance was receiving $120,000 was deal about an Interdepartmental commit- happy to spend $24,000 on traffic, but tee that had been set UP. I do not sub- when this reduced to $14,000, with loss scribe to anything he has said about that of $10,000 decided could not afford to committee, and I am very much surprised saddle ratepayers with this burden- he has not been put on the mat by some alternatives were more fines, more of his own colleagues; because had I rates, or hand over-previously had 2 done the same thing in a similar vein I Inspectors,-these now Policemen, would be placed on the mat by People from with 6 others-they were more effec- many quarters and I am sure members tive as Policemen-he was against a opposite would also be shooting at me left, Statutory Authority-it meant setting right, and centre. up another Government Department. If members opposite listen very care- I want to quote the views of Councillor fully they will see how Mr. Heitman has Nanovich of Wanneroo. His comments are stepped out of line. This interdepartmental recorded in approximately 10 lines in the committee comprised top-ranking civil [Tuesday, 5 September, 1972] 294394 servants-people who served previous These two gentlemen put in a minority Governments and this Government equally report. I respect them for what they have well, because that is their job. This inter- done, and what they did was quite legiti- departmental committee was set up by the mate and fair. If I were in their position previous Government. This was what Mr. and faced the same state of affairs I Hleitman had to say about that commit- would have done what they did. tee- One would assume that Mr. Davies. the Of course that committee was Assistant Commissioner of Main Roads, loaded. and Mr. Parrick, the Secretary of the Main Imagine using such an expression to des- Roads Department who, incidentally, are cribe a committee set up by his own Gov- still serving the Government and who ernment! I have heard this expression be- were on the committee, would ensure that ing used many times. People talk of the the country shires did have a fair go. danger of a gun being loaded, and of dice On the committee there was Chief In- being loaded for dishonest purposes In spector Salter of the Police Traffic Branch. gambling. Mr. Heitman referred to this I might concede that, in view of the fact committee set up by his own Government that this matter is related to the police as being loaded. In his contribution to control of traffic, he might Perhaps have this debate he went on to say- been unconsciously biased. Another mem- There is no chance of the country ber of the committee was Mr. Darch, areas getting a fair go in view of the Secretary of the Police Department. A personnel on the committee. member who, I think, would be completely independent was the Assistant Under- Surely he is not saying that his Govern- Treasurer, Mr. McCanreY. Surely with ment set up a committee, the personnel men of which was such that the country areas of that calibre on the committee, it can- would not get a fair go. That is an indict- not be said that the committee was loaded. ment of the civil servants who comprised I assume Mr. Heitman believes that the the committee. single authority which he has proposed will give a fair go to everybody: and he The Hon. J. Heitman: If you wanted the goes along with that committee. I have country shires to take over traffic control obtained pulls of his speech, and I have would you put the country shire councils read his comments. This single traffic ,or the police on it? control authority is the one that has been The Hon. J. DOLAN: The honourable served up to us as Liberal Party policy. member was insinuating that the previous Government did what I have just referred The Hon. A. F. Griffith: What do you to. The honourable member went on to mean by served up? say- The Hon. J. DOLAN: Mr. Heitman has They were committed to police con- served it up to us. The single authority trol in the country areas right from which Mr. Heitman has suggested as being the start. We have all read the report Liberal Party policy is to comprise- and we all know what was attempted Two representatives of the Country by it. Shire Councils' Association. I disagree completely with the views he One representative of the Country expressed, and I am sure the honour- Town Councils' Association. able member would not be a party to any- thing that was loaded. The committee to One representative of the Local Gov- which he was referring comprised Mr. ernment Association. White who was then the Secretary of the One representative of the Perth City Local Government Department, and Mr. Council. Paust who was then the Assistant Secret- ary of the Local Government Department. One person nominated by the Secret- At the present time Mr. White is still ary for Local Government.. associated with local government because One person nominated by the Com- he is the Secretary of the Country Shire missioner of Main Roads. Councils' Association. I1have the greatest respect for him. One person nominated by the Commis- sioner of Police. The Hon. J. Heitman: So have 1. The chairman is to be a person nominated The Hon. J. DOLAN: I found him to by the Minister for Traffic and Road Safety be a gentleman. When he was apipointed to as his representative. that committee he could be relied on to carry out its functions. The representatives from the local authorities are to be selected from a panel The Hon. J. Heitman: He put in an of names submitted to the Minister. Of independent minority report. course, I imagine they would be represen- The Hon. 3. DOLAN: I accept that as an tatives of the Country Shire Councils' As- expression of opinion by Mr. White and sociation or the Local Government by Mr. Faust who is the present Secretary Association. We will not find a stray in of the Local Government Department. the Paddock being appointed. 2944 2944COUNCIL.]

One. of the recommendations made by views which were part of our policy. In the Liberal Party is that the amount of his policy speech delivered on the 3rd reimbursement to be made to the shire February, 1971, the present Premier said- councils shall be agreed to between the As the Present system of multiple councils and the authority. That is to say. traffic control and vehicle licensing is the shire councils and the authority will incompatible with State-wide efficient get together and decide what reimburse- traffic management we shall place ment they will get out of the traffic fees. complete control of traffic with the When Mr. Heitman was putting forward Police Department which we propose that proposition Mr. Ferry interjected by to restructure. saying this about the recommendations-- That Is as plain as it could Possibly be, It was mentioned in Sir David and that is what I have told numerous deputations, and what I have said in Brand's policy speech. answer to the numerous submissions and To that interjection Mr. Heitman replied, letters which have been sent to me. That "Yes." I have made some inquiries and I is the sort of thing which indicates that have obtained copies of that policy speech, I am dictatorial! The Hon. A. F. Griffith: I could have The Hon. 0. C. MvacKinnon. Perhaps supplied you with half a dozen copies. not really; perhaps the Minister just sounds as though he is. The Hon. J. DOLAN: That is strange. I thought the honourable member would The Hon. J. DOLAN: I will now refer have returned as a quid pro Quo the ser- to remarks made by Mr. Heitman. He vices I rendered to Mr. McNeill the other really had a second go at this subject evening. I would expect members opposite when he spoke because during the to know what their policy is, and I would Address- in- Reply debate last session he expect Mr. Ferry to know what Sir David referred to a Mr. Drysdale, who was the Brand did say in his policy speech. shire clerk at Broome, Mr. Heitman re- ferred to the fact that Mr. Drysdale talked I have been through that policy speech, the Broome Shire Council into having and marked out some portions which are police takeover of traffic. Mr. Drysdale relevant. In the policy speech Sir David was accused-and I have read out what mentioned that if returned to office his was said-of fooling the Broome Shire Government would appoint a special com- Council in connection with the amount of missioner of traffic and road safety with money it would receive. State-wide powers, and that he would be Mr. Drysdale later transferred to Esper- given authority by legislation to act directly ance, and Mr. Heitman claims that he in the interests of road safety anywhere in was not there very long before he talked the State. However, in the policy speech that shire council into handing over the I found the following interesting refer- control of traffic to the police. I think ence- that is cheap criticism of the members of The committee will examine the the two shire councils concerned: That possibility of accrediting driving they could be talked into something of schools on the basis that their certifi- this nature by an individual. Surely the cate of competence automatically shire clerk is not the man who dictates qualifies drivers for a licence. to any shire council. The aim here is to relieve traffic If I am in the Esperance area in the police of driver-testing duties and free near future I shall call on Mr. Drysdale them for road safety work. because I feel I must meet him. Evidently that was what Sir David Brand The H-on. D. J. Wordsworth: I will be had in mind. ]If Mr. Ferry has not read happy to introduce you. that Policy speech closely I1 suggest he The Hon. J. DOLAN: The honourable should do so. What Mr. Ferry said by member will get a mention if he is patient! interjection was not the policy enunciated I think Mr. Drysdale must be a wonderful by Sir David Brand before the last election. man because one of the members of the The I-on. G. C. MacKinnon: Will You Esperance Shire Council, at the time when read out what Mr. Tonkin said in relation the police took over, was Mr. Wordsworth to the same question? himself. The Hon. D. J. Wordsworth: That is The Hon. J. DOLAN: I said it at the correct. beginning of my speech and if members care to listen I will read it again. The Hon. J. DOLAN: I ask: Can mem- bers imagine anyone talking him into any- The Hon. 0. C. MacKinnon: Read it thing? They would not get a chance; he again; we have the time. would be talking so much that no-one The Hon. J. DOLAN: Evidently the would be able to get a word in edgeways. honourable member is not too sure about Mr. Heitman read an article from the it, so I will read it again. Mr. Tonkin South Western Times. For sheer imnperti- enunciated in 1969-when the Traffic Act nence that statement took the bun, In my was amended so that country shires could book. I could tell members who supplied voluntarily surrender their powers--some the information for the article, and his [Tuesday, 5 September, 1972) 294594 name has been quoted here this evening. The Hon. J. DOLAN: That is right, but On many occasions I have read out con- in this case I would have had some com- fusing statements from him. ments to make. I would complement Mr. Heitmnan on The Hon. A. F. Griffith: You should his excellent choice of words. it might be have had some to make on 11A. remembered that Mr. Heitman received permission to have Incorporated in Han- The Hon. J. DOLAN: Would the hon- sard a communication which he received ourable member like to make up for it from the Swan Shire Council. He referred now? He did not mention anything pre- to the communication on three occasions viously. as a screed. It is quite interesting to look The H-on. A. F. Griffith: I bet you had at the interpretation of "screed" contained a look to see if I did. in the Concise Oxford Dictionary. The Hon. J. DOLAN: Of course I did. The Hon. J. Heitman: What number Is The PRESIDENT: Order! this one? The Ron. J. DOLAN: I did my home- The Hon. J. DOLAN: The definition of work and the Minister knew what the the word, "screed" is a "Long tiresome answer would be when he asked the ques- harangue. . . or letter. . ." I am pleased tion. he saved us the agony of having to listen The Hon. A. F, Griffith: "The Minister" to it. Of course, the author of the com- again. munication was the senior traffic inspec- tor at Middle Swan. I suppose he Is one The Hon. J. DOLAN: I mean, of course, of those unbiased Individuals to whom the Leader of the Opposition. I am sur- reference has been made during the debate! prised that neither Mr Willmott nor Mr. I will refer to that again shortly, Ferry-as co-province nzembers-did. not done in this I agree completely with what Mr. Will- mention the excellent work rnott had to say-and I think Mr. Syd particular field in the heart of their pro- Thompson said the same thing tonight- vince. I refer to the Manjimup High that we have to start with driver educa- School, and also to the work done by tion. We have to get better drivers on Rotary. the roads. I made that statement at the The Hon. V. J. Ferry: I did not have university 12 months ago when I said I sufficient time. thought that about 75 to 80 per cent, of The Hon. J. DOL.AN: The honourable our drivers were not fit to be on the roads member spoke for 40 minutes and I sug- as drivers. An interjector said that my gest he could have cut out other matters figures were wrong and when I queried to which he referred so that the rest of the interjector he said that the figure the members in this House could have was mare like 95 per cent. So some People benefited from his remarks. have a poor opinion of those who drive on our roads. The PRESIDENT: Order! As I said. Mr. Willmott spoke about the The Hon. J. DOLAN: it would have been necessity for driver education. He en- worth while making up the time by re- visaged the day when driving instruction ferring to other matters. would be part of the school curriculum. I The I-on. W. F. Willesee: What! Some- would inform the honourable member- thing worth while from Mr. Ferry? although he Is probably aware of it-that this is a policy which has been introduced The Hon. J. DOLAN: I am attempting into many of our high schools throughout to make up for what he omitted. The the State principally, of course, through driver education programme at the Man- the efforts of the National Safety Council. jirnup High School has been carried on The instruction is done on a. voluntary for many years now. That school is teach- basis at the schools, and at various times ing what Mr. Willmott and Mr. Syd of the year the students attend the Thompson advocated-driver education. National Safety Council school where they The Hon. F. D. Willmott: But plenty of receive additional driver training. schools are not carrying out such a pro- The Hon. A. F. Griffith: I think I can gramme. remember introducing that legislation. I The Hon. 4. DOLAN: The education am not sure. programme is carried out on a voluntary basis by teachers, the police, and interested The Hon. J. DOLAN: Well, I would com- citizens. The result is most encouraging pliment the Leader of the Opposition for it. and members have my assurance that I will If he introduced it during the time I have continue to encourage the National Fitness been in this House I will bet my last penny Council in its work. that I supported it. The Hon. 0. C. Macitinnon-. I think The Hon. A. F. Griffith: Just the same the minister means the National Safety as you supported the inclusion of section Council, and not the National Fitness IIA in the Traffic Act. Council. That was a slip of the tongue. 2946 2946[COUNC~I.J

The Hon. J. DOLAN: That is so. I The Ron. J. DOL-AN: I will now refer to want to emphasise the excellent results the comments of Mr. Williams. He did not of a scheme of this nature. Not one have much to say in his contribution. I student who has taken the course at the have a great admiration for what Mr. Manjimup High School-and very care- Williams has to say but he referred to a ful records have been kept by the school recommendation to the Victorian Police -has ever had to face a traffic charge. I Force by Sir Eric St. Johnston. Sir Eric think that is a compliment to the school, St. Johnston was the top police officer in the police, the citizens, and Rotary. Great Britain and the Victorian Govern- The Hon. G, C. MacKinnon: As a matter ment asked him to report on its Police of fact, the situation is even better because Force. I would say that most of the recoin- the same record applies to all country mendlations Sir Eric made are gradually schools which have driver-training classes. being implemented. The Hon. J. DOLAN: Rotary has estab- The Hon. Rt. J. L. Williams: In Victoria? lished a training centre for the younger The Hon. J. DOLAN: Yes. Some of the children-the cyclists and so on. The local recommendations made in the report have shire council provided a block of land and already been implemented, and others are I believe the area is called, "The Rotary in the process of being implemented. Safety Park." I was at Manjiinup for the Sir Eric St. Johnston expressed his view opening of the Park, and I was really on traffic and I regard him as a dedicated thrilled by the work being done. man. He was commissioned to do a certain The park has bitumninised roads, and job, and he would have done it with a cer- every traffic sign one can imagine. Re- tain amount of professional pride. Mr. sponsible citizens and the police talk to Williams said- the children and assist them with their One can hardly expect Sir Eric St. driver education. Johnston to be unbiased when he gives The Hon. F. D. Willrnott: They must be his view on traffic, After all is said kept busy changing signs because we are and done, one does not destroy one's busy changing regulations. own child. The Hon. J. DOLAN: I think they are I have debated the latter argument In this House previously, and I am prepared to really up with the situation at the I will join issue with Mr. Wlllmott onpark.' an- debate it again. other matter he raised, and I refer to his The Hon. A. F. Griffith: On a different argument against comnputerisation. He Bill. claimed that he had never had any trouble The Hon. J. DOL-AN: That is correct. with his firearms license until the licenses Mr. Williams referred to the fact that Sir were issued under the, computer system. Eric St. Johnston would not be unbiased The Bon. P. D. Willinott: That would be when he gave his report. Well, I wander right, too. what Mr. Williams' feelings were when he The H-on. J, DOLAN: I want to put the listened to the reports and the telegrams record right because we have a department from the shire councils. I wonder whether which keeps good records. he considers those people to be unbiased, and whether any more notice could be The Hon. F. P. Willmnott: It was not taken of them than of Sir Eric St. Johnston good with my firearms license. when he reported on police control of The H-on. J. DOLAN: If the honourable traffic in Victoria. member will be patient I will explain the The Hon. Rt. J. L. Williams: In Victoria. situation. I would suggest that he con- tributed to the error which he found in the The Hon. J. DOLAN: Mr. MacKinnon records. He did not mention that the card commenced his speech by using some record showed that he disposed of four adjectives to describe our faults, and he firearms to his son, Jack Riches Willinott, expressed his views about centralisation. I on the 30th June, 1971. have always felt that in the event of police takeover of traffic more policemen would The Hon. P. D. Willmott: I think that be stationed throughout the State. The information is wrong. number will not he decreased. The Process The Hon. J. DOTLAN: Mr. Willmott also which has followed the voluntary surren- retained his license and this is where the der of traffic control to the police will be clerk made a mistake. The four firearms repeated. were not only added to the son's license, Mr. MacKinnon referred to a letter from but they were removed from Mr. Willmott's the Commissioner of Police to the Secre- license whereas he wished to retain his tary of the Police Union. He indicated that license for those firearms. there must have been a rift or a lack of The point is the computer did not make communication between the Commissioner a mistake, it was the clerk. It was a human of Police and myself. error and it could not be attributed to the That is not at all accurate. The com- computer. missioner and I enjoy the best possible The Hon. P. D. Wfllmott: A computer is relationship so far as his job and mine are only as good as the person who operates it. concerned. (Tuesday, 5 September, 19721 294794 The Hon. 0. C. Macsinnon: Are YOU The Hon. J. DOLAN: I feel sure Mr. going to answer the question I asked? Stubbs will be delighted to have that The Hon. J. DOL.AN: If I omit to answer happen. It is not often he gets a thrill the question and it has not been included of that kind! in all the other matters to which I have The Hon. A. F. Griffith: How do you referred, I shall be happy to answer the know? question for the honourable member. The Hon. G. C. MacKinnon: It is a The Hon. 0. C. MacKinnon: He does not human question. it has to do with the jobs look particularly thrilled at the moment. of the men. The Hon. J. DOLAN: I would like to The Hon. J. DOLAN: I can assure the read the advice given to me by the Acting honourable member that the answer I will Commissioner of Police in the last fort- give him will cover the question he asked. night. He said that during this financial year 162 new policemen will be inducted Mr. White had quite a number of things into the force. That is the highest numn- to say as can be seen from his speech ber of policemen to be inducted into the which will be found on page 2773 of the force in its history. - Paper-bound volume of Hansard No. 13. Mr. White said, "It appears that there is I can say with some pride that this has a shortage of police officers, and a short- been done with the full co-operation of age of recruits." I think Mr. Syd Thomp- the Government. So that is something son also made reference to that during his we are doing to overcome the shortage. speech. Mr. White then continued to say- Let us now consider the question of the The Minister, when he replies, will shortage of recruits. be able to refute or substantiate that it is a strange thing that despite my statement. I can only present what I extreme care to try to put my papers am aware of, and on the basis of the together in the correct order I discover that information available to me. at the moment I am not able to find what I can assure the Minister that some I want. I daresay I can be excused for of the statements I have made have this because even Homer has been known very solid foundation. I do not want to nod; indeed, the Leader of the Op- anybody to try to pull the wool over position also nodded a bit before tea when my eyes-and I do not suggest the he misplaced something he required for Minister would-because I may bounce his speech. In his case, this is most un- back with a few facts and statistics usual. which could not be disproved. In dealing with this question of a short- Let us consider these points one at a time. age of recruits I feel sure that what I We are first told there is a police shortage. present to the House will answer any I do not think anyone can say there is not criticism that has been made in regard a police shortage. It would not matter to the matter. I would also like to say whether we doubled the Police Force that if Mr. White has any official figures tomorrow and sent the men to various which may disprove what I have to say, parts of the State, there would still be and he makes them available to me, and complaints of a shortage of Police officers. they are found to be correct I will, of In an article I saw yesterday the spokes- course, have to accept them. I will then man of the A.M.A. said that there was tell the people who provided me with the a serious shortage of doctors. Of course figures I have that it may be necessary for there is a shortage of doctors, as there is them to go back to school and do a of teachers. These shortages will continue. course in arithmetic or computer program- The ratio of pupils to teachers dropped ming. I stress, however, that there is no from 40 pupils per teacher to 35. It later foundation at all for the statements made dropped from 35 to 25, and even though by Mr. White. He indicated he could it may continue to drop I daresay we will bounce back with a few facts and statistics only reach Utopia when we have one pupil which could not be disproved. to one teacher or we have the teachers From the 1st July, 1971. to the 31st outnumbering the Pupils. If one can be- August, 1972-this covers the period of our lieve what is said on television there is a full financial year and the figures could very real shortage of bricklayers. There not be more up to date-there were 907 is no doubt that these shortages exist and male applicants for admission to the Police I am sure they will continue to exist. The Force. The applicants who were not crux of the matter is, however-and this acceptable, for various reasons, numbered is where I would like to enlighten Mr. 286, which left 621 potentially acceptable White-what is the Minister and the Gov- recruits. ernment doing about the shortage? It is possible in these cases that the The Hon. A. P. Griffith: I will tell the character references may not have been Minister what he is about to do now. If good enough or the men may not have he is not careful he will be sitting on Mr. been able to measure up to the physical Stubb's knee in a moment. requirements or the necessary educational 2948 [COUNCI.] standard. So there were 621 recruits who The Hon. J. DOLAN: It certainly is stood up to the test from among whom because the honourable member does not l01) were selected. know what he is talking about. Mr. White Accordingly there are over 500 whose further said- applications will be considered in the In the field of safety we find that future. There were 75 female applicants if a local authority desires to appoint a crosswalk attendant, to establish a of which only 6 were accepted as a result road crossing, or to have traffic signals of the vacancies that occurred. erected, it must go through the mon- The Hon, F. Rt. White: You have just otonous Procedure, as I outlined in said that 100 recruits have been taken In my contribution to the Address-in- so that is the true figure. Those are Reply debate in August, 1971, of having recruits; the other 500 are applicants for to obtain permission from the Main recruitment. Roads Department. If the department does niot agree, the local authority will The Hon. G. C. MacKinnon'. That Is not be able to do what it seeks. during the time of unemployment since this Government hai been in office. Later the honourable member said- If we had an authority or authorit- The Hon. J. DOLAN: Members appear ative persons who are charged with not to want to accept even the facts I ensuring traffic safety, surely thp present. Mr. White also said that many of authority or such persons would not our Police stations are understaffed and have waited for so long a period of that this all builds up to the argument time before appointing a crosswalk as to how it is Possible for the police to attendant or relocating the crosswalk? take over traffic when they have not The job has been done even though It may sufficient men to do jobs already on their have been done late and I 'will explain 'why plate. This is the basis on which it was this was so. But here again the honour- argued and it is on the same basis that I able member is a long am replying. Mr. way off the beam. White also said- The position concerning school cross- I recently made a request through walks is governed by a procedure which the Minister for an additional police- operated-and I think successfully-during man to be stationed at Kalamnunda. I the regime of the former Government, and amn very grateful for the fact that the it still operates during the regime of the strength of that police station has been present Government. It is something that increased from two policemen to three. has been going on for many years. The honourable member asked for one in the metropolitan traffic area there is policeman and he got one. at present a special School's Crossing Re- viewing Committee comprising a police The Hon. IF. R. White: That was about officer assisted by a Main Roads Depart- two years ago. mnent engineer-traffic service-an Educa- tion Department officer and a represent- The Hon. J. DOLAN: I do not know what ative of the Parent-s and Citizens' Associa- more I1could have done for the honourable tion. mnember. He then continued- This committee makes an on-site visual However, as a result of many judic- inspection of the position and subsequently ious inquiries I am led to believe that the Police Department reports the commit- the strength of the station should be tee's findings to me and recommends five. whether or not a crossing should be estab- lished. When such a report is made to I can only say that the honourable mnem- mec I generally sign it because I know that ber asked for one policeman and he got the committee can be relied upon. one policeman. His request was granted. He So it is not a question of making an then made some judicious inquiries and application to the Main Roads Depart- found that the Midland area was greatly ment. This special committee is establish- understaffed. I cannot understand why ed for this specific purpose; and I repeat the honourable member did not first make it is a committee which operated success- the inquiries and then the application, or fully under the previous Government, does he want me to believe his requests which was quite happy with the work It were not authenticated before presenta- carried out. I am also happy with the tion? work that is being done by this committee. The Hon. F. R. White: I will make an The only one who is not happy with the application tomorrow if you wish. committee is Mr. White. The Hon. F. R. White: That is in the The Hon. J. DOLAN: The honourable metropolitan area. What about the other member asked for one policeman, he got areas? one policeman, and he is still grizzling. The honourable member then made a The Hon. J. DOLAN: In a moment I will reference to crosswalk attendants. try to cover the matter as it relates to the country areas. If a crosswalk is recom- The Hon. F. H. White: That's a beauty. mended the Minister grants approval and (Tuesdeay, 5 September, 19721 242949 the Police Department employs and trains The story goes back to the 2nd Decem- an adult guard to control the school cross- ber, 1966--a long while ago. I may skip a ing for the required short daily periods. few letters which are repetitious, but the I think this represents one hour in the first letter is written to the then Minister morning and one hour in the afternoon. for Police. It reads- The Hon. F. R. White: if recommended. re: Traffic Control. The Hon. J. DOLAN: So far as school My Council is giving consideration crossings are concerned in the country, as to the control of traffic in this district the local authority is the traffic enforce- by the Police Department and would ment authority, it should undertake on-site appreciate your receiving a deputation inspections similar to those conducted by to discuss the financial aspects of this. the on-site committee in the metropolitan area-and this will always be granted- Information is also desired regard- possibly with the assistance of the divi- tig what arrangements the Police sional engineer of the Main Roads ]Depart- Department would make to effect ment, and subsequently make the necessary adequate control. recommendations to the Minister. I do not wish to weary the House 'with As Minister I will always give my consent figures. Mr. Craig, ever obliging, met the to the establishment of school crossings, deputation from the shire and he then particularly when the lives of children or wrote to Mr. Ferris, the Shire Clerk, as of anyone else are likely to be at stake. follows- The local authority should 4employ and In reply to your letter of the 2nd train the necessary adult guard for a school December, and relating also to the dis- crossing, mission in my office on the 8th inst., the Accountant of the Police Depart- The Hon. R. I. White: Who wrote that ment has prepared a statement of the answer for you? financial aspects of including the The Hon. J. DOLAN: People who know Wanneroo Shire district in the Metro- these things and who are responsible for politan Traffic Area. the setting up of these crosswalks. I will It will he seen on the basis of the give the honourable member the names if present formula of distribution that he wishes and I will tell him the authority your Shire would benefit considerably who wrote it. in income from any changeover but, Mr. White also referred to the Wannerco as I explained to your deputation, I Shire Council as having handed the con- can give no guarantee that the exist- trol of traffic over to the police for a period ing formula of distribution could con- of nine months and then requested that the tinue as it may be found necessary control be handed back to it. He under- later to devise a different basis. stood that one of the reasons given was I can only reiterate the Govern- the lack of patrols. This is one of the ment's assurance that any Council occasions on whichi Mr. White could well accepting a police takeover will not have made some judicious inquiries. Had lose financially.. he done so I would have enlightened the honourable member about the disadvan- This is not I, this Is Mr. Craig. To con- tages experienced by the Wanneroo Shire tinue- Council. ..and there is every indication that I obtained the file which was prepared their present income would be ex- when Mr. Craig was Minister for Police and ceeded. Traffic. He was also the member for Toad- As to traffic control, the police yay in which electorate the Shire of Wan- would extend their patrols to give the neroo lies. same coverage to the Wanneroo dis- I repeat that I have no complaints trict as the rest of the metropolitan whatever to make so far as Mr. Craig is area. concerned. The police alleged takeover of The eventual establishment of a the Wanneroo Shire Council traffic con- Police Station at Wanneroo would add trol has often been referred to as an ex- greatly to the provision of traffic con- ample of police iniefficiency. trol as well as normal police protec- The Hon. F. Ri. White: For how long? tion. The Hon. J. DOLAN: Control was handed Further details would need to be to the Police for a while, but the job could worked out after a decision is made by not be done properly and control was your Council. passed back again to the Shire. If the The Hon. A. F. Griffith: What was the honourable member is patient I will tell himi date of that letter? the story. The documents are available in my office and the honourable member can The Hon. J. DOLAN: It is dated the 13th look at them and determine whether or not December. I have reported the matter accurately. The Hon. A. F. Griffith: of what year? 2950 2950[COUNCIL.]

The Hon. J. DOLAN: 1966. We now move dates later on. During the whole of that on to the 14th December, 1986-this is a period the area was being patrolled in the very quick reply. The letter to Mr. Craig same way as the metropolitan area. The reads as follows- shire did not pay one Penny towards the re: Traffic Control. cost of the patrols although traffic con- Thank you for Your letter of the trol had not been taken over by the police. 13th instant. The next letters are simply a repetition- At a meeting of Council held last The Hon. F. ft. White: Had the shire night the following motions were handed the control of traffic over to the passed:- police? 1. That control of Traffic and The Hon. J. DOLAN; Not at that stage. licensing of vehicles be handed The Hon. P. ft. White: Did it hand over to the Police Department. control over? 2. Because of its local knowledge The Hon. J. DOLAN: To the best of my Council requests: knowledge, no. We then get the criticism (a) the opportunity to make any of the Police Department by the Shire recommendations considered of Wanneroo. This has been frequently necessary from time to time. referred to and appears in an article in (b) the opportunity to review any The W~est Australian dated Wednesday. major changes contemplated 7th June, 1967. It reads as follows:- by Metropolitan traffic con- A Wannerco Shire councillor claimed trol in this district. last week that the Police Department In view of the fact that the Council had misled councillors and done them is without a full-time Inspector at an injustice regarding traffic control present,... in the district. I1understand there was some trouble with I will not repeat the names, but members the Inspector who was previously employed. may read them if they so desire. The To continue- councillor moved that the shire should ...it would be appreciated if imme- withdraw its application to be taken over diate action could be taken to provide by the police but his motion was lost by Police traffic patrols in this district. three votes to six, that is two to one The shire requested that the police take against. So members will see there over traffic control, or stated that the shire was not much merit in the grizzle of this would band it over, whichever terminology councillor. There will probably always be members prefer. One of the reasons for the somebody in every shire with a grouch application was that the shire did not have about something. a full-time Inspector and it asked that Mr. Craig was inclined to complain about the patrols be started immediately. Now, this attitude, and I agree with him. He of course, Mr. Craig did the right thing- had organised the patrols the Shire had he advised the Commissioner of Police as requested and these patrols had carried follows:- on. Mr. Craig then wrote to Mr. Ferris as The attached request from the Shire follows:- of Wanneroo follows a deputation to I refer to a report of a meeting of me on the Bth instant, at which an your Council as Published in the "West undertaking was given that the Metro- Australian" on Wednesday, June 7th. politan Police Traffic Patrols would be extended immediately to the district I must say I am surprised to hear Pending consideration of their request. of a Councillor alleging that the Police Department has misled Councillors Would You Please arrange for this to and done them an injustice regarding be done (including attendance at traffic control in the district. serious traffic accidents) and advise me of Your recommendations regard- Referring to traffic fees distribution, ing their general request for a Police a Councillor has reported to have takeover. stated that, four days after giving the Council information as to the figure The Commissioner of Police replied in a the Council would receive under the long two-page letter which members can existing formula of distribution, the read in my office if they wish. It really does Police Department had denied the not alter the picture I am presenting to revenue figures and had told the the House. Council it was working on a new The Hon. F. Rt. White: You have not formula which would be ready in four refuted anything I have said yet. weeks. The Hon. J. DOLAN: The next letter was These are Mr. Craig's words. To continue- from the shire on the 10th February, 1967. The Police Department has not been 1 would remind members that from the engaged in working out a new formula. time of the application the police were An investigation has been conducted by carrying out traffic patrols and these con- Treasury officials concerning the dis- tinued for 10 months. I will give the exact tribution of traffic fees and the effect tauesday, 5 September, 19721 252951

on these lees of extending the Metro- patrol sections within the Metropoli- politan Traffic Area. This investiga- tan Area were continued until the tion is almost completed and a decision 13th October, 1987. will soon be made by the Government That is the story associated with Wanneroo. as to what changes, if any, will follow. I claim, in all fairness to the previous Min- Investigation admittedly has occupied ister and to the police who controlled it some time, but there were so many during that time, that they did every- features that required close examina- thing possible. I feel the Shire of Wannergo tion that it was inevitable the report has been very well treated. I am not con- 'was delayed. cerned with Its views of the police take- In the meantime your Council has over of traffic. If the Bill is carried the had, at no cost, the services of a police will take over these duties in the traffic control car in its district, for course of time, unless the shire decides to sixteen hours per day, seven days a voluntarily hand over control. week. The Hon. A. F. Griffith: You are not Besides this, a motor cycle patrol concerned with the fact that it now wants has been detailed from two shifts each to stay outside police control? day for duty in the Marmion-North Beach, Balcatta, Nollarnara and Wan- The Hon. J. DOLAN: That is the shire's nerco townsite areas. own business. If it has an opinion of that nature, I respect it. When the conditions under which the Shire district could be included The Hon. A. F. Griffith: I wondered what in the Police Traffic area are decided all this was about. upon by the Government, you will be The Hon. J. DOLAN: Some members have immediately advised. In the mean- talked about central licensing authorities, time the same police coverage, which computerisation, and so on. The question of I consider is very adequate, will con- personalised plates has also been raised. tinue to be given to the Wanneroo I had no reason to imagine that this par- district. ticular matter would be raised in the debate. I could have included many other The letter then quotes some statistics about things in the second reading speech but I accidents which are of no importance in would probably have been criticised for this context. Eventually the shire reached including irrelevancies. I am criticised if the stage where it decided not to continue I include things of this nature and with its application. The shire clerk criticised if I do not. then replied to Mr. Craig's letter as fol- lows:- Members are familiar with the person- alised plates and I will not describe them Thank you for you letter of the 5th again. They have been in vogue for some instant regarding a report published time in New South Wales using numbers in the "West Australian" newspaper of allocated to New South Wales. A person is June, 7th, 1987. able to ask for and obtain his own initials The Councillor concerned was not but he Pays quite a sum for these plates present at the last meeting when your -$25 a set. This has brought in a letter was discussed. considerable amount of money-$50,000 I have been instructed to pass the or $60,000 a year-and the authorities like letter to him and Council has noted the it. Members may ask why a sum of $25 contents. a set. This Is necessary because there is no computerisation in either New South Wales The patrols had commenced on the 18th or Victoria. Consequently all that Is in- December, 1966, and were discontinued at volved is the clerical recording of altered 12 midnight on the 13th October, 1967. numbers and the exercise is quite a money- The shire said that it wished to resume the making affair. control of traffic but it would be a month I used the word "sentimental" to describe before it could obtain the services of these plates. Last weekend it became pos- officers, etc., and it asked whether the sible to obtain these plates in Victoria, also, Police Department would carry on during and this was the comment in The Aus- this period. Mr. Craig, in his efficient way, tralian of the 30th August, 1972, under said, "Yes, we will see that the district is the heading of "They're just fashion not without patrols. The patrols will be Plates." This is a little different from my provided for the next month until you are mild term. The article reads as follows:- ready to take it over:' The officer in charge THE vanity of Victorian motorists of the traffic control section had this to has already netted the State Govern- say- ment $40,000. for personalised, pick- Since the notification from the Shire your-own number Plates, the first of of Wanneroo of the resumption by which will be seen on Melbourne roads them of traffic control on the 20th at the weekend. Yesterday the plates. September, 1967 commensurate with which range from AAOOO to ZZ999, other duties, intermittent patrols in were a great success and 1600 people conj unction with patrols of adjacent had Paid $25 a set. 2952 [COUNOTL.]I

So. from that, it can be seen the Victorian The Hon. 0. C. MacKinnon: Who said Government obtained $40,000 for the first that? weekend. If Victoria is able to do this It is because the registrations of the number The Hon.' J. DOLAN: That was said in Plates as is the case in New South Wales the letter read by Mr. Heitman. are not computerised, otherwise that The Hon. J. Heitman: It was in a, news- State would have encountered some of the paper article. troubles that we have already experienced. The Hon. J. DOLAN: Anyway it is re- The Hon. N. McNeill: Are you going to corded in Hansard so members will be able deal with the point that we raised in re- to read it there. I visited Busselton at gard to the use of district Plates by various the beginning of this Year. The shire had country shires? a few worries and it wanted to bring a deputation to meet me in my office. How- The Hon. J. DOLAN: If the honourable ever, I thought I would go down and see member will only exercise a little patience the members of the shire at Busselton. I will deal with that point shortly. I did so and my wife went with me. After shire and The Ron. A. F. Griffith: I thought we meeting some members of the were being extremely Patient in listening after they explained what they wanted to see me about, I said to them. "Before we to the Minister. go any further, how have you found the The Hon. J. DOLAN: In many country traffic control by the police?" They said, districts throughout the State the shires "That is the best day's work we ever did; issued their own plates on which are that is, when we handed over the traffic shown a letter or letters which indicate control to the police." I then said, "You the Particular shire that has issued the are quite satisfied with it?' And they re- Plates. These plates Identify a person with Plied, "Yes, this is where we have real a particular district. Letters such as "WA" traffic control." or "MO" do not mean anything to the I then went to see the local inspector in average motorist, but they do mean some- charge of Police and after telling him what thing to a person who belongs to that par- the shire members had told me I asked ticular district. However, Plates such as him for a few figures to substantiate the the example I am holding up for members statements made by the shire members. I to see can be purchased. said to him, "For instance, how do the The Hon. 0. C. MacKinnon: I think you number of accidents compare with what should describe the plate so that those they used to be?" And he replied, "The People who read Mansard will know what records show that we have decreased them You are talking about. by 90 to 95 per cent." I said. "Are you sure the figures are right?" And he said, The Hion. J. DOLAN: Perhaps I can get "We can guarantee them." I then asked. Mansard to publish a photograph of it. "How have the fatalities been?" And he However, I will describe it. This is a metal said, "We have not had a fatality since surround, on the bottom of which is shown we took over." I would mention that a the name of the Particular district where fatality has occurred during the holiday the plate is issued. As a matter of inter- period since my visit to Busselton. est the person who manufactures these I went a little further and asked him, Plates was a well known tennis player a "Have you any other statistics to present?" few years ago. His name is Clive Wilder- And he said, "Yes, the people say that the spin. I will also point out that they are police get great respect here." Later. I much cheaper than $25. In my opinion, asked some People in the street what they if the town "Waroona" were shown at the thought about traffic being controlled by bottom of the registration plate it would the police and they said. "It is wonderful." mean a great deal more to a particular I also asked the Police in Busselton motorist than would the letters "WO". whether they could give me any other in- The Hon. G. C. MacKinnon: The only dication that the control of traffic by the town you have not mentioned Is flussel- police would instill and encourage good ton, which is the name of the townm shown driving habits in the area. They replied, at the bottom of the metal frame you dis- "Last week we carried out an amphometer playved to the House. check on the Russell Highway. Four hun- dred motorists went through it and we The Hon. J. DOLAN: I have a story to had to pull up only one. The rest obeyed tell about the Busselton takeover. It is the law." one well worth repeating. I think the honourable member would feel a little The Hon. W. R. Withers: Did you meet disappointed if I did not say something any psychopaths down there? about it. Reference to the Busselton The Eon. J. DOLAN: Should the honour- Shire was made in a letter. One of the able member so desire, I will go down to arguments put forward was that traffic flusselton with him one weekend and he control in Busselton was so bad that when can ask the same questions that I did it was handed over to the police they whilst I was there. I am sure he will get could not help making a better job of it. the same answers. I will be very surprised [Tuesday, 5 September, 1972] 295395 if the honiourable member picks a winner reluctance to surrender revenue from and finds that somebody is unhappy with traffic Prosecutions to the State Gov- the police control of traffic. ernient. Mr. Withers indicated his support for the I wish to commend Mr. Syd Thompson for Bill. The reason he gave was that all the his consistency. His opinion of what he shires in the Pilbara. and Kimberley dils- considered was the correct thing then is dricts had handed over the control of the same today, and I respect his views on traffic to the police. the matter. At least he does not have one The Hon. W. R. Withers: All bar one. set of thoughts one week and a different The Hon. J. DOLAN: I will make the set the next week. During the same speech, honourable member happy. On the day the following is what Mr. Syd Thompson after the House rose on the 24th August had to say on the subject:- we received an application from the Halls The reason country shires are Creek Shire requesting that traffic control anxious to retain traffic con trol is that be taken over by the police. We will be they feel the authority of the country happy to oblige and the honourable mem- shires is being sapped; and that the ber can then say that not even one shire handing over of country traffic control has been left out in the Pilbara and Kim- is the last straw. If it were not for berley districts. this reason they would be glad to hand The Hon. W. R. Withers: What place over traffic control immediately. This will I be given in the class; first or second? is the last ditch stand by the country shires to retain the little authority that The Hon. J. DOLAN: Only second they now have. Place. I will have to give pride of place to Mr. Clive Griffiths, my co-member in the I have had a few words to say about regis- South-East Metropolitan Province. I tration plates, and so on, and I am now thought he was one of the few members approaching the semi-final. who made a realistic and reasonable ap- proach to the measure. He said, "We will I wish to make it quite clear that no-one not get anywhere unless we have co- supporting the Bill-I include all members ordinated control." He is a good co- of my own Party, and also Mr. Withers member. His action shows a sense of and Mr. Olive Griffiths-vould be so rash responsibility. as to prophesy that the result of the p ass- ing of the Bill will lead to any im- Mr, Clive Griffiths can see that in this mediate drastic reduction in road accident Bill we are aiming at co-ordination. I fatalities as against the present system. asked one. honourable member his opinion of a regional council, and he replied he A number of times in the debate we have was in favour of a regional council: that heard of the rising road toll. If members it could do a better job because traffic have a copy of tonight's Daily News handy, would be under one control. That is al- they will notice, from the special page ready done in many parts of the State. dealing with traffic safety, that there have Therefore, if that applies to a small group, been fewer fatalities on the road during or a number of small groups, will not the this year than during the corresponding same apply equally well when we have one period of last year. Therefore the number control throughout the State? of fatalities is decreasing and the num- The Hon. F. D. Willmott: That is what ber of accidents is dropping proportion- we want. ately. The Mon. J. DOLAN: That is what we I have received letters from various want, too. The Liberal Party is seeking a authorities such as hospitals and ambu- single authority divorced from the police lance drivers who have commented on the and we claim, of course, that the control of reduction in the accident rate. They have traffic should not be divorced from the seen this reduction reflected in the num- police. ber of calls they have received. During the course of my research last The Hon F. D. Willmott: Does this apply week I came across a report of a speech only to the metropolitan area? made by Mr. Syd Thompson. It was made by him during the Adress-in-Reply debate The Hon. J. DOLAN: In yesterday's. and the report of his speech can be found newspaper there is a report which states in volume 1 of the 1969-70 Hansard, at that the number of road fatalities and page 239. Mr. Syd Thompson was referring accidents in the country is rising. I thinkt to a point that had been raised by the I have said before that every time I pick Minister for Traffic (Mr. Craig) at that up a newspaper and read that somebody time and which had been reported in The has been killed on the road I feel really West Australian of the 7th August, 1971. sad, and I will never be satisfied until the The quotation made by Mr. Syd Thompson day arrives when these fatalities will end. was as follows:- I doubt if they ever will, but should that According to Traffic Minister Craig, day ever arrive I will be very happy; I do opposition to police control of country not care which Government is in office or traffic is rooted in local authorities' which Minister is in control of traffic. (961 2954 2954COUINCIL.)

A great deal of play has been made of Given the strength of numbers and the the fact that we need dedicated men to facilities, the police can do the job as control traffic. Let members pick up this well as, if not better and certainly more evening's newspaper and read a report of economically than, the existing fragmented how the Police had to chase a motor cyclist system permits, and certainly just as well who was driving at 108 miles per hour. as the fanciful statutory body so strongly When the police eventually caught him advocated by some opponents of the Bill. they found that the cycle had a bald tyre Advocates of a separate authority to and other defects, In my opinion this control traffic-I would like members to gives the lie to all the balderdash one hears iisten carefully to this--seem to have ig- about the police creating a bad image for nored the cost factor in implementing themselves because they book a person for such a system. A very important aspect driving at five miles over the speed limit, of the voluntary takeover so far has been Men such as the motor cyclist who was the ability to absorb traffic control and driving at 108 miles per hour, and motor- licensing into the police system with a, ists who drive across intersections when minimum of inconvenience and very little the traffic lights are showing red, or who cost. Generally a changeover of traffic con- do not stop at "Stop" signs, are potential trol and licensing requires only the addi- killers. Therefore no-one can tell me tion to the existing police facilities of a that any policeman who apprehends such vehicle inspection area together with a motorist with a view to putting him off the road does not have courage and Is not modest equipment, extra vehicles, and dedicated to his duty. The only trouble is associated staff. It was estimated in April, that these types of motorists are put off 1971, that the total outlay of a change- for only 12 months. Some of these people over to police control would be in the are an absolute menace on the roads. vicinity of $1,176,000, with an annual run- ninlg cost of $960,000. which would be off- I think someone stated that I was wrong set by an expected increase in revenue of when I said that 75 to 80 per cent, of the $930,000. drivers should not be on the roads. I repeat that the only thing wrong with that To set up a completely separate system figure is that I should have said that 95 of licensing and traffic control with an per cent. of them should not be on the operative force, accommodation and hous- roads. ing, equipment, and all other necessary things without making use of existing The Hon. F. R. White: If the policeman facilities as controlled by the police, would had not been chasing that person he might cost mill ions in capital outlay. All of this have been doing only 60 miles an hour in- would have to come out of the pockets stead of 80 or 100. of the motorists in additional charges or, The Hon. J. DOLJAN: The honourable alternatively, would result in less money member talks some awful bunkum at being available for road funds. times. The training of efficient staff to At some future date it might be pos- this end is a more feasible proposition than sible to consider separation of vehicle the present fragmented control whereby licensing from traffic control, but what traffic inspectors are employees of numer- the Government proposes in this measure ouis local authorities governed by people is to bring traffic control and licensing with no expertise in this great problem under the control of the Commissioner of despite all the good intentions in the Police. This is all that should be considered world. at this point of time and perhaps members The lack of consistency and application should ask themselves what they are likely in traffic control between the various to ac-hieve by defeating the Bill, as it local government bodies is quite obvious to seems quite obvious that if the current any unbiasd observer and it is a situation rate of handovers continues, there will be that, in fairness to the motoring public, few local authorities controlling traffic should be terminated as soon as possible. within the space of two years. No matter what is said to the contrary, The Ron. A. P. Griffith: What you are the fact remains that control of moving saying is that by letting the police take traffic and the conduct of our motoring over, it will cost virtually nothing- population is, and always will be, inevitably linked with the normal functions of the The Hon. J. DOLAN: No, I did not say Police Department. that. It is useless to say the police should con- The Hon. A. F. Griffth:-in com- cern themselves with criminal law en- parison with a separate authority which forcement and not be associated with the will cost-millions, you say? enforcement of laws relating to moving The Hon. J. DOLAN: That is right. traffic so as to have some bearing and in- The Hon. A. F. Griffith: Could you ex- fluence on the murder and mayhem that pand on that? takes place on public roads. The killing and injury of persons in and by vehicles The Hon. J. DOLAN: I gave the figures Is police business. origainally. (Tuesday, 5 September, 1972] 295595

The Hon. A. F. Griffith: Could YOU ex- The Ron. J. DOLAN: Of course it does. pand and tell us why it will involve I assumed that when Mr. White made millions? the remark. The Hon. J. DOLAN: I can only repeat The Hon. A. P. Griffith: There is not a wvhat I said previously, which was that to great deal of strength to that argument. set up a completely separate system of The Hon. J. DOLAN: The whole of the licensing and traffic control with an opera- north has been taken over. We have re- tive force-that is what is proposed under ceived applications from numerous sources a separate authority divorced from the and it will not be long before the small Police Force; do not get off the beam; I pockets of hard core resistance, which are cannot answer one argument and then be fostered by certain people are taken over. faced with another-accommodation and housing, equipment, and all other neces- The Hon. A. F. Griffith: Hard core sary things without making use of existing resistance of 50 local authorities. facilities as controlled by the police, would The Hon. J. DOLAN: That is right. cost millions in capital outlay. I will leave In no area where the police have taken it at that and the Leader of the Opposition over control has there been any dissatis- can formulate his thoughts on the matter. faction expressed. I have not received one The Hon. G, C. Maci~innon: I think that complaint-I say that truthfully and is quite wrong. honestly-from any shire or any person. The Hon. J. DOLAN: Those people wh During the debate those members who have talk of separating traffic control from te in their provinces a shire which has been Police Department fail to realise ho taken over by the police have not referred closely traffic law enforcement is assoi- to one complaint. ated with enforcement in criminal areas. The Hon. F. R. White: What about Mun- and the number of apprehensions made by daring? Have they complained? traffic personnel which lead to an import- The Hon. J. DOLAN: Is Mundaring ant breakthrough in the detection of seri- under the control of the Police? ouis crimes. This is particularly noticeable in reading the daily unusual incidents re- The Hon. F. R. White: Yes, part of it is. ported by the traffic police. For example, The Hon. J. DOLAN: And that is what one reads of a traffic patrol picking up a the complaint is about. They feel there stolen car occupied by several young of- should be unified control. I agree. The fenders wanted for breaking and entering sooner the rest of the area comes under offences. Frequently through the agency police control, the better. of their radios, traffic officers attend signal The Hon. N. McNeill: Is your Govern- alerts and apprehend breaking and enter- ment placing the road safety department ing offenders and even safe breakers. with the Main Roads Department or the At other times vehicles are stopped for Pollee Department? traffic offences and found to be loaded wit stolen goods, and recently illicit drugs were The Hon. J. DOLAN: Part of our party's found in a vehicle stopped for a traffic platform is that a Minister for Traffic offence. All this stems from having fully Safety should be appointed. I was not trained police officers carrying out traffic appointed as Minister for Traffic Safety work and having an avenue of contact because it is in the platform that with the motoring public. One cannot ex- that portfolio must be divorced from police pect similar versatility from traffic in- control. It was felt that the appropriate spectors or other organistions not con- Minister was Mr. Jamieson who is in nected directly with the Police. It is charge of the Main Roads Department ridiculous even to consider that two which controls signs, road construction, separate organisations, one for traf- and so on. That was why I was not given fic and one for crime, could Possibly the portfolio, plus the tact that I have be as efficient as one body under one con- plenty on my plate at present. trol, at anything remotely approaching the As I1said, in no area where the police same total cost. have taken over control has any dissatis- As I said Previously, the rate of progress faction been expressed. On the contrary, a of voluntary handovers will, within a few recent survey indicated local authorities years, leave only small pockets of hard were well pleased with the manner in which core resistance to police control of traffic. the police were carrying out these duties. Already 19 local authorities have handed over to police control and four are Police strength has increased in various negotiating to country areas: marked Police vehicles with do so. radio communication have been established, Mr. White, the Secretary of the Country and despite fears expressed about the Shire Councils' Association, said that '73 future employment of persons engaged per cent. of the people in the State are by local authorities in traffic work-and now under Police traffic control. this will answer Mr. MacKinnon, I hope- The Hon. A. F. Griffith: That '73 per takeovers have been executed quite cent. represents the metropolitan area in smoothly and many traffic inspectors have the main. been inducted into the Police Force and, 2956 2956COUNCIL.] as far as it is known, only one has been The Hon1. J, DOLAN: They have taken rejected as a police employee and he was the initiative in these matters, Of course able to secure other acceptable employ- they had to receive assistance, and they ment. will continue to do so. I commend the The Hon. 0. C. MacKinnon: You still honourable member for his part. I do not have not answered my question which was bury my head in the sand and say that specific and simple enough to understand, the honourable member did nothing. 1 surely to goodness, acknowledge those things. The Hon. J, DOLAN: What was it? The Hon. G. C. MacKinnon: I know the competence The Hon. 0. C. MacKinnon: What of those two doctors. happens to a good, competent officer over The Hon. J. DOLAN: And so do 1; and the age of 50 years who has given 15 to I feel they have every right to be respected 20 years to traffic inspection? for their views. That is why I quoted them. They feel local authorities should be The Hon. J. DOLAN: I have indicated the conditions before. it is against police phased out of traffic Control. regulations for anyone over 45 to be The views of The West Australian have brought into the Police Force. not changed one bit. It believes it is time The Ron. 0. C. MacKinnon: I think that we got on with the job of setting up the is quite inhuman. authority under the police and claims that the sooner it is done the better. I had in- The Hon. J. DOLAN: The bonourable tended to read the article which appeared mnember had an opportunity when in Gov- only within the last fortnight, reaffirming ernment to do something about it. its opposition to the present system and The Hon. C. C. MacKinnon, We did. recommending the takeover, but I cannot Whenever there was anything like this, we locate it readily. did something about looking after people, I apologise to some members for having with a grandfather clause. We did not taken so long to reply, but as I felt the throw them on the scrap heap. Bill was so important, and as practically The Hon. J. DOLAN: I have heard that every member spoke on it and queried tale before. I still have to be convinced many aspects, I felt it desirable to go to about it. some length to explain what it Proposed. The Hon. 0. C. MacKinnon: Do not My Government believes--and I was in- mumnble to yourself. Speak up. strumental in bringing the Bill before Par- The Hon. J. DOLAN: The only civilian liament-that the co-ordination of traffic who was available for employment other under the police has somne chance of than with the local government body, has effecting considerable improvements in been taken into the Public Service and road safety and of lowering the road toll. additionally four clerks have been em- ployed at various country centres. The Government honestly and sincerely I repeat that this legislation is favoured believes this will happen, of course dif- by the R.A.C., the Chamber of Commerce, ferent views have been expressed. I say the Royal Australian College of Surgeons, once again that I have no quarrel what- and Thre West Australian newspaper. soever with traffic officers who are doing an excellent job. However I consider that Before I conclude I wish to say that I did it is most desirable to have one authority not Previously mention the association of and that this one authority should be the the Royal Australian College of Surgeons, police. For this reason, I commend the headed by Mr. Bedbrook and Mr. Stokes. Bill to the House. Mr. MacKin non stated that they were pontificating and that people, expert in Question put and&a division taken with one field, should not enter another. the following result- By virtue of the f act that these two Ayes- gentlemen are executive officers of the Hon. 1%. F. Claughton Hon. J. L. Hunt Traumna Committee of Hon. D. X. Dana. Hon. H. T. Leeson the organisation, Hon. S. J. Dellar Hon. H. H . C. Stubbs and because of their association with; Maok. J. Dolan Hlon. W. F. Willesee simnilar organisations in other States, they Hon. Lyia Elliott Hon. W. B. Withers Hon. Clive Griffiths Hon. H. Thomps'on know more about traffic accidents and (Teler their results than any member in this Noes-i?7 House. I am prepared to bow to their 'Ron. C. Rt. Abbey Hon. 1. Ci. Medcalf knowledge. They wvere, of course, respon- Ron, N. E. Baxter Ron. T. 0. Perry sible for the setting up of Shenton Park Ron. G. W. Berry Hon. S. T. J1. Thompson where they see the results of accidents aInd Hon. V. J. Ferry Ron, J. Mi. Thomson Hon. A. P. Gr~ffith Ron. F. R. White where they make inquiries from those in- 'Ron, J. Reitman Hon. F. D. Willmott volved as to the cause of the accidents and Hon. L_ A. Logan Hon. D. J, Wordsworth how they could be prevented. Hon. Ci. C. MacKinnlon Hon. R. J. L. Williams Hon. N. McNeill (Teller) The Hon. 0. C. MacKinnon: Who do you think helped them to set up Shenton Question thus negatived. Park? Bill defeated. [Tuesday, 5 September, 1972] 295795

LAW REFORM COMMISSION BILL (3) What was the enrolment at the respective schools mentioned in Receipt and First Reading (2) when this facility was pro- Bill received from the Assembly; and, on vided? motion by The Hon. W. F. Willesee (Leader of the House), read a first time. (4) What is the present enrolment at Kalamunda, high school and what House adjourned at 9.50 p~m. is the anticipated number for the start of 1973? Mr. T. D. EVANS replied: (1) Yes, at the Belmont and Tuart Hill senior high schools. In addition ifnilat Iur Awirutb lu halls will be incorporated in the Tuesday, thc 5th September, 1972 designs of the new Carine, Kelma- scott and North Lake high schools. The SPEAKER (Mr. Norton) took the (2) (a) Separate halls-- Chatir at 4.30 p.m., and read prayers. Perth Modern school-l1l. Eastern Goldfields senior high BILLS (2): ASSENT school-iS 14. Message from the Governor received and Northam senior high school- read notifying assent to the following 1921. Bills:- Bunbury senior high school- 1923. 1. Supply Bill. Albany senior high school- 2. Bulk Handling Act Amendment Bill. 1925. Governor Stirling senior high COUNTRY HIGH SCHOOL HOSTELS school-1956. AUTHORITY ACT AMENDMENT BILL John Curtin senior high school-SSO. Message: Appropriations Applecross senior high school Message from the Governor received and -1958. read recommending appropriations for Hollywood senior high school the purposes of the Bill. -1958. (b) Covered assembly areas- QUESTIONS (22): ON NOTICE Balcatta senior high school- 1ALBANY REGIONAL HOSPITAL 1967. South Fremantle senior high Blood Bank school-1967. Dr. DADOtJR, to the Minister for Rossmoyne senior high school Health: -1968. (1) Has he reviewed the site for the Como high sihool-1969. new blood bank at Albany Re- (c) Halls incorporated in new gional Hospital? schools- (2) If so, what is the decision? Morley high school-OVO. (3) If not, when will the review be Thornlie high school-1971. completed? Rockingham high school- 1971. Mr. DAVIES replied: Hedland high school-19 72. (1) to (3) The review is in progress (3) Applecross, senior high school- but no date can be given for com- 1,476. pletion. Hollywood senior high school--842. Belmont senior high school-,381. 2. HIGH SCHOOLS muart Hill senior high school- Hall-Gymnasiums 1,270. Mr. THOMPSON, to the Minister for All other halls have been built Education: when the school was established and therefore enrolments at the (1) is it intended to build a haUl/ time were not complete. gymnasium at any State high school this financial year; if so, at (4) 1,060. which school or schools? 1,282. (2) Which State high schools have Mr. O'Neil: I think the date of 1.95a been provided with a hall/gymna- for the Applecross senior high slum, and when were they built? school is incorrect.