Seanad Éireann

Vol. 271 Friday, No. 11 16 October 2020 DÍOSPÓIREACHTAÍ PARLAIMINTE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES SEANAD ÉIREANN TUAIRISC OIFIGIÚIL—Neamhcheartaithe (OFFICIAL REPORT—Unrevised) Insert Date Here 16/10/2020A00100Gnó an tSeanaid - Business of Seanad � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � 2 16/10/2020B00200An tOrd Gnó - Order of Business � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � 3 16/10/2020N00500Commission of Investigation (Mother and Baby Homes and certain related Matters) Records, and another Mat- ter, Bill 2020: Second Stage (Resumed) � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � 24 16/10/2020P00500Shannon Group: Motion (Resumed)� � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � 25 16/10/2020Q00300Standing Orders: Motion � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � 29 16/10/2020Q00600Select Committee on the Withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union: Motion � � � � � � � � � � 29 16/10/2020R00050Regional Technical Colleges (Amendment) Bill 2017: Restoration to Order Paper � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � 30 16/10/2020R00200Business of Seanad � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � 30 16/10/2020T00100Commission of Investigation (Mother and Baby Homes and certain related Matters) Records, and another Mat- ter, Bill 2020: Committee and Remaining Stages � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � 30 SEANAD ÉIREANN Dé hAoine, 16 Deireadh Fómhair 2020 Friday, 16 October 2020 Chuaigh an Cathaoirleach i gceannas ar 10�30 a�m� Machnamh agus Paidir. Reflection and Prayer. 16/10/2020A00100Gnó an tSeanaid - Business of Seanad 16/10/2020A00200An Cathaoirleach: I draw Members’ attention to a change in the procedure for divisions� At the meeting of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges during the week I outlined that there has been a slippage, as we all know, in the observance of social distancing in the Chamber and outside the Chamber� It was agreed by the groups and the Whips that when a division is called all Members in the Chamber will remain in their seats and not move around the Cham- ber, and that as Members enter the Chamber they would take a seat automatically� Senators will note there are 15 seats on the outside� Those seats should be taken by Members when they come into the Chamber� There are also 21 seats in the front and there are other seats available in the Gallery� In the event of more than 45 Members coming into the Chamber for a division, the surplus will be asked to leave, but the doors will not be locked� A roll-call vote will then be taken and the Senators on the outside will be asked to leave to allow the Senators outside the Chamber to come in to record their vote� I note people are wearing masks and I welcome that but the social distancing rules apply to everybody equally� We have seen comments in the newspapers about what happened on budget day, and also comments by judges on what is happening in the courts and on officers of the courts as well. It is very difficult to keep observing the rules, but we must observe the rules. Let us be honest, the reality is there are 60 Members of the Seanad, and the chances that none of us will get Covid-19 are fairly limited� The chances are very low that one Member will not get Covid-19� The concern all Members have is the protection of their families, their communities and themselves� I do not want them to leave here and bring it home to their families and for somebody to get sick from this Chamber� There will be a lot of divisions today� I urge Mem- bers to observe the agreement that we came to at the Committee on Procedure and Privileges that we would observe social distancing for voting and outside this Chamber as well� I ask the Leader to outline the Order of Business� 16/10/2020B00200An tOrd Gnó - Order of Business 2 16 October 2020 16/10/2020B00300Senator Regina Doherty: The Order of Business is No� 1, Commission of Investigation (Mother and Baby Homes and certain related Matters) Records, and another Matter, Bill 2020 – Second Stage, postponed division, to be taken on the conclusion of the Order of Business and Committee and Remaining Stages to be taken at 12 noon, or 15 minutes after the conclusion of No� 4, whichever is the later; No� 24, motion 5, re the Shannon Group, postponed division, to be taken on the conclusion of the postponed division on No. 1; No. 2, motion re the fifth report of the Seanad Committee on Procedure and Privileges, to be taken on the conclusion of the postponed division on No� 24, without debate; No� 3, motion re the establishment of the Seanad Special Select Committee on the Withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union, to be taken on the conclusion of No� 2, without debate; No� 4, motion re restoration of Bill to the Order Paper, to be taken on the conclusion of No� 3, without debate� 16/10/2020B00400Senator Fiona O’Loughlin: I was very saddened during the week, as I have no doubt all of us were, when we got an email from Senator Norris telling us that, sadly, Cathal Martin had passed away� During the debate on Senator Norris’s Bill three weeks ago, he and Senator Casey spoke very passionately and compassionately about Cathal and the difficulties he had in life. On behalf of my grouping, I extend our deepest sympathy to Les, Linda, Ciaran and Holly, and acknowledge the incredible work Les has done on the National Screening Advisory Commit- tee Bill. We commit to doing all that we can to support the Bill. It is very difficult for any one of us to lose any member of a family but to lose a child is especially traumatic� I cannot even begin to imagine the great sense of loss and grief the Martin family have� In saying that, I also think of all those who have lost children, especially during this national week of child loss and the fact that yesterday was Pregnancy and Child Loss Remembrance Day� It is an incredibly difficult time for those who are pregnant. It is a very welcome event in people’s lives but our thoughts go to those who perhaps have had miscarriages previously or who are at a difficult stage of pregnancy. In particular during the Covid crisis, we all want mothers and new babies to be as healthy as possible and to make sure every precaution is taken to ensure they do not contract Covid� However, I believe some leniency could be shown, especially at the time of the 20-week scan, in order that partners would be allowed to accompany pregnant women to hospital for the screening� I urge the Leader to take that on board� I am aware that it has been raised here previously� The second issue I wish to raise concerns respect and loyalty� I am from Kildare and I am very close to the Defence Forces family and I have been involved with their issues for many years� The budget gave an extra €32 million to the Defence Forces, which was very important� Much of that will go to capital funding and €10�5 million is to support and improve pay and conditions but we still have a journey to go� In talking about respect and loyalty, I wish to speak about the respect and loyalty the State should show to those who have served this country both at home and abroad� That is most important� Senator Craughwell and others in the House raised the siege of Jadotville in 1961 in the Congo, five days of heroism and courage by 155 men, led by Commandant Quinlan� As we know, Commandant Quinlan recommended that 33 of these men would be awarded medals, five with the highest honour. Only eight of these 33 still survive� It is incumbent on the State to ensure that those eight individuals are awarded the medals and that the others are awarded posthumous medals� It would mean so much to their families and to their comrades in the Defence Forces� It would be beyond tragic if that did not happen� The final issue I wish to raise today relates to justice, which is very important to all of us, as is ensuring that the justice system is fair and equal and that people do not lose out� While I am 3 Seanad Éireann conscious that speaking about judges is a sensitive issue at the moment, I wish to----- (Interruptions). 16/10/2020B00500An Cathaoirleach: When Members are speaking in the Chamber, addressing the Leader and asking questions, or even during debate I ask others not to engage in conversation� If Mem- bers wish to engage in conversation they must step outside the Chamber� 16/10/2020B00600Senator Fiona O’Loughlin: I draw the attention of the Leader to justice, which is hugely important to all of us, specifically District Court area 25, County Kildare. In this District Court we have twice the number of cases that are in many other jurisdictions, so we have a situation where cases dealing with important matters such as child custody, access and maintenance are not being heard� I know of a particular situation where 15 months after a child has been born a dad is still waiting for a court case to make sure he has access� That is completely wrong� There is an urgent need for another judge to be appointed to District Court area 25� I ask that the Leader would take that on board to ensure we can deal with the serious consequences that are evident in terms of the impact on the service users� 16/10/2020B00700Senator Michael McDowell: First,

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