Proceedings of the 2010 Delta Symposium

August 19-21 Northwestern State University

Culture Change & Continuity in the Delta Region

A scholarly conversation between researchers and members of the folk communities in the Mississippi River Delta Region

Edited by Pete Gregory, Shane Rasmussen, and Sheila Richmond Introduction by Pete Gregory Designed by James Christopher Callahan and Sheila Richmond Transcriptions by Sheila Richmond

©2011 Louisiana Folklife Center Publications

Funded by: National Park Service’s Delta Initiative, the Cane River Creole National Historical Park, and Northwestern State University of Louisiana.

The views and conclusions contained in this document/event are those of the authors/participants and should not be interpreted as representing the opinions or policies of the U.S. government. Mention of trade names or commercial products does not constitute their endorsement by the U.S. government.

Map courtesy of National Park Service Lower Mississippi Region Delta Initiative

Delta Symposium Introduction Dr. Pete Gregory

In 2010 we decided to invite people of anger, disappointment, and cries for help. from the Delta Regions to a series of conver- One young man asked elders for advice on sations about the people and place. We dis- how to keep his language, Creole French, cussed a deliberate effort to bring community working for him because college had not people together with a minimal group of re- helped! Others inquired about how American lated scholars. This was intended as a sample Indian people were trying to ―re-connect‖ the of Delta culture, in hopes it would open elders and the youth. Answers sometimes other, more specific conversations. It would were careful, people walking softly through serve as a compass for future research, com- the multi-cultural experiences of the Delta munity action, and preservation efforts. Region. Trying to say what needed saying We hoped that all these folks would without the anger, disappointment and frus- talk about who and what they were. It sort of trations stopping the conversation. worked. Panels of people: American Indians, Through it all comes some flashing African Americans, Creoles, Mississippi insights into what people did or did not know River Atchafalaya communities, and the about the diversified lifestyles of the Missis- ―new‖ populations: East Indians, Latinos, and sippi Delta. Chinese all came. People from the National We have transcribed these discus- Park Service, State Folklife program office, sions, sometimes in English, others scattered universities, and local communities joined in. with at least three American Indian languages Funding for travel from the Delta Ini- and Cajun French. We feel these transcrip- tiative of the National Park Service helped tions express better than any edited scholar- with peoples‘ ability to show up and to talk. ship the range of emotions felt currently by We set no problems, no tasks, and saw our the folks in the Delta, as well as give insights jobs as just people to introduce the panels, into the many cultural variations that people perhaps asking questions, perhaps not. It was live in the Delta. Reading these conversations informal, and the participants went in direc- will leave the Delta on your mind for a good tions we often had not anticipated. while. We invited musicians to play or dance This meeting took place on the heels – by informances to give musicality a chance of two terrible hurricanes that left awful eco- – another mode of sharing. nomic conditions in the states and regions, It is hoped that the reader can some- and while people were anticipating the worst how participate, albeit serendipitously, in the from the oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico. moment of this gathering. Welcome to the Some conversations went straight to Delta! those issues. What was being lost – e.g. the state supported folklife apprenticeships, the Perspectives lower coastal fisheries – while others were The Choctaw, Jena Band of Choctaw, more optimistic. The wealth accumulating Chitimacha, Alabama-Coushatta and Tunica- from American Indian casinos is building Biloxi Communities are among the more museums, funding language programs, and prosperous, optimistic communities in the opening tribal activism re-cultural heritage. Delta. Casinos, or the hopes for a casino, of- Sometimes we waxed a bit nostalgic, remi- fer them options they have not had since the niscing about different times, memories European invasion. After generations of pov- mostly. These discussions also saw flashes erty and losses of land and resources, it is heartening to see not only increased prosper- miss the point a lot. Creole — more than the ity, but also each community diligently work- language — was, like the American Indian ing at sovereignty and the maintenance of cultures — making a run towards, not away tradition. Art, and language particularly, from, survival. Advising one young man in have been realized and appreciated, and posi- the audience who explained he had difficulty tive efforts made to keep these viable. with speaking French, Mrs. Theresa Walter Celestine pointed out that Thibodeaux advised him to ―relax, and use tribal people know best how to do tribal the language. Don‘t worry, speak it to your- things, like ways to affiliate younger people self. Just use it!‖ Creoles brought a com- with more traditional elders. John Paul Dar- plexity to the Delta from urban ―returnees,‖ den noted the Chitimacha Tribe‘s Rosetta to New Orleans urbanites, and the prairie, Stone program- using modern technology to rural, and swamp populations in South Lou- teach the harbinger of culture, language. The isiana. Their enclaves in the Red River re- youngest Native American participant, Jean gion (Cane River) were linked to Chicago, Luc Pierite, discussed getting the majority Dallas, and Los Angeles. They all partici- Americans to recognize American Indians as pated in rejuvenation of family by visiting people, not as some abstraction or stereotype. back and forth. Teaching seemed the task of In essence, stressing that they are alive and the whole community, and the Delta became well, not a lot of losers trying to make a the repository for language and tradition, a comeback. living culture pumping hard to survive and The Creoles started off entirely in adapt. their language. A moderator, Sheila Rich- The Anglo-American session led to mond, had to stop them and ask they speak vibrant discussions of the ―New South‖ com- English to those not fluent in Creole or stan- munities like Ferriday, Louisiana. Ms. Judith dard French. They really did not want to do Bingham brought the perspective of the white that — they wanted to stress their goal of sharecroppers moving to a sawmill and rail- keeping Creole French, their medium for road town. That led the cross-fertilization of maintenance and survival. The elders knew black and Creole traditions — country, blues, that language and used it daily, and younger and finally rockabilly resulted. Music is still people lamented access to it. Tracey Colson evolving in the Delta. pointed out that she, like her peers, came to Marcy Frantom brought in the music the culture inside out since she lacked the and culture of the ―hill‖ people along the language. The Thibodeauxs, Goldman and margins of the flood plains. Upland Anglo- Teresa urged younger people to let them Saxon traditions – new movements like Blue- teach, help them learn the culture. ―We‘ll grass music – again show viability attracting teach.‖ They invited people to ―come to their young musicians to their elders. Younger house‖ and speak. Goldman, a famous Cre- people lament the loss of the vast swamps ole musician, talked about music as the vehi- and whole ecosystems – all wiped out in their cle for interesting and teaching the younger lifetimes. Creoles language and culture. He noted he The African Americans, in some ways was disappointed when the young musicians more diverse than their Creole cousins, could sang words they did not understand! Sur- talk about some of the same topics. The rounded by Acadians, the older and more cul- youngest anthropologist, Rolonda Teal, turally and racially diverse Creole culture voiced anger that some communities were was and still is less often recognized publicly ―invisible.‖ Blacks, but also Hispanics, found in Louisiana, and non-Creoles seemed to themselves without acknowledgment. Dr. Joyce Jackson discussed the community of to the arts, and the irony of the Old South Fazendeville, displaced by part of Jean La- persists. Blues is a slowly changing medium, fitte National Park and re-organized only to and contrary to Zydeco and Cajun has not be shattered by Katrina. The focus of their become a youthful expression. Still, the plantation community‘s Battle Ground school experiences of Rivers are filled with Church seemed to hold them together. Now hope, even a little joy. His kids love the in the aftermath of all their troubles Dr. Jack- blues. son finds them united in efforts to survive. The ―New Populations,‖ Maida Blues musicians, like Hezekiah Early and Owens‘ term for them, were represented by ―Lil‘ Poochie,‖ the classic arts representa- people from three such populations: East In- tives from the Delta, commented on the dian, Chinese, and Latino. Dr. Rasmussen‘s changing scenes of regional life. The down- lead opened that discussion, but the panelists turn in the economy at Natchez, Mississippi, soon went in their own directions. closure of the paper mill, a Johns-Manville, Members of the Hispanic group, Irma and a tire plant left the Black community Rodriguez – a new Mexican resident – and there in economically dire straits. The music Martha Cechini Walker – a Delta plantations- venues changed. Hezekiah Early commented Bolivian plantations-Spanish-Latina – were on the shift to European ―gigs‖ and remi- soon comparing experiences. Irma Rodri- nisced about the drum and fife parades at guez brokers for a whole community of Anna Bottoms when he was younger. Such Mexican people working in the commercial parading has virtually disappeared, but high gardens of Forest Hill, Louisiana, and Martha school band parades enabled black style to Walker, raised on two plantations, one in remain. Hardrick Rivers, a high school mu- Tensas Parish in the Delta and the other near sic teacher, commented on the ―coming and Cochabamba, Bolivia, works with foreign going‖ of music in the Natchitoches, Louisi- language (Spanish) speaking children and ana area. One sheriff had all the clubs and families in the Natchitoches, Louisiana area. music heard in the 1940‘s and ‗50‘s virtually Language, again, quickly rose to the fore. shut down. Recent tourism and the presence Ms. Rodriguez comments on helping her of the Cane River Heritage Area and the Na- neighbors via her grocery/restaurant, turned tional Park on Cane River have helped re- restaurant, with all sorts of linguistic and so- vitalize the music. One traditional blues club cial needs. She also noted their ―Rocking the in Natchitoches has survived, and weekly Baby‖ custom at Christmas and their attempts performances keep it lively. Bands have at keeping Mexican traditions alive. Her son, changed, with white musicians taking to the a recent L.S.U. graduate, and her daughter blues, and bands are often integrated as are have kept their language and traditions intact the clubs. Young people, with teachers like while adapting to a thoroughly Americanized Hardrick, are beginning to appreciate the life. Ms. Walker‘s family worked at keeping depth and range of blues and jazz. Peoples‘ her connections to Spanish language when appreciation of music in the black and Creole she was brought to the Delta as a child. She communities make it a viable tool for teach- married and raised her children in Valencia, ing and maintaining African American tradi- Spain. Her Spanish speaking family now in- tional arts. cludes in-laws from the Canary Islands, Mex- While Rolonda Teal‘s notification of ico, and Spain as well as some Bolivian con- need and neglect calls attention to inequities nections. The stereotypical Mexican mi- and needs, the Natchez and Natchitoches grants fell away rapidly, and the diversity of situations mark the continuing contributions the Spanish culture of the Delta became read- ily apparent. Emphasis was on the family. or Greenville, Mississippi, the families who Family, more than any other cultural element, run the Chinese grocery stores have produced seems to hold the Hispanic cultures together. engineers, doctors, and nurses. Some had Language, religion and the wider community even sailed to China as officers in the U.S. all gave way to family. It likely is significant Navy! Their parents related to the experi- that the Hispanic panelists were women, and ences the Sunshine Dancers are still trying to as likely that is reflected in a family sort of maintain and share. Maybe their kids do not, orientation. However, the roles of the Latina at least not in the same ways. women as entrepreneurs, teachers, and com- We had, until circumstances inter- munity church leaders clearly showed what vened, hoped to have participants from the may be new roles for Hispanic women in the Thai and Vietnamese who are now part of the Delta. Delta. Efforts in that community have led to The two East Indian participants – Dr. the survival of their Lakeside community Chandan Sharma and Pinki Diwan – were, near New Orleans. Unfortunately, none of again, women. In this case both were upper the community leaders nor the anthropolo- middle class, well-educated, women. Both gists-folklorists who work there were able to worked outside the home in education and join this symposium. Their efforts at defend- research. They stressed their families‘ inter- ing their community from both ecological est in education, strongly encouraging their and developmental pressures have attracted children in the professions. One person en- national attention. quired of these ladies if they were not of a The Mississippi River – the ultimate select group of East Indians; the speaker had source of the Delta – and its tributaries have worked with East Indian deck hands and had always supported a variety of fisherfolk. a different perspective. The ladies agreed, With only a handful of studies available it and the conversation shifted slightly to the seemed a good time to re-visit with them, political values of East Indians in the U.S., along with the folklorists and anthropologists not just in the Delta. The discussion between that study them. Ray Brassieur had sug- these women, like that between the two His- gested a young man from Avoyelles Parish panic women, reflects some new traditions, — a boat-builder, a fisherman and a hunter and the emphasis on family and a broad range — Dale Bordelon. Their experiences repre- of adaptations are enabling their traditions to sented the present and the recent past. Pete survive. An interesting cross-cultural discus- Gregory, who had worked with fishing com- sion about raising children pointed out that it munities on the Black and lower Red Rivers was o.k. to have kids visit over night at East in the 1960s, brought a more historic perspec- Indian or Hispanic homes, but not the re- tive. It was apparent that the communities verse. They were adjusting to new positions. were disappearing. Sports-fishing was re- Even so, the parents felt stress. placing commercial fishing, and widespread The Chinese all came from one area catfish and crawfish ―farming‖ were replac- in South Louisiana near Baton Rouge. They ing the wild products from the rivers, lakes, represented a group of young, first generation and bayous. Efforts at maintenance were be- Chinese. It is import, they say, to keep to- ginning. Seines, almost disappearing in the gether, to do traditional dances and to explain 1960s, were coming back to catch bait/food who and what they are. Their almost home- for crawfish, and the rise of unemployment sick discussion of their dance and costumes was opening markets for gar, buffalo fish, marks the beginning of a new generation and Drum (Gou). The younger fisherman, coming to the Delta. Up river near Ferriday also a woodcarver and boat builder, farmed more than fished. Brassieur pointed out the even the state folklorist – were without any shifts in demographics on the lower Atchafa- funding, so we were able, at least, to help laya. Gregory noted the advent of vast land- them with travel funds. clearing by corporate farms in the upper Such gatherings stimulate others, and Delta and the spread of soy bean farming had in this case we think were encouraging to virtually destroyed areas on the Black and those of us post-Katrina, struck with draco- lower Red Rivers. Herbicides and pesticides nian cuts in state program budgets, wiped out had led to a real ecological crisis, the dire by massive corporate land-clearing. Had we health impacts affecting both fishermen and known the BP Oil Spill was our next misad- farmers. The recent folk occupations: fish- venture we might have waited. The history of ing, moss-gathering, crawfish and turtle trap- this corner of the vast Delta is but a micro- ping, alligator hunting persist and are even cosm of the whole. Yet, we still feel this lit- making a slight renaissance. Still, the envi- tle conversation encouraged us, made us want ronmental situation left little to be optimistic to do more, save more, and take steps to do about. The young participant was actually a all that together. The voices were loud and revivalist, working at maintaining what he largely optimistic, and left us feeling the saw going away, trying to ―hold on.‖ Cajuns Delta was still a remarkable place. As you particularly were forced to abandon a life- hear or read these conversations we think you style many regret leaving. Dance halls in will understand. towns are few, educational levels are low, and these cultural and ecological changes are even destroying some small fish market Acknowledgements towns like Jonesville in Catahoula Parish. Of We wish to thank: The Lower Mississippi all the discussions this was the most depress- Region Delta Initiative, the National Park ing. The fact that people kept with the strug- Service; Cane River Creole National Histori- gle was the only hopeful thing about it. One cal Park; Jean Lafitte National Park and Pre- by-product of this symposium was a result of serve; Cane River National Heritage Area for this session. It led to an ad hoc meeting at their financial aid- Grant #5720-10-0002. the NSU Louisiana Studies Conference in September and created a call for a wider con- We especially are grateful to Laura Gates, ference to include the Katrina/Rita impacted Superintendent of the Cane River Creole Na- coastal communities and to seek a wider, per- tional Historical Park, and Allison Peña of haps more activist approach to preserving this Jean Lafitte National Park and Preserve for aspect of Delta heritage. all their encouragement and help with ―connections‖ to Delta people. Conclusions and Hopes The New Orleans voices were repre- Special thanks to NSU: sented by Dr. Joyce Jackson, and the post-  President, Dr. Randall Webb Katrina city still kept some things from hap-  Provost & Vice-President of Academic & pening away from the city. The timing of the Student Affairs, Dr. Lisa Abney funding kept National Park Service personnel  Office of Research and Sponsored Pro- limited because of expenses. The Delta Re- grams: Priscilla Kilcrease & Carla How- gional funds were not available to them as ell Federal employees. There was the problem  Department of Languages & Communica- of academics with little free time. State tion agencies personnel – museum caretakers, and  Department of Criminal Justice, History, & Social Science Lee, Dayna Bowker and H. F. Gregory eds.  Office of Business Affairs: Maureen 2006 The Work of Tribal Hands: McCarty, Rita Graves, Buford Grappe Southeastern Indian Cane Basketry  Louisiana Folklife Center: Sharon Sweet- NSU Press, Natchitoches, LA ers, Sheila Richmond Spitzer, Nicholas R. ed. 1985 Dr. Dayna Lee, Maida Owens, Dr. Susan Louisiana Division of the Arts Roach, and Dr. Ray Brassieur were especially Folklife Program., Baton Rouge. helpful, bringing their professional and per- sonal views of the Delta. Sylestine, Cora with Heather K. Hardy and Timothy Montlen 1993. Dictionary of We regret that after hard efforts Ronald the Alabama Language. Lewis, Guiyuan Wang, and Laura Westbrook (Contributors: Ivey Battise, Dorcas did not get to attend, but we appreciate their Bullock, Vincent Celestine, Wanda efforts to work and preserve Delta culture. Poncho, and James Sylestine, assisted by Jack Martin) University of Texas Press, Austin. Suggested References Byington, Cyrus. (John R. Swanton and Valdman, Albert et al, eds. 2010 Dictionary Henry S. Halbert, eds.) 1915. A of Louisiana French as Spoken in Dictionary of the Choctaw Cajun, Creole, and American Indian Language. Bureau of American Communities. University Press of Ethnology Bulletin: 46, Washington, Mississippi, Jackson. D.C.

Kimball, Geoffrey D. (assisted by Bel Abbey, Martha John, Ruth Poncho). 1994. Koasati Dictionary. University of Nebraska Press. Lincoln and London. Table of Contents

Welcome ...... 3

Session I — American Indian Communities: Keeping On Keeping On .... 11

Informance: Saving Songs & Stories ...... 38

Session II — The Creole Community: Continuity & Renaissance ...... 39

Informance: Creole La La Music ...... 60

Session III — Blues Along the River: Natchez to Ninth Ward ...... 61

Informance: Learning & Listening: The Blues ...... 89

Session IV — People from the Hills, Rivers, & Swamps ...... 91

Informance: Picking & Singing ...... 119

Session V — Some New Populations ...... 121

Informance: Sunshine Chinese Dancers ...... 146

Introduction

1 2 Welcome Participants: Dr. Lisa Abney, Provost, Northwestern State University (NSU) Laura Gates, Cane River Creole National Historical Park Maida Owens, Louisiana Division of the Arts Folklife Program Dr. Shane Rasmussen, Louisiana Folklife Center, NSU Dr. Randall Webb, President, NSU

Shane Rasmussen: I want to welcome you to shop in Lyon, Mississippi. To me that trip the 2010 Delta Symposium. I hate to break was always so very enjoyable because of the up the conversation because conversation is expanse of the Delta. Of course at that time why we are here today. This is a wonderful because of the beauty the Delta, because cot- activity: an example of collaboration at its ton was king. In those days, cotton, as you best. Everyone here is a VIP. It will be a know, was a major cash crop in this area. It chance for all of us to talk. I want to intro- is still grown, but it is not the cash crop that it duce myself. I‘m Dr. Shane Rasmussen with was. Just as in life itself, lots of things have the Louisiana Folklife Center. The co- changed. The Delta has changed; the Red director of the symposium is Dr. Pete Greg- River Delta has changed, but they are regions ory of Williamson Museum and NSU for the packed with history, packed with cultural dif- past 45 years. I‘d like to introduce Dr. Ran- ferentiations. Frankly, I‘m going to hang dall Webb, president of NSU. around for a while to learn a little bit more about the Delta, the Mississippi Delta. Randall Webb: Thank you. Good morning. You‘ll find that at Northwestern in It‘s such a privilege to welcome each of you Natchitoches, one thing we do is strive to cre- to Northwestern‘s lovely campus and to this ate effective partnerships. The university conference which we feel is very important works pretty closely with the city, with the and will shed a lot of light on an important parish, with the Louisiana Creole Heritage region of the state, and as far as that‘s con- Center here, and, of course, the folks that cerned on various cultures within this state, carry on all of our good work of our Louisi- not to mention Mississippi. When I grew up, ana Folklife Center. You name it among Fed- I grew up in Haynesville about on the Arkan- eral agencies, we are blessed to have the Na- sas line. It was not unusual for my daddy to tional Park, the Cane River Creole National come in to a movie theater on a Saturday af- Park, the National Heritage Area. You can ternoon and say, ―Your mother and I have just keep naming groups, the organizations; decided we are going to go to Clarksdale.‖ I today we have great representation from the don‘t know if any of you know what that Natchitoches Area Chamber of Commerce. means. That means we go get in a car, proba- We all work together effectively and coop- bly, at best an early 1950s Plymouth or eratively to try to do good and better things Chrysler or something like that. We‘d go for the whole. So it is a pleasure to introduce through two-lane roads and cross at Hamburg you. If you haven‘t been with us before, I [AR], Lake Village and through there, and hope you get a glimpse of this kind of coop- finally to Greenville, and then up the Delta of erative spirit. Thank you. We are just here to Mississippi to Clarksdale. Our main reason help. for going wasn‘t to stay in Clarksdale, but to visit Ms. Parchmen who owned an antique Lisa Abney: I‘ll just echo what Dr. Webb

3 said. I‘m Lisa Abney. I‘m the Provost and Buenos Dias (Spanish) Vice-President of Academic and Student Af- fairs at Northwestern. I am delighted to see Those are only a few of the languages from this conference. Like all of our other confer- the Delta. Welcome to the 2010 Delta Sym- ences that we host at Northwestern, we think posium. I‘m not sure that my pronunciation it is so important for us to have a great oppor- was too good, so please forgive me. tunity like this for us to exchange ideas, to Cheryl Smith: Chokema! Chokema! share new information and research in this Chokema! [Good] era of skinny budgets and budget cuts, espe- cially funding for the humanities which has Gates: I tried to say ―good morning‖ in Bi- had lots of cuts. It is important that we come loxi, Choctaw, Quapaw, Chitimacha, Caddo, together and work hard and work together to Alabama, Chinese, of course you heard the host these kinds of events. We appreciate all French, too, and Spanish. I‘m sure I‘ve for- of our sponsors and all of our folks who gotten someone. Oh, ―Aloha.‖ [Short ex- worked together to put this together. Pete and change in Hawaiian here] Shane, you guys have done amazing work. I Welcome to the Delta Symposium. was looking at the agenda, and I want to stay For those of you who don‘t know, we do here all day today and tomorrow, too. Unfor- have a small group of Hawaiians in the Delta. tunately, I have to sneak out and go to an- That‘s why Max Turner is waving his hand other meeting and give a greeting there. I out there. just wanted to welcome you and let you know I‘m Laura Gates. I‘m superintendent that I am so happy to have you on our cam- at Cane River Creole National Historical pus. I‘m looking forward to seeing you to- Park. The park includes two French Creole night at the reception and maybe later today cotton plantations that are down Cane River – at one of the sessions. Have a wonderful Oakland Plantation and the outbuildings at time while you are here, and we look forward Magnolia Plantation. These were set aside by to hopefully seeing you next year. Thank Congress in 1994 because of the national sig- you. nificance of their resources. I do have a few park brochures. If you are interested, please Rasmussen: Thank you so much Dr. Webb come down and visit. If you are from the area and Dr. Abney. I‘d like to introduce now and haven‘t visited us in a while, please come Laura Gates with the National Park Service. I back and visit. We‘re constantly undergoing should mention that we are so in debt to these change and progress. We‘d love to have you guys. Without the Park Service, this would come down there. not be happening, so thank you. My national park is within the Cane River National Heritage Area which was also Laura Gates: Thank you, Shane. Good set aside by Congress because of its cultural morning. landscape, because in this very small geo- Bonjour (French) graphic region there are very distinctive fea- He he (Biloxi) tures and very distinctive cultures that created Halitoh (Choctaw) the shape and the hand of human beings on Ha way (Quapaw) the landscape. You can sense that as you Waŝ tog’eé(Chitimacha) drive through it, as you leave Natchitoches Koo ah aht (Caddo) and head south along Cane River and back in Chick mah (Alabama} along the river. You can see everything from Ni hao ma (Chinese/mandarin) arpent lines which are the old French land

4 divisions, that sometimes you see huge his- tance aspects are supposed to highlight cul- toric trees and the fence rows. You‘ll see the tural conservation, documentation of the cul- shape of Cane River itself. You‘ll see his- tures, and resource stewardship. There has toric structures that don‘t really feel like so been a small amount of funding that the di- many other historic structures that you might rectors of the National Park Service have set see in other parks in the United States or even aside annually since 1994 in furtherance of other parks in the southeast. These are all the Lower Mississippi Delta Region Initia- adapted to this local place, to the climate, to tives. These are discretionary funds that the the available materials, and to the available director of the National Park Service still technology. That‘s one of the key parts of continues to send to the Delta for distribution what makes the Delta, the Delta. primarily to National Park Service partners Let‘s go back to the Delta Initiatives for special programs like this one. Annually again that helped to fund this conference. In the National Park Service oversees about 1994, Congress passed legislation that pro- $225,000 worth of grants and technical assis- vided very broad authorities for recognizing, tance. Projects that we‘ve funded that many celebrating and highlighting the cultures of of you might be familiar with include two the Lower Mississippi [River] Delta. The symposia that we‘ve had over the past couple legislation, called the Lower Mississippi of years on Southeastern Indian Basketry. Delta Region Initiatives, included opportuni- One was on Southeastern Indian split cane ties for programs in the seven states of the basketry, and we helped fund this with a Delta. And the states are Louisiana, Missis- number of partners including the Forest Ser- sippi, Arkansas, Tennessee, also southeastern vice, Northwestern, and Dayna and Pete Missouri, southern Illinois and western Ken- probably can come up. . . . tucky. So even up a little bit further north, all those other places that edge right along the Dayna Lee: The Regional Folklife Program, Mississippi River but are geologically part of Williamson Museum, Louisiana Division of the Mississippi Delta. the Arts. The legislation provided some initial funding for preserving historic structures at Gates: Thank you. I can‘t remember all the historically black colleges and universities in partners in each of these projects. What Dr. the Delta region. It provided funding for a Webb had mentioned earlier – partnership is planning study to assess the resources of the really the key. When we all join together, we Delta and make recommendations for tourism can get an awful lot done. and interpretation. It authorized but did not This was the proceedings of the first provide funding for the development of the Southeastern Indian Basketry Conference Native American heritage corridor and cul- [Holds up book]. We also helped fund an in- tural center for the Delta. It authorized, but ternational symposium on French Colonial did not provide funding for the development Pottery. This was funded with some dollars of an African American heritage corridor and from the National Park Service. It was cultural center in the Delta. Also included hosted by the Tunica Biloxi tribe in Marks- were historic and pre-historic sites surveys ville. It was funded also, I believe, by the and small historic and archaeological re- other partners Dayna had mentioned earlier, source programs. Tucked away in a section including the Folklife Program and others. of the law, too, is the authority for grants and When we joined all of these partners to- technical assistance to further aspects of the gether, we came up with another phenomenal legislation. Those grants and technical assis- project. This one was held, I believe, in 2002

5 in Marksville. We tried to hold it in 2001, but The National Park Service does look the nation had other priorities it was dealing forward to continuing the Delta Initiatives with at that time. We‘ve been trying to spread program in the future. As you heard, this this Delta money around the Delta for some symposium is funded by the Delta Initiatives, time, around this area of the Delta. and I just want everyone, while you are here, Another project that we funded is one please enjoy your time, your fellowship, and that Pete and Dayna worked on considerably the learning that we can all share among each for a considerably long period of time with other. If you‘d like further information about the Caddo Nation of Oklahoma. I have a few how to apply for grants through the Lower brochures on this one too. It resulted in a per- Mississippi Delta Region Initiatives, and we manent exhibit up at the Caddo Nation head- are coming up with a funding cycle for fiscal quarters in Binger, Oklahoma, as well as this. year 2011, please see me. The National Park It was bringing the elders to the places that superintendents in the seven Delta states get they were connected with in Louisiana, Mis- together every November and go through the sissippi, and this part of the country. Dayna projects that have been submitted and try to did. . . . It‘s still up on the web, isn‘t it? find ones that really represent what the legis- lation is trying to accomplish and the best Lee: The website is still up with the Folklife implementation of that legislation. If you Center. They still have the Regional program are interested in any of these things, please up. come and see me, and I can provide you with further information. Enjoy the symposium. Gates: Again, partners not only including the Let‘s have fun. Caddo Nation, Northwestern State Univer- sity, Regional Folklife Program, and proba- Rasmussen: Thank you very much. I‘d like to bly a few others at the state [level]. Didn‘t introduce now Maida Owens from the state the state. . . ? Louisiana Folklife Program.

Lee: The Division of the Arts always funds, Maida Owens: Laura, thank you for acknowl- the Folklife Program. edging the Regional Folklife Program and the Division of the Arts. In case you are not Gates: Again, partnerships. Another project, aware, there is no Regional Folklife Program we‘ve funded a number of projects for the any more. All three Regional Folklorists were Creole Heritage Center here at Northwestern not funded for the last two fiscal years. The State University. One of the early ones was state budget issues have really affected the the Creole Chronicles. The first booklet that Folklife Program profoundly. Somebody a came out of the Creole Chronicles dealt with couple of days ago said, ―Well, I guess you the Creole people on Cane River. There have are back to where you started.‖ It made me been subsequent Creole Chronicles since realize that no, we are worse off than when I then. We‘ve helped to fund some of those started twenty-four years ago. There are no through the Delta Initiative, some through grant programs specifically dedicated to folk- other sources. But, again, it‘s partnerships. life anymore. When I started, I had Folklife Partnerships sometimes with the usual sus- Project Assistance grants, Apprenticeship pects, sometimes we bring in additional sus- grants, Fellowship grants. Later I got Field- pects. Again, joining together, we get an in- work grants when Projects went away, and credible amount accomplished. then, of course, the Regional Folklife Pro- gram. All of those are gone. The only grant

6 program that remains is Stabilization, and a been unable to see due to their very familiar- few folklife organizations receive this type of ity. She observes that ―When I pitched head- grant. And then there is the New Populations foremost into the world I landed in the crib of special initiative for immigrant groups that negroism. From the earliest rocking of my includes grants. The one grant program cut cradle, I had known about the capers Brer that makes me the saddest, and I think will Rabbit is apt to cut and what the Squinch have the most long-term impact, is appren- Owl says from the house top. But it was fit- ticeships. I always felt like that was the most ting me like a tight chemise. I couldn‘t see it important program that I had. Some of you for wearing it. It was only when I was off in may have participated in them. They were college, away from my native surroundings, very simple: help a master pass on a tradition. that I could see myself like somebody else Some had high impact immediately. Others, and stand off and look at my garment. Then I you had to wait a few years or maybe never had to have the spy-glass of Anthropology to for the impact. I can sincerely say that the look through at that‖ (1). Certainly academia apprenticeship program helped Cajun fid- with its accompanying complexly beautiful dling revive. It kept wooden boat building palatial estates composed of theories, concep- alive, and had significant impact on other tra- tions, and, dare we say it, a jargon that is of- ditions, too. Those are two that I feel like we ten spoken with ease by a mere handful of had a profound impact on. experts (and understood by even fewer), has I just want to let y‘all know that offered us much. As it offered Hurston. Aca- things are not great for the Folklife Program. demia, when properly employed, can be the The Division of the Arts is preparing for a means of opening new worlds to us in that we strategic plan. As part of that, the Folklife can conceive of old things in new ways, and Commission is doing a visioning. We realize it does this often by instilling a sense of both that this recession is going to affect all state alterity and depth into that which we had be- budgets for several years to come. This vi- fore dismissed as unimportant. That which sioning process will guide the Division of the was familiar becomes new, strange, complex, Arts and the Folklife Program for many, even, in the words of Olivia in Shakespeare‘s many, many years. The last one we did was Twelfth Night, ―most wondrous‖ (V.i.220). I in 1993, and the one before that was 1979. should interject here that those kissing cous- We don‘t often do this. There is a handout in ins, folklore and anthropology, are often two the back. You may have received it by email. disciplines at the forefront in academia in If you want to receive it by email, just let me raising this kind of awakened consciousness know. We want to hear from you what you in their students of whatever age. feel like public folklore should be in Louisi- However, the problem with academic ana on the state level. We have some really inquiry is that its conversations run the risk of good university programs. We have some becoming insulated, becoming lectures rather strong non-profit organizations. What should than discussions. The danger here is that aca- the state be doing to support folklore? Not a demia can be much like a snake biting its tail, great message, but it‘s important. Thank you. with professors training graduate students who become professors who then train their Rasmussen: In the Introduction to her own graduate students who in time become groundbreaking ethnography, Mules and professors who then teach their own graduate Men, folklorist Zora Neale Hurston credits students, ad infinitum. A potential problem, her academic experience as opening her eyes especially in those Humanities that are based to the riches in her life that before she had upon ethnography such as folklore and an-

7 thropology, is that we can too easily forget more fieldwork (Hawes 67). She knew the that we in the Academy are neither the own- irreplaceable understandings that can result ers nor even the progenitors of cultural and from talking and listening to the folk. The humanistic knowledge (and its own kissing foremost premise of this Symposium is that cousin, wisdom). Simply put, there are times the folk have much to teach us, and that to when humanists in the Academy don‘t ask engage in conversations about Delta cultures, enough questions, and all too often don‘t look where those cultures have been, how those for answers in the right places, from the right cultures have changed, and where those cul- folks. Humanistic knowledge is only properly tures are going now, would be fruitless with- obtained through what should be a continu- out their voices. And for those of us here that ous series of negotiations, of going to the don‘t have the time or means to perform folks themselves, of returning, like Zora her- fieldwork themselves, this Symposium offers self did, to those who know, to those who are the benefit of listening to and, hopefully, tak- actually living in the cultures we wish to ing part in conversations on culture and cul- know more about. Academia helped Zora to tural change in the Delta region. The simple see that she had folklore, that she was, of genius of this Symposium is that we‘ve course, one of the folk herself, and that she brought the folk here, to converse with us. should go to collect it. But it was only by re- This is the next best thing to sitting on Heze- turning to her hometown of Eatonville, Flor- kiah Early‘s porch and talking with him ida, to ―familiar ground‖ (1), to talk to and there, but then again we wouldn‘t all fit onto listen to the folks and neighbors that knew Hezekiah‘s porch. her still as ―just Zora‖ (2), that she came to be able to tell us about ―that which the soul Works Cited lives by‖ (2). So it is with us. Only by talking Hawes, Bess Lomax. ―Happy Birthday, Dear with the folk, hearing them tell us their sto- American Folklore Society: ries, play us their songs, and teach us their Reflections on the Work and Mission sense of community, as well as what things of Folklorists.‖ Public Folklore. Eds. are important to the folks in those communi- Robert Baron and Nicholas Spitzer. ties and why, by engaging with them in the Jackson, MS: University Press of kind of nuanced negotiation that used to be Mississippi, 2007. 65-73. known simply as conversation before the dis- Hurston, Zora Neale. Mules and Men. New missal and degradation of that word in a York: Harper and Row, 1935. world overridden with texting, blogs, and vir- Shakespeare, William. Twelfth Night, or, tual ―communication,‖ can the humanistic What You Will. Ed. Jonathan Crewe. endeavors of folklorists and anthropologists New York: Penguin Books, 2000. be successful in helping us to truly under- stand the people and cultures that ethnogra- phers study. The key is to engage, to ques- I would like to remark in closing that this tion, and then to listen to what the folk have event is the brainchild and passion of Dr. to teach us. And to always remember that the Pete Gregory, whose initial vision and endur- folk will always have far more to teach aca- ing passion for talking with the folk and for demics than vice versa. the importance of the kinds of discussions Near the end of her career, folklorist we‘ll be having over the next few days has Bess Lomax Hawes related to her colleagues been the driving impetus for this Symposium. in the American Folklore Society that she It is my honor to turn the time over to my wished she had done more fieldwork, much partner in crime and ethnology, a man that I

8 proudly call my teacher and mentor, Dr. Pete Delta; my roots are in the Delta. I was born Gregory. in Vidalia [LA]. Vidalia sits ―under the hill‖ at Natchez [MS] on the Louisiana side of the Defining the Delta river. I‘ve spent my whole life in the Delta Pete Gregory: Shane has been asking me, with all of these people. Some of whom were talking about being a partner in crime, he‘s my people; some of whom made me their been asking me for three weeks, ―What is the people. Delta?‖ Laura told him what the Delta was. I The Delta is a place I like to talk like Dr. Webb‘s definition of the Delta much about. Those of you who know me know I better – a vast expanse of land. If you drive can prattle on and on and on about the Delta. through the Delta region, you realize how I think if you think about it as a valley, the much land there is. Like Laura says, if you river built it. Most of the land around here, listen to the Delta people, if you listen to all even what we call hills, which when you get those languages, you realize how much diver- over there in the Western United States, these sity in people is in this amazingly compli- aren‘t hills at all. My students from Colorado cated place both geologically and culturally. say, ―I can‘t even see what you guys are call- I suspect there‘s not another place like it in ing hills. The whole damn place looks flat to the United States, certainly, maybe not even me.‖ It is pretty flat. When you get out in the in the world. All of these people are tied to- flood plains of the Mississippi River, it‘s as gether by this giant river that runs from the flat as that floor, maybe flatter in places. But mouth of the Ohio River to the Gulf. That is if you live in the Delta, it‘s not flat. It‘s just the Delta, geologically, the lower Mississippi rolls and pitches. It‘s wet and it‘s dry, and Valley, some people call it. When the Delta it‘s sandy and it‘s muddy. It‘s different. Peo- Initiative was formed back in the 1980s, there ple who grow up in the Delta can see a differ- were these big discussions about how we ential elevation of about six inches. For the were going to bound it. What are the bounda- rest of you guys, that‘s pretty flat, but to us, ries going to be? The first commission was and on a rainy day, if somebody is here from set up. President Bill Clinton was then the Mansura, six inches [of rain] last night made governor of Arkansas. He was the first chair a big difference in Mansura. The land is flat, of that commission. They finally, after wres- but it is not flat. The rivers created the lev- tling around with it for several months, de- ees, natural levees, back swamps, and ox- cided just to take whole states or parts of bow lakes. It‘s created a world of different, whole states that were affected mainly by the little micro-environments. Mississippi River. To make that long story All of the people who have come short, it really starts at the mouth of the Ohio from the Delta, starting with the American River, where half of the water in the lower Indians who were here when all of the rest of Mississippi River comes from and joins the the people got here, everybody has adapted water coming in above that in St. Louis. what they brought with them to that land- Normally we say it starts at Cairo; it starts at scape. I think if you think about that land- St. Genevieve. Those are the towns where scape, as all these folks talk for the next cou- the river starts for us, the lower river. I don‘t ple of days, will all somehow or other be try- know about folks, with all apologies to the ing to deal with it, to adapt to it. We do that folklorists here. Two or three of you guys I all in different ways. Then somehow we know very well. You know me very well creolized that and put all of those different too. ways together. We all share certain things, I am a Delta folk. I come out of the things we don‘t even realize sometimes we

9 share. You can talk about the folk, but you know about. There are mounds here that go are really talking about a whole series of cul- back, in Louisiana, four thousand years built tures. The people learn traditionally from by people‘s ancestors. Poverty Point [1050 generations who came before them. The BC] was a thriving city in Northeast Louisi- trick, I think, is that we didn‘t forget what people learned before us. We did not lose that ana. That record goes all across the Delta. ability to live in the Delta, to do things with Laura named pretty much the states that are the Delta, to have shared experiences in the affected by the Delta. We are missing some Delta. tribes. The Quapaw aren‘t here and the We decided we would start the day Caddo aren‘t here because we ran out of with the American Indian panel. These guys Delta Initiative money to get people here. I have always been in the Delta. They were think you‘ll find these folks [Alabama and the first people to come. They are the people Coushatta folks], all Louisiana-Texas related who made the most contributions to it. Corn, people, are all related to this region. beans and squash you all eat. Pirogues you all

10 SESSION I

11 12 Session 1 – American Indian Communities: Keeping On Keeping On Moderators: Dr. Pete Gregory, Dr. Dayna Bowker Lee Participants: Walter Celestine, John Paul Darden, Christine Norris, Jean Luc Pierite, Cheryl Smith

Pete Gregory: John Paul Darden is here. The Chitimacha nation is in place in the Delta of all Native American tribes. I can think of very few tribes in the southeast that have not been bumped around by the government, bumped around by the environment, bumped around by something. The Chitimacha Na- tion has always been where it is. I think if it is OK with you guys, I‘d L-R: Laura Gates, John Paul Darden, Dr. Pete Gregory, Christine Norris, like to let John start us off and talk Dr. Dayna Lee, Walter Celestine, Cheryl Smith, and Jean Luc Pierite about whatever you want to talk about. you hear, Biblical things that you hear, also. For us, we‘ve always been in the Delta. I‘ve John Darden: I‘m better when I get ques- never thought about calling it the Delta re- tions. gion. We always just called it home. The Delta region, we‘ve always been down there. Gregory: They‘ll do it to you. We have adapted over the years. The tribe today covers a real small area. We‘ve shrunk. The tribe was a lot larger. The influx Darden: I‘m John Paul. I‘m from the Chiti- of the Spanish came in first. We met the macha Tribe, and he‘s right, where we are. Spanish, and the French came in. Over the We can be traced back there, even in the years we had a war with the French that community where I‘m at in Charenton, can lasted. It almost wiped out the tribe. That was be traced back right there archaeologically in in the early 1700s. We dropped down to, I that area. Archaeologists tell us a little more want to say, by 1900, we were down to than six thousand years. We‘ve always been probably only a little more than a hundred right there. We‘ve got a lot of historical tribal members. We dropped down to that. sites, prehistoric sites all around where we Today we‘ve grown back up. We‘ve got live. Our people started out there. Now if about 1,225 tribal members. Very, very few, you listen to our elders, which is what has [full bloods] actually you‘d have to get some been passed down to us, is that we didn‘t of the elder elders to find full-blood now. come from anywhere else, like you say have My daddy was full-blood. I‘m half. We go moved in. Like my grandmother always said, down to, we just actually have tribal mem- ―We‘ve always been here.‖ We‘ve got leg- bers that have been hitting the 1/16th mark ends that go back to our creation stories. now. We just recently had to do some From there you have the legends on how we changes. We [membership] put it to a vote in got fire, the great flood, all these things that

13 the last election because of the 1/16th to go doing studies of Southeastern Indian cane down the lineal descent so that you could still basketry, the Chitimacha guys were always be considered Chitimacha. We don‘t want our mentors. They were always the people the tribe to eventually die out. It could hap- we went to, our go-to guys. One of the things pen with the 1/16th. For some of us it would that we realized, all of us talking about it, in take longer. My wife is also Chitimacha. My that first conference we had here about cane daughter and her husband are Chitimacha basketry, was that the cane which once cov- also. For some of the community, it would ered that whole region, giant brakes of cane, take longer, for some of the families. Most of so thick that you couldn‘t see through them, them marry outside the tribe. Very few so thick that you couldn‘t walk through them, marry within the tribe today. canes twenty feet tall, were all going away. We‘ve adapted to the area. The area This wonderful art that had been handed has always provided for us very well with down and handed down was in danger. I‘ll rich nourishment, from gardening to fishing. let John tell you what they decided to do We‘d grow foods to eat. In the area where we about the cane. I think it‘s something you are we have great fishing. We have saltwater, should hear. All of us know about it, but and we have freshwater right there. Less maybe some of you don‘t. I‘m going to ask than twenty miles from us is saltwater. You you to talk about the cane project. can take Bayou Teche and get out to the salt- water. You can catch a cut and get out to the Darden: The river cane we had actually saltwater. Fresh water. We have fresh water worked within NRCS a few years back. all around us. It has always been a great They came in and we went out into the field means of feeding our people. That‘s why we and we harvested. We went to several of the didn‘t move around also. Government didn‘t batches I knew in the wild. We harvested move us, but also our people didn‘t have to some cane with the roots. We put them move to survive. We had everything we growing in a green house. We transplanted needed right there. The region here is very that on the reservation. Since then, that has rich. The soils are very rich to grow. The taken off very well. It is growing very nice good hunting, good fishing, that‘s why we‘ve cane. We just did another planting, I guess stayed where we are. about three months ago where we planted it. I‘ll open up to questions. I‘m better if This cane is some of the typical cane for the you ask me any questions you like. I can area. Our cane grows anywhere from fifteen shoot from that. If anybody has any questions to twenty-five foot tall. That is what you are about the Chitimacha, or if you are curious going to find, depending on the soil composi- about anything Chitimacha. tion where it‘s growing. Some of the cane that we planted, I measured one of the stalks, Gregory: I must say that John Paul is one of and it‘s right at thirty feet tall. I just har- the best Chitimacha basket makers, cane bas- vested for the Jazz Fest. I went ahead and I ket makers left. He is really the best cane bas- don‘t use out of it unless I need to, but I was ket maker left in the states in the southeast. in a pinch. I went ahead and the cane was His family tradition can be traced back to, I‘d ready to be harvested – the right age. You say, at least six thousand years. The Chiti- have to harvest it at the right age to utilize it macha have done some remarkable things for the baskets. I went ahead and harvested recently about that. The loss of river canes some when I went to Jazz Fest and peeled it. — one of the problems that Dayna and I Works real great. The cane project is doing worked on for The Work of Tribal Hands, very well for us. We planted another group,

14 and it looks like the sprouts have taken off. It ety likes. It was a successful project. Now looks they are growing well too. What helps we will have cane for the next generations is knowing where the cane thrives best. That coming up learning to do basketry. was one of the things when NRCS came in. It‘s like Pete said, I know we‘ve only There‘s different varieties of cane. There‘s a got four right now, but I just did a group certain variety in our area that we use. They about two months ago at the office. We were telling us that you need to plant it here called in, put out for tribal member employ- or plant it there. We finally, the people that ees at work if they wanted to come out and weren‘t coming out with us. I showed them start peeling cane. We had a day where they where the patches were because that is an- came out. We gathered the cane and split and other thing. Families always had been secre- peeled a bunch of cane to see who would be tive about their patches because the cane had interested. Of all the ones that came out, gotten less plentiful. You didn‘t want any- there were only a couple of them that stuck body knowing where your patch was. My with it and wanted to know a little more. grandmother and them were like that. They That‘s the way you learn to do baskets. You had this patch, and they didn‘t want to share have to have the desire to do it because of the it with somebody else because they didn‘t time it takes. Once we learn the cane, I told want somebody else to go wipe out their them next time now that you how to peel the patch when they had a good patch of cane. cane, and they have to get better at peeling it Fortunately today we share with one before they can go to the next step. I want to another. There are only four of us that are bring them out to the cane patch and actually currently weaving right now, so we do share show them what they have to look for to cut the cane, where our patches are. With the cane. It has to be mature cane. It has to NRCS, they were saying, their bosses were be the right age. I want to try to teach them saying, we need to plant it in an open area out that step, too. They have to know that one to here. I said, ―Well, you know that open area be able to get the cane. Then we‘ll work the may work for some canes, and there‘s hun- steps down the road. It takes a lot of time. dreds of varieties of cane. It‘s a bamboo. That‘s why today you have very few weav- That works for some of the canes, but not ers. Today with all of the fast pace, nobody all.‖ I pointed out to every patch we went to, really has the time. I find I‘ve had some is near water and it‘s in shade. It does better nephews that had done it when they were real in shade. They said, ―Maybe it‘s shooting up young, and when they hit teenagers, they did- to get the sun is why you get the height and n‘t mess with it anymore. My daughter had all that.‖ Whatever the reason it is, the cane tried it when she was young. She‘s done grows very well in the shade. We did plant some little trays is all she‘d ever done. A few some in the shade. We planted some on the years ago, she‘s thirty now, a few years ago, edge where it was out a little bit from the sun, she tried again and she did some. The wife and that didn‘t take off very well. Where we had helped her, and she did a few more trays. had the shade, it all did very good. Most eve- Gradually she is learning a little bit. Again, it rything we planted took. That was good. takes some time and the commitment to do it. That was us knowing our material and where It was a great project we worked with NRCS. it grows and stuff. It helped with that project It‘s doing very well. and the same thing with the new cane that we planted. We planted it all in nice shaded ar- Lee: Can you talk a little bit about repatriat- eas where you‘ve got good shade and not in ing baskets, going to visit museums, and us- water, but near water. That‘s what this vari- ing that as a basis for NAGPRA?

15 Darden: We had also got a grant several Darden: I figured that‘s where he was leading years back to go and look at baskets. We to. Yes, I do. I‘ve got some baskets that are haven‘t repatriated any. Baskets are hard to probably 200 to 250 years old that have been show. You‘ve got to have cultural patri- in the family, that have been handed down mony. Our baskets have been around for- generation to generation. We actually mist ever. We‘ve always made the baskets. our baskets. If they are in a real dry area, that They‘re willing to show them to us, but we cane gets brittle. When you see baskets and haven‘t had any that. . . . We haven‘t gotten you see them starting to crack, and you see any back. the bottoms on some, they‘re getting brittle. I was actually just at a lady‘s house about two Lee: You haven‘t had any that are unique weeks ago that had some baskets. It was an enough that you can make the case for it? elderly lady. She got them from her mother, and she‘s probably ninety, so they are very Darden: That‘s right. old baskets. They‘re over 100 years old. She had them in the kitchen. She‘s got them on her wall. A couple of them are with the Gregory: If you guys [audience] would like canes just broke. They haven‘t been handled. to see some, we have ours. The cane‘s just breaking off. I told her in the

kitchen you‘ve got dry air in here. You are Darden: I have some in the car, too. In case I not putting any moisture back in baskets. needed to sell some. Although the designs are beautiful on them,

you see what they are doing, and they are go- Gregory: The Williamson Museum has an ing to continue to do that. You have to put old, old collection of Chitimacha baskets. some moisture back into that basket or it‘s John‘s been nice enough to let us keep them going to get brittle. Dry air in the kitchen is for a while. Hopefully we will have. . . . not a good place at all to have them. She likes to see them. She likes them out where Darden: Y‘all are taking good care of them. you can see, and when people come in they That‘s what counts. can see them. She also was asking me how do we prepare the baskets. Gregory. Can you talk a little bit. . . . We I said well, if you were to take them got into a discussion. In Natchez where we and put them in another area, actually if you had the basketry conference, we talked to the would help save them from light because curators of the museums about how to treat they are very old. You moisten them every baskets, how to deal with baskets. John had now and then. Just spritz some all over them some really neat observations, I think, how where they will absorb the moisture. They are Chitimachas take care of their baskets. It kind going to last longer. If I take them and start of conflicted with what I‘m teaching you trying to repair them, I‘m going to wet that guys in the museums class. I think it‘s worth basket down to do some repair work to it. I understanding a little differently. There are fix some baskets. I‘m going to soak it in wa- other ways of doing things even when we ter completely so I can put cane in it. Other- don‘t feel like we have choices. Do you re- wise, I‘m going to try and put some cane in member that conversation? it, and I‘ll break more than I put in because it is so brittle. It does take moisture. They will Lee: The question was do you wet the baskets get brittle, and that‘s where we contradict. or not to preserve them. They say no water on the baskets, but if you

16 don‘t put water on them, the cane will get a little bit about the language program be- dried out and brittle. You‘ll see that in old cause it‘s pretty unique in the Delta what baskets. You‘ve got to see the ones I‘ve got y‘all have done with the language. at the house. They‘re very, very old. They‘ve just been handed down in my family, one Darden: Originally, we started the language generation after the next. They‘re still in program back in ‘98 with Julian Granberry. good shape. We put together some lesson books and stuff with that from a lot of the old cylinders. . . . Lee: Do you mist those baskets, or do you At the Smithsonian, they wound up, they had actually submerge them? You talked about a lot of recordings from the 1930s that Benja- repairing and submerging. min Paul, which was my grandfather‘s uncle. Then one of his aunts, Delphine, and actually Darden: Repairing, I submerge them because Pauline [Paul] had done some stuff, too, with I have to get them where they are good and them, which are a couple more of my grand- pliable. When it dries out, even to reshape father‘s aunts. What they did was the lan- the basket. If it gets out of shape for some- guage was recorded back then. So when we thing sitting on it, or whatever, if you sub- started working on the language program, we merge it, and then you take it and reshape it. were looking at rejuvenating our language. Set the shape like you want it and let it dry. It Julian had been already working on it him- will go back to its shape. Sometimes from self. When we met him, it was just coinci- age or from where they‘ve been sitting or dence. We started working with him. We how they‘ve been sitting, they may lose a lit- put together lesson books and language tle bit of their form. You can fix all of that, books. We started teaching with that. Re- too. Those are just things that have been cently, I guess it‘s right at two years now, handed down to me. That‘s the way we‘ve Rosetta Stone had actually put out for a lan- done it. guage grant where they‘d pick a tribe. We applied for the grant, and we actually wound Lee: The basket conservationist was horri- up winning. They chose us. They came out. fied. She was scared of submerging or even Our culture department worked with them misting the baskets. with the material that we had. We put the language material. Now we‘ve got it all on CDs and on the computer where everybody Gregory: She kept saying, ―I can‘t do that. I can log in. We teach it at the school. At the can‘t do that.‖ school, at the computer lab, all of the students

have their computer when they come into Lee: What she said was, ―You can‘t do that!‖ class in the computer lab. The Rosetta Stone is downloaded on the computer where they Darden: No, I can do that. My baskets have can go on the computer. It‘s also. . . . they been around a long time. Actually one of the can each learn at their own pace. For some ones we have, I‘ve only seen a couple of that are learning quicker than others. . . . . It‘s them. One of the mats that are in the family pretty neat. I helped work with it. I‘m not has been handed down generation after gen- fluent in Chitimacha. I can speak words and eration after generation. Our family has been say a few things. I‘ve also got the Rosetta weaving baskets as far back as you can trace. Stone program, but I have not loaded it on my computer, yet. I will be working with it Lee: Before we move on, could you also talk eventually. It just seems lately I haven‘t had

17 the time. Earlier when she said, ―Hello,‖ I‘ve a teaching mechanism. been trying to remember. Darden: A teaching tool for us. It‘s always Gates: Wash too gee. handed down in the family. Our patterns have always been handed down. We don‘t do Darden: It‘s actually ―Wash too ee- anything different than what our ancestors gee.‖ [different emphasis] Then we say, did. If that pattern is 500 years old, you‘d see ―Hoogoo‖ with it – ―It is a good morning‖ or it on a basket or you see it today, the pattern ―It is a good day‖ is what you are saying. is the same. The only thing that would be different is we do smaller baskets today. We Gates: OK. Thank you. just don‘t have the time to work on the big baskets anymore. Most of our baskets, for the last a little more than a hundred years, Darden: For us just for greetings, if you want mostly what the tribe‘s been doing – just to say greetings, you would say, ―Ash ti i.‖ smaller versions of the baskets. That‘s ―wee hee tay” -- ―How are you?‖ ―We gee ee shee ya” is ―I‘m fine, thanks.‖ I know a lot of words. I can‘t carry on a con- Gregory: You got a language program, Chris- versation. If you are fluent, you‘d lose me. tine, at Jena for the Jena Band of Choctaw. Over the years, I‘ve learned a lot of the bas- You are just beginning to start a language ket patterns and different things from my program? What are you guys up to? grandmother because she would say the pat- terns in Chitimacha. I learned a lot of our Christine Norris: Well let me tell you a little basket patterns in Chitimacha. That was also bit about the Jena Band of Choctaw. Thank through when I went to different museums you very much for being here this morning. through that grant we got them and took pic- We‘re glad to be here. Along with myself, tures of baskets all over the country. Every I‘m Christine Norris, the tribal chief of the family keeps pattern baskets that are handed Jena Band. With me is Cheryl Smith who is down in the family like the ones we have. presently a council member, a former chief. No family has all of the patterns. Right now, A lot of times we‘ve always got a question, there are more than fifty patterns that I know ―How does a woman become a chief?‖ Dif- of. When I took pictures in museums, I ferent days, different times today. Tradition- brought them back to my grandmother. She ally, it was always the male in the tribe, the is deceased now, but she was alive back then. elder. Today we have different forms of gov- She would tell me what the pattern was and ernment. We are governed by a five-member stuff on them. She would tell me what they tribal council of which the tribal chief has a were. Even though she didn‘t have any like position. I have served on the tribal council that, she could still tell me the patterns. for twenty-seven years as council member and eight years as a tribal chief. We are lo- Lee: And that was one of the reasons that you cated in Jena, Louisiana. We have a three- were able to get that grant, isn‘t that right? parish service area, which consists of Rapides, Grant, and LaSalle Parishes. That was deemed by the Indian Health Service Darden: Yes. where we deliver services to our members.

We also have various members that live in Lee: The NAGPRA grant because the pattern Alabama, Mississippi, Arizona, and Califor- baskets were representative of a learning tool, nia. The base of our population is located in 18 Jena, Louisiana. We‘re a very small tribe. process from cutting the cane, going in those Out of the four Federally recognized tribes, fields, washing the cane, and the whole proc- we have approximately 282 members. We ess. It is quite extensive. Today, like I said, are very small, which culture is very impor- we only have one traditional basket maker tant to us. We are trying to maintain that. that‘s left. With our traditions, we are trying With being a small tribe, we only have a few to bring that back alive, with the language, elders left. That is such a rich tradition that with the basket making. We are looking into these people hold to pass down to us. They the pottery right now. We have a tribal mem- are very dear. Cheryl and I are becoming to- ber who has really touched upon that, and it‘s day the elders of our tribe because we are like that‘s her calling. She‘s doing quite well such a young tribe. One of the things, she in trying to learn and get that experience and can expound a little bit about the language education from that. within our tribes because we are trying to re- Being a very small tribe, we have a vitalize that, bring it back. We are working lot of obstacles that we have to overcome and with, we have worked with, the Oklahoma face. When you look at the population of the Choctaw, the Mississippi Choctaw. Origi- state, we‘re looking at documentation of al- nally our people came from the Mississippi most 32,000 Indian people in Louisiana. Not Choctaw. With removal went to Oklahoma all of them maybe perhaps belong to a Fed- for some land claims. That didn‘t work out. eral tribe, but they are state tribes. There are This group of members walked back on their groups that have joined together recognizing way back to Mississippi. They stayed in the their culture and trying to pass that on to area of LaSalle Parish in the Eden commu- other individuals. Louisiana does have a var- nity. We believe because of the waterways. ied population of Indian people everywhere. There was the Red River, Ouachita, the Cata- I think Cheryl would like maybe to houla Lake area. There was a lot of trading share some of the language. She is one of going on in that area, hunting and fishing. our better speakers today in our generation. Our people there were sharecroppers. That With so very few people left today that are was their main way of living. Today, we are fluent speakers, we‘re trying to bring that bringing that back as we‘ve had our commu- back and teach that to our young people. nity gardens, what we call our pea patch that we‘ve had for tribal members to come in. Cheryl Smith: I talk loud. I probably don‘t We are revitalizing that, bringing that back to even need that [referring to the microphone]. the community. Soak Cheryl Smith, Jena Band of Choctaw. As John had talked about, we have [Inaudible] Pete Gregory, Northwestern. I one basket maker that makes the river cane said my name is Cheryl Smith. I‘m from the baskets. In the 1990s, the latter part of, I Jena Band of Choctaw. I said, ―Thank you so think it was ‘97, we got a small grant from much, Pete and Northwestern, for asking us the U. S. Forestry to have a class on basket to be a part of this panel this morning.‖ making. Rose Fisher, who is our present bas- The Jena Band of Choctaws, not just ket maker, I think she worked with about myself because I‘m a young person, even thirteen to fifteen of our ladies. Going though I‘m an elder. My mother, many peo- through that process is quite extensive. I ple that have gone on have had a long rela- think we passed out many boxes of band-aids tionship with Northwestern, Dayna, and Pete during that three-day period. Maybe there Gregory. When you talk about sitting on the was one that really came out of the whole porches, when you talk about talking to peo- thing. We went through every step of the ple, and you talk about these things, this is

19 what Pete and Dayna have done. They have necklaces. My mother was Mary Jones. I been lifetime friends with the tribe. Like you know a lot of you know her from years past. say, you academic people, you come and you She‘s been very active, a very cultural, tradi- talk to us, and you come back. But we are the tional person across the whole United States. people; we are the teachers. They were the She made Choctaw ribbon dresses, china- teachers, and I hate to say that. As being a berry necklaces. She was a fluent speaker, a young person, I thought Pete was just some full-blood. We had a great loss, when we lost old person that came from a college to aggra- mamma in the tribe. vate momma and to ask questions. He was I don‘t know why I didn‘t learn things always around. And Dayna. I think as that I should have. Why I didn‘t ask more you‘re a young person, these things aren‘t questions that I should have. I see that now. important at that time. We‘re busy, we‘re So now, my thing is the language. We have raising our children. I know I was. My cul- applied for a couple of grants. Didn‘t get ture, the language, everything that everybody them. We‘re going to try for another one. used to . . . . I tried the baskets; that wasn‘t What we do is when we have summer camps, my thing. I didn‘t like that. It‘s too hard to I go and at least teach the children how to do. Thank goodness there was one person count from one to ten, teach them the ani- who liked it. She took it; she does it now, mals, colors, the basic things. We do have a been doing it for quite a few years. small in-tribe program that is not structured. It is so sad that our tribe only has It is just me and a couple more trying to teach probably two people that are over sixty-five. our children. We do have plans to get some We are a young, young tribe. Christine and I tribal dollars, apply for grants, and learn our now are elders. We call fifty-five and older language, because it is very important to me. tribal elders. We‘re a young tribe. I hate to That is my goal is to try to teach the young say this, but we are having to learn what we children. should have learned from our parents many, Among the other things that they need many years ago. I had the best Choctaw to know, we have some that want to learn to speaker that there was in the tribe, and did I dance. We have some that want to learn to learn? No, I didn‘t. John Paul, I‘m like you, I drum. We are having our second powwow in know all the words, I can listen and under- September. Everybody says, ―When‘s your stand what people are saying, basically, but powwow? When‘s your powwow?‖ Tunica to converse with you, I don‘t know all the has big powwows. Alabama Coushatta. little things that need to go in there. I speak Kinder Coushatta. Everybody has powwows, broken language. That is my goal and my life but we‘ve never had one. We had our first is to be a fluent speaker before I die. Why one last year. It was very small. I think it we didn‘t think about these things while our was very successful. The rain made us come mammas and daddies and uncles and gran- inside, but we survived. Our second one is nies were living . . . . It was just taken for September 18th. We‘d like to invite every- granted that we‘d learn sooner or later. body to come and participate. I know Wal- They‘d be here forever, I thought. I don‘t ter‘s been with us. He‘s been a great leader, know what. Now, we‘re seeing our young teacher. He‘s taught us a lot of things about people come up. Someone has to get up and powwow etiquette. figure out what is important in their life to It‘s kind of terrible that here we are an them. Is it the baskets? Is it the language? Indian tribe having to learn these things Is it the dancing? Is it the chinaberry? again. Our tribe is the newest [Federally] You know momma made chinaberry recognized tribe in Louisiana. We are the

20 fourth tribe to be recognized in the state. I were a Federal Indian tribe. At one point, I started to work for the tribe in 1975 when I was even just so aggravated I just said, ―I was young. That‘s all I‘ve ever done is work don‘t care if the Federal government ap- for the tribe in any capacity from being the proves us. We know we‘re Indian people. janitor. Sometimes it was two people, just Why do we have to do this?‖ two of us trying to get recognition. That was, The thing is there are so many bene- I think, the greatest accomplishment that fits for our people. Our people have enjoyed we‘ve ever done. It was an act of Congress benefits. There‘re health services that we can to prove to the United States that we were an now get for our people. A lot of this is based actual tribe. Pete was very instrumental; a lot on population. We are the smallest tribe in of people were instrumental. The Mississippi Louisiana with 280 members. Our benefits, Choctaws were our supporters because we we spread them out as much as we can. We were a part of the Mississippi Band of Choc- don‘t have a casino like the other three tribes taws. In the Removal system, our people did- do. They have revenue that they are able to n‘t make it to Oklahoma. They stopped in add to their Federal dollars that make them the area of LaSalle Parish. It looked to them more able to provide things that we can‘t. like Mississippi lands. They felt comfortable We‘re trying to get a casino, and we‘re not there. There was good land to fish, to hunt. going to stop. That‘s something that we We just stayed there. We have had anthro- think the other three tribes have that we pologists, we‘ve had archaeologists, and should have the right to have also. With that we‘ve had linguists, who have studied us. I you fight the governor. It‘s politics. It‘s a think we have been studied to death. In all of whole lot of things I really don‘t want to get that, it helped us with our recognition. It into because politics is politics. helped prove that we are a tribe. We have I think here today we‘re here to talk been there continuously. We have had leader- about us, who we are. We‘re native people, ship continuously. The seven criteria to get proud to be a member of the Jena Band of recognized are very, very hard. I really be- Choctaw, proud to be here with the other four lieve that we are going to be the last tribe to Federal tribes here that are represented. I be recognized in the state of Louisiana. I think we call each other sister tribes. We all think there won‘t be any more recognized have a lot of the same things. Our customs or tribes in Louisiana. I‘m aware that there are a traditions that are sacred to us. I think when lot of state recognized tribes in Louisiana you are around Indian people, it‘s like a now. I don‘t even know all of them. There‘s bond. You feel it. You know that they‘ve so many. I can just tell you that it is a very been through the same thing that we‘ve been hard thing to do is to prove that you have had through. A little thing‘s changed between continual leadership, traditions, crafts, cus- their customs and our customs, but still they toms. It was the greatest achievement. Jerry have their crafts, we have ours. They have Jackson, who passed away last year, was a their language, we have ours. We are the great leader. He was the tribal chief for many same. We are native people. years. He dedicated his life as I did in trying It‘s been a hard life for us. Things to get recognition. The two of us worked are better now. They still need to be better. continuously, continuously. A lot of you The Federal government never funds -- talk who have filed petitions know what it is like about getting cuts across the board with Folk- to try to get recognition. You get letters back life, we know what that means because In- of insufficient this or that. It was an act of dian Health Service gets cut, housing, HUD Congress from ‘75 to ‘95 to prove that we gets cut, EPA programs get cut, just like the

21 white world. The Indian world receives these We have a long history with North- same cuts as you do. We try to survive with western. A lot of you people out there knew what we do, with what we have to our people mother, Mary Jones, very well. I‘m very in service and help. That‘s what the tribal proud to be her daughter. I just wish I had council does. Like I say, we are a small gov- listened more to my mother. I wish I had ernment. We have five people. We work for asked more questions. If any of you in here our people, and that‘s what we do. We try to are young, Elizabeth, you‘d better learn eve- provide the best services that we can in any rything from your mom. Jean Luc, the same grants. We also look for grants. Dayna and thing. Y‘all are young. You still have time to Pete have helped us with a lot of grants. do all these things. I‘m proud of you because We were thankful to them for things I‘ve seen you do participate. You do things that they have helped us preserve, that being that you should do. We have a young youth the language, the basketry, just lots of things group that‘s getting involved. They want to – saving photographs, tapes of people who learn how to drum. They want to learn how have gone now who were fluent speakers. to dance. I do, too. I like dancing. I think We were able to save those, digitalize those, that we are still young enough to bring back scan, save pictures. The Park Service has to our tribe the things that we‘ve lost. Maybe helped us with Dustin [Fuqua]. He came in before I‘m old, old, you‘ll see us with all of and showed us how you do all these things. our customs and traditions and languages and We have had a lot of help from Northwest- dancing and all that brought back to Jena ern, the Folklife, Division of Arts, Ms. Band. Pete, you‘ll live to see it, too. I prom- Owens. We have had a lot of help from dif- ise. ferent agencies through Northwestern, a lot of people. Gregory: I hope so. Get busy. Basically, the language is my thing, and I hope that. . . . My New Year‘s resolu- Smith: I hope so. We‘re busy. We‘re getting tion was by the end of the year to be a fluent very busy. We‘re bringing back everything speaker. The year‘s half gone now. I don‘t that we haven‘t lost. It‘s just out there. know where it‘s gone. It seems like it was We‘ve got to find the right people who want winter. Here it‘s summer. It‘s fixing to be to do that thing and get them in, and help fall. I have improved a little bit on my speak- them, and support them. That‘s what it‘s all ing, not as much as I like. We have a tribal about. It‘s us older people supporting the elder, finally who is a fluent speaker, Clyde young people, bringing them in and finding [Jackson] is not well, but he has moved what their niche is, and being there for them, closer to town. He and I. . . . He‘s going to to support them. Later, when we have the be my personal tutor. I‘m going to start go- end of our discussion, I‘ll be glad to take any ing to his house. We are going to start talk- questions. Thank you. ing. I have a saying that ―the only wrong way to learn to speak your language is not to Gregory: Walter? speak it at all.‖ If you try, you‘ll get better; if you don‘t try, you won‘t ever learn. I‘m try- ing. I may not be correct. I just want to thank Walter Celestine: OK. you again. ―Yokoke,‖ Pete, Dayna, for all your help. Tu pesa quomo so yokoke. I‘d be Gregory: Usually I don‘t have to prompt glad at any time to take any questions from Walter. Walter was talking to me at the Folk you. Festival this summer about a project that he‘s

22 been involved in that‘s a little different. The so high that she passed out. They took her to Alabama-Koasati are trying to preserve some the hospital. Of course, I have all of these of their traditional tribal medicine. Walter things drying in my house. Every time some- has permission to talk about the medicine. I body came for help, she would always go in don‘t. I‘ll let him do that. Can you tell them the bedroom. I thought she just stayed in a little bit about that? there. I did whatever. If I could help some- body, I would say, ―Yes, I can help you,‖ and Celestine: We‘re gathering information from help them. Sometimes it‘s herbal, and some- some of our elders about different types of times it‘s spiritual medicine. Anyway, I was plants. We actually go out and take pictures back at the reservation working at the reser- of the different plants. For me, I‘m a little bit vation, staying in my mom‘s house. She different from trying to learn my language called me up and said, ―I did something because I didn‘t speak English when I was a wrong.‖ I said, ―Well, what did you do?‖ little kid. Then all of a sudden I went to She‘s a non-Indian. She‘s a red-head. She school. I didn‘t know what the teacher was said, ―Well, I used some of your medicine.‖ I saying. First thing I learned was ―Yes‖ and said, ―What are you talking about?‖ She said, ―No,‖ and that was it. I really didn‘t want to ―Well, I used a medicine for high blood pres- go to school. One of my people that works at sure. I made the tea.‖ I said, ―Well, how did the tribe, the Alabama-Coushatta Tribe, she you do it?‖ She said, ―I always hear you take was my kindergarten bus driver. I jumped your pipe and do the prayer.‖ She took to- off that bus and ran away. I told my momma, bacco, took the filter off, smoked the tobacco ―I don‘t want to go over there. I don‘t want and did the prayer to the Creator. Then she to learn that. I want to stay home.‖ All in my boiled the tea and took it to this lady who was language because I didn‘t know white people in the hospital and made her drink that tea. existed. The doctors didn‘t know why her blood pres- The CCC camps had made our homes sure all of a sudden leveled off. They told in the middle of nowhere. We didn‘t even her, ―You can make millions of dollars with have a dirt road that came to our house. Of this. What is it?‖ She said, ―I can‘t tell. It‘s course, we didn‘t have any electricity, no Indian medicine. If we tell, then it loses its running water, like most of the older people power.‖ That‘s why she was calling me. I have experienced. It‘s a luxury to have in- said, ―I guess it‘s OK. How did you know door toilet and everything, nowadays. Before anything about it?‖ Apparently she must have that we didn‘t have any of that stuff. Luckily been listening to what I tell people. we had underground spring water all over our I know oral history from way back. I reservation, so we had plenty of water, good was very lucky to have my grandparents, water to drink. Even today when we do our both in Louisiana. I used to call it ―Oper- medicines . . . . There are certain things I Lousiana.‖ I had a grandmother in Louisiana can tell, but there are certain things that I and Opera, Texas although she was from can‘t. We use what we call ohkullee, oh- Louisiana, came over here. I had a grand- kullee okee – the water from underground. mother from both Louisiana and Texas. They We make our medicines. . . . both knew how to do medicine. One time I I have a lot of things that I have dry- was trying to make coffee for my grand- ing in my home. I want to share a story. My mother. Of course, you have those kettles wife‘s a chemistry teacher in Houston, well, with the little spout coming out. It poured all Magnolia, a little town outside of Houston. over my front right here. You know boiling One of the teachers, her blood pressure was water on my chest. I was a little kid. I was

23 just trying to make coffee for my grand- saying, ―Your language, your tribe means mother from Louisiana. I told her to stay ‗cane people‘.‖ He said it in Choctaw. I said, with me until I got well. She made medicine ―Oh, no wonder. Choctaws gave us our and put stuff on my chest. I‘m talking about name.‖ I didn‘t even know about it. It helps. burning big pink spots right here. It doesn‘t It helps us learn different things from differ- exist anymore because she knew how to do ent tribes. The Chitimachas, they always told medicine. Those kinds of things. . . . them they‘re UFOs. Alton is our tribal ad- We have so many projects that go on. ministrator now, and he‘s from the Chiti- We try to get grants like everybody else. If macha, LeBlanc. Over there they call it we don‘t get it, we go ahead and do it. There LeBlanc. are dedicated people in my community. Ba- sically the tribal council decided that some- Darden: Call him ―Dudley‖ next time. body could volunteer. There‘s a Historic That‘s what we tell him. He grew up being Preservation office with a Historic Preserva- Dudley. He turned into Alton after he was tion Officer that we work with, but we also grown. [Reference to Dudley J. LeBlanc, the do language. We do traditional baskets, how Hadacol King] to make stickball, how to speak the language, or how to do beadwork, or all these different Celestine: These traditions and customs are things. We work with the kids. This summer, important. We try to educate them. We have there were, I think, twenty kids that made set aside moneys that were set aside from the baskets. These were boys and girls. I‘m tell- oil royalties for any child to go to any col- ing you that I was really surprised how good lege. We pay, if they make a 3.0 average, we they were at making baskets. pay 100% of their schooling. We‘ve had We begin to realize that we are losing people that have got their Masters Degrees. our language because the kids, when they go Some went for Doctors Degrees. We just had to school, they have to learn English. We one graduate with a 4.0 from Pepperdine. talk to them all of the time in our language at We‘ve had two of them graduate from home, but when they go to school, they have Baylor. There‘s a young lady that‘s wanting to learn English. They can understand us, but to be a dentist. All her life she‘s wanted to be they started speaking English more than they a dentist. I was trying to talk her into being a did our language. We‘re working with that. medical doctor, but she went through the pre- We actually have a language for Alabama med school in Baylor. She‘s too stuck with and Coushatta. We have a dictionary that we the dental thing. So I guess a dentist isn‘t worked with Rice University‘s linguistic de- bad. partment to create. I think [Geoffrey] Kim- Along with that, when we teach our ball [linguist at Tulane University] at the kids like in the summertime, when we have Coushatta‘s over here. I‘ve got most of them what they call Summer Youth Programs, we are my relatives here in Louisiana. actually teach them, we want them to know A lot of people don‘t know that there their traditional history. We want them to are two tribes – the Alabama Tribe and the pick a career. There‘s also a committee, Edu- Coushatta Tribe. In the books, they always cation Committee, which I‘m on. That‘s how used to say Coushatta means ―white cane we got our A-C scholarships, our Alabama- people.‖ I said, ―How in the world?‖ because Coushatta Scholarships. I‘m the only origi- ―Hisan hotkai‖ does not sound like it in Cou- nal left. At one time we only had five people shatta. I was thinking that. I talked to one of from my tribe that had at least a Bachelor‘s those Mississippi Choctaw guys, and he was Degree. We wanted to expand. It‘s better

24 that they are educated. When I talk to these coup of staff. They‘re into regions. They are kids now, and I talk to them in my language always crunching data. We made twice as all of the time because I don‘t want these kids better in finding jobs for native people than to forget their language, I was telling them, the state did for the population of Texas, and ―You need to get educated.‖ They said, ―Why they had more money. Unfortunately, they do you always push me to get educated?‖ one always cut ours. If things go bad, they want of them asked me. I said, ―Because when to cut the native programs first. I‘m old and sitting in front the senior citi- I had a teacher; Dr. George Langford zens‘ place, after I eat lunch, and I‘m on that was his name. I don‘t know if some of y‘all rocking chair, you are the one that‘s going to know him or not. He and I used to argue all be running my government. I want to make of the time about my tribal history. I knew sure that you‘re educated enough to feed me. my whole history, but when I was a young I‘m kind of selfish in that way.‖ They man, I didn‘t know the written part. He laughed. It‘s incredible. would say, ―Right here it‘s documented. Just like Cheryl was saying, she did- Right here. You can look at this reference. n‘t know she was an elder. Well, I didn‘t You can do this.‖ I said, ―Who wrote it?‖ He know I was an elder till there was a little girl said, ―So and so wrote it.‖ I said, ―Was he that ran up in front of me. She saw me go one of my people?‖ He said, ―No.‖ I said, into the building, and she ran up there and ―Why should I listen to that person writing opened the door for me. I said, ―Thank you. this thing?‖ Because he was interpreting in a Who‘re your parents?‖ She told me. I looked European idea or mind, and it wasn‘t our at her and said, ―Who‘re your grandparents?‖ mind; it was somebody else‘s mind. They I had to go all the way to grandparents to find had different traditions and customs like we out who she was. do. I said, ―If they wrote it, why should I be- The community, we are always help- lieve it?‖ We always kind of fought each ing each other, not only just our tribal com- other. Dr. Langford, even today, he and I munity but other tribes. We get together. email each other. When he writes a book or We know each other. It‘s great to be a part of something, he always sends a copy to me so I something like this where we get together, can look it over so we can argue about it the even the powwows. The powwows are basi- next time we see each other. It‘s really great. cally a get together for different tribes to You have to work. You have to al- come and say hello to each other and have a ways think about it in a common sense way. good time. I think it is really great to have I had a professor that wanted me to read this the Jena Band hold one. We were talking so ―Four score and seven years ago,‖ that thing. much about it. My mom wants to come see I would go, ―Four score and seven years ago, the powwow this year. I‘m still going to be your forefathers.‖ He said, ―I knew you‘d master of ceremonies this year, so y‘all come say that.‖ I was always kind of radical. out there and visit the Jena Band. It‘s just up We‘ve been here forever [in North America]. the road here. We‘ll enjoy ourselves. I always argue that in our oral history One more thing I want to bring up we came from the south, like in South Amer- before I forget. I work with the Department ica. We came up north and went east because of Labor, an employment training program east was the strongest medicine. To this day, for Native Americans. I cover 121 counties – I believe in that. I always find little articles not me but my staff. I just kind of crack the here and there like they find some kind of whip. One hundred twenty-one counties with toad that was in Madagascar. The only place eight people, and the state of Texas has beau- they could find this toad was in Madagascar.

25 Recently they found some in South America. slang. We have lost language. We chopped I said, ―There. We didn‘t come through the off a lot of the words when we speak to each ice bridge.‖ I always clip out those articles other. He was speaking fluently with correct that I find. For non-Indians, they have to find grammar. The rest of my group couldn‘t un- something that dates way back before the Ice derstand him. Language will change, but we Age, a village or something before they can still have to have the mother language, I call believe it. One of these days, with all of the it. Those are some of the important things technology, now, I hope they find it because that we try to preserve. We do all the pic- we are going to tell them that we came from tures. We have different pictures. We video- the South. We never came through that land tape the elders speaking the language and bridge. My grandmother was very adamant telling us stories or whatever. It just started about that. Again, I know I‘m talking too spreading out. We knew that we had to pre- much. serve all our culture, and we‘re trying the I‘m Koasati from the Alabama- best we can before our elders pass away. I‘m Coushatta Tribe in Livingston, Texas. Both still young because there‘re eighty-four and of my parents were born in Elton. I have ninety-six year old elders that we have on our relatives in this village, and I also have rela- reservation. Two years from now, I‘m going tives in the Alabama-Quassarte in Oklahoma. to be able to park in the Elders Only parking There‘re practically three different villages lot because I‘ll be fifty-five. Thank you. that did exist that does exist now. In the southeast, except for the Chitimachas, we all Lee: What we‘re talking about here sounds kind of speak similar languages. To me, like is cultural archiving across the board. we‘re all brothers and sisters. We just don‘t Everybody‘s doing it in similar, but different want to admit. I‘m Koasati. I‘m proud of it. ways. The Tunica-Biloxi are doing it through I‘m Choctaw, and I‘m proud of it. I‘m the music, through the songs. Jean Luc, will Creek, Muskogee Creek. I‘m proud of it. you talk a little bit about that? Talk about Somewhere in there the language changed what your family is doing? when our villages separated. Maybe the vil- lage got too big, and they couldn‘t feed eve- Jean Luc Pierite: First of all, Wow. Thank rybody, so they split off and went two differ- you guys for inviting me here. It does feel a ent directions. little bit like particular academia, it feels a The language changes because even little bit like Plato‘s symposium, and I‘m sort when I was working with the Rice University of like Aristophanes, kind of thrown in there linguistics department, I had one of my cous- because I‘m funny, and I‘ve got little weird ins that lived up north in North Dakota, in stories. Dickenson, North Dakota. When I went up there, I realized how much our language had Lee: You‘re also the youngest one. changed. We were speaking slang, and he was speaking the correct Coushatta language. I could speak it because my grandparents Pierite: That‘s the thing. I was thinking made sure I spoke the correct grammar in our about going into the images from our stories. language. I could understand him, and some We have the story about, and it kind of crops of my people that were with me couldn‘t un- up, the sort of like scene crops up in a couple derstand what my cousin was saying because of stories. The rabbit has a hatchet. He‘s he was speaking the old language, or the cor- hacking down the reeds, and he‘s in there. I rect language, more than it was with the kind of see it like everybody in the panel is

26 sort of like in the thick of the reeds, whereas of the original concept. The other side of the I‘m sort of just now breaking through. It‘s Delta is what‘s passed through. What‘s the good to have a little bit of commentary, just difference between the two? The Delta, breaking through and seeing what is out which is, when you‘re inside of that triangle, there. Of course, I have my mom, my dad, you have this unyielding force that will al- and my grandfather who‘s come before us, ways be there and will never change. To pass and generations before. through it is to change yourself. It‘s sort of To go into what Dr. Rasmussen like a mathematical and philosophical idea brought up during the beginning and then just to bounce off of people. through Pete as well, the shout-out to Zora With the language and with the song, was right on. I loved that. It got me to think- and what my family is doing. I think what ing about the idea of . . . . Also Vine Deloria we‘re doing is the most important thing when brought up about the two worlds. Walter it comes to the preservation of the tribe. The kind of touched on that a little bit. Where tribe itself. . . . When we talk about two you have the scene where you don‘t want to worlds, we also talk about the tribe versus the go to kindergarten, but it‘s not to remain ig- Tribe, Inc. The Tribe, Inc. is when you talk norant. There are two worlds. What it is, is about Federally recognized tribes. It‘s a Fed- that we look through these lenses, like either eral corporation that provides for the eco- academia, or however we got this informa- nomic development of Indian people versus tion. We have these lenses on right now ver- the tribe, which is an entity that has always sus if we take them off, you will always see been. It either dates back to 6,000 years ago the real world that has always been there. or however long the oral history goes to the When we think about learning right creation of the world, the creation of the peo- now, we don‘t think about going to the eld- ple, through the great floods, all that. I think ers. We don‘t think about asking the parents that what we‘re doing as far as doing the first. The first thing we think about learning songs, doing the stories, it‘s either according is going on the computer and ―Googling.‖ to the council it could be ten years we‘ve That‘s how a lot of people are getting their been doing this. According to my family it‘s information. It has now become the same in- thirty years, fifty years, back, generations on formation. If you need food, what do you do? back. What we‘re doing is passing a beach You go to Walmart because that‘s where the ball. When you‘re at a music concert, or cheapest food is. That‘s where everybody is wherever, you have a beach ball, just bounc- starting to get it. When we talk about Indian ing through the crowd. One person it lands people, when we talk about the distinct com- on, you‘ve got to bump it up. Through time, munities, we talk about the survival of that. through the tribe‘s history, that‘s what we‘ve We talk about taking off the lenses, going to done. Through my great-grandfathers, the elders, and learning the information sort through Sesosterie Youchigant, through Vol- of relating to the world that has always been sin Chiki, and all the people have just there. It‘s not gone away or anything like bounced that ball and continued it, continued that, relating it into the way that Tunica, the tribe‘s preservation. That‘s a lot of stuff Koasati, Choctaw, Chitimacha, and so on, I‘m throwing out because there‘re so many even European ways of viewing the world. concepts that have come out. What is the Delta? The Delta is a tri- In that, we are the teachers. We are angle. You express it that way in math. the ones that have been here. We‘re here in Maybe you have the Delta? The Delta is the that Delta, in that folk sense. The thing is, is difference. The one side of the Delta is sort that while we remain in the Delta, there‘s en-

27 croachment. There‘s that homogenization continue, your own identity. that I was talking about where the Internet is I didn‘t really give any dates or bio- where you are getting your information, that graphical information. If there‘re are any stores are where you are getting your food questions, of course like everybody else said. and that sort of thing. There‘s that encroach- ment. That‘s what is the threat to the survival Lee: Just let me ask you a question so that of all of our cultures is that the European you can tell folks. What type of information mindset or the corporate mind set or what- is passed down in the songs? What types of ever it is, that‘s what‘s the threat. information are you able to preserve in those The thing is while we are in the Delta, songs? we‘ve taken it for granted that this is how we are and this is how we‘ll always be. That‘s Pierite: The type of information in the songs no big deal because we won‘t really change. and in the stories. . . . First of all, when my Sometimes it takes people from academia to mom started, I mean not started. . . . come in and say this is not so much a burning library or anything like that, but you have to Lee: Kind of formalized the process a little do something in order to get this down and bit. pass that beach ball along to the next genera- tion, whether it‘s passing it on to your chil- Pierite: When she took up, my grandfather dren directly or just making sure that you talk said, ―You are going to be the one. You are to anthropologists, talk to any media outlet going to be the one that shows your children. and get the information out there so that gen- You are going to be the one that shows the erations on, whether or not the culture contin- tribe, and all this will be yours.‖ Of course, ues from your generation, generations on, you can see that, obviously, she is over- people are going to be traditionalists once whelmed by everything because this is her more and go back to that information. calling. What‘s passed on in the songs and Goodness. Something of a ramble, stories, my mom said, ―What of the language isn‘t it? When we talk about the tribe versus for everything else can enforce speaking the Tribe, Inc, we talk about Corsieri vs. Salazar language? It‘s music, songs.‖ It‘s those con- [Federal lawsuit over Indian Trust Lands cepts. It‘s those ideas. Even though they‘re rights], sort of like the attack on the tribe‘s just vocables, they have these concepts in sovereignty, and all that politics put together. there because music being the universal lan- The main defense to that is to ensure that the guage. It‘s the first thing that everybody can people remain distinct. Through the songs, relate to. That‘s why she took up for the through the stories, I believe that my family songs first and the language second. Through is on the frontline of that battle, through our the songs and the stories, I talked about this tribe. There are other people. John was talk- in my tribal council. I said, ―What we‘re do- ing about basket making. Cheryl was talking ing is preserving the mores and the folkways about the language. Everybody has their part of the tribe.‖ What that in turn does, it influ- to play in cultural preservation. We all are on ences how the government self-governs itself that frontline. We have to make sure that. . . . and how you remain a distinct community. Tribe, Inc. is good; it provides for economic When the Federal government comes in for development. The real battle is to ensure that whatever reason, it takes a look around at the the tribe is the continuous entity. Regardless group of people and says, ―OK. Let‘s see. of state or Federal or anybody‘s authority to Are you guys still here? Are you guys still tell you who you are, that is what needs to Indian? We can give this to you, and we can 28 take it away.‖ That sort of thing. If the cul- complex. ture remains intact, if the culture is the thing All of these people here have talked that‘s influencing how you govern, then, in about the environment in the Delta. The cane turn, they can‘t come in and say, ―Oh, well, project is directly there. Preserving the plants y‘all are just like everybody else.‖ That‘s it. is directly there. Christine helped out some That‘s what I mean by us being on the front- of us from one of the other sides of my iden- lines of the battle, making sure that the tribe, tity save the environment a couple of years and in turn, Tribe, Inc. is preserved. ago. Tunica-Biloxi and the Jena Band of Choctaw made an effort right after Katrina to Gregory: Jean Luc, the tribe is more than cope with a major problem in the Delta. It‘s recognition? now a major problem for the Vietnamese people in New Orleans. If all the waste of Pierite: Yes. Katrina had to go somewhere, where was it going to go? It was going out until a few months ago, it was going out to right on top Gregory: I think that‘s a general consensus of the Vietnamese community in Orleans Par- with everybody. Generally I think the whole ish. Before that, it was coming to up to Cata- idea of a tribe as an incorporated group is one houla, Avoyelles, up the river into central thing, but a tribe as a culture group is sort of Louisiana. Maybe Christine will talk about another thing. Those two things are very that a little bit. much entwined in the world these guys live in just like they are in the world we all live in. There‘s something bigger than the label. Norris: Well, it was an issue that was very Maybe there‘s something bigger than the folk dear to us in protecting our land, when we that people come to study. People have in look at the mounds that are out there, the sig- their heads, and they want to keep in their nificance to Indian people. They wanted to hearts. That‘s a different thing. I think we‘ll bring this waste disposal, bring it either by hear that at all these panels, not just the truck or by barges and dump it at this facility. American Indian panel. I think you will hear They wanted to create and make this facility it from other people. The Delta is no differ- in that area, which was significant, the land ent than any other place on the planet. I think was, to our Native American people. We it‘s the same thing we would all say, people fought against that and got up and spoke out. will all say. So many times that‘s what we do not do is Jean Luc‘s great grandfather [Joseph speak out and protect our land and what is Alcide Pierite, the last traditional Tunica- dear to us and explain the reason why. There Biloxi chief] told me one morning, was an effort. We went to meetings with the ―Everybody has to be everything they are.‖ I parish police jury meetings and various peo- thought, ―OK.‖ I was the baby at that meet- ple at DEQ headquarters and things. To let ing. I‘ve been thinking about that ever since. our voices be heard and collectively, that‘s Now, I‘m the elder at the table, anyway. I what made this effort so important. It made it keep thinking about that. That‘s very hard to that we were able to stop that, from them do to be everything you are and keep some coming in. Of course, they wanted to come essence of your identity. Being an anthro- up where it wasn‘t hurting their environment. pologist has made it easy for me because we It was damaging ours, land that was dear to go around talking to people about what they us, to our ancestors. Because we got to- think they are. I get a chance to kind of fig- gether, as a collective voice and made those ure out what I am. It‘s complex. It‘s very objections known and filed those objections 29 to that area being used for that, we were suc- than what we want. If we want something, cessful in keeping this company from coming we want to go after it. and making a land fill in that area, something that once again shows, if we make a collec- Smith: We‘ve learned the American way. tive effort, if we come together as people and We‘ve learned to speak up now. protect our land. It was very successful. We‘re very proud to have been a part of that. Lee: You‘ve learned the white American way. Lee: Walter made a good point, too. Not only are there invasive things like trash and Smith: I think for too long Indians never said the changes to the land that come with use, anything. They just stayed to themselves. but Walter just made a point about the inva- We were to ourselves. I think we have been sive plants. When you‘re using plant medi- educated enough and that we‘ve learned to cine and invasive plants come through and survive. To keep our culture, we have to they take the place sometimes of the plants learn the white way, too. that were traditionally there disappear. Celestine: We have to survive in the white Celestine: We‘re working with the U. S. For- world. At the same time, we want to stay in estry Service and Fort Polk, believe it or not. our world, too. Like the two different worlds They‘re working on planting plants that ex- that we have, I can go back and forth. It does- isted in the area and trying to take away the n‘t matter. I‘m aggressive enough now in the invasive plants that were brought in. Collec- non-Indian world. I‘d rather be in my world, tively, there are different agencies that get but I know I have to survive in the non- together, and we work with the different Indian world. We also teach our kids. . . . agencies to get the plants that existed here You were talking about. . . . . They used to before the invasive plants came. We all have have books about progressive Indian and tra- to kind of intertwine and see what we can do ditional Indian. Traditional Indian was poor; to preserve not only our traditions and cus- the progressive Indian was wealthy in a white toms, but also to preserve our plant life. man‘s term. You can do both. You can be We also made agreements with the educated, but you can also know about your Federal facilities, like military facilities in traditional history. It can be parallel now. At case something happens in our lands, and we one time we were separated, traditional, pro- can‘t find the medicines that we need in our gressive. Now we can do both and still live lands. We can go to a military facility or according to what we want. whatever, and if there‘re plants that we need, we can also get it. That was part of our Gregory: Are there any questions? You guys NAGPRA [Native American Graves Protec- have been quiet out there. tion and Repatriation Act] Memorandum of Understanding and Memorandum of Agree- Question: Do you find that a large interest is ment, not only for NAGPRA, but also for in your community to learn about language natural resources. We have to think broadly and culture? and see what we want. I know Christine and

Cheryl here, we‘re not scared to tell them what we want now. It used to be kind of like, Norris: I think in our tribe. ―I don‘t know what we want.‖ You have to kind of think and see what we need more Question: Are people involved, or is it be-

30 coming more difficult? larly.

Norris: I think it‘s becoming more because Lee: That was for speaking your language? today as Cheryl had stated earlier, when we were younger, we just didn‘t, we found too Celestine: They didn‘t want us to speak our many other things to do. We didn‘t want to language at all, even to each other in school. learn that when we had those elders at our I mean, that was it. They whipped the tar out disposal. Now that we are becoming in that of you. I was there. The problem is I was place, and we see the significance and impor- always hard-headed, I guess. My grand- tance, we want to share and teach that. mother told me, ―Whatever you do, don‘t We‘re able now because we‘ve become more speak English, or wacina [English language]. diversified to offer programs to our young [Sentence in Koasati that was then repeated people that give them that opportunity to in English as follows] Don‘t speak in Eng- learn. When we didn‘t have those programs lish to your own people.‖ available when we were young teenagers within our tribe, so you‘re seeing more of Darden: I guess for us, what happened with educating our young children on the culture, us, if you look back, our grandparents, you the language, giving them the opportunities had to ask them if you wanted to know any- that we didn‘t have. thing. The generation today, you don‘t have When we were doing our Federal rec- to come ask. With wanting to teach the kids ognition, I was even amazed to learn that in more and stuff, growing up not hearing the 1930s my father was not allowed to at- much, and I learned a lot from my grand- tend public schools. It was only until the mother because I talked to her a lot, and I 1940s that our tribal members were allowed asked her a lot of questions. If I didn‘t ask to attend the schools. We went to an Indian the questions, I didn‘t learn anything. school. That‘s one of the things that we‘ve Now today, we are a little different. lost or are losing some of the language be- All the stuff we have, we‘re pushing it on the cause they were made to, as Walter said, they kids at school. Within the community, we‘re only spoke Choctaw, and they were made to doing things that weren‘t done then. learn the English language. They were even, My grandparents‘ generation was a the school superintendents came out into our different generation. They were not open and homes and asked the parents to stop talking not out because, in early 1900s we had a lot Choctaw to their children so they would be of bad things happen at our community. If able to catch up in school. They were behind you were Indian, you were doing different because of the language barriers that existed. things. You couldn‘t even go in the store. Today, I think we have more re- You‘d get beat if you went in a white store, sources than ever before. We‘re able to give just all these things. Our people did, my our young people those opportunities that we grandparents, my great-grandparents, they never had growing up. I think you see that did all they could to fit into the community. there‘re more activities going on in learning That meant leaving things and not being open the culture, maintaining this identity of who with some of our cultural stuff, our language, we are as Indian people than ever before. all this. You didn‘t speak that outside. You didn‘t try to go in a store that you shouldn‘t Celestine: We were actually punished for go there. speaking our language in the school that I Actually the church in our commu- went to. I went to the principal‘s office regu- nity, right there in Charenton, the land came

31 from the tribe for the church. That was so way back. The little stories that we talk that we could, and actually, we got the last about also have a meaning that‘s deep inside seats in the house, behind everybody else. that sometimes you don‘t know until you‘re The land came from us, so that‘s kind of. . . . older. Then you get it. There‘s a lesson The church got the land from us to build the within that story, and you don‘t get it until all church. That way we also had place to bury of a sudden you say, ―Hey wait a minute. our people. We got away from the mounds This is what they were talking about,‖ when systems. I want to say early 1900s was the you get a little bit older, a little bit wiser. We last mound burials that we did. Starting in keep telling the stories over, and over, and the 1800s, we‘d have some within the church. over till. At that time, we didn‘t have it writ- They just did everything that fit into ten down. I still don‘t write. A lot of people the community. By doing so, my grand- tell me to write it, but I want to tell it to them mother, if I wanted to know anything, I had orally, over and over and over until some day to ask. She didn‘t openly just offer to me. they will get it. When you would ask, she would, vast knowl- edge, she would tell you. Anything you Question: It is related to your answers. I was asked, she would share with you. I would going to ask about how your youth programs, spend hours and hours with her. If you didn‘t what do they consist of? Are you are talking ask, and it was the same way with all of our about one week during the summer, after elders, if you didn‘t ask. . . . . school programs, all summer long? How in- The generation today where we are, tensive are those? you don‘t have to ask. We‘re pushing it on you. It‘s different for our kids today than it Celestine: The youth programs are actually, was when I was growing up or when my dad they try to work at different places. I‘m the was growing up. There‘s more push to know director of employment and training, and your history and to know your language, to they come in, and they want to learn about know your culture, the basketry, all the dif- how we do the employment and training pro- ferent things that make us who we are. I grams. But, at the same time, they also have, don‘t know if that answers you fully, but on Tuesdays and Thursdays. Tuesdays they that‘s kind of the way we‘ve evolved, I know, learn about their traditional culture. Thurs- within our community. days, you want to push them for a career. It‘s a parallel thing. You no longer have tradi- Celestine: Some of the kids, they actually tional Indians and progressive Indians. You want to learn now about our stories. We have have an Indian that has a parallel choice. elders that we taped telling the stories, video- They are going to learn about their culture taped and everything. It‘s really hard. It‘s because I don‘t want one of my tribal mem- kind of hard to get those elders to speak in bers to say, ―What‘s your tribal history?‖ ―I front of a camera. You have to face them and don‘t know.‖ I don‘t want them to say that. I ask them if you could tell a story. They‘ll tell want them to tell them who we are, and at the you the story. I was blessed because, every same time, I want them to be aggressive in night, we didn‘t have television or anything, their careers. That‘s why we have our com- so they‘d sit on the porch and tell you the sto- mittees. ries. I knew the stories. I‘m part of the Education Committee I tell my kids the stories, and they al- that oversees the Education Office. I‘m also ways, every time they were about to go to vice-chairman of the committee that oversees bed, I‘d tell them our stories that came from the Historical Preservation Office. The titles

32 don‘t mean anything because at the end, you Celestine: I mean they were very talented. I are going to do what is necessary to preserve was really surprised. There‘s certain things your culture. At the same time, you want to that they need to learn, and we try to cram it push these kids to get an education because in to them, I guess, right now. In the long that‘s what we‘re going to have to do. We‘re run, when I think about it, the people that are going to have to educate them, and at the tribal council members now, they‘re young. same time make sure that they know their They remember what we talked to them history and traditions and customs. about. They remember the traditions and they also went through college. Out of the Lee: So your youth program goes on all year? seven tribal council members in our tribal government, six out of the seven have a de- Celestine: Actually, it goes all year, but our gree. They also know their traditional histo- funding usually ends in the summer. From ries, and they remember as a youth. I was in June to August, right before they go to the youth thing, too, and I remember it. school, we kind of give them two weeks of free time. Before that, there are things that Question: I‘ve had a question running they actually have to shadow somebody. through my mind. John mentioned the six Shadow our tribal chairman, or whatever. thousand year history of you‘ve always been We want them to know what our government here. Just to look at the makeup of this panel, is about also. That‘s why we make them Native Americans and people of the tribe of shadow. academia, it‘s amazing that you can be sitting It depends. One time, I had the youth there together. You told us, Walter, how you go out and clean elders‘ yards. That was a reconcile your academic friend when he success because the elders got to know the would give you information that you don‘t kids. When somebody does something for agree with because it didn‘t come from the you, the elders would feed them and say, people. Is there a disconnect with your ―Who are you? Whose child are you?‖ They young people in hearing your stories, your would tell them. After a while even though history and then being exposed to archae- this project is over in the summer, the elders ology, anthropology, fossil evidence, other say, ―Leroy, how are you doing?‖ The kids things, how do they reconcile these two would say, ―Hi,‖ to the elders because they worlds? helped them paint their house or whatever. It was the youth meeting the elders. It was Celestine: It‘s just like me. Sometimes, I great. actually disagreed with my professor. Some- You have to be creative. Every sum- times he would bring documents in and say, mer you try to do something that kind of re- ―OK. Here are my documents and here‘s your flects back to your tribal government or your oral history.‖ Sometimes I would agree with tribal people. You kind of go to the govern- him in certain things but not agree with him ment and then back to the people. You kind in certain things. Our kids, they sometimes of switch it around or learn how to make go into the Internet and find information beadwork or basketry, which reminds me. about our tribal history. They‘ll ask. We My mom sent a basket for Dr. Gregory. I‘m have to be knowledgeable enough to tell telling you the kids made the baskets. It‘s a them OK. little bear. Question: Does it cause them to question Lee: That‘s great. tribal history? 33 Celestine: Oh, yeah. They do. It‘s good. If you. That‘s only kept within your people. they question it, you want to explain to them Some of those things that are written, you can the difference and the different mindsets. I talk to the youth if they ask, and you can tell don‘t agree with a lot of things, or I agree them the actual truth. I think they‘ll believe with certain things. Some things are specifi- you more than they are going to believe the cally documented because it happened in this book because we are our people. We‘ve al- century. The ones in the pre-Columbus days, ways been here, and we‘ve handed it down to and people are try to tell me in pre-Columbus one another. The books do contradict some days this happened, I‘m not going to believe things. There may be some that are going to them. You know what I‘m saying? have those questions. I haven‘t really found a big issue with it. We haven‘t had issues Darden: I guess the reason you won‘t believe with it. them, too, you have different versions of what really happened. If you look at what Pierite: Coming from the Tunica-Biloxi was written, kind of like what Walter said Tribe, we have Tunica, Ofo, Avoyelles, earlier, it‘s what was written, what they saw Choctaw, Biloxi, all those tribes coming to- through their eyes. It may not actually be the gether. We have, say the incident where way it happened or the way your people saw Moreau killed the chief. At that point is writ- it or what they experienced. We‘ve seen that ten that Eli Barbry said that from that point, in just the writings that we‘ve seen about the that‘s when the Indians scattered. We lost tribe. There are some things that have been our, we lost the tribe for a little bit there. We written where they‘ve mistaken things that came back together. Even today, when we‘re they‘ve seen. dealing with the satellite communities of I mean even from the basketry. Peo- Houston and Chicago and what we perceive ple would talk about our basketry. They al- as the core community of Marksville, the dis- ways say Chitimacha baskets are woven so connect is that you have these families that tight that they hold water. Actually, that‘s have existed and created their own communi- not why they hold water. There‘s a secret to ties outside of the Delta. When we talk to that, but they don‘t know that. When they them with authority about this is the tribal see it and they wrote it in the books, then, history and this is the core of it, then we also yes, they are beautiful baskets, fine basketry. begin a conversation of ―What was your ex- But no matter how tight you weave that cane, perience?‖ It‘s not for them to learn what it the water is going to leak out. I know. I‘ve is to be Indian in the Marksville sense, but been weaving a long time. My grandmother, what it is for them to be Indian. What was she told me that. People would look at that their experience of being Indian versus our and they would say that, but they wouldn‘t experience? How is that, how is the tribal tell them differently. They wouldn‘t tell history reconciled together through those dif- them, never told them what it really took to ferent communities? make the basket hold water. There are a lot of things in basketry that as basket makers we Question: In listening to the panel today, I keep to ourselves. see that your trying to preserve your heritage As a people there are some things that is essential. I feel it, too, and it should be. are out there that people may assume some- You talk about some of the Anglo world writ- thing, and you don‘t correct them on it. ing things that were not quite to the correct- That‘s something you know, and that‘s your ness. Do you feel that you want to educate knowledge, and that‘s passed down between the world to, not the things that you want to

34 keep secret, do you want to keep this among wrong. There‘s a historian called Howard yourselves and your youth, or would you like Martin who, actually, the Alabama-Coushatta to educate all of us to the true history of the Tribe made him our tribal historian. He Native Americans? wrote a thesis about us at Sam Houston State University. I read it, and I said, ―This is Celestine: I do lectures all over the United wrong.‖ I was young. He said, ―This means States about our tribal history because I want ‗big grounds.‘ It‘s bit kuh.‖ In my language, people to know who we are, as a native per- it meant ―a place to dance.‖ He was saying son. With this program that I work with at that it meant ―big grounds.‖ I said, ―No, it‘s the Department of Labor, I get to meet all the not. ‗Bit kuh‘ means it‘s ‗a place to dance.‘‖ different tribes in the fifty states, including He said, ―No, no, no, no. It‘s documented Native Alaskans. I‘ve seen their ceremonies right here, right here.‖ He started showing me and traditional customs. I was always inter- references. That‘s when I realized. Wait a ested in native people. minute. I know my language. It can‘t change I would read books when I was a kid. that much. That‘s why I started questioning. I probably read every library book there was In my mind, I want that proof. Dr. George in my little high school, which at that time Langford, he is one-quarter Choctaw, believe averaged about 500 people from kindergarten it or not. Sometimes he would prove it to me, to high school. I would read these books, and and I would agree with him. You have to then I would ask the elders of those tribes always look at it to see if it‘s true or not. because I was on the powwow trail. I was a You‘d have to research, too. champion fancy war dancer, they called it. I went all over the place just like a rodeo cir- Gregory: We probably have time for one cuit. I‘d go dance everywhere. When I was more question. That lady has been waiting. there, I would ask some of these elders, and they said, ―No. This is what we meant.‖ Question: Actually, my question relates to That‘s why I started questioning. I‘m very several of the questions that each of you have lucky to ask other tribes how they felt about brought up. You were mentioning that young some of those things that were written about people, what they do is they go to Google them. That‘s when I started realizing that, first, or they have the new smart phones, and hey, this is not our thinking, but somebody they have all of this technology. In an ideal else‘s thinking. world, they would go straight to the elders I want people to know who I am. I and ask those types of questions. They don‘t mind talking to groups of people. Be- would be able to learn the true version and lieve it or not, I was sixteen years old when I not the European version of what y‘all have worked for public relations for my tribe. experienced. What kind of technologies are That‘s how I could talk to non-Indians with- y‘all using, and are you using any technology out any problems. Before that, I was scared to reach out to children who might Google? to talk to even my own people. If there was a They might say, I‘m shy and I don‘t want to group of people, I didn‘t want to talk. When I ask this person. I‘ll Google it later. How can did public relations for our tourism, we used you pass on that information to the kids? to have the tourism at the Alabama tribe, ride the little train and all that stuff. I learned to Celestine: We have a lot of projects going on communicate with people. at one time. One of the things that we are I‘m not trying to say it‘s right or doing now is our Head Start Department. wrong, but I want to question it, if I think it‘s We‘re actually trying to put our tribal stories 35 into cartoons. The little kids like to see these kin they are. It‘s something that we‘re work- cartoons over, and over, and over. We ing on that needs to be done. Christine and wanted to do it in our language. It‘s a mix- I, our generation, we knew everybody. First ture of Alabama, Coushatta, non-Indians, cousins, we knew each other. We spent the whites, blacks, Hispanics, to our little Head night with each other. I see this generation Start program. They learn ―Itsy Bitsy Spider‖ coming up now, they don‘t even know who and all that in our language. They actually their first cousins are. They don‘t know who sing it. We‘re creating cartoons with our lan- their grandfathers were. It‘s like they‘ve guage so the little kids can see it over and missed something with that generation there. over. It‘s missing. We have a touch screen thing where This program went really well. The you have a tree there, and then you touch it. youth were shy about asking the elders In one place it says, ―It to.‖ If you punch it to things. They couldn‘t really believe. The where normal, ―It tok.‖ We‘re working on a elders would say, ―We didn‘t have bathrooms touch screen type thing through the computer back then. We had to get water from the system. well.‖ They told things that these kids can‘t There‘s so much that we can do to imagine ever happening. It was a real good keep them interested. We try to work each night. I think it is something that we need to one a little at a time. To me, I don‘t have that continue to do. That was really good. much time, but I want to do everything I can, We have a Project Venture group that and hopefully somebody behind me is going does things. They get together once a week to do the same thing and maybe improve it. I in the evenings at night. They eat and they want to set it up and then let them improve it. do projects. I think they are going to start do- We can use the technology to really set their ing projects like mowing the yards for the old minds. At the same time, our elders, they‘re people, just things like that. It is a group of not going to be there. Either I talk to them mostly teenagers. face-to-face or not. We have to kind of We have summer camp once a year, charm them into giving that videotape. It‘s just three or four days for kindergarteners not that easy. through about sixteen. At that camp, they get a little bit of culture. They get healthy learn- Smith: Our Social Services Department did a ing. We bring in dancers. The traditional one-night thing where we had elders come in people come in and show them how to carve, and youth come in. We had supper. Of show them how to make baskets. I go in with course, when you have Indians, you have to language. We have that once a year as a have food. If you‘ve got food, you‘re going summer project. to get them there. That‘s true with Indians Sometimes at Christmas, we try to too. We had food, and we had elders come give some of the kids that volunteer. We‘ll in. She had it worked out where each youth do a little Christmas play. There are activi- had a question. They were sitting across ties with the youth, but we really need more from each other. The youth would have their with the elders. It‘s something that we need question, and they would pick out a person to to work on. We really do need to work on ask. That elder would have to answer the that. question for the youth. We only did that one time. We were going to do it more. Pierite: In terms of the technologies that we The youth really don‘t even know use for our effort in particular, it boils down who the elders are. They don‘t know what to the brain, the mouth, and an old blue suit-

36 case, and just going out to as many people, ers and storytellers, to try to find every outlet tribal members and non-tribal members alike. possible. We have our alligator shows in the When we talk to the people of Avoyelles and Casino right now. That appeals to the youth Rapides Parishes and say, ―This is part of and it appeals to non-tribal youth and tribal your history, too, because we have relations.‖ youth. It has them coming back. Also, we This is our shared history as a greater com- find that older people, tribal and non-tribal, munity. they say, ―Oh, yeah.‖ Even the fact that I think when it comes down to what we‘re Indian and we speak French. ―Oh, the European version of history, there could yeah,‖ and they‘ll start connecting that way. be an assiduous agenda saying, ―We‘re It‘s showing people to celebrate. If you Christian, and these are savages, and we want would say like my great-grandfather told to portray them as such.‖ Even with the best him, ―Celebrate all of who you are.‖ That‘s of intentions, when you‘re wiggling your the thing that‘s got to click. hand, writing down stuff, there‘s stuff that. . . . Gregory: We need to take a break. We‘re When Indians tell stories, it just kind going to let Jean Luc and his mother and sis- of goes just right along together. It could be ter sing a little and tell stories. We will have the most important bit could get lost in a ram- a little informance. I don‘t think they‘ll mind ble. Like what Walter said, it takes time for if you ask them questions during that session, these things to sit with you. You could write too. Let‘s take a little break. We‘re a little down that stuff today. Five years down the off schedule, but we‘ll get back on one. road, it clicks. Now it‘s already written. It was already the authority. Now, it finally Smith: We operate on Indian time. dawns on me, even with my best of inten- tions. The best thing is to try to, as the sing-

37 Saving Songs and Stories

Tunica-Biloxi Singers: Donna Pierite, Elisabeth Pierite Mora, Jean Luc Pierite

L-R: Jean Luc Pierite, Elisabeth Pierite Mora, and Donna Pierite

The Pierite Family Singers

A thousand years ago, long before the invasion of the white man or the introduction of Africans and other people, there was music in the Delta. The Tunica and Biloxi people saw DeSoto and his men encounter the Mississippi River for the first time. It was a river the tribal people had known for at least 8,000 years.

Dance and song are synonymous in Indian culture, and religious and secular worlds blend im- perceptibly into one another, held there by music.

The Pierite family, descended from two tribal lines that fuse, descended from two lines of tradi- tion, offer insights into southeastern secular and religious music that are often hidden nor ob- served in more modern pow-wow venues. Non-Indian people now see the successes of the tribes in the Delta. Casinos have replaced tar-paper sharecropper cabins, and hotels now an- nounce tribal areas to visitors. Still, the music in the minds and hearts of the Indian people are what the Pierites strive to preserve, teach and share. Welcome to the American Indian heart of Delta music.

38 SESSION II

39 40 Session II – The Creole Community: Continuity & Renaissance

Moderators: Dr. Deborah Clifton, Sheila Richmond Participants: Joe Citizen, Tracey Colson, Sherman Cravins, Goldman Thibodeaux, Theresa Thibodeaux

All conversation spoken in Creole/French has been translated and identified in italics.

Pete Gregory: I‘m going to let Ms. Sheila kind of be the mod- erator, she and Dr. Deborah Clifton. Mr. and Mrs. Goldman Thibodeaux, Tracey Colson, Sherman Cravins, Mr. Joe Citi- zen, that‘s our Creole panel for the afternoon. Afterwards, we‘ll have a little informance. Some of us have had the privi- L-R: Joe Citizen, Sherman Cravins, Tracey Colson, Theresa Thibodeaux, lege of knowing and hearing Goldman Thibodeaux, Dr. Deborah Clifton these guys before. Sheila, you and Debbie want to start? Theresa Thibodeaux: Introduce who you are, Joe. Sheila Richmond: I‘m going to keep my re- marks as much to a minimum as I possibly Richmond: Introduce yourself. can because I really want all of these folks to talk about their culture and so forth. What I Joe Citizen: I’m Joe Citizen. I come from am going to do and try to remind everybody, Opelousas. I was raised in Mallet in St. if someone asks you a question from the au- Landry Parish. I was raised there, farming. dience, would you repeat the question before We raised cotton, corn, potatoes. My late you answer it just so that we can get it on the father came from Church Point, and my recording devices? Dr. Gregory has intro- mother came from Mallet. Currently, I live in duced everybody. It would be nice if you say the town of Opelousas since my mother and your name again before you start speaking. father died. Hurricane Audrey in 1957, that We‘re just going to let them go. Please, it‘s was some really bad weather. After that, I informal like this morning. Interrupt at any went to school in Opelousas. I then went to time you have a question. Let us know what work in Baton Rouge. I joined the union AFL you want to know about, and these folks will -CIO in 1957. That was the second time in tell you something about their culture. Who the labor movement and worked in cement would like to start? Mr. Joe, you‘re on the production as a laborer. I did that for ten end. Would you like to start talking about. . . years. . ? At home we played the music called La La, Zydeco music, La La. Before that, I played the harmonica. We called that mouth 41 music. I started playing that in 1947. We had French, so if you could also. . . . It‘s fine that a little band in the Mallet area. There were you speak your language because that gives just three in our band, a man who played gui- you a sense of where they are coming from, tar, a man who played drums, and I played but also if you could explain what you just the harmonica. I stopped that to begin work- said in English, that would be helpful to most ing. Now I no longer play the harmonica. I everyone here. play the music that interests the young peo- ple, Zydeco and blues music. We play Creole Citizen: My name is Joseph Citizen. They music, La La music from the 1920s, 1930s, call me Zydeco Joe. I was born and raised in and 1940s until the 1950s. That’s when we Mallet, Louisiana, which is just about, I started with Zydeco and blues music. We, would say, about five miles west of Ope- Goldman Thibodeaux and the Lawtell Play- lousas on [Hwy.] 190. I was raised in the boys, began in 1946, and we continue to play field picking cotton, digging sweet potatoes, the same kind of music. We are the only and raising corn. Being raised in Mallet, my band that plays Creole music, La La, from daddy died in 1957, living on the farm be- the old days. All the other who play music cause of Hurricane Audrey. I went to school play mainly Zydeco and blues. We play only in Lawtell, my elementary school. Then I Creole music because if you can’t speak Cre- went to high school in Opelousas. After ole and you don’t know what you are saying, 1957, I joined the union, Local 1177 in Baton you can’t play like it’s supposed to be played. Rouge. I was a labor man working with AFL- We are going to play Creole music and not CIO at one time local business agent for Lo- Zydeco. That’s it. cal 1177. I did this for fifty years and I retired from labor, the union AFL-CIO. First, when I Sherman Cravins: I’m Sherman Cravins. I started playing music, it was harmonica mu- come from Mallet. I was raised in Mallet un- sic. I played what you call harmonica which til I was a young man. I moved to Houston they call it a mouth organ, some people call for twenty years. I’ve been back for about it. I played that music back in ‘43, ‘44, ‘45. thirty years. I moved to Mallet; in fact, I live We had three people play in the band. We in Swords. For about the past thirty years, had guitar, drums, and harmonica, which I I’ve been trying to learn my language. We was on the harmonica. We did this for a are very interested in speaking with all of while until about the early ‗50s. After that I you. We’ll let you know what we know, quit because I was doing construction work. where our people come from. Mr. Citizen I started playing back again the scrub board, told you about the music. The music, they say which I play with Goldman Thibodeaux and all the time, they want to pass Zydeco music the Lawtell Playboys. We are the only ones and Creole music, but Zydeco music is not that play French music. We feel that if you Creole music, at all. The music of the Creole can‘t talk the language and you don‘t know people is La-la music, the same music they what you‘re saying, you can‘t play that mu- play. Mr. Goldman and Mr. Joe are the only sic. We are the only band that has been go- ones today who can play that music. The mu- ing on since 1946, this band was started. We sic is dead. After them, it’s gone. Thank you. give you three hours of French music, French La La music and talk in French and sing in Richmond: How many of you followed both French. We‘ve been doing this every since. conversations? A few of you. I think too As people die in the band, they are being re- many in the audience are not going to under- placed with new people, but keep the same stand when you speak Creole or speak tradition of Creole music, which is the La La

42 music, the music of the 1920s. This is it. family links, and family ties, and how impor- tant that was. I had all these other very inter- Cravins: I‘m Sherman Cravins. I‘m from esting great people that entered my life when Mallet. I was actually born and raised and I was very young like Dr. Gregory, Mr. and raised the same way Mr. Citizen was. We Mrs. Thibodeaux, Mr. Sherman, that gave me had a farm, born and raised on a farm. As a a different aspect and a different look at what young man I left and went to Houston for my culture was, not only in the way that I twenty years. I‘ve been back in the Mallet perceived it, but in the way other people per- area for thirty years. It‘s beginning to tell my ceived it. age to some degree. I came back. I wanted I guess probably when I was twelve, to be back home and get closer to my culture, thirteen years old, junior high school, and I re-learn my people. I‘ve been pretty well in- tell this story every time because it helps peo- volved in the Creole culture ever since I came ple I‘m talking to, to kind of understand back because I wanted to know more. I where I‘m coming from, and why I‘m so pas- wanted to get to the roots of it. I‘m very, sionate about what I do and the things that I very pleased with what I found. As we were say. It was first day of school, seventh or discussing on the way here, today in fact. I eighth grade. It was eighth grade. We went had a discussion with a brother of mine last to homeroom. I was quite proud of myself night. We are a Creole people, but we speak because that was one of the first years when the French language, Louisiana French lan- Momma and Daddy didn‘t walk with you guage. There are communities in Louisiana into the classroom and all of that. The first where there are Creole people who speak thing they did was hand out these blue cards. Creole because they come from a different You put your name and your address and background. We speak the Louisiana French. male/female, all of this, your emergency con- That‘s it. tact information. One of the blanks said ―Race.‖ That was never discussed in my Tracey Colson: I‘m the renaissance part of house. That was never talked about; that was this panel, I guess, because I‘m the youngest. never asked. It was never an issue. I really Ms. Theresa‘s really youngest. didn‘t even understand what that meant. I just left it blank. The teacher walked around. He picked up everybody‘s card. He looked at Theresa: I wish I was. mine, and he said, ―You have to put some-

thing.‖ I said, ―I don‘t have to put anything.‖ Colson: You are. You really are. I‘ve been He said, ―No. You have to put something involved with the Creole Heritage Center because I have to turn this in to the office. It since there was no Creole Heritage Center, goes to the school board.‖ I‘m in eighth when the Creole Heritage Center was in my grade. I said, ―It can go to the office, and it parents‘ living room. We had meetings at can go to the school board, but I‘m not going whoever was willing to cook dinner that to fill in a blank with something that I don‘t night. I had to go because I was the baby. understand, that I don‘t identify with.‖ He Everybody else was going to be there, so stood in front of the class and announced to there was nobody to babysit. That was my everybody that I didn‘t know who I was: introduction. I would sit down. I couldn‘t ―She doesn‘t even know what she is.‖ That‘s watch TV, and I couldn‘t read a book. I had why I tell everybody, ―Don‘t ask me what I to sit there and listen. I listened, and I lis- am because who I am is so much more inter- tened, and I learned about genealogy, about esting. It‘s so much more entertaining.‖ I

43 went home, and I told Mom what happened. Creole. They‘d talk amongst themselves. She was at school the next day in classic They couldn‘t understand each other. She Janet fashion with a whole lot to say. That learned. She paid close attention to them talk- was when I really said, ―You know what? ing. At the age of fifty years old, probably, I‘m Creole.‖ I‘m not going to be forced to forty- eight, forty-nine, she could talk it identify as one thing or another because what pretty good. Probably it wasn‘t the best, but I am is a mixture of many different things she could tell you if she was hungry or she and many different cultures. It‘s not fair for was thirsty or whatever. me to say that I‘m this race or that race be- cause I don‘t identify with race. I identify That’s where I come from. I come from a with culture. My culture is Creole. Creole family. My father and mother made fields of potatoes, cotton to work in. After Theresa: I‘m Theresa Thibodeaux. I‘m mar- Theresa and I married, I worked the fields ried to Goldman Thibodeaux. I‘m from Mal- and worked construction. We have two sons. let, between Lawtell and Eunice. I was born and raised in Mallet, went to school at St. We have two sons. We are here today in Ann‘s Catholic Church. It was a Catholic hope that we can help y‘all. If y‘all think school. They only taught till the eighth there‘s anything that we can do to help y‘all, grade, from first to eighth. They didn‘t have y‘all make sure to ask the questions. That‘s any pre-kindergarten. We were all first what we‘re here for. We appreciate all of grade, no primer. I was brought up on the y‘all. farm. My mom was Lula Derousseau Leday. My dad was LeRoy Leday. My dad was Theresa: Thank y‘all everybody for every- from the Washington area. My mom was body for coming. from Mallet. That‘s about it. Goldman: Thank you to everybody who for My name is Theresa Thibodeaux. I come coming. Thanks to everybody who could from Mallet, Louisiana. It’s west of Ope- come. lousas, a little place called Mallet. I went to school at St. Ann Catholic School at Mallet. Deborah Clifton: I am Debbie Clifton. My I was right next to the church. We had a big family comes from around Lake Charles. church, St. Ann. We have two sons. One is a When I was a small girl, my mother fell sick. nurse and the other is the manager of a deal- My father had to go to work. So, my grand- ership. We have four grandchildren. parents raised me. That’s how I learned to speak Creole. When I was about eighteen or Goldman: I’m Goldman Thibodeaux. I‘m nineteen years old, my grandmother told me Goldman Thibodeaux. I grew up in Mallet, that there are problems because our lan- Lawtell, a little bit around Lewisburg. How guage and all of that was dying. There were many people in here heard about Lewisburg not young people who wanted to speak Cre- with Church Point? Really my roots are ole that cared anything for it. She said, around Mallet and Lawtell. I grew up in a “Why don’t you work with that and try to do Creole family. My momma couldn‘t speak something, teach and school, and all of that.” English. She learned from the grandchildren. I did that. That’s how I began working for My oldest brothers and sisters would bring the language. While I was doing that, I met the children for them to go to work. They Mr. and Mrs. Thibodeaux. I also met lots of couldn‘t understand what she was talking in 44 the people here. I began to work for the cul- Richmond: Both if you can, if you don‘t ture at eighteen or nineteen years old. To- mind. day, I’m sixty years old. It has been a long time that I’ve been working for this. It gives Citizen: I‘ll start with English first. I would me great pleasure. I love my culture very like for our culture to continue if we could much, and I love the people. find some young people that would be inter- ested in keeping the traditional culture, My name is Debbie Clifton. My family is French, I should say Creole, culture going, if from the Lake Charles area. When I was a we could find them somewhere. We would small child, my mother fell sick, and my fa- love to have somebody come back because ther had to go to work. My paternal grand- after we are gone, we aren‘t going to have parents took and raised me. That was how I anybody else to do it. learned to speak the language. When I was about eighteen, nineteen years old, my grand- We would be happy to have people, young mother said to me, ―Things are getting kind people, who are interested in speaking Cre- of bad. Looks like the language and the cul- ole and our Creole culture from a long time ture and everything are dying out, and there‘s ago. Helping the young to continue what is hardly any young people taking an interest in going on now, something that [Inaudible] to it. Maybe you should get into this because it show people that where we’ve been, we don’t looks like you are going to have a good edu- want people to forget where we’ve been and cational background. You‘ll be able to make what we’ve done [Inaudible] Creole. some contributions.‖ I took her at her word, got involved with the language and every- Colson: Just off of what Mr. Joe was saying, thing, and have worked on it ever since. I got what he‘s saying is exactly true. That‘s what to know Mr. and Mrs. Thibodeaux when I I‘ve been speaking about and trying to get was young and have worked with them. I got people to understand and trying to go through to work with all these other good people that different avenues to where there are younger are here. I have a lot of love for the culture people. I think what we‘re trying to do as a and for the people. Now, I‘m sixty. I‘ve group, I think, Mr. Joe, is to get people to not been working on this for forty some years. I only learn about the Creole culture, but to get wouldn‘t have my life any other way. Thank Creole people now to be more vocal and ac- you. cepting of their Creole culture and to learn the traditional things about the culture, and Richmond: As you can tell by what you‘ve not just what‘s cool and what‘s ―in‖ right heard so far, language is important for the now. It was real ―in‖ to be Cajun for a Creole culture. Music is important for the while. They had a Cajun everything. They Creole culture. What other things would you had a Cajun toilet, and a Cajun spoon, and it like to pass on that you‘d like to see con- was real cool to be Cajun. It‘s getting really tinue? We‘ve heard a little bit about how you cool and ―in‖ to be Creole. What we‘re try- folks grew up. A lot of you were on the ing to do, and I think what we‘re all trying to farm. How many people are farming now? do collectively, and a lot of people in this That kind of thing. What would you like to room, is to not only educate people about see happening within your culture in the next what the Creole culture is, but to urge them to few years, besides language? Mr. Joe? carry on the traditions of the culture. What I tell a lot of people, a lot of times, it‘s really Citizen: English or French? great to go look at books and to look at 45 church records and figure out what your ge- gone, it‘s gone. That‘s a big part of our cul- nealogy is and to draw those lines and make ture. I think you should call me every day those links. That‘s great, and it‘s great to fig- and teach me. ure that out. What‘s even more important is that you go to the people that you still have. I Theresa: You are welcome to come home still have them. These are honorary grand- and sit and listen and learn. We are trying to parents. I can still go and ask questions and keep our language the Creole language alive. ask for stories. At this time, and this is what We‘ve been helping students from UL. I‘m urging a lot of the Gen Xers, my genera- They‘ve been coming home and sitting with tion, the ones that are coming after me, is to us and recording. They would tell us in Eng- not only go and ask the questions, but it‘s so lish what they wanted to know, and we would easy to take out our phone, now, and record a tell it to them in French, in Creole. We‘d tell whole conversation, video it, something so them, and they would write it down. They that you have it. Like Mr. Joe said, once were recording it. We had several of them they‘re gone, the language is going to be come. They sent us a report that they had gone, this language. It‘s great when there‘re passed their grade and how they were happy. people that are teaching it, but there‘s also a During the month of July, we had a lot of discord about what‘s the right dialect lady from New York. She wanted to learn and all. This is it to me. This is it. This is the Creole music stuff. She was down for what I identify and know as our Creole lan- three weeks. By the time she left, the end of guage. I‘m hoping that we do get younger that three weeks, she could play anything people involved and that people are more in- Goldman would ask her to play. She did real volved in what the traditional music is. That good. She could speak it. She was picking was the music that I remember. I‘m still not up. We‘d talk to her in Creole. We would on the nouveau Zydeco train. No, I‘m not have her to answer what we told her. She getting on that train. could do all of that by the time she left. She She‘s fussing at me, and this is my gave us a phone call and said that her mom point that you need to say it in French now. and dad were so proud of what we had helped We weren‘t taught. My parents‘ generation, her do. when they were in school, especially up here, Y‘all want me to tell y‘all that in the nuns would slap them in the back of the French now? head or pop them on the hand with a ruler for talking in French at school. You needed to Richmond: Ms. Theresa, you mentioned that speak in English. You needed to speak in you have two sons. Do your sons speak? English. Once we came around. . . . I know my grandparents spoke it, great aunts, the Theresa: Yeah. The oldest one, he could older people. I heard it all of the time. I kind of speak a little bit. With him being a would say, ―What does that mean?‖ ―You nurse, a lot of time he had to call us on the don‘t need to know. That‘s so you don‘t phone. He had patients he was taking care of know what we are talking about. Don‘t worry that didn‘t speak English. They would only about it.‖ We weren‘t taught. All of us know speak French Creole. He would ask us, little bits here and there. I can listen and get ―How to say such and such thing? I need to the idea of what they‘re talking about, but we repeat that to them.‖ Then he picked it up. weren‘t taught. There is a big movement He‘s doing good now. Our younger son, he‘d among young people now to learn the lan- work with the dealerships. He can defend guage and to understand it because once it‘s himself much better than the older one. He

46 picked it up much easier. I guess by him be- do it, y‘all can. That‘s what we‘re here today ing younger, it was easier than the older one. to question what y‘all would like to know, how you repeat, how you say it. Y‘all ask us. We had some students from Lafayette, from We‘d like to help y‘all as much as we can, all UL, that came to take lessons on Creole like of us. us. We helped them. There were a lot of things that they had to do for the lessons. We Theresa: Anybody who‘d like to get in touch helped them, and they did very well. I had a with us, they look under the directory in woman from New York who came. She came Lawtell. We‘re listed in the phone book, but for the music and the Creole language. She in the Lawtell area under Goldman‘s name. stayed three weeks. She wasn’t at the house every day, but for the three weeks, she came Goldman: That‘s what we do best, help peo- two times a week. When she left, she learned ple. That‘s what it‘s all about. My daddy everything she needed to know. We are try- taught us, ―Help. Help people. You cannot ing to teach our grandchildren to speak Cre- live by yourself. You must love people, re- ole. spect people. Don‘t be jealous.‖ Jealousy is a disease, a sad disease. There‘s no doctor Goldman: There was this nurse from Shreve- and no medication to cure that. It‘s a disease. port. She was working at the Opelousas Gen- It is. It is a serious disease. OK, my daddy eral. taught me one time. We were poor people. We had plenty to eat. They‘d raise all their Theresa: Linda. Her name was Linda. stuff, hogs, chickens, garden, and grow all that stuff. Money, they had very little Goldman: Her name was Linda. She said, money. He said, ―Don‘t be jealous. If your ―We spoke to Charles.‖ That‘s our son. ―He little friend comes, probably his family is said y‘all could help me. A lot of time I‘ve more able than what we are. But he got him a got patients. I would ask, ―Where are you new bike. Tell him how pretty. Don‘t be jeal- hurting?‖ They would have to show her. ous. The good Lord is going to make a way. You are going to get one. Jealousness, there‘s no doctor can cure that and no medi- Theresa: At the arm or what? cation.‖ He said, ―Love people.‖

Sometimes people ask you a favor. Goldman: She said, ―How do you pronounce Sometime you can‘t do it. It‘s not all the this?‖ We all know in English, that‘s an arm. time you can, but if you can, do it. You are That‘s your arm. Your arm. She said, ―If going to gain. their leg or ankle was hurting, how would I‘m going to repeat it in Creole. If you say your knee is hurting?‖ Your knee. you can help someone, if you can help some- Ankle. Your ankle. She had a little recorder. body. Sometimes it is impossible. Some- She came every time she‘d come, she‘d stay times you just can‘t. Help him. Help him. over the week in Opelousas. Then on week- Don‘t be jealous. ends, she‘d go back home in Shreveport. Sherman over there, he‘s going to say, Every time she‘d get off, she‘d pass the little ―Well, could you help me?‖ You see way recorder. She‘d play it all the way back. Af- back we had a lot of that. We had a lot of ter she did that for the fourth week, she said, that. They‘d call that helping hand [coup de ―Thank you. I can do it now.‖ If anybody in main]. If people in the neighborhood had here is interested and want to learn, want to sickness or death in the family, people would

47 get together. I remember my daddy and dren, they enjoy our foods. The culture as a them, when they‘d get through working, whole, this is going to be one area that I feel cleaning their crop, all the people in the area that the ones coming behind us are going to and the neighbors, they‘d come there and be able to be identified by, by the food. Per- help those people, help them and work to- sonally, I would like to see them being able gether. As today, all that is gone. I hate to to identify by the language. say the word I‘m going to say, but looks like Of course, it‘s not too late. I was everybody is walking with their head up . . . . forty years old, before I, probably forty-five I‘ll say it that way – dog eat dog. Dog eat years old, before I held a conversation in dog. I think that we are going about it the French. My grandmother could not speak a wrong way. You won‘t gain; you‘re going to word in English. Mom and daddy communi- lose. If I go out of my way to help you, you cated strictly in French. It was not in a way probably have got car problems or a thing on to keep us from knowing what they were say- the road. A lot of people say, ―No, that‘s just ing. That was their form of communication. a waste of time.‖ No. You don‘t know. It We came out of a household with. . . . We could be me next. Nobody knows. Creole were nine siblings; our grandmother was language, if we don‘t influence people, en- there for a long period of time. We had five courage people, more people to speak first cousins that were there. We never had a French, Creole. Influence people, encourage big family. It was never a big family, large people. Pretty soon our grandchildren, great- family. We were raised on the farm. We had grandchildren, probably some of y‘all. Most everything we needed for food and clothing. of y‘all in here are adults, maybe. But still, I was the oldest son, so I guess, the others it‘s never too old. If want to speak, you want had hand-me-downs. We never knew we to keep alive something, you can pass it [on]. were a large family. We never knew we were If you learn something, you can pass it down poor because we had ample to eat. We had to your grandchildren or your great- shoes to go to school. At that time, there were grandchildren. That‘s what I think. It‘s very only certain months of the year you wore important. shoes. I would like to, and my dream would Theresa: He spoke about being jealous. Jeal- be that we would continue to, at least, strug- ousy. He just made a record. They put it all gle to try and get this very rich culture to sur- together, and they have a new CD that is just vive. I have a very, very deep appreciation out. [Inaudible]. for what the people are doing here, the people from Natchitoches and Cane River have been Cravins: One of the hopes that I would have doing for all of these years. I go back many, for Creole culture, if we could re-, I guess, many years ago with our ambassador, Terrel regenerate some interest in the culture as a Delphin. The man has been a true ambassa- whole to our younger people. In small pock- dor for the language. People like this, they‘re ets, small segments of the community, the irreplaceable, totally irreplaceable. We have culture, the food, and a lot of it. . . . The to continue to struggle. I do feel that if food is something that‘s going to thrive. there‘s a community, a Creole community, That‘s something that‘s very well alive. It‘s anywhere in the state or anywhere, we are going to continue to live because people en- struggling now, but we have held our own joy our food. They‘re not always the best of better and longer than anywhere else that I food for your cholesterol and health, but peo- know. The community of Mallet. We can ple enjoy our foods. Our children, grandchil- still walk out of church on any given day and

48 have a conversation in French. That‘s not English first. It looks like that‘s what my something you are going to find in many panel [did], started talking English and then communities. go back to French. When I came up, when I was born, I can remember back when I was I would be happy if we could pass this on to three years old. My parents talked Creole. our children because we have a worry today The neighborhood in Mallet, next door because the young people do not know how to neighbor and further down the road, every- speak the language of French, French or body would speak Creole. I didn‘t know how Creole, whatever someone wants to call it. to speak English. When I started school, I One thing that will live on is the food. Every- started school at nine years old. The reason one loves our food. One thing we do is we why I started at nine years old, you probably cook very, very well. My children cannot weren‘t living in those areas, I was living so speak the language, but they cook just like my far from the school. We didn‘t have a bus. grandmother did. We need to continue and There was a law against a black person riding work all we can to save and carry on our lan- a bus. We had to walk to school. You had to guage. It is not anyone’s fault, in one way, be big enough and strong enough that when that we are losing the language. When chil- you passed in front of the white people‘s dren went to school, they couldn’t speak the houses, the dogs would run, and you could language. It was something that wasn’t. . . . run fast enough so the dogs wouldn‘t catch They would laugh at the children, one thing you. You had to be about nine or ten years and another. old. For me to go to school, I was nine when I got started. The first time when I went to Theresa: She has a question for you, school, the teacher was a lady who couldn‘t Sherman. speak Creole. I would sit down in class and wouldn‘t open my mouth because I didn‘t know what was going on. My mother knew a Richmond: Question? little bit. Whatever was said, I would go back

and repeat it to my mother. She would repeat Question: Tracey was talking about how they it in English, the teacher‘s words. Along did not speak the language, partially because about in 1948, the law passed that we could it just wasn‘t spoken in the home and then have school buses. Then I had a chance to also because of the school environment ride a bus to go to school, so I didn‘t have to [Inaudible]. In the case of the other individu- worry about the dogs biting me and running als, I wonder how it is that you were able to behind me. Then I started going to my ele- preserve the language other than it spoken in mentary school. I graduated in eighth grade. the home? Did you have the same experi- When we got to high school, away from Mal- ences at school? Do you think your environ- let, that was in Opelousas, which was about ment, being in that farm environment, helped ten miles from my house, or fifteen because I you to preserve it more than had you been in was living back in the country. When we‘d another environment? get back in school, we were quiet. We would all ride the bus, a group of us Creole children. Richmond: [to the panel] Please repeat the The teachers would look at us and say we question into the microphone. were the best students they had in class. The reason why we were so good because we did- Citizen: I‘ll be glad to answer your question, n‘t know what was going on too much. We ma‘am, as much as I can. I‘ll start off in would be quiet. Our daddy would tell us, ―If

49 you don‘t know anything, you don‘t know more it comes to you. As far as the problems about something, don‘t say anything. Just be that I‘ve seen, we were fortunate. Our quiet.‖ Everybody would say, ―Oh those mother spoke English well. When we started country children, those are real good chil- school, we were prepared. We went to school dren. They sit down all day long, and they like the American people. When I say this, I don‘t say anything in school.‖ Because they know that the other people on the panel really don‘t know exactly what‘s going on. I probably can relate to this. When we were can go back and tell it to you in French if you coming up, we had three nationalities of peo- want. From then on, that‘s when I learned ple in our community. It was us, the Creoles; really when I went to high school. After I it was the Americans that spoke English only; finished high school, I was in pretty good and the local whites which were all of the shape. All the time when I was coming up, I Cajun culture. That was the three. No matter had it very bad. who you were, no matter what the color of that person‘s skin was, if they came into the Cravins: It was my experience as a child. . . . community, and they were English speaking How were we able to maintain the language I person, they were un Americain. Mr. Gold, is think the question was, if I remember cor- that right? Do you remember that? rectly. As a child, we dealt with our grand- mother that could not speak a word of Eng- Goldman: Sure, sure. lish. In the home, both parents would speak French. I guess we picked up words here and Cravins: That was the way it was. there because we communicated with her. I remember very well some of the stories she Goldman: It was common. told me from many, many years from her an- cestors. I know she told them to me in Cravins: That was the. . . . I have a first French. There are certain times in your life cousin that started school. His mother had you just cannot relate to the words or your died at childbirth. He could not speak a word feedback. You know what came to you, but in English. In fact, that same baby, I told you you remember how you said it back. I know all about the five siblings that stayed with us that we did. As far as holding a conversation for about five years. He was the sibling as a youngster in French, I never did. I went whose mother died at his birth. Mom and away. I came back, and I started picking up daddy went to get the baby the day after the pieces here and there. As far as being able to mother‘s death. Someone else had put in a comprehend, I comprehended everything, claim for him. Mom and daddy would have everything in French. Now, I find myself taken him home. They would have raised also comprehending in French, I‘m able to him with us. Like I said, we never knew we think in French. When I‘m doing something, were a large family – how, I don‘t know. I‘m going to talk to Sherman in French. This This child went through so much. He was is something that happens by, it started hap- spoiled; he was ridiculed; he was just plain pening by accident. Now, I promote it. I miserable because he could not speak the lan- also find that I‘ll go up to do business with guage. I‘m sure today, in fact, whenever I someone, a lot of times, instead of saying communicate with him, I try to communicate ―thank you,‖ I‘ll say, ―Merci.‖ It just comes with him in French. I remind him of what he out naturally. I find myself putting out a lot went through: ―This is your heritage. You of French words out there in a totally English may have been given a hard time for it, but setting. I guess the more you practice it, the

50 that‘s your heritage. That‘s yours; no one me? can take it away from you. You cannot be denied this. Be proud of it.‖ Colson: You can go to their house [referring Fortunately, being from the commu- to the Goldman Thibodeaux home]. nity that we‘re from, that has a lot to do with why we were able to maintain and preserve Clifton: I think a lot of people are in that our language. I‘m not a very young man any situation. When you start to talk with people. more. When I look around, there‘s no one . . . A lot of people have tried to learn the coming up that hill to follow up with the lan- language, and they learned parts of it, but guage. We‘re in intensive care right now. they don‘t maybe feel really comfortable or feel like they can really speak fluently. It is Question: My name is Dustin Fuqua. I’m harder, I think, when you‘re not living in a Creole from Avoyelles [Parish]. I work at the community where a lot of people speak it. National Park Service. I was raised around a One thing that I find that you might lot of the older people and the culture. I feel find helpful is if you can find at least one per- like I‘ve everything that they told me to do. I son in the area, generally it will be an older learned my animals in French -- [Inaudible] person who‘s willing to talk with you. Even rabbit, etc. I learned my numbers. I learned if you can get together with them for a few my alphabet. I cook a gravy. I cook as much minutes at a time or an hour a week, or some- wild game as I can. Every time we‘d go to thing like that, and just talk, just informally. the woods, that‘s my favorite thing to do. I You‘d be surprised, if you can do that regu- feel like I‘m caught in a place where I know a larly, you‘d be surprised how much that will lot of words, but as I was talking to Mr. help you. Another thing is if you. . . . It‘s Goldman and his wife earlier, I find I hesitate harder to do now because so many of the mu- when I want to talk to somebody. It‘s like I sicians, they don‘t sing in Creole or French know roughly what I need to say, but it does- anymore. If you buy some of those old-time n‘t come out right. My question is 1) Aside recordings, like, I don‘t know if you know from just being [Inaudible] and talking with Marc Savoy, who lives right outside of you guys, what‘s another angle to use that I Eunice? He has place, and he sells all these can go back and to make me do better with old recordings of different Cajun, Zydeco, all speech? Basically, what do you think? I Louisiana French music. If you get some of consider myself, more or less, an intermedi- those recordings and listen to them, and a lot ate or a novice. I know words, I know basi- of time they‘ll have the words and things cally. . . . Every time I try to talk to my written out, or they‘ll have the English trans- grandparents, I make them speak as much lation, and you just follow that. If you listen French as possible. I‘m up here at Cane River to that, it really does help if you listen really amongst folks like Tracey and her dad‘s gen- regular. If you‘re able to pick up some of the eration who are obviously on the same level radio programs that come on usually really as I am. I‘m not saying that I‘m any kind of early in the mornings, six, six-thirty in the fluent French speaker or anything, but it‘s morning, if you are able to pick up some of very hard to [Inaudible] Cane River than it is that on the radio or the TV, that‘s helpful. in Avoyelles or Opelousas, etc. We‘re in a I think a big part of it is letting people place where we can‘t talk to anybody. Once I know that you really do want to practice. Let go home, I make my grandparents speak with people know that you would prefer it if they me if I can make out things. Does anyone try to communicate with you in the language have any advice or anything y‘all can tell because in that way people know, people that

51 speak it, know that you really are trying to Theresa: That‘s a garden rake. learn. They‘ll talk with you. A lot of times, people are kind of shy. You think, ―Well, I Goldman: A garden rake. We were talking. won‘t talk the language here because it‘s all We were probably eight or nine of us, all an English speaking situation,‖ or whatever. grew up together, related. He left and went Then you meet somebody and you know that to Texas. From Texas he went to California. they are interested, so then you start trying to He came back. He was all dressed up. We talk with each other. Also, sometimes, were talking what we knew best, the way we you‘ve just got to talk to yourself. grew up. We could mix it up. We‘d talk a little bit in English; we‘d go back to Creole, Richmond: That‘s true. back and forth. He said, ―Would y‘all quit talking that junk. Talk something I can un- Clifton: You‘ve just got to go out. derstand.‖ We knew him; we grew up to- gether. [Inaudible] He‘s jiggling around. There was a garden rake propped. [He was] Goldman: Something else. Don‘t feel em- walking all over, jiggling. He stepped on it. barrassed if you think you. . . . Feel free if It brought him back to his roots. First thing you want to talk it. I don‘t care how many he said, first word he said, “You damn people are there. Don‘t let that stop you. rake.‖ [sacré râteau] It came back. It‘s a big Keep going. Really, this is what you really mistake. Me, Joe, Sherman, Theresa, when want. Learn this language; speak this lan- we go somewhere, we‘re not embarrassed. guage; don‘t feel embarrassed. I‘ve got some We love to talk it. We talk. When I come in of my relatives who grew up just like me. here, I‘m going to talk to. . . . This is my best Like I said, my momma couldn‘t speak Eng- language. I can talk well enough in English, lish at all until later in life with the grandchil- but if you want to go back with me, that‘s dren, but my daddy could speak both lan- where I‘m from. Don‘t feel ashamed or em- guages well. They left, and sometimes they barrassed. Keep doing it. would come here, and we are glad. For a wake somebody would come, you know, for a funeral. They don‘t want to hear that any Theresa: Even though it comes out kind of more. You see, don‘t feel that way. I don‘t crooked, Don‘t pay that any mind. Just keep care how much money you‘ve got, how much on. property you‘ve got. That‘s not it. That‘s not it. A lot of them left. They were fortunate. Goldman: Just keep going. It will get better. They got a little money; they got this; they got that. It went to their head. Always re- Theresa: Keep going, and you will get it like member what you want, what you want to it‘s supposed to go. accomplish. Just keep going. You are going to be alright. I remember one time, I guess Goldman: It will get better and better. some of y‘all heard me repeat this thing over and over. Theresa: Yep, yep. Just keep at it.

Cravins: The rake [le râteau]. Cravins: What I would say also on this, re- lax. Relax. You probably know all the Goldman: The rake. How many people know words. You‘re just not putting them together what that is? A rake? Mr. Pete knows. like you would like to. Just relax. By your

52 relaxing, it‘s going to work out much better water, his rows, that close to mine – not a for you. Also, different things happen. drop. How many times we broke out running, Whenever you get a chance, whenever you and before we got home, not a drop. We had get a chance, and you can think about it, have to go back again. People next door had their those conversations in French to yourself. crop. Grass was growing. They‘d come Talk to yourself in French. You can have work with us. those conversations in French with yourself. The only thing is, when you want to answer Theresa: They were neighbors. yourself, if you want to answer yourself, make sure it‘s in your tone of voice. Talk to Goldman: Neighbors. When their field. . . . . yourself in French. By doing so, you‘ll be Mine was all worked up and clean. We‘d go good to yourself, and you‘ll find that you can and return that work to them and put theirs, make those corrections in your own private hoe it and put it in order. That‘s what they setting. call a St. Medard, a forty-day rain.

Question: I‘ve studied French for several Richmond: What was the date? years, but I don‘t speak Creole. I‘m not fa- miliar with the colloquialisms that might be Cravins: June 8th. endangered of not existing because they haven‘t passed down. I think you mentioned Theresa: June 8th. one earlier, that “damn rake.‖ Do you have any more examples of phrases and colloquial- th isms that are unique to the Creole commu- Goldman: June 8 . nity? Basically, expressions that are unique to Louisiana in French? Cravins: We have not been seeing those in a number of years. Richmond: Tell them about St. Medard. th th Goldman: June 8 . The 8 of June [huit de Goldman: St. Medard? Oh yeah, that‘s the Juin]. forty-day rain. Cravins: We used to see those religiously Theresa: That‘s the forty-day rain. every year. I remember as a child.

th Goldman: Forty-day rain. Forty-day rain. I Theresa: But no matter where, June 8 , can tell you. I can school all of y‘all on forty somewhere we‘ll have that rain. -day rain. Forty-day rain, we were farming. I‘d work out, and we‘d do farming and this Cravins: We have not been seeing it. and that. It took all that to make a living. Forty-day or St. Medard rain, it rained forty Goldman: One man told me, he said, he told days. Me and Sherman could be living next that to my daddy. He said, ―Way back, it was door. His farm could be right here; mine common.‖ But now, we don‘t get it as often. could be right here, that close apart. The He said, ―All the crop, they had lost. The same time every day, you could hear a big, grass had taken all that and everything.‖ big, big shower coming down. You could They had house dances, so they decided, ―We hear it. His field is going to be flooded with aren‘t going to make a crop. It‘s just as well

53 as we go and enjoy a dance.‖ Every night, Smith: Even if I‘m wrong, I‘m learning. this is the truth. They had house dances. You‘re right. You learn to be comfortable. They were walking. They‘d roll, they‘d take I‘m learning to stand up in front of crowds shoes off and tied the last and put them in and say what little I know. It may not be there. They had a big towel on the shoulder. proper. It‘s broken, but at least I‘m trying. Roll up their pants to the knee. They‘d get You‘re right. I am going to visit this older there, and they‘d dry their feet, put the shoes, Choctaw elder. Just me and him talking an and go and dance, dance every night. He said hour a day, I‘m going to learn those little that was all they could do. They had nothing. bitty [Inaudible] The things that I don‘t know It rained every day. This is the fool. You and put my sentences together. know the one I‘m talking about, Lee Du- ruseau. Goldman: And the few words you know, you keep repeating them, just like if you want to Richmond: So St. Medard is the saint from study for a song or whatever. France. If it rains on his feast day, June 8th, then it rains forty days. That‘s something Smith: You‘re right. I‘ll keep talking to my- that he said one time, and I had no idea what self. he was talking about. You were asking for little things. Goldman: Repeat them. They‘ll get better and better. Question: Yes, particularly colloquialisms and phrases. Smith: I‘ve been asked to say things at a me- morial. I have been asked to say things at a Richmond: Helping hand? A helping hand. council meeting. I‘ve been asked to say things at weddings. I just go in there, and I Dustin: You weren‘t here this morning, but know what I‘m saying when I say, Cheryl, I think you said something about lan- [Inaudible] I‘m talking about the Great Spirit. guage? It‘s not right, probably, but from my heart, I know I‘m saying a few things that I want to Richmond: The only wrong thing. Tell us say. It‘s just broken up. It‘s not right, but what the only wrong thing is. after a while, Dusty, you‘ll get comfortable with it. It will roll, and it will flow. Just Cheryl Smith: What you said is exactly what keep on because that‘s what I‘m doing. I‘m going through. The question you asked is exactly how I feel. I know all the words. I Theresa: When I was coming up, my mom can understand what people are saying, but I and dad never spoke to us in Creole. They‘d feel uncomfortable saying the Choctaw lan- speak it between them. Then I would go to guage. my grandmother‘s house. She could speak Creole and English. Me and her would talk. Theresa: You shouldn‘t. You shouldn‘t be. That was the only grandmother I had. Since I was the second oldest granddaughter, I was the oldest granddaughter that was close to Smith: But I‘ve learned that the only wrong her. We lived close. Every day, I had to go. way to speak Choctaw is not to speak it at all. People didn‘t have telephones or nothing. Cravins: That‘s right. They were up in age. They had the fence.

54 She‘d put a white rag on that fence. I know that we speak, we speak the Louisiana when I‘d see that rag on that fence, I needed French. We speak the Louisiana French. If to go check on her. So that‘s how I‘d go. we leave Mallet, for example, Mallet, Eunice, Opelousas, Church Point, or Evangeline Par- Smith: I wanted to ask, you on the end espe- ish, St. Landry, Evangeline Parish, I would cially. In Jena, we have a celebration called say with the exception of the southeast St. Howdy Neighbor Day every year. We usu- Landry Parish. Southeast St. Landry Parish ally bring in entertainment. This year I wasn‘t going into . . . . there when they picked. They picked Wayne Toups. They said he‘s the Zydeco, I don‘t Citizen: Arnaudville. know. I‘ve never heard Wayne Toups. Cravins: Going south. They speak Creole. Citizen: They call him Zydeco-Cajun. They speak Creole. It‘s a different dialect. Why they speak Creole? Because they come Theresa: ZydeCajun. It‘s a Cajun dance. from. . . . The Creole language that‘s spoken in the part of Louisiana that I know of comes Richmond: He‘s good at what he does. He from the Dominican, comes from Haiti. We does not do what they do, but he‘s still good do not, that‘s not our language. Our language at what he does. Can you hold that for one is the Louisiana French language. I commu- second because we had a question? They‘ll nicate very extensively with my Cajun show you what they do. neighbors. We have absolute, total French conversations. We speak the identical lan- Smith: I‘d love to see what you do. guage. The identical language. If we move, if we move into the area that I was telling you about, then we‘ll find a difference. It goes, Citizen: That‘s not La La, and that‘s not Cre- “I go and I come” [couri veni]. ole. That‘s Zydeco-Cajun.

Colson: You are talking about the Slidell Theresa: He has some CDs. area?

Cravins: The lady in the back has been hav- Cravins: They may very well. I‘m not famil- ing a question for some time. iar with the Slidell area. Now, if we go into

Evangeline Parish, you have a more refined Question: This is for anybody on the panel. French. I have some friends that grew up in I just teach certification. I heard ___ say that Evangeline Parish. They have some words, they have issues speaking French. I know they throw me for a loop. They use them there are tools and resources for us to learn very, very fluently. I understand in French. Could someone explain how did Avoyelles Parish, I think it is a little bit more Creole language come about? Did it come refined. Yes, sir? about because of the French language, or is it intertwined with the French language? Does Comment: I‘m from Avoyelles Parish, and that make sense? it‘s the same French y‘all speak. They‘ve got

different term, like we call a store a store. Cravins: What we speak, the language that [magasin] Y‘all call that a store [boutique]? we speak. . . The term Creole is used very, very frequent in our language. The language

55 Richmond: Store [boutique]. Comment: Old [Inaudible] told me, in the old days, you married some girl in walking Cravins: Store. [boutique] distance. There was no transportation to go further. Comment: Differences, but the same. Cravins: That‘s exactly right. Cravins: The same language. That‘s right. Now, I believe around in Evangeline Parish, Comment: [Inaudible] the neighborhood. Gold, they refer to a lot of the stores as a store [magasin] Cravins: If you walked too late at night, maybe the foxfire [feu foulet] would get you. Goldman: Store [magasin]. Goldman: People would spend more time Comment: Some people call that a barn. together. Life was much simpler than what it is today. People, I‘m talking about where I Cravins: We call a barn [magazsn], a barn, grew up, I‘m not going to condemn anybody for us. Whether it‘s the Creole or Anglo, it‘s else. People would, life was so simple, still that very same, we use the very, very they‘d come in the morning and spend the same terminology. whole day. In a wagon or a buggy, walking, horseback. The afternoon, they‘d leave. Comment: Words differ and others Now, looks like everything changed. [Inaudible]. I realize things can‘t continue, which I‘m happy. Now, the question that we need to address for our grandchildren and great- Cravins: That is absolutely correct. grandchildren is to keep this alive, where

we‘re from, how it was, and let them know Comment: You can still have the same thing. all [about] where we‘re from. If we don‘t do that, they‘ll never know the life of the day, Cravins: That‘s right. Yeah. which I‘m happy for them. Talk to your children and grandchil- Comment: I understand now. It‘s kind of dren Creole. Talk to them. Don‘t be afraid; like Spanish. You have Latinos that tend, don‘t be ashamed. One day they are going to some of the words slide together. Like even thank you for that. A lot of people say. . . . Japanese, Chinese, there are many Talk Creole to you children. Talk French, [Inaudible] and dialects. Creole, whatever you want to call it, to your children, great-grandchildren. One day, Cravins: It‘s kind of like a regional thing. you‘ll be happy. I‘m an old man. I talk to When our ancestors were, those areas, people mine. I talk to young people all the time Cre- weren‘t travelled that well. They had a ten- ole, French, whatever they want to talk. I dency to live in those communities, and prefer better talking to them in Creole and probably married in this community or the French, whatever they want because that neighboring community. It was pretty well, way, to me, I‘m doing something for my dad, those cultures were pretty well isolated. momma, grandpa, grandma, they are dead Someone else may have some other input on and gone years ago. We need to work on this that. This is the way I read it. and talk to your children. You‘ve got two sons, two fine young sons. Creole. 56 Theresa: Repeat what you said in French. playing. Next a Creole band. They said they were outside, but they knew the difference. I Goldman: Talk to them as much as you can, asked how you could tell the difference. Cre- what you know in Creole. Repeat that to ole music has got a little touch, not a heavy them. Speak Creole, what you know, to your thing, a little, little touch of bluesy. two small sons. They are going to keep go- ing. They are going to meet somebody else, Theresa: Now put that in Creole. their little friend. They are going to pass it to somebody else. That‘s what it‘s all about. If Goldman: Cajun music and Creole music, the you kids can pick up on just a few words, only difference there is, Cajun music, they some words, to your children, they are going play a little faster. Creole music is a little to meet other children at school. They are slower, and you can tell it has a little grain of going to speak their few words, the others blues in it. The other is Cajun. will pick them up. It will continue. It will continue. But if you don’t speak to your chil- Clifton: For example, like Iry LeJeune. You dren in Creole, how will they know when they know him? are around other kids, when they come to his house, or are at school all together, he does- Goldman: Iry and Amedee Ardoin. n’t know words to say anything? He will stay at the same point. He will never learn more than he knows. Clifton: Iry, he doesn’t have a little bit of blues. Iry LeJeune, he doesn’t have a little bit of blues. Smith: After I learn Choctaw, I‘m going to come see you to start to learn Cajun – Creole! Goldman: Amedee Ardoin was a good musi- cian, very good musician. He died young. Goldman: There‘s something about Creole When he began to play the accordion, he first and Cajun. You see, Cajun and Creole, no played the violin. He told his father. He told matter how you look at it, it comes to the his daddy he had started on the fiddle. Then same thing. I had one time thought they were he wanted the accordion. He went to the ac- first cousins. It‘s closer than first cousins. cordion. He said, ―I. . . . ― You take Cajun music. Let‘s say you are go- ing to play a waltz. You‘re going to play the ―Love Bridge Waltz.‖ You are going to play Theresa: That was Iry that said that. Not the ―Eunice Two-Step‖ the way he plays it. Amedee. A Creole will come; he‘s going to play it the same way. He‘s going to repeat the same Goldman: Iry. He said that to his father. He words. said, “If I could take up. . . .” He The only difference in Creole and Ca- said,―You‘ve got a fiddle.‖ ―You’ve got a jun music, Cajuns play their music a little bit fiddle.” He said, “Yes, but I’d like to play faster. Creole plays a little slower, but it‘s got the accordion. I’d like to read music. I would a little touch, a little touch of bluesy. In the like to be [Inaudible].‖ He said, “I’ll buy an Creole, a little touch of bluesy. How I learned accordion.” Iry. Iry was almost [Inaudible]. that [was] from my old relatives, the Carri- He was born like that. He said, “If I take it eres – Bébé Carriere and all of them. I say, up, and if I learn to play, there would one ―How do y‘all know that?‖ Way back at the musician that I would like to play my music house dances, they had a Cajun band that was as close as I can.” I want to play my music 57 as close. They had a [Inaudible] after Iry lost Comment: I just mean something for people his life. A one-hour program on KSLO in who don‘t speak French to pick up the phra- Opelousas. You remember that? I‘ll never seology as well as the different way of life. forget. He said, “If I can . . . . “ ―If I can learn, I want to play my music as close as I Theresa: When they sing what they say. can to that musician.‖ He said, ―Who are you talking about?‖ He said, ―Amedee Ar- Goldman: A lot of them, just like Joe said, doin.‖ [He] feels his music with Amedee. He how can you call yourself a Creole musician did it. The only thing, he was a Cajun. You or a Cajun musician if you are going to play could feel it was a little different. Amedee the song, and you don‘t know what the words had that little touch of bluesy. He was the are mean? You might sing the word, but you closest of the players to Amedee Ardoin. I don‘t have any idea of what you‘re saying. talked to a young musician a while back. He Somebody can come up to the bandstand and said he had problems to understand about Iry say, ―What those word you repeat? What‘s LeJeune and Amedee. He was learning the that word?‖ He doesn‘t know what he said. accordion, the accordion. He said it came to You‘ve got to . . . . You‘d better be a Cajun, him, that little touch of bluesy, what the Cre- or you‘ve got to be a Creole. What are some ole‘s got, [compared] to the Cajun. of them, they can‘t even sing. What are they going to, ―Hey you” [Et toi]. What does that Richmond: OK. You had a question? mean? He doesn‘t know the meaning himself. If somebody comes up and say, ―Well look. Question: What I was going to ask was just You just played that song. You just played about the same thing. There are people here your. . . . What do those words mean?‖ He who aren‘t exposed everyday or outside this doesn‘t even know what he was saying. He region to Creole French. I think the music can‘t repeat those words. He doesn‘t know reveals so much about the moral compass, himself, so how can he call himself a Cajun just the way of life as well as the phraseol- musician or a Creole musician. He can‘t. ogy. I think you guys have done a lot about No. this. Can you tell what other recordings, things that go back to and listen to and hear Theresa: No. Everybody don‘t leave because like Amedee would have an original Creole they will play y‘all some music in a little bit. recording? What other ones can they go to to Y‘all understand, it‘s not the full band. They hear La La music? are only three members of the band.

Richmond: Beside Mr. Joe and beside Mr. Goldman: Yeah. You see that guy sitting on Goldman, who else can they listen to of the the end over there? He ain‘t got much to say. old musicians that really played Creole music Y‘all will find out what he‘s all about in a and sing in Creole? Who else could they lis- little while. This lady right here, we‘ve been ten to? playing together. A lot of people say, ―Well, you‘re the boss, you‘re the owner.‖ No. I Colson: What songs? What songs Mr. Gold- say, ―We work together on this thing.‖ How man? The songs that everybody sings? That many times do y‘all hear me repeating this? I all those young people try to sing, and they say, ―I‘m not this, and I‘m not that.‖ With don‘t know what they‘re saying? some band members, ―Oh, he‘s the king of the hill.‖ You rule everything. He controls

58 people who work for him. That‘s why they Colson: It‘s all in English, too. don‘t stay together. If we make a mistake, we keep going. I some of them break up, Cravins: It‘s all in English. Usually, what they want to fight, or they don‘t play together they‘re doing, they‘re shouting something. I any more. OK. We get up there. Everybody don‘t get offended by the Zydeco music be- pull his load, do his share. This is what it‘s cause I feel that it‘s their music and do what- all about. That‘s the best way. ever the heck you want to do with it. That‘s your thing. Now, don‘t look at me and say, Cravins: Mr. Gold? You know I was think- ―Hey, that‘s your music.‖ No, it‘s not. I know ing about something when you were talking who I am. I‘m not going to walk on your ter- about music. There‘s one, one young enter- ritory. Don‘t walk on mine. This is theirs; this tainer that, and I believe he has his band is mine. I‘m a firm believer, in order to know named, I think it appropriate, Geno Delafose. where you‘re going, you‘d better know where Geno Delafose calls his band Geno Delafose you came from. Geno Delafose is the person and the French Rocking Boogie. Right. that I know, and I think he has it properly named. He does his music in French. [Words of agreement] Richmond: How many of you are ready to Cravins: It makes sense. He is the closest hear some of that music? Are we ready? thing that I know of, of any of those younger We‘ll take a quick break, and they‘ll get set people that are playing music with some up. We‘ll be ready. I want to thank all of you French flavor. He speaks the language, and for being here, and I want to thank all of you he can sing the music. The Zydeco music here on the panel. that you are hearing, this is just something that something, that somebody [Inaudible]. It Goldman & Theresa: Thank y‘all for com- has nothing, nothing to do with the Creole ing, and thank y‘all for having us. heritage whatsoever. I‘m going to warn you, they‘re not saying anything about the Creole heritage because they know nothing about it.

59 Creole La La Music

Goldman Thibodeaux and Joe Citizen

L-R: Joe Citizen, Goldman Thibodeaux, and Courtney Fuller

Creole Music in the Delta

The Creole music, La La music, echoed from house dances to church dances to the dance halls at the cross-roads corners. French vocals covered waltzes, ballads, and even lullabies to the ba- bies. Bands were formed in families, in neighborhoods and, by the 1930s at least, had begun to gain recognition and travel. Cajuns next door, in southwest Louisiana, and Creoles joined forces at dances, and the music there, like the language, came to fit well together. In other areas Cajun dominated, but on the plantations, Creole music and language absorbed a more ―bluesy‖ tone from the African Americans. Sometimes the syncopation came from couri vini, the deep Creole dialect. Eventually, these sounds ―creolize‖ into the Zydeco, the Creole sound most popular with the younger folks today – its circum-Caribbean ―drive‖ marking it clearly as something apart.

Goldman Thibodeaux and Joe Citizen are recognized all across Creole communities in Louisi- ana as the best, most traditional, La La musicians. The frotoir and the accordion cover nearly all the Creole sound. With Courtney Fuller on guitar, this informance covered the music and answered questions about continuity and change in the Creole portions of the Delta Region.

60 SESSION III

61 62 Session III – Blues Along the River: Natchez to Ninth Ward

Moderators: Dr. Pete Gregory, Dr. Joyce Jackson Participants: Curtis Desselles, Hezekiah Early, Hardrick Rivers, Rolonda Teal, Robert Watson

Dr. Pete Gregory: I organ- ized this symposium, Dr. Rasmussen and I, on the way back from Hezekiah Early‘s house in Natchez, Mississippi. We had a long conversation over there with L-R: Dr. Joyce Jackson, Rolonda Teal, Dr. Pete Gregory, Hezekiah Early, Robert Hezekiah about changes in Watson, Hardrick Rivers, and Curtis Deselles. the blues scene around Natchez and Ferriday, and down in the Delta. tion Technology and Training]. He‘s been On the way home, I began to think, this is working on a project with the Breda Town true of a lot of people in the Delta. Yesterday Cemetery Association for about three years. we had a panel on American Indian cultures Together with the Cemetery Association, he‘s in the Delta and one on Creole culture in the working on a book on the history of the Delta. Today, we‘re going to do something Breda Town Cemetery here in town. I‘m go- very similar and start with an African Ameri- ing to let him tell you about how that project can panel. This afternoon, we‘ll do an Anglo developed and what they‘re doing with their -Cajun, basically what I call ―swamp and hill community. I thought we might start off with folks,‖ panel to talk about the edges of the Dr. Jackson because she‘s from further south. Delta and the back country. Like I told some We‘ll just kind of work our way up the river of you yesterday, the river ties all these peo- and then jump to the Sabine with Ro. Ro- ple together, both historically and culturally londa‘s right on the edge of the Delta here. and all the interchanges between these peo- I‘m pushing it, but I think she fits, the com- ple, I think you began to see yesterday. This munity fits. Dr. Jackson, would you like to is a very complicated place. start? I thought we‘d start this panel since we‘re all here. Dr. Joyce Jackson from LSU- Dr. Joyce Jackson: Good morning. I would Baton Rouge, Ms. Rolonda Teal who‘s a pri- like to thank Pete for inviting me up. It‘s vate contractor/ethnologist, Hezekiah Early been a while since I‘ve been up to North and my friend Poochie, bluesmen from Louisiana. [Inaudible] Thank you very much Natchez, amongst other things. Hezekiah is for inviting me on this occasion of the Delta also, he‘s also a model builder. He‘s a car- Symposium. I want to just share with you penter. Hardrick Rivers who‘s our home briefly some of the work I‘ve been doing in boy, he‘s from here with us. He‘s also a mu- New Orleans in the Lower Ninth Ward. This sician. Many of you know Hardrick. He‘s work was started before Katrina. We‘ll look also a teacher, teaches in public school. Cur- at communities, and Louisiana is really noted tis Desselles way down on the end, he works for very strong communities, people just kind at NCPTT, the National Center [for Preserva- of staying around, not leaving, and staying

63 sometimes in the same places for various connections, part of their livelihood. Some of generations – four, five or six generations. them were really having problems. This is one community that I wanted to bring [Inaudible] It may take some of them years to to your attention today. It‘s called the get back. Some of them are trying to come Fazendeville Community. Actually, it started back in St. Bernard Parish in 1867. This commu- I have some figures on this. Four nity was sort of populated by people coming hundred fifty-five moved or grew up in Or- in after Americans, coming off the planta- leans Parish prior to, prior to Katrina. After- tions on the River Road. It was started, well wards, it‘s about 360, so about two/thirds they built the church in about 1867. Unfortu- have moved back. nately, the community was moved in 1964 Looking at this community again, the because the Park Service wanted to expand Fazendeville Community. This is to show the Park. This community was built on the you where it was located in St. Bernard Par- land where they fought the Battle of New Or- ish. This is the river on the right side at the leans. It was there for almost a hundred bottom, the Mississippi River. This is the years. Because of various reasons, and not Chalmette Monument. This is the Chalmette just because of the expansion of the Park, Monument right here. The Mississippi River. they razed the houses and moved the commu- This area here was the Fazendeville commu- nity. Actually, the community moved them- nity. Over here is the military cemetery, the selves into, basically, Lower Ninth Ward National Cemetery. Further to your right at right across a line, the parish line, from St. the top is going into the Kaiser plant. This Bernard to Orleans Parish. was a pecan grove right here. This is the I‘m going to tell you just a bit about Miller‘s House, a historic home. This photo- them, and then I‘m going to go into just for a graph was taken in the early sixties before the few minutes, a wider look at the Ninth Ward homes were razed. now, post-Katrina and its cultural traditions, My research portion was how musical traditions that are there, and what has [Inaudible] the problem area were affected, in changed about them, what has happened to turn the problems with rebuilding of the them. Fazendeville community after Katrina. The The cultural network is more likely to community was resilient in 1964, ‘65, they determine whether these people will stay in were really fighting. It wasn‘t an easy move the Ninth Ward post-Katrina. It is determined out of the area. They fought and brought in by, I see it as, their connection with the cul- attorneys, but they were fighting the Federal ture and the community, of course with government. Then you have the coastal ero- neighbors, with their family, with the com- sion [Inaudible] and modern day trauma. munity, but also very strongly connected with [Inaudible] factors that were affecting their cultures and folk traditions in that commu- return. nity. If they have not been connected, then There were several data collection maybe they will stay, but they have problems phases. The first phase I collected interviews in their diaspora community. If they don‘t from the elders in the late sixties. The oldest have the camaraderie, I‘ve talked to a lot of was ninety-two. The oldest person I col- people who were having problems in these lected interviews from, she was ninety-two diaspora communities where they‘ve moved years old. That was the first phase. to because they don‘t have these traditions In the second phase, I did the middle- there. That was not things that you did one or age children of the elders. After Katrina, of two times a year, but it was part of their life course, I had to find out where everybody

64 was and how they were faring post-Katrina. They figure, if they rebuild it, they will come. The third phase was collecting dis- I‘m kind of watching that now to see what‘s placed residents issues from down around happened to the rebuilding of the church and Baton Rouge, Lafayette, Los Angeles, Hous- see how the people are still coming back. ton, Mobile – the cities where they were. Some are really commuting from Lafayette As you can see, before Katrina, this is and various places that are close around. the area where they moved into the Lower They are having their church services in an- Ninth Ward. The Chalmette area, this is the other church that is offering them their space Chalmette area. This is the Fazendeville until they get their church built. It‘s interest- community right here. That yellow spot is a ing to follow the path of all of this as it historic site. The green spot, you can see evolves. where people moved. Some are on the other Now looking at the traditions, because side of the St. Bernard highway. Most of I think, again, that‘s definitely the reasons them crossed over to Orleans Parish. Each why people are coming back. Some of my little green spot is a house that I collected in- students ask me, ―Why do they want to go formation from. The red spot is the Battle- back to the Ninth Ward and all this devasta- ground Baptist Church sort of like the core of tion? It just happened two years later, a year the community. The church actually moved later.‖ I said, ―You know, it‘s all about com- first in 1964. Most of the people moved then, munity and traditions.‖ Family too, of course. two or three or four miles, in a radius around It‘s interesting to see the students and how the church. You see they sort of just fol- they changed after they go down and actually lowed the church to the Ninth Ward. You work in the area. Toward the end of the se- some others [Inaudible] out there, but of them mester, they will call me and say, ―Oh, now, I are right there in the Ninth Ward. Looking at see. After I‘ve talked to them and inter- this community now, we find that the first viewed them.‖ The people, after they work in thing, I call it declarations of [Inaudible] the museum down there, after they work in which is what the Federal government called the school, with the community center, or it. The first thing they razed the homes in some of the organizing and the activist in the 1964. area. So they understand why the residents Right in 1965 when many of them want to come back. moved into the Ninth Ward, following the Now looking at some of the tradi- church, that‘s when Hurricane Betsy came. tions, let‘s look at that for a moment, and There were huge floods. Some of them were then I will close. I see the main catalyst of out of their homes, but only for about four to community renewal are the following: six months. Of course, forty years later, Hur- Let‘s talk about commonalities. It ricane Katrina happened. Of course, you takes a village, schools and businesses. One know what happened in 2005, some of the of the commonalities would be the neighbor- people were out of their homes, and some of hood. It‘s the families, traditions. traditional- them are still not back. What is happening to ity is Music, Dance, and Feathers I call it that community now is that they are trying to because that is what the museum is called in rebuild the church. It‘s not the people that are the Ninth Ward. I looked at musical families, living in Baton Rouge, Lafayette. Some of of music dance, and second line clubs, the them have bought homes in Baton Rouge and Feathers, Mardi Gras Indians. These are some Lafayette and other areas. Maybe about of the three main traditions that are there. Of twelve moved back to the Lower Ninth Ward, course, we all know the various bands, brass and they are trying to get the church rebuilt. bands, etc., that are in the Ninth Ward. You

65 find that these are the most prominent tradi- Austin, Texas. He said, ―This is what I do to tions that are there. kind of keep it going and letting other people Looking at musical families, you have know what I do. I look kind of strange walk- [Inaudible] families Kermit Ruffin, which ing around with Mardi Gras, [Inaudible] you‘ve probably heard of, one of the most crazy man or what.‖ He‘s trying to teach popular R&B musicians there. He was raised people in the community what it is he does in the Ninth Ward. Ray Langford, Barbery and why it is so important to him. So he has Singers, founder of the Highland Brass Band. his little following in the community that It goes on and on and on. Fats Domino, he‘s come to the community center. He has his a resident of the Ninth Ward. Although he little workshop on beading and stuff. became famous, he never left. His house is I had another person that I worked sitting right there and got mud like everybody with [Inaudible] bead. She evacuated to At- else. Right on [Inaudible] Street in the lanta. She said she would sit on the porch Lower Ninth Ward, never left the community and work on her suit. She said, ―If I don‘t get with Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, the whole back to New Orleans, those people in Atlanta bit. He‘s not there right now because his are going to see me walking down this street health has failed. He‘s living across the river. on Mardi Gras day. That‘s all I know. I‘ve Then of course we have various Mardi Gras been doing it for over fifty years.‖ She did Indian tribes out there. Some of them are make it back. She‘s even given her children back; some of them are not. Some of them Indian names. That‘s how serious she is won‘t be able to come back because they about the tradition. That‘s Ms. Rita Jones, don‘t have anywhere to go if they come back. and she‘s been a queen; she‘s been doing it With them you have sort of an identity prob- for over fifty years. You see how important lem, too. I‘ve talked to, interviewed some these traditions are and why the people are that are in Houston, Austin, and this one guy really wanting to come back. I have just a is member of the tribe Golden [Inaudible]. few quotes I want to say now in close. He‘s still the chief of his tribe, but he says Henry Butler is an R&B performer. there is very little [Inaudible] because he‘s Some of y‘all may have heard of him. He not there with them when they‘re making was first evacuated to Monroe. Now he is in their suits. They‘ll come over from Houston Colorado. He‘s living in Colorado. He said, for a weekend, so he might come too. He‘s ―There are some things that have to happen working two jobs in Houston to take care of that will allow the music to help rebuild the his wife. It‘s very difficult to keep his tradi- city. The city, as good as music has been tion going. It gives him his self-identity. He over the last century, doesn‘t treat its musi- said, ―I don‘t know who I am if I‘m not cians well. Better distribution of the money is working with the Indians.‖ He was important; necessary. Some of the musicians are not go- he‘s been in it since he was six years old. It‘s ing to go back. There are cities giving a big like all he knows outside of his going to work push to entice New Orleans musicians to and back or working with his family. His stay, like Austin that have good economics tradition is the rest of his life. He‘s trying to and don‘t mind sharing some of the benefits keep it going. He‘s trying to keep it going as to people who are contributing to the spirit of much as he can. He‘ll call me every now and the city. [Inaudible] We may actually wind then to let me know what‘s going on: ―We up there.‖ He was talking about Austin and did this. Some of the gang came over.‖ This how Austin really embraces Louisiana musi- other guy in Austin is actually teaching the cians. tradition to people in the community center in Another thing that is actually happen-

66 ing, I was just discussing with Pete, is that a on the front page a musician has passed. lot, right after Katrina, a lot of the musicians With these passings, Willie T was a com- were invited to Europe. I called Charmaine poser, R&B, really famous jazz musician. He Neville and Irma Thomas to try to give them fears that, ―a re-built New Orleans come in booked on a program in Baton Rouge. We for gentrification. That undermines the cul- were doing a music conference at LSU, Lou- tures of authenticity. You can erect a lot real isiana [Inaudible] Conference. I was trying pretty ground, cultural museum, and every- to get them to come and speak at the confer- thing, and maybe that area is cleaning up. ence. When I called Irma, she said, ―New Not a lot of people who were the posts of the York airport heading to London.‖ When I community will come back.‖ Basically, he called Charmaine, she was still in New Or- was referring to the public housing that has leans, but the next day she was heading to been razed. Since Katrina, a lot of the public Italy. They were moving out. Many Euro- housing has been torn down. He was saying pean countries are really embracing them. If that a lot of this came up in the areas where they knew, they could probably get a whole the public housing buildings were. lot more people. They were really travelling On a lighter side to tell you a couple quite a bit to European countries. I really of things that are really happening is Musi- saw a lot of that happening with musicians. I cians Village in New Orleans in the Lower had talked to [Inaudible]. I finally got her to Ninth Ward, it‘s in the Upper Ninth Ward. come and be on a symposium. She was actu- They are homes that they have built for musi- ally in Europe when Katrina happened. She cians. They don‘t just give it to them. They was able to give her story trying to get back have to pay for them, but they tailored a pro- home to see about her family when she gram where they will sort of help them to couldn‘t get through to them and everything. manage their money and get low interest, She said that since then, I kind of keep up small loans, and get them into a home. They with her, she‘s been going back and forth on also are building a community center there, a regular basis to Europe, saying people are the Ellis Marsalis Community Center. They really embracing New Orleans musicians. are going to give lessons, music lessons to A lot of them have returned. The mu- kids like after school and have some bands sicians union had about 800 members prior to there. This program still for music though, Katrina. It‘s back now. They‘ve still got trying to keep it going. That‘s one thing. about 200 to 300 somewhere in there. They This is done by Harry Connick and Branford have not come back home. They‘re still try- Marsalis. This is the village consisting of ing to get there. In spite of the diaspora seventy single family homes. It‘s not just many people have been able to come back to musicians. Other artists are beginning to get New Orleans to visit and for performances a into those homes. stuff, that connection to the city. Many of The other thing I have to mention is them are still living outside of the city. La- that House of Dance and Feathers Museum, fayette, Baton Rouge, Houston, are evolving that‘s where I got my title from. It‘s run by as a result of the immigration of musicians Ronald Lewis. He was supposed to be here from the hurricane impacted communities. today, but he had some health problems. He I want give a little quote from Willie couldn‘t come. That museum is very, very T., Willie T. Perkinson got this quote, really important to the Lower Ninth Ward. It was this guy at the Louisiana Weekly newspaper, destroyed in Katrina. Some architects from which is a black newspaper in New Orleans. another university, I think it was the Univer- Every other week, or at least once a month, sity of Arkansas, helped them to rebuild. This

67 architect brought the students in. They‘d that we are on music a little bit, I may shift spend weeks there and helped to rebuild the over to Hezekiah. Hezekiah and I had this museum. The museum is an archive. It had conversation about changing blues scenes in all sorts of artifacts from second line parade Natchez, Mississippi. I‘d like to ask him a paraphernalia, Mardi Gras Indian suits and question about that. How does that affect patches and articles. He has prior to Katrina getting young people interested in blues? a whole series of newspapers and articles way back from the fifties, sixties. Anything Hezekiah Early: Young people. . . . The fes- that is culturally important to the Ninth Ward, tivals, the festivals help a whole lot because he has newspaper articles in there. One thing that is mostly the only time they hear the my students have help them to cap off things blues is during that blues festival. The regu- and say who has donated things. It was a lar time, they don‘t hear too much blues. very, very important organization there. He You listen to the radio, every now and then, was kind of like a one-man show. He‘s the they may have a little blues show, but they director, the curator, the installer, everything. don‘t play very much blues. You might have It is very, very important for that community one DJ come on, and he might have an hour to have that museum there. People really of blues. We have a couple of guys in support it. You have buses coming through, Natchez that bring it on pretty good. The rest these tour busses. He doesn‘t seem to mind. of them don‘t play the blues. The young peo- Tour busses contract to come to your place. ple have just gotten away from the blues. He doesn‘t do any of that. He‘s really an in- When all this other music came out, they just dependent person. He wants to be his own didn‘t hear the blues much. Therefore, that‘s person. He doesn‘t go along with some of pretty much all they know. During the time these other propositions that they‘re getting of the festivals, they go to the festivals, and in the Ninth Ward. they hear the blues. There are just a few To share that with you, I have a few around Natchez interested in the blues – not a pictures here – brass bands, second line whole lot. The ones that get off into music, clubs, Mardi Gras Indians. This is the Battle- they don‘t really come into the blues. They ground Baptist Church, on Flood Street. This are into the other music. is right before Katrina. That was actually I had been thinking about trying to get taken in 2005 right before Katrina. They are one of the old field bands back together. trying to get it back up now. That is the core When I was coming up, they used to have of the enclave of Fazendeville. What I said picnics out in pastures. Had a bass, two or about it is the people from that village, they three snares, fifes, somebody blowing the call it a village, is sort of what happened with fifes. That‘s when I came into learning how a lot of new communities in the Ninth Ward. to drum. I learned on the old field drum. In That‘s why I kind of use it as my core since I later years after that, I learned how to play was working there before Katrina, working harmonica. Two older guys picked me up, with this community. Now after Katrina, I and they would have me crashing with them look at the broader Ninth Ward culture. I‘m at night, sitting up until 11:00 or 12:00 at just going to end. Maybe we‘ll hold ques- night. We were the only farm. That started tions at the end of the session? I‘m not sure? going pretty good. From that they started to take me out to little parties and things with Gregory: We‘ve done it both ways. How do them. They would ask my mother and my you guys feel about questions now or at the father to let me go with them. They were go- end? Maybe we can wait until the end. Now ing to take care of me, which they did. I had

68 gotten away from the drums. Eventually, all been about, I don‘t know what year, back in we had right then were two guitars and the the late seventies when this happened. Ever harmonica. We eventually came up with an since then, until now, I‘ve been blowing har- old set of drums. With me knowing how to monica, playing drums, all at the same time. play drums, I got on the drums and let the Whenever we get around younger harmonica alone. That went good for a good people that know much about blues, they many years. I got off into, wasn‘t making would be wondering, ―How do you play much money so I decided I would organize drums and blow harmonica all at the same. . . my own band and try to make a little more . How can you concentrate on it all the time?‖ money, which I did. That went on for a good I said, ―I just like what I‘m doing. I like to many years. play the blues, and I like the harmonica, and I Muhammed Ali came into Natchez to like drums. I just stayed with it. That‘s what make a film. The name of that film was you‘ve got to do if you want to be a musician Freedom Road. They had gone through 2-300 and make anything out of it. You‘ve got to people trying to find somebody to blow har- get with it and stay with it.‖ We have a lot of monica. Finally the news got around to me, youngsters. . . . They start out and get pretty and I said, ―Why hadn‘t they found me?‖ He good. The next thing you know, they just get said, ―They‘re looking for somebody. We away from it. Stay out. didn‘t know you were still in town.‖ They got Right now I just wonder if we will be me; they sent me over to Mr. Eastman Music able to keep the blues alive. I think by having Company in Vidalia for him to check me out. the festivals, and festivals are getting pretty I went over there. He gave me a new one out rare now. By them hearing the blues. . . . of the showcase. I played one number. He Two Saturday nights ago, he and I, me and said, ―Man, you are the man we‘ve been Lil‘ Poochie, my son got us to come to Clin- looking for.‖ They wrote me up there. That ton, right outside of Jackson, to play at a sur- Friday night we had to record that stuff. That prise birthday party for his wife. We got in Saturday, we went where Ali was to shoot the there that Saturday night. They said, ―We‘re film. All we had to do was just sit back and going to have a DJ. Y‘all just play a few motion like we were playing. They already numbers every once in a while. Y‘all quit and had it recorded. Muhammed Ali told me, he sit back and relax. We played first. Things asked me how long had I been playing har- were going so good; they didn‘t want to hear monica. I said, ―Well, I learned how to play the DJ. We quit and let the DJ come in. We harmonica when I was a kid coming up, but I stayed off, I guess, about an hour. Everybody don‘t play harmonica anymore.‖ He said, would say, ―We want the band. Let the band ―Hezekiah, you are too good. You shouldn‘t come back and play.‖ They really enjoyed lay the harmonica aside. Try to figure out a that. Ever since then, they‘ve been calling, way to play the harmonica and the drums.‖ saying how the folks enjoyed the blues. They That‘s when I went to taping the har- hadn‘t heard blues for so many. . . . They monica to the mike. I would set it in front of hadn‘t heard blues like that for a long time. me, and I would play the drums and blow the They really enjoyed that – the little children harmonica, too. I kept practicing with that and all. They really enjoyed it. As a matter and kept practicing with that until it just be- of fact, they are talking about getting us back. come natural. I just got to the place where Some of the other people, some of his when I wasn‘t playing both of them, it friends, want to give parties and want us back seemed to me it would look like I would be to play again. just half doing the job, until today. This has

69 Gregory: Are those parties like the house except up about Clarksdale way up in the dances? north end of the Delta where there is still a drum and fife band. Early: Well, yeah, they‘re like the house dances. Early: Yeah. He‘s got CDs. As a matter of fact, we played in Clarksdale at the blues fes- Gregory: Do they still do house dances? tival, I got a chance to hear him, meet him. I want to try to get it going back home, but I Early: Every once in a while. Not very many. hadn‘t been able to do it because all of the Not very many. Every once in a while, they ones I knew that could do it have passed on. might have a house dance. I‘m about the only one I know that was around during that time. All the rest, the old drummers and fife players have passed on. I Gregory: Tell us a little bit more about that can play fife and drums. I play all, the whole fife and drum music. three instruments. I can train somebody. If I

can get, I thought about getting some of these Early: About the fife and drum? They used school bands, the school bands, the guys that to have picnics in the pastures under the pe- play in the band, in the school band. . . . If I can trees. I was a little kid. My mother could get a couple of them and train them up, would take us on a Saturday evening. They you know . . . . The only thing is if they would start before night. She would take us would do it and kind of stay with it. Like I out there on the picnic. That was pretty say, a lot of times, you get somebody and you much, most of the music they had then. It train them up, and next thing you know, was old field bands and the guitars. They they‘ve gone. It really would be good if I didn‘t have guitars at the picnics. They could get it going again. My father, he was a would have the old field bands – the bass, the fife player. He used to tell us about how he fifes, two snare drums maybe. Sometimes used to play fife. I went in the woods and got they would have three snares. That was good me a cane, cut me a cane and made me a fife. music. I mean it was good music back during That‘s how I learned how to blow. that time.

Question: Was that a flute? Gregory: Did they march with the drums?

Gregory: A fife. Early: There came a time when the society would turn out, and they would march, play Early: A fife. About that long. Get a cane, marching music, like ―When the Saints Go and you can get rid of the joint. Leave the Marching In,‖ ―Glory Hallelujah,‖ things of joint and the end. Then you take a sixteen that nature, anything they could march on. penny nail and heat it until it turns red, and

you have got to know where to place your Gregory: Yeah. But they did march? holes and bore your holes. Fix it where you can blow it. I know how to blow fifes, play Early: They did march. the drums too. I‘ve got to get, I would have to get people. What I would need about three Gregory: I‘m too young to remember that. In because somebody would have to play the fact, when Hezekiah told me that, I had no bass, and somebody would have to play the . . knowledge of fife and drum bands anywhere 70 . . . You‘d really need three snares, but you Gregory: It might get some people inter- could get by with two snares. They had ested. Christmas parades and things in Natchez, the floats, and that would be the ideal thing to Early: I might be able to. I hope I can. It have in that parade. It‘s kind of hard. I hadn‘t would be a great thing if I could. been able to . . . . I hadn‘t really tried too hard. I did talk to a couple of older guys that Comment: What kind of cane do you use? knew how to do it, but they are not able any- more. The rest of them have passed on. Early: It‘s just a cane about your thumb, just about the size of your thumb. It‘s not very Comment: In Clarksdale they have a school big. for kids, a blues school, in that old train sta- tion right across from [Inaudible] Marcy and Gregory: It‘s what we were calling river I had a bike at [Inaudible] been to the blues cane. It‘s what they make the baskets out of. thing there. We went and watched those It‘s a native cane. It‘s not the big bamboos. kids. Those kids were just having a blast.

They were teaching them real blues. They had a real good instructor, one of the guys Early: No, not the big one. You can buy that played over at the crossroads all the time. them out in stores. I never bought one, I al- They were having a blast, playing the blues. ways made my own. I never bought one. One girl [Inaudible]. Gregory: Hardrick, did you ever hear about Early: It would be a good thing if I could get anybody doing fife and drum over here? that back on the road, but I don‘t know if I‘m going to have any luck. I think I‘m going to Hardrick Rivers: No. I haven‘t. I‘m kind of get back to it and try to get something going fascinated with that. soon. I will be time for Christmas parade. I already have a tandem trailer, truck and eve- Early: You‘re not aware of the old field rything. All I would need is somebody to do bands? it. If I could get a couple of these school guys to come in and train them what to play, Rivers: No. I‘m a lot younger than you guys. it would be good. Early: Yeah. It‘s been I would say late fif- Gregory: Susan? ties, around mid-fifties, all of that went out, back during the fifties, early fifties. Before Question: Could you make a lot of those then, it was. . . . . I was born in ‘34, 10/7/34. fifes for demonstration purposes? Like to I got a chance to hear a lot of it. have at festivals? Gregory: Hardrick and I were just babies. Early: Can I make them? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Early: Right, just babies. Yeah, I go way Comment: It would be great. You could sell back then. them. Gregory: Hardrick, you were talking at the Early: Right. folk festival about some of the things you

71 were doing with the kids here, the younger participate in the Sugar Bowl. We were in- kids that you‘re teaching. Can you tell us vited to that. For this community to be the about that? size it is, we were able to take twenty-four students to the Sugar Bowl. Two thousand Rivers: I teach in Red River Parish at Cou- students from across the nation, fifteen cities, shatta. We‘re a very small school. We were that was a big thing for our little small com- just talking about it yesterday. We have a munity to take on, quite overwhelming for total of about 650 students with the junior the students as well as a lot of the chaper- high and the high school. We have about ones. I‘m always excited about going to New sixty participating students in the music pro- Orleans. I‘ve lived there; I‘ve worked there, gram this year. That‘s higher than fifty per- played music there for thirty years. To take cent of the national average, I guess. By me the students and show them around, there still being a performing musician, I think that were places I couldn‘t show them, but any- helps to recruit a lot of the students. I‘ve got way. That‘s something they will share with a couple of students this year that I‘m work- their grand-children and their grandchildren‘s ing with that I‘m teaching jazz to. You can‘t children. It was an overwhelming experi- really teach jazz without touching on some ence. We are just trying to broaden their ho- blues. This is my first time getting to have rizons by exposing them to things that they individual students I can work with in a cou- would never have encountered, being from a ple of my class programs. I help build them small community. That‘s close enough? in a stronger, in another area other than just your classical, what you‘ve got to learn, basi- Gregory: There was a little different history cally. We explore some other styles of music of blues places around here that Hardrick ran and enlighten them on that. It‘s a lot of fun. through with us over at the Festival. I think The program started out really, really it‘s pretty interesting to folks how it has small, five or six years ago. This is my sixth changed here. You remember what you did? year of teaching there. When we started this program out, we only had twelve students. Rivers: Over thirty years, I‘ve watched the Before this ended, we got about fifty. We got music scene in Natchitoches Parish over the a few more students in the dance line, the flag North Louisiana region, especially here in line, and that to make up the big number. I Natchitoches. I‘ve watched it dry completely had a rehearsal yesterday, and I think I had up, and I‘ve watched it starting to come back about forty-five students. Seven or eight again. Right now, here in Natchitoches, we were absent. We‘re looking at about fifty. In have more live music, and we have played at order to prepare our students to compete on more venues than we‘ve had in the last thirty an All State level or National level we some- years. Mr. Early was just talking about when time have to break our classes down to he was a kid, that‘s back in the forties. I smaller groups. In the last five years, I think don‘t know anything about the forties or we‘ve gotten about four scholarships, three some of the fifties. here at Northwestern and one to Grambling. When I grew up here, we had clubs We‘re just building the spirit in the students everywhere, on every highway that came into in our area, basically what we‘re doing, just this city or that left out of this city. There building the morale and the spirit in the stu- was a club someplace that people would go dents. to. I‘ve visited, actually lived in, Texarkana, This past BGA Sugar Bowl, we were Texas for a minute. I got a chance to witness able to take our students to New Orleans to those clubs out in the pastures. In East

72 Texas, they had a lot of clubs that on Sundays n‘t seem to be a way. and Saturday evenings, you‘d go to this, they All of a sudden, we started coming up called it the pasture. You‘d have to know with these festivals here. Now then, Christ- how to get there. You‘d drive out there, and mas Festival has been going on for seventy- there‘d be a club sitting out in a pasture, cows one, seventy-two years, something like that. out there, people having a great time, cooking That‘s been around and established. The and dancing, blues band, two-, three-, four- R&B Festival and other little festivals al- piece bands playing. I got a chance to see lowed the local musicians to play at night that picture of the pasture. again. Then we were able to start putting Here we just had barrooms and I call music in some of the venues again. There‘s them juke joints, places where people just one place I play, we play until 11:00 on Fri- hung out. I don‘t remember exactly the year, day night. There‘s another place I play; we probably thirty years ago, boy time flies. We play until midnight on a Friday night. had a sheriff we elected. Two of his cam- There‘s another place that I play every Thurs- paign promises were to create a Neighbor- day night that we play until midnight. We hood Watch Program here in Natchitoches have amplified music in Natchitoches again where people; I think we still have the signs that‘s past 10:00 pm. Now, there are still in all the neighborhoods – the Neighborhood places that have private functions such as Watch Program. People really got concerned wedding receptions and things. The law in with what was going on with the neighbors. the Historic District of Natchitoches, you still It took care of some of them, people who can‘t play amplified music past 10:00 pm. were violating other people in the commu- That‘s OK because we now have music all nity. People started paying attention to their over town. That‘s some changes that I‘ve wit- neighbors‘ property and things of this nature. nessed in the last thirty, thirty-five years. The other thing in that sheriff‘s plat- I‘ve been playing over at Roque‘s form was to get rid of all of the clubs that Blues Hall. It‘s over in east Natchitoches. I were on the side of the highways. It was suc- started a blues jam over there. May of 2011 cessful in closing every club in Natchitoches will be fifteen years. We do it on the last Fri- Parish that was not in the city limits. His day night of the month, every month. It‘s method for doing that would be to put depu- been successful. There was a journalist here. ties on either side of the club. As the people I haven‘t seen him in years, but I still hear his would leave, pull them over and give them a name from time to time. His name is Junior drug test and whatever. People couldn‘t af- Doughty. He did a lot of research. One of the ford a DWI every time they wanted to go things that Junior Doughty created was what have a beer, so people stopped going. He he called the Delta Blues circuit, no he called was successful at doing that, whereas in the it Junior Doughty‘s Juke Box. That‘s what city itself, there was an ordinance passed. I he called it. It was his research of Delta blues don‘t know when it was in place, but some- clubs. He went up and down the Delta ( Mis- body decided that there would be no ampli- sissippi) and compared clubs, blues clubs, to fied music in the city of Natchitoches after that scene in Louisiana. Some of the stuff 10:00 pm at night. If you played any music that he wrote got out. I guess through inter- that was amplified, you had to quit playing net or whatever method it got out. He got by 10:00. People generally don‘t go out until CNN‘s attention. CNN came to Natchitoches 9:00 or 10:00 at night, so that shut all that to do a story on Junior Doughty‘s research on music down. It‘s amazing how the powers to Delta blues clubs. One of the places that they be can make things happen when there does- came was to Roque‘s Blues Hall. We set up a

73 scenario there just like we were playing for saw somebody doing it. Then they would our regular blues jam. We played for them want to say, ―I can hew a walking [stick]. I and interviewed with them. That was in May think that‘s kind of the way the tradition or June of 2000 or ‘99. That January they might be passed on. I don‘t know if I can do aired that thing, that Delta blues thing. At this, but . . . . When the Folk Festival was that point, the music scene changed at here this year and I met Poochie and Heze- Roque‘s. Once that was aired, we started get- kiah for the first time, I‘d seen them, but I ting people from everywhere I won‘t say eve- hadn‘t walked up and shook their hand. I was rywhere because that‘s a big word, but from in the studio at that time working on a CD, a several countries. I met people from South blues CD. I am going to say we finished it Africa and Austria, northern England and this week. I‘m hoping to have it at Roques‘s places. They wanted to come to the United next week. That‘s my goal. I‘m thinking that States. They wanted to go to New Orleans. if everything goes well with that, then we‘ll They wanted to go and see what Beale Street have, should have a pretty large audience. I in Memphis was, and they wanted to come to have to say this. In our Afro-American cul- Natchitoches to Roque‘s Blues Hall. I found ture, we probably have less of our children that kind of intriguing. wanting to learn the blues. In other cultures, The music scene changed again be- in Japan, China, and a lot of Anglo-Saxons, cause the blues got established once again in they do want to know the blues – the chil- Natchitoches. At the time when I decided to dren. They are studying it various ways. do that, we had three-piece jazz bands. We When you travel around the world, you see. I had variety dance bands. We had a couple of know some guys from Japan that if you other, but we didn‘t have any blues in this passed outside the building and didn‘t go in, town. I talked to Roque‘s. I had been play- you would think that this was some John Lee ing over there over the years. He has the per- Hookers and Big Joe Turner. You would fect blues atmosphere – hardwood floors that think that these guys were. . . . You just you can‘t wear heels on because your heels stuck you head in the door and you saw these might go through. Regulation pool tables. faces of, you‘d think it was animated. When Can you imagine trying to play? The capac- you look and see. . . . Remember the Japa- ity of the place is only seventy-five people. nese movies where the sound would come We‘ve had the fire marshal in there when out before the mouth would move? Other cul- we‘ve had 150, so we‘re OK. Just to watch tures are really promoting it. We‘ve just got the changes. There‘s a band in Shreveport, to figure out a way to get our Afro-American that‘s pretty well known. They call them- culture to start promoting it or to not let it selves The Bluebirds. They do a really good die. job on trying to duplicate the blues. They I was listening to Dr. Jackson talking play it really, really hard and do a good job about the tradition of the New Orleans Indi- with it. When Pete asked the question, ans and what it means to them. My brother- ―What is it we can do for inspiring young in-law is a New Orleans Indian. He‘s Golden people into the blues?‖ my answer would be Eagle. One of the most fascinating things for just to play the blues. If you project that, him to do is go to New Orleans for Mardi somebody will listen to it and somebody will Gras and go hang out with Bo Dollis, want to duplicate what you‘re doing if it‘s Boudreaux and the gang. For twenty-five good stuff. That‘s just like somebody mak- years, he sewed a suit every year. He‘d sew, ing a walking stick. You don‘t find any kids sew, sew, sew, sew. I‘ve learned what the that would be interested in that unless they tradition of the New Orleans, and the children

74 have learned the tradition. I mean, it‘s em- [Inaudible] for example. He said [Inaudible] bedded in them. Parents teach. They see it. strictly live album and it‘s going to mostly be They feel it. We‘ve just got to do the same the blues. This is getting a lot of young peo- thing with the blues. We‘ve got to figure out ple interested that have never been interested some kind of way to make the connection before. It‘s actually coming through a with our children and grandchildren. I think [Inaudible] hip hop. In New Orleans, hip hop in the seventies when disco music became has interesting fusions. You can see it in real popular. . . . I mentioned when DJs re- Acadiana, too, when you have the brass hop. placed bands. All that really happened. Then It‘s traditional New Orleans brass music, but Rap became popular. I always said when the people rap hip hop. People rap over the people said Rap was going to take over, I traditional brass music. The same thing is said, ―No. It‘s going to find its place. It‘s happening with Zydeco. I think that they‘re going to find its place.‖ Let‘s face it. Pop not always so distinct musical genres as peo- Tarts didn‘t replace grits. It had to find its ple think. place because when Pop Tarts came out, it was all about Pop Tarts. If you wanted a good Jackson: I agree. I really see Tabby Thomas bowl of grits, there was no substitute for now playing with his son. They‘re playing grits. That‘s the same thing with this. Rap the old blues like Tabby‘s blues, but they‘re and Hip Hop, I think at this point, have found also playing his son‘s blues, and they‘re mix- their place. Now that it has its place, it‘s time ing it up, too. for the cycle to continue evolving and blues to rise again. I feel that way, and I guess Rivers: Incorporating both styles into it. that‘s why I pursue it and push it. Jackson: Right. Exactly. Jackson: I wanted to comment on that, too, because I‘ve heard some blues musicians say Gregory: That kind of happened with . . . . that hip hop is the young man‘s blues. They They were talking about Geno Delafose yes- are really singing about some of the same is- terday. Geno started out with his dad. When sues that the Delta bluesmen were singing he was ten years old, he was up here playing about forty or fifty years ago. frottoir, rubboard, with his dad. When his dad passed away, Geno probably is the best Rivers: I agree. I can agree with that because known Creole Zydeco musician in the state. they are getting. . . . It‘s a message that they He passed it right on in the family, the family are trying to get out. Blues is a message, so I tradition for the music. can see that hip hop is a young man‘s blues. I can see that. Rivers: What is the guy‘s name, that Hadley Castille? Question: I think more [Inaudible] hip hop artists now more than see the challenge, inter- Gregory: Hadley Castille, with his grand- est and [Inaudible] applied music. Some of daughter. them are actually introducing young people to the blues, and to [Inaudible] music more general. You have like groups, they intro- Rivers: With his granddaughter. duce young people to everything from grunge to reggae to soul to the blues. You have Gregory: He does Cajun music. other hip hop artists that are well known. 75 Rivers: They came up here for several years I want to first provide an overview of and played Cajun music. I‘ve watched that some history on the Sabine River. Of course little girl grow from a tiny. . . . She became during pre-history, the river was part of the quite a spokesperson, too. She does all the Caddo Indian homelands. Beginning in the talking for him now. That‘s one way . . . . early nineteenth century, it was part of the That‘s another thing. In Afro-American cul- Spanish territory. During the Civil War both ture from my eyesight, I‘ve noticed that we Union and Confederate soldiers made use of don‘t generally pass the piece down to our the Sabine to transport men and equipment. descendants as I find in other cultures. Busi- At the height of the steamboat trade in Lou- nesses, if we own a business, some way or isiana, several vessels transported sugar, cot- the other, our children don‘t get involved in ton, passengers, and household items to state that. If we have a skill, looks like our chil- residents by navigating the waters of the Sa- dren don‘t get involved in that. I don‘t know bine River. Then roughly from the period what it is about our culture, but it seems to 1961-1969 we have the Toledo Bend Dam me that our children choose not to replicate Project. what the family has already built. I see in I‘m going to use a Sabine Parish 12th other cultures, you already know what you grade lesson plan to help explain the ideology destiny is because this is what‘s already behind the Toledo Bend Dam Project. Ac- started. That‘s through my eyes. I don‘t cording to the lesson plan, ―The Toledo Bend know, maybe I‘m just not looking at it right. project was constructed by the Sabine River I noticed that. Authority of Louisiana and the Sabine River Authority of Texas, primarily for the pur- Gregory: Shift gears a little bit. Let Rolonda poses of water supply, hydroelectric power tell us about the folks on the Sabine River. generation and recreation.‖ By the time the Then I‘m going to let Curtis talk about the dam was completed it represented the largest graveyard. Can we do that? Good luck, Ro. man-made body of water in the South. For me, that statement is significant because it I‘m going to let Poochie and Hezekiah do implies that a whole lot of land was taken in their informance. Give Poochie a chance to order to create such massive water space. sing, unless you want to sing while Ro is set- The communities I want to focus on today in ting up. I didn‘t mean to skip you there. terms of how they were affected by the Sa- bine and Texas River Authorities are Ebarb and Pine Flat. Rolonda Teal: It‘s funny, but when Dr. Joyce Jackson was up here talking, [Inaudible] got together on certain issues or something. As I was listening to you, I was saying, ―Wait a minute. We‘re talking about the same stuff, only in a different [Inaudible].‖ I‘m going to talk about former resi- dents of the Sabine River. I got this title, ―The Old Folks Grieved Themselves to Death,‖ from an elder who I was interviewing that had been displaced from her home as part of the building project for the Toledo Dam. I felt the title kind of summed up the general attitude that some of the elders had. Pine Flat 76 The Ebarb community is known as represent a safe place. It was away from the home of many Spanish and Native mainstream society. If you lived in the river American descendents. While conducting an bottoms of the Sabine River, you lived on the oral history in the community, Mr. Kenneth fringes of society. Garcie recounted a story passed on to him There were several community groups from his mother which took place during the in the bottoms that were similar to Ebarb in Civil War. The story illustrates the role that many cultural aspects, yet they were also dis- the Ebarb community had in acting as a hide- tinct by the surnames associated with those away for People of Color who did not want to communities. For example, there were participate in the war efforts. 1. The ―Cross the Creek Branch‖ who They didn't want any part of it and lived northwest of Zwolle towards Noble they didn't feel a part of it because and Converse. Community Surnames: they were part Indian and Spanish. So Manshack, Malmay, Procell, Paddie. they would go hide in the river bottom and their families would take 2.The ―River Bottom People‖ who them food. inhabited the bottomlands. Community Surnames: Rivers, Ezernacks, Bisons, The river bottom and the timber being Malmay, Procell, Sepulvado what it was at the time. It was virgin timber in there and the big cypress 3. The ―Creek Bottom People‖ who were trees were huge. They could live in identified as racially mixed with Indian these trees, inside a big hollowed out and European ancestry. cypress tree. The families would take them food from time to time so they Another community affected by the would stay out of the way of the pa- Toledo Bend Dam Project, Pine Flat, was lo- trols. cated about 25 miles south of Ebarb. Mrs. Alma Cross stated that while growing up in There were a lot of Indians here be- Pine Flat she, ―didn‘t know what black and fore the war but they were taken off to white was. We were all just family down the war to fight and the black slaves there. We ate at the same table, slept in the were in the mix. They were hiding. same beds, and sometimes ate out of the The Indians were hiding, the Spanish same plate‖ (Alma Cross 2009). Indians were hiding and it was a lot of Just like you had in the Ebarb area, in them that didn‘t want to fight. Pine Flat there were distinct communities and Kenneth Garcie, surnames associated with them. For example there were the Bar Lake and Richard Neck Choctaw-Apache 2009 Communities whose surnames included: Ga- saway, Grace, Neck, Cross, Sweet, Stalls- Spanish, Indians, and African descen- worth, Fobbs, and Hines. Although the Pine dants all gathered together in this place along Flat region held mostly African American the Sabine River bottoms to hide out in cy- residents, other cultural groups also lived press trees in hopes of escaping war. In the among them. process of living there what started out per- Mrs. Cross described her own ances- haps as temporary accommodations wound try to illustrate the diversity of the bottom up being more permanent. The area really did land residents. She stated that her Grand-

77 mother Lula Fobbs had Blackfoot, Choctaw, interred. At the entrance of the cemetery is a and Irish ancestry. Mrs. Cross is a light- marker dedicated by the River Authorities in skinned woman who self identifies as African remembrance of those whose bodies were not American, but who could pass for another discovered during the relocation process and ethnicity. thus would have been submerged by the new The tendency it seems when talking about history along the Sabine River, is to discuss it in terms of separation of the races. We research Indian, Spanish, African, Mexi- can, and Creole history, yet what I‘m finding from the oral histories is that it wasn‘t a dis- tinct separation of people since many of the Sabine River bottom people were at minimal bi-ethnic and were living as a community more so than as distinct cultural groups. These were people who it appears depended on one another for social and economic sup- port without much regard to ethnic affiliation. So when the Toledo Bend Dam Pro- Macedonia ject came in these people were removed and I‘m not just talking about Ebarb and Pine Flat. Each removal of course meant the river boundaries. In the end, over a hundred physical loss of a home and it also created a graves were relocated. loss of cultural traditions. For example, the I‘m going to preface this next slide Macedonian United Methodist Church was because some people are going to have a associated with the Pine Flat or Richard Neck problem with the wording, but I‘m using it to communities. The congregation dated back to make a point. When the numerous residents 1841 and it‘s likely they were meeting out in were removed they lost their homes, part of the woods in a brush arbor. Here is a commu- their culture, everything they had known was nity of people who date to slavery times but no longer what it used to be. Not only did soon after Toledo Bend Dam was in place, they have to deal with all of that stuff that the church broke up and split to form two had happened to them, then they also had to separate ones. Over a hundred years of his- also deal with how outsiders viewed them. tory and solidarity was destroyed with the This was one comment made by a for- building of the dam. Some members of the mer Zwolle resident: original congregation were moved a little fur- ther north and into a subdivision currently We called them Black Mexicans. known as the Yellow Pine community. They moved into the Zwolle and The River Authorities allowed con- Ebarb area after Toledo Bend was put gregants from Macedonia Church to build a in. They were black and ugly and new church on three acres of land which was dirty. We didn‘t know what they purchased for one dollar. The cemetery, once were. People we ain‘t never seen be- located in Pine Flats, was relocated behind fore, and they all came out of the river the new church. Each removed grave is bottoms. They started coming into marked with a square concrete slab and none Zwolle right after they put in the dam. contain information as to the identity of the

78 Wow, what a statement. It says a What I‘d like to see done at this point couple of things. First of all, nobody wanted is more research that documents the outcome to be black nor did they want to be Mexican of those displaced community members. due to the racism associated with those desig- Where did they go? What economic hard- nations. At one time, folks didn‘t want to be ships, if any, did they experience? What cus- referred to as Indian either for the same rea- toms/activities have been altered or lost as a sons. Not because they didn‘t want to iden- direct result of the relocation? These are but a tify with their own culture, but because to be few examples of the types of research ques- a part of either one of those groups was tions that need answering. I would like to see viewed negatively by folks outside the com- an exhibit, signage, website, or kiosk located munity. Yet I believe that it was exactly somewhere in the affected parishes that ac- those cultures and combination of those cul- knowledge this historic altercation of the Sa- tures that really brought everybody together bine River bottoms and its effects on the peo- in the river bottoms. They for the most part ple who called them home. After all, it would represented people that nobody else wanted seem difficult to talk about the Toledo Bend to be part of. It‘s as though they gathered to- Dam Project and all the recreational activities gether in solidarity and in order to survive. afforded by it and not talk about the people By the time the River Authorities were get- that have been displaced. It would be like ting ready to put in the dam, these people talking about plantations without talking typically were referred to as lake or river about the slaves. trash simply because they were typically poor Just as state and local officials should and multi-ethnic. share in the responsibility of documenting While it is understood that the au- and acknowledging those nonexistent com- thorities in this project can never go back and munities, so too does the former community undo what‘s already been done, I think that members themselves and some of them have. there are certain responsibilities that state and Some members of the river bottoms that be- local officials have to the descendants of long to the Choctaw Apache group have an those various communities. It seems how- annual powwow and a cultural center located ever that the authorities feel justified in their in the Zwolle, Louisiana area. This group is actions and explained their position through beginning to gain more visibility in terms of these words: ―No towns or extensive im- tourism opportunities. In the same town is provements lay within the reservoir area, al- held the annual Zwolle Tamale Festival, though there were some rural dwellings, which is meant to honor Spanish culture in stores, churches, and cemeteries in the the region, although the tradition of tamales area.‖ is Mexican. In recent years some residents The bolded areas are mine. What from the Ebarb community have gained some constitutes a town? There were homes, economic revenue through gas drilling leases. churches, schools, stores, and cemeteries in These leases only appear to be happening in this reservoir area. Yes, there was some com- the upper-mid portions of Sabine Parish. For pensation given to the former residents such those displaced residents that were further as providing housing in other places and a south on the river like in the Pine Flat area, percentage of money given toward approxi- economic benefits from the river are virtually mate property value. However, there are nonexistent. some things that can not be compensated for What the former community of Pine such as loss of traditional lands and the cul- Flat has decided to do to commemorate that ture associated with that. period in their collective history was to begin

79 forming a non-profit group that would pri- my home at the bottom of the Sabine. marily be dedicated to hosting Pine Flat Community Reunions, the first of which was I‘ve got the Toledo Bend Dam Blues. Oh held in August of 2009. The reunion report- Lord why didn‘t they just let us be. edly had people come in from everywhere I‘ve got the Toledo Bend Dam Blues cause that used to live down in those regions that living there was the only life for me. are now underwater. I wanted to be able to help get the Bibilography story out about those relocated cultural ―History of Toledo Bend Dam‖ Sabine groups and because this session is entitled Parish School System. 22 Mar. 2011. ―Blues Along the River‖ I thought that I 31 Mar. 2011. http:// would compose a blues tune that I felt echoed www.sabine.k12.la.us/fhs/history% the sentiments of the former residents with 20of%20Toledo.htm whom I spoke. Almost every blues song I‘ve heard is talking about something that has ―Macedonia United Methodist Church‖ The gone wrong or doesn‘t feel right. Blues Historical Register of the Louisiana songs give, for example, a voice to a group of Conference of The United Methodist people or individuals who feel somehow dis- Church. 31 Mar. 2011. http:// enfranchised or oppressed. They have no- www.iscuo.org/lc_macedonia.htm. where else to go with their frustrations and so they make a blues song based on their feel- ―Toledo Bend Dam Project‖, Toledo ings. After sitting and talking with some of Bend.com. 7 Sep. 2010. those people from the Sabine River bottoms www.Toledobend.com. and really trying to get the gist of what they were upset about, I created the ―Toledo Bend Interviews below taken from the ―Myths and Dam Blues.‖ The song lyrics are mine and Legends Project‖ sponsored by the parishes they seem at least in my mind to describe ex- of: Allen, Beauregard, Sabine, DeSoto, and actly what the people were feeling. Vernon. Kenneth Garcie, Choctaw-Apache 2009 Mary Rivers, Zwolle Resident, 2009 Toledo Bend Dam Blues Alma Cross, former Pine Flat resident 2009 I once lived on the banks of the Sabine River Mary Belton Lloyd, 2010 Where the Cypress tress grew high as the sky Sometimes we fished from the front porch Gregory: Curtis, you‘ve got a hard act to fol- and on the back porch we'd hang our clothes low, but you‘ve got a graveyard. out to dry Curtis Desselles: I‘ll do my best. Then came the river authority people, They told us we had to leave. Gregory: Curtis has got something, again, Gave us a few coins for our property and very similar, I think. moved us to a house in the hills

Desselles: Today, we‘re talking about music They flooded the church, the graveyard, and which is the universal form of communica- the school tion. I‘m going to forego the PowerPoint and Then told us how great our lives would be talk strictly with the spoken word. I have a But all I have is an empty house cause I left

80 poster to help a little bit. real story of the courage of the African The story starts not only what the American community that developed from poster says in 2007 with my thesis from this plantation really started in 1903. In Breda Town, but it starts a long time ago. I‘ll 1892, Dr. Breda died. He had a succession. The kids decided that they would not enforce tell you the rest of the story. the succession until at least 1903 when their In 1838, a young man named J. P. mother died. [Inaudible] In 1903 the mother Breda, John Phillip Breda, a white physician, died; 1902 actually, she dies. In 1903, a came from Baltimore. He had just graduated group of people, now listen to the term of the from Baltimore Medical School. He was name of this group – The People‘s Union As- looking forward to making his mark in Amer- sociation. A group of African Americans that ica. He came down to Natchitoches. There consisted of four people from the AME was a Dr. Skinner that said, ―You can prac- church, four people from the Baptist Church, tice with me.‖ He came down. He established and four people from no church at all. a practice. He started building up a planta- Twelve people like the twelve apostles. tion. I call this ―Breda Town Project: From They got this group together, pooled Plantation to Community.‖ You‘ll see why I their little. . . . They didn‘t have much call it that. He started amassing a whole money at the time. They lived in this bottom amount of land, a strip going from the His- land called Breda Town, right off Texas toric District all the way to Grand Ecore. It Street. They pooled together and the price was Breda Town. His last name was Breda. that was quoted to them for the cemetery, that He was of French descent. He was from the is here today, was $150.00. That was a lot of Netherlands originally. They started this money in 1903. A $150.00. The deal was community. they would pay $50.00 down and $100.00 in It was just a regular plantation, but the next three months. They did. Somehow, there was something unique about this planta- they got the money and paid the whole thing tion. He had one of the slave brothers. On off. Now, they own Breda Town Cemetery. the schedule, he had twenty-six slaves. The What does this have to do with the unique part about this was that he didn‘t plant cemetery today? At that time, the cemetery cotton or corn or anything like that. He grew association that took care of the cemetery grapes and peach orchards. Made peach was called People‘s Union Association, brandy to sell and made, at the time it says in which later was called in 1940 the Breda some of the documents it was pretty good Town Cemetery Association, which it is to- wine. He imported the grapes and the day. peaches from different parts of Europe and In 2003, I found these beautiful re- the grapes especially from England. He cords at the courthouse. I went to the Natchi- started this, and eventually he married a local toches Courthouse, and of course, I couldn‘t woman, and they started their family, of find anything. I looked and looked and fi- course. They had about eleven children. As nally after disgust, I looked up. On top of a the time goes on, about the 1850s, 1860s cabinet, I saw this book that was laying there. when the Civil War was brewing, General There it was. The only thing that had any- Banks burned down his vineyards and peach thing about the sale of that land in 1903. orchards. That year he was selling over 400 Luck always came to me then. Fortune came gallons of peach brandy. People of Natchito- to me. ches were doing pretty good. One of the local ministers Reverend That‘s how the story starts, but the Gant came and brought us a datebook where

81 they kept all of their grave inventory, their which is the Masters in Heritage Resources sales, their local business every day, and gave program that we had that I was in, they all us this thing. It was amazing. I copied and helped. We had students from all. . . . Eve- scanned this book. I found such great infor- rybody participated. The cemetery got. . . . mation that told a story of these courageous You should take. . . You should see from people. Not only did they manage the ceme- beginning to today. It‘s a big world of differ- tery, but they helped people during the time – ence. The cemetery was clean. The trees lean times. They gave them work. They were cut; the branches. The city of Natchito- would pay them a few cents to collect debts ches helped us by sending prisoners or some that were in arrears or clean the cemetery or of the staff from the city to pick up the dead fix this and that. This was a beautiful story. trees and limbs and trash that was picked up A little later, in 2007, here comes Dr. from there. It evolved. Gregory and I. We‘re looking to see what I got my thesis completed. We had can I use for my thesis. He said, ―I‘ve got many, many great cleaning days. It‘s so ex- something for you. Chris Paige, Breda Town citing to write a book after the thesis was Community Cemetery Association, and a completed about the area. Cane River Na- bunch of workers in that area, want to docu- tional Heritage Area was gracious enough to ment the cemetery, Breda Town Cemetery.‖ give me a grant to publish this book. As you I said, ―This is great. I‘ll do it.‖ We got to- see on the poster, it tells a little bit about it. gether. We didn‘t know how much it was I‘m going to go from the beginning, from going to be. We‘re still working on it even plantation to the community and all things in though my thesis is finished and I‘m in the between. We had a [Inaudible]. The Forest process of writing the book. We go to all Service gave us some GPR. They came and their meetings. We‘re considered, me and did it for us. The Ground Penetrating Radar Dr. Gregory. we are considered part of the found graves. We still haven‘t gotten any of community. We do everything but vote. the results yet, but hopefully. . . . There are Pretty soon, we might do that. plenty of graves there. There are more than 837 graves for sure. We found not only just Gregory: No. the graves and physical markers there. We found a lot of African American burial prac- Desselles: No. We started the project in tices that existed at the time. 2007. We recorded the first grave. Guess Talk about diversity. People would what the first grave‘s name was. Charles. It not think that an African American cemetery was the first grave on the area by Raphael in Natchitoches would be that diverse. There and Spring Street. We started recording We were Creoles buried there. They were Rus- ended up with 837 graves that had something sian Creoles. How about that? The Kochin- on them. You could see the marker, or they skys. Russian Creoles. There were Wong had a name on it. About 30% of them were and Hongo families – Chinese – that were unmarked. They had no name on them at all. buried in the cemetery. That is also a possi- There were many more [Inaudible]. bility that there is a Tuskegee Airman that‘s We started this community work. We buried there. Also, the representation of this wanted to get the community involved in all community in the military is staggering. We of this. We had cleaning days, cemetery have Air Force, Marines, all the wars cov- cleaning days. The community started really ered, Navy, Army, all the wars are covered. getting excited about it. We had a good The African American community really showing several times. The MAHR class, took part in the American Dream at the time

82 even though all of the turmoil and things that ask my mother and father about taking me to were happening during the early parts of our their home. We would sit up at night and 20th century. practice. That‘s how it all got started. It‘s a great project. We worked hard. Before they started taking me to their Now we are going to have a book on it. Last homes, my father, like I said, we were raised couple of meetings ago, we had a scanning on a farm. We didn‘t get to go to town very day. This was great. We had put out the much, maybe twice a year, maybe. We were word in the community so they could give us living about thirteen miles out north of all the old pictures so we could have some Natchez at Perkins. My father would go to pictures in the book. We had a good show- town on a Saturday and my uncle. He would ing. I scanned sixty-six pictures. Not only work around a grocery store and bag grocer- did it bring pictures, they brought these little ies for them all day on a Saturday. When funeral home brochures. They had the pic- he‘d get ready to leave, the store owner ture of the person and all the information, would give him a harmonica to bring [to] me who survived who. A wealth of information and my brother – two harmonicas. At that was found. The book with be, hopefully, fin- time harmonicas weren‘t over, I imagine, ished by the first part of the year. This is a twenty-five, thirty cents, something like that. great project. I‘m just glad to be part of it. I My father would bring them home. We‘d got a thesis out of it, and I donated all the have a lot of racket around the house with proceeds from the book to the Breda Town them. Momma would run us out of the Cemetery Association. I‘m happy to do that. house, ―Get out of here.‖ I leave you with a few words about I had an uncle. My auntie‘s husband, community service. NSU was really helpful he could really play a harmonica. He would and all the students were helpful, and the come over some time and set up that night. Park Service, a whole bunch of other places, My father would like to hear him play. I the Cane River National Heritage Area, to started to try to play what I‘d hear him play. donate a lot of time. Students helped. I‘ll He never taught me nothing. I just learned leave you with the words of Albert Pine. how to play what I‘d hear him play, which What one does for himself dies upon his was not much but the ―Freight Train Blues‖ death. What one does for others lives on. is what he called it and a couple of different numbers he had. Gregory: Are there questions? Yes, ma‘am? I learned that good, but I wanted to get better than that. I wanted to really play Question: When you were learning harmonica. I heard about Papa Lightfoot. [Inaudible] what were musicians [Inaudible] Papa George is what we used to call him. when you were a kid? Papa George was his real name, but we called him Papa Lightfoot. He had a snowball wagon. He would be up and down the streets Early: When I was a kid? Robert Fitzgerald, in town. He‘d pull it himself and set up on Sr. and Johnny Fitzgerald, Jr. Those were the corner and make snowballs. Now, he was who started taking me around. a harmonica player. I never heard nobody

before and since to beat him playing harmon- Question: Around Natchez? ica. He was good. He was real cross-eyed. You couldn‘t tell which way he was looking. Early: Around Natchez. They were the ones I would hear about Papa George. They that would come to the house and get me and would have him in concerts and different

83 things all around. I wanted to hear Papa be, then I would drive that peg down to keep George. Eventually, my father carried me to it there. That‘s the way I made that first gui- town one Saturday. I was favored to meet tar. Messed around and learned how to play Papa George on the corner selling snowballs. some notes; learned how to play guitar. I People would come by, and they would give never did stay with the guitar enough to get him a dime, fifteen cents, and he would give really good, but I could play. I could play them a couple of numbers. That‘s what I guitar. [Inaudible] play guitar, too. wanted to do. I wanted to play what I‘d hear him play. Gregory: Watch out, Poochie. Time rolled on. There was a lady that lived up about a quarter of a mile up the Early: I kept that guitar over years. When I street from us. She gave a party, a fish fry. got married and left home, that‘s when it got She got Papa George to come down and play. away. I don‘t know what happened to it. I was small. I wasn‘t allowed out anywhere. My brother had a bicycle. He had got pretty Gregory: What did you use for strings on big size then. He was kind of like that guitar? [Inaudible]. I couldn‘t go. I got on that bicy- cle – stole off, went up there. I didn‘t go in; I just hung up on the outside there for about Early: I got some strings from Fitzgerald, my twenty or thirty minutes and listened to Papa old strings. He had some old strings, and I George playing that harmonica. I said, got some of those old strings to play some on. ―That‘s what I want.‖ At first I had fish line, but I went away from I started practicing what I heard him fish line and got the old strings from Fitzger- play. That‘s what got me to where I am to- ald. At first I started off with fish line. That day, listening at Papa George. Nobody ever was my first guitar. I can still play guitar a trained me. All this came from scratch The little bit. Now I‘m kind of rusty because I drums, nobody trained me how to do drums. don‘t fool with guitar. I don‘t even have one I just listened to other people, went back at home. home, got me a bucket, [Inaudible] and went to playing what I hear them play. Robert [Lil‘ Poochie] Watson: You On the guitar, my daddy would bring . [Inaudible] handful of mine. . . . Sometimes the store owner would give them cheese, some cheese, give them the Early: No, no. I can‘t mess with you. I can‘t whole box. It would be about a half pound of mess with you. cheese in there or maybe two pounds of cheese left in there. He would, ―Just take the Jackson: Mr. Early, did you ever play in the whole thing home, Wilson.‖ He would bring piney woods of Mississippi with the lumber the cheese boxes home. I got around there camp circuit? and turned one into a guitar. We had what you call a draw knife. I had to hew that thing Early: What about now? out and got me a piece of oak, a piece of oak wood, and made the neck and everything. Jackson: Did you ever play in the lumber Made a guitar, that‘s what I did, made a gui- camps in the piney woods? tar. At the time, I didn‘t have the money to buy the keys. I had pegs. Every so often, if I Early: No, I never did. tightened that string like it was supposed to

84 Jackson: You didn‘t. Haney‘s?‖

Early: Never did that. Early: Haney‘s. Oh, yeah. I was Haney‘s house band for about six years, I would say. Jackson: OK. What happened there, it something like what he said. We had a sheriff that got elected Early: That‘s the way I first got started on there in Natchez. He closed things down be- playing music. I never was trained to play cause they would play too loud music. He music; I just picked it up on my own. Old was tight on that. We started playing over on man Robert Fitzgerald, Sr. and Johnny Fitz- the Louisiana side. Haney heard about us. gerald, Jr. were the ones that came to the He called me. He hired us for his house house to start taking me around, practicing band. We‘d play every Friday, Saturday, and with me and tuning in with me, taking me out Sunday. This went on like, I‘d say, about six to little parties and things like that. It just years. That was bringing all the people out of grew. We got good, got real good. Every- Natchez to Louisiana. On a Friday night, body wanted us to play. At that time, there Saturday night, you couldn‘t walk in were only two other big bands in Natchez. Haney‘s. He never closed his doors. He There were three of us, but there were two stayed open twenty-four hours. We played big, seven-piece bands. They would travel. there. Whenever he wanted to bring in a big They didn‘t play around the honkytonks too band on us, he would always bring them in much around there. We had all of that, out in on a Sunday night. We‘d be off that Sunday the country. Like he just said, there was a lot night, and he would give us a free pass to of clubs. . . come in and see the big-time musicians. He would always give us whatever we wanted to Rivers: Some places. . . . eat and drink. He had a restaurant in there, too. We played for Haney about, I‘d say Early: . . juke joints out in the country during about, six years. that time. But all of that stuff faded away be- What happened, things kind of cause the older ones that owned all those opened up. They were losing so much clubs, they passed away. Some of them did- money out of Natchez, they kind of opened n‘t have children to take it on. It just went Natchez back up. We still were playing for down. Time rolled on. Most all those places Haney, but they would get us whenever they are gone. We have a few clubs uptown, but could. Haney‘s burned down. they don‘t do very much because when the When Haney‘s burned down, there boat opened up under the hill, everybody was a man by the name of Grady Coleman. started going to the boat. If you go to the He moved into Natchez from Laurel Hill and boat, all you‘ve got to do is just sit there and opened up Crossed Keys in Natchez. He play a few dollars in the slot machine, and hired us. I played fifteen years, every Friday, they‘re going to bring you all you want to Saturday. Not on Sunday. We had a differ- drink. If you got to a club, you‘ve got to buy ent place down on 61 South, Florema your drink. That keeps juke joints down. [Inaudible] .We played for him on Sunday nights. This went on around fifteen years. The building got in bad shape for Big Grady Question: Did you play at Haney‘s? Coleman. He had to move out of there. The

owner wouldn‘t remodel the place or any- Gregory: She said, ―Did you play at thing. He went out. He had a stroke, and he

85 passed away. Question: [Inaudible] During that time, we weren‘t doing very much. Every once in a while, we‘d get a Early: That‘s what got us the marker they put play to play for the Garden Club, these ante- out at the museum in Ferriday. bellum homes. They would call on us to play. That went along for, I‘d say, a year or Gregory: Got any other questions? so. They had an annual ball on an Easter Saturday night. I had made up some cards. I Question: I have a lot of questions, but this had me some cards made up, printed up. This one is for Dr. Jackson. When you were talk- particular Saturday night, they had 2500 peo- ing about the initial resettlement in the six- ple at this annual ball from all everywhere – ties, you didn‘t really touch upon the pres- Jackson, Monroe, Alexandria, down the sures of the time, integration or the coast, all around. They attend that pilgrim- [Inaudible] of the political landscape in St. age Garden Club ball. I had cards every- Bernard Parish with the Perez or the where. People just got my card. [Inaudible]. More [Inaudible] in New Orleans After that night, we started getting and St. Bernard Parishes. I‘m wondering. calls to Monroe, Jackson, Biloxi, Hattiesburg, Did the sort of overall vehement racism that all the surrounding areas. We were getting existed in St. Bernard lean toward more set- calls. We were getting bookings. We just tlements that [Inaudible]? got away from the night clubs. We didn‘t fool with the night clubs. We just played for the pilgrimage Garden Club and private par- Jackson: Yes it did. I just didn‘t take time to ties and things of that nature, reunions and bring up all of that because I was trying to stuff like that. That‘s when we came in con- focus on the cultural aspect. Yes, that was tact with, recorded that record. We were one of the main reasons why they were playing out at the Natchez Mall for a boat moved. I knew what was going on during show on a Friday night. Someone came that time, but I wanted to hear it from the through and heard us playing. They listened. residents, so I was asking the questions, some They listened to the band, and they were very pointed questions to find out about these interested in it. The next thing I know, I was things. Some of the elders began to tell me getting a call about doing a recording. That‘s about the fact that they were agitating, and when we come together about the recording. they had gone to the courthouse. They had a meeting in that Battleground Baptist Church in St. Bernard Parish. They went to the Gregory. Yeah. That‘s a Northwestern Folk- courthouse to get their rights to vote. Then it life recording that the Folklife Center here was de-segregation time in the sixties – ‘63, put out. It‘s called Hezekiah and the House- ‘64. They really felt, and some of the elders rockers. It was the seventies? told me this, that the whites wanted them out of that area so their kids would not be going Early: That was in ‘82. to school with the kids in Fazendeville. They were really independent. It was Gregory: ‘82. We still have some of those an independent settlement. They had their by the way. I think Shane probably could tell own grocery store. They had, of course, the you where they are. They‘re for sale. There church. They had the dance hall; they had they are. Sharon‘s got one. Sheila‘s got one the juke joint. They had the benevolent soci- back there. ety halls. All this was in that little strip of

86 land that you saw on the image there. They water. Beautiful copper flashing, ironwork, really . . . they were self-sufficient, basically. architecturally it‘s solid and beautiful hous- Some of them did work in the farms around. ing being destroyed. That‘s necessary Some worked on the dock; some worked at [Inaudible] .. Do you consider something the railroad camp. For the most part, they like [Inaudible] to Fazendeville location? had their own gardens and everything. They Look at Musicians Village, we know a lot were pretty self-sufficient. about both. In a sense I see a regulated space. When they began to agitate and to I would build another public housing that I organize in the church, that‘s when they got think is beautiful, but it came right on top of the word. They said that they‘d been hearing Storyville. that it might happen, but they really got the word in the sixties that they had to move. Jackson: Right. They fought it. A. P. Tureaud was one of their attorneys that fought it. Trying to fight Question: Here you have a space where it‘s Federal government and didn‘t have the the birthplace of jazz, and right on top of it wherewithal to do it. They just couldn‘t do you have regulated space. In some ways I it. feel like Musicians Village the threshold to I was listening at you talking about get in is very difficult for many, many musi- how much they were compensated for the cians I know. A lot of artists that have only land. Some of the homes were Creole cot- school teachers or have these certificates to tages, shotgun houses and stuff. They may have some other form of income, and they have cost during that time maybe twenty, don‘t want to get into their. Many of street thirty, thirty-five thousand. I think the largest musicians and others [Inaudible]. Once again, settlement was like $15,000. That compensa- it‘s sort of a regulated space. Do you think tion was not really to get another house built that there is something like this? in the Ninth Ward. For the most part, they joined together and helped each other to build Jackson: Do I think there‘s a kind of a gen- homes in the Ninth Ward. That‘s why they tler case of. . . . moved right into the Ninth Ward because they possibly could afford that land. They were homeowners. They weren‘t renting Question: Gentrification that‘s going on these homes. They were landowners. They there. wanted to be landowners again. That‘s why they just moved right across the line to the Jackson: Well, yeah, it is. I think getting it lower Ninth Ward. from the residents‘ perspective, it‘s like, Yeah, the political situation was one ―Well, I wanted to come home. So it‘s either of the main reasons why they moved – not this or I stay in Montana.‖ What can you say? just because the National Historical Park Heck, I look at the houses, too. Look at the wanted to expand the park. They were right lower Ninth Ward. Look at the houses that in the middle of government land, but it was Brad Pitt‘s putting up. What can you say – their land. totally, yeah, it‘s like a. . . . I had a name that I called it, something like ―back to the future Question: You talked about [Inaudible] gen- for the Ninth Ward.‖ The architects were try- erally and the destruction of public housing. ing to put a spin on the shotgun houses and FEMA was a really good example the Creole cottages, but it didn‘t work. If you [Inaudible] .. Home was not touched by the have a choice of taking this or staying where

87 you are, two or three thousand miles away. . . Gregory: We‘re way behind schedule, so we . What can you say? Who am I to be the need to let Hezekiah and Poochie do their set judge of how they‘re feeling about this? up. There are refreshments back there. I They‘ve definitely expressed themselves. To think we forgot to take a break. We can do get in a home back in New Orleans, what can that, and we‘ll come back and let them play a you say? Yeah, it is a form of gentrification. while. Then we‘ll break for lunch late if that‘s OK. I‘ll start these other guys this af- Gregory: We‘re way behind. ternoon.

Teal: Way behind.

88 Listening and Learning: The Blues

Hezekiah Early and Robert ―Lil‘ Poochie‖ Watson

L-R: Robert “Lil’ Poochie” Watson and Hezekiah Early

Blues and the Delta “Roots”

Hezekiah Early and Lil‘ Poochie (Robert Watson) represent one of the oldest lines of culture in the Delta Region. Rooted in Africa, surviving slavery, the aftermath of the Civil War and the New ―industrialized‖ South with Civil Rights struggles, Blues musicians continue to echo the change and continuity as well or better than any other people in the Delta.

This informance is based on the experiences of two blues players who have grown up in the tra- dition, seen it move from Natchez, Mississippi to Paris, France, to Germany and Italy. The ―honky tonks‖ and ―joints‖ of the Blues experience are diminished. The money and the jobs come and go, but the blues scene persists.

The Blues story of this symposium is that traditions live, and the young people listen, even hope to play. From amplifiers and television to CDs and tweeting, the mournful to joyful words of the Blues carry on.

89 90 SESSION IV

91 92 Session IV – People from the Hills, Rivers, & Swamps

Moderators: Dr. Shane Rasmussen, Dr. Susan Roach

Participants: Judith Bingham, Dale Bordelon, Dr. Ray Brassieur, Marcy Frantom, Dr. Pete Gregory

Shane Rasmussen: Howdy. We‘re hoping to have more people wan- der in as we get going. I‘m Shane Rasmussen, and this is the fourth L-R: Dr. Pete Gregory, Dale Bordelon, Dr. Ray Brassieur, Dr. Shane Rasmussen, session of the Judith Bingham, Dr. Susan Roach, Marcy Frantom, and Max Turner Delta 2010 Symposium. This is the session mile from the Mississippi River in 1937, and ―People from the Hills, Rivers, & Swamps.‖ I it was in flood. The first story that my family wanted to just start out by asking each of you told about me was that I was born when the if you could sum up, in a sense, when you river flooded. My father was riding the levee think of the Delta, if you can think of one im- that night on horseback trying to make sure age. It doesn‘t have to be the iconic imagery, the river wasn‘t going to break the levee. My just the image that comes to mind. Before earliest memories of the Delta are about the doing so, if you could just briefly introduce water. My grandfather was a fisherman. I yourself. Tell us what that image is and spent my life on and off the water. This is maybe why it‘s important to you. I‘d like to the driest place I have ever lived, the further- start with Dr. Gregory in doing so. We‘ll est away from water. Cane River is right also mention that when we get done with there. It‘s a piddling little river for the Delta. that, we‘ll just sort of go from there and, Dale? hopefully, we‘ll have a conversation. I want to ask the folks in the audience to please feel Dale Bordelon: My name is Dale Bordelon. free with your questions. We‘re a small I‘m from Avoyelles Parish. They‘ve got a big enough group that I think this could be a con- Delta [plantation] not too far from where I versation. We don‘t have to save those for was raised. It‘s just wide open country. the end. I‘m going to not give an image be- That‘s what I remember. The time I was cause I‘m not from the Delta. I‘m from Ore- growing up, just dozers and clearing. That gon. We‘ll just skip me. Dr. Gregory? was going on in my youthful years. Now you pass by, it‘s just open farmland as far as you Pete Gregory: You want me to start? can see. A bunch of good stories about how big the trees were and how good the hunting Rasmussen: Yeah. was before they did all that. It‘s a big regret. The old people regret it. It kind of took their Gregory: Oh. It‘s water. I grew up. . . I was part away from them for just for farm land. I born. . . . I started yesterday with saying I be- kind of hate to see it just the stories they long there. I was born there. I was born a have, it kind of bothers me, too. Most of that

93 land now is not wasn‘t, most of it wasn‘t fit honored to do this because this is my, I could for farming, a lot of it. Now, they are trying say my nine-to-five job, but this is really my to put it back in trees, so maybe one day it heart — the Delta music. The Delta Music will be like it was again down the road like it Museum is about collecting, preserving, and should have stayed. exhibiting the Delta music starting in Mem- phis, Tennessee and on down the Mississippi Ray Brassieur: I‘m Ray Brassieur. I teach at River Delta through New Orleans. I guess if UL in Lafayette. My own family and per- I answered Dr. Shane‘s question about the sonal experiences, in my younger days, I‘m image of something in the Delta, I‘d have to more of a prairie person. The idea of Delta go with Haney‘s Big House. I asked Heze- really is not thoroughly through me from kiah Early, when he was talking about where birth or anything like that. I did have a he‘d performed, if he had performed at chance and many chances to immerse into Haney‘s Big House. Haney‘s actually origi- that water world that Dr. Gregory is talking nated in the thirties and forties right on into about through the lives and work of people I the fifties. In the early sixties, it burned. It had a chance to meet and work with. A lot. I was a very popular African American night developed an idea of what the Delta was. club in Ferriday. People like B. B. King, Fats Then I‘m jaded because I had a chance to go Domino, and all those ―earlier musicians‖ to Missouri. They confused me up there be- came through Ferriday and played music and cause they think that‘s the Delta up there. then became famous. That‘s where the three They talk about Memphis and the Peabody cousins, Jerry Lee Lewis, Mickey Gilley, and Hotel and all that. That didn‘t seem Delta to Jimmy Swaggart, who Dr. Pete has asked me me. Geographically, yes, it is. Now, I have to talk about, sneaked in to hear Delta music. this kind of understanding of the Delta that‘s Haney‘s Big House is the place where Delta expanded the whole bottom land of the Mis- music was being spread abroad in the Delta. sissippi there below Memphis. At any rate, It was very popular in its day. like I said, my idea is somewhat jaded right One little story I‘ll give you. Our now. I still, though, see the Delta as some- clerk of court was on a plane going to Los thing from Marksville on down or some- Angeles one day, and he happened to sit by where like that. That‘s where I really think it B. B. King who is from over the Mississippi is. side of the Delta. B. B. asked him, ―Where Culturally, though, there are some are you from?‖ He said, ―Oh, I‘m from a lit- similarities up the river, all the way up tle town you‘ve probably never even heard of through Arkansas, and of course, Helena. I – Ferriday, Louisiana.‖ He said B. B. King know that all the way up to Memphis and the chuckled and said, ―Oh, yes. I know where Missouri boot heel and all of that. There are Ferriday is. When we couldn‘t play any- some similarities. The populations have where else, we could play at Haney‘s Big some similarities. Some of those are adapta- House.‖ That‘s my Delta image. tions to that environment, and some of them are poverty. Farming is part of it. Using the Susan Roach: I‘m Susan Roach. I‘m a folk- river is another part of it, and that bottom lorist at Louisiana Tech and former Regional land. I think it‘s a big, big area. Folklorist there for ten years. I grew up in Ruston which is in Lincoln Parish in the hill Judith Bingham: I‘m Judith Bingham, and country, the heart of the hill country – not my I‘m the director of the Delta Music Museum definition of the Delta although it is in our in Ferriday, from Dr. Pete‘s home place. I‘m definition that we are using for this confer-

94 ence, evidently. When I think of Delta im- cians in my life. I just love music. age, the big wide open territory that you were talking about really terrified me the first time Rasmussen: Thank you everyone. I really I had to go do fieldwork in the Delta, and not appreciate that. I was talking to Ray earlier. a tree in site. Where are the hills? Where are He was telling me about his sense of the the curves in the road? Stuff just felt exposed Delta right now and how there‘s a sense of and open. I got kind of scared. When I really continuity and how that is very positive at the focus on the thing that, I guess for me, sym- same time that there are these changes going bolized the Delta after I got to know the on. He sees those changes as a kind of distor- Delta a little better – after my first big, initial tion – a maybe a kind of disruption of Delta fieldwork in Lake Providence in the late culture. I wonder if he could just talk about eighties – is an image that actually got put on that for a second. If anyone has anything to the front of this Smithsonian catalog [1997 say after his remarks, that would be great. Smithsonian Festival of American Folklife Program Book]. It‘s an image of Lake Provi- Brassieur: Or during them. First of all, I dence baptism, outdoor baptism. That one would like to say that those of us that work in event in hot August, when it was so hot part certain fields, sometimes we‘re called upon of my belt melted off of me, that whole thing to give the point of view or represent a cer- just comes back and gushes over me – the tain community as though we know what that water, the people, and the experience just community is like. I think we ought to be really immerses me. Somebody used that hesitant. I know I am much more hesitant term and that to me is that formative image. right now at this moment than I have been before in trying to say that I am the voice of Marcy Frantom: My name is Marcy Fran- any particular community because there are tom, and I was a student of Dr. Gregory‘s and some things that I understand about what‘s Dr. Hatley. When I was a child, my father, going and some things I don‘t. who was from Natchitoches Parish, would There are some continuities. I at- take me to the stores, and he would want me tended one last night. It was a meeting of the to collect weather signs from the old men. I Cajun French Music Association award cere- guess when I think of our culture, I think of it mony. It was a mob. When you think of that as being very giving and loving, and how we genre of music, it‘s alive and well. It‘s draw- people unstintingly help each other. ing a lot of people. A lot of the people that go to it, some are musicians, some are danc- Max Turner: Hi, I‘m Max Turner. Me and ers, some just liked it – the scene. They have Marcy do a lot of research together. In fact, their little kids, and they bring them up in the we do everything together. We work to- front and make them talk French, give them gether; we do research together; we play mu- an award for it. The kind of thing that sup- sic together. In my life, I got to play with a ports and encourages continuity is going on. lot people from the Delta. I played with them It‘s going on in scales that I‘ve never seen. in Austin and San Antonio and places like We are filling up rooms with that kind of that when I lived there. I got to play with thing. That could be a positive if you‘re Muddy Waters at Antoine‘s in Austin and looking toward continuity. There are many Lightning Hopkins at the Armadillo in Aus- other cases. tin. I opened for B. B. King in San Antonio Next month, in September, there will at the Eastwood Country Club. I‘ve had lot of be the annual reunion of the Bayou Chene fun playing with a lot of the old Delta musi- settlement. Bayou Chene was a community

95 located right in the middle of the Atchafalaya occupations? Are they going to recede? Are Swamp. Couldn‘t go to it by car, only boats they going to move? We already knew that went to it. It was there for many, many was going to happen. At the same time, the years, centuries. By the 1950s, it was aban- people who are there quite often they say, ―I doned. People had to leave the basin. That‘s will never leave. I‘ll be here. My children another theme, by the way – that displace- will be fishermen. My grandchildren will be ment of people or curbing the Atchafalaya fishermen.‖ They have that fixed in their Swamp. For the last some, I guess close to minds at the time that the sea is coming in, thirty years or so, they‘ve been having this and the water is rising. Now the water has oil reunion of Bayou Chene people. It happens in it. in September near Morgan City. Now, you You have stories right now. I‘ve have people coming to that reunion who‘ve heard stories now from fishermen and from never seen Bayou Chene. There are other people along the coast about the oil has generations of people who have never seen it, stopped flowing. They go out. The fish are but they‘re coming and it seems to get bigger still there. The shrimp are fine. They‘re and bigger. That‘s a kind of continuity. We catching shrimp. The scientists say there‘s have to understand that in context. It‘s inter- nothing wrong with them. They have friends esting. There‘s a lot of that going on, I think. who are skimmers that go out looking for oil; Attempts to sometimes regain, sometimes they can‘t find oil. The problem is over with. maintain traditional patterns. We see that a Let‘s go back to work. Everything is fine. Is lot. that distortion, or is that reality? I don‘t At the same time, there‘s this thing know. Time will tell. that I don‘t understand. It‘s very, very com- One thing that happened in south plicated. The only word I can use to describe Louisiana for quite a long, long time is this it is distortion. There is distortion, I believe marriage between petroleum and our tradi- in my mind. There is distortion in the minds tional occupations so that some eighty years of people who are tradition bearers and who ago, we have a Shrimp and Petroleum Festi- are regular folks and the people that live in val that was started in Morgan City. Since communities. Just for example, some of it‘s then, everyone thought that OK that‘s a per- political. I don‘t know if we are supposed to fect marriage. We‘ll have work; we‘ll have talk about politics in a place like this, but the money; we‘ll have shrimp; we‘ll have a festi- media is very effective. There are some pow- val. We‘ll have a good time, and everything ers that help to mold people‘s opinions and will be fine. That image is carrying forth. minds and everything. Today, there is a People still want to cling to that so much so strong political bias down south. If there‘s a that it seems like all of south Louisiana is a problem with the fishing industry or with the cheerleader for big oil. We don‘t want a oil industry, or with jobs, or with whatever it moratorium. These are political things. How is, Obama did it! OK. What does that have to does that work with tradition? We don‘t do with folk patterns? Now we are facing an know. That‘s part of the distortion that I see. unknown face. People have stories and ideas about We have a known face, by the way, their world, their life, the way they make a along the coast. For example, we knew that living and their families that seem to be in the coast is receding. Populations are going contradiction to what will happen, is happen- to have to do something. They‘ll have to de- ing. People are leaving. There is a displace- cide. Are they going to stay in their tradi- ment of folks away from the coast. Some of tional area? Are they going to do their same them are Indian communities. Some are Ca-

96 jun fishing communities. They are leaving. plantations came back. Black people were One big voice says, ―Oh, everything is fine. used to clear the land and then later as share- Everything is the same.‖ A strong voice. The croppers to farm the land. That lasted up un- other side is the families are being broken up. til about World War II. The farming began to I am incapable of really making a great state- sort of recede. Some areas hardly ever got ment about the status of people because I find touched. There were virgin forests in north- myself immersed in this same kind of dis- east Louisiana, for example in the Tensas Ba- torted attempt to understand what‘s going on sin, that only ten years ago were cut off. The down there. Yeah, there‘s some continuity, lumber companies cut them off before they but change and displacement is going to be a became Federal lands, Federal protected for- big part of it. Part of it‘s economic. I don‘t ests. They clear-cut the forest, gave it to the know if y‘all were interested in any of all of Federal government, and said, ―Here. Make that kind of stuff. We can make many exam- us a new forest.‖ We should live a thousand ples of continuity, but, gosh, we can make so years and see. many examples of change that‘s happened. I talked to loggers who remembered logging in Concordia Parish in the 1950s. Rasmussen: So it‘s a kind of disconcerting They talk about red oak trees 150 feet tall sense of flux going on right now throughout that had never been touched. The logger ac- the cultures? tually wept because he cut the last ones. He said, ―I told the guys when I felled those Gregory: In the upper Delta, if we stay in trees, I‘d never live to see anything like them Louisiana, the upper Delta is northeast Lou- again.‖ Well, of course not. They‘d been isiana, north of Marksville, on up into the growing a thousand years. That landscape Mississippi portion and the Arkansas portion that people who grew up there like Dale, in the upper Delta, beginning in the late six- never saw. I only saw the tail end of it. I ties, the 1960s, the biggest changes came only saw what was left. with mass land clearing. The landscape that By the 1970s, when I left the Delta Dale described, that he‘s seen all his life was and kind of moved up here into this part of not there. The whole Delta was a giant wet- the Delta, the bean farmers were just begin- land forest, a hardwood forest. It was one of ning to come south. They cleared the boot the last areas of North America to develop. In heel of Missouri. Bulldozers were just get- 1820, people began moving into the Delta ting cheap and popular. They land-leveled and opened up the first plantations. Planta- that land, took all the little ridges and swales tions in the Delta are not an ancient colonial out of it, and they drained it. They moved device. They didn‘t start until very late. That south. They moved down into Catahoula, all got sort of truncated by the Civil War. Concordia, Tensas, clearing those forests, The plantations slowed down. That what was left of the second growth forest. brought a lot of change in the status of people The plantations were marginal to all of that. – white and black, Indians and others. Then They were right along the rivers. The back again, just about the time prior to, I‘d say swamps, the big land, it all got cleared. Lots World War I, people began clearing land in and lots of it got land-leveled. That whole the Delta for timber. Hardwood forests, cy- landscape is gone. If you are old enough to press, wetland oaks of one kind or another remember even parts of it, people can‘t relate brought in a whole new industry, brought in to that. People Dale‘s age never saw it. the railroads in a major kind of way to take We were doing an archaeological sur- that timber out. As the land was cleared, vey in Catahoula and Rapides Parishes for

97 the state. I had a young fellow working for they try. Oil came in there. The lumber had me. He told one of the elders we were talk- taken a big swatch of it out already. The bean ing to one afternoon how beautiful Catahoula fields, lining up bulldozers five miles across Lake was. Catahoula Lake anchors the Mis- and driving those bulldozers twenty-four sissippi flyway. Almost all the ducks in hours a day until you clear swatches of land, North America pass through that lake going a 150,000 acres of land, no trees, nothing on to the gulf. It is a beautiful place. Much of it it. You can walk out there today and walk now is in the Federal goose preserve. It‘s for seven, eight, ten, fifteen miles and not get been much abused. It was pretty. It was a bitten by a mosquito. They‘re in Louisiana. pretty afternoon. He said, ―Oh what a won- That land‘s changed forever. That part of the derful place this is.‖ An older gentleman Delta will never be, I think, the same. Some there in his eighties looked over at him and of it might even be a dangerous place to go. smiled and said, ―But son, you only saw the Yet, people persist. People still are tail of the deer as it jumped over the fence.‖ commercial fishermen wherever they kind It‘s quite true. find a place to put a net, put a line. People There‘s that sense of loss in the Delta. are still trying to cling to little communities It‘s very hard to continue where your ances- that have been there for a couple of hundred tors were. I went to the bayou where I pulled years and all this stuff happened around. hoop nets with friends of mine in the 1950s There‘s a TV commercial about the guy who where the water was ten and twelve feet says, ―People say, ‗Why did you move down deep. It was dry and planted with soy beans. here on this land down on the coast?‘ Well, I didn‘t know where I was. It‘s like I‘d fallen the land moved away from us.‖ The same off on Mars. We stood there and said, thing happened to people in the upper Delta. ―Looking at the map, this is Big Bayou, but The land moved away from people. People Big Bayou is fading now.‖ hung on, hang on pretty desperately some- The bean farmers are gone. I can‘t times to what they have. Things changed, pick on the bean farmers. They came down drastically changed for them. from Missouri and had no idea what this We talked yesterday, Christine Norris, country was like. Within the first three years and Cheryl and I about fighting the dumpers, they were there, they lost three crops in suc- the waste from Katrina. They had targeted cession. They had a flood in 1970 that the upper Delta because there were no people flooded all their new houses they‘d built, there. They were going to dump all of this washed away all their equipment. They all waste there. Well, there were Indians there. went back to Missouri broke. The big corpo- There were commercial fishing villages there rate farms who bought up the land and within a mile, two miles. They were dumping brought in the farmers are all trying to sell on a large cemetery that the Indians knew had the land, trying to sell the land especially to been there for a thousand years. It took a lot the Federal government, to the state govern- of efforts for us to stop that. A lot of us went ment. To any of you guys who want to buy it, to stop that. Not a lot of us, but the local peo- I suspect you can buy it. Who knows, I‘m ple went to stop that, and the tribes went to sort of like Ray now, who knows what hap- stop that. The parish government didn‘t want pens next? to stop that. The state government got stalled Since we‘ve much abused that land, because they were worried about the Indian we‘ve drilled for oil on it, and that was reaction to it, I think, more than maybe any- messy. The oil industry has never been envi- thing else. We did stop that. On the other ronmentally friendly, no matter how hard hand, [we] had to turn around and do the

98 same thing out at Lakeside in east New Or- Rasmussen: That gives a good transition to leans next door to the Vietnamese Village. Judith. Judith, you brought up several times They had to stop the dumping. They just got when we‘ve been talking about why Delta that done a couple of months ago. music is so popular with Delta people. If you live in the Delta, you‘re used to change, I think. You grow up with change. Bingham: I‘m often asked the question at the You‘re used to the environment. It changes. museum, ―Why do you think music was so I‘m sort of like Ray says, I don‘t know where popular in the Delta?‖ Of course, this is my we go. There is a sense of indefiniteness, opinion. When you look at the customs and Shane, that the ones who‘ve been there all the culture, of course, first it was American our lives feel. It‘s different. We‘d do what we Indians, the Native Americans, and then we could to put it back, but I won‘t see those entered into the plantation life era with the trees I saw when I was ten, twelve years old. African Americans who had the spirituals and I won‘t see those nets full of fish ever again really came into the blues where they decided in my lifetime. I won‘t see cotton growing in to sing the blues and then get away from the Delta. Plantations gone, the gins are some of the spiritual aspects of songs to talk gone. The big houses may be there because about taboo subjects with jazz. It‘s just a big we preserve them with the National Park Ser- evolution of music. We came into the blues vice or some other person to help us. The and then we went into jazz and ragtime. We economy‘s gone. There are less than 1,000 could just go on and on how it evolves. I like acres of cotton in Natchitoches Parish this to think that in that time frame of culture and year. It looks like Kansas in August. Corn population in the Delta, there was no televi- makes fuel – not cotton. Dr. Webb was remi- sion, no computers, and no modern technol- niscing yesterday about miles and miles, vast ogy. The thing to do when you quit working expanses of flat land covered with cotton. He for daily survival, which was every day, you said, ―Of course, it‘s not there now.‖ That‘s came in from your work whether it was in the a good description of the upper Delta. It‘s plantation life, farming or maybe any type of not there. We all saw that growing up. I re- industry such as saw mills, or the railroad, the member cotton. I remember fish. I remember thing you had for entertainment was music. lots of things. Whether you were gathering at your front It‘s sometimes a lonely place. porch enjoying music or whether you were There‘s an old blues thing that comes up if going to where the community had gathered, you grew up close to Haney‘s Big House. it was the type of entertainment for that day You‘ve got all these blues metaphors in your and era. I think that‘s why it was so popular. head. There‘s this train that goes across the There wasn‘t much else to do for entertain- Delta. Freight trains run across the Delta. In ment and relaxation. the old days, when they were steam, they Also, I‘d like to talk a little bit about blew the whistles. You could hear them for the cousins. I‘ll ask you a question. When I miles and miles and miles. There are country say, ―Do you know the native famous cousins songs and blues songs about the long, lone- in Ferriday‖ how many can raise your hands? some sound. That long, lonesome sound is in the Delta, long after the trains are gone. It‘s Question: How many? in people‘s heads. It‘s getting to be a very sad place. I think that‘s why there are so many Bingham: Three. good blues people. The Delta is a sad place for those who grew up there. Comment: I just have two. 99 Bingham: I get that many times. Some peo- of accidents. He had two wives to die, one ple don‘t know that Jimmy Swaggert is one from overdose and one from a swimming of the famous cousins. It‘s Jerry Lee Lewis, pool drowning. When you think about the Mickey Gilley, and Jimmy Swaggert. Basi- talent in the man, he has great talent. cally, I guess you could say, and I‘m sure Dr. A story that we tell at the museum is Pete knows more about this because, hey, this Jerry and his dad, Mr. Elmo Lewis, who Dr. is his family. Pete‘s called uncle [his mother‘s first cousin], went to Nashville and Memphis to attain star- Gregory: My cousins. dom . When he arrived in Nashville, they said, ―Son, you just need to go home and Bingham: They‘re his cousins from the Lewis learn to play the guitar.‖ He said, ―I‘m sorry. side. Two families, three basically came in to My instrument is the piano, thank you.‖ That these three people. That was the Lewises, the was his attitude. He went back to Memphis Herron, and the Gilleys. Mickey Gilley is a and went to Sun Studio. Sam Philips at Sun Gilley [pronounced with a soft ―g‖]. We all Studio produced the recordings of Elvis. Sam knew him, didn‘t we, Pete, as Mickey Gilley was out of town, but Jerry recorded at Sun because that was his surname. I will really and told them to play it for ―Mr. Phillips‖ confuse you, OK? We will look at Jerry Lee upon his return. When Sam came back, the Lewis and part of his genealogy. His daddy rest is history. He started from there. He was a Lewis; his mother was a Herron. started receiving both national and interna- Jimmy Swaggart‘s mother was a Herron. tional fame. He was really going places. He They were first cousins on the moms‘ side. married his fifteen year old second cousin. I‘m not going to say what my husband does – Now, in these modern times it probably first removed, second removed, because I wouldn‘t be anything thought of this type of don‘t do that. On the Lewis side, Jerry‘s union, but not during that particular era. [It daddy‘s sister married Jimmy‘s granddaddy. was not uncommon in his grandparents‘ gen- The first thing you want to say is that‘s a dif- eration.] A lot of his fame went ―down hill‖ ferent generation. Well, I don‘t care. That‘s from that fact. what happened. Jerry and Jimmy were sec- Jerry Lee had a friend that he played ond cousins. Then Jerry‘s daddy had another music with at the age of fourteen. It was Pee- sister that married Mickey Gilley‘s daddy. wee Whittaker, an old original blues musi- Mickey was first cousins to Jerry, and he was cian. The Folklife Center here at Northwest- second cousins again to Jimmy. They all ern U has some of Peewee‘s memorabilia in grew up in Ferriday. One of them turned out their collection. He is also one of our Hall of to be a preacher. One of them turned out to Fame inductees at the Delta Music Museum. be a country singer that had seventeen hit At the age of fourteen, Jerry Lee played on songs. Seventeen of them reached the top the other side of the river in Natchez Under ten. Of course, one cousin turned out to be the Hill. He played with Peewee in an old ―The Killer,‖ Jerry Lee Lewis. club called the Blue Cat Club. Jerry Lee said Jerry lived by his own standards, by that the club was really rough. I often won- his own rules. I sometimes think that if Jerry der how a fourteen-year-old got in a club. I would have played musical politics, he guess it was because it was allowed back in probably would have been the ―king‖ instead the forties. People ask us all the time, where of Elvis. He‘s the only one of the three that Jerry Lee lives. He lives in Nesbitt, Missis- has been married six times. Jerry‘s had a lot sippi near I-55. He‘s not in really good of tragedy in his life. He had two sons to die health but he still performs.

100 Mickey left Ferriday when he was just a little north between Monroe and Ferri- around seventeen years old, went to Houston, day. Jimmy became a minister. His son Texas, married, and worked with his daddy- Donny is now a minister, and his son Gabriel in-law in the construction business. [He] had is a minister. It‘s kind of a family thing. three children. Jerry Lee came to Houston They still have a large church in Baton for a concert, and said, ―Boy, look at all the Rouge. money I made.‖ Mickey decided that if Jerry One story when I‘m talking about the Lee could do it, so could he. From there he cousins I want to leave you with. You know went onto fame. In fact, just to throw a little how Jerry Lee, he shakes his head real hard, commercial in here, Mickey is a really, a and his hair comes down in his face. He sponsor of our museum. He loves to come might stand on the piano stool. He probably back and perform shows for the Friends of will kick it before he leaves and tear the leg the Delta Music Museum Foundation. He‘s off of it. He‘s real demonstrative when he coming September the 12th. He‘s going to plays. How that got started, the story is that perform two shows for the benefit of the mu- he was opening in New York for Johnny seum, a 2:00 and a 6:00 show. If you want to Cash and Carl Perkins. He‘d been traveling drive to Concordia Parish, spend the night, with them a little. He just would sit down at and have a good time in the Delta, well, come the piano, and he‘d sing his songs. One night, on down. Johnny Cash and Carl asked him, ―Jerry, can Then, of course, we have the other you do something besides just sit there? cousin, Jimmy Lee Swaggart. I don‘t know Can‘t you be a little demonstrative?‖ He said, why. Maybe Dr. Pete can tell us. Jimmy‘s ―Oh, yeah. I could play it sitting on this name was Jimmy Lee Swaggart. Jerry Lee‘s bench. I could play it standing up. I can play name was Jerry Lee Lewis. Mickey‘s name it on the floor.‖ They said from then on was Mickey Leroy Gilley. Do you know the when he opened for them that night in New answer to that, Dr. Pete? York. He got up there, and he got with it. He was slinging his hair and doing all kinds of Gregory: I do. Yeah. Their grandfather was things. By the time it got time for Johnny named Lee, Lee Lewis. There‘s a folk tale Cash and Carl Perkins to get on the stage, about that over around Ferriday that he was they looked at each other because the crowd named after his uncle Lee Calhoun, who was was just gone wild. It was like they didn‘t very wealthy. He had a lot of land, some- care if they came on or not. Johnny looked what of a character in and of himself. People over at Carl, and he said, ―You, know, we always said he was named after Uncle Lee, may have done the wrong thing.‖ Mr. Lee Calhoun, but he was actually named If you ever see him in any of the casi- after his grandfather, I think, Mr. Lee Lewis. nos because he still goes to some of the casi- They had two possibilities. I can narrow it nos, or if you see him, just watch his hair and down. You have to kind of pay your money think about it. He learned how to move. and take your choice. I‘m pretty sure, though, Judith, he was named after his grand- Gregory: He‘s the first original hair protes- father. tor. He got a Tony when we were in high school. He went out and got his hair all Bingham: Of course, Reverend Swaggart curled and came to school. He got kicked out was their cousin. During early teenage years, of school for it. That was before the seven- his dad was a minister. They moved to a lit- ties. Some of you guys remember the hair tle place called Wisner, Louisiana which is conflicts in the seventies. Jerry Lee came to

101 school with a Toni. I‘m still kind of shocked You hear that story over and over and by it after all these years. Yeah, he had to be over. I‘ve heard it three or four times here different. He liked to shake his hair. during the session about somebody moves, A little sort of postlude to Judith‘s and then somebody goes and takes care of story: All those families came from Richland somebody else until they get on their feet. and Franklin Parishes to Ferriday. Actually, Populations do that. Families are very strong they moved to what we called the Black in the Delta. There are still lots of Gilleys up River section in Concordia Parish. They there, a few Lewises up there. The Hampton were all sharecroppers, sharecroppers on the side of the family, which is my connection to Macon Ridge, the big high ridge that goes up them, most of them are gone. There are through the Delta. Sharecropping got very probably lots more Gilleys than there are bad up there, and so they all moved down the anybody else. river. My grandfather moved first. Jerry Lee and Mickey and Jimmy Lee‘s grandmother‘s Bingham: Just a couple of more things, and family moved after him. All her children I‘ll try to be quiet and let everybody else talk. moved. Within a ten year period, that whole I started out talking about the evolution of extended family moved south down into the music. I‘m sixty-five now, and my dad Delta. Sharecropping wasn‘t any good on bought me a piano when I was about twelve. Black River either, so eventually they all My mom says that that‘s all I did. Before I‘d moved to town. get ready for school, I‘d sit down at the pi- We started out, many of us, on Third ano, and I‘d play until the bus came. When I Street, which is right across the street from came home, I would start again. I‘d play. I the museum in Ferriday, in low-rent housing learned to play by ear. At that time in our that was built originally for railroad workers. family‘s life, we didn‘t really have financial Gradually we all moved away from Third assistance for music lessons. I learned to Street. Moving away from Third Street was a play by ear. For years now, I‘ve played the pretty good idea. It was a pretty rough little organ in church. neighborhood. The Herrons lived there. I‘ve even watched gospel music Mickey Gilley‘s mother and father lived in evolve. When I first started playing, it was the same double shotgun house with my the hymnals only. Then we went into like a grandfather, my grandmother, my father, my little mixed country gospel. I came into that mother, and me. In Mickey‘s side of the pretty good. I don‘t know how many of you house, it was his momma, his daddy, his sis- are musicians, but if there are any young mu- ter and his brother. We were talking yester- sicians here, I‘ve got a message for you. day about what do the kids remember from Now, gospel music has evolved almost in a the past. There was no indoor plumbing. We lot of praise and worship type of music. had one washtub on our side of the house for When I learned to play by ear. . . . For in- all the kids. stance, when you‘re in a C chord, you have a People lived on Third Street until they C, an F, a G, sometimes a D. You just had could get jobs. They worked in the mills. assistance when you listened and you heard They worked in small industries. Many of it. Now, when I play in C on the new songs, them went off and started little stores or I‘m going to E-flats and A-flats and B- started restaurants, first one little business or minors. The only way I can do it is when another. We didn‘t go back to sharecropping. they write out the chord progression on my None of us wanted to do that. The families music, on the song. I‘m almost lost now. If all moved together. you are a young musician, just hang in there

102 because time will come with the music, if have been discussing. We want to see if we you don‘t stay up with it, it will evolve and can‘t have some, in the summer, have some go off and leave you like it has me. classes. Maybe Hezekiah Early that was here The other thing is that the Delta Mu- talking about building his reed instrument. sic Museum is now on the Mississippi Blues Children in our area may want to do this. I Trail. We have a Blues Trail marker in our think that is part of preserving a culture and front lawn. We just got that this summer. part of the music. The Mississippi Commission has received a new grant. They initially put up, I don‘t Rasmussen: I like what you said about cul- know how many, in the state of Mississippi tural evolution and how that‘s affecting mu- along the Delta, the Mississippi Blues Trail. sic over time. I was talking to Max and They got another grant this past year to put Marcy, and they were talking about, what three or four more up out of Mississippi. We was it you described it, kind of a renewed were chosen as one of the places to have one. sense of culture conservatism that you‘ve New Orleans, I think, was one. New York seen and how that‘s affecting what‘s going was one. Somewhere, I don‘t know if it was on. St. Louis or Chicago, I believe the other one. This summer we started a Soul Survivor Fes- Frantom: Well, it just seems like that a lot of tival in our town. We had blues music, and what happens is through informal music we had the dedication of the Mississippi jams. People meet each other, and they play Blues Trail marker. What‘s going on in Fer- with each other. It seems like people are, be- riday right now is to make Ferriday a musical cause of conservatism, people are drawing destination. back, I guess into their own groups. You see We have a guy by the name of a lot more, I think, of the separation between Tommy Pope who was in the Clarksdale re- the practice of secular and religious music. vival to keep blues going. He‘s a native of I‘ve heard some of the old masters are not Vidalia. He moved to Nashville, and then playing anymore. A fiddle player was telling back to Clarksdale. He‘s an entrepreneur me this, Buzz, he‘s going to be here later, that there at one of the bed and breakfasts. He‘s some of his friends don‘t play anymore be- come back home, and he‘s really trying to set cause it‘s consider to be bad to play the fid- up a lot of different things to give us some, dle. It‘s a devil‘s instrument. You‘ve got the maybe a couple more of small museums, sort of thing that‘s going on with that. With really do some things to preserve the blues bluegrass itself, of course, there‘s been a split and some Delta music. I think this is a good off of people who only want to play Celtic thing. We‘re really proud of it. The state music. The bluegrass purists are kind of built us an art. . . . The state, I should say, funny because bluegrass came from country. took a 1926 theater that was right next to the Maida and I were talking about this – how museum. Pete went there many times to see bluegrass as a musical genre appeared in the the movies. They took that and had to tear it 1960s with Bill Monroe. It seems like secu- completely down which was sad, but it had lar bluegrass players don‘t want to play what some structural problems. The state had built they consider to be country music. us a $1,000,000 performing arts center there. There was a big flap at the monthly We named it the Arcade Theater. We have a Arcadia jam about somebody wanting to play lot of different performances going on and a Hank Williams song. I don‘t know. We‘re things that we are just trying to really get seeing this sort of thing going on. On the moving in that area with music. Susan and I other hand, I really think that the adversity,

103 the economic adversity, is going to, I hope, you. allow people to get involved back in their musical traditions, and perhaps we‘ll have Frantom: Another thing about the jams, too, more flowering from that. It seems like eve- is that all people need for a jam is a place. ryone‘s afraid and worried right now. There We were talking about that, too. It‘s like, are a lot of reasons to be that way. I‘m hop- you don‘t need to pay them – just give them a ing that it will be a good thing and that peo- place to play. That‘s something that the Park ple will go back to their roots, and that will could do, right, Laura, provide the place, set be a nice thing while Maida doesn‘t have any up rules. You can foster traditional music money to document folk music. We can all that way. be getting back involved with our own tradi- tions again. Rasmussen: That sounds great. Dale, I was Hezekiah Early talked about the blues talking to you earlier, and you were talking not being practiced much anymore because about how things sometimes in the culture the clubs and venues are gone. What I‘m are done out of necessity. For example, when talking about is that traditional music arts are you make a duck call, you make it out of not commercially viable to a large degree. cane because that what you had. Even though we talk about people wanting to buy blues recordings or performances, people Bordelon: Right. actually sent to buy it more in Europe. They don‘t necessarily want to buy it here. Be- cause there is no economic base for it, it‘s Rasmussen: Are there changes in the culture difficult to exist without financial support. now that are happening out of necessity, I‘m very interested in ways to combine tour- whether you see as positive or negative or ism and traditional music. We went to neither? What changes are you seeing now in Clarksdale, Mississippi, and we saw the blues where you‘re working and where you‘re liv- school. I‘m so interested in that as being a ing? way to, if the apprenticeship program was a good program, it is a way to sort of stretch Bordelon: It looks like everything that goes your dollars as far as having one master work on, to me, is just a big modern situation. with many students. You have maybe a per- Talking about the old cane calls? In the old centage will end up carrying on the tradition. days, that‘s all they had. It already had the It seemed to work pretty well in Clarksdale. hole in it. They just figured out to make It was pretty neat. something to call. They‘d stick it together. Now they make them out of plastic. They Turner: Yeah. The kids were really having a cost $150. Everything is about money, high good time. There were singers and players. price, and just junk. Decoys, duck calls, They had a little girl that was singing with guns, everywhere. You watch the hunting the boys playing electric guitar and drums. channels advertisements. Everything is just They were really good. The school had gui- blown out of proportion with this money is- tars for them. Each of the kids was supplied a sue. Therefore, the culture just leaves. guitar. The folk artist was just really, really There‘s nothing for the culture unless it good at what he did, teaching the children. should die or like me try to preserve it, live You can‘t jump on them for not playing the out the old times and keep it alive. The right chord and stuff like that because they younger generation, it looks like they don‘t are just the age where they might just quit on care for it too much. It‘s just a dying issue.

104 It‘s just a big change in the times I‘ve seen. with . . . . You hear the old hunting stories, and they just really sank in, just tried to be a Rasmussen: What‘s the best way. . . ? part of that. You know, you go to those big What‘s the most successful way to entice or fancy stores, and they‘ve got. . . . It looks educate young people about their heritage like now the big shots, the more a duck call and to draw them into that? costs, the more a gun costs, that‘s what they want. I do it for the culture reasons. I can Bordelon: Maybe have seminars and show blow my old cane call and use my old de- how the old people used to do. I think it‘s coys. I don‘t have to kill it. I don‘t have to kind of got to be in their blood. I come from kill anything. I just enjoy the whole outing. French people; therefore, I like the culture that I was involved in very, very much. I‘m Gregory: Can you call without a call? [Some trying to do this with my kids. They picked it call just with cupped hands.] up. They know the whole background, whole history, that I know. I think parents, the old Bordelon: No, sir. Not that way. [Laughter] people, you‘ve got to talk to them. That stems back to every culture. You‘ve got to be Brassieur: Does the duck recognize the dif- family oriented and like the old things and ference? just keep the tradition going. That looks like the generation of people now, it looks like Bordelon: No. I promise. [Laughter] You‘ve it‘s not going. It‘s going the opposite way. got a good hole. What it takes is a good hole. You‘ve got a good hole, the duck likes to go, Rasmussen: There‘s got to be a difference. I they will make you look like you are a good mean if I, I‘m not a hunter, but if I was, and caller. you gave me $150 and I went out and bought some duck call, there‘s going to be a differ- Gregory: There are people that can call with- ence in how I feel about that than the one that out. I‘ve seen them do it. I never learned to you would show me how to make myself. do that. I never could do it. Even if they might be qualitatively the same, as sad as I might admit, there‘s going to be a Bordelon: I‘ve seen several do a good job at difference because one, the tradition was it. passed on and became a part of my heritage, becoming a part of who I am and really who you are and who we are. If I just go buy it, Gregory: With no duck call at all. there‘s got to be a disconnect there some- where. Bordelon: I went to the store one time. I was looking at duck calls. I had an old man walk Bordelon: Yeah. There‘s no culture in- up to me and say, ―You know what the best volved when doing something like that. You calls they make?‖ I said, ―What‘s that?‖ He go walk into Belden‘s or Bass Pro, and said, ―About fifty pounds of they‘ve got aisles and aisles of camouflage corn.‖ [Laughter] and duck calls. When I grew up, I had World War II hunting jackets. That‘s what. Didn‘t Gregory: It works for deer, too. have camouflage jackets and coats -- my old daddy‘s jacket. My boys don‘t have all that Bordelon: It works for everything.

105 Brassieur: Did they ever use live decoys in They hired people. . . . They had organiza- your area? tions that hired people to market hunt. A case of shells was about $15.00 in the 1900s. Bordelon: Yes, sir. The gunner got about $.25 for a pair of mal- lards. The man that contracted the gunner, he Brassieur: What would they do? Tie the duck got $.50 like the French Market. They dis- up? tributed that to Baton Rouge, Alexandria, all over the state. At $.25 a pair, that‘s like $12.00 a day the gunner got for about two Bordelon: No. I‘ve got some old friends. months. They killed like 100 ducks a day. One of them is still living in his nineties. They had a quota to fill out. The most popu- They used those little English callers. An lar gun was the Winchester Model 97s. They English caller would hit about thirty or forty had five shots, and that was the first repeating notes without catching a break while your shotgun in that era besides the double barrel. flying mouth will hit about seven notes. In those days, ducks migrated, all of them He‘d put a drake in the front and put the hen migrated to the marsh. Now, they don‘t behind the blind where they couldn‘t see each make it this far anymore. They stop all the other. way from [Illinois]. It‘s a money industry.

There it goes again about money, leasing Brassieur: And they would talk. blinds and fields. People killed a 100 ducks a day with the quota at the turn of the century. Bordelon: That hen, little hen, especially There weren‘t as many people hunting then ducks flying. He would call. English callers as now. Now they‘ve got people everywhere call all the time. He said he [Inaudible] about you go. work. He had her trained. When he‘d kill his ducks, he‘d go, sometimes he‘d just throw Gregory: You‘ll see photographs of mounds her out [of] the blind. He had one trained. of ducks, six, seven feet high. They‘d kill She‘d pass and get with the bunch of ducks them by the hundreds. At Catahoula Lake, and bring them down. He told me this a they hunted at night. They‘d crawl out of the bunch of times. I don‘t know if it is true or marsh. The old people say, ―We would shoot not. He said when they‘d hit water, the little the feed.‖ So when the ducks were making hen would swim straight to his blind. She the feed call, they‘d put their gun barrels knew something. [Laughter] I don‘t know if over, not even see them, pull the trigger and that was true or not, but he‘s a pretty honest kill may fifty, twenty-five ducks at a shot. fellow. Those ducks all went to the market. Some of them went to New Orleans. Some of them Gregory: Did they tell you about the market went to Memphis. Some of them went to St. hunt? Louis. Ice came with the railroads. When ice came, you could export fish. You could Bordelon: Yes, sir. export game. It revolutionized the Delta. [Inaudible] Commercial ice changed the Gregory: Can you tell them a little bit about whole industry. what they told you about that? Brassieur: Fishing, too. Bordelon: At the turn of the century, south Louisiana, there was no money or anything. Gregory: Fishing especially. There really

106 was no commercial fishing much before com- folklorist for many years for a good portion mercial ice. The first ice came on the steam- of North Louisiana. What perspective has boats from the Great Lakes packed in saw- that given you of the Delta? dust. They‘d dig a hole and put it down in sawdust. Sometimes fishermen would have Roach: Would like me to give my presenta- to go in the wagon ten, fifteen, twenty miles tion? to get ice. They‘d load the wagons to take ice back. Ice got to be really plentiful. Every Rasmussen: If you‘d like, sure. Also, if you town in the Delta had an ice house. Ice could also talk about maybe ideas for further houses were tied to the commercial fishing. research, research that could be done in the The fish markets were always close to the ice future. houses. Judith, you know in Ferriday, Ward Luneau‘s fish market was up close to the ice Roach: I can do that. I have some pictures. house, up close to the railroad tracks. That I‘m not doing a real PowerPoint as General was a big link across there. That‘s true of [Stanley] McChrystal said in a New York every Delta town, an ice house. It affected a Times article. The army officers had all these lot of things, really complicated things. PowerPoints they were showing to the army. He said if they understood the PowerPoints, Bordelon: In the old days, they used to pack they would have finished the war. Can you them in big barrels with salt. hear me? I talked with Pete a couple of days Gregory: Salt. ago, and he was telling me what I was going to do. I said, ―Oh my God. That‘s not really Bordelon: You know, they wouldn‘t clean what I thought I was going to do. What peo- those ducks in the marsh hunting days. All ple are doing a presentation?‖ ―Joyce is doing they‘d do was gut them. Whenever they a PowerPoint.‖ ―Gosh, I really need to do a went buy ducks in the French market, they PowerPoint.‖ I don‘t like PowerPoints. I wanted to see the colors. They wanted to see like slide shows, so this is really a slide show. the ducks, how pretty they were and what I wanted to sort of go over, talking about hills kind they were mostly. – this is the hill country where I‘m from. We have swamps. We have man-made lakes and Gregory: That‘s an old rule with buying real lakes. We have lots of creeks and bay- commercial fish, too. You don‘t buy a cat- ous. We also come over to Monroe and fish with his tail cut off. Quality blue cats had Ouachita River and so forth. Really, I a forked tail. Mud cats don‘t. They have a wanted to talk to you about my involvement different taste, a different quality of fish. The in not only north central Louisiana folklife, fishermen know not to buy one with his tail but also in Delta folklife as Pete taught me cut. You guys look in the market at all these the Delta. This is a map. You can‘t see; I pond fish you buy now and see if any of them apologize. It‘s too small here. He did a are packaged with tails still attached. beautiful map of what he called our upper Delta parishes. I first saw this when I was working with Pete, which led me to want to Frantom: It‘s like don‘t buy coon with no do research in this area, that and incentive feet. It might be a cat. [Laughter] from the state folklife program. They gave us

a grant to do some work, and they asked me Rasmussen: Susan, you were the regional to be the folklorist in the summers to go and

107 kind of head some research there. with the Louisiana Folklife Program in De- The parishes we were considering cember ‘98 and continued on doing various were these: the hill parishes are north central research there, including a music gathering Louisiana – Lincoln, Jackson, Claiborne, Un- project where I interviewed musicians from ion, and Webster. A couple of those, Clai- all over the north central and Delta areas. My borne and Webster, are not on the map we‘re territory covered both of those areas. We had using for this conference really. The research a major research project with the first female projects that I was involved with are the cen- judge in Louisiana, Judge Alwine Ragland. tral Louisiana folklife project 1983-84 and Some of you knew Judge Ragland. Betty Joe the Delta Folklife project [1990-94]. For Harris helped to do some of the research with those of you who are not familiar with all that me. Judge Ragland died not too long ago. research, I wanted to let you know sort of the We have a huge composite of oral history of timeline for that. her experiences in the Tallulah area. She Phase 1, as we called it, was really knew so much about the people there, and the worked on by Pete, and he had done all of stories she told were fascinating. that preliminary work. He had publications I also worked with the Louisiana about the fishermen and so forth. I went out Quilt Documentation Project, part of my re- in mostly upper Lake Providence area and search with the Folklife Program. The then got Ben Sandmel to do some blues quilters in the Delta are prolific. We have work. We did a little bit more, and finally lots of sites that we‘ve documented quilts in did a summary of everything. I went over to across the Delta parishes. Also, what was the the Northwestern State University Folklife New Populations project. That was the state Center Archives and went through all of their Folklife project. We started to look at some material in 1994, I guess it was, and surveyed of the immigrant communities in the Delta. everything they had that could fit into that We really just started, so it‘s really just the upper Delta area. I compiled a list of all of tip of the iceberg. Also working with the that. It wasn‘t in a specific database at that Great Depression project put on by the time. It was in Microsoft Word files, and we Shreveport Regional Arts Council and the still have that. There were, literally, all of Northeast Louisiana Arts Council in Monroe. these people in all of this preliminary re- We interviewed two elders from each of search that we have tapes on, survey forms those parishes. I didn‘t do all the interviews. on, photographs of – those are not digital for- I did some, but there were several other peo- mat. Those are all hard copies; most have ple who helped, and I supervised that. So we not been transcribed; we‘re lucky to have a have all of that material in our library as well. tape index. Back to the Delta Field School. We In Phase 2, that really grew into had a number of people who did research in something more extensive. I‘ll tell you more that joining the team that we already had in- about that a little later. I‘ll tell you about an- cluding Dr. Hatley who should have been on other project. There was also another project this list. He wasn‘t really a field school stu- that was going on that interviewed a lot of dent. He was just out there doing some re- people in a lot of parishes called the Louisi- search out in the Delta. At any rate, these ana Folklife Storytelling Project. That was a were the researchers. [Delta Field School big addition to the research. Ellen Blue did a Student Researchers: Mary Bert Arnold, lot of work in the area for that. I also did Jonesville; Shirley Ayatey, Grambling; Mary some work with Lincoln Parish storyteller/ Ann Benard, Lafayette; Madelyn Boudreaux, painter Sarah Albritton. I started working Natchitoches; Gayle T. Brown, Lake Provi-

108 dence; Marilyn Campbell, Monterey; Eugene When I think ―Delta,‖ it‘s because of all the (Gene) Cloninger, Rayville; John L. documentation from Pete; I don‘t want to go Doughty, Natchitoches; Marcy Frantom, Nat- there because I don‘t want to take too long. I chitoches; Sylvia Frantom, Shreveport; Betty know we don‘t have too long until this is Jo Harris, Monroe; Joy Marshall, Monroe; over. In the day I had to think about all of this Stephanie Pierrotti, Natchitoches; Annie to prepare for this presentation, I was at home Staten, Monroe.] You can see that Marcy and I didn‘t have a lot pictures in my laptop, Frantom was part of the team and did some and I didn‘t want to have to go to the office wonderful research. The topics that they did to get anymore. I thought, let‘s look at some are too vast to go over. Each person did three of the people and genres that we did kind of to five, maybe more, interviews. I know An- cover in the Delta. I also included some of nie Statton did a ton of interviews. At any the hill country people because Pete said to rate, this resulted in a lot of presentation. We talk about the hills. I put some of that in. hoped we were getting our work out there. A These are kind of like place holders, and lot of people felt like it didn‘t get out, but a some are representative. They don‘t even lot of it has gotten out. include some of the stars that we uncovered, We did a folklife exhibit called in our research. Ike Hamilton, the guy in the ―Folklife in the Creole State‖ at the Masur center is certainly a star. He was one of the Museum in 1996 [in Monroe]. I picked pho- great storytellers and verbal arts people that tographs from all of the Delta Field School we documented. He‘s talking here with the and other research, and that went into the ex- famous Boo Ledoux, an old cowboy from the hibit. It was supposed to be a touring exhibit. Cajun prairies. Ray, you remember him well. I‘m trying to get the Masur Museum to get it out and see if it‘s ready to tour still. It was a Brassieur: From Eunice. black and white exhibition with interpretive panels developed for that. Monroe was host- Roach: They are with Bill Bailey from ing the Louisiana Folklife Festival for about Jonesboro down in Jackson, up in Jackson ten years. Last year it was going to be held— Parish. They were telling stories at the state 2005, but it was cancelled when Katrina hit Folklife Festival in ‘92. So that was right and we did not have enough hotels accommo- after Phase 1 before we even started Phase 2. dations for the artists. But at any rate, a lot of The painter that I worked with, Sarah Albrit- the Delta participants were presented in that ton here tells stories of North Central Louisi- festival over its ten years. ana and showed her paintings at a number of Some of the participants were fea- festivals and exhibits. I want you to think too tured in the New Orleans Jazz and Heritage about customs and beliefs because this was Festival. The Smithsonian Festival of Ameri- one of the main areas that I was totally taken can Folklife in 1997 featured Delta traditions. with. We will look at some of these like the I told you earlier about how the program Easter Rock in Winnsboro. Pete told me book featured Lake Providence on the cover. Easter Rock was gone, but fortunately, Annie The Smithsonian Festival is on the National Staten found it. Annie and I went that night in Mall. The map that they [the Smithsonian 1993 to the Original True Light Baptist Festival] used—I thought that you might Church with Hattie Addison; she is second want to look at that. It‘s pretty much the same behind the banner leader there, and she intro- parishes right here that we considered in the duced me to Easter Rock. I just wish you Upper Delta. They did go all the way down would have heard the music in that church. I and include the mouth of the Mississippi. felt the floor vibrate with the percussion of

109 people‘s feet. I just thought I‘d gone to Mr. Clonie Otwell. A lot of his traditions heaven or something. It was everything Pete probably passed on too. A few people still had talked about a thousand percent more. know how to plant by the signs. Sarah Al- There‘s Hattie lighting the candles as she pre- britton knows about that. She hasn‘t got pares the tables for the Easter Rock. We much but a little garden in her yard. People went back in subsequent years and docu- are still carrying on these foodways. Even mented it again. You can see the banner is though they don‘t grow their own vegetables, different this year. Of course, that formative they‘re going forth. The farm crafts, as far as experience for me in 1989 I believe it was, blacksmithing, making your own basic tools, when I was there on the banks of Lake Provi- I can‘t find anybody doing that. They‘re dence at an outdoor baptism which I had horseshoeing, making decorative ironworks, heard about my whole life from people in the and that sort of thing. White oak basketry, hill parishes. It had pretty much died out I‘m afraid, is very endangered. People like there, but there it was still alive in Lake Sidney Reed from Claiborne Parish passed Providence. Then, low and behold, it turns up on. He taught that craft to one other man in again in ‘96 on the Ouachita River. Those Webster Parish, an Anglo basket maker who churches in Monroe had told me that they go has not performed in public, but he knows back to the river called the ―Old Burying how to make beautiful baskets. People are Ground‖ periodically just to renew their rela- still gathering mayhaws in the backwater like tionship with the river and that experience Michael Greenfield; he was, by the way, there. I read in the paper just the other day working with Phil Robertson, a famous duck that some of the Anglo churches are going to call maker. We talked about duck calls ear- the Ouachita River to do a group baptism. So lier. That was part of that crew gathering the traditions change. Other groups take them mayhaws in the backwater. People are still up. They go back even though that Old growing their peas. Maybe a few you can Burying Ground right there where those, I find in the shells in the farmers market or believe those old storage silos are not there from the farmer directly if you‘re lucky anymore. They just took them all down in enough to know one. Most people have them Monroe. It‘s right in back of the Old Ware- shelled in these electric pea shellers, and buy house in Monroe. Lake Providence is still them already packaged up at the farmer‘s doing their baptism, last summer I went and market. They still take them home and freeze there it is. People say that it‘s dying out, but them or cook them in the traditional way. there was about forty people that got baptized Most of the food preservation like smoking that day. A bunch of the churches in Lake hams, I‘m afraid that‘s going out; a few com- Providence are doing that. It was such a dra- mercial people are doing their smoking; I matic event. It‘s so beautiful. The preaching don‘t see a lot of the old smokehouses left. and the songs were just exquisite. Other The gourd art has become decorative gourds; types of events that are still happening are people are buying gourds at farmers markets homecomings like at the Tulip Methodist and going home to carve them and decorate Church in north central Louisiana, where them with pine straw and things like that. I they used to have under the trees but now don‘t see clean-swept yards anymore, and I they have a pavilion or in an air conditioned don‘t really see that people like Ms. Annie building. This is in May. Rene Harris who made those yard brooms. Speaking of customs, people are still The crafting of cornshuck hats made by Le- growing their peas if they can. A lot of the ola Simmons in Union Parish, has probably smaller subsistence farmers are gone, such as disappeared with the passing of Mrs. Sim-

110 mons. Quilting, as I said, is very hardy. Peo- Roach: One of our Delta researchers did in- ple like Nova Mercer, who quilted on a terview someone from the Champlin Com- frame—those are being replaced by people pany. [Back to slide presentation] Here‘s who are getting their quilting done on quilt- Howard Henry with hoop nets; I think we‘ve ing machines. A lot of these quilters have got Vernie‘s hoop nets over there you can these giant machines that they drive like cars. look at. George Allen, a Jena Choctaw, and They make those quilts a lot faster. We‘re deer hide tanning was also documented; I beginning to see more communal kind of think he was in the first phase. The folk ar- quilts or maybe quilts made by individuals chitecture is really in North Central Louisi- that are being used for fund-raising purposes ana, more in the case of the dogtrot. That‘s a such as this quilt being used to raise money big area of research of mine. The Autrey for organizations, such as this quilt made for House is our oldest house, supposedly, in the Dubach Restoration and Beautification Lincoln Parish, and it has been restored. Peo- Organization. The tatting, I‘m afraid, is going ple pretty much stopped living in traditional fast. There are few older women who still dogtrots. If they do, they‘ve closed them in may know how to tat, but it‘s a disappearing so much, and you might not recognize it as a craft. Net making, I should let Pete tell us dogtrot. They have been considered folk about how hardy it is. Those of you who icons that need to be preserved. Dubach knew Vernie Gibson, who would be here to- community wanted a dogtrot to be their wel- day if he were still alive, was one of the best come center and they had me locate a dogtrot net makers and best talkers around, from the for them to move in. It‘s not done yet, it‘s Catahoula Lake. still under restoration. They had it set up enough so that they had picking on the porch Gregory: Those are Vernie‘s nets over there for their Chicken festival last year. They‘re on the table. doing that again on September 25th if you are interested when they will have some of the Roach: Okay, this is Vernie being presented bluegrass pickers come and jam. The bunga- in 1985 at the Festival of American Folklife, low houses which were typical of the 1920s where the whole state of Louisiana was fea- are fast going away. You hardly ever see tured. them unless they‘re falling down. The pyra- mid houses are going fast, too. The planta- tion churches in the Delta, which is another Gregory: That‘s all gone commercial. Net- big folk architecture type—a lot of them are making now, most fishnets are made by a not being used but maybe once a month or company in Jonesville. for special occasions, such as the Original

True Light Baptist Church. They may meet Roach: Champlin‘s? once a month for services or when people have homecoming and things. There are a lot Gregory: Yeah, Champlin‘s. They‘re chang- of older churches like that also in the hill par- ing out from fish nets to baseball catching ishes, where they just come back for home- nets. They make far more baseball nets than comings. People are working hard to try to they make fish nets. It‘s almost again like maintain them. Some of them have just been Vernie making nets, making his own with his taken down and replaced with brick churches. tools and stuff. It‘s almost a lost art in some Mrs. Martha Daniels in Clayton at the places. Springfield Baptist Church, who was one of the organizers of Easter Rock there, told me

111 that she didn‘t think they were going to be [Louisiana Division of the Arts Folklife ] ap- able to because they needed a wooden floor, prenticeship with Ben Robinson to learn to so I think maybe the loss of Easter Rock par- build fiddles and do fiddle repair and Ben has tially can be blamed on the new slab brick turned out to be a pretty good person at doing churches. Our grave houses, which Marcy that and has learned fiddling along the way. has done wonderful work on—I think those I wanted to talk a little bit about folk too are fast disappearing on the landscape. musicians, just briefly about old time country This one‘s about two miles from Louisiana music. Some of our old time fiddlers like Tech. Tex Grimsley have passed on, but there are a lot of fiddlers still left that are doing old- Frantom: There‘s a website that‘s called time, and a lot of them do bluegrass and old Ghost Walkers. John Waggoner is going all time, as far as I can tell from Fred Beavers over the southeast documenting grave houses. who plays both, along with western swing as There are some wonderful photos on that well. Homer Bailes is really an immigrant website. I don‘t know how many he‘s got from West Virginia, I believe, who is now in now, but it‘s just incredible if anybody‘s in- Ruston, is actually still playing some old time terested in that. music, jams with people and is still playing gospel music. Roach: On a tour in the Leesville area last year, we saw that huge cemetery. Turner: We have one playing with us today. Buzz Salard. Frantom: Pine Grove? What do they call it? Talbert Cemetery. Roach: You were talking about that religious thing. People like Homer play both and don‘t Roach: It‘s called Talbot Cemetery. see any problem with it, with the fiddling or with the religion. . . . Gregory: Talbot Cemetery in Sugartown. Frantom: Well, that‘s good. Roach: The most grave houses I‘ve ever seen in one place, but that area doesn‘t fall quite in Roach: I think [Inaudible]. our Delta definition. Frantom: Right. Gregory: Let the Parks Service help us out. Roach: He‘ll play gospel and turn around and Roach: I guess the martin houses will be here play an old time fiddle song. The Cox Fam- as long as we have mosquitoes. I have not ily supposedly noted as bluegrass, but actu- seen as many of those around. In the folk ally they call themselves old country re- toys, they‘re few and far between as far as I cently, in 2004 accepted a state award for have observed in the Delta. We have some lifetime achievement in the arts at the blue- really neat toymakers documented in the sto- grass club meeting in the Arcadia Depot. rytelling project. Walking stick carving, we They‘re still going pretty strong. They lost talked about that earlier. David Allen has Ms. Marie [Willard Cox‘s wife] last year; it taught a few people, but I‘m wondering how was a sad year, but they‘re still playing. The hardy whittling is; no one seems to whittle Fiddle Festival, the Louisiana State Fiddle much anymore. Fred Beavers had an Championship, which I discovered in Boyce

112 in the late seventies has now moved from Sadly, we lost her a couple of years ago. We Boyce to Marthaville and gone to the Natchi- talked about Hezekiah already but that was toches Folk Festival. Last year‘s, this year‘s some of the first research done in the Delta winner Jason Saucer is from West Monroe, that we have. Later, another blues and rock- and the runners up are from the Delta and hill abilly musician, from West Monroe of all parishes, so the Delta is still strong in fid- places, Kenny Bill Stinson, is a fantastic dling. We have people like Laymon Godwin, Jerry Lee Lewis wannabe. Some people say who plays old time country musician, new he out performs Jerry Lee. There are a num- country, teaching dobro on an apprenticeship ber people like that still in the Delta although and also playing pedal steel. I don‘t see the younger generation keeping it up. Frantom: The dobro resonator guitar he‘s We do have some immigrant cultures playing, too, was made by Floyd Jasper. in the area I mentioned. The Chinese in Fer- Floyd is from around Greenwood near riday have been a big group. There‘s a new Shreveport. immigrant who moved into Ferriday, Qin Lin the China Wok restaurant, who is continuing Roach: Right. Right, that‘s somebody I don‘t on not only Chinese cooking, but also Chi- think we‘ve ever interviewed. Somebody nese paper folding crafts. (My photographs of needs to go interview him. That‘s future re- immigrant communities seem to have disap- search. We‘ve got a favorite Delta blues duo, peared from the Powerpoint.) We‘ve done a just about north of where Hezekiah‘s from, lot of work in the Mexican American com- Po‘ Henry and Tookie. They were folk art- munity in Union Parish for the most part. ists of the year a couple of years ago. I just There have been quite a few traditions docu- had to mention Mitchell Sheldon. He was mented there from home altars to one of my favorite blues musicians, actually quinceañeras and other kinds of crafts like from Haynesville, near Homer. He‘s the one piñata making as well. that told me, ―God likes any kind of music. I wanted to sort of just think about You can play gospel one song, and the next things that have gone away like the yard art song could be low-down, dirty blues.‖ He at Campti; you drive by there now, and it‘s just said, ―God loves any kind of music.‖ all grown over, and its maker has died, and I Rhythm and blues—that tradition, Judge wanted us to think about some of the great McGee‘s still around but Charlie Lewis died; ones who have passed; this is just a list of he‘s on the keyboard. I don‘t see a really ten, and it‘s not complete but these are some strong tradition of rhythm and blues in the people, and some of them are not represented African American community right now. I in photos. I just wanted to think about them think Hezekiah‘s right, we really need to get again: Penola Caesar, Brownie Ford from those kids involved and I hope we can do Hebert in Caldwell Parish; Vernie Gibson, that. We have a lot of work done by Annie Caldwell Parish; Rosie Jackson, Jackson Par- Staten with shape note quartet and a capella ish (who represents several quilters whom singing. Also we did a lot of work with Pe- we‘ve lost. She was a spectacular African nola Caesar; I didn‘t have a photo of her American strip quiltmaker.); Colonel Ike handy. She was doing a lot of the long and Hamilton, the auctioneer, Ouachita Parish; short meter hymns, the Dr. Watts hymns, and Judge Alwine Ragland, Madison Parish; teaching workshops. She also had an appren- Azzie Roland, Union Parish basket maker; ticeship with the state Folklife Program to Leola Simmons, Union Parish, cornshuck hat teach Sean Kelly some of these traditions. maker; Captain Oren Russell, East Carroll

113 Parish riverboat captain with an incredible Gregory: I think it‘s often a problem. What I knowledge of the Mississippi River; Whitey hear from the communities often is ―where is Shockley, East Carroll Parish Mississippi all this stuff?‖ which is why I kind of encour- River fisherman. Fortunately, both Whitey aged Susan to talk about some of this stuff Shockley and Capt. Russell were at Smith- we have collected. People say, ―Where is sonian Festival in 1997. Capt. Russell was 92 this stuff? How do I get this stuff? How do at the time and sharp as a tack, and they told we get it back?‖ How could Judith get some so many stories on one stage, and those were of this stuff back that‘s been done on Ferri- all recorded. Those were duplicated by the day? I really don‘t know. Smithsonian, and they, too, are in our ar- chive. They are virtually uncataloged; the Roach: We‘ve done some little things to get tapes are organized according to stage and some of it back. We put all of the local kind artist; the tapes have a rough log. Just a of musicians in a little mini exhibit to go with wealth of stories that probably were never her museum because we thought they‘ve got captured anywhere else. I think we might all of these big stars in there, but we don‘t want to think about Dewey Balfa‘s admoni- have Po‘ Henry and Tookie. We don‘t have tion as we think about continuity and change the local, regional musicians presented in in the Delta: ―A culture must be preserved their own little community museum. I think one generation at a time.‖ that‘s one way. If we could do more exhibi- tions. Pete always worked through the book. Rasmussen: We need to get on with our in- One of the things I didn‘t tell you is that Pete formance, but I wanted to open it up for a had a wonderful bunch of essays. He gave few minutes of questions. them to me on big yellow sheets like this. They were handwritten in his beautiful, me- Frantom: Can I ask a question? thodical handwriting. We had them all typed up. They‘ve been through about—they were Rasmussen: Yes. on 5¼‖ disks, and they were on 3 ½‖ flop- pies. Now, we‘ve finally got them in the computers. I gave them to him on a CD Frantom: I wanted to ask Susan: What do you again. We keep updating. We haven‘t up- think we should do as far as making the re- dated them, but we‘ve updated the media. search that‘s already been done on Delta They‘re still being passed on. They‘re beauti- more useable and more available to folks? ful essays on things like gigging, nightclubs

in the Delta. They‘re very much an over- Roach: That might best be answered by Pete, view. I think of Pete as having this just too, considering I‘m a cohort. global view of the Delta up there. Here I am with obvious little bitty pieces of informa- Gregory: I didn‘t hear it. tion. In the archive there at Northwestern, there are all these little tapes and all these Roach: What do we need to do to make this things that we probably need to get people in material more accessible? there and get them transcribed. I tried to get them some categorization like what do we Frantom: What‘s already been done? It have in genres and what we have here and sounds like there‘s just so much that‘s been there. done, but it‘s maybe not in a form that‘s ac- cessible. Gregory: One of the problems, Marcy, I

114 think, is something we did wrong as anthro- Frantom: I was looking at the Delta Initiative pologists and folklorists is that we preserved website. It says on site that it hasn‘t been up- the stuff in the archives, we preserved this dated since 2001. Now I know that we‘ve got stuff in books, we preserved this stuff in the more than a page or two that could be added centers, and we didn‘t give it back to the peo- just in materials collected during the Field ple we got it from. If we tried now, starting School that Susan summarized. with the Park Service projects we‘ve done here on Cane River. We‘ve tried to do them Roach: Now there is something else, too. in partnership with people from the commu- The Cotton Museum up in Lake Providence, nity. I worked with Joey Moran on the Cane we did some work with them to give back River project. The Creole Center here be- some of the Lake Providence documentation came a funnel for giving back that informa- and help with some interpretive information tion to the people we got it from. In that pro- there. At least some of Lake Providence‘s ject, we‘ve already lost most of the older in- stuff got back to Lake Providence. formants. Their kids have seen the films. Their kids have heard the tapes. There‘s Gregory: Ferriday tried. Ferriday had two somebody in the families that began to feed it festivals of their own. They kind of grew out back into the community. We couldn‘t do of the fieldwork up here. We used those fes- that with the whole Delta. tivals to do fieldwork, as well. Those worked until the town ran out of energy. We had Roach: There weren‘t groups there to give it trouble funding those festivals. We had no to. I did things like I would give people back money to do that. That presented a wonderful copies of their tapes which they may or may cross section of the Delta stuff. We did it in not have had a cassette recorder to play it on. Ferriday on purpose because of the music Now, they‘re obsolete anyway. Or I gave groups and because we had so many different them photographs as I could, but there were- representative people of the Delta there. n‘t any overarching culture groups, so to Other towns didn‘t follow. I thought every- speak. body‘d follow suit and have their own folk festival of their own, traditional festival. Gregory: No, there are no organizations that That one lasted two years, and then it kind of you can feed it through. When the Creoles died. People just wore out trying to do it. It started the Creole Heritage Center, that was took an awful lot out of the community to put one of the first things, a sort of a grass roots it together – not to mention an awful lot out thing, where they were trying to get a place to of Northwestern, out of Susan and other peo- sort of . . . well, we‘re talking about a portal ple. I think Maida, you‘re too young to re- for database stuff. The Creole Center is kind member those. Did you help us with the Fer- of a portal where you can put a lot of differ- riday festival? Yeah. Maida had just begun ent kinds of information and feed it out to a to come along here. We worked very hard lot of different communities, and families, with everybody over there. Everybody and whatever. We didn‘t have that in the worked really hard on it. They documented a Delta. Don‘t have it still in the Delta. It‘s lot of stuff that they kept. kind of a pretty important thing to do to fig- ure out how to get the information back to Roach: I have some copies of some of that people. We don‘t know if they want it or not. stuff because we were worried that some- If they do want it, and they ask for it, some- times they were in somebody‘s closet or times it‘s not ours to give back. something.

115 Gregory: Some of it is so lost I can‘t find it. it offends people.

Roach: I have a lot. That‘s all cataloged in Roach: We do have releases for the most the list of what we have. There are some part. tapes I got that were supposedly video tapes of such and such performances, but there was Gregory: Yeah, we do. nothing on the tape. We copied everything they gave us and took it back to Ferriday. Roach: On things. If we don‘t, then you couldn‘t. When we got those releases, here‘s Gregory: It‘s still there. another issue. There was no Internet. Whether or not that would be. . . . It said for Roach: There‘s stuff there. Somebody publications. If you want to read that in the needs to start sitting down and looking at it, I broadest sense, then maybe it would be OK. think. Those are other issues we would have to deal with. Frantom: I noticed in working with the Lou- isiana Federal Writers Project material that Question: Digitization generally means a lot there always seems to be a problem in pre- of things from the point of moving from senting a collection as to whether you want to whatever analog system existed whether it be totally inclusive or whether one thing can was writing on a piece of paper, or reel-to- stand for many examples of that type. reel, or cassette to digital audio format. Gen- erally that means also making it accessible Roach: That‘s always a problem. online. Certainly there could be reasons why some things couldn‘t be completely open and Frantom: How to make that determination. accessible, especially if there are political issues involved. [Inaudible] if you don‘t digi- tize it to the point of bringing it from analog Roach: If you put it online, say that might be cassette. You‘re talking about three weeks in one thing to do is. . . . That‘s the way to your summer, but how much research was really make it available, not so much to the included? When those tapes start falling older folks. apart, it‘s not just that people spent six

months or a year or two years doing addi- Frantom: You could hypertext to individual tional, it‘s that that stuff will never be hap- details. pening again. It‘s gone once that tape starts disintegrating. Roach: Now that we have the ability to digi- tize tapes and we can put all the tapes online. Roach: The tapes had been copied over the . . . Of course, that‘s hours and hours and years so the ones that are getting to that point. hours. I digitized about fifty or seventy-five I think that the shelf life in good storage is tapes last summer for the Great Depression supposed to be fifteen years on a cassette, but project. I spent about three weeks of my life I have some that are older than that that are doing nothing but that. It takes time. hopefully still in good shape, my own per- sonal stuff. Gregory: There is always somebody who feels that this information is so private, so Gregory: It depends on how much happens, personal, that if you tried digitizing it, I think 116 what kind of care you take of them, how of- call or your call has a certain meaning to you ten they‘re played, in terms of the analog and people in your community that that plas- tapes. Some of them will last longer than you tic call can never have. My question is what think. But we don‘t really know. The thing is the meaning you get from your crafts, from that bothers me, Robert, is we don‘t know making decoys, from making calls? What much about the shelf life of digital records, does it mean to you? either. We think we know. We think they‘re better than analog tapes. I‘m sort of like John Bordelon: It‘s hard to explain. When I work, Paul was about his baskets yesterday. I‘m I build dugout boats. I pick a beautiful day in never going to throw my analog tapes away the Fall or the Spring when it‘s sixty-degree as soon as you guys digitize them for me. weather. I gather under a big tree, a big oak I‘m just not going to do that because I really tree at home. I‘ll just chop all day. I can just don‘t know. picture myself a hundred years ago. It gives my heart fulfillment. It makes me happy. I Any other questions? Y‘all have been really can‘t explain. It makes me see how they did it patient. years ago, and it gives me just the pleasure of doing it. If I go hunting with my decoys and Question: Any archivist can save multiple my duck calls, and I power my old pirogue, I copies [Inaudible]. Digitization eliminates can power all over the lake all day long and that. It varies. It isn‘t done overnight just get excitement out of this world. [Inaudible]. The problem with having single I‘m doing something like they did, copies [Inaudible]. I don‘t think it‘s going to and it‘s keeping the culture going. I could go be all that hard, but I do think it‘s something home, and the wife could fuss at me, I‘m just to consider. [Inaudible] something that I‘m as happy as can be. It‘s something I enjoy personally concerned about whenever I go to doing. Some people like going to bars and different archives and I try to access tapes, drinking. Some people get others. That‘s my they‘re inaccessible because they‘re thor- kick. I get a big pleasure out of it. Some oughly [Inaudible]. I did have a question. I people think I‘m crazy chopping on a piece have a question for Dale. [Inaudible] it of wood all day. Some people appreciate it. seems like all of these all of the things It gives me a lot of, I don‘t know. I‘ve got [Inaudible] are talking about from music to books to read stories about how the old peo- making duck calls and duck decoys, we‘re ple did and see their pictures. They live in talking about things getting [Inaudible] under these old shacks. That‘s all they had. They different political economies. The Negro didn‘t have any plastic boats. They had to spiritual is something that grew under the make out of necessity. They had to use what slave economy. Blues is something that grew the land provided them and the tools the under sharecropping and lumbering econ- blacksmiths made. If they wanted to go duck omy. Rock and R&B grew under the politi- hunting, they had to make their own boat. cal economy of [Inaudible]. To me, when You couldn‘t go and buy your plastic decoys you‘re talking about any of these things, cul- in 1900. You had to make your own decoys. tural economy of survival of these things de- In South Louisiana at the turn of the century, pends on one or two of those things which is people made decoys like those wind decoys either artisanship, you produce something to sell. They were going for about $1.00 a that‘s empirically better than the standard- duck. All the people that lived in this little ized, sort of plastic version of something. village in the marsh made their own decoy You‘re carving the better call than the plastic [Inaudible] market hunt and made the extra

117 decoy to sell in New Orleans at the French Gregory: Go ahead. Market. They‘d get a $1.00 a piece for one. That was good money in those days. A dug- Bordelon: I‘ll go and we go to Three Rivers. out boat in 1930, it cost you about $35.00 to I‘ll go down the Mississippi River, Cata- make. Two weeks, it took about 100 hours, houla. I‘ll take a day, and I‘ll just go all over two weeks steady work to make a boat. It the swamp. I‘m not going to buy a piece of was $35.00. In 1900, it was about $5.00 to wood. I do it like they did it. If I could find $10.00. That‘s what they sold for. Right a nice piece of cypress root, man, that‘s like now, that‘s $2,500.00 to make a boat. A lot I‘m the happiest man in the world. I‘ll take of people, the old people made it to sell just that home and see if I‘m going to make a for an income. Everything was about an in- mallard or a teal. That‘s how they did it. I come even back then – the decoy making, the just go looking for it; I bring my boys with market hunters. That‘s the only thing they me. Going as a family and doing it, it‘s just had to use. They used cypress root which [Inaudible] as [Inaudible] or hunting over it was available in the swamp. They did use or killing ducks over it. It‘s the whole proc- whatever they could get their hands on and ess of doing it. When you do put the decoys the tools they had to make a living. That‘s out and hunt over it, and especially watch a why I like to keep the art going. bunch of ducks land in it, you know you‘ve really done something. That‘s the enjoyment Gregory: There‘s always been this thing that I get out of it. you use what you‘ve got. One of the things that replaced the working decoys, say in Roach: I think a lot of the artists feel the Catahoula Lake, where people made hun- same way. A lot of them tell me it‘s a gift. dreds of them, is they use plastic milk con- They had to use it. It‘s just that creative ex- tainers and Coke bottles. Plastic Coke bottles pression. Like ask Marcy why does she became the duck decoys. You couldn‘t have play? Or Max? Why do they play? Why do made them out of cypress anymore. They you play music? didn‘t have the trees. Suddenly somebody‘s using his head watching the ducks. They‘re Frantom: It‘s just satisfying to do it. When I making them out of things you‘d never even started playing with these guys, I really didn‘t think about making them out of. Of course, know how much fun it was. I mean, you can when the lake went down, the woods were play for eight hours, ten hours. You‘re not full of empty milk bottles, none of which bio- tired. You don‘t think about anything. It‘s degraded ever, whereas all of these beautiful, also that sense of fitting in somewhere that old wooden decoys that we remember people you are doing something that is part of the chopping out were biodegraded back to great continuum of creativity. I don‘t know. Mother Earth. Rasmussen: Thank you so much everyone. Bordelon: Robert, I go. . . . I‘m sorry.

118 Picking and Singing

Max Turner, Marcy Frantom, and Friends

L-R: Marcy Frantom, Max Turner, Floyd Breedlove, and Buzz Salard

Country Music: The Delta “Rim”

Fiddles and fiddlers, guitars, bass fiddles, and always singers mark the Anglo-Saxon based mu- sic of the Delta margins and of the ―ridges‖ like Maçon Ridge and Crowley‘s Ridge that offer the higher ground in the flood plain of the Mississippi.

Max, Marcy, and Friends (Max Turner, Marcy Frantom, Buzz Salard, and Floyd Breedlove) played this informance so the continuum from the older house dance traditions to modern Blue- grass could be heard and discussed.

This music, once identified as ―poor people‘s music‖ now is played by whole new generations, including one that began to leave the Delta and innovate new sounds, like Rockabilly, in the 1940s and 1950s and whose children are doing cross-over country. The transition from house dances and porches to honky tonks and music halls in Nashville, Shreveport, and Austin has modified the roots, but this remains the music of a large portion of the Delta heartlands.

119 120 SESSION V

121 122 Session V – Some New Populations

Moderators: Maida Owens, Dr. Shane Rasmussen Participants: Pinki Diwan, Irma Rodriguez, Dr. Chandan Sharma, Martha Walker

The following initial paragraphs include information provided by Maida Owens about the New Popula- tions Project: The New Populations Project is an initiative L-R: Dr. Shane Rasmussen, Maida Owens, Dr. Chandan Sharma, Pinki Diwan, of the Louisiana Divi- Irma Rodriguez, and Martha Walker sion of the Arts Folk- life Program to reach out to our state's immi- foreign-born members. grant and refugee communities. The goal is This project asks communities and to address an underserved sector within the individuals how they maintain their home cultural economy and provide an opportunity culture here in Louisiana. We ask: Do you to engage these communities in the identifica- make crafts, music, or foods that are tradi- tion and documentation of their traditional tional in your culture? Do you celebrate holi- culture and art forms. days that are important to your culture? Do Louisiana is home to significant num- you work at traditional occupations? bers of people from Vietnam, Honduras, Our strategy in the first phase of this Mexico, Cuba, India, China, Taiwan, Pales- project was to reach out to these communities tine, and the Middle East, the Philippines, by documenting their traditions. Generally, Nicaragua, Guatemala, Korea, El Salvador, documentation focused on folk traditions Japan, Columbia, Pakistan, Nigeria, Laos, rather than classical or popular art forms, and Thailand. In addition, there are trans- although we recognize that some classical or national cultural groups, such as the Gari- popular art forms take on new meanings in a funa and Mayans here. The priority is on the diaspora setting. Fieldworkers documented larger, more concentrated communities with community traditions, art forms, and events long-term residence in Louisiana that include and then provided essays and photographs that are posted on the Folklife in Louisiana website (www.louisianafolklife.org/ newpopulations/). Fieldworkers also submit- ted field reports on their findings that include lists of tradition-bearers and artists, profes- sional artists, organizations, and suggestions for programming. The slides illustrate the diverse immigrant communities and tradi- tions currently found in the state. In 2010, the Louisiana Division of the Arts (LDOA) offered the Open Doors Men- toring Program as a pilot to immigrant or- Dun Loc Catholic Youth Group. Photo: Maida Owens 123 ganizations in three Regional Development jun Clickers, a computer club in town. Help Agency regions: Baton Rouge, New Orleans, them, that‘s what I do. and Lafayette. The goal was to introduce three immigrant organizations to the arts net- Pinki Diwan: My name is Pinki Diwan. I came from India about thirty-five years ago work and teach them about grant writing so to Baton Rouge, Louisiana, made it home. I that they could then be competitive in the De- grew up with a feeling that we have to give centralized Arts Fund grants program. The back to community. To do that, we all Program consisted of grants to three organi- started an Indian organization called Sharing zations, mentoring workshops, and individual Shores, which helps the domestic violence, to consultations with LDOA staff and CDCs. stop domestic violence. We did a cookbook The program continues in 2011 with addi- which later on Chandan is going to talk. It‘s in the front on a table in the room. Our group tional community groups being supported. is dedicated to help the community and give The program is funded through a grant from back to the community. I, personally, work the National Endowment for the Arts. at LSU in the LSU Foundation. My back- ground is in fund raising and research. I‘ll be Shane Rasmussen: Hello, and welcome to the happy to talk or give any views on that if final session of the 2010 Delta Symposium anyone has any questions on that, too. funded by the National Park Service. I just want to welcome everyone this morning. Irma Rodriguez: My name is Irma Rodri- Happy you‘re here. I‘m Dr. Shane Rasmus- guez. I used to live here in Natchitoches, but sen. This is Maida Owens, and she and I will I moved to Forest Hill, Louisiana in 2004. I be co-moderating this session. I just want to own a little Mexican restaurant there. It‘s a begin. I‘m wondering if we can have every- Hispanic community, mainly, out there. I do one introduce themselves just briefly to our a lot of translating for people. I help people. audience so everyone knows who everyone I don‘t work for anybody. I‘m self- is. I know you‘ve been talking and mingling employed. so well, anyway. Unfortunately, those con- versations were not on tape. If you can just introduce yourselves briefly, that would be Martha Walker: Good morning. My name is great. Maida, do you want to start? Martha Walker. I‘m a retired ESL teacher. I‘ve worked for the last ten years here in Nat- chitoches Parish helping the Hispanic chil- Maida Owens: OK. I‘m Maida Owens. I‘m dren in their classes. with the Louisiana Folklife Program which is in the Louisiana Division of the Arts, Depart- ment of Culture, Recreation and Tourism. Rasmussen: Thank you so much. I also I‘ve been there for about twenty-four years. wanted to add before we really get rolling My latest project is called New Populations. that if folks in the audience have questions, That‘s what I‘ll be sharing about today. there‘s no need to hold them until the end. If we can make this a conversation, that‘s all that matters. Please, if you have questions, Chandan Sharma: I‘m Chandan Sharma. I‘m feel free. I wanted to start today talking just a retired pediatrician, practiced for several for a brief. . . . Actually, there are several years in Marksville, Louisiana and Baton people on this panel that have really spent a Rouge. Now I volunteer with Sharing Shores, lot of their time with foods and how those an Indian women‘s association as well as Ca-

124 foods exemplify the sense of their commu- in Baton Rouge even came fifty years ago. In nity. If you could talk about. . . . Chandan, those days, the ingredients were not avail- would you like to start? Why did you assem- able, so they used ingredients that were lo- ble this cookbook, Sharing Shores? Why a cally available and made Indian foods with cookbook? Why not some other fund-raising that. activity? Diwan: Or brought it from home. Sharma: One of the things is that food is cen- tral to people‘s lives. They want to hand Sharma: Or brought it from home. Our suit- down the recipes. People remember what cases would be filled with spices, especially they did, when they did, and it‘s all sur- ground masalas or mixtures that your mother rounded with food memories. I think it goes made, and you brought it. My daughter back to childhood. When people move to would always say, ―Why does Grandma‘s another place, they remember the food of suitcase smell, has that smell?‖ She associ- their homeland or their mother‘s cooking. ates Grandma with her smell of spices in her Everybody remembers their mother‘s cook- suitcase. ing. The reason we did this cookbook was Rasmussen: Was it hard getting that through two reasons, actually. We wanted to give customs? back to the community. We wanted to do it as a fund-raiser. We also wanted to make Sharma: Sorry? sure it was a community cookbook that repre- sented the Indian community. There were several cookbooks. Indian cookbooks were Rasmussen: Was it hard to get that through coming out in the market. Now, there are customs? hundreds of Indian cookbooks. There was no real good community cookbook. Also, this Sharma: Customs got used to. They knew was going to be a fund-raiser because we exactly. Do you have this, this, this? They wanted to make sure we gave back to the would tell us, ―You can‘t bring this.‖ Over community. We fulfill that by doing Sharing the times, things have changed what customs Shores which is a non-profit organization. allows you to bring. I think that so many In- We did Saffron to Sassafras. The name, ac- dians coming now. The Indians in America tually, reflects both the country we came are the third largest Asian community after from which is India. The saffron was from the Chinese and the Filipino community. The India. Sassafras for Louisiana. We wanted to Indian community is actually growing by showcase how we brought the food from In- leaps and bounds. It‘s the largest increase in dia, and then we assimilated using local in- numbers here. gredients. The sassafras reflects that. We have recipes of things like broc- coli [which] were never available in India. Rasmussen: Do the recipes reflect that? Are Zucchini, broccoli were not Indian vegeta- there a lot of local ingredients that you‘ve bles. The vegetables that were available incorporated into the recipes? there are now available here. There are now Asian markets, Indian markets. You have Farmers‘ Markets that grow these vegetables Sharma: Yes, we have several recipes in the and home gardens. Everybody‘s got. . . . If fusion cuisine because when we came, many you can‘t buy it, they will grow it. The Lou- of us came thirty-five, forty, and some people 125 isiana climate is so similar to the Indian cli- using that really could be Indian food. I‘m mate – hot and humid. Of course the Indian very surprised at things that have happened. climate varies depending on what part of In- When we came maybe thirty years ago, there dia you live, but hot and humid would de- were only a handful of Indian grocery stores scribe maybe 80% of the country. Louisiana all over. Now, because of the Internet and was just perfect for growing things that were the local thing, everything is available. To- available in India. day what has happened is that we have made a full circle because the world has become so Rasmussen: You know, it‘s interesting to small. Things that are available in India are hear you talk about how these foods and reci- now available here the very next day or at the pes are changing. You talk about how the same time. Culturally, there‘s not the dis- recipes reflect that change. If you were to go tance. to the homes of your friends, in their kitch- I wanted to, when we did the cook- ens, are they assimilating in these ways on a book, we wanted to pass down our recipes widespread basis? that we came with. We wanted our children to have something. One of the things that has Sharma: The Indian population, you have to happened, today‘s child cooks differently, if remember that covers the ones who came in they cook. It surprised me, the technology. the sixties, the seventies, the eighties, the They don‘t use a lot of books. I asked some nineties. There really are two generations. kids in the plane as I was going, ―What do One is what I would call the ―our genera- you do?‖ They said, ―When I want to learn tion,‖ and then I would call the next genera- something, I get my mom on the webcam. I tion ―our kids‘ generation,‖ the ones that have my webcam. She‘s standing there and were born here and the kids that are coming stirring, showing me how she makes this.‖ here as students. You‘ll see a wide change. So, she‘s talking there, and he‘s typing his Our generation, we were cooking the food paper, or downloading it, whatever. He does- that we grew up with, but we really changed n‘t feel the need to even go on the Net. My it because it was at the time that we learned daughter goes on the Net, and she says, ―Oh, to cook as young married girls. We used the I want to make this.‖ You go on the Net; you local ingredients. There was a lot of fusion. find a recipe. There are thousands of sites. We would make lasagna. Plus our children They get it from the Net. were going to school. We had to change our There‘s nothing like having a true and recipes. They would eat Indian at home, but tried recipe book. It‘s just like most of us they would eat lasagna and tacos and every- have River Roads. River Roads community thing else at school. We had to make things cookbook has been the largest selling cook- that they liked. At times they would say, book. Everybody in America knows River ―No, I don‘t want to eat Indian food.‖ We Roads. To me, our Indian cookbook is kind started cooking the local food. We also of the River Roads. It will go down after started to adapt the lasagna with a little bit of years and years and years. These were tried Indian spices for taste that we liked. It be- and true recipes that reflect the community came a fusion. At one time what we called with diverse types of cuisine. It reflects the the Indianized lasagna, now the chefs are ac- changes that we have made. There are differ- tually using those spices, and it has become ent ways the kids are learning. The new kids gourmet lasagna if you use the spices that we that are coming in are actually cooking just have been doing for years. I find more and like they cook at home two years ago. I think more recipes in the magazines that chefs are because these technologies are available, they

126 are not assimilating into the local communi- having another building next to our restaurant ties like we did many years ago. We were so we can do it again because it is a really forced to, whereas today, everything is avail- good population. We are missing out on that. able. We didn‘t mean to do it like that. My son has done instead of writing down the recipes and Rasmussen: Irma, hello. What are you seeing stuff, we have videotaped the recipes. We in the Mexican community? Are you seeing speak how the portions and the measurements the kind of assimilation in the foodways, or is and how we do it and everything. They got it it more conservative in its trend? on a CD. Instead of a book, we did it on a CD because he said, ―Momma, you‘re not Rodriguez: It‘s a lot of likeness about the cul- going to be here forever. When you‘re gone, ture like she said about her explanation from we still want to see how you did it.‖ That‘s her talking. I was listening to her very how we have done our recipes and stuff. closely. We have a lot of things we do the same. In Forest Hill, it‘s a big, large commu- Rasmussen: That‘s wonderful. One of the nity. It‘s like 4,200 people in thirty-five problems that I experienced in Louisiana is miles. The main reason why I moved to For- that it‘s very, very difficult to get some types est Hill, it was to cater to the Hispanic peo- of food here. For example, the Chinese res- ple. taurants are all buffets – not all of them, but We started doing like we have a tradi- many of them. They‘re not Chinese food that tion of like Saturdays and Sunday mornings, I can tell. It‘s very, very Americanized. It‘s Mexican people get up really early. They eat certainly not what I imagined Chinese folks menudo which is a pig tripe soup. They like eating at home. It‘s not the Asian food that I it for some reason. I don‘t, but a lot of peo- experienced when I was in Asia for four ple, a lot of my people do. They get up really years. I never encountered anything like early, and that‘s what they want to eat for those dishes in Asia itself. We were in Abbe- breakfast. When I first moved to Forest Hill, ville once. My wife, we were at a Chinese I was catering to a lot. I still do. restaurant. It was going to be this awful buf- My restaurant has turned around. fet. My wife went back, and something got Now, I‘ve got more American clientele than I into her. She went back, and she started talk- do Hispanic people. We are trying to figure ing to the folks in the back. They are all Ko- out. The reason why I‘m saying now it‘s dif- rean. She said, ―Can I have some Korean ferent is because I used to have a little con- food?‖ They were so touched. They were so venient grocery store and cash deli to go. amazed, ―You want Korean food?‖ ―Yes. That‘s how I started my business. I used to Can you make us some Korean food?‖ It was cater more to them. My clientele has im- kind of a wonderful experience. proved. I‘ve been kind of losing my His- Generally they cater in Louisiana to panic customers because a lot of them, they what they think Americans want and expect. work at the nursery business. They are It‘s really, generally, not very authentic, nor sweaty and dirty. When I have a lot of doc- really very good, to be honest. Do you ex- tors and lawyers and people like that that perience something in your restaurant where come to the restaurant now, they are kind of people expect it to be Americanized? embarrassed to go in there. I took the gro- cery part out because I bought a new build- Rodriguez: No. We try to keep it as more ing. It‘s larger. I had lost a lot of my His- authentic as we possibly can. We do have a panic clientele, which we are working on lot of quesadillas and taco salad and stuff that

127 American people like. We also do the cow‘s never had that kind of curry that I find in head, which is called [Inaudible]. We do the cookbooks of forty years ago. We never ate molé which is the traditional wedding dish that. Now you find more and more authentic that you do for weddings and birthday par- recipes because the palate has changed. Peo- ties. We do the huevos rancheros which is a ple want more authentic food. real Mexican breakfast. We do the beef tripe soup. Every Friday we do an authentic Mexi- Rasmussen: Sometimes I wonder though, can dish. I mean we do tamales in banana aside from food, do people have expectations leaves. We do pozoles. We do sopas stuff about your culture as a whole, other aspects like that that none of the Mexicans restau- of your culture that maybe are not accurate or rants have got around here. We have been they‘re not able to see clearly what your cul- certified in the state of Louisiana through the ture truly is. I‘ll give you an example. I Mexican Counsel to be one of the most au- went down to Pho Fest in New Orleans. thentic Mexican restaurants. We are on the They called me and said, ―Do you want to tourist guide of the United States as an au- come down because we have some Lion thentic Mexican restaurant. We are trying to Dancers here?‖ I was looking for Lion Danc- keep it. American people like that. That‘s ers for the Festival in 2009. So I said, why we stay really busy as we do. They go ―Great!‖ I got in my car, ran down to Pho in there. I have a lot of people going in mis- Fest, and it was spectacular. They had all sions to Mexico, and they learn how to eat these high school Lion Dance groups. There like the way that we do it there. We do tripe was one I really liked. They seemed a little tacos because that‘s an authentic Mexican better than the rest of the groups. They food. I have a girl, and she came in there and seemed more, more cheerful and funny. she said, ―I like to come here because if they There was another group that really wasn‘t want one taco, we sell one taco. They like it that good. They weren‘t really well prac- with cilantro and onions and limes just like ticed. They were pretty, kind of nervous. I we do in Mexico.‖ They make a request and kind of was intimating to one of the folks we do it. I have a customer that came in there there that was in charge. I said, ―I‘d like this and said, ―I want some molé enchiladas. Can one group to come up. They seem really you do that?‖ I said, ―Sure.‖ We went and good.‖ ―No, you don‘t want them!‖ I said, ―I did the molé enchiladas for him. We cater to really do.‖ ―No, you want that group.‖ He the white people. Not just anybody is just in wanted the group that I thought wasn‘t really a Mexican restaurant to eat quesadillas and that great. He said, ―Don‘t worry. They just taco salad and things like that. If they want haven‘t practiced. They‘re the best group to go to my restaurant, I want them to have a here. You just need to trust us.‖ So I said, good experience, the closest to what Mexican ―OK.‖ I went out grumbling, thinking that I food is supposed to be. had kind of been pushed into something that I didn‘t know was the best. They came up, and Sharma: I find that the American palate has they were the best. They had six months to really changed over the years. It is more ad- practice. They came to the festival. They venturous now. The world‘s becoming were spectacular. They were well above any smaller. There are more communities that of the other groups. They knew it. They are coming in. The exposure to authentic could see it. They knew the signs to tell. food is much more now than it was in the six- They knew the people individually. I could ties. At that time, people. . . . The ―curry‖ not see it at first. It was only by trusting that never really existed and was made. We them and going with what they said that they

128 were right. probably not go do my nails, or I will not do Do you see sometimes people looking what I wanted to do probably because we still outside into your culture and, not just with focus on them until they‘re ready to serve in food but with other things, and they have this world and be on their own. That‘s going maybe the false impression or they don‘t un- to be my legacy. That‘s going to be what I derstand what is really going on? live for. That‘s what I think one thing is we truly would like to share with other people. Diwan: I can say something on that. First I I‘m saying not only Indian parents are doing can answer your question. I think mostly, that, but every parent wants to do this. That‘s being an Indian, what I have heard getting one of the secrets that people do not some- close to my American friends is the only times understand clearly the why some of thing false they all think is Indians have it those kids do better than others in the class. easy because they are all smart. Their kids We are so involved in their life. Our whole are going to be doctors, engineers. They for- focus in life is kids, like sacrificing or using get that how it happens is all the sacrifices every penny if they want to learn jazz music, that Indian parents are putting behind, pre- they want to go to any certain conference, serving the culture that they brought from leadership conference, whatever. We want to India is that how my parents did when I was make sure they get every opportunity that growing up. My mother never had her priori- they can learn and go. ties. It was all what we needed. It was all Our generation had to work way what we need to do better in life. It was all harder, whoever the first generation is. I‘m what we need to buy to learn more. That‘s sure in all immigrant communities the same how we raised our kids here. I have two thing happens. First ones come in, the dollar sons. Everything I did from the day they has to be stretched so much that you don‘t were born is always how I can pass my cul- want to use it because you want to send back ture to them, how I can give them the value home. We are a sandwich generation. I still system that I brought from there [India]. I take care of my mother-in-law. I still want was going to mention like food, for example. my things to go to my kids, the more values This is a cookbook for other people. When that we can give even though we have fusion my kids were growing, the kids from his recipes and we‘ve talked about how things class or the games, they came to [the] house. have changed, we truly want to introduce our It was open house for them. As I grew, I al- festivals, our culture to children so they rec- ways saw that happening. They all ate there. ognize that. Whether they carry it or not, that They saw it was always available for them to will be their decision when they grow up. learn our culture, see us, what we do, how I‘m finding more and more as our nephews, our family is together, our family values nieces who are grown and have children, they there. That‘s one thing I find that a lot of go back to again the culture that we intro- outsiders do not understand, the real hard duced them when they were young. They work behind it. want to give that to their children. At this On weekends, I, for example, I was time, I have few cousins, nephews and nieces just telling her. If my son is moving next in New York and other places where they are week, my priority on the weekend is going to now searching how they can teach their chil- be how I‘m going to get all this stuff ready. dren Hindi or teach them Sanskrit or teach We are going to do the checklist of what will them all world religions so they can adopt the make him more comfortable instead of doing same values and things even when they are my own relaxing on the weekend. I will married with another culture. They want to

129 give the children all the background. Our children learned when we did the festivals like Diwali, the Light Festival. They know what foods, authentic foods we serve at that. We all still make the effort. When the festi- vals come, we want to present that picture that we grew up with. They‘re, at least, see- ing it, and they can have the memories of it. How they live everyday life, that is of course, the things have changed even other- wise. Health conscious people, when I was growing up, there was no issue in the house about butter. We ate it. That was just it. Now, health-wise, what we are told and see Mendhi Painting. Photo: Maida Owens today about our food habits, our things, it has just changed internationally because we have versity in certain administration, I don‘t think more findings, more awareness of those I can walk in for my interview in my sari, and things. So that has changed in our culture as they would hire me. It would be very little well as any other culture, that we will not be chance if they do that. You have to change using so generously the butter in the cooking and train yourself to be living, to be able to as much as our moms did or some of the sell yourself. We learned that when you live spices. We do value the herbs that we grew here long. up with, how healthy they are and how help- Our children who are born here, they ful they are for your health. We are defi- have definitely learning in schools what is nitely keeping them in our kitchen and using expected from them. There is going to be a ginger root, garlic which people are now tak- little change with the outside of us, but the ing pills of. They are going and buying [the inside, the value system, the culture will stay pills] for cholesterol, for lowering blood pres- the same. How? I grew up seeing my father sure. There are certain vegetables like she doing social service all his life. That was his mentioned that they are growing in their own way of living, helping the poor, helping the gardens. They can have that use and health needy, work with Mahatma Gandhi. He did benefit because that‘s how we can preserve things that showed us. When I was little, I that culture. There are both aspects. didn‘t think about it much. When I grew up, I There are certain things we are chang- wanted to do the same things because that‘s ing because change is like nature. We have what I thought was the good thing to do. Our to change to be able to adapt. If I had just kids have to see those values in us, how it‘s come from India, maybe I would be wearing important to give back, how it‘s important to an Indian sari or Indian clothes. But, we work leave your legacy, and what is important role, here, we move around here, we drive. We whether it is school, whether it is music, had to change a little bit in our everyday life whether it is clothing. What is our culture? to be able to fit in your culture. We are the We do want to pass that to them. That‘s one outsiders. We are the first generation. That‘s of the reasons why the book was written be- what happens. Sometimes they are needs; cause we have little stories in it where they sometimes they are wishes. Sometimes it can read when was this food served or why happens because of the culture you are living was this done. At certain times of the year, in. If I want to go get a job in a certain uni- like there‘s a time when their sugar cane

130 comes. They make juice out of it then make be citizens? The children really have to make this pudding out of it, so it can only be done their own identity. Immigrants bring their that time of the year, in festival when they culture. They know why they have come serve that. Those are the kinds of things that here, what they‘re doing, the preservation, you want to share with the children by show- the handing down of that culture as they ing that this is how we did it. That‘s where I knew to their children. The children are think there‘s a lot we‘ve preserved, a lot we really sandwiched between their peers and changed. their families. The cultures may be so totally That‘s how only way the melting pot. different. For them, the assimilation to be We are mingling in this culture. We always like the others and yet be like their family. I appreciate. That‘s one of the way why we think it‘s an ongoing thing that they face until did this book was to thank the local commu- such time as they become adult and then feel nity for the opportunities they gave us when really comfortable and then are able to say, we came here, the friendship they gave us ―These are my parents‘ values.‖ They have that we wanted to show them how thankful really incorporated them inside, and they are we are. The only way we could do was to passing down to their children. During the give back to community and show we are times when they are in elementary school, part of you and you are our adopted mother- and they may be dressed differently. They land. We want to be loving you as much. may be bringing different foods. They don‘t This is where we are living now. That was eat the same things that their peers are eating. another message we wanted to send to our They‘re not allowed to go for sleepovers be- peers who are immigrants that you don‘t cause that was not done. come and utilize this country and live here. When my children were growing up, I You adopt it, and you give back so that your would call a friend who was, I would call her children and others can learn. We have the local, married to an Indian, and get advice equal responsibility. We can‘t be on the side from her. I said, ―Is it OK to have a coed of taking. That was one of the main, main sleepover?‖ I had never done or heard of a things why we wanted to be so passionate coed sleepover. What goes on? Yes, it was about it. We continue to do that. If book is better to have it in your house than to let your sold, we want to continue to do volunteer daughter go to somebody else‘s house. At work, soup kitchens, or whatever way we least you know. Those kinds of things, the can. Some of the women who are in our children want to be like everybody else, and group are retired. That passion needs to be we who have never experienced it before, we there in society. Whether we are from India have to then adapt and change and under- or from anywhere else, that is something we stand in terms of food, in terms of clothes, in would like to encourage people to do. That‘s terms of dating, all the aspects. I think in what I wanted to say. many cultures there is the same. Like she said, the Indian students or the Indians are Rasmussen: Thank you. brainy. There‘s even more pressure on them, the students, to do well because it‘s expected. Sharma: One of the things that, of course, all You‘re Indian; you‘ve got to be a valedicto- immigrant communities, is the conflict that is rian, or you‘ve got to be a doctor. You‘re not there with 1) the immigrants, and 2) even going into medicine? You want to be an art- more with the children born here. I think we ist? You want to work in theater? My good- are seeing that today. It‘s very much in the ness, those professions are unheard of. Over news. Should children of illegal immigrants time, over the years, over the decades you

131 now find, although a great deal of numbers of children, that‘s automatically not going to be kids are going into the traditional professions the same working hard habits or the way that of the sciences, there are a lot of students we would rather do the cleaning in the bath- who are now going into other fields that they rooms ourselves and save $75.00 than calling want to. the maid because, to me, that could be used somewhere else. They are not going to do it. Diwan: The reason is, Chandan, because the Once they have jobs, they want to enjoy life. first generation who came here, they came They didn‘t live like that. I think those things with one purpose, and that was to better their are very natural. I happily accept them be- lives, higher education. Most first people cause that change is going to happen auto- who came from India were. . . . . Friends I matically. They are not going to feel if they have locally who have been there over forty spend a dollar as much as I feel when I do. I years, most everybody came for higher edu- have to see if it is the best use of it. Can cation. The kids automatically expect that. someone else who does not have money be They have to do better than their parents be- able to use this back home or here? A hun- cause they are provided way more than what dred thoughts will go before we actually we were provided when we came here. spend money. What happens is the children People who came here, they used to are not living under the same circumstances be able to come with $7.00 in pocket. That‘s as we lived when we came as first generation. it. You could not bring money with you That change is always going to be there. I‘m when you came to U.S. I came with $7.00. hoping the same happens in your communi- When you came in, you worked as wherever. ties, too. If you have some relatives or friends or some organization that would help you, would be Rodriguez: What I was going to say about the only place. Then you lived on basically what she was talking about is every culture $1.00 a day. You ate a doughnut or you ate that immigrates to the States, I think we‘re whatever. You lived with somebody. They different. We‘ve got different . . . . All the had to work hard to be even paying their bills Latino cultures are known by physical labor. as the student, whether they gave them a We do a lot of construction work, a lot of res- scholarship, that was the only way used to be taurants, a lot of cleaning houses just the stuff able to come at first. It‘s changed. like that. I have a son who just recently The world of technology has really graduated from LSU in Baton Rouge. When made a change in the whole world. People we went to the graduation, I had heard only are learning more about Indian culture auto- three Latino last names came through. matically through the Bollywood movies, or Mostly it was Asian people like Japanese and whether they are watching TV, or they could whatever and Indian people. We got differ- pull whatever work they needed on the Inter- ences. We‘re known for the physical work. net. Henna is one of the examples. That was If you are doing a driveway on your house, a a traditionally eastern thing. I have American lot of white people call me and tell me, ―Ms. friends call me when they have a party at Irma, do you know anybody that can come their house, ―Can you tell me a name of some and help us? We are throwing a driveway at artist that can come and do henna at our my house. We need a couple of men.‖ They party?‖ It‘s both ways. The culture has been will not call her; they will call me. They call adopted by locals and brought from there. We me like, ―I need a nanny.‖ I told Christy, my are exchanging those things. The hardships daughter, I said, ―We need to put some kind that people brought in the past better living to of work agency here. We‘ll make a lot of

132 money with that.‖ Everybody comes. Re- grape. His momma did not know how to do cently, I had found Dr. Carlton. He‘s a den- CPR. A lot of things like that. The American tist in Alexandria. I found him a nanny. people have gotten so involved with our cul- They were having their first baby, and there ture, with our community. are a lot of people that don‘t have a job. I‘m kind of a leader because every- There was a single woman that I recom- body comes and tries to do something, they mended to him. Now, every doctor in Alex- come to me. Everybody comes, where there andria is calling me. She‘s like the best they is a doctor, where they is a clinic coming up, ever had. They are really pleased with her. where there is whatever. They come and We try to adopt this culture, too. American they ask me, ―What do you think about this. people are trying to cater to us. Can you be involved? Can you help us? Can you come and tell us what the necessities are Sharma: Let me ask you a question. Are around here.‖ A lot of people are just really most of these people, who are working, they concerned. We are really grateful for that. speak English well? We had the Hispanic Mass. Father Pedro, he does our Mass on Saturdays. We Rodriguez: They are doing the best they can. are trying to preserve the culture. We are try- ing, doing the best we can, trying to learn how to communicate. I‘m really hard about Sharma: OK. One of the things I have found my people telling them, ―You really need to is some cultures do adopt that much faster learn. Step up and don‘t be known for drink- here because they‘re already prepared to ing and driving and beating up on the women communicate in English when they come in and doing stuff like that. Do something dif- here. That helps them, I think, in some ways ferent. Be known because you‘ll succeed.‖ to be able to tell what they feel. One of the Quite a few people in Forest Hill had come reasons I have found, I don‘t know about with nothing. They are big entrepreneurials. here, in some of my relatives who live in They have got very successful people. I got California or Seattle, they are told the reason one next door to my restaurant. He has got they can easily find some nanny or someone sixty-five people working under him. They to come work at the house. There are some are very business oriented. communities where people are not able to speak English. This is the job they are happy to do. That is another issue in some of the Sharma: One of the things, hard work has communities I learned of it whether it‘s yours always paid off here. You can be anything or others. We‘re immigrants. you want to be or do anything you want to do. You have that opportunity to do it. Rodriguez: Right there in Forest Hill, we had got a lot of people that are very concerned Question: [Inaudible] I really appreciate Sen- about us, the Hispanic people. We‘ve got like ora Rodriguez for talking about the tension night classes for adults when they can go and you felt like you had in the restaurant take English classes. There is a hospital in amongst the workers and the other customers, Oakdale, Louisiana that is coming next to my wealthy, American customers. I feel like restaurant. They are going to build a clinic what we are lacking here is a point of refer- for Hispanic people. They are trying to teach ence. I feel like things are discussed in broad women about. . . . We recently lost a little terms of national character, sort of like coun- kid there in Forest Hill. He died choked on a try of origin. What I don‘t get a sense of at all is where are the regions that you‘re from

133 in your countries? Where are the regions of gory which was later converted. If you were the people in your communities here from lucky, you converted into the resident status. your country? What is your point of class Over the years, then it was the families that reference in your country vs. the point of came in. You had one class that came in and class reference here? In other words, were assimilated into the higher professions here, you a shopkeeper in Mexico? Did your fam- the higher paying jobs. Then you have the ily come from similar occupational categories families coming in. The families that came in India in whichever region you‘re from? in worked anywhere because they were not Also, what about the communities here? the professional. . . . Their visa was not There‘s a shift. For example, in Mexico based on a profession. Then you have the there‘s a shift in people coming from differ- students who are doing their PhDs and by ent regions in Mexico. In India, you can talk night will be working in a McDonalds or about these immigration of students, but if I Taco Bell or anywhere that they can get a job go to New York City, I know so many to supplement the income. women that are in New York from south Over time, the communities get very Asia, not just from Bangladesh, but from In- diverse. You will find them in every profes- dia who are domestic workers, working class sion. You will find the Indians, not you, I. women and men who are H2 workers maybe My sister works at Sears, and she drives a working on shipyards or building boat plat- school bus. She had a profession, and when forms that are maybe from Tamaldahoo or she retired and decided she was going to stay Kerala or something. Those kinds of things I and help her children here, she changed her feel are important points of reference that are job. From being a professional, she is now a missing from this conversation. school bus driver and a Sears worker. Also, the communities that you mentioned, you Sharma: Let me address some of those issues will find that there are two major regions. In that you brought out which are really good. India, initially, they were represented by eve- Originally, the immigration that occurred rybody. Now the two largest communities here amongst the Indians was based on the come from, one is the south which is Andra type of professions that America needed. Pradesh. It has become the IT capital of the Your immigrant visa was really for that. world. There are colonies and buildings and There were also the students who were immi- townships that are coming up overnight. grating. It was a different class, mostly the There are kids going to college and compa- engineers in the sixties. Indian immigration nies that are going from U.S. to India and hir- started in the 1900s. They were the migrant ing people there. They are called the IT cam- farm workers that came from Punjab, and puses, Information Technology campuses. they settled in California. That was the large Yes, they are from Bangalore which is the immigration. In the sixties, it was the engi- south and Hyderabad. Even I don‘t under- neers. In the seventies, it was the physicians stand the languages that they speak. because there was a great need. There were The other large community that has no residencies filled by American medical come here is from west which is Gujarat. graduates. They needed physicians to go and These are big states. They again are a very do smaller towns. The eighties and nineties business-oriented community and very family were the IT. The later immigration was not -oriented communities. You will find one on a resident status. It was on the H1B1 that person who has come a long time ago and you mentioned. Number one was the student started a business here. Suddenly, you will category and then the temporary worker cate- find all his family members are here. If you

134 go to motels, many are owned by Gujaratis. language. The nanny will cook the same People sometimes ask me, ―Does Patel mean food that they cook. ‗motel‘?‖ No. It doesn‘t mean that. That‘s not the profession. I don‘t have the percent- Walker: There‘s a lot of change. Before, it age of motel owners who are Patels. That‘s was the fathers that went out to work. The the Gujarati community. One person owns a mothers stayed at home to take care of their motel. They help their community. They get children. The mothers weren‘t able to get out all their relatives. When they do well, and all in the work force and learn the English that people employing them, when they do well they needed to learn. I know like here in enough, they also loan them money. The Natchitoches, they‘ve helped a lot with, and banks are not giving them money. They get other regions also, also in Forest Hill. They money from their family and friends. started night classes or morning classes for the Hispanic people. The mothers can help Diwan: One thing in that is when one person also their children to learn. They started the is here and they are naturalized and they be- ESL teachers to help the Hispanics in their came a citizen, if they apply for their family classrooms so they can learn more and be in the legal way, then the brothers, sisters are able to pass their tests and be up on par with under eighteen or whatever, it‘s a line. It the American children. takes ten years to fifteen years to get the im- migration. That‘s how much wait it is right Sharma: Usually the advantage with Indians now. If they came like that, at that whether is that English is taught in all schools in India they were prepared for this world or whether from kindergarten. they were in any profession yet, they are coming because they got the opportunity at Diwan: It‘s compulsory there. We had to do that time. At that time, they will get any job. it. It‘s compulsory there. If they were to work in any business selling something or keeping. . . . . Some of the la- Walker: Some of the Hispanics that come in dies that we understand in the New York area though, it‘s not taught in their classes. They who are doing the housework are the people come in with no English at all. who have their either mothers, mother-in- laws, or someone moved here, and they can‘t do anything else because either they are not Diwan: Exactly. highly educated or cannot speak English. Then this is the kind of thing they want to Walker: The immigrants, what I see, the still do and earn some money because they family is very close-knit. Though I‘m get too bored staying alone at home or don‘t American, my five, I have five children from feel comfortable. That‘s the way I have heard Spain. They came in. I‘m ashamed to say it, it. It‘s easier in bigger cities to find help of but they didn‘t know English when they your own country, speaking person. Like I came here. It was a big sacrifice on my part mentioned, Seattle, New York, Detroit, because I had to teach them English. I re- Houston because there is so much availability member staying up until 2:00 in the morning there. just doing homework with them. Of course, I‘d have them in sports activities and every- Sharma: Also they feel comfortable with their thing else. It was a big sacrifice. children having the same kind of culture. Talking about the customs when they They know that their children will be taught a went into schools, the children tried to stay

135 with their own customs. The Americans, friendship with all those parents. Those kids they were very surprised with them and were either staying at my house, or my kids would ask me, ―How do you do it?‖ We‘d go started to go to their house, even for the after- to football games, and my children always noon. You know their culture, what they do, stayed right there with me. They didn‘t go what they believe in, what they would allow, out with other friends or anything. The and how much they will not allow. That is mothers said, ―Why do your children always why it was important for us to be friends with sit with you?‖ I said, ―That‘s the way it is. those communities as well. They‘re with me.‖ It surprised a lot of the American mothers: ―My children don‘t care Walker: Well being friends with them, I anything about me. They don‘t want to sit mean in school and everything else, yes, with me. They don‘t want to talk with me.‖ they‘re friends and everything else. The thing Immigrant children, I think, because they is just the culture of Spanish culture is they have more of a relationship with the mother don‘t spend nights away from home. They and the father, they‘re more close-knit or pre- spend it with their family. If you went some- fer to be with the family. Somebody men- where with your children, your children just tioned like the children going to somebody didn‘t take off and go running around with else‘s house to spend the night. Oh, no. somebody else. If you went with your family, That‘s not done. I know my children never you stayed with your family. spent a night away from home. My children graduated from NSU. At the cafeteria, the people thought it very Diwan: That‘s how we grew up. strange. I had five of them at one time at NSU. They would eat there together, all to- Walker: Uh-huh. That‘s how we grew up, gether. In Spain, they usually have a two- and that‘s what we taught our children. I course meal, a three-course meal, and after know like me, I‘ve got twelve grandchildren. that they have the coffee and a chit chat for I was talking with my daughter, and she said like two or three hours. That‘s what my chil- because she‘s trying to teach her culture to dren did. They would eat together, and then her children. I asked her. I said, ―What are they would sit there drinking coffee and chit you going to do when you child is invited to chatting and talking and everything. Some of somebody‘s else‘s to spend the night there?‖ the other students were looking at them, ―Are ―Oh, no. They can come over and spend the these professors, or what‘s going on here?‖ night at my house, but my children aren‘t go- They started inviting other people to their ing to go to somebody else‘s house to spend table, talking with them and everything. the night.‖ That‘s just some of the culture. I would open my house to the interna- Sharma: Did your children rebel? tional students. What I‘m seeing today is things are changing. The parents come in with the children. Now the children go to Walker: I don‘t know what‘s going on in the school. Now they are beginning to graduate homes with the Internet and everything else. and start into college and get a better educa-

tion, get better jobs. My children all gradu- Diwan: But the other thing is that is also a ated Master‘s and doctoral degrees. I have a point when my kids came to that age, that‘s son-in-law; he‘s from Guatemala. He just when I found it was necessary for us to know finished the Nurse Practitioner and is now their friends‘ parents. I developed a good working in Campti. They‘re bettering them-

136 selves. They‘re not just working for cement by my restaurant, and I‘m known as Mama or construction. They‘re bettering and going Rodriguez. They go, ―We‘re going to Mama. to college, get a better education. Their chil- Mama Rodriguez.‖ They named me that. dren will have it a lot easier. That‘s a lot of grown kids; they are twenty- four, twenty-five years old. They stop by and Sharma: Did your children have any conflict they still call me that. That‘s what I was accepting your values vs. what their friends known by. were doing? Gregory: [addressing Martha Walker] Can Walker: Yes, they do. Children do have a you talk a little bit about the language loss conflict because they have a different culture. because everybody is assimilating. I was lis- All of a sudden, it‘s like a shock. The Ameri- tening to everybody who has the same basic can people, they don‘t do things like we do experience. Martha and I grew up together. them. I guess they try to incorporate them- Do you want to tell them what you did to me? selves to the American style of living. I think it‘s the parents that they want their children Walker: What you did to me! [Laughter] to keep some of the culture. They might kind of rebel a little bit there, but as they grow Gregory: We had to [Inaudible]. older, they appreciate, and they hand it down to their children. Martha: Dr. Gregory, his family is from Fer- riday and was very close to my family. Rodriguez: Talking about what the conversa- When I was five months old, my father took tion that is going on in here about our chil- me to South America, to Bolivia. We live dren not spending the night somewhere else, I there for about five years. I came back when have all kinds of kids that still live here in I was five years old and soon lost a lot of my Natchitoches or they live in Baton Rouge or Spanish. My father told Dr. Gregory, ―To in New Orleans, or wherever they are, they Martita, you only have to speak English, adopted me, and I‘m to them Momma Rodri- Spanish, because she‘s forgetting her Span- guez. I have never let my children go any- ish.‖ He‘d come and visit us, and he‘d start where else and spend the night. I was a sin- speaking all this Spanish to me. I was just gle parent. I kept my kids at my house. I furious. I was so mad because I didn‘t under- told them, everybody can come and spend the stand what he was saying. Years later, he night here. We closed in the garage, and we helped me get my children into NSU. I made a big room right there. We put Nin- would tell my children, ―Now, make sure you tendo; we put whatever. I remember that I go see Dr. Gregory and speak all the Spanish used to go and put pillows under everybody‘s you can to him.‖ He said, ―I don‘t know what head, get up at 3:00 in the morning because they are saying.‖ they were playing Nintendo and games and whatever. It looked like drunk people be- Gregory: Irma asks me sometimes, ―Do you cause there were empty cans of 7-ups and still speak Spanish?‖ I have to tell her now Sprites and whatever else all over the place. I that I know she knows Martha. It‘s Martha‘s would tiptoe trying to not wake anybody up, fault! going and fix everybody‘s head onto the pil- lows and cooking chicken wings at 3:00 in Diwan: Interestingly, my mother-in-law, she the morning, macaroni and cheese, stuff like expects my both sons to speak in Hindi when that. Everybody until today, those kids stop 137 she talks to them on the phone. Mostly she‘s English to them, to help them out. Now with here. When she‘s away, she wants to talk on my grandchildren, they try to speak Spanish the phone. When she talks, they will leave to the children at home so they‘ll be bilin- our room because they feel hesitant because gual. Most of them, most of them are, out of of their accent. They can speak, they com- twelve. If they don‘t speak the language, municate, but they‘re not sure if anyone else they are learning. They can understand a lot listened would they laugh. That is a hesita- of it. They are still real young yet. tion they have when they speak Hindi be- cause they are not speaking every day. Diwan: Actually, it is becoming opposite now from what you were saying. Your kids Rodriguez: I can tell you a long, long time were almost embarrassed for mom to speak ago when my children were like five and six Spanish whereas the world has changed so years old, seven, Tony and Eddie, we used to much now. Now, we have so many Spanish go to Wal-Mart. When I first came to Louisi- people here that if we don‘t know Spanish, ana, I came in 1983. I was three months we are going to have a hard time. pregnant with Tony. There were no Spanish For example, my son was doing resi- speaking people whatsoever over here. I re- dency in UT [University of Texas]. He member I used to go to Wal-Mart. They did- started to learn Spanish because he did not n‘t have any avocados; they didn‘t have any feel comfortable seeing any patients who cilantro; they didn‘t have any tortillas. They only spoke Spanish, and they had to call the didn‘t have anything. I would talk Spanish to translator every time. He found that it was a my kids, and they would say, ―Sh! Mom, waste of money, a waste of time. He wasn‘t don‘t talk like that. People are going to laugh getting the exact diagnosis that he could if he at you.‖ They used to be kind of embarrassed could clearly communicate with them di- about it. I tried to tell them, ―No. This is our rectly. Last year, he finished up. He called heritage.‖ That‘s when I started talking to me. He said, ―Mom.‖ He‘s carrying the them about we have to keep our culture. Spanish little book in the pocket all the time. We do like Rocking Baby Jesus on He learned fluently now because he had to do Christmas. We still do that. Every year we it because he said he never felt comfortable do that. Now they like it. They look forward giving any information to a patient unless he to the day. I remember when Eddie was in knew exactly what they were trying to say. 2nd grade in Ferriday. I built a piñata for him, In translation you lose something. and I took it to the school. All the kids had a blast with that. After that they liked their Walker: You lose a lot. birthday parties to have a piñata. To have our food that we cook and our customs that we Diwan: I think it‘s becoming now that it‘s have, that‘s how I raised them. Now they‘re going to be more and more need for profes- very proud of it, and I‘m glad I did what I did sionals, doctors. Otherwise, they will not be for them. able to help them.

Walker: I know when my children were in Walker: When I was working as ESL, Eng- grade school, and we were here, I would al- lish as Second Language, to the Hispanic ways speak Spanish to them in public when community, I would tell the children. I said, we went to shopping or stores. That way, ―Whatever you do, do not forget your Span- nobody could understand if I‘m fussing at ish because that is going to be your bread of them or not. At home, I would try to speak

138 tomorrow to be bilingual and know Spanish. Diwan: In higher education it‘s very com- You‘ll be able to get a job anywhere.‖ plex.

Diwan: I can clearly say that. That‘s what Walker: It‘s hard. My first husband was a has happened in our area. Spaniard, and I spoke Spanish and English. My children, when I was living in Spain, I Walker: That‘s what I always told them. spoke only Spanish. It was hard for me to Some of them, they did almost forget their switch rapidly English-Spanish, Spanish- Spanish. I would always try to encourage and English all the time. Everybody fussed at tell their parents also, ―Look. Make sure you me, ―You have to teach them English. You speak Spanish to your children at home so have to speak to them in English.‖ I just they don‘t forget the language.‖ couldn‘t do it. Now, when I came to the United States, I just spoke English to them. Diwan: Most Hispanic communities are also Once they had learned their English, then I known for family values. That‘s one thing I would do both languages. Some of my chil- hear again and again is they are always very dren are married to Americans. My daughter close. is married to an American. She doesn‘t really speak Spanish to her children. My old- est son is married to one from the Canary Is- Walker: They are very close-knit. lands, a lady from the Canary Islands. Since

they both speak Spanish, their children are Rodriguez: I always told my children, ―God more bilingual and they speak Spanish all the first, family second, and the job is third.‖ time. My daughter that lives here, he is from Guatemalan descent. His parents were from Sharma: You mentioned loss of language Guatemala. He does speak Spanish, fluent now. India is a nation of twenty-two major Spanish, but she doesn‘t speak Spanish all the languages. Forget about the dialects and the time to the children. She‘ll speak it whenever regional languages or dialects. What is hap- she thinks about it. They‘re not as fluent in pening is if the two parents come from the their Spanish, but they understand a lot of the same region and speak the language to each Spanish. other, however much you teach a language, language is, actually, an ongoing thing. You Diwan: You had a question about where we pick it up. You‘re not just taught. You hear came from and what our backgrounds are. I the words; you hear the nuances, the mean- think we should address that. I came from ings. You understand. That‘s an ongoing Punjab in India. I grew up there. My hus- thing. It‘s easy for them to learn or under- band came from New Delhi which is very stand a language if two parents come from close to that. Caste, you mentioned caste and the same area either of India or here or any- what background, professions and caste we where. Now more and more people are get- came from. My father was an attorney and ting married that belong to two different ar- elected member of the legislative assembly, eas. I tried to teach my language. My hus- MLA they called it there. He was a social band doesn‘t speak the same language as I worker. Caste-wise, we were from the Brah- do. I speak his language. When we met, we min family. I don‘t know if that answers what never communicated in his language. We you were asking. communicated in English. We were speaking English to each other even at home. Question: I wasn‘t asking caste per se or just

139 social standing. home; he ate. He attended his clients or phone calls and went to bed. She was the one Diwan: You said class. who actually raised all the kids. I wear her ring all the time to remind me what a Question: That‘s interesting. Was that the mother‘s influence in life can be. It is a very, state level assembly or national? very respectful thing to me.

Diwan: It was both. First he was in the state, Gregory: I think it‘s interesting when we and then he was in the national. We had the have a panel from the New Populations visits from the President and Prime Minister which is Maida‘s term, who are all women. frequently in our house because of his in- [Laughter] volvement in politics. He was the first elected official after Indian independence -- Diwan: We made more effort to come on the the first election in the fifties. We had a very weekend. large family. We are ten brothers and sisters. I‘m the ninth in the family. His goal and mis- Gregory: I helped Shane contact the Latino sion in life was that everybody in our family portion of the panel. In both cases, they‘re should have higher education. Everybody very important to maintaining the culture. In did. A few of us came for education purpose Martha‘s case, and even in my family, that‘s to the US. One of my brothers came to the the case. Like Irma said for the whole Forest Mayo Clinic to do post-research work on the Hill community, they send you to her for eve- cancer. That‘s how some of them moved rything. Maybe we should talk a little bit here. That‘s the kind of profession mostly in about men‘s roles in the community. our family was. My mother was uneducated, totally Diwan: I think that role that one of the books uneducated. That is the beauty of the family explains pretty well is Men Are from Mars, I was going to say. She never went to school, Women Are from Venus. I think women have but the times she grew up in early 1900s, they more kindness and friendship and cultural did not allow the women out of the home to things that they want to be involved in than go school. She learned whatever she learned men. I can‘t generalize all men, but most In- at home. If she were living today, she would dian men, we have, they are professionals, be probably 100 or plus. That‘s why. We‘re the ones we are, at least, mixing with. They talking about the time they had early mar- are into their professions, and they come riage and when they had no schools for home, they read a book, they do gardening. women. They were just home schooled be- They do what they want to do, but not neces- cause the circumstances in India were such. sarily going to open a non-profit. They are She was the one behind every child who went involved in the existing. . . . Chandan‘s hus- to college, who went to higher education be- band is retired, so he is involved in several cause she did inspire them, took care of them, organizations that he chose to serve on. This and made everybody go through that. That is the kind of thing we are doing because I was her goal. She was a stay home mom. am still working. We got in touch with My dad never was home. He didn‘t even Shane because I work at LSU, so it is a know what schools and colleges we were at- higher education related acquaintance we tending at certain times because he was so made. I don‘t know if you have invited any much in politics, social work, and his law Indian men or any from our local Commu- practice. He hardly had time to. He came

140 nity. As you see, Bobby Jindal, his back- doing, and I had to come home and do the ground is Indian. There are men who are out cooking and the cleaning. Everybody used to there doing things. I don‘t know what really a say all the time, ―Oh you have such a won- man‘s role in this cultural thing. I think derful husband. He does the cooking, the women are more into it always. We share cleaning.‖ Whereas the woman who did all more with each other, what‘s happening, how that, nobody said she was so wonderful be- you are raising [your] child, how I‘m doing cause she cooked and cleaned and catered to it. I think women take that control in the her husband. house. Diwan: It‘s expected from her. Sharma: Let me give a little perspective on men‘s roles. I‘m going to talk about Indian Walker: It‘s how the wife trains the husband. men. Sharma: Or how a mother trains her son. Diwan: Especially our generation. It‘s differ- ent now. Walker: I made the mistake. I made the mis- take of teaching my sons how to clean their Sharma: It‘s different. So I‘m going to go room or clean the house and cook. Now, my over the changes. Indian men were raised by sons are the ones who clean the house, cook, women and the traditional role was like here and take care of the children. I made a mis- and everywhere else. The man was the bread- take there. winner; the woman was the stay-at-home mom and the nurturer. She took care of the Sharma: Both boys and girls are working home, and he took care of the outside. The professionals. The Indian girls are looking for roles were clear cut. When we came, when I men who will cook: They say, ―I don‘t cook; came here and got married to a man I had I don‘t this.‖ One of the things they are look- known for several years, a different cultural ing for in a husband is, first question, ―Do background. He was from the north; I was you cook?‖ My nephews all cook because from the south – different language, every- they were trained to cook. thing different. When my mother-in-law first came, at that time I was a physician, and my Diwan: Your son-in-law cooks. husband was staying at home. He had lost his job, his business. She really had a hard time relating to this: her son was doing the Sharma: My son-in-law cooks, but my laundry. Her son was ironing, or her son was daughter also cooks. Both my daughters like cooking. She would be in tears. Here I was to cook. It‘s like if your son cooks and his this terrible daughter-in-law. Had the roles wife doesn‘t, it‘s like, ―Oh, my God. What a been reversed, which were reversed in most wife he‘s got.‖ If you have a daughter whose other Indian residents. My colleagues were husband cooks, it‘s like, ―My son-in-law is so all Indian men whose wives doted on them wonderful. He cooks.‖ Different standards, when they‘d come home after a hard night at but things have changed over the years. work or residency. They‘d have their meal ready, the cup of tea ready. Like she said, Walker: I think a lot of changes . . . . What they would put their feet up and read the happened was that when the woman went out book. I had a hard time relating to it because into the workforce also. Both of them come I was doing exactly what my colleagues were home tired, so they have to half the workload 141 at home. Rodriguez: Is that what?

Sharma: I think equality is coming more in Rasmussen: Could you take one second, the family. Irma? Could you take a little bit and talk about that that you do for your daughter? Walker: Equality. The Quinceañera? I‘m mispronouncing that so horribly that you can‘t understand it. Sharma: Call it whatever. The women have realized that they are equal, and the men have Rodriguez: OK the Quinceañera is like when had no choice but to accept it and say, ―OK. a girl turns fifteen years old and becomes a These are not clear cut demarcated jobs.‖ young woman, they celebrate it. It‘s a big You know what has changed? It‘s not just party. It‘s like a wedding without the groom. here. In India, we look at the young couples The father comes and does the first dance in India. The women don‘t cook anymore. with the girl. This is like the very traditional old, old fashioned party. The father is carry- Diwan: Because they‘re working, too. ing the high heels in his hand. The girl comes with a pretty, prom-like dress. He puts Sharma: So they are not coming here and the heels on the girls, and they give her. . . . changing; they are changing back home. They do the first dance. That is when she is Those parent who try to teach them to teach allowed to wear makeup. They give her the them and say, ―No,w you girls have to do last doll. That‘s the last doll. Momma comes housework‖ are few. We were brought up and gives the last doll to her. They celebrate that a girl needs to know how to cook, to sew, it with a big cake like a wedding cake. They to clean, how to take care of the child. To- just put the little girl on top with a pretty day‘s young girls in India are different. dress. It used to be either pink or blue or yel- low, pastel colors. Now it‘s hot pink and hot blue. It changed through the years. Diwan: They‘re working. In Forest Hill, it‘s a very tradition-

oriented community. We have mariachi Sharma: They‘re working. bands coming from Houston, from wherever Dallas or San Antonio. My daughter, she re- Diwan: They start as soon as they leave col- cently got married. I said recently, two years lege. They‘re working; they get a job. ago. We had her wedding at the civic center in Alexandria. We flew a mariachi band of Sharma: At the same salary level as the man, fifteen girls. It was a really nice deal. All the sometimes better. So they say, ―I‘m not going people were impressed. It was a really nice to do all this. This is not my work. I am wedding. We had all traditional food, and equal in all terms with a man.‖ believe it or not, I cooked [it] all. I did the groom‘s cake and the wedding cake. We did- Rasmussen: I want to thank all of the partici- n‘t have any sleep for three days. It was pants today. We brought up so many issues really nice. and so many wonderful. . . . There was a lot more I wanted to ask. We didn‘t even talk Rasmussen: You went out so much that I‘ve about the Quinceañera that you hold for your learned about this because I read about it in daughter, Irma. I wanted to be sure and ask the paper. about that. We‘ve kind of run out of time.

142 Rodriguez: It was in the newspaper, yes. It ture with the American culture. Americans was really nice. It was really, really nice. It share their culture with the immigrant cul- was an outstanding wedding. I‘m proud that ture. we could cater our culture and show. We have so many customers. We have to make a Sharma: One of the things I wanted to share big wedding because everybody wanted to be with y‘all was we talk about the immigrants invited. We wanted to invite everybody, so who come; they think of themselves as, ―I‘m we had a big wedding. I was just happy and Indian. I‘m Spanish. I am Mexican. I am pleased that we could show a little bit of our this.‖ I have to quote my young daughter culture all in one time on one deal for every- who, I think, was in second grade at that body. Everybody just talked for days. Until time. She would pronounce some names that today, everybody comes to the restaurant, and weren‘t said the way I would say. She would they talk about the pretty girls with the maria- say, ―That‘s how he says his name, and that‘s chi band. They did a show. One of my what we call him.‖ Some other name. I brothers came from Mexico, and he got up would say, ―Is he Indian? Is she Indian? Is he with the mariachi band and sang a few songs. Filipino?‖ She said this to me, ―Mom, in my It was just all nice. class, everybody is American.‖ That to me, I‘ll never forget. I never think of anybody Sharma: And I am getting so hungry just now as where they originally came from. hearing about it. This young child saw everybody as Ameri- can. The other funny thing which she said Walker: I think today with the culture, be- was, you know, out of the mouths of babes fore the Americans didn‘t communicate well comes out the truth. with the immigrants. They kind of shunned In our house, she and her sister were them, kept them away. Now, things have born here. They had an American passport. I changed so much. The Americans are going had changed my citizenship. She said to out. There‘s more travel; they are going to somebody, ―In my house, everybody is other countries. They‘re learning more. American except my father.‖ She did not see, When they come back to the United States. . . she didn‘t think she was Indian or I was In- . Let‘s say you went to Mexico for a vaca- dian. We all had an American passport except tion or whatever, when you come back to the her father who later changed. After a few United States and you run into somebody years, he changed his citizenship. from Mexico, you‘re more willing to talk to The third was, my friend‘s daughter them and share that culture that you learned was called Nisha Basu. Her father was In- over there, their culture. dian; her mother was local. She looked like a white American girl. She looks, she‘s Polish Rodriguez: And they went and ate something decent, Italian decent, with a name like there, and they come and they ask you, ―Can Nisha, which is Indian and Basu which is In- you do this? Do you sell this? Where can I dian. She was going to India and wanted to find this?‖ do some volunteer work. I called my friend and said, ―Can you give her something to do?‖ She said, ―Oh, Nisha Basu? OK, she Walker: Because of the travel and the Inter- will be probably knowing Bengali, and does net, the television, the communications, she know Hindi?‖ I said, ―Don‘t be surprised Americans today are more willing to share when you see Nisha Basu. She is as white the different cultures – the immigrants‘ cul- American as you get.‖ Sometimes the stereo-

143 types that we think about when we hear a Rasmussen: Yeah. name or feel something or how we see our- selves, it‘s all a mixture. Owens: I just wanted to share with you what we found. Some groups have been here for Rasmussen: Yeah. Thank you everyone. I many years while other arrived recently . . . . wanted to turn the last minutes over to Our criteria were that the community had to Maida. Maida, you‘ve done so much work have foreign-born members. The oldest group with the New Populations. Could you tell us is the Cubans who started coming in ‘65. about that? Some of these communities have been com- ing all along. Filipinos, there are seven gen- Owens: Yes. My current initiative started in erations of Filipino immigrants in Louisiana. 2006. Basically, the Division of the Arts had Dance tends to be, and as you‘ll see with the never really reached out to the all the immi- Chinese Yang Gwang dance troupe that‘s go- grant and refugee communities. They asked ing to perform next, dance is frequently very me to come up with a strategy to start to in- important to many of the groups because it teract. You ask a folklorist, and what do you provides a [way for them to socialize and do? The first thing you do is identify and maintain their culture] . . . . Recognize peo- document. That was intended to be the first ple? Oh, and I want to point out . . . . phase. Susan has some handouts. The first phase ended up lasting five years which was Diwan & Sharma: We know [unclear] not the original intent. The second phase is just now beginning where we‘re mentoring Owens: I want to emphasize that everything, some groups to integrate them into the Arts all these images are here in Louisiana. When network if they choose to be. That‘s a list of I‘ve shown this same slide show elsewhere, all the different projects that we‘ve done. I people assume that I‘ve traveled all over the had Federal monies that could only be used world: ―Oh, you‘ve been to India.‖ No. for this project, so they didn‘t get cut. The There are three temples in Baton Rouge, just project is continuing. in Baton Rouge. They have no idea there are Basically I put out a call for propos- three temples. That‘s just the Hindu commu- als, and people responded. These are the nity in Baton Rouge. ones that ended up getting funded over the All the different groups, and y‘all last five years. I have a PowerPoint. Could touched on this with your personal stories, you start it? It‘s just images of what the re- that one of the major lessons I‘ve learned search has revealed. The immigrants that are with this project is that you cannot make as- in Louisiana are primarily Asians and Lati- sumptions about one group based on another. nos. We are not a refugee settlement site for One size does not fit all. Every single group the United States. We‘re not one of the major has a unique circumstance: why they came, ones. We don‘t tend to have the Bosnians when they came, under what conditions. and the Rwandans, all the groups that you You‘re talking about Hondurans who left af- read about in the paper that are coming over ter Hurricane Mitch vs. professionals such as as political refugees. The five most numerous the Indians. Just an incredible range of cir- groups that we have are Vietnamese, Cubans, cumstances. Hondurans, Mexicans, and Indians. All of them, as you‘ve seen today, are wanting to pass on important parts of their [Referring to PowerPoint] It‘s on nine-second culture. Some become more symbolic. Oth- relay. Is it? ers, it‘s just because they want to eat the 144 food. The food is definitely the most resis- that they can go to find out more about New tant to change. That is absolutely, with eve- Populations, isn‘t there? ryone, that is the number one tradition most likely to get passed on. Crafts are definitely Owens: Yeah. In the handout I passed out, the most challenging for a couple of reasons: the louisianafolklife.org website has all this the amount of time it takes to do crafts. Also information that we‘ve documented. the function of the craft has changed, and it‘s more about nostalgia and memories, more so Rasmussen: It‘s a beautiful site. They have than you need a doily. I could go on. different pages and articles about many of We are continuing the project. It is these different communities and great full- Federal funds. How much more documenta- color shots. It‘s really worth checking out. tion continues depends on funding levels in Thank you so much for coming. To our par- the future. We‘ve been focusing on the Baton ticipants, thank you so much. Rouge, New Orleans, and Lafayette commu- nities for a couple of reasons. That is where Owens: I really should address that. Chandan most of the immigrant groups live in Louisi- is asking about our funding. You‘ll find at ana. Outside of that region, it‘s primarily ur- the table back there a blue handout. The ban communities. The Mexicans are the only Louisiana Division of the Arts funding has ones that are significantly in rural settings. I been very significantly cut this year. We‘re could go on and on about New Populations, also doing a strategic plan for the next four to but I think it‘s time to share a performance five years. We‘re going to have a visioning with you. for folklife. There‘s two ways to participate – a workshop and an online survey, so please, Rasmussen: Yeah. The Sunshine Chinese please participate in that. Dancers. Please stick around. This is going to be a great treat. There‘s a great website

145 Sunshine Chinese Dancers

Guiyuan Wang, Xiaomei Seal, and Chinese Dancers

Sunshine Chinese Dancers

The Yang Guang (Sunshine) Chinese Dance Troupe

Beginning with four dancers in 2005, the Yang Guang (Chinese for sunshine) Chinese Dance Troupe has since blossomed to almost thirty dancers. The dancers come from all walks of life – students and housewives as well as government and corporate employees. Through their styl- ized performances of form and movement, traditional dancers literally embody aspects of their culture in ways that words alone cannot convey.

The Troupe graciously performed Chinese and Tibetan dances at the Symposium. Elements of the choreography for one of these dances, ―Tapping the Song,‖ date back to the Wei, Jin, and Southern Dynasties (220 – 589 A.D.). The performance of these dances is a combination of se- rious play and joyous work. Far more than enabling continuity of a part of their traditional cul- ture, the Troupe‘s performances breathe life into old forms. These dances become representa- tions of the power of the folk to display in song and movement some of the oldest universal yearnings of humanity, such as the desire for love and marriage, and the expression of the joy of life itself. Old forms are revitalized and transformed into a line of cultural communication and transmission.

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