Annotated Internal Collated Commentary 2011-6 Letter Unto the Ansteorran College of Heralds, does Eirik Halfdanarson, Acting Bordure Herald send warm Greetings! Please find the Annotated Internal Collated Commentary for the month of June 2011 containing decisions made at the decision meeting on July 16th.
Yours in Service,
Eirik Halfdanarson Bordure Herald
This letter contains commentary from the following people: Andrewe Bawldwyn Gunnvor silfraharr Tostig Logiosophia Daniel de Lincoln Magnus Eirik Halfdanarson Gawain of Miskbridge Emma de Fetherstan Reis ap Tuder Leonor Ruiz de Lison Adelaide de Beaumont Alys Langton Tigern Vyolante Drago do Porto Jillian Saint Andre Aron ulfr' Minna Devaux Þorkell ǫlfúss Wihtric Wihtmunding
1. Adelaide de Bourbon (Adlersrhue, Shire of ) Resubmitted Badge. Fieldless, sable incensed panther with a vert fleur-de-lis in jessant-de-lys.
Submission History: Name Fast-track accepted 5/01 (AG 9/01) 1 Laurel registered 9/01 Badge ILoI 8/03 1 Kingdom accepted 10/03 (AG 11/03) Laurel returned 2/04 Documentation Provided: *Asterisk’s note: blazon was sent via email from submitter.+
Comment by Andrewe Bawldwyn (Star) on 2011/06/01 14:02:26 CDT: Previous Return:
Adelaide de Bourbon. Badge. (Fieldless) A panther's head argent incensed gules jessant-de-lis vert.
The panther's head was blazoned, both on the submission form and on the Letter of Intent, as sable, but it is a medium pencil grey, somewhat closer to argent than to sable. Because the charge is clearly not sable, but equally clearly does not appear to be intended to be argent, it is being returned for clarification of the submitter's intent.
[Adelaide de Bourbon 2004/02 R-Ansteorra]
Comment by Emma de Fetherstan (Sable Roundel) on 2011/07/03 15:03:05 CDT: This is a test comment, pls ignore
Comment by Reis ap Tuder (ACE Coder!) on 2011/07/05 21:44:38 CDT: Last edited on 2011/07/06 21:52:24 CDT here we go again!
Comment by Gunnvor silfraharr on 2011/06/01 15:56:24 CDT: Last edited on 2011/06/04 16:23:02 CDT Annotated Internal Collated Commentary 2011-6 Letter I make this: Fieldless, a panther sable jessant-de-lys vert.
The fleur-de-lys center top spike is smooshed down so far it's difficult to identify this as a fleur-de-lys. Consider the jessant-de-lys examples in Image #1 below. The first one is "a Continental panther azure jessant-de-lys argent". The middle is a leopard jessant-de-lys, and the third is "an owl per pale gules and azure jessant-de-lys argent".
Panthers are, by definition, incensed, and it really should also be blowing flame out its ears. This is specifically an English panther, Continental panthers have horns, and the head and forelimbs of an eagle. Image #2 below has the supporting panthers from the Guild of Dyers in London, and below are two renderings of the Continental panther used in Styria.
1. 2.
Comment by Tostig Logiosophia (Eclipse) on 2011/06/01 21:08:49 CDT: Last edited on 2011/06/10 18:38:40 CDT [Badge] Consider the reblazon "(Fieldless) A panther's face sable enflamed gules, jessant-de-lys vert."
[Edit 6/08] The proposed reblazon is wrong. With no spots, the face is that of a natural panther per the Nov 2006 Cover Letter "... The unmodified term panther refers to the English monster: a maneless lion, incensed and colorfully spotted. Both the spots and flames are part of the definition; but the spots' tincture doesn't count for difference. "The term German panther or Continental panther refers to the monster as described by Pastoureau: usually horned, usually with eagle's forefeet, often long- necked, and always incensed. Its definition does not include spots. "The term natural panther refers to a great cat as found in nature, a maneless lion - also blazoned in period as an ounce, and in the Society as a catamount (mountain lion). "In terms of difference, we henceforth will grant a CD between a standard (i.e. English) panther and a Continental panther; and either monster will have a CD from an (unspotted, unincensed) natural panther..." http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2006/11/06-11cl.html (A proposed reblazon using the phrase natural panther's face deleted 6/10 in favor of a reblazon using the phrase ounce's face is elsewhere in response to a comment by Daniel[End edit]
I share Gunnvor's concerns of identifiability. The fleur-de-lys needs to be a symmetrical shape rather than the assymetrical shapes of a cap and beard. Further, the flames would be more identfiable if they were tinctured proper. These concerns, however, may suffice with an artist's note -- I knew from the emblazon what charges and tinctures were intended.
Mutiply clear versus "(Fieldless) A natural panther's face argent enflamed proper, jessant of a cross crosslet fitchy sable." (Dulcinea Margarita Teresa Velàzquez de Ribera [for House of the Cross and Panther], Badge, March 2007). No other panther faces or vert fleurs-de-lys observed at http://oanda.sca.org/oanda_desc.cgi?p=HEAD%2dJESSANT%2dDE%2dLYS
Comment by Gunnvor silfraharr on 2011/06/01 21:53:41 CDT: Given that the Styrian panthers are blowing solid gules flame from every orifice, I'm not too concerned about the flames being solid gules here.
All heraldic panthers blow flame from ears and mouth (and pizzle and anus at times), so I think you don't have to say it's incensed or enflamed unless you are specifying the tincture of the flames. I would think we'd treat that as an artistic detail, just as we do with the eyes and tongue.
I have not conquered the skillset necessary to search for conflicts, but I would look at all "jessant" charges. All heads guardant kind of look like all other heads guardant, so a leopard, panther, bear, lion, catamount, or wolf would probably tend to look a lot alike if ther are jessant-de-lys.
Comment by Tostig Logiosophia (Eclipse) on 2011/06/01 22:15:08 CDT: [Badge] Ears, thank you. I only remembered the legend of the healing breath on which the heraldic charge was based and missed that entirely. With that identifying element missing, consider a return for redraw under RfS VII.7b (Reconstruction Requirement) http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/rfs.html#7.7b. (As for the blazon, I followed the registered pattern from 2007. The url links to jessant-de-lys)
Comment by Gunnvor silfraharr on 2011/06/04 16:21:11 CDT: Took a swat at a redraw.
1. 2. Annotated Internal Collated Commentary 2011-6 Letter Comment by Daniel de Lincoln on 2011/06/08 19:26:36 CDT: Last edited on 2011/06/08 20:16:00 CDT Gunnvor's redraw is so so much better. Adelaide, do you accept that one?
What's the source of the first image #1? Is there a date for it? I'd guess the modern English College of Arms.
I wonder whether you could combine jessant + panther -- it seemed like a combination like "embattled rayonny" (this latter I think is unregisterable). Hence my wondering about a period example.
There is only one panther.*jessant registered, Mihangel Dafydd o'r Aran, July 1994, "(Fieldless) A panther's face argent enflamed proper, jessant of a cross crosslet fitchy sable."
But the Laurel return in 2004, http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2004/02/04-02lar.html#9 , didn't mention this as a cause for return. Typically, Laurel mentions all possible causes for return. If a submitter fixes all the problems identified by Laurel, but the original submission had a problem Laurel didn't mention, Laurel will usually register the resubmission.
For the record, I'll note these two precedents from http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2009/03/09-03lar.html#162 : Simon Montgumery and Margaret Hepburn of Ardrossan, (Fieldless) A skull argent jessant-de-lys gules. "Precedent says that feline heads jessant-de-lys are a single charge ... At this time, we are extending this ruling to all jessant arrangements. There is, therefore, a CD for the fieldless design and a CD for the change of type of primary charge, from skull jessant-de-lys to skull-wearing-hat. ... The use of any head other than a lion's or leopard's head jessant-de-lys remains a step from period practice; non-mammal heads jessant-de-lys remain unregisterable."
So Gwenllian Longeley or I are wondering whether a panther's head is a leopard's head. But unless there's another candidate Step From Period Practice, a question of return doesn't arise.
Comment by Tostig Logiosophia (Eclipse) on 2011/06/08 20:37:15 CDT: Last edited on 2011/06/10 18:33:29 CDT [Badge] @ Daniel and Gwenllian. According to the November 2006 Cover Letter "The unmodified term panther refers to the English monster: a maneless lion, incensed and colorfully spotted. Both the spots and flames are part of the definition; but the spots' tincture doesn't count for difference....The term natural panther refers to a great cat as found in nature, a maneless lion - also blazoned in period as an ounce, and in the Society as a catamount (mountain lion)." Without the spots, the submission is a natural panther and a feline.
(Edit 6/10) Consider the (3rd and final attempt at) reblazon "(Fieldless) An ounce's face sable incensed gules, jessant-de-lys vert." based on the following Laurel reblazon:
"Dulcinea Margarita Teresa Velàzquez de Ribera. Reblazon of badge for House of the Cross and Panther. (Fieldless) A natural panther's face argent enflamed proper, jessant of a cross crosslet fitchy sable. "Registered in April 1999 with the blazon (Fieldless) A panther's face argent enflamed proper, jessant of a cross crosslet fitchy sable, the cat lacks the spots of an heraldic panther. We have reblazoned the cat as a natural panther instead of an ounce to retain the cant. The panther is not really incensed as the flames are coming from its ears and nose; it is not breathing flames. Please see the November 2006 Cover Letter for a discussion on the difference between English, Continental, and natural panthers." (LoAR, March 2007)
Comment by Gunnvor silfraharr on 2011/06/11 16:03:24 CDT: Last edited on 2011/06/11 16:35:25 CDT
Image #1 is a 2004 Canadian grant for Claire Boudreau, from The Canadian Heraldic Authority: The Public Register of Arms, Flags and Badges of Canada. The Canadian example is a Continental panther (it has horns).
Based on the Nov 2006 Cover Letter (below) it appears that we can blazon this as "(Fieldless): a Continental panther's face sable jessant-de-lys argent". Because the cover letter says that Continental panthers are sometimes hornless, and since it has no spots it can't be an English panther. I think that since the ruling mentioned that panthers always blow flame from ears and mouth that it goes without saying, and unless it's some weird color I'd expect to treat it like blazoning tongues and claws.
The November 2006 Cover Letter has:
From Wreath: Panthers
A submission this month raised the question of the default head posture for heraldic panthers. The question is complicated by the fact that there are two different monsters going by the name of panther - one English, one Continental - which the Society has tried to treat the same. It's further complicated by the fact that the Society has had conflicting defaults for panthers over the years.
The English-style panther is "depicted rather like the natural animal, but covered with spots of various colours and with flames issuing from its mouth and ears" (Dennys' Heraldic Imagination, p.143). Period examples can be found in Dennys, p.143; Woodcock & Robinson's Oxford Guide to Heraldry, plate 16, dated 1616; and Marks & Payne's British Heraldry, p.39, dated 1604. Some examples are rampant, some are passant. In almost all period cases we've found, the English panther is guardant and colorfully spotted - and the one exception, which is colorfully streaked, we're prepared to accept as an aberration.
There is more variation in the depiction of the Continental (or German) panther. Pastoureau (Traité d'Héraldique, p. 156) describes it as "a composite creature, having the body of a lion, the head and horns of a bull, the front feet of a griffin, the back feet of an ox or lion. It is rampant and belches flames from its mouth Annotated Internal Collated Commentary 2011-6 Letter and ears (une créature composite, ayant le corps du lion, la tête et les cornes du taureau, les pattes antérieures du griffon, les pattes postérieures du b{oe}uf ou du lion. Elle est ram-pante et vomit des flames par la bouche et les oreilles)." Examples from the Zurich Roll, c.1340 (#20) and the European Armorial, c.1450 (p.37), support this description. But the panther's head is occasionally that of an eagle (Cotta Codex, 1459, plate 6), and its neck is frequently elongated. None of the period examples were spotted.
Hitherto, the Society has granted no difference between these types of panther:
[Returning Vert, a German panther rampant Or breathing flames gules, maintaining a fleur-de-lys argent] Conflict with... Per chevron rayonny erminois and sable, in base a panther rampant Or, incensed proper. There's a CD for the change to the field, but since the move ... is forced, nothing for position on the field, nor can we see granting a CD between continental and insular panthers. [3/94, p.19]
But as with the English chimera versus the German chimera, the only thing the two types of panther have in common is the name... and possibly the flaming breath. We are therefore overturning the 1994 precedent, and ruling as follows:
The unmodified term panther refers to the English monster: a maneless lion, incensed and colorfully spotted. Both the spots and flames are part of the definition; but the spots' tincture doesn't count for difference. The term German panther or Continental panther refers to the monster as described by Pastoureau: usually horned, usually with eagle's forefeet, often long-necked, and always incensed. Its definition does not include spots. The term natural panther refers to a great cat as found in nature, a maneless lion - also blazoned in period as an ounce, and in the Society as a catamount (mountain lion).
In terms of difference, we henceforth will grant a CD between a standard (i.e. English) panther and a Continental panther; and either monster will have a CD from an (unspotted, unincensed) natural panther.
As for their default postures, the Pictorial Dictionary states that a panther "is guardant by English default... [The Continental panther] faces dexter by German default; the SCA follows German practice rather than English, since the English posture can easily be blazoned explicitly." On the other hand, the Glossary of Terms (under Table 4, Defaults) states that the panther is "Guardant; body posture must be specified." Precedent states:
[a panther sejant head to dexter argent] Table 3 of the Glossary of Terms indicates that the panther (which is to say, the default "English-style" heraldic panther) is guardant by default. As a result we must explicitly state that this panther has its head to dexter. Note that the Continental panther does not have an SCA default posture.
Please note that the discussions of the panther's default posture in the Pictorial Dictionary in the SCA have been superceded [sic] by the listing in the Glossary, which has been available for some years. [Katerina McGilledoroughe, 08/03, A-Æthelmearc]
There are 200 entries in the Online Armorial with the term "panther". Of these, the majority are either blazoned as natural panthers or have the head posture explicitly blazoned. Of the remaining armory, most are not guardant. As most of the registered panthers follow the default mentioned in the Pictorial Dictionary, rather than that currently listed in the Glossary of Terms, we are restoring the default to the German practice (not guardant). This will be reflected in the next revision of Table 4 of the Glossary of Terms.
Henceforth, all heraldic panthers are not-guardant (i.e., facing to dexter or sinister, as appropriate) by default. If the panther is guardant, it must be explicitly blazoned. The body posture has no default, and must be specified.
Over the next several months, we will be checking all the emblazons of the registered panthers, reblazoning as necessary to distinguish the Continental panthers and those which are guardant. While reblazoning, the term ounce, a heraldic term for a maneless lion that dates from 1591, rather than natural panther has been used when the cat is incensed (but lacking the spots of a heraldic panther) so as to avoid possible confusion in the blazon between a panther and a natural panther.
Comment by Magnus on 2011/06/12 20:54:01 CDT: [Badge] No conflict found.
Comment by Eirik Halfdanarson (Bordure Herald) on 2011/06/20 14:38:56 CDT: Last edited on 2011/06/20 14:39:18 CDT I received the redraw here from Tostig this weekend.
1. Annotated Internal Collated Commentary 2011-6 Letter Comment by Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor Herald) on 2011/06/28 14:08:16 CDT: Last edited on 2011/06/28 14:42:32 CDT Comments under my name are from the NE Calontir commenting group, this month consisting of Lady Rohese de Dinan, Red Hawk Herald, and myself. No conflicts found.
College Action:
Device: Sent to Laurel.
2. Alexander MacGill (Tir Medóin, Shire of) New Name and New Device. (Note: originally listed as a household name, corrected for AICC) Sable, in bend between two chalices a pitcher and a chief embattled Or.
Consultation Table: Gulf Wars Major Changes: Yes Minor Changes: Yes Gender: Male Change for: Sound Documentation Provided:
Comment by Leonor Ruiz de Lison on 2011/06/01 13:57:31 CDT: Last edited on 2011/06/01 15:46:03 CDT Is this meant to be a new household name or just a new name?
Comment by Magnus on 2011/06/02 12:14:40 CDT: I don't find the name submitted or registered anywhere so it looks like a new name.
Comment by Leonor Ruiz de Lison on 2011/06/02 12:17:23 CDT: It looks like a new personal name to me, but it's listed as a household name, and I was wondering if that was an error.
Comment by Tostig Logiosophia (Eclipse) on 2011/06/01 21:55:43 CDT: Last edited on 2011/06/02 22:59:56 CDT [Device] (At least I hope it's a device submission given the form. If not ...) Consider the reblazon "Sable, in bend a pitcher between two chalices and a chief embattled Or." When they aren't the same, the central charge type is usually blazoned before the peripheral charge types when arranged like an ordinary.
With three charge types on the field this submission is not X2 simple. Seems 2 CD clear versus "Sable, in bend a sun and a griffin rampant contourny, a chief embattled Or." (Ilya Yaroslavovich, Device, July 1993) with changes to the type and number of primary charges, verus "Sable, three lightning bolts palewise in fess and a chief embattled Or." (Judith of Stormholde, Device, Oct 1986) with changes to type and arrangement of primry charges, and versus a multitude of registrations in the form "Sable, an X and a chief embattled/dovetailed Or." for changes to type and number of primary charges. Closest found under 'Cup-1' was "Sable, a chalice Or and a chief embattled erminois." (Crispin del More, Device, Apr 2007) with a CD for both number of primary charges and tincture of the chief. No conflicts observed under 'Cups-2 or more', 'Arrangement-in bend' or 'Ewer'.
Comment by Magnus on 2011/06/12 21:25:41 CDT: Last edited on 2011/06/12 21:39:12 CDT [Name] No conflict found. [Device] No conflict found.
Comment by Adelaide de Beaumont on 2011/06/17 15:14:40 CDT: Sigh. This would be so much better (and still clear) with three chalices.
Comment by Andrewe Bawldwyn (Star) on 2011/06/20 12:30:07 CDT: Agreed.
Consider decreasing the number of embattlements by 1 or 2, and making them a little bolder as well.
I'm assuming there is difference for a pitcher and chalice, therefore this doesn't fall afoul of the sword and dagger rule? Annotated Internal Collated Commentary 2011-6 Letter Comment by Tostig Logiosophia (Eclipse) on 2011/06/22 18:22:15 CDT: [Device] Pitchers are classified under 'Ewer' in the O&A. Cups have their own classification, so this submission shouldn't be a violation of the sword and dagger rule.
Comment by Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor Herald) on 2011/06/28 14:10:33 CDT: No conflicts found.
College Action:
Name: Sent to Laurel
Device: Sent to Laurel reblazoned as " Sable, in bend a pitcher between two chalices and a chief embattled Or."
3. Alys Langton (Seawinds, Shire of ) New Badge. Per fess dancetty purpure and barry sable and argent, three cinquefoils argent in chief.
Submission History:Name ILoI 9/10 2. Kingdom accepted 10/10 (AG 11/10). Laurel registered 1/11.
Comment by Andrewe Bawldwyn (Star) on 2011/06/01 15:39:26 CDT: Alternate Blazon: Barry sable and argent, on a chief dancetty purpure three cinquefoils argent.
Comment by Gunnvor silfraharr on 2011/06/01 16:01:08 CDT: Since all the indents go below the fess line I don't know that we can call this a chief. I'd suggest an artist's note to do a better job on where the line of division is placed.
I personally would use fewer bars, probably four of each tincture for a total of eight, but it's okay as is.
Comment by Tostig Logiosophia (Eclipse) on 2011/06/02 12:53:38 CDT: Last edited on 2011/06/04 12:33:31 CDT [Device] Consider the reblazon "Per fess dancetty purpure and barry sable and argent, three cinquefoils argent." Agree with Gunnvor that this is a per fess division because all indents go below the fess line. Since the cinquefoils share a tincture with the bottom half, their placement need not be specifically blazoned. Disagree, however, on the suggestion to reduce the number of bars. Barruly, although not used in Society blazon, seemed to have referred to 13-24 bars (As opposed to 6-8 for 'Barry') See the note to 21. 'de Walence Aymars' in 'A Caerlaverock Roll of Arms' by Maister Iago ab Adam http://members.shaw.ca/yagowe/caerlaverock/part_ii.html
Consider versus "Azure chapé, three roses, one and two argent barbed vert." (Leonard Carage de Berry, Device, July 1997), "Azure, three fraises (cinquefoils) argent." (Fraser, Lord Saltoun, Device [Important non-SCA arms], Aug 1999), "Azure, three roses argent." (Jonas Aquilian, Device, June 1995), and "Per bend vert and sable, three roses in bend argent." (Bronwyn McKay Kelloughm, Device, March 1998). There is a CD for the field, but I cannot see a 2nd CD for change of arrangement under RfS X.4g http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/rfs.html#10.4g:
"g. Arrangement Changes - Changing the relative positions of charges in any group placed directly on the field or overall is one clear difference, provided that change is not caused by other changes to the design. "Changes to other parts of the design frequently cause changes to the arrangement of charge groups, so changing from Argent, a fess between two unicorns within an orle purpure to Argent, a pale between two unicorns within an orle purpure requires that the unicorns move from in pale to in fess..."
On the submitted field I cannot see an arrangement of three charges either 1-and-2 (vs Leonard), 2-and-1 (vs Fraser and Jonas) or in bend (vs Bronwyn) being possible, so the in fess arrangement seems forced by other changes to the design.
Comment by Daniel de Lincoln on 2011/06/08 20:06:08 CDT: Gwenllian and I agree with Tostig on the conflicts.
Comment by Adelaide de Beaumont on 2011/06/17 15:22:39 CDT: I'm not sure I do. Since the barry field is technically neutral, if the cinquefoils were Or they could go anywhere without comment. And if she draws an extra point in the dance (which she is perfectly free to do), they could go smack on each purple point without comment, so the fact that they are in chief is a deliberate change.
I definiely agree on fewer bars, though-- Alys, right now this looks like Witchie Poo's hemline! Annotated Internal Collated Commentary 2011-6 Letter Comment by Magnus on 2011/06/12 14:12:42 CDT: Forced moves cause conflicts again. Pity since it is a nice badge.
Comment by Alys Langton on 2011/06/01 22:26:04 CDT: Last edited on 2011/06/01 22:26:33 CDT It was intended per fess since it gives a more dramatic effect with the dancetty. Fewer bars are fine.
Comment by Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor Herald) on 2011/06/28 14:13:09 CDT: We do not make the post-period distinction between indented and dancetty; we use the former term to blazon a zig-zag line, the bolder the better, while “dancetty” describes a two-edged ordinary indented “in phase” on both edges. This is “Per fess indented purpure and barry sable and argent, three cinquefoils argent.” Conflicts with: Neassa the Obstreperous, reg. 5/00 via Ansteorra: “Per chevron vert and argent ermined vert, in chief three roses argent.” There’s one CD for the field, but nothing between cinquefoils and roses.
College Action:
Device: Return for multiple conflicts.
4. Berke Unegen (Bryn Gwlad, Barony of) New Name and Device Change. Vert, an otter sajent guardant erect argent, in chief double arched argent three ermine crosses vert.
Consultation Table: Gulf Wars Major Changes: Yes Minor Changes: Yes Gender: Female Change for: Language/Culture: Mongolian Documentation Provided:
Comment by Andrewe Bawldwyn (Star) on 2011/06/01 14:03:38 CDT: [Admin] If this is a new name and device... How can the submitter retain their old device as a badge... What is their currently registered SCA Name?
Comment by Leonor Ruiz de Lison on 2011/06/01 14:14:31 CDT: Last edited on 2011/06/01 15:46:19 CDT NAME:
This feels a little...unusual...to me as a Mongol name, although I can't quite put my finger on it. The only
That said, while I personally would be more convinced by a name like "Black Fox" or some other physically descriptive adjective, I don't think it's wrong. (I would personally think it was a male name at first glance, but we honestly don't have enough female names to say that
If the submitter would like to use diacriticals (I recommend them, personally, even if dropped in daily use), It would be
Anyway, I just think it's odd, not impossible or unregistrable. Not important unless the submitter is very concerned with authenticity.
DEVICE:
Commentary on #14 of the May LoI might be relevant here: http://ace.heraldry.ansteorra.org/letter/view/45
Even with the webbed paws, I have to admit I thought it was a weasel, or maybe even some kind of feline.
Comment by Daniel de Lincoln on 2011/06/08 20:12:43 CDT: Last edited on 2011/06/08 20:17:16 CDT In ACE, to get to item 14, you append "#14" to the URL. So Kolfinna's submission was simply http://ace.heraldry.ansteorra.org/letter/view/45#14 Annotated Internal Collated Commentary 2011-6 Letter Comment by Daniel de Lincoln on 2011/06/08 20:23:20 CDT: Last edited on 2011/06/08 20:25:06 CDT Goldweard Halberd looked at this and called it a weasel.
But that appears to matter only for identifiability, not for conflict. Elsbeth's armory precedents led me to http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2000/10/00-10lar.html#94, which by omission implies that ferrets don't have a CD from otters:
Robert de Bere. Device. Vert, two ferrets combattant Or.
The beasts were not drawn as ferrets, lacking both the thin tail and the elongated body. The device would thus be returned for redrawing except if drawn properly, it would be in conflict with Lorimel the Gentle, Vert, an otter sejant erect Or. There is a CD for the number of primary charges, but nothing for the change in posture.
Comment by Magnus on 2011/07/05 19:04:08 CDT: @Name It looks like Baras did a narrow translation of Berke. It also means heavy or strong. It is found as a stand alone single name for people. Comparing modern Turkish with classical Mongolian is perilous unless you are fluent in both languages. I know no one currently who is. It will take a while to sift through the roughly two dozen references in my books on Berke. Juvaini and Rashid al-Din also mention it as well as the Secret History.
Comment by Leonor Ruiz de Lison on 2011/07/05 19:17:48 CDT: I'm not saying modern Turkish usage is identical to medieval Mongolian usage, simply that modern Turkish only uses Berke as a male name, and we have no examples of it as a female name in Middle Mongolian but we do have examples of it as a male name.
This is not necessarily a problem; it "feels" like a male name to me, but I don't think we can draw conclusions either way, since so many name elements were unisex. Likewise, I don't think I've seen any examples of [abstract adjective + animal] names, but that doesn't make it an impossibility (we're already stepping away from period practice because SCA registration requires two elements and the overwhelming majority of known Mongol names were single-element).
I think it's perfectly registrable as is, given the state of available information. It just feels slightly "off" or at least atypical to me as someone who's done a lot of research on Middle Mongolian onomastics, and I wanted to get that out there in case it's of concern to the submitter.
Most people looking at it without any knowledge of Mongolian history will probably not assume it's a male name.
Comment by Tigern on 2011/06/01 18:08:04 CDT: I have to admit to being rather new to the heraldry, but shouldn't this be ". . . on a chief double arched argent", not "in chief double arched argent"?
Comment by Magnus on 2011/06/02 12:22:15 CDT: Yes. Blazons produce some of most fascinating typos. You just smile and fix it, like "Vert, an otter sejant erect guardant on a chief double-arched argent three crosses of ermine spots vert."
Comment by Tostig Logiosophia (Eclipse) on 2011/06/02 21:34:48 CDT: Last edited on 2011/06/02 23:01:13 CDT [Device] Concur with Magnus' reblazon "Vert, an otter sejant erect guardant and on a chief double-arched argent three crosses of erimne spots vert." I assume there are Precedents to back the PicDic assertions that a chief enarched "was originally meant to convey the convexity of the shield, and consequently carries no heraldic difference" and that the chief double-arched and triple-arched "seem to be a Society inventions". Even so, checking also as "... on a chief argent three crosses of ermine spots" had no conflicts observed.
Comment by Magnus on 2011/06/12 21:42:34 CDT: Last edited on 2011/07/10 06:08:54 CDT [Name] No conflict found. Yes it is a man's name and there is nothing we can do about that issue. I would recommend one of these two patterns for registering this name. *
ACADEMY OF SAINT GABRIEL REPORT 2075 You asked whether
On the Documentation and Construction of Period Mongolian Names by Baras-aghur Naran http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/baras-aghur/mongolian.html Common Name Elements from Primary Sources Unegen fox Berke difficult ------
Researching Mongol Names in the SCA by Luigi Kapaj http://silverhorde.viahistoria.com/main.html?research/ResearchingMongolNames.html *
The simplest way to choose a Mongol name for an SCA persona is to choose one directly from a period source. Preferably choose a more obscure one, so as not to conflict with famous personalities such as any of the Great Khans. Add to this a father’s name in the form of another given name to serve as a “last name,” or a clan or even a tribe name to designate place of origin. Be sure not to pick a combination that is specific to a notable person in history such as Yesügei of the Kiyan clan (Chinggis Khaan’s father). The given name, in any of the forms in the examples so far, can be presented in this manner. This simple formulation can be done without any grammatical knowledge if one of the following templates is used: *
Lingua Mongolia by Emyr R. E. Pugh http://www.linguamongolia.com/index.html This looks like a professional linguist website for Mongolian studies and their dictionary has: Transliteration: berke Word Class: adj. Definition: difficult, hard, burdensome, strong ------
Cleaves, Francis W. (trans.) The Secret History of the Mongols. Cambridge; London: Harvard-Yenching Institute, 1982. The Mongγol-un niγuca tobčiyan was written sometime after the death of Genghis Khan in 1227. Header #166 dates Berke Sands to the year 1203. Page 233 of the name index has “Berke Eled (desert) #166” “Berke Sands v. Berke Eled.” This appears to translate as a desert place named difficult sands. ------
Boyle, J.A. (trans.) Ata-Malik Juvaini, Genghis Khan: The History of the World-Conqueror. University Of Washington Press, 1958-1997. The Tarikh-i Jahangushay-i Juvaini was written about the middle of the 1200s. Page 184 - Berke note #17 given as Barca by Marco Polo. Page 184 - Berkecher note #18 Perhaps 'little Berke'. Page 278 - Berk-Yaruq Note #9 reign dated 1094-1104. His name means 'Strong Brightness'. Page 568 - Berke Oghul. ------
Boyle, J.A. (trans.) Rashīd al-Dīn, The successors of Genghis Khan, Persian heritage series. Columbia University Press, 1971. Annotated Internal Collated Commentary 2011-6 Letter It is part of the Jāmiʿ al-tawārīkh completed around 1307. Page 109 - Berke ruled 1258-1266. Page 110 - Berke and Berkecher were sons of Jamal Khan. ------
Grønbech, Kaare, Krueger, John R. An Introduction To Classical (Literary) Mongolian, 3rd ed. Harrassowitz Verlag, Wiesbaden, 1993. page 63 berke - difficult, heavy. page 80 ünegen - fox The SCA appears to register the word with or without the umlaut but u and ü represent different vowels in Mongolian. ------
Mongolian Studies - Journal of the Mongolia Society Volume XI 1988 page 28-30 Naming Patterns Amoung the Mongols by Larry Moses Three pdf images included for N+N naming pattern.
1. 2. 3.
Comment by Vyolante Drago do Porto on 2011/06/13 10:49:15 CDT: Tuthal tells me that Otter's Original name is Rhyan Otter.
Rhyan Otter This name was registered in January of 1992 (via the Middle). The following device associated with this name was registered in January of 1992 (via the Middle): Sable, a winged otter passant guardant between in pale two crosses of ermine spots argent.
Comment by Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor Herald) on 2011/06/28 14:14:51 CDT: [Name] The client needs to summarize what the source says. The article is found at http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/baras-aghur/mongolian.html. Did the submitter include photocopies? “Berke” is glossed as "difficult" and “Unegen” as "fox." The article says: “Period names of the n+n pattern are combined of two elements, both of which can stand on their own. The exception to this are names of this pattern that consist of a given name and and epithet. Examples of these are Al Altan (crimson gold), Qori Buqa (twenty bulls), and Mongke Temur (eternal iron). However, there are a few rules that need to be observed when using this name pattern. First, avoid name combinations that do not make common sense together. Next, personal nicknames such as fat, wrinkled, popeye, etc may not be combined at all, nor can the names of clans or tribes. Animal names may be combined with names that are of a different type (ie a name could be constructed of black wolf, but not tiger wolf). As in all instances of rules, there are always exceptions that can be documented. These are general rules that should be followed. “ -- http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/baras-aghur/mongolian.html *Device+ “sejant” “…on a chief double arched argent three crosses of ermine spots vert.” No conflicts found. Another otter came through recently and the response to the complaints of unidentifiability was to redraw it with a fish in its mouth. All the comments on the redraw were favorable. Wonder if this client would like the same change.
College Action:
Name: Sent to Laurel.
Device: Sent to Laurel reblazoned as " Vert, an otter sejant erect guardant and on a chief double-arched argent three crosses of ermine spots vert."
5. Bryn Gwlad Baronial Guard Hellsgate Company (Bryn Gwlad, Barony of ) New Badge. Argent a chainless portcullis sable on a chief gules a mullet of five greater and lesser points argent.
*Asterisk’s note: badge is not jointly owned.+
Comment by Andrewe Bawldwyn (Star) on 2011/06/01 14:04:59 CDT: [Admin] This will actually get registered to Bryn Gwlad: Under:
Comment by Tostig Logiosophia (Eclipse) on 2011/06/03 19:25:09 CDT: [Badge] No conflicts observed. Annotated Internal Collated Commentary 2011-6 Letter Comment by Daniel de Lincoln on 2011/06/08 20:42:19 CDT: It can't be joint ownership. The SCA Administrative Handbook, http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/admin.html#II.D, "Armory Which May be Registered to Individuals", allows joint badges only for individuals. http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/admin.html#II.E, "Armory Which May be Registered to Branches", does not allow joint ownership for any branch armory. So this could not be registered to both Hellsgate and Bryn Gwlad.
I wondered why Hellsgate wasn't registering it themselves. http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/admin.html#I.A, "Society branches, including kingdoms, principalities, and local branches, are subject to no limit on the number of items they may register." Goldweard Halberd says that he was told that Bryn Gwlad registering it obviates a letter of permission to conflict with the Bryn Gwlad baronial guard badge, and Hellsgate says that they have no intention of ever breaking off.
Gwenllian Longeley points out that the Bryn Gwlad baronial guard badge is clear by X.2 or by three CDs anyway. But she also notes that if they submitted it, they couldn't register it as referring to a "Baronial Guard", as they are a Stronghold.
Anway, if they ever do break off, Bryn Gwlad could transfer it to them, so es macht nicht.
Comment by Eirik Halfdanarson (Bordure Herald) on 2011/06/20 14:41:07 CDT: We specifically left registration to the Barony because the Baronial Guard is mainly a function of the Barony and we are a sub unit of the Guard.
Comment by Magnus on 2011/06/12 09:12:24 CDT: Last edited on 2011/06/12 11:13:48 CDT [Badge] Bryn Gwlad, Barony of. This branch-name was registered in March of 1980 (via Ansteorra). No conflict found.
College Action:
Device: Sent to Laurel.
6. Company of the Phoenix (Bordermarch, Barony of) New Household Name and Badge. Fieldless, two bones in saltire argent, overall a phoenix gules.
Documentation Provided:
Comment by Andrewe Bawldwyn (Star) on 2011/06/01 14:05:46 CDT: [Admin] We need the actual registered SCA name of the individual who will retain custody of this Household name. The badge will not be owned by the household, but rather, by the same individual.
Comment by Jillian Saint Andre (Silent Trumpet Pursuviant) on 2011/06/01 15:10:22 CDT: The form is filled out for Chrestien Brule to retain the household name & badge. Any mistake I take credit for, as I found the form a little confusing on this issue. Your Pardon.
Comment by Andrewe Bawldwyn (Star) on 2011/06/01 15:32:02 CDT: No pardon necessary, just making sure the requisite info shows up.
Comment by Gunnvor silfraharr on 2011/06/01 16:27:35 CDT: I would suggest that the crossbones be highly stylized so as to be recognizable. If this were a skull-and-crossbones, you'd have the context telling you that these were bones. Here, this could be wooden planks, a sloppy saltire, etc. Annotated Internal Collated Commentary 2011-6 Letter
1.
Comment by Tostig Logiosophia (Eclipse) on 2011/06/03 19:49:40 CDT: Last edited on 2011/06/04 16:54:51 CDT [Badge] Consider the reblazon "(Fieldless) Two bones in saltire argent surmounted by a phoenix gules." This matches the phraseology in the two most recent registrations (2007).
Seems 2 CD clear versus "Sable, two shin-bones in saltire argent." (Isaac Newton, Sir, Device [Important non-SCA arms], Dec 1994) with the addition of an overall charge and fieldless difference.
Concur with Gunnvor on identifiability issues. Clearly drawn bones would also let the phoenix grow enough to look like a charge rather than a ribbon.
Adapting from Gunnvor:
1.
Comment by Gunnvor silfraharr on 2011/06/04 18:09:03 CDT: That totally rocks, much better depiction!
Comment by Daniel de Lincoln on 2011/06/09 16:57:38 CDT: Last edited on 2011/06/09 17:02:28 CDT Halberd and Longeley and I (oh, my!) agree that the bones in the submitted depiction are not recognizable.
Gwenllian Longeley asked me to address "barely overall" and "overall charge on a fieldless badge". The first depiction would be returned for being barely overall. Tostig's depiction avoids both reasons for return.
"Barely overall" has been cause for return for decades. From Bruce precedents, inter multa cetera, "... the Laurel office has long insisted that overall charges be truly overall, not barely overlapping the edge of their underlying charge. (LoAR of 17 June 83) [Returned for this reason and for conflict] (Eirikr Sigurdharson, September, 1992, pg. 38)" Or "This device is returned for violating our ban on so-called 'barely overall' charges." (Sara de Bonneville, April 2010 LoAR, An Tir returns).
Istvan Wreath modified "barely overall" in http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2008/12/08-12lar.html#111, Brunissende Dragonette de Brocéliande and Alys Mackyntoich. But that case isn't applicable here. In the Brunissende and Alys case, it was a tertiary cup that happened to have its top edges just barely extend past the edges of the seraph. Istvan only said that we shouldn't be that picky about something that was clearly a tertiary with a minor oopsie.
But Istvan's modification doesn't apply in this case. The original phoenix was not intended as and cannot be viewed as a tertiary that had a couple of feathers past the line. The current case is more of a case of an overall charge on a fieldless badge, which has been problematic since at least 1992 (q.v.).
For overall+fieldless, http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2006/09/06-09lar.html#246 quotes both the original ruling from Bruce Laurel and makes a reinterpretation of it:
Sondra van Schiedam. Badge. (Fieldless) An open book argent, overall two recorders in saltire azure. Several commenters recommended returning this badge for using an overall charge on a fieldless badge. We routinely allow overall charges on fieldless badges where the area of intersection is small, which is not the case in this submission. However, the November 1992 Cover Letter, where the current standard for acceptability of such overall charges was set, Laurel stated I've therefore decided not to implement a comprehensive ban on fieldless badges with overall charges. I will be returning cases where the underlying charge is rendered unidentifiable, per Rule VIII.3; this will include the most egregious cases of overall charges (e.g. A pheon surmounted by a hawk's head). But this can be done as an interpretation of the current Rules, and needn't involve a new policy. In cases where identifiability is maintained -- where one of the charges is a long, slender object, and the area of intersection small -- overall charges will still be permitted in fieldless badges. The primary concern is identifiability. The charges in this badge maintain their identifiability, though the area of overlap is larger than we normally allow, and thus the badge is registerable. We note that if the charges had been reversed, that is (Fieldless) Two recorders in saltire azure overall an open book argent, the badge would not have been registerable as the recorders would have been unidentifiable.
Goldweard Halberd, Gwenllian Longeley, and I think that Tostig's redraw fits the identifiability requirement admirably. There is no question whatsoever that that's a phoenix, and I can not imagine bonier bones. And it's no longer "barely overall".
I notice the distinctive heads on the bones in this new depiction, and note the specificity of Sir Isaac Newton, Sable, two shin-bones in saltire argent. But it's probably too picky of me to suggest blazoning Tostig's version as "thigh bones" or "femurs", since almost all SCA blazons just say "bones". Annotated Internal Collated Commentary 2011-6 Letter Comment by Tostig Logiosophia (Eclipse) on 2011/06/09 18:59:48 CDT: [Badge] Artistic credit where credit is due - the bones were taken from Gunnvor and the phoenix from Borek's Heraldic CD. Tostig just put them together in the redraw.
Comment by Gunnvor silfraharr on 2011/06/11 16:39:23 CDT: And Gunnvor yoinked the skulls-and-crossbones out of Google Image Search as examples ;-)
Comment by Magnus on 2011/06/02 12:27:11 CDT: Last edited on 2011/06/12 09:06:28 CDT [Household] [June 1994 LoAR, R-East] Rhys Woolf. Household name for Domus Phoenicis. "Conflict with the Order of the Phoenix and the Shire of Fenix. As "domus" here is the designator, the difference has to come down to the difference between the singular and the plural, which here is insufficient."
Fenix, Shire of the was registered in February of 1992 (via the Middle).
I suspect it also conflicts with Phoenix, Arizona since it is a non-personal name.
[Badge] No conflict found.
Comment by Tostig Logiosophia (Eclipse) on 2011/06/02 23:08:21 CDT: Last edited on 2011/06/04 12:38:23 CDT [Administrative] Given the name conflicts cited by Magnus, does the submitter wish to withdraw the Badge Submission? Since the personal name is registered, the armory submission is unaffected by the fate of the household name.
Comment by Jillian Saint Andre (Silent Trumpet Pursuviant) on 2011/06/03 10:46:18 CDT: I'm in conversation with the submitter, and first and foremost he wants the badge to continue through registration, please. I am very confused by the conflict problems. There seems to be two separate 'group' names already in conflict, (Order of the Phoenix, to which I can find no other reference outside the LoAR & the Harry Potter book, & the now Barony of Fenix) and they were registered without a problem. If someone could enlighten me, I'd greatly appreciate it. If the submitter altered the subject name, e.g.
Comment by Magnus on 2011/06/03 12:19:14 CDT: Last edited on 2011/06/03 12:29:46 CDT The return is dated 1994. If you were familiar with Harry Potter, Order of the Phoenix was published in 2003 (one of the better ones). The 1994 return has nothing to do with J. K. Rowling since none of her books were written at that time. The current submission has nothing to do with Harry Potter but you could argue in favor of that book as a conflict also.
The submitted name conflicts with the the country of Greece's Order of the Phoenix, the SCA barony of Fenix, and with the city of Phoenix, Arizona. I can also make a case for the 4th conflict with Harry Potter but that would be obstrusive modernity rules.
Why did Laurel register barony of the Fenix? Well it was registered in 1982. We probably didn't protect the Greek order back then and no one pointed out Phoenix, Arizona.
As for the others the Greek government has never consulted Laurel on any of their actions and Rowling's books didn't exist back then.
However you slice it Company of the Phoenix ain't happening.
The good news is Red Phoenix looks OK and clear.
Comment by Tostig Logiosophia (Eclipse) on 2011/06/03 19:36:29 CDT: Last edited on 2011/06/04 12:40:24 CDT [Name] Are major/minor changes allowed?
Comment by Gunnvor silfraharr on 2011/06/04 12:38:02 CDT: Domus Phoenicis Rubis would keep the Latin form.
College Action:
Name: Withdrawn by submitter.
Device: Return for violation of Laurel precedent banning barely overall charges. See Tostig's redraw for an example of how to draw an acceptable overall charge. Also the majority of members at the meeting had difficulty in recognizing the bones as bones. When redrawn, please try to make them more recognizable.
Annotated Internal Collated Commentary 2011-6 Letter 7. Heinrich der Trüwe (Adlersrhue, Shire of ) New Name and Device. Per pale sable and argent a semy of rooks Or, on chief argent three crosses patonce gules, a griffin passant argent.
Major Changes: Yes Minor Changes: Yes Gender: Male Change for: Language/Culture and Spelling: Documentation Provided:
Comment by Tigern on 2011/06/01 18:12:00 CDT: DEVICE Blazon; Per pale sable and gules a semy of rooks Or, a griffin passant argent, on a chief argent three crosses patonce gules.
That should correct the color on the field division, and put the primary charge first, correct?
Comment by Magnus on 2011/06/02 12:37:12 CDT: Yes and you can drop the first argent.
Comment by Tostig Logiosophia (Eclipse) on 2011/06/02 23:34:01 CDT: Last edited on 2011/06/03 19:16:41 CDT [Device] I'd also drop the indefinite article. Consider the reblazon "Per pale sable and gules semy of rooks Or, a griffin passant and on a chief argent three crosses patonce gules."
I come up with a complexity of 8 under RfS VIII.1a (4 tinctures and 4 charge types) -- the potential limit for armorial simplicity. The semy of rooks may be ruled to lose their visual impact, but IMO that's a CoA level call.
With 3 charge types on the field this is also not simple under either RfS X.2 or RfSX.4j(ii) -- conflict checking was ... tedious ...... Under Monster-Griffin-argent-1: Seems 2 CD clear versus "Gules, a griffin passant and on a chief argent three crescents gules." (Niáll Þorkelsson, Device, March 2006) for half the field and the strewn charges but nothing for the change of tertiary type. ... Under Chess Piece: The only registration with more than three rooks/zules is "Vert, semy of chess rooks argent, a sealion erect Or." (Hywyn of Wyrmgeist, Device, June 1990) so there should be a CD for changing strewn charges for any other registration. [BTW I want extra pay for having to read a blazon containing the phrase "a unicornate single-headed chess knight"] ... Under Chief-Charged-Plain Line-Argent-Above 1 argent only: No other potential conflicts observed.
Comment by Magnus on 2011/06/12 08:08:40 CDT: Last edited on 2011/06/12 09:10:01 CDT [Name] No conflict found. Heinrich - Medieval German Given Names from Silesia by Talan Gwynek http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/talan/bahlow/bahlowMasc.html Men's Names - Heinrich 1362 der Trüwe - German byname. ACADEMY OF SAINT GABRIEL REPORT 2515 "We found two bynames appropriate for your period that have the general meaning you were interested in [3]: der Tru"we 1358 'the well-meaning, sincere, honest, trustworthy, loyal'" [3] Brechenmacher, Josef Karlmann, Etymologisches Woerterbuch der deutschen Familiennamen_ (Limburg a. d. Lahn, C. A. Starke-Verlag, 1957-1960). s.nn. Treu, Treudienstc
[Device] No conflict found. Blazon as: "Per pale sable and gules semy of rooks Or, a gryphon passant and on a chief argent three crosses patonce gules."
Comment by Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor Herald) on 2011/06/28 14:17:21 CDT: [Name] The client needs to summarize what the sources say. The name Heinrich appears 27 times from 1263 - 1444 in “Medieval German Given Names from Silesia: Men's Names” by Talan Gwynek (Brian M. Scott) -- http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/talan/bahlow/bahlowMasc.html der Trüwe: “We found two bynames appropriate for your period that have the general meaning you were interested in [3]: der Trüwe 1358 'the well-meaning, sincere, honest, trustworthy, loyal' Trüwdienst 1493 'faithful service' [3] Brechenmacher, Josef Karlmann, _Etymologisches Woerterbuch der deutschen Familiennamen_ (Limburg a. d. Lahn, C. A. Starke-Verlag, 1957-1960). s.nn. Treu, Treudienstc” -- http://www.panix.com/~gabriel/public-bin/showfinal.cgi/2515.txt Annotated Internal Collated Commentary 2011-6 Letter *Device+ “Semy” is NOT a noun. The primary charge is blazoned first after the field: “Per pale sable and argent semy of chess rooks Or, a griffin passant and on a chief argent three crosses patonce gules.” No conflicts found.
College Action:
Name: Sent to Laurel
Device: Sent to Laurel reblazoned as "Per pale sable and gules semy of rooks Or, a griffin passant and on a chief argent three crosses patonce gules."
8. Joanna the Spinner (Seawinds, Shire of ) New Badge. Fieldless, a wool pack gules.
Submission History: Name and device. ILoI 11/10 11. Kingdom accepted 12/10 (AG 1/11). Laurel registered 3/11.
Comment by Andrewe Bawldwyn (Star) on 2011/06/01 14:07:16 CDT: [Badge] This should be clear of:
# Eowyn Eilonwy of Alewife Brook
* The following badge associated with this name was registered in May of 1998 (via the East): (Fieldless) On a woolpack gules, an alewife naiant Or.
With 1 CD for the fieldless bribe and a CD for deleting the tertiary charge.
Comment by Magnus on 2011/06/02 12:57:38 CDT: I didn't find any conflict under cushion, woolpack, wool pack, or pillows. Is there any other place one could hide?
Comment by Gunnvor silfraharr on 2011/06/02 16:38:34 CDT: Whoopie cushions?
Comment by Tostig Logiosophia (Eclipse) on 2011/06/03 19:52:30 CDT: [Badge] Concur with Magnus. No conflicts observed.
College Action:
Device: Sent to Laurel
9. Marita Al-Andalusiyya (Bryn Gwlad, Barony of) New Name and Device. Vert, a sheep passant Or.
Consultation Table: Gulf Wars Major Changes: No Minor Changes: Yes Gender: Female Change for: Meaning: Maria = Little Marry. Documentation Provided:
Comment by Andrewe Bawldwyn (Star) on 2011/06/01 14:10:16 CDT: I believe this is clear:
Closest i found was:
# Ruaidri Gabhar
* The following device associated with this name was registered in February of 2005 (via AEthelmearc): Vert, a goat rampant within a bordure Or. with 1 Cd for deleting the bordure, and a CD for posture change. I don't know if you get a CD for a change from a sheep to a goat, doubtful.
Comment by Magnus on 2011/06/02 13:10:00 CDT: Conflict with Vigdis Hakonsdottir registered March 2011 (via the West) "Per pale gules and sable, a ram passant regardant Or." One CD for the field changes. Nothing for a ram vs a sheep.
Comment by Vyolante Drago do Porto on 2011/06/10 09:17:05 CDT: Sought Permission to Conflict and was denied. Submitter will take it back to the drawing board
Mentioned something about a charge on the sheeps shoulder. How do charges ontop of other charges normally affect cadency?
Comment by Magnus on 2011/06/10 10:35:10 CDT: A charge placed on the sheep would give the second CD to clear it. That charge must be clearly identifiable so I would redraw the sheep a bit bigger.
Comment by Leonor Ruiz de Lison on 2011/06/01 14:26:58 CDT: I cannot find
Belasquita [3] This is of Basque origin, a feminine derivative of Belasco, with a Spanish diminutive suffix, -ita. Bela means "crow." which is using the diminutive to feminize a male name, not quite the same thing.
I am also not sure about combining Basque and Arabic. I have not seen this in any of the Basque name sources commonly used. I could not find any previous rulings on whether Basque and Arabic are compatible (with or without a weirdness), but it seems like a big assumption to me.
I would guess that
Comment by Andrewe Bawldwyn (Star) on 2011/06/01 15:38:05 CDT: My understanding of the naming standards is that we have to have evidence that the two cultures would have intermixed in our period. So if there is evidence that the Basque people would have intermingled with the Moors in Andalucia then there should not be a problem. This will probably be a call for Pelican but we should try and find whatever evidence we can that the two cultures would have interacted with each other, and that should get us at most a SFPP even if the naming pools were not attested to have mixed... Of course, I could be understanding it all wrong.
Comment by Leonor Ruiz de Lison on 2011/06/01 15:45:18 CDT: Right, it's that evidence that the Basques and the Moors interacted that I do not see in the submission or in precedents.
I haven't found anything so far, unfortunately.
Comment by Adelaide de Beaumont on 2011/06/17 15:44:15 CDT: I agree with Leonor;
There is virtually no chance that a Basque woman would interact with Arab speakers. The main reason Basque is so laden with linguistic weirdnesses is that they were stuck in the Pyrenees as if they were on an island. There was traffic with Spanish speakers when they left Basque territory to trade, but Basques kept to far northern Spain and the Moors kept to Southern and coastal Spain. On the other hand,
Annotated Internal Collated Commentary 2011-6 Letter Comment by Magnus on 2011/06/12 01:02:44 CDT: [Name] I could not find the name Marita in SCA registrations or St. Gabriels. We need at least some docs for that.
College Action:
Name: Return for no documentation supporting Marita. Submitter only allows minor changes and changing from Marita to Maria is not a minor change.
Device: Return for conflict.
10. Maya of Bjornsborg (Bjornsborg, Barony of ) New Name and Device. Azure, a dragon segrent argent between a chief engrailed and in base a Norse sun cross Or.
Consultation Table: Paid for at Gulf Wars Major Changes: No Minor Changes: Yes Gender: Female Documentation Provided:
Comment by Tostig Logiosophia (Eclipse) on 2011/06/04 07:45:05 CDT: Last edited on 2011/06/04 12:44:00 CDT [Device] Consider the reblazon "Azure, a dragon argent and in base a Norse sun cross, a chief invected Or." Chiefs and other peripheral subordinaris are usually blazoned last.Segreant is the SCA defalt posture for a dragon http://heraldry.sca.org/coagloss.html#default
With three charge types on the field, the submission is not simple under RfS X.2. Largely due to the complex line and secondary charge types, no conflicts observed.
Anticipate a note asking there be fewer points on the chief. Three to four is better period style, but six has been registerable.
Comment by Adelaide de Beaumont on 2011/06/17 16:03:51 CDT: If so, that is fairly silly. Unless the CoA wants to obliterate most of the available sources to which submitters go in good faith, they'd better be prepared for variations in style. Check the illustration of the online version of Parker under "engrailed"-- it depicts a bend with ten points per side. It's very nearly saw-toothed. Check the official website of the Principality of the Mists http://mists.westkingdom.org/ LOTS of points. Many sources merely show the shape of the line of division without respect to the boundaries of a shield. As long as the emblazon is obviously engrailed, and this is, it should be acceptable. If the CoA actually wants to educate submitters, rather than saying "Please draw this with fewer points" as though the submitter has done something wrong or stupid, they could say, "In our experience, engrailed edges were drawn in period with only three or four points, as you can see in this example from the BlahBlah Roll of Arms, 1459..."
Comment by Magnus on 2011/06/11 22:46:08 CDT: Last edited on 2011/06/11 23:34:14 CDT [Name] No conflict found.
[Device] No conflict found. At least these are clear.
Comment by Adelaide de Beaumont on 2011/06/17 15:46:41 CDT: I tried to get her to draw the earth symbol bigger, or failing that, have more than one of them. We're still working on it.
Comment by Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor Herald) on 2011/06/28 14:19:44 CDT: “segreant” We think the cross would have to be in base given the placement of the other charges. No conflicts found.
College Action:
Name: Sent to Laurel
Device: Sent to Laurel reblazoned as "Azure, a dragon argent and in base a Norse sun cross, a chief invected Or."
Annotated Internal Collated Commentary 2011-6 Letter 11. Maya of Bjornsborg (Bjornsborg, Barony of ) New Badge. Fieldless, adragon argent maintaining a Norse sun cross or.
Consultation Table: Paid for at Gulf War
Comment by Tostig Logiosophia (Eclipse) on 2011/06/04 07:57:13 CDT: [Badge] Consider versus "Gyronny Or and azure, a dragon segreant argent." (Brychan Tammas, Device, Jan 1996). The fieldless difference is worth a CD, but maintained charges aren't. Unfortunately, I agree with the proposed blazon that the Norse sun cross is a maintained charge. Resubmitting as a sustained charge seems clear.
Comment by Gunnvor silfraharr on 2011/06/04 16:44:36 CDT: If this goes back for a redraw, we need to be very specific about how she needs to change it. I'm not particularly clear on maintained vs. sustained, and specifics would be of use.
Comment by Tostig Logiosophia (Eclipse) on 2011/06/04 17:11:58 CDT: [Badge] @ Gunnvor. Sustained charges have the same visual weight as the charge holding them. They are co-primaries and are usually the same size. Think of them as you would supporters on heraldic achievments.
Comment by Adelaide de Beaumont on 2011/06/17 16:13:55 CDT: I disagree strongly with the "same size" comment. I agree with the supporter idea, however. As I've said before, I look at whether the animate charge is USING the item in question (i.e., wielding a sword), or DISPLAYING the object like Vanna White with a letter. The letters are not as big as Vanna, but you have no doubt that she is calling your attention to them as much as to herself. I hear this dragon saying, "Look at this cool thing I found!" Can't you? The sun cross is as big as a round thing can be while appearing rationally like it's being held by that dragon; contrast that to the size it would be if he were charged on the flank with it. The further fact that it is also a different tincture ought to push it over any potential visual weight questions.
Comment by Tostig Logiosophia (Eclipse) on 2011/06/17 18:20:51 CDT: [Badge] As much as I philosophically agree (again) with Adelaide, the Norse sun cross does not meet the CoA definition of a sustained charge.
"Susannah Griffon. Badge. Azure, a talbot passant maintaining a cross of Calatrava Or. "The talbot was originally blazoned as sustaining the cross of Calatrava. Per the Cover Letter to the LoAR of October 1996, "Maintained charges are small and do not count for difference. Sustained charges are large - large enough in fact that if they were not being held that they would be considered a co-primary, and do count for difference." In this case, while the cross of Calatrava is not a miniscule charge, it is not large enough to be considered a co-primary charge. It is smaller than the talbot both vertically and horizontally and has notably less visual weight than the talbot. Because the SCA's only choices for held charges are to consider them to be sustained co-primary charges, or to consider them maintained insignificant charges, and this cross cannot be considered a co-primary charge, it must be considered a maintained charge. "This thus conflicts with Griffin Brandt, Azure, a talbot passant within an orle of mullets of seven points Or. There is one CD for removing the orle of mullets of seven points, but no difference for adding the maintained cross. It also conflicts with Ingilborg Sigmundardóttir, Azure, in pale two wolves courant Or. There is one CD for changing the number of canines, but no difference between a talbot and a wolf, no difference between passant and courant per the LoAR of August 2001, and no difference for adding the maintained charge." (LoAR Dec 2003, R-Calontir)
Comment by Magnus on 2011/06/11 23:33:48 CDT: [Badge] Agree with that conflict and raise you Moira Kellahan February 1997 (via the Middle): "Per pale azure and purpure, a wyvern erect argent."
College Action:
Device: Return for conflict. It was the opinion of the majority at the meeting that the Norse sun cross was maintained and not sustained. The cross needs to have equal weight visually with the dragon and the majority felt it did not. The Norse sun cross should be big enough to be considered a co-primary with the dragon to be sustained.
Annotated Internal Collated Commentary 2011-6 Letter 12. MeLchior Sans-Avoir (Mooneschadowe, Province of) New Name and Device. Azure, Two scythes blades to center and a chief pointed argent.
Consultation Table: Gulf Wars Major Changes: Yes Minor Changes: Yes Gender: Documentation Provided:
Comment by Leonor Ruiz de Lison on 2011/06/01 14:48:43 CDT: Rough translation (I hope someone can provide a better one): Melchior, name of one of the three wise men in the popular tradition. Documentation for the CoH should be translated into English, even if it is a rough translation, even if sometimes untranslated French is allowed to slide. In this case, I don't think the summary is adequate to start with.
I am not sure this provides documentation of the name as a name for real people within a French context (although it certainly is in a German context). A quick O&A search is not turning up any previously registered French Melchiors, nor is a quick websearch; maybe someone else has better googlefu. However, German and French are a weirdness, so I guess
That said, the summary here (and possible the documentation itself) looks inadequate to me:
There is no date given for
There is no date or nationality given for
I see nothing in either of these citations to indicate that either name element is within SCA period, or from compatible cultures. Is there more information in the documentation? If so, it should be summarized more comprehensively.
Comment by Gunnvor silfraharr on 2011/06/01 18:10:43 CDT: Last edited on 2011/06/02 04:02:58 CDT
[DEVICE] I would suggest an artist's note to draw the scythes a bit chunkier to make them easier to identify.
[GIVEN NAME] The medieval legend of the Three Magi did not become popular in Europe until the 14th century, and didn't become widespread until the 15th and 16th centuries.
Bruce Metzger quotes two of the earliest accounts of the Magi (my translations follow). The earliest appearance of the names of the Magi is from the Excerpta Latina Barbari, which was probably composed in Greek in about 500 A.D., and was transmitted via a Merovingian translation into Latin:
"In his diebus sub Augusto kalendas Ianuarias magi obtulerunt ei munera et adoraverunt eum: magi autem vocabantur Bithisarea Melchior Gathaspa."
[At that time in the reign of Augustus, on 1st January the Magi brought him gifts and worshipped him. The names of the Magi were
The next mention of the Magi is in the Excerpta et Collectanea, an Irish text in Latin, ca. 8th-9th c.:
"Magi sunt, qui munera Domino dederunt: primus fuisse dicitur Melchior, senex et canus, barba prolixa et capillis, tunica hyacinthina, sagoque mileno, et calceamentis hyacinthino et albo mixto opere, pro mitrario variae compositionis indutus: aurum obtulit regi Domino. Secundus, nomine Caspar, juvenis imberbis, rubicundus, mylenica tunica, sago rubeo, calceamentis hyacinthinis vestitus: thure quasi Deo oblatione digna, Deum honorabat. Tertius, fuscus, integre barbatus, Balthasar nomine, habens tunicam rubeam, albo vario, calceamentis milenicis amictus: per myrrham Filium hominis moriturum professus est. Omnia autem vestimenta eorum Syriaca sunt."
[They are the Magi, who have given gifts to the Lord. The first is said to have been
Friedrich Barbarossa gave the supposed bones of the Three Magi to Koln (Cologne), Germany (they had apparently originally been discovered by St. Helena in 325 AD). This soon led to a shrine to house the relics, constructed from 1180-1230 and housed in the cathedral, where it became a popular pilgrimage site. This appears to be the focal point from which the names of the Magi eventually began appearing in and around Germany.
I don't have much in the way of useful sources for European names, but Wikipedia gives a variety of men in period named
Melchior Broederlam (c. 1350 – after 1409), a Dutch painter. Melchior Hoffman (c. 1495 – 1543), German-Dutch Anabaptist prophet. Melchior Miguel Carneiro Leitão (1516-1583), Jesuit, first Bishop of Macao. Melchior Nunes Barreto (born c. 1520), Jesuit who carried the first Western library to Japan in 1554. Melchior Cano (1525-1560), Spanish theologian. Melchior Lorck (Lorichs/Lorch) (1526-1583), Danish-German renaissance painter. Melchior Klesl (Cleselius) (1552-1630), Austrian bishop statesman. Melchior Weiher (1574-1643), Polish nobleman. Melchior Goldast ab Haiminsfeld (1576-1635), Swiss writer. Melchior Franck (1579–1639), German composer of the very early Baroque era. Melchior Grodziecki (1584–1619), Catholic saint. Melchior Inchofer (Imhofer) (c. 1584-1648), Jesuit who took part in Galileo's trial. Melchior Schildt (1592/93–1667), German composer and organist. Melchior Cibinensis, 16th century Hungarian alchemical writer. Melchior d'Hondecoeter (1636-1695), Dutch animalier.
[SURNAME]
Pattou, Etienne. Family of Sans-Avoir. WWW. 2004.
Sources:
Cartulaires de Saint-Martin-des-Champs, Saint-Merry de Paris et de Porrois (Port-Royal-des-Champs, Sorbonne, Depoin) Cartulaire d’Abbécourt (Société Historique du Vexin, J. Depoin)
Ile-de-France
Arms:
«{Field} three chevrons {tincture}» (Poissy and Garancières) Seal and arms of Hugues Sans-Avoir (1227) «Gules a cross argent» (as the Prior of Mondeville) or (better attested): «Gules a cross flory argent» (from the Armorial of Charles VI)
Variants of the Sans-Avoir arms, or families of the same name
Lineage: Annotated Internal Collated Commentary 2011-6 Letter
Comment by Gunnvor silfraharr on 2011/06/04 01:24:34 CDT: Last edited on 2011/06/04 01:28:14 CDT
I did a bunch more digging around to get some good dated, examples of the given name with non-normalized spellings. Here's what I turned up:
Crowe, Joseph Archer, and Giovanni Battista Cavalcaselle. The Early Flemish Painters: Notices of Their Lives and Works. 2nd ed. London: John Murray. 1872. pp. 13- 22.
Melchior Hoffman (or Hofmann) (c. 1495–1543) was an Anabaptist prophet and a visionary leader in northern Germany and the Netherlands.
Lau, Georg Johann Theodor. Geschichte der Einführung und Verbreitung der Reformation: in den Herzogthümern Schleswig-Holstein bis zum Ende des sechszehnten Jahrhunderts. G. E. Rolte (Heroldsche Buchhandlung), 1867.
O'Brien, Kathleen M. Names Found in Ambleny Registers 1578-1616. WWW. 2005-2006.
Uckelman, Sara L. Masculine Names from Artois, 1601. WWW. 2002, 2004, 2009.
Boehmer, Eduard and Benjamin Barron Wiffen. Spanish Reformers of Two Centuries from 1520. Bibliotheca Wiffeniana, Vol. 3. Strassburg: Karl J Trübner. 1904. pp. 153, 185-193.
Martin P. ed. Melchior Franck: Paradisus Musicus. Madison Wisconsin: A-R Editions, Inc. 2000. p. 2 & 4.
Cano, Melchor. De Locis Theologicis. Ed. Juan Belda Plans. Madrid: Biblioteca de Autores Cristianos. 2006.
Cerbu, Thomas. "Melchior Inchofer: Un Homme Fin & Rise". in: José Montesinos and Carlos Solís (eds.), Largo campo di filosofare. Eurosymposium Galileo 2001. La Orotava, Tenerife: Fundación Canaria Orotava de Historia de la Ciencia. 2001. p. 557-611. Melchior Inchofer (c. 1585-1648) Hungarian Jesuit.
Cramer, Reinhold. Geschichte der Lande Lauenburg und Bütow. Vol. 1. Königsberg. 1858. p. 110, 224-261.
Comment by Tostig Logiosophia (Eclipse) on 2011/06/04 08:19:07 CDT: [Device] Consider the reblazon, "Azure, two scythes, the points conjoined, and a chief triangular argent." The fact that the points of the blades are touching is blazonable.
Consider identfiability. IMO the combination of conjoining and small surface area/width requires close examination to determine the primary charge type. Rearranging them outwards so there's an equal distance between the points and sides may be sufficient.
No conflicts observed.
Comment by Gunnvor silfraharr on 2011/06/04 16:37:34 CDT: As the scythes are now, they suggest the letter "M", which may be intentional considering the given name. I'd just fatten them up a bit.
Comment by Aron ulfr' (Asterisk) on 2011/06/04 23:03:08 CDT: New Scan of artwork
1.
Comment by Magnus on 2011/06/11 21:24:52 CDT: Last edited on 2011/06/11 22:33:29 CDT [Name] No conflict found. Melchior - Late Period German Masculine Given Names Names from 16th Century Plauen by Talan Gwynek http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/names/germmasc.html#plauen16 1501-1550 Melchior
German Names from 1495 by Aryanhwy merch Catmael www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/german/german1495.html s.n. Melchior has Melchior.
German Names from Rottweil, Baden-Württemberg, 1441 by Aryanhwy merch Catmael www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/german/rottweil1441.html Masculine Names s.n. Melchior has Melchior.
I suspect the hyphen is post period.
[Device] No conflict found.
Comment by Gunnvor silfraharr on 2011/06/18 04:27:15 CDT: Last edited on 2011/06/18 04:33:47 CDT
Magnus' remark about the hyphen being post period, combined with insomnia, has had me digging through cartularies with better period forms of the surname.
Comment by Magnus on 2011/06/18 04:45:28 CDT: Thank you again Gunnvor. There may be a precedent that needs to be overturned.
Comment by Gunnvor silfraharr on 2011/06/18 17:02:30 CDT: I am pretty certain that all the Latin
Comment by Adelaide de Beaumont on 2011/06/17 16:21:13 CDT: I have shown this to a number of people, and not one has correctly identified the charges. The bizarre heart-shape arrangement is not reproduceable from blazon. The staves should be as near vertical as possible (this will necessitate smaller scythes) and the blades must not touch.
Comment by Gunnvor silfraharr on 2011/06/18 02:03:29 CDT: Last edited on 2011/06/18 04:36:39 CDT Annotated Internal Collated Commentary 2011-6 Letter Maybe: Azure, two scythes in chevron inverted, blades to center conjoined at the tips, and a chief pointed argent.
Consider:
Per chevron throughout Or and azure, two needles in chevron gules and a domestic cat rampant guardant Or. [Þora Sigurðardóttir, March 2010 LOAR] Per pale invected argent and sable, two daggers in chevron counterchanged, a mount gules. [Catarina Veronese, April 2007 LOAR] Sable, on a tower argent a heart gules, in chief two rapiers in chevron tips crossed proper. [Nigell Westcastle, February 2007 LOAR] Azure, on a pall between a bridge of three arches and two spoons in chevron inverted argent three knives in pall handles to center azure. [Jacob Simon of Carolingia, October 2004 LOAR] Gules, on a chevron argent two axes in chevron heads to center sable and in base a tankard Or. [Magnus of the East, January 2004 LOAR] Per chevron inverted azure and sable, a cinquefoil Or and two arrows inverted in chevron inverted argent. [Adelheidis Spätauf, September 2003 LOAR] Per chevron gules and argent, a chevron throughout between two arrows inverted in chevron and an eagle rising wings displayed all counterchanged Or and gules. [Aidan Sceotend æt thæm Mistigum Merum, February 1992 LOAR] Sable, on a pile inverted throughout between two swords in chevron argent, a wolf sejant ululant sable. [Draigen MacConn, June 1990 LOAR]
Comment by Tostig Logiosophia (Eclipse) on 2011/06/18 21:09:20 CDT: [Device] The cited examples of charges arranged "in chevron" by Gunnvor involve rectangular objects (needles, daggers/rapiers/swords, arrows and axes). The L- shape of the scythes does not really match the examples. The closest (sub)ordinary arrangement to describe them I see is "in pile". I agree with Gunnvor that it's blazonable - but I still share Adelaide's identifiability concerns. Blazonability and identifiability are not the same things.
Comment by Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor Herald) on 2011/06/28 14:23:07 CDT: It’s called “a chief triangular”.
College Action:
Name: Sent to Laurel as
Device:Sent to Laurel reblazoned as""Azure, two scythes in pile, the points conjoined, and a chief triangular argent."
13. Minna de Vouges (Adlersrhue, Shire of ) New Name and Device. Sable, a chevron argent azure, in chief three estoiles argent, in base bendwise a salmon argent.
Major Changes: Yes Minor Changes: Yes Gender: Female Change for: Sound: Mina Devaux Documentation Provided:
Comment by Andrewe Bawldwyn (Star) on 2011/06/01 14:12:00 CDT: [Device] Reblazon: Per chevron sable and azure, a chevron between three estoiles fesswise and a salmon bendwise argent.
Comment by Tostig Logiosophia (Eclipse) on 2011/06/04 08:57:22 CDT: [Device] @ Bordure. The estoilles are arranged in fess rather than oriented fesswise. I agree the arrangement needs to be specified (I would expect 1 and 2 without it). Consider the blazon "Per chevron sable and azure, a chevron between three estoilles in fess and a fish bendwise argent."
With three charge types on the field, the submission is not simple under RfS X.2.
Seems 2 CD clear versus "Per chevron sable and azure, a chevron between two feathers and a falcon passant argent." (Cian Gillebhrath, Device, Jan 1993) with change to type and number of the secondary charge group -- none for arrngement or orientation of less than half the charges. Also seems 2 CD clear versus "Per chevron sable and azure, a chevron between two wolves combattant and a ship argent atop a ford proper." (William Silverwolf, Device, June 1992) with change to type and arrangement of the secondary charge group. No conflicts observed checking under Estoilles. Annotated Internal Collated Commentary 2011-6 Letter Comment by Gunnvor silfraharr on 2011/06/01 18:17:50 CDT: Last edited on 2011/06/01 20:22:38 CDT
[NAME] Mix of English and French, with Vouges specifically a placename in France.
[DEVICE] I can't believe she missed the opportunity to have the fish be a minnow for the cant.
Moule, Thomas. Heraldry of Fish: Notices of the Principal Families Bearing Fish in Their Arms. London: John van Voorst. 1842. p. 99:
"THE MINNOW. Most of the brooks and rivers of England produce minnows, beautiful little fish, swimming in shoals on the gravelly bottom of the stream: they are borne in arms by the family of Picton. Argent, three minnows, or pinks, in pale gules. It may be supposed when a number of fish appear as a charge those of a small size are intended, as in the arms of Coupir: Azure, a bend engrailed between six fishes hauriant argent. Minnows are so named in reference to their small size; and on account of the bright red colour that pervades the under parts of the fish, they are called pinks, a name by which the salmon of the first year are also known."
Comment by Magnus on 2011/06/11 20:45:23 CDT: Last edited on 2011/06/11 20:52:13 CDT [Name] No conflict found.
Minna - Reaney & Wilson s.n. Minn has Minna as a woman's name from 1202. de Vouges - French Names from Chastenay, 1448-1457 by Aryanhwy merch Catmael http://heraldry.sca.org/names/french/chastenay.html Men's names Colin Vouges; Colin de Vouges 1448, 1449, 1450, 1451, 1453, 1454, 1455, 1456, 1457.
[Device] No conflict found.
Comment by Minna Devaux on 2011/06/27 14:49:13 CDT: Hello all and thank you for your input. I would like to correct the name I would like to have passed. I have been using "Devaux" but I was told it would not pass so I settled for "De Vouges" that I’m not so fond of. I did some looking and I have noted that many others use the name "Devaux" in the SCA and that it as well is French and was hoping I could make this change.
Comment by Tostig Logiosophia (Eclipse) on 2011/06/27 20:23:05 CDT: [Name] Don't have Dauzet, so hopefully the desired spelling can be found there. The closest I can find online is "Devaulx"
Comment by Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor Herald) on 2011/06/28 14:29:49 CDT: *Name+ Sources need to be summarized! Minna is dated to 1202 in” Feminine Given Names in A Dictionary of English Surnames” by Talan Gwynek -- http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/reaneyHZ.html Geffray de Vouges is dated to 1457 in “French Names from Chastenay, 1448-1457” by Sara L. Uckelman (there are numerous examples of this surname in the source dating from 1448-1457). No conflicts found *Device+ How about “Per chevron sable and azure, a chevron between three estoiles and a salmon naiant bendwise argent”? No conflicts found.
College Action:
Name: Sent to Laurel with a note that the submitter would prefer
Device: "Per chevron sable and azure, a chevron between three estoilles in fess and a fish bendwise argent."
14. Mongo Checheg (Steppes, Barony of) Resubmitted Badge. Fieldless, a cat sejant erect sinister ermined.
Annotated Internal Collated Commentary 2011-6 Letter Consultation Table: Gulf Wars Submission History: Vyolante Drago do Porto Name for alternate persona for Mongo Checheg ILoI 2/11 7 Kingdom accepted 3/11 (AG 4/11) Badge (purple flower) ILoI 2/11 8 Kingdom returned 3/11 (AG 4/11)
Comment by Andrewe Bawldwyn (Star) on 2011/06/01 14:13:04 CDT: Reblazon: (Fieldless) A cat sejant erect contourny ermine.
Comment by Tostig Logiosophia (Eclipse) on 2011/06/04 09:03:52 CDT: Concur with proporpsed blazon provided by Bordure.
Seems 2 CD clear versus "Vert, a catamount rampant guardant contourny and a chief wavy ermine." (Edelinne de Bayonne, Device, Nov 2004) for fieldless and removal of the peripheral charge.
Comment by Magnus on 2011/06/09 11:19:34 CDT: Last edited on 2011/06/09 19:09:02 CDT [Badge] No conflict found.
Vyolante Drago do Porto registered April 2011 (via Ansteorra).
This badge should be listed under the primary name Vyolante Drago do Porto.
The alternate name is on the Ansteorra - 2011-03-26 #6 Mongo Checheg.
Submission History: 8. Vyolante Drago do Porto New Badge. (Fieldless) “A violet purpure.” College Action: Badge: Returned for conflict with "(Fieldless) A heartsease proper. [Viola tricolor]" (Elspeth of Harilow, Badge, Apr 1985). There is 1 CD for fieldlessness, but no CD for a violet versus a heartsease.
9. Vyolante Drago do Porto New Badge. (Fieldless) “A violet argent.” College Action: Badge: Returned for conflict with “(Fieldless) A rose argent.” Important non-SCA badge reserved to the House of York. There is 1 CD for fieldlessness, no CD for a rose versus a violet.
Comment by Vyolante Drago do Porto on 2011/06/10 09:20:23 CDT: Two Badges for Two Things, However it needs to go up - but I will be using this one primarily for Mongo and the other Primarily for Vyolante. Mongo is currently in commentary at society.
Comment by Magnus on 2011/06/10 10:38:38 CDT: Everything is filed under a primary name. That's just the way the SCA's forty year old filing system works and doesn't affect how the submitter uses their items.
Comment by Vyolante Drago do Porto on 2011/06/13 10:49:50 CDT: Cool :D
College Action:
Device: Sent to Laurel reblazoned as "(Fieldless) A cat sejant erect contourny ermine."
15. Peter Rhys (Steppes, Barony of) New Name and Device. Per fess indented azure and argent, a latin cross inverted and a small mullet counterchanged.
Documentation Provided:
(My emphasis).
Comment by Alys Langton on 2011/06/01 22:22:32 CDT: Last edited on 2011/06/01 22:24:04 CDT The submitter intended this to be a cross of St. Peter. As St. Peter was hung upside down on the cross. The submitter was not wishing this to be offensive, but highly religious. I only know this as I was the one doing his consultation at Gulf Wars. I had the same concern about the inverted cross until he explained it to me.
Comment by Gunnvor silfraharr on 2011/06/01 22:38:39 CDT: It's not so much what the submitter meant here, but how others will view it. Since that precedent is sitting out there and specifically calls out the combo of an inverted cross + five-pointed star, unless there is a more recent precedent I missed this is probably a question to be sent up.
Comment by Andrewe Bawldwyn (Star) on 2011/06/01 23:08:28 CDT: For what it's worth, I saw this as a reference to St Peter primarily, and the upside down cross as a symbol of Satanism did not enter my mind as a problem until reading the commentary.
I don't have an issue with the cross and mullet together, so long as the mullet isn't voided and interlaced and conjoined to an annulet ;-)
Laurel may, however, feel different.
Comment by Gunnvor silfraharr on 2011/06/02 01:19:52 CDT: I also saw it as a Cross of St. Peter, but given that particular text in the precedent I think it has to be ruled on. Better to call it out now than stub our toes on it later.
Comment by Tostig Logiosophia (Eclipse) on 2011/06/04 09:23:31 CDT: Last edited on 2011/06/04 22:06:38 CDT [Device] I also saw the submission and, prior to reading the proposed blazon, went to check if there was a heraldic charge called a 'Cross of Saint Peter' among the multitude of varients (Didn't find one in Parker or the PicDic). I also saw, however, the potential of some seeing the submission as satanic symbolism. IMO, even if the bottom charge were a pentacal rather than a mullet, the submission is not offensive under RfS IX.2: "Offensive Religious Symbolism. - Magical or religious symbolism that is excessive or mocks the beliefs of others will not be registered. "Magical or religious symbolism is not usually inherently offensive, but offends by context. Both devotees and opponents of a particular religion may be offended by an excessive display of the symbols of that religion, for example, a Calvary cross surrounded by four Paschal Lambs and surmounted by a crown of thorns and a whip. Similarly, although a Paschal Lamb is a standard heraldic charge, dismembering the lamb and surmounting it by a pentacle creates a context that could be offensive."
Consider "Per fess indented azure and argent, a latin cross inverted and a mullet counterchanged." versus "Per fess indented of two points azure and argent, a Latin cross and a mullet of six points counterchanged." (Galfridus de Gaillard, Device, Jan 1992). I see 1 CD for inverting the same variant of cross, but nothing for the number of indents in the field or the number of points of the mullet.
Comment by Tigern on 2011/06/04 23:46:15 CDT: Keeping with all the comments about stars, etc, but NOT anything to do with conflicts, it occurred to me that if the idea is to be specifically Christian religious, making the star a Bethlehem star would clear the possible offense issue while further strengthening the religious connotations.
Comment by Þorkell ǫlfúss on 2011/06/07 12:01:19 CDT: Last edited on 2011/06/07 12:10:48 CDT the device that set the precedence mentioned earlier is/was Per chevron gules and argent, two rams combattant and a Latin cross inverted counterchanged. there was a more recent one that passed however the inverted cross was the sole charge: Sable, a Latin cross inverted throughout gules fimbriated and cotised argent. on a personal note, i too looked at it as a cross of st peter, however, ansteorra is pretty much in the bible belt, especially around Dallas, and a device is one of the first things someone will see about the SCA ( it was for me ) and people tend to misconstrue what they do not know... I like this device... but would caution against the possibility of negative "press" yes it might be period... however so to is the fylfot cross, we do not use it due to the possibility of offense
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I also bring to you an excerpt from Assorted Lessons in SCA Heraldry Edited By Jaelle of Armida. (mka Judy Gerjuoy)
Section I of the Rules for Submissions, General Principles, says: "Offense - No name or armory will be registered that may be offensive to a significant segment of the Annotated Internal Collated Commentary 2011-6 Letter Society or the general population. No submission wilt be registered that is detrimental to the educational purposes or good name of the Society, or the enjoyment of its participants because of offense that may be caused, intentionally or unintentionally, by its use.
Further Part IX, Offensive Armory reads: "Offensive armory may not be registered, as is required by General Principle 2 of these rules. Armory may be innately offensive from its content, or because of its usual associations or the context in which it is placed, such as the swastika which, although used in period armory, is so strongly associated With the Third Reich that it offends a large segment of the population. Armory may be considered offensive even if the submitter did not intend it to be. This section defines the categories of designs that tire generally considered offensive
Comment by Magnus on 2011/06/07 13:11:44 CDT: This issue was settled long ago in the SCA.
------[October 1998 LoAR, A-Atenveldt]
Aaron Graves. Name and device. Per chevron gules and argent, two rams combattant and a Latin cross inverted counterchanged.
The question was raised as to whether an inverted cross would be considered offensive or would be considered to be mocking religion. Laurel, who is Jewish, does not know enough about Christianity to decide this issue without further information. Laurel received a letter from a Methodist Minister who is also an SCA herald, which provided us with the necessary information with which to decide this issue. We quote her letter in full.
Unto Mistress Jaelle of Armida, Laurel Queen of Arms, from the Reverend Kathryn F. Bell, known within the Society as Lady Petronilla Goodwin, Greetings!
This letter is in response to your request for my professional opinion of the display of a Latin Cross inverted.
It is my opinion that such a charge is, in and of itself, not offensive. The use of such a symbol to represent overtly anti-Christian sentiment is postperiod and not widespread. Within period this was used frequently as an emblem of St. Peter, who by tradition was crucified upside down as he did not feel worthy to die in the same manner as Christ. I could send you bibliographic references if you wish.
Were a Latin Cross inverted displayed with other charges which could be taken in the twentieth century as "satanic" (such as a mullet of five points, a skull, gouts, and a candle) then I would have difficulty interpreting it as a period charge, but in the blazon you described I find it entirely acceptable.
Grace and Peace to you and the College of Arms. I hope this is helpful.
Done the sixth day of October, 1998. Sincerely, Kathryn F. Bell United Methodist Pastor ------
And the pentagram is now registrable as a religious symbol and it is far more associated by the ignorant with the darker arts.
------[March 2009 LoAR, A-Æthelmearc]
Ailis Linne. Badge. (Fieldless) A mullet of five points voided and interlaced within and conjoined to an annulet azure.
There is a long history of rulings regarding the unregisterability of mullets voided and interlaced (also known as pentacles or pentagrams), beginning as early as 1973 by Ioseph of Locksley and including rulings or correspondence in 1976, 1978, 1979, 1990, 1994, and 1996. The ruling in 1990 was appealed to the Board of Directors, as reflected and discussed on the April 1991 Cover Letter. As specified in that Cover Letter, the primary argument against the registerability of this charge was that "the device was not returned for its specific religious content as perceived by the submitter and her co-religionists, but for the specific anti-religious content as perceived by a far larger number of people, both within and without the SCA." The 1996 ruling was an appeal of a return from 1994, and after considering the various arguments, the then Laurel King of Arms, Da'ud ibn Auda, felt "compelled to uphold the prior precedents disallowing the registration of mullets of five points voided and interlaced, whether within and conjoined to an annulet or standing by themselves. [Based on the evidence presented, s]uch charges still are perceived by a significant portion of the population as [a] "satanic symbol", and hence cannot be registered by the College."
The current submission presents extensive documentation showing that the pentacle or pentagram is no longer perceived as a specifically satanic symbol. Instead, it has become more closely recognized as a symbol of the Wiccan religion. For example, the US military services have acknowledged the Wiccan religion in their Chaplain's handbook since at least 1990, and, more recently, the association of the pentacle with the Wiccan religion was acknowledged by the US government when the pentacle became the Wiccan religious symbol allowed on the government-furnished headstones of fallen US soldiers.
We received a large amount of commentary on this submission from the College, and the consensus was overwhelmingly in favor of dropping the ban on this charge. We hereby overturn the ruling from 1996, and allow the registration of mullets voided and interlaced, both inverted and not, and both conjoined to annulets and not, so long as the overall design in which this charge is used does not otherwise violate RfS IX.2 Offensive Religious Symbolism. ------
I suspect anyone who took serious offense at this device would be politely asked to be somewhere else by the SCA for the enjoyment of its participants.
Comment by Andrewe Bawldwyn (Star) on 2011/06/07 21:29:20 CDT: It has been my experience that offensive armory really does take a LOT to trigger that as a reason for return. In this case, I don't see a sufficient level of apparent offense to deal with it in Kingdom and it has to go to CoA for Wreath to rule on. I would be surprised if the majority of CoA commenters found this offensive, given the reactions to a device we sent up a few months back with strong documentation that the charge was the hungarian equivalent of the nazi swastika. Annotated Internal Collated Commentary 2011-6 Letter Comment by Vyolante Drago do Porto on 2011/06/10 09:24:22 CDT: In the Bible belt most Christians would find the pentacle/pentagram just as offensive and we register those.
Comment by Magnus on 2011/06/11 14:45:44 CDT: Last edited on 2011/06/11 18:31:41 CDT [Name] No conflict found.
Rhys - Bardsley s.n. Lewis has Lewis ap Rhys from 1502.
ACADEMY OF SAINT GABRIEL REPORT 2987 Forms of
In the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries, the name spread into central and northern Wales.
By the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries, the name was common throughout Wales. The usual Welsh forms were
The modern Welsh spelling
[2] Bartrum, Peter C., A Welsh Classical Dictionary: People in history and legend up to about A.D. 1000 Aberystwyth: The National Library of Wales, 1993.
[3] Evans, J. Gwenogvryn, The Text of the Book of Llan Dav Aberystwyth: National Library of Wales, 1979 (Facsimile of the 1893 Oxford edition).
[4] Bartrum, P.C., Early Welsh Genealogical Tracts (Cardiff: University of Wales Press, 1966). Harleian genealogies:
[13] Bartrum 1966, 50. Jesus College MS. 20, written in the mid to late 14th c., but whose orthography 'indicate[s] that the source ... was written in Old Welsh orthography prior to 1200' has an instance of
[14] Jones, Francis, "Welsh Bonds for Keeping the Peace, 1283 and 1295" in Bulletin of the Board of Celtic Studies 13: 142-144, 1950.
[15] Jones, Thomas ed., Brut y Tywysogyon (Peniarth Ms. 20). Cardiff: University of Wales Press, 1941.
[16] Dwnn, Lewys, ed. By Samuel Rush Meyrick. Heraldic Visitations of Wales and Part of the Marches (vols I & II). Llandovery: Welsh Manuscripts Society, 1846.
[17] Willis-Bund, J.W. The Black Book of St. David's (British Museum Additional Mss., No. 34,125.). London: The Honourable Society of Cymmrodorion, 1902.
[18] Seebohm, Frederic, Tribal System in Wales. London: Longmans, Green & Co, 1895.
[19] Bartrum 1966. Jesus College MS. genealogies
[20] Bartrum 1966. HL, ABT.
[21] Bullock-Davies, Constance, A Register of Royal and Baronial Domestic Minstrels 1272 1327. Woodbridge: The Boydell Press, 1986.
[22] Rees, William, "Ministers' Accounts (General Series), Bundle 1158, No. 3 (Public Record Office -- Accounts of the Ministers for the Lands of the Crown in West Wales for the financial year 1352-3" in Bulletin of the Board of Celtic Studies 10:60-83,139-156, 156-271. 1941.
[23] Roderick, A.J., & William Rees, "Ministers' Accounts for the Lordships of Abergavenny, Grosmont, Skenfrith and White Castle: PRO, Ministers' Accounts Bundle 1094, No. 11; Part I -- The Lordship of Abergavenny" in South Wales and Monmouth Record Society Publications: No. 2. 1950.
[24] Lewis, E.A., "The Toll Books of Some North Pembrokeshire Fairs (1599-1603)" in Bulletin of the Board of Celtic Studies vol. 7. 1934.
[Device] Blazon as: "Per fess indented azure and argent, a Latin cross inverted and mullet counterchanged." Conflict with Galfridus de Gaillard January 1992 (via the East): "Per fess indented of two points azure and argent, a Latin cross and a mullet of six points counterchanged." One CD for inverting the cross. Nothing for six vs five points on a mullet.
Comment by Adelaide de Beaumont on 2011/06/17 16:17:50 CDT: I wish Peter(s) was his surname, because I can't stand references to given names in arms, but I totally get that Peter and an inverted cross is a not unexpected idea.
Comment by Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor Herald) on 2011/06/28 14:32:01 CDT: *Name+ Sources need to be summarized! “Late Sixteenth Century English Given Names” by Talan Gwynek is a non-photocopy source found at -- http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/names/eng16/eng16alpha.html. Both Peter and Rhys are found here, but Rhys is spelled Reece and Rees (twice each) with a note that these are all Welshmen. I would expect to see Peter ap Rhys for a Welshman in Wales. Annotated Internal Collated Commentary 2011-6 Letter Reaney and Wilson, however, date Walter Rys to 1327, sn Rhys, etc. A Welshman living in England might well have had the name as shown, though the spellings Rys, Ris, Rees, etc. might be more likely than Rhys. No conflicts found. *Device+ “Latin” is a proper adjective. “Per fess indented azure and argent, a Latin cross inverted and a mullet counterchanged.” Consider Galfridus de Gaillard. reg. 1/92 via the East: “Per fess indented of two points azure and argent, a Latin cross and a mullet of six points counterchanged.” There may be one CD for inverting the cross. There is no CD between mullets of five and mullets of six points: “... there is no difference between mullets of five points and mullets of six points. There is a wealth of period evidence showing that mullets may be drawn either with five or six points as artist's license, with Continental armorists showing a preference for six-pointed mullets and British artists showing a preference for five-pointed mullets. The general SCA practices for difference of mullets of various numbers of points have been unchanged for some years but were summarized in the February 2002 LoAR: "The rules for change of type of mullets follow the rules for change of number of charges. Mullets of n points will get a CD from mullets of m points if RfS X.4.f gives a CD for changing the number of charges from n to m." RfS X.4.f does not give difference between groups of five charges and six charges, and therefore our general SCA practice for determining difference between these types of mullets conveniently matches the period practice.” *Brian macSeyfang, 06/2002, R-Atenveldt]
College Action:
Name: Sent to Laurel
Device: Return for conflict with Galfridus de Gaillard. reg. 1/92 via the East: “Per fess indented of two points azure and argent, a Latin cross and a mullet of six points counterchanged.”
16. Philippe Le Chanceux (Bjornsborg, Barony of ) New Name and Device. Purpure, a semy of horseshoes inverted argent.
Major Changes: Yes Minor Changes: Yes Gender: Male Change for: Meaning: Documentation Provided:
Comment by Tostig Logiosophia (Eclipse) on 2011/06/04 10:01:21 CDT: [Device] (Playing ELP while conflict checking) Are strewn charges considered primary charges when they're the only charge group on the field? If so, seems 2 CD clear versus "(Fieldless) A horseshoe inverted argent." (Stromgard, Barony of, Badge, March 2004) For the field and nummber differences. If not, seems clear versus versus "Purpure, semy of unicorns rampant Or." (Thyra Jadvardsdottir, Device, Dec 1996) for changes to type and tincture only since X2 wouldn't apply. Consider versus "Purpure scaly argent." (Elizabeth Little, Device, Sep 2005). Technically clear, this may be a visual conflict to decide upon at the CoA level.
Comment by Magnus on 2011/06/10 22:19:06 CDT: Last edited on 2011/06/10 22:52:40 CDT See http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=9567 for a depiction of scaly. You wouldn't mix up the submitted armory with a scaly version.
Comment by Magnus on 2011/06/11 09:25:30 CDT: Last edited on 2011/06/11 13:08:21 CDT [Name] No conflict found. The lack of documentation for Le Chanceux is a problem.
Middle English Dictionary http://quod.lib.umich.edu/m/med/lookup.html s.n. chaunce [Old French chëa(u)nce, këanche, chance.] 3. One's luck, lot, or fate (whether good or bad);
Reaney & Wilson s.n. Chance has Robert, Ralph Chance 1209; Middle English chea(u)nce Old French cheance in one of its senses, 'fortune, accident, mischance, luck' c1300.
The name looks period but needs the correct French grammar.
[Device] No conflict found. Fewer horseshoes would be better. The drawing looks fine. I see no evidence of tracing or that it was done quickly. Annotated Internal Collated Commentary 2011-6 Letter Comment by Eirik Halfdanarson (Bordure Herald) on 2011/06/27 11:28:17 CDT: The color emblazon has been redone and I will post it in a bit.
Comment by Eirik Halfdanarson (Bordure Herald) on 2011/06/27 11:28:23 CDT: The color emblazon has been redone and I will post it in a bit.
Comment by Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor Herald) on 2011/06/28 14:33:16 CDT: [Name] We see nothing documenting the surname as a surname. *Device+ “Semy” is NOT a noun. No conflicts found.
College Action:
Name: Sent to Laurel
Device: Sent to Laurel
17. Ricárd Valentinius Parvifeles (Glaslyn, Canton of ) New Name and Device. Argent, on a cheif gules, a loin passant argent, a constantine's cross gules.
Consultation Table: Paid for at Gulf Wars Major Changes: No. Minor Changes: Yes. Gender: Male. Change for: Language/Culture: 5th Century Roman with Alan / Sarmation / Hunnic / Breton Heritage. Documentation Provided: Richard Little Cat Alannic / Sarmatian Heritage - Ricard Old Germanic / Frankish Heritags - Ricohard Latin Heritaga - Ricardus Taking Ricard and applying Latin Vulgate for a Christian of Roman Society - it becomes Ricárd with a strong accented a. lt can be pronounced Richard or Richarde (Rishard) depending on culture and location in Western Europe at the time. Valentinius ls a byname taken by the family when made citizens of Rome. As was the custom for Empire, new citizens often took a byname honoring the reigning emperor or an important dignitary. In this case, Valenlinan lll. Lastly, the nick name "Little Cat" uses the Latin Parvi- for little, small, diminutive; and Feles for cat (can also mean thief - and that becomes Parvifeles. Freereg-rootsweb.com (ancestry.co.uk); archives.nd.edu/latgramm.htm ; www.behindthename.com I am most concerned with keeping the lirst name Ricard or Richarde - suitably spelled to fit with a 5th Century Roman with relevant ancestry. l would also like to keep the nickname "Little Cat", if you come up with a better and more plausible term to reflect this I am open to the change if Parvifeles is not a candidate. The byname is completely immaterial to me. lt is historically sound and proper for my personae, so I use it. Attached, please find additional insight into my personae and name.
Comment by Andrewe Bawldwyn (Star) on 2011/06/01 14:14:10 CDT: Attack of the Crayon armory! I believe, to appease other commenters, that this one squeaks by. Asterisk informs me, that this was photocopied from the original artwork and turned in by the submitter, thus skirting around the No Crayons or Map Pencils rule.
Comment by Gunnvor silfraharr on 2011/06/02 01:22:04 CDT: Even photocopied Crayon bothers me, because the color is somewhere in between gules and carnation.
Comment by Andrewe Bawldwyn (Star) on 2011/06/02 09:28:38 CDT: Yes indeedy. But we can't return it because it's technically not crayon...
Now the color issue - the CoA might definitely have a fit at that red, because it's not a true heraldic red. If the CoH feels it's not the right shade, this could be returned for a re-draw on those grounds.
The chi-rho also has a bit of "grey" to it.
Comment by Tostig Logiosophia (Eclipse) on 2011/06/04 13:10:37 CDT: [Administrative] The following precedent probably covers the situation best: Mæva matbúðarkona. Name and device. Sable, three pomegranates slipped and leaved, stems conjoined in pall, and a chief Or. "The original emblazon was apparently colored with crayons and then photocopied, resulting in an Or that was barely acceptable." (LoAR June 2005, Acceptances-An Tir) Annotated Internal Collated Commentary 2011-6 Letter
Unless the submitter would like to put the care in recoloring the artwork now as they did with the name documentation, the fate of taking shortcuts won't be known until the CoA results are published in several months.
Comment by Aron ulfr' (Asterisk) on 2011/06/04 22:04:19 CDT: Scan of new artwork.
1.
Comment by Gunnvor silfraharr on 2011/06/06 08:27:00 CDT: Huge improvement! Good job.
Comment by Þorkell ǫlfúss on 2011/06/07 11:31:40 CDT: I agree, much better however.. is the constantine cross not sable instead of gules as mentioned in the blazon? i would reblazon it Argent, on a cheif gules, a loin passant argent, a constantine's cross sable.
Comment by Tostig Logiosophia (Eclipse) on 2011/06/07 12:26:51 CDT: [Device] @ Þorkell. The blazon has the primary charge tinctured gules, but the tincture of the original emblazon was sable. What's registered is the emblazon.
The SCA registers this symbol as a "chi-rho" rather than a "constatine's cross". The primary charge is the first thing blazoned after the field. Below was my propsed reblazon "Argent, a chi-rho sable, on a chief gules a lion passant argent."
Comment by Leonor Ruiz de Lison on 2011/06/01 15:40:37 CDT: Last edited on 2011/06/01 17:21:26 CDT Oooof. This is tough. First, the CoH does not register persona stories, only names, and for the most part historical peoples did not mix languages to show heritage, and it's nearly impossible here because Bretons, Franks, and Old Germans don't exist by the time of the Roman Empire.
Choose name elements from a single language or culture. It is common in the Society to attempt to show mixed parentage in your name, but this simply wasn't done in period. On the rare occasions where people from different cultures inter-married, their children were named according to the culture in which they lived. People moved to another country would either keep their old names, or use local equivalents. For instance, if a Frenchman named Jean settled in an Italian city, he might have been known to the Italians as Giovanni Francesco, i.e. Giovanni the Frenchman. If he married and had a son, the boy might be known by two forms of his name: one French, the other Italian. But there would be no circumstance in which anyone would call him something half French and half Italian.
(http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/dietmar/hints.html)
It would be sort of acceptable to do so here, IF the name conformed to a proper Roman tria nomina for someone of "barbarian" heritage: Roman praenomen + Roman nomen + barbarian personal name used as cognomen. Unfortunately, that's not what this is.
1. PRAENOMEN
The Romans used a very, very limited set of praenomina, none even remotely resembling
This article is an SCA-acceptable source (if somewhat difficult to follow in places and...not as broken down by time period as I would like, personally) with a list of acceptable praenomina: http://www.legionxxiv.org/nomens/
Please note that the "foreign names" would have been used as cognomina, not praenomina.
2. NOMEN
Valentinian III (Flavius Placidius Valentinianus) belonged to gens Flavia; Valentinianus is a cognomen; I do not believe it is a nomen, unless someone can find evidence of it as such (since it ends in -anus, it may be derived from a gens Valentia).
If the submitter wishes to name himself for the emperor, I would recommend using
3. COGNOMEN
In the earlier Empire, when someone became a Roman citizen, they typically took both the praenomen and nomen of the reigning emperor, or the official who sponsored their citizenship, often keeping their previous "barbarian" personal name as a cognomen. By the 5th century, aside from people who have recently Annotated Internal Collated Commentary 2011-6 Letter obtained citizenship, cognomina are almost all inherited--although in common use, they weren't true "nicknames," and they couldn't be just anything. "Little Cat" doesn't sound remotely like any cognomen I've seen.
I am not really up on Latin, but I think
SOME ALAN NAMES
These are all Alan personal names from Classical Latin sources, for which a case could probably be made as a cognomen of non-Roman origin. They are taken from Agustí Alemany, Sources on the Alans: A Critical Compilation (Leiden: Brill, 2000).
Addac (AD 418), reconstructed nominative from ablative case Beorger (AD 464) Eochar (AD 445/446), reconstructed nominative from genitive case Eunones (AD 49), a Greek name Rasparaganus (2nd century), a Latinized name Saphrax (375/380) Gelimer (530/533)
Most of these are names of kings; Rasparaganus actually seems to have been used as a cognomen.
There are also a few Alan names from medieval Latin sources which might be appropriate:
Candac (5th century) Sambida (440) Respendial (406) Sangibanus (5th century)
And from Greek sources:
Ardaboúrios, Latin form: Ardabur (5th century) Áspar, Latin form: Aspar (5th century))
The last two were used by an Alan soldier in Roman service, Flavius Ardabur Aspar. Ardabur is probably Aspar's father's name treated as a Roman nomen.
I'd recommend actually going to the book if the submitter decides to use one of these. I can ILL it and scan relevant pages if necessary.
RECOMMENDATION
If the submitter wants a Roman name that indicates Alan heritage and is willing to drop "Little Cat" (although he can certainly keep using it informally as a second cognomen if he likes it that much--I just would not recommend trying to register it), I would recommend
Praenomen - Something from an approved list of Roman praenomina Nomen -
So, for example,
I think this name needs to be returned for major reworking and clearer documentation. The persona story is not relevant and is distracting--the name and name form need to be documented clearly.
Edit: Also, I am more familiar with naming conventions of the early Empire--by the 5th century, the tria nomina isn't standard for citizens, and the St. Gabriel folks seem to think it was fairly unusual outside of the highest levels of society (I'm not sure I agree). So if he's set specifically on the 5th century, the name format may have to be modified accordingly (
The question of tria nomina or not is the least of the problems with the name, though.
Comment by Wihtric Wihtmunding on 2011/06/01 17:47:41 CDT: I did, for my part, try to help him and thought he had taken some of it to heart via a private discussion on Facebook. Despite his persona story I think if we look late Roman/early Migration (the very cusp of our period) Ricihardus or Ricardus _might_ work. There is the name Ricimer (A Flaviius Ricimer existed as a Goth general/dux in the mid-late 5th century in Roman service) and I think -hard does exist in another name to make a valid, if not wholly documented, construction as I thought we allowed taking name elements within cultures to construct reasonable names, though I admit about 15 minutes on Google has not shown any -hard element names. Please correct me if wrong. Again throwing off his preferred culture and remembering he can call himself whatever he wants after registering a name, there is a Salian leader by the name of Ricchar, which would be close and probably Latinized as Riccharus.
Comment by Leonor Ruiz de Lison on 2011/06/01 18:03:52 CDT: I think the persona story makes the name argument itself more confusing to follow.
We are allowed to take name elements within cultures to construct reasonable names, but "element" does not mean "any chunk of a name." For example, "Robert" Annotated Internal Collated Commentary 2011-6 Letter and "William" are both English names, but that doesn't mean "Robiam" is a plausible English name. The elements generally have to have semantic meaning and make sense together. Latin, unlike, say, Old English, is not very good for chopping into small semantic chunks and pasting them back together.
I would find Latinized Riccharus plausible as a cognomen, but not as a praenomen (in the first place of the name). Roman praenomina really were VERY limited. Ricimer would probably be arguable as a cognomen, too.
Tria nomina in the late 5th century might be a bit of an issue (5th century Roman names get WEIRD), but I think there would be enough leeway to register something like <[Praenomen] Flavius Riccharus> and just not worry about the precise date, if something that sounds vaguely like
Comment by Wihtric Wihtmunding on 2011/06/01 20:47:26 CDT: Well yes with Modern English names but if you break Hroðberht and Wilhelm, Hroðhelm might sound a bit dorky, but the name elements go in appropriate places, and plenty of period names have meanings which make little sense on the surface. I get though that LAtin is not so kind.
From Wikipedia (yes I know not a great source, but I have seen this on a few sites which are less cite worthy, as many are pagan reconstructionist sites.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_naming_conventions
(I don't know HTML so do not know how to construct links- sorry)
"As Rome conquered territories beyond the Italian peninsula, many foreign names were introduced. Discharged auxiliary soldiers and others gaining Roman citizenship could, and many did, continue to use at least a portion of their former names. Most were of Greek or Etruscan origin, while others came from regions that were brought under Roman influence. Non-citizen auxiliary soldiers who were granted citizenship often adopted the nomen of their Emperor, adding their native name as a cognomen.
New citizens often also took on the nomen of the reigning emperor. For instance, after Caracalla ("Marcus Aurelius Septimius Bassianus Antoninus") expanded citizenship to all freedmen in the empire, many of them took on the nomen Aurelius. (Caracalla's correct nomen was actually Septimius; "Aurelius" was a pretension to Roman nobility.)
Not sure if that helps. If that is the case then he could feasibly keep the Valentinianus in honor of that Emperor, thus Valentinianus Riccharus could be left to work with. As is, though I think this is a kickback regardless.
Comment by Leonor Ruiz de Lison on 2011/06/01 20:52:28 CDT: Yep--although, cautiously, the Wikipedia overview (while decent) doesn't separate well between the early and late Empire, and the late Empire is weird. The problem is that Valentinianus does not seem to be the emperor's nomen, but rather one of his cognomina. Flavius appears to be his nomen.
I mean, it's worth a shot, but it's a little iffy, barring something more concrete that suggests it's a nomen (the -anus is usually added to a nomen to make a cognomen, so I would be surprised).
Flavius Riccharus--still in honor of Valentinian III--would probably work fine, since praenomina don't seem to be as universal by this point (Flavius is also sometimes a praenomen by this point), or even Flavius Ricchar, since non-Roman cognomina weren't always Latinized.
Comment by Wihtric Wihtmunding on 2011/06/01 23:15:12 CDT: Flavius Placidius Valentinianus Augustus. Yes it is weird in that what would in classical period be his nomen/gens, Placidius is the masculine of a part of his mother's name Ælia Galla Placidia while Flavius is shared with his father Constantius.
Either way the name Flavius or some other nomen plus Ricchar, which as you state if similar to the historical Flavius Ricimer, can stay without Latinization or with it.
I will write the submitter when I get back from my trip over the next two days and see what he is willing to take.
Comment by Leonor Ruiz de Lison on 2011/06/01 23:30:09 CDT: Well, emperors always have weird names, which is why they should not be used as models!
I can dig up a bunch of examples of Romanized soldiers' unlatinized cognomina, if I need to. I think it was actually more common to leave them unchanged, actually, but I would have to do a little more research on the 5th century situation specifically.
*fingers crossed*
Comment by Gunnvor silfraharr on 2011/06/01 19:41:29 CDT: Last edited on 2011/06/01 22:46:14 CDT
[NAME] As has already been discussed in some detail, this name is both temporally and spacially disjointed.
Latin
The client's herald needs to sit down with him and find out more about what time and place he really wants. If he wants a 5th c. Roman name, then he needs to go to the Medieval Names Archive: Classical and Imperial Roman Names and read a bit more, then pick a name that fits the standard Roman naming practices. Annotated Internal Collated Commentary 2011-6 Letter If he's wedded to some form of
Academy of Saint Gabriel Report 437: Male Gothic Names from 300-600.
Carroll-Clark, Susan. Early Germanic Names from Primary Sources. WWW. 1992, 1997. From Gregory of Tours' 6th c. Historia Francorum (and I would REALLY like to see what they look like in the Latin text!):
Scott, Brian. 10th Century Frisian Masculine Names. WWW. 2001.
Nieuwenhuijsen, Kees. Names in the Low Lands before 1150. (The Netherlands and Flanders). WWW. 2006.
Scott, Brian M. Some Early Middle High German Bynames with Emphasis on Names from the Bavarian Dialect Area. WWW. 2004.
Nieuwenhuijsen, Kees. Names in the Low Lands 1250-1300. (Flanders, Holland, Brabant and Groningen). WWW. 2006.
Mittleman, Josh. Catalan Names from 12th and 13th Century Charters, WWW. 1997, 1999.
Catledge, Scott. An Index to the Given Names in the 1292 Census of Paris. WWW. 1996, 2005.
Ramons lo Montalbes. French/Occitan Names From The XII And XIII Century. WWW. 1997, 1999.
I would recommend something along the lines of
[DEVICE]Given that the "lions" on the british arms are blazoned as leopards, I make this: Argent, a chi-ro sable and on a chief gules a leopard passant argent.
I would also suggest elongating the cat, as in the attached example.
1. Annotated Internal Collated Commentary 2011-6 Letter Comment by Gunnvor silfraharr on 2011/06/01 22:18:49 CDT: Last edited on 2011/06/01 22:22:33 CDT
Gregorius Turonensis. Historia Francorum. Book II, Ch. 42.
"Veniens autem Chlodovechus, bellum contra eum instruit. At ille devictum cernens exercitum suum, fuga labi parat, sed ab exercitum conpraehensus ac ligatis postergum manibus in conspectu Chlodovechi una cum Richario fratre suo perducetur."
[Clovis came and made war on him, and he saw that his army was beaten and prepared to slip away in flight, but was seized by his army, and with his hands tied behind his back, he was taken with Ricchar his brother before Clovis.]
The Latin has
Comment by Wihtric Wihtmunding on 2011/06/01 23:18:07 CDT: Awesome, Gunnvör! One more option to pop his way. Thanks!
Comment by Leonor Ruiz de Lison on 2011/06/04 14:58:44 CDT: Oh, good. I thought
Comment by Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor Herald) on 2011/06/08 16:56:05 CDT: Like this?
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Comment by Gunnvor silfraharr on 2011/06/08 19:46:11 CDT: Pretty much. You find a lot of those stretched-out lions on chiefs, because heraldic artists REALLY liked things to fill the space they were in.
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Comment by Tostig Logiosophia (Eclipse) on 2011/06/22 12:34:05 CDT: [Name] I forwarded correspondence from the submitter to Bordure stating he is willing to accept "Ricardus Felicula", but did not notice the disparity between that and Gunnvor's suggestion of "Richdus felicula" until posting. (Have encouraged him via Oakenwald to attend the Decision Meeting)
Comment by Gunnvor silfraharr on 2011/06/22 14:46:36 CDT: All the Latinized forms appear to have
Comment by Tostig Logiosophia (Eclipse) on 2011/06/04 10:41:48 CDT: Last edited on 2011/06/06 10:38:13 CDT [Device] The SCA blazon term for the primary charge is 'Chi-rho'. "The defining example of an SCA heraldic chi-rho is in the device of Basilius Phocas, Gules, a chi-rho argent within an orle of bezants. It shows the proportions we would expect of a chi-rho in normal iconography; the chi (x-shaped part) is wider than, but not as tall as, the rho (p-shaped part)... (LoAR 2002, Returns Ansteorra-Jovianus Skleros). Consider the reblazon "Argent, a chi-rho sable, on a chief gules a lion passant argent." I cannot locate the charge on the Ordinary Master Index under Cross, Arrangement or as a stand alone charge. Checking only under 'Chief-Charged-Plain Line-gules' on the Index and 'chi-rho' on the Blazon Pattern no conflicts observed -- No lions with an argent field and the only registered chi-rho sable is a tertiary charge. (Added 6/6) The primary charge is listed under 'Symbol' in the O&A. Seems 2 CD clear versus "Argent, a blackletter initial 'B' between two birch leaves sable, on a chief gules a lion passant guardant argent." (John the Brewer, Device Jan 1997) with removal of secondaries and change of primary.
Comment by Magnus on 2011/06/10 22:10:52 CDT: Last edited on 2011/06/11 12:31:46 CDT Annotated Internal Collated Commentary 2011-6 Letter [Name] The sources of genealogy websites and behindthename should not be used. Persona stories should not be used to justify names. We register names not persona stories. The rest of the issues of the name are detailed in other commentary. The submitter is advised to pick one culture and form the name from there. The 5th century at least gives a definite time period.
[Device] No conflict found. Blazon as: "Argent, a chi-rho sable on a chief gules a lion passant argent." And please give the crayons to the kids and get some Crayola Classic markers.
Comment by Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor Herald) on 2011/06/28 14:35:27 CDT: Last edited on 2011/06/28 14:46:34 CDT [Name] We have nothing to add to the comments already made on this name submission. *Device+ “chief” “lion” “Constantine” “Argent, a chi-rho sable and on a chief gules a lion passant argent.” Versus John the Brewer, reg, 1/97 via the East: “Argent, a blackletter initial 'B' between two birch leaves sable, on a chief gules a lion passant guardant argent”, there is a CD for removing the birch leaves. Is there another for the difference between a B and a chi-rho?
College Action:
Name: Returned for lack of documentation and other administrative issues .
Device: Returned for lack of a name and other administrative issues.
18. Thérèse la marcheannde ďlvoire (Bordermarch, Barony of) New Name and Device. Sable, on a bend sinister argent between two fleur-de-lis Or, a quill pen sable.
Consultation Table: Gulf Wars Major Changes: Yes. Minor Changes: Yes. Gender: Female. Change for: Meaning: Merchant of Ivory. Authenticity: Documentation Provided:
Comment by Gunnvor silfraharr on 2011/06/01 19:48:20 CDT: Last edited on 2011/06/01 19:48:35 CDT [DEVICE] Needs an artist's note to please draw the fleurs-de-lys larger to fill their space.
Comment by Tostig Logiosophia (Eclipse) on 2011/06/04 10:55:51 CDT: [Device] Seems 2 CD clear versus "Sable, on a bend sinister between two fleurs-de-lys argent three sinister gauntlets palewise sable." (Wulfgar jarnsiða, Device, Oct 2006) with changes to the tincture of the fleurs-de-lys and the change(s) to the tertiary charge group. Also seems well clear versus "Vert, on a bend sinister raguly between two fleurs-de-lys Or a battle axe, edge to sinister vert." (Jacques de Fairmont, Device, Oct 2004) and "Per bend vert and purpure, on a bend cotised between two fleurs-de-lys argent three thistle heads palewise proper." (Brangwayna MacKinnon, Device, Feb 2003).
Comment by Magnus on 2011/06/09 13:27:59 CDT: Last edited on 2011/06/14 12:35:55 CDT [Name] No conflict found. The Dauzat citation is undated and may be modern. Thérèse looks post period in France with that spelling. It should be available in Spain as Theresa.
Spanish Names from the Late 15th Century by Juliana de Luna Names from the Account Books of Isabel la Catolica (1477-1504, mostly 1483-1504) Full Names of Women http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/juliana/isabella/WomenFullNames.html Theresa de Benavides Theresa de Verdejo Theresa Enrriquez Annotated Internal Collated Commentary 2011-6 Letter Theresa Manrrique
ACADEMY OF SAINT GABRIEL REPORT 1960 "The name
ACADEMY OF SAINT GABRIEL REPORT 1574 Various forms of the name
The submitter and Bordure may wish to read about the issues with the name.
The Problem Names Project Concerning the Names Teresa, Theresa, Tracy, and Treasa http://www.medievalscotland.org/problem/names/teresa.shtml
Occupational By-Names in the 1292 Tax Role of Paris By Colm Dubh http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/names/parisbynames.html marcheande - merchant The submitted byname looks like a typo.
Documentation for d'Ivoire seems to be hiding. There is also a typo in the listed name.
Middle English Dictionary may help a bit. http://quod.lib.umich.edu/m/med/lookup.html s.n. ivorie (a) Ivory [Old French ivoire, ivurie, evoire.]
The occupational byname article has a merchant without any specialty. The female gender occupations in English that are compound with merchant or seller are, in French, a single word ending in -iere. In our case, l'ivoiriere is the modern French construct for 'the ivory merchant' according to my French source. I am not certain of the medieval French grammar but it usually doesn't vary. The recommendation given to me is search for the name in late period sources, possibly the African trade, or construct the name from the Old French version. Send it to OSCAR for final grammar check. I would check with the submitter about this since it drastically changes the form of the name.
[Device] No conflict found. It is two fleurs-de-lys.
Comment by Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor Herald) on 2011/06/28 14:37:20 CDT: [Name] Sources need to be summarized! Rohese says, “There is no documentation for d'Ivoire. I was unable to find la marcheannde in the source cited -- I did find marchéant: Lambequin, marchéant de chevax. I don't have Dauzat to see what he says about Thérèse. All accents should be used or none, so there should be an accent on marchéant (if that is what is meant by la marcheannde).” [Device] Although the great majority of them are registered like this, quill pens are the default, so “quill” is superfluous. No conflicts found.
College Action:
Name: Sent to Laurel
Device: Send to Laurel with an artist note to add internal detailing to the feather.
19. Þorkell ǫlfúss (Adlersrhue, Shire of ) New Name and Device. Quarterly sable and argent, a cross quarterly argent and gules, between four mullets of eight points counterchange.
Annotated Internal Collated Commentary 2011-6 Letter Major Changes: No. Minor Changes: Yes. Gender: Male. Change for: Spelling: Norse Documentation Provided: <Þorkell>”The old Norse Name” by Geirr Bassi Haraldsson p16 men’s given name. <ǫlfúss>”The old Norse Name” by Geirr Bassi Haraldsson p30 descriptive bynames. Interpreted as “ale-greedy”. <ǫlfúss>Cleasby, Richard and GuobrandrVigfusson. An Icelandic-English Dictionary 2nd ed. Ocford: Clarendon, 1957. From http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/germanic/oi_cleasbyvigfusson_about.html p.763 s.v. shows it as a nickname from Landnamabok. Checking Landnamabok, the name was borne by
Comment by Andrewe Bawldwyn (Star) on 2011/06/01 15:34:51 CDT: This is a really visually pleasing device... I like it, Blazon fu: Quarterly sable and argent, a cross quarterly argent and gules between four mullets of eight points pierced counterchanged.
The mullets are pierced and the previous blazon didn't specify that.
Comment by Tostig Logiosophia (Eclipse) on 2011/06/04 11:10:31 CDT: [Device] Concur with the proposed reblazon by Bordure -- SCA blazon tends to prefer "mullet pierced" over "spur-rowel". Unless the term is important to the submitter, what matters is the emblazon. No conflicts observed.
Comment by Gunnvor silfraharr on 2011/06/01 20:15:43 CDT: The name is cited correctly from Geirr Bassi.
Beautiful device. The only suggestion I have is to draw the mullets to fill their spaces better.
I'd blazon this as Quarterly sable and argent, a cross quarterly argent and gules between four spur-rowels of eight points counterchanged.
Comment by Þorkell ǫlfúss on 2011/06/02 00:20:38 CDT: my only question about the re-blazon, if instead of a mullet pierced i use the spur rowel ( i could not find an example of how many points a spur rowel should have excepting one in ncyclopædia of heraldry: or General armory of England, Scotland, and Ireland By John Burke, Sir John Bernard Burke which mentions a single entry of a spur-rowel of 6 prints but several more that just use spur rowel i assume the default is 5 points) would it not be a smaller piercing? being that the rowel would only need to be pierced so to be mounted to the shaft(axle, bar etc)? also i would not assume it to be a compass star because this denotes ( to me at least ) a mullet of 4 lesser and 4 greater points. i do apologize for my boldness, especially if it is out of order, but i did the legwork on this submission on my own, in an attempt to "teach" myself a little about the heraldic art
On a separate note addressed toward the first comment, i do believe i had the blazon from your comment typed out on the sheet i submitted, unsure whether it was changed before it made it to ACE or whether there was just a minor typo
Comment by Gunnvor silfraharr on 2011/06/02 01:10:42 CDT: No, the piercing would be just the same. A spur-rowel and a pierced mullet are identical in appearance. For that matter, period armory often used mullets, estoiles, and rowels interchangeably. The default spur-rowel, unless blazoned otherwise, has six points, theoretically, though I don't know if this is the SCA's default or not, so it would be "a spur-rowel of x points" or "a mullet of x points pierced".
Parker says "Rowel of a spur (fr. molette). As already pointed out under Mullet, in the ancient rolls the word rowel seems to be identical with it, and that again to be interchangeable with estoile.... The examples also shew that the terms mullet and rowel seem to be used indiscriminately in respect of the same families. There does not seem to be sufficient evidence that the difference in the terms used is at all due to the fact of the charge being pierced or not (see under Mullet pierced), though the ancient rowel probably was always so represented. See Spur-rowel." For example:
Sire Johan de CRETINGE, de argent, a un cheveron e iij rouwels de goules--Roll, temp. ED. II.
Monsire de CRETINGE [port d'argent a une cheveron de gules] a trois mullets gules percées--Roll, temp. ED. III. [Ibid. in the Roll of Carlaverock].
Comment by Magnus on 2011/06/09 12:15:52 CDT: Last edited on 2011/06/09 13:09:42 CDT [Name] No conflict found. [Device] No conflict found. Would this cross need to be blazoned throughout?
Comment by Tostig Logiosophia (Eclipse) on 2011/06/09 14:29:26 CDT: [Device] @ Magnus. Emblazoned as an ordinary, "throughout" shouldn't be needed in the blazon. It's when the cross has ends like fleury which touch the sides that the term is normally used.
College Action:
Name: Send to Laurel
Device: Send to Laurel reblazoned as " Quarterly sable and argent, a cross quarterly argent and gules, between four mullets of eight points pierced counterchanged." Annotated Internal Collated Commentary 2011-6 Letter
20. Vyolante Drago do Porto (Stepps, Barony of) Resubmitted Badge. Fieldless, a cat sejant erect counter-ermine.
Consultation Table: Gulf Wars Submission History: Vyolante Drago do Porto Name. ILoI 8/08 6. Kingdom accepted 10/08 (AG 11/08). Laurel returned 2/09 Badge (white flower). ILoI 2/11 9. Kingdom returned 3/11 (AG 4/11).
Comment by Gunnvor silfraharr on 2011/06/02 01:26:29 CDT: Last edited on 2011/06/02 01:46:11 CDT Artist's note: it would be better to use fewer, larger ermine spots. Even at full size I am seeing mostly triangles in the colored version. The attached picture sums up what I saw at first glance.
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Comment by Vyolante Drago do Porto on 2011/06/02 12:28:46 CDT: Yeah, the spots will typically be drawn more like Mongo's Cat's Spots.
This was just a case of the two badges being drawn by different artists.
They are a pain in the butt to color around - so I will be doing them as big as I can when I reproduce this in the future.
Comment by Tostig Logiosophia (Eclipse) on 2011/06/04 11:21:33 CDT: [Badge] Like Gunnvor, I have identifiability concerns (I saw mullets rather than plates). Seems 2 CD clear versus "Bendy sinister argent and azure, a lion counter-ermine, a bordure ermine." (Thomas Ian Kelson of Greyholt, Device, June 1991) for field and removal of the bordure, and "Per pale gules and azure, a lion ermine maintaining two stalks of wheat Or." (Yaakov Avraham ben Obadiah, Device, 1998)etc. for changes to tincture of the field and primary charge.
Comment by Magnus on 2011/06/09 11:18:30 CDT: Last edited on 2011/06/09 11:49:23 CDT [Badge] No conflict found. Vyolante Drago do Porto registered April 2011 (via Ansteorra). Blazon as: (Fieldless) "A cat sejant erect counter-ermine."
Submission History:
8. Vyolante Drago do Porto New Badge. (Fieldless) “A violet purpure.” College Action: Badge: Returned for conflict with "(Fieldless) A heartsease proper. [Viola tricolor]" (Elspeth of Harilow, Badge, Apr 1985). There is 1 CD for fieldlessness, but no CD for a violet versus a heartsease.
9. Vyolante Drago do Porto New Badge. (Fieldless) “A violet argent.” College Action: Badge: Returned for conflict with “(Fieldless) A rose argent.” Important non-SCA badge reserved to the House of York. There is 1 CD for fieldlessness, no CD for a rose versus a violet. Annotated Internal Collated Commentary 2011-6 Letter Comment by Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor Herald) on 2011/06/28 14:39:30 CDT: No conflicts found.
College Action:
Device: Sent to Laurel
21. Zianna al-Zahrá al-Andalusyyia (Namron, Barony of ) New Name and Badge. Fieldless, a phoenix gules.
Consultation Table: Gulf Wars Major Changes: Yes. Minor Changes: Yes. Gender: Female. Change for: Language/Culture: Andalusian. Documentation Provided:
Comment by Leonor Ruiz de Lison on 2011/06/01 15:44:02 CDT: Did I miss something that caused an influx of Basque-Arabic names? See concerns above on
Where does the accent mark over the a in
Comment by Magnus on 2011/06/02 11:42:01 CDT: Last edited on 2011/06/09 11:19:57 CDT [Name] No conflict found. The correct spelling is al-Zahra' from the source. The entered text is a typo. I have tried with little or no success to explain the hamza to Ansteorran heralds so just correct it.
The source for the Andalusian article is "The lists of Andalusian names were collected and transcribed by a group of Spanish scholars and published in Estudios Onomastico-Biograficos de al-Andalus. They range in time from around 700 AD until around 1200 AD."
Islamic Spain ruled over Basque populations in the early part of that era though we probably don't have many examples of how Basque female names would be recorded in Arabic records. The time periods are reasonably close given the amount of records from that era and the two cultures were neighbors and subject peoples through that period.
Juliana is Pelican and is eminently qualified to decide this issue.
Comment by Leonor Ruiz de Lison on 2011/06/02 11:45:28 CDT: Oh, I see it there. I will point that out if it's not fixed by the time it makes it to OSCAR.
Comment by Magnus on 2011/06/02 12:09:19 CDT: It is simply not possible for all of our heralds that deal with names to be fluent in every non-English letter so typos will happen.
Comment by Leonor Ruiz de Lison on 2011/06/02 12:15:57 CDT: Oh, absolutely. The apostrophe-as-hamza is really easy to miss in the original article, too--I read it as
Comment by Magnus on 2011/06/02 14:38:59 CDT: Last edited on 2011/06/09 11:21:25 CDT [Badge] Blazon as: (Fieldless) "A phoenix gules."
Unfortunately this is in conflict with Morgan Morfydd Gwilym October 1982 (via the Middle): "Pean, a phoenix displayed gules, issuant from flames, maintaining in its beak a dexter hand couped proper." One CD for Fieldless. Nothing for the maintained hand or flames of the phoenix. Annotated Internal Collated Commentary 2011-6 Letter
[October 2006 LoAR, R-Gleann Abhann] Dominica Maquerelle. Device. Per pale Or and argent, a phoenix gules. "This device is returned for conflict with the device for Morgan Morfydd Gwilym, Pean, a phoenix displayed gules, issuant from flames, maintaining in its beak a dexter hand couped proper. There is a CD for changes to the field. There is nothing for removing the maintained hand. Nor is there a CD for changing the tincture of half the phoenix's flames as this is only a quarter of the charge."
Comment by Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor Herald) on 2011/06/28 14:40:51 CDT: [Badge] More conflicts: Aleyd Czypsser, reg. 4/10 via Atenveldt: “Ermine, in dexter chief a phoenix gules.” Cionaodh Gunn, reg. 1/03 via AEthelmearc: “Per chevron sable and Or, in base a phoenix gules.” In both cases there is a CD for fieldless vs. field, but none for placement on the field vs. a fieldless badge. “*Quarterly argent and azure, in canton a mullet of seven points voided and interlaced azure.] Conflict with Leah bat Yehiel, (Fieldless) A mullet of eight interlocking mascles azure. There is a CD for fieldlessness. There is not a CD for placement of the mullet as Leah's badge is fieldless.” *Andronikos Tzangares ho Philosophos, 07/05, R-Northshield]
College Action:
Name: Sent to Laurel
Device: Returned for conflict.