Vol. 188 Thursday, No. 21 6 March 2008

DI´OSPO´ IREACHTAI´ PARLAIMINTE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES

SEANAD E´ IREANN

TUAIRISC OIFIGIU´ IL—Neamhcheartaithe (OFFICIAL REPORT—Unrevised)

Thursday, 6 March 2008.

Business of Seanad ………………………………1637 Order of Business …………………………………1638 Protection of Employees (Agency Workers) (No. 2) Bill 2008: First Stage ……………1654 Diseases of Animals Act: Motion……………………………1654 Social Welfare and Pensions Bill 2008: Committee and Remaining Stages …………………………1654 Motion for Earlier Signature……………………………1666 Cluster Munitions: Motion ……………………………1666 Adjournment Matters Schools Building Projects ……………………………1688 Cross-Border Business Park ……………………………1692 1637 1638

SEANAD E´ IREANN I have also received notice from Senator Maria Corrigan of the following matter: ———— The need for the Minister for Health and Children to provide details of the planned De´ardaoin, 6 Ma´rta 2008. expenditure of the additional \50 million pro- Thursday, 6 March 2008. vided for disabilities in budget 2008 and to indi- cate if a requirement for service quality and ———— guidelines for management of allegations of Chuaigh an Cathaoirleach i gceannas ar non-accidental injury and abuse will be 10.30 a.m. included in all new service agreements between the HSE and disability service providers. ———— I regard the matters raised by the Senators as suitable for discussion on the Adjournment. I Paidir. have selected the matters raised by Senators O´ Prayer. Domhnaill, Fitzgerald and Keaveney and they will be taken at the conclusion of business. ———— Senators John Paul Phelan, Ross and Corrigan may give notice on another day of the matters Business of Seanad. they wish to raise. An Cathaoirleach: I have received notice from Senator Brian O´ Domhnaill that, on the motion Order of Business. for the Adjournment of the House today, he pro- poses to raise the following matter: Senator Donie Cassidy: The Order of Business is No. 1, motion re Diseases of Animals Act, back The need for the Minister for Education and from committee, to be taken without debate at Science to provide an update on the Finn Val- the conclusion of the Order of Business; No 2, ley College building project in County Social Welfare and Pensions Bill 2008, Commit- Donegal. tee and Remaining Stages, to be taken at the con- I have also received notice from Senator Frances clusion of No. 1 and to adjourn not later than 1 Fitzgerald of the following matter: p.m. if not previously concluded and to resume at the conclusion of No. 18 if not previously con- The need for the Minister for Education and cluded; No. 3 early signature motion re Social Science to outline a timeframe for the delivery Welfare and Pensions Bill 2008 to be taken at the of the proposed second-level school for South conclusion of No. 2; and No. 18, all-party motion Lucan on lands at Kishoge Cross which she has No. 34, re cluster munitions, Senators may speak agreed to in it’s submission to South Dublin for seven minutes and may share time with agree- County Council on variations to the Clonburris ment of the House. local area plan. I have also received notice from Senator Cecilia Senator Frances Fitzgerald: Yesterday, I spoke Keaveney of the following matter: about the reviews being done into the incidents The need for the Minister for Enterprise, in Portlaoise and asked for time in the House to Trade and Employment to outline the efforts, discuss them. Having seen and read the reports if any, currently being made, to pursue the pro- and seen the commentary on them today, I am vision of a cross-Border or Border business certain this House needs to spend time as soon as park in north east Donegal area given the possible discussing them and analysing their ongoing interest in this concept in the north implications for the Minister for Health and Chil- west for many years. dren and the HSE and for how our health services are run. I have also received notice from Senator John These are extraordinary reports. John Paul Phelan of the following matter: Fitzgerald’s report, which is an investigation into The need for the Minister for Education and the crisis in Portlaoise, shows how the HSE acted. Science to outline the length of time that capi- If this is how it behaves in a crisis how does the tal funding will continue to be unavailable to system work the rest of the time? The reports Good Counsel College, New Ross, County states clear communication problems exist within Wexford, due to the on-going discussions the HSE. Too many people are doing too many regarding school amalgamations in the New jobs and do not know what are other peoples’ Ross area. jobs. There is confusion and uncertainty about roles with a lack of authority and responsibility. I have also received notice from Senator Shane The Minister and the Department of Health Ross of the following matter: and Children are ghost-like figures. Their roles The need for the Minister for Health and are completely unclear as is whether they have Children to secure core funding for the Irish any impact. The report does not find anyone Osteoporosis Society. responsible for anything which happened and 1639 Order of 6 March 2008. Business 1640

[Senator Frances Fitzgerald.] I am interested in the Portlaoise case not speaks about a systems failure. There is no such because it has been dealt with badly but because thing as a systems failure. Somebody somewhere I want to know about the rest of the system and is responsible. how it is run. Can we have a discussion on how I reiterate the point I made yesterday that we the health system is run, without referring to any must discuss this as a priority. For this House to particular hospital, as if we were a board of direc- be seen as relevant, these reports should be dis- tors getting a clear description of how it does its cussed here next week and I hope the Leader can business? arrange this. In any other country, these reports In any small operation in the public service — would be a resigning matter for somebody some- I am involved in several semi-State bodies — at where. They are not in this country and business every board meeting there is an outline of which goes on as usual. The very least we can do is dis- checks and balances were applied every quarter. cuss it here. An outside auditor is brought in to verify the I also wish to raise a point made today on system. Fail-safe measures in the system are transport. The Government was re-elected tested to check if they are sufficiently robust because it told the people it could successfully and flexible. manage the economy and various projects. The These are expected in ordinary operations but lie of this is shown today in reports on Transport it does not seem to be happening in the health 21 and the delivery of projects. Again and again, service. I am not having a go at the Government we see projects delayed. or advisers. I just want to know what they are doing. The recent higher remuneration report Senator Jerry Buttimer: Hear, hear. assessed a particular management group in the Health Service Executive and admitted it did not Senator Frances Fitzgerald: The join-up of the know what they were doing. That cannot be in Luas, due to open in 2008, does not have a com- anyone’s interests. I want a debate on this to pletion date. The Luas extension from Connolly ensure moneys are spent properly. Station to the docklands is delayed by another Many commuters living in Dublin and the sur- year. The Luas Tallaght to Citywest route has rounding counties would be delighted not to have been delayed from 2008 to 2010 at least. The to drive into Dublin city and use park-and-ride facilities instead. However, there are no such Cork to Midleton commuter rail line has been facilities on the city’s north side, the M1, M2, M3, delayed from this year to 2009. Portlaoise train M4 or M7. People are forced either to drive into depot, which was due to open last year, is still not the city or leave their cars at pubs and hotels in opened. The completion of the M3 motorway has the outlying areas. Providing park-and-ride facili- been put back from 2009 to 2010. It goes on. The ties is one small thing we could do. The commit- metro from the city centre to Dublin Airport has ment to provide more buses and regular rail been put back from 2012 to 2013 and this prob- routes needs to be re-examined. I accept Iarnro´ d ably underestimates the time. E´ ireann has significantly improved many routes Who manages the economy and infrastructure but much more can be done. development? Why are there no targets or proper In 2006 the House passed the Planning and deadlines? It exposes the lie that the Government Development (Strategic Infrastructure) Act. The can manage the country and projects well. Com- proposals made last October for re-opening of muters in Dublin pay the price every day for the Navan rail line got full clearance last week this mismanagement. owing to this legislation. We need to see more of that. Senator Joe O’Toole: I also wish to refer to the Portlaoise report. Looking at it from a disin- Senator Alex White: On a day when several terested point of view in terms of trying to take Ministers are attending a conference on practical the patient and emotion out of it, extraordinary transport initiatives to tackle climate change, it is questions must be asked on both sides of the extraordinary that not one of the flagship trans- House about the process. This is not a matter port projects referred to by Senators O’Toole and solely for the Opposition benches. I do not want Fitzgerald will be delivered on time. During the to make this into a political issue. However, I debates in the House on the economy and public want to know how the risk register was applied infrastructure, we must sit through Ministers list- to Portlaoise hospital. What was supposed to be ing off initiatives and projects, allegedly under happening there and what was not? What were way, and the price tag to go with them. the key performance indicators required for that Today’s newspapers contain lists of flagship area? I want to know if people’s bonuses was tied infrastructure projects, essential for the economy into it. Were there mid-year reviews? How could and of social benefit to communities, which the it happen that people were using out-of-date Minister for Transport acknowledges will not be equipment? Management must take responsi- delivered on time. He made the extraordinary bility for that. Someone in management was admission that he was not concerned about the aware and decided to use out-of-date equipment. slippage on the project timelines, proclaiming the We need to know why and who these people are. times given were indicative dates. 1641 Order of 6 March 2008. Business 1642

Why does the Government give indicative lations and best wishes for the future to Mr. dates if they are not to be taken seriously? Is this Medvedev. a signal to the people that when an indicative date is given for any project, it should be ignored Senator Maurice Cummins: I renew my call for as it counts for nothing? The Minister claims he, a debate on Northern Ireland as it would be like many others, spends two hours every day timely with Dr. Paisley’s announcement to step travelling in the car to Dublin, as if that would down. Cometh the hour, cometh the man. With- make us all feel okay and he would feel the pain out Dr. Paisley’s support and saying “yes”, pro- of the rest of the community. It is not good gress in the Northern Ireland process would have enough. stalled. While it was a dramatic conversion for After ten years of prosperity, which the Leader the man, all Members are glad to see devolved tells us about every second day in his response to government operating well in Northern Ireland. the Order of Business—— All members would hope Dr. Paisley’s successor will continue what he did in the past 12 months. Senator Donie Cassidy: It is actually 11 years. I am glad the Bill on the Lisbon treaty will soon be published. When will the Taoiseach set the Senator Alex White: ——and all the fantastic date for the referendum? Yesterday, Senator achievements he loves to detail to us, how can it Regan said much information available on the be that not one of these flagship projects will be treaty can be accessed at the European forum and delivered on time? The massive economic and elsewhere. However, the ordinary man on the social impact these delays will have must be faced street knows very little about this treaty. It is up to. It is a matter for the Government, as essential the Government, without delay, sends Senators O’Toole and Fitzgerald stated earlier. out a clear message on what this treaty is all The constant attempt to off-load responsibility about. to other agencies, notably in the health services, Senators received correspondence today from is extraordinary and says something about our the nephew of a gentleman who was killed system. Four months ago the House debated the recently in a collision between his car and a train health services. Members said not to blame the at a manually operated railway crossing near Minister for Health and Children for individual Straide in County Mayo. We should try to get rid problems in hospitals. While I accept the Minister of these manually operated crossings. It is essen- cannot be held individually responsible for such tial that automatic barriers be placed in these problems, she can and must be held responsible areas to negate the element of human error. I ask for the system itself. that the Minister investigate this and ask Iarnro´ d We were told four months ago there would be E´ ireann to ensure the safety of passengers and changes. There is this constant sense that some- those crossing at these points on a daily basis is thing is going to happen in the future but never of paramount importance. I ask the Minister to does. Instead, today we have a Kafkaesque report act on this as a matter of urgency. on the health services where no one is respon- sible, as Senator Fitzgerald rightly said. One has Senator Paul Coghlan: I support the call by to pinch oneself to see if there is any reality in Senator Fitzgerald to the Leader for a debate on what the Government says. There must be minis- the recently published reports on the health terial and Government accountability and collec- system, and particularly the Portlaoise report. In tive Cabinet responsibility on issues such as addition, I fully endorse the comments of my col- public transport and health. I repeat my call for league Senator Cummins about Dr. Paisley and a debate on public transport. his call for a debate on the North, which was also I wish to move an amendment to the Order of mentioned yesterday. I add my voice to these and Business, that No. 15, Protection of Employees hope that the Leader can arrange such a debate (Agency Workers)(No. 2) Bill 2008, First Stage, as early as possible. be taken today. I recently referred to the deaths of two white- tailed sea eagles in County Kerry. Unfortunately, Senator John Hanafin: Will the Leader ask the it has since been confirmed that they were poi- Minister for Foreign Affairs to congratulate Dmi- soned. Sadly, a third eagle that was thought to try Medvedev on his election to the presidency of have died of natural causes was also found to Russia? For Russians living in Ireland, polls were have been poisoned. A drug named Trodax was held in Limerick and Dublin at which Mr. Med- found in the carcasses along with a licensed poi- vedev got more than 80% of the vote. The OECD son. I accept that these poisons were put out to questioned the influence of the Russian media on catch foxes and other vermin before the lambing the election results. Whereas the Irish media season, but these birds have been absent from our would have given open, and in some cases not shores for more than 100 years and are a wonder- very knowledgeable, views as to what is hap- ful tourist attraction. People are coming from far pening in Russia, Mr. Medvedev achieved an and wide to see them. Indiscriminate poisoning is 80% vote among Russians living here, many of wrong, dangerous and contrary to law. I appeal them young. It is a country with a great future to farmers in this regard. I have total sympathy and I ask the Leader to pass on our congratu- when it comes to foxes and other vermin, but we 1643 Order of 6 March 2008. Business 1644

[Senator Paul Coghlan.] Senator Donie Cassidy: Hear, hear. have now lost three of the 15 sea eagles reintro- duced to County Kerry and we do not want to Senator Feargal Quinn: I am impressed with lose any more. They have been absent for too these figures, which we do not often hear. long. I remind the Cathaoirleach and my other I met with the US Secretary of Commerce last colleagues that they are very welcome to come to year, and he said that her responsibility was to Killarney to see these eagles. Hundreds of people create an environment in which entrepreneurs are coming to see them, and it is hoped the could create jobs. The reason I mention this is number will soon be in the thousands. I extend that the jobs being created in Ireland are coming that invitation to all Senators again. from indigenous industries and services. While we When will the Civil Law (Miscellaneous have relied to a large extent on foreign direct Provisions) Bill, which provides for a legal investment in the past, and we will continue to do services ombudsman, be taken in the House? I so in the future, let us make sure we make our ask the Leader to indicate this. economy attractive to indigenous entrepreneurs, to those who are carrying out research and inno- Senator Labhra´sO´ Murchu´ : I support the call vation, and to those who are creating those jobs by Senator Cummins for a debate on Northern and ensuring a successful economy in the future. Ireland, as was mentioned on the Order of Busi- Let us not talk ourselves into pessimism but ness yesterday. Over the years we have had some maintain a certain degree of optimism, because I very significant debates on this issue but they see a great deal about which to be optimistic in were permeated by a sense of hopelessness and the future. helplessness. I wish Dr. Paisley well in his retire- My family accuse me of being mean. They ment. Over the years I found little to agree with accuse me of being so careful with my money that in what he said but in latter times he has shown I gather up 1-cent pieces that everyone else leaves himself to be a fine leader. Even though we did behind and pay for my newspaper with them. I disagree with him, I always felt he had a moral seem to be the only person who picks up 1-cent focus. He believed what he was saying. He was pieces. transparent to the extent that one knew what was in his mind. I often feel that public debate would Senator David Norris: The Senator is not. be the richer if everybody could be so transparent. Senator Feargal Quinn: Maybe Senator Norris Many people are stunned by the progress that does as well, but there are few of us. I call myself has been made in Northern Ireland. The peace frugal or careful rather than mean. Finland process has been so successful, and in such a short decided when it joined the euro that it would not time, that people are perhaps taking it for mint one-cent coins. granted. As people are jockeying for position in the new set-up in Northern Ireland there is a Senator Joe O’Toole: Hear, hear. grave danger that new agendas will be promoted. We must be vigilant about this and keep in touch Senator Jerry Buttimer: They were right. with what is going on. We must continue the interaction we have had and cultivate the respect Senator Feargal Quinn: This seems to make a that has been developed among all traditions on great deal of sense. I say this against my wishes, this island in recent years. We cannot take any- but maybe we should consider doing the same. I thing for granted. would prefer if we would all value 1-cent pieces, A comprehensive debate is important. It would but if we are not going to succeed in that, let us be different from previous debates in that we do as the Finns did and stop minting them. would be dealing not just with the reality of the current situation but with the huge potential for Senator Jerry Buttimer: I wish to raise the issue the future. The Seanad, in particular, must play a of the breakdown in community life. We have not central role in this regard. had the Minister for Community, Rural and Gael- tacht Affairs in the House since we came back. Senator Feargal Quinn: The quarterly national Last night when I was walking back to my hotel household survey was published yesterday, and it I encountered eight people urinating on the contains good news. The number of people work- streets. I stopped and counted as I was going ing in Ireland in the final quarter of 2007 was along. 66,800 greater than in the previous year. We do not hear these figures often enough. There is (Interruptions). major success in the economy. Yes, there were drops in construction jobs, but more jobs were Senator Jerry Buttimer: It may seem funny but created in services. I suggest that not just in these it is not a joke. We are talking about civility and Houses but in the country as a whole we take a respect. I was appalled at this behaviour. It leads much more positive, forward-looking attitude to me to a point about Irish society. Today we have what is happening rather than talking ourselves major investment in the RAPID, CLA´ R and into pessimism and recession. Leader programmes, but we need to have a real 1645 Order of 6 March 2008. Business 1646 debate on community life and how we can for Jewish citizens of Israel and people, even enhance this in our country. Israeli citizens, can be taken to court and jailed I join with Senator O’Toole in requesting a for taking Palestinians on them. That is apartheid. debate on the Health Service Executive, not in Ghettos exist and if an Israeli Minister can use any specific area but in its generic remit. This the word shoah, I will use the word apartheid. morning in our newspapers we see that Professor Amnesty International, Tro´ caire and Oxfam Drumm is talking about another cutback of \300 have combined to issue a statement today about million. A \200 million cutback was imposed last the blockade by Israel. They say the conditions September. To whom is the HSE accountable? in Gaza are the worst in 40 years and that they What is it doing? Who are all these faceless constitute collective punishment. That is a war bureaucrats? Let us have a debate on the role crime under the terms of the Geneva Conven- of the HSE and, if necessary, let us call for its tions. Yesterday, I received a communication disbandment and a return to the old health from the chairman of the Royal Institute of the board system. Architects of Ireland, RIAI, housing committee who is on a visit to Israel and Palestine and is Senator Dominic Hannigan: The recent down- totally neutral. He went with some Palestinian turn in the construction sector was commented people to make a protest at the wall, as he had on earlier. Yesterday the Taoiseach said the gone to other events with Israelis. He said: downturn was one of the reasons for the drop in The protest against the wall was festive and tax receipts. Senator Quinn mentioned the quar- accompanied by music.... At the security fence terly household survey that was published a symbolic coffin was put in place and the man recently. That showed that in the last quarter who had carried it turned to leave at which more than 5,500 people have left the construction point, and without any provocation whatso- sector. Everybody knows the residential construc- ever, [this occurred inside Palestine] the Israeli tion market is cyclical. We now have a trained Army who were observing the protest opened workforce and it is time we put it to use on public fire hitting the man and subsequently hitting transport infrastructure projects. I was partic- several other people with some form of plastic ularly disappointed to learn that no major public bullet, the injured people were taken away by transport infrastructure project will be delivered ambulances. The army then advanced through on time. The Minister, Deputy Noel Dempsey, a fence in front of the wall and from conceal- might not be concerned but it appears the fast ment in fields to the west (I think) of the village train to Navan will now resemble the slow boat road, all the time firing plastic bullets, and tear to China. There must be a programme for the gas as they advanced. We were shocked and implementation of new public transport infra- terrified ..... At least two live rounds appear to structure projects. We have a trained workforce, have been fired. The army continued firing and and let us use it. advancing on us.... Senator David Norris: This week one of my That is appalling. They were then allowed to go colleagues objected to the use of language by a back to their buses but this was an unprovoked Member on the Government side of the House attack by the Israeli army, with rubber bullets and because he used the word “slaughter” regarding live ammunition, on a peaceful demonstration the situation in Israel. I maintained it was a within the state of Palestine. The reason I and matter of proportion and I still do. I know some- others raise these issues is that they involve the thing about the use of language and when 125 official army of the state against unarmed civ- people, mainly civilians and including four chil- ilians. We must use this type of language because dren, are killed by the armed forces of a legit- the people in Palestine and Gaza are defenceless. imate government as a matter of policy and in I am not attacking the people of Israel, whom order, according to one Israeli Minister, to send I love and among whom I lived for many years. a message to Hamas, it is slaughter and a mass- The restaurant we regularly went to for cel- acre. That is the appropriate language. It is ebrations, Savion, at the triangle near the pres- regrettable that my colleague and friend said that ident’s house—— this type of debate provokes unreasonable pas- sions and anti-Israeli feeling “which is ingrained An Cathaoirleach: There is nothing in the in the minds of some Members of this House”. Order of Business about restaurants. It is not ingrained in my mind. I am the only person in this House who has lived in Israel for Senator David Norris: ——was bombed. I was substantial periods over the last 30 years. I know nearly killed in a bomb attack outside a pizzeria the country very well and I have always sup- in the centre of Jerusalem. I am aware of these ported its right to exist. However, I am very con- incidents and I condemn them unreservedly. cerned when an Israeli Minister uses the word However, I will not be intimidated against saying shoah because I know what the word means to what I think about human rights. the Israelis and the Jews. People like myself are attacked when we use words such as apartheid to Senator Ivor Callely: I rise to support my good describe the fact that certain roads are reserved friend and colleague, Senator Norris. While I do 1647 Order of 6 March 2008. Business 1648

[Senator Ivor Callely.] to give a guarantee that it will have adequate not have the same command of the English langu- capacity to cope with the number of commuters age or the same knowledge about the Israeli who will use it. Basically, he is saying that he is situation as he outlined, I wholeheartedly support willing to spend up to \6 billion of taxpayers’ the view he expressed on the Israeli-Palestinian money and not learn from the mistakes that were conflict, particularly the deteriorating position in made on projects such as the M50. I cannot think Gaza. It must stop. In light of what has been said of any greater evasion of ministerial responsi- on the other side of the House, it is appropriate bility than a refusal to set clear deadlines and that this side of the House would sing in harmony objectives for the future spending of billions of in demanding that we be listened to and that our money. appropriate action is taken by all the players to The Dublin transport authority is the body that ensure the deteriorating situation in Gaza is will be put in place to manage the spending on halted. My understanding, like that of Senator and delivery of many of the projects we are dis- Norris, is that the situation is the worst that has cussing this morning. We will not and cannot been witnessed in Gaza in the past 40 years. allow the Dublin transport authority become to Hopefully, the Leader will echo our remarks to transport what the Health Service Executive is the Minister for Foreign Affairs and they will be to health. conveyed along the appropriate channels. Senators: Hear, hear. Senator Paddy Burke: I support the call by Senator Cummins for the automation of all Senator Paschal Donohoe: It cannot become a unmanned level crossings throughout the coun- body upon which the Government dumps all try. Last week the tragic death took place of Mr. responsibility and blame when it cannot deliver P. J. McGowan of Straide, County Mayo, at an its targets and is seeking to evade ministerial unmanned level crossing. I have previously called accountability. for the automation of these level crossings. The majority of them are in the west and Iarnro´ d Senators: Hear, hear. E´ ireann should bring them to automated stan- dard, particularly when it is putting new trains on Senator Paschal Donohoe: In the debate on the a line. Dublin transport authority in this House, my A number of the projects in Transport 21 will party will seek to ensure that three conditions are be behind schedule. I recently looked at a map met in creation of the new body. First, political on which the National Roads Authority has pub- accountability cannot be diluted by the setting up lished its programme for 2008. There are no of that body. Second, there must be clear lines of national primary routes or any works in the NRA accountability and responsibility in the new programme planned for Counties Mayo, Sligo, organisation. Third, we cannot be in position Leitrim, Donegal, Cavan, Monaghan, Longford whereby in a year’s time we are all sitting here and most of Roscommon in 2008. This House having a discussion about the faceless bureaucrats should have an urgent debate on the Transport of the Dublin transport authority who are spend- 21 programme which is falling far behind sched- ing billions of euro of our money to improve the ule. The counties I mentioned are in the BMW quality of life of the people whom we are here to region and, as I have said on a number of serve. I ask that during the debate on this vital occasions previously, the BMW region is not get- issue we make sure we do not repeat the mistakes ting its fair share of the funding which was pro- of the past. posed a number of years ago. This country got \8 billion under the former Taoiseach, Albert Senator Paul Bradford: I support the call by Reynolds, specifically for the poorer regions of Senator Buttimer for a debate on community the country but this is proof that they are not get- values and civic responsibility. That is a very ting their fair share. I ask the Leader to arrange urgent debate, in my view. On a weekly, if not a debate on this issue. daily, basis we are raising the issues of law and order, murders, stabbings and all sorts of terrible Senator Paschal Donohoe: I concur with my deeds. These are all part of the same equation colleagues in seeking a debate on public transport however, namely, the breakdown in civic and particularly Transport 21. Two further points responsibility, in a sense of community and in the should be raised in that regard. First, not only has values which we enjoyed in this country. A the Minister for Transport not met the targets, number of Members, including Senators O’Toole, which are now referred to as indicative timings, Norris and myself will be 21 years in the in the past, he is also refusing to set new targets Oireachtas in a few months’ time. Over that for many of the projects that have been delayed. period, there has been a huge transformation in Of the five projects that will not be delivered this society. One of the strong negatives is the decline year, the Minister is proposing to set new targets in personal and civic responsibility and in the for only two of them. Second, the metro north is sense of community and shared values, which was probably the largest of these projects and will run a strong Irish trait for many generations. through my constituency. The Minister is refusing Interestingly, this has coincided with a significant 1649 Order of 6 March 2008. Business 1650 drop in religious practice, a fall in vocations and the potential of rehabilitating young offenders a drop in the numbers of priests, nuns and bro- who are still at a formative stage in their lives. thers in the country. We have also seen a major I wish to briefly refer to an issue covered in attack on society and standards and values. All of some newspapers today, namely the sale of bogus these issues should form part of the debate, which mass cards. This is a matter which is not just of should not be exclusive to this House. I welcome concern to people of faith. Irrespective of the call for such a debate. whether people have faith, we all like to show I support Senator Cummin’s comments regard- solidarity with the bereaved at times. People may ing the need for an early notification from the not know that mass cards very often contribute Taoiseach of a date for the European referendum to priests on the missions who have very low on the Lisbon treaty. It is interesting that an enor- incomes and are doing great work. The sale of mous number of people in the country are dis- bogus mass cards in shops means that masses are cussing the forthcoming United States election. It not being said at all and the money is going into is on the front page of almost every newspaper, the hands of profiteers. This is not just a private on the television every second night and groups matter which is of interest to the Church. It is an of people in pubs and clubs are discussing an elec- issue of solidarity and I hope when the Charities tion in which we have no say, good, bad or indif- Bill comes before this House that there will be ferent. We have an election coming our way in a support across the House for a measure that few months’ time which is of much greater long- would target something that is claiming to have a term significance to this House and the Irish charitable purpose but which is a bogus arrange- people than the election in the American presi- ment. That loophole should be closed and I hope dential election, namely the referendum on the it will not just be people of faith, or of one part- Lisbon treaty. We must engage the public. An icular faith, who will support any such amendment. early announcement from the Taoiseach and a substantial debate in both Houses of the Senator Donie Cassidy: Senators Fitzgerald, Oireachtas, as well as the various committees, O’Toole, Alex White, Coghlan and Buttimer all would be helpful and necessary if we want to expressed their serious views and concerns on the engage the people in an election where they actu- new reports which were published yesterday on ally have a say as opposed to the November elec- the health service and the HSE in general. It is tion in the United States where, despite all our my intention that we will have a lengthy debate bleating, we have no say whatsoever. on the matter in the House at the earliest oppor- tunity. Now that the reports have been published, Senator Ro´ na´n Mullen: I second Senator Alex I will try to confirm a date, subject to the Mini- White’s proposal on an amendment to the Order ster’s diary commitments. of Business. The announcement that there will be Senators Fitzgerald, O’Toole, Alex White, progress on the development of a child detention Burke and Donohoe all called for a debate on centre at Lusk is very welcome. We have heard Transport 21 and the delivery of projects. News- much talk about juvenile crime and juvenile papers report today that some projects are run- offenders, particularly in the context of the tragic ning a little late. deaths of two Polish men in Drimnagh recently, which horrified us all. There is an important issue Senator Alex White: All projects. here regarding how we treat child offenders. It is desirable that we do not detain child offenders in Senator Donie Cassidy: The big difference is the same place as adult offenders. That is why the that when Fianna Fa´il is in power, they are taking new detention centre at Lusk is very welcome as place. When Senator Alex White’s party was in it will basically treat the detention of young power, nothing was taking place. offenders as a child care issue. I want to know — this should be the subject of Senator Paschal Donohoe: They are not a debate in this House — why it is still proposed happening. that there would be detention of young offenders of 16 and 17 years in the proposed Thornton Hall Senator Maurice Cummins: Nothing is taking place. complex. When we detain young offenders with older offenders we provide stepping stones in the Senator Donie Cassidy: I must put the record wrong direction. People who currently have straight. It is refreshing to hear Senator Quinn experience of St. Patrick’s Institution, which is on being positive because I thought I was living on the Mountjoy Prison site, will affirm that younger another planet with all the whinging, crying, offenders there are almost aspiring to be with the moaning and groaning that was going on. older offenders and the older cohort is aspiring to be in Mountjoy. I ask for quick and speedy Senator Paschal Donohoe: He is living on progress on the Lusk detention centre in order to another planet. make unnecessary the detention of young persons in the proposed Thornton Hall complex. I call for Senator Maurice Cummins: Planet Bertie. The an approach to child offending that believes in Leader is on planet Bertie. 1651 Order of 6 March 2008. Business 1652

Senator Donie Cassidy: It is unreal—— the amendment to the Order of Business and wel- come it with no objections. I know it is intended (Interruptions). that it will be taken during Private Members’ business next week. Positive things happen from An Cathaoirleach: The Leader, without time to time and the Leader is open to good interruption. suggestions. He will acknowledge when they are good but when they are not he will point out the Senator Donie Cassidy: ——that 66,800 new inaccuracies that occur from time to time. jobs would be created in the last quarter of the year—— A Senator: What is he talking about? Who is Senator Jerry Buttimer: How many jobs were he talking about? lost? Senator Paul Coghlan: The Leader will look Senator Donie Cassidy: ——compared to the into his own heart. last quarter of 2006 and that it would go unnoticed and unappreciated by Members of the Senator Donie Cassidy: I join Senator Hanafin House. I congratulate Senator Quinn who has led in congratulating the new President of Russia, by example. He is a captain of industry and who won the general election last Sunday. people like him gave us the Celtic tiger, part 1. Senator Michael McCarthy: What is his name? Senator Jerry Buttimer: What about the workers? Senator Donie Cassidy: I wish to respond to Senators Cummins, O´ Murchu´ and Bradford on Senator Donie Cassidy: I must point out to a debate on Northern Ireland. I know some younger Senators that all major projects are Members were at committee meetings but I reliant on the balance sheet of the economy and informed the House yesterday that the Taoiseach the Exchequer, year on year. Anyone who knows will be present for that debate, which will take anything about the construction industry knows place on the first sitting day that falls as close as that not one job in 100 years will come in on time. possible to the tenth anniversary of the Good Delays are related to weather and various other Friday Agreement. issues but the younger Members will learn as they I welcome the publication of the Twenty-eighth go along. Amendment of the Constitution Bill 2008. This will come to the House and for those Senators Senator Paschal Donohoe: The Leader is being who this morning called for a debate on the patronising now. Lisbon treaty, this Bill will provide an oppor- Senator Donie Cassidy: All of the projects are tunity to express their opinions. taking place. Some Senators, including the Leas-Chathaoir- leach, Senator Burke, expressed concerns relating (Interruptions). to safety at unmanned level crossings in light of the recent fatality that occurred. We all wish to An Cathaoirleach: The Leader on the Order of pass on our condolences to the family concerned. Business, please. A member of my family presided over level cross- ings for more than 40 years so I understand it is a Senator Donie Cassidy: They are all taking serious commitment that requires attention seven place—— days a week. I congratulate all those who have kept the level crossings of Ireland safe through Senator Paudie Coffey: The Leader is back the years and will pass the Senators’ views on to pedalling now. the Minister. Senator Coghlan highlighted for the House the Senator Jerry Buttimer: We might be young tragedy of tourist attractions in the beautiful town but we are not fools. of Killarney. Killarney is a shining example for Senator Donie Cassidy: They are all taking the rest of Ireland of the tourism product that place and I must point out to Senator Hannigan can be provided and I agree with the Senator on that the Navan rail line is taking place. I con- anything that can be done to assist with creating gratulate a fellow constituent of mine and tourist attractions for places like Killarney. I will Senator Hannigan, the Minister for Transport, enquire to see when the legal services Bill will Deputy Noel Dempsey, on making this happen in come to the House. our constituency. Senator Feargal Quinn gave a shining example of how important one cent coins are. Those of us (Interruptions). old enough will know how hard it was to get them in the first place and I think Senator Norris Senator Donie Cassidy: I inform Senators Alex agreed with this. If one does not mind one’s pen- White, Mullen and Hanafin that I am accepting nies one will not have the pounds, as they used 1653 Social Welfare and Pensions Bill 2008: 6 March 2008. Committee and Remaining Stages 1654 to say. This issue shows how we have progressed Minister. I know the Senator works closely with over the years. the Catholic Church and the bishops of Ireland Senators Buttimer and Bradford called for a and I will also pass on his serious concerns relat- debate on community life and I listened attent- ing to mass cards to the Minister. Over the past ively to Senator Bradford’s comments as he has five years I was Chairman of the Committee on huge experience and has spent almost 21 years in Enterprise and Small Business and travelled to these Houses. I congratulate him on the service many countries with Ministers of State, Ministers he has given because I know he is a young man and, on three occasions, on trade missions with with many years ahead of him. He expressed sen- the Taoiseach. The Ireland of saints and scholars timents this morning on a serious matter and this is not merely a throwaway one-liner; it took cen- House must have a lengthy debate on where turies to create that association and nobody has society is going, how we have achieved what we been a better ambassador for our country than have today and what our forefathers gave us. our missionaries. If the funding from mass cards There is a considerable drift away from the type is to be forwarded to missionaries and masses are of upbringing we had and the younger generation being said for the dearly departed, we should do must now meet a different challenge that starts at everything we can to continue the good work that home and in school. I have no difficulty in setting has gone on for decades. aside time for this matter. Senator Hannigan expressed his concern at the An Cathaoirleach: Senator White has proposed drop in income to the national Exchequer of \517 an amendment to the Order of Business: “That million for the first two months of this year. I am No. 15 be taken before No. 1”. The Leader indi- an optimistic person but if I had been asked cated that he is prepared to accept the amend- about this in October, November or December I ment. Is the amendment being pressed? would have been pessimistic. However, one can now buy a three bedroom, semi-detached house Senator Alex White: Yes. within 50 miles of Dublin for \199,500; this is incredible value and now is the time to buy. Amendment agreed to. Order of Business, as amended, agreed to. Senator Dominic Hannigan: People who buy such houses will spend two hours trying to get Protection of Employees (Agency Workers) to Dublin. (No. 2) Bill 2008: First Stage. Senator Donie Cassidy: Castlepollard is part of Senator Alex White: I move: the Senator’s constituency, just as it is part of That leave be granted to introduce a Bill mine. entitled the Protection of Employees (Agency Workers)(No. 2) Bill 2008. Senator Dominic Hannigan: Castle where? Question put and agreed to. Senator Donie Cassidy: I want to tell the Senator the good news. Using the M50 every An Cathaoirleach: When is it proposed to take morning it takes me one hour and 35 minutes to Second Stage? travel here, leaving at 8 a.m. These houses are for sale in Castlepollard, the beautiful lake district of Senator Alex White: Next Tuesday. our constituency. The senator should feel free to Second Stage ordered for Tuesday, 11 March recommend to his colleagues where value for 2008. money can be found only 50 miles from the capi- tal city of Dublin. Diseases of Animals Act: Motion. Senator Joe O’Toole: The Leader must use Mr. Senator Donie Cassidy: I move: O’Leary’s taxi to get here in that amount of time. That Seanad E´ ireann resolves that section 17A (inserted by section 2(1) of the Diseases An Cathaoirleach: Please let the Leader reply of Animals (Amendment) Act 2001 (No. 3 of to the Order of Business without interruption. 2001)) of the Diseases of Animals Act 1966 (No. 6 of 1966) shall continue in force for the Senator John Paul Phelan: He is not replying period ending on 8 March 2009. to the Order of Business. Question put and agreed to. Senator Donie Cassidy: There are more places in Ireland than Dublin and Kerry. I share the con- Social Welfare and Pensions Bill 2008: cerns of Senators Norris and Callely regarding Committee and Remaining Stages. the worst conditions in 40 years in Gaza. I hope something that can be done to stop that conflict Sections 1 and 2 agreed to. that has gone on for a very long time. An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Amendment No.1 is Senator Mullen referred to a juvenile detention out of order as it involves a potential charge on centre in Lusk and I will pass his views on to the the Revenue. 1655 Social Welfare and Pensions Bill 2008: 6 March 2008. Committee and Remaining Stages 1656

Amendment No. 1 not moved. Labour Party and Fine Gael and have expressed their concerns. I do not accept what the Minister Amendment Nos. 2 to 14, inclusive, not moved. says but I know where he is coming from.

NEW SECTION. Question, “That the new section be there inserted”, put and declared lost. Senator Nicky McFadden: I move amendment No. 15: Amendment declared lost. In page 6, before section 3, to insert the fol- lowing new section: Section 3 agreed to. “3.—The Minister shall, within three months NEW SECTIONS. of the commencement of this Act, lay before each House of the Oireachtas, a report on the Senator Nicky McFadden: I move amendment prospect of removing the Habitual Residence No. 16: Condition from the Child Benefit payment.”. In page 6, before section 4, to insert the fol- I welcome the Minister for Social and Family lowing new section: Affairs, Deputy Cullen, back to the House and “4.—The Minister shall, within three months thank him for taking the time to discuss this of the commencement of this Act, lay before matter, which I appreciate very much. I under- each House of the Oireachtas, a report on how stand that the existing habitual residence con- the Rent Supplement Scheme could be dition means that children who are living in direct improved to— provision are not entitled to child benefit pay- ment. While they are in receipt of \9.40, that (a) make it more responsive to benefici- amount is inadequate. I heard what the Minister aries needs, had to say yesterday but I ask that he look at the (b) reflect rental market changes.”. matter on compassionate grounds. It would not cost a huge sum of money, \6 million per annum, Given that we had a detailed debate on this issue to look after this small number of children. It yesterday, I will not go into detail except to say would mean that children could buy over-the- that changes should be introduced whereby rent counter medicines and clothes, which are not cat- supplement would be paid in advance rather than ered for when living in asylum. in arrears. It is wrong that tenants must wait up to six weeks for payment. If they do not get the Minister for Social and Family Affairs (Deputy rent supplement they sometimes end up owing six Martin Cullen): I understand the Senator’s senti- weeks’ rent. This is an issue we need to review. ment in this regard. We have had extensive In the Dublin area the rental supplement is debate on this issue in the Da´il, at the committee \130 while the cheapest bed-sit costs \150. I ask and in the Seanad. My opinion is well known. We the Minister to review this matter. We debated meet all our United Nations requirements under the rental accommodation scheme, RAS, yester- the law in regard to looking after those in the day, the update of which I understand is very low. asylum seekers system. As the Senator rightly Only 1,000 out of 33,000 eligible recipients have said we do not pay over cash but we look after been transferred from rent supplement to RAS these people by putting packages together and since 2005. I note it has been administered by the feeding and looking after them. The habitual resi- community welfare offices and services of the dence clause is an important one and has worked Health Service Executive on behalf of the very well since its introduction in Ireland. It is Department of Social and Family Affairs. The right that someone should be habitually resident community welfare offices have expressed con- here before he or she can access payments such cerns regarding the transfer of this scheme to the as child benefit. To remove the habitual residence Department of Social and Family Affairs and are clause would be to say to anyone anywhere that questioning how the move will affect its clients. one can come to this country and avail of our Perhaps the Minister would comment on that social welfare system. If people in the asylum issue. seeker system are in need of special supports, they get them through various aspects of the Deputy Martin Cullen: The rent supplement social welfare system. We have had no complaints scheme is an individual payment to a person who and we have had no difficulties. It is the right needs support within the system. The payment is approach, it is fair and it is working. Therefore, I not a payment to a landlord. On some occasions, am not minded to accept the amendment. I thank we pay direct to the landlord on behalf of the the Senator for tabling it. client. This may be for money management reasons for people who are not capable, for what- Senator Nicky McFadden: FLAC came ever reason, of managing the resources them- attended the Joint Committee on Social and selves, and happens in a small number of cases. Family Affairs and expressed its views. Many However, it is a payment to an individual to sup- people have come to me and my colleagues in the port that individual. 1657 Social Welfare and Pensions Bill 2008: 6 March 2008. Committee and Remaining Stages 1658

The Deputy is correct with regard to the rent increased significantly in the past year. The figure supplement scheme, which is why we moved to in 2001 was approximately 11,000 but the number the rental accommodation scheme, RAS, some availing of the scheme has increased to approxi- time ago. The rent supplement scheme was sup- mately 23,000. We have tried to get the infor- posed to be a short-term benefit to individuals mation out to all who are potentially recipients to assist them on a short-term basis. Clearly, this and beneficiaries of the scheme. expanded into too long-term a timeframe. Work- The family income supplement scheme is ing with the local authorities, the aim is to get important and is one in which I intend to con- people off the long-term payments of rent sup- tinue, where I can, to invest resources to benefit plement and onto the RAS. That process is taking those who are trying to get back into society and time and it will probably take another year or two make a contribution. That will be the approach. to get the numbers down and to return to a situation where the rent supplement is being used Senator Phil Prendergast: I wish to apologise on a short-term basis. That is the purpose of the to the Minister and the House because I was at a scheme. meeting of the Joint Committee on Health and We have had a review of the caps on the rent Children and I inadvertently did not get here in supplement scheme. The scheme itself is under time. I also apologise to Senator McFadden for review and it should be completed in mid-year, walking in front of her just now, which was which seems to be acceptable to everybody. We unintended. will decide what is to be done at that stage.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Senator Nicky McFadden: I did not notice.

Senator Nicky McFadden: I move amendment Senator Phil Prendergast: I will resubmit my No. 17: amendments on Report Stage and I will deal with them then, if that is okay. In page 6, before section 4, to insert the fol- lowing new section: Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. “4.—The Minister shall, within three months of the commencement of this Act, lay before Senator Nicky McFadden: I move amendment each House of the Oireachtas, a report on the No. 18: number of eligible persons and proportion In page 6, before section 4, to insert the fol- thereof availing of the Family Income lowing new section: Supplement.”. I am aware that this scheme is not availed of as “4.—The Minister shall, within three months much as it could be. Despite the fact the Govern- of the commencement of this Act, lay before ment wants more lone parents to return to work, each House of the Oireachtas, a report on the the budget has not been clearly welfare-to-work- number of eligible persons and proportion proofed. Part-time workers stand to lose \2.40 thereof availing of the Back-to-School Clothing from the family income supplement payment. and Footwear Allowance, among low income Such workers can claim a reduced level of one- families.”. parent family payment as their income is so low As I said on Second Stage, I appreciate the and they will benefit from the increase in this amount of money that has gone into this sector payment. However, because the increase in the but I would ask that the Minister would report family income threshold was lower than the on the numbers of eligible persons availing of the increase in the basic social welfare payment, this back-to-school clothing and footwear allowance is reflected in the family income supplement among low income families. I note particularly means test and the effect is that the family that lone parents who are working part-time are income supplement will be lower for this group not entitled to claim the allowance. Therefore, in 2008 because of the budget. I would like the working parents will not benefit from the minimal Minister to comment. \20 increase in this payment. As I said to the Deputy Martin Cullen: The family income sup- Minister on Second Stage, I do not see how this plement, as all sides agree, is an important contri- offers any incentive to encourage lone parents to bution to getting people back to work and out of go back to work. Will the Minister address this the poverty trap by assisting families who have point? difficulties without keeping them entirely in the social welfare system. If they go back to full-time Deputy Martin Cullen: This scheme is very sig- work, they can avail of the family income sup- nificant and benefits approximately 180,000 chil- plement, which is very important. What we will dren, which is the type of coverage one would try to do in the years ahead is to shift the balance expect, with approximately 88,000—— in favour of people going back to work. The Deputy is correct that the take-up in the Senator Nicky McFadden: But not for lone early part of the scheme was quite low but it has parents. 1659 Social Welfare and Pensions Bill 2008: 6 March 2008. Committee and Remaining Stages 1660

Deputy Martin Cullen: There are approxi- Deputy Martin Cullen: This issue seems com- mately 88,000. As the Senator knows, many plex but is quite simple. It affects a small number different schemes which break down in many of people — no more than 100. The effect is that different ways are available to those who need people working in Ireland who have been paying them, who may qualify under different criteria. into the social insurance fund can transfer the This year, the back-to-school clothing and foot- value of their payments into the European PSEC wear allowance has a budget of over \43.5 mil- fund if they take up a job with one of the Euro- lion, which is significant. It is beneficial to those pean institutions, and that those coming back who avail of it. We have gone from the position from having worked in a European institution to in budget 2007, where we gave \180 per child for work here can transfer the value of the fund back those aged two to 11 years and \285 for children again. There is freedom of movement between aged 12 to 22 years, to the position in this year’s the two schemes so people are not disadvantaged budget, where we have increased the payments in any way. It is a technical amendment which by \20 to \200 and \305 respectively. This rep- affects probably less than 100 people. Neverthe- resents an increase of 67% and 61% respectively less, it is important to them that their pension in the past two years, so there has been a signifi- rights are protected. cant increase in this area. I am glad 180,000 chil- Senator Nicky McFadden: I presume there will dren benefit from this. It is achieving its target be retrospective effects. The Minister said market. approximately 100 people would expect to benefit. Will the cost be paid by the social Senator Nicky McFadden: I appreciate the insurance fund? This provision is overdue since amount of money that has gone into the scheme. our accession. Why is it being fixed now and what While I will not press the amendment, I ask the was the trigger for this? Those who are waiting Minister to specifically consider the category of may have been waiting for 35 years. What is the lone parents to ascertain whether they, in part- estimated cost of this proposal? icular those working part-time, can be accommodated. Deputy Martin Cullen: These people have been paying into the fund so it is a movement of their Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. own resources, not an added burden. It is about protecting an individual’s pension. In the past this An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Amendments Nos. 19 had been deemed valid for occupational pensions and 20 are out or order as they are deemed to be but it is now felt that it should be part of the outside the scope of the Bill. social insurance fund as well, which is where we are moving it and putting it into play. This is Amendments Nos. 19 and 20 not moved. about the individual, not the State. It relates to the rights of an individual to have access to his or Section 4 agreed to. her pension so that a person is not disadvantaged if he or she goes from working and paying into NEW SECTION. the insurance fund in the Irish system to a Euro- pean institution or if he or she moves back again. Senator Nicky McFadden: I move amendment It had previously been thought that Article 11 No. 21: of annexe VIII of the staff regulations applied only to occupational and personal pension rights. In page 6, before section 5, to insert the fol- However, following successful legal proceedings lowing new section: brought by the Commission against a number of “5.—The Minister shall, within three months member states, including most recently Spain, of the commencement of this Act, lay before resulting in a judgment of the European Court of each House of the Oireachtas, an information Justice in July 1997, it is accepted now that the provisions of Article 11 also apply to State report detailing— pensions. (a) number of persons expected to benefit per annum, Senator Nicky McFadden: Will the European Commission pay the relevant amount into the (b) the estimates of amounts that will be social insurance fund? transferred out of and to be received by the Social Insurance Fund (SIF) over the next 5 Deputy Martin Cullen: It will just transfer the and 10 years, portion back or vice versa.

(c) if the legislation will apply retrospec- Senator Nicky McFadden: That is good if that tively, if so how many persons will benefit, is the case. what are the expected amounts in terms of benefits that will be paid by the SIF, amounts Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. that will be transferred from SIF, and the amounts the SIF will receive.”. Section 5 agreed to. 1661 Social Welfare and Pensions Bill 2008: 6 March 2008. Committee and Remaining Stages 1662

NEW SECTION. Senator Nicky McFadden: That is very good. I welcome the measure. Senator Nicky McFadden: I move amendment No. 22: Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

In page 7, before section 6, to insert the fol- Sections 6 and 7 agreed to. lowing new section: “6.—The Minister shall, within three months NEW SECTION. of the commencement of this Act, lay before each House of the Oireachtas, a report on sup- Senator Nicky McFadden: I move amendment ports available to individuals in receipt of Ill- No. 23: ness Benefit.”. In page 7, before section 8, to insert the fol- Section 6 provides that a person transferring back lowing new section: to illness benefit will be entitled to a full personal “8.—The Minister for Social and Family rate of illness benefit where he or she has the Affairs shall, within three months of the com- required number of contributions in the relevant mencement of this Act, lay before the Houses tax year. Is the purpose of the section to protect of the Oireachtas a report on the progress to persons who have become disqualified from date in replacing the One Parent Family Pay- receiving invalidity benefit or is it to ensure per- ment with the new parental allowance for all sons who are so disqualified can easily begin low income families.”. claiming illness benefits? I welcome the sentiment behind the scheme. Is this the scheme for which \6.5 million has been Deputy Martin Cullen: Illness benefit is an allocated for a dedicated liaison officer and to put income support payment for people of working facilitators in place to deal with each lone parent age who are unable to work owing to illness and individually to get him or her back to work? who satisfy certain social insurance conditions. Those who are in receipt of the personal rate of Deputy Martin Cullen: Yes. We have two pilot illness benefit may also be entitled to increases schemes running at the moment in Kilkenny and for dependent adults and qualified children. In Coolock. addition, they may qualify for some secondary benefits such as smokeless fuel allowances, assist- Senator Nicky McFadden: I welcome the ance under the supplementary welfare allowance measure but given that there are so many lone and the medical card. parents, how is it proposed that 30 facilitators will In recent years my Department has begun to be able to deal with so many lone parents case by change its focus from being concerned primarily case? I welcome the Minister’s approach and with the passive payment of benefits to a situation what he is trying to achieve but does he believe where we also focus on ensuring social welfare \6.5 million is sufficient to deal with the existing recipients of working age are given opportunities need? and supports to participate in the labour market. It is a way of ensuring people are not disadvan- Deputy Martin Cullen: There are significant taged and are supported back into the labour human resources throughout the system and the market. country in the offices that deal with these people For this reason, a number of supports are avail- daily. Senator McFadden is correct. I welcome able for those on illness benefit and the other dis- her support. Cross-party support is evident for ability related payments, such as disability allow- this scheme which we are trying to finalise. ance and invalidity pension, to encourage As Senator McFadden is aware, there are different views among stakeholders as to how we participation in education, training and employ- achieve our aim. We are trying to use the experi- ment. These include the back to work allowance, ence of the pilot projects in Kilkenny and Cool- which provides a financial cushion for those ock to see how best to proceed. It is not just a returning to work, and the back to education question of straight financial support because allowance, which provides second chance edu- other issues arise. I refer to education in part- cation for people. It is geared towards ensuring icular. Many lone parents left school early and do that people who want to go back to education or not have the educational requirements necessary work are not disadvantaged and that they can to get back into the workforce. Child care is move from one scheme to another. another issue that arises. Some lone parents are more interested in training than education. There Senator Nicky McFadden: How much will the is a mixture of needs. improvement cost per annum and how many The aim is to get as many lone parents as pos- cases are expected to benefit per year? sible into the system in the next year or two to try to get them back into the workforce. Many of Deputy Martin Cullen: I am told it is a very them are coming in voluntarily. There was a minimal cost. It is 63 cases. general impression that the receipt of a letter in 1663 Social Welfare and Pensions Bill 2008: 6 March 2008. Committee and Remaining Stages 1664

[Deputy Martin Cullen.] Another area of concern is that access should the post meant people would lose something. The be provided to up-to-date and accurate infor- experience of people in Kilkenny and Coolock mation about carer’s rights. I wish to ensure these has been very positive. We are not trying to take issues will be considered in the strategy. I wel- anything away from people. We want to enhance come what the Minister said yesterday regarding the quality of people’s lives by allowing them and young carers, namely, that he is working in con- helping them to do part-time work and, ulti- junction with the Minister of State with responsi- mately, full-time work. Accordingly, we are trying bility for children and that he is due to issue a to target the supports that are needed to achieve report on how best to support children. I thank that. the Minister.

Senator Nicky McFadden: I have grave con- Deputy Martin Cullen: I appreciate what the cerns about the logistics of the operation of the Senator said. All colleagues have welcomed the scheme from the point of view of there being so fact that the carer’s strategy is under way. We many lone parents. The Minister referred to deal- want to get it completed. It is also very much ing with people case by case. I am concerned that focused on the Towards 2016 agreement and the people may not be looked after in a proper social partnership process. The Taoiseach’s manner. Department is chairing it and it is already sitting and examining the issues. The issues the Senator Deputy Martin Cullen: Currently, 40 facilita- mentioned, and many more, are considered in the tors are in place and another 30 will be added this totality of the carers’ strategy. My colleague, the year to make a total of 70. This is a gradual pro- Minister of State at the Department of Health cess. I will not pretend to the Senator that we can and Children with special responsibility for chil- do it all overnight. It is clear there are many dren, Deputy Brendan Smith, is examining the people who will not be able to do some of the issue as it relates to children caring for elderly things at a particular point in time. It is necessary people and we will facilitate him in that process. to look at the cohort and see how one can facili- We are working on the overall national carers’ tate the movement of those who are in a position strategy and we all look forward to seeing that in to go into the workplace. That is what we will do. the middle of the year. It is a learning-by-doing experience. That is what Senator Nicky McFadden: Yes, very much. Kilkenny and Coolock are showing us. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Amendment No. 25 not moved. Section 8 agreed to. Section 9 agreed to. An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Amendments Nos. 24 and 25 are related and can be discussed together Sections 10 to 14, inclusive, agreed to. by agreement. Is that agreed? Agreed. NEW SECTION. NEW SECTION. An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Amendment No. 26 Senator Nicky McFadden: I move amendment in the name of Senator McFadden is out of order No. 24: as it is deemed to be outside the scope of the Bill. In page 8, before section 9, to insert the fol- Amendment No. 26 not moved. lowing new section: “9.—The Minister shall, within one month of SECTION 15. the commencement of this Act, lay before each House of the Oireachtas, a report on the pro- Question proposed: “That section 15 stand part gress of the National Carers Strategy.”. of the Bill.” We spoke yesterday about the fact that we will Senator Nicky McFadden: My proposed have the strategy report by mid-summer. I wish amendment No. 26 states: “The Minister shall, to ensure it will contain a comprehensive list of within three months of the commencement of this the services and supports that are 12 o’clock Act, lay before each House of the Oireachtas, a provided for carers to support them report on the possibility of the introduction of a and their well-being, and an cost of disability payment for people with dis- adequate and fair system for the remuneration of abilities.” That is self-explanatory. I ask that the carers in addition to education and training which Minister to please lay such a report before the are very important for carers. We must focus on House. quality of life issues for carers. We must ensure we introduce policies that will support carers to Deputy Martin Cullen: I cannot put the laying achieve a work-life balance. of a report before the House into legislation, 1665 Cluster Munitions: 6 March 2008. Motion 1666 however I accept the sentiment. As the Senator recently introduced. We usually have Committee knows, the domiciliary care allowance and other Stage followed by Report Stage at another time. changes have been made between my Depart- ment and the Department of Health and Chil- An Leas-Chathaoirleach: The Labour Party dren, where we are taking them on board. Yester- amendments tabled for Committee Stage cannot day I told the Senator we will take on the be resubmitted on Report Stage because they customers on an “as is” basis and see how we were not discussed on Committee Stage. The develop it as we go forward so nobody is dis- Order of Business for today agreed to our taking advantaged in the move. That seems to be Committee and Remaining Stages; my hands are satisfactory. tied.

Question put and agreed to. Bill received for final consideration.

Sections 16 to 31, inclusive, agreed to. Question proposed: “That the Bill do now pass.” Schedules 1 and 2 agreed to. Senator Nicky McFadden: I thank the Leas- Title agreed to. Chathaoirleach and the officials from the Depart- ment for their support and explanations. I also Bill reported without amendment. thank the Minister and my colleagues on the An Leas-Chathaoirleach: When is it proposed other side of the House for their time. to take Report Stage? Minister for Social and Family Affairs (Deputy Senator Martin Brady: Now. Martin Cullen): I thank the Senators on all sides of the House for their contributions to the Social An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Is that agreed? Welfare Bill. We have had a very worthwhile dis- Agreed. cussion on the two Bills, one before Christmas and this second Bill. I sincerely hope some of the Senator Maurice Cummins: Are we taking changes we have spoken on, particularly on lone Report Stage now? parents, will form some of the basis of the legis- lative changes we will be able to make next year An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Yes. and that we will complete a number of the reports expected from the Bill. I thank the Leas- Senator Maurice Cummins: In reference to Chathaoirleach, my officials and all colleagues on what our colleague on the Labour benches stated, all sides of the House for their very worthwhile that she wishes to resubmit her amendments on contributions. Report Stage, I wonder if we should take Report Stage at another time. Committee Stage was Senator Martin Brady: I thank the Minister and scheduled for today, not Report Stage. Taking his officials for their attendance and co-operation. into consideration what our colleague on the Labour benches stated—— Question put and agreed to. An Leas-Chathaoirleach: My hands are tied on Social Welfare and Pensions Bill 2008: Motion the Order of Business. The Order of Business for Earlier Signature. agreed that we would take Committee and Remaining Stages. Senator Martin Brady: I move: That pursuant to subsection 2° of section 2 of Senator Maurice Cummins: On the Order of Article 25 of the Constitution, Seanad E´ ireann Business we were told it would be Committee Stage and not Remaining Stages. concurs with the Government in a request to the President to sign the Social Welfare and An Leas-Chathaoirleach: It was agreed on the Pensions Bill 2008 on a date which is earlier Order of Business to take Committee and than the fifth day after the date on which the Remaining Stages. Bill shall have been presented to her.

Senator Maurice Cummins: It is becoming a Question put and agreed to. regular occurrence that we take Committee and Remaining Stages. I do not consider it in order to Sitting suspended at 12.10 p.m. and resumed at take Remaining Stages when Bills such as this are 1 p.m. presented to the House. I am making this point in specific reference to the Labour Party’s proposed Cluster Munitions: Motion. amendments, however it regularly arises that the Senator David Norris: I move: Order Paper provides for us to take Committee and Remaining Stages. This practice has been “That Seanad E´ ireann welcomes: 1667 Cluster Munitions: 6 March 2008. Motion 1668

[Senator David Norris.] I was in traffic when I found out about it half an (1) the role being played by the Government hour ago. I was told that all the Whips agreed, in international efforts to secure a total prohib- but that is not the case. My Whip did not agree, ition on the production, stockpiling, transfer nor did the Fine Gael Whip. It was just bounced and use of cluster munitions through its active on us. A serious motion that deals with people’s participation in international initiatives to lives should not be treated in this fashion. It is a address the issue comprehensively, in line with disgrace that this happened and I strongly resent its commitments in the programme for it. I was meeting somebody for lunch and a brief- Government; ing, but that has now been aborted. However, I (2) the convening by the Government of a am prepared to go ahead with this, because it is diplomatic conference in Dublin in May 2008 such a positive development. to negotiate a new instrument of international The motion that I have just moved is not the humanitarian law on cluster munitions that exact motion that went on the Order Paper orig- cause unacceptable harm to civilians; inally. That motion has been amended in the usual way to welcome the role of the Government (3) the intention of the Government shortly and so on. It has got a little bit of a massage and to establish a national committee on inter- I do not mind that, but I would like to point out national humanitarian law which will have, as that the original motion, in my name and in the its first task, the preparation of comprehensive name of Deputy Higgins, was passed unani- draft legislation to give effect to the new instru- mously in the Joint Committee on Foreign ment, thereby enabling its early introduction in Affairs. It read as follows: the Oireachtas; “That the Oireachtas Joint Committee on and urges the Government — Foreign Affairs urges the Government: (4) to support research, publication and (1) to play an effective role towards securing awareness raising initiatives on this subject a total prohibition on the production, stockpi- nationally and internationally; ling, transfer and use of cluster munitions by its (5) to ensure that the draft legislation pro- active participation in international initiatives vides not just for the prohibition of use, pro- to address the issue comprehensively; duction, stockpiling and transfer of cluster (2) to enact a national law prohibiting the munitions but also to make provision for assist- ance to victims of cluster munitions, for the production, stockpiling, transfer and use of clearance of areas contaminated by unexploded cluster munitions as we know them; cluster munitions and for assistance in the (3) to support research, publication and destruction of stockpiles of cluster munitions, awareness raising initiatives on this subject among other matters to be agreed in nego- nationally and internationally; tiations on the future instrument at the diplo- matic conference in Dublin in May; (4) to follow the example that prevailed in June 1996 when Ireland, in anticipation of the (6) to increase support for the clearance of text of the mine ban convention, enacted uni- land contaminated by land mines, cluster laterally a ban on land mines and in this regard munitions and other unexploded ordnance; that Ireland would now take a similar initiative (7) to increase support for education on the in anticipation of the discussion of the text of a risks of land mines, cluster munitions and other UN level prohibition; unexploded ordnance; (5) that such legislation on the part of (8) to increase support for rehabilitation of Ireland be as inclusive as possible in terms of survivors and their socioeconomic integration; definition of cluster munitions, the addressing and of existing stockpiles and all aspects of pro- duction, sale, transmission and use; (9) to ensure that no public funds are invested in any company involved in or associ- (6) to increase support for the clearance of ated with the production of cluster munitions.” contaminated land by land mines, cluster munitions and other unexploded ordinance; I welcome the Minister to the House. We all appreciate his efforts in this area, and we know (7) to increase support for mine-risk the sincerity with which he makes them. It is education; particularly heartening that this is an all-party (8) to increase support for rehabilitation of motion, which puts a positive framework on the mine survivors and their socioeconomic inte- whole issue. I welcome the extra comments made, gration pending the outlawing of land mines to which I will refer later. internationally; and I wish to make a very strong protest about the way in which this business has been ordered. I am (9) to ensure that no public funds are the originator of this motion, but I was not told invested in any company involved in or associ- about it at the time it was being changed; in fact ated with these inhuman practices. 1669 Cluster Munitions: 6 March 2008. Motion 1670

It is very important that we take this matter me to the hospital. She begged him to throw seriously and the Minister has shown evidence of her out of the window, as she was in such doing so. There has been correspondence in the unbearable agony. newspapers and I know that the Minister has These bombs are not militarily precise. In the recently returned from a conference in New past 72 hours of the war in Lebanon, 1 million of Zealand. It is important that all this is incremen- the bombs were dropped by the Israelis and they tal, and there will be a conference in Croke Park are often picked up in a particular form by chil- in May. The Minister answered critics by saying dren, long after the military conflict has ended. that the Government wants to await the outcome Therefore, these bombs cause civilian casualties, of this conference, in order to put together the with children the most vulnerable. In light of the most comprehensive ban, which is fine. However, fact that there have been changes, can the Mini- Ms Margaretta D’Arcy raised the fact that the ster guarantee as positive as possible an interpre- National Pensions Reserve Fund has invested tation of the articles in my original motion, such \500 million in five companies that produce clus- as article 5? It states that such legislation on the ter bombs. These are Raytheon, General Dynam- part of Ireland should be as inclusive as possible ics and 1-3 Communications from the USA, in terms of the definition of cluster munitions. No EADS from the Netherlands and Thales from cluster munitions should be excluded on the basis France. In today’s newspaper the Minister said of self-destruction. This is not realistic self- that the question of investment had been raised, destruction. These self-destructive mechanisms and that he has contacted the Minister for Fin- often fail. Many of the weapons systems are com- ance and the National Pensions Reserve Fund plicated and sometimes one of 30 things can with a view to ensuring that no public funds are wrong, and the self-destructive features do not invested in any company involved in, or associ- work. For sensor-fused weapons, each cluster ated with the production of munitions. That is bomb is programmed with individual guidance vitally important. I have often raised the issue of systems to locate the target. The argument is that investment in some of these rather sinister com- each bomb will represent a precision strike, but panies and the need for an ethical investment that is rubbish. They seek metal mass or heat provision governing the NPRF. sources. They can hit a market or a factory and These cluster bombs are an appalling weapon they can clearly destroy civilians. and they have been used all over the world. It is The Minister may well have heard the speech disgraceful that a group of countries, led by the of Mr. Branislav Kapetanovic at the conference US, Russia and China, have tried to mitigate the in New Zealand. He was a victim of a cluster impact of the treaties and have not signed up to bomb and he said in his speech: them. They have done this because they are manufacturing the bombs. We need to know how Let me remind you of why we are here these bombs affect people, and an example pro- today. We are here because more than 90% of vides a human face to the issue. This is the testi- casualties caused by cluster munitions are civ- mony of a Serbian woman called Gita Jovic, ilians. Thirty countries and territories of the recalling when a bomb hit the street on which she world have a problem with contamination by was standing. She stated: unexploded sub-munitions. In the course of just one year after the war in Lebanon ended, 45 of At first, there was this noise, something I my fellow deminers, 45 people who were have never heard before. And then it hit me in trained to work with cluster munitions, have the leg. And then the other leg, too. I felt sev- become victims of cluster munitions while ere pain in my right leg, but I did not look at clearing unexploded sub-munitions. All this it. I did not know what to do. There were det- tells us that cluster munitions do not discrimi- onations everywhere, cars were getting hit. I nate among their victims and there are no clus- managed to cross to the other side of the street ter bombs that can guarantee anybody’s safety. and to lie down behind a car. A car nearby was burning. I was in a state of shock, but I was If professionals are being injured, what chance do also aware of everything that was happening. ordinary civilians have to get away from these fil- My colleagues started coming out of the build- thy things? The letter concludes with the com- ing, they were running around, looking for the ment that before 1999 none of Mr. Kapetanovic’s injured. I was yelling, calling them, but they compatriots considered it possible that cluster could not see me. I tried to stand up. I was bombs would be used in their country which is, wearing trousers; I tried to pull them up a bit. after all, a European state, rather than some It was then that I saw what had happened for remote African colony of which we know little. the first time. I remember thinking clearly — Cluster munitions, therefore, affect us all. so strange, a bare bone, no muscle tissue at all. We should recall the role Ireland played in the It was my right leg. My other leg did not react past, of which I am proud. It was the skill of at all and there were many small bomb frag- Frank Aiken that produced the nuclear non-pro- ments in it. I was picked up eventually by a liferation treaty and Ireland was among the first volunteer who collected the dead and the three or four countries to sign up to the Oslo dec- injured in the streets during attacks. He took laration. What a pity we were not the first country 1671 Cluster Munitions: 6 March 2008. Motion 1672

[Senator David Norris.] tice by other states. I value the commitment of to do so, particularly as we do not possess cluster the Seanad and all parties to combating the munitions or the means to distribute them. This scourge of these weapons. I welcome support for places us in a good position from which we could the role the Government has played in inter- have led. I wish we had led the world but we can national efforts to secure a total prohibition on use our moral force now. It is particularly the production, stockpiling, transfer and use of important that the Minister lives up to his under- cluster munitions, in particular, through our lead takings and ensures we do not invest in any com- role in the upcoming diplomatic conference in panies that produce these devilish weapons which Dublin, which is expected to complete nego- attack human life. tiations on the first ever instrument of inter- I pay tribute to Austria, which was among the national humanitarian law specifically directed first countries, if not the first country to ban clus- against cluster munitions. ter munitions. On 5 December 2007, just a few Several times during moves by a number of months ago, at the Vienna conference on cluster nations to address this issue, I offered to host the munitions, Ms Ursula Plassnik, Austrian Minister conference on cluster munitions in Dublin, even for European and International Affairs stated: though, from a logistical point of view, it was clear that it would be difficult to host an event I am proud to inform you that the Austrian lasting for approximately two weeks and attended Parliament will adopt tomorrow a national law by delegates from every part of the world. While that bans the possession, use, production, the conference will bring substantial business to development and transfer of cluster munitions. the city, it is also a significant operation and ques- Once this law is in force, all types of cluster tions were asked as to whether the Department munitions will be illegal, including so called had sufficient logistical means to organise it. I am “intelligent” sensor-fused munitions. We hope pleased we are hosting the event and hope it will that this law will become a trend setter and we be very successful. stand ready to assist other states in their own legislative efforts. I appreciate the support for the Government’s plan to establish a national committee on inter- This is the way forward. I congratulate the Mini- national humanitarian law which will have, as its ster and I know his heart is in this issue. He first task, the preparation of comprehensive draft should drive ahead and I wish him well in Croke legislation on the cluster munitions issue. I have Park. It is a most important, humane issue, on read commentary in the newspapers arguing that which we must continue to apply pressure. the Government should proceed with the legis- We should shame countries such as Russia, lation. However, I have received strong advice China and the United States of America. I ask that we should wait until the conference produces the Minister to send a letter to the ambassadors what I hope will be a positive resolution before of these countries expressing our deep concern framing legislation. I understand some important that countries which pose as civilised should wish non-governmental organisations have indicated to continue to manufacture these horrible wea- we should wait until after the conference in May pons. To return to my protest, I am very angry before introducing legislation. I do not want to about the way in which this debate was handled. proceed with legislation before May in case we find that, as a result of the May conference, we An Cathaoirleach: I call Senator Dan Boyle. will have to return to the drawing board and change the legislation. I want to get it right at the Senator Dan Boyle: I second the motion. I first attempt. Waiting for a few months until the understand the Minister would like to speak at issue is considered fully at the Croke Park con- this point. I will speak later. ference is the correct way to proceed. The Programme for Government 2007-2012 Minister for Foreign Affairs (Deputy Dermot makes a commitment to “campaign for a com- Ahern): I thank Senator Boyle for allowing me to plete ban on the use of cluster munitions.” It adds speak at this point. I also thank Senator Norris that in “the absence of a full ban we will seek for his comments. agreement on an immediate freeze on the use of cluster munitions pending the establishment of Senator David Norris: On a point of order, I effective international instruments to address exonerate the Minister from any culpability in humanitarian concerns regarding their use.” My this matter. I was in touch with his office and party’s pre-election manifesto included a similar understand it was prepared to be flexible with commitment. I am pleased to inform the Seanad regard to timing. I should have made that clear that Ireland has played an important role in inter- to be fair to the Minister. national efforts to this end through its partici- pation in the UN Convention on Certain Conven- Deputy Dermot Ahern: I was somewhat tional Weapons and, more significantly, through bemused by the Senator’s remarks in that respect. active engagement and leadership in the Oslo In any event, I was pleased to be asked to con- process. The Dublin diplomatic conference on sider an all-party motion, on the basis of which cluster munitions, which the Government will all of us should unite to condemn a horrible prac- host in Croke Park in May 2008, will be the criti- 1673 Cluster Munitions: 6 March 2008. Motion 1674 cal stage in the process. While difficult issues cate their support in the coming months and to remain, I am confident that it will be possible to participate in the negotiations in Dublin. finalise a treaty at the conference. Significant differences remain to be resolved My officials obviously offer a view on the likely on key issues such as definitions, any possible success of the conference. We need a strong res- period of transition to a ban and future military olution and commitment from member states. I co-operation, including in United Nations man- agree with Senator Norris that certain nations dated missions, with states not party to the con- should be named and shamed for using cluster vention. There is also reason to believe that these munitions. I have been reasonably vocal in that can be resolved and prospective solutions for respect and will maintain that position. many less contentious issues have already For several years, Ireland has been expressing emerged in the course of the earlier meetings in its concerns at the unacceptable consequences of the process. the use of cluster munitions in the UN context. I am confident we are on track for the adoption Two main issues arise. First, the use of cluster of a comprehensive and effective convention that munitions can be indiscriminate at the time of will get on board users, producers and cluster use, thus harming civilians who are within range. munitions affected states. It is also our aim to In practice this is usually the case. Second, the establish a new norm of international humani- high failure rate of sub-munitions at the time of tarian law which will influence the behaviour of impact creates an enduring hazard of unexploded every state engaging in conflict, regardless of ordnance, causing casualties long after the cess- whether it has ratified the convention. This has ation of hostilities and making much land unus- been the experience of the Ottawa Convention in able. At present, international humanitarian law stigmatising the use of landmines, even by states does not adequately address these concerns. The not party to it, and we believe that experience can lethal consequences of these weapons were most be emulated. recently apparent in southern Lebanon but have I assure the Seanad that the Government is also affected south-east Asia, the Balkans and fully seized of the other issues in the motion other theatres of war. under discussion. As I have stated, the key aim In light of the absence of progress in Geneva of the new treaty will be to prohibit the unacceptable humanitarian harm caused by clus- and inspired by the process which led to the con- ter munitions. However, we must also look to the clusion of the Ottawa Convention on Anti-Per- past impact and the damage inflicted on societies sonnel Mines ten years ago, Norway convened a and individuals by these horrendous weapons. I meeting in Oslo in February 2007 of countries have seen the terrible risk posed to civilian popu- ready to explore ways to address the issue of clus- lations by unexploded cluster munitions in ter munitions in a determined and effective man- Lebanon, which I visited the year before last. ner. Forty-six states present adopted the Oslo That visit was probably instrumental in me taking declaration which committed them to conclude up the cudgel here in respect of these issues by 2008 a legally binding international instrument because I saw for myself the effects on the that will ”prohibit the use, production, transfer ground. I spoke with the Irish military personnel and stockpiling of cluster munitions that cause working on the ground with the Finns to de-mine unacceptable harm to civilians.’’ They also com- particular areas and saw the different types of mitted to co-operation and assistance for sur- cluster munitions. For whatever reason they vivors and affected communities, clearance of appear to be manufactured in a way that they affected areas and destruction of stockpiles. look like toys in some instances. I discussed the Ireland is one of seven states driving the Oslo issue with the military personnel there and when process. The others are Norway, Austria, New I came home I discussed it again with some of the Zealand, Mexico, Peru and the Holy See. We military personnel here. It is clear these have participated actively in a series of con- munitions are used in circumstances, as Senator ferences in Oslo, Lima, Vienna and Wellington to Norris said, where armies are leaving a particular identify the issues, clarify positions and formulate territory and making that territory unusable for a draft treaty. Political momentum has grown sig- many years to come and putting civilian lives at nificantly. When I became actively involved in risk. this issue I was told that Ireland might be on its The draft convention contains strong pro- own and I said I do not mind if we are on our visions for humanitarian assistance for victims, own. I believe it was the right thing to do. There the clearance of areas contaminated by unex- were only a few countries involved at the start of ploded cluster munitions, assistance in the the campaign on landmines and now most of the destruction of stockpiles of weapons and risk edu- countries in the world have signed up to the anti- cation. I am hopeful that the treaty which landmine treaty. emerges from the negotiations will be the most At the most recent conference in Wellington comprehensive of its kind in addressing those two weeks ago, more than 80 states immediately needs. endorsed the Wellington Declaration, which lays It seems certain that legislation will be required the foundation for the Dublin Diplomatic Con- to enable Ireland ratify the convention when it is ference. Many more states are expected to indi- agreed. While Ireland has never possessed cluster 1675 Cluster Munitions: 6 March 2008. Motion 1676

[Deputy Dermot Ahern.] convention but the Government is already com- munitions and is therefore not in the situation of mitted to those objectives and is working to fulfil a number of states which have adopted national them in close cooperation with the NGOs and prohibitions, it is the Government’s intention to with UN agencies. Since 2000, we have provided propose that this legislation should enact a some \20 million in funding to meet needs in this domestic ban. To ensure that our legislation is of area. Irish Aid has an ongoing relationship with the highest possible quality, the Government has a number of the leading NGOs operating in this therefore agreed to establish a new national com- field. I am proud to have seen for myself some of mittee on humanitarian law, whose first task will their activities on the ground, bringing some relief be to begin consideration of the measures neces- and support to victims and their communities. sary to give effect to the future convention. We Our partners include HALO Trust, Mine Action believe this is a better way to go than bringing in Group and Handicap International, and we have legislation before May and then having to come also provided funding for Explosive Remnants of back to change it after May. War, ERW, relief measures in Somalia, In consultation with all parties in the Afghanistan, Angola, Mozambique and Iraq Oireachtas, the draft legislation, when prepared, among other countries. My colleague, the Mini- will be given the necessary priority in the ster of State, Deputy Kitt, has recently approved Oireachtas timetable. Ireland was one of the first \1.875 million of funding for HALO Trust’s de- countries to ratify the Ottawa Convention and it mining activities in three countries in 2008. would be an honour, and in line with Govern- It is anticipated that the expansion of the Irish ment policy, for Ireland to be among the first to Aid budget will result in an increase in the level ratify the cluster munitions convention when it of funding available to respond to proposals from comes out in the Dublin conference. suitable partners. This will assist us in imple- Some have suggested we should enact a menting the ambitious and far-reaching pro- national ban even in advance of the conference. visions of the convention which I expect to be I understand the desire to demonstrate leadership agreed in Dublin in May and carried forward into in this area but it makes sense to wait and see national legislation. what is required in terms of legislation to ratify The question of investment related to the pro- the expected convention. I assure the House duction or financing of cluster munitions has been there will not be any delay thereafter. Moreover, raised also. I am pleased the motion highlighted organising the conference is itself a major task and will show in a practical way our commitment that issue. As a result of it being brought to my to focusing on making it a success. attention some months ago I asked my Depart- ment to raise the issue. I spoke on the issue per- Civil society has played a welcome and valu- able role in the Oslo process. The Cluster sonally with the chief executive officer of the Munition Coalition, CMC, the international National Pensions Reserve Fund some months umbrella body representing more than 200 non- ago. My Department continues to examine best governmental organisations campaigning on this practice on ethical investment by the investment issue, has been an important partner throughout funds of like-minded countries. With that in and its representatives will attend the Diplomatic mind, I initiated contacts some time ago with my Conference in May. My Department remains in colleague, the Ta´naiste and Minister for Finance. close contact with the CMC and with other NGOs While not seeking to interfere with the indepen- active in this area and is working closely with dence of the National Pensions Reserve Fund them on preparations for the conference. I am Commission, which is independent under the appreciative of the co-operation and mutual legislation passed by the Houses of the understanding that has prevailed with the CMC Oireachtas, my objective was to try to ensure that on the range of issues in play and its general sup- no public funds are invested in any company port for our principled national stance. involved in or associated with the production of The United Nations and the International cluster munitions. While there are a number of Committee of the Red Cross have been active in legal and practical issues still to be teased out, the their engagement and advocacy on the cluster reaction from both the Ta´naiste and Minister for munitions issue and staunch in their support for Finance and the National Pensions Reserve Fund the Oslo process. Their ongoing contribution is Commission has been positive and supportive. invaluable and I look forward to welcoming them to the conference. Senator David Norris: Should there not be The motion urges support for research, publi- ethical guidelines for the National Pensions cation and awareness raising initiatives on this Reserve Fund Commission? subject nationally and internationally. It also urges support for victim assistance, clearance of Deputy Dermot Ahern: There are. We are areas contaminated by unexploded remnants of talking about ensuring that from now on, and war, destruction of stockpiles, risk education and particularly in the context of any future legis- support for rehabilitation of survivors and their lation, there will be a ban on the investment by socio-economic integration. As I have outlined, our pension reserve funds in any companies that these issues will be adequately addressed in the manufacture cluster munitions. 1677 Cluster Munitions: 6 March 2008. Motion 1678

Senator David Norris: What about existing paigned against these weapons, “Ninety-eight investments? percent of cluster submunitions casualties are civ- ilians killed and injured while returning home in An Cathaoirleach: The Minister, without the aftermath of conflict or while going about interruption. their daily tasks to survive.” Its comments on the use of these weapons are Deputy Dermot Ahern: That is an issue for the blunt: independent National Pensions Reserve Fund. It Despite a general lack of information on has signed up to ethical guidelines in that respect casualties both during and after strikes, it is but when it was pointed out that there are reports clear unexploded cluster submunitions turn that some funds have been invested in cluster homes, livelihoods and social areas of almost munitions, it is in agreement with Government 400 million people living in affected countries policy, which is enunciated in the programme for into de facto minefields. A total of 13,306 casu- Government and I have indicated clearly to it alties due to cluster submunitions are con- that it is the desire of Government to ensure no firmed. However, as 96% of casualties occur in pension funds are invested in cluster munitions countries where there is no or limited data col- manufacturing companies and, if required, legis- lection, there are undoubtedly more casualties. lation will be put in place—— In high-use locations, such as Iraq there were more than 1,000 casualties during strikes. Senator David Norris: That is very helpful. The fact that it is often people who have survived Deputy Dermot Ahern: ——to ensure they are brutal conflicts and are returning home thinking given cover in that respect. The Government is they are safe who end up injured or killed by determined to achieve the strongest possible pro- these weapons adds a particular horror to their hibition on cluster munitions and to make a use. In Kosovo, 53% of casualties occurred in the meaningful difference to the lives and livelihoods two months after the conflict. Most of the victims of vulnerable civilians around the world who have killed or maimed were boys aged between five suffered from their use. and 15. I have made clear my personal and long-stand- It is not only the age of the victims of these ing engagement on this issue. I have been active abominable weapons that is shocking. We see on this for the past two and a half years, these weapons targeted specifically at the poor especially since I returned from Lebanon. Ireland for it is often their farmlands which are littered is playing a strong leadership role in international with the bombs which, like landmines, are spread efforts to this end through its participation in the all over the place. However, the poor have no Oslo process and the convening of the Dublin choice but to return to their farms and to try to conference in May. We are committed to carrying live there, in the process spending every day forward the outcome of the conference into worrying that when they plough the land, herd domestic legislation and policy and to using the their cattle or travel to their homes they may step resources at our disposal to support victim assist- on an unexploded bomb left by the clustered ance, risk management, clearance of contami- explosion and lose an arm or leg or perhaps their nated areas and destruction of stockpiles of clus- lives. Every day they face the fear that their chil- ter munitions. I look forward to the continuing dren may never come home from school, yet collaboration of all parties in the Oireachtas in another victim of an unexploded remnant of a this endeavour. cluster bomb. I quote again from Handicap International Senator Maurice Cummins: I welcome the which has done major work to highlight the evil Minister to the House. I agree with Senator of cluster bombs. Norris with regard to the re-ordering of the busi- The majority of victims are poor, uneducated ness of the House. It is regrettable that as the males at work representing 76.8% of total con- proposer of the motion, he was not informed the firmed casualties. Many of these are boys under Order of Business had been changed. the age of 18. In South Lebanon, nearly 90% Cluster bombs are an abomination. They pose of land used for farming and shepherding is a particular risk to civilians and often to children contaminated with unexploded cluster sub- because, as their name suggests, they leave large munitions. numbers of dangerous explosive devices spread across the landscape. They can remain live and Like many modern weapons, cluster munitions dangerous for decades after they have been owe their origins to the Second World War when launched, killing not only the generation of they were used indiscriminately. Remarkably, people alive when the bomb is dropped but also since the mid-1960s they seem to have been tar- their children and even their grandchildren. geted against civilians in many areas. They are The dangers of one cluster bomb can be seen in not merely a weapon to win wars. They are a wea- a simple statistic. The footprint of a single cluster pon used to terrorise communities, to lay waste bomb can be as large as a football pitch. In the large tracts of land and to hit the poor in words of Handicap International, which has cam- particular. 1679 Cluster Munitions: 6 March 2008. Motion 1680

[Senator Maurice Cummins.] the basis that this is an all-party motion, that the In Kosovo, cluster bombs were used by NATO issue is current in the media and that a window without a deployment of NATO troops. In May became available in the Seanad schedule — a rare 1995, the Croatian capital, Zagreb, was targeted commodity in itself. If this presumption led to a deliberately by Serb forces with cluster bombs lack of proper consultation with the instigator of among other weapons. One Serb general made the motion, I apologise. no secret of his tactics. He told the press that if the Croats launched an offensive, he would attack Senator David Norris: The date is fine. weak points. He stated with regard to Zagreb, However, it was shifted from 3.30 p.m. to 1 p.m. “We know who the people in the parks are: civ- with no notice to any of the people participating ilians.” One bomb fired contained 288 bomblets, and no consultation with the Whips despite what each of which on explosion released 420 steel pel- I was told. What I was told was not true. lets, with a kill range of 10 metres. In other words, each rocket released 120,000 pellets, designed Senator Dan Boyle: Sometimes this happens deliberately to kill people not only when the because of the early passage of business and it bomblets were released but indefinitely into the cannot be avoided. future. On the motion, which is an all-party motion, In Vietnam, decades after the end of the Viet- the existence of the arms industry is morally sus- nam war, 300 people per year are still being killed pect in itself. There is often a moral relativism in by cluster bombs and landmines. People died for debating subjects of this nature. One of the iron- years after 1,400 cluster bombs were dropped in ies about the war in Iraq since 2003 is the pretext Kosovo. In 2000, the BBC reported the American for beginning the war, namely, the belief in the cluster bombs, whether by accident or design, existence of weapons of mass destruction, as were visually appealing to children when they though weapons which wreak less destruction are found them due to their bright yellow colour. more morally acceptable. Most people on the However, in the BBC’s words, “they contain an planet would accept the morality of weapons is incendiary device — shrapnel — and armour something we should strive to limit and prohibit piercing explosive that can pierce steel 25 cm wherever possible. The international debate, in thick”. which Ireland has participated, has concentrated This is why my party is passionately opposed on banning cluster munitions, the most perni- to the use of cluster bombs. Defence can some- cious, indiscriminate and most violent of wea- times be necessary. However, creating weapons pons. This is a timely debate because it has been specifically to kill civilians — innocent men, preceded by a media debate to which the Minister women and children — for decades after a war is for Foreign Affairs has contributed. over can never be justified. One of the Council Several articles in The Irish Times, the first by of Europe’s goodwill ambassadors, human rights my friend and colleague, the former MEP for activist, Bianca Jagger, put the scandal in context: Leinster, Nuala Ahern, was followed by one The first proposals to ban cluster bombs today by the Minister. There was no real dis- were made in 1974. Since that time the wea- agreement between the two articles. In her article pons have been used in some 25 countries and, Nuala Ahern went to great pains to stress the role most worryingly, they are now in the arsenals the Minister has played in this debate and recog- of 70 states world-wide. Cluster bombs have nised the importance his party has given it. What- already killed too many innocent civilians both ever level of disagreement that existed between during and after conflict. the two articles was only strategic in nature. I am glad to note from the Minister’s contri- The Minister referred to the Oslo declaration bution that there will be further commitments to and the countries involved in it. It is a wonderful the introduction of legislation that will include a document and I am glad to hear from the Mini- national ban on cluster bombs. This may seem ster that other countries are becoming more like an act of moral relativism in that we do not actively involved in supporting the ending of the produce cluster bombs but it is an important sig- use of these dreadful weapons. I assure the Mini- nal in helping to achieve international agree- ster my party will do all in its power to bring an ments of this nature. end to the horrors and the evil of cluster bombs. If the forthcoming Dublin conference acts as We support this motion, just as we support the the mechanism to bring about this agreement, Dublin conference scheduled for May to push for Irish politics should be proud of the role the a ban on the use of these weapons. In the name Minister and the Government have played and of the generations of dead children we could not that should be applauded. As the Minister stated, save, we commit ourselves to ensuring in what- it is a strong part of the programme for Govern- ever way we can that no more children die at the ment. As one who helped to negotiate the prog- hands of these abominable weapons. I commend ramme on behalf of the Green Party, I am the motion to the House. pleased to see this provision has been included. The Minister has highlighted the use of the Senator Dan Boyle: I will begin by apologising Irish Aid programme to help the victims of clus- to Senator Norris. A presumption was made on ter bombs as individuals and as members of their 1681 Cluster Munitions: 6 March 2008. Motion 1682 communities, which is laudable. However, deal- advance of the conference on munitions in ing with the effects of the bombs after they have Dublin in May. wreaked their havoc is not the best use of our aid The motion reminds the Government of its programme. A possible success from the Dublin commitment to legislate in this area. I read in The conference could be that the moneys from our aid Irish Times recently that the Government will programmes would be better directed. delegate responsibility on munitions to a new On the argument whether legislation should be committee on humanitarian law to be established introduced before or after the Dublin conference, by the Department of Foreign Affairs. Austria, I accept what the Minister has said. It is standard Belgium, Hungary and Norway have enacted practice that a convention is agreed upon, fol- legislation on this matter. I hope this proposed lowed by legislation which has been accepted by committee ensures comprehensive, tight and several non-governmental organisations. One timely legislation on cluster munitions is intro- advantage to having legislation prior to a conven- duced. I would hate to see the advent of the com- tion is that it might help inform agreement. It mittee leading to further delays. would put Ireland in a category with countries Cluster munitions are an urgent matter requir- such as Austria, Belgium, Norway and Hungary. ing international action. Cluster bombs are the Norway’s position is interesting in several most indiscriminate of all conventional bombs. respects. One area in which we must ensure we The affected area of one cluster bomb can be as are not compromised concerns our national wide as the combined area of three football fields. investment programme. In the 29th Da´il I intro- A cluster bomb used on a military target will not duced a Private Members’ Bill on ethical invest- just affect military personnel and installations. It ment to require the National Pensions Reserve can lead to horrible deaths and injuries to inno- Fund to present to the Minister for Finance how cent civilians in non-military areas. ethical investment for the fund could be followed. These munitions often fail to explode on It was not accepted at the time but the principles impact. The ordnance becomes less of a bomb behind it need to be revisited. The United and more a landmine. It is estimated that after Nations’ ethical guidelines on investment will not the 2006 conflict between Israel and Lebanon, 1 be sufficient as they are only guidelines and do million unexploded bombs remain in the conflict zone waiting to injure and kill people long into not have the force of international law. I am the future. encouraged the Minister has suggested there will be a prohibition on certain types of investment. When in Vietnam I visited the former US base, Khe Sanh, beside the Ho Chi Minh trail which A debate is needed at Cabinet level to enunciate had come under attack during the Tet Offensive. those ethical investment principles further. I When abandoning Khe Sanh, the Americans encourage the Minister to use the example of decided to bomb the Viet Cong into submission. Norway in such discussions. As a result, the surrounding area is covered in Norway has been a partner with Ireland in this unexploded ordnance. Every year innocent civ- process. The Dublin conference will build on the ilians are maimed and killed by these unex- Oslo Declaration. Not only has Norway enacted ploded munitions. legislation in banning cluster bomb production in Of the 13,000 cluster bomb casualties recorded its country, it has separate legislation regarding by one international group, 98% are civilians. I ethical funding guidelines for its national pension am glad the motion has been tabled and that fund. I hope the Minister, with his Norwegian serious clauses in it have not been amended. It counterpart, will see how a common approach insists that any legislation on the matter will make can be established. There is no dissension in the it impossible for cluster munitions or materials House on this issue. We must ensure there are no for them to be produced in Ireland. It also compromises in this area. The issue must be dealt demands legislation should assist victims of clus- with effectively, especially after the work done ter munitions. Funds must be dedicated not just already in this area by the Minister and the to the clearance of these unexploded munitions Government. but to the rehabilitation of people who have been maimed by them. Senator Dominic Hannigan: I welcome the Countries such as Ireland can act as a leading Minister to the House and congratulate the voice in working with other European countries Government on managing to deliver a Minister to help ban cluster munitions. We must ensure two hours earlier than planned. If only it could Ireland is not a passive opponent of cluster do the same with some transport projects, we munitions but an active campaigner for their would all be laughing. removal and the mitigation of their effects. If Ireland is an active campaigner it will demon- Senator David Norris: Hear, hear. strate that the Government is walking the walk as well as talking the talk. By doing this we can Senator Dominic Hannigan: I commend the help to motivate other European countries to Independent Senators on tabling this motion. I action and, it is to be hoped, embarrass some commend the Government on supporting it sub- European countries into turning away from their sequently and bringing the issue to the fore in current courses of action in the production of 1683 Cluster Munitions: 6 March 2008. Motion 1684

[Senator Dominic Hannigan.] provide psychological support and assist with cluster munitions. This motion ensures that any social and economic inclusion. legislation that eventually arises will include I encourage co-ordination between the govern- action and international leadership by Ireland. In ments of the concerned states and relevant this way we can aid the victims of cluster bombs governmental and non-governmental organis- and increase support for clearance of contami- ations in the implementation of the programme. nated land. Ireland must become a trend-setter and assist I support the motion, as does my party. I other states in their preparation of this legis- encourage the Government to act quickly, take lation. Ireland is a small country but it is effective the motion seriously and legislate strongly against and we have a big heart. It is time we led by the evil of cluster munitions. example and demonstrated the skill and commit- ment to enact a unilateral ban to make our world Senator Ann Ormonde: I understand why free of cluster munitions. I hope the text will be Senator Norris was upset at the change of time. I sufficiently comprehensive in its prohibition and too was following the agenda as I had read it this will satisfy the expectations of civil society and morning, but then I was hauled out of the Forum those affected by cluster munitions. I wish the on Europe to come over here. It confuses me Minister well in hosting the convention in May when I suddenly have to rush to be here, but I and I hope he will take the lead in pushing for did want to speak on this issue. a total ban on these awful weapons, as we have I thank the Minister for coming to the Seanad outlined in the House today. to discuss this very important issue. We as a party placed in the party manifesto for last year’s Senator John Hanafin: I am pleased to support general election a clear commitment to ban clus- the motion. The use of cluster bombs is quite ter munitions. That commitment was repeated in obscene in terms of the havoc they can wreak. the programme for Government and forms the Cluster bombs are designed to be sprayed over a basis of a Government policy which is among the wide area. The principle is simple: a large con- most progressive in the world. We are at the van- tainer is filled with small bomblets, the container guard of international efforts to rid the planet of opens, and the munitions are scattered over a these horrible weapons. After his return from broad area, creating a blanket of explosions south Lebanon, I spoke to the Minister, Deputy which can cover several hectares. In fact, this type Dermot Ahern, and he told me that he saw this of munition is a permanent threat to a civilian as a personal crusade, that he had seen at first population and a violation of international and hand the awful effects of these bombs on the civ- humanitarian law. ilian population of Lebanon, and that Ireland Ireland is well placed to hold the convention would lead the way in this area. Out of that came and to take a lead on this. Ireland is one of the the commitment in our party manifesto and in the countries that spends very little on armaments. Its programme for Government. economic and social development and its position In the weeks ahead, Ireland will host a major on the human development index have risen con- diplomatic conference on cluster munitions. The sistently. We may compare this with states that conference will complete negotiations on the first spend huge percentages of their gross domestic ever instrument of international humanitarian product on armaments. Many of these are very law specifically directed against cluster munitions. poor countries that can least afford to spend any- At the Minister’s direction, a national committee thing on weaponry. Even our nearest neighbours on humanitarian law will shortly prepare compre- spend up to 3% of GDP on armaments. Over the hensive legislation on cluster bombs. This is a past 20 years this has amounted to a significant national issue and we should not divide on it. For cumulative total being spent on an industry that this reason, I am happy this is a cross-party is of no further benefit to the community. I sug- motion with all our support. gest the reason Ireland is high on the human I note the announcement by Ireland of a total development index and is among the best coun- legislative ban on cluster munitions at the Oslo tries in the world in which to live, according to process in February 2008. This will add further The Economist, is that we have consistently gone dynamism to and accelerate the process towards on the right path. This is shown today in the fact a comprehensive ban. In preparing the legis- that there is cross-party support for banning part- lation, we must not forget that the key to this is icular types of munitions. the victims. We must provide for clearance of What concerns me is that even if we ban cluster areas contaminated by these awful bombs. We bombs, the industry will come up with something must stand by the victims to ban these bombs and else equally or more devastating. In the future I landmines forever so that children can run free in would like to see Ireland take the lead — and the the fields and go to school, and parents can till Minister is the man to do this — in encouraging their land and draw water from wells without fear all countries to focus on military spending that is of being blown up by a cluster bomb. I hope in used exclusively for peacekeeping purposes. I the draft legislation we provide support for edu- know it is a big thing to ask. A total of \1.2 tril- cation on the risks of cluster bombs, cater for the lion was spent in 2006 on armaments. If we con- rehabilitation and medical care of survivors, sider what could have been done with this money 1685 Cluster Munitions: 6 March 2008. Motion 1686 in terms of education, provision of food and help- resents war on the civilian population and the ing those states that are most in need of help in innocent. terms of health, we can see that we have missed I recall a young child being hospitalised in some wonderful opportunities, yet this amount Pristina for the amputation of both legs. He had was spent on armaments. In many cases it is a been playing with a cluster bomb. The children race to ensure a nation’s neighbour does not have found the bomb and put it down a well. It did not more tanks or armaments than the nation that is explode so they continued to play with it. One buying them or to maintain an equivalent level day they took the bomb out of the well. The of destruction. child’s 14 year old friend was killed in the I have been thinking about something that hap- explosion while the child had both legs ampu- pened in the 1980s which certainly educated me. tated. That is cruel and unjust. In Africa, one will My father said he had spoken to a banker who hear children ask one if their arms will grow had told him that the next war would be between again. That is the innocence of the people who Iran and Iraq. I was fascinated by this because are suffering. However, the munitions manufac- there was no indication at that stage of a deterior- turers and the bankers continue to have the ation in relations. There was nothing in the media inside track. to indicate that this would happen. However, the banker was quite adamant. He insisted he had Senator David Norris: I am glad the Leader of seen the amounts being spent and the armaments the House is present because I feel very strongly that were being procured, not for defensive pur- about the disgraceful way the business was re- poses but for assault purposes. Before 1 million ordered in the House. It is not true that the people died in that war, which is now almost for- Whips of all the parties knew about it or were gotten, the bankers knew it would happen from consulted. Mine was not and the Fine Gael the large transfer of funds. speaker had no knowledge of it. The first speaker I have difficulty with this industry. For that from Fianna Fa´il was hauled out of the Forum on reason, I believe Ireland has a role to play. It Europe. That is not the way to do business. I am played a significant role in the Nuclear Non-Pro- sorry to have to say it because the Leader and I liferation Treaty, which stands to this get on well. I attended the discussion on the 2 o’clock day. We spend on armaments for Order of Business. I had to leave to make an defensive purposes, for example, for urgent telephone call to the foreign affairs com- our troops in Chad and for the proper tasks mittee’s delegation in Palestine. I then had to Ireland has carried out during its proud record in attend a briefing on landmines, which was per- the United Nations. However, there are perma- fectly legitimate business. It had to be aborted nent risks with certain types of munitions, partic- and I was obliged to drive back through the ularly those being discussed today. Civilians who traffic to get to the Chamber in time. I wish to live and work in affected areas run the risk of register that protest. being killed by cluster bombs. Between 5% and I thank all speakers for their contributions. I 40% of cluster munitions do not explode on absolutely accept the Minister’s credentials; I impact and remain intact on the ground, in trees know this issue is close to his heart. All speakers or on roofs. They become de facto anti-personnel spoke eloquently, passionately and well, and landmines, waiting for the slightest movement to showed a commitment that does honour to this explode. They create a lethal danger for the civ- country. I also pay tribute to Tony D’Costa from ilian population who encounter them in the Pax Christi, who appeared before the foreign course of farm work, deforestation, building and affairs committee, and Joe Murray from Afri, so forth. Children are especially at risk as they are who also did so and briefed us on this matter. I attracted by the bright colours of certain cluster am pleased the Minister is opening discussions munitions. For those who are killed or maimed, with the Minister for Finance. There is still a long sometimes years after the end of a conflict, there way to go. I recall bringing a young lobbyist to is no difference between an anti-personnel land- meet the then Minister of State at the Depart- mine and unexploded cluster munitions. ment of Foreign Affairs, Deputy Conor Lenihan, A further reason for banning cluster munitions to discuss ethical guidelines for the national pen- is that they are a violation of international and sions fund. humanitarian law. Cluster bombs violate the prin- I can give the Minister the further information ciple of international humanitarian law and make I have received about this, the so-called “Dossier no distinction between civilian and military tar- of Shame”. It lists money invested in the arms gets. Despite this fact and the ban on landmines, trade, against which Senator Hanafin spoke so cluster bombs are still widely used. Several mil- eloquently, by national pension funds on behalf lion cluster munitions have been dropped. It costs of the pensioners of the State. The amounts are approximately $1 to produce a cluster bomb but so piddling, they could easily be divested. Boeing, it costs $1,000 to remove it. These figures are USA, produces aircraft, electronics, missiles and important when discussing developing countries space technology and maintains and upgrades the or countries emerging from conflict. The use of US Air Force’s Minuteman III intercontinental cluster bombs is one of the most indiscriminate ballistic missile or the main element of its land and inhumane methods of fighting a war. It rep- based strategic nuclear weapons. The value of 1687 Schools Building 6 March 2008. Projects 1688

[Senator David Norris.] Senator Donie Cassidy: At 2.30 p.m. on Tues- Irish pension fund shares in the company is day, 11 March 2008. \18,871,586. Northrop Grumman, USA, produces aircraft, electronics, missiles, military ships and Adjournment Matters. space technology and is a contractor for the upkeep and upgrading of the US force’s main ———— land based strategic nuclear weapons, including the Minuteman III. The value of Irish shares in Schools Building Projects. the company is \2.5 million. Lockheed Martin, Senator Brian O´ Domhnaill: Cuirim fa´ilte USA, produces aircraft, electronics, missiles, clus- roimh an Aire Stait go dtı´ an Teach inniu. I call ter bombs and space technology. The value of \ on the Minister for Education and Science to Irish shares in the company is 17,124,321. examine the Finn Valley college issue. The BAE Systems, UK, produces artillery, aircraft, Stranorlar technical school, which was built in electronics, military vehicles, small arms, ammu- 1939 and opened in 1940, is the oldest of the nition and so forth and the value of Irish shares County Donegal Vocational Educational Com- in the company is \14,543,571. Raytheon, USA mittee school today. On 5 April 2007, Stranorlar has a plant in Derry that was picketed some time technical school officially changed its name and is ago, and Irish people were sent to jail for it. This now known as the Finn Valley college or Cola´iste firm is on our land mass. It should be divested Ghleann na Finne. In 2005, the Department of of the Irish shares valued at \12,392,445. General Education and Science granted approval for the Dynamics, USA, also manufactures cluster provision of a 3,452 sq. m. new school. Planning bombs and the value of Irish shares in the com- permission for a new site was granted in pany is \12.75 million. In Finmeccanica, Italy, the November 2006 on the VEC site at Drumboe, value of Irish shares is \9,680,000. EADS of the Stranorlar. Netherlands also manufactures cluster bombs and The school has 363 students enrolled in the cur- the value of the Irish shareholding is \19,488,139. rent school year and on 25 February last, L-3 Communications, USA, manufactures cluster approval was granted for a special class encom- bombs and the value of the Irish shareholding is passing 33 teaching hours on autism-specific dis- \692,916 while the Irish shares in Thales, France, order, which is due to commence in September is \6,636,000. All these shareholdings amount to 2008. This is another indication of the excellent a total of approximately \60 million which could broad range of educational opportunities pro- easily be divested. I urge the Minister to try to vided by the school. It is also important to note persuade his colleague to do so. that the school has a teacher who is trained in I, too, have experience with these munitions. A applied behavioural analysis methods. family known to Ezra and me was collecting scrap I refer specifically to the autism class because and picked up some of these weapons. One fel- the current school accommodation and site does low, who was lucky, was killed instantly, another not have the space to provide this essential was blinded, another had his stomach blown up service. The school site is very compact, compris- and the fourth, who was 17, had both hands ing 0.996 acres. Some of the prefabs on the site blown off. We tried to raise money to get him have been in place for more than 20 years and are inadequate to meet the accommodation needs prosthetic arms so he could at least make an of the school. However, the school management effort to survive. However, we got a telephone and staff, in particular the principal and vice prin- call a month later to tell us he had died of delayed cipal, do an excellent job of maintaining the shock. It suddenly hit him that he had no hands school and the site in pristine condition. simply as a result of collecting scrap. Tenders for the project approved in 2005 were We need a clear commitment to a timescale for opened by the finance committee of Donegal the legislation. The Minister has heard some VEC and relevant members of the design team doubts expressed, although not malicious ones, on 23 August 2007. The design team, by letter that this exercise might be put on the long finger. dated 19 September 2007, forwarded a prelimi- I do not believe it will be and I sincerely hope nary tender report to the Department of Edu- not. I congratulate my colleagues who spoke so cation and Science for its consideration. Sub- eloquently, despite all of us suffering as a result sequently, by letter dated 25 October 2007, the of the short notice. It is a good day for the Seanad Department requested further or additional to have this motion passed on an all-party basis. information on the design team tender report. That is the way these humanitarian issues should The design team has responded to this request, be handled. I thank the Minister for being present by letter dated 12 November 2007 and the VEC until the end of the debate. offered the existing school site to the Depart- ment, which has an approximate independent Question put and agreed to. value of \1.5 million, as part payment. I urge the Department to accept favourably the An Leas-Chathaoirleach: When is it proposed offer from the VEC as the site could be used in to sit again? future to cater for the additional or expanding 1689 Schools Building 6 March 2008. Projects 1690 needs of the adjacent St. Mary’s national school, the Department’s multi-annual school building Scoil Mhuire, which has an extensive prefab com- and modernisation programme. The project plex. I strongly impress upon the Minister the referred to by the Senator likewise will be con- need to issue approval to accept the lowest sidered in that context. I assure the Senator that tender, which was subsequently modified, the Minister and the Department are committed together with the associated nominated subcon- to providing suitable, high-quality accom- tractors and to proceed to contract on this project modation for Finn Valley college at the earliest at the earliest possible date. The selected contrac- possible date. tor has given an undertaking by letter to the VEC to hold the tendered price until the end of May Senator Frances Fitzgerald: I call on the Mini- 2008. It is essential, therefore, that the Minister ster for Education and Science to outline a time- gives approval to allow this project to proceed at frame for the delivery of the proposed second the earliest possible date. level school for south Lucan, based on lands at Kishogue Cross, which the Department has Minister of State at the Department of Edu- agreed to in its submission to South Dublin cation and Science (Deputy Sea´n Haughey): I County Council on the variations for the Clon- thank the Senator for giving me the opportunity burris local area action plan. I am glad to have of outlining to the House my Department’s posi- the opportunity to raise this issue today and to tion regarding the proposed building project for ask the Minister of State to confirm that the Mini- Finn Valley college, Stranorlar, County Donegal. ster has agreed to this secondary school and to The existing building dates back to 1939. The pro- outline the timeframe for its development. posed new school will be constructed on a VEC- I welcome the change of heart by the Minister owned site at Drumboe Lower, Stranorlar, com- and her Department on this matter. I first raised prising 6.79 acres. this issue some time ago on the Adjournment and The proposed project will consist of the con- through parliamentary questions. I thank Deputy struction of a new school building with a pro- Brian O’Shea who raised it as a Priority Question posed floor area of 3,452 sq. m. to cater for a with the Minister for Education and Science, long-term projected enrolment of 325 pupils. The which was when we began to see a chink of light number of pupils enrolled for the current school on the issue. The attitude of the Department at year is 265. The new school will comprise four that time was that the need for such a school had general classrooms, two lecture rooms which are not been fully established. I am glad to see the interconnected, specialist rooms, ancillary accom- Minister and her Department now realise this is modation and a physical education hall. A tender not the case. report for the proposed project is under examin- The figures and the statistics that have been put ation by the Department. The contract for the forward by the Lucan south secondary school project has not yet been awarded. action group highlight very clearly the need for Modernising facilities in our 3,200 primary and the school in this rapidly growing area. The statis- 750 post-primary schools is not an easy task given tics that have been gathered by parents must the legacy of decades of underinvestment in this impress the Minister because they are better than area as well as the need to respond to emerging those the Department had on its files when this needs in areas of rapid population growth. The matter was first examined. I commend the action Government has shown a focused determination group consisting of local parents for its enthusi- to improve the condition of our school buildings asm, determination and absolute commitment to and to ensure the appropriate facilities are in obtaining a school for a rapidly growing area that place to enable the implementation of a broad has been ill-served by infrastructure, despite and balanced curriculum. many houses being built in the region. During the lifetime of the national develop- I cannot over-emphasise the stress that has ment plan almost \4.5 billion will be invested in been caused to families unable to plan ahead schools. Approximately \600 million will be spent because they do not know which school their chil- this year on school buildings. This is an unpre- dren will be enrolled in. I do not believe we cedented level of capital investment which would have reached this point if parents had not reflects the commitment of the Government to taken this matter into their own hands and col- continue its programme of sustained investment lected the statistics and figures that create a com- in primary and post-primary schools. This invest- pelling case to be put before the Department. ment will facilitate the provision of new schools It appears the Department has agreed to the and extensions in developing areas and the need for such a school for the area and that it improvement of existing schools through the pro- could be located on lands at Kishogue Cross. This vision of replacement schools, extensions or was stated in a submission to South Dublin large-scale refurbishments over the next few County Council on variations to the Clonburris years. local area plan. The council will examine this next The progression of all large-scale building pro- week. I ask the Minister to take the essential next jects from initial design stage through to construc- step in setting down a timeframe for the delivery tion phase is considered on an ongoing basis in of such a school because only by doing this can the context of the national development plan and parents plan and can the local community have 1691 Cross-Border 6 March 2008. Business Park 1692

[Senator Frances Fitzgerald.] the delivery of the proposed second level school confidence that this will happen. For far too long for south Lucan. the request for a second level school was ignored by the Department and I hope this has been recti- Cross-Border Business Park. fied. I look forward to hearing what the Minister of State at the Department of Education and Senator Cecilia Keaveney: I wish to raise the Science, Deputy Sea´n Haughey, has to say on need for a cross-Border business park in east this matter. Donegal and I have in mind locations including, among others, Muff, Bridgend, Newtowncun- ningham, areas around Killea and Carrigans. Deputy Sea´n Haughey: At the outset, I wish to There is an obvious location at Bridgend that may thank Senator Fitzgerald for raising the matter as have greater benefits than the other areas on the it affords me the opportunity to outline to the basis of its proximity to Buncrana, which the IDA Seanad the Government’s strategy for capital has earmarked for focussed investment. investment in education projects and also to out- line the position regarding the delivery of the pro- I am pleased the Minister of State is before the House today because he represents the Depart- posed second level school for south Lucan. ment of Education and Science. One of the strong As I have already mentioned, in the lifetime of points of my area derives, in a funny way, from the national development plan, almost \4.5 the demise of the textile industry. People tended billion will be invested in schools. This is an to leave school early when the textile industry unprecedented level of capital investment that thrived and its demise hit hard because whole reflects the commitment of the Government to families were employed in it and, therefore, were continue its programme of sustained investment left unemployed. There has not been great in primary and post-primary schools. This invest- change in the level of businesses entering the ment will facilitate the provision of new schools region, though there is a small number of success- and extensions in developing areas and the ful new enterprises, and this is why I again raise improvement of existing schools through the pro- the concept of a cross-Border business park. vision of replacement schools, extensions or Northern Ireland will host a major economic large-scale refurbishments over the next number conference seeking investment in May but I am of years. not sure how much the Department of Turning to the specific matter in hand, based Enterprise, Trade and Employment has done on current demographic trends my Department with regard to developing an all-island dimension anticipates that there will be a need for a further to this call from the North. We may say that the post-primary school in Lucan in the medium term North is a different jurisdiction with its own busi- and we have asked South Dublin County Council ness but we talk about the all-island approach in to identify a site for this development as part of other contexts. I ask the Minister of State to the Clonburris local area development plan. A inform the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and timeframe for the delivery of the school will be Employment that his Department should be rep- known when a suitable site has been identified resented at the conference, where it can push the and acquired by my Department. Once a suitable concept of a business park in east Donegal. This site is acquired my Department will progress the park will be above and beyond what is in Letter- project to ensure the earliest possible delivery of kenny and will support the area I am from, this school. In the meantime, my Department has Inishowen, but will only be beneficial if it creates increased capacity at the four existing post- additional opportunities. It would not be accept- primary schools to 3,000 places. The current com- able to merely relocate people from one side of bined enrolment is 2,500, which means that there the Border to the other on account of our tax is spare capacity for some 500 pupil places. policies. If we have service sites on the Border A building project which is in train for Lucan that can be sold by the IDA there is bound to be Community College will further increase capacity a positive impact on both the Derry side and the by 200 pupil places. In addition to this, a building Donegal side. project for St. Joseph’s College has been assessed Derry is the fourth largest city on this island so and the project brief, which will provide an mutual collaboration is the key because it will additional 200 places, has been agreed. mean east Donegal is surrounded by access The combined total of extra places that will be points. One of the difficulties in selling my area available when these projects are completed will is that people see Ireland not as a 32 county be 900, which is the equivalent of a post-primary island but a 26 county island. Derry is accessible school in its own right. These measures will assist by air and, slowly, by train; roads are being in reducing pressure for pupil places in the short improved and we are surrounded by water. to medium term while the process of advancing Letterkenny Institute of Technology is receiving the project for a new school continues. serious investment from the Government, which I again thank the Senator for raising this matter is helping it with innovation funds and incubation and for allowing me to outline the progress being units. I hope the incubation units and the drive made under the school building and modernis- that comes from the innovation fund will filter ation programme and the position in regard to into businesses but if businesses in incubation 1693 Cross-Border 6 March 2008. Business Park 1694 units create ideas they will need service sites to development of the north west and provides a move into. This is apart from the fact that we strategic action plan to further develop this need locations for outside investors. region of the island. I am not convinced that the potential of my In economic terms, Ireland is distinguished for area is being maximised. Decentralisation is to the quality of our national capabilities, inno- reach Buncrana, the \21 million investment has vation, creativity and success in attracting foreign begun and building work is commencing but we direct investment. IDA Ireland is experienced in must sell the message that the area is as good any the work of promoting inward investment and is in which to invest. The situation is not helped constantly moving its focus and direction in when jobs are threatened, such as those related response to both local economic development to the Coast Guard at Malin Head. Signals from needs in Ireland and to the changing nature of Government on the importance of a location are foreign direct investment globally. To support its crucial. mission and promote balanced regional develop- I raise this issue because we have spoken of a ment, IDA Ireland works closely with other agen- cross-Border business park for some time and Sir cies on the island to promote the island of Ireland Reg Empey studied the location from a Northern as an investment location for mutual benefit. Irish perspective a long time ago. We have talked Any proposal to capitalise on or to increase our about this for too long and action is needed. ability to advance this agenda will be considered Someone must make a decision. The IDA must carefully by my Department and agencies under stop examining sites and start acquiring sites, its remit. In this context, I am aware that, only creating the basic infrastructure that is needed. last week, a speculative outline proposal for an For example, if there is a good response to the IDA Ireland business park, to be located on the investment conference in May we may be able to Donegal side of the Derry-Donegal border, get some of the benefits in the north west. If designed to attract foreign direct investment, was people are drawn through an investment con- received by the Southern Joint Secretariat of the ference in the North to looking at Derry as an North-South Ministerial Council. This proposal option, a cross-Border business park or a business has only come to the attention of my Department park in Donegal will attract those same people and has been forwarded to IDA Ireland for because corporation tax and other incentives will examination and consideration. The Senator can ensure they come to us rather than stay in Derry. rest assured that this proposal will be given due I hope the Minister of State has good news for consideration by the agency. me. Given the many tours into the area I hope In this regard one of the most significant devel- there will be many announcements of investment. opments in recent years has been the close co- I come from a good location that has a good sup- operation between IDA Ireland and Invest port network of education. We are beside the Northern Ireland in the north west leading to the fourth largest city in the country and we should creation of the Virtual Cross Border Technology exploit the potential of the May conference. Park linking Letterkenny and Derry. This process commenced in 2000 when both State agencies Deputy Sea´n Haughey: I am pleased to take worked together to market the north west of this Adjournment matter in my capacity as a Ireland, namely Donegal and Derry to prospec- Minister of State also based at the Department of tive foreign direct investment as a cross-Border Enterprise, Trade and Employment. park. This cross-Border project was approved EU While the economies of Northern Ireland and Structural funding of \10 million by the Interreg Republic of Ireland may have many differences Steering Committee, under the Interreg IIIA the global competitive challenges faced by busi- Programme for Ireland and Northern Ireland, ness enterprises in both jurisdictions are the 2000 to 2006. same. It is appropriate that we should jointly The fundamental concept of the virtual park address those challenges where there is mutual was to capitalise on the combined strengths of benefit to be achieved. Letterkenny and Derry as an economic corridor. One of the outcomes from the peace process The aim of the park initiative was to exploit the and the Good Friday Agreement in Northern improved political environment in Northern Ireland is the opening up of opportunity to pur- Ireland to develop an economic corridor of scale sue mutually beneficial cross-Border co-oper- in the Letterkenny-Derry area that would act as ation on aspects of economic policy, infrastruc- a catalyst for the economic development of the ture and spatial planning. The Agreement set out entire north west region. a new vision for the island of Ireland and the A key focus of the virtual park has been to gen- institutions established under the Agreement erate an urban location of scale by developing have shown the benefits that can be derived from initiatives that allow Letterkenny and Derry to all-island collaboration. The Agreement facili- effectively operate, as much as is practical, as one tates the development of specific initiatives that economic entity. The corridor has a population of can exploit the combined attributes of “paired” approximately 120,000 with a hinterland of urban centres on each side of the border. The 300,000 to 400,000. This mirrors the Cork region north west gateway initiative that was launched in terms of population. In addition, it aims to in 2006 is a joint North-South approach to the build a substantial resource of new high quality 1695 The 6 March 2008. Adjournment 1696

[Deputy Sea´n Haughey.] through collaboration between the enterprise property solutions on both sides of the Border development agencies, North and South. IDA and to develop an integrated, high quality, high Ireland and Invest Northern Ireland agree that capacity and resilient telecoms network, capable the ongoing development of the business envir- of meeting the most demanding needs of both onment is critical and that a common working existing and new prospective foreign direct agenda in the areas of skills enhancement and investment and indigenous industry companies. infrastructure provision should be pursued in the The project also aims to develop a strong level of interests of attracting foreign direct investment to participation by the various third level education the island. and research institutions within the Letterkenny- In addition to the virtual cross border tech- Derry corridor, in initiatives and projects that nology park, this co-operation between the form close collaborative links with industry and enterprise development agencies is evident in a build research and development capability in tar- number of ways. Each year the boards of IDA geted areas. Ireland and Invest Northern Ireland meet to Improvements to the road infrastructure con- review and discuss issues of mutual concern. On necting the properties are being conducted as 15 February 2008 the chairmen and chief execu- part of the virtual park in both Letterkenny and tives of IDA Ireland, Enterprise Ireland and Invest Northern Ireland attended a lunch meeting Derry. Some key elements of the virtual park hosted by Dr Martin McAleese at A´ ras an Uacht- initiative have not yet been completed, such as ara´in. The meeting discussed potential areas for the completion of the property elements by both co-operation and mutual benefit and provided a IDA Ireland and Invest Northern Ireland before useful forum for discussion of economic develop- the end of 2008 Interreg deadline and the finalis- ment and cross border co-operation between the ation and implementation of a marketing and agencies. promotional strategy that maximise the image of IDA Ireland, along with the other development the virtual park. A comprehensive study on the agencies, is also available to assist with plans for all-island economy in 2006, which was com- the forthcoming conference on US Investment in missioned by the British-Irish Intergovernmental Northern Ireland to be held in Belfast on 8 and 9 Conference, recognised the need for driving May and IDA Ireland officials in the United North-South co-operation and identified a States have already provided help on the ground number of areas where co-ordinated policy inter- to the Northern Ireland Bureau in Washington. vention would prove beneficial to both juris- I am confident that the efforts and hard work dictions. The areas identified included co-oper- of Governments, both North and South, together ation on trade and investment promotion, with the hard work and co-operation of the agen- research and development and the development cies on the ground will continue to build on the of the knowledge economy, education and train- foundations that have already been laid arising ing systems to enhance human capital, and co- from the peace dividend and see continued ordinated provision of key transport, energy and improvements in terms of jobs and infrastructures telecommunications infrastructure. for the peoples on both sides of the Border. While the two jurisdictions on the island of Senator Cecilia Keaveney: Go raibh maith Ireland offer different packages to attract foreign agat. direct investment, it is in the interest of both juris- dictions to co-operate on an island of Ireland The Seanad adjourned at 2.40 p.m. until basis where there is mutual advantage, including 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 11 March 2008.