1883. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE. 1261

PETITIONS, ETC. SENATE. The following petitions and papers were laid on the Clerk's desk, under the rule, and referred as follows : WEDNESDAY, January 17, 1883. By 1r. ANDERSON: The petition of the Cigar-makers' Union, No. The Senate metat 11 o'clock a.m. Prayer by the Chaplain, Rev. J. 61, of Atchison, Kansas, protesting against reduction of duty on im­ J. BuLLoCK, D. D. ported cigars-to the Committee on Ways and Means. The Journal of yesterday's proceedings was read and approved. .Also, the petition of R. T. Kerr and 100 others, of Hollenberg, Kan­ l:>a8, asking that lumber be placed on the free-list-to the same com­ PETITIONS .AND MEMORIALS. mittee. Mr. MILLER, of New York, presented resolutions of the board of Also, the petition of citizens of Riley County, Kansas, for the enact­ directors ofthe Maritime Association ofthe Port ofNew York, protesting ment of a law for the equalization of bounties-to the Select Commit­ against the passage of the bill providing for the establishment of a. tee on the Payment of Pensions, Bounty, and Back Pay. bureau of mercantile marine in the Navy Department; which were By Mr. BRAGG: The petition of Wayne, Rand & Co. and others, of referred to the Committee on Commerce. :Manitowoc, Wisconsin, protesting against increase of duty on tin-plate :S:e also presented a preamble and resolutions adopted by the board and sheet-iron-to the Committee on Ways and Means. of directors of the Maritime Association of the Port of New York, pro­ By Mr. COBB: The resolutions adopted by the board of trade of the testing against the passage of the bill to transfer the administration of city of Chicago, for the passage of the Senate substitute for bill H. R. the revenue-cutter service to theNavy Department; which were referrred 5656-to the same committee. to the Committee on Commerce. By Mr. CRAPO: The petition of John G. Thompson and others, pro­ Mr. McMILLAN presented the memorial of W·. F. Moritz, J. H. testing against the transfer of the revenue-marine service to the Navy Wolterstorff, and other mrumfadurers, citizens of Saint Paul, Minne­ and against the establishment of the mercantile-marine bureau-to the sota, using tin-plates and sheet-iron, remonstrating against any increase Committee on Naval Affairs. of the duty on the raw material; which was ordered to lie on the table. By ~1r. DAVIDSON: Bills for the improvement of the northwest cnannel of the harbor of Key West. Florida; of Tampa, Bay, Florida; of REPORTS OF COMMITTEES. Manatee River, Florida, and of Withlacoochee River, Florida-sever­ ~- FRYE, from the Committee on Claims, to whom was referred ally to the Committee on Commerce. the bill (S. 2308) for the relief of Joseph Wescott & Son, reported it By lli. G. R. DAVIS: The petition of the Cigar-makers' Union of without amendment, and submitted a report thereon, which was ordered Chicago, Illinois, representing 1, 000 members, protesting against any to be printed. reduction of duty on imported cigars-to the Committee on Ways and BILLS INTRODUCED. ~leans. By Mr. FLOWER: The petition of citizens of the city of New York Ur. EDMUNDS asked and, by unanimous consent, obtained leave to engaged in scientific pursuits, praying for the construction of a. national introduce a bill (S. 2380) to provide for the appointment of a commis­ observatory-to the Committee on Public Buildings and Grounds. sion to investigate the subject of railroad transportation; which was • By Mr. GARRISON: The petition of James McLaughlin, for relief­ read the first time by its title. to the Committee on the District of Columbia. Mr. EDMUNDS. Before the bill is read the second time and referred, By lli. HASKELL: The petition of Worley Brothers & Co. and others, I wish to say that it has been prepared by the Commissioner of Rail­ of Fort Scott, Kansas, relative to the duty on tin-plate-to the Com­ roads. I do not take the responsibility of agreeing to ail of its provis­ mittee on Ways and Means. ions of detail, nor do I know that they are wrong, but it is right to say By 1\Ir. KASSO~: The petition of citizens of Des Ioines, Iowa, pro­ that it is not my own bill. However, I entirely agree with him, and I t-esting against terminating the fishery clauses of the treaty .of the nited hope with a great ~any Senators, tliat in some manner the subject of tates with England-to the Committee on Foreign Affairs. regulatingthetransportation, thecommerce, ofthisgreatcountry, which By Mr. J. H. McLEAN: PapersrelatingtotheclaimofMrs. Margaret embraces a continent, in such a way as to deal justly with the people, Bender-to the Committee on Ways and Means. who produce things and consume them, and at the same time to deal By Mr. A. H. SMITH: The petition of D. W. Bair and 68 others, jru.--tly with the carrie1'8, prevent unjust combinations either way, but citizens of Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, for increase of duty on to have fair play, and take into view also the relations of water trans­ Sumatra. tobacco-to the same committee. portation to railroad transportation, a part ofit, is a subject of the very By Mr. WILLIS: The petition of Dr. John J. Speed and others, for greatest importance. Therefore I very cheerfully introduce the bill which continuance of immigrant inspection service-to the Select Committee this gentleman has prepared, and after its second reading I ask that it on the Public Health. be referred tothe CommitteeonRailroads, whichisupposeistheproper committee. The following petitions for a reduction of the duty on sugar were Mr. ALLISO~. Unless the bill is very long I should like to haveit presented and referred to the Committee on Ways and Means: read at length. By Mr. ANDERSON: Of Charles Pairan and 18 others, of White Mr. EDMUNDS. It is not very long. Rock; of A. F. Abernerthy and 87 others, of Scottsville; of J. Sandi­ The bill was read a. second time at length, as follows: landa and 35 others, of Atchison; of Long & Brown and 39 others, of Be it enacted, &c. That a commission, to consist of seven members, is hereby con­ ~Ianhattan; of L. D. Hess and 31 others, of Medicine Lodge; ofH. C. stituted to investigate and report to Congress what legislation, if any, is necessary or expedient to regulate interstate railroad transportation services aud charges. Rash and 13 others, of Salina.; of William H. Bower and 6 others, of SEC. 2. That the President of the United States shall, by and with the advice Manhattan, andofC. C. McCarthy and 41 others, ofNortonville, Kansas. and consent of the Senate, appoint seven commissioners, three of whom shall be By Mr. BRAGG: Of Charles Farnum and 27 others, citizens of Fond experts in railroad transportation, and one of whom, the first named, shall be president of the commission. The commissioners shall receive as compensation duLac, Wisconsin. for their services each at the rate of 10 per day when engaged in acti.ve duty, By ~1r. COBB: Of J. W. Cassill and 51 others, citU;ens of Vincennes, and actual traveling and other necessary expenses. The commissionsha.llhave Indiana. power to employ a. stenographer and a me senger, and the foregoing compensa­ tion and expenses shall be audited and paid by the SecretaryoftheTreasuryout By Mr. CROWLEY: Of William Rudd and 47 others, of Perry, and of any moneys in the Treasury not otherwise appropriated. of James A. Webster and 80 others, ofWaisaw, New York. SEc. 3. That it shall be the duty of said commission to take into consideration and to thoroughly investigate all the questions relating to theestablishmentand By Mr. DAWES: Of A. L. Miller and 42 others, and of C. W. Davis maintenance of reasonable and just interstate transportation tariffs for passengers and 79 others, of Malta, Ohio. and freights by railroads or other modes of transportation affecting railroad trans­ By Mr. DE MOTTE: Of William Lisk and30 others, citizens of Wol­ portation within the United States; and for the purpose of fully examining the cott, Indiana. matters which• may come before it, said comiD.lS ion, in the pro ecution of its inquiries, is empowered to visit such different portions and ectionsof the coun­ By Mr. HASKELL: Of N. W. Flemming and 36 others, of Paola, try as it may deem advisable. Kansas. SEc. 4. That the commission shall make to Congress final report of the results of its investigation and the testimony taken in the course of the same, together By Mr. LADD: Of 225 citizens of Bangor and Houlton, Maine. with a bill which snail1 embody their suggestions, not later than the first Monday By Jl.fr. REED: Of W. & C. R. Milliken and 249 others, of Portland; of December, 1883, and it shall cause the testimony taken to be printed from time of D. C. Palmer and 90 others, of Gardiner; of George M. Bean and 77 to time and distributed to members of Congre s by the Public Printer, and shall others, of Augusta; ofT. B. Hume & Son and 88 others, of Eastport; of aJso cause to be printed for the use of Congress 2,000 copies of its final report, E. A. Barnard & Son and 36. others, of Calais; of George R. Andrews together with the testimony. and 91 others, of Biddeford; of William T. Libby and 82 others, of Au­ Mr. EDMUNDS. I wish to withdraw my suggestion that the bill be burn, and of H. B. Bartlett and 275 others, of Lewiston, Maine. referred to the Committee on Railroads, for I had forgotten there is the By Mr. A. H. SMITH: Of Lewis J. Kirk and 25 others, of A. K. Committee on Commerce, which deals with commercial affairs between Bender and 40 others, and of Jesse Klugh and 20 others, citizens of Lan­ the States, and the Committee on Transportation Rout to the Sea­ caster County, Pennsylvania. board, which also might be a perfectly n.itable committee for the con­ By 1.1r. SPARKS: Ofcitizens of New Baden, Clinton County, Dlinois. sideration of the bill. I do not know to which of tho e committees the By ~. STOCKSLAGER: Of A. J. Hardingand and 34 others, of Os­ bill fairly ought to go. Therefore I do not make any motion about it, good, Indiana. but I think on reflection it ought to go to either one or the other, the • By ~- M. R. WISE: Of A. 0. Caven and 73 others, of Derry Station, Committee on Transportation Routes to the Seaboard or the Commit­ and of H. J. Gilmore and 38 others, of Masontown, Pennsylvania. tee on Commerce. 1262 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE. JANUARY 17, ·

The PRESIDENT p1·o tempore. The Committee on Commerce, the the word "thirteen" li'ropo ed to be inserted by said amendment and insert in lieu thereof the word ' fourteen; '' and the Senate agree to the same . Chair suggests. H. G. DAVIS, Mr. DAVIS, of West Virginia. What is the bill? P. B. PLUl\IB, The PRESIDENT pro tentpore. It is to appoint a co:mmission on the EUGENE HALE, subject of interstate commerce. The subject is appropriate for the Managers on the part of the &.nate. Committee on Commerce; and the Chair will refer it to that committee C. C. CARPENTER, J. W. WADSWORTH, unless there is objection. The bill will be referred to the Committee W.H.HATCH, on Commerce. Managers on the part of the Hou.sc. Mr. McDILL asked and, by unanimous consent, obtained leave to in­ :Mr. DAVIS, of West Virginia. I will state for the information of troduce a bill (S. 2381) to establish depositories and provide for the dis­ the Senate that the bill is just as the Senate passed it less 1, 000, there tribution of public documents; which was read twice by its title, and. being a change from $14,000 to $13,000. In all other particulars the referred to the Committee on Printing. House has concurred with the Senate. Mr. COKE asked and, by unanimous consent, obtained leave to in­ The report was concurred in. troduce a joint resolution (S. R. 126) providing for the purchase of skarn­ launches for use in the harbors of GalYeston, Texas, and l\Iobile, Ala­ :MESSAGE FROM THE HOUSE. bama. A message from the House of Representatives, by Ur. McPHER OK, Mr. COKE. I ask for the present consideration of the joint resolution. its Clerk, announced that the House had passed the following bills; in The PRESIDENT pro tempore. It will be read at length for informa­ which it requested the concurrence of the Senate: tion. A bill (H. R. 3123) to amend sections 1, 2, 3, and 10 of an aet to de­ The joint resolution was read the first time at length, as follows: termine the jurisdiction of the circuit courts of the United States, and Resolved by theSenat.e and. House of R_epresert«;U~v es, .&l?·• That the Secre~ary ~f the to regulate the removal of causes from State courts, and for other pur­ Treasury is hereby authonzed and directed, if m his JUdgment the eXIgencies of poses, approved March 3, 1875; and the service require it, to usethe$16,000appropriated by act of August 7, 1882, for A bill (H. R. 7240) for the relief of William H. Donohoe. the construction of steam launches for use in the harbors of Galveston, T exas, and Mobile, Alabama, in the purchase of such launches alrea dy built. POST-OFFlCE APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. EDMUNDS. That is a joint resolution is it not ? The PRESIDENT pro tempo1"e. Ifthere be nofurthermorningbusi- The PRESIDENT pro tempore. It is. ness-- Mr. EDMUND . Then of course it h to be read a second time and Mr. PLUMB. I move that the Senate proceed to the consideration referred. of the bill (H. R. 7049) making appropriations for the service of the The PRESIDENT pro tempm·e. That is the usual way. Joint reso­ Post-Office Department for the fiscal year ending June 30, 1884, and lutionshave to be read a second time and referred. If there is any for other purpo es. objection it will ha>e to take that com e. The PRESIDENT pro tempo1"e. The Senator from Kansas moves to .l\1r. EDMUNDS. It is just like a bill. postpone the Calendar with a view to proceed to the consideration of • Mr. COKE. I suggest that it is a matter of some mgency and should the Post-Office appropriation bill. be acted on at the earliest moment. There was at the last session of Mr. MORGAN. Does the Senator from Kansas expect to press that Congress in the sundry civil act an appropriation made of 16,000 for bill until it is passed? the construction of steam-launches for use in the harbors of Galveston ~1r. PLill1B. I will respond to the inquiry of the Senator from Ala­ and Mobile. Those launches are not yet constructed, and it will be se>­ bama by ·saying that the Committee on Appropriations instructed me eral months before they can be built. to ask for the consideration of the bill this morning, and that it should I haYe here a letter from the collector of custom at Galveston stat­ be continued until disposed of. ing that there i an absolute, pr ing, present necessity there for one of The PRESIDENT pro ternpore. The question is on the motion to these launches. I have also a letter from the chief of the revenue postpone the Calendar. marine ervice stating that it will be some time before the launches can The motion was agreed to--a.yes Z7, noes not counted. be built, and suggesting that judicious purchases can be made in New Mr. PLUM:B. I move that the Senate proceed to the consideration York of launches already constructed. of the Post-Office appropriation bill. The object of the joint resolution is simply to confer upon t.be Secre­ The motion was agreed to; and the Senate, as in Committee of the tary of the Treasury the discretion, if in his judgment the exigencies Whole, proceeded to consider the bill (H. R. 7049) making appropria­ of the service require it, to use thls appropriation in the pmchase of tions for the service of the Post-Office Department for the fiscal year th e latmches rather than to wait for their construction. ending June 30, 1884 and for other .purposes. Mr. EDMUNDS. I have no doubt that the object is a good one, Mr. PLU ~IB. I suggest that the bill be read for the purpo e of act­ otherwi e my friend from Texas would not press it; but there have been ing on the amendments as they are reachedhand that it be understood -o many misfortune. . jnr pect ofpurchasingvesselswhen we had pro­ that the mere formal reading of the bill sha be dispensed with. vided orne other way- orne of which I remember-that I for one feel The PRESIDE~T p1"o tempore. That course will be pursued. The a little en itive on the ubject. Inasmuch as it is really a bill, has all amendments of the Committee on Appropriations will be acted upon ru; the qualities of a bill, I think it would be better for the public interest, they are reached in the reading of the bill. and it need not occa.sion any delay of more than a. day or two, to have Mr. PLUUB. The Pot-Office bill as reported from the Committe it referred to the Committee on Commerce and printed, who can find on Appropriations contains one ortwoitemswhichonghttobeexplained. out from the Treasury Department and examine it and report very Mr. DAVIS, of West Virginia. Before my colleague on the com­ soon. mittee proceeds I desire to say that I was unfortunately absent yester­ Mr. COKE. I ask, then, that the joint resolution be referred to the day when the bill wa considered in committee, and I should like to Committee on Commerce, and that the accompanying papers be referred make a suggestion to him. I desire an explanation.of one item in the with it. bill. I se~ that that part of it relating to the reduction of compensa­ The joint resolution wa read the second time by its title, and, with tion to the land-grant railroads has been stricken out by the committee, the accompanying papers referred to the Committee on Commerce. and that f1> new provision is made of 185,000 for necessary and sp ci..1.l Mr. McDILL asked and, by unanimous consent, obtained leave to in­ facilities to trunk lines of railroad. I should like to know what tha troduce a joint resolution (S. R. 127) providing for the sale of public 185,000 fortrunklines ofrailroadisfor? Itstrikesmefrom theword­ docmnents; which was read twice by its title, and referred to the Commit­ ing of it that it is unfair to all lines which are not trunk lines. It tee on Printing. strikes me further that it is to compensate particular roads, while other AMENDMENT TO POT-ROUTE BILL. roads all over the country will be excluded. I mention that o that Mr. CALL submitted an amendment intended to be propo ed by him my colleague on the committee may explain the matter to the enate. to the post-route bill; which was referred to the Committee on Post­ .Mr. PLU i!B. I will explain in a fewwords the items about which Offices and Post-Road , and ordered to be printed. there may be a controversy, or at all events in which this bill as received JOHN H. RUSSELL .AND HENRY M. RECTOR. from the House contains something in the nature of a- departme from previous Post-Office appropriation bills. · On motion of :Mr. GROVER, it wa. I have in my hand an itemized account of the bill as it is reported, Ordered, That the petition and papers of John H. Russell an~ H enry J . Rec­ compared with the estimates and compared with the appropriations tor, on the files of the Senate, be taken from the files and ~n sm1tted to the Com­ mittee on the Public Lands of the House of Representatives. for the last year : AGRICULTURAL APPROPRIATION BILL. Post-Office appropriation &ill. Mr. DAVIS, of West Virginia, submjtted the following report: .Am.ount of estimates for 1884...... $4.6, 741, 111 2!) The committee of conference on the disagreeing votes of the two Houses on t he .Am.ount of bill as passed the Hou e...... 44, 229, 520 00 amendments of the Senate to the bill (H. R. 7052) making appropriations for the .Am.ount added by the Senate committee...... 210,000 no Agricultural Department of the Government for the fiscal year ending June 30, 1884, and for other purposes, having met, after .full and !ree conference have Total as reported to the Senate...... 44,439,520 00 agreed to recommend, and do recommend, to therr respective Houses as follows: That the House recede from its disagreement to the amendments of the Senate l Amount of appropriations for 1883 ...... 44, 843, 900 00 • numbered 9, 15, 16, and 22 and agree to the same. The h!ll as reported to the Senate less than estima.t~s ~or 1884...... 2,301,591 25 That the House recede from its disagreement to the amendment of the Senate The bill as reported to the Senate less than appropriat1ons for 1883 404, 380 00 numbered 24, and agree to the same with an amendment as follows: Strike out Amount of estimated revenues for 1884...... 50, 670, 456 Zl 1883 . CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE. 1263

.Amount of e timated revenues at 2-cent letter rate ...... $42,670,456 27 Onethingwhich the Postmaster-General encountered in the attempted E timated revenues exceed estimated expenses 1884...... 3, 929, 345 02 Lsiimn.tecl •·c veuue · at 2-cent letter rate less than c tim.ated ex- distribution of the "'600,000 to which I have referred wa the contro­ pens€81&>4...... 4,070,654 98 versy between lines going out of Chicago to Saint Paul and Omaha, Estimated revenues exceed bill as reported ...... ·-························ 6,230, 936 27 there being two lines to Saint Paul and three from Chicago to Omaha. E timated revenues at2-cent letter rate less than bill as reported.. 1,769,063 73 Neither line of railroad was willing that the other should undertake to The increase made to the bill by the Senate committee is for the fol- render the expedited service, beca.u e that would devolve. upon them a lowing purposes, namely : · necessity, connecting itself with their own ordinary business, of ren­ For necessary and special facilities on trunk lines ...... $185,000 dering the same service themselves, and that, too, without compensa­ For transportation by steamboat routes, increase ...... ················- 25,000 tion. As all could not be accommodated, the Postmaster-General did Total...... 210,000 not feel warranted in trying to accommodate any; that is to say, refer­ ring to this as an accommodation to the railroads, which it really is not, The changes in amounts made in the appropriations for 1883 by the he did not contract with any as he could not contract with all. bill as reported to the Senate are as follows : The committee found in this bill as it came from the House the para­ INCREASE. graph which commences on page 3 of the bill which is in terms an For compensation of postmasters ...... uso.ooo For compensation to clerks in post-offices ...... 311>,000 amendment to the Pacific railroad bill, and the effect of which is to For compeus...tion to letter-carriers...... 300,000 assume to modify the original Pacific Railroad charters so that- For wrapping paper...... 3,000 Hereafter the compensation paid or allowed for the carrying and transporta­ For marking and rating stamps...... 5,000 tion of the United States mails by such railroad companies, or their assigns or For letter-balance , test-weights, and scales...... o,ooo successor , shall be fixed by the Postmaster-General, at a rate not exceeding that For office furuitw·e ...... 5,000 fixed by him or allowed by law to other railway companies of the same class to For tationery ...... : ...... 5,000 which the United States have furnished aid by grant of land, right of way, or 045,000 otherwise. ~~~ ~il~~~r~~i~fi{~:a~o:!.:i~~~::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: 49,000 For railway post-office clerks...... 267,1.20 The law under which the Pacific railways were chartered pro.vides 50,000 that they shall have reasonable compensation for such service as they ~~~::J:~:SC:~t~:~~d·p~~~g:k~b:.:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: 29,000 For manufacture of adhesive postage-stamps...... 21,000 shall render to the Government. It seems to have been assumed in the For manufa{)ture of stamped envelopes and newspaper-wrappers...... 85 000 debate which resulted in the adoption of this provision that the reason­ .For manufacture of postal cards...... n:ooo able compensation claimed and allowed to these railroad companies For registered-pac;Jkage envelopes, locks and seals, &c.....•.•...... 30,000 For engraving, printing, and binding drafts and warrants...... 500 was something other and different from the reasonable compensation For transportatton of foreign mails...... 50,000 claimed, allowed, and paid to other railway companies in the United For balances due foreign countries...... 10,000 States. An investigation of the subject at the Po t-Office Department Total increase ...... : ...... 2, 235, 620 disclosed the error in this assumption. The Post-Office Department is REDUCTIO • actually settling with the Pacific railways upon the same basis that it does with all other railways for similar service, paying no attention F&::.u(o~ftt~~f,~~-~~~~~-~~~~~~-~~~-~--~~~-~~~~~~~~.. : $35, 000 whatever to any claims, if there be any, on the part of the railway com­ For rent, light, and fuel...... 10,000 panies for compensation beyond that received by other railway com­ For necessary and special facilities on trunk lines...... 415,000 For transportation by steamboat routes...... 175,000 panies. It was apparent, therefore, to the committee in the first pla~e For transportation by star routes ...... 2, 000, 000 that this is not in effect any saving in the amount to be paid for the For mail iocks and keys...... 5, 000 rendering of this service. . Total reduction ...... 2, G40, 000 Jii the next place the committee thought if it were adopted at all it ought to be amended, but admonished by the ruling of the present oc­ Xet reduction made by bill as reported to the Senate from the appropri- upant of the chair at the last session of Congress that a. substantive ations for 1883 ...... •...... amendment to it would be construed to be new legislation, and thus I will proceed first to explain tho e items in which this bill is a de­ within the rule of exclusion provided by the rules of the Senate, they parture and enters upon subjects which may possibly lead to ntr felt that it would not be proper with their view of the case to have this versy. clause stand as it was, leaving the Senate in that helpless condition in The bill as it came from the House contained no appropria on regard to it. whatever for special mail service. The members of the Senate will In the third place the committee felt that it was entering upon a large recall the faet that last year the appropriation for that led to consid­ and fruitful subject, one which had received the attention of Congress erable controversy, and 600,000 was appropriated for what are known in the consideration and passa~ of what is known as the Thurman bill, as special mail facilities, to be divided among the leading trunk lines in which an adjustment of the relations of the Government to these rail­ in different sections of the country, the intention of the committee and roads had been undertaken in a comprehensive manner, that adjustment of Congress being to distribute those facilities as nearly as possible ac­ now being under consideration and under operation by the United States cording to the needs of the different sections of the country. The Post­ and the railway companies, and the result of which has not yet been master-General entered upon the discharge of the duty that was de­ fully determined. ·..-olved on him by that appropriation, and after a long and thorough In the next place it would be undertaking that upon an appropriation and patient examination of the subject, and interviews with the dif­ bill. While the committee, I think, have not been charged particularly ferent railroad companies as to the service necessary in order to expend with modesty in regard to general legislation upon appropriation bills, properly the money, he found that he could not expend it in such a they thought that would be going at least a little further than any step way as to meet the intention of the law. He therefore did not ex­ which had ever been taken heretofore in the direction of general legis­ pend any of it except the sum of about 185,000. That sum was ex­ lation. And they themselves were unwilling to engage in this subject pended in the increase of facilities which amounted practically to at this time and in this way. expedition on a line from Boston, byway of New York, Philadelphia, There is another thing which also I think had some little weight in Baltimore, and Washington, to Savannah, making at the last named determining the action of the committee, and that is that the Govern­ point a connection for Jacksonville and New Orleans. Perhaps the ment is largely the creditor of all these railroad companies, so largely connection for New Orleans was made at Richmond ; the connection their creditor in fact that grave doubts have been expressed in influen­ 1or J acksouville was made at Savannah. He also expended part of it tial and well informed quarters whether the Government would ever in running a train from New York to Albany to make a connection at receive any payment of the indebtedness of these companies to it; and the latter point with the regular line there that runs to Chicago, in such it being now one of the chief concerns of the Government to get in some a. way as to make a difference of about six hours between New York and way its pay it was not deemed best to embarrass that payment in any Chicago. That was all of the money that was expended and all of the way by establishing a modified or Teduced scale of payment to these additional facilities that were provided for under the last appropriation railway companies, especially when it would be based upon a deduction bill. not applied to other railroad companies; that is to say, giving them an The House, when it came to consider this subject, dropped out the insufficient compensation judging by the rate paid to other companies. entire appropriation. When the bill reached the Senate Committee on In the next place, and for a reason which appeals especially to me as Appropriations there came before that committee persons representing a representative of a State traversed by the road of one of these com­ the merchants of Boston and the various interests which are served by panies, if the Government exacts of these railroads the transportation the special facilities of which I have spoken as now existing, and after of its supplies at a price less than that paid by private shippeiS, that run consideration of the question the committee decided in effect to much must be charged over to the people of the States and Territories recommend an appropriation of sufficient money to continue the service through which these railways run in order that they may receive that a<: it now exists, neither adding to nor taking from it, deeming it un­ reasonable compensation which they may be said to be entitled to. If \\-l. e to diminish any service now existing for which there seemed to be the Government can take away one-haJ.f of course it can take away all. a. considerable demand, and believing also that the service we have is I am not dealing now with the right of the Government or with its a valuable one, not more valuable perhaps than other service which policy in a certain event, but with its policy a applied to the present might he had by the expenditure of money, but a service not only val­ condition of things. If the Government can take away a part of the uable, but one which can be had substantially without controversy; two or three million dollars which it now pays to these railway com­ that is to say, not involving controversy between two different lines of panies for postal and A:rmy service it may take it all away, and there­ ailroad as to which line shall render it. fore compel the people who are served in their individual capacities by 1264 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SEN ATE. JANUARY 17, these railroads to pay just that much more, or at least some portion of amount to the percentage of increase of the revenues which is estimated that addition to what they now pay, in order that these railroads may for the coming year. subsist and pay the :fixed and other charges necessary for their mainte­ Only one increase in regard to an item of administration is made, and nance. that is for inland transportation by steamboat routes. That appropria­ For these reasons the committee deemed it wise to leave out of the bill tion in the bill as it came from the House was 600,000. The commit­ this paragraph. tee have added to that sum by 25,000 upon the statement of the De­ In place of secti.on 3, which was framed with the evident intenti.on of partment that the service as being rendered now would somewhat ex­ ecuring an investi.gati.on of existing methods of transportati.on by rail­ ceed the amount provided for by the House. With that exception the road lines and of the compensati.on for the same, the committee have committee have not added to any item of the bill and have only in erted proposed a substitute, prepared on consultati.on with the post-office au­ one new item of expenditure, the one I spoke of in the opening of.my thoriti.es, which they believe will better accomplish the purpose in view remarks for special facilities npon trunk lines. and which they are assured will result, if not immediately in greater Now, I will say to the Senator from West Virginia that if he tak economy in the transportati.on of the mails, certainly at once in a much any excepti.on whatever to the word "trunk" or to the discrimination better system and very soon in much greater economy in the transporta­ in the character of the railroad lines on which special services shall be tion. rendered I shall be willing to accept any suggestion which he may On page 5, under the general title of ''Office of the Third Assi tant make that leaves the purpose unimpaired. He understands what it is. Postmaster-General,'' the bill contains an item in the nature of legisla­ It is simply to keep up the existing service in that directi.on. tion, inserted by the House, reducing the charge for carrying letters :Mr. DAVIS, ofWest Virginia. I will state to the Senatethatitwill from 3 cents per one-half ounce to 2 cents per one-half ounce, provid­ make no difference what you name it. Two of tb.e great companies of ing, however, that the reduction shall take effect on the 1st day of J anu­ this country get the whole of this money, $185,000, theNew York Central ary, 1884. This is what is popularly known as 2-cent postage. After and the Pennsylvania Central. It makes no difference in what way due cansiderati.on the committee determined to change the date and to you name them I think the whole expenditure goes to tho e two com­ have this reduction of postage take effect ou the 1st clay of July next, pani and other companies, who are just as deserving and who would the beginning of the fiscal year. do more service to the community at large if the amount wa nior The estimated revenues of the Po t-Office Department for the coming equally and properly divided, get nothing. Iprefergivingnothing and year upon the ba is of existing charges for transportation of mail mat­ let the commercial community of all the cities stand on the same foot­ ter are $50,670,456.27. That is upon the ba is of an increa e of 10 per ing and not give special benefits to one particular city. cent. over the revenues of the la t year. The revenues of last year .My colleague on the committee will notice that each one of th e were a little more than 10 per cent. over the revenues of the year pre­ line · tarts from New York and tarts over two roads and two roads ceding, and the Department believe that that is a safe estimate, and in only, and the city of New York and those two roads get the whole of fact that the estimate will be somewhat exceeded by the result. Upon the 185,000. the basis, however, of a reducti.on of letter postage from 3 cents to 2, lr. PLU IB. The Senator is mistaken in regard to that. there will be a nominal diminution in the receipts from that source of Ir. COCKRELL. When that :first mail-train leaves New York, how about ,550,000, the total receipts from 3-cent postage being for the far does itgoin advance of the train that leaves at the ordinary time in last year $25,660,000. The expen es of the Department by the bill as the morning? How far is it until the train that leaves in the morning it is now before the Senate are 44,439 520. The esti.mated revenues overtakes it? for the same period, upon the basis of exiting charges, as I said a Mr. PLUMB. I do not understand that it overtakes it at all. I have moment ago are 50,670,456.27 aud at the reduced charge for letter a. I tter here which was written to two members of the House and which postage will be 42,670,456.27, provided the reduction in revenue cor­ was before the Committee on Appropriations, a letter written by 1\lr. responds with the reduction in mte. That would leave a deficiency Thompson, uperintendent of the railway mail service, which I ask to upon that basis of calculation of "'1 769 063.73, a omewhat modest de­ haYe read, which will answer the inquiry of the Senator from Mis ouri ficiency, it will be borne in mind, comparerl ,,;th some that we have as also the objecti.onofthe Senator from West Virginia, morefullythan been accustomed to during the pa t few years. The committee belieYe anything I can state. that the reduction of po tage will not be followed by a cmT ponding The Acting "ecretary read as follow : reduction in revenue; that a very considerable number of letters now ' Po T-0FFICE DEPARTliiENT, transmitted unsealed under existing rates will be transmitted a e..

within the next sixty days will be m ore important than they ever were before, mast-er, they could be rectified at the other end of the line at the expense-of the­ from the fac~ that an additional link of road is being completed west of Bain­ addressee. Only on the refusal of the addressee, or the failure to- find him ~ did. bridge, Georgia, so that it will have a continuous and direct conneCtion to New the matter come to the dead-letter office. Orleans, Louisiana, where it will make direct connection for all of the Texas From motives of sound policy prepayment in full is required for third and. roads through to Laredo, on the Rio Grande, between Tex.as and the Republic fourth class matter. It would scarcely be wise to abandon that principle )lnder of Mexico. any circUIILStances whatever. Under a system of optional prepayment many This arrangment if continued, would give a train leaving Boston at 7 p. m. articles embraced within the designation of third and fourth class matter would (after the arrival of all the evening lines at Boston), arriving at New York at 4 from their very nature be refused by the addressee if he were called upon to ~ a. m.; Philadelphia at 7 a. m.; Washington, 11 a. m.; Richmond, 8 p. m.; the postage on them, and the Department would not only suffer the loss of trans­ Oharleston, the second morning, at 6a. m.; Savannah, 10.80 a.m.; .Jacksonville, porting them, but would be put to the expense of finally disposing of them. Jf 4.80 p. m.; and New Orleans, the third morning, at 9 a. m.; and in addition to a package deposited in a post-office for mailing should furnish a clue to the name ·that continue the city distributers on the trains that leave Boston, also New of the sender it would be the duty of the postmaster to call on him for any defi­ York, at lOp. m. i so thatthismail will be delivered by the first carriers' delivery ciency of postage; if without such clew the only recourse would be to send the .except when trams are late. I am clearly of the opinion that it would make a package to the dead-letter office, with the chances largely against its ultimate -very perfect service and one that would satisfy your people. restoration. These instances would not be of infrequent occurrence, as it is not I think it very important for the interests of New England and the coast-line reasonable to expect that the public would be sufficiently well informed to act ..cities that this appropriation should be made and the service continued: other­ intelligently upon a scheme of charges graded by distances. Indeed, in the light wise Boston's connection with the SOuth after the 1st of .July will be about rut of experience, it may well be doubted whether as a rule postmasters could be .follows: depended upon to exercise the intelligence and care necessary to a proper exe­ Leave Boston, 10.80 p.m.; leave New York the next day at 8.15 a.m.; arrive cution of such a scheme. In any event this plan would very largely increase the ..at 'Vashington at 5 p.m.; remain at Washington until the next day at 7 a. m.; labor of postmasters, and greatly swell the volume of matter coming to the d.ead­ thence going South on a slow train that stops at all way stations. This you letter office. will see will be a very slow and unsatisfactory schedule. In a letter addressed by me to the Speaker of the House of Representatives., If I have not made t-his clear, and there are any other points upon which you under dat.e of May 18l1882, I expressed the opinion that the cost of handling and .desire information, I will only be too glad to give you all the ini"ormation that it transportingfourth-c assmatterexceededthe revenue derived from that matter. .is possible for me to do. That was the opinion which at that time, and for a period long previous to thai Very rt'Spectfully, time, had obtained in the Department. I fear I accep~ed it without due consid­ W. B. THOMPSON, eration. I accepted ·it because it was the opinion of those most familiar with General Superintendent. the service, and because it seemed most plausib~. It seemed to me inevitable. Hons. A. A. RA...>a"'EY and LEOPOLD MoRSE, that while the Government had one fixed rat.e for all distances, and at the 88d11e House of Repre.sentaUve~. time the express companies were at liberty to transport the same matter, and were actually doing so, at a tariff of rates adjusted according to distance, they l.Ir. PLUMB. It will be'proper for me to say at this point that the would carry the matter over all distances where our fixed rate would yield a -committee considered a question which was discussed when a similar profit, and leave the mails to be carded over such di tances as our rate would entail a loss. I am not sure either that the opinion was correct, or that the rea-­ bill was under consideration a year ago, in regard to the cost and proper soning was sound. Tht? fact remains that there are more post-offices than ex­ charge for carrying fourth-class matter. They addressed a communica­ press agencies; consequently, that the mail reaches a great many localities which tion to the Postmaster-General upon the subject with a view, if it should the express companies do not visit. From this, or from some other cause, il seems pretty evident that the bulk of the fourth-class matter carried in the maihl ·.be found prMticable, of increasing the charge upon certain portions of is not carried over the longest distances but over shorter distances. By my di­ the fourth-class matter carried in order to make up some of the appar­ rection an actual count was made in the New York post-office of fourth-class ent deficiency which would be created byreasonofthereductionoflet­ parcels dispatched from that office for the twenty-four hours beginning at mid­ night of November 10, last. The whole number of such parcels was 24,446. Of ter postage. In reply to the inquiry the letter which I send to the desk these 18,145, or 72.2 per cent., were sent less than 1,000 miles; 4,886, or 20 per cent., to be read was received. were sent more than 1,000 and less than 2,000 miles; 898, or 8.6 per ceut., were In addition to the conclusion at which the Postmaster-General has sent more than 2,000 miles and less than 3,000 miles. Only517 parcels, or 2.1 per cent. w ere sent over 3,000 miles. I have no reason to believe that the da7 on :arrived, which was a surprise not only to him but to the committee as which that count was taken was other thana representative day of the busmesa well, it was thought advisable not to interfere at all with this class of transactions at that office. postal matter, either in regard to the charge for carrying or in regard Besides, these results are in harmony with the facts reported from the same office to the Second A.ssi tant Postma-ster-General under date of the 28th ofOcto­ to the facility of carriage which should be extended to it, until the re­ ber, last. That report gives the weight of fourth-class matter dispatched from port of the commission provided for in this bill should be had, by which the New York office for one week ending on that day. The total weight was time we expect tO have such information as will enable Congress to ad, 11,606 pounds. Of that 4,664 pounds were addressed to Buffalo and points east; 3,770 pounds were sent to point-s west of Buffalo and east of Chicago; 864 pounds if at all, with precision. Therefore that question which has been made were sent to points west of Chicago and east of Oma ha, and 2,308 pounds to points t.he subject of considerable discussion was left to stand exactly as it is west of Omaha and east of San J.'rancisco. In other words, 40 per cent. of the by existing law. total weight did not go beyond Buffalo, a distance of 442 miles from New York; while 72.48 per cent. did not go beyond Chicago, a distance of 984 miles from I now ask the Secretary to read this letter. I think, however, that New York. Eighty per cent. of the same class of matter stopped at Omaha, or I will simply ask that it be printed in the RECORD and not detain the points east of Omaha, which is distant 1,484 miles. ·senate to hear it read. The influence of distance upon the amount of fourth-class matter sent by ma.ii is illustrated by the fact that 20 per cent. of the whole weight dispatched from ?tlr. COCKRELL. I should like to hear it read. New York that week went to points west of Omaha, while 95 per cent. of the llr. PLUMB. Very well; let the Secretary read it. population is located east of that point. The Acting Secretary read as follows: The superintendent of railway adjustments estimates that the cost of trans­ PosT-OFFICE DEPARTMENT, porting the mails on railwa ys, calculate d upon the basis of5,000 pounds per day, Washimgton, D. 0., January 15, 1888. 1S 11.92 cents per pound. . The mail is transported in part over railways, in part on water, and for the Sm: I have the honor to acknowledge the receipt of a lett-er addressed to me residue over what are known as " star routes." During the last fiscal year the -under date of December 26, 1882, by the clerk of the Committee· on Appropria­ a ggregate number of miles over which the m ail was carried by the two la&" tions, asking on behalf of your sub-committee the views of this Department upon methods was 80,906,385. While the existing contracts la-st, that portion of the car­ .t he subject of "reducing the deficiency which will follow a reduction of letter riage of fourth-class matter costs the Government nothing, as it is well known it postage * * * by rearranging third and fourth class mail matter in such a is carried on such routes at a stipulated price without regard to bulk. On rail­ manner as to save the United St.ates from the loss consequent on carrying for ways alone is the compensation for carrying the mail adjusted according to the long distances, and at the same time prevent the express companies from taking weight. It is not practicable to ascertain what it costs per pound to carry the from us in transiWrting for short distances those things that pass as fourth-class mails on railways, since the rate per pound varies on difterent roads according mail matter." to the total weight carried. According to a calculation m ade in the office of the Your committee evidently contemplate the idea of regulating the charges on general superintendent of the railway mail service on a road which carries an small parcels of merchandise according to the distance to which they are to be average of 200 pounds per day, the present postage charge of 16 cents per pound conveyed. That would seem to be the only possible way in which to avoid will carry one pound 273! miles; on a roa d which carries 500 pounds one pound losses for carrying long distances, and at the same time to furnish inducements would go 388! miles: on a road which carries 1,000 pounds p er day one pound to the public for patronizing the mail l'ervice rather than the express companies would go 673 miles; on a road which carries 1,500 pounds per day one pound would for short distances. Such a scheme would tend to accomplish the object sought go 820 miles; on a road which carries 3,500 poun ds per day one pound would go by your committee, since by far the largest element in the cost of conducting 1,366 miles; and on aroadwhi6'hcarries7,000polmds perda yon epound would go the postal service is that of transportation. The scheme is equitable in princi­ 5, ~ miles. It is obvious that if the Government has but one rate for carrying ple, and I have been inclined to favor it; but upon close examination I fear its merchandise, while express companies have rate s graduated according to dis­ execution would be attended with difficulties that would prove almost insur­ tance, if the Government rate should be raised the effect of that increase would mountable. These difficulties grow maiuly out oftbe great magnitude of the pos­ be to exclude this class of matter from a larger extent of territory which is served ·tal service. The service is spread over a vast area of territory; it embraces by express companies, and at the same time impoee the additional burden upon ft.bout47 ,000 post-offices, and at the close of the last fiscal year it employed 12,295 the communities which are not visited by the express companies. different lines of transportation, aggregating 343,618 miles in length, and on After the fullest consideration which I have been able to give to the subject, which 194,901,703 miles of service were performed during the year. In view of with such meager data as I can now obtain, I am not prepared to advise t~.n in­ the wide extent of our territory there would have to be many variations in the creased rate on fourth-class matter. If some feasible way could be found for grad­ rates ; and it would be necessary not only that each postmaster should be in­ uating rates according to distance, or if it w ere thought expedient by Congress formed as to the specific charges for given distances, but that he should be fur­ to monopolize the carriage of fourth-class matte r, as the carriage of first-class nished with some means of determining the distance to any other post-office. It matter is monopolized, I am inclined to the opinion that the great bulk of mer­ would certainly be impracticable to furnish each postmaster with a list of dis­ chandise which we now carry might be carried at a less rate than is now charged, tances to all the other post-offices, and a list of distances between the principal and with more profit to the service. post-offices would hardly serve the purpose. I have the honor to be, &c., The plan of cha.rging according to distance is not new it having been adopted 1 T. 0. HOWE, Postm.aster-G~meral. when our service was founded; but sq many difficulties were encounte red in Hon. P. B. PLUMB, carrying it into practical effect, and it was productive of so much dissatisfaction C hai1'1nan Sub-(]()mmiltee .on Appropriations, e n the part of the public, that by successive acts of Congress, all g.-adually tend­ ing toward that end, it was finally abandoned in 1863, and uniform rates were United States Senate. established for all distances. l\Ir. PLUMB. I ask now that the bill be read, for amendment. The difficulties previously encountered in carrying this pla.Jl'linto operation The Principal Legislative Clerk proceeded to read the hill. The first would be largely increased by the new matter since admitted into the mails, and by the greater proportions to which the service has attained. The difficulties would amendment reported by the Committee on Appropriations was to strika be still further increased by the changed conditions with respect to the manner out the following proviso from lines 62 to 77 : of paying postage. Formerly prepayment was optional; and if by design or . accident the postage was not prepaid, either in whole or in part, the matter was Pr()'f)ided, That for the better a-ecomplishment of the obje'bts of the actsauthoriz.... forwarded and the postage collected at the office of destination. The postmaster ing the construction of the railroads hereinaft-er referred to, and the bette.r to S~r ..at the mailing office had no other duty than simply to forward the matter. Ifmis- cure to the Government the use and benefit of the same, the acts authorizmg the takes were made through the ignorance of the sender or of the mailing po~ l building anli construction of those railroads which have received, in ad~ion t.- XIV-80

I . 1266 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD- SENATE. JANUARY 17, land grants, Government aid by the loan or guarantee of bonds by the United that it pays to the other railroad companies, that is, if it dealt with States and all other acts, parts of acts, and provisions having relation thereto, are hereby so altered, amended, and modified that hereafter the compensation paid them on the same basis and had no other reln.tions to them than it had or allowed for the carrying and transportation of the United States mails by such to other i:ailway companies, it might not be conclush·e, because the railroad oompanies, or their assigns or successors, shall be fixed by the Postmas­ Government would have the right perhaps to say that it would mak& te~neral, at a rate not exceeding that fixed by him or allowed by law to other railway companies of the same class to which the United States have furnished a cheap bargain even if it did work an imposition of a higher rate upon aid by grant of land, right of way, or otherwise. some private person. But in this case the Government relation to­ these railway companies is modified by the fact that these companies Mr. DAVIS, of West Virginia. I ask the Senator who has charge owe it large sums of money which they are not paying and which a of the bill, and who understands this provision much better than I do, good many people, as I said before, believe they will not be able to pay, to explain it. I was unfortunate enough to be absent from the Com­ or at least will not pay; and therefore what the Government pays ro mittee on Appropriations when the bill was considered there. If I do them is not full value, as it would be if the money was appropriated understand this cln.use, it is a. reduction of the amount paid to rail­ out of the Treasury. I do not regard it worth while to enter in this roads that have received subsidies from the Government by way of irrCooular and to some extent reprehensible way and at this time and loans of bonds. Am I right in that? place, upon the regulation of that, even ifwe should thereby save nom­ :Mr. PLUMB. It assumes to reduce the compensation, but it is not inally a little something to the Government, which after all would an actual reduction. only be a saving in the book-keeping or in the ink with which the en­ Mr. DAVIS, ofWestVirginia.. I should beglad to hear whyitisnot. tries were made of credit upon the books of the Treasury Department~ Mr. PLUMB. I stated that the compensation now allowed to the The whole ma.tter, therefore, looked upon as a matter of money, from Pacific railroads was precisely that a.llowed to other railroads in the my standpoint, is wholly inconsequential. From the standpoint of the United States. In other words the Post-Office Department treats them reln.tions which we occupy to these railroads, and which we may mod­ precisely as it treats other railroads. With respect to that which they ify by legislation, as I have no doubt we may, considering the place :have claimed under the provision oftheir charter, that they sha.ll have and the time in which it is assumed to be done, I think it is a matter reasonable compensation, tl{e Department pays them just what it pays of considerable moment. Therefore I am led to indorse the action of other railroads-a. reasonable compensation-and consequently the allow­ the committee in saying that this is not the place to determine what ance made to the Pacific railroad companies is precisely the same paid we shall do in relation to these railroad companies about the carrying to the Baltimore and Ohio, the Pennsylvania. Central, and a.ll other of the mails or anything else; and in the next plaee that it is not worth :railroads in the United States. • while to enter upon a doubtful domain when there is absolutely noth­ Mr. DAVIS, of West Virginia.. 'rhen why strike out the proviso? ing in money to be gained by it. If this confirms by law what the Postmaster-General is now doing, 111r. INGALLS. Can the Senator having charge of the bill inform us. and there are some doubts about his authority, why strike it out? what is the rate now fixed or allowed by law to other railway companies :M:r. PLUMB. In the first place, I think the question would be much designated in lines 75, 76, and 77 of the part propo ed to be stricken fairer to ask why put it in. Why assume to exercise a. power and au­ out? thority which, if proper to be exercised legally, rea.lly accomplishes Mr. PLUMB. It is the same rate as is allowed to all other railway nothing? companies, less, I think, a reduction of 10 per cent. Mr. DAVIS, of West Virginia. My colleague on the committee will :Mr. INGALLS. Then if the proviso between lines 62 and 'Tl were understand that I only wanted information. He asks why do an idle retained the result would be an aggregate reduction on certain lines oi thing? I agree with him that we should not do an idle thing. So far 10 per cent. from the amount now a.llowed by the Postmn.ster-General. as that is concerned he and I do not di.saoaree; but I understand that this Mr. PLUMB. Provided the legislation should be held to be effective clause proposes to confirm by law what is now done by the present Post­ and accomplish anything, it would accomplish that. master-General. So I understand from the Senator, though I did not The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The question is on agreeing to the think so previously. If that be so, why not let this clause stand so that amendment to strike out the proviso from line 62 to line 77 inclusive. any future Postmaster-General may have ln.w for his action instead of The amendment was agreed to. going upon an assumption of what is right in regard to this matter? Mr. PLUMB. T next amendment proposed by the committee is :Mr. PLUMB. So far as that is concerned, of course whatever I may not to take the place f w at has been stricken out, buii at the same say about this matter is argumentative, except the statement of faet as time it occurs in the b t this particular point. to what the Postmaster-General is now doing. If the Senator will ex­ The reading of the b was resumed, amine it carefully he will ascertain that this is entering into a very im­ The next amendment of the Committee on Appropriations was, afte portant subject.. It is an assumed modification of the charters of these line 79, to insert: railroad companies. I do not say they ought not to be modified; I do For necessary and speda.l facilities on trunk lines, $185,000. not say they ought not to be repealed. I am not going to say that they Mr. MAXEY. Congress began several years ago to make appropri­ ought not to carry all the mails of the United States for nothing. I a.m ations like this for special mail fn.cilities on trunk lines, but it was found only sn.ying that it is a. question of such IDaoiYDitude and of such impor­ practically that about all the benefit which resulted from that appro­ tance as involving our relations heretofore fixed by what the Supreme priation went to t.he city ofNew York and to lines running out from. O:mrt has said to be a contract, that I think we ought not to enter upon that place. Last year the Senate amended the House bill in such a man­ it on an appropriation bill. ner as to require an equitable distribution of this appropriation so that Mr. DAVIS, of West Virginia.. I do not wish to detain the Senate, the whole country should have the benefit of these special mail fa.cili­ bnt this subject was discussed very thoroughly in the House, and I ties, and I believe the amount of $600,000 was appropriated; but not­ understand it was believed by the committee to be a considerable re­ withstm:lding that provision in the act the benefit resulted 3.oaain only to duction, and upon that theory the House adopted the proviso. I do the city of New York and lines running out from there. The country not know what the Postmaster-General has said upon this subject, but west of the Mississippi River did not get the benefit of that appropri­ it occurs to me that it is a reduction of the cost of carrying the mail, ation. I find that at this time the appropriation is reduced to $185,000. and only puts the railroad companies who received bonds in aid of the My judgment about it is that the people of the whole country are­ construction of their roads on a footing with all other roads and with just as much entitled to mail facilities as the people of the city of New individuals. Why should not that be done? The Senator answers York, and unless these facilities reaeh out to the whole country there that it is now being done. That is probably the case. Of course it is ought to be no appropriation of this kind. I think this amendment put if he says so; I take that for granted. Although it is now being done, in by the Senate Committee on Appropriations ought to be stricken out. some future Postmaster-General may believe that he has no authority Mr. BUTLER. I think the Senator is mistaken in saying that the to do it, and may not do it; and I think it would be better to retain the only part of the country deriving any benefit from this service is the proviso. However, I have no special argument to make about it. I city of New York. think it would be wise for the Senate to retain the provision. It cer­ Mr. MAXEY. And lines reaching from it. . tainly would make a law, and would direct the Postmasters-General in Mr. BUTLER. It so happens that one of these fast mails runs from future as to what is now uncertain as to their authority. this point to Charleston and from Charleston to Jacksonville, which has Mr. PLUMB. There is one further consideration in reference to been of very great service to the people of my section of the country, what the Senator from West Virginia has said, or what is implied in and I therefore trust that the amendment of the committee will not be­ what he has said. I do not regard it myself as being a matter, in the stricken out. It is of the very last consequence to the people of my present st::l.te of the case, of a great deal of moment whether the proviso part of the country that the appropriation of $185,000 shall be retained. reduces the pay or not, or whether it confirms by law what the Post­ I have a statement from the superintendent of the railway mail service master-General is now doing, for two reasons. As I said, I think this which shows that the appropriation for this purpose has been distrib­ is not the proper place to enter upon a discussion of so delicate and dif­ uted from New York to Albany and from Boston and from New Y'Ork ficult 'aDd at the same time so important a question and one which has to Charleston and to Jacksonville, Florida, and also from Springfield, been so recently the subject of exhaustive discussion and of somewhat Massaehusetts, to New York, as I now remember. drastic enactment by Congress. The other reason is, that if it were Mr. ALLISON. We can not hear, Mr. President. itself to reduce the pay, manifestly if the Government is to get its car­ The PRESIDENT pro tempore. It is very difficult to keep order to­ rying of the mail 01··other matter at less than individun.ls pay, individ­ day. uals then ~ust pay more, and, as I am willing to admit, if the Govern­ Mr. BUTLE.R. I was simply saying that I hope the amendment of . ment were paying the money to these railway companies upon a basis the committee will be sustained. 1883. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE. 1267

Mr. MAXEY. I never have believed in making fish of one and flesh conflicts between the various railroads aloDg those lines were of such n of another. I believe that the people west of the :Mississippi River who character that he was unable to do it. He then sought from Saint Louis aid in supporting this Government and who constitute now a very large to reach the great lines running to the southwest through Arkansas. proportion of the population of the United States, are just as much en- and the Indian country and the Union and Central Pacific and Kansas titled to the benefit of mail facilities as the people in the city of New Pacific roads, but he did not seem to meet with much better success. York or anywhere east of the Mississippi We do not get them, and it I know he came before the Committee on Appropriations several times is not just, it is not fair that we should be required to pay taxes for the and told us the trials and tribulations he had in endeavoring to ac­ bene.fi.t of other people and receive no corresponding benefit for our own complish our object. The real difficulty in the way was that he could people. not give the service to one large line of railway without the other roads M.r. BUTLER. I say to the enator from Texas very frankly that if cutting rates against that road, and he could not give it to all. The t.he people of the West have not received those facilities to which they. co~peting lines there inter!'ered with him so that he could not d? any­ are entitled (and I admit that they are. en~tled to just such facili_ties;as t~g at all. Tak~ the Chica~ and No~western, ~d the ~hicago, other portions of the country), if he will mtroduce an amendment g~v- lli~waukee an?- Samt ~~Ill R.all:oads, runnmg almost side by side from ing them the benefit of these facilities, I will take very great pleasure Chicag~ to Mmneapolis and Saint Paul. He could mak~ no arrange­ in voting for it and supporting it. I have no desire whatever to dis- ment Wit~ one of those roads that the other would not resist, and there criminate arrainst the West so far as I am concerned. was the difficulty. Mr. MAllY. I will s~te to the Senator from South Carolina that Ur. MAXEY. So far as tlie roads from Saint Louis to the southwest we did do just that thing at the last session of Congress. We put in an are concerned th~t objection does not apply, for the whole line is under amendment which we thought would be effective, requiring an equita- one control pradically. ble distribution of the amount which was then largely increased by the Mr. BECK. Perhaps so; but at any rate the objection proved fatal. Senate over the House appropriation, up to I think $600,000. We were met with this q"!lestion in the sub.committee the other day. Mr. DAVIS, of West Virginia. It was $600,000. If we abandoned the service altogether, as the House seemed dispo ed Mr. MAXEY. We put a special_ cl~_use in the act that the amount ~o do and as t~e Senator f:om Texas t~ oug~t.t<_> be done, we should appropriated should be equitably distributed so as to accommodate the m the mean time be cuttn;•g off established fucilities that are of great Tarious commercial centers. Saint Louis is, I believe, the fourth city in benefit to a very large section of the country. We have cut the appro­ the American Union, and the people of Saint Louis, Galveston, San priation down from $600,000 and recommended $185,000 now so as not Antonio, San Francisco and Omaha and other great points westofthe abruptly to destroy the fast line running from Boston, New York, and Misissippi River, are just as much entitled to the benefit ofspecialmail Washington to Charleston and Savannah and extending on to New facilities as the people east of that river. We do not get them. We Orleans. By allowing that line to run on at the present rnte it enables. did not get them when we put in the veryamendmentwhich the Serra. gentlemen from Boston, for example, who have been here giving their tor from South Carolina nowspeaksabout. As long as I am a member views before our committee, to get their mails delivered at 11 o'clock of the Post-Office Committee, I shall oppose anything of this kind which in the morning, instead of at 5 in the afternoon. The g~·eat facilities. makes fish of one portion of the community and flesh of another. afforded are exhibited by the letter which has been read at the desk;, :Mr. BUTLER. Then I suggest to my friend from Texas that the and they extend from Washington clear on to Charleston, Savannah, remedy he has would be to hold the Post-Office Department to account. and New Orleans. While we are endeavoring to cut this service down,. That is his remedy. I can not see the force of the position which the I do not feel authorized to cut off that line abruptly; but the commit­ Senator from Texas takes when he permits the Postmaster-General to go tee recommend this amendment as an additional. section at the end of on without rebulm or without accountability and attempts to deprive the bill: that portion of the country which is now getting the benefit of these SEc. 3. That the Postmaster-General is hereby directed t<> make a thorough :tacili ties, of them. It seem:s to me that his proper remedy would be to investigation into the railway mail service of the United States, and for that pur- pose may designate not to exceed three competent officers of the Post-Office De­ call .upon the Post-Office Department to know why they have not made partment, experienced in mattersrelatin~to the transportation of mails on rail· an equitable distribution of the $600,000 appropriated for this purpose. r<;>n.d rou~es, and the syst~m of compensatmg for the same, as a commission to so Mr. MAXEY. I can reply to that in an instant. The House did aid him that he may deVISe and report to Congress, in December next, with the trive the rebuke and the pr""''"" rebuke which ~~ Post-O=ce Den<>...t- data upo!l which it .is based: a. more comp~ete system of gauging the rates of pay o-- """"""" J..UJ ~ v- for carry1ng the mails on railroad routes, m order to secure the better protection ment ought to have had. The appropriation w not distributed ac- of the interests of the Government, and the allowance of just rates of compensa.­ cording to the spirit of the 1aw, and the resu1 t as that the House re- tion for the service required; and he is authorized to expend not to exceed 10 000 out of the appropriation for t.he transportation of mails to compensate the c~m­ fu._c;ed to put in this bill any appropriation whatever for this purpose, missioners for their specific services, and for clerk-hire, and expenses involved and there is where it ought to stand. which sum shall be immediately available. ' Mr. McMILLAN. I should like to ask the Senator from Texas if it We were advised by the Post-Office officials that if that were done they was not on account of the refusal of the railroad companies to comply could in course of a year or two make a new readjustment which would with the terms prescribed by the Post-Office Department, and not the beequitabletoall, and which wouldsavetheGovernmentalargeamount fault of the Post-Office Department that this distribution was not made? of money and make a proper readjustment of the lines of road over which Were not the purposes of the Post-Office Department defeated by the the mails have to run, and the speed at which they should run; and in action of certain of the railroads? the mean time, as this great line extends a.long the seaboard from Boston Mr. MAXEY. This appropriation of $185,000 is practically to all to New Orleans, it furnishes facilities the cutting off of which would be intents and -purposes a donation of that much to the railroads. Last very severe. We thought that while this investigation was being made year when the question came up, as is well recollected by the Senator under the provision in the bill that I have read, we should allow this .from West Virginia [Mr. DAVIS] and the Senator from Kentuch"Y [.Mr. line to continue rather than to upset and upturn all the existing accom­ BECK], it was shown that sixty odd thousand dollars which j nstl y and modation on this one line. rightly belonged to the general railroad service, the distribu1iion of I thought that was a reasonable proposition, and I shall so vote now, the mails for the general railroad service had been used. After the although I agree with the Senator from Texas that unless some means appropriation for special. mail fa-cilities had been exhausted, New York is devised to make the service equitable all over the country I shall not had not J?;Ot as mnch a.c; they wanted New York to get, and there was vote to continue special facilities in one section over another; but it given to .Mr. Vanderbilt's line sixty-odd thousand dollars that belonged seems almost too hard to cut off at once all the special facilities. We honestly to the general railroad mail service throughout the United make a reduction from "'600,000 to 185,000, allowing this one line to States. remain as it is now established, and the taking off of which would re- This $185,000 is simply a donation for the benefit of the railroads suit in serious inconvenience to the people all the way from Boston to leading out of New York, and for the benefit of what are called the New Orleans along the seaboard, until we can see ifwecanmake anew metropolitan papers going from there, and is of no service whatever to adjustment. Feeling very much as the Senator does, I am not quite­ the great mass of the American people who have this tax to pay. The prepared to go at this moment where he is prepared to go. House of Representatives was right when it struck it out, and that was Mr. COCKRELL. The Senator from Kentucky said that the com­ a condemnation of the Post-Office Department which came justly from mittee was cutting down this appropriation from $600,000. As I under- the House, and I 1n·opose to stand by it. stand we did not expend that appropriation at all. Mr. BECK. Last year, after a full conference with the Senator from Mr. PLUMB. No doubt that is a very interesting conversation; but Texas and other gentlemen who ·think as he and I do, that these mat- if it is, it ought to be heard on this side of the Chamber. ters ought to be fairly and equitably adjusted or that we ought to stop Mr. COCKRELL. I said that the Senator from Kentucky stated these fast-mail facilities, so called, when they become partial, weal- that the committee was cutting down tills appropriation from ~600,000 lowed 600,000, inserting in the body of the bill the provision the Sen- to 185,000. Now I askwhetherthat$600,000hadeverbeen expended ator from Texas has just quoted, that it should be equitably distributed at all, and whether this $185,000 is not as great an appropriation as has to a-ccommodate the various commercial centers. It became apparent actually been expended heretofore. to us all then that we should have to increase that amount somewhat Mr. BECK. It is nothing like what has been expended heretofore~ in order to reach the object fully, but we saw that that would be a good but it is as much as was expended of the appropriation made last year, starting place. because of the failure to accomplish what the Postmaster-General and The Postmaster-General, as I am advised, ende..wored faithfully to Congress earnestly desired should be accomplished. execute the act of Congress. He went to Chicago and he endeavored :Mr. COCKRELL. Thenthisis simplytheamountthatwasexpended to havethosefucilitiescarried uptoSaintPauland Minneapolis; hutthe last year? 1268 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE. J ANUAR.Y 17,

11-Ir. BECK. Simplytheamountexpendedlastyear, becausethePos~ :Mr. PLUl\IB. Oh, no. The Senator from 1\Iissouri has got either master-General did not expend the moneyweauthorizedhim to expend, his geography or his facts wonderfully mixed up, or both. He was having failed to make the arrangements we authorized him to make talking at first about a 12 o'clock train going south, and now he is with the railroads. · talh.Tig about a 12 o clock train going west, and there is none. The Senator from :Missouri is a member of the Committee on Appro­ 1\Ir. COCKRELL. There is one going in each direction about the priations as well a-s myself, and he heard a good deal of this discussion. same hour. • The letters which have been read from the desk explain why this one 1\Ir. PLilliB. Going to Chi~IYQ? route is sought to be maintained at present until we can see-what can be Mr. COCKRELL. Yes, sir. ·done hereafter, and I would rather (having confessedly no great famil­ !IT. PLUlt.ffi. Not at all. iarity with the subject) that the Senator from Missouri would look at :Mr. COCKRELL. The Pennsylva.nia Hailroad. train which leaves that letter which has been put in the RECORD by being read this morn­ .New York about 12 o'clock, and which takes all the mail up to thM ing, and say if he does not think there is good reason in continuing it hour, gets into Chicago before your fast mail train in the morning. .at least for a time, until we seG whether a better adjustment can be l\IT. PLUMB. Weare talking about an entirely different train; we made. That is all I care to say. are talking about the train which leaves New York on the New York Mr. COCKRELL. I was not a member of the sub-committee which Central Railroad, and not about the train which departs from New had this bill in charge. I will a k some other Senator, in the course York on the Pennsylvania road. There is no pay to the Pennsylvania fthis discussion, to explain what I asked the Senat.or in charge of the Railroad Company for its train. The Pennsylvania Railroad Company, bill to explain, and which that letter does not explain-what is the as the Post-Office Department assures us, declined to continue the serv­ benefit of this service? These fast-mail trains leaveNew York about 4 ice at the price the Post-Office Department had before been paying, -0'elock in the morning; how many letters do they carry? and the price only which it can afford to pay for the service rendered. 1\Ir. BECK. They bring all the Boston mail of the night before. The amount paid for the service of which I speak is a trifle, only $25,000, 1.-Ir. COCKRELL. They leaveNew York at 4o'clock in the morning; I think. now, what mail matter do they take outofNewYork? They takeout Mr. SAULSBURY. To what road? :t.he mail which i brought in from Boston. Mr. PLUMB. TheNew YorkCentral. That is only for the servico 1\Ir. BUTLER. Leaving Boston at 7 o'clock on the evening before. between New York and Albany. The remaining portion is paid on 1\Ir. PLUMB. They take out all the mail that is deposited in New the line from Boston to Savannah. York between 6 o'clock the evening before and this period of 4.30 in 1\Ir. BUTLER. I have some special interest in the fast mail from the morning, at which time the fast train departs, besides the news­ the points south, particularly from here to Wilmington and Charleston, J>apers which are printed in the morning at about 3 or 4 o'clock. and hearing that this appropriation had been left out in the House, I Mr. BECK. And all the Bost.on mail which left there the night addressed a note to the superintendent of therailwaymail service, mak­ !before. ing SOJ?e inquiries about it. I should like to have his letter read iA Mr. PLUMB. Itinclutles not only the maildepositedinBostonand reply to my communication. It is very short. gathered up at intermediate points between Boston and New York, but 1\Ir. DAVIS, of West Virginia. Previous to that I should like to the mail from Halifa..~, which includes also quite a considerable foreign correct a statement of fact. I read from the official report-- ;mail. Mr. BUTLER. I submit t.o the Senator that the letter I have sent Mr. BECK. I ask the Senator from Kansas if I was right insaying up should be read. that the present arrangement enables not only the Representatives and The PRESIDENT pro tem.JX)re. The Senator from South Carolina enators but everybody else in 'Vashington, to obtain the Boston mail has the right to have read the letter which he has sent to the desk. ..at 11 o'clock in the morning instead of 5 in the afternoon, as would be The Acting Secretary read as follows: the case if this train was taken off? Po T-0FFICE DEPARTMENT, Mr. PLUMB. It makes a difference of six hours. OFFICE GE:!I<~RAL SUPER~TENDENT OF RAILWAY 1-!AIL SERVICE, Mr. McMILLAN. I should like to ask the Senator in charge of the Washington, D. C., January 16,1883. Sm: I have the honor t{) a~knowledge the receipt of your letter of the 15th bill how much sooner does the 4 o'clock mail from New York reach instant, and in reply say that the appropriation for the fast mail service asap­ -Chicago than the subsequent morning mail? plied to the Atlantic coast line has been of very great service to the large sec-­ 1\Ir. PLUl\IB. The saving is about six hours. tion of country which it supplies. The service will not be mainta.~d without the companies are paid the ' spec.ial fooilities." Mr. McMILLAN. To Chicago? This was an a-dditional train placed on the roa-d on the schedule arranged by Mr. PLUMB. To Chicago. the Post-Office Department, and ifthe compensation should be withdmwniam 1\Ir. COCKRELL. Are there not trains leaving New York at 1 confident that the train would al o be withdrawn: The managers have informed me to that effect. "O'clock in the morning going south and going west which take all the In view of their statements and the foot that they did not r•n a. similar train mail matter deposited up to that time? ' to this prior to the payment of "special facilities," I am clear the train will no• 1\Ir. PLUMB. I am not aware of any train leaving New York at 1 be continued longer than the present fiscal year. If such is the case, on and aft.er the 1st day of July the through schedule from New York to Charleston. ,.o clock a. m. There is a train that leaves New York at 12.10. South Carolina, will be once per day, arriving at the last-named place at 4 p.m. Mr. COCKRELL. ·well, 12.10 at night. When there are trains instead of 6.50 a. m. I inclose herewith a copy of a letter that I wrote Hons. l eaving New York at about 12 o'clock at night which take all the mail RA..~NEY and l\IoRSE, of the 1\Ia.ssachusetts dele.,o-ation, which I think will fairly represent the case . .matter deposited up to that hour going south and west, what does this If, however, you should de ire anything more definite, I will be glad to f~ -train at 4 o'clock take? . nish all the information in my power. l\Ir. PLUMB. 1\Iy understandingis that that 12 o'clock train-does Very respectfully, W. B. THOMPSON, not carry the mail from New York. GeneraL Superint.e~t. 1\Ir. DAVIS, of West Virginia. Yes, it does. Hon. 1\I. C. BuTLER, 1\fr. COCKRELL. I understand it does, and it is reported and pub­ Unit-ed States Sen a~e , Washington, D. C. lished in the press of the country that it does, and that was the reason 1\Ir. BUTLER. It will be seen that the effect of withdrawing ~ I wanted the Senator to explain what mail these fast trains take out of appropriation will be to put the mail in Charleston from New York New York. They start at 4 in the morning. The trains that leave later by eight hours than under the present arrangement. That fast­ :at 12, or about 12, take all the mail matter deposited up to that time. mail train leaYes h ere at 11 in the morning and arrives in Charleston They take, as the Senator from Kentucky says, the mail which leaves next morning about 6-eighteen hours. If this appropriation is with­ Boston the previous afternoon at, say, 7 o'clock and arrives in New drawn, that mail will not reach Charleston until 4 o'clock p. m. that York just before 4 o'clock. That is distributed and put on and goes day, instead of 6 in the morning. That is the effect on that part of the jmmediately on, and that is alL country. Now, I should like the Senator to explain further how far these fast 1tlr. UAXEY. If.theSenatorfrom Missouri (Mr. COCKRELL] be cor­ -trains carry mail matter? What mail does the train going from New rect, the whole matteris perfectly clear. TheSenatorstates thatthere York to Chicago take on the route, and where does the morning mail is a train leaving New York between 12 and 1 o'clock at night, about train from New York overtake the same mail matter? 12.10. .Af3 a matter of course that train takes up all the mail which is 1\Ir. PLUMB. It is not overtaken at all. The fast mail train which depo ited previous to that time. Does not everybody know that there leaves New York is not overtaken by any subsequent train; on the is no mail of any consequence, if any at all, deposited between 12 o'clock contrary, it itself overtakes, and there is the advantage of it, a train at night and 4 o clock in the morning? So that the train which startA which departs from Albany at a period which would make it impossi­ out at 4 o'clock in the morning carries not letters but simply carries ble to make the connection by the regular train. It goes, it is true, mainly the morning papers issued ~hat morning. That is about the into a regular train at Buffalo. principal business it has to do, and the papers really go by express and Mr. COCKRELL. Where it stops. pay no postage. Mr. PLUMB. No, I beg pardon; it does not stop there. It goes Ir. BUTLER. What does the Senat or say about the train leaving :right on with that train. here at 11 o'clock a. m. going south? I feel a special interest in the Mr. COCKRELL. What mail does it carry? mails from here to Charleston; I do not care so much about the mai.ls 1lfr. PLUl\ffi. All the mail which it takes out from New York and from New York. what it gathers up subsequently. The PRESIDENT pro tempO're. The hour of 1 o'clock has arri~ :Mr. COCKRELL. Between 12 o.nd 4 in the. morning. That is all. and the unfinished business comes up. 1883. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD- SENATE. 1269

Mr. PLUMB. I think there is probably no item in this bill except York and not from Philadelphia. That letter is gotten up for this pur­ this one which will excite debate, and I presume debate on this has poe, while this official report was gotten up for the whole country. been substantially concluded. The Postmaste1·-General has said in his report, and so has the super­ .Mr. MOllRILL. But this bill can just as well be finished to-mor­ intendent of the railway mail service, if not in words ubstantially, that row in the morning hour as to-day. $600,000 should be given to supply the whole country; and theTe is no Mr. PLU:MB. I hope the Senator from Vermont will give us a few reason why the city of New York for one or two great lines should have minutes at least. If it is going to make delay beyond a few minutes, $185,000, the whole country paying the expense and getting no benefit I shall not pr it. whateveT. My friend from South Carolina says that tlris fast mail :Mr. HOAR The Senator from Vermont will allow me to say that service does his people a great deal of good. How? Not by any money he ought not to use his power to antagonize all other business. I do being paid on his part of the line to any extent. It is paid to great not mean that the Senator is at all inclined to do so; but to drive this corporations in the city of New York, whose l.iiles move south and con­ bill into the morning hour drives down everything else. nect with the regular trains when they get to Richmond or aboutthere, Ux. MORRILL. If we are to complete the tariff bill we must con­ and then they goon. Itisnotforthe benefitoftheSenator's constituents tinue earnest work upon it every hour and minute of the time that we in South Carolina. New Orleans also is spoken of; but I ay not one have. If the Senator from Kansas thinks the appropriation bill can be cent out of this $185,000 is paid to any part of the South except between disposed of in ten minutes, I will yield for ten minutes. New York and Charleston. Mr. PLUJI,ffi. I think it can. ~Ir. BUTLER. In reply to what the Senator sa.ys, I beg to remark Ur. ROLLIN , l\Ir. HOAR, and others. Let w take a vote. that I do not ca.re the snap of my finger whether the railroads make Mr. BUTLER. I do not desire to say anything further on the point one dollar outof.this service or not. That is not the question. The point I was discussing; but I a'\"ail myself of the privilege! have while on the I refen-ed to when I said it wa of great benefit to my part of the floor to say that I hope the enator from Kansas havin..,. the bill in country was the convenience to the business portion of the community, charge will insist on it being finished now. the merchants particularly on the line of the road, the merchants in Several SENATOR!. Vote! Vote! Charleston and Wilmington and on all the lines connecting with thi Mr. JONES, of Florida. I wish to give notice that on Saturday after fa t mail ervice. I do not care whether the railroads get any ad­ the expiration of the morning hom I hall call up the resolution in- vantage from it or not; it is not a matter of the slightest consequence iroduced by me- · to me whether trunk lines or branch lines or other railroads get it; I Mr. HOAR. My friend will allow me. It is too bad to take up this was referring to the benefit it was to the business community, the busi­ ten minutes that the enator from Vermont allows -qs with notices. ness inter ts of the South. Why not give them at some other time? Let us vote on this bill. Ur. DA.. VIS, of West Virg.inia. ~lay I ask the Senator how fur it il Mr. JONES, of Florida.. Why should the Senator object? from Florence to Charleston'? Mr. HOAR. I do not object; I merely appeal to my friend. 1\Ir. BUTLER. Something over one hundred miles. The :fust mail Mr. JONES, of Florida. I wish to give notice that on Saturday I goes right to Charleston via Florence. I do not know whether the desire to call up the resolution introduced by me on the 27th of Decem­ Northeastern Raihoad gets the benefit of it or not, but I know the mail ber in relation to the treaty between the United • tates and Spain, on goes through, for I went on the same train my elf. which I shall desire to make a few remarks. Mr. DAVIS, of West Virginia. It has been shown by the Senator The PRESIDENT prolempore. Do theSenatormeanaftertheusual from Missouri and others that there are in the evening, after business. morning business? hours close in New York, I think four tmins leaving there before this Mr. JONES, of Florida. Yes, ir. fast train in the morning leaves that carries the metropolitan newspar Mr. PLATT. Iamasanxioustohavethis appropriation bill disposed pers, and that was what it was put on for, and for hardly any mail mat- of as any member of the Senate, but I desire to say a. few words in con­ ter whatever. . nection with the subject of the reduction of letter postage, and if there Mr. MAXEY. I submit that the most of those papers are carried is to be an effort to finish the bill in ten minutes I thought perhaps I by express and pay no postage. ought to give that notice at this time. M:r. BUTLER. I think the Senator is entirely misinformed about The PRESIDENT pro tempore. There is no agreement about that. the quantity of mail matter brought by that traim I am not prepared If the Senator from Vermont does not call up the unfinished business, to say how much, but in conversation the other day with the superin­ the Chair will understand that this appropriation bill continues before tendent of the railway mail service he made a statement of the num­ the Senate. ber of pounds of mail matter brought by that mail, and I was very Ur. DAVIS, of West Virginia. The Post-Office appropriation bill much surprised at it. is still before the Senate? l\Ir. DAVIS, of West Virginia. I admit that there is a great number The PRESIDENT pro tempore. It is. of pounds, but what is it? Newspapers. llr. DAVIS, of West Virginia. This is a question of great impor­ ~Ir. BUTLER. N"o, the fast mail does not bring newspapers. iwlce to some of the commercial cities of this country who have to pay .Ur. DAVIS, ofWest Virginia. I will state the case as I understand tribute to the larger cities, as I understand. The entire country has it, and I think I understand the que tion as to the mail serrice. This to pay its portion of this $185,000, while the city of New York gets train leaving New York, say, at 4 o'clock in the morning is put on almost the whole benefit of it. .All the trains to which any money more especially for the newspapers. Why? There is a mail now leav­ is paid for special mail facilities start from there. From New York to ing New York for the South and West, I believe, at 7.45 in the even­ Springfield $17,000 is paid; from New York to Buffalo, 546,000; these ing, which takes nearly all the mail that is gathered during the day. are some of the items that make up the 185,000; $150,000 of it is for Last year I heard the statement of the officers of the Post-Office De­ servj.ce from one city. I believe with the exception of a little crumb partment, and it was that the mail leaving New York at 7.45 in the dropped here in the South to one or two roads between Charleston and evening, which is not in any way compensated other than as the reg­ Richmond, New York gets the entire amount, and not one dollar is for ular service, is the first to get to all the southwest cities, to Cincinnati, any other city. Louisville, Saint Louis, New Orleans, and everywhere in the Southwest The Senator who has charge of the bill stated a moment ago that and in the Texas country. Following that, I believe, at 9.40, a train $25,000 was the amount that was paid for the mail service out of New leaves New York going south and going west, with no extra compen­ York. sation. Again, at 12.10, I think, a train leaves New York to take Mr. PLUM.B. Not out of New York but out of New York west. whatever else is gathered, without compensation, sta.rting south and Mr. DAVIS, of West Virginia. The official report says 46,000 from starting west, and gathering up all the mail matter of the day from :New York to Buffalo. the commercial communities through which it runs, and there is no lfr. PLUMB. The Senator has got the report for the preceding year. extra compensation whatever on the part of the Government. Mr. DAVIS, of.West Vitginia. It is the same, the Postmaster­ A train leaves New York in the morning at about 4 o'clock. .As I General tells you, and the only excuse he has got for paying the same understand, that train takes the metropolitan newspapers, and there is M last year is that he made no changes. a large amount of them. I know, as was said by the Senator from Mr. PLUMB. I hold in my hand the letter of the superintendent Texas, that they are generally sent as express matter and not as mail ol the railway mail service, in which he says: matter. The train brings them here and takes them south in very The expenditures out of the special-facilities appropriation for the present good time; but why should the Government pay specially for a train ~1 year are about as follows: which runs out of New York to carry newspapers when the mail has :New York to Springfield...... $17,647 06 nearly all preceded it? Why should the Government pay from New New York to Albany...... 25,000 00 Philadelphia. to Charleston, South Carolina...... 142,274 26 York to outh Carolina on one train aboutS100,000a year when trains have preceded it with both mail and pas engers? Total...... 184, 921 32 What is the result of this? The train that lea'\"es New York at .t Mr. DAVIS, of West Virginia. If the Senator is right in that, there o'clock in the morning comes by way of Philadelphia, ibis true, 3lld is no mail coming from Boston through. If the southern fast mail starts by way of Baltimore and to this city and on south. There is also a from Philadelphia and not from New York, there is no direct connec­ train, 'vithout patronage in any way, without aid from the Government, tion from Boston through. The official report which I hold in my hand which leaves B:1ltimore at 4 o'clock in the morning, with no p:1y from S3ys that it is from New York to Ch::trleston, and it starts from New the Government whatever, and it takes the Baltimore papers and the 1270 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE.

Baltimore mail matter and the Baltimore passengers, and it is-run down to do so, I move that the Senate proceed with the consideration of the at Florence by this fust train from New York, which is paid for bythe appropriation bill. Government, and from Florence south the two trains go together, with­ 1\ir. PLUMB. No; that is my own position. I said I did not feel out compensation, everywhere south, to New Orleans, 1\Iobile, Florida, warranted in yielding to the Senator from Vermont. as I understand. Mi-. BUTLER. I misunderstood the Senator. These are the facts about the southern trains, and I believe I am cor­ The PRE3IDENT pro tempore. The Chair lays before the Senate the rect in the statement; so that the only thing which the fast train does unfinished business, which is the revenue bill. that my friend from South Carolina talks about is that it does bring in Mr. PLUl\IB. I move t.o lay aside the unfinished business until to­ the papers; bntthetrain that leaves Baltimore at 4o'clock, which will morrow. take him or me or anyone else, is just as fast a train a.S the one that The PRESIDENT pro tentpore. The Senator from Kansas moves w leaves New York at that time. postpone the unfinished business until to-morrow. Mr. BUTLER. The Senator is entirely mistaken about that, I can Mr. MORRILL. I trust that will not be done. :assure him. He has referred to the fact that the train which arrives Mr. BUTLER. I hope it will. here about 11 o'clock brings the metropolitan newspapers. I wish to Mr. MORRILL. I ask for the yeas and nays on the motion. We say that that is of very great consequence to the country, for everybody may as well have it understood whether we are to go on with the rev- in the country is always extremely anxious to see theN ew York papers. enue bill. · While I admit that it would hardly be proper for the Government to The yeas and nays were ordered. pay for that specially, I think it a~complishes a great deal when we get Mr. ALLISON. I trust we shall not spend time now in taking the the New York papers at 11 o'clock in the morning, and at Charleston yeas and nays as to the order of business. It seems to me the appro­ the next morning at 6 o'clock I think that accomplishes a great deal. priation bills ought to pass, and certainly we ought to go on with the I have no doubt the mails go, as the Senator says, from New Y.ork at 4 tariff bill with rapidity, spending each day some hours upon it. If W6 o'clock in the afternoon or 12 o'clock at night, but the point I make­ do not do it, we are certain not to have a tariff bill or tax bill at this and I only do that by way of illustration-is that we get the mails in session. Charleston eight hours earlier by this fast train, which is rendered pos­ Mr. SHERMAN. I wish to say that the appropriation bills were sible by the special-facilities appropriation, than we should do by the never, as my recollection goes, so far advanced at this period of theses­ .running of the ordinary trains. That is all there is of it. sion as they are now. None of them will go into effect until the 1st of Mr. DAVIS, of West Virginia. So far as New York is concerned the July, except there be special provisions as to particular items. It is Senator is right, but not so far as Baltimore and Washington are con­ not expected that these bills will pass before the 4th of March, and they cerned. Why should the Government pay for special mail facilities for are just as certain to pass as that the sun will roll around. If we am mulling the Southern train to which he refers? I speak of that now, to take up and act on the tariff question, either upon the pending bill for that is the most important one and the one for which the most money or any measure for the reduction of taxes, we must go on and do it to is paid. Why should the Government pay for this New York train, so the postponement of other business or we have got to abandon it. I for that New York papers or letters may be put in ·advance of the mail one will stand by the tariff bill and the Senator from Vermont againsi matter of other sections of the country? Why should not other sections all other business, unless it is his discretion to waive the morning hour of the country have the same facilities? or any other time to such matters as may be pressing. There is no ne­ Mr. BUTLER. I will ask the Senator a question. Does not that cessity and I do not think it is fair to press these appropriation bil.ls, same train take up the mail at Philadelphia and Baltimore and Wash­ which are in the nature of bills that will pass and must pass in due ington and Richmond and Weldon and Wilmington, as it goes along, time, against the tariff bill, unless there is an indifference to the tarifi' increasing it and expediting it to that extent? bill or a determination to defeat it. Mr. DAVIS, of West Virginia. Is a passenger or a letter to wait in The PRESIDE~T pro tempore. The roll will be called on the motioa Baltimore in order to allow a train from New York to come along and to postpone the revenue bill until to-morrow. take him or it up, and should the Government pay expressly for that The Principal Legislative Clerk proceeded to call the roll. ... train? Is that right? Is it proper? Is it just? 1.1r. JACKSON. I wish to announce the pair of my coll~oue [Mr. M:r. BUTLER. I do not understand that the Government pa-ys any­ HARRIS], who is absent, with the Senator from Michigan [Mr. FEBBY]. thing. It is oruy on this train that it pays. I make the announcement for the day. Mr. :MORRILL. I call for the regular order. The result was announced-yeas 27, nays 31; as follows: The PRESIDENT pro tempo-re. The Chair can not take the Senator YEAS-ZT. from West Virginia off the floor. Barrow, Davis ofW. Va., Jonas, Pugh, Mr. MORRILL. I thought the Senator from West Virginia was Butler, Garland, Jones of Florida, Ransom, through. Call, Grover, Kellogg, Saulsbury, l\1r. DAVIS, of West Virginia. No, sir. T-o the people whom I Cameron of Wis., Hampton, Lamar, Vance, Chilcot~ Ingalls, Maxey, Vest, represent this is a very important question, and it will take the Sen­ Cockreu,1 Jackson, ltlorgan, Walker. ate some time to get through with it. Coke, Johnston, Plumb, Mr. MORRILL. I merely ask, as it is obvious that this bill. cannot NAY8-31. be completed at least in less than an hour's debate, whether the Sena­ Aldrich Davis of Ill., Hoar, Pendletoa, tor will not forego his explanation until to-morrow morning? Allison,' Edmunds, Jones of Nevada, Platt, Anthony, George, Lapham, Rollins, Mr. DAVIS, of West Virginia. I have no objection at all to giving Beck, Gorman, :McDill, Sawyer, way for the purpose of going on with the revenue bill. Blair Groome, _ McMillan, Sewell, l\fr. MOH.RILL. Then I call for the regular order. Camden, Harrison, Miller of Cal., Sherman. Cameron of Pa., Hawley, MillerofN. Y., Slater. 1\Ir. DAVIS, of West Virginia. The matter now under consideration Conger, Hill, Morrill, can not be passed without proper discussion, I will say to Senators. ABSENT-18. Mr. EDMU~"DS. I hope my colleaooue will not take the Senator Bayard, Ferry, 1\IcPherson, Voorhees, from West Virginia off the floor if he •wishes to proceed. Brown, Frye, Mahone, Williams, Mr. MORRILL. I do not propose to do so. Dawes, Hale :Mitchell, Windom. Fair, HarriS,1 Saunders, Mr. DAVIS, of West Virginia. I give way for that purpose. I will­ Farley, Logan, Van Wyck, ingly yield to the Senator from Vermont. So the motion was not agreed to. The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The regular order is called for. Mr. PLUl\fB. I do hope that we may get through with this appro­ ENROLLED BILL SIGNED. priation bill. I have no desire to antagonize the tariff bill which the A message from the Honse of Representatives, by Mr. McPHEBSOlf, Sen.a,tor f1·om Vermont has in charge, but in the absence of any new its Clerk, announced that the Speaker of the Honse had signell the en­ instruction from the Committee on Appropriations I feel constrained rolled bill (H. R. 7052) making appropriations for the Agricultural De­ to insist that the further consideration of this bill shall be continued. partment of the Government for the fiscal year ending June 30, 1884, l\Ir. IORRILL. The Senator must see that the bill will excite dis­ and for other purposes; and it was thereupon signed by the President cussion. The question as to reducing the postage from 3 cents to 2 cents pro tempore. will occupy at least an hour. Therefore it had better go over until to­ HOUSE BILLS REFERRED. morrow morning, so that Senators may have full time to consider it. The bill (H. R. 3123) to amend sections 1, 2, 3, and 10 of "an ad 1\fr. EDMUNDS. It can be taken up to-morrow as soon as the ron­ to determine the jurisdiction of the circuit courts of the United States, tine morning business is concluded. and to regulate the removal of causes from State courts, and for other 1\Ir. PLUMB. I think on the whole the argument is a good deal purposes, 7 ' approved March 3, 1875, was read twice by its title, and re­ stronger in favor of getting through with the appropriation bill, because ferred to the Committee on the Judiciary. we shall get more time by going ahead now. I do not feel that I have The bill (H. R. 7240) for the relief of William ll. Donohoe "\vas read any discretion in the matter under the instruction of the committee ex­ twice by its title, and referred to the Committee on Military A..ffaiiS.. rept that I must ask the Senate to CO]ltinue the consideration of the bill. Mr. MORRILL. I ask for the consideration of the unfinished bnsi- REPORTS OF COMMITI'EE3. ness. Mr. SHERMAN, from the Committee on Finance, to whom WllS ro- 111r. BUTLER. If the Senator from Kansaa does not fool authorized ferred the bill (S. 2356) to authorize the increaBe of theca ital stock ol 1883. CONGRESSIONAL REOORD-SENATE. 1271 the Second National Bank of Xenia, Ohio, reported it with an amend­ JJ!r. PLATT. Yesterday I reserved the right to propose an amend­ ment striking out the preamble. ment to the item about varnishes, but as I understand that amendmen1B PRINTING OF HOUSE TARIFF BILL. may be made as well in the Senate as in Committee of the Whole, I shall reserve the amendment until the bill comes into the Senate. I Mr. ANTHONY. I am instructed by the Committee on Printing, to desire to obtain some further information in relation to the matter. I . which waa referred a concurrent resolution of the House of Representa­ think there should be a serious reduction on the article of varnishes tives for printing House bill No. 7313 and accompanying reports, tore­ below what the committee have reported. port it without amendment and recommend its passage, and I ask for JJ!r. BECK. Yesterday I asked leave to reserve until this.mornin; its present consideration. the amendments off~ed by the Senator from Vermont [Mr. MoRRILL1 Air. INGALLS. I object to its consideration to-day. upon all that portion of Schedule A relating to alcoholic preparations. Mr. ANTHONY. It is merely to print some extra copies of the House I did so forthe purpose of ending the bill as modified by those amend­ tariff bill. ments to the Commissioner of Internal B.evenue this morning, who had Mr. INGALLS. I object. furnished the committee with a long and somewhat complicated state­ Mr. ANTHONY. I hope the Senator from Kansas will not object. ment of changes which he thought ought to be made, many of which Mr. COCKRELL. Let the resolution be read for information. were not appro>ed by the committee, and others substituted in their The resolution was read, as follows: place. I have not had an opportunity this morning (being in a session .Resolved lY!J the House of Representatives (the &nate concurring), That6,000 copies .of the bill (H. R. 7313) to impo e duties upon foreign imports, and a.ccompany­ of a committee until the Senate met a.nd looking somewhat into the ing reports, be printed, of which 2,000 copies shall be for the use of the Senate Post-Office appropriation bill since that time as a member of the Com­ .and 4,000 copies for the use of the House. mittee on Appropriations) to make the comparison and examination that ThePRESIDINGOFFICER(Mr. MILLER, of California, in the chair)·. I hoped to be able to do before this hour this morning. I will reserve Objection being made, the tesolution will lie over until to-morrow. whatever amendments I may see :fit to offer inr~aard to those items until BILL INTRODUCED. the bill reaches the Senate, having no reason to believe that! shall thea offer any, as other members of the committee who have looked into the Mr. SHERMAN asked and, by unanimous consent, obtained leave to matter believe it is now right. I state that as a reason why I do no.t introduce a bill (S. 2382) to confer upon the senior associate-justice of now ask to go back to those amendments. the Supreme Court of the District of Columbia, in the absence or ina­ Mr. LAPHilL Before the reading of the bill is proceeded with, I bility of the chief-justice of said court, the powers and duties now ask to go back to lines 227 and 228, the consideration of which was re­ conferred upon said chief:.justice relative to the extradition of fugitives served when the item was reached; and I offer in connection with tid from justice; which was read twice by its title, and referred to the Com­ item the amendment which I send to the Chair. mittee on the District of Columbia. The PRESIDENT pro tempore. TheChairsnpposesthereis no objec>­ IMPROVEMENT OF THE DETROIT RIVER. tion to going back. Mr. OONGER. I present a letter from the Detroit Board of Trade Mr. COCKRELL. I reserved those lines. in regard to the improvement of the Detroit River, which I ask to have Mr. MORRILL. I think the Senator from New York reserved the printed in the RECORD and referred to the Committee on Commerce. item or had it reserved. Mr. ANTHONY. I do not like to object, but really we are cumber­ Mr. COCKRELL. I will say to the Senator from Vermont ~ .I ing up the RECORD with petitions and memorials to a great extent. reserved it expressly. Mr. CONGER. This is a question of such general national impor­ Mr. LAPHAM. The Senator from Missouri expressly reserved n, tance that I feel it would be desirable to have this paper go into the and I offer the amendment which I now send to the Chair. RECORD. The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The amendment will be reported. The paper was referred to the Committee on Commerce, and ordered The ACTING SECRETARY. It is proposed to strike out lines 227 and -to be printed in the RECORD, as follows: 228 in the following words: DETROIT BoARD OF TRADE, All imitations of natural mineral waters, and all artificial mineral wa&em, • Detroit, Mich .• January 9, 1883. per cent. ad valorem. · _ DEAR Sm: At a meeting of the Detroit Board of Trade, held lihis a. m., the fol­ lowing preamble and resolutions, introduced byW. Livingstone, jr., were unani­ And in lien thereof to insert: mously adopted : Mineral waters, 3 cents per bottle or jug. "Whereas the Lime Kiln Crossing in Detroit River is the most dangerous ob­ struction to navigation on the chain of lakes; and Mr. ALLISON. Suppose they should not be imported in a bottle.~ "Whereas 40 OOOvessels, with 20,000,000tonsoffreight, pass through the Detroit River in a singie season, incurring an enormous loss in revenue from detention, jug? damage, and sinking in crossing this oh<;~truction i and Mr. LAPHAM. They are not imported in any other way. "Whereas the present impro,·ement will be of llttle or no benefit to vessels un­ Mr. INGALLS. They probably would be if the law were put ia. · til entirely completed, and as the present appropriation will soon be exhausted, leaving the work in a dangerous condition: this form. ".Resolved, That this board of t.rade do earnestly request our Representatives :Mr. LAPHAM. I ask the Secretary to read a briefstatementinsnp­ and Senators in Congress to use all possible efforts to secure an appropriation of port of the amendment which I send to the desk. $200 000, estimated to be sufficient to entirely complete the work. "~olved, That a copy of these resolutions be sent to each of our Representa­ The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The communication will be read. tives and Senators." Th_e Acting Secretary read as follows: W. LIVINGSTONE, JR., President. JNO. H. M.A.CIVEB, Secretary. MINERAL WATERS. Hon. OlllAR D . CoNGER, Washington, D. 0. All imported mineral waters should pay duty, first, because there are impo:r-­ tanthomeinterests to protect; and, second, because they are luxuries from whiclla BARBARA MARQUARDT. revenue should be derived. There are about 8,000,000 bottles of mineral waters imported annually, 90 per Mr. MILLER, of New York. I ask unanimous consent that the vote cent. of which are artificial-mostly sparkling table waters. oy which the Senate indefinitely postponed the bill (H. R. 4357) grant­ As the present law i<> construed by the S~cretaryofthe Treasury, these water~! ing a pension toBarbaraltiarquardt, which was reported adversely Jan­ pay no duty. It is believed that his construction of the law is erroneous, and that an annual revenue of about $400,000 should be derived from this source under uary 2, and which escaped my attention, may be reconsidered and the the existing law. bill recommitted to the Committee on Pensions. We expect to be able There should be a specific duty on mineral waters of not less than 3 cents per bottle or jug. .A. duty of 3 cents would secure a revenue of $'140,000 per ann~ to present some new testimony in the matter. I did not notice the re­ and afford some protection to home interests. .A.n ad valorem duty would yield port at the time. little revenue, for the reason that the waters are invoiced so low as todefeattba. Mr. JACKSON. .Af3 a member of the Committee on Pensions I re­ object ofthe law. I The cost of mineral waters in Europe is trifling, and the cost of labor, bottles. ported the bill referred to by the Senator from New York. nnder­ bottling, &c., much cheaper than in this country. .stand that there is additional evidence to be introduced, and I trust that The owners of natural mineral springs and the manufacturers of mineral wa­ the Senate will assent to the recommittal of the bill. ters in this country have invested many millions of dollars in their business, and employ thousands of men-between 3,000 and 4,000 in •be city of New York alone. Mr. MILLER, of New York. I ask unanimous consentforthatpur- And there are mineral-water factories in most of the important cities' and towna po~. . in the country. · The PRESIDING OFFICER. There being no objection, the vote by The admission of 8,000,000 bottles of mineral waters free, or at a nominal d~JtT.., will annually, is a positive injury to the business of the glass bottle manufucturers m which the.bill was indefinitely postponed be reconsidered and the this country. It is equa.lly detrimental to the business of the bottlers, who em­ bill recommitted to the Committee on Pensions. ploy a lar~;re amount of capital and many thousands of laborers. The vanous interests o.bove referred to place this question among the im~ AMENDMENT TO .A. BILJ,. tant ones to be considered in connection with the to.riff. Mr. BLAIR submitted an amendment intended to be proposed by H. R. 5538 should be amended us follows: "Strike out lines '127 and 228, page 16, and insert in lieu thereof the follo'IIIJiDe : him to the bill (H. R. 1410) to amend the pension laws by increasing "'l'ofineral w aters, 3 cents per bottle or jug.' the pensions of soldiers and sailors who have lost an arm or a leg in the "Strike out line 1815, po..,o-e 83." service; which was referred to the Committee on Pensions, and ordered Mr.-LAPHAM. In order to obviate the suggestion of the hoOOI'­ to be printed. able Senator from Iowa [Mr. ALLISO! ], which had not occurred to me., INTERN.A.L REVENUE AND TARIFF DUTIES. as this amendment was sent to me to be introduced, and at the sugges­ The Senate, as in Committee of the Whole, resumed the consideration tion of the chairman of the Finance Committee I ask leave to mod.ifr ,.JJf the bill (H. R. 5538) to reduce internal-revenue taxation. my amendment by taking the prorision which I find in the bill which The PRESIDING OFFICER. Schedule B will be proceeded with. passed the Honse, the report of the Committee on Ways and Means of 1272 · CONGRESSIONAL RECORD- SENATE. JANUARY 17,_ ihe House, page 11, lines 245 to 249. I ask to substitute those lines in natural mineral waters in terms. The substitute which I offer does in lien of the amendment I sent to the Secretary's desl{:. terms include natural and imitation mineral waters. I have no desire The PR~IDENT pro tempore. We have no such bill here. whatever to impose a duty upon natural mineral waters; because they are Mr. LAPHAM. It is on our tables. not brought into this country in very large quantities; but I wish to do Mr. ALLISON. I make the point of order that it is not in order to so upon the imitations, which the Secretary of the Treasury has ruled. allude to a. tariff bill which may have passed or may be pending in the as a matter of law in the Department can come in free under the pro­ House. vision of the present tariff permitting natural mineral waters to come The PRESIDENT pro tempore. We have no such bill of the House in free. Artificial waters in vast quantities come into the country now before us. free of duty under that decision. The object of the amendment is to Mr.· BECK. The bill of the House is on our tables. strike at that evil, and to relieve the Treasury Department from the The PRESIDENT pro tempore. It may be on Senators' tables. trouble to which it has been subjected in determining that question. J.Ir. BECK. I object to briDging the action of the House before the These artificial mineral waters come in at a mere nominal price, an · Senate. It is not in order. an ad valorum duty upon them amounts to nothing whatever. They Mr. LAPHAM. I do not bring the action of the House before the are purely articles of luxury, and they are thrown in here in competi­ Senate. I offer the language of that bill as my amendment, in lieu of tion with our natural mineral waters without pa.ying anything what-· the amendment I first sent up. ever, whereas by the imposition of a 3 per cent. bottle tax, as is now The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The Senator has a right to do that. proposed, not only a fair revenue would be obtained but probably the :M:r. ALLISON. But he has no right to aUude to what occurred in importation of them would be to some extent restricted. ihe other House. . Mr. ALLISON. If the Senator will allow me a moment, do I under-­ The PRESIDENT pro tempore. He has no right to anu·de to what stand him simply to desire a, change in the phraseology of line 228, so CICCurred in the other House. a to require a specific duty instead of an ad valorem duty? Mr. LAPH.Al\I. I have not stated what occurred in the other House. 1\Ir. LAPHA1\I. That is all the change that I desire. I stated that I found those words in a printed document on my desk, Mr. ALLISON. Then I submit to him that he cando itveryreadily and I asked to substitute them for the amendment that I first pro- by inserting instead of 30 per cent. ad va~orem the specific duty that he posed. propo es. Mr. ALLISON. That is all right. Ur. L.A..PH..!.l\1. I will consent to that modification. My only object The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The Secretary will read the amend­ is to make this a specific duty. InanswertothesuggestionoftheSen­ ment offered by the Senator from New York [Mr. LAPHAni]. ator from Vermont tha,t 3 cents a bottle is too much of a tax upon these The ACTING SECRETARY. It is proposed to strike out lines 227 and waters ifthey contain anything whatever of any value, I suggest that this !28 and to insert in lieu thereof: very bill imposes a. tax of 3 cents per bottle upon all bottles contoining Natural and imitation mineral waters and all wholly artificial mineral waters wines which are imported into this country. eontaining not more than one quart each, 3 cents per bottle or jug; containing 1\Ir. .MORRILL. I will say to the Senator that the bottles containing more than one quart or fraction thereof, 3 cents additional for each bottle or jug. champagne are very much more valuable than the lower-priced bottles,. Mr. MORRILL. I desire to say in relation to this proposition­ which contain nothing but beer or mineral water. The PR~IDENT pro tempore. The Senator from New York has the 1\Ir. INGALLS. How does the amendment stahd now, Mr. Presi- i.oor. dent? Mr. LAPHAM. I yield to the Senator from Vermont. Mr. ALLISON. As modified. Mr. MORRILL. I would not take the floor from the Senator from The PRESIDENT pro tempore. It will be reported. New York. I thought the Senator was through. The ACTING SECRETARY. It is proposed to strike out lines 227 and· Mr. LAPHAM. Certainly, I yield. 228 and to insert in lieu thereof: Mr. MORRILL. My impression is that all natural mineral waters Natural and imitation mineral waters and all wholly artificial mineral waters­ ought to come in entirely free. I have no objection to putting any sort containing not more than one quar~ each, 3 cents per bottle or jug; containing of duty upon the imitations or the artificial mineral waters. I think more than one quart or fraction thereof, 3 cents additional for ea{lh bottle or jug. that some duty should be placed upon the bottles, but 3 cents would .Mr. INGALLS. I move to amend the amendment by striking out be a great deal too high, probably at least 200 per cent. on the bottles. the words ''natural and'' in the first line of the proposed amendment. If the.re was any duty to be placed upon them at all, it should be at a Mr. MORRILL. I thought the Senator from New York consented lower rate, and perhaps it should be made specific, probably 1! cents a to amend the text of the bill aecording to the suggestion made by the· pound. The small pint bottles weigh less than a pound, and the quart Senator from Iowa. bottles weigh more. But I really think that the natural mineral waters Mr. INGALLS. I asked the Chair what the question pending was, from abroad, which differ essentially from those which we have in this and he answered by what was read by the Secretary. country, for instance like apollinaris water, an article of large con­ The PR~IDENT pro tempore. That is all the Chair now understands sumption, ought to come in as they do now, entirely free. to be the amendment of the Senator from New York. Mr. BECK. Mr. President, this seems to be the last straw, and they 1\Ir. MORRILL. I think the Senator from New York intended1.o say it was the last one that broke the camel's back, that natm-aJ. min­ modify it. ..ernl waters are a home industry. I suppose the Saratoga Springs were The PRESIDENT pro tempore. Does the Senator from New York flowing there before ever a white man approached the American conti­ modify his amendment? IteDt, and that they will continue to flow, and because 1\Ir. Hathorne, Mr. LAPHAM. I consent to take the suggestion of the Senator from or anybody else who happens to get possession of those springs, desires Iowa and in line 228 will move to strike out '' 30 per cent. ad valorem'' a monopoly ~o-ainst all the world and all the waters that anybody may and to insert: want to drink, the proposition is now made to levy a duty on im­ Three cents per bottle or jug of not more than. one quart ea.ch, and 3 cents for.­ ported mineral waters. There was a story told once, at a time when ea.ch additional quart or fra.ction thereof. E:Dgland was taxing everything until Sidney Smith burlesqued it in his So as to make lines 227 and 228 read: inimitable way, which I will repeat. Dean Swift had a little country All imitations of natural mineral waters and all artificial mineral waters, 3 place in a hilly part of Ireland. A lady friend of his, who was tired of cents per bottle or jug of not more than one quart each, and 3 cents for each ii:le fogs of London, went to pay him a visit. After being there a. little additional quart or fraction thereof. - while she said that the air was :gerfectly delicious. The dean laid his Mr. ALLISON. That makes the amendment now apply to all arti­ - hand on her shoulder and said, 'Madam, do not speak of it; they will ficial mineral waters? tax it.'' This is coming as near that condition of things as anything I Mr. LAPHAM. To purely artificial mineral waters. know of. 1\Ir. BECK. And is a raising of the tariff upon them about 100 per lir. COCKRELL. Is not this a. luxury? cent. above what it now is. Mr. BECK. A luxury! Has not a man a right, if he desires to have 1\Ir. MORRILL. The Senator is mistaken. water that he thinks is good for his health, to enjoy it without paying ?!Ir. ALLISON. The Senator from Kentucky is mistaken about that_ 3 cents a bottle to put into the pocket of somebody who owns a little Mr. 1\IORRILL. The duty is now 3 9ents a bottle and 25 per cent. Saratoga spring or something else? If we were struggling for revenue, ad valorem. - and it was a matter of life or death to the Government that we should ?!Ir. SHER:rt.LL~. But the amendment as now proposed does no~­ have a large revenue, that might beoneconsideration; but the struggle reach what the Senator from New York wished to accomplish. now is to get clear of the surplus revenue. We arepaying$81,000,000 1Ir. BECK. I mean that it raises thetariffaboutlOOper cent. above for six months of this year on the principal of the national debt, when, the 30 per cent. ad valorem proposed in the bill. as the Senator from Missouri, who asks if this is not a luxury, very well Mr. VANCE. In other words it will be equivalent to about 60 per· knows that under the arrangement of our bonds we can only pay $26,- cent. ad valorem. 000,000 a year from nowuntill907, when thelastofthe bondsfalldue. Mr. BECK. It >Till be equivalent to about 60 per cent. And now, because somebody is likely to get water that may do him Mr. ALLISON. I think 3 cents per quart is about 20 per cent. good, or which the doctors may advise him to use, as Vichy, if he is :M:r. BECK. I beg pardon. · sick, or if it is prescribed for the health of his family, he is to pay trib­ Mr. ALLISON. If the Senator will tum to his own tables he will ute to somebody living in Saratoga..· I look at it as simply an outrage. see that these waters now pay 3 cents a bottle and 25 per cent.. ad valo-­ .lir. LAPHAM. The amendment that I first offered did not include rem. 1883. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE. 1273'

Mr. ALDRICH. The unit of value last year was 11.1 cents per The item in lines 410 to 413, inclu ive, was read and agreed to, as bottle. follows: Mr: ALLISON. That is about 20 per cent. Schedule B.-Earthen-ware and glass-ware: Mr. ALDRICH. Three cents a bottle would be about equivalent to Brown earthen-ware, common stone-ware, gas retorts, and stone-ware not ornamented, 25 per cent. ad valorem. 20 per cent. ad valorem. Mr. ALLISON. That is what I endeavored to state. The item from line 414 to line 417, inclusive, was read, as follows: 1fr. VANCE. I rose, Mr. President, to inquire if the object of this China, porcelain, pa.ria.n, and· bisque ware, including plaques. ornaments, duty was to protect artificial mineral waters manufactured in this coun­ charms, vases, and statuettes, painted, printed, or gilded, or otherwise decorated try in counterfeit of the natural?. If so, I think it is 3oaainst good mor­ or ornamented in any manner, 60 per cent. ad valorem. ality as well as health. I think there ought to be a prohibitory duty ~ir. BECK. Mr. President, I do not propose to ar~ZUe these questions; levied upon all these infernal concoctions which pass for mineral waters I only desire before we pass upon them to call attention to them. in imitation of the natural. If we are to have protection, I think the The first item in the schedule, ''brown earthen-ware, common stone-­ protection ought to be all around. Most of the bottles, I believe, have ware," &c., upon which a duty of 25 per cent. ad valorem is imposed tbe corks secured with wire. There ought to be a duty levied on the by the bill, is the same as the existing law; but we make that in such wire in behalf of the Pennsylvania iron interest. I am not sure that quantities that we export it everywhere, and the whole import of it any corke~ are produ~d in this country, or I should move that a tariff amounts to only $9,000. It would not make any difference whether­ be levied on the corks also. Let us have the whole thing protected, if the duty was 2.0 per cent. or 100 per cent. or 500 per cent., becauseno-­ we go in for protection at all. body can compete with it. Mr. VEST. Mr. President, it is very evident that the demand for In the item just read the proposed increase is from 50 per cent. ad this increased duty and this specific duty does not come from the con­ valorem to 60 per cent. ad valorem. The Tariff Commission asked for sumers of this country, whether they belong to the very wealthy classes 65 per cent. and the Senate committee recommend 60. ~1any of those or the middle classes or the poorer classes. It comes from the manu­ things are luxuries, if you choose to so term them. On that item or facturers of artificial mineral waters, and it is intended to give them a china, porcelain, and other things the rate is now 45 per cent. ad \alo­ monopoly. . rem. The item beginning at line 421 is an important one, and is as fol­ A very respectable gentleman, a constituent of mine, in the city of lows: Saint Louis, has sent me a brief argument on this question addressed All other earthern, stone, and crockery ware, white, glazed, ed~ed , printe d ,.. w Mr. CARLISLE, of Kentucky. I ask the Secretary to read it. It comes painted, dipped, or cream-colored composed of earthy or mineral sub tances, from the American Mineral.Water Company. Outofthe two millions not specially enumerated or provided for in this act, 50 per cent. ad valorem. and a quarter of people whom I represent I have only heard from one The present law is 40 per cent. ad valorem. The Senate committee· or two manufacturers of mineral water in regard to this matter; the rest proposes 50 per cent. ad valorem; the Tariff Commission recommends seem to be very indifferent on the subject. 55 per cent. ad valorem. It will be observed that they are all increases The PRESIDENT pro tempare. The Secretary will read what the except the first item, which does not amount to anything, and in re­ Senator from Missouri has sent to the desk. gard to which it makes no difference what the duty is, because none is. The Acting Secretary read as follows: or can be imported. DEAR Sm: The undersigned respectfully submit their views in accordance Mr. PUGH. The entire schedule is increased. with those expressed by other mineral water manufacturers on the following Mr. BECK. The entire schedule is much increased. For example, paasage. in the Tariff Commission report: "All imitations of natural mineral waters and wholly artificial mineral waters, if the commission bill is carried out, for it is only in regard to that that 30 per cent. a.d valorem." comparisons can be made, the china, porcelain, parian, and bisque ware, This provision will yield no revenue, because practically no mineral waters of which the value imported was $2,075,707.90, on which the duty col­ embraced by it are being imported. The great bulk of highly effervescent table waters, although artificially impregnated with carbonic acid, are neither imita­ lected last year was $1,037,853.97, would yield 1,349,210.16, or an &.ions of natural mineral waters nor are they wholly artificial, because the water increase of over $310,000. If we were seeking for a revenue and to. and the carbonic acid of natural springs are used in their manufacture and there­ increase our revenues this would be valuable because it would be an fore would come in duty free. They are luxury waters, constituting over 90 per oent. of the entire importation of mineral waters which, underthe present tariff, increase of revenue and of course an increase of the burdens as well it properly applied, should have paid over saoo,ooo duty for the current year. Mr. SAULSBURY. Provided we imported as much. Special Treasury Agent Colonel Tichenor, in a. recent report on German min­ :Mr. BECK. Provided we imported as much; and perhaps we should eral waters, designates a.s dutiable such waters a.s taunus, rheuse, &c., although the changes made in the above before bottling are less than in the case of the import as much or nearly as much as is now done. These are gener­ Apollinaris Spring. ally high-priced goods,andpeoplewho desire to ornament their houses Considering that most imported mineral waters are luxuries, it would seem with tine sets of chin.a would not, in all probabilicy, care much about that the best way of adjusting the matter, and of avoiding confusion, trouble, and expense, would be to impose a reasonable duty of, say,30 cents per dozen bottles the price. or jugs upon all mineral waters. On the item beginning at line 418, "chin..'l, porcelain, parian, and This would impose a reasonable duty upon a foreign luxury the importation bisque ware, plain white, and not ornamented or deoorated in any man­ · of which has grown to such enormous proportions a.s to overshadow and injure all domestic mineral water interests. ner,'' the duty is now 45 per cent. ; by the commission it is proposed But should it be deemed advisable to admit natural mineral waters free of duty, to be put at 60 per cent.; and by the bill as reported it is fixed at 55 per t.hen we suggest that the above quoted paragraph in the Tariff Commission re­ cent. If the report of the commission were carried out, there would be port be made to read as follows: "All mineral and other waters, for any purpose impregnated with carbonic an increase of about $50,000 revenue ifthe same quantity was imported. acid or other minerals by artificial means, 30 cents per dozen bottles or jugs." On the plain earthen, stone, and crockery ware, the importation of which Host respectfully submitted. was large, at 40 per cent. the revenue was 1,775,294.93. If the same Bon. JoHN G. CARLISLE, M. C., Washington, D. C. amount was imported at 55 per cent. as recommended, that would be Mr. VEST. I will simply say that the idea that the mineral springs an increase of 37! per cent., producing $2,441,030.55 or 665,735.6'~ of the United States, the natural springs which gush from the sides of above the present duty. I have not made the calculation at 50 per cent. the mountains in almost every neighborhood and township, not to say as proposed by the Senate committee. This la.st class is used by all the ('X)unty, throughout the length and breadth of the Union, need this people of the United States. tariff duty to protect them from the natural or manufactured mineral 1t'Ir. VANCE. The first and la.st are. waters of foreign countries is simply a monstrous absurdity. The Sen­ :Mr. BECK. The first may not be used by all, but the last certainly ator from Delaware [Mr. SAULSBURY] says that this is a movement for is. I object to the raising of these duties, and for the reasons which I the protection of American labor. What I have presented in the shape shall state. They are an absolute necessity, especially the last class, of a letter coming from a. manufacturer of mineral waters shows the on which we propose to increase the duties from 40 to 50 per cent. We view of the gentlemen who manufacture them. We are asked now seri­ have given to the manufacturers of those goods since the present tariff, cmsly in the interest of that company to put upon the thousands and which provided 40 per cent. ad valorem, a great many privileges that millions of people in the United States who consume mineral waters, they did not have at the time the tariff was ena.cted. For example, we according to their own taste or according to medical necessity, a tax of put by the present bill the duty on refined borax, which they use in 3 cents a bottle on those who drink the seltzer water or the apolli­ very large quantities, at 3 cents a pound instead of 10 cents, as now. naris that is brought here. Thatisareduction of 70 per cent. on refined borax. Litharge, which The pretense is made that it is giving revenue to the amount of they use largely, we have reduced 33! per cent., or from 3 cents a pound $300,000, while at the same time it puts upon the consumers of the to 2 cents a pound. China clay, or kaolin, we have reduced 40 per United States this tax coming directly out of their pockets. cent., or$35a ton. Feldspar, which they use largely, from 20 per cent. It is stated in this letter that these waters are luxuries. An argu­ we have put on the free-list. A large number of the articles that they ment could be made which I think would absolutely destroy that asser­ use have been free for some time. Stilts and BpUI'S, which are used in tion. They are medical waters; they are prescribed in a. great many the perfection of earthen-ware, were 24 per cent. when the present eases. In one word, I am opposed w the whole thing. tariff was enacted. That we have made free since that time. The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The question is on agreeing to the The following raw materials are free now, and it is proposed to con-· amendment of the Senator from New York [Mr. LAPnAll]. tinue them so: Borax or tineal, crude; flint-stones and ground flint;; The amendment was rejected. stilts and spurs; cobalt, ore of; magnets, and bolting-cloths. The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The Senate will now proceed with We have reduced the duty on a great many other t.hings. Hair pen-· •be consideration of Schedule B. cils which they use, it is proposed to reduce by the bill from 35 per cent. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE. JANUARY 17,

to 30 per cent. Indeed on nearly all the items which are most used by AOCORDING TO RECOMMENDATION OF ~ARIFF COMMISSIOl{. these manufacturers we have reduced the rates, and put a great many Co t of "Ware at Limoges ...... $)71 ot upon the free-list. The object bas been to bring down the p1ice of Duty, 65 per cent...... 371 15 Showing an increase of $')9.15 on $312, or 19 per cent. in duty. these articles by giving their manufacturers free materials. This is without duty on packages, charges, &c.; and should their recom­ · It is claimed tba.t by takingoffthe duty on cratesand transportation mendation not be accepted as regards abolition of duty on packages, from the inland to the seaboard we have substantially 1·educed 15 per charges, &c., the duty would be 65 per cent. on $624. .•...... ••...... •... 405 60 ·cent. I bold in my hand a paper which I do not care to take time to Showing an increase of $93.60 on $312, or 30 per cent. increase in duty. read ''a·brief statement of factery erious and embarrassing and annoying braced in the tariff schedule." 1.'he latter part of this remark is quite true, but as to the former remark, that and, especially in ad valorem cases sometimes, if you please, fraudulen\ the abolition of duties on inland charges, packages, &c., offi ets the increase amOlmts charged upon freights and transportation and commission recommended in the tariff, is refuted by the following statistics; referring you and drayage from the city to which goods come, we have compensated to the ta-ble on page 760 (Tariff Commission's Report): One hundred crates of earthenware as now imported- them very fully by the increase of the articles that they necessarily uae Net cost of ware at Staffordshire potteries...... $3,019 upon the free-list; and by the reduction of those that are not made free, •or-- ' This is without duty on packages, charges, &c.; and should their rec­ ommendation not be accepted as regards abolition of duty on pack- .Mr. BECK. I object again, and! intend to continuetoobject, to any ages, charges, &c., the duty would be55per cent. on 52,305 ...... 1,267 'i5 statement made on this floor as to what the House has done or proposes :Showing an increase of $230.50 on 1,037.25, or 22t per cent. in duty. to do, as being out of order. I have no doubt that there are members TARIFF AS AT PRESIDOT ASSESSED. of that House committee, if I dared to speak of them, who would pro­ Fifteen cases decorated china, cost of ware at Meissen ...... $1., 245 00 hibit anything-- -charges and commi ion, free on board, at Hamburg...... 99 00 The PRESIDING OFFICER (Mr. INGALLS in the chair). If the 1,344 00 Senator from Kentucky desires to submit a point of order, itshould be Duty, 50 per cen_t...... 672 00 done briefly, that the Chair may decide upon it. ACCORDING TO RECOMMENDATION OF TARIFF CO'!IIMISSION. Jrir. BECK. !object to an allusion towhat theHousehasdone. The Cost of ·ware at Meissen ...... $1,215 00 Senator from Vermont has called me to order more than once; I am Duty,65 per cent ...... 809 25 more frequently guilty of this than he; and therefore I propose that he Showing an increase of$137.25 on $672, or20! percent. increase in duty. shall be in order. This is without duty on packages, charges, commission, &c.; and should their recommendation not be accepted as regards abolition of duty 1\Ir. MORRILL. I will not transgress any rule of the Senate, and on packages, charges, &c., the duty would be 65 per cent. on 1,34-L. 873 60 I think I would not h.-we done so if I had made the statement precisely bowing an increase of $201.60 on 72, or 30 per cent. in duty. as I intended to make it. But to ease the mind of the Senator from TARIFF AS AT PRESENT ASSESSED. Kentucky I will refer to a bill now on our tables and say that should '£hirty-three casks of decorated china--ware, cost of ware at Limoges ... $1, ro2 00 it be preferred by Congress instead of the Senate bill no reductions ·Charges and commission, free on board, at Bordeaux...... 188 00 would be made in these raw materials that are used, but if there were 1,990 ()() such a reduction it is too insignificant to be accounted for in this way Duty, 50 per cent...... 995 00 by a reduction of the duties upon crockery-ware. ACCORDING TQ RECOMMENDATION OF TARIFF COl!MISSION. So far as the re>enue is concerned there will be just about the same -Clost of ware at Limoges ...... $1,ro2 00 Duty, 65 per cent-...... 1,171 30 amount of revenue received that there was before, not more, and I do Showing an increa e of Sl-76.30 on $995, or 17f per cent. increase in not think much less, and the articles -will be offered to the public here dut.y. This is without duty on packages, charges, commission, &c.; as low a-s they ever have been. If this policy of encouraging the pro­ and should their recommendation not be accepted as regards aboli­ tion of duty on packages, charges, &c., the duty would be 65 per cent. duction of these articles so useful and so extensively demanded through­ on 1,V90...... •..•...... 1,293 50 out the country is continued it will not be a great while before the clays Showing an increaseof$298.50 on $995, or 30percent. increase in duty. of the Southwestern States of this country will be used, and we shall TARIFF AS AT PRESENT ASSESSED. make all that we require for consumption instead of about one-half. I Ten casks gold band (decorated) china. cost of ware at Limoges...... 571 00 trust, therefore, that the amendment of the Senator from Kentucky Charges and commission, free on board, Bordeaux...... 53 00 will not prevail. 624 ()() Mr. HOAR. Let the amendment be reported. Duty, oo ·per cent...... ~ ...... 312 00 .Mr. BECK. My proposition is to strike out 60 per cent. and inseri 1883 . CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE. 1275

.5() per cent. ad valorem in line 417. I hold in my hand a list of actual The letter was read, as follows: importations under each of these classes, by which it may be seen that WORCESI'ER, Mass., December 30, 1882. 5 per cent. instead of 10 or 15 per cent. is the actual amount of reduc­ DEAR Sm: We have read with great surprise the report of the Tari.tf Commia­ sion on earthen-ware. How any body of men oould have arrived at such oon-· tion, because of the freight

:M:a.ssachusetts, and who, I have no doubt, is a very respectable gentle­ I shall move to make the rate 25 per cent. also, for it is precisely the man. I regret still more the purpose manifegted by the Senator to re­ same ware, I unden:tand, with the simple exception of any oolorin .... &uce the rate proposed by the Tariff Commission 10 per cent., and even matter or any decoration or ornamentation that may be given to it. By that proposed by the Committee on Finance, 5 per cent. the plaeing on white stone-ware or earthen crockery-ware of whatever I want to sn.y to the Senator from :Massachusetts that before we get description of any ornamentation, a flower or a ring of some coloring through with this bill we shall find that there are articles in the bill paint, or anything of that kind, immediately the duty increases 100 per in whiah his State is more interested than in this article and upon which cent. by this clause, From the best information that I can get no pos­ a higher rate of protection is required, and articles which are manufact­ sible ornamentation given to common stone-ware in this country can ured by machinery instead of being solely by hand. Every article of exceed 2} to 5 per cent. of the cost of the article, so cheap are the proc­ crockery-ware has to be made by hand labor. We have not made any esses by which this ornamentation is given; and it is even provided improvement from the time of l\Ioses in the way of manufacturing crock­ that if the clay or substance of which they are made has a different shade ery-ware; that is to say, in tbe manipulation, in the manual labor re­ from the plain white, as cream-colored or otherWise, then the duty is quired. increased 100 per cent. I wish to add further that at the present time in the decoration of I can see no reason for that in the wodd, except to give the manu­ these articles a very large.munber of young omen are engaged and use­ facturers on this slight pretext this great duty upon the article. I shall fully employed, and they find thn.t they can obtn.in higher wages than move to make it 25 per cent. when that clause.is reached. they can at anything else. l\Ir. President, I should like to encourage Generally in regard to crockery-ware, I wish to read what 1\Ir. Thomas this labor on the part of the young women of the country. It is not C. Smith testified before the Tariff Commission. He represented him­ only a useful illbor, but it is in some respects artistic. I do not wish self to be a manufucturer of porcelain at Green Point, New York. He to prevent their goincr on us they have been for the last fi>eortenyears; said: and in a hort time hereafter there is no que tion but what we may re­ The present duty of 45 per cent. on whit-e china should not be altered as it is duce the present rate. preferable to have a. low and permanent rate of duty than a tempora~y high rate of duty, with the certain prospect of a lowering of that high rate in a few So far as the difference between the propo ed bill and the existing years and again agitating this question. This present rate, with the full intent tariff is cancerned, upon an examination of the report of the Tariff Com­ of the law properly executed as regards classification of goods and goods hon­ mission it will be seen that there is noes ential difference between the estly invoiced, is sufficient to enable the manufacturer in this 'country to com­ pete with imported goods, by the further application of m.achinery and a con­ present duty and that proposed by the Committee on Finance. stant effort to. lessen cost of production. Mr. HOAR. I agree with the Senator from Vermont in regard to his general principle, but the point is precisely this: The manufacture of In answer to this question- pottery has now a very high protection and a protection under which it What is the prospect for an ext-ension of your indu try in this country? is living in this country. It has a high protection, in addition to the He answers: duty fixed in the law, by the bulky and fragile character of the article I see no reason why it should not be ext-ended if the present duty is adhered to. The duty of course is a low one, but as it has been the rate for some time protected, because the foreign importer has of course to incur the loss we have got used to it, and would rather have it remain as it is than take the by breakage and the extra cost of freight of the article, which is out of chances of any c}lange in the tariff. I can ge~ along with the tariff as it is. I proportion to its intrinsic value. The Tariff Commission put an in­ have introduced a. large amount of machinery, which I employ in the manufact­ ure of those goods, and I have been spending large sums of money in that way crease on this duty, but the Senator's committee differ with them and during the present year. il6Y it ought not to be increa ed. The argument which the Senator ad­ .. dresses to me might just as well be addressed to him by somebody Mr. President, here is a large manufacturer of this class of goods standing on the ground of the Tariff Commission, who might say, ''Why, who comes before the Tariff CommL<:sion and says that he is satisfied; the commission put on this duty for excellent workmen and excellent that the present duty is sufficient to protect him against the competi­ goods, and now you are cutting it down." The chairman of the Tariff tion of foreigners, and that he does not want to ee it changed. He can Commission might of course say, " I regret that the honorable Senator get along with it; and yet the Finance Committee, for some reason I from Vermont is cutting down the duty on an article upon which these know not what, following perhaps the Tarifl' Commission, increased the good .Americans are at work.'' It is a question not of principle but of duty on these articles 20 per cent., some of them, and some more than fact. The committee agree that they wish to have this duty remain that, in the face, as it were, of the manufacturers, whosaythey do not astheexistingtari.ffplaces it. We put on after the war a high increase need it and do not require it. I will therefore move at the proper time of the old duty. We all agreed to that. That is where I stand and to strike out the duty of 50 per cent. in line424 and insert 25 percent. that is where the Senator stands. The Senator, however, thinks that making it correspond with the plain white and undecorated ware men~ having abolished the allowance for breakage and so on, 10 per cent. tioned in the first clause of the schedule. should be put on to the existing nominal duty as an equivalent, and I :lt!r. COKE. Mr. President, this entll-e schedule is an advance of thinl-= 5 per cent. is enough to cover it. some 15 or 20 per cent. as reported by the committee over the rates of So, then, the mere question between me and the Senator is whether 5 the present tariff, and this in a bill which professes to reduce taxation per cent. is or is not a sufficient equivalent for the breakage and other and upon a class of products which are of universal use and coii.SUmp~ allowances which are now provided for under the existing law. There tion. I shall vote for every reduction which is proposed to any item is the point. To that I have had read, stating the fact that the gentleman in the schedule. I believe that it ought to be largely reduced. I can writing it is an importer, but a man of integrity and character, a very not conceive why so large an increase has been proposed by the com­ able and well-stated letter. That is the whole of this point, whether mittee. The manufacturers ofpottery, earthen-ware, and glass-ware, so these imporrers are right in their statements as to the equivalent for in­ far as I can learn from all the testimony aecessible, are satisfied with land transportation, breakage, &c. That is all there is to it. the tariff as it now stands. The country certainly hus not expected an Allow me one word further as to the Senator's suggestion- certainly increase of duties, but on the contrary a reduction. he will not adhere to it on reflection-that there may be other indus­ The tariff as it now stands on this schedule, if I believe evidence­ tries affecting the State which I represent that ought to have a high duty, which I have before me, is greatly too high. It is not necessary for the but if they do not go for a high duty that is not just somewhere else, fostering of American industry, while it does lay a very great burden they will not have it. upon the people. I have here an argument made before the Finance­ Mr. MORRILL. I made no uch suggestion. I merely suggested to Committee of the Senate by dealers in pottery, or rather a statement the Senator that there were articles in which his State was deeply in­ of facts and argument; and in that statement it is said: ierested which were protected where the article produced was by mar On page 12 of the report of the honorable Tariff Commission we find a table­ giving the production of earthen-ware for the decade ending with the year 1850. chine labor, and that this article was made entirely by hand labor. According to this there were already four hundred and eighty-four establish­ Mr. HOAR. That i a very stren to 30, and tariff, which is some 40 or 45 per cent., is enormously protective, yet at the proper stage of the consideration of the bill I shall move to change the Finance Committee have recommended here an increase of some 15- the duty on the fourth classification of stone-ware, &c., to the same or 20 per cent. average, and this upon product which are used univer­ duty as the .first enumerated, that is to say- sally by all the people of the whole country. Why so? \Vhy increase­ Brown earthen-ware. common stone-ware, gas retorts , a nd stone-ware not the tariff duties upon a schedule confessedly enormously protective, ornamented, 35 per cent. lid valorem.. satisfactory as it now stands to the manufaeturers and already oppress­ In the cla.use which reads- ive to the.consumers? It seems to me, sir, to be very wantonness in ·the exercise of a taxing power to add to the already existing burdens All ot.ber earthen, stone, and <'roekery ware, white, glazed, edged, printed, :painted, dippetl, or cream-eoloredl composed of earthy or mineral substances, upon this class of goods. J&ot spec!ally enum.emted OJ" proviaed for in this act, liO per rent. a.d valorem- The honorable Senator from Vermont [Mr. MoruuLL] says that no 1883. CO:NGRESSIO.r~AL REOOl\,D- SENATE. 1277

improvement occurs in the manufacture of this class of goods; that it that the duty under the proposed rates is substantially only 5 per cent. high«­ is all manual labor. The honorable Senator from North Carolina [l\Ir. than those under the present tariff, because of the proposed abolition of the duty on charges and commis ions. VANCE]just now read from testimony to show that machinery is largely The commission's justification for recommending this increase is that the con­ used, and at least one manufacturer testified before the Tariff Commis- dition of this industry is such a-s to make the increase absolutely necessary to sion that he was introducing largely new and improved machinery into its maintenance, and we are convinced that without the relief proposed there his work . :~~r~o~ :::tb=~:!:\~e~~c~~;-t s~~:s~absolute destruction-of the manu- However that may be, the fact that, under a tariff of 24 per cent., The statements made before the commission show that this industry is one of this industry showed a larger per cent. of increase and development very recent introduction; that at the time the present duties were imposed it had substantially no existence in this country, and that it-s establishment under the than it has ever shown since it was increased up to 40 or 45, of itself present rates could hardly have been accomplished but for the premium on gold, answers all the arguments made by gentlemen in favor of the protec- which, during and after the war, operated as an incidental prot~ction. Under tion of American labor and the development of American industry. the stimulus ofthe incidental protection the manufacture of white earthen-ware commenced less than twenty years ago, preceding attempts having re-sulted in If 24 per cent. would develop thi ~ industry at a more rapid rate than failure. · even 45 per cent. has done since, why add to the impost duty? The present tariff on this class of goods was not intended as protective in any Mr. President, confessedly, if the import duties are reduced reason- sense, as there was not a~ the time of its passage any such industry to protect, and the rat~ of duty was mcreaaed from 24 per cent. to 40 per cent. as a revenue ably, and importations encouraged, while the people will be getting the measure only. Refeningagaintothe comparativestatementoftheearthen-ware products cheaper, the Treasury will be losing no revenue. There is no business presented above, we find that alt.hough the manufacture ef white ware . bill h" h · · dg t d · · d art f did not commence until1863, the growth up to 18i0 was very much in excess of part o f th18 W lC , m my JU men , nee S reVlSlon, an no P 0 the growth of the succeeding ten years; while we believe, as indicated iB the the existing tariff law which, in my judgment, needs revision more statements made before us, that at present it is on the decline; and the small than this particular schedule, and instead of improving it by reducing value of the product in comparison with the capital and labor employed seems ll to indicate very severe competition in the business. the b ur d en o f taxa tion upon the peop1 e- fior they are b oun d to have a This is also, as we think, shown in the fact that although the foreign cost of the things embraced in this schedule-the duties are absolutely raised production has actually increased since 1860, the prices to the retail dealer and from 15 to 20 per cent., and that in a bill which professes t-0 reduce the consumer have decrea-sed, which we think is fully established by the clear state- ._~- ti I thin b t th nk t · "usti · this ments which have been presented by the representative-s of the industry, accom- b urd ens 0 f WtAa on. can see no g U e ra es lllJ ce m panied by a-ctual invoices of sales to retail dealers; and, we may add, that we schedule to the great mass of the people, and the most odious favoritism think a careful examination of t.he statements of the importers and dealers will to a few manufacturers. If we needed revenue there would be some lea.d to the same conclusion, for while some of these think prices are now higher plausibility in the argument in support of it, but we do not. The Treas- :!~~~e~~~~~~ and 1860, many of them admit that they are about the same or ury is overflowing and we profess to be trying to reduce our income. The reason of the reduction of prices since 1860 is proper matt~r for considera­ The Treasury not needing the money, and the industry as I have shown tion, and the commi ion is unable to indicate any cause except the competition . th · fd ti · tte 1 occasioned by manufacture in this country. The machinery used in this busi­ fro m the record not n eedin g prot e ct10n, e mcrease 0 U es 18 U r Y ness, unlike that used in almo!"t all others, seems to be incapable of material im- without a shadow of justification. provement; the potter's wheel oftrown stead of90. earthen-ware and common stone-ware, as these duties are already low, and the l\Ir. SEWELL. Will the Senator allow me to help him along? progress of manufacture in this country is such that notwithstanding the pro­ l\Ir. VANCE. Certainly. posed abolition of the duties on package..o;;, charges, and commissions, it is be­ lieved that the old rates 'vill afford a reasonable protection to the manufacture 1\-fr. SEWELL. There is to be added t.o that the cost of labor on the here. coal ancl clay and everything that is used in the production of the ar­ On white and printed earthen-ware, and on whit~ and decorated china, porce­ ticle. Tha.t which he quotes is simply what is paid out as wages at tiM lain, and parian ware, the commission recommends an increase of duty in each instance of 15percent., and also a change in the wording of the schedules, which, potteries. it is believed, is necessary for the purpose of more clearly de-scribing the articles Mr. VANCE . I did not catch the Senator's remark. subject to duty. Mr. SEWELL. I say the direct expenditure for labor amounts i;(, This recommendation as to increase of duties is largely more apparent than real, as it will be observed that the proposed abolition of duties upon packages, about 60 per cent. in the manufacture of pottery. The other 30 per inland freights, charges, and commissions affect-s this species of earthen-ware iu cent. is that which is represented in getting out the raw material, t~ general use, perhaps, more seriously than any other article em braced in the tariff coal, the clay, and other articles used. schedules, so that, as will be apparent from the statement of the president of the Pottery Dealers' Association, and substantially all statements made to the com­ l\Ir. VANCE. I suppose the cost of materials would cover that, and mission which bears upon the question, a duty of 40 per cent. under the present that is given here as "materials, $2,564,259." Certainly the potterl tariff" is substantially equal to a duty of 50 per cent. on these goods with the pro­ do not buy the material in the market and then pay for the getting of posed abolition of dutiable charges. To illustm.te, taking the" calculations on one hundred crates of earthen-ware, it out also. being u. fa.ir average of the goods as imported," in the statement of the president Mr. SEWELL. I make t.he statementthat it if; nearly all labor. of the Pottery Dealers' Association, the original cost is given at ~.019, on which l\Ir. VANCE. "\Yell there is a discrepancy somewhere. This is a tlle duty at 50 per cent. would be $1 509.50, while the dutiable basis on the same importation under the present tariff,1 with dutiable charges and commissions great matter to the people of the United States, for under this head, b:> added, is Sl,763, which at. 40 per cent. gives $1,505.20 a.s the u.mount of duty; 80 which I called the att.cntion of the Senate :l moment ago, ~ 1278 CONGRESSIONAL · RECORD-SENATE. JANUARY 17,. stone, or crockery-ware, &c., it will be seen that the importations great deal of care and attention, representing all parts of the com­ amount to $4,438,237.36; the duties received amount to $1,775,294.93, munity as well as the parts represented in the pottery and gl..1.~-ware · showing that that classification is the one most in use by the people of business, came to the conclusion that it was not wise to reduce the· the United States, and it is estimated, I believe, that there is manu­ present rate of duty; that the present rate of duty would enable these factured in this country three times as much as is imported. So that people to develop their industry and gradually to reduce the price, and this duty of $1,775,294.93 which is paid on the importation is trebled no doubt in a short time the rate. of duty may be reduced without when we come to· calculate the amount we pay upon the domestic injury to them; but they found it necessary in their revision of the product. So here we have struck no item in this bill more important tariff laws to base the rate of duty upon the actual cost at the place of to the great majority of the common people of this country. production, excluding from the foreign valuation all cost of boxing, of Mr. MAXEY. The general average of tariff on imported goods, as package, of breakage, and everything of that kind. They show by the law now stands, is about 43l per cent. That yields confessedly a their report that the effect of this change, and a wise change, in the very much larger revenue than is necessary for the payment of the in­ tariff laws so as to give a certain market value at the place of produc­ terest on the public debt, for providing for the sinking fund, and the tion as the basis of the computation of foreign value is a reduction oi current expenses of the Government. This bill professes to be a reduc­ 10 per cent. upon the foreign valuation, and consequently a reduction tion of the tariff, and yet we find here in this article now under con­ of the ~:\mount of duty levied upon the article caused by throwing out sideration not 43! per cent. but 60 per cent. is charged. Some of these of the estimate of valuation these items which enter into the cost of goods go into every house in all the length and breadth of this country. all importations as well as into the cost of the domestic production. Everybody uses china-ware, porcelain-ware, or something that is named The result was tha.t if they proposed a tariff containing the same rates here. An industry which can not stand on a protection of 50 per cent. as in the old tariff it would be a very· serious reduction of the duty on ought to go down, but I suppose that this is one of those infant industries these two articles, which is absolutely neces...<;ary for their maintenance, which need to be protected. It is one of the hungry daughters of the and they therefore, in order to compensate for this reduction, in one way horse-leech, and it has already learned to cry " Give, give ! " I have gave to this industry a. corresponding increase of the nominal rate of heard nothing but "give, give, give" from the people, and "give" to duty, but the actual rate of duty is no greater than it was in the old these protected industries from the beginning to the end of this bill. tariff. "When this matter came before the Committee on Finance it was Mr. President, we have in the State which I have the honor in part discussed very fully, and it was shown that the rate proposed by the to represent a great bed of kaolin, which experts have pronounced to Tariff Commission was perhaps 5 per cent. more than the old rate; and be of the most excellent quality and description, and in due course of therefore the Committee on Finance, in order to leave the duties on time factories will be raised there for the manufacture of china and these articles the same as they were under the existing tariff, reduced porcelain ware; but I say that if a fa.ctory can not stand with a pro­ the commission rate 5 per cent., so as to make the propo ed rate exactly tection coming out of the pockets of the people of 50 per cent. it ought equivalent to the present tariff rate on an industry which is languish­ to go down. .And where goods like these, which reach every house-in ing but has been productive of great good in the past. the land, from the palace of a lordly Vanderbilt or Gould down to the Mr. President, I say here to the Senate what is manifest by the con­ poor man out on the frontier of Texas, are used by everybody, it is curring testimony of all the persons engaged in this business, by the­ common justice and fair de.aling that a reasonable, and no more than a report of the Tariff Commission, by what I supposed was the unani­ reasonable, tariff should be laid upon them. mous opinion of the Committee on Finance, that this industry can not Therefore I shall favor the proposition made by the Senator from exist in its present condition ofinfancy unless the old rate is maintained; Kentucky, and would have done so if he had put the duty down to a and therefore when I myself conceded upon the arguments which were general average of·not exceeding 40 per cent. pre~nted to us a reduction of the nominal rate proposed by the com· Mr. SHERMAN. ThisScheduleBembracestwoarticlesonly,earthen­ mission, 5 per cent., I supposed that the committee were unanimous ware and glass-ware. Prior to 1863 there was no white earthen-ware that this industry should have a chance to live and struggle along. made in the United States of .America. It is therefore what Senators .Any reduction of this rate of duty upon any theory which may be­ call an infant industry; and yet we have in this country of ours a greater advanced, however plausible, which will put the duty below what it is. amount and a greater number and variety of articles which enter into now, practicallywilldestroythisindustry; whileifit is maintained by a the manufacture of these two things than any other country in the reasonable rate of protection it will be built up and grow stronger and world. In Texas, as the Senator says, in Missouri, in Indiana, in Ohio, stronger year by year, until not only can we manufacture the white­ in Pennsylvania, and in nearly every State there are pure white clays ware of Liverpool but we can manufacture the highest grade of this adapted to the manufacture of pottery, and latterly there has been dis­ ware, ware which combines the highest art of painting with the pro­ covered the finest possible article to make glass-ware out of. duction of beautiful ware. Under the effect of the tariff, and partfy because of the high price of The casein Indiana. was very marked, and the gentleman concerned gold added to the tariff duty during many years, there has grown up in in it and who had risked his fortune in developing the industry, said this country within the last twenty years an enermous industry. In distinctly that if the duty was reduced any further than it had been the State of New Jersey I do not know how many furnaces there are, proposed to be reduced he could not continue his establishment. I but in a single neighborhood in Ohio, called East Liverpool, there know that is the case with the small potteries scattered along the Ohio are now over one hundred furnaces engaged in manufacturing the River near East Liverpool; they caR not bear this reduction and live; most beautiful ware. In New Jersey I believe the production is still they will simply go out of the business. Their work is simply and larger. They draw from all parts of the country clay used in the manu­ solely the result of labor; and that the whole cost of the production is. facture of this article. They bring it from Missouri largely and from the labor and the interest on the capital employed is shown by the very other States. The result has been that ordinary china-ware such as is fact that it is made out of the earth-that it costs nothing, made out consumed by the mass of our people has been reduced to one-half and of these different kinds of clay carefully mixed; the various kinds~ in many cases to one-third its former value. Such has been already the with each other so as to make the article designed. They use entirely effect produced in the production of crockery in this country by home articles of .American labor, and there is no money involved in it except competition. Formerly all forms of ware were brought from Liverpool the interest on the rapital invested in producing this article and the and places in England. cost of building the furnaces. Every particle of the industry is sim­ In regard to glass-ware the result has been more rema1·kable still. ply .American labor seek-ing to build up a new industry for the first Mainly by the capital and ingenuity and ability of a Mr. DePauw of time established in this country within twenty years, and all they ask Indiana, who has established great glass-ware factories in Southern of Congress is to let them alone, to see whether or not they can develop Indiana, the price of the article has been greatly reduced, and ·the arti­ this industry as the cotton industry and other industries ha>e been cle produced here now is better than even the French plate-glass. I re­ developed. member a case where this article made in Indiana was brought in direct I say it would be cruel in the last degree to knock from under them competition not only as to quality but as to price with the article pro­ the props whicli have enabled them to build up this industry. It would duced in France, because formerly France had practically a monopoly be simply to destroy a large mass of .American capital and to tluow out of plate-glass. Now our .American product is gradually taking the of employment a multitude of .American laborers, merely to open up market and is supplying the wants of our own people at a greatly again the absolute monopoly of the English crockery-ware in this coun­ reduced mte. try. The French and the Belgians and the Hungarians, and also the­ When this question came before the Tariff Commission they found Germans have established higher forms of pottery. They excel in them. that although the progress had been remarkable and very great, yet The Bohemian ware probably is the most valuable; next to that is prob­ now the industry was languishing; and I know of my own knowledge ably the French ware, used mainly by the rich; but our people by im­ thatthatindustry,uponwhichthelivelihoodofthousandsofpeoplealong porting skilled laborers to instruct the native people in this production the banks of the Ohio River depends, is now languishing, and these peo­ have developed remarkable skill, and now in the city of Cincinnati there ple are not making any profit. It is so, I am informed, in New Jersey; is a pottery producing articles of vertu, article.s of taste, which adorn and it is well known that the glass-ware factories ;in Indiana are strug­ the homesteads of the poor as well as the rich, and this has been built gling for existence, and the gentleman whose name I have mentioned, up mainly by the energy and enterprise of ladies of taste who have de-­ who lost a million dollars in the attempt to establish it, is maintaining voted their time to the development of this beautiful industry. They it now barely at a reasonable and.what would be called a very small have but recently established a pottery which is confined to the burn­ profit. ing and producing the very highest forms of this class of ware, making­ The Tariff Commission, who seem to have given to this subject a. out of simple earth the most beautiful articles of ornament and ware. .• .

188"3. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE. 1279'

They have so cheapened the ordinary crockery of commerce that now duty will increase the revenue. The reduction proposed here would any poor family starting in life can eat from plates as good a-s any that increa...c:e our revenue, but it would destroy our home industry. I trust, were ever made in Liverpool, at a cost so insignificant that it would therefore, the Senate will take this schedule, which has been carefnlly· sca.rcely be realized, so that a vast quantity, a crate of these articles, gone over in all its details, reported by the Tariff Commission and re-· you may say, can now be sold from seventeen to twenty-frye dollars, ported by the Finance Committee. I am not at liberty under the rules containing an assortment of all the plates used in the ordinary home- of the Senate to refer to what has been done in the House of Repre­ steads of America. · · sentatives, but when their work comes before you you will see how The result of the destruction of this industry would be to compel us they have regarded it. It is not proper for me to do more now than to import these articles, simply because we will not give to our own refer to it in that way, but your committee and the Tariff Commission people a. reasonable chance to build up this industry. You say the have examined these details. I have not attempted to read to you the rates of duty are high. So they are, because those rates of duty are testimony on which that judgment is founded. levied upon the cost of the art.icle in Europe, which simply represents Mr. DAVIS, ofWest Virginia. l\Iay I ask my friend from Ohio a the cost of molding and forming these plates in their ordinary way. question? The rates are high because the cost of the mawrials which enwr into Mr. SHERMAN. . Certainly. their cpnstruction is very low indeed ; the cost of the clay is nothing ; Mr. DAVIS, of West Virginia. Shall I understand the Senator to. it-can be found almost everywhere in our country, as I said. It 'is the say that the rate proposed in the bill is not an increase of the present labor, the handiwork of our own people which has developed this in­ duty? · dustry in a most remarkable degree. The plaw-glass now which is Mr. SHERMAN. I said that it was not an increase; that although. made by Mr. DePauw is competing in the New York market with the the nominal rate was increased from 50 to 60 per cent. on one grade, ordinary plaw-glass of France, and the French had a monopoly of it and from 40 to 50 on the other, yet the reduction in the invoice value­ once. I remember when this competition occurred, the importer came caused by striking out from the invoice value the costs of freight, trans­ and examined the ware, went to Indiana, and finally said that he portation charges, commissions, and breakage, makes 60 per cent. upon could not compew with this Indiana plaw-glass, because the materials the invoice value framed under this new tariff law no higher than 50. that were used in the manufacture of plate-glass in Indiana were supe­ per cent. on the invoice value under the old law. rior to any that could be found in the world. And yet on account of Mr. DAVIS, of West Virginia. In other words, as the bill now stands. the difference in the price of labor between this country and Europe it the Senator thinks it is about equal to the present duty. would be very easy for them, unless our people have a chance to build Mr. SHERMAN. It was intended to be exactly equal. That was. up this industry, to break it down. I appeal to the Senator from In­ the purpose of the committee, and I appeal to my friend from Kentucky diana to say-he knows and lives among the people who have developed whether it was not expooted or designed when the reduction was made­ this industry-whether any further reduction or any change or tamper­ from 65 to 60 per cent. that the reduction was made on that ground?- ing with the substantial rates which have been fixed by law will not Mr. BECK. In answering the question now put, I will say that it brelk down that great industry which has marked the history of Indi­ was agreed, so far as the committee examined it, to make no increase­ ana perhaps more than any other in the development of her manufact­ on the present duty, and it was asserted that we had made no increase· ures. after reducing it down to the point the Senator from Ohio now has it.; I trust Senators will not deal carelessly with this question. Give at; and yet tables have been furnished us of importation after importa-­ eome faith at least to the unanimous testimony of your Tariff Commis­ tion, showing that we have in fact increased it, and that it ought to be- sion that placed these rates higher than we have placed them, because 55 instead of 60 per cent., all of which ba8 been furnished since the· we have reduced them somewhat, in deference to the argument that was committee acted. made before us. Why, sir, if you can notrely to some extent upon the Mr. SHERMAN. I ask the Senator from Kentucky whether it was; ju of the people employed in this industry; we have some r~.-rard these schedules, sometimes dividing the labor among themselves as sub­ for the revenue, for I say if you reduce this down you may make more committees, as members of the Committee on Finance and other com­ revenue, and this is one of the articles where a large reduction of the mittees often do, but these were all reported to the commission and CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE. JANUARY 17,

·were gone over in detail, and no doubt alterations made from time to dinary stimulus. And in the mechanical and manufacturing industries, espeCially those which have been long established, it would seem that the improvement~~ -time. Here is what the Tariff Commission say: in machinery and processes made within the last twenty years, a.nd the high scale This recommendation as to increase of duties is largely more apparent than of productiveness which has become a characteristic of their establishments, rreal, as it will be observed that the proposed abolition of duties upon packages, would permit our manufacturers to compete with their foreign rivals under a sub­ inland freights, charges, and commissions affects this species of earthen-ware in stantial reduction of existing duties • . general use perhaps more seriously than any other article embraced in t.he Entertaining these views, the commission has oug-ht to present a. scheme of :tariff schedules...t so that, as will be apparent from the statement of the president tariff duties in which substantial reduction hould be the distinguishingfeature. ...,fthe Pottery vealers' Association, and substantially all statements made to the The average reduction in rates, including that from the enlargement of the froo­ commission which bears upon the question, a duty of 40 per cent. under the list and the abolition of the duties on charges and commissions, at which the •. present tariff is substantially equal to a duty of 50 per cent. on these goods with commission has aimed, is not less on the ave~e than 20 per cent., and it is the 1the proposed abolition of dutiable charges. opinion of the commission that the reduction will reach 25 per cent. The reduo­ tion, slight in orne cases, in others not attempted, is in many cases from 40 to 50 Then they go on: percent. To illustrate, taking the "calculations on one hundred crates of earthen-ware, being a fair average of the goods as imported," in the statement of the president And yet in the face of that report the Senator from Ohio insists that of the Pottery Dealers' Association, the original cost is given at $3,019, on which we shall stand by the present law and shall reduce nothing when any­ the duty at 50 per cent. would be $1,509.50, while the dutiable basis on the same body says that he wants it kept up. In this particular case I am will­ importation under the present tariff, with dutiable charges and commissions added, is $3,763, which at 40 per cent. gives $1,505.20 as the amount of duty· so ing to stand by the present law, asking no other benefit for the oon­ that the duty under the proposed rates is substantially only 5 per cent. higher sumer·than the slight reduction on freight£ abroad, which is proved by than those under the present tariff, because of the proposed abolition of the duty the imports I have laid before the Senate to be only about 5 per cent., on charges and commissions. and to compemate for that we have voted a reduction upon some of the And in order to meet the argument and not to increase the duties on articles they use, important articles to them, of 75 per cent., on others these articles we threw off that 5 per cent., taking the estimate of the of 40 per cent., on others of 33 per cent., and placed others on the free­ Tariff Commission as just and correct. Having done that, having gone list. We give them all this without proposing any reduction below the into detail in all these matters, why is not that satisfactory to the Sen­ present law on their product, though they have the benefit of the reduc­ ate? If you may strike at random, breaking down one industry here tion of 20 or 25 per cent. on all the articles they themselves will have to and another industry there, you may create trouble in this country use. That I regard as being entirely satisfuctory to the producers of which you will hear of often again. earthen-ware. If it is not I am at a loss to comprehend the meaning My idea in regard to this revision of the tariff is to leave industries, of the report of the committee, and, as far -a.s I recollect, that is sub­ which are not unduly prosperous, which are merely making a living, stantially what, on the slight examination-for it was slight, of course-­ to stand upon the present law and reduce on all other articles raw in we made in the Committee on Finance, we expected to do. their nature which tend to cheapen prices in this country as far as pos­ 1\Ir. SEWELL. I desire to correct the Senator from Kentucky. I sible. A great many articles we have transferred to the free-list. In have no doubt he believes all that he states in relation to the reduction this way we have made a reduction of 10 or 15 per cent. made on articles in the tariff that are used by the pottery men, but the This matter must be arranged with care. You can not strike at the facts are that they do not use them at all. They do not use the arti­ multiplied industries of this great country at random by a 10 per cent. cles he refers to in the manufacture of pottery. reduction all around, because upon some duties you can take off more :Mr. VANCE. The statement I endeavored to controvert this morn­ than 10 per cent., and in some cases we have taken off 30 or 40 percent; ing has b.een again made by the Senator from Ohio [:Mr. SHERMAN], Perhaps in some cases we have gone too far, but in these cases where that nearly all the expense of the potteries is labor. I can not permit infant industries, interesting and valuable, those producing articles that to go unchallengP.d. If he will look at the statement prepared by which are used by every homestead in the land, where they have been the Tariff Commission, which has been referred to more than once this developed, and the effect of home production has been a decrease of morning, he will see that both labor and materials do not amount to 75 price one-half, we say, "Well done, good and faithful servant, give per cent. instead of being 90, as has been noo-ain and again stated, for them a chance, let them build up their industry," and I have no doubt labor alone. He goes on to put the whole of the merit ofthisdutyon that in t.yenty years from this time East Liverpool will be as famous the ground of protecting American labor, and he cites the glass manu­ for its production of home ware as old Liverpool was in fonner days. facturing interest of this country as an instance of that protection. I I have no doubt that Indiana plate-glass will be made in this country and happened this morning to come into possession of a circular issued by exported to foreign lands, if you will only give an opportunity to build the Malaga Glass and .1\Ianufacturing Company, 400 Chestnut street, "P this industry. They have got to experiment, and get gla.ss here and Philadelphia, dated December 28, 1882: get glass there and try it. It takes a long period of time to develop We now take pleasure in announcing that after four months of idleneea, an industry of this kind, and while it is in the process of development caused by striking workmen, we have resumed the manufacture of window glass at Malaga, New Jersey. no mde hand should be thrust upon it to kill it off. Better deal with We are working with French operatives, who have proved themselves equal, care with these industrial interests until the productions of our country if not superior, to the American workmen; and we feel confidence in asserting are as diversified as those of Europe. that we are now manufacturing glass that will compare favorably with any made in this country for window glass, picture, car, and photographic purposes. Mr. BECK. The Senator from Ohio has made a worse attack upon * * * * * * * the policy of the Tariff Commission than I think I have when he insists 11ALAGA GLASS .um M.u.IJFACTURING COMPANY. :that his idea. ofwbat we ought to do is to allow the present la)V sub­ That is the way that American labor is protected. Reference was :Stantially to stand. also made by the Senator from Ohio to a great manufacturing establish­ :Ur. SHERMAN. Only in the case of industries that will not bear ment in the State of Indiana by one :Mr. DePauw, and that was given a. reduction. as an instance where the American labor was protected, and the duty Mr. BECK. And he will never find an interest that thinks it can was commended for that reason. Now, I desire to read from the testi­ in any regard bear any reduction. I propo..._c::e to allow the present law mony of a man by the name of Bishop, who appeared before the Tariff to stand so far as these earthen-ware men are concerned, and I believe Commission-0. A. Bishop, an iron-worker of Chicago, lllinoi.s--who "it is entirely satisfactory to them. It is one of the few things as to remarked that he was born in the city, had never had but three months' which I am willing to allow the present law to stand. I will show education, and that the paper which he submitted to the Tariff Com­ wherein the Senator makes an attack on the commission, high protect- mission was written at his work-bench; and then he goes on to give an 1ve as they were, by reading what they say themselves ought to be done: account of his observations in relation to the protection of American Early in its deliberations the commission became conYinced that a substa.ntial labor. He says : reduction of tariff duties is demanded, not by a mere indiscriminate popular I will cite one or two cases in point. Some four yea rs ago the glass-blowers were receiving 1.50 per box for making glass, o.nd a good journeyman ~uld · lf::;n~rfo~~c!>!t~!ee~s;e~=~~~~:~~~~f~r ~h~h;r~~~~c~f~gn;~~:Sjlli~~ mo.ke from $175 to S225 per month (none too much, con idering the average life -dustrial defenses. Such a reduction of the existing tariff the commission regards of a glass-blower is only nine years). They bad a strong union; every man and not only as a due recognition of public sentiment and a measure of justice to boy was protected by it. They had a large treasury and could prevent compe­ .(!Onsumers, but one conducive to the general industrial prosperity, and which, tition runong themselves. But in an evil hour their employers discovered that -though it may be temporarily inconvenient, will be ultimately beneficial to the they could use the steamships which the workingman's genius and energy had -special interests affected by such reduction. No rates of defensive duties, except perfected, to whip him into the tra(!CS of slavish toil. They saw over in Belgium for the establishment of new industries, which more than equalize the condi­ a lot of idle glass-blowers. The high tariff had shut out their wares from ow -

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1883. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD- SENATE. 1281 I protective policy is in the interest oftheAmerican laborer. This very on the other side of the Chamber to ad-vocate some protection-it isan mnn cited here as running such a great establishment, the great bulk infant industry; it is truggling, truggling against foreign competition, of expense concerning which was wages, paid to the American laborer, struggling aaainst the pauper labor of Europe, and it must be fed, and went to Europe nnd imported his labor at a reduction of 2_00 per cent. when it has obtained the nece._~ry protection it growth i pro perous below what the Americans were charging him, put those men who and prices immediately come down; and '\-nth ample machinery there could not speak the English language and whom the citizens of that is a busy,-happy, contented, and well-dr ed people, and a church spire country refused to board or to entertain in their places, and the Amer- towers over all, and a school-bouse, with its imposing proportions, is icnn laborers with their families were turned adrift; to star-ve or hunt lifted against the sky on a hill top, and a lordly mansion somewhere something else to do ! That was protection against the pauper labor of belonging to the owner of it all, who is getting rich, and all the people Europe! That is the way the whole thing works. Why, 1\Ir. Presi- happy and pro perous and o forth; and now, if you withdraw this dent, there is another case cited by this same man. protection it will die, it will perish and everything v.ill ri e in price In a conversation I had not long agQ with a journeyman hatter, he said: again. That is the same old story I ha-ve heard again and again and "Our hat factories at home (Birmingham, England) are all closed up and have again-and I expect to hear it until the 4th day of March-every time been so long that the grass has gro\Y~ in the fa~tory streets. I saw th~t nearJy an attempt is made to lower duties all of the hats. sold there were mad m the Uruted States, and reasorung log1c- · . . . ally, I came to the conclusion that trade was brisk in America, and I would go No one on the face of the eart-h doubts that if you will g1-ve a man there. I scraped together cash enou~h topaymyfareouttoConnecticut, whe~e a monopoly, and will hut out all competition from him and oblige a large factory was locat-ed, and RJ?plied for work, only to J;>e told th.at they did people to buy his goods at a higher price than they can o-et them any- not employ many men, mo tly gul and boy. , and machines; a g~rl at $4 per . . o . week could make more hat-bodies in a day with a machine than could ten men where else, he will get ncb, and he can afford (whether he does 1t or by hand a few years ago. And to my horror I realized my ituation; my seven not) to pay his laborers higher prices than other people and he can years' apprenticeship was wasted; my trade which I had made such a sa-crifice build h 1 h d build h h db b' th · t to a.cquire was lost, and I could ee but one way for us to get the trade back to . • C 00 - ouses, an can . . C urc es, an . e can ave e mces my home, and that wa t-o invent more perfect t-ools and employ our little babies tnne m the world. The question 18, where does 1t all come from? It to tend them." all comes out of the pockets of the consumers, a a matter of course. Thi too was in the interest of American labor. And that also illus- ~Ir. Pr ident, if we are to do anything for the reliefof the people by trates another branch of the false political economy injected into this this bill we ought certainly to go forward and d9 it, and we ought cer­ wbole question, which attributes the decline in the price of everything tainly to have some regard for the interests of the Government in ra:i&­ to the blessings of the tariff instead of the invention of ma~hinery and ing the revenue necessary for its support. It seems to me that our whole the progress made in the sciences and arts. legislation and ol.ir whole time here should not be employed in consult- :Mr. President, this pottery business is spoken of as an infant in- ing bow the people of this country may be taxed to sustain some one dustry. I wish for a moment, if the Senate please, to show you when man's pri-vate interest or a dozen men's private interest or the private this infant commenced taking in pabulum, and how long it has contin- interest of any particular community; and yet that is ju t what we are ned to imbibe thereof at the public expense, increasing the appetite of doing; that is the whole course of our legislation. the infant from year to year. But, 1\Ir. President, I have digressed from the subject under consid- It began in 1789, at which time it had a tariff of 10 per cent. I sup- eration. 1\Iy wish wa simply to say that the whole subject of pottery, pose it was on spoon-victuals then, or was sucking at an artificial bottle. the cost of labor and of the material together, does not reach quite 75 It was changed subsequently to 15 ~nd to 17}per cent. Then it began per cent.; and it is clearly shown that the employers, whene-ver they to have partially solid food, such as mush or hominy, or something of can, employ foreign labor, to the detriment and exclusion of American that kind. In 1812 it was put at 35 per cent. You see the infant wa labor; and as there is a tax on the goods of the foreign pauper coming growing in his appetite very rapidly. In 1816 it took a relapse and went into this country, there will be no protection to American labor until ba~k to 20 per cent. In 1842 it got better and got up to 30 per cent. there i a tax on the pauper himself to pre-vent his coming in. That is In 1857 it relapsed again to 24 per cent.; in 1861 to 25 per cent.; in 1862 hown in the case of De Pauw. Whene-ver a man can get cheaper goods to 35 per cent. ; in 1864 to 40 per cent. ; and in 1874 to 50 per cent., and manufu.etured by bringing in foreigners he will do o, and the American is not satisfied stilL labor may shift for itsel£ All that I want, all that I long for, and all That is the history of this American industry, beginning when Con- that I lal>or for and all thnt I live for politically is to see the day come gress in 1789 placed a protective duty on pottery-for I suppose there when the American workingman will no longer be made a dupe of, but was a pottery in existence then, or Congress would not have legislated will ee that these taxe levied in his name are a fraud upon him a.nd for it, beginning almost a hundred years ago, ninety-four years ago-ru1d for the purpo. e of enriching the manufacturer who puts the tax in his it hns continued to feed all the time. own pocket. Thissameman fromwhom I havebeenreading, Hon. J. HartBrewer, 1\Ir. SLATER. 1\Ir. President, in connection with what the Senator whom!deanoration before the tariff convention in New York,· goes on from North Carolina has been saying I desire to call attention to sub-­ to explain the whole thing that was before mysterious to me; that is stantial fa~ts which, I think, throw a little light upon what protection to say, bow a high protective duty which lowered prices so much more is and who claim protection. I do this at the risk of being taken t& rapidly than free trade, could at the same time maintain the prices of task again for the use of figures which hn-ve been placed before us by­ labor ; and bow a man working in this country could compete on pau- the Tariff Commission; but I can not understand why they should oo per terms advantageously and make money with his own people at home placed before us if they are not to be used, and to be used legitimatelyt but could not compete on the same terms with foreign paupers, but would as it would eem they were intended to be used by the commission be ruined. This is explained by that same gentleman in this way : itsel£ I am often asked the question, "Don't you think you are getting too many I find on page 104 of the Tariff Commission s report a chedule under potteries in this country?" My answer always is, No, the more tt.e merrier. It the head of" me~hanical and manufacturing industries of the United 1s with a growing industry as with all things else-necessity knows no law. States, &c." Glancing over the column of the various manufactures When competition in plain goods brings the price down below a. living profit trade tretches out its feelers and twines around a higher and more ornamental there referred to, I find that the output for 18 2 is 5,696,677,060, all branch. So the tree of beauty climbs. Art grows this way, by labor, of necessity. of w hlch has had the benefit of a protection under our present laws. It only can come through experience, wealth, and culture. B f1 • to tb tariff hedul fi · h d · tabl 26 I fi d th t No one should fear home competition; the only thing that kills, absolutely Y re ernng e sc e urnlS e US m e · n a annihilates,isforeigncompetition unchecked by protective law. Homecompe· this cla of mechanical industries for 1882 received a uniform protec­ tition creates new fields, new products, higher gra-des, so that all ca.n live, with tion of 42 per cent. Then carrying out the calculation I find that these adequate protection. Now, the difference between the cost of labor here and industries received in round numbers the beneficial effects of tariff leg­ abroad is not the difference between free trade and adequate protection. islation to the amount of 1,627,622,018, a sum more than 100,000,000 Now, sir, the whole thing is explained there. Competition is not in- greater than our interest-bearing bonded debt of the United States. jurious because it is competition, but it is only injurious according to And looking again to it I find that the amount received at the Treasury the nativity of the competitor. We can compete here with each otller in 1882 was $215,000,000 and something more. In other words, the if we bring the price of calico down to one-fourth of a cent a yard, and people of the United States are paying to these protected industries still live and still make money, and the manufacture would still be '7.50 to get $1 into the Treasury of the United States. It was sup­ profitable and the wages paid our laborers would still be higher than posed that something happened last fall in the November elections, and those paid in Europe; and there will not be pauper labor by any man- this is the reason of it. The people are beginning to understand what ner of means; but if competition from abroad brings down the price of protection is and who bears the burdens of protection. the same calico or any other article, although it did not bring it down Mr. MORGAN. Mr. President, the discussion of this branch of the nearly to one-fourth of a cent a yard, we should be ruined, because it tariff seems to have brought directly up various phases of the doctrine would "kill and annihilate us." of protection. It seems to have two sides to it, in which capital is in The foreign competition annihilates and ruins, but tbehomecompeti- controversy with the consumer and also in controversy with the oper­ tion is the life of trade! Thatistheargument ina nutshell, andamore atives, the men employed in making manufactures of various kinds. ridiculous and absurd set of propositions I have never known in my I would naturally help those who belong to the class of consumers, in­ life. In the first place it is that the protective tariff ~bsolntely brings asmuch as there are not a great variety of manufactures in my section down the price of everything, and in the second placethnthowever low of country; but I have always believed that a high protective tariff the price goes, provided that pricecomesfromdomestic competition, it bore more severely upon the men who are employed in manufactures, is all lovely and we make money! Is not that a handsome set of propo- who give their skill, their genius, their labor, and their sa~rifices of sitions to draw to? They comprise thewholea.rgument in this case. every kind to the building up and conducting of these industries, than The RaJlle old storv i.~ again gone over every time a. g&ntleman rises on almost any other class that could be named. A very intelligent XIV- 81 1282 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD- SENATE. JANUARY 17, gentleman, Mr. William R. Wright, of Philadelphia, president of the bosom-and the doing of everything which has any effect and tendency Association of Dealers in Pottery in the United States, made an address to lift them up and put them on as high ground as any other people in before the Tariff Commission at Buffalo, New York, and he called atten-. the world can occupy. They deserve it. They toil day in and day out; tion in that address to a memorial which had been sent by the oper­ they are honest and faithful laborers; they cut themselves off from ative potters of the city of Trenton, New Jersey, to the Senate and every opportunity of enjoyment of what passes through the world dur­ House of Representati>es; and as his quotation from that is very brief ing their hours of labor; they find themselves constrained by actual I will read it: necessity under the influences of a high tariff to limit their personal ex­ To tlw Senate and Hotu;e of Representati1:es: penditures down to starvation points, and while it may be true that We. the operative potters of the city of Trenton, being convinced by experi­ under our system they get more dollars and more cents for a day's ence that a high rate of duty on crockery-ware yields no benefit financially to the workingman and is inimical to his interests in Us effects in increasing the work than laborers do in other countries, yet it is certainly true that price of living generally, respectfully petition your honorable bodies for such a half the money in other countries would buy for them more than they revision of the tariff as will reduce the rates on crockery t-o a revenue ba-sis. can buy with the whole sum here. We respectfully submit that the only plea upon which a high prdtecti ve tariff What is it that they are trying to do? It is to improve, to de>elop, ~n be justified is that it enables the manufacturer to pay better wages to the laborer than he receives in European countries, and that the artisan thus shares to increase, to prosper, to grow in every good respect and in every worthy in the benefit of a higher price which protection allows the manufacturer to ob­ way. Then, in order to enable them to do that we must put our laws, tain. This not being the case, a tariff levied in the name of " p1·otection to .Amer­ so far as we can control these subjects by law, upon a basis which will ica?~ indtu;try" is a false pretense and a delusion. It is highly injurious to the workingman when his fair share of its benefits make the money that they receive for a day's wages, whether it is a half are withheld and all its bene.fits are appropriated by the manufa-cturer, because dollar or whether it is a dollar and a half, buy more than can be bought it strengthens the task-master, while its mdirect result-s being to increase the price of all necessaries, it weakens the task-doer. anywhere else in the world. Ifwe putthelaboringpeople of this country In its practical operation it is monopoly for the benefit of the few at the ex­ connected with manufactures upon that foundation, they will not only pense of the many. become prosperous: but they will become happy and contented, and we Such being our experience, and believing that, with the exception of the privileged few who reap its fruit, a high tariff entails disadvantages for which shall have no more of those strikes which have disturbed the equanimity it offers no compensat-ion, we respectfully ask for such a reduction as will de­ of this country during the last seven, eight, or ten years, and indeed stJ"OY monopoly and encourage healthy competition; and your petitioners will, a great many more years than that. as in duty bound, ever pray, &c. I must here express my regret that the Committee on Education and I do not know, considering the source from which that petition ema­ Labor of the Senate have not probed into the question which was com­ nated, that a. more eloquent speech could possibly be made in behalf of mitted unto them at the last session and ascertained from men like the operatives in the potteries of the United States than is there presented. Mr. Wright and from others like the man from whom the Senator from It comes directly from home; it comes from the men interested, the men North Carolina read a while ago exactly the condition of affairs as whose skill contributes to the production of articles of high value in between the operatives and the employers. There is the unrevealed the line of pottery; men whose labor is utilized by capital for the pur­ field of truth into which we are trying to dig and to probe to-day· and pose of the production of these articles of value, and men who, it ap­ if that whole subject could be laid open with the frankness and intel­ pears according to their own statement, are almost entirely ignored in ligence which this gentleman, 1\fr. Wright, po esses, and has exhibited the benefits of the high protective tariff. I do not know any way by in his remarks before the commission and in the petition which he which we can measure the rights of the capitalist and the rights of the there advocated, we should be far less at a loss to know what to do for operative in the production of any kind of manufacture. Youmaypass the protection of the American laborer. I am for protecting him, but a law by which it shall be said that thecapitalistisprotected to the ex­ I am, in the language of this petition, forgiving him honest and genuine tent of 50 per cent. on his capital invested, and that he shall divide 25 protection. I am not for allowing the name of protection to American per cent. of that with _the operative; ~ut that law would be unconsti­ industry to be used as a false pretense and a delusion for the purpose of tutional and in the nature of commum.sm, and we should never >enture enabling the capitalists of the country to get the advantage of all the to enact a statute of that kind. protection under the tariff system and refuse to divide with the men Now, in what way is this petition of the potters of Trenton, New J er­ who do the work and furnish the skill and the taste which brings them sey to be answered otherwise than by a reduction of the tariff on pot­ the money. tery to a revenue standard? They know perfectly well that if it is so These are the reasons which have caused me to be more willing than reduced they will not be put out of employment, for the world demands otherwise I should be to reduce the general average and range of tariff so much pottery; clays are at hand in New Jersey, and if they are not protection in this country. It is not merely because I represent the they are convenient in Alabama in great abundance for the manufacture consuming cla-ss and that that class desires to get out.of all other oper­ of the very best description of wares that can be produced in any coun­ ative classes a large amount of their values and their earnings at~ small try this side of China, and I do not know but what our wares are as price, but the intermediary, the man who gives his skill, as in the case good-as some of those. These men know that the demand for pottery read by the Senator from North Carolina, seven years' apprenticeship to and for the skill and taste with which they make it and decorate it will the promotion of a particular line of industry, after these things have always·supply them with a sufficient amount of employment, and that been done, deserves that Congress shall do for him all that it can, and at living wages. They know that they ca.n not get a division of profits that in no grudging spirit. When we find that we can benefit such men "\vitlithe men who furnish the capital and who receive the direct and only in one way, and that is by chea,pening the duties upon the articles actual benefits of protection. They know that no law can be passed on which they and their families must subsist, and which they may use here to compel the capitalist, who receives the protection, to divide his and must use in order to make a decent appearance in the world, then, profits with them. Then they resort naturally and properly to the sir, does not duty point out to us clearly the path which we must follow only other means by which their earnings and their income shall have not only in respect to the consumer but also in respect to the operative? some 1·easonable approximation to the amount of actual value that they There is a perfect identity of interests between the consumers and the confer upon the articles in the making of which these large amounts of operatives in this country, because the expenditures of the operatives are capital are employed. What is that? It is the reduction of the general in the same line with the expenditures of the consumers ; they use the rates of the tariff, so that the living of that man and his family may be same things ; their families consist of the like membership ; their wants cheapened. That is the only resource the man has got in the world, and their necessities are the same·; their aspirations and their hopes of and well might the Senator from North Carolina congratulate the coun­ cultivation and improvement are the same ; and they are allied cla es. try that _the workingmen of this land are beginning to understand the The capitalists of this country, under a false pretense and a delusion, actual reasons of this proposition; that they are b~ginning to see that claim an alliance with the operatives, when the true alliance is between in the enactment of laws for protection there is no possibility of con­ the consumer and the operative and not between the capitalist and the ferring upo_n the laboring men of this country engaged in manufactures operative. The capitalist uses his power to crush both classes. There­ any reasonable share of the bounties and benefactions of the Govern"" fore, when I argue in fa>or of low rates of duty, measUl'ed by thestand­ ment otherwise than by reducing those articles of necessity and those srd of revenue, myargumentgoes justasfarfortheprotectionand benefit articles of comfort and those articles of luxury also which they desire of the operative in these factories as it does for the consumer who pro­ that they and their families may enjoy in common with the people of duces the raw material only. the United States. :Mr. MORRILL. We have now had more than four hours of debate I am a little opposed to the doctrine which deprives the laboring man on a single item of this bill, which I think ought not to have occupied and his wife and his children of the benefit of what we term luxuries. over thirty minutes, and we might have obtained in that time all the I think it is the right of every young woman in this countq, and every information we have received. I hope now we may be permitted to young man too, to grow up in the enjoyment of everything that enables have a vote. that young person to make a better appearance, to have a better educa­ 1\fr. MORGAN. I should like to sa.y in reply to that stereotyped re­ tion, and to have richer food and in more abundance, and to have all mark of the honorable Senator from Vermont, that if he was half as the facilities which society makes necessary for the introduction of that economical of the expenditures of the people of the United States as he person comfortably into any class or range of company to ~hich · he or is ofthe time of\ the Senate we should be very happy throughout the- she may be admitted. I do not believe in placing beyond their reach whole country. . all that may contribute to the adornment of the person and the culti­ Mr. EDMUNDS. I should like to inquire whether it would be in vation of the mind and the cultivation of the taste, the elevation of the order to move that there be a tax of 50 per cent. ad valorem on debatej pride, if you will have it so-for that is a noble sentiment in the human in order to protect the industry of debate in this country? [Laughter. -- - -

1883. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD- SENATE. 1283

Mr. PLUUB. In reply to the Senator from Vermont [Mr. EmiU}."DS] ing aJJ.Swered to his name, the amendment can not be moved, but it is I wish to ask him what he .thinks such a tax would actually yield if it usual in such a ca e to regard the call as not having commenced. was based on_ the value of the debate? (Laughter.] l\Ir. PLUl\IB. I was not aware that an answer was given to the Mr. EDJ\IUNDS. That is a question for the Treasury Deparlment; call, or I should not have propo ed the amendment. I withdraw it. I cannot say. The PRESIDING OFFICER. The Secretary will proceed with the Mr. PLUMB. If a specific duty were levied I think it might realize roll. something, but an ad valorem dut;y would yield nothing. The roll-call was resumed. The PRESIDING OFFICER (Mr. INGALLS in the chair). The ques­ l\fr. FARLEY {when his name wa called). I am paired with my tion is on the amendment offered by the Senator from Kentucky [Mr. colleague [~fr. MILLER, of California]. If he were here, I should vote BECK). ''yea.'' Mr. BECK called for the yeas and nays. ·l\fr. G.A.. RLAND {when his name was called). I am paired with the The yeas and nays were ordered, and the Principal Legislative Clerk Senator from Vermont [l\Ir. EDMmros]. If he were here, I should ...-ote proceeded to call the roll. ' 'yea.'' Mr. FARLEY (when his name wa called). I am paired with my ~Ir. LATER (when Mr. GROVER'snamewascalled). l\1y colleague colleague [Mr. MILLER, of California]. I do not see him in his seat. (l\fr. GROVER] is paired with the Senator from Louisiana (l\Ir. KEL­ If he were here, I should vote "yea." LOGG]. I have transferred my pair to my colleague. Mr. JACKSON {when his name was called). I am paired with the Mr. JACKSON (when his name was called). I am paired with the Senator from Maine [Mr. FRYE]. If he were present, I should Tote Senator from Maine [Mr. FRYE). "yea." l\Ir. JONES, of Florida {when his name was called). I am paired Mr. JONES, of Florida {when his name was called). I am paired with the Senator from Illinois [Mr. LoGAN). If he were here, !should with the Senatorfromlllinois[Mr. LoGAN]. Ifhewerehere, I should vote ' 'yea.'' vote " yea." · Mr. WALKER {when his name was called). I am paired with the Mr. SEWELL (when Mr. :McPHERSON'S namewa called). I desire Senator from New Jersey [Mr. l\IcPHERSo~]. If he were here, I should to announce that my colleague [Mr. l\fcPirnRSo:~J is paired with the vote "yea. " Senator from Arkansas (l\fr. W .ALKER] on this question. · The roll-call wa concluded. Mr. SLATER (when his name was called). I am paired with the l\Ir. ALLISON. I am paired with the Senator from Delaware [~Ir. Senator from Louisiana [Mr. KELLOGG]. Otherwise I should vote BAYARD). ''yea.'' The result was announced-yeas 20, nays 27; as follows: 1rfr. WALKER (when his name was called). I am paired with the YEAS-20. enatorfrom New Jersey [:Mr. McPHERSON]. If he were here, he would Barrow, George, Maxey, Ransom, vote ''nay'' and my vote would be ''yea.'' Beck Groome, Morgan, Saulsbury, The roll-call was concluded. Camden, Hampton, Pendleton, Slater, Cockrell, Jonas, Plumb, Vance, Mr. ALLISON. I am paired with the enator from Delaware [l\Ir. Coke, Lamar, Pugh, Vest. BAYARD]. I do not know how he would vote on this question, but if NAY8-27. he were here, I should vote "nay." · .Aldrich, Davis ofW. Va., Lapham, Rollins The result was announced-yeas 21, nays 29; as follows: .Anthony, Dawes, McDill Sawyer', Blair, Harrison, :Mcl\Iilh.n, Sewell, YEA8-21. Oameron ofPa., Hawley, Mahone, Sherman, Barrow, Coke Lamar, Saulsbury, Cameron of Wis., Hill. l\Iiller ofN. Y., Voorhees, Beck, Gar!a'nd, Maxey, Vance, Chilcott, Hoar. Morrill, Windom. Butler, George, 1\Iorgan, Vest. Conger, Ingalls, Platt, Call, Grover, Plumb, Camden, Hampt-on, Pugh, .A.BSEXT-29. Cockrell, Jonas, Ransom, .Allison, Farley, Ja{}kson, Mitchell, Bayard, Ferry, Johnston, Saunders, NAY8-29. Brown, Frye, Jones of Florida, VanWyck, Aldrich, Dawes, Lapham, Sawyer, Butler, Garland, Jones of Nevada, Walker,· .Anthony, Edmunds, McDill, Sewell, Call, Gorman, Kellogg, Williams. Blair, Groome, McMillan, Sherman, Davis of Ill., Grover, J,ogan, Cameron of Pa., Harrison, :Mahone, Voorhees, Edmunds, Hale, McPherson. Cameron of Wis., Hawley, 1\liller of N.Y., Windom. Fair, Harris, 1\Iiller of Cal., Chilcott, Hill, Morrill, So the amendment was rejected. Con~r, Hoar, Platt, DaviS of W. Va., Ingalls, Rollins, l\fr. BECK. In line 419 I moTe to trike out ''fifty-five'' and to in­ .A.BSENT-26. sert "fifty," so as to make the rate of duty 50 per cent. ad valorem, .Allison, Frye, Jones of Nevada, Saunders, which is the present law; and5percent. in addition is a sum sufficient Bayard, Gorman, Kellogg, Slater, to cover all that could be possibly claimed for striking off crates, if we Brown, Hale, Logan, VanWyck, do strike them off, which we have not yet done. Davis of lll., Harris, McPherson, is Fair, Jackson, Miller of Cal., ;u\fae::s. The PRESIDING OFFICER The question on agreeing to the Farley, Johnston, Mitchell, amendment of the Senator from Kentucky [l\fr. BECK]. Ferry, Jones of Florida, Pendleton, Mr. ALDRICH. I desire to call the attention of the Senator from So the amendment was rejected. Kentucky and the Senate to a tatement made by l\fr. William R. The item from lines 414 to 417 was agreed to. Wright, a. gentleman whom the Senator from Alabama has just quoted The PRESIDING OFFICER. The reading will proceed. in a laudatory manner, upon the question of the cost of packages and The Acting Secretary read lines 418 to 420, as follows: inland freight. On page 761 of the testimony Mr. Wright shows that a China, porcelain, parian, and bisque ware, plain white, and not ornamented or calculation made on a fair average of one hundred crates of earthen-ware decorated in any manner, 55 per cent. ad valorem. imported, the cost of the packages and straw was 13 per cent., and of in­ Mr. BECK. My motion covers that line, making it 45 per cent., the land freight 6} per cent., making the aggregate co t of the e two items present law. . 19-i per cent. In the same report, page 2291, in a statement made by The PRESIDING OFFICER. The amendment is to strike out ''fifty- two hundred and fifty persons and firms, importers and dealers, through­ five" and insert "forty-five." out the country, embracing almost all the States in the Union, they say: Mr. BECK. I want the yeas and nay on that. We ask for the abrogation of duty on packing charge , &c., because on the lower grades of white and printed earthen-ware, majolicaiand Bohemian glass­ The yeas and nays were ordered. · ware, on which the nominal duty is 40 per cent., the actua duty collected on the The Principal Legislative Clerk proceeded to call the roll, and l\Ir. cost of the good amounts to from 70 to 80 per cent., and we have every reason ALDRICH answered to his name. to believe that none outside of tho e who are engaged in the importation of these goods have, and even those who enacted the laws respectin~ thereto had, the l\1r. PLUMB. What is the proposition? remotest idea of how onerous the packing charges, inland freight, &c., bea.r on The PRESIDING OFFICER. The Secretary will report the amend­ the original cost of the goods. ment. This is testimony before the Tariff Commission from the very gentle­ The PRINCIPAL LEGISLATIVE CLERK. In line 419itis proposed to men who have been quoted on the other side upon this question. strike out "55 per cent. " and to insert '45 per cent.;" so as to read: Mr. BECK. I only desire to say that I haveplaced thetestimonyon China, porcelain, parian, and bisque ware, plain white, and not ornamented :fileoftwentyorthirtycaseswhere 5percent. covered it; besides we have or decorated in any manner, 45 per cent. ad valorem. not taken off any charges from the crates, and I judge from the way the Mr. PLUl\IB. I move to amend that proposition by making the duty Senate is voting now we do not propose to do it, although there is a 50 per cent. ad valorem. clausewhen we come toit that Senators will haveachance to vote upon. Mr. ALDRICH. I have answered to my name on the roll-call. I assume that tho e gentlemen who have Toted for protection will vote Mr. MORRILL. The roll-call had commenced. for protection upon crates a well when it comes to that. The PRESIDING OFFICER. As a strict question of parliamentary l\Ir. PLUMB. I voted to reduce the duty on these various articles law-- of china, &c., so far as they have already been voted upon, and I ex­ Mr. PLUMB. I withdraw the amendment. pect to keep that up. I desire to say, however, now, more particularly The. .:fRESIDING OFFICER. The Senator from Rhode Island hav- with reference to the argument adduced upon this question, that I have 1284 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD- SENATE. JANUARY 17, yet to hear a single word uttered: in regard to the interest of the class ous processes to do those things which were not thoroughly understood­ of people who have got to pa.y these taxes. The Senator from Ohio I beg of them to consider that the people are watching this proceeding, argued laboredly and ably as to the interests of the people who manu- · and that they want no higher taxes, but lower taxes, and thn.t in giv­ facture, but I have yet to learn that a single person who is interested ing the protection for American industry they want to have a decent in this matter from the basis of the tax-payers has ever been heard be­ chance for a class of people who by reason of their calling can not be fore the commission, or that his interest has been considered in the protected at all, but who have got to take their chances in the markets slightest degree. It i simply what is necessary to keep these people of the world for their product, hardproducts to raise, expensive prod­ going and to give them an ample and plethoric profit upon their labor ucts to get to market, and in the production of which there is the and their capital. smallest margin of profit. I am not willing to accept that alone as the ba-sis upon which we I was talking with a farmer from Massachusetts to-day about this should proceed. I am not will,ing to consider in connection with this thing. He said he had as good a farm as there was in the old Bay matter the importer at all ; I am willing to leave him entirely out; but State, and yet he said that he could barely make both ends meet, and I would be glad to hear from somebody who is interested in this from he complained to me that one of the reasons why he could not do so the basis of the tax-paying standpoint, and then strike a difference per­ was because everything else that surrounded him was so much pro­ haps between him and the person interested from the manufacturing tected that it simply took the difference between profit and loss in his sta.ndpoint, and see if we couJd not get something that was reasonably calling and left him a very slim chance indeed from year to year. equitable. The PRESIDING OFFICER. The question is on the amendment I venture the prophecy now that any tariff bill which proceeds en­ offered by the Senator from Kentucky [Mr. BECK] to strike out "55 tirely and exclusively, as this seems to do, upon the basis of the per­ per cent. ad valorem'' and insert ' ' 50 per cent. ad valorem.'' son who is to manufucture and who is to receive the profits, and any l\fr. MORRILL. I ask for the yeas and nays. report which isba ed solely upon counsel with that class of people, will The yeas and nays were ordered, and the Principal Legislative Clerk not become a 1aw. Not only will it not probably become a law, but proceeded to call the roll. what is worse it will beget , I think, a mo t unhappy state of feeling Mr. FARLEY (when his name was called). I am paired with my in the public mind in regard to what is proposed for the people of this colleague [1\fr. 1\'lrr.LER, of California] on this question. If he were country in the shape of a taJ.Tif bill. I' think it would be wise to mod­ here, I should vote ''yea.'' erate to some extent the demands and exactions of tho e who manu­ l\Ir. GARLAND (when his name was called). I am paired with the faeture, and t.o consider to some extent the interests and wishes of those Senator from Vermont [Mr. EDMUNDS]. If he were here, I should people who have got to pay the taxes, if they are to be levied at all. vote ''yea.'' With that idea, not because I assume to know more about it than 1\Ir. JACKSON (when his name was called). I am paired with the anybody else, but because I think the truth usually lies between ex­ Senator from Maine [l\Ir. FRYE]. If I were not paired, I should vote tremes, I propm e to ...-ote so far a I have any vote to gi...-e, for a reduc­ " yea.' tion of the tariff upon every single item that is proposed in this bill, Mr. JONES, of Florida (when his name was called}. I am paired :mdnotto ba e anincrea e ofduty upon theoutcry ofmanufacturersthat with the Senator from illinois [Mr. LOGAN]. If he were here, I should they c:m not live unle they are protected. . vote ''yea.'' The Senator from Ohio. advanced what seemed to me a very novel l\Ir. WALKER (when his name was called). I am paired with the argument. He said because trade was dull we ought to put up the duty. Senator from New Jersey [Mr. McPHERSON]. If he were here, I should In other words, up to within about six months these people have been vote "yea." making large profits in the manufacture of the e various wares, but in The roll-call having been concluded, the result was announced-yoos the last six months trade has been dull. It s~med to be an extraor­ 2'2, nays 27; as follows: dinary argument indeed that at a time when goods could not be sold at YEAS-22. all and consequently thel'e wa a cessation in their manufacture we Barrow, Coke, ~raxey, Saulsbury, Beck, George, Morgan, Slater, should remedy that disea e by putting up the duty. If the basis upon Butler, Groome, Pendleton, Vance, which we are to proceed is that every time h-ade is dull we shall pro­ Call, Hampton, Plumb, Vest. ceed to turn the screw upon the people who are paying for these things Camden, Jonas, Pugh, Cockrell, Lamar, Ransom, and raise the duty in fa~ or of the men who are manufacturing them, I venture the hope that no tariff bill will be passed. NAYB-27. I think it would be an outrage upon the people of the United States; Aldrich, . Dawes, Lapham, Rollins, Anthony, Hale1 McDill, Sawyer, it would be flying in the face of the latest authentic expression of their Blair, HarriSOn, McMillan, Sewell, wishes in regard to what ought to be done. If it is to be a tariff to put Cameron of P a ., Hawley, Mahone, Sherman, things up in order that men may have some shelter behind which t.o Cameron of Wis., Hill, Miller of N. Y ., Voorhees, Chilcott, Hoar, Morrill, Windom. labor and put up prices in place of putting them down, then I think Conger, Ingalls, Platt, the sooner we abandon any effort to reconstruct the tariff until we can come to the consideration of it from the basis of the interests and ABSENT-27. Allison, Farley, Jackson, Miller of Cal., wishes and well-being ofthe entire people of the United States the better. Bayard, Ferry, Johnston, Mitchell, Mr. MOHRILL. I trust that the Senator from Kansas has not for­ Brown, Frye, Jones of Florida, Saunders, gotten so soon that on his motion we increased the rate of duty upon Davis of Illinois, Garland, Jones of Nevada, Vu.nWyck, Davis of W. Va., Gorman, Kellogg, Walker, castor-oil, consumed by the common people all over the country. Edmunds, GroYer, Logan, Williams. 1\olr. PLUMB. No, my dear sir, we did not; we simply did not put Fair, Harris, McPher on, it down as much as the Tariff Commission recommended it should be. So the amendment was r~jected. With a. very great consideration for the people who were heard before The PRESIDING OFFICER. The Secretary will proceed with the them, they raised the tax upon the manufactured article and put it reading. down upon the agricultural production of the country; and I only pro­ The item from line 421 to ·line 425, inclusive, was read, as follows: tested a~inst that and insisted that the duty should only be reduced in All other earthen, stone, and crockery-ware white, glazed, edged, printed, proportion, as some manufactured articles had been. No, Mr. President, painted, dipped, or cream-colored, composed or1 earthy or mineral substances, upon my motion the duty upon castor-oil and castor-beans was not put not specially enumerated or provided for in this act, 50 per cent. ad valorem. down; it simply was not raised. l\fr. VANCE. According to the notice I gave I now move to strike 1\fr. MORRILL. It was put up from what it was in_the bilL out the word "fifty," in line 424, and to insert "twenty-five;" so as Mr. PLUMB. Oh, it was put up from what it was in the bill. read ' ' 25 per cent. ad valorem.' 7 1\fr. BECK. If the Senator from Kansas will allow m.e, even after The PRESIDING OFFICER. The question is on agreeing to the the increase he moved at 30 per cent. it stands below the present law, amendment of the Senator from North Carolina [Mr. VANCE]. while this is a proposed increase of 5 per cent. above the present law. ~Ir. VANCE. l\fr. President, I desire to detain the Senate but a single Mr. PLUMB. That is what I was about to say. I do not ask that any moment, as I partially discussed the proposition before we came to it in duty shall be increased. No one raising anything within the State of the previous remarks which I made. Kansas and no manufacturer in that State asks for an increase of duty This is the clause in the specification of these goods which the great on anything. We do ask that a ring, if I may use that expression with­ bulk of the people are most interested in, the amount of importations out offense, a collection and combination of interests located upon the for the year ending June 30, 1882, being 4,438,237.36 in value, and the eastern frontier of this country, near to the seat and source of power, amount of duty collected $1,775,294.9:3, showing the extensiveness to easily accessible to tariff commissions, and easy to get their ears, shall which the articles are used by all the people at large. not have their own way about everything of this kind entirely, irrespect­ The difference between the goods named in this paragraph and tl~ose ive of the sections of this country remote from the seat and sources of in the first clause, beginning at line 411, is simply the little matter of power. ornamentation which may be given to them, as I before explained; and Mr. President, some of us have got to be consulted before this bill why a man should be permitted to buy a lot of plain white stone-ware finally passes, and some of us will be consulted after the bill has passed for the use of his table at a certain price, and should be compelled, if in regard to the reasons for the action or non-action taken. I say now he bought the same lot of stone-ware precisely with a little ornamenta­ to the persons who have the run of this thing, to those who have had tion, with a little ring around the plates and saucers, or a flower, or control and are better posted, and have been able by arts and by >ari- something in the way of decoration displaying taste among the people, 1883. CONGRESSIONAL -RECORD- SENATE. 1285 to pay 100 per cent. more for that, when the fad is that the ornamenta­ but upon all that is made here, because the clamor is that unless that tion does not co t more than 2! per cent. or 5 per cent. on the article, amount of money is paid to a fewpeople here they will starve and this is something that I can not see any reason for. Of course the addi­ industry will be ruined. That is the general cry raised on every item tional cost of ornamenting the article is included in the ad -valorem of the bill, while the only object of requiring people to pay 50 per cent. which will be levied. more than the article is worth is to put the money into the pockets of For these reasons, in the effort to bring decorated common earthen­ orne men who will not work a cheap as omebody else. ware within the reach of the poorest people of the country and of all Mr. SEWELL. The result of the tariff of 40 per cent. during the the people, I have moved to reduce the duty from 50 to 25 per cent. last twenty years has been to cheapen this article 50 per cent. It is The PRESIDING OFFICER. The question is on agreeing to the that much cheaper to-day than it was then. amendment of the Senator from North Carolina [.Ur. VANCE]. M:r. VANCE. I think I can answer that question if permitted. M:.r. YA1~CE. I ask for the yeas and nays. The PRESIDING OFFICER. The Senator from Massachusetts has The yeas and nayswere ordered; and the Principal Legislative Clerk the floor. proceeded to call the roY. lli. DAWES. If the Senator from Kentucky would look into the Mr. ALLISON (when his name was called). I am paired with the evidence before the Tariff Commission perhaps he might be enabled to Senator from Delaware [Mr. BAYARD]. fortify himself and satisfy himself that he is in the right; that the con- Mr. FARLEY (when his name was called). I am paired 'vith my umer has to pay this price, and that the duty puts so much into the coll~oue [.Ur. MILLER, of California] . pockets of somebody else, and perhaps it would overthrow that theory Mr. GARLAND (when his name was called). I am paired with the in his mind. The Senator doe not eem to have investigated that fact. Senator from Vermont [Mr. Emro:m>. ]. Ifhewerehere, I should vote The truth that cannot be controverted is that under this policy the "yea." price to the consumer ha been going down all the time, and it has fullen Mr. IIA.WLEY (when his name was called). I am paired with the within these few years 50 per cent. Senator from outhCarolina [Mr. HAMPTO:N], whowa obliged to leave 111r. PLUMB. Within what time? the Chamber. If he were present, I should vote "nay. ' Mr. VANCE. }.fr. President-­ Mr. JACKSON (when his name was called). I am paired with the :Mr. ALDRICH. If the Senator-- Senator from Maine [Mr. FRYE]. The PRE. IDING OFFICER. The Senator from North Carolina- ­ :M:r. WALKER (when his name was called). I am paired with the Jtir. ALDRICH. If the Senator from Massachusetts will allow Senator from New Jersey [Mr. McPHERSON]. If he were here, I should me-- vote ''yea,.'' Mr. V Al~CE. I believe I have the floor. The roll-call having been completed, the result was announced-yeas The PRE"'IDING OFFICER. The enator from North Carolina 20, nays 27; as follows: has the floor. YEAS-ID. Mr. DAWES. The Senator from Kansas [Mr. PLUMB] expresses to Barrow, Coke 1\Iaxey, Ransom, me some sm-prise-- Beck Geotie, Morgan, Saulsbury, Bune'r, Groome, Pendleton, Slater, The PRESIDL.~G OFFICER. The Senator from North Carolina has Call, Jonas, Plumb, Vance, the floor. . Cockrell, Lamar, Pugh, Vest. 1\Ir. DAWES. Will the Senator allowmetorelievetheSenatorfrom NAY8-27. Kansas from the surprise he seems to be laboring under? Aldrich, DavisofW. Va., Lapham, Rollins, 1\Ir. V Al~CE. In a moment, if the enator pleases. I think if the Anthony, Dawes, McDill, Sawyer, Blair, Halel :M:cl\lillan, Sewell, Senator were to do so now he would tir up the Senator from Kansa , Cameron of Pa., Harnson, Mahone, Sherman, and then I should have to gi\e place to him. Cameron of Wis., Hill J.filler ofN. Y., Voorhees, Jtlr. ALDRICH. Will the Senator from North Carolina allow me to Chilcott, Hoa:.r, Morrill, Windom. Conger, Ingalls, Platt, read some figures? Mr. VANCE. Excuse me, if you plea e. In a moment the Senator ABSENT-29. can have the floor. I want to say that I have been indulging in some Allison, Ferry, Jackson, Mitchell, Bayard, Frye, Johnston, Saunders, equations of the third degree, and am able to answer the question of Brown, Garland, Jones of Florida, VanWyck, the Senator from Massachusetts. The consumeTs of these products are Camden, Gorman, Jones of Nevada, Walker, sufferingjustpreciselyto the amountthat the manufacturers have been DavisofllL, Grover, Kellogg, Williams. Edmunds, Hampton, Logan, benefited, within the fraction of a cent. It is a demonstration. Fair, Harns, McPherson, Mr. ALDRICH. On page 61 of the testimony before the Tariff Com­ Farley, Hawley, Miller of Cal., mission it will be found that a crate of crockery-ware of the kind which So the amendment was rejected. the Senator from Kentucky has alluded to would cost in 1864, $210.75; Mr. BECK. In line 424, I move to strike out "fifty" and to insert in 1877, .110.10; and in 1 · 2, 57. 9, or about one-quarter of the price "forty," so as to read "40per cent. ad valorem." Thatisrestoringthe which it would have co tin 1 6-!, the same goods. present t.

as this talk about the tariff reducing the prices is concerned the price The roll-call ha'ing been concluded, the result was announced­ of all arlicles, including e>cry article that the Senator has referred to yeas 20, nay 24; as follo~s: in England, where the tariff was not placed, is being reduced as rapidly YEA8-20. as in this country. It is the increased competition and the improve­ Barro''"• Cockrell, Jonas, Saulsbury, ment in the machinery that does it, and not the tariff. Beck Coke, lllaxey, Slater, Call,' DaYis of W. Ya., Pendleton, Vance, 1'!1r. BECK. Of course. Camtlen, George, Pugh, Vest, Mr. MAXEY. The tariff has got nothing to do with the reduction. Cameron of P:t., Jackson, Ransom, Voorhees. l\ir. BECK. Germany is competing with England, Belgium is com- NAY8-2!. peting with England, France i<1 competing with England, the world i Aldrich, Dawes, IcDill, Plumb, competing with England, and her prices come do"WD and keep down Anthony, Harrison, 1\IcMillan, Rollin, lower than the rest of the world, and she is paying to-day 25 per cent. Blair, llill, :Mahone, sa,vyer, Cameron of Wis., Hoar, !iller of N. Y., Sewell, more than the best paid labor in France; she is paying 30 per cent. more Chilcott, Ingall , Morrill, Sherman, than the best paid bbor in Germany; she is paying 40 per cent. more Conger, Lapham, Platt, 'Vindom. than the best paid labor in Belgium, and 50 per cent. more than they ABSEli.TT-32. are paying in Spain and Italy and because she has free material and Allison, Ferry, Harris, McPherson, free commerce she has driven them out of their own mark~ts by her in­ Bayard, Frye, Hawley, Miller of Cal., telligent labor, for pauper labor is the dearest labor in the world. It Brown, Garland, Johnston, 1\litchell, Butler, Gorman, Jones of Florida, l\Iorgan, is intelligent labor that we want and that this country has got if it Davis of ill., Groome, Jones of Nevada, Saunders, would only take the shackles off it hands and quit crying about stan­ Edmund , Grover, Kellogg, Van 'Vyck, ing infant industries that ha>e been pampered to death to ruin the Fair, llale, Lamar, Walker, laborer. Farley, Hampton, Logan, William. :Ir. ALDRICH. The cnator from Kentucky has alluded to the fuct So the Senate refused to adjourn. that this same article of earthen-ware could be bought at half the price The PRESIDIKG OFFICER. The question recurs on the amend­ abroad at which it may be lJought here. That may be accounted for to ment offered hy the Senator fi·om Kentucky [Mr. BEcK]. a >ery large extent by the fact that the average wages paid to plate­ Ir. BECK called for the yeas and nays. makers in England is 7.70 as shown hy a table atpage617oftheTar­ The yea and nays were ordered; and the Principal Legi latiYe Clerk iff Commission report, against 20.30 for wage paid to the same class proceeded t<> call the roll. oflaborers in New Je1 ey. About one-third the rate of wages is paid 1\Ir. CAl\IERON, of Pennsylvania (when his name was called). On in England that is paid to the same cla oflabor exactly in this coun­ thi question I am paired with the Senator from South Carolina [1\Ir. try. Those are the pockets exactly that the Senator from Kentucky B TLER]. If he were here, I should vote "nay." has alluded to in which this excess of co t i put-the pockets of the Mr. GARLAND (when his name was called). I am paired with the laboring men in the State of New Jersey who are engaged in the mak­ Senator from Vermont [1\Ir. EDMUNDS]. If he were here, I should vote ingofthisearthen-ware. Di h-makersarepa.id .9.62inEngland, 19.43 '' yea; '' and w bile I am on the floor I will announce the pair of my col­ in America; cup-makers $9.92 in England, against $19.67 in America; league [1\Ir. WALKER] with the Senator from New Jersey [l\1r. 1\Ic­ and so on through the long list, which I hall not detain the Senate to PHER 'ON]. read. lli. HAWLEY (when his name was called). I am paired with the M:r. BECK. The Tariff Commi ion have furnished a schedule of the Senator from South Carolina [lli. HAMPTON]. wages paid to all the persons engaged in pottery, stone-ware, and porce­ 1\Ir. JACKSON (when his name was called). I am paired with the lain. There are 9,494 hands; the wage paid is 3,279,535, only about Senator from Iaine [1\fr. FRYE]. But for that, I should vote "yea." $400 a year. 1\Ir. ROLLINS (when 1\fr. LOGAN's name was called). The Senator M:r. VANCE. Three hundred and forty-five dollars. from Illinois [ Ir. LOGAN] is paired with the Senator from Florida Mr. BECK. Three hundred and forty-five dollars I am told exactly, [Mr. Jo~-xs]. less than a dollar a day, and yet these people who get less than a dollar a 1\Ir. McDILL (when his name was called). On this question I am day:_here is the amount of wages, 3,279,535, the number of hands paired with the Senator from Mississippi [lli. LAMAR]. I desire to 9,494· anybody can make the ca.lculation-are paying twice what any­ ay that I voted on the last call of the yeas and nays, having forgotten body else is paying for all they use, and they are not getting rich very my pair.· fast. 1\fr. WINDOM (when his name was called). I am paired with the Mr. MAXEY. The whole theory upon which this bill proceeds is SenatorfromAlabama[lli. MoRGAN]. Otherwise, I should vote "nay." as false in political economy as it is in the theory of our Constitution. The roll-call was concluded. We have a right under the Constitution to lay and collect ta.xes, duties, Mr. HARRISON. I desire to state for the Senator from California imposts, and excises for the purpose, and for the pmpose only, of pay­ [1\Ir. MILLER] that he is paired with his colleague [1\lr. FARLEY]. ing the public debt, providing for the common defense, and promoting Mx. HALE. My colleague [ Ir. FRYE] is paired with the Senator the general welfare of the country. Now we are told when we strike from Tennessee [1\fr. JACKSON]. this protected article that it is not the tariff that increases the price. The result was announced-yeas 17, nays 22 ; as follows : If it is not the tariff which doe it, I ask how it is that when you strike YEAs-17. one of these protected industries every Senator who represents a pro­ Barrow, Coke, 1\Ia.xey, Vance. tected industry is instantly upon his feet to fight for the highest tariff Beck, Davis ofW. Va., Pendleton, Vest. he can get? The actions do not correspond with the theory. Call, George, Pugh, Camden, Groome, Saulsbury, Again, it is said that this is done for the purpose of protecting labor. Cockrell, Jonas, Slater, Out of whose pockets is the money taken to protect the labor? The very item we are acting upon now is the poorest class of crockery-ware, the NAY8-22. Aldrich, Dawes, 1\Icllfillan, Sawyer, cheapest class of crockery-ware, a ware which is used by the negroes Anthony, Hale, Mahone, Sewell, of the South, which is used by the poor people throughout the whole Blair, Harrison, Miller of N. Y., Sherman, country, which is used by the laboring people of the country; and yet Cameron of Wis., Hill, lllorrill, Voorhees. Chilcott, Hoar, Platt, the t.b.eory is that we have got to take part of the hard earnings of these Conger, Lapham, Rollins, people who work day by da.y for their living, who work by day's labor to make the money to feed their families, in order to protect some other ABSENT~7. labor. Where is there honesty or justice in taking the money out of Allison, Frye, Jones of Florida, Plumb, Bayard, Garland, Jones of Nevada, Ransom, the pockets of the people of yom State, Mr. President, to put it into Brown, Gorman, Kellogg, Saunders, the pockets of anybody else? Butler, Grover, Lamar, VanWyck, What is fair and right is to raise by taxation whatever amount of Cameron of Pa., Hampton, Logan, Walker, Davis oflll., Harris, McDill, Williams, money is necessary for the due purposes of the Government, and not Edmunds, Hawley, McPherson, Windom. one farthing more. The whole theory of protection from beginning to Fair, lngaUs, l\Iiller of Cal., end is false in logic, false in political economy, and in nolation of the Farley, Jackson, Mitchell, very spirit and purpo e of our Constitution. Ferry, Johnston, Morgan, Mr. CA IERON, of Penn ylvania(at5o'clockand15minutes p.m.). So the amendment was rejected. I move that the Senate do now adjourn. Mr. VOORHEES. It is now half past 5 o'clock, and I do not know Mr. MORRILL. I ask for the yeas and nays. _ what advantage can be obtained by further staying here. I therefore The yeas and nays were ordered, and the Principal Legislati>e Clerk renew the motion to adjourn, and I hope the Senator from Vermont will proceeded to call the roll. not antagonize the motion. I think we have reached a point where it 1r. GARLAND (when his name was called). I am paired with the is very proper and reasonable to adjourn. I make that motion. Senator ti·om Vermont [Mr. EDMm-.""1> ] . If he were here, I should The PRESIDING OFFICER. The Senator from Indiana moves that >ote ''yea.'' the Senate do now adjourn. Mr. HAWLEY (when his name was called). I am paired with the Jl.1r. EDMUNDS. Let us have the yeas and nays. Senntor from South Carolina [ Ir. HA]}lPTON]. If he were here, I The yeas and nays were ordered, and the Principal Legislative Clerk shon~ct Yot~ "nay." proceeded to call the roll. 1883. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. 1287

:Mr. McDILL (when his name was called). I am paired with the There being no objection the Committee of the ·whole House on the Senator from 1\lississippi [Mr. LAMAR]. Private Calendar was discharged from the ftrrther consideration of the Mr. WINDOM (when his hame was called). I am paired with the bill; which was thereupon ordered to be engro ed fo1· a third reading, Senator from Alabama [ Ir. MORGAN]. and was accordingly read the third time, and passed. The roll-call was concluded. 1\Ir. NEAL moved to reconsider the •ote by which the bill was passed; Mr. BARROW. TheSenatorfrom Tenne ee[Mr. JACK O"N) ispaired and also moved that the motion to reconsider be laid on the table. with the Senator from Maine [Mr. FRYE]. The latter motion was agreed to. The result was announced-yeas 22, nays 21; as follow : CAPTAIN DOUGLA OTTINGER. YEAS-22. Mr. MUTCHLER. I a k unanimous consent that the Committee of Barrow, Coke, Jona, Slater, the Whole House on the Private Calendar be discharged from the further Beck Davis ofW. Va., :Maxey, Vance, Call,' Garland, Pendleton, Vest, consideration of the bill (H. R. 4169) for the relief of Douglass Ottinger, Camden, George, Pugh, Voorhees. of the revenue-marine service, and that the bill be taken up for passage_ Cameron of Pa., Groome, Ransom, The bill was read, as follows: Hale, Saulsbury, Cockrell, Whereas Captain Douglass Ottinger, of the revenue-marine service, ha been NAY8-21. in the said service since 1832, is now over 77 years of age, and has a stainless Aldrich, Conger, Lapham, Sawyer, record as an officer and a man; and Allison, Dawes, McMillan, Sewell, Whereas his services as an official have been largely supplemented by useful Anthony, Edmunds, 1\fahone, Sherman. inventions for saving life, all of which have been freely donated to the United Blair, Harrison, 1\Iorrill, States and are in actual use in its work of life-saving, and the said Douglass Cameron of Wis., Hoa~t Platt, Ottinger is now too old for active service: Therefore, Chilcott, IngallS, Rollins, Be it enacted by the Se:nate and Hou.se of Representatives of the United States of ABSENT-33. .A:merica in Congress assembled, That the said Douglass Ottmger shall hereafter be entitled to receive the full pay of his rank in the said revenue-marine service Bayard, Grover, Kellogg, Plumb, during the remainder of his natural life, whether on active duty or otherwise. Brown, Hampton, Lamar, Saunders, Butler, Harris, ~£ili VanWyck, 1\Ir. DINGLEY. I object. We should not begin pensioning officem Walker, ~!t,s of Ill., :ruwley, 1\IcPhe~son, Williams, ofthe revenue-marine service. Farley, Jackson, 1\Iiller of Cab 'Vindom. RAILWAY COMMID.-rCATIO~ WITH CEXTRAL AND SOUTH AMERICA. Ferry, Johnston, MillerofN. 1:., Frye, Jones of Florida, Mitchell, lli. BELFORD, by unanimous consent, presented the memorial of Gorman, Jones of Nevada, !\forgan, Hinton Rowan Helper on the subject of railway communication be­ So the motion wasagreed to; and (at 5 o'clockand 31 minutesp. m.) tween North and Central and South America; which was referred to the Senate adjourned. the Committee on Commerce. AGRICULTURAL .APPOPRIATIO~ BILL. A message from the Senate, by 1\Ir. SniPSON, one of its clerks, an­ HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. nounced the adoption of the conference report on the agricultural appro­ priation bill. WEDNESDAY, January 17, 1883. STEAMER JACK ON. The House met at 11 o'clock a.m. Prayer by the Chaplain, Rev. F. Mr. OATES. I ask by unanimous consent that the amendments of D. POWER. the Senate to the bill (H. R. 2156) for the relief of certain owners of the The Journal of yesterday's proceedings was read and approved. steamer Jackson be taken from the Speaker's table and concurred in. WILLIAl\1 H. DONOHOE. Mr. PAGE. I object. Mr. NEAL. I ask unanimous consent that the Committee of the SABAH A. SCOTT. Whole House on the Private Calendar be discharged from the further 1\Ir. WISE, of Pennsylvania, by unanimous consent, introduceda·bill consideration of the bill (H. R. 7240) for the relief of William H. Don­ (H. R. 7315) for the relief of 1\Irs. Sarah A. Scott; which was read a ohoe, and that the bill be now put on its passage. first and second time, referred to the Committee on Invalid Pensions, The bill was read, as follows: and ordered to be printed. Be it enacted, &:c., That the Secretary of the Treasury be, and he is hereby, au­ GEORGE GRAHAl\1. thorized and directed to pay to William II. Donohoe, late a private in detach­ ment of the Signal Corpsl out of any money in the Treasury not otherwise appro­ 1\Ir. RICE, of Missouri, by unanimous consent, introduced a bill (H. priated, the sum of S300, zor the balance of veteran bounty due him. R. 7316) for the relief of George Graham; which was read a first and Mr. NEAL. Before objection is made, I a k that the report be read. second time, referred to the Committee on War Claims, and ordered to It is the unanimous report of the Committee on War Claims, having be printed. been submitted by my colleague [1\Ir. GEDDE ]. HELE"N 1\I. THAYER. The report was read, as follows: 11-fr. DAWES, by unanimous consent, from the Committee on Invalid The Committee on War Claims, to whom was referred the petition of William Pensions, reported back favorably the bill (H. R. 6923) granting a pen­ H. Donohoe, late private in detachment of the Signal Corps, report as follows: That it appears from the records of the War Department that petitioner en­ sion to 1\frs. Helen 1\f. Thayer; which, with the accompanying report, listed on the 19th day of April, 1861, in Company A, Eighteent.h Regiment of was referred to the Committee of the Whole House, and ordered to be Ohio lnfantry1 re-enlisted in Company H, Sixt.h Regiment of Ohio Cavalry, and printed. erved as a pr1vate in the latter regiment until January, 1864, at which time he was transferred to the Signal Corps, and assigned to duty at headquarters Army SWEARING IN OF A 1\IEl\IllER. of the Potomac; and in February of the following year he re-enlisted as a vet­ ~fr. BROW}.TE. I rise to a question of privilege, and present the cre­ eran, to serve three years or during the war, for which service he was to receive the pay and allowances of a private soldier, and a bounty of $!02. He continued dentials of lli. Charles T. Doxey, R-epresentative-elect from the ninth in said service until August 2,1865, when, by a special order of the War Depart­ Congressional district of Indiana, elected to fill the vaeancy occasioned ment, he was honorably discharged, and had the last paid installment of $50 by the death of 1\fr. Orlh, former Representati\e. There is no contro­ bounty deducted from his pay. The members of the Signal Corps were held in service until August 3, 1865, versy as to the election, and I ask that he be now worn in. when a general order of the War Department was issued, providing for the dis­ The SPEAKER. These credentials ha•e.been examined and seem to charge of all the members of that organization east of the Mississippi River, in­ be regular in form, and unless objection is made the gentleman will cluding the detachment on duty at headquarters of the Army of the Potomac, to which petitioner belonged. come forward and be sworn in. The credentials will be printed in the The petitioner protested against this discharge being granted under a special RECORD. order, and made every effort to have the special order revoked, tha.t he might They are as follows: be discharged with his comrades, and like them receive bounty. It appears from the proof submitted that petitioner's father made application EXECUTIVE DEPARTIIENT. t<> President Johnson for his son's individual discharge. The President referred I, Albert G. Porter, governor of the State of Indiana, do hereby certify tha' the letter to Major Charles L. Davis, commanding detachment of the Signal Charles T. Doxey was regularly elected to the Forty-seventh Congre of the Corps, who returned theapplication to the President with the recommendation United States of America, from the ninth Congressional district of the State of that it be granted. The President, on August 2, 1865, ordered his discharge and Indiana, on the 9th day of January, .A. . D.l883, in accordance with the laws of <>n the next day the Secretary of War ordered the discharge of the whol'e de­ the said United States and the State of Indiana. tachment. The detachment were discharged under general order, and received In witness whereof I have h ereunto set my hand and caused to be affixed the their bounty in full. seal of the State of Indiana, at the city of Indianapoli , this 13th day of January, The petitioner applied to the Second Auditor of the Treasury Department for A. D.l883. the $300 due him as the balance of the veteran bounty. This officer rejected hfs ALBERT G. PORTER- c~aim on the ground that he was discharged by special order, and not a general By the governor: order. He then made application to the Secretary of War for a revocation of E. R. HAWN, Secretary of State. the special order of August 2,1865. The Secretary of War, under date of March Mr. DOXEYpresented himself in front of the Speaker's desk and was 11, 18i0, in reply thereto, decided that "the case is one that can only be changed by action of Congress." qualified by taking the oath prescribed by section 1756 of the Revised The statement of the petitioner's service shows that he fulfilled all the require­ Statutes. ment of the law; and it is difficult to find any valid rea on why he is not en­ NEW MIXED CO:ID\IISSION WITH VE:NEZUEI,A. titled to the bounty of 5300. The committee are of opinion that it would not comport with the dignity of the Mr. RICE, of Massachusetts. I move to dispense with the morning Government thus to break faith with the gallant men who in that hour of gloom hour for the call of committees for reports. · stood forth to peril their lives for their country. They therefore report the ac­ companying bill appropriating the sum of $300 to pay 'Villiam H. Donohoe the 1\Ir. PAGE. For what purpose? veteran bounty due him, and recommend its passage. ~Ir. RICE, of Massachusetts. To call up the special order fixed for 1288 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD- HOUSE. JANUARY 17,

.January 10, which is House joint resolution 277, providing for a new made the decisions of the commission and umpire final and conclusive as to all claims pending at the date of their installation~ and claims not presented within mixed commi ·ion in accordance with the treaty of April25, 1 66, with the twelve months were to become disregardea and invalid. the United tates of Venezuela. By the record of the commission, as deposited in the State Department, it ap­ The motion was agreed to (two-thirds voting in fuvor thereof). p~rs tha t it organized Augllllt 30, 1867, and finally adjourned August 5, 18GB. This record assumed that the date of the organization was at the first meeting ~Ir. RICE, of Massachusetts. I now call up the special order. It of the two commissioners, rather than at that after the appointment of the um­ will be seen by reference to the CaJendar that it wa- pire, Aprill8, 1868. A statement of the claims alJowed and dh:;allowed by this Resol'l•ed, '!'bat the Committee of the \Vbole Honse on the state of the U nion be commi ion is hereto appendt'd, marked D. From thi statement it appears that discharged from the further con ideration of H. R e . 277, entitled " A joins r eso­ the cla:~s presented to _the commissi<;m aggregated $4,8'23,273.31, of which the lution providing for a. new mixed commi ion in aStates of Venezuela, serious charge , The President's message i in the .Appendix, marked E. It will be noted from impeaching the validitr. and integrity of it.s proceedings, have been made by the this communication (pages 7 and 8) that Venezuela has paid sufficient to enable Government of the Umted States of Venezuela, and also charges of alike char­ the United States to pay her dividends upon all the awards amounting to 15 per acter by divers citizens of. the United States of America, who presented claims cent. and. still leave a balance on band f)f 5221,065.89. She bas not, however, for a djudication before that tribunal; and nearly paid the amounts called for by the terms af the tr eaty protesting against Whereas the evidence to be found in the record of t.be proceedings of said com­ t.be validity of the awards. mission, and in the testimony taken before committees of the Hou e of Repre­ The Secretary of State recommends the passage of an act directing the Court .sentatives in the matter, tends to show that such charges are not without founda­ of Claims * * * to hear and determine * * * whether any, and, if so, tion ; and which of the seven awards objected to by Venezuela were obtained by fraud or Whereas it is desirable that the matter be finally disposed of in a mauner that corruption. He suggests an mquiry by the Court of Claims as to whether the shall satisfy any ju t complaints against the validity and integrity of the first h olders of any of the certificates of awards found to be fraudulent are innocent commission, and provide a tribunal under said treaty constructed and conducted holders, that they may be instituted for the original claimants in any future ne­ so as not to give cause for just suspicion; and gotiations with Venezuela to tl;le extent of their certificates. Whereas all evidence before said late commission wa presented in writing The Government of Venezuela protests against the entire action of the com­ and is now in the archives of the State Department; and mission, alJeging that it was tainted by fraud and therefore should be treated as Whereas the President of the United States bas, in a recent communication to a. nullity. It claims that there bas been no valid commi ion. and therefore that Congress, olicited it advisory action in this matter: Therefore, the treaty provision creating a commission is yet unexecuted. Resolved by the enate and House of Represent4.tives of the UniUd Slates of America The President says, in his message: in Cong1·ess assembled, That the President be, and he hereby is, requested to open "In case either House takes action upon it (the subject of his me sage) during diplomatic corre pondence with the Government of the United ' tates of V en e­ the present Congress, I shall feel it my duty to direct that this prolonged discus­ zuela, with a view to the revival of the general stipulations of the treaty of April ion be definitely terminated by recognizing the absolute validity of all the 25, 1866, with said government, and tile appointment thereunder of a new com­ awards.' ' mission, to sit in the city of \Vasbington, which commission shall he authorized It has been argued by able coun el that Congress, urely the House of Repre- to consider all the evide nce pre en ted before the former commission in r e p ect entatives, has no jurisdiction in this matter, but that it is wholly for the decision to claims brought before it, together with such other and further evidence a the of the Executive; but now the Pre ident himself ex pres his desire "to secure claimants may otl'er; and from the R\'mrds that m ay be made to cla imants, any an expression of legislative purpose and wishes respecting t.his matter," and moneys heretofore paid by the D epartment of tate, upon certificate s issued to " arnestly invites the attention of Congre " to his communication. lt doe them, repectively, upon awards made by the former commission, shall be de­ not seem necessary, therefore, to consider this objection to Congre sional action ducted, and ucb certificate d eemed canceled; and the moneys now in the D e­ at this time, but to enter upon an examination of the ubject with the earnest­ par tment of State received from the Government of V en ezuela on account of ne expre ed by the President and demanded by its great importance. If th e said awa rd , and all moneys that may hereafter be paid under aid treaty, hall awards are tainted by fraud they should not be enforced; but we are now as­ be distributed pro rata in payment of such a ward as may be made by the com­ sured that their validity will be recognized unless Congre acts. The right and mission to b e appointed in accordance with thi r esolution. the duty of Congress are thu made clear. The honor of the nation is committed to it. Itdevolvesupon ittoinve tigatethechargesoffraud made by Venezuela, Mr. PAGE. Let the report of the committee be read. and, h aving done so, to expre s its " purposes and wishes." The report of the committee was read, as follows: PREVIOL' COYGRE IONAL AcriON. The Committee on Foreign Affa irs, to whom was re ferred a bill in r ela tion In the Forty-first Cong r ess l\Ir. Wilkinson, from the House Committee on to the Venezuela awards (H.R.3159),and the message from the Pre ident oft he Foreign Affairs, made a r eport ustaining the award, but no action was taken United States relative to the same award , dated l\Iay 25, 1882, having had the thereon. (House R e port_ o. 79, second sess ion, Forty-first Congress.) . same under consideration, ubmit the following report and accompanying joint At the second se sion of the Forty-second Congres l\Ir. Packard, from the same resolution, the passage of which they recommend. committee, made a r eport, which say s: The committee have not thought it necessary to m ake any original investiga­ "Your committee have examined the t timony and can not avoid the con­ tion into the que lions relating to the Venezuela awards, the consideration of clu ion that it shows reasonable ground for complaint on the part of the Gov­ which bas been ubmitted to them. For fifteen years these awards have been ernment of Venezuela and the cla imants who e cas were not adjudicated be­ the subject of diplomatic conespondenceand Congre ional investigation . We fore the tribunal. These complaint are of the following tenor: That powers have deemed it impossible to obtain, after this long interval, any fre b informa­ of attorney were given in orne of the cases to the American commissioner, and tion, not already pread upon the record, of this correspondence and the e in­ h e received pecuniary compensation for execut.ing the same; that an improper vestigations. Our work, tbert-fore, is of collation and reference, o far as may intimacy exi ted between the American commi ioners, the umpire, and !llr. be necessary to form conclu ions upon the points submitted to us. Our r eport William P . Murray, who was the attorney of sundry claimants, and was also rep­ will be narrative rather than argumentative, and we shall quite briefly state the resented as b eing the 10ecretary of legation, all the claim ba ving to pass through conclusion which the facts seem to suggest: his hand , and that the aid \Villiam P.l\Iurray received from the tribunal of arbi­ CLAD! AG AINST VENEZUELA. tration certificates totheamount in heard case of one-half the sum allowed the 'claimants." . Prior to 1864 many unsettled claims had accumulated in favor of American The report closes with the opinion that the Pre iden .,.should be directed tosus­ citizens again t Venezuela. In 1864 lion. E. D. Culver, then minister of the peJ:.Jd payment on the certificates and authorized to enter into negotiations with U nited States to Venezuela, made schedules of these claims, to be forwarded to Venezuela for a rehearing of the claims. (House Report No. 29, second session his Government. Tho e schedules, marked A and B, are appended to this Forty-second Congress. report. In the third session of the same Congre the same committee r eviewed its Sch edule A is beaded "Claims of citizen of the United States, pending and first decision, and, contrary t9 their former report, aid that they did not find unliquidated, which have been pres~nted to the Government of Venezuela, with "that the complaints were so clearly e tablisbed as to cause the awards of the the proofs and documents in support thereof." These claims amount to commission to be set aside." On this finding a bill passed Congress, Febr uary $308,263.74, exclusive of tho e referred to in the note, which nominally would be 15 1873, providing- some $46,000 more. 1'That the adjudication of claims by the convention with Venezuela of April Schedule B is headed " Claims of citizens of the United States which have been 25,1866, pursuant to the terms of said convention, is hereby recognized as final liquidated and adjusted, but which are yet tmpaid in whole or in part." These and conclusive, and to be held as valid and sub i ting against the Republic of amount to $55,314.74. Venezeula.'' The minister is careful to guard against prejudicing any claims which might In the Forty-fourth Co~re , first e ·ion, an exhaustive investigation was have been brought to hi knowledge, or m1ght have been inadvertently omitted made into these complaints. The report then made, and the testimony which by him; but there is no reason to suppose that be did not use due ·care to a cer­ a.ccompanied it, supplemented by that taken before the same committee of the tain and include all claims then known to be outstanding of the character de­ Forty-fifth Congress, so fully cover the whole ground as to render it unnecessary scr ibed. for any future committee to do more than to review it. (Report No. 787, Forty­ THE TREATY. fourth Congres , first session; Report No. 702, Forty-fifth Congress, second ees­ April 28, 1866, t~ convention was made between. the United States and Vene­ sion; Mis. Doc. No. 11, Forty-fifth Congress, second se sion; Mis. Doc. No. 30, zu ela for a commis ion for the settlement of claims of citizens of the nited Forty-fifth Congress, second e ion.) States upon the Government of Venezuela. A copy of the treaty, marked C, is Aft.er a careful review of the whole ca e, the report of the committee of the her eunto appended. This treaty providedfora.mixedcommi sion con i ting of Forty-fourth Congre. clo es as follows: two members, one to b e appointed by the United States and one by Venezuela, " Now that a careful inquiry bas been made by your committee in reference to meet in Caracas within four months from the exchange of the ratification of to the conduct of our officials, and al o to the fraudulent character of the claims the convention. The comlllissioners were to appoint an umpire to act in case awarded by the commission-which investigation, in the opinion of your com­ of disagreement b etween them, and if they could not agree in the selection of mittee, has demonstrated the truth and reasonable11ess of the allegatiGns of the umpire, he was to be named bytbediplomaticrepresentative eitherof witz­ Venezuela-a. further and continued refusal on the part of our Government to er laud or of Uussia. in \Vasbington. r e pond to the appeals of that government can not be justified on principles of The commissioners were to hear one person in behalf of ea~b government in international honor a nd comity. If Venezue la were the equal of this Govern­ every separate claim, if o required. They were to issue certificates of the s ums m ent in area population, andre ources, she would have long since ceased to to be paid to the re pective claimants under their decisions where payment. was address our Government by appeals to our magnanimity and sense of ju!'ltice, provided for. The commission was to terminate its labors in twelve months and would have terminated all diplomatic inte t·cour-e and assumed toward us from the date of its organization, except an extension of thirty dayll, if necessary, the attitude which w e now bear toward het·. In orde r, therefore, to vindicate for the issue of tlte certificates on the awards of the umpire. The last. article the proud position which our Go,·ernment ha always a. umed tow ard other -

1883. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD- HOUSE. 1289

nations of the world, and to pre erve intact the peaceful means of national arbit­ then unsettled in Venezuela, and General Blanco was absent from home and rament for the settlement of all differences arising between nations, we should othenvise btlSy. Talmage's complaints are quite as indicative of an intention at once proceed to uo full justice in the premises. We can afford tore pond to on his part to quarrel with the Venezuelan Government. the appeals of Venezuela in this case, and by so doing will honor ourselves and At U1e first meeting, .August 30, the commissioners conferred as to the selec­ vindicate the ancient precept, that 1 righteousness exalteth a nation, but sin is a tion of a.n umpire. reproach t,a any people.' At the firat meeting Talmage proposed T . 0. G. Rolandus, consul-general of "In view of the fact that this session of Congress will soon a

November 23 Talmage left N ew York for Caracas, where he arrived Decem- Juan N. Machado, jr., wa the on.of a respectable citizen of Caracas, who it ber7. · is claimed was by no means incapacitated by age and infirmity. Talmage swears January 24, 1868, 1\Ir. ~ ewa1·d addre es a note to Rivas, informing him of the that he first became acquainted with the young man in September, 1867. He receipt of a communication from Gutierrez, Venezuelan minister of foreign re­ wa so well pleased with him that he appointed him hi. privat attorney to look lations, and reque ting him to unite in reque tin~ the minister of Ru ia to make after his matters during his ·d it to the United tate to ee about the appoint­ the appointment of au umpire, Switzerland havmg no minister at Washington. ment of an umpire. February 6 the application wa · made to Baron Stoeckl, Rus ian minister. Soon after the breaking up of the commi ion l\1achado left Venezuela, and February '1:7: eems to have since passed his time in the United States and Europe. Tho W ASHINGTO -,February '1:7, 1868. young man was engaged in some bu ine in which he had Leen e tabli b ed by By your communication of the 6th of February ultimo you send me a copy of his father at the time of hi selection as umpire. a convention between the United State and Venezuela to arrange the arbitra­ It is claimed that the appointment was procured by suggesting the name of the ment of certain claims, in which convention it is tipulated that, in case the two father, and afterward sub tituting the son, already Talmage' private attorney. commissioners employed respectively by the two governments do not agree with The committee have no means of ettling thi point except infe rentially from the election of one arbiter, he will be appointed by me as r epresentative of IDs the facts and correspondence above stated. 1\lajesty the Emperor of all Rus ia in the United State . The commission was thu at last organized. I have been trying to fulfill the confidence reposed in me by those two govern­ It was composed of D . .l\1. Talmage, commissioner on the part of the nit d ments, and, therefore, I have appointed an impartial and respectable man as States; Francisco Conde on the part- of Venezuela, and Juan N. 1\Iacbado,jr., arbiter, which man is Seiior Machado, who, according to the best information I umpire. Conde resigned upon the d eci ion of the umpire as to rules of proced­ get R>bout him, has the qualifications. ure, and l\Iay 7, 1868, Jose Gregorio Villafane was appointed in his place, and I have submitted his election to 1\Ir. Riva , who is in charge of the business thus the final adjudicating commis ion was compo ed. The history of it organ­ belonging to the United State of Venezuela, and he has regarded it as favor­ ization would seem to justify a watchful eye upon its proceedings. able. '"WILLIAX H. WHITO:Y. I am, &c., STOECRL. In the winter of 186i-'68 there eems to have been a man named William II. Whiton engaged in the paint and lead bu iness in Fulton street, New York city. April18 the minute of the commi ion record the following: In his testimony he wears that h e never knew tillwell, 1\lurrayior l\Iachado; CARAOAS, .Ap1·il 18, 1868. he was not an attorney at law; he wa ignorant of the Spanish anguage ; b e Whereas the embassador of Russia at Wa hington city has appointed anum­ knew nobody in Venezuela., and yet he b came attorney for the prosecution of pire in pursuance of the convention entered into between t.he Government of three claims before the commission for the sum of -25,000, upon which the com­ the United States and that ofVe pezuela on the 25th of April, 1866, and 1\Ir. Juan mission allowed $352,814. The e were the Idler claim, the Ralph R.andom claim, N . Machado, jr., being the person so appointed, and he having accepted same, and the James Barnes claim, neither of which i found in the schedule made up and made proper oath before the commi ion, and the commis ioners at the same by fini ter Culver. 'Vhy Whiton wa. selected to represent the e claims does time having been hereon advi ed by their re pective governments, they resolved not very distinctly appear. He thinks that a lr. Bogert fir t poke to him of the to continue the meetings of the mixed commi ion pursuant to r e olution of Idler claim, but doe not peak v erypositivelyaboutit. lie eem to have done 1 nothing about the matter except to have gone to Wa hington where h claim ~\~t~~!~~~~~Z~:~~-to notify the same to the minister r esident of the United that h e was informed by some one in the ta te Department ' that if there was Resolved, That the meetings of the commi ioners be holden daily ( unday a n hone t claim against Venezuela it was the Idler claim.'' H e swears that he excepted), from 1 to 4 o'clock p . m., at the office of the commission, No. 30 ol then occupied some six or eight weeks to go over the account , &c. , not to prove street, Caracas. the claim against Venezuela, but to see how it bould be divided between the Adjourned to the following day at 1 p. m . Idler heirs and other parties claiming an interest. He wrote a letter or two about DAVID 1\1. TALl\IAGE, the claim to a Mr. Be rmudes at Caraca. He ga v e Talmage a power of a ttorney Comnnissioner of the United States. to act for him, authorizing him to do everythin~ he could do regarding the pre - FRANCISCO CO~'"DE , entation of the claim, receipt of its proceed , &c. Talmage eems to ha,·e per­ Comisionado de los EE. Unidos de Venezuela. formed hi duty as attorney mo t faithfully. The commission, of which he was ALFRED ALDERSO ~. &cretary. a member, con idered it first upon the list, and awarded -52, 14, the certidcate for which Talmage receipted for and brought to the nited tate . For his serv­ pril 22, l\Ir. Seward addressed the following note to Baron Stoeckl: ices in the e matters Whiton wear that h e was to h ave one-third of t he Idler WASHINGTON .ApriL 22, 1868. claim, and other testimonr indicate that he wa to have 50 per cent. of the o t h e~. 1 l\Ir. Henry Woodruff, an attorney of New York, r epre en ted a bout a quarter of DEAR Sm.: Upon tw-ning to your note appointing the arbiter under the con­ a million of V en ezuela claims. ID te timony r elating to Whiton is 1\S follow : vention between the United States and Venezuela, it is noticed that you acci­ " In the spring of 1866 I learned that Ir. Talmage, the commi ioner on the dentally omitted his Chri tian name. As it is desirable that the omission should part of the nited States, had sailed for Ven ezuela, and I understood about the be supplied, you will oblige me either by withdrawing the original note and sub­ same time that the Rus ian mini ter bad d e ignated the umpire to a ct in con­ stituting another of the same date with the full name of the person inte nded to n ection with the commissioner . Wi. bing to present the claim in a ccot·danc be appointe~: Juan N. Machado, jr., or by addre ing to me a upplementary with such rul as the commis ion might e tablish, I ought to communicate in note stating tnat it was your intention to appoint that gentleman. some manner with 1\b-. Talmage, and to that end called upon hi brother a I am, very truly, your , re ident of the city of New York, a gentleman who wa in bu iuess there at W. H . SEWARD. that time, and he referred me to a l\Ir. Whiton, who, he informed m e, attended 1\Ir. EDWARD DE STOECKL, &c., t!:c., t!:c. to all matters relating to the Venezuelan busine for l\1r. Talmage. At that 1\ir. Haywood, clerk at the Department of State, testified RS to the resnlt of time Mr. Whiton wa doing business or had an office on Fulton street , north this letter as follow : side, east of Broadway. I called upon 1\lr. Whiton, and he asked me why I in­ "Question. What was the date of Baron Stoeck.l's original letter? quired in reference to the matter. I told him that I represented certnin claim " Answer. February 22,1868. The subsequent one, which is on file as the orig­ against the Government of Venezuela. He then said to me that he was e ngaged inal, was no doubt substituted by Baron Stoeckl himself." in sending forward claims to be placed before the commission, and that if my Mr. Pile stated to the committee that Mr. 1\1aehado took the oath of office as clients desired he would send forward the claims thnt I represented. I informed umpire and entered on the duties of the office in Caracas on the 18th of April, him that there wa a gentleman then resident in Caracas to whom I propo cd 1868. to send the claims to act in behalf of my clients, if any action was required. He " By 1\lr. Pn..E: (Whiton) said that he would only ~ake charge of the matter upon the condition "Q. On the ori~inal of this note is there a note by Ir. Hunter, Assi tantSecre~ that the claimant should enter into an agreement to permit him to designate tary of State, which fixes the date of the substitution of the second original for an attorney to act in the matter in Caracas, and receive the certificate. or award the first? that might be made , and that in consideration of the ervice he wa to retain "A. The original is supposed to bear the da.te 'J:lth of February, 1868. The at least one-half of such awards. I suggested to him that I thought the com­ translation does not give the date. Afterward we discovered that Baron Stoeckl Fensation was large, considering the service to be done, as I had the matter all did not give the Chri tian name of the umpiret and then this letter of the 22d of prepared, had presented the claim already my elf to the government, and that April wa.swritten to him asking him tosupplytne omi ion either by withdraw­ they were in fact ackowledged, at lea t I so considered them to be by the cor­ ing the note and sending another one, or else giving a supplementary note. He. respondence I had with the ecretary of foreign affairs and the mini ter of seems to have been satisfied with giving a duplicate of the first note, putting in Fomento. the Chri tian name of Ir. Machado, and Mr. Hunter ha put upon it the date of " Perhaps I had better state in explanation of thi that the government did not its receipt, 29th of April. The first note is marked, ' Received 28th of February,' in terms agree to pay the bonds of the railway, but it acknowledged the eizure and the next 29th ofApril. The latter note was no doubt banded in in person, with of the railroad; acknowledged having taken pos ession of the franchi es of the the date of the first note, and wa sub tituted for the fir t note, as it was never corporation so far as the runningofthe road and takingpo ession of its receipts supposed that a.ny more would be thought of it; and a we only wanted a trans­ was concerned. They acknowledged also that they had transferred the enter­ lation for the use of the office no new translation wa made, but 1\Ir. Hunter took prise to one Clark, an Englishman, but contended that they had transferred with his pen and wrote in the tran lation of the fir t note the words, ' Juan N.' it the liabilitie that pertained to the enterpri e. I held, on the contrary, I and 'jr.'" thought in accordance with law, that when the government had eized the en­ April 7, 1\lr. Talmage had written l\Ir. Seward the following letter: terprise, and a umed to discharge the ubscribers to the tock from their liabili­ CARAOAS, Apl'il1, 1868. ties (the government itself being a ub criber to the stock), it thereby became liable for the bond of the corporation ·hand, further, that if the government at­ Sm.: ·I am notified by Thoma N. till well, United States minister resident at tempted, as it had done, to dispo e of t e property to a foreigner, it must itself this legation, that 1\1r. Edward de toeckl, the diplomatic representative of Russia become liable for the bonds of the corporation then outstanding. For that rea-­ in Washington city, on the previous invitation of the Governments of the son I considered that practically the liability of the government for the bonds United States and Venezuela, had been plea ed to name Juan N . .1\Iachado as was established. I did not consider that anything was to be done before the umpire under the convention between the United States and Venezuela, con­ commission by an attorney. cluded at Caracas April 25, 1866. ''In respon e to omeremarksofmine in regard to the largenessoftheconsid­ Our minister resident, Thomas N . tillwell has notified Juan N. Machado, eration demanded by 1\lr. Whiton, he informed me that he would not forward jr., of his appointment a umpire, he being undoubtedly the person intendedJ any claim for le than one-half; and then remarked that as to one claim that and not the father, Juan N. Machado, enior, who is disqualified, being agea he had forwarded, ' We have two-third ; ' and 'That claim ' says he,' will app ar and infirm. as No.1 on the list.' He did not mention the claim or the claimant; hismaru1er, I mention thi circumstance so that the per on intended be particularly desig­ howeveri and the positivene of hi a ertions in regard to its appearan as No. nated, so as to prevent any po sibility of misunderstanding in the future. 1 on the ist, caused me to believe that hi associations w ere omewhat intimat The busine s of the commission will now proceed. with the commission, a.nd I therefore report d the matter to my clients for the ir I have the honor to be, your obedient en·ant, consideration suggesting to them that it Inight be de irable that they hould DAVID l\1. TAL~1.AGE. accede to his demand. They declined, however, and de u·ed me to confer again HoN. Wn..LIAM H. SEWARD, with 1\ir. 'Vhiton, and ee if I could not make better terms. &cretary of State of the Unitecl tate.s, &c., &c., &c. " I had a second conference with him a ertained that I could obtain no differ­ This correspondence tells it own story and requireo; no explanation or com­ ent arrangement than the one he had indicated, a nd I therefore clo ed the con­ ment from the committee. ference, and had no further inter>iew with him. I then forwarded the papers February '1:7, 1867, Baron Stoeckl appointed Senor Machado as umpire. in the claims, the one standing in my own name on the bond , and the cluim. of April 7, 1868, Talmage informed Secretary Seward that Stillwell, United State Flanagan, Bradley, lark & Co., to the American legation at CBraca . That was minister, had notified Juan N. Machado, jr., that he was appointed umpire, he about the 9th day of June, 1 68. I was achrised of the r ceiptofthe b\ims at th being undoubtedly the person intended, and not the father, Juan N. l\Iachado, legation, not by any letter from the mini ter or hi cretary, but by a letter from 15r., who is disqualified, being old and infirm. 1\1r. Sturup, who at the time I was in Caraca wa the r pr entati've of the Gov­ .April18. Juan N . 1ach.ado, jr., appeared and took his oath as umpire. ernment of Denmark, and, as I understood, at time · had charge of our legation April 29. Baron Stoeckl, at request of the State Department, first wrote into when the minister happened to be ab nt. I had written to Mr. "turup, n king his note of appointment" Juan N.'' " j unior." that he would call upon the legation ami ee that the claim were properly pre- 1883. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE.- 1291

ented before the commission. In August,1868, I received from him a letter dat-ed well's appointment." But he knew Colonel Nobles, of the firm of B-eales, Noble the 6th of that month, in which he informs me of his having called at the lega­ & Garrison of New York and the claim of which he speaks in his lett-er ex­ tion in reference to the matter." panded to ~ne for $614,700 before the commission, of ~hich $250,~ ~as allowed. Whiton admits the conversation, while denying man~ of its deta~. . .. This claim does not appear upon the schedule furrushed by ~m1ster Culver. James S. :Mackie, for twelve years at the head of the o!-lth Ar~?-eriCan dn< ton Murray accompanied Stillwell to.Caracas, where, a~ ev:ents WII~ show, he be­ in the Diplomatic Bureau in the Department ?f State, twtce Umted State COJ?­ came a leading member of the Uru~d States de:putati.on I.n.that City. missioner to South America, made the followmg statement before the colllDllt­ Talmage sought Stillwell' acquamtance durm~ ~ VISit t-o New York from tee of his knowledge of Whiton in this matter: Caracas. Stillwell and Iurray met Talmage while In New York. In Novem­ "With my memorial and with my package of honds, I went to lnr. Talmage's ber they sailed for Caracas, and Talmage followed on the next ve el. office supposino- that! would find him some prominent lawyer or merchant of Jarge'experien~ in New York. I went into acoal-broker'sofficeandfound l\1r. WHAT THE COMMISSION DID. Talmage to be a coal-broker, dealing largely in anthracite coal. I introduced After the organization of the commission by the in~uction of ~Iachado a um­ myself and congratulated him on his appointment, and said: 'Mr. Talmage, I pire the first thing wa to settle the rules to regulate 1ts proceedmgs. The most want you to do mea favor-to look at a memorial which I have here (referring imp~rtant of these were to the effect that the claims were to be listed by the to a parcel of bonds). Have the goodness to c;ount the bonds over and to ~e ecretary in the order in which they were presented. (As they were prese~ted that they are all there, as st.ated in my memonal, and take charge of them .m from the American legation, thi put it in Stillwell's power to arrange the liSt.) behalf of American citizens, whom I represent as attorney.' Mr. TalmagesaHl, • I can not have anything to do with that kind of business.' I said, I beg your T~,a:.--Each claim shall be considered by the commission according to _the order pardon; I thought you wer~ a co~missioner o~ the part of. the UD:ited States ~o in which it may appear on the secretary's list; and shall be finally deCided upon represent our citizen .' Satd he, I have nothmg to do With taking ~barge of by the commissioners in the same order, within five days, to count from that their claims.' I said, 'l\Ir. Talmage, if you will excuse my personality, I was upon which the commission hall have resolved to consider it.'' twelve years in the Department of State, and I have known about all the com­ missions to the Spani h govern:.:nents in th~t ~ime, and I haye never y~t ~1eard -.+n.Jb:~x;~' !~~;d shall be made upon any claim by virtue of the decision of a commissioner either an Amencan commiSSIOner or a foretgn commiSsiOner, the commissioners or that of the umpire the commissioners shall issue certifi­ say that it was ~o part of his duty to tak_e charge of the cl~im of his fellow;-ci~i­ cates of the sum or urns to be paid the respective claimant or claimants (of l~ke z-ens I take it that that is one of the obJects of your appomtment.' He said, I tenor and date) in such number and for such amount each as the respective can ~ot recognize that at all. I will have nothing to do with it.' I then aid, claimant, agent, or attorney may request: P,·ovided, That whenever more than '1\Ir. Talmage I was acommi ioner of the United tates myself to Peru, and I one certificate shall be issued for or on account of any one award the amounts felt it not only a duty but a privilege to give every attention that I could to Amer­ in the ao-gre!mte in such several certificates expressed shall not exceed the ican claims before I went abroad.' He still per isted. I said, 'It is very strange; amount ;;f tb~ sum awarded such respective claimant by virtue of the decision here I am an attorney for the e recognized claims, a nd you, a commissioner, made by the commissioners or the umpire, as provided in article 3 of the con­ refuse to taka- charge of them. What am I to do?' aid he, ' 1\Ir. Mackie, I vention" advise you to go to a gentleman who happens to have a great d~l of that Rules· 3 and 6 were opposed by the Venezuelan commissioner, Conde, but business in his hands and I think he is the best man that you can gtve your were allowed by the umpire. He claimed that the purpose of the last rule was claims to.' I said 'Who is he?' H e said 'l\lr. William H. 'Vhiton.' He gave to enable a division and distribution to be made to parties in interest, without me hisaddress-IthinksomeplaceinJohn streetorl'olaiden Lane. I went down deoendino- upon the good faith of the original claimant. He shrewdly added: to that place, and went through row~ o~bales_of ~Y piled up all through a ~~re­ ' ~ That ;uch a division of the indemnities very probably might arouse in the house, until I came to a gentleman sitting wtth hts hat on at tJ:te desk wri~g. public mind a suspicion that their :product would be divided amo~g several per­ I said • Is 1\Ir. 'Vhiton here?' This gentleman looked up and said 'Yes.' I said, sons, which would lean to the detrrment of the honor and probtty of the com­ ' Whiton is that you?' I recognized in him an old friend and neighbor of mine mission." when I ~as living on the heights of Georgetown. Said I , • I am looking for an­ Wben the umpire decided against him Conde resigned and Villafane was ap­ other man.' He said ''Vho ?' I said, 'A man of the same name, W. H. 'Vhiton.' pointed in his place. He said,' What do y~u want with him ?' I Bfl;id, 'I was t•eferred to hit;n by 1\Ir. After this the business of the commission ran along quite smoothly. Talmage as having charge of Venez~elan clatms; but you have not~ng t? do The umpire was qualified April1 . August 5 the commission closed its labors. with Venezuelan claim?' ' Ye ,'sa1dhe, '!have; Iamtheman.' Withalittle August 6 Talmage and Murray took boat for New York. Stillwell had preceded strength of expression I asked him_what ~e. deuce he kn~w about Venezue~an them, not having been confirmed by the Senate. claim . He said that he had pecuhar famlitie for presentmg them and havmg The commission awarded 1,253,310.30; of which Iurrayrepresented $8.51,000; favorable action upon them. I said, ''Vhiton, I have got a bundle of claims here, Whiton represent-ed $352,000==$1..'203,000; leaving a balan~ allowed_to others of but I do not know why I should give them to you more than to anybody else. $50,000. The claims representea by W oodru:ff and Mackie were pigeon-holed What are you going to charge for taking care of them?' He said, '50 per cent.' "without prejudice," whatever that may mean. aid I, 'That is modest. There is about 180,~ of these claim~, and as lD;UCh Talmage and Murray receipted for, and ca1·ried away, all the certificates of accrued interest, and you want halffor presentmgthe memorial and clanns. award, excepting for 10 000 to Lorenzo H. Finn. All the claims are recognized ; they are simply prote ted notes of Venezuela. I It is not the purpose of the committee to analyze or discuss, to any extent, the can not give you 50 per cent.• because I could not control that.' Said he, 'I can voluminous testimony which has been taken regarding this matter before for­ not do it for le s, for I have gotto divide.' I said, 'Youcannotdivideanyofmy mer committees of this House. friends' money,' and I went out. I then immediately wrote to the Department In 1869 and 1870 we find Stillwell, Talmage, and 1\Iurray all earnestly at 'work of State and transmitted my papers, and I havethereceiptfrom the Department in Washington to secure the passage of an act making the Venezuelan certifi­ of State, in which the Department promised to send them to Venezuela.'' cat-es redeemable by the United States. They were very much interested in be­ It is probable that Ir. Mackie nnstook the brother of Talmage for Talmage half of the holders of these certificates. In this they did not succeed, but they himself. Whiton admitted the interview, but denied many of the details, as he did succeed in procuring the payment of two dividends upon them, one of 7 per had done with 'Voodruff. · cent. and one of 8 per cent. The lett-ers of congratulation which they wrote to MIXI.STER THOMAS N. TILLWELL. one another, not forgetting "Dear John" 1\Ia.drado, are very interesting and suggestive reading, but it is unnecessary for our pre ent purposetodomorethan Thomas N. Stillwell was appointed minister for the Unit-ed Stat-es to Vene­ to refer to them. zuela in the fall of 1867. He was a citizen of Anderson, Indiana, where he was The triumvirate were fi.n!t brought to bay in the Forty-fourth Congre s. president of a bank. He was not confirmed as minister, and returned to Indiana early in 1868. He died in 1874 both he and his bank being largely insolvent. SETH DRIGGS, Stillwell had a brother-in-law, by name William P. Murray, a practicing lawyer a remarkable figure throughout all these transactions, to whom an award of in Saint Paul, 1\linnesota. 1\lurray's eye was quite open to the main chance. about $300,000 was made, partly in his own right and partly as attorney for His character and aspirations can be judged from the following letter, addressed other parties, memorialized Congress, charging that the whole proceedings of by him to Stillwell: the commission had been fraudulent. The following is anextractfromDriggs's OFFICE MINNESOTA INSURANCE COM:P.U.'Y, memorial: Saint Paul, Minn., September 21, 1867. "The commission passed a rule that one claim should be decided within every DEAR ToM: Your letter was received last night. In reply Colonel N oblesJ of five days, and as there were forty-nine claims pending in the legation to be ad­ this city, who was in Venezuela in1862 and 1863, was contracted with by tnat judicated, and only ninety working days remainingofthe twelve months allowed government to run a line of mail st-eamers from New York city and LaGuayra, by the treaty for the commission to conclude its labors, it was believed that not a port of the Republic of Venezuela. This contract was made while Paez was more than half the claims could be adjudicated within the time limited. chief. .As soon as he was deposed and the Falcon faction came in power the "The American minister intimated that those claims supported by powers of contract was abrogated, and this at a time when he had one steamer ready for attorney would have the preference of being sent to the board of commissioners sea and another almost ready. The contract run for thirty years, the Govern­ for adjudication. Mr. Talmage himselfadvised your memorialist to give a power ment of Venezuela paying $50,000 a year for three years and $60,000 for twenty­ ofattorneytol\Iurray, as it would beforhisinterestto do so,andMurraywasvery seven years, with extraordinary privileges. Under this contract Nobles claims urgent; and finally on the the 6th of May, 1868, seven days after the prohibitory damages to a large amount. He i anxious that I should take hold of it for him rule had been pa.Ssed (which was well known to Murray, but concealed from and go out with you. He thinks by seeing Paez, the late chief and president of your memorialist), the power of attorney was signed authorizing Willia.m P. Venezuela, and Dr. J. C. Beales, of New York, that in addition to this claim they l\Iurray to prosecute your memorialist's claims before the mixed commission; could put me on the tra-ck of a large amount of business. Beales resided a n um­ which power had been previously prepared by 1\Iurray 'vith a clause to allow him ber of years in Caracas and is in high fayor with the present party in power. one-half the amount to be adjudicated, with authority for David l\1. Talmage to Nobles has shown me a letter from Beales, in which he offers to give letters to any draw the certificates from the board of commissioners. one who goes out to all the principal men of the republic, and Paez to the prin­ "Under all the circumstances, and considering his advanced age and infirm­ cipal men of his party. I feel di po edto try it on. As soon as you reach Wash­ ities, your memorialist was actually coerced into the measure for fear of being ington I want you to po t your elf thoroughly as to the lay of the land and write left out in the cold, as some others were, whose powers of attorney omitted the me in detail. Johnson should have made the resident minister commissioner, 00-per-cent. clause.'' which he had the power to do under the resolution authorizing the appoint­ Driggs seeiDS to have been willing to pay 50 per eent. upon that part of the ment. The commissioner will make the money. Can not Talmage be rejected award which belonged to him, but charged that Talmage took and retained$150,- by the Senate as commissioner? Nobles will end you a letter of introduction 000, or one-half of the entire award made in his name, while he had only agreed to Dr. Beales-l....and while en ,·oute to Washington, or on return home, I want you to pay one-half of that belonging to hiiDSelf. Driggs's testimony was direct and to see him. .He will post you as to how we shall proceed, &c. positive; if believed it would fully sustain the a.llegations of fraud against Tal­ Colonel Nobles proposes, if I consent to go, to foot the expense-bill in case of mage. Of course this committ-ee are obliged to take the testimony as it reads, a failure to succeed in accomplishing anything. Yet it might be a fellow would without the advantage of seeing and bearing the witness as he gave it. have to stay six or eight months in that God-forsaken country, where a nigger, It is certain, however, that Driggs, a man thoroughly competent to manage a negro, a black man, a colored gentleman, is better than a whit-e man. his own affairs, with his proofs all prepared, himself in Caracas, agreed to pay I would like to have something to do. Can you not, while in Washington, one-half of his immense claim to Murray when allowed, and that Talmage ring me in some way as an attache, consul, attorney, or something else that will should draw the certificat-e . For what innocent purpose this could have been pay? Look to this. It would suit me better to go out the last of November. done can not be conceived, and Driggs swears positively that it was for the pur­ Our courts commence the fall term a week from Monday, and I will be busy pose of bribery and corruption. In the judgment of this committee the admitt-ed most of the month; after they clo e it will take two or three weeks to get every­ fact tend strongly to corroborate his testimony. thing ready. All well. Writ-e me as soon a you make any di covery. Talmage was a witness before the same committee. He was closely pre sed Yours, as to his ownership of certificates of awards made by the commi sion, of which he was a member, and charged with having acted corruptly as such. The fol­ MURRAY. lowing is extracted from his testimony : 1\lurray testified (:\Iiscellaneous Document, Forty-fourth Congress, second ses­ " Question. Did you ever give Mr. Orth to understand that you owned some of sion, page 63), that when he first heard of Stillwell's appointment to Venezuela, these certificates in your own right? "I was as ignorant of Venezuela as an ordinary member of Congress would be •• Answer. I presume so. • of .Jerusalem. I don't know that I had ever heard of it until I heard of l\1r. Still- " Q. State how much you owned? 1292 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD- HOUSE. JANUARY 17,

''A. I have no idea. ".A.. I do ; yes, sir. "Q.. l''rom whom did you get them, and in what manner? "Q. Then he is wrong about it? "A. I can not tell exactly; my impression is that what I bad I bought. In " A. Well, I am correct so far a my statement is concerned. I do not know dis~singof certificates, elling them, &c., I bought some my elf at times. what h e swore to. . ' Q. From whom did you ever buy any? "Q. Are you sure that he has paid you thi amount of money in cash for these "A. I was interested in orue that! bought from Murray. certificates ? "Q. How much did you buy from Murray? ".A.. W ell, I know lJlat he has." "A. I can not tell you exactly. · Murray wa very forgetful and uncertain how Talmage paid him; only he " Q. Tho e certificate that you bought from Murray, did they have the name wa sure it was in currency, and could not tell where he depo ited or used the of Se tJ1 Dri~ as payee? money. 11 A. No, srr. But T almage was not the only one to be covered by 1\Iurray' protection. :: Q. You <;an not tell ho many of these certificates you owned at that time? Stillwell died in 1874. Among the assets of the bank which he had hipwre ked A. No, str. were found ,400 of the Venezuela certificates pledged for hi overdrafts. How "Q. Nor from whom you bought them, except that you bought ome of them cam~ they into his po e ion? 1\lurray attempted to explain this by saying the from Murray? bonds were hi ; that he had left. them with Stillwell for safe-keeping, and that " A. I recollect buying some of them from :Murray. he had pledged them without leave for his own indebtedn . '\Vhy, living in " Q. ·what did you pay Murray for them? Saint Paul, 1\Iinnesota, h e should have d eposited these bond in Anderson, In­ " A . I think I paid about 30 cents on the dollar. diana, for safe-kee ping, or why he should have o depo ited a portion and not " Q. How much did you buy from Murray? all of which h e w a the fortunate possessor, is not apparent to an ordinary un­ "A. I do not know. derstanding. " Q. Did you buy 1,000 or $50,000 of certificates? Another remarkable witnes appeared before the committee of the Forty-fifth "A. I may have bought $6,000 or $7,000 of certificates. Congress in the person of John C. Nobles, brother of Colonel Nobles, of Beales, " Q. Did you pay in ca h for them 30 cents on the dollar? Nobles & Gamsen, who had died. John C. swore that his brother disclosed to "A. I did. him before his death the frauds by which the award were made by the com­ " Q. When was that? mission, and gave him a letter from :Murray, in which Murray wrote to him in " A. I can not tell. detail how much he paid to ditl'erent parties to a-ccomplish his purpose . "Q. Can you give any idea? 1\:lurray denied writing this letter, which would have been exact and conclu­ "A. No, sir; it wa a couple of years ago. sive evidence. It was exhibited to the committee, but as the te timony of No­ :: Q. Was ~t not immediately after your return from Venezuela? bles was hearsay and scarcely warranted by rule, this committee choose not to A. No, su. dwell upon it at length. "Q. Did you come from Venezuela. with ?t!urray? . There wa very much more testimony, the reading of which conduces to es­ " A. ldid. tablish the truth of the charges of fraud alleged by Venezuela. The committee "Q. Did you purcha e any of these certificates from him in New York on has, however1 thought best to call special attention to the above ~>Oints taken y~~r arriva~ from Venezuela? from the parttes themselves. We can not see how our predece sors m the Forty­ .A.. No,su. fourth and Forty-fifth Congresses, from the testimony before them, could have :: Q. Not o.ne? tailed to reach the conclusions they did, and which are already stated in this re­ A. No, su. . port. In our opinion any hone t and intelligent jury, upon the recorded testi­ "Q. Do you mean you bought ,000 or $7,000 worth of them, or bought cer- mony, would convict Talmage, Machado, Stillwell, and Murray of conspiring to tificates of that amount of face-value? defraud Venezuela through the mixed commi ion of 1867 and 1868. " A. That o.monnt of face-value. Having concurred in the conclusions reached by our predece ors, to the effect " Q . What have you done with tho e certificates? that members of the mixed commission were improperly interested in the "A. I sold them. cl.aims before them, it remains to decide what legislative action we shall recom­ "Q. T()whom? mend. " A. I can not tell you. Congress can not remain inactive and allow these awards to be enforced again t "Q. Did you ever draw any dividends on them? Venezuela and distributed to lJlese guilty conspirators; they have already se­ "A. No,silt." cured too much of their booty. Nor can the committee, after examining the A few page further along we find the following: testrmony and reaching the conclusions tated above, adopt the recommendation of t.he Secretary of ' tate and refer the awards for examination to the Court of ;; Q. Do y~u own any of these certificates now? Claims. .A.. No, srr. The Committee on Foreign Relations of the Senate, during the present es­ " Q. How long is it ince you owned any of them? ion, through its chairman, 1\Ir. WINDOM, have reported on a bill r eferring the "A. Six months or a year; a. year at least, I think. Venezuela award to the Court of Claims, a follows: "Q. From whom did you purchase the la t certificate t.lmt you bad 't "That in their opinion lJle Court of Claims can not be cloth d with jurisdiction to "A. From l\Iurray. modify ora.nnul the action of the commis ion organized under the provi ions of "Q. Where is Murray now? the act of .April20, 1866, between the Governments of the United State and Vene­ "A. I suppo e in aint Paul l\Iinnesota. zuela. The committee are also of the opinion that the D epartment of State bus ' Q. How many certificates does he own? full power a nd authority touching the distribution of the money paid in under ".A.. I do not know. the award · made by said commission, and they therefore recommend the indefi­ " Q. How many did you purchase from him then ? nite po tponement of said bills." ".A.. From seven to ten. The ground of decision taken by this committee r nder it unnecessary to "Q. At 30 cents on the dollar? di. cuss the correctne s of the foregoing opinion. "A. I am not certa.in about that; it wa · between 30 and 40 cents." The treaty with Venezuela provides for a commission to con ider the claims This uncertA.in knowledge under uch circumstances was certainly su picious. of American citizens against Venezuela. There has been no valid commission In the Forty-fifth Congre ~Iunay was a witne before the committee. It a called for by that treaty. would seem that he had not reviewed the testimony given before the last com­ The alleged comnliABion was a conspiracy; its proceedings were tainted with mittee with sufficient care. He swore that he had sold Talmage certificates. fraud. Tha t fraud affects its entire proceedings. It was di eased throughout; He swore to elling him three lots. After he had given this te timony the fol­ and there is no m ethod known to the committee by which to epara.te the fraud­ lowing questions and answers appear: ulent part from the honest part and establish any portion in oundne and "Question. Then you old him in aU $30,000, $25,000, and $14,000 of them ? integ rity. FalsttS in uno, falsus in omnis. "Answer. I sold him in all $69,000. It i a principle not only of the common law but of univer al juri prudence "Q. How much money did you g et for them? that fraud vitiate every a~t, public or private. No record, however solemn, ".A.. At my figuring, ther e was $30,000 at33tcent , 14,000 atl5cents,and~ , OOO estop an allegation of fraud. Judgment of court of competent juri diction at 10 cents, making ~14,600 . impart a bsolute v erity whenever they are brought in que tion, but if obtained "Q. 1\:Ir. Talmage, then, ha paid you in cash 14,600 for i69,000 of th se certifi- by fraud they are set aside. es,~? . Justice to Venezuela demands that the! e proceeding: hould b e et a ide .A.. Yes, str. . peedily and without circuitous action. The Court of Claim is an American "Q. How do you explain that in connection with thi testimony of Mr. -Tal- tribnnal in who e creation Venezuela has no voice, and to whose juri diction mage, on page 92 of the printed report: she has not submitted. he has agreed to submit these claims to a mixed com­ "'A. I recollect buying some of them of Ir. l\Iurray. mis ion . and as yet there has been no such tribunal where action is binding and " 'Q. What did you pay Murray for them? valid. ::she1 i now ready to co-operate with our Executive in creating such a " '.A.. I think I paid 30 cents on the dollar. commission, and professes to be ready to perform its awards. .A. great nation " 'Q. How much did you buy from 1\Iurray ? seeking a po ition of highest influence among the republics of the continent can · '"A. I do not know. not afford to do anything in her own dealings with the e republics inconsistent " 'Q. Did you buy $1,000 or $5,000 of certificates? with exact and impartial justice. Her honor must be kept unstained. '\Ve do " 'A. I may have bought $6,000 or $7,000 of certificates. not recognize any conceivable danger to innocent holders of these certificates o:: "' Q. Did you pay in cash for them 30 cents on the dollar? award if any such there are. The certificates h ave no uch chara-cter as to ex~ "'.A.. I did. empt them from the equities between the original parties. Moreover, the same '' 'Q. When was that? precautions sugge ted for the protection of innocent holders can be provided re· "'A. I can not say.' garding tlle awards of new commissions. " The WITNES . That was t.he last purchase. Justice to the parties who ref ' ed to comply with the demands of the con­ spirators, and who e claim we e not considered by the former commission, re­ "Mr. SPRINGER (continuing quotation): quires a new one by whom th y can be heard and judged according to t heir " ' Q. Can you give any idea? merits. "'A. No, sir; it was a couple of years ago. Your committee the eport the following joint resolution, and recom· " 'Q. Was it immediately after your return lrom Venezuela! mend its adoption. "'A. No sir. All of which i respec " 'Q.. Did you come from Ca.racas with Murray? "'A. ldid. 1\lr. RICE, of 1\fassachusett.s. 1\Ir. Speaker, I hope the unpopularity "' Q. Did you purchase any of these certificates from him in New York, on your arrival from Venezuela? which must attach to the author of this report will not be visited on "'A. No, ir. the cause he represents, and that the members of this House, already "' Q. Not one? wearied by attention to its reading, will accord to me a little patience "'A. No,sir. "' Q. Do you mean that you bought $6,000 or $7,000 w o rth of them, or bought while I endeavor to explain the reasons which have induced its adop­ cert.ificates of that amount of face value? tion by the Committee on Foreign Affairs. " 'A. That amount of face value. llfay 25, 1882, the Pr ident of the Urn ted. States, by special message " 'Q. What have you done with those certificates? " 'A. 1 sold them. to this Hous , communicated a letter of the Secretary of State, .Ybich '' 'Q. To whom? may b e found on the thirty-first page of the report, in the appendix, " 'A. I can not tell you. and in that message the President uses these words: " 'Q. Did you ever draw any dividends on them? "'A No sir' I earne tly invit the attention of Congress to this communication and the ac­ "N~w, it se~ms that after a very sharp examination of l'rir. Talmage, he only companying in.clo ures. Inca e neither House takes action upon it during the admitted to have bought, on the face value, $6.1~ or $7,000 of these certificates present Congre , I sltall feel it my duty to direct that this ~rolonged discu sion from you, yet you say here that you sold him ~9 , 000 worth. be definitely terminat-ed by recognizing th absolute valid1ty of all the awards. lt383. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. 1293

It becomes, therefore, Mr. -speaker, not only the privilege but the close of the letter, and I call the att-ention of the House to it as disclos­ imperative duty of this House to consider the subject of these awards, ing the true character of the writer, he says: in order that the honor of the nation may be preserved and that no in­ As soon as you reach Washington I want you to post yourself thoroughly as justice be done to a sister republic. This communication of the Presi­ to the lay of the land, and write me in detail. Johnson should have made the resident minister commissioner, which he had the power to do under the resolu­ dent was referred to the Committee on Foreign Affairs of this House; tion authorizing the appoinb:nent. The commissioner uriU •make the money. and that committee, with substantial unanimity, instructed me to pre­ sent the report with the accompanying resolution which has been laid This man saw that there was an opportunity for the commissioner to before the House. make the money, and he desired that his brother-in-law should be com­ In its decision the committee of this House but followed the example missioner rather than minister, and then desired, to use his own elegant of the committees of three successive Congresses immediately preceding. language,·that his brother-in-law should "ring him in" somewhere for This i the fourth report, made in four successive Congresses, which, a share of the spoils. with almost unanimous accord, have denounced these awards as fraudu­ Murray was the first of the American representatives to set foot upon lent and invalid. And in the face of this fact, and of the fact that the the soil of Venezuela; he preceded his brother-in-law StillweJl, who very President says that their enforcement can only be prevented by action soon followed him. In the mean time Talmage was getting ready to go of at least one House of Congress at this session, we feel that we have to Venezuela. Stillwell and Murray had no previous a-cquaintance with the right to call the attention of the House for a short time to their con­ Talmage. They formed that acquaintance very soon after they came sideration. together in Cara·cas. They were after the same game and concluded to Venezuela is the broa-d right shoulder of South America, thrust out hunt in company. into the waters of the ocean. Its mountains are lofty, its rivers are The first business of the commission was to choose an umpire; and mighty, its valleys are fertile. Its Spanish conquerors, when they first here is the first point in the conduct of the United States commissioner, discovered it, thought they detected in its wave-indented shores some Talmage, to which I desire to call the attention of the House, as tend­ resemblance to old Venice, and called it in musical syllables Venezuela­ ing to impeach his integrity as eommissioner. The commissioners, by Little Venice. Its inhabitants are Spanish, Indians, negroes, and mixed. the terms of the treaty, were to choose an umpire. Talmage named Their blood is heated by the sun of the tropics; their passions are strong; one T. G. 0. Rolandus. Blanco, on behalfofVeneznela, said that he their impulses are restless. Their soil is the cradle ofearthquakes , and would be content with any one of the four ministers resident in Vene­ their society of revolutions. zuela, either of England, France, Germany, or Spain. Talmage refused From 1808 to 1828 Venezuela was distracted by a succession of re-.o­ to accepteitherofthem; he said that he had nominated a good man, and lutions which were denominated a war for independence, but were he would not abandon that name, but insist upon it. really frequently only contests between rival chieftains for supremacy After some little delay Blanco resigned. He had a revolution to at­ in the state. Among these Bolivar at lengt.h became supreme, and tend to just about that time, and one Conde was appointed commissioner established a somewhat settled government, which was maintained for in his stead. a few years, during his lifetime, after which revolutions again broke Immediately upon Conde being qualified for his position, he enlarged out, and have succeded one another with but little interruption until the proposition which Blanco had made, and said that he would not in­ a time near the present. sist upon the nomination of either of the four ministers as umpire, but During all these troubles in Venezuela claims were accumulated would be content to take somebody else; and he named eleven respect­ ~oainst that state by citizens of many nations; claims contracted with able gentlemen, one of· whom was Mr. Stirrup, consul-general of Den­ one of the chieftains ,or another, with one government or another. mark, and often intrusted with the matters of the American legation Some of these claims were contracted by American citizens. The at­ during the absence of its representative from the capital of Venezuela. tention of the State Department' of this Government was frequently Talmage replied, "No; Rolandus or nobody," and then said, "There brought to these claims, and in 1864 Secretary Seward instructed Mr. can be no agreement. I insist upon Rolandus, and if you will not take Culver, then minister of the United States to Venezuela, to ascertain him, then let us certify to our respective go-.ernments that we can not and report in regard to the amount of claims of citizens of the United agree, and let the minister of Russia at Washington make the selection States ~

well, and saw to it that Secretary Seward was notified, that the name Mr. RICE, of Uassachusetts. Another claim was by one Seth Driggs, might be inserted in the original defective certificate of Baron Stoeckl, who had been imprisoned in Caracas for alleged forgery and perjury, and thereby the proceedings of the commissioner confirmed and made and I know not what other crimes, and he claimed he had been dam­ valid. Who was this person? aged, I think, 100,000-at any rate, a large sum-for being imprisoned ltlark one thing, ltlr. Speaker; fom days before Talmage sailed for there, and these righteous commissioners awarded him an amount as a New York to notifY the Government that he and the Venezuelan com­ gratuity to his wounded feelings for imprisonment in the prisons of missioner could not agree upon the selection of an umpire he had ap­ Caracas on a charge of forgery and perjury. pointed this very Juan N. Machado, jr., his own private attorney to Mr. BUTTERWORTH. How much did they allow him? negotiate certain business transactions which he as a private individual M:r. RICE, of Massachusetts. I think only 35,000 for that; he got had in the Republic of Venezuela. He therefore knew this man. He 100,000 for something else. knew his name. He came to New York and had communication with Now, that is the characterofthese seven awards. I am not going to our Government, he had communication with Baron Stoeckl, and the consider them any further. result was the appointment as umpire of the commission of the very I want to say right here that it is not every claim made by the citi­ man whom four days before he left Cara.ca he had selected as his own zen of one government against a foreign government which is entitled private attorney. to the protection and support of that government. It is iliscretionary It is true that Riva , the representatiYe of Venezuela in the United with the government to say whether the character of the claim is such States at that time, dwelling in New York, concuned in Talmage's rec­ as to entitle it to be presented and enforced by itself. ommendation of Machado, but there is no evidence that he knew Juan Lord Palmerston in 1 4 , in a celebrated circular letter addressed to N. :Machado, jr.; and afterward, when the commission had done its the iliplomatic representatives of Great Britain, asserts this policy, and work, and its integrity had been attacked, he said, this same Riva , to I believe it is the correct policy for all governments, that claim of a Castro, then the representative of Venezuela to the United States, that speculative character made by the subjects of Great Britain must not he was induced to recommend Machado because he was a citizen of Ven­ be supported against the governments against which they are made. ezuela, and he thought that he would not therefore be unfavorable to He said that it would encourage citizens of that nation to make invest­ his native state. Therefore he was induced-induced by whom ?-in­ ments for high rates of interest, speculative investments of British capi­ duced to concur in recommeniling his appoir\,tment, for which he had tal in insecure countries, and then 1·ely upon the protection of their afterward been very son-y. own home government to enforce the claims. I call this policy to the Now we have the commission complete. Talmage, Conde, forwhom attention of this House as what should be inaugurated, as it seems to Villafane was very soon substituted, and Machado as umpire, and Mm­ me, in regard to many classes of claims which are prefen-ed by citizens ra.y, the brother-in-law of Stillwell, occupying the same house with of the United States against these small, restless, revolutionary repub­ Stillwell, as attorney, preparing claims to be presented before the com­ lics of Central and South America. mission. The first thing after the commission was completed and the When a man, for the sake of great gains, makes loans or investments next thing to which I desire to call the attention of the House, as im­ in countries which are distracted by revolution, he takes his risk; the peaching the integrity of this commission, was the adoption of rules by doctrine of contributory negligence should apply to him, and this coun­ the casting vote of Machado by which the claims were to be presented try should say, ''You put yourself in danger voluntarily. You thought by the American minister, Stillwell, and to be considered in the order you saw where you could reap sufficient reward to justifY the risk. W of their presentation. The claims were then arranged by the American can not follow you there to exact doubtful and exaggerated compensa­ minister's brother-in-law, Murray, and were laid before the commis­ tion or remuneration from the nation into which you thus recklessly sion. What was the result? Minister Culver, less than four years be­ thrust yourselves.'' fore, had reported that there were but 276,000 of claims which he Mr. Speaker, I have called the attention of the House to the charac­ could ascertain against Venezuela. ter and the amount of the.claims upon which awards were rendered by Before this commission were presented 4,823,000 of claims, and there this commission against Venezuela by the vote of the umpire, most of were allowed 1,253,000. The commi ioners agreed to 459,000, and which, as it appears to the committee, were baseless and fraudulent. Talmage and Machado to the balance, $794,000. Not one of these last, Of all the claims which were allowed by the commission, it is a remark­ with possibly oue small exception, can be found in the lists of tho e able fact that Mu,rray, who wanted to be "rung" in for something, ap­ which were ascertained by ·Minister Culver and reported to Secretary peared as attorney in 851,000 of the 1,250,000; and a man, Whiton, Seward. I have no doubt that the $459,000 of claims are ubstuntially in the city ofNew York, as attorney for 352,000of the balance; leav­ just, and have been, and will be, concurred in by Venezuela. This ing only $50,000 of the entire urn that were not represented by either $794,000 were claimsilisallowed by the Venezuelan representative, but Murray or Whiton. I have told you who Murray was. I desire now allowed by Talmage and Machado, and against which it is charged that to tell you who Whiton was. Whiton lived in New York. He says in they are fraudulent and were allowed by fraudulent means and for his testimony before the committee: fraudulent purposes. That after the departure of David M. Talmage to Venezuela in July, 1867, it oc­ Those claims are seven in number. They are stated in the appendix curred to him (Whiton) that he might buy up or prosecute or otherwi e intere t himself in any claims of American citizens against the R-epublic of Venezuela to the report which has been read. They are in favor of four individ­ that might seem to him well grounded in law and equity. And thereupon he uals and one firm, and as I said are in seven items. The first of them visited Henry Talmage, brother to the said commissioner, and inquired of the is the claim which l\Ir. Murray had picked up when he wrote his letter said Henry Talmage whether he was acquainted with any of the claims or had any knowledge of any kind of the claims. The said Whiton, thinking that in to his brother-in-law, ''Dear Tom,'' and asking that he might be rung the absence of the oommis ioner claimants would natm:a.llyvisit his brother, re­ in somewhere, as he wanted to make some money. It is a claim in quest-ed the said Henry Talmage to refer such parties to said Whiton, which tho fa.vor of Beales, Nobles & Garrison. This claim was presented by said Talmage agreed to do. Murray for some four or five hundred thousand dollars. Two hundred Whiton had never been in Venezuela. He had no interest in Vene­ and fifty thousand dollars was the modest sum a:waroed by Talmage zuela. He testified he knew nothing about Venezuela till this occurred and Machado. to him. Itwasquiteremarkable, therefore, that he should sosuddenly What was the claim ?-and I do not propose to weary you with a have become interested in this. to him, before unknown republic and prolonged discussion of these claims-what wa the claim? The e subject. claimant , Beales, Nobles & Garrison, asserted that they made a con­ Wnat is the secret of 1\ir... Whiton's interest? I will not read to you traet with Paez, who was dictator of Venezuela for a few month , not the evidence on the subject, but I will state it substantially. One recognized by the United States, to establish and run a line of steam- Henry Woodruff, are pectable gentleman of New York, says that, rep­ hips between Venezuela and New York. They never did anythinato resenting Venezuelan claims, he called upon Mr. Talmage to find what c..'brry out the contract; they never spent a dollar; they never built a he should do with them. First he called upon the brother of Mr. Tal­ ship; they never laid the keel of a ship; they made no expen e . The mage, commissioner, who he says referred him to ltfr. Whiton, "who government of Paez went down. Nothing was done about the contract. he informed me attended to all matters relating to the Venezuelan mat­ But they claimed through Murray they would have made fom or five ters, for ltfr. Talmage." Mr. Woodruff went to !vir. Whiton. ltfr. hundred thousand dollars out of the contract if they had canied it out. Whiton said he would take charge of the matter, upon condition that Murray took the claim, can-ied it ~ Caracas, presented it before the the claimant should enter into an agreement to permit him to designate commission, and got 250,000 allowed upon it. an attorney to act in the matter in Caracas and receive the certificates M. SPRINGER. The gentleman from Massachusetts might state of awards that might be made, and that in consideration of the service also the manner in which that claim was divided. he should retain one-half of the awards. ltfr. Woodruff suggested to Mr. RICE, of Massachusetts. I am coming to that in a moment. him that he thought this rather steep; but Mr. Whiton said he would The gentleman from Illinois [ltfr. SPRINGER] knows all about this; he not forward any claim for less than one-half, and '' as to one claim,'' has been over it before. I am coming to that, and the gentleman will he said, ''we have two-thirds.'' ''That claim,'' said he, ''will appear rake up after me if I omit anything. No. 1 on the list;" and it ilid. The modest sum of 252,000 was Another claim was presented to the commission, upon which$11,500 awarded upon it. was allowed, by a man who claimed that he had been whipped by an lli. Mackie, for twelve years head of the bureau for South America Italian in Caracas and was so frightened he did not dare to stay and in the Department of State in this city-a gentleman of unquestionable sell his goods, and therefore was obliged to sacrifice them and lose integrity and veracity-also called to see what he could do about cer­ that amount; and that claim was allowed by Talmage and Machado. tain claims which he represented. He found Mr. Talmage himself, and Mr. SPRINGER. A case of consequential damages. Mr. Talmage himself referred him to Mr. Whiton. According to the . 1883. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. 1295

testimony of 1\Ir . .Mackie this honest commissioner said, '' I advise you State, declaring that the proceedings of the commission had been fraud­ to go to a gentleman who happens to have a great deal of this business ulent, and therefore ought not to be enforced. in his hands; I think he is the best man you can give your claim to." It has been said sometimes that Venezuela did not make complaint "Who is it?" "Ur. Whiton,"saidMr.Talmage. Mr.l\Iackiewent promptly and at once, but I have here the letter of De Cantro to Grant, to Mr. Whiton, and stated he had a bundle of claims. Mr. Whiton within a year after the dissolution of the commission, assailing these said, "I have peculiaradvantages for presenting claims." ' "What will claims and saying they were fraudulent. I say that Venezuela was not you charge for taking care of mine? '' ''Fifty per cent.'' '' That is mod­ remiss, that she did press upon our Government at once and has per­ est," said Mr. Uackie; the claim was for $180,000. Said Mr. Whiton, sistently pressed it ever since that the proceedings of this commission ''I can not do it for less, for I have to divide.'' ''You can not divide were tainted by fraud. any of my money,'' said 1tir. Ma{)kie. That claim was not allowed. To be sure, the early Secretaries, Seward, Fish, Washburne, did not Mr. Woodruff's claim was not allowed by these commissioners. These listen to the charges made bythe Venezuela representatives. Why not? men would not ''divide.'' Because they were unable then to prove them. Investigations were not Mr. SPRINGER. Mr. Mackie represented the Aspinwalls, of New had which have since been had before committees of Congress, and the York. facts which I have detailed to you had not then been spread upon the Mr. RICE, of Massachusetts. Yes, sir; he represented the famous records of Congress, and no Secretary of State, no committee of this house of the Aspinwalls, of New York, and that claim was simply House, since those investigations and since that testimony, has declared pigeon-holed when it got out there. It was presented by somebody else anything else than that these awards were tainted with fraud and there­ than Mr. Murray or Mr. Whiton. fore ought not to be enforced. Said Mr. Whiton to Mr. W oodrnff, '' You will recollect I must name ·But, Mr. Speaker, I see my time is passing. I am like a counsel sum­ the attorney." Whom did Whiton name as attorney to represent his ming up in an hour a case the testimony upon which it has taken months claims before the commission and to rece~ve the awards? Mr. Speaker, to put in. I am only able to touch the most prominent points, leaving will it be credited when I say that Talmage, commissioner, was the at­ the great bulk of the testimony undiscussed and unreferred to. torney of record of William H. Whiton, prosecutor of claims, and re­ One thing more I desire to say. Fifteen percent. oftheseclaimswas ceipted for and brought home toNew York the certificates of the awards exacted by the early Secretaries. Fifteen per cent. has been paid of which were made? these awal'ds, and a balance of 221,000 is in the Treasury exacted from There was yet another man, one of the principals whom Woodruff Venezuela and remaining to be divided. represented. He could not believe this story that Mr. Woodruff told Mr. SPRINGER. In the custody of the Secretary of State. him; that he must pay 50 per cent. of his claim in order to get it con­ Mr. RICE, of 1t!assachusetts. Yes, in the custody of the Secretary sidered. He went himself to lli. Whiton and asked him about it. of State. It has never been covered into the Treasury. Whiton said to him as a reason why he should allow him 50 per cent. Now, Mr. Speaker, when these matters come before Congress whom of this money: "I have certain relations with the commissioners, and do we :find here at once taking charge of the matters and seeking, in I have great influence with them. . I can have your claim passed if we the first place, that the United States Government should assume the can make an engagement." payment of these certificates and then collect the amount from V ene­ Both 1\ir. Whiton and Mr. Talmage deny that they had anything to zuela. Who? Talmage, Murray, Stillwell, allhere, confreresinVene­ do with each other in this matter. All criminal lawyers know what zuela, transferring the scene of their operations from Caracas to Wash­ the testimony of parties is worth. You may believe what they say or ington, seeking to induce the Congress of the United States t.o assume you may disbelieve it, but you are very likely to get a good deal of in­ the payment of 1,250,000 of awards whichhadbeenmadein the man­ formation out of their testimony upon the subject under investigation ner I have stated against the sister Republic of Venezuela. They were which they do not intend to impart. They deny that they had anything broughtto baybyoldSethDriggs, who, when he came tothinkthemat­ to do with each other in this matter; and Whiton denies that he had ter over, thought he had paid rather too much for his award, and con­ these conversations with these other men. But they are respectable cluded he would tell the whole thing. He presented a statement of men, each and all. And it is for this House to decide whether the com­ facts in a memorial to Congress, which led to the investigation conducted mittee was not right in believing them rather than the parties accused. by the committee of which m.y friend from illinois [Mr. SPRINGER] was One thing more. Mr. Woodruff saw 1tir. Talmage after he returned a. member. . to New York, and complained to him that he had not allowed the claim · I say these men appe.aredheretolobbytheirclaimsthroughCongress; which he had sent out there. What did Mr. Talmage say? "You and w~n they testified in behalf of these awards Talmage was asked, ought to have put it into Whiton's hands when I told you to." He "Do you own any of these certificates of awards?" I only give sub­ does not say, "It would have been allowed if you had done so;" but stantially the interrogatories and answers, as I can not take time to he says, ''You ought to have done that.'' What is the inference? The read them. He answered, ''Yes; I do.'' ''How many?'' ''I think inference is irresistible that Whiton was an aUer ego for Talmage, and I own six or seven thousand dollars." "Where did you get them?" that the two were interested in the awards. ''I do not know.'' Finallt,, however, he thought he bought them of Mr. Speaker, I have.shown that of the 1,250,000 awarded by this 1\Iurray. He was asked, ' Do you mean six or seven thousand dollars commission all but $50,000 was upon claims which were represented in value or in amount?" He said, "Inamount." A little later Mur­ by either Murray or Whiton. There was one man named Driggs, an ray was put on the stand and he testified that he had sold Talmage at old man who had had many years of business, and rough business, too, one time 30,000; at another, 25,000; at another, $14,000-makingin in Venezuela, who had claims, some of them just, probably, and some all $69,000. of them unjust. He was in Venezuela at the time the commission was The SPEAKER. The gentleman s time has expired. sitting there. He had prepared his papers, as he swears. His claim was all Mr. WHITE. Mr. Speaker, I move that the gentleman be allowed ready for presentation before the commissioners when he was induced­ by unanimous consent to proceed tmtil he concludes his remarks. this man accustomed to law was induced-to make Murray his attor­ Several MEMBERS. Go on. ney and to promise him 50 per cent. of whatever sum might be awarded The SPEAKER. Without objection the gentleman will proceed. to him by the commission. There was no objection. Thereupon some $300,000 were awarded on the various claims of Seth Mr. RICE, of Massachusetts. Mr. Sp~ker, I regret to trespass upon Driggs, of which Talmage retained one-half the certificates for Murray. the patience of the House, but this is a matter, as I said at the outset, Driggs swears that Talmage told him to go to Murray and put his claim of some importance, and there are a few points yet 1·emaining which I into his hands, and when the claim was put into Murray's hands it was desire to discuss before I leave this subject. I will therefore trespass allowed and a power of attorney was given by Driggs and Murray to upon the forbearance of the House for a little while longer. I said that Talmage that he might receive the certificates of award and divide them Talmage declared that he had about six or seven thousand dollars' worth between Driggs and Murray. Murray was to have 50 percent. ofthem. of these certificates of award and no more; while Murray said that he When Talmage gave the certificates to Murray and Driggs he exa

M:r. SPRINGER. And Talmage being the judge who made the and are never reached, reports of very great importance, and this very award. instance is an illustration. Mr. RICE, of Massachusetts. Now, Mr. Spea.ker, what said Benja­ A practice, b1r. Speaker, seems to have sprung up on the part of a min L. Swann when these questions and answers were read to him? certain class of our citizens who display enterprise in gathering up old What reply have you to make to his tatementthat youpaidhimthatmoney? and fraudulent claims against various governments in South America, I never paid him a ·cent of any kind for any purpo e or in any manner, form, or and then come here to the State Department at one time and to com­ shape; not o. cent. 'Vn thatMr. Talmage'ste timony? Thereisnotruthinthe statement that I paid him anything. It is true it might have come from Bogart mittees of Congress at other and by ex parte statements obtain the sanc­ and Kneeland- tion of the one or the other branch ofthe Government. Great scandals They were partners of Swann- are likely to arise from uch a practice, and we should watch them hut it is impo ible, for they had no money to pay it. with care. Do you know of any of your associates paying him money for s uch services? During this very Congress one of the most monstrous jobs that we I do not. have ever known, the hipherd claim, was presented to the country If Bogart and Kneeland had paid a nything it would h a ve been on that account, and you would have been called upon for your share of the assessment to meet through the Committee on Foreign Affairs, and it appeared that some of that expense? the mo t eminent citizens of this country were either disposed to enter I presume so. into the criminal purpo e, or were duped by him. One of the claims Your associate have not oonsulted with you about paying him anything? No, sir. connected with that investigation was known a the Landreau claim. And you did not assent to any such paymeJ;J.t? Acting without proper care a committee of this House tmanimously re­ No, sir; of course not. I never was consulted about it at all. ported that the Government of the United States should use its good Who, then, did pay you? offices for the collection of that claim. I apprehend that no gentleman Talmage wa asked as a final corner que tion with reference to his now, in view of our troubles in South America and the discussions which employment here. And who, 1\Ir. Speaker, of all the world, wa,s the have taken place, would be silent if any committee should eek to bring one, according to his own testimon , by whom this money was paid to that or any imilar claim forward. It is well, therefore, for us to exam­ Talmage to appear in Washington? William H. Whiton, his alte:r ego, ine with care-with uspicion, if you please-any e:trort on the part of for whom he took out the claims to Caracas and for whom he brought citizens of this country to make and enforce claims against the feeble baek the certificates of award. governments in South America. Now, Mr. peaker, I do not know Dand 1\f. Talmage. I ne>er saw In the instance presented by the present resolution there was a sched­ him to my knowledge; but I say that I find him in the firt place in ule of claims amounting to 30 ,000 made out by Ron. E. D. Culver, suspicious relations with a man in New York to whom very large minister of the United States to Venezuela. award were made by himself; I find him insisting upon a single man This was the basis of the commission. This was the occasion of the as umpire, which man was himself a large claimant, who was the owner treaty and the especial matter to which the attention of the commission .of a large claim and afterward presented before the commission; I find was called: him, as I believe, abandoning that candidate to secure the appointment Sub equently, after the ratification of the treaty, there came a series of his own confidential friend attorney; I :find him denying the owner­ of details in connection with this matter which it is important for this ship of the certificates of award. House to carefully understand in order that they may see as I think I find him when the certificates are traced into his possession unable that this is not an exceptional case to the general conduct in reference to to explain where he got them. I find him affirming that he was em­ claims in this country against South American governments. We had ployed to represent the Venezuelan claimants before a committee of nominated about the time of the submission of these claims a minister Congress, when these claimants denied that they had ever employed him. to Venezuela, a :Mr. tillwell, who had a secretary oflegation at Cara­ I find him recommending claimant after claimant to the man Whiton, cas, a 1\1r. Murray. :Mr. Murray, in a communication in thi testimony, whose attorney he was, and with whom it i charged, with probable writes to the minister at this city, about the time he was to be appointed, truth, he divided at last the award which he himself made. I :find him a letter asking that he shall be connected with the lCc,o-ation in some thus covered all over, as it seems to me, with badges of suspicion and way, and insisting that it would be a right thing for the American minis­ fraud, and I am unwilling for one to allow him to represent the honor ter to be made the United States commissioner; that the commissioner of my country in an international commission established for the peace­ was the man that would make the money. This secretary of legation, ful settlement of claims between our citizens and the Government of mark you, was the brother-in-law of the American minister. Venezuela. I ask therefore, :Mr. Speaker, that this matter may receive A Mr. Talmage was appointed as one of the American commissioners. such consideration at the hands of this House as shall put it to rest for Under the treaty the American commissioner and the Venezuelan com­ ever. Venezuela is ready to pay what she owes. She is not ready to missioner where they did not agree were authorized to elect a third be bound by a commission the fraudulent character of which she claims man to settle the differences between them-an umpire. We :find th& has been established not only to her own satisfaetion, but also to that American commissioner selecting one single man and insjsting always of investigating committees of successive Congresses of the United States. that he and nobody else should be the umpire, and we find that this We can not afford to stand before the nations of the earth as enforc­ very man had a corrupt claim. ·while he was doing this the Venezue­ ing claims rendered in such a manner as these appear to have been. In lan minister was urging the representative of this and that court-eight behalf, therefore, of the honor of our country, and as a matter of good or ten; but on the part of the American commissioner nobody was to be faith to a weak and struggling sister republic, I ask the members of this allowed except a man by the name of Rolandus. Unle he was selected House to give proper attention to this subject and to adopt this resolu­ there could be no agreement between the commissioners. tion recommending to the President that a commission, which has not Thetreatyprovided that the Russian minister or Swiss minister should yet been had according to the treaty, may be established, to sit not in name the umpire where the two commissioners could not agree. When Ca:raeas but here in Washington, to consider the old testimony and the they reached this point the American commissioner left Caracas, ud, new and to pass upon these claims, so that citizens of the United States having :first employed a young man by the naine of Machado as his sec­ shall have no occasion to hang their heads in shame when they walk retary and agent, came to Washington, and presented the ma1;terofthe the streets of Ca:raeas, the capital of Venezuela. [Applause.] submission of the appointment of the umpire to the State Department. Mr. BLOUNT. The resolutionpendingbeforetheHouseatthistime There was no minister from Switzerland here and the duty of selecting from the Committee on Foreign Affairs I believe received the support the umpire devolved upon the Russian minister. He selected an old .of every member ofthat committee, except one, possibly, the gentleman man at Caraccas by the name of M:achado; the papem disclose that from West Virginia [Mr. WILSON. ] I am not sure as to that. That fact. The American commissioner returned and substituted as the um­ report proposes that an award made by virtue of a trea~ between the pire his private secretary and his agent. United States and Venezuela to adjudicate certain claims, which claims 1\Ir. SPARKS. Being of the same name. were adjudicated, 1>hall be set aside on the ground of fraud in the con­ 1\1r. BLOUNT. Being of the same name, and a young man, the son -duct of the commissioners and parties connected therewith. of the elder Machado. This is not a new question. In the Forty-first Congress the award 1\Ir. SPRINGER. The gentleman is incorrect· not the on. was sustained; the evidence which has been developed since was then Mr. BLOUNT. The gentleman from illinois El'l1r. SPRINGER], who unknown to the ~untry. In the Forty-second Congress it was re-ex­ is quite familiar 'Yith the subject, states that I am incorrect in saying a-mined and di&'tpproved. In the Forty-fourth Congress it was exam­ that the two were father and son; but they were different persons, and ined very fully and a great deal of testimony taken-to be found in the that answers my purpose. volume I have in my hand-under the especial and efficient conduct of The Russian minister was afterward called on at the State Depart­ the gentleman from illinois LMr. SPRINGER]. The subject was again ment, at the instance of the American commissioner, to substitute the examined and reported on by the Forty-fifth Congr and was again name of the younger Machado as umpire, on the allegation that the old reported on by the Forty-sixth Congre . In all cases s.we one there­ man was inefficient. The commission was thus made up. port sustained the idea that the commission were guilty of frauds in After the commission was organized there was a meeting· and it the making up of the award, of a character so outrageous as to affect adopted rules of procedure. One of the rules was that the claims should the honor of this Government and to require it to yield to the request be taken up in the-order in which they came from the office of the on the part of Venezuela that the award should be et aside and a new American minister at Caracas i he was to list the claims. Bear in mind commission created and a fair examination had under it. that Murray was the secretary of legation and he had the listing of These reports have not always been acted on by the House. Gentle­ these claims. men can well understand how reports from >arious committees come in Murray represented a number of claims at the instance of a party he 1883. CONGRESSIONAL .RECORD- HOUSE: = 1297 knew personally in New York, who had no k-nowledge of the language brought about in the way · s~ggested, it is"entitled to any oftheres~ . .and of the people of that country. It was agreed that Murray and the which would belong to an awfird arrived at by proper method . · New York party should have one-half, or 50 per cent. oftheamountof I have therefore felt it my du,t:t.to unite with the gentleman from the claims collected. Murray and this New York man were in part­ Massachusetts [Mr. RICE] in asking, in view of these fact , that the sub­ nership. 1\Iurray was to list the claims and he and the New York man ject shall here-examined-re-examined by a _commission free from~­ were to dividetheamountthey received-50 per cent. of the claims col­ picion, free from the allegation of fraud and fraudulent action, which lected. . appear all through the pages cif this testimony. This examination: It turned out that during the time arrangements were being made in would wrong no one. Every one of these claims may be and should be New York to gather up these claims, Whiton, the New York man, re­ re-examined. The Government of Venezuela, is asking for a re-exam­ fused various claims, among them claims which had been reported by ination, and giving in detail the merit of the various causes. Your com­ the previous American minister. He stated as a reason why he should mittee have disclosed the improper conduct of the e agents. Can we be employed to collect the claims that be had peculiar advantages. The hesit.'l.te? result shows that he had an understanding "\vith l\1nrray that 1\Iurray No, man can read the testimony in this case without being astounded should list the claims under the rule adopted by the commission. tha~ such conduct Should have been perpetrated. Sir, I have found in. TheTe were over 700,000 of claims allowed which had never been my;little experience that in nearly all these cases where parties are clam­ t hought of or heard of before by the American minister at Venezuela. oring for the payment of claims against these South American govern­ Nearly every dollar of the claims represented by Murray and by Whiton, ments, these claims, when you come to analyze them, are found to be ~f New York were-allowed, and in almost every instance where parties ·f:raudulent, and.the partiesaresimplyattemptingto impo eon the State had refused to ~uree to the terms of Whiton the clai.J:lls were disallowed. ))epartment or on Congress. I have simply said this much at the pre&' Mr. SPRINGER. In every instance. ent time with the view of giving an outline only to this side of the House l\1r. BLOUNT. The gentleman from Illinois [Mr. SPRINGER] informs .of the character of this resolution, and the pnrpo e it has in view. As: me that they were disallowed in every instance. The treaty required some issue may be taken with the Committee on Foreign Affairs upon that the commission should be kept open for twelve months from t.be this report, I desire to reserve the residue of my time to reply to any­ .date of the organization of the commission. Before the twelve months thing which may be said in opposition to it. had expired they adjourned and brought the investigation to a close. 1\lr. WILLIAl\!S7 of Wisconsin. 1\ir. Speaker, if this bill were All these claimS Qf Whiton and Murray were in and allowed, and the brought to a vote now I am sure it would pass by a handsome majority. .claims of other parties who had refused to make a contract with them Whether we may endanger it by further discussion remains to be seen. were not entertained by the commission. I am aware, sir, that strong language is not argument, that denunci­ August 30, 1867, the commission organized and August 5, 1868, the ation is not always fact; but it seems to me that if ever a case was before .commission adjourned. That is to say, they held that the co~on Congress whioh should be characterized in unstinted terms that case is was organized August 30, 1867, although the umpirewasnotappointed this one. Sir, if it were to be supposed that this Government and its until April18, 1868: Under afairconstrnctionthecommissionsatonly Congress would not speedily do what ought to be done in the interests· from April18, 1868, to August 5, 1868. of justice, then I have no hesitation in saying that this pause of fifteen The commission having concluded their labors, the American com­ years over such a mass of damning facts as those contained in this report, . ' ~ missioner and Murray hastened home; Under the regulations of the which have been so analytically and exhaustively detailed by the chair- · ·'' commission they had made a divisionoftheseclaims. Whilethetreaty man of the sub-committee having the subject in charge, the gentleman · . ': required that the certificates should be made out to the claimants for from Massachusetts [Mr. RICE]; the GoV"ernment and the Congress it- ·· ;" the amount of their claims, the commissioner made a regulation con­ self would become almost particeps criminis in one of the foulest 'wrongs · · · 1 trary to that and divided them up into small sums. in the history of this country.

It appears inevidence that the commissioner had a power of attorney I venture to say that if proce~dings like these are not to be corrected7 to collect these clainis and charged a commission for their collection. and that speedily and effectually, this Go,ernment might as well start They were divided .into small sums, it is supposed for the purpose of its corsairs on the sea, and organize its bandits on the land; I measure .convenience in making the division between the commissioner, the my words when I say that in the corrnptest days of Rome's procon: attorneys, and the claimants. sulates no fouler thing was done than .this, yet :fifteen years have These parties came back to America, as I have stated, the commis­ brought no correction as yet. sioner with large sums of these certificates, Murray with large sums of It is said that fraud vitiates everything; that the taint of fraud sets these certificates, and Whiton, of New York, with his share. aside judgments and solemn records. "\Vhy, sir, this case is not only The Venezuelan Government protested against the payment of the tainted, it is saturated with fraud. From its inception to the end there claims, giving various reasons which appear in the report. I will not i3 no clean ground anywJ;l.ere to place your foot upon. It is muck and take time to read them, they are voluminous, and the gentleman from mire, all; it is scoundrelism everywhere; it reeks with corruption and 1\Iassaehusetts [Mr. RICE] has pretty thoroughly disca."Sed that ques­ dishonesty. And all perpetrated by the accredited representatives of tion already. These persons came back to America laden with these this Government, which prates so much of justice to the citizen and fair certificates, and a protest was made at the State Department by the dealing with weak and friendly nations. I hope that in the action of Venezuelan minister against the payment. this House to-day we shall take one step at least to discountenance These parties then appeared at the State Department as lobbyists for what seems to be becoming too prevalent, and that is a disregard of the purpose of enforcing these very claims. Now, with such surround­ honor and justice between nations, especially if they be not backed by ings as these, is it true that this award should stand? The Committee shotted guns with which to enforce just demands. on Foreign Affairs, not only of previou Congresses but in t.his Congress, The letter of the Secretary of State embodies in a compact form the have heard the counsel of these claimants. . They do not explain these salient points in>olV"ed in this case. He says in his letter to the Presi­ improprieties cinthe_part of the commissioner, on the part of the Aineri­ dent: .can minister, on the part of the secretary of legation, but they have been It will be observed that tbeobjectionsrestupon theallegatiori that therewasa before our committee with counsel arguing that they have vested rights; corrupt bargain between the commissioner on the part of the United States, the umpire1 and the agent of the claimants. · tha.t the subject had been submitted by virtue of a treaty to a commis­ This charge has been often made, and often passed upon by committees of the sion, the award had been made and they had rights that were vested, House of Representatives. · and it was a usurpation on the part of Congress to attempt to interfere In 1876 the majority of the C<>mmittee on Foreign Affairs reported that an in­ with those rights. . ve tigation "in the opinion of your committee has demonstrated the truth nnd reasonableness of the allegations of Venezuela." One of the minority of the com~ This testimony discloses all along through it suggestions on the part mittee, in a separate report, said that he concurred in the conclusion reached by of every person connected with these claims of a conspiracy to defraud the committee in regard to the fraudulent character of the claims decided by the umpire, and in the disapproval of the conduct of the United Statescommis.<>ioner. . the Venezuelan Government. I do not think that any gentleman who Two other members of the minority declined to express an opinion upon the will examine this matter can escape the feeling that there was gross "findings, deductions, nnd proposil.ions contained in the.report." · fraud committed. Committee after committee of Congress after Con­ If we had any represenw.tives in Venezuela they were the United gress has uniformly so found. Yet these parties are here to-day using States minister and the United States commissioner; yet it was demon-:­ .all the influences they can outside in the various branches of the Gov­ ernment, making arguments on the ground of vested rights. strated in 1876 that they were guilty of a corrupt bargain with the um­ pire, the final judge. Still Venezuela knocks at the door of the Ameri­ Sir, the people of this country have some rights. The Go>ernment can Congress and is turned away unheard. .of the United States has a. position to maintain among the nations of The Secretary says further : the earth; her dignity and her honor to be upheld. It is right and proper that the Government shall use its good offices In 187 the same committee, in another Congress, r eported to the House that there was "evidence tending to show that there was incompetency on the part in all honorable ways to bring about a settlement, and a just ettle­ of the commission, that some of the claims allowed wereque81.ionable in char­ ment, of the claims of its citizens against foreign governments; that is acter, and that the proceedings were tainted with fraud and corruption." The customary. But it is likewise the right and the duty of the Govern­ minority reported that in their opinion "the charges of fraud have not been sustained." In 1881 the same

XIV--8~ 298 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD- HOUSE. JANUARY 17,

After so many and so decided authoritative expres ions of opinion· from rep­ What then? Why, 1,253,000 this pure and just commission of ounr ·-..e8entatives of one part of the le~islative b~nch of the Government, it seems .impossible for the Executive, in 1ts relations with a foreign ~ower, to say that awarded. Then what? Why, Murray, the brother-in-law ofthe Amer­ there is nothing in these transadions which ought to be inquued into. On the ican minister, brought away of that amount certificates representin~ .contrary, the honor of the country requires that everything of which Venezuela $851,000. Whiton, the agent of the American commission (Talmage) ;may rightfully complain should be im'e tigated. in New York that declined Woodruff' propo ition-and I happen to­ I say to the House t.hat it has been investigated most thoroughly :md know this gentleman Woodruff, who i an old town man of mine-and ~ustively by this sub-committee, and they bring you here to-day beca.use he as an hone t man would not submit to thi robbery and pay Ute result of then· labors. one-half of the amount involved in hi claim to get it allowed, it was On the other hanu, duty to our own citizens who e rights of property are ques­ rejected by this American m.ix.ecl tribunal; and hi c·laim wa pigeon­ -tioned demands that the inquiry should be limited to the points which Vene­ holed ' without prejudice. ' This same man Whiton who would take :znela has a ju t right to assall. the claim for 50 per cent. brought away certificates amounting to Ags.~n s t the awards to which no exception has been taken, seventeen in num­ ber, Venezuela can notl at this late day, rightfully interpose a complaint. '.rhey 352,000; and the total amount that these parti~ got control of wa· should stand as valid. and the holders of certificates which represent them will '1, 233 000, leaving to all other claimants the mod~ t. urn of 50,000. be paid from time to time their proportionate sums of amounts paid or that may be paid by Venezuela, except so far as courts of competent authority in the Now we come to the American Congr , to the House of Representa­ United State. , having proper jurisdiction between the parties, may adjudicnte thes, and a k you to-day, "Shall such villainy as this succeed or hall otherwise upon their rights, or unless Congress shall direct to the contrary. it be branded with the damnable infamy which any man en£roged in it Now comes the gravamen of this whole matter: hould bear 'vith him to hi grave? ' It i. not n. qu tion of dollars and cents with individuals. If this Government is to be, preserved in An examination of the charges formulated by Venezuela against the remain­ ing seven award bow that they are objected to for various reasons; , for in­ its purity and strength, if it is to carry among the nations of the earth stance, that the party ugreed that his clainl was not to be the subject of an inter­ a banner of honor, which its power will enable it to do, then we should national reclamation; that the contracts were not made by the lawful government ee to it that uch transaction , this do not longer stain our escutcheon. I' Venezuela; that there wa no just foundation for the claim; that the claim -.rere gro ly exaggerated; that the claimant had not exhausted all his remedies But, Ur. Speaker, go further; these gentlemen returned together. in the local court , &c. A all such defenses were open to Venezuela in thecom­ The gentleman from Ma....~usett.s [Mr. RICE] has abundantly ex­ ~ion, the time for advancing them has now past. But the allegation that the plained that afterthecommission was organized, with an interested um­ e of American honor, when he reached Venezuela? H e to commencetheproceedingsde nm.'o. What Venezuela admits we can .a.~ed that Mr. T. 0. G. Holandus, the con uloftheNetherlands, hould fel y tand by; but a court or tribunal bribed in its inception, corrupt be accep~ a umpire. Why be ? Venezuela objected, saying" .No; in it e>ery action, impure in all of its movements and findings, should takeoneofthe r pr ntativ~ ofEngland." Talmag said " no." ' Take not be relied upon by any nation for any public action whatever. We the repre ntative of France. ' Talmage ~ aid no.'' '' Take the rep­ say, then, thatjusticetoourselvesandournationalhonor,tohonestclaim­ resentati>e of Gennan or Russia m· any other honorable government.'' ants and to Venezuela, demands that in this Congress the whole pro­ "No." ' Take any one of ele>en prominent citizens of character and ceeding be set asideandanewcommission organized. and what the honest responsibility in Caraca . ' " No. ' Who then? " ' T. 0. G. Rolan­ claimants are entitled to should be speedily collected and paid O>erand dus." And that wa the ·pirit of equ.i.ty and justice which the United all fi-audulent claims be rejected and thrown aside. States d.isplayed in th inception of th e honorable proceedings. I riow yield to the gentleman from New York [Mr. Cox]. Why T. 0. G. Rolandus, and nobody el e? It turns out that Ro­ 1\Ir. MILLS. Before the gentleman takes his seat I would like to landus held a claim of 4 3,000 which he had transferred to Murray, ask him a question. There seems no appropriation made in this bill to the brother-in-law of the American minister. That.js, the reason, and bear the expense of that commission. I would like to ask how it is to that is the way the United State was represented in Venezuela. be provided for? When Rolandus wa not accepted., when Blanco resigned, when Conde Mr. WILLI.Al\-IS, of Wisconsin. I will refer the gentleman to my resigned, 'vhen a third commissioner had to be appointed on the part friend from Mas&aehusetts who has charge of the measure. of Venezuela, then it was finally agreed that the representative of Rus­ Mr. RICE, of Massachusetts. I think that there was no provision sia, · Baron de toeckl, hould name him, and he named Se:iior Machado. made in the original resolution. But the treaty provides that a com­ And the gentleman b·om ~1assa...50,000. The original claim of $50,000 reached an allowance of $250,000, and yet nch things in the American archives and records of DELEGATE FROM UTAH. Congress ha>e lumbered without final action for sixteen years. Mr. PETTIBONE. Ur. Speaker, I rise to make a privileged motion. _ The commission rssa.tfromAprill , 1 6 , toAngust5 and awarded­ I am authorized by the Committee on Elections to report to the House, what? Three hundred thousand dollars, that Minister Culver had re­ in the· matter of the application of Mr. John T. Caine to bQadmitted to ported was the m..'lXimum amount of the claims? No. Four hundred a , eat for the unexpired term of the presentCongressaa aDelegatefrom .and eight thou and dollars, as Venezuela was willing to admit? No. the Territory of Utah, that the committee, having h.'lod the same under 1883. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD- HOUSE. 1299 consideration, have unanimously adopted the resolution with which their is the mode so much commended by gentlemen in these latter millenial report concludes, and which resolution I ask the Clerk to read. days. The SPEAKER. The 1·esolution will be read. Well, sir, we made a treaty and constituteu a commission by thetrea.ty The Clerk read a.s follow:s: of April 26, 1866. That treaty is in the majority report. It is in the Resol,,O, That John T. Caine was duly elected as a Delegate to Congr from usual form of such treaties. Under it the commission was organized the Territory of Utah for the unexpired term of the Forty-seventh Congre s, and in August, 1 7. The.claims leaped np from $360,000 to $4,823,273.31. i entitled to the seat as such Delegate. Under thisorganization therewasallowed 1,253,310.30. This growth The SPEAKER. The question is upon agreeing to the resolution. of claim was marvelou , but not more so, as the sequel how , than Tl1e resolution was agret;ld to. their allowance by the commission and its umpire. ?tlr. PETTIBONE. If there is no objection I now ask consent that Ifitbe aid, ir, thatthere should be an end of controversy when the Mr. Caine be sworn in. award are given and when the umpire coincides, it is well to answer There was no objection. . that bt limine. As will be seen by Exhibit C, in this report, it is pro­ Mr. CAIRE, then appearing before· the bar of the House, waQ dul vided: qualified, taking the oath prescribed by section 1756 of the Re · The decil:!ions of this commi ion and those (in case there ma.y he any) of t.he Statutes. - umpire hall be final and conclusive a.s to all pending cla.il08 at the date of their VEYEZUELA.J.~ 1\IIXED 00~11\II SION'. installation. Mr. COX, of New York. }Ir. Speaker,Iwouldnotundertake t y Then it is also pronded that certificates shall be issued to these dif­ anything on this bill but for the fact that my relations with the For­ ferent sncc ful parties. These certificates are signed in pursuance of eign Affairs Committee in other Congresses have brought me somewhat the treaty, which is a part of the law of nations governing our action. in oonnection with this case. I alway felt, sir, as if there wru some Then the first question which arises, and to which I call the special at­ cloud over our country by xea on of the perfidy, the C01TUption, the tention of members, is not so much what the merits or demerits of these conspiracy and fraud growing out of this Venezuelan imbroglio. We cases m..?n a~other to his inj':""Y· But it ca~ hardly _be _said to incluc;Ie ~he_la~~ cla that it becomes the American Congr to vindir.ate the honor of the of rmplied or <;<>nstructtve ~muds, ~htch are wtthm the remedialJupsdJCtiOn of country when the sub]. ect. is so palpably brouaht before it a on this a court of eqmty. Fraud, mdeed. m the sense of a court of eqmty properly . . , o . ~ include all acts, omissions, and concealments which involve a breach of legal occas1on. We are not here representing the peculiar powers of Congr or equitable duty, ~rust, or confidence, justly .rep<;>sed, and are injurious to under the Constitution to make law for ourselves. There is n,o ques­ another, or by _whteh an u_ndue. and uncon~mentwus. advantage is taken of tion here as to the dindina line of sovereignty between States and the another. And courts of eqmty will not only mterfere m cases of fraud to set . . o . . . . aside acts done, but they will also, if acts have by fraud been prevented from Umon. Weare acting here to-daymah1gher capacity. Weareactmg being done by the parties, interfere, and treat theca e exactly a if the a{lts had in a law-giting capacity in the highest sense of national justice and been ~one...... equity. It is the ense which Hooker dechtred, whose definition of law If 1t be sa1d there 1S no fraud m this case, I ask, where, rr, will you I always loved to repeat· find one equal to it in the annals of thi ·or any other country? Of law there can be not~ng else acknowledged than that her seat i in the I am at a lo how to designate or to characterize these proceedings. bosom of God, her voice the harmony of the world; all things in Heaven and Fraud in the bud; fraud in the blo om; fraud in the fruit. Fraud at earth do her homage; the very least as feeling her care and the greate t as not the inception, in the pursuit, and at the termination. Fraud all through exempted from her power. it· fraud through and through these transactions. Fraud on the part Under that high function as law-givers between nations, for the con­ of the commissioner. Fraud in the very appointment of the commis- science of mankind and to give empha is to our own future relations sioner. Fraud on the part of Murray, the brother-in-law, who man- with other government"!, I hope that the American Congress, nemine aged the case. Fraud, as is alleged here, on the part of the minister. contradicente, may pass this joint resolution and vindicate the fair fame Fraud not on Venezuela.only, but fraud ou the United States Govern- of .our Republic. [Appla11Se, and cries of "Vote!" "Vote!"] ment; for its honest citizens, its Treasury, and its honor were defrauded. The SPEAKER p1·o tempore (Mr. CHACE). The Chair recognizes the Fraud with Stillwell and Murray; between Talmage and Murray; gentleman from Illinois [1\fr. SPRINGER] as entitled to the -floor. fraud with Stillwell, Talmage, Murray, and the umpire Machado; fraud Mr. SPRINGER. If the Honse will pardon me, I will be very brief with. Stillwell,. Tal.Ip.age, Murray, and Whiton; fraud in the payment in the statement I desire to make in this matter. [Renewed cries of ofthemoney, one-haU' tobegiventothe e menwhothemselveswere "Vote!" "Vote!" ''Goon!" "Goon!"] I will beverybrief; gen­ frauds. The fraud iS shown in the certificates, issued in denominations tlemen need not be impatient. of one hundred and one thousand dollars o as to make the fraud more 1\Ir. HAZELTON. Take your hour; we want to hear you. desirable and convenient of execution. The very fact of making the Mr. SPRINGER. This is a matter of great importance and I thlnk certificates payable to bearer is a badge of fraud. The fact that they it should be thoroughly understood by the House. I will ask your in­ were delivered to. the lawyer and that one of the commis.~ioners acted as dulgence for a moment by way of recapitulating the facts which have lawyer and receivedhundredsofthousandsofdollarsofthesecertificates led to the introduction of this joint resolution. . shows fraud. Frond on the part of the commissioner with reference to In 1866 there were pending between the GoYernment of the United the seven rotten clri.inlS to which Venezuela calls our attention, amount- ·States and the Government of Venezuela certain clainlS of·citizens of the ing to $800,000; fraud all through and through and through,.over, un- United States against the latter government. It was agreed between der, and around. . . the two government"! that tho e claims should be referred to a mixed Do you want a spec4:Den? Consider Whiton! Who wa he? What commission, consistingofacommissionerappointedbythe UnitroStates, \vas he about? Let the report (page 10) answer: a commissioner appointed by the Government of Venezuela, and an In the winter of 1867-'68 there seems to have been a ma.n named William H. umpire appointed by one of the· resident diplomats near this Govern- Whiton engaged in the paint and lead business inFultonstreet,NewYork city. t In his testimony he swears that he never knew Stillwell, Murray, or Machado; men · ' · ' he was not an attorney at law; he wa ignorant of the Spanish language; he That commission was appointed, organized, assembled, and adjudi­ knew nobody in Venezuela, and yet he became attorney for the pro ecution of catro certain claims, and adjourned itB session on the 5th of Aug11St, three claims before the· comm.ission for the sum of $525,000, upon which the com- 186 It d' d' ted 1 · to h t f 1 253 310 30 mission allowed S3i>2.814. -· These were the Idler claim, the Ralph Randon claim, · a JU lCa: C auns t e amoun 0 , , • • and the James Barnes claim, neither of which is found in the schedule made up As soon as the commission had adjourned, or very shortly afterward, by Minister Culver. ' ' t~e Government of Venezuela, having been much surprised at the large Why Whiton was selected to represent these claims does not very distinctly amount of the awards, and especially at the charad.er of some of the appear. He thinks that a 1\Ir. Bogert first spoke to him of the Idler claim, but doe not speak very positively about it. He seems to have done nothing about claims, protested against the payment of any part of some of the awards, the matter except to have gone to Wa hington where he claims that he was in- and alleged fraud on the part of the commission. formed by some one in the State Department ..'that if there was an honest claim The response of the Secretary of State of our Government at that time again t Venezuela it was the Idler claim." He swears that he then occupi_ed some six or eight weeks to go over the accounts, &c., not to prove the clarm was that the cases had been adjucated, the claims had been allowed. against Venezuela, but to S!!e how it should be divided between the Idler heirs The State Department contended that the claims were res adjudicata. and other parties claiming an interest. He wrote a letter or two about the claim There has been no allegation on the part of the State Department that to a·l\'lr. Bermudes at Caracas. He ~ve I'almage a power of attorney to act for him authorizing him to do everything he could do regarding the presentation the claims were lawful, werej11St, or ought to be paid on that account. of the claim, receipt of its proceeds, &c. That real question has been evaded and put aside. The position of our Talma~e seems to have performed his duty as attorney most faithfully. The Go t th t th - h db d' di ted commisswn, of which he was a member, considered it first upon the list, and vernmen was a e cases a · een a J.U ca · llowarded $252,814, the certificate for which Tai!Jlage receipted for and brought On the part of the Government of Venezuela it was insisted that to the United States. For his services in these matters Whiton swears that he although the cases ha-d been adjucated they wete adjucated by a com­ was to have one-third of the Idler claim, and other testimony indicates that he mission which was illegal in its composition and fraudulent in its con­ was to have 50 per cent. of the other . Whatever is alleged or sworn to, the facts point to a gigantic con- duct, and that many of the claims were fictitious and fraudulent in them- spiracy, an enormo11S fraud, all the more monstrous because of the dig- selves. nity of the tribunal and the forum of conscience. Ifit be true that fraud The position of the Government of Venezuela in reference to these is more odious than force, as Cicero says; if it be true that courts de- claims was very completely and forcibly set forth by Dr. J. M .. Blanco, cline to define its protean shapes "lest other means of avoiding the then secretary of state for foreign affairs. In a letter to the American equity of the courts should be found out," what can be said of the minister on the 11th of June, 1875, he said: despicable audacity of this ramified conspirMy to cheat a sister republic Can it be that a just government will refuse examination of thi cardinal point ? on the pending question<> The Government of Venezuela does not believe it. and dishon or our own · ~ '11 Venezuela does not repudiate the treaty; far from it; she sustains it and defends I need not ·~rgne the matter of fraud after what has been so ably ~id its performance. Tlie treaty could not ask for either government consent that by the diligent and learned gentleman from Massach11Setts [Mr. RICE]. the supposed third, in case of disagreement. should be the representative, attor­ I need. not show further details as to how the umpire was selected to show ney, personator, and agent of one of the arbitrators. Such abuse of confidence, which evidently appears to be the work ofTalmao-e, with insult to the honor of that fraud was there; nor any further or other indicia of fraud. I need both governments plainly shows the nullity of the process and of the sentence. not say that there never was a case so reeking with fraud as this. The Such being the ituation of this disagreeable affair, the Government of Vene- · th t · t h · d "- t 1 thirt tt 1 zuela could not without diminution of its honor and without stain to the dig- sadn ess 1S a 1 as remame ~or some we ve or een years n er Y nity of the republic consent to the performance of an act spurious, unlawful, :t:emediless. and also criminal, which takes the name of judgment-, and with which both l\IL Speaker, are we to say here and now, when the President calls governments were deceived, and by which that of the United States of North · · ~ ad · d 'd tha:t th · ed th t America continues to be deceived. our attentiOn to 1t ~or our VICe an al ' ere 18 no rem y, a For reasons so powerful, and because of the inevitable duties which they im- our nation shall stand before the world besmirched with the frauds, pose, the Government. of Venezuela is not able, nor will it be able, to pay t{) the and that there is no remedy? North American legation the sum deposited and tho ethat will be deposited for The Senate proposes to refer this matter to the Court of ClainlS. What the payment of the legitimate claims of its citizens without insisting that the government shall keep them in its deposits and give a bearing to the evidently has that court to do with it? This is an international matter and be- just claim which it has "on the table," to wit, that of the former question, longs to another and not a national tribunal. whether there exists a judgment by reason of there having existed a competent Since treaties can be abro2:ated or renewed by consent of two nations, tribunal in performance of the treaty, observance of which is all that the republic ~ require. since the very law of nations contemplates an agreement between them The undersigned cannot butrepeatthatthi government believes itimpo ible as to all matters in dispute, the best thing as a remedy to be propo ed that the GovernmentofthegreatRepublicofNorth America will refuse to hear, for this crying mischief and fraud is that propo ed by my honorable ~~/di~~~i~~~~ ~~~ ~fo~~!~~~~~fo~~hich till now it goes on keeping friend from .Massachusetts (1\Ir. RICE], namely, the making of a new This would be in manife t contradiction to the universal and well-deserved treaty with a new commission, where all these cases can be re-examined, conviction of the enlightenment and justice of the native country of Washing­ and where on the, re-examination the money already paid may be ton. credited on an.y future awards. This was the appeal of the Government of Venezuela to our Govern- ! will conclude what I have to say by one further remark. That is, ment. She appeals to 11S as the native country of Washington, to do 1883. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. 1301 justice to her-to hear, to examine, to discuss these awards, the conduct claim from the jurisdiction of the commission. I refer to c~.nsc 18, of the commission, and the manner in which it -was constituted. The which is as follows: Committee on Foreign Affairs of this House has unanimously reported Eighteenth. An indispensable condition of this contraet is, and it is hereby that in the constitution of the commission there wa fraud practiced most olemnly agreed, that any· doubts, differences, difficulties, or misunder­ standings of any class or nature whatever that may arise from, or have any con­ upon both governments. In the selection of the arbitrator of this com­ nection with, or in any manner relate to this contract, directly or indirectly, mis ion the Government of the United States as well as the Govern­ shall be settled in a friendly manner in the city of Caracas or the port of La. ment of Venezuela was imposed upon. The arbitrator selected, in­ Guayra by a commission to be com posed of two arbitrators, to be chosen one by the Government of Venezuela, and who shall be one of the mini ters of the su­ stead of being a disinterested person, inst~d of being the person selected preme court of the republic, and the other to be selected by the company; and by the Russian embassador, was an . agent, an attorney, a clerk of the if the arbitrators should not agree, they shall select a. third as umpire ; and if .American commissioner-not the party agreed upon by either govern­ they should not agree upon an umpire, be ·hall be named by the minister or representative of Spain in Caracas. Should there be no representative of Spain, ment. Such being the compo ition of the commission, the awards made then he shall be appointed by the repre entative of Denlnark, Bremen, Holland, by it are utterly without any binding force upon either government. or Belgium. Not only was the commission illegally constituted, but the claims And the opinion of the two arbitrators, or the decision of the umpire, should there be one, shall be considered as a judgment i<>Sued by authority after due themselves in many cases were fraudulent and :fictitious. During the trial, and hall have no appeal whatever; and therefore this contract shall never, Forty-fourth Congress I had oeca ion to examine orne of these claims. under any pretext or reason whatever, be cau e for any international claims or I sent to the State Department a request thatall thepapersuponwhich demands. these cases were adjudicated should be sent to the Committee on For­ The arbitration pronded for in this clause of the contracts wa8 never eign .Affairs, of. which I was then a member. The Secretary of State invoked. No request appears in the papers for a. settlement of any dif­ very kindly furnished the papers in the cases designated, the aggregate ferences which might arise in pursuance of the terms of the contract. awards in which amounted to $794,000. I examined the petitions, the It does not appear that.the Government of Venezuela ever refused evidence, and all the facts before the commission, and upon which the the arbitration provided for in the clause just quoted. This clause· in claims were adjudicated. I give it as my judgment as a lawyer that the contract excluded the claim of Beales, Nobles & Garrison from all not one of those claims was meritorious or could have been decided consideration by the mixed commission. Their claim was only cogni­ favorably by any man, unless he were either a fool or a knave. zable before the arbitrators provided for, and their arbitration was to be I desire to call the attention of the House to one case-the claim of :final. There was an immigration clause also in the contract, which was .Beales, Nobles & Garrison. In that case t.he a-ward was made for to continue for a number of years. In deciding the case the learned . 250,000. The claim grew out of two alleged contracts which were commissioner held that according to the course of emigration between entered into and executed by a consul of the Government of Venezuela, the Old World and the new a certain number of emigrants would have then residing in New York city, under the auth01ity of one Senor Jose arrived in the United States, and that at least twelve hundred of such .Antonio Paez, a military dictator, whose right to be ruler of the coun­ emigrants would probably have left this country during the four years try rested upon a revolutionary claim which was never recognized by from the execution of the contract to the time the commission sat and this country or any other government-a man who, after a. brief period settled in Venezuela, according to the estimates made by the petition­ .of revolutionary existence, styling himself "the upreme cll.ief of the ers, by reason of their steallltShip line between the United States and republic," was overthrown and the rightful government re-established. Venezuela. Upon this estimate of the number of emigrants which the The contracts were annulled in two or three months after their execu­ company might have taken out in their ships for fonr years a, judg­ tion by order of the rightful government, which had been re-established ment was rendered for 30,000. No emigrants were ever carried; no in the mean time. ship. were e\er run; not a dollar was earned or expended under the Gentlemen must remember that Venezuela is a republic fash,ioned in contract; yet a judgment of 250,000 was awarded in this case. I will the main after the Government of the United States; it has a house of print as a part of my remarks the opinion ofthe .American commissioner represent..'ttives, a-senate, and a president elected by the people. Yet in this case. It is as follows: this military dictator, having an existence of only a few months and Opinion of United States commissioner on claim of Noble , Beales & Garrison not recognized by the lawful Government of Venezuela, or bytheGov­ against the Republic of Venezuela. ernmen:t of the United tates, or any other nation, assumed to bind that :\lrxED CO)DITSSIO .~ OF THE U:b"'TED STATES AND VENEZUELA, government for thirty years in contracts for running a line of steam- Caracas, June 16, 1868. hips between Venezuela and the United Sta.tes. This is a. claim for $614,700 damages, re ulting from the annulment of two sev­ eral contnwts by the Government of Venezuela, which had been executed, one These contracts remit customs duties on certain m·ticles imported, for the purpose of an ocean line of sten.mers from the city of New York and La. grant lands to colonists who may be brought into Venezuela, give ex­ Guayro., in Venezuela, and the other to open up a tide of immigration into Vene­ clusive privileges and promise large sums of money to be paid from year zuela. It appears from the papers in thi ca e that on the 1 t day of May, 1863, two .of to year. There was no ratification of the contracts by the Venezuelan the claimant , namely, 1\Ies rs. Noble and Beales, entered into a contract with ..congress whatever, and in the very nature of the case they were >oid. the Republic of Venezuela to run a line of ocean mail steamers from the city of Twenty-five years before the termination. of the contracts judgment New York to Venezuela for the term of thirty years, at a certain fixed and tipu­ lated sum per annum, as compensation for carrying the mails, &c. was rendered by this commission for the amount which the contractors I It further appears that on the-5th day of :\Iay, 1863, the said Nobles and Beales alleged they would have earned if they had put their ships on the line, entered into and executed a second contract "rith the Republic of Venezuela for w.hich they did not d0y flnd for an amount that they won.ld in their opin­ the establishment of a current of immigration to Venezuela. It further appears that shortly after the execution and delivering of these contract Nobles and ion have earned. on account of carrying emigrants into the country, Beales associated with them Cornelius K. Garrison·, one of the present claim­ upon whom they were entitled to so much l)er capita. 'Consequential ants. damages!" Such a ca e wa never heard of anywhere. The judgment It further appears that in September of the year 1863, the Pre ident of Vene­ zuela annulled these several contnwt . .of the .American commissioner upon this claim i a mot remarkable It may not be necessary, perhaps, in this opinion to give at length the different document in its tatement of law as well as of fact, and I will incor­ tipulation of agreement and covenant in these two several contracts. It will porate it in my remarks. Gentlemen -who ha\e tudied law 'will be be ·uflicient for our purpose to refer to those of the most importance, and, first, in r egard to the "ocean mail steamer contnwt." interested in the new rule for determining the measure of dam~o-es whicb The claimants bound themselves, '\'irithin a period of one hundred days; to senil this astute judge adopted for himself and by which he reached the their first steamer, tHted in every respect for the service, that· is to say, of suffi­ conclusion that the urn of 250,000 Ehould be paid to the claimants by cient capacity to carrytwenty~flve p · ngersand six hundred ton ofm.erchan­ di e, and to be supplied with a proper place for carrying the mail. (This one the Government 'of Venezuela, . hundred days was ubsequently extended for a period of eight months in addi­ During the Forty- ixth Congress I called upon the Secretary of State tion.) This was the first thing the claimant obligated themselves to do, under for all the papers on :file in the State Department in relation to the claim said contract. Did they do it? The proofs how, to wit: . That after the completion of the said contract by its signature at the city ot of Beales, Nobles &Garri on, including the contracts, the evidence upon New York on the 1st day of 1\Iay 1863, the petitioners at once perfected their which it was allowed, and the decisions of the commi Qioner and umpire. arrangements for can-ying out each and every of the terms of the said contract These papers were furnished and printed as Honse Miscellaneous Docu­ literally and faithfully; and to thnt .nd they prepared and made ready the steamer West Point, then being a duly registered American steamer of sufficient mentNo. 42, second session Forty-sixth Congress: To this document I in­ capacity to carry the number of passengers and the number of tons of merchan­ vite the attention of members. From this it will be seen that there was dise in the first article of said contract stipula~ 1 and which was also supplied not a particle of evidence before the commission to sustain the claim of with a afe and proper place for carrying the mails. The petitioners also then had under their control other steamers, which would Beales, Nobles&Garrison. Theirpetitionwa sworn to'' as true accord­ have followed in their order the West Point (under and pursuant to the terms ing to his best know ledge, information, and belief,'' before a notary public of the said contra-ct), if the same hnd ever been carried into effect by the Govern­ in the city of New York, and Nobles ap.d Beales make separate affidavits ment of Venezuela. Said steamers were then the property and under the control of the petitioners or of one of them, and were of the size and capacity required before the not..'try as to certain items of personal expenses which aggre­ by the term of said contract, und competent in every respect to make the voy­ gate less than $15,000. The affidavits were wholly ex parte, and were ages specified in the said contract, with the toppages therein named. Being so, made by the claimants themselves in the city of New York. There the proprietors of the said steam rs (the petitioners) were able faithfully to com­ ply with and fulfill the conditions specified in the provi ion of th aid contract were no proo.fS, affidavits, depositions, or evidence of any kind before numbered from 2 to 10, both inclu ive. But long before the expiration of the the commi ion other than the formal jurats to the petition, as I have time limited, the Government of Venezuela declared said contract annulled and stated. No arguments were heard by the commission in this or any of no effect. Following this decree of the President of Venezuela. came the pro­ other case, and their findings were based neither upon law nor evidence. test of the United States minister resident at Caracas, which was as follows: I assert without fear of contradiction that in the claim of Beales, His Excellency 1.\Ir. G. T. VILLEGAS, Nobles· & Garrison there was. no .legal evidence whatever before the Secretary Department Foreign Relations, &c.: The undersigned has the honor to make known to your excellency that be has commission upon which the claim could be adjudicated, and that the seen with surprise what purports to be two decrees issued by the existing au­ contracts upon which the award was made on ~heir face excluded the thorities in Venezuela: the one purporting to abrogate and annul a contract exe- 1302 co TGllESSIONAL RECORD- !IOUSE. JANUARY 17,

cutcd in Yew York on tho l>tween imon Camacho on the may ever arise under said contract, either aa to it breach or damao-es I am one part, and John Charles B ales and William H. Nobles on the other, touch­ clearly of the opinion that a rea onable, just, and equitable amount ho~ld be ing the establi hment of a line of steamers between the United ~ ·tate and Ven­ awarded claimants for the unexpired term IU! the facts e;;tablish their ability ezuela; the other purporting to annul a contract executed in New York on the re.'-< great iuju ticc, but under all tbc circum tancea of the case I do not · in making and signing said contracts, acted for nnd on b ehalf and a · the duly feel justified in indicating a larger sum. - authorized agent of the GovernmentofVcnezuela; that under and by ·drtue of Passing from the ocean mail team contr::tct to the contract executed on the . sa.id contract the said Nobles and H al s can well claim that they ha ,-e becom 5th of l\Iay, 1863, to open np a tide of emigration, the claimant-; allege in their ·seized of certain ve ted rights, of which the GoYernment of Venezuela can not petition ru1 follow , uamely: dive>ctween The undersigned ha no mean of knowing the ground or rea on for annul­ th said Jo e Antonio Paez and your petitioners, touching the ce ion hy lh ling the e contracts except what i set forth in th~ vreamble ·oftheresp ectivede­ id government to your petitioners of certain lands within the terl'itorial Ot>­ cree , t-0 wit, in the one case that the co nee ion of land to each immigrant wa. cupa tion of the Government of Venezuela for the u e of uch colonL'>t.<:i as your exorbitant, and that it i not known what action the n ext national as embly petitioners might be u.ble to debark at Carac:lS, or cl ·ewhcr within the territ-Ory , might take, in vhtue of it new organization ; in the other, that in the scanty of V e:nezuela aforesaid, to become citizen of the said Government of Venezue la. condition of the public trea ·ury it should not be submitted to o great an ex pen e "For every colonist so imported by your p etitioners your petitioners were to for och a slow enterprise. · receive a st.ipulated ce ion of land and a grant of so many tons of guano. In the absence of any other rea>0,000 in gold coin of the United States annually for the period of large om of money might have been realized from if carried out. I um of the three years from the 1st day .of May, 1863, and by the fourteenth article the sum opinion claimants have not in fact demanded or asked a much as they were of$30,000 in gold coin of the United W.tes, annually for the period of twenty­ really entitled to recover. . seven years from the 1st day ofl\Iay, 1866. As to the items of exp_en s incurred in procuring and in the execution of said The claimants being ready and willing and always with a pre. ent and futur contracts specified in Schedule A, it being shown that they were created at the ability to carry out their contract, what should theyr ceiveasdamage by reason in tance and request of the Executive of Venezuela, I aru of opinion that the -of the po itive action of the Venezuelan Go,·ernment in abrogating the contract. same should be allowed in amount $9,650. The rule of law is well ttled that where partie how an ability and a will­ As to the item on Schedule B, they appear t.o me t-0 be enormous. I am of ingne s to perform a contract and o.r.e prevented by the net of the other con­ the opinion that ,.1,500 would be a suffiaient compensation for the services o.nd . traeting p&rties, they are-considered1 a having perform_ed their part of the agre - expenses mentioned in said schedule. ment and entitled to receive the stipulated compensation therefor. The courts I have not deemed it proper to allude to the question of jurisdiction arising in of the United States have always held thus; this beingtrueund treatingthecon­ the case between the commi ioners (and upon appeal), finally decided by the truct under consideration a having been fully performed up t.o the present time, umpire as within the jurisdiction of this commiasion; therefore, after a careful or say to the 1st day of l\!ay, 1868, claimants would be entitled to receive the sum consideration of the whole case, and as before indicated, I determine and ad­ ·of $210,000. · judge claimants entitled to receive the sum of three hundred and fifty-one thou­ This contract runs through a period of time equal to almost the average life of sand one hundred and fifty "hard dollars" in adjustment of said claim. man,stillhavingtwenty-fiveyearstorun-aqual"lerofacentury. Thedetermina­ Respectfully ubmitted. ·t-ion of the question of damages by known and well-establi hed rul of law and DAVID 111. TALMAGE, equity for the term yet unexpired i more difficult. Ut\~ tate& Commiss-ioner. The claimnnts in their petition say: Fifth. They also respectfully request that they may be adjudicated and de­ CARACAS, Jun.e 15, 1868. creed t.o be entitled to a reasonable compensation for the re idue of t-he unex­ The commis ioners having failed to agree upon award in the above case and ·pired term of twenty- even years, nominated in the fourteenth stipulation of referring the same to the umpire, in addition to the above, I hereto annex for s.'l.id contract. . the information of said umpire the report of the secretary of foment.o made Sep­ The measure of damage (to u. e a legal phrase) i specified in the stipulation tember, 1863, to the mini ter of foreign relations of Venezuela, relating to the at $30,000per year, and this isprimttfac-ie the asses ment· of damages to which contracts in question, showing date al).d m!Ulner of their annulment and the con­ the Government of Venezuela ha consented again tit elf if the contract shall sequences contemplated and expected to result from such unwarrantable abro­ be abruptly broken b;r it. This cover· a period of at least a quarter of a century, gation, in the way of indemnity to the parties aggrieved who would be justly be during which the viciSl itudes of human life or of human endeavor are beyond entitled to uch indemnity, the coutra{JtS having been annulled without their ·human previsions, and it can not therefore be either safely adjudicated or decreed knowledge or consent, and from no fault or omission on their part. that the parties to the contract.(e pecially tho!'IC repre ented hy the petiti_oner ) DAVID M. 'l'ALl\IAGE, would eitbdr b in existence or able to fulfill that contract. till, the legal pre­ United States Commissioner. sumption is in favor as well of the continuity of the contracting partie as of their ·continued ability to fulfill their contract; and in this \

During this time I examined all the papers and correspondence on file at the justice require thi . To refuse a new commission and enforce thep3']'­ United States legation at Canwas and with the Government of V enezuela in re- gard to the contnwts upon which the claim wa based. · ment of. these dishone t claim would be dishonorable in our Govern- · I found two mistakes had been made in the management and pro ecution of ment and di creditable to omsel>e. . the cln.ims. 'l'he first was the filing of a claim by Dr. Beale: for _200,000, and his There is another ~oint of view stated by the honorable gentleman corr pone dishonest awards? I think no only refused to remove him, but as a matter of fact approved of his course. The Therefore I appeal to the Ron e to pa this bill by a unanimous vote. tlight of Falcon a few week after, and the a umption by Brnzual of the presi­ dential clw.ir, led to another offer on our part to secure the removal of Conde. Let us place the cal of our condemnation upon that fraudulent oom­ After several interviews it was agreed that Conde should be removed provided mission and testify to the world that the American Congres will not Bruzaal was recognized as pre ident, and the influence of the legation should countenance fhmd, even though it has taken shelter behind the sacred be used to secw·e one thousand tand of rifles and four pieces of artillery, which contra<:twa carriedoutbyallparties: Theappointmentofl\lr. Villafanea com­ obligations of a treaty. [Great applause.] - - mi ioner led us to hope ow· trouble was at an end, as I had made him a propo­ l\1r. \\'ILSO_T . 1\lr. Speaker, the eloquent gentlemen who have pre­ sition before his appointment, but 1 was disappointed, as the success of the revo­ ceded me haYe dis ·ussed the various que tions of fact connected with lution suspended everything, and Villafane refused to act any longer as com­ mis ioner unless reappointed by l\Ionagas. l\Ionagas,on the other hand, would this award. I ha>e not heard that any one of them has discussed thereat do nothing unle..."S the legation would recognize his government, which they question brought to the attention of the Rou e by the tate Depart­ were compelled to do or let the commis ion go up. The reappointment of Villa­ ment, and upon that I desire to say a few words. They discussed th fane clo ed the negotiation with the government. Iy labor wa then ..,,ith the commi ioners. facts here. Why'? Will any gentleman upon the flooroftheiiouseas Upon the arrival of Talmage at Caracas, to get him enli ted I agreed to give a constitutional or international lawyer tell you that this House has the him one-eighth of the award; ub quently I agreed to give another party one­ power to act upon this question at all? ~ o one will. Whence does it. eighth to secure the removal of Bruzual. Upon the appointment of Villafane I promised him 525,000 if he would give us an award of $200,000, and finally I derive its power? It cleri>es it from the Federal Coru.titution, and I agreed to give the umpire $25,000 for a 250,000 award, these sums amounting to hall addTess· my elf to the judgment of the members of this House. $112,000. I paid the several partie , as I agreed, before I left Caracas, leaving U}lOn a great que tion, not of fad, but of the power under the Consti­ $137,500. The original contract, as you will remember, wa one-eighth and one­ eighth. This was afterward increased to one-half· in the eYent of a '00,000 tution conferred upon Congre upon this subject. award. I herewith pay over 100,000, which you can distribute among the p(l,rties I undertake to say, JI.Ir. 'peaker that in pursuance of the law and in interest. The $37,500 I r etain a my fee. the Constitution of this country the House has no power to pa this: Yours, W. P. 1\llJRRAY. resolution; and if I £.'til to show that, then I hall have failed in the ad­ Now, this letter, written byMr. Murray, theattorneyoftheseclaim­ >ocacy of the right. I undertake to say, and will Tepeat, that neither ants, states the fact as to his relation to this comm.i.E ion. I ha>e een by text nor by precedent, beginning with Washington and coming down the original of that latter. I am acquainted with Mr. l\IUIT8.y's hand­ to the present time, is there any power in the llouse to pa this reso­ writing, and it is in his handwriting. That letter was brought out in lution. evidence before a committee of this House in the Forty-fifth Conw:ess, A few year ago, in 1 78, this que tion came before Congre for a... and he has never yet asked to come before a committee of this Honse third consideration. In 1873 an act had been passed a:ffirming these to deny it. And in addition to that, the brother of one of these claim­ awards, making them final and binding. Tha·t act was unconstitutional, ants testified before the &'\me committee that one of this firm told him and Congress in 1 78 passe(l an act, after full and deliberate considern­ that Mr. Murray had truthfully stated in this letter the manner in tion, which I desire the Clerk of the House to xead, and I invite gentle­ which this claim was divided. men to giYe careful attention to that reading. Here is a claim made against the Go>ernment of Venezuela to an The Clerk read as follows: Be i~ enacted, &c. That the act entitled "An act t{) enforce the tipulation ol amount of$250,000. In order t{)securethataward the American com­ the convention of Venezuela of April 25, 1866 and the payment of adjudicated missionerreceived 37,500in theverycertificatehehadhimselfawarded. clnims," approved February 25, 18i3, be and the ame is hereby, repealed: Pro­ TheVenezuelancommissionerreceived 25,000oftheawardhehad-made ouided howeve-r, That nothing herein, or 1n1 the act hereby repealed, shall be con­ and the umpire received 25,000. Then the attorney was to be paid strued as an expre ion of any opinion on the part of Congress in respect to t ...alidity of any awards made under said convention, or as to the propriety ol a. $37,500, and the remaining $100,000 was paid to the claimants. This negotiation by the Executive of a new conYcntion in respect t{) the same. . is a specimen of the claims adjudicated by this commission. As the Approved, June 20, 18i . gentleman from New York [Mr. Cox] has stated, the commission was 1t1r. WILSON. In 1878 Congress repealed ihe act of 1873 because fraudulent in its inception, fraudulent in it conduct, and fraudulent the latter act wa unauthorized. all the way through. The umpire was a fraud. The commissioners lli. RICE. of Ua achusetts. Will the gentleman permit me t{) ask and umpire were brib~, and shared in their own awards. The claims him a question? allowed were fictitioti.S, fraudulent, and without merit. Could any­ 1t1r. ·wiLSON. Cer~'l.inly. thing be more abhorrent to an enlightened judgment than the enforce­ 1t:lr. RICE, of Massachusetts. Does not the gentleman think that in ment of the awards of uch a tribunal? this case a different question is presented from that to which he refers,. What is the remedy? Enforce the payment of these claims? Should from the fact that Congress merely in response t{) the request of the we insist on the payment by 'Venezuela of such claims as these? I say President 1·ecommends to the treaty-making power certain action; :no no. The Government of Venezuela has asked that a new commission final action but mm·ely a 1·ecommendation? be appointed which can adjudicate the claims of American citizens against 1t!r. WILSON. I am obliged to the gentleman for the question, and that government. She agrees to respond promptly to the awards of an I will turn it to his disadvantage. · honest commission, to the adjudication of hone t claim against that Ur. RICE, of Massaehnsetts. Very well. _ government. Ur. WIL 0~ Congress, lli. Speaker, in 1878 declined to express­ I ask whether the binding faith of a treaty is such we can not go be­ an opinion upon the merits or demerits of the matter, for the reason. hind it and determine whether that treMy was carried out in good faith that it rested entirely with the Executive. Of the three co-ordinate or not? I maintain it is a part of the law of nations that treaties are branches of the Government that power belonged to one; that is tb binding only to the extent they are carried out in good faith. I call the treaty-making power, to the Executive. In the language of Story on attention of gentlemen t{) the law on this subject a laid down by V attel the Constitution- in the La~ of Nations, page 277: The President is the immediate author and fini her of all treatie , and all the The faith of treaties should be religiously observed. If, however, the ·arbitra­ advantages which can be derived from talents, information, integrity, and de>­ tors, by pronouncing sentence evidently unjust and unreasonable, should for­ liberate investigation on the one hand, and from secrecy and dispatch on feit the charact-er with which they were invested, their judgment should deserve other, are thus combined in the system. But no treaty so formed becomes bind­ no attention. ing upon the country unle · it receives the deliberate assent of two-third oHhe. That is the recognized law of nations on this subject. enate. Now in this case are not these awards evidently unju t? Is not this Now, to answer my friend from 1tlassachu etts, in 1878 Congress said adjudication evidently unreasonable? Would it not be unreasonable to the President., yon have full and adequate powers upon the subject. on the part of our Government to insist on the payment of claims ad­ You are the beginning, the author, and the finisher of treaties. judicated in the way these have been? Can a great Government like Not long ago President Arthur sent to the Hou e a letter from which ours, now numbering oyer 50,000,000 of people, enforce the payment of I propose to read only a brief extract. I want to show what he thought fraudulent and dishonest claims against a sister republic too weak to of the question, to show alsothatmydistinguishedfriend who has just resist, too feeble to do anything save to make solemn protest? I main­ addressed the House entirely missed the mark. The President says~ tain, 1.1r. Speaker, that we owe it to the honor of this Government to I earnestly invite the attention of Congress to this communication and the ao- this bill. We owe it to ourselves, we owe it to the people of a sister companying inclosures. _ pass In cnse neither House takes action upon it during the present Congress I~ republic, to repudiate this fraudulent commission and authorize our feel it my duty to direct that this .Prolonged discussion be definitely terminated · ~-ffivernment ~ secure the organiza~ion of a new tribunal before -vrmch by recognizing the absolute valid1ty of all of the awards. - all honest claims of our citizens may be heard and deter~ed. S?mple The President asked Congress to consider the letter of the Secretroy ·1304 CO;NGRESSIONA~ R~CORJ)-HOUSE. JANUARY 17, ~'

of State. Now what is that letter? Is it inaccordancewith the terms Mr. WILSON. I am reading from the letter of Mr. Frelinghuysen~ . -or· the bill proposed by this committee? Not a word of it. Had it Secretary of State. . ·any relation to the bill proposed bythiscommittee, and now before the Mr. SPRINGER. 1\Ir. Frelinghuysen is mistaken. House?· Not a word of it. What does the Secretary of State recom­ 1\fr. RICE, of Massachusetts. Will thegentlemanfrom \\.,.est Virginia. mend? The Secretary recommends the passage of an act which shall allow me-- . . direct the Court of Claims, upon the documentary evidence now in the 1\ir. WILSON. In one mmute. After you receive this communica­ Department of tate or printed in Congressional decuments, and upon tion, the committee repudiate the recommendations of both th.e President such other proof as may be submitted under the rules made or to be and theSecretaryofStateand bring ina bill here involvingtheintegrity made by the coUrt, to hear and determine, with or without coun8el, as of the whole twenty-four claims. l\Iore than that, the Executive only the court may decide, whether any and if so whichofthe seven awards asks, as a court might direct, that where fraud is suspected an inquiry objected to by Venezuela was obtained by fraud or corruption. of fact may be directed so as to surcharge the claim. The committee Now, there is a plain and simple recommendation. The Secretary of go a bow-shot further, and say "create a new commission and commence tate says it appears from the documents in the Department that some the trial of the causes de novo.'' of these claims are tainted with fraud. Seventeen ofiihem are unques­ I undertake to say that no bwyer who enjoys a respectable tanding tioned. even are suppo ed to be tainted by fraud. Now, the Secre­ at the bar would say that the resolution proposed is a compliance with tary of State asks that you refer that question to the Court of Cillims the recommendation of the Executive. ·No tyro at the bar would risk -to determine whether or not fraud did exist; and I ask the attention of his reputation by asserting that an order to surcharge a judgment or my distinguished friend from Massachusetts to this matter and am per­ decree would be complied with by setting a ide the order or decree. fectly willing that he shall be permi,tted to have time to reply and say 1\fr. SPRINGER. Do I understand the gentleman as sayingthatn() why the coinmittee did not adopt the recommendation of the Secretary decree of a court has ~ver been opened for fraud? of State. 1\Ir. WILSON. No, sir; I did not say that~ Mr. RICE, of 1\Iassa.chusetts. Do you desire me to reply now? Mr. SPRINGER. What did you say? Mr. WILSO... . I '\ovill yield, sir, for a reasonable time. 1\Ir. WILSON. ~ did not propose to reply to the argument of fuct. Mr. RICE, of :Massachusetts. Tlie treaty '\\ith Venezuela provides The gentleman from Illinois· has talked about the Yenezuela commis­ for a miXed conun:ission to which these claims shall be submitted. The sioner, and Venezuela being plundered by him. Now, does he know the ronunittee has found that the commission which claimed to sit upon fact is proven that Venezuela has ~ept that commissioner whom she these awards was tainted by fraud. Its proceedings are. therefore in­ thus charged ·with fraud in an official position for a series of years; that Valid. There has been, then, no valid commission which has as yet acted after charging him with fraud she elevated him to a high position? under the treaty. Venezuela is entitled to a commission; slie never yet ~ir. SPRINGER. I do not know anything of the kind. agreed to accept as a tribunal to pass upon these claims the Court of 1\Ir. WILSON. The gentleman stated awhile ago he knew the Mur­ Claims, but she has agreed to the commission,' and that only. ray letter to be in Murtay's handwriting. Does the gentleman know Mr. WIL ON. That is the reason, then, why the gentleman from it was proven by a bank officer who knows Murray's handwriting well Massachusetts repudiates the recommendation of the Secretary of State. that the letter was not in Murray's handwriting? Mr. RICE, of 1\iassachusetts. Oh, we considered the question and Mr. SPRINGER. I am ready to be sworn and totestifytha.t I know reported on it according to the judgment of the committee. that letter to be in Murray's handwriting. If the gentleman from Mr. WIL ON. Theyrepudiatetherecommendatlonofthe Secretary West Virginia will look at the papers he will see it him elf; and I am of State. They deny to him what he asked, which is merely the aid surprised that he will come here to defend a man for writing such a. of the Court of Claims to determine whether or not there is fraud in letter when that man has never attempted to defend it himself. seven of these claim . Mr. WILSON. lam not defending him. I am speaking here ofthe · Mr. RICE, of·Massachusetts. What has the Court of Claims to do duty this Congress owes to the Secretary of State and to the executive r with a question between citizen of the United tates and Venezuela? head of the Government. · Mr. WILSON. I will answer that question. I am obliged to the· Mr. RICE, of Massa.chu etts. l\Iy friend w~ kind enough to say I gentleman for a king it. The Federal Constitution has said that the might have a moment. President hall have power to make treaties. Theentirepoweris,vith 1\fr. WILSON. Certainly. the President, ubject only to the ratification by two-thirds of the en­ 1\ir. RICE, of Massachusetts. I understood him to say that Vene- ate. · As a co-ordinate bmnch of the Go...-ernment this House has no zuela had never protested against seventeen of these awards. power over that ubject. The President, who ha the power, has made Mr. WILSON. I did not say that. this request to Congress through the Secretary of State. 1\Ir. RICE, of Massachusetts. What did you say? - All the President a ks is tO let the Court of Claims report to him the ?!ir. WILSON. I will tell you what I said. I refer gentlemen to. fuct whether there 'was fraud in a part of th e claims. As my dis­ the letter of Secreta.ry Frelinghuysen, and to a sentence in that letter­ tinguished friend from Ohio [Mr. GEDDES] oftentimes when presiding to be found on page 33 of this report. He says: on the bench has directed a jury to ascertain some question of fact in Again t the awards to which no exception has been taken, seventeen in num­ a chancery cause pending before him, your President, your Executive ber, Venezuela can not at this late day rightfully interpose a. complaint. head, says, "'I am satisfied seventeen of these claims are all right. The I will say this, that in the earlier stages of t4e inquiry, for the first others I am not certain about.'' I want to read the recommendation of two or three years, Venezuela never raised her %ice against any more the Secretary of State, because gentlemen have gone wild on this ques­ than seve.n of these claims; it was an afterthought. tion and absolutely repudiate and ignore what the Secretary and the Mr. RICE, of 1\iassachusetts. Now will my earnest and enthusiastic President have requested. It is as follows: friend allow me to rea.d from a memorandum of a conversation between ' Against the awards to whiCh no e.."'Cception has been taken, even teen in num­ Senor Castro and 1\ir. eward, February 8, 1 69, within less than one ber. Venezuela can not at this late day rightfully interpose a complaint. They should stand as valid, and the holders of certificate which represent them will year after this commission had dissolved. be paid from time to time their proportionate sums of amount paid or that may Mr. WILSON. Iamfumiliarwith that paper. I am speaking of the be paid by Venezuela. letter of the Secretary of State. I am talking about the issue now Mr. SPRINGER. Who says that? . before this House. Mr. WILSON. TheStateDepartmentha heen examining this mat­ Mr. RICE, of 1\iassachu ett. This memorandum was transmitted ter for more thantenyears. The ecretarytellsyouthatout oftwenty­ to Congress. · .funr of these claims there are seventeen which Venezuela can not and ?!-ir. WILSON. Icannotconsenttoha...-eall thi takenoutofmytime. shall not question. Venezuela has heretofore given her assent that .Mr. RICE, of :Massachusetts. If the gentleman will not allow me­ seventeen of them are right. to do so, the Hohse will infer what I would read. Mr. RICE, of l\Iassachu etts. Will the gentleman permit me? Mr. WILSON. Go on. Mr. WILHON. I ask the gentleman to wait one moment. But Mr. RICE, of 1\iassaehusetts. This is it : "Mr. Castro proceeded then the Secretary says, or the President through the Secretary say : immediately to say that he regretted that it was his duty "to present "I ask Congress to aid me to olve the question of fact; to aid me in the views of his government concerning the conduct of the late claims 'this way; let tho e cases be taken to the Court of Claims, and let that convention, which had committed irregularities so gross that they an­ court say whether there is fraud as alleged." nulled their awards." There is no exception there. Mr. SPRINGER. Will the gentleman allow me to say that from the And I wish further to ask my friend what it is that the Pr ident statement which I read of Grosman Blanco in thepresenceoftheHouse recommends this House to con ider; if it is not whether these awards. it appears, and that has been the po ition of Venezuela all the time, were fraudulent and whether the proceedings of this commission were that there ~ever has been an adjudication of a claim that is binding on tainted with fraud? the Venezuelan Government? 1\ir. WILSON. I can not submit to a long argument: You gentle­ Mr. WILLSON. Oh, I did not want to talk about the facts in the men have had all day for yourselves. I want to talk a little while case, nor quote from Blanco. about the issue pending here before Congr . Mr. SPRINGER. The gentleman did talk about the fads. Secretary Fish, in July, 1875, in a dispatch"to our minister at Ven­ Mr. WILSON. I talked only of the i ue here presented; lam talk- ezuela, re-viewed fully ana ably the history of this entire transaction, ing about the legal qu~tion. , sustaining the position of our Governm'ent, and bowing the ground­ :. Mr. SPRINGER. Arid I say the gentleman does not present the lessness of tpe complaints of Venezuela, and the utter ab ence of any issue correctly. ' · testimony to maintain their charge. ·Here is wl1at Secretary Fish said..

·•.... ' •4r '- .. ~.!~ ~ • 1883. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. 1305

M:r. RICE, of Uassa~husetts. That was before t.his t timony came As I con ider the passiug of this resolution a direct step toward the abolition of those sacred rights for which we hnve fought and bled, should I give my con~ out. · sent to it tho blood which I have shed and my own mutilated frame would re­ Mr. COX, of New York. Long before that. proach me. Mr. WILSON. But I do not want to break in on my line of argu­ [Cries of "Vote!" "Vote!"] ment with aU this. I have been upon the Committee on Foreign Affairs Gentlemen, I do not object to your calling for a vote. I have desired· for the lnst three Congresses, and I am to-day the oldest member of the only to explain my own position. So long as I have been connected with. Committee on Foreign Affairs in continuous service. · . the Committee on Foreign .A.fi:hlrs, and with the Congress of the United · I am the author of the aet of 1 7 . I prepared that act with my own State , I have never raised my voice and I will never mise my voice to· bands, because I thought the act of 1 73sbould be repealed. I thought aid any department of the Government to encroach on the rights of ConQTeSS had no power over the subject. I prepared the act that was another co-ordinate department. Here is a flagrant encroachment pro­ adopted by this House with singular unanimity, and adopted also by po ed a proposition to do that which we b,fJ.ve no more power todo than.. the Senate and approved by the President. In that act the House and you have to go into the Senate of the United St,ates and cast your vote the Senate declined to express any opinion on the merits of the subject, without having amembership in that body. If you desire to pass the the que:::.tion belonging entirely to the executive department. bill which the Secretary of State asked you to pass, or which the Senate­ One word more. Secretary Frelingbuysen named theSe seven claims, of the United States has passed, I shall waive my objection. points them out, as being subject to the imputation of fraud. The other I might go on citing precedent after precedent to. show that the­ seventeen claims he says, by and with the advice and sanction of the popular branch ~f Congress has no authority Up()n such a question as President, ought not to be, and as far· as the executive head· of this this. When President Andrew Jackson had the public deposits re­ Government is concerned, shall not be disturbed. moved from the Bank of .the United States, Congress for some reason Now, I want to talk to the House a moment upon the power of or other sent to him an inquiry asking what instructions he had given Congress over this subject. Under the articlesofthe old confedemtion his officials on that subject. President Jackson in reply said, as clearly this House had a voice in the ratification or rejection' of "treaties with as language could say, ''It is none of th~ pusiness of the HoU¥ of Rep­ foreign powers. But bytbe convention which framed our present Con­ resentatives, .and I do not propose to answer t.he question.'' And he stitution that. power was taken away from this Hou e. Under the pres­ did not answer it. The popular branch of Congress, assuming prerog­ ent Constitution the Hou e of Representatives has no control, any more atives that did not belong to them, undertook to 'encroach upon the­ than any other tribunal in the bnd, over the ratification or the rejection rights and powem of the Executive, arid President Ja~kson rf;pelled of a treaty. ' the encroachment. :Mr. PAGE. Not all treaties. One word to my friend from illinois [Mr. SPRINGER], a man whom .Mr. WILSON. Of all treaties. The President is the treaty-mak­ I love. God bless him ! "With all his faults I love him still ! " ing power, subject only to ratification by the Senate; .two-thirds of the [Laughter.] But since he bas ''pitched into" me so savagely, since­ Senators pr~ent votipg so to do make the treaty the supreme law o,f he has ''gone for'' me o ferociously. I will remind him of another- the land. little incident." · ~ I ean go back very far in our history, and if this House de ires to It was when the Democratic party came into power in 1875. I had have read I '"vill read you an analogous case. It commenced in 1796, the honor then to be a member of this Honse. We had defeated theRe­ just after tbe Jay treaty had been adopted between this country and publican party and captured this branch of Congress by over sixty ma­ Great Brit:1in. jority. We look~ to our friend from illinois [Mr. SPRINGER] as a Our minister to Great Britain, John Jay, who had negotiated that man who was to bore the Radical party for oil. [Laughter.] He went treaty, c::tme to Philadelphia and was burned ine~gy; hewas_mobbed. at them with a will. He .offered a good many resolutions which stag- The question came before Congress, and thi Hou e propounded a reso­ ' gered and dumbfounded them. After a while he conceived the brilliant. lution which I hold here in my band. idea of offering a resolution in reference to thepla the . * :!: Court of Claims. TJ;le Committee on ForeignAffuirs, tb,at i;>. tb~se who 1306 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD- HOUSE. J .A},-ru.ARY 17,

reported on it-I did not-ignored the bill, ignored the gentleman who The SPEAKER. The gentleman from Georgia, reserred some of his offered it, ignored the recommendations of the President, ignored the time. recommendations of the State Department, and they brought in here a · Mr. BLOUNT. And I shall occupy but little ofthetimel re erred. resolution, not to accomplish the purpose of the State Department, but .Mr. RICE of Ma chusetts. I desire to give notice that after the a proposition to accomplish a wholly different object. Now, sir, Presi­ gentleman from Georgia has spoken I hall move the previous question. dent Arthur to-day can provide for anothex treaty without the aid of Mr. PAGE. I uggest that the gentleman from Massaehusetts can this House. not move the previous question until the joint resolution is considered To pass this re olution is to pa beyond the boundary line between in the Committee of the Whole under the .five-minute rule. two co-ordinate branches of the Government. We have no more power The PEAKER. Thejointr olution is not in the Committee of th to do it than the Pr sident has to come in here and vote as a member Whole. <>f this House. The President, under the power giwn to him by the MT. PAGE. It is in the House as in Committ e of the Whole, ac­ Constitution, in polite.terms ha a ked thisHousetoremittotheCourt cording to the order that it wa to be considered in the House as in of Claims-not to let the Comt of Claims decide the constitutionality Committee of the Whole. of any question involved, not to decide in reference to any question of The SPEAKER. The previous question may be ordered upon the international law, but to decide whether from the evidence fraud wa resolution, as it wa on the motion of the gentleman from California committed in the procurement of some of these awards. [Mr. PAGE] himself the other day on the shipping bill. This resolution provides for a new mh:ed commission under a trec'l.ty Mr. BLOUNT. I desire to call the attention of the Hou e to a tate­ between the United tat and Venezuela. Let me readjust a few ex­ ment of the gentleman who has just taken his e..'l.t [Mr. WILSON] that tracts, ifyouplec'lSe, from PresidentWashington' message toshowhow the State Department haYe declared that there wa · no assault except unauthorized this action would be: upon seven ofth e claims. Tho e even claims amounted to $794,000 Having been a member of the general convention, and knowing the principles of the award. The.remaining claims amount to about $459,000. The on which t~e Constitution wa form edt~ have ever entertained but one o:pinion Venezuelan Government and its representatives here are not asking on this subJect, and from the first e tabushment of the Government to thlS mo­ ment my conduct has exemplified that opinion, that the power of making treaties that those shall be reviewed at all. ~e they claim that the whole is exclusively vested in the Pre ident, by and with the advice and consent of the matte;r has been fraudulent they are willing to avoid any issue as to Senate, provided two-thirds of the Senators pre ent concur; and that every treaty 459,000. The seYen claims amount to $794,000. .so made and promulgated thenceforward becom the law of the land. The gentleman from West Virginia, who has just poken, attempts In those* journals* [tho. e of *the general* convention] * it will appear* that *a propo- to ob truct this resolution by a suggestion that we are in conflict 'vith sition was made" that no treaty hould be binding on the United State which wa the President of the United States upon a constitutional question as to not ratified by law," and that the propo ition w a explicitly rejected. where the treaty power resides. Now, 1\Ir. Speaker, this matter has And as* it is e ential* to the* due administration* * of the Government"' "'that the been for a great many years considered by the Executive and by Con­ boundaries fixed by the Constitution between different d epartments should be gress. I hold in my hand a joint resolution in reference to the pay­ preserved, a ju t regard to the Constitution and to the duty of my office under ment of awards by the Venezuela mixed commi ion. In that joint all the circumstanc forbid a compliance with your reque t. G. WASillNGTON. resolution I :find this provision: That the President of the United State is h ereby reque ted to withhold further The Jomnal how that a proposition wa made in the Constitutional demands on the Government of Venezuela on account of the awards of the Convention that no treaty should be binding on the United States which mixed commission organized under the treaty of April25, 1866, between the United was not ratified by law. There was a propo ition made in the conven­ States and Venezuela, until the 4th 1\Iarch, 1877. tion which framed our pr ent Constitution that the popular branch of That time has expired, and the Yarious reports of committees of the Congress should have a \Ote on the subject of treaties, but that propo­ House of Representa.tiv have induced the Executive of the United sition was deliberately \Oted down. The Articles of Confederation did States to feel it his duty to stand till in the presence of the charges not work well, and that convention was asssembled, representing all against that commission. The SeCI·etary of State has, in his communi­ the States, for the purpose of adopting a new constitution, and to form cation to the President upon this very subject, made this declaration: a more perfect union. After so many and o decided authoritative expressions of opinion from repre­ One question was distinctly settled, and that was that the popular sentative of one part of the legislative branch of the Government, it eems im­ po ible for the Executive, in its relations with a foreign power, to say that there branch ofthe Congress hould have no power over the question oftreaties. i nothing in these transactions which ought to be inqmred into. On the con­ They decided that that question should be left entirely to the Execu­ trary, the honor of the country requires that everything of which Yene-iuelt\ tive, who is the beginner, the author, and the finisheroftreaties, proYid­ may rightfully complain hould be inve tign.ted. .ing always that no treaty should be valid until two-thirds of the Sen­ This is the b.nguage of the Secretary of State, and he simply sug­ ate had concurred in the same. Now, Mr. Speaker; I am not talking gests the reference of these claims to the Court of Claim . The Presi­ at random upon that question. I state it from the book, and I say that dent makes no recommendation upon the subject. He calls the atten­ this resolution which is presented here is a departure, a clear, plain, tion of Congress to the fact that their :final settlement has been postponed and palpable departure, from that. principle of (!9nstitutional power from year to year, and to thereports that have been made. He says it which the convention saw proper to establish, and is in my judgment is time that one branch or the other should act, and he is awaiting our a manifest-I will not say impertinent-interference with the powers of action; not sugg ting any particular line of action, but waiting for some the Executive. If you want to formulate a resolution upon the sub­ action from us. He is asking it at our hands. He is not at issue with ject in accord with the recommendation of the Executi,e, why in God's us on any constitutional question; not at all. On the contrary he i name do you not do it? Take the judgment of the Secret..e him the means to remoYe the doubt which exists accord; an~ I trust, sir, that ·with unanimity or almost entire unan­ in his own mind. imity-my friend ft'Om West Virginm dissents, but I trust there will be Will you ignore his request? Will you wring from him the power no othe. dissent on the part of the House of Representatives-this re­ which he has under the Constitution? Will you wrest from him his port will be adopted, and that the expression of the House will be so authority under the law :md frame a new commission and try the case decided that this whole country and that all countries may understand de Moo, without his consent and inferentblly against his will? You that the sentiment of honor, the sentiment of regard for national integ­ propose in this bill to wring from the President the power that he has rity permeates the House of Representatives and every American citizen. under the Federal Constitution. Mr. WILSON. I desire to say just one word. (Cries of "Vote!" ENROLLED BIT..LS IGXED. ''Vote ! ''] I hope gentlemen will listen to me for a moment. The SPEAKER. The gentleman from :M:assachu [Mr. RrcE] is :rth·. SHALLE~BERGER, from the Committee on Enrolled Bills, re­ ctts ported that the committee had examined and found truly enrolled a recognized. bill of the following title; when the Speaker signed the same: Mr. . RICE, of Massaehusetts. I demand the previou question. A bill (H. R. 7052) making appropriations for the Agricultural Depart­ Mr. WILSON. I desire to make one remark in reply to the gentle­ ment of the Government for the .fi cal year ending June 30, 1884, and man from Georgia. I belie\e I had the :floor before the gentleman from for other purpos Massachusetts was recognized to caJl the pre>iou question. I wish to say a word about this fling of the gentleman from Georgia VENEZUELA l\IIXED COJU~IISSIOX. at me. The gentleman says he never heard this argument before hut · Mr. BLOUNT. I desire to occupy the time of the House only for once, and that was in the Committee on Foreign Affairs. If the gentle­ four or five minute . [Cries of'' Vote! ' "Vote!"] . D:L.'ill bad read the book of his ancestor, the book of Mr. Blount, of 1883. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD- HOUSE. 1307

Georgia, who was in Congress in the time of the Revolutionary War, he man Boker & Co., and others, importers and dealers in percussion caps, would have found a statement of the same doctrine; and I think the praying that percussion caps be taken from the list of goods classed as Mr. BLoUXT of to-day would not, if he had read that book, be holding explosives-to the Committee on Ways and Means. the position on this que tion he now does. The gentleman tells the Mr. BELTZHOOVER: ThepetitionofA. Watson, askingforthetrans­ Hou e I have miSI·epre ented what the ec1·eta.ry of State recommends fer of the weather bureau of the Signal Service to the Interior Depart­ here. Let me read an extract referring to this Yery matt(!r, and I ask ment-to the Committee on Military Affairs. gentlemen to listen: By .Mr. CALKIN : The petition of the mayor and common council The Secretary of State recommends the pa."-Sage of an act. which will direct of Michigan City, Indiana, on the suQjectofthecommunication of the the Court of Claims, upon the documentary evidence now in the Department of ecretary of War on the river and harbor appropriations-to the Com­ tate orprinted in Congre ional document , and upon such further proofas may be submitted under the niles made or to be made by the court, to hear and d e­ mittee on Commerce. termine· with or withoutcoun el. as the court may decide, whether any, and, if By Mr. GUNTER: The petition of George W. Grayson, for balance so, whiclt ?f the seven award objected to by Venezuela were obtained by fraud of salru:y due under Creek Indian treaty, August 11, 1 66-to the Com­ or corruption, &c. mittee on Appropriation . Mr. RICE, of :Ma achuset:L ~-\.ml the ellltte committee has re­ By Mr. HATCH: Iemorial of the Saint Louis Cotton Exchange, pro­ ported that the Court of Claim ha · no· juri diction in the matte1·. testing against the transfer of the Signal Service Bureau to the Interior Mr. WILSON. The ecretary of ._;tate asks a specific thing; a ks Department-to the Committee on Military Affairs. that this Congress hall pass an act l'eferring this question to the Court :By Mr. HOL~N: Papersrelatingto the claim ofLewisHartwell­ -of Claims, and that they hall report whether or not any of the seven to the Committee on War Claims. claims complained of by V nezuela are fi'alldulent. By Mr. LORD: ThepetitionoftheDetroit (Michigan) Board of Trade, Mr. MILU. Didnotthe .Mr. ANTHONY. The Committee on P~ting, to which was referred J. Jaramillo; which was read twice by its title, and referred to the Com­ the bill (S. 2370) to amend section 3780 of the Revised ~tn.tutes, directs mittee on Claims. me to ~port it without amendment, and t~ ask for its present consid­ ~Ir. BUTLER asked and, J>y up.animous consept, obtained .lel:lve to­ eration. introduce a bill {S. 2384} to authorize the retirement of Colonel Henry Mr. EDMUNDS. Let it be read for information. J. Hunt, Fifth United States Artillery, with the rapk and pay of briga­ After rearling, by unanimous consent,. the Senate, as in Committee dier-general; whicb was read twice by its title, and, with the oocompany­ of the Whole, proceeded to consider the bill. ;It amends section 37 0 ing papers, referred to the Committee on Military Affairs. of the Rev~sed Statutes so as to read: · Mr. UORGAN asked and, by unanimous consent, obtained leaye to­ When the probable cost of the maps or plates a{)Companying one work or doc­ introduce a bill (S. 2385) for the relief of Henry H. Sibley; which was ument exceeds $1,200, the lithographing or engraving thereof shall be awarded read twice -by its title, and referred to the CQmmittee on Claims. to ~he lowest and best bidder, after advertisement. by ~e Congressional Printer, Mr. RANSOM nsked and, by unanimous consent, obtained leave to­ under the direction of the Joint Conunittee on Public Printing. Butthe com­ mittee may authorize him to make immediate contracts for lithographing or introduce a bill (S. 23 6) to authorize the purchase of a wharf for the engraving whenever, in ~heir opinion, the exigencies ofthe public service do not use of the Government in Wilmington, North Carolina; which was .read justify advertisements for proposals. mce by its title, and referred to the Com.mittee on Commerce. Mr. EDMUNDS. Will the Senator explain to u "\That the pre ent WITHDRAWAL OF PAPERS. law is? Mr. ANTHONY. The present law limits to 250 the amount of a 'On motion of Mr. VOORHEE , it was contract to be let without advertisement. The ln.w requires the adver­ Ordered, That permis ion be given to withdraw from the files of the Senate certain papers of the late William S. Carr, subject t<> the rule gov.erning such tisement to be put in twelve ·different pa.pers, !ind the cost of advertis­ cases. ing is much l»Ore ~~a~ the difference between thehighest and the low­ PRINTL~G OF TESTIMONY. est bids. On motion of Mr. ¥0RRILL, it was Mr. EDMUNDS. The only ~hange then is that it carries it up- to Ordered, That certa in te timony concerning the bill (H. R. 5538) to reduce in­ $1,200. ternal-revenue taxation, now being taken by the Committee on Finance, be Mr. ANTHONY. Th.li) carries itupto 1,290, under thcdirectionot printed for the use of the committee. · the Joint Committee :On Printing. FOURTH ARKAXSA.S INFANTRY. The bill wns reported to the Senate without amendment, ordered to be engrossed for a third reading, read the third time, and pa ed. Mr. GARL.A..L.~D. I submit the following resolution, and k for its present consideration: PRIKTIKG OF HOUSE TARIFF BTI..L. Resolved, That the Secretary of War be directed to inform the Sen at~ what ac­ Mr. ANTHONY. Yesterdayireportedfrom theCommitteeonPrint­ tion has been taken under the provi ions of the resolution approved 1\I.arch 18, 1870, providing for the payment of the Fourth Arkansns Mounted Infantry Vol­ ing a concurrent resolution from the House ofRepresentatives authoriz­ unteers, and to furnish copies of all papt>rs, correspondence, and ruusler-rolls. ing the printing of extra copies of the tariff bill reported in the House, on file in hi Department, relating to said organization. a.nd the resolution was laid over under objection. It would be a. con­ The en..'1te, by unanimous consent, proeeeded to consider the I lu­ venience to the other House and a courtesy on our part to pass it at tion. once. Mr. GARLA.l"'U>. The ecretary .of War "b.· -discovered that possi­ The PRESIDENT p1·o tempore. The resolution will be read for in­ bly the resolution of 1870 can not be enforced on account of some diffi­ formation. culty in the rolls or the papers in his office, and .it is neces.<;ary to get The resolution was read and concurred in, as follows: copies of them that we may know what legisL'lti.on is necessary to carry Resolvedb'IJ the How;e of Rq>resentatit•es (the Senate eoncuTring), Thnt6,000copies of the bill (H. R. 7313) t<> impose duties upon foreign 'import , and accompany­ the resolution into effect. ing reports, be printed, of which 2,000 copies shall be for the use of the Senate Mr. COCKRELL. I suggest to the Senator from Ark..'UlSaS that be­ ::m.d 4,000 copies for the use Of the House. . certainly does not want copies of all the muster-rolls of that regiment. REPORTS OF CD:\GfiTTEES. It would entail a work that would take months and months to copy all the various muster-rolls of the regiment from the beginning of the or­ :Ur. .LAPHAM, from the Committee on Patents, to whom was referred ganization down to the lo e. the bill ( . 2070) for the relief of the Union Metallic Cartridge Company, Mr. GARLAND. do not know what will be the amount of work, reported it with an amendment, :md submitted a report thereon, which but as there seems e difficulty in the matter, and we want to see if" was ordered to be printed.. ' we can remedy it, can not very well shorten the inquiry and meet Mr. COKE. I am <.tirected bytheCommitteeonCommerce, towhom the difficul.tysugg ed. Let the resolution go in that shape, and if the­ was referred the joint resolution (S. R. 126) providing for the purchase SecretarY of War s there will be any difficulty about it we can arrange­ of steam-launches for use in the harbors of Galveston, Texas, and Mo­ it in some other bile, .Alabama, t~ report it favorably and without amendment. I am The resolution further directed by the committee to a k for action upon the joint reso­ lution at this time. DI TRICT POLICE FORCE. :Mr. EDMUNDS. I hould like to see it in print. 1\fr. INGALLS. I reported from the Committee on the District of Mr. COKE. Thenlgive noticethati shallaskto takeit uptmdcon­ Columbia. a few days since a House bill to increase the police force oi ider it to-morrow morning after the routine morning business. the District of Columbia, and for other purposes, for which I suppose ?tfr. EDl\1UND . That is all ri~t. there can be no doubt a great necessity exists. If it is to pa , an addi­ The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The joint resolution will be placed on tional appropriation will be required. The bill making appropriations the Calendar. for the District of Columbia is now before the Committee on Appro­ !Ir. VANCE. I am a~thorized by the Committee on the Distl:ict of priations, and I hould like to have the bill acted upon this morning Col urn bia, to whom was referred the bill (H. R. 7226) to punish larceny on that account, if possible, so that the Committee on Appropriation...:; from the person in the District of Columbia, to report it without amend­ may know what a.ction to take in regard to that nppropriation bill. If ment with a recommendation that it be passed. I file a letter from there · no objection I ask that the biU may be taken up for considera­ Judge Snell, of this city, with the bill in the nature of a report. tion. The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The re~rt will be printed. Mr. EDl\IU~D . The bill had better be read for information and Mr. MORRILL, from the Committee on Finance, to whom wa re­ let us hear what it i . ferred the bil~ (S. 2305) authorizing the commissioner of the Freedman's The Acting Secretary re..'l.d the pill : . . Savi,ngs and Trust Company to examine and au5lit certain ~laims against By ~ani)nous conse~t, the Se.nate, as in CQ~~ttee of. the ;whole,

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