Wednesday Volume 524 9 March 2011 No. 129

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 9 March 2011

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late” and that they had the opportunity to lead the way House of Commons on higher education in the United Kingdom, but chose to follow. Wednesday 9 March 2011 Angus Robertson: The Minister chose not to answer the question. Returning to the comments of the Secretary The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock of State, at the same time, he said that accepting tuition fees of £9,000 was a “car crash” and “a train wreck”. Will the Minister confirm that, because the issue is PRAYERS devolved, Scotland does not have to follow the hare-brained policy of the Liberal Democrats and Conservatives in government in England by introducing a car crash of a [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] policy in Scotland?

David Mundell: My concern for students in Scotland stems from the failure of the Scottish National party Oral Answers to Questions Government to address the issue of higher education funding in Scotland. As the hon. Gentleman will know, a funding gap of up to £260 million in higher education in Scotland has been identified as a result of the SNP’s SCOTLAND governance. By my definition, that is a car crash.

Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con): The aspect The Secretary of State was asked— of the reform of higher education funding in England that I most applaud is the fact that, for the first time, Higher Education Funding part-time students will receive the same treatment as full-time students. Will my right hon. Friend do all he can to persuade the Scottish Government to do all they 1. Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): What can to support part-time students in Scotland? recent discussions he has had with ministerial colleagues and Ministers in the Scottish Executive on funding for David Mundell: My hon. Friend identifies a positive higher education institutions in Scotland. [44075] and progressive aspect of the Government’s higher education policy as it applies to England, and it is a The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland policy that deserves to be introduced in Scotland. (David Mundell): I have regular discussions with ministerial colleagues on matters related to higher education in Fuel Duty Derogation Scotland. Funding for higher education in Scotland is largely a devolved matter, and my hon. Friend may be aware that the Scottish Government concluded the 2. Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an consultation on its Green Paper on the future of higher Iar) (SNP): What recent discussions he has had with the education funding on 1 March. Chancellor of the Exchequer on the implementation of a fuel duty derogation for rural areas. [44076] Mr Hollobone: In our United Kingdom, is it right that students from England studying in Scotland can be The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore): discriminated against in favour of students from Scotland I have regular discussions with the Chancellor of the or from other countries in the European Union? Exchequer on a wide range of issues. The Government have already announced that they intend to introduce a David Mundell: My hon. Friend will know, as I have pilot scheme that will deliver a discount on petrol and stated, that higher education is devolved, and it is for diesel in rural areas, including the inner and outer the Scottish Government to decide how to determine Hebrides, the Northern Isles, the islands in the Clyde, the funding of students from both Scotland and England. and the Isles of Scilly. The fact that £75 million is being spent funding students from the European Union in Scotland will be the subject Mr MacNeil: Through the rural fuel derogation we of considerable discussion at the forthcoming Scottish must ensure that there is transparency in fuel distribution Parliament elections. in the highlands and islands. Nine months ago, there was 8p difference between Stornoway and Inverness; Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP): Not long ago, the now there is 18p difference in the price of a litre of fuel. Secretary of State unwittingly told The Daily Telegraph Will the Secretary of State make sure that the Office of that Fair Trading looks at issues surrounding fuel distribution, “tuition fees are the biggest, ugliest, most horrific thing”, and that so that any savings from a rural fuel derogation are passed on to families, businesses and the community in breaking his word on the issue is the islands? “the worst crime a politician can commit”. Does the Minister agree with him? Michael Moore: I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s implicit recognition of the importance of the derogation, David Mundell: I agree with Sir Andrew Cubie, who which we are seeking and on which my right hon. commented on the Scottish Government’s proposals on Friends in the Treasury will make formal submissions in higher education, and said that their response was “too the near future. As for distribution issues, the hon. 891 Oral Answers9 MARCH 2011 Oral Answers 892

Gentleman is right to highlight the complexities of the Employment Levels price of fuel across the country. He knows that better than most people, and I am happy to meet him to 4. Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): What discuss the issue further. assessment he has made of recent trends in levels of employment in Scotland. [44078] Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD): I greatly welcome the introduction of the fuel duty discount 8. Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab): What pilot scheme on the islands, and I also welcome its assessment he has made of recent trends in levels of extension to the Isle of Bute. While we wait for permission employment in Scotland. [44082] from the EU, however, urgent action is needed to stop the price of fuel going up even further. Will the Secretary The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore): of State speak to the Chancellor and tell him that he Although the final quarter of 2010 saw falling must cancel the 4p fuel tax rise that Labour planned for unemployment and rising employment in Scotland, helping this year’s Budget? people into work remains a key priority for this Government.

Michael Moore: My hon. Friend will be the first to Ian Murray: Gross domestic product in the economy acknowledge that the fuel duty increases over the past has contracted by 0.6%, confidence is being shattered year reflect the previous Government’s plans to increase by the increase in VAT, unemployment is rising, with duty by 1p per litre over the retail prices index this year the full effect of public sector job losses to come, and and for years to come, and, as we have already discussed, employers all over my constituency are really concerned the derogation is now being sought. The Chancellor that the banks are getting away scot-free while they are and the Chief Secretary to the Treasury will have heard being hit the hardest. Does the Secretary of State have my hon. Friend’s strong representations on behalf of any plans at all for growth in order to get jobs back into his communities, and I recognise how serious an issue the Scottish economy? petrol and diesel prices are throughout the country. Michael Moore: In a compendium of issues, the hon. Gentleman forgets to mention the role that his own Research and Development Tax Credits Government played in the management of the economy up until last May. Our overriding priority is to get a path to sustainable growth, and that means stabilising 3. John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab): How the economy, which is what the deficit reduction plan is many small businesses in Scotland (a) applied for and about, and ensuring that we support businesses by (b) received research and development tax credits in the reducing tax, maintaining interest rates lower than they latest period for which figures are available? [44077] would otherwise have been and helping businesses to access finance. We have a real programme of action, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland unlike the previous Government. (David Mundell): In the financial year 2008-09, figures for the United Kingdom show that there were 350 claims Jim McGovern: Rising unemployment is a great concern for research and development tax credits from small in my constituency of Dundee West. In fairness to the and medium-sized businesses, and that the total amount Secretary of State, he did visit Dundee to see for himself of relief awarded was £15 million. Figures for Scotland the importance of the computer games industry to the are not currently held centrally. city, but does he continue to support the Government’s stance of not implementing a tax break, which both the Lib Dems and the Tories claimed to support prior to John Robertson: Well, there we are: once again, a the general election? If so, what plans does he have for question not answered. The hon. Gentleman probably job creation in my city of Dundee? does not even know that there is no R and D specialist unit in Scotland to help small businesses get tax credits—but Michael Moore: As I have said previously to the hon. there is one in Wales and six in England. Does he think Gentleman, our visit together to Abertay university was that that is fair? very worthwhile, and he makes a strong case for the computer games industry. Taxation is clearly a matter David Mundell: What I am aware of is that Her for the Chancellor, and the Budget is coming along Majesty’s Revenue and Customs R and D tax and soon, but, as I said in answer to his hon. Friend the credits unit held a workshop in Glasgow on 9 February, Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) a moment and it was well attended by businesses from the Glasgow ago, the overriding thing, which will help the computer area. games industry and everybody else, is to get us back on a sustainable path to growth. That is our overwhelming priority. Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): Do the Government intend to abolish the intellectual property restrictions John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) on R and D tax credits, which would make it much (LD): My right hon. Friend will know that marine easier for companies in Scotland in the biotechnology renewable energy offers tremendous employment prospects and micro-electronics industries to benefit? in Scotland. Is he aware of the proposal by Department for Energy and Climate Change Ministers to create David Mundell: The Government do indeed intend to renewable energy parks; and will he use all his powers to abolish that restriction, and I believe that it will have the ensure that the first such park is in Caithness, where all benefits that my hon. Friend outlines. the ingredients already exist? 893 Oral Answers9 MARCH 2011 Oral Answers 894

Michael Moore: Caithness could not hope for a finer soared over the past few months. As a result, in north advocate of its cause, and my hon. Friend has spoken Ayrshire in particular, we have the highest levels of with me on many occasions. The importance of renewables youth unemployment. What is he going to do about to the far north of Scotland—indeed, the whole of that? Scotland—is second to none, particularly in the context of the rundown of Dounreay, something that I know is Michael Moore: First, I commend the hon. Gentleman close to his heart and on which he works very carefully. for his consistent campaigning on this issue, which is a very significant one in his part of the world. However, I Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab): In December think that he would also acknowledge the point that I I highlighted to the House that in Campbelltown made to the hon. Member for Glasgow North (Ann 13 claimants were chasing every available job. Unfortunately McKechin) a moment ago—that youth unemployment the situation today is far worse: the Scottish Trades has been a serious problem for a long period. I discussed Union Congress reports that currently 27 jobseeker’s the issue with the Work and Pensions Secretary only allowance claimants are chasing every advertised vacancy last night. As I have said to the hon. Gentleman previously, in north Ayrshire. The Secretary of State says that he is I look forward to convening a meeting in his constituency concerned about high unemployment in Scotland, so where we will discuss all these issues with the relevant can he tell the House when he last visited north Ayrshire individuals and organisations from across Scotland. I and spoke directly to those people who are struggling to look forward to his being part of that event. find work?

Michael Moore: I have carried out a range of visits Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab): I around Scotland and will continue to do so; I am very think the whole House shares the concern that the happy to take up the hon. Lady’s suggestion. However, Secretary of State seems to indicate that he has, but can may I gently remind her that unemployment was rising he share with the House the number of young unemployed under her Government when she was in the Scotland people to whom he has spoken this year? Office? She should not look so pleased about the situation as it is now. Michael Moore: I have spoken to many young unemployed people across Scotland, not just this year Ann McKechin: Yet again, the Secretary of State fails but over the whole course of my time as a Member of to tell us what his alternative is. Thousands of our Parliament, and not just in my own constituency but young people have been worst hit. This Government elsewhere too. They all want to see a sustainable route claim that their Work programme will be much better, out of the difficulties that the country is in. This is not but officials are saying that there will be 250,000 fewer only about the Work programme measures that I have places next year than the number who entered Government already mentioned but about getting the country back schemes this year. Can he therefore confirm what percentage on its feet and tackling the deficit, making sure that we of 18 to 24-year-olds currently unemployed in Scotland have a sustainable way to growth by focusing on bank will be allowed to participate in the new Work programme, lending, keeping interest rates low, and providing support and whether it will be less than in the current year? by cutting taxes, be it corporation tax or national insurance. All those measures will help. Michael Moore: The hon. Lady is right to highlight the issue of youth unemployment, which is a key priority for the Government. Again, it is something that rose Welfare Reform Bill significantly throughout her time in office, and it needs to be tackled very seriously. We have already introduced 6. Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) elements of the Get Britain Working programme, the (Lab): What assessment he has made of the likely effect work clubs and the Working Together programme, and on families in Scotland of the changes to benefits the Work programme will come along in the summer. proposed by the Secretary of State for Work and We look forward to debating that further with her. Pensions. [44080] Youth Unemployment 7. Mrs Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab): What discussions he had with the Secretary of State for Work 5. Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab): and Pensions prior to the publication of the Welfare When he expects next to discuss with ministerial Reform Bill on the likely effect on Scotland of the colleagues trends in the level of youth unemployment measures in that Bill. [44081] in Scotland. [44079]

The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore): 10. Fiona O’Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab): When he The Government are determined to deal with the long-term last met anti-poverty campaigners in Scotland to legacy of youth unemployment, and this is a key priority discuss the potential effect in Scotland of the measures in my discussions with ministerial colleagues. Our Get in the Welfare Reform Bill. [44084] Britain Working measures and the new Work programme will provide the best possible support for young people The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland struggling to find employment. (David Mundell): The Secretary of State for Scotland and I are in regular contact with ministerial colleagues Mr Donohoe: I thank the Secretary of State for that in the Department for Work and Pensions. We also answer. He will be aware, however, that levels of meet regularly organisations in Scotland with an interest unemployment among the 18-to-24 age group have in welfare and combating poverty. 895 Oral Answers9 MARCH 2011 Oral Answers 896

Michael Connarty: That was not an answer to the in a home in Scotland and what it is applied for is question that I asked. I cite two cases to the Under- dependent on which home they are in. I am sure she will Secretary: a family with a son born with fragile X agree that that is not acceptable. syndrome and autism and another family with an absolutely outstanding young teacher who suffered a massive stroke. Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con): Does the Both of them now require 24-hour residential care. Minister agree that many families in Scotland are suffering Their lives will be damaged irreparably if the Government economically and socially because of the disastrous go ahead with the withdrawal of benefits for people in policies not only of 13 years of Labour Government, residential care—benefits that give them a quality of but of four years of Scottish National party Government life that makes residential care not a prison sentence. in Scotland? Will he undertake to work with the Secretary Will the Secretary of State and the Scotland Office of State for Work and Pensions to ensure that people in campaign with the people of Scotland against this Scotland who are in real need, especially those with proposal by the Government to withdraw benefits from disabilities, benefit under his Government’s policies? people in residential care? David Mundell: I agree with the hon. Lady’s analysis. David Mundell: The hon. Gentleman will be aware Like many people in Scotland, I recognise that the that there was a debate this morning in Westminster Welfare Reform Bill provides a once-in-a-generation Hall on that specific issue. The Government have indicated opportunity to radically overhaul the benefits and welfare that they are listening to the concerns. The fundamental system. issue with disability living allowance is that it is not fit for purpose and needs change. The Government are taking those changes forward. Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Green) (Con): Can the Minister indicate to the House how many low-paid Scots will be lifted out of income tax, and how Mrs McGuire: I have been contacted by Mr Ron many families in Scotland will benefit from the reform Skinner, MBE, who is a non-executive director of Order to tax credits that has been announced? of Malta Dial-a-Journey Ltd, which operates in my constituency. He expressed grave concern about the impact of the removal of mobility allowance from those David Mundell: I will seek out that information for in residential care. What specific discussions has the my hon. Friend and write to him. Minister had with his opposite numbers in the Department for Work and Pensions on this issue, which is causing Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): The great concern for those in residential care? changes announced last week to social fund crisis loans will cut the level and availability of loans for essential David Mundell: Yesterday, I met the Minister of State, items such as beds and cookers. Does the Minister agree Department for Work and Pensions, my right hon. that that will push vulnerable people on lower incomes Friend the Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling) towards high-cost lending and into the arms of loan and Lord Freud, the Minister in the House of Lords sharks, exacerbating problems that Scotland already who is responsible for welfare reform, to discuss the has? implications of welfare reform for Scotland. The right hon. Lady raises one such issue. As was said in Westminster David Mundell: I do not agree with the hon. Lady’s Hall this morning, DLA as it currently exists is not fit analysis. I am surprised to hear again from the Scottish for purpose. It is applied randomly across care homes, National party that it does not welcome the devolution not just in Scotland but across the United Kingdom, of elements of the social fund to the Scottish Parliament. and it needs to be reformed. Green Investment Bank Several hon. Members rose—

Mr Speaker: Order. There are far too many private 9. Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): conversations taking place in the Chamber. Let us have What recent discussions he has had with the Secretary a bit of order for Fiona O’Donnell. of State for Business, Innovation and Skills on the operation of the green investment bank in Scotland. Fiona O’Donnell: Like you, Mr Speaker, I am feeling [44083] in a generous mood, so I will give the Under-Secretary of State a third chance to redeem himself. The Prime The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore): Minister’s excuse for removing the mobility component I have regular discussions with the Secretary of State was that it addressed an anomaly between those in for Business, Innovation and Skills on a wide range of hospital and those in residential care. Will the Under- issues, including the operation of the green investment Secretary of State at least acknowledge that residential bank. The green investment bank will support economic care homes are based on a social model, and not a growth in all parts of the country and help us to meet medical model? our environmental objectives.

David Mundell: I certainly acknowledge that residential Chi Onwurah: Like the north-east, Scotland has great care homes are social rather than medical institutions wind resources, and we are looking forward to getting a primarily. However, as the hon. Lady will know, having return on all that wind. Does the Secretary of State been present at this morning’s debate, many care homes agree that the delays to and downgrading of the green operate the mobility aspect of disability living allowance investment bank are preventing us from making the differently. The basis on which it is applied to a person best of that asset? 897 Oral Answers9 MARCH 2011 Oral Answers 898

Michael Moore: First, as somebody whose constituency Margaret Curran: Is the Minister aware of the sense is not that far from Newcastle, I agree with the hon. of outrage throughout Scotland that under this Lady that we should appreciate all its wonderful Government’s watch, the increase in VAT means that characteristics, including its weather patterns. I agree low and middle-income families now pay a higher rate that around the whole coast of the UK, we have much of tax on purchases and earnings than the banks are to that we can exploit for renewable energy. On the specifics pay on their profits? How can that possibly be fair, and of the announcement on the green investment bank, we why do the Government continue to insist that those are taking the matter forward aggressively and she will with the least should pay the most? hear further information announced very soon. David Mundell: I am aware of the sense of outrage, Mike Crockart (Edinburgh West) (LD): Does the not just in Scotland but throughout the UK, at the state Secretary of State agree that the green investment bank of the economy that the last Labour Government left us could open up tremendous potential for rebalancing the with, which has required such measures to be taken. economy and creating a great many new jobs? For that to happen, it needs financial experience, research and Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab): Does development experience in the academic institutions the Minister not accept that the recent increase in VAT, and renewable energy experience, all of which are available particularly on fuel such as petrol and diesel, is having a in abundance in Scotland, and particularly in Edinburgh. more dramatic effect on the economy in rural areas? It would therefore be a perfect location for the institution. Does he not think that his Government should address that? Michael Moore: I commend my hon. Friend for his efforts to locate the green investment bank in Edinburgh. David Mundell: The hon. Lady would be much more I welcomed the opportunity to meet him and the hon. credible on that point if she had spoken out against her Member for Edinburgh North and Leith (Mark Government’s rises in duty. The issue of fuel prices in Lazarowicz) recently to discuss that very issue. I and rural areas is serious, and it is already clear that my other Ministers look forward to hearing further details right hon. Friend the Chancellor has heard the concerns. on the proposal in the near future. West Lothian Question Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/ Co-op): When I asked the Secretary of State about the green investment bank in October, he said that he would 12. Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): make the best possible case for its location in Scotland, What discussions he has had with the Deputy Prime yet his Department has been forced to concede under Minister on the establishment of a commission to freedom of information that he has had no correspondence examine the West Lothian Question. [44086] with Department of Energy and Climate Change Ministers on the issue and that there are no notes of meetings The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland with them about it. How is he actually pressing the case (David Mundell): The Secretary of State and I have rather than just dealing in rhetoric? regular discussions with the Deputy Prime Minister on various issues, including those concerning the constitution. Michael Moore: I am aware of the hon. Gentleman’s The Government remain committed to establishing a commitment to freedom of information, and I am commission this year to consider the West Lothian delighted to say that, as he knows from his time in the question. Scotland Office, those are not the only ways in which Ministers meet. I have had many conversations with the Harriett Baldwin: The Deputy Prime Minister told us Secretaries of State for Energy and Climate Change and that the commission would be established by the end of for Business, Innovation and Skills, the Deputy Prime 2010, then the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, Minister and others on the issue. Like the hon. Gentleman, my hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean I hope that my colleagues will support the case for the (Mr Harper), told us that it would be established in the bank coming to Scotland. new year. Does the Minister know on what date in 2011 the commission will be established? Several hon. Members rose— David Mundell: I am not able to give my hon. Friend Mr Speaker: Order. There is still far too much noise an exact date, but as she will know, it is a commitment in the Chamber. It is very unfair on people asking of the coalition Government to proceed with the questions and Ministers answering them. commission, and I am sure announcements will be Value Added Tax made shortly.

11. Margaret Curran (Glasgow East) (Lab): What Private Sector Employment discussions he has had with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the effect on the economy in Scotland of 13. John Stevenson (Carlisle) (Con): What recent the increase in the standard rate of value added tax. discussions he has had with the First Minister on support [44085] for private sector employment in Scotland. [44087]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore): (David Mundell): The Secretary of State and I have In my recent discussions with the First Minister, we regular discussions with the Chancellor of the Exchequer spoke about a range of issues, including economic on a range of issues. The VAT rise is a tough but policies. Returning the United Kingdom to sustainable necessary step towards Britain’s economic recovery. economic growth is the Government’s overriding priority. 899 Oral Answers9 MARCH 2011 Oral Answers 900

We are doing everything we can to create the conditions done in the past, the facts show that they really should that enable UK businesses to be successful and create change their behaviour. I am not sure whether it is more jobs. possible to legislate in that area—we need a change in attitudes, which he is helping to lead with the British John Stevenson: If the Scottish economy is to be Lung Foundation and others. rebalanced, the future clearly lies with employment in the private sector. Can the Minister therefore give some Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con): indication of how much Scottish businesses will save Yesterday was international women’s day, and today from the Government’s changes to the employers’ national great trade figures and export growth were announced. insurance threshold and rate, and of how many businesses Does the Prime Minister agree that we would have even will benefit from the payment holiday for new businesses? better figures if we managed to get more women on the boards of companies across the UK? Michael Moore: My hon. Friend is right to point to the importance of reducing the tax burden, and we are The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is right to draw determined to do that. We estimate that the national attention to today’s trade figures, which show a big insurance reductions will bring a benefit of £280 million increase in exports, which is exactly the sort of rebalancing to businesses in Scotland, or the equivalent of helping that our economy needs. It is absolutely right that we 59,000 jobs. need to get more women involved in the work force and at board level. In addition, in terms of entrepreneurialism, if we had the same rate of women setting up small businesses as America, we would have tens of thousands PRIME MINISTER of extra businesses creating wealth and jobs.

The Prime Minister was asked— Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab): I start by paying tribute to Lance Corporal Liam Tasker from the Royal Army Veterinary Corps. He was doing a job that Engagements put him in such danger, and he showed extraordinary bravery and courage. We remember him, and we pass Q1. [45187] Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab): If he will on deep condolences to his family and friends. list his official engagements for Wednesday 9 March. Can the Prime Minister tell us who authorised the mission in Benghazi last weekend? The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): I am sure the whole House will wish to join me in paying tribute The Prime Minister: The Foreign Secretary set out to Lance Corporal Liam Tasker from the Royal Army the position absolutely in full in the House on Monday, Veterinary Corps, who died on Tuesday 1 March. The but let me say clearly that I take full responsibility for whole country has been touched by the story of this everything that my Government do. true hero, who selflessly worked with his search dog, Theo, to locate improvised explosive devices, weapons Edward Miliband: I am grateful to the Prime Minister and bomb-making equipment to save many, many lives. for saying that, and I want to support him on Libya He will not be forgotten, and our deepest condolences wherever I can, but there is increasing concern about should be with his family, his friends and his colleagues. the Government’s competence on the issue. We have This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues had the flights fiasco, talk of Colonel Gaddafi heading and others, and in addition to my duties in this House, I to Venezuela when he was not, overblown briefing shall have further such meetings later today. about potential military action, and the setback last weekend. Does the Prime Minister think that it is just a Ian Mearns: I am sure the whole House will join me problem with the Foreign Secretary, or is it a wider in passing on their condolences to the family and friends problem in his Government? of our fallen service personnel. The Prime Minister will be aware that today is The Prime Minister: I am not sure that I particularly no-smoking day. Will he join me in congratulating the want to take a lecture from Labour about dealing with organisers of the “Making Smoking History” lantern Gaddafi and Libya. The first thing that we should have parade which takes place this evening in Wrekenton, a from the Labour party when it comes to Libya, Gaddafi part of my constituency that is particularly blighted by and the release of Megrahi is an apology, which we still that addiction? Will he also comment on British Lung have not had. When it comes to this Government’s Foundation research that shows that more than half of conduct, we have led the way in getting a tough UN children surveyed across the UK have been exposed to resolution on Libya, getting Libya thrown out of the cigarette smoke in cars, and that 86% of children want Human Rights Council and making sure that the world adults— is preparing for every eventuality, including a no-fly zone. Mr Speaker: Order. We have got the drift. Edward Miliband: Everybody will have heard the The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman makes a deafening silence about the performance of the Foreign good point with great passion. I certainly support Secretary. There is an issue of competence at the heart no-smoking day, and unlike in some previous years, I of this Government, and I want to turn to another hope to meet its requirements in full this year. His point example of incompetence. Does the Prime Minister about smoking in front of children and babies and think that people will notice the loss of 12,000 front-line smoking in cars is a good one. Whatever people have police officers? 901 Oral Answers9 MARCH 2011 Oral Answers 902

The Prime Minister: First, the right hon. Gentleman The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman is raises the issue of the Foreign Secretary. Let me tell wrong. The Association of Chief Police Officers is not him: I think we have an excellent Foreign Secretary. talking about front-line officers, so he is simply wrong When it comes to it, there is only one person around about that. Let me remind him what his home affairs here I can remember knifing a Foreign Secretary, and I spokesman said at the time of the election, when asked think I am looking at him. [Interruption.] Right, I “Can you guarantee if you form…the next government that think we have dealt with that. police numbers won’t fall? We want to see police on the streets fighting crime, Alan Johnson: No”. not stuck behind their desks fighting paper. That is That was the position, and this is what he said after the what we want to achieve. Let me say to the right hon. election: Gentleman that whoever was standing here right now “if Labour had won the general election, the Home Office budget would have to be reducing the Home Office budget and would have been cut and the police would have had to make the policing budget. Labour was committed to a £1.3 billion savings”. cut. The question is not “Are you reducing the budget?”; What we see today, once again, is jumping on a bandwagon the question is “What are you doing to cut the paperwork, and total opportunism. The right hon. Gentleman has freeze the pay, deal with the allowances and make sure no plans to reform welfare, no plans to reform the NHS the police are on the streets?” and nothing useful to say about policing. Edward Miliband: We know that the Government are Edward Miliband: The more that the right hon. out of touch, and now we know that they are incompetent Gentleman brings my relatives into this argument, the as well: incompetent on Libya and incompetent on more that we know he is losing the argument. I have a policing. The Prime Minister may act like he was born second cousin in Belgium he will be going after next, I to rule, but the truth is that he is not very good at it. am sure. On the question of crime, the Prime Minister says The Prime Minister: The usual pre-scripted questions that he wants to improve front-line policing, but the that he dreamt up earlier. The question is: has he got a West Midlands is losing 1,000 officers, Bedfordshire has reform plan for the NHS? [HON.MEMBERS: “No!”] Has scaled back gun licence checks, and now we hear that he got a police reform plan? [HON.MEMBERS: “No!”] companies that have been burgled are to be sent fingerprint Has he got a plan to cut the deficit? [HON.MEMBERS: kits in the post. I know that he believes in the big “No!”] It is no wonder that the former Foreign Secretary society, but solving your own crimes is a bit ridiculous, has just said that even by his standards. You have to ask, Mr Speaker: “the…Left is losing elections on an unprecedented scale because does the Prime Minister actually have a clue what is it has lost control of the political agenda…it is also losing key going on out there? arguments”— and it has a The Prime Minister: I think the leader of the Labour “deficit in ideas”. party is getting a little bit touchy about this issue. That is what he said, and he is absolutely right. The point that I would make is that if we listen to Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): Will my what chief constables are saying about what they want right hon. Friend join me in congratulating the people to do—[Interruption.] Here is the chief constable of of Suffolk, who, in less than a year, have raised more Thames Valley: than £3 million to build a new children’s hospice through “what I haven’t done at all is reduce the number of officers who the Treehouse appeal? This is an example of the community do the patrol functions, so the officers you see out in vehicles, on coming together to support a local project that will foot, in uniform, on bicycles. We haven’t cut those numbers really make a difference. It is also supported by BBC at all.” Suffolk, the Evening Star and the East Anglian Daily Listen to the chief superintendent in Surrey, who says: Times. “We are determined to increase our frontline capability by recruiting…extra” The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I know that Members right across the House police constables. The fact is that all the leadership of back the hospice movement, with its hospices for adults the police is engaged in the exercise of keeping costs and for children. The Government have put extra money under control to make sure that we get more officers on into hospices, but that is a great example of the big the beat. Whether we have to divert them to protect the society, where people come together and make sure that right hon. Gentleman’s relatives, I do not know, but there is real provision to look after those who need it they are going to be on the beat. most.

Edward Miliband: Ten months, and so out of touch Q2. [45188] Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan with people up and down this country. The Prime an Iar) (SNP): The coastguard stations, our maritime Minister talks about police officers; in case he had not insurance policy, have been treated badly by the Maritime noticed, it is the Association of Chief Police Officers and Coastguard Agency, which has started threatening that says that 12,000 front-line police officers are going to close stations without carrying out any risk assessment to be lost. Why are they being lost? It is because he whatever. The proposed savings were not even highlighted chose to go beyond the recommendation by Her Majesty’s in the comprehensive spending review, and they will be inspectorate of constabulary of 12% cuts. If he had very small compared with the huge risks involved. Will made 12% cuts, the savings could have been found from the Prime Minister ensure that our coasts, islands and the back office, but he went too far and too fast, and mariners are protected by saving our stations? As the insisted on 20% cuts in policing. campaign says: SOS! 903 Oral Answers9 MARCH 2011 Oral Answers 904

The Prime Minister: I will look at this issue carefully, The Prime Minister: The truth is that Labour Members because it is being raised by Members across the House. do not like being reminded of the massive deficit and What I would say, however, is that this is not about the the huge mess that they left this Government to clear UK’s front-line rescue capability. The key changes are up. My hon. Friend makes a good point—that in spite about how the coastguard service co-ordinates services of difficult decisions, we will lift the tax threshold for and rescue missions, so the aim of the consultation is to income tax payers in April this year, and 880,000 people get the resources on the front line, to those people who will be removed from income tax altogether. That is a are actually carrying out the rescues and to those in the major step forward, a big help with the cost of living, voluntary sector who are helping. That is what the and will be welcome to families up and down the consultation is about, and I would urge the hon. Gentleman country. to engage in the process. Gloria De Piero (Ashfield) (Lab): Many parents in my constituency are worried sick because a number of Q3. [45189] Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): The alternative vote system is unfair, expensive and discredited. Even school bus services are being withdrawn, with no guarantee members of the support team for the yes side do not of an equivalent replacement—meaning that timetables, really want it. What is the Prime Minister going to do to routes and fares will be at the discretion of commercial ensure that we defeat this system, because it can produce operators. What is the Prime Minister doing to ensure distorted outcomes? that families are not subject to big fare hikes just to get their children to school? The Prime Minister: I thank my hon. Friend for his The Prime Minister: What we are doing—it was one question. I will be campaigning hard for a no vote in the of the difficult decisions we took in the spending round—is referendum. I think that it is a relatively simple argument to make sure that the per pupil funding in place is not to make. We have a system that is simple, clear and easy going down; it is being maintained. That meant taking to explain. The alternative vote is used in only three difficult decisions elsewhere in the Budget, but we took countries. They are Australia, Fiji and Papua New that decision for the good of the country’s schoolchildren. Guinea—and Fiji is beginning to change its mind. There are clear arguments, and it is a referendum, so Q5. [45191] Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): people in the coalition will be able to make those Do the Prime Minister and the Chancellor recognise different arguments. the severe impact of exceptionally high petrol and diesel prices on rural communities in England such as Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab): At Northumberland, where prices tend to be 5p to 10p a Prime Minister’s questions on 27 October, the Prime litre higher than in the cities, where people have long Minister agreed that Ministers would work with me and distances to travel to work and where public transport with our leading children’s charities on an affordable is very limited? May we hope for some relief in the alternative to the child trust fund for looked-after children. Budget? I can confirm that, since then, the Financial Secretary The Prime Minister: My right hon. Friend makes an to the Treasury and the Children’s Minister have both important point. The argument has been made about worked constructively with us on that issue. However, high fuel costs, and we are listening to it very carefully. the time has come to turn good intentions into action. He will have to wait for the Budget. I know that prices Today, Barnardo’s and Action for Children have published for heating oil are also a big issue in rural areas like the a report that sets out a compelling case for a new system ones that he and, indeed, I represent. We have asked of savings accounts for children in care. I know that the the Office of Fair Trading to look at it, but I make the Prime Minister wants to do more for such children. Will additional point that we have maintained the cold weather he read the report, then write to me to confirm that payments at £25, which has meant that something like provision for such a system will be made in the Budget? £430 million has been spent this winter on helping people with their heating bills. The Prime Minister: I will certainly read the pamphlet, if the right hon. Gentleman will leave me a copy. We are Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): However looking at whether we could replace funds, particularly serious the situation in Libya—no doubt Gaddafi is for children in care, with some form of child ISA, and I now using arms sold to him by British companies—will hope that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor will have the Prime Minister give an assurance to the House something more to say about that in the Budget. today that no military action will be taken regarding Libya without direct authorisation from the United Nations Security Council? Q4. [45190] Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): The coalition Government’s principal objective is The Prime Minister: What I discussed last night with to cut the eye-watering deficit that we inherited from President Obama is making sure that we plan for every the previous Government, yet we want to support eventuality, including planning for a no-fly zone. If that people on low and middle incomes. [Interruption.] Can becomes necessary, everyone would want it to have the the Prime Minister confirm how many people will see widest possible backing, which is why we are currently their incomes—[Interruption.] drafting a UN Security Council resolution. I think that is absolutely the right thing to do. Mr Speaker: Order. I apologise for having to interrupt. Members must be heard when asking their questions, Q7. [45193] Nigel Adams (Selby and Ainsty) (Con): It and the Prime Minister heard in answering them. It is a is no secret that council tax doubled under the last very simple principle. I think that the hon. Gentleman Government. In my constituency, both local councils— has completed his question, and we are grateful to him. Selby district and Harrogate borough council—are 905 Oral Answers9 MARCH 2011 Oral Answers 906 freezing council tax this year. Will the Prime Minister horrendous side-effects. Can the Prime Minister ensure tell me and the House how many other councils have that special withdrawal programmes are set up across chosen similarly to help hard-pressed council tax the country to give those people their lives back? I payers? understand that the Government are reviewing the situation, but the reviews keep being put back. These people are The Prime Minister: I am delighted to say that a huge victims of the system, and they are suffering all the time. number of councils have done that. I think it was right to announce a freeze in council tax, which will bring The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman has raised real help to households across the country, saving the this matter with me before. He speaks very powerfully average family up to £72 a year at a time when they face on behalf of people who have that addiction, which is difficulties with the cost of living. That compares, as my an extreme problem in our country. hon. Friend said, with a doubling of council tax under the last Government. As to whether they have learned We published a drugs strategy which set out an any lessons from that, I have to say that Labour’s ambition to reduce drug use, including the use of shadow Local Government Minister, the hon. Member prescription and over-the-counter medicines. That should for Derby North (Chris Williamson) attacked this freeze as include programmes to help people to withdraw from “nothing more than a gimmick”.—[Official Report, 17 January and come off those drugs. However, as I have said to the 2011; Vol. 521, c. 531.] hon. Gentleman before, I think that we must deal with Yet it is bringing relief to hard-pressed families up and the problem at source. That is part of the purpose of down our country and it is absolutely the right policy. our health reforms, which is to ensure that the national health service is genuinely concerned with the health of Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): Is the Prime Minister the whole person rather than being a national drugs aware of a commitment in the programme for government service in which there can sometimes be too much of the coalition Government who are taking office in prescribing of drugs. Dublin today to move to an opt-out system for organ donation? As well as whatever consideration his Mr Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con): The German Government might give to that proposal, will the Prime company Storck UK, which owns and makes Bendicks Minister undertake to work with all other Administrations chocolates in my constituency, has announced that it is in these islands through the British-Irish Council to consulting on plans that could involve production being increase the number of organ donors and to improve moved to Germany. In the area that I represent, 115 jobs networks for sourcing and sharing donor organs and depend on that factory. Will the Prime Minister ask one transplant services for people who need that life-saving of his Ministers in the relevant Department to meet me and life-changing treatment? and representatives from the company as soon as possible to establish whether we can help? The Prime Minister: I will certainly agree to do that. It is important that we try to increase the amount of organs available for donation. In the last Parliament, The Prime Minister: I will certainly do that. My hon. there was a debate about whether we should move Friend is right to speak up for his constituency and for formally to an opt-out system, and there are difficulties that business. Through the growth review—we will confirm with that, but there is a huge gap between where we are this in the Budget—we are taking steps to ensure that now and a formal opt-out system, in encouraging patients this country is the best place in Europe in which to do and talking to them about what can be done. I am sure business. We have set out plans for the lowest rate of that we can make steps forward, and my right hon. corporation tax anywhere in the G7, but we will also Friend the Health Secretary will do that. take further steps to ensure that we encourage companies to stay here, come here and invest here. Q8. [45194] Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): Mr Speaker, 373,000 Daily Express readers want it, Q10. [45196] Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) 80% of Conservative Members support it, the Deputy (Lab): The Prime Minister is beefing up his office to Prime Minister would love it, and my wife demands it. help sell the Government’s unpopular and wasteful The British people, Conservative supporters, the leader £2 billion reorganisation of the NHS. Does it concern of the Liberal party and especially Mrs Bone cannot all him that Baroness Williams of Crosby feels that she is be wrong. Prime Minister: may we have a referendum on whether the United Kingdom should remain in the “under no obligation to support policies outside the agreement”? European Union? The Prime Minister’s Back Benchers do not want this; no one wants it. Is it not possible for the Prime Minister The Prime Minister: I wish that my wife were as easy to halt— to please. I was worried about where that question was going. Mr Speaker: Order. We have got the drift, but we I am afraid that I must disappoint my hon. Friend must have an answer. and Mrs Bone. I think that we are better off inside the EU but making changes to it, in the way that we are The Prime Minister: The questions drafted by Labour setting out. Members have got a bit longer. I think that those in the Q9. [45195] Jim Dobbin (Heywood and Middleton) (Lab/ Labour Whips Office need to go to remedial writing Co-op): There are 1.5 million individuals throughout school. the United Kingdom who suffer from involuntary If the hon. Gentleman was asking a question about tranquilliser addiction, which is not a misuse of drugs the NHS—as I think he was—and asking who supports by the individual but prescription addiction. It has the NHS reforms, let me say this. I think that one of the 907 Oral Answers9 MARCH 2011 Oral Answers 908 greatest proponents of the NHS reforms is Labour’s economy, which for too long was dependent on government, shadow Health Secretary, the right hon. Member for housing, finance and, frankly, on immigration as well. Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey), who has said: We need an economy that is based more on manufacturing, “The general aims of reform are sound—greater role for technology, exports, enterprise and small business. It is clinicians in commissioning care, more involvement of patients, going to be difficult, but there are good signs that the less bureaucracy and greater priority on improving health outcomes— private sector economy is growing, and growing well. and are common ground between patients, health professions and political parties.” Q13. [45199] Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne If life gets too tough for the right hon. Gentleman on North) (Lab): Last year, Newcastle citizens advice the Opposition Front Bench, there is always plenty of bureau dealt with more than 26,000 cases, supported room over here. by 75 volunteers, yet its budget has been slashed and there is no clarity from Lib Dem Newcastle city council Q11. [45197] Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): This month, on funding from the end of this month. How can this soldiers from 3 Mercian (Staffords), including many shambolic situation possibly contribute towards the big from my constituency, are being deployed to Afghanistan, society? and our thoughts and prayers are with them. Will the Prime Minister ensure that if our brave soldiers are The Prime Minister: The Government have made injured while serving our country, they will receive sure that the national funding for the CAB debt service compensation that recognises their sacrifice? has been maintained, and that is a vital part of it. I urge all local councils, whoever controls them—I have had The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes a very this conversation with my own council—to make sure important point. The bravery of our servicemen and we do as much as we can to support CABs, which do women, who are often deploying to Afghanistan for the such a vital job in our communities. third or fourth time now, should be uppermost in our thoughts. I think the whole House can unite on that, Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con): I am and on the results of the review of the armed forces sure all Members agree that one of the most important compensation scheme carried out by Admiral Boyce. jobs we perform every year is to represent people who That will lead to significant increases in the value of have lost their lives in war on Remembrance Sunday. It awards—on average in excess of 25% to all lump sum is certainly something I do with great pride in my payments, except for the top award which was recently constituency. With that in mind, does the Prime Minister doubled to £570,000. We are also trebling the maximum think a £50 fine is an appropriate punishment for those award for mental illness to £140,000. We can never who burn poppies and chant during the silence? compensate people for their injuries in battle, either physical or mental, but we can, as a generous, tolerant, The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend will have spoken warm and welcoming nation to our armed forces, do so for many people in their reaction to that court case. It is much more, and I am glad that we are doing this. difficult unless we are sitting in the court and making that decision ourselves, but many of us look at such Q12. [45198] Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab): cases and feel that as a country we should be making a Does the Prime Minister appreciate that the 1,500 stronger statement that that sort of behaviour is completely women in Newport who are now going to have to work out of order and has no place in a tolerant society. for up to two years longer because the Government have accelerated the introduction of the increase in the Q14. [45200] Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) state pension age feel very angry that they are not being (Lab): May I take the Prime Minister back to the given long enough to plan properly for a delayed question on AV, and ask him to look at early-day retirement? motion 1550 tabled yesterday, which challenges the funding from the Electoral Reform Society? As, like The Prime Minister: I know this is a difficult reform, but me, he is a firm supporter of first past the post, will he as well as dealing with the short-term problems of our look at that and write to me afterwards to tell me that deficit and making spending reductions across Government there will be an investigation? programmes—which, frankly, any Government would have to do right now—it is also right to try to make The Prime Minister: I have to admit that I have not some long-term changes to reduce the long-term costs got round to early-day motion 1550, but it sounds like I of our pension system, and as life expectancy is increasing, should do so. We have been looking for all these years I think it is right to ask people to retire later. This is a for something for the hon. Gentleman and I to agree difficult and long-term decision, but I think the arguments about, and it is a delight to have this issue. I think some for it are absolutely right. people will be surprised to find that what they thought was an organisation running elections is funding a Ms Louise Bagshawe (Corby) (Con): Will my right campaign, but in the interests of coalition unity, I will hon. Friend join me in welcoming the good news on leave it at that. jobs announced this morning by KPMG: that February saw the fastest rate of permanent positions being filled James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con): for 10 months and that those jobs came from the private I recently met a number of manufacturing businesses in sector? Cradley Heath in my constituency. Does the Prime Minister agree that the Government must do all they The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is right to draw can to support manufacturing, particularly in areas attention to that as well as the trade figures. We are such as the black country, to drive private sector jobs engaged in a very difficult operation to rebalance the growth? 909 Oral Answers9 MARCH 2011 Oral Answers 910

The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely which will raise more in every year than Labour’s bonus right. As I have said, we need a rebalancing of the tax raised in one year. We are getting money out of the economy whereby we see more technology, more aerospace, banks into the Treasury. We are seeing the bonus pools more manufacturing and a greater emphasis on such come down and bank lending go up. None of those things. We are seeing recent figures showing good strong things happened under the last Government. growth—up to 5% a year—in manufacturing output and even stronger figures for manufacturing export. What Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con): The the Government can do to encourage that is ensure that law courts have agreed with Basildon council that the we are delivering what manufacturing businesses want: illegal Dale Farm Travellers’ site should be cleared, but less regulation, lower taxes and a real boost in because the previous Government stopped the council apprenticeships, which this Government are providing—an taking action, the site has mushroomed in size. Would extra 75,000 apprenticeships over and above what Labour the Prime Minister meet me to discuss the case to planned. ensure that justice is done?

Q15. [45201] Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend has persistently (Lab): Does the Prime Minister agree that the bankers raised this case and this issue in the Commons. I know do a bad job in lending to small businesses and the real he speaks for many people about the sense of unfairness economy and that the police do a good job in helping that one law applies to everybody else and, on too many to cut crime? Can he explain, therefore, why he is occasions, another law applies to Travellers. What I will cutting police pay while letting the bankers walk away do is arrange a meeting between him and the Secretary with millions? of State for Communities and Local Government so that they can look at what more can be done to ensure The Prime Minister: What we are doing is introducing that we have real, genuine fairness for all communities a £2.5 billion levy on the banks each and every year, in our country. 911 9 MARCH 2011 Points of Order 912

Points of Order Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab): Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. I thank the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) for 12.31 pm giving me notice of his intention to raise his point of Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) order. I do not want to go into the difficulties of (SNP): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. On yesterday’s scheduling business, but I want to say that the Committee Order Paper, a debate was scheduled on coastguards, absolutely emphatically recognises the importance of one of two debates that I had planned to speak in— the coastguards debate. Far from cancelling it, we rescheduled it in order to protect the full three hours of debate that it so clearly deserves. However, the notice Mr Speaker: Order. Before the hon. Gentleman completes given was very short, and I apologise for that, and I his point of order, may I appeal to hon. and right hon. deeply regret any inconvenience that this rescheduling Members who are leaving the Chamber to do so quickly has caused to any Member of the House. Parliamentary and quietly so that we can proceed with subsequent business changes at a moment’s notice, but I do regret business, including the point of order. any inconvenience caused to the hon. Gentleman.

Mr MacNeil: On yesterday’s Order Paper a debate Several hon. Members rose— was scheduled on coastguards, one of two debates that I planned to speak in tomorrow. Today, it is not on the Order Paper. I found out about the change yesterday in Mr Speaker: Order. I see other members of the a series of Chinese whispers and I was livid, Mr Speaker. Backbench Business Committee bidding to catch my I have not heard of a debate being changed at 48 hours’ eye. I just said that I am not going to have a protracted notice. Coastguards are dismayed that the bread and exchange on this; that would not be right or a proper butter issue of jobs is being overlooked in this House. use of the time of the House. I think I can say, and will Coastguards have been badly treated by the Committee, command general assent for this proposition, that we which is an alleged Back-Bench Committee, made up of have had a very clear and gracious response from the Conservative, Liberal and Labour Members who have Chair of the Backbench Business Committee. Other utterly dismayed me in their treatment of the coastguards. Members may agree with it or they may disagree with it; The named Backbench Business Committee is utterly such is the stuff of democracy. But a point of order was wrong. It has made this change on a whim, Mr Speaker— very properly raised by the hon. Gentleman; I have responded to it; the hon. Lady has said her piece. It is not a continuing debate. The position is clear, and that Mr Speaker: Order. I have got the point. First, on a is the end of the matter. point of fact, people can raise points of order and with those points of order I will deal, but we are not referring Mr MacNeil rose— to the work of an alleged Back-Bench Committee. The Backbench Business Committee is established, it is functioning in an orderly way and it is chaired extremely Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP) rose— assiduously and conscientiously. I will not have aspersions cast on the work of the Committee. I will not have that Mr Speaker: If, on an unrelated point of order, in this Chamber. Mr Jim Shannon wishes— On the point of order, let me simply say to the hon. Gentleman that I am grateful to him for giving me Mr MacNeil: Come on! notice and I understand his extremely strong feeling on this matter on behalf of his constituents and on behalf Mr Speaker: Order. I have made the position very of others as well. I understand that the coastguards clear. It is no good the hon. Gentleman shaking his debate is now scheduled for a three-hour debate on head. He asked his question, in order, he raised the Thursday 24 March— point of order and I have responded to it. There has been a further come-back on the point of order. I think Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP): That is too late. most Members of the House would accept that the matter has been properly aired in the Chamber this afternoon. Mr Speaker: Order. The leader of the Scottish National party must not chunter at the Chair from a sedentary On an unrelated point of order, Mr Jim Shannon. position in that way. It is very uncharacteristic of him and quite unnecessary. That three-hour debate will take Jim Shannon: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. First, place in Westminster Hall. As the House knows—the I thank the hon. Member for North East Derbyshire hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil), (Natascha Engel) for her response; I understand that. who is an experienced Member, can certainly not claim On the procedure, given that the coastguards issue was to be unaware of this—the order of business is not to be debated, and that it was on the annunciator at 10 determined by the Chair. The hon. Gentleman is free to am this morning, is it in order for the business listed in raise the matter with the Backbench Business Committee Tuesday’s Order Paper— if he wishes. The Chair of the Committee is in her place, and although I will not have a whole series of exchanges Mr Speaker: Order. I am sorry; I do not wish to be on this—that would not be right—if the hon. Member unkind. The hon. Gentleman is an extremely assiduous for North East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel), who chairs new Member. I very clearly said, “On an unrelated the Committee, wishes to respond to the point of order point of order.” We are not continuing this exchange. and to offer explanation or clarification to the House, So, nice try, but I am afraid it is not in order. I shall take she is perfectly welcome to do so. any unrelated points of order. 913 Points of Order9 MARCH 2011 Points of Order 914

Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ Mr Ian Davidson (Glasgow South West) (Lab/Co-op): Co-op): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. On Channel 4 On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Yesterday, I apologised news yesterday evening, the Secretary of State for Energy to the House and I wish to make a further apology. and Climate Change described 50 kW as “an enormous Yesterday, I apologised for suggesting that the reason amount of power. That’s the equivalent of 1,500 domestic why the Liberals had come sixth was because the nationalists roofs.” That is just plain wrong, and either this is and the— startling incompetence by the Government or they have based their review of solar feed-in tariffs on a completely Mr Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman must resume false premise. The review is already causing uncertainty; his seat. I listened very carefully to what he said yesterday. these comments make it worse. I wonder, Mr Speaker, He is very dexterous in his use of parliamentary language whether you can use your good offices to ensure that the and he has a great sense of humour, but what he must Secretary of State clarifies the Government’s position not do—I say this in all seriousness—is abuse the point to this House and to the public as quickly as possible. of order procedure to make apologies that transpire to be nothing of the kind and are really carefully crafted Mr Speaker: As the hon. Lady knows—and as far as partisan points which suit his book. I cannot believe I am concerned, this is very fortunate—the content of that he would ordinarily want to do that, but I think he ministerial statements or answers is not a matter for the was planning to do it today and I cannot allow him to Chair. If a Minister has made an incorrect statement, continue with it. there is a procedure for setting the record straight, and that will be well known to all members of the Treasury Bench. Meanwhile, the hon. Lady has put her concerns Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance): On a point of and her interpretation of the facts very clearly on the order, Mr Speaker. On two occasions during Prime record, and that statement and interpretation will have Minister’s Question Time—both this week and in previous been heard by Ministers. weeks—the Prime Minister has asserted that money that is going to be released by reform of the coastguard Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): On a point of service will be redirected into front-line rescue missions. order, Mr Speaker. There is a matter that is causing However, this is actually done by charitable organisations great concern within the country, but on which the such as the Royal National Lifeboat Institution, and it Government are silent in this House: the alleged conduct is unclear as to how the transfer will take place. Would of certain official representatives of this country who it be in order to request that the Minister responsible are cultivating friendships with some of the emergent provides either a written or oral statement to the House tyrannies in the world, including Azerbaijan. Should we to clarify the link between the two? not also be debating in this House whether we choose our trade representatives on the principle of inheritance? Mr Speaker: The decision on whether to make a statement is a matter for the Government, as is the form Mr Speaker: There is every opportunity for the hon. that the statement takes. Otherwise, my earlier remarks Gentleman to raise this matter at business questions about the procedure for correcting ministerial inaccuracies tomorrow, and he may well choose to do so. I have got a apply to the hon. Lady’s point of order. feeling that he will be hot-footing it to the salon, as the Leader of the House describes it, of the hon. Member If there are no further points of order, we will move for North East Derbyshire, who chairs the Backbench on to the ten-minute rule motion, for which the hon. Business Committee, because I think the hon. Gentleman Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) has been will probably be pursuing a debate on this matter in that patiently waiting. Committee’s time. 915 9 MARCH 2011 Tied Public Houses (Code of 916 Practice) Tied Public Houses (Code of Practice) The reasons given for the decline are many, and I acknowledge that they are not restricted to the tied Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order public houses which are the subject of this Bill. Such No. 23) reasons include everything from happy hours to economic 12.41 pm downturn, supermarkets and lifestyle changes. Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): I beg to move, In 2004, the Federation of Small Businesses was so That leave be given to bring in a Bill to require the Secretary of concerned about a particular issue that it asked the then State to introduce a statutory code of practice to require certain Select Committee on Trade and Industry to investigate. pub owning companies to provide their tied lessees with a guest That issue was the profoundly unequal relationship beer option and the option to become free of tie accompanied by between tenant and lessee landlords and the big new an open market rent review; and for connected purposes. pub companies, or pubcos. At the heart of this relationship I should straight away express my appreciation for is the tie—a strange addition to the normal landlord the support that this Bill has received from hon. Members and tenant business relationship that applies to short-term on the Liberal Democrat, Labour and Conservative tenants and long-term lessees. In what should be a Benches; the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar relationship of mutual benefit, tenants and lessees have (Mr MacNeil); the right hon. Member for Dwyfor to pay a premium of 40% or more on the open-market Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd); the hon. Member for Brighton, rate for beer. I have seen invoices side by side for the Pavilion (Caroline Lucas); the Campaign for Real Ale; same quantity of the same beer to support this contention. the Federation of Small Businesses; and the all-party Those tenants and lessees also have to pay rent based save the pub group. I am grateful for all their support. not on the normal calculations of square footage but on In bringing the subject of beer and pubs before this the rather obscure and highly subjective judgment of House, I stand in a fine Cheltenham tradition: my the pub company of estimated earnings of a reasonably Liberal Democrat predecessor, Nigel Jones, now Lord efficient operator. In other words, the pub company Jones of Cheltenham, was chair of the all-party group calculates the maximum amount it can extract from the on beer; his Conservative predecessor. Sir Charles Irving, business and charges it. In return, publicans get apparently was himself a licensee; and the longest-serving Member valuable business and marketing support from the pubco. for Cheltenham, another Conservative, the right hon. That first Select Committee inquiry rang alarm bells Sir James Agg-Gardner, was a local brewer. In 1848, the about the state of the industry but was pretty gentle on very first MP for Cheltenham, a great Liberal, the hon. the tie itself, weighing up the benefits and costs for Craven Berkeley, risked the wrath of the religious lobby publicans. Self-regulation appeared to be the name of in the town by trying to delete the fixed opening hours the game and the Committee shied away from for pubs on Sundays from the Sale of Beer Bill. All of recommending a legally binding code of practice although them shared an appreciation of the very special and it did say that much-loved role that pubs play in our national life. As Lord Jones has said, “Government should not hesitate to impose a statutory code” “a pub does not just sell beer. It is a social centre, providing meals if matters did not improve. The follow-up report in and snacks, raising money for local charities and diversifying 2008 by the Select Committee on Business and Enterprise offerings all the time.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 11 December was much more damning and included its own 2008; Vol. 706, c. 559.] commissioned research into the state of lessees’ businesses. He might have added that pubs are places where national The research found that 78% of lessees were dissatisfied sports are watched in good company and local sports with the tie, that 67% were earning less than £15,000 a teams are formed—indeed, hugely popular skittles leagues year and that 50% were earning less than that even operate almost nowhere else. when their pubs were turning over more than £500,000 The pub is the hub scheme, another one of those a year. The majority believed that the tie with the pubco inspired initiatives for which His Royal Highness the did not add value to their business. The Committee Prince of Wales gets insufficient credit, has shown that, concluded: imaginatively used, pubs can provide a location for “The imbalance of bargaining power persists” community shops, post offices and even youth centres. Of course, perhaps most importantly of all, they provide between pubco and publican. It went on: a social drinking environment, open to families and “The arrangements for assessing rents remain opaque…Rental pensioners, and to new drinkers and old regulars. Pubs assessment should be the basis for negotiation, but incumbent are personal enough to exert peer group pressure on lessees often risk loss of their home as well as their business if those who might be tempted to drink irresponsibly and they cannot reach agreement.” people who really have had too much are refused another This time, the Committee concluded that it had in them, as they should be everywhere. “no confidence that the advantages of the tie outweigh its drawbacks.” The British pub is a unique institution—it is a product of history that would be very difficult to recreate if we Another follow-up report by Select Committee on ever lost it. But we are losing our pubs, at the rate of as Business, Innovation and Skills in the following year many as 40 a week; we are losing thousands a year. The reviewed the new British Beer and Pub Association list of lost pubs in Cheltenham includes the Greyhound, framework code of practice and concluded that it the Cat and Fiddle, the Bass House, the Duke of York represented only “modest progress” and that the issues and four others since just 2007. Whole communities, surrounding the tie had not been resolved. The Committee such as Whaddon in my constituency, are now without suggested a deadline of June 2011 for self-regulation to any local pub. Even where the pub does not close, many give way to statutory regulation. Its message to the publicans are finding it harder and harder to make ends pubco industry was clear: meet, and many go bust only to be replaced by a rapid “If it fails to deliver on its promises by June 2011, it should be succession of new tenants or lessees. in no doubt what the reaction will be.” 917 Tied Public Houses (Code of 9 MARCH 2011 Tied Public Houses (Code of 918 Practice) Practice) Well, June 2011 is not far away and I can tell the House The real support that the pubco provides, outside the that new FSB research still paints a gloomy picture. rather opaque area of the rent, is in marketing and According to its preliminary findings, 91% of its tied advice on the product mix, legal compliance and cash-flow pub members do not think the tie allows them to make and financial management. That is helpfully explained a fair profit. More than 85% believe it prevents them in one of the codes of practice: it is given face-to-face, from competing effectively in the marketplace and the typically for one and half hours, once every 12 weeks. same number would like to be free of the tie. One FSB That adds up to less than one working day of face-to-face member told researchers: business support a year, in exchange for which the “Enterprise Inns are happy for any tenant to fail. They would pubco could extract between £15,000 and £20,000 of sell a pub and land for top market value and only then reinvest in value from lessees’ businesses. other property to suit. They are, after all, property and It is difficult to escape the conclusion that unless land developers”. Parliament steps in, we will see those pubcos manage That might be harsh but there is a serious breakdown in even more traditional British pubs into oblivion. The the relationship between the pubcos and their tenants Bill does not ban or abolish the tie, but it does aim to and lessees, whose businesses continue to fail at an replace the codes of practice with a statutory one, as alarming rate while we continue to lose pubs at the recommended by the Select Committee, and almost in heart of many communities. time for its deadline, along with a guest beer option and A quick glance at the latest BBPA framework code of the option for lessees to relinquish the tie in a process practice and the codes of practice used by the two leading that is fair and transparent to both parties. My illustrious pubcos, Enterprise Inns and Punch Taverns, highlight and sociable predecessors would be proud of us if we the inequality of the situation. Potential tenants and saved the pub that they all enjoyed, and future generations lessees are given a terrifying list of responsibilities. They will thank us if we help to save the traditional British are urged to engage solicitors, get structural surveys, pub for them to enjoy as well. I hope the Bill will help us talk to the police, environmental health and other to do just that, and I commend it to the House. appropriate authorities, check if a Highways Act licence Question put and agreed to. is in place, engage their own qualified accountants and Ordered, stocktakers, apply for their own gaming licences, obtain an asbestos survey, a full electrical report and a gas That Martin Horwood, Greg Mulholland, Tony safety certificate, and so on—all at their own expense. Cunningham, Neil Carmichael, Mr Angus Brendan The pubco helpfully offers training in food safety, health MacNeil, Mr Elfyn Llwyd, Caroline Lucas, Stephen and hygiene, drug awareness, first aid and door Metcalfe, Lisa Nandy, Lorely Burt, Stephen Williams management, along with repairs, maintenance and and Jackie Doyle-Price present the Bill. insurance—but also at the publicans’ expense. Indeed, Martin Horwood accordingly presented the Bill. publicans are not allowed to get insurance from anywhere Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on else. Friday 10 June, and to be printed (Bill 160). 919 9 MARCH 2011 Welfare Reform Bill 920

Welfare Reform Bill right thing to do—to look at the 1.5 million people on incapacity benefit and check them over. We did not [Relevant documents: The oral evidence taken on 26 January inherit any real allowance for cancer sufferers. It is and 9 February 2011 by the Work and Pensions Committee important to make this clear. The Employment Minister, on the White Paper on Universal Credit, and the written my right hon. Friend the Member for Epsom and Ewell evidence received, HC 743.] (Chris Grayling), immediately accepted the internal reviews, but went further. He asked Professor Harrington Mr Speaker: I have selected the amendment in the to conduct a review of what we did regarding cancer name of the Leader of the Opposition. patients and others, and the hon. Gentleman, being a generous individual, will know that we then incorporated 12.52 pm a big change, so that a person in cancer treatment— chemotherapy—who is between treatments will go straight The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain on to the support element. Thus the contributory aspect Duncan Smith): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read will not affect them, because while they are on the a Second time. support element they will continue to be supported The Bill before us today covers a number of areas, when they are out of work. but I hope that it sets a new course for the welfare state. I believe it will enable us to reach out to some of the rose— groups of people who have become detached from the Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab) rest of society—trapped, too often, in a permanent state of worklessness and dependency. For the sake of Mr Duncan Smith: One second. Would the hon. Lady the House, I will go through the relevant clauses of the forgive me? I have been asked to answer a question and Bill. I am sure that colleagues on both sides of the I shall try to answer it. We have already made some very House will want to intervene. I hope they will recognise substantial change to support people in cancer treatment. that we shall get to most of the clauses that they want to The concerns of Macmillan and others relate to oral discuss, but I will take interventions as and when they chemotherapy. I understand that. We have already asked come. Professor Harrington, in his second review, to undertake The problem is that although from 1992 to 2008 this to give some advice on that. We have a slight problem country saw some 63 consecutive quarters of growth, with that from the start, because it is a fairly new form and 4 million more people were in employment by the of treatment and a limited number of people are on it. end of that period, before the recession had even started So far, much of the medical evidence suggests that it we still had some 4 million-plus people on out-of-work does not affect people in the way that intravenous benefits. The question is: where did all those jobs go? chemotherapy does; it is not as debilitating. We remain Under the previous Government, over half of the jobs open to that evidence. created went to foreign nationals. This is not an immigration Although there is no provision for oral chemotherapy point; it is a point about supply and demand. There right now, my right hon. Friend the Employment Minister were a group of people in this country completely has made it clear that Professor Harrington will review unable, it appears, to take advantage of that long period the subject and take evidence, and we have asked the of growth and job creation. In essence, the key point cancer groups to offer up their thoughts and advice, in about the Welfare Reform Bill is that it is intended to addition to the medical fraternity. We will take account help that group. of what Professor Harrington says. As the hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve McCabe) knows, last Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): I am time we adopted all the recommendations in the professor’s grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving way so report in their totality. So we are not in the business of early. I wondered whether, at the outset, he would like trying to harm or affect cancer patients; quite the to comment on the reports in today’s Telegraph that the contrary. We made some very serious changes to what cancer charities are warning that his proposals for we inherited from the previous Government—I would employment and support allowance will penalise those like to think that they would have done the same—and who do not recover soon enough. How could anyone we will continue to do so. I hope that answers the hon. think that that is a fair approach, in a Bill like this? Gentleman’s question. If he will let me get on with the rest of the Bill, I will. Mr Duncan Smith: I think the report was in The Guardian. I do not know whether it is in The Daily Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance): Will the right Telegraph. hon. Gentleman give way on that point? Steve McCabe: The Telegraph too—you’re famous. Mr Duncan Smith: I would like to make a bit of Mr Duncan Smith: I read The Guardian; he reads the progress, if the hon. Lady does not mind. I think I have Telegraph. What can I say? Times really are changing. been pretty generous on that aspect. I will return to it. I have read the report, and I think that a number of The key is that I hope the Bill in general—we shall get elements in it are simply not altogether correct. I say to the more specific elements later—represents a whole that rather carefully because the point about the cancer new concept: a contract with people who are in need of aspect is that, as the hon. Gentleman knows, we inherited support. For those who are able to work, work should from the previous Government a process of reform and pay, and for the most vulnerable in society we will change to the employment and support allowance, which continue to provide the support that that they need. I included the work capability assessment. We supported think it is our duty to do so. We can debate the levels of that, with the previous Government, because it was the that support, but it is our duty none the less. 921 Welfare Reform Bill9 MARCH 2011 Welfare Reform Bill 922

The Bill says to the taxpayer, “Your hard-earned and on benefits should not be receiving more than money must be spent responsibly.”We sometimes forget, average earnings. It is a matter of fairness, so that those in our debates on welfare, that the taxpayer is also a who are working hard and paying their taxes do not feel player in this, because taxpayers—many of them on low that someone else will benefit more by not playing a full and marginal incomes—are constantly being asked to part in society. We recognise that there must be transitional pay in taxes towards support for others. That is fair, but arrangements. We will work intensively with the families we have a responsibility to ensure that taxpayers too are affected once the cap comes in. We will help them move properly supported. I shall now outline some of the into work, to change their circumstances so that they principles of the Bill, and then I will try to get through are not affected. We will make sure that families who the various clauses. need transitional support will receive it. We will make more detailed statements about that later. Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): Will the The idea is that we should encourage people back right hon. Gentleman give way? into work, and most of all that people who are in work Mr Duncan Smith: Forgive me; I want to make progress and paying their taxes should feel that it is fair that before I take more interventions, but I certainly will not while they earn and they work hard, others realise that shy away from interventions. the best way to increase their income is through work, not through benefits. That is a great principle. I note the comments by my opposite number, the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill Mr Slaughter: According to the right hon. Gentleman’s (Mr Byrne), that his party agrees with more than Department, 70% of those affected by the benefit cap “three quarters of the principled and burden-sharing” live in social housing. The Housing Minister is building changes that the Government are making. Obviously, in only unaffordable housing, because of the rent levels his interventions he will make clear what he does not set. Is not the cap just a crude piece of social engineering, agree with. I have read his amendment and there will be forcing people not to live in expensive areas, such as the some questions about some of that; I am sure we will constituency that I represent? Is it not directed at vulnerable get to that in a minute. people and the poorest in society, making it possible for I intend to take the House through the Bill stage by them to live only where the Secretary of State chooses stage. Let me start with universal credit. I shall begin for them to live? with an overview, and then consider some of its detailed aspects. The universal credit obviously sits at the heart Mr Duncan Smith: With respect to the hon. Gentleman, of this welfare reform. I do not think I would want to it is not about where I choose for them to live. As with embark on this process if that were not the case. I everybody else, it is about where their income and their believe it is a commitment to the public that work will ability to earn allow them to live. There are many always and must always be made to pay, particularly people in London, for example, who work hard and critically for that group of people who are probably the who commute well over an hour to get to jobs because most affected—the bottom two deciles of society—who they cannot afford to live in parts of central London. have too often found it really difficult to establish that We may argue that the cost of living in London is too work does pay. high. One of the arguments that I would make is that I am pleased to say that those principles seem to have the way that the previous Government’s local housing received support from a number of stakeholders, including allowance was set drove up rents in both the private and Citizens Advice and the Institute for Fiscal Studies. The the social housing sector. The hon. Gentleman should IFS said that by and large the measure was a progressive consider that what we are doing is reasonable. What we change. We anticipate that the universal credit will are trying to do is not to damage people, but to get them make some 2.7 million households better off. Over in locations where they can afford both to live and to 1 million households will be better off by more than work. I will return to that. £25 a week—clearly, those will be down in the bottom Several hon. Members rose— deciles—and 85% of that increase will go to households in the bottom 40% of the income distribution. Mr Duncan Smith: I shall make a little more progress. We have agreed a package of transitional protection May I confirm that we shall move from the universal which will ensure that there are no cash losers as a direct credit making inroads into the couple penalty to a result of the migration to universal credit, where subject on which I am sure many right hon. and hon. circumstances remain the same. The universal credit Members will want to speak—child care costs in universal should also start making inroads into the couple penalty. credit? I can confirm that support for child care costs Members on both sides of the House agree that that is will be provided by an additional element paid as part necessary. I know that the right hon. Member for of the universal credit award. We will invest at least the Birkenhead (Mr Field), who is in his place, has made same amount of money in child care as in the current great play of that over the years, and many of us have system, and we will aim to provide some support for agreed with him. those making their first moves into work, so that the Mr David Evennett (Bexleyheath and Crayford) (Con): support available is not restricted to those working I am listening with great interest to my right hon. more than 16 hours. Friend’s speech. Can he give me some further detail on This is an important point. Although there is a how the benefit cap will be introduced? debate about it, we must remember that working tax credit gives that child care support to those in the Mr Duncan Smith: I was coming to that, but I shall relevant band. Universal credit will allow claimants to touch on it now; I may make some further comments adjust their hours of work to suit their child care later. The principle is that people who are unemployed responsibilities. It will allow people to set their hours of 923 Welfare Reform Bill9 MARCH 2011 Welfare Reform Bill 924

[Mr Duncan Smith] Mr Duncan Smith: The sanctions regime is about work being available. If work is not available, people work more in line with their caring responsibilities. It cannot be expected to take jobs, so I give the hon. will cover all the hours that people are planning to Gentleman the assurance that no one will be told that work. We will be much more flexible, and we intend to they are on sanctions if there is no work available. The work closely with relevant groups to take further advice sanctions apply only if a job is available, the claimant about the rates that we will set. By the time the Bill has been offered it and for one reason or another has reaches its Committee stage, we will be able to be more not taken it, or if they are not complying with the specific. details of what they are meant to be doing to seek work. That is only fair. People who pay their taxes want to Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): Can the know that everybody out there is seeking work. If they right hon. Gentleman confirm that as a result of that are seeking work sanctions should hardly ever apply, further consideration, there will be no circumstances in and in most cases they will not apply. which, as a result of child care costs, a parent could be faced with a marginal deduction rate of more than 100%, as some models prepared for us by Family Action Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): The have suggested? right hon. Gentleman is making a thoughtful speech, and I know him to be a thoughtful and caring politician. Mr Duncan Smith: That is not our intention, and it is I will give careful consideration to much of the Bill and why we were are proceeding carefully and consulting I will not vote against Second Reading. Is it not spoilt, about our proposals. The purpose is to maintain incentives however, by what is happening to the mobility component to go to work. Universal credit is designed to encourage of disability living allowance? I visited a residential lone parents to go to work, but it recognises their need home in Huddersfield, in Edgerton, only last week. The to meet their child care responsibilities. We can debate Bill will destroy the lives of most of those people, 60% the various elements, but the principle is that the measure of whom are in wheelchairs. should be more than helpful to them. We will move on to the finer detail as we get to Committee stage. Mr Duncan Smith: I thank the right hon. Gentleman— As we increase support to make work pay, it is right although I am not sure: is he a right hon. Gentleman? to ensure that claimants do everything they reasonably [Interruption.] An hon. Gentleman—okay. That is can to find or prepare for work. As the House knows, something that his party should do—it is not for me—given we will tailor conditionality to individual circumstances, his record of service. and require all claimants to accept what I call a claimant Yes, I accept that there were issues. In fact, when we commitment. From the outset they will be asked to sign looked at the decisions taken at the time of the spending up to the idea that we will provide them with the review, I reviewed the matter, after discussing it with the necessary support and access to universal credit, but we Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, my will also expect them to recognise that the sanctions hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke (Maria Miller), regime is applicable. It is easy to understand. If they do who is the Minister responsible for these matters. We not comply with that as they go further through the visited lots of care homes—my hon. Friend went out to process, they are likely to encounter that sanctions see people and talk to them—and we realised that there regime at key moments. was a lot of chaos out there about what should be given The toughest sanctions will apply to those who are to people in care homes, what care homes themselves expected to be seeking work but fail to meet important provide, and what local authorities believe it is their conditions. They should understand that if they keep statutory responsibility to provide. Some of them say on crossing a series of lines, they will invoke the sanctions that they do not have any such responsibility to provide regime. The problem at present is that the regime is mobility services, but others say that they do, and often confusing. I have visited jobcentres a number of provide access to such services. times—and I see on the Opposition Benches one of the We have therefore changed the provisions in the Bill, Members who used to be a Minister in the Department. as the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman) As he knows, if one talks to jobcentre staff, they will say has probably noticed. That will be incorporated in the that the problem is that when claimants reach the point review of disability living allowance. Our objective is to where they are about to hit sanctions, it comes as a big get rid of the overlaps, genuinely to find out what can be surprise to many of them that sanctions will be imposed provided at local level, and to figure out what the and that the situation is real and serious. amount should be to support someone in a care home, By letting claimants know much earlier and by bearing in mind that mobility needs in a care home are introducing a regime that is easy to understand, with a likely to be variable, and different from the needs of simple tripwire process, they will know from the word someone living in the community completely independently. go. That should disincentivise people from taking the Adjustments will be necessary, but my hon. Friend and wrong turns. Benefits will be taken away for three I give the hon. Gentleman and the House an undertaking months after a first failure, six months after a second, that we are going to try to figure out what the right and three years after a third. That will apply to those at answer is. We will work out a set of figures, and how the top level—in other words, those who are fully able they can be applied. That is the purpose of the review; I to search actively for work and to take it. There are, guarantee that. however, other categories. The same conditions would not apply to lone parents, for example. Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC): The rate of worklessness (Lab): Reflecting on what the Secretary of State has just and the availability of jobs vary from area to area. What said, does he recall that on several occasions, the Prime account will the sanctions regime take of that variation? Minister has been given the opportunity to say that he 925 Welfare Reform Bill9 MARCH 2011 Welfare Reform Bill 926 has listened to the evidence and accepts that there is he was talking about two years. However, that is not virtually no support for withdrawing the mobility clear in the amendment to the motion, so I wonder component of disability living allowance for people whether he could clarify the position. The amendment living in residential accommodation? To what extent opposes the limit altogether, rather than the number of does the Secretary of State’s position differ from the years. I would happy to accept an intervention from the position taken again and again by the Prime Minister? right hon. Gentleman if he wished to clarify the position. [Interruption.] He will cover it in his speech—very Mr Duncan Smith: We are as one. I say that immediately, good. I hope that we will understand that, as principles before I explain the position. and practicalities need to come together. The reality, for the Prime Minister and for me, is that I would point out to the right hon. Gentleman and to when we understand that certain facts are slightly different everyone else that the one-year limit is twice as long as from what we thought they might have been, we always that currently in place for jobseeker’s allowance. There modify what we are doing to make sure that the effect of has been discussion of people undergoing cancer treatment what we are trying to do is reasonable and produces the and others. That is best dealt with under the ESA best results. All I can say to the right hon. Gentleman is regime and reviews, so that we can decide which groups that the Bill is not the same as the one that he would are relevant, and which not, as we have done with some have seen some weeks ago. We are not knocking out the cancer patients undergoing chemotherapy. They have mobility component from care homes, and we have been taken out of that provision because they are in the included it in the review of what mobility provisions are support group. Professor Harrington’s review is the best necessary and required for people in care homes. That is way of doing that. We have established the principle of the real principle behind the measure. My previous receipt for a year, and the rest is about the details of the comments were about finding the overlaps, and how we conditions that best apply, and that can be dealt with in made sure that they did not cost people money in one the Harrington review. area, but found those costs in other areas. That is the That best reflects the different nature of ESA and the main point of the review, and I have asked my hon. different needs of those who claim it. However, we Friend the Under-Secretary to make sure that that is the simply cannot pay those benefits indefinitely. I wonder case. The Bill covers that, and I hope that most people whether that would have been the previous Government’s will see that it is quite reasonable to try to recognise position if they had undertaken further reviews. For what that figure is. limited contributions under ESA, it would have been feasible for someone to receive ESA for their rest of Several hon. Members rose— their life. That was one of the big issues that we had to tackle. Mr Duncan Smith: I shall try to make progress, if hon. Members do not mind, because I have given way Sheila Gilmore rose— quite a lot on that subject. Before the introduction of the universal credit we will Mr Duncan Smith: I will give way to the hon. Lady, introduce many of the changes to conditionality and because she has been persistent. sanctions that I discussed. Claimants, I hope, on that principle will accept the claimant commitment, as they Sheila Gilmore: I thank the Secretary of State for will be subject to tougher regimes that are fair and giving way. ESA is not given indefinitely, because there reasonable. Turning to other benefit changes, we are are constant assessments and reassessments. I have making changes to the income support regime for lone constituents who have been reassessed twice in the past parents before the introduction of universal credit. Lone two years and who are due for another assessment. It is parents who can work will be expected to claim jobseeker’s not true that someone who receives contributory ESA allowance when their youngest child reaches the age of will receive it for ever without assessment. The assessment five. We want as many people as possible to get help to process should cover that, without an arbitrary cut-off engage with the labour market, and we know that about date. 80% of all lone parents are working or would like to work. Mr Duncan Smith: I remind the hon. Lady that in the support group, the contributory element does not apply. There will continue to be safeguards to allow parents It applies to people with finances that take them above to fit their job-search requirements with their caring the line. The income-based measure continues—that is responsibilities and child care availability. There are not the issue. The issue is whether we think that people other relevant changes, too, and I accept that there have who have contributed for a certain time have the right been concerns about them. I would be interested to to contribution-based benefit, regardless of their income, learn the Opposition’s position on that. We are making for a period of time. That is the debate. The income-based changes to contributory employment and support measure is exactly the same—it is not going to change, allowance, time-limiting receipt to one year for those in so that meets the hon. Lady’s concerns. the work-related activity group. There will be no change for those in the support group, as we have made clear, Sheila Gilmore rose— and people claiming income-related employment and support allowance will be unaffected. Mr Duncan Smith: I think that I have dealt with that. I note the comments that have been made by the right There are other changes, including the consumer hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill, who accepted, prices index uprating, in the Bill. We must get to grips in his speech to the Institute for Public Policy Research, with the housing benefit system, which ran out of that time-limiting ESA is the right thing to do, but control under the previous Government. I have a deep disagreed about the period—in this case, a year, whereas suspicion that they knew that before they called the 927 Welfare Reform Bill9 MARCH 2011 Welfare Reform Bill 928

[Mr Duncan Smith] because their main funding stream was housing benefit? Under this Bill, registered providers will have an opportunity election, and I sense that there were big differences to tackle welfare dependency among their tenants. about whether they would do something about this. Over the past 10 years, overall spending on housing Mr Duncan Smith: What we want from the Bill is to benefit has almost doubled from £11 billion to £21 billion, encourage people to get involved in the process—to which is a huge increase. I accept some of the arguments help people to use it as part of the incentive of trying to about the reasons for that—the fact, for example, that make the right decisions about taking work and providing house building fell to a record low, and more and more for their families. people had to be moved into the social rented sector—but the reality under the local housing allowance regime was that we lost control of spending. We have therefore Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): Will the introduced a number of changes to the local housing right hon. Gentleman consider the example of a married allowance, including a move to annual uprating in line couple who are at work and have five children from with CPI. Restricting uprating should enable us to keep previous marriages, but then lose their jobs because, for downward pressure on rents. Only if an increase in local instance, they work for the local council? Because they market rents exceeds the annual rate of CPI will the have five children, they would get almost £500 of personal restriction apply. That will also be an important step allowance and £200 of housing benefit, taking them towards the integration of housing support with the over the £500 cap. Rationally, they might choose, because universal credit. of the £500 cap, to split up their family so that there are three children and two children in two houses, each with We accept that those changes will not be easy for £250 of personal allowance and £200 of housing benefit, some people, which is why we want to provide a great making a global total of £900, when it would have been deal of transitional protection. Essentially, we have put £700. Surely his policies of breaking up families and up a total of about £190 million to smooth the transition making demands for more and more social housing, to those measures for those who are most likely to be alongside making people unemployed, do not add up to deeply affected. That includes £130 million in discretionary fairness or competence. housing payments, £50 million to assist people with housing advice and removal costs and £10 million for homelessness prevention, particularly in London. That, Mr Duncan Smith: I understand the hon. Gentleman’s coupled with the other changes that we have already point and can, I hope, assure him that as the Bill made through regulations, where we are looking at progresses, and as he will see as we reach Committee, making direct payments to those who are able to lower our objective is to recognise that unemployment, for their rents and at delaying the point at which the those who fall unemployed, is probably a temporary measure comes in by some nine months, was a product condition. He will understand that point more as we get of listening to people’s main concerns and trying to into the detail, but trying to find some way of protecting ensure that what we bring in is doable and manageable such people through that process is critical to us, as the by councils. vast majority will be back in work within a set period: 90% of people will be back in work within a year. Most Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab): On people will get through that process, and it is for us to the right hon. Gentleman’s point about housing benefits, ensure that the transition is met and dealt with, but I what discussions has his Department had with housing think that he will be very happy in due course to hear associations and their lenders about the disaggregation what we propose. of housing benefit under the universal credit and the direct payment to housing associations? They are deeply Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): Will my right hon. worried that, without that direct payment capacity across Friend give way? the piece, arrears will rise and lenders will become more nervous. Mr Duncan Smith: I am going to make a little progress, because I am conscious that we have a limit. Mr Speaker Mr Duncan Smith: We have had, and continue to is looking at me benignly, but he might not look so have, those discussions, and I understand the concern. benignly shortly. There is a debate, on both sides of the argument, about whether we basically continue with the principle that we It is time for fundamental reform of the social fund, should pay people and deal with certain elements of which is poorly targeted and open to abuse. Some what they receive because they are not capable of doing 17,000 people have received 10 or more crisis loans in so themselves, or whether we try to get people to the the past 12 months, and we have already taken steps to point where they are capable of managing their own limit the number of crisis loans for living expenses to money more and more. I recognise from the hon. Lady’s three in a 12-month period. Those are important steps, intervention that, on this matter, there is no absolute, because the fund has been somewhat out of control and but there is at least a debate on both sides, and that is is complex. The Bill will then pave the way for local simply where we are at the moment—trying to discuss authorities in England to deliver a system of assistance the issue with those who feel that they would be most that should replace the community care grants and affected. some crisis loan provision. This is a complex area, and many will know more about it than I do, but the key Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): Was it point is that we are trying— not a moral catastrophe and economic madness when, under the previous Labour Government, registered social Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): Will landlords had no incentive to tackle welfare dependency, the right hon. Gentleman give way? 929 Welfare Reform Bill9 MARCH 2011 Welfare Reform Bill 930

Mr Duncan Smith: In a second. I think that the hon. Mr Duncan Smith: My hon. Friend has made that Member for Bolton South East (Yasmin Qureshi) was point to me again and again. The key problem resulted slightly before the hon. Lady. from the changes that were made to dislocate much of The key thing that we are trying to do is to give local the process from people—face to face—who knew what authorities an element of control over some of the was going on in their communities. I think—I hope—this process, including in particular what I call the crisis Bill will change that, because local communities will loans short-term element—the hiatus moment in the now be able to determine how best to deliver that payments,—and some of the community care grants. critical service, and they will be closer, I hope, to people The point is that, when the fund became only distantly who need it. That is the principle behind it, and I hope linked to the Department, the telephone concept behind the House recognises that. it allowed people to push up the number of claims, The remaining discretionary elements of the social because they were not seen or understood, so their cases fund, as I indicated earlier, will stay in the wider benefit were not properly known and it was very difficult to system, and we will introduce payments on account to decide whether they were true or false. Local areas will replace alignment payments and the interim payments be far better able to recognise who such people are, of benefit when crisis loans are abolished, a point that what conditions they are in and what circumstances my hon. Friend the Minister has also made on several apply to them. Therefore, localising the process will be occasions. We will extend the provision of budgeting very important. Of course, huge swathes of it will loans so that they are available to help people, as I said remain centralised, but we feel that those two elements to the hon. Lady just now. in particular will most respond to localisation. On disability living allowance, the personal independence payment and the changes to and reforms of them, I Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab): I understand believe—and the Under-Secretary of State for Work the Minister’s explanation of the social fund, but a and Pensions, my hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke linked point is that thousands of young children currently (Maria Miller), in her consultations, has by and large receive a free school meal, the only hot meal that most obtained widespread agreement—that we need to start of them get, and that some people also receive free reforming disability living allowance. I think most people prescriptions. Can the Secretary of State assure us that accept that the system we inherited does not deliver for those who receive free prescriptions and free school some of those in genuine need, particularly given its meals will continue to do so? confusing nature. Disabled people often tell us that the claims process is incredibly complicated and decisions Mr Duncan Smith: That is exactly what we plan to do, are not consistent. We need to sort that out. but, because of the universal credit, we will have to be a Many people—a significant number—still wrongly little more specific, and we will be so in Committee. We believe that DLA is an out-of-work benefit, so, as are still looking at the best approach to take, but that is people said on several occasions during the consultation, exactly what we plan to do. We do not want—the “Being in receipt of DLA is a reason why you wouldn’t purpose is not—to disadvantage anybody who receives want to be getting involved with work; you might lose such support, but, because of the way the universal your DLA.” Such confusion is absurd, because that is credit works, we will have to think through carefully not the case, so we need to sort the issue out, and I hope how we achieve that. The principle behind the measure people recognise that it is important. will remain that we want to support those who are in difficulty and receive support as it stands. About 50% of those currently receiving DLA did not have to provide any additional evidence to support their original claim, and more than two thirds of current Mr Slaughter: Will the Secretary of State give way? recipients have an indefinite award. That means basically that no one is ever going to see them again, yet their Mr Duncan Smith: I think that the hon. Member for condition may change; it may worsen or it may get Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford) was before the hon. better. That is why we propose to replace DLA with a Gentleman, and he has had a shot. new system—the personal independence payment, or PIP. This benefit will be awarded on the basis of a more Dr Whiteford: Returning to crisis loans, my greatest objective assessment of individual need; that assessment concern is that people who go for them will not be able is vital. The money will continue to be paid to people in to buy essential items such as cookers and beds. That and out of work, and it will not be means-tested. I want will push them straight into the arms of loan sharks to be clear that we do not intend to take away the and other high-cost lenders, and that issue has been mobility of people in residential care. As I explained overlooked. I also question the view that the increase in earlier, this is about overlapping payments. The review the uptake of such loans has not been down to the will cover all that. The key thing is reform. recession and the hardship that people have faced. Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD): Mr Duncan Smith: The answer to the hon. Lady’s There is a great deal of uncertainty about how children question is that budgeting loans will still be available for might be affected by the reforms to DLA. Is the Secretary those cases. On the second question that she raises of State proposing further consultation? Is there any about crisis loans being down to the recession, the trend information that he can give about future processes of upward claiming was on track and had started long regarding children? before the recession. Mr Duncan Smith: We are consulting on that. However, The Minister of State, Department for Work and this is going to be done later on, so we will have plenty Pensions (Steve Webb): With the telephones. of time to hear many more representations concerning 931 Welfare Reform Bill9 MARCH 2011 Welfare Reform Bill 932

[Mr Duncan Smith] that if we believe it is right to see people, we may then be seeing somebody whose condition has worsened, and children before we make any decisions. My hon. Friend surely that is an advantage. the Under-Secretary is already talking to various groups about this particular issue. Mrs McGuire rose—

Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): In relation to the Mr Duncan Smith: I am going to press on, because I indefinite awards, there is already a system in Northern think that I have dealt with the right hon. Lady’s point. Ireland place whereby people have periodic checks, and She may not agree with me, but I think that this is the I am sure that Northern Ireland is no different from the right position for us to take. rest of the United Kingdom. If there is already a system of regular checks in place, why change that? Mr Liam Byrne (Birmingham, Hodge Hill) (Lab): This is an extremely important point. Is the Secretary of Mr Duncan Smith: Because it does not apply to State saying that someone who is deaf-blind will be everybody; it is very patchy. The honest truth is that no recalled for regular checks under the regime that he is award we make should say to people, as has happened aspiring to put in place—yes or no? too often in the past: “You are in receipt of a particular benefit and we don’t want ever to see you again.” If the hon. Gentleman is arguing, as I think he is, that it is Mr Duncan Smith: The detail of how that works will right to see people, surely we should be arguing that it is be looked at during the passage of the Bill. My point is right to see them all to ensure that when their condition that built into this should be the requirement that it is changes, that is met. That is surely fair both to them and necessary to see people. There is the question of who to the taxpayer. and what conditions we can look at specifically, but it should be right that it is bound into the system that we Mr Tom Clarke: Despite the right hon. Gentleman’s are going to look at people. In some cases, it may be assurances, I ask him to look again clause 83(2), which entirely self-evident that the individual’s condition has says: not changed and there is not much to be done; in other “The condition is that the person is an in-patient of a hospital cases, an assessment may be required because their or similar institution, or a resident of a care home, in circumstances condition has changed quite fundamentally. I do not in which any of the costs of any qualifying services provided for understand why the need to see somebody who may be the person are borne out of public or local funds by virtue of a in receipt of a benefit should be such an issue for specified enactment.” people. It should not be worrying; it is part of a process. That is absolutely clear, but, with great respect, it is not [Interruption.] Before right hon. and hon. Members what he is telling us. object to that change, they need to ask themselves what they would say to those people whose conditions have Mr Duncan Smith: I am afraid that I do not agree changed for the worse and who are confused and never with the right hon. Gentleman, because that is exactly make it back to make a proper claim. This is a debate what I was saying. The provisions gives us the opportunity that we can and will have. to do just that; it does not specify what we do, but it tells us that this is what we are going to be doing. We are Mr Byrne rose— looking at all this because, in our view, we need to come forward with an amount that is relevant to the mobility Mr Duncan Smith: I think, with respect to the right that is necessary for people in care homes. hon. Gentleman, that I have dealt with this point, and I am going to make some progress. [Interruption.] Oh, Mrs Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab): The Secretary of go on then. State is playing with words. The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) is right. Although reference Mr Byrne: I am genuinely trying to be helpful to the is made to an indefinite award, these awards have always Secretary of State. He says that his Bill is incomplete been liable to review. If someone has an irrecoverable and that he has not been able to furnish the House with disability such as permanent blindness, what is the full details on how the powers that he seeks from us will value in regular reviews to assess whether they are still be put into practice. Will he consider exempting people entitled to DLA or the PIP? with certain kinds of conditions from the need to go Mr Duncan Smith: As I said to the hon. Member for back to go through check after check? Strangford (Jim Shannon), it is assumed straight away that this is a terribly intrusive process, but in reality Mr Duncan Smith: I say to the right hon. Gentleman, what goes on is patchy. For many people, their condition despite his best intentions, that the mess that the may well have worsened. Do we simply want to say that previous Government got into over incapacity benefit— we should not speak to them or see them, and that it is [Interruption.] It is all very well for Labour Members therefore left up to the vagaries of the system? It is not to sit in opposition and pretend that nothing went built into the system that they will be seen. wrong under the previous Government. We are picking up an incapacity benefit system in which they left Mrs McGuire rose— people parked, never seen by anybody for years and years. All we are putting into the Bill is the requirement Mr Duncan Smith: Wait a minute. The right hon. that people are seen to check on their condition. That Lady has made a point and I am trying to respond to it. has to be in their interests, and it is not in any way a As this is not built into the present system, it is left to problem that it should happen. Of course, if the right decision making, which can be very ad hoc, about who hon. Gentleman wants to try to make amendments as someone sees and when they see them. All I am saying is the Bill goes through Committee, we will always be 933 Welfare Reform Bill9 MARCH 2011 Welfare Reform Bill 934 happy to debate those and listen to him. My point is have been published in the Bill, rather than being legislated simply this: it is right to see people, and wrong to leave on later, many people feel that the Government’s mind them parked for ever on set benefits. Seeing them is is set in stone. more humane than inhumane, and that balance is the way that we should go. Mr Duncan Smith: The measures in the Bill set the As we introduce our new welfare system, we will have framework for the details. We will obviously work through to take steps to clamp down on benefit fraud, as Opposition the details in time for the Committee stage. It is reasonable Members know. The system that we have is inefficient to do that. The Bill does not set out the detailed and too often ineffective. Despite significant overlaps prescriptions, as is right. I do not agree that the process between benefit and tax credit frauds, fraudsters are is wrong. subject to different treatment in their cases as they are handled by different groups—DWP,Her Majesty’s Revenue In conclusion, the Bill is not just about balancing and Customs or even a local authority. The mess and budgets, although that is part of the process. It is also overlap is enormous. The Bill introduces powers enabling about transforming lives and moving people—hopefully— a new single fraud investigation service to investigate from the entrapment and tyranny of doubt and dependency, and prosecute all cases of benefit and tax credit fraud. I to some kind of opportunity, enterprise and change to hope that the House supports that process. We will their lives that they can make themselves, through assistance ensure that anyone found committing lower-level fraud and support. Surely it is our duty together to ensure will face a tough minimum fine as an alternative to that no one is written off, discarded or left behind. I prosecution. For all other fraudsters, we will seek believe that that is what the Bill will achieve. prosecution whenever we can. We need to ensure that Notwithstanding criticisms and individual issues, I hope fraudsters get the message that repeated criminal behaviour that the House will recognise that the purpose of the will not be tolerated, so those found to have committed Bill is positive, and that it will transform the lives that fraud may face losing their benefit for certain periods; I we seek to transform. have already dealt with the detail of the timings. I simply say to the House, because this was raised in 1.42 pm the Select Committee, that I am absolutely clear that not every problem with over-payment or difficulties Mr Liam Byrne (Birmingham, Hodge Hill) (Lab): I with those payments was down to fraud. I fully accept beg to move an amendment, to leave out from “That” to that with the complexity of the system, officials made the end of the Question and add: mistakes and that we were often too ready to badge “this House, whilst affirming its belief in the principle of simplifying people as fraudsters when in fact they were not necessarily the benefits system and good work incentives, declines to give a fraudsters but caught up in a system that left them Second Reading to the Welfare Reform Bill because the proposal confused and perhaps not making the right or necessary of the Universal Credit as it stands creates uncertainty for thousands level of statements to the authorities. This process is of people in the United Kingdom; because the Bill fails to clarify about separating those people out. A recent trial of a what level of childcare support will be available for parents following the abolition of the tax credit system; because the Bill changed reconsideration process at Jobcentre Plus led penalises savers who will be barred from the Universal Credit; to a fall of some 15% in the number of appeals being because the Bill disadvantages people suffering from cancer or heard. The general view is that process will be sustainable mental illness due to the withdrawal of contributory Employment and will work. Support Allowance; because the Bill contains no safeguards to We are also changing child maintenance. Much of mothers in receipt of childcare support; because it proposes to withdraw the mobility component of Disability Living Allowance the current system is designed to drive people into from people in residential care and fails to provide sufficient acrimonious disputes during family breakdown. We safeguards for future and necessary reform; because it provides should all agree that we want to take the heat out of no safeguards for those losing Housing Benefit or appropriate such situations, as far as we can. That is why we are checks on the Secretary of State’s powers; because it fails to reforming the system and introducing a gateway to the clarify how Council Tax Benefit will be incorporated in the statutory scheme so that parents consider making their Universal Credit system; because it fails to determine how recipients own arrangements. We will offer parents a calculation-only of free school meals and beneficiaries of Social Fund loans will service to make it easier for them to make their own be treated; and because the proposals act as a disincentive for the self-employed who wish to start up a business; and is strongly of arrangements. Of course, if they choose to take matters the opinion that the publication of such a Bill should have been further, they can. preceded by both fuller consultation and pre-legislative scrutiny We are introducing measures to allow non-resident of a draft Bill.” parents to pay through Maintenance Direct when the I start with a word of thanks to the Secretary of State case is within a statutory scheme. That will provide for meeting me and my right hon. Friend the Member further flexibility for parents. We need to keep the for East Ham (Stephen Timms) a week or so ago to burden of the cost of collection under control. In discuss the Bill. As I said to him then, we genuinely 2009-10, the cost of collecting every pound was more want to approach the vital question of welfare reform than 40p. However, should the non-resident parent fail in a spirit of national consensus. We believe that if we to pay in full or on time, we will move the case swiftly can forge such a consensus it will be good for our into the collection service and take enforcement action country, it will reduce the deficit and, crucially, as he where necessary. said before he sat down, it will be good for the fight against poverty in this country. We have been forced to Sheila Gilmore: Why was it necessary to introduce table the amendment to oppose the Bill because it fails provisions in the Bill before the consultation process such fundamental tests that we believe the Government has concluded? The consultation process on this matter should go away and bring back a better Bill that will is due to conclude on 3 April. Because the conditions deliver genuine and lasting welfare reform. 935 Welfare Reform Bill9 MARCH 2011 Welfare Reform Bill 936

[Mr Liam Byrne] In looking at this Bill over the past few weeks, I could not but remember Lord Birkenhead’s description of We could begin to forge that national consensus by Baldwin’s method of Government: drawing the right lessons from the past 13 years. The “He takes a leap in the dark, looks around, and takes another.” Secretary of State presented his view, but elided one or That is the approach that this ramshackle Bill proposes two prominent features of the past 13 years, such as the for millions of people in our country—a leap in the fact that the number of people on out-of-work benefits dark. I hope that we can begin to sort out, as is before the depression came down by 1 million and the appropriate on Second Reading, where the Government fact that the claimant count halved. We did not once, let have got their principles right—some of their principles alone twice, see unemployment go through the 3 million are right—and where they have got them wrong. The mark. We can draw important lessons for this debate Secretary of State says he wants to set a new course. from that period, the first of which is that if the Secretary The problem is that we are not quite sure where it will of State wants welfare to work to work we need more lead. jobs. Labour consistently put that approach in place. The Secretary of State said to his spring conference Mr Slaughter: Did my right hon. Friend notice that at the weekend— almost every time the Secretary of State was asked a question on free school meals, housing benefit or disability Mr Duncan Smith: You were listening? living allowance, his answer was, “I’ll get back to you.” There are no answers to those points. I have here a few Mr Byrne: I not only listened carefully, but checked of the letters from my worried constituents, just on the transcript because I could not believe what the disability living allowance. Thousands or millions of Secretary of State said: people are worried that they will not be able to make “It’s not the absence of jobs that’s the problem.” ends meet, and the Secretary of State has no answers. Given that five people are chasing every vacancy in this country and that 120 Members of this House have more Mr Byrne: The purpose of this House, when it gives than 10 people chasing every vacancy in their constituencies, new powers to the Executive, is to have at least some the absence of jobs is very much a problem at the heart idea of what they will do with them. I hope that a bit of of his welfare reform programme. enlightenment will come from this debate, but we have not heard much yet. Mr Duncan Smith: Does the right hon. Gentleman recall that I also said that notwithstanding the period of Charlie Elphicke: I take issue with the right hon. growth and the number of jobs created, more than half Gentleman’s statement that the Bill is a leap in the dark. the jobs created by the Government did not go to We know that 5 million people of working age could British nationals sitting on unemployment benefit? work but do not. We know from December’s labour market report by the Office for National Statistics that 1.2 million of the people who took the jobs that were Mr Byrne: The employment rate under the Labour created came from overseas. We need to get our 5 million Government reached a record high and there were countrymen who are out of work back into work. 64 quarters of consistent economic growth. The idea Surely that is the priority. that welfare to work can work when the number of jobs is not growing is frankly laughable. There is an important Mr Byrne: Will the hon. Gentleman intervene again lesson that we must draw from the past to get welfare and tell me how many of his constituents are chasing reform right. each vacancy?

Mr Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con) Charlie Elphicke: Of course there are quite a few rose— people chasing each vacancy. As the right hon. Gentleman knows, the issue is not with this Government but with Mr Byrne: I want to move on to a second lesson the mess left by the previous Government. This Government before I give way. are trying to grow the economy and make Britain great When we brought laws to this House to set new again. obligations for people to work, we ensured that set alongside them were new opportunities to work. We Mr Byrne: I am grateful for that observation. I say also brought determination and care to the business of gently that, with five people chasing every job in the legislation. In the Bill, there is determined carelessness. economy, if we are serious about getting people back into work—I think that the Government do want to do Mr Heald: Is the right hon. Gentleman seriously the right thing—we have to do more to create more saying that at a time when it is more difficult on the jobs jobs. We can pass laws and put in place extra help for front we should not make the effort to help people off unemployed people, but there must also be an economic welfare and into work? If people are capable of working, policy that creates more jobs to absorb the very deep they should get help. That is what this Bill does. Should public sector job cuts that we know are coming down we sit on our hands and say that all is hopeless? the line.

Mr Byrne: That was an extraordinary contribution. Geraint Davies: Does my right hon. Friend accept Of course we believe that extra help—for example, the that the deficit was the price paid to avoid a depression future jobs fund, which the hon. Gentleman’s party caused by the bankers, and that the best way to get rid closed down—should be given to get people back to of it is to focus on economic growth, make bankers pay work. their fair share and make sensible savings over time, not 937 Welfare Reform Bill9 MARCH 2011 Welfare Reform Bill 938 to make the poorest pay the most while the richest are with a Bill of such stature. May I suggest that my right lavished with massive bonuses, which is what the Bill is hon. Friend link up with the Secretary of State to about? discuss the procedure to be followed after Committee and before Report, so that the bulk of the regulations Mr Byrne: I will avoid getting into an extended are published in time for us and others to consider them debate about macro-economic policy, although I would before our final debates on the Bill? happily discuss it all afternoon, but my hon. Friend is right. Under our approach, despite the fact that we Mr Byrne: That is an extremely sensible proposal, faced the worst global crash since the 1930s, unemployment and perhaps the Minister of State, the right hon. Member did not go beyond 3 million, as it did not once but twice for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling), will reflect on it under the Conservative Administration. in his winding-up speech. It is important for the other place to be involved in discussions, too, to ensure that Mr Evennett: We are listening to the right hon. Gentleman the Bill leaves this House in better shape. with great interest, but is he not ashamed that although his party was in power for 13 years it failed to make Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab): May I align work pay and that the UK now has one of the EU’s myself with what my hon. Friend the Member for highest rates of children living in workless households? Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) just said? Is that not a disgrace? Will my right hon. Friend put on record the fact that Mr Byrne: I would do no more than encourage the words that we used to use in the Chamber—equality hon. Gentleman to look at the analysis of his noble and non-discrimination—must exist for people in the Friend Lord Freud, who examined our work to get work force with disabilities and from ethnic minorities people back to work and remarked on how fast the at a time when there are few vacancies? I think in number of people on out-of-work benefit had fallen. particular of Haringey Phoenix Group, which represents He examined the number of children lifted out of blind people, whose representatives came to see me in poverty and said that our record was truly remarkable. my constituency.

Mr Stewart Jackson: I fear that the right hon. Gentleman Mr Byrne: That is a challenge that I know well, is going through the motions. He was a gifted and representing the constituency that I do. I will say a little talented Chief Secretary to the Treasury, and I do not more later about the challenges and the reforms that are think he truly believes what he is saying. Will he at least needed on disability living allowance. concede that people who are no friends of the Conservative There are some principles in the Bill that we support. party, such as the Scottish TUC, have said that worklessness The principle of universal credit builds on the changes was exacerbated by the decision to import millions of that we made to ensure that work pays, and we welcome low-skilled, low-wage workers from eastern Europe, some of the proposed reforms to the claimant commitment. which drove down wages and conditions and made it We certainly welcome tougher and tougher measures on much more difficult for indigenous British workers to fraud, but the basic truth, which many hon. Members secure jobs and get off welfare dependency? have rehearsed this afternoon, is that the Bill is not a pamphlet. It is not about theory; it is about practice. It Mr Byrne: I do not think I should veer into a debate is therefore important that we consider whether it will about immigration this afternoon, because you, Mr Deputy foster ambition and strengthen compassion in a number Speaker, would quickly call me to order. I would, however, of important areas. I start with child care, with which make the point that, after consistent economic growth, the Secretary of State started. employment went up, the number of people on out-of-work For millions of families in this country, and especially benefits came down and the number of people lifted out for women, the truth is that extra help with child care is of poverty, including pensioners and children, was at a needed if they are to get back to work. Many families in record high. The Government can learn something our country receiving a combination of housing benefit, from that record. council tax benefit and child tax credit have up to 97% Of course, that has to be put alongside the right of their child care costs supported. The Secretary of legislation to encourage people back to work, which is State said today that he wants that budget to be frozen, where I fear the Bill will fall short, for a very simple which at least shows some progress, but he also confirmed reason. It fails the basic tests of whether it fosters that the number of people who will have a claim on that ambition and whether it reinforces and consolidates our budget will grow. That of course means that some obligations to each other. Fostering ambition and nurturing people will get less help with their child care than compassion are the basic tests of welfare reform, and I before. What we have not learned this afternoon is what am afraid the Bill fails both. that will really mean for people. My hon. Friend the Member for Stockton North John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): I (Alex Cunningham) asked the Secretary of State a very oppose the Bill, and given any opportunity I will vote straight question on 9 February: had he decided which against it. child care option he would propose? “Not exactly, no”, As my hon. Friend the Member for Hammersmith said the Secretary of State. (Mr Slaughter) said, the Government’s response to every “Can you give us a clue?”, representation that has been made by external organisations or today in the House has been, “These matters will be my hon. Friend persisted, gamely. dealt with in regulations”. Attached to the Bill is a “I will give you a clue when we are a bit closer to the finalised quantity of regulations that we have not seen before detail”, 939 Welfare Reform Bill9 MARCH 2011 Welfare Reform Bill 940

[Mr Byrne] Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab): Would my right hon. Friend care to comment on reports in today’s said the Secretary of State. Now, the right hon. Gentleman papers that representatives of 30 cancer charities have is asking for powers to end child tax credit. I am not written to the Secretary of State expressing concern sure how much more finality one could want, but there about people who are recovering from cancer? Specifically, are still no answers other than the comment that the they are likely to lose their employment and support Government are still consulting. We hear rumours that allowance after a year, but 75% of them or not in a for some people the cover for their child care costs will position to return to work after a year. be reduced to 70%—a gigantic new bill for many families that could prevent people from getting back to work. Mr Byrne: That is deeply concerning, and I will dwell Helen Dent, chief executive of Family Action, has said: on it in a moment. “The possible reduction in help with childcare costs could mean that many parents might end up being worse off under George Hollingbery (Meon Valley) (Con): The right universal credit”. hon. Gentleman makes a persuasive case on the detail— I say today, on behalf of the 486,000 families who get clearly a lot of it remains to be found, but this is a child care help from the Government, that they need to confusing and complex matter. Will he admit that the know more. current system is unsustainably complicated? There are 8,600 pages of guidance on benefits administration at the DWP and 2,000 pages for local government, and Glenda Jackson (Hampstead and Kilburn) (Lab): I there are 30 different benefits to administer. Change is absolutely agree with my right hon. Friend, but is there required. If we have a framework and consult widely, not a further black hole in the Government’s proposals, we will have a better system. which is the failure to acknowledge regional variations? The cost of child care in London, for example, is massively higher than it might be in another metropolitan Mr Byrne: The Opposition want welfare reform that area of the country. The Bill reflects that lack of definition sticks. When so many details are unclear, the danger is and flexibility and a complete ignoring of regional that the Bill will unravel progressively as it comes into variations. effect. We have discussed whether the Bill passes the test of fostering ambition for families and have shown that a Mr Byrne: My hon. Friend is right, and I am afraid it great number of questions remain unanswered. Let us gets worse. The Secretary of State has made much of now consider savers. All hon. Members want to nurture his effort to reduce the disincentive to work, which we the ambition to save. The amount that people must save genuinely welcome, but, like me, he will have noticed for a deposit for a house is heaven knows how much, that earnings are now growing at about half the rate of but now that tuition fees have been trebled, more families prices. He will also doubtless have noticed that once have to save harder to get their young people into people begin to earn £43,400, they will lose their child college. One might have thought, therefore, that the benefit, which is worth several thousand pounds a year. Government would provide more incentives to foster That all puts pressure on second earners to go out to the ambition to save, but the noble Lord Freud told the work, so the question must therefore be what marginal House of Lords that deduction rates will confront those second earners. The answer is not easy to find, but it is buried away in “the £16,000 savings threshold would extend to all households eligible for universal credit.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, paragraph 69 of the impact assessment. Having read it, 15 December 2010; Vol. 723, c. WA204.] I am not surprised that the Government did not put it up in spotlights, because it states that twice as many There we have it. The Government are so keen to foster earners will see their marginal deduction rates go up the ambition to save that once someone has £16,000 in than will see them go down. Who is most likely to be the bank—the price of two and a half years at university— hit? It will be couples with children, whose median their tax and in-work benefits are taken away. deduction rates will go up. Mr Duncan Smith: Will the right hon. Gentleman That is what we do know, but what is worse is what give way? we do not know. We do not know what will happen to those entitled to free school meals; what will happen to Mr Byrne: I will give way in a moment, but first I free prescriptions; which working families will be exempt want to tell the House what James Browne of the from the benefits cap; or how unearned income such as Institute for Fiscal Studies said: widow’s benefit or child maintenance will be treated. We do not know about sick pay or maternity pay, and “This is a much harsher treatment of capital than we have in we have no idea how on earth council tax benefit will the tax credit system.” work. As the House knows, the council tax benefit Will the Secretary of State tell us how that measure system is going local, but the rules on universal credit rewards savers? are to remain national. The Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, who likes to be Mr Duncan Smith: May I remind the right hon. straightforward with the House, boldly asserted on Gentleman that his system became completely absurd, 17 February that he was in charge of drawing up the because it allowed people with huge savings and income new rules on council tax benefit, but surely the final to claim benefits? The previous Government’s system word must come from the Work and Pensions Secretary. supported not the bottom two or three deciles but Once again, there is total confusion. The questions for people further up the income scale. That is one reason families are stacking up, and there are no answers to so few people from the bottom income deciles got back any of them. That is the story for families. into work, and why poverty was so high. 941 Welfare Reform Bill9 MARCH 2011 Welfare Reform Bill 942

Mr Byrne: Does the Secretary of State accept that, The wider point that is emerging is that we do not on current figures, taking away the in-work benefits of know enough about how the Bill affects families and people who have £16,000 in the bank would mean savers, but there is also a question over how it will affect 400,000 families with children losing benefits? Surely the self-employed. Over the last few weeks, we have that is not a good way of fostering the ambition to save. heard a great deal of pitch-rolling from the Chancellor and the Prime Minister, who are now worried about the Mr Duncan Smith: The right hon. Gentleman’s figures damage that their last Budget did to our economy. All are incorrect. When universal credit comes in, the figure of us hope that the Chancellor can upgrade his growth is more than likely to be no higher than about 100,000— forecast at the forthcoming Budget after doing so well [Interruption.] Wait a minute. I know where the right over the last year, and the Prime Minister is now promising hon. Gentleman gets his figures from. Those 100,000, that his next Budget will be the most pro-growth Budget of course, will be transitional protected, so they will not in the universe. He told his spring conference: lose. “At its beating heart this is still a party of start-ups, go-getters, risk-takers…We’re the party of practical men and women, people Mr Byrne: The Secretary of State can say that only with a passion and a mission to build a business and see it grow...We are the party of enterprise.” because he is taking tax credits from so many families over the next two or three years. He has not given a No doubt, then, the Bill is part of that plan—no doubt guarantee on future savers. What will happen to their the Bill will make it simpler, easier and more encouraging incentive to save under his new system? for people in this country to start a business and to make that entrepreneurial leap. Well, my hon. Friend Mr Duncan Smith: Will the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green) give way, because he needs to answer my question? asked the Secretary of State about the self-employed on 9 February. To be fair to him, I think he recognises the problem. Surveying the position of the self-employed, Mr Byrne: The Secretary of State needs to answer my he told her that question. The Minister of State told my right hon. Friend the Member for East Ham that getting rid of the “we are conscious that that area is the slight blip in the system.” savings cap would cost only £70 million. Will the Secretary This is what the blips in the system at the Federation of State therefore look again? He must recognise, as I of Small Businesses told me yesterday. Mike Cherry, the do, that he is currently not fostering the ambition to FSB national policy chairman, said: save for hundreds of thousands of people. “We are concerned that the Government has assumed that entrepreneurs with a new business will be paying themselves…and will therefore lose all benefits under the Universal Credit system…A Mr Duncan Smith: I completely disagree with the measure such as this simply creates yet another barrier towards right hon. Gentleman on that, but I want to challenge self-employment which is particularly unhelpful at a time when him to give an answer to taxpayers, who ask whether we are relying on the small business sector to grow the economy”. the welfare system is about supporting people who are So much for the party of enterprise. most in need, or whether it is about casting money wider and wider to people who can support themselves Mr Duncan Smith rose— in particular periods. How much more money does he really want to spend? Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con) rose—

Mr Byrne: I am afraid that the Secretary of State has Mr Byrne: I will give way to the hon. Gentleman. still not provided an answer to my question—he still cannot tell us how he will encourage people to save. Rehman Chishti: Considering that the right hon. Tuition fees have trebled, and people in my constituency Gentleman agrees that it is absolutely right and proper are asking, “How on earth do we encourage our young to support families, does he concede that the Labour people to go to college, and how on earth can we afford party got that wrong because couples were paid to live to get our young people into university?”—[Interruption.] apart? I know the Secretary of State does not have those challenges to face, but thousands of people in our Mr Byrne: I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman constituencies need to save to get their kids to university. was in the Chamber when my hon. Friend the Member The regime that he is proposing will strip in-work for Swansea West (Geraint Davies) spoke of the benefits from them, kicking the ladder away from aspiration disincentives for families to stay together under the new in our country. regime, but if he wants to pretend that the Bill ends the couple penalty in the welfare system once and for all, Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con): Surely perfectly and immaculately, I look forward to him setting the right hon. Gentleman must recognise that tuition out his argument. fees are not payable until such time as people come out of university and earn a salary of £21,000 or more. His Mr Duncan Smith rose— argument is a red herring. Mr Byrne: I think the Secretary of State wanted to Mr Byrne: I do not know what the hon. Lady’s say a word about the encouragement that he will provide constituents are saying to her, but many in my constituency for small businesses. live in fear of debt—they want not to burden their children with debt, but for them to get a first-class Mr Duncan Smith: The right hon. Gentleman raises education, so that they can contribute to the future of the issue of the self-employed. I made this point to him our country. privately and I will now make it publicly: they will fall 943 Welfare Reform Bill9 MARCH 2011 Welfare Reform Bill 944

[Mr Duncan Smith] what we are looking for is the amount necessary for people who are in residential care. That is the commitment within the universal credit. The point that I was referring that I have given. That is the exact fact, that is how it to was how complicated and counter-intuitive the current remains, and all other things will fit around that. systems have become, as he knows very well. We are seeking the best way to ensure that the right reporting Mr Byrne: The argument that the Secretary of State structures are in place for those people, who will be has rehearsed this afternoon is that the Bill will give him inside the universal credit. the flexibility either to withdraw or to reform the proposal, but what he has not set out for the House is whether he Mr Byrne: Perhaps the Secretary of State can tell the will reduce the savings target of £135 million that has House this afternoon when those proposals will be been scored by the Chancellor against the measure. ready for us to look at. [Interruption.] “In time for Committee,” he says from a sedentary position. We all Mr Duncan Smith: I have just given an answer. look forward to seeing that. It is now clear that for the self-employed, savers and Mr Byrne: I therefore look forward to the Government families, this Bill at the very best poses more questions reflecting on this debate and perhaps giving slightly than it answers. The other question that the House has more clarity when the Minister winds up. to ask the Secretary of State this afternoon is not about More alarming for many people is the lack of any how we foster ambition, but about how we nurture safeguards on what the Government have in mind for compassion. How do we strengthen and reinforce our the future of DLA, especially as we know that the obligations to each other? That is something that we Chancellor is determined to take £1 billion off the bill will hear a lot more about, when we talk about the and then ask what kind of reform will be necessary to reform of disability living allowance. What we know deliver his sums. Not for him the subtleties of asking about the detailed reforms is not good. I welcome what what kind of reform might make sense. This is what the the Secretary of State has said about the mobility Multiple Sclerosis Society had to say about the measure: component of DLA. I think that he has confirmed that “We share serious concerns”—[Interruption.] It is incredible he is withdrawing the proposal to cut £135 million from that when such organisations present their arguments, the mobility component of DLA. If that is true, it is those on the Government Front Bench would rather welcome, because we are talking about a measure that talk among themselves than listen to what they have to the chief executive of Scope pronounced as “callous” say. This is what the Multiple Sclerosis Society said: and an “We share serious concerns with a large number of other “assault on the most vulnerable”. disability organisations that the Bill in its current form could lead The rationale presented by the right hon. Gentleman to those most in need losing out on the support they rely on”. the Minister of State has this morning been taken apart The Secretary of State’s own equality assessment says by 39 charities. I am afraid that I have to agree with the that 13% of disabled households could be entitled to words of those campaigners who have said that less help under the new system. He has simply not “many of these people” provided assurances on that point. When my hon. Friend —those in residential care— the Member for Stretford and Urmston asked him about that, he said: “will be prevented from enjoying the freedom of movement that is taken for granted by people who are not disabled.” “I am sorry to be cagey about this. It is simply because this will Those are, of course, the words of the motion to the become very clear when we publish the Bill.” Liberal Democrats’ spring conference this weekend. I Well, here is the Bill, but where are the answers to the hope that together we may be able to prevail and get this question? measure dead and buried. Mr Duncan Smith: I am interested in what the right Mr Tom Clarke: On the crucial issue of the mobility hon. Gentleman is saying. He is going on about the component for people in residential accommodation, review and the issues around disability living allowance, when my right hon. Friend put his question to the but I notice that the Opposition make no mention of Secretary of State, I understood the Minister of State to that in their amendment. I notice also that both he and be indicating dissent. Will my right hon. Friend give the his leader have said that they support the reforms to Minister another opportunity to clarify this important disability living allowance, so perhaps he would like to issue? make it clear: is he in support of them or not?

Mr Byrne: I am grateful for my right hon. Friend’s Mr Byrne: Everybody is in support of the reform of suggestion. The Secretary of State has £135 million disability living allowance, but we have not said that scored against the saving. I now invite him to intervene £1 billion should come off the bill and that we should and say whether that saving is off the table, or whether then work out what kind of reform would deliver those the measure is going forward. numbers. The Secretary of State must realise that this is why millions of people up and down the country are so Mr Duncan Smith: The right hon. Gentleman knows alarmed about the reform proposals being put in place. very well, because we had this conversation privately. Now he—or, indeed, his Minister—has a chance to say As I assured him, and as I assure him now, what we have that he will listen to campaign groups that are worried done is roll the proposal into the personal independence about the proposals, that he will listen to amendments plan. We are reviewing what is necessary. I said to him and that he will try to put in place safeguards to ensure then, as I have said to the right hon. Member for that DLA reform is done in the right way. Yes, we Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill (Mr Clarke), that should reform DLA, but we should not abolish it. 945 Welfare Reform Bill9 MARCH 2011 Welfare Reform Bill 946

Charlie Elphicke: Would not one key reform be to hit working families, starting with 10 raids on the family ensure that those claiming the allowance are seen, to budget, taking out £1.5 billion from this April. Two check that they are still in need of it? Some 140,000 thirds of that bill would not be necessary if unemployment people have not been seen by the Department for Work was not as high—in fact, if it was down at the level at and Pensions in the last 20 years, going back to 1992. which it would have been under Labour. Nowhere is Surely that is unacceptable. that muddle on whether the Bill saves money more confusing than when it comes to the housing measures. Mr Byrne: There is a strong case for reform of DLA. The lobby groups agree with that, as do we, but we do Several hon. Members rose— not agree with the way the Government have approached the issue. First, we had an announcement by the Chancellor Mr Byrne: I will give way in a moment, but I want to of the Exchequer that DLA would be cut £1 billion, make this point first. then we got a consultation, which has only just finished, and while all that was happening a Bill was published Clause 68 puts into the Secretary of State’s hands with no detail or safeguards dealing with how that unprecedented powers to do whatever he wants with reform would be conducted. The Secretary of State people’s rents. Normally, we would object to that kind must realise that that is a serious concern for millions of of sweeping power because we would not know what a people up and down this country. Minister was going to do with it. This time, however, we object because we know exactly what the Secretary of That alarm is simply magnified by the proposals to State is going to do. He has proposed a housing benefit set a one-year limit for those who can receive contributory cap, which he says will save money, but the Mayor of employment and support allowance. I, too, think that London has now said that the measure will cost more there is a case for time limits—there is a good case for money because homelessness costs will rocket. considering two years, for example—but this morning 30 cancer charities have written to the Secretary of The Secretary of State says that his measures will State urging him to think again on that measure. His bring rents down, but the Secretary of State for own Department’s statistics, they say, show that 75% of Communities and Local Government is putting rents cancer patients still need ESA after a year. Their message up in the social housing sector to 80% of market value. is blunt: The House of Commons Library says that that could “this proposal, rather than creating an incentive to work, will lead cost up to £200 million. One half of the Conservative to many cancer patients losing their ESA simply because they party does not know what the other half is doing, and have not recovered quickly enough.” taxpayers are picking up the tab. In fact, it was left to If this indifference is not addressed in Committee, the the Pensions Minister to tell the House on 3 February Secretary of State will have single-handedly dismantled that, on his estimate, the housing bill would go up by any notion that compassionate conservatism is truly a £1 billion over the course of this Parliament. So how is reality. This simply cannot be right, and it needs to be this Bill going to save money on housing benefit? looked at again. Alison Seabeck: Before I ask my question, I need to Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): I support the crucial draw the House’s attention to the entry in the Register points that my right hon. Friend is making, but has he of Members’ Financial Interests for my right hon. noted that the impact assessment on the proposed changes Friend the Member for Greenwich and Woolwich to DLA makes no mention of the impact on carers? (Mr Raynsford), with whom I have an indirect interest: There clearly will be a consequential impact on carers, he is my partner. Now I can get on with my question. depending on what benefits the people for whom they My right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, care receive and which rates of the daily living component Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne) has mentioned the increase in or the mobility component will entitle carers to claim costs resulting from the impact of rents going up to carers allowances. There is no mention of that whatever. 80% of market value. The Localism Bill contains measures Is my right hon. Friend aware of whether the Government designed to put homeless people straight into the private have even made an estimate of the number of carers rented sector. That will put further pressure on that affected, and if so, why it has not been published? sector, which is already being squeezed, and push rents up. There is no evidence that rents will come down. Mr Byrne: I am not aware of those estimates, and I Does he agree that the Government’s left hand does not hope that we will have a long and important debate know what the right hand is doing? about carers this afternoon and in Committee. Several hon. Members rose— Mr Byrne: That is the evidence from the Mayor of London and the Secretary of State for Communities Mr Byrne: I will give way in a moment. and Local Government. My final point is about the small question of whether the Bill will actually save any money in and of itself. Sajid Javid (Bromsgrove) (Con): At the last election, The Bill would save money if it got people back to the Labour party manifesto contained a pledge to reform work, but it will not create a single job. By the time we housing benefit to ensure that the people claiming it get to Royal Assent, there will still be five people would not live in the kind of homes that ordinary chasing every job in this country, and for every 120 of working families could not afford. We believe in that us, there will still be 10 people chasing every job. The policy. Is the right hon. Gentleman now renouncing it? only way that this Government are going to save money through welfare reform is by cutting the benefits of Mr Byrne: Not at all. The point that we are making is working families. Indeed, once we take out the shift to a about the way in which this reform has been adopted lower form of uprating, we see that half the benefit cuts and steamrollered through, and about the lack of 947 Welfare Reform Bill9 MARCH 2011 Welfare Reform Bill 948

[Mr Byrne] My real point to the Secretary of State in this debate about principles is this: in the debate ahead, let us consultation between the Department for Communities together put aside the politics of fear and division, and and Local Government and the Department for Work let us have the politics of hope—people’s hope for a job, and Pensions. This has been so mismanaged that many the hope that they can get the help that they need, and people—the Mayor of London, Shelter, the Secretary the hope that they can get on and move up in work. of State for Communities and Local Government—are That is what welfare reform should be about. That is the now saying that the cost of housing benefit could go up. instinct expressed in our amendment, and I hope that Surely that is not the DWP’s intention. We need a bit the House will back it this afternoon. more detail about a policy that might actually deliver the necessary savings on housing benefit. Several hon. Members rose— Angie Bray: I was recently talking to some constituents Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. A lot of in Acton, and I discovered that these proposals for Members wish to participate in the debate, and we have changes to housing benefit are among the most popular introduced a six-minute time limit on Back-Bench speeches, proposals that the Government have introduced. My with the usual amount of injury time for up to two constituents like the idea that it pays to work, and that interventions. Clearly, however, Members do not have those on benefit will not be able to afford better houses to take interventions and, if they do not, that will allow than those in low-paid work can afford. They also more people to speak. wonder why it has taken so long for any Government to introduce a measure that is simply fair, regardless of the 2.26 pm money it might save. They wonder why the Labour Government never did anything about this when they Mr Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con): I had the chance to do so. welcome this opportunity to support the Bill, which will bring about probably the biggest change in the welfare Mr Byrne: I am sure that the hon. Lady will have set state for 60 years. I disagree with the right hon. Member out, with equal eloquence, the view of the Mayor of for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne) on certain London that the measures might actually cost more points. The Bill is about helping people into work and taxpayers’ money than they will save. establishing big principles for the future, and it really is not good enough to make a speech saying, “We want to Jim Shannon: Will the right hon. Gentleman give help people into work,” but then to deny the means to way? do that. He is saying that the Bill should not go ahead. Mr Byrne: I will take a couple more interventions in a He is saying that the details—which should be debated, moment. I agree with him on that—are sufficient to allow him to deny this major Bill a Second Reading. Well, he is I want to put on record my thanks to the scores of wrong about that. He has issues that he rightly wants to charities and campaign groups that have helped to brief discuss in Committee, and he has the support of numerous us and offered to work with us to draw up amendments groups throughout the country that want those points to improve the Bill in Committee. I am even more of detail to be considered. Yes, he is right about that, grateful to them for their commitment to mobilise their but, my goodness, he is wrong to say that the Bill, which millions of members to help the Government understand does such important things, should not go ahead. why the Bill needs urgent reform. If the Government persist with the illusion that the Bill is immaculate, Let us consider the idea of the universal credit. We perfect and beyond improvement, and if they decline to will finally be able to say that a person will always be hear the voices of those millions of members of charities better off in work. That is a big principle; that is and campaign groups that have worked with us, we will important. I venture to suggest that the right hon. have no alternative but to vote against it on Third Gentleman agrees with that in his heart of hearts, yet he Reading. is saying that we should not introduce those measures. I notice that he is not prepared to listen to this— In today’s debate, we will hear a lot of statistics; we will also hear about this record and that proposal. I just Mr Byrne: I am listening. hope that the House will remember that, behind every statistic is a person—one of our constituents. They are Mr Heald: At the moment, it takes 45 minutes in a people like my constituent, Colin Hulme, who wrote to jobcentre to work out whether someone will be better me at the end of last week. Mr Hulme suffers from off in work or not. The Bill will change that at a stroke. Chiari malformation, a condition that affects about one People will know that they will always be better off in in 1,000 people. It hit him in 2007, and he had to give up work. That is an important principle. his job as an IT consultant and move home. He is a very My second point involves helping people to get into brave man. He told me that his disability living allowance work, giving them support through the “black box” means that approach. This is something that Labour agrees with; “at least I can pay my household bills, my kids will have food on the right hon. Gentleman actually trialled it when he the table and clothes for school. More importantly, it means my wife can provide the care that I need.” was in government, and it worked. It is recognised internationally— His view is that the Bill is about “cutting costs and shifting responsibilities rather than improving Mr Byrne: It is not in the Bill. the lives of sick and disabled people.” It is a worry for him, and I think that the whole House Mr Heald: Yes, it is in the Bill. The sanctions are will acknowledge that that worry is shared by millions about making the Work programme work. It will not of people up and down the country today. work without sanctions and without the measures in 949 Welfare Reform Bill9 MARCH 2011 Welfare Reform Bill 950 the Bill. To deny the Work programme to people all The Minister of State, Department for Work and over the country who should have help into work would Pensions (Chris Grayling): This will provide my hon. be a big mistake. The right hon. Gentleman should Friend with an extra minute to conclude his remarks. support the principle behind the Bill. We very much welcome the work of the Select Committee, and I assure him that the points that he and the Select My third point is that it is essential to make proper Committee raise will help us to shape some of the training available so that people can avail themselves of outstanding issues and the Committee debates that lie those training opportunities and then get the jobs that ahead. are available in this country. There are 500,000 jobs advertised in the jobcentres every month, but many of them are jobs for which people do not have the necessary Mr Heald: I thank my right hon. Friend for that. One skills. To introduce a system, through the “black box”, encouraging development is that many of the proposals that will enable people to acquire those skills and get in the recent Select Committee report on housing benefit into those jobs is something good, and it is something change—proposals for improvements such as monitoring that the right hon. Gentleman should support. the changes as they are implemented—were accepted when the Government responded to it. It is particularly As for whether jobs are available, when the right hon. welcome that the original proposal for people to lose Gentleman’s party were in government many jobs were 10% of their benefits after 12 months has been abandoned. created, as he said, but the problem is that many of I see that the Chairman of the Select Committee is in them went to people who were not from this country her place, and she may catch the Deputy Speaker’s eye and had not been languishing on benefits for years. in a moment; we are all pleased that the Committee has Members of the Select Committee visited Burnley earlier been able to make a difference in that way. this week and we met people who were being helped to Finally, let me say a few words about how the contracts move from benefits into work. We found that many of for the Work programme are dealt with. It is important them did not like the work capability assessments, so I to have proper implementation. hope that it will be possible for the Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, my right hon. Charlie Elphicke: With housing benefit rising 45% in Friend the Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling) recent years, does my hon. Friend agree that it is a to make the Harrington changes before that scheme is matter for serious concern? rolled out nationally. I see him nodding. Some people there had not worked for 10 years, and said that they Mr Heald: Yes, absolutely right. It is important to were pleased to have the opportunity to be trained and bear down on that through the sort of changes now to look for a job. proposed. Burnley is not an area where there are as many jobs To return to the Work programme contracts, it is as there are in Hertfordshire, which I represent, but important to monitor carefully the performance of the even in areas where there are not many jobs, it is wrong contractors and sub-contractors to ensure that there is to say to someone who could work, “No, we’re not an equal level across the country. The Select Committee going to do anything about it; we’re not going to train looked at the issue in a previous report on a pilot you; we’re not going to give you those chances; we’re scheme in Glasgow. We felt that there were differences not going to provide the Work programme.” By denying between the performance of the different contractors. this Bill a Second Reading, the right hon. Member for Clearly, if there are weaknesses, it is important to Birmingham, Hodge Hill would be depriving people of address them, for the sake of all the people who want to all those things. find work. I am grateful for the opportunity to support Let us take some of the other issues that the right this great Bill. hon. Gentleman raised, such as child care. The Secretary of State has said from the Dispatch Box that there will 2.35 pm be child care; the black box works only if child care is Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab): This is available. Support for single parents to get into work is huge Bill with a huge amount in it, so it is impossible to necessary, but it is to be provided. If the right hon. cover it all in a six-minute speech. I always call my Gentleman wants to talk about the details in Committee, Select Committee colleagues my hon. Friends, and I we would all fully understand that. I believe that it is a shall point out that our report on housing benefit, mistake for him to try to deny this Bill a Second which my hon. Friend the Member for North East Reading. Hertfordshire (Mr Heald) mentioned, will be debated in Time is whizzing by, but I would like to make two Westminster Hall tomorrow afternoon. I hope that further points. Child support is an important issue in many Members will come along so that we can go into the Bill, and it has been troubling for a long time. If greater detail than we can today. Other elements of the single parents are to get into work, it is important for Bill include the abolition of the social fund, and the them to be able to rely on child support payments moving of responsibility for council tax benefit to local coming in. America has a system whereby, once the authorities and how that cuts across the universal benefit figure is set, it is automatically deducted from the salary principle and the sanctions regime; I shall not have time of the parent who has to pay it. In this country we have to go into that, but perhaps others will. always denied that possibility, and said that we should The biggest fundamental change to the welfare system not do that. However, if we are to say to many lone in the Bill is, of course, the proposal for the introduction parents, “Look, we really want you to go to work”—and of a universal credit. As has already been said, and as we shall be saying that to a lot more lone parents—we confirmed in almost all the briefing papers I have must find ways of ensuring that the essential payments received, the idea of a universal credit has been accepted from the other parent come through. in principle. I have always said, however, that the devil is 951 Welfare Reform Bill9 MARCH 2011 Welfare Reform Bill 952

[Dame Anne Begg] might be a case for reform, but this is a wholesale replacement. That is what worries people, particularly in the detail. That is where the problem lies for Labour when the evidence suggests that it is going to be based Members, who are well aware that we do not yet have heavily on the test. much of the detail. Discussion this afternoon has been about the test for Despite what the Secretary of State said today, we disability living allowance—but our experience is of the still do not have any detail on how child care will be work capability assessment. We know that that is discredited incorporated into the universal credit. We know that and not fit for purpose, and disabled people fear that housing costs will be included, but we do not know how that is what is going to be imposed. As soon as the they will be dealt with. We are not sure about the Government announce a proposal to change or reform disability premium or about the issues that my right a measure in order to make a 20% budget saving, hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill suspicions enter people’s minds. Given the Government’s (Mr Byrne) raised about passported benefits, free proposal to remove the mobility element of disability school meals and all the other aspects of the present living allowance from those in residential homes, it is no benefit system that put significant amounts of money wonder that some people are now frightened. into the hands of those who have the least. That often I realise that most the time allotted to me has gone, includes people in work, but low-paid work. As I say, we but I want to say something about the proposal to do not yet know from the Bill how all those matters will withdraw contributory employment and support allowance be dealt with; we will not know until the regulations after only one year. I believe that the Government come out. should reconsider. I have always said that it is easy to We know that carer’s allowance will be outside the reduce welfare bills: all that is necessary is to stop giving universal credit, but we do not know how kinship carers people any money—and that is what the proposed will be treated. Changes are proposed to the disability withdrawal of the allowance would do. living allowance, which is the key benefit that allows carers to access their benefits, and a lot of questions remain to be answered. Glenda Jackson: My hon. Friend, and other members of the Work and Pensions Committee, will be aware Furthermore, we still do not know what the marginal that one of the most shocking pieces of evidence presented deduction rates will be. We know that 65p in the pound to the Committee was that under the present system, in is proposed, but when we look in detail at someone in which people are tested by Atos, it is not unusual for an low-paid work paying income tax, we find that the Atos centre to be completely inaccessible to the disabled. marginal deduction rate will go up—and in connection Furthermore, we have been hearing for some time that with child care costs, it could go up by more than 100%. when people appeal against the denial of benefits, whatever Child care costs will, in any case, go up, simply because those benefits may be, a staggering number of appeals more people will need child care if the Government are upheld. What is particularly frightening is the fact proceed with their proposals to start imposing obligations that there may be a long gap between refusal of an on lone parents to start looking for work when their application and the upholding of an appeal—a problem youngest child reaches five. Extra expenses are therefore that will inevitably increase in the absence of the detailed associated with the Bill, but we do not know how they provisions that the Bill so markedly lacks. are to be dealt with. We do not yet know how some of the claims will be Dame Anne Begg: Indeed. We heard on Monday, in fulfilled—whether, for example, the Bill will succeed in Burnley, that the appeal process can take anything from making work pay. The previous Government did make a year to 18 months. There are real doubts about the work pay in almost every case—apart from where there ability of the tribunal system to cope. were high housing costs and many children. What we did not do was make work pay enough. Chris Grayling: At present, the appeal process takes Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): I thank 17 weeks on average. A year or more is absolutely not the hon. Lady, who is such a marvellous Chair of the the norm. I would be happy to discuss the matter in the Select Committee, for giving way. Does she agree that it Select Committee, but I should grateful if the hon. Lady disappointing that the Labour party is not supporting would note what I have said for the record. Second Reading of this Bill, because the points that she rightly raises are the sort of detailed issues that could Dame Anne Begg: Interestingly enough, a constituent addressed in Committee? of mine is having to wait for six months. I thought that that was ridiculous enough, but two or three weeks ago, Dame Anne Begg: I hope that they will be addressed when the Committee was taking evidence, we were told in Committee, but the problem is that there are still too that someone was having to wait for between nine many unknowns about the Bill. That makes it impossible months and a year. Perhaps the Minister should talk to at this stage to give that kind of support to it. That is his officials, because it seems that in some areas, at least, the danger. the wait is much longer than 17 months. There are reasons for suspicion, particularly among I mentioned the withdrawal of contributory ESA disabled people, about the Bill’s intentions. The Bill was after a year. Many of the people who will lose that published two days before the consultation on what benefit will not qualify for a means-tested benefit, amounts to the abolition of disability living allowance particularly in my constituency, where there will probably was announced. Again, we do not know the details. I do be a partner or someone else in the household who has not understand why the Government need to change an income. Such people will lose all the money that they the name of the disability living allowance. Yes, there have. 953 Welfare Reform Bill9 MARCH 2011 Welfare Reform Bill 954

We have heard today what has been said by cancer A number of Members have expressed concern about charities, but it is not just cancer sufferers who will be the changes in employment and support allowance. As affected. Many other people may not have been given a the hon. Member for Aberdeen South (Dame Anne diagnosis, or may have had a mental breakdown from Begg) pointed out, and as the Secretary of State which they have not recovered. It may take at least a acknowledged earlier, there is particular concern about year for those people to get anywhere near the Work the decision to time-limit contributory ESA. I hope that programme, although they will be in the Work activity during the Bill’s passage the Government will consider, group because their disabilities will not be severe enough for instance, whether the period before the cut-off should for them to qualify for membership of the support be longer than a year, whether it is appropriate to group. They will be told to come back after another include the 13-week assessment period in the calculation, three months, because they will still not be fit for work. and whether those with certain conditions could either They may find that they have used up the whole year’s be entirely exempt from the cut-off or be allowed extensions worth of contributory benefit before they are anywhere at the discretion of Jobcentre Plus staff. A good many near even looking for a job. Many with other illnesses people will be affected by the limit, especially if, as is and disabilities will fall into the same category. currently planned, it is applied retrospectively. I was going to read out a letter from Heather Bennett I mentioned the controversy surrounding disability that would have summed up the position far better than living allowance. As I have said, I am delighted that the I have. Unfortunately I have no time to do so, but I ask proposals affecting those in residential care are being the Government please to reconsider. reconsidered. However, concern remains about the increase from three months to six months of the period before people are eligible to apply for the allowance. I understand 2.45 pm the logic of trying to ensure that it is given only to Jenny Willott (Cardiff Central) (LD): I welcome the people with long-term conditions, but in the case of Bill, especially the introduction of the universal credit sudden-onset conditions such as cancer, strokes or accidents, system. It is a huge improvement on the current over- the greatest financial need is at the start. I hope that complicated and burdensome benefit system, which has thought will be given to whether people in those spiralled out of control under a number of previous circumstances can be helped to deal with the serious Governments. I think that several elements of the Bill financial implications of such conditions. require further work, and I look forward to their being I agree with the hon. Member for Aberdeen South discussed today and during the Bill’s later stages, but I that a huge number of issues could be raised in relation do not consider that a good enough reason not to give it to the Bill, but today I can focus on only a few of them. a Second Reading. The last issue that I want to raise is the total cap on I am glad that a couple of earlier proposals have benefits. Again, I understand the rationale. Many working already been reconsidered. Both have been mentioned people with low incomes find it very difficult to see by other Members. I am delighted that the Government others receiving more money from the state than they listened to Liberal Democrats, the Select Committee themselves can earn, and I understand their frustration and others throughout the United Kingdom who called and resentment. However, we have yet not been given for the proposal for a 10% cut in housing benefit for enough detail to establish the precise impact of the those who have received jobseeker’s allowance for a year Government’s proposal. to be dropped, because it was unfair. It is very good Some people also resent the fact that families, particularly news that the proposal has indeed been dropped, and I large families, are living on benefits, but the choices am sure that Members on both sides of the House made by parents are not the fault of their children. By welcome that. the time the Bill has completed its passage, we must I am also glad that the Government are listening to ensure that any cap has been set at an appropriate level, those who are concerned about the removal of the that there is no prospect of children being pushed into mobility component of disability living allowance from poverty, and that families—especially in London, where those in residential care. A number of Members have housing costs are so high—will not be disproportionately mentioned that today, and I expect that it will be hit. Given that the housing benefit cap is £400, a total mentioned again before the end of the debate. I am benefits cap of £500 could leave a large family with just pleased that the proposals have gone back to the drawing £100 a week to cover all their other living costs. I hope board, and I hope that the Government will take account that the Government will consider excluding housing of the serious concern that many Members have expressed benefit from the calculation, or, preferably, excluding and will, I am sure, express again during the Bill’s child benefit. Given that child benefit reflects the size of subsequent stages. families, that could have an impact on child poverty. I am very concerned about the implications of that policy, I welcome wholeheartedly some measures that are in and we will need to know the impact on children, in the Bill, as well as the absence of some measures that particular, before I can agree to support it. are not. As I said earlier, those that I welcome include the introduction of universal credit, which will finally Most of the Bill is well thought out with a strong end the absurd circumstances in which people can be sense of principle, and I wholeheartedly support the better off on benefits than in work. I am sure that many overwhelming majority of its measures. I welcome the Members have met people who are frustrated and desperate moves to simplify the benefits system and to create a because they know that although their lives would be more individually tailored welfare system, but I also better if they were in work, financially they would not have concerns, and I hope the Government— be better off in work. I think that everyone should welcome the fact that universal credit will put right that Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. Time is wrong. up. I call Mr Tom Clarke. 955 Welfare Reform Bill9 MARCH 2011 Welfare Reform Bill 956

2.50 pm That remains our determination today. I trust that the Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) Government will take on board the view expressed by (Lab): I should begin by declaring an interest: I am such an influential and informed body. co-chair, with Lord Rix, of the all-party group on Dame Anne Begg: It is, perhaps, worth putting the learning disability. record straight on DLA. This afternoon, the impression Members will not be surprised to learn that I intend has been given that there are no checks on people on to oppose the Bill and support the reasoned amendment. DLA and that they are just left to languish, but everyone In the short time available to me, I shall speak in direct on DLA gets a letter every year saying they must report opposition to this Welfare Reform Bill, because if it is any changes to their condition. implemented it will devastate the lives of people who are sick, people with disabilities and many vulnerable Mr Clarke: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who has people throughout Britain, not least in my constituency. considerable knowledge of these important matters. Since before I was elected to this House, I have firmly Even today, we have heard much about the deficit, held to the principle that people with disabilities should but the sick, the poor and the vulnerable in our society have the same opportunities as everyone else, no less simply do not deserve to be punished for the financial and no more, and I have to say that the election of this greed and recklessness of the banking sector. That is new coalition Government does not in the least diminish what this Bill is proposing, and if anyone doubts that the need for a principled stand to be taken on behalf of then let them address the planned 20% reduction in people who require support. That is because of the DLA. We are cutting a lifeline on the basis not of a highly punitive measures that are being proposed, and necessity, but of a statistic plucked out of thin air. which have not been denied today, and I hope to have I work closely with disability organisations that are at the time to address some of them later. the forefront of supporting disabled people and their On Tuesday 30 November I secured a Westminster families at every stage of their lives. Today, I speak up Hall Adjournment debate on Government plans to on behalf of the many constituents who have been in remove the mobility component of the disability living touch with me on this subject. Indeed, I have had more allowance for disabled people who live in a residential representations on this Bill from both constituents and establishment. At the beginning of that debate, I said: disability organisations than on any other Bill in my “To put that into context, it is important to establish which entire time in Parliament, and it is a bit too late for the members of our society qualify for that benefit. The first, and by Minister to make the intervention he has just made. far the most common group, is where the claimant is unable—or Organisations working in this field have long been virtually unable—to walk. The second group consists of people striving to achieve a balance between providing practical who are both blind and deaf. The third category comprises people help and listening to those who need support, and that with a severe mental impairment, and/or severe behavioural problems. In truth, we could not be discussing people who are more vulnerable informs me in this debate. Incidentally, almost all the or deserving in our communities.”—[Official Report, 30 November caring organisations, from Mencap to Scope to Enable 2010; Vol. 519, c. 197WH.] in Scotland, are united in condemnation of what is I also pointed out that of all the proposals on welfare on offer. reform, this is the most brutal and cruel. I have had no We are told the Government plan to simplify the assurances on this issue during the course of the debate benefit system for claimants and to remove financial disincentives to moving into work. I have no problem Chris Grayling: It might be helpful to put on the with those two objectives if that is what is really meant. record that we have been very clear that we intend As my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen South mobility provision to continue for people in care homes. (Dame Anne Begg) said however, the devil remains in There is an overlap between a number of provisions the detail. Where is the commitment to promoting however, and we have formed the view that it is better social justice for disabled people? We have rising not to include a stand-alone clause in this Bill, but to unemployment on the one hand and spending cuts on include the issue as a whole as part of our review the other, with reduced access to social care services as a establishing exactly what needs to be done and through consequence of reductions in local government funding. which channels. The latter is hitting disabled people disproportionately hard all over the United Kingdom, further compounding Mr Clarke: So in place of the clear threats we had the poverty and disadvantage they already face. There from no lesser a person than the Prime Minister and in appears to be a lack of recognition that we are talking the face of a lack of clarification today from the Secretary here not about people who are fraudulent or feckless or of State, we are expected to wait for a review. I am sorry who fear work, but about people who are incapacitated to have to tell the Minister that, as my right hon. Friend and cannot work and therefore must be supported. the Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne) While disabled people who live at home are to keep the said in opening for the Opposition, organisations mobility component of their benefits—which is as it representing disabled people throughout the country should be—it cannot be right, it cannot be fair and it are simply not prepared to accept what appear to be certainly cannot be equitable for disabled people living assurances at the 13th hour, given what is written in the in residential homes to be hammered with a 69% cut in Bill and given the opposition to my colleagues’ amendment. overall benefits. I urge the Government to consider the opinions of For that reason and many others, I ask the House to voluntary organisations and of the independent Social consider very carefully the words printed in the Bill, Security Advisory Committee, which obviously took because it is the Bill that we are considering today. We the same view as I did: are being asked to give it a Second Reading, and on the “We consider that the proposal to remove the mobility component basis of its contents and what has been said by Ministers, from people in residential care should not go ahead.” I cannot support the Government. 957 Welfare Reform Bill9 MARCH 2011 Welfare Reform Bill 958

2.59 pm introduction of the universal credit, which will mean that once the Government’s reforms have taken effect, Mr David Evennett (Bexleyheath and Crayford) (Con): people will be able to see for the first time that they are I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this debate better off for each hour they spend working rather than on a Bill that will radically reform our welfare system, being on benefits. The reforms will ensure that work and I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Secretary pays. of State on proposing these much-needed and long-overdue reforms to our benefits system. He is well known and Benefit fraud has also been a problem, costing the respected for his work on social justice, and the Bill taxpayer about £1.5 billion every year. That is simply marks a genuine step forward. I also commend him on not acceptable. I hope that the measures in the Bill will the thoughtful, moderate and constructive speech he send a clear signal that fraud and the abuse of the gave this afternoon. benefit system will not be tolerated. This measure is to be supported as it places individual Issues have been raised this afternoon that we will responsibility at the heart of the benefits system. That need to consider carefully, including the point about the approach will, in general, be welcomed across the country disabled. I recognise—and I know that the Government and certainly by the vast majority in my constituency. recognise—the important role that cash benefits play in The welfare system under the previous Labour supporting the disabled in overcoming the daily problems Government became a welfare culture in which people that they face. Life is often more difficult and more claimed everything they could. People not only acted expensive for those with a disability. I hope that the irresponsibly but were encouraged to do so; as a result, personal independence payment system that the some people were better off claiming state handouts Government plan to introduce will be fairer and simpler, than their neighbours who were working. To have 5 million allowing vulnerable people to lead active and independent people living on out-of-work benefits and 2 million lives. Changes must be made to ensure that those who children growing up in households where no one works do not need personal independence payments do not is a disgrace, and the Opposition ought to be ashamed receive them. It is important that the assessment system of that record after 13 years in power. is right and fair and takes into account genuine needs. Change over time should be noted to prevent abuse, as There are many problems with the welfare system well as to help to ensure that those with growing and that the Government inherited. It is complex, bureaucratic additional needs caused by disability get what they need and contains perverse incentives to keep claiming rather than and genuinely deserve. I am pleased that the payments work. We have heard the interventions—a 45% increase will not be means-tested and will provide people with in housing benefit since 1999 is an incredible figure and support when they are both in and out of work. such problems cost the taxpayer a fortune. The Labour party had 13 years to simplify the benefits system and The disabled issue is emotive and I have received a to increase the incentive to work and it did nothing but considerable amount of correspondence from constituents make the problems worse. The Opposition amendment about it. Some of the information that they have been is merely a prescription for doing nothing. given has unfortunately not been accurate, which is to be regretted. Those who can work should work; that is the responsible thing to do and the best route out of poverty. Our aim should be to encourage people to take jobs and I believe Fiona O’Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab): On the subject that most people want to work and to find a job. The of inaccurate information, a duty press officer from the Government’s role should be to help match people to Department for Work and Pensions told the BBC last the vacancies on offer, to ensure that they have the skills night that the Government were not going to reduce the they need to take on jobs, and to provide individual qualifying period from three to six months. Can we support in the meantime to help people to get there. The have clarity on that issue? Bill offers opportunities for change to enable people to do that. Mr Evennett: I understand the hon. Lady’s point and It is right to place a 12-month limit on contributions- we have had some clarity from the Secretary of State based employment and support allowance claims. That already this afternoon. It is important that we urge ensures that those who need support when they lose those on the Front Bench to take into account the needs their job receive payment and underlines the principle of the disabled, and I believe that they will do that in the that they cannot claim for as long as they want. I hope policies that they seek to implement. that the introduction of a claimant contract will increase I strongly commend the work done in the Bill and the individual responsibility by ensuring that people turn further consultation that will be undertaken by Ministers up for their appointments and interviews. The inclusion to ensure that all the needs of the disabled are considered of a personal pledge to take up reasonable offers of when we bring in the new annual assessment. I welcome work, with financial penalties for those who do not the fact that there will be an annual assessment for keep their obligations, is also a necessary reform. those who are disabled so that their real needs can be Placing a fixed limit on the maximum amount that reassessed if necessary to ensure that they get what they any one household can claim in benefits, together with need and what they deserve. the new housing benefit cap, will mean that the financial I am running out of time and, as other hon. Members barriers to employment will be removed, and that will have said, it is very difficult to cover all the aspects of be fairer for the taxpayer who will no longer subsidise such a complex Bill in such a short time, but I want to high rents for others. A regular complaint from my commend the work being done in further education by constituents is that, as workers and taxpayers, they pay my hon. Friend the Minister for Further Education, for some people to have a better life than they do when Skills and Lifelong Learning to ensure that people get they are in full-time work. I therefore welcome the the necessary training to take up the jobs on offer. 959 Welfare Reform Bill9 MARCH 2011 Welfare Reform Bill 960

[Mr Evennett] As I said earlier, I want to focus my remarks on the most vulnerable. Many of the extremely vulnerable I believe that the Bill will deliver real progress from a people who have contacted me are suffering from mental coalition Government who are determined to reform a health issues and autistic spectrum disorders. Autism is system that is unwieldy, unfair and unacceptable. The a spectrum condition, which means that, despite some Bill should be commended and supported this evening. common characteristics, it affects sufferers in different ways and to differing extents. ASDs, as they are commonly 3.6 pm known, are largely “hidden” disorders that affect a Julie Elliott (Sunderland Central) (Lab): There have sufferer’s ability to communicate with others, which already been some excellent speeches in this debate on means that the annual review will be a real problem. one of the most important issues that we have discussed ASD sufferers span the whole disability spectrum. Some so far in this Parliament. Before I talk about the issues, I are able to live relatively independent lives; others need want to align myself with the comments made by my a lifetime of care or receipt of specialist support. hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen South (Dame Approximately one in 100 children and 350,000 adults Anne Begg) about the problems with the Bill. of working age suffer from ASDs. Of the latter group, I support any attempt to reform the welfare system only 15% are in full-time employment in the UK. The for the better, to make it easier to access and understand disability living allowance has been a key benefit, providing and to make people claim and receive the benefits to for these people the help and support that the additional which they are entitled, and some measures in the Bill costs of their disability require. The £1 billion cut over attempt to do that. For example, if universal credit can the next three years, when the DLA is replaced by the be made to work, that will be a good thing, but, as yet, I personal independence payment— am not convinced that that will be the case. I await with interest the details of how the proposals will work. The Jim Shannon: At the beginning of her remarks the jury is out for me on that point. hon. Lady said that reform is necessary, which we all In the run-up to Second Reading, I have been contacted accept. However, does she share my concern that a by many people who are extremely worried about the target to reduce by 20% the number of people in receipt proposed changes and who are worried and frightened of DLA is the wrong approach, and that the issue about the impact that those changes will have on their should be dealt with through reform alone? lives. The lack of detail about some of the proposals is one of the problems. The people contacting me have Julie Elliott: I totally agree with the hon. Gentleman. been, in the main, among the most vulnerable in our Reform is about making the benefit fit the individual society. That was why I felt that I had to speak in this need. If the benefit needs to be paid and if it fits the debate; I believe that, as an MP, I should speak up for need, it would not be wrong if it went up by 20%. the most vulnerable people I represent. It is vital that the Bill does not disproportionately hit There are many reasons why I cannot support the Bill those with autism and other disabilities, who are all too as it stands, many of which are set out in the reasoned often overlooked despite being among the most vulnerable amendment. The uncertainty about how the universal in our society. The goal surely must be to support credit will work is creating fear for those people for people with autism who cannot work, so that they can whom benefits form all or part of their income. The Bill live a full and happy life. However, for those who are seems to contain disincentives to work, and that surely able to work, DLA has been crucial in helping them cannot be the intention. into the workplace. Without the DLA, people with I come from an area with long-standing high autism would be socially isolated and more likely to unemployment and I firmly believe that we need to suffer from poor mental health. The reform of DLA incentivise work and to give people the opportunity to may lead to people with mental health problems missing be aspirational about their lives and the chance to make out, which could have huge knock-on cost impacts on things better for themselves. Although there is high health and social care services. Surely this cannot be unemployment in Sunderland and the north-east, there this Bill’s motivation—to give less support to people is also a strong work ethic. I was brought up in a family with autism and to increase the knock-on costs to other and community that believed that people should work Government Departments. As it stands, that is what the hard and do their best, and I do not believe that that has Bill is in danger of doing. Its implications for people changed over the years in the majority of families. with autism could lead to confusion and frustration, Sometimes, people need help to do that. Such help which in turn could lead to more serious health problems. includes the tax credit system, but there has been no The Government must ensure that the needs of those clarification on what level of support parents will get with ASDs are taken into account. for child care. The disincentives for people who save, who will be barred from the universal credit, seem The proposals for face-to-face assessments are in unbelievable. themselves creating great anxiety among people with autism and with mental health issues. ASDs are a very As the Bill disadvantages people suffering from cancer specialist area of medicine, and the doctors who deal or mental illness through the withdrawal of the contributory with such disorders are the people who understand employment support allowance, it is hitting hardest them and their implications. Many of the doctors those whose needs are probably the highest. undertaking the assessments will not have a full Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD): Will the hon. Lady understanding of ASDs and the specific needs of the give way? people who suffer from them. When a detailed assessment by a specialist has already been undertaken, what is the Julie Elliott: No, not at the moment, although I need for a further assessment, for benefit purposes, to might in a minute. be carried out by someone without that expertise? 961 Welfare Reform Bill9 MARCH 2011 Welfare Reform Bill 962

As I said at the beginning of my speech, for a welfare that the flaws in the system are remedied. Although I reform Bill to work, it must be, as it says, a “reform” Bill congratulate the Government on addressing the way in that makes benefits easier to access and to understand. which people with mental health conditions were treated under the previous Government, I would like a reassurance 3.13 pm that, where necessary, carers will be able to accompany those with particular conditions to their work capability Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Aylesford) (Con): May assessment. Assessments of the needs and suitability for I begin by congratulating the Government on introducing work of those with mental health conditions must be the Bill? I firmly believe that its proposals have the more comprehensive, compassionate and consistent. I potential radically to reform our welfare system for the welcome the Government’s broad acceptance of Professor better, and we are in dire need of such reform. Those Harrington’s review of these issues. trapped within the system, and the millions of taxpayers The Bill presents the opportunity to restore faith in a who pay for it, will note that Labour intends to vote broken system. Undoubtedly, we must provide the means against such reform later today. for those who are out of work to re-enter employment, It is vital that we assess the broken welfare system while supporting those in genuine need. A system based that this Government inherited in order that we put the on conditionality, with strict requirements for out-of-work need for reform into perspective. Under Labour, we benefits, will also be fairer for the taxpayer. Most bore witness to ballooning welfare expenditure, an increase importantly, we must shift the emphasis from what in workless households and the absurdity of some housing claimants cannot do to what they can do. benefit awards dwarfing the average family income. The These bold welfare reforms must be carefully Government simply must urgently address that appalling implemented, and people will be understandably anxious legacy by establishing fairness and an ethos of individual about how they will affect their lives, but I share the responsibility as cornerstones of our welfare system. Government’s belief that they are necessary and for the I welcome the notion of a universal credit and the better, and I am confident that, in time, this will be proven. merging of a number of working-age benefits. By replacing housing benefit, the child tax credit, the working tax credit, income support and the employment and support 3.18 pm allowance with one single benefit, we replace a tired, Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): I recognise confusing welfare system with a simpler, more transparent that a lot of Members want to take part in the debate, one. This simplification will help to combat the serious and I want to make just a few points about the possible issue of benefit fraud, which is estimated to cost the effects of changing the disability living allowance and taxpayer £1.5 billion per year—another reason why the the impact on young people with cancer and their Bill ought to be welcomed on both sides of the House. families. Undoubtedly the most progressive aspect of the universal Receiving a diagnosis of cancer for your child is credit is its potential to incentivise those who are devastating. Each day, 10 families get that terrible news. unemployed back into work, with no one left worse off For my family, that news came on 31 July 2007, when by entering employment. The previous Government what we thought was a viral issue with our son was in created a welfare system that discouraged people from fact leukaemia. Yourlife and that of your family changes working. As a result, there is a troubling number of at that moment: you are scared, frightened, terrified—you cases of people languishing on benefits who have become do not know what is going to happen next—and when accustomed to that way of life. I see that in my own the treatment starts, it is quite an aggressive process. It constituency. is a long, helter-skelter journey; there is no quick fix. I am proud that this Government recognise that more For girls the protocol is two years, and for boys it is must be done to help get these people back into three. Children will respond very differently to employment, either through personalised support for chemotherapy. Some will respond relatively well, whereas those who are seeking work or through tough sanctions others will get quite ill, but few get through it without for those who are not. Although the universal credit will any side effects. There will be times when things will be act first and foremost as a safety net for those out of fairly stable, with periods at home and out of hospital, work, it has motivation and conditionality at its heart, but there will be other times when you are back in and which, coupled with the Government’s Work programme, out of the hospital with an infection or some other which focuses on the long-term unemployed, ought to problem, which affects the family as a whole. be welcomed. The financial impact of this illness on your family is I visited Canada a few years ago to study its rehabilitation probably the last thing you think about when you are programmes for those who had suffered some kind of told the devastating news, but it must be taken into personal injury, and I was struck by the completely account because, like the treatment period, it goes on different mentality. The programmes, which were often for years, rather than days, weeks or months. We were as much about psychological as physical rehabilitation, fortunate because I have a well-paid job and an were entirely designed to get people back into work. understanding employer. In my case, two parents can Canada’s insurance system simply does not encourage a share the care, we have the use of a car, and we have a sit-at-home attitude; our current welfare system does supportive family and friends. Many people I have met precisely the opposite. and know were not in that position, which is why Although I am in no doubt about the positive impact disability living allowance is a very important, if limited, the universal credit will have on our welfare system, support, on which many people rely. there are areas that I believe we must be particularly I ask the House to consider what it is like being in a careful in addressing. By creating an overarching single hospital almost full time, day and night, perhaps with benefit, we have to take this opportunity to make sure another child at home who cannot really grasp what is 963 Welfare Reform Bill9 MARCH 2011 Welfare Reform Bill 964

[Mark Tami] Those words could have been spoken today by the Minister, but they were spoken by Tony Blair in 1997. In going on. Some people in this position are single parents. opposition, Blair understood the problem. He understood, Some cannot drive or do not own a car, so the very task even 14 long years ago, that our welfare system prevents of getting to and from hospital becomes a nightmare. people from living independent and self-fulfilling lives. Some do not have any family network or friends on He understood that it creates a segregated society, which whom they can rely. Perhaps their employer, who at first he stated was a “moral and economic evil.” In 1997, was very understanding, later requires them to come Labour’s manifesto promised: back to work, but as they are not sure what the next day “we will face up to the…issues that confront us. We will be the will bring they are not sure whether they can commit to party of welfare reform.” doing that. They start to use up their paid leave, then I see very little evidence of that, and, tied down by start to take unpaid leave, and then perhaps they give Members on the left, the party did nothing. up their job altogether. In this debate, we are having to deal with the tragedy A 2007 survey found that 83% of families incur that that inaction has left us. Millions of people of significant extra costs associated with their child’s cancer working age are locked in dependency on state benefits, and 68% get into actual financial difficulties. I think with little incentive to get off them. They can exploit a that the survey is wrong, because I believe that about system that provides hand-downs, rather than a hand 100% of people in this position find themselves incurring up—a system that has become the engine of social extra costs—I do not see how they can fail to do failure and has driven a culture of “work does not pay”. otherwise. The current qualifying period for DLA already That, in turn, has driven the importation of cheap creates problems, as it takes no account of the sudden labour, exacerbating the immigration problem. onset of many cancers—that point was made earlier. I hope that this Bill can mark the turn of the tide and Families need help at the earliest possible time, and that it will usher in a new era—one that we were doubling the qualifying period will only make matters promised in 1997 but that was never delivered. I hope far worse. I ask the Government to look at that again, this will be an era of reform that will transform this and I hope they do so. nation. The stakes might be high, but we cannot afford I also ask the Government to recognise that cancer to waver on welfare reform. We must deliver for the treatment is not a nice, smooth process; there are ups health of the nation, and I urge every Member to give and downs, and a failure of the treatment or a relapse the Bill their full support. will result in a different protocol being used, which again can cause a number of problems. My son went down the transplant route, and a lot of issues arise 3.27 pm there. Families may need just as much support a year or Malcolm Wicks (Croydon North) (Lab): It is a pleasure two years down the line as they did when they received to follow my Blairite colleague opposite. May I say, by the first news. There is no one-size-fits-all solution and way of introduction, that I judge, as many of us would, any assessment criteria must take account of that. The that wise social security policy seeks to relate the issues Government need to rethink and to listen to charities of benefits to the issue of employment? I would argue such as CLIC Sargent, which deal with the families day that we should start the discussion with work. I wish to in, day out and provide a very high level of care. They analyse the Bill and some of its proposals in that are the experts. Please listen to the experts and take important context, because surely for those able to their views on board. work the best social security policy is a job—things start from there. 3.24 pm I often quote William Beveridge at this stage, partly Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con): I welcome the because it reminds us that there was once an era of great Bill, which marks a point at which we can send out this liberal reform. In his famous 1942 report, he talked message: we cannot continue to spend on welfare as we about the giants of want, disease, ignorance, squalor have previously. Instead, we need to understand that and idleness standing in the way of social reconstruction there is no such thing as Government money, free to be once peace had come. He said that the giant of idleness, given out; there is only hard-earned taxpayers’ money, by which he meant unemployment, was the largest and which in these difficult times needs to be spent with fiercest of the giants and that if we did not overcome it caution and care. all the other social goals of peacetime reconstruction Over the past 13 years, we saw no evidence of that would be out of reach. If one thinks about the implications caution, as the total annual expenditure on benefits for health and education, one sees exactly and empirically mushroomed to £152 billion. Every year, £5.2 billion what he meant, so that is my starting point. was lost in overpayments, of which £1.5 billion was lost Skipping forward 65 years from the great Attlee to fraud. Some £3.5 billion was spent annually on reforms that implemented the Beveridge recommendations administration costs and paperwork alone. As we have and many others to the present day, it seems to me that heard from the Minister, other benefits rose, with the there are three issues or obstacles that we must address cost of housing benefit having increased from £11 billion or overcome if we are to get right the balance and to £20 billion since 1997. That is simply unsustainable relationship between what I still prefer to call social and we must act. security—I find the term “welfare” pejorative—and I wish to refer to the words of one commentator, who work. once said that The first issue is employment policy. Where is the “we have reached the limits of the public’s willingness simply to Government’s full employment policy? Is it their ambition fund an unreformed welfare system through ever higher taxes and to move back towards full employment? In my Croydon spending”.—[Official Report, 14 May 1997; Vol. 294, c. 65.] constituency, literally hundreds of job losses have just 965 Welfare Reform Bill9 MARCH 2011 Welfare Reform Bill 966 been announced at the Home Office’s the Border and work ethic among some individuals in some communities Immigration Agency.In addition, the council will contribute had the stuffing knocked out of it, and there are now hundreds of job losses and there will be job losses in the communities where three generations of people have health service with the reform of primary care trusts. been nowhere near a job for a very long time. We need That is just the start in an area that is very dependent on to think through the implications of that. public sector work. What we are seeing is not ambition Where people can work and where jobs are available, for full employment but a move towards further working-class people on our estates are angered by unemployment, which concerns me greatly. spongers and shirkers. Those people do exist and we One of the great tragedies is that many of our fine should not ignore that fact, but in a culture in which young people leaving school and getting vocational bankers can stick two fingers up to democracy, to qualifications and degrees are finding that no jobs are Parliament and to the Government and in which available. We must all think long and hard in the short, multinationals brag about avoiding paying tax, we have medium and longer term about whether we can somehow become an amoral, if not sometimes an immoral, economy. move towards a job guarantee for our young people, If we are to preach honesty and responsibility to the many of whom do so well in education and skills. We poor, as I think we must, although it can be difficult at will betray a generation if we cannot soon offer them times, then responsibility is also good enough for the work that suits their skills, creativity and qualifications. rich and powerful. On the contentious issue of immigration, it is clear to me, from a London perspective, that eastern European 3.34 pm immigration has made it more difficult for people on the margins of the labour market to get jobs. It is a Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) (Con): It is simple matter: if an employer is presented with a British an honour to follow the right hon. Member for Croydon person of whatever ethnic group who is not job-ready, North (Malcolm Wicks). I very much shared some of as opposed to someone from Lithuania or Poland who the sentiments that he expressed. His speech contained is clearly eager to work and will probably turn up on a good deal of common sense. I would not expect time, who will they employ? How, in those circumstances, anything else from a fellow Wolverhampton Wanderers can we enable British people to get the work that our fan; that is the least I would expect from him. I do not country owes them? think I am the third Blairite in a row to speak, but I will endeavour to add some thoughts, particularly from a Stephen Lloyd: That is an important point. Does the personal perspective. Six minutes is not long enough to right hon. Gentleman agree that a key area in the do justice to my full thoughts on the Bill, but I shall be Bill—within the black box that was discussed earlier—is brief. Hon. Members may be happy to hear that I do the fact that the Department will pay providers upwards not intend to use all of my allowance. of £14,000 to help into work people who have been This piece of legislation is a seminal Bill. It is one of away from work for a while and to sustain them in work the reasons that I hold the politics that I do. I am a over a couple of years? Does he agree that that is a Wolverhampton Member and Wolverhampton South positive step? West is a no-nonsense constituency, full of decent, hard-working folk who say it as it is and always wear Malcolm Wicks: Of course, which is why the Labour their heart on their sleeve. The sentiment that has been Government, under the former Secretary of State for repeatedly expressed to me is that the Bill has been a Work and Pensions, my right hon. Friend the Member long time coming. Its central ethos is that work always for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett), pays. I shall sum it up by recalling my personal experience established such policies with Jobcentre Plus. Of course of my father. that is the right thing to do. My father came to this country with less than £5 in The second of the three issues I mentioned is wage his pocket and no idea where he would sleep that night. levels. I recall from my history that the Speenhamland He took that risk not only because he wanted to live in a system was created in the late 18th century. As far as country that had choice, freedom and opportunity, but historians can judge, that was the first direct wage because he wanted to work. Within 48 hours of his subsidy in Britain. Since then, we have had a number of arrival, someone tapped him on the shoulder and said, policies, starting with family income supplement, tax “Do you know you can actually claim benefits?” That credits and so on that could be said to subsidise low was anathema to him; it was not even in his mind. He wages. I am proud that a Labour Government introduced came with the ethos of working, and working is what he the minimum wage, but Conservative Members will not has always done. That story has been replicated by be so proud that their party vehemently opposed it. As those of scores of my relatives, who came over to work we move back towards economic growth and greater and had the ethos of working hard at their core. affluence, should we be talking about not just a minimum I have actually been poor. I was brought up in poverty. wage but a living, or adequate, wage, not least for I say this to Opposition Members—to all Members, people who are employed by multinationals that make actually: there is no nobility in poverty. It is something large profits? Otherwise, the social security system will one strives to escape from. I went to a state school. My continue to subsidise low and sometimes exploitative friends divided into two camps: those who had the wages. ambition to move on, and those who, even then, in the The third issue is the work ethic, on which my hon. late ’70s and early ’80s, would tell me to my face that Friend the Member for Sunderland Central (Julie Elliott) they envisaged that the rest of their life would be on touched. I believe the work ethic is alive and well in benefits, and that they were quite happy to live that way. many parts of Britain. I also recognise that because of The Bill, through its ethos of making work pay, tackles the de-industrialisation during the Thatcher years the that problem head-on. 967 Welfare Reform Bill9 MARCH 2011 Welfare Reform Bill 968

[Paul Uppal] and does not close until 15 April. Abolishing the central fund and handing the emergency money to local authorities The right hon. Member for Croydon North said that without ring-fencing is likely to create a postcode lottery. a lot of people had the stuffing knocked out of them in It is not right that this provision is included when we do the 1980s. I will use a personal example. Many of the not know its full impact and people have not had a uncles that I referred to earlier lost their jobs because chance to submit their views. I strongly urge the Secretary they worked in industries in the midlands in that period, of State to withdraw any clauses on which there is still but almost all went on to establish their own businesses. open consultation. They were driven by ambition and the ethos of trying to One of the reforms in the Bill that will affect my better their lives. constituency most is the changes to housing benefit. I have spoken a lot from an historical perspective, but Capping local housing allowance rates and setting them I want to bring my remarks up to date with a personal at the 30th percentile of local rents rather than the story that I heard from one of my closest friends just median from April will create affordability problems. after Christmas. He had run a motor salvage firm, Many people will see a shortfall between their benefit which, through a bit of bad luck and for other reasons, and their rent. Plans to introduce regulations to uprate had gone downhill and eventually folded. People said to LHA rates based on the consumer prices index will make him, “How about claiming? You’ve contributed enough the problem worse. The DWP’s own impact assessment in your life,” but he said, “No. I’ve worked for myself states that CPI is expected to rise by 2% each year, but and that’s what I’m going to do.” He set up a new rental costs will rise by 4%. This will break the link business—a cleaning business. He has worked hard, but between housing benefits and actual rent costs, and whenever he tries to employ staff—this frequently comes means that many families will struggle. up—people approach him and say, “I’m happy to work The change will push many LHA claimants in London for you if you give me a bit of cash on the side.” What further out to areas like my constituency, Erith and they are saying is that work does not pay in those Thamesmead, which has some of the cheapest housing circumstances. in Greater London. This will place a great strain on our I am glad, and absolutely proud, to be part of the already overstretched housing and local services. The Government who are introducing the Bill. To make a other possibility is that people will simply be unable to non-partisan point, this has been a long time coming. It find any affordable accommodation, and will be at risk should have been done, not just in the past 13 years, but of debt and homelessness. Everyone should be entitled very many years ago. I shall sum up briefly by paraphrasing to a secure home. I urge the Secretary of State to think a saying that was used by my hon. Friend the Member again. for North West Leicestershire (Andrew Bridgen): there is never a wrong time to do the right thing. As the Another of my concerns about is the proposal in Chinese always say, the first step of any journey is a clause 111 to apply a £50 civil penalty for claimant long journey, and the most difficult step. I am happy to error. The proposal will affect the most vulnerable put my shoulder to the wheel and support the Bill, and claimants—those who have difficulty filling out forms, push it through its very important journey. those whose first language is not English and whose literacy skills are poor—and people who inadvertently miss out information. More importantly, it appears to 3.39 pm link error with fraud, something that Ministers have Teresa Pearce (Erith and Thamesmead) (Lab): All done far too often recently and this afternoon, the most Members agree that the welfare system needs reform, obvious case being the Chancellor’s announcement in and I welcome attempts to simplify the benefits system the comprehensive spending review statement that over and make work pay. We need a welfare system that £5 billion was lost to benefit fraud. As we heard today helps those who can work to do so, by supporting from the hon. Member for Kingswood (Chris Skidmore), people into good, well-paid, meaningful work, and the figure is £1.5 billion. The DWP’s latest central properly supports those who cannot work. However, I estimates of total fraud and error across the Department have serious doubts about the Bill’s effectiveness, and I shows that roughly the same amount of money was lost am worried about the impact that some of its provisions in claimant error as through official error by the will have on vulnerable people in my constituency. Department, but we do not talk about departmental I shall first raise some concerns that I have about how fraud. I urge the Secretary of State to reconsider the the Bill has been drafted and presented. Almost all the proposal to introduce a £50 civil penalty for claimant charities and organisations that I have been in touch error, as well as the heavy sanctions in other clauses. with have raised legitimate concerns about the speed of I was pleased that the Secretary of State decided not the legislation and particularly the lack of detail. There to proceed with plans to impose a 10% housing benefit is a heavy reliance on regulations and secondary legislation cut on anyone who had been out of work for a year. that makes it difficult for Members and others to scrutinise That sanction did not make sense, and similar provisions how the welfare reform agenda will work in practice. in the Bill need to be reconsidered. A sanction-led Clause 11 on housing costs, for example, is only 30 lines approach does not make sense when we are facing huge long. There is little detail or analysis of how child care public sector redundancies, a knock-on effect in the costs, free school meals and council tax benefit will be private sector and a weak growth rate which means that covered under universal credit. jobs simply are not available. There are 2.5 million One of the most concerning aspects of the Bill is that people unemployed and fewer than 500,000 vacancies some of its provisions are still under consultation. For in the economy. I am already receiving a significant example, clauses 69 to 72 propose the abolition of the number of letters from constituents, many of whom social fund, yet the Department for Work and Pensions were recently made redundant late in their careers, who consultation on its proposed replacement is still open are desperate to work but cannot find employment. 969 Welfare Reform Bill9 MARCH 2011 Welfare Reform Bill 970

I have visited local colleges, where highly motivated living allowance, a 60-page form. Is it any wonder that young people are gaining qualifications in the hope of people become confused and fill in the forms incorrectly getting an apprenticeship or a job, but they are fearful and make mistakes? The system is extraordinarily expensive because they know that the ratio of claimants as opposed to administer. The DWP spent £2 billion last year to Jobcentre Plus vacancies is 12 claimants to every administering working-age benefits, and local authorities three vacancies. People need help overcoming barriers a further £l billion administering housing benefit and to work. They need personalised support, and a council tax benefit. Even the tiny citizens advice bureau Government with a growth strategy to create jobs. A in Bishop’s Waltham, a town of 5,000 people in a rural sanction-based approach will only cause severe hardship and relatively affluent part of Hampshire, processed for the people who need the most support and further 2,176 queries about benefits in 2009-10, advising people stigmatise people on benefits, setting neighbour against how to claim them. neighbour. I also fear that it will mean a significant As we have heard from my hon. Friend the Member increase in child poverty rates in this country. for Kingswood (Chris Skidmore), overpayments are Finally, I dispute the assertion by the Secretary of rife, and I do not intend to rehearse the clear disincentives State that the welfare state is only for the most vulnerable. to finding work imposed by the benefits system, as that It is not: it is for each and every one of us. It is in effect a has been covered in some detail by the Secretary of national insurance system into which people pay when State and my hon. Friend the Member for Bexleyheath they do not need it so that it is there when they do. It is a and Crayford (Mr Evennett). There is absolutely no system in which contributions have just gone up by doubt that with some work having a marginal rate of 1% for everyone in employment, but all they can expect tax of 95%, there are powerful disincentives that prevent is a cut in pensions and benefits. Overall, I support the people from going out to work. The taper in the universal principle of universal credit, and I am in favour of credit of 65% at least allows some certainty, so that simplifying the benefits system and creating work incentives, every time someone goes out to work they can be sure but in the context of £18 billion of welfare cuts— that they will earn a reasonable amount and get a reasonable amount in their pocket. Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. The right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne) discussed the difficulties for self-employed 3.45 pm people in the new system. Only yesterday, I asked my right hon. Friend the Minister of State how that would George Hollingbery (Meon Valley) (Con): I pay tribute be administered outside the PAYE system. He had a to my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton clear answer, and said that there would be mechanisms South West (Paul Uppal), who made a compelling in place. If we examine the present situation, my constituent speech. My contribution is likely to be more technocratic, Zehra Peermohamed wrote: but I pay tribute to his eloquence. “For every £50 extra per week my new business may generate”— I pay tribute, too, to the Opposition, who have a real passion for this subject and, Government Members will a business that she started up herself— all acknowledge, are more likely to represent constituents “I would only gain an extra £4.81 of it to add to my overall who are subject to the vagaries and whims of the income…It seems that there is little incentive for people in my benefits system. We must encourage them, however, to situation who want to better themselves and not to rely on the accept that our ministerial team cares equally deeply benefit system.” about this complex, difficult and challenging issue. It Whatever objections the shadow Secretary of State has introduced a broad skeleton of proposals on which might have now, the existing situation is certainly no to hang the detail. In conversations that I have had with better. Ministers, it is quite clear that they know that that detail Gemma Sword, a single mother with a child who has is missing at this stage. Indeed, the Secretary of State turned seven, says: has made it plain that there is more work to be done on particular areas, but change is certainly required. “In March…I started working part time 4 hours weekly over 3 days earning £96 monthly of which I was allowed to retain £80.” There are more than 30 different benefits out there that can be claimed. There are 14 manuals in the From 15 November, she earned up to £150. Ms Sword Department for Work and Pensions, with 8,690 pages of continues: instructions for officials. There is a separate set of four “I was then transferred to Job Seekers allowance as my son volumes for local government, with 1,200 pages covering turned 7 and was told that I can now only keep £20 of my housing and council tax benefits alone. That is an monthly earnings”, astonishingly byzantine system. One of my constituents, which did not even make it worth travelling to work. Nigel Oakland, wrote to me: She was then told that she had to look for full-time “Nobody at the Jobcentre Plus can explain if it is beneficial if I employment but, to do so, had to leave her part-time continue to sign on. The last advice I was given is that I should employment. Those rules make no sense to anybody Google the question.” who looks at them carefully, and there is no doubt in my In such a situation, where even the experts at Jobcentre mind that there are powerful disincentives in the system Plus cannot answer the questions that arise, we are to stop people going out and bettering themselves by clearly in difficulty. finding work. It is confusing for clients. There is a 30-page form for I do not want to spend a large amount of time housing and council tax benefit, including three pages examining the issue now, but we need sticks as well as of declarations. Employment and support allowance carrots. There needs to be an understanding in the requires a 52-page form; jobseeker’s allowance, 12 online system that if someone does not perform as the system sections, each of five to 10 pages long; and disability requires them to do in looking for work, they will pay a 971 Welfare Reform Bill9 MARCH 2011 Welfare Reform Bill 972

[George Hollingbery] soaring, just as happened under the previous Conservative Government, when it topped 3 million on two separate penalty in terms of the benefits to which they are occasions. entitled. Without that part of the mix, the new universal Government Members tell us that the welfare bill is credit will not work. expensive, but so is mass unemployment. I believe I would love to examine in more detail the Work enormously in the power of work. Employment brings programme and its localisation, because the Communities dignity, respect and decency to life, and getting more and Local Government Committee has heard evidence people into work should always be one of the prime that localisation will be peripheral. I would like to hear objectives of the Government. In my constituency there about the migration from disability living allowance to are 16 people chasing every advertised job, and, with the personal independence payment, and in particular some of our major employers, such as the council and about the mobility component. I have talked to the the police force, axing hundreds of jobs, that will only Under-Secretary about that at some length and received become worse. Residents are concerned about their considerable reassurances, for which I thank her. I jobs, and with youth unemployment at record levels they would like more on the work capability assessment, the are worried that there will be no work for their children. Harrington review of it and the ongoing review continually The Labour Government took deliberate and positive to refine that system and make it fairer and more steps to reduce youth unemployment by introducing equitable; and I also want to hear a little more at some measures such as the future jobs fund. By September, stage and, particularly, in Committee about the appeals almost 700 young people in my borough had completed process and the proposed changes to it. placements funded by the scheme. The scheme was an On the whole, however, this is a thorny, knotty problem, opportunity for participants to learn new skills, to which the Government are grasping with some alacrity, develop confidence, and to learn about the things that and I for one will certainly vote for the Bill’s Second might be holding them back in the jobs market. Many Reading. of the people who completed it went on to further education or training. Where was the sense in axing such a scheme, which was already proving successful in 3.51 pm stemming the increase in youth unemployment? Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op): It seems to me that schemes such as the future jobs These debates about our welfare system or, as I should fund were cancelled not for economic reasons but for say, heeding the comments of my right hon. Friend the political ones. The Government appear intent on spinning Member for Croydon North (Malcolm Wicks), our the myth— social security system—whether in the House, the media or the pubs and living rooms of our constituencies—often Stephen Lloyd: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? become a magnet for two opposing arguments. The first is that everyone on welfare is somehow undeserving and Jonathan Reynolds: I will, because I believe that I all the money is spent incorrectly; the second is that could not give way to the hon. Gentleman on Second every penny spent is 100% effective and should be Reading of the Health and Social Care Bill, and I do beyond question. We have heard those views today, but not want to be discourteous a second time. both are extreme and neither is true. Stephen Lloyd: I thank the hon. Gentleman. On the I will always support our welfare state, and I want to future jobs fund, does he agree that the percentage of live in a country where we accept collective responsibility people who went into paid work afterwards was incredibly for the people who are most in need. We would all be low? One of the reasons why the Government have much poorer if we did not enable the most vulnerable decided to focus more on apprenticeships, where they members of our society to live with dignity, and it would have invested much more money, is that with apprenticeships be a far more daunting society without the support that the jobs that people get tend to stick. we currently offer to people who are searching for work. I admit, however, that our system is not without its Jonathan Reynolds: When I looked into this, anticipating shortcomings, and it could benefit from some reforms. such an intervention, I found that it is difficult to get Unfortunately, those are not the reforms suggested in precise figures on a constituency basis, but the information this Bill. that my local authority could give me shows that two Our welfare system can be daunting and is too complex, thirds of the people who were employed through the and universal credit could be a positive step forward if future jobs fund in my borough went on to paid it simplifies the system, but simplicity and transparency, employment or training. I appreciate that that is not welcome objectives that they are, are not enough on quite the answer to the hon. Gentleman’s question, but their own; the welfare system must also be fair and it is the best one I can give him. effective and, above all, enable the transition from welfare The Government seem to want to create a year zero to work. The proposals in the Bill fall short of those and pretend that no reform went on over the past measures, and as a result, despite being a supporter in 13 years, in order to create a benchmark by which they principle of welfare reform, I cannot support them today. can measure their own progress. However, it is a false The Government need to realise that we can support benchmark because it fails to recognise the progress the welfare system and make it stronger only if we are that was made. Returning people to employment was an also willing to support the labour market. Helping the integral part of the last Labour Government’s policy, transition from welfare to work will be successful only if and many advances were made. The Benefits Agency- there is work to take up, yet the scale and pace of the Jobcentre Plus merger, which is always identified as best cuts that we currently see threaten to send unemployment practice, allowed people to look for work at the same 973 Welfare Reform Bill9 MARCH 2011 Welfare Reform Bill 974 time as claiming as benefits. We launched the new deal, do, unless the Government continue to provide support under which, for the first time, people were told that for childcare, we will not make anything like the progress they could not refuse help to find work, and it was the that could be made. Labour Government who toughened sanctions against I believe that the principles behind the Bill are right, those who could work but refused to do so. Some of the but there is too much in the proposals that is ill thought measures now being proposed dilute the sanctions imposed through, and will be detrimental to many vulnerable by the last Labour Government. people. The Bill is not ready in its present form, and the Government should recognise that. Welfare reform has Mel Stride (Central Devon) (Con): Will the hon. a great many supporters in all parts of this House. The Gentleman explain what progress was made under the Government should have built on that consensus in last Government, given that the numbers claiming incapacity creating the Bill, but they did not. That is why I will not benefits increased from 700,000 to over 2.5 million? support the Bill today, but will vote for the reasoned amendment moved by my right hon. Friend the Member Jonathan Reynolds: The benefits changed, so I am for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne). afraid that the hon. Gentleman is not comparing like with like. If he goes to the Library, he will see that the 4pm overwhelming rise in sickness benefits occurred in the 1980s, when take-up doubled. That is because when we Sajid Javid (Bromsgrove) (Con): I welcome the Bill, went through the process of deindustrialisation the and the excellent and thoughtful contributions that we Conservative Government threw people on to the scrapheap, have heard from all parts of the House. This Bill is encouraged them to take that benefit until they retired, important for many reasons, and it goes to the heart of and did not care one bit about them. That is where he the kind of society that we want to be. Do we want to be should look if he is wants to find a reason behind these an opportunity society that rewards people for hard figures. work, believes in equality of opportunity rather than equality of outcome, and believes that we should have a Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): Does the hon. welfare state that stands behind people to cushion them Gentleman acknowledge that in Northern Ireland there if they fall, not one that stands in front of people and is over £700 million in unclaimed benefit that people stops them progressing and reaching their ambitions should be claiming and have not claimed? If that is the and aspirations? That is the essence of the Bill. If one case in Northern Ireland, the same must be true across believes in an opportunity society, one believes in this the rest of the United Kingdom. Bill. Some 1.4 million people have claimed out-of-work Jonathan Reynolds: I thank the hon. Gentleman for benefits for nine of the last 10 years. In that time, his point; I am pleased that he has been able to put it on 600,000 people have gone straight on to the welfare the record. register on leaving school and have never worked since. I am proud of the Labour Government’s record on In short, many people have come to see welfare as a welfare reform, which stands in stark contrast to what career option. I have seen that as an MP when meeting occurred in the 1980s and 1990s, when there was no my constituents. In particular, I met a local farmer such reform at all until the end of the Conservative some months ago who employs 52 people on the national Government. Only now are the Conservatives coming minimum wage for unskilled work. Of those 52 people, back to it, but against the backdrop of public sector 40 are foreign workers from eastern Europe. When I cuts and deficit reduction. The question that people will asked him why that was the case, he said that our young ask is whether the Bill is really aimed at getting people people lacked a work ethic. In many cases, he had back into work or, once again, merely pursues the interviewed people but when they had considered the Government’s ideological goal of reducing the size of job and checked the numbers, they realised that they the state. would be worse off if they took the job as opposed to In principle, I welcome the move towards a single, staying on welfare. simplified universal credit; few would not do so. That Our welfare budgets have rocketed in such a way that has the potential to ensure that people are clear about today, 2 million children are growing up in households the income they will have if their circumstances change, where no one works. Incredibly, the proportion of working- and in principle I wish that we had done it. However, age adults living in poverty is the highest since records only through scrutiny of the detail of the Bill will we began. Worklessness and benefit dependency is costing determine whether the reality of these reforms matches our country a fortune. This entrenched poverty and the promise, or whether they are really a cruel camouflage worklessness throughout Britain is bad for benefit recipients to hide savage cuts targeted at the most needy members and bad for society, and often leads to higher levels of of our communities. The measures in the Bill will debt, family breakdown, and alcohol and drug abuse. penalise savers. Estimates suggest that nearly half a At the heart of the problem is the lack of work million families could lose all eligibility for financial incentives. We have a proliferation of benefits that support. Some reforms, such as the removal of the makes the system so complex that people do not know mobility element of DLA, are simply cruel and unfair. whether they would be better off in work than out of The Bill leaves many questions unanswered, such as work. I went to my local jobcentre a few months ago how some benefits—crisis loans and council tax benefit, and asked the staff how long it would take them to tell for example—will maintain any consistency if eligibility somebody if they would be better off in work if they is decided locally. came in and said that they could get a part-time job Furthermore, we still know far too little about the tomorrow for 10 hours a week on the minimum wage. Government’s plans for the most important area of The answer was that it would take 90 minutes on all—child care. For all the good that any reform might average. They added that even when they give an answer 975 Welfare Reform Bill9 MARCH 2011 Welfare Reform Bill 976

[Sajid Javid] personal independence payment and by the changes to employment and support allowance, and will get less and it happens to be yes—in many cases it is no—because help from the universal credit, particularly during the it takes so long, many people have so little faith in the first six months of their illness or disability. answer that they decide not to work in any case. That People in that situation are coping with significant has to change. stress and coming to terms with a fundamental change We cannot address only the symptoms of poverty in circumstances, as well as a sudden and dramatic drop and worklessness; we have to address the causes, such as in income. I had worked out some examples, but I shall welfare dependency, educational failure, addiction, debt not have time to give them. Suffice it to say that in and family breakdown. months three to six, a single person who has worked all I will highlight three areas of the Bill that I believe their life but has had a stroke and can no longer work is represent the right way forward. The universal credit is likely to be more than £130 a week worse off unless the the most important part of the Bill, because it will qualifying period for the personal independence payment ensure that everyone is better off in work than out of is brought forward to three months. work. The taper relief, at 65%, strikes a good balance The importance of the severe disability premium between budgetary pressures and giving the right incentive cannot be overstated. It is a source of extra help for to work. However, I hope that in the longer term, people who do not have a carer and have higher costs Ministers will look again at that rate with a view to because of that. If it is not included in the Bill, the drop reducing it. I caution that in implementing the universal in income for hard-working people who suffer a life- credit, Ministers should look carefully at the IT systems, changing illness or disability will be catastrophic. If because they will have to work with other agencies, they have a mortgage, the position will be even worse. including Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs. Many Almost 20% of the people who attended an advice desk previous Governments have bungled new IT systems in run by the citizens advice bureau at the county court terms of time or cost. This therefore has to be considered said that an illness was the major factor in their falling carefully. So does the passporting of benefits, to ensure into mortgage arrears, putting them at risk of losing that the nature of the taper relief is maintained and their home. No fewer than three measures in the Bill there are no cliff edges. will substantially reduce the amount of financial support I also wish to highlight the changes to housing benefit, available to people in that situation. which are welcome because for the first time, they will I now turn to families, particularly those paying for ensure that people on housing benefit cannot live in formal child care. If, as has been suggested, only 70% of properties that ordinary working people would have no child care costs are covered, many second earners on a prospect of being able to afford. That was a commitment low income will not have a realistic option of returning in the Labour party’s manifesto, and I hope that all to work until their children are older and need less care. Members wholeheartedly endorse it. In some cases it could cost people money to return to The change to the consumer prices index for the work, which was not the intention behind the Bill at all. uprating of housing benefit is also welcome, partly In fact, somebody’s problems might start not when their because it will save £300 million a year and we have to baby is born, as is usual, but when statutory maternity find savings given the budgetary pressures. Also, as such pay or maternity allowance is paid, because it is unclear a huge proportion of people in social housing receive in the Bill whether that will be treated as “income other housing benefit, it may lead to a change in the rents than earnings” and lost pound for pound. demanded. Finally, I wish to highlight the welfare cap, Clarification is also needed on other issues, such as which will be £500 a week for couples, meaning that no whether benefit will be paid to the household rather family can earn more than £26,000 a year in benefits than to the main carer. That is a big issue for many net, or £35,000 gross, which happens to be equal to the families. national average household wage. Ian Paisley: Does the hon. Lady accept that there is a In summary, the Bill is a huge step forward in creating huge policy contradiction? The Government claim that an opportunity society. It restores the dignity of labour they want to eliminate child poverty, yet at the same and ensures that the Government will be standing behind time they want to cut the social security payments that people in case they fall, to help cushion that fall, but go right to the heart of benefiting children from low-income will not be in front of them to prevent them from households. progressing and meeting their ambitions and aspirations. Yvonne Fovargue: I totally agree with the hon. Gentleman, 4.6 pm and I have evidence that some lone parents will not be able to work their way out of poverty. Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab): Like many other Members, I welcome the concept of simplicity in the To return to the question of to whom benefits are welfare system—of which I have experience, having paid, I have seen mothers whose only source of stable, worked in it. I also welcome the aim of ensuring that reliable income is child benefit, and many more mothers work is a route out of poverty. However, I do not believe who do not know what their partners earn and who are that the Bill demonstrates fully how that will be achieved. given an allowance every week. That problem will be Among two groups in particular, it could actually increase exacerbated if benefit is paid to main wage earner, the number of people falling into poverty and debt. which is usually the man. Like others, I am seriously concerned that people who Finally, if there is a query about one element of a are ill or have an accident, and have to take prolonged claim there is often a delay, particularly when housing time off work, will suddenly be negatively affected by benefit and private landlords are involved. I can only the plans to replace disability living allowance with the hope that the other elements of the universal credit will 977 Welfare Reform Bill9 MARCH 2011 Welfare Reform Bill 978 be paid while such matters are investigated, and that the is suggesting that people with no capacity for work benefit is not so universal as to be “all or nothing” in should get out and work. We should have a generous such cases. safety net, as we do for people in those situations. On sanctions, it is quite right that people refusing However, the system as currently constructed has reasonable work should be penalised, as indeed they are many barriers that send the message that taking on under the current system. However, I urge the Government full-time work is not worth while. With single parents to ensure that great care is taken when sanctioning facing a withdrawal rate of 96%, what kind of message vulnerable claimants. For example, I dealt with a client does that send to people about the sense in going to who was sanctioned for not turning up for an interview work? We have all met people who work 16 hours a to discuss his claim. Hon. Members might think that week. As we know, the way that working tax credits that is perfectly reasonable, but that client was in a secure work gives people an incentive to find a job working institution—a secure mental health unit—and the letter 16 hours a week. At the moment, those working 15 or requiring him to turn up for interview was sent there. 17 hours a week find themselves financially worse off. The £50 civil penalty for claimant error should be That is why it is so important that the Bill tackles those withdrawn. I am sure that, like me, many hon. Members cliff edges, ensuring a much smoother process and a deal almost daily with constituents who have been the linear relationship between the time that people work victims of official error. The focus on claimant error is and the amount that they take home. At the end of the out of proportion. People who claim those benefits day, we all respond to the financial incentives that are include the most vulnerable people in our society. They inherent in the system. are the most likely to make errors, particularly with As we heard earlier, the current benefits system also official forms, and the least likely to be able to afford the pays couples more to live apart than to stay together. I penalties. We should not simplify the benefit alone; the believe that I am right in saying that 2 million people in claiming process should also be simplified. this country would identify themselves as being in a I hope that the amendment will be supported, because relationship but living apart. No one can deny that, in the Bill lacks clarity and detail. In fact, it will have the large part, that is down to the messages and the financial opposite effect of what is intended in terms of the incentives sent through the welfare system, which will Government’s stated broader goals and obligations, be reformed by this Bill. such as making work pay, reducing child poverty and I am sure that Opposition Members will welcome the protecting vulnerable groups. fact that the distributional analysis of the universal credit shows that the vast proportion of additional money in the system will go to those in the lowest income deciles, 4.12 pm with 85% going to those in the four lowest-paid deciles. Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): This is I should point out, however, to the Secretary of State a profoundly important Bill. It is born out of the that it was still a shock to realise that even under the Secretary of State’s deep passion for helping people to changes that we are discussing today, the benefit withdrawal get out of poverty—he has spent the last decade looking rates for those going into work will still be 65p in the at that. There are few ways in which people who are pound. That is still a shockingly high marginal deduction born and grow up in poverty can find a way out. I can rate, when our higher-rate taxpayers are on 51% or think of some, but winning the lottery does not happen 52%. The Child Poverty Action Group, the Centre for very often and it is unlikely that someone will get a Social Justice and Family Action have all argued for a surprise inheritance from a relative whom they did not withdrawal rate of 55%, with Save the Children arguing know existed. Marrying a top footballer is rare, and it for a 50% withdrawal rate. I hope that everyone in the would probably be quite hard work. The hon. Member House will welcome the fact that the Bill gives the for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) spoke of work as Chancellor in future the ability to stand at the Dispatch “a” route out of poverty, but it is “the” route out. If Box and say that he is making a change in the marginal Opposition Members have alternatives to work as a route withdrawal rate, because we would all like it to be out of poverty, I would be interested to hear of them. reduced over time. The Bill removes the barriers that the welfare system puts in the way of people working their way out of Naomi Long: I acknowledge what the hon. Lady says poverty, which is important. We must recognise—this is about the Bill giving the Chancellor the freedom to do why I am so disappointed that Opposition Members that, but it does not require him to do it. Would it not will not support Second Reading—that there are many provide people with more certainty if the Government barriers in the system’s construction that prevent people indicated that that were the intention? from getting the important message that they need to go out to find a job and to work, and that that is how they Harriett Baldwin: I think that we have heard the will improve their economic circumstances. Secretary of State put that on the record on a number of occasions. Ian Paisley: I appreciate what the hon. Lady says There are a few debating points that have arisen in about people who are able-bodied and who can work this debate, particularly from the Opposition, that I working their way out of poverty, but how do people would like to address in my few remaining minutes. On find their way out of poverty if their impoverishment is savers, we can have a debate about whether someone with a result of disability? £16,000 in savings ought to be in the benefits system, but we should all recognise that the welfare system Harriett Baldwin: As the hon. Gentleman knows, should focus on those on the lowest incomes and with there are many provisions in our welfare system for the lowest savings. That is one of the difficult decisions exactly that sort of situation. I do not think that anyone that it is worth tackling, and the Bill does that. 979 Welfare Reform Bill9 MARCH 2011 Welfare Reform Bill 980

Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): That feature of seen a Bill in which so much depends on regulations the proposals will mean that, as a fine simply for having that “may” happen—[Interruption.] I do not know £16,000 in the bank, people will lose all their tax credits, which hon. Gentleman is chuntering over there, but I which could amount to £5,000 a year. Surely that is can give the House an example from clause 4 on entitlement. not right. Subsection (2) contains the words “Regulations may provide”, and subsection (3) states that “regulations Harriett Baldwin: The right hon. Gentleman probably may specify”. Subsection (7) states that “regulations also supports the proposition that I should continue to may specify circumstances”. And so it goes on. receive child benefit. We need to make these decisions, We are not being asked to deal with a major piece of and they need to focus on certain levels of savings. welfare reform here; we are being asked to buy a pig in a Passported benefits, on the other hand, are something poke. We do not know the details. The Secretary of that we will need to discuss in great detail. I hope that State made great play of the fact that this will form a the Committee will do that, because things such as free contract. Well, in all contracts, the devil is in the detail. I school meals, which at the moment are passported in welcome the comment of my right hon. Friend the with other benefits, are also a trigger for early-years Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne) today payments for schools and the pupil premium. It will that he is not prepared to sign up to the Second Reading therefore be particularly important to have clarity about of the Bill until we have seen the details. We have so how free school meals are going to work in the future. many unanswered questions. What will happen when Personally, I would favour putting that in with the council tax benefit is abolished? Is it going to be replaced universal credit, where it would be affected by the same by a grant? How will that be assessed? How is it going to withdrawal rates. be managed? Another good point that has been raised in the debate I must point out to Conservative Members that it is was about entrepreneurs. We must ensure that people not only in Labour constituencies that the Bill will have do not hear from the benefits system a message against an impact. It will do so in the constituencies of Members entrepreneurial behaviour. The Committee needs to across the Floor of the House, and individuals in those look closely at how the imputed income of new business constituencies are now worrying about whether they start-ups will be treated for benefit purposes. will be able to maintain themselves in their own homes. We have heard allegations that the Bill has been What will happen to those who fall off the edge when rushed. I disagree. We are talking today about changes that their employment and support allowance runs out? will not even come into effect until 2013. However, I Surely it is the right of any disabled individual in a agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton civilised society to be supported if they are unable to South West (Paul Uppal) that they cannot come soon work. Frankly, the Secretary of State’s comment about enough, although I know that a major computer system reviewing people whose impairment will not change needs to be changed. I welcome the measures in the Bill throughout their lifetime was absolutely astonishing, and I look forward to supporting its Second Reading. and I think it did him no great credit. I would not like to explain to the parent of a deaf-blind child that they needed to bring their child for a review every so often—just 4.21 pm to make sure that the child was still deaf and still blind. Mrs Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab): I am delighted to follow the hon. Member for West Worcestershire (Harriett Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ Baldwin). In June last year, I made a contribution to a Co-op): Like my right hon. Friend, I have received debate in the House on welfare reform, in which I representations from many constituents who have a congratulated the Secretary of State, then new to his similar concern. Does she agree that, regrettably, those post, on the sentiments that he had expressed on reforming parents who have heard the Secretary of State today are the welfare system in this country. At that time, I said likely to be even more worried than they were at the that he had used a broad brush, and that we had not yet start of the debate by his very refusal to rule out the seen any details. Frankly, we still find ourselves in that type of continued reassessment about which we are so situation today. concerned? Like other Labour Members, I welcome some aspects of the Bill. The introduction of the universal credit and Mrs McGuire: I agree wholeheartedly with my hon. the moves towards simplification are certainly proposals Friend. I believe that this is one of the issues causing the that we can endorse. Most of us, and most of the greatest concern among individuals and families. organisations that we communicate with, welcome those developments, but there is still serious concern about The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work significant aspects of the Bill. In the time available to and Pensions (Maria Miller) rose— me, I want to concentrate on just a couple of those aspects. Mrs McGuire: If the Minister is going to clarify what First, the Bill is skeletal in the extreme. The clauses the Secretary of State said earlier, I would be delighted have definitely been drafted with a broad brush, declaring to give way to her. an intent rather than giving details of what will happen. For example, what exactly does “benefit rates for people not in work will generally be the same as Maria Miller: I just wanted to clarify that these under the current system” measures do not affect children. mean? How will “generally” impact on the specific? How will individuals know, when deciding whether to Mrs McGuire: In that case, we can take the age support the Bill, what is actually going to happen if forward and talk about a deaf-blind adult. Our case work is not a realistic option for them? I have rarely about people whose impairments or disabilities will not 981 Welfare Reform Bill9 MARCH 2011 Welfare Reform Bill 982 change and who can be assessed as such is not at all single parents—described by one former Labour Member diminished, as they will still have to go through this of Parliament for Halifax as “punitive and cruel”—was review. vindictive and unfair. The type of review is also an important issue. For a If the coalition Government are to be able to make long time, disabled people in this country have fought that claim of fairness, we must ensure that we protect hard to be recognised as part of a social model of the most vulnerable. We have made a good start by disability. What we are seeing now is the introduction of restoring the link between pensions and earnings with an assessment by a medical professional. Is it any the triple lock and committing ourselves to raising the wonder that disabled people out there are beginning to personal allowance to take hundreds of thousands of think that all those things for which they fought so long the most poorly paid out of tax altogether. However, and so hard—the achievements they have made over the changes in the benefits system present a real challenge. last 15 years, with cross-party support—are going to be If the Bill is not amended during its passage, it will thrown on the scrapheap? That, I think, is the danger certainly not receive my support. posed by this Bill, and I have highlighted the questions I want to concentrate on housing benefit and possible that disabled people are asking. changes in disability living allowance. Let me begin with The Minister might well be thinking that all this is a the positives. Ministers in the Department for Work matter of hyperbole. I do not think it is, and I know that and Pensions have certainly been listening. I have had many of my hon. Friends would agree, because we are the opportunity to meet all of them to discuss the hearing daily quite tragic stories about people who are proposed changes and am pleased that the plans to terrified about what is going to happen. They are worried restrict housing benefit to 90% of the full award after not necessarily because the Government have bad intent, 12 months for claimants on jobseeker’s allowance have but because the Government are not explaining exactly been abandoned. That terrible idea would have resulted what is in the Bill. I do not think that the Minister has in numerous people who were actively seeking work bad intent and I certainly do not think that the Secretary being worse off through no fault of their own. Many of State has, but given that they are embarking on people and organisations inside and outside the House something that will radically affect individual people have worked hard to ensure that that does not happen, and families, we must have a better Bill than the one and I am glad that Ministers have recognised that it before us. would have caused real hardship for many vulnerable The Secretary of State is often cited as saying that people. this Bill amounts to the greatest change in the welfare A great deal of attention has been paid to the proposal system since Beveridge. The reason why Beveridge worked to remove the mobility component of disability living and was sustained for so long was that it was about allowance from people in residential care. Last month, engagement with the whole of society. It was about a in an interview in The Guardian, the Minister sought to contract that people recognised, knowing that if they reassure disabled people in care homes and their families put something into society, they could occasionally get that the Government would not remove their ability to something back—not just a cushion, but something get out and about. I have no doubt that that is the that gave them a participatory role in that social contract. Government’s intention and welcome their commitment What we have now is a deconstruction of those Beveridge to reconsider the proposal. Unfortunately, I do not proposals. What we have is a system that effectively tells share the Minister’s optimism that the mobility needs of people that they cannot have welfare unless they meet those in care homes will be met if disability living all the criteria, which are not even known, in a Bill that allowance or its replacement is taken away, and I urge is far more skeletal than many of—indeed, any of—the her to abandon any such plans. welfare Bills brought before this House. The proposal has caused concern to organisations We should not give the Bill its Second Reading today. such as the Muscular Dystrophy Campaign, whose If the Minister can tell us in her summing up that all petition I submitted to Parliament only last night. The those issues will be dealt with in Committee, we might petition stated that the mobility component be able to give the Government the benefit of the “helps to meet the higher costs of accessible public transport”. doubt later in the process. I welcome, however, the view of my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, It also stated that Hodge Hill, the shadow Secretary of State, that if the “without DLA mobility component, thousands of adults of all Bill is not radically changed and if its contents are not ages with severe disabilities who are supported by the state to live confirmed, we should not support it even on Third Reading. in residential care will be unable to retain voluntary employment or simply to visit family and friends”. I urge the Minister to ensure that that does not happen. 4.29 pm Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD): I am Ian Paisley: I agree with much of what the hon. delighted to have the opportunity to contribute to this Gentleman has said. Does he believe that linking benefits important debate on the future of the benefits system. to the lower consumer prices index rather than the retail prices index is “punitive” and “unfair” to those who I think that the whole House would agree that the have to claim benefit? way in which a Government treat the most vulnerable will always be a good measure of whether they can claim to have been fair. When the last Labour Government Mr Leech: I was just coming to that. Yes, I do think it failed to restore the link between pensions and earnings is unfair. during their 13 years in power and introduced the The Bill proposes that from April 2013 the local infamously derisory 75p pension increase, people rightly housing allowance should be uprated in line with the saw that as unfair. Similarly, their cut in benefits for consumer prices index rather than real rent increases. 983 Welfare Reform Bill9 MARCH 2011 Welfare Reform Bill 984

[Mr Leech] excluding housing benefit to ensure that families in receipt of benefit have enough to live on, regardless of I shall avoid the temptation to reopen the debate about the cost of housing locally. That is the only way to whether RPI or CPI is a better measure to use. I merely guarantee that they will have enough to live on. point out that the Government do themselves no favours Finally, although this point is not directly related to by picking and choosing which measure to use. If CPI is the Bill’s contents, I suggest to Ministers that the best a better measure of inflation, we should not allow train way to tackle escalating housing benefit would be to operating companies to increase train fares in line with invest properly in affordable social housing and bring RPI, but that is a debate for another time. I recognise more empty homes back into use. That would not only that the current arrangements do little to keep rents low, massively boost the construction industry but help reduce but there is a real danger that rents will increase at a rents in the private sector, which is holding tenants to much faster rate than CPI. The Government must be ransom. There would be a short-term cost, but it would prepared to keep a watching brief on increases in rent give a major boost to the economy and there would be a and to take further action if the changes fail to keep long-term reduction in housing benefit costs. housing benefit in line with rent increases. I do not think that any Member has raised the issue 4.38 pm of under-occupation so far. The decision to restrict housing benefit in social rented homes when tenants are Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): This is under-occupying properties is ill thought out, and will a mean-minded, ill-thought-out Bill that is not designed cause significant hardship to many families who are to promote fairness or help people into work. Rather, existing tenants. I recognise that this is designed to its purpose is to punish the poor, the disabled, those bring housing benefit for social-rented property into with children, those trying to save and those starting a line with the private-rented sector, but it does not take small business for the cost of the greed and recklessness into consideration local circumstances. In Manchester, of City bankers, who created our deficit. That is laid at for example, under existing rules a family with one child the door of the poor, while those responsible indulge in is entitled to queue for a two or three-bedroom property. sharing £8 billion of banker bonuses under a system That is intended to allow for the possible growth of propped up by the taxpayer, whereby if risks go wrong young families and reduce the need for future moves the public pay and if they go right the bankers profit. caused by overcrowding. Similarly, in low or no-demand areas where there are a lot of two-bedroom flats, property Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): I share the hon. has been provided to single people or childless couples Gentleman’s sense that the banking system is responsible either to allow children who live elsewhere to visit, or for the greatest injustices in our society, which I fight simply to fill the vacancies on hard-to-let properties. As often, but, as has been pointed out, these reforms long a result, a significant number of families on housing predate the banking crisis. benefit could face a reduction in benefit through no fault of their own. We need to look at this again and Geraint Davies: I shall come on to the reforms. recognise that a one-size-fits-all approach will not work. I suggest at the very least applying a gross under-occupation The deficit was the price paid to avoid a depression, test whereby restrictions to housing benefit could be and the Government had a clear choice: they could applied if more than two rooms were unoccupied. halve the deficit in four years by focusing on economic growth and making the bankers pay their fair share while also making savings over time that are fair and do Mark Lazarowicz: Another possible circumstance could not harm economic growth. The alternative, which the arise where people who have been in work all their lives Government have chosen, was to cut the deficit at twice and have never had to claim any benefit suddenly find that pace, clearing it in half the time—in four years. that after 20 or 30 years they have to apply for housing That is a “formidable”challenge, according to the Institute benefit and face the prospect of having to leave the for Fiscal Studies, which says that the Government need house that they have lived in for decades. Would that a plan B. not be extremely inhumane as well? There is an over-reliance on savage cuts, particularly to public sector jobs and the welfare benefits we are Mr Leech: Yes, that is true, and it might lead to considering today. That will throw whole communities people being forced to go into private rented into poverty, with a third of a million public sector accommodation and not having a protected tenancy. redundancies triggering a further 1 million private sector I want to comment on the proposals to cap benefit at job losses, which will cost an extra £7 billion a year in £500 a week for families and £350 for a single person benefit costs and lost tax. The benefits of those thrown with no children. I recognise that a cap on benefit is on to the dole will be cut, forcing them, in the worst justifiable to make work pay, but the cap should exclude instances, into community projects like criminals when housing benefit costs, which can vary dramatically in they cannot find work. Why is this happening? It is different parts of the country. Given that the cap on happening because the Government have thrown a bucket housing benefit for four-bedroom houses will be £400 a of water over the embers of economic growth that week, large families might be expected to survive on as Labour had kindled. little as £100 per week if total benefit is capped at £500 a week. Under other proposed changes, homeless families Mr Heald: That is a nice soundbite, but the policy will receive only one reasonable offer, which might be of will cost the taxpayer money. The hon. Gentleman a private rented property that could swallow up the vast seems to think that it is not giving money to people at majority of their total benefit entitlement. The answer the bottom of the pile, but we are talking about £2.6 billion to this problem is to calculate a maximum benefit to help poor people into work. 985 Welfare Reform Bill9 MARCH 2011 Welfare Reform Bill 986

Geraint Davies: The Bill will cost around £4 billion to country, such is the importance of this matter. People implement, and save some £18 billion by taking from rightly care passionately about Britain’s welfare system, the poorest families. The Government’s plans are as has been evident from hon. Members’ contributions, incompetent, unfair and counter-productive. The fact is but I cannot quite agree with the most recent comments that the cuts are choking growth and VAT is stoking made by the hon. Member for Swansea West (Geraint inflation, and both are pushing the deficit up, not down. Davies). In Germany the focus is on growth, not cuts, and growth A society’s willingness and ability to help its most continues apace. In Britain, of course, growth is negative— vulnerable individuals is a measure of its compassion and it is not just the snow. Alongside the £4 billion cost and its economic and social well-being. Ensuring that of the Bill is the £4 billion cost of dismantling the health Britain has an efficient, fair and caring welfare system is service and the £7 billion lost through the unemployment key. We do not necessarily have that at the moment, created by the job cuts, and so it goes on. which is why radical and bold change is badly required. What is the impact on people in Swansea? Some I am delighted to support the Bill, as it is radical and 40% of its workers are employed in the public sector. bold. We face the second highest level of job cuts and very large benefit cuts. Some 65% of people employed in the To accept the need for such reform, we must wake up public sector are women, and the combination of cuts to the facts. Over the past 10 years the welfare budget in jobs and welfare payments will impact on families in has grown disproportionately, by more than £56 billion. particular as they pay their share of the £18 billion in Despite that huge increase, almost 1.5 million people savings that will be made. have been on out-of-work benefit for nine of those 10 years. Despite years of economic growth, job creation The Bill will hurt children, the disabled and enterprise. and increases in the welfare budget, a whole group of Let us consider a Swansea woman with children who people have never worked at all. It is therefore time to works for the council and is made redundant. She has review this broken system. After all, the simple truth is savings of £18,000 and, being an enterprising person, that Britain’s welfare arteries are clogged up. Too little wants to start her own business. She will get no benefits, support is reaching those truly in need and too much is of course, because she has saved more than £16,000 in being lost in bureaucratic incompetence—even more good faith. She will have no wage, but she will be worryingly, it is being lost on people who should not be assumed to be getting the minimum wage as she is in receipt of such support at all. starting a business. Her business will face various start-up costs, such as a computer, setting up a website and In essence, the whole culture of our welfare system is promotional literature. She will be penalised for being a wrong; the cost of maintaining it is out of control and worker, penalised for being a saver and penalised for the decision-making processes within it are woefully being an entrepreneur. inefficient. The Bill is therefore right to focus on incentivising pathways back to work by ensuring that employment Let us assume for a moment that the woman is always pays more than benefits. That is fundamental to successful, despite those barriers. She will be threatened the Bill and, as a simple Yorkshire man, I feel that it is with the loss of her council house if she earns too basic common sense. much—hardly an incentive for people on council estates to start their own businesses. Let us say that she is in her second marriage and she and her husband have five Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab): Would the children. Her husband was also employed by the council— hon. Gentleman care to comment on the fact that his they met working there—and both were made redundant. Government are cutting 1 million jobs in our economy— They have five children, so they have nearly £500 of 500,000 in the public sector, with a further 500,000 to personal benefits in addition to £200 in housing benefit, go in the private sector as a consequence? If he genuinely which means they get £700 in total. The £500 cap is believes that work is a pathway out of poverty, why does imposed on them, so they are forced to split up. They he support measures that will cause greater unemployment now live in separate council houses, each drawing £200 in rather than enable people to get back into work? He has housing benefit, with one parent looking after three expressed concern about people who have been out of children and the other looking after the other two. This work for a long time, but they would be more likely to is a recipe not just for destroying jobs and crushing get an opportunity of employment in the public sector if entrepreneurial activity, but for splitting up homes and his Government were not forcing through so many cuts. increasing the cost to the Exchequer to £900 when it was £700. Julian Sturdy: I agree that this Bill offers an important The Government’s approach in Swansea and elsewhere pathway back to work. We have to get more jobs in the in Britain will make people jobless, make them poorer, private sector and restore the balance between public break up families, crush enterprise, punish saving and and private sector jobs, which was skewed by the previous harm children and the disabled. This is a Bill born not Government—certainly in my region and in the north out of fair-mindedness and enlightenment, but an especially. The measures that this Government are unnecessary and unwise economic strategy of cutting introducing—I hope we will see more of them in the too far too fast and punishing the poor for the reckless Budget—will incentivise private sector growth and job greed of the bankers. It should be opposed so that we creation which, alongside the Bill, will get more people can go back to the drawing board and think again. back into work. It is a sad but well-known fact that the current system 4.44 pm discourages those in low-paid jobs from increasing their Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con): It is a privilege to hours, as rates of tax and benefit reductions often leave speak in this debate, and I strongly suspect that our them worse off. This ridiculous situation helps only to exchanges in the House are being replicated across our dampen aspiration while increasing dependency in the 987 Welfare Reform Bill9 MARCH 2011 Welfare Reform Bill 988

[Julian Sturdy] 4.52 pm John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): I benefits system as a whole. In addition, hard-working, have sat through the debate and listened to the contributions taxpaying families, who are feeling the squeeze in and I will try to address some of the points raised. First, these difficult economic times, should not subsidise let me say that no one in the House doubts the integrity the small but still significant number of people in of the Secretary of State. I commend him for the work our society who see the welfare system as a career he did in opposition in setting up various working choice. That must stop. By annually capping benefits, parties, touring around and meeting various agencies. withdrawing support from those who refuse to work He met a particularly influential person in Scotland, and increasing the financial incentives for those who do Bob Holman—a comrade of ours who knows a lot work, the Bill includes specific measures that will make about poverty and who has expressed his disquiet about work pay. the proposals. Also, a number of us have been campaigners for the citizen’s income, which I think the universal Naomi Long: I agree with the hon. Gentleman on the credit is a step towards, so I do not doubt the Secretary need to change the system to ensure that people do not of State’s good intentions. aspire to live on benefits, but is that not more about However, as we have debated at length over the years, changing people’s aspirations and their pathways to if the universal credit is to work, three conditions need opportunity, rather than simply setting caps and putting to be met. First, it needs to be set at a level that will lift difficulties in the way of those claiming benefit when people out of poverty; otherwise it will inflict universal they are in difficulty? misery. Secondly, there have to be jobs to go into. Thirdly, those jobs must have decent pay. The problem Julian Sturdy: It is about changing aspiration, which with the Bill is that it does not ensure that any of those is what the Bill does. As my hon. Friend the Member for conditions will be met. In that respect, it discredits the Meon Valley (George Hollingbery) said, it is about whole concept of the universal credit, which I find taking a carrot-and-stick approach. It is important to worrying. have certain caps on benefits, but we must also encourage On the first condition, I am worried about the amount aspiration to get people back into work. The current being taken out of the social security system. In the system did not do that. Instead, it dampened aspiration, comprehensive spending review in October, and before which is why it is fundamentally important that we that in the emergency Budget, the Chancellor identified change the system. As many hon. Members have said, it £18 billion that was being taken out of the system. is a case of now or never—we must grasp the nettle. The When the Prime Minister was challenged about that, he DWP estimates that the reforms could reduce the number said: of workless households by as many as 300,000 and that about 700,000 low-earning workers will be better off as “We face a choice—make cuts in welfare or cuts elsewhere”. they keep more of their earnings. I believe that is happening—that we are witnessing cuts in welfare. When the Under-Secretary of State for Work Administrative reform to our welfare system is long and Pensions, the hon. Member for Basingstoke (Maria overdue; it is simply wrong that taxpayers’ money should Miller), was asked specifically about the disability living be squandered recklessly as often happened under the allowance cuts, we were told that the figure of £1 billion previous Government. The creation of the universal of cuts—or savings, depending on how one wants to credit, which will bring together various and often describe them—had been set before any policy description overlapping elements, such as jobseeker’s allowance, had been laid out as to how they would be achieved. I income support and housing benefit, and pay them in a think the Prime Minister and the Government did make single lump sum will cut administrative costs and reduce that choice, because at the same time as the Government the risk of fraud. It is predicted that, as a result of the were taking £18 billion out of welfare they were reducing universal credit, just over 2.5 million households will corporation taxes by £24 billion. Businesses are now receive higher entitlements, with more than 350,000 taxed at the lowest level in 40 years, at the expense of children and 500,000 working-age adults being lifted the poor. out of poverty altogether, as the shadow Secretary of State acknowledged earlier. That was the only thing he The debate then starts to degenerate, as it has in the said that I agreed with, but it is important to mention House today, into attacking unemployed claimants as a that acknowledgement. justification for cuts. I remember the Deputy Prime Minister’s statements about alarm clock Britain, and Lastly, and returning to my initial comments, the today we have heard references to shirkers and so on. I overriding objective of the Bill must be better to protect, have come to the view, and all the Government research equip and support the most vulnerable in our society. under past Governments has demonstrated, that people Too many of this country’s welfare resources have been are desperate to get back to work. Sanctions do exist diluted and too little has been directed at those in most already, and are implemented if people fail to comply. need. To maintain the status quo would be to champion the cycle of dependency and despair that Britain’s welfare Reference was made to fraud. Let us get it on the culture, as constructed by the Labour party, currently record again: £1.5 billion of fraud, £16 billion of benefits promotes. I know that many welfare claimants are unclaimed. Who is ripping off the system? It is not the apprehensive about the Government’s changes, but let poor. As was said earlier, £120 billion of tax has not the message go out loud and clear that those who are been paid as a result of tax evasion and avoidance. truly in need will receive more support, better targeted On the second condition—the existence of jobs to go assistance and higher standards of care. I truly believe that to—with 2.5 million unemployed, including 1 million is the motivation underlying the reforms and I strongly youngsters, even if we filled all the 500,000 vacancies, urge all Members to support this important Bill. there would still be one in four chasing every vacancy; 989 Welfare Reform Bill9 MARCH 2011 Welfare Reform Bill 990 and it is going to be made worse, as was also said earlier. We must all have seen examples of that in our Another 1.2 million will be put on the dole queue as a surgeries—the lone parent who wants to provide for result of the cuts. herself and her family, but finds that the cost of child On decent pay, I have asked others what is happening care and the loss of housing benefit make it more costly in their constituencies, but the jobs offered at the moment to go to work than to stay at home; someone who finds in my constituency are increasingly casual and increasingly a job, then discovers that the rate at which they lose low-paid, and large numbers of my constituents are their housing benefit makes work punitive; someone on now working on zero hours contracts, in which they are incapacity benefit trying to work part time around their simply paid for the hours that they are brought in to do, disability, who finds their benefits withdrawn or clawed on an irregular basis. According to the most recent back, so that they are better off doing nothing; someone survey, published only a month ago and based on who has had a substantial career, finds they are no Government figures, 1.7 million people are now in longer able to do that and wants to retrain, but who has involuntary part-time and temporary work, and wages their benefits withdrawn as they are judged not to be are so low that half the children living in poverty are in seeking work. All that must stop, and the Work programme families that are in work. Even in the boom period, will give incentives to those who want to get back into wages actually fell as a percentage of GDP.Last month, work, and the support and opportunity to do so. RPI was at 5.1% and wages were at 2.3%, and many in We must repair decades of damage. It is easy for us my constituency and elsewhere, especially in the public on the Government Benches to blame the Opposition, sector, are facing a pay freeze over the next two years. but the problem goes back decades. The system has The reasons for the low pay are fairly straightforward. grown incrementally and the damage is there for all to We now have less than a third of workers in this country see. In some households, generation after generation covered by collective bargaining agreements, as a result have failed to engage in the world of work. This has of the weakening of trade union rights. encouraged ongoing low aspiration and poor lifestyle My fear is that, under these proposals, universal choices. Some of my hon. Friends gave examples of credit will fail, because none of the elements are in place that. My hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton to make it a success—a decent level of universal credit, South West (Paul Uppal) described how, when he was at the existence of jobs, or decent pay in those jobs. I think school, there were two distinct camps—those who aspired we will be left with the harsh residue of all the complaints to better themselves, and those who aspired just to live and problems that have been described today: the on benefits. I see the right hon. Member for Sheffield, sanctions—the loss of benefit for up to three years if a Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett) in his place. person refuses to co-operate in seeking work; cuts in As someone who grew up on a council estate in his housing benefit; the linkage of the housing allowance to constituency, I had that experience too. We need to CPI, which will inevitably result in cuts; the housing build aspiration, and we have policies in place to achieve benefit caps; and the room unoccupied scheme, which I that. The reform to welfare is crucial to getting our think is scandalous. All those factors will discredit a society working again. The reforms will set people free decent proposal, and that is why the Bill is not supportable from dependency and set them free to take advantage of today. the opportunities that we will give them. I want to use my last few seconds to say how appalled I am by the brutalisation of claimants by the privatised I want to say something about an end to the complex companies that have taken over the assessments and the system of tax credits. I appreciate that the introduction administration of benefits. The brutal treatment of my of tax credits was well intentioned as a way of alleviating constituents is a harshness that denigrates the entirety poverty for people in work, but they have had the of the work of the House and the Government. opposite effect. That is because the system is retrospective, so people apply for tax credits in good faith, only to be 4.58 pm faced with a whopping tax bill the following year because of a slight change in circumstances. That problem will Jackie Doyle-Price (Thurrock) (Con): I am very proud be eradicated by the universal credit because it will be of the measures before us. The Bill is one of the most assessed on a pay-as-you-go basis, and for that reason important pieces of legislation that the Government must be welcomed. have brought forward to date. It has the opportunity to have a revolutionary impact, not only on the welfare I firmly endorse the benefit cap. Far too many of my system but on society more generally. It will contribute constituents work hard and pay taxes, only to see their to building a fairer society—fairer for the millions of near neighbours enjoy a comfortable lifestyle living on taxpayers, many of them on modest incomes, whose benefits. I also welcome the obligations placed on claimants. taxes are inflated by having to support the current As condition of receiving benefit, people should surely welfare system, and fairer to claimants. It is fair that we do everything they reasonably can to find work. For target support to those most in need and fair that we many people that will be empowering. For someone give those who are fit and able to work every encouragement who has been in the same job for many years and to do so. suddenly finds themselves workless, the loss of confidence I shall focus most of my comments on the universal can be considerable. The support that they will get from credit and the impact that it will have on incentives to the Work programme to gain new skills will help them work. There are too many people in our society for and give them the confidence to go back into the world whom work does not pay. In those circumstances, who of work. That will be empowering. can blame them for choosing not to work? It is a rational economic choice. If they can get as much That is equally true of incapacity benefit claimants. income from sitting at home as they would from doing a Because a claimant is no longer able to do the job that day’s work, where is the incentive? they were doing before does not mean that they cannot 991 Welfare Reform Bill9 MARCH 2011 Welfare Reform Bill 992

[Jackie Doyle-Price] she is unable to leave her home or interact with people at all. Even when well, she is reluctant to take on retrain and do a different job. The support they will get additional stressful responsibilities because of her history from the Work programme will enable them to do that, of instability. and it will be empowering. The Bill is radical. It is brave, and it is necessary if we Chris Grayling: It is important, as people are listening are to tackle the endemic culture of benefit dependency to this debate, that the actual situation is placed on the that exists in our country. It has become more and more record. Will the hon. Lady confirm that the system that entrenched over the years, at the expense of the workless she is describing is the one that we inherited from the and the taxpayer. I am pleased to support the Bill. Labour Government, which we have taken steps to change through the Harrington review? In cases where 5.4 pm we have made changes to the assessment, the work was Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance): I welcome the done by the previous Government, whose recommendations opportunity to participate in the debate, because this we accepted. Finally, does she accept that, at the end of issue will have profound implications for the welfare all this, there is a collective desire to make sure that the and benefit system, and will impact on all our constituents. system works as well as possible and that there is a commitment to continue to improve it where possible? Time is limited, and the scope of the Bill is extensive, so I shall focus on a few key issues, the first of which is the proposed changes to disability living allowance, Naomi Long: I would like to confirm, on the first particularly the work capability assessment. The issue, that I am not making these points as a member of Government appear to place more emphasis on the the Labour party or of the previous Government but as independence of those who judge someone’s fitness for a member of the Alliance party, reflecting the concerns work, rather than on their expertise, which is of concern of my constituents. Furthermore, I would hope that to many people, particularly those who suffer from there is a collective will to ensure that people are dealt hidden, complex and often poorly understood conditions with fairly in the system. However, the doubts that I am with variable symptoms, including autistic spectrum expressing to the Minister have been expressed to me by disorders, mental health issues and multiple sclerosis. my constituents. A medically qualified assessor may be independent, A problem with single point assessment needs to be but not necessarily an expert in a particular condition. taken into consideration, and I urge the Minister to The single point assessment is unlikely to give a look carefully at the issue. The young lady in question, comprehensive view of an individual’s fitness to work for example, had a dual point assessment by the British that is more reliable than that provided by an expert in Medical Association on her fitness to practise. One the field who has treated and monitored the patient doctor said that she was fit to practise, and the other over a long period. The clinician will also follow professional said that she was not, because of the complex nature of ethics in making judgments about a patient, which her condition. Neither of them was wrong when they provides a safeguard for the Government. If expert dealt with the person in front of them, but her complex written evidence is available, it should be used and mental health condition prevented them from seeing the should carry more weight than the opinion of a benefits same individual in the same way. assessor, who may not have detailed expertise in dealing I do not believe that the problem arises solely with with those matters. mental health issues, but with many other conditions. People can have good days and bad days, and they may Dr Whiteford: As someone who represents a constituency need additional support. As the Bill progresses through that was part of the work capability assessment pilot, the House, it is hugely important that we address that one of the biggest concerns was that the evidence of issue. someone’s GP or consultant was not taken seriously by Much has been said about the removal of the mobility the medical assessors. Will the hon. Lady comment on component of the disability living allowance for those that? in residential care, so I will not rehearse the arguments, Naomi Long: That is a fundamental concern. One of but I have corresponded at length on it with the Under- my constituents recently came to Parliament, on behalf Secretary, and from her most recent correspondence I of the mental health charities Rethink and MindWise, am aware that there is a valid concern about the inconsistent to give evidence to the Select Committee on Work and way in which the needs of some of the most vulnerable Pensions about the impact of the assessment proposals people in society are being met. on people with mental health problems. Members who There is ambiguity and considerable variation in the met her at the round-table session would agree that she way in which local authorities take the DLA mobility presented her evidence in a professional, competent and component into account when making financial effective manner, as one would expect of someone with assessments, and organisations such as Disability Alliance a medical degree. However, her evidence carried weight acknowledge that point, but having identified the problem not because of her degree, but because she receives it is incumbent on the Government to ensure that the disability living allowance. She is not fit for work, and is solution does not end up disadvantaging the benefit’s not permitted to practise as a GP as a result of serious recipient, who did not create the difficulty in the first mental health issues, which developed in her final year place. Independent mobility is crucial to well-being and of study. to social cohesion, and it must be protected more clearly If a benefits assessor, even a medically qualified one, than it is in the current proposals. witnessed her performance in Committee, they would Finally on DLA, I am concerned about the change to doubtless assume that she was fully fit to work. However, the qualifying period, and its move from six months to her condition is unstable, and in periods of ill health, three months, which could have profound consequences 993 Welfare Reform Bill9 MARCH 2011 Welfare Reform Bill 994 for those who develop sudden onset conditions, such as support and lobby in this area support the principle of stroke, or experience the debilitating effects of treatment the Bill. Disappointingly, however, we have not had the for an illness, such as cancer. It could also affect those detail that would give people the confidence to commit who give birth to a child with a severe disability. to the Bill itself. At a time when people are genuinely in need, when their energy rightly needs to be focused elsewhere on 5.14 pm coping with diagnosis, treatment and recovery, and Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): I when additional stress should be avoided, the financial welcome not only the Bill but the fact that the coalition pressure of dramatically increased outgoings to cover Government have recognised the importance of dealing expenses, such as travel to hospital and so on, could with the huge financial and social failures of the current push them into poverty if that issue is not adequately welfare system. Within 10 months of being in government, addressed. I urge the Government to look again at that we are introducing a Bill that Labour Members and the unintended consequence of reform, and to take action previous Government shirked for 13 years. Because of to ensure that the personal independence payment is the Opposition’s lack of will, we have the lamentable available to support people at a time of genuine need. situation whereby welfare spending, which was £64 billion I welcome the Secretary of State’s assurance on in 1997, is projected to be £109 billion this year, and employment and support allowance for those taking 1.5 million people have spent most of the past decade oral chemotherapy. I trust, however, that he will also on out-of-work benefits. consider those who receive radiotherapy, which, although I have to say that I agree with the former Prime not as debilitating as chemotherapy, can nevertheless be Minister, Tony Blair, who stated in 1997: exhausting and preclude people from holding down “We have reached the limits of the public’s willingness simply work. to fund an unreformed welfare system through ever higher taxes”. Another concern that I want to touch on briefly is the If that was true in 1997, with the golden economic abolition of some discretionary aspects of the social legacy that the previous Labour Government were fund. Often, families who are trying to make ends meet bequeathed but went on to squander, one can only on a day-to-day basis find themselves pushed into financial surmise that, 13 years later, we are well over the limit of stress or even crisis by significant, unexpected and the public’s acceptance of welfare spending. We all unavoidable expenditure. The replacement of a heating know what, or rather who, were the roadblocks to boiler, a cooker or a fridge, or the need to purchase a reform: the then Chancellor of the Exchequer, the right school uniform, for example, will often leave low-income hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), families in a situation where only those discretionary together with his protégés, the current leader of the elements of the social fund, such as interest-free crisis Labour party and the current shadow Chancellor. How loans, stand between them and being forced to engage do we know this? Again, Mr Blair provides the answer with alternative high-interest and often unscrupulous in his memoirs when he states, with regard to welfare money lenders. There is an ongoing consultation on reform: that and I urge Ministers to await its conclusion before “I kept saying to Gordon, quite apart from the fact that both proceeding to legislate to remove those discretionary sets of proposals are manifestly right in themselves, if we don’t do elements. them, a future Tory government will”. In conclusion, and as I said at the outset, these are So here we are, as a Conservative-led coalition far-reaching reforms with far-reaching consequences. Government announcing the biggest and most overdue The Bill is arguably the biggest change to the welfare shake-up of the welfare system since the 1940s. We are state since its inception, and it warrants careful and replacing the previous Prime Minister’s micro-managed, detailed parliamentary scrutiny. Despite that imperative, command, dirigiste benefits system, which has created a much of what is intended remains poorly defined and benefits culture that is expensive, inefficient and will be ultimately defined not in this Bill or in any bureaucratic—and, perversely, provides a major disincentive subordinate legislation, but in regulations that the Minister to work—with a system that will ensure that work pays will lay, which in turn will reduce the parliamentary and no one is better off remaining on benefits when scrutiny of their effects. That extensive reliance on offered a job. The universal credit will provide a more unpublished regulations will make it incredibly difficult logical, efficient, secure and fair benefits system that for people to make a detailed assessment of the cumulative will demonstrate and reinforce the value of being in impact of these broad and sweeping changes. The Secretary work. All Members, and our constituents, should be of State was clearly frustrated, too, because he felt that aware that because of the transitional arrangements no at times people had misunderstood the thrust of his one on benefits will be worse off as a result of the proposals. Were there more substance to the Bill, that introduction of the universal credit. would be less likely. Having supported the aims of the Bill, let me move Furthermore, the inclusion of clauses relating to on to the some of the specifics. I have been contacted by child maintenance, when that matter is still the subject a number of constituents regarding the replacement of of public consultation, and the as yet undefined provisions the mobility aspect of the disability living allowance on child care costs, creates uncertainty in an area—the with the personal independence payment. I am reassured employability of lone parents and second earners in by the Secretary of State’s remarks on this part of the households—that strikes at the very heart of the Bill, when he said that DLA and its mobility component Government’s objectives to make work pay. will continue and will be reviewed at a future time. One of the most remarkable yet disappointing things However, the Government need to do as much as possible that struck me on reading through the briefings that to reassure those who are severely disabled and unable Members received in the run-up to the debate is that, to work that they will be protected and not lose their almost without exception, those organisations that actively entitlement. I have had constituents saying that they 995 Welfare Reform Bill9 MARCH 2011 Welfare Reform Bill 996

[Andrew Bridgen] there are real lessons to be learned from our efforts to change the system. Unless those lessons are learned, we fear they will lose their social interaction and effectively will reinvent the wheel all over again and there will be become prisoners in their own home. Those genuinely disappointment for those who believe that this Bill is disabled people must be informed that these changes the bee’s knees. Unfortunately, it is not. In 1998, when will be to their advantage. we set about reducing the unemployment claimant count to under 1 million for the first time in a quarter of a Mark Lazarowicz: The fact that such an obviously century and the labour force survey figures to below ultra-loyal Government Member has been getting such 1.5 million for the first time in 30 years, we did so not messages from his constituents suggests that things are just because the economy was expanding and there was not all right on the Government Benches. Does he agree growth, but because we were helping people from welfare that that is another reason why a bit more consultation into work. and time to consider the proposals would be better than Work is the best form of welfare; making work pay is the rushed way in which they are being brought forward? the right thing to do; promoting independence is sensible and logical; encouraging people to be self-reliant, including Andrew Bridgen: The Labour party had 13 years to through thrift and savings, really does make a difference; do something. Thirteen years ago, the right hon. Member and honesty in the benefits system is something that we for Birkenhead (Mr Field) was asked to think the should all aim at. The only problem is that the Bill does unthinkable; he did so, and then was promptly removed not achieve those things. If it did, I would be wholeheartedly from office. That shows Labour’s commitment to welfare in favour of it. I ask Ministers to take another look at reform. There will be plenty of time for consultation, the Centre for Social Justice report and to compare it and I can promise that plenty of Government Members with what is on offer this afternoon in this Bill. will be fighting for the rights of these vulnerable constituents. The detection of fraudulent claimants is key to the I will use the example of disability living allowance, success of this Bill. It is inexcusable that the current purely because I know more about issues relating to system is costing the taxpayer in excess of £5.2 billion a sight loss than about most other aspects of disability year because of welfare error and welfare fraud. There and welfare, despite my ministerial experience. Both could be a role for credit rating firms in helping to with the universal credit and DLA, we are in danger of identify households where there is reasonable evidence moving in the opposite direction from that which the that a fraudulent claim is perhaps being made. This can Government say is their policy. The introduction of the be achieved with greater data sharing across Government personal independence payment removes automatic Departments, and with the credit rating agencies, to entitlement for certain defined groups with specific ensure that the widest possible range of data are available. challenges, including blind people. I do not speak about We also need to ensure that fraud is indentified at the these issues very often in the House, but if we remove earliest point of the process; again, the credit rating the care component we also remove the mobility agencies can play a role. I welcome the development of component, which is about to be expanded in April, as the single investigation service and the three-strike rule was agreed to by Members in all parts of the House and in the Bill. We will see a reduction in fraud only if false hard fought for by those responsible over a considerable claimants have a serious fear of being caught, and of period. To do that will have a perverse effect, and the facing a penalty if they are caught. opposite effect to that which was intended. Instead of promoting a can-do approach that makes it possible for In conclusion, the Bill gives our country the chance people to get out of a position of dependence, the to reverse a benefits culture that has become a huge proposal will trap people in that position. black hole sucking in large numbers of people and huge amounts of taxpayers’ money. The Bill will release The perversity is best demonstrated on page 16 of millions of people from the misery of welfare dependency “Disability Living Allowance reform”, which was published and break the intergenerational cycle of worklessness, in December. It gives examples of what the system will which costs this country so much not only financially mean and talks about testing whether someone is capable of but socially. The Secretary of State deserves great credit “planning and making a journey, and understanding and for his relentless work over many years on this issue. communicating with others.” The successful passage of the Bill will make welfare a However, the whole purpose of disability living allowance floor on which people can build, rather than a ceiling was that because they received it people were able to do that it is impossible for them to break through. those things, not that it trapped people by doing those things for them. Whereas the work capability assessment 5.20 pm is about what someone can do, the new test for disability Mr David Blunkett (Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough) living allowance, under its new title, will be about what (Lab): This has been an interesting and instructive four they cannot do. That leads to dishonesty, with people and a half hours. There have been some excellent contributions, presenting what they cannot do in their worst circumstances, including from some Government Members, although not in their best. With the new universal credit, people not from the hon. Member for North West Leicestershire will be encouraged to save but then penalised when (Andrew Bridgen), who has just spoken. they do. I say to the hon. Members for Bexleyheath and Every step in the Bill that will have a positive outcome Crayford (Mr Evennett) and for Kingswood (Chris is trumped by an administrative complexity that will Skidmore) that we should not reinvent history but learn make the situation worse. We are all in favour of simplicity, from it. Having been the Secretary of State for Education but the problem is that simplicity does not usually lead and Employment for four years and later briefly the to equity. That is why we have ended up with the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, I think that complex system that Members have described this 997 Welfare Reform Bill9 MARCH 2011 Welfare Reform Bill 998 afternoon. If we could have produced a simpler system Sarah Newton: I am very grateful for that question, quickly and easily, we would already have it. We laid out and the answer is absolutely not at all. A great number principles in September 2005 that I believe have stood of people in our country absolutely deserve support. In the test of time, but unless the Government listen, and fact, I shall argue later that I believe they deserve more unless they review and understand what has happened support. in the past, we will go through the same problems all Let me explain what I mean by giving some examples. over again. Can it be fair to encourage a couple who would otherwise want to live together and raise a family to live apart 5.26 pm because single parents have a better chance of securing social housing, or to encourage someone who wants to Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): Thank work more hours to work fewer for fear of losing you for calling me to speak this afternoon, Madam benefits? Can it be fair to abandon people who have lost Deputy Speaker. It is a great pleasure and honour to their jobs and need help to retrain and build their follow the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside self-confidence to a life of poverty without support? and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett), who spoke so well None of those things are fair. The intention of the Bill from his own experience, as did my hon. Friends the is re-establish the contract between all in society, and to Members for Wolverhampton South West (Paul Uppal) give a clear message that if people are able to work and and for Thurrock (Jackie Doyle-Price). The debate has to play their part in society, we will help them to do so been enlightening. and it will be worth their while, and that if people have a problem that prevents them from looking after themselves Those of us who have worked as either paid employees and their family, we will be there for them. or volunteers on behalf of people who come into contact with the benefit system know that reform is overdue. Many people would like more rather than less help The overhaul enabled by the Bill, and by other actions for our elderly citizens and our disabled citizens who are that the coalition is taking to integrate and localise unable to work, and for carers who do the incredibly services, is most welcome for people in our society who important job of caring for their loved ones. I hope we need help. The daily battles of trying to claim benefits, can provide such help by taking the tough decisions appeal against decisions and fight through expensive now to establish a sustainable economy with less public bureaucracy are draining on the human spirit, let alone and private debt and a more sustainable level of public the taxpayer’s purse. expenditure, and by growing more sustainable enterprise that will enable people to earn a living wage and to look The practical improvements and efficiency savings after themselves better. that will come with benefit simplification are important. However, I believe that the importance of the Bill goes I am a Conservative MP because I want to create a well beyond that vital endeavour. The contract between fair compassionate society, in which people of all people in our society is expressed, in part, in our provision backgrounds have the opportunity and hope to reach of welfare. That is part of our expression of the their potential. “Jack’s as good as his master” is a great responsibility that we have for each other. I like the Cornish expression. It is ingrained in me to value and conditionality in the Bill, which underscores the principle treat all people equally. Any civilised society should be of the contract that people in our society have. It is built judged by how it takes care of its weakest members. By on the clear and settled view that as British people, we that measure the previous Government failed, despite are all responsible for ourselves and our families. Just as years of increased public expenditure and huge national importantly, it is also our responsibility to care for our debt. neighbours and our communities to the extent that we I am sure that not every word in the Bill is perfect, but can. We are each responsible for doing all we can to there will plenty of opportunity to make improvements provide for our own needs and those of our family and as the Bill passes through the House and we learn the community. lessons of the consultations currently being undertaken. I am proud to serve in a Parliament that will deliver the Our social contract is also built on an understanding fundamental reform that our country needs. The measures that not all people are able to look after themselves in the Bill will be introduced over a number of years, even at all times throughout their lives. Sometimes stretching into the next Parliament, so I believe that we individuals and their families need emotional and will look back on today as the start of a fundamental practical support to meet their needs, including financial process that rebuilds the contract between people in our support. society. I am delighted to support the Bill today. That contract has made us a progressive society. However, over the course of my lifetime, as overall standards of living have risen considerably, I have seen 5.32 pm well-intentioned but unwelcome consequences of the Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ development of that fundamental social contract into a Co-op): Like many hon. Members on both sides of the welfare state. For too many people it has created a House, many of my constituents and many organisations culture of dependency and robbed them of a sense of have contacted me about their concerns about the Bill. worth, well-being and good health. It has also brought Given that many other hon. Members want to speak, I into question the fundamental principle of fairness that shall highlight only a few of those. is so characteristic of Britishness. The changes in housing benefit will in due course feed into the housing element of the universal credit. Dame Anne Begg: Does the hon. Lady believe that Without going into all the details, there is no doubt that anyone who receives any welfare benefit is by definition many people in my constituency will be seriously welfare-dependent? disadvantaged by those proposals. People will be driven 999 Welfare Reform Bill9 MARCH 2011 Welfare Reform Bill 1000

[Mark Lazarowicz] Parents and carers for adults with autism have also raised concerns with me, although other hon. Members into poverty, and in some cases, driven out of their have also discussed those concerns today, so I shall not current housing. The fact is that for all the press stories repeat them. There have also been concerns about child we read—they are sometimes repeated by Government maintenance charges being imposed on those still required Members—about people living in luxury housing benefit to use the child maintenance system. accommodation, any such cases are few and far between, I want briefly to refer to concerns about the changes if the ones we read about are genuine, which is doubtful. to DLA. When I intervened on my right hon. Friend the We should not allow the debate to be distorted by a few Member for Stirling (Mrs McGuire), I mentioned the extreme examples that, if genuine, need to be tackled. concerns raised with me by a number of parents of Hon. Members will recall that in his Budget statement children with disabilities in my constituency. Of course last year, the Chancellor of the Exchequer referred to I recognise that the children concerned will not be “families receiving £104,000 a year in housing benefit.”—[Official subject to regular reassessments while they remain children. Report, 22 June 2010; Vol. 512, c. 174.] However, those parents have raised with me their concerns I pursued that with a number of written questions. I that in years to come their children may no longer have have still not had the exact figure from the DWP, which their support and assistance in submitting applications I suspect is because only a handful of families are in for DLA or its successor. Those children will find that situation. If we are to have a serious debate, we themselves in a vulnerable position if they are forced to should talk about the realities on the ground, not fake undergo regular reassessments for conditions that will figures that are designed to scare people and distort the quite patently not change. real debate that we need to have. Those parents are right to be concerned—indeed, it is There are precious few areas in which forcing down not surprising that they are—given that the backdrop to housing benefit costs will affect market rent. In most the Government’s policies is a 20% cut in the DLA cases, the market rent will become further diverged budget. The Government may say that some of the from housing benefit. As I said, as a result, people will fears that have been expressed are unfounded. However, be driven out of their housing, and perhaps forced to if that is the case, they have brought it on themselves by leave their communities or forced to go to areas where rushing the consultation on DLA, which closed only they do not get support from family and friends either nine days before the Bill was published, and because so in or out of work. many of today’s measures depend on further regulations being introduced at a later stage. Unsurprisingly, that It may be the case, as the hon. Member for Bromsgrove has led to suspicions on the part of those who are likely (Sajid Javid) said, that the Government’s changes will to be affected by the changes. affect the market in cases where housing benefit tenants Perhaps the underlying reason for those concerns is form a large proportion of the rented market. However, that we know that today’s changes are being driven in in constituencies such as mine, there are lots of student two ways: by a wish to reform the system—I accept the properties, holiday lets and those whom one might Government’s good intentions in that—but also by a describe as young professionals. They are a major element wish to cut spending. The fact is that the Government’s in the rented housing sector, and they are certainly not prime concern is cutting the budget as soon as possible— going to go away, meaning that those on housing benefit that is the driver for today’s proposals—not, I am will no longer be able to afford their existing housing. afraid, reforming the welfare system, which is something That is certainly a concern that has been expressed to on which we should all able to agree across the House, if me by housing associations in my constituency. we had the time to discuss and debate it, and if we had the time to consider the views of outside organisations Stephen Lloyd: Does the hon. Gentleman see nothing that have real concerns about it. untoward about more than 5,000 families in the UK receiving more than £25,000 a year in housing benefit, Several hon. Members rose— which is equivalent to earning a salary of £80,000 to £90,000 a year? Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. Just before I call the next speaker, may I point out that Mark Lazarowicz: In each case, we have to look at the 14 Members are trying to catch the Chair’s eye? I want circumstances of the individuals concerned. However, to get everyone in, so if Members can take as little time the idea put forward by the Government that at the top as possible, that would be helpful. end of the scale there are large numbers of people receiving £104,000 a year illustrates the distortions that 5.39 pm some people want to introduce into this debate. Brandon Lewis (Great Yarmouth) (Con): I should Another concern that housing associations in my like to thank the Secretary of State for the assurances constituency have raised with me is about the over- that he gave to cancer sufferers and their friends and accommodation rules, which were mentioned by the families. Will the Minister of State, Department for hon. Member for Manchester, Withington (Mr Leech). Work and Pensions, my right hon. Friend the Member Those rules will have many consequences that will be for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling) also assure us detrimental to both housing providers and individual that he will examine how we can deal with the inequality tenants. One of the housing associations in my area has that exists between cancer sufferers who have intravenous made the point that it may have a perfectly reasonable treatment and those who have oral treatment? There is policy of providing people with an extra room, so as to an unfair disparity between them at the moment. Science allow access visits by children from a relationship, but and medicine have moved forward, but our system has those people would then no longer be entitled to housing not kept up with that progress. It would be good if we benefit to reflect that extra room. could do something for those sufferers. 1001 Welfare Reform Bill9 MARCH 2011 Welfare Reform Bill 1002

I represent an area with above-average unemployment. risk, and I applaud her for doing it. That is the kind of That is one of the legacies of the Labour Government, spirit that the new system will help to encourage. It will who forgot about the problems experienced by some of also provide support through the use of the taper. the coastal towns and about their regeneration. They Labour clearly does not understand the disincentive took away public sector workers, and disincentivised to work that exists at the moment. In some cases, there people from working and businesses from investing and is a 96% marginal deduction, and that is simply not from employing people, through their heavy regulatory sustainable if we want to encourage people to work. I system. There are people in my constituency who are applaud the Bill, because it could really help to motivate second and even third generation unemployed. That and support people in my constituency, and help them presents a problem that has two sides. On the one side, to get back into work. That is what matters: people we have residents who work hard and who air their getting back to work and employers wanting to employ frustration at what they perceive to be the injustice of them. That is what this entire package can give us, and people who do not work and who stay at home having a that is why I applaud the Bill. lifestyle that is similar to that of the people who work all those hours. We need a system that will change that. The Bill is courageous in introducing some great changes, 5.44 pm and it could start to change that as well, so that people Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): Unfortunately, unlike who work hard would realise that they are not simply the hon. Member for Great Yarmouth (Brandon Lewis), subsidising people who do not want to work. I am not in a position to applaud the Bill, simply On the flipside of that coin are the people who want because there are not enough provisions in it to tell us to work but who cannot find a job or who are not whether it will provide a working model for a benefit properly trained for work. I have constituents who are system that will achieve what the Government say they crying out for the right kind of support and training to want to achieve—namely, a simplified benefit system enable them to apply for the jobs that are out there. with improved incentives to work. We could all agree There are jobs beyond those that they might hear about with those principles, but our problem on Second Reading in the jobcentre. The local press and organisations such is that the Bill lacks significant content about how many as Jobcentre Plus do a great job in advertising the wide of the detailed provisions will work in practice. We are variety of jobs available, and this can enable people in told that the details of various schemes and measures areas such as Great Yarmouth to understand that they will be provided later—as the hon. Member for Belfast could be well trained enough to have the option to find East (Naomi Long) said, it will be by way of regulation. work, not only in Great Yarmouth but in the wider That makes it unreasonable, on the basis of so little community, perhaps in Norwich or even beyond, where detail, to expect Members lightly to endorse such a Bill, jobs exist that they could reasonably commute to. which is so pregnant with implications for so many people in our society. What I applaud most about the Bill is that it will If Governments are to be encouraged to support introduce a move to a simpler system, and the evidence evidence-based policy, this House should deal only with presented to the Select Committee shows that that is substance-based legislation. I often hear the Government universally what people want. They want a system that saying that they agree with the principle and stated they can understand. Too many people have come to objectives of a private Member’s Bill, but because they my surgeries who simply do not understand the system see serious difficulties in how it might work in practice and cannot get the support that they need because of and because many of the details have not been worked that. Even some of the experts working in the system do out, they do not accept it and vote the Bill down. not understand it. Frankly, that is exactly how I feel about this Government Bill. Although many of us endorse the objectives and A single mother with two children came to see me recognise the problems in the existing system, we are recently. She had a job which paid her £15,000 a year for worried about the direction in which the Government working three days a week. She wanted to work five will end up travelling. days a week, and her company wanted her to do that as well. She phoned the tax office to ask what the implications Members have already referred to the change from of that would be, so that she could work out whether disability living allowance to the personal independence she could afford to do it. It is crazy that we live in a payment. Some of us participated in a Westminster society in which someone has to make a phone call to Hall debate about that this morning. One important see whether they can afford to take a job that will pay point is that we do not yet know from the Government £25,000 a year. what the implications of those provisions will be for carers. They have told us that they want to create a new The most worrying aspect of the story, however, was deal for carers, but they have not given us any estimate the fact that the tax office could not answer her question. of how many carers will be affected as a result of the There are 30 different kinds of benefit, and a tax system changeover to personal independence payments. The that is set out over thousands of pages, so it is no Government have a lot more to tell us; only after they wonder that, when someone is offered a well-paid job, have told us would some of us be in a position to accept they cannot work out—even with the help of experts— their assurances. whether they can afford to accept it. I congratulate that The universal credit is proposed to replace quite a person, because she decided to take the job even though number of existing benefits: working tax credit, child the experts told her that the tax calculation would be tax credit, housing benefit, council tax benefit, income-based done in arrears and it would be a year before they could jobseeker’s allowance and income-related employment tell her what sums would be involved, and whether they and support allowance. We know about the existing would need to claw any money back. She took quite a complexities and difficulties with many of those benefits, 1003 Welfare Reform Bill9 MARCH 2011 Welfare Reform Bill 1004

[Mark Durkan] do they apply today? My supposition is that they do. Today, 10.4 million people of working age in the United so we cannot just take it on assumption that there will Kingdom are not working, 5.9 million are claiming be no problems bringing them all together. We cannot out-of-work benefits, and more than 2 million children take it on assumption that there will not be any serious live in households in which no one is working. It was the transitional difficulties; neither, on the basis of past great Nye Bevan who said: experience, can we take it for granted that the administration “There is no test for progress other than its impact on the system, the infrastructure for delivery and the information individual.” technology used for the new system will not have any Yet, today 3.9 million children still live below the poverty problems. line. Some progress! Surely it is time to do something We know the stated intentions for tax credits, but we different. also know about all the problems that resulted. We I support the Bill’s Second Reading because I believe know the stated intentions for employment and support that, in the main, it approaches this intransigent issue allowance, but we also know about the many difficulties intelligently and constructively. The nation has got stuck, surrounding its delivery. It would therefore be naive if and it has got stuck because of the system. I do not the House simply said to the Government, “Carry on think that anyone in the Government is particularly at regardless; we like your stated intentions; we are not fault, because the problem has built up over the past going to frisk you for any further details or caution you 40 years. A key part of breaking the system, which I against any possible risks to our constituents.” believe the Bill is doing, is making work pay—a concept Issues in the Bill might have complicated effects in the that the Secretary of State has championed for some context of Northern Ireland. When it comes to universal time—and that means changing the tax and benefit credit, the Bill makes presumptions about child care system. provision, but Northern Ireland, of course, is not covered I will not go into all the details, because I am sure that by the Childcare Act 2006 and it does not have the same everyone in the Chamber is well aware of them, but, as infrastructure for child care as elsewhere. That poses some Members have already pointed out, more often serious challenges about how the scenario painted by than not there is no point in people coming off benefit the Government will work out for Northern Ireland. and going into work because they will be worse off as a Further issues stem from the fact that Northern result. A constituent of mine, a single mum with three Ireland does not have council tax, which affects rate kids who is on housing benefit and the rest, has not relief. We will have to see how that will be administered worked for 15 years. The rational option for her is to from Whitehall and what degree of discretion the Whitehall stay on benefit, and if I were her that is what I would Government will allow the Northern Ireland Assembly do. It would be insane for her to come off benefit: she and Executive to have in respect of delivering locally for would probably lose out under the system that we have Northern Ireland the framework created by the Bill. had for years, and what would happen if she lost her job As I have pointed out before, many people in Northern in a few months’ time? The system is insane, and the Bill Ireland live and work on a cross-border basis. Many attempts to transform it. people on benefit who want to get jobs might find one across the border. The issue of providing tax credits for Naomi Long: Another potential benefit of removing cross-border workers is fraught with all sorts of difficulties the limit on the number of hours that can be worked by and frustrations. We do not yet know how the replacement claimants—currently about 16—is that employers would scheme is going to work. There is a danger that cross-border be more likely to take on people part-time, such as lone workers—those who live and work on either side of the parents, because they would have more flexibility. border—could find themselves in serious difficulties. That is why many of us are not just suspicious about Stephen Lloyd: I agree with every word that the hon. some of the Government’s intentions, which we fear Lady said. may result in punitive measures for many people on How are we to help people back into work when they benefits, but sceptical about whether enough work has have been receiving incapacity benefit, jobseeker’s allowance been done in terms of the detail of the Bill and how it or a similar benefit? As I said when I intervened on the will affect our constituents. That is why many of us do right hon. Member for Croydon North, the Bill will not feel able to support the Bill’s Second Reading, and if provide much more money for training providers to give others are prepared to oppose it, I am prepared to join them an incentive to focus on people who have been on them. benefit for a long time, and make it worth their while to spend extra time and resources helping those people 5.50 pm back into work. The right hon. Gentleman said that the Bill copies measures taken by the previous Government Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD): Given the breadth in that regard. That is true to an extent, but it does a of the Bill, I intend to focus on the work aspects. great deal more than that. The right hon. Member for Croydon North (Malcolm In the past 24 hours, I have been in touch with the Wicks) is no longer in the Chamber, but I trust that he National Audit Office, according to which the average will not mind if I, too, quote Beveridge, who famously payment from the DWP to training providers for pathways said: to work was £1,003 per job. Under the current proposals, “Want is one only of five giants on the road of reconstruction; the providers will be paid a minimum of £3,800 and a others are Disease, Ignorance, Squalor, and Idleness.” maximum of £13,700. What lies behind the Bill is our As we all know, those words were written at a time of recognition of the fact that people have been “parked” real poverty for many people in the United Kingdom. for years, which is outrageous. Whichever side of the How do they apply today, in the 21st century? Indeed, Chamber we are on, we know that if the many people 1005 Welfare Reform Bill9 MARCH 2011 Welfare Reform Bill 1006 who have been out of work for a long time are to be This is a Government who are introducing a Work helped, they will need that extra effort, extra mentoring programme that will help 250,000 fewer people than the and extra time. The only way in which we shall persuade programmes it replaces. training providers to do that is by stuffing their mouths with gold, as Bevan said in the ’50s in respect of the Chris Grayling: It is very important to deal with this British Medical Association. The Bill attempts to achieve point head on. That is absolutely not the case: every that by making training providers feel it is worth their single person on JSA or ESA who needs and wants while expending the extra effort to get people back into support through the Work programme will get it, and work, which is tremendous. the total numbers will be higher than under the previous The previous Government introduced the black box Government. concept, and I am glad that we are building on that to start using subcontractors’ imaginative ideas. That is all Mr Bain: If Members look at the details of what is good and very rational, and it is a simple solution, too. being spent on the Work programme, they will see it Members on both sides of the House know that, where does not match up to the initiatives of the previous possible, work is the best route out of poverty. Government. There are downsides, however. The economy is We also foresee huge problems for the losers under challenged—that is the best word I can use. I spoke to a these reforms. Labour supports a simplification of the senior disability spokesperson the day before yesterday. universal credit system, but it must be a fair simplification. I said, “Well, it’s obviously very hard for us to get all Yes, about 1 million households will benefit, but it is these extra people into jobs when we’re faced with such absurd that that is being paid for by 1.7 million households a difficult economic situation.” She replied, “Stephen, with incomes of between £16,000 and £24,000 losing you’re absolutely right, but at least if we start doing the out. The squeezed middle will not only be defined; they spadework now it is just possible that when the economy will be heard loud and clear in respect of the money turns in a couple of years the foundations will have they will lose as a result of this Government’s policies. been laid and a lot of people who might have seen themselves as never working again could, through the The Government have shown a bizarre lack of clarity mentoring, be in a position to be able to be swept along regarding whether self-employed people hoping to start with the upswing in the economy.” I certainly hope so, a new business will be eligible for the universal credit. because it is very difficult to achieve such radical reforms The transition for individuals to the universal credit now when we face an economic crisis. lacks detail and could create disincentives. The credit I want to give a message to the Minister, and I am does not deal with transport costs to and from work, sorry that all his colleagues are not present, as this and the cash protection for individuals’ incomes will applies to the entire ministerial team. The Bill is tremendous; apply only until their circumstances change, which could it is a glass-half-full Bill and it recognises that we have be only a few weeks after taking up a job if their hours to spend money, which is why I appreciate the Secretary of work are altered. Changes to crisis loan alignment of State getting the £2.5 billion from the Treasury. We payments are also likely to affect many claimants. No have to pour money into this problem to transform the work has been done to identify the costs of transferring situation, but we must change the language if we are to delivery to local authorities, or to identify the most get people who for years have been on IB or other affected groups. benefits back into work. Labour Members know that one of the best means of The Bill is clearly designed to do that, which is why it reducing child poverty is to encourage more second approaches the issue in such a constructive way. I was in earners to take on part-time work around their family Burnley with the Work and Pensions Committee a or care commitments. It is extraordinary that the proposals couple of days ago. A training provider who is very in the Bill will reduce the work incentives for up to successful in getting people into work said, “If there’s 330,000 second earners. This is not a strategy that will one message to give to the Government it is this: respect. reduce child poverty in the short or medium term. Use the right words, and treat people who have been on Despite the Secretary of State’s statement today, there is IB and on benefits for a long time with respect.” I a shocking lack of clarity about the provision of child therefore say that we must use the right words. care, the cost of which presents a huge barrier, particularly for women returning to the labour market. Council tax The Bill is fit for purpose. I think it will transform the benefit is being devolved to local authorities in a completely situation, and I will support it on Second Reading. unspecified way that lacks clarity and threatens to create new disincentives to work. 5.57 pm The Institute for Fiscal Studies has concluded that, Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab): It is a overall, under the universal credit the incentive to work pleasure to be called to speak in this debate. for low earners will be stronger for single people and for With more than 2.5 million people unemployed, youth those in couples where one partner does not work, but unemployment soaring to 20% and persistent levels of that it will weaken incentives for couples to have both intergenerational unemployment, it is clear that the partners in work, owing to a higher withdrawal rate status quo is not working. The hon. Member for Eastbourne than the current tax credit system. It has also concluded (Stephen Lloyd) cited Beveridge, but Beveridge and the that lone parents will lose out in the long term. Labour Government of 1945 envisaged the welfare This week, the Social Market Foundation established state as a system that would redistribute not just wealth that 400,000 families with children that currently receive but power and opportunity. It was a welfare state built tax credits will lose their entire eligibility for financial on reciprocity, but we cannot characterise the package support under the universal credit if they have savings of reforms in the Bill as being built on sufficient reciprocity. of more than £16,000, and that a further 200,000 families 1007 Welfare Reform Bill9 MARCH 2011 Welfare Reform Bill 1008

[Mr Bain] people understand it and we do not spend so much money on bureaucracy?” This Government answer those with savings of between £6,000 and £16,000 will lose questions by saying, “Actually, we can.” some of their entitlements. As Ian Mulheim, the director This welfare package contains many elements. Hon. of the foundation, said, Members have focused on different ones, but I wish to “The Universal Credit will punish working families trying to focus briefly on the social fund. It contains many diverse save for the future, such as those trying to get a foot on the elements but, as the hon. Member for Belfast East property ladder.” (Naomi Long) identified, it is the crisis loans that have We urge the Government to reconsider the shambolic been growing most recently. In the past year, there were way in which they have designed the credit, and to 2.7 million loans to 1.1 million people. Although the introduce a more adequate Bill that is fit for purpose. number of people taking crisis loans has grown rapidly—it On housing benefit, the hon. Member for Manchester, has doubled over four years—the number of individual Withington (Mr Leech) mentioned the incredibly harmful loans has grown even faster. That, in itself, has driven a effects of the proposal to extend the shared-room rate big increase in the administration costs of the scheme, from people aged under 25 to those up to the age of 35. which have risen from £70 million in 2007 to £120 million Some 88,000 people across the country will lose out, last year. Of course it is right that we provide extra with an average loss of £47 a week. In Glasgow, my support for people in times of personal crisis, but it is home city, the impact will be to move people from the also right to question those rates of growth. social rented sector into the private rented sector, with a There are many other problems with the social fund: resulting increase in rents. a lack of awareness, particularly about community care The Secretary of State has not been able to give the grants; the long processing times that sometimes occur; House sufficient assurances on the disability living and, on occasion, perverse incentives. One such incentive allowance. Yes, we hear of a review, but he has not results in families applying for loans for cookers and taken back, nor has he had permission from the Treasury beds because they are “priority items”, even if they are to recoup, the amount he proposed to save by withdrawing not actually the things that are most needed at the time. the mobility component. His own Social Security Advisory It is right to devolve these programmes to a local Committee has referred to the terrible impact of the level, where the authorities know their areas more and loss of independence that people who lose the mobility are better able to put families in touch with other local component will experience. We therefore urge the services that can help them. Work can be done with, for Government not just to review these proposals but to example, citizens advice bureaux on referrals, and with withdraw them. food banks and furniture recycling programmes, such On the move to personal independence payments, we as Furniture Helpline, in Bordon, in my constituency. think it unacceptable to require a disabled person to Credit unions can also play an enhanced role, although wait six months—double the length of time under the we must recognise the limits to that, both in terms of present system—before coming eligible. Richard Hamer, geographical coverage and the client groups they are director of external affairs at Capability Scotland, has geared up to serve. I wish to thank the Department for said: Work and Pensions for another announcement last week on support for credit unions. An extra £73 million “The welfare benefits system is the UK Government’s strongest tool to promote equality for disabled people. The changes announced is being provided for capitalisation and for the development in the Welfare Reform Bill will instead push disabled people and of something that many hon. Members on both sides of those who care for them further into poverty.” the House have requested for a long time: a robust I encourage Members throughout the House to seek back-office system that will enable credit unions to a better Bill than the one the Government have proposed work more closely with post offices. That, combined today. I urge Members to vote for the amendment and with the imminent legislative reform order, which will to seek a better Bill than the shoddy and shambolic allow credit unions to grow more, will mean that they effort the Government have proposed today. will be able to fulfil an even more important role in providing responsible, affordable financial services to some of the poorest people in this country. 6.4 pm The reforms to the social fund are just one part of a Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con): As some large and radical package of measures. Some issues still hon. Members are still waiting to speak, I shall strive need extra attention, as Ministers acknowledged today. for brevity. We are, of course, debating the principle of The position of cancer sufferers is one such issue, as is the Bill, which I am very proud to support, and we will the mobility component of disability living allowance, vote on whether we get the chance to discuss in Committee but I suspect that, deep in their hearts, many Opposition many of the important issues that hon. Members on Members support the principles behind this ambitious, both sides of the House have rightly raised. We will also bold and compassionate Bill, and I urge them to vote vote on whether to progress with the Bill’s central with us to move forward on those central themes. reform: the universal credit, which is ambitious, bold and compassionate. 6.8 pm I am sure that we have all had discussions with our Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab): I approached constituents in which they say, “Why can’t we just have this debate hoping that all of us in this House recognise a benefits system that means that you are always better the importance of the dignity of work for our population off in work than out of work? Why can’t we have a and recognise the dignity of living in a society where we system where everybody who can work does work and are concerned for the welfare of people who fall on where we provide proper support to those who can’t? hard times. That is the basis of our social security Why can’t we just simplify the whole system so that system and we are judged on how we deal with the most 1009 Welfare Reform Bill9 MARCH 2011 Welfare Reform Bill 1010 vulnerable. So the remarks that have been made about organisation that supports the blind. I am particularly people living with disabilities are particularly pertinent concerned by what the Secretary of State has said. He to the kind of society we want to live in. We have heard was vague at best about his proposals and much has remarks from Members on both sides of the House that been kicked into a review. Many people will be left in cut to the heart of that kind of society. huge uncertainty and it is unfair that someone who is I am not able to vote with the Government on the blind, who is trying to live an independent lifestyle and Bill. I say that coming from a working-class background who perhaps has a family, not to know what kind of in which my parents, both of whom are dead now, assessment they will receive, how regularly they will would literally run out of the door to work because they receive it and the scale of their benefits afterwards, valued work so much. We survived on income support. because the Secretary of State cannot provide those For us, child benefit meant being able to buy school answers. I welcome the simplification of the system and uniforms and books, and there was a period when I the desire to see people in work and gaining the dignity experienced free school meals. Speaking in this debate, I that comes with that, but people outside will be very am thinking about the many people outside the Chamber concerned, and the son of anyone who has received who rely on the welfare state and social security who benefits in the past could not support the Bill as it stands. will be very anxious about what has been said at the Dispatch Box. 6.14 pm The first reason why I cannot vote for the Bill concerns Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): I rise in support of worklessness. One has to acknowledge the progress of the Government, very conscious that a large number of moving to a universal credit system, but the reforms are people will have legitimate and sincere concerns about being made against a backdrop of huge worklessness in the Bill. For example, I asked one local activist, who communities such as mine and we have a residual leads the Zacchaeus 2000 Trust, to critique the Prime memory of the past. When Labour came to office in Minister’s recent speech, and his response ran to 23 pages. 1997, unemployment in Tottenham was at 28%; it is I regret that due to the time I will not be able to share currently the highest in London. We remember a similar his concerns, but I will forward them to the Government programme to the workfare programme called the youth for interest. training scheme. We remember the Manpower Services I do not think there can be any doubt that the system Commission and the 58% of people on YTS who did is currently failing the very people that it is intended to not finish it and who certainly did not leave it with any help. I want to share with the House two stories from qualifications or job opportunities, so we scrutinise my constituents—one that shows the imperative for what this workfare programme will mean, and it seems change and one that has slightly broader applicability. lacking when we look at what is replacing the current Miss Rachel Pepin came to see me in a state of some system. We know there will be less money in the kitty anguish. She is a struggling single mum who wants to than there is now and we cannot understand how the work more. She is in employment and the work is there Government can move to the new system while withdrawing for her, but she cannot take it because of the benefits £6.2 billion from the current credit schemes. That is system. She has two sons whose father will not support £6.2 billion that will not be available to some of the them. It seems that every time the Child Support Agency poorest families in the country. The Bill will need a lot catches up with him, he drops out on to jobseeker’s of scrutiny in Committee in the context of worklessness, allowance. Her current housing benefit receipt makes it particularly the situation facing the young, and I hope profitable to stay on income support and actively not to to play a role in that. seek work. She has reached the conclusion that it simply The second reason I cannot vote for the Bill is because does not pay her to stay in employment. She sees her of where it will leave women and families. Much has neighbours—on benefits—better off than she is. been said about the situation regarding the second I am glad to say that that is not how Rachel Pepin earner when there are two earners in the home. The Bill wants to live. She wants to work, and she is struggling will hurt both families and marriage, and I am surprised against the treacle of the present system. It is letting her to see the coalition Government, who say they value down, and that must end. Not everyone will share her marriage, doing something that will clearly hurt families admirable work ethic. Many will make the wrong choice by taking this punitive approach to the second income. when faced with the choice between being better off Also, many of us are dealing with local authorities and doing the right thing. We must ensure that work is that are withdrawing support for services in our better for everyone, or we will encourage the decivilising communities, such as after-school clubs. I agree with consequences of the state encouraging bad choices. the single mothers in my constituency who say to me, My constituent Mr David Laws—[Interruption.] I “Listen, those activities that our children partake in expected that response from the House; I believe that he when school finishes at 3.30 pm are not a luxury but a is not related. Mr Laws is most concerned about the necessity because we go out to work and work finishes recent changes that will end home loan interest payments at about 5.30 pm, and then we have to get home and after two years. He wishes to protest most strongly pick them up.” That money is being cut against the about the “unfairness of this legislation”, as he puts it. backdrop of the proposal in the Bill massively to reduce He has been out of work for some time. He says he is child care allowances. How can we do that to women up not workshy. He has a law degree and has experience of and down the country whom we encourage, and want, both public and private sectors. At the age of 51, he to work? That is another reason why we should not vote finds that many employers do not think him suitable for for the Bill. the low-paid jobs that are available. He finds himself Another reason why I will not vote for the Bill is willing to do anything but unable to find work. He because of the visit I had from the Haringey Phoenix therefore faces the very real possibility of losing his Group in my constituency—a wonderful voluntary home if he fails to secure a job before April 2012. 1011 Welfare Reform Bill9 MARCH 2011 Welfare Reform Bill 1012

[Steve Baker] I am concerned, first, that the benefit will not deliver well for women. Half of women in poor households That puts me in mind of two points. First, I think already do not have any money to spend on themselves. Mr Laws has a legitimate concern, which must be Money will now be paid only to one member in a addressed. Secondly, if we cannot create an economy in couple. As the evidence of the pension credit shows us, which Mr Laws can find a job within a year when he is where there is a choice as to which member of the couple highly qualified and at the peak of his productivity, we is to receive the benefit—I understand that that is what will have failed. I urge the Government to impress on Ministers intend for this benefit—77% of payments the Chancellor the need to fulfil his pledge for an went to the man. I urge Ministers to examine closely the enterprise-driven Budget. We simply must deliver those design of the benefit that they have created and its private sector jobs. implications for women’s independence. That is important Given the time and the fact that other Members wish because women are more likely to spend money on children. to speak, I conclude by echoing the sentiments put That leads me to my second concern: the impact of succinctly in the Centre for Social Justice report, the benefits cap, particularly in relation to children. As “Breakdown Britain”: other hon. Members have mentioned, the housing cap “The more we struggle to end poverty through the provision of will force many families to go into arrears or to move. benefits, the more we entrench it. By focusing on income transfers One of the important dimensions of forcing families to rather than employment, the system makes people dependent on move is the disruption that that will create for children’s benefits. Habituation to dependency destroys individuals and schooling, children’s social networks and child care communities, as well as reducing the overall competitiveness of arrangements. I urge Ministers to take careful note of the UK.” the lessons to be learned from what happens to children I listened to my hon. Friend the Member for Truro and who have been in temporary accommodation, and the Falmouth (Sarah Newton), who made the case brilliantly damage that house moves can do to young children. I that the moral and intellectual high ground is on the hope they will think again about the imposition across coalition side of the House, and I agree with her. the board of that benefits cap. We have heard a range of Opposition speeches. I The third thing that I ask Ministers to give attention welcomed the speech by the right hon. Member for to is payment of the universal credit on a monthly basis. Stirling (Mrs McGuire), who accepted that the I understand why they want to do that—to mimic the Government’s intent is good. I share her concern that way in which many people receive their pay—but we the Bill, in a sense, is enabling, but unlike her I suspect know that one in four low-income families run out of that in a complex welfare system it is necessary to give money before the end of the month. Ministers must tell the Government some flexibility. us what will be put in place to ensure that those families are not left struggling or destitute because of the design Mrs McGuire: On flexibility, does the hon. Gentleman of a benefit payment that does not meet the needs of recognise that the 300-odd regulations defining what is lower-income households. meant by the Bill should be before us today? The fourth aspect on which I would welcome clarification is an issue that has been highlighted to me. In some Steve Baker: I hear the right hon. Lady, as have cases, because payment is made to one member of a Ministers, but as I have so little time, I hope she will couple in a household, benefit could be paid to a forgive me for finishing my contribution. member of a household in relation to a cost borne not I was glad to listen to the right hon. Member for by them, but by another member of the household. Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett). That is the case particularly in relation to housing costs. In an intervention, I agreed with another Member that One member of a couple could receive the universal the banking system is currently the source of great credit, including the housing component; the other injustice, but some of the contributions from the Opposition member of the household might be responsible for that seemed cynically opportunistic. There has previously rental obligation. I would welcome Ministers’ clarification been broad agreement across the House that there must on whether that is also to apply to mortgage interest be change. I urge Members in all parts of the House to assistance. That matters because it is likely to deter get on board a welfare reform that is well intentioned women from forming couple relationships, which Ministers and must be seen through. are keen to promote, if women think they will be put in a position where money which is important for them to keep their home is to be paid to somebody else. 6.20 pm Finally, like other hon. Members, I am distressed that Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): Time is proposals are being introduced in the Bill so early on in tight, so I shall mention a small number of issues which the process of consultation on child support, when we have not yet come up specifically in relation to the are still waiting for the responses from the many experts impact of the universal credit on women and children. in the field. I am concerned that we are moving to a My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North East system that will be almost entirely voluntary, with only (Mr Bain) alluded to the design of the universal credit a residual compulsory system. We all know that when as a breadwinner model benefit and the disincentive voluntary arrangements are put in place—if they are that that creates for second earners and households to put in place—it is women and therefore children who work. That is important because women’s financial are most likely to lose out. Introducing the payment of independence, whether in couples or on their own, is an a fee to access a voluntary child support system is objective that Ministers ought to be seeking, given their highly likely to leave many women and children completely proclaimed wish to use the benefits system to help unprovided for, and I urge Ministers, on that point in everyone stand on their own feet. particular, to think carefully and to think again. 1013 Welfare Reform Bill9 MARCH 2011 Welfare Reform Bill 1014

6.25 pm such as the taper of the universal credit but, in conjunction with the disasters of the Government’s economic and Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): Government Members employment policies, risks increasing both child and are all aware that behind the Bill stands the financial pensioner poverty and inequalities, as well as creating a destiny and future of millions of people. There is a great new underclass. We also know that there will be human aspect to this. Only today, I spoke to my constituent, consequences for the health outcomes of the population Kelly Banks, whose son Ben is 12 years old and has a as a whole. serious heart condition. The allowances that he receives are going to be taken away because he can walk to On unemployment, constituents are coming to my school—never mind the fact that it takes him half an surgeries having either had their jobs threatened or just hour, and by the time that he gets there, he is out of lost their jobs, and it is insulting that we should consider breath. Those hard and difficult decisions must be some of them to be making lifestyle choices. Unemployment taken, and we must make sure that the right balance is is not a lifestyle choice. There is clear evidence that struck to ensure that people who need help receive it, unemployment has profound negative effects on the and that those who do not, do not do so. physical and mental health of not only the people who That is a particular concern, because the figures show are directly affected, but their families. Studies suggest that disability living allowance has gone up by 30% in that there will be an increase in all-cause mortality as a eight years. Housing benefit has gone up by 45% in the result of unemployment, so we need to be very mindful past five years. In the past 13 years, the benefits bill for of that. working-age people has increased from £52 billion to Indeed, if we compare the level of incapacity benefits £74 billion. Those are the numbers in the years of with health data, we find that it is a good indicator of plenty, but we have inherited a catastrophic economic population health. It is reliable, legitimate and not an situation and difficult decisions must be made. The Bill indicator of malingering. There is overwhelming evidence seeks to strike a balance between, on the one hand, the that the driver that brings down worklessness is a high nation’s credit card having been maxed out and, on the level of sustained economic growth, but the current other, the need to ensure that those who need help fitful recovery will not help to get people back into receive it. Most importantly, the universal credit will work. Given the Government’s cuts, nothing will help help people to be sure that work always pays. those people. We need to do more to crack down on fraud and In addition to the Bill’s appalling timing, it lacks an error, which costs £5.2 billion in wasted benefits. We understanding of the importance of appropriate welfare need to ensure that there is a proper cap on the number to work programmes and fails to distinguish between of people coming in to the country. We have 5 million job-ready and long-term claimants. That will again people who could work, but do not do so, yet we all hinder people from getting back into work. know that in the past few years 1.2 million people who My final general point is about the Bill’s direction of were born overseas came and took jobs. We should do travel. When we compare different international systems, more to ensure that those 5 million people who could we find that those with highly decommodifying state work but do not do so receive help, support and support packages—where state support ensures that a encouragement to get into work. We have to do the basic standard of living is maintained—have fewer income right thing by our own countrymen and our neighbours. inequalities, a host of social benefits and no negative It is time to reform. It is time to make work pay, and it is impact on health outcomes, as measured in particular time to bring the benefits bill under control and ensure by infant mortality. that there is fairness for those in need and those who are Welfare systems also have an intergenerational effect. paying taxes. In the US we have seen that evidence, and I see patterns associated with what we have been introducing, and 6.28 pm that effect also occurring here. Children inherit their Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) parents’ poverty, and we cannot allow that, so I recommend (Lab): I shall be brief, as I know that other Members that we look again at the detail of the Bill. still wish to speak. We have heard useful contributions On the Bill’s specific measures, I have already mentioned from Members on both sides of the House. There is concerns about the taper, and I hope that the Government cross-party consensus that the welfare system needs to will commit to an annual review of the rate and introduce be reformed, and there is even common ground on the it at 55% rather than at 65%. In addition, the payment reasons for the reforms, such as making work pay, and of the universal credit needs to be more flexible, as on what we need to do about the problem, such as many of my hon. Friends have said, so that we do not simplifying the benefits system. exacerbate child poverty any further. I want to put on the record the fact that there have I would also welcome some clarity about the earnings been some unhelpful and unhealthy remarks, particularly disregard—the amount a household can earn before statements that equate the reforms on making work pay they lose their entitlement—to ensure that work pays with, if not a kick up the backside for people who are for all. Members have already mentioned the reduction deemed to be workshy—I cannot say that—then its in the child care costs that the working tax credit covers, equivalent. I found that particularly objectionable. I and I hope that we can look again at that. Save the began to make a list of the Members concerned, but I Children estimates that some families could lose more ran out of space. than £1,500. I want to dispel some of the myths perpetrated about Free school meals are another important source of worklessness, which includes unemployment and incapacity, support to low-income families, and I am concerned whether the result of illness or of disability, and to that the Bill does not describe how they will be maintained explain why the Bill not only fails to address key issues under the universal credit. 1015 Welfare Reform Bill9 MARCH 2011 Welfare Reform Bill 1016

[Debbie Abrahams] who need benefits. I therefore welcome the measures in the Bill that will get people out of the benefits trap by The withdrawal of employment support allowance making work pay and removing complexity with the after a year is absolutely disgraceful, and again we introduction of the universal credit. should learn from other countries. We have seen what I press the Government to use the Bill to take strong has happened in the States, and the effect on families action against those who are disregarding the traditional has been absolutely appalling. British value of fair play and have been using the benefits Finally, the conditions, sanctions and penalties associated system as an alternative to work. We have heard a great with the universal credit must be reasonable, take account deal about that during the debate. The House may be of specific barriers to work and ensure that work does pay. interested to know that more than 500 suspected benefit So, I will not be supporting the Bill— cheats have warrants issued for their arrest for failing to turn up in court. Despite the levels of suspected fraud, Mr Speaker: Order. I am extremely grateful to the totalling over £50,000 in some cases, because of a hon. Lady. ridiculous example of human rights law, defying common sense, the Secretary of State’s Department is unable to 6.34 pm name these people to help to track them down and bring them to justice, because it would violate their Priti Patel (Witham) (Con): I congratulate my right right to privacy. I hope that the Secretary of State and hon. Friend the Secretary of State and his entire ministerial Ministers will look to alter this ludicrous position, and team on bringing forward this long overdue legislation, use the Bill as an appropriate vehicle to do something and I pay tribute to him for his passion and conviction about it. I would also like action to be taken to prevent in driving forward his policies to get people off dependency Europe from ordering us to pay benefits to immigrants, and back into work. It is imperative that the welfare and including illegal immigrants, which causes bemusement benefits system be reformed and improved, because to most people in this country. helping people to get back into work, ending the culture This Bill is not about penalising the vulnerable but of dependency on the state and restoring the British establishing a fair system that penalises those who flout work ethic is absolutely the right thing to do. It is always rules, abuse the system and think it right that they easy for Labour Members to criticise from a position of should have a better life than those who go out to work. opposition, but they are the ones who spent 13 years That is why I will support it. failing to get people into work and trapped yet another generation on benefits—and they opened the door to let 2.5 million people from overseas come into Britain and 6.38 pm take British jobs. Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): Having sat I make no apologies for viewing the welfare system as here all afternoon listening to the debate, I see a substantial a safety net. Welfare should be available to help those difference in attitude between the two sides of the who have fallen on hard times and need support in House. We have heard the Secretary of State and many getting through difficulties, illnesses or disabilities. However, speakers talk about the distinction between taxpayers, this has not always been the case. Many Members who on the one hand, and claimants, on the other, as though have spoken in the debate recognise that our constituents they were two completely different groups of people. have gone through many bureaucratic processes, obstacles They are not. At various times in our lives we may be and hurdles in getting the support to which they are either or both. It is unproductive to pit these people entitled. They face a lot of stress and anxiety in going against each other. There are too many myths and through appeals processes and tribunals, and many go exaggerations in this whole debate. through terrible trauma, which is why they end up in The Prime Minister launched this Bill by saying that our surgeries, when we have to intervene. The reforms the welfare system had put one in four people out of outlined in the Bill must therefore ensure that such work. His figures were simply wrong. The figure for mistakes, bureaucracy, regulation and hurdles are reduced, those of working age who are not working, and not and, importantly, that we restore confidence in the students or carers, is only 14%, so why did he say that it system to support those who are in need. was one in four? It was simply to try to build up a head There must be three components in any programme of steam to justify what are in fact cuts in benefits. of measures introduced by Government to get Britain Before the universal credit and all the rest of it comes working, take people away from benefits and get them into force, there will have been two years of benefit cuts. back into employment. First, we need pro-business That is why the Government are able to say that people policies that promote growth, enterprise and wealth will not be worse off. Most of the reductions in benefits creation. Secondly, strong measures need to be in place will already have happened through housing benefit, to get people into work and to complement the measures and by taking people off incapacity benefit and putting in the Bill to reduce benefit dependency. I therefore them on much lower levels of benefit. That is why welcome the introduction of the Work programme, people will not be worse off, and it is quite unsatisfactory. which is long overdue. It is not covered by this Bill, but has to be viewed alongside it as a complementary 6.40 pm measure. The Secretary of State should be congratulated on promoting the role of welfare-to-work providers in Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): We have had a getting people into work, and recognising the opportunities good debate. The Bill contains one good idea and that they will create for the unemployed. That is the best presents us with two serious problems. The good idea is approach to take, and the sooner the Work programme the merger of out-of-work benefits with in-work benefits, is fully functional, the better. Finally, there must be a such as the tax credits that we introduced, which make benefits system that is fair both to taxpayer and to those it much more worthwhile to be in a job. The creation of 1017 Welfare Reform Bill9 MARCH 2011 Welfare Reform Bill 1018 the universal credit has been widely welcomed across about his timetable for that. Self-employed people are the Chamber in this debate, by my right hon. Friend the not in PAYE, so how will their universal credit be Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne), as worked out? We have no idea, and the Bill does not well as by the Chair of the Select Committee on Work tell us. and Pensions, and by the hon. Member for Cardiff Who will be entitled to free prescriptions? Who will Central (Jenny Willott), my hon. Friends the Members be entitled to mortgage interest support? Which working for Sunderland Central (Julie Elliott) and for Stalybridge families will be exempt from the benefit cap? How will and Hyde (Jonathan Reynolds) and my right hon. Friend unearned income such as child maintenance and widow’s the Member for Stirling (Mrs McGuire), among others. benefit be treated? Will disability living allowance continue It is a welcome change, and it is right that we should to be available indefinitely to children? My hon. Friend congratulate the Secretary of State, who has focused the Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mark Tami) made a intently on this matter since the Conservative party powerful speech about that. sacked him as its leader. He went off and set up the Centre for Social Justice, which did the spadework, and Those are enormous gaps in the Bill on crucial details, he now brings the reform to the House. not minor matters. The whole purpose of reform, and the point that has been repeated over and over again in That was the good idea, but unfortunately the bouquets the debate, is that everybody wants a system that ensures end there, because the Bill is a mess. It was rumoured on that people are better off in work. Achieving that goal good authority a few weeks ago that it would be delayed stands or falls by whether those questions are given the another month so that key decisions could be made—and right answers, and at the moment we simply do not now that we have the Bill, we can see why: fundamental know. points are missing. How will child care be supported? That is key to the Bill’s purpose of ensuring that people The lack of answers is a serious problem with this are better off in work. If the Government get this unfinished Bill, but unfortunately it is not the worst decision wrong, the Bill will fail. The Secretary of State problem. The things that we do not know are only the told us that he would take further advice from relevant half of it: the things that we do know turn out to be groups. However, the relevant groups have given him even worse. Why on earth are Ministers launching an plenty of advice already; the trouble is that he has not attack on saving? People who receive £80 or £100 a taken it. The previous Government’s success on child week in tax credits to supplement their earnings will in care meant that the proportion of lone parents in work future receive absolutely nothing at all if they have increased from 45% to 57%. £16,000 in the bank. They could lose perhaps £5,000 a year as a punishment for having £16,000 in savings. If The decision on support for child care is crucial. The they get rid of their savings, they will get their credits Secretary of State has told us that he wants to spread back. What is that about? the same amount of money across many more people. People will therefore have to find not 3% of the cost of The Secretary of State told us earlier that child care child care out of their own pocket—which is common support would be included in the universal credit. That at the moment—but perhaps 30%. That is a tenfold rise. would mean that those people, for the crime of having It is therefore not surprising that lone parent organisations £16,000 in the bank, would lose all their child care are reporting calls from their members saying that they support as well. Why are people on modest earnings to will not be able to afford to carry on working. be punished for saving for a deposit to buy a home, or for the massively increased charges for higher education? At a time when benefits are being merged into a The Secretary of State told us that 100,000 families universal credit, the Government have, bizarrely, decided would lose everything as a result. He said that he saw no to do the opposite with council tax benefit and devolve problem with that, but he should go and talk to his it entirely to local councils. That appears to be the colleagues in the Centre for Social Justice, who have messy outcome of a dispute between the Secretary of made the point that the saving limit for out-of-work State for Work and Pensions and the Secretary of State benefits is for Communities and Local Government, which unfortunately this Secretary of State has lost. Local “an unfair penalty to those who have saved”. authorities will apparently be free to design council tax Instead of easing that limit, as the CSJ proposed, the benefit as they wish, except that it will have to cost Bill extends it to people in work. 10% less than before. Again, that could completely The Secretary of State is wrong to say that the scupper the advantages that the universal credit is supposed welfare system is only for the most vulnerable. My hon. to deliver. Will the Department for Work and Pensions Friend the Member for Erith and Thamesmead (Teresa be able to step in if that happens? We simply do not Pearce) made a telling point about that. It is there for know. everybody when they need it; that is why we have The Secretary of State was not able to tell us earlier national insurance. My right hon. Friend the Member who will receive free school meals in future. That is a for Croydon North (Malcolm Wicks) was right to emphasise crucial piece of information. How can we debate the that responsibility should be expected from the rich as new system without knowing that? well as the poor. My hon. Friend the Member for Swansea West (Geraint Contributory employment and support allowance is Davies) made some telling points about the position of to be time-limited to a year. My hon. Friend the Member self-employed people. We have no idea how the self- for Aberdeen South (Dame Anne Begg) made a telling employed will be handled under the new system. Employers intervention about that, and my hon. Friend the Member will notify the DWP of the salary of people in pay-as- for Oldham East and Saddleworth (Debbie Abrahams) you-earn every month so that their universal credit can also spoke about it. The data suggest that probably less be calculated—that is, if the Government can get the IT than 20% of those in the work-related activity group to work. The Secretary of State knows that I am sceptical returned to work within a year. There is no way that 1019 Welfare Reform Bill9 MARCH 2011 Welfare Reform Bill 1020

[Stephen Timms] We have had a good and lively debate, and I congratulate all hon. Members who participated in it. Time does not someone on oral chemotherapy or with a serious mental permit me to refer to all the points raised, but I will health problem can be expected to return to work in a happily answer questions or letters, and indeed, those year, so that is clearly wrong. who serve on the Public Bill Committee can raise many of the detailed issues in the days and weeks ahead. Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab): Does my Not least among those contributions was a particularly right hon. Friend accept that there is already a problem disappointing start by the right hon. Member for with contribution-based ESA, because people are not Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne), the shadow Secretary passported through to other benefits as somebody on of State. He and the Leader of the Opposition have income-related ESA might be? There are already difficulties both openly backed the principles of the reforms, and for people in the circumstances that he describes. they even put some of the Bill’s measures, such as the Stephen Timms: There certainly are problems. The housing benefit reforms, in their party’s manifesto. Yet Government have made much of marginal deduction what did we hear today? They have done a U-turn. They rates and the impact on work incentives, but it turns out have been captured by the left wing of their party, and from the small print of the Bill that the changes will are reverting to the politics of type. That is a real shame, increase the marginal deduction rates of many more because the shadow Secretary of State was right to say people than will have them decreased. Again, the Secretary that the reforms would benefit from consensus. It is of State’s own think-tank has pointed out the problem therefore unhelpful to hear Opposition Front Benchers with the high taper rate that the Government have spend so much time seeking dividing lines rather than chosen. working with the Government to deliver reforms that will transform this country. The shadow Secretary of My hon. Friends the Members for Makerfield (Yvonne State may not realise it, but there is a great degree of Fovargue) and for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green) consensus about the reforms out there in the country, pointed out that in the tax credits system, benefit in among people who believe that it is time that we sorted respect of children can be paid to their mother. Sometimes, out the mess that has built up around our broken if all the money went to the father, the children would benefits system—a mess that has left millions trapped never see it. The Bill completely ignores that issue. in dependency. A lot has been said about disability living allowance, and my right hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, One of the other disappointments of the debate was Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett) spelled out that so many Opposition Members reverted to type in powerfully the dangers of what is being done. It is being the language that they used. Too many couched this scrapped and replaced with the personal independence debate in the kind of language that I thought we had payment—whatever that might eventually turn out to left behind 20 years ago. Let us be absolutely clear. The be. A lot of disabled people are frightened, and the Bill reforms are designed to help those in our society who to abolish DLA was published before the consultation are struggling. The universal credit will help to lift even finished. We should reform DLA not abolish it, hundreds of thousands of adults and hundreds of and it is wrong for the Bill to proceed in that way. thousands of children out of poverty. We are challenging for the first time in far too long the cycle of deprivation As I said earlier, the Bill presents us with one good that incapacity benefit represents for too many of our idea—the universal credit—and two very big problems. fellow citizens. We are providing more individualised The first is all the things that the Bill does not tell support to help people to move back into the workplace. us—the large gaps of great significance that have been left in it—and the second is all the things that it does tell There are some tough decisions, but for what reason us. It needs radical improvement before it reaches the do hon. Members believe that we must take those statute book, so I commend the amendment to the House. decisions? It might have something to do with the fact that the previous Labour Government left us with the 6.50 pm biggest deficit in our peacetime history and we must pick up the pieces. As the shadow Secretary of State so The Minister of State, Department for Work and aptly reminded us, there was no money left when we Pensions (Chris Grayling): I am sorry to follow such a took office. highly negative speech from the Opposition spokesman on an occasion when the Government are bringing I pay tribute to the right hon. Member for Croydon before the House an historic Bill that lies at the heart of North (Malcolm Wicks) for saying that the best social an historic set of reforms that will reshape the relationship security policy is a job. He is absolutely right, and that between the Government, the citizen and the welfare principle—that simple premise—lies at the heart of our system. The Bill strikes a balance between fairness and reforms and the change that we are seeking to deliver. responsibility, and crucially, it sets out the framework Let me also address the point about the gaps in the for creating a more effective welfare system that is fit for Bill, which was raised many times this afternoon. I the 21st century. Above all, the Bill puts in place many remember being up against the right hon. Member for more of the building blocks that we will need if we are East Ham (Stephen Timms), the shadow Minister, in to tackle the blight of deprivation that affects too many Public Bill Committees when he was in government. of our communities and too many of our citizens. In Some of those Bills had virtually no substance at all to the past 13 years, millions of our citizens were left on them. This is a bit like the poacher turning gamekeeper, the sidelines of society, trapped by a culture of dependency, but it is pretty ripe for him to turn round and say that facing financial barriers to a return to work, and with not all the details have been included. What I would say inadequate support to help them to make a return to to the House is this. As we work through the Bill in the workplace, even if their financial position made it Committee, we will deliver detail to the Opposition at sensible for them to do so. All that must now change. each stage on how we plan to put the measures into 1021 Welfare Reform Bill9 MARCH 2011 Welfare Reform Bill 1022 practice. We will answer questions and be as open as we Before I conclude, let me briefly touch on a couple of possibly can, including in saying where work still needs points raised by hon. Members. The Chair of the Work to be done. The Committee will, I hope, be an exercise and Pensions Committee, the hon. Member for Aberdeen in discussion and debate, and we will inform it to the South (Dame Anne Begg), raised the issue of contributory best of our abilities, because these reforms are vital. ESA. I want to make two points to her. The first is that Making work pay will transform lives, especially for the all those who move off incapacity benefit who fit into poorest, through the universal credit, the single taper and the contributory bracket will be given access to the getting rid of the complexity that has dogged our Work programme regardless of their status. That is system. Members on both sides of the House will know important in ensuring that they receive back-to-work about all the problems that we have had with tax credits support. However, I would also remind her that the over the years and all the constituency cases that have changes to ESA simply bring it into line with JSA. It is come to us. They should realise that this Bill sweeps all that a simple principle that, if someone has financial means away. A simpler system for our constituents and a simpler in their household, the state will not support them. The system for society—this is a better way of doing things. state will be there to provide a safety net for those who Many of the clauses in the Bill are also vital to the do not have the means to support themselves. That is a conditionality changes that will underpin the delivery sensible principle. We have extended the period beyond of the Work programme, helping to deliver much better six months, so that we can deliver support to people back-to-work support for those struggling to get into with health problems, but it is sensible to have an work. We have always been clear that there needs to be a aligned system. I will be happy to talk further with the clear two-way contract between individuals and the hon. Lady in Committee or in the Select Committee. state. We will provide much better back-to-work support and a system that makes work pay, but refusing that Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): Will the Minister give way? support cannot be an option for those with the potential Chris Grayling: No. to work. This Bill will place clear and firm responsibilities on their shoulders, and will bring clear consequences if This is an important set of reforms and I commend they fail to live up to those responsibilities. the Bill to the House. Question put, This Bill is about taking a step in the right direction That the amendment be made. towards a more common-sense welfare system that The House divided: Ayes 244, Noes 317. targets resources more effectively to the vulnerable, but Division No. 219] [6.59 pm also restores credibility in our welfare system. That is why we have tackled the insanity of a system that can AYES pay housing benefit to people in quantities far beyond Abrahams, Debbie Cooper, Rosie what those in work might expect to be able to afford Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Cooper, rh Yvette when finding a house for themselves. That is also why Alexander, Heidi Corbyn, Jeremy we are introducing the benefit cap, so that we remove Ali, Rushanara Crausby, Mr David perverse disincentives to work. Last week I sat with an Austin, Ian Creagh, Mary adviser in a Jobcentre Plus office who said to me, “The Bailey, Mr Adrian Creasy, Stella thing I find strange is this: why am I organising payouts Bain, Mr William Cruddas, Jon to people who get far more money than I do, and I’m Balls, rh Ed Cryer, John Banks, Gordon Cunningham, Alex doing a job?” That is the kind of situation that we have Barron, rh Mr Kevin Cunningham, Mr Jim to address. Begg, Dame Anne Cunningham, Tony That is also why we are getting to grips with reforming Bell, Sir Stuart Curran, Margaret the disability living allowance, so that we can move Benn, rh Hilary Dakin, Nic away from an unsustainable welfare state and a system Benton, Mr Joe Danczuk, Simon where we leave people for long periods, untouched, Berger, Luciana Darling, rh Mr Alistair uncontacted and unchecked. We do not ask the question Blackman-Woods, Roberta David, Mr Wayne “Is this still right for you?” That is what the changes are Blears, rh Hazel Davidson, Mr Ian about, and they are necessary. Blenkinsop, Tom Davies, Geraint Blomfield, Paul De Piero, Gloria Despite the rhetoric, Opposition Members have said Blunkett, rh Mr David Denham, rh Mr John that they believe that it is time for reform, and this is Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Dobbin, Jim why we are pressing ahead with it. We are also sorting Brown, Lyn Dobson, rh Frank out the mess that is child maintenance in this country. Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Docherty, Thomas Finally, we are doing something that I am very proud Brown, Mr Russell Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. of—something that Opposition Members called for, but Bryant, Chris Donohoe, Mr Brian H. which the previous Government did not do: putting an Buck, Ms Karen Dowd, Jim end to jobcentres having to accept adverts from sex Burnham, rh Andy Doyle, Gemma clubs or lap-dancing clubs in a way that exploits the Byrne, rh Mr Liam Dromey, Jack most vulnerable women in our society. In short, the Cairns, David Dugher, Michael Welfare Reform Bill is about putting responsibility, Campbell, Mr Alan Durkan, Mark fairness and common sense back into the heart of the Campbell, Mr Ronnie Eagle, Ms Angela welfare system, while ensuring that we deliver value for Caton, Martin Eagle, Maria money for hard-working taxpayers. Chapman, Mrs Jenny Edwards, Jonathan Clark, Katy Efford, Clive Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): Will Clarke, rh Mr Tom Elliott, Julie the Minister give way? Coaker, Vernon Ellman, Mrs Louise Coffey, Ann Engel, Natascha Chris Grayling: No, I am not going to give way. Connarty, Michael Esterson, Bill 1023 Welfare Reform Bill9 MARCH 2011 Welfare Reform Bill 1024

Evans, Chris Mahmood, Mr Khalid Tami, Mark Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Farrelly, Paul Mahmood, Shabana Thomas, Mr Gareth Wicks, rh Malcolm Field, rh Mr Frank Mann, John Thornberry, Emily Williams, Hywel Fitzpatrick, Jim Marsden, Mr Gordon Timms, rh Stephen Williamson, Chris Flello, Robert McCabe, Steve Trickett, Jon Wilson, Phil Flint, rh Caroline McCarthy, Kerry Turner, Karl Winnick, Mr David Flynn, Paul McClymont, Gregg Twigg, Derek Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Fovargue, Yvonne McDonagh, Siobhain Twigg, Stephen Wood, Mike Francis, Dr Hywel McDonnell, John Umunna, Mr Chuka Woodcock, John Gapes, Mike McFadden, rh Mr Pat Vaz, rh Keith Wright, David Gardiner, Barry McGovern, Jim Vaz, Valerie Wright, Mr Iain Gilmore, Sheila McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Walley, Joan Tellers for the Ayes: Glass, Pat McKechin, Ann Watson, Mr Tom Jonathan Reynolds and Glindon, Mrs Mary McKinnell, Catherine Watts, Mr Dave Mr David Anderson Godsiff, Mr Roger Meacher, rh Mr Michael Goggins, rh Paul Meale, Mr Alan Goodman, Helen Mearns, Ian NOES Greatrex, Tom Michael, rh Alun Adams, Nigel Clark, rh Greg Green, Kate Miliband, rh David Afriyie, Adam Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Greenwood, Lilian Miliband, rh Edward Aldous, Peter Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Griffith, Nia Miller, Andrew Amess, Mr David Coffey, Dr Thérèse Gwynne, Andrew Mitchell, Austin Andrew, Stuart Collins, Damian Hain, rh Mr Peter Moon, Mrs Madeleine Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hamilton, Mr David Morden, Jessica Bacon, Mr Richard Crabb, Stephen Hamilton, Fabian Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Bagshawe, Ms Louise Crockart, Mike Hanson, rh Mr David Morris, Grahame M. Baker, Norman Crouch, Tracey Harman, rh Ms Harriet (Easington) Baker, Steve Davies, David T. C. Harris, Mr Tom Mudie, Mr George Baldry, Tony (Monmouth) Havard, Mr Dai Munn, Meg Baldwin, Harriett Davies, Glyn Healey, rh John Murphy, rh Mr Jim Barclay, Stephen Davies, Philip Hendrick, Mark Murphy, rh Paul Barker, Gregory Davis, rh Mr David Hepburn, Mr Stephen Murray, Ian Baron, Mr John de Bois, Nick Heyes, David Nandy, Lisa Barwell, Gavin Dinenage, Caroline Hillier, Meg Nash, Pamela Bebb, Guto Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hilling, Julie O’Donnell, Fiona Beith, rh Sir Alan Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Hodge, rh Margaret Onwurah, Chi Benyon, Richard Dorries, Nadine Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Osborne, Sandra Beresford, Sir Paul Doyle-Price, Jackie Hoey, Kate Pearce, Teresa Berry, Jake Drax, Richard Hood, Mr Jim Perkins, Toby Bingham, Andrew Duddridge, James Hopkins, Kelvin Phillipson, Bridget Binley, Mr Brian Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Hosie, Stewart Pound, Stephen Birtwistle, Gordon Dunne, Mr Philip Hunt, Tristram Qureshi, Yasmin Blackman, Bob Ellis, Michael Irranca-Davies, Huw Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Blackwood, Nicola Ellison, Jane Jackson, Glenda Reed, Mr Jamie Blunt, Mr Crispin Ellwood, Mr Tobias James, Mrs Siân C. Reeves, Rachel Boles, Nick Elphicke, Charlie Jamieson, Cathy Reynolds, Emma Bone, Mr Peter Eustice, George Jarvis, Dan Riordan, Mrs Linda Bottomley, Sir Peter Evans, Graham Johnson, rh Alan Robertson, Angus Bradley, Karen Evans, Jonathan Johnson, Diana Robertson, John Brady, Mr Graham Evennett, Mr David Jones, Graham Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Brake, Tom Fabricant, Michael Jones, Helen Roy, Mr Frank Bray, Angie Fallon, Michael Jones, Mr Kevan Roy, Lindsay Brazier, Mr Julian Farron, Tim Jones, Susan Elan Ruane, Chris Bridgen, Andrew Featherstone, Lynne Jowell, rh Tessa Ruddock, rh Joan Brooke, Annette Field, Mr Mark Joyce, Eric Seabeck, Alison Browne, Mr Jeremy Foster, rh Mr Don Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Sharma, Mr Virendra Bruce, Fiona Fox,rhDrLiam Keeley, Barbara Sheerman, Mr Barry Buckland, Mr Robert Francois, rh Mr Mark Kendall, Liz Sheridan, Jim Burley, Mr Aidan Freeman, George Khan, rh Sadiq Shuker, Gavin Burns, Conor Freer, Mike Lammy, rh Mr David Singh, Mr Marsha Burrowes, Mr David Fullbrook, Lorraine Lavery, Ian Skinner, Mr Dennis Burstow, Paul Fuller, Richard Lazarowicz, Mark Slaughter, Mr Andy Burt, Lorely Gale, Mr Roger Leslie, Chris Smith, rh Mr Andrew Byles, Dan Garnier, Mr Edward Lewis, Mr Ivan Smith, Angela Cable, rh Vince Garnier, Mark Lloyd, Tony Smith, Nick Cairns, Alun Gauke, Mr David Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Smith, Owen Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Gibb, Mr Nick Long, Naomi Soulsby, Sir Peter Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Gilbert, Stephen Love, Mr Andrew Spellar, rh Mr John Carmichael, Neil Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lucas, Caroline Straw, rh Mr Jack Carswell, Mr Douglas Glen, John Lucas, Ian Stringer, Graham Cash, Mr William Goldsmith, Zac MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Stuart, Ms Gisela Chishti, Rehman Goodwill, Mr Robert Mactaggart, Fiona Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Clappison, Mr James Gove, rh Michael 1025 Welfare Reform Bill9 MARCH 2011 Welfare Reform Bill 1026

Graham, Richard Lumley, Karen Shapps, rh Grant Tyrie, Mr Andrew Grant, Mrs Helen Macleod, Mary Sharma, Alok Uppal, Paul Grayling, rh Chris Main, Mrs Anne Shelbrooke, Alec Vara, Mr Shailesh Green, Damian Maude, rh Mr Francis Shepherd, Mr Richard Vickers, Martin Greening, Justine Maynard, Paul Simmonds, Mark Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Grieve, rh Mr Dominic McCartney, Jason Simpson, Mr Keith Walker, Mr Charles Griffiths, Andrew McCartney, Karl Skidmore, Chris Walker, Mr Robin Gummer, Ben McIntosh, Miss Anne Smith, Henry Wallace, Mr Ben Hague, rh Mr William McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Smith, Julian Ward, Mr David Halfon, Robert McPartland, Stephen Soames, Nicholas Watkinson, Angela Hames, Duncan McVey, Esther Soubry, Anna Weatherley, Mike Hammond, Stephen Menzies, Mark Spencer, Mr Mark Webb, Steve Hancock, Matthew Mercer, Patrick Stanley, rh Sir John Wharton, James Hancock, Mr Mike Metcalfe, Stephen Stephenson, Andrew Wheeler, Heather Hands, Greg Miller, Maria Stevenson, John Whittaker, Craig Harper, Mr Mark Mills, Nigel Stewart, Iain Whittingdale, Mr John Harris, Rebecca Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Stewart, Rory Wiggin, Bill Hart, Simon Moore, rh Michael Streeter, Mr Gary Williams, Mr Mark Harvey, Nick Mordaunt, Penny Stride, Mel Williams, Roger Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Morgan, Nicky Stuart, Mr Graham Williams, Stephen Hayes, Mr John Morris, Anne Marie Stunell, Andrew Williamson, Gavin Heald, Mr Oliver Morris, David Sturdy, Julian Willott, Jenny Heath, Mr David Morris, James Swales, Ian Wilson, Mr Rob Heaton-Harris, Chris Mosley, Stephen Swayne, Mr Desmond Wollaston, Dr Sarah Hemming, John Mowat, David Swinson, Jo Wright, Jeremy Henderson, Gordon Mulholland, Greg Syms, Mr Robert Wright, Simon Hendry, Charles Mundell, rh David Tapsell, Sir Peter Young, rh Sir George Herbert, rh Nick Munt, Tessa Thurso, John Zahawi, Nadhim Hinds, Damian Murray, Sheryll Timpson, Mr Edward Hoban, Mr Mark Murrison, Dr Andrew Tomlinson, Justin Tellers for the Noes: Hollingbery, George Neill, Robert Truss, Elizabeth Mark Hunter and Hollobone, Mr Philip Newmark, Mr Brooks Turner, Mr Andrew Miss Chloe Smith Holloway, Mr Adam Newton, Sarah Hopkins, Kris Nokes, Caroline Question accordingly negatived. Horwood, Martin Norman, Jesse Howell, John Nuttall, Mr David Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 62(2)), Hughes, rh Simon O’Brien, Mr Stephen That the Bill be now read a Second time. Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Offord, Mr Matthew The House divided: Ayes 308, Noes 20. Huppert, Dr Julian Ollerenshaw, Eric Division No. 220] [7.15 pm Hurd, Mr Nick Opperman, Guy Jackson, Mr Stewart Ottaway, Richard AYES James, Margot Parish, Neil Adams, Nigel Brady, Mr Graham Javid, Sajid Patel, Priti Afriyie, Adam Brake, Tom Jenkin, Mr Bernard Penrose, John Aldous, Peter Bray, Angie Johnson, Gareth Perry, Claire Amess, Mr David Brazier, Mr Julian Johnson, Joseph Phillips, Stephen Andrew, Stuart Bridgen, Andrew Jones, Andrew Pickles, rh Mr Eric Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Brooke, Annette Jones, Mr David Pincher, Christopher Bacon, Mr Richard Browne, Mr Jeremy Jones, Mr Marcus Poulter, Dr Daniel Bagshawe, Ms Louise Bruce, Fiona Kawczynski, Daniel Prisk, Mr Mark Baker, Norman Buckland, Mr Robert Kelly, Chris Pritchard, Mark Baker, Steve Burley, Mr Aidan Kirby, Simon Pugh, John Baldry, Tony Burns, Conor Kwarteng, Kwasi Raab, Mr Dominic Baldwin, Harriett Burrowes, Mr David Laing, Mrs Eleanor Randall, rh Mr John Barclay, Stephen Burstow, Paul Lamb, Norman Reckless, Mark Barker, Gregory Burt, Lorely Lancaster, Mark Redwood, rh Mr John Baron, Mr John Byles, Dan Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Rees-Mogg, Jacob Barwell, Gavin Cable, rh Vince Laws, rh Mr David Reevell, Simon Bebb, Guto Cairns, Alun Leadsom, Andrea Reid, Mr Alan Beith, rh Sir Alan Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Lee, Jessica Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Benyon, Richard Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Leech, Mr John Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Beresford, Sir Paul Carmichael, Neil Leigh, Mr Edward Robertson, Mr Laurence Berry, Jake Carswell, Mr Douglas Leslie, Charlotte Rogerson, Dan Bingham, Andrew Chishti, Rehman Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Rosindell, Andrew Binley, Mr Brian Clappison, Mr James Lewis, Brandon Rudd, Amber Birtwistle, Gordon Clark, rh Greg Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Ruffley, Mr David Blackman, Bob Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Lilley, rh Mr Peter Russell, Bob Blackwood, Nicola Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Lloyd, Stephen Rutley, David Blunt, Mr Crispin Coffey, Dr Thérèse Lopresti, Jack Sanders, Mr Adrian Boles, Nick Collins, Damian Lord, Jonathan Sandys, Laura Bone, Mr Peter Cox, Mr Geoffrey Loughton, Tim Scott, Mr Lee Bottomley, Sir Peter Crabb, Stephen Luff, Peter Selous, Andrew Bradley, Karen Crockart, Mike 1027 Welfare Reform Bill9 MARCH 2011 Welfare Reform Bill 1028

Crouch, Tracey Hendry, Charles Mulholland, Greg Smith, Julian Davies, David T. C. Herbert, rh Nick Mundell, rh David Soames, Nicholas (Monmouth) Hinds, Damian Munt, Tessa Soubry, Anna Davies, Glyn Hoban, Mr Mark Murray, Sheryll Spencer, Mr Mark Davies, Philip Hollingbery, George Murrison, Dr Andrew Stanley, rh Sir John Davis, rh Mr David Hollobone, Mr Philip Neill, Robert Stephenson, Andrew de Bois, Nick Holloway, Mr Adam Newmark, Mr Brooks Stevenson, John Dinenage, Caroline Hopkins, Kris Newton, Sarah Stewart, Iain Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Horwood, Martin Nokes, Caroline Streeter, Mr Gary Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Howell, John Norman, Jesse Stride, Mel Dorries, Nadine Hughes, rh Simon Nuttall, Mr David Stuart, Mr Graham Doyle-Price, Jackie Huhne, rh Chris O’Brien, Mr Stephen Stunell, Andrew Drax, Richard Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Offord, Mr Matthew Sturdy, Julian Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Hunter, Mark Ollerenshaw, Eric Swales, Ian Dunne, Mr Philip Huppert, Dr Julian Opperman, Guy Swayne, Mr Desmond Ellis, Michael Hurd, Mr Nick Ottaway, Richard Swinson, Jo Ellison, Jane Jackson, Mr Stewart Parish, Neil Syms, Mr Robert Ellwood, Mr Tobias James, Margot Patel, Priti Tapsell, Sir Peter Elphicke, Charlie Javid, Sajid Penrose, John Thurso, John Eustice, George Jenkin, Mr Bernard Perry, Claire Timpson, Mr Edward Evans, Graham Johnson, Gareth Phillips, Stephen Tomlinson, Justin Evans, Jonathan Johnson, Joseph Pickles, rh Mr Eric Truss, Elizabeth Evennett, Mr David Jones, Andrew Pincher, Christopher Turner, Mr Andrew Fabricant, Michael Jones, Mr David Poulter, Dr Daniel Tyrie, Mr Andrew Fallon, Michael Jones, Mr Marcus Prisk, Mr Mark Uppal, Paul Farron, Tim Kawczynski, Daniel Pritchard, Mark Vickers, Martin Featherstone, Lynne Kelly, Chris Pugh, John Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Field, Mr Mark Kirby, Simon Raab, Mr Dominic Walker, Mr Charles Fox,rhDrLiam Kwarteng, Kwasi Randall, rh Mr John Walker, Mr Robin Francois, rh Mr Mark Laing, Mrs Eleanor Reckless, Mark Wallace, Mr Ben Freeman, George Lamb, Norman Redwood, rh Mr John Watkinson, Angela Freer, Mike Lancaster, Mark Rees-Mogg, Jacob Fullbrook, Lorraine Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Reevell, Simon Weatherley, Mike Fuller, Richard Laws, rh Mr David Reid, Mr Alan Webb, Steve Gale, Mr Roger Leadsom, Andrea Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Wharton, James Garnier, Mr Edward Lee, Jessica Robertson, Mr Laurence Wheeler, Heather Garnier, Mark Leech, Mr John Rogerson, Dan Whittaker, Craig Gauke, Mr David Leigh, Mr Edward Rosindell, Andrew Whittingdale, Mr John Gibb, Mr Nick Leslie, Charlotte Rudd, Amber Wiggin, Bill Gilbert, Stephen Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Ruffley, Mr David Williams, Mr Mark Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lewis, Brandon Russell, Bob Williams, Roger Glen, John Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Rutley, David Williams, Stephen Goldsmith, Zac Lilley, rh Mr Peter Sanders, Mr Adrian Williamson, Gavin Goodwill, Mr Robert Lloyd, Stephen Sandys, Laura Willott, Jenny Gove, rh Michael Lopresti, Jack Scott, Mr Lee Wilson, Mr Rob Graham, Richard Lord, Jonathan Selous, Andrew Wollaston, Dr Sarah Grant, Mrs Helen Loughton, Tim Shapps, rh Grant Wright, Jeremy Grayling, rh Chris Luff, Peter Sharma, Alok Wright, Simon Green, Damian Lumley, Karen Shelbrooke, Alec Young, rh Sir George Greening, Justine Macleod, Mary Simmonds, Mark Zahawi, Nadhim Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Main, Mrs Anne Simpson, Mr Keith Griffiths, Andrew Maynard, Paul Skidmore, Chris Tellers for the Ayes: Gummer, Ben McCartney, Jason Smith, Miss Chloe James Duddridge and Hague, rh Mr William McCartney, Karl Smith, Henry Mr Shailesh Vara Halfon, Robert McIntosh, Miss Anne Hames, Duncan McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick NOES Hammond, rh Mr Philip McPartland, Stephen Hammond, Stephen McVey, Esther Campbell, Mr Ronnie Lucas, Caroline Hancock, Matthew Menzies, Mark Clark, Katy MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Hancock, Mr Mike Mercer, Patrick Connarty, Michael McDonnell, John Hands, Greg Metcalfe, Stephen Corbyn, Jeremy Robertson, Angus Harper, Mr Mark Miller, Maria Cruddas, Jon Sheridan, Jim Harris, Rebecca Mills, Nigel Durkan, Mark Skinner, Mr Dennis Edwards, Jonathan Hart, Simon Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Havard, Mr Dai Harvey, Nick Moore, rh Michael Wood, Mike Hosie, Stewart Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Mordaunt, Penny James, Mrs Siân C. Tellers for the Noes: Hayes, Mr John Morgan, Nicky Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Kelvin Hopkins and Heald, Mr Oliver Morris, Anne Marie Long, Naomi Hywel Williams Heath, Mr David Morris, David Heaton-Harris, Chris Morris, James Hemming, John Mosley, Stephen Question accordingly agreed to. Henderson, Gordon Mowat, David Bill read a Second time. 1029 9 MARCH 2011 Business without Debate 1030

WELFARE REFORM BILL (PROGRAMME) ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing That the draft Waste (England and Wales) Regulations 2011, Order No. 83A(7)), which were laid before this House on 8 February, be approved.— (Norman Lamb.) That the following provisions shall apply to the Welfare Reform Bill: The Speaker’s opinion as to the decision of the Question Committal being challenged, the Division was deferred until Wednesday next (Standing Order No. 41A). 1. The Bill shall be committed to a Public Bill Committee. Proceedings in Public Bill Committee Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6)), 2. Proceedings in the Public Bill Committee shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion on Tuesday 24 May 2011. LICENCES AND LICENSING 3. The Public Bill Committee shall have leave to sit twice on the That the draft Licensing Act 2003 (Royal Wedding Licensing first day on which it meets. Hours) Order 2011, which was laid before this House on 9 February, Consideration and Third Reading be approved.—(Norman Lamb.) 4. Proceedings on consideration shall (so far as not previously Question agreed to. concluded) be brought to a conclusion one hour before the moment of interruption on the day on which those proceedings are commenced. PETITIONS 5. Proceedings on Third Reading shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the moment of interruption Education Maintenance Allowance on that day. 6. Standing Order No. 83B (Programming committees) shall 7.28 pm not apply to proceedings on consideration and Third Reading. Other proceedings Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): A few weeks ago, my hon. Friends the Members for Leicester South (Sir 7. Any other proceedings on the Bill (including any proceedings on consideration of Lords Amendments or on any further messages Peter Soulsby) and for Leicester West (Liz Kendall) and from the Lords) may be programmed.—(Norman Lamb.) I launched— Question agreed to. Mr Speaker: Order. I apologise for interrupting the right hon. Gentleman, but may I appeal to Members who are leaving the Chamber to do so quickly and WELFARE REFORM BILL (MONEY) quietly, so that we can hear him present his petition? Queen’s recommendation signified. Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Keith Vaz: Thank you very much, Mr Speaker, for Order No. 52(1)(a)), your protection, which I appreciate greatly. That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Welfare As I was saying, a few weeks ago, my hon. Friends the Reform Bill, it is expedient to authorise— Members for Leicester South and for Leicester West and I launched a city-wide petition against the Government’s (1) the payment out of money provided by Parliament of— proposals to abolish the education maintenance allowance. (a) sums paid by the Secretary of State by way of universal Over the next few evenings, we will each be presenting credit or personalindependence payment, petitions from various educational institutions. This (b) any other expenditure incurred in consequence of this petition has been collected by those who study at Gateway Act by a Minister of the Crown or the Commissioners college, in Hamilton, in my constituency, where the for Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, and principal is Suzanne Overton-Edwards. (c) any increase attributable to the Act in the sums payable The petition states: under any other Act out of money so provided, and The Petition of residents of Leicester and the surrounding (2) the payment of sums into the Consolidated Fund.—(Norman areas, Lamb.) Declares that the Petitioners oppose the abolition of the Education Question agreed to. Maintenance Allowance; notes that a substantial number of young people are in receipt of the Education Maintenance Allowance in Leicester; and further notes that education can provide a better Business without Debate future for young people. The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government not to abolish the Education Maintenance Allowance. DELEGATED LEGISLATION And the Petitioners remain, etc. Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6)), [P000897] Teaching Assistants SOCIAL SECURITY That the draft Jobseeker’s Allowance (Work Experience) 7.30 pm (Amendment) Regulations 2011, which were laid before this House on 26 January, be approved.—(Norman Lamb.) Tony Cunningham (Workington) (Lab): I would like to present this petition on behalf of Marie Steele and Question agreed to. more than 120 classroom assistants from west Cumbria Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing who are both angry and upset at Cumbria county Order No. 118(6)), council’s single status proposals. 1031 Business without Debate 9 MARCH 2011 1032

[Tony Cunningham] Portsmouth-London Railway Line Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House The petition states: do now adjourn.—(Norman Lamb.) The Petition of residents of Cumbria, and others, Declares that the Petitioners are concerned about the plight of 7.32 pm Teaching Assistants in Cumbria, who feel they are being unfairly treated and whose professionalism is severely under threat. The Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con): I wonder, Teaching Assistants/support staff across the county are currently Mr Speaker, whether on your outreach trips up and fighting a change to their terms and conditions that affects their down the country you travel by rail. If you do, I wonder hours and a considerable loss of pay. Support staff are a vital whether you like to look at your speech en route and to resource for the running of a school. Senior Teaching Assistants travel with your elbows. These are pertinent questions also cover classes when teachers are absent or on planning time. should you intend to come to Portsmouth to give us the The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons benefit of your wisdom, for it seems that South West urges the Secretary of State for Education to look into the plight Trains expects its passengers not only not to work while of Teaching Assistants. travelling in standard class but not to have elbows And your Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray. either. A report commissioned by South West Trains on [P000898] the ergonomics of its class-450 carriages, which are now on half the Portsmouth-London line, found that 59% of people, when their elbows are taken into account, will not fit into the seats. My admittedly anecdotal evidence shows that most people prefer to travel with their elbows most of the time. The only sense that one can make of that bald admission by South West Trains is that it explains why there are no arm rests on those services. Allow me to describe the conditions in the class-450 Desiro carriage. The seats are arranged in a two-plus-three formation, so there are five seats across the width of the train. Each seat is 43 cm wide, but, crucially, there is no space between them. They are hard, they have no arm rests and the seat closest to the window is compromised by the heating channel encroaching into the foot space. Earlier today, I took the liberty of measuring out, on this very Bench, 129 cm from the Gangway and invited three hon. Friends to attempt to squeeze themselves into the space they would have for a 90-minute journey on the London-Portsmouth line. I am sorry to say that if my hon. Friends had been in a class-450 carriage, my hon. Friend the Member for Gosport (Caroline Dinenage) would have been 90% in the aisle. I hardly need to remind the House that this is the usual seat of my hon. Friend the Member for Louth and Horncastle (Sir Peter Tapsell), who, as we all know, is not a man to be crowded. We are accustomed to regular games of sardines as we squeeze ourselves into a Chamber with too few seats; if we cannot do it, what hope do others have? Crucially, we are content with this arrangement; we approved of the decisions of our predecessors to create a Chamber deliberately short of seats, but Portsmouth commuters are not content to play sardines every day. Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con): I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important debate. Is she aware that this issue affects not only Portsmouth commuters but many of my constituents in Liss, Liphook and Petersfield, and that the same trains are used on the Alton line? Sometimes it is an issue not just of comfort but of health and safety—people with back trouble and so on. Penny Mordaunt: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I know that he has done a tremendous amount of work liaising with his constituents, especially those who commute to London, on this issue. He might also be aware that in 2005, when the 550 operated from Waterloo to Basingstoke and Alton, the Rail Passengers Council—the forerunner of Passenger Focus—said that the 450’s seating arrangements were “only reasonable for the route on which they were run”— 1033 Portsmouth-London Railway Line9 MARCH 2011 Portsmouth-London Railway Line 1034 that is, not suitable for a mainline service. Why, then, Returning to the number of seats and the difficulty of were those unsuitable carriages introduced to the getting a seat south of Haslemere at busy times, 25% of Portsmouth-London line on 65% of the services in people cannot find a seat at all. If it were a simple October 2006, before being scaled back again to 49% late matter of the number of seats, there would not be such in 2007? South West Trains claims that it met an urgent problems. We have a situation in which similar numbers need to address overcrowding on the route, based on the of people might end up standing, but in a much narrower 2005-06 passenger figures—a full 12-carriage rake of gangway. Network Rail reports that food sales at its 450s having 140 more seats than the 10-carriage 444 stations are up 5%. I am sure Portsmouth residents are rakes. Those passengers-in-excess-of-capacity figures for doing their bit, stocking up before boarding in the peak times showed that of the 23 services operated with knowledge that the at-seat trolley service will be hauled the 444 carriages, only five showed standing figures of up somewhere around the lavatory, where it will be in almost 100 or more, the worst being 272. good company with the similarly impeded train guard. The Association of Train Operating Companies reported Mr Mike Hancock (Portsmouth South) (LD): I 1.32 billion passenger journeys in 2010, 7% up on 2009 congratulate the hon. Lady on securing the debate. I am and 37% up on 2000—indeed, a number not seen since sure she would agree that South West Trains makes commuters could enjoy the charms of steam power. We easyJet look luxurious. But the real problem, surely, was should not allow this top-line figure to distort the true the way in which the figures were massaged to suit the pattern of travel on individual lines. Even as a response financial interests of South West Trains rather than the to increased demand, the provision of more unusable interests of the paying passengers. Does she agree that seats is hardly adequate. In any case, surely it was a we should be a little more optimistic that the Minister disproportionate response to replace 450s on more than this time will be a bit more successful in persuading 50% of weekday services, when only 10 or so out of South West Trains to do something about that than was 133 weekday services showed high numbers of standing her Labour predecessor, who tried and never got anywhere? passengers. Penny Mordaunt: I thank the hon. Gentleman for We must wonder why, if overcrowding were the only that intervention. I will come to precisely those points motivation for change, services that were not overcrowded and lay them before the House. I make no judgments, or had only, say, 10 standing passengers were replaced but I think the figures will speak for themselves. I also with the 450s. Outside peak times, the service is not at wish to offer the Minister some solutions, because it is all stressed, yet during the week 53% of services are part of the frustration for many commuters that the formed of 450 trains. Although I do not make any answers in terms of volumes of rolling stock are there. allegations—I merely offer the House the information—the Overcrowding is concentrated between Waterloo and carriage leasing company, Angel Trains, has confirmed Woking—the leg of the route that just takes the first that the 444 is as much as 20% more expensive to lease 25 minutes. It should be recognised that trains between than the 450. those stations operate about every four minutes. Those In the face of repeated lobbying from passengers of commuters have options, and the journey is suitable for South West Trains, the company has held firm to the a 450 carriage. Also, it seems that it is acceptable to have line that it must increase capacity. It has succeeded in 97 people standing, as the eight-carriage 450 service—the increasing the number of seats. It has not succeeded in 6.32, I believe, from Haslemere—that showed that figure increasing the number of places to sit. A seat on which did not need to expand. Admittedly, there is not the one cannot sit is a seat in name only. South West Trains option there simply add a single coach, but the point dismisses criticism of the 450 carriages as mere “comfort” remains. concerns and a simple preference for the 444. Well, Further undermining the argument that overcrowding quite. The 444s have two plus two seating, tables, arm must be addressed is the fact that the 140 extra seats rests and seats 45 cm wide, witha4cmspace between cannot actually be used. People either cannot fit into them. What’s not to like? them or choose not to. Portsmouth city council’s March What makes the situation even more frustrating for 2010 survey found that 80% of people boarding south commuters is that South West Trains has 45 carriage of Haslemere are not confident of getting a seat at busy units of 444 carriages. Passenger groups have devised times in a 450 carriage. service diagrams that show that a full 444 service could be operated with just over half that number. There is Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con): The residents of thus no need for passengers to endure the discomfort Gosport hugely appreciate my hon. Friend’s securing of that at present is their lot. I accept that service programmes this Adjournment debate. I wonder whether she understands are a complex business and changes could have implications that South West Trains has an awareness that it is not for other lines, although my research shows that these just commuters from Portsmouth who board those would not be detrimental. trains; it is also commuters who then go across to the The cause of passengers is not helped by the fact that Isle of Wight, and of course those who catch a ferry there are no departmental guidelines on comfort. Comfort over to Gosport, which is one of the largest towns in the does not feature in any rail franchise agreements, or for country without its own railway station. that matter in the recent Reforming Rail Franchising consultation. However, the Department for Transport is Penny Mordaunt: I thank my hon. Friend for her alive to the dangers of inadequate provision being intervention. South West Trains cannot be anything foisted upon passengers. The national rail franchise other than aware of the enormous numbers of people terms state that, excluding additional passenger services, who have been affected. As my hon. Friend the Member “the Franchisee shall maintain the composition of the Train Fleet for Portsmouth South (Mr Hancock) said, the problems during the Franchise Term, unless the Secretary of State otherwise have been going on for many years, and it is a source of agrees, such that there are no changes to the Train Fleet, including great frustration that no solution has yet been found. changes: 1035 Portsmouth-London Railway Line9 MARCH 2011 Portsmouth-London Railway Line 1036

[Penny Mordaunt] risk of doing themselves harm. South West Trains does a good job in many respects. It has the power to put (a) to the classes or types; right what it has got wrong, and I hope that it will do so (b) to the interior configurations; or in short order. (c) which may reduce the journey time capabilities, of any rolling stock vehicles specified in the Train Fleet.” 7.48 pm It is true that franchises might be negotiated with a The Minister of State, Department for Transport change of stock in mind, but patently the Department (Mrs Theresa Villiers): I congratulate my hon. Friend accepts the need to protect passengers. Furthermore, the Member for Portsmouth North (Penny Mordaunt) the coalition programme for government states: on securing this debate. She made her case with great “We will grant longer franchises in order to give operators the clarity and determination—she is a steadfast defender incentive to invest in the improvements passengers want.” of her constituents’ interests. The first question that I Such improvements include better services, better stations, should like to answer concerns the meeting she requested: longer trains and better rolling stock. The problem is I would be happy to meet her to discuss this further. that there is no incentive for train operating companies I fully appreciate how important rail services are for on mainline routes, as they operate in a protected the residents of Portsmouth North—my hon. Friend’s market, and frequently have a monopoly. Contrary to constituents—and I am very much aware of the concerns what some TOCs said in their submissions to the that have been raised about the provision of class 450 rolling consultation, inter-city lines have less competition than stock on the London-Portsmouth main line, which is an suburban lines. Cars and coaches are simply not viable essential artery connecting communities across Hampshire, alternatives, and certainly not if one hopes to work Surrey and south-west London. The provision of reliable while travelling. rail services on the line is enormously important for It is with hope and expectation, therefore, that I seize economic activity and growth along the route. Nearly 7 on the Government’s statement in their response to the million passenger journeys were made to and from franchise consultation: Portsmouth stations in 2009-10. “For intercity services revenue incentives may be sufficient to To answer the questions asked by my hon. Friend, encourage operators to continue to strive to maintain and improve some explanation is required of the contractual history service quality. However, we may ask bidders to commit to quality of the SWT franchise. The current Stagecoach South improvements which are within their control, such as onboard Western Trains franchise was competitively tendered by environment; station environment; customer service and information.” the previous Government in 2006, with the contract First, what is the need for better comfort, if not to commencing in February 2007. All bidders were required improve the onboard environment? The Department to give a commitment to lease both the class 450 and the for Transport should produce guidelines on passenger class 444 rolling stock for the life of the franchise term, comfort for each type of railway line, and there should because the Strategic Rail Authority—a body now become mandatory minimum requirements in future disbanded but which at the time handled franchise rail franchise agreements. It should be made plain to decisions for the Government of the day—gave a statutory franchise holders that failure to meet the guidelines undertaking to the rolling stock company that owned before renewal dates will compromise their suitability to the trains. That arrangement, known as a section 54 continue as operators. undertaking, was part of the funding package agreed to Secondly, it is within the control of South West replace the older slam-door stock, which had operated Trains to improve its service now. It has the carriages; in the south-west since the ’60s. the rail passenger groups have the service diagrams. If New-build class 444s and 450 electric multiple units South West Trains contends that it could restore the were phased in between 2001 and 2007. If the previous 444 services to the London-Portsmouth line only by Government had not required the operator to lease the leasing more of them and putting up prices, I would ask trains, the taxpayer might have been left to foot the why prices did not come down when the cheaper 450s whole bill. Although the section 54 undertaking requires were introduced. I hope that the Minister will prevail on SWT to lease the trains, the operator takes the decisions South West Trains to look at how the distribution of on where to deploy the rolling stock across the different carriages could be realigned so that no service is parts of the franchise network to address capacity disadvantaged by the improvements to the Portsmouth problems as efficiently as possible. line. South West Trains and the Department should As we have heard from my hon. Friend, SWT deploys look at what carriage capacity is available, and open a mixture of class 444s and 450s on services between dialogues with other TOCs if necessary. Portsmouth and London. A 10-car maximum formation Thirdly and finally, I would ask that a meeting be class 444 provides 598 seats, whereas a 12-car maximum convened at which departmental Ministers and officials, formation class 450 provides 738 seats. My hon. Friend Members of Parliament and passengers groups can is rightly and understandably focused on the concerns discuss with South West Trains what must change and of her constituents, but the train operator needs to how quickly it can be done. People such as David balance the competing interests of different communities Habershon, Bruce Oliver and John Holland, who have that use the services provided by the franchise. done so much to represent their fellow commuters, and to help me prepare for this debate, should be able to Mr Mike Hancock: Is the Minister in a position to address their concerns directly to SWT executives across ask her Department to examine the figures that justified the table. Commuters on the London-Portsmouth line the decision by South West Trains to move the rolling pay handsomely for their rail tickets. In return they stock away from Portsmouth to elsewhere? Is she able to should be able to travel to our capital for business or argue that those figures are somewhat arbitrary to say pleasure without being in discomfort or running the the least and totally misleading in most cases? 1037 Portsmouth-London Railway Line9 MARCH 2011 Portsmouth-London Railway Line 1038

Mrs Villiers: I am always happy to respond to the At the heart of my hon. Friend’s speech is the request concerns of colleagues; I am happy to look at the that the Government should introduce new requirements numbers again and ask my officials to do that. As I shall on rolling stock seating into current and future franchises. point out later, however, there are very real capacity I hope that she will understand that to intervene in the problems on the line that would be difficult to address current franchise and require SWT to change its rolling without the use of class 450s. stock would involve renegotiating contractual terms. This always comes at a cost to the taxpayer—a cost that Penny Mordaunt: The key part of my argument, I am afraid we can ill afford when we are striving to which I hope the Minister will understand, is that South address levels of borrowing inherited from the previous West Trains has not addressed overcrowding on the line. Government which are the highest in our peacetime The fact that spaces for people to sit are provided does history. Looking forward to what might be included in not mean that people have space to sit down. The group the next franchise, she will be aware that the decisions of people who suffer overcrowding potentially are the that the Government make on the railways are constrained same group of people who suffer painful and uncomfortable by a number of factors, including infrastructure capacity, seats. They are the same group of people who are affordability and value for money. asking for the new trains. The experiences of my hon. Friend’s constituents reflect some of the very difficult trade-offs that are Mrs Villiers: I very much understand my hon. Friend’s made on our railways every day of the year. I acknowledge, concern, but in reality we—the Government and the of course, that many passengers in Portsmouth would train operator—have to balance the interests of different probably prefer the environment and the seating pattern communities along the line. Even if it were affordable to of class 444 carriages rather than class 450s. However, replace all the 450s with class 444s, and even if they for the practical reasons that I set out in my response were used on all services, it would have a significant about crowding levels further up the line and infrastructure detrimental impact on people further up the line, many limitations, I would be unwise to make promises on the of whom would not be able to get a seat as a result. I pattern of rolling stock use on the Portsmouth line in shall come to that in a moment, however. the future. Changes of the sort that she would like in The most recent route utilisation strategy work makes relation to the seating patterns on trains would have a it clear that the infrastructure is just too full to deliver significant impact on the affordability of the franchise additional trains. That leaves limited options for relieving process. overcrowding, one of which is to use longer trains with As well as these practical considerations, there is more seats, which the operator has chosen to do. The another reason why I am reluctant to make declarations seats on the 450s provide vital capacity for passengers on rolling stock deployment on the south-western franchise closer to London. If SWT were to use class 444s for all in years to come. We are in the process of reforming Portsmouth services, it would worsen peak crowding franchises, and we have recently completed a consultation problems from stations such as Guildford and Woking. on this. A significant element of the approach that we More passengers would have to stand between Woking propose would involve giving railway professionals greater and London than do today, and removing 450s from flexibility to make key operational decisions to enable the Portsmouth to London route might have other them to react more effectively to passenger needs and to knock-on effects, such as displacing the class 450 carriages run their services in a more commercial way. We do not on to the Weymouth line, where journey times are even envisage specifying detailed operational issues such as longer than from Portsmouth to London. the seating layout of rolling stock required on specific We all accept that key crowding between Portsmouth routes, as we do not believe that it makes sense to take to London occurs during peak hours. In response to that sort of decision in Whitehall. We want instead to public concern of the sort that my hon. Friend has put in place the right incentives to ensure that operators raised, SWT has promised to use 444s in the off-peak respond to passengers during the period of their franchises. where it can. The extent to which it can do this, though, We will therefore be looking to include demanding is dependent on complex issues to do with timetabling requirements on service quality. and the availability of trains and train crew. These complexities flow from the intense use we make of our Penny Mordaunt: I would very much like to hear from railways and the need to deploy rolling stock and staff the Minister a commitment on this and an understanding in a way that generates maximum passenger benefits. of the implications of these types of seating, especially That means that some off-peak trains have to be class over long journeys. While I acknowledge that these 450s to ensure that they are in the right place for the trains are being used for longer journeys elsewhere, this peak-time slots. is causing a tremendous amount of physical damage. My hon. Friend set out her view that three-plus-two People are having to employ osteopaths and chiropractors seating is not suitable for services on journeys of the and are really suffering. It is not just a comfort but a 90-or-so minutes that her constituents face in getting to health and safety issue. There are a wide range of London. I can understand her concerns. However, three- options—for example, sticking the different trains together plus-two seating is currently deployed on a number of when they get to Guildford. Often, trains join up when routes with comparable journey times—for example, they get to Guildford, and class 450 carriages can be put journeys between London stations and Margate, and on when they get to Guildford and Woking to allow London Liverpool Street and Ipswich. Issues of health other commuters to use them. If they are in operation and safety are the responsibility of Her Majesty’s railway down in Portsmouth, people will sit on the comfier seats inspectorate and the Office of Rail Regulation. Neither first. Also, there is other rolling stock that the Department of those bodies, I am afraid, has sought to restrict the is trying to do something with—I think that they are use of class 450s on longer-distance journeys. called class 460s and they used to be on the Gatwick 1039 Portsmouth-London Railway Line9 MARCH 2011 Portsmouth-London Railway Line 1040

[Penny Mordaunt] accept that I cannot promise to issue a directive to train operating companies on the detail of the seating plans line. There must be a solution to this out there, and I of their rolling stock. That would not be affordable and urge the Minister to pull the train operating companies it is not the right long-term option for the management together to try to find it. of the railways in this country. I appreciate the opportunity to debate this issue with Mrs Villiers: I am happy to work with my hon. my hon. Friend. As I have said, I am happy to continue Friend and the train operating company to see whether to work with her to see whether a compromise can be there are alternatives that have not been considered found. I look forward to meeting her, and perhaps other which can be brought into play without unfairly colleagues who have attended this debate, to discuss the compromising the interests of passengers on a different matter further. part of the route, and without affecting the affordability Question put and agreed to. of the franchise for taxpayers and fare payers. I encourage her to continue this dialogue with the train operator, 8pm and I am happy to take part in that. I think she will House adjourned. 215WH 9 MARCH 2011 Disability Living Allowance 216WH

extended medical treatment. At the time, mobility allowance Westminster Hall made all the difference. It transformed his life then, and it still does now, given that he lives in a remote rural Wednesday 9 March 2011 area and depends on his own transport. The Government say that DLA needs reform. I agree, but my grounds for reform might be somewhat different [PHILIP DAVIES in the Chair] from theirs. I think that the application process can be a disincentive. Many people have come to me, as their Disability Living Allowance MP, in dismay over the substantial form that must be Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting filled in, and I have been glad to refer such people to the be now adjourned.—(Bill Wiggin.) citizens advice bureau. I pay tribute to the CAB’s work in the benefits field in general, but its expertise in the particular instance of DLA is truly inspirational. The 9.30 am application process could be changed. Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC): I am glad to have I worry about take-up. There are few current statistics secured this timely debate on the reform of the mobility about the level of take-up of DLA and the mobility component of disability living allowance—the debate element of DLA. I did a bit of research with a colleague could scarcely be timelier. I am also grateful to the hon. and found a reference to research in 1998, more than Members who are here, as well as to those who have 10 years ago. The family resources survey estimated expressed their interest but cannot be here. Lastly, I am take-up of the mobility element at between 50% and grateful to the many organisations that have provided 70%. Will the Minister tell us, now or by letter, whether briefings to me and others for this debate. any more recent estimates of the take-up have been made? Disability living allowance is highly valued. Currently, I think that many people do not claim DLA or DLA the lower rate is £18.95 and the higher rate is £49.85. As mobility, even though they would clearly benefit from it. the response to the Government’s consultation states, As I have said, the application process could be DLA, and attendance allowance before it, improved. The number of successful appeals suggests “had a major positive impact on recipients’ lives…DLA recipients that the initial assessment is not what it should be. Also, of working age were unanimous in expressing views that DLA the DLA mobility element is age-restricted. Mobility made a big difference to them.” allowance was initially subject to age restrictions—it Many people depend on DLA. With some reservations, was confined to people between 25 and 45—which were I say that the application and decision making processes gradually expanded over the years. However, as one are clear. I will refer to that later, but at least we know elderly constituent said to me recently, that benefit, where we stand. Research also shows that DLA is which would help older people with mobility problems, unlikely to be subject to fraud: the Department for is deliberately denied them by the age limits, which Work and Pensions estimates fraud at 0.5%, the lowest seems somewhat paradoxical. Will personal independence rate in the entire benefits system. The system seems to payments for mobility awarded before retirement continue be working. As a rural MP in north Wales, I know that to be paid afterwards, as DLA is at present? People are DLA is particularly valuable to people in rural areas, worried, perhaps unnecessarily. who generally face intense problems with mobility. The The Government are proposing changes, as we will money can transform people’s lives. see this afternoon, and introducing PIP. The proposals My concerns about the Government’s proposals relate will be subjected to detailed debates. As I have said, I to the assessment system, the threats to automatic worry about the possibility of 20% cuts and share entitlement, the extension of the waiting period, mobility people’s concerns and perception that there is a problem. payments for people in residential care and assessments regarding the use of aids and adaptations. However, my Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): I overarching concern is about the prospect of cuts of up congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his success in to 20%. If cuts are made, who will pay for them? I securing this debate. He has returned to the issue raised strongly suspect that it is people with a disability who in the press of the possibility of a 20% cut in the will be hit. numbers applying. If we take that figure with his earlier To rehearse the history, the mobility element of DLA figure of less than 1% fraud or abuse of the system, we was introduced in its earliest form, mobility allowance, see the inevitable consequence that even if the Government’s by the Conservative Government in 1973. At the time, reductions target all those who fraudulently abuse the the Government were responding to the consensus between system, more than 19% of those targeted will still be parties and civil society organisations that something genuine claimants, who will suffer unnecessarily. had to be done to address the changing circumstances in which people with disabilities were living. They were Hywel Williams: The hon. Gentleman makes an excellent living, living longer and living in the community rather point. The fundamental question is who will pay if cuts than in residential care, and they were often younger are made. The people squeezed out of the system will be than the disabled people who would have been living in genuine claimants who are disincentivised, or people the community 10, 20 or 30 years earlier. The world was with lower-level needs. changing, and the attendance and mobility allowances I am concerned by the Government’s conflation of were introduced in response. the arguments about promoting the take-up of work I have personal experience of those allowances A and the need for reform. DLA literally helps some close relative of mine, a young person severely injured people get to work, but it is not a work-related benefit; in a car accident, was in just such circumstances in the it exists to assist with the additional costs of living with early 1970s and was living in the community after impairments or long-term health conditions. There is a 217WH Disability Living Allowance9 MARCH 2011 Disability Living Allowance 218WH

[Hywel Williams] Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Some Members present will be aware that the level of those with a coincidence between receiving DLA and experiencing disability in Northern Ireland is greater than it has ever difficulty finding work, but that means only that work been compared with other parts of the United Kingdom. for people with a disability is scarce. DLA is a marker Does the hon. Gentleman share my concern, as an rather than a cause, as the consultation paper seems to elected representative, that, under the proposal to reduce suggest. The work problems that I see confronting 20% of DLA claimants, which will save £2.1 billion, it people with a disability involve ignorance among employers will be those people who need DLA who will lose out? about the value of disabled workers. But perhaps, Mr Davies, I am straying into a subject beyond the strict Hywel Williams: I suppose that that is the overarching bounds of the mobility element. concern behind all this. Eventually, some money might disappear, and the question is who will pay it. That is I am concerned about mobility and people in residential unclear at the moment. Many years ago, I used to care. When I first thought of applying for this debate, repeat endlessly to some of my more starry-eyed social that was the main issue that I wanted to address, as it is work students that, “It is not as simple as that,” which is of concern to a great number of people. I certainly a general rule for politics. welcome the Government’s decision to delay the provision I was a young social worker in the late ’70s. I have and to review it until 2013. That is unsurprising, given promised the Minister that I would not use a lot of the view of the Social Security Advisory Committee, Welsh, but, inevitably, I would like to make one little which said: point. I used to take some of my clients out on social “This measure will substantially reduce the independence of occasions to try to improve the quality of their lives, disabled people who are being cared for in residential accommodation, which goes against the stated aim of the reform of DLA to and the only practical way to do that at that time was by support ‘disabled people to lead independent and active lives’.” minibus. It was a big, yellow minibus, which said on the side, “Cymdeithas Plant Araf eu Meddwl,”which translates I very much welcome the postponement, but it is only a as the society for mentally handicapped children. Needless postponement and people are concerned. to say, the people with whom I worked were neither David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): I congratulate children nor mentally handicapped, which was a loaded the hon. Gentleman on securing this debate. A Library term even then but, for the non-Welsh-speakers present, research paper notes: “araf eu meddwl” is even more loaded—it literally means “slow of mind,” so I was taking people out in a “The DLA mobility component is however not affected if a person is in a care home. In a written answer in 2005, the then big, yellow bus that said that they were slow of mind. I DWP Minister Malcolm Wicks said that this was because ‘care would say, therefore, that social security and social and homes do not cover mobility needs’.” health provision have developed over the past 30 to It is now 2011. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that 40 years towards a more normalised provision, based nothing has changed and that more than 90% still do on autonomy and choice. not provide that? If we depend on institutions to solve people’s problems of mobility, we will soon get institutional answers, Hywel Williams: The hon. Gentleman makes an which is something we should avoid. interesting point on a subject to which I shall refer later. Another concern is that the loss of the mobility component George Hollingbery (Meon Valley) (Con): I congratulate and of the Motability scheme in particular would have the hon. Gentleman on securing the debate. Does he an effect on families with children in residential schools not think that there is room for some standardisation or and their participation in family life. effort by central Government to ensure that those who are in residential settings and need mobility have at The possibility of direct payment of money to claimants least some consistency of provision across the board? to fund their self-assessed mobility needs would be Surely, without that, there would be as much confusion relatively simple compared with the complexity of ensuring as there would be otherwise. that a residential setting provided similar, individually tailored mobility provision. We hardly need to think Hywel Williams: I agree entirely with the hon. Gentleman. about the comparison. Many disability organisations The provision in the public and private sectors of residential have pointed out that current contracts do not provide care needs to be looked at, but should that be done by an element of mobility. If the move is towards tackling reforming DLA in the way proposed? Would that be a duplication, as the Government see it, will we merely blunt instrument? Are there other ways that that can be require the renegotiation of contracts as opposed to done? any other cost-saving change? Will such a renegotiation be at a further cost to the public purse? Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): As someone who lost to the hon. Gentleman in the 2005 general election—I I do not want to dwell on this issue—time is short—but represented, in a poor standard, the Welsh Conservatives I draw the Minister’s attention to the fact that health in the former constituency of Caernarfon—I am particularly and social services in Wales are devolved. Changing the enjoying his passionate reverie of the 1970s. It is beyond benefit system run from London does not necessarily question that he represents his constituency very well mean that local authorities in Wales and the Welsh indeed. We all accept that there is likely to be a degree of Government will follow what happens in England. I cuts ahead. Does he accept the need for this issue to be should perhaps point out the complications of a general reformed? welfare system that is run by two Governments—one concerned with care, the other with benefits—with possibly Hywel Williams: We can take a look at DLA, but that different priorities. I will not go down that route today, is the budget that I would cut almost last, because of its but it is a further complication that the Government targeted nature and its efficiency and because of the need to consider between now and 2013. needs of those who receive it and a host of other 219WH Disability Living Allowance9 MARCH 2011 Disability Living Allowance 220WH reasons. I accept the hon. Gentleman’s general thrust— at any time, but I worry that the proposals will not be everything should be open to review and reform—but I much help. I am glad that the provision in respect of would start elsewhere before addressing the provision people in residential care has been delayed until 2013, under discussion. and I look forward to contributing to the debate between now and then. Jim Shannon: Surely, the real concern for many people In summary, I fear that the changes might limit lives is that 20% will become a target that must be achieved. and increase disability poverty and demand for mental If so, the target, rather than the people affected, will health services. Consequently, they might increase the become the be-all and end-all of the achievement. Surely, demand for primary care services and lead to a loss of the Government must say, “Let’s make improvements, employment. Those fears might all be laid to rest by the but not set a target.” Minister’s response and as the debate progresses over the next months and days—I accept that entirely—but Hywel Williams: The problem with targets, of course, it is important to put such concerns on the record. is that they must be fulfilled, perhaps at the cost of the needs of individual claimants. I would start by looking 9.53 am through the other end of the telescope to see what the Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): As co-chair, with Baroness system of assessment and so on generates, rather than—I Pitkeathley, of the all-party group on carers, I am do not think that this is what the Government are grateful to be given the opportunity to speak in this actually doing—by imposing a rough, across-the-board debate. The reforms will affect carers as much as they 20% cut. will affect those who are being cared for. The hon. I must press on, because other hon. Members are Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams), who introduced anxious to contribute to the debate. My further concerns the debate, said that his main concern is about the centre on the proposed assessment system. The current mobility component of DLA for those in care homes. system assesses via a variety of sources of information—the That is the matter that I wish to discuss. claimant, a carer, a support worker, a GP, a specialist, a In a letter to all parliamentary colleagues, the Minister physiotherapist and so on—and I worry that, by slimming states: down that evidence to one assessment based on specified “We want support for care home residents which takes account activities, the impact of disability on the individual may of their individual needs and safeguards some of the most vulnerable be missed. We have experience of using medical assessments members of our society, whilst also ensuring that the taxpayer is in employment and support allowance applications. not paying twice for this provision. It is vital that we get this Like many other hon. Members, a large amount of reform right, and that is why we are taking the time to do so.” casework in my constituency has been generated by the It is helpful that Ministers have decided to postpone any operation of that system. decision until 2013. I know that the Minister has taken As I said, I have received a number of briefings. An enormous personal care to ensure that the Government interesting and striking one came from the National get this right. I was grateful that, following our last Autistic Society, which suggested that those carrying debate on the issue, the Minister kindly came to Banbury out assessments will possibly fail to recognise the needs and visited Agnes Court, which is a home run by of people with conditions such as autism. I am concerned Leonard Cheshire in my constituency. that reassessments should be fair and accurate, especially I am trying to sort out in my mind how we approach in relation to the suitability of people who have fluctuating the matter, and I have a number of questions that I wish conditions or mental health conditions. We must accept to ask. As I understand it, Ministers are saying that that mental health conditions are particularly difficult local authorities, in the contract that they have with to assess. care homes, should provide sufficient funding for residents Another concern relates to the proposal on delay, to have the opportunity for independent living. It would because increasing the waiting time to six months may be helpful for hon. Members if the Department for cause hardship, although people with terminal illnesses Work and Pensions explained that route. Where in will continue to have no waiting period. primary legislation is the responsibility on local authorities to provide for that element when residents go into Automatic payment is also a concern. I shall not go residential care? That is an important point because if into that now, other than to say that the current system one does not have an understanding of the statutory allows automatic payment in certain self-evident and basis upon which local authorities have that responsibility, extreme conditions—for example, double amputations. apart from anything else, it is difficult to know when I am worried that automatic reassessment of those one could bring judicial review on the basis that they cases might lead to a waste of public money. If we were not providing that which Ministers say that they remove those automatic entitlements, it may increase should provide. Part of the reason for these reforms is the cost of assessment and lead to the same outcome as that Ministers say there is an overlap and duplication of we had under the original system—such people might funding. We need to understand exactly where it is said still receive the higher rate. that such duplication is occurring. On aids and appliances, it has been pointed out to me I also have a slight concern that if one puts a greater that if too much notice is taken of their use—particularly responsibility on local authorities to provide an increase in unfamiliar situations—and that leads to a loss of in the contract fee that they pay to residential care money, it might be a disincentive to people using them. homes, a number of local authorities will say that rather Will that be a disincentive? than sending those who may need care in a residential As I said earlier, I am very happy that attention setting into residential care, they will try to provide should be paid to the needs of disabled people. I am them with care at home. The Minister met one or happy to consider the benefits system for disabled people possibly two residents of Agnes Court in relation to 221WH Disability Living Allowance9 MARCH 2011 Disability Living Allowance 222WH

[Tony Baldry] almost blind and has difficulty getting around. Some are in Agnes Court because they have learning difficulties, whom the local authority funding their place is considering and some are there because they are suffering distressingly withdrawing funding because it is finding it too expensive from degenerative illnesses, such as Parkinson’s disease. and it wants the person to be supported at home or There is not just one group of people, but a large elsewhere. number of individual human beings who have different We need to have an understanding of what Ministers histories. For example, many are married and still wish believe should be the model contract between local to maintain their relationship with their husbands or authorities and care homes, and what the obligations on wives, go shopping, and so on. I also understand, the residential care homes are in relation to this. Let me however, that Ministers are concerned that this can be make it absolutely clear that everyone is doing their best an expensive provision, if what is being provided are in what are often very difficult circumstances. What was individual, tailored mobility vehicles that are not being clear from talking to people at Agnes Court is that they used much each week by individual people. If there is have very little contact with the local authority. The an overlap with other funding that is supposed to go to local authority obviously rightly believes that Leonard care homes from the local authority, that is also a Cheshire Disability runs a fantastic home and provides concern. a fantastic service and that there is no need for a local David Simpson: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? authority to find out what is going on there. What is the model contract? What is it that Ministers believe, first, Tony Baldry: I am conscious that lots of other hon. that local authorities should be funding and, secondly, Members, including, I am sure, many from Northern that they should be requiring of care homes? Ireland, wish to take part in the debate. The Minister will have met people in Agnes Court I suspect that all of us want to engage constructively who have used the mobility component of DLA to with constituents who have concerns about this matter, purchase a wheelchair of superior quality to that which but we want to do so positively and be conscious of the they could have obtained through the NHS—one person legitimate concerns of Ministers that the system is not in particular has certainly done so. I am talking about a working. The Minister has stated: very bright man who has been a long-term resident of “We will not remove the mobility of disabled people but we Agnes Court. He is almost blind, but his intellect is will remove the overlaps and gaps inherent in the current system.” razor sharp, as I know from the letters and e-mails he I want to understand where the Minister sees the overlaps. has sent to me over many years. Indeed, at one general Where does she see the gaps? Please can we have a lay election, he organised a hustings for parliamentary person’s guide that we, as colleagues, can take when we candidates, so that we could discuss disability issues. He talk to constituents in this situation, so that they understand has used his mobility competent to buy a wheelchair, the issues and that we understand the examination which seems a sensible thing to do given his circumstances. question that we have been set. I know that there is an Would that be possible if the funding were coming exam, but I am not confident yet that I fully understand through a local authority contract to the residential the examination question. care home? I appreciate that the decision has been delayed until Nicky Morgan (Loughborough) (Con): I entirely agree 2013, but Ministers will at some point have to be clear, with my hon. Friend about how helpful the Minister and send a clear signal about post-2013, for the following has been in responding to constituents’ concerns on the reason. The Minister will have met, when she was at matter—her letters have been very much appreciated. Agnes Court, large numbers of people who have entered Does he agree that some of the points that are unclear into leases and other contractual arrangements for mobility relate not only to the overlap between what the local vehicles. There need to be transitional arrangements so authority should fund and what is covered by DLA, but that if there is a change in the regime and the rules in to the activities that local authorities will pay for? 2013, people do not suddenly find themselves with a Constituents have told me that local authorities fund period of time to pay a contract without the wherewithal travel only to a doctor’s appointment or to day care, to do so. If Ministers are coming to the view that at and not to enable disabled people to participate in some point they will change the rules, it would probably everyday activities. Such activities are important to be helpful to give a clear signal of their intentions so them, but might not be important to the care home or that people have a clear understanding of that and the local authority. make dispositions accordingly. Tony Baldry: My hon. Friend makes an incredibly 10.3 am good point. I—and I suspect many hon. Members—would Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab): I should like to like and welcome a route map from the DWP.I sometimes refer to one case in particular: that of Mr and Mrs Owen feel that policy relating to that Department is a bit of a and their deaf and blind son Jordan. They attended my secret garden. I am always a bit reticent about entering surgery some months ago and explained the situation in into the garden, because I usually use the wrong words—the which they find themselves now and what they fear mobility component of disability living allowance for might happen in the future. Their son Jordan is a big those in residential care, is in itself quite a mouthful. lad—17 years of age. He currently attends the Trinity What is it—I entirely agree with my hon. Friend the Fields special school in Ystrad Mynach and is in receipt Member for Loughborough (Nicky Morgan)—that we, of disability living allowance and the mobility component or those in residential care settings, can expect to be as well. The family put that to good use and provide provided? After all, let us remember that what we have mobility for him and the family. In the near future, here are a very wide range of human beings who are when he becomes an adult, he will leave the special individuals and constituents. Stephen Argyll, the person school and go to a residential home. However, it is likely to whom I just referred, is intellectually very bright, but that that residential home will not be anywhere near 223WH Disability Living Allowance9 MARCH 2011 Disability Living Allowance 224WH where he lives in Tir-y-Berth, Hengoed. It is likely to be The fundamental question that went through my in Monmouth, or possibly in England. There is a real mind when the announcement was made was what it concern among the family that, because of the changes said about our attitude towards the decency with which that may come about, he will no longer be in receipt of we allow people to lead their lives. What does it say the mobility component of DLA. about how we are prepared to protect the most vulnerable Jordan is a member of an ordinary working-class in our community at this difficult time, with the significant family. He has tremendous support from his parents, financial challenges inherited by the Government? That and from the charity Sense, which has done excellent was made real for me by the visits of constituents; work with the family. Naturally, however, when he does families who care for their sons, daughters, mothers, go to a residential home, the family will want to visit fathers, cousins and uncles, and who have to create that him and take him out from the home and give him the sense of independence every day for their loved ones in best experience of life possible for that young man. The care homes. family is concerned that, if the mobility component is In particular, it is my pleasure to recognise the taken away, they will not be able to visit him as frequently campaigning work of Mr and Mrs Ogaza from my as they would like or to take him out from the residential constituency—Mrs Ogaza is here today—on behalf of home. In fact, they might have to leave to one side the not only their son Paul, but other families. I thank the opportunity of going to a residential home, even though Minister for taking the time to meet me not once but that would probably be best for him, but ensure that he twice—the second time to listen to Mrs Ogaza—and for stays at home, so that they can give him proper love, her visit to a care home in Shefford, near my constituency. care and support. That would obviously not be the best That is emblematic of how much she is trying to reach for him, and probably not the best for the family as a out and listen, and to understand this complex area. whole. Indeed, that complexity is at the root of the Government’s I should like to make it clear that I am not against attempts to deal with the question of decency. There is welfare reform. In fact, I am strongly in favour of nothing decent about the system that is in place if it welfare reform. What I find difficult to understand, provides a patchwork of services for recipients in different however, is the rationale of making someone like Jordan parts of the country. There is nothing decent about a so fearful for his future. There could well be a cut. Of system that does not ask our care home providers tough course, I can understand the financial saving to the questions to ensure that they are actually providing the state, but that is not what welfare reform should be services that we would like. about. That is why I am particularly concerned about clause 83 of the Welfare Reform Bill. It is important Guy Opperman: Is not the biggest test for the future when we talk about welfare reform that such things are to have a road map where things are clearly signposted made fair and streamlined, but particular care must be and understood? Whatever the reason for the system taken to ensure that people such as Jordan do not lose being in the state that it is in, comprehension and out. For example, I was concerned that, when the Prime utilisation would then be much clearer. Minister was asked about changes to the mobility component at Prime Minister’s Question Time, he said: Richard Fuller: My hon. Friend is absolutely correct. “our intention is very clear: there should be a similar approach for He echoes a point that was made by my hon. Friends people who are in hospital and for people who are in residential the Members for Banbury (Tony Baldry) and for care homes.”—[Official Report, 12 January 2011; Vol. 521, c. 282.] Loughborough (Nicky Morgan). This is an opportunity I simply point out that the needs of people in hospital to provide a clear map of the requirements and also to are not the same as those of people in care homes. That identify, not in a naming and shaming way but in a is a fundamental point. We need to move away from the positive way, what local authorities and care homes mechanistic, bureaucratic approach and to recognise should provide and where evidence shows that they are that people in residential care homes have particular falling short. needs, and the Prime Minister, to start with, should I believe that this is the second debate on disability recognise that. living allowance that the hon. Member for Arfon has I hope that we have a respite. The Government have secured. Is that correct? said that they will delay implementation for at least 12 months. I hope, however, that in the interim the Hywel Williams: No. Government will look at cases, such as that of Mr and Mrs Owen and their son Jordan, and recognise that welfare reform must be tailored to the needs of individuals, Richard Fuller: I am sorry. It is the second debate that so that young men like Jordan do not lose out. I have attended on the subject. It shows how important it is to hon. Members that we get the correct answers. This debate is a bit more heartening in that it is not 10.8 am focused so much on cuts. The Minister needs to lay this to rest: the changes are not being made to reduce Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con): It is a great pleasure funding but to ensure that the funding that is available to speak in this debate, and I congratulate the hon. is directed in a way that gives clarity to families and the Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams) on securing it. I recipients of care in various care homes. It is extremely wish to declare an interest—I am chairman of two important that that message is made clear. [Interruption.] domiciliary care service companies. They are not in If hon. Members disagree, we need to continue to bring receipt of disability living allowance, but they deal with that to the Minister’s attention. I fundamentally do not adjacent issues. I welcome the debate. In particular, I believe that that is the intent of the policy, and I look welcome the Minister to her place. forward to listening to those who think differently. 225WH Disability Living Allowance9 MARCH 2011 Disability Living Allowance 226WH

[Richard Fuller] The second rationale that I wish to discuss—I will not take too much of hon. Members’ time—is No. 7 on I should like to thank the 27 charities—the number is the charities’ list: growing—that have provided information to other hon. “Local authorities’ contracts with care homes should cover Members and to me in their reports, “Don’t Limit personal mobility needs”. Mobility”, and, more recently, “DLA mobility: sorting The charities’ response focuses very much on ability to the facts from the fiction”. A number of them are in an pay. Local authorities do not have the money; care expert position because they also operate care homes. I home providers are not in a position to pay. That comes would be interested to hear from the Minister how again to my earlier point: this issue should not be driven many of them have come forward with examples from by the need to make cost reductions, but by the need to their own experience of the uniformity of provision ensure that there is clarity about what we expect to across their network of homes. Has she received such provide on both a local authority and care home basis. representations or evidence from them about whether If insufficient money is being provided, that should be they experience differences in the various local authority the answer. If too much money is being provided and areas in which they operate? That would be a useful there is a better way of getting value for money, that body of evidence, and it behoves the charities to provide should be the answer. That is what we are driving for in such information to the Minister, so that we can have a achieving an answer. clearer picture. My final point is that this is not just about mobility. In their reports, the charities provide some information The issue is independence. A personal expenditure allowance about the rationales for the changes. I admit that several of £22 a week is not sufficient for the broad range of an have been presented over the months, but I should like individual’s requirements. That measure was not set by to pick up on two that are particularly pertinent and this Government—they inherited it. It is a little insulting germane. I thought that the first one they listed was to tell someone, particularly someone who is vulnerable very interesting: or people who have spent much of their own lives “The responsibility for mobility/transport costs should be met looking after a child or a mother who is in need and by the care home provider”. thereby saving the Government so much money, that we will leave them with just £22 a week to cover the wide What struck me in the evidence that the charities provided range of their personal expenditure. was that they saw a lack of clarity in what has been provided. They stated: I ask the Minister, as she looks at the mobility component, to bear in mind the broader picture of “Related legislation and guidance make no specific reference providing decency overall for people in care. She has to mobility… While guidance places a responsibility…it contains nothing about how this is paid for… This guidance is not contract done an excellent job in reaching out and listening to terms… the guidance does not provide a legal requirement.” people, and I hope that she will listen to the contributions to the debate. That points to the comments that were made earlier by my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury and others about the need for clarity and a road map. 10.17 am Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): Like the hon. Member Mr Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con): I would echo my for Bedford (Richard Fuller), I was present for the hon. Friend’s comments about the Minister. She has previous debate, which was specifically about the mobility gone far out of her way to reach out to colleagues component for those in residential care homes. There is across the House, and I pay credit to her for that. a danger in this wider debate today that we will focus too much on that issue. My concerns about that issue My hon. Friend the Member for Banbury spoke are no less than they were before, but I do not want to about contracts and specifics being written down. The concentrate on it today, as other hon. Members have Winchester and District Mencap Society has made the adequately done so. point to me many times that the mobility component is The Government paper that heralded these changes, not necessarily used just for appointments at doctors or “Welfare reform: Disability Living Allowance for the care homes, or for visits to friends or the hairdresser. 21st century”, discusses focusing on those with the Sometimes, for their own physical and mental health, greatest need. We also know that the target is to achieve people use it to get away from those with whom they a 20% cut. I was struck by the comments of the hon. live. Is not the key point that if we reform the system Member for Banbury (Tony Baldry) about the different and move to personal independence payments, we will people he knows at Agnes Court and the range of put power in the hands of disabled people who are conditions that they have. Would any MP be able to say individuals in their own right? They do not want the who of such a group of constituents is in greatest need, Government or the House to prescribe how they do or where we could make a 20% cut? If we are not everything, or how and where they spend their money. prepared to do that or to envisage others doing that, we should not support the Government in this measure Richard Fuller: My hon. Friend makes a good point. and proposal. However, there are also requirements on the part of the Several issues arise. The first is assessment and, of Government to provide some guidance and clarity. If course, reassessment in the future, which will come with we can get clear evidence of the original intent—the it. The fact that particular conditions will not be screened changes are required because of differences in provision— out from assessment and reassessment—everyone will people could move forward more confidently, empowered have to go through the process—raises fundamental to exercise their rights. We are going through a process concerns for those who are currently on benefits and that we have not yet completed. their carers. We need to remember carers as well. They 227WH Disability Living Allowance9 MARCH 2011 Disability Living Allowance 228WH all think that they are facing a grand national, where living allowance before pension age continue to receive everyone needs to try to get over and on to the benefit. it when they reach pension age. Will that continue to be As we have heard, that will cause great problems for the case with the personal independence payment? citizens advice bureaux and the many others to whom people are turning for advice on what is likely to happen Fiona O’Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab): Does the hon. and the implications for them. Gentleman agree that we also need clarity on how the If the Government will not allow any specific conditions changes will impact on children, especially those with to be screened automatically from having to go through sudden impact conditions such as acute myeloid leukaemia? the assessment test now, or in the future, we need more Will they have to wait six months, by which time their clarity about what forms of evidence will be considered treatment will be well and truly finished? particularly telling in the context of the assessment test. What evidence from experts in neuromuscular conditions Mark Durkan: I thank the hon. Lady for making that and so on will tell in that setting, or will the interview point. I introduced my comments about pensioners by setting count more? On the cost of administering the referring to age-related considerations, and I was coming assessment and reassessment process, many of us know to children, including children in residential care, residential that some people will pass every time, because of their schools, and on holidays. What periods will qualify? circumstances. Should they have to go through the Again, there is not enough in the Government’s papers ordeal of assessment and reassessment every time, and and subsequent answers about those issues. The hon. should the Government carry the cost of that? Lady has rightly pointed to circumstances in which children may suddenly be affected by a condition. Will On moving to a six-month qualifying period, the they have to wait for six months? Will families who hon. Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams) referred to receive a disability premium receive the universal credit cancer patients. We must question whether it is enough when their child is in residential care? We do not know to tell people that if their illness is terminal, they will what is happening. automatically qualify. Many cancer patients do not We must remember that families must cope with the want to think of themselves or present themselves as concerns, needs and often the emotional upset not only terminal cases, and we might send out a dangerous of the child who is affected by a condition, but of the message. If the Government are determined to remove other children. Families must not be mired in new the mobility component as was and to introduce a difficulties and complexities by the change. We must six-month qualifying period for the personal independence ensure that people of all ages are supported, not least payment, perhaps there should be a distinct allowance children and families. The Government must provide for those who have been diagnosed with cancer and more clarification, and I hope that the debate will have been referred for chemotherapy or radiotherapy. present the opportunity for the Minister to do so. Perhaps there should be a cancer care and support allowance that takes care of such circumstances, instead of cancer patients finding themselves caught up in the Philip Davies (in the Chair): Two more colleagues are pursuit of personal independence payments, particularly seeking to catch my eye, and I intend to call the Front-Bench as the system will become congested when the changes speakers at 10.40 am at the latest, so co-operation are introduced. would be much appreciated. How will people with variable conditions be measured in the context of assessment and reassessment? Will 10.25 am they be unlucky if they are interviewed on a good day, Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): I congratulate or lucky to be seen and reported on on a bad day? The the hon. Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams) on securing Government must tell us more about that. this important and timely debate, and I thank the There will be an impact on other entitlements. For Minister for her attendance. The Government’s proposals example, currently the mobility allowance is a passport on welfare reform are undeniably substantial, but reform to the blue badge, road tax exemption and disability is undeniably due. The best elements of the wider premium. What thought has been given to the implications proposals have the potential to create a simpler, fairer of the move to personal independence payments? Will and more efficient system than the current array of people who lose out in the change also lose out on those credits, benefits and allowances that developed under other benefits and entitlements? Will the conditionality the previous Government. However, the proposals link between the new benefit and the old benefit remain? that caused the greatest consternation among my If so, have the Government factored into their impact constituents—that consternation is clear from today’s assessment the effect on other entitlements? attendance by colleagues from both sides of the House—are the proposed changes to the mobility component of As the hon. Member for Arfon has said, there will be disability living allowance. The issue presents a particularly an impact on carers. We need to know, for example, difficult balancing act to reform a complex welfare whether eligibility for carers allowance will come from system, but never to jeopardise the ability of disabled both levels of the personal independence payment daily people to live full, independent and active lives. We have living component, or only from one level. Those who been right today to determine what is a modern, efficient are entitled to carers allowance will see the circumstances and, most importantly, fair system to meet disabled not only of the person they care for being jeopardised people’s mobility needs. by the change, but their own. Entitlement to carers I have actively expressed my opposition to the proposed allowance may be affected, and we must consider that. withdrawal of the mobility component of disability We have not heard enough from the Government living allowance for those living in residential care homes, about some age-related issues. For example, pensioners and I am grateful for the time that the Minister has who received the mobility component of the disabled spent listening and talking to me about that on the 229WH Disability Living Allowance9 MARCH 2011 Disability Living Allowance 230WH

[Duncan Hames] I suggest it is worth examining a tiered approach in which a paper-based assessment would be sufficient for Floor of the House and separately. Without the mobility those with the most obvious need, thus eliminating the component, many of the most vulnerable people in our requirement for a detailed and stressful face-to-face society would be unable to meet the cost of living assessment. I support the emphasis on personalisation independent and fulfilling lives, and to engage in the in many of the Government’s statements about the social activities that most of us take for granted. As I reforms. That could prove helpful in addressing the politely suggested to the Prime Minister, parallels drawn alleged duplication that has been mentioned with regard between those in hospitals and residential care homes to funding for care home residents. are crude and unfair. It is clear that the Minister in her I have suggested to the Minister previously, and investigation of the matter has reached much wider, and continue to believe, that if those funds currently allocated those of us who have had most reservations should by local authorities to care homes for meeting the recognise her efforts to obtain a clearer handle on the assessed needs of residents were transferred directly to matter than those who considered it previously. residents as part of their personal independence payment, I associate myself with the comments of the hon. that would ensure that the freedom, choice and Member for Banbury (Tony Baldry), who demonstrated independence currently offered by the mobility component a clear understanding of some of the issues concerning of DLA is maintained. It would also ensure that money care home funding. In the light of the responses to the given to care homes for use by their residents is used by proposals that the Government first tabled, and the those residents, and not lost in administration or meeting representations from me and many others in this House, other costs. That is not what has been proposed to date, I warmly welcome the Minister’s decision to postpone but it is in tune with the thrust of many Government the change until the nature of mobility funding for changes, and I hope that it will be considered. The those in care homes is fully understood. It is absolutely current confusion over where responsibility lies for the essential that we do not rush into any of the changes, funding of mobility needs for those in residential care and it is good news that the Minister is listening and homes points to the need for reform. However, the accepts that we must take a longer, clearer look at the fundamental reference point for that reform must be a issue. guarantee that people who live with disabilities should Given the Minister’s intention to give due consideration be supported to live active and fulfilling lives. to the mobility needs of those in residential care homes I conclude by reiterating my welcome to the Minister’s before moving forward with any changes, I ask her to decision to look again at the support given to those in consider two issues in particular as part of the development local authority funded care homes, and by repeating my of wider changes to DLA: first, the process of medical hope that she will investigate the suggestions I have assessment for personal independence payments; and made today, which are among several constructive secondly, how the support given to those in residential suggestions raised during the debate. care homes can be most effectively personalised. The Government have stated their intention medically 10.33 am to assess all those currently in receipt of DLA. Assessment can bring advantages and ensure that help goes to those Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con): I, too, congratulate who need it most. Potentially, it can make it easier for the hon. Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams) on securing some disabled people to claim and allow the provision this debate. I feel nervous about contributing to the of more individualised support. However, there are also discussion that he has led, as he understands the issue pitfalls and possible side effects to assessment such as and the field extremely well. I associate myself with the the cost, both of contracting out the assessments and of comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury financing the appeals that are bound to follow in the (Tony Baldry): although I feel unqualified to comment wake of any large-scale assessment programme. There on the issue, as an MP I respect the fact that people is also the pain that face-to-face assessment may inflict come to my surgeries with concerns, and it is important on those suffering from autism and similar disabilities, to raise those concerns with the Minister. and the danger that an assessment of the mobility needs I also associate myself with the comments made of those with spectrum disorders, mental health issues about the active way in which the Minister has responded and fluctuating conditions such as Parkinson’s, may be to correspondence, especially in relation to constituency prone to error unless conducted by specialists. We have matters that I have raised. An effort has been made to seen that problem in the conduct of work capability communicate, and that communication has been detailed assessments for employment and support allowance. and worth while, and it has been appreciated by constituents. Nicky Morgan: Does the hon. Gentleman agree—he The fact that we are looking at delaying changes to the may be about to cover this point—that there is a question mobility component until 2013 is welcome. It is a difficult mark over the need for repeated assessments of certain and complex area, and that complexity must be looked conditions? I speak as the vice-chair of the all-party at carefully before we implement any changes. group on eye health and visual impairment, and I think Before I look at the mobility component of DLA, I particularly of those who are blind. Some conditions, would like to make a point about the work capability such as the loss of a limb, will never change and more assessment process. I am MP for a constituency where costs may be incurred in reassessment than are necessary. about 42% of the population are first-language Welsh speakers. Time and again, people who come to my Duncan Hames: The hon. Lady makes an exceptionally surgeries are expected to attend a work capability assessment good point. Certainly, it is written in my notes that in which they must explain their position and say whether there is the potential for certain conditions, such as they are capable of working. Often, they have to do that blindness, to benefit from an automatic entitlement. in English, even though the Welsh Language Act 1993 231WH Disability Living Allowance9 MARCH 2011 Disability Living Allowance 232WH requires them to be able to do it in Welsh. When Welsh Assembly Government on this issue has not yet someone is in a stressful situation such as that, it is received a response. An excellent point was made about unacceptable that the Department is unable to provide the fact that we are dealing with a complex situation in a bilingual service. I have received assurances that the which the Welsh Assembly Government are responsible Department is working within the demands of the for care and social care, but the benefit system is with Welsh Language Act, but time and again the situation Westminster. I am slightly concerned that as yet, the on the ground in north Wales does not correspond with question about what discussions have been held between those assurances. I would like the Minister to respond the Welsh Assembly Government and the coalition to that point. Government has not received a response. I am sure that When I received a letter from the Minister, I almost the Minister will write to me or confirm that there have felt as if she had been in my constituency surgery. The been discussions. We are trying to ensure that the system arguments about the complexity of the mobility care works, and it is imperative that the social care element component in care homes show that the current situation and the benefit system interact positively. Part of that is not coherent. From talking to people in care homes, it interaction in a Welsh context involves good, positive becomes clear that each care home deals with the mobility discussion between the Government in Westminster component in a different way. I have been quite proactive and the Government in Cardiff Bay. on this issue because I represent a constituency with a high average age—I think I am right to say that the 10.39 am constituency of Aberconwy has the highest average age of any constituency in Wales—and as a result, there are Margaret Curran (Glasgow East) (Lab): I am pleased a lot of care homes. My office has spoken to 17 care to be back in this Chamber debating this issue; I was at homes to discuss how they deal with the mobility the earlier debate. I congratulate the hon. Member for component and whether it is funded by the local authority. Arfon (Hywel Williams) on initiating this debate. He From those 17 care homes, we have had 17 different gave a passionate and eloquent description of the challenges answers, so the chaos surrounding the issue is clear. It is in this field, and his knowledge will be of great assistance difficult to move forward with a policy unless we to this Parliament as we proceed. Of course, his timing acknowledge that the duplication mentioned by the is perfect, as the Second Reading of the Welfare Reform Department is not constant or ongoing, and that Bill takes place today.This subject includes many challenges the situation is very different from one case to another. and issues, and I am grateful to him for giving us the The Government, and the Minister in particular, are opportunity to focus on particular issues in this debate. trying extremely hard to address the issue in a fair and I shall say a few introductory words about welfare coherent manner, but to do that we need a long consultation reform generally, but I want to focus on the mobility process, which I will certainly feed into. component of disability living allowance, particularly On a more personal level, it is crucial that consultations in relation to residential care, because the issue is of take place in a responsible manner. It was distressing to imminent importance. It presents a great challenge and see the parents of a 57-year-old individual who has is of great concern to many people. I still require much been in a care home all her adult life come into my more clarity from the Government about the position, surgery. Both those parents are over 80 years old, and but I shall return to that, because a few hares have been are distressed because they believe that the mobility set running this morning that we may need to catch. component will be lost. They feel distressed by that, and The hon. Member for Arfon made very significant it is important to point out to constituents that we are and reflective comments in relation to welfare reform. I genuinely undergoing a consultation process. It is important am on record as having said during the last debate and to ensure that that process is understood and communicated. in many of my exchanges with the Minister that I believe passionately in welfare reform. I have a background Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): The hon. in this field and have been dealing with it for many Gentleman makes an excellent point as part of an years. Welfare reform will always be required, and we excellent speech. These are real anxieties and concerns should never be frightened of it. Sometimes it is difficult. because people see that the mobility component is I absolutely accept that it presents challenges, because it scheduled to be removed. I welcome the fact that the affects so many people of great vulnerability. None the consultation period has been extended, but that compounds less, I have substantial criticisms of the way in which the the period of great uncertainty for people. There is a bit reform has been conducted. of a dilemma. As the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) said, many questions are still outstanding about the reform Guto Bebb: There is, but I am sure the right hon. and the impact that it will have. In particular, many Gentleman would agree that a Government who consult disabled organisations will tell you that they are very and listen are a Government who will succeed. The worried about the premise of the reform. Rather than Department is genuine about the consultation and about being cuts-based reform, it should be evidence-based listening, and that must be communicated to individuals. reform. We should work with disability organisations We do not want to create undue distress, but I do not and try to take them through this. Fundamentally, it think that the Government have communicated well on should be based on the social model of disability, but this issue, and we must take responsibility for that. the Chancellor of the Exchequer and other people are I understand that I must conclude my comments espousing a medical model of disability, so there are before 10.40 am, so I will raise a couple of important tensions in what the Government are telling us. points. As I have said, the Minister has been good in We are told that the driving factor behind welfare responding to almost all my questions, but one question reform is simplicity. That has been mentioned today. about the discussions the Department has held with the However, if you go along with the Welfare Reform Bill 233WH Disability Living Allowance9 MARCH 2011 Disability Living Allowance 234WH

[Margaret Curran] I have not yet heard the case for the reform. This morning, some hon. Members have said that we need to as it stands, you could end up with greater complexity. I introduce the cut in relation to residential care homes have heard this directly from disability organisations, because all of a sudden care homes are very confused by and the hon. Member for Foyle also pointed it out. You the funding and all of a sudden local authorities are could have children under 16 on DLA. You will have very confused by the funding. I have not had any adults between 16 and 64 on PIP—the personal representations in all my time as a Member of the independence payment. Then you will have attendance Scottish Parliament or in my time in this Parliament allowance. Elderly people are now saying that they have about that confusion. It seems to me that yet another to get attendance allowance even when they reach that argument is being put forward for why we are doing threshold age. There is some confusion from the this. Government about that, but perhaps the Minister will I have asked the Minister a parliamentary question clarify it. about how many people have advocated the change to There are big issues about how we are doing reform, the Government. How many people have gone to the and the Government must think carefully before they Government and said, “This is a real problem and it charge around telling everyone else that they must just needs to be sorted out”? I have not had an answer yet. follow suit on the reform. They cannot criticise those of Perhaps the Minister could give me an answer later us who are in favour of reform if we say, “This is not today. how it’s done.” Many people are saying that the reform Many interesting points have been made in the debate. has been rushed and not thought through and that We have been given individual examples by the hon. some of the implications, if the Government go ahead, Member for Caerphilly (Mr David). We heard from the will be very far-reaching for the most vulnerable members hon. Member for the secret garden—I do not know of our society. The Government must take stock and whether I can call him that. I am referring to the hon. demonstrate that they are listening to people, but a Member for Banbury (Tony Baldry), who also talked demonstration that they are listening to people has not about the secret garden of policy in the previous debate. been evidenced yet. He has raised many significant questions that have still to be answered. Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con): Would the hon. Perhaps the most substantial point came from the Lady maintain the current level of spending of £12.3 billion hon. Member for Arfon, who said the mobility component on DLA under her own model of reform? She says that of DLA for people in residential care is about normalisation. she is keen to see reform, but would she keep the level of I have not heard any Government Member be able to spending at £12.3 billion? Obviously, it will increase, challenge that. You do not give that payment to an but can she tell us about any proposals for what she institution; you give it to the person so that the person would do? can make their own personal choices. With the greatest respect, ironing out the so-called overlap or trying to Margaret Curran: I can tell the hon. Gentleman what ensure that you give it to a care home does not address I would not do—I would not start from the premise of a that fundamental point. That is the issue—the payment 20% cut. I would work with disability organisations goes to the person. under a partnership approach. We do need to manage Let me establish a few of the facts. Some 80,000 costs. Disabled people and their organisations agree people are affected by the cut, and it is a cut. It represents with you that we need to manage costs. We do need to a saving of £160 million. I fundamentally believe that it look at how the budget is increasing. I would be the first is driven by the need for that saving. It will affect not to acknowledge that, but we need to do it in a completely only people living in residential care homes, but young different way from how it is being done at the moment. people in residential schools. I accept the comments You should not rush at it and you should not say that made about the Minister. They were very flattering and your only motive is cuts. I take the point made earlier. I positive, and I am sure that they are all true. I also intended to say that I would be polite in this debate. I welcome the review. However, I am not as optimistic as may not have managed that so far and I may not some people are that somehow we are going to see a manage it later, either. change. Therefore I would like to ask the Minister a few questions about the review. Who is involved in the Jim Shannon: The hon. Lady is always polite. review? What is being considered? Do you have on the agenda the option of completely cancelling the cut? Margaret Curran: Thank you very much. Of course we shall be polite to one another in the House, but we Philip Davies (in the Chair): Order. May I gently must remind ourselves of the scale of the anger in the remind the hon. Lady to refer to people in the third country about what is happening, particularly on the person, rather than dragging me into the debate? mobility component of DLA in relation to residential homes. People’s concerns are deeply felt. People are Margaret Curran: I apologise, Mr Davies. I will not deeply worried, but there is also anger about how it is drag you into the debate. I am referring to the Minister. being done. We have all received representations from I would be grateful if she could outline the parameters the voluntary sector, the charitable sector and local of the review. Is there any possibility that the cut could authorities that are confused about what is happening. be cancelled as a result of the review? Will she clarify The debate has also involved Members of Parliament. I that? had thought that it was cross-party—that it went across As other hon. Members have said, a document has many parties, including the Government parties. Perhaps today been published by 40 organisations in the sector, not, but we shall come back to that. which represent a vast swathe of opinion in this field. 235WH Disability Living Allowance9 MARCH 2011 Disability Living Allowance 236WH

Those very credible organisations have told us that the the welfare system fit for the 21st century. DLA reform Government’s arguments have shifted eight times. I is long overdue, which is why we are proposing in the think that they will need to issue another document, Welfare Reform Bill today that the personal independence because I think that there has been another shift in the payment should replace DLA, creating a more transparent argument. I say that because the “road map” has been benefit that is better targeted and more affordable in the presented to us today. Somehow that is the solution to long term. the cut; everything will be solved by a road map. As long as people know exactly where the funding is coming Fiona O’Donnell: On transparency, the BBC carried a from, all will be solved. I think that that is fundamentally statement from the Government this morning saying wrong and I hope that we are not seeing yet another that they had no intention of extending the entitlement attempt to explain an unjustifiable cut. The cut is wrong. onset from three months to six months. Can the Minister It should be off the agenda now. We have the opportunity confirm that that is the case? in the Welfare Reform Bill to ensure that that is the case. Labour will be arguing very strongly that we reject the Maria Miller: In terms of the entitlement. cut. We need to ensure that we continue to give people in residential homes the personal independence that Fiona O’Donnell: Extending entitlement onset from they have now. That should be maintained. That is what three months to six months. the Government should be doing. Maria Miller: The hon. Lady will know that it is 10.49 am absolutely our intention to make changes so that the new PIP assessment supports people with long-term The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work conditions. That is the—[Interruption.] I cannot possibly and Pensions (Maria Miller): It is a great pleasure to comment on something reported in the media that I do serve under your chairmanship for the first time, Mr Davies. not have sight of. It is probably easier for me to get back I am grateful to the hon. Member for Arfon (Hywel to the hon. Lady to clarify the point than to debate it Williams) for calling the debate, which has given Members today. from across the House the opportunity to talk about their personal experiences on this issue. As part of the wider DLA reform, we have looked at how the mobility component affects people in care I am sure that everyone here shares a deep concern to homes. As many hon. Members have indicated, we ensure that we get provisions right for disabled people discovered that, much like DLA, the mobility element is in all our communities, and the coalition Government characterised by a lot of uncertainty and red tape, and are certainly absolutely committed to doing so. That is my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Guto why we have taken the Equality Act 2010 through to Bebb) picked up on that extremely well. Like him, I have Royal Assent, put in place the right to control for talked to care homes, and every one I have been to has thousands of people, driven a personalisation agenda had a different experience of trying to tackle what is and promoted a new project on access to elected office one of the most fundamental issues for disabled people— to help more disabled people to be involved in debates how to get about. That is driving me to make sure such as this, because, all too often, they are not. that we not only reform DLA correctly, but ensure that I welcome the support across the House for the need people living in our care homes get the support that for welfare reform. I think the hon. Member for Glasgow they need. East (Margaret Curran) supports it—at least, the leader When it comes to determining care homes’ duties and of her party does—and we obviously need to debate contractual obligations, the interpretation is very wide. some of the details today. I certainly welcome the It is not that people thought it was all rosy in the garden support of the hon. Members for Arfon and for Caerphilly in the past, as the hon. Member for Glasgow East (Mr David). perhaps implied, because there is long-term concern When it comes to the Welfare Reform Bill, what is about the lack of clarity over these obligations. There certain is that the Government have inherited a mess has been almost a sticking-plaster, pragmatic approach after 13 years of Labour, and nowhere is that more to trying to ensure that disabled people, who are some evident than with DLA, which is almost a case study in of the most vulnerable people in our community, get how not to run a benefit. DLA lacks any objective test; the support that they need. The situation has not been it has no in-built system to check people’s continued helped by an array of very different legal duties and needs for support; and there is a real chance that some contractual responsibilities, which mean that service people will continue to claim it when they are no longer providers and residents are unclear in practice about entitled to. That is no way to manage a really important where responsibility lies. Indeed, the hon. Lady might means of supporting disabled people, and it is certainly pick that up if she talks to even more of her constituents. no way to manage the spending of £12 billion of taxpayers’ My hon. Friend the Member for Banbury picked up money—an amount that was never envisaged when on this issue in his contribution. I do not pretend to be DLA was first outlined. able to give him answers to all his questions, but part of It is good to hear the hon. Lady accept that we need the problem is that responsibility for provision of mobility to manage costs, and I welcome that acceptance. The is spread across at least three separate pieces of legislation previous Government allowed spending on DLA to in a not entirely consistent manner. That is one of the spiral unchecked. This Government firmly support the issues that I will be looking at. We have the Health and principle behind DLA of providing a non-means-tested Social Care Act 2008 (Regulated Activities) Regulations benefit to support independent living, but the simple 2010. We also have the 2008 Act itself, which deals with truth is that we cannot let DLA go on as it has, the registration of care homes. It includes a clear obligation especially at a time when we are committed to making on care homes to promote independence, and mobility 237WH Disability Living Allowance9 MARCH 2011 Disability Living Allowance 238WH

[Maria Miller] 30% increase in the number of people claiming DLA over the past eight years. I hope that that reassures hon. is part of that. There is also an important role for the Members that we are not talking about the sort of Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992, swingeing cuts that have been painted by some less which makes it clear that local authorities should not responsible Members of this place, but just trying to take account of DLA when assessing people’s needs. All ensure that the rapid growth that we have seen is brought those things mean that care homes and local authorities under some level of control. have a complex set of measures to deal with. The The hon. Gentleman also raised important issues previous Government could have taken time to provide about the application process. Let me reassure him that more joined-up thinking on the issue, and we have put this will not involve a medical test, but an objective test our efforts and energies into dealing with the issue. built on the social model of understanding the barriers that people face when they have disabilities that they Margaret Curran: Will the Minister give way? need to cope with. He raised a number of other issues, including, in particular, eligibility after 65, and I assure Maria Miller: If the hon. Lady will forgive me, I am him that the personal independence payment will continue trying to reply to as many points as I can. Perhaps she past retirement, as long as an individual continues to be can raise any points she has separately with me. entitled to it. If I have not picked up any of the issues I have been told of cases where DLA payments have that the hon. Gentleman has raised, I am sure that my not been passed on to the person who should have been officials will ensure that I write to him. in receipt of them. As hon. Members will know, that is a The hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) raised a serious offence. Some people have told me that they are number of extremely important issues, some of which I having to pay charges for basic services in care homes, have already covered. He also mentioned children, and which should, by rights, be freely available. I am sorry if I draw his attention to the report that my Department is all of that is anecdotal, but it paints a worryingly doing with the Department for Education. It looks at consistent picture of arrangements that are no way to how my Department will assess children in future in ensure the best support for the most vulnerable people conjunction with the DFE, rather than putting children in our society, no way to ensure accountability and no through multiple assessments, as at present. way to ensure the best value for disabled people or taxpayers. In short, the situation is really unsatisfactory. My hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy made an important contribution. I agree with his characterisation As much as the hon. Lady may not agree, it is my job of the situation as chaotic. I will make sure that I get as Minister with responsibility for disabled people to back to him about our communications with the Welsh stand up and speak about these things and to ensure Assembly and about the importance of making the that we get some action. I want a far clearer approach in work capability assessment available in a way that is the future, so that disabled people everywhere in the consistent with legislation on the Welsh language. country can know what they can reasonably expect. That was one of the issues that was usefully raised in the My hon. Friend the Member for Chippenham (Duncan “Don’t limit mobility”report. Only with a clearer approach Hames) made a number of important and constructive will we achieve the outcome that all hon. Members suggestions, and I thank him for that. I will perhaps present want. talk to him separately. In the remaining couple of minutes, let me move on In an important intervention, my hon. Friend the to some of the detailed points that I hope to cover. The Member for Winchester (Mr Brine) reiterated the hon. Member for Arfon raised a number of issues, but importance of treating people as individuals. I am sure he focused particularly on budgets. It might be useful that he, too, will welcome the commitment to for hon. Members to know that when we talk about the personalisation given by the Minister with responsibility DLA budget, we are talking about ensuring that we for these issues in the Department of Health— keep control of the growth in it. The expenditure we are talking about for the future will be the same level of Philip Davies (in the Chair): Order. We must move on expenditure as we had last year for DLA, after a to the next debate. 239WH 9 MARCH 2011 East London Tech City 240WH

East London Tech City increase the number of pioneering high-tech companies. The programme will include the creation of two network innovation centres, the first of which will be in Shoreditch. 11 am The Prime Minister went on, in his speech, to discuss Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) other companies and businesses that would contribute. (Lab): I am very grateful for the opportunity to address We understood that McKinsey and Company will share the House on the question of the east end tech city. As expertise, and that British Telecom has agreed to bring some hon. Members may be aware, in November, nearly forward the roll-out of superfast broadband. I particularly six months ago, the Prime Minister made a speech that want to know what is happening about that, because it attracted the attention of all the east end. We are is the key to the sort of businesses that we are considering. anxious to know what progress has been made with the I understand also that Qualcomm, one of the world’s plans that he outlined. leading wireless technology companies, will provide In his November speech the Prime Minister said: expert advice. “We’re not just going to back the big businesses of today, we’re The other issue that the Prime Minister touched on going to back the big businesses of tomorrow.” was finance. He said that Vodafone had committed to Who could argue with that? He went on to say, thrillingly bringing its Vodafone Ventures investment fund to the for us in the east end: capital. It would be interesting to know whether it has invested any money since then. He said that “Our ambition is to bring together the creativity and energy of Shoreditch and the incredible possibilities of the Olympic Park to “Silicon Valley Bank, a West Coast institution…will become a help make East London one of the world’s great technology fully fledged bank in the UK”. centres.” Has it become a fully fledged bank yet? He also said That idea of the east end as Silicon valley was very that engaging. The Prime Minister said: “Barclays will create a new facility in East London to provide “Something is stirring in East London” specialist banking services to high growth technology”. and pointed out that Again, we should like to know more. “three years ago, there were just fifteen technology start-ups The Prime Minister went on to talk about some of around Old Street and Shoreditch” the US companies that are to set up research and but that as he spoke there were more than 100. Certainly development space. He mentioned Intel setting up a anyone who knows and lives in Hackney can see how new research lab. I am not sure whether it has been set the Shoreditch and Old street areas—despite the challenging up yet. Google was to create an innovation hub. I am economic circumstances—continue to blossom and to not sure whether that has happened. The speech also show any amount of creative energy. As the Prime mentioned that Minister pointed out, one reason for those two areas “Facebook has agreed to create a permanent home in East becoming a hub is to do with cultural and artistic life, London for their successful Developer Garage programme”. quite outside Government planning. That is what happened On all those issues I would be interested to hear what in San Francisco, and it is happening in parts of the east those American businesses are doing, and what has end. been done about business and finance. The Prime Minister made some specific points, however, I want to talk a little also about the possible involvement and it is on those points that I want to press further. He of the local authorities in the exciting new developments said that the Olympic Park Legacy Company had agreed I have outlined. I could say, on behalf of Hackney to create an accelerator space in the Olympic park, council, that it very much welcomes the Prime Minister’s “providing office space for companies that grow out of East initiative—and not only Hackney council, but boroughs London and beyond.” across London. However, I think that local government I should like to know what progress has been made in leaders—what we might call the big society—want to creating the accelerator space. He also said that Imperial know when the Government will align their investment Innovations, the venture capital arm of Imperial college and support with Hackney’s local regeneration activities. London, was to advise on making the accelerator space It is one thing to bring in American and British businesses, make more money available, and roll out the broadband; “attractive to spinout companies from academia and beyond.” but it would make sense to align that with what the local What sort of advice has Imperial Innovations given? authority is doing. How many meetings have happened, and what progress A number of small and medium-sized businesses has been made? The Prime Minister spoke also about have flourished in the creative digital centre in Shoreditch, University college London and Loughborough university Dalston and Hackney Wick, on the back of investment agreeing initiatives proposed by the previous Mayor, Ken Livingstone. “to work with the Olympic Legacy Company to build a bridge We believe that the western half of the Olympic park in between academia and enterprise in the Olympic Park.” Hackney Wick holds significant opportunity. Will the I assume that that will happen after the games, but I Government work with Hackney borough council and should still be interested in any information that the the Olympic Park Legacy Company to ensure that our Minister may have. global ambitions for growth are integrated with our One of the companies that the Prime Minister mentioned innovative local economy, and the people of Hackney? was Cisco. Last month he and John Chambers, the We are also concerned about investment in skills and Cisco chairman and chief executive officer, announced training. It is fine to have coffee bars and cultural the details of the British innovation gateway, a five-year activity, and even to roll out broadband. However, we effort by Cisco to drive economic growth through high-tech do not want a Silicon valley-type development in the innovation. The British innovation gateway aims to east end that will be like a cuckoo in the nest, to which 241WH East London Tech City9 MARCH 2011 East London Tech City 242WH

[Ms Diane Abbott] I particularly appreciate the way in which the hon. Lady quoted so liberally from the Prime Minister’s local people have no access, and where they cannot find speech on 4 November. I was at that event, as was the opportunities. If local people are to be involved, skills Mayor and many investors and entrepreneurs. She and training are important. How do the Government summarised an excellent speech, in which the Prime see their further and higher education policies supporting Minister made clear how committed the Government what the Prime Minister announced in November, and are to the area. At the heart of the area—it is part of the Hackney’s successful network for delivering training to east London tech city initiative—is Shoreditch, which is local people of all abilities? increasingly becoming the location of choice for budding The Government are meeting and encouraging big entrepreneurs. global companies such as Google and Cisco, but we are The hon. Lady has given us these figures, but I concerned that they are not connecting them to the remind the House that in July 2008, the area was home local economy and the local authority, which would to some 15 high-tech companies; our latest estimate is mean their investment could make a real difference. We that there are now 200, and there have been some are anxious that the Government’s activities, which we conspicuous examples of successful companies being welcome in principle, should be aligned with what the developed and sold on. Last.fm was sold to CBS for local authority does. I have lived in Hackney for 23 years $280 million; others successes are TweetDeck and Songkick; and I have seen every sort of Government regeneration and Dopplr was sold to Nokia for $22 million. Some programme going, all the way back to Michael Heseltine. valuable companies are being created there, and the Sometimes I have said about regeneration programmes, coalition Government are committed to helping the under Labour and other Governments, that if you area continue with its impressive growth rate. We believe stood on a street corner giving people bags of money, in it as a cluster. ordinary people might have benefited more. I have seen all that is good and all that is bad about Government-led The Government cannot create clusters out of nothing, regeneration. but once clusters have emerged organically, it is absolutely the responsibility of Government to push them forward I think that the Prime Minister is probably right that whenever they can and to remove barriers. That is what sometimes regeneration is a bottom-up activity. That is the Prime Minister’s speech of 4 November was about; what happened in Silicon valley—and in parts of Hackney. it followed an announcement about the area. I assure It is extraordinary: Hoxton, which was a very run-down the hon. Lady that progress is continuing. I shall give area when I first became an MP, is now the Soho of the some examples. east. If I go through it at night there are clubs and entertainment, culture and art galleries. Some of that John Chambers, Cisco chairman and chief executive was helped by local government and Government officer, was in London recently, and I met him with the regeneration, but much was bottom-up. One of the Prime Minister. He unveiled details of the British innovation things that helped the east end to regenerate was the gateway scheme on 31 January. That new $500 million amount of cheap warehouse space, which meant that scheme will see Cisco pledging a long-term investment artists such as the new British artists—Tracey Emin, of money, technology and manpower to help boost and so on—found it cheap and practical at the beginning entrepreneurship in the United Kingdom, particularly of their careers to go and work there. in east London tech city. Having been present at the discussions between John Chambers and the Prime I am very open. Having seen how the east end has Minister that took place at No. 10, I can tell the hon. developed over 20 years, and how Government and Lady that we got into the practicalities of encouraging local government intervention work, and sometimes do John Chambers to consider investment in the east end not, I appreciate and understand the bottom-up approach of London. Indeed, that is where a significant part of that the Government are taking. However, we must his investment will go. have a clear outline and infrastructure. I would like to know what is happening about broadband. I would also like to know what is happening in relation to the businesses Ms Abbott: I was not at the Cisco meeting, but when I and financial-sector people that the Prime Minister read the press reports of what was said it seemed quite mentioned in his speech last November. unspecific. When will the programme of investment start? The Minister says that he urged the Cisco chairman I am anxious to find out whether the Government are to invest in the east end, but did he commit himself to willing to align what they are doing with the successes doing that? If so, what proportion of that money will be that we have had, both at the London level under the invested in the east end? Mayor and also at the borough level. I wait with interest to hear what the Minister has to say. Mr Willetts: We do not know exactly what the time scale will be or exactly what the allocation will be, but 11.10 am the decision has been made by Cisco’s CEO to commit $500 million. That key decision was taken by the CEO The Minister for Universities and Science (Mr David and discussed with the Prime Minister, and work is now Willetts): I congratulate the hon. Member for Hackney under way in Cisco to allocate the funding. North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) on securing this debate, on what is indeed an important subject. It is Cisco is not the only example. Google has announced about our high-tech strategy for the nation as a whole, that it will open its innovation space in 2011 in Old and for one of the crucial places where we are delivering street. That will be a creative space for its researchers to it—the hon. Lady’s constituency, especially in and around come together with developers and academics to create Shoreditch. the next generation of applications and services. 243WH East London Tech City9 MARCH 2011 East London Tech City 244WH

Ms Abbott: Does the Minister have an opening date going to a workshop on access to finance at Shoreditch for the Google innovation space? How many staff members on 4 April, and I shall continue my close contact with will there be, and what sort of investment will be made that community. in that space? As for local initiatives, I understand that BT will deliver on its commitment and that it will upgrade its Mr Willetts: We do not yet have that information. I services. It confirms that it will upgrade both telephone admire the hon. Lady’s impatience on behalf of her exchanges in the area, in Clerkenwell and Shoreditch, to constituents. She wants detail about the pounds, shilling its superfast broadband service. and pence and the number jobs involved. I should explain that, in short order, we have delivered strategic The hon. Lady rightly asked about the involvement commitments from big businesses. Decisions to commit of the local community. I shall focus on that aspect in to the area have been taken at the highest level. my closing remarks. The hon. Lady can play a crucial role. I know that she is committed to her community. It Of course, the challenge—United Kingdom Trade would be great if we could improve links between the and Investment is working hard on this—is to convert entrepreneurs and the business start-ups at tech city the big decisions into practical jobs on the ground. and, for example, local schools. There is a really good Having seen the commitments made by Cisco and Google, atmosphere around the TechHub at what is called Silicon including when Google’s Eric Schmidt was in London roundabout. It should be possible to involve Hackney recently, I have no doubt that the follow-up will happen schools more, so that teenagers could meet the entrepreneurs and that we will get there. Commitment has been made in tech city, see what software programmers do and at the highest level. some of the apps that they are developing. They could even come forward with ideas on apps for their mobiles Ms Abbott: Will the Minister give way? and watch the software developers trying to rise to the challenge. Mr Willetts: Yes, especially as she asks so plaintively. That would be fantastic. It would be for the good of the young people in the hon. Lady’s schools and a fresh Ms Abbott: I am touched by the Minister’s confidence challenge for the entrepreneurs. If she wants to work in these declarations by the big moguls. However, we in with me on this, I am confident that we could make the east end know that talk is cheap. The sooner that those connections. Looking nationally, one of the things Ministers can come to us with dates, facts and figures, that I worry about is that, despite large numbers of the happier we will be. students doing IT and computer science, we do not do very well on getting them into the right kinds of jobs Mr Willetts: I understand exactly the point that is that use their skills. If we can improve the links to being made by the hon. Lady. There will be various entrepreneurial business leaders at an early stage, we opportunities, perhaps in a follow-up debate in a few could do better. I would be up for working with her on months’ time, when I will be happy to report progress to such a project, and hope that she would be willing to the House, and to the hon. Lady. consider it. On behalf of the Government, I am also in close touch with the entrepreneurs and business community Ms Abbott: The Minister makes an interesting point. in east London tech city. I shall report to the House In Hackney, children are very much interested in IT, but some of the activities that we have been involved in—and they do not make the move from an interest in IT to the there are more coming. I was at the launch in the east IT professions. I would welcome the challenge of trying end of the Google-Boston Consulting Group report, to link young people with what is happening in tech city. “The Connected Kingdom”, on 28 October. Moreover, there is the broader concern that young I met a group of entrepreneurs and business people at peopleinareassuchasmineoftenhaverelativelynarrow London’s TechHub on 20 December. I visited the new horizons. Anything that opens up their horizons and branch of the Silicon Valley bank on 10 January, which makes them understand the connection between studying the hon. Lady mentioned. It is a valuable business today and an interesting and exciting job tomorrow is model, and I know that the Financial Services Authority clearly a good thing. is close to reaching a final decision on a banking licence. The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills Mr Willetts: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her sponsored an event with McKinsey on 17 January. The positive response. Let us try to work together on that. I Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation bet the kids are much more sophisticated users of the and Skills, my hon. Friend the Member for Hertford apps on their mobile phones than either me or her. We and Stortford (Mr Prisk) met 60 angel investors, specifically should cut out the middle man and get them to talk aimed at enabling entrepreneurs in tech city to pitch to directly to the software developers. I assure her that I them for investment; that took place on 26 January. will keep in very close touch with tech city. We will bring I have had meetings with the vice-chancellors of in another set of major venture capitalists from not just some of the universities that the hon. Lady mentioned, the UK but internationally to consider investing in and with others. I can report to the House that the businesses in the area. I know that the negotiations have Secretary of State and I will meet University college not yet been concluded, but we are also focusing on London, Imperial college London, the Olympic Park specific businesses that are considering undertaking Legacy Company and Loughborough university next training and apprenticeships in the area. As well as the week further to discuss progress on the Olympic legacy high-tech software programmer type jobs that are on site. We are continuing to work actively on the matter, offer, we know that the local community wants to fill and there will be a series of further events. I shall be the technical jobs that can come through apprenticeships. 245WH East London Tech City 9 MARCH 2011 246WH

Ms Abbott: I mentioned aligning what the Government Water and Sewerage Charges are doing with the local authority. There is a concern at (South West Water) local authority level that it is not involved or cited in the Government proposal. If the Government do not want to align themselves with the local authority, they could at least let it know what they are doing, but the local [MR DAVID AMESS in the Chair] authority is sort of being kept in the dark.

Mr Willetts: I am sorry that the hon. Lady thinks 2.30 pm that. I am sure that it will be possible to arrange for the Mr Adrian Sanders (Torbay) (LD): It is a pleasure to chief executive of the council to have a briefing on what serve under your chairmanship, Mr Amess. I have not UKTI is doing. I am up for working with the local had the experience before, but it is certainly a pleasure. community. If it would be helpful for such a meeting to take place, I undertake to ensure that it happens—if it is Today, I am raising a matter that is of great concern not happening already. We want to work with the local to the people of Devon and Cornwall and has been for community. This economic development is, of itself, as long as I have been a Member of Parliament, and I good for the local community. As the hon. Lady rightly suspect for longer than any of us here today have says, having all this activity has transformed the area in represented our local communities. I had the pleasure the past 20 years. If it would be helpful to have a of raising this issue in an Adjournment debate previously, meeting, I would be happy to suggest it to UKTI. but this is the first time that I have been able to do so as a Member of Parliament on the Government side of the We are delivering on the ideas set out in the Prime House. The fact that the problem has remained almost Minister’s speech three months ago. We are making exactly the same for so long is both a reflection of the progress and we are absolutely committed to the scheme. intractable nature of the issues involved and a sad I am confident that we will continue to achieve the high reflection on the record of previous Administrations. ambitions that he set us, and I am very happy to keep They had time to tackle this injustice, but sadly they the hon. Lady closely in touch with progress as we were unable to come up with a solution. I sincerely hope advance. that the Minister who is here today will not let our Government follow the same path. 11.24 am Of course, the problem is the disproportionately high Sitting suspended. water bills in the south-west. Although the new Ofwat settlement has only just been released, the indication is that the average bill in the region will be £517 a year and the price rise will be about 8.1%. Rather mischievously, Ofwat had initially told the press and the public that the rise would be only about 5%, but that forecast assumed that customers would adapt their behaviour in the future. It is accepted that more people will move to using water meters. Around 70% of water customers in the south-west already have one and Anna Walker predicted that that figure would rise to 80% by 2015. Moving to water meters would save those south-west customers around £400 per year, but the money still has to be found from somewhere. Metered bills will rise in response to the dwindling supply of high-paying unmetered customers, adding more than £200 to the bills of metered customers. Metering and in-region social tariffs have long been identified by Ofwat and the Government as an easy solution, but they do not have an impact on the underlying problem. Even if one takes the price rise as a 5% average, that is still far too high for most people to cope with in this age of austerity. It is also important to remember that I am talking about average bills. Many of my constituents now face water bills far in excess of £1,000. That reflects a range of circumstances, from medical conditions that require extra water to simply having a larger family. As always, unmetered customers suffer the worst. The average bill of £517 in the south-west compares starkly with the average bill in London, for example, which even for unmetered customers is only £332 per year. The privatisation of utilities was meant to open up sectors to competition and to empower consumers, but the privatisation of water has done nothing of the sort. Can one imagine the outcry if electricity prices were 60% higher in Newcastle than they are in London? Any 247WH Water and Sewerage Charges (South 9 MARCH 2011 Water and Sewerage Charges (South 248WH West Water) West Water) electricity company that tried to implement such price Mr Sanders: Indeed. I would rather like Regina Finn disparities would simply see its regional market share to spend perhaps a year in the south-west on average evaporate. wages. If that were to happen, I think that we would see a change in Ofwat’s policy. Hopefully we are all aware of the background to this problem. The privatisation of water in the late 1980s left I also question the use of the retail prices index in South West Water with a backlog of infrastructure setting price rises. Although Ofwat technically enforces improvements to invest in. Combined with a tiny customer price ceilings, it is de facto setting prices. We are moving base and a lengthy coastline, that backlog meant that to a system of uprating pensions and benefits by the under the system of regional monopolies South West consumer prices index. We should do that for water bills Water customers would pay higher bills in perpetuity, too, at least to make the price rise somewhat defensible. with their only recourse being to move somewhere else On the wider issue, however, Ofwat has consistently in the UK. failed to engage with the real problems highlighted in Anna Walker’s review. At the moment, Ofwat does not For all its inaction, the previous Government at least seem to be interested in finding a resolution to the recognised the problem. The result is Anna Walker’s south-west problem and so it cannot be seen to be report into water charging, chapter 14 of which focuses standing up for south-west customers. When it comes to specifically on the south-west. The coalition is about to the protection of consumers’ interests in the south-west, respond to her report, which again makes this debate Ofwat is as useful as a chocolate teapot. timely. In our discussions with Ofwat, its representatives I want to cover briefly three points that are relevant have told us that solving this problem would be complicated to what is happening now and hopefully the Minister and that we should focus on a social tariff instead, can take them into account when he is developing the which is where Ofwat is investing its time and energy. final policy on this issue. First, the role of Ofwat needs Curiously enough, the official line is that Ofwat took to be assessed very closely. Ofwat’s role as the regulator that decision unilaterally. Parliamentary answers revealed must be to protect customers and as Regina Finn, its that neither the Department for Environment, Food chief executive, said herself: and Rural Affairs nor the Treasury gave any instructions “People can shop around for the best deal on many things, but or guidance and that Ofwat has not even written down a not water. Our job is to do this for them.” plan of its work for reviewing Walker. All we have had I am afraid that the overwhelming view of my constituents is a vague indication from the hon. Member for Ogmore is that that “job” is not being done. Many of them see (Huw Irranca-Davies), who was the Minister with Ofwat as hindering rather than helping the situation in responsibility for water in the previous Government, the south-west. Whereas bills fell slightly ahead of that Ofwat should look into reviewing Walker. inflation in other areas, the south-west has seen the very The plot thickens, however. When I submitted a large rise that I described. freedom of information request on this issue, it emerged that the Treasury briefed Ofwat on what it wanted Ofwat to achieve in its work, but as yet, exactly what Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab): Is not the real that entails has not been disclosed. Perhaps I have been scandal of this year’s price increase that customers were unfair to Ofwat in that the Government are the reason assured at the time of the last price review under the why it is useless at protecting South West Water customers. Labour Government that there would be reductions in Maybe the Minister will reveal the truth. their water bills in this price period? South West Water is hiding behind the current Government’s failure to Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): One of the reasons control inflation. That is a sign of gross insensitivity why Ofwat might not be particularly effective in protecting compared with the situation in, say, local authorities, South West Water customers is that when water was where everybody else is having their pay frozen. privatised, a risk-free money-making system was effectively created. When somebody has a monopoly on services such as water and sewerage services, that is bound to Mr Sanders: I only half-share the right hon. Gentleman’s happen. However, the problem in the south-west is that view, because Ofwat is the body that should protect the there is a national asset—the beaches—that has to be consumer and it has allowed South West Water to raise cleared up and cleaned up at great expense by a very charges by the amounts that I described. small part of the population. The south-west has 30% of the national beaches, but only 3% of the national Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab): I agree population. Of course, if we compare that with the with the hon. Gentleman’s assessment that Ofwat’s role National Gallery or the British Museum, which are in this regard is key, although I also accept the points funded from national taxation, we in the south-west made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Exeter have to protect a national asset on the basis of having (Mr Bradshaw). I have just received an e-mail from one only 3% of the population. That is simply unsustainable. of my constituents that makes exactly the same point as the hon. Gentleman. My constituent says that he lives Mr Sanders: My hon. Friend makes a very important in a three-bedroom house; there are two residents, and point, and I made that same point in a Radio Cornwall he has received a bill for more than £1,000 for the interview not an hour ago. It is amazing that that coming year. Ofwat has agreed these prices. My constituent’s station can be picked up so far away. question is, “Do they realise just how much individual My main point is that the development of a solution customers are having to pay and the impact on those is fundamentally undemocratic and beyond scrutiny. households?”I urge the Minister to look again—please—at Deciding which combination of Walker’s recommendations the role of Ofwat in all this. to implement should be down to the political will of 249WH Water and Sewerage Charges (South 9 MARCH 2011 Water and Sewerage Charges (South 250WH West Water) West Water) [Mr Sanders] get something done for their long-suffering constituents, and I hope that many of them will be able to contribute Ministers and the Government. It should be for them to later in the debate. take the courageous decision to put an end to this The overarching problem, which Walker ably injustice or suffer the political consequences. The solution demonstrates, stems from privatisation. On privatisation, should not be watered down—excuse the pun—by quangos South West Water had the smallest asset base—what and officials who have no inherent interest in standing was called the regulatory capital value—per customer, up for water customers, especially not those in the far and it now has the highest, at 210%. That means that south-west. Ofwat claims that a levy on other water South West Water customers will pay far more for company areas to bring down bills in the south-west, or longer. If that situation were to occur in any other to equalise bills across the country, would breach Treasury utility it would be outrageous, but for some reason rules, and it is not keen to explore changing those rules, successive Governments have tolerated it in the water but the nationwide social tariff suffers from that very industry.The previous Government sadly never understood same problem, because it involves moving money around the damage caused by the failed privatisation. I describe between water customers, outside the Government’s it as failed not because the water companies have not coffers. provided a good service—on the whole they have—but because it has simply not delivered a market, not even a Dan Rogerson (North Cornwall) (LD): I am very heavily regulated one. No domestic consumer can choose grateful to my hon. Friend for all his work on this issue between water companies, and instead of being reinvested over a great number of years, and I congratulate him on fully in the service, the surplus created is converted into securing the debate. profit for shareholders. The water customers in the Does he not agree that there is perhaps a misapprehension south-west do not like that, and I suspect that if it among some people that the south-west is a wealthy happened to other regions they would not like it either. part of the country, and that that somehow informs the That brings me to some potential hope in this doom view that costs could not be shared across the country? and gloom. We have a new Government. We are in the There is an idea that many wealthy people are sitting era of new politics, and appear to have a listening down on huge estates in the south-west and being Government, and so I invite the Minister to join in this subsidised by poorer people in urban areas elsewhere spirit of new politics and listen to the people of the when, in fact, areas such as Cornwall are some of the south-west. If he spoke to them, they would tell him most deprived—there are very low incomes there. That that they do not want just a social tariff or some is what ought to inform the decision about a more adjustments around the edges, but a fair and transparent equitable way forward. system, whereby they pay the same as everyone else in the UK for the water and sewerage services they use. Mr Sanders: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. In The Minister’s party was in power at the time, so he my constituency of Torbay, the unitary authority area might not join me in wishing that privatisation had now has a gross value added level lower than Cornwall’s never happened in this industry, but I hope that he will was when it qualified for objective 1 assistance, and acknowledge that it was carried out in a wrong-headed there are other such pockets in the south-west. way. The company in the south-west needed a much bigger customer base, and needed to be compensated Alison Seabeck: I would like to reinforce the hon. for the poor state of its infrastructure. If the Minister Gentleman’s point. Does he not agree that, with the does join me in this, I hope that he can take the next current increase in water rates, we will see more pensioners, logical step and support something that addresses these particularly in the area around Torbay and in my historical problems and lifts the unfairness. I particularly constituency of Plymouth Moor View, falling back mention unfairness because it is important not to conflate down below the poverty line? The Government would it with affordability, and it would be very foolish if the not want to see that happen, but undoubtedly they will. Government pretended that addressing the problem of water poverty also solved that of unfairness. I shall give an example to illustrate the problem. A family earning Mr Sanders: The hon. Lady is absolutely right on £35,000 would never come under the scope of WaterSure that point. or any improved social tariff. They would, however, feel If Ofwat is not supportive, we at least have political incredibly aggrieved if they had to pay anything up to unity around the idea that something more than a social £400 more for exactly the same service and product tariff and something specific to the south-west needs to than if they lived anywhere else in the country, and that be done, and I need only consult the Hansard report insult is made worse by the fact that the service is a from a previous debate on this very issue, in January basic necessity. 2010, to see that. In that debate, we had the support of I understand, however, the Minister’s difficulty in the then Labour Members for Plymouth and some being able to give concrete answers to many of the warm words from the then Minister with responsibility questions that will be raised today. There will necessarily for water, the hon. Member for Ogmore. The right hon. be input from the Treasury as well as from No. 10, and Member for West Dorset (Mr Letwin), who is now one in a way it is a shame that we cannot have Ministers of the Prime Minister’s chief aides, stated that from both Departments—the Treasury and DEFRA—here “there seems to be a strong case for some kind of spreading of today, as some might argue that the solution is to be cost”—[Official Report, 27 January 2010; Vol. 504, c. 323WH.] found at the Treasury. The Treasury can make or break The Liberal Democrats have, of course, championed another Department’s plans, but I hope that the Minister the cause for many years. I see that I am joined today by is pushing the case both for a social tariff and, more Members from all parties, who are united in wanting to importantly, a solution to the south-west injustice. 251WH Water and Sewerage Charges (South 9 MARCH 2011 Water and Sewerage Charges (South 252WH West Water) West Water) Overall, we know the problem. Water bills for all As other hon. Members have said, we are not, as is customers in the south-west are far too high, as a often assumed, a wealthy area. Some 22% of people in result of the way in which the industry was privatised. the south-west are pensioners, which is well above the We need a structural solution, through Government national average. No one would suggest that pensioners intervention, to remedy that unfairness. I am not sure are a wealthy group, but they are none the less being how much detail the Minister can give in response, but I subjected to outrageous rises in their water bills. Will want him to recognise the difference between addressing my hon. Friend the Minister take all those points into water poverty and addressing unfairness. I hope that he consideration? It cannot be fair for 3% of the population can restore, or shall we say maintain, my faith, and that to shoulder the burden of cleaning up 30% of the coast. of others, in this Government, by promising to address Of course, none of us feels that we could have continued both those issues. using 200 sea outfalls to dispose of sewage, and we all welcome the economic boost from the infrastructure Alison Seabeck: On a point of order, Mr Amess. To programme instituted by South West Water, but it is avoid any possible misunderstanding, I should draw clearly unfair that the burden of that necessary programme Members’attention to an entry in the Register of Members’ should fall on our constituents. Financial Interests by my right hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich and Woolwich (Mr Raynsford), in whom 2.52 pm I have an indirect interest: he is my partner. Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): It is a pleasure to serve 2.48 pm under your chairmanship, Mr Amess. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Torbay (Mr Sanders) on Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con): I congratulate securing this important debate and articulating so well my hon. Friend the Member for Torbay (Mr Sanders) the case for taking action, and my hon. Friend the on securing the debate and on raising this really important Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) on reinforcing his issue. points. I shall start by reading from an e-mail that I have My contribution will be relatively brief. I want to received from a hard-working 52-year-old constituent emphasise some of the points made by my hon. Friend of mine, Mr Bamber. This is the first time that he has the Member for Torbay. The privatisation of the water written to his MP: industry 20 years ago effectively created a risk-free “I’m having a pay rise of 0.0% this year, but being a good bloke money extortion system, as I said earlier. The company it’s for the good of the country. Then my water bill arrives—it’s knows full well what the circumstances are in the south-west. risen by 9.75635%. I’m mad, and I’d like something done about it.” It can almost print its dividend the year before, because He is not alone; I have received several e-mails. Another it knows how the market works: it is not competing with disturbing fact was raised in an e-mail from a constituent anyone else, and the only variables are uncertainties who pointed out that his elderly mother, who is 80, has about its input costs during the year and the risk that it a water bill of £1,040, despite existing on a post office might not be able to recover payments from all its pension and being in substantial difficulties. customers, which is increasingly occurring in areas such Although we all appreciate schemes such as WaterSure, as mine. Incomes in Cornwall have been at the bottom many constituents have great difficultly in accessing of the earnings league table since records began, and them. I was particularly disturbed by a visit to my South West Water’s prices are and have always been surgery this week by the husband of a constituent who significantly higher than in the rest of the country. In suffers from severe multiple sclerosis. He brought with those circumstances, people have great difficulty paying him evidence that he had sent to South West Water of the water charges with which they are presented. The her very much increased water usage as a result of her legacy of basing water charges on the archaic and condition, and of the fact that she is on the higher rate unjust rating system, which is not used for any other of disability living allowance. They have, however, been purpose, re-emphasises that significant reform is needed. declined access to WaterSure, which I am sure hon. The one beneficial outcome of the circumstances in Members agree is a complete disgrace. I hope that which the system operates is that it encourages people South West Water address that matter immediately. to recognise the advantages of water metering. South The issue is one of unfairness. As my hon. Friend the West Water has not engaged in an evangelical campaign Member for Torbay has pointed out, our constituents to encourage people to install a water meter in their do not have any choice in the matter, other than to live homes or premises; people have simply recognised that somewhere else in the country, which is clearly ludicrous. they can at least attempt to control their bills by various The rises have been described as 8.1%, but for many means, and in many cases the most effective way is to constituents, they are nearer 10%. install a water meter. If there is a silver lining in the cloud, it is that people have pursued that. I think that it Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot) (Con): Does my is accepted across all parties that the increasing move hon. Friend agree that there is a case for suggesting a towards universal metering is broadly desirable in public cap, which would not allow the 8% rise to apply in the policy terms, and certainly in environmental terms, if south-west? we are to address the proper management of natural resources. Dr Wollaston: I agree completely. If Ofwat were In my intervention on my hon. Friend the Member doing its job properly, it would see that that is inherently for Torbay, I drew parallels with other, similar national fair. It is completely unreasonable to expect anyone to assets. Our beaches are a national asset, which people deal with a rise of more than 5%. Near 10% is totally come to from all over the country all year round. It is outrageous, particularly given that our constituents have not just a summer thing, as it used to be; in my constituency, no choice whatever in the matter. kite surfers come down from London and from other 253WH Water and Sewerage Charges (South 9 MARCH 2011 Water and Sewerage Charges (South 254WH West Water) West Water) [Andrew George] are aware of the issue and some have undertaken their own calculations of the impact that it might have. I am parts of the country throughout the winter months to confused and uncertain about how far down the water enjoy the beaches and the sea around our coast, and companies will have to go—it is possible to get stuck on they do so with some confidence that they will not go these issues due to the number of metaphors that could away with a bug, due to the efforts of South West Water be adopted in relation to them, but I shall not dwell on to clean up those beaches and ensure a significant that for too long—before they take on those obligations. reduction in the public health risks associated in the Other issues include the state in which those sewers past with bathing in some waters in the south-west. would have to be in order for them to be fit to be Those beaches are a national asset, like the British adopted and, indeed, whether the companies will have Museum, the National Gallery and the Olympic stadiums, the opportunity to assess the condition of those drains which are being funded by everyone in the country. We and sewers in the first place. do not ask London taxpayers alone to fund them. The information that appears to be coming from the marketplace and from those who are engaged in the Anne Marie Morris: I support what the hon. Gentleman industry is that both the previous and present Governments is saying, because the heart of his argument is about have not properly assessed the true impact that the fairness. Everything that we have heard to date has been proposal is likely to have. The knock-on effect will be about affordability. As crucial as that is, I would be on all customers—not only in the south-west, but concerned if any future review or consultation did not countrywide—although it will be disproportionately address fairness. The points that he is making are absolutely worse for those in the south-west, because any increase right. in their bills will be on top of something that is already extortionately high. I know that the Minister is looking Andrew George: I know that Ministers are wrestling into the issue. The matter clearly needs to be resolved to produce a fair and equitable solution, and I know before we go down the track of finally forcing water that this Minister has been engaging constructively and companies to adopt private sewers and drains. I hope is well seized of the problem and the challenges that we that the Minister will address the issue in his comments. in the south-west face—I have no doubt that he understands The hon. Member for Newton Abbot (Anne Marie the issue fully. Discussions with other Departments, Morris) has left the Chamber, but she raised the issue of especially the Treasury, will inevitably be involved. I fairness. When we have debated how we can address the hope that the issues can be resolved to the satisfaction legacy of unfairness that has been left to South West of the long-suffering water rate payers of the south-west. Water customers, we have talked about the potential My hon. Friend is absolutely right that any solution adoption of a national levy, which is one of the options must emphasise fairness. proposed by the Anna Walker review. A national levy It is worth while, when considering the issue, to would be a very small, gnat bite of a charge, which few compare water with electricity, telecoms and other utilities. people would notice and which would address some of In any other part of the country, it is at least possible to the inherited legacy of additional unfairness in the opt for another supplier of services. Therefore, whichever south-west and other parts of the country. However, if part of the country someone happens to live in, they we adopted such a levy, and if it were simply a flat rate will know that a regulator is regulating the market to charge for all water rate payers, poor water rate payers ensure that there is fair competition and an even playing in one part of the country—the north-east, for example— field, so that anyone in the country has the opportunity might end up subsidising wealthy second home owners, to at least obtain services—in this case, we are talking who already pay, if they have water meters, significantly about water and sewerage services—that are no worse less than most people in their locality. Clearly, in order and no better than anywhere else in the country. We pay to address the issue of fairness, if we were to adopt a a significant amount more. national solution, it would have to be significantly more sophisticated than a simple, flat-rate solution. I know Alison Seabeck: On the glamorous subject of sewage, that the Minister is well aware of the issues. does the hon. Gentleman share my concern that, apart from the current pressure on bill payers in the south-west, Mr Sanders: It is worth putting on the record the we will have additional pressure from the transfer across amount that would be asked of each customer. It is in of the private sewer network? It seems to be a completely the Walker review. It is £1.50 per customer per year. unknown quantity—South West Water does not really know what it is taking on and what the impact will be. Andrew George: I am grateful to my hon. Friend—he Will the hon. Gentleman join me in urging the Minister has the figure to hand, but I do not. As I have said, it is to offer reassurance on that? an imperceptible gnat bite of 3p per week throughout the year. It is not a significant charge for people, and the Andrew George: The hon. Lady is absolutely right. I potential benefits to this country’s water rate payers, do not know whether this is area in which she is such as those in the south-west, who are significantly declaring her interest. disadvantaged, would be considerable. Finally, I have emphasised the benefits to water rate Alison Seabeck: Not in sewage. payers if they, in most cases, adopt a water meter. Many of those living in houses in multiple occupation, sheltered Andrew George: I am sure that her interest is in housing and so on are not able to install a meter in their something far more glamorous than the adoption of own individual property. When they query that and ask private sewers. I have raised the matter with the Minister South West Water how, given the unfairness of the and there has been consultation on it. Water companies system—particularly if they are elderly, do not use a lot 255WH Water and Sewerage Charges (South 9 MARCH 2011 Water and Sewerage Charges (South 256WH West Water) West Water) of water and live n their own—they might reduce their Thames tunnel, and the argument is that if we make an bills and the exorbitant charges that they have to endure, exception for the south-west, recognising what has been they are told that they have a range of alternative done there, the injustice that has been suffered and the options, one of which is to return to South West Water, infrastructure that has had to be put in place, we would which is obliged to offer them an assessed charge, which be setting a precedent for other water companies. assesses their notional water usage and charges them on the basis of what they would have been levied had they The answer is to design a scheme to address those had a water meter. concerns—something that should not be beyond the wit of man. I have raised the issue with the Minister before, In all such cases with which I have dealt over the so he will be aware of my suggestion for a fair discount years, those charges have usually reduced bills by half scheme. There would be two key criteria at the heart of or more. My point to the Minister is that, rather than that formula. First, there would be affordability. We expecting water rate payers—particularly those living in would use the definition of affordability cited in Anna sheltered accommodation who do not have assessed Walker’s report, which says that anyone who spends charges—to believe that there might be an alternative more than 3% of their household income on water bills solution and to then be articulate and confident enough is water poor. We should ensure that all those who to approach the company to ask for one to reduce their spend more than 3% are eligible for some form of charges, it should be the company’s default position to discount. That would catch about 70% of South West make those customers aware of the availability of an Water customers, and millionaires with second homes assessed charge. Many vulnerable people live on their in Cornwall would not be eligible because they would own in sheltered accommodation without the benefit of not spend more than 3% of their household incomes on reduced charges on water meters, but they could at least water. That would deal with the second argument that I be given the opportunity of an assessed charge. That is set out about people on low incomes subsidising millionaires. what the company should be doing in the first place. I have run South West Water down something rotten The second key criteria at the heart of the scheme this afternoon, and to be fair, the chief executive, would be recognising fairness. The scheme would recognise Christopher Loughlin, is fully engaged with these issues. in absolute terms the scale of the bills in the south-west. When I raised the issue of assessed charges, he accepted People often have bills of £700 or £800 a year, and I that the company can be much more on the front foot have even heard anecdotally of people getting bills of and assured me that it wants to tackle the issue. He is £1,000 a year. That is why water charges are a political conscious of the impact on his customers of issues such issue in the south-west in a way that they are nowhere as the fairness of billing and the charges levied by South else. There is a real issue of fairness just in terms of the West Water, and he is fully behind the campaign by absolute size of the bills. Members from all parties. The company is aware of these issues and would welcome any solution that, while We would, therefore, have a discount, which would be not giving it any particular benefit, would reassure its tapered depending on how much people’s bills varied customers that arrangements can be put in place that from the national average. We would say that people in are more equitable than those they have had to endure the south-west, whose bills are double the national for the past 20 years. average in many cases, were entitled to the full discount, which might be £80 or £100 a year. They would still pay 3.10 pm more than anyone else, but they would receive a significant discount, which they would recognise as making a real George Eustice (Camborne and Redruth) (Con): I difference. congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Torbay (Mr Sanders) on securing this important debate on the In areas such as that covered by Thames Water, problem of water charges in the south-west. As he said, people might be technically water poor, but the fairness it is good to see colleagues from all parties here, many of criteria would recognise that water bills in London are whom have campaigned long and hard on this issue already very low and, indeed, below the national average. over a number of years. The taper would ensure that the discount given to those I want to focus much more on the difficulty that we who were water poor in the Thames Water area was far have solving this problem than on the problem itself, smaller, because we would be recognising that their bills which has been comprehensively articulated by previous were not such a difficult issue and started from a low speakers. As I see it, the problem comes down to three level. key issues, which are often highlighted by Ofwat. First, half a dozen MPs from the south-west face the brutal The provisions would ensure that we had a national problem of persuading 600 MPs elsewhere in the country scheme that was open and available to all. Such a that it is worth their while voting through legislation to scheme would target affordability and not subsidise require water customers in their areas to pay a sum of millionaires. It would also recognise unfairness and the money—albeit only £1.50 a year—without, as they fact that water charges are a political issue in places would see it, getting anything in return. such as Devon and Cornwall by having a taper and changing the discount depending on the variants. The second difficulty is one that the Minister has previously raised: someone on benefits or a very low I put those thoughts to the Minister a couple of income—someone living on the minimum wage in months ago, and lots of work is going on. I commend somewhere such as Manchester—could end up subsidising the approach that he has taken; he has worked incredibly the bills of a millionaire with a second home in Cornwall. hard to find a solution. The coalition has given a The third problem that is sometimes cited is that we commitment to address the problem, and we all have a might set some sort of precedent. Thames Water is, for reason for wanting a successful outcome. I very much example, doing a lot of infrastructure work with the hope that we can find a solution together. 257WH Water and Sewerage Charges (South 9 MARCH 2011 Water and Sewerage Charges (South 258WH West Water) West Water) 3.16 pm The average bill for South West Water customers is significantly higher for 2010-11 than elsewhere in the Mr Jamie Reed (Copeland) (Lab): It is an absolute country, at £486, as opposed to a national average of pleasure finally to serve under your chairmanship, £339, as I think has been mentioned. In addition, Mr Amess. I congratulate the hon. Member for Torbay unmetered customers also face much higher bills, with (Mr Sanders) on securing this debate. I have taken note an average of £721 for South West Water consumers, as of the attention that he has given these issues in opposed to a national average of £394. parliamentary questions and, most recently, in early-day motions. I am well aware of the anger, frustration and As has been roundly discussed, that does not happen even desperation that many of his constituents feel as a by accident. The widely condemned Thatcher privatisation result of the long-standing problems with water and of the water industry in the 1980s led directly to many sewerage charges in his area. of the problems that we face today, but the south-west’s significant demographic and economic characteristics As the hon. Gentleman will acknowledge, MPs of all reinforce the problems associated with high bills. They political persuasions across the south-west have focused must be understood in an integrated way. They cannot a great deal on this issue. I have talked about it at length be considered in isolation. As has been touched on, with my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Moor 22% of South West Water customers are pensioners, View (Alison Seabeck) and my right hon. Friend the although being a pensioner should not be used as a Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw), who are particularly blanket term to denote people living in financial hardship; exercised by the lack of progress on the Walker review—an many hon. Members would share that view. In addition, issue to which I will return—and by the continued I think that it has been proved that lone parents have suffering of their constituents, particularly the poorest more affordability problems than single pensioners. The ones. percentage of lone parents in the south-west is at the It would be wrong of me not to pay tribute to the national average. outstanding work of Linda Gilroy, who did a huge An extremely high proportion of the population live amount of work in ensuring that the previous Parliament in sparsely populated rural areas—something that I am was aware of and understood these issues, and any familiar with. That makes service provision more expensive future progress will necessarily be down in part to the and diminishes economies of scale. The policy solutions remarkable effort that she expended. should address the problems that are faced today. The fact that housing affordability issues are the most acute Andrew George: It is worth ensuring that that in the UK outside London should be considered. As commendation for the work done by the former hon. has been alluded to, the region is the UK’s top tourist Member, Linda Gilroy, has cross-party support. As a destination. The population rises more than by 25% in fellow officer of the all-party group on water, I know peak tourist weeks, with the result that the demand for that her commitment and involvement took the campaign water is a third higher than for the year as a whole. a great deal further than it would have gone otherwise. Her work certainly should be commended, and the I understand that South West Water understands Minister will no doubt recognise that, too. those issues, and it should be commended, as it has been, in part, by hon. Members on both sides of the Chamber, for investing more that £1.5 billion in the Mr Reed: I thank the hon. Gentleman for those clean sweep programme, which has done so much to remarks. With his typical generosity, he demonstrates transform sewage treatment and the natural environment. that a solution can be found on a cross-party basis. However, bills for consumers in the south-west are now As somebody who is closely associated with my own 25% higher than those in the rest of the country, and for region, the north-west, I understand how Members of the most vulnerable in the south-west community—those Parliament can form a regional identity and share concerns struggling alone on a pension, lone parents trying to across party lines about issues that are of outstanding raise their families and single people living in rented regional importance, as water is in the south-west. I also accommodation—water bills present a struggle. It has understand how politicians from other regions who been estimated that their bills can take 10% of their pontificate about regional issues, where those almost incomes. Surely, that cannot be acceptable. I pay tribute certainly require national solutions, can quickly arouse to the Consumer Council for Water for the work that it suspicions among MPs from the region in question. As has done and continues to do in trying to influence a Member of Parliament from Cumbria, which is prices for consumers not only in the south-west but surrounded by the Irish sea and the Cumbrian fells, throughout the country. which is partly within the Lake district, which is sparsely We can talk at some other stage—I have no doubt populated, where tourism is incredibly important and that we will—about the current economic situation, its where water and sewerage bills have risen exponentially causes and its potential remedies, but it is certain that since 1989 to become the highest outside the south-west, the people in our society who will feel the effects of the I understand. recession the most, and who will without doubt feel the The average annual bill for water and sewerage services brunt of the Government’s cuts the most, will be those in the south-west has risen by 72.2% between 1989 and who already suffer the most from rising water charges, 2010-11—the highest increase in the country. As my by comparison with other consumers. It cannot be right hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Moor View for up to 10% of their incomes to go on purchasing stated in her Adjournment debate last year: what is a basic entitlement—a right—while food and “The problem we face is simple: water rates in the south-west fuel costs are rising, the Government have raised VAT are 25% higher than the UK average, placing an unfair burden to 20%, unemployment is rising and job insecurity is on…my constituents and all residents across the south-west of everywhere. Action must be taken sooner rather than England.”—[Official Report, 14 June 2010; Vol. 511, c. 710.] later. 259WH Water and Sewerage Charges (South 9 MARCH 2011 Water and Sewerage Charges (South 260WH West Water) West Water) The issues associated with water and sewerage charging income after tax. As we have heard, in the south-west, in the south-west are difficult. The hon. Member for some households pay in the region of 10% of their Torbay called them intractable. The Minister knows income on water bills. Does the Minister know what that they are difficult and has said as much in this place percentage of people living in the south-west live in and to the Select Committee on a number of occasions. water poverty? Will he undertake to publish an assessment He understands the difficulties of the decisions and of how many people are living in water poverty by recognises the difficulty for many people who face such region and by constituency, and ensure that his White water charges. I believe that the Minister wants to do Paper will contain measures with which to eradicate the right thing, but wanting to do the right thing and water poverty? I believe that there is much common doing it are very far away from each other. Intentions ground on which we can build. count for little. The difference between intention and action is the same as the difference between night and day. It is difficult for DEFRA Ministers, as the Secretary 3.27 pm of State hovers around the exit door to get things done, and the Department risks becoming inert, like many The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for others in Whitehall, as sackings loom and the near 30% Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon): departmental cut begins to bite, but a lot of the heavy It is a great pleasure to serve under your watchful eye work on this issue has already been done, in the form of today, Mr Amess. I congratulate my hon. Friend the the Walker and Cave reviews. Member for Torbay (Mr Sanders) on securing this important debate. I also congratulate him on his long The Government announced in August 2010 that association with this issue and on standing up for his they would review the regulation of the water industry constituents, like so many other hon. Members, of all to assess whether the current framework, including parties, this afternoon. Ofwat’s statutory duties, remained fit for purpose. Does the Minister believe that Ofwat is fit for purpose, and if My hon. Friend raised several issues, but a key point not, why not? The industry review is also meant to was about the role of Ofwat. Other hon. Members, not assess how well Ofwat translates guidance from the least the Opposition spokesman, mentioned its role, Government and its statutory duties into its decision and it is important to understand how it operates. I am making. With that in mind, did the Government give surprised that the hon. Member for Copeland (Mr Reed) any advice to Ofwat with regard to water pricing in the has not quite grasped the fact that it is an independent south-west before Ofwat set the price for the region for body. It would be entirely wrong of me, as the Minister, this financial year? Did the Government give any guidance to try to influence its approach to its independent role, to Ofwat about the problems being faced by south-west which is written in statute. That is not to say that we are customers before the latest price rise was announced? sitting back and allowing the status quo to go on Inflation is currently 4.7%, yet Ofwat’s allowed increase existing. We are testing, deeply and in great detail, for South West Water customers averages at 5.1%. Have whether Ofwat is fit for purpose and in a suitable the Government discussed that with Ofwat at any stage, condition to go to the next phase. Twenty years after before or after the announcement, and is the Minister privatisation, it is right for us to examine all aspects of happy with that level? the water industry. I understand that the water review will directly inform David Gray, a highly respected individual who has the Government’s White Paper, to be published in June. great experience in the regulatory world, is carrying out Will the Minister confirm that the White Paper will be a detailed review. I urge the hon. Member for Copeland published no later than June? He will understand that it and all those who are interested in this fascinating needs the fullest parliamentary scrutiny if it is to command subject to understand the review that is taking place, broad support. The fundamental question is whether, and the role that Ofwat plays. I am determined that the almost a year after taking office, the Minister can constituents about whom so many hon. Members have explain what is halting the implementation of the Walker spoken so movingly should be at the forefront of our review. It was a superb piece of work that commanded minds while we consider the issues in question. Ofwat support from hon. Members on both sides of the House has an important duty to protect and stand up for them, and that held within it, as has been mentioned, many independently of the Government. When the Government potential remedies to the problems of the south-west get things wrong Ofwat has a duty to tell them so. It and South West Water consumers. also has a duty to ensure that the water companies, who Will the Minister today give hon. Members a categorical have monopoly interests, are responsible to the people assurance of a commitment in principle by the Government concerned. I take that duty very seriously. to implementation of the Walker findings and to a The hon. Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Alison timetable for implementation? That is not much to ask. Seabeck), who is no longer here, made a point about Further, will he confirm that the reduced capacity of water poverty. My hon. Friend the Member for Torbay DEFRA has in no way affected the implementation of and others mentioned that there might be some people the Walker recommendations? Will he also address in the House—I am yet to meet them—who believe that fears that the Government’s review and the production the south-west is full of comfortable people who have of its White Paper have prohibited the implementation moved there in retirement and are relatively wealthy. I of Walker thus far? There are fears, which so far are know that, largely, the opposite of that is true and that justifiable, that the Government are backtracking on many people and communities suffer high degrees of Walker. In the words of the American gospel hymn, deprivation. Of course, there are wealthier communities. “How long, O Lord, how long?” However, if people assume that any community in the Finally, the Chartered Institute of Environmental south-west can take such a level of water bill increase Health has defined water poverty as beginning when a because there is no poverty, they make a fundamental household’s water bill equates to more that 3% of its error. That is something I take very seriously. 261WH Water and Sewerage Charges (South 9 MARCH 2011 Water and Sewerage Charges (South 262WH West Water) West Water) [Richard Benyon] bills that year were lower. We can argue about percentage points, but that is an important factor. Let us take that Yes, I speak to people from the south-west, and, yes, I matter forward in our consultation, which I will come will listen. That point was raised by my hon. Friend the to in a moment. Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston). I have listened and I am acutely aware that nobody wants to see higher will continue to listen to people in the area. I know what bills, particularly in these tough economic times. However, an important issue this is and that it is a political as well we should not lose sight of the fact that the money as a social issue. The matter is fundamental to the raised will pay for £159 million of investment in the concerns that hon. Members have voiced for much too region during the next financial year, which will benefit long. I recognise that we must come forward with customers. I know that that sounds trite, and I am not solutions and, in a moment, I shall talk about how we diminishing the effect of the increase, but we must will achieve that. recognise that there are also benefits, including £14 million I hope that I can address some of the other issues to improve tap water quality, £10 million to repair during my remarks and, of course, I remain willing to crumbling sewers and £28 million to further reduce deal with them. A point was made about the adoption pollution incidents. of private sewers. I cannot say precisely when we will introduce proposals on that, but the coalition has a very Mr Bradshaw: Given the severe squeeze on family clear commitment to dealing with that important issue incomes, would it not have been better for South West and to ensuring that we do so as equitably as possible. Water to have delayed some of that expensive investment The hon. Member for St Ives (Andrew George) also has and to have frozen the rise? The Minister seems to be a long background in talking about the subject, and I giving the impression that the Government do not bear appreciate the support, the many conversations we have any responsibility for inflation, but it is, of course, his had and the assistance he has given me on the matter. I Government who have let inflation rip. accept his point about a default position, and I will follow that up with South West Water and continue to Richard Benyon: I chose to ignore the right hon. have conversations with him. Gentleman’s earlier remarks about the Government My hon. Friend the Member for Camborne and being responsible for the rise in inflation at a time when Redruth (George Eustice) has provided me with an commodity prices and oil prices are rising. He only has interesting idea. I can tell him that officials are crunching to read the newspapers to see what is happening to food his numbers as we speak and that he has contributed prices and how that is being influenced by so many some thoughtful suggestions. At this stage, I cannot say other different factors. I think I shall move on, because how we will take that forward, but I will keep in touch I simply do not accept his point. with him. In passing, comments have been made about privatisation. All I shall say is that £90 billion has been Mr Bradshaw: Why is inflation in Britain more than invested in the water industry, which is a considerable twice as high as it is in Germany? achievement, and that other Governments have had endless opportunities to reverse what happened 20 years Richard Benyon: We could debate that at great length ago. I recognise the very real belief in the south-west and talk about our reliance on oil, how that might differ that, in the case of that area, not enough thought was from other countries, where we were working from a given. I will address some of those points, too. year ago and the impact of the previous Government’s First, I shall discuss the specific issue at hand. Ofwat activities, of whom he was a part. I will be happy to has announced that average bills for household customers have that debate at another time but, at the moment, I of South West Water in the coming year will increase want to talk about the right hon. Gentleman’s constituents from £486 to £517, which is an increase of 5.1%. Nearly and the impact of the increase in water bills. I also want all that increase is due to inflation, as water bill increases to talk about the actions that are in my power to take to are linked to inflation. improve that. I am happy to take any interventions that he may wish to make on that. Dr Wollaston: May I raise the point that the accepted We have been carefully considering Ofwat’s final advice figure is 8.1% because the figure that the Minister in relation to the south-west, which I only received in quotes assumes that people will be switching to water January. These are difficult issues, and, as has been said, meters? there are no simple solutions. It is essential to ensure that our proposals are workable, fair and affordable, Richard Benyon: My understanding is that that is the particularly in the current economic climate. We hope figure over the piece. However, I am happy to look into to issue our consultation on the Walker review soon, that and give my hon. Friend an absolutely clear and but it is essential that we get this right. unequivocal answer, because it is important that we Hon. Members have discussed the differential between know that figure. In my hon. Friend’s earlier remarks, I metered and unmetered bills. The average bill for a think she raised the point about why we use the retail metered household in the south-west is around £400, prices index rather than the consumer prices index. while the average bill for an unmetered household is [Interruption.] Sorry it was not her; it was my hon. around £720. Hon. Members have given examples where Friend the Member for Torbay. Bills have been tied to both types of bill are considerably higher than those inflation since privatisation because, when inflation is averages. That is because—as we have heard—70% of higher, water companies’ costs increase. As is the case households in the south-west are metered. Average metered with other regulators, Ofwat uses RPI. Although RPI and unmetered bills reflect the estimated water consumption was higher than CPI this year, it was actually lower than between those households. Unmetered households pay CPI when last year’s bills were calculated, so average more, because, on average, they use more water than 263WH Water and Sewerage Charges (South 9 MARCH 2011 Water and Sewerage Charges (South 264WH West Water) West Water) metered households. As hon. Members are aware from final advice only in January. I am sure that hon. Members previous debates, bills vary between companies. That agree with me that we must ensure that our proposals reflects the cost of providing water and sewerage services are workable, fair and have the support of interested in an environmentally sustainable way in different regions parties. I am determined, as I have said frequently—I with different circumstances. make no apologies for saying it again, although I wish In all cases, Ofwat—as the independent economic that we had got there by now—to get this right. regulator of the water industry—ensures that bills are Andrew George: On the various alternatives, I know no higher than they need to be to finance the investment that each one is not easy, as the Minister has made clear. required to provide water and sewerage services. My He is clearly very seized of the challenges of coming to hon. Friend the Member for Totnes and others have an equitable solution. Does he not agree with me that in discussed how unfair it is that 3% of the population pay having a solution that is simply within the company to clean up 30% of the coastline, and I know that that is itself—a social tariff within the company boundaries—there the prevailing view in the south-west. The Walker review would be inevitable unfairness, wherever the line was looked closely at whether environmental improvements drawn? People on moderate incomes, who would have are public or private goods and who should pay for difficulty paying the bill, would be subsidising other them. Anna Walker concluded that spending on people in the same company area, when they are already environmental improvements, such as cleaner beaches, suffering from very high water bills. is largely required to make sure that the disposal of sewage does not harm the local environment and that Richard Benyon: I entirely accept what my hon. Friend the benefits are mainly local. In particular, having a has said, which is why I am sure that in the south-west it sewage system and beautiful clean beaches delivers huge would be more popular for us to use the national benefits to the region through tourism. I know that average, which is one of the suggestions that we will be there are many people—I am one of them—who enjoy taking forward. the beaches and the coastline, but who do not pay those We have started to prepare our guidance on company bills. The complication of trying to devise a scheme social tariffs under Section 44 of the Flood and Water where we can hypothecate is something that not just I, Management Act 2010, which will enable companies to but my predecessors and many others in this House, introduce social tariffs within their own areas to help have sought to tackle. households that would otherwise struggle to pay their Support is available now for low-income and vulnerable bills in full. We hope to issue our guidance in the households. Currently, the national WaterSure tariff autumn, so that companies can consider it ahead of caps the bills of qualifying households at the level of the 2012-13 financial year. Indeed, this afternoon the the average metered bill for their company. Households Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs qualify for WaterSure if they are metered and in receipt is hosting a discussion with water companies and others of means-tested benefits, and either have three or more to exchange views on what the guidance needs to cover. children living at home under the age of 19, or someone South West Water is participating in that discussion. I in the household who has a medical condition that understand that it is very keen on the possibility of necessitates a high use of water. bringing forward a company social tariff. It has indicated to me that changes to how it levies sewerage charges Individual cases were raised today. As they were could potentially raise about £7.5 million per annum to described to me, those people should qualify, but are fund a company social tariff without adding a penny to not receiving WaterSure. I want to take those cases up. household bills. That would potentially reduce the bills My hon. Friend the Member for Totnes raised a case of 100,000 households in the south-west by about £75 per about a multiple sclerosis sufferer. I would like to know annum. I strongly encourage the company to look whether multiple sclerosis has an increased water favourably at that possibility. requirement, and why that case is not covered by WaterSure. The hon. Member for Copeland asked when we are That is something that we may have to look at through going to implement the Walker review. The Walker the consultation that we are about to undertake. review identified a number of options. Implementing WaterSure ensures that such households do not cut the review would involve implementing all those options, back on their essential use of water due to fears about some of which were more-or-less dismissed by Anna the size of their bill. This year, some 31,200 households Walker herself. She did, however, identify a number of are benefitting from WaterSure and approximately one options that would help to address the problems associated in three of those households live in the south-west. We with high water bills in the south-west, in addition to are looking at whether WaterSure should offer a more proposed changes to WaterSure. Ofwat has been exploring generous cap, which could cap bills at the lower of the those options, and we are currently considering the national average metered bill, or the company average information that it has provided. Some options could metered bill, as recommended by Anna Walker. That potentially benefit all households in the south-west, and would deliver substantially lower bills for those households not just those on low incomes, which should address that live in high cost areas. We are also looking at some of the comments that have been made today. whether it would be more fair to share the cost of Options include a one-off, or annual, adjustment funded WaterSure across customers in England, rather than by the Government, an annual adjustment funded by fund WaterSure at the company-specific level. We will water customers nationally, a range of tariff options, be inviting views on that when we publish our Walker rebalancing charges and the sale of surplus water. Decisions consultation. will be taken imminently, and we will set out our Some have asked why the Government have not made proposals for the south-west in our Walker consultation. those changes already. We have been considering them I recently received Ofwat’s final recommendations. I alongside Ofwat’s advice on tackling the problem of can address the concerns raised by the hon. Member for high water bills in the south-west. I received Ofwat’s Copeland and others by saying that we will be taking 265WH Water and Sewerage Charges (South 9 MARCH 2011 266WH West Water) [Richard Benyon] Animal Welfare those forward very soon. I should also mention some of the initiatives that South West Water is taking. Since 3.57 pm 2007, its WaterCare scheme has helped households in debt by offering them a benefit and a water tariff check George Eustice (Camborne and Redruth) (Con): It is including, if appropriate, a meter. Metered customers a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Amess, also receive a free home water audit and simple low-tech for this debate on animal welfare and trade negotiations. water-saving devices. I have seen those schemes in operation, The importance that we place on the welfare of other and they are successful in reducing the amount of water animal species on the planet is a measure of how that households use, with minimal impact on their lives. civilised our society is. We all know that animals feel In fact, in some cases there is an improvement, and I pain and fear. They have maternal instincts. Anyone applaud any roll-out of such schemes. who has ever had a dog knows that they can even feel South West Water recently announced that it is enhancing emotions such as loneliness and jealousy. How we treat its current WaterCare scheme to WaterCare Plus. That sentient animals that are raised in captivity for food will include home energy audits and advice on claiming really does matter and says something about us as a grants. In addition, in the coming year it is investing society. £1 million in its FreshStart programme to offer advice Animal welfare is an area in which legislators should to customers with general debt problems. Both the be prepared to take action. The truth is that the public WaterCare Plus and FreshStart schemes are fully funded care deeply about the welfare of animals, but the paradox by South West Water and do not impact on customer is that in a modern, sophisticated society, people are bills. The company will also be making free water-saving often separated from farming practices and the slaughter packs available to its customers, and it will be promoting of the animals that they consume. There is therefore a them through the local media this month and next. I danger that the human conscience of consumers ends very much welcome and support those initiatives. up being dissipated by the simple fact that, for the Metering offers an opportunity for some households majority of people, farming and slaughter processes to save money. Ofwat estimates that three in 10 single are, frankly, out of sight and out of mind. The only way pensioners, working-age adults who live alone and, to a to bridge the gap between the empathy that people lesser degree, pensioner couples in the south-west, are might feel for animals and the information that they currently unmetered and could expect to see their bills have about farming is by legislators exercising judgment go down, if they were metered. South West Water has and implementing laws that recognise the ethical dimension already undertaken two advertising campaigns—in of how we produce our food. Plymouth, and in Exeter and Torbay—aimed at There is another element to this. Farming is sometimes encouraging low-income unmetered households to look described as an industry, but I would say that it is not at whether a meter can reduce their bills. I believe that like any other industry—it is unique. It is not just about more can be done to build on that. For example, all churning out a product for consumption at a given unit unmetered households can investigate whether a meter price. Farming is intrinsically linked to life itself and can save them money by using the Consumer Council entwined with the environment, of which humans are for Water’s water meter calculator, which is available at just one part. If we take the special nature of farming the Consumer Council for Water’s website. for granted, we end up in trouble with animal health May I reiterate to my hon. Friend the Member for problems, disease and even human health problems. In Torbay, who secured the debate, and to other hon. recent decades, that is exactly what has happened. Members for whom the issue is of great concern to Consideration of animal welfare standards has been them and their constituents, that the Government are trumped by an apparently more important theory about very aware of the problem of high water charges in the free trade. That is wrong. south-west? Support is already available to help the I am a Conservative, and no one believes in the vulnerable and low-income households with their bills. concept of free trade more than me, but even I can see We will build on that, and our Walker consultation will that the concept of free trade is frankly a lower order point the way forward. I hope that hon. Members, will consideration when compared with more fundamental bear with me for just a little while longer. I will, of issues such as animal welfare and the health of our course, be happy to meet any hon. Members with environment. All too often in recent decades, moves to constituencies in the south-west to discuss this and to take a lead and to improve animal welfare standards at ensure that they have the understanding that they need home end up being stopped in their tracks by the threat to communicate our consultation, when we bring it out. that we will merely export our industry to countries that I again commend my hon. Friend the Member for have even lower welfare standards. That fear is entirely Torbay for bringing this matter to the Chamber today. justified. Mr David Amess (in the Chair): Order. If no other When the UK unilaterally banned sow stalls for pig hon. Members want to contribute to this debate, the production, our industry lost out to that in other countries sitting is suspended until the Minister arrives for the where pigs were treated less well. The concern that our next debate. farmers will lose out as a result of improved welfare legislation means that the policy response has typically 3.50 pm been to trim our ambitions and to stifle our consciences, because the theory of unfettered free trade has been Sitting suspended. considered to be a concept that is beyond challenge in any circumstances, and seen as a principle that trumps concerns such as animal welfare. 267WH Animal Welfare9 MARCH 2011 Animal Welfare 268WH

It is time to challenge that muddled thinking. A First, article XX makes it absolutely clear that animal civilised society should have a system that encourages health is a legitimate factor to be considered in trade competition to raise animal welfare standards, not to negotiations, but the European Union has been weak in lower them. We should not jeopardise our farming arguing that. It states that industry simply because of some arbitrary rules set “nothing in this Agreement shall be construed to prevent the down many years ago in the general agreement on adoption or enforcement by any contracting party of measures: tariffs and trade and since enforced by the World Trade (a) necessary to protect public morals; Organisation. I shall return later to some of the relevant articles in GATT, because I shall argue that many of the (b) necessary to protect human, animal or plant life or health”. provisions to recognise animal welfare standards in the We should be arguing that the health of an animal is world trade system already exist, but we have not been intrinsically linked to its welfare, and that under article good enough at taking them up. XX that should be a legitimate consideration that is factored into trade negotiations. First, I shall speak about the coalition Government’s Secondly, article III is also relevant to the issue. It position, and that of the Conservative party. Just a year deals with regulations within countries and says that ago, in February 2010, the Conservative party published there should be equal treatment for like products. It a very good document, “A New Age of Agriculture”, states: which was our agenda for British farming. The section “The products of the territory of any contracting party imported on animal health and welfare contained an explicit into the territory of any other contracting party shall be accorded commitment: treatment no less favourable than that accorded to like products of national origin”. “We will promote animal welfare at an international level and work towards the inclusion of production standards in WTO The debate is about the definition of “like products”. negotiations.” All too often in the recent past, people have said that a chicken is a chicken regardless of how it is produced. That could not be more unequivocal or clear, but I That is simply not the case. In the egg industry, it is decided a couple of months ago to follow it up and to recognised clearly that the method of production counts see what progress there had been in making the case to and that eggs are not all alike: all eggs sold in the UK the WTO and internationally for the changes. I tabled a must have a number from 1 to 4 to designate whether parliamentary question asking what discussions had they were produced in cages, or are barn eggs, free range taken place on this important issue. The response was: eggs or organic eggs. “None. The World Trade Organisation’s…Sanitary and The Minister will be aware that there is much discussion Phytosanitary Agreement only allows controls on food safety, in the poultry industry about the danger that the plant and animal health grounds. While we are totally committed new EU legislation being introduced to improve to improving animal welfare standards the situation is that unanimous conditions for cage-reared birds may be implemented agreement of the WTO’s membership would be needed to change disproportionately. It may be implemented properly in this to include production standards such as those relating to animal welfare. Such agreement is unlikely to be forthcoming the UK, but not elsewhere in countries such as Poland. because many of the WTO’s members would regard such standards That is causing a lot of concern in the poultry sector, as likely to facilitate protectionism rather than trade.”—[Official and I understand that the Government may even be Report, 2 December 2010; Vol. 519, c. 957W.] considering banning eggs from EU countries where they have not been produced to the new legally required What I really want to know from the Minister is minimum standard. whether that represents a change in the Government’s What an upside down world it is when we argue that position, and if so did the coalition require that? I it is okay to ban products that do not match our legal would find that surprising. The Conservative party has standards in the EU, where we supposedly have a single its differences with the Liberal Democrats, but I would market and are all part of one happy family, but that have thought that Liberal Democrats cared about such adopting similar measures and a similar stance as countries issues as much as we do. I wonder whether it is simply outside the EU is considered to be a bridge too far and that the Department has other priorities, and has not a step that simply cannot be taken, although the methods yet managed to put the matter back on the agenda. I of production would be illegal in the UK. Clearly, would like some clarity on that from the Minister. something has gone wrong. When it comes to agriculture, Returning to GATT and the WTO, I want to say a we must be very clear that a “like” product must mean a little about how we can get from A to B—from wringing product produced to the same standard of animal welfare. our hands about the problems of animal welfare and The principle that we have established in the egg industry, how we improve it within the WTO system to being able for example, should be applied to all meat products. to implement and obtain agreement. I am conscious Before concluding, I want say a little about labelling that it is easy for people to say, “Oh well, it’s impossible and consumer choice. We have got ourselves into a bit to achieve change because of the difficulty of getting of a muddle in some areas. We sometimes apply asymmetric worldwide agreement.”The WTO is undoubtedly reluctant legislation to farmers, and then tell them to compensate to recognise what are described as process and production for those new laws by trying to command a premium in methods—PPMs—when dealing with world trade disputes. the market, to have better labelling, and to try to obtain As I said earlier, farming is unique and unlike any other a higher price for their product. I think that is a cop-out industry. That is why we must ensure that the WTO because an important principle is involved. If a farmer opens its eyes to those wider considerations and takes a makes the conscious choice to adopt farming practices look at issues such as animal welfare. The truth is that such as organic farming, which go well beyond the legal the provisions to do that already exist in GATT. All we minimum required, he does so voluntarily and having need is the confidence to get on and implement them made a judgment that he will be able to command a effectively. premium in the market. However, if that farmer is 269WH Animal Welfare9 MARCH 2011 Animal Welfare 270WH

[George Eustice] 4.14 pm The Minister of State, Department for Environment, forced by law to improve animal welfare standards, the Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice): I congratulate responsibility is on legislators to ensure that he is not my hon. Friend the Member for Camborne and Redruth exposed to unfair competition due to others using practices (George Eustice) on securing this debate, and I am that would be illegal in this country. Otherwise, we sorry that it is only a short Adjournment debate. The simply export cruelty abroad, and no one wants that. issues he raises go to the heart of things that the My second point about consumer demand is that Government and I hold dear. He started by reminding notwithstanding my earlier argument about farming me of what I wrote in the Conservative document on practices and slaughterhouses being remote from modern, agricultural policy about a year ago, and I do not resile sophisticated societies, in recent years there has been a from those objectives. I want to explain to the House sharp increase in demand for ethically produced food. what we are doing and how we are trying to take There has been a huge growth in demand for free range forward the objectives that we share. As part of the eggs and other organic foods. Some argue that that is business plan for the Department for Environment, the solution, and that it is evidence that we do not need Food and Rural Affairs, we want to support and develop to change the rules of the World Trade Organisation, British farming, encourage sustainable food production but I think it proves something different. If consumers and improve standards of animal welfare. are willing to recognise that there is a difference between The previous Government’s Animal Welfare Act 2006, products based on how they are produced, why cannot which had cross-party support, makes it an offence to legislators recognise the same? During one test case at cause unnecessary suffering to any animal and contains the WTO, it was held that a duty of care and the five freedoms and so on. The “differing consumer tastes and habits” 1999 treaty of Amsterdam requires the Commission was a legitimate and relevant factor in determining and member states to consider animals as sentient whether products were, or were not, alike. The fact that beings. I was a Member at that time and know that that consumers distinguish between food products based on was seen as a significant step forward, and it was later the system of production strengthens the case for the reinforced by the Lisbon treaty. Therefore, a large body Government to argue under article III that we should of EU legislation improves animal welfare. As my hon. recognise higher animal welfare standards. Food produced Friend said, we have experience in this country of to such standards is not like food that has had a lower taking unilateral action for the most noble of motives, level of production. such as improving the welfare of pigs. I am thinking of To conclude, it is time to modernise the World Trade pig stalls and tethers, but that action had a catastrophic Organisation and the world trade system generally. We effect on the pig industry in this country, and there was should give nation states the right to safeguard their probably no substantial gain in pig welfare. markets against imports produced in third countries to My hon. Friend referred to a chicken being a chicken. less civilised standards. We should not be asking the I was going to relate that not to production in the way World Trade Organisation how to interpret articles III that he described, but to concern for animal welfare. It and XX, we should be telling it. Some say that such an may salve our consciences to raise standards of animal approach risks protectionism and would undermine the welfare in this country and not care about the rest of interests of developing countries, but that claim does the world, but if that means that we simply export those not stand up to scrutiny. It does not follow that welfare lower standards of animal welfare, it is not a case of a standards are lower in developing countries. Indeed, chicken being a chicken—the chicken in England has some of the worst excesses of the industrialisation of moved to being a chicken in another country kept at a agriculture and factory farming tend to be associated much lower standard. There is a tremendous amount to with developed—not developing—countries. In many be said for doing our best to raise standards across the cases, developing countries pursue less intensive and piece, not just unilaterally, and that is important. more traditional farming practices that are better for My hon. Friend referred to the directive on caged animal welfare. Quite often, production processes in hens, and I do not want to be led at this stage to say those countries are already informally regulated by what we might do in this country if the situation does large retailers in the UK who often insist that food not improve. We have strongly emphasised our views to produced in developing countries is produced to the the Commission, and we believe that the matter must be same welfare standards as in the UK. dealt with at European level. It is abundantly clear that In truth, the latest Doha round of the World Trade a number of European countries will not have complied Organisation has been stalled for several years. Rather by the end of the year with the requirement to replace than leave those negotiations in limbo, bogged down all their conventional battery cages. Sadly, the Commission and making no progress, why should we not be realists seems to suffer from the illusion that that is still possible, and reconcile ourselves to the fact that, for all the but I assure my hon. Friend that the Secretary of State reasons I have identified, farming—especially livestock publicly stated in an Agriculture Council meeting a farming—is a special industry and a special case? That fortnight ago that we are not prepared to contemplate would free up the position as far as negotiations on any extension of the time scale, that the measure must other products and industries are concerned. work and that the deadline should not be delayed. Requiring all exported meat to be produced at least My hon. Friend also referred to competitiveness, to the same standards of the country to which it is which is what we saw in the pig industry. Extra costs can destined is less radical than it sounds, and it could have be involved in higher welfare standards, and the European a huge impact on our culture and on attitudes towards Commission—thankfully—now considers international animal welfare. I hope that the Minister will take some competitiveness as part of the impact assessment of of those points on board. new policies. 271WH Animal Welfare9 MARCH 2011 Animal Welfare 272WH

My hon. Friend made a significant point about the my hon. Friend would expect us to get the WTO rules World Trade Organisation. What I said in the written changed very quickly, and I want to spend a few moments answer to which he referred is factually correct. As we on that. The first point to impress on people is that see it, the WTO does not allow measures to be taken to improving animal welfare standards can benefit producers, ban imports on the grounds of animal welfare. It is, of because quite often they get higher productivity from course, wide open to any member of the WTO—or in animals if they are kept in better conditions, although our case, the EU—to impose a ban on whatever it likes. some costs can be involved. However, that would be done in the knowledge that the ban might be challenged and various trade measures The second issue, to which my hon. Friend rightly taken to deal with that. referred, is the role of what are sometimes called private My hon. Friend referred to the fact that the Doha standards—the role of the retailers in demanding higher round is in a complete state of stagnation. My colleagues standards. That has been very successful across the in the Foreign Office and the Department for Business, world in raising production standards. There is some Innovation and Skills are anxious to get those negotiations evidence, as we might expect, that when the cash figures back on track, but that will take time. That is the reason go the wrong way, retailers turn round. This example is for the perhaps somewhat terse written answer that I directly pertinent to a point that my hon. Friend made. gave my hon. Friend. While all eyes are on Doha, we I was very concerned to hear only last week that one of cannot start changing the very framework of the WTO. our major retailers that until now has been sourcing all its organic pig meat from the UK—that meat is certified I shall now deal with the specifics about the WTO, to Soil Association standards—has now decided to stop the general agreement on tariffs and trade and various doing that and to source organic pig meat from abroad. other global agreements to which my hon. Friend rightly That meat is up to European organic standards, but referred. He referred to article XX of GATT and read they are not as high as the Soil Association ones. If out the relevant justifications: protecting public morals what I have said proves to be correct, it is a pretty and protecting human, animal or plant life or health. shameful approach and does not show much support Another justification is conserving exhaustible natural for our own industry. resources. Whether animal welfare could come under any of those headings is, frankly, untested, and I fully My hon. Friend made the point, which I have to understand his desire that we should seek to test that. repeat, that many people and organisations see welfare It is worth making the point that certain measures restrictions as some sort of ban on trade. The same can have been taken internationally. In some cases, they apply to the private standards to which I referred. The have been contested. They do not relate directly to EU made a commitment to support international initiatives farmed animals, at least not in the UK. My hon. Friend to raise awareness and to create a consensus on animal will be aware of the seal trade ban—the ban on products welfare through its action plan for the period from 2006 from sealing. The European Commission banned them to 2010, and we want that to be continued through the and used the justification of a distortion of trade, but I strategy for the period from 2011 to 2015. stress that that is being challenged under the GATT treaty. There is a serious risk that the WTO court will It is fair to say that animal welfare has not been a find against it. major priority for many Governments in recent years, either because they have believed that it is a trade issue The Commission also imposed a ban on importing and market forces will work, as my hon. Friend described, cat and dog fur, which came mainly from China. That or perhaps because the alleviation of human poverty was also done on the basis of distortion of trade. It has has been the predominant concern. However, we are not been challenged, although it may be in the future, so making progress. The EU has recognised that the first one could argue at the moment that we have got away step in getting third countries fully engaged in the with it. A longer-standing ban, which the previous development of animal welfare standards is to create a Conservative Government pressed hard for back in wider understanding and awareness of animal welfare, 1991, is the EU prohibition on furs and pelts—primarily including among Government officials and the exporters. from Canada—harvested by using leg traps. That has A conference on global trade and animal welfare was never been challenged. organised by the Commission in 2009. I am giving my hon. Friend some encouragement that some ways through this issue have been found, but We also have to recognise the OIE—the World those are not mainstream agricultural issues, as I am the Organisation for Animal Health—with which the first to recognise. I fully agree that, in an ideal world, we Commission is working closely. The OIE was created a would get this issue considered at WTO level. long time ago, in 1924, and has 178 member countries. I want to pick up some other comments and then, if However, it began getting involved in animal welfare there is time, I might return to one or two other aspects only in 2001. By the end of 2004, it had developed of the WTO. My hon. Friend referred to the sanitary guiding principles for animal welfare, and it held a and phytosanitary rules, known as the SPS rules. To conference in 2008 with more than 400 participants. refer to an issue that is closer to home, Europe has The most important outcome of the conference was the banned the use of hormones in beef production on the identification of key needs and the tools necessary to basis that we believe that there are public health risks in help OIE member states to strengthen their capacities, not doing so. However, the United States has challenged including in relation to good governance and relevant us, and the matter is progressing through the judicial infrastructure. The world assembly of OIE delegates process at the moment. has adopted seven animal welfare standards. Therefore, Again, we have a problem there and we have to think there is clear evidence that most of the world is moving through carefully what we do, but we can do other in the right direction. I hope that my hon. Friend will things in the immediate term. I do not think that even take a lot of comfort from that. On-farm animal welfare 273WH Animal Welfare 9 MARCH 2011 274WH

[Mr James Paice] Health and Safety (Construction Industry) issues are now beginning to be addressed by the OIE, 4.29 pm but that will take a bit longer. I cannot get away from that. Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab): It is a pleasure, Mr Amess, to serve under your None of that prevents higher standards through bilateral chairmanship. May I express my sincere appreciation agreements. The EU is now emphasising that. Since for being given time to debate this important subject? 2004, we have addressed animal welfare specifically in a number of trade agreements with Canada, South Korea, I wish first to express my thanks and appreciation for Colombia, Peru and central American countries. I the helpful information and advice given to me during understand that it is also part of the negotiations with while researching for the debate by a number of the Mercosur countries that are taking place at present. organisations—none more so than the Union of That work is clearly a step in the right direction. Construction, Allied Trades and Technicians, the National House-Building Council, the National Federation of My Department is working hard to provide training Roofing Contractors and the TUC. in welfare science and legislation to the veterinary services As the construction industry hopefully recovers, the and non-governmental organisations in a number of number of fatalities and serious injuries is likely to countries. We have made a significant contribution to increase—an increase in fatalities followed previous the EU Better Training for Safer Food programme and recoveries in the construction industry. The rise was the on welfare-during-transport training for veterinarians. result of good practices being lost when companies Of course, we also continue to invest in research, because were forced to lay off staff. Due to inadequate training that is hugely important. as the industry recovers, new inexperienced companies My hon. Friend and I are in exactly the same place on and workers will enter the industry, and their lack of this issue. There may be a slight variation in nuance on safety knowledge will often prove fatal. precisely how we go forward. However, the Government The cutting of corners to get one job finished quickly remain determined to do whatever we can to increase in order to start the next is a major killer. Another is animal welfare standards, not just at home but across workers working excessive hours. Working long hours the world, and to ensure that our producers are not leads to tiredness, which leads to mistakes. Indeed, the unfairly discriminated against by imports produced to Prime Minister recently said on television that he does lower standards. I conclude by reminding my hon. not work long hours, because it leads to bad decisions, Friend that we are also committed, in the document to so we have at least one supporter. which he referred, to ensuring that Government money The most common cause of death is falls. In 2009-10, is not spent on buying food produced to lower standards 25 workers were killed through falls, a 19% increase in than pertain in this country, and that policy commitment deaths over the previous year. The number of people will come to fruition in the next few weeks. being killed as a result of being hit by a moving vehicle slightly increased in 2009-10. As part of the comprehensive spending review, the Health and Safety Executive’s budget will be cut by at least 35% by 2015. It is impossible to make such large cuts without affecting front-line services. It has already been announced that the contracts of the 20-plus temporary construction inspectors, whose contracts run out later this year, will not be replaced. As well as the loss of temporary inspectors, there will be a reduction in the number of front-line inspectors. That is directly contrary to the Donaghy report, which recommended an increase in the number of inspectors. Cuts in the number of inspectors will inevitably lead to a reduction in inspections, enforcement activity, prohibition notices, prosecutions and convictions. Mr Andrew Smith (Oxford East) (Lab): I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way. I congratulate him on securing this tremendously important debate, and on the research that he has done for it. On the theme of the impact of the cut in the HSE grant, has he heard of the letter that was leaked to the BBC yesterday, which said that the Health and Safety Executive was proposing to reduce unannounced workplace inspections by a third? That would be disastrous if it affected the construction industry, as workers there are six times more likely to lose their lives than those in other industries. Jim Sheridan: I have not seen the letter, but I have heard of it. My right hon. Friend is correct that it would be disastrous, not only for the HSE but for workers in the construction industry. We should watch this space and see what happens. 275WH Health and Safety (Construction 9 MARCH 2011 Health and Safety (Construction 276WH Industry) Industry) Recent research shows that the level of enforcement health and safety on site. Society should accept that there needs to activity and the number of prosecutions being undertaken be a standard below which no construction worker should have to by the HSE is at a record low. Due to a lack of work.” resources, the HSE can investigate only one in every We have long campaigned for the introduction of 10 accidents. Cuts to the HSE’s budget are likely to statutory directors’ duties. It is virtually impossible to increase the under-reporting of accidents under the hold individual directors to account if a worker is killed Reporting of Injuries, Diseases and Dangerous Occurrences at work. The report states: Regulations 1995, which are otherwise known as RIDDOR. “As with most advances in society, e.g. seat belts in cars, drink Research by the university of Liverpool shows that driving, there comes a time when good practice has to become a only 32% of injuries involving employees were reported legal requirement.” under RIDDOR—for the self-employed, the percentage Rita Donaghy explicitly said: was only 12%. The proposals under consultation will “I recommend that there should be positive duties on directors weaken those regulations, which were originally proposed to ensure good health and safety management through a framework by the Youngreview. That will increase under-reporting, of planning, delivering, monitoring and reviewing.” and, as a result, poor health and safety practices will The introduction of directors’ duties would mean that if not be picked up early, which could result in further a worker is killed and it is discovered that a company fatalities. disregarded health and safety legislation, there is the There have been several notable deaths recently. The possibility of an individual director receiving a custodial circumstances are indicative of the industry. On Friday sentence. 21 January, four construction workers were killed in The construction skills certification scheme was set Great Yarmouth. The men were working on foundations up in 1995 by the construction industry to maintain a when adjacent steelwork fell on them. It was the worst record of construction site workers who achieve, or can accident for more than a decade, given how many demonstrate that they have already attained, an agreed workers were killed. Despite that, there was little or no level of competence. The CSCS card issued to successful mention of the accident in the national papers. In applicants offers a vital means by which cardholders October 2010, immediately following the announcement can record and provide proof of their skills and that the HSE could lose 35% of its budget, seven occupational competence. Cardholders are also required construction workers were killed. The deaths occurred to take a health and safety test relevant to their occupation. all around the country. The aim of the scheme is to help the construction industry reduce accidents and improve competency and Mr Stephen Hepburn (Jarrow) (Lab): I congratulate safety for individual site workers. my hon. Friend on securing this important debate. He There are currently more than 1.6 million cardholders, speaks about the incidence of deaths. Does he not agree and the CSCS works with 10 affiliated organisations to that the figures will inevitably increase with the reduction cover more than 350 construction-related occupations. in the Health and Safety Executive budget? The story The scheme is now widely used on the majority of that is doing the rounds at present—we should be construction sites, and all major contractors and pressing the Minister on this—is that unannounced homebuilders— inspections at construction sites will be scrapped altogether. There were 42 deaths on building sites last year. Does Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): I congratulate my hon. my hon. Friend agree that that figure will inevitably Friend on securing this debate. Does he not agree that increase? there is a need to enshrine the CSCS in legislation? Such a move would surely have a huge impact on the safety Jim Sheridan: My hon. Friend is right. It is obvious and health of people working in the construction and that the cuts will result in increased fatalities. I am sure building industries. If legislation were passed and the that the Minister will respond to this, but it is important scheme were rolled out—it has been rolled out for to remember that even though were are trying to reduce 1.6 million people at this point in time—throughout the the deficit—if, indeed, it is reduced—such people will industry, does he not think that that would have a huge not get their lives back, and they will not get their limbs impact on health and safety? back. It is important that we try to keep focused on health and safety. Jim Sheridan: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. As We warmly welcomed the publication in July 2009 of I understand it, there will not be any major financial Rita Donaghy’s report into construction fatalities. The impact if this card is introduced. Perhaps the Minister then Government commissioned that independent report can give us an insight into his thinking on the CSCS following strong lobbying by a number of trade unions when he makes his reply. and other agencies. It was the most significant and All the major contractors and homebuilders insist on far-reaching report into construction safety for well those cards, as the cards demonstrate their commitment over a decade. The 96-page report was entitled “One to safe and efficient working for construction workers Death is too Many: Inquiry into the Underlying Causes and clients. CSCS cards provide additional security and of Construction Fatal Accidents”. It made a number of peace of mind, as a fully carded work force is safer and major recommendations, two of which were the extension better trained. Government should lead by example and of the Gangmasters (Licensing) Act 2004 to cover the require the use of CSCS on all public sector sites. construction industry, and the introduction of statutory Indeed, they already require the use of these cards or directors’ duties. The extension of the 2004 Act was their equivalent on public sector sites as set out in the recommended in recognition of the fact that Office of Government Commerce common minimum “The further down the subcontracting chain one goes the less standards for the procurement of built environments in secure the worker and the less satisfied with the management of the public sector. 277WH Health and Safety (Construction 9 MARCH 2011 Health and Safety (Construction 278WH Industry) Industry) [Jim Sheridan] Jim Sheridan: My hon. Friend is right. If workers are placed in the position in which they have to choose The CMS recommendations state: between buying their own safety equipment or feeding “Clients are to include a contract clause requiring that all their families, one knows which option they will take. members of their supply teams who are workers on or regular The Donaghy report made the clear link between agency visitors to a construction site are registered on the Construction labour and construction safety. Skills Certification Scheme (CSCS) or are able to prove competency Finally, let me touch on the false self-employment in some other appropriate way.” that is going on in the construction industry. Well in The CSCS welcomed these recommendations, which excess of 50% of the industry are falsely self-employed. were accepted by the previous Administration in their The falsely self-employed do not have employment rights, response to the report. The CSCS would welcome so they can be sacked at a moment’s notice. They are clarification from the Government on which of the unlikely to raise safety concerns or refuse to undertake Donaghy recommendations they intend to take forward. tasks that they consider to be dangerous. Sites which use false self-employed labour are unlikely to have In a parliamentary written answer, published in December independent safety representatives, as no one will be 2010, the Work and Pensions Minister, Chris Grayling, willing to undertake this role in the fear of being said that the Government will targeted, victimised and sacked. Research has found “therefore progress those of the Donaghy recommendations accepted that independent safety representatives can help to reduce by the previous Administration which we consider are supported accident rates by up to 30%. by the available evidence.”—[Official Report, 1 December 2010; In conclusion, I recommend the leaflet that was published Vol. 519, c. 867W.] by the all-party parliamentary group on occupational In his reply, will the Minister commit to raise awareness safety and health. It sets out our concerns, if those cuts of the need to specify CSCS in all public sector contracts? were to go ahead. I certainly hope the Minister will read Will he say what progress has been made on the review this document, so that we can do what we can to protect of the OGC common minimum standards and whether those in the workplace. Fundamentally, I believe that the requirement to specify the use of CSCS will be when someone leaves for work in the morning, they retained and promoted? Which recommendations in the have the right to return home safe. Donaghy report do the Government intend to take forward, and what action do they intend to take to 4.48 pm monitor the eligibility of migrant workers to work, and The Minister of State, Department for Work and their qualifications and training? Pensions (Steve Webb): I congratulate the hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North (Jim Sheridan) on Let me touch now on the issue of blacklisting in the securing the debate, on all the work that he does as construction industry, which also has a major health chair of the all party parliamentary group, and on the and safety perspective. Safety representatives have been well-informed and measured way in which he has raised targeted by their employers, and many have had to leave these issues. As he rightly said, one death is too many, the industry as they were unable to find work. Despite which is the title of the Donaghy report. There were being the most dangerous industry in Britain, construction 42 fatalities in 2009-10 and that is not something to be has the lowest number of independent safety representatives, proud of. I should just say that the Minister of State, and all the major contractors have been involved in Department for Work and Pensions, my right hon. blacklisting. Friend the Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling), In recent years, there has been a huge increase in who takes the lead on these matters, is on the Front employment agencies and gangmasters operating in the Bench in the Commons responding to the Welfare construction industry. That has further casualised and Reform Bill and so I am standing in for him today. I fragmented the construction industry, which has know that he welcomes the fact that over the past implications for safety in a number of ways. Often there decade there has been a significant improvement in the is little effective screening of workers, and inexperienced number of fatalities in the construction sector. workers are placed on construction sites without the Let me give a feel of the progress that has been made. appropriate training. The workers are highly vulnerable, The reason I mention this is that if we can see that so they are unlikely to complain about dangerous practices. progress has been made over a decade—albeit that until Agencies are increasingly forcing workers to pay for we get to zero deaths we should not rest, and even then their own personal protective equipment, which is illegal. we should not rest—the challenge for us is to see what Agencies often flout the working time limit of 48 hours delivered the progress and whether we can continue a week. With workers undertaking excessive hours, doing more of those things or whether fresh duties, accidents are more likely to occur. fresh structures and fresh obligations are the best way forward. I want, therefore, to give some figures for the record. Ten years ago, in 2000-01, there were 105 fatalities, Ian Lavery: Is my hon. Friend aware that there is a compared with 42 last year. There are also figures huge problem in the construction industry with regard relative to the scale of the industry, which obviously to safety wear? In a meeting last week with the Health fluctuates. Measured relative to every 1,000 workers, in and Safety Executive, I heard about the huge problems every year except one of the last 10 the rate of fatalities with fake safety wear—helmets, boots and protective has fallen. The Health and Safety Executive, the trade clothing. If that continues, we will see more problems unions and the industry deserve some credit for the within the industry. Does he agree that the Government improvements that have been made. should do everything in their power to uncover the The hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North source of this crooked gear and get rid of it to ensure quite properly asked, “But what of the future?” He that people in the industry are safe? speculated that fatalities would rise. I know that the 279WH Health and Safety (Construction 9 MARCH 2011 Health and Safety (Construction 280WH Industry) Industry) HSE will be working very hard, in partnership with review and other changes. Details about all those things industry, the trade unions and the Government, to will be made clear to the House in due course. However, ensure that that does not happen. However, although he the key thing is that I have no doubt—in preparation for rightly says that there have been construction industry this debate, I have obviously had helpful discussions inspectors at the HSE on temporary contracts, they with the HSE—about the HSE’s commitment to an were always intended to be on temporary contracts. ongoing and high level of effective intervention in the This Government have not decided to make them construction industry. temporary. They were always fixed-term appointments One feature of the construction industry is that it is that were due to end this summer. Nevertheless, even if clearly different from other industries. At its best, it we exclude those inspectors, as at January 2011 we have is capable of great things and great successes, and it has more HSE construction division inspectors in post than a great deal of expertise in controlling health and safety ever before. risks to workers. Of course, even many of those temporary I just want to give some idea of the sorts of people inspectors I mentioned, who soon will not be working that I am talking about. Currently, 150 operational for the HSE, will go back into the industry and take inspectors visit sites on a day-to-day basis—up by nearly their expertise with them. 25 from three years ago. There are 24 line managers I said that there were just over 100 fatalities a decade who also conduct inspections. In addition, there are ago. Two decades ago, 154 construction workers were 16 inspectors in construction sector and policy; 20 killed. Progress, therefore, has been made—fairly specialist inspectors who provide expert input on the considerable progress over a period of 20 years or more. causes of accidents and advice on technical issues; and The hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North 27 visiting officers in the construction sector. As things mentioned the Donaghy inquiry and the issue of the stand, therefore, there is a very significant commitment Gangmasters Licensing Authority. I know that he has by the HSE to the construction sector. been involved with previous private Member’s legislation As with all aspects of Government, budget cuts have on the GLA and I also know that there is private been required of the HSE, but I stress that the HSE will Member’s legislation on the matter before the House at inevitably continue to concentrate its work on the highest- the moment. risk sectors— Jim Sheridan: The Minister has just announced figures Ian Lavery: Will the Minister give way? about fatalities. Do they include people who lost their lives as a result of occupational or industrial disease, Steve Webb: I hope that the hon. Gentleman will such as mesothelioma? allow me to continue for a moment. As I was saying, the HSE will continue to concentrate its work on the highest-risk Steve Webb: The figures that I gave—for example, the sectors, such as construction. figure of 154 fatalities for two decades ago—were for I also want to respond to the specific point made by construction workers who were killed in accidents at the hon. Member for Jarrow (Mr Hepburn) in his work. I entirely take the hon. Gentleman’s point that intervention. He suggested that there might be an end issues that emerge during refurbishment work, for example to unannounced inspections in the construction sector. with asbestos, silica and so on, are also very important. I am happy to confirm on the record that there is no Indeed, I will try to reassure him on that particular intention to stop unannounced inspections in construction point, as he raised it. The HSE is undertaking work on and indeed the HSE will be paying greater attention to refurbishment and even as we speak that work is ongoing. smaller sites, where we fully recognise that there are still The national refurbishment inspection initiative targets poorer standards. Indeed, it is on those sites that the small refurbishment sites where a disproportionate number majority of fatal accidents happen. of serious and fatal accidents occur. The current initiative has been run periodically for several years and it is Mr Andrew Smith: Will the Minister give way? going on now between 14 February and 11 March. Although full data are not yet available, to date nearly Steve Webb: If the hon. Member for Paisley and 1,200 sites have been visited, involving more than 1,400 Renfrewshire North is happy for me to give way, I will contractors and, alarmingly, breaches of health and give way, but I have only eight minutes left to respond to safety legislation were found to be so significant that his speech. I am in his hands. If he is happy for me to enforcement notices were required at 254 of those 1,200 give way, I will give way. sites. I join all hon. Members who have contributed to the debate in not being remotely complacent about Jim Sheridan indicated assent. where we are now on health and safety in construction. The challenge is to ask what effective regulation Steve Webb: I will give way. would look like. I fully respect the argument that says, “Bring the Gangmasters Licensing Authority supervision Mr Andrew Smith: I am grateful. I welcome the into construction”. I can see why that argument is assurance from the Minister. Can he assure us that there made. My reservation is that the health and safety will not be a reduction in the number of unannounced rights of people in the construction industry are there inspections? already. The hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North mentioned bogus self-employment. Whether Steve Webb: Obviously, the HSE will introduce its somebody is self-employed or employed, they have health proposals for responding to the budget changes. Indeed, and safety rights. Regarding some of the points that the Government will announce our health and safety the hon. Gentleman made about those in bogus self- strategy relatively shortly, in response to the Young employment, there are obviously issues about tax. However, 281WH Health and Safety (Construction 9 MARCH 2011 Health and Safety (Construction 282WH Industry) Industry) [Steve Webb] to be spent—or indeed anything like it—channelling it through what is quite an effective existing regulator, there is not much evidence—if any—that construction enabling it to do more, might be a better idea. fatalities are higher among those who are notionally classified as self-employed as opposed to those who are Jim Sheridan: The Minister has referred to £3 million employed. of taxpayers’ money being used to pay the licensing costs of the GLA. However, does he take into account The Gangmasters Licensing Authority is clearly a the fact that gangmasters are then registered and legalised, generalist authority that looks at issues such as minimum and migrant workers are registered and legalised and wage compliance, tax and national insurance, as well as they then pay tax and national insurance, which they health and safety.The danger is that if we bring construction would not be paying otherwise, so there is a net benefit within the scope of that authority we might get, at one to the Treasury? level, duplication and potentially we might get a sort of box-ticking mentality, whereby people think, “We’ve Steve Webb: The figures that I am referring to are the got to satisfy this regulator and that regulator”. There gross running costs of the GLA and the revenue from could be regulatory confusion if we have different bodies licences. I am not sure about the potential payback of trying to enforce health and safety. such a scheme in the construction sector. One thing to consider is that we would end up licensing in practice I also want to give an idea of the scale of what might the entire sector—as it were, the good guys and the bad be required if we bring construction within the scope of guys—and there would be a lot of dead weight in areas the GLA. At the moment, the GLA licenses 1,200 where there already was compliance with tax and national gangmasters. If the licensing scheme was extended to insurance legislation. cover the construction industry comprehensively, we could be talking about 200,000 licences. The cost of The hon. Gentleman also asked about the role of the regulating the 1,200 licences in the sectors covered by construction skills certificate scheme. That is certainly a the GLA already—agriculture, horticulture, shellfish well regarded industry-run scheme and a big one, although gathering and associated industries—is just over £4 million there are many similar schemes across the industry, as I a year, of which the taxpayer pays about £3 million. am sure he knows better than I do. My understanding is Clearly, there would be economies of scale if the GLA’s that the CSCS or an equivalent is already required licensing scheme was extended to cover the construction under Government contracts, which I very much welcome. industry, but simply pro rata-ing those figures to the full However, when it comes to legislating for the CSCS, for size of the construction industry would mean licensing example, one issue that arises is whether we should costs of £600 million. choose that particular scheme or others. On balance, the health and safety at work and construction regulations already require workers to be trained for health and Jim Sheridan rose— safety. To conclude, I take the issues that the hon. Gentleman has raised very seriously. We want to make more progress Steve Webb: I will give way shortly. Of that £600 million, on them and further announcements will be made the taxpayer would pay £400 million. On a pro rata by the Government in due course, but we will continue basis, we would potentially need 8,000 new inspectors. I to take construction industry safety and fatalities seriously, do not claim to be an authority on the subject, but I as the hon. Gentleman quite properly says that we find it difficult to imagine that there are 8,000 spare should. inspectors out there to be had, although people could be trained to become inspectors. In addition, creating 4.59 pm this type of parallel regulatory structure alongside the Sitting adjourned without Question put (Standing Order HSE’s work is problematic. If there was £400 million No. 10(11)). 61WS Written Ministerial Statements9 MARCH 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 62WS Written Ministerial DEFENCE Statements Armed Forces Compensation Scheme

Wednesday 9 March 2011 The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Andrew Robathan): I have today published a report entitled, “The Review of the Armed Forces Compensation Scheme—One Year On”. The report summarises the recommendations from the review and provides an overview TREASURY of the work undertaken by the Ministry of Defence over the past 12 months to implement the recommendations. Copies of the report are available in the Library of the Anti-avoidance House or can be accessed at the following website: http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/AboutDefence/ CorporatePublications/PolicyStrategyandPlanning The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David The outcome of Admiral the Lord Boyce’s review of Gauke): The Government are fully committed to tackling the armed forces compensation scheme was announced tax avoidance and will take necessary steps to protect in February 2010. While the review found that the the Exchequer and maintain fairness in the tax system. scheme was fundamentally sound, it made a number of As part of their work to improve tax policy making recommendations for improvement. I made some early and the stability of the tax system, the Government legislative changes last summer. published a discussion document on 9 December 2010 I am today pleased to announce the completion of all setting out a draft protocol on tax announcements remaining changes that will lead to significant increases outside scheduled fiscal events. This set out the criteria in the value of awards under the scheme. Most notable that Ministers will apply when deciding whether an is the change to guaranteed income payments—paid announcement of immediate change is justified. from the point of service discharge for life—which will be increased to reflect the lasting impact of more serious In line with that draft protocol, the Government are injuries on future likely promotions and on the ability making such an announcement today, to tackle an to work up to age 65. aggressive tax avoidance scheme that has been disclosed to HMRC. By acting immediately, the Government are Other changes include: seeking to protect the Exchequer and maintain fairness An increase, which averages in excess of 25%, to all lump in the tax system. sum award payments. This is except the top award which was recently doubled to £570,000; A lessee under a plant or machinery long funding Nearly tripling the maximum award for mental illness from lease can claim capital allowances. Some large businesses £48,875 to £140,000 in order to reflect accurately the impact have entered into contrived, circular transactions involving of the most serious mental health conditions; the sale, leaseback, and reacquisition of their plant and The creation of a new independent medical expert group to machinery, over a period of three or four weeks, with advise on compensation for specific, relevant illnesses and the aim of claiming tax relief twice on one amount of injuries such as hearing loss and mental health; expenditure. A revised approach to awarding compensation for multiple injuries, whereby all injuries sustained will receive some HMRC has recently become aware that the scheme compensation. has been widely marketed and implemented with associated No one will lose out as a result of these changes. All significant risk to the Exchequer. To date instances of those who have already received an award under the the scheme that HMRC are aware of have involved scheme will have their case automatically revisited and expenditure in excess of £1 billion, putting hundreds of will receive an uplift. millions of pounds of tax at risk. Legislation, which will have effect from today, will be EDUCATION introduced in the Finance Bill 2011 to confirm that lessees engaging in transactions of this type are only EU Education Council (14 February 2011) entitled to tax relief up to the actual amount of their expenditure on plant or machinery. This ensures that the rules continue to apply as intended by Parliament The Minister of State, Department for Education and will protect future losses to the Exchequer. (Mr Nick Gibb): Andy Lebrecht, Deputy Permanent Representative, represented the UK at the Education There should be no impact on commercial leasing Council, on behalf of the Department for Education arrangements, as the intended amount of relief will and the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. continue to be available. The legislation will simply put beyond any doubt that it is not possible to claim relief Ministers adopted conclusions on the role and for some expenditure twice. contribution of education and training to the implementation of the Europe 2020 strategy. These The legislation will apply both to new arrangements conclusions are consistent with the European Council and to existing arrangements where payment under a conclusions agreed by the Prime Minister in June and guarantee has not been made prior to today. we were therefore able to support them. Further details have today been published on HMRC’s There was also a policy debate between delegations website together with the proposed draft legislation and on the contribution of education and training to the a tax information and impact note. European semester and annual growth survey. Member 63WS Written Ministerial Statements9 MARCH 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 64WS states supported the overall annual growth survey messages that the system is bewildering and adversarial and that but there was wide agreement that national targets in it does not sufficiently reflect the needs of their child member states’ national reform programmes (as part of and their family life. the Europe 2020 strategy) should be realistic as well as Successive reports, such as the 2006 report of the ambitious. Education Select Committee and Brian Lamb’s report Member states outlined their national reform in 2009, have described a system where parents feel they programmes, with basic skills, adult education, the have to battle for the support they need, where they are professionalism of teachers, and prevention of early passed from pillar to post, and where bureaucracy and school leaving given as key areas for action. Mobility frustration face them at every step. issues were also raised, in particular by Germany, France Disabled children and children with SEN tell us that and Finland. Germany also stated that, in their view, they can feel frustrated by a lack of the right help at education should not be subject to the same Europe school or from other services. For children with the 2020 monitoring as fiscal areas and they specifically most complex support needs, this can significantly affect opposed country-specific recommendations in education. their quality of life. The UK intervention supported the annual growth Children’s support needs can be identified late; families survey and recognised the importance of education to are made to put up with a culture of low expectations jobs and growth, explaining the focus of reforms in the about what their child can achieve at school; parents do UK following the education White Paper. On national not have good information about what they can expect targets, the UK was clear that we were not mirroring the and have limited choices about the best schools and EU targets. Instead we were using nationally owned care for their child; and families are forced to negotiate indicators to measure and drive change. These indicators each bit of their support separately. According to the would enable us to measure progress against the headline Council for Disabled Children, on average a disabled targets. child experiences 32 assessments as they grow up. Resources that could be spent on support and teaching are diverted into bureaucracy. Special Educational Needs and Disability Proposed reforms Our proposed reforms respond to the frustrations of The Secretary of State for Education (Michael Gove): children and young people, their families and the Today the Government publish “Support and aspiration: professionals who work with them. The vision set out in a new approach to special educational needs and disability”. the Green Paper is informed by the views and expertise This Green Paper is about the children and young of families and national and local organisations working people in this country who are disabled, or identified with them. as having a special educational need. It is about their We want to put in place a radically different system to aspirations and their hopes. Their desire to become, like support better life outcomes for young people; give every child and young person, independent and successful parents confidence by giving them more control; and in their chosen future, and, to the greatest extent possible, transfer power to professionals on the front line and to the author of their own life story. local communities. It is about their families—who have consistently called To support better life outcomes for young people for better support for their children and themselves. It is from birth to adulthood we will help professionals: about families of the most disabled children who are identify and meet children’s needs early by ensuring that providing 24-hour care from birth, or the families of health services and early education and childcare are children struggling at school who do not know where to accessible to all children; work in partnership with turn for help. parents to give each child support to fulfil their potential; It is also about their teachers, their college lecturers, and join up education, health and social care to provide and the many skilled staff from the health and social families with a package of support that reflects all of care professions who do their best, day in and day out, their needs. We propose: to provide the right support and encourage the highest a new approach to identifying SEN in early years settings aspirations. and schools to challenge a culture of low expectations for Case for change children with SEN and give them effective support to succeed. Life chances for the approximately 2 million children A new single early years setting-based category and school-based and young people in England who are identified as category of SEN will build on our fundamental reforms to education which place sharper accountability on schools to having a special educational need (SEN), or who are make sure that every child fulfils his or her potential; and disabled, are disproportionately poor. By the time they leave school these young people are more than twice as a new single assessment process and “Education, Health and Care Plan” by 2014 to replace the statutory SEN assessment likely to be out of education, training or employment as and statement, bringing together the support on which children those without a special educational need. and their families rely across education, health and social We know that there is much that is excellent in the care. Services will work together with the family to agree a support for these children, young people and their straightforward plan that reflects the family’s ambitions for families. But we also know that this is not happening their child from the early years to adulthood, which is nearly enough. While the circumstances of children, reviewed regularly to reflect their changing needs, and is young people and their parents differ greatly; from clear about who is responsible for provision. The new “Education, Health and Care Plan” will provide the same statutory young people requiring a few adjustments in class to protection to parents as the statement of SEN and will children with life-limiting long-term conditions, hundreds include a commitment from all parties to provide their of thousands of families with have a disabled child or a services, with local assessment and plan pathfinders testing child with SEN have many shared concerns. Parents say the best way to achieve this. 65WS Written Ministerial Statements9 MARCH 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 66WS

To give parents confidence by giving them more HEALTH control over the support their family receives, we will introduce more transparency in the provision of services Parliamentary Written Question (Correction) for children and young people who are disabled or who have SEN. Parents will have real choice over their child’s The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health education and the opportunity for direct control over (Anne Milton): I regret that the written answer given support for their family. We propose: to the hon. Member for Gravesham (Mr Holloway) on 11 February 2011, Official Report, column 477W, was local authorities and other services will set out a local offer of all services available to support children who are disabled partly incorrect. or who have SEN and their families. This easy-to-understand Having given further consideration to the issue raised, information for parents will set out what is normally available I realise that the answer provided did not make it clear in schools to help children with lower-level SEN, as well as that while the protections provided to “employees”, the options available to support families who need additional under the Public Interest Disclosure Act 1998 (PIDA), help to care for their child; and do not apply to general practitioners (GPs) who provide the option of a personal budget by 2014 for all families with primary medical services as independent contractors children with a statement of SEN or a new “Education, engaged under general medical services (GMS) contracts Health and Care Plan”, many of whom will have complex for services by local primary care trusts (PCTs), there support needs. Key workers will be trained to advise families are certain other protections under PIDA which do and help them navigate the range of help available across apply. health, education and social care. PIDA, which is inserted into the Employment Rights To transfer power to professionals on the front line Act 1996 (ERA), is primarily designed to protect individuals and to local communities we will: strip away unnecessary who raise certain whistleblowing concerns (as defined bureaucracy so that professionals can innovate and use in PIDA) relating to their work or workplace from their judgment; establish a clearer system so that suffering a detriment as a result of speaking out. This professionals from different services and the voluntary legislation has two layers of protection. and community sector can work together; and give The first is for those who are “employees” of a parents and communities much more influence over particular organisation, who are protected from dismissal local services. We propose to: as well as other detrimental treatment such as being overlooked for promotion, denied training or a bonus. The give parents a real choice of school, either a mainstream or second is for “workers”, which is defined in section 230(3) special school. We propose to strengthen parental choice by ERA, and includes those who work under a contract to improving the range and diversity of schools from which parents can choose, making sure they are aware of the personally perform work where their status is not that options available to them and by changing statutory guidance of client or customer. They have a more limited level of for local authorities. Parents of children with statements of protection of not being subject to a detriment but they SEN will be able to express a preference for any state-funded do not have unfair dismissal rights. school—including special schools. Academies and free schools— Generally, “workers” would not include self-employed and have their preference met unless it would not meet the individuals such as self-employed doctors. However, for needs of the child, be incompatible with the efficient education the purpose of whistleblowing, PIDA has widened the of other children, or be an inefficient use of resources. We will also prevent the unnecessary closure of special schools definition of “worker” specifically to include other by giving parents and community groups the power to take individuals. Section 43K(ba) ERA, includes a person them over; and who “works or worked as a person performing services under a introduce greater independence to the assessment of children’s contract entered into by him with a Primary Care Trust under needs, testing how the voluntary and community sector section 84...of the National Health Service Act 2006”. could co-ordinate assessment and input from across education, Section 84 of the National Health Service Act 2006 health and social care as part of our proposals to move to a single assessment process and “Education, Health and Care relates to GMS contracts with GPs, and accordingly Plan”. GPs who enter into such contracts with PCTs will be deemed to be “workers” for the purposes of PIDA. Next steps Therefore if a GP raises a concern in the public interest (that falls within the PIDA criteria), relating to The Green Paper marks an important milestone in their GMS contract to the PCT with which they have the development of the Government’s approach to the contract, this would be a protected disclosure. They supporting children and young people with SEN or would have a right to bring a claim under PIDA if they who are disabled and their families. This marks the start should suffer a detriment as a result. of a four-month consultation period on our proposals. While the Government’s priority since May 2010 has Central Government cannot achieve this ambitious been to raise awareness for NHS employees about their programme of reform through directing and managing rights and protections and to ensure that staff have a change itself. The proposals we set out are for practical contractual right to raise concerns, the hon. Member testing in local areas. From September 2011, local for Gravesham has raised an important point about pathfinders will help demonstrate the best way to achieve awareness of existing protection for GPs. our key reforms. We will also be working across Government and with our local and national partners to set out Tobacco Control Plan (England) detailed plans by the end of the year. Copies of the Green Paper “Support and aspiration: The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Andrew Lansley): a new approach to special educational needs and disability” The Government are today publishing “Healthy Lives, will be placed in the House Libraries. Healthy People: A Tobacco Control Plan for England”. 67WS Written Ministerial Statements9 MARCH 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 68WS

The recently published “Healthy Lives, Healthy People” We know that teenagers are susceptible to experimenting White Paper sets out the coalition Government’s even when there is clear evidence of the dangers. We determination to improve the health of the nation and believe that eye-catching displays encourage young people to improve the health of the poorest, fastest. The White to try smoking. They also undermine quit attempts by Paper recognises that reducing smoking rates represents adults by tempting them to make impulse buys of a huge opportunity for public health, and makes tobacco. commitments to publish a number of follow-on documents This is why we are implementing legislation to end on how we will improve public health in specific areas. tobacco displays in shops. This will help to change The tobacco control plan is the first of these. perceptions of the social norms around smoking, especially Smoking remains one of our most significant public by young people who are often the target of tobacco health challenges, and causes over 80,000 premature promotion. deaths in England each year. While rates of smoking While maintaining the expected public health gains, have continued to decline over the past decades, 21% of we will amend the display regulations to mitigate burdens adults in England still smoke. Smoking prevalence has on business. The growth review announced by the fallen little since 2007 and we need renewed action to Chancellor of the Exchequer in November 2010 aims to drive smoking rates down further. reduce the regulatory burden on small and medium Smoking has a devastating impact on health and enterprises and micro businesses. In keeping with this well-being in our communities and we must keep up the approach, we will make the legislation more practical momentum to reduce the health harms of tobacco use. by: Smoking contributes significantly to health inequalities giving retailers longer to prepare by delaying commencement and is the single biggest cause of inequalities in death until 6 April 2012 for large shops and 6 April 2015 for small rates between the richest and poorest in our communities. shops; Localism will be at the heart of the Government’s increasing the size of temporary displays allowed when new radical approach to the delivery of public health serving customers and re-stocking (from 0.75 square metres services, with directors of public health, jointly appointed to 1.5 square metres); and by local authorities, to be the strategic leaders for adding to the circumstances in which such displays can evidence-based public health. They will also lead action occur, for example, to carry out stock-taking and other activities necessary in running a business. in their local communities to reduce health inequalities. In this important area, I am interested in any measure The tobacco control plan sets out how comprehensive with the potential to promote positive social norms tobacco control will be delivered over the next five years around tobacco use and to diminish the impact of within the new public health system, and includes anything which promotes tobacco use, especially as this confirmation of our intentions for ending tobacco displays affects young people. We must continue to try new in shops and for further work to explore the plain approaches, particularly those that may encourage packaging of tobacco products. The plan includes specific behaviour change. We will, therefore, explore whether ambitions to reduce smoking prevalence by the end of the introduction of plain packaging would bring additional 2015: public health benefits. The Government have an open to 18.5% or less among adults (from a baseline of 21.2%); mind on this and we want to hear what people think. to 12% or less among 15-year-olds (from a baseline of 15%); The tobacco control plan confirms a commitment to and consult by the end of this year on options to reduce the to 11% or less among pregnant mothers (from a baseline of promotional impact of tobacco packaging. To do this 14%). we must review the evidence and draw up an impact These ambitions represent faster reductions in smoking assessment on the costs and additional public health rates in these groups in the next five years than we have benefits of policy options. We will, as well, explore the seen in the past five years. competition, trade and legal implications, and the likely The plan is built around the six strands of comprehensive impact on the illicit tobacco market of options around tobacco control that are recognised internationally: tobacco packaging. While similar measures are currently being considered actively by a number of Governments stopping the promotion of tobacco; around the world, we must be sure about the impacts of making tobacco less affordable; policy options in the legal and trading circumstances of effective regulation of tobacco products; tobacco control in this country. Only after this work, helping tobacco users to quit; and gathering views and evidence from public consultation, reducing exposure to second-hand smoke; and will we be in a position to know whether, or how, to proceed. effective communications for tobacco control. Take-up of smoking by young people is a particular An academic review “The Impact of Smokefree concern. Smoking is an addiction largely taken up in Legislation in England: Evidence Review” has been childhood and adolescence, and so it is crucial to reduce published today. the number of young people taking up smoking in the The Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory first place. Nicotine is extremely addictive and young Authority (MHRA) has also published today the outcome people can develop dependence on tobacco very rapidly. of the consultation on the regulation of nicotine-containing Each year in England an estimated 320,000 children products. The MHRA will co-ordinate a period of under 16 first try smoking and the majority of adult further scientific and market research to inform decisions smokers were smoking regularly before they turned about the regulation of nicotine-containing products. 18 years of age. The plan recognises that we must do as All documents have been placed in the Library. Copies much as we can to stop the recruitment of new young are available to hon. Members from the Vote Office and smokers. to noble Lords from the Printed Paper Office. 69WS Written Ministerial Statements9 MARCH 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 70WS

TRANSPORT four years, aimed at encouraging sustainable transport solutions, including community transport, that will create economic growth and cut carbon. Public transport remains a key element in the Supporting Community Transport sustainability and independence of rural communities: offering young people access to education and employment opportunities, linking customers to shops and services, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport and providing a lifeline to those without access to a car. (Norman Baker): Today I am announcing £10 million of Where commercial bus services are not viable, community new funding to be distributed to rural local transport transport can play a valuable role in preventing isolation. authorities to kick-start the development of community I therefore strongly encourage local authorities to work transport services in their area. in partnership with operators and local communities to In addition, we have formed a partnership with the examine how more flexible services might be provided. Community Transport Association to provide each of Services such as dial-a-ride can, in some areas, be the 76 rural local authorities in England with £2,600-worth more efficient, effective and sustainable in the long of consultancy advice on how to establish, manage and term. I know that there are already many good examples make sustainable community transport operations within of community groups and local authorities working their area. There is the option for local authorities to together to deliver innovative solutions to rural transport supplement this with their own funds to receive further needs and this is something we wish to see increased. services. Today’s package of support for community transport This additional funding complements our recently represents an important opportunity to invest in the announced local sustainable transport fund, which allows future to provide more sustainable transport for local local authorities to bid for a share of £560 million over communities.

5P Petitions9 MARCH 2011 Petitions 6P

the peace and a registered child minder it would be Petition surprising if he was rejected as a carer. The Petitioner also believes that the reason they took her younger Wednesday 9 March 2011 daughter into care and left her older daughter was because the older daughter was of a darker colour and the objective was to satisfy adoption targets rather than PRESENTED PETITION protect her younger daughter. The younger daughter Petition presented to the House but not read on the Floor was, therefore, more “adoptable”. Child Protection The family believe that the medical evidence in this case should be reviewed as the courts decisions rely on The Petition of Jackie Goddard, information that has now been shown to be unreliable. Declares that the Petitioner’s daughter T was removed The family also believes that this case demonstrates from her care because of a burn and a number of incidents that Manchester Children’s Services have acted with a where her skin was inflamed. Initially the Petitioner priority of achieving an adoption rather than a priority could not explain the cause of these. However, it is now of protecting children. known that the burn was caused by the control panel on The Petitioner therefore requests that the House of a heater which is now accepted by the manufacturers Commons urges the Government to take steps to reprioritise as being faulty. The Petitioner also received a new suite the child protection system to concentrate on protecting just before the inflammations were recognized. The children and that the House of Commons institute a lesions are also similar to those caused by Di-Methyl parliamentary inquiry into this case and the failure of Fumerate, however, no test has been allowed to identify the checks and balances involved. whether T exhibits such an allergic reaction. When the Petitioner’s daughter was removed she was And the Petitioner remains, etc.—[Presented by Chris told her daughter would be going into foster care. Her Ruane.] father raised concerns that given that he was a justice of [P000899]

1061W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1062W Written Answers to Future Jobs Fund: Wales Owen Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales Questions what assessment her Department has (a) made and (b) commissioned from other Departments of the performance of the Future Jobs Fund in Wales. [44649] Wednesday 9 March 2011 Mr David Jones: Policy on the Future Jobs Fund is a matter for the Department for Work and Pensions. The coalition Government assessed that the £1 billion fund, SCOTLAND which was always designed to be a temporary measure, was an expensive short-term fix to get young people off Human Trafficking the benefits register by creating temporary short-term jobs. Grants do not include any incentives to move people into permanent jobs. 15. Mr Bone: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what recent discussions he has had with the This Government have decided to focus instead on First Minister on levels of cross-border human trafficking. getting people back into permanent employment rather [44089] than providing temporary, public-funded work placements, by investing instead in long-term sustainable apprenticeship David Mundell: The UK Government continue to opportunities across all sectors. work closely with the Scottish Government on this tissue. The Scottish Government are involved in ongoing Housing Benefit: Wales work to combat human trafficking issues across the United Kingdom, through the Government’s Inter- Owen Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales Departmental Ministerial Group. what assessment her Department has (a) made and (b) commissioned from other Departments on the Bank Lending effect on recipients in Wales of changes to housing benefit. [44648] Mr David Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what recent assessment he has made of levels Mr David Jones: The Secretary of State for Wales has of bank lending to small and medium-sized businesses raised with the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions the issue of the estimated impact on recipients in Wales in Scotland; and if he will make a statement. [44088] of the range of measures included in the Welfare Reform Michael Moore: The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Bill. My Department has also discussed with the my right hon. Friend the Member for Tatton (Mr Osborne), Department for Work and Pensions the specific changes told the House that the coalition Government have to housing benefit coming into effect in April 2011. agreed that the major banks will increase lending to Specific information about the impact of changes to small and medium-sized businesses by £10 billion this housing benefit as a result of the Welfare Reform Bill is year. This deal could unlock additional lending of around available in the impact assessments produced for the £800 million for small businesses in Scotland. Bill. Where estimates are available this includes the estimated number of claimants in Wales affected. The impact assessments are available at the following link: http://www.dwp.gov.uk/policy/welfare-reform/legislation-and- WALES key-documents/welfare-reform-bill-2011/ Information on the estimated impact in Wales of changes to the local housing allowance coming into Departmental Procurement effect in April 2011 is also available in the impact assessments available at the following link: Stephen Barclay: To ask the Secretary of State for http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/lha-impact-nov10.pdf Wales how many procurement projects with a monetary value greater than (a) £10 million, (b) £50 million and (c) £100 million her Department was engaged upon in Unemployment: Young People the latest period for which figures are available. [45692] Owen Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales Mr David Jones: None. what assessment her Department has (a) made and (b) commissioned from other Departments on trends Stephen Barclay: To ask the Secretary of State for in the level of youth unemployment in Wales. [44647] Wales which procurement projects engaged upon by her Department had a designated senior responsible owner Mr David Jones: Statistics on the labour market in the latest period for which figures are available; and situation in Wales are published monthly by the Office on what date they were appointed in each such case. for National Statistics. The latest data for January 2011 [45693] show there are 24,600 young people aged 18 to 24 claiming jobseekers allowance in Wales. This is a fall of Mr David Jones: The Wales Office obtains its services 3,600 or 12.6% compared to a year ago. By comparison, through the Ministry of Justice and consequently does youth unemployment levels in Wales increased by around not undertake procurement projects. 30% from Q2 1997 to Q2 2010. 1063W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1064W

This Government remain extremely concerned about Mr Paterson: Northern Ireland Ministers, the Minister youth unemployment and are determined to deal with of State, Northern Ireland Office, the right hon. Member their legacy in Wales. Our approach is to ensure that for East Devon (Mr Swire) and I met with the Exchequer young unemployed people get the personalised help Secretary to the Treasury, the hon. Member for South they need to find permanent jobs. As part of our reform West Hertfordshire (Mr Gauke), last month where these of the welfare system we are introducing a number of matters were discussed. measures to support young people to find employment. Jobcentre Plus local offices are being given more control to allow them to deliver a more personalised service in a way that is more responsive to local needs. Under the JUSTICE Work Programme, providers will be free to design support based on the needs of individuals and target the right support at the right time. Both Jobcentre Plus and Work Departmental Expenditure Programme providers will work with local public, private, and third sector organisations where this delivers the Stephen Barclay: To ask the Secretary of State for best job outcomes for individuals. Justice what expenditure (a) his Department and (b) each public body sponsored by his Department incurred on engaging external audit services in each of the last three years; and to which service providers such payments LEADER OF THE HOUSE were made in each year. [43751]

Private Members’ Bills Mr Kenneth Clarke: All external audit services are provided by the National Audit Office, except where Caroline Lucas: To ask the Leader of the House what indicated otherwise. plans he has to announce proposed dates of Fridays The following information is from the consolidated1 after 17 June 2011 on which Private Members’ Bills resource accounts for the MoJ and specified Executive may have precedence; and if he will make a statement. agencies and associated offices: [44686] £ Sir George Young: The Government will bring forward 2009-10 2008-09 2007-08 a motion to increase the number of sitting Fridays in due course. MoJ 1,557,000 1,796,000 1,411,000

Non-departmental public bodies NORTHERN IRELAND £ Public body 2009-10 2008-09 2007-08

Departmental Billing Criminal 27,000 21,000 16,000 Cases Review Stewart Hosie: To ask the Secretary of State for Commission Northern Ireland what proportion of invoices from Criminal 82,000 81,000 73,000 suppliers his Department paid within 10 days of receipt Injuries Compensation in January and February 2011. [45097] Authority HM Prison 3— 3— 190,000 Mr Paterson: The Northern Ireland Office paid 98% Service in January 2011 and 99% in February 2011 of undisputed Judicial 38,000 37,000 38,000 invoices to suppliers within 10 days of receipt. Appointments Commission Departmental Leaseback Arrangements Legal Services 21,000 15,000 4— Board Stewart Hosie: To ask the Secretary of State for Legal Services 353,000 250,000 157,000 Northern Ireland what assets his Department has sold Commission Offices of 3— 3— 3— and leased back over the last 12 months; what the sale Court Funds price was of each asset so sold; and what estimate he Office of the 33,500 29,500 24,000 has made of the cost to the public purse of leasing back Information each such asset over the period of the lease. [45096] Commissioner Office of the 11,500 11,000 10,500 Mr Paterson: The Northern Ireland Office has sold Legal Services no assets for leaseback over the last 12 months. Ombudsman Office for 28.000 5— 5— Fuels: Northern Ireland Legal Complaints Official 3— 3— 3— Lady Hermon: To ask the Secretary of State for Solicitor and Northern Ireland what recent discussions he has had Public Trustee with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on (a) the cost Parole Board 21,000 20,500 17,000 of fuel in Northern Ireland and (b) the introduction of Probation 61,530,000 61,520,000 61,480,000 a fuel price stabiliser. [44560] Service2 1065W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1066W

Non-departmental public bodies £ £ NDPB Procurement cost Outsourcing cost Public body 2009-10 2008-09 2007-08 Criminal Cases Review 00 Youth Justice 42,000 42,000 42,000 Commission Board for 2 2 England and Criminal Injuries 0 0 Wales Compensation Authority 1 Her Majesty’s Courts Service, the Tribunals Service, the Office of the Public Guardian (formerly the Public Guardian’s Office) and the Information 20,294 0 National Offender Management Service, Court Funds Office, Commissioner’s Office Official Solicitor and Public Trustee, Office of the Legal Services Judicial Appointments 00 Complaints Commissioner, HM Inspectorate of Courts Commission Administration, Inspectorate of Prisons, Inspectorate of Probation, Legal Services Board 0 0 Assessor for Compensation for Miscarriages of Justice, Legal Services 781,658 0 Administrative Justice and Tribunals Council, Office of the Judge Commission Advocate General, Judicial Appointments and Conduct Ombudsman, Office for Judicial Complaints, Directorate of Judicial Office for Legal 00 Offices for England and Wales, the Boundary Commission and the Complaints Law Commission. Parole Board 0 0 2 There are 42 Probation Boards and Trusts across England and Youth Justice Board 88,000 0 Wales. Their figures have been combined. 3 Part of the consolidated accounts. 4 Did not exist. 5 Agency did not exist. Other Departments the Secretary of State and Lord 6 For 2009-10 the following audit services were used by the Chancellor has jurisdiction over: Probation Boards/Trusts: The Audit Commission audited 29 Probation Boards/Trusts £ Welsh Audit Office audited four Probation Boards/Trusts NDPB Procurement cost Outsourcing cost Deloitte audited three Probation Boards/Trusts KPMG audited three Probation Boards/Trusts The Land Registry 1,048,633 255,614 PricewaterhouseCoopers audited three Probation Boards/Trusts The National 191,783 0 For 2008-09 the following audit services were used by the Probation Archives Boards/Trusts: 1 Audit Commission: 29 Probation Boards/Trusts The executive agencies are Her Majesty’s Courts Service, the Deloitte: Three Probation Boards/Trusts Tribunals Service, the Office of the Public Guardian and the KPMG: Three Probation Boards/Trusts National Offender Management Service. 2 PricewaterhouseCoopers: Three Probation Boards/Trusts CICA does not have a procurement department. Two staff have Welsh Audit Office: Four Probation Boards/Trusts procurement responsibilities as part of their overall job descriptions. One Band B is expected to give approximately 20% of their time to The data on audit services used by the Probation procurement related tasks, one Band D is expected to give approximately 10% of their time to procurement related tasks. Boards/Trusts in 2007-08 is not held centrally and would Note: incur disproportionate costs to gather from local offices. The Cabinet Office lists The National Archives and The Land The cost of external and internal audits is included in Registry as being in the MoJ—they are separate organisations with the annual accounts of each Government Department their own funding arrangements. and associated body.

Departmental Procurement Legal Aid Scheme: Bolton

Yasmin Qureshi: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many people in (a) Bolton South East constituency what the cost to the public purse was of the (a) procurement and (b) Bolton received legal aid in each of the last five and (b) outsourcing function of (i) his Department, (ii) years. [44846] other Departments in respect of which his Department manages those functions and (iii) each (A) agency and (B) non-departmental public body for which he is Mr Djanogly: The Legal Services Commission (LSC) responsible in the last financial year for which figures is responsible for administering the legal aid scheme are available. [43965] in England and Wales. The LSC does not record the number of people who receive legal aid, but instead records the number of ‘acts of assistance’. One individual Mr Kenneth Clarke: The Cabinet Office has published may receive a number of separate acts of assistance, procurement costs of all Government Departments for and one act of assistance can help more than one 2009-10 at: person. http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/resource-library/back-office- The tables show the volumes of legal aid granted in benchmark-information-200910 each of the last five years based on legal aid providers MoJ HQ and its executive agencies1 have a shared with postcodes falling within (a) Bolton South East services procurement function. Any outsourcing for constituency and (b) the local authority area of Bolton. MoJ HQ and the executive agencies would be handled The figures do not include legal aid received via by the procurement team. In the financial year 2009-10, telephone advice, Community Legal Advice Centres, the procurement function (staff and operating costs) for the Housing Possession Court Duty Scheme, telephone MoJ and its executive agencies cost £13.3 million. triage, or family mediation. These figures are not available The NDPBs’ costs were as follows: on a regional basis. 1067W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1068W

Bolton South East constituency—Legal aid volumes Departments and (ii) the (A) agency and (B) other Thousand non-ministerial departments for which he is responsible 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 in the last financial year for which figures are available. [43964] Civil 0.82 0.85 0.88 0.90 0.93 Representation certificates issued The Solicitor-General: Information on the procurement Legal Help New 2.32 3.51 3.84 4.18 4.52 function costs for the Law Officers’ Departments in the Matter Starts in last full financial year are contained in the following Civil and table. Immigration Crime Lower claim 7.28 7.09 6.48 6.79 6.26 Recorded procurement function volumes Department costs 2009-10 (£) Crime Higher case 0.81 0.83 0.83 0.89 0.79 volumes Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) 1692,087 Total 11.23 12.29 12.05 12.76 12.50 Serious Fraud Office (SFO) 125,903 Treasury Solicitors Department 102,430 Bolton—Legal aid volumes (TSol)2 Thousand National Fraud Authority 4,857 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 1 Data covers cost of the CPS central procurement team. Some minor procurement activity is carried out at local offices, but the associated Civil 0.92 0.97 0.97 0.98 1.03 costs could only be obtained at a disproportionate cost. Representation 2 The procurement section at TSol provides procurement/outsourcing certificates issued services to TSol, AGO and HMCPSI. Neither AGO nor HMCPSI Legal Help New 2.57 3.86 4.11 4.42 4.85 have dedicated procurement/outsourcing personnel. Matter Starts in Civil and None of the Law Officers’ Departments currently Immigration operate any outsourcing function for procurement. Crime Lower claim 7.46 7.27 6.67 6.95 6.41 volumes Departmental Redundancy Crime Higher case 0.83 0.86 0.86 0.92 0.81 volumes Total 11.77 12.96 12.60 13.26 13.10 Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Attorney-General how much the Crown Prosecution Service has spent in 2010-11 to date on redundancy costs. [44543]

ATTORNEY-GENERAL The Solicitor-General: In the nine months to December 2010, the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) has spent a Crown Prosecution Service: Manpower total of £2.5 million on the voluntary early retirement and voluntary early severance costs of staff leaving the Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Attorney-General Department in 2010-11. The CPS has followed a policy (1) how many people the Crown Prosecution Service of voluntary early release in achieving staff reductions. expects to employ (a) at the end of March 2011 and (b) at the end of each subsequent financial year in the Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Attorney-General comprehensive spending review period; [44763] (1) how many people the Crown Prosecution Service (2) how many people the Crown Prosecution Service expects to make redundant in each Crown Prosecution expects to employ as (a) prosecutors and (b) caseworkers area in 2010-11; and from what roles he expects staff to and administrators supporting frontline prosecutions at be made redundant; [44607] (i) the end of March 2011 and (ii) the end of each (2) how many people the Crown Prosecution Service subsequent financial year in the comprehensive spending has made redundant in each Crown Prosecution review period; [44764] Service area in 2010-11 to date; and from what roles (3) how many prosecutors the Crown Prosecution staff have been made redundant. [44766] Service expects to employ who are (a) able to appear in the Crown court and higher courts and (b) able to The Solicitor-General: In 2010-11 a voluntary early present cases in magistrates court at (i) at the end of release (VER) scheme was launched for headquarters March 2011 and (ii) the end of each subsequent functions. It is anticipated that between 60 and 90 staff financial year in the comprehensive spending review will be released on voluntary terms by end of March 2011. period. [44765] An additional 30 people who were employed in a mixture of management and administrative roles have The Solicitor-General: The Crown Prosecution Service already left the Department earlier in the financial year (CPS) has not finalised its workforce plans for the on a voluntary basis. Three people have been released comprehensive spending review period. Each CPS group from east midlands, one from Yorkshire and Humberside, and division is currently undertaking a more detailed one from Wales and one from the south-east. The planning exercise which is expected to be completed in remaining 24 staff have been released from London May 2011. headquarters. Departmental Procurement Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Attorney-General Mr Raab: To ask the Attorney-General what the cost how many people the Crown Prosecution Service to the public purse was of the (a) procurement and expects to make (a) voluntarily and (b) compulsorily (b) outsourcing function of (i) the Law Officers’ redundant in 2010-11. [44608] 1069W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1070W

The Solicitor-General: The CPS expects between 90 Secretary of State for Justice and (c) the Law Society and 120 staff to leave the Department under a voluntary on the development of a full electronic case file system early release scheme this financial year. The CPS does by the Crown Prosecution Service; and if he will make not expect to make any compulsory redundancies in a statement. [44614] this period. The Solicitor-General: The Law Officers meet regularly Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Attorney-General with Ministers at the Home Office and the Ministry of how much funding the Crown Prosecution Service Justice, as well as the President of the Law Society to allocated to meet redundancy costs in 2010-11. [44609] discuss a range of issues. Methods of digital working, including the use of the The Solicitor-General: The Crown Prosecution Service electronic case file, are being developed and tested at a (CPS) has currently allocated £6 million to meet the number of sites across England and Wales. The Crown voluntary early release costs of staff leaving the department Prosecution Service (CPS) aims to make widespread use in 2011. The CPS has adhered to its policy of releasing of the electronic case file from April 2012 onwards. staff on a voluntary basis and intends to maintain this policy in 2010-11.

Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Attorney-General ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE (1) how many people the Crown Prosecution Service expects to make redundant in each Crown Prosecution area in each financial year from 2011-12 to 2014-15; Departmental Energy and from what roles staff are expected to be made redundant; [44610] Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for (2) how many people the Crown Prosecution Service Energy and Climate Change what plans he has to install expects to make (a) voluntarily and (b) compulsorily (a) solar panels or (b) renewable heat technologies on redundant in each financial year from 2011-12 to buildings occupied by his Department; and if he will 2014-15. [44611] make a statement. [45491]

The Solicitor-General: Initial planning indicates that Gregory Barker: The Department only has authority CPS will need to reduce staffing levels by 530 in 2011-12, over one building, 3 Whitehall Place in London. There 390 in 2012-13, 310 in 2013-14 and 220 in 2014-15 to are no current plans to install solar panels or renewable achieve the required workforce reductions for financial heat technologies on this site. However, we are keeping year 2014-15. The CPS is committed to avoiding this under review. compulsory redundancies, and these reductions will be achieved through not filling vacancies that arise through Departmental Food normal staff turnover and the application of voluntary early release schemes in the first three years of the Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy comprehensive spending review period. The CPS anticipates and Climate Change when he expects his Department that there will be reductions in all grades of staff to meet the Government’s commitment to source food that meets British or equivalent standards of production. Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Attorney-General [43321] how much funding has been allocated by the Crown Prosecution Service to meet redundancy costs in each Gregory Barker: It is a Government commitment to financial year from 2011-12 to 2014-15. [44612] ensure that food procured by Government Departments, and eventually the whole public sector, meets British The Solicitor-General: The Crown Prosecution Service standards of production wherever this can be achieved (CPS) has allocated £14 million to meet the voluntary without increasing overall costs. early release costs of staff in 2011-12. DECC’s catering services are provided through the Decisions on the detailed allocation of budgets for Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs the years beyond 2011-12 have yet to be taken. For (DEFRA). DEFRA are introducing Government Buying financial planning purposes the current highest estimate Standards (GBS) for food and catering, which will be for the costs of early departure for the CPS is £40 million mandatory for central Government Departments and resource over the spending review period. The figure executive agencies and promoted to the wider public could reduce significantly if additional savings are achieved sector. The external review of the proposed GBS criteria in other areas of expenditure or if staff turnover is ended on 24 January and DEFRA are taking account higher than forecast. of all the responses before we finalise the standards this month. Electronic Case Files DEFRA also published new guidance in January to help ensure that Government Departments and executive Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Attorney-General agencies source food meeting British or equivalent standards (1) what recent progress has been made by the Crown of production, subject to no overall increase in costs. Prosecution Service in developing a full electronic case file system; and when he expects full electronic case Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for files to be fully operational; [44613] Energy and Climate Change what method his Department (2) what recent discussions he has had with (a) the uses to calculate food miles incurred by food sold in its Secretary of State for the Home Department, (b) the refreshment outlets. [45487] 1071W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1072W

Gregory Barker: The Department does not calculate Impact of the preferred electricity food miles incurred by food sold by the catering service market reform package on providers on the DECC estate. However, our caterers, industrial electricity prices BaxterStorey, do offer a sustainable catering service, (percentage) with a focus on fresh, local and seasonal produce. All meat, eggs and milk used are produced in the UK, and 2021-25 7 the frequency of deliveries is minimised 2026-30 -5 Departmental Marketing Government are aware of industry concerns about competitiveness impacts from climate change and energy policies, particularly for those industries that use the Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for most energy. This is why BIS and DECC are working Energy and Climate Change how many (a) press officers, together on the Energy Intensive Industry Strategy (b) marketing officers, (c) speech writers, (d) website which aims to maximise greenhouse gas reductions in managers and (e) other communications and marketing these sectors while ensuring their future competitiveness. staff his Department directly employs. [45522] The strategy will include analysis of the estimated energy price and bill impacts for illustrative energy intensive Gregory Barker: As at 8 March 2011, DECC employed users. Findings of this analysis will be published in six press officers, five marketing officers, two speechwriters, spring. four website managers and five other members of the Government Communications Network working across Electricity Generation: Northern Ireland a range of disciplines. Departmental Travel Naomi Long: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what recent discussions he has had Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for with Ministers in the Northern Ireland Executive on Energy and Climate Change what steps his Department electricity market reform. [44773] takes to encourage carbon off-setting for air travel undertaken by its Ministers and officials; and what Charles Hendry: The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change and DECC Ministers have regular scheme it uses. [45489] meetings with Ministers in the devolved Administration Gregory Barker: The Department offsets all of its of Northern Ireland on a variety of topics. ministerial and official air travel through the Government The Electricity Market Reform team within DECC Carbon Offsetting Facility (GCOF). has had a number of contacts with Northern Ireland Information on GCOF can be found on the DECC officials (from DETI-NI and the Northern Ireland utilities website: regulator) and has presented and fielded questions at a stakeholder event arranged by DETI on 24 February http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/what_we_do/lc_uk/ 2011 in Belfast. co2_offsetting/gov_offsetting/gov_offsetling.aspx Electricity Generation Energy: Housing

Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what assessment he has Energy and Climate Change what estimate he has made made of the likely effects on industrial electricity prices of the (a) minimum and (b) maximum rate of interest of his proposals for electricity market reform; and if he that will be set on Green Deal finance loans. [44878] will make a statement. [45060] Gregory Barker [holding answer 7 March 2011]: It is Charles Hendry: On 16 December, Government launched not possible to make a reliable estimate of the likely consultations on a package of options for reforming the commercial interest rate which will be offered to Green electricity market. The preferred package is to have a Deal customers at this stage. We are working with the ‘contract for difference’ model for supporting low-carbon finance industry to ensure that the design of the scheme generation in combination with a targeted capacity is robust enough to secure the most efficient types of mechanism, carbon price support and an emissions financing, which in turn, will drive down the cost. The performance standard. Due to the high upfront costs Green Deal is a market mechanism and therefore it is and low running costs nature of most low carbon not appropriate for government to dictate the interest generating plant, the preferred package may increase rate. We may however, set out permissible financial business electricity prices and bills in the near term, but terms in secondary legislation to ensure consumer from the mid 2020s onwards prices are expected to be protection, and will be considering whether these should lower than they otherwise would be. Please see following place controls on the structure of interest rates which table. can be applied to Green Deal plans. In addition, we are working to ensure a competitive Impact of the preferred electricity Green Deal market—this should put downward pressure market reform package on on prices and leave little room for profiteering. industrial electricity prices (percentage) Energy: Private Rented Housing

2010 0 2011-15 1 Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what consideration he has 2016-20 3 given to the merits of (a) producing a timetable 1073W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1074W introducing minimum energy efficiency standards in As a first step, the Government published the details the private rented sector above F or G levels from 2016 of 345 senior officials in departments, agencies and and (b) the introduction of a more stringent non-departmental public bodies in post at 31 March enforcement regime with higher financial penalties. 2010 whose rate of pay was £150,000 or more. Publication [44627] of name, job title and base salary details was then extended to some lower levels of the senior civil service Gregory Barker: The powers we are proposing in the (SCS) as part of the organograms that were published Energy Bill will require domestic landlords to honour last October. reasonable requests from their tenants for energy efficiency Although individualised salary details for the most improvements, and will require local authorities to insist junior level of the SCS (Pay Bands 1 and 1A) were not that landlords improve the worst performing homes. released, the numbers and grades of staff in each of Our intention is that this local authority enforcement their teams and the total salary costs of that team were would be targeted at F and G properties from 2015, if published. Organograms will next be updated by the we do not see voluntarily improvement under the Green end of May to show structures as at 31 March 2011. Deal. We are not currently pursuing a minimum energy Good progress is being made across the civil service efficiency standard in the private rented sector. and beyond in improving transparency of how Government Under these plans, non-compliant landlords could be works and uses its resources. We are now in a period of fined up to £5,000. This is in line with the current fine consolidating and embedding transparency processes local authorities can place on landlords who rent out into business as usual. We are always looking to go hazardous sub standard property (under the Housing further and we will continue over the coming months to Health and Safety Rating System). review, and where necessary improve, the quality and extent of data being released. Feed-in Tariffs Social Enterprises: Cooperatives Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change how much his Department Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for has spent on feed-in tariff payments to date; and how Energy and Climate Change what proportion of goods much it expects to spend in the first year of the scheme’s and services supplied directly to his Department were operation. [43347] sourced from (a) social enterprises, (b) mutuals and (c) co-operatives in the latest period for which figures Gregory Barker: This information is not currently are available. [45492] available in the form requested. However, Ofgem has published data from the quarterly levelisation process Gregory Barker: This information cannot be identified which show a total of £2,686,712.55 paid for all technologies from the Department’s payment records. up to 30 September 2010. Levelisation data can be viewed at: Solar Photovoltaic Sector: Brighton www.ofgem.gov.uk/Sustainability/Environment/fits/ Levelisation/Pages/Levelisation.aspx Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Levelisation data for 1 October to 31 December 2010 Energy and Climate Change what estimate he has made will be made available on Ofgem’s website soon. of the size of the solar photovoltaic market in (a) the Details of the expected costs of the feed-in tariffs Brighton and Hove area, (b) East and West Sussex and (FITs) scheme were published under the previous (c) the UK; what estimate he has made of the proportion Administration in February 2010. However, details on of the global market the UK market represents; and if level of projections of all eligible technologies under the he will make a statement. [43508] scheme were sent to all electricity suppliers at the start of the scheme. This information was also provided in Gregory Barker: The Department does not have estimates response to specific requests and used in meetings with for the size of the solar PV market for the areas requested. stakeholders. Under the low carbon buildings programme, 1,562 grants A copy of the projections can be found in the Libraries were provided in south-east England for solar PV of the House. technology, of which, 283 were in East and West Sussex. Of these, 23 were in Brighton. Pay While the solar PV market in the UK is growing it is remains relatively small in comparison to the global size Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for of the market. Energy and Climate Change if he will take steps to ensure that his published departmental organisational Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for chart includes the names and responsibilities of all staff Energy and Climate Change what assessment he has paid over £58,200 per annum in his Department and in made of the potential effect of his Department’s review the non-departmental public bodies for which he is of feed-in tariffs on plans for the installation of solar responsible. [43541] panels on publicly-owned buildings; and whether he has received representations on the matter from the Gregory Barker: The coalition Government are Leader of Brighton and Hove city council. [43509] committed to improving transparency and the Coalition programme includes commitments to publish salary Gregory Barker: The full range of impacts of changes information for the most senior civil servants and to that are proposed from the review of feed-in tariffs publish organograms for the entire organisation. (FITs) will be subject to an impact assessment. I am 1075W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1076W not aware of any representations received by the Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Secretary of State from the Leader of Brighton and and Climate Change what steps his Department has Hove council. taken to support the big society initiative. [42645] Gregory Barker: The big society is more than a collection Solar Power: Feed-in Tariffs of policies—it is an approach which is at the heart of the Government’s reforms across all policy areas with Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State the aim of localising power and opening up public for Energy and Climate Change whether the level of services and encouraging social action. Each department each tariff for solar photovoltaics is to be considered has a range of specific programmes which will contribute under the fast-track review announced on 7 February to growing the Big Society. These policies are coordinated 2011. [43727] across Government through meetings at official and ministerial level, including the Informal Ministerial Group Gregory Barker: On 7 February 2011, the Secretary on the Big Society and Localism, which shares ideas of State announced the comprehensive review of the and supports progress on cross cutting-issues relating to feed-in tariffs (FITs) scheme. That review will include the Big Society. fast-track consideration of solar photovoltaics (PV) DECC has several programmes aimed at achieving installations over 50kW. the Big Society goals of catalysing social action, The fast-track consultation will be launched later this decentralising power and opening up public services. month. These include: the Low Carbon Communities Challenge—a two year action- Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for research programme for testing localised, community-led models Energy and Climate Change how many representations for delivering carbon savings, reducing energy consumption, his Department has received on the fast-track review of and fostering social cohesion; feed-in tariffs for large scale solar photovoltaics. [43728] the community energy online web portal (launched late 2010)—the Portal provides helpful tools and information to enable communities and others to develop local community based energy projects; Gregory Barker: The Department has received several enabling local authorities to sell electricity—a change in legislation representations on the fast track review of feed-in tariffs (effective from 18 August 2010) was made to allow local for large scale solar photovoltaics. Detailed information authorities to sell electricity they generate themselves from on these representations will be provided as part of the renewable sources; and consultation on this issue. the Green Deal—from late 2012 this will enable private companies, local authorities and civil society organisations to offer energy Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy efficiency improvements to households, communities and businesses and Climate Change what assessment he has made of at no upfront cost. the contribution of small-scale photovoltaic projects to community projects; if he will exclude such projects from the scope of his review of feed-in tariffs; and if he WORK AND PENSIONS will make a statement. [43793] Disability Living Allowance: Children

Charles Hendry: The Department of Energy and Gordon Birtwistle: To ask the Secretary of State for Climate Change is undertaking analysis of all aspects Work and Pensions how parents of a disabled child will of feed-in tariffs as part of the first comprehensive be able to acquire the aids and adaptations necessary review of the scheme which commenced on 7 February. for the well-being of that child under his proposed Detailed proposals on the fast-track element of the reforms to disability living allowance. [43282] review are being worked up and we intend to publish them for consultation later this month. Maria Miller: Parents of disabled children may receive additional support for their child, including aids and Third Sector adaptations, from a variety of sources including the health, social care and education systems. If the child receives disability living allowance, the parent may choose Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy to use the benefit to purchase additional items. DLA and Climate Change what account he has taken of the will be replaced by personal independence payment Compact between the Government and Civil Society in from 2013, but it will remain a non-means-tested, non- policy development. [42604] taxable cash benefit which can be spent according to the priorities of the individual. Gregory Barker: The Compact between this coalition When personal independence payment is introduced Government and civil society organisations was agreed from 2013 the reforms will initially apply to the working-age and launched on 16 December 2010. It was accompanied caseload only. We want to use the experience of reassessing by guidance on accountability and transparency for the the working-age caseload to inform any future decisions first time, ensuring that Government Departments as on arrangements for children. well as civil society organisations are clear about the level of commitment and the implications for not following Electoral Reform Services the Compact. The Cabinet Office considers policy that is relevant to civil society organisations from a Compact Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for perspective, ensuring that it is adhered to, and where it Work and Pensions what the monetary value was of is not possible for whatever reason, that this is explained contracts his Department placed with Electoral to the sector in an open and transparent manner. Reform Services Ltd in each year since 2005. [44228] 1077W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1078W

Chris Grayling: DWP has not had any expenditure Recipients of jobseeker’s allowance who take part in with Electoral Reform Services from 2005 to date. part-time training will continue to receive jobseeker’s allowance provided they continue to meet the full labour- Employment Schemes market requirements and are willing to give up the course if a job opportunity is offered. Courses funded by the Skills Funding Agency, Welsh Assembly Government Teresa Pearce: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Scottish Government are considered to be full-time and Pensions what circumstances cited for failing to training where they involve 16 hours or more a week. take part in the training or education mandated by the There is no definition about what constitutes a full- or work programme will be considered reasonable. [44672] part-time course where training is funded from other sources—it is for the course provider to determine. Chris Grayling: Work programme providers will be Jobseekers who take part in full-time training are moved able to require customers to participate in work-related onto a training allowance and are not subject to jobseeker’s activity, including training or education, in circumstances allowance conditionality for the duration of their time where the customer’s benefit conditionality rules allow on the training. this. If a customer fails to participate in work-related Recipients of employment and support allowance activity, they will be given an opportunity to demonstrate referred to training by Jobcentre Plus will continue to good cause. Jobcentre Plus decision makers will come receive their usual benefit entitlement. In setting the to a view on whether or not a customer has good cause work-related activity for a member of the employment on a case-by-case basis, taking a customer’s individual and support allowance work-related activity group, circumstances into account. Jobcentre Plus advisers will ensure that the requirements We are currently developing guidance on the types of they place on a person are apt and reasonable in their circumstances which may be considered when judging circumstances. Work-related activity may include attending whether or not a customer has good cause. This guidance training to address a skills need if this will make it more will be published prior to the implementation of the likely that a customer will obtain or remain in work. work programme.

Teresa Pearce: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Incapacity Benefit: Medical Examinations and Pensions (1) whether individuals who participate in mandatory training or education as part of the work Stephen Lloyd: To ask the Secretary of State for programme or skills conditionality programme will Work and Pensions whether an individual appealing have a maximum course length; [44673] against a work capability assessment decision on their (2) whether claimants of jobseeker’s allowance or ability to work may continue claiming incapacity benefit employment and support allowance undertaking up to the point at which the appeal is determined. mandatory training as part of the work programme or [44652] skills conditionality programme will continue to receive their benefit during the course; whether such people Chris Grayling: If an incapacity benefit recipient who will be required to attend job interviews which are is found fit for work following a work capability assessment timetabled during course commitments; and whether then appeals against the decision, they will receive the their benefit entitlements will be dependent on the assessment phase rate of employment and support length of their course. [44674] allowance during the appeals process. They will no longer receive incapacity benefit. Chris Grayling: Skills conditionality will apply to both jobseeker’s allowance claimants and benefit recipients in the work-related activity group of employment and Jobseeker’s Allowance support allowance. People referred to training on a mandatory basis will be subject to the same benefit Jonathan Reynolds: To ask the Secretary of State for rules as those engaging in training on a voluntary basis. Work and Pensions what estimate his Department Skills conditionality is currently being piloted in 11 has made of the number of people not in work who Jobcentre Plus districts and will apply nationally from are ineligible for jobseekers’ allowance owing to August 2011. Mandatory referrals to training may then insufficient national insurance contributions. [44644] take place prior to a claimant’s entry to the work programme as well as once they are on the work programme. Chris Grayling: The information requested is not The course length will not be prescribed but will available. The latest information available is in the following depend upon the identified job goals and skills need of table. the claimant. Before a mandatory referral to training There are two types of jobseeker’s allowance. can be made, the college or training provider must have Contribution-based jobseeker’s allowance is payable for confirmed that they are able and willing to accept the up to 183 days as long as sufficient national insurance claimant onto an appropriate course. Benefit entitlements contributions have been paid at the relevant time. Income- will not be dependent on the length of the training based jobseeker’s allowance is payable irrespective of course. Units of accredited training will be offered as the claimant’s contribution record but according to the well as longer courses depending on the skills needs of claimant’s household income, and can be paid in addition the individual and those of the local labour market. to contribution-based jobseeker’s allowance. For both Claimants will be subject to sanctions for failure to types of the benefit, the claimant must also satisfy participate but where they can demonstrate good cause statutory conditions of entitlement, such as being available they will not be sanctioned. for and actively seeking work. 1079W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1080W

Jobseeker’s allowance claimants: Type of jobseeker’s allowance Mortgages: Government Assistance —May 2010 Type of jobseeker’s allowance Total Mr Frank Roy: To ask the Secretary of State for All 1,354,600 Work and Pensions how many people in Motherwell Contribution-based benefit only 205,300 and Wishaw constituency received support for mortgage Income-based and contribution- 21,200 interest payments in each of the last five years. [44265] based benefit Income-based benefit only 1,010,900 Steve Webb: As requested, the following table presents No benefit in payment (credits 117,300 the total number of claimants, in receipt of either only) pension credit (PC), income support (IS) or jobseeker’s Notes: allowance (JSA), receiving support for mortgage interest 1. The preferred statistics on benefits are now derived from 100% data sources. However, the 5% sample data still provide some detail not yet in Motherwell and Wishaw parliamentary constituency available from the100% data sources. DWP recommends that, where over the last five years. the detail is only available on the 5% sample data, the proportions Total number of claimants of PC, IS, JSA receiving mortgage interest derived should be scaled up to the overall 100% total for the benefit. in Motherwell and Wishaw parliamentary constituency These figures have been scaled up to the overall total. 2. Figures are rounded to the nearest 100 therefore totals may not sum As at May each year Number due to rounding. 2005 1500 3. These data were extracted from the Department’s tabulation tool at: 2006 600 http://83.244.183.180/5pc/tabtool.html 2007 1500 then rated up. 2008 1500 Source: 2009 1500 DWP Information Directorate Work and Pensions Longitudinal Study (WPLS) Information Directorate, 5% samples 2010 1500 1 Numbers are based on very few sample cases and are subject to a high degree of sampling variation. Jobseeker’s Allowance: Mortgages Notes: 1. Caseloads are rounded to the nearest 100. Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State 2. Figures are based on 5% sample data. All figures are subject to a for Work and Pensions what estimate he has made of degree of sampling variation. 3. Caseload figures have been uprated by using 5% proportions the number of claimants of jobseeker’s allowance in (a) against 100% Work and Pensions Longitudinal Study (WPLS) data. Stockton North constituency and (b) the UK who 4. Figures provided are a point in time estimate at May in each year. (i) were affected by his Department’s changes to entitlement Source: to mortgage interest payments and (ii) will be affected Department for Work and Pensions, Information Directorate, 5% over 12 months following the change. [43518] samples. Chris Grayling: The change in the standard interest rate used to calculate support for mortgage interest Poverty: EU Action applies to all customers who receive that help as part of their benefit. Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Work In May 2010, the latest period for which figures are and Pensions what assessment he has made of the likely available, the number of jobseeker’s allowance customers effect of the Commission Communication on The European in (a) the Stockton North constituency, and (b) Great Platform against Poverty and Social Exclusion: A European Britain, who were also in receipt of support for mortgage framework for social and territorial cohesion, COM(2010) interest, is given in the table. 758 final; what estimate he has made of the cost to the No estimate has been made of the number of jobseeker’s UK of implementing each measure recommended in allowance customers who will be affected over 12 months the Communication; and whether the implementation following the change to the standard interest rate at of any measure recommended in the Communication which support for mortgage interest is paid. would involve a transfer of powers from the UK to the EU. [44416] Jobseeker’s allowance claimants in receipt of mortgage interest in the Stockton North parliamentary constituency and in Great Britain— May 2010 Chris Grayling: The UK Government can agree to Jobseeker’s allowance claimants the principles that underpin the Platform or the European receiving mortgage interest Commission’s aspiration to lift 20 million people out of Stockton North *100 relative poverty by 2020. These goals are in line with the Government’s commitment to freedom, fairness and Great Britain 34,000 responsibility. However, our support is contingent on Notes: 1. Figures are rounded to the nearest 100. there being no additional resource implications for the 2. Figures have been uprated using 5% proportions against 100% UK and upon full respect for the principles of UK Work and Pensions Longitudinal Study (WPLS) totals. competence as provided for in the EU Treaties. 3. Parliamentary constituency of claimants are for the Westminster Parliament of May 2010. The Communication represents a high level summary 4. Figures are for Great Britain. Northern Ireland statistics are of the Commission’s intentions. It is not possible at this prepared by DSDNI and can be obtained from: stage to determine whether there would be any cost www.dsdni.gov.uk implication arising from the proposals or whether they 5. Numbers marked “*” are based on very few sample cases and are represent an erosion of member states’ powers. As subject to a high degree of sampling variation. Source: detailed proposals emerge over coming months we will Department for Work and Pensions, Information Directorate, 5% subject them to rigorous scrutiny to ensure that there samples are no adverse consequences for the UK. 1081W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1082W

Social Security Benefits Chris Grayling: The administration of Jobcentre Plus is a matter for the Chief Executive of Jobcentre Plus, Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Darra Singh. I have asked him to provide the hon. Pensions what estimate he has made of the number of Member with the information requested. households that will be subject to the total cap on Letter from Darra Singh: benefit entitlement which are currently in social The Secretary of State has asked me to reply to your questions housing. [40578] about what discussions our Department has had with Transport for London (TfL) on the promotion of discounted public transport Steve Webb: If the benefit cap is applied in full, it is fares for people in receipt of Jobseeker’s Allowance (JSA). This is estimated that around 70% of those affected by the something that falls within the responsibilities delegated to me as household cap on total benefit income will be living in Chief Executive of Jobcentre Plus. social housing. TfL provides discounted fares for customers claiming JSA, by providing them with a card giving them a 50% discount on buses The estimated number of households affected by the and trams. benefit cap is based on survey data using the Department It is available across London and promoted through Jobcentre for Work and Pension’s Policy Simulation Model. Small Plus offices at Fortnightly Job Reviews, Adviser interviews and sample sizes for those estimated to be affected mean other appropriate opportunities. Programme Providers are also that further estimating the characteristics of this group aware of and promote take up of the scheme. are uncertain and should be treated with caution. To be eligible for the card, customers must have been receiving We are currently looking at how we could transitionally JSA for a minimum of 13 weeks. At this point Jobcentre Plus protect those particularly adversely affected. issues application forms which customers can take to their local post office to receive the discount card. Note: This has been a very successful scheme since its introduction in Percentages have been rounded to the nearest 10% April 2009. By March this year over 173,000 cards had been issued to JSA customers. State Retirement Pensions Teresa Pearce: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Rachel Reeves: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what information his Department holds and Pensions (1) if he will estimate the effects on the on the availability of discounts for bus, train or tram Exchequer of bringing forward the proposed increase in fares provided to recipients of jobseeker’s allowance the state pension age to 67 years old to (a) 2035 and for the purposes of encouraging them to apply for jobs (b) 2034; [44866] outside their immediate locality. [44671] (2) if he will estimate the effects on the Exchequer of Chris Grayling: The administration of Jobcentre Plus bringing forward the proposed increase in the state is a matter for the Chief Executive of Jobcentre Plus, pension age to 68 years old to (a) 2045 and (b) 2046. Darra Singh. I have asked him to provide the hon. [44867] Member with the information requested. Steve Webb: Under existing legislation, the state pension Letter from Darra Singh: age will increase gradually to 67 between April 2034 To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what and March 2036, and gradually to 68 between April information his Department holds on the availability of discounts for bus, train or tram fares provided to recipients of Jobseeker’s 2044 and March 2046. Allowance for the purposes of encouraging them to apply for jobs We have interpreted the proposed changes to the outside their immediate locality. This is something that falls increase in the state pension age to 67 as: within the responsibilities delegated to me as Chief Executive of (a) bringing the change forward by one year so that the state Jobcentre Plus. pension age rises gradually to 67 between April 2033 and March Jobcentre Plus has a partnership agreement with the Association 2035. This would result in reduced spending of £6.9 billion, in of Train Operating Companies, which offers a 50% discount on 2010-11 prices, over the three years from 2033-34 to 2035-36. rail travel in England and Wales to Jobcentre Plus customers who (b) bringing the change forward by two years so that the state are seeking work or have entered the various New Deal Programmes pension age rises gradually to 67 between April 2032 and March for lone parents and disadvantaged groups. This agreement has 2034. This would result in reduced spending of £13.7 billion, in been in place for the last 13 years and has helped a wide range of 2010-11 prices, over the four years from 2032-33 to 2035-36. customers with travel costs. A similar scheme is also in place in Scotland via Scot Rail. and the proposed changes to the increase in the state More locally, other schemes are available such as discounted pension age to 68 as: fares through Oyster Card in London and Centro Partnership in (a) bringing the change forward by one year so that the state the West Midlands, both of which allow multi use of the card on pension age rises gradually to 68 between April 2043 and March rail and bus travel. In terms of travel by bus, there is no national 2045. This would result in reduced spending of £9.1 billion, in agreement, but advisers will signpost people to schemes available 2010-11 prices, over the three years from 2043-44 to 2045-46. locally. (b) bringing the change forward by two years, so that the state For those wishing to consider employment outside their immediate pension age rises gradually to 68 between April 2042 and March locality, we currently have the Travel to Interview Scheme, which 2044. This would result in reduced spending of £18.1 billion, in helps with the cost of attending interviews considered to be 2010-11 prices, over the four years from 2042-43 to 2045-46. outside the local travel to work area. The scheme does not have a large annual budget, so careful management is required to ensure Unemployed People: Travel it helps as many customers as possible each year. In doing so, advisers make awards, taking into account individual circumstances Teresa Pearce: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and factors which include making sure the applicant has an established claim to a qualifying benefit, the availability of jobs and Pensions what discussions his Department has had locally, the distance involved in attending the interview in question with Transport for London on the promotion of and what is considered to be the local travel to work area. discounted public transport fares for people in receipt Customers must apply for help before attending an interview to of jobseeker’s allowance. [44670] check entitlement. 1083W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1084W

In delivering a more personalised service from April this year, Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Work we are providing District Managers with a flexible support fund, and Pensions what assessment his Department has made which will subsume a number of current discretionary funds, of the effects of unemployment on income inequality. including the Travel to Interview Scheme. This new fund will be [44096] used directly and in partnership with other local organisations to tailor services to individual and local need. Where appropriate, this will include support for people who are looking to travel Chris Grayling: My Department has not made an further a field to look for and take-up work. assessment of the effects of unemployment on income inequality. Unemployment

Mr Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many people in England aged (a) 18, PRIME MINISTER (b) 19, (c) 20, (d) 21, (e) 22, (f) 23 and (g) 24 were (i) unemployed according to the International Labour Big Society Initiative Organisation definition and (ii) unemployed according to the International Labour Organisation definition and not in full-time education in the latest period for Chris Ruane: To ask the Prime Minister (1) whether which figures are available. [43904] (a) he and (b) any staff of his Office are participating in volunteering activity as part of the Government’s big Mr Hurd: I have been asked to reply. society initiative; [44188] The information requested falls within the responsibility (2) what steps his Office has taken to support the of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority Government’s big society initiative. [44200] to reply. The Prime Minister: My Office is undertaking Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated March 2011: volunteering activity with two social action partners As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I during 2011. have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking how many people in England aged (a) 18, (b) 19, (c) 20, (d) 21, (e) The first is with “Blue Sky Development and 22, (f) 23 and (g) 24 were (i) unemployed according to the Regeneration”, a non-profit organisation employing International Labour Organisation definition and (ii) unemployed ex-offenders in maintenance and recycling businesses to according to the International Labour Organisation definition help reduce reoffending rates. The second is with Street and not in full-time education. 43904 League, a charity that delivers sports and educational The table provided shows the information requested. programmes to tackle issues including homelessness, Number of unemployed people aged 18 to 24, by educational status. substance addiction, crime and unemployment. Three months ending December, 2010. England, not seasonally For further details I refer the hon. Member to the adjusted press notice on the No. 10 website Thousands http://www.number10.gov.uk/news/latest-news/2010/12/ Unemployed and not in full- number-10-staff-select-two-charities-to-support-in-2011- Age Total unemployed time education 58400 18 ***90 ***54 In addition, many members of my Office take part in 19 ***96 ***74 volunteering activities with a wide range of charities 20 ***103 ***85 and organisations. 21 ***86 ***76 22 ***87 ***83 23 ***74 ***70 24 ***64 ***61 CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT Coefficients of Variation have been calculated as an indication of the quality of the estimates, as described below: Arts Council England Guide to Quality: The Coefficient of Variation (CV) indicates the quality of an estimate, the smaller the CV value the higher the quality. The true value is likely Gavin Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for to lie within +/- twice the CV—for example, for an estimate of 200 Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport how much funding with a CV of 5% we would expect the population total to be within Arts Council England allocated per head of population the range 180-220. in (a) Wolverhampton North East constituency, (b) Key: * 0 = CV<5%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered Wolverhampton South East constituency, (c) precise Wolverhampton South West constituency, (d) Dudley ** 5 = CV <10%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered North constituency, (e) Dudley South constituency, reasonably precise (f) Stourbridge constituency and (g) Halesowen and *** 10 = CV <20%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered Rowley Regis constituency in the latest period for which acceptable **** CV ? 20%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered too figures are available. [44653] unreliable for practical purposes CV = Coefficient of Variation Mr Vaizey: The Office for National Statistics (ONS) Note: has not yet published current population and constituency It should be noted that the above estimates exclude people in most data, therefore, Arts Council England has advised that types of communal establishment (e.g. hotels, boarding houses, hostels mobile home sites etc.). the figures in the table are approximates based on the Source: most recent available alternative data from the ONS, Labour Force Survey which is from mid-2007. 1085W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1086W

Sum of amount awarded 2009-10 £ Regularly funded Constituency Grants for the Arts organisations Totals Population1 Funding per head

Dudley North 15,912 0 15,192 79,587 0.20 Dudley South 7,000 51,350 58,350 78,032 0.75 Halesowen and Rowley Regis 49,695 0 49,695 83,563 0.59 Stourbridge 82,008 0 82,008 87,441 0.94 Wolverhampton North East 4,669 0 4,669 83,955 0.06 Wolverhampton South East 5,000 57,326 62,326 84,568 0.74 Wolverhampton South West 177,710 290,257 467,967 81,623 5.73 1 Figures from 2007

Arts: Brighton and Hove their proposed merger with BSkyB. I have launched a consultation as to whether the undertakings in lieu Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for offered by News Corporation are sufficient to remedy, Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what assessment mitigate or prevent the public interest concerns in relation he has made of the contribution to UK gross domestic to media plurality raised by this merger. I will consider product by the arts and creative industries (a) all representations before reaching a final decision on nationally and (b) in the Brighton and Hove area; and the undertakings in lieu. if he will make a statement. [44640] Departmental Pay Mr Vaizey: The Department for Culture, Media and Sport does not hold separate measures of the arts and Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for creative industries contribution to the economy. The Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport if he will ensure contribution of music, performing and visual arts to the his departmental organisational chart includes the names economy is measured as part of the DCMS Creative and responsibilities of all staff paid over £58,200 per Industries Economic Estimates. We estimate that the annum in his Department and in the non-departmental contribution of the creative industries to the economy public bodies and agencies for which he is responsible. as a whole was 5.6% of gross value added (GVA) in [43543] 2008. GVAis the most accurate measure of an industry’s contribution to the economy and so this measure is John Penrose: The level of salary disclosure in our used instead of GDP. organisational structure charts already helps enable the The Department does not measure or hold data on public to hold the Department to account for its use of the contribution of creative industries to the economy public funds. There are no current plans to extend the at a regional level. scope of salary disclosure when structure charts are BBC updated.

Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Gambling Olympics, Media and Sport what recent discussions he has had with the BBC Trust on the potential effects of Mr Lammy: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, BBC online local news content on private sector providers Olympics, Media and Sport when he expects the outcomes of such news services. [44696] of the next Gambling Prevalence Survey to be published. [43057] Mr Vaizey: The Department for Culture, Media and Sport has regular discussions with the BBC Trust on the John Penrose: We are currently developing plans on measures agreed in last year’s licence fee settlement the precise form, funding and timing of the next Gambling including support for local TV. Prevalence Survey, working closely with the Gambling At the time of the licence fee settlement, the BBC Commission. committed to the principle that the BBC should not launch services which are more local than the BBC’s Languages: Scotland current offerings on radio, the web and television. British Sky Broadcasting Graeme Morrice: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what progress he Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for has made on meeting his Department’s responsibilities Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what recent regarding Scottish Gaelic for (a) language maintenance representations he has received on his decision on the and development under the European Charter for Minority News Corp bid for BSkyB; and if he will make a or Indigenous Languages and (b) broadcasting services statement. [45636] in UK languages. [44709]

Mr Jeremy Hunt: I refer the hon. Member to the Mr Vaizey: My Department’s interests in the UK Statement I made to the House on 3 March 2011, Government’s responsibilities under the Charter relating Official Report, columns 518-19, setting out that I propose to Gaelic were taken forward through the arrangements to accept undertakings from News Corporation on made for the establishment of BBC Alba. 1087W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1088W

Ofcom: Finance properties be fully wheelchair accessible and that 10% of the social for rent housing and 8% of the intermediate Stephen Barclay: To ask the Secretary of State for housing be fully wheelchair accessible. Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport for what reasons All the accommodation built for Olympians and Ofcom owes £29.3 million to central Government Paralympians will be retrofitted to provide homes in bodies; what plans there are to recover these funds; and legacy in compliance with this planning consent. for what reasons such liabilities arose. [43739] 1,379 affordable housing units in the Village have been sold to Triathlon Homes, an approved provider of Mr Vaizey [holding answer 3 March 2011]: Ofcom’s affordable homes. The provision of short-term lets to 2009-10 Annual Report lists £29.238 million grant in tenants will be a matter for Triathlon. aid paid by the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (BIS) in respect of the following Ofcom Sports: Bexley activities for the months of April, May, June and July 2010: Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what steps his Department £ million is taking to support grassroots sport in the London Spectrum Management 22.5 borough of Bexley. [45407] Spectrum Awards 1.8 Spectrum Clearance 4.1 Hugh Robertson: Sport England is the arm’s length Ex-Post Competition 0.7 body with responsibility for community sport. Their Other - Online Copyright Infringement, Local 0.1 aim is to increase and sustain levels of participation in Media, Digital Participation and Postal Integration sport. National Governing Bodies of sport (NGBs) are This is grant in aid paid in line with agreed procedures responsible for the strategy, delivering through their with BIS and is appropriately classified within Ofcom’s networks of community clubs, coaches and volunteers, statutory accounts under International Financial Reporting across all parts of the country. Sport England is investing Standards conventions. £480 million through 46 governing bodies over the next In addition, BIS has provided a loan of £2,036,000 to four years and has agreed ‘grow’ and ‘sustain’ targets Ofcom to enable them to undertake work to meet their with each one. Each sport has developed a whole sport obligations under the Digital Economy Act 2010. Those plan to achieve these targets. costs will fall to industry, but will not be recouped until Additionally, the £135 million Mass Participation the code of practice comes into force, at which time Olympic Legacy—Places People Play—was launched in Ofcom will repay the loan to BIS. November 2010 and will benefit residents of Bexley and the country more widely. This programme will be funded by lottery money and has been developed in partnership Olympic Games 2012: Housing with Sport England, the London Organising Committee of the Olympic and Paralympic games (LOCOG), the British Olympic Association (BOA) and the British Tom Brake: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Paralympic Association (BPA). Olympics, Media and Sport (1) what proportion of the affordable homes to be provided through the transformation In addition to the current funding being invested of the Olympic Athletes’ Village will be (a) accessible through NGBs, Sport England has invested a total of homes and (b) affordable accessible homes; [44786] £3,114,049 into Bexley since 2006. This includes a recent investment of £1.24 million via the Sustainable Facilities (2) whether developers undertaking work for the Fund to the Europa Gymnastics Centre, the site which London 2012 Olympics will be obliged to provide a will be the new home of the Europa Gymnastics Club, certain proportion of accessible housing in new which will also act as an Olympic and Paralympic developments in the area; [44787] training venue for the London 2012 Olympic and (3) how many of the 1,379 affordable homes to be Paralympic games. provided through the Olympic Athletes’ Village will be accessible; [44791] (4) if he will take steps to ensure that no accommodation unit in the Olympic Athletes’ Village which has been HOME DEPARTMENT modified for paralympians will be demolished or have its modifications removed following the London 2012 Departmental Billing Olympics; [44792] (5) what proportion of short-term housing in the Stewart Hosie: To ask the Secretary of State for the Olympic Athletes’ Village will be designated as accessible Home Department what proportion of invoices from housing as part of the Olympic Legacy strategy. [44793] suppliers her Department paid within 10 days of receipt in January and February 2011. [45073] Hugh Robertson: The Olympic and Paralympic Village has been designed to be part of a successful social, Damian Green: The Home Department has invested environmental and economically sustainable community. significantly in process improvement through the creation All the 2,818 housing units have been built to the of a professional Shared Service Centre and Procurement Lifetime Homes Standard for accessible and adaptable Centre of Excellence complemented by upgraded Procure homes. The planning consent requires that 8% of these to Pay systems. 1089W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1090W

The Department puts a firm focus on paying its (a) Indian and (b) other non-EU workers; what suppliers on time when it is in receipt of a compliant proposals she has received from the (i) EU and (ii) invoice. The Home Department’s performance information Indian Government concerning such visas; what for paying suppliers within 10 days of receipt of a representations she has received on this subject; what compliant invoice in January and February 2011 is: proposals have been made for the EU to grant the right Home Department—invoices paid within 10 days of entry to EU member states for such workers from January 2011 February 2011 outside the EU and what proposals have otherwise been made in respect of the EU on this subject; what Number of compliant 5,121 5,522 discussions she has held with other Ministers regarding invoices paid such matters; and if she will make a statement. [44594] Number of compliant 4,154 4,751 invoices paid within terms Damian Green: The Indian Government responded Percentage of compliant 81 86 to last year’s public consultation on the changes we are invoices paid within terms making to economic migration routes, including Intra- Company Transfers (ICTs). The European Commission Departmental Redundancy brought forward a proposal for a directive on the admission of third country ICTs, which the UK has not opted Mr Blunkett: To ask the Secretary of State for the into. The EU is also holding discussions with India on a Home Department when she expects an announcement free trade agreement which, it is proposed, will contain to be made on redundancies in the Sheffield offices of provisions on migrant workers. (a) the UK Border Agency and (b) her Department. The Home Secretary has frequent discussions with [45176] other Ministers concerning migration policy, among other matters. Damian Green: There are currently no plans to announce redundancies in the Sheffield offices of UK Border Human Trafficking Agency and the Home Department this year. In line with the budget settlement of the spending review 2011-15, Vernon Coaker: To ask the Secretary of State for the the UK Border Agency Offices and Home Department Home Department when she plans to announce the in Sheffield will have to carry out restructuring exercises. Government’s policy on human trafficking. [45122] Departments will explore all possible and reasonable alternatives such as redeployment and voluntary exit Damian Green: Combating human trafficking is a key schemes to avoid compulsory redundancies. priority for the Government. We are committed to tackling organised crime groups which profit from this Mr Blunkett: To ask the Secretary of State for the human misery and to protecting victims. We are due to Home Department what estimate she has made of publish our new strategy on human trafficking in the likely redundancies in the UK Border Agency in the spring. next four years. [45177] Immigrants: Detainees Damian Green: The UK Border Agency is committed to making no compulsory redundancies unless as a last Nicola Blackwood: To ask the Secretary of State for resort. Announced headcount reductions of 5,200 posts the Home Department (1) which Department of the over the next four years will be achieved wherever UK Border Agency is responsible for ensuring that possible through voluntary early release schemes, ceasing immigration detainees scheduled for removal are able recruiting, and reducing the numbers of contractors to retrieve personal possessions from their homes and agency staff. before removal; [44990] (2) what changes there have been to (a) policy and Dr Michael Savage (b) practice on responsibility within her Department and the UK Border Agency for ensuring that Mr Carswell: To ask the Secretary of State for the immigration detainees scheduled for removal are sent Home Department what her policy is on the exclusion personal possessions before removal. [45186] from the UK of Dr Michael Savage. [44157] Damian Green: Where UK Border Agency enforcement Damian Green: Michael Savage was excluded from officers (based in Local Immigration Teams around the the UK for making statements that brought him within country) attend an individual’s home in order to detain scope of the published unacceptable behaviour policy. them with a view to removal, the opportunity to pack a He expressed views that seek to provoke others to reasonable amount of luggage (determined by baggage serious criminal acts and foster hatred which might lead flight allowances) is given prior to departure for the to inter-community violence. In the absence of clear, Immigration Removal Centre (IRC). Full details are set convincing and public evidence that Mr Savage has out in Chapter 61.10.8 of the UK Border Agency’s repudiated his previous statements, his exclusion remains Enforcement Instructions and Guidance, available to in place. view at: www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/policyandlaw/guidance/ Foreign Workers enforcement/ However, once an individual is in detention, it is their Mr Clappison: To ask the Secretary of State for the responsibility to make arrangements for the retrieval of Home Department what discussions she has had on the any further possessions from their home, via friends or grant of intracompany transfer visas or other visas to family for instance. Such possessions may be brought to 1091W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1092W the IRC in question for inclusion in the individual’s James Brokenshire: Information on adults’ and luggage for their removal flight. households’, resident in England and Wales, risk of Should this lead to an excess of baggage for the being a victim of crimes covered by the British Crime flight, however, separate arrangements for their transport Survey (BCS) is available for many of the last 30 years. must be made by the individual. Detainees are allowed However, the BCS does not cover all types of crime and to retain their mobile phones or use phone cards to all population groups, with for example victimisation of facilitate this, and welfare officers are on site to assist children excluded. detainees with any concerns surrounding their departure, Data for England and Wales and North Wales between such as luggage. 1981 and 2009-10 are provided in the table. The BCS There has been no recent change to this policy or sample was expanded in 2001-02 to allow the provision practice. of some key estimates at police force area level but prior to this it is not possible to provide estimates for North Local Child Curfew Schemes: Suffolk Wales. Trends in percentage of adults/ households who were victims once or Mr Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for the more (prevalence risk) Home Department how many child curfew orders were Personal crime Household crime issued in Suffolk in each year since 1997; and how many North England North England such orders were breached in each such year. [45149] Wales and Wales Wales and Wales 1981 — 7 — 22 James Brokenshire: Local child curfew schemes were 1983 — 7 — 24 introduced by section 14 of the Crime and Disorder Act 1998, and amended in sections 48 and 49 of the Criminal 1987 — 7 — 27 Justice and Police Act 2001. They were repealed by the 1991 — 7 — 29 Police and Crime Act 2009. 1993 — 9 — 33 1995 — 10 — 33 Information on the number of local child curfew 1997 — 10 — 28 schemes was not collected centrally. 1999 — 9 — 25 Offensive Weapons: Sentencing 2001-02 5 7 117 22 2002-03 158113 21 2003-04 147114 20 Vernon Coaker: To ask the Secretary of State for the 1 Home Department what recent discussions she has had 2004-05 4 7 16 18 1 1 with the Secretary of State for Justice on sentences 2005-06 4612 18 given for (a) possession of a knife and (b) possession 2006-07 6 7 17 19 1 1 of a handgun. [45120] 2007-08 3611 17 2008-09 1461918 James Brokenshire: The Secretary of State for the 2009-10 136111 16 Home Department has regular discussions with the 1 Denotes statistical significance (at 95% level) in comparison with Secretary of State for Justice on a range of sentencing England and Wales. Notes: issues. 1. All risks are rounded to nearest whole number. 2. Details of Personal and Household crime as measured by the BCS Prevent Scheme are given in section 2.6 ‘BCS measures of crime’ in ‘User Guide to Home Office Crime Statistics’ at: http://rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs10/crimestats-userguide.pdf Mark Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for the 3. Differences in estimates between years may not be statistically Home Department how much funding was allocated to significant. Significant differences between years covering this period Milton Keynes local authority under the Prevent can be found in table 2.03 in ‘Crime in England and Wales 2009/10’ at: scheme in each of the last three years. [44756] http://rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs10/hosb1210.pdf Source: Andrew Stunell: I have been asked to reply. British Crime Survey Milton Keynes council received the following amounts from the Department for Communities and Local Government as part of their Area Based Grant under Visas: Students the Prevent programme.

£ Paul Uppal: To ask the Secretary of State for the 2008-09 105,000 Home Department whether she has made an assessment 2009-10 143,292 of the effect on UK universities of the decision to (a) 2010-11 138,193 withdraw two-year post-study working visas and (b) reduce entitlements to part-time work on study visas. Victims [44429]

Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for the Damian Green: A consultation on the student Home Department what estimate has been made of the immigration system closed on 31 January.The consultation chance of an individual becoming a victim of crime sought the views of all respondents on the effect of the (a) nationally and (b) in North Wales in each of the proposals. The results of the consultation and an impact last 30 years. [44558] assessment will be published in due course. 1093W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1094W

INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT Departmental Leaseback Arrangements

Afghanistan: Education Stewart Hosie: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what assets his Department Tony Baldry: To ask the Secretary of State for has sold and leased back over the last 12 months; what International Development what plans his Department the sale price was of each asset so sold; and what has to work with (a) the Afghan Ministry of Education estimate he has made of the cost to the public purse of and (b) donors to (i) reduce barriers to girls’ education, leasing back each such asset over the period of the (ii) increase access to secondary and higher education lease. [45092] for girls, (iii) increase the number of trained male and female teachers in rural areas and (iv) increase the Mr O’Brien: The Department for International number of adequately equipped schools in rural areas Development (DFID) has not disposed of any assets in Afghanistan. [44657] under a sale and leaseback arrangement over the last 12 months. Mr Andrew Mitchell: The coalition Government are Developing Countries: Energy putting girls and women at the heart of our international development programme. The Department for International Mark Lazarowicz: To ask the Secretary of State for Development (DFID) is working with other donors to International Development when he last discussed the support the Government of Afghanistan with the World Bank energy strategy review with the Secretary implementation of its second National Education Strategic of State for Energy and Climate Change. [44556] Plan, which aims to raise enrolment from 7 million to 9 million in the next three years. Key components of the Mr Andrew Mitchell: I meet the Secretary of State for plan include increasing the number of female teachers Energy and Climate Change on a regular basis and a (by expanding their intake at teacher training centres); variety of relevant matters are discussed. Although we ensuring 200 secondary schools for girls are built in have not met specifically to discuss the World Bank rural areas; and ensuring 2,540 local communities have Energy Strategy Review, officials from the Department increasing responsibility for managing safety arrangements for International Development (DFID) and the Department at schools, so that both girls and boys can attend and for Energy and Climate Change regularly meet and enjoy school safely. discuss the Review as it progresses. Both I and the Along with other major donors, DFID is also supporting Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change are Afghanistan’s application for assistance via the Education in close touch with officials on this process. DFID for All Fast Track Initiative. officials have also been in regular contact with the World Bank to feed in UK views on previous drafts of Tony Baldry: To ask the Secretary of State for the review. International Development what recent assessment he DFID has emphasised the need for the World Bank has made of barriers to girls’ education in Afghanistan. to take full account of all the relevant issues concerning [44658] use of renewable energy versus fossil fuels in developing countries, and to pay better consideration to the Mr Andrew Mitchell: A recent Education Sector Analysis, vulnerability of natural resources and energy assets in conducted in preparation for Afghanistan’s application developing countries. The UK has also emphasised the for the global Education for All initiative, highlighted importance of strengthening the World Bank’s role in many barriers to girls’ education, including lack of supporting developing country planning capacity for female teachers, limited number of girls’ schools, safety low carbon, climate resilient growth. and security issues and distance of travel. The Department for International Development (DFID), along with other India: Overseas Aid donors, is working with the Government of Afghanistan to help address these challenges. For example, the support Mr MacShane: To ask the Secretary of State for we have provided through the Government’s Education International Development how much aid he plans to Quality Improvement Programme has enabled communities allocate to India in cash terms in each of the next five and schools to come together to enhance safeguards for years. [44663] girls travelling to and being in school. Mr Andrew Mitchell: Following my announcement Departmental Billing on 1 March 2011 of the conclusion of the Bilateral and Multilateral Aid Reviews, I published indicative budgets Stewart Hosie: To ask the Secretary of State for for the Department for International Development’s International Development what proportion of invoices (DFID’s) bilateral programme for the four financial from suppliers his Department paid within 10 days of years 2011-12 to 2014-15. The indicative budget for receipt in January and February 2011. [45093] India is frozen at £280 million for each of those four years. Mr O’Brien: The Department of International The UK’s aid programme in India will focus much Development (DFID) paid 63.92% of payments within more tightly on India’s poorest states and poorest people. 10 days in January and 92.98% in February, January We will help these states to unlock more funds from the figures were significantly lower than average due to a private sector and reinforce the impact of the Indian high volume of invoices received and adverse weather Government’s own programmes. Our goal will be to conditions that affected staff in our East Kilbride office help the poorest women and girls get quality schooling, in December 2010, as well as an IT system upgrade in health care, nutrition and jobs as the key to breaking January. the cycle of poverty for the next generation. 1095W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1096W

International Assistance Enterprise deaths in Halifax constituency Employment size band Mr MacShane: To ask the Secretary of State for 0-49 50-249 Total International Development what the membership is of 2009 390 0 390 his Department’s Multilateral Aid Review. [44843]

Mr O’Brien: The Multilateral Aid Review (MAR) was conducted by staff from the Department for DEFENCE International Development (DFID), reporting directly to the Secretary of State for International Development. Afghanistan: Elections DFID staff sought comments and evidence from a range of stakeholders, including the multilateral Gordon Birtwistle: To ask the Secretary of State for organisations themselves, civil society organisations such Defence what steps he plans to take to ensure that votes as non-government organisations and trade unions, other cast by service personnel in Afghanistan for elections Government Departments and developing country partners. to be held on 15 May 2011 reach the UK securely. In addition, two leading academics in the field of [45431] development studies acted as joint external reviewers for the Review. Mr Robathan: For the referendum and elections on 5 May 2011, the Ministry of Defence is working with International Labour Organisation: Finance the Cabinet Office and the Electoral Commission to utilise existing supply flights to transport postal ballot Mr MacShane: To ask the Secretary of State for packs (subject to operational priorities). However, voting International Development whether he consulted the by proxy remains the most reliable means for service TUC prior to taking the decision to reduce his Department’s personnel stationed overseas to cast their votes. level of support for the International Labour Organisation. Air Force: Pay [44664]

Mr O’Brien: The Trades Union Congress (TUC) was Penny Mordaunt: To ask the Secretary of State for consulted throughout the Multilateral Aid Review (MAR) Defence whether his Department plans to continue to process. In the early stages of this process, the TUC pay flying-related financial retention incentives. [41652] submitted an evidence paper detailing its views on the International Labour Organisation (ILO). The Secretary Mr Robathan [holding answer 28 February 2011]: of State for International Development discussed the Financial incentive schemes, including financial retention ILO with Brendan Barber, General Secretary of the incentives are kept under constant review based on TUC, on 15 December 2010. Department for International need. This is particularly important in a period when Development (DFID) officials met the TUC in January force structures are changing. However, no decisions 2011 to discuss the MAR’s findings relating to the ILO have yet been taken. Information on any changes to and I discussed the review of the ILO with representatives existing schemes will be promulgated as soon as they of the TUC in February 2011. are known. Arab States: Arms Trade

Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for CABINET OFFICE Defence on which occasions representatives of the government of (a) Egypt, (b) Bahrain, (c) Libya and Business: Closures (d) Tunisia have attended sales and marketing events organised by his Department in the last three years; Mrs Riordan: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet and what the status was of their attendance. [43491] Office how many small and medium-sized businesses in Halifax have closed since May 2010. [44550] Mr Prisk: I have been asked to reply. Major UK defence and security exhibitions are organised Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the commercially. The role of UK Trade and Investment responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have Defence and Security Organisation (UKTI DSO) is to asked the authority to reply. host official overseas Government defence and security Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated March 2011: delegations at these events. Invitations are issued with As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I approval of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. In have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking the last three years an official delegation has attended how many small and medium-sized businesses in Halifax have from Bahrain at Farnborough International Air Show closed since May 2010. [44550] 2008 (FIAS ’08), Defence Equipment and Systems Annual statistics on the number of enterprise deaths are available International 2009, and Home Office Scientific and from 2002 onwards in the ONS release on Business Demography Development Branch exhibition 2010 (HOSDB), from at: Egypt at Defence Equipment and Systems International www.statistics.gov.uk 2009 and HOSDB ’10, and from Libya at FIAS ’10. The table below contains the latest statistics available, which give the number of enterprise deaths for small and medium-sized In addition, UKTI DSO has hosted inward visits businesses in the constituency of Halifax for 2009. Information from representatives of the Governments of Bahrain, relating to 2010 will be available following release of the latest Egypt and Libya. In May 2008, a Bahraini Army delegation Business Demography publication in November 2011. visited UK to witness a demonstration of artillery fire 1097W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1098W control equipment. In May 2009 the Bahraini National Armed Forces: Redundancy Guard visited UK for a variety of presentations related to defence of major international conferences. In May Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for 2009 and October 2010, a Bahraini defence delegation Defence pursuant to the answer of 15 February 2011, attended the multinational Ballistic Toolkit demonstrations Official Report, columns 815-22W, on armed forces of small arms and protective equipment In September (redundancies), what actions (a) he and (b) Ministers 2010, Bahraini defence delegates attended an exhibition in his Department plan to take to ensure that no of UK military equipment as part of UK/Bahrain members of the armed forces are informed of their defence staff talks. In April 2010 an Egyptian officer redundancy by email. [42841] attended a Ministry of Defence event to brief London-based Defence attachés on the UK approach to operational Mr Robathan [holding answer 28 February 2011]: training and UKTI DSO Export Support Team Ministers have made clear that individuals should be demonstrated some optical equipment. In November informed that they are being made redundant through 2009 a Libyan delegation visited a variety of UK defence the Chain of Command. In exceptional cases this may companies to discuss border security issues. Some members be by telephone, but for the vast majority it will be face of the Libyan delegation which attended FIAS ’10 also to face. In no circumstances will personnel be informed visited RAF establishments. by email. Representatives of the Government of Tunisia have Departmental Procurement not attended a defence or security exhibition, or other export related event, as guests of the UK Government Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence over the last three years. what the cost to the public purse was of the (a) procurement and (b) outsourcing function of (i) his Department and (ii) each (A) agency and (B) non-departmental public Armed Forces: Pay body for which he is responsible in the last financial year for which figures are available. [43960] Stuart Andrew: To ask the Secretary of State for Peter Luff: The Ministry of Defence has made no Defence pursuant to the written ministerial statement estimates of the total cost of its procurement and of 20 January 2011, Official Report, columns 45-47WS, outsourcing functions. We have estimated that the cost on armed forces allowances, what assessment he has of the commercial element of the procurement function made of the likely effect of the changes to local in 2009-10 was £153 million. The commercial element overseas allowance on the average amount payable to of the procurement function is a sub-set of the overall personnel based overseas; and if he will make a cost, which also includes the cost of project management, statement. [44722] the supply chain and the costs involved over the entire life-cycle of a project, from initial requirement and Mr Robathan [holding answer 7 March 2011]: This concept, through to ultimate final disposal. This estimate information is not held as the rate of local overseas is based on an average cost of the number of commercial allowance can vary significantly depending upon where staff in the main commercial areas, including overheads. individuals are posted and which rank band they are The estimate for the Private Finance Unit, which is part placed in. It is expected that in the majority of cases of the outsourcing function, was £0.7 million. individuals will receive less, but as a result of the reduction Separate information for each agency and non- of rank-based bands from 13 to three, personnel at departmental public body could be provided only at lower ranks may find that they benefit as a result of disproportionate cost. these changes. Nimrod Aircraft

Armed Forces: Pensions Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence whether the factors determining the withdrawal of Ms Angela Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for MR2 Nimrod were taken into account in his decision Defence what proportion of active members of the to cancel the MRA4 Nimrod. [44515] Armed Forces Pension Scheme earn (a) between £10,000 Peter Luff: The Nimrod MR2 was withdrawn from and £15,000, (b) between £15,000 and £20,000, (c) service in March 2010. I cannot comment on the rationale between £20,000 and £25,000, (d) between £25,000 and for decisions taken by the previous Government, but £30,000 and (e) £30,000 and more. [40374] the decision to cancel the Nimrod MRA4 project was based on a careful consideration of future costs and Mr Robathan: The following table provides information military priorities. on the proportion of active members of the Armed Forces Pension Scheme by salary band as at 1 April 2010: TRANSPORT Salary band Proportion (%) Blue Badge Scheme: Learning Disability £10,000-£14,999 3.5 £15,000-£19,999 19.6 Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport £20,000-£24,999 14.4 what guidance he has given to local authorities on the £25,000-£29,999 13.5 provision of blue badges for drivers responsible for £30,000 plus 49.0 adults with learning difficulties; and if he will make a statement. [44898] 1099W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1100W

Norman Baker: The Department for Transport has The manual contains detailed guidance on cycle parking not issued any guidance specifically on this matter. Blue for new developments and it is up to authorities whether Badges can be issued to individuals who receive the or not they choose to follow this in their local plans. higher rate mobility component of disability living The Department for Transport is not currently planning allowance, are registered blind, receive a war pensioners any further work on this issue. mobility supplement, or who have a “permanent and Departmental Manpower substantial disability that causes inability to walk or very considerable difficulty in walking”. People with conditions such as learning difficulties will be eligible Mr Redwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport for a badge if they meet one or more of these criteria. how many (a) actual and (b) full-time equivalent staff were employed by his Department in May 2010. [42393] Cycling Norman Baker: The central Department and its seven Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for executive Agencies identified the following number of Transport what plans his Department has to increase (a) actual and (b) full-time equivalent staff were employed cycling as a means of transport in (a) Birmingham, in May 2010. The total includes both permanent and (b) the West Midlands and (c) England. [43109] non-permanent employees. (a) The number of actual staff employed as at 31 May 2010 Norman Baker: The Government have committed to was 19,648 (2,186 of which were employed in the Central Department). funding the Bikeability cycling proficiency training (b) The number of full-time equivalent staff employed as at programme for the lifetime of this Parliament—until 31 May 2010 was 18,603 (2,133 of which were employed in the 2015, thereby giving confidence to the future of the Central Department). programme. The focus of Government support will be The Department is undergoing organisational on providing children the opportunity to receive training restructuring to contribute to the spending review when at school. commitment of a 33% reduction in administration budget In addition, the Government have allocated £560 million (composed of pay and non-pay costs) during the spending resource and capital funding to support local sustainable review period. travel projects in the form of the local sustainable transport fund. Through this, local transport authorities Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for outside London are eligible to bid for packages of Transport how many and which staff positions he sustainable travel measures which can incorporate cycling expects to be removed as part of his Department’s initiatives. programme of internal restructuring. [42429]

Cycling England Norman Baker: The central Department and its seven Executive Agencies expect to reduce the number of Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for full-time equivalents (FTEs) employed by approximately Transport what estimate he has made of the cost to the 1,660 as part of organisational restructuring by the end public purse of closing Cycling England. [43108] of 2014-15. This is in order to contribute to the spending review commitment of a 33% reduction in the Norman Baker: Cycling England will cease to exist administration budget (composed of pay and non-pay after 31 March 2011. All contracts relating to its work, costs) and as a result of other measures to improve including board appointments, were due to come to an efficiency. end on that date and therefore there is no cost for early Of this overall reduction, a reduction of approximately termination. Any contracts for work which is continuing 480 FTEs will be from the central Department. All are being renegotiated in line with departmental procedures. posts have been redesigned during this restructuring to The three staff of Cycling England are Department for ensure they meet the needs of the organisation going Transport employees. forward, have clear responsibility and accountability Cycling: Parking and add value to each other. Departmental Regulation Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what plans he has to raise cycle parking standards for Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for new developments. [43812] Transport what regulations his Department introduced between 7 December 2010 and 8 February 2011. [42083] Norman Baker [holding answer 7 March 2011]: In 2007 the Departments for Transport and Communities Mike Penning: 15 statutory instruments made by the and Local Government together published “Manual for Department for Transport came into force between Streets” 7 December 2010 and 8 February 2011, details of which http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/sustainable/manforstreets/ are set out in the following table.

DFT regulations introduced between 7 December 2010 and 8 February 2011

Title Reference In force

The Bus Lane Contraventions (Approved Local Authorities) (England) 2010 No. 2790 31 December 2010 (Amendment) (No. 2) and Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions Designation (No. 4) Order 2010 1101W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1102W

DFT regulations introduced between 7 December 2010 and 8 February 2011 Title Reference In force

The Severn Bridges Tolls Order 2010 2010 No. 3002 1 January 2011 The Cornwall Council (Havle North Quay) Bridge Scheme 2010 Confirmation 2010 No. 3032 6 January 2011 Instrument 2010 The M1 Motorway (Junctions 10 to 13 Improvement Connecting Roads) 2010 No. 2824 9 January 2011 Scheme 2010 The Traffic Management (Northamptonshire County Council) Permit Scheme 2010 No. 2823 10 January 2011 Order 2010 The Merchant Shipping and Fishing Vessels (Health and Safety at Work) 2010 No. 2984 10 January 2011 (Asbestos) Regulations 2010 The Merchant Shipping and Fishing Vessels (Health and Safety at Work) 2010 No. 2987 10 January 2011 (Artificial Optical Radiation) Regulations 2010 The Motor Fuel (Composition and Content) and Merchant 2010 No. 3035 14 January 2011 Shipping(Prevention of Air Pollution from Ships) (Amendment) Regulations 2010 The Fixed Penalty (Amendment) Order 2010 2010 No. 2720 1 February 2011 The Road Safety (Financial Penalty Deposit) (Amendment) Order 2010 2010 No. 2721 1 February 2011 The Road Safety (Financial Penalty Deposit) (Appropriate Amount) 2010 No. 3016 1 February 2011 (Amendment) Order 2010 The River Mersey (Mersey Gateway Bridge) Order 2011 2011 No. 41 1 February 2011 The Shrewsbury (Kingsland) Bridge (Revision of Tolls) Order 2011 2011 No. 71 1 February 2011 The Motor Vehicles (Insurance Requirements) Regulations 2011 2011 No. 20 4 February 2011 ¦The Road Safety Act 2006 (Commencement No. 6) Order 2011 2011 No. 19 4 February 2011

Driving Tests: Fees and Charges Railway Stations: Heating

Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport whether he has given consideration to changing the Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport level of fees charged for driving tests; and if he will pursuant to the answer of 12 January 2011, Official make a statement. [43122] Report, column 349W, on Network Rail: passengers, if he will assess the merits of introducing a duty to provide Mike Penning: The test fees charged by the Driving a warm waiting area at train stations as part of any Standards Agency (DSA) are set at levels to meet the future rail franchise agreements. [43159] agency’s expenditure. The agency is not currently planning an overall increase Mrs Villiers: The Department for Transport has no in the fee levels set for its statutory activities, although plans to introduce such a duty. Reforms to the franchise some rebalancing of fees may occur. process, such as longer franchises, will give franchisees Heathrow Airport better incentives for long-term investment in the stations.

Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what consideration the South East Airports Railways: Oxfordshire Taskforce plans to give to restrictions on night flights at Heathrow airport after October 2012. [43034] Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Mrs Villiers: The South East Airports Taskforce is what assessment he has made of the effects of Network exploring measures to help make the most of existing Rail assuming responsibility for the Evergreen 3 project infrastructure and improve conditions for all users at from Chiltern Railways. [44960] Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted airports. Proposals for post October 2012 restrictions on night Mrs Villiers [holding answer 8 March 2011]: Chiltern flights at Heathrow will be subject to a separate consultation. Railways remains compliant with the delivery dates of An announcement about the timing of the consultation the Evergreen 3 project laid out in its contract with the will be made in due course. Department for Transport. It has not therefore been Pedestrian Crossings necessary for the Department to undertake any assessment of Network Rail assuming responsibility for the Evergreen 3 project. Damian Hinds: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will estimate the cost to the public purse of the replacement of pelican crossings by puffin crossings Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport (a) in total and (b) per crossing in the last 10 years. what proportion of the funding for the Evergreen 3 project [43667] his Department is providing. [44961] Norman Baker: All decisions to install or alter pedestrian crossing facilities are taken at local level and the Department Mrs Villiers [holding answer 8 March 2011]: The for Transport does not hold any information regarding Department for Transport has not provided Chiltern costs incurred by local authorities for this purpose. with any funding for the Evergreen 3 project. 1103W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1104W

Third Sector Mr Gibb [holding answer 3 February 2011]: Local authority central spend equivalent grant (LACSEG) is Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport paid to academies by academic year (AY), September to whether (a) he and (b) Ministers in his Department August. are participating in volunteering activities as part of his There were 133 academies open in AY2008/09. LACSEG Department’s involvement in the big society initiative. data for these academies is held by the Department for [42666] Education and shown in the table. Norman Baker: The ministerial team supports and There were 202 academies open in AY2009/10. LACSEG encourages volunteering in many ways, in our ministerial data for these academies is held by the Young People’s roles and as constituency members. We actively support Learning Agency and shown in the table. initiatives by participating in visits, attending community Copies of both tables have been placed in the Library. events and raising awareness of volunteering through media activity. Business: Education Ministerial involvement in charities is recorded in the “List of Ministers’ interests”. The current list is available Karen Bradley: To ask the Secretary of State for on the Cabinet Office website at: Education what steps he is taking to develop and promote http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/resource-library/list- enterprise education; and if he will make a statement. ministers-interests [38126] Voluntary Work and Charitable Donations Mr Gibb: The Department currently has a contract Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport with the Specialist Schools and Academies Trust (SSAT) whether his Department has a policy to encourage its to run the Enterprise Network to support enterprise employees to (a) volunteer and (b) donate via payroll education. The network is made up of Enterprise Learning giving. [43246] Partnerships (ELPs), each chaired by a head teacher with representatives on the board from two secondary Norman Baker: Although the central Department for schools, two primary schools, a special school, a further Transport and its agencies do not have a specific policy education college and an employer. There are currently to encourage volunteering and payroll giving, opportunities 54 ELPs covering 99.6% of local authority areas in for volunteering activities are promoted on their intranet England. Lead practitioners for each sector of education sites. Case studies of individual and team volunteering have been identified in each region to share their ideas are publicised, and employees are encouraged to share for enterprise education with their peers. their experiences. The contract with SSAT ends in March 2011. Beyond Up to three days special paid leave are allowed annually that date, we expect the ELPs to become self-sustaining for volunteering, and examples of eligible activities are without Government funding, ensuring a network of listed in the staff handbook. local and teacher-led groups to support enterprise education The Department operates and publicises its Give as in schools. You Earn (GAYE) payroll giving scheme which enables From April 2011, if schools wish to provide enterprise employees to make regular payments to good causes education, they may do so of their own accord, either directly from salary. buying in services from enterprise education providers The central Department for Transport won the 2010 or arranging their own enterprise activities. They will be Volunteering Partnership Award for Innovative Projects able to use the Dedicated Schools Grant (DSG) for this for its Fast Stream volunteering mentoring project. purpose which, from financial year 2011-12, will include the £55 million that used to be notionally allocated for Written Questions: Government Responses enterprise education but is no longer earmarked for that purpose. Schools are free to spend the DSG however Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport they so choose. when he plans to answer questions (a) 24052, (b) 24053, (c) 24051 and (d) 24054 tabled on 10 November Departmental Procurement 2010. [44870] Norman Baker [holding answer 7 March 2011]: Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for Regrettably, a rare administrative error in the Department Education whether all new contracts his Department has meant that I have only been able to answer these has tendered over £10,000 have been published with questions on 8 March 2011, Official Report, columns associated tender documents on the Contracts Finder 921-22W. I apologise for any inconvenience this has website since its inception. [39219] caused. Tim Loughton: Since 1 January 2011 the Department has so far published six tender documents and one contract on Contracts Finder. Prior to this we published EDUCATION six ICT contracts on the Department’s website and six Academies: Finance tender documents on Business Link. We currently have one tender and one contract being prepared for publication. Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Education The Department has robust systems in place to identify what the local authority central spend equivalent grant relevant tenders and contracts for publication but I to each academy school was in real terms in (a) 2008-09 cannot guarantee that some documents may exist that and (b) 2009-10. [38027] have not yet been identified. 1105W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1106W

Departmental Public Expenditure Departmental Senior Civil Servants

Bill Esterson: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for which members of the senior civil service have left his Education how much his Department has spent on Department since May 2010; on what date and for what artwork since May 2010. [36042] reasons the exit occurred in each case; and what (a) contractual and (b) non-contractual payments were made upon exit to each such staff member. [36819] Tim Loughton: The Department does not record expenditure on artwork separately on its accounting Tim Loughton [holding answer 31 January 2011]: system. If this information could be obtained it would The information for the Department is set out in the be at disproportionate cost. following table:

Name (at director level and Exit payment (cost to above only)1 Date of departure Reasons for leaving Contract terms Department) (£)

Deputy director 31 May Volunteer Early Release Non-contractual 410,000-414,999 30 July Resignation n/a n/a 15 September Approved Early Retirement Non-contractual 195,000-199,999 15 September Approved Early Retirement Non-contractual 205,000-209,999 24 October Transferred to another n/a n/a Government Department 31 December Flexible Early Retirement Non-contractual 100,000-104,999

Michael Hearty 22 August Transferred to another n/a n/a Government Department

Ian Taylor 30 September Flexible Early Release Non-contractual 215,000-219,999 1 Senior civil service naming and salary protocols are based on the latest published Transparency Agenda exercise criteria.

Departmental Temporary Employment (2) how many questions for written answer on a named day his Department received between 11 May Bill Esterson: To ask the Secretary of State for 2010 and 28 February 2011; and how many such questions Education what the most recent previous employment have received a substantive answer on the named day was of each senior staff member employed on a specified to date; [44728] fixed-term contract in his Department since May 2010. (3) how many questions for ordinary written answer [34839] his Department received between 11 May 2010 and 28 February 2011; and how many have received a Tim Loughton [holding answer 20 January 2011]: substantive answer to date. [44729] Since May 2010, the Department has employed fewer than five individuals in the senior civil service on a Tim Loughton[holding answers 14 February and 7 March fixed-term contract. 2011]: The Department has received 728 named day PQs between 11 May 2010 and 28 February 2011. Of Departmental Travel the PQs replied to between the specified dates 10% were answered on the named day. Paul Maynard: To ask the Secretary of State for The Department has received 2166 PQs for ordinary Education how much his Department spent on grey written answer between 11 May 2010 and 28 February fleet in (a) 2008-09 and (b) 2009-10. [28853] 2011, 74% have received a substantive answer.

Tim Loughton: Information for the Department is as Disadvantaged: Children follows: Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for Total cost (£) Education what recent steps his Department has taken 2008/09 101,296 to encourage voluntary and community sector engagement 2009/10 106,912 with local authorities in the delivery of early intervention programmes. [39460]

Departmental Written Questions Sarah Teather: This is a key theme of our reform programme on Sure Start. The Government wants to Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for retain a national network of Sure Start Children’s Centres, Education (1) how many and what proportion of the which offer universal services and proven early interventions named day parliamentary questions tabled for answer to support families in greatest need, and to increase by his Department received a substantive answer on the local flexibility to configure services to meet local need. day named between 18 May 2010 and the latest date for We want to enable more voluntary and community which figures are available; [40789] sector organisations to run and deliver services within 1107W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1108W children’s centres; and we are seeking opportunities for further education; and when he expects initial estimates public sector workers within children’s centres to form of the (a) level of funding allocated per student per employee owned mutuals or cooperatives. The recent institution and (b) number of young people receiving Localism Bill included measures to give local organisations (i) funds and (ii) other assistance through the Discretionary and local authority employees the right to challenge Learner Support Fund to be available. [26511] local authorities to run services if they can do things better or more cost effectively. The Government are Mr Gibb: The YoungPeople’s Learning Agency currently also working with local authorities, the early years allocate the discretionary learner support fund to schools, sector and the Association of Chief Executives of Voluntary colleges and training providers on behalf of the Department Organisations, to discuss how to overcome practical for Education. The funds are currently allocated according barriers to increasing voluntary and community sector to a formula which takes into account a range of factors involvement in children’s centres. In addition, the including the student population and levels of deprivation. Department is investing £59 million each year over the We are considering the replacement for the EMA, including next two years to directly fund voluntary and community how the funds should be allocated to ensure that support sector organisations to deliver a range of grant funded is targeted on those children who most need it to allow activities of national significance in relation to children, them to continue in education. young people and families, with a particular emphasis on early intervention and supporting the most disadvantaged. Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what assessment he has made of the effect Discretionary Learner Support Fund on the ability of students to travel of the abolition of education maintenance allowance. [35669] Glenda Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what plans he has for the allocation of the Mr Gibb: We are considering the replacement for the discretionary learner support fund. [38189] education maintenance allowance and want to ensure that the funds we have are targeted on those young Mr Gibb: We are committed to making sure that people who most need support to enable them to participate young people from low income households can continue in learning, including to help them to meet transport in education and training post-16. We are considering costs. the replacement for the education maintenance allowance and want to ensure that the funds we have are targeted Local authorities have a statutory duty to make on those young people who most need support to arrangements to ensure that young people can attend enable them to participate in education. education. They must publish a statement each year which sets out the support they will provide for transport. Education Endowment Fund John Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Kelvin Hopkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what estimate his Department has made of Education whether (a) sixth form colleges and (b) the costs it will incur as a result of the replacement of further education colleges will be eligible to submit the education maintenance allowance; and if he will applications (i) to the Education Endowment Fund make a statement. [36958] proposed in paragraph 7.12 of the White Paper, The Importance of Teaching and (ii) for a share of the Mr Gibb: We are working with the Young People’s £35 million collaboration incentive fund set out in paragraph Learning Agency, which administers the education 7.13 of the same document. [34988] maintenance allowance on behalf of the Department for Education, to assess any costs that may arise from Mr Gibb: The purpose of the Education Endowment the replacement of education maintenance allowance Fund is to fund bold and innovative approaches into with a package of financial support that is better targeted ways of raising the attainment of disadvantaged pupils to those students facing genuine financial barriers to in underperforming schools. If a sixth form or a further participation. education college considered it could support an underperforming school to raise attainment then it would be eligible to submit an application for consideration to the organisation administering the Fund. Free School Meals: Blackpool The intention of the collaboration incentive as described in the Schools White Paper is to reward schools who Paul Maynard: To ask the Secretary of State for support weaker schools demonstrably to improve their Education how many children receive (a) free school performance while also improving their own. The design meals and (b) education maintenance allowance in of the scheme is still in progress, and so no decision has each local authority ward in Blackpool North and yet been taken about whether sixth form and further Cleveleys constituency. [37302] education colleges are in scope for any of its activities. Education Maintenance Allowance Mr Gibb: Information on free school meal eligibility is shown in the following table: Teresa Pearce: To ask the Secretary of State for The answer includes full-time pupils aged 0 to 15 and Education which body will monitor the effects on students part time pupils aged 5 to 15 known to be eligible for of the proposed changes to student financial support in and claiming free school meals. 1109W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1110W

Maintained nursery1, Maintained primary2, state-funded secondary2, 3 and special4 schools: School meal arrangements5, 6. As at January 2010. By each ward within Blackpool North and Cleveleys parliamentary constituency Maintained nursery1 and primary2 State-funded secondary2, 3 Special4 Number Number Number of pupils of pupils of pupils known to Percentage known to Percentage known to be eligible known to be be eligible known to be be eligible Percentage for and eligible for for and eligible for for and knowntobe claiming and claiming and claiming eligible for free claiming free claiming free and claiming Number school free school Number school free school Number school free school on roll5, 6 meals5, 6 meals on roll5, 6 meals5, 6 meals on roll5, 6 meals5, 6 meals

Anchorsholme 794 73 9.2 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Bispham 206 23 11.2 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Bourne 577 106 18.4 n/a n/a n/a 136 48 35.3 Claremont 489 279 57.1 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Cleveleys 182 51 28.0 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Park Greenlands 402 122 30.3 1,443 503 34.9 n/a n/a n/a Ingthorpe 752 147 19.5 1,440 154 10.7 n/a n/a n/a Jubilee 280 54 22.9 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Layton 604 178 29.5 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Norbreck 576 86 14.9 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Park 564 353 62.6 1,865 388 20.8 29 9 31.0 Warbreck 208 36 17.3 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a

Blackpool 5,634 1,518 26.9 4,748 1,045 22.0 165 57 34.5 North and Cleveleys (all wards) n/a = Not applicable. No schools at this type. 1 There are no maintained nursery schools in Blackpool North and Cleveleys parliamentary constituency. 2 Includes middle schools as deemed, 3 Includes city technology colleges and academies, however there are no schools of this type in Blackpool North and Cleveleys parliamentary constituency, 4 Includes maintained and non-maintained special schools, excludes general hospital schools. 5 Includes sole and dual (main) registrations. 6 Pupils who have full-time attendance and are aged 0 to 15. or pupils who have part-time attendance and are aged 5 to 15. Source: School Census

The question of how many young people in Blackpool http://ema.ypla.gov.uk/resources/research/takeup/ North and Cleveleys constituency received EMA is a matter for the YoungPeople’s Learning Agency (YPLA) Free Schools: Expenditure which operates the education maintenance allowance for the Department for Education. Peter Lauener, the Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Education YPLA’s chief executive, has written to the hon. Member how much his Department has allocated to expenditure with the information requested and a copy of his reply on consultant to support free school proposers to develop has been placed in the House Libraries. business cases and arrange school administration. Letter from Peter Launer, dated 1 February 2011: [29397] I am writing in response to your Parliamentary Question PQ37302. Mr Gibb: The Department has not set aside an allocation The Department of Education has responded to you regarding specifically for consultancy support for Free Schools to the first part of your question. I have been asked to provide a develop business cases and arrange school administration. reply to the latter part of your question regarding how many children in each local authority ward in Blackpool North and Members: Correspondence Cleveleys constituency have received Education Maintenance Allowance (EMA). Amber Rudd: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Information on the number of young people who have received when he plans to reply to the letter from the hon. Education Maintenance Allowance (EMA) is available for upper Member for Hastings and Rye of 6 January 2011, tier local authorities but not by constituency. EMA take-up is defined as young people who have received one or more EMA reference AR/DDS/564, on behalf of her constituent payments in the academic year. Mr Kilroy. [45271] As at 31 December 2010, the take-up figure for young people in Blackpool local authority area who have received EMA during Tim Loughton: We acknowledge receipt of the letter the 2010/11 academic year was 1,366. from the hon. Member. The issues raised in the EMA take-up data showing the number of young people who correspondence are cross cutting and are the responsibility have received one or more EMA payments during 2004/05, 2005/06, of more than one Department. Responses are being 2006/07, 2007/08, 2008/09 and 2009/10 is available on the YPLA carefully considered before a full and final response is website, at the following address: sent in the near future. 1111W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1112W

Outdoor Education Mr Gibb: The Department for Education’s capital spending will be £15.8 billion over the four-year CSR Valerie Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Education period. So far capital allocations have been announced what assessment he has made of the adequacy of support for the financial year 2011-12 and the outcome of the for the use of fieldwork as a teaching method in teacher capital review which is due to report in the spring will training courses. [41442] inform funding from 2012-13 onwards. Capital funding is not set aside specifically for primary Mr Gibb [holding answer 17 February 2011]: The schools. It is the responsibility of each local authority initial teacher training (ITT) requirements require that to assess the building requirements of all the maintained providers of ITT design, deliver and assess training to schools in its area and prioritise the available resources. enable trainee teachers to demonstrate that they have However, we have set aside £800 million for 2011-12 to met all of the QTS standards. This includes preparing support capital funding specifically where it is urgently trainees to teach outside the classroom. necessary to increase the number of school places available in response to population changes in a local area. The guidance accompanying QTS standard Q30 provides links to the “Learning Outside the Classroom Manifesto” Pupils: Disadvantaged and the “Teaching Outside the Classroom Programme Website”. It also offers links to four case studies that Anne Marie Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for chart high quality provision in training teachers to Education what estimate he has made of the number of teach outside of the classroom. The teacher training students in (a) Newton Abbot constituency and (b) resource bank provides support for trainers and their Devon who will qualify for the pupil premium. [36167] trainees and currently hosts 37 resources related to fieldwork, including geography and science-related subject Mr Gibb [holding answer 3 February 2011]: The specific resources. In addition, there are 152 resources January 2010 school censuses allow an estimate of the relating to education outside the classroom including a number of eligible pupils to be made. National Foundation for Educational Research survey report on provision in ITT, and the “Manifesto for In Newton Abbot in January 2010 there were 1,390 Learning Outside the Classroom”. pupils known to be eligible, which would give rise to a pupil premium of £597,700. This does not include ITT providers are regularly inspected by Ofsted to pupils recorded on the alternative provision census (ie ensure that they continue to comply with the ITT those funded through the Dedicated Schools Grant via requirements, that their provision is high quality, and local authorities but educated in non-maintained special that they have the capacity to improve the quality of schools, further education establishments, etc.); those that provision. who are not following the national curriculum, although these pupils are eligible for the pupil premium if they Valerie Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Education are aged between 4 and 15 years, or service children, as what steps he is taking to ensure that children from low these figures are not available at constituency level. income families are not excluded from participating in In Devon in January 2010 there were 10,590 pupils out of school learning because of the cost of such known to be eligible, which would give rise to a pupil activities. [41535] premium of £4,553,700. In addition to this there were 775 pupils known to be eligible for the service child Mr Gibb [holding answer 17 February 2011]: Learning premium, which would give rise to a further £155,000. outside the classroom can play a valuable role in any child’s educational experience. Existing legislation prevents However, these are estimates only and are not necessarily schools from charging for any visit that takes place indicative of how the pupil premium will be distributed. during school time, is being undertaken as part of the The number of eligible pupils in 2011 could be higher or national curriculum, or as part of preparing a child for lower. a prescribed public examination. Schools may make a Note: charge for board and lodging on residential trips, but For the local authority the above estimates include FSM-eligible parents of pupils eligible for FSM will be exempt from pupils, in Reception to Year 11, or the appropriate age-range if paying this cost. not following the national curriculum, as at the January 2010 school census, pupil referral unit census and the alternative provision From April 2011 we are introducing the pupil premium census (ie those pupils funded through the Dedicated Schools to support the attainment of deprived children who are Grant via local authorities but educated in non-maintained special currently eligible for free school meals (FSM), children schools, further education establishments, etc.) and those eligible looked after for more than six months and FSM pupils for the looked-after child pupil premium. Pupil numbers are in non-mainstream settings. Schools may in future wish rounded to the nearest five. to consider using the pupil premium funding to enable such children to benefit from out of school educational Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for activities. Education if he will estimate the number of students who would qualify for the pupil premium under a system based on (a) Mosaic and (b) Acorn calculations. [36408] Primary Education: Finance Mr Gibb: Both Mosaic and Acorn are commercially Tony Lloyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Education produced classifications of postcodes into types based how much funding he has allocated to rebuilding and on the characteristics of residents and their consumer improvement of primary schools in England in each of behaviour. This information is derived from a wide the next four years; and if he will make a statement. range of data. Acorn classifies at postcode level while [45272] Mosaic classifies at both households and postcodes. 1113W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1114W

As such, neither Mosaic nor Acorn identifies individual Mr Gibb: The Department for Education received a pupils as deprived; rather they group areas with other representation on 16 December 2010 from the Ministry similar areas. Were this to be used for the pupil premium of Defence (MOD) regarding children of service families a decision would need to be made about which areas and the School Admissions Code, in the light of discussions should be defined as ‘deprived’. The number of pupils that had already taken place between the two Departments. eligible for the pupil premium using either of these This representation included the views of the Children’s methods would depend on which ‘types’ were chosen to Education Advisory Service, which provides advice to represent areas of deprivation. The more types selected, service families on education and schools. Continued the more pupils would be living in them. discussion of these matters with the MOD is helping to inform the review of the School Admissions Code, Pupils: Per Capita Costs announced in the Schools White Paper—“the importance of Teaching”. Mr Rob Wilson: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what estimate his Department has made of Schools: Capital Investment the level of funding per school pupil in the maintained sector in England in (a) 2010-11 and (b) 2011-12. [28964] Oliver Colvile: To ask the Secretary of State for Education when he plans to publish the report of the Mr Gibb: The estimated level of funding per pupil in James Review into the allocation of capital for schools. schools in the maintained sector in England for 2010-11 [43372] is £4,082.88. The estimated level of funding per pupil for 2011-12 is not yet available. Mr Gibb [holding answer 2 March 2011]: The Capital On 13 December the Government announced the Review team will report to Ministers in the spring. school funding settlement for 2011-12 which provides for the schools’ budget to be maintained at flat cash per Schools: Crawley pupil overall, meaning that it will rise in line with increases in pupil numbers. In addition to the settlement for the underlying schools budget, the pupil premium Henry Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Education will provide additional funding for schools with deprived when he plans to announce the budget for School Sport pupils. Set at £430 this year at a total cost of £625 Partnership funding for schools in Crawley constituency million, it will rise to £2.5 billion in 2014-15. for academic year 2011-12. [42418] School Capital Funding Tim Loughton: My right hon. Friend, the Secretary of State for Education has announced that he will not Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Education continue to provide ring-fenced funding for school sport who was responsible for the appointment of the Chair partnerships beyond 31 August 2011. of the review of school capital funding. [39666] Instead, the Secretary of State is making available £65 million of new funding for schools to enable them Mr Gibb: The Secretary of State for Education, my to provide more opportunities for competitive sport. right hon. Friend, made the appointment. This funding will cover the school years 2011/12 and 2012/13 and will pay for one day a week of a secondary School Leaving and Truancy PE teacher’s time to be spent out of the classroom, encouraging greater take-up of competitive sport in Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Education primary schools and securing a fixture network for what proportion of teenagers (a) did not complete schools to increase the amount of intra- and inter- their schooling and (b) were absent from school without school sporting competition. This will include schools authorisation in each (i) local authority area and (ii) in the Crawley constituency. constituency in each of the last five years. [38497] Schools: Vocational Guidance Mr Gibb: Information on the proportion of teenagers who did not complete their schooling is not collected by this Department, nor can it be accurately derived from Esther McVey: To ask the Secretary of State for the data currently collected on pupils. Education what plans his Department has to provide Information on pupil absence is collected for pupils pupil-focused careers advice to pupils of all ages in all of compulsory school age only. Information on pupils schools. [38125] aged 12 to 15 as at 31 August 2009 who were absent from school without authorisation in each local authority Mr Gibb: The Education Bill proposes a statutory area and parliamentary constituency in 2008/09 has duty on schools to secure access to independent careers been placed in the House Libraries. To provide information guidance for all pupils aged 13 to 16. The guidance for further years would incur disproportionate cost. should be presented, in an impartial manner and include information on 16 to 18 education or training options, Schools: Admissions including apprenticeships. Schools will have the freedom to decide how best to fulfil this duty in accordance with Damian Hinds: To ask the Secretary of State for the needs of their pupils. This approach is founded on a Education what recent representations he has received partnership model where schools work alongside specialist on provision for children of service families in the careers advisers to ensure alt pupils have access to schools admissions code. [37045] appropriate levels of high quality support. 1115W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1116W

Science: GCSE Mr Gibb [holding answer 18 October 2010]: In line with the outcomes of the comprehensive spending review Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for announced on 20 October, funding for specialist schools, Education (1) what recent assessment his Department including high performing specialist schools (HPSS), has made of the availability of triple science GCSEs in will be mainstreamed from April 2011. This funding, deprived areas; [37436] approximately £450 million in 2010-11, is not being (2) what steps his Department is taking to increase removed from the schools system and will continue to the (a) availability and (b) take-up of triple science be routed to schools through the Dedicated Schools GCSEs in deprived areas. [37437] Grant. Details of the funding principles and individual school Mr Gibb: The following table gives the number and 1 allocations can be found there under the ‘Funding for percentage of pupils at the end of key stage 4 entering specialist schools’ webpage at: biology, chemistry and physics GCSEs by IDACI decile2,3 4 http://www.education.gov.uk/schools/leadership/ of pupil residence , in 2009/10. typesofschools/specialistschools/a0065479/funding-for- specialist-schools Number of Percentage of resident pupils resident pupils Students: Finance entering biology, entering biology, Number of chemistry and chemistry and IDACI decile2, 3 resident pupils physics GCSEs physics GCSEs Angela Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for 0-10% most 66,170 5,425 8.2 Education what formula he plans to use to determine deprived how much each provider of post-16 education receives 10-20% 62,067 5,891 9.5 from the learner support fund; and whether this formula 20-30% 58,984 6,631 11.2 will be amended following the end of the education 30-0% 56,409 7,480 13.3 maintenance allowance. [37175] 40-50% 56,023 8,830 15.8 50-60% 55,133 9,759 17.7 Mr Gibb: Discretionary learner support funds are 60-70% 54,704 10,813 19.8 currently allocated according to a formula which takes 70-80% 55,460 12,003 21.6 into account a range of factors including the student 80-90% 54,900 13,025 23.7 population and levels of deprivation. 90-100% least 54,121 14,825 27.4 We are considering the replacement for the education deprived maintenance allowance, including how the funds should 1 Pupils at the end of key stage 4 at the end of the academic year. 2 Income Deprivation Affecting Children Indices. Each Super Output Areas be allocated, to ensure that support is targeted on those (SOAs) in England is given a score which ranks it between 1 and 32,482, 1 young people who most need support to enable them to being the most deprived. (SOAs were introduced in 2004 as a new geographic continue in education. hierarchy designed to improve the reporting of small area statistics. Lower Layers have a minimum population of 1000, and there are 32,482 LSOAs (Lower Layer Super Output Areas) in England.) Supplementary Schools 3 IDACI bands are based on 2007 IDACI scores. 4 Only includes pupils who are resident in England attending maintained schools, City Technology Colleges and academies. The residency of 1,755 Angie Bray: To ask the Secretary of State for Education children is unknown due to missing or invalid postcode information. These what his Department’s policy is on the role of children are excluded from the figures in the table. supplementary schools within general education policy; Source: National Pupil Database (Amended data) and if he will make a statement. [36966] This shows that, while the number of state funded schools offering triple science has risen from 27% to Mr Gibb: The Department for Education believes over 70% in six years, the proportion of pupils entered that supplementary schools make an effective contribution for triple science GCSE is lower in deprived areas. The to community cohesion and have an important part to Government wants to ensure that triple science GCSE play in the education and social development of children is available in all schools and to any pupil who can and young people. benefit, and we have already introduced a number of Over the past two years, the Department has provided measures to achieve this. We have encouraged schools a total of £445,000 to the National Resource Centre for to offer triple science by including it in the English Supplementary Education to help raise the profile of Baccalaureate. We are also taking steps to increase the supplementary schools and to improve standards of number and quality of science teachers, for example by teaching and management. expanding programmes such as Teach First and by looking at how to encourage graduates to teach in Sure Start Programme: Finance shortage subjects, including physics and chemistry. The recent Schools White Paper confirms that we will Ben Gummer: To ask the Secretary of State for support schools to offer triple science. We plan to Education what estimate he has made of the level of announce details of how this support will be focused on funding for the Sure Start programme in each year of increasing take up by those pupils who live in the most the Comprehensive Spending Review period; and what deprived areas. mechanisms are in place to ensure that funds provided to local authorities for the programme are spent on Specialist Schools: Finance that programme. [24513]

Nick de Bois: To ask the Secretary of State for Sarah Teather: The spending review announced that Education what his policy is on publishing the level of funding for Sure Start will be maintained in cash terms capital grant paid to specialist schools upon initial over the next spending review period, including investment designation. [17374] in health visitors. The total allocated in 10-11 for Sure 1117W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1118W

Start children’s centres was £1,135 million. From April Agenda 2011, funding for Sure Start will form part of the new un-ringfenced Early Intervention Grant which in total Mike Feinberg, Co-founder, Knowledge is Power Program is worth £2,222 million in 2011-12 and £2,307 million in (KIPP) 2012-13. It is for local authorities to determine the most Aaron Brenner, Head of Primary Schools, KIPP Houston effective use of the funding in the Early Intervention Paul Castro, Head of High Schools, KIPP Houston Grant. We have ensured there is enough money in the Josephine Baker, Executive Director, Washington D.C. Early Intervention Grant to maintain a network of Public Charter School Board Sure Start children’s centres, accessible to all, while Monique Miller, Performance Manager, Washington D.C. identifying and supporting families in greatest need. Public Charter School Board Intervening early makes sense socially, morally and Karinne Kennedy, a parent whose children attend The financially. Local authorities continue to have duties SEED School of Washington under the Childcare Act 2006 to consult before opening, closing or significantly changing children’s centres and 12.00 Q and A session to secure sufficient provision to meet local need, so far Right hon. Michael Gove MP, Lord Hill, Joel Klein, Mike as is reasonably practicable. In addition, the Department Feinberg, Josephine Baker for Education’s partner supporting local authorities’ work on children’s centres until March 2011, Together 12.30 Lunch and networking for Children, will be ready to assist local authorities in making plans to keep centres open. 13.30 Workshop session 1 Three Valleys Independent Academy 14.35 Workshop session 2 John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Education whether he has received a proposal for a Three Valleys 15.35 Submitting a proposal—best practice Independent Academy in Rotherham. [34651] Rachel Wolf, Director, New Schools Network

Mr Gibb: The Department for Education has received 15.55 The Class of 2011 a proposal for Three Valleys Independent Academy in Mela Watts, Director of Free Schools, Department for Rotherham. This Free School Proposal was approved Education to move to business case and plan stage on 14 January 2011. 16.10 Final remarks and close Westminster Academy The total budget for the conference was £35,460.89. Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for The invitations were sent out by the New Schools Education what the (a) agenda, (b) list of speakers, Network. We are unable to supply the individual names (c) budget and (d) invitation list is for the event on free of those on the invitation list due to the restrictions schools he plans to attend at the Westminster Academy under the Data Protection Act The 400 delegates consisted on 29 January 2011; and whether speakers will receive of parents, teachers and organisations who have expressed (i) remuneration and (ii) expenses for attending the an interest in opening a free school. Partner/stakeholder organisations and Government officials also attended event. [37084] the conference. Mr Gibb [holding answer 31 January 2011]: The The speakers did not receive any remuneration for requested information regarding the conference agenda attending the event. The Department covered the travel and speakers can be found in the following table: and accommodation costs for each of the international speakers, which included a return economy flight from Agenda the US, accommodation costs at a Department-approved hotel and one evening meal. 8.45 Registration and refreshments

10.00 Welcome and introduction Young People: Bed and Breakfast Accommodation David Bell, Permanent Secretary, Department for Education Ann Coffey: To ask the Secretary of State for Education 10.05 Visualising a new school landscape how many people aged 16 and 17 years were placed in Right hon. Michael Gove MP, Secretary of State for emergency bed and breakfast accommodation in the Education latest period for which figure are available. [38334]

10.25 Understanding the proposition Tim Loughton: Information on the number of people Lesley Longstone, Director General, School Infrastructure aged 16 and 17 years who were placed in emergency bed and Funding Directorate, Department for Education and breakfast is not available centrally. Revised statutory guidance was issued in 2010 to local authorities on 10.45 Learning from the best: international evidence meeting the needs of homeless 16 and 17-year-olds. Joel Klein, Former New York City Public Schools This makes clear that bed and breakfast accommodation Chancellor (now CEO, Educational Division, News Corporation) is not considered suitable for 16 and 17-year-olds even on an emergency basis. 1119W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1120W

COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT there are a small number of analogue phones installed in each Government Office for emergency use that do Community Relations: Bolton not bar access to the speaking clock.

Yasmin Qureshi: To ask the Secretary of State for Departmental Leaseback Arrangements Communities and Local Government how much funding his Department has provided to Bolton local authority Stewart Hosie: To ask the Secretary of State for for community cohesion projects in each of the last Communities and Local Government what assets his three years. [44827] Department has sold and leased back over the last 12 months; what the sale price was of each asset so Andrew Stunell: A total of £280,000 was allocated to sold; and what estimate he has made of the cost to the Bolton in the three years from 2008-9 to 2010-11 for public purse of leasing back each such asset over the community cohesion projects via un-ringfenced area period of the lease. [45086] based grant. The following table shows the Department’s total Robert Neill: No transactions in this category have cohesion spend for each financial year from 2008-9 to taken place. 2010-11. Community cohesion funding area-based grant in Bolton Departmental Legal Costs £

2008-09 49,412 Mr Raynsford: To ask the Secretary of State for 2009-10 90,588 Communities and Local Government how much his 2010-11 140,000 Department spent on external legal advice in (a) January Total 280,000 and (b) February 2011. [43913]

Departmental Billing Robert Neill [holding answer 3 March 2011]: The Department spent £151,921 on external legal advice in Stewart Hosie: To ask the Secretary of State for January; the figure for February will be available in due Communities and Local Government what proportion course. of invoices from suppliers his Department paid within As I indicated in a previous answer to the right hon. 10 days of receipt in January and February 2011. Member, this compares to a comparable spend of £4.8 [45087] million in 2009-10.

Robert Neill: In January 2011 the Department for Departmental Manpower Communities and Local Government paid 92.47% of invoices within 10 days and in February 2011 93.23% of Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for invoices were paid within 10 days. Communities and Local Government if he will take steps to ensure that his published departmental Departmental Conditions of Employment organisational chart includes the names and responsibilities of all staff paid over £58,200 per annum in his Department Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for and in the non-departmental public bodies and agencies Communities and Local Government what assessment for which he is responsible. [43544] he has made of his Department’s adherence to each of the principles of good employment practice set out in Robert Neill: The coalition Government are committed the Cabinet Office publication Principles of Good to improving transparency, including the setting of senior Employment Practice. [42632] pay. In March 2010, the Review Body on Senior Salaries commented that Robert Neill: DCLG’s own standard practices already ‘there seems to us to be insufficient transparency on top-level ensure that outcome-based commissioning of services reward in the public sector’ is our default method. We are engaging with suppliers, prioritising on those most relevant such as facilities (Initial report on Public Sector Senior Remuneration management, to review their approach to training and 2010, Cm 7848). skills. The coalition programme includes commitments to publish salary information for most of the senior civil Departmental Expenditure service and to publish organograms for the entire organisation. As a first step, the Government published Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Secretary of State for the details 345 senior officials in Departments, agencies Communities and Local Government how much and non-departmental public bodies in post at 31 March Government Offices for the Regions spent on calls to 2010 whose rate of pay was £150,000 or more. speaking clock services in each of the last three financial This was extended to lower levels of the senior civil years. [43783] service (SCS) as part of the organograms that were published last October. Although individualised salary Greg Clark: Information on the costs of any calls details for the most junior level of the SCS (pay bands 1 made over the last three financial years can be provided and 1A) were not released, the numbers and grades of only at disproportionate cost although calls to certain staff in each of their teams and the total salary costs of premium rate numbers are barred from digital phones, that team were published. 1121W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1122W

The level of disclosure for senior civil servants is Neither the Department nor the Central Office of going to be further reviewed prior to the next exercise, Information hold records which distinguish between in April 2011. the different types of press advertising space purchased. In addition, the names of the special advisers in post, including each special adviser’s pay band, actual salary Departmental Procurement where this is £58,200 or higher, together with details of the special advisers’ pay ranges for 2010-11, were most Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities recently published in the Prime Minister’s statement of and Local Government what the cost to the public 28 October 2010, Official Report, column 18WS. purse was of the (a) procurement and (b) outsourcing function of (i) his Department and (ii) each (A) agency Stewart Hosie: To ask the Secretary of State for and (B) non-departmental public body for which he is Communities and Local Government how many staff responsible in the last financial year for which figures in his Department were in the Civil Service redeployment are available. [43962] pool on the latest date for which figures are available; and how many of these had been in the redeployment Robert Neill: The cost of the Department’s (a) pool for more than six months at that date. [44353] procurement function for the last financial year, 2009-10, was £1.39 million. The Department does not have (b) an outsourcing function. Robert Neill: There were no staff in the Department for Communities and Local Government redeployment Information on the Department’s non-departmental pool on 3 March 2011. The Department’s redeployment public bodies is not held centrally and could be provided pool, known as the Career Transition Centre, was closed only at disproportionate cost. at the end of January 2011 and surplus staff were However, I can confirm that the cost of the procurement deployed across the Department. function in the last financial year 2009-10, in the Planning Inspectorate was £191,695 and in the Housing and Communities Agency was £787,538. Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers Departmental Video Recordings Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how much Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Secretary of State for special advisers in his Department claimed in expenses Communities and Local Government how much his in (a) 2007-08, (b) 2008-09 and (c) 2009-10. [43859] Department spent on film production and associated costs for video messages from each Secretary of State in (a) 2008-09 and (b) 2009-10. [43781] Robert Neill: I refer my hon. Friend to the answers given on 21 July 2008, Official Report, column 765W Robert Neill: The information requested is as follows: and 11 March 2010, Official Report, column 419W. 2008-09 costs are: These show that the following expenses were claimed in each year: Hazel Blears video message for Tiger 11 Regeneration Summit, November 2008—£1,850 £ Hazel Blears video message for REACH Programme event, March 2009—£1,808 2007-08 1,952.88 Hazel Blears film launching the local government White Paper: 2008-09 4,407.35 “Communities in Control: Real People Real Power”, August 2009-10 1,327.90 2008—£11,790 This gives a total spend of £15,448. 2009-10 costs are: Departmental Press John Denham filmed at the Scrutiny Conference, February 2010—£793 Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Secretary of State for The above costs compare with a zero spend since May 2010. Communities and Local Government how much his Department spent on newspaper (a) supplements and Departmental Finance (b) advertorials in (i) 2007-08, (ii) 2008-09 and (iii) 2009-10; and (A) in which publication and (B) for what Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Secretary of State for purpose in each case. [43776] Communities and Local Government what funding his Department and its agencies have provided to (a) Global Robert Neill: The Department buys media space through Action Plan, (b) Forum for the Future, (c) the Green the Central Office of Information. Their records show Alliance and (d) the New Economics Foundation in the following total annual expenditure on purchasing the last three years; and for what purpose in each case. press advertising by the Department: [43846] 2007-08: £3,116,567 Robert Neill: No funding was made by this Department 2008-09: £2,898,805 and its agencies to the named organisations in the last 2009-10: £1,860,579 three financial years. 1123W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1124W

Electoral Reform Services £ Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for 2008-09 427,000 Communities and Local Government what the monetary 2009-10 447,000 value was of contracts his Department placed with 2010-11 1420,000 Electoral Reform Services in each year since 2005. 1 Expected to be [44212] Information on costs incurred by public bodies sponsored by the Department is not held centrally and could be Robert Neill: The Department has had no contracts provided only at disproportionate cost. with Electoral Reform Services in any years since 2005. Food: Procurement Energy Performance Certificates Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for and Local Government when he expects his Department Communities and Local Government what consideration to meet the Government’s commitment to source food he gave to the merits of including in the Energy Bill a that meets British or equivalent standards of production. requirement that (a) energy performance certificates [43325] (EPC) are produced when a property is marketed and (b) for the EPC to be prominently displayed in property Robert Neill: The Department for Communities and sales literature. [44626] Local Government does not directly procure food. Catering services are provided via the Department’s total facilities Andrew Stunell: The requirement for an Energy management contracts. In the case of DCLG’s HQ Performance Certificate to be provided at the point of building, Eland House, this is delivered through Mitie marketing to a prospective buyer or tenant is part of the plc. Energy Performance of Buildings (Certificates and The Department works with suppliers, actively promoting Inspections) (England and Wales) Regulations 2007. DEFRA guidelines that food procured meets British or The requirement for the Certificate to be prominently equivalent standards of production wherever this can displayed in property sales literature is part of the be achieved without increasing overall costs, Energy Performance of Buildings (Certificates and Inspections) (England and Wales) Regulations 2007. Freedom of Information

External Audit Services Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government which public Stephen Barclay: To ask the Secretary of State for authority holds the archived records of the Office of the Communities and Local Government what expenditure Deputy Prime Minister for the purposes of the Freedom (a) his Department and (b) each public body sponsored of Information Act 2000; and at what location the by his Department incurred on engaging in each of the records are held. [44024] last three years; and to which service providers such payments were made in each year. [43758] Robert Neill: The records of the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister are currently held by the Department Robert Neill: DCLG has its own internal audit service for Communities and Local Government. The records and does not routinely purchase audit services externally. are stored by TNT, the Department’s external records However over the last three years DCLG engaged storage provider, in their storage facility in West Thurrock. PricewaterhouseCoopers to provide interim support to internal audit and they were paid as follows: Government Procurement Card

Fiscal year £ Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Secretary of State for 2008-09 297,221 Communities and Local Government how much (a) his Department and (b) its agencies spent on the 2009-10 326,061 Government Procurement Card in (i) 2008-09 and (ii) 2010-11 1163,636 2009-10; and how many transactions each made in each Grand total 786,918 such year. [43841] 1 Projected to end March The contract with PwC ends this year. Robert Neill: Figures for the Department (including External audits are undertaken by the National Audit those of the Department’s arms length bodies using the Office and are reported as a notional cost in the resource central programme) and the Department’s agencies are accounts as follows: as follows:

2008-09 2009-10

Transactions Value (£) Transactions Value (£)

DCLG (Central) 2349 549,983 1623 314,559

Government Office Network 4209 2,248,247 4277 1,973,149

Residential Property tribunal Services/Rent 625 95,247 873 138,604 Assessment Panels 1125W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1126W

2008-09 2009-10 Transactions Value (£) Transactions Value (£)

Infrastructure Planning Commission 0 0 76 44,260 Agencies: Planning Inspectorate 1081 154,670 1220 146,539 Fire Service College 437 222,432 387 178,683 Queen Elizabeth 11 Conference Centre 497 65,699 504 87,223

Housing: Regeneration The Local Government Resource Review will consider options to enable councils to retain their locally-raised Joan Walley: To ask the Secretary of State for business rates, and will deliver proposals this year. Such Communities and Local Government how much housing an approach will help set free many local councils from market renewal funding was allocated to Stoke-on-Trent dependency on central Government funding and provide in the last three years; what transitional relief funding incentives, through the business rates system, for councils for housing market renewal will be allocated to Stoke- to promote economic growth. on-Trent in 2011-12; and if he will make a statement. [45152] Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what grant spending Grant Shapps: The RENEW North Staffordshire data for items over £500 has been published by (a) his Pathfinder, for which Stoke on Trent city council is the Department, (b) its Executive agencies, (c) its non- accountable body, was allocated £108.2 million of housing departmental public bodies, (d) its public corporations market renewal funding in 2008-11. Dedicated funding and (e) the Government offices for the Regions since for the housing market renewal programme ends in May 2010. [43867] March 2011 and with the country facing a record deficit and less money available for top-down investment, we Robert Neill: Since 12 May 2010 DCLG has published need to find innovative ways to deliver regeneration. all spend data above £500 (including all grants). Data This will require an ambitious and creative approach to are published on a month by month basis. We also the new funding sources such as new homes bonus, publish grant payments processed by the Government affordable rent/empty homes and private sector and offices on behalf of DCLG. asset based investment. I have also announced a transition We have also published all grant data for 2008-09 and fund of £5 million for growth and housing market 2009-10. renewal areas to retain key capacity to help tackle these Arm’s length bodies (including Executive agencies, issues. non-departmental bodies and public corporations) publish The new homes bonus, for example, is payable both all their spend data over £500, including any grant on new build and on bringing long-term empty homes expenditure, on their own websites, except for the Planning back into use. Stoke on Trent’s provisional new homes Inspectorate and QEII Conference Centre which publish bonus allocation for 2011-12 is £1,105,641. There will via the DCLG website. need to be a much greater emphasis on refurbishment than previously. Where local authorities in former housing market renewal areas wish to develop a transition plan Local Government: Accountancy based on this approach, my Department and the Homes and Community Agency will be ready to help. Jackie Doyle-Price: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what steps his Local Government Finance Department takes in the event of a local authority’s accounts being qualified. [44374] Conor Burns: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (1) what plans he Robert Neill: The qualification of a local authority’s has to review the funding formula for fire authorities; financial accounts is a matter for the authority themselves and their auditors. and if he will make a statement; [44525] (2) what plans he has to review the funding formula for local authorities; and if he will make a statement. Local Government: Pay [44527] Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Robert Neill: The provisional Local Government Finance Communities and Local Government what recent Settlements for 2011-12 and 2012-13 were announced representations he has received on levels of pay for local on 13 December 2010. The final Local Government authority staff; and if he will make a statement. [44316] Finance Settlement for 2011-12, setting out funding for local authorities, including police authorities and fire Robert Neill: A number of representations have been and rescue services, was approved by the House of received on levels of pay for local authority staff from Commons on 9 February 2011. Details of the final Members of Parliament, leaders of local authorities, settlement for 2011-12 and the provisional settlement local trades union branches and members of the public for 2012-13 are available at: who were primarily concerned about levels of pay for http://www.local.communities.gov.uk/finance/1112/grant.htm senior local government employees. 1127W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1128W

The level of pay of local authority staff is for each Robert Neill: This Department has not carried out an local authority to determine in the light of local assessment of this type but we would expect mineral circumstances. However, the Government expects local planning authorities in England, when granting planning authorities to show restraint particularly when setting permission for opencast mining, to set site aftercare and of senior pay and for voluntary pay reductions from the restoration conditions. Such conditions are intended to very top earners. secure the high standard of restoration of the land The Government believe that there needs to be greater concerned. Additionally there are a number of post- transparency and local democratic accountability over extraction requirements on operators arising from the remuneration given to senior employees in local government. licence to operate issued by the UK Coal Authority Provisions in the Localism Bill will ensure that in future and, if applicable, from the environmental permit issued decisions on such matters are for full council to agree by the Environment Agency. and publish a senior pay policy statement. The Secretary of State will be consulting on guidance, shortly and has Planning made clear his preference that full council vote on all new appointments over £100,000. Gregg McClymont: To ask the Secretary of State for The Government are currently consulting on a Draft Communities and Local Government what meetings he Code of Recommended Practice for Local Authorities has had with (a) English Heritage and (b) the Council on Data Transparency, which includes salary disclosure, for British Archaeology on proposed changes to the setting out the government’s preference that the threshold national planning policy framework. [44914] for disclosure should be those earning above £58,200. Robert Neill: English Heritage was one of many organisations represented at a conference on the National Non-domestic Rates Planning Policy Framework on 4 March. A meeting has not to date been held with the Council for British Jackie Doyle-Price: To ask the Secretary of State for Archaeology. Communities and Local Government what recent estimate he has made of the proportion of non- Regional Planning and Development domestic rates that is uncollected in the latest period for which figures are available; what estimate he has Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for made of the total monetary value of outstanding Communities and Local Government when he intends non-domestic rates; and if he will make a statement. to commence work on the strategic environmental [44372] assessment required prior to the revocation of regional spatial strategies following the judgment of 22 October Robert Neill: As at 31 March 2010 local authorities in 2010 in the case of Cala Homes (South) Limited, and England reported that they had collected 97.8% of the whether he plans to make provision for stakeholders national non-domestic rates due in respect of 2009-10, and the wider public to engage in the process consistent leaving 2.2% uncollected at that date. Collection of with the Government’s obligations under the Aarhus non-domestic rates continues once the financial year to Convention. [44637] which they relate has ended so this means that the final collection rate achieved is somewhere between the figures Robert Neill: I will be making a statement on this shown here and 100%. matter shortly. This information is available in Table 3 of the Statistical Release “Collection rates for council tax and non-domestic Social Rented Housing: Energy rates in England 2009-10” that is available on the Department for Communities and Local Government’s Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State website at: for Communities and Local Government how many http://www.communities.gov.uk/localgovernment/ (a) home energy efficiency and (b) micro-generation localregional/localgovernmentfinance/statistics/counciltax/ schemes have been undertaken by registered social collectionrates landlords in each of the last five years. [44659] At 31 March 2010 local authorities in England reported that a total of £1,117 million of national non-domestic Andrew Stunell: Management of their stock is a matter rates was still outstanding. This is only a snapshot of for individual registered providers of social housing the position because, as mentioned above, collection of and the information requested is not collected centrally. non-domestic rates continues once the financial year to Information on the numbers of energy efficiency measures which they relate has ended so local authorities are present in social housing up to 2008 is included in the continually working to recover outstanding non-domestic English Housing Survey 2008 Housing Stock Report, rates. which can be found at: http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/corporate/ Opencast Mining statistics/ehs2008stockreport Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State Dr Francis: To ask the Secretary of State for for Communities and Local Government what Communities and Local Government what assessment assessment he has made of the effects of reductions in he has made of the effectiveness of land remediation expenditure on (a) home energy efficiency and (b) following the closure of open cast mining operations; micro-generation schemes on social housing projects. and if he will make a statement. [42211] [44660] 1129W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1130W

Andrew Stunell: The Government’s approach to published in his Department’s resource accounts for supporting energy efficiency and micro-generation is 2009-10, whether the list included payments to bodies through the introduction of mechanisms such as the which were not registered charities. [43852] Green Deal and the renewable heat incentive which, along with the existing feed-in tariff, are expected to Robert Neill: The list of payments to charities and lead to an increase in the amount of investment in voluntary groups published in the Department’s 2009-10 energy efficiency and micro-generation in all homes, resource accounts are those made under Section 70 of including social housing. My Department is working the Charities Act 2006. The legislation grants the power with local authorities and registered providers of social to pay any charitable benevolent or philanthropic institution housing to ensure that they are well placed to use these and therefore does not only apply to organisations that mechanisms to maximise investment in their stock. are registered charities. Alongside this, while the Government’s priority is to Therefore there will be organisations to whom the deal with the deficit, we have provided £2.1 billion for department paid a grant under this power which were improvement to social housing through the Decent included in the list in the resource accounts who are not Homes Programme. The £1.6 billion of this to be allocated registered charities. to local authorities over the next four years will help make up to 150,000 council homes decent, including Thurrock Thames Gateway Development Corporation improvements to thermal comfort through the installation of modern heating systems and insulation. Jackie Doyle-Price: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what progress Sustainable Development has been made on the winding-up of the Thurrock Thames Gateway Development Corporation; and if he will make a statement. [44373] Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government if he will make it Robert Neill: Good progress is being made in respect his policy to include in proposed regulations under the of the transfer of Thurrock Thames Gateway Development Sustainable Communities Act 2007 a requirement for Corporation to Thurrock borough council. A first step the Secretary of State (a) to try to reach agreement on towards this will be the co-location of the corporation each proposal made under the Act and (b) to publish with Thurrock council at its Grays offices. This will details of the steps the Secretary of State took in enable them to work more closely together during the attempting to reach agreement with the Selector. final year of the corporation’s operation. This co-location [43353] is an important step which will generate a number of benefits, for instance by encouraging the council and Greg Clark: The Government will publish a consultation corporation to work together more effectively on seeking views on the contents of new regulations to be regeneration and planning; and by promoting the sharing made under the Sustainable Communities Act 2007, of knowledge and expertise between staff at the corporation and will make a statement shortly. and council and thereby strengthening the council’s capacity to drive regeneration. Third Sector Preparations for an orderly transition of the corporation’s projects and planning functions before 1 April 2012 are Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for underway. Communities and Local Government what steps his Department has taken to support the big society Travellers: Caravan Sites initiative. [42646] Harriett Baldwin: To ask the Secretary of State for Greg Clark: The Department for Communities and Communities and Local Government when his Local Government is supporting the big society through Department plans to publish new guidance for local the Localism Bill in which we are introducing major councils on Gypsy and Traveller sites. [44789] reforms to public services and providing new rights for communities. Through these structural reforms, promoting Robert Neill: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer I transparency and strengthening local democracy, we gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Witham (Priti are making Government and local councils more responsive Patel) on 17 January 2011, Official Report, column to local residents as well as reducing burdens and control 497W. from Whitehall. This will free people to take more control of their lives, the places they live and local Mr Gray: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities public services. and Local Government whether national policy on We are also working to remove bureaucratic barriers planning applications for Gypsy and Traveller sites is that hold back local action, and have opened up a contained in circular ODPM 01/2006; what plans he ‘Barrier Busting’ website for communities to identify has to revoke such guidance; and what consideration he them. We have also been working with four ‘vanguard’ has given to replacing it as a consequence of the abolition communities, which the Prime Minster described as of regional spatial strategies. [44916] ‘training grounds of change’, to help local communities build their idea of the big society. Robert Neill: Current national planning policy for Gypsy and Traveller sites is set out in Circular 01/2006: Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Secretary of State for “Planning for Gypsy and Traveller Caravan Sites”. The Communities and Local Government with reference to Government have announced their intention to withdraw the list of payments to charities and voluntary groups Circular 01/2006. We will replace it with a fair, short, 1131W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1132W light-touch new policy. This is being done as part of a ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS broader package of reforms, including the abolition of Regional Strategies, to consolidate and streamline planning Abandoned Vehicles policy, decentralise the planning system and strengthen the role of elected councils. There will be a full public consultation on our proposed new planning policy for Mr Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for Traveller sites shortly. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many abandoned vehicles were recorded in (a) Suffolk, (b) Travellers: Finance Bedfordshire, (c) Cambridgeshire, (d) Essex, (e) Hertfordshire, (f) Norfolk and (g) England in each year since 1997. [44238] Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what funding his Department gave to (a) Traveller groups and (b) Richard Benyon: Figures on abandoned vehicles were associated representative bodies providing support or reported by local authorities to DEFRA between 2000 assistance to Traveller groups in (i) 2008-09 and (ii) and 2004 in the Municipal Waste Management Survey 2009-10; and how much and for what purpose in each and from 2004 to 2008 via WasteDataFlow, and are case. [43854] available on the DEFRA website at: http://www.defra.gov.uk/evidence/statistics/environment/ Andrew Stunell: The information is as follows: waste/wrabanvehicles.htm 2008-09: Nil More recent data (up to June 2010) on the number of 2009-10: The Rural Media Company—£112,815.00—to fund abandoned vehicles collected by local authorities can be publication of the Travellers Times Friends, Families and downloaded from the WasteDataFlow website directly Travellers—£132,000—to fund support to Gypsy and Traveller at: groups http://www.wastedataflow.co.uk/Register.aspx Vacant Land As DEFRA only began compiling figures on abandoned vehicles by way of the Municipal Waste Management Alec Shelbrooke: To ask the Secretary of State for Survey in 2000-01, numbers prior to then are not available. Communities and Local Government what (a) legislation and (b) guidance issued by his Department Agriculture: Subsidies determines responsibility for preventing building on greenfield land when brownfield land is available for Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: To ask the Secretary of State development; and whether he has any plans to amend for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many such responsibilities following enactment of the claims to the Rural Payments Agency for Single Farm Localism Bill. [44970] Payments are outstanding from 2010; and when she expects such payments to be made. [44250] Greg Clark: Under the Town and Country Planning Acts, planning decisions are the responsibility of local planning authorities in the first instance, having regard Mr Paice: Latest figures show that as at 28 February to national planning policy. 2011, the Rural Payments Agency (RPA) had made The National Planning Policy Framework will set out payments totalling £1.435 billion to 95,306 English the Government’s planning for housing policies. A full farmers. consultation on the policies within the framework will Processing now continues on 10,000 or so claims be issued this summer. The current planning policy where no payment has been made to date and RPA is position on housing is set out in Planning Policy Statement working to validate these as quickly as possible. Some 3: Housing. of these are complex cases involving probate, business partnership changes and domestic issues. It is likely that Voluntary Work and Charitable Donations work on these claims will reveal that some will not be eligible for payment. Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for For further details, I refer my hon. Friend to the Communities and Local Government whether his written statement I made on 4 March 2011, Official Department has a policy to encourage its employees to Report, columns 47-48WS, on this issue. (a) volunteer and (b) donate via payroll giving. [43232] Aviation: Noise Robert Neill: The Department does have a policy to encourage employees to volunteer. Staff are entitled to spend up to six days a year volunteering to support Mr Gyimah: To ask the Secretary of State for charities and other civil society organisations. Our staff Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will include volunteering policy meets the recent Government in the next edition of her Guidance Note on the duties commitment to allow staff across the civil service to of relevant authorities to have regard to the purposes of volunteer at least one day each year. National Parks and Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty The Department also participates in the ‘Give As an increased emphasis on the requirement to ensure You Earn’ (GAYE) Payroll Giving Scheme which enables tranquillity in respect of noise from aviation. [45226] employees to make donations to charity direct from their salary. The scheme is administered by the Charity Richard Benyon: I have no present plans to update the Aid Foundation. guidance. 1133W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1134W

Beef: Imports However, DEFRA has previously established the quantity of milk and other dairy produce purchased from January Sandra Osborne: To ask the Secretary of State for 2010 to January 2011 by its Nobel House, headquarters. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what her policy This purchased 41,600 pints of milk (23,640 litres) in is on the import of (a) beef and (b) pork from Brazil. this period. In addition, it purchased 1,040 kg of yoghurt, [45211] 1,200 kg of cheese and 205 kg of butter. These products are supplied by Brakes Chilled. The milk is sourced Mr Paice: The importation of meat from third countries, from Yew Tree House Farm in Lancashire. The average including Brazil must be in accordance with harmonised price paid per litre of milk is commercially confidential. rules laid down in European Union legislation. Imported It is not possible, to establish what amounts of milk meat must: individual farm businesses supply to public sector come from an approved country; organisations and we are therefore similarly unable to be accompanied by appropriate animal and public health make specific estimates of the costs of production or certification; and the prices received for dairy farmers supplying the must come from EU approved plants in the exporting country; public sector. meat from Brazil must also come from an approved holding. However, DEFRA has estimated the following costs1 All meat imported from third countries must be of milk production for 2009-10 using data from the accompanied by veterinary certification. This must confirm Farm Business Survey in England2. These estimates are that the meat is derived from animals that have been representative of the vast majority of milk produced in subjected to a veterinary inspection during the 24 hours England and will include a small proportion of organic prior to slaughter and showed no signs of disease. EU production. The average cost of production was around import rules also require that all bovine meat imported 22.5 pence per litre. from Brazil be deboned and matured, a process which produces an acid change which inactivates any foot and Proportion of milk produced Cost of production in pence per under these costs in 2009-10 mouth disease virus present. litre (percentage) All consignments of meat must enter the EU at designated border inspection posts, where they are subject Less than 20ppl 22 to veterinary inspections. All consignments are subject 20ppl to less than 22.5ppl 25 to documentary and identity checks and at least 20% of 22.5ppl to less than 25ppl 27 consignments are subject to physical checks. More than 25ppl 26 The importation of pork from Brazil is not permitted. Source: Farm Business Survey, England 2009-10 Bovine Tuberculosis: Disease Control DEFRA collects statistical data every month on the price received by dairy farmers. The latest available Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for figure is the January 2011 average milk price, which Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what the reason stood at 25.72ppl, 4.26% higher than January 2010. The is for the time taken to publish the response to her average milk price for 2010 was 24.66ppl. Department’s consultation on a badger control policy; 1 The costs included in this analysis cover fixed and variable costs and when she expects to publish the response. [43506] and imputed charges for unpaid labour and an imputed rent on owned land. Some of the costs are allocated to the dairy enterprise Mr Paice: We received a large number of responses to by arithmetic estimation rather than directly from the farm’s our consultation, which we are considering carefully. accounts. This is a difficult and sensitive issue and we need to get 2 The Farm Business Survey sample covers businesses with a it right. We will announce our decision as part of a Standard Labour Requirement (SLR) of at least 0.5, i.e. a size comprehensive and balanced TB Eradication Programme considered sufficient to occupy a farmer for at least half their time. for England as soon as possible. Dairy Products Thomas Docherty: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what guidance Thomas Docherty: To ask the Secretary of State for she has issued to public bodies in England on purchasing Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) what estimate milk produced in the UK; and how much of the milk she has made of the quantity of (a) milk and (b) other procured for the public sector is labelled with the (a) dairy produce Government bodies purchased in the last country of origin and (b) name of the supplying farm. 12 months for which figures are available; by whom [44683] such produce is supplied; what the farms of origin are; and what average price was paid per litre of milk in that Mr Paice: Information on the quantity of milk purchased period; [44682] by Government bodies, the suppliers and the name of the supplying farm is not collated centrally. (2) what estimate she has made of the (a) cost of production for dairy farmers supplying (i) cheese and However, we are shortly to publish Government Buying (ii) milk to the public sector and (b) the price that they Standards for food which will be mandatory for central received in the latest period for which figures are Government and promoted to the wider public sector. available. [44684] Departments have been advised that they should be able to report, by June this year, baseline data for compliance Mr Paice: No estimate has been made of the quantity with these standards. of milk or other dairy produce purchased by all Among the requirements of the Government Buying Government bodies. Standards are; that all food procured by Government 1135W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1136W should, subject to no overall increase in costs, meet Forestry Commission: Manpower British or equivalent standards of production; and in line with the industry principles on country of origin Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, labelling, caterers should be able to indicate the origin Food and Rural Affairs what representations she has of the meat, meat products and dairy products either on received from the devolved administrations on planned the menu or accompanying literature, or at least when changes in staffing at the Forestry Commission. [43729] the information is requested by the consumer. Departmental Carbon Emissions Mr Paice: It is for the Forestry Commission to decide where its staff should be based after the conclusion of its consultation with staff and the Trade Unions. Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much her The Scottish Executive wrote to the Secretary of Department spent on carbon offsetting in each of the State on this issue in February. last three years; and to which companies payments for Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, carbon offsetting were made in each such year. [40285] Food and Rural Affairs what discussions she has had Richard Benyon: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury on the implications given by my hon. Friend the Member for Bexhill and for her Department’s budget of planned changes in Battle (Gregory Barker) on 16 February 2011, Official staffing at the Forestry Commission. [43823] Report, column 853W. Mr Paice: There have been no such discussions with Departmental Leaseback Arrangements the Chief Secretary to the Treasury. Forestry Commission: Redundancy Stewart Hosie: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assets her Department has sold and leased back over the last Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for 12 months; what the sale price was of each asset so sold; Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether she and what estimate she has made of the cost to the intends to proceed with the proposed redundancies of public purse of leasing back each such asset over the Forestry Commission staff based in Edinburgh. [44111] period of the lease. [45090] Mr Paice: The Forestry Commission is currently Richard Benyon: None. consulting staff on new organisational structures in response to the 2010 spending review settlement, ft will Exmoor National Park be for the Forestry Commission to decide where its staff should be based after the conclusion of this consultation Mr Liddell-Grainger: To ask the Secretary of State with staff and the trade unions. for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate she has made of the number of visitors to Forests Exmoor National Park in each of the last five years. [44244] Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs which organisations Richard Benyon: No specific estimate has been made her Department consulted in developing its policy on for each of the last five years. The estimated annual the sale of the forest estate in accordance with paragraph number of visitor days spent in the Exmoor National 2.4 of the Compact between Government and civil Park lies somewhere between 1.4 million and 2 million. society organisations; what feedback her Department has given to the consultees in accordance with paragraph Fisheries: Northern Ireland 2.5 of the Compact; and what assessment she has made of the effect of that policy on local efforts to inspire and Lady Hermon: To ask the Secretary of State for encourage social action and to empower communities Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what meetings in accordance with paragraph 2.2 of the Compact. she has had with representatives of the Northern [44444] Ireland fishing industry since her appointment. [44562] Mr Paice: The consultation on the future of the Richard Benyon: As UK Fisheries Minister, I met public forest estate has ended, as announced by the representatives of both the Anglo-North Irish Fish Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Producers’ Organisation (ANIFPO) and the Northern Affairs, the right hon. Member for Meriden (Mrs Spelman), Irish Fish Producers’ Organisation (NIFPO), during on 17 February. Over 300 organisations, plus all local the negotiations surrounding the setting of fishing authorities and over 7,000 private individuals were included opportunities for 2011, at the end of last year. in the formal consultation; a list is available on DEFRA’s This included a visit to Belfast in late October, for a website. meeting hosted by Michelle Gildernew MP MLA, Northern All responses received prior to cancellation of the Ireland’s Minister for Agriculture and Rural Development, consultation will be analysed and considered by the at which a number of local fishermen were also present. Independent Panel on Forestry. This panel is being I also regularly meet with senior members of the National established to advise on the future direction of forestry Federation of Fishermen’s Organisations (NFFO), and woodland policy in England, on the role of the including one who specifically represents Northern Irish Forestry Commission, and on the role of the public fishing interests. forest estate. It will report its findings in the autumn. 1137W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1138W

Forests: Land £ National Park 2010-11 2011-12 Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many acres Broads 4,229,502 4,002,149 of forest land the Forestry Commission owns in (a) Dartmoor 4,739,642 4,484,867 West Sussex and (b) Mid Sussex constituency; and Exmoor 3,978,580 3,764,715 what the location is of each such landholding. [44690] Lake District1 7,171,279 6,549,233 New Forest2 4,978,096 3,811,570 Mr Paice: The public forest estate is owned by the Northumberland 3,311,334 3,133,337 Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural North York Moors 5,428,266 5,136,475 Affairs, and placed at the disposal of the Forestry Peak District 8,298,814 7,852,720 Commissioners under section (3)1 of the Forestry Act South Downs3 8,540,000 11,373,133 1967. Yorkshire Dales 5,398,563 5,108,369 The following table lists the woodland in West Sussex Total 56,074,076 55,216,567 that forms part of the public forest estate. None of this 1 Lake District grant for 2010-11 includes £0.25 million funding for is within Mid Sussex constituency. repairs to flood damaged rights of way network. 2 New Forest grant for 2010-11 includes £0.75 million funding for new offices. Grid reference Wood name Area (hectares) 3 South Downs grant for 2010-11 includes £1.25 million funding for SU798119 Marden 394 new offices and for 2011-12 includes DCLG transfer of £4.475 million for planning responsibilities. SU758173 West Harting Down 318 TQ214310 St. Leonard’s Forest 244 Natural England: Research SU855298 Rogate 129 SU990113 Houghton 233 Sheryll Murray: To ask the Secretary of State for SU949115 Eartham 260 Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) what recent SU920122 Selhurst 211 assessment she has made of the effectiveness of Natural SU897146 Charlton 997 England’s approach to and processes for quality assurance SU855298 Rogate 202 of evidence and advice; and if she will make a statement; TQ276336 Tilgate Forest 149 [42161] (2) what assessment she has made of the effectiveness Labelling of Natural England’s quality assurance process for the evidence and advice produced by it to her Department; Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for and if she will make a statement. [42163] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent assessment she has made of the effectiveness of the Richard Benyon: Non-departmental public bodies, regulatory framework governing country of origin labelling. such as Natural England, operate with a degree of [44694] independence according to their own particular governance arrangements and are accountable for their own processes, Mr Paice: The current EU regulatory framework conduct and decisions. Natural England’s quality assurance governing country of origin labelling needs to be improved. of its evidence and advice is provided primarily by its This is why we are pressing for clearer origin labelling in specialist staff, often working in partnership with external negotiations on the new EU Food Information Regulation. experts or bodies. Overview of the quality of the evidence, We have been successful in extending mandatory origin and the way that it is used, is provided by Natural labelling to all fresh meat with the possibility, subject to England’s Executive Director of Science and Evidence, a review, of extending origin labelling to other foods. supported by an external Scientific Advisory Committee. Negotiations are continuing and it is not expected that DEFRA’s chief scientific adviser (CSA), Professor the regulation will be adopted and published until early Bob Watson, provides an independent challenge to the 2012. evidence underpinning policy decisions. It is part of his In the meantime, the Government welcome the voluntary role to assure himself that policy is informed by high-quality, origin information principles for meat and dairy products robust evidence. Where specific issues are brought to developed by industry, which will help ensure that the CSA’s attention, or where evidence and advice is consumers can have confidence about the origin claims particularly complex or uncertain, the CSA will assess being made. and give advice on them, to Ministers or senior policy National Parks: Finance colleagues. Professor Watson is commissioning an independent Mary Creagh: To ask the Secretary of State for review of evidence and advice provided by Natural Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much her England, and its use by DEFRA, in relation to a case Department has given in grants to the National Parks study of marine candidate/possible special areas of in 2010-11; how much she has allocated for funding to conservation. Quality assurance processes will also be the National Parks in 2010-11 as a result of the considered as part of the review. comprehensive spending review; and if she will make a New Forest: Hunting statement. [45183]

Richard Benyon: The grants given to each national Mr Chope: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, park authority in 2010-11 and the grants allocated for Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to the answer of 2011-12 are set out in the following table. 1 March 2011, Official Report, columns 311-2W, on 1139W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1140W

New Forest, what her policy is on whether drag hunting companies in England. The regulations are currently in the New Forest constitutes a public benefit. [44469] being considered in accordance with the Government’s principles for better regulation. Mr Paice [holding answer 7 March 2011]: Drag hunting in the New Forest enjoys significant local support and Shale Gas participation as well as contributing to economic activity and employment in related enterprises. In this context, Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for it could be seen as being a public benefit. The Forestry Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what meetings Panel will advise the Secretary of State for Environment, have taken place at her Department at (a) ministerial Food and Rural Affairs on all aspects of public benefits and (b) official level to review Environment Agency when it reports later this year. preparedness for on-shore drilling for shale gas and coal bed methane using hydraulic fracturing. [37894] Rural Payments Agency: Correspondence Richard Benyon: DEFRA officials had informal Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: To ask the Secretary of State discussions in January with the Environment Agency for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether the on preparedness for on-shore drilling for shale gas and Rural Payments Agency has targets in place for the coal bed methane using hydraulic fracturing. time taken to respond to correspondence. [44251] All onshore oil and gas projects, including shale gas exploration and development, are subject to appropriate Mr Paice: The Rural Payments Agency has a published environmental controls, including scrutiny by the target to reply to correspondence within 15 working Environment Agency. They require local planning days of its receipt. permission before drilling activities can start. Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: To ask the Secretary of State DEFRA Ministers have not held meetings to review for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs for what Environment Agency preparedness on the matter. reasons claimants are not able to communicate with the Rural Payments Agency by telephone. [44262] Supermarkets: Refrigerators

Mr Paice: Claimants are able to communicate with Gordon Henderson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Rural Payments Agency (RPA) by telephone. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will bring The agency provides a number of telephone numbers forward proposals to encourage supermarkets to which its customers may use to contact it These numbers increase the number of refrigerated display cabinets are published on its website and in scheme guidance. that they remanufacture. [44570] The agency includes contact number details on letters sent to individual customers. Richard Benyon: DEFRA is not proposing to introduce The RPA also provides a number of help lines covering any specific measures to increase the number of refrigerated specific areas of its work, details of which are also display cabinets that supermarkets remanufacture. published on its website. However, the UK implementation of the EC Waste Electrical and Electronic Equipment (WEEE) Directive Sewers encourages the preparation for reuse of these cabinets, and WEEE more widely, as reuse counts towards the Andrea Leadsom: To ask the Secretary of State for achievement of the European Commission’s collection Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will and recovery targets. The UK Government are also estimate the proportion of sewers that are properly promoting the preparing for reuse of WEEE by providing maintained. [44461] financial and other support for the development of a Publicly Available Specification. This provides a process Richard Benyon: Water and sewerage companies have management specification for the reuse of used, and a statutory duty to cleanse and maintain approximately waste, electrical and electronic equipment. 323,000 km of public sewers in England and Wales which comprise the public sewerage system. Timber: EU Action This equates to less than 50% of the estimated overall length of sewers and drains in England and Wales, the Sarah Newton: To ask the Secretary of State for remainder of which are subject to whatever maintenance Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when she plans arrangements their respective owners consider appropriate. to make an announcement on proposals for implementation No data exists on the state of repair of the private of the EU Timber Regulation. [44971] sewerage network. Mr Paice: We will discuss and agree the detailed Andrea Leadsom: To ask the Secretary of State for implementing regulations to prevent the first placing of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent illegally logged timber on the EU market with other steps she has taken to reduce the number of unadopted member states and the European Commission over the sewers. [44462] next 18 months. Once agreed, the necessary secondary legislation will be put in place to implement the regulation Richard Benyon: The Government have consulted on in the UK. Further details, including our plans for draft regulations to implement the transfer of all private public consultation, will be announced in due course. sewers and lateral drains (linked to the public sewerage Under its provisions, the EU timber regulation must be system) into the ownership of the water and sewerage implemented by 3 March 2013. 1141W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1142W

Timber: Imports the Waste Incineration Directive will apply both to the plants initially producing, as well as subsequently using, Gordon Birtwistle: To ask the Secretary of State for these products. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps her Water Charges Department is taking to reduce levels of imports of illegally-logged timber. [43285] Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will assess the effects of Mr Paice: We will put in place the necessary legislation water metering tariffs and charging policies on levels of to implement the provisions of the EU Timber Regulation household income in each income decile of the population. in the United Kingdom. The forthcoming Due Diligence [44153] Regulations prohibit the first-placing of illegal timber on the EU market, restricting its purchase, possession Richard Benyon: I refer the hon. Member to the and sale down the supply chain. This will be complemented answer I gave him on 28 February 2011, Official Report, by the Forest Law Enforcement Governance and Trade column 68W. (FLEGT) Regulation, which requires timber imports from countries which have signed a Voluntary Partnership Water Supply: Mutual Societies Agreement with the EU to carry a licence to prove legality. These new legislative measures underline our Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for commitment to eliminate illegal timber from the UK Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will encourage market. mutual forms of ownership in the running of water and sewerage supplies; and if she will make a statement. Veterinary Services: Public Expenditure [44988]

Mary Creagh: To ask the Secretary of State for Richard Benyon: Maintaining a regulatory system Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many veterinary that affords water companies access to appropriate finance surgeons of each grade her Department expects to at affordable prices is a key priority for the Government. directly employ in each year of the comprehensive Any water company making such a proposal would spending review period. [44805] have to satisfy Ofwat that it will be able to continue to access the finance it needs to provide water and sewerage Mr Paice: Veterinary surgeons are currently employed services in its appointed area. in DEFRA and also the Animal Health Agency, Veterinary Laboratories Agency and the Veterinary Medicines Directorate. FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE DEFRA and its agencies are currently considering how to implement its spending review settlement. To Afghanistan: Christianity live within this smaller budget we know that we will have to reduce the number of staff across our network. Guto Bebb: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign However, at this stage, it is not possible to predict how and Commonwealth Affairs what representations he many veterinary surgeons will be directly employed by has made to the Government of Afghanistan on the the Department and its agencies. detention and sentencing of Shoaib Said Assadullah. [45237] Waste Management Alistair Burt: We are working closely with international partners to monitor developments and raise issues on Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, cases concerning the freedom of religion with the Afghan Food and Rural Affairs what assessment she has made Government. of the compatibility of the gasification process for We continue to remind the Afghan Government of waste with the provisions of European directives on the their duty to abide by their national and international incineration of waste. [43997] commitments on freedom of religion and belief. During his visit to Afghanistan in January, the UK Attorney- Richard Benyon: Thermal treatment includes both General raised the issue of freedom of religion with the incineration/combustion and other treatments, such as Afghan Attorney-General. gasification and pyrolysis. However, if the activity involves only thermal treatment in this broader sense (as distinct Burma: Asylum from incineration/combustion), then it will be subject to the Waste Incineration Directive only ‘insofar as the Jeremy Lefroy: To ask the Secretary of State for substances resulting from the treatment are subsequently Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent discussions incinerated’. This ensures that the Waste Incineration his Department has had with the Government of India Directive covers processes such as pyrolysis and gasification, on the provision of assistance to Rohingya refugees unless their purpose is the manufacture of products recently arrived in the (a) Aceh and (b) Andaman and with no resulting release of combustion gases. Nicobar Islands. [44924] Therefore, if a gasification/pyrolysis plant produces a number of products, one or more of which are subsequently Alistair Burt: We are deeply concerned over the recent burnt, then the Waste Incineration Directive applies to flow of Rohingya people who have fled Burma to the whole plant. In cases where the products are burnt escape human rights abuses. At the end of February away from the gasification/pyrolysis plant (remote units), 2011, following the arrival of refugees in Aceh, our 1143W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1144W embassy in Jakarta met Indonesian authorities and the Marine Conservation Society’s list of fish to avoid and International Organisation for Migration where we (ii) complied with sustainability standards indicated by discussed the process of registering the refugees with inclusion in either the Marine Conservation Society’s the UN High Commissioner for Refugees. list of fish to eat or by the list of fish species certified by We have not discussed the issue of Rohingya refugees the Marine Stewardship Council in (A) 2010 and (B) with the Government of India bilaterally but we support 2011 to date. [45033] the European Commission and UN programmes for Rohingya refugees through the UK’s core funding to Alistair Burt: The proportion of the seafood procured the EU and the UN. for the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) in the UK by its contracted supplier is as follows: Croatia: EU Enlargement (i) No products are procured that are on the Marine Conservation Society (MSC)’s ‘Fish to Avoid List’. Stephen Phillips: To ask the Secretary of State for (ii) 40% of products are on the MCS’s list offish to eat of Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent which 30% is certified by the Marine Stewardship Council. assessment he has made of progress on the accession of The above data relates to both 2010 and 2011 to date. Croatia to the EU. [44680] Data for the agencies and non-departmental public bodies for which the FCO is responsible and for overseas Mr Lidington: Croatia’s accession process was assessed Posts is not held centrally and could be provided only at in the European Commission’s annual progress report disproportionate cost. published in November 2010, and scrutinised by member states at the EU General Affairs Council in December Departmental Security 2010. The Council Conclusions stated, “The Council welcomes Croatia’s good overall progress towards Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for meeting the membership criteria. Accession negotiations have reached their final stage and preparations for the drafting of the Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs for what reasons Accession Treaty have progressed steadily. Conclusion of the persons not employed by Government departments or negotiations is within reach.” agencies are issued with passes entitling them to enter We fully endorse this assessment. his Department’s premises. [43206] We work closely with other EU member states and Alistair Burt: Passes may be issued to those who are with the European Commission to encourage and support required to make frequent visits to specific Government progress in Croatia’s accession process. Croatia has now sites, subject to security checks. opened all of the substantive chapters, of which it has closed 28. But Croatia still has work to do, particularly European Convention on Human Rights on judicial reform, public administration reform, tackling corruption and organised crime. Full co-operation with Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign the International Criminal Tribunal for Former Yugoslavia and Commonwealth Affairs whether his Department (ICTY) is a requirement for the closure of negotiations. has plans to reform the jurisdiction of the European The Commission published an interim report on Court of Justice in its interpretation of the European Croatia’s progress on chapter 23 (judiciary and fundamental Convention on Human Rights. [44152] rights) on 2 March 2011. The Government welcome the report and Croatia’s continued engagement on the accession Mr Lidington: The European Court of Human Rights process. The report will be discussed by EU member not the European Court of Justice is responsible for states over the coming weeks. ensuring compliance with obligations undertaken by Departmental Billing the Contracting Parties to the European Convention on Human Rights and has jurisdiction on the interpretation and application of the Convention. Stewart Hosie: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what proportion Fundamental rights are guaranteed by the European of invoices from suppliers his Department paid within Convention on Human Rights and as they result from 10-days of receipt in January and February 2011. the constitutional traditions common to the member [45069] states also constitute general principles of EU law. The Treaty of Lisbon provided for the EU’s accession Alistair Burt: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office to the European Convention on Human Rights (under (FCO) supports the Government’s prompt payment Article 6(2) Treaty on European Union) and negotiations initiative and makes every effort to pay supplier invoices for the EU’s accession are currently ongoing. However, within five working days. the Government will need to ensure accession will not The FCO paid 93% and 90.8% of supplier invoices affect the competences of the Union or the powers of within 10-days of receipt in January 2011 and February its institutions and will not affect the situation of the 2011 respectively. EU member states in relation to the Convention, as agreed in Protocol 8 A2 to the Treaty on European Departmental Food Union.

Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign European Parliament and Commonwealth Affairs if he will estimate the proportion of the seafood procured for (a) his Department, Conor Burns: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign (b) its agencies and (c) the non-departmental public and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the answer of bodies for which he is responsible that (i) was on the 8 February 2011, Official Report, column 219W, on the 1145W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1146W

European Parliament: location, with which members of who were evacuated from Libya on flights chartered by the (a) European Parliament, (b) European Commission the Foreign and Commonwealth Office did so without and (c) Council of Ministers he has discussed the charge. location of the European Parliament; and what was discussed at each meeting. [44665] Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many British Mr Lidington: The Government are committed to citizens resident in Libya have contacted his Department reducing inefficient and wasteful spending by the EU in the last three weeks. [43889] and in the coalition agreement have committed to pressing for the European Parliament to have only one seat, in Brussels. I have met with many people with an interest Alistair Burt: Over 750 British nationals have contacted in this issue including ministerial counterparts in other the Foreign and Commonwealth Office in the last three EU member states, European Commissioners and Members weeks. of the European Parliament. Mr Gregory Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State Israel: Business Initiatives for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what measures are being taken by the British Embassy in Tripoli to Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for assist UK nationals on the Libyan/Algerian border. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the [44293] answer of 31 January 2011, Official Report, column 498W, on Israel: business initiatives, what funding his Alistair Burt: We continue to provide full consular Department is providing to support joint business support to British nationals in Algeria. Our embassy in initiatives between Israeli citizens resident in Israel and Tripoli suspended operations on 26 February 2011 due Palestinian citizens resident in the West Bank. [45248] to security concerns. Since then our representation has been undertaken by the Turkish embassy in Tripoli. We Alistair Burt: I refer the hon. Member to my response have concentrated efforts on the Libyan borders with of 17 February 2011, Official Report, column 1000W. Egypt and Tunisia but our embassy in Algiers continues Italy: British Nationals Abroad to provide consular support for British nationals requiring assistance in Algeria. Naomi Long: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent reports he has Mr Frank Roy: To ask the Secretary of State for received on the operation legislation in Italy on the legal Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many UK rights of foreign workers. [44769] nationals have been evacuated from Tripoli through (a) scheduled and (b) chartered flights arranged by his Mr Lidington: I have had reports from our embassy Department since 15 February 2011. [44410] in Rome and Professor David Petrie, the chair of the Association of Foreign Lecturers in Italy (ALLSI), Alistair Burt: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office concerning Article 26 of ‘Law 240 of 30 December (FCO) organised six flights which departed Tripoli. 2010’ enforced on 29 January. Our embassy is following-up Around 390 British nationals were evacuated on these with the Italian Government to discuss the implications flights. It is likely that British nationals left on scheduled of the law on the Lettori. flights without formal notification to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office during this period. We assisted Naomi Long: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign British nationals who had requested help to leave Libya and Commonwealth Affairs what recent discussions he by facilitating a range of exit routes including arranging has had on the rights of UK citizens teaching in universities seats for British nationals on flights organised by other in Italy. [44770] countries.

Mr Lidington: UK officials in Rome met Professor Mr Frank Roy: To ask the Secretary of State for David Petrie, Chair of the Association of Foreign Lecturers Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what the cost to in Italy (ALLSI), on 28 February 2011. We are arranging the public purse has been of chartering aircraft to a roundtable for members of ALLSI and the Italian evacuate UK nationals from Tripoli since 21 February Government. I will also be writing to the European 2011. [44411] Commissioner for Employment, Laszlo Andor, to bring this issue to his attention. Alistair Burt: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office Libya: British Nationals Abroad (FCO) organised six flights which departed Tripoli. The provisional total cost of the flights chartered by the Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for FCO departing from Tripoli is approximately £740,000 Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many British but the final total will not be confirmed until we receive nationals who used flights from Libya chartered by his final invoices from the airlines. Department have (a) paid and (b) not paid for the flight. [43828] Mr Frank Roy: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs on how many Alistair Burt: In an evacuation, the Government will scheduled flights with which airlines his Department pay for transport out of the affected country if there are booked seats for the evacuation of UK nationals from no commercial means available. All British nationals Tripoli in February 2011. [44412] 1147W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1148W

Alistair Burt: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office Mr Bellingham: Corruption is one of the biggest (FCO)’s evacuation of British nationals from Tripoli obstacles to Nigeria achieving it’s full potential. During was primarily conducted through chartering civilian my recent visit to Nigeria, I raised the issue with a range and military flights. It is likely that British nationals left of interlocutors. I welcomed efforts by federal and state on scheduled flights without formal notification to the Governments to address corruption; highlighting that FCO. We assisted British nationals who had requested tackling corruption is crucial to Nigeria’s political and help to leave Libya by facilitating a range of exit routes economic development and creating an enabling business including arranging seats for British nationals on flights environment. But I also stressed that a lot of work organised by other countries. remains to be completed to further tackle corruption. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office, along with Libya: Official Visits other Government Departments, including the Department for International Development (DFID), are assisting Governments at both levels, as well as with civil society Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State and the private sector on transparency in public finances for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he has and good governance. DFID has given technical support any plans to visit Libya. [44891] to the Economic and Financial Crimes Commission, Nigeria’s main anti-corruption agency. Mr Jeremy Browne: I do not currently have any plans to visit Libya. Sri Lanka: Politics and Government Libya: Politics and Government Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what reports he Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State has received of the effect on national reconciliation in for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he has Sri Lanka of the creation of high security zones in the made an assessment on the impact of recent events in north and east of that country. [45111] Libya on the Israeli and Palestinian peace process; and if he will make a statement. [44888] Alistair Burt: During my visit to Sri Lanka last month I talked to resettled communities about their Mr Jeremy Browne: As the Secretary of State for efforts to recover from the war and rebuild their lives. I Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. am aware that high security zones displace people from Friend the Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), their home area and may therefore make it harder for said on 8 March 2011, the peace process must not people to return to their normal lives. become a casualty of uncertainty in the region. Instead, We understand that the Sri Lankan Government efforts must be redoubled to move the peace process intend to reduce the number and size of high security forward and the British Government believes that the zones and we welcome the relaxation of some of these parties must recommit themselves to negotiations as areas in Jaffna over the past months. Our Department soon as possible, to do so on the basis of clear principles for International Development is contributing a further with international support, and to strive for a breakthrough £3 million grant for demining and clearance of unexploded this year. ordinance to ensure the return of residents to these We want to see a return to negotiations, as soon as areas. possible, on the basis of clear parameters. Clear parameters are important for negotiations to make progress. We Tunisia: British Nationals Abroad have set out our views with France and Germany on what those parameters should be, covering borders, Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for security, Jerusalem and the refugee question. We will Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what support his continue to work with the US and other key partners to Department has given to British nationals in (a) Tunisia secure progress. and (b) Egypt since 21 February 2011. [43831]

Nigeria: Corruption Alistair Burt: We have provided a wide range of consular support to British nationals in both Tunisia Pauline Latham: To ask the Secretary of State for and Egypt during this period, including assisting their Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he has departure from those countries. had discussions with the government of Nigeria on Diepreye Alamieyeseigha. [45143] Turkey: EU Enlargement

Mr Bellingham: Neither the Secretary of State for Stephen Phillips: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent assessment Friend the Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), he has made of progress on the accession of Turkey to nor I have had any discussions with the Government of the EU. [44679] Nigeria on Diepreye Alamieyeseigha. Mr Lidington: Turkey’s accession process was assessed Pauline Latham: To ask the Secretary of State for in the European Commission’s annual progress report Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps his published in November 2010, and scrutinised by member Department has taken to assist Nigeria in tackling states at the EU General Affairs Council in December internal corruption. [45144] 2010. The Council Conclusions stated, 1149W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1150W

“The Council welcomes Turkey’s continued commitment to HEALTH the negotiation process and the political reform agenda. The constitutional reform package is an important step in the right Alcoholic Drinks: Misuse direction as it addresses a number of priorities of the Accession Partnership in the area of judiciary, fundamental rights and Mr Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health public administration. Implementation in line with European how many admissions to hospital with an alcohol-related standards will be key.” diagnosis via accident and emergency departments involving people under the age of 18 years there were in the (a) We fully endorse this assessment. East of England Strategic Health Authority area and (b) Suffolk Primary Care Trust area in each year since We work closely with other EU member states and 2007-08. [45147] with the European Commission to encourage and support progress in Turkey’s accession process. Turkey has now Anne Milton: An estimate of the number of alcohol- opened 13 out of 35 accession chapters, of which it has related emergency admissions to hospital via accident closed one. Turkey is currently working on the reforms and emergency that are wholly attributable to alcohol necessary to open chapter 8—competition policy. We and those that are wholly or partially attributable to are encouraging Turkey to accelerate domestic reforms alcohol for East of England Strategic Health Authority in line with the EU acquis. We support Turkey’s engagement (SHA) and Suffolk Primary Care Trust (PCT) for people in support of the Cyprus settlement process and call for aged under 18 for the period 2007-08 to 2009-10 is given Turkey to implement the Additional Ankara Protocol. in the following table.

2009-10 2008-09 2007-08 Estimated Estimated Estimated Estimated admissions Estimated admissions Estimated admissions admissions wholly partially or wholly admissions wholly partially or wholly admissions wholly partially or wholly attributable to attributable to attributable to attributable to attributable to attributable to alcohol alcohol alcohol alcohol alcohol alcohol

NHS East of 384 730 390 699 535 866 England Suffolk PCT 52 91 52 83 55 92 Notes: 1. Estimate of alcohol-related admissions The number of alcohol-related admissions is based on the methodology developed by the North West Public Health Observatory (NWPHO), which uses 48 indicators for alcohol-related illnesses, determining the proportion of a wide range of diseases and injuries that can be partly attributed to alcohol as well as those that are, by definition, wholly attributable to alcohol. Further information on these proportions can be found at: www.nwph.net/nwpho/publications/AlcoholAttributableFractions.pdf The application of the NWPHO methodology was updated in summer 2010 and is now available directly from Hospital Episode Statistics (HES). Information about episodes estimated to be alcohol-related may be slightly different from previously published data. 2. Accident and Emergency Admission method Codes 21 and 28 were used: 21: Emergency via A&E, including the casualty department of the provider; 28: Emergency: Other means including patients who arrive via the A&E department of another healthcare provider. 3. SHA/PCT of residence The SHA or PCT containing the patient’s normal home address. This does not necessarily reflect where the patient was treated as they may have travelled to another SHA/PCT for treatment. 4. Assessing growth through time HES figures are available from 1989-90 onwards. Changes to the figures over time need to be interpreted in the context of improvements in data quality and coverage (particularly in earlier years), improvements in coverage of independent sector activity (particularly from 2006-07) and changes in national health service practice. For example, apparent reductions in activity may be due to a number of procedures which may now be undertaken in outpatient settings and so no longer include in admitted patient HES data. 5. Data quality HES are compiled from data sent by more than 300 NHS trusts and PCTs in England and from some independent sector organisations for activity commissioned by the English NHS. The NHS Information Centre for health and social care liaises closely with these organisations to encourage submission of complete and valid data and seeks to minimise inaccuracies. While this brings about improvement over time, some shortcomings remain. Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES) The NHS Information Centre for health and social care.

Epilepsy: Death General Practitioners

Owen Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Emma Reynolds: To ask the Secretary of State for pursuant to the answer of 7 September 2010, Official Health what proposals for GP consortia he has received Report, columns 458-9W on epilepsy, what information to date from organisations in (a) Wolverhampton, (b) his Department holds on World Health Organisation the West Midlands and (c) England; and what criteria age-standardised death rates for epilepsy per 100,000 he plans to use to assess such proposals. [44667] for each of the states in the EU-15. [44768] Mr Simon Burns: The Health and Social Care Bill Paul Burstow: The Department does not hold 2011 will provide for general practitioner (GP) consortia information on age-standardised death rates for epilepsy to be established from April 2012, prior to taking on for each of the states in the EU-15. full statutory responsibilities from April 2013. The 1151W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1152W

Department has established a rolling programme of GP Mr Simon Burns: Administrative and clerical staff consortia pathfinders to test the different elements involved costs for East of England Strategic Health Authority in GP-led commissioning and enable emerging GP consortia and Suffolk Primary Care Trust for the years 2007-08, to get more rapidly involved in current commissioning 2008-09 and 2009-10 are shown in the following table. decisions. Figures for 2010-11 are not yet available. Groups of GP practices keen to participate in the Administrative and clerical staff costs of East of England Strategic pathfinder programme put themselves forward to their Health Authority and Suffolk Primary Care Trust strategic health authority (SHA). There are no pathfinder £000 consortia in Wolverhampton and 16 in the West Midlands. Organisation 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 In England; there are 177 pathfinders in total. NHS East of England 1,554 1,698 2,605 SHAs have been responsible for managing the selection process for pathfinders. Although some SHAs have Suffolk Primary Care Trust 5,500 6,406 7,411 Source: applied certain additional criteria, the expectation has Financial returns of East of England Strategic Health Authority and been that all applications to join the programme will be Suffolk Primary Care Trust accepted unless they are unable to demonstrate: evidence of strong GP leadership and support; evidence of local Health Services: North West authority support; or an ability to deliver on local Quality, Innovation, Productivity and Prevention Yasmin Qureshi: To ask the Secretary of State for programmes. Health if he will estimate the cost to the public purse of the proposed restructuring of NHS commissioning in Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (a) Bolton and (b) Greater Manchester. [44832] what recent discussions he has had on the funding of GP consortia which cross existing primary care trust Mr Simon Burns: The estimated costs of the proposed boundaries. [44700] restructuring of national health service commissioning were published in the impact assessment alongside the Mr Simon Burns: From 2013-14, the NHS Health and Social Care Bill 2011. Commissioning Board will take over responsibility for The Department has not estimated a regional breakdown commissioning guidelines and the allocation of resources of these figures, as these will depend on local decisions. from the Department. It will be for the board to decide The impact assessment is available at: how best to allocate resources in a way that supports the principle of securing equivalent access to national health www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Publications/ PublicationsLegislation/DH_123583 service services relative to the prospective burden of disease and disability. A copy has already been placed in the Library. During the transition to the board, the Secretary of State has asked the Advisory Committee on Resource Health Services: North Yorkshire Allocation (ACRA), an independent committee comprising general practitioner (GPs), academics and NHS managers, Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Health to continue to oversee the formulae for the distribution (1) what the estimated cost to the public purse is of the of NHS resources. ACRA’s work programme will include review of health services in North Yorkshire; [44698] consideration of the allocation of funds to GP consortia. (2) what steps he is taking to ensure GP consortia are This work programme does not pre-empt any decisions involved in the review of health services in North to be made by the NHS Commissioning Board. Yorkshire. [44699] Further detail on the allocations and processes will be announced in due course. Mr Simon Burns: The review of health services in North Yorkshire has been commissioned by NHS Yorkshire Genito-Urinary Medicine and the Humber on behalf of the local health economy. As such, no estimate of the cost to the public purse of this review has been made by the Department. The David Cairns: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Department expects NHS Yorkshire and the Humber what plans he has to consult on the draft of his to ensure general practitioner consortia are fully engaged Department’s forthcoming sexual health strategy. in this review. [44584] Home Care Services Anne Milton: We intend to work closely with a wide range of stakeholders and experts in the field to develop Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for our new sexual health strategy. Health (1) what penalties are applied to local authorities for failing to follow the required procedures for tendering Health Services: East of England domiciliary care contracts; [44585] (2) what criteria apply to the award of domiciliary Mr Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health care contracts by local authorities under the EU what estimate has been made of the cost to the public Directive on public procurement; [44586] purse of running and administering the (a) East of (3) what procedure is in place for advertising of England Strategic Health Authority and (b) Suffolk domiciliary care contracts by local authorities under Primary Care Trust in (i) 2007-08, (ii) 2008-09, (iii) the EU public procurement directive; and where such 2009-10 and (iv) 2010-11. [44976] advertisements must be placed; [44587] 1153W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1154W

(4) what procedure is in place in respect of tendering name and contact details of that service to any relevant domiciliary care contracts under the EU public persons for which it is responsible. procurement Directive; [44588] Copies of both documents have already have been (5) what arrangements are in place for the tendering placed in the Library. of domiciliary care contracts in (a) County Durham, The directions are available on the Department’s (b) Northumbria, (c) Yorkshire and the Humber and website at: (d) the North East. [44589] www.dh.gov.uk/prod_consum_dh/groups/dh_digitalassets/ @dh/@en/@ps/documents/digitalasset/dh_113648.pdf Paul Burstow: It is for individual local authorities to follow European Union procurement guidance for the tendering of domiciliary care contracts. Domiciliary Human Papilloma Virus: Vaccination Care is classed as a Part B service of the Procurement Directive. The detailed award criteria set out in that guidance for tendering for these services do not apply to Mr Brine: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Part B services. However local authorities are expected what assessment he has made of the effects of a to follow procedures which provide an outcome to their vaccination for human papilloma virus 6 and 11 on the purchasing requirements that delivers value for money. incidence of false positive smear tests. [44782] Authorities are required to ensure that any specifications set out in the tender documents are not discriminatory Anne Milton: In 2010, the Department commissioned and do not point to particular products. Authorities the Health Protection Agency (HPA) to conduct a should not use standards which are inconsistent with cost-effectiveness study on Human papilloma virus (HPV) wider international standards. vaccination. This study is taking into account new data on the potential protection provided by the HPV vaccines Hospitals: Manpower against cancer and non-cancer diseases, including genital warts. This study includes data from two recently published papers that report on the numbers of borderline and Mark Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for mild smears that contained either HPV6 or HPV111, Health what recent representations he has received on and the economic benefit of reducing such smears by weekend staffing levels in hospitals; and what response eliminating HPV6 and HPV112. The cost-effectiveness he has made to such representations. [44759] study for the HPV vaccine, which has not yet been published by the HPA, will support the next procurement Paul Burstow: The Department does not record separately exercise for the HPV immunisation programme that is details of correspondence on weekend staffing levels. taking place in 2011. The information could be provided only at disproportionate cost. 1 Lowell-Jones R, Bailey A, Beddows S et al. (2010) Multi-site study of HPV type-specific prevalence in women with cervical Hospitals: Waiting Lists cancer, intraepithelial neoplasia and normal cytology, in England. Br J Cancer 103(2): 209-16: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez/20628396 Mr Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Health if 2 Chapman R, Soldan K and Jit M (2011) Modelling borderline he will make an assessment of the effectiveness of and mild dysplasia associated with HPV6 and 11 infection. Vaccine: primary care trusts in making patients aware of their entitlement to be treated within 18 weeks or to access www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez/21338682 private treatment; and if he will make a statement. [44776] Leeds General Infirmary: Children Mr Simon Burns: The Department does not hold information centrally on the effectiveness of primary Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Health care trusts (PCTs) in making patients aware of their what recent representations he has received on the provision entitlement to be treated within 18 weeks or for the of children’s services at the Leeds General Infirmary. national health service to take all reasonable steps to [44702] offer a range of alternative providers if this is not possible. Mr Simon Burns: Departmental records show that, The right to access services within maximum waiting since January 2011, it has received 10 representations times remains in the NHS constitution as set out in the about the provision of children’s services at the Leeds NHS Operating Framework 2011-12. Commissioners General Infirmary (LGI), comprising of one parliamentary should ensure that performance does not deteriorate question and nine pieces of correspondence. and where possible, improves during 2011-12. All of the representations received relate to the paediatric The ‘Primary Care Trusts and Strategic Health cardiac unit at the LGI. My hon. Friend may also wish Authorities (Waiting Times) Directions 2010’ and the to note that, on 15 February 2011, the right hon. accompanying guidance ‘Implementation of the right Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) tabled an to access services in the maximum waiting times: guidance early-day motion in support of the Children’s Heart to strategic health authorities, primary care trusts and Unit at the LGI, which has received support from providers’ sets out that each PCT must establish a numerous local hon. Members. On 3 March 2011, my service for the purpose of providing advice and assistance hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) to patients referred for consultant-led assessment or tabled an end of day Adjournment debate about children’s treatment; publish the name and contact details for that heart surgery services in Leeds, which was attended by service; and take reasonable steps to communicate the my hon. Friend. 1155W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1156W

NHS: Procurement The Department is aware that the use of block contracts can, in some circumstances, be a barrier to entry by new providers and restrict diversity. Although it has not Tom Brake: To ask the Secretary of State for Health made a formal assessment of their impact, it has for what assessment his Department has made of the some years been encouraging commissioners to move effects of using block contracts in the NHS on the Any away from simple block contracts. Willing Provider model of commissioning. [44794] Tom Brake: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Paul Burstow: Our aim is to create a ‘presumption’ how many and what proportion of block contracts that all patients will have choice and control over their were awarded by the NHS to independent providers of care and treatment, and choice of any willing provider (a) mental health services and (b) secure services for wherever appropriate. mentally ill offenders in each of the last five years. The Department has consulted on the development [44796] of patient choice in the national health service, including its approach to extending patient choice of ‘any willing Paul Burstow: The information is not centrally held. provider’. The consultation closed on 14 January 2011. We are currently considering the responses to this Tom Brake: To ask the Secretary of State for Health consultation and we plan to publish the results and what assessment his Department has made on the value associated guidance in the spring. An impact assessment for money of block contracts in NHS commissioning; will be published alongside the guidance. and if he will make a statement. [44801] Any Willing Provider (AWP) allows patients to choose, Mr Simon Burns: The Department does not hold this where appropriate, from a range of providers who are information. Primary care trusts have responsibility for qualified to provide safe, high quality care and treatment— ensuring the value for money of the services they and select the one that best meets their needs. commission, including services commissioned through It should be for patients, with the advice of their block contracts. doctor, to choose where they receive treatment. For example, some patients may prefer to be treated in the Tom Brake: To ask the Secretary of State for Health community; others may prefer a more traditional setting. what steps he has taken in response to the recommendations Choice of provider is an important part of choosing of the Co-operation and Competition Panel in its report a service tailored to an individual’s needs. Strict national of 16 December 2010 on the commissioning and standards on quality and patient safety must be adhered procurement of secure mental health services by the to. Choice of AWP allows innovative and responsive North West Specialised Commissioning Group. [44810] services to grow, benefiting patients and providers alike. Paul Burstow: We are considering the recommendations Under AWP, commissioners know that a range of of the panel and we will respond to them very shortly. safe, good quality and affordable providers are available to which they can refer their patients without the cost Prescriptions: Fees and Charges and effort of competitive tendering. The “Greater Choice and Control”consultation proposed Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for that patient choice of ‘any willing provider’ would be Health if he will bring forward proposals to abolish extended to most NHS services by 2013-14, starting prescription charges in England. [44820] with some community (and possibly some mental health) services during 2011. Mr Simon Burns: We have no current plans to abolish prescription charges. Tom Brake: To ask the Secretary of State for Health However, we are continuing to look at options for (1) how many NHS block contracts were awarded to reforming the current prescription charging arrangements. independent providers (a) nationally and (b) in each In particular, we are examining the implications of the region in each of the last five years; [44795] introduction of universal credit in relation to those (2) what the monetary value was of block contracts current benefits that entitle the recipient of that benefit awarded by the NHS (a) nationally and (b) in each to free prescriptions. We are also looking at the implications of state pension age changes. We will, however, explore region in each of the last five years; [44797] options for creating a fairer system of prescription (3) how many NHS commissioned block contracts charges and exemptions, taking into account the financial were awarded (a) nationally and (b) in each region in context. We will make announcements about how these each of the last five years; [44798] changes will be implemented in due course. (4) what proportion of NHS commissioned services were delivered through block contracts (a) nationally Primary Care Trusts: Debts and (b) in each region in each of the last five years; [44799] Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what his policy is on the future status of primary care (5) what assessment his Department has made of the trust debt accrued after 1 April 2011. [44701] effects of using block contracts in NHS commissioning on the diversity of providers of health services. [44800] Mr Simon Burns: Primary care trusts and clusters must ensure that through planning in 2011-12 and Mr Simon Burns: The information requested is not 2012-13, all existing legacy issues are dealt with. During held centrally. this period we expect developing general practitioner 1157W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1158W consortia to work closely with primary care trusts to NHS extended choice network data 2007-10: Procedures ensure that financial control and balance is maintained Total to prevent primary care trust deficits in those years. PCT referrer The detailed financial regime for the new health code PCT 2008 2009 2010 system is still being developed and part of that development will include the treatment of existing liabilities within 5P1 South East Essex 1,761 2,831 2,646 the Statement of Financial Position of Primary Care PCT Trusts for the future. 5F1 Plymouth Teaching 1,039 1,384 1,276 PCT Strokes: Health Services 5PC Leicester City PCT 1,341 1,559 1,636 5NX Hull PCT 1,136 1,962 2,553 Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Health 5P9 West Kent PCT 1,352 3,623 5,884 if he will undertake a consultation on stroke care prior 5PL Worcestershire PCT 873 1,793 4,244 to taking any decision on where the functions currently TAN North East 1,079 1,443 1,644 Lincolnshire PCT undertaken by stroke networks will be carried out after 5QA Eastern and Coastal 1,146 1,754 3,358 2011-12. [44642] Kent PCT 5PQ Norfolk PCT 720 664 1,548 Mr Simon Burns: There are currently no plans to 5L3 Medway PCT 768 1,010 2,014 undertake a consultation on stroke care. In the reformed TAL Torbay Care Trust 710 1,514 1,575 national health service as set out in the White Paper 5PA Leicestershire 874 2,005 2,265 ‘Equity and excellence: Liberating the NHS’ and the County and Rutland Health Bill currently subject to the scrutiny of Parliament, PCT the arrangements for providing commissioning support 5NA Redbridge PCT 899 1,523 1,595 within the NHS, including questions relating to the 5N6 Derbyshire County 732 1,054 2,342 functions of networks for stroke, as for other services, PCT will be matters for the NHS Commissioning Board and 5PG Birmingham East 477 661 1,106 not for the Secretary of State. and North PCT 5QP Cornwall and Isles of 756 2,102 3,375 Mark Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for Scilly PCT Health whether he has plans to make functional 5QQ Devon PCT 741 1,712 1,289 electrical stimulation for stroke victims available on the 5P7 East Sussex Downs 1,071 2,558 2,936 NHS. [44758] and Weald PCT 5LQ Brighton and Hove 715 461 397 Mr Simon Burns: Functional electrical stimulation City PCT can be provided on the national health service. It is for 5M3 Walsall Teaching 345 363 512 primary care trusts locally to decide which services will PCT be commissioned to meet the needs of local populations. 5N4 Sheffield PCT 763 2,200 2,605 5PY South West Essex 671 1,688 2,191 PCT Surgery: Private Sector 5A9 Barnet PCT 268 315 428 5C2 Barking and 311 384 444 Mark Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for Dagenham PCT Health how many operations funded by the NHS have 5P4 West Hertfordshire 697 1,814 391 been performed in private hospitals in each primary PCT care trust area in each of the last three years. [44781] 5P6 West Sussex PCT 546 1,584 2,408 5N7 Derby City PCT 268 240 419 Mr Simon Burns: Operations funded by the national 5PW North East Essex 493 2,392 2,740 health service and performed in private hospitals can PCT currently be contracted for through a number of routes. 5PP Cambridgeshire PCT 362 847 1,105 In the main, providers may be contracted via the Extended 5A4 Havering PCT 258 704 1,443 Choice Network. Data on the number of operations 5JE Barnsley PCT 126 198 1,592 funded by each primary care trust (PCT) is shown in the 5PM Warwickshire PCT 127 205 658 following table. 5PE Dudley PCT 273 810 1,576 Providers may otherwise be contracted via independent TAM Solihull Care Trust 220 510 949 sector treatment centre contracts agreed under the previous 5N9 Lincolnshire PCT 219 1,371 4,723 government, local agreements with PCTs or subcontracts 5PX Mid Essex PCT 599 2,733 3,843 between NHS trusts or foundation trusts and private 5P8 Hastings and Rother 352 1,034 1,028 providers. As these contracts are monitored and managed PCT by local commissioners, the information is not held 5MD Coventry Teaching 61 41 611 centrally. PCT 5MV Wolverhampton City 236 338 689 NHS extended choice network data 2007-10: Procedures PCT Total 5PK South Staffordshire 123 1,469 1,974 PCT PCT referrer code PCT 2008 2009 2010 5EF North Lincolnshire 111 135 169 PCT 5N1 Leeds PCT 3,152 5,149 7,529 5QC Hampshire PCT 159 513 2,142 1159W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1160W

NHS extended choice network data 2007-10: Procedures NHS extended choice network data 2007-10: Procedures Total Total PCT PCT referrer referrer code PCT 2008 2009 2010 code PCT 2008 2009 2010

5CC Blackburn with 117 535 225 5ND County Durham 5 135 448 Darwen PCT PCT 5N3 Wakefield District 225 545 1,225 5NN Western Cheshire 5 102 108 PCT PCT 5A3 South 55 2 36 5A7 Bromley PCT 9 73 700 Gloucestershire PCT 5D7 Newcastle PCT 4 168 707 5FE Portsmouth City 78 70 72 5J4 Knowsley PCT 5 283 408 Teaching PCT 5K5 Brent Teaching PCT 19 63 224 5QD Buckinghamshire 41 178 1,227 5K9 Croydon PCT 30 409 1,293 PCT 5KG South Tyneside PCT 5 22 139 5PR Great Yarmouth and 77 65 104 Waveney PCT 5M2 Shropshire County 24 70 255 PCT 5KL Sunderland Teaching 20 124 200 PCT 5NR Trafford PCT 17 60 299 5P3 East and North 515 3,452 1,369 5NW East Riding of 215 1,131 1,898 Hertfordshire PCT Yorkshire PCT 5C5 Newham PCT 94 268 348 5NY Bradford and 44 5,542 8,259 Airedale PCT 5N2 Kirklees PCT 232 998 1,416 5QH Gloucestershire PCT 108 772 1,991 5H8 Rotherham PCT 58 125 310 5C1 Enfield PCT 6 6 219 5NF North Lancashire 76 676 1,246 PCT 5C4 Tower Hamlets PCX 6 16 233 5QJ Bristol PCT 47 3 72 5M7 Sutton and Merton 17 164 256 PCT 5ET Bassetlaw PCT 63 147 684 5M8 North Somerset PCT 1 — 16 5J6 Calderdale PCT 238 942 1,134 5NQ Heywood, Middleton 4 79 1,061 5P5 Surrey PCT 415 3,560 6,318 and Rochdale PCT 5L1 Southampton City 101 202 269 5NT Manchester PCT 12 160 345 PCT 5PD Northamptonshire 724 2,853 4,660 5K6 Harrow PCT 91 510 722 PCT 5J2 Warrington PCT 17 142 88 5PN Peterborough PCT 4 1,133 1,709 5NC Waltham Forest PCT 136 485 563 5QL Somerset PCT 6 76 485 5NH East Lancashire PCT 84 930 1,750 5CQ Milton Keynes PCT 5 319 2,151 5PT Suffolk PCT 53 206 436 5D8 North Tyneside PCT 1 29 764 TAK Bexley Care Trust 17 16 237 5F5 Salford PCT 22 382 899 5GC Luton PCT 103 362 430 5F7 Stockport PCT 10 132 171 5NM Halton and St Helens 10 1,821 2,227 PCT 5FL Bath and North East 512468 Somerset PCT 5NV North Yorkshire and 29 439 2,141 York PCT 5HY Hounslow PCT 1 2 30 5PF Sandwell PCT 31 106 300 5K8 Islington PCT — 4 23 5PV West Essex PCT 378 1,631 1,804 5LC Westminster PCT 2 8 21 5NK Wirral PCT 9 665 1,053 5LG Wandsworth 2 5 21 5N5 Doncaster PCT 326 718 539 5LH Tameside and 244210 Glossop PCT 5P2 Bedfordshire PCT 58 257 959 5M6 Richmond and 21424 5M1 South Birmingham 17 111 505 Twickenham PCT PCT 5NG Central Lancashire 43 1,549 2,622 5A8 Greenwich Teaching 8 31 384 PCT PCT 5NJ Sefton PCT 2 278 386 5HP Blackpool PCT 19 144 344 5QE Oxfordshire PCT 2 41 337 5NL Liverpool PCT 6 67 193 5QF Berkshire West 39 396 2,070 5PH North Staffordshire 7 108 102 PCT 5QG Berkshire East PCT 1 20 506 5PJ Stoke on Trent PCT 14 102 66 5QR Redcar and 2 866 1,397 Cleveland PCT 5NE Cumbria PCT 24 175 266 5QT Isle of Wight NHS 129 5KF Gateshead PCT 5 44 95 PCT 5MX Heart of 813685A5 Kingston 12 250 325 Birmingham Teaching PCT 5AT Hillingdon PCT 6 17 155 5NP Central and Eastern 8 502 288 5C3 City and Hackney 5976 Cheshire PCT Teaching PCT 5CN Herefordshire PCT 20 115 667 5C9 Haringey Teaching 1 9 144 5N8 Nottinghamshire 4 1,639 3,352 5D9 Hartlepool — 75 170 County PCT 5E1 North Tees 1 495 1,453 1161W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1162W

NHS extended choice network data 2007-10: Procedures The Government are currently developing ‘leading Total indicators’ to improve our understanding of progress in PCT improving social mobility. More detail will be announced referrer in the Government’s social mobility strategy due to be code PCT 2008 2009 2010 published later this month. 5EM Nottingham City — 1,101 1,543 PCT 5H1 Hammersmith and 4812 Fulham PCT 5HG Ashton, Leigh and 7 722 1,405 TREASURY Wigan 5HQ Bolton 1 78 2,489 5HX Ealing PCT 4 25 50 Corporation Tax: Reforms 5J5 Oldham PCT — 154 1,482 5J9 Darlington PCT 1 32 542 Mr Ward: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer 5JX Bury PCT 10 88 406 what estimate his Department has made of the net 5K3 Swindon PCT — 23 936 effect on the public purse of changes to corporate 5K7 Camden 1 1 7 branch taxation proposed in the HM Revenue and 5KM Middlesbrough — 838 1,564 Customs paper on corporation tax reform of 29 November 5LA Kensington and —462010; and what assessment he has made of the likely Chelsea PCT effect on levels of corporation tax avoidance of 5LD Lambeth — 28 79 implementation of such reforms. [43256] 5LE Southwark PCT — 7 40 5LF Lewisham 1 9 143 Mr Gauke: The Taxation of Foreign Branches measure, 5MK Telford and Wrekin 23 163 185 as set out in draft legislation in December, was estimated TAP Blackburn with — — 1,428 to have a steady state cost of £100 million a year by the Darwen Teaching end of the scorecard period, 2015-16. Care Trust Plus More detailed figures will be made available at Budget 5QV Hertfordshire PCT — — 4,926 2011 when the policy is finalised. 5AN North East ——— Lincolnshire PCT This change will contribute to the Government’s aim to have the most competitive corporate tax system in RJN East Cheshire PCT — 2 — the G20 by helping to attract and retain businesses. 5QK Wiltshire 2 75 2,087 5QM Dorset — 118 571 The Government will ensure there are anti-avoidance 5QN Bournemouth and 1 210 473 provisions to protect the UK against abuse of these Poole Teaching rules, equivalent to those that apply to foreign subsidiaries. TAC Northumberland 1 17 652 The change is intended to remove taxation on genuine Care Trust economic activity abroad and will not be available for Grand total 34,357 103,859 182,857 those artificially diverting their UK profits through branch structures.

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER Arts: Economic Situation

Social Mobility Caroline Lucas: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what assessment he has made of the potential role of Chris Ruane: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister what the arts and creative industries in the Government’s assessment his Department has made of the effects of strategy for economic recovery (a) nationally and (b) income inequality on social mobility. [44524] in the Brighton and Hove area; and if he will make a statement. [44641] The Deputy Prime Minister: This Government are committed to a Britain where social mobility is unlocked; Danny Alexander: The Government’s economic policy where everyone, regardless of background, has the chance objective is to achieve strong, sustainable and balanced to rise as high as their talents and ambition allow them. growth that is more evenly shared across the country and between industries. The Government’s views on the relationship between inequality and social mobility will be set out in the The Government have launched the growth review, a social mobility strategy due to be published later this rolling programme to last the whole Parliament, with a month. first report by Budget 2011. This will be a fundamental assessment of what each part of Government are doing Chris Ruane: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister what to provide the conditions for private sector success and steps his Department takes to measure social mobility. address the barriers faced by industry. [44602] It will initially focus on two elements: (i) structural reform priorities that can benefit the whole economy The Deputy Prime Minister: This Government are and (ii) removing barriers in sectors where there are committed to a Britain where social mobility is unlocked; clear opportunities for growth and where Government where everyone, regardless of background, has the chance can make a difference. This includes an examination of to rise as high as their talents and ambition allow them. the digital and creative industries, among others. 1163W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1164W

Capital Gains Tax: Second Homes income for industrial and commercial and financial sector companies. This information is regularly updated Stephen Gilbert: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer and published in Table 11.2, on the HMRC National what estimate he has made of the revenue foregone as a Statistics website. The latest update is available at: result of the avoidance of capital gains tax on second http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/corporate_tax/table11_2.pdf homes in the latest period for which figures are available. [43466] Mr Bain: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will estimate the proportion of profits paid in Mr Gauke: No such estimate has been made. corporation tax after losses offset have been taken into account by (a) large companies and (b) small and Corporation Tax medium-sized enterprises trading in the UK in the last three financial years. [44847] Matthew Hancock: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many businesses in each (a) local authority, Mr Gauke: HMRC publish statistics on gross taxable (b) parliamentary constituency and (c) region will be profits, trading losses from previous years offset against affected by the reduction in the main rate of corporation the current year’s trading profits, and trading losses tax in 2011-12. [39184] offset against other income for industrial and commercial, and financial sector companies. This information is Mr Gauke: The information is not available. In total regularly updated and published in Table 11.2, on the approximately 920,000 companies will benefit from the HMRC National Statistics website. The latest update is reductions in the main and small profits rate of corporation available at: tax announced at the Budget. By 2014-15 the net impact http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/corporate_tax/table11_2.pdf of the CT measures announced in the Budget is a cost to the Exchequer of £1,300 million. Mr Bain: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will estimate the effect of the projected revenue Matthew Hancock: To ask the Chancellor of the accruing from corporation tax in the next financial year Exchequer what assessment he has made of the effect of losses not yet offset by businesses trading in the UK. on an average business in each (a) local authority, (b) [44848] parliamentary constituency and (c) region of reducing the main rate of corporation tax by one per cent. in 2011-12. [39185] Mr Gauke: The information requested falls within the responsibility of the Office for Budget Responsibility Mr Gauke: The information is not available. In total (OBR), and I have asked the OBR to reply. approximately 920,000 companies will benefit from the Letter from Robert Chote, dated March 2011: reductions in the main and small profits rate of corporation As Chair of the Budget Responsibility Committee of the tax (CT) announced at the Budget. By 2014-15 the net Office for Budget Responsibility I have been asked to reply to impact of the CT measures announced in the Budget is your recent question. a cost to the Exchequer of £1,300 million. The information that you have requested has not previously been published by the OBR. In line with our release policy, the Matthew Hancock: To ask the Chancellor of the OBR aims to meet ongoing requests for supplementary forecast Exchequer (1) how many businesses in each (a) local information where this will improve the quality of public debate authority, (b) parliamentary constituency and (c) region on the public finances. Our release policy is available on our will be affected by the change in the small profits rate of website at: corporation tax in 2011-12; [39186] http://budgetresponsibility.independent.gov.uk/d/ (2) if he will estimate the effect on an average release_policy.pdf business in each (a) local authority, (b) parliamentary Where the OBR publishes supplementary material, releases constituency and (c) region of the change in the small will be made in an orderly manner that promotes public confidence profits rate of corporation tax in 2011-12. [39188] and gives equal access to information. The next scheduled release date for the publication of supplementary forecast information is 22 March 2011. Given that this is a day before the Budget, our Mr Gauke: Around 850,000 companies in the UK intention is to include this information in the supplementary data pay the small profits rate of corporation tax. In total, published with the “Economic and fiscal outlook” on 23 March. approximately 920,000 companies will benefit from the reductions in the main and small profits rate of corporation tax (CT) announced at the Budget. By 2014-15 the net Debts: Developing Countries impact of the CT measures announced in the Budget is a cost to the Exchequer of £1,300. Sarah Newton: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Mr Bain: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what recent consideration he has given to extending the whether he has made an estimate of the degree of losses provisions of the Developing Countries (Debt Relief) (a) offset and (b) not offset by businesses trading in Act 2010. [44918] the UK in reducing their liabilities to corporation tax in each of the last four financial years. [44808] Justine Greening: The Debt Relief (Developing Countries) Bill received Royal Assent on 8 April 2010 and the Act Mr Gauke: HMRC publish statistics on trading losses came into force on 8 June 2010. The legislation means from previous years offset against the current year’s that UK courts of law can no longer be used to pursue trading profits, and trading losses offset against other excessive claims against some of the poorest countries 1165W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1166W on their historic debts, ensuring that resources are available Sammy Wilson: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer to tackle poverty. The sunset clause attached to this what the evidential basis was for his calculation of the legislation means that the law will expire on 7 June funding to be made available to Equitable Life policyholders. 2011. The Government are reviewing whether or not to [44762] extend the Act. Mr Hoban: Sir John Chadwick and his actuarial Departmental Food advisers spent over a year carrying out detailed analysis and gathering information in order to be able to provide the first bottom up estimates of relative losses suffered Mr Bain: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if by policyholders. he will estimate the proportion of the seafood procured As a result of detailed actuarial analysis, the Government for (a) his Department, (b) its agencies and (c) the announced that the relative losses suffered by policyholders non-departmental public bodies for which he is amount to £4.1 billion. As part of the spending review, responsible that (i) was on the Marine Conservation the Government also announced that, after considering Society’s list of fish to avoid and (ii) complied with the Government’s spending priorities and the potential sustainability standards indicated by inclusion in either impact on the public purse, they would make in the the Marine Conservation Society’s list of fish to eat or region of £1.5 billion available for the payment scheme. by the list of fish species certified by the Marine Stewardship Council in (A) 2010 and (B) 2011 to date. [45029] Excise Duties: Fuels

Justine Greening: Catering facilities are supplied in Miss McIntosh: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer the Chancellor’s building through a sub contractor to (1) what steps he plans to take to introduce (a) a fuel Treasury’s PFI provider. The caterer has a policy in duty stabiliser and (b) a rebate for remote rural areas in place not to purchase species on the current Marine (i) North Yorkshire and (ii) other parts of the UK; and Conservation Society’s list and works closely with its if he will make a statement; [44591] own suppliers to achieve this. (2) whether he has made an assessment of the In addition, they adhere to the guidance from both economic effects of differences in levels of fuel duty the Marine Conservation Society and the Marine between the UK and other EU states; and if he will Stewardship Council in relation to ‘fish to eat’ and ‘fish make a statement; [44592] to avoid’. (3) if he will reverse his decision to increase the rate In both 2010 and 2011 to date the catering provider of fuel duty on 1 April 2011. [44593] has been 100% compliant with these standards. Justine Greening: I refer the hon. Member to the answer given on 18 January 2011, Official Report, column Equitable Life Assurance Society: Compensation 753W,to the hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie), the answer given on 2 February 2011, Official Report, Sammy Wilson: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer column 837W, to the hon. Member for Hartlepool for what reasons he has not implemented the (Mr Wright), and the answer given on 1 November recommendations of the Parliamentary Ombudsman 2010, Official Report, column 665W,to the hon. Member on compensation levels for Equitable Life policyholders. for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith). [44761] The Government are planning to formally apply to the European Commission to implement a 5p per litre Mr Hoban: The Government have announced that rural fuel duty rebate pilot scheme covering all islands they accept all the Parliamentary Ombudsman’s findings in the Inner and Outer Hebrides, Northern Isles, the of maladministration in their entirety; they are now in islands in the Clyde and the Isles of Scilly. the process establishing a payment scheme that is swift, transparent and fair, in line with the Ombudsman’s Financial Services: Foreign Companies recommendations. In her report, the Parliamentary Ombudsman Barry Gardiner: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer recommended that the aim of the scheme should be (1) whether he proposes to apply restrictions to European- “to put those people who suffered a relative loss back into the based independent financial advisors operating in the position that they would have been in had maladministration not UK following implementation of the outcomes of the occurred”. retail distribution review; [45225] She also recognised that the public interest is a relevant (2) what estimate he has made of the financial effects consideration and that it is appropriate to on UK-based financial product providers of business conducted by commission-based European independent “consider the potential impact on the public purse” financial adviser services operating in the UK after of any payment. 1 January 2013. [45250] The Parliamentary Ombudsman wrote to the co-chairs and secretary of the All Party Parliamentary Group on Mr Hoban: The retail distribution review (RDR) is Justice for Equitable Life Policyholders in December the responsibility of the Financial Services Authority, last year stating, in reference to the Government’s decisions an independent body. on this payments scheme, that As is the case now, EU based financial advisory firms “I cannot say that those decisions are incompatible with the will be able to passport into the UK after the RDR has recommendations in my report”. come into force, through either setting up a branch here 1167W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1168W or by providing remote cross-border services. If a financial 1 The net asset value includes the crossings themselves (bridge and adviser from another member state sets up a branch in tunnels), land, approach roads, toll booths and related buildings. the UK, the RDR conduct of business rules will apply 2 Defence Storage and Distribution Agency, now brought back within to it, including the disclosure and adviser charging the Ministry of Defence Joint Supply Chain, does not have a separate rules. If it passports without setting up a branch, then balance sheet or trading accounts therefore it is not possible to its home member state conduct of business rules will calculate a return on net assets. 3 The Oil and Pipelines Agency is a management company. The apply instead—but a firm will not be permitted to Government Pipeline Supply Service sits within the Ministry of operate on a cross-border services basis in the UK if it Defence within Defence Equipment and Supply and does not prepare is doing so for the express purpose of evading RDR separate accounts. standards. 4 It is not possible to calculate a rate of return for Public Sector Spectrum Holdings as there is no income currently associated with these. 5 We do not calculate a Return on Net Assets on the student loan Government: Assets portfolio. 6 The current rate of return for 800MHz and 2.6GHz spectra is close to zero. Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Chancellor of the Note: Exchequer what estimate he has made of the rate of Figures for FY 2009 unless stated. return on the Government’s asset holdings in (a) British Waterways, (b) the Dartford Crossing, (c) the Defence Income Tax Storage and Distribution Agency, (d) High Speed 1, (e) the Land Registry, (f) the Met Office, (g) NATS, Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Chancellor of the (h) NHS Professionals, (i) the Oil and Pipelines Agency Exchequer if he will estimate the effect of lowering the Government Pipeline and Storage System, (j) Ordnance threshold at which the higher rate of income tax Survey, (k) Public Forest Estate England, (l) Public becomes payable on the weekly income of a person Sector Spectrum Holdings, (m) the Queen Elizabeth II earning (a) £42,5000, (b) £43,000 and (c) £43,500 in Conference Centre, (n) the Royal Mint, (o) the Student 2011-12. [41686] Loans Portfolio, (p) the Tote, (q) trust ports, (r) Urenco, (s) the Royal Mail, (t) the 800MHz and Mr Gauke: The June 2010 Budget announced a £1,000 2.6GHz spectra and (u) other public sector parts of the increase in the income tax personal allowance for those spectrum suitable for mobile communication purposes aged under 65 to £7,475, with real terms gains focused in the latest period for which figures are available; and on basic rate taxpayers through a reduction in the basic what estimate he has made of the revenue that would be rate limit. This affects the higher rate threshold, which raised from the sale of each such asset. [37347] is the sum of the personal allowance and basic rate limit. Danny Alexander: The following table sets out Return The resulting personal allowance, basic rate limit and on Net Assets (RONA) where known or appropriate. higher rate thresholds for 2011-12 are £820 above, £2,400 RONA has been calculated as operating profit over net below and £1,580 below the planned levels the Government operating assets at the end of the year in question. inherited. The national insurance upper earnings and In November 2010 Government announced they were profits limits, which are aligned with the higher rate selling the right to operate its first High Speed Railway threshold, were also reduced by £30 per week. (High Speed 1) for £2.1 billion. We are unable to state The following table compares weekly income tax and the revenue that would be raised from any sale of other national insurance contributions due in 2011-12 with assets listed as this information is commercially confidential. and without these June 2010 Budget changes to the personal allowance and higher rate threshold for individuals Asset RONA (percentage) with earnings of (a) £42,500, (b) £43,000 and (c) £43,500. British Waterways 1.0 £ Dartford Crossing1 5.1 Weekly Defence Storage and Distribution Agency2 n/a Change in Change in High Speed 1 9.2 Earnings income Change in income tax Land Registry (35.8) (annual) Earnings tax NIC and NIC Met Office 4.3 NATS 17.0 £42,500 817.31 -3.06 -0.03 -3.09 NHS Professionals (55.0) £43,000 826.92 -1.13 -0.99 -2.13 Oil and Pipelines Agency Government n/a £43,500 836.54 +0.79 -1.95 -1.17 Pipeline and Storage System3 Ordnance Survey 23.0 The table is based on an individual aged under 65 Public Forest Estate England (2.8) with employment income only and paying employee Public Sector Spectrum Holdings4 n/a national insurance contributions (not contracted out). Queen Elizabeth II Conference Centre 9.5 Royal Mint 15.4 Members: Correspondence Student Loans Portfolio5 n/a Tote 14.2 Tom Greatrex: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Port of Dover 11.4 (2008) when he plans to respond to the letter from the hon. URENCO 16.6 (2008) Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West of 8 November Royal Mail 8.1 2010 concerning Blantyre and South Lanarkshire Credit 800MHz and 2.6GHz spectra6 n/a Union. [43560] 1169W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1170W

Mr Hoban: My officials have asked the hon. Member’s proportion of public sector employees who are women office for copy as the Treasury has no record of having who will be made redundant from public services in received the correspondence referred to. 2011-12. [44915]

Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Chancellor of the Danny Alexander: The Office for Budget Responsibility Exchequer when he plans to reply to the letter from the (OBR) published, as part of the ‘Economic and Fiscal hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North of 21 Outlook’ on 29 November 2010, projections for general January 2010 on fuel prices. [44242] Government employment to 2015-16, which can be found at: Justine Greening: I wrote to all hon. Members on 10 http://budgetresponsibility.independent.gov.uk/d/ February to set out the Government’s overall position econ_fiscal_outlook_291110.pdf on fuel duty. This letter was in response to any outstanding The OBR has not produced a breakdown by gender, correspondence that hon. Members may have raised. or an estimate of redundancies as part of its forecast. Public Expenditure On 20 October 2010 the Treasury published an overview of the impact of the spending review on men and Mr Bain: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer women, people from ethnic minorities and people with what fiscal measures he plans to introduce to reduce disabilities. However it will be for individual employers levels of waste to landfill over the comprehensive to determine the exact workforce implications of their spending review period. [44004] settlements.

Justine Greening: In the June 2010 Budget, the Revenue and Customs: Leave Government announced that the standard rate of landfill tax would increase by £8 per tonne each year up to and John McDonnell: To ask the Chancellor of the including 2014, and that the rate would not fall below Exchequer what the three most common reasons were £80 per tonne from 2014 to 2020. All new fiscal measures for staff absence in each HM Revenue and Customs are announced at Budget. business stream in each of the last five years. [43744] Public Sector: Redundancy Mr Gauke: The following tables provides the three most common reasons for staff absence in each HM Nic Dakin: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Revenue and Customs business stream in each of the what estimate he has made of the (a) number and (b) last five years.

Year ended 31 December 2010

Reason 1 Reason 2 Reason 3

Benefits and Credits Mental and Behavioural—Stress Musculoskeletal and Connective Diseases of the Digestive System Related Tissue

Business Tax Musculoskeletal and Connective Mental and Behavioural—Stress Respiratory System excl Acute Tissue Related Resp Tract

Corporate Services Mental and Behavioural—Stress Musculoskeletal and Connective Diseases of the Digestive System Related Tissue

Enforcements Compliance Mental and Behavioural—Stress Musculoskeletal and Connective Diseases of the Digestive System Related Tissue

Personal Tax Mental and Behavioural—Stress Musculoskeletal and Connective Diseases of the Digestive System Related Tissue

Unknown—Grouping Not Mental and Behavioural—Stress Musculoskeletal and Connective Diseases of the Digestive System Found Related Tissue

Year ended 31 December 2009 Reason 1 Reason 2 Reason 3

Benefits and Credits Mental and Behavioural—Stress Musculoskeletal and Connective Mental and Behavioural excl Stress Related Tissue Related Business Tax Mental and Behavioural—Stress Musculoskeletal and Connective Respiratory System excl Acute Related Tissue Resp Tract Corporate Services Mental and Behavioural—Stress Musculoskeletal and Connective Diseases of the Digestive System Related Tissue Enforcement and Mental and Behavioural—Stress Musculoskeletal and Connective Diseases of the Digestive System Compliance Related Tissue Personal Tax Mental and Behavioural—Stress Musculoskeletal and Connective Diseases of the Digestive System Related Tissue Unknown—Grouping Mental and Behavioural—Stress Musculoskeletal and Connective Diseases of the Digestive System Not Found Related Tissue 1171W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1172W

Year ended 31 December 2008 Reason 1 Reason 2 Reason 3

Benefits and Credits Mental and Behavioural—Stress Musculoskeletal and Connective Diseases of the Digestive System Related Tissue Business Tax Musculoskeletal and Connective Mental and Behavioural—Stress Respiratory System excl Acute Tissue Related Resp Tract Corporate Services Mental and Behavioural—Stress Musculoskeletal and Connective Diseases of the Digestive System Related Tissue Enforcement and Mental and Behavioural—Stress Musculoskeletal and Connective Diseases of the Digestive System Compliance Related Tissue Persona) Tax Mental and Behavioural—Stress Musculoskeletal and Connective Diseases of the Digestive System Related Tissue Unknown—Grouping Mental and Behavioural—Stress Musculoskeletal and Connective Diseases of the Digestive System Not Found Related Tissue

Year ended 31 December 2007 Reason 1 Reason 2 Reason 3

Benefits and Credits Musculoskeletal and Connective Diseases of the Circulatory System Mental and Behavioural—Stress Tissue Related Business Tax Musculoskeletal and Connective Mental and Behavioural—Stress Respiratory System excl Acute Tissue Related Resp Tract Corporate Services Mental and Behavioural—Stress Musculoskeletal and Connective Respiratory System excl Acute Related Tissue Resp Tract Enforcement and Mental and Behavioural—Stress Musculoskeletal and Connective Respiratory System excl Acute Compliance Related Tissue Resp Tract Personal Tax Mental and Behavioural—Stress Musculoskeletal and Connective Diseases of the Digestive System Related Tissue Unknown—Grouping Mental and Behavioural—Stress Acute Upper Respiratory Tract Respiratory System excl Acute Not Found Related Infections Resp Tract

Year ended 31 December 2006 Reason 1 Reason 2 Reason 3

Benefits and Credits Neoplasms Acute Upper Respiratory Tract Infectious and Parasitic Diseases Infections Business Tax Mental and Behavioural—Stress Not assigned Infectious and Parasitic Diseases Related Corporate Services Not assigned Mental and Behavioural—Stress Musculoskeletal and Connective Related Tissue Enforcement and Not assigned Mental and Behavioural—Stress Musculoskeletal and Connective Compliance Related Tissue Personal Tax Not assigned Mental and Behavioural—Stress Mental and Behavioural excl Stress Related Related Unknown—Grouping Not assigned Acute Upper Respiratory Tract Mental and Behavioural—Stress Not Found Infections Related Notes: 1. Staff absence is given as sickness absence (paid time off for holidays and public duties etc. are referred to as annual and special leave respectively). 2. There have been structural changes within HMRC over the period covered by the table. Data which could not be attributed to a particular business stream has been recorded as ‘unknown’. The two former Departments did not move to a single IT system until November 2006 and that accounts for the relatively high number of unknowns in that year. 3. The numbers are actual days taken and not the full time equivalent. 4. The staff sickness absence reasons are ranked on the number of days taken by that absence.

Taxation: Foreign Companies on the basis of research undertaken by HMRC, we believe the numbers are as follows:

Mark Reckless: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Number how many businesses moved their headquarters for tax purposes away from the UK in each of the last four year 2007-08 1 2008-09 10 for which figures are available. [42770] 2009-10 7 2010-11 4 Mr Gauke: Businesses may move their headquarters for a combination of reasons, including tax, and can VAT: Registration restructure in different ways with different tax consequences, depending on the facts in each case. One form of Mr Brine: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer restructuring involves businesses formerly headed by a (1) what assessment he has made of the effects on small UK tax resident company creating a new parent company and medium-sized enterprises of the time taken by HM that is claimed to be tax resident elsewhere. Businesses Revenue and Customs to process value added tax are not required to inform HMRC of this change, but registration applications; [44785] 1173W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1174W

(2) what assistance HM Revenue and Customs provides industries within local enterprise partnerships (LEPs) to owners of small and medium-sized businesses who (a) nationally and (b) in the Brighton and Hove area; have experienced delays in the processing of applications what arrangements will be made for industries to be for VAT registration. [44812] represented within LEPs; and if he will make a statement. [44639] Mr Gauke: HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) aims to issue VAT registration numbers as quickly as Mr Prisk: Local enterprise partnerships are developed possible, while protecting the VAT system from fraud. It from the bottom up and as such it is for them to decide is necessary to balance the speed of registration against what their priorities for action should be. In forming the need to risk assess applications and carry out necessary their boards we would expect partnerships to ensure checks to safeguard against fraud. their business members reflected key sectors in their HMRC’s target is to decide 70% of applications areas. within 10 days. Average performance for the period from April 2010 to January 2011 was 65%. However, Businesses: Government Assistance monthly performance from August onwards has been ahead of target, with performance in December and Gordon Birtwistle: To ask the Secretary of State for January being 77.2% and 79.9% respectively. Business, Innovation and Skills what steps his Department HMRC recognises that where an application is selected is taking to support (a) existing small businesses and for in-depth checks, these are currently taking longer to (b) to local business start-ups. [43283] carry out than it would wish. The Department is looking at how it can improve performance in this area. Mr Prisk: Business support is currently delivered via If a business is experiencing problems because of a the regional development agencies through the Business delay in completing checks on its application, it should Link regional advisory service and: contact the Registration Team in Cardiff on 02920 www.businesslink.gov.uk 325001. Government recently announced reforms to the way information, guidance and advice to small and start-up businesses is provided, with more focus on improving BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS small business performance and growth, and a greater Arms Trade: Exports emphasis on further and better private sector provision. The ‘Bigger, Better Business’ document sets out the Sir John Stanley: To ask the Secretary of State for plans in detail, it can be found on the BIS website at: Business, Innovation and Skills for which countries www.bis.gov.uk arms export licences have been revoked as a result of his searching under publications. These include an online Department’s review of export licences announced on hub for people wanting to start up. 18 February 2011; how many (a) individual and (b) open licences were revoked in respect of each country; Gordon Birtwistle: To ask the Secretary of State for and what the date of revocation was in each case. Business, Innovation and Skills what support his [44727] Department offers to assist start-up companies in the manufacturing sector. [43412] Mr Prisk [holding answer 7 March 2011]: Asat3pm on 3 March 2011 the following export licences have Mr Prisk: A range of business support is currently been revoked under this review: delivered via the Regional Development Agencies through Tunisia the Business Link regional advisory service and: One Standard Individual Export Licence (SIEL) was revoked www.businesslink.gov.uk on 27 January and Tunisia was removed as a permitted destination from one Open Individual Export Licence (OIEL) on 28 January. targeted at start-ups and the Manufacturing Advisory Service (MAS) at: Egypt www.mas.bis.gov.uk 36 SIELs were revoked between 7 February and 11 February and Egypt was removed as a permitted destination from eight to help manufacturing businesses improve productivity OIELs between 10 February and 1 March. and effectiveness. Libya Government recently announced reforms to the way 62 SIELs were revoked between 18 February and 3 March and information, guidance and advice to small and start-up Libya was removed as a permitted destination from nine OIELs businesses is provided, with more focus on improving on 23 February. small business performance and growth. The ‘Bigger, Bahrain Better Business’ document sets out the plans in detail, it 23 SIELs were revoked on 18 February and Bahrain was can be found on the BIS website at: removed as a permitted destination from 16 OIELs between 18 www.bis.gov.uk/assets/biscore/enterprise/docs/b/11-515- February and 2 March. bigger-better-business-helping-small-firms The review is ongoing as we continue to monitor how the situation develops in this region. Departmental Leaseback Arrangements Arts Stewart Hosie: To ask the Secretary of State for Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what assets his Department Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he has has sold and leased back over the last 12 months; what made of the potential role for the arts and creative the sale price was of each asset so sold; and what 1175W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1176W estimate he has made of the cost to the public purse of Parliament for all its activities. From time to time leasing back each such asset over the period of the Parliament conducts enquiries that address ECGD’s lease. [45076] operations. On transparency, ECGD fulfils the Government’s Mr Davey: The Department has not sold and leased commitment to transparency. ECGD publishes details back any building assets in the last 12 months. of its operations, including export transactions it has supported, in its annual review and resource accounts Departmental Procurement and on its website. The entitlement to confidentiality, either for individuals or entities, is set by the law of Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, confidence, and the basis for balancing openness and Innovation and Skills whether all new contracts his confidentiality by government and public authorities Department has tendered over £10,000 have been published has been established by Parliament through the Freedom with associated tender documents on the Contracts of Information Act and the Environmental Information Finder website since its inception. [39215] Regulations. ECGD operates within these frameworks.

Mr Davey: The Department for Business, Innovation Green Investment Bank: Costs and Skills (BIS) has published five sets of tender documents from a total of seven tenders issued since September Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for 2010. The remaining two sets are being prepared for Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he has publication. made of the likely cost to the public purse of salaries for BIS has awarded three contracts subject to publication. (a) staff and (b) board members of the Green Investment The three contracts are being prepared for publication. Bank; and what estimate he has made of the administrative This Department receives its information and costs of the bank’s operation. [45161] communication technology (ICT) provision via a private finance initiative (PFI) contract which is not subject to Mr Prisk: The Government are committed to publishing publication requirements. details of the governance arrangements and the business and operating model of the new institution by the end Environment Protection of May 2011.

Gordon Henderson: To ask the Secretary of State for Green Investment Bank: Finance Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he has made of the potential contribution of remanufacturing Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for to achieving a low carbon economy. [44569] Business, Innovation and Skills what arrangements he plans to put in place to underwrite the Green Investment Mr Prisk: Remanufacturing has an important role to Bank. [45159] play in achieving a low carbon economy. Reuse of components and remanufacture of products offers a Mr Prisk: The Government are committed to establishing promising way to meet growing demand for energy the governance arrangements for the new institution by intensive goods whilst ensuring carbon emissions are the end of May 2011 when a detailed announcement reduced to acceptable levels. will be made. This Department, in partnership with the Department of Energy and Climate Change, is currently carrying Green Investment Bank: Manpower out a review of greenhouse gas abatement potential in energy intensive industries, in light of the move to a low Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for carbon economy. In particular, with the support of Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he has industry and academic experts, we are considering the made of the likely number of employees at the Green potential for greater material efficiency, including Investment Bank in its first year of operation. [45160] remanufacture and reuse, in key sectors such as steel, aluminium and plastics. Mr Prisk: Decisions about the staffing levels required for the bank will be taken in due course, when the Export Credits Guarantee Department precise nature of the GIB is clearer. However, we are not envisaging an institution employing a large number Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for of staff. Business, Innovation and Skills if he will take steps to make the operations of the Export Credits Guarantee Green Investment Bank: Public Appointments Department more transparent and accountable; and if he will make a statement. [44983] Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what arrangements he Mr Davey [holding answer 8 March 2011]: On plans to put in place to determine appointments to the accountability, the Export Credits Guarantee Department board of the Green Investment Bank. [45158] (ECGD) is a Department of State. Its powers are derived from statute: the Export Guarantees and Investment Mr Prisk: The governance arrangements for the Green Act 1991, as amended by the Industry and Exports Investment Bank (GIB) will depend on its final design, (Financial Support) Act 2009 (the Act). These powers which we are currently working on and testing for may be exercised only with the consent of HM Treasury. effectiveness, affordability and transparency. We plan to Through its Secretary of State, ECGD is accountable to make a detailed announcement by the end of May. 1177W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1178W

We expect to appoint staff to the GIB in accordance Mr Prisk: As set out in the White Paper on Local with the Commissioner for Public Appointments Code Growth the Government will normally expect to see of Practice on Ministerial Appointments to Public Bodies, business representatives form half the board, with a and this Department’s structural reform plan. prominent business leader in the chair. We would want to see these board members drawn from small enterprises Intellectual Property: Reform through to large businesses, and representing the key sectors in the area. Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Local Enterprise Partnerships: Buckinghamshire Business, Innovation and Skills what recent discussions he has had on changes to legislation governing Steve Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, intellectual property. [44895] Innovation and Skills if he will take steps to ensure that Buckinghamshire is included in a local enterprise Mr Davey: The Secretary of State has for Business, partnership; and if he will make a statement. [45320] Innovation and Skills regular discussions about the subject, both with his ministerial team in this Department, Mr Prisk: Buckinghamshire’s original proposal for a with colleagues in other Departments, and other local enterprise partnership did not meet all the Governments. The subject also comes up frequently in Government’s expectations as set out in the Local Growth contacts with business and other organisations with an White Paper. The partnership was therefore asked to interest in intellectual property. reconsider their proposal against these expectations and resubmit when they were met. The Government will be willing to discuss the partnership’s proposed approach Local Enterprise Partnerships as this is developed. Local Enterprise Partnerships: Pay Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what discussions he has had with representatives of the further and higher Mr Carswell: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, education sectors on the setting of local skills strategies Innovation and Skills what salary scales apply to staff and the involvement of local enterprise partnerships in in local enterprise partnerships; and how many staff this process. [45206] working for a local enterprise partnership are paid an annual salary in excess of £50,000. [45312]

Mr Hayes: Further and higher education institutions Mr Prisk: Local enterprise partnerships are voluntary are being encouraged to work together so that they can arrangements between their respective members and engage with their local enterprise partnership to ensure are not an arm of Government. Government do not alignment between the economic development priorities provide any funding to partnerships for their day-to-day and the skills provision available locally. This will include running costs and it is therefore for partnerships to colleges consulting local enterprise partnerships, as well fund their staffing costs and at a level they see fit. as other employer led bodies, local authorities and Jobcentre plus, on their business plans and how public Medicine: Education funding can be aligned so that it contributes to local economic and community demand. In line with our Jonathan Reynolds: To ask the Secretary of State for commitment to reduce bureaucracy, there is no Government Business, Innovation and Skills what recent representations requirement for local skills strategies rather Government he has received on the effects of planned changes to the are getting out of the way and enabling local partners to student finance regime on those undertaking medical develop the arrangements which meet their needs. degrees. [44549]

Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Mr Willetts: The Department of Health (DoH), and Innovation and Skills whether his Department has issued professional bodies, including the British Medical guidance to prospective local enterprise partnerships Association, have made representations to the Department regarding the inclusion of further and higher education about the impact of the proposed changes to the funding representatives on their executive boards. [45207] regime for higher education and student support for medical students. We will continue to work with DoH and others to ensure that the interests of those taking Mr Prisk: As set out in the White Paper on Local medical degrees are taken into account. Growth the Government will normally expect to see business representatives form half the board, with a Motor Vehicles: Industry prominent business leader in the chair. Partnerships will want to work closely with other key economic stakeholders Neil Carmichael: To ask the Secretary of State for including further and higher education representatives Business, Innovation and Skills what recent assessment but it is for partnerships to decide whether this involves he has made of the availability of (a) training and (b) providing them with a seat on their board. skills in the automotive electronics sector; and if he will make a statement. [45185] Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what account his Department’s Mr Hayes: SEMTA is the Sector Skills Council for approval process for local enterprise partnerships takes the automotive and engineering sector. SEMTA works of the capacity of applicants to reflect the diversity of with employers to identify skills needs and seeks to the geographic areas which they cover. [45209] improve the match between the supply and demand for 1179W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1180W technical skills. An assessment of the skills and training To date, no penalties have been charged to borrowers. requirements for the industry is available through SEMTA’s As of 30 April 2010, 1,100 EU borrowers were in strategic action plans. arrears (10% of EU borrowers). In 2009, the SLC successfully raised nine judgments against EU borrowers. Office of Fair Trading: Complaints The SLC enforced some in Scottish courts and some in other EU countries. This group of borrowers were those who had left their courses and who came into Lorely Burt: To ask the Secretary of State for repayment earlier than the first main cohort. We cannot Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer break the information down further as it could compromise of 3 February 2011, Official Report, column 960W, on the confidentiality of individuals. the Office of Fair Trading: complaints, how many of It is too early to say how successful these processes the 985 total complaints made to the Office of Fair will be since the full cycle has yet to be run. Nonetheless, Trading were consumer complaints. [45151] we continue to work with the SLC to develop the most robust and cost-effective methods for collection as possible. Mr Davey: Of the 985 total number of complaints This applies equally to UK students who notify the about debt management companies made to the Office SLC that they are moving abroad. of Fair Trading’s (OFT) Enquiries and Reporting Centre between 2005-11, 796 complaints were received from consumers. Overseas Students: Loans

Overseas Companies: Libya Esther McVey: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (1) how many non-EU overseas students have not made scheduled student Stephen Metcalfe: To ask the Secretary of State for loan repayments in each of the last five years; [41705] Business, Innovation and Skills if he will assess the effects of recent unrest in Libya on the finances and (2) how many students from European Union cash flow of UK small and medium-sized enterprises member states other than the UK have not made (SMEs) doing business in the region; and if he will scheduled repayments to the Student Loans Company assess the merits of offering short-term financial in each of the last five years. [41706] support to these SMEs. [44979] Mr Willetts: Students from non-EU countries are not generally eligible for support. However, European economic Mr Prisk [holding answer 8 March 2011]: It is still area (EEA) migrant workers and certain family members, too early to assess what impact the current situation in children of Swiss nationals and children of Turkish Libya will have on UK trade. UK exports to Libya in workers may be eligible. Such students are entitled to 2010 were £377 million but it is not possible to tell what apply for the full student support package provided that proportion involved small or medium sized enterprises. they satisfy specific residence conditions. Information Companies are strongly advised in all instances to which separately identifies these borrowers from English take out trade credit insurance and to protect themselves borrowers is not available centrally. against political risk. Those companies which did so European Union (EU) nationals are generally eligible and have lost financially as a result of the Libyan unrest for tuition fee support only, provided that they have are able to seek appropriate compensation. been ordinarily resident in the EEA or Switzerland for We will continue keep the situation under review and the three years prior to the first day of the first academic would urge businesses to put in place crisis management year of their course. EU nationals have been eligible to plans. Advice is available from the Government website: apply for tuition fee loans since they were introduced in www.businesslink.gov.uk the 2006/07 academic year. The number of EU borrowers who have taken out Overseas Students: EU Nationals tuition fee loans only and have not made scheduled repayments to the Student Loans Company is shown table 1(iii) of the ‘Income Contingent Repayments by Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Repayment cohort and tax year 2000/01 to 2008/09 Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer of 31 inclusive (provisional)’. These official statistics are accessible January 2011, Official Report, column 600W,on overseas at: students: EU nationals, how many (a) penalties were http://www.slc.co.uk/pdf/SLCOSP032010.pdf charged and (b) other actions were taken in the latest The relevant categories are shown in the following period for which figures are available; and if he will table: make a statement. [44859] EU borrowers studying in England who took up a tuition fee loan and are liable to repay as at 30 April 2010 Mr Willetts [holding answer 7 March 2011]: Students Number of EU borrowers (percentage of the from the European Union (EU) are entitled to receive repayment cohort total) the same student support as home students in respect of Known to be Known to be tuition fees. The first main cohort of EU students were overseas, above overseas, has the earnings not provided due to start repaying in April 2010. threshold for details of Where borrowers have returned overseas and have that country income and is and has fallen now considered not responded, a default schedule is drawn up and the Repayment status into arrears to be in arrears Total account put into arrears. A default letter is sent immediately asking for repayment of the default balance. This step Repayment cohort allows court action to follow if necessary. 2007 1— 1— 1— 1181W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1182W

EU borrowers studying in England who took up a tuition fee loan and are liable market if there are no significant competitors. So the to repay as at 30 April 2010 absence of a patent does not necessarily mean that no Number of EU borrowers (percentage of the repayment cohort total) products are being sold. Known to be Known to be overseas, above overseas, has Patents: EU Action the earnings not provided threshold for details of that country income and is Mr Kennedy: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, and has fallen now considered Innovation and Skills (1) if he will assess the effects on Repayment status into arrears to be in arrears Total the (a) economy, (b) businesses and (c) UK 2008 100 (3%) 400 (21%) 2,100 competitiveness of (i) participation and (ii) non-participation (100%) in the proposed new EU patent system; and if he will make a statement; [43481] All cohorts with at least 100 (3%) 400 (21%) 2,100 (2) what assessment he has made of the effects on (a) one tax year process (100%) economic growth, (b) UK competitiveness, (c) levels 2009 1— 500 (18%) 2,800 (100%) of foreign direct investment and (d) other aspects of 2010 1— 1— 6,100 the UK economy of (i) participation in the proposed (100%) new EU patent system and (ii) continuing participation in the Europe Patent Office system for granting EU-wide Cohorts with no tax year 1— 500 (6%) 8,900 patents; and if he will make a statement; [43482] processed as yet (100%) (3) what estimate he has made of the average cost per patent to UK businesses of using (a) the proposed new All ICR borrowers who 100 (1%) 1,000 (9%) 11,000 EU patent system and (b) the European Patent Office have become liable to repay (100%) system for granting EU-wide patents; and if he will 1 nil or negligible make a statement. [43483] Note: Figures are rounded to the nearest 100 Source: Mr Davey: The UK is strongly committed to an EU Student Loans Company patent, or a unitary patent, that delivers real benefits for businesses and the European economy. The proposed Patents unitary patent will offer an additional choice to businesses wishing to obtain patent protection covering the majority of the EU market. Estimates of the savings to business Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for and economic impact are difficult to make as they Business, Innovation and Skills what recent assessment depend on the arrangements that are finally agreed. But he has made of the relative position of the UK in a unitary patent should allow businesses to save the international comparator tables on the number of costs of filing translations in order to validate their patents granted per million of population. [44604] patent in the different countries concerned. Compared with a typical European patent under the current system, Mr Davey: The World Intellectual Property Organisation there could be savings of between £10,000 and £20,000 (WIPO) publishes worldwide patent application and per patent on translations alone. For UK businesses grant statistics every year, according to the information currently taking out around 2,000 European patents it receives from patent offices around the world. Although per year this could represent a saving of £20-40 million it has previously published comparator tables on the a year. Other savings should be possible from simplified number of patents granted per million of population, it administration and enforcement of patents in Europe; has not done so for recent years, and in this year’s the proposals are not sufficiently advanced to allow publication it notes that patent offices do not consistently quantitative assessment. report the origin of patents granted. Specific estimates for the effects of the proposed EU WIPO does publish figures for patent applications patent arrangements, or the existing European Patent filed per million of population and comparisons can be Office (EPO) system on economic growth or foreign made for recent years up to 2007, in which the UK’s direct investment are hard to make, because the impacts position has been consistently within the top 10. of the intellectual property system are closely bound up with other regulatory and market factors. However, Several points should be borne in mind in making there have been a number of studies which show the such comparisons. First, patents do not cover all areas role of aspects of the single European market in UK of industrial and commercial endeavour, and so patent economic growth. filings will reflect a country’s economic structure. Some innovations are more likely to be monetised through The Government recently published an assessment other types of intellectual property, such as designs, (BIS Economics paper 11) of likely additional national trade marks, copyright, know how, and plant breeders income in the UK if trade and competition in Europe rights. And there are some specific exceptions from were as integrated as it is in the US. If barriers in the patent protection under most national laws. Secondly, EU were reduced to the point at which trade was as easy individual patents are not equal in value, which can as between US states (which, unlike the EU, have one depend on market forces and how well the patent has patent system), by 2020 UK national income would be been drafted to stand up against challenge. Studies have 7% higher than if barriers remain unchanged. shown that patent value is skewed so that a small Emerging results from UK Trade and Investment’s percentage of patents overall turn out to have a very ongoing research programme show that intellectual property high value compared with the remainder. Thirdly, an (IP) is important for foreign direct investment. About applicant may choose not to patent in a particular one third of inward investors to the UK cite IP as an 1183W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1184W important factor in their decisions to invest. Differences closure of the regional development agencies). These in IP systems can impose costs. These are particularly arrangements were developed jointly by all the Government hard for young innovative firms which, under current Departments with continuing functions. arrangements, have to defend their intellectual property rights under national systems even if they have an EPO Regional Growth Fund: Yorkshire and the Humber patent. Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for Postal Boxes: Northamptonshire Business, Innovation and Skills how many bids to the Regional Growth Fund have been made from (a) the Sheffield City region and (b) Yorkshire and the Humber; Mr Hollobone: To ask the Secretary of State for and what the total monetary value of such bids is. Business, Innovation and Skills how many Royal Mail post boxes there are in (a) the borough of Kettering, [44531] (b) Northamptonshire, (c) England and (d) the UK. Mr Prisk: 464 bids have been received in Round 1 of [44741] Regional Growth Fund(RGF). Of these, 21 bids (with a total value of Regional Growth Fund (RGF) request Mr Davey [holding answer 7 March 2011]: There are for £223 million) have been received from the Sheffield some 115,000 post boxes in the UK. City region area and 56.5 bids (with a total value of The Department does not hold any further breakdowns RGF request for £405 million) from Yorkshire and the of post box numbers as this is an operational matter for Humber region. A summary of bids received in Round Royal Mail. I have therefore asked the chief executive of 1 of the RGF is available on the BIS website: Royal Mail, Moya Greene, to respond directly to the http://www.bis.gov.uk/RGF hon. Member and a copy of her reply will be placed in the Libraries of the House. Students: Fees and Charges

Mr Hollobone: To ask the Secretary of State for Stella Creasy: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Business, Innovation and Skills what information Royal Innovation and Skills what estimate he has made of the Mail holds on the (a) geographical location of and (b) number of students who will apply for deferred places Royal monogram borne by each post box in the Borough at universities for 2012; and when he expects tuition fees of Kettering. [44742] for such courses to be known. [45205]

Mr Davey [holding answer 7 March 2011]: Post boxes Mr Willetts: Statistics on deferred entry to higher are an operational matter for Royal Mail. I have therefore education are available via the University and Colleges asked the chief executive of Royal Mail, Moya Greene, Admissions Service (UCAS). Final end of year figures to respond directly to the hon. Member and a copy of for 2010 show that 487,329 applicants from all domiciles her reply will be placed in the Libraries of the House. accepted a place at a UK institution; 33,472 of these have deferred entry to 2011. Regional Development Agencies: Assets Limited information is held on the extent of deferred entry to 2012 in the current application cycle. Applicants Richard Graham: To ask the Secretary of State for can make up to five choices on their application form Business, Innovation and Skills when he expects to and this can include courses which start in 2011 or announce the outcome of the transfer of regional 2012. development agency assets. [45261] As of 21 February 2011, 604,705 people had applied for courses in the current application cycle, 18,711 of Mr Prisk: The Government anticipates the systematic these applied for at least one course beginning one year disposal of the Regional Development Agency (RDA) or more after September 2011. At the equivalent point assets and liabilities will begin by April. Each RDA has in the previous cycle, 587,857 people had applied, 28,075 submitted a detailed assets and liabilities plan and these of these applied for at least one course beginning one are currently being scrutinised by Government. Information year or more after September 2010. In the 2011 application will be made available in due course, once in principle cycle the main deadline for universities and colleges to decisions have been made on appropriate methods of guarantee consideration of applications for those domiciled disposal for particular types of assets. in the UK and EU was 15 January 2011. The new support arrangements we are introducing Regional Government from the 2012/13 academic year will apply to all students starting university in that year, including those who Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for have deferred entry. When the new arrangements were Business, Innovation and Skills what discussions he has announced, UCAS informed deferred entry applicants had with the Secretary of State for Communities and that had applied prior to 4 November 2010 about this Local Government prior to making the announcement by email. The email informed applicants of the implications on the creation of his Department’s new regional of the new finance arrangements and advised them to offices. [41314] check the BIS website for further information and contact individual institutions to discuss individual circumstances. Mr Prisk [holding answer 16 February 2011]: The English institutions wishing to charge more than proposals for ongoing functions have been developed as £6,000 per year will need first to have their plans for part of the Government’s arrangements for the closure sustaining or improving access and student retention of the Government offices for the regions (and the approved by the Office for Fair Access (OFFA). OFFA 1185W Written Answers9 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 1186W will publish approved plans (access agreements) by 11 July provide support for British manufacturers of vinyl 2011 and institutions will then be able to publish their acetate. [44567] tuition charges. The tuition fee arrangements for devolved Mr Prisk: The Government have no plans to provide Administrations have still to be determined. The Welsh support for British manufacturers of vinyl acetate. Assembly will vote on tuition fee changes before the elections on 5 May. Tuition fees for students applying to Mr Graham Stuart: To ask the Secretary of State for study at institutions in Scotland and Northern Ireland Business, Innovation and Skills if he will estimate the will be determined by the new Administrations after the number of skilled workers employed in the production elections on 5 May 2011. of vinyl acetate in the UK. [44662] UCAS will publish verified tuition fees information on a single date in July. Mr Prisk: This Department does not collect such information. Technology: Greater London Yorkshire Forward: Assets Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills whether he has had Rachel Reeves: To ask the Secretary of State for recent discussions with representatives of organisations Business, Innovation and Skills what options he is involved in the East London Tech City development. considering for disposal of the assets and liabilities of Yorkshire Forward. [44204] [44896]

Mr Prisk: The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation Mr Prisk: All regional development agencies (RDAs), and Skills attended a meeting which the Prime Minister including Yorkshire Forward, submitted detailed assets had with Eric Schmidt of Google on 24 January. In and liabilities plans to this Department on 31 January. addition, the Minister for Universities and Science, the These plans are currently being scrutinised and assets right hon. Member for Havant (Mr Willetts) and officials will be considered on a case by case basis. As we reach in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills these decisions, I anticipate that the results will be made (BIS) and UK Trade and Investment (UKTI) have public as soon as possible. engaged with a number of companies interested in The general principles upon which decisions on the investing in the development. UKTI and BIS officials disposal of RDA assets and liabilities will be made have also attend monthly project meetings at No 10. already been set out in the Local Growth White Paper and repeated in a statement sent to the libraries of the Vinyl Acetate House on 10 February 2010 and which can be found at: http://www.bis.gov.uk/policies/economic-development/ Mr Graham Stuart: To ask the Secretary of State for englands-regional-development-agencies/assets/statement-on- Business, Innovation and Skills whether he plans to rda-assets-and-liabilities

ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 9 March 2011

Col. No. Col. No. PRIME MINISTER ...... 899 SCOTLAND—continued Engagements...... 899 Private Sector Employment...... 898 Research and Development Tax Credits...... 891 SCOTLAND...... 889 Value Added Tax...... 897 Employment Levels...... 892 Welfare Reform Bill ...... 894 Fuel Duty Derogation...... 890 West Lothian Question ...... 898 Green Investment Bank ...... 896 Youth Unemployment...... 893 Higher Education Funding...... 889 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Wednesday 9 March 2011

Col. No. Col. No. DEFENCE...... 62WS HEALTH—continued Armed Forces Compensation Scheme...... 62WS Tobacco Control Plan (England) ...... 66WS

EDUCATION...... 62WS TRANSPORT ...... 69WS EU Education Council (14 February 2011)...... 62WS Supporting Community Transport...... 69WS Special Educational Needs and Disability...... 63WS HEALTH...... 66WS TREASURY ...... 61WS Parliamentary Written Question (Correction)...... 66WS Anti-avoidance...... 61WS PETITION

Wednesday 9 March 2011

Col. No. Col. No. PRESENTED PETITION Child Protection ...... 5P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Wednesday 9 March 2011

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 1067W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS—continued Crown Prosecution Service: Manpower ...... 1067W Overseas Students: EU Nationals ...... 1179W Departmental Procurement...... 1067W Overseas Students: Loans ...... 1180W Departmental Redundancy ...... 1068W Patents ...... 1181W Electronic Case Files...... 1069W Patents: EU Action ...... 1182W Postal Boxes: Northamptonshire...... 1183W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 1173W Regional Development Agencies: Assets...... 1183W Arms Trade: Exports...... 1173W Regional Government...... 1183W Arts...... 1173W Regional Growth Fund: Yorkshire and the Businesses: Government Assistance ...... 1174W Humber ...... 1184W Departmental Leaseback Arrangements ...... 1174W Students: Fees and Charges...... 1184W Departmental Procurement...... 1175W Technology: Greater London...... 1185W Environment Protection...... 1175W Vinyl Acetate...... 1185W Export Credits Guarantee Department...... 1175W Yorkshire Forward: Assets ...... 1186W Green Investment Bank: Costs...... 1176W Green Investment Bank: Finance...... 1176W CABINET OFFICE...... 1095W Green Investment Bank: Manpower ...... 1176W Business: Closures...... 1095W Green Investment Bank: Public Appointments ...... 1176W Intellectual Property: Reform...... 1177W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 1119W Local Enterprise Partnerships...... 1177W Community Relations: Bolton ...... 1119W Local Enterprise Partnerships: Buckinghamshire... 1178W Departmental Billing ...... 1119W Local Enterprise Partnerships: Pay ...... 1178W Departmental Conditions of Employment...... 1119W Medicine: Education...... 1178W Departmental Expenditure ...... 1119W Motor Vehicles: Industry ...... 1178W Departmental Finance ...... 1122W Office of Fair Trading: Complaints...... 1179W Departmental Leaseback Arrangements ...... 1120W Overseas Companies: Libya ...... 1179W Departmental Legal Costs ...... 1120W Col. No. Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT— EDUCATION—continued continued Members: Correspondence ...... 1110W Departmental Manpower...... 1120W Outdoor Education...... 1111W Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers...... 1121W Primary Education: Finance ...... 1111W Departmental Press...... 1121W Pupils: Disadvantaged...... 1112W Departmental Procurement...... 1122W Pupils: Per Capita Costs...... 1113W Departmental Video Recordings ...... 1122W School Capital Funding ...... 1113W Electoral Reform Services ...... 1123W School Leaving and Truancy...... 1113W Energy Performance Certificates...... 1123W Schools: Admissions ...... 1113W External Audit Services...... 1123W Schools: Capital Investment...... 1114W Food: Procurement ...... 1124W Schools: Crawley...... 1114W Freedom of Information ...... 1124W Schools: Vocational Guidance...... 1114W Government Procurement Card ...... 1124W Science: GCSE ...... 1115W Housing: Regeneration...... 1125W Specialist Schools: Finance ...... 1115W Local Government: Accountancy ...... 1126W Students: Finance ...... 1116W Local Government Finance ...... 1125W Supplementary Schools...... 1116W Local Government: Pay ...... 1126W Sure Start Programme: Finance ...... 1116W Non-domestic Rates...... 1127W Three Valleys Independent Academy ...... 1117W Opencast Mining...... 1127W Westminster Academy...... 1117W Planning...... 1128W Young People: Bed and Breakfast Regional Planning and Development...... 1128W Accommodation ...... 1118W Social Rented Housing: Energy...... 1128W Sustainable Development...... 1129W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE...... 1070W Third Sector...... 1129W Departmental Energy...... 1070W Thurrock Thames Gateway Development Departmental Food...... 1070W Corporation...... 1130W Departmental Marketing ...... 1071W Travellers: Caravan Sites ...... 1130W Departmental Travel ...... 1071W Travellers: Finance ...... 1131W Electricity Generation...... 1071W Vacant Land ...... 1131W Electricity Generation: Northern Ireland...... 1072W Voluntary Work and Charitable Donations...... 1131W Energy: Housing ...... 1072W Energy: Private Rented Housing ...... 1072W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 1084W Feed-in Tariffs...... 1073W Arts: Brighton and Hove...... 1085W Pay...... 1073W Arts Council England ...... 1084W Social Enterprises: Cooperatives ...... 1074W BBC ...... 1085W Solar Photovoltaic Sector: Brighton...... 1074W British Sky Broadcasting...... 1085W Solar Power: Feed-in Tariffs...... 1075W Departmental Pay ...... 1086W Third Sector...... 1075W Gambling...... 1086W Languages: Scotland ...... 1086W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Ofcom: Finance ...... 1087W AFFAIRS...... 1132W Olympic Games 2012: Housing...... 1087W Abandoned Vehicles...... 1132W Sports: Bexley ...... 1088W Agriculture: Subsidies ...... 1132W Aviation: Noise ...... 1132W DEFENCE...... 1096W Beef: Imports ...... 1133W Afghanistan: Elections...... 1096W Bovine Tuberculosis: Disease Control...... 1133W Air Force: Pay ...... 1096W Dairy Products...... 1133W Arab States: Arms Trade...... 1096W Departmental Carbon Emissions ...... 1135W Armed Forces: Pay...... 1097W Departmental Leaseback Arrangements ...... 1135W Armed Forces: Pensions...... 1097W Exmoor National Park...... 1135W Armed Forces: Redundancy...... 1098W Fisheries: Northern Ireland...... 1135W Departmental Procurement...... 1098W Forestry Commission: Manpower...... 1136W Nimrod Aircraft...... 1098W Forestry Commission: Redundancy ...... 1136W Forests ...... 1136W DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 1161W Forests: Land ...... 1137W Social Mobility ...... 1161W Labelling...... 1137W National Parks: Finance ...... 1137W EDUCATION...... 1103W Natural England: Research ...... 1138W Academies: Finance ...... 1103W New Forest: Hunting ...... 1138W Business: Education ...... 1104W Rural Payments Agency: Correspondence...... 1139W Departmental Procurement...... 1104W Sewers ...... 1139W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 1105W Shale Gas...... 1140W Departmental Senior Civil Servants...... 1106W Supermarkets: Refrigerators ...... 1140W Departmental Temporary Employment ...... 1105W Timber: EU Action ...... 1140W Departmental Travel ...... 1105W Timber: Imports...... 1141W Departmental Written Questions ...... 1105W Veterinary Services: Public Expenditure...... 1141W Disadvantaged: Children...... 1106W Waste Management...... 1141W Discretionary Learner Support Fund...... 1107W Water Charges...... 1142W Education Endowment Fund ...... 1107W Water Supply: Mutual Societies ...... 1142W Education Maintenance Allowance...... 1107W Free School Meals: Blackpool...... 1108W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE .... 1142W Free Schools: Expenditure ...... 1110W Afghanistan: Christianity...... 1142W Col. No. Col. No. FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE— NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 1063W continued Departmental Billing ...... 1063W Burma: Asylum...... 1142W Departmental Leaseback Arrangements ...... 1063W Croatia: EU Enlargement ...... 1143W Fuels: Northern Ireland ...... 1063W Departmental Billing ...... 1143W Departmental Food...... 1143W PRIME MINISTER ...... 1084W Departmental Security ...... 1144W Big Society Initiative ...... 1084W European Convention on Human Rights...... 1144W European Parliament ...... 1144W SCOTLAND...... 1061W Israel: Business Initiatives ...... 1145W Bank Lending ...... 1061W Italy: British Nationals Abroad...... 1145W Human Trafficking ...... 1061W Libya: British Nationals Abroad...... 1145W Libya: Official Visits ...... 1147W TRANSPORT ...... 1098W Libya: Politics and Government...... 1147W Blue Badge Scheme: Learning Disability...... 1098W Nigeria: Corruption ...... 1147W Cycling...... 1099W Sri Lanka: Politics and Government ...... 1148W Cycling England...... 1099W Tunisia: British Nationals Abroad ...... 1148W Cycling: Parking ...... 1099W Turkey: EU Enlargement ...... 1148W Departmental Manpower...... 1100W Departmental Regulation...... 1100W HEALTH...... 1150W Driving Tests: Fees and Charges ...... 1101W Alcoholic Drinks: Misuse...... 1150W Heathrow Airport ...... 1101W Epilepsy: Death...... 1149W Pedestrian Crossings ...... 1101W General Practitioners ...... 1150W Railway Stations: Heating...... 1102W Genito-Urinary Medicine ...... 1151W Railways: Oxfordshire ...... 1102W Health Services: East of England...... 1151W Third Sector...... 1103W Health Services: North West ...... 1152W Voluntary Work and Charitable Donations...... 1103W Health Services: North Yorkshire...... 1152W Written Questions: Government Responses ...... 1103W Home Care Services ...... 1152W Hospitals: Manpower...... 1153W Hospitals: Waiting Lists...... 1153W TREASURY ...... 1162W Human Papilloma Virus: Vaccination ...... 1154W Arts: Economic Situation...... 1162W Leeds General Infirmary: Children ...... 1154W Capital Gains Tax: Second Homes...... 1163W NHS: Procurement ...... 1155W Corporation Tax ...... 1163W Prescriptions: Fees and Charges...... 1156W Corporation Tax: Reforms...... 1162W Primary Care Trusts: Debts...... 1156W Debts: Developing Countries ...... 1164W Strokes: Health Services...... 1157W Departmental Food...... 1165W Surgery: Private Sector...... 1157W Equitable Life Assurance Society: Compensation .. 1165W Excise Duties: Fuels ...... 1166W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 1088W Financial Services: Foreign Companies...... 1166W Departmental Billing ...... 1088W Government: Assets ...... 1167W Departmental Redundancy ...... 1089W Income Tax ...... 1168W Dr Michael Savage...... 1089W Members: Correspondence ...... 1168W Foreign Workers...... 1089W Public Expenditure...... 1169W Human Trafficking ...... 1090W Public Sector: Redundancy ...... 1169W Immigrants: Detainees ...... 1090W Revenue and Customs: Leave...... 1170W Local Child Curfew Schemes: Suffolk ...... 1091W Taxation: Foreign Companies ...... 1171W Offensive Weapons: Sentencing...... 1091W VAT: Registration ...... 1172W Prevent Scheme...... 1091W Victims...... 1091W WALES...... 1061W Visas: Students...... 1092W Departmental Procurement...... 1061W Future Jobs Fund: Wales ...... 1062W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 1093W Housing Benefit: Wales...... 1062W Afghanistan: Education ...... 1093W Unemployment: Young People...... 1062W Departmental Billing ...... 1093W Departmental Leaseback Arrangements ...... 1094W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 1076W Developing Countries: Energy ...... 1094W Disability Living Allowance: Children ...... 1076W India: Overseas Aid...... 1094W Electoral Reform Services ...... 1076W International Assistance...... 1095W Employment Schemes ...... 1077W International Labour Organisation: Finance...... 1095W Incapacity Benefit: Medical Examinations...... 1078W Jobseeker’s Allowance...... 1078W JUSTICE...... 1064W Jobseeker’s Allowance: Mortgages...... 1079W Departmental Expenditure ...... 1064W Mortgages: Government Assistance...... 1080W Departmental Procurement...... 1065W Poverty: EU Action...... 1080W Legal Aid Scheme: Bolton ...... 1066W Social Security Benefits...... 1081W State Retirement Pensions...... 1081W LEADER OF THE HOUSE ...... 1063W Unemployed People: Travel...... 1081W Private Members’ Bills ...... 1063W Unemployment ...... 1083W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. 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CONTENTS

Wednesday 9 March 2011

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 889] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Scotland Prime Minister

Tied Public Houses (Code of Practice) [Col. 915] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Martin Horwood)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Welfare Reform Bill [Col. 919] Motion for Second Reading—(Mr Duncan Smith) Amendment—(Mr Byrne)—on a Division, negatived Motion, on a Division, agreed to Read a Second time Programme motion—(Norman Lamb)—agreed to

Petitions [Col. 1030]

Portsmouth-London Railway Line [Col. 1032] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Disability Living Allowance [Col. 215WH] East London Tech City [Col. 239WH] Water and Sewerage Charges (South West Water) [Col. 246WH] Animal Welfare [Col. 266WH] Health and Safety (Construction Industry) [Col. 274WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 61WS]

Petition [Col. 5P]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 1061W] [see index inside back page]