COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES

Senate Official Hansard No. 1, 2004 THURSDAY, 18 NOVEMBER 2004

FORTY-FIRST PARLIAMENT FIRST SESSION—FIRST PERIOD

BY AUTHORITY OF THE SENATE

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SITTING DAYS—2004 Month Date February 10, 11, 12 March 1, 2, 3, 4, 8, 9, 10, 11, 22, 23, 24, 25, 29, 30, 31 April 1 May 11, 12, 13 June 15, 16, 17, 18, 21, 22, 23, 24 August 3, 4, 5, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 30 November 16, 17, 18, 29, 30 December 1, 2, 6, 7, 8, 9

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FORTY-FIRST PARLIAMENT FIRST SESSION—FIRST PERIOD

Governor-General

His Excellency Major-General Michael Jeffery, Companion in the Order of Australia, Com- mander of the Royal Victorian Order, Military Cross

Senate Officeholders

President—Senator the Hon. Paul Henry Calvert Deputy President and Chairman of Committees—Senator John Joseph Hogg Temporary Chairmen of Committees—Senators the Hon. Nick Bolkus, George Henry Bran- dis, Hedley Grant Pearson Chapman, John Clifford Cherry, Patricia Margaret Crossin, Alan Baird Ferguson, Stephen Patrick Hutchins, Linda Jean Kirk, Susan Christine Knowles, Philip Ross Lightfoot, John Alexander Lindsay (Sandy) Macdonald, Gavin Mark Marshall and John Odin Wentworth Watson Leader of the Government in the Senate—Senator the Hon. Robert Murray Hill Deputy Leader of the Government in the Senate—Senator the Hon. Nicholas Hugh Minchin Leader of the Opposition in the Senate—Senator Christopher Vaughan Evans Deputy Leader of the Opposition in the Senate—Senator Stephen Michael Conroy Manager of Government Business in the Senate—Senator the Hon. Ian Gordon Campbell Manager of Opposition Business in the Senate—Senator Joseph William Ludwig

Senate Party Leaders

Leader of the Liberal Party of Australia—Senator the Hon. Robert Murray Hill Deputy Leader of the Liberal Party of Australia—Senator the Hon. Nicholas Hugh Minchin Leader of the National Party of Australia—Senator the Hon. Ronald Leslie Doyle Boswell Deputy Leader of the National Party of Australia—Senator John Alexander Lindsay (Sandy) Macdonald Leader of Labor Party—Senator Christopher Vaughan Evans Deputy Leader of the —Senator Stephen Michael Conroy Leader of the Australian Democrats—Senator Andrew John Julian Bartlett

Printed by authority of the Senate

i

Members of the Senate State or Terri- Senator tory Term expires Party Abetz, Hon. Eric Tas 30.6.2005 LP Allison, Lynette Fay Vic 30.6.2008 AD Barnett, Guy (5) Tas 30.6.2005 LP Bartlett, Andrew John Julian Qld 30.6.2008 AD Bishop, Thomas Mark WA 30.6.2008 ALP Bolkus, Hon. Nick SA 30.6.2005 ALP Boswell, Hon. Ronald Leslie Doyle Qld 30.6.2008 NATS Brandis, George Henry (2) Qld 30.6.2005 LP Brown, Robert James Tas 30.6.2008 AG Buckland, Geoffrey Frederick (4) SA 30.6.2005 ALP Calvert, Hon. Paul Henry Tas 30.6.2008 LP Campbell, George NSW 30.6.2008 ALP Campbell, Hon. Ian Gordon WA 30.6.2005 LP Carr, Kim John Vic 30.6.2005 ALP Chapman, Hedley Grant Pearson SA 30.6.2008 LP Cherry, John Clifford (3) Qld 30.6.2005 AD Colbeck, Richard Mansell Tas 30.6.2008 LP Collins, Jacinta Mary Ann Vic 30.6.2005 ALP Conroy, Stephen Michael Vic 30.6.2005 ALP Cook, Hon. Peter Francis Salmon WA 30.6.2005 ALP Coonan, Hon. Helen Lloyd NSW 30.6.2008 LP Crossin, Patricia Margaret (1) NT ALP Denman, Kay Janet Tas 30.6.2005 ALP Eggleston, Alan WA 30.6.2008 LP Ellison, Hon. Christopher Martin WA 30.6.2005 LP Evans, Christopher Vaughan WA 30.6.2005 ALP Faulkner, Hon. John Philip NSW 30.6.2005 ALP Ferguson, Alan Baird SA 30.6.2005 LP Ferris, Jeannie Margaret SA 30.6.2008 LP Fifield, Mitchell Peter(7) Vic 30.6.2008 LP Forshaw, Michael George NSW 30.6.2005 ALP Greig, Brian Andrew WA 30.6.2005 AD Harradine, Brian Tas 30.6.2005 Ind Harris, Leonard William QLD 30.6.2005 PHON Heffernan, Hon. William Daniel NSW 30.6.2005 LP Hill, Hon. Robert Murray SA 30.6.2008 LP Hogg, John Joseph QLD 30.6.2008 ALP Humphries, Gary John Joseph (1) ACT LP Hutchins, Stephen Patrick NSW 30.6.2005 ALP Johnston, David Albert Lloyd WA 30.6.2008 LP Kemp, Hon. Charles Roderick VIC 30.6.2008 LP Kirk, Linda Jean SA 30.6.2008 ALP Knowles, Susan Christine WA 30.6.2005 LP Lees, Meg Heather SA 30.6.2005 APA Lightfoot, Philip Ross WA 30.6.2008 LP Ludwig, Joseph William QLD 30.6.2005 ALP Lundy, Kate Alexandra (1) ACT ALP Macdonald, Hon. Ian Douglas QLD 30.6.2008 LP ii

State or Terri- Senator tory Term expires Party Macdonald, John Alexander Lindsay (Sandy) NSW 30.6.2008 NATS McGauran, Julian John James VIC 30.6.2005 NATS Mackay, Susan Mary TAS 30.6.2008 ALP McLucas, Jan Elizabeth QLD 30.6.2005 ALP Marshall, Gavin Mark VIC 30.6.2008 ALP Mason, Brett John QLD 30.6.2005 LP Minchin, Hon. Nicholas Hugh SA 30.6.2005 LP Moore, Claire Mary QLD 30.6.2008 ALP Murphy, Shayne Michael TAS 30.6.2005 Ind Murray, Andrew James Marshall WA 30.6.2008 AD Nettle, Kerry Michelle NSW 30.6.2008 AG O’Brien, Kerry Williams Kelso TAS 30.6.2005 ALP Patterson, Hon. Kay Christine Lesley VIC 30.6.2008 LP Payne, Marise Ann NSW 30.6.2008 LP Ray, Hon. Robert Francis VIC 30.6.2008 ALP Ridgeway, Aden Derek NSW 30.6.2005 AD Santoro, Santo (6) QLD 30.6.2008 LP Scullion, Nigel Gregory (1) NT CLP Sherry, Hon. Nicholas John TAS 30.6.2008 ALP Stephens, Ursula Mary NSW 30.6.2008 ALP Stott Despoja, Natasha Jessica SA 30.6.2008 AD Tchen, Tsebin VIC 30.6.2005 LP Tierney, John William NSW 30.6.2005 LP Troeth, Hon. Judith Mary VIC 30.6.2005 LP Vanstone, Hon. Amanda Eloise SA 30.6.2005 LP Watson, John Odin Wentworth TAS 30.6.2008 LP Webber, Ruth Stephanie WA 30.6.2008 ALP Wong, Penelope Ying Yen SA 30.6.2008 ALP (1) Term expires at close of day next preceding the polling day for the general election of members of the House of Representatives. (2) Chosen by the Parliament of Queensland to fill a casual vacancy vice Hon. Warwick Raymond Parer, resigned. (3) Chosen by the Parliament of Queensland to fill a casual vacancy vice John Woodley, resigned. (4) Chosen by the Parliament of South Australia to fill a casual vacancy vice John Andrew Quirke, resigned. (5) Appointed by the Governor of Tasmania to fill a casual vacancy vice Hon. Brian Francis Gibson AM, resigned. (6) Chosen by the Parliament of Queensland to fill a casual vacancy vice Hon. John Joseph Herron, resigned. (7) Chosen by the Parliament of Victoria to fill a casual vacancy vice Hon. Richard Kenneth Robert Alston, resigned. PARTY ABBREVIATIONS AD—Australian Democrats; AG—; ALP—Australian Labor Party; APA—Australian Progressive Alliance; CLP—Country Labor Party; Ind—Independent; LP—Liberal Party of Australia; NATS—The Nationals; PHON—Pauline Hanson’s One Nation Heads of Parliamentary Departments Clerk of the Senate—H. Evans Clerk of the House of Representatives—I.C. Harris Secretary, Department of Parliamentary Services—H.R. Penfold QC

iii

HOWARD MINISTRY

Prime Minister The Hon. John Winston Howard MP Minister for Transport and Regional Services and The Hon. John Duncan Anderson MP Deputy Prime Minister Treasurer The Hon. Peter Howard Costello MP Minister for Trade The Hon. Mark Anthony James Vaile MP Minister for Defence and Leader of the Govern- Senator the Hon. Robert Murray Hill ment in the Senate Minister for Foreign Affairs The Hon. Alexander John Gosse Downer MP Minister for Health and Ageing and Leader of the The Hon. Anthony John Abbott MP House Attorney-General The Hon. Philip Maxwell Ruddock MP Minister for Finance and Administration, Deputy Senator the Hon. Nicholas Hugh Minchin Leader of the Government in the Senate and Vice-President of the Executive Council Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry The Hon. Warren Errol Truss MP Minister for Immigration and Multicultural and Senator the Hon. Amanda Eloise Vanstone Indigenous Affairs and Minister Assisting the Prime Minister for Indigenous Affairs Minister for Education, Science and Training The Hon. Dr Brendan John Nelson MP Minister for Family and Community Services and Senator the Hon. Kay Christine Lesley Patterson Minister Assisting the Prime Minister for Women’s Issues Minister for Industry, Tourism and Resources The Hon. Ian Elgin Macfarlane MP Minister for Employment and Workplace Rela- The Hon. Kevin James Andrews MP tions and Minister Assisting the Prime Minister for the Public Service Minister for Communications, Information Tech- Senator the Hon. Helen Lloyd Coonan nology and the Arts Minister for the Environment and Heritage Senator the Hon. Ian Gordon Campbell

(The above ministers constitute the cabinet)

iv

HOWARD MINISTRY—continued

Minister for Justice and Customs and Manager of Senator the Hon. Christopher Martin Ellison Government Business in the Senate Minister for Fisheries, Forestry and Conservation Senator the Hon. Ian Douglas Macdonald Minister for the Arts and Sport Senator the Hon. Charles Roderick Kemp Minister for Human Services The Hon. Joseph Benedict Hockey MP Minister for Citizenship and Multicultural Affairs The Hon. Peter John McGauran MP Minister for Revenue and Assistant Treasurer The Hon. Malcolm Thomas Brough MP Special Minister of State Senator the Hon. Eric Abetz Minister for Vocational and Technical Education The Hon. Gary Douglas Hardgrave MP and Minister Assisting the Prime Minister Minister for Ageing The Hon. Julie Isabel Bishop MP Minister for Small Business and Tourism The Hon. Frances Esther Bailey MP Minister for Local Government, Territories and The Hon. James Eric Lloyd MP Roads Minister for Veterans’ Affairs The Hon. De-Anne Margaret Kelly MP Minister for Workforce Participation The Hon. Peter Craig Dutton MP to the Minister for Fi- The Hon. Dr Sharman Nancy Stone MP nance and Administration Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Indus- The Hon. Warren George Entsch MP try, Tourism and Resources Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Health The Hon. Christopher Maurice Pyne MP and Ageing Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for De- The Hon. Teresa Gambaro MP fence Parliamentary Secretary (Foreign Affairs and The Hon. Bruce Fredrick Billson MP Trade) Parliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister The Hon. Gary Roy Nairn MP Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasurer The Hon. Christopher John Pearce MP Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Trans- The Hon. John Kenneth Cobb MP port and Regional Services Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for the The Hon. Gregory Andrew Hunt MP Environment and Heritage Parliamentary Secretary (Children and Youth Af- The Hon. Sussan Penelope Ley MP fairs) Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Educa- The Hon. Patrick Francis Farmer MP tion, Science and Training Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Agri- Senator the Hon. Richard Mansell Colbeck culture, Fisheries and Forestry

v

SHADOW MINISTRY

Leader of the Opposition Mark William Latham MP Deputy Leader of the Opposition and Shadow Jennifer Louise Macklin MP Minister for Education, Training, Science and Research Leader of the Opposition in the Senate and Senator Christopher Vaughan Evans Shadow Minister for Social Security Deputy Leader of the Opposition in the Senate and Senator Stephen Michael Conroy Shadow Minister for Communications and In- formation Technology Shadow Minister for Health and Manager of Op- Julia Eileen Gillard MP position Business in the House Shadow Treasurer Wayne Maxwell Swan MP Shadow Minister for Industry, Infrastructure and Stephen Francis Smith MP Industrial Relations Shadow Minister for Foreign Affairs and Interna- Kevin Michael Rudd MP tional Security Shadow Minister for Defence and Homeland Se- Robert Bruce McClelland MP curity Shadow Minister for Trade The Hon. Simon Findlay Crean MP Shadow Minister for Primary Industries, Re- Martin John Ferguson MP sources and Tourism Shadow Minister for Environment and Heritage Anthony Norman Albanese MP and Deputy Manager of Opposition Business in the House Shadow Minister for Public Administration and Senator Kim John Carr Open Government, Shadow Minister for Indige- nous Affairs and Reconciliation and Shadow Minister for the Arts Shadow Minister for Regional Development and Kelvin John Thomson MP Roads and Shadow Minister for Housing and Urban Development Shadow Minister for Finance and Superannuation Senator the Hon. Nicholas John Sherry Shadow Minister for Work, Family and Commu- Tanya Joan Plibersek MP nity, Shadow Minister for Youth and Early Childhood Education and Shadow Minister As- sisting the Leader on the Status of Women Shadow Minister for Employment and Workplace Senator Penelope Ying Yen Wong Participation and Shadow Minister for Corporate Governance and Responsibility

(The above are shadow cabinet ministers)

vi

SHADOW MINISTRY—continued Shadow Minister for Immigration Laurence Donald Thomas Ferguson MP Shadow Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries Gavan Michael O’Connor MP Shadow Assistant Treasurer, Shadow Minister for Joel Andrew Fitzgibbon MP Revenue and Shadow Minister for Banking and Financial Services Shadow Attorney-General Nicola Louise Roxon MP Shadow Minister for Regional Services, Local Senator Kerry Williams Kelso O’Brien Government and Territories Shadow Minister for Manufacturing and Shadow Senator Kate Alexandra Lundy Minister for Consumer Affairs Shadow Minister for Defence Planning and Per- The Hon. Archibald Ronald Bevis MP sonnel and Shadow Minister Assisting the Shadow Minister for Industrial Relations Shadow Minister for Sport and Recreation Alan Peter Griffin MP Shadow Minister for Veterans’ Affairs Senator Thomas Mark Bishop Shadow Minister for Small Business Tony Burke MP Shadow Minister for Ageing and Disabilities Senator Jan Elizabeth McLucas Shadow Minister for Justice and Customs, Senator Joseph William Ludwig Shadow Minister for Citizenship and Multicul- tural Affairs and Manager of Opposition Busi- ness in the Senate Shadow Minister for Pacific Islands Robert Charles Grant Sercombe MP Shadow Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of John Paul Murphy MP the Opposition Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Defence The Hon. Graham John Edwards MP Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Education Kirsten Fiona Livermore MP Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Environment Jennie George MP and Heritage Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Infrastructure Bernard Fernando Ripoll MP Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Health Ann Kathleen Corcoran MP Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Regional Catherine Fiona King MP Development (House) Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Regional Senator Ursula Mary Stephens Development (Senate) Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Northern The Hon. Warren Edward Snowdon MP Australia and Indigenous Affairs

vii CONTENTS

THURSDAY, 18 NOVEMBER

Chamber Notices— Presentation ...... 1 Business— Rearrangement...... 2 Notices— Postponement ...... 2 Yasser Arafat...... 2 Committees— Scrafton Evidence Committee—Re-establishment ...... 3 Finance and Public Administration References Committee—Reference ...... 3 United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child ...... 4 Sport: Rugby League ...... 4 Human Rights: Darfur ...... 5 Budget— Consideration by Legislation Committees—Additional Information ...... 5 Petitions— Same-Sex Couples...... 6 Customs Amendment (Thailand-Australia Free Trade Agreement Implementation) Bill 2004 and Customs Tariff Amendment (Thailand-Australia Free Trade Agreement Implementation) Bill 2004— Second Reading...... 6 Third Reading...... 31 Governor-General’s speech— Address-in-Reply...... 31 Committees— Legislation Committee—Reference ...... 61 Questions Without Notice— Federal Election: Member for New England...... 62 Distinguished Visitors...... 62 Questions Without Notice— Economy: Policy ...... 62 National Equine and Livestock Centre...... 63 Workplace Relations: Policy ...... 64 Telstra: Privatisation...... 65 Child Abuse: Compensation...... 66 Telstra: Service Charges ...... 67 Trade: Free Trade Agreement ...... 69 Crime: Australian National Child Offender Register ...... 70 Telecommunications: Services ...... 71 Fisheries: Great Barrier Reef Marine Park...... 72 Iraq ...... 74 Communications: Television Sports Broadcasts...... 75 Federal Election: Member for New England...... 76 Questions Without Notice: Take Note of Answers— Answers to Questions...... 76 Personal Explanations...... 83

CONTENTS—continued

Ministerial Statements— Sport: Drug Testing ...... 83 Committees— Register of Committee Reports ...... 89 Budget— Consideration by Legislation Committees—Additional Information ...... 90 Committees— Membership...... 90 Joint Committees—Establishment ...... 93 Telstra: Services...... 104 Documents— Consideration...... 129 Committees— Legal and Constitutional References Committee—Report ...... 140 Lindeberg Grievance Committee—Report...... 142 Documents— Consideration...... 146 Committees— Membership...... 149 Adjournment— Superannuation and Pensions ...... 149 Asbestos Awareness Week...... 151 Mr Tchen Hou-jou ...... 153 Documents— Tabling...... 156 Questions on Notice Defence: Information Technology Equipment—(Question No. 3126)...... 157 Defence: Project Sea 1405—(Question No. 3145)...... 158 Immigration: Children—(Question No. 3174) ...... 160

Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 1

Thursday, 18 November 2004 Senator Stott Despoja to move on the ————— next day of sitting: The PRESIDENT (Senator the Hon. That the following matters be referred to the Paul Calvert) took the chair at 9.30 a.m. and Legal and Constitutional References Committee read prayers. for inquiry and report by 30 June 2005: NOTICES (a) the overall effectiveness and appropri- ateness of the Privacy Act 1988 as a Presentation means of protecting the privacy of Austra- Senator Allison to move on the next day lians and any legislative changes that may of sitting: help to provide more comprehensive pro- tection or improve the current regime in That the Senate— any way; (a) acknowledges that drug use within Austra- (b) the resourcing of the Office of the Federal lian prisons poses a considerable health Privacy Commissioner and whether cur- risk to prisoners and the broader commu- rent levels of funding enable the Federal nity; Privacy Commissioner to properly fulfil (b) notes that: her mandate; (i) the Australian National Council on (c) the potential implantation of human be- Drugs report, Supply, demand and ings with microchips (for example, as re- harm reduction strategies in Australian cently authorised in the United States of prisons: Implementation, cost and America (US) by the US Food and Drug evaluation, found that many injecting Administration) and the implications of drug users spend considerable periods such technology for individual privacy; behind bars and that a history of drug (d) proposals for a national ‘Smart Card’ use is far more common amongst pris- identification regime, whether private sec- oners than in the general population, tor or government proposals, any consul- (ii) the report also identified a high preva- tation that the Government may have un- lence of injecting drug use during in- dertaken in relation to such proposals, and carceration and that high proportions of the implications of such a regime for indi- prison inmates report injecting drug use vidual privacy; in the community once released, and (e) the extensive use of voter databases by (iii) levels of hepatitis C in prisons are es- political parties, including whether politi- timated to be up to 17 times greater cal acts and practices should continue to than those in the general community; be exempted from the Privacy Act and/or and whether voters should be afforded basic (c) calls on the Government to work collabo- access to, and the right to correct informa- ratively with the states and territories to: tion held about them by political parties; (i) ensure that all suitable prisoners are (f) the extent of surveillance within the Aus- provided with free hepatitis B vaccina- tralian community by both government tions, agencies and the private sector, the pur- poses for which surveillance is undertaken (ii) ensure that testing for HIV and other and whether those purposes justify the blood-borne viral infections is available significant invasion of privacy that results and voluntary in all jurisdictions, and from surveillance; (iii) provide funding for the introduction (g) access by government agencies to stored and rigorous evaluation of a trial needle communications such as e-mail, SMS and and syringe exchange program in an voicemail; Australian prison.

CHAMBER 2 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004

(h) telecommunications interception, includ- (2) consideration of government documents. ing the increasing rate of interception by Question agreed to. law enforcement agencies and whether or not the Australian Security Intelligence NOTICES Organisation should be required to pro- Postponement vide basic information regarding its inter- Items of business were postponed as fol- ception activities to the Parliament; lows: (i) Australia’s participation in the global ECHELON interception program, as Business of the Senate notice of motion no. 1 documented in the report of the European standing in the name of Senator Ridgeway for Parliament, dated 11 July 2001; and today, proposing the disallowance of the Abo- riginal and Torres Strait Islander Heritage Pro- (j) the lack of legislative protection for sensi- tection Amendment Regulations 2004 (No. 1), tive genetic information, including the postponed till 8 February 2005. Government’s failure to implement the recommendations of the Australian Law Business of the Senate notice of motion no. 2 Reform Commission and the Australian standing in the name of the Leader of the Aus- Health Ethics Committee in their 2003 re- tralian Democrats (Senator Bartlett) for today, port, Essentially yours: The protection of proposing the disallowance of the Customs human genetic information in Australia. (Prohibited Imports) Amendment Regulation 2004 (No. 3), postponed till 29 November Senator Brown to move on Wednesday, 2004. 1 December 2004: General business notice of motion no. 2 stand- That the Senate calls on the Government to ing in the name of Senator Allison for today, evaluate Tasmania’s Tarkine wilderness, includ- relating to human rights in Western Sahara, ing its temperate rainforest, coastline and Abo- postponed till 29 November 2004. riginal heritage, for World Heritage listing. General business notice of motion no. 3 stand- Senator Brown to move on Tuesday, ing in the name of Senator Allison for today, 30 November 2004: relating to high-intensity active naval sonar, That the Senate calls on the Government to postponed till 29 November 2004. give immediate protection to the 240 000 hectares General business notice of motion no. 9 stand- of forests in Tasmania which have been identified ing in the name of Senator Nettle for today, by environment groups and experts as having relating to Iraq, postponed till 29 November high conservation value. 2004. BUSINESS YASSER ARAFAT Rearrangement Senator NETTLE () Senator ELLISON (Western Australia— (9.33 a.m.)—I seek leave to amend general Manager of Government Business in the business notice of motion No. 6, standing in Senate) (9.32 a.m.)—I have a hard act to my name for today, relating to the death of follow, as Senator Ian Campbell did a very Yasser Arafat, before asking that it be taken good job in this role. I move: as a formal motion. That the order of general business for consid- The PRESIDENT—Is leave granted to eration today be as follows: amend the motion? (1) general business notice of motion no. 13 stand- Senator Harradine—I have had neither ing in the name of Senator Conroy relating to sight nor sound of that amendment. I am not the standard of telecommunication services in able to agree to its being considered. rural and regional Australia; and

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 3

The PRESIDENT—I understand that it Finance and Public Administration was circulated, but perhaps we could come References Committee back to that after you have had a chance to Reference consider it. Senator FORSHAW (New South Wales) Senator Harradine—I am sorry; I had (9.35 a.m.)—I move: not noticed but it has been circulated. (1) That the following matter be referred to Senator NETTLE—by leave—I move the Finance and Public Administration the motion as amended: References Committee for inquiry and re- port by 22 June 2005: That the Senate— (a) the level of expenditure on, and the (a) notes the passing of the President of the nature and extent of, Commonwealth Palestinian Authority Yasser Arafat; government advertising since 1996; (b) extends its condolences to the Palestinian (b) the processes involved in decision- people who mourn the loss of Mr Arafat; making on Commonwealth government and advertising, including the role of the (c) calls on all parties to the Middle East Government Communications Unit and peace process to renew their efforts as a the Ministerial Committee on Govern- matter of urgency for the negotiation of a ment Communications; just, enduring and comprehensive peace (c) the adequacy of the accountability settlement based on the principle of two framework and, in particular, the 1995 states—an Israeli state within secure and guidelines for government advertising, recognised borders and the right of self- with reference to relevant reports, determination for the Palestinian people, guidelines and principles issued by the including their right to their own inde- Auditor-General and the Joint Commit- pendent state. tee of Public Accounts and Audit; Question agreed to. (d) the means of ensuring the ongoing ap- COMMITTEES plication of guidelines based on those Scrafton Evidence Committee recommended by the Auditor-General and the Joint Committee of Public Ac- Re-establishment counts and Audit to all government ad- Senator LUDWIG (Queensland) (9.35 vertising; and a.m.)—I move: (e) the order of the Senate of 29 October That— 2003 relating to advertising projects, (a) the Select Committee on the Scrafton and whether the order is an effective Evidence, appointed by resolution of the mechanism for parliamentary account- Senate on 30 August 2004, be ability in relation to government adver- reappointed with the same powers and tising. provisions for membership, except as (2) That the committee have power to con- otherwise provided by this resolution; sider and use the records of the Finance (b) the committee have power to consider and Public Administration References and use for its purposes the minutes of Committee appointed in the previous Par- evidence and records of the select committee appointed on 30 August 2004; liament. and Question agreed to. (c) the committee report by 2 December 2004. Question agreed to.

CHAMBER 4 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004

UNITED NATIONS CONVENTION ON use of the term ‘Anzac’ during the proceed- THE RIGHTS OF THE CHILD ings of the rugby league games being played Senator BARTLETT (Queensland— in Europe. The minister accordingly pro- Leader of the Australian Democrats) (9.36 vided me with a brief history, which I will a.m.)—I move: try to encapsulate as briefly as possible. It states: That the Senate— • (a) notes that: The Chief Executive of the ARL ... wrote to my predecessor on 25 June 2004 seeking ap- (i) 20 November 2004 marks the 15th proval to use the word ‘Anzac’ ... anniversary of the United Nations • Convention on the Rights of the Child A brief to then Minister was being finalised (UNCROC), when the Federal election was called. In line with caretaker provisions, it was considered (ii) UNCROC is the most widely ratified that a decision on the use of the word ‘An- human rights convention of all time, zac’ could not be made by the then Minister. ratified by 192 countries, • In light of this, the Department telephoned (iii) millions of children worldwide suffer the ARL in late September to advise that no from preventable diseases and malnu- formal decision would be taken ... trition, • Following that call, the Department wrote to (iv) numerous children have no hope of the ARL on 8 October confirming the tele- even receiving a basic education, phone advice, pointing out that this would (v) numerous children work in inhumane necessitate finding an alternative name conditions and are exploited as cheap … … … labour, • The Nine Network and other media outlets (vi) children are the sad victims of traffick- have not breached the Regulations by simply ing, including for heinous purposes of reporting the match. prostitution and sexual exploitation, and That is a very brief encapsulation of the min- (vii) children are affected by armed conflict ister’s letter. I seek leave to amend the mo- and the ravages of war; and tion standing in my name. (b) expresses the view that an important way Leave granted. for Australia to demonstrate its commit- Senator HARRIS—I move the motion as ment to UNCROC is to ensure that Aus- amended: tralia’s domestic laws comply with the That the Senate— spirit and terms of the treaty. (a) notes that: Question agreed to. (i) the Tri-nations Rugby League series is SPORT: RUGBY LEAGUE currently being played in the United Senator HARRIS (Queensland) (9.36 Kingdom, a.m.)—Before I seek leave to amend general (ii) one of the composite teams is made up business notice of motion No. 7 standing in of players from Australia and New Zea- my name for today, I seek leave to make a land, and short statement. I will then seek to have that (iii) this team is being reported by Channel motion, as amended, taken as formal. 9 and possibly others as ‘The Leave granted. ANZACS’; Senator HARRIS—Several objections (b) further notes that the use of the word ‘ANZACS’ is contrary to Commonwealth were received by my office in relation to the

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 5

legislation unless there is approval given (v) the suffering of those affected by the by the Minister for Veterans’ Affairs; conflict is being prolonged, and the (c) requests the Minister for Veterans’ Affairs death toll is rising, as a result of inter- to advise the Senate whether an applica- national inaction, tion for the use of the word ‘ANZACS’ (vi) the Secretary-General of the United has been received from Channel 9 and, if Nations has called on all Member so, whether the Minister granted such ap- States to provide urgent and generous proval, or, if not, whether the Minister will support to the African Union to enable ensure that such reference by Channel 9 it to expand its mission in Sudan, and ceases immediately; and (vii) the Security Council has proposed to (d) if the name has been used without ap- meet in Nairobi on 18 and 19 Novem- proval, calls on the Minister to request a ber 2004, at which time it will discuss public apology from the Chief Executive the crisis in Darfur; Officer of the Australian Rugby League (b) welcomes the signing of humanitarian and for the misuse of the word ‘ANZACS’. security accords between the Sudanese Question agreed to. Government and rebels on 10 November HUMAN RIGHTS: DARFUR 2004; (c) acknowledges the Australian Govern- Senator BARTLETT (Queensland— ment’s provision of $20 million in hu- Leader of the Australian Democrats) (9.40 manitarian assistance to Sudan and its of- a.m.)—At the request of Senator Stott De- fer to assist the African Union mission by spoja, I move: providing the use of two C-l30 Hercules That the Senate— transport aircraft; (a) notes: (d) calls on the Australian Government to: (i) the briefing provided to the United (i) as a matter of urgency, provide addi- Nations Security Council by the Secre- tional, generous support to help facili- tary-General’s Special Representative tate the expansion of the African Union for Sudan on 4 November 2004, indi- mission, and cating that ‘the Sudanese Government (ii) make immediate representations to made no progress last month in either Security Council members, prior to the stopping militia attacks against civil- meeting in Nairobi, regarding the need ians in Darfur, disarming those armed for urgent action to prevent further loss groups or prosecuting the individuals of life and suffering within Sudan and responsible for the worst atrocities’, neighbouring Chad; and (ii) there are now approximately 1.45 mil- (e) calls on the Sudanese Government to take lion internally displaced persons within immediate action to disarm militia groups, Sudan and the number of Sudanese prevent further attacks against civilians, refugees in Chad has risen to 200 000, and prosecute the perpetrators of atroci- (iii) there have been fresh reports of attacks ties. against internally displaced persons in Question agreed to. the Darfur region, BUDGET (iv) UNICEF has reported that armed mili- tias continue to rape women and girls Consideration by Legislation Committees in the Darfur region with impunity, in- Additional Information cluding numerous reports of gang Senator HARRADINE (Tasmania) (9.40 rapes, a.m.)—I move:

CHAMBER 6 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004

That answers be provided by 31 January 2005 economy also growing strongly. The imple- to: mentation date is planned for 1 January (a) estimates questions on notice lodged with 2005, which is also the day that the US- legislation committees in the course of the Australia free trade agreement is planned to estimates hearings in May and June 2004; start. This is not coincidental. It shows that and while Australia pursues its multilateral re- (b) estimates questions on notice lodged with sponsibilities with vigour, particularly with legislation committees by 2 December respect to the WTO and APEC, it is also de- 2004. termined to create close personal bilateral Question agreed to. relationships and agreements with like- PETITIONS minded trading nations—particularly with Same-Sex Couples the United States, also now with Thailand, previously with Singapore and hopefully in Senator NETTLE (New South Wales) the future with China and other countries in (9.41 a.m.)—I contacted all the whips last North Asia where Australia’s economic and night about seeking leave to table a petition strategic future lies in such strength. that is not in the correct wording. I have heard back that everybody was given leave, Bilateral trade between Australia and so I seek leave to table the petition. Thailand continues to grow. Statistically, Thailand was our 12th largest source of ex- The PRESIDENT—I understand that we ports in 2003 and our 13th largest source of only do this in exceptional circumstances. I imports, with two-way trade approaching $6 presume that the whips understand that. billion. Major Australian exports to Thailand Leave granted. include non-monetary gold, aluminium, cot- CUSTOMS AMENDMENT (THAILAND- ton, wool, dairy products and copper. Major AUSTRALIA FREE TRADE imports include motor vehicles, heating and AGREEMENT IMPLEMENTATION) cooling equipment, computers, crude petro- BILL 2004 leum and seafood. Unfortunately, relatively CUSTOMS TARIFF AMENDMENT high tariffs and other market access restric- (THAILAND-AUSTRALIA FREE tions have constrained export growth for TRADE AGREEMENT Australian producers and primary producers. IMPLEMENTATION) BILL 2004 Thailand’s average applied tariff is around 15 per cent but with much higher peaks for Second Reading some products, including various processed Debate resumed from 17 November, on foods and beverages. motion by Senator Patterson: In order to implement the Thailand- That these bills be now read a second time. Australia free trade agreement, two pieces of Senator SANDY MACDONALD (New legislation require amendment—and that is South Wales) (9.42 a.m.)—The implementa- what we are talking about today—firstly, the tion of the Thailand-Australia free trade Customs Act 1901 and, secondly, the Cus- agreement will be of importance to both Aus- toms Tariff Act 1995. Passage of these tralia and Thailand and builds on the very amendments is the primary process in our close personal, economic and strategic part- domestic implementation, and the prompt nership between Thailand’s 65 million peo- passage of this legislation will allow us to ple, with their economy growing strongly, meet the target date, as I said, of 1 January and Australia’s 20 million people, with our 2005, which is the date we have agreed on

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 7 with Thailand for entry into force. The growing economy in South-East Asia. It is amendments of the Customs Act will incor- really a very special relationship. Thailand’s porate the rules for determining whether economic performance over the past few goods originate in Thailand and are therefore years has been strong and Prime Minister eligible for preferential duty rates, and the Thaksin’s government is promoting policies product-specific rules are modelled on those that are aimed at building a more open and applied in the Australia-United States free regulated economy—and he is doing it very trade agreement. The amendments also allow well. Customs to conduct verification of Austra- The Thailand-Australia free trade agree- lian exporters to ensure that the goods they ment will be Thailand’s first comprehensive export to Thailand are produced in Australia. free trade agreement with a developed econ- I should make it very clear that these new omy. It will be Australia’s fourth free trade rules have been endorsed by Australian busi- agreement and the second with an ASEAN ness as a cheap and easy way to prove origin. member. It is also the first FTA between a I have to say that the negotiation of these developed and a developing country in the FTAs is now pretty well covered by our Min- region, and it sets the benchmark for future ister for Trade, the Hon. Mark Vaile, and by trade liberalisation in the region. I cannot the trade negotiations in the Department of state how pleasing it is that this free trade Foreign Affairs and Trade. agreement has been signed. It really is very, The Customs Tariff Act will need to be very exciting. It is a good arrangement with amended also to codify the preferential duty good access, and our future and our trade rates incorporated in the Thailand-Australia links lie both in South-East Asia and in free trade agreement and the volume- North Asia, so it is very important. triggered special safeguard mechanism This agreement is a major marketing which will apply to imports of Thai tuna and agreement. It will lead to the complete pineapple, two important Thai imports into elimination of Thailand’s significant trade Australia. This agreement was negotiated barriers across all sectors, for some tariffs are over eight negotiating sessions conducted in up to 200 per cent, and substantially improve Australia and Thailand from August 2002 to the environment for services, trade and in- October 2003. The agreement was signed by vestment. The agreement will also create Mr Vaile and his Thai counterpart in Can- improved conditions for broad commercial berra on 5 July during the visit to Australia and regulatory cooperation between Austra- of Prime Minister Thaksin and nine of his lia and Thailand and improved business mo- cabinet ministers. That visit underlined the bility at a time when that is becoming in- high priority that the Thai government ac- creasingly important. cords to this agreement, as does the Austra- On entry into force, more than half of lian government. Thailand’s 5,000 tariffs, accounting for I have to say that this is an outstanding re- nearly 80 per cent of Australian exports, will sult. This is a very important agreement. It is be eliminated. Over $700 million of current a very important country; it is a very impor- Australian exports to Thailand will benefit tant neighbour to Australia. It demonstrates immediately from tariff cuts in the first year the government’s commitment to opening up alone, and it is estimated that Australian ex- new opportunities for Australian exporters porters could save around $100 million in and investors in East Asia, and it will link customs duties. Tariffs not immediately Australia to the second largest and fastest

CHAMBER 8 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004 eliminated will be phased down, and 95 per the tariff and tariff rate quota on rice. This cent of all current trade between Australia means that the tariff on wheat gluten, which and Thailand will be completely free by is exported to Thailand for its prawn indus- 2010. Longer phase-out periods and special try—and I suspect that quite a few of the quota arrangements will apply to a small imported prawns that come into this country number of agricultural goods. Importantly, are fed on Australian wheat gluten—will be the tariff preferences contained in this reduced to nought per cent. On beef, Thai- agreement are only available to Australian land will immediately reduce the tariff to 40 exporters and therefore give them an enor- per cent, down from 51 per cent, and, for mous advantage over their competitors in an beef offal, to 30 per cent, down from 33 per increasingly sophisticated Thai market. cent, and will phase these rates to zero in Many Australian companies formerly locked 2020. out of the Thai market by high tariffs and As Australia already grants tariff-free ac- quotas will now enjoy new opportunities, cess to many Thai products, Australia’s tariff particularly in areas such as agriculture, commitments in the agreement are slightly processed food and beverages, and automo- more modest than those of Thailand. Of par- tive products. ticular note is that Australia will grant im- I should say that the most important thing, proved access for Thai imports of automotive particularly for agricultural producers, is products, textiles, clothing and footwear, market access. After you have market access, steel and plastics, and chemicals subject to if you have a good product, you can succeed tariff phasing arrangements. In all cases, but if you have no market access you cannot. these phasing arrangements were developed This agreement provides that market access. following extensive consultation with Aus- After that, just as in examples you can see in tralian industry groups. the United States with lamb, once the market In the long term, dynamic gains from the is exposed to Australian product, it likes it Thailand-Australia free trade agreement and the product stands and succeeds on its promise to yield even larger benefits to the own quality and price. Australian economy and to Australian fami- On industrial tariffs, Thailand will imme- lies. The Centre for International Economics diately eliminate its 80 per cent tariff on has estimated that the agreement will result large passenger motor vehicles and will re- in a boost to the Australian economy of at duce its 80 per cent tariff on other passenger least $2.4 billion over the first 20 years of its vehicles to 30 per cent, phasing to zero in operation. The agreement has other impor- 2010. Tariffs on all automotive parts, com- tant economic effects on Australia. So over- ponents and accessories, currently up to 42 all it is a good story; it has been well negoti- per cent, will be immediately reduced to a ated. ceiling of 20 per cent and then phased to zero I make the point that, apart from the direct in 2010. Thai tariffs on machinery and economic benefits, the implementation of the equipment currently up to 30 per cent will Thailand-Australia free trade agreement will either be immediately eliminated or phased also enhance Australia’s broader trade, eco- down to zero by 2010. And Thailand will nomic and security interests in the region—a immediately eliminate the current tariff on region that is of such vital importance to us wheat, ad valorem equivalent of between 12 and a region, of course, in which this gov- and 20 per cent; barley, rye and oats, ad ernment has been able to build very, very valorem equivalents of up to 25 per cent; and

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 9 strong links. A substantive and comprehen- However, while supporting these bills, sive FTA between our two countries will sig- Labor is concerned that the government did nal strong support for multilateral, regional not take the opportunity provided in the Thai and bilateral liberalisation initiatives, and it FTA negotiations to raise the issue of labour will also create an open and regional trading standards and the environment. Accordingly, environment and promote strength and sta- I move: bility in the region. I thoroughly support the At the end of the motion, add: legislation. “but the Senate notes the Government’s failure (Quorum formed) to include provisions in the Thailand-Australia Senator CONROY (Victoria) (9.56 Free Trade Agreement covering labour and the a.m.)—I welcome the opportunity to partici- environment”. pate in this debate on the Customs Amend- Labor’s overriding trade policy priority is the ment (Thailand-Australia Free Trade Agree- WTO Doha Round of multilateral trade ne- ment Implementation) Bill 2004 and the gotiations. This is because the WTO offers Customs Tariff Amendment (Thailand- the largest potential economic and trade Australia Free Trade Agreement Implemen- gains for Australia and is the largest potential tation) Bill 2004. Whilst this debate is about stimulus for world economic growth. Labor the Thailand-Australia FTA, it also provides governments have a proud record when it an opportunity to highlight again the flawed comes to international trade negotiations. trade policy that this government has been Labor established the Cairns Group of agri- pursuing. It is apparent from Australia’s dis- cultural free traders in 1986. The Cairns astrous export performance that the Howard Group put agriculture on the international government’s trade policy has been misdi- trade agenda and has kept it there against rected. Australia has historically been a key strong resistance. Through smart, middle- contributor to and a great beneficiary of the power diplomacy, Labor governments tack- multilateral trading system previously known led the difficult issues of international trade as GATT and now known as the World Trade negotiations head-on. In contrast, this gov- Organisation. ernment has failed in its duty to play a key role in driving the Doha Round as Labor Incapable of rising to the challenge of drove the Uruguay Round in the 1980s. multilateral trade negotiations, the immediately resorted to the Confronted by the challenges and difficul- suboptimal path of bilateral trade agree- ties of multilateral trade negotiations, this ments. This has been to the detriment of Aus- government has chosen the less productive tralia’s trading interests and the future pros- approach of bilateral FTAs. By their nature, pects of Australia’s export industries. While FTAs are discriminatory against our other critical of the direction of the government’s trading partners outside of the deal. They are trade policy, Labor will support the FTAs if also unable to tackle agriculture export and they are shown to be in the national interest domestic subsidies that do so much damage and if they do contribute to our multilateral to international markets. Last week, the IMF trading objectives. On these two counts, La- endorsed Labor’s view that bilateral agree- bor is of the view that the Australia-Thailand ments can reduce the political will for unilat- free trade agreement is in Australia’s national eral trade liberalisation in the region and di- interests. lute efforts to conclude successfully the WTO negotiations. That is the view of the IMF—an organisation not noted for being

CHAMBER 10 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004 rampant socialists or opponents of trade. And There will be no ducking, no weaving and that is where this government gets it continu- nowhere to hide, Senator Minchin. ally wrong. Australia and Thailand have been devel- We are all aware of how dismal the gov- oping an increasingly broad based bilateral ernment’s achievements have been on the relationship, building on our mutual interests export front. Australian exports of goods and in a range of areas, particularly in relation to services have fallen over the past three years. trade and investment. Australia and Thailand Under Labor, average annual export growth have also been working together coopera- was 8.1 per cent. Under this government, tively in regional and multilateral fora in- export growth is less than half that achieved cluding APEC, which Thailand hosted very by Labor at 3.6 per cent. Across the board, successfully last year, and the Cairns Group exports have plummeted and the government of agricultural exporters. The objective of has used every excuse under the sun to try TAFTA is to more closely integrate our two and deflect responsibility for this disastrous economies and to deepen Australia’s trade outcome. We have all heard that it was the and investment links with the second largest drought or the international economic slow- and fastest-growing economy in South-East down or our dollar was too high or our com- Asia. petitor’s dollar was too low—all those ex- TAFTA will liberalise two-way trade in cuses never stacked up. It has always been goods between our two countries. It will also clear that this government coasted off the liberalise investment and services arrange- back of a low Australian dollar for too long ments in a small number of sectors in which and never had the strategy to improve our Australian business is pursuing opportuni- export performance when the dollar ties. Labor’s assessment is that there are strengthened. positive benefits in this deal for Australia, Last year, Australia recorded its largest and that is why we are supporting these bills. ever trade deficit—a massive $24 billion— TAFTA is comprehensive in that no traded and its largest ever current account deficit of goods sectors are carved out of the deal—as $47 billion, which is equivalent to six per was the case with the exclusion of sugar in cent of GDP. With a huge current account the Australia-US FTA. While TAFTA does deficit at a time of rising global interest rates, not exclude any goods sectors, a great deal of the task of attracting international capital to disappointment has been expressed about the finance the deficit becomes increasingly length of time it will take to reach free trade harder, placing upward pressure on Austra- in many agricultural products. TAFTA will lia’s interest rates. This is the direct fault of a not achieve free trade in dairy until 2025— government that promised to keep interest 20 years down the track. That is an extraor- rates down. It is creating circumstances that dinarily long time for an outcome in a trade will push interest rates up. Despite a stronger deal. That also happens to be five years after international economy, and our terms of the APEC Bogor goals of free trade and in- trade being at their highest in 28 years, Aus- vestment in the region are to be in place. tralia has now recorded 29 monthly trade Other agricultural products are also sub- deficits in a row. So much for the govern- ject to very lengthy lead-in periods before ment’s record as an economic manager! Thailand’s tariffs will be cut to zero. It will When the chickens come home to roost and take 15 years to reach free trade in Australian interest rates start rising, the Australian pub- exports of meat, sugar and potatoes. It will lic will know exactly where to put the blame.

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 11 take 10 years to achieve free trade in Austra- minimum age. If it was good enough to in- lian exports to Thailand of fruit, seafood, clude a chapter on labour in the US FTA, wine and some industrial products. Other TAFTA should also set out the obligations of Australian exports will have to wait up to both parties on labour issues. The environ- five years before they benefit fully from mental obligations of Australia and Thailand TAFTA. These include small motor vehicles, are not addressed under TAFTA. textile products, raw materials, pharmaceuti- In stark contrast to the US FTA, TAFTA cals and rubber products. These are extraor- does not include any reference to the concept dinarily lengthy phase-in periods to which of sustainable development or the impor- the Minister for Trade agreed to conclude tance of assessing the environmental impact this deal. In contrast, nearly all of Australia’s of the agreement. This is another major over- tariffs applying to imports from Thailand sight on the part of Minister Vaile and is an will be eliminated on the first day of this issue that should be addressed further down agreement entering into force on 1 January the track as the bilateral relationship with next year. Thailand continues to develop. In truth, I do This deal also includes very generous not think it was an oversight. This govern- rules of origin arrangements applying to tex- ment is not committed to core labour stan- tile, clothing and footwear products arriving dards or to basic environmental protections. from Thailand. These rules will be difficult That is why they are not in the agreement— to enforce and have the potential to give rise because this government does not care about to illegal transshipments of textile products them. through Thailand to Australia. They are a Concern has also been raised about the in- great concern to the Australian TCF industry, clusion of an investor state dispute settle- which is already under pressure from reduc- ment mechanism in TAFTA. Investor state tions in Australia’s TCF tariffs and greater dispute settlement is often greatly misunder- international competition. stood in international trade law. Some in our Concern has also been expressed about the community see it as a stalking horse to chal- potential impact of this deal on Australia’s lenge federal, state or local laws on all types quarantine arrangements. The Australian of matters which may affect investment deci- Chicken Meat Federation is determined to sions, such as environmental, health, human ensure the FTA does not in any way under- rights and labour laws. It is entirely appro- mine the integrity of Australia’s quarantine priate that the Australia-US FTA did not in- system. Thailand’s recent experience with clude an investor state provision as both par- numerous avian diseases, including avian ties to that agreement are developed econo- influenza, highlights the importance of en- mies with transparent and rigorous systems suring Australia’s quarantine system is not of law. However, Thailand’s status as a de- compromised in trade negotiations. veloping country necessitates the inclusion It is disappointing the government did not of an investor state provision to give cer- use the FTA negotiations to raise with Thai- tainty to Australian business about its legal land its failure to observe core labour stan- rights when investing in Thailand. As a de- dards. According to the International Con- veloped economy, Australia has a sound and federation of Free Trade Unions, Thailand transparent system of law, greatly reducing has not ratified the ILO conventions on the the prospect of Thai investors resorting to the right to organise and collective bargaining, investor-state mechanism to seek resolution freedom of association, discrimination and of any dispute they may have.

CHAMBER 12 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004

I must also note for the record that the including in dairy, horticultural and other Joint Standing Committee on Treaties has not agricultural products. completed its inquiry into the Thai FTA. This It is for these reasons that Labor is sup- is a poor reflection on the government’s porting these bills. We are concerned about commitment to transparency in the treaty the failure of the agreement to deal properly making process and is indicative of their un- with labour standards and the environment, willingness to allow the parliament to under- and for that reason I will move a second take full scrutiny of treaties before they take reading amendment. However, the FTA will effect. So they are already trampling over give rise to greater access for Australian their claimed commitment to transparency— business to the Thai market. It is comprehen- and that is before we get to 1 July. We have sive in scope—albeit with long phase-in pe- seen the government’s behaviour before 1 riods for the abolition of some of Thailand’s July—just walking over parliamentary pro- tariffs. Importantly, it will contribute to trade cedures. Imagine what is going to be happen- liberalisation in the Asia-Pacific region and ing after 1 July. contribute to the advancement of Australia’s Despite numerous problems with the con- multilateral trade objectives. tent of the Thai FTA, it does provide benefits Senator RIDGEWAY (New South Wales) for Australian business. TAFTA will liberal- (10.12 a.m.)—I rise on behalf of the Austra- ise two-way trade in goods and in some im- lian Democrats to talk on the Customs portant investment and services sectors. The Amendment (Thailand-Australia Free Trade majority of tariffs in both countries will be Agreement Implementation) Bill 2004 and reduced to zero on implementation of the the Customs Tariff Amendment (Thailand- agreement. The reduction in Thailand’s tar- Australia Free Trade Agreement Implemen- iffs—some of which are as high as 200 per tation) Bill 2004. Whilst the Australian De- cent—will provide considerable benefit to mocrats are not opposed to free trade agree- Australian industries pursuing business op- ments, we want to put on the record our re- portunities with Thailand. Under this deal, 49 gard for the need to ensure that trade agree- per cent of tariff lines in Thailand will im- ments are fair and that there is an opportu- mediately go to zero and these account for nity for Australia to observe both process and 78 per cent of Thai imports. TAFTA will give substance in terms of what is contained Australian business an advantage over their within these agreements and how they are competitors in a market that has traditionally arrived at. In this case, whilst I want to criti- been highly protected. It does not suffer from cise some of the issues that are in the trade the exclusion of any sectors—such as the agreement, it is also relevant to highlight carve-out of sugar in the Australia-US FTA. some issues that are not there. The govern- It is therefore more comprehensive and, from ment certainly missed an enormous opportu- a multilateral trade policy point of view, a nity to deal with issues that are of concern to better outcome than the US FTA. Australians—certainly in places like Thai- The Australian automotive manufacturing land—and to send a very clear message to industry, in particular, is strongly supportive other parts of Asia. of this deal and the opportunities it will pro- Only a few short months ago I stood in vide to access the Thai automobile market. this chamber and fought hard to have the Notwithstanding the very long lead times for government face up to its responsibilities in cuts to some agricultural tariffs, there are the parliament about being accountable to benefits in the deal for Australian farmers

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 13 answer what were legitimate concerns of the I remember that exactly the same thing people of Australia about a free trade agree- happened when the Singapore-Australia Free ment with the United States. We all know Trade Agreement was voted on in this place that that came to nothing and, thanks to the last year. It was dealt with some time around compliance of the Australian Labor Party, the 3 a.m. So, in essence, there was no debate government got away with it. A couple of and speeches were read into Hansard. When months on, we are back in the same place. this government will not even give a passing The government continues to try to assure us nod to proper process and accountability you that it will not abuse its position of power have to ask the question: ‘How can we trust when it gains control of the Senate in July them to use their power responsibly when next year. However, we already know that it they do take control of both houses of par- will not think twice about avoiding scrutiny liament next year?’ and accountability wherever possible. This I now turn to some of the specifics of this legislation is yet another example of that. agreement, because the Howard government Here we are, in the first week of a parliamen- has made clear certain policy choices when it tary sitting, rushing through consideration of comes to trade. Certainly Advancing the na- a bill so that the government can implement tional interest: Australia’s foreign and trade this free trade agreement by 1 January next policy white paper, which was released in year. March last year, makes only a token refer- A while back the government introduced a ence to the importance of multilateral system whereby the Joint Standing Commit- agreements and clearly signals the govern- tee on Treaties would consider any treaty ment’s preference for bilateral initiatives. action that was entered into by the executive This is a fundamental problem, given Austra- and make recommendations to the parlia- lia’s limited ability to devote resources to ment about whether or not any treaty should both labour intensive functions. be implemented. That is a sound idea and It is no secret that the Australian Democ- one that the Australian Democrats have sup- rats support a multilateral approach to trade ported, because we believe that accountabil- negotiations. Multilateral trade agreements ity and scrutiny are always welcome in this such as those negotiated through the World place. Trade Organisation can deal with a wider Short of requiring parliamentary approval range of issues than bilateral FTAs. I think for treaties, which is the long, hard fought that is what needs to be criticised in this re- for position of the Democrats, we believe spect. We advocate the need for an interna- that there should be careful parliamentary tional system of rules for international trade. consideration of any binding treaty instru- The WTO needs reform to become more ac- ments before they are ratified. However, the countable, open and transparent, with clearly problem is that the government’s promises established rules and processes and certainly fall far short of reality. They have themselves a publicly accountable dispute resolution established a process that they have little process. regard and certainly no respect for. It is not The focus on bilateral FTAs, which this the first time that we are considering the leg- government seems hell-bent on, will also islative implementation of a treaty before the contribute to the potentially devastating trade JSCOT report has been tabled, and I fear it diversion effect. That has been confirmed will not be the last time that this practice and documented by the Productivity Com- occurs.

CHAMBER 14 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004 mission, yet it has been ignored. Given that matter for concern is that the CIE report con- the South-East Asia region is of critical im- tains no analysis of the likely effect of the portance in terms of Australia’s trade overall, agreement by state or by region. As the Aus- it is a dangerous path to take and I think one tralian Fair Trade and Investment Network that the government needs to be mindful of. has pointed out, the manufacturing, TCF and Further, there are several specific features of agriculture sectors are of most significance this FTA that mirror similar commitments in this agreement and are particularly impor- made in the free trade agreement with Singa- tant sectors in regional areas. The impact of pore and the free trade agreement with the trade agreements on regional areas should be US that the Senate considered only recently. examined publicly before negotiations are The Democrats’ opposition to the bills before finalised to allow informed decisions to be us now is consistent with our approach to made and to enable regional communities to both of those previous agreements. have the opportunity to give input to the We cannot support the FTA unless some process. fundamental aspects are addressed by the This has been a consistent omission in government, and I will outline some of them. DFAT’s analysis of trade agreements and it The first one is about a triple bottom line continues with the Thai free trade agreement. approach. It seems to me that the govern- Wide-ranging FTAs such as this one will ment once again commissioned the Centre have an impact on every aspect of Australia’s for International Economics to model the future, not just on mere economics. It is time impact of this agreement on the Australian for the government to endorse a triple bottom economy and, not surprisingly, the CIE have line approach when analysing the benefits reported in favour of the agreement. They and costs of its actions. I think Australians have estimated that TAFTA will result in deserve to know what those impacts are go- $US2.4 billion additional GDP to Australia ing to be. over its first 20 years of operation. Accord- The Thai-Australia free trade agreement ing to the CIE, the agreement will increase uses a positive list approach for services, real consumption in Australia by $US1.6 which is a vast improvement on the negative billion over the same period. But you have to list approach that was taken in the Singapore ask these questions about that assessment: and US free trade agreements. We under- ‘Where is the analysis of the impact of this stand that the agreement has a positive list agreement on the environment; where is the only because the Thai government refused a consideration of the price that may be paid in negative list structure, presumably because terms of the social goals—our social objec- the Thai government wished to retain some tives—of the nation; and, if the provision of ability to continue to regulate services and public services is eroded through this agree- did not want to go beyond the WTO-GATS ment, what impact will that have on Austra- framework, which has a positive list struc- lian communities?’ ture approach. It is interesting to note that in In their submission to the JSCOT investi- this respect the Thai government did have gation of this FTA, the Australian Manufac- the strength to stand up to the Australian ne- turing Workers Union made the very valid gotiators. I do not believe the same can be point that the CIE report used a vastly over- said for our negotiating team when it came to simplified model that does not take into ac- pursuing our objectives at the negotiating count the likely impact of the agreement on table for a free trade agreement with the individual sectors in our economy. A further United States.

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 15

The text of the free trade agreement in- sue the Australian government for damages, cludes an exemption for services supplied in either in national courts or in one of the two the exercise of governmental authority. The international arbitration panels, UNCITRAL agreement uses the same definition as the and ICSID, which do not provide the levels WTO General Agreement on Trade in Ser- of openness of regular courts. vices—that is, any service which is supplied This is a serious limitation on national neither on a commercial basis nor in compe- sovereignty. It gives multinational corpora- tition with one or more service suppliers. It is tions an unacceptable right to interfere with the same definition that is used in the WTO the Australian democratic process. I think General Agreement on Trade in Services. As Australians deserve to know, and I think the we have said in the past with respect to other government needs to be mindful of how it free trade agreements, it is ambiguous given proposes to deal with these situations when that so many essential public services either they arise in the future. As we know from the have been privatised or are in the process of North American Free Trade Agreement ex- becoming so and many are supplied in a na- perience, US corporations have used the tionally competitive environment. same mechanisms to sue the Mexican and The government has repeatedly assured us Canadian governments for hundreds of mil- that public services will not be under threat lions of dollars. The examples that were from free trade agreements of any sort that it quoted in previous debates, such as the US has entered into. If that is the case, why not Metalclad Corporation and the Ethyl Corpo- include a specific exemption to that effect? ration cases, are frightening examples of Why leave us with a dangerously ambiguous what can happen with investor-to-state dis- definition which has yet to be tested at the pute resolution mechanisms such as those WTO level and which may be subject to a far that are likely to be put in place under this narrower interpretation than the government agreement. might be anticipating? If public services are Possibly the worst aspect of this is that our not meant to be included then the text itself negotiators did not agree to a dispute settle- should be very clear and specific about that, ment mechanism of this kind when negotiat- yet we do not see that there. ing with the United States. However, we are Another matter of concern is the investor- now seeking to impose this condition upon state dispute resolution process. The FTA our Thai neighbours. DFAT itself says on its does set a very dangerous precedent in one web site that this FTA: particular respect: our government have … will link Australia to the second largest and agreed to allow for investor-state dispute fastest growing economy in South East Asia. It resolution mechanisms in this agreement, will be Thailand’s first comprehensive free trade just as they did in the case of the Singapore agreement with a developed economy and free trade agreement. What does this all Australia’s fourth free trade agreement. It is also mean? It is an alarming restriction on the the first FTA between a developed and developing ability of future democratically elected gov- country in South East Asia and sets a benchmark for future trade liberalisation in the region. ernments to regulate as they see fit. An in- vestor-state dispute settlement mechanism If this is the benchmark, the future looks essentially enables a corporation to take legal bleak. I want to take a moment to consider action if they can argue that any of our laws the precedent that is being set with this free or regulations are inconsistent with the free trade agreement. trade agreement. They will have the power to

CHAMBER 16 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004

The government likes to say that Australia factured in situations involving human rights has a definite commitment to specific devel- abuses. opment goals in our region. The purpose be- There is considerable evidence to suggest hind AusAID is to advance Australia’s inter- that garment workers, for example, in Thai- ests by assisting developing countries to re- land work in terrible conditions for very little duce poverty and achieve sustainable devel- pay. Tariff concessions in this free trade opment. It seems to me that negotiating a agreement will give manufacturers a price trade agreement with a country such as Thai- advantage in the Australian marketplace and land does provide an enormous opportunity will provide no incentive to redress the situa- to incorporate our development goals with tion that occurs in Thailand. The Justice and our trade policies and to ensure that the two International Mission Unit of the Uniting objectives complement each other. AFTINET Church go on to say in their submission that has made the point that: the treaty action should: Other countries have incorporated their develop- ... not be taken until human rights and labour ment goals into their trade policies. For example rights standards are specifically recognised in the Canada and New Zealand have adopted particular Free Trade Agreement and measures incorporated measures within their GATS strategies to take into the agreement that would ensure that these account of the impact of trade negotiations on standards are upheld. least developed countries. Such an approach of- And, at the very least: fers a more internally consistent approach to for- eign policy, and ensures that development issues These measures should include: are not confined to questions of aid provision. Reciprocal agreements of monitoring for human When it comes to dealing with issues like rights standards in manufacturing be introduced. human rights abuses, the exploitation of Human rights violations should be documented children, child sex tourism and all of the and perpetrators of such violations should be pub- things that we are familiar with, there was licised within Thailand and Australia. certainly an opportunity to reach out and deal Penalties be applied where incidences of human with these in some form under the free trade rights violations in the manufacture of goods is agreement—at least to the extent of bringing recognised. This may be included in planned amendments to the Customs Tariff Act 1995 and our social policies and trade policies to- the Customs Act 1901 to incorporate penalty tariff gether. rates that will apply to goods imported from Thai- Another opportunity that has been missed land under the FTA where there is evidence of in this free trade agreement is to ensure, as I human rights violations in the manufacture of have said, that human rights in Thailand are goods. promoted and respected. The Uniting Church Penalties should be applied to Australian compa- stated in their submission to the Joint Stand- nies who knowingly import goods from Thailand, ing Committee on Treaties in consideration or produce goods in Thailand that have been of this FTA: manufactured with human rights abuses. Thailand has not signed ILO Convention 87, ILO When we consider the absence of these is- Convention 98 nor ratified the International sues being raised in the free trade agreement, Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural we ought to be concerned about a great op- Rights. Australia is the first developed nation to portunity overlooked and missed by the gov- negotiate a FTA with Thailand. The Australian ernment. It is not enough to say that we Government therefore had the opportunity to should just look at it from a single, bottom- model an equitable agreement that does not pro- line approach—that is, economic gains. We mote the exchange of goods that have been manu-

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 17 have to look at both social and environ- has resorted to a suboptimal path of a range mental outcomes. That analysis has not been of bilateral trade deals, such as the Thailand- done. On balance, the Australian Democrats Australia free trade agreement which we are believe that, while the agreement is set with debating. Throughout the ’s term, the right intentions, the government has not the government has squandered the opportu- gone far enough. The agreement does not go nity to drive the WTO Doha Round; been to the question of dealing with our national negligent in multilateral trade responsibili- interest, nor does it deal with the question of ties; allowed the Cairns Group to drift and what is in the best interest of regions right diminish in importance; and undermined across the country—there simply has not regional trade by ignoring the capabilities of been an analysis done. We do not know, for APEC. The Howard government has also example, what the effect is going to be on been single-mindedly obsessed with the de- many of our own manufacturing industries, velopment of FTAs which have the effect of particularly the textile, clothing and footwear discriminating against our existing trading industry. That analysis is really scant and, partners; offering fewer economic benefits quite frankly, little assurance is given to Aus- than multilateral deals; being unable to tralian industries that they can be interna- tackle agricultural export and domestic sub- tionally competitive and compete with their sidies; and dissipating limited trade negotia- counterparts in Thailand. tion resources that could be utilised to de- I note that there are two second reading velop far more beneficial agreements amendments; one is being put forward by the through the WTO. opposition. On behalf of the Australian De- The government’s failure in trade is evi- mocrats, I indicate that we will be supporting dent in its record, and it is worth having a both amendments. The two bills before us, look at it. The current coalition government dealing with a free trade agreement with is responsible for Australia’s worst trade per- Thailand, fail on a number of fronts. For formance in postwar history; a drop in the those reasons, the Australian Democrats will export of goods and services over the last not be supporting them. three years; an average annual export growth Senator LUNDY (Australian Capital Ter- of only 3.6 per cent, compared to 8.1 per ritory) (10.31 a.m.)—I welcome the oppor- cent growth under Labor; Australia’s largest tunity to participate in this debate on the ever trade deficit of $24 billion and largest Thailand-Australia free trade agreement in ever current account deficit of $47 billion. my capacity as shadow minister for manu- This effectively places upward pressure on facturing. My colleague Simon Crean in the our interest rates, which the coalition has House of Representatives yesterday and, as promised to keep low! Foreign debt has you have just heard, my colleague Senator nearly doubled under its reign and now Conroy have discussed in great detail the stands at $393 billion—and we have a Prime broader issue of trade policy, contrasting Minister who has promised to reduce that Labor’s approach with the Howard govern- debt. ment’s flawed trade policy, which is clearly Labor have repeatedly said that we will not in Australia’s best interests. support bilateral free trade agreements if The Howard government is unable to han- they are shown to be in the national interest dle the challenges and difficulties of multi- and are consistent with advancing Australia’s lateral trade negotiations. This government multilateral trade objectives. The govern- ment must ensure that the parliament and the

CHAMBER 18 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004 public are fully informed of the content and include any reference to the concept of sus- implications of these deals when they are tainable development or the importance of announced. With this in mind, I note that assessing the environmental impact of the once again the federal parliament is dealing agreement. That is why Labor’s amendment with legislation which has been brought for- is important, particularly in the context of ward to this place before the tabling of rele- this agreement not providing any protection vant committee reports. for core labour standards, which are con- In this case, the Joint Standing Committee tained in the International Labour Organisa- on Treaties—which affords the parliament an tion’s Declaration on Fundamental Principles opportunity to undertake at least some level and Rights at Work. These standards include of scrutiny of treaties before they take af- the right of workers and employers to free- fect—has not yet completed its inquiry into dom of association and the effective right to the Thai free trade agreement. This is arro- collective bargaining, conventions 87 and 98; gant in the extreme. The government’s disre- the elimination of all forms of forced or gard of the democratic processes afforded by compulsory labour, conventions 29 and 105; the committee inquiry once again highlights the effective abolition of child labour, con- the shallowness of the government’s com- ventions 138 and 182; and the elimination of mitment to transparency in the treaty-making discrimination in respect of employment and process. occupation, conventions 100 and 111. That said, Labor has examined the agree- The failure of the Howard government not ment, finding that it offers improved access to ensure inclusion of a chapter on enforce- to Thailand for Australia’s manufacturing, able core labour standards is particularly agriculture and services sectors. For this rea- concerning in this free trade agreement, be- son, Labor will be supporting the Customs cause Thailand has not ratified three of the Amendment (Thailand-Australia Free Trade eight ILO conventions containing core la- Agreement Implementation) Bill 2004 and bour standards, including the ILO conven- the Customs Tariff Amendment (Thailand- tions relating to freedom of association and Australia Free Trade Agreement Implemen- the right to collective bargaining. This failure tation) Bill 2004, as has already been made to commit to ILO core labour standards must clear. But consistent with the Labor amend- be seen in the context of the Thai work force ment moved in the other place and in the where it has been observed that wages and Senate by my colleague Senator Conroy, conditions are generally low for most work- Labor notes the government’s failure to in- ers. Collective bargaining is uncommon. clude provisions in the free trade agreement Wage increases for the majority of workers covering labour and the environment. If it come from rises in the minimum wage rather was good enough to include a chapter on than through collective bargaining. Mini- labour in the Australia-United States free mum wages are set by provincial committees trade agreement, then this agreement should that sometimes include only employer repre- also set out the obligations of both parties on sentation. In 2003 the minimum wage ranged labour issues. from 133 baht to 168 baht per day. This equates to around $A4.60 to $A5.80 per day. The Australia-Thai free trade agreement The low minimum wages are themselves fails to address the environmental obligations poorly enforced. As a consequence, around of each party under the deal. In stark contrast one-third of the formal sector workers re- to the US free trade agreement, it does not ceive less than the minimum wage and mi-

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 19 grant workers generally receive less than the Submissions to the inquiry undertaken by minimum wage. the Joint Standing Committee on Treaties All members of the union executive must indicate that the consultation process was be full-time workers in an enterprise. This inadequate, with no nonbusiness community means that officials of a union must negoti- organisations or trade unions consulted on ate leave of absence with their employer to the contents of the agreement. The failure of undertake any trade union work. Civil ser- the Howard government to properly consult vants cannot join unions and are prohibited with all stakeholders, including the unions— from taking strike action. Health and safety despite representing the interests of tens of regulations are often poorly enforced and thousands of members who would be af- there is no law protecting employees who fected—is disconcerting, to say the least. It refuse to do dangerous work. The redress for shows a level of arrogance that is completely workers injured in industrial accidents is not unnecessary. Stakeholder groups such as timely or sufficient. And so the list goes on. trade unions are always going to take an in- terest in these free trade agreements and they All of these are genuine concerns. The do represent many members. It is the height coalition government had the opportunity to of arrogance to somehow pretend that they insert a reference to core labour standards in will not have a view and to ignore their this agreement and they chose not to. The views. I think it shows a level of pettiness absence of such provisions is a damning in- that is completely unnecessary. dictment of the Howard government. The Australian government have a high level of Also of concern is that no detailed eco- moral obligation and responsibility to pro- nomic analysis of the likely effects of the vide leadership, and this is one way they can agreement has been undertaken. Certainly do it. When engaging in free trade agreement there is no publicly available analysis of the negotiations such as this there is opportunity likely effects of the agreement on any sector to assist those in other countries who are of the manufacturing industry. The effects of working in suboptimal standards. the agreement by state or region have not been considered, nor does any analysis ap- In the context of these specific concerns I pear to have been undertaken of the likely would also like to turn to the issues pertain- effects on wages and/or employment in Aus- ing to manufacturing and the agreement’s tralia or Thailand. While the Centre for In- impact on this sector. Labor points to the fact ternational Economics did conduct the only that there has been a distinct lack of consul- economic study available, it appears seri- tation with key parties affected by the ously flawed, failing to assess the impact on TAFTA and very little or no social or eco- individual sectors. This is particularly worry- nomic analysis of the effects of the tariff re- ing in terms of the manufacturing sector, ductions to be made under this agreement. It given that the automotive and textiles, cloth- is quite easy to recall—it was not that long ing and footwear sectors will be specifically ago—the efforts of the Labor initiated in- impacted. quiry into the US free trade agreement to have that economic analysis work done. I will make a few comments on the auto- There has not been any work like that done motive sector before I turn to the TCF sector. on this agreement and that leaves a huge gap Australian automotive manufacturers have in our ability to assess its impact. been identified as significant beneficiaries of the agreement. This sector currently con- fronts a tariff of 80 per cent on passenger

CHAMBER 20 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004 motor vehicles and up to 42 per cent on ing on the product, from 1 January 2005. The automotive component exports to Thailand. TCF Union of Australia, the TCFUA, has Under the operation of the TAFTA on 1 expressed concern about increased imports January, Thailand will eliminate its tariff on from Thailand following tariff reduction as large passenger motor vehicles that are above well as the possibility of illegal trans- 3,000 cc and reduce its tariff for small and shipments from neighbouring countries. medium vehicles to 30 per cent. The tariff on These concerns of this industry also need to small and medium vehicles will be phased be taken seriously. down to zero by 2010 in five equal instal- Labor certainly recognises that Thailand ments. Thailand’s import tariffs on most auto accounts for at least a small proportion of parts and accessories will be reduced to a Australia’s textile imports. In 2002 Thailand ceiling of 20 per cent and then phased to zero accounted for only 1.3 per cent of all of Aus- by 2010. In Australia the agreement will tralia’s clothing imports and 2.8 per cent of eliminate current tariffs on all passenger ve- its textile imports. Given the small amount of hicles, off-road vehicles, goods vehicles and imports currently purchased from Thailand, other commercial vehicles of Thai origin. any increase is expected to displace imports These tariffs are currently 15 per cent for from other sources, including China. It is passenger motor vehicles and five per cent important that the safeguard provisions be for other vehicles. The general rate is legis- closely monitored to ensure that they effec- lated to fall to 10 per cent on 1 January 2005 tively protect local industry against any and five per cent on 1 January 2010. damaging import surges resulting from the The Australian tariff on automotive parts reduction or elimination of tariffs. of between 10 per cent and 15 per cent will A key concern for many affected indus- in most cases fall to five per cent on entry tries during the development of the agree- into force of the agreement and then be ment was the integrity of Thailand’s borders. eliminated by 2010. Tariffs on auto parts of The concern is that Thai businesses could five per cent or below will be eliminated on obtain cheaper goods from neighbouring entry into force of the agreement. The metal countries, package them in Thailand and ex- workers union have specifically expressed port them to Australia duty free. The TCFUA their concern about this aspect of the agree- has also expressed concern about the rules of ment. I think it is important in this debate to origin applying to TCF products. The agree- note their concern in relation to automotive ment’s rules of origin use a change in tariff components and that of parts manufacturers, classification with a regional value content whose views are varied—there is not one level of 55 per cent. At least 30 per cent of homogeneous view in that group. Again, the the regional value content for these goods distinct lack of interest shown by the coali- must be sourced from Thailand, while the tion in properly evaluating the effects of the remaining 25 per cent may be sourced from a agreement on industries shows little respect developing country, but any content from a for this sector and the TCF sector, which I developing country is required to undergo will make a few comments on now. the same change in tariff classification that is In Australia the TCF industry currently required for non-originating inputs. These benefits from a range of tariffs depending on rules of origin are similar to those normally the product. Under this agreement general applying to developing countries and were TCF tariffs will fall to 17.5 per cent, 7.5 per demanded by Thailand to enable its TCF cent, 10 per cent and five per cent, depend- sector, which includes a large number of

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 21

SMEs, to access the tariff preference under address global inequity and which contain the free trade agreement. The TCFUA is robust safeguards for labour standards, hu- concerned that these rules of origin will be man rights and environmental protection. We difficult to enforce and will enable large support fair trade agreements; we do not quantities of non-Thailand textiles to enter support free trade agreements. The US FTA, Australia under the FTA at the preferential which we have heard today the government rate. The government suggests that, given intends to come into force on 1 January, is that the size of the tariff preference Australia not a fair trade agreement. It is unbalanced has offered to Thailand for TCF is only five and it is bad for Australia’s national interest. per cent or less until 2010, these rules of ori- Similarly, the Thai-Australia free trade gin are not likely to lead to significant in- agreement that we are debating today is un- creases in imports from Thailand in the first balanced and it will hurt some Australian five to 10 years after implementation. industries. But it will also be bad for the Thai What is also questionable is why the rules people, Thai society and the Thai economy. of origin in relation to the automotive sector As the only international political party rep- are more lax in the Thai FTA than in the US resented here, it is important for the Greens FTA. In the US FTA, the rules of origin to speak out about the way in which we can originally required a regional content value use such agreements, when we enter into of 50 per cent. However, this has since risen them, to address global inequity. It is some- to 62.5 per cent for automobiles, light trucks, thing that this free trade agreement specifi- engines and transmissions, and 60 per cent cally does not do. for other automotive products. It remains to The Thai free trade agreement was negoti- be seen why, despite the Productivity Com- ated during eight negotiating sessions con- mission’s 2002 Review of automotive assis- ducted in Australia and Thailand from Au- tance, report No. 25, reporting that average gust 2002 to October 2003. It was signed by local content of Australian produced vehicles Minister Vaile and his Thai counterpart in is around 75 per cent, the trade minister Canberra on 5 July this year during a visit to agreed to such a low rule of origin for pas- Australia by the Prime Minister of Thailand senger motor vehicles. and nine of his cabinet ministers. The trade Having noted these concerns in relation to agreement will be Thailand’s first compre- the manufacturing industry, particularly the hensive free trade agreement with a devel- automotive and TCF industries, and in the oped economy, and it is Australia’s fourth context again of reiterating the generally free trade agreement. It is also the first free flawed process to trade policy that has been trade agreement between a developed and a pursued by the coalition government, Labor developing country in South-East Asia. Ac- believes there are grounds for support for cording to the Australian government it will this free trade agreement. I certainly com- set a benchmark for future trade liberalisa- mend to the Senate the second reading tion in the region. amendment moved by my colleague Senator The agreement covers trade in goods, ser- Conroy, and I look forward to hearing other vices and investment, as well as promoting contributions. cooperation and benchmarks in a range of Senator NETTLE (New South Wales) areas, including competition policy, e- (10.47 a.m.)—The Greens support multilat- commerce, industrial standards, quarantine eral trade agreements with rules that seek to procedures, intellectual property, government procurement and dispute settlement. The

CHAMBER 22 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004

Thai free trade agreement will result in Thai employ large numbers of non-English- tariffs on virtually all goods imported from speaking workers in regional parts of this Australia being eliminated by 1 January country where there is high unemployment. 2010. Agriculture, processed foods and bev- Regional employment studies are needed and erages, mining and automotive products in should have been carried out to show the particular will be affected. Controls on for- impact of these tariff reductions. This could eign investment in Thailand by Australian be the very biggest impact of this agreement companies will be reduced in most sectors, in Australia. allowing majority control of important indus- In Thailand, Thai farmers have demon- tries by Australian companies in Thailand for strated in protest against the agreement be- the first time. The target date for the entry cause of real concerns about the impact on into force of the Thai-Australia free trade their industries. They oppose the agreement agreement is 1 January 2005 or as soon as because of the impact on Thai agriculture possible thereafter following the completion and food sovereignty, with the Thai dairy and by both countries of the domestic processes beef industries leading the opposition in necessary for implementation. That is the Thailand to this agreement. debate we are having here today. In 2003 In the services industry there is a big prob- Thailand was Australia’s 12th largest market lem with the way in which services are de- for exports and 13th largest source of im- fined in this agreement, which could nega- ports. Two-way trade was worth $5.9 billion. tively impact on public services in Australia Moving on to the issue of tariffs, the legis- and also Thailand in the future. The Austra- lation—the Customs Amendment (Thailand- lian Free Trade and Investment Network pro- Australia Free Trade Agreement Implemen- vided a submission to the JSCOT inquiry tation) Bill 2004 and the Customs Tariff into this agreement, an inquiry which is still Amendment (Thailand-Australia Free Trade currently under way and which has not re- Agreement Implementation) Bill 2004—will ported. The AFTINET submission states: have a negative impact on some Australian The TAFTA agreement contains the same industries, as I said earlier. This is not re- flawed definition of public services as the GATS flected in the economic assessments of this agreement— trade agreement conducted by our govern- that is, the General Agreement on Trade in ment. Australian industries that will be most Services. The submission continues: impacted on by the free trade agreement with Thailand are the automotive industry and the Article 803 clause 2 of TAFTA provides that the services chapter shall not apply to “a service textile industry. Australia has very low tariff supplied in the exercise of governmental author- barriers—averaging around five per cent— ity... which means any service which is supplied except in the vehicle industry and the cloth- neither on a commercial basis, nor in competition ing, footwear and textile industry where tar- with one or more service suppliers”. iffs vary between five and 15 per cent. There This means that the Thai-Australia free trade are schedules in this agreement for the reduc- agreement does not relate to services that are tion of tariffs on Thai imports, with 47 per public services. The definition of ‘public cent of total Thai import tariffs being re- services’ is very ambiguous. It is the same duced to zero immediately. The vehicle in- definition of ‘public services’ that is found in dustry tariffs will be reduced to zero by 2010 the General Agreement on Trade in Services and TCF tariffs will be reduced to zero by 2015. Both of these industries in Australia

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 23 in article 1.3. AFTINET’s submission further will be included. It will be the disputes states: panel—a process of the WTO. It is ridiculous Ambiguity arises about which services are for the government to claim, when there is a covered by this exemption because in Australia, dispute, that public services will not be in- as in many other countries, public and private cluded when the decision maker has already services are provided side by side. This includes said, prior to disputes coming up, ‘Yes, pub- education, health, water, prisons, telecommunica- lic services are included.’ tions, energy and many more. I move now to the issue of foreign in- However, in past discussion papers relating vestment. The Thais are also very concerned to GATS, the Department of Foreign Affairs about the loss of economic sovereignty by and Trade has asserted that public services Australian corporate takeovers in Thailand. will not be caught under such a definition. It Most economic sectors in Thailand currently has drawn a distinction by way of example have a maximum limit of 49.9 per cent for- between public education services and pri- eign ownership. The Thai-Australia free vate education services. However, no argu- trade agreement will mean that many sectors ment has been presented as to why these ser- will now be open to majority Australian vices should be seen as qualitatively different ownership. This includes 100 per cent Aus- within the definition used. Comments by the tralian ownership of distribution services for WTO secretariat do not offer support for the goods manufactured in Thailand, construc- Australian government’s assertion or inter- tion services and management consulting pretation; rather, they suggest a more narrow services. Other changes will allow 60 per interpretation of article 1.3. We have a cir- cent Australian ownership of major restau- cumstance where the Australian government rants or hotels, tertiary education institutions is saying, ‘Don’t worry, public services specialising in science and technology, pro- won’t be impacted.’ That is very different vided they are located outside Bangkok, cer- from what is being said by the WTO secre- tain maritime cargo services and mining op- tariat. I return to AFTINET’s submission: erations. The government has given assurances that it Thailand has given an undertaking to have does not intend that public services or govern- ment’s capacity to regulate services be dimin- further negotiations on services and invest- ished. If this is the case, public services should be ment within three years to further liberalise formally and unambiguously exempted from financial services and telecommunications trade agreements, including TAFTA. If not, the services. These issues of investment in Aus- likely resolution of this ambiguity will be through tralia and Thailand have prompted allega- rulings of Dispute Panels, deciding on challenges tions of improper process and conflict of by a government or an investor to a government’s interest by the Thai government in relation to public service arrangements. the agreement. I will expand on that now. That is the end of AFTINET’s contribution The Thai public have not been involved in by way of submission. The Australian gov- the negotiations and consultations necessary ernment asserts that public services will not for this agreement. For example, the trade be caught in definitions within these trade agreement was not translated into Thai. What agreements, but the WTO secretariat does capacity is there for the public in Thailand to not support the Australian government’s understand and be involved in consultation view. Where there is a dispute that arises, it and discussion about this trade agreement is not the Australian government that will be and the impact on the community if it has not the determiner of whether ‘public services’ even been translated into Thai? The English

CHAMBER 24 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004 version of the trade agreement was not made UNCITRAL, which is run by the United Na- public until there was a public outcry. tional Commission on International Trade. The Greens note and share the concerns of The processes are not open and transpar- non-government organisations in Thailand ent. The Greens; groups such as AFTINET, about a potential conflict of interest involv- the Australian Fair Trade and Investment ing the Thai government. Members of the Network; other civil society groups; and, Thai cabinet are involved in the automotive indeed, the Labor Party on occasions have industry and the Thai Prime Minister’s tele- opposed this investor-state disputes mecha- communications company is a dominant nism as it gives corporations unreasonable player in the marketplace. Both these indus- legal powers to challenge government law tries stand to gain from the free trade agree- and government policy. Thailand is a poor ment and investors in them stand to benefit, country, with agriculture the key to its econ- whilst poor Thai farmers will struggle to sur- omy and much of its population living in vive against an onslaught of Australian farm rural parts of the country. There are huge export products. Thai groups are very con- human rights issues in Thailand, with the cerned about the precedent the agreement recent killing by suffocation of over 80 peo- sets for negotiations of further trade agree- ple by the Thai security forces in southern ments—in particular, any free trade agree- Thailand being only the most recent exam- ment they may negotiate with the United ple. Thai society is in the midst of quite in- States and regional agreements, such as the tense civil conflict, and issues such as this proposed ASEAN FTA, which Thailand need to be taken into account when pushing would be a party to. These Thai groups are agreements such as these onto our worried, as the Greens are, that the agree- neighbours. Unlike those of countries like ment does not make reference to labour or Canada, the Australian government do not environmental standards, and I note this is take into account the development needs and the subject of concern in the Labor Party’s the goals of countries we are making deals second reading amendment which has been with; they seek only to see what is good for moved. certain sections of the Australian business The Greens’ view is that trade agreements market. should not undermine labour or environ- This deal is not fair. This deal is not bal- mental standards and governments should anced. It will not contribute to the economic abide by UN and ILO—International Labour security of Thailand and therefore will not Organisation—agreements on labour and contribute to security for Australia. The environmental standards. I will touch on that Greens are opposing this legislation, because issue later when dealing with Labor’s what this free trade agreement does to the amendment. There is also serious concern people of Thailand is very similar to what the about the investor state disputes mechanism Australian government agreed and allowed that exists in this trade agreement, which was the US to do to us in the form of the US- not a part of the US free trade agreement in Australia free trade agreement. There were the same form. The investor state disputes unbalanced negotiations, where the country process, which is in this agreement, gives with the greatest economic power and the corporations the right to complain to a trade greatest negotiating power had the capacity tribunal and to seek damages if their invest- to force upon the smaller country involved in ments are harmed by government law or pol- that agreement a whole range of require- icy. The trade tribunal to be used is ments to suit the profit margins of the com-

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 25 panies based in the larger country. In the case be dealt with through these trade agreement of the US-Australia free trade agreement, it processes—are being made. We can deal is the US corporations; in the case of the with the issues of global inequity only when Thai-Australia free trade agreement, it is we do so in a multilateral forum with respect Australian companies. That is not an equita- for international standards on labour, human ble way to engage in negotiating such trade rights and the environment. Whilst we con- agreements. tinue to agree to these bilateral trade agree- In conclusion I want to deal with the op- ments, we are not improving the plight of position’s second reading amendment. The disadvantaged peoples in communities all Greens will be supporting it. We have heard across the world. Whether it be with respect a number of speeches now from the opposi- to the Thai farmers, who have been demon- tion, and this debate is reminding me of the strating and who have been out on the streets debate on the US-Australia free trade agree- opposing this free trade agreement, or to the ment. Criticisms were put forward, concerns women who are working on community pro- were raised yet there was an intention to vote jects in India—wherever it may be that we for the trade agreement anyway. There is the are negotiating trade agreements—we are not same circumstance here. We have heard being responsible global citizens. We are not Senator Lundy and Senator Conroy talk ex- being citizens who are committed to improv- tensively about their concerns—that is, about ing poverty and global inequity whilst we the fact that environmental standards are not continually sign off on these uneven, un- part of this agreement and were never a part equal, unbalanced and inequitable free trade of the process and about the labour standards agreements. that do not exist in this trade agreement but I will foreshadow at this point that the that they would like to see there. That is Greens will also move a second reading great; we agree. The Greens agree, and we amendment. I note that Senator Conroy’s are not going to support free trade agree- amendment has been moved. The Greens ments that do not have respect for interna- amendment reads: tional labour standards, that do not have as “(a) further consideration of the bills be post- part of them adherence to stringent interna- poned and the bills be made an order of the day tional environmental standards and require- for the next day of sitting after the Joint Standing ments and that do not respect international Committee on Treaties reports on the Thailand- human rights standards. We should be nego- Australia free trade agreement ... tiating free trade agreements on a multilat- It then goes on. The reason the Australian eral basis, in an open and transparent way Greens are moving this amendment is that and with respect for all of those international there is currently an inquiry—that is, a par- standards. liamentary process—being conducted by the We are seeing a pattern. As I say, this is joint standing committee. It is made up of the fourth free trade agreement that Australia senators and members of the House of Rep- is signing onto. The degree to which we are resentatives, who are looking at this free or are not the dominant economic player in trade agreement and hearing from the com- those trade agreements has varied, but we are munity. They are asking, ‘What are your setting up, being a part of and perpetuating a concerns about this trade agreement?’ The system around the world where unequal inquiry is part of a process of parliamentary agreements which have nothing to contribute accountability that exists within this parlia- to dealing with global inequity—which could ment for the purpose of consulting and in-

CHAMBER 26 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004 volving the public in the discussion about the tion’s contribution to the debate on the Cus- decisions that government is making. Yester- toms Amendment (Thailand-Australia Free day we saw both of the major parties say: Trade Agreement Implementation) Bill 2004 ‘Oh, that’s all right. We’ll just continue with and the Customs Tariff Amendment (Thai- this debate.’ That is why we are debating this land-Australia Free Trade Agreement Im- issue now. We had debate yesterday on plementation) Bill 2004. These two bills are whether or not we should proceed. Both of a further step in the undermining of the ser- the major parties, the coalition and the Labor vices that are provided within Australia by Party, decided that, even though there is a the Australian government. I will explain and committee inquiry—that is, a parliamentary clarify that statement not only for the school process of accountability, scrutiny and in- children that are witnessing this debate but volvement of the public—going on, we shall also for the people around Ballarat in Victo- proceed with this debate anyway. So here we ria, where there are a substantial number of are today proceeding with the debate regard- workers whose jobs will be put in jeopardy less. by the US-Australia free trade agreement. The Greens’ second reading amendment, The entering into this agreement between which I shall move after we deal with Sena- Australia and Thailand will have an even tor Conroy’s amendment, says: ‘Let’s wait. greater impact, not only on those workers but Let’s hold our horses. Let’s at the very least also on workers in South Australia who work wait until we hear what that committee has within our motor industry and on workers in to say about the trade agreement.’ We know Queensland who are currently providing from past examples that, even if we did, it some of those government services. would not mean that the government would For those people who are listening today listen to the concerns that were raised by the to have an understanding of the issues we Joint Standing Committee on Treaties. But need to go right back to where this process of let us at least wait until the committee pro- trade agreements began, whether they are vides its report to the parliament so that we multilateral or bilateral. The history goes can hear what the views of the public and the back to 1975, when Australia entered into the parliamentarians who have looked at this Lima declaration. It is interesting to note that issue are. I have heard the Labor Party raise that declaration is not even a document that this issue during their contributions and I is signed by countries. It is a declaration by hope I can look forward to their support. Be- countries to enter into and honour certain ing here having this debate and the Labor commitments. So what was Australia’s Party having said, ‘Oh, no worries; we’ll commitment? Australia’s commitment in support it anyway,’ is really ringing those signing the Lima agreement was to transfer bells about the US free trade agreement. The our manufacturing base to the Third World Greens are not going to support these inequi- countries to lift those countries and their table trade agreements. We are going to work people out of their abject poverty. I use the with the other greens parties in over 80 dif- words ‘abject poverty’ because it is poverty ferent countries around the world for multi- of the gravest concern. lateral trade agreements which respect inter- If we go back to 1975 and look at the con- national standards with respect to labour law, ditions in those Third World countries, we human rights and the environment. see that people in Thailand were living on Senator HARRIS (Queensland) (11.07 something like US75c per day while at the a.m.)—I rise to place on the record One Na- same time the poverty level in that country

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 27 was $US1.50. In other words, the average tured? Logically you would say that it is worker in Thailand in 1975 was getting half Royal Doulton and that it has come out of of the income that was required to sustain England. You would be wrong; it is made in them at the poverty level. Let us have a look Thailand. If you go and buy a German Arz- at Thailand today. A person who is working berg dinner set, you will find it is made in in the agricultural industry in Thailand to- Thailand. So if there are people out there day—say, the equivalent of one of our jacka- listening to this broadcast who think that this roos or jillaroos—receives the equivalent of is only going to affect very minimal things $US250 per year. For a comparison, let us like T-shirts and sandshoes, they are wrong. look at a person who works on a station in We are going to have all of those products Queensland. They receive approximately that are produced in Thailand brought di- $300 to $350 per week. So they receive more rectly into Australia at zero tariffs or greatly per week than a person working in an agri- reduced. cultural industry in Thailand earns in a year. The difference between this particular free In 1975 we made the commitment to trade agreement and the Australia-United move our secondary industry, our manufac- States agreement lies within the heart of the turing industry, into the Third World to lift difference in our economic status. In Amer- them out of their abject poverty. The tragedy ica, to a large extent their wage structure is is that the majority of people in Thailand are equal to ours or, if not, slightly better. So we still living well below the poverty level. Yes, are competing with products into a market you can sit in your five-star hotel in Bangkok where their labour costs are similar to ours, and look down from your window on a Thai with the exception—and I make the excep- family eating their rice with their fingers. I tion—of the American products that are pro- am not implying that that is not their culture. duced by Maquilador labour, and I raised I am implying that they are in as much pov- that issue in the US free trade agreement. But erty in 2004 as they were in 1975. the entire country of Thailand has the If people think that more jobs will be equivalent of Maquilador labour on the transferred into Australia as a result of this Mexican border in America. They do not free trade agreement, then I would suggest have to shift their product as they have to out that they have a really hard look, because of America and Canada into the Maquilador what we will be doing will be exporting our area to access those wage structures of about Australian jobs to Thailand. For those people one-third of what they are within the US and listening to this broadcast who have some Canada. Thailand’s structure is already there. concerns about the quality of product that is And therein lies one of the two reasons for going to come from Thailand, let me reassure this great push towards these either multilat- them that in a large number of cases the eral or bilateral treaties. The difference lies quality of the product that comes out of Thai- in having an export-import process that pro- land is equal, or even superior, to some other vides obscene profits—and I use the word places in the world. I will give you a really ‘obscene’ purposely. You have to have this intriguing example. I ask any Australian who great disparity in the wage structure of the has recently walked into Myer, DJs or who- two countries. ever their local service providers are and Let us look at Thailand, and I am now go- rocked up to the fine bone china counter and ing to go back probably 15 years to the time had a look at a Royal Doulton dinner set: that Lacoste T-shirts were available in Aus- where do you believe that item was manufac- tralia. I saw them for sale in the Pier shop-

CHAMBER 28 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004 ping centre of Cairns, which is right at the Senator HARRIS—Yes, it is import and top of Queensland where I live. The shirts export. We are importing Thai workers and were imported from Thailand. The company we are exporting our Australian Qantas that imported them purchased them in Thai- workers’ jobs. Why is the government em- land for less than $A4, and the shirts retailed barking on this process? It is simple econom- in Cairns for $A60—a $56 mark-up. And ics and it is quite easy to explain for anyone there lies another fallacy of free trade agree- who is interested in listening: the process is ments. The government will tell you—and to more focused on the provision of govern- some extent the Labor Party will support it— ment services. Australia’s budget for 2005- that free trade brings us cheaper goods, but 2006 is approximately $800 billion—that is nothing could be further from the truth. What $800,000 million—of which roughly 50 per is actually happening is that we are moving cent is attributed to services that govern- our manufacturing base into these Third ments currently provide. Therein lies the an- World countries under this touchy-feely, swer for what the government is doing: the lovely idea that we are lifting them out of government is moving that entire $400 bil- poverty, and all we are doing is lifting huge lion worth of services currently supplied by amounts of money out of our pockets into government departments into the public the businesses that work on the import- arena. That movement will represent the export process. In Thailand, the T-shirt costs greatest growth area for corporations in Aus- $A4 on the street; the same T-shirt from the tralia, in the US or in Thailand. I notice there same manufacturer, sold in Australia costs is stunned silence in the chamber. $60. How can our governments and the op- Senator McGauran—They’ve stopped position look the Australian people in the listening. face and say, ‘We’re doing this to get you Senator HARRIS—Senator McGauran, cheaper products’? How can they say to the you may not be listening, but I can assure Australian people, ‘We’re moving our manu- you there are a lot of Australians out there facturing base to lift these people out of ab- who are. They are now aware of the reason ject poverty’? The two statements are abso- why the government is moving this way. lute falsehoods. They are the same corporations who will Let us look at some other issues in relation benefit from the privatisation of those gov- to the trade between Australia and Thai- ernment services. They are the same corpora- land—and this is not a trade in products. The tions, Senator McGauran, that make the po- issue I want to focus on is the trade in ser- litical donations to your party, the Liberal vices. We see on TV advertisements by Qan- Party and the Labor Party. As I said earlier tas—our Australian airline—featuring all on, there were some concerns in relation to those lovely children all around the world the US-Australia free trade agreement. Those advertising Australia. Well, ladies and gen- concerns absolutely pale into insignificance tlemen, at the same time as placing those ads when you consider the difference in eco- on your TV, Qantas is also placing Thai peo- nomic structure of the workers in Australia ple in the back of their Qantas aircraft and and Thailand. dry hauling them from Bangkok to Sydney We have government departments that where they are crewing Australian flights out have publicly advertised that Australian of Australia. companies can cut their IT costs by one-third Senator McGauran interjecting— by transferring IT functions to India. What

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 29 will be the ratio when either services or Senator Ridgeway and Senator Nettle. I products that are currently produced here in place on record that Australia believes that Australia are transferred to Thailand? My free trade agreements are one of the best guess is that it will be better than 0.1 per cent mechanisms to address these issues. Austra- of what it costs here in Australia, and that is lia is very active in international organisa- the tragedy. The Australian people need to be tions dealing with human rights. We are a aware that a gradual erosion of government world leader in relation to human rights and services is not an accident. It is a wilful in- there is nothing better you can do for people tent by both the present government and the than give them a good, strong economy so opposition, if they are ever to gain govern- that you can have the structure to provide ment, to transfer the provision of those ser- schooling, hospitals and a future for children vices into corporate entities. Those corporate in that community. entities will then get the best legislation their Senator Ridgeway mentioned that the in- money can buy when their lobbyists knock vestor-state provisions of this agreement give on the doors of the hallways of this building. corporations unreasonable legal powers to Senator ELLISON (Western Australia— challenge government law and policy. Inves- Minister for Justice and Customs) (11.27 tor-state provisions have been common law a.m.)—I thank those senators who have con- in all of the investment agreements entered tributed to the debate on the Customs into. They provide investors alternatives to Amendment (Thailand-Australia Free Trade relying on domestic courts where there is a Agreement Implementation) Bill 2004 and question about procedures in the domestic the Customs Tariff Amendment (Thailand- courts. It is common to include these provi- Australia Free Trade Agreement Implemen- sions when a developed state is concluding tation) Bill 2004. What we are talking about an agreement with a developing state. To here today is the Thailand-Australia free date, there has not been a single action trade agreement and the benefits that will brought against Australia under any of those flow from such an agreement. The Centre for 19 investment agreements or under the Sin- International Economics indicated that the gapore-Australia Free Trade Agreement. In benefits for both countries would be substan- practice, most investor-state issues are re- tial. People should remember this as the solved by diplomatic means. That is an im- background to this debate because, according portant point to remember in relation to the to that centre, there will be a $2.4 billion issue that Senator Ridgeway raised. advantage for Australia and a $6.8 billion Senator Conroy dealt with the rules of benefit for Thailand. The benefit to Thailand origin, particularly as they relate to the tex- comes as a result of the tariff structure in that tiles, clothing and footwear industry. The country. When people talk about the social rules of origin for textiles, clothing and and human rights implications, they need to footwear are consistent with the rules of ori- remember the benefits that this will bring to gin applied to imports from the least devel- the Thai people. Most importantly for Aus- oped countries. Procedures are in place to tralia, we have an economic benefit for this prevent transshipments. To qualify for pref- country. erential rates of customs duty, Thai exporters A number of issues were raised during the will need to be registered by the Thai gov- second reading debate and I will address ernment. Furthermore, at the time of impor- each in turn briefly. Social policy, human tation the Australian importer will need to rights and development issues were raised by possess a certificate of origin issued by the

CHAMBER 30 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004

Thai government. A certificate of origin is role to play. We are not ignoring or disre- required for each shipment, and we believe garding that. We have taken note of the hear- that this provides the necessary safeguards. ings and the submissions that have been Senator Nettle has moved a second read- made, but in this case it is in the national ing amendment on behalf the Greens in rela- interest to proceed as quickly as possible to tion to the consideration of this agreement by the implementation of this agreement. the Joint Standing Committee on Treaties. Of Senator Conroy touched on some issues course, the joint standing committee was relating to labour and the environment. We considering this agreement and was close to certainly do not believe that free trade finalising its consideration before the calling agreements are the best mechanism for inter- of the election. In the normal course of national labour standards. We are active as a events, we provide 20 sitting days as a period country in the International Labour Organi- of time in which the Joint Standing Commit- sation, and the government believe that that tee on Treaties deals with these sorts of in- is the best way to deal with those issues. En- ternational instruments. I understand that that vironmental issues are best dealt with by the was exceeded in this case. There were many WTO Committee on Trade and Environment, submissions to the committee which the and we are actively pursuing those aspects government have taken note of. We are not through that forum. Free trade can deliver disregarding those hearings at all, but of great benefits, and bringing environmental course there is a time imperative with this and labour considerations into the agreement agreement. Both the Australian and Thai could well delay and in fact frustrate any free governments are committed to implementing trade agreement that would see those sub- this agreement and to seeing the commercial stantial economic benefits being delivered to benefits flow to the Thai people and the Aus- both Australia and Thailand. The government tralian people as a result. Any delay to the do not support the amendments to the second implementation of this agreement will disap- reading, and we will be voting accordingly. I point Australian business and the Thai gov- commend these bills to the Senate. ernment and raise questions about our com- The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT mitment to the agreement. The joint DFAT (Senator Knowles)—The question is that and Austrade seminars on this agreement the second reading amendment moved by across Australia in July this year found wide- Senator Conroy be agreed to. spread support for this agreement. Question agreed to. I refer again to the substantial economic Senator NETTLE (New South Wales) benefits that will flow through to the people (11.35 a.m.)—On behalf of the Australian of both Thailand and Australia. Therefore, Greens, I move the second reading amend- we believe that to delay this agreement ment standing in my name: would be detrimental to both Australia’s and Thailand’s interests. We certainly acknowl- Omit all words after “That”, substitute: edge the work that the Joint Standing Com- (a) further consideration of the bills be mittee on Treaties has done, but we cannot postponed and the bills be made an or- delay in this instance, and I believe there is a der of the day for the next day of sitting after the Joint Standing Committee on precedent in relation to the Singapore- Treaties reports on the Thailand- Australia Free Trade Agreement where we Australia Free Trade Agreement; and did the same thing. The Joint Standing Committee on Treaties has a very important

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 31

(b) senators who have spoken to the motion Bills read a second time. “That these bills be now read a second Third Reading time” may speak again to that motion for up to 20 minutes each when debate Bills passed through their remaining on the bills resumes. stages without amendment or debate. Question put. GOVERNOR-GENERAL’S SPEECH The Senate divided. [11.39 a.m.] Address-in-Reply (The President—Senator the Hon. Paul Debate resumed from 17 November, on Calvert) motion by Senator Knowles: Ayes………… 10 That the following address–in–reply be agreed Noes………… 46 to: To His Excellency the Governor-General Majority……… 36 MAY IT PLEASE YOUR EXCELLENCY— AYES We, the Senate of the Commonwealth of Aus- Allison, L.F. * Bartlett, A.J.J. tralia in Parliament assembled, desire to express Brown, B.J. Cherry, J.C. our loyalty to our Most Gracious Sovereign and Greig, B. Harris, L. to thank Your Excellency for the speech which Murphy, S.M. Murray, A.J.M. you have been pleased to address to Parliament. Nettle, K. Ridgeway, A.D. upon which Senator Bartlett had moved by NOES way of an amendment: Barnett, G. Bishop, T.M. That the following words be added to the ad- Boswell, R.L.D. Brandis, G.H. dress-in-reply: Buckland, G. Calvert, P.H. Campbell, G. Carr, K.J. “, but the Senate is of the opinion that: Chapman, H.G.P. Colbeck, R. (a) Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second Collins, J.M.A. Crossin, P.M. is to be commended for her reported pub- Denman, K.J. Eggleston, A. lic support for implementation of the Ellison, C.M. Faulkner, J.P. Kyoto Protocol; and Ferguson, A.B. Ferris, J.M. (b) the Government’s failure to ratify the Fifield, M.P. Forshaw, M.G. Kyoto Protocol, to take strong action to Heffernan, W. Hogg, J.J. reduce Australia’s greenhouse emissions Humphries, G. Hutchins, S.P. and to urge the United States of America Johnston, D. Knowles, S.C. Ludwig, J.W. Lundy, K.A. to do likewise, is putting at risk interna- Macdonald, J.A.L. Mackay, S.M. tional efforts on climate change” Marshall, G. Mason, B.J. Senator MARK BISHOP (Western Aus- McGauran, J.J.J. * Moore, C. tralia) (11.45 a.m.)—I am pleased to speak O’Brien, K.W.K. Patterson, K.C. on the address-in-reply today, and I will do Payne, M.A. Ray, R.F. so with particular reference to the welfare Santoro, S. Scullion, N.G. Stephens, U. Tchen, T. and recognition of Australia’s veterans. This Troeth, J.M. Watson, J.O.W. is a responsibility I carry on behalf of the Webber, R. Wong, P. Australian Labor Party in this chamber. It * denotes teller might be observed from the outset that veter- Question negatived. ans affairs retains a very symbolic place in Original question, as amended, agreed to. our democracy. Indeed, the opening of the Question agreed to.

CHAMBER 32 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004

41st Parliament by His Excellency the Gov- just observed Remembrance Day. This, along ernor-General is indicative. with Anzac Day, is now embedded in our Firstly, His Excellency is a retired a major national psyche. They are days on which we general, having served Australia with distinc- remember both the horror and the waste of tion. He is by definition a veteran. Secondly, war. They are also times to mourn the loss of as a symbol of the importance of veterans in so many young men and women. our democracy, this parliament is directly Labor make the point that it is now appro- linked. When one observed across the head priate that we also recognise the defence of of the ceremonial guard assembled in front Australia in World War II, which com- of the building on Tuesday, the parliament menced in 1942. We believe that we should looked directly across the central land access also commemorate the Battle for Australia; to our capital, Canberra, to the sombre pres- hence our suggestion that the first Wednes- ence of the Australian War Memorial. The day in September each year be so dedicated. two buildings, flanked by the High Court and These days of commemoration, albeit from the National Library, form two key reference World War I, are stark reminders that of the points. This is appropriate and illustrates the 332,000 who went to fight in that European importance of not just national defence but war in 1914-18, 61,000 were killed and of the service of Australians throughout our those 23,300 were never found. They remain history. interred beneath the soil of other nations. When considering veterans affairs we That marks the origins of our repatriation should and must remember that symbolism. system. It is something that we should al- It is not there by accident; it is part of our ways remember, as veterans often remind us. national ethos. It is there because, when all They rightly remind us of that when we seek else fails, our independence as a nation, our to glorify their deeds. national welfare and our personal safety rest All Prime Ministers, whether cynically in the hands of the military. This is not sim- seeking their own limelight or not, always ply a platitude or a cliche. Overall, Austra- promise to look after those who sail from our lians young and old hold this ethos, this di- shores to do their duty. We do not resile from rection, and it is gaining strength. It is gain- that commitment. Indeed, we honour it with- ing strength not because of the decisions of out question. But we do deplore the cynical governments that see our young men and exploitation and glorification of that com- women sent overseas but because of the hu- mitment for political outcomes. Veterans do man commitment on their part to do their too. It is therefore little wonder that emotions duty. run high on veterans matters as pressure is We on this side respect that and, whatever brought to improve the benefits of veterans. the merits of the need for war, we will al- The assertion that our system is overly ways support absolutely and without ques- generous is frequently challenged. Nowhere tion the commitment and risks taken in hon- is that question asked more frequently than ouring those decisions. Commensurate with by our World War II veterans and widows as that commitment, we as Australians have they compare the rewards for their service always respected the obligation to care for with those available to the modern ADF. our veterans. This began with World War I, They recall accepting only what the nation which saw so much horror and in which Aus- could afford. They observed vocally during tralia suffered catastrophic losses. We have the recent election campaign the largesse

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 33 extended by the Howard government in what the last three years, under the previous min- was such a blatant vote buying exercise. Put ister, we saw serial incompetence. For veter- bluntly, the plea was simply: ‘If there is so ans, much of this is obscure. The pity is that, much revenue pouring into the Treasury cof- instead of providing simplicity to an overly fers, why is it so hard to survive on the pen- complex system, the Howard government sion? Why have programs of support to those introduced inconsistency and contradiction. in need been cut back?’ There is simply no All of this could have been avoided with answer to that question. good policy. There is a huge gulf between the rhetoric Let me cite some examples. The process of commemoration and the realities of of the Clarke report was a classic. This was budget outlays. However, it must be said that an inquiry designed to provide answers to a in budget terms veterans have collectively minister and a government who either had no done better in recent years. As critical as we clue or simply wanted to stall the veterans may be of individual policies and their ad- debate. As we know, the latter tactic suc- ministration, the budget for veterans affairs ceeded but eventually backfired. The rec- has grown enormously. It is only natural that ommendations of Clarke were largely ig- the government seek credit for this, though it nored, despite a backbench revolt, and the must be said again that a significant propor- report has now been consigned to history— tion of this growth has resulted from cost just like the reports of Justice Toose, Profes- increases and indexation. sor Baume and Justice Mohr. Then we had To this it must be added that the veteran the continuing stalling of, and cuts to, the population is now declining dramatically. Veterans Home Care program. This is an The figures show that almost 9,000 World excellent program which is, like HACC, de- War II veterans are dying each year. There signed to keep ageing veterans and widows are now only four survivors from World War in their own home and out of institutional I. Almost 73 per cent of veteran pensioners care. This program saves money; it does not are now over 75 year of age. The cost of in- cost. Yet for three years services were cut, come support might decline but, as we know, waiting lists grew and the purpose of the with age comes increasing frailty. Aged care program was defeated. But—lo and be- and health care are now the top priority, hold!—on election eve, the promise to re- which is showing in budget outlays. The task store funding was made, just in the nick of therefore is not diminished. time. For our part, on this side of politics, we Next, veterans endured the saga of the accept those priorities and we support them. gold card, for which another last-minute However, having said all of that, the system election promise was made. Without this of support and care for our veterans is not promise to increase GPs’ rates to 115 per without its blemishes. May I make it plain cent of the scheduled fee, it must be said that that, despite those faults, we in the Labor the gold card was rapidly being subsumed by Party have never failed to support govern- Medicare. We now await the government’s ment initiatives where additional benefits are action to make it happen. For medical spe- given. The difference is simply in the means, cialists, however, the drama remains. Veter- the processes and the policies by which they ans are increasingly unable to use their gold are provided. The Howard government has card for specialists, and there is no sign of regrettably scored a D on the latter. During this abating. In fact, we know that in Tasma- nia the problem is so chronic that people are

CHAMBER 34 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004 being flown regularly to the mainland for cited a few examples. There are others, rang- treatment. Yet there is no sign of either re- ing from potential and threatened cutbacks to morse or remedial action. Veterans are being aids and appliances, including prostheses, to let down. failure to properly deal with those exposed to There is more. In the last parliament the hazardous chemicals in particular. This in- Howard government legislated to exempt cludes RAAF ground staff involved with the veterans disability pension from the means de-seal and reseal of F111 fuel tanks over the test at Centrelink. Instead of simply amend- last 30 years. Our criticism also includes the ing section 8 of the Social Security Act, it expenditure of $6 million per year by MCRS chose instead to pay an allowance from the on obtaining legal advice for the considera- Department of Veterans’ Affairs. This is tion of both primary claims and reconsidera- called the Defence Forces Income Support tions. Ex-service people without financial Allowance, DFISA. By this means, the de- means naturally find they are considerably duction made from Centrelink pensions re- disadvantaged. Failure to properly investi- sulting from the treatment of disability pen- gate and prosecute fraud remains a continu- sion as income is now refunded. This is ex- ing concern. All we ask for on behalf of vet- traordinarily messy and unnecessary. No erans is clarity and consistency. Adhocery of doubt it results from a stand-off between the kind we saw in the last parliament should portfolios which has not been capable of be replaced by careful and considered policy. resolution, even by the Prime Minister. The To that end it is useful to observe that the outcome does not change for veterans; it is government in fact has no serious policy just more complex. It is also expensive ad- proposals on its fourth term agenda for vet- ministratively, with some $18 million being erans. Essentially the government’s election wasted on unnecessary process. policy comprised expensive bandaids for the We have also made the point about past home care program and for the gold card. policy failings where the Howard govern- These attend to self-inflicted shortcomings ment seems to have been hell-bent on de- flowing from previous decisions made over stroying the traditional distinction in our vet- the last three years. Apart from a minor erans law in favour of qualifying service. change to bereavement payments for TPI This is a distinction made in terms of both widows, there are no policy initiatives at all. processes and levels of benefits provided to In fact, the entire emphasis of the govern- those who embark on warlike service in par- ment’s future intent is focused far more on ticular. Departmental officials in fact confess commemorations. That in fact was the only that this was the singular motive in effec- reference in the Governor-General’s address. tively removing all the special rate from the Let it be said at the outset that on this side means test at Centrelink. It was also a sig- we support this focus on commemorative nificant point of contention during the con- activity. Commemoration of veterans deeds sultations on the new Military Rehabilitation is an intrinsic part of our culture. We are all and Compensation Act. Veterans still see this earnestly and seriously committed to re- as the thin end of the wedge and as a diminu- membering the past deeds of our veterans. tion of their status. We value our country and we are committed Over the last three years we have been to its defence. But this has to be genuine; it very critical of the government’s perform- cannot be contrived. It is not a public rela- ance on veterans affairs. Today I have only tions stunt. It should be serious, good public policy. To know and understand the conse-

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 35 quences of war is to understand our reluc- I conclude where I began. We should al- tance to engage in it. It should be the last ways in this parliament remain aware of our resort, not the first. It comes at a horrible obligations to veterans. We should not forget cost in human lives—and invariably they the axis which binds this parliament with the will be the lives of family and friends. That remembrance of our losses in war. We must is what we commemorate. We commemorate continue to honour the commitments repeat- their service, their duty, their courage and edly made in this place by leaders of succes- their sacrifice. sive governments. At the same time we hope It is not enough to stop there, as it seems that administratively and in terms of policy the government is now about to do. There are we can introduce a more worthwhile out- many outstanding and remaining problems in come following a more professional ap- the veteran community. Not the least of these proach. Veterans are entitled to be treated is concern for the intergenerational effects of fairly and consistently and it is regrettable service upon the health of children. I remind that in recent years this has not been the the Senate that in the last election Labor pro- case. posed to undertake a full health study of vet- Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western erans’ children. The government mimicked Australia—Minister for the Environment and this in a token way, promising merely a fea- Heritage) (12.02 p.m.)—It is a true pleasure sibility study of a study. Similarly, we ad- to be speaking on the address-in-reply. When dressed other needs of children, particularly I heard you open the debate, Madam Acting for those in need of education and the added Deputy President Knowles, you said it had opportunity that provides, through a new been some time since you had spoken on program of bursaries. We also addressed one. Not only is it a privilege to speak on an other needs, such as widows denied access to address-in-reply to a speech delivered by the the income support supplement who continue Governor-General but also it is a true honour to suffer discrimination. The current policy is to speak in a debate on which you have neither fair nor adequate. opened the batting, so to speak. It is well Labor proposed a range of more minor known in the Senate that you will be retiring changes, including more assistance to the at midnight—Western Standard Time, I estates of those who die without means, by would hope—on 30 June 2005 and it is en- extending bereavement payments. We pro- tirely appropriate that you opened with a posed the full funding of a memorial to most eloquent contribution to this debate. peacekeepers, not just a contribution as Senator Ellison—Hear, hear! promised by the government. Labor prom- Senator IAN CAMPBELL—I wish to ised a $150,000 contribution to the Ballarat make a contribution in relation to the amend- City Council towards the upkeep of the pris- ment moved to your motion by Senator Bart- oners of war memorial in that town. It should lett, which relates to the government’s per- be noted here though that the Treasurer is on formance in relation to Kyoto. The govern- record as doubling that promise. We are ment has had a world-leading policy on is- happy to have been outbid, however we trust sues relating to climate change. It is very that that was a core promise. Sadly those important that all Australians understand that initiatives are now lost, though we do hope the government’s record of action on climate that the government might graciously accept change stands in stark contrast to other po- our suggestions. litical parties such as the Greens, the Austra-

CHAMBER 36 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004 lian Labor Party and the Democrats who tend protocol and having the debate focus on that to have a one-line policy on climate one issue—whether or not you tick it— change—that is, to squawk like a well- creates a huge moral hazard for our nation trained parrot that we should ratify the Kyoto because it means that people think that you protocol. They tend to get away with it with can solve the problem by ratifying this pro- much of the Australian media who tend to tocol. The protocol—and all experts agree on think that the only way Australia can address this; the Prime Minister of Great Britain climate change in this world is to have the agrees on this—will deliver about a one per government ratify this protocol. People need cent reduction in global greenhouse gas to understand that the Kyoto protocol is an emissions and what is required is a 50 to 60 important agreement. The Kyoto conference, per cent reduction. What is required is a at which Senator Robert Hill, the then Minis- steadfast focus by governments, industry and ter for the Environment, represented Austra- the community on how we move to a new lia, was very important. It has achieved an global paradigm, how we move to a whole enormous amount, focusing the governments set of new energy paradigms, how we move of the world, industry and the community on the transport sector, the stationary energy the enormous challenge of climate change. production sector, the household sector, Unfortunately—and it is well recognised heavy industry and industry across the world by nations which have ratified the protocol to a carbon constrained future. and by others which have not, such as Aus- How do we ensure that we have expand- tralia—the Kyoto protocol by itself simply ing living standards? How do we ensure that will not be sufficient to address climate we have the increasing energy needs of the change. There is, I accept, a consensus world met yet put less greenhouse gases into among expert scientists who say that to ame- the atmosphere? Therein lies the challenge. liorate climate change—to stop global tem- That challenge is not solved by people who peratures increasing and impacts such as in- do not put the hard work, the energy or the creased storm intensities, melting of the po- policy work into this but just say, ‘Let’s just lar icecaps, more cyclones, the impacts on ratify this protocol.’ If you ratify the proto- biodiversity, on forests and on flora and col, you get a one per cent reduction and the fauna around the globe and on agriculture— climate keeps changing, agriculture goes out reductions of greenhouse gas emissions into backwards and the icecaps keep melting but the atmosphere of around 50 to 60 per cent the Australian Democrats, the Greens and the are needed. That is very much the consensus, Australian Labor Party would feel that they which I accept. Regardless of whether or not have salved their leafy suburbs guilt over you accept that consensus, it is important climate change. that we all understand that climate change is There is a huge dilemma. I want to see— now not something that can be left open to and the Governor-General mentioned this in debate. It has occurred and is occurring and, his address—us address these key environ- as a government, we accept that it will con- mental issues in a way that ensures that Aus- tinue to occur and that there is an enormous tralians in particular but also people around responsibility on governments to do some- the world can aspire to better living stan- thing about it. dards. I have absolutely no doubt—and Aus- I say to the Australian Democrats, who tralia has proved it—that you can have an have moved an amendment to the address-in- expanding economy, that you can have a reply motion, that simply ratifying the Kyoto world-leading energy sector, that you can

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 37 have increasing numbers of industries in current estimates of economic growth. Based Australia attracted from other parts of the on the sort of growth that we have been get- world and that you can achieve good green- ting over the last five years and based on the house outcomes. You can have an expansion forward estimates of the midyear economic of the economy with a reduced environ- review and I think the pre-election economic mental footprint. Why am I so confident review, Australia is on track to double the about that? I am confident because Australia size of its economy from 1990 to 2011. We is already achieving it. are also on track as we speak to achieve our One of the things that frustrate me enor- 108 per cent target. We hope in the next few mously is that, for all of the great achieve- days through the Australian Greenhouse Of- ments of governments around Australia, in- fice to release greenhouse figures on where cluding state governments and many local we are at. governments, in terms of reducing green- So we have virtually doubled the size of house gases in industry in particular, we con- the Australian economy, massively increased tinue to have people who pour scorn on their the number of jobs, increased the number of countrymen who are working so hard to exports, increased the size of our industries achieve these important environmental out- and yet virtually contained our greenhouse comes by saying that we have failed some- gas emissions to what they were back in how because we have not signed this proto- 1990. There will be an eight per cent in- col, we have not ratified this protocol. They crease—so the target figure will be 108 per make Australians feel bad about themselves cent based on 1990—in a period where we when in fact we are in the top three or four will have doubled the size of the Australian countries in terms of performance on reduc- economy. That is a fantastic achievement ing greenhouse gas emissions. We will be that people like the Australian Democrats one of the few nations of the world that will should welcome. What a great achievement meet their Kyoto target by domestic action. not only to have economic expansion, more Some countries will meet their target through jobs, higher productivity, better living stan- emissions trading and other offsets. We are dards, better health outcomes and better edu- on track to meet the target that was agreed to cation outcomes but also to have constrained at Kyoto by the Australian government and our environmental footprint and constrained negotiated by Robert Hill. I will put that into our greenhouse gas footprint. It is a great context. achievement. I remind honourable senators that Kyoto During the election, contrary to the im- asks nations to commit to a greenhouse gas pression that you would get from reading emissions target based on the 1990 base year, Senator Andrew Bartlett’s amendment, the that Australia’s agreed emissions target is Liberal-National Party coalition put forward 108 per cent of 1990 emissions and that the a series of new, practical, sensible, achiev- target period is between 2008 and 2012. In able and very expensive measures to address about 2011 the Australian economy will be a greenhouse gas emissions. What did we get $1,000 billion economy. My Treasury friends from the Democrats? ‘We would ratify tell me that is a $1 trillion economy—I will Kyoto.’ What did we get from the Labor have to check whether that is right. In 1990 Party? ‘We would ratify Kyoto.’ There are no we were a $500 billion economy. In that practical measures and no plans as to how Kyoto period the Australian economy will go they would reach their targets or how they from $500 billion to $1,000 billion, based on would take Australia past 2012. There is just

CHAMBER 38 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004 this one-line policy. It was a bit like their ated by renewable energy. There is substan- policy on rivers. They said that they would tial investment in renewable energy. There is find some extra gigalitres to put into the the world-leading mandatory renewable en- Murray. They did not say where they were ergy target to ensure that we move invest- going to get them from and how much that ment towards renewable energies. There is was going to cost. They had a policy for one the historic $75 million solar cities program, river whereas the coalition had a policy for which will see us build, first in Adelaide and 1,750 projects on rivers right around Austra- subsequently in up to three other locations lia. around Australia, world-leading demonstra- In relation to Kyoto, the government’s tions of solar cities using solar energy to re- policy was firmly focused on how we place fossil fuel energy, solar passive hous- achieve what needs to be achieved on cli- ing design and a range of other solar tech- mate change. We need this 50 to 60 per cent nology to create a world-leading technologi- reduction sometime during this century to cal edge in using renewable fuels to power ensure that climate change is addressed as an entire suburbs, tertiary institutions, technical issue. As I said, the reality of climate change colleges and industry. That is one of the ex- is now not something that can be debated. It citing programs. has occurred. We have had global warming. Furthermore, we recognise that it is very We have had climate change. The extent of important to engage with all the other na- the Antarctic ice has diminished by around tions, both Kyoto protocol ratifying nations 20 to 25 per cent already in the last 50 years. and those which have not ratified, to ensure In my home state of Western Australia, the that we get a comprehensive outcome in rainfall has reduced over the past 50 years by what we have called the ‘beyond Kyoto’ sce- around 20 to 25 per cent. That is a fact for nario. The Kyoto protocol aims at outcomes the farmers in Western Australia. The rainfall between 2008 and 2012; the reality is that we has reduced and you cannot argue about it. have to achieve this 50 to 60 per cent reduc- The climate is changing. It is a reality. tion in about 50 years time. What we do post The Larsen B iceshelf, which had been a the Kyoto target period is vital to the future feature on the Ross Sea in Antarctica for of Australia. It is vital to Australian jobs, to 10,000 years, recently broke off into the the Australian economy, to the agricultural ocean. The impacts of climate change are a sector and, most importantly, to saving our reality. The Kyoto protocol does not address very rare flora and fauna. We saw stories in it in a way that is substantial enough to the papers this morning about a very unique achieve an attack on climate change and yet tree frog in the Daintree in the wet tropics Labor and the Democrats say, ‘Let’s sign the region of North Queensland that has been Kyoto protocol.’ The coalition, you would be confined to a very, very small part of this proud to know, Madam Acting Deputy Presi- planet. If temperatures rise by another degree dent Knowles, has a range of policies to or so then this tree frog, for example, will make a substantial difference in Australia have no habitat left. The case of that frog and around the world. There is about $1.7 gives an example of what can happen to billion of domestic investment in our climate habitats around Australia. change strategy, including $700 million un- In the interests of Australia’s economy, der our new energy white paper. There are jobs, environment and incredibly unique investments in alternative fuels, low emis- biodiversity we have to address climate sion technology and storage of energy cre- change and we have to ensure that there is a

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 39 comprehensive international agreement. We agreement to address the greenhouse gas have to ensure that the United States of emissions of the whole world—not just a America is part of an agreement. We have to part of it—and match that with a frank as- ensure that the developing countries are part sessment of how we ensure that we get of an agreement and that they do not feel enough development in the developing world threatened by the need to constrain their en- to ensure that starvation and poverty are re- ergy and industrial output or feel constrained duced then we are not going to achieve what in unfair ways about their carbon emissions. this generation can achieve. We have to address the fact that we have a That is why the coalition set down a series couple of major challenges confronting the of international engagements: a ministerial world at the moment. The leaders of the conference to be hosted by Australia next world got together at the millennium devel- year; engagement in the G8 conference opment conference and set the world some chaired by Tony Blair next year; an APEC incredibly important and noble targets in workshop to focus on practical measures relation to human development. They de- within our region; and, of course, a very pro- cided, for example, that we have to reduce active and constructive engagement at the poverty by 50 per cent and that we have to conference of the parties in Buenos Aires in reduce starvation. We have to reduce the Argentina, at which I will be representing number of people living on less than one Australia next month. That is in stark con- dollar a day by 50 per cent. We have to stop trast to the one-line policy of the Democrats the hundreds of thousands of people around and the one-line policy of Labor. It is active the world, many in sub-Saharan Africa, from engagement, it is constructive measures and dying every year of malnutrition—a condi- it is a way forward. (Time expired) tion which is caused when people do not Senator HOGG (Queensland) (12.22 have enough input into their bodies to match p.m.)—I rise in today’s address-in-reply de- their output. They slowly starve and die. bate to speak specifically about the govern- That is a condition that all of us would agree ment’s move on industrial relations reforms, needs to be eradicated. We need development as a result of their re-election to office. None to achieve the reduction in malnutrition, of what the government offered will do any- poverty and starvation in our own region, in thing to make the lot of the worker better. It sub-Saharan Africa and in other parts of the will not provide security in employment to world. many people who are desirous of it at this You do need development, you do need very moment. Security of employment, of expansion of industry and you do need a de- course, is a basic and fundamental right, in veloping world to develop more rapidly. On my view. The proposals of the government the other side of the ledger you need to en- will not in any way contribute to the dignity sure that you have less greenhouse gas emis- of the individual, and the dignity of the indi- sions. We have this phenomenal historic vidual in my view is paramount in our soci- problem to solve. And we do not do it by ety—again, a basic right. saying, ‘Let’s sign up to the Kyoto protocol,’ A raft of legislation that the government knowing full well that the protocol itself ex- will put forward in the industrial relations cludes huge sections of the world—most of area is designed to place at risk the most vul- the developing world, the United States of nerable in our community—the young, America and other major emitters. If we do women, the disabled, and particularly a not have a comprehensive international

CHAMBER 40 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004 growing group of people, older men. The employment, had no access to things—such legislative reforms that the government are as basic credit facilities, home loans and the championing will do nothing but create a like—that those who have the pleasure of permanent underclass in our society, and that enjoying a full-time job that is secure have is a sad thing indeed. access to. This person was trapped. He was I want to look at what has happened as a isolated from mainstream Australians, iso- result of the government’s industrial relations lated from those who have loftier expecta- reforms to date to see where they may well tions of having a dignified lifestyle in our be taking us in the future. During the election community. This person was trapped in a campaign, whilst out on the streets one day, a low-skilled job. There was no way in the person approached me at one of my mobile world that this person would be able to break offices and raised with me their predicament. out of the job that they were undertaking. The man, an older person, over 50, had no There were no promotion opportunities. options. He was given no choice but to ac- There is no way these sorts of people cept the conditions that were offered to him could apply for different sorts of jobs that in an AWA. He had no choice about it, no would lift them out of the insecure lifestyle option—‘take it or leave it’. Of course the that has befallen them, other than to hope option of leaving it would mean that he that at some stage there might be someone to would be unemployed. Clearly, the condi- tap them on the shoulder and say that full- tions in the AWA, whilst I did not traverse time employment would be available. This them, according to what he related to me, should not be the case, because the way in were substandard and below the basic safety which people were employed was that eve- net award conditions. The person was of- ryone was casual and that everyone was on a fered only casual employment of 30 hours day-to-day basis in terms of their employ- per week—not enough to starve on, but cer- ment, in spite of the fact that they turned up tainly not enough to live on. No offer of a five days a week for 52 weeks of the year. In full-time job was made to the person. They my view, these people have been sentenced were not given the opportunity of secure, to a quite despicable form of employment. full-time employment, only 30 hours per Of all surprises, the employer of this indi- week—not 38, which is the standard working vidual was a government department. Not week, but 30. just one individual was suffering; indeed, After having spent 12 months as a casual, numerous individuals were. This government not even the slightest hint of an offer of se- has over time, with the cooperation of a cure full-time employment was made to this number of employers in our society, created person. They were just left out on a limb— a new class of citizens who have no fairness, no holidays, no breaks, no sick leave. As a no equity and no justice in their employment. matter of fact, the person made the point to Workers in this weakened position are often me, quite clearly, that if they took time off exploited in the name of efficient govern- for any reason they ran the risk of losing ment or for corporate profits. Of course, this their job. In my view, there was no humanity government has an ideological bent in the in the way in which the person was em- industrial relations area that wants to see ployed. these people even more disadvantaged than The person was given no access to stable they currently may well be. employment and, not having access to stable

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 41

The only path this government can em- really gives a foreboding of what will be bark upon in its fourth term is to enact more around with this government’s attack on the regressive legislation which will diminish, lifestyle of workers in this country. The arti- and in some cases completely remove, the cle begins: basic rights and conditions of the ordinary SUPERMARKET trolley boys are being sued for worker out there in Australia. If you are in a thousands of dollars for damage to cars and shops protected environment, if you are strong, after their employers cut them adrift. then you are okay. But if you are vulnerable, It goes on: if you are weak, then you are subject to ex- Legal Aid Queensland and the Young Work- ploitation by the legislation that has been ers’ Advisory Service have received complaints offered by this government and rejected by that children and disabled people are being forced this chamber on so many occasions. This is to register as companies, rather than employees, the same government that have sat by and in the latest abuse of disadvantaged workers. watched corporate barons lavish bonuses I have worked in the retail industry and am upon themselves whilst in some cases their still actively involved in the retail industry companies were failing or have sat by and through my involvement in the SDA, which watched companies reward directors or their is Australia’s largest trade union, and I know CEOs with massive golden handshakes when how these people who are collecting the trol- made redundant or forced to leave their cor- leys in these major shopping centres are sub- porate empires. That does not lead to a fair ject to exploitation. We now have people and equitable society. It does not lead to a complaining that these young people—and society in which individuals have a funda- they are as young as 15 and 16 years old— mental and basic right to the respect that they and others who because of their disablement deserve as human beings. can find no other source of work in some One might ask, ‘What’s ahead?’ That is instances than collecting trolleys, are now what is frightening, and that is what I want to being cast adrift and forced into registering go over briefly in the moments that I have their own companies rather than be employ- left. Any sense of fair play seems to have ees. This is an absolute disgrace indeed, but gone out the door. What the future might it is something that will be not uncommon if look like is best summed up by an article that the ideological bent of the government takes appeared in the Sunday Mail of 14 Novem- over in the not-too-distant future. The article ber. We are not talking about something that went on to say: may happen or might happen; this is some- Both organisations have received complaints thing that is happening now and will be en- about employers offering to put young workers couraged to happen even more and in more on as contractors—leaving them personally re- diverse ways if the government’s legislation sponsible for insurance, damages and taxation— program takes hold, and it seems that that rather than offering them the protection of em- will be the case. The article was headed ployment. ‘Bum steer for trolley children’. I am going That is what this is about; it is about offering to look at a group of people who are disad- people the right to be their own mini entre- vantaged, who are in low-paid work—very preneur so that the employer can get around low-paid work, to say the least—and who are the need to provide basic terms and condi- very vulnerable to being exploited by their tions of employment. The article goes on to employers. I am going to quote several para- quote advocate Simon Cleary as saying: graphs from this article, because I think it

CHAMBER 42 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004

“It’s a difficult and dangerous job pushing trol- offers. The IR program that the government leys around car parks with cars whizzing around will push through this chamber by no later corners. than the middle of next year will take away “We would advise any young person, if they from these people, will deny these people, have a choice take any other job except this one.” what are basic, fundamental rights that they The article continues: should enjoy so that they can participate in a Mr Cleary said one boy had been told to work meaningful way in our society. for months for nothing to clear a debt for his em- It was disappointing, but not unexpected, ployer. that with its program the government is hell- I do not think this really is what the Austra- bent on proceeding down the path of making lian people want. I do not think they believe life a misery for more people in our commu- that there is equity and justice in this system. nity. Whilst many of these people are not I do not think that the Australian people un- visible in the community at this stage, they derstand the import of some of the pieces of nonetheless are out there and it does not legislation that this government will put for- mean that they do not warrant some attention ward in its fourth term—that is, pieces of from people such as ourselves on this side of legislation that will deny fundamental and politics to defend their rights, to promote basic rights to the work force in Australia. If their cause and to see that they have the op- the government were putting forward legisla- portunities that others around us have and tion that created greater security of employ- take advantage of in a very successful way ment and greater opportunities for people indeed. then I would applaud that legislation, but The government have created this notion legislation that denies people fundamental that by lessening the conditions of employ- rights, denies them their basic rights, must be ment of many people they will create more condemned indeed. The article goes on fur- employment across the board. There is noth- ther to look at one of the complaints in par- ing to substantiate that that will happen. ticular and it states: There is no precedent to show that weaken- In one complaint, a young man had been em- ing and lessening the conditions of some of ployed at a landscaping company for about 2½ the people in the work force in our commu- years when his boss told workers they had to get nity and making conditions below even the an ABN and were responsible for their own tax, very basic standards that apply in awards are equipment, WorkCover payments and superannu- going to create employment at all. All that ation. that will do is perpetuate an underclass in our This is absolutely scandalous. But this gov- society, an underclass that does not deserve ernment’s ideological bent of going down the this government. path of making people individual contrac- tors, responsible for their own insurance, Senator STOTT DESPOJA (South Aus- WorkCover, tax, superannuation and so on is tralia) (12.41 p.m.)—I rise today to address a going to leave those who are vulnerable, number of matters contained in the Gover- those who are in weakened positions, totally nor-General’s address. One of the comments isolated. It is going to leave them in a situa- he made in his speech was that the govern- tion where they will not reap any of the ment is committed to fostering a spirit of benefits that our buoyant economy and soci- enterprise in Australia. One area of scientific ety have to offer. People have an inalienable research that has the potential to not only right to take part in the benefits that society deliver new enterprises for this country but

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 43 also offer treatment for myriad diseases and intellectual property rights over stem cells conditions is stem cell research. While I ac- when they consider the establishment of a knowledge that the government has made national stem cell bank. Again, an amend- significant investment into the stem cell re- ment that I successfully moved during that search process in Australia through the Bio- debate related to whether or not Australia technology Centre of Excellence, its com- should consider—and it certainly should ex- mitment to this research is now under a amine—having a national stem cell bank. cloud and certainly needs to be questioned as I understand that the terms of reference a result of recent developments. are still being finalised, but the intent of the During the recent United Nations debate Senate was very clear on this particular mat- on whether all forms of cloning or just re- ter and I want to reinforce the importance of productive cloning should be banned it it. My amendment was agreed to by a con- seems that Australia cosponsored a draft science vote of the Senate, as noted by Sena- proposal from Costa Rica that forbids the tor Evans in his discussion of the amend- experimental use of embryonic stem cells. ment, and the minister should give greater This appears to be at odds with previous rep- weight to that second reading amendment, as resentations by Australia to the United Na- the will of the Senate was very clear— tions on this specific issue. In October 2003 arguably, more so than would perhaps nor- the Australian mission to the UN stated: mally be the case with a partisan second Australia will therefore support proposals for a reading amendment. I look forward to the convention which would ban human reproductive commencement of this review and to the cloning as soon as possible, but which leaves announcement of its final terms of reference. some flexibility concerning other forms of human The current legislation, while prohibiting cloning. therapeutic cloning, has allowed stem cell Madam Acting Deputy President Kirk, as research to progress in this country, and we you know, therapeutic cloning is currently have seen the granting of several licences. illegal in Australia, but the impending review The most recent licence was granted on of the legislation—the Research Involving 5 November to IVF Australia, who are work- Human Embryos Act and the Prohibition of ing in consultation with the diabetes trans- Human Cloning Act—will re-examine this plant unit at the Prince of Wales Hospital. I issue, among many others I am sure, next acknowledge that I have some involvement year. Therefore, it is interesting that the gov- on that board. That will be the first public ernment has supported the Costa Rican draft institution to derive new stem cell lines in its proposal, which allows no flexibility—a important research into the treatment of dia- strange decision at this time. I am hoping betes. that I can get some clarification from the While the temptation is ever thus to talk government on this specific matter. about genetic privacy in the context of this The second reading amendment that I issue, I will move on to another issue relating moved to the Research Involving Embryos to privacy and one that also was in part of Bill, which established the recent ALRC in- the Governor-General’s address to the open- vestigation into gene patenting and human ing of parliament the other day. In relation to health, also called for the reviewers to con- the matter of national security, the Governor- sider and to comment on the ALRC report. General mentioned that the government in- The report recommended that the reviewers tended to bring forward legislation to facili- also examine the issues of the exploitation of tate access to private SMS, email and voice-

CHAMBER 44 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004 mail communications without an interception What makes these databases even more warrant and establish a comprehensive sur- disturbing is the fact that voters do not have veillance regime. These measures, of course, the right of access when it comes to being represent just a small component of what I able to look at that information. They cannot consider is an unprecedented, new assault on actually look at the information that is con- the privacy rights of Australians, an assault tained about them in the databases or have which incorporates widespread surveillance, the right of correcting it. These are funda- intrusive identification measures, proposals mental privacy principles. They are what are for new data matching of personal informa- enshrined theoretically in the Privacy Act tion and the unregulated use of extensive that we have in this country, albeit the so- databases by none other than political par- called soft, or light touch, regulation that we ties. I take this opportunity, therefore, to re- have in Australia. So voters are unable to cord my ongoing frustration at the way that access information, unable to check that it is both the Labor Party and the coalition con- right and unable to correct it, and that is a tinue to violate the privacy of Australians for travesty in the context of privacy principles. their own political gain. While many voters It is almost impossible for voters to know were outraged at the receipt of a recorded what information is held about them and voicemail message from the Prime Minister whether they are able to ascertain whether or during the election campaign— not it is remotely accurate. Senator Ian Macdonald—Don’t be so We have had attempts in this place to silly. amend the Privacy Act in order to ensure that Senator STOTT DESPOJA—I am sure political parties, among others, are not ex- some appreciated it, but certainly it has empt from those provisions, and those raised incredibly dire issues of privacy rights amendments moved by me on behalf of the and the use of electoral databases. But this is Democrats have not been successful. But I only one example—it is just mere example— think it is time for us to revisit that issue in of how political parties utilise the privacy of the context of an inquiry or a debate in this voters or are able to manipulate it in the con- place, and I think that, if people are so confi- text of an election campaign or any other dent of those provisions, they should be will- campaign. Whether or not the people in this ing to justify that more fulsomely than has place want to deny it, there is now wide- taken place with regard to the Australian spread evidence that political parties do rely public. on voter databases, and those databases con- I turn now to the issue of foreign affairs tain very specific political views in relation and Australia’s international relations. The to the voting habits of individual voters. I do Governor-General emphasised the impor- not think anyone would dare deny it in this tance of sustaining our strong alliance with place. These databases provide a strong dis- the United States, which he said reflected the incentive for some voters to participate in the historical relationship between our two coun- democratic process, because every time they tries and our shared values. There is no doubt write a letter, make a phone call, send a fax, that Australia’s relationship with the US is send an email or even ring up talkback radio important and that Australians and Ameri- they know that their views can be added to cans share many values, but it is also impor- this personal file. tant to point out that in recent years the United States has pursued some policies that have been inconsistent with Australia’s inter-

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 45 national obligations and that have been ob- fits justify this cost? Perhaps it is time we jectionable to many Australians. Many took a very honest and frank look at exactly within the Australian community have had how Australia’s interests are being served by problems with some of the foreign policy this relationship. I know that the government agenda aspects of this government. For ex- has attempted to polarise this debate—you ample, Australia proudly played a leading are either for the US or you are against it— role in the establishment of the International but it is not so simple. But it is not anti- Criminal Court, the ICC, but now it is nego- American, or anti anyone else for that matter, tiating an agreement, at the request of the to carry out a candid assessment of the extent USA, to grant US citizens immunity from to which the alliance is extending or benefit- prosecution before that court. As the alleged ing Australia’s interests. In fact, it is among shooting of an unarmed Iraqi just this week, the foreign policy responsibilities of any together with earlier evidence of Iraqi pris- government to undertake such an assess- oner abuse, demonstrate, US citizens are just ment. Of course our relationship with the US as capable of committing crimes against hu- is important, but the way in which it is being manity as the citizens of any other country. nurtured by this government may actually be Why are they, or we or anyone else exempt detrimental to Australia’s interests and secu- from that? rity. A healthy relationship is one that is Meanwhile, Australians David Hicks and characterised by honesty, robust exchange Mamdouh Habib—something that you, and a bit of give-and-take, if you like, and Madam Acting Deputy President Kirk, we need to be vigilant to combat this gov- would know full well, as you have done a lot ernment’s tendency to treat Australia’s rela- of work on this issue—continue to languish tionship with the US as potentially a master- in US detention at Guantanamo Bay and will servant relationship rather than a firm and eventually be tried before a US military frank friendship. commission in a manner which, I think we One of the other issues to which I wish to can quite suitably argue, violates the most refer today is the issue of women. That was a basic principles of not only our law but in- subtitle in the Governor-General’s address to ternational law as well. It is difficult to un- us here on Tuesday. He said: derstand why our government is willing to The government is committed to providing grant immunity to US citizens who commit opportunity and choice for Australian women and heinous crimes while the US continues to will continue to build on its strong record in pro- violate the rights of two of our citizens. We moting women’s employment and participation in have to acknowledge that. Here are two peo- the work force. ple who have yet to be found guilty—and These are all commendable aims—do not get may not be—of any offence, but these two me wrong. I think they are not only laudable people are our citizens and, whether the gov- objectives but ones that we should all sign up ernment likes it or not, it has an obligation to to. However, we have to look at the facts as them. We are expected to trust America to well. In Australia today we still have a num- bring to justice not only its own citizens but ber of outstanding issues that affect women, ours too. including unequal pay rates. We have a sig- I think Australia is paying a very high nificant wage gap in this country between price—or at least it appears to be paying a men and women and that is despite their do- very high price—to safeguard its relationship ing equal work. with the US at the moment. But do the bene-

CHAMBER 46 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004

We still have one of the lowest work force net and is being relocated to the Department participation rates for women among the of Family and Community Services. A lot of OECD countries. We know that discrimina- people—not just women—have some ques- tion on the basis of pregnancy in the work- tions surrounding that unexpected decision, place has increased. We remain one of only which was not indicated during the election two OECD countries without a scheme of campaign. In fact, that decision is contrary to national or paid maternity leave. Women a quote from 1995, when then Leader of the continue to be underrepresented in senior Opposition, Mr Howard, in an address to the positions, be that in business, industry or Coalition Women’s Forum in June 1995, indeed in our decision-making bodies such confirmed: as the parliament. While I acknowledge there ... that the Office of the Status of Women will be are a record number of women in the cabinet, retained in a future Coalition Government, as part I am not going to get too excited. Three is a of the Prime Minister’s Department, and that re- big number, but it ain’t big enough and it is sponsibility will be directly a part of the existing certainly not equal representation. We know departmental arrangements. that women as single parents and mature age So what has changed? Is there a policy women face higher levels of poverty. We agenda behind this? Is it that it is more ap- know violence against women is still preva- propriately located in the context of Family lent. and Community Services? Are we losing the All of us are sobered by the most recent vital monitoring, coordinating and other pol- domestic killing only yesterday in my home icy roles that the OSW performed in the De- state of South Australia. It was a shocking partment of the Prime Minister and Cabinet attack in the Myer centre and just another of previously? Will there be a change in re- the reminders we get every week in this sourcing? Some of these issues have yet to country that violence against women is still be answered and addressed by the govern- prevalent. A recent report commissioned by ment, and I look forward to getting more the federal government says services for vic- specific responses to these issues. As you can tims of domestic violence are in a ‘tragic imagine, a number of people are very con- state and getting worse’. So there is lots and cerned. lots to be done. While I appreciate the Gov- The statement that the government will ernor-General’s comments, we have to en- continue to build on its strong record in pro- sure that these goals are met and that the moting women’s employment and participa- rhetoric is matched with government action tion in the work force is also questionable. and, of course, resources. We know that in Australia only 55.8 per cent I wish to put on record my concerns, and I of women are in work, compared to 71 per am happy for the government and certainly cent of men. We know that we have got one Senator Patterson in her capacity to perhaps of the lowest female participation rates in the outline some of the plans that the govern- OECD. We know that the OECD found re- ment has, in relation to the Office of the cently that full-time participation rates of Status of Women. As many in this place women between the ages of 25 and 54 in would know, the Prime Minister has an- Australia were 20 per cent below the OECD nounced that the Office of the Status of average. The participation rate of mothers Women is to be removed from its central role with children in preschool is 45 per cent, of monitoring and coordinating policy in the compared to 55 per cent in the UK, 61 per Department of the Prime Minister and Cabi- cent in the US and 66 per cent in Denmark.

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 47

So where are the specific policies that will general. I think moving the OSW into a dif- encourage women’s participation in the work ferent department is worrying because it force? The Governor-General certainly men- risks defining the needs of women and issues tioned initiatives to help the unemployed, of work force participation, skill shortages et those on welfare and mature age workers, cetera only within the context of the family but there were no specific measures to assist and the community and not within any other women. I ask the government to address that context. There was an Australian Democrat particular issue. amendment moved by Senator Bartlett to the The issue of work and family remains an address-in-reply motion earlier in the debate. outstanding concern for a number of Austra- I now seek leave to amend it in the new lians. I was glad to see that both the major terms as circulated in the chamber. parties had some commitments to this par- Leave granted. ticular issue in their election platforms. But I Senator STOTT DESPOJA—I move: once again put on record the fact that the That the following words be added to the ad- OECD research and other research and sur- dress-in-reply: veys demonstrate clearly that Australia has “, but the Senate is of the opinion that: some of the least family friendly policies for working mothers in the developed world. The Government’s failure to ratify the Kyoto Protocol, to take strong action to reduce Aus- Once again, I reiterate the fact that we are tralia’s greenhouse emissions and to urge the one of only two OECD countries—the other United States of America to do likewise, is of course being the United States—without a putting at risk international efforts on climate system of paid maternity leave. That means change”. two-thirds of Australia’s working women do Senator JOHNSTON (Western Australia) not have access to some form of paid leave (1.00 p.m.)—I thank you, Madam Acting on the birth of a child. That has to be some- Deputy President Kirk, for the opportunity to thing that this government seeks to ad- contribute to the address-in-reply debate be- dress—I hope in the short term. ing undertaken at the moment. I commence Evidence from countries in the OECD by congratulating those re-elected senators demonstrates that those countries that do and those new senators elected at the last provide support for working women actually federal election who will take their place in have higher fertility rates than those which the new year. I also congratulate reappointed do not. Please do not get me wrong on this: I and appointed ministers, parliamentary sec- am not suggesting that family friendly poli- retaries and of course re-elected whips. One cies necessarily lead to a fertility explosion of the clearest and most obvious areas where or that it is one way of addressing the lower the government has an undeniable mandate fertility rates that we have in Australia today, for reform is the sphere of the commercial but I do think that is a basic issue of workers’ construction industry in Australia. The need rights—the rights of women who are work- for reform of this industry was evident as far ers. It is not a benefit. It should be a work- back as 1990 when the then federal Labor place entitlement, not a welfare entitlement. workplace relations minister—and respected So, despite this data and the research, the and moderate unionist and former secretary government continues to not adequately ad- of the Western Australia Trades and Labor dress the needs and concerns of Australia’s Council—Senator Cook said of the commer- working women in particular and women in cial construction industry:

CHAMBER 48 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004

Friends, this industry is going to have to bite ernments, and the Australian public. They the bullet at last. If this country wants to be effi- have all been paying through the nose for cient and productive, everybody has to undergo these outrageous industrial practices on the reform process—and most especially an in- commercial building sites in Australia. A dustry which has such pressing and demonstrable further reason for reform has come from the need for it. CFMEU itself in the cries of its Assistant Labor was in power for six years following National Secretary, Mr John Sutton. He pub- that most accurate evaluation of the state of licly complained that he feared notorious the industry and was, through all of that Sydney underworld crime boss Tommy time, hostage to the corrupt vested interests Domican was getting a foothold inside the of the then Builders Labourers Federation, union. Mr Domican, who has been charged the Building Workers Industrial Union and and subsequently cleared of several murders more latterly the CFMEU. The result of the over a number of years, had apparently taken appalling neglect of Labor in power was the an interest in the supply to the industry of entrenchment of high costs, corrupt work scaffolding and cranes. The Sydney Morning practices and low productivity in the com- Herald reported widespread fear and intimi- mercial construction industry which we see dation within the industry in November today—a blight which every hardworking 2000, saying: Australian pays for directly or indirectly in “It’s a dirty industry,” said one source ... who either their rents or their taxes. said he had been approached to pay a bribe to a That my account of the industry is true is union official. supported by renowned economic consul- No-one spoken to by the Herald would go tancy and modeller Econtech. In 2002 Econ- public for fear of physical or financial harm. tech research revealed that an arrest of inef- “I’ve got a wife and kids” and “I like my ficiency in this industry would result in a one kneecaps the way they are” were constant re- per cent reduction in the national consumer frains. price index. That is a most significant and Further to this, in 2000 a senior CFMEU alarming fact. Further to this, such reform official was reported to have alleged that would yield an annual direct saving of $2.3 union delegates were engaged in a major billion with a GDP increase of 1.1 per cent corruption scam. The then state secretary of and a rise in labour productivity of 10 per the union, Mr Ferguson, was reported to cent. In addition to this, we currently have a have referred a number of matters to police. performance and productivity gap of 50 per The Sydney Morning Herald reported allega- cent against the performance of the commer- tions of hundreds of thousands of dollars cial construction industry in North America, being paid to one senior union official for an industry with whom we are now in com- industrial peace, with the alleged recipient petition. purchasing properties worth $721,000 during The government’s reforms will proceed the period. Unionists were alleged to have for these and other very good reasons. They pocketed cheques for sizeable sums which will proceed with the Labor Party being should have gone to contractors and subcon- dragged along kicking and screaming. La- tractors, to have demanded subscriptions of bor’s ‘stand on the hose’ mentality will be to up to $25,000 for the union picnic fund to no avail and this realisation will come as a avert stop work meetings—and so the litany relief and to the satisfaction of long-suffering goes on. builders, contractors, state and federal gov-

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 49

Further to this, and more recently, Neil tralia. Immediately following Labor’s elec- Mercer in the Sydney Morning Herald in tion to power in WA in 2001, we saw ‘no March 2003 set out how a cleaning contrac- ticket, no start’ banners on all commercial tor on Sydney’s Angel Place project—a $200 building sites in Perth. Immediately upon million 35-storey development—was bla- confirmation that the Howard government tantly extorted of more than $54,000 in pro- had been returned in the 2004 general elec- tection money. The Cole royal commission tion with an increased majority and control found that other contractors on the site had of the Senate, WA union heavyweight and been hit for a total of some $460,000 in CFMEU secretary Kevin Reynolds publicly payments based on a threat of ‘no money, no declared war on the Howard government. contract’ from the union official involved. Such is the power and professed invincibility The union official involved was subse- of this union despot! Even as I speak the quently discovered to be the owner of a CFMEU’s national executive is meeting in BMW, a Jeep Cherokee, a Harley Fat Boy, a Perth today, plotting and formulating strate- Harley XLH Custom and a Commodore VT gies to combat the federal government’s plan Executive sedan. These toys represented a to bring their industry into the 21st century. substantial increase in his stable of motor So what is the CFMEU’s modus operandi vehicles during the period by contrast to the in WA? The best lurk is a $16 per employee $1,400 green Toyota ute registered in his per week training levy imposed on construc- name in 1998. These examples are just the tion companies. This money is imposed tip of a huge iceberg, providing justification through the union EBA and yields the union as to why the Cole royal commission was somewhere between $1.5 million and $3 mil- conducted and why the government must act. lion annually. The training levy is a cash cow I might add that the ALP in this place has allegedly for the Construction Skills Training resolutely stood in the way of such reform. Centre, located in Welshpool, one of Perth’s There are just too many snouts in the trough eastern suburbs. The levy allows the and too many beneficiaries. CFMEU to employ up to eight union offi- The Labor Party’s capacity to condone cials notionally identified as ‘trainers’, each and protect the CFMEU and to resist reform with a vehicle. The general industry percep- is now legendary. Many of the matters I have tion of the Construction Skills Training Cen- referred to were raised in and were the sub- tre is that it does very little, has very few ject of a New South Wales royal commission qualified personnel and provides accredita- conducted by Roger Gyles QC which, like tion upon request with no surveillance or the Cole one, disclosed a litany of corrupt, scrutiny by any objective third party. criminal and unproductive work practices The hopelessly politicised WA Depart- and which led to the establishment of a ment of Education and Training turns a blind building industry task force in New South eye to this scam as being politically sensi- Wales in the early nineties. The task force tive. Indeed, during the recent Employment, was promptly shut down by the Carr gov- Workplace Relations and Education Refer- ernment immediately upon its coming to ences Committee inquiry into the building power in 1995. The very same thing hap- industry, a number of important revelations pened in my home state of Western Australia emerged. Firstly, the WA CFMEU secretary, when the Gallop government came to power Kevin Reynolds, had considerable difficulty in 2001, which brings me to the outrageous in answering one particular question. I asked situation in my home state of Western Aus- him whether he believed in and accepted the

CHAMBER 50 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004 rule of law. I would have thought that this the state Labor government. In July of this would have been one of the most fundamen- year he was found to have wrongfully and tal questions ever asked by an Australian illegally stopped a concrete pour on a Perth senator of a union official. It took at least 20 construction site and was formally ordered seconds for him to bring himself to finally not to enter work sites. His response was to say that he did—but it was a battle. Sec- declare that it was ‘business as usual’. Less ondly, I asked Mr Reynolds why he and his than two hours after the WA Industrial Rela- union delegates on the WA ALP’s state ex- tions Commission handed down its decision, ecutive sought to defeat and prevent the pre- McDonald entered a work site and held a selection of the ALP member for Armadale stop-work meeting to inform the members of and state minister, Ms Alannah MacTiernan. the decision—so much for contempt of court I believed this was a legitimate question as to and the rule of law. McDonald had previ- the extent of the union’s power over my ously been banned from federal work sites in state’s elected state representatives, particu- 2001 for acting improperly. He was quoted larly within the labour movement, namely in the West Australian newspaper as saying, Labor Party state members. But guess what? just after he was banned by the court: The chair of the committee, seeing where “Builders shouldn’t be having wet dreams about matters were leading to, quickly stepped in this because it hasn’t changed one thing. Nothing and overruled the question as being outside has changed for me. I will still be servicing the the terms of reference, so a senator was not members at the coal face.” permitted to explore in a Senate inquiry the Utter contempt for law—that is what the extent of control of an elected parliamentary CFMEU brings to the party. So he is back on representative in a state parliament, some- work sites in flagrant contempt of the court thing the Labor Party wants to keep from the ruling, and Labor in WA and indeed in this public. place does nothing. The state Premier, Dr This was a significant tick for union soli- Gallop, has deliberately appointed a weak darity, patronage and protection by Labor and ineffectual minister in John Kobelke to senators in this place but a mighty blow to oversee industrial relations. Kobelke is an justice and truth in disclosing the contempt apologist for union lawlessness and is kept the CFMEU has for elected members of par- on as a convenience by the faceless union liament and what happens to those MPs that heavyweights who in reality control the La- do not do the union’s bidding. Even more bor Party agenda in Western Australia. contemptuous has been the conduct of WA’s Melbourne and Perth are the leaders of CFMEU assistant secretary, Mr Joe McDon- this CFMEU commercial construction indus- ald. This official epitomises what it is to per- try anarchy. At Senate estimates this year a petuate union thuggery and standover tactics. nexus was identified between Melbourne’s His inglorious record speaks volumes for his spate of gangland murders, police corruption, and his union’s contempt for the rule of law. organised crime and building industry trade Most recently he has been responsible for unions. Dominic ‘Mick’ Gatto, who is cur- causing disruption on several Perth construc- rently in custody on remand, has been a tion projects, including the Perth to Man- prominent member of Melbourne’s commer- durah rail project, the East Perth Terrace cial construction industry. Nigel Hadgkiss is Road apartment complex, the Burswood Ho- one of Australia’s most respected and es- tel site and the Ellenbrook Shopping Centre, teemed crime fighters and is currently the all with the acquiescence and blind eye of Director of the federal government’s Build-

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 51 ing Industry Taskforce. In discussing law- officials were in their Carlton office when lessness in the building industry at estimates, every window in the building was shot out he nominated Melbourne and Perth as the by a drive-by shooting. Very soon thereafter worst cities. Director Hadgkiss further con- further shots were fired at the Swanston firmed that in his view there were clear links Street headquarters of the CFMEU, with bul- between organised crime and building and lets being fired throughout the building. construction unions in Victoria. Gatto is on The Secretary of the AMWU, Mr Doug remand for the alleged murder of a suspected Cameron, has twice in the last two years Victorian hitman, Andrew ‘Benji’ Venia men, been assaulted at his home. I put it to Mr in March this year. At or about the time of Cameron, who appeared before our commit- the killing, Gatto was apparently dining with tee, that this was not a matter of him parking associates, one of whom was Ronald Bon- his car on a neighbour’s verge or having a getti, a director of the Gatto company, Arbi- tree overhanging one of his neighbour’s trations and Mediations Pty Ltd, which ap- fences—in other words, not a domestic dis- parently settles disputation in the commercial pute—and that this was about industrial building industry. The Cole royal commis- muscle and intimidation and threats against sion investigated Gatto’s involvement with a him, because he was the secretary of consultant who had been paid $250,000 to AMWU. His response was to say, ‘I don’t negotiate with building unions. Gatto was know. I have reported it to police and I don’t later quoted in the Age as saying: want to be drawn on what the reason is.’ “Mate, I’ll join arm in arm with the union and Everybody knows what is going on and La- fight them— bor seek in this place to defend it or cover it I take it that the ‘them’ is the Cole royal up. If they had any sense of decency they commission and the government— would pass the government’s legislative all the way. The people of the union are beautiful amendments to fix up this industry. What people.” about Paddy McCrudden, a Victorian mem- I will tell the Senate a little later how beauti- ber of CEPU, who suffered severe facial and ful they really are! Bob Bottom in the Sun- other injuries and spent nine hours in the day Age said that Gatto has links to Tom emergency department of the Geelong Hos- Domican, a former branch stacker and num- pital after being viciously assaulted at a un- bers man for the ALP in New South Wales, ion strategy meeting? What about Peter Har- and to one of Perth’s Mr Bigs, John Kizon, ries, a CFMEU member, who required sev- who was a pallbearer at the funeral of eral stiches to a deep facial wound as a result Alphonse Gangitano, one of Gatto’s closest of a union related assault in Newcastle last mates who was gunned down in Melbourne, year. commencing that city’s underworld crime Lastly I bring to the attention of the Sen- war. They are all tied up in the commercial ate an act of gross hypocrisy and bastardry construction industry and all tied up and be- that has caused me great concern. The Em- ing protected by ALP parliamentarians. ployment and Workplace Relations Refer- But, more widely, this industry is pep- ences Committee inquiry received a submis- pered with union violence, often directed sion from a well-known Australian religious between officials as they fight and squabble fraternity called the Christian Fellowship over the spoils of their influence and power. Brethren. The brethren are an industrious, In Melbourne last year two building union hardworking, good-living network of build- ing contractors who have been given statu-

CHAMBER 52 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004 tory exemption from membership of both Guinea and elsewhere in the Pacific theatre. I employer and employee associations and had to check on my facts to come to the full unions based upon their Christian religious understanding of the sort of length and conscientious objection. This exemption is in breadth of the bloody mindedness of these conformity with and pursuant to the terms of people—to believe that they actually sabo- the federal government’s Industrial Relations taged our efforts of defence in our hour of Act. need. Given the professed and often shrill pre- In 2001 the Federal Court found that the disposition to human rights and ILO conven- MUA had been extorting ship owners for tions of Labor and the unions, you would years in a ships hold cleaning scam where think that a religious based contractor who ships were prevented from leaving Australian on religious and human rights grounds had ports until thousands of dollars were paid for been given statutory exemption would be work never carried out. The union was fined above union thuggery, extortion and $150,000 and a permanent injunction was standover. Not so. The evidence to our com- granted restraining them from further har- mittee was that these good people are con- assment or coercion. Accordingly, Australian stantly harassed, bullied, coerced and victim- ports had one of the poorest comparative ised by CFMEU hard cases. These are men international performance levels in terms of who knowingly understand the exemption ship turnarounds throughout the 1990s. and grounds therefore—grounds they choose While hard-working Australians were adapt- to ignore and seek to circumvent. They are ing to the global economy and increasing men who pay lip-service to human rights and their productivity during this time, water- labour conventions when it suits them but front unions were living high on the hog, who will ignore all of those high-minded oblivious to the needs of exporting Austra- principles, covenants and conventions if they lians and to the detriment of all save them- need to put the squeeze on a nonconformer— selves. and that is what they did to these Christians. The government cleaned that mess up. This is just disgraceful, un-Australian and Granted, it took time and was done without another example of the depths which these the benefit of the support of the Senate in union thugs in the commercial building in- terms of numbers, but the clean-up job was dustry will plumb. And, of course, Labor done. Can I assure you, Acting Deputy defends them. President Kirk, that the job will be done The government will clean this industry again in the commercial construction indus- up, and senators opposite should be in no try. The job will be done and we will clean doubt about the outcome. I remind them of up this blight on our industrial relations re- the conduct of wharfies and their various cord. For Australia to be truly competitive unions, including the MUA, Waterside and to reach its full potential in the global Workers Federation and the infamous Paint- marketplace, the reform of the building in- ers and Dockers Union since the beginning dustry must occur. If it means dragging the of the Second World War in this country. Labor Party and its union master kicking and During World War II stevedoring unions screaming into the 21st century, then so be it. were so anarchical and bloody minded that Senator HUTCHINS (New South Wales) they sabotaged Australian military cam- (1.20 p.m.)—I would like to commence my paigns and regularly delayed and disrupted contribution this afternoon by thanking the vital supplies to our soldiers fighting in New

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 53

Governor-General for his speech. I agree Peter Costello has been doing the rounds of a with the Governor-General that the govern- number of Pentecostal circles lately. One of ment should use its mandate wisely. How- the most memorable was his speech to the ever, I am concerned that the government is Christian group Catch the Fire Ministries. It more concerned about its mandate than the was this same Christian group, Catch the accountability that comes with governing our Fire Ministries, that found themselves in nation. I would also like to thank the people trouble for vilification when their Victorian of New South Wales for returning me, John leader and Family First candidate for the Faulkner and Michael Forshaw to the Senate. Victorian Senate, Danny Nalliah, urged his We were fortunate to be returned as three out followers to ‘pull down Satan’s strongholds’ of the six from that state. The only other state such as mosques, Freemason, Buddhist and where the Labor Party had three out of six Hindu temples, brothels, bottle shops and was South Australia. This afternoon I think it gambling places. is appropriate that I comment on the rise of a When announced that we new political party and also comment on should be referring to Family First as the some of the tactics that the Liberal Party Assemblies of God party he was not far off used in last federal election in the seat of the mark. In 1977 Pastor Andrew Evans, Greenway. founder of Family First, took control of the The Australian public need to hear the Assemblies of God in Australia. At that time public policy implications that will now oc- the Assemblies of God was a struggling de- cur following the election of a Family First nomination. Evans spent the next 20 years senator and what that election means for the turning the church into one of the fastest relationship between religion and the state— growing denominations in the country. By as we will find when that new senator at- the time Evans resigned in 1997, member- tends here. I am not sure what sorts of public ship had exploded by 13 times the original policy debates we will be treated to but I number. Evans handed the denomination hope we do not get treated to creationism over to Brian Houston, chief pastor of Hill- from time to time. It is not something that I song, who continued to grow the denomina- know a lot about; maybe there are others in tion, particularly in Sydney’s hills district. here that do. Andrew Evans left the national operation of We should not be surprised that the Prime the Assemblies of God in 1997 only to resur- Minister has spent so much of his time meet- face in 2001 at the launch of his new ven- ing with Pentecostal groups. He has already ture, the formation of the Family First politi- opened the multimillion dollar Hillsong cal party. Evans was elected into the South Convention Centre in Sydney and the Treas- Australian upper house only to extend the urer addressed thousands of Hillsong confer- party across the nation to contest the 2004 ence people in the election year. I might add federal election. that the Treasurer’s brother, the Reverend Family First deny that they are a front for Tim Costello, remarked in relation to Hill- the Assemblies of God; however, the details song: speak for themselves. Pastor Andrew Evans, The quickest way to degrade the gospel is to link founder of Family First, has served for 30 it with money and the pursuit of money. It is the years as the pastor of the Klemzig and Para- total opposite of what Jesus preached. These peo- dise Assemblies of God congregations. He ple have learnt nothing from the mistakes made was the Assemblies of God national leader by the American televangelists. for 20 years and at one time was the Assem-

CHAMBER 54 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004 blies of God world secretary. The current them. From that moment on, estimations leader of Family First, Andrea Mason, is a have been made that the Liberal Party spent member of the Paradise Assemblies of God over a million dollars on the campaign. congregation. Family First’s candidate for However, it was only three years earlier that the Queensland Senate is also the Assemblies the local candidate had to beg the New South of God national vice-president. He has been Wales Liberal Party to provide him with a pastor for 30 years and is also the founder $40,000 to contest the 2001 federal election. and chairman of the student college at Ever- The Liberal Party campaign in Greenway ton Park run by the Assemblies of God. Peter not only had the funds; it had the supporters, Harris is currently serving as the federal as volunteers flooded the area, who were not party chairman of Family First and is also a afraid to deny that the Hillsong church had highly active member of the Paradise As- sent them. The Hillsong congregation were semblies of God congregation. He is also a also encouraged to support and to pray for partner in Business Generation Ministry In- the Family First Senate candidates for New ternational with Jeff Penny, who is Family South Wales. In the Greenway campaign we First’s Queensland co-ordinator. BGMI is a witnessed the most disturbing aspect of this Family First based business that aims to tap new trend in Australian politics. Eddie Hu- itself into the multibillion dollar Christian sic, a hardworking local Labor candidate was business world. Of the Family First national targeted during the election because of his executive, almost half of the members attend Bosnian Muslim heritage. Residents awoke the same Assemblies of God church. Any the day before the polling to find their letter- claims that Family First make about not rep- boxes crammed with a flyer with a fake ALP resenting the Assemblies of God are, in my logo emblazoned with a photo of Ed and the view, not correct. slogan ‘Ed Husic is a devout Muslim, Ed is The current national leader of the Assem- working hard to get a better deal for Islam’. I blies of God, Pastor Brian Houston, has re- have a copy of that document here. fused to be upstaged by his predecessor in The pamphlet was professionally designed terms of political involvement. There is a and printed at great cost by a party desperate clear split in the approach by the Assemblies to win votes on the eve of the election. As we of God to enter politics. Andrew Evans fa- all know, the Greenway campaign had one of vours the establishment of a separate Assem- the tightest of margins in the country and the blies of God political party whilst Brian direct beneficiary of this pamphlet was the Houston prefers to work within the Liberal new Liberal MP for Greenway, Mrs Louise Party. Both were successful in the recent Markus. This sort of campaigning should federal election as both houses of parliament have no future in our country. I hope that in are being represented by their denomination. the next three years Louise Markus will work In this year’s federal election, the Hillsong hard to heal the un-Australian sectarianism church threw its support behind their own that has occurred in Greenway. candidate in the marginal Sydney seat of So what are the beliefs driving the Family Greenway. The Prime Minister was so im- First Party? Hillsong, part of the Assemblies pressed by what he saw at Hillsong that the of God base, clearly state on their introduc- Liberal Party was quick to overthrow a rank tory website, ‘Jesus Christ came from and file preselection and invite Hillsong Heaven and earth to bring life more abun- member Louise Markus, who was not even a member of the Liberal Party, to represent

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 55 dant.’ That was from John 10:10. Jeremiah I draw attention to some mainstream reli- 29:11 says: gious leaders who have expressed concern ... God gives expression to His heart towards hu- about Pentecostal practices. Cardinal Pell of manity— the Catholic Church has recently said that and further— there is nothing in the gospel to say that if you followed Christ you would be more For I know the thoughts and plans that I have for you, says the Lord, plans to prosper you and not prosperous and successful. He said: to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. We know from Christ’s teachings that riches are The asset-rich Hillsong denomination draws no great advantage in moving towards heaven. upon the popular American Pentecostal trend Anglican Archbishop Ivan Lee has also ex- of tithing to fill the church coffers. The As- pressed concern that the extreme emotion of semblies of God in Australia also encourage Hillsong services could be manipulative, this practice. The Internet is full of sites out- saying ‘the worship is in danger of being lining people’s complaints about Assemblies experience centred rather than Bible teaching of God pastors pursuing individuals for centred’. With the election of a Family First money. There are also many young people on senator, the church and state are no longer the Internet who defend Hillsong and the separate entities. I try to practise my religion Assemblies of God on the grounds that as best I can; however, I would be disturbed ‘prosperity preaching’, once applied to life, if my church, the Catholic Church, was ex- provides financial rewards. clusively represented by a political party. The strength of our democracy is that it is Also evident in Australia are accounts of inclusive and not sectarian. pastors putting pressure on individuals to increase their tithes to more than 40 per cent Family First need to come clean to the na- of their incomes. Some evangelical pastors tion and reveal their agenda and policies have also been known to link salvation and rather than hide behind the smokescreen of the afterlife with their ability to increase their pro family rhetoric. Given the Prime tithes. Tithes are the most abused Christian Minister’s cultivation of the Pentecostal vote, financial practice in this country. It is for this it is time that the Prime Minister was ac- reason that the mainstream Christian de- countable for his dealings with Family First nominations such as the Catholics and An- so that he can help reinforce the continued glicans refuse to be involved in this practice. separation of religion and the state. The Pentecostal churches, such as Hillsong and Prime Minister has invested too much in the the Assemblies of God, have been known to Pentecostal churches to avoid scepticism. I force tithing upon their congregations if they look forward to asking our Prime Minister in wish to be actively involved in practising three years time if the price was right. their faith. This is an abuse upon individuals Senator BARNETT (Tasmania) (1.33 that the mainstream Christian churches see p.m.)—For a moment during the lead-up to as an outdated Old Testament practice that the United States elections I felt this uncanny has no relevance in the following of Jesus experience of deja vu: same style and margin Christ. Most Christians do not see their en- of victory, same identities, same issues and trance to heaven as a financial investment or the same lessons learned less than a month a one-off transaction, and any faith that pro- before when thrashed Mark poses salvation as such is ignoring the very Latham at the polls. Naturally some of the foundations of Christianity. comparisons were obvious: two conservative

CHAMBER 56 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004 leaders, seemingly divided community opin- Senator John Kerry, even though a Catholic, ion, a steady and buoyant economy, the ter- was seen as soft on the issue. rorism threat and national security. Both Likewise in Australia, the ALP was and George W. Bush and John Howard won by still is split. It initially refused to support handsome margins. In percentage terms, government legislation to ban gay marriage. President Bush won by 51 per cent to 48 per The strength of feeling within the church and cent and Prime Minister Howard by 52.75 in middle Australia was and is underrated. per cent to 47.25 per cent. The Republicans You know where John Howard stands, but increased their vote in both houses of con- Mark Latham is equivocal. Those general gress and retained control of both houses issues resonated with both US and Australian while in Australia the coalition increased its voters. The healthy condition of the economy majority and regained control of both houses in both countries became a massive hurdle of parliament for the first time in more than against the voters either changing horses or 20 years. Both leaders faced a challenge by opting for unknown quantities. In the US last opponents who ran vigorous but failed cam- month unemployment was 5.5 per cent, paigns against the incumbency of Bush and while in Australia it is currently 5.6 per cent. Howard. These opponents also enjoyed the In the US, growth in GDP stands at 3.7 per fascination and at times considerable support cent, while in Australia the forecast for 2004- of the mass media, and both were still re- 05 is 3.5 per cent. Inflation in the US is soundingly defeated. around two per cent and in Australia the May Why? Like the coalition in Australia, the budget forecast for 2004-05 is also for two Republican Party in the United States won per cent inflation. control of both houses of congress because, Against these signs of strong economies like the Australian experience, a clear major- with low interest rates the challengers had ity of voters in the United States knew who neither credible arguments nor credible al- to entrust their support to on issues such as ternatives. They certainly had little scope for the economy, national security, the fight philosophical flexibility and versatility. Both against terrorism and moral issues. In both Mark Latham and Senator John Kerry suf- Australia and the United States the elections fered from well-founded accusations of be- have demonstrated a complete failure of the ing complicated individuals who were fickle Left in mainstream politics to produce and and made flip-flop decisions. Both Latham promote policies, governance and a leader- and Kerry suffered from their equivocation ship style which are broadly acceptable to over Iraq and the need to finish the job—and the majority. The issues, however, were simi- even Hillary Clinton voted to support the war lar. In the US elections, the issue of gay mar- in Iraq. riages and gay adoptions took their place George W. Bush and John Kerry each had along side the economy, national security, a war chest of more than $400 million. John world terrorism and Iraq. One report showed Kerry’s was thanks partly to his wealthy that 22 per cent of US voters put moral is- wife. In Australia the ALP enjoyed an his- sues as the most important. These same is- torical advantage of funding from affiliated sues resonated with Australian electors. In all unions, which has allowed the party to at of the 11 state based referendums on gay least match or outspend the coalition in elec- marriage in the United States, they received a tion campaigns. The parity of funding be- resounding no. The Democrat candidate, tween the two American contestants and La-

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 57 bor’s inherent advantage in Australia was who might debate well and remember their still not enough to produce close contests. In lines. short, the Left in both countries was routed at I find the US presidential elections a fas- the hands of two disciplined parties with cinating celebration by Americans of their leaders who stuck by their policies and core culture and their democracy. They certainly values while exuding a leadership style that know how to make an election a major enter- was both reliable and resolute. John Kerry tainment event. At the Tuesday, 2 November flip-flopped over Iraq, initially voting against US election, Americans chose not just a it and then for it. Similarly, Mark Latham president, but one-third of the 100-member pulled a shallow stunt of a policy by saying senate, all of the 435-member House of Rep- that he would bring Australian troops home resentatives, most of the 7,000 state mem- from Iraq by Christmas. This policy had no bers of congress, 11 of the 50 state gover- bearing on the reality of the Iraq conflict. It nors, and thousands upon thousands of local was a crude Whitlamesque exercise based on mayors, councillors and officials. But there is the decision to ‘bring home’ Australian more—much more. Americans also elected troops from Vietnam in 1973. school board members, the boards of fire According to newspaper reports, Mark departments, county auditors and, in many Latham even poached cliches such as ‘ease states, the local sheriff. Then there were the the squeeze’ and ‘ladder of opportunity’ from judiciary, county court, appeal court, and the Democratic Party in the US. John Kerry state supreme court justices. Washington was seen as weak on terrorism and national political consultant Earl Bender says that the security. Mark Latham flip-flopped over is- US has more than 170,000 elected officers. sues such as the Pharmaceutical Benefits According to one report there are at least Scheme when Labor dropped its two-year 83,000 units of government in the US. The opposition to an increase in co-payments. US founding fathers designed the system this This was sheer electoral expediency which way to ensure power devolved down to the was exposed on another front when Latham people rather than being centralised in Wash- dramatically flip-flopped over the environ- ington, DC. With so many elections on one ment and betrayed Labor’s own constituency day the political party on the ascendancy in by telling timber workers in Tasmania what the race for the White House could expect a they wanted to hear on one day, and then certain amount of this popularity to flow telling environmentalists and the Greens through the system down to local govern- what they wanted to hear the very next day. ments and counties. This is the winner-take- The moral of the story from both elections all capacity built into the US electoral sys- is one about leadership. John Howard and tem, and the recent elections reflected this George W. Bush may be hated by the Left capacity. and ridiculed by cartoonists but they are in On funding the election campaigns the no doubt about what they both stand for. story was always big. One recent report es- They are resolute, they share commonsense timated the cost of the elections, plus the values and they are prepared to stay the referendums that go with them, to be $US3.9 course with tough decisions when they be- billion, or $A5.3 billion. The Centre for Re- lieve it is in the country’s best interest. Such sponsive Politics said it represented a 30 per qualities, especially proven qualities, are cent increase on the cost of elections held untroubled by the challenge from opponents four years earlier. US politics requires big money, big donors and big IOUs. A standard

CHAMBER 58 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004

Senate campaign cost over $5 million in phone calls from politicians are common- 2002 and a House of Representatives cam- place. Australians are far more guarded. Aus- paign cost around $1 million. A New York tralians put up with a few weeks of hard and Senate race cost an estimated $28 million heavy campaigning and being bombarded and in California the cost was $20 million. with TV and other media advertisements as The bigger the state, the higher the cost. In well as heaps of direct mail. The US public, the House of Representatives approximately however, have to endure up to two years of $8.5 million was raised in Texas District 32 campaigning for the presidential elections, and $5.7 million was raised in South Dakota with the campaign proper going for at least District 1. Interestingly, in 2002, 98 per cent three months following the national conven- of the House of Representatives incumbents tions of each party. won and 85 per cent of the incumbent sena- The US presidential campaign will cost tors won. US elections are held every two the protagonists and their allies the equiva- years on the first Tuesday after the first lent of the entire budget of my home state of Monday in November. Presidents and state Tasmania, just for advertising, direct mail governors are voted in for four years; sena- and travel costs. In 2004 we saw the first tors, federal and state, are voted in for six billion dollar—US dollars—presidential years, as in Australia; and members of the campaign. According to one report, President House of Representatives, federal and state, George W. Bush raised $US360 million and are voted in for two years. Democrat candidate John Kerry raised I campaigned for former Republican Gov- $US320 million, and a further $US450 mil- ernor Jim Rhodes in Ohio in November 1986 lion was raised by associated entities and when I was working with the Taft law firm in what are called political action committees Washington, DC. My boss was former Re- or PACs. A recent article noted that 50 per publican Senator Bob Taft Jr, whose father cent of the campaign budget was spent on was ‘Mr Republican’, also a senator. His advertising and that the bulk of the remain- grandfather was William Howard Taft, the der was spent on direct mail and travel re- US president from 1908 to 1912. President lated costs. In addition, an estimated $US200 Taft was responsible for introducing income million of the campaign expenditure is tax- tax and, as the largest President in history, payer or publicly funded, and this includes for getting stuck in the bath at the White funding for the Republican and Democratic House. My boss’s son is Bob A. Taft II, cur- national conventions. These are the party rent governor of Ohio. conventions that formally choose their presi- The US places a limit of two consecutive dential and vice-presidential candidates. terms, or eight years, on presidents and gov- Every state has a certain number of dele- ernors. Former Governor Rhodes from Ohio gates. The conventions these days serve as a created history by winning two terms, having public relations fiesta designed to ‘sell’ the four years off, then winning two more terms. candidates and their policies and to energise Then, after having another four years off, he the campaign. Thankfully, in Australia you attempted another term and lost. As you may do not have to be a millionaire or have big- have noted from the TV coverage, the US money backers as they do in the US. It does campaigning techniques are far more in- help if you are a sporting hero, pop star or your-face than in Australia. There are huge cultural identity. Australians appreciate being rosettes and buttons on lapels and mega- able to relate to their MPs in a genuine way. phone politics in the streets. Pre-recorded

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 59

So many people ask me how the US elec- tory: John Quincy Adams in 1824, Hayes in toral system works. In Australia it is compul- 1876 and Harrison in 1888. This system en- sory to register to vote, and given that less courages the presidential candidates to focus than six per cent of Australians vote infor- their efforts on the major city or population mally this shows how compulsory voting has centres in each state that are marginal or ‘not successfully encouraged engagement with in the bag’. Not since 1960, when Richard our political system. Unlike Australia, voting Nixon visited every state, has this occurred, in the USA is voluntary. In 2000, 54.5 per and he lost anyway. Clearly it would not be a cent of the voting age population turned out clever use of time. Similarly, in Australia it is to vote, and only 49 per cent in 1996. In the the marginal seats that receive the most at- 2 November election the voter turnout across tention. The winner of the election is inaugu- the US was much better than expected and rated, officially takes office, on 20 January was closer to 60 per cent. Contrary to public following the election, in this case 20 Janu- perception, the US President is elected not ary 2005. directly by the people but via what is known In Australia public funding was first intro- as the electoral college. Each of the 50 states duced at the federal level in 1983 by Labor in the US has electoral college votes equal to Prime Minister Bob Hawke, with the support its number of senators, which is two per of the Liberal Party. Funding for the political state, and its number of members of the parties some years ago doubled from $15 House Of Representatives, which depends on million to $30 million per election. In 2001 the size of its population. For example, Cali- the parties received $1.79 per vote, and in fornia has 55 electoral college votes, while 2004 they received $1.94. The total amount the seven smallest states and Washington, paid to eligible candidates for the 2001 elec- DC have only three. So 100 senators, 435 tion was $38.5 million. members of the House Of Representatives Australia has to some degree followed the and three representatives from Washington, US experience because, more than ever, the DC make up the 538 electoral college votes. contest is promoted by the media as a gladia- Thus, a majority of 270 is required to win. torial battle between two protagonists, as The candidate who wins the popular vote seen in the 9 October elections between John wins all the electoral college votes in that Howard and Mark Latham. I do not think state. The electoral college voters are real that presidential style elections are necessar- people who cast their ‘electoral college’ ily a good thing. I believe that policies rather votes on 13 November, by convention ac- than the charisma or otherwise of one person cording to how they were chosen from the ought to be the defining criteria for ballot popular vote. Historically, none of these box appeal, but I expect that with the mass people have ever broken ranks and voted for media mentality prevalent in both countries the other candidate, but if they did it would it is here to stay. Thankfully, voters in Aus- no doubt spark some sort of constitutional tralia tend to judge contestants by their poli- crisis. This is the ‘winner takes all’ system. cies at least as much as by their personalities. Although Democrat Al Gore won the popular From the time he was elected as Leader of vote in 2000, with 48.4 per cent to George W the Opposition, Mark Latham was afforded Bush’s 47.9 per cent, he lost the election be- celebrity status in the media by journalists cause Bush won a majority of the electoral who wanted a contest, a change of govern- college votes, with 271 to 266. This has oc- ment or both. The media swallowed his po- curred on three other occasions in US his- litical message of being the youthful agent of

CHAMBER 60 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004 change while happily portraying the PM and The opening of parliament on Tuesday the coalition as being on the reform back- was, I think, another missed opportunity for foot. Thankfully, voters did not buy this su- this government to acknowledge Indigenous perficial hype and the better leader, the better Australians. The opening of parliament pro- team and the better policies won the day. As vided a great opportunity to hold out a hand I have argued, they got the same result in of reconciliation to Indigenous people and to America—for similar reasons. include them in part of the ceremony. I re- Senator CROSSIN (Northern Territory) member in my contribution to an address-in- (1.50 p.m.)—I am pleased to have this op- reply debate some years ago mentioning portunity this afternoon to begin my contri- when Clare Martin’s first Labor government bution to the address-in-reply to the Gover- was elected in the Northern Territory. What a nor-General’s speech following the federal fabulous day it was when, for the first time election on 9 October. I begin by saying that ever, Indigenous people were invited onto I have always felt it very humbling and a the floor of the parliament and opened par- privilege and an honour to be elected to the liament along with Clare Martin and the La- Senate. It is times like this when you reflect bor Party. They participated in their own and think that it is quite an opportunity to be spiritual and ritual way and contributed to one of only 76 people out of the nearly 10 the opening of the parliament on that day. It million people who voted nationally to be is something that people in the Northern Ter- able to represent your constituency in a place ritory have never forgotten. It was a huge like this. So I do want to begin by again symbolic sign of reconciliation, and I think it thanking the people of the Northern Terri- made the opening something special. tory. This is the third federal election I have When I think back to Tuesday, I do not faced and I want to pay tribute to the people particularly remember anything special about in the Northern Territory, and particularly my that day. There was nothing different from constituents on Christmas Island and Cocos the opening of parliament following the 2001 (Keeling) Islands. election or following the 1998 election. It is As a result of this election, we have seen a another missed opportunity by this govern- swing to the Labor Party in the Northern Ter- ment to actually acknowledge Indigenous ritory in the Senate spot—a swing of 2.15 Australians by involving them in the opening per cent compared to a swing of only 1.33 of parliament—no didgeridoo, no flag flying, per cent to my opponent in the CLP. I also no senior Indigenous leaders here in this gal- want to take this opportunity to pay tribute to lery to enjoy that moment with us. my colleague Warren Snowdon, who man- But of course in the new Howard ministry aged not only to retain his seat of Lingiari the title of ‘reconciliation’ has just vanished, but to retain it with an overwhelming major- disappeared—amazing, really, when you ity by getting more than 50 per cent of the think that after the 2001 election that was the primary vote. I also want to use this opportu- platform on which this Prime Minister said nity to acknowledge the work of our candi- he would base his following three years date in the electorate of Solomon, Jim work. In fact he went to great lengths to Davidson, for the contribution that he has mention his agenda for reconciliation, yet made to both the party and the people in three years later we find that it is off the Solomon and also personally in the time that agenda and not even mentioned in the title of he spent as a candidate. one of the ministers.

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 61

I will turn to some of the events of the arrives, they can miss out. That is unfortu- federal election. In relation to Lingiari, I nate, and perhaps we need to be a bit more think the endorsement of both Warren Snow- creative in thinking about the ways we can don and me shows overwhelmingly that In- ensure that Indigenous people get an oppor- digenous people have again supported the tunity to vote, given the nomadic nature of policies of the Australian Labor Party when their communities. it comes to Indigenous affairs. Quite clearly, That leads me to say that, certainly in the in the lead-up to the election we know that Northern Territory, I thought the Australian Indigenous people were telling us they did Electoral Commission had done a terrific job not like the new agenda of Indigenous affairs this time. They started mobile polling two under this government. They wanted a na- weeks out from the date of the federal elec- tionally elected body. They wanted the man- tion on 9 October. They managed to get to date, to speak on their behalf, to be given to over 200 communities, if my memory serves Indigenous people in this country. They did me right. I travelled with the mobile polling not endorse an Indigenous advisory council in the week before the election and went to appointed by the minister. They have no communities of only 28 or 42 people. I do problem with senior Indigenous leaders with believe that we have one of the best systems expertise in their field advising ministers in in the world whereby we can manage to mo- particular portfolios or even being on a na- bilise the Electoral Commission system and tional body—but not solely being the ap- get it onto small aircraft or trucks—or even pointees of a national body. Perhaps, as the on boats in the case of the AEC heading out people in North Queensland said to us during from Borroloola to an island in the Gulf of the Senate Select Committee on the Admini- Carpentaria—to ensure that we try as hard as stration of Indigenous Affairs inquiry, they we possibly can to make sure that each and endorse standing side by side with people every Australian has the opportunity to vote. who are nationally elected but to totally dis- I take this opportunity to pass on my con- regard the will and voice of Aboriginal peo- gratulations publicly to the Australian Elec- ple was not something they could endorse. toral Commission and to all the officers who There are nearly 25,000 Indigenous peo- worked at the Electoral Commission in the ple on the roll in the electorate of Lingiari, Northern Territory on the work that they and it is interesting to note that only about have done. I want to also pay tribute to the half of those people voted. I think that goes members of the Labor Party in the Territory. to a number of issues. I think it reflects the I seek leave to continue my remarks later. fact that this government has abandoned the Leave granted; debate adjourned. information and education section of the COMMITTEES Australian Electoral Commission, so it makes it a much more difficult task to get Legislation Committee Indigenous people on the roll and teach them Reference about the voting system. It also means that Senator LUDWIG (Queensland) (1.59 although the Australian Electoral Commis- p.m.)—by leave—Subject to the Scrutiny of sion does a great job—and I want to say a bit Bills Committee, I move: more about that in a moment—it is very dif- That, subject to the appointment of committee ficult for Indigenous people to vote. If they members, the Workplace Relations Amendment are not actually at their outstation or com- (Agreement Validation) Bill 2004 be referred to munity on the day the mobile polling system the Employment, Workplace Relations and Edu-

CHAMBER 62 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004 cation Legislation Committee for inquiry and and/or involvement in any such meetings or report by 29 November 2004. discussions? Given the very serious nature of Question agreed to. the allegations made against Senator Sandy QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE Macdonald, is the Leader of the Government in the Senate aware of why Senator Sandy Federal Election: Member for New Macdonald has not yet taken the opportunity England to make a personal explanation to the Sen- Senator CARR (2.00 p.m.)—My ques- ate? tion without notice is to the Leader of the Senator HILL—The matter is subject to Government in the Senate, Senator Hill, and a police investigation, and the police should the Minister representing the Prime Minister. be allowed to do their task. In relation to the electoral bribery allegations made by the member for New England, I ask DISTINGUISHED VISITORS whether the minister recalls the Prime Minis- The PRESIDENT—Order! I draw the at- ter on 21 September this year stating, ‘I have tention of honourable senators to the pres- made inquiries, and I’ve been able to dis- ence in the gallery of the Iraqi ambassador cover no evidence of it.’ Has the Deputy designate, His Excellency Mr Ghanim Taha Leader of the National Party in the Senate Ahmad al-Shibli, and party. We welcome responded to the Prime Minister’s inquiries you to the Senate and we trust that your visit on this matter? Has Senator Sandy Mac- will be both enjoyable and instructive. donald confirmed to the Prime Minister Honourable senators—Hear, hear! whether he attended any meeting with Mr QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE Greg Maguire where discussions included Mr Windsor and inducements for him not to Economy: Policy stand for New England? Has Mr Anderson’s Senator FIFIELD (2.03 p.m.)—My ques- Chief of Staff, Wendy Armstrong, confirmed tion is to the Minister for Finance and Ad- to the Prime Minister whether she attended ministration. Will the minister inform the part of any such meeting? If they have done Senate of the government’s approach to so, when did Senator Sandy Macdonald and sound economic management? Is the minis- Ms Armstrong make these statements to the ter aware of any alternative proposals? Prime Minister? Was it before or after the Senator MINCHIN—I thank Senator Prime Minister’s statement of 21 September? Fifield for his question and acknowledge his Senator HILL—I am not personally strong interest in the economy. I think the aware of the nature of the inquiries con- most significant commentary on the state of ducted by the Prime Minister. I will refer that the economy came on 9 October, of course, to the Prime Minister. I suspect his response when the Australian people expressed very will be that this matter is the subject of a po- clear support for the Howard government’s lice investigation and that the police should strong record of managing the Australian be allowed to do their job. economy. Since the election, we have had Senator CARR—Mr President, I ask a further confirmation of that strength. There supplementary question. Have Senator Sandy was the ABS report that the CPI rose by only Macdonald and the Deputy Prime Minister’s 2.3 per cent in the year to September, putting Chief of Staff, Ms Armstrong, availed them- inflation right at the low end of the Reserve selves of the opportunity to swear statutory Bank’s band. Then there was the ABS report declarations regarding their knowledge of that unemployment has fallen to just 5.3 per

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 63 cent—the lowest rate since 1977. I note that Bank and Qantas. They should support our was also a year in which the coalition gov- policies to address skill shortages, particu- erned this country. The IMF has also recently larly through the creation of the new Austra- praised the government: lian technical colleges. They should support ... Australia’s strong performance, with six years our tax cuts for entrepreneurs and small of budget surpluses, falling public debt, low infla- business. They should support our policy of tion, high and rising productivity, and a long pe- providing legal protection for independent riod of uninterrupted growth that has underpinned contractors. They should also support our a dynamic job market. tariff reforms and assistance package for the The IMF also sensibly called for further re- TCF sector where the industry itself wants form, particularly in areas like work force them to act, and they refuse to. participation and improving productivity. In addition, we await Labor’s abandon- There was a time when those opposite in the ment of some of the most irresponsible and Labor Party used to champion such re- antibusiness policies that they have had and forms—and we have always given credit for took to the last election, like signing the that where it is due—but the Labor Party in deeply flawed Kyoto protocol, their policy to opposition has basically wasted the last nine implement a bottomless pit called Medicare years, opposing virtually every government Gold, their policy to abolish Australian proposal aimed at improving the perform- workplace agreements, their plundering of ance of the Australian economy. If the Labor superannuation savings in their policy and Party is serious about earning some eco- their proposed increased taxes on computer nomic credibility, a good start would be to software, business migration, the tourism scrap the industrial relations policy that it industry and the mining industry. We wel- took to the last election. A very respected come the rhetoric from the Labor Party, but former Labor pollster, Mr Rod Cameron, we want to see some action. said in today’s Age: Regional Services: Program Funding ... the ALP took into the recent campaign an in- dustrial relations policy that was backward- Senator O’BRIEN (2.07 p.m.)—My looking and totally out of step with community question is to Senator Ian Campbell, repre- and workforce trends. senting the Minister for Transport and Re- He went on to say: gional Services. Can the minister confirm that the Regional Partnerships Program of Unarguably, a considerable part of the economic Minister Anderson’s own department is re- success of the past decade is related to the de- regulation of the economy and the labour market. sponsible for providing a grant of $6 million to the National Equine and Livestock Centre In addition to scrapping the policy which during the federal election campaign? Can Rod Cameron sensibly calls for, Labor could the minister also confirm that Minister do a lot of things to improve their economic Anderson had refused a $3.5 million grant to credibility. They should start by supporting the National Equine and Livestock Centre in an unfair dismissal exemption for small 2002, when he relied on an independent as- business so it can create jobs. They should sessment by Professor John Chudleigh which support reforms to the disability support pen- found that there were serious concerns about sion so we can encourage work force partici- the project’s viability? Can the Minister ex- pation. They should support the full privati- plain to the Senate the basis for the stunning sation of Telstra just like they honourably reversal on this funding and exactly what and sensibly privatised the Commonwealth

CHAMBER 64 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004 involvement the Deputy Prime Minister had latest figures indicate that only around 17 per in the assessment of both applications and in cent of private sector employees now belong the final decision to make the grant? Were to a trade union—or, in the case of those op- any representations made by Senator Sandy posite, 100 per cent. Indeed, the latest figures Macdonald in relation to this very significant indicate that there are now more self- grant announced during the election cam- employed entrepreneurs in Australia than paign? there are trade unionists. Senator IAN CAMPBELL—I do not Labor asserts that we on this side are have information on that particular grant or somehow antiunion. I assure the Senate and that program, but I would be happy to get the Australian people that that is just wrong, whatever information I can and report back as was seen shortly before the federal elec- in due course. tion in those wonderful scenes at the Albert Senator O’BRIEN—Mr President, I ask Hall in Launceston, in the seat of Bass—now a supplementary question. I thank the minis- so ably represented by Mr Michael Ferguson. ter for his assurance. I would urge him to We could have crowd surfed the Prime Min- report back to the Senate today on those mat- ister across all those trade unionists—at a ters. That information must be easily avail- rally where there was not a single Labor able. What action will be taken to safeguard senator in sight. all departmental documents and records re- The Labor Party wonders why trade un- garding all consideration of funding for the ionists are no longer interested in their trade National Equine and Livestock Centre, in- unions and why they are deserting the Aus- cluding the unsuccessful applications on pre- tralian Labor Party. Ask those workers who vious occasions and the successful funding were at the Albert Hall in Bass just before bid during the recent federal election cam- the election. You and I were there, Mr Presi- paign? dent, as were all the Tasmanian senators. We Senator IAN CAMPBELL—I have al- are very proud to be Liberal senators. I must ready given an undertaking to bring relevant correct myself—only Liberal senators were information back in due course. there; the Labor senators did not feel com- fortable in the presence of so many workers. Workplace Relations: Policy The reason is that the Australian people are Senator JOHNSTON (2.09 p.m.)—My now recognising that it is the Howard gov- question is to the Special Minister of State, ernment that looks after the workers’ inter- Senator Abetz, representing the Minister for ests. That is why, after 8½ years of the How- Employment and Workplace Relations. Will ard government, we now have the lowest rate the minister outline to the Senate the level of of industrial disputation since records were union involvement in the Australian work- first kept in 1913. The average worker is place? Will the minister further outline how now $280 a fortnight better off in real terms that Howard government’s industrial rela- since 1996 because we have been able to tions policies are contributing to real jobs combine jobs growth with real wages growth, real wages growth and less industrial growth. Those on the other side suggest you action? Is the minister aware of any alterna- cannot do that. That is why they want to tive policies? abolish the junior jobs rate, the junior wage, Senator ABETZ—I thank Senator Johns- which would throw thousands of young Aus- ton for his question and acknowledge his tralians on the unemployment scrap heap longstanding interest in these matters. The again. We as a government have broken that

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 65 circuit because we wanted to ensure that as the defeated member for Braddon on his many Australians as possible could get em- staff, because Mr Sidebottom’s failure as a ployment. federal member will now simply be trans- Since former senator Graham Richardson lated into Mr Latham’s office, which will put Green preferences before jobs, the Labor make it even worse for Mr Latham and the Party have been losing support. Once, the Labor Party. trade union movement was the cream of the Senator Chris Evans interjecting— workers of Australia. Today, you will find The PRESIDENT—Order! Senator Ev- union officials who have never had any dirt ans, I remind you that it is not in order to under their fingernails but who have been turn your back on the chair and verbal people university educated—middle-class apparat- in the chamber. I cannot hear what you are chiks—and I am sure Senator Conroy would saying. agree with me that that is now the archetypal Telstra: Privatisation trade union official. All they are concerned about is their preselection to get into this Senator STEPHENS (2.15 p.m.)—My place, rather than the interests of the work- question is to Senator Coonan, the Minister ers. The fact is very clear, as shown on 9 Oc- for Communications, Information Technol- tober, that the Howard government is the ogy and the Arts. Is the minister aware of government for the workers. That is why the comments made earlier today by National workers of Australia supported us in such Party MP De-Anne Kelly in which she said: unprecedented numbers. (Time expired) ‘We still have a significant presence in the Senate and obviously as a party to the coali- Senator JOHNSTON—Mr President, I tion our views at the end will predominate’? ask a supplementary question. Could the In light of this unequivocal statement by the minister further provide to the Senate the National Party minister, will the National reasons for the generous ovation the Prime Party’s view on the sale of Telstra ‘predomi- Minister received from Tasmanian CFMEU nate’ the coalition’s position, or does the members shortly prior to the last federal minister expect The Nationals to roll over election? again, just as they did on the GST? Senator Chris Evans—You were just Senator COONAN—I thank Senator telling us they were all thugs. Now you’ve Stephens for the question. The government changed your mind. will pursue its longstanding policy for the Senator ABETZ—Isn’t it amazing how full privatisation of Telstra. As I said yester- sensitive those opposite get when you are day, Telstra’s future sale will be contingent able to point to examples where trade union- on adequate telecommunication service lev- ists and workers are supportive of the How- els and appropriate market conditions. ard government and its policies? Unlike Mr Unlike the Labor Party, the government has Latham, who snuck in and out of Tasmania demonstrated its commitment to improving to deliver a policy that he was too scared to telecommunication services and ensuring tell the workers about, Mr Howard an- service levels for telecommunications across nounced his policy, not to a media contingent Australia. This has been particularly relevant but to the workers and those affected by the to improving services in rural and regional policy. That is why he got the ovation. Mr Australia. As I said yesterday, an exhaustive Latham will not be able to make up for his investigation into telecommunications has misdeeds in Tasmania by trying to employ been carried out by Mr Estens. The inquiry

CHAMBER 66 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004 made 39 recommendations, all of which the Minister that telecommunication service government has accepted. We announced a standards in the bush are ‘up to scratch’? $181 million package of initiatives to re- Can the minister inform the Senate what the spond to the inquiry. term ‘up to scratch’ really means? Minister, The government is continuing to imple- now that ’s parents have the ment responses to all the Estens recommen- phone back on in Danglemah, do you con- dations. The government remains committed sider that telecommunication service stan- to the sale of Telstra because it believes it to dards right across the bush are up to scratch? be in the best interests of the company itself, Senator COONAN—I thank Senator its 1.8 million shareholders, the wider tele- Stephens for the supplementary question. I communications industry and, most impor- am grateful to her for reminding me of the tantly, all Australians. Competition, as we issue to do with Senator elect Joyce’s par- know, drives new services and lower prices, ents. Despite the fact that it is said that their and regulation provides safeguards to protect telephone service was a problem, in a report consumers. The government does not need to in a newspaper Mr Joyce apparently denied own Telstra to achieve those outcomes. The that there was any Telstra deal for his par- sale will proceed on those contingent condi- ents. tions of implementing all of the Estens re- Opposition senators interjecting— quirements and the market conditions being Senator COONAN—I am just going on correct. As was said yesterday, this is a pol- what has been reported in the newspaper. icy that the government will pursue. Contrary to what was put yesterday, it does I would suggest that, if anyone is looking not seem that there was any special deal for some political split, the very best exam- whatsoever for Mr Joyce’s parents. The La- ple, as Senator Abetz alluded to, is Labor’s bor Party can stop trying to join dots that do forestry policy. It was extremely diverting, to not exist with the suggestion that Senator say the least, to see not only Labor tear itself elect Joyce’s parents received some sort of apart over a policy but also a whole lot of special deal. As I said in response to Senator people walk off and sulk and not even be Stephens, we will continue— (Time expired) prepared to back their leader and serve on Child Abuse: Compensation the front bench. The Labor Party had to prac- tically conduct a raffle to get people to sit on Senator ALLISON (2.21 p.m.)—My the front bench. The government will con- question is to the Minister representing the tinue to implement all of the Estens recom- Minister for Health and Ageing. Is the minis- mendations to ensure that all Australians ter aware that child victims of sexual and have first-class telecommunications, irre- physical abuse who have been given out-of- spective of where they live. It will continue court compensation by churches responsible to do this and proceed with its policy. for that abuse are now being asked to pay some of that money to the government? Can Senator STEPHENS—Mr President, I the minister explain why these people are ask a supplementary question. I thank the being asked to pay for the health services minister for her response. I am concerned that helped them deal with that abuse, pro- that perhaps she does not really understand vided under Medicare many years before? what the recommendations of the Estens in- Minister, as we approach the 15th anniver- quiry mean in terms of service delivery. Is sary of the Convention on the Rights of the the minister aware of comments by the Prime Child, don’t you think a little generosity is

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 67 appropriate for the people whose plight your their duty to protect children from this government and others have ignored for dec- abuse—and, in some cases, played a role by ades? sending those children to institutions in Senator PATTERSON—I thank Senator which the abuse occurred—and that forcing Allison for the question. The question she victims to go back to retrieve records con- has asked is about compensation recoveries tributes to further victimisation? Minister, from abuse victims. I do have some informa- isn’t compassion for these people much more tion here that the Minister for Health and important than recovering what is, to the Ageing provided me with, and I will provide government, a very small amount of reve- that to the Senate. Several articles have ap- nue? peared in national newspapers over the Senator PATTERSON—I think I have weekend and on 16 November outlining the given the answer to Senator Allison. Of perceived situation faced by abuse victims. course there are always difficult situations The HIC is currently examining this matter when you are involved in compensation and is proposing to hold discussions with cases, whether it is somebody who has had representatives of the Tasmanian Anglican an accident or in the tragic circumstances of Church. The health and ageing portfolio have child abuse. But the advice that I have here is not had any discussions with the parties in- for a situation where people have been com- volved in this action. All discussions to date pensated for medical expenses and that it have been with representatives of the HIC. would be being paid for twice. If there is any There is no reason to believe that current further information, I will provide the hon- laws should be changed. Claimants for com- ourable senator with it. pensation really should not be allowed to Telstra: Service Charges double-dip, and this applies in other areas as Senator MOORE (2.24 p.m.)—My ques- well as within this one. In situations where tion is to Senator Coonan, the Minister for their compensation and the settlement have Communications, Information Technology allowed for medical expenses there is provi- and the Arts. Can the minister confirm that sion in existing legislation for an exemption since January 2000 Telstra’s standard line for criminal injuries compensation. Legal rental charges have risen from $11.65 per advice is that this provision is only available month to between $26.95 and $29.95 per where a person has been injured through the month? Is the minister aware that, in its re- commission of a crime and where a govern- cent draft report on Telstra’s price control ment or government agency is making a arrangements, the Australian Competition payment to the victim—for example, the and Consumer Commission stated that it was state and territory crimes compensation acts. ‘particularly concerned about future price Senator ALLISON—Mr President, I ask increases for line rental’ and recommended a supplementary question. Minister, isn’t it that line rental prices should be subject to an the case that the victims were unaware that ‘additional form of price control’? Can the the government would be demanding its cut minister give a commitment to the full im- when the compensation sum was in fact plementation of the ACCC’s recommenda- agreed with the churches? Does the minister tions for tougher price controls to prevent agree that these cases are special, including Telstra from using its market power to rip off the fact that at the time of the abuse the chil- us, the consumers? dren were minors and unable to prevent that abuse, that governments at the time failed in

CHAMBER 68 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004

Senator COONAN—I thank the senator in final form, the government will consider for the question. Telstra’s ability to raise line its advice and put in place an appropriate rentals is, of course, constrained by price arrangement for price controls for Telstra by controls imposed on it by this government. 30 June 2005. We built the consumer safeguards around But the problem, of course, with Labor’s telecommunications, and we are going to approach to this issue is that you would maintain them. The government impose re- completely stifle Telstra if you were going to tail price controls on Telstra in order to drive freeze line rental charges. In fact, I think that efficiency improvements to lower overall was the policy that was put forward by the prices for consumers in markets where com- former spokesperson, Mr Tanner, without petition is not yet fully developed. Within any plan at all as to how you would keep these constraints, Telstra—like any other these controls frozen, whether it would be in company—may vary its prices as it considers perpetuity or how you would ever assess the appropriate, but it is subject to a cap. situation. The government, of course, will be Telstra’s compliance with the price con- very carefully looking at the ACCC’s rec- trols is assessed annually by the ACCC. A ommendation. I say this to the opposition breach of the price controls is a breach of and I say this to anyone listening to the Telstra’s licence condition and can be penal- broadcast: the government take very seri- ised by a $10 million fine. The government ously the need for a robust system of price has accepted ACCC and Productivity Com- caps. We built these guarantees for consum- mission advice that gradually increasing line ers, and we will maintain them. rental charges to reflect the costs of provid- Senator MOORE—Mr President, I ask a ing phone lines is in the long-term interests supplementary question. Does the minister of consumers, and the government is very accept that the ACCC’s report convincingly conscious of the need to protect low-income demonstrates the inadequacy of the price consumers from the impact of line rental control regime presided over by the Howard increases. To protect low-income consumers, government and outlined by the minister in the government has imposed a licence condi- her response? In light of this report, will the tion on Telstra requiring it to offer a $170 government now focus on looking after con- million annual package of assistance meas- sumers of telecommunications services ures for low-income consumers. This pack- rather than just boosting Telstra’s profits to age of measures is assessed by the Low- fatten it up for the necessary, as stated by the Income Measures Assessment Committee, minister, privatisation? LIMAC, that is made up of representatives Senator COONAN—As usual, that is an from peak welfare bodies. So I am pleased to entire misrepresentation of what I said. What be able to tell the Senate that LIMAC’s as- I have said, in fact, is that this government sessment of this low-income protection ar- has built safeguards for consumers. We un- rangement is that Telstra has responded derstand that it is important to have a robust genuinely and comprehensively to the li- system of consumer safeguards embodied in cence requirement to provide a program as- price caps and, of course, we will retain un- sisting low-income Australians to access timed local calls, as we have said consis- telecommunications services. And, looking tently. In those circumstances, I will be to the future, the government has directed the closely considering the ACCC’s final report ACCC to review the existing price control with a view to putting new price control ar- arrangements. Once the ACCC has reported

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 69 rangements in place, as I said, before the will be shortly. We are looking forward to it current price controls expire in June 2005. being debated and resolved before the par- The report is due to be delivered, I think, in liament gets up at the end of this session. January 2005. Therefore, the detail will obviously be sub- Trade: Free Trade Agreement ject to debate within this chamber and Sena- tor Harris, who took an interest in these mat- Senator HARRIS (2.30 p.m.)—My ques- ters on the last occasion, will no doubt ask tion is to Senator Robert Hill, representing detailed questions in relation to those the Minister for Trade. As reported in an arti- changes when the bill comes before the Sen- cle in the Australian Financial Review on ate. Tuesday, 16 November 2004: Opposition senators interjecting— The federal government has bowed to pressure from the US to toughen Australian copyright law Senator HILL—I do not know about the as part of the free-trade agreement between the Labor Party. I said ‘Senator Harris’. The La- two countries. bor Party I do not think has an interest in … … … matters related to economic growth. The The bill would also clarify the liability of internet amendments do not represent a change in service providers where alleged breaches of intel- government policy in relation to the Copy- lectual property were carried out online. right Act, nor any change to our agreement Minister, can you give the Senate an assur- under the Australia-United States free trade ance that a person who is making a tempo- agreement. I understand the amendments are rary copy of a program will not incur any largely of a technical nature designed to clar- criminal liability? Will the minister give a ify Australia’s implementation of its copy- commitment that there will be no additional right obligations under that legislation. liabilities incurred on Internet service pro- Senator HARRIS—Mr President, I ask a viders and a commitment to consult with the supplementary question. I thank Senator Hill industry prior to the development of the leg- for his answer. He omitted to indicate islation? whether the government will give an assur- Senator HILL—The good news, which ance that for the home viewer there will be we all heard today, is that Australia and the no criminal liability for making personal United States have now exchanged letters to temporary copies. Also, the other area of bring the historic Australia-US free trade concern relates to the providers of innovative agreement into force on 1 January 2005. That and open source software that is accessible is good news for all Australians who have an today. Will the minister ensure that this type interest in a growing economy and all the of software, which communicates between benefits that flow from a growing econ- different types of Internet language, remains omy—something the Labor Party knows available to providers of innovative and open nothing about. As part of this process, the source software? government indicated to the US that it would Senator HILL—Mr President, as I said, introduce some amendments to the Copy- if we are going to debate legislation it is bet- right Act 1968 to remove ambiguities and ter to have the legislation before us at that improve its practical operation for all af- time. As Senator Harris will remember, on fected stakeholders. That was announced in the last occasion the concern we had, which Australia earlier this week. As I understand we are seeking to guard against and which it, the bill has not yet been introduced but will be reinforced in these amendments, re-

CHAMBER 70 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004 lated to commercial copyright privacy activ- I fully appreciate that the states and terri- ity. Senator Harris, I am sure, would ac- tories are willing to take part in this—that knowledge the important copyright laws the intention is there—but if the opposition is which protect against commercial abuse. It is going to say that it is the fault of the Com- in that area that the emphasis can be ex- monwealth government, then let us look at it pected. and see just why there was that delay. In ar- Crime: Australian National Child riving at an agreement as to how this should Offender Register be run, there was a difference between the attorneys-general of the states and territories Senator LUDWIG (2.35 p.m.)—My and the police ministers. I can go further into question is to Senator Ellison, the Minister that. I had a meeting with a state Attor- for Justice and Customs. I draw the minis- ney-General and a state Minister for Police ter’s attention to the 2003-04 CrimTrac an- to broker an agreement between the Standing nual report and the Auditor-General’s audit Committee of Attorneys-General and the report on the implementation of CrimTrac. I Australasian Police Ministers Council. I am ask why last November there was a shortfall not about to divulge confidential discussions, of capital funding for the development of the but attorneys-general and the police minis- Australian national child offender register. ters, who are all state and territory ministers, Can the minister advise whether this capital were trying to come to agreement on how funding shortfall delayed the implementation this register would work. I can tell you that of the register which replaced the national there was no problem at the Commonwealth child sex offender system? Is it not the case level, none at all—we were quite set in what that CrimTrac advised the Auditor-General we wanted from this register—but if the op- that there were insufficient staffing resources position wants to pursue this we can go fur- in the CPRS capability development team to ther into the issues that the Labor govern- progress this report? Was it not also the case ments in the states and territories had inter- that the Commonwealth guaranteed $50 mil- nally about setting up this register. lion for the establishment of CrimTrac under the intergovernmental agreement and, at the Senator LUDWIG—Mr President, I ask time of the last audit, $17.1 million of the a supplementary question. Minister, isn’t it $50 million remained unspent? the case that the ANAO audit report found major irregularities with project manage- Senator ELLISON—The Australian Na- ment, including a lack of policies and project tional Child Offender Register requires the management guidance, an inconsistent appli- cooperation of all jurisdictions and we had cation of the project definition and a lack of hoped to have it in place by the end of June clarity in the roles and responsibilities for the this year. I launched it on 1 September, with project partners? Minister, in light of these the agreement of all states and territories. If criticisms by the Auditor-General, can you Senator Ludwig wants to look at any delay explain to the Senate how your lack of min- with this register, he needs to look at the fact isterial oversight contributed to the delay in that all states and territories, with the excep- implementation of the Australian National tion of New South Wales, have yet to pass Child Offender Register? legislation. CrimTrac has in place the Austra- lian National Child Offender Register—it is Senator ELLISON—There was no lack there, set up and ready to go—but we do of ministerial oversight in the setting up of need legislation in the states and territories. the Australian National Child Offender Reg- ister. It is something that we have been push-

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 71 ing at the federal level for some time now, tion in telecommunications. Despite a lot of and it is a matter which I pursued at police nay-saying from senators opposite, the news ministers’ councils and the Standing Com- on broadband take-up in Australia is very mittee of Attorneys-General. We set up good. The latest data from the Australian CrimTrac with a $50 million capital injec- Competition and Consumer Commission tion, and we always said that the states and shows that the number of broadband Internet territories would have to look at running subscribers increased by 102 per cent to costs into the future because they would be 1,047,800 in the 12 months to June 2004, the recipients of the benefit of a national and the good news continues. The Sydney DNA database, of a national automated fin- Morning Herald reported this morning that gerprint base, a national automated palm Australia has now overtaken Sweden in print base, an Australian National Child Of- broadband home penetration figures, and the fender Register, a possible national register latest Nielsen NetRatings survey shows we for firearms as well as other aspects. Crim- have the fastest growth of the countries sur- Trac is doing a great job. There is no ques- veyed. tion about that. I totally reject that the Com- The figures show the number of Austra- monwealth has been responsible in any way lians with broadband at home has topped 3.3 for the delay of the Australian National Child million—that is, 41 per cent of all home Offender Register. (Time expired) Internet users. Estimates by analyst IDC Telecommunications: Services suggests that at current growth rates we will Senator EGGLESTON (2.41 p.m.)—My have 1.5 million broadband subscribers in question is to the Minister for Communica- Australia by the end of this year. Even more tions, Information Technology and the Arts, exciting is that this exceptional growth in Senator Coonan. Would the minister please broadband access and use is not just happen- advise the Senate how the Howard govern- ing in our cities. I know that Labor does not ment’s commitment to telecommunications care about rural and regional Australia, but is helping to connect rural and regional Aus- this government does. Through targeted gov- tralia to services such as high-speed Internet? ernment funding initiatives such as the $108 Is the minister aware of any alternative poli- million Higher Bandwidth Incentive Scheme cies? or HiBIS, more and more Australians living in rural and regional areas are getting faster Senator COONAN—I thank Senator Internet access. Eggleston for the question and I do note his very keen interest and hard work on the In the last few months I have had the great committee that he chairs in the great state of pleasure of visiting many rural and regional Western Australia with respect to connecting communities across Australia to announce rural and regional services. I know all sena- new broadband services. Broadband is now tors on this side of the chamber are commit- connected or will soon be connected in ted to delivering affordable telecommunica- towns and centres including Walgett, Bourke, tion services to all Australians regardless of Boggabri, Nimmitabel, Warren, Nyngan, where they live. I am pleased to be able to Berridale, Cobargo, Bannockburn, Waurn report today that Australia is experiencing Ponds, Mount Low, Mission Beach and exponential growth in the take-up of broad- Mount Pleasant, in South Australia, just to band services. This is due in no small part to mention some. Wherever I go in rural and the government’s push for greater competi- regional Australia to launch these new ser- vices, the response is very positive. Commu-

CHAMBER 72 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004 nities and businesses are ready to grasp the ble distribution of the fishing entitlements opportunities that broadband Internet access under the government’s Great Barrier Reef can offer. To ensure that there are not pockets Marine Park Representative Areas Program? left behind in our cities, particularly in outer As the minister responsible for both fisheries metropolitan areas, the Howard government and conservation in the coalition govern- has committed $50 million over three years ment, what action does he propose to take in to address broadband black spots in metro- response to that resolution? Was the minister politan areas. involved in any discussions with a represen- Senator Conroy, who is the current oppo- tative of any political party on this issue be- sition spokesperson, should let the Senate fore or during the recent election campaign? know now whether or not he supports Mr If so, who was that person or persons and Stephen Smith’s vision for a Snowy Moun- what was the agreement arrived at during tains scheme for broadband and whether the those discussions? Labor Party have costed such a scheme. This Senator IAN MACDONALD—Whilst I side of the chamber will remember that it have the greatest regard for the Queensland was only the coalition who provided any National Party, I was not at their conference, additional funding for broadband during the I am not aware of their resolutions and cer- election campaign, aside from some vague tainly I would not want to speak for them— rhetoric about improving broadband. True to and I suspect they would not want me to form, there is a lot of rhetoric from Labor but speak for them either. Senator Ian Campbell never any detail about how to achieve it; in has responsibility for the Great Barrier Reef fact, Labor seem to be so wedded to their Marine Park Authority, but as a Queensland telecommunications policies— senator and a senator responsible for fishing Opposition senators interjecting— in Australia, I have quite a bit to do with it. I can say that the Representative Areas Pro- The PRESIDENT—Order! Senator gram is a great step forward for conserva- Coonan, have you completed your answer? tion, preservation and proper management of Senator COONAN—No; I could not the Great Barrier Reef—a world icon—and it hear. In fact, Labor are so wedded to their is really a good initiative. ideas for telecommunications and IT in Aus- We have acknowledged that that particular tralia that any shred of evidence or policy action by the Howard government has disappeared from their web site a week after caused some hurt to the fishing industry and the election because they were so embar- we have made a decision to try to help that rassed about how inadequate it was. This hurt with quite a generous structural adjust- government will continue to provide good ment package—unlike, I might say, the regional and rural telecommunications ser- Queensland government, which has been vices for Australians. making some quite dramatic decisions that Fisheries: Great Barrier Reef Marine impact on fishermen in the Queensland wa- Park ters but is not giving one cent of compensa- Senator WONG (2.45 p.m.)—My ques- tion to those fishermen. The structural ad- tion is to Senator Ian Macdonald, Minister justment package from the Commonwealth is for Fisheries, Forestry and Conservation. very generous. It closed a couple of days Can the minister confirm that the Queen- ago. There have been 584 applications for sland National Party annual conference has some form of assistance and they are being passed a resolution calling for a more equita- processed at the moment. We hope to ensure

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 73 that the money starts flowing to fishermen there are others I am sure you will have them prior to Christmas. in the supplementary question. As for the boundaries, I think Senator Ian Senator WONG—Mr President, I ask a Campbell and the government have made it supplementary question. Minister, you have quite clear that there will be no change to the confirmed that you had one meeting with the boundaries in that particular area. That is Fishing Party. government policy. Senator Ian Macdonald—None! Opposition senators interjecting— Senator WONG—Perhaps you could Senator Ian Campbell—Your policy is to clarify whether that is in fact the case. When tear up the boundaries! will the review of the Representative Areas Senator IAN MACDONALD—As Sena- Program commence? Which department will tor Ian Campbell is indicating to you, the oversee the review—the Department of the Labor Party policy seems to be to tear up Environment and Heritage or the Department those boundaries altogether and leave the of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry? What fishing industry in great uncertainty and will be the criteria used in conducting the those interested in the conservation of the review? Were these criteria part of the pref- reef wondering what might happen. erence agreement between the Queensland National Party and the Fishing Party? Senator Wong, I think you asked me whether I had been spoken to by any particu- Senator IAN MACDONALD—I am sure lar political party prior to the election. In Senator Wong did not listen to my answer at public news releases I did invite the Fishing all. I said neither the Fishing Party nor any Party to come and see me about their pro- other party approached me in relation to that posals. They did not take up that offer so I so I cannot answer that question. There is to was not able to speak to them. No other po- be no review of the Representative Areas litical party apart from my own party dealing Program. I have forgotten what portfolio with our election policies spoke to me about Senator Wong is representing, but if it is any- it. I can indicate to you, Senator Wong, that thing to do with fishing, agriculture or envi- at some time I was in the electorate of Hin- ronment she is way off track. There is no kler with Mr Neville, the excellent National commitment by anyone to review the Repre- Party member for that area. He did get me to sentative Areas Program. The Prime Minister speak to a group of recreational fishermen announced in Townsville that, because the who were very concerned that in their area Great Barrier Reef Marine Park Authority some 74 per cent of the Great Barrier Reef had been in existence for more than 10 years had been locked away. They indicated that and because statutory authorities are usually they were prepared to accept one-third of the reviewed around the 10-year mark, he would reef being locked away but they thought 74 institute a review of GBRMPA. He went on per cent was a bit unfair. I did indicate to to say that he has no particular problem with them that after the election I would approach the authority but it would be reviewed in the Ms Chadwick, the chairman, to discuss that. normal course of events. That has not pro- As I said to them, I thought there was very gressed. When it is I am sure it will be done little likelihood of that being changed, and by Senator Ian Campbell, the responsible that remains my view. I think that has cov- minister. ered all of the questions you asked me. If Senator Ian Campbell—Very responsi- ble!

CHAMBER 74 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004

Senator IAN MACDONALD—The very the whole approach of military operations responsible minister, as he interjects, and as I within Iraq and it was certainly the case once agree. I am quite uncertain as to where Sena- again. tor Wong’s question is coming from. The In relation to the role of Australians, Aus- supplementary question seems quite nonsen- tralia certainly has some personnel within the sical. (Time expired) multinational force headquarters. It is rea- Iraq sonable to assume therefore it had some role Senator NETTLE (2.52 p.m.)—My ques- in planning or incidental support of the op- tion is to Senator Hill, the Minister for De- eration. Australia did not have ADF troops fence. Is the minister aware of Red Cross operating as part of an Australian force estimates that at least 800 civilians have been within the Fallujah operation itself, although killed by the multinational forces military there may well have been a small number of assault on Fallujah? Can the minister explain Australian forces who were assigned to what role Australian defence personnel have forces of our allies who were operating as played in the assault, including in the plan- such within Iraq that could have been en- ning as well as the execution of the attack? gaged in the military operations. Senator HILL—The operation in Fallu- Senator NETTLE—Mr President, I ask a jah obviously is the result of attacks by in- supplementary question. Can the minister surgents and terrorists within Iraq. We have confirm the number of ADF personnel oper- seen many horrible examples of that in re- ating under the control of the US military cent times, particularly of insurgents attack- who were engaged in the military assault in ing Iraqis, and—if at all possible—anyone Fallujah? Could he explain a comment that who is associated with the development of he made on 15 October, when he announced the instruments of a new and free Iraq and the appointment of ADF Major General Mo- also not at all being concerned by the killing lan to the role of Deputy Chief of Staff, Stra- of innocent civilians in the course of their tegic Operations of the Multinational Force attempt to derail efforts to provide freedom in Iraq? At that time, the minister said that and better opportunity for all of the Iraqi Major General Molan would be ‘responsible people. Fallujah was obviously being used as for advising the multinational force general a safe base from which to mount such ac- commander, General Casey, on all aspects tions. There was no alternative but to face up pertaining to the planning and conduct of to the insurgents and terrorists within Fallu- operations, which may range from civil as- jah and thus the operation was launched. It sistance through to conventional war fight- was launched on the authority of the interim ing’. He also said, ‘The restructured head- Prime Minister of Iraq and after he had made quarters will be responsible for security and strenuous efforts to seek a resolution short of anti-insurgency operations in Iraq.’ Can the that by requesting the people of Fallujah who minister explain what role, if any, Major were not involved in this illegal behaviour to General Molan played in the ongoing assault turn over the criminals. With such an opera- on Fallujah? tion there will unfortunately always be Senator HILL—I will seek advice on deaths of some civilians. Every effort has how many Australians may have been serv- been made by the Iraqi and American forces ing in the forces of the United States and involved in the operation to minimise civil- participated in the operation within Fallujah. ian casualties. That has been consistent with I think it would be a very small number. In

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 75 relation to the role of Major General Molan, I am aware of claims that Fox Sports have his current position is Deputy Chief of Staff acquired both the free-to-air and the pay TV for Strategic Operations. He operates within rights to the 2005 Ashes series. However, I the multinational headquarters, and he has have been advised that Fox Sports has ac- some responsibilities therefore in relation to quired only the pay TV rights, which means strategic operational planning. There is no that the free-to-air rights for Australia are secret about that. I indicated in my answer to still available should the free-to-air broad- the honourable senator that a number of Aus- casters wish to purchase them from the Eng- tralian personnel operating within that head- land and Wales Cricket Board. This means quarters would have been involved in the that it is open to the free-to-air broadcasters planning or indirect support of the operation to negotiate with the English cricket board to and such is the case. acquire the free-to-air broadcast rights for Communications: Television Sports this event should they so choose. The acqui- Broadcasts sition of broadcast rights is, I am sure all would agree, a commercial decision for the Senator CONROY (2.58 p.m.)—My relevant broadcasters. They would take into question is to Senator Coonan, the Minister account various factors such as the cost of for Communications, Information Technol- the rights and the network’s programming ogy and the Arts. Is the minister aware of priorities, such as what time it can be shown, reports that, for the first time since 1972, the whether it is going to be held against the gate Ashes cricket tests between Australia and and a number of other issues. England will not be shown on free-to-air television next year? Can the minister con- Ultimately, the government would not as a firm that, if the Ashes series is covered only matter of principle dictate day-to-day deci- on pay TV, three out of four Australian sions on programming which are taken by households will not be able to watch this either the national or commercial broadcast- great sporting contest? Does the government ers. The antisiphoning scheme, the rationale believe that this is acceptable? Given the for which remains an important one—that is, popularity of cricket in this country, will the that as many people as possible can see these government act to ensure that all Australians events—continues to provide free-to-air are able to watch the battle for the Ashes in broadcasters with access to free-to-air rights 2005? to the 2005 Ashes tour. There is no evidence to suggest that the antisiphoning rules are Senator COONAN—I thank Senator being infringed or are otherwise not working Conroy for the question. I am aware of con- in the way they were intended. cerns that have been raised about free-to-air broadcasting of the 2005 Ashes test cricket Senator CONROY—Mr President, I ask series. The current antisiphoning list includes a supplementary question. Has the country’s all cricket test matches involving the senior self-confessed No. 1 cricket tragic, the Prime Australian team. The revised antisyphoning Minister, raised this matter with the minis- list, which protects events taking place be- ter? In light of the threat of popular events tween 2006 and 2010, includes all test such as the Ashes not getting free-to-air cov- matches involving the senior Australian team erage, do you seriously stand by your com- played in Australia or the United Kingdom, ment that you believe that there is no evi- and this includes the Ashes. dence to suggest that the antisiphoning scheme is not working as intended? Have

CHAMBER 76 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004 you approached the ABC, Channel 31 or themselves. I am not going to comment at SBS about taking up these rights? this stage on some of the serious allegations Senator COONAN—I think the only that have been made. I want to deal with tragic person here is Senator Conroy. He ap- some of the serious issues—the real con- pears to not really understand that the com- cerns—that were raised in question time to- mercial television stations are free to acquire day about some of the political activities of the rights. They are still available. Giving The Nationals. Those questions do not ap- advice to the ABC and SBS in relation to pear to have been answered as yet by the programming and editorial matters is some- relevant ministers. There are facts which thing this government would certainly not need to be explained; there are facts that give do. There is no issue about whether or not rise to some concerns about what The Na- the antisiphoning rules are working the way tionals are doing. If it is all above board, they were intended to. There is no infringe- which it all may be, let the ministers explain. ment of the antisiphoning laws. In fact, let the leader or deputy leader of The Nationals explain and clear the air. So far we Federal Election: Member for New have not had sufficient explanation of these England issues. The PRESIDENT (3.02 p.m.)—Senator There are two areas I want to deal with Carr, as part of his question, the first ques- briefly. The first is the question that Senator tion today, asked whether or not another Ian Campbell was unable to answer regard- senator had made a personal explanation. I ing the grant during the federal election would remind the Senate that that is not in campaign of $6 million to the Australian order and that whether or not another senator Equine and Livestock Centre. The issue here has made a personal explanation does not fall is that in 2002 a $3.5 million grant for the within the responsibility of any minister. I equine centre was refused by the Deputy remind senators of that. Prime Minister, who relied then on an inde- Senator Hill—Mr President, I ask that pendent assessment by a Professor Chud- further questions be placed on the Notice leigh which found there were serious con- Paper. cerns about the project’s viability. It seems QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE: strange, given that assessment, that some two TAKE NOTE OF ANSWERS years later we have an even bigger grant be- Answers to Questions ing given to the same centre. There may be very good reasons for that other than the fact Senator WONG (South Australia) (3.03 that it happened during a federal election p.m.)—I move: campaign. I look forward to Senator Ian That the Senate take note of answers given by Campbell’s response, which he indicated he ministers to questions without notice asked by would give after he was briefed on this issue, opposition senators today. as to why there was this reversal of the gov- Haven’t The Nationals done well this week ernment’s position. in the parliament? Liberal senators on the I turn now to the Great Barrier Reef Ma- other side must be shaking their heads and rine Park Authority’s Representative Areas wondering just how much trouble the junior coalition partner can cause in just a few days. Program. There was an interesting set of an- If this continues, they might want more than swers today from Senator Ian Macdonald. He said, ‘Look, there’s no review of the Repre- cigarette paper between The Nationals and sentative Areas Program,’ and indicated as I

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 77 understood it that he had not met with the minister was quite clear that there would be Fishing Party. My question to him goes to no review of the Representative Areas Pro- whether he has actually spoken to Senator gram. Boswell or Senator elect Joyce about that. It So there are a couple of issues that we in seems clear from national newspaper reports the Labor Party say that The Nationals that The Nationals in Queensland have a should respond to about what was promised very clear view about the subject of their in the election campaign and what role The discussions with the Fishing Party and what Nationals had in arranging for those things to was promised to them in return for their occur. I am particularly interested to hear preferences. Whether or not Senator Boswell whether or not a review of fishing rights in and his colleagues can deliver on any such what is a very important conservation area in commitments obviously remains to be seen. I Australia, the Great Barrier Reef Marine refer to an article in the Australian of 27 Oc- Park, was in fact the subject of preference tober, where it is stated: negotiations between the Fishing Party and The Fishing Party has claimed a review was The Nationals. (Time expired) promised by the Nationals in return for its prefer- Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western ences in the election ... Australia—Minister for the Environment and As we all know, those preferences were cru- Heritage) (3.09 p.m.)—The Labor Party’s cial in electing Senator elect Joyce to the indignation over this issue is entirely false sixth Queensland Senate spot. We await and it seeks to draw a veil, a blind or even a some indication from either the relevant min- red herring, to use a fishing analogy, across isters or Senator Boswell to cast light on one of the most disgraceful political back- whether that was in fact the case. If a review flips and pieces of environmental policy in was promised then obviously The Nationals the history of Australia. During the federal have not been able to deliver that, because I election campaign the Australian Labor Party understand from Senator Ian Macdonald’s promised to the Australian people that they answers today that we will not be having a would tear up the plan that delivered historic review of the Representative Areas Program. protection to the Great Barrier Reef; con- We might have a view of the authority, as is firmed it as a multiuse park; ensured that normal, but we are not reviewing the pro- both recreational and commercial fishermen gram. The Nationals are quoted in the same and other users of the park such as tourism article of 27 October as having ‘confirmed operators knew where the boundaries were they “probably” offered a review’. I look and what the uses were; ensured, very impor- forward to hearing from Senator Boswell if tantly, that the unique environmental and that is the case. Did they offer a review and biodiversity features of the reef were pro- was that review important in garnering pref- tected in perpetuity; and moved the protec- erences for Senator elect Joyce? If so, was tion of areas within the reef from, I think, that an appropriate thing to do? Given Sena- around four per cent to close to 34 per cent. tor Ian Macdonald’s answers today it appears It was a massive environmental achievement that it might have been a useful thing to do in and a great credit to two great environment order to get Senator elect Joyce elected to ministers in Australia’s history, Senator this place. But if the minister’s answers to- Robert Hill and Dr David Kemp, who put in day were correct, it does not appear that The place this historic protection for the reef. Nationals have actually been effective in delivering any outcomes on that front. The

CHAMBER 78 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004

The Labor Party during the campaign, in the oil industry or someone got to them and the very small print of their policy—and I said, ‘Hang on, this isn’t a very good policy.’ hope other Labor senators will read this— So quietly but surely, in the fine print, Mr tore up that plan and said that they would Thomson and Mr Latham jettisoned that pol- reopen the protected areas. They did not say icy as well. Again, was there a single word of whether they were going to have a review, criticism from the so-called Australian Con- how they were going to do it or what the cri- servation Foundation? They should be called teria were going to be. They were prepared the ‘Australian Labor Party Foundation’, to jettison the entire multimillion dollar shouldn’t they? That is their policy; the con- structural adjustment package that was put in servation element of it has dropped out. To place to assist fishing and other related busi- conservation organisations I say: cheer the nesses. They were going to throw that entire Liberal Party when we make a good policy structural adjustment package into turmoil. and give us hell when we do not, and do the Luckily, the Queensland population had fig- same to Labor. Labor’s policies on the envi- ured that Labor were not going to get elected ronment were a disgrace. I wondered what so they were not bothered about their policy. Kelvin Thomson was doing for the last 12 But what a shame that organisations like months. What he was doing was taking the the World Wide Fund for Nature, and par- Great Barrier Reef Marine Park protection ticularly the Australian Conservation Foun- and tearing it up. His one big policy was dation, would not criticise Labor for tearing ‘let’s take the marine park out to the eco- up this historic protection. The Australian nomic zone’. He tore that up too and cut Conservation Foundation spent the entire funding to crown of thorns starfish research. election campaign running around criticising What does Senator Wong do? She comes in the coalition. Regardless of what Mr Latham today and turns the guns on Senator Boswell. or Mr Garrett said about policy, or how Senator Boswell has made his position clear. hopeless it was, they came out and supported He supported the coalition policy in all of his them. But when Labor came out and tore up discussions, public and private. I table a the historic protection of the reef and said, press release from Senator Boswell of ‘We’ll reopen the whole thing, tear the plan 25 October reiterating the government’s pol- up and throw it out the window,’ where were icy and making it quite clear that that is what the Australian Conservation Foundation? he said to anyone who asked him. Well done, They stayed in bed that day, I think. That Senator Boswell; thanks for the support. was Labor’s first environmentally disastrous Senator LUDWIG (Queensland) (3.14 policy that went entirely unnoticed by the so- p.m.)—I rise to take note of the answers called conservation groups like the ACF, given by Senator Ellison in respect of Crim- who seem to be far more enthusiastic about Trac. All he did was simply try to sheet home cheering on Mr Latham, Mr Thomson and blame to the states, but unfortunately he has Mr Garrett, regardless of what they say. The been caught out. The CrimTrac report is ACF were missing in action. You wonder worth going back to. At paragraph 3.73 it whether they do care about conservation. says: The other backflip that went unnoticed The ANAO notes that CrimTrac’s link to the was when the Australian Labor Party said 12 AGD is through the Chairman of the BoM— months ago that they were going to extend that is, the board of management of Crim- the marine park out to the economic zone—a Trac— massive increase in the marine park. Clearly,

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 79 and that the agency provides briefings to the de- tion, a lack of policy and project manage- partment, the Minister for Justice and Customs— ment guidance, a project that has been ap- that is, Senator Ellison— proved, a project that has even been ap- or the Australian Government Attorney-General proved without a budget, a lack of clarity in when requested to do so. The ANAO considers the role and responsibility for the project there is a distinction between providing briefings partners, gaps in the project coordination and having in place a framework to elicit support committee’s role as coordinator of projects for action. and a lack of timely provision of project It seems that the minister does not have what management skills development. It is a the ANAO is telling us about explicitly—a managerial problem that CrimTrac is suffer- framework for action. ing from—a lack of direction by this gov- There are a couple of other issues that ernment. Is it any wonder that CrimTrac is have been highlighted in the report on the experiencing delays in delivering outcomes? implementation of CrimTrac, and it is cer- It requires support. It is a good agency and it tainly worth going to each part of it. I am not deserves not to be abandoned by this gov- going to get time today to do that but I might ernment. elsewhere. May I say that CrimTrac is an I am sure that all senators and, indeed, all extremely valuable agency. It allows Com- Australians will agree that it is a terrible state monwealth, state and territory law enforce- of affairs. The minister needs to come to the ment agencies to overcome difficulties in table, sit down with CrimTrac and work jurisdictional data sharing. It is also a rela- through the difficulties. He needs to go to the tively new agency, established in the inter- states, find out what the problems are, re- ests of fighting crime right across our nation. solve them and come back to CrimTrac. That That is why it is absolutely vital that Crim- is his job. He should not sheet it home to Trac has a minister who is prepared to en- CrimTrac or to the states. In fact, it looks as gage with and be willing to give the organi- though CrimTrac has been struggling to de- sation the significant ministerial support and liver outcomes like the national child sex priority that it deserves. But I am sorry to tell offenders register. If the minister were genu- senators here in this chamber that the audit ine in his desire to fight crime, wouldn’t he report contains not just one finding, not just a engage with CrimTrac and become fully couple of findings but a litany of findings aware of these issues as they arose and ad- that together point to the reasons why the dress them one by one, rather than letting implementation of the Australian national them continue to fester away? Yet it seems child offenders register has been delayed. nothing has been done. First of all, it was mooted to start in July, and But there is more. The audit also found that is when they signed off on it. Then it that last November there was a shortfall of was going to start in September, and now it capital funding for the development of the looks as though it may start in January. But Australian national child offenders register. the minister did not confirm it and did not CrimTrac also advised the Auditor-General say, ‘I’ve got a definite start-up date.’ that there were insufficient staffing resources The ANAO audit found the following in the CPRS capability development team to problems with project management, and they progress this project. It seems that at the time are worth going through one by one. There is of the audit the Commonwealth had guaran- not one; there are many. The audit found in- teed $50 million for the establishment of consistent application of projection defini- CrimTrac under the intergovernmental

CHAMBER 80 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004 agency but that $17.1 million of the $50 mil- the amateur fishermen but also has a huge lion still remained unspent. They were not involvement in and respect for the environ- spending the money. They needed to spend ment. We discussed a lot of issues relating to the money but they needed direction from the Great Barrier Reef Marine Park Author- the minister to do that, and the minister has ity and he expressed the need for review. I clearly failed in his task. It is clear from the reiterated that the coalition had that policy, audit that CrimTrac was, and probably still so what was offered to the Fishing Party was is, struggling against the odds to deliver pro- exactly the coalition policy. There was noth- jects, but it is equally clear that the minister ing sinister about it and there were no under- is either unaware of these problems or inca- hand deals. pable of intervening. Indeed, one of the key We discussed the policy, how it would things CrimTrac needs in overcoming the work and whether some of the smaller bait jurisdictional difficulties of dealing with nine and tackle shops would be incorporated in different areas of law is a lead minister who the assessment of paying back some offset to is prepared to take up the fight and sort out the revenue lost. We discussed those issues. the difficulties so that CrimTrac can become But let met say again: there was nothing sin- what it was designed to be—the lead agency. ister and nothing underhand, just two parties (Time expired) who had philosophical nearness to each other Senator BOSWELL (Queensland— and who agreed on many issues—and that is Leader of The Nationals in the Senate) (3.19 the way preferences are normally allocated. p.m.)—I wish to respond to the question You find someone in a political party who is asked by Senator Wong of Senator Ian Mac- the closest to you and then you go and have a donald regarding a more equitable distribu- discussion. But at no time were any induce- tion of the fishing entitlements under the ments made. All that was offered was the government’s Great Barrier Reef Marine coalition policy, which I will read again. It Park Representative Areas Program. Senator says: Wong made some allegations today that I The Coalition will also review the Great Barrier promised a review to the Fishing Party. She Reef Marine Park Authority Act to improve the is perfectly right. I did offer a review of the performance of the Great Barrier Reef Marine Fishing Party, which was exactly the policy Park Authority, its office holders and its account- of the coalition. This was what was offered ability frameworks. to the Fishing Party. I said that we will have That was the review process. It was a review a review of the process. The coalition’s elec- of the process, not a review of the bounda- tion policy says: ries. The Coalition will also review the Great Barrier Senator MOORE (Queensland) (3.22 Reef Marine Park Authority Act to improve the p.m.)—I rise to take note of answers made performance of the Great Barrier Reef Marine this afternoon. In Minister Coonan’s re- Park Authority, its office holders and its account- sponses to several questions about telecom- ability frameworks. munications, she reaffirmed the govern- That was the review that I offered the Fish- ment’s commitment to ‘first-class communi- ing Party. I had a discussion with the Fishing cations for all Australians’. Then we heard Party. I met Kevin Collins, who was a about the alternative measuring level that we chairman of the Fishing Party, and we sat have to ensure that regional and rural Austra- down and had a general discussion. He is a lians have effective communications before person who not only has a great interest in the government can make a decision to sell

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 81

Telstra—that much published and long also call you a hero, but at the moment Sena- promised sale of Telstra. The measuring stick tor elect Joyce is getting the media. In the for that group is adequate telecommunica- Chronicle—that wonderful regional newspa- tions. This is a really interesting contrast. For per—Senator elect Joyce has been talking all Australians the commitment from the about ‘going in to bat for our people’. government seems to be first-class telecom- Obviously, the political dynamics suggest munications, which is something that every- that you have to go to your communities and body in this place must support. But for that give them a reason to understand a whole other important issue that we have been talk- range of things but, in particular, why Telstra ing about for many years in this place, the must be sold. We hope that the evidence that sale of Telstra, the measuring stick has we have received in recent committee hear- changed over the various reviews of Telstra. ings in this place will be discussed in work- It seems now that the measuring stick is not ing out the reason. I remember—and I am up to scratch, appropriate, strong or efficient sure Senator Eggleston remembers the recent but is going to be ‘adequate’. community consultations of the Senate The minister went on to say that our party Communications, Information Technology on this side of the house was ‘long on rheto- and the Arts Committee—people from re- ric but short on detail’. What we have been gional Queensland coming to meetings on asking and continue to ask the minister is: the Sunshine Coast and talking about their can you give us the detail? If ‘adequate’ is despair that their telecommunications were your measure, how then do you measure neither adequate nor up to scratch. One gen- ‘adequate’? It seems to be stumping a lot of tleman sat before our committee and said: people. We have had reviews of telecommu- ‘Why are you people not fixing our tele- nications by this place—we have had the communications? Don’t you understand our ACCC reviews—but what we have not been need?’ This gentleman also publicly pro- able to work out is absolutely what consti- claimed that he had been a long-term Na- tutes adequate telecommunications for Aus- tional Party voter, but he was distressed and tralians. In the recent election, the issue of outraged that he could not have a commit- telecommunications was raised in a number ment that they had this particular issue under of places. People from all parties talked with control. the community, and of course it did not turn We hope that the issue of telecommunica- out to be a major deciding point in the elec- tions is not just passed over, that it will not tion, as we have been told by Senator Bos- just be a numbers game. Certainly, Senator well, but what we do know is that in regional elect Joyce has been making it clear that Queensland people are still deeply concerned when he comes down here there will not be about their telecommunications. They want any automatic guarantee, that he will be here their representatives from all parties to work to represent all the people who actually want out exactly how they can get the best possi- to see a better deal for regional Queensland- ble telecommunications. This is not a recent ers. He will be hoping, as do all of us, that argument; it has been going on for a long we will be able to achieve a successful out- time. The senator elect from Queensland, come. But this comes back to how you en- Barnaby Joyce, has received wonderful pub- sure that there is an effective, strong tele- licity. In my hometown of Toowoomba, the communications process for all Austra- Chronicle has labelled Senator elect Joyce as lians—not just for some. As I have said be- ‘the hero’. I hope, Senator Boswell, that they fore in this place, it really does not matter

CHAMBER 82 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004 whether the people in this place understand ... I just want to say that I completely repudiate the arguments or accept the issues. (Time the member for New England’s allegations of expired) improper inducements offered indirectly by Sena- tor Macdonald and me earlier this year. I would Senator McGAURAN (Victoria) (3.27 make the first point that there was no meeting on p.m.)—One of the commitments Labor made 18 May; I was in Queensland, in Bundaberg, on straight after their crushing defeat at the elec- the evening of the 18th. tion, having heard the message from the Aus- Yet the member for New England claims that tralian people, was that their economic cre- a meeting was held. He went on to say: dentials needed to be lifted before the Aus- My position is quite simple in this matter. I re- tralian public would support them. We are pudiate completely the claims. I do not engage in into the second day of the 41st Parliament corrupt behaviour. So far as I am aware, at all and they have forgotten that commitment times I have maintained what I believe to be both already. The second question time of this the law and the spirit of the law in relation to parliament and they have jumped straight Australia’s electoral matters. I think that matters. into the gutter. They have joined the false I think it is important. I think that people who accusations, smears and innuendoes of the know me know that I think those things are im- member for New England, because that is portant. what they know how to do best. Forget about That was not good enough for Senator Wong trying to establish their economic creden- or the members across the chamber; rather, tials. They are doing what they know how to they prefer to stand with the member for do best. Even without the former Leader of New England. I would back the integrity of the Opposition in the Senate on the front the Deputy Prime Minister and my colleague bench, they still have the talent to join the Senator Macdonald against that of the flush- member for New England in smear and in- faced member for New England any day. He nuendo. Are we to believe, or are we entitled is a brooding member who is simply desper- to believe, that nothing has changed at all ate for attention in this parliament—a lonely, with the Labor Party and that this will be the insignificant Independent. The achievements pattern for the next three years? of the Deputy Prime Minister and my col- Senator Wong tried to be reasonable about league Senator Macdonald far outweigh any- the matter by saying that the Deputy Prime thing the member for New England will do Minister has not adequately answered the for New England or for the people of rural charges. What a load of rubbish! By that and regional Australia. The fact is this matter comment alone, she and those on the other is under investigation by the police, and I side have joined the member for New Eng- know what their conclusion will be. I am land in making a very serious accusation of sure the reason the member for New England corruption against the second highest office decided to walk into this parliament and stir holder in this land. The Deputy Prime Minis- the pot under its protection is that the police ter not only adequately replied in parliament investigation will find these two members of last night to the member for New England’s parliament innocent. Then the heat will be on accusations, but put them to rest—as did my the member for New England. He seeks their colleague Senator Macdonald. I will read to resignations. If the police investigation clears Senator Wong and those opposite what Mr these two—and it will—he ought to resign. Anderson, the Deputy Prime Minister, said Question agreed to. about these grave, serious charges against two men of integrity. He said:

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PERSONAL EXPLANATIONS MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Senator HARRIS (Queensland) (3.32 Sport: Drug Testing p.m.)—I seek leave to make a short state- Senator HILL (South Australia— ment. Minister for Defence) (3.37 p.m.)—by Leave granted. leave—I table the ministerial statement, to- Senator HARRIS—I rise to address an gether with a document entitled Second stage issue that has been brought to my knowl- report to the Australian Sports Commission edge. Yesterday, in raising a matter of public and to Cycling Australia. interest relating to the inquiry into the Lin- Senator LUNDY (Australian Capital Ter- deberg issue and the subsequent destruction ritory) (3.38 p.m.)—by leave—I move: of the Heiner documents, I inadvertently re- That the Senate take note of the statement. ferred to a document that was provided to the I note with great interest that the Minister for committee but which had not been released the Arts and Sport, Senator Kemp, did not for publication. I assure the members of the make it to the chamber, and so Senator Hill committee and the Senate that it was not my was required to table the statement on his intention to breach privilege. My intention behalf. It is not surprising that Senator Kemp was to highlight the gravity of the evidence was keen to avoid being here. The Second that was brought before the committee, per- stage report to the Australian Sports Com- taining to child abuse in that grievance and mission and to Cycling Australia leaves a lot to subsequent child abuse following the of egg on the face of the coalition govern- shredding of the Heiner documents. I unre- ment’s minister for sport. The ministerial servedly apologise to the Senate. statement outlines the final report of Mr Senator BOSWELL (Queensland— Anderson relating to the allegations into dop- Leader of The Nationals in the Senate) (3.34 ing in Australian cycling and offers up a p.m.)—I seek leave to make a brief personal complete whitewash and spin—that the re- explanation as I claim to have been misrep- port has a positive outcome. There are a few resented. lines in the statement, however, which tell Leave granted. me otherwise. Senator BOSWELL—Today’s Austra- The most damning indictment of the coali- lian Financial Review carries a story which tion government’s so-called Tough on Drugs reports me in the following terms: in Sport strategy is the fact that the Anderson He said newly elected Queensland Nationals report advocates a whole series of substan- senator Barnaby Joyce, who has publicly raised tive changes to both the Australian Institute concerns about the Telstra sale, would back the of Sport’s policy, and the Australian Sports government on all motions and bills brought to Commission’s policy, on the handling of the Senate. drugs in sport. The Anderson report’s key I did not say that. That story came out of an recommendation is for an independent sports AAP story. While I asked for a qualification, doping body that has—and I quote: it made that claim and that is obviously ... the power and duty to investigate suspected where the Australian Financial Review got infractions such as substance abuse and to carry the story. The AAP made a correction to that the prosecution of persons against whom evi- story, but the story still ran in the AFR. I did dence is found. not make those statements and I wish to put Why is this so important? This recommenda- that on the record. (Quorum formed) tion implies that it was not possible for an

CHAMBER 84 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004 independent investigation to be carried out Minister, how can it possibly be claimed that on this matter under the auspices of the coa- the coalition government was tough on drugs lition government and its policies. This was in sport when such a comprehensive list of an issue that Labor raised at the time. There activities arising from this independent re- was a cover-up. It took far too long for this view emerges? Surely you must concede that investigation to occur. The issue would never there was a fundamental flaw, that the flaw have come out into the open had Labor not had to be fixed, and that the flaw would not brought it to this chamber—that is a fact. have been fixed had it not been for the Labor We now know that, had we not taken that Party putting these issues into the public action, this issue would never have seen the light to allow for their scrutiny and demand- light of day. These facts would never have ing action. been put on the table. The government would The Labor Party has not let anyone down. not have been forced to appoint an investiga- Back in July we first issued our policy for tor like Mr Anderson to go through the is- the establishment of an independent sports sues, to ensure that there was a police inves- doping ombudsman’s position. Why? Be- tigation follow-up and to bring not only the cause we knew there was a gap in the ability government but the AIS, the Australian of people with a complaint—be they athletes, Sports Commission and other sports in- coaches, family members, or people uncon- volved to account. That is the substance of nected to the sporting community but with the report we are faced with today. That is crucial information—to raise that complaint the substance of the statement that Senator with someone who did not have a vested in- Hill has tabled. It is about the changes that terest. That is why our policy about a sports are now required to take place. Seeing the doping ombudsman was so critically impor- minister could not be bothered coming here tant. What did the government do at the and presenting this statement to the chamber time? They scoffed, and rejected that ap- I think it is worth quoting from part of it: proach—whereas now, with the final Ander- Based on Mr Anderson’s findings, it is fair to say son report before them and egg on their that overall the decisions taken by the ASC and faces, they have come back and conceded CA were reasonable in the circumstances at the that that is exactly what is needed in the Aus- time. His Report includes a range of suggestions tralian sporting landscape and they have is- regarding detection and prevention of doping sued—according to the ministerial state- offences. I have been advised that the AIS Athlete ment—a discussion paper that will make that Scholarship Agreement has been revised to ex- happen at some point. pressly allow searches of rooms, the seizure of goods found in rooms, the search of computers The importance of having an independent provided to AIS Scholarship athletes and the col- investigator in the context of drugs in sport is lection of data found in those computers. The not a new issue; it has been debated for a Agreement has also been amended to provide that long time and, seemingly, resisted with some the Australian Sports Commission can disclose passion by the Australian Sports Commis- personal information on AIS scholarship athletes sion. Again, the evidence in this case is of to relevant organisations. The AIS has also shabby handling by the Australian Sports strengthened its existing policy of prohibiting self-injection by AIS athletes. Commission of investigations into this mat- ter, which led it to resist any government They are the minister’s words in his state- policy—or any weak effort Senator Kemp ment. It is a list of all of the profound weak- may have put forward—to put in place an nesses in the government’s existing policy. independent investigative body.

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The Australian Sports Commission have stage of the Anderson report regarding his had their day, and it is now time for them to investigations into allegations made by Mr be accountable to an independent body. It is French. up to the minister to concede that they have It might be useful at this point to reflect made mistakes. They did not have a ‘tough on what the main findings of Mr Anderson’s on drugs in sports’ policy that was foolproof. report were at that point. Mr Anderson con- The commission is in desperate need of an cluded in his report that he was ‘quite unable overhaul. There is no other way to describe to accept that there were group injecting ses- the action put forward as part of the final sions involving up to six athletes in one report from Mr Anderson: it is an overhaul, it room’. Mr Anderson further stated that he is comprehensive and the detail will show was concerned that the untested allegations that there was mistake after mistake and flaw made by the athlete had been ‘stated in par- after flaw in the handling of this matter. liament and reported in the media to the Based on those very clear facts, no amount great personal prejudice of the athletes con- of shallow political spin, which is clearly cerned’. So much for Senator Lundy’s com- evident in the ministerial statement, is going ments. to take that away. On 6 August 2004, Mr Anderson com- Senator KEMP (Victoria—Minister for pleted a second addendum to the first stage the Arts and Sport) (3.45 p.m.)—The Hon. report which covers further testing for equine Robert Anderson QC was commissioned by growth hormone on the contents of the mate- the Australian Sports Commission (ASC) rials found at AIS Del Monte and which and Cycling Australia (CA) on 24 June 2004 noted that further testing was still to be un- to investigate specific allegations regarding dertaken. doping violations by members of the Austra- On 27 October 2004, Mr Anderson com- lian cycling squad. pleted a sequel to the second addendum re- Mr Anderson’s inquiry was undertaken in port. The sequel to the second addendum two stages. The first stage dealt with the al- report addresses DNA testing and an exami- legations made in writing and oral evidence nation of AIS Del Monte computers. I am by cyclist Mr Mark French before the Court advised that the content of the attachments is of Arbitration for Sport; whether there was addressed in the reports and it is unnecessary any other evidence or information arising to disclose additional personal information from the investigation that may indicate a contained in some of those attachments. breach by any persons of any of relevant I would now like to comment on the key anti-doping policies; and whether there was points of the final Anderson reports. any other evidence or information arising from the investigation that may warrant a If any single phrase elevated this issue person being excluded from further partici- into the public consciousness it was the use pation in relevant programs, teams or events. by some uninformed commentators of the Following the conclusion of an investigation term ‘shooting gallery’ to describe the cir- by the South Australian police, Mr Anderson cumstances at Del Monte. Mr Anderson provided an addendum to finalise the first makes a strong finding that there was no evi- part of his report on 28 July 2004. dence of a ‘shooting gallery’ at Del Monte. As he summarises it ‘there is no evidence of On 29 July 2004, I tabled in parliament a pro-drugs mentality, habitual widespread the main body and addendum of the first

CHAMBER 86 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004 drug use, or of group injecting sessions as made in Parliament, the Australian Sports Com- alleged by Mr French’. mission had commenced the process of appoint- ing an independent investigator specifically to Mr Anderson’s second addendum and se- investigate the French allegations against the quel raise further questions about Mr French other cyclists ... and Mr Djaka, which are now being consid- Senator Lundy—They were sitting on it, ered by the ASC and CA and their legal ad- Rod, and you know. They were sitting on it, visers. I am advised that further action and they were hiding it from you. against both these individuals is in train. Mr Anderson has cleared Shane Kelly, Sean Senator KEMP—Yes, Senator Lundy, Eadie, Graeme Brown and Brett Lancaster, you are sensitive about this because this and any other cyclist of any doping offence quarrels completely with a statement you alleged by Mr French. made to this chamber. You have not read the report closely and, therefore, you stood up Mr Anderson concludes that a computer at once again and misled the chamber. Del Monte was used to search the word ‘EquiGen’ and other products on the Internet. Mr Anderson has found that the independ- He then indicates ‘no other data was discov- ent investigation undertaken by Mr Justin ered of interest to my investigation’. Stanwix was properly resourced and appro- priate to allow for a full and complete inves- It is important to note that the allegations tigation of all matters. Mr Anderson also against the cycling team emanated entirely found that the time taken by Mr Stanwix to from the testimony of only one individual— complete his investigation was reasonable, that is, Mr French. Following Mr Anderson’s particularly given the investigation was con- detailed investigation, these allegations ducted during the Christmas-New Year pe- should no longer tarnish the reputation of our riod. elite cyclists. Mr Anderson also found that Mr Stan- It is clear from the findings of the report wix’s investigation could not be criticised for that there was no cover-up by the ASC and not ordering DNA testing of the injection Cycling Australia. Mr Anderson found the materials found at the Del Monte facility and handling of these matters by the relevant that ‘no blame’ falls on the ASC or CA for organisations was reasonable in the circum- not insisting that DNA testing be conducted stances at the time—which is quite contrary at this time. This is because, at the time of to the views that Senator Lundy has given the Stanwix inquiry, there was no evidence this chamber. suggesting DNA testing was required. In particular, Mr Anderson deals with the In relation to the CAS hearing on Mr comments made in the Senate to the effect French’s doping infractions, Mr Anderson that it was only the raising of this matter in did not think that it was appropriate to clas- the parliament that caused action to be taken. sify the matter as ‘not urgent’. In this in- This again was a comment relied on by stance the lawyers acting on behalf of the Senator Lundy in her statement. Mr Ander- ASC and CA were of the view that it would son dismisses this view as a misconception. not have been appropriate to make an asser- Mr Anderson states in the second stage re- tion to CAS that the matter was urgent, given port: that there was no immediate selection or ... it is clear from the contemporaneous records in event deadline, Mr French himself had not files of the Australian Sports Commission that, qualified for Olympic selection and Mr well before those statements and accusations were

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French was continuing to refuse to identify there should be a body which is quite inde- any other cyclist whom he alleged was in- pendent of the AIS and of the ASC and of the volved in injecting activities. With hindsight, sporting bodies themselves with the power this may have caused an unfortunate delay in and duty to investigate suspected infractions the CAS hearing. such as substance abuse and to carry the It was the allegations made by Mr French prosecution of persons against whom evi- at the CAS hearing and the findings of the dence is found’. arbitrator that demanded that the allegations This government has a very proud track be taken up with the cyclists whom Mr record in the fight against doping in sport. French had accused. Mr Anderson concludes We are proud that our anti-doping programs that this process was initiated expeditiously have helped establish standards for the world after the CAS hearing by the ASC and CA. sporting community. Based on Mr Anderson’s findings, it is fair Let me make the point that the Depart- to say that overall the decisions taken by the ment of Communications, Information Tech- ASC and CA were reasonable in the circum- nology and the Arts and relevant portfolio stances at the time. His report includes a agencies, including the ASC and ASDA, range of suggestions regarding detection and have, for some time, been working on op- prevention of doping offences. I have been tions for investigating doping allegations and advised that the AIS Athlete Scholarship the better management of hearings. There are Agreement has been revised to expressly complex legal and policy issues involved allow searches of rooms, the seizure of here and the government wants to ensure that goods found in rooms, the search of com- Australia gets the best solution for our par- puters provided to AIS scholarship athletes ticular context. The government’s further and the collection of data found in those consideration will address these difficult is- computers. The agreement has also been sues in a way that meets the long-term needs amended to provide that the ASC can dis- of the sports sector. Today I have released a close personal information on AIS scholar- discussion paper for public comment on a ship athletes to relevant organisations. The new Sports Doping Investigation Board. AIS has also strengthened its existing policy This issue was raised in the parliament by of prohibiting self-injection by AIS athletes. the Labor Party. Mr Anderson rejects the Mr Anderson makes comment about the allegations that were made by the Labor intense media and public interest in the mat- Party. The Labor Party decided to use sport ter and how this might have been better han- as a political weapon against the govern- dled. I have been advised that the ASC ment. The Labor Party is the big loser out of worked within the strict constraints of the this report. The individuals who took part in CAS rules, the ASC’s Anti-Doping Policy, this attack on sport and attempted to use the Privacy Act and the laws of defamation, sport as a political weapon I believe have not natural justice and procedural fairness. How- only damaged themselves but also sport. ever it is questionable whether any media They have also damaged this parliament. strategy would have significantly reduced the (Time expired) impact once wide-ranging allegations were Senator FAULKNER (New South Wales raised in the parliament. (3.56 p.m.)—Senator Kemp, in his conclud- For the longer term, the key recommenda- ing remarks—which were different from the tion put forward by Mr Anderson is ‘that circulated ministerial statement—adlibbed a

CHAMBER 88 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004 little at the end there and proceeded to try to haps the minister is just trying to spin the shoot the messenger. How appropriate is it contents of the report, saying that the report that he do that! How appropriate that Senator fully exonerates the minister and the Austra- Kemp should apply an idea from Sophocle’s lian Sports Commission. Just a cursory read- Greek tragedies in an effort to defend behav- ing of the report—and that is the only thing iour on his own part that could have led to a we have been able to do, as senators have Greek tragedy of Olympian proportions for had only the shortest amount of time to look the Australian cycling team and the Austra- at this report because of these extraordinary lian Olympic team! If the minister had had procedures the minister has adopted—shows his way on this issue, our cyclists would the inaccuracy of that spin. have competed in Athens with no investiga- Mr Anderson points to serious concerns tion of these matters. He wanted to ignore with the way these allegations have been the problem. He wanted this problem to go handled—with delays, ineffective investiga- away. We all know it would not have gone tive processes, a lack of DNA testing and a away. Sooner or later, it would have blown lack of follow-up on veterinary chemicals up. and computer tracking. But, most of all, the Just imagine if it had blown up in the minister has pointed to the failures and bun- lead-up to or during the Athens Olympics. gling of himself and of the ASC in handling Just imagine the impact in the international these allegations. How does he do that? He community, in the media, in the press, if it does that through the discussion paper that had happened while our team was competing he has announced he has released today set- in Athens—imagine the impact on the team ting out the substantial changes he intends to and the impact on our international standing. make to the system of investigating drugs in Our reputation on the world stage would sport allegations. If there were no problems, have been traduced. Of course, innocent no delays, no mishandling of evidence—as people would have been unfairly tainted. the minister has just claimed in that extraor- Then again, Mr Jobie Dajka would have dinary speech—then why is the minister competed in Athens—and he did not. And all proposing in his discussion paper such radi- that would have happened as a result of cal changes? Senator Kemp’s gross incompetence. I welcome the changes. They are very I am very concerned that the minister’s ta- much in line with what Senator Lundy, the bling statement does not fully or accurately previous shadow minister for sport, has been reflect the contents of the Anderson report. proposing on behalf of the opposition. The My concerns are highlighted by the minis- Labor Party has supported those propositions ter’s refusal to follow the practices of the for a number of years, and so have many Senate. We had not received a copy of Mr others in the sports community. It is an in- Anderson’s report until the minister was on dictment on Senator Kemp that it has taken his feet. He did not provide an embargoed him so long to get around to doing some- copy prior to the tabling statement. Senator thing about it. The concerns that I have ex- Kemp has set a new record for the Senate— pressed have been expressed by many others quite unprecedented—for a responsible min- in Australian sport. There have been long- ister not to present his own ministerial state- standing concerns about drugs in sport proc- ment. That happened here today in this esses under the administration of Senator chamber. But why was Senator Kemp hiding Kemp. These concerns have been reinforced this report until the very last moment? Per- by the actual contents of the Anderson re-

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 89 port. I am sure that WADA, the World Anti- Senator FAULKNER—Senator Kemp Doping Agency, will closely examine this should be ashamed of his performance. I report given the scathing comments it know the excuses that Senator Kemp gave. made—and particularly those that Mr Pound He and his office spun out in the gallery that made—about Senator Kemp and the conduct Senator Kemp was a poor media performer of his ministerial responsibilities. and a very poor parliamentary performer, but Look at his comments on 7 July. I com- he was a really good minister. That was the mend the AAP story, which stated: spin. That is half right. He is a poor media performer. He is a very poor parliamentary Sport: world doping boss lashes Australia as new case emerges. performer. But he is a very poor minister too. World sport’s top drugs czar today launched a I am not critical of the fact that Senator scathing attack on Australia’s handling of the Kemp was dumped as the Assistant Treas- Mark French cycling affair as evidence emerged urer. I am not critical of the fact that he never of new doping allegations in weightlifting. made it into the Howard cabinet. We know On goes Mr Pound, and I commend his that Mr Howard had to find someone from comments to the Senate. What about Mr Victoria to keep up the quota of ministers Pound’s comments on 7 July 2004 on ABC from that state. Of course Mr Howard would AM? He said: prefer a compliant and incompetent man like The information has been known and available Senator Kemp as opposed to a defiant and since some time last year and it has taken a very, more capable woman like Ms Sharman very long time for this to come to any kind of Stone, who has been overlooked, or the less resolution. Keeping the results of investigations politically correct Mr Petro Georgiou. We secret is not conducive to any public confidence know that is why Senator Kemp has sur- in the process or the sport. vived. No-one should take any notice of this What about Mr Pound, who said on 8 July: effort from Senator Kemp to kill the bearer The World Anti-Doping Agency chief said last of bad news. That is utterly predictable from night he could not understand why Australian him. It is hard to see, I suppose, how he officials had let the matter ‘fester’, saying it had would have done anything else. The argu- taken six months to act on the allegations, and ment that he has put forward is incoherent in demanding the report into the scandal be made the circumstances. I commend the reports. public. The argument he has put is indefensible in Clearing cyclists to compete in Athens ‘was an the light of what has occurred in relation to incredible decision because all it does is leave the Australian cycling team. I believe that more questions than answers’, Mr Pound told the Australian sport and Australian cycling are Australian last night. much better for the public exposure of these But I say that clearing the cyclists who com- important matters. (Time expired) peted in Athens was absolutely essential be- Question agreed to. fore the Games. What a pity it took the re- sponsibility of senators from the Australian COMMITTEES Labor Party to ensure that occurred. What a Register of Committee Reports pity those investigations only took place as a The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—I present result of actions by the opposition. the consolidated register of Senate commit- Senator Kemp—Read the Anderson re- tee reports for the period 1970 to 2004. port. That is not what Anderson said. Ordered that the document be printed.

CHAMBER 90 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004

BUDGET O’Brien, Payne, Ray, Tierney, Wat- Consideration by Legislation Committees son and Webber Additional Information Community Affairs References Commit- tee— Senator McGAURAN (Victoria) (4.06 Appointed— p.m.)—On behalf of the Community Affairs Legislation Committee, I present additional Senators Humphries, Hutchins, Knowles, Lees, Marshall and Moore information received by the committee relat- ing to hearings on the budget estimates for Participating members: Senators 2004-05, volumes 1 and 2. Abetz, Allison, Barnett, Bishop, Carr, Chapman, Colbeck, Coonan, COMMITTEES Crossin, Denman, Eggleston, Evans, Membership Faulkner, Ferguson, Ferris, Forshaw, Greig, Harradine, Lightfoot, Ludwig, The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Order! McGauran, McLucas, Mackay, Ma- The President has received letters from party son, Murray, Nettle, O’Brien, Payne, leaders seeking variations to the membership Tierney, Watson and Webber of certain committees. Economics Legislation Committee— Senator COONAN (New South Wales— Appointed— Minister for Communications, Information Senators Brandis, Chapman, Murray, Technology and the Arts) (4.07 p.m.)—by Stephens, Watson and Webber leave—I move: Participating members: Senators That senators be appointed to committees as Abetz, Boswell, Buckland, George follows: Campbell, Carr, Cherry, Colbeck, Administration of Indigenous Affairs— Conroy, Cook, Coonan, Eggleston, Select Committee— Evans, Faulkner, Ferguson, Ferris, Appointed—Senators Carr, Crossin, Fifield, Forshaw, Harradine, Kirk, Heffernan, Johnston, Moore, Nettle, Knowles, Lightfoot, Ludwig, Lundy, Ridgeway and Scullion Mackay, Marshall, Mason, McGau- ran, O’Brien, Payne, Ray, Ridgeway, Appropriations and Staffing—Standing Sherry, Stott Despoja, Tchen, Tierney Committee— and Wong Appointed—Senators Allison, Boswell, Economics References Committee— Faulkner, Ferris, Heffernan and Ray Appointed— Community Affairs Legislation Commit- tee— Senators Brandis, Chapman, Lundy, Ridgeway, Stephens and Webber Appointed— Participating members: Senators Senators Barnett, Denman, Greig, Abetz, Barnett, Boswell, Buckland, Humphries, Knowles and Marshall George Campbell, Carr, Cherry, Col- Participating members: Senators beck, Conroy, Coonan, Eggleston, Abetz, Allison, Bishop, Boswell, Evans, Faulkner, Ferguson, Ferris, Buckland, Carr, Chapman, Colbeck, Fifield, Forshaw, Harradine, Kirk, Collins, Coonan, Crossin, Eggleston, Knowles, Lightfoot, Ludwig, Mac- Evans, Faulkner, Ferguson, Ferris, kay, Mason, McGauran, Murray, Forshaw, Harradine, Hogg, Payne, Ray, Sherry, Stott Despoja, Lightfoot, Ludwig, Mackay, McLu- Tchen, Tierney, Watson and Wong cas, McGauran, Moore, Nettle,

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Employment, Workplace Relations and son, Moore, Nettle, O’Brien, Ray, Education Legislation Committee— Watson and Wong Appointed— Environment, Communications, Infor- Senators Barnett, Johnston, Marshall, mation Technology and the Arts Refer- Stott Despoja, Tierney and Wong ences Committee— Participating members: Senators Appointed— Abetz, Bartlett, Boswell, Buckland, Senators Bishop, Cherry, Conroy, Carr, Chapman, Cherry, Colbeck, Mackay, Tchen and Tierney Collins, Coonan, Crossin, Eggleston, Participating members: Senators Evans, Faulkner, Ferguson, Fifield, Abetz, Allison, Bolkus, Buckland, Forshaw, Harradine, Humphries, George Campbell, Carr, Chapman, Hutchins, Knowles, Lightfoot, Colbeck, Coonan, Eggleston, Evans, Ludwig, Mackay, Mason, McGauran, Faulkner, Ferguson, Ferris, Harrad- Nettle, O’Brien, Payne, Ray, ine, Humphries, Knowles, Ludwig, Santoro, Sherry, Stephens, Watson Mason, McGauran, Nettle, O’Brien, and Webber Payne, Ray and Watson Employment, Workplace Relations and Finance and Public Administration Leg- Education References Committee— islation Committee— Appointed— Appointed— Senators Barnett, Collins, Crossin, Senators Brandis, George Campbell, Kirk, Stott Despoja and Tierney Forshaw, Heffernan, Mason and Participating members: Senators Murray Abetz, Bartlett, Boswell, Buckland, Participating members: Senators Carr, Chapman, Cherry, Colbeck, Abetz, Carr, Chapman, Colbeck, Coonan, Denman, Eggleston, Evans, Conroy, Coonan, Eggleston, Evans, Faulkner, Ferguson, Ferris, Fifield, Faulkner, Ferguson, Ferris, Fifield, Forshaw, Harradine, Humphries, Harradine, Knowles, Ludwig, Johnston, Knowles, Lightfoot, McGauran, Mackay, Marshall, Ludwig, McGauran, McLucas, Mac- O’Brien, Payne, Ray, Ridgeway, kay, Marshall, Mason, Moore, Nettle, Sherry, Tchen, Tierney and Watson O’Brien, Payne, Ray, Santoro, Sherry, Stephens, Watson, Webber Finance and Public Administration Ref- erences Committee— and Wong Appointed— Environment, Communications, Infor- mation Technology and the Arts Legisla- Senators George Campbell, Forshaw, tion Committee— Heffernan, Moore, Ridgeway and Watson Appointed— Participating members: Senators Senators Allison, Conroy, Eggleston, Abetz, Brandis, Carr, Chapman, Col- Mackay, Santoro and Tchen beck, Conroy, Coonan, Crossin, Participating members: Senators Eggleston, Evans, Faulkner, Fergu- Abetz, Bolkus, Boswell, Boswell, son, Ferris, Fifield, Harradine, George Campbell, Carr, Chapman, Knowles, Ludwig, Lundy, Mackay, Colbeck, Coonan, Evans, Faulkner, Mason, McGauran, Murray, O’Brien, Ferguson, Ferris, Harradine, Heffer- Payne, Ray, Sherry, Tchen and Tier- nan, Humphries, Knowles, Lightfoot, ney Ludwig, McGauran, McLucas, Ma-

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Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Leg- McGauran, McLucas, Mackay, Net- islation Committee— tle, Ray, Sherry, Stephens, Stott De- Appointed— spoja, Tchen, Tierney and Watson Senators Ferguson, Hutchins, Mar- Legal and Constitutional References shall, Payne, Sandy Macdonald and Committee— Ridgeway Appointed— Participating members: Senators Senators Bolkus, Buckland, Greig, Abetz, Bartlett, Bishop, Boswell, Kirk, Payne and Scullion Brandis, Carr, Chapman, Colbeck, Participating members: Senators Conroy, Coonan, Eggleston, Evans, Abetz, Barnett, Bartlett, Bishop, Faulkner, Ferris, Fifield, Forshaw, Brandis, Carr, Chapman, Colbeck, Harradine, Hogg, Johnston, Crossin, Eggleston, Evans, Faulkner, Knowles, Lightfoot, Ludwig, Ferguson, Ferris, Harradine, McGauran, Mackay, Mason, Nettle, Humphries, Knowles, Lightfoot, Ray, Santoro, Stott Despoja, Tchen, Ludwig, McGauran, Mackay, Mason, Tierney and Watson Nettle, Ray, Sherry, Stephens, Stott Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Ref- Despoja, Tchen, Tierney and Watson erences Committee— Library—Standing Committee— Appointed— Appointed—Senators Faulkner, Kirk, Senators Hogg, Hutchins, Johnston, Scullion, Stephens, Tchen and Tierney Sandy Macdonald, Marshall and Privileges—Standing Committee— Ridgeway Appointed—Senators Faulkner, Participating members: Senators Humphries, Johnston, Knowles, Payne, Abetz, Bartlett, Boswell, Brandis, Ray and Sherry Carr, Chapman, Colbeck, Collins, Conroy, Coonan, Denman, Procedure—Standing Committee— Eggleston, Evans, Faulkner, Fergu- Appointed—Senators Allison, son, Ferris, Fifield, Harradine, Eggleston, Ellison, Faulkner, Ferguson Knowles, Lightfoot, Ludwig, and Ray McGauran, Mackay, Mason, Nettle, Publications—Standing Committee— Payne, Ray, Santoro, Stott Despoja, Appointed—Senators Hutchins, Johns- Tchen, Tierney and Watson ton, Kirk, Marshall, Moore, Scullion House—Standing Committee— and Watson Appointed—Senators Carr, Crossin, Regulations and Ordinances—Standing Ferris, Lightfoot and Stephens Committee— Legal and Constitutional Legislation Appointed—Senators Bartlett, Marshall, Committee— Mason, Moore, Santoro and Tchen Appointed— Rural and Regional Affairs and Trans- Senators Bolkus, Greig, Ludwig, port Legislation Committee— Mason, Payne and Scullion Appointed— Participating members: Senators Senators Buckland, Cherry, Ferris, Abetz, Barnett, Bartlett, Bishop, Heffernan, McGauran and Stephens Brandis, Buckland, Carr, Chapman, Participating members: Senators Colbeck, Eggleston, Evans, Faulkner, Abetz, Allison, Bishop, Boswell, Ferguson, Ferris, Harradine, Carr, Chapman, Coonan, Eggleston, Humphries, Knowles, Lightfoot, Evans, Faulkner, Ferguson, Greig,

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 93

Harradine, Hutchins, Knowles, messages have been circulated in the cham- Lightfoot, Ludwig, McLucas, Sandy ber. Macdonald, McGauran, Mackay, Mason, Nettle, Payne, Ray, Santoro, The House of Representatives messages Tchen, Tierney, Watson and Webber read as follows— Rural and Regional Affairs and Trans- Message No. 3, dated 18 November 2004— port References Committee— Parliamentary Joint Committee on the Austra- lian Crime Commission Appointed— Message No. 4, dated 18 November 2004— Senators Buckland, Heffernan, Parliamentary Joint Committee on Corpora- McGauran, O’Brien, Ridgeway and tions and Financial Services Stephens Message No. 5, dated 18 November 2004— Participating members: Senators Joint Standing Committee on Electoral Mat- Abetz, Allison, Boswell, Carr, ters Chapman, Colbeck, Coonan, Crossin, Eggleston, Evans, Faulkner, Message No. 6, dated 18 November 2004— Ferguson, Ferris, Greig, Harradine, Joint Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs, Hutchins, Ludwig, Knowles, Defence and Trade Lightfoot, Mackay, Mason, Sandy Message No. 7, dated 18 November 2004— Macdonald, Nettle, Payne, Ray, Joint Standing Committee on Migration Santoro, Tchen, Tierney, Watson and Message No. 8, dated 18 November 2004— Webber Joint Standing Committee on the National Scrafton Evidence—Select Committee— Capital and External Territories Appointed—Senators Bartlett, Brandis, Message No. 9, dated 18 November 2004— Collins, Faulkner and Ferguson Parliamentary Joint Committee on Native Ti- Scrutiny of Bills—Standing Commit- tle and the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Is- tee— lander Land Fund Appointed—Senators Barnett, Johnston, Message No. 10, dated 18 November 2004— Marshall, Mason, Murray and Ray Joint Standing Committee on Treaties, Selection of Bills—Standing Commit- and transmitting for the concurrence of the Senate tee— the following resolutions: Appointed—Senators Eggleston, Elli- Parliamentary Joint Committee on the Austra- son, Ludwig and Webber lian Crime Commission Senators’ Interests—Standing Commit- That in accordance with section 54 of the tee— Australian Crime Commission Act 2002, matters relating to the powers and proceed- Appointed—Senators Allison, Denman, ings of the Parliamentary Joint Committee Forshaw, Humphries, Kirk, Lightfoot, on the Australian Crime Commission shall McGauran and Webber. be as follows: Question agreed to. (a) That the committee consist of 10 mem- Joint Committees bers, 3 Members of the House of Rep- Establishment resentatives to be nominated by the Government Whip or Whips, 2 Mem- Messages have been received from the bers of the House of Representatives to House of Representatives transmitting for be nominated by the Opposition Whip concurrence resolutions relating to the for- or Whips or by any independent Mem- mation of joint committees. Copies of the ber, 2 Senators to be nominated by the Leader of the Government in the Sen-

CHAMBER 94 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004

ate, 2 Senators to be nominated by the quorum shall comprise 1 Government Leader of the Opposition in the Senate member of either House and 1 non- and 1 Senator to be nominated by any Government member of either House. minority group or groups or independ- (j) That members of the committee who ent Senator or independent Senators. are not members of a subcommittee (b) That every nomination of a member of may participate in the proceedings of the committee be forthwith notified in that subcommittee but shall not vote, writing to the President of the Senate move any motion or be counted for the and the Speaker of the House of Repre- purpose of a quorum. sentatives. (k) That the committee or any subcommit- (c) That the committee elect a Government tee have power to call for witnesses to member as its chair. attend and for documents to be pro- (d) That the committee elect a deputy chair duced. who shall act as chair of the committee (l) That the committee or any subcommit- at any time when the chair is not pre- tee may conduct proceedings in any sent at a meeting of the committee, and place it sees fit. at any time when the chair and deputy (m) That a subcommittee have power to chair are not present at a meeting of the adjourn from time to time and to sit committee the members present shall during any adjournment of the Senate elect another member to act as chair at and the House of Representatives. that meeting. (n) That the committee may report from (e) That, in the event of an equality of time to time. voting, the chair, or the deputy chair (o) That the committee or any subcommit- when acting as chair, have a casting vote. tee have power to consider and make use of the evidence and records of the (f) That 3 members of the committee con- Joint Committees on the National stitute a quorum of the committee, pro- Crime Authority and the Australian vided that in a deliberative meeting the Crime Commission appointed during quorum shall include 1 Government previous Parliaments. member of either House and 1 non- (p) That, in carrying out its duties, the Government member of either House. committee or any subcommittee, en- (g) That the committee have power to ap- sure that the operational methods and point subcommittees consisting of 3 or results of investigations of law en- more of its members and to refer to any forcement agencies, as far as possible, subcommittee any matter which the be protected from disclosure where that committee is empowered to examine. would be against the public interest. (h) That the committee appoint the chair of (q) That the foregoing provisions of this each subcommittee who shall have a resolution, so far as they are inconsis- casting vote only and at any time when tent with the standing orders, have ef- the chair of a subcommittee is not pre- fect notwithstanding anything con- sent at a meeting of the subcommittee tained in the standing orders. the members of the subcommittee pre- sent shall elect another member of that Parliamentary Joint Committee on Corpora- tions and Financial Services subcommittee to act as chair at that meeting. That, in accordance with section 242 of the (i) That the quorum of a subcommittee be Australian Securities and Investments Commission Act 2001, matters relating to 2 members of that subcommittee, pro- vided that in a deliberative meeting the the powers and proceedings of the Parlia-

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 95

mentary Joint Committee on Corporations subcommittee any matter which the and Financial Services shall be as follows: committee is empowered to examine. (a) That the committee consist of 10 mem- (h) That the committee appoint the chair of bers, 3 Members of the House of Rep- each subcommittee who shall have a resentatives to be nominated by the casting vote only, and at any time when Government Whip or Whips, 2 Mem- the chair of a subcommittee is not pre- bers of the House of Representatives to sent at a meeting of a subcommittee the be nominated by the Opposition Whip members of the subcommittee present or Whips or by any independent Mem- shall elect another member of that sub- ber, 2 Senators to be nominated by the committee to act as chair at that meet- Leader of the Government in the Sen- ing. ate, 2 Senators to be nominated by the (i) That the quorum of a subcommittee be Leader of the Opposition in the Senate 2 members of that subcommittee, pro- and 1 Senator to be nominated by any vided that in a deliberative meeting the minority groups or independent Sena- quorum shall comprise 1 Government tors. member of either House and 1 non- (b) That every nomination of a member of Government member of either House. the committee be forthwith notified in (j) That members of the committee who writing to the President of the Senate are not members of a subcommittee and the Speaker of the House of Repre- may participate in the proceedings of sentatives. that subcommittee but shall not vote, (c) That the committee elect a member move any motion or be counted for the nominated by the Government Whips purpose of a quorum. or the Leader of the Government in the (k) That the committee or any subcommit- Senate as its chair. tee have power to call for witnesses to (d) That the committee elect a deputy chair attend and for documents to be pro- who shall act as chair of the committee duced. at any time when the chair is not pre- (l) That the committee or any subcommit- sent at a meeting of the committee, and tee may conduct proceedings at any at any time when the chair and deputy place it sees fit. chair are not present at a meeting of the (m) That a subcommittee have power to committee the members present shall elect another member to act as chair at adjourn from time to time and to sit during any adjournment of the Senate that meeting. and the House of Representatives. (e) That, in the event of the votes on a question before the committee being (n) That the committee may report from time to time. equally divided, the chair, or the deputy chair when acting as chair, have a cast- (o) That the committee have power to con- ing vote. sider and make use of the evidence and (f) That 3 members of the committee con- records of the Joint Committees on Corporations and Financial Services stitute a quorum of the committee, pro- vided that in a deliberative meeting the and Corporations and Securities ap- pointed during previous Parliaments. quorum shall include 1 Government member of either House and 1 non- (p) That the foregoing provisions of this Government member of either House. resolution, so far as they are inconsis- tent with the standing orders, have ef- (g) That the committee have power to ap- point subcommittees consisting of 3 or fect notwithstanding anything con- tained in the standing orders. more of its members and to refer to any

CHAMBER 96 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004

Joint Standing Committee on Electoral Mat- (7) That the committee elect a deputy chair ters who shall act as chair of the committee at (1) That a Joint Standing Committee on any time when the chair is not present at a Electoral Matters be appointed to inquire into meeting of the committee, and at any time and report on such matters relating to elec- when the chair and deputy chair are not pre- toral laws and practices and their administra- sent at a meeting of the committee the mem- tion as may be referred to it by either House bers present shall elect another member to of the Parliament or a Minister. act as chair at that meeting. (2) Annual reports of government depart- (8) That, in the event of an equality of vot- ments and authorities tabled in the House ing, the chair, or the deputy chair when act- shall stand referred to the committee for any ing as chair, have a casting vote. inquiry the committee may wish to make. (9) That 3 members of the committee con- Reports shall stand referred to the committee stitute a quorum of the committee, provided in accordance with a schedule tabled by the that in a deliberative meeting the quorum Speaker to record the areas of responsibility shall include 1 Government member of either of each committee, provided that: House and 1 non-Government member of ei- (a) any question concerning responsibility ther House. for a report or a part of a report shall be (10) That the committee have power to ap- determined by the Speaker; and point subcommittees consisting of 3 or more (b) the period during which an inquiry of its members and to refer to any subcom- concerning an annual report may be mittee any matter which the committee is commenced by a committee shall end empowered to examine. on the day on which the next annual (11) That the committee appoint the chair of report of that Department or authority each subcommittee who shall have a casting is presented to the House. vote only and at any time when the chair of a (3) That the committee consist of 10 mem- subcommittee is not present at a meeting of bers, 3 Members of the House of Representa- the subcommittee the members of the sub- tives to be nominated by the Government committee present shall elect another mem- Whip or Whips, 2 Members of the House of ber of that subcommittee to act as chair at Representatives to be nominated by the Op- that meeting. position Whip or Whips or by any independ- (12) That the quorum of a subcommittee be 2 ent Member, 2 Senators to be nominated by members of that subcommittee, provided that the Leader of the Government in the Senate, in a deliberative meeting the quorum shall 2 Senators to be nominated by the Leader of comprise 1 Government member of either the Opposition in the Senate and 1 Senator to House and 1 non-Government member of ei- be nominated by any minority group or ther House. groups or independent Senator or independ- (13) That members of the committee who are ent Senators. not members of a subcommittee may partici- (4) That every nomination of a member of pate in the proceedings of that subcommittee the committee be forthwith notified in writ- but shall not vote, move any motion or be ing to the President of the Senate and the counted for the purpose of a quorum. Speaker of the House of Representatives. (14) That the committee or any subcommit- (5) That the members of the committee hold tee have power to call for witnesses to attend office as a joint standing committee until the and for documents to be produced. House of Representatives is dissolved or ex- (15) That the committee or any subcommit- pires by effluxion of time. tee may conduct proceedings in any place it (6) That the committee elect a Government sees fit. member as its chair.

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 97

(16) That a subcommittee have power to (i) any question concerning responsibil- adjourn from time to time and to sit during ity for a report or a part of a report any adjournment of the Senate and the House shall be determined by the Speaker; of Representatives. and (17) That the committee may report from (ii) the period during which an inquiry time to time. concerning an annual report may be (18) That the committee or any subcommit- commenced by a committee shall tee have power to consider and make use of: end on the day on which the next annual report of that Department or (a) submissions lodged with the Clerk of authority is presented to the House. the Senate in response to public adver- tisements placed in accordance with the (2) That the committee consist of 32 mem- resolution of the Senate of 26 Novem- bers, 12 Members of the House of Represen- ber 1981 relating to a proposed Joint tatives to be nominated by the Government Select Committee on the Electoral Sys- Whip or Whips, 8 Members of the House of tem, and Representatives to be nominated by the Op- position Whip or Whips or by any independ- (b) the evidence and records of the Joint ent Member, 5 Senators to be nominated by Committees on Electoral Reform and the Leader of the Government in the Senate, Electoral Matters appointed during 5 Senators to be nominated by the Leader of previous Parliaments. the Opposition in the Senate and 2 Senators (19) That the foregoing provisions of this to be nominated by any minority group or resolution, so far as they are inconsistent groups or independent Senator or independ- with the standing orders, have effect notwith- ent Senators. standing anything contained in the standing (3) That every nomination of a member of orders. the committee be forthwith notified in writ- Joint Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs, ing to the President of the Senate and the Defence and Trade Speaker of the House of Representatives. (1) (a) That a Joint Standing Committee (4) That the members of the committee hold on Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade office as a joint committee until the House of be appointed to consider and report on Representatives is dissolved or expires by ef- such matters relating to foreign affairs, fluxion of time. defence and trade as may be referred to (5) That the committee elect a Government it by: member as its chair. (i) either House of the Parliament; (6) That the committee elect a deputy chair (ii) the Minister for Foreign Affairs; who shall act as chair of the committee at (iii) the Minister for Defence; or any time when the chair is not present at a (iv) the Minister for Trade. meeting of the committee and at any time when the chair and deputy chair are not pre- (b) Annual reports of government de- sent at a meeting of the committee the mem- partments and authorities tabled in the bers present shall elect another member to House shall stand referred to the com- act as chair at that meeting. mittee for any inquiry the committee may wish to make. Reports shall stand (7) That in the event of an equality of vot- referred to the committee in accordance ing, the chair, or the deputy chair when act- with a schedule tabled by the Speaker to ing as chair, have a casting vote. record the areas of responsibility of each (8) That 6 members of the committee con- committee, provided that: stitute a quorum of the committee, provided that in a deliberative meeting the quorum shall include 1 Government member of either

CHAMBER 98 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004

House and 1 non-Government member of ei- Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade ap- ther House. pointed during previous Parliaments. (9) That the committee have power to ap- (19) That the foregoing provisions of this point subcommittees consisting of 3 or more resolution, so far as they are inconsistent of its members and to refer to any subcom- with the standing orders, have effect notwith- mittee any matter which the committee is standing anything contained in the standing empowered to examine. orders. (10) That, in addition to the members ap- Joint Standing Committee on Migration pointed pursuant to paragraph (9), the chair (1) (a) That a Joint Standing Committee and deputy chair of the committee be ex offi- on Migration be appointed to inquire cio members of each subcommittee ap- into and report upon: pointed. (i) regulations made or proposed to be (11) That the committee appoint the chair of made under the Migration Act each subcommittee who shall have a casting 1958; vote only, and at any time when the chair of a subcommittee is not present at a meeting of (ii) proposed changes to the Migration Act 1958 and any related acts; and the subcommittee the members of the sub- committee present shall elect another mem- (iii) such other matters relating to mi- ber of that subcommittee to act as chair at gration as may be referred to it by that meeting. the Minister for Immigration and (12) That the quorum of a subcommittee be 2 Multicultural and Indigenous Af- fairs. members of that subcommittee, provided that in a deliberative meeting the quorum shall (b) Annual reports of government de- comprise 1 Government member of either partments and authorities tabled in the House and 1 non-Government member of ei- House shall stand referred to the com- ther House. mittee for any inquiry the committee may wish to make. Reports shall stand (13) That members of the committee who are not members of a subcommittee may partici- referred to the committee in accordance with a schedule tabled by the Speaker to pate in the proceedings of that subcommittee but shall not vote, move any motion or be record the areas of responsibility of each committee, provided that: counted for the purpose of a quorum. (i) any question concerning responsibil- (14) That the committee or any subcommit- tee have power to call for witnesses to attend ity for a report or a part of a report shall be determined by the Speaker; and for documents to be produced. and (15) That the committee or any subcommit- tee may conduct proceedings at any place it (ii) the period during which an inquiry concerning an annual report may be sees fit. commenced by a committee shall (16) That a subcommittee have power to end on the day on which the next adjourn from time to time and to sit during annual report of that Department or any adjournment of the Senate and the House authority is presented to the House. of Representatives. (2) That the committee consist of 10 mem- (17) That the committee may report from bers, 3 Members of the House of Representa- time to time. tives to be nominated by the Government (18) That the committee or any subcommit- Whip or Whips, 3 Members of the House of tee have power to consider and make use of Representatives to be nominated by the Op- the evidence and records of the Joint Com- position Whip or Whips or by any independ- mittees on Foreign Affairs and Defence and ent Member, 2 Senators to be nominated by

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 99

the Leader of the Government in the Senate, (11) That the quorum of a subcommittee be 2 1 Senator to be nominated by the Leader of members of that subcommittee, provided that the Opposition in the Senate and 1 Senator to in a deliberative meeting the quorum shall be nominated by any minority group or comprise 1 Government member of either groups or independent Senator or independ- House and 1 non-Government member of ei- ent Senators. ther House. (3) That every nomination of a member of (12) That members of the committee who are the committee be forthwith notified in writ- not members of a subcommittee may partici- ing to the President of the Senate and the pate in the public proceedings of that sub- Speaker of the House of Representatives. committee but shall not vote, move any mo- (4) That the members of the committee hold tion or be counted for the purpose of a quo- office as a joint standing committee until the rum. House of Representatives is dissolved or ex- (13) That the committee or any subcommit- pires by effluxion of time. tee have power to call for witnesses to attend (5) That the committee elect a Government and for documents to be produced. member as its chair. (14) That the committee or any subcommit- (6) That the committee elect a deputy chair tee may conduct proceedings at any place it who shall act as chair of the committee at sees fit. any time when the chair is not present at a (15) That the committee may report from meeting of the committee, and at any time time to time. when the chair and deputy chair are not pre- (16) That the committee or any subcommit- sent at a meeting of the committee the mem- tee have power to consider and make use of bers present shall elect another member to the evidence and records of the Joint Com- act as chair at that meeting. mittees on Migration Regulations and the (7) That, in the event of an equality of vot- Joint Standing Committees on Migration ap- ing, the chair, or the deputy chair when act- pointed in previous Parliaments. ing as chair, have a casting vote. (17) That the foregoing provisions of this (8) That 3 members of the committee con- resolution, so far as they are inconsistent stitute a quorum of the committee, provided with the standing orders, have effect notwith- that in a deliberative meeting the quorum standing anything contained in the standing shall include 1 Government member of either orders. House and 1 non-Government member of ei- Joint Standing Committee on the National ther House. Capital and External Territories (9) That the committee have power to ap- (1) That a Joint Standing Committee on the point subcommittees consisting of 3 or more National Capital and External Territories be of its members and to refer to any subcom- appointed to inquire into and report on: mittee any matter which the committee is (a) matters coming within the terms of empowered to examine. section 5 of the Parliament Act 1974 as (10) That the committee appoint the chair of may be referred to it by: each subcommittee who shall have a casting (i) either House of the Parliament; or vote only and at any time when the chair of a subcommittee is not present at a meeting of (ii) the Minister responsible for admin- the subcommittee the members of the sub- istering the Parliament Act 1974; or committee present shall elect another mem- (iii) the President of the Senate and the ber of that subcommittee to act as chair at Speaker of the House of Representa- that meeting. tives;

CHAMBER 100 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004

(b) such other matters relating to the par- report of that Department or authority liamentary zone as may be referred to it is presented to the House. by the President of the Senate and the (3) That the committee consist of 12 mem- Speaker of the House of Representa- bers, the Deputy Speaker, 3 Members of the tives; House of Representatives to be nominated by (c) such amendments to the National Capi- the Government Whip or Whips, 2 Members tal Plan as are referred to it by a Minis- of the House of Representatives to be nomi- ter responsible for administering the nated by the Opposition Whip or Whips or Australian Capital Territory (Planning by any independent Member, the Deputy and Land Management) Act 1988; President and Chairman of Committees, 2 (d) such other matters relating to the Na- Senators to be nominated by the Leader of tional Capital as may be referred to it the Government in the Senate, 2 Senators to by: be nominated by the Leader of the Opposi- tion in the Senate and 1 Senator to be nomi- (i) either House of the Parliament; or nated by any minority group or groups or in- (ii) the Minister responsible for admin- dependent Senator or independent Senators. istering the Australian Capital Terri- (4) That every nomination of a member of tory (Self-Government) Act 1988; the committee be forthwith notified in writ- and ing to the Speaker of the House of Represen- (e) such matters relating to Australia’s ter- tatives and the President of the Senate. ritories as may be referred to it by: (5) That the members of the committee hold (i) either House of the Parliament; or office as a joint standing committee until the (ii) the Minister responsible for the ad- House of Representatives is dissolved or ex- ministration of the Territory of Co- pires by effluxion of time. cos (Keeling) Islands; the Territory (6) That the committee elect a Government of Christmas Island; the Coral Sea member as its chair. Islands Territory; the Territory of (7) That the committee elect a deputy chair Ashmore and Cartier Islands; the who shall act as chair of the committee at Australian Antarctic Territory, and any time when the chair is not present at a the Territory of Heard Island and meeting of the committee, and at any time McDonald Islands, and of Com- when the chair and deputy chair are not pre- monwealth responsibilities on Nor- sent at a meeting of the committee the mem- folk Island. bers present shall elect another member to (2) Annual reports of government depart- act as chair at that meeting. ments and authorities tabled in the House (8) That, in the event of an equality of vot- shall stand referred to the committee for any ing, the chair or the deputy chair when acting inquiry the committee may wish to make. as chair, have a casting vote. Reports shall stand referred to the committee in accordance with a schedule tabled by the (9) That 3 members of the committee (of Speaker to record the areas of responsibility whom one is the Deputy President or the of each committee, provided that: Deputy Speaker when matters affecting the parliamentary zone are under consideration) (a) any question concerning responsibility constitute a quorum of the committee, pro- for a report or a part of a report shall be vided that in a deliberative meeting the quo- determined by the Speaker; and rum shall include 1 Government member of (b) the period during which an inquiry either House and 1 non-Government member concerning an annual report may be of either House. commenced by a committee shall end (10) That the committee have power to ap- on the day on which the next annual point subcommittees consisting of 3 or more

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 101

of its members and to refer to any subcom- Infrastructure when sitting as a joint commit- mittee any matter which the committee is tee on matters relating to the Australian empowered to examine. Capital Territory. (11) That the committee appoint the chair of (19) That the foregoing provisions of this each subcommittee who shall have a casting resolution, so far as they are inconsistent vote only and at any time when the chair of a with the standing orders, have effect notwith- subcommittee is not present at a meeting of standing anything contained in the standing the subcommittee the members of the sub- orders. committee present shall elect another mem- Parliamentary Joint Committee on Native Ti- ber of that subcommittee to act as chair at tle and the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Is- that meeting. lander Land Fund (12) That the quorum of a subcommittee be 2 That, in accordance with section 205 of the members of that subcommittee, provided that Native Title Act 1993, matters relating to in a deliberative meeting the quorum shall the powers and proceedings of the Parlia- comprise 1 Government member of either mentary Joint Committee on Native Title House and 1 non-Government member of ei- and the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Is- ther House. lander Land Fund shall be as follows: (13) That members of the committee who are (a) That the committee consist of 10 mem- not members of a subcommittee may partici- bers, 3 Members of the House of Rep- pate in the public proceedings of that sub- resentatives to be nominated by the committee but shall not vote, move any mo- Government Whip or Whips, 2 Mem- tion or be counted for the purpose of a quo- bers of the House of Representatives to rum. be nominated by the Opposition Whip (14) That the committee or any subcommit- or Whips or by any independent Mem- tee have power to call for witnesses to attend ber, 2 Senators to be nominated by the and for documents to be produced. Leader of the Government in the Sen- (15) That the committee or any subcommit- ate, 2 Senators to be nominated by the tee may conduct proceedings at any place it Leader of the Opposition in the Senate sees fit. and 1 Senator to be nominated by any minority groups or independent Sena- (16) That a subcommittee have power to tors. adjourn from time to time and to sit during any adjournment of the Senate and the House (b) That every nomination of a member of of Representatives. the committee be forthwith notified in writing to the President of the Senate (17) That the committee may report from and the Speaker of the House of Repre- time to time. sentatives. (18) That the committee or any subcommit- (c) That the committee elect a Government tee have power to consider and make use of member as its chair. the evidence and records of the Joint Stand- ing Committees on the National Capital and (d) That the committee elect a deputy chair External Territories, the Joint Committees on who shall act as chair of the committee the Australian Capital Territory, the Joint at any time when the chair is not pre- Standing Committees on the New Parliament sent at a meeting of the committee, and House, the Joint Standing Committee on the at any time when the chair and deputy Parliamentary Zone and the Joint Committee chair are not present at a meeting of the on the National Capital appointed during committee the members present shall previous Parliaments and of the House of elect another member to act as chair at Representatives and Senate Standing Com- that meeting. mittees on Transport, Communications and

CHAMBER 102 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004

(e) That, in the event of the votes on a (m) That the committee or any subcommit- question before the committee being tee may conduct proceedings at any equally divided, the chair, or the deputy place it sees fit. chair when acting as chair, have a cast- (n) That a subcommittee have power to ing vote. adjourn from time to time and to sit (f) That 3 members of the committee con- during any adjournment of the Senate stitute a quorum of the committee, pro- and the House of Representatives. vided that in a deliberative meeting the (o) That the committee may report from quorum shall include 1 Government time to time. member of either House and 1 non- (p) That the foregoing provisions of this Government member of either House. resolution, so far as they are inconsis- (g) That the committee have power to ap- tent with the standing orders, have ef- point subcommittees consisting of 3 or fect notwithstanding anything con- more of its members and to refer to any tained in the standing orders. subcommittee any matter which the Joint Standing Committee on Treaties committee is empowered to examine. (1) That a Joint Standing Committee on (h) That the committee appoint the chair of Treaties be appointed to inquire into and re- each subcommittee who shall have a port upon: casting vote only, and at any time when the chair of a subcommittee is not pre- (a) matters arising from treaties and related sent at a meeting of a subcommittee the National Interest Analyses and pro- members of the subcommittee present posed treaty actions presented or shall elect another member of that sub- deemed to be presented to the Parlia- committee to act as chair at that meet- ment; ing. (b) any question relating to a treaty or (i) That the quorum of a subcommittee be other international instrument, whether 2 members of that subcommittee, pro- or not negotiated to completion, re- vided that in a deliberative meeting the ferred to the committee by: quorum shall comprise 1 Government (i) either House of the Parliament, or member of either House and 1 non- (ii) a Minister; and Government member of either House. (c) such other matters as may be referred (j) That members of the committee who to the committee by the Minister for are not members of a subcommittee Foreign Affairs and on such conditions may participate in the proceedings of as the Minister may prescribe. that subcommittee but shall not vote, move any motion or be counted for the (2) That the committee consist of 16 mem- purpose of a quorum. bers, 6 Members of the House of Representa- tives to be nominated by the Government (k) That the committee or any subcommit- Whip or Whips, 3 Members of the House of tee have power to call for witnesses to Representatives to be nominated by the Op- attend and for documents to be pro- position Whip or Whips or by any independ- duced. ent Member, 3 Senators to be nominated by (l) That the committee have power to ex- the Leader of the Government in the Senate, amine and report on such annual and 3 Senators to be nominated by the Leader of related reports as may be referred to it the Opposition in the Senate and 1 Senator to by the President of the Senate or the be nominated by any minority group or Speaker of the House of Representa- groups or independent Senator or independ- tives. ent Senators.

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(3) That every nomination of a member of (12) That the quorum of a subcommittee be 2 the committee be forthwith notified in writ- members of that subcommittee, provided that ing to the President of the Senate and the in a deliberative meeting the quorum shall Speaker of the House of Representatives. include 1 Government member of either (4) That the members of the committee hold House and 1 non-Government member of ei- office as a joint committee until the House of ther House. Representatives is dissolved or expires by ef- (13) That members of the committee who are fluxion of time. not members of a subcommittee may partici- (5) That the committee elect a Government pate in the proceedings of that subcommittee member as its chair. but shall not vote, move any motion or be counted for the purpose of a quorum. (6) That the committee elect a non- Government member as its deputy chair to (14) That the committee or any subcommit- act as chair of the committee at any time tee have power to call for witnesses to attend when the chair is not present at a meeting of and for documents to be produced. the committee and at any time when the chair (15) That the committee or any subcommit- and deputy chair are not present at a meeting tee may conduct proceedings at any place it of the committee the members present shall sees fit. elect another member to act as chair at that (16) That a subcommittee have power to meeting. adjourn from time to time and to sit during (7) That in the event of an equality of vot- any adjournment of the Senate and the House ing, the chair, or the deputy chair when act- of Representatives. ing as chair, have a casting vote. (17) That the committee may report from (8) That 3 members of the committee con- time to time. stitute a quorum of the committee, provided (18) That the committee have power to con- that in a deliberative meeting the quorum sider and make use of the evidence and re- shall include 1 Government member of either cords of the Joint Standing Committees on House and 1 non-Government member of ei- Treaties appointed during previous Parlia- ther House. ments. (9) That the committee have power to ap- (19) That the foregoing provisions of this point not more than 3 subcommittees each resolution, so far as they are inconsistent consisting of 3 or more of its members, and with the standing orders, have effect notwith- to refer to any subcommittee any matter standing anything contained in the standing which the committee is empowered to exam- orders. ine. Ordered that consideration of message (10) That, in addition to the members ap- No. 4 relating to the proposed Parliamentary pointed pursuant to paragraph (9), the chair and deputy chair of the committee be ex offi- Joint Committee on Corporations and Finan- cio members of each subcommittee ap- cial Services be made an order of the day for pointed. the next day of sitting. (11) That the committee appoint the chair of Senator COONAN (New South Wales— each subcommittee who shall have a casting Minister for Communications, Information vote only, and at any time when the chair of a Technology and the Arts) (4.08 p.m.)—by subcommittee is not present at a meeting of leave—I move: the subcommittee the members of the sub- That the Senate concurs with the resolutions of committee present shall elect another mem- the House of Representatives contained in mes- ber of that subcommittee to act as chair at sages nos 3 and 5 to 10 relating to the appoint- that meeting. ment of certain joint committees.

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Question agreed to. help Russell Broadbent get elected by prese- TELSTRA: SERVICES lecting somebody that went out there and Senator CONROY (Victoria) (4.09 campaigned against the sale of Telstra, and it p.m.)—I move: was with the full knowledge and support of both Senator McGauran and Minister That the Senate— McGauran in the other place. That is right. I (a) notes that: can see the blushing from here. If it were not (i) the Government has failed to ensure a red chamber you would be standing out that telecommunications service stan- like a beacon, Senator McGauran. You may dards are up to scratch in rural and re- well nod and look shamefully at the floor as gional Australia, Senator Eggleston looks towards you to find (ii) the chief of the Government’s tele- out whether this is true or not. You may well communications inquiry, Mr Dick look and laugh. Estens, has said that telecommunica- tions services in the bush remain a Labor repeatedly challenged the National ‘shemozzle’, and Party to this debate. Yesterday, what did we (iii) selling Telstra will cost the budget have? Yesterday we had the spectacle of $255 million over the next 4 years; and Senator Boswell coming into this chamber (b) calls on the Government to keep Telstra and claiming a mandate on Telstra. They did in majority public ownership to ensure reli- not want to mention it during the campaign. able telecommunications services for all They misled voters during the campaign. But Australians. now they want to claim they have got a man- During the election campaign neither the date. As we consider the fate of Telstra in Liberal Party nor the National Party wanted this 41st Parliament, it is important to con- to talk about the full privatisation of Telstra. sider what the Nationals were telling their It was the policy they dared not name. You constituents before the election. The Queen- will find no reference to it in any of their sland Nationals President, Mr Bolger, is on policy documents released during the cam- the record as having stated: paign, nor was it mentioned in the major pol- Our policy is Telstra should not be sold. icy speeches of either the Prime Minister or That is pretty straightforward. The president the Deputy Prime Minister. Labor repeatedly of the Queensland National Party said: challenged The Nationals’ members to de- Our policy is Telstra should not be sold. We are bates on Telstra but none had the courage to against any sale ... unless the community tells us take up the offer and explain to their con- ... otherwise. stituents where they stood on the sale. Last July the Queensland Nationals held I see Senator McGauran is on the list to their annual conference in Cairns. Were you speak on this debate and I welcome his par- there perhaps, Senator McGauran? No. At ticipation. Senator McGauran well knows that conference the then Nationals Senate that in a seat that he has a great deal of inter- candidate, Barnaby Joyce, stated: est in down in Gippsland—that is, It is absolutely too early to be talking about sell- McMillan—the National Party went as far as ing all of Telstra. Telstra is a national icon, and if preselecting a candidate who stated publicly you launch yourself as a political party into de- that they would not sell Telstra under any stroying national icons then you will come un- circumstances. Isn’t that right, Senator stuck with the electorate. McGauran? It was a desperate bid to try to

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 105

That is now Senator elect Barnaby Joyce. Of ran—stated that they have been trying to course, that is what he said before he asked obtain a permanent residential phone connec- the people of Queensland to vote for him. tion since the beginning of October. The lat- Today in the Canberra Times he is reported est advice they have received from Telstra is as saying that he will be supporting the gov- that the connection may be delayed until ernment on all bills and motions in the Sen- January. This level of service is completely ate. It looks like ‘Rollover Ron Boswell’ is unacceptable. Perhaps if they said you were about to be joined by ‘Backdown Barnaby’. their son, they might be able to get a phone The Queensland Nationals have served up connection. another senator who talks tough before an The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT election but who will not take on the Liberals (Senator Watson)—Order! Senator Conroy, and stand up for the interests of his constitu- please address your comments through the ents after the poll. That is right; say one thing chair. before the election to garner a few votes but, Senator CONROY—I accept your ad- when it comes to the crunch in here where monishment, Mr Acting Deputy President. you have got to stand up and be counted, you Since the election, we have heard a lot of go missing. tough talk from The Nationals. They have Senator O’Brien—Invertebrates. advanced a number of different propositions Senator CONROY—That is very true, on Telstra in an attempt to wriggle their way Senator O’Brien. The Nationals did not cam- out of the bind that they have got themselves paign on the sale of Telstra because they into. The trouble is that all of these proposi- know that services are nowhere near up to tions have been immediately dismissed out scratch. They also know that once Telstra is of hand by the minister at the table today and privatised there is no mechanism to ensure other government ministers. Plans to spend that service standards will be maintained. up to $5 billion of the proceeds of the Telstra Dick Estens, the chair of the government’s sale on pork-barrelling in Queensland have own regional telecommunications inquiry, is been ruled out by Senator Minchin and the on the record as saying that many services in Treasurer, who have likened the proposals to the bush remain ‘a shemozzle’. This is four selling the family silver. A proposal to struc- years after the government sold 49 per cent turally separate Telstra so that the govern- of Telstra. This is after four years worth of ment retained ownership of the rural network community service obligations and an inves- has been referred to The Nationals’ think tigation which the government needed to try tank, the Page Research Centre. Before the and cover where they are going. This inves- ink was dry on the reference, this proposition tigation has shown that many services in the was killed off by Senator Coonan. Yesterday bush remain ‘a shemozzle’. Even though I she said it was inconsistent with government have only been opposition spokesman for policy. So do not bother trying to dress it up. this portfolio area for a short time I have al- Do not bother trying to make up all of these ready received many letters from people in excuses about how you can now justify sell- rural areas highlighting problems such as ing Telstra because we know what is going long delays in getting faults rectified and on here: the Liberals will not allow The Na- poor Internet services. One family in East tionals to represent their constituents and The Gippsland—a family who you would nor- Nationals will just roll over as that pack of mally claim to represent, Senator McGau- invertebrates that we know they are—as they

CHAMBER 106 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004 demonstrate week in and week out in this voting for a national party. They will say, ‘If chamber. we want a Liberal, we may as well elect a The Deputy Prime Minister has flagged Liberal.’ That is the message that they are siphoning off a portion of the cost of phone giving The Nationals’ members. The Deputy calls to pay for upgrading rural services as Prime Minister said, ‘If we lose any more part of plans to future-proof rural telecom- seats, I’ll resign.’ What happened? Barnaby munications services. But it seems that Sena- Joyce crawls across the line in Queensland tor Minchin has also ruled this out, stating and barely wins his seat to reclaim it from that future governments will have to decide One Nation. The Liberals zoomed away, the extent to which they subsidise rural ser- winning three seats in their own right. The vices. Will Senator McGauran and The Na- Nationals barely got across the line in tionals fight for these propositions? If Sena- Queensland off the back of a shonky promise tor Boswell’s comments are any guide, it to the Fishing Party that they would review seems the battle is already over. Yesterday he fishing rights in the Great Barrier Reef, told the Senate that there was not a cigarette which was immediately dismissed by the paper between the Liberals and The Nation- Liberal Party after the election when it came als on Telstra. The Liberals seem to have to light that this shonky little preference deal mopped up all resistance from the National was done. It did not matter. It was a case of Party within weeks of the election. It is pa- saying one thing before the election and do- thetic. Within weeks The Nationals are wav- ing something else after because ‘those Lib- ing the white flag and saying, ‘We’ll vote for eral Party people just will not let us’. We saw whatever you tell us to vote for. Please stop The Nationals lose Larry Anthony, a minister beating us up.’ All it has taken is a few in the previous government. We saw them weeks and a beating up from Senator lose another seat. As every election goes by, Coonan, for goodness sake. Today’s headline they lose another seat. The sooner you get in the Australian Financial Review says it the message, the sooner you might start win- all: ‘Nat senators to toe line on Telstra’. We ning some seats. are going to make sure that article gets wide It is extremely disappointing that the gov- circulation in Gippsland and Benalla, Sena- ernment has decided to pursue its ideological tor McGauran. obsession with selling Telstra when there are The Nationals are right to be sensitive so many other telecommunications issues about the sale of Telstra. They know it is not that need to be addressed. Just last week the a policy that is supported by rural Australians annual report of the Telecommunications and that after 1 July there will be nowhere Industry Ombudsman was released. The re- for them to hide. If The Nationals want to port shows that consumer complaints about glimpse what the future holds if they sell poor services increased by eight per cent to a Telstra, they only have to look at what hap- record 59,850 last year. Complaints about pened to the Democrats, who sold out their landline faults increased by 21 per cent. voters on the GST. That is exactly what The Complaints about mobile phone connections Nationals are staring at: a slide into oblivion increased by 80 per cent. Complaints about as their voters desert them. More and more Internet connections increased by 158 per seats will fall to the independents. More and cent. more seats will be up for contest. The Liberal In the face of falling standards, one might Party will eat them from behind because ru- think that the government would immedi- ral voters will know that there is no point in ately ask the Australian Communications

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 107

Authority to review the flawed system of drop of rain and Telstra is out there with a self-regulatory codes. This process is so poor mass disruption notice. This has to stop. It is that the consumer groups have refused to not to be used as an excuse for failure to fix take part in the code development process. faults within the time frames. Telstra has Instead, the government have decided to get issued over 100 of these notices so far this straight to work on flogging off Telstra. This year, including at least 20 in the last month. is the government’s response to the litany of In August the minister—the very minister complaints about falling services—‘We’ll sitting over on the other side of the cham- just get on with flogging off Telstra’. This ber—dismissed these concerns, telling the policy will do nothing to improve standards Senate that she was unaware of any evidence and will, in all likelihood, worsen them as a suggesting that Telstra was using outage no- fully privatised Telstra will not make the tices inappropriately. Yet earlier this month necessary investment in infrastructure, par- the Deputy Prime Minister identified the ticularly in rural areas. need to tighten the capacity that telecommu- We have heard a lot from the minister nications carriers had ‘to obtain exemptions about the customer service guarantee and the from their community obligation timetable in protection it is supposed to provide consum- the face of claimed problems with weather’. ers. The CSG requires telecommunication After the election the Deputy Prime Min- companies to fix faults within specified time ister suddenly discovers that that policy has frames or compensate customers. For some failed. It is just amazing that the minister time Labor has been raising concerns that the dismissed the very thing that the Deputy CSG is being rorted by the practice of issu- Prime Minister now says Telstra and others ing mass service disruption notices. These are getting away with. This is a minister that notices absolve carriers from responsibility dismissed this in August, yet in November to meet the CSG. In August the Senate the Deputy Prime Minister says this is a ma- Communications, Information Technology jor cause of problems in regional and rural and the Arts Committee recommended that areas. I just wish they would have a chat the government tighten the CSG. There are some time. I just wish that the Deputy Prime many government senators, including Na- Minister, over the cabinet table, perhaps over tional Party senators, on that committee and a bickie and a cup of coffee before cabinet they said we have got to tighten the CSG. starts, would say, ‘Oh, by the way, Senator The committee called on the government to Coonan, have you noticed how many of ensure that mass service disruption notices these notices Telstra is issuing? Do you think cannot be used by carriers to avoid their ob- it’s a bit of a problem?’ But, no, Senator ligations to properly maintain their networks Coonan just blithely dismisses it because it is and provide an acceptable standard of com- all about the need to sell Telstra. munity service. Senator Coonan—You are such a fool, Too often Telstra has been using bad Stephen. When are you going to get out of weather as an excuse for its failure to fix Melbourne and go into the bush? faults within specified time frames. We have Senator CONROY—Senator Coonan, had a drought. We have been in drought con- the only time you get out of Sydney is to go ditions, as Senator Heffernan regularly ex- to your holiday home on the coast, and we plains to me. We have had a drought across have talked about that a lot previously. the country for years. But in all this rain and Senator Coonan interjecting— bad weather Telstra is out there. We get a

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Senator CONROY—Exactly! She has the ACCC recommended that Telstra be sub- travelled once to the bush and suddenly she ject to an additional form of price control on is an expert! Senator Heffernan, please take line rentals. This is about the government’s her out again. trumped-up policy. The ACCC have come Senator Coonan—I come from the bush. out and said, ‘Oh, dear, we’re going to have to put some more controls on line rentals,’ Senator CONROY—Take her back to because the government have released Tel- where she came from. If the minister is seri- stra from them. They have allowed them to ous about the CSG, she must act to tighten price gouge on line rentals. They have al- the ability of carriers to use bad weather to lowed them to profiteer. They have allowed escape their obligations. Even before Telstra them to make hundreds of millions of dol- has been sold, consumers are being hurt be- lars. To fatten up Telstra to make it more at- cause of the flawed regulatory framework tractive to allow it to be sold is what it is imposed by the government in an attempt to about, and that is what every Australian boost Telstra’s share price. should understand. Will the government have Senator Coonan—You need to go out the courage to take up this recommendation and have a look; you really do. from the ACCC in the face of claims by Senator CONROY—I have read all market analysts that it could adversely im- about your trip. I have read how people de- pact on the sale price? ‘Oh, dear, we’d better cided to take half a day off to come to the not do that. We might upset the sale price. meeting just to make sure you knew how bad Don’t worry about what it’s doing to ordi- the services were. I have read all about it. nary Australians out there. Don’t worry Senator Coonan—It was a hugely pro- about how much they are paying per month. ductive trip. We can’t afford to upset the markets because we are trying to flog Telstra.’ Will the gov- Senator CONROY—It was very produc- ernment’s interest as a vendor take priority tive. She actually met a few people who over the need identified by the ACCC to pro- lived in rural Australia and suddenly discov- tect consumers from Telstra’s market power? ered that the service levels were terrible. It This will be a big test for the minister and actually took her going into the country and the government. Will they just keep fattening being told. I have got people deluging my it up? Will they just keep gouging the de office telling me how bad things are. This facto monopoly of Telstra? Will they allow it government has presided over a so-called to charge as much as it wants just so they can price control regime that has allowed Tel- fatten it up and just so they can get more stra’s standard line rental charges to sky- money for it and not give a damn about how rocket. As Senator Moore noted in question that is impacting on the majority of Austra- time today, line rental charges have risen lians through these increases in line rentals? from $11.65 per month in January 2000 to between $26.95 and $29.95 per month today. Senator EGGLESTON (Western Austra- lia) (4.29 p.m.)—It is interesting that the La- Senator Eggleston—Prices are down 20 bor Party is now apparently showing a great per cent. interest in rural Australia, because it never, Senator Coonan—Yes, prices are down ever did that when it was in government. 20 per cent. Under Labor, in fact less than $40 million Senator CONROY—This is about line was spent over its last four years in govern- rental. In their recent review of the regime, ment on regional Australia. By contrast, the

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 109

Howard government is committed to work- Estens inquiry, is a very real manifestation of ing in partnership with the people in com- the concern the Howard government had to munities of regional Australia and has spent ensure that the problems, such as they were well over $30 billion on specific programs with telecommunications services in regional supporting regional Australia since 1996. Australia, were identified and were fixed up. Senator Conroy talked about shemozzles in The Besley inquiry made a long list of regional telecommunications. recommendations and the Howard govern- Senator Coonan—He raved about ment spent $163.1 million meeting the rec- shemozzles. ommendations to improve services. In the Senator EGGLESTON—As Senator case of Estens, which made 39 recommenda- Coonan says, he raved about shemozzles. As tions, the government responded with a $181 far as shemozzles in regional telecommuni- million package and accepted all of Estens’s cations go, when the Labor Party was in recommendations. As a result, there have government it was content for people in re- been substantial improvements in new infra- gional areas to have to wait months and structure and mobile phone coverage, new months to have their phone connected or connection times have been reduced, all Aus- repaired. People in the most remote areas of tralians now have untimed local call access Australia could wait up to 27 months to have to the Internet, the cost of telecommunica- a new phone line installed. An incredible tions services has declined—in fact, the price time—over two years. of calls has declined by some 20 per cent— and those who live in extended zones now It was left to the Howard government to have access to telephone calls at the untimed introduce consumer safeguards which en- local call rate. They are all pretty incredible sured that people in regional Australia had benefits to regional Australia—hardly a their phone services installed and repaired in shemozzle. reasonable time. As an example of how La- bor neglected people in regional areas, we The Howard government’s regional tele- only need to go to the determination Labor communications initiatives include extending made to end the analog telephone network. untimed local calls access for the first time to They closed down the analog network but the 40,000 customers living in the most re- failed to provide any alternative. It was up to mote areas of Australia. That was a special the Howard government to step in and pro- contract of some $150 million which two vide the CDMA network to replace the ana- companies competed for—Optus and Tel- log network which Labor abruptly discontin- stra—and which Telstra won. There was a ued to the disadvantage of the people of re- $140 million package to support the exten- gional Australia. In fact, it is true to say that sion of mobile phone coverage to 98 per cent no other government has been more commit- of the population. This included extending ted than the Howard government to improv- mobile phone coverage to 132 towns with ing telecommunications services in regional, populations of over 500 and to 55 towns with rural and remote Australia. The Howard gov- populations below 500 people. The Howard ernment has provided more than $1 billion to government has supported near continuous improve communications and information mobile phone coverage on 10,000 kilometres technology infrastructure and services in of national highway and at 62 sites on re- regional Australia. The fact that we set up gional highways. Furthermore, over $52 mil- two inquiries, the Besley inquiry and the lion has been spent for a national communi- cations fund to develop high-speed telecom-

CHAMBER 110 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004 munications networks to support the delivery shire council offices. The government has of health and educational services in regional developed a $142.8 million national broad- Australia—hardly a shemozzle. band strategy to increase the access to and In Western Australia, where I come from, affordability of broadband around Australia. the Howard government has provided fund- This includes $107.8 million for the Higher ing of $7 million to improve CDMA mobile Bandwidth Incentive Scheme, or HiBIS, phone coverage in the south-west of Western which aims to provide people in regional Australia by way of a program known as the Australia with affordable access to broad- Wireless West project. This project was band services at prices comparable to those jointly funded by the federal government, the in the metropolitan areas. I am sure even state government and Telstra, each commit- Senator Lundy would agree that that is a ting $7 million to it. As part of this project, marvellous innovation and excellent pro- 45 new base stations have been installed gram. throughout the South West Land Division of Senator Heffernan—Good on you, Kate! Western Australia from Geraldton in the Senator Lundy—Don’t verbal me. north to Esperance in the south, including Senator McGauran—Wishful thinking. sections of the highway to Kalgoorlie. This means that just about the whole of the south- Senator EGGLESTON—It probably is west division of Western Australia has access wishful thinking because Senator Lundy is a to mobile phone coverage. Again, hardly a little grudging about acknowledging the fan- shemozzle. tastic programs of the Howard government, but I am sure that even she, even grudgingly, Furthermore, during the election the gov- will concede that that is a marvellous pro- ernment announced that it would fund new gram. There are now 10 registered HiBIS mobile phone coverage for remote areas, providers offering affordable broadband ser- which include in Western Australia centres vices in regional Australia under the pro- such as Warmun and Balgo in the Kimberley gram. Under this program, a provider gets a and Cue in the Gascoigne as well as many subsidy for each eligible customer who signs other thinly populated areas of the state. For on. That is a very good incentive. those people who live in areas that do not have terrestrial mobile phone coverage, the A second component of the national Howard government has a program which broadband strategy is the $23.7 million coor- will extend the Satellite Phone Subsidy dinated communications infrastructure fund Scheme so that customers can get a subsidy which funds broadband infrastructure pro- of 80 per cent or $1,500 off the cost of a mo- jects that improve the delivery of health, bile phone handset—a pretty good program education and government services in re- for people living in the most remote parts of gional areas. Not so long ago I went to a Australia, I think you would agree. demonstration of a health video link system in the Kalgoorlie Regional Hospital. This Internet and broadband access are increas- system linked Kalgoorlie to consultants in a ingly important communications tools in the teaching hospital in Perth so that a group of modern world. The Networking the Nation people could actually observe a patient un- program has funded over 1,600 public Inter- dergoing an interview. This means that now net access facilities in regional Australia in patients in Kalgoorlie will not have to go places like libraries, schools and purposely down to Perth quite so often for specialist created Internet cafes in locations such as services. That video link program in Western

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Australia is going to be extended to 56 cen- ship of public utilities—a very old-fashioned tres around the state. Again, one can hardly concept if ever there was one. describe the advent of a program like that as There are a range of consumer and regula- a shemozzle in regional telecommunications. tory safeguards which will remain in place It has to be acknowledged that it is a marvel- under a fully privatised Telstra. These in- lous step forward and a marvellous use of clude the universal service obligation, the modern telecommunications to improve the customer service guarantee, the national re- health services to people in regional Austra- lay service, price controls, untimed local lia. calls, priority assistance for people with life- The third component of the strategy is an threatening medical conditions, the low- $8.4 million program to promote broadband income customer package, the network reli- demand aggregation by funding demand ag- ability framework, the digital data service gregation brokers. In June this year, the gov- obligation, and the Telecommunications In- ernment announced funding of some dustry Ombudsman. The government can $300,000 to engage a broadband demand also impose conditions on Telstra’s licence aggregation broker in the Kalgoorlie-Boulder which, the government has said, would in- region of Western Australia. I am sure that clude a special condition requiring them to similar contracts have been let around the continue to provide services in regional Aus- rest of Australia. Again, that is hardly a tralia. The continuance of all of these regula- shemozzle. tory mechanisms does not depend on the This motion calls for Telstra to remain in government continuing to own Telstra and public ownership. The central position of the they will remain in place when Telstra is Labor Party in telecommunications is to fully privatised. equate ownership of Telstra with control. The Howard government is firmly of the They think that it is only by continuing to view that it is the government’s role to estab- have majority public ownership of Telstra lish an appropriate legislative and regulatory that the government will have the ability to framework to promote a competitive tele- exercise control over it. In short, the Labor communications market and to ensure that Party are labouring under a misapprehension. appropriate consumer safeguards are in There is no way any inexorable link exists place. It is not the government’s role to run a between ownership and control. The existing telecommunications company. That is why regulatory safeguards that apply to Telstra Telstra has a board of directors; that is why it and the government’s ability to continue to has been subject to the Corporations Law regulate Telstra in the public interest will not since 1991—which, interestingly enough, be affected in any way under a fully priva- was when the Labor Party was in office— tised Telstra. This is a fact which is almost meaning that it is required, and has been for universally acknowledged by telecommuni- some time, to operate on a commercial basis. cations industry players. The only people As for Telstra losing $255 million in reve- who do not acknowledge it are the Australian nue over the next four years if it is priva- Labor Party. They seem to believe that it is tised, I would have thought that the more very important for public ownership to be important thing is that, even if that were true, retained to ensure adequate telecommunica- there is no doubt that the government will tions services. One suspects in reality all receive hundreds of millions of dollars in they are expressing is a commitment to the taxation from a fully privatised and success- old 1930s socialist ideology of public owner-

CHAMBER 112 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004 ful Telstra, given the size of the company Senator Lundy—What about line rent- and the huge revenues which it generates. It als? is something of a furphy to talk about a lost Senator EGGLESTON—There has been bonus from a publicly owned company when a 37.1 per cent reduction in the cost of local I am sure an examination will show that the calls. Senator Lundy, that is a very impres- taxation generated from a successful private sive figure, as I am sure you will agree. In corporation will far exceed the bonus that the conclusion, there is no doubt that under the publicly owned company provides to the Howard government telecommunications government. services have undergone a revolution. They It was the Howard government that intro- have been improved and costs have dropped, duced full and open competition to the tele- and there is absolutely no reason whatsoever communications market in 1997. It has been to describe services in this country as a competition which has provided consumers shemozzle. In fact, they should be regarded with choice, driven improvements and en- as an example to the rest of the world of how hancements, encouraged advances in tele- a successful telecommunications service communications infrastructure, provided should be run in a country. There is no case incentives for better services and driven whatsoever for Telstra remaining in public down call costs. In the words of the ACA, hands, and I personally look forward to its the government’s telecommunications re- full sale in the knowledge that telecommuni- forms ‘have led to substantial ongoing bene- cations services throughout Australia will be fits to consumers and small business’. The maintained at existing high levels and im- ACA said: ‘The reforms have resulted in proved by the force of competition, which improved productivity within the telecom- the Howard government has been responsi- munications industry.’ In fact it is estimated ble for introducing to this sector in Australia. that in 2002-03 the output of the telecommu- Senator LUNDY (Australian Capital Ter- nications sector was a whopping 97 per cent ritory) (4.48 p.m.)—It is my pleasure to fol- higher than it would have been had deregula- low Senator Eggleston in this debate so that I tion of the industry not taken place. So de- have the opportunity to verbal him as he ver- regulation can only be said to have been of balled me in saying that somehow I lauded enormous benefit to Australia. the coalition’s programs. Most of them are a Competition has delivered lower call complete farce. Having participated in many prices. According to the Australian Competi- of the inquiries into telecommunications and tion and Consumer Commission, between broadband in this country, Senator Eggleston 1997 and 2002 ‘overall the average price probably has a better idea than most in this paid by consumers for telecommunications place of the devastating state of affairs in services has decreased by 20.1 per cent’. rural and regional telecommunications. That This is an amazing achievement and, again, said, it has been fascinating to see the two- is hardly indicative of a shemozzle in tele- faced approach that The Nationals have been communications services. Overall, the price taking to this issue of Telstra. Their face of fixed to mobile calls has fallen by an av- when inwardly focused on this chamber— erage of 22.7 per cent in the same time, GSM and I presume their own party room—says mobile call costs fell by 24 per cent and the very clearly, ‘We support the privatisation of cost of local calls has declined by 37.1 per Telstra.’ But outside this building and facing cent. their constituency, facing the residents in rural and regional Australia, the face of The

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 113

Nationals says, ‘Shock, horror. We’re going band programs as formal responses to the to work really hard to try to get services up Estens recommendations. What does that to scratch, and no, they are not good enough mean? It means they do not have to be com- yet.’ The Nationals cannot have it both ways. pleted before the sale of Telstra. It means They cannot have a face for this place and a they are not a prerequisite to the services in face for the rest of their constituents when rural and regional Australia being assessed as they are outside of this place; it does not up to scratch. But because this government is work like that and their hypocrisy has been about duping their poor old Nationals col- thoroughly exposed. leagues, it does not really matter. Facts tend The debate about whether or not services not to matter. are up to scratch is a very interesting one, What we know is that the Estens recom- and I find it quite astounding that the Minis- mendations were weak. Any claim that they ter for Communications, Information Tech- are being fulfilled can be ridiculed to the nology and the Arts seems to have embarked extreme because most of the recommenda- upon a new exercise of determining for her- tions made very little change in the bush self whether or not services are up to scratch anyway. I will go into the details shortly. by making a series of regional visits. I say it Certainly the expenditure in the budget pro- is extraordinary because it is true that the grams like HiBIS and CCIF that have been coalition government some time ago deter- promoted as helping to future proof the net- mined that services were up to scratch. They work has got nothing to do with Estens as far have already determined that, and we need to as the political commentary and rhetoric so look no further than comments made by the far are concerned. That means we know that Prime Minister. Also comments made by the broadband is not a prerequisite for the coali- minister representing the minister in Senate tion government’s determination that ser- estimates and certainly comments by the de- vices are up to scratch. This is astounding. It partment in the transcript of those Senate is 2004. We are four years into the 21st cen- estimates all point to the fact that the gov- tury, and the coalition government do not ernment, the coalition government, has al- consider broadband to be an essential tele- ready determined that services are up to communications service—so much so that scratch. This means that what we are now they are not going to insist on its universality observing is a complete furphy. Any notion or on any degree of penetration in rural and that the coalition government is now going to regional areas before they sell off the rest of ask, ‘Gee, are services up to scratch?’ is Telstra—before they determine those ser- completely farcical. vices are up to scratch. What we do know is that programs such It is certainly interesting that on Senator as HiBIS, as discussed by previous senators, Coonan’s farcical tour she went straight back and CCIF are in fact not, according to the to Mr Estens and asked his opinion. The Senate estimates hearings, part of the formal word ‘shemozzle’ is probably going to be Estens response. I note with great interest used quite a bit in this general business de- how misleading Senator Coonan has been bate today. But that is appropriate because I today in citing and quoting the actual budget suspect the minister was trying to give Mr allocations to both the HiBIS and CCIF as Estens another chance to say the right thing somehow being directly linked to Estens. on the record, because in evidence given in The fact is that the government has placed on the previous inquiries into these matters Mr the record that they do not see those broad- Estens was less than complimentary about

CHAMBER 114 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004 the process and procedures to date. In fact, means that everything that this government he said then that they were not up to scratch. says about Telstra, their role in the market So Senator Coonan trots out and says, ‘We’ll and the quality of service is completely com- give you another chance; say it right this promised. They have a conflict of interest— time.’ But, no, the joke is on Senator Coonan that is, the government is more interested in because Mr Estens said again, ‘I’m not play- Telstra’s profit margin and its ability to keep ing your game. I’m not going to play this its share price high enough so that people silly game of the coalition’s and look like a will buy the shares if it is privatised under fool in front of all my mates out in the coun- their agenda. That is the conflict of interest. try and say it’s up to scratch. It’s a shemoz- Senator Coonan—Haven’t you been zle.’ More than anything else it stands as a moved out of this portfolio because you do grave indictment that the very person who not know what you are talking about? authored the report, whom the coalition gov- Senator LUNDY—I will respond to that ernment is trying to hang their privatisation interjection too, Senator Coonan. I know you credentials on, will not come to the party would really like me to be out of this portfo- because he knows it is a joke. He knows it is lio but the fact is that consumer issues are a joke and he is not prepared to toe the line. I always going to be part of telecommunica- acknowledge that and think it is a credit to tions and these issues are always going to be Mr Estens. absolutely critical to the interests of all Aus- Prior to the election, in the Senate cham- tralians, both here in the ACT and around the ber it was the new minister, Senator Coonan, country. I thank Senator Coonan for her can- who actually put on the record what the didness because now it is easy to backtrack whole issue is about here. Senator Coonan and look at the government’s pathetic behav- stated for the first time as a coalition minister iour in their attempt to purport to be caring for communications that the objective of the about competition policy, the regulatory en- coalition government was to fatten up Telstra vironment, the price control regime and the in anticipation of privatisation. Her job, in consumer service guarantee. All these ele- other words, was to ensure that the share ments that the government have paid a great price of Telstra stayed high so the market deal of lip service to have meant very little, conditions would be right for selling it off. I because Telstra’s performance is getting have been arguing for such a long time that worse. As I said the other day, we need to this has been the situation. look no further than the very independent Senator Coonan—You just make things analysis of the Telecommunications Industry up. Ombudsman to see just how bad that per- Senator LUNDY—Senator Coonan, I formance has become. It is not getting better; will respond to your interjection because I it is getting worse. think you should read the Senate Hansard of I would like to go back to the Estens re- your response to that question. You laid it on port because it is important to follow through the line. I already knew about it because it on that, given that it has been held up as the was plain to see but you were the first one to benchmark for what is considered to be up to lay it on the table and I think Australians scratch. There is a particular recommenda- should thank you for that because for the tion that I would like to refer to. This is an first time you conceded the real agenda. issue that I have been going on about for What does that mean for Australians? It quite some time, and very proudly so, be-

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 115 cause if it were not for the work that Labor will accept it without question if we put has done Telstra would still not be telling enough pressure on them.’ How ridiculous is consumers about the existence of pair gain or that? line splitting technology in their network. It The pathetic, slimy out that Telstra have was only through the intervention of a com- used to prevent urgent replacement of these plaint I made to the ACCC that Telstra were insidious pair gain systems—which, as I forced to admit to their consumers—their said, prevent the availability of actual dial customers—that they actually used this tech- tone beyond six calls at any one time—is to nology which in some cases not only blocked say that they do not affect dial-up speed, be- broadband but inhibited dial-up Internet con- cause that is the technical wording of that nection speed. There is one recommendation particular recommendation. So once you are in the Estens review relating to pair gains. online the recommendation is ignored. I Recommendation 4.2 says: wonder if Mr Estens understands how that Telstra should be required to demonstrate that it recommendation was treated. I wonder if Mr has an effective strategy to address any dial-up Estens believes the spirit of that recommen- data speed issues arising from poorly performing dation has been adopted by Telstra. I wonder pair gain systems. if Mr Estens thinks that the government have So one would have expected, from reading any credibility at all given the way they have that recommendation, that the pair gain sys- treated this report. The sad thing is that this tems would have been removed, but the hi- recommendation was misleading. It gave larious thing is that Telstra have now said people the impression that these problems that they will only replace poorly performing were going to be fixed. They were not. You pair gain systems when they break or when cannot help but think that when Telstra vet- they get too congested. Do you know what? ted this little document on behalf of the gov- This is okay by the government. That rec- ernment they had a good giggle about this ommendation has no teeth so the hundreds of one. The recommendation and the response thousands of people, primarily in rural and to it really does make fools of all of the Na- regional Australia, who are affected by quite tional Party members and, sadly, robs Aus- insidious technology called pair gains— tralian telecommunications consumers in particularly the 6/16 type—are not going to rural and regional Australia of any hope of have an improvement to their service. They being removed from these systems which are will never get broadband. In fact, only six of not suitable in the 21st century and not suit- the 16 customers on these technology sys- able if you are using any type of data service tems can get dial tone at any one time. This whatsoever. technology is archaic and, even after recom- I would like to conclude on the issue of mendations from Estens, Telstra are refusing price caps. A report was recently put out on to remove these systems. And the govern- this issue. Not so long ago, it was clear that ment says that that is okay. Is that up to the government was thinking about changes scratch? I think not. It shows that this gov- in price caps. Senator Coonan was trying a ernment is prepared to say, ‘Telstra, whatever defensive manoeuvre on this issue today in you say, we’re not going to worry about it question time. I am sure Telstra were saying because we don’t really care about rural and that they did not need the price caps any- regional customers. We care about our politi- more. I was interested to hear Senator cal agenda and we just need to give a bit of Coonan reasserting the fact that we do need lip service to do over the dopey Nats who them. Senator Coonan and the government

CHAMBER 116 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004 have an opportunity now to respond to some generally is failing. I would like to conclude of the draft recommendations in the review by quoting the ACCC: of Telstra’s price control arrangements. That The ACCC ... considers that, while the inclusion report is nothing but a grave indictment of a of targeted measures to deliver benefits to ... po- system that is not currently working. The tentially disadvantaged consumers has been a recommendations include, amongst other good initiative of the current price control ar- things, staying with the price cap on untimed rangements, the current low-income package— local calls and certainly pursuing new initia- does not always deliver such benefits. In tives with respect to line rentals. I cannot not fact, some consumers may be worse off un- comment on the fact that Senator Eggleston der such packages. What an indictment of all was using all these statistics to say how tele- the spin and rhetoric this government has put communications prices have improved. The forward. Even the low-income packages put glaring one that everyone has felt right forward under this scheme, under its so- around the country was of course the mas- called protections for consumers, have no sive hikes in line rentals. So I was very teeth because it is coming up with less than pleased to see in this draft report a recom- optimal outcomes for consumers. The alter- mendation to have a separate basket, an addi- native for this government, instead of persist- tional price cap control, on line rentals, to ing with this conflicted agenda, is to front up prevent Telstra from continuing to exploit and address things like competition policy their monopoly hold on the local loop cop- and regulatory policy, to accept that its hope- per. They still make a lot of money out of less conflict is unsustainable, to accept that that. the only way to remove that conflict of inter- There are a number of other important est is to get rid of the privatisation agenda recommendations, including that future price and remove its need to fatten up Telstra’s control arrangements should penalise Telstra bottom line, and to take the appropriate where service quality has deteriorated. stance on getting the teeth into the regulatory Wouldn’t that put the wind up Telstra and get and competition policy guidelines. That is them to actually focus on service delivery? the right thing to do. That is what the ACCC We know, because of the Australian tele- think should be done, and they are right. communications network inquiry, how mas- Senator ALLISON (Victoria) (5.05 sively deficient Telstra are in maintaining p.m.)—Telstra provides a range of services their network. This recommendation puts that are absolutely vital to the national secu- forward the prospect that they will certainly rity and economic and social development of not get the treatment they are looking for Australia. Australians are increasingly rely- under price caps. This process would build in ing on e-commerce, e-health and e-banking. incentives, and put pressure on them, to ac- For many businesses, especially small busi- tually maintain the quality of service. nesses, efficient and effective communica- I started on this point, and I will conclude tions systems are absolutely critical. A cost- on it as well: this report from the ACCC effective, reliable communications system is shows that the government programs are fail- especially critical for Australians living in ing across competition policy and regulatory the country—in regional, rural and remote policy. We know why: they have a conflict of areas—where tyranny of distance and lack of interest with the privatisation agenda. But services need to be overcome. We have had also we know that the promise of social pro- three Senate inquiries report to this place in grams and programs to look after consumers the past 18 months, and the outcomes in all

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 117 three very clearly point to the fact that the While the government contends that item 32 sale of Telstra is not in Australia’s best inter- of schedule 1 of the 2003 bill, part 10, ‘Inde- ests, particularly for regions, with faults and pendent reviews of regional telecommunica- services still falling well short of world’s tions’ is a future-proofing mechanism, the best practice. National Farmers Federation argue that the The report of the Senate inquiry into the provision does not guarantee any meaningful full sale of Telstra, tabled in this place on 27 outcome. There are no provisions for a October 2003, found that competition has not mechanism to require implementation of the developed as extensively as generally ex- independent review committee’s recommen- pected after partial competition was intro- dations or for adequate funding. The report duced in 1997 and that various telecommu- of the Senate inquiry into Australia tele- nications markets are not yet effectively communications network, tabled on 5 August competitive; there is market failure and an this year, found that Telstra is underinvesting imbalance in market power; Australian in its repair and upgrading of Australia’s household consumers are still paying too telecommunications network, that the Aus- much for services; services are not equal tralian Telecommunications Authority is fail- between urban Australia and regional and ing to properly oversee the network and that rural Australia; Australian specific research tougher legal requirements are needed on and development is dissipating and networks Telstra to upgrade the performance of its are not being developed and used to their full network. potential; the current regulatory system Telstra’s failure to invest and maintain its needs improving; and there has been no in- network is resulting in unsatisfactory service dependent, authoritative study undertaken to levels in many parts of Australia. Telstra’s examine structural separation, despite being spending on capital investment has fallen recommended by the OECD and required by from $4 billion in 2001 to just $2.9 billion subclause 4(3) of the Competition Principles this year. Its staffing levels have more than Agreement. Of particular concern is that halved since 1996. Not surprisingly, the per- there is no future proofing—to use a phrase centage of faults not cleared by Telstra that has been used by various people— within required time frames increased from especially for regional Australians. It has seven per cent in June 2001 to 14 per cent in also been argued that market forces on their June 2003. The report of the Senate inquiry own can never provide rural Australia with into broadband competition, tabled on 10 the telecommunications services that are re- August this year, found that not enough was quired. However, the National Farmers Fed- being done to ensure that Australia, espe- eration contend that it is the government’s cially regional Australia, will have access to responsibility to ensure that there are appro- a state of the art broadband network. Austra- priate and adequate services in regional and lia is behind other countries in penetration rural Australia. In their submission to the and cost. Access to broadband, a key tool for Senate inquiry into the full privatisation of modern business and commerce and a facili- Telstra the National Farmers Federation tator of e-health and e-education, is still very stipulate: limited and is a contentious issue, especially ... the Government should ... provide targeted for those in the country. The inquiry found government funding necessary to future-proof the that the copper network is at the end of its ongoing provision of equitable telecommunica- effective life, and even Telstra admits that tion services as new technologies emerge. ADSL is interim technology. Countries such

CHAMBER 118 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004 as South Korea have a state of the art net- cent, and the US, which is 46.3 per cent. The work, and the United States and the United review of the Commonwealth government Kingdom have recently committed billions securities market indicated the difficulties of dollars to broadband roll-out. that will result from further reductions in The government’s metro broadband black Commonwealth debt. Maintaining depth and spot program, announced during the election, liquidity within the Commonwealth govern- if implemented, will be a big disappointment ment securities market is necessary for the to the communications industry and the stability of Australia’s financial markets. thousands of small business and home users The Democrats also believe that the gov- who still do not have access to fast and af- ernment has not adequately presented to the fordable broadband. The Democrats think the parliament and the public an accurate analy- ill-targeted initiative demonstrates that the sis of the financial benefits and the costs of government is only concerned about prop- selling the remaining government ownership ping up Telstra’s copper network at the ex- of Telstra. The government’s focus on debt pense of Australia’s economic and social reduction and shareholder value, together future. Like the wasteful HiBIS program, the with its ideological attachment to this idea of metro black spot program will pour money selling off government enterprises, over the into extending the life of the copper wire national security, economic and social devel- network to deliver ADSL, rather than invest- opment of Australia is of great concern to the ing in fibre and wireless infrastructure. Democrats and, we think, to the majority of The committee also concluded that the Australians. The Democrats argue that in its only way to ensure the development of a rush to reduce debt, despite Australia having strongly competitive broadband industry is to one of the lowest national debts in OECD, have a significant change in the structure of this government has not given adequate con- the industry, and made recommendations sideration to the implications of the full pri- accordingly. The government continues to vatisation of a vertically integrated, monopo- ignore the findings of the Senate inquiries listic Telstra and the alternatives. and advice presented to it from high profile There is little evidence around the world regulatory bodies such as the ACCC. Instead that reducing public ownership improves of considering the impact of privatisation on customer outcomes, particularly in markets consumers and competition, the government where the former government telco retains instead focuses on debt reduction and share- strong market dominance. Comparing public holder value. ownership using the OECD’s price for do- The government argues that the sale of mestic phone charges comparator highlights Telstra will improve the financial state of the this relationship. Three of the four countries public sector. However, it is clear that, by with the cheapest phone prices have majority world standards, Australia does not have a publicly owned telcos, while three of the major problem in terms of public sector debt. four with the highest prices have private Indeed recent OECD data show that Austra- ownership rates in excess of 90 per cent. lia’s public sector debt financial liabilities The Democrats believe that, on all key cri- are one of the lowest in the OECD. Austra- teria, the government has still failed to make lia’s 2003 net financial liability was 2.9 per out its case that the sale is justified, whether cent of GDP, compared with the UK, which it be on competition, service, legal or finan- is 33.6 per cent, Canada, which is 34.9 per cial grounds. Every opinion poll shows that,

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 119 at a minimum, more than 60 per cent of the bush and even in the suburbs. The Democrats population is opposed to the full privatisation do not believe that this government won a of Telstra. In September 2003, my colleagues mandate at this election to sell Telstra. Tel- Senator Bartlett and Senator Cherry under- stra barely rated a mention during this cam- took a survey of the people in rural and re- paign. We believe that the majority of Aus- gional Queensland seats, asking them how tralians still oppose the sale of the rest of they felt about the government’s agenda— Telstra. If the government can demonstrate in supported by The Nationals of course—to this place that that is not the case then I en- sell off the rest of Telstra. Eighty per cent of courage them to do so and to do so quickly, the nearly 13,000 responses were opposed to but I doubt that they can. It is not enough just the further sale of Telstra. Four months later, to go to The Nationals and persuade a few a ninemsn poll on 5 February found that 77 members that Telstra must be sold. We need per cent—that is, 26,544 people—agreed that to have demonstrated in this place that the Telstra should be kept in public hands. general public is in favour of such a pro- The Democrats continue to call for posal. Upgraded infrastructure and improved stronger regulation to protect consumers, competition will deliver far better consumer increased competition and regulation to im- outcomes than the flawed privatisation plan prove network reliability. We again call for of the Howard government. the government to meet its obligations under Senator McGAURAN (Victoria) (5.17 the competition principles agreement and to p.m.)—I rise to speak in this general busi- undertake an independent review of struc- ness debate, usually always put down for a tural separation—including consideration of Thursday afternoon, but I do notice a proce- the ACCC’s Emerging market structures in dural change in this parliament. For the first the communications sector report. We call time, the general business debate is on for a comprehensive analysis of Telstra’s broadcast. So Thursday comes alive for the investment and infrastructure to be under- first time. Those who have always treated taken. We again ask that Telstra be directed Thursday as a time to jump the plane and get to increase its investment infrastructure to away, to make any sort of speech they like or meet tougher performance standards and to make any sort of irrelevant and trivial no- national policy objectives. I remind the Sen- tice of motion cannot afford to do that now. I ate that the government is able to direct Tel- welcome the change to Thursday afternoon stra. It chooses not to do so. It tried very hard debates. Now we are on broadcast and peo- to remove that ability in legislation some ple are actually listening, the likes of Senator years ago, but this place required for it to Conroy and Senator Lundy, who often put remain unchanged. We call on the govern- these notices of motion forward on Thurs- ment to set, in consultation with industry, a days—many times not even speaking to 10-year national target for an optic fibre con- them themselves because they have a plane sumer access network, in line again with the to catch, but when they do speak to the no- Democrats broadband proposal. tice of motion it is usually trivial and irrele- These calls reflect the concerns of the vant, just as this one is—may take a greater public and the industry that have come out interest and not be so dismissive of the sorts through Senate inquiries and various reports of motions that they bring to this parliament. on telecommunications in Australia. They They will have to be a little more defined, a reflect the concerns regularly expressed little more serious, because they are being about Telstra on talkback radio, out in the heard on broadcast—the public really is tun-

CHAMBER 120 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004 ing in on this occasion. So this may be the quote Dick Estens as an authority. Of course last time we see the most irrelevant, unnec- he is an authority. His first report was au- essary notices of motion coming forward thoritative, and that is why this government from the opposition, let alone debates. have taken up his 39 recommendations. But What we do have before us is a motion for the Labor Party to come in here and regarding Telstra. It is very hard to believe quote Mr Dick Estens as an argument for that in the first week of parliament after an their side of politics is breathtaking. election the opposition has brought forward a So what we have is a filler. In the first motion regarding Telstra. This is the fourth week of parliament, after a disastrous elec- election our government has gone to with our tion result, we have a filler to end all fillers: Telstra policy and gained the vote and confi- to bring on Telstra—of all the fillers that dence of the people. There have been two could have been brought on! I thought one of independent inquiries and at least two Senate the main missions after Labor’s crushing inquiries—both of them totally stacked, I election defeat was to re-establish their eco- suspect; I think there was an opposition ma- nomic credentials, but they have lost one jority. This is the most scrutinised policy this week already. They cannot afford to lose a government has had and the most debated in day in re-establishing their economic creden- this parliament too. I think it holds the record tials, because they have a Himalayan task for being the most debated legislation—that ahead of them. Why revert to the dud poli- is, T1 and T2, the first tranche and the sec- cies they took to the last four elections? ond tranche sale of Telstra—to go through As for the Democrats, it is no wonder they this parliament. I think it outranks the Native are disappearing fast. I almost feel sorry for Title Bill. This has been the most scrutinised Senator Allison, who is the last of the Mohi- policy, but on each occasion we have had the can leaders of the Democrats. She comes in endorsement of the people. In essence, Sena- here and presents an argument and reads tor Conroy’s motion calls on the government verbatim from a speech as old, I suspect, as to keep Telstra in majority public ownership the government—from 1996 on. I suspect to ensure reliability. He should crosscheck they are the same old arguments. She wanted with Senator Lundy. us to accept a survey that the Democrats had As I understood Senator Lundy’s speech, undertaken in Queensland as authoritative. she seeks 100 per cent government owner- As if we would! It was undertaken by Sena- ship. She wants the government to com- tor Bartlett to begin with, but we are not lis- pletely buy back the 49.9 per cent that we tening to that old hackneyed survey. I have have thus far privatised. That is how I inter- heard it run through the parliament before, preted her speech. Senator O’Brien is to and that is why I think she mentioned an old speak after me. He might be able to untangle speech. the confusion between the two of them. And Senator Allison said that the government, what audacity to come in here and quote Mr in its sale of Telstra, is rushing to reduce Dick Estens. They spent days, if not weeks, debt. Yes, she is right; we are rushing to re- smearing and slandering this man because he duce debt, and we are proud of it. That is was a member of The Nationals, a friend of why the people trusted us at the last election. the Deputy Prime Minister, and he was not I say that because, since 1996, we have going to be unbiased in his report. Now rushed to reduce the government debt of $96 Senator Conroy has the audacity to come in billion which we were left as a legacy. In the here, move a notice of motion on Telstra and

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 121 first budget we brought down as a govern- ard-Anderson government ruled. I happen to ment, we sought to reduce the debt, and we think that Senator Conroy, with his contribu- have successfully brought it down to some- tion today, has also entered that parallel uni- where in the $30 billion mark. And we seek verse, and he is going to be like that for the to reduce it even more, because the benefits next three years. He has learnt nothing from of reducing debt are all there to see. If noth- the previous election; he has gone into de- ing else, Senator Allison should have learnt nial. the lesson of the last election: the reduction I have listened to all the speakers and they of debt puts downward pressure on interest have all gone into denial. By bringing up this rates, brings the budget into surplus and old policy again and by not accepting the therefore gives economic credibility, on judgment of the people and the benefits of which we went to the election. And that is the sale of Telstra 1 and Telstra 2, it is quite the first lesson that Senator Conroy ought to obvious they are absolutely in denial. But I learn: the reduction of debt through the sale will say there is one thing that I have in of assets such as Telstra has a downward common with the previous speakers, because pressure on interest rates. I, too, have stood up in this parliament after a Senator Conroy—You could pay off your fourth defeat in an election—that was in mortgage if you sell your house. 1993—so I know that it is hard to motivate Senator McGAURAN—You do not yourself again. It is hard to get up and run- agree with that? Senator Conroy does not ning. Did we not see that today with the La- think that the reduction of debt has a down- bor Party bringing this filler into the parlia- ward pressure on interest rates, which brings ment? the budget into surplus. I do not know how But the difference between our coalition’s the opposition are ever going to establish fourth defeat in 1993 and the Labor Party’s, their economic credibility, but it is a mission as they are displaying it today, is that we lis- of theirs. They have three years to do it, and tened to the message that was sent by the they have wasted the first week of parlia- electorate. After 1993 we actually changed ment. As I said, this is the worst filler. In many of our policies. What is more, in the fact, listening to Senator Conroy, I think he first parliament after 1993 we sought to sup- has entered that parallel universe that what’s- port the government’s mandate, which was to his-name was talking about—I have forgot- reduce taxes. The only thing is that the then ten the name of the journalist. Senator Con- government, under Prime Minister Keating, roy has entered a parallel universe of denial. did not want to support their own mandate. Senator Patterson interjecting— We were all ready to support the reduction in taxes—the l-a-w law taxes—but, unfortu- Senator McGAURAN—I must be getting nately, the then government were not ready old. to do it. That is the difference. We were Senator Conroy—Don’t try to bail him ready to listen and change and support a out, Kay. mandate. Labor are not. Senator McGAURAN—I am desperately It may be helpful to the opposition if they trying to think of the journalist’s name. He is could just accept some advice. Senator Pat- not a journalist that I admire, may I add. I terson saw many election defeats, and she suspect that that is why his name has slipped has learnt from them. Now she is in the cabi- my mind. But he spoke of a parallel universe net. She has been on both sides of the fence, in which he wished to live while the How-

CHAMBER 122 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004 so she would agree with this helpful advice: policies and I think that it is totally appropri- get out of your state of denial. That is the ate he continues in the vein in which he is first start to credible opposition. There do not speaking. Senator Conroy should be here to seem to be any bounds to your state of de- listen to the whole debate before he calls nial. points of order like that. I tuned into the House of Representatives Senator Conroy—I have actually been today and saw Mr Laurie Ferguson singing here for the contribution. the praises of your Medicare Gold policy. It The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT is still on the books, and it is still being raved (Senator Marshall)—Order! Senator Con- about by the likes of Mr Ferguson. How big roy, I do note that you have been here for a denial could you be in than to bring a Tel- most of that debate. There is no point of or- stra policy forward and to continue to sup- der but I will ask Senator McGauran to come port your Medicare Gold? I say that because back to the issue at hand. that Medicare Gold policy was not believed Senator McGAURAN—I have some by the public. Surely you know that by now. equally fine debaters to follow me in Senator It was not trusted by the public, and it could Heffernan and Senator Ferris, who will take never be financed from your own budget up the other part of the argument that I am figures. It was a complete delusion visited unable to complete today. I will simply say upon you and supported by the media. that The Nationals have always known where That is your problem. You have a leader we have stood on this policy. We have never who is a media fabrication. He is propped up wavered like the Labor Party. You are ideo- by the media and just because the media logically not against privatisation; you are write nice things about them you believe that simply politically pragmatic in being against your policies are worthy to run. But when it it. Because you are in opposition you are comes to ballot box decisions they are never against it. If you were in government you supported. Look at some of the media sup- would be for it, and your record shows that. port you got for Medicare Gold. It ought to The Nationals have no ideological objec- be scrapped. But you think that Malcolm tion to the privatisation of Telstra at all. We Farr, for example, reflected public opinion are pragmatic about it. The people in rural when he said that Mark Latham had saved and regional Australia are pragmatic about it his best policy until last. as long as the services are delivered—and Senator Conroy—Mr Acting Deputy that is what The Nationals are the guardians President, I rise on a point of order. There is of. We do not mind whether it is in govern- a standing order about relevance. I did men- ment or private hands. tion at the beginning of my contribution that Senator O’BRIEN (Tasmania) (5.32 Telstra’s privatisation was the policy that p.m.)—Isn’t it wonderful that we are on they refused to name. Now they will not talk broadcast! We have got the people who sup- about it! I just ask you to draw the attention port The Nationals listening to the contribu- of the speaker to the motion that he is debat- tion of a senator who comes here under the ing. banner of The Nationals saying that a debate Senator Patterson—On the point of or- on telecommunications services in rural and der, Senator Conroy has not been here for the regional Australia is irrelevant. Isn’t that a whole debate. Senator McGauran has talked wonderful position for The Nationals to about Telstra. He is talking about various take? I wanted to do some research on Sena-

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 123 tor McGauran’s National Party credentials. I on a joint coalition ticket. It might be that was at first looking under the wrong heading. 3.51 per cent got him elected instead of Fam- I thought the McGauran party was the party ily First if he was the beneficiary of many that he was representing but, no, it is the Na- preference deals, but I suggest that it would tional Party. not have had him elected to the Senate on Senator Conroy—It is a wholly owned The Nationals’ vote on its own by a long subsidiary in Victoria. Be careful! chalk. Senator O’BRIEN—Yes, a wholly We have been castigated by Senator owned subsidiary it may be. Senator Conroy McGauran about daring to raise the issue of earlier referred to the McMillan candidate, Telstra, and in a side argument he suggests whose name I have discovered is Bridget that because the Labor Party are actually McKenzie. Campaigning as The Nationals prepared to say that we believe Medicare candidate in the seat of McMillan she said Gold is a good policy we are deluding our- that she would oppose the sale of Telstra. It selves. We are not going to, as the Prime was a calculated campaign to deceive the Minister once did, say that we would never, voters of McMillan to enable preferences to ever pursue a policy that we believe in and be delivered to the coalition. then return to the parliament later and pursue it when we attain government. We are actu- Let us talk about principles. It is a contra- ally going to be honest with the electorate. diction in terms if you are talking about prin- We are not going to say never, ever Medicare ciples and The Nationals. Senator McGauran Gold and then return to the policy later on, as comes here representing The Nationals, hav- the coalition did with the GST. We are being ing been elected on a joint Liberal Party and honest with the people and, if that is some- The Nationals ticket in the state of Victoria. I thing that Senator McGauran has a problem wanted to see how The Nationals had per- with, I suspect he should go back and talk to formed in Victoria to get an idea of what sort the 3.5 per cent of electors in Victoria who of mandate Senator McGauran actually had. might support The Nationals to see whether We cannot ascertain that. I am not going to they support that standard. I do not think it is be so cruel as to say that the .25 of a per cent a particularly acceptable one. vote that he received personally would be reflective of The Nationals’ vote in Victoria. I want to thank Senator Conroy for com- An ungenerous person might suggest that mencing a debate on rural and regional Aus- that was the level of his support. That is the tralia, particularly about services— vote that he actually received, but I am pre- telecommunications services at that—by dis- pared to concede that the best possible re- cussing the standard, or lack of it, that rural flection of The Nationals’ vote in Victoria is and regional Australians enjoy. I would have that which was received in the House of thought that these days it would be pretty Representatives. I think that is a reasonable clear that it is only the Labor Party that will proposition. initiate a discussion about regional services in this place. That once great institution, The I looked it up on the AEC web site be- Nationals, used to be a standard-bearer for its cause I thought it might be relevant to this constituency. Its representatives used to put debate. It was 3.51 per cent. It was a swing the interests of the party’s rural and regional of 0.4 of a per cent. So they are coming back constituency above other considerations. It from the absolute depths of despair. Senator used to care about the levels of telecommu- McGauran was elected here because he was nications and other services beyond the cit-

CHAMBER 124 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004 ies. But no more. That is not the standard of plantation forestry inquiry, but I will not em- The Nationals. The transformation of The barrass him by talking about that. Nationals from the voice of regional Austra- Senator McGauran interjecting— lia to a party that could not care less about Senator O’BRIEN—Yes, you did love it. Australians living outside our major cities is You were really enjoying it. I will go back to complete—a function of The Nationals’ Telstra. I was trying to enliven the debate senators, frankly, who live and work at the because Senator McGauran has given us Paris end of Collins Street rather than in re- such great material to work with. Senator gional Australia. Senator elect Barnaby Conroy has given me a copy of an article Joyce is not contemplating the location of his from the Age dated 25 September about office in Gympie, in St George or in Mount Bridget McKenzie. The article says: Isa; he is contemplating that his office will be located on the Gold Coast—a million Bridget McKenzie is not your usual National miles from rural and regional Australia. Party candidate. She is bright, focused and will- ing to push the policy boundaries in ways that Senator McGauran—Good National would make any ALP candidate distinctly envi- Party country, though. ous, even nervous. Senator O’BRIEN—It is a good National Take her views on the sale of Telstra. Without a Party area, says Senator McGauran. Yes, if hint of qualification she says she is totally op- you like going to the beach, enjoy the Gold posed to any further sale of the telecommunica- Coast racetrack and like getting out into tions conglomerate. those fields around Broadbeach. Have you Senator Wong—That is a very big ciga- been there recently, Senator McGauran? I rette paper. cannot see any rural transactions occurring Senator O’BRIEN—A cigarette paper, there. This is the new Nationals. We are go- yes! ing to see this beneficiary of an actual reduc- Senator Conroy—Keep going. It gets tion in The Nationals’ vote in Queensland, better. because their vote went down this time. They won the seat but their primary vote went Senator O’BRIEN—Senator Conroy en- down. This is where this representative of courages me. The article goes on to quote Ms rural and regional Australia will set up office McKenzie, who said: to serve that constituency. I thought people I was talking on the phone to a minister when the were elected to this place to serve their con- line dropped out. When we got reconnected I stituency. But Mr Barnaby Joyce is going to shouted down the line, ‘No sale of Telstra!’ serve his constituency around the Gold He said, ‘OK, OK, I hear you. Coast. The article continues: It is often said that the Labor Party repre- Ms McKenzie laughs when she tells the story, but sentatives in this place are all based in the she goes on to complain that she cannot receive a city. You cannot say that of me. I live outside mobile signal from her kitchen sink and that Tel- of the city of Launceston, which is a regional stra broadband services in Gippsland— city in the state of Tasmania. I know Senator somewhere near the McGauran constitu- McGauran has been there. He has been on ency— TV. I recall the shot of him on TV. It was in are hopeless for small business people and farm- Hobart, of course. I think it was a shot of the ers trying to do business. ‘We need similar access to telecommunications to the city and that is a long way off.’

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 125

Ms McKenzie is a break from the pure country cations service levels and appropriate market traditions of the Nationals. conditions. She is certainly a break from the tradition of The disclaimer says that the sale of Telstra is The Nationals who find their way in here, contingent on adequate telecommunications because that is not what they are saying. Or service levels. But, as I pointed out during did they say that? Did they say that to the the address-in-reply debate, dropped from electorate? I seem to recall that there have the disclaimer was the phrase heard when the been many comments from The Nationals Telstra sale legislation was previously before about the inadequacies of Telstra. We can go the parliament—that is, that the sale is con- back to comments by Senator Boswell, tingent on adequate service levels in regional which I will draw on later, who has been a Australia. long-term critic of Telstra. We can talk about It appears that adequate telecommunica- the sorts of comments that were made by Mr tions service levels defined any way the Lib- Mark Vaile. A report from AAP on 11 No- eral Party sees fit is now enough. Regional, vember in its Australian general news section rural and remote Australians do not want said: Telstra sold. For heaven’s sake, even rank Trade Minister Mark Vaile said it appeared Telstra and file members of the National Party do was slipping back to the days when it was the not want Telstra sold, because once it is sold nation’s monopoly phone provider in a signal that a company that dances to just one beat— there were major concerns within the Nationals shareholder profit—will not give a damn about plans to sell-off the rest of the company. about services outside the CBDs of Sydney, We will come back to that later. As I said, if Melbourne and Brisbane. Perhaps if the Na- The Nationals were concerned about rural tional Party representatives spent more time and regional Australia, they would have away from the shops of Collins Street or brought on this debate, not dismissed it, as staking out future electorate offices on the Senator McGauran said. They would be Gold Coast or listening to people in regional standing side by side with Labor opposing Australia who have to live with the fact that the sale of the remainder of Telstra in public they cannot rely on their telecommunications ownership, rather than being the puppet of services, we would hear them saying in this the Liberal Party that they have become. To debate that they supported Labor’s position understand who was the master in this debate to keep the remainder of Telstra in public we need only look at what the Governor- ownership. General’s speech in this chamber on Tuesday It was not that long ago that Senator Bos- told us. Although media reports state that the well stood in this place calling for account- Governor-General was very keen to put his ability from Telstra. Back in 1995 Senator own stamp on the speech, we understand that Boswell wanted a bit of openness, a bit of he was subsequently acquainted with the transparency and better services for his then convention that the speech is composed by constituency. It is no surprise to hear that the government. We know that means the Senator Boswell was an opposition senator Liberal Party. So it was that, on the sale of when he called for that kind of accountabil- Telstra, the Howard government had this to ity. Apparently he has changed his mind. He say through the Governor-General: seems to think that everything is okay with The government will pursue its longstanding pol- the service levels Telstra are providing re- icy for the full privatisation of Telstra. Its future gional Australia and it is therefore okay to sale will be contingent on adequate telecommuni- flog off the remainder of Telstra. That means

CHAMBER 126 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004 either he is so far out of touch with regional not make the final version of the Governor- Australians that he is deluded or he has de- General’s speech is not a good sign. Senator cided to stay quiet and toe the Liberal Party Conroy and Senator Lundy have already out- line. It has to be one or the other. Both op- lined some deficiencies in Telstra’s services tions are disappointing because Senator in this debate, but obviously the National Boswell, just like his party, used to care Party was not listening. There was a time about services in regional Australia. Former when senators on both sides of this place National Party greats like Black Jack McE- believed in something. I am not saying that wen and would not have con- the Liberal Party senators believed in some- sidered kowtowing to the Liberals on an is- thing because, as a former leader of the La- sue as important as decent telecommunica- bor Party has observed, the Liberal Party has tions services. They just would not have only ever believed in office. But once upon a done it. time the National Party held a reason to ex- It is interesting to note that, as National ist: it used to believe in a better deal for rural Party senators prepare to sell out the people and regional Australians. But now it is only of regional Australia on Telstra, some of their Labor that regional Australians can rely on to colleagues in the other place hold views that stand up for rural and regional services. reflect some semblance of reality. Just eight There is no better example of that than the days ago the Deputy Leader of the National question of Telstra’s future. Party, Mark Vaile, admitted that Telstra had There was also a time when the parlia- dropped the ball on key services to regional ment contained a fierce opponent of the sale centres. Interestingly, he said as much only a of Telstra in the member for Dawson. Then day after Senator Coonan and the Leader of she was a humble member from Far North the National Party, John Anderson, went to Queensland who put the interests of her con- Warren in New South Wales to kick off the stituents first. But since she picked up the government’s T3 roadshow. It is not yet clear title of ‘Hon.’ she has started to do the dis- whether Mr Vaile is truly concerned about honourable thing—to sell Telstra and sell out Telstra or whether his statement was just a the people of her electorate. As senators pre-emptive tilt at the leadership made in the would be aware, there has been much talk knowledge that certain allegations made in about the amalgamation of the Liberal and the other place last night would soon emerge. National parties in Queensland—a push We can only hope that Mr Vaile, unlike his driven by Senator Brandis and doubtless colleagues in this place, has the interests of supported by Senators Heffernan and his constituency and his party at heart. If so, Minchin, although I think Senator Heffernan he will join the Labor Party in the other place is more intent on taking The Nationals seats and vote against the Telstra sale. from them than amalgamating with them. If, The National Party made a lot of promises as expected, the National Party sells its votes to its dwindling constituency during the elec- for places at the ministerial table and access tion campaign. Many of those promises that to the trappings of power, there will be no party will not keep in this parliament. But the need for an amalgamation; it will have al- National Party will be expected to keep its ready occurred. If, as expected, the National promises not to support the sale of Telstra Party colludes with the Liberals to deprive until services in regional, rural and remote rural and regional Queenslanders of decent Australia are of a decent standard. As I have telecommunications services, it will cease to already noted, the fact that that promise did be distinguishable from the Liberal Party to

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Queenslanders and it will pay the electoral had 101,919 employees. In 1968, when they price for its capitulation to the Liberals. In had 101,919 employees, I applied at Booligal fact, looking at the Governor-General’s for the phone. In those days, if you lived speech, you would have to conclude that the within the 10-mile radius of the exchange, National Party’s vote has already been sold you got the phone on for free. I qualified to the Liberals or that the National Party no under the law at the time to get the phone on longer plays an effective role in government. for free. As I say, the PMG was wholly gov- Besides Senator McGauran—who enjoys ernment owned and there were 101,919 em- excellent telecommunications services in that ployees. So I applied and after a year or two National Party heartland, the centre of Mel- I started to get invitations to the regional bourne—the National Party members talk a PMG Christmas Party at Narrandera because big game when they are in rural electorates. I became a curiosity because I had this out- National Party Senator elect Joyce has made standing phone application that was not ful- all sorts of statements about his requirements filled. In the meantime I installed an HF ra- before he will agree to the full sale of Telstra. dio and I could talk to those in Darwin or in Senator Boswell, Mrs Kelly and others, over the Tanami Desert, as well as those at home many years and most recently in the election in Junee. Then—you wouldn’t want to campaign, have made all sorts of promises to know—having applied for the phone, Sena- their constituencies. But the big game talked tor O’Brien, in 1968 under the PMG, in out there does not reflect their behaviour 1985, when there were 95,195 employees in when they get together with the Liberals in Telecom Australia, I got the bloody phone Canberra. They say one thing before the on. Just for the record, in 1985 I also got the election and another thing after. Surely, if the power on, so I did not have to go out and National Party were effective players in the crank the old Lister motor for the power. It Howard government, and if they had any took 18 years in government ownership with intention of standing up for rural and re- 100,000 employees for me to get the phone gional Australia, the Governor-General’s on. So do not tell me it has got anything to speech would have contained a real com- do with who owns the damn thing; it is how mitment to telecommunications in regional well it is run. Australia. Sadly, as I pointed out earlier, You will be pleased to know that services there was no such commitment—and there are a lot better. Everything can be improved; will be none as long as this government re- the bush is a lot better than it was. Out there, mains in office. where it took me 18 years to get the phone Senator HEFFERNAN (New South on, we are now on the Net, so we are up Wales) (5.52 p.m.)—I would like to address there. But you will be saddened to know that that part of Senator Conroy’s motion that we have got no chance of a tar road. We are ‘calls on the Government to keep Telstra in 60 miles from the tar. We are never going to majority public ownership to ensure reliable get a tar road. If you live in remote enough telecommunications services for all Austra- areas, you are not going to get Pitt Street or lians’. What a load of rubbish! Who owns Collins Street or whatever street services; Telstra has got nothing to do with the ser- you cannot expect to. We do not expect to vice. It is about how well it is run and how have a McDonald’s down the road from well it is managed. To demonstrate that, I where we live, but we do expect good ser- would like to point out to the Senate that in vices. It is fair to say that the Country Wide 1968 the Postmaster General’s Department division of Telstra understand this. Country

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Wide are approachable. In my area they have calls start to come down? When they intro- a regional office. Hello to the boys in the duced competition. regional office of Country Wide in Albury— Yesterday in my office David Lidiard and because you can ring them up. Things go some other people and Michael McLeod and wrong. It is like the nursing homes: someone Doug Russell came along from Message is always in trouble. Things go wrong with Stick. They want to become an Aboriginal telephones. There are some problems, and I provider, and I am going to give them some have never heard such political rubbish in all encouragement and help. That is another arm my life as I have heard in the debate today. I of competition. They want to get out into have to say that, unlike all the other speakers remote Aboriginal communities. in this debate, I actually come from the back Senator O’Brien—Think about it. Think country and I live this stuff. That is why you about what Telstra should do. will not put it over me, Senator O’Brien, as you know. Senator HEFFERNAN—Yes, all of that, but this is all about competition. I know it is Senator O’Brien—I don’t have to put it all about providing a service. Once again, it over you. will be the service that they can provide. It Senator HEFFERNAN—One of the will not be who owns the thing that the sub- problems we now have in the bush that will scriber will worry about. have to be fixed and addressed—and most Senator O’Brien—Whose network? Australians in the bush are worried that they will not be able to afford to have the damn Senator HEFFERNAN—I do not want to phone on—is boundary access. Under the old go into that. I am not here advertising for regime, when there were the 101,000 em- them. I am merely pointing out the fact there ployees in 1968, they brought the phone to are people wanting to provide competition in the side of your house in the bush. You may the market. I think this has been a false de- or may not be aware of this. At the moment bate. It really needs to be about what are the they have to bring it to your boundary. But requirements: how we can improve the cus- what if the boundary is 10 miles from the tomer service guarantee and how we can house? It becomes a very expensive opera- improve the universal service obligation. The tion. This is an issue that I have raised with fear of the people that live in the areas that I the government, and I am sure the govern- come from is that you will not be able to af- ment is going to address it. I have spoken ford the service. I have had this experience. today to the minister. This debate is not It can cost $10,000 just to trench the line about, despite what the motion says, main- from the boundary to bring the line into your taining good services because of ownership. house. In those days it cost a lot of money It is about what are the rules, regulations and just to put the power on. If we want people to management that you put around it. There is be out there in rural, regional and remote a Wagga boy in charge of Qantas. Qantas is a Australia, we have got to look after them, but wonderful organisation. Mr Dixon is a looking after them has got nothing to do with Wagga boy. David Murray is at the Com- who owns the show. monwealth Bank. It is a great organisation. It As you would know, Senator O’Brien, is well run. It is about the regulations and good corporate structures are about responsi- rules you put around it. It has got nothing to bility. You have got to balance your profit- do with who owns it. As all the speakers ability against your reinvestment. That is have said, when did the price of telephone what has gone wrong with Sydney Water,

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 129 and that is what is wrong with Sydney Water was adjourned till Thursday at general now. The government has carved off Sydney business. Water and some of the investment that they Australian Radiation Protection and Nu- had that should have gone back into refur- clear Safety Agency—Quarterly report for bishment and rebuilding the system went the period 1 January to 31 March 2004. into consolidated revenue. Sydney Water is a Motion of Senator Buckland to take note of complete catastrophe now and Sydney’s wa- document called on. On the motion of Senator George Campbell debate was ad- ter system is under siege. journed till Thursday at general business. Senator O’Brien—Tell us about AWB. Medibank Private—Report for 2003-04. Senator HEFFERNAN—I am nearly out Motion of Senator Buckland to take note of of time. document called on. On the motion of Senator O’Brien—Tell us about AWB. Senator George Campbell debate was ad- journed till Thursday at general business. Senator HEFFERNAN—I can tell you Medibank Private—Statement of corporate about AWB or anything else you like. As you intent 2004-2007. Motion of Senator Buck- know, I am happy to stand up in our commit- land to take note of document called on. tee and say what I think the issues are. The On the motion of Senator George Camp- issues today are not who owns Telstra but bell debate was adjourned till Thursday at how well it is managed, what regulations and general business. requirements you put around it and what ser- Repatriation Medical Authority—Report vice you can provide. for 2003-04. Motion of Senator Buckland Debate interrupted. to take note of document called on. On the motion of Senator George Campbell debate DOCUMENTS was adjourned till Thursday at general Consideration business. The following orders of the day relating to Final Budget Outcome 2003-04—Report government documents were considered: by the Treasurer (Mr Costello) and the Minister for Finance and Administration Australian Law Reform Commission— (Senator Minchin), September 2004. Mo- Report no. 99—Genes and ingenuity: Gene tion of Senator Buckland to take note of patenting and human health, June 2004. document called on. On the motion of Motion of Senator Buckland to take note of Senator George Campbell debate was ad- document called on. On the motion of journed till Thursday at general business. Senator George Campbell debate was ad- Australian War Memorial—Report for journed till Thursday at general business. 2003-04. Motion of Senator Buckland to Sydney Airport Demand Management Act take note of document called on. On the 1997—Quarterly report on the maximum motion of Senator George Campbell debate movement limit for Sydney Airport for the was adjourned till Thursday at general period 1 April to 30 June 2004. Motion of business. Senator Buckland to take note of document Defence Housing Authority—Statement of called on. On the motion of Senator George Campbell debate was adjourned till corporate intent, 2004-05. Motion of Sena- tor Buckland to take note of document Thursday at general business. called on. On the motion of Senator Reserve Bank of Australia—Report for George Campbell debate was adjourned till 2003-04. Motion of Senator Buckland to Thursday at general business. take note of document called on. On the motion of Senator George Campbell debate Australian Electoral Commission—Report for 2003-04. Motion of Senator Buckland

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to take note of document called on. On the Australian Bureau of Statistics—Report for motion of Senator George Campbell debate 2003-04. Motion of Senator Buckland to was adjourned till Thursday at general take note of document called on. On the business. motion of Senator George Campbell debate Australian Strategic Policy Institute— was adjourned till Thursday at general Report for 2003-04. Motion of Senator business. Buckland to take note of document called Australian Safeguards and Non- on. On the motion of Senator George Proliferation Office—Report for 2003-04. Campbell debate was adjourned till Thurs- Motion of Senator Buckland to take note of day at general business. document called on. On the motion of National Standards Commission—Report Senator George Campbell debate was ad- for 2003-04. Motion of Senator Buckland journed till Thursday at general business. to take note of document called on. On the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and motion of Senator George Campbell debate Forestry—Report for 2003-04. Motion of was adjourned till Thursday at general Senator Buckland to take note of document business. called on. On the motion of Senator Housing Assistance Act 1996—Report for George Campbell debate was adjourned till 2002-03 on the operation of the 1999 Thursday at general business. Commonwealth-State Housing Agreement Civil Aviation Safety Authority Australia— [Final]. Motion of Senator Buckland to Corporate plan 2004-05 to 2006-07. Mo- take note of document called on. On the tion of Senator Buckland to take note of motion of Senator George Campbell debate document called on. On the motion of was adjourned till Thursday at general Senator George Campbell debate was ad- business. journed till Thursday at general business. Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade— Indigenous Land Corporation—National Reports for 2003-04—Volume 1— Indigenous land strategy 2001-2006— Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. Changes to strategy, February 2004. Mo- Motion of Senator Buckland to take note of tion of Senator Buckland to take note of document called on. On the motion of document called on. On the motion of Senator George Campbell debate was ad- Senator George Campbell debate was ad- journed till Thursday at general business. journed till Thursday at general business. Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade— Repatriation Medical Authority—Report Reports for 2003-04—Volume 2— for 2003-04—Corrigendum. Motion of Australian Agency for International Devel- Senator Buckland to take note of document opment (AusAID). Motion of Senator called on. On the motion of Senator Buckland to take note of document called George Campbell debate was adjourned till on. On the motion of Senator George Thursday at general business. Campbell debate was adjourned till Thurs- Stevedoring Industry Finance Commit- day at general business. tee—Report for 2003-04. Motion of Sena- National Residue Survey—Report for tor Buckland to take note of document 2003-04, incorporating the report for called on. On the motion of Senator 2003-04 on the National Residue survey George Campbell debate was adjourned till results. Motion of Senator Buckland to Thursday at general business. take note of document called on. On the Albury-Wodonga Development Corpora- motion of Senator George Campbell debate tion—Report for 2003-04. Motion of Sena- was adjourned till Thursday at general tor Buckland to take note of document business. called on. On the motion of Senator

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George Campbell debate was adjourned till on. On the motion of Senator George Thursday at general business. Campbell debate was adjourned till Thurs- Department of Industry, Tourism and Re- day at general business. sources—Report for 2003-04. Motion of Remuneration Tribunal—Report for Senator Buckland to take note of document 2003-04. Motion of Senator Buckland to called on. On the motion of Senator take note of document called on. On the George Campbell debate was adjourned till motion of Senator George Campbell debate Thursday at general business. was adjourned till Thursday at general Export Finance and Insurance Corpora- business. tion—Report for 2003-04. Motion of Sena- Department of Communications, Informa- tor Buckland to take note of document tion Technology and the Arts—Report for called on. On the motion of Senator 2003-04. Motion of Senator Buckland to George Campbell debate was adjourned till take note of document called on. On the Thursday at general business. motion of Senator George Campbell debate Australian Wine and Brandy Corpora- was adjourned till Thursday at general tion—Report for 2003-04. Motion of Sena- business. tor Buckland to take note of document Telstra Corporation Limited—Report for called on. On the motion of Senator 2003-04. Motion of Senator Buckland to George Campbell debate was adjourned till take note of document called on. On the Thursday at general business. motion of Senator George Campbell debate Australian Trade Commission (Aus- was adjourned till Thursday at general trade)—Report for 2003-04. Motion of business. Senator Buckland to take note of document National Archives of Australia and Na- called on. On the motion of Senator tional Archives of Australia Advisory George Campbell debate was adjourned till Council—Reports for 2003-04. Motion of Thursday at general business. Senator Buckland to take note of document Maritime Industry Finance Company Lim- called on. On the motion of Senator ited—Report for 2003-04. Motion of Sena- George Campbell debate was adjourned till tor Buckland to take note of document Thursday at general business. called on. On the motion of Senator National Gallery of Australia—Report for George Campbell debate was adjourned till 2003-04. Motion of Senator Buckland to Thursday at general business. take note of document called on. On the Department of the Prime Minister and motion of Senator George Campbell debate Cabinet—Report for 2003-04. Motion of was adjourned till Thursday at general Senator Buckland to take note of document business. called on. On the motion of Senator Australian Film, Television and Radio George Campbell debate was adjourned till School—Report for 2003-04. Motion of Thursday at general business. Senator Buckland to take note of document Australian Centre for International Agri- called on. On the motion of Senator cultural Research—Report for 2003-04. George Campbell debate was adjourned till Motion of Senator Buckland to take note of Thursday at general business. document called on. On the motion of Australia Council—Report for 2003-04. Senator George Campbell debate was ad- Motion of Senator Buckland to take note of journed till Thursday at general business. document called on. On the motion of Australian Industrial Relations Commis- Senator George Campbell debate was ad- sion and Australian Industrial Registry— journed till Thursday at general business. Reports for 2003-04. Motion of Senator Australian National Maritime Museum— Buckland to take note of document called Report for 2003-04. Motion of Senator

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Buckland to take note of document called Buckland to take note of document called on. On the motion of Senator George on. On the motion of Senator George Campbell debate was adjourned till Thurs- Campbell debate was adjourned till Thurs- day at general business. day at general business. Australian Communications Authority— Australian Postal Corporation (Australia Report for 2003-04. Motion of Senator Post)—Report for 2003-04. Motion of Buckland to take note of document called Senator Buckland to take note of document on. On the motion of Senator George called on. On the motion of Senator Campbell debate was adjourned till Thurs- George Campbell debate was adjourned till day at general business. Thursday at general business. NetAlert Limited—Report for 2003-04. Office of Film and Literature Classifica- Motion of Senator Buckland to take note of tion—Classification Board and Classifica- document called on. On the motion of tion Review Board—Reports for 2003-04. Senator George Campbell debate was ad- Motion of Senator Buckland to take note of journed till Thursday at general business. document called on. On the motion of Film Australia Limited—Report for Senator George Campbell debate was ad- 2003-04. Motion of Senator Buckland to journed till Thursday at general business. take note of document called on. On the Office of Parliamentary Counsel—Report motion of Senator George Campbell debate for 2003-04. Motion of Senator Buckland was adjourned till Thursday at general to take note of document called on. On the business. motion of Senator George Campbell debate Australian Broadcasting Corporation— was adjourned till Thursday at general Report for 2003-04. Motion of Senator business. Buckland to take note of document called Federal Police Disciplinary Tribunal— on. On the motion of Senator George Report for 2003-04. Motion of Senator Campbell debate was adjourned till Thurs- Buckland to take note of document called day at general business. on. On the motion of Senator George National Library of Australia—Report for Campbell debate was adjourned till Thurs- 2003-04. Motion of Senator Buckland to day at general business. take note of document called on. On the Family Law Council—Report for 2003-04. motion of Senator George Campbell debate Motion of Senator Buckland to take note of was adjourned till Thursday at general document called on. On the motion of business. Senator George Campbell debate was ad- National Museum of Australia—Report for journed till Thursday at general business. 2003-04. Motion of Senator Buckland to Great Barrier Reef Marine Park Author- take note of document called on. On the ity—Report for 2003-04. Motion of Sena- motion of Senator George Campbell debate tor Buckland to take note of document was adjourned till Thursday at general called on. On the motion of Senator business. George Campbell debate was adjourned till Australian Postal Corporation (Australia Thursday at general business. Post)—Equal employment opportunity Film Finance Corporation Australia Lim- program—Report for 2003-04. Motion of ited—Report for 2003-04. Motion of Sena- Senator Buckland to take note of document tor Buckland to take note of document called on. On the motion of Senator called on. On the motion of Senator George Campbell debate was adjourned till George Campbell debate was adjourned till Thursday at general business. Thursday at general business. Australia Business Arts Foundation Ltd— Family Court of Australia—Report for Report for 2003-04. Motion of Senator 2003-04. Motion of Senator Buckland to

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take note of document called on. On the Commonwealth Director of Public Prose- motion of Senator George Campbell debate cutions—Report for 2003-04. Motion of was adjourned till Thursday at general Senator Buckland to take note of document business. called on. On the motion of Senator Office of the Federal Privacy Commis- George Campbell debate was adjourned till sioner—Report for 2003-04 on the opera- Thursday at general business. tion of the Privacy Act 1988. Motion of Australian Greenhouse Office—Report for Senator Buckland to take note of document 2003-04. Motion of Senator Buckland to called on. On the motion of Senator take note of document called on. On the George Campbell debate was adjourned till motion of Senator George Campbell debate Thursday at general business. was adjourned till Thursday at general Australian Transaction Reports and Analy- business. sis Centre (AUSTRAC)—Report for PSS Board—Public Sector Superannuation 2003-04. Motion of Senator Buckland to Scheme—Report for 2003-04. Motion of take note of document called on. On the Senator Buckland to take note of document motion of Senator George Campbell debate called on. On the motion of Senator was adjourned till Thursday at general George Campbell debate was adjourned till business. Thursday at general business. Industrial Relations Court of Australia— CSS Board—Commonwealth Superannua- Report for 2003-04. Motion of Senator tion Scheme—Report for 2003-04. Motion Buckland to take note of document called of Senator Buckland to take note of docu- on. On the motion of Senator George ment called on. On the motion of Senator Campbell debate was adjourned till Thurs- George Campbell debate was adjourned till day at general business. Thursday at general business. Australian Government Information Man- Acts Interpretation Act—Statement pursu- agement Office—Report for 2003-04. Mo- ant to section 34C(6) relating to the exten- tion of Senator Buckland to take note of sion of specified period for the presenta- document called on. On the motion of tion of a report—Department of Finance Senator George Campbell debate was ad- and Administration—Report for 2003-04. journed till Thursday at general business. Motion of Senator Buckland to take note of Australian Film Commission—Report for document called on. On the motion of 2003-04. Motion of Senator Buckland to Senator George Campbell debate was ad- take note of document called on. On the journed till Thursday at general business. motion of Senator George Campbell debate Australian Research Council—Report for was adjourned till Thursday at general 2003-04. Motion of Senator Buckland to business. take note of document called on. On the Department of Family and Community motion of Senator George Campbell debate Services—Report for 2003-04—Volumes 1 was adjourned till Thursday at general and 2. Motion of Senator Buckland to take business. note of document called on. On the motion Repatriation Commission, Military Reha- of Senator George Campbell debate was bilitation and Compensation Commission, adjourned till Thursday at general business. Department of Veterans’ Affairs and Na- Australian Institute of Family Studies— tional Treatment Monitoring Committee— Report for 2003-04. Motion of Senator Reports for 2003-04. Motion of Senator Buckland to take note of document called Buckland to take note of document called on. On the motion of Senator George on. On the motion of Senator George Campbell debate was adjourned till Thurs- Campbell debate was adjourned till Thurs- day at general business. day at general business.

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Department of the Environment and Heri- Senator George Campbell debate was ad- tage—Report for 2003-04, including the journed till Thursday at general business. final annual report of the Australian Heri- Central Queensland Land Council Abo- tage Commission. Motion of Senator riginal Corporation—Report for 2003-04. Buckland to take note of document called Motion of Senator Buckland to take note of on. On the motion of Senator George document called on. On the motion of Campbell debate was adjourned till Thurs- Senator George Campbell debate was ad- day at general business. journed till Thursday at general business. Commonwealth Grants Commission— Goldfields Land and Sea Council Aborigi- Report for 2003-04. Motion of Senator nal Corporation—Report for 2003-04. Mo- Buckland to take note of document called tion of Senator Buckland to take note of on. On the motion of Senator George document called on. On the motion of Campbell debate was adjourned till Thurs- Senator George Campbell debate was ad- day at general business. journed till Thursday at general business. Australian National Training Authority— Gurang Land Council (Aboriginal Corpo- Report for 2003-04. Motion of Senator ration)—Report for 2003-04. Motion of Buckland to take note of document called Senator Buckland to take note of document on. On the motion of Senator George called on. On the motion of Senator Campbell debate was adjourned till Thurs- George Campbell debate was adjourned till day at general business. Thursday at general business. Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Ser- Kimberley Land Council Aboriginal Cor- vices—Report for 2003-04. Motion of poration—Report for 2003-04. Motion of Senator Buckland to take note of document Senator Buckland to take note of document called on. On the motion of Senator called on. On the motion of Senator George Campbell debate was adjourned till George Campbell debate was adjourned till Thursday at general business. Thursday at general business. Aboriginal Land Commissioner—Report Aboriginal Legal Rights Movement Inc.— for 2003-04. Motion of Senator Buckland Native Title Unit—Report for 2003-04. to take note of document called on. On the Motion of Senator Buckland to take note of motion of Senator George Campbell debate document called on. On the motion of was adjourned till Thursday at general Senator George Campbell debate was ad- business. journed till Thursday at general business. Anindilyakwa Land Council—Report for North Queensland Land Council Native Ti- 2003-04. Motion of Senator Buckland to tle Representative Body Aboriginal Corpo- take note of document called on. On the ration—Report for 2003-04. Motion of motion of Senator George Campbell debate Senator Buckland to take note of document was adjourned till Thursday at general called on. On the motion of Senator business. George Campbell debate was adjourned till Indigenous Land Corporation—Report for Thursday at general business. 2003-04. Motion of Senator Buckland to South West Aboriginal Land and Sea take note of document called on. On the Council Aboriginal Corporation—Report motion of Senator George Campbell debate for 2003-04. Motion of Senator Buckland was adjourned till Thursday at general to take note of document called on. On the business. motion of Senator George Campbell debate Tiwi Land Council—Report for 2003-04. was adjourned till Thursday at general Motion of Senator Buckland to take note of business. document called on. On the motion of Yamatji Marlpa Barna Baba Maaja Abo- riginal Corporation—Report for 2003-04.

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Motion of Senator Buckland to take note of Senator Buckland to take note of document document called on. On the motion of called on. On the motion of Senator Senator George Campbell debate was ad- George Campbell debate was adjourned till journed till Thursday at general business. Thursday at general business. National Oceans Office—Report for Public Lending Right Committee—Report 2003-04. Motion of Senator Buckland to for 2003-04. Motion of Senator Buckland take note of document called on. On the to take note of document called on. On the motion of Senator George Campbell debate motion of Senator George Campbell debate was adjourned till Thursday at general was adjourned till Thursday at general business. business. Australian National Training Authority— Australian Broadcasting Authority— Report for 2003. Motion of Senator Buck- Report for 2003-04. Motion of Senator land to take note of document called on. Buckland to take note of document called On the motion of Senator George Camp- on. On the motion of Senator George bell debate was adjourned till Thursday at Campbell debate was adjourned till Thurs- general business. day at general business. Inspector-General of Intelligence and Se- Bundanon Trust—Report for 2003-04. Mo- curity—Report for 2003-04. Motion of tion of Senator Buckland to take note of Senator Buckland to take note of document document called on. On the motion of called on. On the motion of Senator Senator George Campbell debate was ad- George Campbell debate was adjourned till journed till Thursday at general business. Thursday at general business. Public Service Commissioner—Report for Office of the Renewable Energy Regula- 2003-04, together with the report of the tor—Report for 2003-04. Motion of Sena- Merit Protection Commissioner. Motion of tor Buckland to take note of document Senator Buckland to take note of document called on. On the motion of Senator called on. On the motion of Senator George Campbell debate was adjourned till George Campbell debate was adjourned till Thursday at general business. Thursday at general business. National Australia Day Council—Report Australian Nuclear Science and Technol- for 2003-04. Motion of Senator Buckland ogy Organisation (ANSTO)—Report for to take note of document called on. On the 2003-04. Motion of Senator Buckland to motion of Senator George Campbell debate take note of document called on. On the was adjourned till Thursday at general motion of Senator George Campbell debate business. was adjourned till Thursday at general Commonwealth Ombudsman—Report for business. 2003-04. Motion of Senator Buckland to Australian Institute of Marine Science— take note of document called on. On the Report for 2003-04. Motion of Senator motion of Senator George Campbell debate Buckland to take note of document called was adjourned till Thursday at general on. On the motion of Senator George business. Campbell debate was adjourned till Thurs- Department of the Treasury—Report for day at general business. 2003-04. Motion of Senator Buckland to Department of Education, Science and take note of document called on. On the Training—Report for 2003-04. Motion of motion of Senator George Campbell debate Senator Buckland to take note of document was adjourned till Thursday at general called on. On the motion of Senator business. George Campbell debate was adjourned till Australian Office of Financial Manage- Thursday at general business. ment—Report for 2003-04. Motion of

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Enterprise and Career Education Founda- Comcare Australia—Report for 2003-04. tion Limited—Report for 2003-04. Motion Motion of Senator Buckland to take note of of Senator Buckland to take note of docu- document called on. On the motion of ment called on. On the motion of Senator Senator George Campbell debate was ad- George Campbell debate was adjourned till journed till Thursday at general business. Thursday at general business. CrimTrac Agency—Report for 2003-04. Administrative Appeals Tribunal—Report Motion of Senator Buckland to take note of for 2003-04. Motion of Senator Buckland document called on. On the motion of to take note of document called on. On the Senator George Campbell debate was ad- motion of Senator George Campbell debate journed till Thursday at general business. was adjourned till Thursday at general Australian Customs Service—Report for business. 2003-04. Motion of Senator Buckland to Australian Law Reform Commission— take note of document called on. On the Report no. 100—Report for 2003-04. Mo- motion of Senator George Campbell debate tion of Senator Buckland to take note of was adjourned till Thursday at general document called on. On the motion of business. Senator George Campbell debate was ad- Australian Reinsurance Pool Corpora- journed till Thursday at general business. tion—Report for 2003-04. Motion of Sena- Federal Magistrates Court—Report for tor Buckland to take note of document 2003-04. Motion of Senator Buckland to called on. On the motion of Senator take note of document called on. On the George Campbell debate was adjourned till motion of Senator George Campbell debate Thursday at general business. was adjourned till Thursday at general Inspector-General of Taxation—Report for business. the period 7 August 2003 to 30 June 2004. Australian Government Solicitor—Report Motion of Senator Buckland to take note of for 2003-04. Motion of Senator Buckland document called on. On the motion of to take note of document called on. On the Senator George Campbell debate was ad- motion of Senator George Campbell debate journed till Thursday at general business. was adjourned till Thursday at general Sydney Harbour Federation Trust—Report business. for 2003-04. Motion of Senator Buckland Administrative Review Council—Report to take note of document called on. On the for 2003-04. Motion of Senator Buckland motion of Senator George Campbell debate to take note of document called on. On the was adjourned till Thursday at general motion of Senator George Campbell debate business. was adjourned till Thursday at general Supervising Scientist—Report for 2003-04 business. on the operation of the Environment Pro- Federal Court of Australia—Report for tection (Alligator Rivers Region) Act 1978. 2003-04. Motion of Senator Buckland to Motion of Senator Buckland to take note of take note of document called on. On the document called on. On the motion of motion of Senator George Campbell debate Senator George Campbell debate was ad- was adjourned till Thursday at general journed till Thursday at general business. business. Employment Advocate—Report for Food Standards Australia New Zealand— 2003-04. Motion of Senator Buckland to Report for 2003-04. Motion of Senator take note of document called on. On the Buckland to take note of document called motion of Senator George Campbell debate on. On the motion of Senator George was adjourned till Thursday at general Campbell debate was adjourned till Thurs- business. day at general business.

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Commissioner of Taxation—Report for Inspector-General in Bankruptcy—Report 2003-04. Motion of Senator Buckland to for 2003-04 on the operation of the Bank- take note of document called on. On the ruptcy Act 1966. Motion of Senator Buck- motion of Senator George Campbell debate land to take note of document called on. was adjourned till Thursday at general On the motion of Senator George Camp- business. bell debate was adjourned till Thursday at Social Security Appeals Tribunal—Report general business. for 2003-04. Motion of Senator Buckland Acts Interpretation Act—Statement pursu- to take note of document called on. On the ant to section 34C(6) relating to the exten- motion of Senator George Campbell debate sion of specified period for the presenta- was adjourned till Thursday at general tion of a report—Department of Transport business. and Regional Services—Report for Aboriginal Hostels Limited—Report for 2003-04. the period 29 June 2003 to 26 June 2004. Australian Prudential Regulation Author- Motion of Senator Buckland to take note of ity—Report for 2003-04. Motion of Sena- document called on. On the motion of tor Buckland to take note of document Senator George Campbell debate was ad- called on. On the motion of Senator journed till Thursday at general business. George Campbell debate was adjourned till International Air Services Commission— Thursday at general business. Report for 2003-04. Motion of Senator Royal Australian Air Force Veterans’ Resi- Buckland to take note of document called dences Trust Fund—Report for 2003-04. on. On the motion of Senator George Motion of Senator Buckland to take note of Campbell debate was adjourned till Thurs- document called on. On the motion of day at general business. Senator George Campbell debate was ad- Australian Security Intelligence Organisa- journed till Thursday at general business. tion—Report for 2003-04. Motion of Sena- Services Trust Funds—Reports for tor Buckland to take note of document 2003-04 of the Australian Military Forces called on. On the motion of Senator Relief Trust Fund, the Royal Australian George Campbell debate was adjourned till Navy Relief Trust Fund and the Royal Aus- Thursday at general business. tralian Air Force Welfare Trust Fund. Mo- Special Broadcasting Service Corporation tion of Senator Buckland to take note of (SBS)—Report for 2003-04. Motion of document called on. On the motion of Senator Buckland to take note of document Senator George Campbell debate was ad- called on. On the motion of Senator journed till Thursday at general business. George Campbell debate was adjourned till Commissioner for Complaints—Report for Thursday at general business. 2003-04. Motion of Senator Buckland to Attorney-General’s Department—Report take note of document called on. On the for 2003-04. Motion of Senator Buckland motion of Senator George Campbell debate to take note of document called on. On the was adjourned till Thursday at general motion of Senator George Campbell debate business. was adjourned till Thursday at general Aged Care Standards and Accreditation business. Agency Limited—Report for 2003-04. Insolvency and Trustee Service Australia— Motion of Senator Buckland to take note of Report for 2003-04. Motion of Senator document called on. On the motion of Buckland to take note of document called Senator George Campbell debate was ad- on. On the motion of Senator George journed till Thursday at general business. Campbell debate was adjourned till Thurs- Australian Maritime Safety Authority— day at general business. Report for 2003-04. Motion of Senator

CHAMBER 138 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004

Buckland to take note of document called of Technological Sciences and Engineer- on. On the motion of Senator George ing, March 2004. Motion of Senator Buck- Campbell debate was adjourned till Thurs- land to take note of document called on. day at general business. On the motion of Senator George Camp- Department of Immigration and Multicul- bell debate was adjourned till Thursday at tural and Indigenous Affairs—Report for general business. 2003-04. Motion of Senator Buckland to Companies Auditors and Liquidators Dis- take note of document called on. On the ciplinary Board—Report for 2003-04. Mo- motion of Senator George Campbell debate tion of Senator Buckland to take note of was adjourned till Thursday at general document called on. On the motion of business. Senator George Campbell debate was ad- Corporate governance—Review of the journed till Thursday at general business. corporate governance of statutory authori- Financial Reporting Council and Austra- ties and office holders—Report, June 2003. lian Accounting Standards Board—Reports Motion of Senator Buckland to take note of for 2003-04. Motion of Senator Buckland document called on. On the motion of to take note of document called on. On the Senator George Campbell debate was ad- motion of Senator George Campbell debate journed till Thursday at general business. was adjourned till Thursday at general Corporate governance—Review of the business. corporate governance of statutory authori- Corporations and Markets Advisory Com- ties and office holders—Government re- mittee—Report for 2003-04. Motion of sponse. Motion of Senator Buckland to Senator Buckland to take note of document take note of document called on. On the called on. On the motion of Senator motion of Senator George Campbell debate George Campbell debate was adjourned till was adjourned till Thursday at general Thursday at general business. business. Australian Securities and Investments Tobacco Research and Development Cor- Commission—Report for 2003-04. Motion poration—Report for 2003-04. [Final re- of Senator Buckland to take note of docu- port]. Motion of Senator Buckland to take ment called on. On the motion of Senator note of document called on. On the motion George Campbell debate was adjourned till of Senator George Campbell debate was Thursday at general business. adjourned till Thursday at general business. Australian Statistics Advisory Council— Australian Government Solicitor— Report for 2003-04. Motion of Senator Statement of corporate intent 2004-05. Mo- Buckland to take note of document called tion of Senator Buckland to take note of on. On the motion of Senator George document called on. On the motion of Campbell debate was adjourned till Thurs- Senator George Campbell debate was ad- day at general business. journed till Thursday at general business. Australian Radiation Protection and Nu- Product Stewardship (Oil) Act 2000— clear Safety Agency—Report for 2003-04. Independent review—Report by The Allen Motion of Senator Buckland to take note of Consulting Group, May 2004. Motion of document called on. On the motion of Senator Buckland to take note of document Senator George Campbell debate was ad- called on. On the motion of Senator journed till Thursday at general business. George Campbell debate was adjourned till Australian Institute of Aboriginal and Tor- Thursday at general business. res Strait Islander Studies—Report for Product Stewardship for Oil Program— 2003-04. Motion of Senator Buckland to Independent review of the transitional as- take note of document called on. On the sistance—Report by Australian Academy motion of Senator George Campbell debate

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was adjourned till Thursday at general take note of document called on. On the business. motion of Senator George Campbell debate Murray-Darling Basin Commission— was adjourned till Thursday at general Report for 2003-04. Motion of Senator business. Buckland to take note of document called Crimes Act 1914—Assumed identities— on. On the motion of Senator George Australian Federal Police—Report for Campbell debate was adjourned till Thurs- 2003-04. Motion of Senator Buckland to day at general business. take note of document called on. On the Advance to the Finance Minister— motion of Senator George Campbell debate Statement and supporting applications for was adjourned till Thursday at general funds for June 2004. Motion of Senator business. Buckland to take note of document called Crimes Act 1914—Controlled operations— on. On the motion of Senator George Report for 2003-04. Motion of Senator Campbell debate was adjourned till Thurs- Buckland to take note of document called day at general business. on. On the motion of Senator George Department of Finance and Administra- Campbell debate was adjourned till Thurs- tion—Report for 2003-04. Motion of Sena- day at general business. tor Buckland to take note of document National Witness Protection Program— called on. On the motion of Senator Report for 2003-04 on the operation of the George Campbell debate was adjourned till Witness Protection Act 1994. Motion of Thursday at general business. Senator Buckland to take note of document Commissioner for Superannuation (Com- called on. On the motion of Senator Super)—Report for 2003-04. Motion of George Campbell debate was adjourned till Senator Buckland to take note of document Thursday at general business. called on. On the motion of Senator Department of Employment and Work- George Campbell debate was adjourned till place Relations—Report for 2003-04. Mo- Thursday at general business. tion of Senator Buckland to take note of Australia-Indonesia Institute—Report for document called on. On the motion of 2003-04. Motion of Senator Buckland to Senator George Campbell debate was ad- take note of document called on. On the journed till Thursday at general business. motion of Senator George Campbell debate Defence Force Remuneration Tribunal— was adjourned till Thursday at general Report for 2003-04. Motion of Senator business. Buckland to take note of document called Reserve Bank of Australia—Equity and di- on. On the motion of Senator George versity—Report for 2003-04. Motion of Campbell debate was adjourned till Thurs- Senator Buckland to take note of document day at general business. called on. On the motion of Senator Safety, Rehabilitation and Compensation George Campbell debate was adjourned till Commission—Report for 2003-04. Motion Thursday at general business. of Senator Buckland to take note of docu- Australian Institute of Criminology and the ment called on. On the motion of Senator Criminology Research Council—Reports George Campbell debate was adjourned till for 2003-04. Motion of Senator Buckland Thursday at general business. to take note of document called on. On the Seafarers Safety, Rehabilitation and Com- motion of Senator George Campbell debate pensation Authority—Report for 2003-04. was adjourned till Thursday at general Motion of Senator Buckland to take note of business. document called on. On the motion of National Native Title Tribunal—Report for Senator George Campbell debate was ad- 2003-04. Motion of Senator Buckland to journed till Thursday at general business.

CHAMBER 140 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004

Coal Mining Industry (Long Service Leave ratic one. As Ms Allison Henry, the National Funding) Corporation—Report for Director of the Australian Republican 2003-04. Motion of Senator Buckland to Movement, said in her evidence before the take note of document called on. On the committee: motion of Senator George Campbell debate was adjourned till Thursday at general ... the move to an Australian republic should be business. driven and owned by the Australian people. The republic should suit the temperament and tradi- APEC—Australia’s individual action plan tions of our democratic, egalitarian culture. The 2004. Motion of Senator Buckland to take Australian people should be consulted every step note of document called on. On the motion of the way in the making of it. of Senator George Campbell debate was adjourned till Thursday at general business. Now this is imperative for two reasons. COMMITTEES Firstly, as was the case with Federation, it is the collective will of the Australian people Legal and Constitutional References that will provide legitimacy to any Australian Committee republic. Secondly, from a strategic point of Report view, in order to guarantee the success of Senator STOTT DESPOJA (South Aus- such a campaign, it is fundamental that we tralia) (6.05 p.m.)—I move: get the wider Australian community on side That the Senate take note of the report. before we get to the final referendum stage. I am very proud to speak to this Legal and There must be a sense that the process is fair, Constitutional References Committee report that it is inclusive, that it is democratic and The road to a republic tonight. It represents that any model which eventually emerges has the culmination of the work of the commit- the support of the community or a majority tee’s inquiry into an Australian republic. The of that community. In other words, there has inquiry, I am proud to say, was an initiative to be a sense of ownership. of the Australian Democrats dating back to I know that there were some critics of the November 2002 when our leader, Senator last referendum campaign—the fifth anni- Bartlett, made the announcement at the Con- versary of which we celebrated the weekend stitutional Futures conference in Brisbane before last—who would argue that perhaps that we would move to establish such an in- there was a perceived lack of inclusivity and quiry. However, the Democrats have long that was one of the reasons for the lack of recognised that it is vital that the movement success of that campaign. But, as we all towards an Australian republic or an Austra- know in this place, it is notoriously difficult lian head of state transcend party political to effect constitutional change. Of 44 pro- boundaries. So, having announced that we posals to alter the Commonwealth Constitu- wanted to establish such an inquiry, we un- tion only eight have been successful. So, by dertook extensive consultation with others allowing Australians to participate as early as regarding appropriate terms of reference. possible in this process, hopefully we will After finalising the terms of reference a mo- eliminate the reasons that they may other- tion to establish the inquiry was passed by wise have for voting against a republic. This the Senate in June last year. The underlying is one of the common criticisms made of the objective of this inquiry was not only to give 1999 referendum campaign. While it was an momentum to the campaign but also to en- honour to participate in the Constitutional sure right from the outset that the process to Convention in 1998, and while the debates achieve an Australian republic was a democ- during the convention were lively and cer-

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 141 tainly unconfined by party politics, the fact community awareness, its impact was not as remains that half the delegates who partici- significant as we like to think. Two years pated were appointed and not elected. Some after the referendum campaign, the IEA people have expressed the opinion that the Civic Education Study found that only half Constitutional Convention was perceived as of Australian students had a basic under- an elitist event—one over which they had standing of the ingredients for a properly very little influence. I thought it was a glori- functioning democracy. Therefore, one of the ous event and I think it was one that did ef- challenges that confronts us, and certainly fectively involve not only the participants on the Senate committee, is to increase the the floor but also the people who tapped into community’s understanding of and interest in the web site, who attended through the gal- constitutional issues, so I am glad that one of lery and who viewed the deliberative proc- the recommendations arising out of this re- esses and issues on television. I think it was port includes a strong focus on community quite an inclusive process; however, percep- education. tion is very important, as we know. I believe that the first step must be to Whether or not those perceptions are ac- reach an agreement that we do want to be- curate, the point is that the process towards a come a republic. Having actively partici- republic needs to be not only democratic but pated in this initial decision, more Austra- also perceived as being democratic. This is lians are likely to want to engage in the proc- not without its challenges. A truly democratic ess of working out the details. While not all process is one which is not only accessible, Australians may understand the complexities in the practical sense of having the opportu- of constitutional law, they do understand the nity to participate, but also intellectually ac- concept of an Australian head of state and cessible. People need to have access to in- they do have strong feelings about Austra- formation in order participate meaningfully. lia’s independence and national identity. I The difficulty with the republic debate is that think it is those sentiments, reflected in poll- it has the potential to alienate those who may ing over recent years, that are the reason we be unfamiliar with our current constitutional have such a high percentage of people indi- arrangements and therefore may have some cating that they support the notion of an Aus- difficulty or even a lack of interest in under- tralian head of state. Indeed, I would hazard standing the proposed changes. a guess that a majority of those in this place A 1987 study found that 47 per cent of would support the move to an Australian Australians were unaware that we have a head of state. Constitution. A later study by the Civics Ex- This inquiry has been made possible be- pert Group in 1994 reported that only 18 per cause politicians from every political party cent of Australians demonstrated some un- decided to work together constructively and, derstanding of the content of the Constitution in an attempt to gain consensus, we put our while only 41 per cent knew how the Consti- political allegiances aside for the sake of this tution could be changed. That is despite the important issue. I pay particular tribute to fact that a large majority who participated in Senator Payne and Senator Bolkus and of that survey had actually voted in some form course the secretariat for their work on this of referendum. issue. It reflects our view that the republic While the 1999 republic referendum and should be put back on the political agenda. the debates surrounding it helped to increase We need to keep building the momentum for

CHAMBER 142 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004 change that the majority of Australians want. involve constitutional experts and others As Victor Hugo once said: with relevant skills appointed by the parlia- There is one thing stronger than all the armies in ment, with special consideration being given the world, and that is an idea whose time has to ensuring that the make-up of the conven- come. tion reflects the diversity and difference There is no doubt that the time for an Austra- within the Australian community. Finally, the lian republic has come. But, as we know, proposed change to the Constitution should gaining popular support for the republic is be put to the people of Australia at a referen- not the major hurdle that we face. The bigger dum. challenge is trying to reach a consensus or, Although not everyone will necessarily more realistically, majority support in a ma- agree with this proposed way forward, it is jority of states for a particular model. important to recognise that, in making these That is why it was so important that the recommendations, the committee has taken Senate inquiry examined not only the issue into account the incredibly diverse range of of alternative models but also the process for views presented to us throughout this in- working towards achieving a republic. The quiry. More than anything, the inquiry repre- process will be crucial if we are to gain the sents our commitment to ensuring that the Australian community’s support for a par- process towards an Australian republic is an ticular model. In this respect, the committee inherently democratic process. This is vital if has recommended an initial plebiscite, ask- people are to have true ownership of and ing Australians whether Australia should pride in our changed Constitution. It is my become a republic with an Australian head of privilege to have been a participant in this state, separating it from the British monar- inquiry and I take the opportunity to thank chy. It is proposed that compulsory voting all my colleagues, the hardworking commit- apply in this particular plebiscite and that it tee secretariat and the hundreds of Austra- should be determined by a simple majority lians who participated in that process. I look vote. forward to us moving the process forward. Should this plebiscite be resolved in the I seek leave to continue my remarks later. affirmative, the committee recommends that Leave granted; debate adjourned. a second plebiscite, providing five alterna- Lindeberg Grievance Committee tive models and asking Australians to nomi- Report nate their preferred model, should be con- ducted. It is proposed that this plebiscite Senator WATSON (Tasmania) (6.17 should be determined by preferential vote p.m.)—I move: and that, once again, voting should be com- That the Senate take note of the report. pulsory. The Senate and its committees over the past A further recommendation of the commit- decade have devoted significant resources to tee is that this plebiscite should include other inquiring into matters raised and allegations relevant questions, such as the preferred title, made by Mr Lindeberg of Queensland. Mr for example, for an Australian head of state. Lindeberg has had ample opportunity to Following this plebiscite, the committee rec- make his case. Three inquiries have now ommends that a drafting convention be held been conducted into Mr Lindeberg’s allega- to finetune the details of the preferred model. tions that false and misleading evidence had It is envisaged that this convention would been given to the Senate committees but no

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 143 inquiry has been able to substantiate the alle- of the committee were deeply concerned by gations. The committee suggests therefore the abhorrent acts of abuse, particularly sex- that there would be little point in Mr Linde- ual abuse, raised in evidence to its inquiry. berg pursuing his grievance further in these But the members recognised that these spe- forums in the absence of compelling new and cific cases could not be resolved in a com- relevant evidence. The committee did not mittee of the Senate. A Senate committee seek to test its constitutional powers by at- cannot adjudicate on alleged criminal of- tempting to summons people who were, at fences. As you know, Mr Deputy President, the appropriate time, officers of a different these are matters for the Queensland legal branch of our Constitution—that is, the system, and it is up to them to make a refer- Queensland government. That would have ence or a determination. raised some surmountable constitutional is- Rather than report on specific cases, the sues and created many precedents. But the committee identified from the submissions number of persons who had been subject to and evidence received a number of systemic adverse comment under privilege by Mr issues contributing to the occurrence of these Lindeberg responded to that comment. Those abuses. But contrary to Senator Harris’s responses have been printed and presented to statement yesterday, the committee’s report the Deputy President. The only new matter concurred with the view that, had the alleged raised in the inquiry is an allegation that the abuses been thoroughly investigated earlier, Heiner documents were destroyed to conceal future incidents may have been averted. But evidence of sexual assault at a youth deten- Senator Harris also spoke yesterday about tion centre in Queensland. There is no reason the Queensland Criminal Code, specifically to suppose that Mr Heiner took such evi- the section relating to the destruction of evi- dence. In fact, the House of Representatives dence. Senator Harris quoted sections from report on this matter, Crime in the Commu- different drafts of that code. But Senator nity, reported at page 74 that Mr Heiner ve- Harris should know that the wording of that hemently denied that anybody told him about section of the code was never an issue for a pack rape. this particular inquiry. What was important I now want to comment on matters raised were the interpretations of the law given to by another senator and member of the com- previous committees and whether those in- mittee. Senator Harris gave an impassioned terpretations were deliberately misleading. speech yesterday on the report of the Senate Senator Harris, with complete disregard Select Committee on the Lindeberg Griev- for the evidence, claimed in his speech that ance, criticising amongst other things the Mr O’Regan gave opposing views to the conduct of the inquiry, especially in its later Queensland government and to the Senate. It stages. I am deeply disappointed that Senator is simply specious to rely merely on unsub- Harris has used the privileges of this cham- stantiated claims to make such a charge. The ber in such a manner. Not only has he mis- committee does not have evidence to support represented the committee’s considerations this. The committee has no evidence relating and its report, but he has also made conclu- to the legal opinions Mr O’Regan may or sions with scant regard for the evidence or may not have given to the Queensland gov- the facts. Senator Harris focused in his ernment. To describe the committee’s report speech on the issue of child abuse, but his as ‘an absolute travesty’ reflects Senator Har- words in no way reflect the committee’s con- ris’s limited engagement with this inquiry— sideration of this issue. In fact, all members which was indeed unfortunate—and his in-

CHAMBER 144 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004 ability to grasp the specific fundamental is- it could fully test the allegation. The Queen- sues before the committee. We were not set sland government did not respond to that up to examine the issues of child abuse and request. While the document was not forth- rape. coming, Senator Harris is simply incorrect in Unfortunately, many assertions were saying that the Queensland government re- made. Much speculation was presented as fused to provide it. It is very unfortunate that ‘evidence’. In a thorough and impartial man- the document was not provided as it was an ner, the committee unravelled all the allega- opportunity for the Queensland government tions before it to focus on those germane to to lay the allegations finally to rest. Without any possible contempt of the Senate. Four an original copy of the document, the com- such allegations were identified. The first mittee made its conclusions on the available was that contrived interpretations of Queen- evidence, not on the basis of hearsay or ru- sland law, in particular section 129 of the mour. The committee considered that the Queensland Criminal Code, were given to reasons originally given for altering the previous Senate inquiries. The second was documents were perfectly reasonable—that that a document known as ‘document 13’ is, certain words in the document had been was deliberately tampered with to obstruct a blacked out to protect the identity of children Senate committee. The third was that evi- named in it. The available evidence could not dence of pack-rape and sexual assault of a substantiate a finding of contempt in this minor was deliberately withheld from a pre- matter. vious committee. The fourth was that wit- On the third allegation, it was not estab- nesses failed to disclose evidence relating to lished whether allegations of sexual abuse a deed of settlement between the manager of were made to the Heiner inquiry. This allega- the John Oxley Centre and the Queensland tion demonstrates that myth and confusion government. still surround the Lindeberg grievance. Some In relation to each of these allegations the have claimed, for example, that the Heiner committee was unable to substantiate Mr inquiry was established to investigate the Lindeberg’s allegations of contempt. In re- mistreatment of children at the John Oxley viewing the evidence and forming its conclu- Centre. While the Heiner inquiry was estab- sions, the committee was guided by the lished at a time when reports of child abuse Clerk’s advice that for a finding of contempt at the centre were being aired in the media, to be substantiated a culpable intention must those issues were not the reason for the be demonstrated. For example, in relation to Heiner inquiry. The Heiner inquiry related to the Queensland Criminal Code the commit- staff complaints about their manager. As I tee concluded that the interpretations given said earlier, Mr Heiner, in evidence to a by witnesses to previous committees were House of Representatives inquiry, said: probably incorrect. However, contrary to I vehemently deny anybody having spoken to me Senator Harris’s assertions, there was no evi- about a pack-rape. dence to prove that the interpretations were The committee could not find that evidence intended to mislead those committees. of sexual abuse was deliberately withheld With regard to the allegation of tampering from previous Senate committees. In the with evidence, the committee requested that fourth allegation, Mr Lindeberg claimed that the Queensland government provide an un- the payout and wording of the deed of set- edited copy of the relevant document so that tlement between Mr Coyne and the Queen- sland government were intended to conceal

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 145 child abuse and that this intention was delib- vertised closing date, giving them every opportu- erately withheld from previous Senate com- nity to present relevant evidence. mittees. After reviewing all the evidence, the This inquiry was conducted with the utmost re- committee found no basis for such a claim. gard for procedural fairness. The Committee scrupulously adhered to resolutions of the Senate, In addition to his principal allegations, including those relating to privilege and potential during the inquiry Mr Lindeberg made seri- adverse reflections, throughout the inquiry. At ous and wide-ranging allegations of personal several junctures during its consideration of the and institutional incompetence and corrup- evidence the Committee specifically sought the tion. Although the committee had serious procedural advice of the Clerk of the Senate. One reservations about publishing these allega- of the witnesses, Mr MacAdam, reported how tions, we did so in order to ensure that Mr courteously he had been treated by the Committee Lindeberg’s allegations were fully aired. The and commended the professional conduct of the committee invited the persons and institu- secretariat staff. It is quite inappropriate to sug- tions about whom allegations were made to gest that the inquiry was anything but thorough and considered. respond. Further to such allegations about individuals and institutions, Mr Lindeberg As it is, the Senate and its committees over the also expressed dissatisfaction with the con- past decade have devoted significant, scarce re- sources investigating matters raised by Mr Linde- duct and findings of previous Senate com- berg. Two previous select committees took evi- mittees. In a supplementary submission, Mr dence on Mr Lindeberg’s grievance as it related to Lindeberg has gone so far as to make offen- the treatment of whistleblowers. The Committee sive comments about the Senate itself. Mr of Privileges has twice investigated Mr Linde- Deputy President, as my time is about to ex- berg’s allegations that false and misleading evi- pire, I seek leave to incorporate the rest of dence was given to previous committees. Neither my speech in Hansard. of these inquiries substantiated Mr Lindeberg’s claims. Through this inquiry, the Senate has again Leave granted. devoted significant Committee and secretariat The speech read as follows— resources to investigating Mr Lindeberg’s claims. Mr Lindeberg’s supplementary submission states: We have analysed voluminous documentation submitted to past inquiries, along with material ‘I submit that by deliberate design in the provi- submitted to this inquiry, without substantiating sion of false and misleading evidence, the Senate Mr Lindeberg’s claims. has become an unwitting accomplice to the Queensland Government’s (and CJC) double It is obvious from the submissions received and standards in the application of criminal law. The the speeches made in this chamber that the Lin- Senate has had its prestige used as a ‘clearance deberg Grievance has become a highly charged come laundering house’, affording respectability matter. The Committee, in its report, has provided to conduct, which, had the truth been told or a thorough and impartial analysis of the evidence. known to the Senate at relevant times, it would The report, yet again, supports the conclusion that have seen it for what it always was: corruption of Mr Lindeberg’s allegations of misleading and the highest order—and doubtless would have contempt of the Senate cannot be substantiated. I reported accordingly in its findings.’ commend the report to the Senate. Despite fully airing Mr Lindeberg’s grievance, Question agreed to. including such wide-ranging gratuitous asser- tions, some members of the Committee are of the view that Mr Lindeberg has not been afforded adequate opportunity to state his case. However, the Committee indulged witnesses by continuing to accept submissions some months after the ad-

CHAMBER 146 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004

DOCUMENTS the next day of sitting, Senator Webber in Consideration continuation. Economics Legislation Committee— The following orders of the day relating to Report—Annual reports (No. 2 of 2004), committee reports and government responses September 2004. Motion to take note of were considered: report moved by Senator Webber. Debate National Capital and External Territories— adjourned till the next day of sitting, Sena- Joint Standing Committee—Report— tor Webber in continuation. Indian Ocean territories: Review of the an- Employment, Workplace Relations and nual reports of the Department of Trans- Education Legislation Committee— port and Regional Services and the De- Report—Annual reports (No. 2 of 2004), partment of the Environment and Heritage. September 2004. Motion to take note of Motion to take note of report moved by report moved by Senator Webber. Debate Senator George Campbell. Debate ad- adjourned till the next day of sitting, Sena- journed till the next day of sitting, Senator tor Webber in continuation. George Campbell in continuation. Environment, Communications, Informa- National Capital and External Territories— tion Technology and the Arts Legislation Joint Standing Committee—Report— Committee—Report—Annual reports (No. Difficult choices: Inquiry into the role of 2 of 2004), September 2004. Motion to the National Capital Authority in determin- take note of report moved by Senator Web- ing the extent of redevelopment of the ber. Debate adjourned till the next day of Pierces Creek Settlement in the ACT. Mo- sitting, Senator Webber in continuation. tion to take note of report moved by Sena- Finance and Public Administration Legis- tor George Campbell. Debate adjourned till lation Committee—Report—Annual re- the next day of sitting, Senator George ports (No. 2 of 2004), September 2004. Campbell in continuation. Motion to take note of report moved by Australian Crime Commission—Joint Senator Webber. Debate adjourned till the Statutory Committee—Report—Exami- next day of sitting, Senator Webber in con- ation of the annual report for 2002-03 of tinuation. the National Crime Authority and the Aus- Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Legis- tralian Crime Commission. Motion to take lation Committee—Report—Annual re- note of report moved by Senator George ports (No. 2 of 2004), September 2004. Campbell. Debate adjourned till the next Motion to take note of report moved by day of sitting, Senator George Campbell in Senator Webber. Debate adjourned till the continuation. next day of sitting, Senator Webber in con- Administration of Indigenous Affairs— tinuation. Select Committee—Interim report. Motion Legal and Constitutional Legislation to take note of report moved by Senator Committee—Report—Annual reports (No. George Campbell. Debate adjourned till 2 of 2004), September 2004. Motion to the next day of sitting, Senator George take note of report moved by Senator Web- Campbell in continuation. ber. Debate adjourned till the next day of Employment, Workplace Relations and sitting, Senator Webber in continuation. Education Legislation Committee— Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport Report—Provisions of the Higher Educa- Legislation Committee—Report—Annual tion Legislation Amendment Bill (No. 3) reports (No. 2 of 2004), including final re- 2004. Motion to take note of report moved port on the administration of the Civil by Senator Webber. Debate adjourned till Aviation Safety Authority, September 2004. Motion to take note of report moved

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by Senator Webber. Debate adjourned till bate adjourned till the next day of sitting, the next day of sitting, Senator Webber in Senator Webber in continuation. continuation. Legal and Constitutional Legislation Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport Committee—Report—Marriage Amend- Legislation Committee—Report— ment Bill 2004. Motion to take note of re- Provisions of the Agriculture, Fisheries and port moved by Senator Webber. Debate ad- Forestry Legislation Amendment Bill (No. journed till the next day of sitting, Senator 2) 2004. Motion to take note of report Webber in continuation. moved by Senator Webber. Debate ad- Legal and Constitutional Legislation journed till the next day of sitting, Senator Committee—Report—Provisions of the Webber in continuation. Criminal Code Amendment (Suicide Re- Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport lated Material Offences) Bill 2004. Motion References Committee—Report— to take note of report moved by Senator Australian forest plantations: A review of Webber. Debate adjourned till the next day Plantations for Australia: The 2020 Vision. of sitting, Senator Webber in continuation. Motion to take note of report moved by Finance and Public Administration Legis- Senator Webber. Debate adjourned till the lation Committee—Report—Annual re- next day of sitting, Senator Webber in con- ports (No. 2 of 2004), September 2004— tinuation. Corrigendum. Motion to take note of report Environment, Communications, Informa- moved by Senator Webber. Debate ad- tion Technology and the Arts References journed till the next day of sitting, Senator Committee—Interim report—Budgetary Webber in continuation. and environmental implications of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Refer- Government’s energy white paper. Motion ences Committee—Interim report— to take note of report moved by Senator Inquiry into the effectiveness of Australia’s Webber. Debate adjourned till the next day military justice system. Motion to take note of sitting, Senator Webber in continuation. of report moved by Senator Webber. De- Employment, Workplace Relations and bate adjourned till the next day of sitting, Education Legislation Committee— Senator Webber in continuation. Supplementary report—Provisions of the Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport Higher Education Legislation Amendment Legislation Committee—Interim report— Bill (No. 3) 2004. Motion to take note of Provisions of the National Animal Welfare report moved by Senator Webber. Debate Bill 2003. Motion to take note of report adjourned till the next day of sitting, Sena- moved by Senator Webber. Debate ad- tor Webber in continuation. journed till the next day of sitting, Senator Finance and Public Administration Refer- Webber in continuation. ences Committee—Interim report— Employment, Workplace Relations and Inquiry into government advertising and Education Legislation Committee— accountability. Motion to take note of re- Interim report—Provisions of the Work- port moved by Senator Webber. Debate ad- place Relations Amendment (Protecting journed till the next day of sitting, Senator Small Business Employment) Bill 2004. Webber in continuation. Motion to take note of report moved by Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport Senator Webber. Debate adjourned till the References Committee—Report— next day of sitting, Senator Webber in con- Australian forest plantations: A review of tinuation. Plantations for Australia: The 2020 Vi- Community Affairs Legislation Commit- sion—Corrigendum. Motion to take note tee—Report—Tobacco advertising prohibi- of report moved by Senator Webber. De- tion. Motion to take note of report moved

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by Senator Wong. Debate adjourned till the The following orders of the day relating to next day of sitting, Senator Wong in con- reports of the Auditor-General were consid- tinuation. ered: Community Affairs References Commit- Auditor-General—Audit report no. 10 of tee—Interim report—Inquiry into aged 2004-05—Business support process au- care. Motion to take note of report moved dit—The Senate order for departmental by Senator Wong. Debate adjourned till the and agency contracts (calendar year 2003 next day of sitting, Senator Wong in con- compliance). Motion to take note of report tinuation. moved by Senator Webber. Debate ad- Legal and Constitutional References journed till the next day of sitting, Senator Committee—Interim report—Inquiry into Webber in continuation. Australian expatriates. Motion to take note Auditor-General—Report for 2003-04. of report moved by Senator Wong. Debate Motion to take note of report moved by adjourned till the next day of sitting, Sena- Senator Webber. Debate adjourned till the tor Wong in continuation. next day of sitting, Senator Webber in con- Employment, Workplace Relations and tinuation. Education References Committee—Interim Auditor-General—Audit report no. 11 of report—Inquiry into lifelong learning. Mo- 2004-05—Performance audit—Common- tion to take note of report moved by Sena- wealth entities’ foreign exchange risk man- tor Wong. Debate adjourned till the next agement: Department of Finance and Ad- day of sitting, Senator Wong in continua- ministration. Motion to take note of report tion. moved by Senator Webber. Debate ad- Employment, Workplace Relations and journed till the next day of sitting, Senator Education References Committee—Interim Webber in continuation. report—Inquiry into Indigenous training Auditor-General—Audit report no. 12 of and employment. Motion to take note of 2004-05—Performance audit—Research report moved by Senator Wong. Debate ad- project management follow-up audit: journed till the next day of sitting, Senator Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Wong in continuation. Research Organisation (CSIRO). Motion to Employment, Workplace Relations and take note of report moved by Senator Web- Education References Committee—Interim ber. Debate adjourned till the next day of report—Inquiry into student income sup- sitting, Senator Webber in continuation. port. Motion to take note of report moved Auditor-General—Audit report no. 13 of by Senator Webber. Debate adjourned till 2004-05—Business support process au- the next day of sitting, Senator Webber in dit—Superannuation payments for inde- continuation. pendent contractors working for the Aus- Employment, Workplace Relations and tralian Government. Motion to take note of Education Legislation Committee— report moved by Senator Webber. Debate Interim report—Inquiry into the proposed adjourned till the next day of sitting, Sena- amendment in the form of Schedule 1B to tor Webber in continuation. the Workplace Relations Amendment Auditor-General—Audit report no. 14 of (Codifying Contempt Offences) Bill 2004. 2004-05—Performance audit—Manage- Motion to take note of report moved by ment and promotion of citizenship ser- Senator Webber. Debate adjourned till the vices: Department of Immigration and next day of sitting, Senator Webber in con- Multicultural and Indigenous Affairs. Mo- tinuation. tion to take note of report moved by Sena- tor Webber. Debate adjourned till the next

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day of sitting, Senator Webber in continua- Senator Greig to replace Senator Al- tion. lison for matters relating to the In- COMMITTEES formation Technology portfolio Membership Senator Ridgeway to replace Senator Allison for matters relating to the The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—The Arts portfolio President has received letters from a party Legal and Constitutional Legislation leader seeking variations to the membership and References Committees–– of certain committees. Appointed—Substitute member: Sena- Senator COLBECK (Tasmania— tor Ridgeway to replace Senator Greig Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for for matters relating to the Indigenous Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) (6.29 Affairs portfolio. p.m.)—by leave—I move: Question agreed to. That senators be discharged from and ap- ADJOURNMENT pointed to committees as follows: The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Order! Economics Legislation Committee–– There being no further consideration of Appointed—Substitute member: Sena- committee reports, government responses tor Allison to replace Senator Murray and Auditor-General’s reports, I propose the for matters relating to the Resources question: portfolio That the Senate do now adjourn. Economics References Committee–– Superannuation and Pensions Appointed—Substitute member: Sena- tor Allison to replace Senator Ridgeway Senator WATSON (Tasmania) (6.30 for matters relating to the Resources p.m.)—The London Economist in March portfolio 2004 reported: Employment, Workplace Relations and The rise in the proportion of the world’s old will Education Legislation and References be the century’s defining demographic trend. In Committees–– some countries it may also determine the nature Appointed—Substitute members: of politics, rates of economic growth ... and global clout. Senator Allison to replace Senator Stott Despoja for matters relating to US Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld has the Schools and Training portfolio observed that old Europe countries such as Senator Cherry to replace Senator France, Germany and others will lose ground Stott Despoja for matters relating to against countries whose work forces are still the Employment portfolio expanding. A report from Britain’s official Senator Murray to replace Senator Pensions Commissioner said that for the past Stott Despoja for matters relating to 20 years governments and companies had the Workplace Relations portfolio been living in a fool’s paradise in which eve- Environment, Communications, Infor- rybody was fooled. It was now time to come mation Technology and the Arts Legisla- back to reality. Significant changes indeed tion Committee–– are under way in Sweden, Hong Kong, Sin- Appointed—Substitute members: gapore, the EU, Mexico and Chile. The Brit- Senator Cherry to replace Senator ish report has found that British workers will Allison for matters relating to the have to save more and retire later to make up Communications portfolio for an alarming gap in pension savings. Due

CHAMBER 150 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004 to an increase in life expectancy, the number the development of capital markets, lower of retirees will rise rapidly over the next 35 capital cost and lower security price volatil- years and many will face relative poverty if ity. Such privately managed schemes in- the savings gap is not filled. The Pensions crease investment and promote economic Commissioner, Mr Adair Turner, said that a growth and productivity. Mr Bill Shipman, a crisis that could be happening in 15 or 20 former principal with the largest custodian of years could occur if plans are not made to pension funds in the United States, State tackle it now. British Prime Minister, Tony Street, has written extensively on and ad- Blair, has promised, following the report, vised governments on the benefits of private that he will set out proposals to address the pension plans. The thrust of his argument is pensions crisis. He said that we must change that direct individual investment in capital the culture so that people cannot be written markets provides higher return and greater off at age 65, if not 60 or 55. Mr Turner, the financial security than the government redis- report author, warned that individuals would tributive PAYG pension plans—that is, the have to realise that if they want to retire at 60 pay-as-you-go plans—where benefits are or 65 they will probably have to save rather a dependent on a sufficiently large and grow- lot. ing work force whose members are willing to While many countries around the world accept increasingly higher tax obligations. are looking at pension reform, few have Mr Shipman maintains that returns under given adequate attention to the escalating private pensions are higher than under gov- health costs of the elderly. In fact, these ernment systems. Political risk under pri- could well equal or be greater than a coun- vately managed pensions is also lower com- try’s pension burden. In Australia there is an pared to the traditional government managed attitude by some in the community of a de- social security systems. sire to retire at the earliest possible age with I now wish to comment on weaknesses as the superannuation guarantee but a failure to I see them in the Labor Party’s current re- recognise that these savings alone will not tirement income policies. Honourable sena- provide enough money for them to maintain tors will acknowledge that in the lead-up to an adequate standard of living in their ex- the last election the ALP promised to abolish tended retirement. I commend to the Senate a almost immediately the government’s popu- recent report issued by the Certified Practis- lar co-contribution in relation to superannua- ing Accountants of Australia. In fact there is tion. This position was contrary to the views a need to change behaviour to move away of the ACTU Secretary, Greg Combet. The from the expectation that for most we cannot party also opposed a reduction in the sur- retire at 55 and play golf or fish at will solely charge. Both matters were out of step with through the superannuation guarantee ar- community perceptions about encouraging rangements. Increasingly, governments are savings levels in the community for older realising that early retirement is not afford- age. With due respect, I believe that the La- able. While countries such as Italy and Spain bor Party must now sift through the ashes of are the most vulnerable to the rising costs of the 2004 election and make some conclu- old age, fortunately Australia is not yet in sions about how to go about policy develop- this position. ments in the retirement incomes area come The International Council for Capital 2007. Formation has found that privately managed If they have not come to any firm conclu- pension schemes contribute significantly to sions at this stage then I believe their former

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 151 leader certainly has. I must say I believe that Labor really should do a I am not always in vehement agreement with computer search and find some of the recent Paul Keating, but I believe his statements on polling data on financial planners. If Labor the operation of free and contestable markets wants to attack planners, then why not attack are sound. In a recent statement Mr Keating builders, plumbers, surgeons and doctors and said that Labor should not be scared of mar- say that their fees should be capped? Indeed, kets. To the contrary, they should embrace if there were a problem with public transport markets, as they underpin the success of the would Labor contemplate capping or ban- Australian economy. Where would we be ning wages in that sector? The recent finan- had the markets not been able to prevail in cial planning surveys show high levels of the currency and foreign trade areas? Where value-for-money service. I believe such a would productivity be had successive Labor computer search would also reveal the Blair and coalition governments not intervened to government’s recent backflip on fee capping free up, for example, markets in labour? Dur- in the United Kingdom. The UK stakeholder ing the Keating years, Labor’s policy on su- pension regime, whereby fees were capped at per was, essentially, a market approach. one per cent, ensured that only a small num- Regulation is there to protect individuals ber of companies were prepared to offer the from fraud and the less transparent dealings product. So what was Blair forced to do? He on the parts of some super trustees, financial had to raise the cap above the economic advisers and funds managers—as you well shutdown point, and it is now 1.5 per cent. know, Mr Deputy President, as you have Her Majesty’s web site has the details of the contributed significantly to our debates in new regime. The facts are that the old UK committees on this issue. regime locked low-income earners out of But this market approach has gained mo- advice and product which they, more than mentum under the coalition. The market is any others, needed. working, with no systemic failures akin to So we are waiting for Labor’s next state- those that have taken place in the UK, South ment on advice and super. Will it be more of America and the US. I was therefore sur- the same? Will it be to regulate more? Or prised that Labor rejected its markets doc- will it be, ‘There has been a handful of prob- trine in the 2004 election in favour of strong lems there so let’s have a new regulation for intervention and strong regulation. I believe 10,000 honest players’? Or will the nostrums that Labor wanted to adopt a revisionist ap- of Labor’s superarchitect, Paul Keating, pre- proach to labour markets, and in superannua- vail? Only time will tell, but under the cur- tion it peddled the line that financial planners rent regime I believe we will have to wait for needed to have their wings clipped by way of some time. banning certain fees and payments and cap- Asbestos Awareness Week ping certain product prices. What Labor ne- Senator MARSHALL (Victoria) (6.39 glected to take into account is that in most p.m.)—I rise this evening to bring to the cases clients actually receive a valuable ser- Senate’s attention that next week throughout vice from their financial planners and think Australia is Asbestos Awareness Week. As- they get value for money—and most do. In bestos Awareness Week is held to highlight fact, they resent any political party dictating the health and social implications of and the to them the price and features of any good or political issues surrounding asbestos and the service. diseases it causes in Australia. The week is

CHAMBER 152 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004 also an opportunity to again honour and re- The two subsidiary companies referred to by member all those who have painfully lost Mr Baxter in his letter to me— their lives to asbestos-related diseases. Of In my opinion, they will be exhausted in the first particular note in this regard is a commemo- half of 2007 and it has no prospect of meeting the ration service to be held at Melbourne’s the liabilities of Amaca and Amaba in either the me- Edge Theatre, at Federation Square, next dium or the long term. Friday, 26 November, from 12.30 p.m. So was Mr Gordon correct after all? It seems One year ago, I rose in this place to raise so. Mr Baxter’s letter, full of mistruths and in the Senate the issue of asbestos and to disingenuous statements as it was, did indeed promote last year’s Asbestos Awareness make one fair point. In closing Mr Baxter Week. Since then much has happened on the wrote in his letter: asbestos front. Following my speech last We believe it is not only important that the facts year, I received a letter from the Executive about James Hardie and asbestos are widely Vice-President, Corporate Affairs, James known and well understood, we think it is also Hardie Industries, Mr Greg Baxter, who imperative that a comprehensive solution is de- sought to refute numerous claims made by veloped to address the broader issues now con- me in my speech at that time. My speech last fronting the wider community. year referred to a number of quotes made by Well, indeed! Thank goodness the Carr La- Mr Peter Gordon, from the law firm Slater bor government set that train on course. Let and Gordon, in an advertorial featured in the us hope that eventually James Hardie comes Herald Sun on 25 November last year. In his to the party and commits to the spirit of Mr letter Mr Baxter argues: Baxter’s letter to me last year. Over the past Mr Gordon also claims that James Hardie set up a 75 years, millions of Australians have been company with “clearly inadequate funding to deal exposed to asbestos at work, at home, at with compensation...” This is also incorrect. The schools and at many other public places Foundation that was established by James Hardie around the country. Sadly, more than 2,500 was vested with all of the assets of the two former asbestos-caused deaths occur in Australia subsidiaries that had manufactured asbestos con- each year now. Due to the long latency pe- taining products, as well as an additional $90 riod between the exposure to asbestos fibres million beyond any legal obligation owed by and the manifestation of asbestos disease, these subsidiaries. This additional amount, en- which is often up to 30 years or more, the abled the Foundation to be established with assets epidemic of asbestos-related diseases is yet that actuarial advice indicated would be sufficient to meet all expected future claims. to peak in this country. It is expected that this will occur in around 2023, so according to What a joke of a claim that has been proven this figure we will have another 20 or so to be. In February this year, the New South years until we have hit the peak of the prob- Wales Carr Labor government launched the lem. As many as 45,000 persons, it is ex- Commission of Inquiry into Medical Re- pected, may die from asbestos-related dis- search and Compensation Foundation, the eases in Australia over the next two decades James Hardie asbestos victims compensation if effective medical treatments are not found. foundation. At page 7 of his report, under section 1.4, Commissioner Jackson QC Asbestos is the known cause of numerous stated: diseases which include, but certainly cannot limited to, the following: lung diseases, in- The Foundation’s funds are being quickly used up in the payment of current claims against Amaca cluding asbestosis, pleural plaques and lung and Amaba— cancer; mesothelioma; cancer of the gastro-

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 153 intestinal tract; cancer of the larynx; and responsibilities and continued to produce and cancer of the bowel. From time to time other make massive profit from asbestos and its organs and systems are believed to be the related products. James Hardie defended its sites of malignant change due to asbestos as first asbestosis death case in Sydney in the well. 1930s. However, it was not until 1978, years Over the years, more than 3,000 asbestos after other companies had done so, that products and their uses have been identified. James Hardie put a warning on its asbestos Most Australian homes contain asbestos products. As I said last year—and I reiterate products in one form or another. Asbestos here—this company is an absolute disgrace. has been used in fencing, asbestos pipes, In conclusion, I would like to take this thermal insulation, fireproofing, paints and opportunity to pay special respect to all of sealants, textiles such as felts and theatre those who work and volunteer to promote the curtains, gaskets and friction products such issues around asbestos and the diseases re- as brake linings and clutches. During the lated to it and with the victims of such dis- peak building years—the 1950s, 1960s and eases. I should also take this opportunity to 1970s—asbestos found its way into most recognise the hard work of the trade union public buildings, including hospitals, movement in furthering this issue over the schools, libraries, office blocks and factories. past few years. I am proud to be a member of Workplaces such as ships’ engine rooms and a political party that refuses to take blood power stations were heavily insulated with money from a company such as James Har- sprayed limpet asbestos. die. I was very pleased that Labor, under the As such, asbestos diseases are no longer leadership of Mark Latham, committed all contracted by the miners of asbestos exclu- funds received from James Hardie since sively. Occupational exposure to lethal as- 2001 to go directly to asbestos victims so bestos among former workers in the asbestos that they can further their fight against this manufacturing industry, government rail- corporate menace. ways, electrical commissions, wharves and I finish tonight by reminding the Senate the building industry, and Defence personnel and those listening on radio, particularly in the Navy, Army and Air Force, is now those in Melbourne and Victoria, that the producing lung cancers, mesothelioma, as- commemoration service to remember those bestosis and pleural diseases of significant who have lost their lives to asbestos related proportions. Tragically, asbestos diseases not diseases will be taking place next Friday, connected to occupation are also now emerg- 26 November, from 12.30 p.m. at the Edge ing among those in the broader community. Theatre in Federation Square. I encourage Companies like James Hardie, CSR and everyone and anyone who can to go along Wunderlich manufactured most of the asbes- and support Asbestos Awareness Week and tos products that have been used in thou- the victims of James Hardie and asbestos sands of commercial and private buildings in related diseases. Australia and, regardless of what is said in Mr Tchen Hou-jou the face of prospective litigation, all knew Senator TCHEN (Victoria) (6.48 p.m.)— about the effect these products would have Tonight I rise to speak on a matter of per- on the health of employees and on members sonal closeness to me—the life and time of of the wider community. Unfortunately, these Mr Tchen Hou-jou, who passed away on companies shirked their social and corporate Sunday, 14 November, in Melbourne. Mr

CHAMBER 154 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004

Tchen Hou-jou was Chinese by birth and it settled in Yangzhou in the aftermath of the Australian by adoption—for him, both proud Manchurian conquest of China. and fortunate attributes. He was a man of Earlier generations of the Tchen family peace by nature and a resourceful and fear- were merchants, but after nine generations less fighter for justice and fairness by con- the family was of sufficient substance to viction. He was, by the heritage of his cul- convert to scholar class, that peculiarly Chi- ture, a meritocrat whereby one is judged by nese Confucian concept that held public ser- one’s achievements but, by persuasion, a vice to be the highest form of aspiration and democrat whereby one is valued regardless that the privilege of holding public offices of one’s station. should be achieved through public examina- He was born in 1912, in the first year of tions and retained through meritorious ser- the new Republic of China, established after vice. Successes at public service examina- the abdication of the Manchurian Ching Dy- tions at the highest level followed, and the nasty emperor of the old Chinese Empire and next three generations all achieved high of- following the successful republic revolution fices, together with a high reputation of in- on 10 October 1911, in the central Chinese corruptibility and fairness in conduct. Mr city of Wuhan. So he was born into a time of Tchen’s name, Hou-jou, meaning ‘of sub- uncertainty and instability which, unfortu- stantive scholarship’, reflects the family val- nately for him and his generation, pro- ues and expectation. gressed—if that process could be called pro- The next two generations of the Tchen gress—through a long period, lasting practi- family, Mr Tchen’s father and grandfather, cally all his life, of constant and destructive had little opportunity to contribute to the upheavals in China and in the world. The community, like their forebears did, due to 20th century had been a time of relentless the gradual breaking down of Chinese soci- and great change, including two destructive ety compounded by the external threat of great wars, innumerable lesser wars, a great European imperialism to China. But the fam- depression, many and varied recessions— ily tradition ran strong and, at age 14, Mr including some that were good for us—and Tchen Hou-jou left his ancestral home in societal changes beyond imagination during rural Yangzhou, never to return, and went to the first decade of that century. But with for- Shanghai, where he matriculated and at- titude and a fair measure of good fortune, Mr tended the famous Jesuit-run Aurora Univer- Tchen was able to make it through to spend sity, called Zhendan—meaning ‘the thunder his last years enjoying a measurable degree of dawning’ in Chinese—and graduated with of security and tranquillity in one of the few a law degree at age 19. places in the world that could provide it, in He was appointed a local examining mag- Australia. istrate in Anhui Province, upstream on the Mr Tchen was born in Yizheng county in Yangtze from Nanjing, then China’s national the historic Yangzhou, a city in decline from capital. In those days, the Chinese legal sys- its former glories as a premier commercial tem followed the European model, and the and cultural centre on the northern bank of examining magistrate had something of a the Yangtze River at the junction of the combined role of public prosecutor, public Grand Canal, but nevertheless a city of some defender and judge for the preliminary hear- importance. His family history traced back ings—not an easy task to fulfil, especially 14 generations to the mid-17th century, when for a 19-year-old. Not much is known about

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 155

Mr Tchen’s performance as a junior examin- years, eventually becoming a substantive ing magistrate, except that he was neither vice-consul. In 1954, following the ceasefire assassinated nor jailed in the course of his agreement between the French colonial gov- work, so he probably did reasonably well. ernment and the communist Vietmin gov- After a few years at court, Mr Tchen ernment in Geneva, Vietnam was partitioned joined the staff of Mr Ding Chun Gao, a de- into north and south and a large proportion of scendant of another scholarly family famous Haiphong’s population, especially the ethnic for incorruptibility and fairness as public Chinese, were evacuated to the south. Mr officials, who then headed a central govern- Tchen played a large role in managing the ment commission to establish a national evacuation before returning to Taiwan, where taxation system in those provinces under the the government of the Republic of China had control of the Chinese national government. moved in 1949. Mr Tchen served in the Chi- This was a perilous task, as the national gov- nese foreign affairs ministry from 1954 to ernment’s ability to influence events in most 1957, when he was posted to Tahiti, French of the areas nominally under its control was Polynesia, as consul-general. He was again nothing more than that—nominal—and the successful in his post as an advocate of the local warlords were understandably un- sizeable Chinese population in Tahiti. Nota- friendly. It was not a task for the faint- bly, he successfully persuaded the French hearted nor the foolhardy, but Mr Tchen did Polynesian government to abolish a dis- well enough to become Mr Ding’s chief of criminatory poll tax applicable only to the and often only staff. Chinese population. In 1938 Mr Tchen married Mr Ding’s In 1960 Mr Tchen was posted to the Chi- daughter, Mohsien. They were together for nese embassy in Senegal, where he was 41 years, until Mrs Tchen passed away in charge d’affaires. There he began his career 1989. They had five children—four sons and as a diplomatic officer instead of a consular one daughter. Mr Tchen joined the Chinese officer. He was engaged in a constant strug- diplomatic service in 1940 in Chongqing, the gle between the two governments purporting then temporary national capital of China. In to represent the whole of China—the Repub- 1942 he was posted to Iran, to the Chinese lic of China government in Taiwan and the embassy in Teheran, as a junior diplomatic People’s Republic of China government in officer. Here he achieved the unusual distinc- Beijing. It was a constant struggle for foreign tion of successfully complaining against the recognition and a seat at the United Nations. ambassador for inappropriate use of embassy In 1964 the Senegal government recognised funds. The ambassador was relieved of his the Beijing government, whereupon Mr duties and Mr Tchen was rewarded, in due Tchen was sent to Vietnam as deputy ambas- course, by being sent to the small port city of sador in Saigon, where he spent two years. Haiphong in North Vietnam as probationary The four-year term spent in Senegal was ac- vice-consul in 1947. tually longer than most people were able to serve and demonstrates his ability to develop As in many South-East Asian cities, personal relationships with the government Haiphong had a sizeable Chinese population, in that place. and Mr Tchen became a popular consular representative for the Chinese government In 1966, he was sent to the Republic of even though that government was itself less Dahomey, now called Benin, again in West than popular. He was in Haiphong for seven Africa, where he stayed until 1973, maintain- ing recognition of the ROC nationalist Chi-

CHAMBER 156 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004 nese government throughout this period. In DOCUMENTS 1973, Dahomey recognised the PRC gov- Tabling ernment as the government of China, and Mr The following documents were tabled by Tchen returned to Taiwan where he became a the Clerk: ministerial counsellor at the foreign ministry there. In 1975 he retired and came to live in Acts Interpretation Act—Statement pursu- Australia. He developed his English, learned ant to subsection— to play bowls, became a pillar of his bowling 34C(6) relating to the extension of club and was known popularly as Harold to specified period for presentation of a report—Department of Employment all his friends. He also developed an admira- and Workplace Relations—Report for tion for our Prime Minister as a leader of 2003-04. international status. 34C(7) relating to the delay in presenta- Mr Tchen died last Sunday following tion of a report—National Occupational complications from myelodysplasia—an Health and Safety Commission—Report acute form of anemia. My father was laid to for 2003-04. rest alongside my mother in Springvale Higher Education Support Act— Cemetery on Wednesday. I would like to take Determination under section 36-15, dated this opportunity to record my thanks to Pro- 31 August 2004. fessor Yen Ling Lim and his colleagues at Parliamentary Entitlements Act— Epworth Hospital and also to the Melbourne Parliamentary Entitlements Regulations— Chinese Christian Church of Glen Iris for Advice of decision to pay assistance their fellowship. I thank the Senate for its under paragraph 18(a), dated 30 August; courtesy to me. and 14 October 2004. The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT Consolidated statement of expenditure (Senator Watson)—Thank you very much under paragraph 18(b), dated 16 No- for that very moving tribute to your father. vember 2004. Senate adjourned at 6.59 p.m.

CHAMBER Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 157

QUESTIONS ON NOTICE The following answers to questions were circulated:

Defence: Information Technology Equipment (Question No. 3126) Senator Chris Evans asked the Minister for Defence, upon notice, on 3 August 2004: (1) Does the department have guidelines for the disposal of computers, monitors, printers and other information technology (IT) equipment no longer required by Defence; if so, can a copy of the guidelines be provided. (2) How many computers, monitors, printers and other items of IT equipment have been disposed of by Defence in each of the past 3 financial years. (3) How was equipment disposed of in each of the past 3 financial years (for example, sold directly by Defence, sold to a commercial business, donated to charitable or educational institutions, destroyed etc). (4) What were the sale values of all IT equipment disposed of in each of the past 3 financial years. (5) How many IT items have been destroyed by Defence in each of the past 3 financial years. (6) On what basis was this equipment destroyed. (7) Why was this equipment not sold or donated to charitable or educational institutions rather than destroyed. (8) What is the estimated value of all IT equipment destroyed by Defence in each of the past 3 finan- cial years. (9) Why does Defence not sell or donate IT equipment to charitable or educational institutions. Senator Hill—The answer to the honourable senator’s question is as follows: (1) Yes. Guidelines and policy relating to the disposal of IT assets exist within the following publica- tions: Defence Instruction (General) LOG 07-5 Disposal of Surplus Assets and Inventory The Defence Security Manual (SECMAN) Defence Reference Book 48 – Accounting Manual National Asset Management Office - Policy and Operating Procedures The Defence Supply Chain Manual A copy of the DI(G) LOG 07-5, which is the main policy document, has been forwarded separately to your office. (2) Asset Type 2001-02 2002-03 2003-04 Desktop 5,567 27,327 17,023 Laptop 289 602 563 Server 146 197 240 Monitor 2,488 8,223 9,411 Printer 1,208 2,739 2,781 Other 1 1,263 2,272 3,477 Total 10,961 41,360 33,495

QUESTIONS ON NOTICE 158 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004

Note: Other includes such equipment as power supplies, tape drives, modems, optical readers, scanners, mouse, etc (3) Disposal Method 2001-02 2002-03 2003-04 Auctioned 4,466 7,604 10,745 Destroyed 4,508 4,972 7,859 Direct Sale 0 0 43 Donated 1,936 28,670 14,833 Other 51 114 15 Total 10,961 41,360 33,495 (4) The revenue returned from auction in the table below is exclusive of equipment taken up by the Commonwealth Government’s Computer Technologies for Schools Project. Financial Year Sale Value ($) 2001-02 20,518 2002-03 140,629 2003-04 195,271 (5) See response to part (3). (6) Equipment is destroyed due to security requirements under SECMAN, or due to its poor state. (7) See response to part (6). (8) Written Down Value ($) Assets Destroyed 2001-02 500,000 Assets Destroyed 2002-03 900,000 Assets Destroyed 2003-04 1,200,000 (9) Defence does donate equipment, in accordance with the security requirements under SECMAN, through the Commonwealth Government’s Computer Technologies for Schools Project. Defence: Project Sea 1405 (Question No. 3145) Senator Chris Evans asked the Minister for Defence, upon notice, on 4 August 2004: With reference to Project Sea 1405: (1) Can an update be provided of how phases 1 and 2 of this project, which will upgrade the Seahawk helicopters with Forward Looking Infra Red (FLIR) and Electronic Support Measures (ESM) ca- pability, are proceeding. (2) What are some of the problems being experienced with this project. (3) Has there been any legal action between the Commonwealth and the prime contractor, Tenix, in relation to this project; if so, what was this action in relation to. (4) Is it correct that this action has now been settled out of court; if so: (a) can the details of the settle- ment be outlined; and (b) how much money was paid to the contractor as part of the settlement. (5) (a) How much did Defence spend on legal representation on this case; and (b) can details be pro- vided of lawyers hired and all payments made. (6) How much of the $170.9 million budget for this project has now been spent. (7) How many of the 16 Seahawk helicopters have been upgraded to date.

QUESTIONS ON NOTICE Thursday, 18 November 2004 SENATE 159

(8) Is it possible to upgrade the remaining aircraft with the remaining balance of the project budget; if so, how. (9) Was this project initially to be delivered in 2002. (10) (a) What is the current expected delivery date; and (b) what is the reason for the delay. (11) Were the delays associated with the FLIR and ESM upgrades a factor in delaying the larger Sea- hawk upgrade project by 3 years in the new Defence Capability Plan (DCP). (12) Did these delays also cause the budget to increase from $600 million in the previous DCP to $1 billion in the new DCP. Senator Hill—The answer to the honourable senator’s question is as follows: (1) The prototype aircraft has been modified and is well advanced in the testing phase with all new systems installed and powered. The modifications to the software support centre at Nowra have been accepted and the Seahawk simulator has been physically modified to represent the new air- craft standard. Actual acceptance of the prototype helicopter is now forecast for April 2005. Modi- fication of the remaining 15 aircraft is scheduled to commence in March 2005 with the final air- craft completing the production phase in November 2007. (2) The prime contractor Tenix has encountered a number of difficulties in delivering the contracted upgrade, including integration of the software systems, and integration of the aircraft’s Electronic Warfare Suite. (3) There has been no legal action. (4) Differences between Defence and Tenix in progressing this project were settled through negotiation at the Chief Executive Officer level of the Defence Materiel Organisation and Tenix. (a) The settlement is pragmatic and commercially appropriate with concessions agreed by both parties. The Deed provides Defence with improved schedule surety, early access to Intellectual Property, and brings a number of previously out of scope activities into scope. The Deed has sub- stantially reduced the overall project risk to the Commonwealth. (b) The settlement amount agreed is subject to a confidentiality clause agreed to under the Deed, but it is within the project’s budget. (5) (a) Defence spent $70,633 on legal representation in achieving this settlement; (b) Defence applied its own internal legal resources and also sought advice from the law firm of Blake Dawson Waldron. The total amount paid to Blake Dawson Waldron was $70,633. (6) At 31 July 2004, approximately 86 per cent ($148m) of the project’s funds had been spent. (7) One aircraft has been modified as the prototype aircraft. (8) Yes, the contract with Tenix will be completed within the project’s budget. The production phase in itself is a relatively low cost, low risk element of the contract. (9) No. The original contract date for the delivery of the final modified aircraft was April 2003. (10) (a) The current contract schedule forecasts the delivery of the final modified aircraft in November 2007. (b) See my response to Part (2). (11) No. (12) No.

QUESTIONS ON NOTICE 160 SENATE Thursday, 18 November 2004

Immigration: Children (Question No. 3174) Senator Bartlett asked the Minister for Immigration and Multicultural and Indigenous Af- fairs, upon notice, on 27 August 2004: (1) On 6 July 2004: (a) how many children were in ‘immigration detention’, as defined by the Migra- tion Act 1958; and (b) of these, how many were children of unauthorised boat arrivals. (2) (a) How many children are currently in ‘immigration detention’, as defined by the Migration Act 1958; and (b) of these, how many are children of unauthorised boat arrivals. Senator Vanstone—The answer to the honourable senator’s question is as follows: (1) (a) As at 6 July 2004, there were 62 children in immigration detention facilities on mainland Aus- tralia and on Christmas Island. Of these: - 36 were located in mainland immigration detention centres, - 15 were in the Port Augusta Residential Housing Project, - 11 were located on Christmas Island, In addition to the 62 children in facilities, 12 children were in alternative detention arrange- ments in the community. (b) As at 6 July 2004, one child whose parents arrived as unauthorised boat arrivals was in an immigration detention centre on mainland Australia and 11 children whose parents arrived as unau- thorised boat arrivals were located on Christmas Island. (2) (a) As at 6 October 2004, there were 55 children in immigration detention facilities on mainland Australia and Christmas Island. Of these: - 31 were located in mainland immigration detention centres, - 13 were in the Port Augusta Residential Housing Project, - 11 were located on Christmas Island. Of the 31 children in mainland immigration detention centres: - 30 have been detained as a result of compliance action. - 1 is the child of parents who arrived as unauthorised boat arrivals. In addition to the 55 children in facilities, 15 children were in alternative detention arrangements in the community and one child (detained on 4 October 2004) is being held on a boat in a harbour at Willie Creek and is awaiting removal. (b) As at 6 October 2004, one child whose parents arrived as unauthorised boat arrivals was being held in an immigration detention centre on mainland Australia and 11 children whose parents ar- rived as unauthorised boat arrivals were located on Christmas Island.

QUESTIONS ON NOTICE