[Tuesday, 24th April, 1979]63 639

high because of the tremendous impression he Iwvgialathwp Aueemhlg1! made. Tuesday, the 24th April, 1979 It was the privilege of some of us in this House to have worked with him during a very long part of his public life. Same of us on this side worked The SPEAKER (Mr Thompson) took the with him as Ministers. One Of Sir David's signs of Chair at 4.30 p.m., and read prayers. greatnesss was the fact that one never felt one was working under Sir David; one always felt as THE LATE SIR DAVID BRAND though one were working alongside him and with Condolence: Motion him. Once he gave one his word on any of the undertakings that one was committed to one could SIR CHARLES COURT (Nedlands-Premier) be assured-whether it be six months, 12 months, [4.32 p.m.]: I move, without notice- Or two years or any time later-that he would That this House records its sincere regret stand by it. at the death of the Honourable Sir David He had a capacity far beyond the capacity of Brand, K.C.M.G., a former member of this many men to understand real values, and having House and a former Premier of this State, made his assessment, he bad a complete places on record its appreciation of the long and devoted public service rendered by him commitment and loyalty to that assessment. to the people of Western Australia and It is a very sad time for those of us who knew tenders its deep sympathy to his widow and him so well. I want to record on behalf of my members of his family in their bereavement. colleagues that those or us who were very close to Mr Speaker, all members of this Chamber are him probably knew better than anyone, other than well aware of the many sides of the life and work his immediate family, just how much of himself, of the late Sir David Brand. He was a man of and of his lire, he gave in the public interest. He great compassion, a man of great understanding, had a built-in desire that Western Australia and a man who had a natural wisdom. He had a would be a great and self-reliant State. He had a great capacity to understand the things .that basic philosophy that unless the State was mattered, the very basic things about the most economically strong it would not have the complex problems. capacity to look after the less fortunate and to go ahead to higher standards. It was a simple In fact, he had a certain amount of fear of philosophy be practised. He was a good family complex things, and out of this he developed a man, a good husband and father, and above all a great capacity to get to the nub of the matter, and wonderful friend. And so we mourn his passing. to be able to determine what was really important and what was not. It is with great regret that we have to record his passing. I think it would be fitting, Mr Speaker, if He-Iwas a man of humble beginnings and in fact you, on behalf of all of us, conveyed to his widow his life reads like a classical story within the best and family our deep and very sincere feelings of Australian tradition. He commenced life as the regret at the passing of a great man, a great son of a farmer who farmed in devastatingly hard Premier, and a great Australian. times. Sir David then became a miner, a soldier, a storekeeper, and then, as a member of MR DAVIES (Victoria Park-Leader of the Parliament, he rose to his greatest height when he Opposition) [4.37 p.m.]: It is with regret that we was Premier of this State for a record term. find it necessary to move this motion. However. on this occasion I ind it very easy indeed to He was a man who engendered confidence. I endorse the remarks of the Premier. know when he made his first major overseas vi sit to America and Europe he did so with some Those of us who knew Sir David Brand over a trepidation because he was a very humble and great many years were all saddened indeed by his modest man. When he knew he was to visit some sudden death. We knew that over the past few of the great financial, industrial, commercial, and years Sir David had not enjoyed the best of other names of the world it caused a certain health; indeed we knew the job that he had done amount of trepidation in his mind. He need have so well probably could hasten his demise. We had no fear because the very sincerity of the man, would have hoped he might be spared a few more the humility and simplicity of the man, gave him years to enjoy his retirement in the State for the entree to any of those places. If one were to which he had done so much and which he loved so visit any of the places Sir David Brand visited dearly. years ago one would find that the names of On many occasions in private conversation he Western Australia and of Sir David Brand ride said to me that politics was not the job for him, 640 640[ASSEMBLY] but I do not believe that because he did his job so not only by his friends and colleagues but also by extremely well. As I have already said, there is no the people of Western Australia. There is no doubt that his application to his job hastened his doubt he has written himself into the history demise, and that is a matter for great regret. books of our State. He had the stewardship of this State at a time Our sympathy goes out to Lady Brand-a fine of great expansion and in many ways he brought lady-and to Sir David's family. It is with regret a new outlook and a new philosophy to that I support the Premier and the Leader of the government and the Government's approach to Opposition. the public and to the State generally. I believe we all learnt something from him and from the way MR MePHARLIN (Mt. Marshall) [4.43 p.m.]: he acted. He was a man of great humility. The On behalf of my colleagues in the National Party, Premier has already said this, but we all sensed it I wish to join with the Premier, the Leader of the when we were around him. Opposition and the Leader of the National The job that he did so well enabled him to build Country Party in expressing my condolences to up an enviable record. I am sure every person in the family of the late Sir David Brand. this louse would like to repeat that splendid I can well remember becoming a member of record, but I think it will be a long time before this House when Sir David was Premier. He was that happens, and certainly a long time before his always ready and willing to give a new member period of premiership is beaten. encouragement and assistance, and this help was I think at times like this our thoughts go out gratefully appreciated. Every time a new member first to the family, to Lady Doris and members of from either side came into this place, Sir David Sir David's family. It must have been a great would go out of his way to speak to him and offer shock to them, and I was pleased, Mr Speaker, him words of encouragement. I can well recall the that you nodded your assent when the Premier high praise new members Were willing to give to suggested you might convey to Sir David's family the late Sir David. the condolences and sympathies of the members I was associated with Sir David on numerous of this House. occasions, both in an official capacity inside We all appreciated the work Sir David did so Parliament, and outside Parliament. I always well. We were pleased to be parliamentary found him to be one of nature's gentlemen in colleagues of his. I am quite certain we all learnt whom one could place complete trust without the something from him. We very much regret the fear that that trust would be in any way betrayed. passing of a former colleague and someone whom He has written his name into the history of this each and every one of us could call a friend. State. He was respected and loved by all, and it is MR OLD (Katanning-Minister for with great regret we have seen his demise. Agriculture) [4.40 p.m.]: On behalf of my I join w holeheartedly with previous speakers in colleagues in the National Country Party, it is expressing my condolences to Sir David's family. with great regret that I support the remarks of the Premier and of the Leader of the Opposition. THE SPEAKER (Mr Thompson): I ask David Brand was known to me over a number of honourable members to rise in their places to years not only in Parliament but also as a signify their support of this motion. personal friend, as I resided in the electorate of Question passed, members standing. Greenough for some years and, therefore, had him as my parliamentary representative. I found PORNOGRAPHY him not only to be a very friendly man but also very able and conscientious; he had the ability to Exploitation of Children: Petition relate to people, irrespective of their station in MR DAVIES (Victoria Park-Leader of the life, and was always willing to lend an ear to the Opposition) [4.45 p.m.]: I have a petition similar problems of people in his electorate. to ones previously presented relating to the sexual Sir David did a tremendous amount of work for exploitation of children by way of photography the country people both in his electorate for commercial purposes. It bears 16 signatures, and-later, as Premier-in Western Australia as and I certify that it conforms with the Standing a whole; he will be long remembered by country Orders of the Legislative Assembly. people for the work he did. He was a most approachable man and, as the Premier and the The SPEAKER: I direct that the petition be Leader of the Opposition have said, a most brought to the Table of the House. capable one. His record will long be remembered See petition No. 53. [Tuesday, 24th April, 19791 6414

STATE FINANCE: INCOME TAX QUESTIONS State: Petition Questions were taken at this stage. MR DAVIES (Victoria Park-Leader of the Opposition) [4.46 p.m.]: I have a petition from 21 BILLS (4): MESSAGES citizens of Western Australia relating to the question of double income tax, in similar terms to Appropriations those already presented to this House. The Messages from the Governor received and read petition conforms with the Standing Orders of the recommending appropriations for the purposes of Legislative Assembly, and I have signed the following Bills- accordingly. I. Cattle Industry Compensation Act The SPEAKER: I direct that the petition be Amendment Bill. brought to the Table of the House. 2. Evaporites (Lake MacLeod) Agreement See petition No. 54. Act Amendment Bill. 3. Collie Coal (Western Collieries) EDUCATION: SCHOOL YEAR Agreement Bill. 4. Stipendiary Magistrates Act Alteration: Petition Amendment Bill. MR TONKIN (Morley) 14.47 p.m.]: I have a petition from 38 citizens of this State which states COLLIE COAL (WESTERN as Follows- COLLIERIES) AGREEMENT BILL The Honourable the Speaker and Members of the Legislative Assembly of the Second Reading Parliament of Western Australia in MR MENSAROS (Floreat-Minister for Parliament assembled: Industrial Development) [5.30 p.m.]: I move- We the undersigned teachers of Lockridge That the Bill be now read a second time. Primary School object to the proposed The purpose ofr this Bill is to ratify an agreement alterations to the school year as contained in, between the Government and Western Collieries amendments to Regulations 171 and 193 of Limited, which was formally signed by officials of the Education Act 1928-1977 and published the company and the Premier on the 17th in the Government Gazette of the 29th January this year. September, 1978.. The agreement contains five major provisions- We ask that the school year return to the status quo prior to the introduction of the (i) An obligation on the company to reserve amendments mentioned above. at all times.50 per cent of its extractable reserves of coal to satisfy the needs of Your petitioners therefore humbly. pray the State Energy Commission. that you will give this matter earnest (ii) A requirement for the company and the considerations, and your petitioners, as in State Energy Commission to enter into duty bound, will ever pray. coal supply arrangements commercially The petition conforms with the Standing Orders acceptable to both parties for the tenure or the Legislative Assembly, and I have signed of the agreement. accordingly. (iii) An undertaking by the company to The SPEAKER: I direct that the petition be prepare an overall scheme for the brought to the Table of the House. exploration and development of the coal resource over a 42-year period together See petition N~o. 55. with provision of detailed proposals for specific developments at nominated LEGISLATIVE REVIEW AND intervals within that period. ADVISORY COMMITlTEE (iv) Requirements for protection and management of the environment and for Report: Tabling appropriate rehabilitation of mined THE SPEAKER (Mr Thompson): I have for areas. tabling the report of the Legislative Review and (v) Procedures whereby the company may Advisory Committee relating to by-laws of the secure title to substantial additional coal Town of Canning. reserves.- (27) 642 642[ASSEMBLY]

Before commenting further on the specific which are designed to be of benefit to the provisions of the agreement it may be profitable producers and to the Energy Commission. for me to provide an overview of the coal reserves In addition to the agreement now before the situation in the State together with an indication House, members may be aware of a long-term of future State Energy Commission coal coal supply contract signed on the 29th March, requirement. As a result of these comments 1979, which provides for the Griffin Coal Mining members will be in a position more fully to Company to supply the SEC with about 50 appreciate the significance of this agreement and million tonnes of Muja open-cut coal over 25 of other actions which the Government has taken years. in relation to this vital State resource. As a result of the long-term security provided Any assessment Of recoverable coal reserves by the contract Griffin is proposing to enter into a must have due regard for the anticipated sale major development plan for bigger and more price of the coal and the proposed methods of sophisticated equipment to be employed in its mining as well as the geological appraisal mining operations. necessary to establish the quantity and quality of Negotiations also have commenced with Griffin coal in any location. for that company to enter into an agreement H-aying regard for those criteria the currently similar to that in the schedule to this Bill. assessed estimate of extractable reserves in the The other company holding coalmining leases Collie field are approximately 350-400 million at Collie, Western Collieries and Dampier Pty. tonnes. Ltd., has also signified its intention to finalist a Occurrences of coal have been reported from similar agreement during this year. other areas of the State, particularly at Eneabba, With the significance to the State of the Collie but to date no signif icant reserves of coal resource now established I return to my commercially extractable coal have been initial comments on the purpose of this Bill and established other than at Collie. propose to explain in some detail the implications At the present time production of coal at Collie of the agreement provisions. is approximately 2.5 million tonnes per annum Reseration to the State Energy Commission of most of which is consumed by the State Energy 50 per cent of the extractable reserves of coal Commission. The balance is used by one large and available to the company is provided under clause a number of small industrial consumers. 5. Provision also is made for coal to be supplied Conversion to coal Firing Of the second from both open-cut and deep-mining methods as generating unit at Kwinana has now been required under "mutually acceptable commercial completed. Construction of the two new 200 arrangements", or in more specific words long- megawatt generating units at Muja will be term coal supply contracts.' completed by 1981 and 1982 respectively. As a Clause 6 places an obligation on the company consequence SEC coal consumption will increase to prepare an overall scheme for the exploration, by one million tonnes per annum by the early development, and rehabilitation of the coal 1980s. resource contained in areas under application or Long-term forecasts of coal consumption now held as coalmining leases. indicate an annual requirement for some six The scheme will encompass developments bver million tonnes of coal per annumn by the SEC a 42-year time span and for the latter part of the alone around the turn of the century. After period will of course be general in nature- The allowing for the consumption of coal by existing merit of the provision is that it establishes for the and yet to be built coal-fired power stations over first time in the history of the Collie coalfield a their full economic life, the aggregate SEC general development framework which will be of consumption of coal would probably exceed 50 value to both the company and all, Government per cent of the presently known commercially departments and instrumentalities serving the' recoverable resources of Collie coal. Collie community. This leaves less than half of the reserves for Detailed proposals for the conduct of operations industrial use and the Government's policy is to for an initial 15 years are required pursuant to achieve a reasonable balance between consumers. clause 7 on or before the 1st July, 1980. Against this background the State and the two In formulating its proposals the company must coal producers, Western Collieries Limited and provide details of measures to be taken to achieve Griffin Coal Mining Company Limited, have a balance between open-cut and deep-mined coal recently entered into long-term arrangements production. It must provide evidence that the coal [Tuesday, 24th April, 1979164 643 needs of the SEC have been met for that period. A plan, a copy of which 1 will table, shows in It must also specify the total annual tonnage of red the existing coalmining leases registered in coal which the company proposes to mine, the corporation's name. The yellow areas indicate if any processing of coal is envisaged and delineate approved lease applications. provide details of measures to be taken for the In my opening summary I indicated that the protection and management of the environment, company would be granted access to additional including rehabilitation. coal reserves. The additional reserves are within Requirements for consideration and the yellow areas. The company is presently implementation of proposals similar to those conducting a $750 000 drilling programme to contained in other agreements ratified by the determine more clearly the size of the additional Parliament are set down in clause 8. Further reserves. proposals are required in respect of the 15 years from year 16 to the end of year 30 and for the 12 In view of the importance of Collie coal to the years from year 31 to the end of year 42. future energy requirements of local industry as well as the Energy Commission, the Government If during the continuance of the agreement the has by clause 25 (1) prohibited export sales of to modify, expand, company desires significantly coal without or vary its activities beyond those specified in any the consent of the Minister. approved proposals then it is required by clause I indicated in my earlier comments that the t0 to submit additional proposals in respect company would provide details of the annual thereof. tonnage of coal proposed to be mined. Should the The environmental protection and management company desire to sell in excess of the approved proposal required under clause 7 (1) (M) is to be tonnage it is required under clause 25 (2) to the subject of ongoing investigation, research, and secure the approval of the Minister. monitoring in respect of which a report must be The remaining provisions of the agreement are submitted to the Minister yearly with a more standard to agreements of this nature and I detailed report required three-yearly. believe are understood by members of the House. Arising from the detailed report the Minister Reference is made in clause 38 to seven specific may under clause 1]1(3) call upon the company to coalmining lease applications which form part of submit additional detailed proposals for the the yellow area on the plan to be tabled. management of the environment. The, agreement The company has had to have access to coal does not of itself require the company to submit reserves which can be mined further details of its operations although clause 14 in the period prior to approval of the proposals required under clause 7. requires the company to forward to the Minister a Consequently copy of any mining plan which the company provision was made for the seven submits to the SEC. It is envisaged that proviso applications to be granted under the Mining Act. will result in the Minister receiving a detailed Clause 38 provides for those leases to be five-year mine development plan which will be relinquished by the company in the event of the updated annually. agreement being determined, The normal provision for use of local This agreement is one of several major professional services, labour, and materials is initiatives which the Government has in train to included at clause 15. ensure that maximum long-term benefit flows to Specific provisions relating to roads (clause the State from the coal resource at Collie. 16), rail (clause 17), electricity (clause 18), water I commend the Bill to the House. (clause 19), and forests (clause 20) are The plan was tabled (see paper No. 14 7). incorporated to achieve clear understandings between the company and the State with respect Debate adjourned, on motion by Mr T. H. to those aspects of the ongoing coalmining Jones. operation. Provision is made in clause 21 for the company STIPENDIARY MAGISTRATES ACT to apply for and be granted a coalmining lease. AMENDMENT BILL The lease may encompass so much of the 29 Second Reading existing Mining Act coalmining leases now held by the company and so much of the company's 41. MR O'NEIL (East Melville--Deputy Premier) approved applications for coalmining leases as the [5.43 p.m.1: I move- company may determine. That the Dill be now read a second time. 644 644[ASSEMBLY]

The Bill now before the House has been aimed at outstanding cases after the expiration date of achieving an up-to-date Statute dealing with all their appointment. Temporary appointments major aspects of the magistracy. previously were made under the Public Service One of the main features is to remove any Act. In introducing this provision, it is felt that reference or connotation that magistrates are greater flexibility will be available to meet the public servants, a fact which was confirmed by fluctuating demands made on the lower courts. the State Full Court in 1977. Similarly, Provision also has been made in the Bill for references to magistrates in the Public Service magistrates to elect to join the State Act, which was passed by this Parliament last superannuation scheme if they wish to do so, but year, have been deleted. there will be no compulsion for them to join. It is quite clear legally that magistrates are not Sections 7 and 8 of the present Act which deal members of the Public Service. with appointments and certain conditions of Action has already been taken administratively service have been substantially redrafted to bring to remove this appearance by the deletion of their them up to date and also to provide that the oath names from the telephone directory where they or affirmation of office will be that contained in previously appeared under the Crown Law the proposed schedule. At present the oath or Department and, also, from the annual Public affirmation taken is contained in the Justices Act. Service List. Also, it has been considered desirable to clarify Following on from the amendments to the the powers of the Governor, or if the powers are Public Service Act, the qualifications required for delegated, the Chief Stipendiary Magistrate appointment as a magistrate will now be regarding the assignment of duties to other completely incorporated in this Act. The magistrates. These duties include serving in conditions of employment will be those which are courts, and on tribunals or boards constituted determined by the Governor. under any Act. Salaries, allowances, and conditions of The remaining amendments concern a employment will then be subject to the reference to the Attorney General as the person Stipendiary Magistrates Act and the Salaries and responsible for the Act and to the recognition of Allowances Tribunal Act. examinations passed by persons prior to this Hill It is proposed also to amend section 5 (3) of the coming into Operation. Act which deals with the suspension of a The effect of these amendments will, as I magistrate to make it clear that he may be mentioned earlier, provide an up-to-date Act with suspended only on an allegation of 'misbehaviour. all principal matters concerning the magistracy It is felt that the use of the present word "charge" being contained in the Stipendiary Magistrates is too wide-ranging. Act. Also the opportunity has been taken to clarify I commend the Bill to the House. the conditions under which a magistrate may vacate office as well as the power to extend Debate adjourned, on motion by Mr Bertram. appointments, in appropriate circumstances, until the occupant reaches the age of 70 years. ADDRESS-IN-REPLY: FIFTH DAY As members will appreciate, the pressure of motion work in the courts varies considerably from time to lime due to factors over which the Government Debate resumed, from the 12th April, on the has no control. It is therefore considered advisable following motion by Mr Shalders- to incorporate a provision to cater for part-time or That the following Address-in-Reply to temporary appointments to the magistracy in this His Excellency's Speech be agreed to- Bill. May it please Your Excellency: We, the The opportunity also has been taken to amplify Legislative Assembly of the Parliament the existing power of the Governor to reappoint of the State of Western Australia in former magistrates who have retired, but have not Parliament assembled, beg to express reached the age of 70 years. loyalty to our Most Gracious Sovereign, This will enable legal practitioners and former and to thank Your Excellency for the magistrates to be appointed Car a specified period Speech you have been pleased to address to overcome a particular problem. to Parliament. Provision also has been included to allow MR HASSELL (Cottesloe) [5.47 p.m.]: I rise persons who are so appointed to complete any in this debate to support the motion which was (Tuesday, 24th April, 1979] 6454 moved with great competence on opening night by problems of the system are considered because the member for Murray. they must be regarded as of great value to the It is my desire in the time available to me in the beneficiaries of the system, who are the employees debate to speak on the subject of industrial in whose favour those minimum standards and relations, It is a subject which is often referred to minimum working conditions are set. and debated in this House and in the community, Despite that unique position of our system and and it is a subject of great importance both to the despite the fact that it gives legal force to wages State and to Australia. and conditions, it does not seem to be working. It However, I sometimes have the feeling-and I does not seem to be producing the industrial peace think our community does too--that we are not and harmony which the community sought by the making a great deal of progress towards dealing introduction of the statutory system. The with those areas of concern in the field of community was prepared to pay the price of industrial relations which are deeply felt,' and the interfering in private contractual arrangements solutions to which we must find. It is an area of .and imposing its will through arbitration and concern, and I imagine no member of this House enforcing its System to give minimum conditions would ever go anywhere without hearing in exchange for industrial peace and harmony, on reference being made to it either directly or the basis that the beneficiaries of the system-the indirectly. employed people-would as a result of having those guarantees, be prepared to conform to a The problems that exist in respect of industrial, system. relations are found throughout Australia; they Yet, as I said, the system does not seem to be cannot be identified as belonging particularly to working. Apart from recent experience in one State or as belonging particularly to any part of any State. Western Australia, Australian-wide experience The problems are found equally in indicates much the same form, although under a different how poorly it is operating. A small system, in the United Kingdom and in other free article which appeared in The West Australian on Monday, the 19th February, illustrates the point. and industrialised nations. Notably, the problems I do not want to be involved in an endless of industrial relations are not found in communist repetition of statistics, but this article does or in dictatorships where free trade draw countries attention to the problems. It is headed, "Strike unions and free enterprise do not exist. costs double" and under a Canberra dateline it Amongst that general concern and amongst the says- general problems in the world, Australia is unique The cost of industrial disputes to Australia in some respects. It is unique in having such a in November was almost double that for the highly developed system of statutory conciliation same month a year ago, according to figures and arbitration, and it is unique in having as a just issued. consequence of the statutory system a widely developed system of legally guaranteed and The Australian Bureau of Statistics legally enforceable minimum wages and working reported that in November there were conditions. That is a fundamental characteristic 170,700 working days lost through industrial of our system which is of great importance in any disputes and $6,184,000 wages were lost. consideration of the system and what might be In November 197? the figures were 88,900 done about it. days. However, it was one of the least Through the awards of the industrial industrially-troubled months since early in commissions, whether made by consent or as a the year. result of arbitration, the community through the According to the ABS, the main law gives statutory force to minimum wages and contributors to the November 1978 figures minimum working conditions; and, except in some were metal trades disputes in NSW and meat exceptional cases, the emphasis must be on the industry and brewery disputes in WA. minimum aspect because there is no prohibition So figures which represent a doubling of trouble on negotiation or agreement to give better than over the corresponding month of the year before minimum wages and working conditions. nevertheless represent one of the best months of Our system sets aside private contracts, 1978, As I said, without becoming involved in a individual bargaining, and mere contractual ream of statistics that illustrates the point that the enforcement through civil action, in favour of a system itself seems not to be working. State-supported and State-enforced statutory set We all know personally, without undertaking of rules and standards. These essential elements any research, how many things have been affected of the system cannot be overlooked when the in the immediate past. Milk, bread, eggs, 646 646ASSEM BLY) newspapers, television services, airline services, Mr Davies: They were not meant to be. road transport, telephone services, mail services, Mr HASSELL: Governments have discovered the delivery of fuel, flour, iron ore exports, wheat that the effects of arbitration commission exports, and electricity are all within immediate decisions are significant to the economy. memory as areas of community activity and need Therefore, Governments have sought to influence which have been disrupted by industrial the awards of minimum wages and conditions to disputation. ensure that they do not endanger economic Another indication of the breakdown or the recovery and the decline of inflation. With the system is the level of the increase of Government decline of inflation, there is the expected and intervention. Because the system is not handling hoped-for growth of employment. the problems, Governments have intervened The concept of indexation has been developed almost to an unprecedented extent. Special and considered. special legislation in Western Australia recently, The result of Government intervention in legislation in New South Wales recently, and special legislation by the Commonwealth are seeking to influence the outcome of deliberations symptoms of the trouble and represent failures of by commissions has been to make the work of those commissions more difficult. The conflict in and conciliation systems the industrial arbitration submissions has widened. Previously the conflicts which exist. were between two opposing economic Ideally those systems should take under their interests-the employer and the employee. Now wing and resolve every industrial dispute which commissions have become more involved in cannot be resolved by agreement between the dealing with the conflict of the claims of the parties. community as represented by Governments. The Mr Pearce: Why are you speaking so slowly? commissions have had to consider sometimes Mr O'Connor: He is trying to set you an conflicting but just claims from employees who example. seek compensation for inflation, and who seek wage relativities. Those claims have to be Mr HASSELL: 1 repeat the point I was balanced against the claims of employers who making: the system should cope with every have to survive in the international context of industrial dispute which cannot be dealt with by competition from overseas manufacturers and the far preferable method of agreement between overseas imports. the parties. Government intervention should not occur and should not be necessary except in the The third factor commissions have to consider most exceptional circumstances. relates to the claims of Governments which seek to protect the economy for what they perceive to Mr Mclver: Except where perhaps you might be the common good. get a few more votes. Those factors have contributed to the Mr HASSELL: The danger of Government difficulties of the industrial commissions. Surely intervention is that we lead on to a higher plane of those factors spring from the economic climate dispute. We lead on to the situation in which which pervades the nation. there arises an expectation that every industrial dispute is the immediate business and the The second problem of the arbitration system I immediate concern of government; and with that would identify as the crisis in authority-the situation the problem of industrial relations Crisis in the aut~hority of the commissions. This becomes a day-to-day problem of government crisis has two parts, as I see it. The first part is and, therefore, a day-to-day problem of political the refusal by one section of the system-the confrontation. I mention that in passing because it union movement-to accept the binding force of is a matter of concern in relation to the system; the industrial arbitration system and and it is that system about which I wish to make consequential penalities far breach. some points. Mr Tonkin: You know why that is, do you not? The growing practice of Government Mr HASSELL: Perhaps the member for intervention in various places is merely a sympton Morley will enlighten us when he speaks. of the illness of the industrial arbitration system Mr Tonkin: Because those who fix prices and in Australia. sell commodities are not bound by anything when I would attempt to identify the basic problems they set their prices, so you have the employee of the system under four headings, the first of going. for a wage rise, but the seller of the which is the economic climate. Wc all know that commodities does not have to ask anyone what things are not easy- the prices are to be. They are being left behind. [Tuesday, 24th April, 19791 6474 Mr HASSELL: The point. made by the uip to the public and say that they will not accept member has absolutely no relevance to the point I a system of sanctions. Unions, on behalf of made, that the union movement, as part of the employees, prosecute employers for breaches of arbitration system, refuses to accept penalties for awards every day. breach of the rules. The essence- Mr Tonkin: And the industrial magistrate fines Mr Tonkin: Going outside the system in order the employer $4. to get wage rises? They have to use those wages Mr HASSELL: Unions cena-lise people who act to feed themselves. against what they perceive as their interests. Mr HASSELL: No system can survive with Unions have had no hesitation in Melbourne in one-sided enforcement- ensuring that Mr Frank Kane did not have a job. Mr Tonkin: That is right. They were able to use their force to achieve that end. Mr HASSELL: Therefore the member Mr Jamieson: I do not think the Premier helped acknowledges my point. The unions, by their Chittleborough very much, either. refusal to accept penalties for breach of the system, are seeking to break the system itselr. Mr HASSELL: Unions take effective and Not at all. The sellers of sometimes brutal action against strike breakers to Mr Tonkin: achieve their objectives. Black bans are not commodities are not bound by anything before unheard of in this place. they put their prices up. That is why it will not work, because the people who sell their labour are Mr B. T. Burke: Neither are lock-outs. bound to make a case, but the people who sell Mr HASSELL: Lock-outs do not occur. That is commodities are not bound. the point I am making. The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I ask the member Mr B. T. Burke: Rubbish! to direct his remarks to the Chair. Mr Tonkin interjected. Mr HASSELL: I am directing my remarks to The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! the Chair. However, I must say that I cannot see Mr HASSELL: There has not been a-lock-out the relevance of the remarks made by the member in Western Australia within memory. for Morley. .Mr B. T. Burke: Rubbish. In 1966, the printers' Mr Tonkin: Well, you should not make a union went on strike, and there was a lock-out- I speech on the subject if you cannot see the know that occurred. I was a member of the union relevance. at the time. Perhaps your memory is not as long Mr HASSELL: The fact of the matter is that as that. the industrial arbitration system is enforced Mr HASSELL: If there was a lock-out, the against the employers- company concerned could properly be prosecuted. Mr Tonkin: But they have a free hand with Mr Tonkin: Companies close their doors prices. whenever they like, and put the workers off. Mr HASSELL: The employers accept their Mr HASSELL: The member for Morley would obligations. They never quibble that they will be not say they should not- - penalised if they breach those obligations. It is ridiculous to suggest that there is no control on The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! There are their prices. The competitive forces to which I too many interjections. referred have a definite impact on their prices. Mr H-ASSELL: If unions are involved in those Mr Tonkin: And we have a good market tactics, they should be subject to punishment. operating in Australia! That is the point I made in relation to the crisis in Mr HASSELL: The interesting point is that authority in the industrial arbitration system. the union movement itself accepts the need for Mr Tonkin: Sellers of goods go on strike every controls involving rules and punishments. There is day. not a union in Australia that does not have rules Mr HASSELL: Unions refuse to accept the which provide for lines on their members for the enforcement aspect of industrial systems. I will breach of union directives. Rules, usually refer to an article in The West Australian of the expressed in broad terms, provide for expulsion of 17th March headed "Warning by ACTU: Abolish members for conduct inconsistent with the the JR B", which reads as follows- objectives of the union. Unions deal out The ACTU yesterday asked the Federal punishment to their members. However, the Government to abolish the Industrial unions, through people such as Halfpenny, stand Relations Bureau. 648 648[ASSEMBLY]

Mr Tonkin: The bureau is there to cause disown those irresponsible unions, of which there trouble. are only a few, which believe that the system will Mr HASSELL: It is not there to cause survive if sanctions are imposed against one side trouble- only. Mr B. T. Burke: Employers are asking that the Mr Tonkin: We do disown irresponsible unions. industrial arbitration tribunal be abolished. You Mr HASSELL: Members of the Opposition do do rnot mention that, because it is not convenient. not disown them. They constantly interject to The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The interjections make the point that sanctions should not apply. are far too persistent and particularly lengthy. I There are sanctions against employers, and the would ask the member to continue and for other unions are active in enforcing those sanctions. members to cease interjecting at the rate that Mr Tonkin: There are no sanctions against they have been. price rises. Mr B.T. Burke. Amen. Mr B. T. Burke: Deal with the Prices Mr HASSELL: I will continue to quote from Justification Tribunal. the article from The West Australian as follows- Mr HASSELL: The third problem relating to industrial The ACTU secretary. Mr Peter Nolan, arbitration systems throughout told the Australia is the conflict of laws and the NLCC meeting that the AMWSU inadequacy of laws. The State and Federal in would defend itself at the April hearing systems of industrial arbitration are not in the Federal Court. harmony. There are problems of dual registration, That is now being done, at the same time as conflicting jurisdiction, competition for coverage, people outside are screaming for abolition of the and deliberate shifts to avoid enforcement. All bureau. The article continues- those problems add up to confusion, to Mr Nolan said last night that the ACTU uncertainty, and to the difficulties of did not ask for the withdrawal of the Kane Governments, employers, and employees. Those case. confusions and difficulties are added to by the But he warned the Government that if the limited constitutional power of the union was fined there would be an all-out Commonwealth. confrontation. There is irrefutable evidence that the union Sitting suspended from 6.15 to 7.30 p.m. movement wants the best of both worlds. It will Mr H-ASSELL: I shall continue with my not accept a system in which sanctions are applied remarks where I left them before the tea against both sides uniformly. suspension. At that time I was about to Mr Tonkin: It is a dog-eat-dog society. commence talking about the fourth point in the identification of the problems in the arbitration Mr H-ASSELL: At the same time, the union system throughout Australia which I have movement, as I have pointed out, punishes is own endeavoured to make. I-label the fourth point as members. It gives to members of the public the "the affront to human rights". Compulsory sort of treatment which can only be regarded as unionism- sanctions for what the union movement regards as Mr Skidmore: There is no such thing as a breach of its interests. compulsory unionism. The second part of the crisis in authority is the Mr HASSELL: I shall deal with that point current climate of "strike first and talk later". later. Compulsory unionism, in whatever form, is Problems are not being taken to arbitration until an affront to human rights whether it be by direct a softening-up process of strike action has been compulsion, whether it be by preference to followed. unionists, or by closed shops, or whether it be by Mr Jamieson: If there was a national front contractual compulsory unionism. party here, you would be leading it. Mr Tonkin: That is strange coming from a Mr HASSELL: All I have been talking about member of a Government which sent men to is the even-handed application of sanctions for the Vietnam. enforcement of rules within a system. Mr HASSELL: Section 135 of the Industrial Mr Tonkin: What are the rules about prices, Arbitration Act provides- then? (]) No employer shall dismiss any worker Mr HASSELL: One would have thought that from his employment or injure him in his responsible members of the Opposition would employment or alter his position to his [Tuesday, 24th April, 1979]64 649

prejudice by reason merely of the fact that Kindergartens Aides and Teachers Aides Award the worker is an officer or member of an No. 8 of 1977. Clause 16, in part, reads as industrial union or association or of a society follows- or other body that has applied to be Subject to the provisions of this clause it is registered as a union or association or is a condition of employment under this award entitled to the benefit of an industrial that each non-unionist shall- agreement or award. (a) unless she has already applied for Mr Tonkin-. That has been broken every day by memnbership of the union in the manner employers who force unionists out of unions. Prescribed by the rules of the union, Mr HASSELL: My time is limited and I desire apply for such membership in the to make my remarks. I shall deal with manner prescribed within seven days of interjections when more time is available, but that receiving from an accredited is not the case now. representative of the union, a copy of No doubt when that section was enacted in those rules, a copy of this clause and an 1912, it was necessary to have a legal protection application form for membership; for people who belonged to industrial unions. Mr Tonkin: Who put that into the award? Mr Tonkin: It is still necessary. Mr KASSELL: To continue- Mr KASSELL: But nowadays the situation has (b) upon being notified that she has been gone full circle and the affront to human rights is accepted as a member of the union, do not an affront by way of an attack on union such things as may be required under membership, but it is an affront by way of an the rules of the union in relation to her attack on people who refuse, for whatever reason, admission to membership; and to join industrial unions. (c) thereafter remain a unionist while so employed; Mr Tonkin: If it encompasses human rights, what about sending men to Vietnam? What is the difference between the obligation under the award and compulsory union Mr H-ASSELL: I should like to quote also from membership? the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, Article 22, clause 1. It says that, Mr Tonkin: Who put that into the award? "6everyone shall have the right to freedom of Mr HASSELL-. The artificial distinction which association with others, including the right to is drawn'by the member for Swan is manifest. form and join trade unions for the protection of Several Opposition members interjected. his interests". The SPEAKER: Order! Mr T. H-.Jones: If you do not pay your fees to Mr HASSELL: I should like to turn to the Liberal Party, what happens? subiclause (4) of' clause 16 which reads as Mr HASSELL: At the time when the Labor follows- Party was so anxious to enact the International Where the Secretary of the union has Covenant when it was led by Mr Whitlam in notified the employer that A non-unionist to Canberra, it wanted to leavf out that clause, whom the provisions of subclause (2) of this because the affront to human rights involved in clause apply has failed or refused to comply compulsory unionism is not a matter of which the with those provisions,. that non-unionist shall ALP wants to know. not be retained in employment by the Mr Davies: Do not you talk about human employer for more than twenty-four hours to rights. the exclusion of any well-conducted unionist Mr HASSELL: We have heard the comment of who is employed by, or who applies for the member for Swan that there is no such thing employment with the employer... as compulsory unionism. That- is about the most Mr Tonkin: Who put that into the award? artificial distinction I have ever heard. Mr KASSELL: I assume the commission put it Mr Skidmore: You would not know. Come out in the award. and work in industry for a while. Mr Tonkin: That is right. Mr H-ASSELL: It is the most subtle sophistry I Mr HASSELL: That is exactly what I am have ever heard. talking about. I am talking about the problems in Mr Skidmore: You would not know. the industrial arbitration system and one of those Mr H-ASSELL: I should like to quote clause problems is the affront to human rights involved 16, "Preference to Unionists", from the in compulsory unionism. 650 650[ASSEMBLY]

Mr Skidmore: You are an affront to this place. new avenues by which individuals who are injured Mr HASSELL: If the member for Swan was as by the activities of industrial conflict can obtain interested in this subject as he purports to be redress. when he speaks here from time to time on behalf Mr Tonkin: You would like him to recommend of certain groups, he would stand up for those machine guns, would you? whose right it is that they should not be forced to Mir H-ASSELL: Senior Commissioner Kelly's join an industrial association. I should like to refer proposed Act contains no proposals in relation to also to subclause (5) which reads as follows- the problems of double jurisdiction and the A non-unionist shall not be engaged for constitutional problems involved in the any work to the exclusion of a well- Commonwealth situation. Admittedly, it would conducted unionist if that unionist ... not be within his province to solve those problems; Mr Skid more: Read the rest of it. but he makes no suggestions. A man who has spent so many years in the system and who is Mr Tonkin: You should talk about sending men invited to take a wide-ranging view of it, might to Vietnam. have suggested that those problems exist and Mr HASSELL: There is no distinction between might have set out constructive ways in which compulsory unionism and preference to unionists. they can be solved. There never has been and never will be. It is a The sorts of problems we have seen in this State mere blind for compulsory unionism; but in relation to the electricity strike would be no members of the Opposition continue to talk about better dealt with under Senior Commissioner it as though there were a distinction. Kelly's proposals than they would be under the I have made four points in relation to the existing law. problems in the industrial arbitration system. The most important omission is that there are They are: the economic climate; the crisis in no proposals as to compulsory unionism, other authority involving the lack of acceptance and than the suggestion that the present situation respect for rules; the conflict of laws caused by should be maintained. That situation requires that conflicting State and Commonwealth a person who does not want to join a union should jurisdictions; and the affront to human rights. make an application for exemption, and pay a fee Those are what I perceive to be basic issues equal to the union membership fee to somebody affecting the system. I suggest that the report by else. In my view, that is a serious deficiency in the Senior Commissioner E. R. Kelly of the Western Act. Australian Industrial Commission, in the form of Mr Tonkin: Why should people benefit from his proposed industrial relations Act, goes the system when nowhere towards solving those problems. In fact, they do not belong to unions? in my view, those problems arl exacerbated by his Mr HASSELL: I shall pause to respond to the proposals. interjection made by the member for Morley. I agree there is a problem in relation to the issue Mr Skidmore: Now you put yourself above raised by him. It is an old question which he asks: even the commissioner. You are a real wizard. why should people receive the benefit of the Mr HASSELL: The commissioner proposes system without joining a union? I can only say, in nothing to improve the mechanisms by which the response to the interjection, that I agree it is a conflicts of employers, employees, and community problem. I believe the answer is this: the State interests may be resolved. There is no basic provides the system. It is not the union that change from the present system which we agree, provides the system and the legal guarantee of because members opposite have indicated their minimum wages and working conditions. It is the agreement as a result of their interjections State and community which provide it through previously, is in grave danger of breaking down. the law. There is no proposal to deal with the crisis in Mr Tonkin: Come on! For the last 50 years all authority. In fact, the enforcement role of the sorts of things have occurred. We have had long office of the Industrial Registrar is diminished in service leave and workers' compensation. section 166 of the proposed Act. There are Mr HASSELL: I should like to refer also, in various parts in the proposed Act, but none deal relation to the proposals contained in Senior with enforcement as such. Commissioner Kelly's proposed Act, to his There are no proposals in Senior Commissioner suggestion that there should be a greatly extended Kelly's proposed Act to deal with picketing, coverage by the Industrial Commission. The industrial sabotage, industrial lawlessness, and the definition of "employee" in subclauses (d) and (e) ineffectiveness of present sanctions. It provides no of the definition section of his proposed Act [Tuesday, 24th April. 19791 6515 replaces the definition of "'worker" in the present and unions. Legally guaranteed minimum wage Act. The definition of "industrial matter" in the and working conditions would not apply. Without proposed Act is much wider than the present this system that guarantee would not apply. It is situation. In section 26 of the proposed law the the system itself which is under question. jurisdiction to decide whether a matter is Several members interjected. industrial is conferred exclusively on the Industrial Commission. Mr KASSELL: I am not suggesting that the system should go. What I san advocating is that in The effect of these provisions- a proper review of the laws, that question should Mr Skidmore: What is wrong with that in law? be asked. It should not be put aside on the Mr HASSELL: -would be to subject all assumption that the existing system should independent subcontractors-brickies, teams and continue. owner-drivers-who form themselves into groups Several members interjected. to become subject to the industrial arbitration Mr Secondly, there should be an system, although they are independent HIASSELL. businessmen. It would subject car salesmen obligation on the part of industrial commissions working on a commission and, almost to realise the economic impact of their decisions. unbelievably, it would put legal partnerships The difficulty which is there and which is under the control of the Industrial Arbitration acknowledged but which must be faced is that Act. continually increasing wages continually reduce job opportunity. Mr Tonkin: That is what worries you, is it not? Mr Tonkin: What about increasing prices? Mr HASSELL: It does indeed worry me that business enterprises- Mr HASSELL: For whatever evil it is, increasing prices increase job opportunities. Mr Tonkin: You are a part-time politician. Mr Tonkin: How do -you work that out? Mr H-ASSELL: -would be destroyed and would become subject to industrial arbitration, Mr HASSELL: The fact of the matter is that because .the combined effect of these provisions higher wages mean fewer jobs and the price of would be that we would have a totally unionised that must be paid by someone. State covering all occupations in all forms, Mr Tonkin: if you do not pay higher wages no- whether in partnerships or not, with universal one can afford to buy anything. compulsory unionism. Mr HASSELL: Thirdly, new measures need to Mr Skidmore: You know how the award is be considered and adopted whereby the resort to made and the reasons for it. direct action before arbitration is prevented and Mr HIASSELL: I have no doubt that is an the decisions of the commission are accepted. The objective to which the Labor Party adheres, but crisis in authority must be faced and considered. as far as I am concerned I hope it will never Sanctions against those employers, employees, occur. employer groups, and unions who flout the system Without dealing in full with the proposals of must be made effective. If they are not effective Senior Commissioner Kelly, which I am sure will the system will not survive, even if it is desired be considered at some other time, I want to that it survive. Those measures must be properly submit several matters which I believe must be considered, not a Bill that reduces enforcement. considered in a review of the law concerning Several members interjected. industrial relations. Mr Skidmore: You have all the answers. The first is that real and proper consideration Mr H-ASSELL: I do not claim to have all the must be given to the question as to whether it is answers. All sorts of measures must be desired to maintain a system of compulsory considered; perhaps in the form of good behaviour arbitration and conciliation, because questions arc bonds, progressive withdrawal of the benefits of being asked as to whether this system in Australia the system, limitation of the legal rights of has not broken down to such an extent that the recalcitrant organisations, and a progressive system itself should be abandoned- automatic system of suspension and Mr Skidmore: Who is responsible for any deregistration. breaking down? Point four is that State and Federal Mr H-ASSELL: -in favour of a system of Governments need to undertake a review of the private contract. The price of the removal of that system to see whether laws cannot be brought into system should be clearly understood by employers line. We need one Australian industrial 652 652[ASSEMBLY] arbitration commission vested with State and equipment is not utilised again because a new Federal jurisdiction with agreed uniform laws. principal has been appointed and he has adopted Several members interjected. a different policy which does not require the Mr HASSELL: The fifth point is that all forms equipment. This is a waste of education funds and of compulsory unionism must be abolished and public money. outlawed effectively whether in preference To give an example: An air-conditioner, worth clauses, closed shop form, or anything else. in excess of $20 000, was installed in the York MR McIVER (Avon) [7.49 p.m.]: I welcome High School, but it has never worked successfully. the opportunity afforded me to highlight the I hasten to add that I know the Minister for shortcomings of this Government and its lack of Education is not responsible for this state of foresight as evidenced in the decisions it has made affairs, but surely his department should follow which are retrograde and detrimental to the up the matter and ensure there is value for people of Western Australia. Also I take the money. In my view it is criminal that $20 000 opportunity to draw to the Government's should be wasted. In addition, I must indicate attention some matters affecting the electorate of that the air-conditioner was installed in the Avon. library where all it is doing is affecting the books. On one side of the library it is like an iceberg, Firstly, I indicate to the Minister for Education while it is like the Sahara Desert on the other that in my electorate there are many side. The situation is not good enough. The shortcomings in connection with his portfolio. department should ascertain where the money is There is a need for finance which I trust will be being spent. forthcoming in the 1979-80 financial year. I am fully aware of the limited funds available, but I When I first entered Parliament in 1968 1 must point out that many schools in my electorate begged the Government to establish an office for a long time have been in need of repairs and block in Northam instead of the fragmented maintenance, such as painting. situation which existed. At that time the cost was estimated at $50 000 and it was said that it was I know the Minister is going to Northam in a astronomical. However, the cost of upgrading the few weeks' time to open the completed extensions existing building in the last three years has been to Adamson House. If he has time following the completion $146 000 according to figures supplied to me in of the ceremony and the associated Parliament the other night. The Government is social activities, I would like him to accompany me for about 1S minutes to the Avon Primary always crying poverty. It complains that it has no School in particular which he must pass on his funds and that the Commonwealth will not give it way home. If he does this he will find that what I any money. However, when it is supplied with am saying can be substantiated. money it does not know what to do with it and so wastes it in areas such as those I have mentioned. Mr P. V. Jones: To look at the repairs and It is time the Government looked at the situation renovations? and tightened up on expenditure in various Mr McI VER: To ascertain how desperate the departments. I have given only two examples situation is. because of the shortage of time. Mr P. V. Jones: Okay. I have also indicated through questions I have Mr McIVER: I thank the Minister. I also wish asked in Parliament that it is time the to speak on behalf of parents and citizens' Government air-conditioned some of our schools, associations in my area. They are concerned and particularly those in the Avon electorate. I about the constant change of school principals. I was advised priority must be given to schools in know that in the main the reason is promotion, the north-west, north of the 26th parallel, and in but I believe the promotion system should be re- the goldfields region. I do not quarrel with that examined- because [ know the conditions in those areas. Mr Tonkin: Hear, hear! However, if members studied the weather pattern in the Avon electorate they would ind that on Mr McIVER: -so that teachers are not many occasions Northam has been the hottest required to go to country areas in order to further town in the State on consecutive days. Surely, their career prospects, because this procedure is therefore, the Government should examine the having a detrimental effect on the education of position to ascertain whether air-conditioning country children. Not only are the schools in the should be installed. Avon electorate affected; it applies to schools all over the State. A principal will formulate a policy Mr Coyne: Have you been to Mullewa? and order equipment, but the following year that Mr McIVER: I have on many occasions. [Tuesday, 24th April, 1979) 6535

I have also tried to obtain finance for a school In addition we must review our rail policies not bus for St Joseph's School. However, I have been only in connection with regional centres, but also told that no funds are available for this purpose. country depots. It is no good our using a pallet- This is despite the fact that the Government is type loading system at Kewdale if there is no-one always slating what it is doing for private schools. at the other end to offload the freight. This seems In view of the thousands of dollars at the to be a bone of contention. Government's disposal, surely if it were sincere it Over the last four years a forklift has been would make finance available to small private introduced at attended sidings, and although this schools which so desperately need it for projects is an improvement, there is still room for a great such as school buses, and so on. Surely they could deal more in that division. So very briefly I have be given a bite of the cherry. Just before each drawn that matter to the attention of the election the Government cannot get to the people Minister. quickly enough to tell them what it has done for We must realise that the days of covered vans private schools in country areas. I know what it has given to the big colleges and I do not agree are coming to an end. Flat-top containers must be with it, because those colleges do not need the utilised in the future for farm-rail to off-farm delivery and vice versa. In the out-of-season funds. Most of the parents of the children attending the big colleges can afford to send their period, when sidings are closed, Westrail trucks children there. However, the small country are utilised to bring wool to the railhead. I know private schools require finance and I would like that many farmers wait for the conclusion of the the Minister for Education to consider this aspect. season to utilise this service, and we cannot blame them for doing so. I would do the same thing in Now, as the Opposition spokesman on their position. We are always being told that transport, I wish to deal with that subject. Westrail must be economically viable, and as it Irrespective of the utterings of the Government, it appears that the system I have outlined is is apparent that in the 1980s we will face a fuel acceptable to the farmers, we should follow it shortage and that more and more reliance will be through. Indeed, we could expand it greatly. placed on our rail system. The first aspect the I now turn to the policy of this Government. On Minister for Transport should consider in this the 16th January it announced regard is freight rates. A record grain harvest has the decision to been transported, but mostly this has been done close the Fremantle-Perth railway line. This is probably the most shocking decision made by the farmers themselves-illegal road by this Government. Despite hauliers-and contractors who can legitimately appeals from thousands of transport the grain when there is no railway line. people from all over the State, the Government intends to close this section of railway. The farmers who have carted their own wheat claim that the freight rates, which we know are At the outset I was absolutely disgusted with astronomical, are far outside their means and they the attitude of the Minister when he received the have called on the Government to study them. In petition from the respective railway unions and some respects I agree with the farmers, from the group known as the Friends of the particularly in respect of the short-haul freight Railways the other night. When the Leader of the rate' which should be compared with the Opposition was asked on television, "Why will the superphosphate freight rate. Labor Government be in office in 1980?" is it any The freight rate per tonne of super over 150 wonder that he replied, "Because of the growing and continued kilometres is $7.74; for 300 kilometres it is arrogance of this Government and $10.08; for 450, $12.5 1; and for 600, it is.$13.95. of its members." We had an example of that arrogance the other The freight rate for wheat per tonne is $8.60 night. The Minister's performance for 150 kilometres; $11.20 for 300; $13.90 for was absolutely disgraceful. The people were told that, 450; and $16.50 for 600. If we are to retain despite custom and attract new custom to the railways, what they said, the line would be closed anyway. particularly on the short hauls, these rates must In other words, the people are being told to just be reconsidered to encourage farmers to utilise do what the Government tells them to. What a the service. Irrespective of what the Minister for dictatorial attitude. We have just heard a speech from the member for Cottesloe about Transport has said in relation to the SWATS democracy and the trade union movement. report, there will be a big demand on the railways in the 1980s. I will not dwell on that agrument Mr Davies: And human rights. because the Minister knows that what I am saying Mr McIVER: Yes, and human rights. The is absolutely correct. All the submissions he has Government is saying that it does not matter what received are based on this. the people of Western Australia want, the 654 654[ASSEMBLY]

Government will do what it wants, irrespective of Finally, in March, 1881, the line was opened to cost. The Minister should be ashamed of his traffic. Not long after that the line from Perth to actions that night. Perhaps it was that he was Guildford was extended to York, to Northam, and nervous, but he certainly handled the situation to other regions in our wheatbelt area. The badly. railways have played a vital part, and are still One of the main reasons for the current chaotic playing a vital part, in the growth and economy of transport System in Western Australia is that this Western Australia, and I say without hesitation, important portfolio has changed hands three they will continue to do so for many years in the times since this Government came to office. future. Our railway service has a wonderful record-it has carried millions of passengers and Mr Barnett: And this is the third Minister that it has never lost one in all its years of operation. does not know what he is doing. By that I mean that since it commenced operating Mr MOIVER: In some ways I feel sorry for the in 1883 no passenger has ever been killed. That is Minister because he is not able to settle down in a splendid record indeed. his new position. He has not been able to consider What are the reasons for the closure? same of the actions he would like to take because of the pressures upon him. The Government chose Mr T. H. Jones: Good question. to change this portfolio again, and this is another Mr Coyne: No patronage. illustration of the Government's attitude. All of a Mr McI VER: I would like to elaborate on the sudden the Government decided to hand over this reasons for the closure. At the outset let me say important portfolio to the former Minister for that the main reason for the closure is the new Local Government. This illustrates the fact that route of Servetus Street. We know that this the Government has not considered its transport proposal has been mooted, despite the denials by policies in depth-its policies are changed as the Premuier and Government Ministers over a frequently as are its Ministers. long period of time. The Government was in the I notice that when the Premier was Minister for hot seat, and something had to be sacrificed, Of Transport, he was not changed around all the course we now know that the something to be time. He sa~w to that, and perhaps our present sacrificed is the Fremantle-Perth railway line. Ministers could follow this example. We are told that the reasons for the closure are Let us now consider the history of the as follows - Fremantle-Perth railway line, so that we can see Declining patronage and no potential for the vital part it has played in the overall growth; expansion of Western Australia. capital cost savings; It was in 1873 that the first suggestion was operating cost savings; made to connect Perth and Fremantle by rail. efficiency in energy usage; Even then there were vested interests who did not road planning benefits; and want this to happen, particularly those who were advantages in removing railway freight making quite a considerable amount of money by traffic. transporting passengers and freight by rivercraft. I am quoting from a document entitled "Urban It is interesting that there were vested interests Public Transport for Perth, Rail and Bus Policy". around in those days, and it is no wonder that This document was handed to me by the Minister, those vested interests did not want a railway. and I thank him for it. However, I notice that this However, the lobbying was successful, and the rail and bus policy came into being only after the commencement or the railway line was deferred Premier's announcement on the 16th January that for two to three years. the line would close. I believe that the policy is a The next proposal was that the line should be result of the pressure and objections that resulted built by a private company with the Government from the announcement of the closure. I am guaranteeing 6 per cent on the capital cost for a certain that the Government did not expect to period of years. This proposal also was not receive so many objections to its announcement, popular, but the Secretary of State of the day said and it is no good now trying to pull the wool over that he would be prepared to raise a loan and that our eyes by producing this policy. the Government should construct the line. This I am sure many members have received reams proposal was adopted. So it was that on the 3rd of correspondence from all over the State in June, 1879, the line was commenced. It is relation to the closure of this line. I have received interesting that the total cost was $74 591-a letters from doctors, directors of companies, and little different from the costs to which we are from people who certainly will not be handing out accustomed today. Labor how-to-vote cards on polling day. So I [Tuesday, 24th April, 19791 6555 disregard the statements made by the Premier patronage on this line of 10.7 per cent. There was that we are playing politics and resorting to a decline in patronage on the Midland-Perth emotionalism on this subject. railway line. I add quickly that that is no reason The people Who wrote to me are well-adjusted to close that line also because of that fact. and well-educated citizens. Obviously they can see Mr Carr: Be careful-it will be closed the detrimental effect the closure of this line will tomorrow. have on the people of Western Australia. I know Mr McIVER: We could resolve this whole that when he replies to the debate the Minister problem overnight if we undertook the following will say, "But these people do not use the railway; exercise: Let us give the Premier and the Minister they do not patronise it." Of course they do not for Transport three children each, one of whom is patronise it; no doubt most of them have their in a pram. We will then ask the Premier and the own mode of transport. However, they can see Minister to catch two buses to travel to Perth, into the future, and they can see the effect this shop for a few hours, and then return home by decision will have. catching two buses again, but this time with a big Because a person does not ride on a train, it bag of groceries, as well as the children and the does not mean he cannot offer his opinion on this pram. subject. Such a person knows full well that the This is what the housewives will have to face Government is making a great blunder. However, after the 1st September, when the line closes and the Government has made a decision in haste, and buses are utilised. Could members see the Premier it does not matter what I say, what the Leader of and the Minister for Transport putting up with the Opposition says, or what any member on this that situation? Of course they could not. side says-that decision will be followed through. However, that is what they are going to inflict on We are told that this State is a democracy, and the housewives of this State. It is all very well for that in this House, arguments are put forward, the Premier and his Ministers, sitting back in and then democratic decisions are reached. their chauffeur-driven Ford LTD sedans; they do However, that will not happen in regard to the not appreciate what the housewives will have to closure of the Fremantle-Perth railway line. I go through. know for a fact that at 9.00 am. today, in the Mr Sodeman: How do the housewives who do Fremantle dock, that section of the rail was not live adjacent to the railway get home from spiked over. To my knowledge this is the first-time their shopping? that such action has been taken before locomotive Mr McI VER: The member for Pilbara could drivers have been advised of it. A weekly notice is talk under water; I do not have time to answer published so that the locomotive drivers know him. where they must reduce speed, where signals are Sir Charles Court: That sort of statement does changed, and other matters of this type. However, on this occasion, action was taken this morning- you no credit. Mr McI VER: Let me turn now to the area of Mr Bertram: Another Joh! capital cost savings. On the Perth-Fremantle line Mr McI VER: Yes, the Queensland people are there are buildings to the value of $214 000, rail worried about fijelke-Petersen knocking down a track to the value of $2.998 million, plant and hotel, but this is more criminal than his actions. equipment worth $7000, and land worth The Government is completely disregarding safety $687 000, a total of $3.906 million. regulations. A moment ago we heard the member for Cottesloe talk about the rights of individuals On top of that, we must include the extensive and the way these rights are attacked during an upgrading which has taken place on this line over the last two years. The permanent way was industrial dispute. What about the rights of the upgraded, automatic signalling installed, people in this situation? buildings upgraded and bridges demolished at a Let us consider the reasons put forward for the cost of thousands of dollars. The upgrading of the closure of the line. The first one is: declining permanent way between Perth and Fremantle patronage and no potential for growth. I could involved expenditure of some $125 000; the quote statistics at length, but I will leave those to installation of automatic signalling cost $368 000; other members because I will not have time to do and it cost some $309 000 to upgrade the so. buildings. If my arithmetic is correct, that A census of rail patronage was taken by the amounts to $802 000, which must be added to the Government in 1976, but there are no figures $3.9Q6 million. If the closure of this line available for 1978. Looking at the figures we do represents a saving of money, by jove, my have, we see that there was an increase in economics need a little brushing up! 656 656ASSEM BLY]

In addition, the Minister for Transport just on oil for 70 per cent of its primary energy cannot get away with saying he will transfer the requirements. railcars freed by the closure of the Perth- "This is a high degree of dependence and Fremantle line to the Perth-Midland and Perth- poses the most significant and urgent aspect Armadale lines; he must include the value of - of our State energy policy-to conserve and those cars in his costs. If the people who prepared reduce our future consumption of oil- this document had considered this matter in more depth, instead of trying to hurry it through, they That in part is what our State Minister for Fuel would have included those railcars in the entire and Energy was reported as saying. costs; however, they did not. The report Recently I attended a symposium on transport contradicts itself on nearly every page, and is not held at the Riverside Lodge. One of the speakers a reliable document on which to base such an was the Chairman of the State Energy important decision. Commission (Mr Bruce Kirkwood) who presented I was not able to obtain the information a paper the substance of which supported what relating to the value of Crown land along this Mr Mensaros had to say. He stated categorically line, but the figures 1 have quoted are authentic, that rail transport did not use as much fuel as bus and I am prepared to make them available to the transport. Minister so that he may check them. In fact, the I quote now from a railway magazine titled figures relating to the upgrading of the permanent Network, where the following appears- way were provided by the Minister himself in In last months Network we noted that the answer to a question I directed to him. I know the 700.000 kilolitres of diesel fuel used by all Minister would not mislead the House. the railways in Australia represented under Mr Bryce: We do not share your confidence. 2% of the total oil product use, and about Mr McIVER: It is quite obvious that too little 12% of the total diesel fuel use; and that the diesel railways lifted almost 4% of the preparation has gone into this document and,' indeed, into this ridiculous decision to close the national people-moving task with under 2% Perth-Fremantle line. of the total transport energy, and almost 28% of the total freight-moving task with under The Government claims great savings in energy 5% of the energy. will result in converting to bus transport; it says we are going to save thousands and thousands of Most of the modern trends in railway tonnes of fuel by replacing the trains. However, it operation will serve further to improve on is a fact-irrespective of what the Minister or his rail's already economical use of diesel fuel: advisers may claiMh--that railcars, do not use as higher-payload wagons, heavier trains, better much fuel as buses. tracks, more efficient 'gravity' marshalling yards, unit trains to avoid marshalling Mr Jamieson: Per passenger kilometre. entirely, more powerful and fuel-efficient Mr MOIVER: Yes; however, I do not intend to third-generation diesel locomotives- go into statistics at this stage. I am not The article continues with some technical exaggerating the savings in energy enjoyed by rail information. However, the essence of the matter transport. In fact, I intend to quote what our own Minister for Fuel and.Energy had to say on the is contained in the following paragraph- matter. The article appears in The West The fuel bill represents a smaller share of Australian of Monday, the 2nd April, and states the government railways' total costs than is as follows- the case with other transport modes. Since buy their fuel in bulk,- WARN ING ON WA's FUEL POSITION the railways This is very important to note, Mr Minister. The The Minister for Fuel and Energy, Mr article continues- Mensaros, has warned that WA's energy -istributing and storing it themselves, it situation is less satisfactory than that of costs them only 8-11 cents per litre; since Australia as a whole. they maintain their own tracks, the railways The State had only about three per cent of pay no, fuel excise (road tax). The figures Australia's total fossil fuel resources, he said. vary greatly but, typically, diesel fuel Mr Mensaros issued his warning in a accounts for around 5% of a government preface to the State Government's energy railway system's total operating costs- policy for WA. There are the facts. It is quite apparent to all who The policy is the first for any Australian care to study the position that the use of trains State. Mr Mensaros said that WA depended involves a great energy saving over bus transport. [Tuesday, 24th April, 1979]15 657

This statement does not come only from me; it The Minister for Transport of the day cannot has been made also by Mr Bruce Kirkwood and get off the hook, either, because in The West by the author of the Network article; no doubt, a Australian of the 4th September, 1976, the tremendous amount of research went into that following article appeared- article. FREMANTLE TRAINS I wish now to highlight the hypocrisy of this GO ON-MINISTER Government in its recent decision to close the line between Perth and Fremantle. I have attended The Minister for Transport, Mr O'Connor, several functions where the Premier has been yesterday denied that the State Government was planning to withdraw present. In fact, I just mentioned one, a the Perth- symposium on transport. Principally, however, I Fremantle passenger rail service. remember his remarks at the opening of the The Minister's comments followed statements by Westrail centre. I cannot remember what he said the State Secretary of the Australian Railways word for word, but the main theme of his speech Union (Mr Jim Hanley) and myself, as was that the Perth-Fremantle railway would not Opposition spokesman on transport at the close, that the Government wanted it and, Australian Labor Party State Conference. The irrespective of what people said, it would not article continued- allow it to close. He reassured the Westrail This put paid to the ALP claim-made officers present that this would be the case. earlier this week at the ALP State Mr Pearce: When did he say that? conference-that the Government was Mr Bertram: That must have been before an planning to withdraw the service. election. On Wednesday, the president of the WA Mr McI VER: It was during the opening of the Amalgamated Society of Railway Westrail centre. The Premier's speech is on tape Employees, Mr R. Collie, told the conference if he would like me to obtain it for that the Perth regional transport him. coordinating committee had recommended to In 1975, the Premier was reported in The West the Government that the service be Australian as making the following statement- withdrawn. The WA Government wants to maintain So, all this hogwash about patronage and about rail passenger services in the metropolitan saving fuel has nothing to do with this situation; it area at a maximum instead of replacing them is entirely irrelevant. The article continued- with busways. The Government believes that long-term considerations should not be Mr O'Connor also dismissed allegations overlooked. that the Government had neglected the WA transport system. However, in The West Australian of the 17th January this year the following article appears- That shows the arrogance and hypocrisy of this Government, to which the Leader of the Passenger services on the Perth-Fremantle Opposition already has referred. These are the railway are to be scrapped and replaced by a issues which are going to get the Opposition into bus service... Government. Oppositions do not win government; Sir Charles said that a survey showed that Governments lose government. This issue will lose in 1977 an average of only 9800 passenger this Government office. I say most emphatically it journeys were made each week day on the will result in the loss of many votes at the line forthcoming election. The people of Western That is a false and misleading statement on which Australia will get to know the full facts of the no doubt my colleagues will elaborate, because matter and will evaluate for themselves the rights during 1977-78, total suburban patronage and wrongs of the situation. increased by 10.7 per cent. It is impossible for the When the Opposition becomes Government, it Government to pinpoint one line and say that only will not only retain the line but also will extend it a certain number of passengers had used that to the growth areas of Rockingham and the service, because no record is kept due to the way southern region, and the line will be electrified. the ticket collectors operate. Their collecting Do not say. "You will not have the money" machines do not register how many passengers because a Labor Government would indulge in get on and detrain. The Government has no some sensible housekeeping, and would save a record; it is indulging in simple guesswork in great deal of money which presently is being order to mislead the people into accepting its wasted by this Government. This Government has decision to close the Perth-Fremantle line. wasted millions of dollars on its procrastination 658 658ASSEMBLY] with the Muja power station, and it has cost the use in the metropolitan system have been in use State further millions in having to convert the for in excess of 30 years. They are completely run generators at Kwinana from oil firing to dual oil down. and coal firing, simply because it did not make We condemn the Government for doing nothing the correct decision in the 1960s. The member for about it. If we look at the policies and trends in Collie has been telling the Government about this other parts of Australia we find there is a turn for years. The Government of the day used to back to rail passenger transport systems. laugh when he continually wanted to know the Members should look at the position in Brisbane price it was paying for oil. The Government is not where the Government there is extending its laughing now, because the chickens have come system which will improve the efficiency home to roost. of its service by 2$ per cent. In New South Wales we I can only hope when the Opposition gains see that both Liberal and Labor Governments power there will be a true approach to democracy have embarked on programmes of upgrading their in Western Australia. I would expect that such a railway systems; introducing double-decker Government would be a Government of the railway cars and providing a service people are people, for the people, by the people. I hope that pleased to use. We see similar moves in Victoria time arrives soon and we get our transport system and we know that moves are now taking place in working in a manner which will assist everyone. South Australia to upgrade the service in that State. Amendment to Motion But what is the situation in Western Australia? Mr MOIVER: So, for the reasons I have For some reason or other this Government is hell- outlined, I move an amendment to the Address- bent on doing away with our suburban railway in-Reply in the following terms- system. As the member for Avon rightly said, this That the following words be added to the Government is known as the Court dictatorship motion- Government. It does not listen to people any ...but we regret to inform Your more. It puts into action those things it wants to Excellency that the transport policies do, no matter what. That is the name of the game. being followed by your Government are The people who have signed the petitions are inadequate and inappropriate to the wondering whether the day will come when the State's needs, particularly with regard Government will rethink its policy and consider to: the interests of the people it purports to represent. (i) The closure of the Perth-Fremantle It cannot be denied that the railway system is railway; run down. What has the Government done to (ii) the rundown in rail services encourage people to use it? Can any member throughout the State; and opposite tell me what the Government has done to (iii) freight policies which are not encourage people to use our suburban railway implemented with proper regard for system? I shall pause for a reply. the users of the service. There is no reply. Members opposite are all MR T. HI. JONES (Collie) [8.31 p.m.]: I have silent. They are silent because in the party room much pleasure in supporting the amendment so they have been told what to do. It is not a ably moved by the member for Avon. lHe has to question of merit or what sort of case the be commended for the strong case he has Opposition puts forward; it is a question of what presented on behalf of those people who are the Premier dictates in the party room. Can opposed to rail closures in Western Australia. It members opposite indicate one positive step taken would be true to say there are many questions by the Court Government to improve the that remain unanswered. suburban railway system in Western Australia? The member for Avon asked what other The Opposition looks forward to the next closures are contemplated. We in the Opposition election. As the member representing the have witnessed a depletion of the railway system coalfields, I strongly opposed the Government's in Western Australia for several years. We have decision to burn oil at Kwinana. When the drawn this to the attention of the Government on decision was made we could not ind out the price every appropriate occasion. It could not be denied of oil. It was a secret. The Government would not that the Government has, in our view, purposely tell the people. It was only when the Tonkin let the metropolitan railway system run down to Labor Government came to office that the its lowest ebb. If investigations were made they situation was revealed and we knew for the first would reveal that some of the units at present in time what the SEC was paying for oil. [Tuesday, 24th April, 1979]69 659

What has this Government done, and what did the strong man at the time and the member for the former Brand Government do, for overseas oil Welshpool will undoubtedly support my remarks. combines? The Government saw to it the Mr Jamieson: My word! combines did not pay wharfage charges. I do not know whether the public are aware of this, but Sir Charles Court: Don't talk rot! members opposite know. In a deal to attract the Mr T. H. JONES: The Premier knows I am not oil combines to the State the Government said it talking rot. would allow them to be exempt from the payment Mr Bryce: We will make it your epitaph. of wharfage charges. The Government said not to Mr T. H. JONES: That decision was one of the worry about what the Australian iron and steel biggest tragedies to be faced by the State. Down people were paying for wharfage; and it said not the drain went $80 million because the to worry about what the wheat people were Government went against world trends. It was not paying for wharfage. The Government said it a question of the Government embarking on a would make a deal with the oil combines. policy it thought was the trend; all the world was The Government should be criticised for the going back to coal. Britain and other parts of the millions of dollars its decision cost taxpayers, yet world where there were reserves of coal turned to here it is saying that because the MIT has coal. Our Premier said we would go to oil. This is alleged the rail service from Perth to Fremantle is the penalty we have had to pay. run down, it has to go. I hope the Government Sir Charles Court: You great hindsight know- rethinks this move. all. Surely we are not going to have a repetition of Mr Jamieson: You would have been sacked if the power generation policies introduced by the you had been in private enterprise. Brand Government in the 1960s. At a time when Mr T. H. JONES: I am only referring to the rest of the world was swinging back to coal capital costs. The cost of power generation at the Government decided to swing to oil. That step Kwinana was three times greater than the costs at was contrary to the policies then enunciated and Muja. The pensioners and the low-income wage implemented in other parts of the world. earners have paid the penalty for these blunders. However, the Premier said at the time he knew what Two years ago I visited Sweden, the United he was doing. He said he would not listen to States of America, and other parts of the world. the Collie miners' union or the member for Collie. He said he knew Everywhere I toured I saw the extension of he was right. electric railway systems. Can any member who The Opposition said it was only a matter of has been on a tour such as I had point to where time before the folly of this move became obvious. railways are being closed down in major The man who recommended those policies is the countries? Of course he cannot, because it is not Premier who is now leading this State into a occurring. Take the situation with the tragedy so far as the Government's tranport underground system in London. The people there policy is concerned. These policies will be a have seen the necessity to extend that system to tragedy for the pensioners and the rest of the Heathrow Airport in order to overcome the people of this State. congestion on their roadways. It is the same story The decision to use oil was a mistake which in San Francisco and Sweden. Everywhere we see cost the taxpayers of this State some $80 million. the extension of the railway systems. The Premier made two mistakes. The first Mr Jamieson: In Melbourne. mistake was the deferment of the extensions to the Muja power house at Collie, and the second Mr T. H. JONES: Yes, in Melbourne also. The was that he did not install the dual-fired units at Premier's colleague in that State is not going Kwinana. along with this Government's policy. The Premier finds himself out on a limb. His policies cannot be Sir Charles Court: If you keep saying it often matched with policies in other parts of the world. enough you will believe it. I was not the Minister It will be the pensioners with their fixed incomes for Electricity. who will pay for these blunders. The pensioners Mr Bryce: Who succumbs to the pressure of the cannot get concessions. oil lobby and then the nuclear lobby? With the expansion taking place in this State, Mr T. H. JONES: I was secretary of the can members visualise the congestion on our roads miners' union and the Premier was chairman of in 50 years' time? In fact, not 50 years' time, but the subcommittee appointed by Cabinet. Had it by the turn of the century. Are the people in the not been for the Premier the Kwinana station gallery, or Opposition members, happy about the would not have been extended. The Premier was number of cars on the roadways now? It will not 660 660[ASSEMBLY] be many years-specially on our member for Avon has said; that is, that this is the freeways-before we find ourselves in the same most dictatorial Government ever to govern in position as Bangkok. Singapore, and New York. Western Australia. If anyone has experienced driving in those places. We could consider several aspects on this he will know the seriousness of the situation. subject. We see the modern diesels and the Once a rail system is closed, will it reopen? The modern truck units being built. We also see the tragedy is that because of the capital expense poor old guard's van which has been in service involved this is not likely to happen. The since the 1920s. What a spectacle. Anything is Government should be doing as the member for good enough for the poor guard. We have modern Avon has suggested. The Government should not trucks and modern diesels, bitt old guards' vans. be looking at the closure of the Perth-Fremantle Again this is just a stop,-gap method from day to line, but at extending our rail system to the north day. and other areas. This would be a sensible The Premier cannot deny that the Fraser proposition and would receive the support of the Government has called on all States to embark on average taxpayer of the State. an energy-saving policy. His own views are on The member for Avon referred to the record in tonight's issue of the Daily News. Government as a dictatorial Government, and its Indeed, recently the Federal Minister made a record shows this to be true. Members should statement calling on Governments to introduce consider the fuel and energy Bill and the matter measures to save fuel. of referable dams. The latter involves the farmers The Premier would well know that as a lead the of the State. The Government did not go near the New Zealand Government has introduced farmers to obtain their opinion. It simply said, legislation preventing people from using private "This is the legislation and this is how the Court vehicles on a Sunday afternoon. This indicates the Government will play the game." seriousness with which the New Zealand Then we had the off-road vehicle Bill which Government views the oil crisis. involved local authorities in its administration, What would be the situation in Western but did the Government go near local authorities Australia if we had another oil crisis, in view of and ask them for their opinion on the legislation? our heavy dependence on overseas imported fuel? Of course it did not. It introduced the legislation and stipulated that they must administer it. This is the question the Opposition raises. The Minister would well know our dependence on Mr Nanovich: That is not right. overseas fuel oil, and I will refer to this matter Mr T. H. JONES: The honourable member again in a moment. knows it is. On behalf of the people involved and who will Mr Nanovich: You are wrong. The be affected by the closure, I appeal strongly to the Government did so. Government to re-examine the situation. In the Mr. T. H. JONES: It did not. The member for opinion of the Opposition the Government has not Whitford should contact the LGA. If he did so he made out a case for the closure of the line in would Find he is wrong. question. What occurred last Thursday week in this As the member for Avon said, the figures Chamber? The Farmers' Union came to the released in the urban public transport report for Labor Opposition in an effort to get something Perth in April were not correct. The physical done about the curtailment of land clearing and counts were done in 1977 in Armadale on the payment for resumptions which were involved. Tuesday, the 26th April, in Midland on Last week I gave the views of the Farmers' Union Wednesday, the 27th, and in Fremantle on which stated that this is one of the most Thursday, the 28th. Of course the railway officers dictatorial Governments ever to govern in the consider that on Mondays, Tuesdays and history of Western Australia. It was not the Wednesdays there is always a higher patronage Labor Party saying that, but the farmers' Union, than on Thursdays and Fridays. the members of which normally belong to the The count for Fremantle was underestimated. I NCP or the Liberal Party. What did those people am not suggesting that the Armadale section do? They came to the Labor Party as a last-ditch should be closed, because I am against any effort. They had nowhere else to go. closure. If we study the figures made available to Members will 'recall that last Thursday week I the Opposition we Aind they contradict the figures read the views clearly spelt out by the Farmers' presented in the urban transport study made Union and they were in line with what the available by the Minister for Transport. [Tuesday, 24th April, 1979]16 661

This is the situation. On the Fremantle line, Australia Network" in September, 1977? He which covers a distance of 19 kilometres, the said- estimate for 1977 was 9 858 passengers, which We must face up to the fact that we have represents 519 people per kilometre. On the seen the last of cheap petrol and oil. Its not Midland line, which covers 16 kilometres, the hard to draw the conclusion that confronted patronage was 14 179, which represents an with this situation plus a voluntary--or average of 886 people; while on the Armadale compulsory-fuel conservation programme, line, covering 30 kilometres, 10 801 passengers the people will turn back to public transport. were involved, representing an average of 360 That is not the view of a Labor person, but of the passengers per kilomnetre. If we are to argue costs. Liberal Minister for Transport in Victoria. It a stronger case could be made out for the cannot be denied that the price of oil will retention of the Fremantle-Perth section than for increase. By the late 1980s we will have a 70 per the Armadale line. I would like to hear what the cent dependence on foreign oil. This is only Minister has to say in relation to the figures I conjecture of course because no-one knows. But have quoted. what a hopeless mess we will be in. What is the In the urban transport study no mention was alternative? We should be embarking on a made of an extension of the railway system. programme for the electrification of our railway Rockingham people must rely on road transport system because this scheme has worked despite the heavy congestion on the roads. So also successfully in other parts of the world. do the people to the north of the city. The modern electric rail system is more We must bear in mind that the cost of efficient than any system which could be extending railway lines is, according to figures introduced on the roads. Take the situation on obtained on behalf of the Opposition, hair of that Stirling Highway for instance. That is a very involved in the extension of freeways. Will the congested road, to say the least. However, this Minister refute those figures? The information we congestion will increase considerably following have obtained is as I have outlined it. the closure of the railway line. We say that the We are not on our own in this particular cars should be taken off that highway because concern because people throughout the then greater utilisation would be made of the world-prominent people associated with railway service if an efficient service were made transport-are arguing the same as we are available to the public. tonight. With your permission, Mr Speaker, I It must be realised of course that the rail would like to quote two such opinions. The first is closure would increase road travel and so further that of' E. R. Meyer, Chairman and Chief deplete our petroll and oil supplies. Is the Minister Executive of Swiss Aluminium Ltd., given in a as concerned as I am about our future supplies of speech to the Organisation of European oil? As I pointed out a moment ago, a mistake Aluminiumn Smelters in September, 1977, reading was made when our power generation was as follows- designed to rely on oil. In that respect we have learnt by our mistakes, otherwise why is the It is no exaggeration to say that the conversion taking place at Kwinana? Is it only a majority of the world's population, many matter of price, or is it because of our dependence leaders of industry and many persons in on oil as a fuel for power generation? important political positions do not have the faintest idea of the gravity of the power We could Find ourselves in a hopeless situation problem with which we will all be faced by were we to increase our bus traffic at the expense about the middle of the eighties and which of rail transport. The energy problem involves oil, will grow more dramatic in each succeeding not coal, because we have no coal problems at all. year. We have abundant supplies of coal-in fact, some 500 million tonnes of proven extractable reserves, That is not the opinion pof the Opposition, but of a plus a further 500 million tonnes which could be person who has had world experience, in transport obtained by the shaft method. There is no problems. problem in Western Australia concerning supplies Anyone who has studied the oil situation will of coal. know that by 1985, unless we find further oil In view of the world scene we should be supplies, there will be a reduction in the embarking on a policy of electrification of our rail availability of oil throughout the world. system. When he replies, will the Minister tell the What did the Victorian Liberal Minister for House and the people in the gallery the real Transport say, as reported in "Railways of reason which motivated the Government to 662 662[ASS EM BLY) announce its decision to close this section of Mr T. H-.Jones: What year was that? railway line as from the 1st September? Mr RUSHTON: Right throughout the whole We have no idea of the congestion which will of the period. occur on our roads. However, we do know the Sir Charles Court: The great rehabilitation of situation will be far worse than it is at present in the railways took place between 1960 and 1967. peak hours. Will our roads be capable of handling Mr T. H. Jones: The Minister did not know. the traffic to the Royal Show and to the football and other large sporting events? In our opinion Sir Charles Court: The member (or Avon will the answer is to consider the electrification of the tell you. From a broken down system it improved railway system. With those remarks I immensely. wholeheartedly support the amendment so ably Mr Jamieson: Stop patting yourself on the moved by the member for Avon. back; you will break your arm. MR RUSHTON (Dale-Minister for The SPEAKER: Order! Transport) [8.57 p.m.]: I am pleased we have the Mr RUSHTON: I listened to members opportunity to debate this issue in the House; in opposite so that I could absorb all that was said, fact, I have been looking forward to it for some and I was hoping I would receive the same time. Since the decision was announced on the consideration. 16th January we have been waiting for the Mr T. H. Jones: I asked one simple question. Opposition to indicate its policy on urban transport. Of course we are still waiting and Mr RUSHTON: I will not deal at length with unfortunately such a policy has not been given part (ii) of the amendment. During the last ive even tonight. We have had only generalisations years-and not relating back to the time of the and their presentation has been round wanting. Brand Government-a sum of $95 million has been injected into the railway system. A sum This is deplorable and regrettable. or over $22 million has been provided in the present We took the opportunity to give the Opposition Budget. I am giving statistical data so that a background to our decision and the member for members will know what has happened. Avon used this extensively. I appreciate his kind remarks relating to the preparation of that Last year there was an expenditure of $8 information and the fact that we made it available mil lion on improving the permanent way; there is a five-year $90 million rehabilitation project for to him. As he knows, this was done because on the this subject so much has been presented over nine Koolyanobbing-Kwinana railway; and years. $311 000 will be spent on a rebuilding programme With regard to passenger coaches for the Mr Bertram: Since when has this Government Australind service. taken any heed of what the Opposition said, for goodness sake? Mr Jamieson: Why is it necessary to spend money on the Koolyanobbing line so soon after Mr RUSHTON: I will apply myself to the the original line was put down in 1960? three issues before us, but because I believe the desire more coverage of the first Mr RUJSHTON: I intended to give the figures House would progressively, but I can reply of the Fremantle-Perth to that question point-that is, the closure immediately. railway line-I will deal briefly with the other two items first. Mr Jamieson: It would be interesting to hear With regard to the rundown in railway services the reason. throughout the State, I would say that anyone Mr RUSHTON: The reason is that at the time who has taken an interest in railways over a the Government put the proposition to the number of years would realise that they took on a Commonwealth, it did propose heavier rail. new image and new economy during the Brand However, insufficient funds were available so we Government's era when so much was done to give were not able to build with a heavier line. them a new purpose. This was recognised by Mr Jamieson: That is not exactly the case. The employees in the railway system at a time when then Minister could tell you. It was a shoddy job, their morale was lifted to a great extent because too. they felt they had a definite purpose. I find it Mr RUSHTON: it is also planned that a interesting to speak to men who have been with freight line will go south of the Swan River, and Westrail and the WAUR for many years. They that will improve the working or the railway have confirmed this recognition. system and relieve the Centre of the city from It was recognised that was the time when so freight trains. A sum of more than $500 000 has much had to be done to give the railways a future. been spent on a major maintenance programme [Tuesday, 24th April, 19791 6636 on the Perth-Armadale tine. The money spent on support in a number of ways with regard to what tankers and wagons by Westrail demonstrates in we are proposing. I trust the members of the some measure what has been going on. So, part Opposition, who claim they are interested in our (ii) of the amendment is easily refuted. railway system, will see the wisdom of what we Part (iii) refers to freight policies which are not are attempting to do. implemented with proper regard for the users of I will refer back quickly to the speeches which the service. This is one area in which I am have been presented this evening. Not much has confident the member for Avon will be very been said and, therefore, there is not much for me pleased to know of the work being done. He raised to reply to. My great concern is that a policy has the issue of short haul. I can say that this matter not been proposed. Members opposite have is being looked at at the present time. More than spoken in generalities and have not endeavoured that, I am very pleased to be able to say we have to tackle the problems. made an extensive study of our freight policy. The Mr T. H. Jones: What is electrification, if it is member for Avon would know we are moving not a policy? towards introducing the new policy as soon as practicable. Mr RUSHTON: Members opposite need to come forward with issues which relate to the Both New South Wales and South Australia Perth-Fremantle corridor. We have not had any are facing problems with regard to their freight policies or answers tonight. policies. I am sure all members will have due regard for the challenge, and the opportunity for Mr Jamieson; What you are proposing does not success. I believe that in the short term Westrail answer the problem either. should have every opportunity to cart bulk Mr RUSHTON: The member for Welshpool commodities. will have an opportunity to speak. Of course, we have had examples of hypocrisy tonight. The The way to improve the freight system seems to be to carry out a change over a period of some Opposition has made many charges but it has not come years by placing Westrail in a more competitive forward with an alternative proposition, and position. Westrail should be able to cart bulk that. is very hypocritical indeed. commodities as of right, and the road system Mr T. H. Jones: What is the use of putting should be able to take up those items of freight forward an alternative, anyway? which Westrail cannot handle efficiently and Mr Mclver: We will retain the line; you won't economically. get anyone to move it. Of course, there will need to be a phasing-in Mr RUSH-TON: Let us have a look at the period. However, I trust we will be able to present background of our railway system. The system this system to the people of Western Australia in has been with us for a long time. I am very happy the not-too-distant future. indeed that the Opposition has brought itself to I am hopeful that in the next financial year we the notice of the public tonight. It has presented will be able to come forward with the new policy. nothing. Those people who are listening will know I believe the member for Avon will recognise this that we have no case to answer. I will now refer to as something that is being done, and I am at the issues which have to be solved. present waiting for him to make a submission on Mr Jamieson: You would be runny if you could behalf of the Opposition-if he can do it in a be, but you cannot be! reasonably short time-so that we will know the Mr RUSHTON: I will refer to some words thoughts and the recommendations relating to the spoken by the member for Welshpool but, firstly, philosophy of SWATS. We are now working I will recite two Labor Government decisions of towards the introduction of the new freight the past. The Hawke Government was faced with. transport policy. the responsibility of looking into the transport With regard to "relating to people" members system north of Perth. It was suggested then that will be aware that during the last couple of a suburban line should be constructed branching months I have travelled extensively throughput off the present railway near Daglish, travelling to this State and I have spoken to the people on the Reabold Hill, and then north through City Beach receiving end. I know something of their opinions and North Beach. Another line was to start at with regard to proposals, and I am very pleased to Bayswater and go northwards through Morley to be able to state in this House that, in the main, the State Housing Commission residential area the response has been very practicable and near Wanneroo Road. Those were the proposals responsible. I am hoping we will be able to move put forward in 1955 when the Hawke forward fairly quickly, and that we will receive Government was in office. 664 664[ASSEMBLY]

Mr Jamieson: That has nothing to do with the Mr Bertram: Your next shift will be to housing. present situation. Mr RUSHTON: The member for Welshpool Mr RUSHTON: The Government of the day said that the first step towards improving a made the decision that the area would be best transport system was to encourage the use of a served by road transport. That is the background. public transport system. That was the policy; I will now turn to what the member for people not paying for the service of an urban Welshpool had to say in 1972. passenger transport system. So, I took out some Mr .Jamieson: You had better be positive figures and they proved to be most interesting. because I have the Act right in front of me. Going back to 1969-70, the total deficit in that Mr RUSH-TON. On the 9th May, 1972, the year for bus and rail was $4.l million. With the member for Welshpool-the then Minister for added deficit of the public transport, if it was Works-introduced a Bill entitled the Perth free, it would have been $12 million. Regional Railway Bill. It was assented to on the Mr Mclver. Are you including the interest rate 6th December, 1972, but it was not proclaimed. in that? Mr Mclver: It was necessary legislation at the Mr RUSHTON: I will come to that. lIn 1970- time. 71, the loss was $5.3 million, and with the added Mr RUSHTON: The purpose of that Bill was cost of free passenger services it would have been to construct an underground railway through the $13.7 million. In 1971-72, the loss was $7.4 city, to electrify six miles and two chains of million, and that would have gone up to $16 railway, and to replace the Perth-Fremantle million with free services. In 1972-73, the loss was passenger service with a bus service. $9.1 million, which would have increased to $17.6 Mr Jamieson: No. million. So I could go on, but I will bring the figures to a closer time and refer to the last three Mr Mclver: That is incorrect. years. The deficit for the period 1976-77 was Mr RUSHTTON: Let me repeat the words- $20.5 million and with the combination of the two Mr Jamieson: You cannot read the Bill. services-the free passenger services-the figure Sir Charles Court: The present member for would have been $36.9 million. For 1977-78, the Avon was a party to that Bill. deficit was $25.4 million and the total would have been $41.6 million. The esiimate for 1978-79 was Mr RUSHTON: The purpose of that Bill was $27.8 million, and with free passenger transport to close the railway from a point near Leighton, that figure would have been $43.6 million. Added and take it to Barrack Street over a right of way. to that would have to be the deficit if the railways Do members opposite deny that? had been electrified. Mr Jamieson: I deny it because that is not in Referring to a comment earlier by the memtier the Act. for Collie, it is interesting to note that the total Mr Hassell: It is in the speech of the present cost for elect ri ficat ion, in today's figures, has been member for Welshpool. projected at $120 million. Interest at 9.5 per cent Mr Jamieson: I have before me the Act which amounting to $11.4 million and was passed. The Minister knows he is acting like a depreciation-giving a life of 30 years-of $4 little schoolboy. million, would give a total of $15.4 million. A The SPEAKER: Order! combination of the estimated deficits amounts to $61.7 million, which is a little more than double Mr RUSHTON: Let me go to the next fact. the present figure. When I asked the member opposite for a copy of discussions on issues relating to railway services Mr T. H. lanes: Can you say that the price of between Perth and Fremantle, which the member oil will not increase rapidly? had with the railways unions, he kindly sent me a Mr RUSHTON: I will deal with that shortly. copy of the Opposition policy, and a copy of the The point I am making is that I have identified Opposition platform. where the Labor Opposition would be heading if Mr Clarko: Was it entitled, "I'll walk beside in fact it had to make the decisions. It would you!" bankrupt this State very quickly. Mr RUSHTON: I thank the member for Mr Mclver: We could not do any worse than Welshpool for his courtesy, but 1 was looking for waste $120 million. the Opposition policy relating to urban transport Mr RUSH-TON: If members opposite were in the metropolitan area. Of course, the making the decisions the people would have to Opposition does not have one. pay through the nose in increased fares. [Tuesday, 24th April. 1979]65 665

Mr Jamieson: Not necessarily. opposite present facts, I will have them Mr T. H. Jones: We would not have wasted $80 thoroughly investigated. If members opposite million on power generation. claim that buses used on that run are more Mr Tonkin: That was $80 million to please oil efficient than trains- companies. Mr T. H. Jones: How old are the buses, and Mr RUSHTON: The Wran Government when was the last diesel locomotive purchased? gained office on the promise of a reduction in Mr RUSHTON: The diesels which have been fares, but now it has had to increase fares. The purchased are convertible to LP gas, and so there transport system or that State is now costing half is an alternative fuel. I have indicated that in the a billion dollars and an inquiry is being conducted summary I made. I am inviting members opposite into it. to give me a presentation in this respect. I would Mr Mclver: They reduced rates by 25 per cent like those people who have signed the petition in when they went into office. good faith to make out a case that refutes that of the Government. If that is done, we could Mr RUSHTON: I am very grateful to the reconsider our point of view. member for Avon for some other remarks he made recently. I am sure the people listening to However, let me point out what has occurred this debate will realise the deficiency in the over the years. For nine years extensive research reasoning of the Opposition. Recently, the has been carried out into future transport Modes member for Avon, for whom I have a high regard within the metropolitan area. Every consideration as a person, but whose logic left him on this .has been given to the efficiency of fuel and to occasion, made some comments. costs; and repeatedly the recommendation has been to revert to buses. In fact, during the term of Mr McIQer: What are you quoting from now? the Tonkin Government- You have written so many books. Mr Tonkin: Great years. Mr RUSHTON: I am about to quote The West Australian of Tuesday, the 20th March. Mr RUSHTON: They were sad years for transport, because the Tonkin Government did Mr Mclver: That is liable to say anythinrg. nothing but explore other systems: and the end Mr RUJSH-TON: I could not believe that the result was that nothing was done. In fact, in the member for Avon would say what he was reported end the Bureau of Transport Economics found to have said, because he is an old railway man; that the submissions made were once more in and when I suggested a mistake could have been favour of buses. made the newspaper did not print that because it This Government has made a decision that it realised I could be implying that it made an error.' However, the member's comments have been will give rail every opportunity. In (act we are confirmed. now going to have new railcars, something the Tonkin Government did not do. Do members Mr Mclver: The only decent thing you get in opposite oppose that or do they support it? On the that newspaper is fish and chips. Midland and Armadale routes we intend to Mr RUSHiTON: This article concerns my improve facilities to encourage people to use those figures on average fuel consumption, and the services. member for Avon is reported as follows- Mr T. H. Jones: How much will you spend? Mr Mclver said yesterday that Mr Mr RUSHTON: That is contained in the Rushton's figures were misleading because programme which will be released. The point I they were based on costs per passenger- make is this: we have projected what we are doing kilometre and not on cost per kilometre. in a positive way to the Parliament and to the Naturally, if the fuel costs are spread public. In addition we have told the public that on between every passenger carried the cost on the northern route a reserve will be retained buses is lower because buses carry capable of carrying a rapid transit service; and the substantially more passengers then trains,"' same will be done in respect of the Fremantle- he said. Perth route. So we have a comprehensive policy However, there was little doubt that trains related to cost, energy, and passenger service. So would go farther than buses on an equal much detail is involved that I had the summary amount of fuel, he said. This was the prepared; and the member for Avon has used that important criterion of fuel comparison. summary extensively tonight. That is what the Opposition must get into its head I would hope that anybody who has a real on the matter of fuel efficiency. When members interest in the Perth-Fremantle railway and the 666 666[ASS EM BLY] decisions taken and the reasons for them will take I have received an indication by third hand-I advantage of my offer to make available a copy of ,think it was by phone call-that the union is the summary so that he will be able to see the opposed to the removal of the freight service in reasons behind the decisions. the centre of Perth. That to me is most Mr Mclver: Do you not concede that it deplorable, and I think most people would object contradicts itself? to that sort of dictatorship. Mr RUSHTON: It does not. I have invited the To my mind that freight service can be placed member to present a proposition to me either in south of the city when the cost factor is most writing or personaly- advantageous; that is, when the Kwinana- Koolyanobbing railway is rehabilitated. The Mr Mclver: What about your patronage Opposition must make up its mind whether in fact figures; they are not accurate? it supports such a change in respect of the freight Mr RUSHTON: I thank the member for service, which will allow the city to blossom. reminding me because I might have forgotten The other point I want to make is that at about those figures. Let me give him the latest present some rail carriages are held up, I think at figures. Midland, because members of the union refuse to Mr Mclver: How did you arrive at them? work on them. Let the Opposition make up its mind about that. Mr RUSHTON: They were compiled by the Western Australian branch of the Australian Mr T. H. Jones: Will that save the line? Bureau of Statistics-an independent body-on Mr RUSHTON: I am suggesting that action is behalf of the MTT. They were taken out recently counter- prod uctive to running a viable transport in respect of Tuesdays, Wednesdays, and system. Thursdays. Mr Bertram: What has the Opposition to do Mr Mclver: On the Perth- Fremantle run? with that? It has no power over that. Mr RUSHTON: Yes. The figures show that Mr RUSHTON: I am asking members since 1970 the patronage has decreased by 19.3 opposite to comment on the matter. per cent, or a decrease of 1405 persons. Mr Mclver: It is an industrial matter which has Mr Mclver: What about 1978? nothing to do with us. Mr RUSH-TON: The previous figures were for Mr RUSHTON; The member for Avon the 1977-78 year, and the recent figures were indicated to me that he supports a ban on certain compiled to obtain origin and destination works-an illegal action which will only denigrate statistics. It is indeed deplorable that some of the the union. This union has amongst its members railway employees endeavoured to obstruct the many good people who certainly have the good of the railways at heart, and I would like to give obtaining of the statistics. In fact, they urged them every encouragement to help transform the people not to participate. Whilst patronage railway system into a far more viable operation figures are accurate, some people declined to give than it is now. However, that cannot be done by the information sought and, of course, this is to placing bans on work. the discredit of the railway employees concerned. Mr Mclver: What about the underhand way in Mr Mclver: It makes a difference when your which your Government was going to do it? job is at stake. Mr RUSHTON: No progress will be made by Mr RUSHTON: This brings me to another the union saying to the City of Perth that it must matter, something which 1 know the member for have a freight transport service in the middle of Avon and his leader have encouraged, and the city. something in respect of which I would be pleased Mr Mclver: You were going to remove the line to hear them withdraw their support. The without obtaining information or views from railways union has decided that certain work shall anyone. not be carried out. This will work against the interests of the employees, because the end result Mr RUSHTON: That is not quite the case. It of such action is that contract people do the work. is a deplorable situation when passenger carriages At present there are proposals-which I think cannot be refurbished because of union bans. were included in the proposals drawn up by the Mr T. H. Jones: What can we do about that? member for Welshpool some years ago-that Mr RUSHION: I have had indications from there should be a single track narrow gauge line the member for Avon and his leader that they south of Perth. support such bans. [Tuesday, 24th April, 1979] 6676

Mr T. H. Jones: That is your job, not ours. nostalgic reasons. I have travelled more on the Mr RUSHTON: I do not mind getting on with suburban rail lines than members of the the job, but members opposite are trying to be Opposition have. obstructive. Mr T. H. Jones: Are you not going to speak * Mr T. H. Jones: Why are we different from about the shortage of oil? every other State in the Commonwealth and every Mr RUSHTON: As regards the energy other country in the world? situation, the buses in this corridor are more Mr RUSHTON: I would like to put to the efficient than the trains. Opposition a summary of a questionnaire, because Mr T. H-. Jones: What about future supplies? so far members opposite have not given us a case. That is what I am talking about. I am sure people interested in the Perth- Fremantle railway are conscious of what the Mr RUSHTON: The buses can operate a total Opposition should do, and they would certainly be service which trains cannot. looking to the Opposition for some comment. It is Mr T. H. Jones: What about electrification? hardly dictatorial to announce on the 16th Mr RUSH-TON: The member for Collie asked January what is proposed to be implemented on me about energy. Liquid petroleum gas will be the 2nd September; so that makes a farce of the available in greater amounts, I am confident. argument of members opposite. Mr T. H. Jones: What, oil? Mr Mclver: What about the statement you made that the railway would not be closed? Mr RUSHTON: I am speaking about gas. The Mr RUSHTON: Any Government worth its buses will run on gas. That is a projection for the future. The buses will be capable of running on salt must make decisions. It has an obligation to carry out research and to produce positive liquid petroleum gas. The taxis are now moving to proposals. That is what the Government has done. that fuel. Our resources of liquid petroleum gas It also has provided ample time for reactions, and are not as great as those in Victoria. I have been waiting for them. I could refer back Let me return to my summary of what the to the petition but I will not do so because it does Opposition needs to answer. What is the practical not present a case. It asks for a number of things, urban passenger transport policy of the but it does not make out a case. One would have Opposition? We have not heard it mentioned thought that amongst that supposed 100 000 tonight. We need to know what it is. people- Mr Mclver: We do not have to give you our Mr Skidmore: What do you mean "supposed"? policy. They are all there on the petition. Mr T. H. Jones: Talk about the congestion on Mr RUSH-TON: I will not challenge that, but our roadways at the turn of the century. What are it has been submitted to me that many names are you going to do about that? repeated. Mr RUSHTON: The Opposition has not given Mr Mclver: More are on the way. an answer to falling patronage. It has not given an Mr RUSHTON: Some people have phoned and answer to the falling population in the corridor. In told me they signed the petition each time they my previous portfolio, I did a considerable went to work. That is another problem, and I am amount of work in trying to ginger up and not worried about it. What I am worried about is increase population densities in that corridor. The the fact that a petition of this size, which I would people in the corridor show little interest in have expected to come forward, has been increased densities. presented and only about 4 per cent of the people The leader of the Friends of the Railways has signing it patronise the Fremantle-Perth railway. said that the answer to the problem is increased That tests the credibility of those signing the population densities. An increase may occur in the petition. years ahead, and as far as we are concerned that Mr Bertram: Give them a good service. would be very good. We are providing a Mr Mclver: Because a person does not utilise a reservation for a rapid transit system in the train, does not mean that he cannot sign a petition future. For the present, when one can save energy on the closure of the railway line. and funds to the tune of $3.6 million, that is a Mr RUSHTON: I can tell the member for real proposition. Avon that a very good friend of his and mine has [ wish to make a few more comments about the signed it. Friends of mine have signed the beliefs of our colleagues on the opposite side. The petition, but they have signed it mostly for member for Avon mentioned that one cannot use 668 668[ASS EM BLY) the transfer of passenger coaches to the Armadale streets, would pick up people where they were line- living. The people would not have to use their Mr Mclver: I said you cannot use that in your motorcars. Such buses would be far more fuel cost. You must ignore that in the cost. efficient than trains in that corridor. Mr RUJSHTON: We have used that in our Mr T. H. Jones: But you have let the trains run analysis. down. That is what we are saying. There are no modern units. Mr Mclver: It contradicts itself. Mr RUSHTON: There are no fewer passenger Mr RUSHTON: It is a diminishing amount, cars. because there is only so much life left in the rolling stock. It reduces the number of new Mr T. H-. Jones: Why is Brisbane going for carriages which have to be purchased. That is electrification? included in the capital expenditure. Mr RUSHTON: The member for Collie is Mr Mclver: I have seen the Figures, but they making points for me time and time again. I are not right. spoke to the Minister for Transport in Victoria. Somebody raised this point by interjection earlier. Mr RUSHTON: If the member for Avon In Victoria they started to introduce a rapid, would like to refute them, I am happy to have the electrified train based on an expected 60 per cent figures tested for him. I am waiting for that. increase in patronage. They have achieved a 30 Let us consider the question of operating costs. per cent decrease. The east started off as an Does not the sum of $3.6 million mean anything estimate of $80 million; it has now reached $300 to members of the Opposition? When people million; and the estimate is that upon completion consider fares and the charges of other it will have cost $351 million. The Minister for instrumentalities, they are interested in costs. I Transport said that if he had his way he would not be locked in to such a bad situation. a m interested in costs, and I believe that what we have put forward is a balanced economic package. There are questions that those on the other side Mr Mclver: Do you think when this line closes need to answer. What would they do about the people who are utilising the rail now will transport in the corridor from Fremantle to automatically go to buses? Karrinyup? They have not an answer, because Mr RUSHTON: I think a considerable number they have not applied themselves to the problem. will. What do they think about the situation in Servetus Street? They have not done anything Mr McIver. We will be the First State to about considering the problem. What will they do achieve that if they do. You will get only 25 per about freight through the City of Perth- cent. Mr Mclver: We do not have to do anything Mr RUSHTON: The member for Avon has led about it. We are the Opposition. me into another field. Trains cannot provide all of the services in this corridor. Trains are not Mr RUSHTON: The member for Avon has flexible. They perform special tasks. made my point. The Opposition says, "We have not got to do anything about it." That is why we Mr Mclver: Now the buses are running parallel are here tonight. to the railway. They have been doing so for years. Mr Mclver. I suggest you resign. We will soon Mr RUSHTON: A railway carrying a huge fix it up- number of people would be much more efficient, I would acknowledge. This is not the case in this Opposition members interjected. corridor. -Some people ask why we do not have a The SPEAKER: Order! The House will come transfer station. A transfer station will work only to order. when advantages accrue to the patrons. Members Mr RUSHTON: The Government has put should consider that corridor, and be fair about before the House and the public a comprehensive the geography of it. The only place where a policy relating to the railway and buses. It has transfer station could be built is at Claremont. It given the background leading up to a decision on is only the people living between Mosman and the Fremantle-Perth railway. The Government Claremont who would use that station. Passengers has been frank in summarising that material and will not come in from Nedlands, because they making it available to the public. would be going in the reverse direction. They I am delighted that the Opposition has moved would not travel from Floreat to Claremont. this amendment tonight because they find the I would suggest to the members of the situation wanting. The Opposition does not have a Opposition that buses, travelling around the policy. I think this is all I need to say. If the [Tuesday, 24th April, 19791'66 669 people who have listened to me tonight require both means most effectively. Essentially, a rail more information, I will be happy to send it to line should run along each of the corridors. We them. would allow for a railway line to run to the The Government has respect for the opinions of northern suburbs in what would be the north-west the people who have signed the petition. People corridor. There would be one long rail line in each who are very close to me have signed that corridor, and the bus services, instead of running petition. They have conveyed their thoughts to me parallel to the train services, as happens at that, in the main, they have a high regard for the present, would provide a link with the rail railways. services, The buses would travel through the areas of dense population and take the people to the The Premier has certainly shown his'interest in rapid transit rail line. The people would be the railways over the years. I have a very high transported into the central business district in regard for the railways and for railway men. I that fashion. have used the railways extensively. When the Minister spoke of closing the The people who signed that petition know that Fremantle line, and when he referred to the we indicated that we had certain intentions. The economics of it, he did not take into account one Government faced the responsiblity and put important factor; that is a factor that the forward a comprehensive policy. If somebody Government never takes into account on these thinks he can refute what we have put forward, occasions. That factor is the massive investment let him come forward to have his policy examined. in the State's roads. When people speak about bus Otherwise, the Government has no optionl but to transport versus rail transport, the railways are oppose the amendment because it does not lead always charged for the cost of the rails. However, anywhere. It is a combination of nothings. no-one ever takes into account the amount of The amendment is hypocritical when one has money spent on the roads on which the buses run. regard for what the Tonkin Government The Minister lives in the same general direction attempted to do in closing this railway. as I do. He would know that in the south-east MR PEARCE (Gosnells) [9.42 p.m.): One can corridor one of the problems causing traffic only be astounded at the speech by the Minister. holdups on the Albany Highway is the presence of It is a long time since any Minister has spoken for MTT buses. The same problem applies to any of 45 minutes on an amendment to the Address-in- the four-lane highways in peak traffic periods. Reply. However, if one were to take the substance The buses stop every 150 yards, blocking one of the Minister's speech, one could fit it into whole lane of the two-lane carriageway out of or something like 4.5 minutes, even if it were into the city. delivered at the pace that the member for Buses are massive ly expensive if one considers Cottesloe developed in his dictation to the Press, the cost of the roads themselves. They also create or his dictation for Hansard. problems in their effect on other road -users. That The Minister said absolutely nothing in defence demonstrates the first fallacy in the Minister's of the closure of the Fremantle line. At least, speech. nothing he said made any sense. He tried to The second fallacy is that the Minister believes suggest that it was the Opposition's place to that patronage levels will not change. All of the organise a transport policy for the State. I am Minister's castings are based on the assumption prepared to accept that challenge. that the same number of people would still use the Sir Charles Court: We are trying to find out transport system, no matter how much it is the substance of what you are saying. upgraded. MrT PEARCE: I am sure the Premier will give That, of course, is a fallacy. Certainly it is a me 30 seconds to come -to the point. I will outline fallacy if one applies it to the transport policies the attitude that the Opposition has towards a co- which we have, because we would put an ordinated transport policy. That is something emphasis on upgrading the service which would about which the Premier ought to be aware, as cause the level of patronage to rise and, therefore, the member for Avon has spoken on it several the trains being used closer to maximum capacity, times. Indeed, I have myself. so the rate per passenger per kilometre would fall, The Australian Labor Party stands for a co- and the density of use of the transport system ordinated urban transport policy which takes the would rise. That is the second fallacy involved in emphasis off road transport as much as possible. the Minister's speech. There should be a linking up of rail -and bus The third fallacy which no-one in the 'transport in a way that utilises the functions of Government or the department seems to have 670 670[ASSEMBLY] recognised is that, even with the three legs of the of them look older than the Premier-again only rail transport system at the moment, there is some just. However, it is not a very comfortable or degree of linkage. I should like to make this attractive situation for passengers to ind distinction: If the Perth-Fremantle line is closed, themselves in. There is no incentive for people to patronage on the Midland-Perth and Armadale- use the rail system. That is one of the reasons Perth lines will fall immediately. My basis for people do not do so. saying that is this: A number of passengers do not Let me run through some of the idiotic travel by train from the outlying areas to the questions which the Minister asked us. I have central city business district only. They continue explained already our passenger transport policy, on to Fremantle. If someone from Gosnells wants so I shall refer to the second question asked by the to travel to Mosman Park the only way to do so at Minister. He asked, "What is the answer to the moment is to catch two trains, because there falling patronage?" The answer is that we should is no direct passenger link between the towns in upgrade the service and provide it where the the suburbs in the south-east corridor and the people want it; that is, we should allow buses to towns in the suburbs in the south-west corridor. ferry people into rapid transit train terminals so Therefore, these people change trains at the Perth they can have a faster and more comfortable ride station and passenger trains to some degree are into the central business district. We should make timetabled so that it is possible for these link-ups the service attractive to the people when they are to be made. using it so they do not feel they are in a travelling By taking out an effective one-third of the rubbish tin on rattly, old wheels. That is how one passenger rail network, the possibility of people could describe the feeling when one travels on the changing trains will be eliminated. As a result, rail transport system at the moment. that sort of rail passenger will disappear and The answer to falling patronage is to upgradu patronage will fall on both of the other two legs. the system. That is the answer to falling The other matter which is of immense concern patronage in any area. If one is running a picture to people who use trains in the south-east theatre and the patronage is falling, one should corridor-that is; the Armadale-Perth line-is make it a more attractive place for people to visit this: If the rail system has had one great flaw in and one should show films the people want to see. the past it has been the failure of the Government The answer to falling patronage is always to give to upgrade it. This has been one of my constant the people what they want. The Minister put the themes in the time I have been a member of question to us as if it was a fundamentally Parliament. The system simply has not been difficult one to answer. He said, "Let members upgraded. If the system is to be reduced by a opposite ,,nswer that." We all saw the smart little third, the chances of more capital input into the sneer on his face. He said, "Let members opposite system will be reduced accordingly. If we had a Find the answer to this tricky question." What large rail transport system which was a linchpin could be a simpler answer? If the Minister and in a co-ordinated urban transport policy there his department cannot think of it, one can see the would be no chance of it disappearing; but if it is degree of analysis they have put into this whole cut back by a third, it becomes more insignificant matter. They must have given it very little in the overall transport system. What are the thought. chances of the rail transport system obtaining the The rest of the questions asked by the Minister necessary capital input in the south-east corridor, were even more stupid and foolish. The crux of if the Perth-Fremantle line is removed? What is the matter is quite simply that the Perth- the chance of obtaining the necessary capital Fremantle line is a crucial part of an overall input for the rail system in the future if one-third transport policy. The need for co-ordination is of it is taken away? I would think the chances are there and I believe some officers of the Transport rather minimal or indeed probably nil. Commission understand the need for co- Even under the present system the railcars ordination between the bus and rail services. I which run on the Perth-Armadale line-I use it have seen plans prepared for such co-ordination, quite frequently myself and I might say I pay my but they have not been put into effect and the fare; I do not flash my gold pass, because the reason for this is that the rapid transit rail system railways are so broke-are dreadful. They are does not have the capacity to cope with extra really grotty. Some have bogeys which were built passengers if they are fed into the rail system. It in 1894. There are railcars on the passenger is as simple as that. transport system that are older than the Premier. The failure of this Government, over the years They are not much older, I admit, but it has been in power, to provide the necessary nevertheless that is the truth of the matter. Some number of railcars has been what has stopped a (Tuesday, 24th April, 1979]17 671 co-ordinated transport policy from being put into railcars. We will give up the idea if he implements effect. It is not difficult to work out a co- it and provides the employment so desperately ordinated transport policy. I could draw the maps needed in this State and provides a better myself, at least in the areas with which I am transport system which is so desperately needed familiar. I am sure the Minister and his also. department have maps for such a co-ordinated Mr MacKinnon: Will you also find the money policy. Such maps would be in accord with the for it? transport policy of the Labor Party. However, these plans have not been put into effect and the Mr Skidmore interjected. reason for it is that the Government will not buy Mr MacKinnon: I am asking the member for the necessary railcars. I Gosnells. The Minister referred to what the Government Mr PEARCE: I am perfectly prepared to had done for the rail system. 'that is where most answer the question. The member for Murdoch of the waffle occurred, because this part of his knows the amount of money involved in putting speech took 45 minutes and as far as I can see into effect the recommendations of the south-cast from the notes I have, very little was said. The corridor report which is proving so embarrassing Minister talked about building up freight lines in to him in his electorate. Bridges are planned to be the country. He referred to upgrading country built across the river in that area. lines to carry mainly heavy freight, such as bulk Mr MacKinnon: It does not embarrass me. ore or wheat. When he said the Government had built up these lines, what he meant was it had Mr PEARCE: I am sure it embarrasses the taken away from rail almost every other type of honourable member more than he is prepared to freight except bulk freight. As a result, it was a admit. The point I am making is that massive stripping down of services, not a building up, in investment will be poured into building the roads almost every area. People who drive along Roe and bridges in that area, because the road system Street-young chaps like myself who do not know cannot cope with the vehicles using it now. Some what Roe Street used to be-would have seen the of the most destructive vehicles, and those which parcels office being demolished a year or two ago. create the most traffic snarls, which are using These people would now understand the way in those roads are buses. They are using the roads which the rail services have been downgraded. very inefficiently to the great detriment of private There has been a downgrading, not an upgrading cars. of the rail system. Mr MacKinnon: Did you read what the report I had to laugh when the Minister talked about said about the improvement of bus stations on the the maintenance of the Armadale-Perth line, railway lines to get people to use the trains? because I travel on that line quite frequently and Mr PEARCE: Where has the member for most of the buildings at the stations are almost Murdoch been while I have been speaking today falling down. Eighteen months ago I drew to the and during the last two years? That is a constant attention of Parliament the dangerous situation at theme I have been referring to. It is Labor Party Kingsley and Challis stations which led to strange policy. The point made in the south-east corridor orders being sent out to the drivers and guards. report- Passengers are almost being killed and nothing MrT MacKinnon: You are saying the report is has been done to alleviate the situation. The no good. Minister's parade of improvements made to the rail services was a poor and dismal display. I Mr PEARCE: I did not say that the report was believe that is the only way to summarise it; but no good. I did not say that at all. much needs to bcedone. Mr MacKinnon: Yes, you did. Railcars need to be bought. In fact railcars can Mr PEARCE: The member for Murdoch asked be manufactured in the Midland workshops by me where would the money come from- Government employees, at Government expense, Mr MacKinnon; I am still wai ting to hear. which would create employment in Western Australia to satisfy a need which is present here. Mr PEARCE: I have told the member already. That is part of the policy of the Labor Party in 1 said a great deal of money is being spent on relation to transport. We would build railcars in upgrading the transport system in the south-east the Midland workshops. The Minister seems to be corridor. unaware of that Labor Party policy and yet we Mr MacKinnon: You do not think there should are prepared to allow him to steal it between now be'any money spent in the south-east corridor on and the elections so that he may start building roads? 672 672(ASSEM BLY]

Mr PEARCE: The member far Murdoch is that is to say, there are no buses feeding asking the question and I am giving him the passengers into the stations where they can answer. He might have the courtesy to listen to connect with a rapid transit system. the answer and then ask his next question. In Gosnells the railway line does not run Mr MacKinnon: Can I repeat that to you next through the centre of the town. It runs through time I am speaking? one side of it, and all the growth and development Mr PEARCE: The honourable member may do is on one side also. Some people in Ciosnells can so; but he never answers my questions. He never be two or three miles from the station. The even attempts to answer my questions. problem of getting people to use the train service Mr MacKinnon: I will repeat that back to you. is simply one of getting them from their homes to the stations. We need small feeder buses. We Mr PEARCE: He will not answer them mainly need buses which seat 20 people, to convey the because he cannot. people into the station in order to catch the train. Mr MacKinnon: Ha, ha! If this were the situation, many more people in Mr PEARCE: The amount of investment to be Gosnells would use the rail transport services. made in the transport system as laid down in the They have told me that. south-east corridor report is deficient to the extent I feel quite certain the same situation applies to that the bulk of that investment is to be spent on the Fremantle leg of the rail system. We need a building roads and bridges at massive cost. If Government which is creative enough to try these some of that money which is there, and which the sorts of measures. We do not need giant buses to Government will have to find if it is to implement convey large numbers of people and which are in the provisions in the report, was put into fact empty most of the time., If we had small upgrading the rail system in the way I am feeder buses which travelled in small areas, people suggesting there would be little need far a parallel could get to the station and catch the train bus service to run along Albany Highway. As a quickly and easily into the city, and they would do result, Albany Highway would be freed of it. congestion to some extent and fewer roads would Mr MacKinnon: What should come first; the need to be built. That is where the money will come from. It is exactly the same source. It would approval of the rail system or the approval of the road system come from the Government. It would use the in the south-east corridor? money which has been allocated for the building Mr PEARCE: They would come of roads and bridges in the south-east coriridor simultaneously. area. I am talking about that area, because it is Mr MacKinnon: Simultaneously? the area the member for Murdoch and I Mr PEARCE: Simultaneously; that is, at the understand best at the present time; but the same same time. The member's question was: where situation applies in other areas. would the money come from? I sam telling him a Mr MacKinnon: What would happen to your massive amount of money has been allocated- policy if you spent all the money on railways and Mr MacKinnon: You could not possibly afford the people did not use them and you still had the to do it at the same time. congestion which you are putting up with at the moment? Mr PEARCE: I give up! I will forget about the Member for Murdoch. If $100 million is to be Mr PEARCE: It is our thesis that, given an spent on roads in the south-east corridor, $10 upgraded service, more people would want to use million could be spent on the rail system and, at it. If the member for Murdoch tries to drive from the same time, $90 million could be spent on the Armadale to Perth he will find it takes around 40 road system. It could be done simultaneously and minutes or up to an hour in peak times . If he tries we would obtain a much more co-ordinated result catching a bus he will find it takes an hour in non- and a much better transport system in the end. peak periods. If he travels on the tmain it will take 45 minutes only, and it is safer. That is all work done in the south-east corridor. Why not in the Fremiantle corridor? That is my Mr MacKinnon: That is now? answer to the claim by the Minister that the Mr PEARCE: That is at the present time. Labor Party does not have a policy. That was Mr MacKinnon: Why do not people catch the arrant nonsense and simply showed that the train now? Minister has not listened to the speeches we have Mr PEARCE: People do not use the train made in this place during the last two years. because, for the most part, the co-ordinated Mr T. H. Jones: We will never satisfy the aspects of the transport system are not present; Minister. [Tuesday. 24th April, 19791 6737

Mr PEARCE: I am not concerned with provided for the closure of a certain line. The satisfying the Minister. His suggestion was that salient section in the Act appears at page 3. The we did not have a policy; the policy of the Minister has quite deliberately and maliciously Minister is to turn things off. If the number of omitted to read this section, so I intend to read it passengers on the Fremantle line drops the to the House. Section 5(2) reads-- Government wants to stop the trains from Before discontinuance in accordance with running; to chop off the service will not solve the section 3 of the scheduled railway and before problem. If the number of passengers on the commencement of construction of any part of Armadale line drops that will go too, and if the the Perth Regional Railway referred to in number of passengers on the Midland line falls, subsection (1) of this section, the Minister certainly that will go too! That is the Minister's shall obtain the approval of Parliament to a so-called positive policy. The people will be left to report on the results of the engineering and battle their way through on the roads. What sort economic studies applicable to that prt ... of a positive or co-ordinated policy is that? That is a negative policy. Thai means very clearly that before anything can be done under the terms of the Act the matter has I know the Government is look *ing at a bank to be returned to Parliament for the express balance policy, which is a false argument. It is all approval of Parliament. That is in spite of the right to use the railways, but once they start to Minister saying that the Labor Party intended to run at a loss, out they go. Of course, roads do not close the railways. Why is the Minister not operate at a loss because no-one expects a truthful with regard to these matters? He financial return from roads. That is not a loss. conveniently forgets all that has occurred. If the Thousands of millions of dollars are spent on Minister reads fully the debates which took place bitumen and blue metal. That is the Minister's in the Legislative Council he will find that even at answer. that stage, because of the requirement of the 1 reject the proposition that the Minister has report, the whole thing was again placed in the adequately reasoned in favour of the closure of melting pot with regard to what would be done the Perth-F'remantle line. I particularly reject the ultimately as a result of further investigation. suggestion that the Labor Party does not have an Because of that the present Minister would effective policy for the co-ordination of transport know--or should know-that Wilbur Smith & within ihe Perth urban region. Associates had to look at the whole question and In the 24 minutes I have been speaking I have reappraise it on a cost basis. put forward a better proposition than the Minister Due regard had to be paid to the fact that the did white waffling on for 45 minutes, and I have Commonwealth had shown some interest in urban provided information to demonstrate the transport throughout Australia, and was prepared practicalities of our policy. to meet the cost of research. Indeed, it was very MR JAMIESON (Welshpool) [10.02 p.mn.I: clear in the commission that the commissioners TI-e Minister's thoughts on our transport system were to bring down a report on the railway system and particularly the railway system might have to the Perth central area. That included the three been well founded 100 years ago when the first spur lines: one from Fremantle, one from line was commissioned in this State, but that Armadale, and one from Midland. There is no thinking is far from modern. The Minister has doubt about that. disregarded the future, and he is prepared to give Before that policy was able to be implemented. away all opportunities for an optimum system of the sad story was that the Government changed. transport for the sake of convincing himself that Liberal Governments have always been interested what his Government has said, or what his in, busways. Why, I do not know. Rusways have advisers have told him, is the best way to get over been short-term failing propositions wherever they the immediate Financial problem. If we did that have been installed throughout the world. Sure, with everything in the State we would not have they are cheap; but they are also nasty. If one the water pipeline to Kalgoorlie, and we would wants something cheaper, one could wipe out the not have a number of Oither projects. Many of the commuter system altogether. I suppose people railways constructed in the early days to service would then struggle on for a time hut sooner or the goldfields and other areas were economic later they would demand the return of a better mnonst rosi ties. Nevertheless, they served their form Of transport. purpose as the history of this State will show. Many aspects have to be looked at. The 11 is wrong for the Minister to keep on saying position has changed even since 1972. On every the Tonkin Government passed the Act which occasion that a report with regard to the 674 674ASSEMBLY] metropolitan transport system has been made to I spent hours looking at the transport system in either a Labor or a Liberal Government, it has Toronto, and in Washington, and in many small been to the effect that there would have to be a cities. It has been said that Perth is too small to return to some form of rail system within 20 or 30 go for this type of system. Antwerp, with a years. Time is ticking away. Hair the time population half that of Perth, has such a system in estimate by Nielsen, for the return to a rail operation. That city does not have trains; it still system, has just about expired. The cost of a has trains, and they have been put underground. busway to provide some temporary alleviation of That system is working effectively. Certainly it the problem was then estimated, [ think, at some will not make a profit and that has not been $432 million. The cost would be a lot greater than suggested, but the success of that system is that by now, and it would still not be finished another echelon of transportation at a different even if it had been started at that time. So, level, Unfortunately Perth is not like Adelaide or obviously, one has to look to what is best for the Melbourne; we do not have wide streets, and the City of Perth in the ultimate. CBD will continue to grow. The best system will be a costly project; nobody I do not share the views of the member for denies that. When we as a Committee conferred Morley-[ would like to share them-that one with Nielsen, even he agreed that the ideal was a can limit the size of Perth in the ultimate. I system of electrified transport, preferably to be shudder at the thought of anybody starting to tell undergrounded in the city where it would provide people who will be the ones to shift out of Perth. the ultimate service.. Of course, that would If anything would bring down a Government, it involve, perhaps, $1 000 million. is a decision like that. There would be Prices escalate so quickly now I am never too considerable reaction to any instruction that sure when making estimates. However, basing certain families should not live in Perth and costs on the fact that we were talking in 1972 others should. Nevertheless, if we are to grow as a figures of some $550 million, I suppose we would city, as we are and must, we should look to the now be looking at a far costlier project. It would future form of transportation. be a big slug. The present Government has not given a lead. As my colleague, the member for Collie, has It says the Opposition should put up a pointed out, the Premier has a wasteful atiitude proposition. I know how much notice the towards local facilities. I refer to coal. The Government ever takes of the Opposition's Premier turned to oil as a cheap and nasty answer propositions on anything, let alone on a to a situation which had developed, and which transportation system. The Government would could last for a limited time only. If the Premier run back to its advisers, who are fully committed has any business brainh at all he must have realised to bus transport in this State. the situation. No free lunches are offered by Knox and his cohorts time and time again tried British Petroleum without a cause, so they are no to sell me on the bus system, but it was only after different from anybody else! insistence that they carry on to get the optimum Eventually the bill will be paid by the taxpayers form of transportation that had been suggested by of this State to the tune of $90 million because of the overseas experts that we got Knox onto a line a mistake which the now Premier made when he of action to which he would give his approval. I advised the Government to go extensively into oil- would say that so long as John Knox stays fired power generation. there-and he is a very active and capable worker That is all history, but if we are talking about within his department-he will always lean to money-and the lack of money-let us throw it busways. He will never lean any other way. away on something that will be of use to the Nielsen did more than just have a look at the people of this State in the future. Surely an proposition. He was commissioned to find the efficient. transport system is desirable. cheapest way out of it. He told us very clearly The Minister said that the system could not be when we discussed the matter with him that he fed at the Fremantle end. The people residing had made the suggestions with due regard for the between Claremont and North Fremantle, and commission he had. Despite that commission the sea and the rifle range at Swanbourne, should being very limited, he made certain be confined to a rail system by the provision of recommendations as to how the alternative quick turn-around buses. A circuit could feed into systems could be financed, and we will not solve the railway system and get people into the city the transportion problems of the central city and very quickly. That is done in other places. the suburbs until a Government is game enough [Tuesday, 24th April, 19791 6757 to Lake the lead given by Nielsen and finance a system is as it is today. Transport must be system of the type he proposed. organised, planned, and properly co-ordinated. I suggest the Minister spend some time reading The Minister said the Opposition has no that report and boning up on just what Nielsen proposition for the future. We would probably did propose. For those who have not bothered to have had trouble had it not been for the fact that read the Nielsen report, I indicate that he I was a bit concerned about the future when we suggested something similar to the Metropolitan were first moving to take land for the Mitchell Water Board's drainage tax on land. A form of Freeway and insisting on ample land being made tax would be applied to land in an area which available for a tracked vehicle system in the supplied passengers within a given distance of a future. However, we do not have those troubles passenger route; then, and then only, would the because we have that option available, and as organisation running the metropolitan transport soon as possible we should establish an adjunct to system be capable of knowing how its finances the present railway system in that northern spur, were going each year. with appropriate feeder facilities, as in the BART That does not mean we should make transport system. Some of the parking areas north of San completely free and rely on a tax to pay for it. Francisco are colossal, and such areas would be That does not work. It was tried in Rome and needed for people driving a couple of kilometres chaos resulted because people were using to commuter transportation in the northern areas transport to ride from one stop to the next. There of Perth. Unless action of this kind is taken in the was overcrowding and the situation became quite very near future, we will miss out and our city will hopeless. A nominal fee must always be charged. be cluttered up. Notwithstanding that, if people find they are What of the future? If we rely on oil we might paying for a system and then running their own have no form of transportation. We are told all opposition, they -will very soon come around to sorts of stories about the future of oil and how it using the transport System. will taper off and no longer be available. With an The transport system must be attractive and electrified rail system we would keep the people new. It must have all the features which will moving in the metropolitan area. They might have attract passengers. Nevertheless, people will soon to walk a bit further but they would keep moving. wake up when the hip pocket nerve starts to ache. It would keep the city alive. No doubt by then, They will say, "What am I doing taking my car with advanced technology, the short-haul buses into the city every day at an extra cost of $2 when would be powered by electricity. for a nominal charge I can travel on public Presumably, while the driver waited for transport which gets me there dry and gets me passengers at the terminal, he would be able to back to my park-and-ride, kiss-and-ride, or walk- plug in and recharge so that he had an ample and-ride home position?" supply of energy to get back into the electrically- The experimentation by the railways and others run transport system. Certainly that is a futuristic has proved that we can have a co-ordinated feeder idea, but it is the sort of thing we should look at. bus service to the railway, as for instance in To me Perth is a City for the future. We know Midland. This should be repeated. It has proved what has happened in the past. We know how to be most successful. The next one should be much the Fremantle rail service has cost to run, established in the Cottesloe area. We should- not although when we look at some of the figures have parallel transport from Fremantle to Perth given, they could perhaps be read in another way. by way of busts. We should have short, quick Earlier a member referred to the passenger- feeder services to the trains with people buying kilometre rate of the line. The latest report on the only one ticket that does not have to be refranked. line patronage was prepared in 1977 when a It can be worked out quite easily. We would realistic count was taken each day. This showed a probably need only Cottesloe and Claremont passenger rate of 519 passengers per kilomnetre of stations, with buses feeding in a maximum line on the Fremantle-Perth service. Yet on the number of passengers. Armadale service-a supposedly more viable With transport running its own opposition it service-the figure was 360 passengers per will always go broke; it cannot possibly win, If kilometre of line. It would not do to close that line one wants to race horses one must race them down, because it goes out the Minister's way, and against somebody else's horses; otherwise one of course, the member for Gosnells lives out that finds oneself paying all the chaff bills and getting way also. So there are two reasons that the line none of the prizes. That is why our transport should not be closed down immediately! 676 676[ASSEMBLY]

The main reason, probably, is that both to the residents. It is very difficult to equate the electorates are reasonably marginal-the vote cost of something like this with the service it might go either way. However, with regard to a provides. railway service to Fremantle, an area where The regular commuters are able to get very "Noddy" comes from, the member for Cottesle near to their place of work in the city without goes on television and says, very bravely. "Oh, having to contend with surface problems and you can get anybody to sign a petition." Maybe it other forms of transport. This is what we should is possible to get anyone to sign certain petitions, aim for. but this does not apply in every case. I have tried to get signatures on petitions, and not everyone In the Wilbur Smith report for Perth, the will sign. Let us say, for example, that one went optimum proposal was a number of stations one kilometre apart in a loop. In this ideal no person into the electorate represented by the member for would have to walk Swan and asked for signatures on a peti.tion to more than 500 metres to an abolish certain features of the Workers' entrance to a station. Such innovations would Compensation Act. One would be asking for attract people to use such a service, and certainly trouble if one did that. citizens would be prepared to pay for it. The Government would be entitled to say, "This One could always ask people in Cottesloe and service has been provided for your benefit, and Nedlands to sign such a petitionbu I doubt that you will be penalised if you bring your car into they would. I am sure that mnany of the the city." Even in a congested city such as constituents of the member for Swan would be Singapore, which has bus services only-certainly upset if such a petition were placed in front of no decent commuter transport-cars with fewer them. The petition we are referring to is the than four people in them are banned from the city largest petition ever presented to this Parliament. during peak periods. We could quite easily follow Certainly some of the signatures may be such an idea in Perth. Policing this law does not duplicated-it would be hard to stop a person who create any difficulty. Two policemen, working wished to sign more than once. Perhaps there are together, simply note the number of an offending some idiots who signed the petition every day and vehicle, and the owner then receives a demand for then rang the Minister to say they had done this. $20 or $50 by way of a fine. The car is not pulled I suppose there are some people like this in the up, so the traffic flow is not impeded. Liberal Party; we have some in the Labor Party. We all have to put up with people of this type. To It would mean a change of life style for the cover such contingencies, we could say that people of Perth, but they may have to cop that if we run out of oil or the price of fuel trebles or 10000 signatures may be invalid, but that still leaves a great many signatures on the petition. quadruples. If fuel must be manufactured from methanol or ethanol or some other grown type of If so many people say they want to retain the substance, the price could well be four times what line, then they must also be saying, "if the it is now. Then most certainly it would be Government inds an alternative, we are prepared attractive to use some other form of transport; but to pay for it." We cannot have one without the if because of the short sightedness of the Minister other. I am sure that the majority of the people no other form is available, we will be in trouble. who signed the petition realise their The Minister, who has no policy himself, merely responsibility-they will have to meet the attempted to chide the Opposition because he said commitments involved in providing an alternative it has no policy; but the Opposition has clearly transport system. stated its support for electrification and retention Let us again look at the optimum system-i4n of the Perth system. That is a must as a first my opinion we must aim for the optimum. If we stage. do not do that now or next year, we will do it in Undergrounding of the railway is desirable, but 100 years' time, and goodness knows how much it is in the more distant future. There are no we will pay for it then. We should consider the reasons that this should not be done apart from, history Of Cities With the geographical limitations of course, financial reasons. I suggest to the of Perth, and which have grown at a similar rate. Minister that he should consider ways of Way back in about 1926, Melbourne financing such a move. It could not be financed considered an underground loop system for that by orthodox methods. The Federal Government city. The present Victorian Cabinet is very sad was starting to provide finance for such things. that the loop was not built then because it The Whitlam Government, for all its faults which certainly would have been a lot cheaper. Although members of the Liberal Party always highlight, the present development of a loop cost a great did provide some money; and Liberal deal of money, it will provide a wonderful service Governments did not object to taking advantage jTuesday, 24th April. 1979]17 677 of the money that was available. I never heard of busway system in any shape or form. The the H-amer Government refusing to accept advantage of a commuter system on rail is financial assistance or design assistance. undoubted. Such a system cannot be used for Mr Rushton: They received design help, but other things. they have not got the money. Pressure cannot be placed on a Government to Mr JAMIESON: Well, the Whitlamn allow a rail commuter system to be used for other Government sort of ran out of time; probably it purposes; such a system must be retained for the would have run out of money, too, because it was purpose for which it was constructed, and it can spending it rather freely. However, by the same be improved and developed on that basis. token, the Whitlamn Government was looking to Having said that, we must consider the future. the future of the metropolitan areas in an This is what we were doing at the time when endeavour to prevent them from clogging up. Was specific legislation was passed by this Parliament, not that desirable? to which I referred earlier. We were considering Mr Deputy Speaker, I am sure you would not and reconsidering the matter, and every time we want the roads of Scarborough or Karrinyup to looked further the railway line kept coming back. We continued to look at the present Fremantle become clogged. I am sure you would like to see traffic flowing freely. If people are banned from spur and the problems of' Subiaco and Claremont. moving around in their cars, I am sure you would These are not small problems to overcome at like to see an alternative method of transport. various times of the year. You may say that probably by that time people We considered whether we should have been will be able to levitate; maybe they will. Sir David evolving a system which would complicate more Brand and I clashed in this House on one occasion than is presently the case the developed habits of when he said the automobile would always be people in respect of using the train service to with us. I told him that was a short-sighted view attend the Speedway, the Royal Show, or any of because the automobile was not with us 70 years the many functions held in the Claremont ago and no-one could guarantee it would be with Showgrounds from time to time, and also in us 70 years in the future. On that occasion Sir respect of using that service to go to Subiaco Oval David was justifying the extension of freeways. At for football finals. that stage to prevent roads becoming clogged it I do not know how all the passengers will be was necessary to provide a number of freeways. I handled when the big football carnival gets under am not against freeways, but we must judge the way. Just consider the complicated road system in future now on the advice of the experts that the the Subiaco area at present. Extensive known fuel resources of the type to powsr the resumptions would be needed to widen roads in transport system for which the Minister is opting. order to get the thousands of football spectators are limited. away from the area inside of one hour; and that Let us reconsider the situation. No other must be done because the people cannot be left country in the world which has two large cities there for two or three hours. If people are left at only 15 or 17 kilometres apart connected by a the football oval they will wreck the place or railway, would consider closing down the rail cause problems which will be harder to overcome system. No other country 'would consider doing than the problem of transport. that; only Western Australia would do it under a So it'appears to me all along the line that while Liberal Government. This Government has no the Minister is prepared to get up and use a regard for the rail system; it is not interested in double-barrelled shotgun to shoot down members the matter. It thinks we will get by. I do not know and to say no-one has a policy, in fact he is the whether Servetus Street will have as much to do one without a policy. I do not think he has ever with the situation as the member for Avon bothered to look at the systems elsewhere in the suggests, but no doubt it does have some effect on world. the matter. Probably it would do the Premier good to send One must look to see whether the Government someone overseas to see what other cities of a size is interested at all in a commuter system, or comparable with Perth are attempting. I do not Whether it just wants to opt out of the situation in recall that the previous Ministers for Transport of the best way it can. Nobody who has seen the this Government have done any research on this mess in Los Angeles, which has no commuter matter. To me it was only a sort of side job which system other than some form of busways which I inherited because I was the chairman of the always clog up at the slightest bad weather or if Cabinet PERTh subcommittee as a result of my something goes wrong, would ever opt for a association with roads. Nevertheless, I spent 678 678[ASSEM BLY) many hours walking around systems in other Singapore and another at Athens and had cities to see how they were constructed. I saw how investigated the railway systems of other systems were constructed under Washington, European countries. That is why the company was Brussels, and many other cities in the world. I did selected, not because it was expert in the matter that in an endeavour to ascertain what could be of busways. We had our own experts on busways, constructed in, around, and under Perth. including a one-time Minister for Transport, the I had in my mind the conception that an present Minister for Labour and Industry. He was underground railway would not be possible in a busway expert, too, principally because he never Perth because of the dampness of our terrain. really figured out what trains were all about. That conception was completely wiped out when I The Premier claims that when he was Minister saw the engineering skills being used in a dozen for Railways, they were reconstructed and and one places which have a far greater problem renovated, but all this is old hat to those of us who than we have. have been here for some time. The Standard gauge line would never have got off the ground Without patting myself on the back-I do not had it not been for OH P's need to freight its ore like doing that because as I have not got double- from Koolyanobbing to the coast. The existing jointed elbows like the Premier it hurts me system was not able to cope with the heavy terribly-I did take a specific interest in this field. tonnages and, as BHP had considerable influence Whilst members might be able to point to certain in high places-and once the standard gauge line features of the Perth Regional Railway Act and was through to Koolyanobbirig, it was not very far say, "That was the policy", in fact that is not so to Kalgoorlie-the line was rerouted in that because at that stage the policy was elementary direction so that it would Serve Koolyanobbing and had not been finally determined. The and the heavy tonnages of iron ore produced in Parliament was not prepared to go ahead with that region. The line handled the freight quite any policy until a further report had been effectively; I do not growl about that. However, received. those are the facts which influenced the decision Fortunately, the Cornmonwealth Government at the time. was still acting a little like Father Christmas at Nevertheless, the then Minister for Transport that time and came up with the bulk of the money was prepared to allow a very sloppy job to be to finance the Wilbur Smith & Associates report. carried out. The engine drivers used to tell However, that went wrong, too. The company was me-and no doubt the member for Avon would commissioned to prepare a report on the railways, bear this out-that the embankments, which were only, not on busways. However, because the constructed out of the rubbish that was locally Commonwealth was providing the bulk of the available, were so badly made that as soon as the finance for the report, it was agreed the company rains came they all weathered away and created should update some previous figures relating to all sorts of problems and in fact, many had to be busways for the Commonwealth. replaced. But what did we see when the report finally If the Minister of the day had held out for a came down? We did not get a report on railways; better class of railway system the Government we got a report on busways. I do not know what would not be faced with the replacement job happened after I let go of the reins, having presently facing the railways. This is another of commissioned the Wilbur Smith report. However, the Minister's follies. I do not know how many I suspect that Mr Knox and others associated millions of dollars it has cost to re-establish the with the line returned to their favourite theme of railways to this date, but the blame must be laid busways and, being senior people with the Firmly on that Minister. As I have said before by Government, no doubt influenced Wilbur Smi th interjection, if he were working in the private & Associates to bring down a report enterprise system he lauds so much, he would recommending the scrapping of the railway line in have been sacked years ago because of his favour of a busway. The company was not even inefficiency in that he is unable to come up with commissioned to investigate that aspect of the correct recommendations and decisions when transport. In fact, had I been Minister I would they are required. No private enterprise could have refused to pay the bill because the report afford that. contained only part of what the company was I accept that no private enterprise could afford asked to investigate the type of railway and commuter system I have Nevertheless, in the part which dealt with recommended should service Perth's transport railways, the company was quite efficient. requirements. However, we must go for a good Previously, it had conducted a survey at systemn; we must not accept a piecemeal proposal. [Tuesday, 24th April, 19791 6797

We must approach this matter on the basis of and from what I have read and from what the what our future requirements will be. If a spur Minister has tried to point out, I cannot accept needs to go under the river and down towards the decision. Kwinana, then it must be Constructed. There is I find the decision to close the line to be a plenty of room between the freeway and the river bureaucratic one. The Government has simply to construct the sort of system I have in mind, and taken this up on a bureaucrat's say-so, as I will to run a spur down to Kwinana and Rockingham, prove in a few moments when discussing another if necessary. However, this land must be reserved aspect of this matter. The Government has shown now. We cannot go into a system of busways in no feeling or conscious respect for the desires of this generation and then, in the next generation, the people. have the Government trying to resume people's houses, industry and commercial enterprises for Some have the audacity to say that people who the purpose of putting in a railway line. argue for the retention of the line are talking out of emotion. I like to play with trains, and I am Mr Deputy Speaker, I think I have indicated sure you do too, Mr Deputy Speaker. But that is quite clearly that I support the amendment moved not the point; the point is that we must have an by the member for Avon, particularly in respect alternative transport system, especially now that of our suburban transport system. I do not think oil and its associated products are becoming more the Government has done enough. I have always and more scarce and expensive. accused it of not having a complete policy. Its proposal to scrap the Perth-Fremantle line is a If the Government moves to busways, we will piecemeal thing. It does not mean a thing that the become totally dependent on oil for our transport Government is dragging a few railcars from the needs. It is quite obvious to any fool that trouble Fremantle line to supplement the Armadale line. in the Middle East could flare up at any second We must have a transport policy for the future. If and the supply of- oil to the western world will be this Government is not prepared to come up with cut off and we will be left with very little fuel for such a policy, the people of this State should say, our transport requirements. "it is time they shifted from the Treasury Liquid petroleum gas is a difficult questiVon. benches, and let somebody else do the job." I Even if sufficient reserves are discovered, most of support the amendment. the production will go overseas. There will not be DR DADOIJR (Subiaco) [10.47 p.m.]: Mr much left for us to be able to use it on buses and Deputy Speaker, I find myself in an unhappy other forms of transport. I doubt very much position. A decision has been made without any whether it will be used. I am sure that man's opportunity for me to discuss the matter, which ingenuity may discover other means of fuelling leaves me with no option but to support the our transport system. Basically, we should be amendment moved by the member for Avon. 1 looking at electrification as the answer to our support the amendment on two counts: Firstly, I problems. implicitly believe in a railway system for this city The answer is given that there is no money to of ours. In the past, there has been no real keep the railway running. I know where there is a planning of our roads; they are quite narrow and lot of money, and I know where a lot of money is inefficient. We have the river providing another being wasted. That is another subject. It is a obstruction, and crooked roads meandering up deplorable subject. There was an article in The from Fremantle to Perth. West Australian of Good Friday, the 13th April, Secondly, it may surprise members to learn that which indicated how many hospital beds we have, as many as 80 per cent of the people living in my and how many more are being provided. Not one electorate are wholly and solely behind the of those extra beds is needed. As a matter of fact, retention of the Perth-Fremantle railway line. The we could probably get along with half of what we Government says, "Then why do they not use the have at the moment. We spend $38 million or $39 railways?" They do not patronise the railways million a year on the building of these because they are so damned unattractive; the unnecessary monuments. Surely that money could Government has permitted the railway system to be used to sink the railway and electrify it. run down. In this way, we could provide work for the I have tried to have my say in opposition to the unemployed. We could bring people out of the Government's decision to close the line, but areas where they are supposedly working but unfortunately I have been unsuccessful. I have doing ,absolutely nothing except fulfilling written letters to three Ministers and to the Parkinson's law. We could bring those people out Premier asking for a party decision, not a Cabinet and put them to work. Surely that is what we decision. However, it became a Cabinet decision should be doing in this fair State of ours. 680 680[ASSEMBLY]

I wrote to the Subiaco City Council last March know that problems would be experienced at that requesting that it give me some idea of its feelings point. The buses would then return along the about the proposed removal of the Fremantle- same route. Perth railway. I received a letter from the town This reconstruction work was to be completed clerk who asked me to attend a meeting that had by September this year. The cost of the road was been arranged by the City of Subiaco at the to be $900 000. Whether local authorities want to request of the Minister for Local Government. be involved or not, they have to participate in this That meeting was attended by the mayor, the scheme. It is ludicrous that the local authorities councillors, the town clerk, the people from the will have to pay for something they do not want. Town Planning Department, and the people from the Main Roads Department. Unfortunately Mr I ask how in God's name could one build a road Shea of the MTT was not present. I do not know as long as that, on undulating land and including whether he was invited. a bridge, for $900 000? The sum of $900 000 would not pay for the bitumen, let alone the cost I was an observer at that meeting where there of the bulldozers and other equipment. The cost was a discussion on the alternatives proposed of acquisition of the land was not considered. following the closure of the line. I am surprised That is a farcical figure. that the road is to start somewhere in the Claremont-Cotteslee area. I could not determine Let us consider the position of Modern School. from the map exactly where that point is. The All I can say is that the Old Modernians had road would be on the railway verge north of the better band together to save their school, or this line until it reached the Ashton Street crossing at will be the end of it. In addition, the removal of Claremont. For those who do not know that the line between Perth and Fremantle will remove crossing, that is where the showgrounds are an essential loop in what I believe to be the whole situated. At that point, there is a spur line where metropolitan line. This will be the end of the it is proposed the buses would go to pick up the metropolitan line. If there was any line which show crowds. Then the buses would travel across should have been removed, that would be the the Ashton Street crossing-how I do not know, Armadale line. However. I notice that the because there is hardly room for one bus, let alone Minister lives out that way or has his electorate two or three. The buses would then proceed out that way. I think he lives in Nedlands. towards Perth along the railway verge at Mr Pearce: He never catches the train. I catch Karrakatta. At Karrakatta there are four it, and I have never seen the Minister on it yet. stonemasons. Three of the stonemasons have Dr DADOUR: The Premier made some leases until 1986, and the fourth has a lease until comments in his Press release on the 16th 1985. The Government will have to buy those January. He states that the proposed busway will leases out, because there is no allowance in the relieve a great deal of the congestion on Stirling leases for their removal. Highway. I am in Subiaco, and all of the The buses would then proceed along the verge problems from Nedlands will be pushed into of the railway on the south side until the Subiaco Subiaco, without a by-your-word or a by-your- station is reached. This is where the crunch is leave. Surely this is unrealistic. experienced. At that point, the buses would shoot I wanted to discover what was going to happen. into Roberts Road. Roberts Road runs on the I am a funny person, Mr Speaker. I was elected to south side of the Subiaco Football Club. There is this Parliament, and I was honoured and humbled no room there to swing a cat. Roberts Road then to be elected. I realise that the people have put passes the home of the present Minister for their trust in me. Health and arrives at the bottleneck with the Modern School on the northern side and the There is no way that I could be expedient. It is side. just not in me to be expedient. I may do a bit of Princess Margaret Hospital on the southern twisting and turning, but I cannot be expedient. I At the Princess Margaret Hospital there is a would like to be able to walk out of the door and $20 million building programme, with a servi ce go for a walk without a care in the world, but that block being built on Roberts Road. One can is not in me. When I am told that the back- imagine the vibrations from the semi-trailer type benchers on this side of the House are not of buses-and I mean semi-trailers. They will be members of the Government but supporters of the heavy, and they will vibrate. They will travel Government, it leaves me dead. That is not the along Roberts Road at the rate of one every five basis on which I was sent here by my electorate. minutes during the peak hours, to and from Perth. My electorate gave me no power to compromise The buses will then proceed down Wellington my vote. My vote must be used by me in the Street to the Perth station. I am told by those who interests of my electorate. I am not talking [Tuesday, 24th April, 1979]61 68t through the nose about this. This is a hard course Servetus Street would have to carry the main to follow, I can assure members. It would be easy traffic for the northern corridor. I do not think for me to acquiesce in what the Government there is any doubt that that will be the case. wishes to do and duck for cover when the time What will be the situation with respect to comes; but that is not my way. crossings over the proposed busway, when the Recently I had to face an inquisition because of present rail lines are bituminised over? I wonder such an attitude. I do not wish to bore members what the future will be for roads like Selby Street with the details of that because the subject has and other roads towards the west. How will been dealt with before. However, I say that when people get from the north to the south? They will I condemn the decision to close the railway line, I filter through Subiaco and Shenton Park. I might condemn it as unrealistic in every possible way. add that certain residents in the Karrakatta area I look to the future. I want to leave to my will not be worried should this occur as they will children, and to their children, and to their certainly not hear the noise! However, the traffic children, something for the future. I want to leave running through Shentoi Park has always been a them a fast, up-to-date railway system. I know problem. such a system costs money. However, at the same time we would be creating work for many people. I look at the railways as an alternative We could utilise the money we are spending transport system for the simple reason that buses where it should not be spent. I will enumerate are more popular at this moment. Buses are more those areas when I speak on the main Address-in. flexible; they do not have to run on fixed lines. Reply debate. We could use such money by They can travel through the suburbs and on to the updating the railway and building spur lines. city, whereas trains have to follow fixed routes. We would be much richer if our forefathers had No money has been spent on rolling stock over built a railway line to Darwin along the coast. recent years, but money has been spent on buses. How much better off would we have been? This is The railways have been permitted to run down. not a pipedream. The Perth-Fremantle section of line being taken At the moment we have congestion occurring out will mean the end of the metropolitan railway on Roberts Road without having to .worry about transport system; it will be the dead end. I agree these extra semi-trailer buses which will be with the member for Welshpool that we should travelling in the area. They will be heavy and have buses in the suburbs commuting to stations awkward. Has anyone told us how much wear and where the trains are below ground. The buses tear buses do to roads? Is this costed against the could park on top of the lines in special areas. buses? There is no doubt the buses do tear up the People could commute to these areas by bus and roads. then jump on the trains to travel to the city or to I care a great deal about what happens. I care Frema ntle. about what will happen when our petrol runs out. We should be thinking of stopping the private We should be legislating for that situation now. cars going into the inner metropolitan area during Electricity will be the form of power we will use working hours. This would help cut down then. How we generate this electricity is up to pollution, something which is not being done by conjecture. However, at the present time while in the special equipment attached to the engines of this nuclear fission age we have plenty of coal. many cars. On this score alone one would think Coal is much safer and is what we should be we should not have private cars commuting to the looking at using in the future. We have all the city during working hours. coal we need to generate the power we need. I have been receiving letters from a great Surely this is the common-Sense Sort of thinking number of people in my electorate asking for the needed for our future requirements. We are retention of our railway system. A great number wasting money with our lack of priorities. of these people are Liberal supporters. I have Our present railway system has been allowed to spoken to the two previous Ministers for become derelict and obsolete. The last rolling Transport about the number of people who are stock bought was in 1966 and little of that went to complaining they -could not have their fares the Perth- Fremantte line. collected on short trips while travelling on trains At the meeting of the Subiaco City Council on over the last two years. I thought this to be a the 26th March, Dr David Carr vigorously small matter, as did the Ministers. There are no defended the proposal for the removal of the guards at the stations and it is hard to get the railway. He said the proposal to remove the conductors to collect the fares if one has a trip railway was as certain to occur as the fact that covering only one or two stations. 682 682ASSEMBLY)

I do not believe there is anything emotive about A number of people are vitally interested in this matter. As young boys we all liked to play retaining this railway system. As has been with trains. Even as old boys we like to join with mentioned by other members, it is obvious that, young children in playing with train sets. I believe throughout the entire world, rail systems are there will be a shortage of oil throughout the being used in the cities to transport people. One world and we could lose our supplies from the does not need to look into a crystal ball to see Middle East at any time, which would leave us in that. One need only read a report published by a terrible situation. We have little oil in storage. the Government of one of these countries which If this were to happen we would be looking for has a more realistic understanding of the matter alternative transport. It is certain that people will and is certainly wider awake than the not look to bicycles even though the exercise Government of this State, would be of benefit to them. I want to analyse the document which has been If the Government continues in its present vein, made available to the Opposition. I have taken it the electorate will react to the detriment of the apart paragraph by paragraph. I suggest to the Government. If my electorate is anything like Minister that he ask his people to publish another document, because this one is very poor. other electorates through which the train passes, then all I can say is that this must be so. The It refers to the attitude of the major city railway line bisects the Subiaco electorate. There councils to the closure of the Perth-FEremantle are approximately 8 000 people on the south side railway line. The Fremantle City Council was and the same number on the north side. I have given a raw deal when it asked that consideration had people living two kilomnetres from the line be given to its attitude on the closure of the vigorously asking that the line be left as it is. railway line. Of course, the Fremantle City Council opposes the closure, because it realises I have letters from good Liberals abusing the the value of the railway line to the port and to the Government's actions. Many of these people say if city of Fremantle. The closure of the Perth- the line is closed they will never vote for the Fremantle line will have a bearing on the future Liberals again and will not contribute to their population trends in the area. I will deal with the funds. This is not an emotive issue; it is a real question of the expansion of the population in issue of a lack of insight. Fremantle in a little while. In the very short term-since January-we Without a shadow of doubt the Perth City have seen what has happened to the oil situation Council was opposed to the closure of the railway in Iran. The peace treaty with Israel and Egypt line. It is obvious that some unusual practices could fail at any minute and then the oil we need were adopted wvhen one-day passenger counts will no longer be available. The oil available will were taken for the completion of the document of be a great deal more expensive. patronage. 1 understand one-day passenger counts We are using a false premise. I believe we were taken in 1971, 1975, and 1977 only. These should be following the examples of most of the counts are taken to establish the number of other countries of the world; that is, we should be passengers per kilometre of line and it was worked out on improving our rail system. If I continue I shall a statistical basis that there tad been a fallI become involved in tedious repetition. That is not in patronage of the railway. It is no wonder these statistics are suspect when they are used in what we want to hear. such a manner to prove a point. However, the people who MR SKIDMORE (Swan) [I11.11 p.m.J: I rise to have been assisting me in this matter have gone a support the amendment to the Address-in-Reply little further than that. They have transcribed the moved by the member for Avon. In particular, I figures into more realistic documentation and support that part of his amendment which refers they have arrived at a set of statistics which show to the closure of the Perth-Fremantle railway line. that the patronage of the railways has not fallen, I have listened with a great deal of interest to the but has in fact increased. This has not been done Minister's remarks in relation to the reasons by a public servant sitting on a plush seat in an behind the Government's avowed intention to get air-conditioned office, looking out the window and rid or' this railway line. I took note of the fact that counting the number of trains going past. The the Minister has issued a policy document public servant probably says, "Twenty trains went entitled, "Urban Public Transport for past, so 400 passengers used the railways today." Perth-Rail and Bus." I understand it was not That is about as much validity as we can attach to signed and the Minister made reference to the the f igures contained in the Minister's document. fact that he was responsible for issuing this A total figure for each line is given in the document. document, although it would be more realistic to [Tuesday, 24th April, 1979]18 683 give the figures to and from Perth, When this is Mr SKIDMORE: I have only the figures for done it can be seen that there were 5 362 trips to 1977. 1 suggest the figures the Minister has just Fremantle and 4 496 trips from Fremantle. Why mentioned were not used in the analysis he the discrepancy? Does it not reveal that there presented to us. may be large errors in the counting procedures, Mr Rushton: They may not have gone in. They which give a reliability to these figures of no more have been obtained. than plus or minus 10 per cent? However, the Mr SKIDMORE: They have been obtained decline in patronage between 1971 and 1977 is perhaps in an effort to be at least a little honest. only 3 per cent. It cannot be considered Now we are going to get a little honesty on the significant when one looks at these figures. Of question of statistics. course, the Minister tries to tell us that it is significant. He says that a remedy is needed Mr Rushton: If you would only be fair, that because of the decline in patronage. The document was produced well before this count Government is destroying a capital investment was taken. worth millions and millions of dollars. It is taking Mr SKIDMORE: Why did not the Minister that out of existence and replacing it with another make those igures available to the people who so capital investment worth millions and millions of desperately wanted to know the honest position? dollars and we shall then have to find the money Mr Rushton: They came out only recently.. for it. Mr SKIDMORE: I have limited time only and The Government intends to install busways to I do not want to be dragged along the red herring replace the railway line. When looked at in trail by the Minister for Transport. reality, it can be seen that it is a ridiculous waste The count taken on the Fremantle line was an of public money. Even if the system is not paying underestimate when compared with the counts its way, it is there for the future of this State. If taken on other lines. I have a table here which we remove the railway system and replace it with indicates that in Fremantle in 1977 the patronage a busway we are pandering to the people who was 9 858 people; the number of kilometres of line have written all the reports over the years relating was 19; and the number of passengers per to our transport system. If I ever wanted to kilometre of line was 519. substantiate the reasons for the destruction of a In Midland the number of patrons was 14 179 viable railway transport system, I would ask the over 16 kilometres, representing 886 passengers people who compiled the report supporting the per kilometre. On the Armadale line 10801 fact that busways are better than railways. passengers were carried over 30 kilometres, If we want to obtain a true analysis of the representing 360 passengers per kilometre. It has position in this State in regard to the railway been stated by other members the line we should system, we should ask the ex-Commissioner of be considering is the Armadale line, but it is not Railways to review the question in an honest suggested by me or any other member on this side manner. As a result of his report, the Minister that this should be the basis on which any line would find there is little truth in the statement should be closed. We do not believe that any line that busways are better than railways. The ex- should be closed, even though it carries less than Commissioner of Railways spent his lifetime 360 passengers per kilometre. working with the railways in this State, but very The member for Welshpool made it quite plain little notice was taken of him. that these services could be made viable. Transfer The physical counts taken on one day in 1977 stations are operating successfully. There is one at show that the count at Armadale was carried out Midland which operates well and which is on a Tuesday, at Midland on a Wednesday, and favourably received. This is probably the reason at Fremantle on a Thursday. They were the Midland line is patronised much more than conducted on the 26th, 27th, and 28th April are the other suburban lines. respectively. It is a known fact that patronage of In -regard to the average weekday trips, the the railways on the particular lines I have analysis indicates there is a great amount of mentioned is greater on Mondays, Tuesdays, and uncertainty in the first table presented. I want to Wednesdays. The count was taken on the read the paragraph to make the situation clear. It Fremantle line on the lowest day of patronage. is paragraph (d) on page 2 of the document, and The records revealed that passengers would be it reads as follows- using the service- b. Average weekday trips Mr Rushton: The last one was on a Tuesday, Estimates of average weekday trips have Wednesday, and Thursday. been made in the document (p. 8)- 684 684L[ASS EM BLIY]

That is the Minister's document. To continue- in the past year the train patronage has increased -based on these physical counts and total by 10.7 per cent and the bus patronage has suburban annual patronage. These must be decreased by 0.35 per cent. So the bus patronage subject to the same uncertainties considered decreased, but the Minister is trying to tell us that in the first table and thus the changes in buses are better than trains and that people are percentage quoted (e.g. Fremantle declined not using trains because they are going by bus. from 31% to 28%) cannot be considered Mr Rushton: They both have their uses. significant. Thus the figures quoted on Mr SKIDMORE: They certainly do, but it is decline in use on the Fremantle line in 1978 obvious that the patronage on the railways is far so numerously used cannot be considered more viable than the patronage on the buses. The reliable estimates, let alone hard facts. The rail service could be made better. most significant point, that has not been mentioned anywhere in the document, is that I well recall that when the takeover of the in the past year total suburban rail patronage railway passenger service by the MTT was being has increased from the previous year by discussed it was done on the basis of co-ordinating 10.7%. rail and bus traffic. What the MTT did whenever it could was to provide a bus service running The increase in patronage on the railways in this parallel to the railway service, thus taking away State has been 10.7 per cent. If the Minister the railway traffic. This was done on the Midland doubts the figures 1 suggest he gets his officers to line where for kilometre after kilometre the bus run another check to ascertain whether the people route runs parallel to the railway line. However, who supplied the information to me are wrong. I the railway passengers were not taken away, have checked it out in the limited time available probably because the people in the Swan to me. electorate are well aware of the value of the When we consider bus patronage we find we railways. However, I can tell the Minister they have the rather peculiar statistical gymnastics in would like a few bucks spent on the system to get which the Government indulges. The member for rid of the 40 and 50-year-old carriages which Gosnells has referred to the computation of costs rattle their way along the railway line. To and indicated that no-one ever bothers to cost the continue- bitumen and the cost of the building of the (ii) Once again it is important to see not just freeways. When we consider what the member for patronage but patronage per kilometre Avon said in regard to the computation of capital of route travelled. In the years 1969/70 costs of bus patronage we wonder what the to 1976/77 the MTT increased the situation would be. distance of their route-kilometres by When one considers the document supplied by 40.5% and their patronage decreased by the Minister in Support of the use of buses as the 0.5%. only viable method of urban transport, one asks So the MTr incurred a captial cost on new buses why other lines were not closed on the basis of the which were burning up precious fuel despite a loss anti-rail diatribe on pages I8 and 23. I suggest of patronage of 0.5 per cent. In addition of course the Minister looks at those pages. The document we must consider the roads which are being continues- pounded by additional buses. Someone must pay However it is important to give the for the upkeep of these roads because it is never objective data on bus patronage for charged against the MTT. It does not make a comparison with the rail figures. capital contribution to the road system. We, the (i) Bus patronage peaked in 1972/3 and people, pay. However, when we are comparing has been declining ever since. Over the one system with another, surely it is not past six years there has been a decline in unreasonable to consider the cost of establishing patronage on buses of 5.2 million whilst the roads and maintaining them. If we do not we trains have lost 1.7 million. are dishonest because the citizens of Western Which system is losing patronage and is costing Australia-and certainly the citizens of the State so much money? Which is the most Perth-subsidise the buses to that extent. In viable transport system in the State based on addition to the 30c fare a person must pay on a these figures? Surely one would not say that a bus bus, we could add probably another 25c per system, which loses 5.2 million passengers against passenger as that person's contribution to the cost 1.7 million lost on rail, would be considered to be of the roads. The document continues- the more viable unit or a cheaper system, or a Thus buses are going further and further system which would be better for people. In fact to get fewer and fewer passengers. This is [Tuesday, 24th April, 1979] 6858

despite large sums of money being spent on document. The density of the corridor is super airconditioned buses. By comparison not high and could be substantially the rail system which has had no similar increased without degrading the upgrading in equipment carries significantly environmental amenity. more people for the distance travelled. So we have a capacity of some 15 000 additional Instead of reading the statistical table which people, based on the study by ihose two groups. follows I will seek permission to table it under Those people could be fed into the system. Even Standing Order No. 116. The table sets out the apart from those figures, surely the Minister detail involved and this is rather hard to explain, would not be so naive as to suggest that the although I would be happy to give it a go if southern corridor will not expand tenfold during members would like me to do so. At the end of my' the next decade, or even sooner. Already the speech I will request permission to table it. Government has suggested there should be development to the south with the provision of a With regard to the passengers carried per recreational area. The Government has just kilometre in 1977-78, the result of the statistical purchased the land at Woodman Point. That will analysis* indicates that 1.53 passengers were mean more patrons. People will be linked by bus carried by bus, while for rail the number was to the present rail service. It does not leave much 4.05. Therefore there is no possible basis for to the imagination to see how expansion could be claiming the present lack of patronage as a reason achieved in the southern spur. However, this' to close any railway line in Perth and substitute Government says, "No, we do not want that sort buses. of development. We will use up our resources which will always be available to us!" A further reinforcement of what I have already said is the fact that my figures have been taken I ask the Minister not to try to tell me--and I from those supplied by the Minister. With regard would like the opportunity to argue with his to the potential patronage, it has been suggested experts, although 1 am not one-that if I were to by the Minister-as I understand his reply to the put a diesel engine in a railcar, and load that car arguments which were raised from this side of the with passengers, I could not move more House in support of the amendment-there would passengers than could the Minister with the same not be any increase in the number of patrons who horsepower bus. That has been proved time and could travel from the Fremantle area. That is not time again. The Minister should open his eyes and what the Fremantle City Council believes. Nor is look at other systems which operate in this it what the Government believes. manner. It surprises me that the Minister has not even When the Minister referred to the Victorian bothered to get his figures up to date with regard Minister for Transport I trust that he referred to to population growth. l do niot know who supplied Mr Rafferty. He was the Minister who made an him with the figures, but they were terribly assessment in 1977, and he said that people will inaccurate. Obviously, they have misled the turn back to public transport, and on a more Minister but, as a responsible Minister, at least he permanent basis this time. That comment was in should have checked them to make sure they were the jou rnalI quoted by the member for Avon. true. I will quote part of the document as Mr Rushton: The Victorian Minister told me follows- that State was closing the railways in favour of (i) The study which estimated. potential buses. population increases was not a study at Mr SKIDMORE: 1 have quoted what the all. It has- never been released and the Minister said in 1977. In fact, a little later I will only studies designed to look into these have more to say with regard to what the matters with some depth are the present Victorian Minister for Railways said on the Fremantle Sub-Regional Centre Study question of rail systems. I will enlighten the (who were not consulted), and the Ministei a little further. Fremiantle Inner Area Housing Study which concluded that a further 15,000 Mr Rushton: All the systems have their places. people could be added to one small area of Fremantle without going to high rise. Mr SKIDMORE- I have heard the Minist er Studies of this type consider make that statement so often. I sometimes think redevelopment on a much more he has joined the advertising agents on TV:. say comprehensive basis than the obviously something often enough and somebody will be trivial examination made for this taken in! However, I can tell the Minister he will 686 686[ASSEM BLY] not con me, or the people I represent. Certainly, $600 000-worth of spares was needed for the he will not con the members on this side of the trains. It is so easy to forget about the provision House. Because of falling patronage, the railway for spares for buse, and to say that it will not system is to be replaced by something which will matter very much. However, when the Minister be very costly. wants to show us how badly off the trains are he points out that we have to buy $600 000-worth of I imagine the member for Rockingham would spare parts. be interested in the fact-if he were here to hear me-that Rockingham is the fastest growing I would suggest it might cost considerably more suburb in the metropolitan area, but there is no for spares for the buse because the buses mention of Rockingham in the document. certainly will not be anywhere near as competitive as the diesel electric locomotion train system that Mr Rushton: There is reference to we have at the moment. Rockingham, and it does refer to a Labor Party proposition. It is said here that associated works are estimated at $1.2 million. For what? In fact, no Mr SKIDMORE: Then my information is designs or plans have yet been made. In the incorrect and I apologise to the Minister. Premier's announcement of the closure he did not However, that does not alter the fact that no say anything about plans or designs. So how can mention was made of potential patronage from they be costed? Is this another "guesstimate" out Rockingham. The Minister did not let me finish; of the air? There is no substantiation of it and no he jumped in boots, belts, and braces. The documentation to show that it is right. The Minister had not considered the question of the Government is merely padding out the cost potential of Rockinghamn, and the cost of involved in the changeover and ignoring the extending the line to that area. The cost would be realities. It is not telling the people of this State at least half of that involved in extending a exactly what it has in mind. freeway to cater for the same number of people. As for the capital costs of other systems, The document presented by the Minister sets mentioned on page I I of the document, I suggest out that the capital cost of $6.1 million was for none-of those items can be considered necessary to the maintenance of the Perth-Fremantle line, and maintain the rail system. They are just added 10 additional railcars- for the south-east corridor. costs. In fact, the closure of the railway line must That is in spite of the fact that the railcars which involve extensive changes in the building of an are to be transferred are almost due for integrated transport corridor. We have already replacement, anyway. The figures indicate that mentioned the capital expenditure involved in little has been spent on upgrading passenger cars ripping up an existing railway line and putting in in recent times. a busway, and the capital expenditure involved in I will not beg the subject any more because putting those buses into operation. The operating enough has been said. It was evident in the case of costs quoted, and certainly the figures in the abattoirs that when works are over-capitalised, table, are open to much criticism. and the kill drops, Financial difficulties occur. In The document appears to be a little that case they were closed down, the same as the contradictory. It claims there will be savings, railways are to close down. mainly in labour, when 115 men are removed The amount of capital expended on railways in from the Fremantle line and 165 men are the area between Perth and Fremantle has been employed elsewhere. Notwithstanding this strange mentioned by the member for Avon already. The piece of logic, I IS seems to be a highly inflated Minister has made the figures look so bad that he figure. Railway estimates show only 53 men-15 claims we cannot carry on wasting that money. It drivers, eight station officers, and 30 men covered certainly was a waste of money to upgraae many by the Australian Railway Ujnion, such as ticket of the facilities on that line when the intention of issuers, guards, etc. That union is aware of the the Government was to close it. number of men employed in these categories on the Fremantle line. It appears that 53 men, not Mr Pearce: Upgrading was going on almost to 115, could be affected by the decision. the time it was announced the line was to close. Other indirect costs of closure of the railway Mr SKID MORE: Another way to deal with the are not included in the Minister's estimates and capital cost problem is to buy I7 replacement documentation. These are community costs which buses at an estimated cost of $2.2 million. No cannot be estimated. Some of them have already spares are included in that price, even though been mentioned by the member for Subiaco. They [Tuesday. 24th April, 1979J]8 687 include hospital and other facilities which will be Mr Rushton: You will realise how wrong you needed because of increased accident rates with are in due course. greater use of buses and cars. Nobody can cost human suffering as a result or accidents which Mr SKIDMORE: Time alone will tell. As the must occur through greater use of buses, even oin member for Welshpool said, the Minister is 100 a busway. Sooner or later people must get off the years out of date in his thinking on transport buses. So there is another conflict. systems. Neither I nor my colleagues will be here The member for Gosnells has already to receive accolades for our stand on this matter, mentioned the Armadale line and the congestion but history will show we are right and the on Albany Highway, Shepperton Road, Berwick Minister is wrong, because he has his head in the Street, and the feeder roads to the railway line. sand. Other nations have woken up, some of them On top of that there are maintenance and extra 50 years too late. I ca n on ly say the Mi nister j ust Car parks and bus shelters which must be provided does not know. by local councils. In other words, increased rates I said I would refer to some problems will be charged by councils to provide those mentioned by the Minister for Transport in facilities for buses, which are not included in any Victoria (the Hon. J1.A. Rafferty). It appears to per capita costing of moving people in buses. Let me that at least in this regard Mr Rafferty made us also consider the running costs and the cost of a lot of sense when he said in September, 1977, fuel for cars-which are extra costs to the that we must face up to the fact that we have seen individual-when the busway system is not the last of cheap petrol and oil. That fact is well compatible with the needs or people. known to all of US. Mr Rafferty Went on to say it I have some figures on the decrease in was not hard to draw the conclusion in this patronage, if I have time to get to them, but I will situation, with a voluntary or compulsory fuel carry on with these hidden costs, such as conservation programme, that people will turn environmental costs due to noise and air pollution back to public transport. Mr Rafferty, a Minister which affect the quality or life and are hard to in the Victorian Government, has already measure in dollars. indicated his views. So again there is Obvious I remember the member for Melville concern in regard to those matters. complaining bitterly about the increased heavy It is difficult to understand fully all the figures traffic on one of the roads in his electorate. The relating to costs. The question of increased road people are up in arms about it but when he tried traffic was dealt with fleetingly, and I can touch to get some assistance from the Minister for on this matter only briefly also. In the United Health he found no standards had been set in Kingdom it has been estimated that no more than relation to noise pollution. The member for a 30 per cent transfer to buses occurred when a Subiaco has already mentioned the noise and train line or a train route was closed. Let us be interference at Princess Margaret Hospital. Of generous, and take a 50 per cent changeover course, it will be horrific, bearing in mind it will figure to buses to see what the effect would be on be not only car and bus traffic but also haulage Stirling Highway. transport. In 1977 there were 27 343 average daily trips I will mention two spur lines of which I have on Stirling Highway. On a six-day week, 50 per knowledge; namely, those going from the existing cent of 2.6 million would be 4 167 daily trips; that system into the Cottesloe flour mill and into the is, a 15 per cent increase. It would be a 25 per Great Southern Roller Flour Mills at North cent increase on a 30 per cent changeover to Fremantle. The result of the removal of the rail buses. We have been kind enough to use a figure system will be that heavy transport has to load of 50 per cent as distinct from the considered bulk wheat out of railway systems somewhere, figures of the factual documentation of transfers and transport it by road to the mill. The wheat in England-and no doubt in other will then be gristed, put into transports, and taken countries-from trains to buses; that is, 30 per out again, not only to the local market but also to cent. The accident rate is related to the volume of the Wharf. All the export flour that comes from traffic, as we well know. We were given a figure the Northam and Narrogin mills will go of 715 accidents per annum on Stirling Highway, thundering down to Fremantle on the road 20 per cent involving injuries. This figure could be system. So much for a co-ordinated, integrated expected to rise by 15 per cent. How do we cost transport system. There will be double handling, that increase in the accident rate? I do not know double loading, and double costing, which the how we put a figure on human suffering. people will have to pay. However, we should not look at the whole 688 688[ASSEMBLY] problem as being one of dollars and-cents and The following table was incorporated by leave close a system of transport which has proved safe, of the House- for the people. The social cost of accidents, adjusted for the Route km Passengers Passengers trvelled per km CPI-based on W. G. Connel's Australia in Mode (1977/78) "" travelled Figures, 1974-is $1.58 per vehicle kilometre. If a (1977/78) (1 977/78) conservative estimate of a five kilometre average BUS 57.2 x 106 -- 37.4 x N0O 1.53 distance travelled along Stirling Highway is RAIL I8.9 x 10' 2.2 x 106.1 4.05 assumed, with an extra 4 167 daily trips, then the social cost would rise by $32 919 a day, or a little over $12 mil lion a year. SIR CHARLES COURT (Nedlands-Premier) [11.56 p.m.]: I want to comment briefly in So based on the Figures 1 have been given, the support of the remarks made by the Minister for closure of the Fremantle-Perth railway line will Transport who is handling this matter for the cost the people of this State an additional $12 State Government. million a year due to accidents caused by the increased use of Stirling Highway. Surely one Firstly, I want to say that the Opposition has does not have to look any further than that to say put up a very poor old effort in trying to justify that although the railway line is not a paying the stand it has taken. With all the publicity it proposition at the moment, it would be a very has received, all of the propaganda and the short-sighted policy to close it. promotion that has occurred, we expected tonight the Opposition would at least be able to come up The people will pay for the closure of the with a convincing case to keep the railway line railway line, and we will pay through an increased open. accident rate; we will pay for the capital cost involved in destroying an established railway Mr Skidmore: Obviously you have been asleep system, and we will pay for the institution of a all night. bus service. Sir CHARLES COURT: That is the right of There is not a shadow of doubt about it-the emasculation of the railway system would never the Opposition, and also its responsibility- have occurred if the MTT had been honest enough to give an opportunity to Westrail to shift Several members interjected. the passengers involved. There would have been no necessity to close the line, but it happened to The SPEAKER: Order! One of the features of be Liberal Party thinking that it has to go. The the debate tonight is that those who have been addressing themselves to the question have been Government pandered to the big three-the oil able to-do so without interjection. I ask that the companies, the motor vehicle manufacturers, and Premier be accorded the same sort of opportunity. the rubber and tyre manufacturers. It seems to me that they are the only ones who count with Mr Pearce: I had a few problems. this. Government. I support, without any qualifications, the Sir CHARLES COURT: I want to remind amendment moved by the member for Avon. I members of the House that, ta king the total trust sincerely that the Government takes note of public transport system in the metropolitan area, the Matters we have raised. Certainly tonight the 85 per cent of passengers are transported by bus Minister has been made aware of some of the already. From the debate here tonight anyone fallacies and incorrect information contained in would get the idea the bus service is just a fringe the documentation that he says, is available so operation that somebody has just thought of and readily to the people of this State. we want to expand. The SPEAKER: Before I give the call to the The cold, hard facts are that only 15 per cent of Premier, did I understand the member for Swan public passengers are carried by train. Even if we wishes to seek leave to incorporate a table in increased that by 50 per cent, it means that only HansariV 22 / per cent of the public passengers would travel by train. So we are not dealing with a new Mr SKIDMORE: Yes, Sir. I have prepared a and novel idea; we are dealing with something note for Hansard indicating the table concerned. already established-a service which members on both sides of the House would acknowledge is run The SPEAKER: Leave granted. very efficiently under the chairmanship of Mr (Tuesday, 24th April, 1979]18 689

George Shea and the people before him. The originally-and one has to look through H-ansard, MTT was established on a sound basis, and I volumes 2, 3, and 4, of 1972- believe it has operated efficiently- Mr Jamieson: Yes, from May to October. Mr Jamnieson: Well, you might believe it. We Sir CHARLES COURT: -to get a full say that the services are not co-ordinated coverage of the debate in both Houses. properly. Mr Jamieson: The whole of the game changed Sir CHARLES COURT: If the member for while it was going through. Welshpool wishes to talk about co-ordination, we Sir CHARLES COURT: Well, we can play could go back a long way to the period when the around with words; but I am talking about the Hon. H. E. Graham was Minister for Transport Bill as it was introduced, and the Bill as it left the and ask a few questions. House. Mr Jamieson: He co-ordinated all the bus I want the member to get back to the basic services. thought which is the nub of the whole proposition. Sir CHARLES COURT: The member for This Government is committed to a very strong Welshpool endeavoured to give the impression expanding railway system. That is basic to the that when he introduced the 1972 legislation for Government's policy, and it was the policy of the the Perth regional railway be did not intend to Brand Government. I remind members that in close the Leighton-Perth sector of the railway. 1959 when the Brand Government came to office Mr Jlamieson: You know he didn't say that. the railways were in an awful mess. There was Sir CHARLES COURT: I have read his that long, protracted Royal Commission headed by Magistrate Smith; there was friend against speech again tonight. friend in the railways; and we had the biggest Mr Jamieson: He didn't say that. mess one has ever seen. Sir CHARLES COURT: I have also read the Mr Jamieson: Who put in the three Bill. I want to remind members that the member commissioners? The McLarty Government. for Welshpool referred particularly to clause 5(2). Sir CHARLES COURT: We committed Mr Jamieson: That clause was put in by the ourselves first of all to wind up that Royal Legislative Council; I do not deny that. Commission and to get it out of the system so that Sir CHARLES COURT: Clause 5(2) was the railways would be able to settle down and get included by the Legislative Council after the back to work. We also promised we would get the Government had brought a Bill to this House for system onto a commercial basis. At that time in one purpose and that was for permission to close 1959 the morale of the employees was shattered. the railway. People did not like to own up to the fact that they Mr Jamieson: No it wasn't. worked in the railways. The system was uneconomic; antiquated rolling stock was in use; Sir CHARLES COURT: This amendment was and we were making very slow progress towards spelt out by the then Minister in the Legislative dieselisation. Council after a lot of pressure. I have read through the debates in the Legislative Council as Mr Bryce: I suspect there is a knight in shining well as the debates in this Chamber. armour coming around the corner. Mr Jamieson: They are all there. Sir CHARLES COURT: The Brand Government committed itself to a programme of Sir CHARLES COURT: After a great deal of modernising the railways. Members opposite may pressure the Tonkin Government agreed to laugh,' but if they refer back to railwaymen of include clause 5(2) which provided that the that era they will find a complete transformation matter would have to come back to Parliament. occurred. We got some decent rolling stock and Mr Jamieson: Your Minister has been going we had the standardisation of the Kalgoorlie-to- around saying we introduced a Bill to close this coast rail gauge. It was not by accident that was line, and we did not. negotiated; it was the result of the Koolyanobbing Sir CHARLES COURT: I was just coming deposits, because without those deposits no-one back to the fact that the Government of the day, had been. successful in getting the catalyst committed as it was to this proposition, was necessary for the modernising of the railways. prepared to bring the legislation forward in that During the course of the construction of that original form, but then subclause (2) of clause 5 railway, during my administration of the was inserted in another place a long time later. portfolio, and during the term of the present The Government brought the Bill into this House Minister for Labour and Industry as Minister for 690 690ASSEMBLY]

Railways, we pleaded with the Commonwealth Midland but also elsewhere, and going north in Government to put in heavier Steel rails and particular. When it came to the moment of sleepers in order to achieve a standard which decision in connection with the Perth-Fremantle would enable the line to carry the volume of line, I believed it was possible to retain the line if traffic anticipated in 1985 and beyond. It is we could change the whole town planning concept history that thy Commonwealth refused. I think from West Perth right through to about Cottesloe the main reason for the refusal was that if the and North Fremantle in order to increase the heavier rails were used we would have had a density of population along the railway line on the better railway going to Kalgoorlie than the basis of achieving a situation similar to that Commonwealth had from Kalgoorlie on. It is to achieved in Cleveland in the United States. the everlasting disgrace of the Commonwealth The member for Welshpool said we should send Government that it refused our pleas, and we the Minister abroad, and no doubt he will go have to spend huge sums of money on the abroad to look at some of the systems we have in rehabilitation of that railway. It is no credit to the mind for the northern corridor, which I have Canberra Government of the time, because that is already discussed with the Minister and on which the basis of the argument- I have asked him to do some additional Mr Jamieson: The files do not show that you homework. There have been people looking at were very insistent. systems abroad. The San Francisco system is very Sir CHARLES COURT: The member for elaborate and highly automated. If the computer Welshpool can say what he likes but the cold, is working one can buy a ticket; but if the hard fact is that a very bitter and sustained computer is not working no-one is available to argument occurred with SirGordon Freeth, who look after one. was then the Commonwealth Minister. That Mr Jamieson: They do not have many failures argument took place both in public and in private, now. and the matter was the subject of protracted Sir CHARLES COURT: They had plenty of negotiations. In fact, had we been able to scratch failures when I first used the system. When the up the money we would have done the work system is working it is a good system, and it is a ourselves. clean and pleasant way to travel. However, it is so That is the reason that this railway had a automated that if it breaks down a person cannot limited life, because the lire of steel rails is buy a ticket and get on the train. That is one of determined by the traffic that flows on them. So the things we must expect when we get to a we find a grievous error was made not by the higher degree of automation. Western Australian Government but by the The system that appealed to me most was the Canberra contingent, because it said the weight of one in Cleveland, which has a rapid transit system the rails and the size of the sleepers were which goes approximately the same distance west sufficient, and we should be happy with them. of that city as from Perth to Fremantle, and the As it happened, the traffic increased at a much same distance east as we go from Perth to faster rate than was anticipated, and we are now Midland;, and it also has a section that goes out to carrying tonnages which were projected for 1985. a place called Shakers Heights to the north. 1 mention this as part of the whole concept, Ironically the two systems were run by two because the basic thrust was to get into bigger organisations which have now been amalgamated. tonnages and the right type of rolling stock. I understand that in spite of the fact th iere When we look at the tankers which are used appeared to be a very bright future for the today for carrying wheat and compare them with system, it ran into trouble. the KA wagons which used to spill wheat all down The whole concept of putting an interchange at the track, we see how the railways have been Midland came about as a result of a study of the transformed. This was done with a view to the Cleveland system, in which one can come in from extra tonnage of the iron ore, the wheat, and the outlying areas and park one's car and ride on a alumina, as well as the bauxite going into the train, or one can be brought in by a relative on alumina plant. When one considers all this one the park-and-ride system. gets some idea of the commitment of this Mr JIamieson: That is the kiss-and-ride system. Government to a railway system. Sir CHARLES COURT: That is right; the *Let us now come back to the passenger side. I park-and-ride system is when the person parks his was committed to retaining the passenger side, car at the station. That system traverses what is because I believed we needed a network in the virtually a corridor of about 12 or 15 miles of metropolitan area not only from Fremantle to high rise, high density accommodation. People at [Tuesday, 24th April, 1979]19 691 any point have to walk no further than half a mile Sir CHARLES COURT: I come back to the to a railway station and a very efficient service is point that there were many areas which appeared provided by the rapid transit system. to be negotiable. Take for instance that huge tract I understand in recent times the system has not of land which is the Karrakatta Army Barracks. I been working quite as well as was expected, give that only as an example of the number of although at the time I was there it was flourishing alternatives the Government sought to find an and appeared to be the answer. It was on the basis answer because we did basically want to retain of that concept that I was anxious to see the same the railway. However, every way we looked and sort of development here. every bit of advice we received came back to the I had to say to the Minister for same answer. I emphasise we were doing this Transport-who, coincidentally, was previously because 1, as Premier, wanted to find a reason to the Minister for Local Government and the keep the railway open. Minister for Urban Development and Town However, we then decided the only way to Planning-"[ think this should be studied and handle this in the future was to accept the fact also We should consider the area of Karrakatta on that the patronage had gone-that the density of both sides of the railway. Have a good look at population in the area had been falling-and that, this, because it seems to me to be a lay down of course, is the generator of rail traffic. misere. It should be of some attraction to property Therefore, we had to look at the lines where owners to enable some kind of high density potential existed for improved patronage; namely, residential development which could generate rail the Perth-Midland and Perth-Armadale lines. traffic." On top of that, we had to look to the line that The answer I received was that first of all my Gordon Stephenson always advocated, going idea was not altogether practical; that it might north of the city. Provision has been made in the appear all right to me as a layman; but that a freeway reserve for that to be done. It is part of very high density of residential population could the Minister's brief and part of the Government's not be generated suddenly over a period of Five, commitment to see what form of public transport seven, or 10 years. Consequently, when they gave should be incorporated in that reserve. I do not me the figures regarding what could be done even think it will be a conventional type of tram or if everyone agreed with the plan I had in mind, I train; I think it could be something quite found it would not make enough difference to revolutionary and different, which would probably change materially the economics of the railway overcome some of the economic problems to be system, even assuming a high proportion of the found with a conventional type of train or tram. population used the railway. .The Minister for Transport-who, as I said, I am one who believes that if we want to shift coincidentally was the Minister for Urban large numbers of people, the fixed line type of Development and Town Planning-can confirm operation is by far the safest and best and, that the experts had a good look at this ultimately, the cheapest. However, we must deal proposition and rejected it. I might add that it with the next 10, I5, or 20 years. Members will was looked at superficially some years before that notice that everything the Government has done when Mr Lloyd was the Commissioner fJor Town has been to keep the options open for a future Planning and he rejected it rather pre-emptorily, generation. Even if in the future, because of some because he felt it was not realistic. transformation, the Government of the day decides to revive the Perth-Fremantle sector of However, the cold, hard facts are that it was the railway system-although the best advice we demonstrated to the Government that there was have been able to receive is that it will not the same prospect of channelling traffic for never happen-that will still be that railway as appeared to be the case in the possible. Cleveland rapid transit system. I mention that to I remind members that the whole concept is an remind members that the Government has not upgrading of the entire railway system, of the capriciously decided this railway should close and lines from Perth to Midland, Perth tb Armadale, we should go over to some other system. We have and the northern route which eventually must be made this decision only after studying* not only serviced by some means or another. the public transport system but also the total The question of fuel has been raised. Here transport question which will have to be resolved again, we need to deal with the realities of today. over the next five, 10, 15, or 20 years. Where would we get the money to electrify this Mr Jamieson: The densest area-Mvosmans-is railway at today's cost in the immediate future, serviced by the MTT. It is not related to the line. not having an economic case? 692 692[ASSEMBDLY]

The day will come when this whole energy southern side of Fremantle into the Fremantle question will be faced up to in a different way. station and from there to Perth. However, that For instance, three years ago and even 12 months proposal did not get very far. I[thought it was the ago we could not get any sense out of the Commonwealth regarding the potential of feeding sensible thing to do at the time but, like a few electricity produced by the Ord hydro-power other ideas put forward by Ministers-as the scheme, limited though it is, across to Darwin so member for Welshpool knows-when the people as to make it a viable proposition for the East who had the responsibility of operating these Kimberley. However, because of the changing systems came to grips with the proposal, they fuel situation and the continuing commitments of gave us an entirely different picture. the Commonwealth towards the power costs of Darwin and the Northern Territory it became an Then we looked at the possibility of feeding in entirely different situation. two stations like Cottesloe, Claremont, or Even if we did not in the immediate future need Subiaco, with'a view to having elaborate parking the full potential of the Ord hydro-power scheme arrangements such as are provided in the in East Kimberley, the linking-in with Darwin, Cleveland system. We contemplated providing much to my surprise, possibly may be economic in space for 500 or I1000 cars at a couple of these spite of the great length of transmission line to be stations, where people could park their cars and constructed from the East Kimberley right across to Darwin. Again, this is part of a changing travel the rest of the way to Perth by rail. energy pattern. Members opposite referred to the. It was pointed out clearly that we would not get electrification of our railway system as though it people to do that because once they get into their were something which we could just go and buy vehicles and are headed into Perth, it is obvious off the shelf. It just is not possible in today's economic circumstances. they will continue their journey uninterrupted. We had to deal with the problems of today and Mr Jamieson: You should make it more the next five years and, at the same time, not difficult for them to drive into the city. overlook the next generation. In our approach to this problem, members and the public can be Sir CHARLES COURT: So, I believe the real assured that when we get rid of all the solution to the problem will come when we get the emotiveness-and there is an awful lot of northern corridor development off the ground. emotiveness when we deal with the railways; I However, whoever works on that project will have have been through it often-and when we get to make sure there is adequate interchange all down to the nitty-gritty, what the Government along the line. We are dealing with a great has done and seeks to do is inevitable, but it has not closed any options for the future. mileage, with lines running north as far as Yanchep. It will be worth while for people to feed So, a total railway concept is one of expanding tonnages in the field in which it can best be used, in because once they do they will be heading in and which arises out of the SWATS report. That the right direction, to the capital. is why the Minister is devoting himself entirely to All in all, I believe the Minister for Transport the one portfolio--because of the burden of the SWATS report and the detailed discussions and has done a good job in obtaining advice for the negotiations which must take place. The Government and in making his recommendations. Government is considering this in conjunction He has answered very adequately the amendment with the public transport system, and in this area moved by the member for Avon. I oppose the a combination of rail and bus possibly is the amendment. answer for which we have been looking. I repeat that we have not closed any options either for Amendment put and a division taken with the ourselves or for the next generation, and I think following result- this is the way we should do it. Ayes 14 Mr Jamieson: You should try a feeder service Mr Barnett MT. H. Jones Mr Bertram Mr Pearce on the Fremantle line first. Mr Bryce NitSkidmore Sir CHARLES COURT: We did have a took M rT. J.Burke Mr Taylor Mr Carr Mr Tonkin at a feeder service not only at this time but also a Dr Dadour Mr Wilson long time ago. For instance, a feeder service was Mr Jamieson Mr Bateman contemplated to feed passengers from the (Teller) (Tuesday, 24th April, 1979j 6939

Noes 20 WORKERS' COMPENSATION Mr Clarko Mr Mensaros Sir Chiarles Court Mr Nanovich Medical Reports Mr Coyne Mr Old Mrs Craig Mr O'Neil 2. Dr TROY, to the Minister for Labour and Mr Grayden Mr Ridg Industry: Mr Hassell Mr Rushton Mr Herzfeld Mr Sodeman My question refers to the reply to Mr P. V. Jones Mr Spri*gs. question No. 455. Mr MacKinnon Mr Williams Mr McPharlin Mr Sbalders (1) Is the Minister aware that the State (Teller) Government Insurance Orfflce has Pairs railed to comply with the Act in the Ayes Noes Mr H. D. Evans Mr Sibson case of John Doohan? Mr IHodge Mr Blaikie (2) Will the Minister direct the 5010 Mr B.T. Burke Mr Crane to make available the medical Mr Harman Mr Watt Mr Davies Mr Grewar report on Mr Doohan to him? Mr Grill Mr O'Connor (3) If not, why not? Dr Troy Mr Young Mr T. D. Evans Mr Tubby Mr O'CONNOR replied: Mr Mclver Mr Laurance (1) No. Amendment thus negatived. (2) and (3) 1 will make inquiries of the State Government Insurance Office Debate (on motion) Resumed and request information. Debate adjourned, on motion by Mr Laurance. ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE: SPECIAL JOONDALUP DEVELOPMENT SIR CHARLES COURT (Nedlands-Premier) CORPORATION: LAND [12.21 a.m.I: I move- Mining and Transfer That the House at its rising adjourn until 2.15 p.m. on Thursday, the 26th April. 3. Mr B. T_ BURKE, to the Minister for Urban Development and Town Planning: Question put and passed. Referring to her answer to my question No. 472, and as the Minister has (Wednesday). House adjourned at 12.22 a.m. twice-previously in November of last QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE year-misled the House by saying that CONSUMER AFFAIRS land had not been transferred and she now admits it has been transferred, and Ma Evans Hair Restorer remembering that the issuing of a title is 1.Mr TONKIN, to the Minister for Consumer not a transfer of land, will the Minister Affairs: please explain how land, the subject of Bearing in mind that some of our less applications for mineral claims, was fortunate and hairy brethren may not transferred prior to her telling this know that those whose hair is thin on House, on two separate occasions, that it top are in the forefront of man's had not been transferred? evolutionary march and, in fact, are Mrs CRAIG replied: exhibiting undoubted symptoms of Let me make it quite clear that I have in leadership in the virility stakes, will he no way misled the House. I have given take steps to inform those who might the member a very careful and detailed of mistakenly be concerned at the onset the question, which reply virility as to whether Ma Evans hair reply to indicates quite clearly the date on which restorer has any value? the title became available to the Mr O'CONNOR replied: corporation; that was, the 20th March I would suggest the member put the this year. question on the notice paper. As yet, I If I recall correctly the question asked in have not had any need to use the hair November last year was without notice. restorer, and I know nothing about it. 694 694[ASSEMBLY]

.JOONDALUP DEVELOPMENT (1) Is it a fact, as reported in the Daily CORPORATION: LAND News of the 18th April, that the State Mining and Transfer Housing Commission will no longer advise local councils of changes in 4. Mr B. T. BURKE, to the Minister for Urban tenants? Development and Town Planning: (2) If "Yes"- Does the Minister expect the House to (a) Does he concede that this will believe that the issue of a title is the reduce the likelihood of the tenants transfer of land? being enrolled as occupiers for local Quite clearly, land can be transferred government elections? for a period of six months, or for years, (b) How does the Government justify without a title issuing. The fact that a the decision? title was issued in March has nothing to (6) Is this decision a part of the do with the transfer of land in a previous Government's policy of period. discouraging people who do not own Will the Minister please explain how the property from enrolling for local issue of a title is considered by her to be government elections? a transfer of land? Mr RIDGE replied: Mrs CRAIG replied: (I) and (2) I must confess I did see the My reply is that if the member puts that article in the newspaper, and I did question on the notice paper tomorrow I intend to pursue it with the State will indicate quite clearly how he can Housing Commission. At this stage I overcome the misapprehension under have not raised the matter because I which he labours. believe the last section of the newspaper article indicated that a request would be made to the State Housing Commission for certain information to be made RAILWAYS: FARES available to local authorities at a particular time of the year to assist in Leighton-Ma ylands the compilation of electoral lists. 5. Mr HARMAN, to the Minister for It is my intention to pursue the matter Transport: with the commission, and I will be (1) What is the cost of an adult rail fare happy to convey the answer to the from Maylands to Leighton? member in writing. (2) Is there an additional cost for a baby's pram when taken on by the passenger? If so, what is the amount? (3) Is there an additional cost for a ENERGY: NUCLEAR surfboard when taken on by the Programme passenger? If so, what is the amount? 7. Mr GRILL, to the Minister for Fuel and Mr RUSHTON replied: Energy: (I) 45c. In an article in tonight's paper the (2) Between 4.00 p.m. and 6.00 p.m. on Prime Minister refers to a programme week days, an additional charge of 45c which has been set by the Western is made for a baby's pram on trains. Australian Government for the There is no additional cost at other implementation of nuclear power in this times. State. (3) Yes-50c. What, in general terms, is that programme, and what is the approximate timetable of the HOUSING: RENTAL programme? Mr MENSAROS replied: Tenancy Changes: Notification to Local Authorities I saw the newspaper article, the same as did the honourable member, and it is a 6. Mr CARR, to the Minister for Housing: matter of interpretation of the article. (Tuesday, 24th April, 19791 695

My interpretation is that the Prime nuclear-generated power by 1995, or Minister referred to the very well-known thereabouts. fact-to everyone except, perhaps, the In order to implement this policy the member for Yilgarn-Dundas-that the Government will take all the preliminary Government has announced it will have steps which are necessary. 696 [ASSEM BLYJ QUESTIONS ON N0flCE

ENERGY: GAS (3) Can she please explain the anomaly that appears to exist between her an- Nor tA-West Shelf: Work Force swer and the actual situation? 363. Mr DAVIES, to the Minister for Labour Mrs CRAIG replied: and Industry; (1) to (3) In respect of the land over which ()What is the expected- applications for mineral claims had (a) construction workforce; been made, the Crown Granc was signed by the Governor on the 18th (b) permanent workforce, May, 1978 and the Registrar of Titles for the North-West Shelf ithe project on the 15th August, 1978. It was proceeds? issued to the corporation on 20th (2) In what categories would the workforce March, 1979. be employed? In respect of land over which mineral (3) What steps have been taken to train claim! at present exist, no grant has as Western Australians in each of these yet been made to the corporation. Categories? (4) How many Western Australians are cur- RAILWAYS rently under apprenticeship or are being Loan trained by other methods to take employment with each of the 483. Mr BRIAN BURKE, to the Treasurer: categories? (1) Was the recent Westrail loan under- (5) How many employees are expec~ed to subscribed? be imported fromn- (2) If "Yes" by how much was it under- (a) Eastern States; subscribed? (b) overseas, Sir CHARLES COURT replied: on this project? See answer to question No. 2 of Tues- Mr O'CONNOR replied: day, 3rd April, 1979. (1) and (2) 1 would refer the member to the reply to qtjestion No. 2153 of Tuesday, 31st October, 1978. STATE FINANCE (3) A variety of training schemes are in Stare Government Insurance Office's Operation, however, the State Govern- Coniribuzion ment is placing the emphasis on BURKE, to the Minister for apprenticeships and the intensive trade 484. Mr BRIAN training proposal which is presently Labour and Industry: being considered by the Commonwealth. What percentage of total State revenue (4) Registered apprenticeship numbers as at did the State Government Insurance 3 Is( December, 1978, were 12 684. Office contribution represent in each of the past four years? (5) Not known at this time. Mr O'CONNOR replied: No conlribut ions have been made to JOONDALUP DEVELOPMENT revenue during the past four years. CORPORATION Land: Mining HOUSING: ABORIGINES 472. Mr BRIAN BURKE, to the Minister for Number, Funds and Reserves Urban Development and Town Planning: 485. Mr BRIAN BURKE, to the Minister for (I) Referring to information previously sup- Housing: plied by her when in November, 1978, (1) How much money was or will be she informed the Parliament that land allocated for building houses for the subject of applications for mineral Aboriginal people in each town in claims had not been transferred to the Australia in- Joondalup Development Corporation, Western can she explain how a search of the (a) 1976; title of the land referred to reveals it (b) 1977; was transferred to the corporation sev- (c) 1978; eral months prior to the date on which (d) 1979? she provided the information? (2) How much of each allocation is moneys (2) Can she now give the correct date on received from the Department of which the transfer was completed? Aboriginal A ffairs? [Tuesday, 24th April, 1979) 697

(3) In each town where an Aboriginal HOUSING: ABORIGINES reserve exists: Flats (a) how many houses were cqmpleted;, 486. Mr BRIAN BURKE, to the Minister for and Housing: (b) how many are currently under construction for the years ended (I) How many Aboriginal applicants have 30th June: been allocated fiats by the State Hous- ing Commission? (i) 1977; 00i 1978; and (21 In how many instances have such tenancies resulted in complaints from (iii) 1979? neighbours or others? Mr RIDGE replied: (3) In how many cases has the State Housing Commission considered these complaints to be justified? 69274 Meelut1hemr 2 92006 Moors 101326 Mr RIDGE replied: broowne 98 741 203241 (1) Approximately 70. 2 45843 Wyndham 4743 (2) 5. 30 675974 (3) 1. Metropolitan 503 170 2 I 179144 (b) 1977-71- 4 collie 33 4911 HOUSING Oeraldton 15276 Mullewa. 23 71102 Vietnamese Refugees CamarMon 148320 Broorne 212760 .4 487. Mr BRIAN BURKE, to the Minister for 179 040 Housing: Redland 193915 4 (1) What representations has he made to t 097234 3 Mlopolilan 383 143 the Australian Government seeking * 4 assislance specifically to assist in the 12 1 480399 (e) 197-79- housing of Vietnamese refugees? Metropolitmn area M684400 Albany 2 136801 (2) Will he please table any correspondence Esperaftee 124334 Ono"Waerm, I 143713 or other documentary evidence of any 39900 approach made? Duasel'on 2 23280 Carnurvon 543 IS0 Merredin 77770 Mr RIDGE replied: 1105300133309 (1) None. Ceraldlon 25 300 Pinjurra 3250 (2) Does not apply. De1rbyce 417970 Hagn Cek 187700 Neldland 371 175 Kunurufar 11t997 $2 634219 488. This question was postponed. 72 $3002619

(d) Unk~nownaI tipstime. (2) All the above ellonuions were funded by the Department HOUSING of Aboriginal Ala1ins. The following units were built frrom State Fonds. Bunbury, Ailbany, Geraldton and 1977-78- Port Hedland Moors * . s/D houses 186939 Mo4ore...... 4 PCnsionerunits 83316 489. Mr BRIAN BURKE, to the Minister for Collie ...... 3fPensone = units 120932 Middle Swan 4 S/0 houses 197000 Housing: "fi68 207 (I) How many houses and other units of accommodation were built in- (3) N~o.of house coosplcendin tn-rn where resrves exiat- (a) Bunbury; (a) 1977-78- (b) Albany; Mulle" (c) Geraldton; Moor~s 6 3 (d) Port Hedland, Aroomte. 4 Derby * 2 IKununurra s 3 by the State Housing Commission in- PlortHedland 4 (1) 1972-73; 24 (ii) 1973-74; (iii) 1974-75; jb) 1978-39-4o be comenced ahonlty,not undereurslruction 00v 1975-76; at the present I rne- Cnowaeg5-1, 4 (v) 1976-77; Cerrtermn 12 Derby -6 .(vi) 1977-78? HallsCreek 9 Port Hadland (2) H-ow many new houses and other units Kutunura . 2a No1rtan 4 of accommodation have been program- med for completion in each area in 43 the current financial year? 698 698[ASSEMBLY] Mr RIDGE replied: HOUSING: RENTAL Family Size: Reduction YCAr Bunburl Aibsn Gasldto Hodan 492. Mr BRIAN BURKE, to the Minister for W92-73 6926... Housing: *973-74 3 1.9 Why is the State Housing Commission P957 2 11 37 977 3 M 73 12 now including in the tenancy agree- *977-78 35 26 43 ments covering rental homes provision (2) for allowing tenants to be forced to iu8-79 13 Is 332 vacte homes if family size falls to an Programmed work is at various stages extent which renders smaller accom- of construction, some may not be com- modation suitable? pleted at the end of this financial year. Mr RIDGE replied: This provision was introduced in 1969 as a precautionary measure against the possibility of under-occiupation of rental units becoming a serious problem. It HOUSING has no! been invoked by the commis- Nollamara, Balga, Girrawheen, and sion to date. Koondoola 490. Mr BRIAN BURKE, to the Minister for Housing: (I) How many units of accommodation an~ vacant in- (a) Nollamara; HOUSING (b) flalga; Building Blocks: Ser viced (c) Girrawheen; and 493. Mr BRIAN BURKE, to the Minister for (d) Koondoola? Housing: (2) What type of accommodation is vacant (1) How many serviced residential home in each suburb referred to? sites does the State Housing Commnis- (3) Where is each vacancy? sion now hold? (4) How long has each of the units been (2) Where are these lots? vacant? (3) How did the stock of serviced lots vary (5) What method does the commission in each of the past five years? employ to ensure that vacancies are Mr RIDGE replied: identified and filled as quickly as When the considerable information possible? sought by this question is available, I Mr RIDGE replied: will write to the member and provide the details. As the information sought will take time to collate, the member will be informed by letter as early as possible.

HOUSING: LAND Acres Earmarked and Percentage of Funds Spent HOUSING 494. Mr BRIAN BURKE, to the Minister for Balga Housing: 491. Mr BRIAN BURKE, to the Minister for (1) How many acres of land are now held Housing: by the State Housing Commission and When is it planned that the area of land earmarked for future residential use? bounded by Beach Road, Princces (2) How has this stock varied in each of Road, Balga Avenue and Redelifte the past five years? Avenue will be developed by the State Housing Commission? (3) What percentage of the commission's budget was allocated to the purchase Mr RIDGE replied: of land, as described in (1) above, in Subdivisional development of the first each year referred to in (2) above? stage of this area is planned to be undertaken during the first half of the Mr RIDGE replied: 1979-80 financial year, with the bal- It will take some while to collate this .ance to follow as soon as possible there- i-tformation, which will be provided by after. letter when available. [Tuesday, 24th April, 1979169 699 WATER SUPPLIES: CATCHMENT AREA Mr YOUNG replied: Denmark River (1) Yes. 495. Mr STEPHENS, to the Minister represent- (2) It is recommended that the posters be ing. the Minister for Works: displayed in doctors' waiting rooms. (1) Has surveying been carried out in the (3) No. The Public Health Department is Mitchell River area between the Den- not aware of any general aver-p rescrip- mark road and a forestry track known lion of drugs which would warrant as Stais Road? particular concern. (2) Is it fact that this work is preparatory (4) The member's question makes an to selecting a dam site? assumption, and I would require evi- dence that the prescription of drugs (3) If "Yes" to (2), does this mean that which are not justifiable on medical consideration is being given to extend- grounds is a significant problem in ing the declared catchment areas as the Western Australia. said land is outside the Denmark River catchment? Mr O'CONNOR replied: (1) Na, but water samples are being col- lected where the Mitchell River crosses STOCK the Denmark-Mt. Barker road. Cattle: Tuberculosis and Brucellosis (2) No. 498. Mr GREWAR, to the Minister for Agri- (3) Not applicable. vulture: (1) What is the estimate of tuberculosis and brucellosis incidence in Western Aust- ralia's beef herd? (2) How do these figures compare with FUEL: PETROL those of five years ago? Price:- Increase (3) What is the estimate of cost of eradi- 496. Mr TONKIN, to the Minister for Con- cating these diseases from Western sumer Affairs: Australian herds? To what extent has the average price (4) How much money is now available in of petrol risen in the Perth metropolitan the cam pensation fund? area since last October, the rise being (5) What is the estimate of contribution of expressed in- producers and Government to the fund (a) money terms; in the years ahead? (b) percentage terms? (6) is it likely that surplus money from the Mr O'CONNOR replied: compensation fund could be employed The average price of petrol in the in a beef classification scheme, as would Perth metropolitan area has not been be permitted under the amendments to calculated or otherwise studied by my the Cattle Industry Compensation Act? officers. Mr OLD replied: (1) and (2) Properties in quarantine (excluding Kitmberley region) Tuberculosis Brucellosis HEALTH: DRUGS 1974 .... 27 395 1979 .. 12 68 Over-prescription Nate: The Kim berley region is free of 497. Mr TONKIN, to the Minister for Health: brucellosis but the incidence of tuber- (1) Has the Australian Medical Association culosis has not varied between 1974 produced posters warning against the and 1979, 0.1 per cent of careases over-prescribing of drugs by the nmedi- slaughtered showing evidence of this cal profession? disease. No differentiation is made in these (2) To whom is it intended that the posters statistics between dairy and beef herds. will be displayed? (3) Approximately $1.3 million annually (3) Is his department concerned at the for operational costs plus a variable over-prescription of drugs in Western amount for compensation. Brucellosis is Australia? not expected to be eradicated before (4) What does the Government plan to do 1984 and no firm time scale can be set to lessen the degree of prescription of for tuberculosis eradication in view of drugs which are not justifiable on medi- eradication difficulties under pastoral cal grounds? conditions. 700 700[ASSEMBLY]

(4) Operating account-$874 833.04 (3) Has the contractor any residual respon- Reserve account-3300 263.26 sibility in the provision of additional (5) It is estimated that the Government and reinforcement? producers will each contribute (4) What provisions are written into 'Mt. $236 000 to the compensation fund in Henry' bridge contract to make sure 1979-80. The future aanual contribu- chat no repetition of structural fault will tion to the fund will depend upon the exist? number of cattle marketed for slaughter. Mr RUSHTON replied: (1) There have been some bridges built (6) Compensation for disease wilt continue where performance has led to a restric- to be the priority use of money from tion on extra heavy loads. Generally the the fund, but the amendment will en- bridges concerned were not strengthi- able some money to be provided for ened as alternative routes were avail- research into cattle prpduction. I do able for extra heavy loads. not consider a case could be made to seek money from the fund for a beef (2) John Holland Constructions. classification scheme in view of the (3) No. considerable allocation from the Com- beef (4) The Mt. Henry bridge design has been monwealth to undertake State-wide proof checked by a consulting engineer. classification trials. Since the Shelley bridge was designed, there has been a change in the Aus- tralian bridge design standards which probably would have overcome the ABATTOIR: MIDLAND Sroblem. The new design standards Study ave been used in the design of the Mt. Henry bridge. 499. Mr H. D3. EVANS, to the Minister for Agriculture: (1) Has he received any requests for an examination of the needs and economies of maintaining a service abattoir at Midland, having regard to the short WATER SUPPLIES:- RATES term, mid-ternm and long term require- concessi.ons ments of the mneat industry and the State by an independent, authoritative 501. Mr H. D. EVANS, to the Minister repre- source? senting the Minister for Water Supplies: (2) If "Yes", from whom, and what reply (1) Do any firms or authorities in the was given? metropolitan area re.cive a concession on their water rates similar to that pro- (3) If "No" to (1) will he undertake to posed for Co-operative Bulk Handling have this done? in the amendment to the Bulk Handling Mr OLD replied: Act 1967-1976 currently before the (I) No such specific request has been Legislative Assembly? received. (2) It "Yes"- (2) Not applicable. (a) what firms or authorities receive such a concession; (3) The meat industry authority is currently undertaking, at my request, such an (b) what is the level of the concession assessment in consultation with the afforded in each case? Wesern Australian Meat Commission. Mr O'CONNOR replied: (I) No. (2) Not applicable. BRIDGES Shelley and Mi. Henry 500, Mr JAMIESON, to the Minister for Trans- port: CONSUMER AFFAIRS (1) With reference to question 272 of Tues- day, 10th April, 1979, could he indicate Building at Morley whether any other reinforced concrete 502. Mr TONK IN, to the Minister for Con- design type bridge built for the Main sumer Affairs: Roads Department has needed shoring With reference to a building built for up so soon after construction? H. W. Peet of 310 Beechhoro Road, (2) Who were the principal contractors who Morley, at Lot 414 Newby Street, Lan- built the bridge at Shelley? celin by Cunningham Constructions: ITuesday, 24th April, 19791 701 (1) Did a letter from the bureau ad- (3) There is no reference to Mr Fitz- dressed to Mr Peet and dated 21st hardinge or his agent on the November, 1978 state that the bureau's file. mortar was somewhat different (4) and (5) Not known. from that provided in the contract? (2) Is not the mortar a material par- (6) The only matter formally re- ticular in the contract? quested of the bureau concerned the examination of brickwork and (3) Did not John B, Pitzhardinge or timber. his agent state: (7) It is the opinion of the bureau's (a) prebends have not been con- Senior Technical Officer (Build- sistently filled and mortar has ing) that the bricklaying and fallen out of them or is loose; mortar is generally of an accept- (b) the sand has an unacceptable able standard but that some of the quantity of impurities such as perpendicular joints aid some of roots and twigs which miti- the bed joints had not been cor- gate against producing good rectly filled. In the formal com- mortar; plaint signed by Mr Peet he agreed (c) the specified proportion of 1:4 to abide by the technical officer's has not been used; decision and it is believed that fie (d) an attempt has been made to has now called for an independent cover the imperfections in the arbit ration presumably under the granolithic inside painting terms of the contract. which is unsatisfactory; (e)it is doubtful whether tiles would adhere satisfactorily RAILWAYS and the imperfections are so bad as to certainly show Sleepers through tiles after they have 503. Mr. DAVIES, to the. Minister for been laid and used? Traniport: (4) Did not Cockburn Cement Ltd. in (1) When was a contract let for the supply, a letter to Mr Peet and dated 26th installation and commissioning of a September, 1978 state that the dynamic testing system to test stress sand used in the mortar is a very velocity effects and o~her matters on dirty material containing much or- concrete rail sleepers (Sub contract to ganic material in the form of twigs contract No 1780)? and roots and that the natural dis- integration of these particles will (2) When were offers of tender sent to lend to mortar deterioration and prospective tenderers? subsequent re-pointing will be nec- (3) To whom were they sent? essary? (4) Which companies submitted tenders? (5) Was there a report from Building Development Laboratories Pty. (5) What was the original closing date for Ltd. dated 5th July, 1978 which the tenders? also was critical of the work? (6) Was an extension of time given? (6) Were plans altered without consul- (7) If "Yes" to (6), was an extension of tation resulting in the lowering of time given because tenderers claimed the carport roof by three feet and they had insufficient time to prepare in other changes not approved by their tenders? Mr ]Peet? (8) If "Yes" to (7), how many tenderers ('7) Considering the sub-standard na- madec this claim? ture of the work, why has the bureau not 'been able to provide (9) Were the tenders gazetted? greater assistance to Mr Peet? (10) What was the final closing date for the tenders? Mr O'CONNOR replied: (1) Yes, however, the writer of the (11) Who was awarded the contract? letter was relying on the only part (12) What was the successful tenderer's price, of the contract on the file, which and the prices of other tenderers? was a single page of the specifica- (13) Were unsuccessful tenderers advised ot tions. the successful tender price? (2) Not known. The mortar mix is (14) If "No" to (13), why not? not specified but the question of whether or not it is a material par- (15) (a) From which country was the ticular would have to be con- machinery purchased; and sidered in the context of the whole (b) which company is the maker of the contract. machinery? 702 702ASSEMBLY] (16) What preliminary investigations were (16) Preliminary investigations were car- carried out by Westrail employees prior tied out in conjunction with the Uni- to the letting of the contract? versity of Western Australia, Instron (17) Is the successful tenderer required to Pty, Ltd,, Gedge Systems Pty. Ltd. and carry out servicing of preventive main- Schenck, a leading componentry tenance? supplier. (18) Is the successful tenderer based in (17) to (20) No. Western Australia? (21) No-as. this is a legal contract between the parties concerned and is zherefore (19) Tf the successful tenderer is not based in Western Australia, has that tenderer confidential. let a sub-contract for servicing of pre- (22) The system is due to be installed at ventive maintenance, if required? Westrail's Midland workshops in June/ year. (20) Has the system been commissioned? July of this (23) Prospective tenderers were advised that (21) Will he table a copy of the tender? the site for installation would be within (22) Where is the system located? the Perth metropolitan area. (23) Were prospective tenderers advised (24) George Moss Pty. Ltd. where the system would be located? Reiter and Associates Pty. Ltd. (24) Which of the unsuccessful tenderers Heine Brothers (Australia) Pty. Ltd. were Western Australian based? Mr RUSHTON replied: (1) April, 1978. ABORIGINES: SWAN VALLEY (2) The 28th October, 1977. West Swan, Henley Brook, and Bolladura Sites (3) (a) George Moss Pty. Ltd.-Western 504. Mr SKIDMORE, to the Minister for Australia Community Welfare: (b) Reiter & Associates Pty. Ltd.- Western Australia In regard to the proposed sites for the Swan Valley (c) Scruttons Ply. Ltd.-New South settlement of Wales Aborigines, will he advise: (d) Gedge Systems Pty. Ltd.-Victoria (1) What was the' area of land that would have been set aside at (e) Instron Pty. Ltd.-Victoria Marshall Road for the Aboriginal (f) Mori Testing Machine Co-Japan community? (g) Automation Industries Pty. Ltd.- why Victoria (2) What was the specific reason the above site was rejected by the Wh Losenhausen Maschinnbu- Government? SGermany (3) What are the areas of the Henley 0i)Heine Brothers (Australia) Pty. Brook sites A, B, and C Ltd.-Western Australia respectively? (4) All with the exception of (f) and (h). (4) (a) Has he seen the state- (5) The 22nd December, 1977. ment attributed to Mr Robert Bropho regarding the Abo- (6) and (7) Yes. riginal opposition to the Hal- (8) One. ladura site; and (b) if so, am I factual in assuming (9) No. both through discussions with (tO) The 26th January, 1978. him and by virtue of questions asked last week on (I1) instron Pty. Ltd. who was the lowest this matter that the Govern- tenderer even including allowance for ment does not intend to use local preference. this site for the resettlement (12) $66 290-The prices offered by the of Aboriginals? unsuccessful tenderers are confidential Mr YOUNG replied: between Westrail- anid the companies concerned. (1) 20 hectares. (13) No. (2) This area was rejected by the regional open space management (14) This information should have been committee, Metropolitan Regional made available. Planning Authority as its use was in severe conflict with the objec- (15) (a) United Kingdom. tives for Whiteman Park and other (b) 'Instr on Pty. Ltd. adjacent land uses. [Tuesday, 24th April, 1979]10 703 (3) Site "A" 78 hectares-approx. officially or otherwise, of problems or Site "B" 16 hectares-approx. surveys relating to this land. Action will Site "C" 46 hectares--approx. be initiated to formalise the position in (4) (a) Yes. respect of the truncations. (b) No. I should like to add to that answer by saying that last Friday CONSUMER AFFATRS I invited a number of the leaders Consumer Products Advisory Committee of the various fringe dweller 506. Mr TONKIN, to the Minister for Con- groups to come to my office to sumer Affairs: discuss the future site which is referred to in the question. All (1) Who is represented on the Common- the leadens arrived, including Mr wealth/State consumer products advis- Eropho, who stayed a minute or ory committee and what interests do two only. He handed over a they represent? letter and then left. (2) Is this committee at present investigat- I should like to say that the other ing the safety standard of- leaders showed co-operation and (a) folding portable cots; said they would return to the (b) carry cots and stands; people they lead to put the pro- (c) children's swimming aids; positions I suggested to them in (d) sunglasses; respect of this potential site for (e) children's footwear; homeless Aborigines. Mr Bropho (W prams and pushchairs; made it clear he did not intend to do that. (g) recreational safety helmets; (h) toys; 6i) flammability of children's daywear; (j) children's playground equipment; (k baby pacifiers; LAND (1) pedal bicycles and reflectors? Morley (3) Has a report been presented on any of those articles? 505. Mr TONKIN, to the Minister representing the Minister for Lands: (4) (a) If so, upon which; and (1) Adverting to question 396 of 11th (b) what action has been taken? April, 1979, what is going to be done with the vacant Crown land referred Mr O'CONNOR replied: to? (1) The Commissioner for Consumer Af- (2) Is the Minister aware that there is a fairs (or his nominee) in each State and deal of concern over the problems Territory and representatives of the associated with the continued Commonwealth Department of Busi- ness and Consumer Affairs. Each repre- undeveloped state of the land? sents the interests of his respective (3) Will the Minister take action to find Minister. out about the surveys that have taken (2) All of th-e product types listed are to be place in relation to that land? examined by CSCPAC in 1979 except Mrs CRAIG replied: children's swimming aids and children's (I) to (3) The former road was closed at footwear. the shire council's request and the land The atention of CSCPAC members offered for purchase, at taxation valua- has been drawn to the area of child tion, to the shire council, which re- safety in recognition of the declaration solved not to purchase. At about the of 1979 as international Year of the same time truncations were offered, Child. each for $1, to neighbouring. land- (3) and (4) (a) Because of the timetable set holders in Lots 85 and 217, who made by the CSCPAC secretariat, Western no move to purchase. Australia has not yet submitted reports Inspection has shown that at present on these products. there is a concrete pedestrian way in existence for the full length of the (4) (b) Consumer product safety sandard; closed road and the neighbouring land- for pedal bicycles and reflectors annexed and were declared under Section 63AA holders mentioned have of the Trade Practices Act on fenced in the former truncations. The. 5th March, 1979. Complementary usage as a pedestrian way has caused indefinite deferral of earlier plans so regulations under the Consumer Affairs Act (WA) are being pre- sell the closed road as two residential pared by the Crown Law Depar'- lots. The department has no knowledge, ment. 704 704[ASSEMBLY]

HEALTH: MEDICAL PRACTITIONERS FUEL Itemised Accounts Petrol and Liquid Petroleum Gas 507. Mr TONKIN, to the Minister for Health: 510. Mr TONKIN, to the Minister for Fuel Has any consideration been gir.n to and Energy: making it obligatory for medical (1) What is the Government's policy with practitioners who do no: 'bulk bill' to re3pect to the encouragement of the use itemnise on each account the scheduled of liquid petroleum gas in motor fee so that patients will be aware of the vehicles? degree to which they are being over- charged? (2) What is the Government's policy with respect to the Australian Government's Mr YOUNG replied: stated aim to guarantee that the price The member should be aware that differential between motor spirit tax and considerations of this nature are en- LPG tax will remain as it is a, present? tirely a matter for tlhe Commonwealth Government. Mr MENSAROS replied: (I) The Government encourages the use of liquid petroleum gas in motor vehicles consistent with the availability of this EMPLOYMENT AND UNEMPLOYMENT fuel for such purposes. University Graduates (2) The Commonwealth Government has 508. Mr TONKIN, to the Minister for Labour given an undertaking that it will main- and Industry: tain an excise tax differential between LPG and motor spirit, not a price dif- To what extent is there unemployment fereniial. The Government supports in in Western Australia amongst university principle such an excise tax differential graduates? as a means of encouraging LPG use Mr O'CONNOR replied: particularly in those States where an The total number of new graduates over supply currently exists. from the University of Western Aus- tralia, Murdoch University, Western Australian Institute of Technology and FUEL: PETROL all teachers' colleges was 5 680 at the end of the 1977 academic year. 216 of Cerium Filter these graduates were unemployed in 511. Mr TONKCIN, to the Minister for Fuel and September, 1978, or 3.8 per cent. New Energy: graduates comprised 0.6 per cent of (1) Does the cerium filter developed by the to!al unemployed. Belgian FN Group increase by 20% Total new graduates unemployed at the distance travelled on a given 31st March, 1979, was 514. This com- quantity of pe~rol as claimed? prised 1.2 per cent of total unemployed. (2) Is the Government investigating such Source: Department of Employment claims which would have a considerable and Youth Affairs. impact upon scarce energy resources? Mr MENSAROS replied: ENERGY (1) and (2) 1 am not aware of the filter National Energy Conservation Publicity mentioned by the member, but will Campaign ascertain details and advise him sep- 509. Mr TONKIN, to the Minister for Fuel and arately. .The Government is keeping Energy; abreast of all such claims where they are likely to have a significant impact (1) Is the Government involved with the on oil consumption in particular. preliminary study for the national energy conservation publicity campaign? CONSUMER AFFAIRS: MOTOR (2) If so, what are the details? VEHICLES Mr MENSAROS replied: Defective (I) and (2) Yes. The campaign is being 512. Mr TONKIN, to the Minister for Con- co-ordinated through the Australian sumer Affairs: Minerals and Energy Council. The Government will be contributing its (1) Is there sufficient protection for the share of the funds required, estimated buyers of used motor vehicles who may to be about $100 000. The campaign inadvertently purchase vehicles which will be timed for October, 1979, to are the subject of recalls by the manu- coincide with the UN world wide con- facturer of the vehicle, or by the manu- servation week. facturer of some component? [Tuesday, 24th April, 19791 7050

(2) Is there any concern by the Consumer (2) Is he aware that in a reply dated 29th Affairs Bureau that such recalls may March, 1979, to a similar request from not cover all defective vehicles and/or me, the Minister stated that "there components? would be little adv'antage to be gained Mr O'CONNOR replied: through re-examination, or on-site and (2) The member's question is ob- visit", and that "there is no possibility viously prompted by the question asked of Stirling City's proposal proceeding on on the same subject by Senator Giet- the Waverley Street reserve"? zelt in the Senate on 22nd March. (3) If "Yes" to (1) and (2), in view of the As a result of that question, thc Min- possible contradiction involved, will he ister for Business and Consumer Af- clarify the situation regarding his fairs has referred the matter to the willingness to re-examine the proposal Commonwealth/State consumer pro- and to undertake an on-site inspection, ducts advisory committee for examina- especially in view of the fact that money tion and advice, allocated for the autumn centre is in All State and Commonwealth Con- danger of being re-allocated due to the sumer Affairs authorities have been lack of a suitable site? asked for comment by I11th May. (4) When can I expect an answer to my The Bureau of Consumer Affairs in this letter on this matter of 15th March, State is researching the matter at pre- 1979? sent. Sir CHARLES COURT replied: (1) I have given the Dianella autumn centre WAGES AND SALARIES committee no such advice. Payment by Cheque (2) The Minister for Lands has supplied me with a copy of his letter of the 29th 513. Mr TONKIN, to the Minister for Labour March. and Industry: (3) There is no contradiction. (1) Is the Government concerned that there may be insufficient protection afforded (4) 1 replied to your letter on the 3rd April. to employees who are paid by cheques which are subsequently dishonoured? (2) Is it the Government's policy to more closely approximate the protection HOUSING given in some other States? Karratha Mr O'CONNOR replied: 515. Mr DAVIES, to thc Minister for Industrial (1) The Truck Act of Western, Australia Development: provides for wages to be paid in money Who are the members of- and if the worker consents it can be (a) the town site committee for Kar- paid by cheque in accordance with ratha; section 9 of that Act. (b) the Planning and Co-ordinatinig (2) No greater protection seems to be af- Authority, referred to in his an- forded by other States. In New South swer to question 358 of 1979? Wales the Industrial Arbitration Act provides that the industrial registrar Mr MENSAROS replied: must also approve of agreement be- (a) The members of the townsites dev- tween parties to pay by cheque but this elopment committee are a nom- additional requirement may not be any inee of: more effective. In Western Australia, The Department of Industrial under the Truck Act, where a cheque Development, is dishonoured, a worker is entitled to recover from the employer reasonable The Under Treasurer, damages sustained in consequence of The Commissioner of Main the dishonour in addition to wages due. Roads, The Town Planning Commis- sioner, AGED PERSONS The Surveyor General, Autumn Centre Site: Diane Eta The Under Secretary for Lands, 514. Mr WILSON, to the Premier: The General Manager, State Housing (i) Can he confirm that he has advised the Commission, Dianella autumn centre committee that The Under Secretary for Works, he is willing to review the decision by The Commissioner, State the Minister for Lands not to allow Energy Commission, portion of reserve 29753 to be used The Department of Administra- for an autumn centre site? tive Services, 706 706ASSEMBLY]

The Australian Telecommuni- Distribution Costs: cations Commission, 1978. The Pilbara Regional Adminis- March quarter ... 315.20 trator, June quarter .. .. 381.78 Hamersley Iron Pty. Ltd., September quarter ... 1 258.82 December quarter 1.188.20 Shire of Roebourne; S (b) The members of the planning and (b) Purchase Cost .,. 15538.76 co-ordinating authority are; Distribution cost ... 3221.22 The Co-ordinator, Department Total Year *...... 18759.98 of Industrial Development. Note: When replying to question 371. Commissioner of Main Roads, the September quarter, 1978, distribu- Director General of Transport, tion cost was quoted at $737.17. This Town Planning Commissioner, was a typographical error. Director of Agriculture, (2) No formal contract was entered into. Director of Engineering, (3) The Department of Industrial Develop- The Under Treasurer, ment negotiates with Lipscombe and 'The Surveyor General, Associates to purchase bulk supplies of Director of Conservation and this particular publication on an issue Environment, by issue basis. General Manager, State Hous- (4) The 75.3c unit cost applies to the ing Commission, most recent issue-i.e. the March quar- ter, 1979, of which 6 000 copies were Under Secretary for Mines, purchased for $4 518.00, or 75.3c Commissioner, State Energy each. This cost compares favourably Commission. with departmental publications, and was considered to be a reasonable price INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT for a publication of this nature. "Western Australian Business Letter" (5) 4 295 copies were sent to contacts reg- istered in the department's direct mailing 516. Mr DAVIES, to the Minister for Tndustrial list. A further 770 copies were used to Development: meet established bulk requirements of (1) What was the total cost of purchase the department's regional, national and and distribution of Western Australian overseas offices and industrial organisa- Business Letter in- tions. The remaining 935 copies will (a) each of the first four quarters; be distributed to anticipated requests over the counter, by mail or telephone, (b) the whole year? to be used in the normal course of the (2) Was a contract let for the purchase of business of promoting the State, to a business newsletter to augment de- recipients whom-the department deems partmental information? beneficial to receive information mate- (3) If not, why not? rial about Western Australia. (4) If the Government is unaware of the (6) The newsletter is distributed to com- production costs per copy to Lipscombe panies and persons whom the depart- and Associates of the newsletter, on ment considers would benefit from such what basis was a decision made to pur- information and who would disseminate chase the newsletter at 75.3 cents per it in the interest of the State. copy? (7) This is a private publication, and the (5) How many of the last issues of Western department has no control over editor- Australian Business Newsletter were ial content. As in every normal com- sent as a result of a request for the mercial transaction, assessment is made newsletter? of quality and quantity of goods ordered prior to accepting delivery, payment to (6) How many were sent to persons who producer and ultimate distribution. bad not requested it? (7) What steps are taken to assess the ac- curacy and objectivity of comments in POLICE the newsletter? Computers Mr MENSAROS replied: 517. Mr DAVIES, to the Minister for Police (1) (a) Purchase Costs: and Traffic: 1978 $ Further to question 357 of 1979: March quarter .... 3 070.00 (1) How many firms were offered ten- June quarter ...... 3926.12 ders for the police computer? September quarter .... 3 928.85 December quarter .... 4613.79 (2) How many firms tendered? [Tuesday, 24th April, 19791 707

(3) Was the tender awarded to the (7 IThe evalution committee (see lowest price? answer to part (5) question 357). (4) If so, what was the lowest tender ( I) No. price and what were the other ten- (9I) To facilitate the evalution corn- der prices? mictee's inspection of the various (5) If "No" to (3), why not? companies' sites. (6) Will he table a copy of the tender 1 I)$23 253. document?(1 24 months. (7) Who chose the companies which(1 were to be selected for close evalu- 0 915 months. ation? (13 I)Yes. (8) Did both of the two companies pay full accommodation costs? (9) Why did the companies pay ac- :OMMuNITY WELFARE commodation costs? Int rrnationai Year af the Child (10) What is the current lease price per 518. MrI J)AVIES, to the Premier: month? 0 1) Over how many months has the (1) Further to question 355 of 1979, will leased?h e advise when details will be available equipment been fprojects chosen for funding for the (12) How tong has the computer been Iinternational Year of the Child? in operation? (2) )Atill he provide those details to me (13) Have any additions been made to 'hen they are available? the equipment since the tender was accepted? Sir C]HARLES COURT replied: Mr O'NEIL replied: (1) A.pplications for funding of projects as tender documents lose on the 11th May, 1979. Submis- (I) Not known, immediately were issued from the Tender Board s1ions will be considered of WA. hereafter. CS. (2) 10. (2) V (3) and (5) Yes. EDUCATION: SCHOOLS AND (4) (a) Purchase price- HIGH SCHOOLS (i) $584 740 plus $3 120 per month software. Greek Language (ii) $865 153 plus $61 500 519. Mir DAVIES, to the Minister for Educa- for software. tion: (iii) $980 811 including sof t- (1) Referring to part (3) of question 324 ware. of 1979, has his department conducted surveys in any Government schools or (iv) $985 125 including soft- elsewhere to see whether students are ware. interested in learning Greek? $t1959 (v) St 311 262 plus (2) If so, when and where? per month software. (3) Has his department made attempts to (vi) $755 944 plus $67 274 see whether teachers are available to for software. teach the Greek language? (vii) $678 678 plus $18 200 for software. (4) If "Yes" to (3), when and how? (5) What avenues exist for adults wishing to Installauon learn Greek through adult education Period Costs classes or elsewhere? t4) (b) FL--- or rented- 3 I . S18 8"5 per mont! &nce 12t ymr(Id yer $20413 which woncerned special equip- Mr P. V. JONES replied: 2350M ment...... 2 years 2. Si18756 pr month pius 3yer (I) Yes. S61 SOsoftiere ... Ser 172271 2. 525092 permonth . 5 yeas (2) In 1976 four metropolitan senior high 4., 23 2D2per month . Spyars 5. S1212D4per month . 4 years 11923 schools were surveyed to determine the 6. 1 25 472 per month 6 yearn 32600 number of students who wished to study 7. 32D0741per monih - years 565 721 Greek commencing at the year 9 level in 1977. (6) Yes. The paper was tabled (see paper No. 146). (3) Yes. 708 708[ASSEMBLY]

(4) Notices in the education circulars of LOCAL GOVERNMENT July 1977 and May 1978; and ques- Confidential Information tionnaires to all schools in August 1978. 522. Mr DAVIES, to the Minister for Urban Development and Town Planning: course (5) Greek is offered as a certificate (1) Referring to part (5) of question 340 and also as an adult education course of 1979, who autborised the release of through the Technical Education Direc- information to a land developer whilst torate of the Education Department. that information was confidential to Classical Greek is offered at the Uni- versity of Western Australia. local government councillors? (2) Was the release of that information in accordance with the Government's INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT: policy as announced by the Premier on DEPARTMENT 27th November, 1978? Townsite Committee: Dam pier/Karratha (3) What is the rationale for releasing in- Accommodation Plan Report formation to land developers whilst that 520. Mr DAVIES, to the Minister for Industrial information is confidential to local gov- Development: ernment councillors, who are unable to use it to protect their ratepayers' in- (1) Will he table a copy of the Department terests? of Industrial Development town site development committee's report on draft Mrs CRAIG replied: report entitled "Dampier/Karratha ac- (1) and (3) Information released from my commodation plan"? department was of a nature nornally (2) If "No" why not? given on request to any sector of the public. Mr MENSAROS replied: (2) Yes. (1) No. (2) The report is an internal one and in any event only preliminary at this stage.

GOVERNMENT REPORTS Release 521. Mr DAVIES, to the Minister for Educa- HOSPITAL tion: Queen Elizabeth II Medical Centr-e (1) Further to his letter to nmeof 29th May, 1978 in which he stated (with refer- 523. Mr HARMAN, to the Minister for Health: ence to Government reports released by (1) Are there pan-time pathologists em- him), that it was his practice that all ployed by the Queen Elizabeth 11 Medi- reports are made available on the day cal Centre? of release, will he advise why a report on the development of sport in Western (2) If "Yes" what are the hours worked Australia did not reach my office till per week and/or per month? the day after it was made available to (3) What is the gross amount paid per the media? month? (2) In view of his statement in his letter to (4) What are the other conditions of ser- me of 29th May, 2978-that his failure vice? to forward a copy to me of a report concerning education and the perform- Mr YOUNG replied: ing arts was unintentional and an over- (1) The Queen Elizabeth 1I Medical Centre sight, will he ensure that reports are is not an employing body but there is a released to mc at the same time as they part-time haemnatologist employed at are released to the media, in future? the Sir Charles Gairdner Hospital. Mir P. V. JONES replied: (2) The agreement stipulates eight sessions of 3* hours per week for non-insured (1) and (2) My letter of the 29th May, patients but, of course, the doctor con- 1978, advised that a copy of any report cerned works more hours than this. released by me would be made avail- able to the Leader of the Opposition (3) $2 047.20 per four week period. on the day of release. (4) The conditions of service are in accord- I am advised that a copy was delivered ance with the metropolitan teaching to Parliament House at 9.00 am on the hospitals salaries and conditions of se- same day the report became available. vice agreement. [Tuesday, 24th April, 1979]10 709

PORTS (b) Members of the anaesthetic mortality Air Search and Rescue Facilities committee are: Dr T. M. McAuliffe 524. Mr DAVIES, to the Deputy Premier: Dr W. D. Roberts Further to question 435 of 1979, do Dr A. M,! Forbes sea search rescue facilities exist at- Dr T. D. Bourke (a) Derby; Dr L. Feldman Associate Professor C. (b) Dampier; Michael (c) Port Hedland; Dr G. Gates (d) Carnarvon; Dr K Nyman (e) Geraldton; Mr B. A. R. Stokes (f) Busselton? Miss J. Davis Mr Dl. Cosgrove Mr O'NEIL replied: Professor 3. W. Paterson The formal reply to the question asked (2) 16th March, 1979 by the Leader of the Opposition is "Yes"; but I should like to add that that answer was implied in the question he referred to, so if he tells me exactly what he is getting at I will try to explain HEALTH more fully. Altcohol and Tobacco Products: Advertising 527. Mr WILSON, to the Minister for Health: EMERGENCY SERVICES AND CIVIL (1) Is his department concerned about the DEFENCE possible detrimental effect of the advertising of alcohol and tobacco Legislation products in Western Australia on the 525. Mr DAVIES, to the Deputy Premier: health of the community and of (1) What action is currently underway children and young people in towards introducing emergency services particular? and civil defence legislation into the (2) Can he say what the Government's Parliament? policy is with regard to the introduc- (2) Why has this legislation been delayed? tion of bans on the advertising of alcohol and tobacco products in Mr O'NEIL replied: Western Australia? (I) and (2) There has been no delay. The Mr YOUNG replied: matter is under active investigation. (0) The Government is concerned about the effect of the abuse of alcohol and tobacco products, but there is no direct HEALTH: ACI' evidence that their advertising is having Commnittees a detrimental effect on the health of 526. Mr DAVIES, to. the Minister for Health-, the community and of children and young people in particular. Referring to question 434 of 1979: (2) So long as the sale of alcohol and (1) Who are the members of- tobacco products is legal the Govern- (a) the pre-natal and infant ment does not intend to ban their mortality committee; advertising. The member will be aware (b) the anaesthetic mortality that both industries have accepted vol- committee? untary codes on advertising. (2) When were the appointments made? Mr YOUNG replied: RECREATION: SPORT (1) (a) Members of pre-natal and Alcohol and Tobacco Products: Advertising Wnant mortality committee 528. Mr WILSON, to the Minister for are: Recreation:, Professor J. D. Martin Dr L. J. Holman (1) Is he aware of a statement by Senator Dr A. Grauaug Baume, Chairman of the Senate Select Dr P. J. Pemberton Committee on Drugs and Alcohol, as Dr A. R. Burkitt reported in The West Australian of 19th Professor M. S. T. Hobbs March, 1979, that Australian sport was Dr S. Reid being bought "lock, stock and barrel Dr D. Watson by pushers of tobacco and alcohol"? Dr F. I. Stanley (2) If "Yes" does his department share the Miss Rosalind J. Denny Senator's view? 710 710(ASSEMBLY]

(3) What action is the Western Australian ing service overseas when, at the Government taking to curb the advertis- request of the Department of Foreign ing of alcohol and tobacco in associa- Affairs, he set up arnd conducted an lion with sport? international training programme for rural youth. replied: Mr P. V. JONES (2) Funds will be made available from the (1) Yes. Department for Youth, Sport and (2) The department is concerned that some Recreation, and will allow for consulta- sporting associations have found it nec- (ion with other States, and the employ- essary to associate themselves, by ac- ment of a research assistant for a 12 cepting sponsorship, with products that weeks' period. are considered to be harmful to health. (3) The Youth Needs and Public Policies The department, and its predecessor Report is one of a number of relevant the Community Recreation Council, reports from which information is being have for some years operated a policy drawn in preparation of the report, in which it will not be jointly associated however the current terms of reference in events, such as coaching schemes, show clear differences, and it is with tobacco companies. intended, in drawing from available (3) As well as the above policy, the Gov- published material and with input from ernment, through providing financial the States and Territories to produce a and administrative assistance to sports, forward-looking and practical docu- has endeavoured to lessen the need for ment. associations to rely upon funding from (4) The report is being prepared for con- sponsors who permit certain products. sideration by the Recreation Ministers' Council.

RECREATION Opportunities and Changing Work Patterns: Report EDUCATION: HIGH SCHOOLS 529. Mr WILSON, to the Minister for Hall-gymnasia Recreation: 530. Mr WILSON, to the Minister for (1) Can he name the departmental officer Education: who has been appointed to undertake (1) How many hall-gymnasia have been the national report on the relationship built for established high schools in the between recreation opportunities and past five years? changing work patterns and state his qualifications and experience? (2) Where were these facilities built and when? (2) What is the source of funding for the report and what expenditure has been (3) What is the Government's policy allowed for? regarding the provision of hall-gymnasia for existing high schools? (3) Is he aware-of the report "Youth Needs and Public Policies" prepared by the (4) What consideration has been given to Australian Council for Educational the need for a hall-gymnasium at flalga Research for the Victorian Department Senior High School, and what priority of Youth Sport and Recreation in 1976 has been established for the provision and will not the current exercise simply of such a facility at this school? be going over ground already covered Mr P. V. JONES replied: in that report? (1) 15. (4) Will the report be made available to the public? (2) I 974-Churchlands, Kent Street, Kwin- ana, Scarborough. Mr P. V. JONES replied: 1975-Cannington, Melville, Mirra- (1) The officer appointed is Mr D. K. Giles, books, Hamilton. ofiicer-in-charge of the youth services division of the Department for Youth, 1976-Geradton, Kalamunda. Sport and Recreation. Mr Giles has a 1977-John Forrest. Bachelor of Science Degree with I 979--Carnarvon, Kewdale, Merredin, honours from the University of Wes- tern Australia. In 1956 he was Narrogin. employed as a professional officer with (3) Within the limits of available funds, Junior Farmers and was made Director high schools without halls/gymnasia of the Movement in 1961. In 1976 he will be provided in time. Preference is was appointed to his present position. given to schools within areas where Mr Giles has had extensive experience local authorities assist. This assistance in youth and community work, includ- comes in the form of one third of the [Tuesday, 24th April, 19791 711

capital cost from each of the local auth- Mr YOUNG replied: ority, Education Department and De- Sport and Recrea- (1) A letter from the Commissioner of partment of Youth, Public Health to the Dean of the Faculty tion. of Medicine dated 15th December, (4) Balga Senior High School does have a 1978. hail facility of the older design and is (2) By "consistent lever' was meant gra- therefore considered to have a lower duating, as far as possible, the same priority than high schools without a number of students per annum and that hail or gymnasium of any kind. the number of students per year should be approximately 120. EDUCATION: HIGH SCHOOL (3) The question of the future numbers of Mirrabooka medical graduates was discussed at a Faculty of Medicine meeting on the 531. Mr WILSON, to the Minister for 30th January, 1979. No undertaking Education: has been given, but a working party is, (1) Can he explain the apparent contradic- at present, discussing the future em- tion between the answer he gave to ployment prospects of interns and qudstion 1077 of 1978, when he resident medical officers, and the Dean indicated that Mirrabooka Senior High of the Faculty of Medicine is a member. School was scheduled to be included in (4) Yes, the repairs and maintenance pro- gramme in 1979-80, and his answer (5) The State Government's views were to question 411 of 1979, in which he made known by my predecessor. declares that this school is not due for further work at present? (2) When, in fact, will the school be due to be included in the repairs and main- teniance programme? SEWERAGE Mr P. V. JONES replied:. Girrawheen (1) 1 am advised that cyclical maintcnance arises for consideration near the 533. Mr WILSON, to the Minister representing nominal due date, but work is listed the Minister for Water Supplies: on the draft submission only if war- (1) Further to the Minister's answer to ranted. question 140 of 1979, can he say whether any consideration is being (2) External repairs and renovations to this given to the installation of a reflex or school will be included in the 1980-81 one-way valve to prevent sewage back- repairs and renovations programme, but ing up and overflowing into the property commnencement will be spbject to the of Mr R_ Bracken at 2 Montrose Way, availability of funds. Girrawheen, as has occurred on three pr:evious occasions in the past two HEALTH: MEDICAL PRACTITIONERS years? Supply and Immigrants (2) If "Yes" can the Minister say when 532. Mr WILSON, to the Minister for Health: some such device is likely to be fitted? (t) What has been the nature of the Gov- Mr O'CONNOR replied: ernment 's representations to the (1) No. Avoidance, of the obstruction to University of Western Australia to flow is the only satisfactory solution. ensure that the number of doctors Regular inspections will be made more graduating each year is maintained at a frequently in this area. consistent level? (2) Not applicable. (2) Can he explain the use of the term ".consistent level" in his answer to question 420 of 1979? (3) What response has the Government received from the university to these representations and what undertaking, HEALTH if any, has been given? Community Centre: Mirrabooko (4) Is he aware of any moves by the Commonweakh Government to limit 534. Mr WILSON, to the Minister for Health:- the numbers of immigrant doctors? (I) Can he say whether any consideration (5) If he is concerned about the influx of is being given in forward planning to immigrant doctors, has he made his acquire land in the Mirrabooka town views known to the Federal Govern- centre (or the establishment of a com- ment? munity health centre? 712 712(ASSEMBLY]

(2) If "Yes" what priority is being given to SESOUICENTENNIAL CELEBRATIONS the establishment of a community health centre within the Mirrabooka complex Gold Medallions or its vicinity? 536. Mr WILSON, to the Minister representing the Minister responsible for the 150th Anni- Mr YOUNG replied- versary Celebrations: (1) Yes. (1) Can the Minister confirm that the price (2) The project has been given a relatively of the small gold 150th celebration high priority in the budget for proposed medallions has risen from $165 to $215 new initiatives for the 1979-80 com- in the short time that they have been munity health programme. available? (2) If "Yes" can the Minister say why this has been necessary when available stocks may have been minted and made available from gold at a lower price? G. WILLIAMS, D. WILLIAMS, AND A. WOOD (3) (a) Is it not a fact that the sipaller Charges and Penalties medallions were introduced for people who could not afford the 535. Mr WILSON to the Minister representing more expensive variety; and the Attorney Genera!: (b) if this is so, will the steep rise in (1) Can the Minister's department confirm price possibly deter people in this that Grant Williams, David Williams position from purchasing alto- and Amos Woods appeared bcfore a gether? Justice of the Peace in Tarnbeliup on 10th April, 1979 and were charged (4) Does his department approve of the with wilful damage and being on prem- possible hint of profiteering that this ises without lawful consent? steep price increase gives to the anni- (2) Can the Minister's department confirm versary celebrations? that, whereas David Williams, who was held to be primarily responsible for the Mr O'CONNOR replied: damage was fined $100, Grant Williams (1) Yes. was committed to be detained by the Department of Community Welfare un- (2) The original gold was purchased in til he is 18 (a period in excess of two February, 1978. The decision to mint years)?7 a further 3 000 small gold medallions was made in February this year. The (3) Did any of the three charged have legal 150th Anniversary Board could not representation? anticipate the popularity of the medal- lion. In addition, the State Treasury (4) if "No" to (3), is this normal practice? IDepartment could not advance un- limited amounts of money to the board (5) Was the Justice of the Peace concerned for the purchase of gold to mint medal- also the person responsible for appre- lions. hending the offenders? (3) (a) No. The silver and base metal (6) Were the premises concerned, in fact a ones were for this purpose. very old building, in a poor state of (b) Not known. repair at the local showground? (4) The increased selling price of the medal- (7) Does his department consider that there lion is a direct result of the increase was possibly a miscarriage of justice in in the price of gold since the original the Justice's treatment of Grant Wil- purchase of that metal and there is no Williams? hint of profiteering. (8) If "Yes" to (7), is he prepared to have the case reviewed? Mr O'NEIL replied: MINISTERS OF THE CROWN (1) to (8) Inquiries are being made into Motor Vehicles the matters raised by the member by the Attorney General and the Depart- 537. Mr WILSON, to the Deputy Premier: ment for Community Welfare. (1) Can he say how many motor vehicles As this case involves a minor it would are set aside for ministerial use? seem preferable for the Attorney (2) Can he also give details of the make General to write to the member regard- and year of each vehicle provided for ing the information he requires. such use? (Tuesday, 24th April, 1979J]1 713

Mr O'NEIL replied: GOVERNMENT CONTRACT (1) There are 13 motor vehicles allocated specifically for ministerial use--one per La Grange School Minister. 539. Mr DAVIES, to the Minister representing (2) All vehicles are Fords. the Minister for Works:, 1976-1. (1) Has a Public Works Department. con- 1977-6. tract (215656--La Grange primary 197"-. schoot replacement) been awarded to a 1979-2. Perth based company for $172 7603? (2) What is the name of the company? GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS (3) How many other firms tendered for the Buildings contract? 538. Mr DAVIES, to the Minister for Indust- (4) Did the Perth based firm, which was rial Development: awarded the contract, submit the lowest (1) Why do preferences for Government tender? tenders to local companies for building (5) Was a tender price of $172 775 sub- contracts only exist on contracts below mitted by Haroe building company? $20 000? (2) What considerations are given to local (6) Taking into account that the Haros builders when contracts are awarded in building company was eligible for a 3 % their regions and the contracts are over tender preference because it employs $20 0007 apprentices to tradesmen in the ratio of 5: 1, and because it is Pore Hedland based using entirely local labour, was Mr MENSAROS replied: consideration given to the Government's (1) The $20 000 limit on regional building policy of giving preference in Govern- contracts qualifying for Government ment contracts to locally based com- preference is currently under active panies when contracts are let within review. their region? In general, it is felt that for larger build- ing contracts local builders should be able to be competitive with builders Mr O'CONNOR replied: based outside their regions. In point (1) Yes. of fact, most Government building contracts (apart from major construc- (2) Readybuilt Accommodations (Aust.) tion works) in regional areas are let to Pty. Ltd. local builders. (3) Seven. To grant preference on larger building contracts would merely result in higher (4) and (5) Yet. costs, ensuring that less total work would flow from the limited budget (6) Readybuilt Accommodations (Aust.) available to Government for construc- Pty. Ltd was also eligible for the 3 tion work. per cent apprentice tender preference. Because of the value of the contract (2) No specific preference is available at and the distance between La Grange present; however, as indicated above, and the headquarters of the company, the matter is currently under active no other preference was applicable to review. Haroe building company.