Wednesday Volume 540 8 February 2012 No. 263

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 8 February 2012

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2012 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through The National Archives website at www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/information-management/our-services/parliamentary-licence-information.htm Enquiries to The National Archives, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 285 8 FEBRUARY 2012 286

Mr Maude: The reports produced by my hon. Friend’s House of Commons Committee are my regular reading, and I enjoy them enormously. I commend the Committee’s work, especially its conclusions on Government ICT. I also commend Wednesday 8 February 2012 the work of the Public Accounts Committee, which has focused on the subject. I think that we are making The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock progress, but I entirely accept my hon. Friend’s point: there is much, much more to be done. The previous Government left the taxpayer in hock to an oligopoly of PRAYERS ICT suppliers, and we intend to move on from that. Social Action Fund

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair] 2. Nicky Morgan (Loughborough) (Con): What criteria his Department uses to determine allocations made under the social action fund. [94021] Oral Answers to Questions The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Nick Hurd): The social action fund exists to scale up projects that have proved their ability to inspire people to take CABINET OFFICE social action. We recently announced the first investments for the fund, which are worth £9.4 million and have generated a further £9 million in match funding. We The Minister for the Cabinet Office was asked— believe that those combined investments will generate more than 200,000 volunteering opportunities. IT Procurement Nicky Morgan: A registered charity in my constituency, Fourtwelve Ministries, which runs the Carpenter’s Arms 1. Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): What recent residential rehabilitation centre and a food parcel handout progress he has made on bringing forward proposals service, was recently turned down for funding by the on Government IT procurement; and if he will make a Social Investment Business, which administers the social statement. [94020] action fund. One of the reasons given was that it was part of a Christian charity. Can the Minister assure me The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster that the Government fully recognise the role played by General (Mr Francis Maude): Soon after the coalition Christian groups in delivering social action projects? Government came to office, we introduced strict controls on ICT spend that saved £300 million in the year to Mr Hurd: Yes, I can, but I should clarify one point. March 2011 alone. We have opened up procurement to The charity was not turned down for the social action small and medium-sized enterprises, we are moving fund; it was turned down for another fund. towards open standards and interoperability, and we We all know from our constituencies that many churches are examining some of the incredibly expensive and and faith groups are very active in generating opportunities burdensome ICT contracts that we inherited from the for people to become involved and give time to help previous Government. others, and the social action fund is open to bids from faith groups that make social action possible. In the first Charlie Elphicke: Will the Minister tell us more about round we invested in the Cathedral Archer Project, a how open source, getting computers to talk to each Christian group in Sheffield that is enabling homeless other through common standards, and smarter procurement people to volunteer to help other homeless people. can help to save billions of pounds, secure better computers, and break up the IT cartel that was fostered under the Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co- previous Government? op): A recent report by the National Council for Voluntary Organisations showed that, according to the Government’s Mr Maude: It is becoming increasingly clear that the own figures, charities face cuts of over £900 million. Government have opportunities to handle their IT and Does the Minister agree that the £20 million managed increase their digital offering in transactional public by the social action fund is a drop in the ocean in services very differently from that which we inherited. It comparison with what charities need? is also becoming increasingly clear that it will be possible for both the quality of those public services and public Mr Hurd: Let me make two points. First, the sector interaction to be massively improved, at a fraction of would have faced cuts under any Administration, as the the cost incurred by the previous Government. leader of the Labour party has made clear. Secondly, the £20 million social action fund exists to do something Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): very specific. Its purpose is to scale up successful, Has my right hon. Friend had a chance to read the proven projects in order to inspire social action. latest report on IT procurement by the Select Committee on Public Administration, which includes the Government’s Big Society response to our original report? We commend the Minister for that response, but there is further progress to be 3. Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): How made. In particular, how will the Minister tackle the many big society projects were under way in the most cartel-like behaviour of the large prime contractors? recent period for which figures are available. [94023] 287 Oral Answers8 FEBRUARY 2012 Oral Answers 288

The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Mr Oliver Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab): The Minister Letwin): Our big society agenda involves putting power is a keen follower of my website, so he will know that I into the hands of individuals and communities, and it is support initiatives to build social capital in communities. emphatically not a programme driven from the centre When I visit voluntary groups, I am very struck by the of Government. I am happy to reassure my hon. Friend extent to which they have benefited from the future jobs that there is not an army of bureaucrats going around fund. From a big society point of view, was it not a counting big society projects; that would entirely defeat mistake, therefore, to abolish that fund? the purpose. Mr Letwin: I am indeed an avid follower of the hon. Mr Bone: I am grateful to the Minister for telling me Gentleman’s website, and a most interesting document that he has no idea—I appreciate that. it is, too. The fact is that, alas, the future jobs fund offered only a very temporary fix. By contrast, we are Big society projects have been one of the many successes trying to create a framework within which the voluntary of this Conservative-led Government. In my constituency community sector has long-term prospects that it can we have the Hope project, led by the superb Simon build on through achievement and by providing the Trundle, which is transforming one of the most deprived taxpayer with value for money. areas in the constituency. However, it is experiencing problems as local funding is cut, and it may even have to be closed. How can the big society initiative help it to Efficiency Savings obtain more funds? 4. Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/Co-op): What efficiency savings the Efficiency Mr Letwin: I am aware of the Hope project, which is and Reform Group has identified across central to be greatly commended, and I am happy to be able to Government. [94024] say to my hon. Friend that my hon. Friend the Member for Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner (Mr Hurd), the Minister for civil society, will meet him to discuss this. I The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster have a terrible feeling that my hon. Friend the Member General (Mr Francis Maude): We have made huge efficiency for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) might even succeed, savings in the spending we inherited from the previous because I did some research and discovered that he Government. In the 10 months to March 2011 we managed to get community first funding for two of the delivered £3.75 billion in savings by reducing waste. For wards in his constituency.I wish him luck in this endeavour, the first time, the savings were verified by the Public too. Accounts Committee and by the National Audit Office in its report last week, but this is only the start and further significant savings will derive from the Efficiency Lindsay Roy (Glenrothes) (Lab): Patrick Butler said and Reform Group’s programme of long-term, sustainable in The Guardian recently: reform. “For many in the charity world, the Big Society…has become a toxic sign of Government hypocrisy, broken promises and ineptitude”. Tom Greatrex: I thank the Minister for his reply. I am What are the Government doing to change that? a keen follower of his Department’s website and I noted that its jobs section last week advertised eight jobs with a salary of more than £100,000 before bonuses, perks Mr Letwin: I hope the hon. Gentleman and his hon. and who knows what tax arrangements. Will the Minister Friends will help me to do so, because distinguished explain how that fits with his freeze on non-essential members of his party totally back the big society, and non-front line jobs in the public sector, and at a including the former Foreign Secretary, the right hon. time when public sector workers are under increasing Member for South Shields (David Miliband), who tells pressure? him and his colleagues: “We should be for the Big Society.” Mr Maude: It is completely consistent with that, I therefore hope the hon. Gentleman will join me in because we need particular skills to drive out the waste putting across the idea that we should welcome the we inherited. Particularly, there is a need for commercial giving back of power to communities and individuals to and IT skills. While those skills exist in Government, we change their own lives for the better. do not have enough of them. Every single one of those external recruitments by the Cabinet Office will have been approved by me personally, and I make absolutely Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): One of the no apology at all for approving them. Where those skills ways the big society will succeed is through the dissemination are needed and a rigorous search has shown that they of successful projects, for which the big society awards are not available within Government, we will recruit were intended to be one of the vehicles. What progress from outside and we will pay people properly for work has been made with the awards? that is essential.

Mr Letwin: I am happy to be able to tell my hon. Jon Trickett (Hemsworth) (Lab): Is it not a fact that Friend that the big society awards are alive and well and the Minister’s Efficiency and Reform Group will achieve happening, with successive tranches of people coming no savings at all if the most senior officials in Government in to get them. The Prime Minister is hugely devoted to are distracted into chaotic breaches of the Cabinet this. It is important to recognise what communities and Office code of conduct? Will he confirm that the Cabinet community groups are doing the length and breadth of Secretary has now restored efficient Government by the land. launching an investigation into such destructive breaches 289 Oral Answers8 FEBRUARY 2012 Oral Answers 290 of the code as that reported in The Times yesterday of a Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con): The shadow senior No. 10 aide saying the Health Secretary should spokesman on London and the Olympics said that the be “taken out and shot”? big society “should be Labour territory”. Does my right hon. Friend agree with me that the whole point of the Mr Maude: Frankly, coming from the hon. big society is that it is not just for Labour but for Gentleman—the Parliamentary Private Secretary to the everyone? previous Prime Minister, who operated in a No. 10 that was widely reviled as a snake pit of back-biting and Mr Letwin: Yes, I thoroughly agree with my hon. anonymous briefings—that is pretty rich. Friend, and I should like to pray in aid the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Tristram Hunt), who said that the big society is Big Society “something that the Labour party should instinctively understand as part of its own DNA”. 5. Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): The former Foreign Secretary, the right hon. Member What the Government’s objectives are for the big for South Shields (David Miliband), told the Labour society initiative. [94025] party: “We shouldn’t be afraid of the Big Society; we should claim it 6. Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab): What the for our own”. Government’s objectives are for the big society I hope this can bring the whole House together. initiative. [94026] Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): If my right The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Mr Oliver hon. Friend wants to see the big society at work, may I Letwin): Our objectives are to build social capital by suggest that he look at the snow in winter clearance transferring powers to communities, opening up public initiatives of East Riding and North Lincolnshire councils? services and encouraging more social action. They have devolved money down to local communities, enabling them last weekend to sort out snow clearance Lilian Greenwood: Last year, the Prime Minister included in their own way, as they wished. community empowerment among his three big society aims, but this year the Communities Secretary has Mr Letwin: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and already been forced to write to the Conservative leader that is a classic example of what I see in my own of Nottingham county council following reports of constituency, in many other rural constituencies up and disproportionate cuts to the voluntary sector. Can the down the country and increasingly in the suburbs. People Minister tell me exactly how this Tory council’s decision are taking charge and making sure that they get what to cut voluntary sector funding by a huge 34% will they actually need delivered locally, by people who empower communities in our county? understand the local circumstances, and in many cases much more cheaply than was previously possible from the centre. Mr Letwin: The hon. Lady is absolutely right that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Communities Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op): Given and Local Government has written in extremely what is really happening, the objectives for the big uncompromising and tough terms to the county council society would appear to be huge funding and job cuts in question, reminding it that there is statutory guidance, across the third sector, charities walking away from the and that the proportion by which the voluntary and Work programme and health service mutuals not getting community sector is cut should be the same as the health service contracts. Given the lack of influence proportion by which the council’s own budgets are cut. that Cabinet Office Ministers clearly have across the I am delighted to pay tribute, unusually, to the hon. rest of Whitehall, is the Cabinet Office not now merely Lady’s own council, which, despite coming from a the place where the emperor’s new clothes get spun? different political party from mine, has actually followed that rule, cutting both by roughly similar proportions. Mr Letwin: Unfortunately, what the hon. Gentleman fails to reckon with is that not only this Government Jessica Morden: The Public Administration Committee but any Government currently trying to run the United report on the big society described it as lacking clarity Kingdom would be faced with the need to clear up the and leadership and ways of measuring progress. Why fiscal mess that he and his colleagues left this country does the Minister think this cross-party group is so in, and that certainly entails cuts. We are very clear critical of the big society idea? about that, and as matter of fact his own leader is now beginning to be clearer about that—although we are Mr Letwin: As a matter of fact, the Committee’s still not clear how clear he is. The fact is, therefore, that report is an admirable work that brings out extremely the voluntary and community sector does suffer some clearly the value of our big society agenda and urges us reduction in funding, but we are determined to create to push it further and faster, and we agree with that. vast new opportunities for that sector, so it can compete Actually, the evidence clearly shows that it is on the to provide public services effectively and for the sake of ground that people will measure success. When they see the taxpayer. more free schools educating their children better, mutuals Consultancy delivering better health care, and communities taking charge of their own neighbourhood planning and making 7. Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): their environment better, then we will know it is a How much his Department spent on consultancy in the success. last year for which figures are available. [94027] 291 Oral Answers8 FEBRUARY 2012 Oral Answers 292

The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster than chiding us for the progress that we are making why General (Mr Francis Maude): During 2010-11, the Cabinet does she not congratulate us on our progress and start Office spent just over £9 million on consultancy. The apologising for the mess her Government left behind? figure is down from £27.5 million in 2009-10, the last year of the previous Government. That is a reduction of Luciana Berger: Further to the Minister’s answer, the more than two thirds and we anticipate further reductions leader of one of the Government’s own working groups, in the current financial year. Across central Government, Mark Taylor, who is the chief executive officer of Sirius, expenditure was reduced from £1.234 billion in 2009-10 has said: to £361 million in the last financial year—that is a “There are SMEs being taken out of procurement, not put 71% reduction. into it.” He said that that is “simply not acceptable.” Are not Chi Onwurah: In August 2010, the most recent month Government policies, as Mr Taylor points out, making for which figures are available, the Cabinet Office spent it more difficult for SMEs to take part in Government almost £120,000 on consultants for advice on judicial procurement projects, rather than easier? reviews. Does the Minister agree that spending hundreds of thousands of pounds defending this Government’s Mr Maude: No, that is the reverse of the truth. The mistakes is not the best use of taxpayers’ money? arrangements we inherited made it incredibly difficult for SMEs to bid, because the procurement processes Mr Maude: The Government are obliged to protect were so bureaucratic, so clunky and so expensive, both what they do in the interests of the taxpayer. I draw the for the taxpayer and for bidders, that many SMEs and hon. Lady’s attention to the fact that spending on voluntary and community sector organisations were, in consultants was spiralling completely out of control effect, excluded. We are addressing that. There is more under the previous Government. That was providing to do, but I would be grateful for some support from the very bad value for the taxpayer and it was very demoralising hon. Lady’s side, particularly in encouraging Labour-led for mainstream civil servants, who felt that they were local authorities. undervalued by the previous Government, whose default setting when anything difficult came up was to hire Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire) (Con): My consultants. We will put our faith in the work that civil constituent, Mr Isham, who runs a business in Willington, servants do. [Interruption.] is also finding it difficult to break through the barriers to obtaining Government contracts. May I encourage Mr Speaker: Order. A large number of very noisy the Minister to come to South Derbyshire for a question private conversations are taking place in the Chamber, and answer session with local business people, so that even as I speak. Some involve very senior Members who they can learn at first hand from the master how to ought to know better. apply?

Public Procurement Mr Maude: I would obviously be delighted to meet my hon. Friend’s constituents, but I would urge them to 8. Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab): What look at the Contracts Finder website, where, for the first assessment he has made of the effects of changes to time, Government and public sector contracts are available public procurement on the ability of small and medium- for scrutiny. If they find that procurement is still being sized enterprises to secure contracts. [94028] done in the old-fashioned, outmoded way that we inherited from the Labour Government, they should phone our 9. Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): helpline and we will get on the case, as we have done in What recent assessment he has made of the many cases already, and put improvements in place. effectiveness of new suppliers to Government working groups in making it easier for small and medium-sized Gordon Birtwistle (Burnley) (LD): Manufacturing enterprises to bid for Government contracts. [94029] companies in my constituency are slowly dragging this country out of the mire in which it was left by the The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster previous Government. Will the Minister please advise General (Mr Francis Maude): We want 25% of the value my manufacturing companies how, other than by looking of Government contracts to be awarded to small and at the website, they can find out about getting on the list medium-sized enterprises, and we have made significant to provide the national Government with products? progress towards that. This has so far led to a more than doubling in the amount of direct spend awarded to Mr Maude: We inherited some very rigid arrangements SMEs in the first half of the current year. that militated against UK-based suppliers and at the same time provided very bad value for taxpayers. We Ann McKechin: The Minister will be aware that his are making reforms that make it easier for local businesses, own commercial representatives of SMEs have said that particularly manufacturing businesses, to compete it will take up to two years before SMEs stop being effectively, but I will happily consider the issue raised by excluded from Government contracts. Does he agree my hon. Friend. that that is utterly unacceptable? What is he going to do to make better use of EU exemptions that protect local Michael Dugher (Barnsley East) (Lab): The Government economies? promised that 25% of Government contracts would be awarded to small and medium-sized enterprises, yet Mr Maude: I fully accept that it will take a little time figures on the Minister’s departmental website show to get things fully sorted out following the mess left that the percentage of procurement spend with SMEs at after 13 years of the hon. Lady’s Government, so rather the Cabinet Office has fallen from just under 11% to 293 Oral Answers8 FEBRUARY 2012 Oral Answers 294

7%, a decline replicated across Whitehall. At a time quicker and better procurement processes, but we have when net lending to SMEs is falling and the number of a legacy of huge contracts with that oligopoly of suppliers companies going under is increasing, why are things and are looking at how we can deal with that. getting worse, not better, for small businesses on his watch? T8. [94042] Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): Europe’s most energy efficient data centre was recently opened Mr Maude: It is simply not the case that things are by Ark Continuity near Corsham on the edge of my getting worse. The value of contracts being given to constituency, providing resilient top-tier security SMEs is rising and rising markedly from the very low infrastructure. Given the Minister’s interest in improving base that we inherited. The other issue that we have had public sector information, communications and technology, to deal with is the fact that the quality of information can I interest him in joining me on a site visit to see that left by the previous Government was deplorable. world-leading technology for himself?

Topical Questions Mr Maude: I would be delighted to visit my hon. Friend’s constituency and that installation. There are T1. [94035] Julie Elliott (Sunderland Central) (Lab): If now ways of providing much better ICT at a much he will make a statement on his departmental lower cost and in a much greener way. We are exploring responsibilities. all of them and I would be delighted to share our thinking with my hon. Friend—[Interruption.] The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (Mr Francis Maude): My responsibilities are Mr Speaker: Order. There is far too much noise. We for the public sector, the Efficiency and Reform Group, can scarcely hear the Minister’s answers, which is unfair civil service issues, industrial relations strategy in the on the Minister and unfair on the House. public sector, Government transparency, civil contingencies, civil society and cyber-security. T4. [94038] Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): Sixty per cent. of Welsh Government public Julie Elliott: Will the Minister explain how the procurement contracts are awarded to SMEs, half of Government’s action in allowing the chief executive of which are in Wales. In England the figure is less than the Student Loans Company not to pay tax or national 10%. Given that SMEs invest more in local jobs, pay insurance on his £182,000 salary is in line with his more tax and create more growth, what is the Minister own Government’s report, “Tackling Debt Owed to doing to ensure that SMEs get business in England, Central Government”? Does the Minister agree that instead of the money being siphoned off abroad? this Government have one rule for the rich and another for everyone else? Mr Maude: We are radically reforming procurement to cut the cost to businesses. Bidding for public sector Mr Maude: The answer is that that is not consistent contracts has been far too expensive, both for the taxpayer and it is being dealt with. and for bidders, and it is entirely right to say that too many SMEs have simply been frozen out of the process. T2. [94036] Stephen Barclay (North East Cambridgeshire) We are determined to open that up and to enable more (Con): In reply to a question I tabled last July, my right SMEs, which will tend to be UK-based, to bid successfully. hon. Friend emphasised the importance of reforming the civil service appraisal system. Will he update the T9. [94043] Amber Rudd (Hastings and Rye) (Con): I House on what changes have been made? welcome the Minister’s wise decision to accept a bid from the Hastings Trust and other charities to the Mr Maude: We have already put in place new social action fund to build community volunteers and arrangements for the senior civil service and they will be to promote the big society in Hastings. May I urge him rolled out for the whole civil service at the delegated to visit us in Hastings, to see the good work that is grades. It is really important that appraisal identifies being done? the very best performers, rewarding them with promotion and proper pay, and pays serious attention to those who Mr Maude: The allure of a visit to my hon. Friend’s underperform, who cause massive demoralisation to constituency is hard to resist. I can undertake that I or the hard-working majority of dedicated civil servants. my hon. Friend the Member for Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner (Mr Hurd), the Minister for civil society, T3. [94037] Graeme Morrice (Livingston) (Lab): Given will fulfil that engagement. the fact that the report of the Public Administration Committee, “A Recipe For Rip-Offs”, has recommended that owing to allegations of anti-competitiveness and collusive behaviour by some large IT suppliers, the PRIME MINISTER Government should establish an independent and external investigation into those claims, will the Minister agree to implement the recommendations and set up an The Prime Minister was asked— investigation into the oligopoly of large suppliers? Engagements Mr Maude: The hon. Gentleman is completely correct that an oligopoly of IT suppliers has, to far too great an Q1. [93967] Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): extent, dominated Government ICT contracts. We seek If he will list his official engagements for Wednesday to change that by having smaller contracts and much 8 February. 295 Oral Answers8 FEBRUARY 2012 Oral Answers 296

The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): Before I list On the day the Prime Minister completed his NHS my engagements, I am sure the whole House will wish listening exercise, he said: to join me in paying tribute to Her Majesty the Queen— “some of the people who worked in our NHS were sceptical of [HON.MEMBERS: “Hear, hear.”]—in this historic week our changes. Today, we are taking people with us. It’s in this spirit marking the 60th anniversary of her accession to the of unity that we want to continue.” throne. Her Majesty’s 60 years of remarkable leadership Why does he think he has failed? and dedicated public service are an inspiration to us all and something that the whole country and the whole The Prime Minister: Today, 95% of the country is Commonwealth can be immensely proud of. Members covered by general practitioners who are not actually will have the opportunity to pay individual tributes supporting our reforms; they are implementing them. during debate on the humble address on 7 March. Just today—[Interruption.] This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues Mr Speaker: Order. The House must calm down. and others. In addition to my duties in the House, I There is a long way to go, so let us hear the answers. shall have further such meetings later today. There will be plenty of time. Calm. Mr Slaughter: I am sure the whole House, and not The Prime Minister: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Just least myself, will wish to join the Prime Minister in his today, 50 foundation trusts have written to the newspapers warm tribute to Her Majesty. [HON.MEMBERS: “Hear, in support of our reforms and objecting to what Labour hear.”] is proposing, and the signature at the top of the list, In March last year the Prime Minister said: which the right hon. Gentleman might not have noticed, “There is no reason for there to be fewer front-line police is that of one Anne Campbell, the former Labour MP officers.”—[Official Report, 30 March 2011; Vol. 526, c. 335.] for Cambridge. She, running her local foundation trust, Will he confirm that front-line officer numbers have supports the reforms. That is what happens: Labour been cut in 40 out of 43 police forces? MPs leave this House and start implementing coalition policy. The Prime Minister: The proportion of officers on Edward Miliband: Even the right hon. Gentleman the front line is up, and I am sure the hon. Gentleman does not believe that nonsense he just came out with. will want to join me in congratulating Mayor Boris Last Friday the Royal College of General Practitioners Johnson on his excellent record on crime in our capital. said that his health Bill would Total crime is down, violent crime is down on buses and “cause irreparable damage to patient care and jeopardise the tubes, 11,000 knives and guns have been taken off our NHS.” streets, and there are 1,000 more officers on the streets [Interruption.] The Health Secretary is shouting from a of London at the end of his term than at the beginning. sedentary position—from some distance away, I notice. That, together with his reminder of the rule on the It is nice to see him here. The Prime Minister says that dangers of tweeting, is a good start to the day. he wants the voice of doctors to be heard in the NHS. Why does he not listen to them? Mr David Amess (Southend West) (Con): Does my right hon. Friend share my disappointment at the overthrow The Prime Minister: It is always good to get a lecture yesterday of the first democratically elected President on happy families from the right hon. Gentleman. I of the Maldives in a coup d’état? Given our historical care passionately about our NHS, not least because of links with the islands, will the Government, by way of a what it has done for my family and because of the message, do all they can to ensure that no violence amazing service I have received. I want to see that results and that the democratic institutions remain? excellent service implemented for everyone, and that means two things: we have to put more money into the The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is right. This NHS, which we are doing, but we also have to reform country does have strong links with the Maldives and a the NHS. He used to be in favour of reform. Let me good relationship with President Nasheed, but we have read him something. Who said: to be clear. President Nasheed has resigned, and we “to safeguard the NHS in tougher fiscal times, we need sustained have a strong interest in the well-being of several thousand reform.”? British tourists and in a stable and democratic Government That was in the Labour manifesto at the last election. in the Maldives. Our high commissioner is in the capital Because the NHS is important, we are committed to now and meeting all the political leaders. We call on the £12.5 billion in this Parliament, yet his health spokesman, new Government to demonstrate their respect for the who is sitting right there, said that it would be rights of all political parties and their members, and to “irresponsible” to spend more money on the NHS. The ensure that the constitution is upheld. We advise British Opposition are not in favour of the money. They are tourists to avoid non-essential travel to Malé island, not in favour of the reform. They are just a bunch of and those using Malé airport and the tourist resorts opportunists. should exercise caution. Edward Miliband: Isn’t this interesting? The Prime Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab): I join the Minister says that this is all about reform, but the Tory Prime Minister in paying tribute to Her Majesty the Reform Group has come out against these proposals. It Queen as we celebrate her diamond jubilee. Her dedication comes to something when even the Tories do not trust to the country and to public service is an inspiration the Tories on the NHS. Let us hear what Clare Gerada, and an example to us all, and we all look forward to the chair of the Royal College of General Practitioners— official celebrations later this year, which will enable us [HON.MEMBERS: “Oh!”] So when the people Government to celebrate both Her Majesty and our country. Members want to put at the heart of the NHS say 297 Oral Answers8 FEBRUARY 2012 Oral Answers 298 things about their Bill, they just groan. That says it all But everyone will have heard a Prime Minister unable about those on the Government Benches. Clare Gerada to defend the promise that he made: the promise of no said: more top-down reorganisation—a Prime Minister who “This bill is a burden. It makes no sense, it is incoherent… It has broken his word. The reality is this: all his attention won’t deal with the big issues… and it will also result in a health is on this pointless, top-down reorganisation, and the service that certainly will never match the health service that we… front line is suffering: the number of people waiting had 12 months ago.” more than 18 weeks—up, under him; A and E targets Which part of that does the right hon. Gentleman not being missed; cancelled operations. Why will he not just understand? give up, stop wasting billions and drop his Bill? The Prime Minister: Let us look at what has happened to the NHS over the past 18 months—[Interruption.] The Prime Minister: If the Opposition’s record was so Yes, let us look at the figures: 100,000 more patients good, why were they thrown out at the last election? treated every month; 4,000 extra doctors since the election; Now, let me just—[Interruption.] Let me— the number of clinical staff up; the level of hospital-acquired [Interruption.] infections down; the number of people who are in mixed-sex wards down by 94%. That is what is happening, Mr Speaker: Order. I am worried about Opposition because there is a combination of money going in and Members. They must calm themselves and do so straight reform. away. Now, we know what happens if we do not put in the money and do not undertake the reform, because there is one part of the NHS which is run by Labour, and that The Prime Minister: Let me remind the right hon. is in Wales. Let us have a look at what is happening to Gentleman of the clear test that he set for the reforms the NHS in Wales. Labour has cut the money, and one and for the Government. He said that the test was third of people are waiting longer than 18 weeks. That whether waiting times and waiting lists would come is what is happening in Labour’s NHS, and if we did not down. Let me now give him the figures: in-patient put the money in and did not have the reform, it would waiting times, down; out-patient waiting times, down; happen right here, too. the number of people waiting more than a year, down to its lowest ever level; the number of people waiting for Edward Miliband: I am not surprised that the right six months, down to its lowest ever level; and, indeed, hon. Gentleman is getting so agitated, because he thought the number of people on the waiting list—what he said that the NHS was his way to modernise the Conservative was the clear test—is down. This is what it proves about party, and I am afraid that it is coming apart. I will tell the Labour leader: even when he moves the goalposts, him why: it is because the promises he made before the he can’t put it in the back of the net. election are coming back to haunt him. We all remember the promise of no more top-down reorganisation. Now Edward Miliband: The person who is moving the he says that he knows better than the doctors, better goalposts is the Prime Minister. The reality is that than the nurses, better than the midwives and better the key test that was set for the health service was the than the patients associations—people who day in, day number of people waiting more than 18 weeks, and that out rely on and devote their lives to the health service. number is up 43% since the general election. However This is a matter of trust in the Prime Minister. Can he much he twists and turns, that is the reality. honestly look people in the health service in the eye and say that he has kept his promise of no more top-down In his heart of hearts, the Prime Minister knows that reorganisation? the Bill is a complete disaster. That is why his aides are saying that the Health Secretary should be taken out The Prime Minister: What we are doing is cutting the and shot, because they know it is a disaster. The reality bureaucracy in the NHS. We are taking out £4.5 billion about the Bill is this: the doctors know that it is bad for of bureaucracy which will be ploughed into patient the NHS; the nurses know that it is bad for the NHS; care. If you don’t support the reform, you won’t see that and patients know that it is bad for the NHS. Every day money go into operations, doctors, nurses, hospitals, the Prime Minister fights for the Bill, every day trust in health care assistants. That is what is actually happening him on the NHS ebbs away and every day it becomes in the NHS, but there is one group of people I will not clearer that the health service is not safe in his hands. listen to, and that is the people who ran the NHS under Labour. This is what they did: £6 billion wasted on the The Prime Minister: Let me tell the right hon. Gentleman NHS computer; £250 million spent on private sector that the career prospects of my right hon. Friend the operations that were never carried out. We still have Health Secretary are a lot better than his. That is what private finance initiative agreements whereby we pay this is about. This is not a campaign to save the NHS; £300 every time someone changes a light bulb. That is this is a campaign to try to save the right hon. Gentleman’s what we got from Labour. We are putting the money in, leadership. I make this prediction: the NHS will go on we are putting the reform in, the number of operations getting better and his prospects will go on getting worse. is up, the waiting times are down, the NHS is improving, and that is the way it is going to stay. Gordon Birtwistle (Burnley) (LD): When the Work Edward Miliband: I shall tell the right hon. Gentleman programme was introduced in Burnley in October 2010, about our record on the NHS: the shortest waiting 66% of people there were economically active; since times in NHS history; more doctors and nurses than then, the figure has climbed to 75%. Would the Prime ever before; the highest level of patient satisfaction ever Minister like to congratulate the people of Burnley—and in the health service. in particular, Vedas Recruitment—for that success? 299 Oral Answers8 FEBRUARY 2012 Oral Answers 300

The Prime Minister: I certainly join my hon. Friend The Prime Minister: The situation with Abu Qatada in congratulating not only the people in Burnley but the is completely unacceptable. As I said when I went to people conducting the Work programme and our welfare Strasbourg to make a speech to the Council of Europe reforms. What we are seeing is more people becoming about this issue, it is not acceptable that we end up with able to work and therefore able to enter the work force a situation where we cannot try, detain or deport someone and raise not only the country’s living standards but in our country who threatens to do us harm. That is their own, too. why the Government will do everything they can, working with our Jordanian friends and allies, to make sure that he can be deported. Again, instead of the hon. Gentleman Q2. [93968] Mark Hendrick (Preston) (Lab/Co-op): sniping about this, the whole House ought to unite to The people of Preston are furious that the Indian help sort this out. Government have selected a French company as their preferred bidder for the Indian air force jet contract. The Prime Minister repeatedly talks about rebalancing Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): As recently the British economy, but this is a major blow to as last September, only a tiny handful of the 165 acute manufacturing in this country. Other European leaders mental health adult in-patient beds in Hampshire were go to help their companies get major contracts. Why is vacant, yet the trust concerned proposes to cut those this weak Prime Minister not doing that and why have 165 beds to 107, replacing them with something called a we not got the contract with the Indian Government? hospital at home, or a virtual ward. Given my belief that the statistics on which that decision is based are inconsistent and unreliable, will the Prime Minister The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman ought to support my call for independent experts from the Audit think about the fact that all European leaders are Commission to look at those figures before those beds backing the Eurofighter project—it is a German project, are closed? an Italian project, a Spanish project and a British project, and that is how it should be. I am very disappointed The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes an important by what has happened in India, but Eurofighter is not point. Of course, we are putting extra resources into the out of the contest and we need to re-engage as hard as NHS, but there needs to be a clear series of tests—as we can to make sure that we get the best deal for all there is now under our plans—before any facilities are those workers in Britain who make Eurofighters. changed or closed. That is about ensuring that there is [Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman is shouting from a GP backing for what is proposed, and ensuring that any sedentary position, but this is something that ought to such changes will improve the health of the area. I will unite parties in this House—getting behind our great happily look at the issue that my hon. Friend raises, and defence producers. ensure that the Department of Health engages on it with him. Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con): In order that a constituent of mine could access the drugs and Q4. [93970] Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston) treatment that she was entitled to under the NHS (Lab): Four police authorities, including one that I constitution, her GP, her consultant, her specialist share with the Chancellor, have just started buying oncologist, the Secretary of State for Health and I had Hyundai cars imported from Korea. Add to that the to write a total of 70 appeal letters. When will health Thameslink fiasco and that of the Olympic tickets— care professionals be able to decide what treatments when will we see some leadership from the Prime their patients get? Minister on public procurement in this country? The Prime Minister: The most important thing in The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend raises an important police procurement is that police forces get together and point. Since the introduction of the cancer drugs fund procure together to cut their costs. We have all lost under this Government, 10,000 more people have been count of the times spent wandering through police able to get cancer drugs, which are so essential. Let me stations and seeing countless different types of vehicle, tell the House one thing that would really damage all costing a large amount of money. What the public cancer treatment in this country—it is the proposal want is police on the streets, not money spent on from the Labour party to cap at 5% any private sector unnecessary procurement. involvement in our hospitals. The Royal Marsden, one of the best cancer hospitals in the country, would have Q5. [93971] Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): The to cut by a quarter the services that it delivers. What a Prime Minister will have seen this morning’s Defence crazy, left-wing plan, which only the Leader of the Committee report on Libya. What steps is he taking to Opposition could come up with. ensure that the UK will be fully able to evacuate all UK nationals from conflict zones, and reduce our reliance Q3. [93969] Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): on civil charter aircraft? In three months’ time, just before the Olympics, Abu Qatada, a truly dangerous man, will be roaming the The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend raises an important streets of London with his mobile phone and internet point. I think that the Libya evacuation, and other access, thanks to the Prime Minister’s having abolished potential evacuations in a dangerous and unstable world, control orders and house arrest provisions. How can have brought home to us the importance of having the Prime Minister justify putting the public’s right to transport aircraft in the Ministry of Defence and the life at risk to give over to the Liberal Democrats on RAF. I can announce today that because the MOD’s their demands to abolish control orders? It is finances are now better run and better managed, and disgusting. because we have found savings, we will be able to 301 Oral Answers8 FEBRUARY 2012 Oral Answers 302 purchase an additional C-17 for the RAF. This aircraft that judgment. This guy should have been deported is becoming an absolutely brilliant workhorse for the years ago. Nevertheless, if we can get that agreement RAF, bringing men and material into a war zone such with Jordan, he can be on his way. as Afghanistan, and evacuating civilians in times of need. It is an important investment for the country, and Q8. [93974] Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): I am glad to announce that we can make it today. Complex employment law makes small businesses nervous about hiring new staff. Does the Prime Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): May I Minister agree that we need a simpler alternative for first associate myself with the tributes to Her Majesty our smallest firms on dismissal rules? the Queen? Yesterday, the all-party independent group on stalking The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is right to raise published its report. The Prime Minister knows of my this issue. If every small business in the country hired an interest in that subject, and the Government consultation additional worker, that would go a long way to curing concluded yesterday. Will he please meet me and a small both long-term youth unemployment and total group of members of that all-party group to discuss the unemployment at one stroke. We have got to make it urgent need for a stalking law? easier for businesses to take people on. One of the key considerations for businesses is how difficult it is to let The Prime Minister: We take this issue seriously, and someone go if it does not work out. That is why I would be happy to meet with the right hon. Gentleman extending to two years the amount of time that someone and discuss it. I know that he has had conversations has to work before they get access to a tribunal will with the Home Office. We all want to get the issue right, make a real difference in small business employment. and if there is a need for legislative changes, there may well be opportunities in the next Session for that sort of Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab): We criminal justice legislation. I will happily meet the right have heard from the Prime Minister how the Italian and hon. Gentleman and talk with him about it. German Governments are out there fighting for British jobs. Will he tell us exactly how many phone conversations Q6. [93972] David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con): During he had directly with the Indian Prime Minister about apprenticeship week I am proud to highlight the fact the Typhoon bid, and when the last conversation took that Macclesfield college has increased its number of place? apprenticeships from nine to 160 over the past three years, and that the Government have increased the The Prime Minister: I raised this issue with the Indian number of apprenticeships by 177,000 in the past year Prime Minister repeatedly on my visit to India, and alone. Does my right hon. Friend agree that achievements indeed at the G20 in Cannes, but let me remind the hon. such as those illustrate the importance of apprenticeships, Lady of one important fact. When I loaded up an and the commitment that is required to give them the aeroplane with British business people, including from focus, attention and recognition that they deserve? businesses like Rolls-Royce, and took them around the Gulf to sell our defence equipment, who was it that The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is entirely right. attacked me? Who was it that put out press releases? One of the most important investments that we can Who is it that does not stand up for British industry, make in the future industrial base of this country and in British defence companies and British jobs? It is Labour. helping young people is in apprenticeships. The number of apprenticeships has increased by a staggering 60% over Q9. [93975] Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): On Monday the past year, and 457,000 people are starting I visited the offices of the Bucks Free Press to hear what apprenticeships. In apprenticeship week, it is important my constituents have been saying about proposed changes to stress what we are doing to get over the objections to health services at Wycombe hospital. I can tell the that people have had in the past, and to ensure that Prime Minister that Labour’s tragic legacy in my apprenticeships are more easily taken up by small businesses constituency is distrust and despair. Does he agree with through the payment of a simple fee. We must ensure me that the right way to deliver local accountability in that we have more higher-level apprenticeships to show health care in our constituencies is clinical commissioning that apprenticeships are every bit as good as having a and foundation trust status? university degree, and often involve a university degree. We must also cut bureaucracy by allowing big businesses The Prime Minister: I think my hon. Friend is entirely to run apprenticeship schemes themselves, rather than right. The whole point of the reforms is to put the doing it via a training provider. All those things will power in the hands of local doctors, so that they make make a big difference. decisions on behalf of patients and based on what is good for health care in their local area. We may well Q7. [93973] Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): find that the community hospitals that were repeatedly Why have the Government not lodged an appeal undermined by Labour will actually get a great boost, against the Abu Qatada judgment? Aren’t you being because local people and local doctors want to see them dangerously complacent, Prime Minister? succeed. That is what our reforms are all about.

The Prime Minister: We are doing everything we can Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab): to get this man out of the country. The absolutely key The PIP implant saga has left 40,000 women sick with thing is to get an agreement with Jordan about the way anxiety because of faulty medical products, and now he will be treated, because the European Court of they are being failed by private clinics and by an NHS Human Rights has made a very clear judgment. I that is dithering about what to do with them. In this happen to think it is the wrong judgment, and I regret saga we can see the future of a privatised NHS, so will 303 Oral Answers8 FEBRUARY 2012 Oral Answers 304 the Prime Minister pledge to support those women in Q12. [93979] Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): the NHS now and claim against the clinics later, and Last Wednesday, the Commons rejected the Lords will he drop the Health and Social Care Bill so that we attempt to wreck the Welfare Reform Bill. On seven do not have this happening again across the NHS? occasions, the Commons voted. The Prime Minister and Deputy Prime Minister voted, but the Minister of The Prime Minister: Let me take the hon. Lady’s State, Department for Education, the hon. Member for question in two halves. She is entirely right about the Brent Central (Sarah Teather), who has responsibility scandal of the PIP implants. The Government have for children, refused to support the Government and made it absolutely clear that we will offer every one of has spoken against the policy. On occasion, I have those women a free consultation and ensure that we do spoken against the Government and not supported everything we can on the NHS to help them. It is an them, but I am not a Government Minister. Why is she absolute scandal, and the private clinics that carried out still a Government Minister? [Interruption.] those operations should feel the maximum pressure to undo the harm that they have done. Mr Speaker: Order. We want to hear the Prime Minister’s On the issue of greater competition and choice within verdict on the hon. Member for Brent Central, and we the NHS, I think the hon. Lady should listen to past will not if there is too much noise. Labour politicians who have themselves said that actually, greater choice, greater competition and the involvement of the private sector can help to raise standards in our The Prime Minister: I thought my hon. Friend was NHS system. That is why we should support it. going to say that he was not a Government Minister “yet”. The hon. Lady is a Government Minister and Q10. [93976] Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con): The supports Government policy, as all Ministers do. threat to shipbuilding jobs at Portsmouth dockyard places a question mark over not only 1,500 livelihoods Q13. [93980] Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) at BAE Systems but 32,000 jobs in the wider regional (Lab): Fifteen thousand young disabled people will be supply chain. I know that the Prime Minister shares my affected by the changes to contributory employment concerns about that, but will he commit to do all he support allowance. The worst 10%—1,500 new claimants can to protect that site, where they have been building —will lose £4,900 a year. Is this the Government of warships for more than 500 years? values that the Prime Minister spoke about in May 2010? The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely right to speak up for Portsmouth, for her constituents and for shipbuilding. BAE Systems has not approached The Prime Minister: The important value with respect the Government with any proposal to rationalise to employment support allowance is that we are saying shipbuilding in the UK. As far as I am aware, no that there are two groups. The first group—the support decisions have yet been taken by the company. On this group—is for people who are not able to work, who Government’s commitment to the Royal Navy, we are deserve to get that support over and above jobseeker’s building the new frigates, the global combat ship and allowance, for as long as they need it, without any the hunter-killer submarines. We have plans for replacing element of means-testing. The second group—the work- Trident, and plans for aircraft carriers are well under related activity group—is for people who need help to way. That is a major punch for the Royal Navy, which I get work but who will be able to work. That is why they strongly support. are in that group. They will get tailored help and support under the Work programme to get them into work. I know the Labour party has set its face against all Q11. [93978] Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab): Treasury tax raids on North sea oil and gas are putting welfare reform, but it is making a massive mistake in 1,500 jobs at Offshore Group Newcastle in North doing so. Tyneside at risk. I ask the Prime Minister not to be complacent about north-east jobs, but to incentivise Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD): What offshore development and guarantee tax relief on confidence can we have that unilateral intervention by platform decommissioning in the Budget, and to meet Russia will put an end to the terrible violence in Syria? me and others about the job situation in the north-east.

The Prime Minister: The hon. Lady raises an extremely The Prime Minister: I think we can have very little important point. I saw for myself when I went to Aberdeen confidence in that. Frankly, Russia and China set themselves how vital this industry is and how much investment is against Arab opinion and world opinion when they set taking place in the North sea. Let me remind her, themselves against passing what would have been a however, that the reason we put up the tax on the North strong and good UN resolution. My right hon. Friend sea was to cut petrol duty for families up and down the the Foreign Secretary was absolutely right to push for country, but we will make sure—[Interruption.] that resolution. What we now need—Britain will play a big part in Mr Speaker: Order. I do not know why Members are this—is real engagement with the opposition groups falling about unable to contain themselves. I want to both inside and outside Syria, bringing together the hear the Prime Minister’s answer. strongest possible international alliance through a contact group, so that we can co-ordinate our efforts with The Prime Minister: We will make sure there is a good respect to getting rid of that dreadful regime. We should tax regime for the North sea, whether that is servicing make sure, through the EU and other bodies, that we jobs in England or, indeed, in Scotland. continue the sanctions and pressure. 305 Oral Answers8 FEBRUARY 2012 Oral Answers 306

The bloodshed in Syria is absolutely appalling. The Mr Speaker: Last but not least, I call Mr Martin Russians have to look at their consciences and realise Vickers. what they have done, but the rest of the world will keep fighting as hard as we can to give the Syrian people a Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): Thank you, chance to choose their own future. Mr Speaker. Many of my constituents are among the 337 redundancies announced by Kerry Foods, based at Q14. [93981] Alun Michael (Cardiff South and Penarth) Europarc industrial estate, which straddles the Cleethorpes (Lab/Co-op): Yesterday, I heard a health expert who is and Great Grimsby constituencies. The hon. Member visiting the UK say that the NHS remains a beacon for for Great Grimsby (Austin Mitchell) and I have approached care and effectiveness in the world, and that it needs to various Departments for support, which I am sure will be improved and perfected, not changed. Will the be forthcoming. One possibility is the extension of the Prime Minister accept that advice and abandon the recently announced enterprise zone. Will the Prime health Bill? Minister give some comfort to my constituents by considering the proposal sympathetically? The Prime Minister: What needs to be abandoned is Labour’s approach to the NHS in Wales. The Prime Minister: I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s question. He is right to speak up for his constituents in Alun Michael indicated dissent. this way. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor is happy to consider expanding the enterprise zone and see what The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman shakes else we can do to help my hon. Friend’s constituents his head, but I will tell him what Labour is doing in and ensure that they can get into work. Wales. It has cut health spending in Wales by £400 million, which is a 6.5% cut; and 27% of people in Wales wait Mr Speaker: We now come to the ten-minute rule more than six weeks for diagnostic services, whereas the motion. As always, I appeal to hon. and right hon. figure for England is just 1%. As I said earlier, one third Members leaving the Chamber to do so quickly and of people wait more than 18 weeks for an operation in quietly so that the hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree Wales. That is what we get from Labour: no money, no (Luciana Berger) can be respectfully heard by all who reform, no good health service. remain in the Chamber. 307 8 FEBRUARY 2012 Health and Safety (Amendment) 308

Health and Safety (Amendment) As I have said, the case of Mr Thornton is sadly not Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order an isolated one. In February 2008, Noel Corbin was just No. 23) 29 when he suffered fatal head injuries after falling from a roof in the course of installing a satellite dish for his employer, Foxtel Ltd. The ladder that he was provided 12.37 pm with was too short and he had not received adequate Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): training for the task that he had been asked to do. In I beg to move, fact, the property that he was working on had previously That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend the Health and been visited by other installers and the job designated as Safety at Work etc. Act 1974 to give health and safety inspectors impossible without a specialist team. His employer knew the power to apply for a court order to freeze the assets, or parts that, yet sent him to do the job alone anyway. Again, an thereof, of a company under investigation following a death or HSE investigation took place and, just like Bryn Thomas, serious injury at work; and for connected purposes. Foxtel entered administration shortly before the trial. I start by declaring an interest: I am a proud member Foxtel was found guilty of breaching health and safety of the Union of Construction, Allied Trades and laws, but because it was in administration, the court was Technicians. able only to impose a fine of just £1. Just like in the case Many in the House take our safety at work for of Mark Thornton, Foxtel has since been resurrected, granted. We are lucky enough to be in an environment and continues to trade under virtually the same name. where the risks that we are exposed to are limited, but thousands of people in our country are not so lucky. Noel’s family were kind enough to join me in Parliament They do their jobs in dangerous situations every day. on Monday to launch this Bill. They bravely shared When we think of danger, our armed forces often their tragic story and their sense of deep injustice. I can spring to mind, but in a whole range of industries, such only begin to imagine how they must feel. as construction, workers are placed in harm’s way—those Mark and Noel are just two examples of people who who work with heavy machinery, large vehicles or electrics, should be alive today but are not, and I could have for example. In these environments, there can be serious named more. The HSE has numerous powers to carry consequences if accidents happen. It is vital, then, that out investigations and inquiries where it considers that we have laws in place to ensure that every precaution is there may have been a breach of health and safety taken to keep people safe at work, and that employers regulations. However, those cases clearly demonstrate who ignore their legal responsibilities are properly deterred that its powers are limited where a company under and punished when they do wrong. investigation for a serious breach of health and safety My reason for bringing this motion before the House law goes into liquidation. The loopholes that that has today is simple: a worrying number of companies are created are wrong. They are exploited by negligent not only ignoring the laws designed to protect their employers unwilling to take responsibility for the tragedies employers but exploiting legal loopholes to avoid proper that they have caused, and they deny the victims’ families punishment following a death at work resulting from and friends the justice that they deserve. We have a their malpractice. In the brief time I have today, I want responsibility, to the families and friends who have lost to mention two companies abusing these loopholes. loved ones, to close those loopholes. In 2007, construction worker Mark Thornton, aged 46, Giving health and safety inspectors the power to was killed on a building site in my constituency. A freeze a company’s assets when it is under investigation 6 tonne steel column struck him on the head and following an accident at work would help to prevent the shoulders after the crane carrying it buckled and toppled sort of manoeuvrings illustrated in those cases. If the over. Mark worked for Bryn Thomas Crane Hire. When assets of Bryn Thomas Crane Hire Ltd had been frozen, the Health and Safety Executive investigated, following it would not have been possible to run the company Mark’s death, it concluded that a down by paying huge dividends to the directors while it “series of health and safety warnings and procedures were ignored. was under investigation. Such powers would also send a The crane was simply not capable of lifting the steel column, clear signal to other employers that they cannot avoid when it was nearly 18 metres away, without it being overloaded. If the work had been properly planned, and the crane had been being punished for breaking the law. Freezing orders are properly maintained, then Mr Thornton would still be alive today.” already used widely in cases of suspected fraud or drug In December 2010, shortly before the case came to crimes. They prevent the disposal or removal of assets trial, the company that Mark worked for went into before a judgment has been made. Those rules could administration, despite its paying out dividends of over apply equally to health and safety law. £200,000 in each of the three financial years following There may be circumstances where it is not appropriate Mark’s death. During the trial, the judge stated that he or desirable for the HSE to freeze all the assets of a was unable to impose the appropriate fine of £300,000 company—if that would lead to its being unable to for flouting health and safety legislation because the continue trading or to a loss of jobs, for example. In company was in administration. Instead, he was able those cases, the Bill would allow the HSE to freeze part only to issue a fine of just £4,500. While in administration, of a company’s assets, allowing it to continue trading, the company was bought out by two of its directors, but preventing it from avoiding the correct level of and is now operating under an almost identical name. It punishment if found guilty. is still run by the same people, and still using the same equipment. It is, to all intents and purposes, the same All too often, our health and safety laws are maligned; company. To date, inquires made by UCATT to the they are attacked as pointless and obstructive, and administrators about the moneys owed by Bryn Thomas characterised as regulations gone mad. When incorrectly and the huge dividends paid to the directors have not applied, there could be some truth to that, but no one been adequately answered. could disagree that Noel Corbin deserved the proper 309 Health and Safety (Amendment) 8 FEBRUARY 2012 310 sized ladder or that the crane that killed Mark Thornton Police should have been properly maintained and fit for the task. 12.47 pm The Government have launched a red tape challenge, which they say is an attempt to cut unnecessary regulations The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick for business. As part of that they are examining health Herbert): I beg to move, and safety laws. I urge Ministers not to remove regulations That the Police Grant Report (England and Wales) for 2012-13 that protect our workers. In the construction industry, (HC 1797), which was laid before this House on 31 January, be strong health and safety laws save lives. If our laws were approved. stronger, more lives might be saved. Last year, 50 people This Government inherited the largest budget deficit died on construction sites—that is 50 people too many. in our peacetime history. The deficit needs to be reduced, which means less spending across the public sector, and Employers who wilfully avoid protecting the lives of the police service must play its part. The reductions we the people who work for them must never be able to are making in police funding are not through choice; walk away without punishment or to continue trading they are a direct response to the situation in which the and endangering others. That is why I have brought this country was left. On 8 December, I laid before this Bill forward. In doing so, I hope that the Government House a written ministerial statement, which set out the will look at the issue and be persuaded that the time has Government’s proposed allocations of grants to police come to put this modest but vital measure into law. authorities and, from this November, police and crime Question put and agreed to. commissioners in England and Wales. Following that, Ordered, the Government held a public consultation on the proposed That Luciana Berger, Steve Rotheram, Joan Walley, allocations, to which we received 21 responses. Huw Irranca-Davies, John Cryer, Angela Smith, Mr David Hamilton, Natascha Engel, Kevin Brennan, Julie Elliott, Mark Hendrick (Preston) (Lab/Co-op) rose— Mr Stephen Hepburn and Jim Sheridan present the Nick Herbert: I shall give way to the hon. Gentleman—at Bill. a very early stage. Luciana Berger accordingly presented the Bill. Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Mark Hendrick: Will the Minister tell us why the Friday 27 April 2012, and to be printed (Bill 305). Lancashire constabulary is losing 500 police officers? Nick Herbert: I will come to all those issues in the course of my remarks. Naturally, I intend to address all these issues.

John Healey (Wentworth and Dearne) (Lab): Will the Minister give way?

Nick Herbert: Let me make a little more progress, and I will give way to the right hon. Gentleman later. Following careful consideration of all those responses, I have decided that force level allocations will remain as announced in my written ministerial statement of 8 December. Each police force in England and Wales will face an equal percentage reduction in core Government funding in 2012-13. I believe that that is the most transparent, straightforward and equitable means of apportioning the funding reductions. It is important to note that the allocations were set out last year and have remained the same.

Alun Michael (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op): The Minister is talking about the level of cuts and maintaining the figures as originally set out. Does he accept that although it might not be his choice, it is the Government’s choice that the reductions are front-ended, and therefore place an additional burden which is more difficult for police forces to meet?

Nick Herbert: The profile of the reductions for police forces was set by the spending review. There are larger reductions in the first and second years than in the third and fourth years, and that reflects the overall need for the Government to get on top of the deficit and build credibility in this area. The position and allocations I have announced remain the same, so there are no surprises for police forces, which have been working on that basis since the spending review was announced. 311 Police8 FEBRUARY 2012 Police 312

John Healey: The Minister talks about choices, but to his force because it raises less money from the local will he talk about consequences? South Yorkshire has taxpayer, we would have penalised the forces that raise been forced to cut more than 100 police officers since more from the local taxpayer. Why should forces that the election and will have to cut another 300. Will he have over the years increased the amount of local rethink these Government funding cuts for the police funding they receive be penalised more and why should instead of stripping us in south Yorkshire of the police their taxpayers be penalised more? Furthermore, police we need? forces were expecting an even share of the reduction. For all those reasons, we thought that the proper and Nick Herbert: I will come to the issue of police fairest course was to give an even reduction across the numbers, although the previous Home Secretary in the forces. The hon. Gentleman might not like that explanation, Government whom the right hon. Gentleman supported but it is a credible and proper response to the situation said just before the election that he could not guarantee in which we found ourselves. the number of police officers. One of the points I will be I appreciate that there are differences of opinion making today is that the Opposition are committed to about the use of damping and I understand why some reductions in spending that mean they too would produce forces wish to see it phased out while others welcome its a situation in which police forces were losing officers—the retention. I know that many police forces and authorities question is how forces adapt to that. Anyway, I do not are keen to have more clarity about the damping think we should just play the straightforward numbers arrangements for the last two years of this spending game. review period, and I want to reassure the House that I intend to consider this issue very carefully and will take Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): Does the into account the wide range of views before making a Minister share my confusion about the fact that when final decision later this year. police numbers in my police force in Humberside were cut by 137 in 2009 under the Labour Government, not a Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): The Minister single Labour politician, local council or local MP has repeatedly said that the front line does not have to criticised those cuts? Instead, they defended them, saying, be affected, but does he accept that the evidence is clear “It’s not about numbers; it’s about what you do with that it is being affected and that front-line officers are your police officers.” Does my right hon. Friend think going each day? that is a bit weird?

Nick Herbert: I thank my hon. Friend for that Nick Herbert: The hon. Gentleman is making the intervention. It is certainly true that we do not hear mistake that I think is the mistake of the Labour party much of that from the Labour party now. Some 27 police of equating the quality of the front-line service purely forces were reducing police numbers at the time of the with numbers. I shall address precisely this issue later, last election, but that is not frequently admitted by the and if he feels that I have not done that I will be happy Opposition. for him to intervene on me again. One-off funding will additionally be provided to the On capital funding, I have carefully considered the Mayor’s office for policing and crime in 2012 from consultation responses and have decided to top-slice outside the police spending review settlement. That the Home Office police capital allocation to support the payment will help to maintain the operational capabilities establishment of the National Police Air Service. That of the Metropolitan police while they are policing the service will give all forces access to helicopter support Olympics, the Paralympics, WorldPride and Her Majesty’s 24 hours a day, 365 days year, in contrast with the diamond jubilee celebrations. It will help to maintain current system in which some force’s helicopters are resilience during this unique period and, crucially, it grounded for days at a time while being repaired. It will comes on top of the police spending review settlement, mean that 97% of the population of England and Wales which means that no police force will see its funding will remain within 20 minutes’ flying time, and it will reduced as a result. save the police service £15 million a year when fully operational. Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab): If I The plan for the National Police Air Service has been heard the Minister correctly a few moments ago, he said led by Chief Constable Alex Marshall and has the full that the cuts, while regrettable, were equitable. May I support of the Association of Chief Police Officers, the ask him to address an issue that we from the west police service’s operational leaders and the vast majority midlands and some cities have been saying for some of police authorities. The funding proposal I have set time? For forces that are more dependent on grant, the out is the right way to ensure that this key national cuts are much greater and deeper than for other forces. service is established on a sound basis. Each force will Why is it that the West Midlands force is suffering a face an equal percentage reduction in the previously reduction of 7.3% while Surrey has an increase of indicated level of capital grant; this is the most transparent 3.8%? Is that his definition of us all being in it together? and equitable means of providing for the capital requirements of what will be a national service. All Nick Herbert: There is an equal share in the reduction forces will benefit from the savings. in central Government funding, and the decision that confronted the Government, which we have discussed Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): I welcome what the in the House before, was whether to adjust that reduction Minister has done on the helicopter issue, especially in for the contribution that is made by the local taxpayer. I using the powers to mandate South Yorkshire, but what understand why the hon. Gentleman wants to make this about unexpected events? Last Saturday, the English point as a west midlands Member of Parliament, but Defence League marched through the middle of Leicester had we followed his advice and given a smaller reduction at a cost to the police authority of £800,000. Where 313 Police8 FEBRUARY 2012 Police 314 does it get that money from at a time when budgets are We have set aside sufficient funding for the election very tight? It cannot prevent people from marching this November of police and crime commissioners, who unless there are reasons to do so, but that puts it under will ensure that the police become fully accountable and huge pressure. responsive to the demands of their local areas. That funding is additional money, which will not come from Nick Herbert: First, I note the right hon. Gentleman’s the police settlement. [Interruption.] As hon. Members support for the National Police Air Service, which is seek to interrupt me from a sedentary position, let me important given his position as the Chairman of the observe that it is very gratifying to note the number of Select Committee on Home Affairs. This move is a putative police and crime commissioners on the Opposition significant step forward and shows that police forces Benches. Indeed, more and more Labour Members of can collaborate to improve the quality of service and Parliament are jumping from the sinking ship every day reduce cost. On events that occur in police force areas in the hope of seeking refuge in elected local office. and incur particular costs, there are established procedures under which police forces can apply to the Home Office Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) for special grant. Forces and authorities are aware of (Lab) rose— the criteria for such grants and we will always consider Nick Herbert: The right hon. Lady will soon be on such applications very carefully. her own.

Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab): In Greater Yvette Cooper: Given that the Minister is so isolated Manchester, we were genuinely grateful for the moneys as he sits there on the Government Front Bench, I think that flowed from the Home Office as a consequence of that he may want to reconsider that remark. Will he tell the riots. However, will the Minister address this point the House how many constables could have been paid about the front line? During the riots, the Home Secretary for with the money that is to be spent on police and ordered that all leave be cancelled, and the thin blue line crime commissioners? was very stretched. Can the Minister honestly say that with the current cutbacks, if there were large-scale Nick Herbert: I have said on a number of occasions disorder such as that last August, which nobody wants that we do not expect the running costs of police and to see, the police service could cope, even with the cuts crime commissioners to be more than those of police that are still coming? authorities. The only additional cost will be the cost of elections, which will represent 0.1% of annual police Nick Herbert: I am absolutely confident that the spend. Having got itself into the position of opposing police service could cope in those circumstances. In this democratic reform over the last 18 months, the such situations, police forces will always rely on additional Labour party is now putting up candidates, and some support from other services and will take special measures, would-be candidates are on the Benches behind the such as the cancellation of leave, to maximise the resources right hon. Lady. I think that she needs to catch up: she available to them. The hon. Gentleman will have noted cannot go on criticising this policy while at the same that the inspectorate of constabulary report on this time fielding candidates. issue did not suggest that the reduction in police spending I believe that the challenge of maintaining and improving and numbers was going to leave police forces more policing as budgets fall is manageable, provided that vulnerable in that regard. It talked about the importance forces do not treat this as “business as usual”. Her of more effective and rapid deployment, and those are Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary has set out how the issues on which we should focus. forces can save over £1 billion a year if those that spend more than others reduce their costs just to the average. Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab): The Minister The savings identified were in such areas as legal services, said that he did not think there was any need to lose estates—buildings, maintenance and services—criminal front-line police officers, and quoted the inspectorate in justice and custody, training, control rooms, business that context. Has the inspectorate not said that up to support, investigations, community safety and community 10,000 police on the beat will be lost because of his relations. However, it is important to appreciate that the cuts? Government and forces are identifying savings well beyond the scope of HMIC’s report. Pay accounts for the bulk of total police spending, Nick Herbert: I shall deal with precisely what the which amounted to about £11 billion last year, so there inspectorate said in a minute. is no doubt that pay reform and restraint must form Funding for counter-terrorism policing has been part of the police savings package. That is why we have prioritised in the police funding settlement to ensure asked the police—along with the rest of the public that the police have the necessary resources to respond sector—to accept a two-year pay freeze, which could save to the demands posed by the continuing terrorist threat. them at least £350 million a year. I note that the We have allocated £564 million to counter-terrorism for official Opposition now support that pay freeze. The 2012-13, and that follows a considerable increase over first part of the Winsor review also made a number of previous years. Forces will receive their allocations shortly. recommendations, and the House will be aware of the Home Delivering a safe and secure Olympic and Paralympic Secretary’s recent announcement that the Government games is a priority for the Government, and preparations will approve the recommendations of the police arbitration remain on track. As we indicated last year, the Government tribunal. I note that the official Opposition also urged are confident that the Olympic policing and wider security the Government to implement the tribunal’s findings. programme can be delivered in full for £475 million, Once they have been fully implemented, those changes although £600 million remains available if required. will save forces about £150 million a year. 315 Police8 FEBRUARY 2012 Police 316

Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): I am listening with Yvette Cooper: We do think it right to make savings great interest to what the Minister has to say. He said from procurement, but will the Minister explain why, if that he did not believe that front-line policing was just all these things are happening, 16,000 police officers are about police numbers, but we believe that the front line still being lost? Will he also confirm that 4,000 officers will be badly affected by the cuts that he is making, have already gone from the front line alone since the especially in such places as Halton in Cheshire. Can he election? give a guarantee that the front-line response to incidents will not deteriorate over the period of this Parliament? Nick Herbert: All these changes mean that there will be a smaller work force. The Government have always Nick Herbert: I believe that chief constables—including, accepted that. Some £2 billion a year needs to be saved, notably, the chief constable of Cheshire—are committed and most of the spending is on personnel, although a to maintaining the quality of their front-line service, significant proportion is not. The savings that I have and to finding new ways of delivering that service, in the described can be achieved through more efficient working light of the reduced resource that they confront. and, in many cases, fewer personnel. The question is, The police do important, often difficult and sometimes what will be the impact on the service and the performance dangerous work, and we should continue to value police of the forces? That is what the right hon. Lady simply officers and staff. I appreciate that changes to pay and will not focus on. pensions are difficult for them, but reform is necessary. The changes in police pay will not reduce basic pay, Several hon. Members rose— and, crucially, will help to protect police jobs, keep officers on the streets, and fight crime. Together, the Nick Herbert: I will give way to the Chairman of the changes in pay and conditions will save half a billion Home Affairs Committee. pounds a year on top of HMIC’s savings. The second way in which savings beyond those identified Keith Vaz: I am grateful to the Minister for giving by HMIC can be achieved is through forces working way to me for the second time. Has he seen the evidence together, harnessing their collective buying power and given to the Home Affairs Committee by Dame Helen rationalising where duplication is wasteful and inefficient. Ghosh? We were pushing the recommendation that we The 43 forces of England and Wales have between them had made in a previous report that there should be a 2,000 different IT systems and 300 data centres, and catalogue—Dame Helen kept referring to it as an Argos employ 5,000 staff, yet—as officers frequently tell me—the catalogue, but something more up-market would be IT systems in forces are still not good enough. We are more appropriate—[Interruption.] I will not refer to therefore enabling forces to introduce better, more cost- John Lewis, for obvious reasons. The catalogue in question, effective IT arrangements, for instance through the which would be approved by the Home Office, would proposed new ICT company. ensure that police forces did not procure separately, but obtained the best possible national deal. Mr David Ruffley (Bury St Edmunds) (Con): In the context of smarter and better procurement, can the Nick Herbert: I can reassure the right hon. Gentleman Minister give us an update on the HMIC figure, which that that is effectively what we are doing. We are passing suggested that if all the 43 forces were as efficient new regulations—we have just introduced the latest procurers as the most efficient, £1.5 billion a year could raft—which require forces to buy certain goods and be saved? items of equipment together. The savings that they are making are accumulating, and, as I have said, will Nick Herbert: My hon. Friend has made a good eventually reach £200 million a year. I shall be happy to point. HMIC savings were predicated on forces becoming provide the Home Affairs Committee with an update as efficient as the average. One of the points that the on that, because I think it is a good story which shows Government have been making is that there is no reason that forces can make savings by working more effectively why we should not raise force performance to the level together. I note that the Opposition have conceded that of the best. That is not some arbitrary target; we know savings can be made in that area. Those savings, too, are that some forces are already achieving greater efficiency. in addition to the savings identified by HMIC. We believe that there is a potential for at least £180 million The third way in which the police can find savings of savings per annum through ICT. Forces have already beyond those originally identified by HMIC is through made substantial savings. Police spend was some £73 million transformation of the way forces work. HMIC said that lower last year than in 2009-10, and there are opportunities savings of £1 billion a year could be found if the for forces to go further. We are using the national high-spending forces simply reduced their costs in a buying power of the police service—indeed, the whole range of functions to the average of that spent by a public sector—to do things better and more cheaply. similar force. However, if all forces achieved the efficiency We are requiring the police to procure more and more levels of the best forces nationally, that would save a equipment together. Those changes alone could save a further £350 million a year. Why should not all forces be further £200 million per annum by 2014-15. as efficient as the best? Outsourcing can also play a major role in effecting Yvette Cooper rose— this transformation. The Government have been supporting Surrey and West Midlands forces and authorities in a Nick Herbert: I will of course give way to the shadow joint programme exploring the value of business partnering. Home Secretary, but I wonder whether she will confirm Broad areas of service can be covered, including a range in her intervention that she supports the savings that we of activities in, or supporting, front-line policing such seek to make through collective procurement and better IT. as dealing with incidents, supporting victims, protecting 317 Police8 FEBRUARY 2012 Police 318 individuals at risk and providing specialist services. This services are bound to be damaged simply because police is not about traditional outsourcing; rather, it is about numbers are falling. That is the equation that Labour building a new strategic relationship between forces and always makes, but the fact is that the latest official the private sector. By harnessing private-sector innovation, figures show recorded crime falling, and according to specialist skills and economies of scale, forces can transform the British crime survey the crime level is stable. There the way they deliver services and improve outcomes for are areas of concern, and chief constables are fully the public. Every police authority in England and Wales aware of that. We all need to work hard to stay on top bar one could join in, should they choose to do so. of crime. However, the Opposition cannot claim that Under its own steam, Lincolnshire is about to sign a overall crime is rising, or that falling police numbers are £200 million contract over 10 years with G4S. That causing crime to rise. They cannot claim that because it contract for support services is available to the other is not true. forces named on the procurement notice. In any case, Labour cannot attack falling police These are highly significant developments that open numbers as a result of these savings when it is committed up the possibility of new savings across policing. The to the same savings. The shadow Home Secretary backs published potential value of the Surrey and West Midlands over £1 billion-worth of savings as recommended by contract is between £300 million and £3.5 billion. I look HMIC, but the shadow police Minister, the right hon. forward to hearing whether the Opposition believe that Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson), has told this House such business partnering is the right way forward for that when he was in office he planned to save policing. “£500 million to £600 million from overtime and shift patterns”.— [Official Report, 13 December 2010; Vol. 520, c. 722.] Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): May I That is far more than the HMIC’s £90 million of take the Minister back to my right hon. Friend the savings from better management of staffing rotas and shadow Home Secretary’s point that HMIC has calculated overtime. Further, 12 days ago the shadow Home Secretary that police numbers will fall by 16,000? Has the Home finally admitted that Labour backed the pay freeze for Office estimated how many of the posts that will be lost police officers and staff that is worth £350 million, and will be from the back office, because we know that 4,000 she said that that was not just for the next year but for jobs have been lost from the front line in the first year of future years as well. To be added to the £1.2 billion of the Minister’s cuts alone? savings recommended by HMIC, the savings from overtime and the pay freeze are the £150 million of savings Nick Herbert: The HMIC report said there had been recommended by the police arbitration tribunal and a 2% reduction in the number of front-line officers. endorsed by the Labour party. In total, therefore, Labour Judging by the hon. Gentleman’s face, he has not read has backed more than £2 billion-worth of cuts to police that report, and I suggest he does so. funding. Let me say this plainly: the Opposition cannot Taken together, these reforms will result in far in attack the cuts when they back cuts on the same scale. excess of a 12% real-terms reduction in central Government They cannot go around criticising falling officer and funding. They will save over £2 billion a year. In fact, staff numbers when their savings would result in a they will save more than the reduction in central smaller work force, too. Government grant of 20% in real terms. Let me repeat the following, therefore: the savings identified by HMIC Yvette Cooper rose— are over £1 billion; the savings from pay are £0.5 billion; the savings from collective procurement and IT are Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab) rose— £380 million; and the savings from bringing every force’s performance up to the level of the best are £350 million. Nick Herbert: I give way to the shadow Home Secretary. The total savings, therefore, amount to over £2.3 billion, exceeding the reductions in police funding while protecting Yvette Cooper: The Minister can put up all the front-line services. smokescreens he wants, but he knows that we will back a 12% reduction in the policing budgets over the course Yvette Cooper: According to the Minister, everything of the Parliament, not the 20% cut that he wants. Will is hunky-dory, because if his figures are to believed he confirm that his 20% cuts are leading to 16,000 there will be no negative impact on services. Why, police officers being lost, and that HMIC took into therefore, has the Lancashire chief constable now had account his pay freeze and all the savings that he has to decide that his force will have to change its response outlined when it projected that 16,000 police officer times? He has said: posts will be lost? Will he now ditch his 20% plan, “If someone is absolutely insistent that they need to see an change instead to our 12% plan, and save those 16,000 officer, they’ll see an officer. But…it might be that we negotiate police officer posts? either a delay or no deployment at all.” That is clearly an example of an impact on front-line Nick Herbert: The right hon. Lady has been caught policing, and the service provided to people who live in out. The fact is that the HMIC savings did not include Lancashire, as a result of the scale of the Government’s the pay freeze or the savings from collective procurement, cuts. which just a few minutes ago she said could be made. [Interruption.] Two weeks ago, she was forced to admit Nick Herbert: I very much doubt that the chief constable that she backed that pay freeze. Her colleague the of Lancashire police—who is one of the best chief shadow police Minister tried to disagree with that, but constables in the country, and who heads a high-performing she has confirmed that she backs the pay freeze. Those force—would accept the right hon. Lady’s characterisation savings are in addition to the £1 billion. [Interruption.] of his decision. Her entire contention is that front-line They are in addition to the 12%. [Interruption.] It is no 319 Police8 FEBRUARY 2012 Police 320

[Nick Herbert] if other forces and areas are doing it and have had the same level of funding reductions, why cannot his? Labour use the right hon. Lady just hectoring. If she pays Members instantly assume that there is a need to increase attention for a second, she will learn that these pay spending, and it is precisely that attitude that got the restraint savings are on top of the HMIC savings. That country into this mess in the first place. They simply is the whole point. The Opposition are attacking the will not focus on how money is spent—only on the call cuts while backing the same scale of cuts themselves; it for more money to be spent. is just that they will not admit that to police officers or the public. David Wright (Telford) (Lab): The Minister is being incredibly generous; he has given way many times, and Yvette Cooper: Does the Minister agree that if he it is appreciated. By their very nature, police community shifted from 20% to 12%, he could save thousands of support officers provide front-line policing and support police officer jobs across the country and improve front-line functions to the police. What is his estimate of the services? If he does agree with that, why will he not reduction in the number of PCSOs? They have been switch to the far more sensible 12%? incredibly popular in the West Mercia area, yet the Nick Herbert: If the right hon. Lady agreed with that HMIC report says that we might lose up to 90. Does the herself, why does she remain committed to these 20% cuts? Minister think that will happen? That is what she is committed to: the HMIC savings plus the pay savings, the procurement savings, and the Nick Herbert: The Government and I are strong savings her shadow police Minister has identified through supporters of PCSOs, and as I will mention in a minute, overtime. All of that adds up to far more than 12%. we continue to provide a substantial sum of money [Interruption.] She is shaking her head in denial, but through the neighbourhood policing fund. In future, that is the truth of the matter. The Opposition are police and crime commissioners will decide how they pretending that they are not committed to the same wish to deploy that money, which will be rolled into the level of cuts, but when pushed, they have to admit that police main grant. I hope they will pay attention to they are. Police officers will know it, and the public will views such as the hon. Gentleman expressed about the know it. The Opposition cannot credibly campaign importance of PCSOs in providing a visible face of against cuts when they remain committed to these levels policing in neighbourhoods, and in offering that reassurance. of reductions in spending themselves. They are a valuable addition to the police work force. Therefore, although the Opposition do not want to Mr Ruffley: According to the House of Commons admit it, there is agreement about the need for savings Library, if we take the spending review presumption in the police budget, and it is about time we all started that police authorities will choose to increase the precept to focus on how money is spent. Of course, visibility at the level forecast by the Office for Budget Responsibility, and availability of police officers matters, but that is there will not be a 20% reduction by 2015; instead, there affected by how officers are deployed, shift patterns and will be only a 14% reduction in real terms. bureaucracy. If officers waste time filling in forms or Nick Herbert: My hon. Friend is, of course, right. If doing a task which could be done more efficiently, they forces choose to increase the precept, under the OBR are kept from front-line duties. That is why we have expectation, the reduction would be less than 20%. announced a package of measures that will cut police Even if all forces froze the precept for the next three bureaucracy and save up to 3.3 million police hours a years, the reductions in police force budgets would be year—the equivalent of putting more than 1,500 police less than 20%. There is not a single force in the country officers back on the streets. That is why we are piloting that is facing a 20% reduction in budget. This is another live links technology, so that police officers can give way in which the Opposition either fail to understand evidence from their stations rather than wasting their what is going on or seek to present a different picture to time hanging around in court. the public. However, police forces themselves can make the changes to improve front-line services within the available resources. Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab): A few minutes HMIC’s report “Demanding Times” was clear about ago, the Minister said that the crime figures were not the need to match resources better with demand. It rising, but in York they are. According to an answer found that, on average, police forces had more officers from his junior Minister, the figure for York in the last visible and available on a Monday morning than on a year of the previous Labour Government was 14,480; it Friday night, and the best forces had twice the visibility rose in the first year of the Conservative Government to and availability of those at the bottom of the table. By 15,199. What, therefore, is the Minister’s strategy in changing shift patterns, targeting resources better, reducing areas such as mine, where he is cutting £5 million from time-wasting bureaucracy and using initiatives such as our local police force budget, even though we need “hot-spots” or problem-oriented policing, forces can additional resources to counter the increase in crime not only continue to deliver within reduced budgets, but since the Conservatives came to power? continue to cut crime. Nick Herbert: I did say that there were areas of concern that forces would have to attend to. Overall, the Julie Hilling rose— figures were clear that recorded crime is down. If other forces are working within the available resources, why Mr Watts rose— does the hon. Gentleman assume that the solution is to increase resourcing in his area? Perhaps the solution is Nick Herbert: The evidence from HMIC also showed better policing, better partnership and a focus on driving that a third of the police work force, including some down crime in those areas. The question he must ask is: 25,000 police officers and PCSOs—a quarter of all 321 Police8 FEBRUARY 2012 Police 322 police officers, in fact—were employed in the back and reducing crime, and has made a public commitment to middle offices. There is plenty of scope to make savings retaining local visible policing levels. Thames Valley has while protecting the front line, even if the overall number reduced business support costs such as HR, removed a of officers has to fall, and this is what is happening. layer of management and is collaborating with other HMIC’s most recent data show that the proportion of forces. It has saved money and is to re-deploy officers to the policing work force in the front line is expected to front-line roles in neighbourhoods or on patrol. Kent rise over the spending review period. The Government’s police has better matched staffing levels with demand, commitment to helping to protect visible policing is increased police officer availability, restructured the way clear, not least in the neighbourhood policing fund, it provides policing services, collaborated with Essex through which we are making £338 million available to police, streamlined support services and is realigning ensure that forces can continue to provide a dedicated, some of its specialist policing functions. As a result, it consistent and visible presence in their communities has been able to deploy more officers to uniformed through PCSOs. Crucially, maintaining the fund in street patrols. It has increased police visibility with the 2012-13 will ensure that police and crime commissioners public, the head count of neighbourhood officers and inherit a fully functioning neighbourhood policing staff has increased by 50%, and public satisfaction framework in November. From that time, the decisions levels have increased. about such resourcing will be for them. It is therefore clear that, through changing the way I now give way to the hon. Member for Bolton West forces do things, they can make savings and maintain or (Julie Hilling), who has been patient. improve the service they provide to their communities.

Julie Hilling: I thank the Minister for giving way. I Yvette Cooper rose— have been listening very carefully and I am somewhat confused. My understanding was that the Government Nick Herbert: I will give way one last time. were saying there would be no cuts to front-line services, but he seems to be acknowledging that there may be a Yvette Cooper: The Policing Minister has been generous cut to PCSO and officer numbers. My officers tell me in giving way. He boasts about the improvements in that it now takes them much longer to deal with any getting more police officers on to the street and into case that they have to attend, because they cannot then front-line jobs. Will he therefore admit that it is a get through to report it. Each case should take 10 minutes serious problem that, since the election, 4,000 front-line to report, but it is actually taking an hour because of officers doing front-line jobs have gone? the cuts to back-room services. What is the Minister’s view of the fact that cases are taking much longer for Nick Herbert: I really think that “boasting” is a silly police officers to resolve? word to use about what I am saying these forces are doing. I am describing what chief constables have done Nick Herbert: I certainly think it important that in adjusting to reduced resources, reconfiguring how forces guard against what is sometimes called reverse policing is delivered and protecting the front line. That civilianisation—the idea that reducing the number of is not a boast from the Government; it is an explanation staff will increase the demand on officers. It is about of how policing services can be transformed. [Interruption.] re-engineering policing to make sure that processes are I suggest—if the right hon. Lady will draw breath—that more efficient. Actually, there has been a huge growth she would do well to meet some of these chief constables in the number of staff in police forces over the past and hear how they are achieving these aims. 10 years, and there has been scope to reduce that. The It is clear that forces, through changing the way they simple point is, of course, that if the number of staff do things, can make savings and maintain or improve had not been reduced by rather more than the number the service they provide to their communities. Our of police officers, that would have impacted on the reforms will support this change: a police professional latter. There is balance to be achieved here. Furthermore, body, to be up and running by the end of the year, setting police officers cannot be made redundant anyway. standards, improving training, equipping professionals We have to get away from the idea that the quality of to do the job and helping to reduce bureaucracy; a a front-line service can be measured only by the number police ICT company to help the police deliver better of staff or how much money is spent on it. The National value to forces for their ICT spend; and a new national Audit Office’s report on mobile technology in policing, crime agency, a powerful new crime-fighting force working published two weeks ago, showed that under the last across different police forces and agencies, defending Government, £71 million was spent to deliver only a our borders, co-ordinating action on economic crime “basic level” of benefits. Four years later, the scheme and protecting children and vulnerable people. Police has still not delivered value for money to the taxpayer. and crime commissioners will ensure that the police The NAO found that tackle local priorities and hold the chief constable to account, and they will drive value for money. “not enough consideration was given to how forces would use the mobile technology, how much local spending was required or how This is a coherent agenda to build a modern, flexible realistic were the announced deadlines”. and responsive police service, delivering value for money Let us hear less, in the constant demand to spend more for the taxpayer and fighting crime. I commend this money, about the focus on inputs, and rather more motion to the House. about value for money and how well this money is being spent. 1.29 pm The fact is that across the country, forces are reducing Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) budgets while protecting, or indeed improving, front-line (Lab): Today, the Government are asking Parliament to services. Hampshire, for example, is saving money and support an 8% real cut in their funding for police forces 323 Police8 FEBRUARY 2012 Police 324

[Yvette Cooper] as Merseyside and to other police authorities that face major problems? Those problems are now not going to across the country next year. An 8% cut in one year get dealt with because of the cuts. alone is more than any other service is expected to make next year. Manchester’s chief constable has said that it Yvette Cooper: My hon. Friend is exactly right. This is will be happening from Merseyside to Norfolk and Gloucestershire; “the most difficult financial year for policing in living memory”. it is happening right across the country. We have been Gloucestershire’s chief constable has said that his force warning that the Government should reopen the funding now faces “a cliff edge”, and the Dyfed Powys police formula for not only the Met, but other forces across chief has said that he is the country, because the Minister’s plans are doing nothing for those other forces, which are facing those “genuinely concerned about how we will be able to effectively protect our communities and bring criminals to justice”. pressures. We have to wonder what the chief constables in other parts of the country have to do to get a break. Chief constables in Lancashire, Norfolk and South Do they have to put on a blonde wig, jump on a bike Yorkshire are all warning that the cuts will make it and become a struggling Tory candidate to get the harder for them to fight crime—they are even warning money they need? The Home Secretary should be more that in some cases crime may rise as a result. Serious concerned about public safety than about the safety of warnings are being sounded to the Prime Minister, the Boris Johnson. This is a con for Londoners, it is a Home Secretary and the Minister for Policing and rip-off for the rest of the country and it is pork barrel Criminal Justice by chief constable after chief constable, politics at its worst. but nobody in the Government is listening. Time and again, we have called on Ministers to think again and Andrew Percy: The shadow Secretary of State will, as reopen the policing budget, but time and again they ever, wish to be honest with the House. If she were have refused to do so. Time and again, they have said Secretary of State today, would she be coming to his that the police do not need the cash. House to cut the budget for Humberside police, in my Some £31 million has been cut from Manchester’s area—yes or no? force, with cuts of £33 million from the West Midlands police and £13 million from the Devon and Cornwall Yvette Cooper: As we made clear, we believe that the police. Big cuts are being made to force after force next force should have a 12% cut over the course of the year, except in London. Three months before the mayoral Parliament. So, yes, forces would face reductions and election, and three weeks after the polls show Boris would have to make savings, but that figure has been Johnson falling behind, the Government suddenly decide supported by chief constables across the country, by to reopen the budget for London—they suddenly decide work done by Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary to come up with a pre-election £90 million bung. The and by work that the former Home Secretary did before London Mayor has spent years cutting the Met police the election. That is why we think that ours is a reasonable and the number of officers in London, yet suddenly the approach to take, as opposed to making the deepest Conservative party has panicked and is trying to bail cuts in police funding seen for a generation—cuts of 8% him out. Suddenly, the party has noticed that the public in one year alone and cuts of 20% altogether. The hon. are angry about the cuts that Boris Johnson has agreed Gentleman’s local force is losing 500 police officers as a to their safer neighbourhood teams, their CID units result of his Government’s plans. Will he be putting that and their police officers based in schools. on his election leaflet?

Nick Herbert rose— Andrew Percy: Does the shadow Secretary of State therefore agree that it may be seen as a little dishonest Yvette Cooper: I will give way to the Policing Minister of local Labour politicians, who did not oppose police if he can explain why he has suddenly decided to cuts in Humberside in 2009, under a Labour Government, increase this funding just three months before the mayoral to be on the streets now campaigning against police election. cuts, given that she has just admitted to the House that if she were Secretary of State she would be cutting my Nick Herbert: I did explain why this coalition local police force today? Government have increased the funding, and I should point out that both parties will be fielding candidates in Yvette Cooper: Let us, again, be clear that Labour the election. Will the right hon. Lady tell me clearly would not be cutting by 20%—we do not think that that whether she supports the increase in funding for the is right. We think that the Government are going too Metropolitan police this year—yes or no? far, too fast. They are hitting the economy and pushing it into reverse, but they are also hitting policing. The Yvette Cooper: We certainly support extra funding hon. Gentleman did not say whether he would be for the Metropolitan police and for forces in Greater putting the cut of 500 police officers on his election Manchester, West Yorkshire, Humberside and across leaflet, but I can tell him that we will be putting it on the country, which the Minister has abandoned because ours. those areas do not have an immediate election where a Tory candidate is starting to struggle and fall behind. Nick Herbert: The right hon. Lady was a Chief Secretary to the Treasury, so I wonder whether she Mr Watts: Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is a could assist me now. Will she confirm that the £1 billion scandal that the Government parties are bribing the of spending cuts that HMIC recommended, which she London voters because there is a crucial election, while supports, and the half a billion pounds of pay freeze at the same time they are cutting funding to areas such and pay reform through the Police Arbitration Tribunal 325 Police8 FEBRUARY 2012 Police 326 decision, which she also supports—that is £1 billion “With well-known faces out on the beat, and a high police plus half a billion—equals £1.5 billion, which is more visibility, residents clearly feel safer, and crime goes down. than the spending reduction of 12% that she claims she Residents…value and cherish their local police team, and don’t is supporting? want to see their numbers cut.” That is no rogue Back Bencher straying from the line— Yvette Cooper: No, we are very clear that we support that was the Under-Secretary of State for the Home a 12% reduction and not the 20% reduction that the Department, the hon. Member for Hornsey and Wood Minister wants. I have to say to him that if his fantasy Green (Lynne Featherstone). I apologise, Mr Deputy figures added up, no police force across the country Speaker, because I did not notify the hon. Lady that I would be reducing the number of front-line officers, but was going to refer to something that she, as a Home forces are doing that and 4,000 officers have already Office Minister, had said, which is a convention I like to gone as a result of his figures and of what he is doing. respect. I had expected, however, that Home Office All the smokescreens in the world that he puts up will Ministers would be on the Front Bench to support the not stack up, given that police officers are being lost Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice, but it turns across the country. The reason why we believe that out that the Home Secretary cannot even convince her 12% is the right figure is because we want to protect the own team, never mind the country, that what she is 16,000 police officers that his Government are getting doing to the police is right. rid of. That is why we think that we should have a By the way, where is the Home Secretary? Where is balanced approach to the policing funding for the future. she, on the day that she expects Parliament to vote for It is true that a 12% reduction requires pay restraint, the biggest annual cut to police funding for generations? procurement reforms and cutting bureaucracy and back- office processes—all those things have to be done within the policing budget to deliver the 12% savings. That is Mr Ruffley: I respect the right hon. Lady, but she what police officers and chief constables are doing right must be aware—her memory cannot be failing her that across the country, but he knows what the consequences much—that throughout the previous Parliament, the will be if he pushes them beyond that 12% because we Minister of State responsible for policing always opened are already seeing them. Some 4,000 front-line officers this debate and the shadow Minister, which was a post I have gone already and 16,000 are to go in total. Why held for a time, always responded. She knows that full does he still want to support that number of police well. officers going? Yvette Cooper: The hon. Gentleman will also know Nick Herbert: This is an important debate and I am that in the previous Parliament the Government were not clear as to whether the right hon. Lady does not not introducing the biggest cut to policing for generations understand HMIC’s report or whether she is seeking to and not taking responsibility for it. Last year, when a present the savings in a way that is not justified. She has Minister in the Department for Communities and Local just said that the 12% savings—HMIC’s savings, which Government introduced the biggest cuts to council funding she has supported—include pay restraint, but they do in a generation, the Secretary of State came to the not, as is absolutely clear from reading the report. I House to debate it and to defend it. The Home Secretary strongly suggest to her that she goes away to read it. has not done the same. Will she now accept that the HMIC savings did not The Home Secretary has a history of hiding. Yesterday, include pay restraint and that by supporting pay restraint she had to be forced to the House to tell us what she was of half a billion pounds, as she has done, she is therefore doing about Abu Qatada, and when our borders were going further than HMIC’s savings? Why does she not breached, she went to ground. We have not seen her do understand that? a proper TV or radio interview for nearly six months. Yvette Cooper: I am afraid that the Policing Minister She is hiding from the media and hiding from this is living in fantasy land. His figures simply do not add House. We miss her. We have hardly seen her since her up, because 16,000 police officers are going as a result conference fiasco with Catgate. I know she is keen on all of his plans. We have made it clear that pay restraint things feline, but even Macavity used to appear once in was built into the Labour Government’s proposals from a while. We urge her to come back. Once again, we are the beginning and we have supported it since; we need left with the poor old Minister for Policing and Criminal pay restraint to deliver the 12% savings. But if we want Justice, with his smokescreens and his fantasy figures—hung to protect the number of police officers, we need to have out to dry by the Home Secretary again. 12% savings and not 20% savings. The Minister obviously has not been talking to the The Minister will also know that when HMIC carried Prime Minister, because today the Prime Minister claimed out its report that projected that 16,000 officers would that the proportion of front-line police officers has be lost, the pay freeze he introduced was already in increased. Today we heard from the Minister that the place. So HMIC has taken into account his pay freeze number of front-line officers might be cut, but the in saying that 16,000 officers would go and front-line Prime Minister said that the proportion has increased. services would be hit. That is happening across the country. That is not true, is it? I ask the Minister to confirm The right hon. Gentleman needs to get in touch with whether he believes it is true that the proportion of what is happening in police forces across the country, front-line police officers has increased. because his coalition partners and Back Benchers are. What are they saying? Across the country—from London Nick Herbert: I am happy to intervene on the right to Lancashire, from Norfolk to Devon—MPs are hon. Lady at her request. She will find from HMIC’s campaigning against cuts and against station closures. work—she is not on good ground here—that it is Listen to this, from an MP campaigning to stop station discovering, in assessing forces, that the proportion of closures: the policing work force on the front line has increased, 327 Police8 FEBRUARY 2012 Police 328

[Nick Herbert] station between incidents to type up their own case notes because the support staff have gone. Whereas is increasing and will be expected to increase over the those officers would previously have been able to move spending review period. I would not stay on this ground from incident to incident, rapidly responding, they are if I were her. now having to go back into the office to do paperwork instead. Yvette Cooper: Let us look at the published facts from HMIC, which considered the number of police Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): The right hon. officers lost in the first year of this Government. Some Lady has played strongly on the fact that 16,000 police 4,600 police officers were lost in that year, so how many officers are leaving, with 4,000 leaving, as she claims, in were in front-line jobs? According to the Minister, none the past year. How many were past retirement age and of them should have been, but of those 4,600 officers, could therefore choose to go and how many were on nearly 90% were in front-line jobs. Some 4,100 officers active duty, as opposed to light duty in police stations, have gone from front-line jobs—from neighbourhood in which case they would not have been available for policing, CID units and traffic units. Those are the data police commanders to use in proper policing? in HMIC’s own report, and the Minister clearly has not looked at it. Yvette Cooper: HMIC’s assessment was that 4,100 of the 4,600 officers who went in the first year were from Nick Herbert: YesIhave. front-line jobs, according to the definition of front line that HMIC agreed with the Home Office. The hon. Yvette Cooper: If he has looked at it, will he stand up Gentleman also raises an important issue about people and confirm that the HMIC figures show that in the nearing retirement, and he will know that in practice first year of this Government the proportion of front-line chief constables in many parts of the country have been officers fell and 90% of the officers who went were from forced to push officers into early retirement when they front-line jobs? I ask him to confirm those facts from did not want to go. A Staffordshire officer whom I am HMIC. meeting tomorrow has said, “I would not have finished. I am not bitter, but very disappointed. The feeling is Nick Herbert: No, I cannot, as I have already told the that there is no control over the mass exodus of right hon. Lady. experience—it is just going.” That is the reality of what is happening in forces across the country. Yvette Cooper: He says he cannot confirm them, but Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): A number shortly I shall hand him the figures from HMIC. of very experienced officers in the West Midlands force have been told that they must leave, having completed Mr Watts: Isn’t the proof in the pudding? I know their 30 years. Is it not important to bear in mind, from Merseyside that there are fewer police officers and however, what happened in August? Time and again will be fewer in the future. When coalition Members during the terrible days of the riots, people were complaining speak, I will bet that not one Tory MP will be able to get that even with police numbers as they are there were not up and claim that police numbers in his area have not enough police around. They were pleading with the been cut and will not be cut in the future. That will be police to come in. If these cuts take place, if—unfortunately the test. and tragically—we had riots once again, the situation will, as we know, be even worse. Yvette Cooper: My hon. Friend is right. In every force across the country, chief constables have been put in an Yvette Cooper: My hon. Friend makes an important impossible position and as a result they are saying that point. We saw in the capital and major cities across the they have to cut front-line services. That is the impact of country that we needed police officers on the streets to the Government’s decisions. The Minister is not admitting take back the streets, calm the riots and prevent the the facts. He will not stand up again and confirm the damage that was being done, and it took 16,000 officers facts from HMIC, which show that in the first year on the streets of London to calm the tensions and deal more than 4,000 front-line officers have gone from with the violence and the looting. Sixteen thousand front-line jobs. That is the reality of what is happening. officers is the number that this Government are cutting—the equivalent of every one of those police officers that it Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab): Does my right took to calm the streets of London on those awful hon. Friend agree that the lack of candour from the August nights. Government is having a negative impact on police morale? Julie Hilling: Does my right hon. Friend agree that it If the Government do not support them, they are is not only at times of riots, but on a Friday and Saturday, asking, who on earth will? when knife crimes, street robberies and serious crimes of violence are occurring, that we need police officers Yvette Cooper: My hon. Friend is right. The ducking on the front line? Not just at the acute time of riots, but and diving from Ministers shows how out of touch they week in, week out, we need officers on the streets. are with what is happening in police forces and communities across the country. Communities know what is happening, Yvette Cooper: My hon. Friend is right. Communities because they can see it. Police officers are being taken across the country know that. They want officers on the off the front line and the number of uniformed officers streets. They want to see police officers doing the job in working in custody suites, for example, has gone up, not their area. It is communities that will in the end pay the down. In Birmingham, uniformed officers have been price for this Government’s decision. Time and again taken off the front line in order to monitor CCTV and, on Monday the Home Secretary told the House not just in Leeds, police officers are having to go back into the that there was no simple link, but that there was no 329 Police8 FEBRUARY 2012 Police 330 direct link between police numbers and crime, yet look I shall not spend too much time rebutting the number at the evidence from the Government’s favoured think-tank, crunching of the right hon. Member for Normanton, Civitas, which said that Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper). Even her “there is a strong relationship between the size of police forces own party accepts that there must be constraints on and national crime rates...A nation with fewer police is more public spending, and that extends to the police force. likely to have a higher crime rate.” Why? Because as a result of the economic crash in the The Policing Minister sniggers. Will he snigger, too, previous Parliament, this country is now spending at the HMIC, which he quoted today, which said in £120 million a day on debt interest alone. That cannot research published last year that go on and public spending control is something that any “a 10 per cent increase in officers will lead to a reduction in crime responsible Government would have to put in place. of around 3 per cent (and vice versa)”? The police force and the public understand that stark That is the conclusion of the authoritative HMIC analysis fact. I have yet to meet a police officer or a constituent of all the studies and the research that have been done, who thinks the country can afford significant real-terms and this Government decide that they want to cut increases in police services. 16,000 officers at a time when personal crime is already On the total Government grants before us today, we going up by 11%. see that the reduction in Government funding including specific grant allocations will be 4% in 2011-12 and Hugh Bayley: Under the previous Conservative 5% in 2012-13. They will be lower in 2013-14 at 2% and Government the North Yorkshire police received not lower still in 2014-15 with a 1% reduction. Across local one single additional police officer, and crime in our government there has been a reduction in the amount of county almost trebled. Under the Labour Government funding allocated to specific grants, and some of the there were dozens and dozens of additional police specific grants that police authorities have historically officers—more than 140—and crime started to come been used to receiving, such as the crime fighting fund down. Now the police numbers are down by almost and the basic command unit fund, have been absorbed 100 and crime is rising again. Surely that makes the into the police main grant. case. Let us not forget that real-terms gross revenue had increased every year from 1996-97 to 2007-08. Those Yvette Cooper: My hon. Friend is right that we had were very big sustained year-on-year increases. Sadly, thousands more police officers under the Labour they were spending increases that were allocated when Government. We also had a historic 40% reduction in we did not have the money on a sustainable basis. It was crime. a boom time in the economy and the previous Government were spending money that they did not have. The Conservative party used to get it. Here is what the Prime Minister himself wrote in the 2005 election manifesto for the Conservative party: Andrew Percy: My hon. Friend refers to the increases in spending in central Government grant, but does he “Put more police on the streets and they’ll catch more criminals. recognise that much of the increase in spending locally It’s not rocket science, is it?” came directly from local taxpayers through massive No, it is not, yet now the Tory-led Government are increases in the police precept—in my area 500% over doing the opposite. Once the party of law and order, the course of the previous Government—and that, similarly, they are cutting more from the police than from health, is not sustainable and fair on local people? education, local councils or defence—more than from any other service. Personal crime, theft, robbery and Mr Ruffley: Council tax as a proportion of the total violence are up by 11%, police officers down by 16,000— police spend that all police authorities have will be higher crime, fewer police, communities paying the price. about a quarter for 2011. It was half that—12%—in This Government should cut crime instead of cutting 2001-02, so the statistics bear out the experience that police officers, and they should start by going back to my hon. Friend has had in his police authority. the drawing board and voting against these plans today. Returning to the historical increases, there was another interesting statistic that the Home Affairs Committee 1.53 pm calculated. Between 2000 and 2008 the real-terms increase Mr David Ruffley (Bury St Edmunds) (Con): Speaking in total police spending was a whacking 20%, so I as a former special adviser to the Home Secretary at the suggest, and I am sure Government Members would time of the Sheehy reforms in the 1990s and as a agree, that the police are looking at historically high shadow police Minister in the previous Parliament, I real-terms spending figures over the past 10 years, compared think it is worth putting on record that policing is about with what they have ever had in the past. The shadow leadership and that leadership from the top at the Policing Minister is chuntering from a sedentary position. Home Office has indeed been supplied by my right hon. Does he want to intervene? Friend the Home Secretary and her deputy, my right hon. Friend the Minister for Policing and Criminal Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): I am grateful to the Justice. They have shown a great deal of skill in negotiating hon. Gentleman. He will know that there was a a very difficult settlement for the police. The Winsor 43% reduction in the number of crimes and the number review has been an important contribution to getting of victims over that time. The two might well be related. more for less from the police budget. One does not have to talk up the Home Secretary’s book on this; the facts Mr Ruffley: I do not agree with the rather heroic are quite clear. Part 1 of Winsor, which went to arbitration, numbers that the right hon. Gentleman gives for falls in has gone through with the support now of the Police crime, and I would not necessarily attribute that to Federation, and that is no mean feat. brilliant Government policy. I would attribute it to hard 331 Police8 FEBRUARY 2012 Police 332

[Mr Ruffley] was £41.4 million, and fees and other charges were £6.4 million. That means that just over £129 million was work by police officers on the ground. He claims too spent in the current financial year on keeping Suffolk much for himself, but that is not untypical of Labour safe. The savings that the force has made in the past two politicians. years are quite instructive. The actual savings for 2010-11 Funding was made available in the spending review totalled £2.6 million—consider that as a percentage of to help police authorities deliver a council tax freeze in the £129 million spent overall last year—and the forecast 2011-12. Should every authority participate in the freeze, annual savings for the current financial year are even it is estimated that they will receive a total of around higher, at £3.9 million. Projected savings for the four £75 million in each of the next four years to compensate years from 2012-13 to 2015-16 are as follows: £7.3 million, for the income that they would otherwise have raised £3.7 million, 2.3 million and £0.9 million. from council tax increases, and funding for this is Approximately 60% of the savings in Suffolk over the pencilled into the settlement. comprehensive spending review period will be achieved Before moving on from the national police totals, I through collaborative working and better procurement, want to touch briefly on the claim made by the right particularly with Norfolk constabulary. That really bears hon. Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford out the statements that my right hon. Friend the Policing that this is a 20% cut—she is obviously trying to get the Minister made earlier. Suffolk is finding 60% of the soundbite off the runway. I think that she was referring savings not through vicious head count cuts to uniformed to the published grant totals, but were she to look at officers—over half the savings are the result of smarter total police spending and not just the grant figures, thinking, which I think should have been done before which means putting council tax into the equation and now. In the last Parliament the totemic collaborative taking into account the Office for Budget Responsibility’s project was between Essex and Kent, which was the assumptions on forecast levels, she would see that the example everyone cited, but the Norfolk and Suffolk total police budget will clearly reduce spending by the model undoubtedly equals that, because it is delivering end of this Parliament not by 20%, but by 14%, which is the savings that should have been delivered many years ago. much nearer the 12% figure she coughed up for Labour’s What about the number of uniformed officers? This plans. Therefore, we are not too far apart if we look at is extremely politically sensitive—some might even say everything, rather than just the bits of the financial toxic—and much has been made of it by Opposition equation she was inducing us to look at. She gave us Members and Front Benchers. To provide some perspective, only half the picture. in my police authority area the number of full-time equivalent uniformed officers, as at 31 March 2009, was Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (Con): My 1,291. At March 2010 it was 1,246 officers, and in hon. Friend, in making his case, properly draws attention March 2011 it was 1,241. The next set of figures is quite to the 14% real-terms cut, but does he recognise that, instructive. The chief constable argues that by 31 March because of the pay freeze and reforms to police terms 2015, if the one-year council tax freeze grant is accepted and conditions, the actual cut to policing services will from April this year, the number of uniformed officers be significantly less? will be 1,189. Even if the council tax freeze grant is accepted, he predicts a reduction from 1,241 to 1,189. He says that if a council tax increase is approved from Mr Ruffley: I certainly do. My right hon. Friend the April 2012, the reduction would be fewer than 10 officers. Policing Minister gave a tour de force earlier when he If we go the council tax increase route, the number will explained in detail exactly how we might achieve more fall from 1,241 to 1,232. He is arguing, as he has said in for just a little less spending. I reinforce the fact that the regional press, that there will be a reduction in the between 2000 and 2008 there were heroic real-terms number of police officers in Suffolk. increases, and they have not gone away. We are not wiping away from the baseline the very high totals that The figures are not hugely welcome from my point of were accrued, sadly, on the back of money that we view, because I believe neither that we should increase subsequently discovered the country did not really have. council tax in Suffolk, nor that the chief constable Nevertheless, this is by no means some hacking-off-of-limbs needs to reduce the number of officers by the magnitude strategy, and I think that it does a disservice to a grown-up he suggests, and he argues that officers will have to be debate to suggest that it is a bleeding-stump strategy. lost whichever route is taken. I firmly believe, and agree with the Government, that visible policing is not a I would like to say something about my local police direct function of the numbers alone. There is not a force in Suffolk. Suffolk has the second lowest cost per positive correlation of one between the number of head for policing out of the 43 forces in this country. It officers and excellent policing. has an historically low crime rate, because by and large The right hon. Member for Normanton, Pontefract we are a very civilised and well-behaved county, which is and Castleford was perfectly right to say that we needed why I am particularly proud to represent a Suffolk 16,000 officers on the streets when the London riots constituency. I acknowledge that the chief constable, were at their zenith, but those were, by and large, Simon Ash, with whom I have a fruitful and friendly extraordinary events. We certainly did not necessarily dialogue, is concerned about the effect that the spending need more police officers in order to get 16,000 on the constraints we are considering will have on his force. I streets. Many of us thought that rather bad management do not agree with him, but it might be useful to remind by the then leadership of the Met meant that it took ourselves of the composition of police spending in Suffolk. three days or so to get 16,000 uniformed officers on the The general grant from the Home Office and the street. They existed, as we have more than 140,000 Department for Communities and Local Government uniformed officers in Great Britain, so getting 16,000 to Suffolk for 2011-12 was £76.9 million. Specific grants Met officers on the street was not purely a numbers added to that were £4.4 million. The council tax precept game; they were there already. 333 Police8 FEBRUARY 2012 Police 334

Andrew Percy: The shadow Home Secretary’s local key performance indicators, the fatuous local area agreement chief constable at the time of the riots said that the issue targets and the stop and account form, which in fairness was not about numbers, and he went on local TV to say the previous Government had also proposed. that he had no issue with numbers and had, in fact, The current Government have also streamlined stop got enough numbers to “invade a small country”. Those and search procedures. In addition, they have made were his exact words, on Yorkshire TV. changes to health and safety, and in addition to that they have abolished the quite nonsensical target, which Mr Ruffley: My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. police thought unnecessary, of drug tests for 95% of those arrested on trigger offences. That is quite an Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): If impressive reduction of bureaucracy in a first few months, the hon. Gentleman is so clear in his mind that the and there is more. number of police on the streets does not necessarily correlate with the effective combat of crime, will he Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): Does my explain why the Liberal Democrat election manifesto—I hon. Friend agree that the introduction of police and realise he was not responsible for it—promised 3,000 crime commissioners will also bring more rigorous oversight more police on the streets? to police budgets? From the perspective of north Yorkshire, where our local police authority spent £250,000 on legal Mr Ruffley: I am delighted to respond to both points. proceedings against the chief constable, that will be a First, I did not say that the number of police officers welcome move later this year. on the streets does not matter, but I will make it clear that the number of uniformed officers in any force does Mr Ruffley: I am confident—it is my hope and, not equate to the number of police officers on the street; indeed, expectation—that with one person we will engender we absolutely can have more visible police hours on the a greater and sharper sense of focus and accountability, street with a theoretically smaller number of police which we lack under the current regime of 17-person officers, and I shall explain how that comes about. Let police authorities. me repeat: we can have more visible police hours on the street with fewer officers than we have now, and if the Mark Reckless: Is my hon. Friend also aware that in a right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton will bear unanimous report the Home Affairs Committee came with me, I will explain to the House how that is possible. to the same conclusion, supported I believe by its five Secondly, on the Liberal Democrat manifesto, let me Labour members, that a single elected individual, instead say why the party political to-ing and fro-ing is not of a diffuse police authority, will increase the focus on terribly productive or profitable. The right hon. Gentleman’s finding savings and is likely to drive out costs in policing? party is campaigning—it would appear, from today’s debate—against the reductions in policing, which, it Mr Ruffley: Yes, and to those who say that a single says, are cutting the number of uniformed officers and individual will not necessarily have the skills to provide really will not do, but I just remind him of what the leadership and to be a good manager and forensic previous Labour Home Secretary, the right hon. Member accountant, the straightforward rebuttal is that one for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson), would expect someone who was going to be up for said on “The Daily Politics” just before the election. re-election after four years to have their mind focused When he was asked whether Labour could guarantee on what the electorate wanted and to bring in people that the number of police officers would not fall if it who could help with that work. At the end of the day, formed the next Government, he replied really rather the mandate given to an individual, and the knowledge elegantly, that no, he could not guarantee that police that they are accountable to the people, should certainly officer numbers would not fall. Most of us have a great focus the mind—not the minds of 17 people in a diffuse deal of respect for the right hon. Gentleman, who has police authority, but the mind of one individual, who one other virtue, which is clear honesty. He was not will certainly be accountable as police authorities are guaranteeing that more officers would be paid for if not so accountable at the moment. Labour won the election; he was not even promising On the ways in which a smaller number—not a hugely that the same number would be retained. smaller number—of officers can deliver more police I shall explain briefly what I mean by “visible hours hours, I must say that they will be required to spend less on the street”. There is a shocking statistic from Her time during the average shift in a police station and Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary—it was true under more time visibly on the streets. I have said that reducing the previous Government and was still true last year—and bureaucracy is one way in which we can square that it is that at any one time only 11% of the police officers circle, but the Government’s future work, which I know in this country, of whom there are more than 140,000, my right hon. Friend the Policing Minister is driving are available for visible policing on the street. That is an forward personally, involves a streamlined crime recording amazing statistic: only one in 10. procedure. The previous Government undertook such The question is, how can we get more police visible work, to which I shall be generous and pay tribute. on the street, given that there are more than 140,000 of The four-force pilot involving Leicestershire, West them? There are two ways. First, we should reduce Midlands, Shropshire and Surrey created a more bureaucracy. Now, I do not suggest for one second that streamlined and time-efficient way of recording incidents, reducing bureaucracy will make up for the current with police officers given the discretion, over a certain tough public spending round, but the Government have range of offences, to write shorter reports. I should like already taken incredible steps in their first 18 months in to see that regime become absolutely standard throughout office. They have abolished the policing pledge, the the 43 forces, so it would be useful to hear how many public service agreement targets, more than three dozen have adopted it. 335 Police8 FEBRUARY 2012 Police 336

[Mr Ruffley] 2.22 pm

There is more to be done on rolling back statutory Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab): I should say charging. It is ridiculous that for quite a slew of offences to my right hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, a charging sergeant has to ring up the Crown Prosecution Gorton (Sir Gerald Kaufman) that the Policing Minister Service to get permission on some triable-either-way was generous in giving way many times during his offences. It is fair to say that— speech. The debate is of enormous import to the people of this country. A reference was made to chief constables Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I am having said that we had enough police to invade a small very concerned that the hon. Gentleman is in danger of country. My constituents do not want to invade small taking more time than the Front Benchers. That is not countries; they want to feel secure on the streets of good for all those hon. Members who have waited a central Manchester and to know that their policing is long time. We are on a time limited debate, which adequate for their community. finishes at 3.47 pm and we have another 10 speakers to get in, so I hope that he is now coming to the end. The vast majority of my constituents are decent, law-abiding people, but crime is still too high in Greater Manchester. The differential impact of the spending Mr Ruffley: I take note of what you have said, cuts is of itself a matter of enormous concern in a Mr Deputy Speaker, and shall bring my remarks to a community such as mine. To be honest, the perception conclusion; they were coming to a conclusion anyway. is that the patterning of spending on the police is being The second way in which we can get the police to dictated more by political preference than by the objective spend more hours visible and out there, so that people needs of police forces. Government Members have argued are aware that they are around, is greater collaboration. that the cuts are much less, but Her Majesty’s inspectorate I will not repeat some of the initiatives that the of constabulary’s own reference points for Greater Government—this Home Secretary, this Policing Minister Manchester police say that we will lose 20% of our —have driven forward, but that work goes ahead in uniformed police services between 2011 and 2015. Suffolk, delivering the efficiency savings that can be I pay tribute to the Greater Manchester chief constable ploughed back into the front line. As I said, the savings and police authority. Greater Manchester has made could amount to £1.5 billion out of the total police enormous strides in recent years. As my right hon. budget if all the forces became as efficient as the currently Friend the shadow Home Secretary said, it is possible to most efficient one. That money could be ploughed back make reductions in police spending, but it is not possible into the front line to obviate the need for any significant to make indefinite such reductions. That is our problem. reduction in uniformed officers. Crime has been falling. In an earlier exchange, my The message must go forth from this debate that in a right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson), tough economic climate, the spending reductions against the shadow police Minister, rightly made the point that historically high levels of police funding are not fatal to crime fell by 43% during the last Labour Government. the fight against crime. The police must do more with That was a function, at least in part, of the increase in less. The public want them to; they want the police to spending provided by that Government. It is not possible spend more time on the streets and less time behind to say that cutting out 20% of the uniformed police in their desks. In that spirit of cheerful optimism, I commend Greater Manchester will not have a detrimental effect the Government’s policy and announcement today. on the police’s ability to detect and deter crime. One cannot argue about that with reference to efficiency savings. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): I will now have to put a time limit on speeches. I am sorry to hon. Nor is it possible always to use the sleight of hand Members waiting to speak; they must take the matter that says that only the front line matters. If the police up with others. There is now to be a 10-minute limit, are not supported by proper back-room staff—sometimes although that might have to be reduced. uniformed police, sometimes civilian—they simply cannot properly do the job that we expect of them. It is important for us to remember that and to recognise that Sir Gerald Kaufman: On a point of order, Mr Deputy there are strong limits. Speaker. I completely understand what you have just said, but again and again when I come to the Chamber As it happens, and happily, crime has continued to for time-limited debates, I find that huge amounts of fall in Greater Manchester. That is a great tribute to the time are taken. The Minister spoke for three quarters of police service and those involved. However, the real an hour in a three-hour debate. I believe that in future concern is this: a number of things begin to come there should be restraint from Government Front Benchers together. For example, we have seen the continuing rise in time-limited debates. in unemployment. I do not intend to discuss the causes of that. Whatever our arguments about the economy, most people accept that unemployment, a lagging indicator, Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Idonot is likely to continue to rise. We are seeing the largest want to get into an argument about either side. I understand number in a long time of young people unable to find that having a time limit is frustrating. A 10-minute time employment. It is not certain, but we know from historical limit is being imposed. Members making speeches should precedent that that will place pressure on those young take on board the fact that others are waiting to speak. I people in terms of the potential for a rise in certain have brought in the time limit to try to get everybody in. types of crime. Faced with that, police numbers still That is the best that we can do. As I said, the limit may continue to drop, and frankly that is both reckless and have to be reduced even further for later speakers. irresponsible. 337 Police8 FEBRUARY 2012 Police 338

The Policing Minister is bravely sitting alone, a number of reasons. The police rightly believe that they unaccompanied by the Home Secretary and not surrounded are being asked to take not a pay freeze, but a real-terms by his colleagues. He has had to plough through and pay cut, and that problem touches on morale. Perhaps justify the fact that the Home Office caved in to the such measures are needed during this period, but when Treasury when the current comprehensive spending review they are added to the sense of grievance and uncertainty settlement was made. As a consequence, we can ask the felt by the police because of what they—and large police service to make efficiency savings, but that will numbers of the public—regard as the arbitrary nature begin to peter out. of the cuts, they amount to a serious impact on morale In the case of Greater Manchester, we know what which we must register. If we praise our serving police will happen this year and next year; the real concern is officers when, as expected, they take the risks that that 2014-15 will be the point when we fall off the edge society places on them, we as a community and a of the cliff. Neither the Policing Minister nor the Home society must deal with morale when it is a problem. Secretary nor the Prime Minister can give us any kind of reassurance that the police service will not then be in Julian Smith: I have had a contrary experience in my a state of enormous difficulty. constituency. I had a meeting with Inspector Robert Thorpe in Ripon last week. He was relishing the challenge The chief constable of Greater Manchester is already of doing more with less, and looking at productivity on the record as having said that this year’s settlement and at how he could play about with rotas and make his means staff more productive. I pay tribute to his work, and I “the most difficult financial year for policing in living memory”. am sure that there are examples of such work in If this is the most difficult year, but we continue to see Manchester’s police force that the hon. Gentleman will cuts year on year beyond that, we have to ask the highlight later in his speech. Policing Minister and others to look at the situation. I know that he is not in a position to give a commitment Tony Lloyd: Had the hon. Gentleman been listening that the situation will be reviewed, but if that indefinite to my speech, he would have heard that I spoke at the abyss is to open up in front of us, we will have to have beginning about the great strides that have already been change from the Government. There will have to be a made by the chief constable, the police authority and reversal of the speed and depth of the cuts that apply to the police to make the service more efficient. There is no communities across Greater Manchester. doubt that numbers of people have gone, and that that I have said before to the Policing Minister that during process has been managed so far. My argument—the the riots the police force across the country was stretched. hon. Gentleman may wish to ask his own police force Serving police officers rightly went from Greater Manchester about this—is that there is a point beyond which we to help in London. However, that meant that when the cannot go. The loss of 20% of Greater Manchester’s riots broke out in Manchester, some of our officers uniformed police by 2015 and a similar loss in numbers were helping out elsewhere. We had the advantage of of non-uniformed staff cannot happen without its being able to call in police officers from places as far impinging on our ability to provide the visible policing away as Strathclyde, but while the riots broke out in that the Minister and others claim to want. Manchester Central and in Salford, there were strong People in Greater Manchester are desperately concerned rumours that there was the capacity for riots to break that the cuts are too fast and too deep, and that when out elsewhere in Greater Manchester that night. Had push comes to shove, problems will emerge not in the that happened, the already thinly stretched line of police Prime Minister’s constituency but in the inner-city areas officers would have been stretched to the point of there of Manchester, Liverpool and Birmingham, and other being an enormous problem, even with the capacity to equivalent areas. We are not getting the Boris bung that back-fill from other police force areas. the Metropolitan police force has received, and the hon. I do not want to predict a repeat, but notwithstanding Member for Skipton and Ripon (Julian Smith) ought to the Minister’s view that there would not be problems, raise that issue with the Policing Minister. Historically, there is a concern in Greater Manchester that if there the Metropolitan police force has been better funded were a repeat—the riots did come out of nowhere—we than the police in other metropolitan areas, and in a would simply not have the capacity to deal with the difficult financial year and when other metropolitan situation. That issue has to be taken on board. However areas are being denied, it is hard for us once again to see we magic the arithmetic, of the 140,000 police officers London given an increase in spending. These cuts are nationwide, 16,000 needed to be deployed in the capital too fast— to quell the riots. That would have left precious little margin for the rest of the country if things had begun to Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. go wrong elsewhere. In policing our communities we must not only think about what happens on a regular Tuesday morning, but recognise that catastrophes happen. 2.33 pm Those are real issues for us to take on board, whether in Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): I will the west midlands, Greater Manchester and other endeavour to stay well within your time stricture for this metropolitan areas, or in rural areas. debate, Mr Deputy Speaker. I thought that the debate The Minister rightly paid tribute to our serving police on police funding had shifted in recent days, and that officers. During the riots, officers were asked to confront the Labour party had recognised that it supports many rioters and those dangerous situations, and it is easy to of the measures that the coalition Government are say that we expect an enormous amount from the men introducing, such as the pay freeze, reforms to police and women who serve in our police force. At the moment, overtime and the 12% savings as recognised in the however, morale is not good across the police service for HMIC report. We have also heard that the Labour 339 Police8 FEBRUARY 2012 Police 340

[Tom Brake] its impact, particularly on black and ethnic minority communities. It reduces the willingness for there to be party cannot guarantee to restore any of the budget policing by consent in some of those communities. reductions that the coalition Government have had to We need to be able to draw in other resources. There make. are some good examples of that. In Bonnington square, I thought, therefore, that some solutions would perhaps the local community has got together to self-police an be deployed today, that there would be some recognition area where there has been a problem with muggings. that the measures taken and the budget cuts were necessary, That model could be extended. It does not draw heavily and that the Government and the Opposition would try on police resources, apart from there being a need for to find ways of making better use of police resources. the group to have direct contact with the police. If it can Unfortunately, we heard nothing of the sort from the be built on existing community groups, rather than Labour party. It may be that on the Labour Benches requiring groups to be established simply for that purpose, there are prospective candidates for elected police and which may run the risk of vigilantism, that would be a crime commissioners. If they are elected in November, sensible model. Again, that is Brian Paddick’s proposal— they will be responsible for police strategy and budgets. Paddick’s patrols he calls them. It could help us to do Perhaps it is down to them to outline how they would more with less in policing. make better use of police resources, because I am afraid We need better use of existing resources, which is that the shadow Home Secretary, who has just left her what the HMIC report is about. In London, I know place, did not do that in her opening remarks. that our Liberal Democrat colleagues are pressing very hard to get rid of some of the rather generous police This debate should be about how we can make better perks for very senior officers, such as chauffeured cars, use of the resources that there are. I will give a few which would free up some resources to be used more examples of how that can be achieved. I make no effectively. For instance, such resources could be used to apologies for again mentioning the Safer Sutton partnership. support safer neighbourhood teams and ensure that the The Minister has been to see how that works for himself. number of sergeants in them is maintained. It is a fantastic example of the police working closely with the local authority and pooling resources. A concrete My final point brings me back to the fact that we example of that work, which led to a saving and a better should not always assume that a particular policy has a service, was when the local authority stopped providing direct impact in another area. The Government’s work parks police and took on safer neighbourhood teams to on problem families could have a much greater impact work in the parks. The Met was able to police the parks on policing issues than any other measure that they more cheaply than the local authority, and uniformed could take. A focus on the relatively small number of officers performed the roles. That was welcomed across families who, for whatever reason, require more input the board and represented a saving for the local authority. than others from various services could have a really beneficial long-term impact on crime levels. The Government could improve policing by relying more heavily on the evidence of what actually works. We need to shift this debate from what I now Again, I make no apologies for repeating this point in acknowledge was a rather simplistic linear link between the Minister’s presence. Generalisations are often made police numbers and crime levels, and instead consider about what leads to improvements in policing and to what is most effective in preventing and tackling crime. reductions in crime. I had an interesting e-mail exchange with the hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies), who Mr Hanson: I accept what the right hon. Gentleman is not in his place, in which he suggested that the level of is saying, but may I take him back to the debate that we crime dropped significantly as a result of a significant had before the election, when I stood at the Government increase in incarceration. However, the evidence from Dispatch Box and he sat on the Opposition Benches? the US is that, although it has seen a large increase in He argued that the settlement that I had put forward as prison numbers, only 10% of the reduction in crime can Policing Minister was not sufficient, and said that he be attributed to that increase. Far too many simplistic wanted 3,000 more police. What has changed in the conclusions are drawn. We should develop a body of subsequent years that now causes him not to want those research—this is starting to happen—to look at what is police officers? and is not effective. Perhaps we could ensure that it is all held in one place. Chief constables and, when they are elected, police and crime commissioners should have to Tom Brake: I have answered exactly the same question refer to that evidence to see whether it suggests that from the right hon. Gentleman in other debates recently, their proposals will be effective or less effective than and I will give him the same answer as last time. First, they think. the 3,000 police officers were part of a package to be paid for by getting rid of identity cards. Of course, that We should focus on reinforcing policing by consent, element has now understandably been subsumed into which is central to this debate. We can have as many police dealing with the huge deficit that we inherited from his officers as we want, but if there is general dissatisfaction party, which is why we no longer advocate additional or a collapse in discipline, as we saw during the riots, it police. Secondly, that has rightly put pressure on us to will be difficult for the police to manage it. We need to recognise that simple police numbers are not the solution boost people’s confidence in the police to ensure that we and that it is actually about effective deployment. The have policing by consent. That is why the Liberal Democrat coalition Government have recognised that, and the mayoral candidate, Brian Paddick—who I am sure would Liberal Democrats are pressing for it. I wonder whether not be in favour of a bung to Boris, as the Labour party the Labour party might want to follow that approach, has put it—has focused heavily on stop and search and too. 341 Police8 FEBRUARY 2012 Police 342

2.43 pm That is what one of the most outstanding police officers in the entire country has to say. He has a fantastic Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): It record of crime reduction and control, so his views are is undeniable that under this Government, in the year more authoritative than mine or those of anyone else in and three quarters for which they have been in office, the Chamber. the police have suffered serious setbacks in funding and staffing, and are doomed to suffer far more. The excellent Let us look at how other people are feeling about the record of the Greater Manchester police force in crime cuts. I received a letter a few days ago from a police reduction and detection is likely to suffer—it says so constable in my constituency. I will not mention her itself—to the severe detriment of our constituents, whom, name, because I do not have her authority to do so, but in the end, this is about. she wrote: Yesterday evening, the chief constable of Greater “I have great concern in relation to the police pay and condition Manchester came to the House of Commons to brief that I will be victim of this year, paying more in to my pension and working for longer hours for less pay…I work full time hours hon. Members about the situation that Greater Manchester and have a mortgage to pay for, I am genuinely worried about my police faces. We must consider it in the context of the future with the police force and how it’s going to affect my crime reduction figures that it has achieved, which are financial status.” exemplary, with reductions in every category. It is on With sentiments and misgivings of that kind, how can target or within 10% of the target on all the main she and her colleagues be expected to continue to give priority performance measures in the 2011-12 policing their full heart and attention to preventing crime? Of plan. There are excellent prospects of its achieving the course detecting crime is important, and Greater end-of-year target for serious acquisitive crime, domestic Manchester’s figures on that are excellent, but we need burglary, vehicle crime and serious violent crime, and to prevent crime. If we send a police constable who feels good prospects of its doing so for total crime, antisocial like that out on to the streets, she will still work as hard behaviour and theft. as she possibly can. How should we feel about exploiting Greater Manchester police’s detection rates are higher such people and not giving them the recompense and than this time last year in all priority areas, with good recognition to which they are undoubtedly entitled? prospects of its achieving the end-of-year detection The issue is not simply police detection, but, as the targets for serious acquisitive crime, domestic burglary, previous speaker pointed out, social environment. In vehicle crime, serious sexual offences, robbery and rape. constituencies such as mine, where unemployment is at That is what it has achieved. 10.3%, and youth unemployment is twice that, we are forcing kids out on to the streets. The overwhelming Gordon Birtwistle (Burnley) (LD): Will the right hon. majority of young people are decent and law-abiding Gentleman give way? and will never commit a crime, but if they are out on the streets, with no facilities, having been forced out of Sir Gerald Kaufman: I will, although the hon. Gentleman higher education by the abolition of the education has not been here for the debate and has just come into maintenance allowance, they are put in temptation’s the Chamber a few minutes ago. If he wants to intervene way. It is essential that we stop that. on me, he can do so. As the chief constable concurred in our discussion yesterday evening, although the sharp end of policing is Gordon Birtwistle: I am grateful to the right hon. important, so is the social background and context. He Gentleman. I did not intend to intervene in the debate, explained how his people work with social organisations but his comments led me to do so. Should we not both to reduce crime and to reclaim those who have congratulate the chief constable of Greater Manchester committed crimes. If we shove young people into prison police on delivering what he has delivered with less or detention when we could do other things to make money, rather than complain about what is going on them good citizens, they will learn how to be criminals. there? If they are out of prison and not committing offences, they can learn to be good citizens. Sir Gerald Kaufman: The hon. Gentleman could have An organisation in my constituency called Reclaim said that to the chief constable himself if he had bothered does marvellous work to reclaim young people who to turn up for the briefing yesterday evening. have offended and give them socially useful tasks. It The cuts that are going to take place will damage incorporates them into an organisation in which they what Greater Manchester police has been able to achieve. know and respect one another. The police work with There is a shortfall of £134 million over the four years Reclaim, which is one of the most important bodies in to 2014-15, and funding is down for the predictable stopping young people turning away from law and future. Already, there has been a fall of 4% in the order and into crime. I very much hope that its recent number of police officers available to the force, and application for £125,000 from the social action fund, there will be a huge fall from 7,656 to 6,556 by 2015. administered by the Cabinet Office, will be favourably In considering what the feelings of Greater Manchester considered. Money spent on policing is important, and police are, I turn to Inspector Damian O’Reilly, one of I deplore the cuts in the moneys available to spend on the finest police officers in this country. He operates in policing, but money to reclaim young people from my constituency and was the winner of the national potential lives of crime and make them into good, award for community police officer of the year. He valuable, positive citizens with a social commitment is contacted me last evening and told me that I was even more important. welcome to quote him by name. He says that the cuts are The police, and certainly those in Greater Manchester, “cutting away at the muscle of the organisation, not just the do a fine job. They have wonderful connections with the fat…With cuts to pay and conditions we feel really undervalued.” local population. Inspector O’Reilly does “report back” 343 Police8 FEBRUARY 2012 Police 344

[Sir Gerald Kaufman] in my council ward and I—never obsessed about total numbers; we obsessed about getting people on to the meetings, the most recent of which was attended by streets to fight crime. I have the same obsession today. 600 people, which shows the extent to which the police I note the bizarre position of Labour politicians. are connecting with the people in Gorton and the rest of They oppose cuts but have confirmed in the House that my constituency. They do a fine job and deserve far better. they would significantly cut the policing budget. They My constituents want to feel safe when they go out were also very supportive of cuts before the election. In on to the streets and in their homes. That is not being the run-up to the general election, the probation service helped—it is being damaged—by this Government of in Humberside had its budget cut by 20%, but not a cuts and stunts. The chief constable has said how valuable single Labour politician was on the streets in Brigg and co-operation is, and I agree with him. I hope we can Goole or elsewhere in Humberside to criticise that. work together to reduce crime and to give the members Perhaps—heaven forbid—people say one thing in of our police force the confidence that we in the House government and another when they are in opposition. of Commons support them in the essential and often On the previous Labour Government’s record on dangerous work that they do. policing, I was intrigued by the intervention of the hon. Member for York Central (Hugh Bayley), who spoke of 2.54 pm those glory days of policing in North Yorkshire. The Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): This has beauty of being a born-and-bred Yorkshireman—I have been an entertaining and enlightening debate. I apologise lived there all my life—is that I remember seeing on for having to leave it for a short period to attend a lobby. television, during those Labour years, North Yorkshire police force condemning its traffic officers and vehicles I have listened to the debate with great interest. My to the yards because it did not have enough money to gast has been flabbered on occasion as I heard Labour pay for diesel. Back Benchers criticising police cuts, while the shadow Secretary of State confirmed in response to my question Mr Hanson rose— that she would cut my police force were she Home Secretary today. She also said that she would cut the Andrew Percy: I will happily give way to the shadow police force of the right hon. Member for Manchester, Minister—he can tell us whether he is in line with the Gorton (Sir Gerald Kaufman) and every force in the shadow Home Secretary on freezing police pay, because country, with the possible exception of London—although the House is entertained by that spat. she criticised extra funding for London, she also appeared to support it. Mr Hanson: Will the hon. Gentleman check the facts I was staggered to hear some of the things that when he goes to the Library of the House after this Labour Members said, for precisely the reason I highlighted debate? He will find that there were 126,000 police when I intervened on the Minister for Policing and officers in 1997 and 144,000 to 145,000 in 2010, which is Criminal Justice. In 2009, police numbers in my police an increase of about 20,000 police officers on the beat force—Humberside—fell by 137. As I said, we saw not and on the streets. He will also find that there was a a single Labour politician criticising that reduction on reduction in crime of 43% over the period. the streets or in the newspapers. In fact, they made the case for reducing those numbers by stating that reducing Andrew Percy: I am disappointed that the shadow numbers did not necessarily mean reducing the impact Minister did not take that opportunity to explain why of front-line policing. Labour Members now have the the same Labour politicians who now criticise police audacity to go out on the streets in parts of my area— cuts in Humberside failed to utter a word in 2009 about although not in my constituency—gathering signatures the reduction in numbers. I will gladly give way again if for a petition against police cuts. I suspect the petition is he wishes to explain that to the House and my constituents, not quite so honest as to say, “We do not support the who I am sure are watching. Government’s cuts, but we support the Opposition’s I turn to the record of policing and the crime figures, cuts of at least 12%.” which people often bandy around. I am a cynic when it comes to crime figures because I think that what people Tony Lloyd: Did the hon. Gentleman campaign for or see on the ground is different from recorded crime, against the police cuts in the previous Parliament? although I note that I used to criticise crime figures while in opposition and that the Labour party is now Andrew Percy: I was obviously not a Member of the criticising this Government’s crime figures—so perhaps House in the previous Parliament, but I invite the hon. we are all guilty of flip-flopping on this matter. Gentleman to look at my voting record on police motions since I have been a Member. Nevertheless, I recall that when I was a local councillor trying to deal with a significant increase in the number Tony Lloyd: With respect, I asked whether the hon. of recorded cases of antisocial behaviour, police precepts Gentleman campaigned for or against those cuts. He in Humberside rose by 500%, and our local police was outside the House, but he was a candidate. force spent lots of money building police stations for its so-called neighbourhood policing agenda before Andrew Percy: I spent 10 years as a local authority abandoning or having to find alternative uses for them councillor, representing an area in the city of Hull after changing their minds again. where there was a huge increase in antisocial behaviour. I also recall £6 million of Humberside’s policing I spent most of my time campaigning to get more police budget being spent on policing overtime, despite the on the streets. My primary concern throughout was huge waiting list of people wishing to be specials. I visible, effective policing. I suspect that we—my constituents remember chairing the licensing committee when 24-hour 345 Police8 FEBRUARY 2012 Police 346 drinking came in and seeing the huge impact that it had the time, the Labour council in Hull still felt the need to on city centre drinking in the city of Hull, as it was put £1 million of council tax payers’ money into policing. known then. No resources were provided for that. Therefore, there is a role for local authorities. I also recall a huge amount of central control. Despite We have a choice. We can stand up and do the cheap what was said about policing numbers, in the area that I politics, while also wanting to cut the police budget represented and in many rural areas of Humberside, significantly, or we can try to find local solutions. I across east Yorkshire and north Lincolnshire, under would love it if we could pepper money around all over diktats from central Government, policing resources the shop and put police officers on every street corner—we were drawn into Hull city centre and other town centres, would all like that to a lesser or greater extent—but in at the insistence of the Home Office, in order to deal reality policing budgets are under pressure, so we can with volume crime. That left communities such as mine either moan from the sidelines or we can engage with with no police cover during evenings and weekends. our local police forces and local councils, and have them come up with solutions and ways of doing things smarter I question whether these increases in police numbers and more cheaply, and, if necessary, use some of the resulted in an increase in the numbers of front-line additional resources. Local authorities employ thousands officers. Perhaps it is a generational thing, but people of people, and there is the potential for working together always say to me, “You never see a police officer on the more closely than has been the case, although I accept it street.” People said that 10 years ago when I started as a happens in some areas. That will be the challenge for us councillor, but perhaps they said the same thing 10 years all as we move forward. before. Perceptions vary, however, so I note that Labour’s We might not like the position that we are in, but we record on policing and crime might not be quite as know why we are in it, although I have not felt the need presented by some Opposition Members. to remind the House of it. We have to be grown-up It is interesting that the shadow Home Secretary about this. What concerns me most is that by making confirmed that she would cut police budgets across the cheap politics out of it, people are undermining confidence country. That might be some welcome honesty in the in policing, which we all know is very important. politics of the Opposition—we do not often hear much clarity on their budgetary policies. Nevertheless, she 3.6 pm admitted that she would cut the policing budget significantly, so we all seem to agree that we cannot continue to invest Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab): In the same amount of money as we have in the past three August, Birmingham was hard hit by outrageous and years, and that we must find another way forward. unacceptable behaviour that saw communities terrorised, but led by our admirable chief constable, Chris Sims, As the Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice police officers restored order. They were truly heroic. made clear, people need to work more closely together. They were the thin blue line protecting communities Over the past 10 years in one east Yorkshire community, from rioting and robbery. a new fire station, a new ambulance station and a new police station have been built—nobly, perhaps—but What was absolutely wrong, however, was Conservative with public money and in isolation from each other, Ministers returning from holiday in their Bermuda shorts with all the extra costs that that entails. I meet with seeking to take the credit despite having had nothing to some resistance when I talk to the police, because do with the work of restoring order to the streets. What although they talk about wanting to work together was absolutely wrong was crazy talk about baton rounds, more closely, it is always with other police forces. I am water cannon and bringing in the army, which would not sure that they fully understand the need to work have led to a downward spiral into yet further violence. together more closely with other emergency services The police were right to reject such nonsense and instead and local authorities. defend the British model of community policing. They, themselves, have learned painful lessons from history, It always struck me as a bit bonkers that we had a from Scarman, through Macpherson and onwards, that chief executive for the fire authority, a chief executive we can only police the community with the support of for the police authority and different financial officers. the community. It was Chris Sims who said that had it Surely those back-office costs could be merged. My not been for that support, his officers would have struggled chief constable, Tim Hollis, is an excellent chief constable to restore order. and I support a lot of his work in Humberside, but When Labour was in government, we, together with although he is open to working together more closely, it the police, made a real difference—they, on the one concerns me a little that that seems to be about working hand, evolving that unique model of British community with other police forces, because there are real opportunities policing, and us, on the other hand, investing in the to engage with local authorities in order to reduce some police service, resulting in nearly 20,000 additional police of these costs. officers and 16,000 extra police community support Local authorities have a role as well. One of the two officers. The consequence was a 43% reduction in crime. local authorities that I represent, North Lincolnshire We were the first Government in history to leave office council, which, as Members will remember, was the with crime falling rather than rising. only council to go from Labour control to Conservative What is also absolutely wrong—I ask Government control last May—thanks to all the gains in Brigg and Members to search their conscience on this—is to break Goole—is considering using some of the council’s budget a promise. The Liberal Democrat Leader said, “Vote for to support community policing across my area in order me and you will have 3,000 extra police officers on the to meet the policing challenges. Admittedly, that is not beat.” Not one Conservative Member went to his or her new—for several years from 2000, despite the apparently constituents and said, “Vote for me and I’ll cut the fantastic settlement from the Labour Government at number of police officers on the beat.” 347 Police8 FEBRUARY 2012 Police 348

[Jack Dromey] Jack Dromey: With the greatest of respect—I genuinely have great respect for the hon. Gentleman—it is wrong The consequences in the west midlands are serious. to cut the police and then blame them for those cuts. If Twelve hundred police officers are going. We have heard we impose unprecedented cuts at reckless speed, we some creative accounting and fantasy figures, but may force the very best in the leadership of our police service we return to the real world of what is happening at the into a nigh-on impossible situation. They are trying to sharp end? Some 634 officers have gone already, most of manage that deeply difficult situation well, but it is one them forced out under regulation A19, and among that will inevitably lead to perverse outcomes. That is them are some of the most outstanding police officers the simple reality. Instead of quoting inspectors saying, in Birmingham and Britain. There is Tim Kennedy, a “I relish the challenge,” as was done earlier, it is about detective with one of the best records of tackling acquisitive time that this House listened to what is happening at the crime and a high detection rate; Tony Fisher, who put sharp end. Indeed, one of those front-line officers contacted away, first, a robber who had stolen from pensioners at me just yesterday. It was heartbreaking to hear a good cash points for 13 years and then a machete-wielding man who has given all his life to our police service robber of local shops for 17 years; Dave Hewitt, an saying, “I never thought this would happen to me. I was outstanding neighbourhood sergeant; and Mark Stokes, dedicated to the job I was doing. I feel now that I’ve got the acknowledged national expert in designing out crime no alternative but to leave the police service.” on our streets and estates. Sixteen officers are going Let me say this in conclusion. The police do not from the counter-terrorism squad, including the head of always get it right. I think all hon. Members will have counter-terrorism and the head of crime. All are being experience of having to intervene locally, in dialogue forced out against their will. They are some of the best with the police, in response to pressures from the community. officers I have had the privilege of working with—I am However, I know from my experience that what the proud to call them friends—but they are being forced police always do—precisely because they are champions out at the age of 48 or 49. of community policing—is respond. If, however, they To add insult to injury, some of the officers forced get it wrong, of course we should criticise and hold out under A19 were approached after the riots by G4S, them to account. However, today we should also celebrate which was brought in to help deal with the post-riots that British model of community policing. investigations, and asked whether they would like to Back before Christmas, I addressed a rally of 500 police come back and work as a police officer once again, but officers in Birmingham, together with the national chairman this time for G4S, actually costing the taxpayer more. of the Police Federation. As they said, one after the We also had some absurdities, such as when the community other, not in living memory have any Government lost in Quinton was told, “We’ll no longer be able to keep so quickly the support of the police service in Britain. open the front office”—where the public come in and What those officers expressed, one after the other, was interface with the police—“but perhaps we could, if utter dismay. Of course there were concerns about pay you were prepared to man the police station yourselves.” and pensions, but there was also dismay about their Where will it end? Next the Government will be asking fellow officers—their friends—being forced out under local communities to arrest criminals themselves. A19, and them having to work long and hard to We have heard repeatedly from the Government—I compensate. However, those officers also said something quote the Home Secretary—that “We can make all else, and one of them put it very powerfully when he these savings while protecting the front line.” However, said, “Jack, I’ve never felt so downgraded or denigrated let me set out what we have discovered is actually by any Government,” because in the promotion of the happening on the ground, right now, in the west midlands. notion of police commissioners, we have had a constant Thirty-two front-line police officers—some of the best undermining of the police. That is why our message still serving—have been taken off the front line and put today is it is time for the Government to listen to what into the back room, because the police are having to local communities are saying—to think again, to change cope with cuts on an unprecedented scale and at an course, to stop undermining the police. They should unprecedented speed. As a consequence, there are two back the police, not sack the police. detectives in Birmingham South who are off the front line and into the back office; three in Sutton Coldfield—off 3.16 pm the front line, into the back office; four in Birmingham South, Bournville neighbourhood—off the front line, Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con): I, too, into the back office; four in Coventry—off the front want to quote the phrase “not in living memory”. Not line, into the back office; eight in Dudley—off the front in living memory have any Government inherited such a line, into the back office; and 11 in Solihull—off the financial mess as we, this coalition Government, have. front line, into the back office. They include one officer, We have had to take spending decisions very seriously. in Birmingham South, Bournville, who has been taken Opposition Members have made the point that perhaps off the front line and put into a back office to do filing, we ought to share the responsibility, but the point that in the post-riots filing system. should be recognised is that hon. Members all sides would have had to make reductions. Mr Ruffley: I am listening carefully to the hon. The Opposition paint us as though we do not care Gentleman, and I do not doubt that those movements about our police forces, but that is wrong. Devon and to the back office have been made, but that is exactly the Cornwall police force does a very good job with excellent kind of thing that the Government think is wrong. I officers, but we know full well that we cannot carry on wonder whether he could share with us the explanation borrowing £1 in every £4 that we spend. We also know of the chief constable, who is ultimately answerable for that if we do not have a pay freeze for officers, we will that movement of uniformed officers into the back have to reduce their numbers even further, because we office. would not be able to maintain even the current numbers. 349 Police8 FEBRUARY 2012 Police 350

We have to grow up and say what the coalition Government the debate over police numbers, I think we all recognise are saying: yes, police forces do a great job, but we can the huge amount of work being done at a local level. I afford only a certain amount of money. The Labour shall start with a couple of local issues, before moving party makes much of the fact that it spent huge amounts on to the wider national issues. on new headquarters across the country, but they were On the situation in Leicestershire, we will sadly see a not paid for there and then. They are being paid for reduction in the police grant of almost £4 million. now, and will be in the future, adding to public expenditure. When I spoke to Chief Constable Simon Cole this All those points have to be reinforced, because we could morning, he talked about a very complicated formula not carry on as we had been. that first gave us the money but then took it away It is right—my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg because of the dampening down element. He, like every and Goole (Andrew Percy) made this point—that it is police force, will struggle to meet the ambitions that he down to the chief constables and police authorities in and others have to achieve the reductions that the local areas to make reductions where they see fit. It is Government have put in place. also down to the chief constables to ensure that front-line Last Saturday’s events, when the English Defence policing is maintained. I went out with my local police League marched through Leicester, remind us that police officers before the general election, and they said that if authorities struggle not only because of the reductions they make an arrest, they then have to do seven hours of but because of events occurring that cannot be predicted. paperwork. I hope that we are tackling that, and if we I want to pay tribute to Simon Cole and to Leicester’s are not, I am sure that the Minister will tackle it, mayor, Sir Peter Soulsby, for how they handled that because there is no doubt that we can reduce bureaucracy march. The EDL is not welcome in Leicester, but it was and make much better use of police time. We have to given the opportunity to march because we believe in accept that there is not the money in the Exchequer or the fundamental principles of freedom of speech. The anywhere else, whoever had got into power, because it fact is that the 2,000 police officers who came out on to was all wasted by the previous Government. That is why the streets will cost £800,000. With the possibility of an we have to take these actions. I would much prefer it if, EDL march in Leeds, the people of Leeds—in the end, instead of trying to pull apart what we are sensibly it is the taxpayer who will pay—are going to have to pay trying to do, the Opposition came to this Chamber with another large sum. When I intervened on the Minister, I some genuinely concrete proposals for how we can know he said that applications for a special grant can be move forward together. made, and we will ask him to help us with these costs, I want to see as many community police officers out because these are not costs of our making; we had to on the beat as possible. Indeed, every time the chief police that demonstration. constable walked into a police station and found a lot of My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Erdington police officers there, would it not be a good idea—I alluded to the recent riots, which reminded me that know that some chief constables are doing this—if he local police forces have been left with a shortfall. I have asked why they were there and not out on the beat, figures for the Metropolitan police. I am told that costs policing and catching criminals, which is what we put under the Riot (Damages) Act 1886 will be £198 million, them there for? There is a great deal more that can be with a further £78 million for operational policing done. There are many great police officers and very costs; yet the Home Office will pay only £100 million good police constables in this country, but we have to and £52.7 million for the policing costs, so there is a find the very best practices to get value for money. In shortfall of about £20 million for the Metropolitan the end, that is what it is about—value for money. The police. I hope that the Minister will give some reassurance last Government were not about value for money; they to areas such as Birmingham, and to a lesser extent to were about throwing money around. Some of it went to Leicester, where there were disorders rather than huge the right places and some of it to the wrong places. Now riots, but most particularly to London, that help will be we have to pick up the cudgel and make the money we forthcoming from the Home Office, as the Prime Minister have go further. promised when I put the point to him during his statement I look forward to the police looking at how they just after the riots. He said that the Government would spend their budget. I think there is no need for big meet the costs of all the extra issues that arose as a front-line cuts. If it is looked at dramatically and properly, result of the riots; I can give the Minister the Hansard we can police ourselves in the future very well. Yes, our extract if necessary. constituents and the residents of our towns and villages I do not want to talk about numbers, as the issue has are concerned about policing and crime statistics; they been well rehearsed eloquently by right hon. and hon. are always conscious of crime. Whatever side of the Members of all parties, particularly by the shadow House we are on, we all know that. What the Government Home Secretary and the Minister. What I want to talk will do is ensure that they put the money in the right about is procurement, as this is an area in respect of places so that policing carries on and we keep the crime which there will be common cause. IT procurement statistics where they are and, hopefully, lower them in costs the public £1.2 billion annually. The Minister has future, but at a rate that the country can afford, unlike told us that the Government are keen to ensure that under the last Government. savings are made. Forces currently have 2,000 separate and bespoke information and communication technology 3.21 pm systems that are serviced by 5,000 different members of Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): It is a pleasure to staff. follow the hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton The National Audit Office recently published a report (Neil Parish). Both he and my hon. Friend the Member on the use of mobile phones, and I declare an interest in for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey) spoke having a BlackBerry, although I am not certain that I passionately about their local areas. Notwithstanding use all its features. However, in my conversations with 351 Police8 FEBRUARY 2012 Police 352

[Keith Vaz] the Minister for Europe so I did not have a chance to be in the Home Office. My right hon. Friend the Member the BlackBerry people, they assure me that the BlackBerrys for Delyn (Mr Hanson) did a great job as a Minister, they have given to South Yorkshire police, for example, but this is a difficult task, as he will tell us. have resulted in savings of £6 million. This is not rocket science. It was a recommendation of the Select Committee Mr Ruffley: The right hon. Gentleman’s Committee in November 2008 when we said that sufficient funding has done much under his leadership to raise awareness should be of the efficiencies that can be delivered by police forces “made available as soon as possible to enable all frontline officers from existing budgets. When he talks about mandating to have access to” collaboration, is he suggesting that the whole of England hand-held devices. We talk about waste and procurement; and Wales should be divided up and that every force that would have saved a huge amount of money. We still should be mandated to collaborate with a neighbouring face a situation in which police officers of different force or neighbouring forces? police forces are buying these services from different suppliers and are operating different devices. Keith Vaz: It could be that; of course legislation I understand that the system in South Yorkshire—I allows that to happen. The Minister has told us what he am sure the Minister will be familiar with it—allows the did about helicopters with the National Police Air individual police officer to access the police national Service. As I remember, South Yorkshire did not want computer, the warrants database, the electoral roll, to share its helicopters but the Government said, “You command and control, case study records, intelligence have to share, because a helicopter is quite an expensive briefings, crime tasking, electronic witness statements piece of equipment.” I do not care where it is done, and and shift briefing. That is the sort of thing we need to I do not think we should hang ourselves on a hook as give our police officers so that they do not spend their far as who should say what, but it is common sense to time dealing with the bureaucracy of which the hon. be in a position where we can do this. I think Dame Member for Tiverton and Honiton spoke. We are all Helen Ghosh gets it, and that is why the Committee will against bureaucracy; who wants the police to be filling interview her on a regular basis about her commitment in lots of pieces of paper? to procurement. We want to see not just the kind of If we look at new technology—I do not know whether savings we have had so far, but much bigger savings. a mobile phone is described as such these days—I Finally, let me speak about police pay and conditions. believe this is the way for us to go forward. Nineteen We all have huge admiration for the police. Tom Winsor forces have mobile phones for fewer than 50% of their will be appearing before the Home Affairs Committee officers, and according to the National Audit Office shortly, and I think the Minister needs to take the only one in five use it effectively. We give out the temperature of the Police Federation and ordinary police equipment, but perhaps do not train officers as effectively officers. He meets them every day and sees them on as we should. many occasions, so I cannot lecture him about this, but I am all for the Minister mandating collaboration. I morale is very low and I think that Mr Winsor has gone know that the Home Office and central Government too far. We need to be very careful when we deal with are reluctant to tread on the toes of individual chief police pay and conditions. The previous Labour constables, but police and crime commissioners are Government got it wrong—Jacqui Smith got it wrong going to be introduced in November, and I hope they and so did my right hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy will have a leading role to play on procurement. We and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown)—when they did not need to be in a position not to allow all 43 forces to buy allow the pay rise that the police ought to have been their own equipment. The Minister was here for Prime given when the arbitration committee decided that they Minister’s questions when my hon. Friend the Member should have that pay rise. This time, we should make for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Andrew Miller) raised sure that we carry police officers with us in making the the issue that four police authorities were buying Hyundai massive changes that the Government are putting in police cars. Of course, my hon. Friend’s point was place. That is vital because this is the biggest change to about British jobs given that they come from North the policing landscape we have seen in this country Korea, but I saw the issue as being primarily one of why since Sir Robert Peel’s time. all our police cars are not the same; I wondered why, We should remunerate the police well, we should not when I went to Kent, there was a different make of be mean and vindictive to them and we should not get police car from those I saw in Leicestershire. This is a no rid of the most experienced officers. That is something brainer. we are seeing in this House, as my hon. Friend the I am pleased with what the permanent secretary at Member for Birmingham, Erdington mentioned, where the Home Office said. I was glad when she was not some of our most experienced people are being told appointed the head of the home civil service—not because they have to go. When I say in this House, I do not mean I do not think she is capable, as I think she is an Members of the House, luckily, as I have been here a extraordinarily capable woman, but because I think the long time, but those who guard the Palace of Westminster. permanent secretary to the Home Office is a big job to We need to value that experience. I hope that the do. When she came before the Committee she talked Minister will look again at pay and conditions and will about the so-called Argos catalogue—her choice of try to bring Mr Winsor under a little bit of control. We shop; I do not know whether Dame Helen goes there are dealing not with railways—I know Mr Winsor was regularly. We have been pushing for a long time for a the rail regulator—but with real people in real jobs who catalogue with nationally agreed prices from which protect our constituents. They are the people we lionise everyone buys. Why the previous Labour Government in times of crisis, and we should reward them properly did not do that, I do not know. My defence is that I was for the work they do. 353 Police8 FEBRUARY 2012 Police 354

3.32 pm from their budget, they will cut a further £38 million from it next year, and they will cut £126 million over the Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): I four-year period. begin by apologising, Mr Deputy Speaker, for not being here for the whole debate, as I have had duties elsewhere I do not know how many major organisations policing in the House today. an area of the size that the West Midlands authority is The problem with the police settlement is that it required to police could easily cut £126 million from repeats a pattern that is becoming familiar: there is a their budgets over a four-year period without making sense that a streak of unfairness runs through whatever any impact on the service that they provide, but I should the Government turn their hand to, and that far from us be interested to hear from any such organisation. What all being in it together, there are very clear sets of I do know is that 80% of the police budget is made up of arrangements that favour some at the expense of others. pay, and that if cuts on this scale must be made, jobs Let me take the example of the Met, which we all accept will inevitably be cut. That is obvious to most people. faces enormous pressures. It is about to be given £90 million The fact that a Prime Minister can stand here and of additional funding, which is enough to recruit about pretend that there is an increase in policing on our 1,000 additional officers, to help with its extra responsibilities streets when everyone’s experience is to the contrary next year. I do not deny that the Met will have extra beggars belief. responsibilities, but neither has it escaped my attention, Moreover—we have put this to the Minister or the attention of a number of my constituents, that repeatedly—because the cuts are front-loaded, they will the Conservative party and Boris Johnson have an limit the capacity for efficiency gains and business election battle to face this year. That might well be transformation. Those things could be achieved, and, influencing some of these decisions. indeed, West Midlands police are working towards achieving I would like the Minister to tell me why we in the west them. As far as I am aware, there is no sense that people midlands do not need extra money next year. We have a in the west midlands do not want change, but some visit from the Queen as part of the diamond jubilee, change takes time, especially if it is intended to deliver which will require additional policing, and we have efficiency gains, and this change cannot be achieved Jamaican independence day.There is a significant Jamaican within the time scale that the Minister is forcing on population across the west midlands and many events those people. are planned that will require policing. In Birmingham there will be an all-day market in the city centre, which It is also not true that people in the west midlands do will require additional policing. Birmingham is to host not accept that there is an argument for cuts. Even the the Jamaican and United States Olympic athletics teams, chairman of the West Midlands Police Federation has and that will require additional security and policing. stated clearly that, while recognising that 12% cuts will West Midlands police are engaged in the advance policing pose a challenge, he does not believe that they will have for Euro 2012, and the further England progresses in an immediate impact on front-line policing. However, the tournament, the greater will be their commitment. he knows from experience and from his contact with his members—real police officers on the ground—that 20% cuts Why are we in the west midlands not entitled to some will pose an enormous challenge, and that it will not be additional funding for those commitments when the possible to make them without cutting front-line services. Met’s position has been recognised and provided for? Why should I be told that I am wrong to draw a We need a bit more fairness in the way the money is comparison with what is happening in the context of shared around. If there are going to be cuts, then we the London mayoral election? I ask those questions should all be in this together, and the people of the west because they are the questions that my constituents are midlands have as much entitlement to policing and asking me. They tell me that it is not fair. They do not recognition of the policing challenges facing them as do think that we are all in it together; they think that they the people living in the Met area. The Minister must have been singled out for worse treatment than the look again at the impact on the front line in Birmingham Government are prepared to give the Met. The Minister and the rest of the west midlands. The transformations knows perfectly well—because a delegation of west that he says he wants could be effected if he were to midlands Members of Parliament went to see him last permit more time and space for the job to be done year—that the West Midlands force is underfunded, properly. and that if the police formula were applied fairly, we would receive a substantially larger grant than we are The Select Committee on Home Affairs has been receiving now. conducting an inquiry into the private investigator business. It is unregulated, and it is clear that as the police are As my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, forced to withdraw from certain areas of life, the private Erdington (Jack Dromey) pointed out earlier, there is a sector will move in. That could make the situation recruitment freeze in the west midlands. According to worse, not better. the latest estimate, by 2015 we shall have lost about 2,764 jobs, which is 450 more than the Minister would Has the Minister had a chance to look at the allegations have been aware of at the time of the original projections. coming out of Birmingham that the private sector has That means the loss of about 1,165 officers, 122 police withdrawn from running Birmingham prison and has community support officers and 1,477 ancillary staff. handed it over to two major gangs who have transferred By March 2012, there will have been 88 compulsory their business from the streets of Birmingham to the redundancies. It is simply not true that that is not a prison’s cell blocks and landings? The people of the problem, or that the situation can be easily managed. It west midlands are certainly not asking for that kind of is certainly not true that the West Midlands police unregulated private sector. They are not against change, authority and the chief constable have not been trying but they want change that is managed, fair and reasonable, to deal with the problem. They have cut £40 million and that will deliver security and safety. We will not get 355 Police8 FEBRUARY 2012 Police 356

[Steve McCabe] crime fell by 43% under Labour. The Government settlement takes £700 million out of policing. This it at this pace and with this level of cuts, and with unfair House should oppose it. The Opposition will certainly advantages being given to the Met because other people do so. have other issues on their minds.

3.44 pm 3.41 pm Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): I am glad that we Nick Herbert: I congratulate the shadow Minister on have had this debate. As there are merely two minutes his two-minute speech. I am sorry that the shadow for each Front-Bench spokesman to respond, I will just Home Secretary did not allow him to do more and lead reiterate the key points that have been made. the debate, as has been the tradition in this place. We are calling for the Government to reopen the I strongly agree with the Chairman of the Home Home Office funding settlement for police forces across Affairs Committee, the right hon. Member for Leicester England and Wales. As has been made clear in the East (Keith Vaz), about the opportunity in respect of contributions of my hon. Friend the Member for procurement. Last year, we put in place the first mandatory Manchester Central (Tony Lloyd), my right hon. Friend framework, covering some key services, including police the Member for Manchester, Gorton (Sir Gerald Kaufman) cars, body armour and a wide range of commodity IT and my hon. Friends the Members for Birmingham, hardware and software. This will ensure that all forces Erdington (Jack Dromey) and for Birmingham, Selly use the specified frameworks—the right hon. Gentleman’s Oak (Steve McCabe), we do not believe that this settlement “shopping list”—so the full potential for savings in is sufficient to meet the needs of policing in the 21st these categories, £27 million, can be achieved by 2014-15. century. Speaking from the Government Benches, the We are consulting on going further to specify frameworks hon. Members for Bury St Edmunds (Mr Ruffley), for used by the service when buying further equipment, Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy) and for Tiverton and including vehicle light bars, digital interviewing equipment, Honiton (Neil Parish) hold a different view, which I translation services, mobile telephony and some respect but disagree with. e-consultancy. Savings of £34 million so far are projected to rise to £70 million by the end of this financial year, The Labour party supports reductions of 12%, which rising, as I said, to at least £200 million by 2014-15. HMIC recognises as deliverable. We are not against collaboration on voluntary mergers, overtime reductions That is a really good example of what can be achieved, and procurement of cars, uniforms, IT and air support, and it is noticeable that, with the exception of the right nor are we against deployment changes or the paperwork hon. Member for Leicester East, no Opposition Member challenge. What we are against are the Government’s talked about any of those issues. It was my hon. Friends proposed cuts, which will lead to 16,000 police officer who raised deployment issues—how well resources can posts being lost and take some £700 million out of next be spent—and who talked about the things forces can year’s policing budget for England and Wales—and it do to adjust to the lower spending and to continue to has been signalled that there will be still further cuts in deliver a high-quality service. Opposition Front Benchers future years. The Minister knows that that will have a continue to make absolutely no mention of these issues. dramatic impact; no amount of smoke and mirrors will We know now that they support the police arbitration hide the fact that there will be a real and deep cut in the tribunal report, the pay freeze, the overtime measures policing grant in England and Wales. and the cuts they are criticising, but they have nothing to say about procurement, outsourcing and whether it is The Minister need not listen to me; I am a Labour right to bring performance up to the standard of the politician, after all—the former Minister now supporting best. Their mantra is—to use the shadow Minister’s my right hon. Friend the shadow Home Secretary. words—to call on us to reopen the settlement. It is the However, he should listen to the chief constable of same old story: calling on us to spend more money, and Kent, who says: that is exactly what got the country into this mess in the “The cuts, if they are 20%, will take us back to 2001 so that’s first place. quite a significant drawback into police numbers.” Question put, The Minister should listen to the chief constable of Manchester who said that the current financial year is The House proceeded to a Division. “the most difficult financial year for policing in living memory.” The Minister should listen to the chief constable of Mr Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con): On a point Gloucestershire who said: of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I am not sure whether you are aware of the fact, but one of the lifts on the “Here in Gloucestershire we are potentially in the middle of the perfect storm”, Committee corridor is not working and that is leading to a long queue of Members seeking to arrive in the and added that it takes Lobby. I wonder whether you would consider extending “us to a metaphorical cliff-edge more quickly than others.” the time available for this Division. The Minister should also listen to the chief constable of Dyfed Powys, who says that Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I thank the “nobody should be under any illusions, we still have to cut costs right hon. Gentleman for his point of order. I certainly significantly but at least the 5% increase in the precept would will take that into account before I ask for the doors to mean our situation won’t get any worse.” be locked. I appreciate that not every Member is as When Labour left office, police numbers were at athletic as he is. He was able to sprint his way to the record levels—there were 16,500 more officers than in Chamber, but I will make allowances for the less 1997 and there were also 16,000 new PCSOs—and athletic. 357 Police8 FEBRUARY 2012 Police 358

The House having divided: Ayes 298, Noes 228. Horwood, Martin Ollerenshaw, Eric Division No. 469] [3.46 pm Howell, John Ottaway, Richard Hughes, rh Simon Paice, rh Mr James Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Parish, Neil AYES Huppert, Dr Julian Patel, Priti Adams, Nigel Doyle-Price, Jackie Hurd, Mr Nick Paterson, rh Mr Owen Afriyie, Adam Drax, Richard Jackson, Mr Stewart Pawsey, Mark Aldous, Peter Duncan, rh Mr Alan James, Margot Penning, Mike Amess, Mr David Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Javid, Sajid Penrose, John Andrew, Stuart Dunne, Mr Philip Jenkin, Mr Bernard Perry, Claire Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Ellis, Michael Johnson, Gareth Phillips, Stephen Bacon, Mr Richard Ellison, Jane Johnson, Joseph Pincher, Christopher Baker, Steve Ellwood, Mr Tobias Jones, Mr David Poulter, Dr Daniel Baldry, Tony Elphicke, Charlie Jones, Mr Marcus Prisk, Mr Mark Baldwin, Harriett Eustice, George Kawczynski, Daniel Pritchard, Mark Barclay, Stephen Evans, Graham Kelly, Chris Pugh, John Barker, Gregory Evans, Jonathan Kirby, Simon Randall, rh Mr John Barwell, Gavin Evennett, Mr David Knight, rh Mr Greg Reckless, Mark Bebb, Guto Fabricant, Michael Kwarteng, Kwasi Redwood, rh Mr John Beith, rh Sir Alan Farron, Tim Laing, Mrs Eleanor Rees-Mogg, Jacob Benyon, Richard Featherstone, Lynne Lamb, Norman Reid, Mr Alan Beresford, Sir Paul Field, Mark Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Berry, Jake Foster, rh Mr Don Latham, Pauline Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Bingham, Andrew Fox,rhDrLiam Laws, rh Mr David Robertson, Mr Laurence Binley, Mr Brian Freer, Mike Lee, Jessica Rosindell, Andrew Birtwistle, Gordon Fullbrook, Lorraine Leech, Mr John Rudd, Amber Blackman, Bob Gale, Sir Roger Leslie, Charlotte Ruffley, Mr David Blackwood, Nicola Garnier, Mr Edward Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Russell, Sir Bob Blunt, Mr Crispin Garnier, Mark Lewis, Brandon Rutley, David Boles, Nick Gauke, Mr David Lewis, Dr Julian Sanders, Mr Adrian Bone, Mr Peter George, Andrew Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Sandys, Laura Bottomley, Sir Peter Gibb, Mr Nick Lilley, rh Mr Peter Scott, Mr Lee Bradley, Karen Gilbert, Stephen Lloyd, Stephen Selous, Andrew Brady, Mr Graham Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lord, Jonathan Shapps, rh Grant Brake, rh Tom Glen, John Loughton, Tim Sharma, Alok Bray, Angie Goldsmith, Zac Luff, Peter Shelbrooke, Alec Brazier, Mr Julian Goodwill, Mr Robert Lumley, Karen Shepherd, Mr Richard Bridgen, Andrew Graham, Richard Macleod, Mary Skidmore, Chris Brine, Steve Grant, Mrs Helen Main, Mrs Anne Smith, Miss Chloe Brooke, Annette Gray, Mr James Maude, rh Mr Francis Smith, Henry Browne, Mr Jeremy Grayling, rh Chris May, rh Mrs Theresa Smith, Julian Bruce, Fiona Green, Damian Maynard, Paul Soames, rh Nicholas Buckland, Mr Robert Greening, rh Justine McCartney, Jason Soubry, Anna Burns, Conor Grieve, rh Mr Dominic McCartney, Karl Spencer, Mr Mark Burns, rh Mr Simon Griffiths, Andrew McIntosh, Miss Anne Stanley, rh Sir John Burrowes, Mr David Gummer, Ben McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Stephenson, Andrew Burstow, Paul Gyimah, Mr Sam McPartland, Stephen Stevenson, John Burt, Lorely Halfon, Robert McVey, Esther Stewart, Bob Byles, Dan Hammond, rh Mr Philip Menzies, Mark Stewart, Iain Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Hammond, Stephen Mercer, Patrick Stewart, Rory Carmichael, Neil Hancock, Matthew Metcalfe, Stephen Stride, Mel Carswell, Mr Douglas Hancock, Mr Mike Miller, Maria Sturdy, Julian Cash, Mr William Hands, Greg Mills, Nigel Swales, Ian Chishti, Rehman Harper, Mr Mark Milton, Anne Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Chope, Mr Christopher Harrington, Richard Moore, rh Michael Swinson, Jo Clappison, Mr James Hart, Simon Mordaunt, Penny Swire, rh Mr Hugo Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Harvey, Nick Morgan, Nicky Syms, Mr Robert Collins, Damian Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Morris, Anne Marie Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Colvile, Oliver Hayes, Mr John Morris, David Teather, Sarah Cox, Mr Geoffrey Heald, Oliver Morris, James Timpson, Mr Edward Crabb, Stephen Heath, Mr David Mosley, Stephen Tomlinson, Justin Crockart, Mike Heaton-Harris, Chris Mowat, David Tredinnick, David Crouch, Tracey Hemming, John Mulholland, Greg Truss, Elizabeth Davey, Mr Edward Henderson, Gordon Mundell, rh David Turner, Mr Andrew Davies, David T. C. Hendry, Charles Munt, Tessa Uppal, Paul (Monmouth) Herbert, rh Nick Murray, Sheryll Vaizey, Mr Edward Davies, Glyn Hinds, Damian Murrison, Dr Andrew Vara, Mr Shailesh de Bois, Nick Hoban, Mr Mark Neill, Robert Vickers, Martin Dinenage, Caroline Hollingbery, George Newmark, Mr Brooks Walker, Mr Charles Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hollobone, Mr Philip Newton, Sarah Walker, Mr Robin Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Holloway, Mr Adam Nuttall, Mr David Walter, Mr Robert Dorries, Nadine Hopkins, Kris Offord, Mr Matthew Ward, Mr David 359 Police8 FEBRUARY 2012 Police 360

Watkinson, Angela Willott, Jenny Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Owen, Albert Weatherley, Mike Wilson, Mr Rob Hoey, Kate Pearce, Teresa Webb, Steve Wollaston, Dr Sarah Howarth, rh Mr George Perkins, Toby Wharton, James Wright, Jeremy Hunt, Tristram Pound, Stephen Wheeler, Heather Wright, Simon Irranca-Davies, Huw Qureshi, Yasmin White, Chris Yeo, Mr Tim Jackson, Glenda Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Whittingdale, Mr John Young, rh Sir George James, Mrs Siân C. Reed, Mr Jamie Wiggin, Bill Zahawi, Nadhim Jamieson, Cathy Reeves, Rachel Williams, Mr Mark Jarvis, Dan Reynolds, Jonathan Williams, Roger Tellers for the Ayes: Johnson, rh Alan Riordan, Mrs Linda Williams, Stephen James Duddridge and Johnson, Diana Robertson, John Williamson, Gavin Mark Hunter Jones, Graham Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Jones, Helen Rotheram, Steve NOES Jones, Mr Kevan Roy, Lindsay Jones, Susan Elan Ruddock, rh Dame Abbott, Ms Diane David, Mr Wayne Jowell, rh Tessa Joan Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Davidson, Mr Ian Joyce, Eric Sarwar, Anas Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Davies, Geraint Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Seabeck, Alison Alexander, Heidi Davies, Philip Keeley, Barbara Shannon, Jim Ali, Rushanara De Piero, Gloria Khan, rh Sadiq Sheerman, Mr Barry Allen, Mr Graham Denham, rh Mr John Lammy, rh Mr David Sheridan, Jim Anderson, Mr David Dobbin, Jim Lavery, Ian Shuker, Gavin Ashworth, Jonathan Dobson, rh Frank Lazarowicz, Mark Simpson, David Austin, Ian Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Leslie, Chris Skinner, Mr Dennis Bailey, Mr Adrian Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Lewis, Mr Ivan Slaughter, Mr Andy Bain, Mr William Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Lloyd, Tony Smith, rh Mr Andrew Balls, rh Ed Doran, Mr Frank Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Smith, Angela Barron, rh Mr Kevin Dowd, Jim Long, Naomi Smith, Owen Bayley, Hugh Doyle, Gemma Lucas, Caroline Spellar, rh Mr John Beckett, rh Margaret Dromey, Jack Mactaggart, Fiona Straw, rh Mr Jack Begg, Dame Anne Dugher, Michael Mahmood, Mr Khalid Stuart, Ms Gisela Bell, Sir Stuart Durkan, Mark Mahmood, Shabana Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Benn, rh Hilary Eagle, Ms Angela Malhotra, Seema Tami, Mark Benton, Mr Joe Eagle, Maria Marsden, Mr Gordon Thomas, Mr Gareth Berger, Luciana Edwards, Jonathan McCabe, Steve Betts, Mr Clive Efford, Clive Thornberry, Emily McCann, Mr Michael Timms, rh Stephen Blackman-Woods, Roberta Elliott, Julie McCarthy, Kerry Trickett, Jon Blears, rh Hazel Ellman, Mrs Louise McClymont, Gregg Turner, Karl Blenkinsop, Tom Engel, Natascha McDonagh, Siobhain Twigg, Derek Blomfield, Paul Esterson, Bill McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Twigg, Stephen Blunkett, rh Mr David Evans, Chris McDonnell, John Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Field, rh Mr Frank McGovern, Jim Umunna, Mr Chuka Brown, Lyn Fitzpatrick, Jim McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Vaz, rh Keith Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Flello, Robert McKechin, Ann Vaz, Valerie Brown, Mr Russell Flint, rh Caroline McKenzie, Mr Iain Walley, Joan Bryant, Chris Flynn, Paul McKinnell, Catherine Watts, Mr Dave Buck, Ms Karen Fovargue, Yvonne Michael, rh Alun Whitehead, Dr Alan Burden, Richard Francis, Dr Hywel Miliband, rh David Wicks, rh Malcolm Byrne, rh Mr Liam Gapes, Mike Miller, Andrew Williams, Hywel Campbell, Mr Alan Gilmore, Sheila Mitchell, Austin Williamson, Chris Campbell, Mr Gregory Glindon, Mrs Mary Morden, Jessica Wilson, Phil Campbell, Mr Ronnie Goggins, rh Paul Morrice, Graeme Wilson, Sammy Caton, Martin Goodman, Helen (Livingston) Winnick, Mr David Chapman, Mrs Jenny Greatrex, Tom Morris, Grahame M. Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Clark, Katy Green, Kate (Easington) Wood, Mike Clarke, rh Mr Tom Griffith, Nia Mudie, Mr George Clwyd, rh Ann Gwynne, Andrew Woodcock, John Murphy, rh Mr Jim Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Coaker, Vernon Hain, rh Mr Peter Murphy, rh Paul Wright, David Coffey, Ann Hamilton, Fabian Murray, Ian Wright, Mr Iain Connarty, Michael Hanson, rh Mr David Nash, Pamela Cooper, Rosie Harman, rh Ms Harriet O’Donnell, Fiona Tellers for the Noes: Cooper, rh Yvette Harris, Mr Tom Onwurah, Chi Mr David Hamilton and Corbyn, Jeremy Havard, Mr Dai Osborne, Sandra Mark Hendrick Crausby, Mr David Healey, rh John Creasy, Stella Hepburn, Mr Stephen Cryer, John Hermon, Lady Question accordingly agreed to. Cunningham, Mr Jim Heyes, David Resolved, Cunningham, Tony Hillier, Meg That the Police Grant Report (England and Wales) for 2012-13 Dakin, Nic Hilling, Julie (HC 1797), which was laid before this House on 31 January, be Danczuk, Simon Hodge, rh Margaret approved. 361 8 FEBRUARY 2012 Local Government Finance 362

Local Government Finance Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab): The right hon. Gentleman talks about transparency, and Nottingham city council should indeed publish that information, but 4.1 pm does not he understand why local government gets a little cross when he and his colleagues lecture everyone The Minister for Housing and Local Government (Grant on transparency but do not apply it to information on Shapps): I beg to move, their ministerial hospitality and gifts? Can he explain That the Referendums Relating to Council Tax Increases why the latest such information published on his (Principles) (England) Report 2012-13, which was laid before this Department’s website, which I visited yesterday, is for House on 31 January, be approved. eight months ago, even though it is meant to be published That the Local Government Finance Report (England) 2012-13 every three months? (HC 1801), which was laid before this House on 31 January, be approved. Grant Shapps: First, the whole House will have noted Over recent weeks my colleagues and I have had that for the first time, as far as I am aware, a Labour many conversations with local government. We have Front Bencher has deplored Nottingham city council’s spoken to individual authorities, the Local Government failure to publish its information transparently. Secondly, Association, London Councils and other representatives. it is absolutely right to say that we have decided to They bring a degree of realism about public finances publish everything as openly as possible, including not which is sometimes absent from the House. They know only all expenditure over £500, but every penny of that local authorities account for more than a quarter expenditure under £500. The next set is about to be of total Government spending, and that tackling the released, as publication is on a six-monthly timetable. record deficit is the responsible thing to do. They know Many councils have made excellent progress in saving that this helps families as well. cash before cutting services, but there is more to do. In these tough times, as a proportion of total income, Last year councils in England spent £61 billion on interest payments for mortgages are currently at their procurement, but billions more could be saved by tackling lowest since records began. A Labour Government purchasing fraud, stopping duplicated payment, improving would have meant more expensive mortgages, failing to bulk buying and joint working, using electronic auctions, negotiating harder and opening up contracts to small tackle the deficit—[HON.MEMBERS: “No, it would not.”] Yes, it would, because failing to tackle the deficit would and medium-sized firms by cutting tendering red tape. have meant bigger spending cuts and higher taxes. One Councils can do more for less, and part of the Government’s has only to look at Italy and Greece to see that their plan is to help them do that, not by tinkering and borrowing costs have rocketed. They are cutting local controlling, but by giving them certainty about what is government spending, proportionally, far faster and far around the corner. That brings me to the two-year more than we have had to do here in Britain. Let us settlement. look at the Republic of Ireland, which has had to introduce a new property tax to try to plug the gap. The Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab): The right reckless calls from the Opposition to spend more money, hon. Gentleman is probably the 15th Housing Minister, have higher taxes and ignore the cuts would lead us to from all parties, who has stood at the Dispatch Box and very difficult times for families across this country. called for more efficiency. No one is arguing that we cannot get more efficiency out of any organisation, but Councils have come to discussions with a positive is not what he is saying a smokescreen for the fact that and constructive attitude, which does them great credit. he is cutting millions of pounds from some of the As we have seen, councils are making a huge effort to poorest communities in Britain? make the money that is available go further. They have innovated, done things differently, reformed and rethought Grant Shapps: I am probably the first Housing and their services. For example, Lichfield and Tamworth Local Government Minister in some time who has been district councils are now sharing their waste collection able to discuss the matter at the Dispatch Box for two services. Councils have tried to cut out every instance of years running because, unlike the previous Administration, duplication. For example, Lincolnshire is bringing county we have not been reshuffled every two minutes. I must and district data together so that people have to tell say that I have just read out a long list of things councils councils only once when they want to get something could do, from stopping purchasing fraud and duplicated done. payments to improving bulk buying and joint working. Councils have thrown open their doors to shine a Councils have begun to do that, and to do it well, and spotlight on waste and drive it out. All councils across we have seen some impressive results over the past year. England have chosen to publish online their expenditure over £500—all councils except for one sorry exception, Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con): On the subject of Labour Nottingham city council. It is disappointing purchasing orders, does my right hon. Friend agree that that Opposition Front Benchers still support the continued Hertfordshire county council could look at not going arrogant and outrageous secrecy against the residents forward with the PFI scheme that might see a large of Nottingham city, who deserve to see how their incinerator landed on the border between his constituency money is spent. [Interruption.] They laugh about it, but and mine, as they are very poor value for money? the public have a right to see how their cash is spent. If the Labour party had some mettle, it would stand up to Grant Shapps: I am extraordinarily grateful to my its local authorities that are refusing to publish that hon. Friend for raising that sensitive local issue, which information. My Department has published online every she will understand I cannot comment on as a Minister single penny of Government procurement card spending, with responsibility for planning. It is true that councils which has helped cut such spending by three quarters. that have used procurement wisely, for example through 363 Local Government Finance8 FEBRUARY 2012 Local Government Finance 364

[Grant Shapps] Grant Shapps: Perhaps when I take the hon. Gentleman’s intervention, he will tell us why he did not encourage his online procurement, competitive working, ensuring that Government to increase the needs formula when they they follow through on getting a purchase order, which were in power. is pretty basic, and paying only when they can prove that the goods have been delivered, have saved millions Mr Kevan Jones: Why is Hartlepool, in the north-east of pounds. of England, facing a 5.7% reduction in spending per dwelling and paying 0.2%—£5 a dwelling—into the Mr John Redwood (Wokingham)(Con): Will the Minister damping fund, while Wokingham’s spending per dwelling confirm that next year he proposes absolutely no decline is being cut by 1.5%? That surely cannot be fair when in aggregate Exchequer finance, which is going to be we compare the needs of Hartlepool with those of about level, and a £1 billion increase in total grants and Wokingham. special grants to local authorities? The Opposition are rather overdoing the gloom. Grant Shapps: The hon. Gentleman’s own local authority had a reduction of 3.2% this year—[Interruption.] His Grant Shapps: My right hon. Friend is absolutely authority had a reduction of 3.2%, which off the top of right to pre-empt a later section of this message, which my head is slightly less than my local authority’s. Different is that the reduction in local government spending authorities will experience different reductions. We just power is now coming down to 3.3%. Last year it was heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Great 4.4%, so it is true, and it was pointed out many times, Yarmouth (Brandon Lewis), whose local authority had that the reductions were front-loaded in order to allow an 8.8% reduction, yet he sent the very clear message to local authorities to adjust properly. the House that, because his authority has made some of the right moves, it has been able to cope with the changes. Mr Watts: Will the Minister give way? Several hon. Members rose— Grant Shapps: I will in a moment. In this Chamber last year there was an awful lot of Grant Shapps: I will just make a little progress. noise and heat on the question of why we were cutting In reality, money is incredibly short, and we know the up-front in order to ensure that the changes took place, impact of not taking action: it is called a credit but a year later we see that the vast majority of authorities downgrading, which is what France, Italy, Greece, Ireland have managed the process incredibly well. The National and so many other countries have seen. It is as if the Audit Office and others recognise that, and we were entire Opposition are in denial about the mess that this right to ensure that we made those cuts up-front. country is in and, in particular, about how we got into it in the first place, which was by continuing to spend Brandon Lewis (Great Yarmouth) (Con): Does the money that we did not have. Minister agree that we should do all that we can to On the questions that have been raised fairly about dispel the myth, put about by the Opposition, regarding why the amounts are different in this district and that deprived areas? Great Yarmouth includes some of the district, the answer is that in different areas funding is most deprived areas in the country, but its borough provided in different ways. In some parts of the country, council has dealt with the changes and cuts, which have there is much less reliance on Government funding. If it come through thanks to the previous Government’s means that in a particular area more funding is collected financial mess, without changing or losing any front-line through council tax or through services that the council services. Indeed, it is going further now and looking at provides and charges for, and less through the amount tripartite deals on shared services in order to give residents from central Government, then of course, in tough the best deal and to protect front-line services. times when central Government have less money to pay across, it stands to reason that the proportion of spending Grant Shapps: I am very grateful to my hon. Friend, power may seem different in an area that is entirely or who is absolutely right to point out that we went to much more dependent on Government spending. The extraordinary lengths to ensure that the most vulnerable real question to be answered about the settlement is areas and councils, in particular, were protected. whether we have gone out of our way to ensure that areas that receive more of their funding from the Several hon. Members rose— Government purse are better protected. The answer is always yes, because we moved the needs index and kept Grant Shapps: Before we have a barrage of interventions, the transition funds, and because of several other moves. let me explain to Opposition Members how we did so. For a start, my hon. Friend’s local council had an Several hon. Members rose— 8.8% reduction in spending power, which was the highest of any authority represented in the House, yet he made Grant Shapps: I have given way a few times; I will the comments that he did. We kept the floors and make a little progress and then take further interventions. damping in place, we introduced the transition fund, In December 2010, we set out a two-year settlement, which continues this year, and we did something that no and it turns out that there is virtually no difference at all Government of any size or colour had ever done: we between the settlement that we are discussing today and increased the needs index from 73% to 83% in the the one that we set out back then. Despite the challenges, formula grants. councils have expressed their gratitude for the stability that a two-year settlement provided. I am delighted that Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab) rose— we were able to provide that sense of stability. 365 Local Government Finance8 FEBRUARY 2012 Local Government Finance 366

As with last year, we sought to deliver a fair, sustainable have increased the needs index from 73% to 83% and and progressive settlement. As we have just discussed, whether they would have put in transition funding of we have again focused resources on the most vulnerable £96 million, I think, last year, and a further £20 million communities, giving more weight to the level of need, this year, to make sure that not a single area has had to from 73% to 83% within each council, and less weight have a reduction of more than 8.8% this or last year. to the per capita distribution. Several hon. Members rose— Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab) rose— Grant Shapps: I will take two more interventions and Grant Shapps: When I give way to the hon. Gentleman, then make a little progress. I give way to the Chair of I hope very much that he will have listened to the passage the Communities and Local Government Committee. that I have just read out, because I am sure that it will answer his question about need. We will give it a try. Mr Betts: Let us get this absolutely right. Despite his justifications about the details, the Minister seems to be Derek Twigg: My borough of Halton is the 19th worst saying that, in the end, the authorities with the greatest hit of any authority in the country and it is among the needs tend to be those with the greatest amount of top 30 most deprived authorities. How is that fair? Government grant; that the biggest amount of their Furthermore, why is the cut in the Chancellor’s borough spending therefore comes from the grant; and that those of Cheshire East less than half that of Halton? authorities will therefore have the biggest cuts to their spending power. Is that what he is saying to us? Grant Shapps: I see many former local government Ministers in the Chamber, including one or two on the Grant Shapps: The Chairman of the Communities Opposition Benches. They are well aware of a phenomenon and Local Government Committee knows the issue that takes place after every provisional local government better than that. He is familiar with the numbers involved finance settlement: each authority comes in to explain because, apart from anything else, his Committee has why it is the worst affected in the country. That reality spent a lot of time looking into the matter. For the sake brings a wry smile to those who have done this job before. of others in the House who might be getting carried To answer the hon. Gentleman’s point, I should say away with his argument, perhaps it is worth selecting that his authority receives a 3.9% reduction in spending some figures. Hackney, for example, a relatively deprived power. That is a touch over the average of 3.3% for this area, receives £3,050 per household. Windsor and year, but it is by no means impossible and nowhere near Maidenhead, perhaps thought of as a more leafy area, the 8.8% cut that one or two authorities, including that receives about half that amount at £1,537—a demonstration in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for if ever there were one that more deprived areas receive a Great Yarmouth, are experiencing. As I explained to lot more money than less deprived areas. the hon. Gentleman, before he intervened not having listened to a word that was said, we have again given James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con): more weight to levels of need in each council and less It is important to set this debate in a broader context. weight—this is critical—to per capita distribution. I At a time when local government has to make significant rather think that that goes to the exact point that the reductions, the Government have given local authorities hon. Gentleman asked about. significant powers in the Localism Act 2011, through a general power of competence, to take decisions locally Several hon. Members rose— and collaborate with other local authorities to reduce expenditure. Furthermore, the Local Government Finance Bill will allow local authorities to retain part of the Grant Shapps: I shall take interventions from those business rate, which will help in this difficult settlement who have not yet had a chance to intervene. I give way at a difficult time. to the hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith). Grant Shapps: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. While he tries to expand his argument to cover measures Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab): such as the un-ring-fencing of some £7 billion of On the basis of what the Minister has said, how is it that expenditure each year, it is revealing that the Labour the 30th most deprived borough in the country gets an party does not want to acknowledge that we are living above-average reduction in spending? in tough times. They do not acknowledge that we have done a series of things, including keeping councils in Grant Shapps: I explained that at some length about four different bands, each with a different floor level, five minutes ago, but I shall cover it again. If an area is and ensuring that the most dependent areas see their more dependent on money coming from a particular funding fall by proportionately less overall. source, and that source is the national Government, even when we make incredible efforts to keep down the Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab): The Minister’s reductions it is always possible for people from that area argument totally ignores the differences between council to stand up and say, “Ah, we have a bigger reduction in tax bases in different authorities, and the amounts that spending power.” That is because more of the area’s authorities can raise from a similar rise in council tax. money comes from the public purse rather than being On business rates, he is ignoring the fact that all predictions raised locally from local taxpayers. show that even if top-ups and tariffs are uprated by the I would have thought that Opposition Members would retail prices index, the gap between the wealthiest local understand that fairly straightforward calculation. They authorities and the poorest will grow under the have never told us whether they agree that we should Government’s plans. 367 Local Government Finance8 FEBRUARY 2012 Local Government Finance 368

Grant Shapps: I will come on to cover the more Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab): The right detailed points about business rates. I note, however, hon. Gentleman tries to justify the cuts with an argument that the hon. Lady did not mention that her own about fairness, but I am afraid that people who have authority has suffered only a 3.1% reduction in spending seen the heat map that has been produced will see right power, which is below the national average. through his smoke and mirrors. The map showing the impact of the cuts reveals that all but two of the 20 worst-hit councils are in the most deprived 20% of Several hon. Members rose— councils in England.

Grant Shapps: I want to make a little progress so I Grant Shapps: I draw the hon. Gentleman’s attention will push on and then take further interventions. to research that I think is in the Library, showing that the largest decreases in formula grant in the past year, I have already mentioned that an authority such as 2011-12, were in the south-east. The decreases were Hackney receives more than £3,000 per household while generally smaller for the most deprived areas and larger those such as Windsor and Maidenhead receive nearer for less deprived ones. He can look that research up for to £1,500. Last year we said that no council should himself, along with an interesting recent report by the expect a reduction in spending power of more than Joseph Rowntree Foundation, which stated that local 8.8%, and I am pleased to say that we have been able to authorities were protecting the most vulnerable and stick to that commitment for the second year running. I making sensible decisions about services. also mentioned the £20 million transitional grant, which means that the average reduction in spending power is The picture that the hon. Gentleman paints is inaccurate 3.4%—just a little higher than the figure for the authority and ignores the central fact that if we do not take of the hon. Member for Warrington North (Helen measures to reduce our deficit, we will end up in trouble. Jones), which she failed to mention when she intervened. Given that local authorities spend a quarter of all Government money, if we do not reduce our deficit This settlement delivers on promises already made. It they will end up bust. It seems incredible that we have has been recognised across the House and throughout not so far heard a single intervention from an Opposition the ages that the revenue grant system needs to change. Member to explain how the Opposition would deal The previous Government recognised that when in power. with the reductions that are certainly required but that Indeed, there were many false dawns under the previous they never want to face. Administration. They set up local government Green Papers and White Papers to look into the issue, and the Meanwhile, the Localism Act 2011 has put new powers balance of funding review—remember that? They also in the hands of local taxpayers. They now have the right set up the Lyons inquiry. What did they do with those to call local referendums if excessive council tax increases reviews? Precisely nothing. They continued with exactly are proposed. If any authority decides to increase its the same system that we are arguing about today, and council tax by more than a certain level, which we are which, for all sorts of reasons, is far too complex and separately inviting the House to approve, it will need the difficult to interpret or make much sense of. say-so of its local electorate, which is absolutely right. In most cases in which a council wants to increase council tax by more than 3.5%, local people will have Mr Redwood: I am sure we all welcome the £1 billion the chance to vote. Let the people decide—that is what extra for schools and education, but will the Minister localism is all about. explain why there will be a 35% increase in environmental special grants? That looks generous given the circumstances. Gavin Williamson (South Staffordshire) (Con): In my area, Tory-run South Staffordshire council is keeping Grant Shapps: I thank my right hon. Friend. One the council tax increase at 0%, and so is Staffordshire thing that every Local Government Minister knows is county council. The situation is not the same with many that there will always be a reason, a cause, a plea or a neighbouring Labour-run local authorities. Does my demand for expenditure to go into one area rather than right hon. Friend agree that it comes down to political another—not just geographic areas but subject matters. will? Some councils want low council tax, and others do He tempts me down a slightly different route, but that not care about their constituents. illustrates the extent to which the current formula is bust. It is broken, and it was recognised previously that Grant Shapps: My hon. Friend is absolutely right to it needed to change, but nothing happened to allow that. point out that where there is a will, there is a way. Where there is transparency, the sharing of services and smarter Rather than talking, the coalition is delivering procurement, there is a way. Not a single authority is fundamental reform of the local government finance suffering a reduction of more than 8.8%, and the average system through the Local Government Finance Bill, is 3.3%. There is no reason for them to be increasing which includes our proposals to repatriate business council tax. rates—a reform that will create better incentives for councils to drive growth, promote local enterprise and deliver local jobs. Councils will be in the driving seat to John Healey (Wentworth and Dearne) (Lab): Can the expand their local economy. That reform is about not Secretary of State confirm that a statement put out by just redistributing the proceeds of growth but creating his spokesman last night for the Local Government the conditions to boost growth overall. It is about not Chronicle is wrong? It states: just cutting up the cake differently, which is essentially “For a local authority, a council tax referendum is triggered the argument that we are having today, but making a only if its basic amount of council tax increases by more than bigger cake in the first place. 3.5%”. 369 Local Government Finance8 FEBRUARY 2012 Local Government Finance 370

Will he confirm that the Localism Act, which he has I do not think there is any need for council tax just cited, mentions the “relevant” basic amount of increases or referendums at all this year. While council council tax, which excludes levies? That means that tax more than doubled under the previous Government, local authorities with large levies are at a disadvantage and although a Labour Government would have hiked in the system and are likely to face a referendum trigger council taxes even more in a fourth term, this— amounting to significantly less than a 3.5% increase. John Healey: On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Grant Shapps: The right hon. Gentleman is my The Minister has tried to help the House and said he predecessor and has tremendous expertise and knowledge wanted to be clear, but he has just made the fundamental in this subject. I saw his letter to the Secretary of State mistake, which I think he needs to correct, of citing in which he raises exactly that concern, but I must tell precepts and not levies in the examples he gave. He him that this once, unusually, he has got his facts in a therefore underlines rather than undermines my point. twist—he has got them the wrong way round. It is the case that the referendum is triggered on the precepting Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): The right hon. authority’s increase only, not by taking into account the Gentleman has got his point across. addition of levies from other organisations such as police and fire authorities. I hope that satisfies him. In Grant Shapps: Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. fact, there should be a letter back in his office that Most people out there would be most interested not explains in some detail precisely how that operates. in whether a council tax referendum triggers at 3.5% or 3.51%, or whether that includes the £20 charged by the John Healey rose— parish council, although that is interesting and I hold by everything I have said at the Dispatch Box so far. Grant Shapps: I would rather not continue the dispute Most people in the country would be most interested in on the ballot point, if only because we will descend into the fact that council tax doubled under the previous incredible amounts of detail. The right hon. Gentleman Administration. If Labour Members had their way, has got his facts wrong, and I have written him a they would have council tax going up even further. three-page letter detailing exactly why. He is welcome to People might ask how we know that for certain. The come back to me, but I fear that the complexity of his simple answer is that they have not supported this year’s argument— or last year’s council tax freeze. Typically, the council tax freeze in the last year saved the average family at band D £72, and we are providing a further £675 million John Healey rose— of funding this year to councils to freeze their bills yet again. Grant Shapps: I will give him one more try. Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab) rose— John Healey: The Minister’s letter is in fact a one-page letter. It confirms that the statement made by his spokesman Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab) rose— in last night’s Local Government Chronicle is wrong in fact because it is not consistent with the terms of the Grant Shapps: I will give way in a moment, but I Localism Act 2011, which the Minister cites as the basis wanted to make the point that Labour Members have for the council tax referendum. opposed £675 million to keep council tax bills down this year. That will give hard-working families a helping Grant Shapps: I have not seen the Local Government hand. That is real help now, as someone once said from Chronicle, but I have seen the letter. It was certainly this Dispatch Box. more than a page when I signed it. Perhaps it was printed in a very small font or e-mailed in a strange way. Bill Esterson rose— It was a detailed letter that makes the point absolutely clearly, but I want to reiterate the point now so that no Andrew Gwynne rose— Member leaves the Chamber uncertain—there is no uncertainty. Grant Shapps: I will give way to an hon. Member who The referendum is triggered when an increase of has not intervened previously. more than 3.5%, brought about by the principal billing authority, takes place. That is based, therefore, on a Andrew Gwynne: I am very grateful to the Minister. district, county or borough implementing an increase of In previous years, the Government’s council tax freeze more than 3.5%. It does not include the fact that a fire moneys were paid as part of the funding formula, but or police authority, or a parish, might decide to increase this year, there is a one-off payment. Does that mean its amount by more. They are not covered by the trigger that councils such as Tameside that decide to freeze point. As I have said, I have gone into quite considerable council tax in the forthcoming year will have difficult detail and I want to make sure that the House is clear decisions to make the following year? that the principle is based on those authorities and those authorities only. Grant Shapps: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to point out that this is a one-year payment. I make no John Healey: Will the Minister give way? bones about that. These are incredibly difficult times.

Grant Shapps: I would like to make a little progress. Mr Watts: Smokescreen. 371 Local Government Finance8 FEBRUARY 2012 Local Government Finance 372

Grant Shapps: There is no smokescreen. I have just different view about that. Secondly, it is hard to take said that this is a one-year payment. To argue that historical figures, such as the hon. Lady’s 80% figure, £675 million is meaningless and does nothing for people and project them forward, simply because we do not across the country is to live in a completely different know what will happen. We have created in this country world from most people out there who are struggling a local government finance system entirely divorced and delighted at the freeze. from economic realities. Frankly, under the current The hon. Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew system, it has made no difference to councils whether Gwynne) is right about the technicalities. Significant businesses have survived or thrived in their local areas. changes to the council tax system are coming down the That is wrong, and that is what we will turn around. It is line for next year. Those changes, which include the absolutely right to do that. localisation of business rates, provide enormous opportunities to authorities across the country, including Mr Watts: Will the Minister give way? his own, to write their own destiny when it comes to their economic future. It will cease to be based on who can prove the greatest levels of deprivation, and instead Grant Shapps: I am keen for other Members to get in, switch, rightly, to who can bring more jobs to an area, but before he explodes, I will give way one last time to who can make their area a more business-friendly place the hon. Gentleman. to operate in, and who can build more homes under the new homes bonus. I make no bones about that point, and I am pleased to say that more than half of councils Mr Watts: The Minister wants to ensure that everyone have already signed up to the council tax freeze. understands the ramifications of his proposal, so will he admit that if a council accepts the freeze, the following Mr Watts: Will the Minister give way? year, the year after that and the year after that, its base will be eroded, which means that it will be worse off for Grant Shapps: I am disappointed, however, that a having taken the freeze? small minority of town halls, it appears, plan to reject the money, and some are going to the very limit of what Grant Shapps: The hon. Gentleman asks a timely they can raise without triggering a vote. question, so I am grateful for his intervention. The answer is that I cannot confirm that, as we have not Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab): The Minister described from where we will take the base. It is therefore makes great play of the council tax freeze, but does he a mistake for local authorities, based on today, to think accept that the Government’s 10% reduction in council that if they ramp up their council tax, that will automatically tax benefit will actually result in a council tax increase be taken into account on transition to the new system. for some of the poorest people in the country? We have not made a decision or an announcement on that, so if councils want to go ahead and take the risk, Grant Shapps: The hon. Lady seeks to bring us on to they should first listen to the warning from this Dispatch a completely different area of local financing, but we Box. With such a big change in the way that local can cover some of that. The council tax benefit localisation government finance operates coming down the line in is not a key part of the settlement today, but I am happy 2013, they cannot, right now, factor in their base by to talk about it. putting up council tax. I cannot confirm that today, and they should think not once, not twice, but three times Mr Watts: Will the Minister give way? before putting up council tax this year.

Grant Shapps: This measure will ensure that local I have to say that there are some interesting things authorities have a stake in the economic well-being of going on out there. Some councils are going to the very people in their communities—the person living behind limit of how much they can raise council tax by without the door at No. 22 or wherever—and in whether they triggering a referendum. Isn’t it surprising? I have seen can get back into work and off welfare, for example. It increases of 3.4%, 3.49% and 3.5%—on the nose—but is absolutely right to localise council tax benefit, simply there they stop. Doubtless those councils will say that because it gives the local authority a stake in helping those figures have been reached after expert, high-minded that person back to work. At the moment, the money advice from apolitical finance directors and that they goes directly from the centre to the individual, and the have been determined as the absolute minimum required local authority does not play a part. In the same way, to maintain vital services. What a coincidence that such the local authority currently has no stake in attracting rigorous objectivity comes up with such precise numbers, more businesses to an area or in building more homes. rather than 3.51%, 3.52% or 3.6%. Funny that—a referendum would be triggered if it did come up with Helen Jones: Will the Minister admit that 80% of those figures. It is almost as if those councils do not economic development is down not to what local authorities think that a bigger council tax rise would win the do but to what the Government do—or, in this case, support of their local voters. what they do not do. He is making the mistake, again, Then it struck me. Those councils have been inspired of assuming that people receiving council tax benefit by the bicentenary, as so many of us have: they have are all out of work. The people who will be hardest hit been reading their Dickens. And which character have by his scheme will be poor families in work. they taken as their role model, dipping into their residents’ pockets with a twinkle in the eye? I think we all recognise Grant Shapps: First, I think that 80% of business an Artful Dodger when we see one, and if those councils development comes from businesses, not from government, will not give people a say now, woe betide them at the whether local or central, but we might just have a next local elections. 373 Local Government Finance8 FEBRUARY 2012 Local Government Finance 374

As I have mentioned, we are not proposing this year Local authorities provide services on which we all to impose a particular level for town and parish councils rely, and what they do has a huge effect on the quality of for a referendum. However, we are concerned at reports life of the citizens we represent and on the neighbourhoods that some councils—just a few in the sector, but none in which they live. They are now having to deal, as every the less enough to trigger concerns—are proposing Member knows, with the biggest cut in resources that large increases. As with the point about the base, as we we have ever seen in our political lifetime. Councils have move to the new system, we will seriously consider been forced to absorb a reduction in formula grant of whether to make excessive parish increases part of almost 19.3% over the two years of the spending review. referendums in future. The cuts have been front-loaded. What that means, as the Local Government Association has pointed out, is John Healey: On the new system that will be introduced that local government has borne the brunt of the reductions under the Local Government Finance Bill, will the in the spending review rather than the burden being Minister confirm that it is a carry-over Bill and that shared equally with other parts of Government. page 640 of “Erskine May”—which says that Having heard the Minister’s contribution, it seems “the procedure should be used in respect of bills which had not that he is still living on a completely different planet yet left the first House”— from the one on which communities and their councils therefore applies? With the Government having forced have to exist. As the Institute for Fiscal Studies confirms, the Bill through Committee of the whole House in three the total cuts to local government spending will outpace days, which means that outside organisations cannot those of the public sector as a whole up to 2014-15. give evidence and have not had time to get to grips with the Bill, will the Minister confirm that “Erskine May” Mr Redwood: We are discussing £72 billion in aggregate means that this House will not have the Report stage of Exchequer finance for this year and next year, which is the Bill until after the Queen’s Speech? £1,200 for every man, woman and child in the country. That has to be taken off them in taxes in order to pay to Grant Shapps: The right hon. Gentleman is aware local government. Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us that every Opposition normally spend their time arguing how much more his party would like us to take off every that Bills should not be tucked away in some Committee man, woman and child in the country to make that Room, up on the lower or upper corridor, but debated Exchequer finance bigger? on the Floor of the House. That means that every Member of the House has the opportunity to take part in the debate and that nobody is excluded. I would have Hilary Benn: My response to the right hon. Gentleman thought that that was a thoroughly good thing, so I am is that we would not cut so far and so fast, as he knows. proud that we took such important business in Committee We would certainly not have distributed the cuts in the on the Floor of the House. It genuinely gave the opportunity fundamentally unfair way that this Government have to Members, as the people’s representatives, to come done. and make their points, and it is a good approach that should be followed. Mr Watts: Government Members suggest that just Just as we did last year, we have pushed the system as one or two deprived councils are being hit the hardest, far as we can to reach a settlement that is sustainable, but the document by SIGOMA—the special interest that is fair and progressive, and that allows councils to group of municipal authorities—shows that the vast freeze their council tax. majority, if not all, of the most deprived authorities are being hit the worst, while those in the most affluent Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab): Will the areas, often represented by Conservative Members, are Minister give way? in some cases receiving more grant.

Grant Shapps: I hope all hon. Members would agree Hilary Benn: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and that I have been more than generous with interventions. he anticipates some of the figures I am going to give to I am keen for others to be able to speak. the House. We will continue to work closely with councils to give First, however, it is important to note that the Secretary them the freedom, the tools and the support that they of State lost out to the Treasury—assuming, of course, need to get every penny of value out to the taxpayer. I that he tried to protect local councils in the first place, believe that this is a local government settlement that and there many who would doubt whether he put up will be welcomed around the country. much of a fight, given the glee with which he regularly attacks councils for what they do. The consequences of all this are: one, that local government has to deal with 4.44 pm cuts that are unfairly distributed; two, that residents are Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab): I welcome this having to come face to face with the consequences of opportunity to debate local government finance. I am those cuts, as services they rely on change or go; and, conscious that we are entering a world of strange three, looking to next year, that councils face nothing language—gearing and damping, floors and ceilings—and but uncertainty about their future financial position. the Minister did not disappoint. I was slightly surprised, Let me deal with each of those in turn. however, to hear so much about Greece and Italy, Despite the Secretary of State’s claim that what he Ireland and France. Unless I am very much mistaken, has done is fair and sustainable, the House knows that when I last checked, those countries were not part of the 10% most deprived upper-tier authorities are facing the local government funding settlement, but I stand to a reduction in their spending power that is nearly four be corrected. times greater than that faced by the 10% least deprived 375 Local Government Finance8 FEBRUARY 2012 Local Government Finance 376

[Hilary Benn] based. May I share with him the impact of the cuts on Tameside, which saw a £38 million reduction last year authorities. That is why the Minister’s argument falls at and a £35 million reduction this year, and which will see the very first hurdle. It is also undermined by his a £32 million reduction next year? That will have a real Department’s figures. impact on the delivery of services to one of our most Newcastle city council has done us all a very great deprived urban communities. service by laying out the facts. It looked at data taken from the Department for Communities and Local Hilary Benn: My hon. Friend is right. It is quite Government showing the cuts in 2010-11, 2011-12 and shocking that the Government have done this knowing 2012-13, taking account of transition and council tax what it will do, but at no time have they apologised, as freeze grants and the provisional new homes bonus they should, for the unfair way in which they have allocations. What do the figures show when all that is allocated these cuts, but it is time they did, because it is taken into account? Basingstoke and Deane will gain—I now clear that far from all of us being in it together, stress, gain—£6 a person overall, while Knowsley will some are much more in it than others. This is not just lose £227 per person. East Dorset gains £3 a resident, about local authorities, because the same is true of while Manchester loses £186. In Greater London, everyone funding for the fire service, which we are also discussing. loses, but some lose much more than others. The borough of Richmond is down by £2 a head, whereas Hackney is Mr Redwood: The right hon. Gentleman said that hit by a whacking great loss of £234 a head. Why is East Dorset and Basingstoke will gain money, but those that? Those are the raw figures behind the hard-faced districts do not get the increases for education and politics that prove that the Chancellor is trying to other county services. We are asked to approve a fall in balance the budget on the backs of the poor. East Dorset from £2.75 million to £2.5 million—a If Ministers do not like hearing the truth from Newcastle 10% fall—and a fall in Basingstoke from £6.74 million or from their own statistics, what about hearing it from to £6.25 million, which is also quite a big fall because the independent Institute for Fiscal Studies? Its analysis those districts will not get the other increases. by region shows that London and the north of England have been especially badly hit. Every year it publishes Hilary Benn: The right hon. Gentleman obviously did the green budget before the real Budget, and the 2012 not listen carefully enough to the point I made. If he green budget shows that overall cuts in local government has not seen the figures produced by Newcastle city spending, excluding education, are largest in both absolute council he should do so, because it has looked at the and proportional terms in London, the north-east and impact of the cuts over three years and has taken account the north-west. of transition grant and the new homes bonus allocation. In other words, it has looked at the total effect on those Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab): My right authorities of all the decisions the Government have hon. Friend mentioned Knowsley a moment ago when taken, and that is what the figures show. he was comparing figures. Does he agree that when we In relation to the fire service, there are brigade areas look at the acute levels of deprivation across the spectrum with a very high rate of incidents, such as Merseyside, that we experience in Knowsley, those figures are even Cleveland, Greater Manchester and West Midlands. worse, because some of the poorest communities in the What is happening to them? They are all facing reductions country are being punished severely in comparison with in funding per head, whereas areas with a lower rate of some of the better-off communities which are getting incidence, thank goodness, such as Hampshire, Royal off almost scot-free? Berkshire, and Hereford and Worcester, will get increases in their funding per head for the fire service. What that Hilary Benn: My right hon. Friend argues the case for means for the losers is that fire stations are closing, his constituents with great force and vigour, and he is pumps are going and firefighters are losing their jobs. absolutely right. This is fundamentally unfair. The reason it is happening—the Minister was remarkably reluctant Mr Watts: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the to admit the truth—is that councils in deprived urban most efficient fire authorities are in the metropolitan areas rely to a much greater extent than councils in areas, and that they are the ones that are losing the most more affluent areas on central grants from the Treasury, money? I thought that this Government wanted to which have been cut significantly. incentivise local authorities and fire services to become more efficient, but that does not seem to be the case. Brandon Lewis: Is it not important to make sure we understand the starting point for the councils the right Hilary Benn: My hon. Friend is right. Certainly the hon. Gentleman mentioned? For example, the figure for West Yorkshire fire service does an extremely good job a council such as Richmond was something like £150, in meeting the needs of all our constituents. but he is comparing it with that for Hackney, which was Worse is to come if Ministers insist on proceeding at £967 in the first place. with the cuts that they have planned for years 3 and 4. As the Minister will know, the metropolitan fire chiefs Hilary Benn: Of course there is a difference because there have been so worried about the prospect that they have is much greater deprivation in Hackney than in Richmond. given Ministers a stark warning in their response to the I should have thought even the hon. Gentleman would review, in which they say: be able to work that out for himself. “The Mets have already shouldered 62% of the cuts in the English fire and rescue service outside London in the first two Andrew Gwynne: My right hon. Friend is right to years…The cuts planned for years 3 and 4 are unsustainable and highlight the real impact of these cuts in areas such as would lead to life threatening reductions in fire cover and national the north-west of England where my constituency is resilience capacity”. 377 Local Government Finance8 FEBRUARY 2012 Local Government Finance 378

Unless the Minister has a very good answer to that, he Hilary Benn: Sadly, when it comes to the Liberal ought to reconsider his plans for the cuts in years 3 Democrats, not much has changed at all. That is a and 4. pattern of behaviour with which many of us in the Last year the Local Government Association warned House are all too familiar. that the consequences of the cuts in local government We have discussed the figures, now let us turn to the finance would be felt in front-line services, although—the consequences of all this. Before the election, the Prime Minister made this point—many councils have rationalised Minister promised that he would protect Sure Start. back-office services and cut costs. The approach of the Members may recall that he took the former Prime Secretary of State and the Minister is to blame councils Minister to task for suggesting that that might not happen. for all this, claiming that front-line cuts are not necessary. What has actually happened? A reply given by Ministers I was interested to read what the Minister told the just before Christmas shows that there are now 124 fewer Select Committee back in 2010, when he was questioned Sure Start centres than there were when the coalition by its Chair, my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield was formed. So much for the Prime Minister’s pledge. South East (Mr Betts). My hon. Friend put this to him: DCLG figures show that last year 93 out of 152 councils “So the bottom line from your point of view, then, as a —61% of them—cut spending on providing meals on ministerial team, is that there is no need for any cuts in services in wheels for the elderly compared with their spend in local government at all.” 2009-10, and 55 authorities cut spending on adult social care, although all of us know our authorities face The Minister replied: increasing pressures in that area. Also, 75 councils “No, they shouldn’t be cutting the front-line services.” reduced spending on equipment and adaptations for Only a group of Ministers who were completely divorced disabled and elderly adults, and according to another from what was going on in the real world in local survey, 88% of councils were increasing their care charges. government could say such a thing in public. We know, however, that in private some of them have said something Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): My right rather different. Last year the Under-Secretary of State hon. Friend mentioned Sure Start. Conservative for Communities and Local Government, the hon. Member Hammersmith and Fulham council has cut the Sure for Hazel Grove (Andrew Stunell) wrote to fellow Liberal Start budget by more than 45% in one year. Perhaps its Democrats—[HON.MEMBERS: “Where is he?”] He cannot councillors did not hear the Minister saying there should be locked in the Division Lobby this time, but it would be no cuts in front-line services. I thought that all have been nice to see him here. In his letter, he described Members recognised that Sure Start is an initiative that the local government settlement as “very disappointing”. in the long run will improve educational achievement A year ago, Liberal Democrat councillors published a and cut youth offending, and that it is therefore a good letter in The Times in which they said that local government and efficient investment, yet almost 50% of its budget was has been cut in one year by this authority. “being let done by the Communities and Local Government Secretary”. Hilary Benn: My hon. Friend makes that point very forcefully. I wonder whether Hammersmith and Fulham Even a good friend of the Secretary of State and the will still be the Secretary of State’s favourite council Minister, the much respected Baroness Eaton, accused once he becomes aware of what it has been doing, in Ministers of being marked contrast to what the Prime Minister of the “detached from the reality councils are dealing with”. party it supports said at the time of the election—but then that is sadly familiar, too. Derek Twigg: May I make a point about the impact We cannot get much more front line than making of front-line cuts on people? In Halton, adaptations for sure old people have a hot meal every day or get their people with disabilities can no longer be obtained because shopping done, or helping people to remain in their of Government cuts. The Minister did not answer my own home by building a ramp or putting a shower on question earlier, when I asked why the much more the ground floor, so whatever the Minister of State was prosperous Cheshire East authority has been subject to thinking when he answered an earlier question, or whatever a much smaller cut than Halton, which is one of the the Secretary of State was thinking in December when most deprived boroughs in the country. he described the draft settlement as “enough to safeguard the most vulnerable, protect taxpayers’ interests and the front-line services they rely on”, Hilary Benn: My hon. Friend makes an extremely I would gently say to them that they must recognise the good point, and has anticipated what I am about to say damage that such comments do to the credibility of DCLG about the impact of the cuts. Ministers. Every time they say such things councillors, officers and people in local communities look at each Andrew Gwynne: My right hon. Friend is right to other and ask, “Don’t they have any idea of what is highlight the role of the Liberal Democrats. May I take actually going on in the world we have to live in?” him to the Stockport part of my constituency, which is Liberal Democrat-controlled, and remind him that Bill Esterson: My right hon. Friend talks about the throughout the years of the Labour Government, the damage being done and the reality on the ground, and council’s grant increased year on year? Year after year that is precisely what my constituents are concerned the council resolved that that money was not enough, about. They are concerned about the damage to services but since 2010 it has faced a £54 million cut in its that my right hon. Friend has described. All that he has budget, and we have not heard a peep out of it. What said is true in Sefton, which faces a 25% cut, in common has changed? with many other metropolitan boroughs. 379 Local Government Finance8 FEBRUARY 2012 Local Government Finance 380

Grant Shapps: The figure is 3.9%. years ahead—in part because of what has been happening in local government, and in part because of the front- Bill Esterson: I thank the Minister for that correction. loading of the cuts. Sefton also faces the impact of the associated job losses For England and Wales as a whole, the reduction in on local businesses that rely on the public sector, as well the number of workers employed by councils between as the impact of the localisation of business rates. The the first quarter of 2010 and the second quarter of 2011 local economy will suffer greatly as a result of the totalled 129,000, of which women accounted for two money taken out of it due to the local government cuts. thirds. In other words, women are bearing the brunt of Businesses will not be in a position to expand. They will these reductions, and it is one of the reasons why the also be contracting, and the council will not be able to Chancellor’s economic plan is frankly in such a mess. In take advantage of the changes in business rates. That 2010, he boasted in his first Budget, “Never mind about will be disastrous for everybody in Sefton. the jobs that will be lost in the public sector, because they’re going to be replaced by jobs created in the Hilary Benn: My hon. Friend makes an extremely private sector”, assuring us that that would be the case. powerful point about the impact of all this on the What has actually happened? In the last quarter, for overall economy, and I shall say a few words about the every 13 jobs that went in the public sector—all 67,000 effect on jobs shortly. of them—just one was created in the private sector. The Institute for Fiscal Studies reports on another That is why the economy is not growing, the plan is not area that has been affected. It says that significant working and the Government are having to borrow reductions in expenditure on planning and economic more than they said they would. development are being seen. Councils will need as much resource as possible to respond to the national planning I have a couple of specific questions that I hope policy framework, and in particular to draw up their the Minister will respond to. On academies funding, new plans if they have not got them, or to revise the the Local Government Association’s view is that the plans if they have got them, because if they do not do £265 million that the Education Secretary has finally that, developers can come in and say, “We want to make decided to top-slice—having at one point threatened to use of the presumption in favour of sustainable take even more—is too high a figure because it does not development.” However, they will find that the resource reflect the actual savings that will accrue to local education they need to do that work will largely have disappeared. authorities. I agree with the LGA. Do Ministers share that view, have they argued local government’s case with I am reluctant to raise this point, but I shall: it is the Education Secretary, and does the Minister think extraordinary that although the Minister stands up and that will be enough to put off a resumption of the says, “Money’s very tight,” his Secretary of State has stalled judicial reviews on this matter? Secondly, on the found £0.25 billion to try to persuade councils to change business rates pooling account, I should be grateful if their minds about how to collect their rubbish. The the Minister clarified whether the Government plan to great localist thinks he knows better than they do how it run a surplus again this year, as they did last year, and if should be done, even though household recycling rates so how it complies with the law on the account’s operation. have more than doubled since 1997, thus saving residents a lot of money in landfill levy, and the majority of The third and last area I wish to turn to is uncertainty, councils whose minds he is trying to change with his particularly that created by the Local Government Finance cash are controlled by councillors from his own party. It Bill. Many councils have no idea, frankly, what their is a very expensive family disagreement. financial position will be next year because the Government’s policy is to localise uncertainty and volatility. Mr Betts: Is it not incredible that this nest egg of As things stand, no council knows what its baseline will money has been trailed before councils, which are to put be next year under the legislation going through the in bids for a scheme we are not sure about? No prudent House, what top-slice share the Government want to council would formulate next year’s budget on the basis take, how the levy will work, how the safety net will that there might be some money at some time coming operate or what impact, for example, the closure of a from the Secretary of State. Also, it is completely wrong large employer in its area would have on business rate of the Deputy Prime Minister to criticise Sheffield income. Nor do councils know, given the 1% average council for not taking account of this possible money limit on pay increases, how much will be taken off them before setting its budget for next year. by the Treasury, although there are estimates of £200 million in 2013-14 and £400 million in 2014-15. Hilary Benn: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and Furthermore, on the council tax benefit, nobody it will be interesting to see in the end how many councils knows exactly how the budget minus the 10% will be choose to take it up, not least because there is a knock-on distributed, what the take-up will be, and how councils consequence over the five years for which the Government are meant to cope with a rise in unemployment and, are expecting them to change their system. Frankly, therefore, with an increase in applications in their areas. £250 million could have been better spent on social care, I gently advise Government Members to have a very aid and adaptations, and meals on wheels. good look at what this will mean for their constituents, As my hon. Friend the Member for Sefton Central because many Government Members represent areas (Bill Esterson) pointed out a moment ago, one consequence where the proportion of pensioners is higher than the of all this has been huge job losses. As we know, the average. The more that is true, the greater the cut in Office for Budget Responsibility announced in November council tax benefit or, to put it another way, the bigger a dramatic revision of its projection of the total number the council tax bill that will have to be paid by their of jobs that would be lost in the public sector, including voters on low incomes, who have absolutely no idea in local government—up from 410,000 to 710,000 in the what the coalition Government have in store for them. 381 Local Government Finance8 FEBRUARY 2012 Local Government Finance 382

Mr Mike Hancock (Portsmouth South) (LD): Once The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for again, I declare my interest as a member of local Communities and Local Government (Robert Neill): May government. I share the right hon. Gentleman’s worries I point out that the right hon. Gentleman was a member that local authorities are not in a position even to guess of the Cabinet that had capping, whereby the Secretary what the situation will be next year. Does he agree that of State used to set the maximum council tax each year what is even more worrying is that the Government do without even asking anyone? not have a clue about what the position will be, and that that is the problem we face? Hilary Benn: Indeed, with the powers having been put in place by the previous Conservative Government Hilary Benn: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right, and having remained in place when we were in government. and we are talking about a change that the Government I was merely pointing out to the Minister the inconsistency are apparently determined to push through in a very in the Secretary of State’s argument: he says he is a great short space of time. [Interruption.] On the council tax localiser but on bins and on referendums it appears that benefit localisation, it is not a change, with the 10% cut, he knows better than everyone else. that I agree with. Government Members ought to listen to what council treasurers and leaders up and down the Robert Neill rose— country are saying, and they should make their views forcefully known to their Front-Bench team before they Hilary Benn: I have been very generous in giving way find their constituents asking them, “What is it you and I have given way to the hon. Gentleman once voted for? Why did you do this to me?” already, so I am going to conclude to allow others to speak. All this uncertainty has been created by the Secretary of State, because it is his Bill and his lack of clarity. On the question of how the 3.5% is calculated, however, What would a prudent authority do in these circumstances after the exchange we have just heard, I would say that I and faced with such uncertainty? What authorities actually think councils would welcome absolute clarity about do is build up reserves to guard against it, yet we know what kind of increase would trigger a referendum, not what the Secretary of State does to councils that have least because of the costs that would result. reserves—he attacks and vilifies them. That is a pattern In conclusion, the settlement needs to be seen for of behaviour with which councillors of all political what it is. The Minister referred to the Joseph Rowntree colours have become all too wearily familiar. Foundation and, as he might have read, last month it talked to a number of senior council officials about the I shall now deal with council tax and the other impact that reductions in local authority budgets will motion before us. Let us remember that average council have on the most deprived communities. The BBC tax bills are lower under Labour-run councils than reported what one officer, who, incidentally, works for a Conservative ones. No council, especially in the current Conservative-controlled authority, said, and I want to circumstances, wants to raise council tax if it does not quote him. He said, very simply: have to do so. Councils will do their best to avoid doing so, unlike the Secretary of State, who says that he wants “This is the most unfair and unjust settlement I have ever to protect people from increases in council tax and then seen”. the next moment introduces legislation that will impose I agree. It is unfair to councils and unfair to local council tax increases on people on low incomes. residents, and that is why we will vote against this motion. As my hon. Friends have said, this year’s council tax freeze grant is a one-off, unlike last year’s, and that Several hon. Members rose— creates a dilemma for councils. The Tory leader of Surrey county council, which I understand is not proposing Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. As hon. to take the freeze grant, said very simply: Members know, the debate is time-limited. Although I “The freeze would be a short-term gain for long-term pain.” am not introducing a time limit on each Back-Bench Why has he said that? He has done so because the freeze speech, if Members go on ad nauseam I or one of my could mean that residents face bigger council tax increases successors will have no hesitation in introducing one. next year and subsequently. That is not directed at anybody in particular. I call Bob Blackman. On the referendum proposal, capping powers have of course been in place since the Local Government Finance Act 1992 was passed by the previous Conservative 5.16 pm Government. It is right that councils are accountable Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): I feel suitably for the decisions they make, although if the Secretary of constrained by your introduction, Mr Deputy Speaker. State were true to his “localist” principles, he would have allowed local residents to hold the trigger on any It is a great pleasure to follow the right hon. Member referendum. Instead, the legislation will provide that he for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn), not least because he is will determine the benchmark—so he decides what is so eloquent and sets out such a strong case for local excessive. He will determine how the referendum is government. Of course, he knows a thing or two about conducted, the question to be put, the publicity and it, as he was in local government before he arrived in expenditure levels to be permitted and how the votes are this place. counted. He will even be able to direct that the referendum My starting point is that this is the second year of a provisions do not apply and decree the council tax two-year settlement. We must consider how far the requirement that must actually operate. In effect, the Government have departed from that settlement in this Secretary of State will set the maximum level of council second year. The reality is that there been improvements tax increase each year. to the financial settlement for local government. The one 383 Local Government Finance8 FEBRUARY 2012 Local Government Finance 384

[Bob Blackman] committed to that and it should be delivered. I call on all local authorities to take the opportunity of the grant thing for which local government has cried out for and to freeze the council tax across the country so that many years is certainty over funding. Even if it is bad all hard-pressed taxpayers can gain the benefit. It is true news, it is better to be certain about what will happen. I that different authorities are doing different things across am one of those who praised the previous Government the country. I shall not go into detail; I leave that to for introducing a three-year settlement, as it was probably others. one of the few things they did well. Even though the Before the last election, everyone knew that local settlement for many local authorities was not good, at government finance would be substantially reduced. It least it was certain and everyone knew what would was in the Labour party manifesto and in the Conservative happen. party manifesto. Everyone knew that it was coming. I listened as many Opposition Members intervened Every local authority, regardless of its political persuasion, on the Minister to ask about the reductions that their should have planned for those reductions and should councils will suffer. When fundamental changes are therefore have implemented them over the past two made to any type of funding formula and any process years. A series of measures could be undertaken, and I of local government funding, there are bound to be shall mention a few. The first is to cut executive pay. It is winners and losers. One problem that has been associated interesting that in the past few days the Labour party, in with local government financing for so long, as the particular, has been talking about people receiving large Minister rightly articulated, is the fact that the funding amounts of public money. There is no doubt that chief formula is horrendously complicated and virtually no executives and senior executives of local authorities one understands it. Figures are put in, indices are have been the beneficiaries of huge increases in pay over changed, the numbers are crunched and the figures the past few years. At a time when local authority come out. If those figures are not to everyone’s liking, funding is decreasing, it is right that senior executive people seek to change the indices to make the facts suit pay in local authorities reduces. the result that they want. I am not a great fan of my local council, Harrow council, but I take my hat off to it for the measures that Mr Kevan Jones: I know that the hon. Gentleman has it is introducing. Its chief executive is cutting his own a long history in local government and will be aware of pay. He is cutting the number of senior executives and the old council tax resource equalisation, which took their pay, and he has introduced a system of pay within into account the needs of different councils and gave a the local authority which means that the workers on the level playing field. Does he agree that what we have now ground will be paid the same hourly rate regardless of is a system that redistributes resources from poorer when they work, but they will work a normal working areas to richer areas? Even worse than that, it gets poorer week. areas to pay for it under the new damping system. Andrew Gwynne: The hon. Gentleman said that local Bob Blackman: I recognise the hon. Gentleman’s authorities should have expected and planned for reductions. point. A key issue is that comparisons made year on I have some sympathy with that argument because it year must consider the amount per person, per household was clear, as he said, that were there to be a Conservative and so on that the authority has in the first place. One Government in particular, there would be some substantial problem under the previous Government was that we reductions to local authority funding. Does he recognise, saw money moved from London to northern authorities; however, that the real problem for authorities such as a deliberate decision was taken and it was quite clear mine started in 2010 with the in-year cuts, which took a that that was taking place. Now, the balance is being massive amount of spending out of their budgets that redressed. That is quite right, but the problem is that the they had already planned for and already started to hon. Gentleman is comparing one year with another spend? rather than looking at the longer term issues and at how certain authorities have gained substantially over the Bob Blackman: I thank the hon. Gentleman for raising longer term. that. I shall come on to some of the issues that every local Mr Jones: Does the hon. Gentleman also recognise authority in the country should be examining. Are they that those northern councils have a different council tax using their procurement capability properly? Have they base? In the north-east of England, for example, 50% of joined with other local authorities to procure services, properties are in band A, whereas in Surrey that figure such as adult social care, using their buying power is less than 2%, so even if those councils wanted to raise instead of competing one on one for the private sector extra finance locally, their ability is severely limited. services that are available? Have they shared their services across the various councils that operate within their Bob Blackman: I recognise what the hon. Gentleman area? Very few local authorities have done that. says about council tax base. That is a fair point. I notice Have local authorities fundamentally restructured that over some 13 years the Labour Government declined the services that they deliver, to eliminate multiple handling? to review the council tax base or the underlying valuations, The vast majority of councils handle a multitude of and I notice that the Government have agreed to continue grant applications and applications for different services, that process of not revaluing properties for council tax yet that information is input for every single service, so purposes. we have a multiplicity of inputs coming from the most We have the opportunity once again this year for a needy families. That means that we employ in local council tax freeze. That is welcomed by local authorities government far too many people to repeat the handling and hard-pressed taxpayers. The Government are of those cases. Those services should be simplified so 385 Local Government Finance8 FEBRUARY 2012 Local Government Finance 386 that the vulnerable in society supply their data only country that are sitting on huge balances. I take the once and then benefit from whatever services the local view that no more than 10% of council tax take should authority provides. Has the local authority properly be maintained as a balance. considered outsourcing its services? There are direct I want to mention three other areas. The Government suppliers that can deliver those services, often at a have changed the whole basis behind local government fraction of the cost of the public sector. finance, and that is coming forward in legislation. That will change the whole ambit of how local authorities Mr Betts: One of the problems with outsourcing that are rewarded. We had some interesting discussions on many councils find, including mine in Sheffield, is that Second Reading of the Local Government Finance Bill when they have to make cuts to a contract that was about the fact that deprivation was a key driver for local agreed some years ago, the cost of changing it can be authorities. The more deprived a local authority area, considerable, and they have less flexibility to adjust the more money it got. The Government are changing services under the new financial constraints than if they the whole ambit and structure of finance. We will have a had employed people directly, in-house. situation in which house building leads to a new homes bonus, so local authorities will be rewarded for building Bob Blackman: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that houses and will receive finance as a result. Under the contribution. One of the necessary aspects of outsourcing business rate retention scheme, local authorities will be is making sure that local authorities work on a partnership encouraged to promote employment and job opportunities, basis, rather than just by the letter of the law as set out so we will have an enterprise-led economy, encouraged in the contract. Far too many local authorities are not by local authorities, and the onus will be on enterprise smart enough in the way they write procurement contracts and not on deprivation.. to make them fit for purpose. By ensuring that contracts I conclude by reflecting on what has happened in are demonstrated and written in the right sort of way, London this year. I applaud the fact that, after three flexibility can be built in and services maintained. years of council tax freezes under Boris Johnson, the Mayor of London is reducing—reducing!—his share of Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): Surely the best way the council tax, not only ensuring that we have 1,000 of doing that is by writing the contract in the first place extra police officers on the beat, but reducing crime and with break points at regular intervals so that changes improving services to Londoners overall. Let us compare can be made. that with the record of the great pretender, the old pretender, who over eight years increased his share of the council tax by 152%. The comparison could not be Bob Blackman: I thank my hon. Friend for reminding starker. We get a better service and better value for me that one of the necessary aspects of procurement is money under the Conservatives. having suitable break points and review points in a contract, so that the contract is long enough for investment to take place but can be changed or terminated by the 5.30 pm local authority if the service is not up to scratch. Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab): I was in I also take issue with the view of the right hon. a bit of agreement with the hon. Member for Harrow Member for Leeds Central on balances and reserves. I East (Bob Blackman), another member of the Select feel very strongly that taking money from council tax Committee, until he made his final comment, when we payers and putting it into reserves or balances, rather reached the point of complete disagreement. than spending it on services, is theft from the taxpayer, First, the issue to which we return today is very much because it is not being invested in the services provided. the issue that we debated in the House a year ago. It is In my view, local authorities that maintain large reserves about funding for local government, whereby the or balances are fundamentally fooling their taxpayers Government have an overall policy of cutting public and should be exposed for doing so. Local authorities expenditure by 19% but have decided that local government should maintain balances, but only balances that are expenditure can be cut by 28%. That is the reality. Local required for cash-flow purposes or for funding in-year government has been singled out for much larger cuts hikes that might take place. than the rest of the public services, presumably because Ministers believe that the services that local government Mr Kevan Jones: When the Prime Minister was Leader provides are less important. That must be the reality. of the Opposition, he talked about the importance of mending the roof while the sun was shining. Given the Robert Neill indicated dissent. uncertainty that the Government are bringing into local finance, is the hon. Gentleman really suggesting that Mr Betts: The Minister begins to shake his head, but, local councils should have no reserves at all to fall back if he does not believe in that, why is he prepared to on if their local council tax base goes down following a support the local authority grant reductions, which are big closure or some other catastrophe? That is just bad so much larger than the reductions in other Government business. expenditure? That is the question to which Ministers have never really addressed themselves. Bob Blackman: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention and for pointing out the issues relating to Robert Neill: The Department’s reduction in central balances and reserves. They should be precisely for costs and administrative expenditure is in excess of funding a local authority’s cash-flow requirements, not 30% and, in total administrative costs, rises to about for saving huge amounts to cushion unexpected amounts. 40%. We have put our money where our mouth is and The reality is that there are authorities up and down the reduced our costs more. 387 Local Government Finance8 FEBRUARY 2012 Local Government Finance 388

Mr Betts: I thank the Minister for that reply. It is Bob Stewart: Would it not be fairer, and would it not certainly true that there has been a substantial loss of be seen to be fairer, if we talked in terms of percentage civil servants in the Department for Communities and cuts rather than using actual figures? If we looked at the Local Government, but I did not say that local government cuts in terms of percentages, we would see things better. expenditure had been cut more than the overheads in I am myself trying to clarify the point. the DCLG; I said that it had been cut more than the overall cut in central Government expenditure. That is Mr Betts: Sheffield city council is making cuts of the reality, and Ministers ought to be prepared to 11% in its budget this year, and that is substantially defend it if they believe that local government services more than many councils in more affluent parts of the are less important. country are making—much bigger in percentage terms, Secondly, the cuts were front-loaded. Local government let alone in amounts per head. itself argued that, if in the end the cuts were going to be made over a four-year period, they should not be front- Mr Kevan Jones rose— loaded, because it would mean rushed cuts with a bigger impact on front-line services than if councils had Mr Betts: I will give way to my hon. Friend, but then the time to do more about shared services, an issue to I must make progress. which I shall turn in due course. That, too, is the reality. Mr Jones: Does my hon. Friend agree that it is We are also told that there has been the certainty of a nonsense to suggest, as the Minister did, that somehow two-year settlement, but local government was given to an organisation such as Sheffield city council can have understand that there would be the certainty of a four-year 11% taken from its budget without that affecting front-line settlement—an indication of the cuts over a four-year services—no matter how many pot plants are consigned period. It appears that that is not quite the case. The to the dustbin? advantages of front-loading, as initially sold, were that at least local councils would know the score for four Mr Betts: I agree with that point without in any way years, but, now that the Chancellor has to find another saying that Sheffield city council spends a great deal of £150 billion of borrowing, no doubt he will return to money on pot plants; of course it does not. local government to make further cuts in years three and four. Ministers have not referred to that at all so Robert Neill: We know who does, don’t we? far. We will then have the cuts that will follow the changes Mr Betts: I am sure that the Minister will provide in the Local Government Finance Bill, which is going some figures in due course. through Parliament, and the cuts in council tax benefit We have heard from Ministers all the ways in which funding—another uncertainty for local councils. The councils can save money. Of course there are many ways pretended certainty of last year is, therefore, beginning in which that can happen without front-line services to unravel in terms of years three and four, and the one being affected; the reality is that councils have been very good part of the settlement—that councils knew where good at that over the years. Through the period of the they were for four years—is apparently no longer the Labour Government, councils were forced to find about case. 2% in efficiency savings, year on year. Over the past The third point—alongside bigger cuts for local councils, 20 years, in fact, they have generally been much better at and the fact that they were front-loaded and there is that than central Government. Councils have a good now uncertainty in years three and four—is the unfairness, track record. which my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds If the cuts were not so front-loaded, councils would Central (Hilary Benn) amply demonstrated. The Minister have had more time to prepare and consider efficiency could not argue when I intervened on him, because in savings. Cuts to services cannot just be dreamed up reality the councils with the greatest need receive the overnight; they are often the product of complex greatest grant, and they are seeing the biggest cuts in negotiations between councils and other public bodies Government funding. That is fundamentally unfair. to make sure that the agreements are proper and genuinely deliver savings. I have just had information about what is going on in Derek Twigg: My hon. Friend is making a very good Sheffield. Together with Government Departments and speech. On the point about the greatest cuts falling on other public agencies, Sheffield city council is embarking those with the greatest need, I should say that next year on a look at the whole public estate—the buildings that Halton will lose £44 per head; Cheshire East, the the public sector owns or leases, and operates. With Chancellor’s council area, will lose £19 per head. The central Government Departments and agencies, the council Prime Minister’s area of Oxfordshire will lose £21 per is trying to get better value for money from the whole head. How can that be described as fair? public estate. That programme cannot be delivered overnight. There Mr Betts: My hon. Friend makes a good point. I could be very large savings if it is carried out properly, certainly would not describe that as fair, although Ministers but it must be done in a considered way, with everyone apparently would. My constituents certainly do not working together. The council cannot simply click its understand why Sheffield city council is having to cut its fingers and say that a certain number of millions of budget by more than 10% while other councils have to pounds in savings are coming next year. The process make cuts of only a tenth of that amount—in percentage takes time. Many of us have been trying to argue that terms, let alone in respect of the relative difference per the savings can probably come about, but that they will head of population. take time. 389 Local Government Finance8 FEBRUARY 2012 Local Government Finance 390

In the meantime, front-line services are being hit. money that has not yet been announced. That is a Concessionary bus fares for young people in Sheffield ridiculous way to run anything. If a parish council ran increased from 40p to 50p this year and will go up to its affairs in such a way, Ministers would be on their 60p next year. Youngpeople always appear to be getting feet, proclaiming that it was inefficient and incompetent. the brunt of the cuts—tuition fees, the education Labour Members can therefore say that this Government maintenance allowance and the cuts to youth and career are inefficient and incompetent in their handling of this services. The other day, people at a school that I was issue. visiting said that work experience has now stopped One or two other points have been raised. Of course because Government funding to assist it has stopped we want to see the voluntary sector contribute, whether and employers are not responding. to the big society or to the delivery of better services for All those things are happening to young people. Sixty their communities. Again, I congratulate Sheffield council pence for a bus fare may not seem a lot, but when the because it is cutting money to the voluntary sector by Youth Parliament in Sheffield did an assessment of just 5% this year, compared with the 11% cut to the young people’s needs two or three years ago, buses came total council budget. out as top of the list of things that are important to young people, as they mean mobility, independence and The voluntary sector depends on public sector employees not having to rely on other people to get around. working with it to deliver services. All the volunteers in my constituency who take part in environmental Of course, we are seeing cuts in care services for the improvement schemes rely on two council officers, with elderly. Let us congratulate councils such as Sheffield, a bit of seed money to provide training and materials. which is cutting those services by only 5%, when 11% is That is how it works. We cannot divorce the voluntary coming off its total budget, and it is trying to concentrate sector from the rest of the council services. on administration, management and back-room services. The council is trying to prioritise cuts on back-room Neither can we divorce private jobs from public jobs. services—15% in human resources, 14% in legal services More than 550 public sector employees in Sheffield city and 26% in IT. But do not let us pretend that legal council will lose their jobs, or posts will be held vacant, services, IT and other such services can simply be cut as a result of the council’s budget proposals. Fortnightly with no eventual impact on front-line services. If we are bin collections, however, are outsourced to Veolia, so it to make all the changes to the public estate that I will be not public sector workers who lose their jobs but mentioned, we will need legal officers in the council. those in the private sector who are employed by that Back-room services are important for the delivery of an company. We cannot divorce the public and private efficient front line. sectors. The cuts that have necessarily been made by councils up and down the country will affect private Sheffield council has decided to move to fortnightly sector employment as well as public sector employment. refuse collections and to improve its recycling offer. Orders from councils will be reduced as they will have That will save £2.5 million a year, and although it less money to spend, and private sector companies will cannot simply exempt those services from the savings, it suffer as a result. The idea that private sector companies will try and improve its recycling. The Secretary of will grow jobs on the back of the cuts is fallacious. That State has a view—presumably shared by Ministers—that is why the economy is heading for recession. such matters are all about localism until he has a particular policy or pet project that he wants to see I conclude with one further point about the fire implemented. He believes in weekly bin collection. That service. The other day, we went to see the Minister with is up to him. The idea is that having abolished the vast responsibility for the fire service, who is responding to majority of ring-fenced grants—and I support the this debate. He kindly agreed to meet a delegation, and I Government’s policy on that—we should suddenly invent hope that he listened carefully to the fact that the cuts to a new ring-fenced grant for this one issue. It is not quite the fire service grants of the metropolitan fire authorities a new ring-fenced grant, however, because the grant is are twice the level of those for other fire authorities in not in place. Perhaps we may call it a new ring-fenced the country. Fire chiefs are saying that if the cuts idea. continue for a third and fourth year, they will not be able to deliver appropriate fire cover in their areas. Local authorities now have to draw up budgets and decide what to do. They must be prudent, but when In my constituency, three fire stations are being closed considering how their services will be delivered next and will be replaced by just two. That may be a more year, they cannot take account of money that may efficient way of delivering fire cover, but it will result in arrive under a scheme that has not yet been announced. slower response times to some of the large industrial How on earth do Ministers expect local authorities to plants in Sheffield that still operate in the steel industry respond to their view of the world regarding refuse and other related industries. People are worried that if collection if they trail a grant in advance that will that happens, it could create greater risks at a time when perhaps no longer be in place when councils start to we hope to see great Sheffield firms such as Sheffield formulate their budgets? Councils have no idea whether Forgemasters continue. We would not want them to be they will get any money, what will be the criteria for the put at greater risk by reduced fire cover. We hope that scheme, how much money there will be in the first, Ministers will listen to those concerns. second and third years, and when the money will run This settlement is unfair to many councils, and those out, leaving them to pick up the bill. in the greatest need are receiving the biggest cuts. In Is it not a disgrace for Ministers to trail such a total, it demonstrates that the Government value the scheme, and then criticise councils—just as the Deputy services provided by local councils less highly than Prime Minister criticised Sheffield council—for moving other public expenditure, and I will certainly be in the to a fortnightly refuse collection? Ministers say that Lobby with my right hon. and hon. Friends to vote councils should instead take advantage of Government against it this evening. 391 Local Government Finance8 FEBRUARY 2012 Local Government Finance 392

Several hon. Members rose— We must accept that the Government amended the funding formula to take greater account of councils’ Mr Speaker: Order. In order to accommodate remaining need. Extra funding is available, for example to support colleagues who wish to contribute to the debate, to adult social care, but I represent an area where the whose numbers, by my sight, one has just been added, demand for social care is great in relation to resources. making the list slightly longer than the one I had in my All Departments must give a great deal of thought to possession, I am imposing an eight-minute limit on the funding of social care while we wait for the White Back-Bench contributions with immediate effect. Paper and for anything new to kick in, because here and now, councils across the country have enormous problems in ensuring that the most vulnerable people get enough 5.45 pm support. That same situation applies throughout the Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD): country. There are pressures on that funding. I intend to be relatively brief, Mr Speaker. The new homes bonus is a plus, bringing in extra We have to start by being clear that very tough cuts funding, and on balance, the council tax freeze for this have been imposed on local government. It accounts for year is a plus. I well remember being on the council 25% of all public expenditure, so councils were always under Labour, when the average increase in council tax going to have to play a considerable role in fixing the in England was something like 10.4%, which enormously black hole in the nation’s finances. It has been hard, affected people who were just above the level of qualifying given the front-loading of the cuts, but I wish to praise for any benefit. When I reflect back to that time, I recall the many councils across the country that have approached that I was blamed as a councillor for that increase in innovatively the tasks with which they were faced. I council tax, which was because of Government funding. sometimes think that central Government can learn We come back to that point over and over. from some local government practices, because councils In these difficult times, a council tax freeze is very are closer to the ground and have extra flexibility in good, but every council in the country is worried because how they approach things. of that one-off payment, as a number of hon. Members In my area, for example, two councils now share a have pointed out. How do councils adapt to the situation chief executive, and there has been much more working in subsequent years? It would be wrong not to point out together among councils, with the county council that that is a big concern. co-ordinating it. Poole’s unitary council is merging certain A further concern that I have picked up from my services with Bournemouth, which makes a lot of sense local councils is that they feel they have coped with given that they are both relatively small unitary councils. planning for the cuts that they have had to impose so A lot of action is taking place. far, but the uncertainty of next year gives them much I am slightly frightened of getting absolute numbers less lead-in time for future planning. The Government and percentages mixed up, which is what has been must take on board the problems that councils face. happening all afternoon, but I point out that East Like the Chairman of the Communities and Local Dorset council’s revenue support grant per head is Government Committee, I believe that ending ring-fencing £25.98, so there will not be a £200 cut. There cannot be. is a good move. It is quite painful for local councils, but We therefore have to consider percentages. One might if we believe in localism, it must be the right thing. say that a more deprived area should not have the same Moving towards the new system is right. We surely percentage cuts as a less deprived one, but there is a cannot defend the old system. Nobody understood the difficulty with that. As we know, any organisation has formula and it failed the test of time. certain basic costs that are the same. We need only look I hope that Communities and Local Government at schools, which need a certain number of staff whether Ministers monitor the costs that are shunted on to local they are big or small. That is an absolute fact. councils from other Departments. Examples include the 50% cut in community safety grant; the youth justice Mr Kevan Jones: Will the hon. Lady give way? proposal that local authorities take youth offenders into care; and full recovery for court proceedings under the Annette Brooke: I will not, because I want to make it Children Act 2004. I could go on, but I shall conclude clear that it is not correct to switch from numbers to exactly on time. percentages and to try to blur the picture. We know that the percentage cuts are large, averaging 3.3% but varying across the country. In fact, in my part of the country the 5.53 pm percentages are towards the higher end. Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab): I shall One of the councils in my area, Dorset county council, concentrate on what the local government settlement is particularly concerned about the funding lost through means for my council. I have advised my colleagues the current formula damping. We can ask ourselves many times before in the Chamber that North Tyneside where that money goes, and we find that, probably quite council has a mayor and cabinet system. Unfortunately, rightly, it goes to more deprived areas. However, I am it currently has a Tory cabinet and mayor, but 35 of the told that Dorset has lost a greater proportion of its 60 councillors are Labour. No doubt that number will grant entitlement through that formula—the Labour increase in May. Government’s formula, I might add—than any authority The mayor has decided to go for the zero council tax in recent years. It will lose more than £7.4 million in increase deal, which many councillors would argue means 2012-13. There is great concern that the damping a loss of money year on year. That remains to be seen. mechanism will become locked into the baseline for As a result of the local government settlement, our Tory future years. I want to flag up that point as we move to a council faces a cut of £17 million, and following the new system. fashion of the Tory Government, it wants to make 393 Local Government Finance8 FEBRUARY 2012 Local Government Finance 394 savings by cutting services to the most vulnerable members delighted to have had the opportunity to hold the of our community. They want to cease the breakfast Labour administration to account. We must bear it in offer for breakfast schools, remove free fruit and milk mind that those who suffered most at the hands of the for key stage 2 pupils and increase home care charges by council tax hikes were those on fixed incomes, including £50 a week—those charges rose by 51% last year and pensioners. are currently £151 per week. Even before the budget I want to talk about the opportunities to give local is set, my hon. Friend the Member for Tynemouth authorities greater freedom and enable them to address (Mr Campbell) and I find ourselves pleading the case and protect the important front-line services that many for hundreds of bowlers in North Tyneside, because the Members have highlighted. For example, during my council wants to increase their bowling fees by 400% over time as a councillor, Labour not only hiked council tax the next three years, which will put this sport out of the by 42% in three years, but managed to drive down reach of many older people, for whom it is genuinely a standards until we were the joint worst in the country. lifeline. The Government inspectors came in and said, “You The mayor has come up with an even more radical need to reinvigorate the council. You need to ensure solution to her difficult budget problem. She and the that you have an excellent top management team. You cabinet want to outsource almost all council services to need to go out to market and get the very best council the private sector by October this year. The only services officers available. To do that, you must pay them that will stay in-house will be legal services and the considerably more money than they are paid now.” The safeguarding of children and young people. Everything council almost doubled the money on offer and re-employed else is up for grabs. North Tyneside is no stranger to pretty much the same officers—all paid for by local outsourcing, having outsourced council repairs some council tax payers. I welcome the fact, therefore, that years ago, but that proved to be an inefficient and costly the Government will be pulling back on the huge numbers service for those who used it—the number of complaints of inspections. that my office gets every week testifies to that. I welcome developments, including in my constituency, There is no getting away from the fact that private where my chief executive is cutting his own pay for the companies need to make profits. As the leader of the second year in the row—we are seeing that across the Labour group in North Tyneside, Councillor Jim Allan, country. We need greater transparency and accountability said, the private sector has no magic wand with which for the highest earners in the public sector. to deliver the same services at the same level but with We also saw a great disparity between the national less money. It does not work like that. Outsourcing just pay settlements, where the Government would award one service would take time. For one, there would be the pay rises for public sector workers, but then award the consultation with the public, which is not happening in local authorities that process that money with a much North Tyneside, and what about the human resources smaller local authority settlement. All local authorities implications, working with the unions and the tender were invariably playing catch-up before they had even process? How can all that be done for multiple services started the cycle of working out the following year’s in a six-month period? council tax. Everyone from residents to staff and councillors realises We had endless BVP—best value performance—targets. that budget cuts can mean change, but this seems a When I first became the lead member for leisure, recreation change too far. The North Tyneside council that I was a and culture, I was particularly excited to bestow my councillor on for 15 years was always striving to achieve, unique “Tomlinson vision” of what I wanted to do. always looking forward and always trying to work with However, I was presented with a colourful chart setting its residents in the most positive strategic way, but now out exactly what the Government insisted I should do our Tory mayor and her cabinet are bowing to the as the lead member, which bore very little resemblance pressures from the coalition Government, taking the to the public’s priorities. All that cost considerable easiest way out of managing the huge Government cuts amounts of money, as we chased the national—and and throwing North Tyneside on the mercy of full irrelevant—targets. There was also a need for endless market forces. consultations and vanity communications projects, where in some regions we had to go out and spend many 5.57 pm thousands of pounds talking to just a handful of people to determine what we should and should not do. Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con): I was not We need greater transparency in how local authorities intending to speak in this debate, but many hon. Members spend money, and I had an end-of-term Adjournment have highlighted the importance of fairness, so I thought debate on that subject. This Government are trying to that someone should stand up and highlight the fairness open up local government finance, so that we can to council tax payers. I speak from experience, having embrace the potential armchair auditors—the hundreds been a councillor for 10 years on Swindon borough and thousands of people out there who do not have the council. We took control of that council off the back of time to be full-time councillors, but who have good a 42% hike in council tax in just three years. When my ideas or good experience of how local authorities could hon. Friend the Member for Mid Dorset and North save money. I set out some of the challenges that local Poole (Annette Brooke) talked about an average Labour residents face in identifying financial figures and being council tax rise of just over 10%, I thought, “If only able to make suggestions. I said that local authorities that had been the case!” should embrace the idea, setting up their own star Members have highlighted their concerns about the chambers, incentivising local residents to find savings council tax referendum, but I can assure them that the and sharing those savings with local residents, so that constituents whom I represented as a councillor and the council can bank half the money. Perhaps the local whom I now represent as an MP would have been residents could then suggest which front-line services 395 Local Government Finance8 FEBRUARY 2012 Local Government Finance 396

[Justin Tomlinson] into account, placing councils on a level playing field, yet this Government have torn it up. We saw in last the other half could be spent on improving. I would like year’s adjustment a cut of £473 million and for the to see a lot more of that. I was told that one of the coming year a cut of £515 million. As my right hon. arguments against that idea is that it would cost many Friend the Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) local authorities a lot of money to answer such requests said, some have had a 15% cut in local government and understand whether local residents were right in expenditure. challenging the figures. However, it is a worry if local The Government are trying to give the impression to authorities do not own their own budgets and are not local councils and local people that it has nothing to do able easily to answer such requests, because we would with them. Well, it is. Durham, for example, has had to expect them to be able to do so. take £125 million out of its budget. The idea that it is A greater priority needs to be placed on capital possible to do that by cutting the chief executive’s pay is investment in invest-to-save schemes. As the lead member nonsense; if he worked for nothing, it would not chip for leisure, I knew that the majority of the things that away much of that. It is all part of a well worked out we did would end up costing us revenue, which put strategy by the Secretary of State to shift the blame to further pressure on council tax, so we started to prioritise local councils. activities such as five-a-side football pitches. We built I spent nearly 11 years in local government, and there three 3G—third-generation—football pitches on a four-year was not a single year in which we failed to look for payback scheme. They were paid off within 13 months, efficiencies. Contrary to what Conservative Members and then contributed money back into the council tax say, most councils do that. The idea that they can be coffers, as well as providing a brand-new facility for turned around in one year is absolute nonsense, as is the local residents. idea that it is possible to avoid front-line service cuts in Members have already talked about the need for County Durham by halving the chief executive’s pay or better procurement and shared services across borders. cutting down on the number of pot plants. For the We were one of the first local authorities to combine the Minister to claim from the Dispatch Box that these cuts lead for adult social services with the primary care trust, can be made in councils like Durham without any effect so that there was one chief executive. Rather than on front-line services is absolute nonsense. No organisation, having two competing organisations, they were working let alone a council, could take out such an amount— together. It saved costs and we had just one priority. something like 23% of its budget—without it having Finally, the opportunities presented through the business any effect. rates scheme and the new homes bonus provide local authorities with an incentive, as they are rewarded for Steve Rotheram: My hon. Friend will be aware that doing the right thing. I remember the number of times Liverpool city council is one of the highest ranking in that businesses would come to us and say, “You should the indices of multiple deprivation, yet it suffered an be doing far more to promote us,” but there was no 8.8% cut worth £91 million last year, it is having a financial incentive to do so; in fact, sometimes there £50 million cut this year and a £25 million cut next year. was a disincentive. However, we now have a real opportunity. Can he understand the Minister’s argument that this Although these are challenging times, we must never new methodology will somehow make things fairer? forget that we are here to represent hard-pressed council tax payers. Despite the challenging figures that people Mr Jones: Well, it will not make it fairer; it will make have to find, there are plenty of opportunities to improve it more unfair. The Secretary of State knows exactly front-line services and protect the hard-pressed council what he is doing politically; he is rewarding the people tax payer. who vote Conservative. The formula grant for children’s services is another 6.3 pm element that puts pressure on councils in the north of England, especially if we look at the detail. That grant Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): The hon. has been cut, and I have to tell the hon. Member for Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Annette Mid Dorset and North Poole that the number of children Brooke) said that all councils start on the same basis, in care in councils such as Middlesbrough is huge in but that is the fundamental problem: they do not. What comparison with the number in Dorset. The cut thus this Government are doing in the settlement—we also has a disproportionate effect on councils in County saw this last week, in the Local Government Finance Durham and in other northern cities in comparison Bill—is rewarding the councils that vote Conservative with councils in the hon. Lady’s area. Another issue is in the south of England. They are building that into the the damping mechanism. Nine out of 12 councils in the system, possibly for the next 10 years, because the north-east lose out under that process. proposed use of the 2012-13 grant as a baseline for I must take my hat off to the Secretary of State for his 2013-14 will mean that injustice continuing in years to clever use of percentages when what we should really come. look at is cash. When cash is taken into account rather What we are basically seeing is an unfair system in than percentages, we find councils like South Tyneside, which councils in deprived areas—we have heard some Hartlepool and Middlesbrough losing money through examples today, such as Knowsley and others—are the damping mechanism, so that they have to pay to paying for more affluent areas, which is the reverse of help “deprived”areas like Windsor, Maidenhead, Richmond redistribution. If we look at how the system has been upon Thames and, my old favourite, Wokingham. Let designed, we see three reasons why that is happening. us compare Hartlepool to Wokingham.Under the damping One is the abolition of council tax resource equalisation, mechanism, Hartlepool pays to support Wokingham. which ran from 1993-94 to 2010-11. It took deprivation Hartlepool faces a cut of £142, that is 5.7%, in spending 397 Local Government Finance8 FEBRUARY 2012 Local Government Finance 398 per dwelling and then has to provide under the damping benefit are not all on benefit; many of them are in mechanism £5—0.2%—for every dwelling, which helps low-paid work and they will be disproportionately affected to protect Wokingham. Wokingham faces only a £27 cut by these proposals. per household, or 1.5%—only half what the Minister The Government know exactly what they are doing. says is the average. They are devolving responsibility to local councils and We heard it said in last week’s debates on the Local with it devolving the blame. They are trying to give the Government Finance Bill that the system is complex impression to local people that they have nothing to do and that the Government are simplifying it, but they are with the cuts that are coming in County Durham and not. They are putting in place a mechanism that will other northern councils because of this mechanism, but reward affluent areas. It takes away the one thing that they have. Only one person is responsible for this: the equalisation did, which was to ensure there was a level Secretary of State. playing field. That will no longer be the case under this system. Northern councils such as those mentioned in Several hon. Members rose— earlier examples are taking disproportionate cuts as well as having added costs in running their services Mr Speaker: Order. May I just point out that the because of high levels of unemployment, high numbers Front-Bench winding-up speeches will begin at 6.27 pm, of individuals needing social care and the numbers of so we have a little under 14 minutes and two speakers looked-after children. Those services place huge costs remaining. I know that the hon. Member for Portsmouth on those councils, which other councils do not have. South (Mr Hancock) will be gracious and courteous in wishing to share his time with the right hon. Member Derek Twigg: My hon. Friend is making a very good for Knowsley (Mr Howarth). speech. Does he recall the Chancellor saying: “We are all in this together. I am not going to balance the 6.14 pm budget on the backs of the poor”? Mr Mike Hancock (Portsmouth South) (LD): I will As my hon. Friend has heard tonight in relation to try to take your lead and be as gracious and courteous Knowsley, Halton and other areas, that is exactly what as you are, Mr Speaker. the Chancellor is doing—he is hitting the most deprived Once again, I am very disappointed. First, I have to areas the most. register my interest as an existing and long-serving member of Portsmouth city council. I would have hoped Mr Jones: Exactly. We hear a lot of this nonsense and that in the past month or so those Ministers in the the soundbite that we are all in it together but we are Department who have had experience in local government not. The Government are protecting their own affluent would have been reading and listening to what their areas at the expense of others. I think that under the former colleagues in local government have been saying Thatcher Government, Liverpool was written off at one to them about the problems with the current settlement time, and the current Government are clearly writing and with what is being stored up for the next year or off certain areas. two. The other alternative is to raise council tax. We heard It was not easy for the Tory leader of Surrey county earlier the new localisation of business rates being council to say that Surrey would decline to take the trumpeted as something that will bring in huge amounts gimmick from the Government to keep the council tax of cash, but it is a damn sight easier to raise investment down. I am sure that he did it with a heavy heart, but, as and to attract business to parts of the City of Westminster he rightly said—this was recounted again here this than it is to parts of Ashington in Northumberland or afternoon—it is better take the pain when it is evenly Seaham in Durham. The ability of councils to attract spread, and when one is at least in control of it, than to business will be limited, so the areas that will gain from accept a short-term gain only to experience a very that change will be those affluent councils. Similarly, long-term pain. I think that there is something seriously the councils that will benefit from the changes regarding wrong when a Minister, such as the Minister who opened the new homes bonus will be those where house building today’s debate, can give no explanation whatsoever, and is still going on. The house building market in the can offer no hope to local authorities such as my own north-east is flatlining, thanks to the economic policies which accepted the 2.5% gimmick cut. I tried to persuade of this Government, and people are not building many my colleagues not to do it, but they chose to take the new houses, so even those areas that have available sites opposite view. are not going to gain. For us, that will pose a real problem. In my local Another issue is the ability of local councils to raise authority, the shunted costs—the responsibilities that funding through council tax. In the north-east, 50% of are being pushed down to us—amount to £1.8 million. properties are in band A, whereas the figure in Surrey is That is the extra sum that we shall have to find to pay about 2%, so even if there were an equal council tax rise for services for which we never had to budget before. in both areas, Surrey would have a greater ability to Examples that have been given are the full recovery of raise large amounts of money than the north-east. The the cost of court proceedings, discretionary housing difference is quite stark. In addition, there is the problem benefit payments, a 50% cut in the community safety that is coming down the road with the localisation of grant, section 117 cases, concessionary fares, what is council tax benefit, which will come with a 10% cut. described as That is another cut for councils that have large numbers “Concessionary Fares Increase Care of New Back Office System” of people. My hon. Friend the Member for Warrington —which has been demanded by the Department for North (Helen Jones) has made the very good point, Transport—and the youth justice system. That £1.8 million which I keep reiterating, that people on council tax comes on top of a 10% cut. 399 Local Government Finance8 FEBRUARY 2012 Local Government Finance 400

[Mr Mike Hancock] and understands why arrangements such as floors, ceilings and damping are put in place. Unless that is locked in, I was disappointed when the hon. Member for Knowsley, which is already suffering very badly from Beckenham (Bob Stewart) asked whether it would be the current system, stands to lose £6 million. I therefore easier to explain all this in terms of percentages. I do hope the Government give serious consideration to not care how people explain it. It is painful, difficult locking in that system—and in particular to locking in and awkward for local authorities to do anything, and the floor, not least because it is especially important for they have not acted irresponsibly. The days when Ministers Knowsley. were able to cite the irresponsible council are long gone. As was pointed out earlier, no council has avoided In order to illustrate the importance of this point, we making efficiency savings. It is in our interest to make have to mention the figures. Last year, Knowsley’s cut such savings, and we have tried desperately hard to in revenue spending per head of population was already make them. £156, compared with the average across England of £49.18. The added effect of this settlement will make Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD): Will the hon. that problem even more serious. Gentleman give way? Let me give one more set of statistics before I address Mr Hancock: Yes, but my hon. Friend must be very the substance of my argument. SIGOMA—the special quick. interest group of municipal authorities—represents the local authorities of several Members, and my right hon. Mr Ward: I will be. Friend the shadow Home Secretary prayed it in aid earlier. It tells a story about funding growth. The lowest My hon. Friend has mentioned percentages. I hope ranking local authorities over the period it addresses he agrees that the real issue is gearing. A 10% cut in an are Liverpool with growth of 21.9%, Knowsley with authority with an 80% gearing of formula grant to the 21.9%, Bury with 21%, Wirral with 21% and South rest of its funding will mean an 8% reduction in its Tyneside with 22.7%. These statistics are pretty meaningless overall budget, whereas if only 20% of an authority’s unless we know what to compare them with. Perhaps funding comes from formula grant, it will experience a the best comparison is with those authorities that will reduction of only 2%. That is the big issue. have the greatest growth. They are the City of London with a staggering 139.6%, Westminster with 90.7%, Mr Hancock: My hon. Friend’s point is well made, Hillingdon with 40.6%, Camden with 37.5% and—guess but it is falling on deaf ears. It has been made time and what—Kensington and Chelsea with 34.5%. That cannot time again. It was made last year, for instance. It is be fair. unfortunate that no one is listening, and it is very unfair and very disrespectful to Members who serve in local The Minister who opened the debate, the right hon. government. Next year, Tory councillors who will be Member for Welwyn Hatfield (Grant Shapps), engaged defending their seats in the county council elections will in quite a bit of sophistry, and my hon. Friend the hope against hope that the Government will pull some Member for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts) exposed, sort of rabbit out of the hat to safeguard them from as it were, the raw nerve in his argument. Astonishingly, having to impose pretty horrendous council tax rises. the Minister argued that a local authority with high This afternoon’s debate is a fait accompli. We shall need will probably already have a high level of grant vote either for or against the motion. I shall vote against and therefore should expect to have more grant cut in it, and I hope that my colleagues who have served or are the future. I do not think there is a better term to still serving in local government will do so as well, describe that argument than “sophistry.” because this is not doing the cause of local government and local democracy any good. For Ministers not to be The Minister also said there was plenty of room for able to answer even the simplest, most fundamental cuts and for reform and changes to the system. He question about where we go from here is totally stated that we could improve things and that lots of unacceptable and unfair. As Members have said repeatedly, money would be saved. Specifically, he said he wanted this is shifting the blame. It means more responsibility, to cut the red tape in tendering. The Minister is not in fewer resources, and indeed more blame—not for his place at present, but no doubt he will return at some Government, but for local government. point in the proceedings. I do not know whether he has ever sat in on a local authority tender-opening process, 6.18 pm and I certainly do not know what he is thinking about when he refers to red tape in that regard. As several Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab): It is a great other Members present will be able to confirm, this is pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Portsmouth what happens in such a tendering process: people go South (Mr Hancock). I think I said that in a debate into a room, the envelopes are opened, and the amount about a week ago. I meant it then, and I mean it now. of money each contractor has tendered for the job is The Government really should listen to what the hon. read out, and in the end, unless there is good reason to Gentleman has to say, given his long experience of local do otherwise, the process concludes with the declaration, government and of the problems that he has just described. “We accept tender X”—or Y or Z—“subject to checking.” The hon. Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole The red tape is contained in precisely that term: “subject (Annette Brooke) cautioned the Government against to checking.” The checking involves council officers blocking in the damping system. I shall make the opposite working out whether the firm involved can do the job point, however. The Minister currently on the Front and has the resources to ensure that it is completed. Bench, the hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst That is what the red tape, on which we are going to save (Robert Neill), has a long background in local government millions of pounds, consists of. 401 Local Government Finance8 FEBRUARY 2012 Local Government Finance 402

Mr Mike Hancock: I was confused when that list was see the poorest paying the price and, in the second year being read out. Was the right hon. Gentleman as confused of this settlement, the damage being inflicted on the as I was when it was said that local authorities should most vulnerable people. do more about procurement fraud? Was it seriously As my hon. Friend the Member for Denton and being suggested that when local authorities know about Reddish (Andrew Gwynne) reminded us, the Government such fraud, they do nothing about it? That was mind- began with cuts in the working neighbourhoods fund boggling. and the Supporting People grant, which helped 1 million people, including victims of domestic violence and people Mr Howarth: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for with mental health problems. The Government have that, but the point is that unless there is a rigorous, gone on to entrench that unfairness in the system and properly policed tendering process, the potential for so we see, for example, that by the end of the two-year fraud is even greater. period Liverpool will have lost £235 per person in I will conclude as I know that my hon. Friend the spending power, Manchester’s figure will be £186, Member for Warrington North (Helen Jones) has plenty Birmingham’s will be £155 and Nottingham’s will be more to say.Whatever decision my Front-Bench colleagues £147. Those are the cities that the Government say are reached, given the extent to which this motion discriminates going to lead our economic revival. It is not even a case against local authorities such as Knowsley, there is no of one half of the Government not knowing what the way I could support it today. I am happy to join them in other half is doing, because one half of the Department the Lobby because this is a despicable measure, and I does not know what the other half of the Department is suspect that the Under-Secretary, in his quiet moments—if doing either. there are any—feels the same as I do. Let us have a look at what happens in other authority areas. Wokinghamcouncil, our favourite authority, actually gains overall from this settlement. Dorset, taken as a 6.26 pm whole, has a cut of 10p per person, while the figure for Richmond upon Thames is 80p and the figure for the Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab): We have heard Windsor and Maidenhead authority is a massive, by its numerous examples of the damage being inflicted on standards, £2.20. What do many of those authorities local communities by the Government’s slash and burn have in common? They contain the constituencies of approach to local authority spending. It has inflicted on Cabinet Ministers. Does that not make into nonsense councils larger cuts than any Government Department this statement from the Deputy Prime Minister: has taken, without planning or looking at the effect on “Our core aim is to hard-wire fairness back into national life”? individuals, and even without any thought of the longer- term economic consequences. Tell that to the people who have lost their Sure Start programmes, and to the elderly people and disabled My hon. Friends have highlighted the situation very people who are paying more for home care or who are well. My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield South not getting that care at all because the eligibility criteria East (Mr Betts) talked about front-loading of the cuts have changed. making it impossible to plan, and the uncertainty local councils face. My hon. Friend the Member for North Bill Esterson rose— Tyneside (Mrs Glindon) gave powerful examples of what is happening, and talked about the cuts in school Helen Jones: My hon. Friend will have to forgive me food provision and the increase in home care charges. for not giving way, but we are short on time. My hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) talked about the injustice of the cuts to front-line services Tell that to the people whose community centres, in his area, and my right hon. Friend the Member for libraries and day centres have closed. The truth, which Knowsley (Mr Howarth), speaking for one of the most Government Members have to face, is very simple: deprived authorities in the country, highlighted how the people who are wealthy can buy themselves out of those cuts are being inflicted on the poorest communities. All cuts, because they can pay for care and buy their books, have shown how people are having to live with the harsh but the people the cuts hit most are those who cannot realities of life under this Government. do that. I am talking about the people who have paid their taxes all their life and then find that they cannot Of course, the Government, far from trying to hide get care in their old age and that their sons and daughters the fact that they are hitting the poorest most, are quite are caught between trying to look after them, to work up-front about it. The Under-Secretary of State for and to look after their children. I am talking about the Communities and Local Government, the hon. Member families on low wages who go out to work every day and for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill), in a quote want their children to get on but cannot afford to buy he should be reminded of again and again, said: all the books they would like and are dependent on their “Those in greatest need ultimately bear the burden of paying libraries. [Interruption.] I hear the muttering from the off the debt”.—[Official Report, 10 June 2010; Vol. 511, c. 450.] Parliamentary Private Secretaries and I know that the That’s it then—not the bankers, not the millionaires in Tories are going to say, “We do not do this because we the Cabinet; the poorest pay the price. Same old Tories, want to, but because we have to.” Let us start nailing and, apart from the hon. Member for Portsmouth South that myth, shall we? (Mr Hancock), same old Lib Dems: always telling us In the year from autumn 2009 to autumn 2010 the they are going to do “something”—we know not what— economy grew at 3.9% and unemployment was falling. and then trooping through the Lobby desperate to hang So successful have the Tories been that the economy is on to their chance of a ministerial car. It is said that it now in negative growth, the level of unemployment is profits a man nothing to give his soul for the whole nearly 2.7 million and, scandalously, one in five of our world—but for a Honda Civic? Really! Once again, we young people is unemployed—and borrowing is increasing. 403 Local Government Finance8 FEBRUARY 2012 Local Government Finance 404

[Helen Jones] 6.36 pm

The Government’s approach has not worked. They The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for could, of course, have worked with local authorities on Communities and Local Government (Robert Neill): The long-term savings and they could have assisted local debate has at times been a little like my experience in authorities to use their spending power to help tackle local government since I was first elected in 1974. There those problems. Before they started their cuts, the local have been some serious and important contributions, authority procurement budget was £34.2 billion, most some genuine commitment, and passages—particularly of which was spent with small and medium-sized firms. towards the end—of the utterly surreal. Towards the Councils such as Tameside—it did this through its end of my local government career, I was dealing with Tameside investment project—were using their purchasing Mr Ken Livingstone, and I have just listened to the hon. power not only to build new schools, but to assist local Member for Warrington North (Helen Jones) summing firms; it put £15 million into local companies. up—surrealism comes at the end. I am afraid that the official Opposition throw away any sense of credibility Andrew Gwynne: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for when they resort to the sort of rant that misses the mentioning “Tameside Works First”, the initiative of fundamental reason why the tough settlement—my hon. my local authority. Is she also aware that Tameside Friend the Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole council had 700 young people on the future jobs fund, (Annette Brooke) and others said that it is tough, which which was scrapped by this Government? I accept, and the Government have never pretended that it is anything else—is necessary. Helen Jones: My hon. Friend makes a good point, Why is it, sadly, necessary to have these reductions in and I shall be dealing with that matter in a moment. public spending? Why does local government, as 25% of The Government could have worked with local authorities public spending, have to bear a share? The Labour to use that purchasing power, but what they failed to party bankrupted the country. Its shameful failure has understand was that when it is cut too far, too fast, made every reduction necessary and the mealy-mouthed those local companies do not expand—they contract or and, to many people in local government, distasteful go bust. The Government, while taking that approach, unwillingness to accept responsibility condemns Labour have taken away every lever local authorities had to help Members from their own mouths. It condemns them to their local economies. Nottingham alone lost £6.5 million having no credibility and it is why, ultimately, they see from the scrapping of the future jobs fund. My hon. the results they do in the opinion polls. It is no good Friend the Member for Denton and Reddish has mentioned blaming their leader, as it is not just that they do not Tameside—[Interruption.] If the Minister wants to listen to him but that nobody is listening to them. It is intervene, I will be happy to let him. interesting that the Leader of the Opposition apparently recognises that there must be deficit reduction because Grant Shapps: Will the hon. Lady repeat something of the mess that his Government left, and the shadow we heard for the first time in the Chamber a couple of Chancellor appears to agree with that—it is about the hours ago, which is that those on the Front Bench only thing they do agree on, of course—but it never deplore the fact that Nottingham city council will not permeates down, as far as I can see, to the rest of the publish its expenditure online? shadow Cabinet, never mind to anybody else. We have heard not a word about what the Labour party would have done to help local government in dealing with the Helen Jones: We believe that all councils should publish inheritance that it left. their expenditure and we would like the DCLG to set an example by not being so far behind the curve in publishing The coalition Government have faced up to economic its expenditure, too. necessity and have also given progressive, sensible tools to help local government through the immediate situation The Government took away the community growth and out of it. The Government inherited the formula fund and abolished regional development agencies. brought in by Labour towards the end of its period in Scandalously, they will not even let local authorities government. We have had that formula grant for a long participate in the Work programme so that the very time and it has always, as we know, contained an people who understand their local communities best element of ministerial discretion. The lack of transparency and have long-term relationships with local businesses in how it operated quite rightly leads my hon. Friend are excluded from it. That is the problem with this the Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) and settlement. It is sending local areas, many of them the others to say that some people had suspicions about the most deprived in the country, into a spiral of decline. objectiveness with which Labour used that formula. People are facing cuts to services, increases in charges and a loss of jobs. Instead, what we have done is to increase the weighting Some 129,000 local government jobs have already given to the needs element in the formula for this year’s gone and more than 700,000 are likely to go. What settlement to help those most in need, and for the happens then? Those people cannot spend money in the longer term to move towards a more transparent system local economy, so private businesses lose revenue and as whereby local authorities can retain growth in the business they suffer they lay people off. Local councils are locked rate and reward those who are entrepreneurial and in a spiral of more and more demands on their services go-ahead and want to do the best for their areas, rather and less and less revenue. That is why we oppose this than saying, “We must be locked for ever in a counsel of settlement. It is unfair, it hits the poorest most and, despair”, which involves grant dependency. One of the most of all, it is economically illiterate. I urge my hon. saddest aspects of this debate is the number of Opposition Friends to oppose it tonight. Members who have experience in local government but 405 Local Government Finance8 FEBRUARY 2012 Local Government Finance 406 who are locked into that counsel of despair because Better procurement is an important issue and it should they do not have enough faith in their own people and not be sneered at, as some hon. Members did. My hon. those who work for them. Friend the Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole is right to remind people that smaller authorities in rural Several hon. Members rose— areas often have less flexibility in managing budget pressures than larger authorities. We must recognise, Robert Neill: I shall give way once and once only, to therefore, that we cannot necessarily draw comparisons. the right hon. Member for Knowsley (Mr Howarth). Our system specifically builds in fairness, not only because we have increased the needs element in the formula—I know it is a shock to Opposition Members, because Mr George Howarth: I am grateful to the Minister. they have the intellectual arrogance to think that only He is making a speech about local government finance. they have a conception of fairness—that they have a Has he noticed that he has not mentioned a single figure monopoly on the subject. yet? That is the fundamental arrogance that got Labour into opposition after all those years. The Opposition Robert Neill: Since the settlement is set out in reams promised the electorate in their 1997 manifesto that of paper, I need not trouble the right hon. Gentleman they would hand back the business rate to councils, and too much with that, though he might like to know that they spent 13 years not doing that. The right hon. the right hon. Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn), Member for Leeds Central said that he wanted certainty. I regret to say, fell—unintentionally, I am sure—into Did it take him 13 years to be certain that he would not error in his point about expenditure. The disabled facilities do it? That is what he managed to do. Instead, the grant has in fact been increased this year, as it was last coalition is getting on with it. Although it is not easy to year. It was increased by a further £20 million. It has fix a broken system, the coalition is making an honest gone up from £167 million to £187 million, and it will stab, and local government deserves— go up to £207 million next year. It is worth saying that central Government are providing Derek Twigg rose— £27.8 billion in all by way of formula grant to local authorities. In addition there are further specific grants. Robert Neill: I have given way twice already and It is also worth saying, if the right hon. Member for made it clear that I will not do so again. I am sorry, but Knowsley would like some figures, that we are providing I do not want the hon. Gentleman to get too worked up a further £20 million in transition grant this year. That about it. I want to be fair to the right hon. Member for makes up for the slack in budgets that came when the Leeds Central by responding to his other specific point. Labour Government brought working neighbourhoods With regard to the top-slicing of the local authority funds to an end, quite deliberately and in a planned central services equivalent grant, my right hon. Friend fashion. the Secretary of State will of course make an announcement in due course. As always, that is being considered through Brandon Lewis rose— discussions between Government Departments. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will welcome the fact Robert Neill: I will give way just once, then I must that the Secretary of State, in making his decisions, has make progress. taken note of a number of recommendations and concerns raised by local authorities. We must strike a fair balance Brandon Lewis: I thank the Minister for giving way. in that regard and will do so. In relation to pooling and Does he agree that one of the figures that is most whether there will be a surplus, I think that— important to the people whom we are here to represent is the one that relates to their council tax? The Government Derek Twigg: Will the Minister give way? have allowed it to be frozen for a second year, which is a vast improvement on the years of multiple increases Robert Neill: I hope that the hon. Gentleman will do under the previous Government. me the courtesy of letting me answer his party’s spokesman. The right hon. Gentleman referred to pooling, but I Robert Neill: It is ironic that we heard very little think that he meant the provisions under the Local about whether the Opposition will encourage Labour Government Finance Act 1988 by which the totality of councils to take the council tax freeze. I hope they will. the money raised by the national non-domestic rate, the Following the damascene conversion of the shadow business rate, must be returned to local government. Secretary of State to condemning the lack of transparency That continues to be the case. In this year, when the of Nottingham city council, I hope he will say that totality of non-domestic rate raised was more than the whatever the Opposition think about the Government formula grant, the rest was returned by way of grant to overall, it is necessary above all to protect council tax local authorities outside formula grant, and that remains payers and hard-pressed families and to adopt the council an option. Everything comes back to local government tax freeze. one way or the other, and that is the statutory requirement Many authorities are doing that and they are using that the Government have consistently met. the breathing space. We have said that this year, because The right hon. Members for Wentworth and Dearne of the economic mess that we inherited, it is a one-year (John Healey) and for Leeds Central asked about payment. Last year’s payment will be throughout the referendums and what does and does not qualify. spending period. It gives local authorities a breathing Referendum provisions apply to the billing authority in space in which to manage the reconfiguration of their a two-tier area—a district or unitary council or a London services. Good authorities are doing that. borough—and to major precepting authorities: a county 407 Local Government Finance8 FEBRUARY 2012 Local Government Finance 408

[Robert Neill] Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Javid, Sajid Dorries, Nadine Jenkin, Mr Bernard council, police authority or fire authority. In each case Doyle-Price, Jackie Johnson, Gareth it is their own element that is subject to the referendum, Drax, Richard Johnson, Joseph so the district council cannot be forced into a referendum Duddridge, James Jones, Mr David because of an increase by the county council, or vice Duncan, rh Mr Alan Jones, Mr Marcus Dunne, Mr Philip Kawczynski, Daniel versa. When we talk about levies, we are not talking Ellis, Michael Kelly, Chris about precepts, as the right hon. Member for Leeds Ellwood, Mr Tobias Kirby, Simon Central knows, but about the rather more technical Elphicke, Charlie Knight, rh Mr Greg payments that we generally get from passenger transport Eustice, George Kwarteng, Kwasi authorities or drainage boards— Evans, Graham Laing, Mrs Eleanor Evans, Jonathan Lamb, Norman 6.47 pm Evennett, Mr David Lancaster, Mark Six hours having elapsed since the commencement of Fabricant, Michael Latham, Pauline proceedings on the motion relating to Police, the Deputy Featherstone, Lynne Laws, rh Mr David Field, Mark Lee, Jessica Speaker put the Question (Order, 6 February). Foster, rh Mr Don Leech, Mr John Question agreed to. Fox,rhDrLiam Leigh, Mr Edward Resolved, Francois, rh Mr Mark Leslie, Charlotte Freeman, George Letwin, rh Mr Oliver That the Referendums Relating to Council Tax Increases Freer, Mike Lewis, Brandon (Principles) (England) Report 2012-13, which was laid before this House on 31 January, be approved. Fullbrook, Lorraine Lewis, Dr Julian Gale, Sir Roger Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian The Deputy Speaker then put the Question necessary Garnier, Mr Edward Lidington, rh Mr David for the disposal of the business to be concluded at that Garnier, Mark Lilley, rh Mr Peter time (Order, 6 February) Gauke, Mr David Lloyd, Stephen Motion made, and Question put, George, Andrew Lord, Jonathan Gibb, Mr Nick Loughton, Tim That the Local Government Finance Report (England) 2012-13 Gilbert, Stephen Luff, Peter (HC 1801), which was laid before this House on 31 January, be approved.—[Robert Neill.] Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lumley, Karen Glen, John Macleod, Mary The House divided: Ayes 292, Noes 213. Goldsmith, Zac Main, Mrs Anne Division No. 470] [6.47 pm Goodwill, Mr Robert Maude, rh Mr Francis Graham, Richard May, rh Mrs Theresa AYES Grant, Mrs Helen Maynard, Paul Gray, Mr James McCartney, Jason Adams, Nigel Brine, Steve Grayling, rh Chris McCartney, Karl Afriyie, Adam Brooke, Annette Green, Damian McIntosh, Miss Anne Aldous, Peter Browne, Mr Jeremy Greening, rh Justine McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Amess, Mr David Bruce, Fiona Griffiths, Andrew McPartland, Stephen Andrew, Stuart Buckland, Mr Robert Gummer, Ben McVey, Esther Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Burns, Conor Gyimah, Mr Sam Menzies, Mark Bacon, Mr Richard Burns, rh Mr Simon Halfon, Robert Mercer, Patrick Baker, Norman Burrowes, Mr David Hames, Duncan Metcalfe, Stephen Baker, Steve Burstow, Paul Hammond, rh Mr Philip Miller, Maria Baldry, Tony Burt, Alistair Hammond, Stephen Milton, Anne Baldwin, Harriett Burt, Lorely Hancock, Matthew Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Barclay, Stephen Byles, Dan Hands, Greg Moore, rh Michael Barker, Gregory Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Harper, Mr Mark Mordaunt, Penny Barwell, Gavin Carmichael, Neil Harrington, Richard Morgan, Nicky Bebb, Guto Carswell, Mr Douglas Hart, Simon Morris, Anne Marie Beith, rh Sir Alan Chishti, Rehman Harvey, Nick Morris, David Bellingham, Mr Henry Chope, Mr Christopher Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Morris, James Benyon, Richard Clappison, Mr James Heald, Oliver Mosley, Stephen Beresford, Sir Paul Clark, rh Greg Heath, Mr David Mowat, David Berry, Jake Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Heaton-Harris, Chris Mulholland, Greg Bingham, Andrew Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hemming, John Mundell, rh David Binley, Mr Brian Collins, Damian Henderson, Gordon Munt, Tessa Birtwistle, Gordon Colvile, Oliver Herbert, rh Nick Murray, Sheryll Blackman, Bob Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hinds, Damian Murrison, Dr Andrew Blackwood, Nicola Crabb, Stephen Hoban, Mr Mark Neill, Robert Blunt, Mr Crispin Crockart, Mike Hollingbery, George Newmark, Mr Brooks Boles, Nick Crouch, Tracey Hollobone, Mr Philip Newton, Sarah Bone, Mr Peter Davey, Mr Edward Holloway, Mr Adam Nuttall, Mr David Bottomley, Sir Peter Davies, David T. C. Hopkins, Kris Offord, Mr Matthew Bradley, Karen (Monmouth) Horwood, Martin Ollerenshaw, Eric Brady, Mr Graham Davies, Glyn Howell, John Ottaway, Richard Brake, rh Tom Davies, Philip Huppert, Dr Julian Parish, Neil Bray, Angie de Bois, Nick Hurd, Mr Nick Patel, Priti Brazier, Mr Julian Dinenage, Caroline Jackson, Mr Stewart Paterson, rh Mr Owen Bridgen, Andrew Djanogly, Mr Jonathan James, Margot Pawsey, Mark 409 Local Government Finance8 FEBRUARY 2012 Local Government Finance 410

Penning, Mike Stride, Mel Dobson, rh Frank Long, Naomi Penrose, John Sturdy, Julian Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Lucas, Caroline Percy, Andrew Swales, Ian Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Lucas, Ian Perry, Claire Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Mactaggart, Fiona Phillips, Stephen Swinson, Jo Doran, Mr Frank Mahmood, Mr Khalid Pincher, Christopher Swire, rh Mr Hugo Dowd, Jim Mahmood, Shabana Poulter, Dr Daniel Syms, Mr Robert Doyle, Gemma Malhotra, Seema Pugh, John Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Dromey, Jack Marsden, Mr Gordon Randall, rh Mr John Teather, Sarah Dugher, Michael McCabe, Steve Reckless, Mark Timpson, Mr Edward Eagle, Ms Angela McCann, Mr Michael Redwood, rh Mr John Tomlinson, Justin Eagle, Maria McCarthy, Kerry Rees-Mogg, Jacob Truss, Elizabeth Efford, Clive McClymont, Gregg Reid, Mr Alan Turner, Mr Andrew Elliott, Julie McDonagh, Siobhain Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Uppal, Paul Ellman, Mrs Louise McDonnell, John Esterson, Bill McGovern, Jim Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Vaizey, Mr Edward Robertson, Hugh Evans, Chris McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Vickers, Martin Robertson, Mr Laurence Field, rh Mr Frank McKechin, Ann Walker, Mr Charles Rosindell, Andrew Fitzpatrick, Jim McKenzie, Mr Iain Walker, Mr Robin Rudd, Amber Flello, Robert McKinnell, Catherine Walter, Mr Robert Ruffley, Mr David Flint, rh Caroline Michael, rh Alun Russell, Sir Bob Watkinson, Angela Flynn, Paul Miliband, rh David Rutley, David Weatherley, Mike Fovargue, Yvonne Miller, Andrew Sanders, Mr Adrian Wharton, James Francis, Dr Hywel Mitchell, Austin Sandys, Laura Wheeler, Heather Gapes, Mike Morden, Jessica Scott, Mr Lee White, Chris Gilmore, Sheila Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Selous, Andrew Whittingdale, Mr John Glindon, Mrs Mary Morris, Grahame M. Shapps, rh Grant Wiggin, Bill Goggins, rh Paul (Easington) Sharma, Alok Williams, Mr Mark Goodman, Helen Mudie, Mr George Shelbrooke, Alec Williams, Roger Greatrex, Tom Murphy, rh Mr Jim Shepherd, Mr Richard Williams, Stephen Green, Kate Murphy, rh Paul Simpson, Mr Keith Williamson, Gavin Griffith, Nia Murray, Ian Skidmore, Chris Willott, Jenny Gwynne, Andrew Nash, Pamela Smith, Miss Chloe Wilson, Mr Rob Hamilton, Mr David O’Donnell, Fiona Smith, Henry Wollaston, Dr Sarah Hamilton, Fabian Onwurah, Chi Smith, Julian Wright, Simon Hancock, Mr Mike Osborne, Sandra Hanson, rh Mr David Owen, Albert Soubry, Anna Yeo, Mr Tim Spencer, Mr Mark Harman, rh Ms Harriet Pearce, Teresa Young, rh Sir George Stanley, rh Sir John Harris, Mr Tom Perkins, Toby Zahawi, Nadhim Stephenson, Andrew Havard, Mr Dai Pound, Stephen Stevenson, John Tellers for the Ayes: Healey, rh John Qureshi, Yasmin Stewart, Bob Mark Hunter and Hendrick, Mark Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Stewart, Iain Mr Shailesh Vara Hepburn, Mr Stephen Reed, Mr Jamie Hermon, Lady Reeves, Rachel NOES Heyes, David Reynolds, Jonathan Hillier, Meg Riordan, Mrs Linda Abbott, Ms Diane Bryant, Chris Hilling, Julie Robertson, John Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Buck, Ms Karen Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Burden, Richard Hoey, Kate Rotheram, Steve Alexander, Heidi Byrne, rh Mr Liam Hopkins, Kelvin Roy, Lindsay Ali, Rushanara Campbell, Mr Alan Howarth, rh Mr George Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Allen, Mr Graham Campbell, Mr Ronnie Hunt, Tristram Sarwar, Anas Anderson, Mr David Chapman, Mrs Jenny Irranca-Davies, Huw Seabeck, Alison Ashworth, Jonathan Clark, Katy Jackson, Glenda Shannon, Jim Austin, Ian Clarke, rh Mr Tom James, Mrs Siân C. Sheerman, Mr Barry Bailey, Mr Adrian Clwyd, rh Ann Jamieson, Cathy Sheridan, Jim Bain, Mr William Coaker, Vernon Jarvis, Dan Skinner, Mr Dennis Balls, rh Ed Coffey, Ann Johnson, rh Alan Slaughter, Mr Andy Barron, rh Mr Kevin Connarty, Michael Johnson, Diana Smith, rh Mr Andrew Bayley, Hugh Cooper, Rosie Jones, Helen Smith, Angela Beckett, rh Margaret Corbyn, Jeremy Jones, Mr Kevan Smith, Owen Begg, Dame Anne Creasy, Stella Jones, Susan Elan Spellar, rh Mr John Benn, rh Hilary Cryer, John Joyce, Eric Straw, rh Mr Jack Benton, Mr Joe Cunningham, Mr Jim Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Stuart, Ms Gisela Berger, Luciana Cunningham, Tony Keeley, Barbara Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Betts, Mr Clive Dakin, Nic Kendall, Liz Tami, Mark Blackman-Woods, Roberta Danczuk, Simon Khan, rh Sadiq Thomas, Mr Gareth Blears, rh Hazel David, Mr Wayne Lammy, rh Mr David Thornberry, Emily Blomfield, Paul Davidson, Mr Ian Lavery, Ian Timms, rh Stephen Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Davies, Geraint Lazarowicz, Mark Trickett, Jon Brown, Lyn De Piero, Gloria Leslie, Chris Turner, Karl Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Denham, rh Mr John Lewis, Mr Ivan Twigg, Derek Brown, Mr Russell Dobbin, Jim Lloyd, Tony Twigg, Stephen 411 Local Government Finance8 FEBRUARY 2012 Local Government Finance 412

Umunna, Mr Chuka Winterton, rh Ms Rosie to. On the motion relating to the mayoral referendum Vaz, rh Keith Wood, Mike for Newcastle upon Tyne, the Ayes were 317 and the Vaz, Valerie Woodcock, John Noes were 201, so the Question was agreed to. On the Ward, Mr David Woodward, rh Mr Shaun motion relating to the mayoral referendum for Sheffield, Watts, Mr Dave Wright, David the Ayes were 316 and the Noes were 201, so the Whitehead, Dr Alan Wright, Mr Iain Question was agreed to. On the motion relating to the Wicks, rh Malcolm mayoral referendum for Coventry, the Ayes were 314 and Williamson, Chris Tellers for the Noes: Wilson, Phil Graham Jones and the Noes were 201, so the Question was agreed to. On Winnick, Mr David Tom Blenkinsop the motion relating to the mayoral referendum for Wakefield, the Ayes were 316 and the Noes were 201, so the Question was agreed to. Question accordingly agreed to. On the motion relating to broadcasting, the Ayes were 326 and the Noes were 198, so the Question was agreed to. On the motion relating to electronic Alun Michael (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op): communications, the Ayes were 325 and the Noes were On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. In his 198, so the Question was agreed to. reply to me this afternoon, the Prime Minister claimed [The Division lists are published at the end of today’s that a third of Welsh patients are waiting more than debates.] 18 weeks for treatment, when it is only a fifth, and that 27% of patients are waiting for more than six weeks for direct access to diagnostics, when it is only 18%. Those PETITION are not even the targets that the NHS in Wales works towards, so the whole basis for comparison was wrong. Proposed Closure of Rio Tinto Alcan, Lynemouth As I am sure that the Prime Minister would not wish to mislead the House or to leave such an inaccuracy 7.6 pm uncorrected, however inadvertently, will you say whether he has requested the opportunity to come back to the Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): I rise to present a House and put matters right, as he should? petition from the residents of south-east Northumberland relating to the proposed closure of the Rio Tinto Alcan aluminium smelter in my constituency. The petition states: Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Ihave had no such notification. As an experienced Member of The Petition of residents of south East Northumberland, this House, the right hon. Gentleman will know that, Declares that the Petitioners are opposed to the proposed strictly speaking, that was not a point of order. He has closure of Rio Tinto Alcan, Lynemouth. got his views on the record and I am sure that he will The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons pursue the point if he feels that he needs to. urges the Government to take all possible steps to prevent the closure of Rio Tinto Alcan, Lynemouth and to support the I now have to announce the results of Divisions workforce and those involved in the supply chain. deferred from previous days. On the motion relating to And the Petitioners remain, etc. the mayoral referendum for Manchester, the Ayes were [P001006] 315 and the Noes were 201, so the Question was agreed 413 8 FEBRUARY 2012 Stereotactic Body Radiotherapy 414

Stereotactic Body Radiotherapy based his statement. “Not really sure,” was the reply. The evidence was based on an “informal study”conducted Motion made, and Question proposed, That this by the National Cancer Action Team. NCAT also said House do now adjourn.—(Mr Newmark.) it believed there were more than 20 machines in the country that could deliver SBRT. 7.7 pm I am not a fan of Government policy making based Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): I asked for this debate on “informal studies” and vague beliefs, so I conducted because for nearly 12 months I have been questioning my own, very formal study on the availability of SBRT the Department of Health about why the latest radiotherapy in the UK. Under the terms of the Freedom of Information techniques and equipment to treat cancer patients are Act, I wrote to every hospital in the country that not being used by our NHS. I have pressed hard on this provides radiotherapy and asked each a series of questions subject because, like Cancer Care UK and many other about its ability to deliver SBRT. I am pleased to say respected organisations, I believe radiotherapy is underused that 57 replied—all but the Royal Shrewsbury hospital—and in the front line for curing cancer. very helpful they were too. This country has a history and a habit of resorting to For the record, I shall share the data with the Minister, pumping cancer patients full of pharmaceuticals. Do so he can pass them on to the Secretary of State. In not get me wrong, I am not knocking cancer drugs—many 2011, only seven centres in England and one in Scotland are highly effective and a great help to patients, and treated cancer patients with SBRT. There were no centres many cancer patients are alive today thanks to them. in Wales or Northern Ireland. Only four of the centres However, a lot of those drugs also have some pretty conducted a large enough number of procedures to horrific side effects, and patients are often reluctant to comply with national radiotherapy implementation group take them for that reason. So in reality, throughout the recommendations. Therefore, 14% offer SBRT and just latter part of the last century, heavy doses of drugs or 8% are compliant. The total number of patients treated death were almost the only choices that cancer patients in those centres was just 323. That figure is not surprising had. when we consider that, according to the hospitals, there Although there has been plentiful use of drugs are only seven machines in the country capable of throughout the last 60 years, the uptake of radiotherapy delivering SBRT—a good deal fewer than the number as a front-line treatment has been slow. Radiologists NCAT believes there are. have told me that one reason for that is they have not The Minister will not be surprised that my questioning been as successful at lobbying as the pharmaceutical did not stop there. I had also asked what indications the companies, but that is a matter for another debate. The centres treated with SBRT. The data became even more main reason why there was resistance to using radiotherapy interesting. Those centres using the Elekta or Varian in the past was its method of delivery—single large systems treated only lung cancer. Centres using the beams of radiation being fired into the body to ensure CyberKnife system treated lung cancer, but they also that the tumour at which they were aimed was radiated. treated liver, prostate, spine, breast, myeloma, sarcoma, Unfortunately, those large beams also radiated an awful head and neck, and ovarian cancers. lot of healthy tissue around a tumour, especially if the I asked the centres what their estimates for SBRT tumour was moving, and frequently caused more damage treatment in 2012 were. Again, they were very helpful in than good. Patients often complained that the side providing that information, and I place on record my effects of radiotherapy were worse than the cancer. gratitude to them for it. The centres estimate that During this century, there have been huge advances approximately 725 procedures will take place in hospitals in the delivery and accuracy of radiotherapy treatment. planning SBRT programmes for this year: 48 using the Around the world, radiosurgery is being used increasingly Varian system; 195 using the Elekta system; and 385 using to cure cancer as a front-line treatment. Stereotactic CyberKnife system. The remaining 97 procedures were body radiotherapy treatment, or SBRT, uses multiple claimed as “estimates” by centres that have not conducted very fine beams of radiation locked directly on to just any SBRT in the past, and which do not appear—from the tumour. With some new technologies the beams their responses—to have suitable equipment for conducting move as the tumour moves, ensuring that the surrounding such procedures. healthy tissue is not harmed and only the tumour is I must admit that I found that last statistic, and the radiated. fact that only four centres conducted the number Unfortunately, in the UK we are failing to embrace of procedures necessary to comply with the NRIG the new technologies that allow for the effective use of recommendations, very alarming. I, for one, would not SBRT to treat cancer patients. We are falling behind wish to be treated at a centre where the team carries out both Europe and the US. On 22 November last year, I only half a dozen procedures each year. How can it asked the Secretary of State for Health in the Chamber possibly have any expertise in such a complex treatment how many radiotherapy centres in this country were process if the staff so rarely conduct the procedure? For providing SBRT to cancer patients. When he told me the Minister to allow that to continue would be contrary the figure was 25%, I must admit to having been to the aims of the new Health and Social Care Bill and surprised—not as surprised, I would add, as some of all that the Secretary of State has said about concentrating the medical professionals I know, who found the figure resources in centres of excellence to improve patient unbelievable, but that was what he said. outcomes. Within a few days, the cancer tsar repeated that same A number of other things alarmed me when I read figure in a letter to The Times. Thus, 25% suddenly the returns from the centres. On numerous occasions, became received wisdom for the standard of provision the Minister has assured me that work is in hand by of SBRT in England. I therefore asked the Secretary of NCAT to establish a national tariff, or price tag, for State in a written question on what evidence he had SBRT, and yet, while the centres tell me they would 415 Stereotactic Body Radiotherapy8 FEBRUARY 2012 Stereotactic Body Radiotherapy 416

[Tessa Munt] If Members were expecting a happy ending to this story, I am sorry to disappoint them. Kerry went straight welcome a national tariff, they also tell me that no back to the CyberKnife people in London, but her progress is being made towards it. In fact, the vast tumour had grown so much that they could no longer majority have not even been consulted about establishing treat her. Kerry and her family now face an uncertain one. One of the most well known and respected centres future. Three months earlier, there was considerable has gone further, and said that hope that she would beat her cancer. “a national radiotherapy tariff without SBRT would be seriously The Minister will know as well as I do that if the flawed and its fitness for purpose questionable.” NRIG report had been implemented last April and an Will the Minister comment on that? SBRT tariff set at that time, North Somerset PCT would not have delayed approval for Kerry’s treatment and she would be a much healthier woman than she is Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance): The hon. Lady today. Over the past 12 months, the Department of is aware of a case involving Brian Withers, my constituent. Health has painted a very different picture of the provision He has been able to access the treatment, but has had to of SBRT in the NHS. I must say to the Minister that I self-fund to do so. One reason it was not included in his am shocked by the disparities between what the Secretary clinical pathway was that it was argued that there was of State has told me and what all the hospitals have told no clinical trial evidence for it in his situation. Does she me in answer to my freedom of information requests. agree that part of the problem is that SBRT is treated as Knowing the Minister as well as I do, I trust that it has a novel treatment for cancer as opposed to the development more to do with his officials keeping him in the dark of an existing one? Therefore, without the tariff, people than their misleading hon. Members. from other regions will not be able to access it on a routine basis. In conclusion, I would like some answers from the Minister today. Will he instruct the National Cancer Action Team to conduct a full review of the SBRT Tessa Munt: I could not agree more. As the hon. facilities available in the NHS? That review should Lady and others are well aware, I have spoken with her establish whether hospitals are using technology that is constituent, Mr Withers, and it is clear that radiosurgery fit for purpose and can treat a wide range of tumours is a well-established and proven therapy—it is just that with SBRT, and whether hospitals are conducting the we have to wait to get it. number of procedures needed to comply with the NRIG In an answer to a parliamentary question, I was told recommendations. Will he commit to speeding up the that a price tag would not be set up until 2014. NCAT process of establishing an SBRT tariff in line with the must be the only organisation in the NHS that believes NRIG recommendations, and will he start immediately it should take three years from the point that an esteemed by asking NCAT to establish a costing code? Finally, I committee recommends a national tariff until one can would like a commitment from him to investigate why be implemented. From what they tell me, the centres do decisions to fund SBRT by PCTs can ignore clinical not believe it, and I do not believe it, and I do not think opinions of medical professionals when assessing the that the Minister believes it. The question of establishing need for treatment for people such as Kerry Dunn. an SBRT tariff, as recommended in the report from NRIG last April, is not just a question of the administration 7.18 pm involved in setting up some codes so that the NHS can Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab): I pay tribute cost it; this lack of tariff has a direct impact on cancer to and congratulate the hon. Member for Wells (Tessa patients’ lives. Munt) on securing this important debate. I want to put Let me tell the Minister about my friend Kerry Dunn, on the record the appreciation of myself and the whole a 42-year-old mother from Somerset who was diagnosed House for the work that she has done in this important with cancer. Last September, her clinicians in Bristol area. concluded that the only treatment available that could Last August, the Department of Health released the save her life was SBRT on CyberKnife. The CyberKnife first ever England-wide analysis of patient access to experts in London agreed. Her clinicians applied for radiotherapy treatment. For those of us who represent funding from North Somerset primary care trust, but it constituencies outside London and the south-east, the took them two months before it refused. It said no results were shocking. The disparity in treatment levels because, according to it, there was not enough evidence for cancer patients living in and around London, compared to suggest that CyberKnife would work. with the rest of the country, is nothing short of disgraceful. It is important that the Minister fully understands Access to advanced radiotherapy should not be a postcode the train of events in this case. Kerry Dunn’s clinician in lottery. The data on each of England’s 28 cancer networks Bristol, one of the leading oncologists in the country, show that the further someone moves away from London, believed that CyberKnife could treat her, and the clinicians the smaller their chance is of receiving radiotherapy. in London, who routinely use CyberKnife to treat cancer, North-west London tops the list, with radiotherapy said that they could treat her, but the bean-counters on provision at 94%, whereas the north-east—my region— North Somerset PCT thought otherwise. Kerry Dunn came last, at 27%. In fact, the bottom five networks told me what had happened at the beginning of December. were all north of the River Trent. She and her family were in absolute despair over this decision. Once I had contacted North Somerset PCT Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): The benefits of and after the local press had, separately, taken an interest SBRT are well proven in many cases and clear in in her case, the PCT allowed Kerry Dunn to appeal its numerous cases. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it decision. Three weeks after the first decision, the PCT should be available more extensively across the whole of changed its mind and agreed her funding for CyberKnife. the NHS, and that it is time for the Minister to work 417 Stereotactic Body Radiotherapy8 FEBRUARY 2012 Stereotactic Body Radiotherapy 418 alongside the devolved Administrations to ensure that What an indictment of the NHS under this coalition the treatment is available for patients in Northern Ireland, government! The NHS should not have to go begging as well as other parts of the United Kingdom? for charitable funds to buy the latest life-saving equipment, especially when we know that the Department of Health Grahame M. Morris: Absolutely. I thank the hon. is currently holding back £300 million in capital allocations, Gentleman for that intervention, and I agree completely. in Whitehall coffers. This resource is for capital equipment, All 28 cancer networks should have equal access to this but is not given to the hospitals in regions like the advanced radiotherapy. north-east where it is most needed. If the Minister is In practical terms, cancer patients in the Minister’s serious about reducing health inequalities in the north-east, London constituency are three times more likely to and, indeed, in the south-west, we should have this receive the radiotherapy treatment that they need than equipment and not be left to linger at the bottom of the those residing in northern England and twice as likely radiotherapy dataset, which the Minister himself said is as those living in the south-west of England. Believe it the benchmark for future provision. I ask the Minister or not, however, when the general radiotherapy dataset to make a commitment to investing some of this is analysed further—by that I mean looking at radiotherapy £300 million in the capital equipment needed to reduce centres offering conventional radiotherapy and those these disparities in the provision of radiotherapy in offering the more effective SBRT—the picture is far general and SBRT in particular. worse. The conventional method of radiotherapy delivery is 7.25 pm unable to distinguish between healthy and unhealthy tissue, so the treatment is delivered in short doses—often The Minister of State, Department of Health (Paul every day for four or five weeks—to avoid too much Burstow): We have had a good debate so far, and I damage to the healthy tissue. As the hon. Member for congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Wells Wells said, SBRT uses small, multiple and highly focused (Tessa Munt) on securing it and on providing an beams of energy to deliver radiation directly to the opportunity for us to draw attention to radiotherapy tumour, ensuring that a minimal dose is received by the services in the NHS. I want to try to answer as many surrounding healthy tissue. Consequently, there are little questions as I can. I understand that my hon. Friend or no treatment-related side effects. SBRT allows the will meet Department officials to discuss some of her patient to be treated over five days, as opposed to five concerns further. I hope that if any issues are not weeks, as with conventional radiotherapy. Because of covered, they can be explored further there. its accuracy, SBRT can be used to treat tumours that Radiotherapy is an extremely important form of might be surgically inaccessible or in close proximity to treatment for cancer, which often does not get the critical organs of the body, such as the heart. attention it deserves. This debate has, I think, helped in When we look at the postcode lottery that the dataset that regard. It is more targeted than chemotherapy and report presents, we should also ask where SBRT is less invasive than surgery, with new, faster and more available and where it is not. The Minister must understand precise technologies reducing side-effects and improving how important the comparison is. For cancer patients outcomes for patients. Radiotherapy is a significant in my constituency, the difference between having access component in the treatment of 40% of patients cured of to SBRT and having access to conventional radiotherapy— cancer and for 16% of cures overall. It is also extremely for prostate cancer, for example—is a 50-mile car journey cost-effective in comparison to other curative cancer every day for five weeks and the treatment lasting just treatments. Spending is at around £325 million a year—just five days, with a rapid return to normal life. As well as 5% of the total spend on cancer. the benefits to the individual, the cost savings to the For these reasons, I very much welcome the opportunity NHS of using SBRT compared with conventional presented by this debate to correct a number of inaccuracies radiotherapy are obvious for all to see. that have appeared in the press on this subject. Claims Like the hon. Lady, I, too, was approached, just have been made that patients are being denied life-saving before Christmas, by a constituent whose cancer needed treatments because of the lack of access to CyberKnife. SBRT. His tumour could be treated only using the Those claims are both inaccurate and alarming, and I accuracy of the robotic CyberKnife system, but there think they must cause great anxiety to patients. The are only three CyberKnife systems in the NHS, and truth is that CyberKnife is not a form of treatment, but they are all in London. However, thanks to the incredible a brand name of a particular type of equipment that co-operation of my constituents’ clinicians and the delivers stereotactic body radiotherapy or SBRT. It is clinicians from St Bartholomew’s hospital in London, not the only technology available, as I shall explain as well as the understanding of County Durham PCT—the further in a moment. commissioners, who, in a timely fashion, agreed funding —he starts his treatment here in London in two weeks. My hon. Friend talked about the figures, and I repeat My constituent is very happy that he is set to receive the the fact that one in four radiotherapy centres currently treatment in an NHS hospital, but is it not a scandal has equipment—not CyberKnife in every case—that is that he has to travel more than 260 miles to do so? What capable of providing SBRT. I understand, and this is equally scandalous is that the reason why there are bears out my hon. Friend’s figures— only three CyberKnife systems in NHS hospitals is that those hospitals needed to raise the money to purchase Grahame M. Morris: Will the Minister give way? them from charitable donations. I have since learned that in Birmingham, as well as in Newcastle, in my region, the Bear appeal is seeking to raise the money for Paul Burstow: No. Many points have been put to me, a CyberKnife system from charitable sources. and to be fair, I now need to respond to them. 419 Stereotactic Body Radiotherapy8 FEBRUARY 2012 Stereotactic Body Radiotherapy 420

[Paul Burstow] but many are far below it. All centres have equipment that is capable of delivering that technique and a national Currently, eight centres are active in providing these training programme has been rolled out. We now need services, but I recognise and appreciate the work my to ensure that IMRT, as well as image guided radiotherapy, hon. Friend has done, and we will certainly need to is offered to all patients who might benefit. review carefully the information she has presented tonight. As we have heard, radiotherapy treatment involves CyberKnife can deliver only SBRT and cannot deliver the delivery of a dose of radiation to a cancer tumour. conventional radiotherapy. Large, expensive radiotherapy That dose is delivered to each patient in fractions or delivery systems such as these are purchased by public treatments and the number of fractions delivered varies tender. After vigorous and rigorous evaluation of the with the type of cancer. The ultimate goal in radiotherapy many different systems available to deliver this treatment, is to deliver the treatment to the tumour with pinpoint many hospitals around the country have chosen systems accuracy, thus sparing surrounding tissue and requiring provided by other manufacturers, as they enable them as few fractions, or treatments, as possible—in other to provide flexible, accurate and cost-effective radiotherapy words, to treat and cure more cancers with shorter and radio-surgery services. The promotion of CyberKnife courses of radiotherapy and fewer side effects. For that over other alternatives does a disservice to other reason, radiotherapy is continuously evolving with manufacturers that are successful in providing equipment innovations and the development of new techniques to trusts, and distorts the nature of the debate. and technologies that move us increasingly closer to Let me be clear: timely access to high-quality radiotherapy that goal, but those new developments need to be for cancer patients in this country should improve cancer evaluated in clinical studies. outcomes and survival. That is why we have made a It is a challenge for providers and commissioners to commitment to expand radiotherapy capacity by investing keep up with the evolving nature of radiotherapy treatment about £150 million more over the next four years. That and to ensure the evaluation and adoption of new will increase the utilisation of existing equipment, support techniques. The royal colleges and other professional additional services and ensure that all high-priority bodies provide guidance to their members to assist the patients with a need for proton-beam therapy get access continuous update of clinical practice. Commissioners to it abroad. in turn need to ensure that they are aware of sources of Significant progress has been made in improving updated guidance. The radiotherapy community in radiotherapy services since the publication of the National this country can be rightly proud of its ability to Radiotherapy Advisory Group report in 2007. The deliver clinical studies and explore the use of delivering collection of the radiotherapy dataset, which the hon. radiotherapy in fewer fractions. Indeed, the role of the Member for Easington (Grahame M. Morris) talked Royal College of Radiologists and the National about, has enabled us to establish more accurately than Radiotherapy Implementation Group in producing such ever before the measure of the number of patients being guidance is absolutely crucial. treated with radiotherapy, and to identify and address Let me come back to stereotactic body radiotherapy, unacceptable and inexplicable variations around the which is an important example of specialist radiotherapy country. Almost all patients referred for radiotherapy technique. It allows radiotherapy to be given to smaller treatment receive that treatment within the waiting time target areas in higher doses with fewer treatments. Its standards. This improvement in waiting times, compared greatest potential is in its possible use as an alternative with historical waiting times, saves lives each year. New to surgery and, because of its precision, to treat and modelling tools have been developed that allow local potentially cure cancers that would otherwise be untreatable. services to model the needs of their populations and to However, as has been mentioned, it is regarded as a predict demand and ensure that they have capacity to novel technique and it provides a very high dose of treat all patients who will benefit from the treatment radiation per treatment. With conventional radiotherapy, without unnecessary delay as demand changes over the a patient might receive their dose over 20 to 25 visits, years. but with SBRT that dose is delivered in five or six. More However, there can be absolutely no room for treatments need to be delivered within clinical studies so complacency, and we realise that more work needs to be that clinicians can carefully follow up in both the short done to identify why the variations that the hon. Member and long term to confirm the efficacy of the treatment for Easington has talked about in terms of referral rates and study any side effects. Side effects have been mentioned in some parts of the country have existed. The dataset in the context of drugs, but we need to be conscious that shows that some variations in access rates between there can also be side effects from radiotherapy and not cancer networks persist, and there is currently lower be so anxious to expose people to risks if we are not uptake in certain parts of the north that cannot be confident. We should apply the standards of clinical explained by variations in cancer incidence. That new trials to this area. It would be wrong for this Government dataset allows local commissioners to examine their to promote any form of treatment before the evidence referral practices in detail, and I understand that networks has been collected. Evidence is about more than just in the north-east are looking at capacity and travel making speeches in the House—it is also about looking times to start to address the concerns that the hon. at the clinical evidence. Gentleman has brought to the House tonight. All new techniques, including advanced radiotherapy, Access to advanced radiotherapy techniques needs to need to be justified on the grounds of cost and clinical be improved, particularly intensity modulated radiotherapy. effectiveness. Last year, the National Radiotherapy Experts estimate that around a third of all treatments Implementation Group, published guidance, which has given with the intention of cure should be delivered by been mentioned, on the use of SBRT, including a clinical IMRT. Some centres are already delivering at that rate, evidence review, and concluded that there is a substantial 421 Stereotactic Body Radiotherapy8 FEBRUARY 2012 Stereotactic Body Radiotherapy 422 evidence base for the clinical effectiveness of SBRT in the work that is being undertaken to make progress early stage lung cancer for patients who are unsuitable with the implementation of tariffs. for surgery. It is possible that there will be a significant increase in There are about 1,000 patients in the country who demand for this treatment in the coming decades, but would benefit from that sort of procedure. There are many tumours will continue to be treated better with ongoing clinical trials examining the use of the technique conventional radiotherapy, and in particular with intensity- for other cancers, but they have yet to confirm its modulated and image-guided radiotherapy techniques. benefits for those cancers. For that reason, the national radiotherapy implementation group recommended that Tessa Munt: May I clarify one point? I understand any patient receiving SBRT should receive it in a clinical that the group recommended the setting of a tariff, but study to enable the evidence to grow, and at specialised that the Department of Health will not set it until 2014. centres treating high volumes of patients with the necessary There is an acceptance of the technology, but there is quality assurance safeguards in place. The implementation also a delay of two years, and in that time people might of the recommendations cannot be rushed, and the die. welfare of patients should be paramount in the introduction and use of novel techniques. Staff must therefore be Paul Burstow: There are already local arrangements thoroughly trained in this technique. for the contracting of these services. Specialist centres can use the opportunity to include people in clinical My hon. Friend asked me to consider a number of trials, so that we can demonstrate that this is a worthwhile issues. I will certainly undertake to examine the tariff treatment for many cancers. At present, the evidence programme to establish what more can be done to suggests that it is beneficial only in the case of inoperable expedite it, but I should point out that it is no small task lung cancers. I hope that, as we progress, we shall be to introduce new tariffs in the NHS. In 2012-13 we are able to demonstrate that this is not the only technology, mandating the use of the necessary resource groups and and that CyberKnife is a brand, not— currencies in regard to contracting for external beam radiotherapy, and that is an essential first step. I hope 7.37 pm that when my hon. Friend has a chance to sit down with House adjourned without Question put (Standing Order officials, they will be able to talk in more detail about No. 9(7)). 423 8 FEBRUARY 2012 Deferred Divisions 424

Deferred Divisions Halfon, Robert McCartney, Jason Hames, Duncan McCartney, Karl Hammond, rh Mr Philip McIntosh, Miss Anne LOCAL GOVERNMENT Hammond, Stephen McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick That the draft City of Manchester (Mayoral Referendum) Hancock, Matthew McPartland, Stephen Order 2012, which was laid before this House on 5 December, be Hancock, Mr Mike McVey, Esther approved. Hands, Greg Mensch, Louise The House divided: Ayes 315, Noes 201. Harper, Mr Mark Menzies, Mark Division No. 462] Harrington, Richard Metcalfe, Stephen Harris, Rebecca Miller, Maria AYES Hart, Simon Mills, Nigel Adams, Nigel Colvile, Oliver Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Milton, Anne Afriyie, Adam Cox, Mr Geoffrey Heald, Oliver Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Aldous, Peter Crabb, Stephen Heath, Mr David Moore, rh Michael Alexander, rh Danny Crockart, Mike Heaton-Harris, Chris Mordaunt, Penny Amess, Mr David Crouch, Tracey Hemming, John Morgan, Nicky Andrew, Stuart Davey, Mr Edward Henderson, Gordon Morris, Anne Marie Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Davies, David T. C. Hendry, Charles Morris, David Baker, Norman (Monmouth) Herbert, rh Nick Morris, James Baker, Steve Davies, Glyn Hermon, Lady Mosley, Stephen Baldry, Tony Davies, Philip Hinds, Damian Mowat, David Baldwin, Harriett de Bois, Nick Hoban, Mr Mark Mulholland, Greg Barclay, Stephen Dinenage, Caroline Hollingbery, George Mundell, rh David Barwell, Gavin Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hollobone, Mr Philip Murray, Sheryll Bebb, Guto Dorries, Nadine Hopkins, Kris Murrison, Dr Andrew Beith, rh Sir Alan Doyle-Price, Jackie Horwood, Martin Neill, Robert Benyon, Richard Drax, Richard Howell, John Newmark, Mr Brooks Beresford, Sir Paul Duddridge, James Hughes, rh Simon Newton, Sarah Berry, Jake Duncan, rh Mr Alan Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Nokes, Caroline Bingham, Andrew Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Hunter, Mark Nuttall, Mr David Binley, Mr Brian Dunne, Mr Philip Huppert, Dr Julian Offord, Mr Matthew Birtwistle, Gordon Ellis, Michael Hurd, Mr Nick Ollerenshaw, Eric Blackman, Bob Ellison, Jane Jackson, Mr Stewart Osborne, rh Mr George Blackwood, Nicola Ellwood, Mr Tobias James, Margot Ottaway, Richard Blunt, Mr Crispin Elphicke, Charlie Javid, Sajid Paice, rh Mr James Boles, Nick Eustice, George Jenkin, Mr Bernard Parish, Neil Bone, Mr Peter Evans, Graham Johnson, Gareth Patel, Priti Bottomley, Sir Peter Evans, Jonathan Johnson, Joseph Paterson, rh Mr Owen Bradley, Karen Evennett, Mr David Jones, Andrew Pawsey, Mark Brady, Mr Graham Fabricant, Michael Jones, Mr David Penrose, John Brake, rh Tom Farron, Tim Jones, Mr Marcus Percy, Andrew Bray, Angie Featherstone, Lynne Kelly, Chris Perry, Claire Brazier, Mr Julian Field, Mark Kirby, Simon Phillips, Stephen Bridgen, Andrew Flynn, Paul Knight, rh Mr Greg Pincher, Christopher Brine, Steve Foster, rh Mr Don Kwarteng, Kwasi Poulter, Dr Daniel Brokenshire, James Fox,rhDrLiam Laing, Mrs Eleanor Prisk, Mr Mark Brooke, Annette Francois, rh Mr Mark Lamb, Norman Pritchard, Mark Browne, Mr Jeremy Freeman, George Lancaster, Mark Pugh, John Bruce, Fiona Freer, Mike Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Raab, Mr Dominic Buckland, Mr Robert Fullbrook, Lorraine Laws, rh Mr David Randall, rh Mr John Burns, Conor Fuller, Richard Lee, Jessica Reckless, Mark Burns, rh Mr Simon Gale, Sir Roger Leech, Mr John Redwood, rh Mr John Burrowes, Mr David Garnier, Mr Edward Lefroy, Jeremy Rees-Mogg, Jacob Burstow, Paul Garnier, Mark Leigh, Mr Edward Reid, Mr Alan Burt, Alistair Gauke, Mr David Leslie, Charlotte Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Burt, Lorely George, Andrew Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Robertson, Mr Laurence Byles, Dan Gibb, Mr Nick Lewis, Brandon Rosindell, Andrew Cable, rh Vince Gilbert, Stephen Lewis, Dr Julian Rudd, Amber Cameron, rh Mr David Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Ruffley, Mr David Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Glen, John Lilley, rh Mr Peter Russell, Sir Bob Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Goldsmith, Zac Lloyd, Stephen Rutley, David Carmichael, Neil Goodwill, Mr Robert Long, Naomi Sandys, Laura Carswell, Mr Douglas Graham, Richard Lopresti, Jack Scott, Mr Lee Cash, Mr William Grant, Mrs Helen Lord, Jonathan Selous, Andrew Chishti, Rehman Gray, Mr James Loughton, Tim Shapps, rh Grant Clappison, Mr James Grayling, rh Chris Luff, Peter Sharma, Alok Clark, rh Greg Green, Damian Lumley, Karen Shelbrooke, Alec Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Greening, rh Justine Macleod, Mary Shepherd, Mr Richard Clegg, rh Mr Nick Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Main, Mrs Anne Simpson, Mr Keith Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Griffiths, Andrew Maude, rh Mr Francis Skidmore, Chris Coffey, Dr Thérèse Gummer, Ben May, rh Mrs Theresa Smith, Miss Chloe Collins, Damian Hague, rh Mr William Maynard, Paul Smith, Henry 425 Deferred Divisions8 FEBRUARY 2012 Deferred Divisions 426

Smith, Julian Vara, Mr Shailesh Hain, rh Mr Peter Morris, Grahame M. Spencer, Mr Mark Vickers, Martin Hamilton, Mr David (Easington) Stanley, rh Sir John Walker, Mr Charles Hamilton, Fabian Mudie, Mr George Stephenson, Andrew Walker, Mr Robin Hanson, rh Mr David Munn, Meg Stevenson, John Walter, Mr Robert Harman, rh Ms Harriet Murphy, rh Mr Jim Stewart, Bob Watkinson, Angela Harris, Mr Tom Murphy, rh Paul Stewart, Iain Weatherley, Mike Havard, Mr Dai Murray, Ian Stewart, Rory Webb, Steve Healey, rh John Onwurah, Chi Stride, Mel Wharton, James Hepburn, Mr Stephen Osborne, Sandra Stuart, Ms Gisela Wheeler, Heather Heyes, David Owen, Albert Stuart, Mr Graham White, Chris Hillier, Meg Pearce, Teresa Stunell, Andrew Whittingdale, Mr John Hilling, Julie Perkins, Toby Swales, Ian Wiggin, Bill Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Reynolds, Jonathan Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Williams, Mr Mark Howarth, rh Mr George Riordan, Mrs Linda Swinson, Jo Williams, Roger Irranca-Davies, Huw Robertson, John Swire, rh Mr Hugo Williams, Stephen James, Mrs Siân C. Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Syms, Mr Robert Williamson, Gavin Jamieson, Cathy Rotheram, Steve Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Willott, Jenny Jarvis, Dan Roy, Lindsay Teather, Sarah Wilson, Mr Rob Johnson, rh Alan Ruane, Chris Timpson, Mr Edward Wollaston, Dr Sarah Johnson, Diana Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Tomlinson, Justin Wright, Jeremy Jones, Graham Sanders, Mr Adrian Tredinnick, David Wright, Simon Jones, Helen Sarwar, Anas Truss, Elizabeth Yeo, Mr Tim Jones, Mr Kevan Seabeck, Alison Turner, Mr Andrew Young, rh Sir George Jones, Susan Elan Sheridan, Jim Uppal, Paul Zahawi, Nadhim Jowell, rh Tessa Shuker, Gavin Joyce, Eric Simpson, David NOES Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Skinner, Mr Dennis Keeley, Barbara Slaughter, Mr Andy Abbott, Ms Diane Cruddas, Jon Khan, rh Sadiq Smith, rh Mr Andrew Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Cryer, John Lammy, rh Mr David Smith, Angela Ali, Rushanara Cunningham, Mr Jim Lavery, Ian Smith, Nick Allen, Mr Graham Cunningham, Tony Lazarowicz, Mark Smith, Owen Anderson, Mr David Curran, Margaret Leslie, Chris Spellar, rh Mr John Ashworth, Jonathan Dakin, Nic Lloyd, Tony Straw, rh Mr Jack Bailey, Mr Adrian Danczuk, Simon Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Bain, Mr William David, Mr Wayne Lucas, Caroline Tami, Mark Balls, rh Ed Davies, Geraint MacShane, rh Mr Denis Thornberry, Emily Barron, rh Mr Kevin De Piero, Gloria Mactaggart, Fiona Timms, rh Stephen Bayley, Hugh Denham, rh Mr John Mahmood, Mr Khalid Trickett, Jon Beckett, rh Margaret Dobbin, Jim Malhotra, Seema Turner, Karl Begg, Dame Anne Dobson, rh Frank Marsden, Mr Gordon Twigg, Derek Bell, Sir Stuart Dodds, rh Mr Nigel McCabe, Steve Twigg, Stephen Benn, rh Hilary Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. McCann, Mr Michael Vaz, rh Keith Benton, Mr Joe Donohoe, Mr Brian H. McCarthy, Kerry Vaz, Valerie Berger, Luciana Doran, Mr Frank McClymont, Gregg Walley, Joan Betts, Mr Clive Dowd, Jim McCrea, Dr William Watts, Mr Dave Blackman-Woods, Roberta Dromey, Jack McDonagh, Siobhain Whitehead, Dr Alan Blenkinsop, Tom Dugher, Michael McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Wicks, rh Malcolm Blunkett, rh Mr David Eagle, Maria McDonnell, John Williams, Hywel Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Edwards, Jonathan McGovern, Jim Williamson, Chris Brennan, Kevin Efford, Clive McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Wilson, Phil Brown, Lyn Elliott, Julie McKechin, Ann Wilson, Sammy Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Ellman, Mrs Louise Michael, rh Alun Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Brown, Mr Russell Engel, Natascha Miliband, rh Edward Woodcock, John Bryant, Chris Esterson, Bill Miller, Andrew Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Burden, Richard Evans, Chris Morden, Jessica Wright, David Campbell, Mr Alan Farrelly, Paul Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Wright, Mr Iain Campbell, Mr Gregory Fitzpatrick, Jim Campbell, Mr Ronnie Flello, Robert Question accordingly agreed to. Caton, Martin Flint, rh Caroline Chapman, Mrs Jenny Fovargue, Yvonne That the draft City of Newcastle-upon-Tyne (Mayoral Referendum) Clark, Katy Francis, Dr Hywel Order 2012, which was laid before this House on 5 December, be Clarke, rh Mr Tom Gapes, Mike approved. Clwyd, rh Ann Gilmore, Sheila The House divided: Ayes 317, Noes 201. Coaker, Vernon Glindon, Mrs Mary Division No. 463] Coffey, Ann Goggins, rh Paul Connarty, Michael Goodman, Helen AYES Cooper, Rosie Greatrex, Tom Adams, Nigel Andrew, Stuart Cooper, rh Yvette Green, Kate Afriyie, Adam Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Corbyn, Jeremy Greenwood, Lilian Aldous, Peter Baker, Norman Crausby, Mr David Griffith, Nia Alexander, rh Danny Baker, Steve Creasy, Stella Gwynne, Andrew Amess, Mr David Baldry, Tony 427 Deferred Divisions8 FEBRUARY 2012 Deferred Divisions 428

Baldwin, Harriett Ellison, Jane Jackson, Mr Stewart Osborne, rh Mr George Barclay, Stephen Ellwood, Mr Tobias James, Margot Ottaway, Richard Barwell, Gavin Elphicke, Charlie Javid, Sajid Paice, rh Mr James Bebb, Guto Eustice, George Jenkin, Mr Bernard Parish, Neil Beith, rh Sir Alan Evans, Graham Johnson, Gareth Patel, Priti Benyon, Richard Evans, Jonathan Johnson, Joseph Paterson, rh Mr Owen Beresford, Sir Paul Evennett, Mr David Jones, Andrew Pawsey, Mark Berry, Jake Fabricant, Michael Jones, Mr David Penrose, John Bingham, Andrew Farron, Tim Jones, Mr Marcus Percy, Andrew Binley, Mr Brian Featherstone, Lynne Kelly, Chris Perry, Claire Birtwistle, Gordon Field, Mark Kirby, Simon Phillips, Stephen Blackman, Bob Flynn, Paul Knight, rh Mr Greg Pincher, Christopher Blackwood, Nicola Foster, rh Mr Don Kwarteng, Kwasi Poulter, Dr Daniel Blunt, Mr Crispin Fox,rhDrLiam Laing, Mrs Eleanor Prisk, Mr Mark Boles, Nick Francois, rh Mr Mark Lamb, Norman Pritchard, Mark Bone, Mr Peter Freeman, George Lancaster, Mark Pugh, John Bottomley, Sir Peter Freer, Mike Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Raab, Mr Dominic Bradley, Karen Fullbrook, Lorraine Laws, rh Mr David Randall, rh Mr John Brady, Mr Graham Fuller, Richard Lee, Jessica Reckless, Mark Brake, rh Tom Gale, Sir Roger Leech, Mr John Redwood, rh Mr John Bray, Angie Garnier, Mr Edward Lefroy, Jeremy Rees-Mogg, Jacob Brazier, Mr Julian Garnier, Mark Leigh, Mr Edward Reid, Mr Alan Bridgen, Andrew Gauke, Mr David Leslie, Charlotte Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Brine, Steve George, Andrew Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Robertson, Mr Laurence Brokenshire, James Gibb, Mr Nick Lewis, Brandon Rosindell, Andrew Brooke, Annette Gilbert, Stephen Lewis, Dr Julian Rudd, Amber Browne, Mr Jeremy Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Ruffley, Mr David Bruce, Fiona Glen, John Lilley, rh Mr Peter Russell, Sir Bob Buckland, Mr Robert Goldsmith, Zac Lloyd, Stephen Rutley, David Burns, Conor Goodwill, Mr Robert Long, Naomi Sandys, Laura Burns, rh Mr Simon Graham, Richard Lopresti, Jack Scott, Mr Lee Burrowes, Mr David Grant, Mrs Helen Lord, Jonathan Selous, Andrew Burstow, Paul Gray, Mr James Loughton, Tim Shapps, rh Grant Burt, Alistair Grayling, rh Chris Luff, Peter Sharma, Alok Burt, Lorely Green, Damian Lumley, Karen Shelbrooke, Alec Byles, Dan Greening, rh Justine Macleod, Mary Shepherd, Mr Richard Cable, rh Vince Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Main, Mrs Anne Simpson, Mr Keith Cameron, rh Mr David Griffiths, Andrew Maude, rh Mr Francis Skidmore, Chris Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Gummer, Ben May, rh Mrs Theresa Smith, Miss Chloe Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Hague, rh Mr William Maynard, Paul Smith, Henry Carmichael, Neil Halfon, Robert McCartney, Jason Smith, Julian Carswell, Mr Douglas Hames, Duncan McCartney, Karl Soubry, Anna Cash, Mr William Hammond, rh Mr Philip McIntosh, Miss Anne Spencer, Mr Mark Chishti, Rehman Hammond, Stephen McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Stanley, rh Sir John Clappison, Mr James Hancock, Matthew McPartland, Stephen Stephenson, Andrew Clark, rh Greg Hancock, Mr Mike McVey, Esther Stevenson, John Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Hands, Greg Mensch, Louise Stewart, Bob Clegg, rh Mr Nick Harper, Mr Mark Menzies, Mark Stewart, Iain Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Harrington, Richard Metcalfe, Stephen Stewart, Rory Coffey, Dr Thérèse Harris, Rebecca Miller, Maria Stride, Mel Collins, Damian Hart, Simon Mills, Nigel Stuart, Ms Gisela Colvile, Oliver Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Milton, Anne Stunell, Andrew Cox, Mr Geoffrey Heald, Oliver Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Sturdy, Julian Crabb, Stephen Heath, Mr David Moore, rh Michael Swales, Ian Crockart, Mike Heaton-Harris, Chris Mordaunt, Penny Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Crouch, Tracey Hemming, John Morgan, Nicky Swinson, Jo Davey, Mr Edward Henderson, Gordon Morris, Anne Marie Swire, rh Mr Hugo Davies, David T. C. Hendry, Charles Morris, David Syms, Mr Robert (Monmouth) Herbert, rh Nick Morris, James Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Davies, Glyn Hermon, Lady Mosley, Stephen Teather, Sarah Davies, Philip Hinds, Damian Mowat, David Timpson, Mr Edward de Bois, Nick Hoban, Mr Mark Mulholland, Greg Tomlinson, Justin Dinenage, Caroline Hollingbery, George Mundell, rh David Tredinnick, David Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hollobone, Mr Philip Murray, Sheryll Truss, Elizabeth Dorries, Nadine Hopkins, Kris Murrison, Dr Andrew Turner, Mr Andrew Doyle-Price, Jackie Horwood, Martin Neill, Robert Uppal, Paul Drax, Richard Howell, John Newmark, Mr Brooks Vara, Mr Shailesh Duddridge, James Hughes, rh Simon Newton, Sarah Vickers, Martin Duncan, rh Mr Alan Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Nokes, Caroline Walker, Mr Charles Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Hunter, Mark Nuttall, Mr David Walker, Mr Robin Dunne, Mr Philip Huppert, Dr Julian Offord, Mr Matthew Walter, Mr Robert Ellis, Michael Hurd, Mr Nick Ollerenshaw, Eric Watkinson, Angela 429 Deferred Divisions8 FEBRUARY 2012 Deferred Divisions 430

Weatherley, Mike Williams, Stephen Lavery, Ian Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Webb, Steve Williamson, Gavin Lazarowicz, Mark Rotheram, Steve Wharton, James Willott, Jenny Leslie, Chris Roy, Lindsay Wheeler, Heather Wilson, Mr Rob Lloyd, Tony Ruane, Chris White, Chris Wollaston, Dr Sarah Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Wright, Jeremy Lucas, Caroline Sanders, Mr Adrian Whittingdale, Mr John Wright, Simon MacShane, rh Mr Denis Sarwar, Anas Wiggin, Bill Yeo, Mr Tim Mactaggart, Fiona Seabeck, Alison Williams, Mr Mark Young, rh Sir George Mahmood, Mr Khalid Sheridan, Jim Williams, Roger Zahawi, Nadhim Malhotra, Seema Shuker, Gavin Marsden, Mr Gordon Simpson, David NOES McCabe, Steve Skinner, Mr Dennis McCann, Mr Michael Slaughter, Mr Andy Abbott, Ms Diane Donohoe, Mr Brian H. McCarthy, Kerry Smith, rh Mr Andrew Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Doran, Mr Frank McClymont, Gregg Smith, Angela Ali, Rushanara Dowd, Jim McCrea, Dr William Smith, Nick Allen, Mr Graham Dromey, Jack McDonagh, Siobhain Smith, Owen Anderson, Mr David Dugher, Michael McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Spellar, rh Mr John Ashworth, Jonathan Eagle, Maria McDonnell, John Straw, rh Mr Jack Bailey, Mr Adrian Edwards, Jonathan McGovern, Jim Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Bain, Mr William Efford, Clive McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Tami, Mark Balls, rh Ed Elliott, Julie McKechin, Ann Thornberry, Emily Barron, rh Mr Kevin Ellman, Mrs Louise Michael, rh Alun Timms, rh Stephen Bayley, Hugh Engel, Natascha Miliband, rh Edward Trickett, Jon Beckett, rh Margaret Esterson, Bill Miller, Andrew Turner, Karl Begg, Dame Anne Evans, Chris Morden, Jessica Twigg, Derek Bell, Sir Stuart Farrelly, Paul Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Twigg, Stephen Benn, rh Hilary Fitzpatrick, Jim Morris, Grahame M. Vaz, rh Keith Benton, Mr Joe Flello, Robert (Easington) Vaz, Valerie Berger, Luciana Flint, rh Caroline Mudie, Mr George Walley, Joan Betts, Mr Clive Fovargue, Yvonne Munn, Meg Watts, Mr Dave Blackman-Woods, Roberta Francis, Dr Hywel Murphy, rh Mr Jim Whitehead, Dr Alan Blenkinsop, Tom Gapes, Mike Murphy, rh Paul Wicks, rh Malcolm Blunkett, rh Mr David Gilmore, Sheila Murray, Ian Williams, Hywel Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Glindon, Mrs Mary Onwurah, Chi Williamson, Chris Brennan, Kevin Goggins, rh Paul Osborne, Sandra Wilson, Phil Brown, Lyn Goodman, Helen Owen, Albert Wilson, Sammy Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Greatrex, Tom Pearce, Teresa Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Brown, Mr Russell Green, Kate Perkins, Toby Woodcock, John Bryant, Chris Greenwood, Lilian Reynolds, Jonathan Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Burden, Richard Griffith, Nia Riordan, Mrs Linda Wright, David Campbell, Mr Alan Gwynne, Andrew Robertson, John Wright, Mr Iain Campbell, Mr Gregory Hain, rh Mr Peter Campbell, Mr Ronnie Hamilton, Mr David Caton, Martin Hamilton, Fabian Question accordingly agreed to. Chapman, Mrs Jenny Hanson, rh Mr David That the draft City of Sheffield (Mayoral Referendum) Order Clark, Katy Harman, rh Ms Harriet 2012, which was laid before this House on 5 December, be Clarke, rh Mr Tom Harris, Mr Tom approved. Clwyd, rh Ann Havard, Mr Dai The House divided: Ayes 316, Noes 201. Coaker, Vernon Healey, rh John Coffey, Ann Hepburn, Mr Stephen Division No. 464] Connarty, Michael Heyes, David AYES Cooper, Rosie Hillier, Meg Cooper, rh Yvette Hilling, Julie Adams, Nigel Birtwistle, Gordon Corbyn, Jeremy Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Afriyie, Adam Blackman, Bob Crausby, Mr David Howarth, rh Mr George Aldous, Peter Blackwood, Nicola Alexander, rh Danny Blunt, Mr Crispin Creasy, Stella Irranca-Davies, Huw Amess, Mr David Boles, Nick Cruddas, Jon James, Mrs Siân C. Andrew, Stuart Bone, Mr Peter Cryer, John Jamieson, Cathy Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Bottomley, Sir Peter Cunningham, Mr Jim Jarvis, Dan Baker, Norman Bradley, Karen Cunningham, Tony Johnson, rh Alan Baker, Steve Brady, Mr Graham Curran, Margaret Johnson, Diana Baldry, Tony Brake, rh Tom Dakin, Nic Jones, Graham Baldwin, Harriett Bray, Angie Danczuk, Simon Jones, Helen Barclay, Stephen Brazier, Mr Julian David, Mr Wayne Jones, Mr Kevan Barwell, Gavin Bridgen, Andrew Davies, Geraint Jones, Susan Elan Bebb, Guto Brine, Steve De Piero, Gloria Jowell, rh Tessa Beith, rh Sir Alan Brokenshire, James Denham, rh Mr John Joyce, Eric Benyon, Richard Brooke, Annette Dobbin, Jim Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Beresford, Sir Paul Browne, Mr Jeremy Dobson, rh Frank Keeley, Barbara Berry, Jake Bruce, Fiona Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Khan, rh Sadiq Bingham, Andrew Buckland, Mr Robert Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Lammy, rh Mr David Binley, Mr Brian Burns, Conor 431 Deferred Divisions8 FEBRUARY 2012 Deferred Divisions 432

Burns, rh Mr Simon Graham, Richard Lord, Jonathan Ruffley, Mr David Burrowes, Mr David Grant, Mrs Helen Loughton, Tim Russell, Sir Bob Burstow, Paul Gray, Mr James Luff, Peter Rutley, David Burt, Alistair Grayling, rh Chris Lumley, Karen Sandys, Laura Burt, Lorely Green, Damian Macleod, Mary Scott, Mr Lee Byles, Dan Greening, rh Justine Main, Mrs Anne Selous, Andrew Cable, rh Vince Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Maude, rh Mr Francis Shapps, rh Grant Cameron, rh Mr David Griffiths, Andrew May, rh Mrs Theresa Sharma, Alok Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Gummer, Ben Maynard, Paul Shelbrooke, Alec Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Hague, rh Mr William McCartney, Jason Shepherd, Mr Richard Carmichael, Neil Halfon, Robert McCartney, Karl Simpson, Mr Keith Carswell, Mr Douglas Hames, Duncan McIntosh, Miss Anne Skidmore, Chris Cash, Mr William Hammond, rh Mr Philip McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Smith, Miss Chloe Chishti, Rehman Hammond, Stephen McPartland, Stephen Smith, Henry Clappison, Mr James Hancock, Matthew McVey, Esther Smith, Julian Clark, rh Greg Hancock, Mr Mike Mensch, Louise Soubry, Anna Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Hands, Greg Menzies, Mark Spencer, Mr Mark Clegg, rh Mr Nick Harper, Mr Mark Metcalfe, Stephen Stanley, rh Sir John Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Harrington, Richard Miller, Maria Stephenson, Andrew Coffey, Dr Thérèse Harris, Rebecca Mills, Nigel Stevenson, John Collins, Damian Hart, Simon Milton, Anne Stewart, Bob Colvile, Oliver Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Stewart, Iain Cox, Mr Geoffrey Heald, Oliver Moore, rh Michael Stewart, Rory Crabb, Stephen Heath, Mr David Mordaunt, Penny Stride, Mel Crockart, Mike Heaton-Harris, Chris Morgan, Nicky Stuart, Ms Gisela Crouch, Tracey Hemming, John Morris, Anne Marie Stunell, Andrew Davey, Mr Edward Henderson, Gordon Morris, David Sturdy, Julian Davies, David T. C. Hendry, Charles Morris, James Swales, Ian (Monmouth) Herbert, rh Nick Mosley, Stephen Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Davies, Glyn Hermon, Lady Mowat, David Swinson, Jo Davies, Philip Hinds, Damian Mulholland, Greg Swire, rh Mr Hugo de Bois, Nick Hoban, Mr Mark Mundell, rh David Syms, Mr Robert Dinenage, Caroline Hollingbery, George Murray, Sheryll Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hopkins, Kris Murrison, Dr Andrew Teather, Sarah Dorries, Nadine Horwood, Martin Neill, Robert Timpson, Mr Edward Doyle-Price, Jackie Howell, John Newmark, Mr Brooks Tomlinson, Justin Drax, Richard Hughes, rh Simon Newton, Sarah Tredinnick, David Duddridge, James Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Nokes, Caroline Truss, Elizabeth Duncan, rh Mr Alan Hunter, Mark Nuttall, Mr David Turner, Mr Andrew Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Huppert, Dr Julian Offord, Mr Matthew Uppal, Paul Dunne, Mr Philip Hurd, Mr Nick Ollerenshaw, Eric Vara, Mr Shailesh Ellis, Michael Jackson, Mr Stewart Osborne, rh Mr George Vickers, Martin Ellison, Jane James, Margot Ottaway, Richard Walker, Mr Charles Ellwood, Mr Tobias Javid, Sajid Paice, rh Mr James Walker, Mr Robin Elphicke, Charlie Jenkin, Mr Bernard Parish, Neil Walter, Mr Robert Eustice, George Johnson, Gareth Patel, Priti Watkinson, Angela Evans, Graham Johnson, Joseph Paterson, rh Mr Owen Weatherley, Mike Evans, Jonathan Jones, Andrew Pawsey, Mark Webb, Steve Evennett, Mr David Jones, Mr David Penrose, John Wharton, James Fabricant, Michael Jones, Mr Marcus Percy, Andrew Wheeler, Heather Farron, Tim Kelly, Chris Perry, Claire White, Chris Featherstone, Lynne Kirby, Simon Phillips, Stephen Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Field, Mark Knight, rh Mr Greg Pincher, Christopher Whittingdale, Mr John Flynn, Paul Kwarteng, Kwasi Poulter, Dr Daniel Wiggin, Bill Foster, rh Mr Don Laing, Mrs Eleanor Prisk, Mr Mark Williams, Mr Mark Fox,rhDrLiam Lamb, Norman Pritchard, Mark Williams, Roger Francois, rh Mr Mark Lancaster, Mark Pugh, John Williams, Stephen Freeman, George Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Raab, Mr Dominic Williamson, Gavin Freer, Mike Laws, rh Mr David Randall, rh Mr John Fullbrook, Lorraine Lee, Jessica Reckless, Mark Willott, Jenny Fuller, Richard Leech, Mr John Redwood, rh Mr John Wilson, Mr Rob Gale, Sir Roger Lefroy, Jeremy Rees-Mogg, Jacob Wollaston, Dr Sarah Garnier, Mr Edward Leigh, Mr Edward Reid, Mr Alan Wright, Jeremy Garnier, Mark Leslie, Charlotte Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Wright, Simon Gauke, Mr David Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Robertson, Mr Laurence Yeo, Mr Tim George, Andrew Lewis, Brandon Rosindell, Andrew Young, rh Sir George Gibb, Mr Nick Lewis, Dr Julian Rudd, Amber Zahawi, Nadhim Gilbert, Stephen Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lilley, rh Mr Peter NOES Glen, John Lloyd, Stephen Abbott, Ms Diane Ali, Rushanara Goldsmith, Zac Long, Naomi Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Allen, Mr Graham Goodwill, Mr Robert Lopresti, Jack 433 Deferred Divisions8 FEBRUARY 2012 Deferred Divisions 434

Anderson, Mr David Fovargue, Yvonne Munn, Meg Smith, Nick Ashworth, Jonathan Francis, Dr Hywel Murphy, rh Mr Jim Smith, Owen Bailey, Mr Adrian Gapes, Mike Murphy, rh Paul Spellar, rh Mr John Bain, Mr William Gilmore, Sheila Murray, Ian Straw, rh Mr Jack Balls, rh Ed Glindon, Mrs Mary Onwurah, Chi Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Barron, rh Mr Kevin Goggins, rh Paul Osborne, Sandra Tami, Mark Bayley, Hugh Goodman, Helen Owen, Albert Thornberry, Emily Beckett, rh Margaret Greatrex, Tom Pearce, Teresa Timms, rh Stephen Begg, Dame Anne Green, Kate Perkins, Toby Trickett, Jon Bell, Sir Stuart Greenwood, Lilian Reynolds, Jonathan Turner, Karl Benn, rh Hilary Griffith, Nia Riordan, Mrs Linda Twigg, Derek Benton, Mr Joe Gwynne, Andrew Robertson, John Twigg, Stephen Berger, Luciana Hain, rh Mr Peter Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Vaz, rh Keith Betts, Mr Clive Hamilton, Mr David Rotheram, Steve Vaz, Valerie Blackman-Woods, Roberta Hamilton, Fabian Roy, Lindsay Walley, Joan Blenkinsop, Tom Hanson, rh Mr David Ruane, Chris Watts, Mr Dave Blunkett, rh Mr David Harman, rh Ms Harriet Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Whitehead, Dr Alan Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Harris, Mr Tom Sanders, Mr Adrian Wicks, rh Malcolm Brennan, Kevin Havard, Mr Dai Sarwar, Anas Williams, Hywel Brown, Lyn Healey, rh John Seabeck, Alison Williamson, Chris Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Hepburn, Mr Stephen Sheridan, Jim Wilson, Phil Brown, Mr Russell Heyes, David Shuker, Gavin Wilson, Sammy Bryant, Chris Hillier, Meg Simpson, David Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Burden, Richard Hilling, Julie Skinner, Mr Dennis Woodcock, John Campbell, Mr Alan Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Slaughter, Mr Andy Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Campbell, Mr Gregory Howarth, rh Mr George Smith, rh Mr Andrew Wright, David Campbell, Mr Ronnie Irranca-Davies, Huw Smith, Angela Wright, Mr Iain Caton, Martin James, Mrs Siân C. Chapman, Mrs Jenny Jamieson, Cathy Question accordingly agreed to. Clark, Katy Jarvis, Dan Clarke, rh Mr Tom Johnson, rh Alan That the draft City of Coventry (Mayoral Referendum) Order Clwyd, rh Ann Johnson, Diana 2012, which was laid before this House on 5 December, be Coaker, Vernon Jones, Graham approved. Coffey, Ann Jones, Helen The House divided: Ayes 314, Noes 201. Connarty, Michael Jones, Mr Kevan Cooper, Rosie Jones, Susan Elan Division No. 465] Cooper, rh Yvette Jowell, rh Tessa Corbyn, Jeremy Joyce, Eric AYES Crausby, Mr David Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Adams, Nigel Brokenshire, James Creasy, Stella Keeley, Barbara Afriyie, Adam Brooke, Annette Cruddas, Jon Khan, rh Sadiq Aldous, Peter Browne, Mr Jeremy Cryer, John Lammy, rh Mr David Alexander, rh Danny Bruce, Fiona Cunningham, Mr Jim Lavery, Ian Amess, Mr David Buckland, Mr Robert Cunningham, Tony Lazarowicz, Mark Andrew, Stuart Burns, Conor Curran, Margaret Leslie, Chris Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Burns, rh Mr Simon Dakin, Nic Lloyd, Tony Baker, Norman Burrowes, Mr David Baker, Steve Danczuk, Simon Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Burstow, Paul David, Mr Wayne Lucas, Caroline Baldry, Tony Burt, Alistair Davies, Geraint MacShane, rh Mr Denis Baldwin, Harriett Burt, Lorely De Piero, Gloria Mactaggart, Fiona Barclay, Stephen Byles, Dan Denham, rh Mr John Mahmood, Mr Khalid Barwell, Gavin Cable, rh Vince Dobbin, Jim Malhotra, Seema Bebb, Guto Dobson, rh Frank Marsden, Mr Gordon Beith, rh Sir Alan Cameron, rh Mr David Dodds, rh Mr Nigel McCabe, Steve Benyon, Richard Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. McCann, Mr Michael Beresford, Sir Paul Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Donohoe, Mr Brian H. McCarthy, Kerry Berry, Jake Carmichael, Neil Doran, Mr Frank McClymont, Gregg Bingham, Andrew Carswell, Mr Douglas Dowd, Jim McCrea, Dr William Binley, Mr Brian Cash, Mr William Dromey, Jack McDonagh, Siobhain Birtwistle, Gordon Chishti, Rehman Dugher, Michael McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Blackman, Bob Clappison, Mr James Eagle, Maria McDonnell, John Blackwood, Nicola Clark, rh Greg Edwards, Jonathan McGovern, Jim Blunt, Mr Crispin Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Efford, Clive McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Boles, Nick Clegg, rh Mr Nick Elliott, Julie McKechin, Ann Bone, Mr Peter Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Ellman, Mrs Louise Michael, rh Alun Bottomley, Sir Peter Coffey, Dr Thérèse Engel, Natascha Miliband, rh Edward Bradley, Karen Collins, Damian Esterson, Bill Miller, Andrew Brady, Mr Graham Colvile, Oliver Evans, Chris Morden, Jessica Brake, rh Tom Cox, Mr Geoffrey Farrelly, Paul Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Bray, Angie Crabb, Stephen Fitzpatrick, Jim Morris, Grahame M. Brazier, Mr Julian Crockart, Mike Flello, Robert (Easington) Bridgen, Andrew Crouch, Tracey Flint, rh Caroline Mudie, Mr George Brine, Steve Davey, Mr Edward 435 Deferred Divisions8 FEBRUARY 2012 Deferred Divisions 436

Davies, David T. C. Herbert, rh Nick Morris, James Smith, Miss Chloe (Monmouth) Hermon, Lady Mosley, Stephen Smith, Henry Davies, Glyn Hinds, Damian Mowat, David Smith, Julian Davies, Philip Hoban, Mr Mark Mulholland, Greg Spencer, Mr Mark de Bois, Nick Hollingbery, George Mundell, rh David Stanley, rh Sir John Dinenage, Caroline Hollobone, Mr Philip Murray, Sheryll Stephenson, Andrew Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hopkins, Kris Murrison, Dr Andrew Stevenson, John Doyle-Price, Jackie Horwood, Martin Neill, Robert Stewart, Bob Drax, Richard Howell, John Newmark, Mr Brooks Stewart, Iain Duddridge, James Hughes, rh Simon Newton, Sarah Stewart, Rory Duncan, rh Mr Alan Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Nokes, Caroline Stride, Mel Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Hunter, Mark Nuttall, Mr David Stuart, Ms Gisela Dunne, Mr Philip Huppert, Dr Julian Offord, Mr Matthew Stunell, Andrew Ellis, Michael Hurd, Mr Nick Ollerenshaw, Eric Sturdy, Julian Ellison, Jane Jackson, Mr Stewart Osborne, rh Mr George Swales, Ian Ellwood, Mr Tobias James, Margot Ottaway, Richard Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Elphicke, Charlie Javid, Sajid Paice, rh Mr James Swinson, Jo Eustice, George Jenkin, Mr Bernard Parish, Neil Swire, rh Mr Hugo Evans, Graham Johnson, Gareth Patel, Priti Syms, Mr Robert Evans, Jonathan Johnson, Joseph Paterson, rh Mr Owen Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Evennett, Mr David Jones, Andrew Pawsey, Mark Teather, Sarah Fabricant, Michael Jones, Mr David Penrose, John Timpson, Mr Edward Farron, Tim Jones, Mr Marcus Percy, Andrew Tomlinson, Justin Featherstone, Lynne Kelly, Chris Perry, Claire Tredinnick, David Field, Mark Kirby, Simon Phillips, Stephen Truss, Elizabeth Flynn, Paul Knight, rh Mr Greg Pincher, Christopher Turner, Mr Andrew Foster, rh Mr Don Kwarteng, Kwasi Poulter, Dr Daniel Uppal, Paul Fox,rhDrLiam Laing, Mrs Eleanor Prisk, Mr Mark Vara, Mr Shailesh Francois, rh Mr Mark Lamb, Norman Pritchard, Mark Vickers, Martin Freeman, George Lancaster, Mark Pugh, John Walker, Mr Charles Freer, Mike Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Raab, Mr Dominic Walker, Mr Robin Fullbrook, Lorraine Laws, rh Mr David Randall, rh Mr John Walter, Mr Robert Fuller, Richard Lee, Jessica Reckless, Mark Watkinson, Angela Gale, Sir Roger Leech, Mr John Redwood, rh Mr John Weatherley, Mike Garnier, Mr Edward Lefroy, Jeremy Rees-Mogg, Jacob Webb, Steve Garnier, Mark Leigh, Mr Edward Reid, Mr Alan Wharton, James Gauke, Mr David Leslie, Charlotte Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Wheeler, Heather George, Andrew Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Robertson, Mr Laurence White, Chris Gibb, Mr Nick Lewis, Brandon Rosindell, Andrew Whittingdale, Mr John Gilbert, Stephen Lewis, Dr Julian Rudd, Amber Wiggin, Bill Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Ruffley, Mr David Williams, Mr Mark Glen, John Lilley, rh Mr Peter Russell, Sir Bob Williams, Roger Goldsmith, Zac Lloyd, Stephen Rutley, David Williams, Stephen Goodwill, Mr Robert Long, Naomi Sandys, Laura Williamson, Gavin Graham, Richard Lopresti, Jack Scott, Mr Lee Willott, Jenny Grant, Mrs Helen Lord, Jonathan Selous, Andrew Wilson, Mr Rob Gray, Mr James Loughton, Tim Shapps, rh Grant Wollaston, Dr Sarah Grayling, rh Chris Luff, Peter Sharma, Alok Wright, Jeremy Green, Damian Lumley, Karen Shelbrooke, Alec Wright, Simon Greening, rh Justine Macleod, Mary Shepherd, Mr Richard Yeo, Mr Tim Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Main, Mrs Anne Simpson, Mr Keith Young, rh Sir George Griffiths, Andrew Maude, rh Mr Francis Skidmore, Chris Zahawi, Nadhim Gummer, Ben May, rh Mrs Theresa Hague, rh Mr William Maynard, Paul NOES Halfon, Robert McCartney, Jason Hames, Duncan McCartney, Karl Abbott, Ms Diane Betts, Mr Clive Hammond, rh Mr Philip McIntosh, Miss Anne Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Blackman-Woods, Roberta Hammond, Stephen McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Ali, Rushanara Blenkinsop, Tom Hancock, Matthew McPartland, Stephen Allen, Mr Graham Blunkett, rh Mr David Hancock, Mr Mike McVey, Esther Anderson, Mr David Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Hands, Greg Mensch, Louise Ashworth, Jonathan Brennan, Kevin Harper, Mr Mark Menzies, Mark Bailey, Mr Adrian Brown, Lyn Harrington, Richard Metcalfe, Stephen Bain, Mr William Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Harris, Rebecca Miller, Maria Balls, rh Ed Brown, Mr Russell Hart, Simon Mills, Nigel Barron, rh Mr Kevin Bryant, Chris Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Milton, Anne Bayley, Hugh Burden, Richard Heald, Oliver Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Beckett, rh Margaret Campbell, Mr Alan Heath, Mr David Moore, rh Michael Begg, Dame Anne Campbell, Mr Gregory Heaton-Harris, Chris Mordaunt, Penny Bell, Sir Stuart Campbell, Mr Ronnie Hemming, John Morgan, Nicky Benn, rh Hilary Caton, Martin Henderson, Gordon Morris, Anne Marie Benton, Mr Joe Chapman, Mrs Jenny Hendry, Charles Morris, David Berger, Luciana Clark, Katy 437 Deferred Divisions8 FEBRUARY 2012 Deferred Divisions 438

Clarke, rh Mr Tom Johnson, rh Alan Straw, rh Mr Jack Watts, Mr Dave Clwyd, rh Ann Johnson, Diana Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Whitehead, Dr Alan Coaker, Vernon Jones, Graham Tami, Mark Wicks, rh Malcolm Coffey, Ann Jones, Helen Thornberry, Emily Williams, Hywel Connarty, Michael Jones, Mr Kevan Timms, rh Stephen Williamson, Chris Cooper, Rosie Jones, Susan Elan Trickett, Jon Wilson, Phil Cooper, rh Yvette Jowell, rh Tessa Turner, Karl Wilson, Sammy Corbyn, Jeremy Joyce, Eric Twigg, Derek Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Crausby, Mr David Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Twigg, Stephen Woodcock, John Creasy, Stella Keeley, Barbara Vaz, rh Keith Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Cruddas, Jon Khan, rh Sadiq Vaz, Valerie Wright, David Cryer, John Lammy, rh Mr David Walley, Joan Wright, Mr Iain Cunningham, Mr Jim Lavery, Ian Cunningham, Tony Lazarowicz, Mark Question accordingly agreed to. Curran, Margaret Leslie, Chris Dakin, Nic Lloyd, Tony That the draft City of Wakefield (Mayoral Referendum) Order Danczuk, Simon Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn 2012, which was laid before this House on 5 December, be David, Mr Wayne Lucas, Caroline approved. Davies, Geraint MacShane, rh Mr Denis The House divided: Ayes 316, Noes 201. De Piero, Gloria Mactaggart, Fiona Denham, rh Mr John Mahmood, Mr Khalid Division No. 466] Dobbin, Jim Malhotra, Seema Dobson, rh Frank Marsden, Mr Gordon AYES Dodds, rh Mr Nigel McCabe, Steve Adams, Nigel Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. McCann, Mr Michael Afriyie, Adam Carmichael, Neil Donohoe, Mr Brian H. McCarthy, Kerry Aldous, Peter Carswell, Mr Douglas Doran, Mr Frank McClymont, Gregg Alexander, rh Danny Cash, Mr William Dowd, Jim McCrea, Dr William Amess, Mr David Chishti, Rehman Dromey, Jack McDonagh, Siobhain Andrew, Stuart Clappison, Mr James Dugher, Michael McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Clark, rh Greg Eagle, Maria McDonnell, John Baker, Norman Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Edwards, Jonathan McGovern, Jim Baker, Steve Clegg, rh Mr Nick Efford, Clive McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Baldry, Tony Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Elliott, Julie McKechin, Ann Baldwin, Harriett Coffey, Dr Thérèse Ellman, Mrs Louise Michael, rh Alun Barclay, Stephen Collins, Damian Engel, Natascha Miliband, rh Edward Barwell, Gavin Colvile, Oliver Esterson, Bill Miller, Andrew Bebb, Guto Cox, Mr Geoffrey Evans, Chris Morden, Jessica Beith, rh Sir Alan Crabb, Stephen Farrelly, Paul Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Benyon, Richard Crockart, Mike Fitzpatrick, Jim Morris, Grahame M. Beresford, Sir Paul Crouch, Tracey Flello, Robert (Easington) Berry, Jake Davey, Mr Edward Flint, rh Caroline Mudie, Mr George Bingham, Andrew Davies, David T. C. Fovargue, Yvonne Munn, Meg Binley, Mr Brian (Monmouth) Francis, Dr Hywel Murphy, rh Mr Jim Birtwistle, Gordon Davies, Glyn Gapes, Mike Murphy, rh Paul Blackman, Bob Davies, Philip Gilmore, Sheila Murray, Ian Blackwood, Nicola de Bois, Nick Glindon, Mrs Mary Onwurah, Chi Blunt, Mr Crispin Dinenage, Caroline Goggins, rh Paul Osborne, Sandra Boles, Nick Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Goodman, Helen Owen, Albert Bone, Mr Peter Dorries, Nadine Greatrex, Tom Pearce, Teresa Bottomley, Sir Peter Doyle-Price, Jackie Green, Kate Perkins, Toby Bradley, Karen Drax, Richard Greenwood, Lilian Reynolds, Jonathan Brady, Mr Graham Duddridge, James Griffith, Nia Riordan, Mrs Linda Brake, rh Tom Duncan, rh Mr Alan Gwynne, Andrew Robertson, John Bray, Angie Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Hain, rh Mr Peter Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Brazier, Mr Julian Dunne, Mr Philip Hamilton, Mr David Rotheram, Steve Bridgen, Andrew Ellis, Michael Hamilton, Fabian Roy, Lindsay Brine, Steve Ellison, Jane Hanson, rh Mr David Ruane, Chris Brokenshire, James Ellwood, Mr Tobias Harman, rh Ms Harriet Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Brooke, Annette Elphicke, Charlie Harris, Mr Tom Sanders, Mr Adrian Browne, Mr Jeremy Eustice, George Havard, Mr Dai Sarwar, Anas Bruce, Fiona Evans, Graham Healey, rh John Seabeck, Alison Buckland, Mr Robert Evans, Jonathan Hepburn, Mr Stephen Sheridan, Jim Burns, Conor Evennett, Mr David Heyes, David Shuker, Gavin Burns, rh Mr Simon Fabricant, Michael Hillier, Meg Simpson, David Burrowes, Mr David Farron, Tim Hilling, Julie Skinner, Mr Dennis Burstow, Paul Featherstone, Lynne Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Slaughter, Mr Andy Burt, Alistair Field, Mark Howarth, rh Mr George Smith, rh Mr Andrew Burt, Lorely Flynn, Paul Irranca-Davies, Huw Smith, Angela Byles, Dan Foster, rh Mr Don James, Mrs Siân C. Smith, Nick Cable, rh Vince Fox,rhDrLiam Jamieson, Cathy Smith, Owen Cameron, rh Mr David Francois, rh Mr Mark Jarvis, Dan Spellar, rh Mr John Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Freeman, George 439 Deferred Divisions8 FEBRUARY 2012 Deferred Divisions 440

Freer, Mike Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Raab, Mr Dominic Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Fullbrook, Lorraine Laws, rh Mr David Randall, rh Mr John Swinson, Jo Fuller, Richard Lee, Jessica Reckless, Mark Swire, rh Mr Hugo Gale, Sir Roger Leech, Mr John Redwood, rh Mr John Syms, Mr Robert Garnier, Mr Edward Lefroy, Jeremy Rees-Mogg, Jacob Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Garnier, Mark Leigh, Mr Edward Reid, Mr Alan Teather, Sarah Gauke, Mr David Leslie, Charlotte Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Timpson, Mr Edward George, Andrew Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Robertson, Mr Laurence Tomlinson, Justin Gibb, Mr Nick Lewis, Brandon Rosindell, Andrew Tredinnick, David Gilbert, Stephen Lewis, Dr Julian Rudd, Amber Truss, Elizabeth Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Ruffley, Mr David Turner, Mr Andrew Glen, John Lilley, rh Mr Peter Russell, Sir Bob Uppal, Paul Goldsmith, Zac Lloyd, Stephen Rutley, David Vara, Mr Shailesh Goodwill, Mr Robert Long, Naomi Sandys, Laura Vickers, Martin Graham, Richard Lopresti, Jack Scott, Mr Lee Walker, Mr Charles Grant, Mrs Helen Lord, Jonathan Selous, Andrew Walker, Mr Robin Gray, Mr James Loughton, Tim Shapps, rh Grant Walter, Mr Robert Grayling, rh Chris Luff, Peter Sharma, Alok Watkinson, Angela Green, Damian Lumley, Karen Shelbrooke, Alec Weatherley, Mike Greening, rh Justine Macleod, Mary Shepherd, Mr Richard Webb, Steve Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Main, Mrs Anne Simpson, Mr Keith Wharton, James Griffiths, Andrew Maude, rh Mr Francis Skidmore, Chris Wheeler, Heather Gummer, Ben May, rh Mrs Theresa Smith, Miss Chloe White, Chris Hague, rh Mr William Maynard, Paul Smith, Henry Whittingdale, Mr John Halfon, Robert McCartney, Jason Smith, Julian Wiggin, Bill Hames, Duncan McCartney, Karl Soubry, Anna Williams, Mr Mark Hammond, rh Mr Philip McIntosh, Miss Anne Spencer, Mr Mark Williams, Roger Hammond, Stephen McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Stanley, rh Sir John Williams, Stephen Hancock, Matthew McPartland, Stephen Stephenson, Andrew Williamson, Gavin Hancock, Mr Mike McVey, Esther Stevenson, John Hands, Greg Mensch, Louise Stewart, Bob Willott, Jenny Harper, Mr Mark Menzies, Mark Stewart, Iain Wilson, Mr Rob Harrington, Richard Metcalfe, Stephen Stewart, Rory Wollaston, Dr Sarah Harris, Rebecca Miller, Maria Stride, Mel Wright, Jeremy Hart, Simon Mills, Nigel Stuart, Ms Gisela Wright, Simon Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Milton, Anne Stunell, Andrew Yeo, Mr Tim Heald, Oliver Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Sturdy, Julian Young, rh Sir George Heath, Mr David Moore, rh Michael Swales, Ian Zahawi, Nadhim Heaton-Harris, Chris Mordaunt, Penny Hemming, John Morgan, Nicky NOES Henderson, Gordon Morris, Anne Marie Hendry, Charles Morris, David Abbott, Ms Diane Caton, Martin Herbert, rh Nick Morris, James Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Chapman, Mrs Jenny Hermon, Lady Mosley, Stephen Ali, Rushanara Clark, Katy Hinds, Damian Mowat, David Allen, Mr Graham Clarke, rh Mr Tom Hoban, Mr Mark Mulholland, Greg Anderson, Mr David Clwyd, rh Ann Hollingbery, George Mundell, rh David Ashworth, Jonathan Coaker, Vernon Hollobone, Mr Philip Murray, Sheryll Bailey, Mr Adrian Coffey, Ann Hopkins, Kris Murrison, Dr Andrew Bain, Mr William Connarty, Michael Horwood, Martin Neill, Robert Balls, rh Ed Cooper, Rosie Howell, John Newmark, Mr Brooks Barron, rh Mr Kevin Cooper, rh Yvette Hughes, rh Simon Newton, Sarah Bayley, Hugh Corbyn, Jeremy Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Nokes, Caroline Beckett, rh Margaret Crausby, Mr David Hunter, Mark Nuttall, Mr David Begg, Dame Anne Creasy, Stella Huppert, Dr Julian Offord, Mr Matthew Bell, Sir Stuart Cruddas, Jon Hurd, Mr Nick Ollerenshaw, Eric Benn, rh Hilary Cryer, John Jackson, Mr Stewart Osborne, rh Mr George Benton, Mr Joe Cunningham, Mr Jim James, Margot Ottaway, Richard Berger, Luciana Cunningham, Tony Javid, Sajid Paice, rh Mr James Betts, Mr Clive Curran, Margaret Jenkin, Mr Bernard Parish, Neil Blackman-Woods, Roberta Dakin, Nic Johnson, Gareth Patel, Priti Blenkinsop, Tom Danczuk, Simon Johnson, Joseph Paterson, rh Mr Owen Blunkett, rh Mr David David, Mr Wayne Jones, Andrew Pawsey, Mark Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Davies, Geraint Jones, Mr David Penrose, John Brennan, Kevin De Piero, Gloria Jones, Mr Marcus Percy, Andrew Brown, Lyn Denham, rh Mr John Kelly, Chris Perry, Claire Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Dobbin, Jim Kirby, Simon Phillips, Stephen Brown, Mr Russell Dobson, rh Frank Knight, rh Mr Greg Pincher, Christopher Bryant, Chris Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Kwarteng, Kwasi Poulter, Dr Daniel Burden, Richard Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Laing, Mrs Eleanor Prisk, Mr Mark Campbell, Mr Alan Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Lamb, Norman Pritchard, Mark Campbell, Mr Gregory Doran, Mr Frank Lancaster, Mark Pugh, John Campbell, Mr Ronnie Dowd, Jim 441 Deferred Divisions8 FEBRUARY 2012 Deferred Divisions 442

Dromey, Jack McClymont, Gregg BROADCASTING Dugher, Michael McCrea, Dr William That the draft Local Digital Television Programme Services Eagle, Maria McDonagh, Siobhain Order 2012, which was laid before this House on 15 December, be Edwards, Jonathan McDonnell, Dr Alasdair approved. Efford, Clive McDonnell, John Elliott, Julie McGovern, Jim The House divided: Ayes 326, Noes 198. Ellman, Mrs Louise McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Division No. 467] Engel, Natascha McKechin, Ann Esterson, Bill Michael, rh Alun AYES Evans, Chris Miliband, rh Edward Adams, Nigel Cox, Mr Geoffrey Farrelly, Paul Miller, Andrew Afriyie, Adam Crabb, Stephen Fitzpatrick, Jim Morden, Jessica Aldous, Peter Crockart, Mike Flello, Robert Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Alexander, rh Danny Crouch, Tracey Flint, rh Caroline Morris, Grahame M. Amess, Mr David Davey, Mr Edward Fovargue, Yvonne (Easington) Andrew, Stuart Davies, David T. C. Francis, Dr Hywel Mudie, Mr George Arbuthnot, rh Mr James (Monmouth) Gapes, Mike Munn, Meg Baker, Norman Davies, Glyn Gilmore, Sheila Murphy, rh Mr Jim Baker, Steve Davies, Philip Glindon, Mrs Mary Murphy, rh Paul Baldry, Tony de Bois, Nick Goggins, rh Paul Murray, Ian Baldwin, Harriett Dinenage, Caroline Goodman, Helen Onwurah, Chi Barclay, Stephen Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Greatrex, Tom Osborne, Sandra Barwell, Gavin Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Green, Kate Owen, Albert Bebb, Guto Dorries, Nadine Greenwood, Lilian Pearce, Teresa Beith, rh Sir Alan Doyle-Price, Jackie Griffith, Nia Perkins, Toby Benyon, Richard Drax, Richard Gwynne, Andrew Reynolds, Jonathan Beresford, Sir Paul Duddridge, James Hain, rh Mr Peter Riordan, Mrs Linda Berry, Jake Duncan, rh Mr Alan Hamilton, Mr David Robertson, John Bingham, Andrew Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Hamilton, Fabian Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Binley, Mr Brian Dunne, Mr Philip Hanson, rh Mr David Rotheram, Steve Birtwistle, Gordon Ellis, Michael Harman, rh Ms Harriet Roy, Lindsay Blackman, Bob Ellison, Jane Harris, Mr Tom Ruane, Chris Blackwood, Nicola Ellwood, Mr Tobias Havard, Mr Dai Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Blunt, Mr Crispin Elphicke, Charlie Healey, rh John Sanders, Mr Adrian Boles, Nick Eustice, George Hepburn, Mr Stephen Sarwar, Anas Bone, Mr Peter Evans, Graham Heyes, David Seabeck, Alison Bottomley, Sir Peter Evans, Jonathan Hillier, Meg Sheridan, Jim Bradley, Karen Evennett, Mr David Hilling, Julie Shuker, Gavin Brady, Mr Graham Fabricant, Michael Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Simpson, David Brake, rh Tom Farron, Tim Howarth, rh Mr George Skinner, Mr Dennis Bray, Angie Featherstone, Lynne Irranca-Davies, Huw Slaughter, Mr Andy Brazier, Mr Julian Field, Mark James, Mrs Siân C. Smith, rh Mr Andrew Bridgen, Andrew Flynn, Paul Jamieson, Cathy Smith, Angela Brine, Steve Foster, rh Mr Don Jarvis, Dan Smith, Nick Brokenshire, James Fox,rhDrLiam Johnson, rh Alan Smith, Owen Brooke, Annette Francois, rh Mr Mark Johnson, Diana Spellar, rh Mr John Browne, Mr Jeremy Freeman, George Jones, Graham Straw, rh Mr Jack Bruce, Fiona Freer, Mike Jones, Helen Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Buckland, Mr Robert Fullbrook, Lorraine Jones, Mr Kevan Tami, Mark Burns, Conor Fuller, Richard Jones, Susan Elan Thornberry, Emily Burns, rh Mr Simon Gale, Sir Roger Jowell, rh Tessa Timms, rh Stephen Burrowes, Mr David Garnier, Mr Edward Joyce, Eric Trickett, Jon Burstow, Paul Garnier, Mark Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Turner, Karl Burt, Alistair Gauke, Mr David Keeley, Barbara Twigg, Derek Burt, Lorely George, Andrew Khan, rh Sadiq Twigg, Stephen Byles, Dan Gibb, Mr Nick Lammy, rh Mr David Vaz, rh Keith Cable, rh Vince Gilbert, Stephen Lavery, Ian Vaz, Valerie Cameron, rh Mr David Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lazarowicz, Mark Walley, Joan Campbell, Mr Gregory Glen, John Leslie, Chris Watts, Mr Dave Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Goldsmith, Zac Lloyd, Tony Whitehead, Dr Alan Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Goodwill, Mr Robert Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Wicks, rh Malcolm Carmichael, Neil Graham, Richard Lucas, Caroline Williams, Hywel Carswell, Mr Douglas Grant, Mrs Helen MacShane, rh Mr Denis Williamson, Chris Cash, Mr William Gray, Mr James Mactaggart, Fiona Wilson, Phil Chishti, Rehman Grayling, rh Chris Mahmood, Mr Khalid Wilson, Sammy Clappison, Mr James Green, Damian Malhotra, Seema Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Clark, rh Greg Greening, rh Justine Marsden, Mr Gordon Woodcock, John Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Grieve, rh Mr Dominic McCabe, Steve Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Clegg, rh Mr Nick Griffiths, Andrew McCann, Mr Michael Wright, David Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Gummer, Ben McCarthy, Kerry Wright, Mr Iain Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hague, rh Mr William Collins, Damian Halfon, Robert Question accordingly agreed to. Colvile, Oliver Hames, Duncan 443 Deferred Divisions8 FEBRUARY 2012 Deferred Divisions 444

Hammond, rh Mr Philip McCartney, Jason Simpson, David Vara, Mr Shailesh Hammond, Stephen McCartney, Karl Simpson, Mr Keith Vickers, Martin Hancock, Matthew McCrea, Dr William Skidmore, Chris Walker, Mr Charles Hancock, Mr Mike McIntosh, Miss Anne Smith, Miss Chloe Walker, Mr Robin Hands, Greg McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Smith, Henry Walter, Mr Robert Harper, Mr Mark McPartland, Stephen Smith, Julian Ward, Mr David Harrington, Richard McVey, Esther Soubry, Anna Watkinson, Angela Harris, Rebecca Mensch, Louise Spencer, Mr Mark Weatherley, Mike Hart, Simon Menzies, Mark Stanley, rh Sir John Webb, Steve Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Metcalfe, Stephen Stephenson, Andrew Weir, Mr Mike Heald, Oliver Miller, Maria Stevenson, John Wharton, James Heath, Mr David Mills, Nigel Stewart, Bob Wheeler, Heather Heaton-Harris, Chris Milton, Anne Stewart, Iain White, Chris Hemming, John Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Stewart, Rory Whittingdale, Mr John Henderson, Gordon Moore, rh Michael Stride, Mel Wiggin, Bill Hendry, Charles Mordaunt, Penny Stunell, Andrew Williams, Mr Mark Herbert, rh Nick Morgan, Nicky Sturdy, Julian Williams, Roger Hermon, Lady Morris, Anne Marie Swales, Ian Williams, Stephen Hinds, Damian Morris, David Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Williamson, Gavin Hoban, Mr Mark Morris, James Swinson, Jo Willott, Jenny Hollingbery, George Mosley, Stephen Swire, rh Mr Hugo Wilson, Mr Rob Hollobone, Mr Philip Mowat, David Syms, Mr Robert Wilson, Sammy Hopkins, Kris Mulholland, Greg Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Wishart, Pete Horwood, Martin Mundell, rh David Teather, Sarah Wollaston, Dr Sarah Howell, John Murray, Sheryll Timpson, Mr Edward Wright, Jeremy Hughes, rh Simon Murrison, Dr Andrew Tomlinson, Justin Wright, Simon Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Neill, Robert Tredinnick, David Yeo, Mr Tim Hunter, Mark Newmark, Mr Brooks Truss, Elizabeth Young, rh Sir George Huppert, Dr Julian Newton, Sarah Uppal, Paul Zahawi, Nadhim Hurd, Mr Nick Nokes, Caroline Jackson, Mr Stewart Nuttall, Mr David NOES James, Margot Offord, Mr Matthew Javid, Sajid Ollerenshaw, Eric Abbott, Ms Diane Cooper, Rosie Jenkin, Mr Bernard Osborne, rh Mr George Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Cooper, rh Yvette Johnson, Gareth Ottaway, Richard Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Corbyn, Jeremy Johnson, Joseph Paice, rh Mr James Ali, Rushanara Crausby, Mr David Jones, Andrew Parish, Neil Allen, Mr Graham Creasy, Stella Jones, Mr David Patel, Priti Anderson, Mr David Cruddas, Jon Jones, Mr Marcus Paterson, rh Mr Owen Ashworth, Jonathan Cryer, John Kelly, Chris Pawsey, Mark Bailey, Mr Adrian Cunningham, Mr Jim Kirby, Simon Penrose, John Bain, Mr William Cunningham, Tony Knight, rh Mr Greg Percy, Andrew Balls, rh Ed Curran, Margaret Kwarteng, Kwasi Perry, Claire Barron, rh Mr Kevin Dakin, Nic Laing, Mrs Eleanor Phillips, Stephen Bayley, Hugh Danczuk, Simon Lamb, Norman Pincher, Christopher Beckett, rh Margaret David, Mr Wayne Lancaster, Mark Poulter, Dr Daniel Begg, Dame Anne Davies, Geraint Prisk, Mr Mark Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Bell, Sir Stuart De Piero, Gloria Pritchard, Mark Laws, rh Mr David Benn, rh Hilary Denham, rh Mr John Pugh, John Lee, Jessica Benton, Mr Joe Dobbin, Jim Raab, Mr Dominic Leech, Mr John Berger, Luciana Dobson, rh Frank Randall, rh Mr John Lefroy, Jeremy Reckless, Mark Betts, Mr Clive Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Leigh, Mr Edward Redwood, rh Mr John Blackman-Woods, Roberta Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Leslie, Charlotte Rees-Mogg, Jacob Blenkinsop, Tom Doran, Mr Frank Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Reid, Mr Alan Blunkett, rh Mr David Dowd, Jim Lewis, Brandon Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Dromey, Jack Lewis, Dr Julian Robertson, Angus Brennan, Kevin Dugher, Michael Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Robertson, Mr Laurence Brown, Lyn Durkan, Mark Lilley, rh Mr Peter Rosindell, Andrew Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Eagle, Maria Lloyd, Stephen Rudd, Amber Brown, Mr Russell Edwards, Jonathan Long, Naomi Ruffley, Mr David Bryant, Chris Efford, Clive Lopresti, Jack Russell, Sir Bob Burden, Richard Elliott, Julie Lord, Jonathan Rutley, David Campbell, Mr Alan Ellman, Mrs Louise Loughton, Tim Sanders, Mr Adrian Campbell, Mr Ronnie Engel, Natascha Lucas, Caroline Sandys, Laura Caton, Martin Esterson, Bill Luff, Peter Scott, Mr Lee Chapman, Mrs Jenny Evans, Chris Lumley, Karen Selous, Andrew Clark, Katy Farrelly, Paul Macleod, Mary Shannon, Jim Clarke, rh Mr Tom Fitzpatrick, Jim Main, Mrs Anne Shapps, rh Grant Clwyd, rh Ann Flello, Robert Maude, rh Mr Francis Sharma, Alok Coaker, Vernon Flint, rh Caroline May, rh Mrs Theresa Shelbrooke, Alec Coffey, Ann Fovargue, Yvonne Maynard, Paul Shepherd, Mr Richard Connarty, Michael Francis, Dr Hywel 445 Deferred Divisions8 FEBRUARY 2012 Deferred Divisions 446

Gapes, Mike Michael, rh Alun The House divided: Ayes 325, Noes 198. Gilmore, Sheila Miliband, rh Edward Division No. 468] Glindon, Mrs Mary Miller, Andrew Goggins, rh Paul Morden, Jessica Goodman, Helen Morrice, Graeme AYES Greatrex, Tom (Livingston) Adams, Nigel Davey, Mr Edward Green, Kate Morris, Grahame M. Afriyie, Adam Davies, David T. C. Greenwood, Lilian (Easington) Aldous, Peter (Monmouth) Griffith, Nia Mudie, Mr George Alexander, rh Danny Davies, Glyn Gwynne, Andrew Munn, Meg Amess, Mr David Davies, Philip Hain, rh Mr Peter Murphy, rh Mr Jim Andrew, Stuart de Bois, Nick Hamilton, Mr David Murphy, rh Paul Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Dinenage, Caroline Hamilton, Fabian Murray, Ian Baker, Norman Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hanson, rh Mr David Onwurah, Chi Baker, Steve Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Harman, rh Ms Harriet Osborne, Sandra Baldry, Tony Dorries, Nadine Harris, Mr Tom Owen, Albert Baldwin, Harriett Doyle-Price, Jackie Havard, Mr Dai Pearce, Teresa Barclay, Stephen Drax, Richard Healey, rh John Perkins, Toby Barwell, Gavin Duddridge, James Hepburn, Mr Stephen Reynolds, Jonathan Bebb, Guto Duncan, rh Mr Alan Heyes, David Riordan, Mrs Linda Beith, rh Sir Alan Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Hillier, Meg Robertson, John Benyon, Richard Dunne, Mr Philip Hilling, Julie Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Beresford, Sir Paul Ellis, Michael Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Rotheram, Steve Berry, Jake Ellison, Jane Howarth, rh Mr George Roy, Lindsay Bingham, Andrew Ellwood, Mr Tobias Irranca-Davies, Huw Ruane, Chris Binley, Mr Brian Elphicke, Charlie James, Mrs Siân C. Ruddock, rh Dame Birtwistle, Gordon Eustice, George Jamieson, Cathy Joan Blackman, Bob Evans, Graham Jarvis, Dan Sarwar, Anas Blackwood, Nicola Evans, Jonathan Johnson, rh Alan Seabeck, Alison Blunt, Mr Crispin Evennett, Mr David Johnson, Diana Sheridan, Jim Boles, Nick Fabricant, Michael Jones, Graham Shuker, Gavin Bone, Mr Peter Farron, Tim Jones, Helen Skinner, Mr Dennis Bottomley, Sir Peter Featherstone, Lynne Jones, Mr Kevan Slaughter, Mr Andy Bradley, Karen Field, Mark Jones, Susan Elan Smith, rh Mr Andrew Brady, Mr Graham Flynn, Paul Jowell, rh Tessa Smith, Angela Brake, rh Tom Foster, rh Mr Don Joyce, Eric Smith, Nick Bray, Angie Fox,rhDrLiam Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Smith, Owen Brazier, Mr Julian Francois, rh Mr Mark Keeley, Barbara Spellar, rh Mr John Bridgen, Andrew Freeman, George Khan, rh Sadiq Straw, rh Mr Jack Brine, Steve Freer, Mike Lammy, rh Mr David Stuart, Ms Gisela Brokenshire, James Fullbrook, Lorraine Lavery, Ian Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Brooke, Annette Fuller, Richard Lazarowicz, Mark Tami, Mark Browne, Mr Jeremy Gale, Sir Roger Leslie, Chris Thornberry, Emily Bruce, Fiona Garnier, Mr Edward Lloyd, Tony Timms, rh Stephen Buckland, Mr Robert Garnier, Mark Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Trickett, Jon Burns, Conor Gauke, Mr David MacNeil, Mr Angus Turner, Karl Burns, rh Mr Simon George, Andrew Brendan Twigg, Derek Burrowes, Mr David Gibb, Mr Nick MacShane, rh Mr Twigg, Stephen Burstow, Paul Gilbert, Stephen Burt, Alistair Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Denis Vaz, rh Keith Burt, Lorely Glen, John Mactaggart, Fiona Vaz, Valerie Mahmood, Mr Khalid Byles, Dan Goldsmith, Zac Walley, Joan Malhotra, Seema Cable, rh Vince Goodwill, Mr Robert Watts, Mr Dave Marsden, Mr Gordon Cameron, rh Mr David Graham, Richard Whitehead, Dr Alan McCabe, Steve Campbell, Mr Gregory Grant, Mrs Helen Wicks, rh Malcolm McCann, Mr Michael Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Gray, Mr James McCarthy, Kerry Williams, Hywel Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Grayling, rh Chris McClymont, Gregg Williamson, Chris Carmichael, Neil Green, Damian McDonagh, Siobhain Wilson, Phil Carswell, Mr Douglas Greening, rh Justine McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Cash, Mr William Grieve, rh Mr Dominic McDonnell, John Woodcock, John Chishti, Rehman Griffiths, Andrew McGovern, Jim Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Clappison, Mr James Gummer, Ben McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Wright, David Clark, rh Greg Hague, rh Mr William McKechin, Ann Wright, Mr Iain Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Halfon, Robert Clegg, rh Mr Nick Hames, Duncan Question accordingly agreed to. Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hammond, rh Mr Philip Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hammond, Stephen Collins, Damian Hancock, Matthew Colvile, Oliver Hancock, Mr Mike ELECTRONIC COMMUNICATIONS Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hands, Greg That the draft Wireless Telegraphy Act 2006 (Directions to Crabb, Stephen Harper, Mr Mark OFCOM) Order, 2012, which was laid before this House on Crockart, Mike Harrington, Richard 15 December, be approved. Crouch, Tracey Harris, Rebecca 447 Deferred Divisions8 FEBRUARY 2012 Deferred Divisions 448

Hart, Simon Miller, Maria Stevenson, John Ward, Mr David Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Mills, Nigel Stewart, Bob Watkinson, Angela Heald, Oliver Milton, Anne Stewart, Iain Weatherley, Mike Heath, Mr David Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Stewart, Rory Webb, Steve Heaton-Harris, Chris Moore, rh Michael Stride, Mel Weir, Mr Mike Hemming, John Mordaunt, Penny Stunell, Andrew Wharton, James Henderson, Gordon Morgan, Nicky Sturdy, Julian Wheeler, Heather Hendry, Charles Morris, Anne Marie Swales, Ian White, Chris Herbert, rh Nick Morris, David Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Whittingdale, Mr John Hermon, Lady Morris, James Swinson, Jo Wiggin, Bill Hinds, Damian Mosley, Stephen Swire, rh Mr Hugo Williams, Mr Mark Hoban, Mr Mark Mowat, David Syms, Mr Robert Williams, Roger Hollingbery, George Mulholland, Greg Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Williams, Stephen Hopkins, Kris Mundell, rh David Teather, Sarah Williamson, Gavin Horwood, Martin Murray, Sheryll Timpson, Mr Edward Willott, Jenny Howell, John Murrison, Dr Andrew Tomlinson, Justin Wilson, Mr Rob Hughes, rh Simon Neill, Robert Tredinnick, David Wilson, Sammy Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Newmark, Mr Brooks Truss, Elizabeth Wishart, Pete Hunter, Mark Newton, Sarah Uppal, Paul Wollaston, Dr Sarah Huppert, Dr Julian Nokes, Caroline Vara, Mr Shailesh Wright, Jeremy Hurd, Mr Nick Nuttall, Mr David Vickers, Martin Wright, Simon Jackson, Mr Stewart Offord, Mr Matthew Walker, Mr Charles Yeo, Mr Tim James, Margot Ollerenshaw, Eric Walker, Mr Robin Young, rh Sir George Javid, Sajid Osborne, rh Mr George Walter, Mr Robert Zahawi, Nadhim Jenkin, Mr Bernard Ottaway, Richard Johnson, Gareth Paice, rh Mr James NOES Johnson, Joseph Parish, Neil Jones, Andrew Patel, Priti Abbott, Ms Diane Cryer, John Jones, Mr David Paterson, rh Mr Owen Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Cunningham, Mr Jim Jones, Mr Marcus Pawsey, Mark Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Cunningham, Tony Kelly, Chris Penrose, John Ali, Rushanara Curran, Margaret Kirby, Simon Percy, Andrew Allen, Mr Graham Dakin, Nic Knight, rh Mr Greg Perry, Claire Anderson, Mr David Danczuk, Simon Kwarteng, Kwasi Phillips, Stephen Ashworth, Jonathan David, Mr Wayne Laing, Mrs Eleanor Pincher, Christopher Bailey, Mr Adrian Davies, Geraint Lamb, Norman Poulter, Dr Daniel Bain, Mr William De Piero, Gloria Lancaster, Mark Prisk, Mr Mark Balls, rh Ed Denham, rh Mr John Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Pritchard, Mark Barron, rh Mr Kevin Dobbin, Jim Laws, rh Mr David Pugh, John Bayley, Hugh Dobson, rh Frank Lee, Jessica Raab, Mr Dominic Beckett, rh Margaret Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Leech, Mr John Randall, rh Mr John Begg, Dame Anne Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Lefroy, Jeremy Reckless, Mark Bell, Sir Stuart Doran, Mr Frank Leigh, Mr Edward Redwood, rh Mr John Benn, rh Hilary Dowd, Jim Leslie, Charlotte Rees-Mogg, Jacob Benton, Mr Joe Dromey, Jack Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Reid, Mr Alan Berger, Luciana Dugher, Michael Lewis, Brandon Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Betts, Mr Clive Durkan, Mark Lewis, Dr Julian Robertson, Angus Blackman-Woods, Roberta Eagle, Maria Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Robertson, Mr Laurence Blenkinsop, Tom Edwards, Jonathan Lilley, rh Mr Peter Rosindell, Andrew Blunkett, rh Mr David Efford, Clive Lloyd, Stephen Rudd, Amber Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Elliott, Julie Long, Naomi Ruffley, Mr David Brennan, Kevin Ellman, Mrs Louise Lopresti, Jack Russell, Sir Bob Brown, Lyn Engel, Natascha Lord, Jonathan Rutley, David Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Esterson, Bill Loughton, Tim Sanders, Mr Adrian Brown, Mr Russell Evans, Chris Lucas, Caroline Sandys, Laura Bryant, Chris Farrelly, Paul Luff, Peter Scott, Mr Lee Burden, Richard Fitzpatrick, Jim Lumley, Karen Selous, Andrew Campbell, Mr Alan Flello, Robert Macleod, Mary Shannon, Jim Campbell, Mr Ronnie Flint, rh Caroline Main, Mrs Anne Shapps, rh Grant Caton, Martin Fovargue, Yvonne Maude, rh Mr Francis Sharma, Alok Chapman, Mrs Jenny Francis, Dr Hywel May, rh Mrs Theresa Shelbrooke, Alec Clark, Katy Gapes, Mike Maynard, Paul Shepherd, Mr Richard Clarke, rh Mr Tom Gilmore, Sheila McCartney, Jason Simpson, David Clwyd, rh Ann Glindon, Mrs Mary McCartney, Karl Simpson, Mr Keith Coaker, Vernon Goggins, rh Paul McCrea, Dr William Skidmore, Chris Coffey, Ann Goodman, Helen McIntosh, Miss Anne Smith, Miss Chloe Connarty, Michael Greatrex, Tom McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Smith, Henry Cooper, Rosie Green, Kate McPartland, Stephen Smith, Julian Cooper, rh Yvette Greenwood, Lilian McVey, Esther Soubry, Anna Corbyn, Jeremy Griffith, Nia Mensch, Louise Spencer, Mr Mark Crausby, Mr David Gwynne, Andrew Menzies, Mark Stanley, rh Sir John Creasy, Stella Hain, rh Mr Peter Metcalfe, Stephen Stephenson, Andrew Cruddas, Jon Hamilton, Mr David 449 Deferred Divisions8 FEBRUARY 2012 Deferred Divisions 450

Hamilton, Fabian Lazarowicz, Mark Murphy, rh Mr Jim Spellar, rh Mr John Hanson, rh Mr David Leslie, Chris Murphy, rh Paul Straw, rh Mr Jack Harman, rh Ms Harriet Lloyd, Tony Murray, Ian Stuart, Ms Gisela Harris, Mr Tom Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Onwurah, Chi Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Havard, Mr Dai MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Osborne, Sandra Tami, Mark Healey, rh John MacShane, rh Mr Denis Owen, Albert Thornberry, Emily Hepburn, Mr Stephen Mactaggart, Fiona Pearce, Teresa Timms, rh Stephen Heyes, David Mahmood, Mr Khalid Perkins, Toby Trickett, Jon Hillier, Meg Malhotra, Seema Reynolds, Jonathan Turner, Karl Hilling, Julie Marsden, Mr Gordon Riordan, Mrs Linda Twigg, Derek Hodgson, Mrs Sharon McCabe, Steve Robertson, John Twigg, Stephen Howarth, rh Mr George McCann, Mr Michael Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Vaz, rh Keith Irranca-Davies, Huw McCarthy, Kerry Rotheram, Steve Vaz, Valerie James, Mrs Siân C. McClymont, Gregg Roy, Lindsay Walley, Joan Jamieson, Cathy McDonagh, Siobhain Ruane, Chris Watts, Mr Dave Jarvis, Dan McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Whitehead, Dr Alan Johnson, rh Alan McDonnell, John Sarwar, Anas Wicks, rh Malcolm Johnson, Diana McGovern, Jim Seabeck, Alison Jones, Graham McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Sheridan, Jim Williams, Hywel Jones, Helen McKechin, Ann Shuker, Gavin Williamson, Chris Jones, Mr Kevan Michael, rh Alun Skinner, Mr Dennis Wilson, Phil Jones, Susan Elan Miliband, rh Edward Slaughter, Mr Andy Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Jowell, rh Tessa Miller, Andrew Smith, rh Mr Andrew Woodcock, John Joyce, Eric Morden, Jessica Smith, Angela Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Smith, Nick Wright, David Keeley, Barbara Morris, Grahame M. Smith, Owen Wright, Mr Iain Khan, rh Sadiq (Easington) Lammy, rh Mr David Mudie, Mr George Question accordingly agreed to. Lavery, Ian Munn, Meg

73WH 8 FEBRUARY 2012 British Exports 74WH

As far back as 1961, parliamentarians were expressing Westminster Hall concern about those trends. In a debate, the Earl of Bessborough said—this may sound familiar to hon. Members— Wednesday 8 February 2012 “We live on an island, and the concept of exporting does not come easily to the people as a whole; nor does the man in the street recognise that we live or die by our international trade. To [MR ANDREW TURNER in the Chair] overcome this it has seemed to many of us that there must be support for a national crusade to excite the spirit, to revivify and British Exports stimulate every facet—I repeat, every facet—of the export drive.”— [Official Report, House of Lords, 22 March 1961; Vol. 229, Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting c. 1155.] be now adjourned.—(Stephen Crabb.) They don’t make ’em like that any more. I love the word “revivify,” but unfortunately all that sounds a bit too 9.30 am familiar. David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con): Good morning, Not so long ago, we could boast a truly diverse Mr Turner. It is an honour and a pleasure to serve international trade base. In 1910, our exports to India under your chairmanship. It is also an honour to have and China took up 11% of our traded goods. Today, secured today’s debate. I am grateful to Mr Speaker for that is 4%. Our challenge is to drive up much-needed selecting the subject, because I think it will provide an exports, and to rediscover Britain’s trading talent. important opportunity for hon. Members to discuss matters that are critical to our economy and growth Mike Weatherley (Hove) (Con): I am sorry to intervene agenda. I take the opportunity to congratulate the so early. I speak as someone who owned a manufacturing Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and company that won two Queen’s Awards for Export in Skills, the hon. Member for North Norfolk (Norman the 1990s, and which exported to 49 countries around Lamb), on his recent promotion. It is good to see him the world. Does my hon. Friend agree that part of the here, and we look forward to hearing from him and the problem for small and medium-sized enterprises is the shadow Minister. I want to express my gratitude to equity gap between what the banks will lend—usually colleagues and friends for turning up at the debate up to £100,000—and what venture capitalists will lend— today. There is huge enthusiasm and energy for the over £5 million? The in-between gap is the problem. subject, and I am sure there will be some stimulating contributions. David Rutley: My hon. Friend is right. There is an I declare an interest up front. I am a member of the equity gap, and I will talk about SMEs, which are the all-party group on China, and I will explain why that is main thrust of my speech. From his experience, he relevant. In December, I was fortunate to go to China knows more about the problem than I do, and I welcome for the first time on the all-party group’s visit to Beijing, his intervention. Shanghai and Chengdu. It would have been difficult not There are some encouraging signs. We have seen a to be impressed by the incredible growth in that country. steady fall in our trade deficit from 4% of gross domestic I was told that 45 airports had been built in the past five product in 2007 to about 1% in early 2011, and that is years. The subway system in Shanghai, which is bigger beginning to help to rebalance the economy towards than London’s entire tube network, was built in 15 years. international trade. A recent article in The Economist In the UK, we would just about have got round to reported that there are also signs of success in the having a conversation about the possibility in that time. motor industry. It was estimated that in 2011 the UK There has been real growth. We also went to Chengdu, manufactured 1.5 million vehicles, and we exported which I confess I had never heard of before the trip. It three quarters of those. That is an important statistic, is a small, second-tier town with a population of a cool and I understand that Tata is considering expansion of 14 million and staggering growth of 63% over the past its Land Rover factory at Halewood, and that Nissan three years. will be looking to increase its production and capacity Capitalism is very much alive in China, as is growth in Sunderland. It also exports to many countries around to boot. During the week of my visit my world view the world. changed completely, and I came back with enthusiasm There is export success not only with motor vehicles for the subject of this debate. That underlines the fact and automobiles, but with life sciences. AstraZeneca that now is the time for UK plc to go east—just as manufactures many leading-edge pharmaceuticals, and China is taking forward its “go west” strategy—to try to we are seeing real success in Macclesfield where its unlock the opportunities in the vast interior as it becomes major manufacturing plant accounts for 2.2% of the exposed to wider economic development. UK’s exports, which is a huge contribution. The In terms of context, Britain has a rich history in Government’s life sciences strategy was announced in international trade. It has often been led by daring December, and sets out an approach by which we can entrepreneurs looking for new markets, but during the obtain extra focus on the sector. One aim in the strategy last half of the 20th century, British traders somehow is to create new partnerships in translational medicines lost their enthusiasm, their sense of adventure and their and biopharmaceuticals between the UK and China so pioneering spirit for searching out new opportunities. that those partnerships can enhance trade, investment, The irony is that that was at a time when the world and research and development that will help us to have economy was becoming more of a global economy. greater export success in that area. Successive Governments and businesses started to look Many hon. Members here can talk about, and will for safe options in Europe and north America, and that probably want to boast about the export success of must change. companies in their constituencies, but before they do, 75WH British Exports8 FEBRUARY 2012 British Exports 76WH

[David Rutley] aware of the opportunities, so there is a more fundamental problem. Hon. Members on both sides of the House I want to take the opportunity to do the same. When I have debated this problem for some time, but now is the was preparing for this debate and when I spoke to more time to get on and do something about it. We will talk businesses in the Macclesfield area in north-east Cheshire, about that and I am sure that the Minister will welcome it became clear that there are some real export success further contributions from hon. Members. stories. Plastic Card Services manufactures an innovative, How can we raise awareness and ambition, and the biodegradable credit card, and is seeing huge success in confidence that the hon. Member for Upper Bann Scandinavian markets. Its exports to foreign countries (David Simpson) mentioned, to reap the rewards in have risen from nothing to 25% in just a year. Over the eastern markets or, for that matter, South America? The past 10 years, Ukash, which is a provider of online Government and the business community—it is not just payment services and has received the Queen’s Award about the Government—can help SMEs to achieve for Enterprise for international trade, has increased its their aims through three areas of focus: education, trade to 50 countries. It has a completely different financing, which we have talked a bit about already, international focus from many of the SMEs that, as a and, most importantly, access to new markets and parliamentarian, I work with in Macclesfield. customers. Although there are success stories, it is important to On education, it is vital to get SMEs in touch with the come back to the challenge that has been alluded to. It best know-how on exports, and that will be one of the is to improve our export performance across the piece, most important ways to help them to gain the confidence but particularly among SMEs, which is where the challenge to want to export. UKTI has an important role to play, is most marked. A short look at the statistics shows that and its “passport to export” service gives a free capability in the UK, only one in five—25%—of SMEs export assessment to businesses, which can help them to work and are involved in international trade, compared with out how they can be better prepared for the export work the European average, which is 25%, and in Germany it they want. However, I return to the point that only is above 30%. We must make a step change. As I said, 20% of SMEs—one in five—are aware of the available the problem has existed for a while, but the size of the services. It is a huge job just to make people aware that prize is huge. If we increased the penetration of exports information is available. by our SMEs up to the European average, we would One of the most important things that needs to wipe out the trade deficit in one fell swoop. happen is a lot more business-to-business mentoring to pass on experience from one company to another. I Chris White (Warwick and Leamington) (Con): I am pleased that the CBI’s pathfinder projects, which congratulate my hon. Friend on securing the debate. He focus on mid-sized companies, are helping companies referred to China. Does he agree that with the weakness to build greater networks and opportunities. UKTI is of the eurozone market at the moment, UK Trade and building an export portal with Yell.com to connect Investment should try to focus more resources on emerging first-time exporters with businesses that have experience markets, such as south America and south-east Asia, so in the area. I know, as I am sure other hon. Members that our businesses, particularly manufacturers, have do, that lots of local businesses want to pass on their greater access to the fast-growing markets of the world? experience to other businesses. David Rutley: My hon. Friend makes an important On Monday, I wrote an incredibly well read article in point. The good news is that UKTI has in recent The Daily Telegraph, which I am sure all Members have months started to focus more efforts on emerging markets. read several times over. I cannot speak about South America, but I know that more resource in terms of headcount is being pushed Mr Iain Wright (Hartlepool) (Lab): Absolutely. into markets in China and India, which I will mention later. It is good to see the Government responding to David Rutley: Thank you. that good point. I have had great feedback from at least one constituent, but it was a good response and it is the quality, not the David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): I congratulate quantity that counts. A gentleman from Fibrevision, the hon. Gentleman on securing the debate. In a recent which creates dynamic measurement tools for textile statement, the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation yarns across many countries, particularly developing and Skills said: countries, got in touch with me to say that he would be “Securing…long-term economic growth is the Government’s retiring soon and wanted to spend time passing on his highest priority. Helping entrepreneurs export to new markets experience to others in the community, and I am going and get access to the finance they need are critical to making this to tap into that. With Lord Green’s work, there are lots a reality.” of opportunities now to hold export seminars in our Considering the Asian market is estimated to be worth constituencies, and I hope that many Members here will about $42 trillion by 2030, does the hon. Gentleman participate in such events. It is important to welcome agree that it is essential that small businesses get access the energy that Lord Green has brought to the task. He to finance and that confidence is recreated in those is doing a fantastic job as Minister for Trade and small companies? Investment, and has given a lot of focus to his task. He has been travelling tirelessly across the country to raise David Rutley: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that the profile of this work, and he deserves our support. intervention. He raises a vital point—access to finance Transferring knowledge and educating people will go has come up again as a key dimension. The sad fact is, only so far; without the finance to back it, it will be and I will mention this again later, that too many much more difficult for British business to see the companies do not even want to export and are not success that we want them to have. Let me cite a 77WH British Exports8 FEBRUARY 2012 British Exports 78WH different example to show what they are up against—or David Rutley: I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention. perhaps where we could start heading. In 2010, Germany’s She makes a very important point. Of course we need export credit agency supported SMEs in the German inward investment. We have seen success in that area market by facilitating ¤23.7 billion in exports. In the and we need to continue to see success, but now, the same year, only a small proportion of the £2.9 billion of focus needs to be on exports and driving success in that business that UK Export Finance underwrote went to area. I know that she has made important contributions SMEs. Furthermore, the CBI survey shows that SMEs in debates on the subject. and other businesses are simply not aware of the available On my visit to China, it was good to see people finance. To address the situation, UK Export Finance realising the importance of exports. We met the British will now send trade finance experts into UKTI’s regional consuls from Shanghai and from Chongqing. They are facilities and the regional network to bring the expertise getting out and starting to knock on doors. There has closer to business, which is good to see. No doubt, the been too much focus on research and, for that matter, Minister will want to respond to the concerns raised by paid-for research. I am much more interested—I think hon. Members about finance, but it comes back to that others would agree with me—in knocking on doors. awareness and building confidence. It is not only about Any of us who have been involved with business know money being available. that it is about building relationships. People do business It is good to see that the Government are also building with people, not with pieces of paper. bridges to bring the east to Britain. The Chancellor of the Exchequer’s recent announcement of greater Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): Does my co-operation between financial centres in London and hon. Friend agree that, to achieve his goal, UKTI needs Hong Kong will help the City to become a hub for the an injection of private sector talent into the organisation? Chinese renminbi currency market. It will also give That would enable it to meet some of the targets that he SMEs an advantage over the competition, because they has set. will be able to forge stronger links with the new market on their doorstep and get a step closer to customers in China. David Rutley: I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. That point is vital. It is true for many areas of Government In filling the gap in export finance, we should look interaction with businesses, but it is particularly true for not only at what is happening with the Government, but the area that we are discussing today. There is a huge at what the banks should do, because it is clear that and staggering opportunity. I think that it has been they, along with professional advisers, have a vital role calculated as being worth $43 trillion. Whatever the in encouraging confidence and building momentum number is, it is pretty big. We have to redouble our in exports and international trade. A poll of small efforts in that respect. We are certainly putting the manufacturing businesses found that 51%—just over headcount on the ground. There are 50 more people in half—believed that banks were not helping to support China and 30 more in India, but my hon. Friend makes their export ambitions. We see that lack of confidence a good point about the balance of expertise there. in other areas, but no doubt confidence in banks on this Perhaps the Minister will also reply to that, because issue needs to be improved. As the Federation for Small many of us who have had experience in the business Business has highlighted, banks need to promote better, world would suggest that it is time to get people with more tailored products to help SMEs in their export that experience involved. ambitions. Understanding the local cultures is also important. I I also welcome the Government’s allocation of have not spent a huge amount of time in China, but £45 million to promote exports in other markets. As I there are many Chinese-speaking individuals in the UK said earlier, it is important to get front-line staff working with business experience. My hon. Friend the Member in the new export markets, because what has to happen for Bedford (Richard Fuller), for example, has spent a after education and finance, is that we must roll out the lot of time in Asia. That is the type of experience that red carpet for our SMEs—make them feel welcome in we need to bring to bear to help us in this export drive. such markets and to have worthwhile trade visits, particularly in their first forays into foreign markets. Although large companies are well equipped to take on Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con): I congratulate this task, it is pretty clear that smaller businesses lack my hon. Friend on obtaining the debate. There is something the know-how, contacts and network to see success in that I do not think we understand and that certainly these endeavours, and we must support them. Government have never used to maximum effect. There For too long, UKTI and other Government bodies are 220 languages spoken by British people in this have spent too much time doing desk-based research, country. We constantly talk about the language issue, instead of getting out, knocking on doors, finding but we have people who may be the first, second or third opportunities and bringing packaged solutions to big generation from certain parts of the world and we do infrastructure problems or other projects in those markets. not use them effectively as the right cultural interface, It is great to see the Government working in that area. the right linguistic interface or, more importantly, as the people who are respected by business people in those Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): I feel like I am in an countries, as opposed to the people who do not speak exports master class, so I am enjoying everything that those languages being sent out as heads of trade missions. the hon. Gentleman says. I agree with him about the need for UKTI to get out from behind their desks and David Rutley: That is a vital point. I met a friend of knock on some doors, but does he agree that the balance mine who is a Chinese speaker and has an MBA. I do of UKTI’s recent work has been very much towards not think that she really understood the power that she bringing in inward investment, perhaps at the expense has at the moment in helping to foster export opportunities of exporting and encouraging outward investment? and to build relationships. My hon. Friend makes an 79WH British Exports8 FEBRUARY 2012 British Exports 80WH

[David Rutley] of ministerial time. I am thinking of the India-EU trade summit, Russia’s World Trade Organisation accession excellent point. I have to say that, as I think about this and the Doha development agenda. All those things are issue more and more, I increasingly wonder why our very important. I trust that, in dealing with those issues, children are learning French at school. [Interruption.] Ministers and officials will continue to focus on, and This is not meant to be an opportunity to bash— will give just as much focus to, the needs of SMEs. As [Interruption.] I think that the debate should be called today’s interventions show, that is a huge priority. to order, Mr Turner. I believe that, in the end, Britain’s SMEs must go east, so that selling in Chengdu and Chennai is just as David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con): I can assure natural as selling in Cheshire. However, that cultural my hon. Friend that I have read his article in The Daily change will not happen overnight. The Government Telegraph, as has at least one of my constituents, so that and the private sector must continue to build on the is half a dozen of us in Cheshire. The question that foundations that have been laid, so that SMEs make the interests me and that I would like to ask him is this. We full contribution that we believe they can make to our talk about France and Italy. Both France and Italy country’s growth agenda. export more per head worldwide and to the BRIC countries—Brazil, Russia, India and China—than we Several hon. Members rose— do, and they are doing that at a time when our exchange rate has depreciated by about one quarter and the Mr Andrew Turner (in the Chair): As far as I can see, Italian exchange rate has apparently been pegged to the there will be six speakers in 43 minutes. I call Nick de euro and therefore is too high. Is there not an Bois. opportunity—the Minister might also wish to respond to this—for us to think as a country about what the Italians do in this regard that we do not? 9.57 am Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con): It is a pleasure to David Rutley: It is an important point that we should speak under your chairmanship, Mr Turner. I congratulate learn from our international competitors and look at my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (David their success. We have been too complacent. We think Rutley) on securing this vital debate. I also congratulate that historical ties should automatically bring business and welcome to his post the Minister. He may be to us. Well, I think that we are waking up to the fact that interested to know that yesterday, by coincidence, I that is not the case any more—as we see—and we received an e-mail out of the blue from a very old should not rely on those historical links. I think that we girlfriend who happens to live in his constituency. Having are too lazy. I can just about speak English and have a finally realised after 18 months that I was an MP, her conversational understanding of Danish. As I was about first words were, “We have the lovely Norman Lamb.” to explain when I was so rudely interrupted by my hon. I am conscious of the time and the need for other Friends, it is vital that more of our children learn hon. Members to speak, so I shall just highlight a few Chinese at school. That has to happen. points. The recent euro debate focused on the fact—many I shall finish my speech shortly so that many of the people thought that this was a reason to tread very hon. Members present can speak, because I know that cautiously with Europe—that more than 40% of our they are enthusiastic to do so. We also need big businesses trade is with the eurozone. My argument is that that to want to include SMEs in their trade delegations. This trade is something to be respected, nurtured, looked is not only about what Government can do. Big businesses after and, of course, developed if possible, but the have to wake up and bring their supply chain in when reality is that no one would try to run a business with an they go on trade delegations to China or India. Helping over-dependence on one business partner for 40% of to increase the international attitude of SMEs is vital. their trade. Therefore, it is vital that we look elsewhere. I noted the comments of my hon. Friend the Member Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab): for Macclesfield about history. I do believe that we have Before the hon. Gentleman finishes, I want to draw his relied on history, but I feel that we have failed to attention and that of other hon. Members to a specific capitalise on a number of unique opportunities that issue. He has not mentioned the UK’s largest manufacturing reach far outside the eurozone and not just to the east. sector—food and non-alcoholic drinks. It should be put There are many countries that are growth economies on the record that, during the past six years, exports where Britain is uniquely positioned to capitalise on its have grown year on year, that, in 2011, the figure for relationships, whether through historical links, the extensive those exports hit £11 billion and that many SMEs are diaspora that we have in this country from those countries involved in that sector. or current strategic and political links. We need an analysis of where those factors merge with prevailing David Rutley: I thank the hon. Gentleman for bringing growth economies and economies that are deemed to that to our attention. It is an important area. I can say grow in the future. We should take a snapshot of how with confidence that if my hon. Friend the Member for we are doing and then realise the potential of what we Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart) is called to can do. speak, he will be raising awareness of it as well, but I Let me share one or two examples based on information thank the hon. Gentleman for calling attention to it in from the Library. Britain is one of the few EU states the debate. arguing for active support for Turkey’s membership of I know that there are huge and major trade initiatives the EU. However, the fact remains that the UK’s share that the Minister and Lord Green will be involved with of overall exports to Turkey is 1.2%, compared with in the year ahead and that will take up a huge amount Italy at 2.4%, France at 1.6% and Spain at 1.9%. If we 81WH British Exports8 FEBRUARY 2012 British Exports 82WH start to analyse where we have links that go beyond just disposal, as that will allow us to have influence and to trade, we can capitalise on that for the benefit of trade. bring delegations along, whether from prime contractors In a Commonwealth country such as India, it is surprising or from SMEs riding on the back of prime contractors. to note that we are being outperformed by the USA—that We can show companies what they can achieve and give is perhaps not so surprising—and Argentina, with Germany them the contacts. and France close behind, according to House of Commons However, more needs to be done. I welcome Lord statistics. Green’s initiative, and our job, in our country and in I have more examples, but the trend I am trying to our constituencies, is to start emphasising the opportunities highlight is that we are now forced to look outside to export, while explaining how we can offer practical Europe. There is a wealth of opportunity not just in the help. I do not want to be the same business man I was east, but in the countries that fall within the criteria that 20 years ago. When I first started, I wanted to export to I have mentioned. For example, on a recent trip as part Switzerland, although I will not bore Members with the of a delegation to Kuwait, I was intrigued to find out details. I rang the embassy for advice, and the first thing that more than 95% of the population is employed in I was told was, “The markets here are very good for ball the public sector. The country is about to embark on a bearings.” That still sticks with me as the most useless large nationalisation programme—[Interruption.] Sorry, piece of information that I received, because I could a privatisation programme—I stand corrected by the have found it out during my geography O-level all those look on the face of the hon. Member for Hartlepool long years ago. I want to feel that the Government can (Mr Wright), who clearly welcomed my mis-statement. put in place people who have worked in business and However, the UK has unique experience and expertise. who can actually help businesses to reach out, break Kuwait is embarking on major power plant construction down barriers, make contacts and sell. That, crudely, is and massive infrastructure development, and our recent what it comes down to, and that is how we can help. links with it should set us apart from many other I hope the Minister will take on board the fact that countries, given that it wants to do business with us, the Government are setting the right direction and shares a history with us and is open to our companies starting to break down doors, but let us do that consistently knocking on its door. That is a place we can look to and permanently. Relationships are not born out of one go to. visit, but out of a commitment to a region over a period How can we do that? The Government have a role to of time. We need patience, and we need to use it to help play, as do parliamentarians. What does business actually businesses to meet the cultural and business demands of want from Government? Essentially, businesses faced a variety of regions and to take on markets where we with the prospect of exporting immediately face a number are being beaten, when we should actually be streets of barriers, and I experienced them myself. Those barriers ahead. will deter even many of the most hardened and determined individuals from reaching into export markets. Although 10.6 am I support the comments of UKTI, we need to be candid and to recognise, as the CBI said in “Winning overseas” Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con): I thank my hon. in November 2011, that businesses see UKTI as having Friend the Member for Macclesfield (David Rutley) for the Marmite effect: for some, it has been absolutely securing this extremely important and prescient debate. marvellous, but for many others it has not fulfilled its In many ways, we will have a challenging time over the role or managed to match businesses’ needs with the next 10 years generating growth domestically in the UK services provided by the Government. However, that is and across the eurozone. Our international trade and something that we can improve and build on, and I refer inward investment—the responsibility of UKTI—will Members to the CBI’s document, which I found extremely be crucial in ensuring that we keep ahead of the game constructive and helpful. and deliver growth for the UK. From the Government, we are now seeing a commitment My experience is pretty varied. In many ways, I was a to leading trade delegations and opening doors in regions very small exporter. I have worked for the Peruvian that have been ignored, and the Gulf countries are a Government and the Georgian Government, and I had good example. However, we cannot do these things an office in Istanbul. I also did quite a lot of work in through just one visit; we have to maintain a consistent, Africa and central Asia. I have therefore seen a lot of permanent and ongoing relationship, and I welcome these issues from the UK, the intrepid traveller and the Lord Green’s work, as it is a major start. With all due travelling salesman perspective, arriving in a country respect, however, there is a wealth of talent across the and not necessarily knowing who the key players were Lords and the Commons that should be put to use in or how to make things happen. helping consistently to develop regions at a lower level. If we are to support the system, there are probably That should be done in a way that carries with it the three big challenges that need to be met by the Government, respect and authority not only of the individual’s heritage, as well as by large exporters, as my hon. Friend the but of the country that is opening its doors to them, as Member for Enfield North (Nick de Bois) rightly said. it sees them conscientiously rebuilding relationships. One is getting more SMEs to think about exporting. Let us be candid: when we get to these other countries, The initiative developed by Lord Green and my hon. we will need to break down the barriers to exports. We Friend the Member for Stourbridge (Margot James), as politicians can reduce some of those barriers, such as which sees us, as constituency MPs, generating interest customs and complicated legislation, in ways others in exports, is crucial. cannot; we can fight our corner and support British There is, however, something interesting about how companies. We also need to bring in contacts. I would we look at exporting, particularly in relation to SMEs. be proud to say that I am a salesman for Britain and Everybody I speak to says they are going to do an that I am opening doors by using the levers at our export mission and to take people out to country X, Y 83WH British Exports8 FEBRUARY 2012 British Exports 84WH

[Laura Sandys] to bring their supply chain with them? That is not just on trips, but as part of the overall offering. In many or Z. Very few people say that the most important thing ways, it is a little bit of a waste of our resources when for an SME is not going abroad, but having the first sale we have big trade missions and we take Rolls-Royce and abroad or the first inquiry from somebody who is quite BAE Systems and all these fantastic companies. They interested in their product. The internet is a big platform can afford the air fare. They already have operations for that. I spoke to UKTI on Monday, and I was a little based in these countries. If they led a trade mission that concerned that it was not looking at helping SMEs to had their full supply chain and their full level of SMEs translate one or two of their webpages into two or three and medium-sized manufacturers, I can see why we different languages. That is very simple; people do not would be doing it. We have, however, to start focusing need to get on a plane or to do market testing. SMEs on delivering, as the Germans do, in that middle market could also put their price list into euros and include of entrepreneurs, giving them the confidence, ensuring export duties for three or four different markets that that we are out there making the business contacts and might be useful for their product. We can do a lot securing the confidence that those SMEs need, because without getting the SMEs to take that leap of faith—to they are our best advert for recruiting new SMEs. jump on that plane or pay UKTI to organise an event. I welcome what the Government are doing. There is a The other issue with it, which people, and particularly new emphasis and a new impetus, but let us use the Government, do not understand about small businesses, assets that we have and let us get out there and sell and is that time is money. If I have to spend three or four know that selling is a grubby, but very important and days in a market where I do not know anybody and I do worthy business. Sometimes Governments do not necessarily not know whether it will be successful and I have three enjoy getting involved at that sharp end. or four customers back in the UK or in Ireland, where will I put my focus? Let us start helping these smaller companies market-test. The internet is a good way. 10.14 am There are brochures and there are different ways of us Mr Robert Syms (Poole) (Con): First, I welcome the doing this, but let us not always think that we have to Minister to his post. We look forward to what he has to send people out for those initial stages. say later. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (David Rutley) on securing an important Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con): My hon. Friend is debate. We do not talk about these issues enough in this making a powerful point, but we do have to send people House. It is vital to the future of our country that we get out to these developing countries at certain times. If we out and sell both manufactured goods and the services are going to capitalise on the BRIC countries and some that we produce, because that is the only way that we of the other developing markets that people have talked will remain a first-class economy. about, must we not improve our aviation links? If we do Poole, although it is a place with sandy beaches and is not, there is a danger that we will lose out to central pleasant to live in, has a lot of industrial estates and a Europe on this. lot of small companies that are successful. It has a large number of people employed in manufacturing. When I Laura Sandys: My hon. Friend has a good point. Of go around, all the companies that are involved in exports course one has to encourage people to go abroad. One seem to be very busy. If the trade figures have not also has to encourage them to understand how these turned yet, I am sure that at some point they will. All countries work in terms of culture and not just language. the evidence that I see on the ground is that the devaluation Experience in these countries is crucial. My hon. Friend’s and the rebalancing is taking place and will eventually point about aviation is well made and has been made show results. particularly in relation to China, where we do not have One of my biggest companies is Sunseeker, which those links and where we have to go to Europe to access employs nearly 2,000 people. It exports nearly all the some of those growing markets. yachts that it produces. There are not many people in The second point I want to make is about the cultural this country who can afford a £20 million, £30 million side. I cannot emphasise it enough: there are 220 languages or £40 million yacht. It is a great exporter. We have already spoken in this country. People already have companies such as Siemens, which, although it came in these links. In this country, there are small and medium-sized for some criticism recently on the rail contract, is a great companies that are run by people who have cousins, British company. It may be German-owned, but it has relatives, uncles and aunts who have equivalent companies been in this country for a century and in terms of in the countries of their origin. We are not using that. exports and investment is important to the UK. Siemens We are trying to expend a lot of money teaching a lot of in Poole exports to China, the United States and all the fantastically able Foreign Office officials lots of different way around the world. It produces a lot of the technology languages, but we already have the languages in this for the congestion zone and a lot of signalling technology country and we have the business communications. and it is cutting edge. There is a whole array of businesses. Having been in small business myself, I know that small I want to pick up on a few concerns. There is an businesses have a similar language around the world. I equity gap. There are some small successful companies would possibly find it easier to talk to a small business that want to grow and they face a dilemma: they either in China than a scientist in England. We understand have to sell, or, if they do not sell and remain owned by each other; we have the same rhythm. Please, let us use their existing directors, they cannot raise the equity or the assets that we have. the loans from banks to be able to expand. I have come The third point, which in many ways has been covered across a number of companies in Poole that say that by my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield North, but they could double or treble their turnover—a lot of it which is also crucial, is: are we incentivising large exporters by export—but they cannot raise sufficient funds from 85WH British Exports8 FEBRUARY 2012 British Exports 86WH the banks. That is the main area where they are being in Northern Ireland we produce some good robots for held back. It is not that they cannot sell the products; it doing that. That company exports all the way around is that they cannot raise the capital. That is a big issue. the world. I said to the managing director, “You’ve asked me to visit your company. I’m impressed with Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): I welcome this debate. what you do. Do you have a message for me to take Does my hon. Friend agree that the business growth back to the Government?” He said, “Yes, it’s the export fund—not the regional growth fund—set up by the licence regime. It’s frustrating. We find it difficult. We banks precisely to put equity into such businesses should can’t find out what’s going on and there are occasions look at companies that are slightly smaller than the when sometimes we lose exports.” current benchmark? There are plenty of businesses My main message for the Minister is this: being new employing 30 or 40 people which could double their to his post, will he please go back and have a look at this employment and vastly increase turnover if they had area and see whether we can make it a little more access to that particular fund, where the limit is currently efficient? Perhaps we could, at least, have a card system set a little high. so that people can know when they will get a decision. The most frustrating thing is when people have an order Mr Syms: My hon. Friend makes a good point. We for a good product but find that the Government are still need to zero in on the small growing companies to not getting on with the process of licensing it when it see how we can help them with equity and loans. should be properly licensed. Anecdotally, people think The other thing is the supply chain. When one hears that, since the Arab spring, the Foreign Office has got a of a big export order that requires offset, that often lot more involved in exports, which has made things means British suppliers down the line losing the ability a lot worse. to supply a big export order. What frustrates many We have some great British companies and some small companies in my constituency is trying to get on enterprising people. Going around the world, people the tender list of Rolls-Royce and British Aerospace. I will find some Scotsman on top of a mountain trying to went to see one company that was convinced it had the sell British products. The reality is, though, that if we best product at the best price, but it could not get could do what we do well a little bit better, we could get Rolls-Royce to buy its product. Rolls-Royce bought a better outcomes. German product and that same company beat the German company to supply the Germans with the same product. Mr Andrew Turner (in the Chair): There is six minutes That was supplying the air tanker project in Germany. for each speaker if Lorely Burt takes over. It was that frustration. We need a speed-dating process, so that small companies can marry up with British 10.22 am Aerospace and Rolls-Royce, which have been tremendously successful, to see whether we can supply some of these Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): I will adhere to that, big companies, which are used to getting their supplies Mr Turner. from all over the world when there are people in Poole, I congratulate the hon. Member for Macclesfield Macclesfield and, no doubt, Penrith who could produce (David Rutley) on securing this important debate and the goods. There could be a degree of import substitution, my hon. Friend the Minister on his elevation; I am sure simply because we marry up British skills and British that he will make a brilliant Minister. companies. That needs to be considered. I think that the need for growth is driving every hon. The other area I want to touch on, which affects a lot Member in this Chamber. Growth is the engine that will of companies in Poole, where we have communications get us out of the financial difficulties that we were left in and quite a lot of military stuff, is the licensing regime when we came into coalition government. I attended for exports. I get a lot of moans from British companies a Federation of Small Businesses dinner last night at when they have to go through the export licensing which our Chancellor was speaking. He talked about process. The difficulty is that it goes into Whitehall and the importance of exports and the key role of small weeks go by. It is difficult when someone is trying to businesses in driving exports. Small businesses have a promise the person they are supplying a delivery date pivotal role to play in leading the recovery, because they for a product and they do not know what is going on. I are flexible and responsive to changing circumstances think that the Government need to go back and look at and to opportunities, which can arise even in difficult this. Of course we must have proper safeguards and times. licences for some of the equipment that we export, but I am proud of this coalition Government’s approach at the moment I am not sure that the system is helping to international trade. I am told that no Minister is those exporters. allowed out of the country without a trade brief in his Northey Technologies, a local company in Poole, was or her briefcase. It is important to recognise the value of supplying the Chinese nuclear programme and had two emerging markets, not just our traditional European export orders approved, but the third, for an identical trading partners: in parts of Europe there are a lot of product that they were selling, was held up for three or opportunities, but in other parts it is not so good. four months while the Government decided what assurances Colleagues have mentioned China, India and Brazil, they needed. I repeat that the third order was identical which are important areas that we need to exploit. to the first two, which were approved. Eventually, the UKTI provides a wide range of help and services to Chinese went elsewhere. business. A number of colleagues have mentioned small The other day I visited AB engineering, another great business help and the need for more of it. On export local company in Poole, which produces robots for credit guarantees, I would much prefer to see the help defusing bombs—one of two companies in the UK going to small companies rather than to some of our producing those. Of course, because of our experience larger companies—perhaps those that are selling quite a 87WH British Exports8 FEBRUARY 2012 British Exports 88WH

[Lorely Burt] The 2010 figures, according to the Library, show us at 29% of GDP, Italy at 27% and France at 25%. However, number of arms at the moment. For example, why not those figures are just the surface, beneath which we have extend the supplier credit finance facility to small a culture in this country, developed over many years, businesses—the guarantee to a bank for a loan for sums which means that many young people do not even larger than £25,000? consider going into business, let alone the export sector. We could do more. The hon. Member for Macclesfield There have been other debates, both here and in other has already mentioned that we do not punch at our parts of the Palace of Westminster, about that culture, weight in respect of exports, compared with other European and I believe that part of the problem is cultural. countries. There are things that we can do. Consider I am sure that if I were to go to the equivalent of a UKTI, for example. The hon. Gentleman talked about Watfordian sixth form in Germany and ask, “Who getting people out from behind their desks and knocking wants either to go into their family business or to start on the doors of local businesses. I berated the regional up a business?” the number of young people answering, development agencies for being far too insular and “It’s business for me,” particularly with exports in mind, expecting small business to come to them. The whole would be significantly higher than in Britain. Very few emphasis must change. We must be far more outward of our contemporaries at Oxford, Mr Turner, went into looking and inclusive. business, and I am sure that very few people nowadays I was particularly impressed by the hon. Member for even think about that. At university, people are pushed South Thanet (Laura Sandys) talking about the internet. towards professions and careers such as ours—to which It is so obvious, but we do not often talk about that as a I am a recent recruit, in later life—which, good or bad, mechanism for encouraging and enabling exports, certainly do not benefit the economy or assist growth in particularly for small businesses. the rest of the country in the same way as being in a The hon. Member for Poole (Mr Syms) mentioned business, particularly an export-led one, does. The issue speed dating. Why not have business-to-business mentoring? is very much a cultural one. I mean speed dating in the strictly business sense, of One learns to take things as one finds them, and in course. Perhaps I am just compounding my error. I will my travels, both in my constituency and abroad, I have change the subject quickly. We can do a lot of things. found UKTI to be of almost no help whatsoever to Our local enterprise partnerships can help as well, as prospective exporters. I will give just one example, can the chambers of commerce. because time is limited. A few weeks ago I was asked to Manufacturing is playing and will continue to play a go to Mainz, a town in Germany that is twinned with key role in exports and in attracting inward investment, Watford—obviously Watford in many ways is far superior because we have all the tools and abilities in this country. to Mainz, or to anywhere else in the world, but for some The coalition Government are seeking to rebalance reason it is twinned with it. I spoke there at an inward the economy. The west midlands, which is my area, is investment conference about investment in Hertfordshire. excellent at high-end, advanced manufacturing. Sadly, I was very embarrassed that the UKTI rep in Mainz—which manufacturing shrank under the previous Labour is obviously not in the middle of Africa—did not even Government from 20% to 12% of our gross domestic speak German. I found that absolutely appalling. When product. That is shameful. I questioned Lord Green, for example, at a recent Conservative China group breakfast, he could not even We have major export opportunities. The hon. Member say what exports we make to China. for Macclesfield mentioned Jaguar Land Rover. Automotive is our No. 1 manufacturing export. Jaguar Land Rover Whatever the Government say, there is no real hardcore has already expanded its Solihull plant and the i54 plant business culture in this country as far as exports are and it is taking on 1,000 people. There are a great concerned. Yes, everyone tries—politicians, the previous number of things that we can do. We have aerospace, Government, this Government. The Foreign Secretary chemicals, agri-food and energy, so it is up to us to have makes speeches saying that we are going to turn the a multifaceted approach to ensure that all of us—Members Foreign Office into an organisation that supports business. of Parliament and every facet of Government, as well It is nonsense. On recent visits to five African countries as employers’ bodies—work together to increase that with the International Development Committee, I asked emphasis and ensure that small businesses, particularly, the ambassadors who the main importers into those get their fair share of the pie. countries from Britain were, and they did not know. Our ambassador to Burundi, which is a small country 10.28 am with a very small population, said that there was almost no British trade there, and so I had to tell him that one Richard Harrington (Watford) (Con): I had hoped to of my constituents, who is also a friend, exported be called earlier, Mr Turner, by currying favour with products there. The culture exists in the minds of politicians you on the basis that I was at college with you some and some other people, but the reality is very different. 35 years ago, but I was disappointed. However, I am People do very well in business in this country without delighted to be called now. even considering exports. Exporting is not part of the I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for culture. I accept the points that Members have made Macclesfield (David Rutley) on securing this interesting about the credit and equity gaps, and about financing. debate. I shall keep my comments to two points, because That is all well and good, but there is no burning desire we are short of time. to export. The view is it is very difficult, and hard to On the export market generally, on the face of it, our make money out of—it is just not in our psyche. performance is not as bad as it appears. For example, There are exceptions. My good friend and fellow our exports as a percentage of GDP, if invisibles are Watfordian, Dr Rami Ranger, has a business called Sun included, are much the same as France’s and Germany’s. Mark Ltd, which exports to 160 countries. Despite all 89WH British Exports8 FEBRUARY 2012 British Exports 90WH the talk of our lack of efforts in the BRIC countries—Brazil, of short-term energy from individual British Governments, Russia, India and China—he has recently exported his but about decades of lack of focus. The reason that Bullet energy drink to such countries as Venezuela, countries even such as the Netherlands are well ahead Honduras, Belize and Surinam. He is the Burundi man, of us in their trade with Brazil, and why Germany, the Rwanda man—he exports to 160 countries. He has France and Italy are doing better than us, goes all the not even heard of UKTI. He does not need to go to way back to French investment in and support for the seminars held by Lord Green, or anything like that, first universities in Brazil and German investment in its because he is someone of Indian origin who thinks first industrial plants in the early 20th century. We have internationally and is used to driving for business and already heard about Italian success in Turkey, and that exports, despite the obstacles put in his way by the 50% considerable success—Italy is a long way ahead of tax, national insurance and everything else. He is loyal Britain in trade with Turkey—has been built up over to this country. He could locate his company anywhere decades, since the first Fiat investments in the 1960s, in the world but he has it in Britain, and we need a lot and it means that there are now 18 flights a day from more of that kind of thing. Milan into Turkey, and an enormous range of small Our international development efforts are very and medium-sized Italian businesses on the ground in a commendable, and are supported by both sides of the way that our businesses are not. If Britain is now to be House, but because of tied aid, which used to be something serious about that kind of thing, we need to do three whereby arms were sold from countries that gave aid, things. We need to look at unexpected countries, look at there is a fear on the part of the Department for unexpected products, and change the culture of UKTI. International Development of getting British companies Regarding unexpected countries, a focus on BRIC involved in its activities, when there are perfectly benign countries might turn out to be a bit misguided in the contracts all over the world for cars, agricultural products long run, and in a sense we have missed the boat, I am and so on—so many worthy things. I am sure that it is afraid, with countries such as Brazil. However, one against European law to show favouritism to British reason that we cannot become so centred on insulting companies, and it would not be the right thing to do, the Foreign Office and demanding privatisation and a but there is no mechanism whereby our companies are commercial focus is that often our diplomatic missions informed, encouraged and invited to tender. Why do we turn out, in the long run, to be very useful. buy 100 Toyota Land Cruisers in Africa, without even Take, for example, Mongolia. There was huge pressure pushing British companies to bid? 15 years ago to close our embassy in Mongolia, with Everywhere we go with the International Development people saying, “Why do we bother having an ambassador Committee—other members of the Committee are here there? Who cares about Mongolia?” and then the country today—we see so much money being spent. I am not turned out to have an extraordinary range of assets— saying that we should have favouritism, but there is no natural resources—which are about to make it the real feeling that this is British taxpayers’ money, and we country with perhaps the largest gross domestic product have to try to help British companies, providing the per capita in that entire area of Asia. Our diplomatic objective is right, that money is not spent where it network, therefore, is partly an investment in low-probability, should not be, and that it is not more expensive. These high-impact events, exactly such as that one. The investment things have to link together, and that is what I ask the is, as some people have pointed out, less than our Minister to consider—it is what the Government should investment in the winter fuel allowance, and it pays be doing. We are proud of our international development itself off again and again through such unexpected efforts, but they should be linked to trade in the nicest opportunities. The same, if I were to be bold, could be possible way. extended to a whole series of peculiar countries. The Falkland Islands, if they continue to discover 500 million barrels of oil in the northern reaches, seem set to 10.35 am become a sort of Dubai with penguins. Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) (Con): I Those are extraordinary opportunities for us, and we thank my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield might take them even further. It is not just about (David Rutley) for securing this debate. second-tier countries such as Indonesia; we should even I want to touch briefly, in a very short time, on the be looking at countries such as Pakistan. We tend to see ramping criticism of UKTI and the British Government. Pakistan simply as a failed state, but it is a potential The point is, of course, that the situation of British market, within the next generation, of 300 million people exports is extremely complex. Germany is doing well with an extraordinary focus on IT. Of course, we also not because the German diplomatic service is far better have 1.5 million British people of Pakistani origin who than the British one. In fact, the German diplomatic can help us trade there. service is in many ways not half as well supported or Places such as Cumbria show us the astonishing prestigious within the German administrative system as range of unexpected products that we have. Innovia in the British one is. Nevertheless, there are some small Wigton, with 1,000 employees, exports 90% of its products. things I believe we could do to improve our exports. We We have Steadmans, designing glittering gold roofs for do not have a silver bullet. No consul-general in Istanbul the Bahrain air show. We have people making forges in will alone be able to double UK trade and investment Alston winning Queen’s export awards and people selling with Turkey by 2015, but it is important to understand used photocopiers to China. We sell gluten-free food what we can and cannot do with this funny network of products into the Balkans. embassies. Let me finish with sheep. The agricultural export We first must understand that the business of trade, market is massively untapped, and that is exactly where at least regarding the embassies, is very long term. an embassy can be useful. The reason that our sheep are Britain’s calamitous failure in Brazil is not about a lack not in Saudi Arabia is not that New Zealand is 91WH British Exports8 FEBRUARY 2012 British Exports 92WH

[Rory Stewart] We have much to be proud of, but we cannot be complacent in this modern, competitive world. We cannot outcompeting us but that we have been denied health say that our exports have performed to their full potential certificates throughout the middle eastern market. It is in the post-war era. Given the intense competition of an enormous market. The Arab appetite for sheep is this arms race—I do not think that that is too strong a almost unstoppable. Britain is just beginning to go into term, considering the issue’s importance and intensity— surplus. Our sheep industry employs 130,000 people. Britain needs to compete with optimum efficiency. Agricultural exports should be a good example. I agree with the CBI when it says: The key to all those opportunities in unexpected “We are not alone in seeking growth through exports—other products and markets is the energy and culture in advanced economies are facing similar constraints and are looking UKTI, in order to give people the drive and leadership to boost their export performance. We cannot spend another to want to explore those opportunities. We in Britain decade simply playing catch-up: we need to be bigger and bolder should look back not at our Victorian past but at our in our ambitions.” Elizabethan past, when a buccaneering, trading, earring- The CBI concludes: wearing rogue state took its goods all the way around “We are not being ambitious enough with our choice of the world. markets and our decline in goods exports is unsustainable if we want to lead an export-orientated economic recovery.” It has been mentioned that the UK is far too dependent 10.41 am on traditional, slow-growing economies. Some two-thirds of all UK exports go to the US and the EU, but in the Mr Iain Wright (Hartlepool) (Lab): It is a pleasure to next decade, those markets will probably not grow at serve under your chairmanship, Mr Turner. This debate all. There has been much talk of balancing the economy. is important, and I congratulate the hon. Member for I hope that the House would agree that it is necessary to Macclesfield (David Rutley). I have a lot of affection for rebalance trade policy towards new and emerging Macclesfield. My big hero is Ian Curtis of the band Joy companies. Division, who lived, died and is buried in Macclesfield. I stress that exports and trade policy do not operate I also congratulate the Minister on his new position. I in a domestic or an international vacuum. We cannot wish him well in his role. Given the turnover of Liberal consider exports and trade performance in isolation Democrat Ministers, I am confident that he will be from the rest of Government policy.I urge the Government Secretary of State by Christmas. to implement an active, co-ordinated industrial strategy. Today’s debate has shown that there are huge I fear that we are a long way from that at the moment, opportunities for British export, but that we do not tap but everything that the Government do must be considered into our full potential. The world’s economy is expected in terms of its impact on our trade performance. to double in size by 2050. Much of this debate has The Government’s economic policy is having an effect focused on BRIC countries. There is some scope to on business confidence and growth. The business confidence expand our opportunities into BRIC countries, especially index published this week shows that confidence in as China moves from an export-led production and negative territory. By all accounts, we are back in official manufacturing model towards internal domestic recession. Turnover is depressed, there are no export consumption, but I think that the second tier—the N11 growth areas and exports are not bouncing to take up or next 11 countries such as Indonesia, Turkey, South the slack left by subdued domestic demand. I hope that Korea, Nigeria and Vietnam—are exactly where we the Government will address that. need to focus. I agree with the hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart) that we have often David Mowat: The shadow Minister is discussing the missed the boat. We need to be at the forefront of trade present lack of industrial policy. In the decade between with N11 countries. 2000 and 2010, we went from being the fifth biggest The UK has world-class sectors. Our automotive exporter in the world to being the 13th, way behind sector, which has been mentioned, contributes about countries such as Italy. In his judgment, why did that £40 billion of turnover, and 80% of its production is happen? exported. The oil and gas sector, which is strong in my area, exports about £32 billion of goods, services and Mr Wright: That is a consequence of the world project management skills. Just this morning, I was at a growing in different ways and a symptom of the long-term breakfast meeting with ADS. The UK aerospace, defence decline in our export performance. As I said, we need to and security sector exports about 70% of its output, or make a concerted effort to do something about it. Many about £23 billion of products. The quality, reliability of the invisibles kept up well during that decade and and innovation of those products are seen throughout levels stayed similar. However, the thrust of my argument the world, and we should be proud of them. is that we need to raise our game. However, this is not just about traditional manufacturing Every Minister—not just Business Ministers—and sectors. The UK video games and interactive entertainment every aspect of Whitehall should be charged with promoting sector is worth £3 billion to the national economy at the British exports, but all too often, policies are not joined moment, and global demand is expected to rise by up. The immigration cap indicates that Britain does not about 10% year on year. We lead the world in that want to act as a beacon for the world’s best and brightest, sector. “Batman: Arkham City”, produced by Rocksteady and there is a perception among foreign businesses that Studios in north London, sold 2 million copies in its it will act as a brake on export growth. first week of release. No CD or record—not even by Joy Aviation policy was mentioned. A recent report suggests Division—has ever achieved that. We should be exploiting that a lack of direct flights from the UK to emerging it as much as possible. markets might be costing our economy £1.2 billion a 93WH British Exports8 FEBRUARY 2012 British Exports 94WH year in lost trade. Firms naturally trade where there are the 21st century in relation to the expanding global good and co-ordinated transport links. In my area of economy. The Minister is fresh in office and could make the north-east, the Emirates service between Newcastle his mark by ensuring a competitive and co-ordinated and Dubai has tripled trade between the two areas in policy across the Government and with business, so that the four years since it started. The hon. Member for we can sell British goods and services across the world, Macclesfield mentioned Chengdu. There are no direct thereby creating jobs and wealth for this country. flights from the UK to Chengdu, but there should be. British Airways does not run a service from the UK to Seoul in South Korea, although I admit that other 10.52 am carriers do. The Government should work closely with airlines to address that. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Norman Lamb): I thank hon. I turn to last week’s disappointing announcement Members for their kind good wishes, including the that the Indian Government might place an order for encouraging words from my own constituent—it was a fighter jets with French manufacturer Dassault, rather relief to hear them—quoted by the hon. Member for than with Eurofighter Typhoon, in which the British Enfield North (Nick de Bois). I congratulate the hon. BAE Systems plays a huge part. The Prime Minister Member for Macclesfield (David Rutley) on securing paid a lot of political capital with regard to that. The this important debate. He made some incredibly important Opposition do not want to do anything to compromise points and focused in particular on the role of small the deal. We will support the Government in ensuring and medium-sized enterprises. It is critical to address that Britain can be successful, and we think that there is how we can get more SMEs exporting, and I will return still considerable scope to succeed, but I hope that to that point in a moment. lessons are being learned within the Government. Frankly, as has been touched on in this debate, the Prime Minister We have heard about a large number of success jetting off for a one-off PR stunt is no substitute for stories and we need to go out and argue the case for deep and meaningful Government-to-Government relations. what is already happening among many companies in our constituencies. Many Members have also highlighted The French are particularly adept at this, and President barriers that need to be challenged and tackled. The Sarkozy’s courting over many months of Prime Minister hon. Member for Watford (Richard Harrington) focused Singh seems to have reaped rewards. Will the Minister on cultural barriers. We have to encourage our youngsters outline the steps that are being taken to ensure that the to think about becoming entrepreneurs and exporters. Eurofighter stays in the game? On a wider point, what That needs to be seen as a good thing to do. The hon. will the Government do differently to ensure more Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart) is meaningful and therefore more successful contact to correct that long-term investments need to be made to secure trade for Britain? win new markets. We have strong cultural links with On UK Trade & Investment, I do not want to focus many countries. As the hon. Member for South Thanet on cuts, but the context is important. UKTI’s budget (Laura Sandys) has said, 220 languages are spoken in over the next four years has been cut by 17%. In this country and they link people to their countries of contrast, Ubifrance’s budget saw an increase of 14.2% origin. We need to exploit those links to our advantage, in 2011, while that of Germany Trade & Invest increased and I think that they are there to be taken. by 10%. The Minister, fresh with his red box, will no This debate is timely—tomorrow is the first anniversary doubt spout the lines that tough choices need to be of the trade and investment for growth White Paper. made and that austerity is required to clean up the mess Published early in the Government’s tenure, the White that we left behind, but does he really believe that Paper made clear the importance of rebalancing our reductions to this country’s foreign trade organisation, economy. Growth over the past decade was based too at a time of acute global competitiveness and when our much on debt and consumption, and we need to refocus main competitors are increasing their budgets, are sensible on export. If we are to rebuild our economy, exports are and will not hurt Britain’s export drive? critical, and I think that there is agreement throughout In the time remaining to me, I want to touch briefly the House on that. My hon. Friend the Member for on one of the key barriers to trade, particularly for Solihull (Lorely Burt) made the essential point that the small and medium-sized enterprises, namely access to need to rebalance our economy, build sustainable growth finance. Will the Minister update us on progress made and create jobs through international trade and investment on the actions outlined in the plan for growth, which must be a priority for us all. was published almost a year ago? How many SMEs We are a trading nation with a rich heritage to which have been helped as part of the UKTI’s passport to many hon. Members have referred. We have looked export initiative? How many firms have taken advantage outwards, but in recent years there has been a sense of of the export enterprise finance guarantee? The plan for complacency about our role in the world—it is almost growth produced three new products designed to mitigate as though we have had a sense of entitlement. We need the risks for exporters and potential exporters. How to challenge that, be hungry and show the buccaneering many have taken that up? spirit that has been mentioned. We need to position Britain has a long history of trade across the globe ourselves to take advantage of the new opportunities over many centuries. I liked what the hon. Member for for growth, particularly in respect of the non-traditional Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart) said about the trading partners. We need to work with renewed energy need to look not to our Victorian past, but to think to ensure that all parts of our economy are working further back to our buccaneering in Elizabethan times. together to get the message across that Britain is open We need to address the intense competition. I would for business. The global economy is highly dynamic and hate to see our successors in 50 years’ time lamenting very competitive. We need to be more energetic to win the failed and missed opportunities of the first half of new business. 95WH British Exports8 FEBRUARY 2012 British Exports 96WH

[Norman Lamb] Lord Green is also overseeing changes to UKTI, about which there have been many comments. The In response to the points that have been made, I want changes are bringing in private sector expertise, which to focus on three key issues. First, how can we get more has been mentioned, to strengthen UKTI’s leadership, companies, especially SMEs, to export? Secondly, I and outsourcing services to private sector deliverers. want to outline some of what the Government are That, coupled with an extra £45 million secured by doing to help ease the flow of export credit to exporters. UKTI in the autumn statement, has set it on a course to Finally, I want to say something about what the double the number of companies that it helps from Government are doing to help more British companies 25,000 to 50,000. Lord Green has also overseen the into the fast-growing markets of the east and the south. launch of new packages of export credit finance from Many hon. Members have focused on the first priority. UK Export Finance that now meet the specific financing A vital part of increasing exports is to get more companies needs of SMEs. exporting. My colleague the Minister for Trade and Companies that start to export show increases in Investment, Lord Green of Hurstpierpoint, has set out productivity. They are exposed to new ideas and better an ambitious programme for increasing the number of use of resources. Their competitiveness and business SMEs that export. As I think the hon. Member for sustainability also improve. UKTI and UK Export Macclesfield has mentioned, only 20% to 23% currently Finance can help those companies with advice and export, compared with the European average of about support, but the Government recognise that other partners 25%, and the figure is higher in Germany. We need to and intermediaries have a crucial role to play. get an extra 100,000 SMEs exporting over the next four years to reach the European average. That is a bold, Following on from November’s launch of the national ambitious, but achievable goal, and one on which we export challenge, UKTI and UK Export Finance have must focus. held a series of seminars around the English regions. The most recent was in Yorkshire and Humberside on Achieving that increase in the number of exporters is Monday this week. I encourage all Members—this point not something that the Government, through UK Trade has been made; there is an enormous amount of expertise & Investment and UK Export Finance, can do alone. in and experience of business in the House—to get Last November, at the IMAX at Waterloo, the Prime involved in such events and encourage businesses in Minister launched the national export challenge. This their communities to think about the export opportunities major partnering event brought together all those that are available. organisations and trusted advisers that can reach out to companies with messages about trade and exports. As Lord Green has said on many occasions, to reverse the decline in the UK’s trade balance is a marathon, not The banks face a big challenge. They have the contacts a sprint. We now have in place the ground work on with businesses, but a recent poll showed that many which to build, including the active engagement of small manufacturers do not feel that they are getting the UKTI and UK Export Finance with support networks, support that they need from their banks. Banks and and the targeted support of SMEs at trade fairs and on other organisations need to reach into the business missions overseas. community that provides a direct route to the decision makers who really matter—the directors and managers who live day by day with decisions about how to maintain Mr Andrew Turner (in the Chair): Order. It is time for and build their competitiveness. the next debate. 97WH 8 FEBRUARY 2012 Broadcasting of Court Proceedings 98WH

Broadcasting of Court Proceedings Although the pilot scheme was generally deemed to have been successful, nothing then happened. However, there have been one or two developments outside the 11 am English and Welsh court system. For instance, the Scottish Mr John Whittingdale (Maldon) (Con): I am pleased courts have allowed very controlled broadcasting, but to have the opportunity to hold a short debate on the because anybody can object, it has not been used very subject of the broadcasting of court proceedings. I much. When the Supreme Court was established, it should perhaps make it clear at the start that I am not a allowed some televising of its judgments. Despite the lawyer. I have appeared in court, but only in the jury fact that those are largely fairly detailed legalistic debates, box—never as counsel and not yet in the dock. I understand that the streamed feed from the Supreme Court made available by Sky has had a lot of viewers. However, during the past few months, both in my Indeed, there have been around 50,000 this year, with capacity as Chair of the Select Committee on Culture, 14,000 recently watching the ruling on the Assange case. Media and Sport and as Chair of the Joint Committee on Privacy and Injunctions, I have had dealings with There have been other judicial procedures during many lawyers. In respect of the Joint Committee on which television cameras have been allowed, such as the Privacy and Injunctions, I read the report of the committee Chilcot inquiry, the Hutton inquiry and, of course, on super-injunctions recently prepared by the Master of most recently the inquiry carried out by Lord Justice the Rolls. I want to quote the opening section, in which Leveson. Given the fact that I am involved in considering the Master of the Rolls states: similar material, I have been watching the proceedings of Lord Justice Leveson’s inquiry with great attention. “It has been a fundamental principle of the common law since its origins that justice is conducted, and judgments are given, in Those proceedings have been carried in considerable public.” part on both the Sky News channel and the BBC News channel. There are also plenty of examples in other He then goes on to quote the Lord Chief Justice, who countries. In fact, Britain is one of very few countries said only last year: left that does not allow any televising of its judicial “Justice must be done between the parties. The public must be proceedings. Most comparable countries in the developed able to enter any court to see that justice is being done in that world allow broadcasting; indeed, even China and Russia court, by a tribunal conscientiously doing its best to do justice according to law…In reality very few citizens can scrutinise the allow broadcasting of their court proceedings. judicial process: that scrutiny is performed by the media, whether So if the arguments are so strong, why has it not newspapers or television, acting on behalf of the body of citizens. happened? There have been objections. A long-standing Without the commitment of an independent media the operation objection is that broadcasting proceedings might lead of the principle of open justice would be irremediably diminished.” to grandstanding and that people will play to the cameras I could almost end there, but I want to go on to say a bit and want to become celebrities in their own right. I was about the background to the matter. not a Member when television cameras were introduced The ban on television cameras stems from a section in the House of Commons, but I was active in politics of the Criminal Justice Act 1925, which I understand and I remember precisely the same arguments being was passed to prevent the distraction caused by exploding made then about what would happen with MPs’ behaviour flash bulbs of cameras in court. Of course, at that time and that they would similarly perform to the cameras. television had not even been invented. Since then, there In large part, that has not occurred. Indeed, I think has been a long debate about whether our courts should most people regard the broadcasting of Parliament as be opened up to allow greater access to the media. having been a great success. The debate about television cameras has been going There have also been objections that somehow the on for more than 20 years. In 1989, Jonathan Caplan on media might distort coverage, presenting a slanted view, behalf of the Bar Council produced a report that came and that there will be a loss of objectivity. Of course, out broadly in favour of allowing television, subject to any televising of court proceedings would be subject to certain very strict controls. Nothing then happened the same restrictions on court reporting that exist at the until 2004 when, after discussions between the Department moment for other forms of media—for example, not for Constitutional Affairs and the broadcasters, it was revealing the identity of jurors or of potential rape agreed that a pilot scheme would be allowed to operate victims. Those rules would apply equally to television for a few weeks in the Lord Chief Justice’s court and cameras as they do to newspapers. One has to say that then in the Master of the Rolls’s court. in general—not just in terms of the coverage of judicial That pilot scheme was never broadcast, but it proceedings—television has a better record than newspapers demonstrated that the televising of court proceedings for impartiality and objectivity because it is governed could be done without causing great distraction or by strict rules requiring it to be impartial and objective. disruption, or creating the dangers that people had I shall illustrate a recent case where the televising of spoken about. The broadcasting of proceedings could proceedings certainly had a beneficial effect for me. I be done very discreetly and, most importantly, it could had read a great many fairly lurid accounts, particularly be completely controlled by the judge. During the pilot in the tabloids, of the Amanda Knox case and the scheme, on a couple of occasions the judge pressed the murder in Italy. Many people felt such reports were not button he had to shut off broadcasting. A large number entirely objective and, indeed, that they suggested very of people have seen the results of that pilot and, as far strongly that Amanda Knox was guilty. I happened to as I am aware, it is generally regarded as a success. The be away at the time of the appeal hearing in the Italian pilot scheme did not lead to any great concerns being courts, which was carried in large part on Sky News, expressed and most people felt that it was a step forward and I watched much of the proceedings, including the both in allowing people to see the workings of the court broadcast of Amanda Knox appearing in the witness and increasing understanding of the judicial procedure. box. At the end of the proceedings, I had considerably 99WH Broadcasting of Court Proceedings8 FEBRUARY 2012 Broadcasting of Court Proceedings 100WH

[Mr John Whittingdale] in a step-by-step way. There are genuine concerns and to allay them, we need to proceed gradually. I hope that more doubt about the case. Therefore, when the court in due course we will have much greater access, but let delivered its verdict that she should be released and was us start, as the right hon. Gentleman and the Master of not guilty, it came as less of a surprise than it would the Rolls say, with the Court of Appeal. That would be have done to those people who had only read about the a major step forward and is, I think, what the Government case in the tabloid press. That is an area where broadcasting hope to do. can increase understanding and serve justice well. The obstacle is the requirement for primary legislation. It is easy to think of cases that will obviously be There is no doubt that it will take time for the rules to attractive to the broadcasters. Such cases will not only be worked out, and secondary legislation will probably be sensational, lurid murder trials, although I have no be needed to set out in detail how this will work. doubt that some of those will be broadcast. I shall give However, none of that can begin to happen until there three recent examples where there would have been real is primary legislation. The broadcasters—in a letter that merit in having broadcast coverage. The first—this is a was sent this week by the head of BBC news, the chief painful subject for all of us in this place—is that of the executive of ITN and the head of Sky news: a joint recent trials of MPs for abuse of their expenses. There letter from all three of the main news broadcasters in was a huge public interest in people who were paid from this country—have stated that they are very keen for the the public purse, and it was very important that it was process to get under way, but that primary legislation shown that nobody should be above the law. If those would be required in the Queen’s Speech. My request trials had been broadcast, they would have received a and plea to the Minister this morning is not just to lot of interest and coverage. confirm the Government’s intention to move gradually Secondly, there were the riots, and the cases involving and carefully down this road, but to do so at the first those who were convicted of rioting last summer. Again, opportunity—the Queen’s Speech. there was a very big public interest. There was, perhaps, In conclusion, this is a reform whose time has not just a lack of understanding about some of the sentencing come, but is long overdue. I hope the Minister agrees policy. If people had had the opportunity to see the and is able to provide us with more details this morning. judge deliver a sentence and explain why he had reached that decision, that would also have increased understanding. 11.13 am Thirdly and most recently, there was the Stephen The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice Lawrence case. The fact that justice was finally done (Mr Jonathan Djanogly): I congratulate my hon. Friend received huge coverage in the newspapers. It would have the Member for Maldon (Mr Whittingdale), who is the been even more powerful if the case had been broadcast Chair of the Culture, Media and Sport Committee, on and people had had the opportunity to see justice securing this timely debate. In an impressive and finally being done. knowledgeable speech, he presented a view that is fairly I was therefore extremely pleased to hear the close to that of the Government. announcement by the Lord Chancellor last September Open justice is a long-standing and fundamental that the Government intend to move towards allowing principle of our legal system. Justice must be done as the televising of court proceedings. Of course, there much as it must be seen to be done if it is to command should be a step-by-step approach. public confidence. As my hon. Friend set out, the Master of the Rolls said last year: Mr Andrew Smith (Oxford East) (Lab): I congratulate “Public scrutiny of the courts is an essential means by which the hon. Gentleman on securing this important debate. we ensure that judges do justice according to law, and thereby I agree with the thrust of his argument. It is important secure public confidence”. that justice is not only done, but, as he says, seen to be Very few people have direct experience of court proceedings. done. In principle, our courts are open to all members of the public who wish to attend, but in practice very few On the step-by-step approach, does he agree with the people have the time or opportunity to observe what points made by the Master of the Rolls in his speech to happens in our courts in person. For many, the criminal the Judicial Studies Board on 16 March 2011? He justice system is still seen as opaque, remote and difficult asked, to understand. We need to make it a reality that our “from a public interest perspective might there not be an argument courts are open and accessible to as many people as are now for its hearings”— interested in seeing them work. that is, the Supreme Court— Media coverage is often the prime source for public “and some hearings of the Court of Appeal, being televised on understanding of the criminal justice system, and many some equivalent of the Parliament Channel, or via the BBC people base their views of the courts on their portrayal iPlayer.” on television or film. Those dramatised accounts inevitably Broadcasting court proceedings could start there. We do not give an entirely accurate portrayal of what could then see how that goes, and extend it later. happens in a court case. The Government and the judiciary are committed to improving the public’s Mr Whittingdale: I agree entirely with the right hon. understanding of the criminal justice system through Gentleman. The pilot scheme started in the Court of increasing transparency. The more informed people are Appeal. In their review of the pilot scheme, the broadcasters about the justice system, the more confidence they will said that they would have liked it to have gone further, have in it. and that it should have been allowed to cover Crown Our evidence shows that a key element of confidence court proceedings, and perhaps to have shown witnesses in the criminal justice system is how fair the public as well as the counsel and judge. That needs to be done believe it is. People want information that has not been 101WH Broadcasting of Court Proceedings8 FEBRUARY 2012 Broadcasting of Court Proceedings 102WH spun about what happens to criminals and why. The for watching court proceedings. Limited televised excerpts majority of respondents to the Department for Constitutional from inquiries—my hon. Friend mentioned the Hutton Affairs consultation on broadcasting in courts in 2004 and Leveson inquiries—have been broadcast, and have believed that broadcasting could increase understanding engaged the public as they have progressed. of court processes and make courts more accessible. We must remember, however, that the courts deal That is why the Government believe that removing the with very serious matters that can affect the liberty, current ban on filming in courts will improve public livelihood and reputation of the parties involved. It will understanding of the justice system. be vital that proper safeguards are introduced to ensure The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for that the parties are treated fairly, and that their rights Justice announced last year that the Government plan are respected. Our paramount concern in opening up to allow judgments and sentencing decisions in cases our courts to broadcasting must remain the proper before the Court of Appeal, in both the criminal and administration of justice. civil divisions, to be broadcast. We intend to introduce We are very clear that television must not give offenders legislation to give effect to those reforms as soon as opportunities for theatrical public display. Offenders parliamentary time allows, although I cannot, as I am will not be allowed to be filmed, and we are clear that sure my hon. Friend the Member for Maldon appreciates, the judge will have the right to stop filming in the event pre-empt the Queen’s Speech. We are working very of any demonstration or disruption in the courtroom. closely with the judiciary to take that work forward. We will also not allow victims, witnesses or jurors to be My hon. Friend made a case for the eventual full filmed. Victims and witnesses will be protected, and we recording of all trials. That is not being reviewed at the will not introduce any measures that would make their moment, although I appreciate that he understands that court experience even more difficult or make them even a step-by-step approach, which was how he put it, will more reluctant to give evidence. We are seeking the be required. Over a longer period, we expect to extend views of victims’ groups on our proposals, and potential broadcasting of sentencing remarks to the Crown court, safeguards to ensure that the identities and rights of given a reasonable time after the introduction of victims, witnesses and jurors are protected. broadcasting in the Court of Appeal. All hon. Members will remember the media furore Mr Whittingdale: I accept, of course, that this will be over the O. J. Simpson trial in the United States of a step-by-step process, but I hope that the Minister will America, and, more recently, the trial of Michael Jackson’s not close his mind completely to the suggestion that doctor. My hon. Friend mentioned selected excerpts eventually witnesses should be allowed to be televised. from the Knox case. The Government and the judiciary I know that it is not the same, but I chair televised will not permit our courts to become show trials for hearings, one or two of which have achieved quite large media entertainment. We therefore have no current audiences. I know that appearing before a Select Committee plans to allow the broadcasting of trials from the Crown may be intimidating, but I do not think that it makes a courts, other than sentencing remarks. great deal of difference if it is broadcast. The fact that Currently, the Criminal Justice Act 1925 prohibits witnesses are appearing in a parliamentary forum may anyone taking, or attempting to take, a photograph in be intimidating, as it might be in a court, but the any court except the Supreme Court. Furthermore, the cameras are very discreet, and people are largely unaware Contempt of Court Act 1981 prohibits the use of a tape of them. recorder, or other device, to record the audio of the court proceedings. Primary legislation, as my hon. Friend Mr Djanogly: Such an inquiry may be similar to a made clear, will be required to amend that legislation, criminal trial, but often it is not. The circumstances and and any proposals the Government bring forward will sensitivities may be different, as may the outcome. be subject to proper parliamentary scrutiny and debate. Existing reporting restrictions on cases will continue With certain limited exceptions, most courts are open to apply to broadcasting, and in all cases the judge will to the public, and journalists are allowed to be present have the final say on whether proceedings should be in court and report what they see and hear, subject to broadcast. We are considering how to ensure that any reporting restrictions. At the end of last year, the Lord use of the footage is appropriate to the dignity of the Chief Justice published new guidance for journalists courts as part of the legislative framework. This will not wishing to use live text-based communications, including happen overnight. The 2004 pilot of filming in the Court Twitter from mobile phones, in courtrooms during the of Appeal, which was not for broadcast, demonstrated conduct of a court case. Journalists and legal commentators that it is possible for cameras to be allowed into courts no longer need to apply to use text-based devices to without disrupting the administration of justice. However, communicate from a court during a case, although the before any plans can be agreed, we must take into presiding judge always retains full discretion to prohibit account the views of a wide range of interests, and we such communications in the interests of justice. will have discussions with the judiciary and others to Broadcasting of court proceedings is not without ensure that we have considered the complex legal, practical precedent in this country, as my hon. Friend made clear. and technical issues. We already allow broadcasting of live footage of the Allowing the broadcasting of judgments and sentencing UK Supreme Court, and many people watched Julian remarks is one of a number of measures intended Assange’s appeal to the Supreme Court last week. All to open up the court process to the public, including to hearings in the Supreme Court can be viewed online those who do not have the occasion or opportunity to from anywhere around the world through the live stream attend court in person. The Government are committed on Sky’s website. Figures from the first three months of to providing the public with information on the operation broadcasting from last summer show that that stream of public services in their area, and the justice system is was seen 139,000 times, proving there is a public appetite no exception. We are taking significant steps to open up 103WH Broadcasting of Court Proceedings 8 FEBRUARY 2012 104WH

[Mr Djanogly] Rural Schools the courts to the public, and to get as much information as possible about their performance at local level into [MR MIKE WEIR in the Chair] the public domain. On 24 November last year, we published anonymised, 2.30 pm individual-level sentencing data by court so that the public can see what sentences are being handed down in Mr Jamie Reed (Copeland) (Lab): Today is not the their local courts, and can compare different courts on a first time that we in this House have discussed the future wide range of measures, such as timeliness. At the of small rural schools and I do not believe that it will be beginning of this year, on 12 January, we published the last. I have to make it clear—this view will be shared performance data for individual courts that enable local by colleagues—that I am not interested in listening to communities to find out how their local court is performing any redundant polemic. Instead, I want to illustrate the on a range of measures. The data include, among other plight of small rural schools, particularly the crisis measures, information on case timeliness in criminal, facing Captain Shaw’s Church of England school in the civil and family courts, and the proportion of cracked village of Bootle in my constituency, and suggest some and ineffective trials at the Crown court. That represents potential policy solutions for small rural schools, which a significant step forward in keeping the public informed I hope that the Government will be minded to support. about how the courts are operating in their area. In The Minister will state that such decisions are for local May, we will go a step further and provide justice education authorities and he would be right in part to outcome information on police.uk. That will enable the identify that accountability, but I hope that pressure public to see what happens after a crime is reported—police can and will be brought to bear by him and his Department, actions followed by justice outcomes—and will reinforce not only on this policy area, but on Cumbria county the link between crimes being committed and justice council with regard to its treatment thus far of Captain being delivered. Shaw’s school and the community of Bootle. In addition to the new data we have published on My constituency of Copeland is the English constituency court performance, the Government have taken other most remote from Westminster. Whether by plane, train steps to provide the public with information on how the or car, it is a minimum journey of six hours from criminal justice system works. For example, our release Whitehaven, the constituency’s largest town, to Westminster. on court-level sentencing data in October 2010 was As the Minister knows, Copeland sits within Cumbria, made available in a user-friendly format on the “Making the second largest county in the country, with a population sense of criminal justice” microsite, and was significantly just below 500,000 people, 50% of whom live in rural more popular than normal statistical releases. Crucially, communities. This poses unique policy challenges in the data were released alongside the award-winning every area, from health to economic development, and “You be the Judge” tool, which aims to promote public many of those require unique local solutions, which a understanding of the sentencing process. The Government Government of any colour are required to get behind. believe that providing adequate contextual information However, none of that removes the Government’s to increase public understanding of the criminal justice obligations to the people of Cumbria and, in this instance, system is key to making data meaningful to the public, the people of Bootle. and we plan to provide such information with every I am delighted to hear that the Minister was in transparency-data release. Cumbria this week. I hope it is not the last time that we I believe that the crime and justice sector is at the see him there. vanguard of transparency across Whitehall, and good Bootle is an outstanding community. Situated within progress has been made to date. However, we are committed the Lake District national park, it is a truly beautiful to making the justice system more transparent, and I place. The village—I use that word despite some residents am confident that we will continue to make good progress telling me that it was essentially given town status by in this area. The Government believe that television has Edward III with the granting of a market charter in a key role to play in increasing public confidence, and 1348—is an incredibly beautiful place that was described that is why we plan to introduce broadcasting from by the renowned writer and social campaigner, Doreen courts. However, although it is important for justice to Wallace, in her landmark book, “English Lakeland”. be seen to be done, it is more important that justice is She stated: done. The administration of justice remains our primary “To see Bootle is to love it.” aim, and our proposals to permit broadcasting from She was right. But Bootle has seen huge change in courts will not be allowed to affect that in any way. recent decades. Its employment base has been threatened and it has faced the same challenges faced by other 11.25 am rural areas throughout the country, but these have been Sitting suspended. amplified given the unique nature of Cumbria and Copeland. Right now, Captain Shaw’s school is the centre of Bootle: it is its beating heart, its focal point and, in many ways, its pride. If Captain Shaw’s school is taken away from Bootle, the consequences will be profound. Not only will the village suffer a huge blow in terms of status and civic pride, but the message given to the pupils at that school will be one that is frankly cruel, even brutal. The message is, “We don’t back you, we 105WH Rural Schools8 FEBRUARY 2012 Rural Schools 106WH don’t believe in you, we don’t share your aspirations, we Before issuing its closure notice, Cumbria county don’t understand your ambitions; you are on your council undertook a consultation on what it called own.” I cannot accept that, the people of Bootle cannot “proposed changes”. accept that and the children should not be subjected to I have a tremendous amount of respect for Julia Morrison, the psychological impact of that. Cumbria county council’s director of children’s services, The reality is—I will touch on this issue again later—that who has begun to make a real difference in Cumbria we see the ambitions, aspirations, qualities and hopes of since her recent arrival, but I think I speak for everyone our communities in our schools. I have visited Captain in Bootle when I state that nobody believed that this Shaw’s on a number of occasions. It is a unique school: consultation was ever going to result in anything other the smallest school in the country’s second largest county, than the closure of Captain Shaw’s. in the furthermost English constituency from Westminster. I speak as a former press officer for Cumbria local It currently has a roll of 16 pupils from 4 to 11 years education authority.There have been a number of attempts old. Every time I have visited the school I have been to close Captain Shaw’s over the years, none of which impressed by it. There is a genuine warmth and passion has ever been successful because the case for closure—I about the school and the pupils demonstrate a tremendous have seen this from the inside—could never be made. sense of pride and belonging. The building that they occupy is more than 180 years old, yet it is in very good My first request to the Minister is as follows. The repair inside and out. It has excellent ICT facilities. It is Government have a presumption against the closure of modern on the inside and has a good play area outside. rural schools and have stated that they want to protect them. I share that ambition. Captain Shaw’s is strong The school, as I have mentioned, mirrors the community. and viable and I call upon the Minister to put this It is doing more than simply getting by. It is handsome, policy into effect and intervene in this instance. Even in notable and unique. It is supported by an indomitable its closure consultation, Cumbria county council recognised community spirit and is proud of its past and ready to that the number of pupils at Captain Shaw’s is likely to take on the challenges of the modern world. I could rise and euphemistically acknowledges that, wax lyrical about the school for a long time, but the “village life would clearly not be enhanced by its closure”. independent Ofsted evaluation puts it even better than I ever could. Small rural schools can be outstanding. The outstanding St Bridget’s school in Parton, also in my constituency, is In the latest Ofsted report, Captain Shaw’s school is proof of that, as are many others. I pay tribute to the rated as a good school. In fact, the inspector noted that, work done at St Bridget’s and, in fact, to everything that “this is a good school which has an excellent ethos of care, that school does, not just for its pupils and their parents guidance and support. It is a highly valued member of its local and some pupils’ carers, but for the village of Parton as community, with which there are excellent links benefiting pupils. well. Once again, the case is made that schools like this On leaving Captain Shaw’s, pupils are confident, independent and are the key to the success of the communities that they self-assured young people. They possess excellent social skills are based in. which contribute to their outstanding behaviour and positive attitudes to others”. In one of its final reports, the Commission for Rural Communities published “Small school: Big Communities The report is glowing in other areas too, rating the —Village schools and extended services”, which I commend school as outstanding in the effectiveness of its care, to hon. Members, including the Minister. The report guidance and support for pupils. But it is in lead inspector, focuses upon extended provision as a key policy solution David Byrne’s, letter to pupils and parents after his with which to help sustain rural schools. It is right to inspection that the true nature of Captain Shaw’s school do so. It also mentions that extended services help to and its place within the Bootle community is revealed. break the link between poverty and poor educational He wrote: outcomes. “Your school is quite special. It is very much at the heart of The report states that rural poverty is often hidden. I your village and local area and makes a vital contribution to the lives of many, not just those learning or working in the school.” should like to dwell upon that for a moment, because despite its obvious beauty and despite some obvious I really could not put it any better than that. individual affluence, Bootle is not a rich village. Poverty Despite the school’s small roll, it is viable. Development exists in parts of Bootle and is magnified by its rurality plans are already under way, supported by the national and peripherality. park, to sympathetically develop Bootle with new housing, I am sick and tired of redundant notions of rurality including some affordable housing, which would make running riot across the House, in all political parties. In the school even more viable. In addition, the pupil-teacher the mind’s eye, some in the House see rural areas as ratio at the school is very good indeed, at a level that occupied by corpulent farmers chewing blades of grass many people around the country would choose to pay and leaning on gates and, moreover, as simply a playground for in an independent school. I do not hold independent for those who have wealth and who have left urban schools in higher or worse esteem than our other schools, areas to gentrify the countryside with large homes and but it is perverse that anyone would seek to remove Range Rovers. They never see the young farmer struggling from a community such as Bootle the kind of provision to stay afloat and they rarely consider what it means for that would be valued, privately paid for and even envied people who have no access to public transport and, as a in other parts of the country. This really is the worst result, to the schools, hospitals and other services that kind of policy-making myopia. With that in mind, it is their taxes pay for as much as anyone else’s. They never entirely relevant to mention that the decision to close see the struggling villages that are fighting every day to Captain Shaw’s school has been taken by a county stay alive, which have never known affluence, and the council that is headquartered 62 miles and a one and a pensioners, parents and children who occupy this forgotten half hour drive away from the community in question. country. 107WH Rural Schools8 FEBRUARY 2012 Rural Schools 108WH

Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): In that presumption against the closure of rural schools—it context, does the hon. Gentleman share my concern could scarcely be more symbolic. Secondly, to ensure that some of the public debate about planning policy that local education authorities and other responsible has suggested that people in rural areas do not want to bodies in the case of academies or free schools, nationwide, see any building or development at all, whereas actually are acting in a manner consistent with the statutory having some houses that local people can afford—usually obligation to reduce child poverty laid out in the Child to rent—so that we have children in the schools is very Poverty Act 2010. Thirdly, to bring forward as a matter important to them? of urgency a streamlined process whereby small rural schools can provide extended services, whether public, Mr Reed: I share the right hon. Gentleman’s concern. private or both, so as to secure the viability of those All too often, people—especially those who live in or schools and to reach the most excluded people in our adjacent to national parks—are treated almost as living communities. museum exhibits. That policy attitude has to change While I have the Minister’s attention, it is only right and to change fundamentally. that I raise the issue of school investment more broadly That viewpoint, to which the right hon. Gentleman in west Cumbria. I have written to the Secretary of alluded, must change. As the economic squeeze worsens, State, and I hope that he or the Minister will be able to as the public sector and the state retreat further and as meet me as a matter of urgency. Some of west Cumbria’s areas of market failure become ever more prominent, secondary schools, which had been allocated more than all of us need to pay urgent attention to the plight of £60 million by the previous Government as part of the ordinary people in that forgotten England, because Building Schools for the Future programme, are reaching they need our help and they have little or no interest in crisis point with regard to their physical fabric and the colour of our rosettes. That is why village schools infrastructure. That affects standards, attainment levels, are so important. They can act as the lynchpin for teaching and the aspirations and ambitions of their extended services in a community, through the provision pupils. We urgently need major funding for the fabric of of other public services such as general practice, citizens our schools, whether from a public or private source, or advice, tourist information or even banking. By doing the consequences for education and my community as a that, they give us the best possible chance of reaching whole will be dire. all the people I have mentioned and more, but particularly those most at risk of social exclusion. Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con): The hon. The CRC report states: Gentleman is making a passionate case. Does he agree “Small village schools are in close contact with families and that it is not only the capital funding that is important, have a track record of providing good outcomes for children. but the ongoing revenue funding for schools? A fairer Based in isolated communities, small schools may hold the key to funding formula, which does not discriminate against engaging the most disadvantaged families, but their numbers are rural areas, is vital to keeping small rural schools viable. decreasing.” Ultimately, that is the crux of the issue. The closure of Mr Reed: The funding formula does need to be small rural schools such as Captain Shaw’s is perhaps looked at and, given the inconsistent definition of rurality not seen as a problem for those with private transport to which I alluded, we need to have a more sophisticated and steady employment, but delivers another significant approach to the funding of pupil places, rather than the contradiction with regard to the statutory responsibilities blanket, catch-all provision for rural areas and the of the local education authorities and others in relation blanket, catch-all provision for urban areas. The hon. to child poverty. Gentleman makes a very important point, which needs The Child Poverty Act 2010 creates a duty for local urgent attention. Whether it is as simple as introducing authorities to reduce child poverty. As the CCR report a one-size-fits-all approach for rural areas, I am not so points out: certain—we would need to look at the evidential base. “If poverty is to be tackled effectively, it must be a priority to I was about to conclude. We are an ambitious community, identify and consult with those families who don’t know about or as I am sure the Minister is aware, with an incredibly are prevented from accessing services.” prosperous future before us if we make the right decisions, Village schools have a critical role to play in supporting but we require the reinstatement of the money that the individual families in need, or as a hub for activities that Government took away. I hope that the Minister will will promote learning, economic well-being and social meet me as a matter of urgency to explore how and when cohesion. More than that, it is clear that the choice is that can be done. becoming binary. Maintain small village schools such as Captain Shaw’s in rural areas and extend their provision 2.46 pm of services, and we can tackle the problems of poverty, aspiration and lack of economic opportunities in those Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) (Con): I thank areas. Close the schools, and the evidence would seem the hon. Member for Copeland (Mr Reed) for securing to be clear that we cannot do any of that. Closure is the debate and for all his leadership on Cumbria. Central effectively a choice to worsen the lives and life chances to the issue is rurality and sparse population, and if he of the people in any community facing the loss of its represents the constituency in England furthest from school. As the report points out, that loss is “felt to be London, I represent the constituency in England with irreparable.” the most sparse population. We have about 1,200 square I therefore make three specific requests of the miles and some 1.5 million sheep, but not many people. Government today. First, to intervene in the process to The central issue to do with rural schools is simply an close Captain Shaw’s school. Allowing the smallest aspect of the central problem of rural communities. school in the country’s most beautiful national park to That problem is the relationship between population close would destroy any credibility of the Government’s and area. Since 1997, we can see a consistent pattern 109WH Rural Schools8 FEBRUARY 2012 Rural Schools 110WH throughout almost every area of rural life: a steady Rory Stewart: I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. push and a clear, unstoppable trend towards the hollowing Perhaps I was not clear enough. The national average of out of rural areas. school funding is £5,140 per pupil. Cumbria is in receipt We have two hospitals in northern Cumbria serving of £4,840, so the point is exactly the one that he makes. 350,000 people. That is normally difficult for the Treasury If sparsely populated rural areas such as Cumbria are to justify, and our Cumbrian hospitals have been in compared with urban areas, we receive less. receipt of emergency funding from the Government every year for 19 years, bailing out that fundamental Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): My hon. Friend is structural problem. Our ambulances in Cumbria find making an excellent point, and I endorse it by pointing themselves drifting endlessly south, towards the population out that we have exactly the same problem in centres. In fact, every morning the ambulance sets off Gloucestershire, where there is the same funding difference bravely from Brough, but because it is obliged to pick between rural and urban areas. Gloucestershire is launching up the nearest possible case and that always tends to be a campaign to put that right, and rightly so. further south, it is somewhere south of Blackpool by the time it has to turn around and go back up to Brough Rory Stewart: I thank my hon. Friend. The point in the evening. The same extends to old people’s homes, about Gloucestershire is key. There are many reasons post offices, pubs, farms and broadband—we have some why things tend to get bigger, and why small shops give of the slowest broadband in Britain—and to issues such way to supermarkets, small dental practices give way as flood protection, which I discussed with the hon. to bigger dental practices, and small schools give way to Member for Copeland earlier. larger schools. That is partly because of the regulations Since 1997, therefore, we have seen a cataclysmic that we impose on such institutions, and partly because hollowing out of rural areas throughout the country. of pupil’s expectations and the variety of teaching that Nationally, there are now 2,200 fewer schools in Britain they can receive. That is difficult to deliver in small than in 1997, 550 fewer clinics and hospitals, 350 fewer schools. When I look out of my window in Cumbria, police stations and, famously, almost 10,000 fewer pubs— I see a school in Bampton that had run continuously mostly gone from rural areas. It is, therefore, something since 1613, but has had to close because it was considered of a miracle that our rural areas survive at all, when so to be unsustainable. It is an odd world where something much of the structure in the modern world seems to be that was affordable 400 years ago is no longer affordable set against them. In the Pyrénées, one can walk through when we are spending so much more per capita on our abandoned village after abandoned village, and the same government. is true in the central United States. It is a miracle that The problem is size, and we have extremes. Samuel Governments have managed to fight the endless centralising King school in Alston has only 161 pupils, making it power of the market that tends to drive people out. the smallest high school in Britain. Why should it remain open? It remains open because it is more than Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con): My hon. Friend is 20 miles from Penrith, across a pass that is closed for making some powerful arguments. Is not part of the many days during the winter. One simply cannot get to problem—it certainly is in my region—that small rural Alston, which is the highest market town in the Pennines. communities are classified as unsustainable by their A school is necessary there, because students would local authorities and local development plans, so they otherwise not be able to get to school at all. Kirkby cannot expand and support local schools, post offices Stephen has the smallest high school in the country. It and so on? The problem is that communities in such has 406 students, but only 70 are in the high school. Its areas want to expand, but are not allowed to, and the catchment area covers 400 square miles of countryside, unsustainable tag becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. and whatever some fantasist would like to do in the name of rationality, that school provides an essential service. Rory Stewart: My hon. Friend makes a powerful point. The slogan of sustainability is used to cover up a Such schools face difficulties, because the lack of whole series of crimes perpetuated against rural areas affordable housing, and the limited demographics mean by local authorities. Local authorities imagine that there that it is difficult for them to increase their numbers. is an incredibly unfair structural system whereby rural Kirkby Stephen school breaks even with about 410 students. areas are continually subsidised by more densely populated It makes money with 415 students, and if the number areas, and they demand to know why that should be. drops below 400, it loses an enormous amount of money. The reality, of course, is that rural areas are often in But it has little control over that because its catchment receipt of less funding than urban areas, despite higher area is so limited in terms of population, although its costs. For example, education provision in Cumbria is size is large. £4,840 per pupil, compared with a national average of Almost every one of our outstanding schools in £5,140, despite the structural problems that the hon. Cumbria—those that I mentioned are predominantly Member for Copeland mentioned, and which I shall rated as outstanding by Ofsted, and are eagerly signing continue to discuss. Our communities put incredible up for the Government’s academy programme—have energy into trying to keep those assets open, providing continual financial problems. They have generally had volunteer time and free land, but that is swept aside by to be bailed out by the county council year after year, the centralising tendency. and are in an uncomfortable position. When they become independent as academy schools, the funding they take Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): My hon. on is the base level that they received from the county Friend seems to be talking about small schools receiving council, and does not include the emergency bail-outs more than other schools in Cumbria, but the schools that they received year after year, so they find themselves that receive much more are those in towns and cities. It running up increasing deficits. That is so in Alston, is not a Cumbrian fix; it is a national fix. and in Kirkby Stephen, where the debt is approaching 111WH Rural Schools8 FEBRUARY 2012 Rural Schools 112WH

[Rory Stewart] I grew up in Liverpool and went to a classic primary school, which had 30 or 60 kids a year and was all one £500,000—the £140,000 a year that it used to receive school. When I lived in Hampshire and was a school from the county council was discontinued at exactly the governor in a rural area, I was introduced to the concept time it embarked on its, hopefully positive, future as an of mixed-age classes—combinations. I then went to academy school. schools, such as Peasenhall, where key stage 1 pupils I want to make two requests of the Minister. One is were together and all the key stage 2 pupils were together. that we address seriously the issue of the rural funding Trying to differentiate pupils—admittedly a small number formula. We should not allow that to be seen as a selfish —across a wide range of abilities and progress creates attempt by sparsely populated areas, such as Cumbria, challenging teaching conditions. to steal money from more deserving people. It is consistent I am sure that it is a great pleasure to step out of with our general attitude towards rural areas, and our school and, instead of the hard concrete that I remember general desire that rural areas should not be seen as playing netball and other things on, have a view of places that we want to be hollowed out in relation to beautiful fields and playing fields. That natural environment health care, transport or education. It is a fundamental is impressive, and perhaps I did not share that experience commitment of our civilisation to rural areas. where I grew up in Liverpool. My second request, which is smaller and technical, is There are also financial aspects. We heard the eloquent that I would like the Minister to provide someone from contribution from my hon. Friend the Member for the Department for Education to work with the boards Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart). Funnily enough, of governors, particularly at Kirkby Stephen and Alston, I have a village called Brampton in my constituency as on their budgets. They have launched themselves to well, which also has a very small primary school that academy status, and they have great governing bodies suffers similar challenges to those that he mentioned. with great head teachers, but they could do with a lot of We get even less money than Cumbria does; the county help to understand the budget. They are in a difficult of Suffolk gets £4,676. situation because they hear one thing from the county I hope that the Minister recognises the challenges of council, and another with their new academy status. sparse population, which include the costs of school They need someone to compare their per capita funding transport. Shipping children around is expensive, and with that of other schools around the country, and to towns or cities in particular do not have those costs. I provide technical advice on what would be reasonable remember getting the bus to school and it was fine reductions. That would be of enormous assistance to because there were buses every 10 minutes or so, but our schools. those of us with rural constituencies know that that just On those two notes, and with acknowledgement to does not happen in those areas, and nor would I expect the hon. Member for Copeland, I thank you, Mr Weir, it to. I am not suggesting that someone who lives in the for calling me. country should have the same public transport service as someone who lives in the middle of the city, but the additional cost pressures are a challenge for rural schools. 2.57 pm It would interesting to hear the Minister’s understanding Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): It is a of the progress on educational challenges for rural great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, schools. People are hugely surprised to hear that somewhere Mr Weir. I congratulate the hon. Member for Copeland such as Suffolk is pretty low down in its progress towards (Mr Reed) on securing this debate on the future of rural GCSE targets. That is not unique to my county, but is schools. also true in other rural counties. I hope that the Minister I represent a constituency in Suffolk, and when I and his officials are working on something to ensure moved to the constituency, I was impressed to discover that children across the country get the same support. how many small rural schools were able to survive. In As my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester my patch, I have seven schools with a roll of fewer than (Mr Walker) eloquently pointed out, there definitely 50, and the smallest has about 20 pupils. A further six seems to be a bias towards urban schools, which is have a roll of fewer than 100. I have been impressed by perhaps tradition given the more conventional aspects the head teachers’ leadership in doing what they can to of social deprivation and the indices. He pointed out to ensure that they keep the schools going in the communities. me that there are ongoing revenue challenges, because As the hon. Gentleman said, it is not a question of the children with additional languages are not being identified rich rural message. People in urban places are often quickly enough. More people are coming from eastern surprised at how many of our small rural schools have Europe with their children and settling in parts of rural upwards of 40% of pupils receiving free school meals, and agricultural England, and that is not recognised. which reflects the fact that poverty is spread throughout Some of the indicators are a few years old, so the the country and not concentrated in urban areas. revenue is not keeping up quickly enough. Suffolk has managed to survive. I believe that it was I do not intend to detain the House for much longer. the county council’s policy to try to keep as many Plenty of right hon. and hon. Members want to stand schools as possible open. That is different in one of our up to ensure that rural schools get a fair share of the neighbouring counties, where a deliberate attempt funding, but I encourage them, especially the hon. Member was made to close as many schools as possible and to for Copeland, to encourage parents in their areas to consolidate primary schools. An interesting way that find out whether a free school is possible. [Interruption.] schools have got around that is by starting to share head Perhaps his nodding indicates that that has already teachers. I point to Peasenhall and Middleton schools, happened. It has certainly happened in Suffolk. West which have 56 children between them and share a head Suffolk is going through a schools organisation review, teacher, and that seems to work. which I fully support—I support the move towards a 113WH Rural Schools8 FEBRUARY 2012 Rural Schools 114WH two-tier model, because it has been statistically shown my hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey) that children can make more progress that way—but referred. Closures in rural Northumberland have invariably understandably, significant communities would have happened because the governors have concluded that their schools removed, and we all know that when a a school is no longer viable. That view is not always school is lost, an element of vitality is lost as well. shared by the local community, which sometimes disagrees As my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick- with the governors and would like to see a school upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) said, a lot of countryside retained. villages want more building because they want more In all cases, closure is to be regretted because of the families. They want a viable community, not to lose a impact on the community. The school is a meeting school and see children transported 15 miles. A child place. Some places where schools have closed have transported to school has one minute to get on the bus, managed to retain them as community meeting places, which significantly limits their opportunities for after-school but the loss of children from the village during the day activities. There is something to be said about hearing a is serious. They no longer put on the events they used to positive message from the Minister, who I am sure, in in the villages where the schools were situated—dramatic his constituency in West Sussex, is constantly asked to activities, re-enactments and so on, and music at church ensure that the countryside is not forgotten. and chapel events. Many people prefer to see children in the village, morning and afternoon, going to and from 3.6 pm school. The village becomes very quiet when there are no longer children going to and from school or voices Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): I am glad from the playing fields at break time. That takes something to have the opportunity to take part in the debate that out of a village. the hon. Member for Copeland (Mr Reed) so helpfully introduced. I must tell him that my constituency is even The problem, in Northumberland at any rate, is not further from London than his and at least as sparsely some bureaucratic and draconian policy of getting rid populated as that of my hon. Friend the Member for of schools, but a shortage of children and young families. Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart). It is therefore an Young families cannot afford to live in many of our area with a lot of very small schools, and I have several villages; with low local wages and the price of houses, with fewer than 12 pupils. property is well beyond their reach. Houses are attractive to people coming to retire and those who want second Mr Reed: I want to clarify that point. The right hon. homes and so are beyond the reach of local people. Gentleman is, of course, geographically much further Of course, many rural council houses have also been from London than I am, but I think that he can get here sold over the years. We therefore need to replace housing an awful lot quicker than I can. stock for young families in our villages. I repeat the point that I made in my earlier intervention: we must Sir Alan Beith: I commend the east coast train service not let a sudden panic about planning policy lead in that respect. people to the conclusion that no development can take As I said, quite a number of schools in my area have place in rural areas. We need communities to have a life fewer than 12 pupils. There is a unique school on Holy in the future, and that means having affordable housing island that much of the time is combined with a school for young families in villages, as well as workshops and in Lowick on the mainland, but when the tide is over, other places where trades and activities can continue. the children are educated in a little village school on the It also means ensuring that we have other housing in island itself. That arrangement must continue or they villages, because we want communities to be mixed. would not be able to go to school without boarding at Newcomers often bring life to a village and are often the age of five—of course, they board later in their among the most active supporters of local institutions. educational career. We need to sustain our villages. When a previous Conservative Government were in There are always a few children left—those of farmers power and there was grant-maintained status, the county and farm workers—but life becomes that much more council threatened one school with closure. It went difficult for them when there are no other children in grant maintained and saved itself, and is still there to the village, and the village is almost devoid of young this day. It made a rather shrewd move. That was an families. exception to the pattern, and I will explain how school closures come about. Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD): I entirely share my right hon. Friend’s analysis that we In my constituency, we have lost 10 rural schools in cannot allow our rural communities to become fossilised 10 years. Villages such as Kirknewton, Millfield, Chatton and our villages to stop moving forward in time. Does and Eglingham have lost their schools. Two schools are he agree that the Localism Act 2011 and the community threatened at Cornhill and Brampton, and in both cases right to build represent an avenue that some villages will there are very small numbers of children at each school— enjoy exploring as they grow? The register of assets of just three or four. In the past, we lost schools in the community value is another important provision that Cheviot hills that served the communities of shepherds local communities can use in safeguarding some of the at places such as Windyhaugh and Southern Knowe. services, in addition to schools, that hon. Members have The current policy of the county council is certainly talked about. not to bring about school closure, even though, like other authorities mentioned today, it gets much less per Sir Alan Beith: Those measures, which the Government pupil than some urban communities, despite the high have introduced, are very welcome. People in the villages costs of educating pupils in a much larger number of in my constituency are actively pursuing all those angles schools scattered over many communities and the high to ensure that local services continue to be provided. costs of transport for children in rural areas, to which They have put a lot of effort into improving village 115WH Rural Schools8 FEBRUARY 2012 Rural Schools 116WH

[Sir Alan Beith] autonomy from local authorities addresses some of the issues that have arisen in the debate. It is critical that we halls, turning former schools into village halls and putting send out the message to small rural schools that academy together schemes to help remaining schools, to work conversion is a way forward. closely with them and to use community assets jointly That leads to me to a point that struck me while I was with them. An awful can be done, but there need to be listening to my hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk people to do it and young families to participate. Coastal (Dr Coffey). She was talking about shared Let me give one salutary warning. The school in one heads, and that is very much a direction of travel. village in my constituency closed many years ago. Later, Academies should be thinking very much about federalising there was some housing development. As a result, a structures, where appropriate, and about sharing facilities. busload of children now go from the village to another one five miles away because there is no school. Stephen Gilbert: In my constituency, some very innovative Circumstances change, and we should think more often, academy chains are being created. That is allowing when the situation allows, about reopening schools or exactly the kind of economies that the hon. Gentleman even opening new schools in village communities that is talking about, with a chief executive overlooking show real growth. That will be the exception, not the a number of primary schools. I therefore endorse his norm, but there are cases where such measures are point. appropriate. However, we need to try to sustain villages, so that our schools can continue. Neil Carmichael: I thank the hon. Gentleman very Even in an area such as Northumberland, where no much—I do like to be endorsed every now and again, policy is being pursued directly to the detriment of and that was firm and fair. village schools—that has been the case for some years— Let me reiterate the point about free schools, which village schools are under serious threat. The threat are obviously an alternative when a local authority is comes from the decline of villages and the way in which unwilling to countenance the continuation of schools. the average age in villages is increasing year by year It is essential that local communities take hold of the because of a shortage of young families. Safeguarding powers and opportunities that the coalition Government our village schools is therefore not just important, but have given them to voice what they want. part of a wider policy towards rural communities, and it will require great effort in years to come. Mr Reed: The hon. Gentleman is making some interesting The Minister would be surprised—he can see what points, but one issue underlying a lot of the contributions is coming—if I did not finish by referring to the high that hon. Members have made is that school failures, school that serves a large rural area of my constituency. for want of a better term, occur in areas of market Children go to the Duchess high school, in Alnwick, failure. That is a fundamental problem, and we need to from villages from many miles around. I simply remind grasp it. It has been evident in England’s rural areas him that we are all waiting with bated breath for since the war, and it has been accelerating since then. the school capital programme announcement. We are These areas of market failure often have little, if any, determined that the school—it is on a split site and in real social capital. Are we really telling them, “You an appalling physical state, but it is a good school—can either have a free school or an academy, or we withdraw benefit from that programme as soon as possible. provision”? I do not think that we are, are we? 3.13 pm Neil Carmichael: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): I did not come to interesting intervention—I do not think that it was an the debate expecting to make a contribution, and I am endorsement. I am challenging the old way of doing grateful to you, Mr Turner, for allowing me to do so. I things, with local authorities providing schools and want quickly to refer to several points, which sprang to everything that was necessary. We have to take a step my mind while I was listening to the debate. away from saying, “The local authority must do this, The first is that the Government are consulting on because it’s always been there, and that’s the way we like school funding, and that is absolutely right. It is important it.” We have to move towards a situation where we that rural school supporters, of which I am one, make encourage communities to decide for themselves what absolutely sure to get across the point that these schools they want and to move in the appropriate direction, should be able to spend their budget with few prescriptions. seizing the opportunities and the tools that the coalition We also need to sort out the argument over equality Government are providing. I am saying we should think between rural and urban schools and, indeed, in rural of a different way of looking at this problem; we should areas. That is a fundamental issue, and the Government not just go back to the local authority and say, “You are rightly alive and alert to it. must do this.” Instead, we have to go down the academy The second dimension to the question about the and the free schools route, if that is what communities future of rural schools is that some wish to expand. In want, because a sustainable community will be even my constituency, that is, to some extent, a pressure. The more sustainable if it is in charge of its destiny. That is Government need to make it easier for schools to the point that I would make in response to the hon. understand how they can expand and what mechanisms Gentleman. they might use to rise to the challenge of providing I am a great supporter of rural schools. They are extra classrooms. The second issue, therefore, is letting absolutely important. They are a part of the rural fabric, existing schools expand. make villages work, encourage farmers to be farmers The third point that we should discuss is the scope and encourage local people to stay in local areas. However, academies have in terms of primary schools and small we need to be more alert to changes that are already in schools. Giving schools additional independence and train that will make it easier for many schools to prosper. 117WH Rural Schools8 FEBRUARY 2012 Rural Schools 118WH

We also need to address the fundamental and clearly Catherine McKinnell: That is a point to be debated. I most important question, which I raised initially, about think the hon. Gentleman was asking whether the Secretary the funding formula. of State could have intervened to stop the closure of I support small rural schools. I have plenty in state schools. Gloucestershire and I want to see them thrive. The critical point that all of us must understand—I will end Mr Turner indicated assent. on this—is that all schools must strive to be really good schools. It is not good enough to say, “We have a rural Catherine McKinnell: Not during that period, and school. Great.” Rural schools must provide first-class not now. education. That must be the key test. That is what governs me and that is what I always think when I go Rory Stewart: I do not wish to debate statistics, but I around schools in my constituency of Stroud. am afraid that the idea that the average rate of school closures since 1997 is seven is a severe underestimation. 3.20 pm I could name, off the top of my head, seven schools in Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) my own constituency that were closed in the past five (Lab): First, I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member years. for Copeland (Mr Reed) on securing today’s interesting and important debate and on making a powerful case. Catherine McKinnell: No, but I agree that the hon. He told us about the proposal to close Captain Shaw’s Gentleman has made a powerful case for the concerns school in Bootle in his constituency, which has 16 pupils. in the area, regarding the decline that he feels he has I think we would all agree that, in bringing the matters witnessed in his area. I feel that all hon. Members today before the House today, he has represented his constituents have made a powerful case for state intervention, particularly with great passion. Such decisions can be made only at in such areas, and for serious consideration to be given a local level, but it is right for my hon. Friend to seek to to how the state can intervene in the market to try to raise the profile of the issue by securing today’s debate. ensure that rural areas do not suffer disproportionately, The points that he has raised here should be fully particularly in the cuts environment that we are facing considered by the local authority before making any at the moment. I would be interested to hear the Minister’s final decision. response to the concerns that have been raised today. We also had interesting contributions from a number Neil Carmichael: I do not think I was making a case of hon. Members today, including the hon. Members for state intervention. I was making a case for empowering for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart) and for our local communities to take charge of their own Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey), the right hon. Member for schools and to take hold of the opportunities given by Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) and—in a rather the Academies Act 2010, autonomous schools and active, impromptu manner, but no less interesting and important vibrant communities. —the hon. Member for Stroud (Neil Carmichael). Before I start, I should set out my own credentials Catherine McKinnell: I thank the hon. Gentleman for and declare that I live in a distinctly urban area of his clarification. The overall impression that I got from Newcastle upon Tyne, and it takes me only three hours hon. Members’ contributions today is that there clearly to arrive here by train. None the less, there is a strong is a powerful case for concern about a purely market-led case to be made here in today’s important debate about approach to education and the impact that that can the issues that face rural communities, especially in have on rural communities. relation to schools. Contrary to the assertions made by the hon. Member Mr Reed: There is a world of difference between for Penrith and The Border, Labour had, within a year allowing communities to flourish and determine their of coming into government, introduced a presumption own future, and throwing areas of market failure further against closures of rural schools. The year in which the to the forces and whims of the marketplace. Does my number of rural school closures was the highest was hon. Friend agree that we are all struggling with the 1983, when 127 were closed. The rate of closures continued following point? We are all debating different notions of at about 30 a year until 1997. The measures taken by rurality, and we are not considering some things that Labour reduced closures to an average of seven a year she will be aware of—as this is writ large in her own throughout the period we were in government. Furthermore, constituency—which are issues and notions of peripherality? under the Education and Inspections Act 2006, the They are the big issues that are driving the problem. presumption against closure was strengthened by requiring that the closure of rural schools must take the effect on Catherine McKinnell: That is something we have the community into account and look at alternatives. witnessed not just in rural areas, but in urban areas. We need to ensure that taxpayers’ money and state support Mr Andrew Turner: Will the hon. Lady tell me whether goes to all areas and all children—at the end of the day, the closure of schools under the Labour Government they are what we are talking about today—that they could have been stopped at the national level? benefit equally, and that that support is distributed equally across the country. We are debating that important Catherine McKinnell: Sorry. I did not quite understand wider issue. the question. Sometimes, when we consider all the factors, including Mr Turner: I am trying to ask whether under the the cost of additional school transport and the extreme previous Government, closure of schools could have case that was mentioned, in Alston in Penrith and The been stopped, as it had been before 1997, by the Border, it can make the case for closure of a small rural Government. school more marginal. We were clear about the need to 119WH Rural Schools8 FEBRUARY 2012 Rural Schools 120WH

[Catherine McKinnell] co-operative schools can be based on values of collaboration and partnership, rather than the negative forms of presume against closing rural schools when we were in competition between schools that the Government government. In January 2008, the then Schools Minister, sometimes seem to advocate. Jim Knight, now Lord Knight of Weymouth in another I shall put to the Minister questions that follow on place, wrote to local education authorities. He said: from the points that I have raised and that respond to “Over the last 10 years, we have made it a statutory requirement the points highlighted by other hon. Members. What for councils to presume that rural schools should stay open. are the Government doing to promote and encourage There is not, and never has been, any policy for closing rural co-operative schools, particularly in rural areas? What schools...We require councils to assess the full impact of closure are they doing to permit resources to promote the on rural communities and allow every single parent to have their co-operative school model in the same way as they have voice heard—and I am writing to local authorities to underline their legal duty to protect popular rural schools. This is not about earmarked funds for their pet project of free schools? funding. This is caused by falling birth rates coupled with families How much money in total has the Minister allocated moving from rural to urban areas, which leaves some communities to the free schools policy? To what extent could that be with falling numbers of pupils.” diverted to other proposals? How much does it work He also said that local authorities should think creatively out at per pupil? How many rural school closures could about their future planning and look at forming federations be prevented if money allocated to free schools in areas or consider collocating with other services to ensure where there is a shortage of pupil places were diverted that their buildings are viable. to small rural communities such as the one that my hon. Friend the Member for Copeland is so concerned about? Labour’s record was to reduce significantly the rate Will the Minister retain the previous Government’s of rural school closures and to make it more difficult presumption against closing rural schools? Will he guarantee for failing ones to automatically lead to the seemingly that the current Government will ensure that the rate of easy option of closure. rural closures does not go up on his watch? I have One way of keeping rural schools open is to ensure concerns and, indeed, there are many concerns among that there are more opportunities for them to collaborate Labour Members that an over-focus on peripheral projects in an imaginative way. Despite the rhetoric that the means that the Government are in danger of forgetting Government sometimes spout, no school is an island. about the real issues that face rural schools. I look In the case of rural schools, that is particularly important—a forward to the Minister’s reply. point that has been highlighted by hon. Members today. Under the previous Government, the Department for 3.32 pm Children, Schools and Families undertook a research The Minister of State, Department for Education study in 2009 to look at case studies of formal collaborations (Mr Nick Gibb): It is a pleasure to speak under your between small rural primary schools in ways that could chairmanship, Mr Weir. I congratulate the hon. Member improve their services and viability. We saw examples of for Copeland (Mr Reed) on securing this important that occurring in sharing business managers and head debate. Cumbria in general and his constituency in teachers, creating patterns of executive leadership and particular are clearly among the most beautiful parts of sharing governance through federations and shared trusts. the country. It was a pleasure to be in Cumbria this The study found a rich variety of informal collaborations week, visiting schools—they were not in his constituency, but less awareness of formal collaborative models. It but in a neighbouring one. There were times during this found that many of the 2,500 or so small primary debate when I felt that there was an almost Mr Bounderby- schools in the country could benefit from more formal esque competition to represent the constituency that collaborations. was the furthest from London and the most sparsely The main recommendations of the report include: populated. Of course, the hon. Member for Newcastle producing better information and guidance of statutory upon Tyne North (Catherine McKinnell) conceded that models of collaboration; local authorities should develop she would be in last place in such a competition. strategic plans to promote formal collaborations; local The Government share the hon. Gentleman’s views authorities and Church of England diocese should on the importance of small rural schools. We recognise co-operate more closely; and local authorities should the contribution that they make, and that often they are advocate formal collaborations more effectively through at the heart of their communities. Rural schools play an governing bodies and local communities. important role in our education system. Of the 18,500 One of the collaborations that was looked at involved maintained schools, 5,400 are rural schools. As of this shared trusts. In the unbalanced debate that there is at month, there is a total of 312 rural academies, including the moment because of the obsession with free schools converters, and 1,294 urban academies. and academies, not enough attention is being paid to Small schools are classified as state-funded primary the potential of trusts not only to keep open small rural schools with fewer than 100 pupils and state-funded schools, but to provide a coherent and integrated model secondary schools with fewer than 600 pupils. There are of education in rural areas. 57 small academies, of which eight are rural schools, One of the most exciting developments is the spread and 2,800 maintained small schools, of which 2,300 are of co-operative trusts. There are now more than 150 rural schools. Of those, 525 schools have fewer than co-operative schools across the country. Particularly in 50 pupils on their roll, of which only 14 are not rural areas such as Cornwall, there is real interest in that schools. approach. Supporting co-operative models was a policy There are many high-performing rural schools that of the previous Labour Government and a commitment are popular with parents, and the Government want to in “The Children’s Plan,”launched in 2007. By embedding see good and accessible schools in every community. what is essentially a social enterprise ethos in schools, However, as we have debated today, schools in rural 121WH Rural Schools8 FEBRUARY 2012 Rural Schools 122WH areas face particular challenges, including smaller pupil expecting the people in those areas to take up the numbers, budget and resource pressures, greater difficulty cudgels and run schools. There is a tension and a in recruiting head teachers and teaching staff, the problem there. How do we get around that? technological challenges of ensuring adequate broadband, and less peer support from schools in neighbouring Mr Gibb: The hon. Gentleman makes a very good areas. All those pressures can lead, in the words of my point, but there are very determined parents in all hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border communities in all parts of the country. We have seen (Rory Stewart), to the hollowing out of rural areas. He that. Many people have been surprised by quite how made a powerful speech in defence of rural areas. much demand there has been to set up free schools. The However, although it is true that some rural schools are number of applications has been in the hundreds, and isolated, there are good examples of effective collaboration although there is a very rigorous vetting procedure that —something referred to by the hon. Member for Newcastle needs to be gone through before people can continue on upon Tyne North—and a growing trend towards federation, to a business case, those applications have come from a as pointed out by my hon. Friend the Member for wide variety of parts of the population—rich and poor, Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey). Some schools in her north and south and rural and urban—so if I was the constituency share head teachers. That helps to preserve hon. Gentleman, I would not be too pessimistic about the focus of education within the locality, while allowing who might come forward with such a suggestion. Also, the operation of a larger management unit and offering some of the academy chains may wish to establish new some economies of scale. free schools in areas where they perceive that there is an educational need, particularly in areas of deprivation, There is also a growing trend for good and outstanding which can of course, as he and the hon. Member for rural schools to convert to academy status. We encourage Newcastle upon Tyne North point out, be rural as well such applications, in line with the Government’s overarching as urban. ambition for all schools to become academies—that was referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Local authorities are responsible for the maintained Stroud (Neil Carmichael)—so that more children can schools in their area and as such they can propose benefit from the improved standards and autonomy changes, including closures, to those schools. Where that academy status brings. To support that intention changes are proposed, the local authority must follow a further, the new academy presumption in the Education statutory process that includes consultation of those Act 2011 requires local authorities first to seek proposals likely to be affected by the proposals. The proposals are for an academy or free school where they consider that then decided on under local decision-making arrangements there is a need for a new school. The Government’s free by the authority. The Government have repealed the schools policy supports rural school provision, as it can so-called surplus places rule, which obliged local authorities respond directly to local parental demand—that was to remove surplus places in their school estate above also pointed out by my hon. Friend the Member for 25%. Of course, local authorities are still obliged to Stroud—and it adds diversity, innovation and commitment ensure value for money. When considering whether to to the school system. Again, we encourage rural groups approve proposals to close a school, local authorities and parents to consider applying to establish a new free must have regard to DFE guidance for decision makers. school where they think there is a need. There are already That includes the presumption against closure for rural three small rural free schools, with a further 18 in the primary schools. As the hon. Member for Newcastle pipeline. upon Tyne North said, such arrangements were introduced by the previous Government, but in answer to her Home-to-school transport will invariably be part of specific question, this Government continue to support any discussion about rural schools, as pointed out by such a presumption. Although it does not mean that my hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal. That rural schools will never close, it does ensure that a local will be the case particularly where a school is proposed authority’s case for closure must be strong. Of course if for closure and the pupils will need transportation to a local authorities are under a regulatory duty to eliminate different school in a different village. We know how surplus places, that would—and did—act as a countervailing crucial transport is to rural communities. The Department pressure to close schools. My right hon. Friend the for Transport has provided £10 million of extra funding Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed made an important for community transport in rural areas. Of course, local point about how circumstances can change. authorities need to consider transport costs when they consider the projected savings from closing a school. Rory Stewart: Will the Minister explain what is happening I was struck by the point made by my right hon. with this long-term trend? Contrary to the claims of the Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan shadow Minister that an average of seven schools a year Beith) about a rural school in his constituency. It was a were closed during that 13-year period, the Department’s village school that closed. Later, a new housing development figures suggest that the number of schools nationally was built, which required all the children from that has fallen from 26,362 in 1997 to 24,605 in 2010. If all housing development to get on a bus to a village several these safeguards and formulae are in place to prevent miles away, at considerable cost to the local authority. schools from being closed, why have nearly 2,000 gone?

Mr Reed: The Minister is making a very informed Mr Gibb: I stand to be corrected, but I think that my and intelligent series of comments, but how can we hon. Friend is citing the figure for schools overall. expect academies and free schools to flourish in the There was a considerable number of school closures, areas that we are talking about? The areas facing these and we were concerned in opposition about the number difficulties and problems with school closures are typically of Titan schools that were developing. The average size areas where there is no social capital and where civic of a secondary school, and indeed of a primary school, society has either withered or largely gone, yet we are increased during that period. Much of that was driven 123WH Rural Schools8 FEBRUARY 2012 Rural Schools 124WH

[Mr Gibb] do want to address these disparities in our funding system. That is why proposals in the “Consultation on by the regulatory statutory requirement on local authorities School Funding Reform: Proposals for a Fairer System,” actively to eliminate surplus places beyond 25%. That which we undertook in 2011, looked at how small schools has now led to problems. The birth rate has risen and could be better protected, as well as at the underlying there is an increasing demand on primary school places, discrepancies and unfairness that are in the current and we now have to rebuild, purchase or expand primary system. We would like to address the disparities in the schools to cope with the rise in numbers. rural schools either through a sparsity weighting or, in There is a case for saying, “Why don’t we mothball the case of primary schools, through a lump sum figure. classrooms, because in several years’ time we could see The lump sum suggested in the consultation—I emphasise an increase in the birth rate?” However, that comes at a that it is only a consultation at this stage—is £95,000. cost, which local authorities must take into account We have published a summary of responses that we when they make such decisions. As far as rural schools are considering and we will make a further announcement are concerned, my understanding is that the introduction in the spring. We had better arrange this meeting with to that presumption did reduce the numbers of rural my hon. Friend and other hon. Members before that school closures from about 30 a year to an average of response; otherwise, the meeting might seem a little 11 in recent years. None the less, I stand to be challenged superfluous. by my hon. Friend at any point. In the interim, for 2011-12 and 2012-13, we have set a cash floor of minus 2%, which means that, in practice, Rory Stewart rose— no local authority will see a drop in its dedicated schools grant allocation of more than 2% regardless of Mr Gibb: Indeed, I stand to be challenged right now. pupil numbers. That is to protect local authorities that have falling pupil numbers. Rory Stewart: I am so sorry. I hesitate to quote, but I understand the local community’s passion for Captain the Conservatives’ own manifesto on rural areas based Shaw’s school in the constituency of the hon. Member on freedom of information requests to local councils for Copeland. I can see why it is the “beating heart” of established that more than 400 rural schools were closed the community and why it is supported by an “indomitable between 1997 and 2010. community spirit.” As my right hon. Friend the Member Mr Gibb: I am rapidly trying to calculate 400 divided for Berwick-upon-Tweed pointed out, people prefer to by 13. I will come back to my hon. Friend when I am see village children attending their local school, being sure that I have all the mathematics absolutely correct, heard at playtime and being seen walking home instead that we are both defining rural schools on the same of arriving home half an hour or an hour later on a basis, and that we are not conflating rural and small. I school bus. I understand that the local authority in will write to my hon. Friend because I want to know the Cumbria has provided small school support through its answer to this question as well. funding formula and that the school has received a one-off schools in financial difficulty allocation to protect The protection for rural academies lies in their seven-year its budget concerns. funding agreement with the Secretary of State, which requires his consent before it can be terminated. 3.47 pm Let me turn to the issue of school funding. The main Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. funding issue faced by rural schools is that, as they are generally much smaller than schools in urban areas, they do not benefit from the same economies of scale. 3.57 pm Our analysis shows that it is small primary schools in On resuming— particular that need additional support to remain viable. The hon. Member for Copeland and my hon. Friend Mr Gibb: It is nice to be back after that short interlude the Member for Penrith and The Border pointed out to vote in the main Chamber. I see that we are now a the discrepancy in funding that Cumbria receives— little more sparsely populated than earlier, but I understand £4,828 per pupil compared with £5,082 on average the pressures on hon. Members, and their commitments nationally. That puts Cumbria 105th out of 151 local in the House. authorities. My hon. Friend the Member for Worcester I want to finish by commenting on the local authority (Mr Walker) has taken an active role, as part of the f40 and Captain Shaw’s school. It is concerned that the group—the Campaign for Fairer Funding in Education—in school has a capacity for 56 pupils but is now teaching trying to address these issues. only 16, which indicates issues about the popularity of the school. The local authority undertook a consultation Mr Robin Walker: I thank the Minister for his kind on the proposed closure of Captain Shaw’s school and words and for giving way. Given that the Government on Monday, after consideration by its scrutiny committee, are preparing to respond to their consultation on the it took the decision to go ahead and publish statutory funding formula and that the previous Government proposals for the closure. Now a statutory process must recognised that the funding formula was in need of be followed, and that will be decided by the local reform, would he agree to meet me and other MPs authority. As a voluntary school, Captain Shaw’s has a representing f40 constituencies to hear the concerns of right of appeal to the independent schools adjudicator the group ahead of the Government’s official response? if it does not agree with the local authority’s decision. The hon. Member for Copeland asked whether Ministers Mr Gibb: I would be delighted to meet my hon. can intervene in the closure process. The Secretary of Friend and other hon. Members who are part of the f40 State cannot normally intervene in closure processes, group to discuss their concerns about the funding. We but can do so under the general powers, where the local 125WH Rural Schools 8 FEBRUARY 2012 126WH authority has not performed the statutory duty or has Haemophilia behaved unreasonably in that judicial review legal sense. I am happy to meet the hon. Gentleman to discuss this, 4.1 pm general funding issues for schools in rural areas and the other matters that he referred to in his speech. Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): I am delighted to serve under you today, Mr Weir, and Finally, I can confirm that the Department for Education I am pleased to have secured this debate on an issue that is very committed to and ambitious for rural communities I know is of interest to a number of Members from all and their schools. We recognise the importance of preserving parties. I pay tribute to the Minister present, the Under- access to a local school for rural communities, and that Secretary of State for Health, the hon. Member for is why we will be contributing to the Government’s Guildford (Anne Milton), who has taken a keen interest rural statement, recognising the importance of ensuring in this area, and with whom I have had a number of that rural communities thrive, benefit from and contribute meetings. I am a little disappointed that the debate is a to sustainable economic growth, and are able to identify short one and that I can give only the headline figures. and address local needs. As part of that, we are working There are many issues to raise, but I will try to concentrate to ensure that there is greater choice in rural areas, that on just a few. standards are improved by increasing the number of academies and free schools, and that the number of rural I pay tribute to my constituent, Glenn Wilkinson, school closures is kept to a minimum. and to his family, who first came to see me in 2010 to tell me their story, and to raise the scandal of how he and thousands of others had received contaminated blood products as part of their treatment as haemophiliacs. There are two main parts to what I want to say today: the first is on the ongoing treatment for haemophiliacs, and the second is on the care, support and treatment offered to people who have contracted viruses such as HIV and hepatitis C through NHS treatment for haemophilia. I also want to pay tribute to the work, over many years, of the Haemophilia Society, and of campaign groups such as TaintedBlood and the Manor House Group, and also to the work of the Newcastle initiative, which was born out of a multidisciplinary workshop on haemophilia care held in the city in autumn 2010. Turning first to treatment, I want to concentrate on the need to ensure that the care and treatment of people affected by bleeding disorders is addressed in the NHS reforms that are currently before Parliament. The haemophilia community has been the subject of what Lord Winston described in his evidence to the Archer inquiry as the “worst treatment disaster in the history of the NHS”. There has been much progress in haemophilia treatment over the past decade, but it is now under threat, as is much else, from the Health and Social Care Bill, and I will go on to explain why. Standards of care vary considerably around the country, and there is the risk that the new commissioning arrangements for specialist services will result in a levelling down, rather than up, in haemophilia care. Haemophilia services are currently commissioned by 10 regional specialist commissioning groups, with funds pooled from their constituent primary care trusts. The Department of Health has also injected extra funding for haemophilia care, which rose to £88 million per annum between 2003 and 2006, to finance the provision to all patients of recombinant rather than plasma-derived clotting factors. That money remains important to the quality of care, but has more recently been absorbed into PCTs’ baseline budgets, and I seek reassurance from the Minister that the money will still be available for haemophilia care post the NHS reforms. I understand that from April 2013 specialist services will become the responsibility of the NHS Commissioning Board rather than of the 10 specialist commissioning groups. That could mean that best practice is spread across England, but equally, there is the danger that under financial pressure standards will be levelled down. 127WH Haemophilia8 FEBRUARY 2012 Haemophilia 128WH

[Diana Johnson] disease contamination, in order to support the need to ensure that a contaminated blood scandal never happens I also want to raise with the Minister the question again? of where responsibility for haemophilia policy will The second part of my speech relates to contaminated sit. Because of the contaminated blood scandal, the blood. In recent months, along with many other Members Department of Health has taken a leading role in the of Parliament, I have been raising the issue of care and development of that policy, and it is unclear whether support offered to victims of the NHS contaminated after the passage of the Health and Social Care that role blood scandal, as it has come to be known over the past will be maintained, or all responsibility will pass to the 30 years. My constituent Glenn Wilkinson has campaigned NHS Commissioning Board. It would help if the Minister tirelessly for proper support for those who have received could set out her understanding of where that responsibility contaminated blood products as part of treatment for will sit. Also, will the twice-yearly liaison meetings haemophilia or via other medical treatments, such as between the Department and the Haemophilia Society blood transfusion in childbirth. continue? Those meetings were established in direct response to the Archer inquiry’s recommendation that This week, Glenn and other campaigners established a statutory committee be established to advise the the contaminated blood campaign. The treatment of Government on clinical, financial and other provisions people who contracted hepatitis C from NHS-administered for people with haemophilia. There is also a call for a blood products has been particularly unfair, and many new national policy statement on haemophilia care to of those people have, unfortunately, died already. The replace health service guidance (93) 30, which is now campaign set up by Glenn is also fighting for an independent nearly 20 years old and no longer reflects best practice. public inquiry on the same lines as the report in Ireland Can the Minister confirm that that will happen at this and the Scottish Penrose inquiry, which I believe is due stage? to conclude shortly. Does the Minister agree with the need to support the development of robust haemophilia networks to combine Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): I congratulate the best of local care with access to tertiary expertise the hon. Lady on securing this excellent and timely 24 hours a day? For example, in a recent survey by the debate. I have worked closely with her on the all-party Haemophilia Society, only 15% of respondents were parliamentary group on haemophilia and contaminated aware of having been offered a care plan. In both the blood. Her constituent was instrumental in setting up report of that survey, entitled “Fit for the Future: the new contaminated blood campaign. It would be Haemophilia Services in the New NHS”, and in the good if the Minister could pledge to meet leaders of the Newcastle initiative’s paper, “Learning from the past new campaign to discuss some of the issues and move to inform the future”, it was found that standards forward. I know that the Minister has met regularly of treatment and care were generally high, which is with some victims of the contaminated blood scandal. very encouraging, but that access to the provision of This would be a good opportunity to pledge to meet associated services, including dentistry, physiotherapy and those campaigners and to keep that good communication psychological support, required significant improvement. going. The reports also concluded that patients must be given a comprehensive care plan, that they must be able to Diana Johnson: I am grateful for that intervention. I access home treatment, and that they must be involved pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman for his involvement in all decisions about all their treatment. Those goals are in and hard work on behalf of the all-party group. He partially but not consistently met under the current makes an excellent point in asking the Minister whether system, and we would, of course, like to see consistency she will find time. I know that she has a busy diary, but across the whole country. she has made time in the past to meet victims and All Governments have said that lessons about treatment Members of Parliament. I hope that that will happen in have been learnt from the contaminated blood scandal future as well. and that there is a need to maintain the highest standards On compensation for those infected by contaminated of care so to avoid any repetition of it. blood products, the Macfarlane Trust was set up in 1988 for people infected with HIV.In 2004, the previous Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I congratulate the Labour Government established the Skipton fund. In hon. Lady on bringing this matter to Westminster Hall. 2010, the incoming Government undertook to review Is she concerned about the level of support given to the support available to individuals. Some progress was haemophiliacs who have received blood contaminated made, but unfortunately, there are still problems with with HIV or hepatitis C? Should an additional level of the system. care and assistance be given to those who suffer through In particular, I am concerned about the fact that the no fault of their own but because of the blood? Government have introduced a two-stage payment for hepatitis C, but the criteria for determining the second stage are still fraught with difficulties for many. As I Diana Johnson: I will come on to deal with the understand it, only about 20% of those people with financial support that is available to individuals who hepatitis C are eligible for assistance via the second have had contaminated blood products and now have stage payment. That must be looked at. My constituent HIV or hepatitis C, because that is an important issue. Glenn has produced evidence that removing the artificial To finish this first section on the treatment of distinction between stages 1 and 2 could be achieved haemophilia, may I ask the Minister to confirm that there and would cost about £22 million, which I am led to should be continued research, for example into sterilisation believe could be reallocated from the under-spend of in areas with a high risk of variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob other available compensatory pockets of money. 129WH Haemophilia8 FEBRUARY 2012 Haemophilia 130WH

Welfare reform is an issue for the group of people we Diana Johnson: The hon. Gentleman makes that point are discussing. We have had a lot of discussion in the powerfully. To quote from the report “Fit for the Future”, House of Commons about the impact of welfare reform to which I referred earlier, an individual was asked what on cancer patients, but there is a special case to be made could be done to improve their quality of life and said: for people with hepatitis C. “I think the most obvious thing to do would be to be spared the ordeal of having to do battle with the Government for Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab): I financial security and not having to justify my right to sickness join other hon. Members in congratulating my hon. benefit”. Friend on obtaining the debate. She speaks powerfully Let us keep working on compensation and related for her constituents, as well as for my constituents, Fred issues to improve life in the longer term for haemophiliacs Bates and Peter Mossman, who will be grateful. and all innocent victims of contaminated blood products. The core theme of my hon. Friend’s powerful speech In the shorter term, when considering NHS and welfare is trust. The trust of that community was shattered by reforms, let us ensure those people’s lives do not get any their experience. This Minister is trying hard to restore worse. that confidence, and her work is important, but is it not the case that the needs of our constituents with haemophilia 4.18 pm who have been infected with hepatitis C and other infections should always come first now, not last, after The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health the dreadful experience that they have had? (Anne Milton): It is a pleasure to serve under you, Mr Weir. I thank the hon. Member for Kingston upon Diana Johnson: My right hon. Friend makes a powerful Hull North (Diana Johnson) for securing the debate. point about trust and the need for us all to work together I am grateful for the opportunity to discuss the issue. to ensure that those people do not suffer further, and I also thank her particularly for her comments about that they get the compensation and support they are the contact that we have had. I will continue to keep in clearly due. contact with her and many other Members who continue to highlight the specific issues suffered by their constituents. I want to concentrate on hepatitis C sufferers for a I know that Glenn Wilkinson and others, some of them minute. I believe that they will be unfairly penalised by not still with us, have worked tirelessly on the issue. the Government’s plans in the Welfare Reform Bill. In a debate in October 2010, I asked the Minister whether it I was interested to hear about the new campaign. Of would be possible for people with hepatitis C and HIV course I will meet its representatives, as I continue to do. to be passported on to the new system. The Haemophilia This is an opportunity to say that Whitehall can be Society has also asked about people with fluctuating distant from the rest of the population. As a Minister, medical conditions, such as bleeding disorders, particularly I will, as all Ministers should, use the opportunity that those with viral infections from contaminated blood Back-Bench and Opposition Members have given us to products. People suffering from fluctuating medical ensure that we stay in touch and do not become insulated conditions such as haemophilia, HIV and hepatitis C from what is happening in people’s lives. tend to have good days and bad days. I wish that I could make up for what happened. It is a The Haemophilia Society recommends that the work very long and sad saga. I can do only what I can do capability assessment be suspended for people with starting from here. I am also aware of the fact that it fluctuating conditions until Professor Harrington has will never really be enough, because I cannot turn back considered the representations of the Disability Benefits the clock, but what matters is that we keep contact going. Consortium. Many people living with hepatitis C in The hon. Lady asked specifically about future particular have been placed in the work-related activity commissioning arrangements and specialised services group of the new employment and support allowance, for haemophilia and other related bleeding disorders. rather than in the support group, where benefits will As she has rightly said, those services are currently continue indefinitely. That has two consequences: it commissioned at a regional level by specialist commissioning means that sufferers will have to have annual assessments, groups. We are working with the NHS to produce a list and that, after 12 months, their benefits will become of specialised services to go in a new set of regulations means-tested. That is effectively penalising people for for the NHS Commissioning Board. At the moment, we prudent behaviour and hard work while they were well are not able to produce a final list, but a list of services enough to be employed. currently set out in the Specialised Services National People diagnosed with hepatitis C know that they are Definitions Set—the titles that the Department of Health unlikely to be able to continue working until normal and others come up with are extraordinary—will form retirement age. Furthermore, people must currently wait a basis for the Commissioning Board’s final list. I up to 11 months for a tribunal appeal. It is to be noted expect that we will be in a position to announce that list that appeals for hepatitis C sufferers have a particularly of services in the coming months, at which point it will high success rate. Automatically moving contaminated be subject to consultation. blood product victims into the support group would The hon. Lady is right to say that that will be an save patients stress and the Government money. opportunity to share best practice. I get frustrated when I hear that some areas do things well, while others do Jim Shannon: I thank the hon. Lady for her graciousness not or do not adopt the same sort of best practice. The in giving way. Many haemophiliacs have suffered from hon. Lady has voiced her concerns and fears that this poverty and discrimination because of contaminated could lead to services being levelled down, but I think blood. Does she not feel for that reason that the there will be an opportunity—I was born an optimist—to Government must urgently address those still suffering share best practice. The financial arrangements for this from such maladies? particular group of people affected by contaminated 131WH Haemophilia8 FEBRUARY 2012 Haemophilia 132WH

[Anne Milton] the value of the lump sum. The support will also make £300,000 available over three years for counselling services. blood will remain an issue for the Department of Health. I find it interesting to look at the uptake for such things, What matters on services, however, is that we ensure because it lets us know when we have hit the target. It is that best practice is shared. so important that I continue to get that feedback. The The hon. Lady mentioned care plans. As somebody combination of fixed and discretionary payments provides who trained as a nurse and who worked in the NHS for flexibility to enable them to be tailored to meet individual 25 years, I get frustrated about this issue, because everybody personal needs. should have a care plan and everybody should be involved I know that there is concern that insufficient support in it. The plan should involve all the different agencies, is available for people who have developed hepatitis C, including the local authority on housing and social particularly the Skipton Fund stage 1 recipients. The services on social care. It could also involve the voluntary scientific and clinical advice that we received during the sector for people who are isolated. A number of agencies review that we conducted in autumn 2010 did not can improve the quality of life and ensure that people’s support regular annual payments to everyone infected lives are fulfilling and meaningful. with hepatitis C, many of whom go on to clear the virus. Today, treatment for haemophilia is much improved. I was delighted to hear from one such person, who has On the issue of blood safety, which the hon. Lady campaigned actively. New treatments are available, raised, some haemophilia patients still need to be treated improving the prognosis for some infected patients, but with products that have been manufactured from human I know—I think the hon. Lady was at the same meeting plasma, but those products are manufactured under as me recently—that concern remains about the cut-off. very strict safeguards. Many haemophilia patients are I know that one of the constituents of the hon. now treated with synthetic products, and both types of Member for Kingston upon Hull North has worked out product are extremely safe. Lessons have been learned. the potential cost of removing the distinction between The shadow of what happened all those years ago stage 1 and stage 2, but the current system of payments continues to hang over us and everybody involved with for hepatitis C is itself based on expert clinical and the safety of blood products. scientific review, which continues to support the two-tier Synthetic and plasma-derived clotting factors are system. Evidence, however, evolves and it would be procured nationally by the Department, with commissioners arrogant of a Minister to say, “That’s it for ever.” It is and clinical and patient representatives involved from terribly important, as I hear about the experiences of an early stage. That means that the NHS buys products the constituents of individual Members, that I continue that are not only cost-effective, but reflect what patients to receive advice, so that what we do is relative to the and doctors actually need. In turn, manufacturers and current expertise. suppliers can better understand what matters to the I apologise to the hon. Lady for not responding to people who use those products. At the end of the day, her e-mail about my meeting with the expert group, but that is what should matter to us. I was delaying my response while departmental officials To further improve patient involvement, the Department worked out the details of the meeting. I am pleased to of Health has brought the Haemophilia Alliance into say that I will write to the relevant patient groups, asking discussions on all the issues that affect haemophilia them to nominate two people—I think that seems about patients. The alliance is made up of patients, clinicians right—to represent them at the meeting. I think that and other professionals involved in haemophilia care, will be important. and I am grateful to those who give up their time to The hon. Lady is probably aware of the Caxton involve themselves in it so positively. Foundation, which provides support tailored to the needs A decontamination research funding initiative worth of those affected. All payments made by the foundation about £2.4 million over four years was announced in are for the trustees to decide. I have met the trustees and 2011. It will address the decontamination of surgical their feedback is important in enabling us to see how instruments, improving the effectiveness of washer the support works. The charity’s objectives are laid out disinfectors and exploring contamination and novel in its trust deed, and it is accountable to the Charity technological approaches to the decontamination of Commission. I do not have any powers to direct it, but endoscopy scopes. These products will also have wider it has to be kept under review. applicability to human prion diseases, such as CJD, and other health-care-associated infections. Some issues are Paul Goggins: On the Caxton Foundation, in future unresolved, because the proven and effective technologies will the Minister take particular notice of the needs of needed to address them do not yet exist. There will carers? It is important that that fund is in a position to continue to be money in research until we are absolutely support carers as well as those directly affected. sure that we have done all we can. When people were infected with hepatitis C and HIV, Anne Milton: Yes. I thank the right hon. Gentleman it also had a significant effect on their families. We often for that point. The discretionary ability to distribute forget that such issues have a massive ripple effect, not funds is important. He is absolutely right to raise the just on immediate family but on distant family. In issue of carers, who are all too often forgotten. January 2011 the Secretary of State announced that we The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North would provide additional support, not just for haemophilia mentioned the capability assessment. She might want to patients, but for anyone infected with HIV or hepatitis C initiate a similar debate on that issue. Health conditions by NHS blood transfusion. That support includes ensuring are not automatically a barrier to work, but we recognise that the annual payment for those infected with HIV is that they are for some people. Indeed, some people will linked to inflation; introducing a similar payment for never work and we must make sure that we support those most seriously affected by hepatitis C; and increasing them. It would probably not be right—this is certainly 133WH Haemophilia 8 FEBRUARY 2012 134WH not in my gift—to give automatic exemptions, but I urge Human Trafficking the hon. Lady to raise the issue with the Secretary of State and the Minister responsible. 4.30 pm Diana Johnson: It would be powerful if the Minister made representations to a fellow Minister. Has she had Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): It is a great the opportunity to do that with her colleagues in the pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Weir. I Department for Work and Pensions? must first thank the Speaker for granting a very important debate on the need for a national rapporteur on human Anne Milton: As the hon. Lady rightly states, in my trafficking. ministerial role, my responsibility is the health and I am delighted to see that the excellent Minister for well-being of the population. I will always continue to Immigration will be replying to the debate. He is well make representations, which often taken place—although known for his commitment to fighting the evil of human sometimes they do not happen in the public eye. Just a trafficking and, along with the Prime Minister, he has word about the Lord Penrose inquiry: we will give the desire to put the United Kingdom at the forefront of assistance, but we will not be commenting on that. I that fight. Sometimes it is like pushing at an open door, have had a few letters about that. I will comment at the and I am really grateful that he is here. I would also like end of the inquiry. to thank James Newhall, my special adviser on human The issue of trust has been raised. I will finish by trafficking, and Tatiana Jordan, who is working in my saying that I know a lot of trust was damaged and that office as an intern. She did much of the research and that has flavoured many things since then for good but drafted this speech. also for ill. That is an extremely difficult issue and I At the beginning of any human trafficking debate, would not presume to say that I can ever get anyone’s thanks must be given to Anthony Steen, the former trust back for what has happened and what successive Member for Totnes. If he had not raised the issue of previous Governments have done or failed to do. I hope human trafficking in the previous Parliament, we would that we will continue to work constructively with other not be where we are today. Anthony has helpfully made hon. Members to ensure that this group of people get a number of suggestions that have been incorporated the help and support that they need. into this speech. As chairman of the all-party group against human trafficking, I would like to say that there is one small area where the Government could move the cause forward, improve the fight against trafficking and, at the same time, save taxpayers’ money. One of the problems surrounding human trafficking is the lack of reliable information and data analysis permitting us to assess the scope of the problem in our country. The solution in the UK to that challenge is to establish an independent national rapporteur.

Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): I congratulate my hon. Friend on introducing the debate and on the excellent work he is doing as chairman of the all-party group against human trafficking. Does he agree that a positive example has been provided by the Dutch national rapporteur in this area, who since 2000 has made some 200 recommendations to the Dutch Government, many of which have led to improvements in Government policy in the field of human trafficking in that country?

Mr Bone: I am very glad that I gave way to my hon. Friend who is, of course, a very worthy colleague of mine on the all-party group. She is absolutely right about the Dutch rapporteur, about whom I will say a bit more later in my speech. An e-petition on the subject reads as follows: “Human trafficking is serious, international, organised crime. The money generated from it (an estimated $32 billion per annum worldwide) is only marginally less than from arms dealing and drug smuggling. Tackling it is a priority for all political parties and the current Government. Much effort is expended by NGOs, Police, Social Services and other key Government agencies, to tackle human trafficking in the UK and protect its victims. However currently there is no independent monitoring system to ensure that work is effective and coordinated. We call on the Government to establish an independent watchdog, in line with the recommendations of the CoE Convention on trafficking in human beings, to which the UK is a party, to monitor the 135WH Human Trafficking8 FEBRUARY 2012 Human Trafficking 136WH

[Mr Bone] states could opt into. It was absolutely right for the Government to take their time to consider whether we performance of key agencies ensuring that victims’ needs and should opt in. The all-party group urged the Government experience are central. The watchdog should report to Parliament to opt into the directive, and then they decided to do so. on a regular basis to ensure transparency and accountability.” That is exactly how we should consider EU directives. If Like many other e-petitions, once it reaches 100,000 it is in the interests of the country to opt in, we should signatures, the Backbench Business Committee can consider do so. The crucial point is that, having opted into it, we it for a debate. I am on the Backbench Business Committee, have to implement it in full. If we accept that we must too. opt into the directive, then we must do so in full. I am pleased to be able to say to the Minister that that What we are doing? Maybe we should be looking at e-petition is well on the way to succeeding. This morning, what gaps there are—that is probably better. There is I checked how many signatures there were and I am currently no independent oversight of the human trafficking pleased to say that there were 116. That highlights the situation. A national rapporteur, or equivalent mechanism, problem of the issue. Human trafficking is evil, wicked must be independent from Government. If they are not and underground. It is modern-day slavery, but so few independent, their work will not be considered authentic, people know about it. A national rapporteur would unite as it will always be felt that the Government have all our anti-trafficking efforts under one roof and guide somehow rigged the figures, and that whatever view is us through the main challenges, making recommendations expressed will represent a spin on Government policy. on measures that might be required on a policy level to No Government organisation will criticise its own protect victims’ rights and prosecute the traffickers. Government. As stated by our gutsy Home Secretary in “Human What do we have at the moment? We have the Trafficking: the Government’s Strategy”: Government’s interdepartmental ministerial group— “The UK has a good record in tackling human trafficking...We something Jim Hacker might have thought up. It is need to do more to stop this horrific crime…By applying to opt in considered to be the national rapporteur’s equivalent to the EU Directive on human trafficking, we have demonstrated mechanism in the UK. This august body has only met our commitment to working with other countries in Europe to twice in the past 18 months. However, the good news drive up standards across the continent in tackling trafficking.” is that it has 20 Ministers on it—fantastic. All these Ministers getting together to discuss human trafficking— David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): I congratulate first class. There is only one slight problem. At the two the hon. Gentleman on obtaining the debate. May I put meetings that have occurred, two thirds of the Ministers on the record my appreciation and that of the people of have given their apologies. I really do not think that we Northern Ireland for his attendance at a conference last can claim that that is working in any way whatever. Friday night in Northern Ireland that brought a lot of groups together? We would like to put on the record our The Minister for Immigration kindly wrote to me on appreciation for his attendance and for him speaking at 1 February, recognising the failure of the current system. that debate. I am sure that he will agree that we need to He said: do something drastically, whether through a rapporteur “I will be reviewing the role and remit of the IDMG to ensure or whatever, because, as he has highlighted, there are that it can effectively carry out the Rapporteur function in line 116 signatures and we have a long way to go to get with the requirements of the Directive.” 100,000. Well, I can solve the Minister’s problem. I can make his work load less. I can make his day happier. Instead of Mr Bone: I say this deliberately: my hon. Friend is trying to bring together lots of disinterested Ministers being very modest. He set up a conference on human and meeting once every nine months to be the equivalent trafficking in Portadown last Friday. Some 150 people of the national rapporteur, why not just have a national were there. There were four main charities: Women’s rapporteur? Aid, A21, Stop the Traffick and the other important The Netherlands, where a national rapporteur was one I have just forgotten—[Interruption.] Against Child established 10 years ago, has got a grip on the scale, Trafficking. Senior police officers from Northern Ireland variety and changing face of human trafficking, and did a presentation and there was a short speech from can target their resources accordingly.The Dutch rapporteur me. We heard from Kate, who is a 21-year-old who is a former judge with a small professional team. She is rowed across the Atlantic with four other young women independent from Government and her mandate and to raise awareness of human trafficking. Let us imagine authority is recognised by every parliamentarian. Her what it must have been like rowing across the Atlantic, annual report to Parliament includes information from throwing up in the boat and all manner of other things. various sources, such as the police, immigration service, That shows the guts of those young people. I was border agency, social services, NGOs, churches and delighted when my hon. Friend presented an award to civil society. her. He is a shining example of what Members can do in Here is the latest Dutch rapporteur’s report, full of their constituencies. I have said to him—I genuinely statistics, analysis and recommendations. It is debated mean this—that it was the best presentation I have seen. in the Dutch Parliament. It is recognised by the As usual, he is being unduly modest. Government, NGOs and media as the authentic guide To return to the issue of having a rapporteur, the EU to trafficking in the Netherlands. When I first met the directive calls for the establishment of a national rapporteur Dutch rapporteur a few years ago, her office consisted or, as the Minister is probably going to remind me, an of herself and one researcher-secretary operating from equivalent. I consider most of what the EU does to be a small office and costing next to nothing to run. Today, wasteful, anti-democratic and not to be touched with a the Dutch Government have recognised the huge advantage bargepole. However, in this case, the EU did not make of having a national rapporteur and have extended her the directive compulsory; it was something that member remit twice. She now investigates not only human trafficking, 137WH Human Trafficking8 FEBRUARY 2012 Human Trafficking 138WH but child pornography and sexual violence against children. perhaps, at most, £250,000—and establish a national The Dutch rapporteur fulfils the EU requirement and is rapporteur. It would do all the things we want at the cheap. More importantly, she has caused a step change fraction of the cost. The Minister could then go back to in the Dutch fight against human trafficking. the Chancellor and say, “By the way, Chancellor, here How would a rapporteur help here? We have no idea is £500,000 back that I have found.” I know his career of the scale of modern-day slavery in the UK. However, prospects are good, but that would be an added incentive every so often, new information raises its head above for the Prime Minister. the parapet. For example, it was in the news recently Three components are required for a national rapporteur that at least 32 men, who were trafficked to six European to make an effective contribution to combating human countries, including Sweden, Norway and Belgium, to trafficking, as opposed to simply writing reports that work on building sites, were duped, deceived, had their gather dust: independence from Government; unlimited passports taken away and were not paid. Another example and direct access to all relevant information, not just is from Bedfordshire. A group of Englishmen were Government information; and annual reports that should abused by other Englishmen. The vulnerable victims, be made public, with their recommendations debated in some of whom were starving, had been lured from soup Parliament. It is important to keep in mind that, while a kitchens, benefit offices and hostels with the promise of report by the national rapporteur on the status of paid jobs and shelter. human trafficking is designed to cover the scope of the problem and the changing trends as well as the appropriate Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab): I congratulate responses, it should not lose sight of the ultimate goal: the hon. Gentleman on securing the debate. Does he to end this vicious modern-day slavery. recognise the urgency of the situation, given that we have The UK Government’s human trafficking strategy the Olympics this year and the Commonwealth games clearly states its main four objectives and how to achieve in Glasgow in two years’ time? During such international them. If established in the UK, a national rapporteur sporting events, there is an increase in organised crime could gather and synchronise the information to assess and an increased risk of human trafficking. Therefore, the Government’s progress on its timely and efficient we need a coherent strategy from the Government, implementation, make recommendations on where more working alongside the Scottish Government, to deal attention and action were needed, and ensure the adequacy with the Olympics and the Commonwealth games in and appropriateness of services provided to victims of 2014. trafficking. Mr Bone: The hon. Gentleman is spot on when he Another point that was brought to my attention is says that this is organised crime. Where they see a big that the Dutch Government discovered that having a venue, they see money, and of course it is a danger. The national rapporteur actually helped them. When outside Government are working to prevent that, but I still have bodies said that the Dutch Government were not doing my concerns about what might happen. enough, they could point to the rapporteur’s report and say, “Yes, we are doing the job.” The latest example of human trafficking, which we discussed with my hon. Friend the Member for Upper In conclusion, not only am I being a good European Bann (David Simpson), was revealed last week. For the today, and not only am I making the Minister’s life first time in Northern Ireland, there was a conviction easier—[Interruption.] The hon. Member for Strangford for human trafficking. A legitimate restaurant owner (Jim Shannon) says that there is a first time for everything. from Hungary brought young girls from eastern Europe Not only am I saving the taxpayer money, but I am into Northern Ireland, with the promise of paid work in arguing for a big step towards ending the evil of human his restaurant. They arrived all very happy. They then trafficking. had their passports and documents taken away, and were forced into a brothel. When I say a brothel, it is a Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab) house in a road where they were locked in a room for rose— 24 hours a day. Some 70 women were trafficked. I use the word “women”, but I bet that some of them were Mr Mike Weir (in the Chair): I cannot call the hon. actually technically children. Gentleman unless he has the permission of the initiator I am conscious that I am eating into the Minister’s of the debate and the Minister. Does he have the time. I wanted to say a little about the UK Human permission of both? Trafficking Centre, which has not worked as well as it should have done. Michael Connarty: A minute of their time. Mr Mike Weir (in the Chair): Order. There is slightly more time because of the earlier Division. If the hon. Mr Mike Weir (in the Chair): But has that been granted? Gentleman would like to continue for a minute, I will not stop him. The Minister for Immigration (Damian Green): indicated dissent. Mr Bone: Thank you, Mr Weir. Do not encourage me. Mr Mike Weir (in the Chair): I am sorry; I cannot call The UKHTC costs £1.6 million a year and employs the hon. Gentleman. 30 people. Support for victim care, which the Government have increased, costs nearly £2 million a year and services Michael Connarty: As vice-chair of the all-party nearly 1,500 people. There seems to be a little discrepancy parliamentary group on human trafficking, I find that there. We could take a fraction of that £1.6 million— quite appalling. 139WH Human Trafficking8 FEBRUARY 2012 Human Trafficking 140WH

4.50 pm understanding of their challenges and issues to help inform how we might best support anti-trafficking efforts The Minister for Immigration (Damian Green): Iam around the world. We recently agreed an awareness-raising happy to assure the hon. Member for Linlithgow and campaign with a major supermarket in Lincolnshire to East Falkirk (Michael Connarty) that I will be generous provide information to potential vulnerable workers in in allowing interventions, even though I am restricted the agricultural sector. by time, because I appreciate his contribution and his long-standing interest in this subject. Officials continue to review and refine the national referral mechanism to ensure that victims can be identified I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for appropriately and to ensure that the picture on the Wellingborough (Mr Bone) on making a uniquely Europhile extent of human trafficking within this country is clearer. speech, on securing this debate and on his work for the all-party group. I am grateful for his kind remarks, My hon. Friend was disapprobatory about the UK although I am deeply worried when he says that lobbying Human Trafficking Centre. Clearly, it can get better and me is like pushing at an open door. I make it clear to all is doing so, but improvements can always be made. That non-governmental organisations that that should not is what we are trying to do in respect of its intelligence be taken as precedent. function and organised crime group mapping, which There is, rightly, a lot of interest in this issue. Everything will help inform the Government’s view of the priority that my hon. Friend said about its seriousness and the areas to combat human trafficking. importance of having an effective anti-trafficking strategy is, of course, true. The one point where I would slightly Michael Connarty: I am reminded of the adage that a disagree with him, apart from on the central argument—I camel is a horse designed by a committee. On 18 January, will come on to why I disagree with him about that—is the Minister said in his response to the Organisation for on the lack of public awareness. It has struck me, over Security and Co-operation in Europe’s special representative the past few years, not least through the actions of the and co-ordinator for combating traffic in human beings: all-party group, NGOs and successive Ministers in both “Progress is monitored by a strategic board of cross-Departmental Governments, that there is consciousness throughout officials which meets on a six-weekly basis. This board reports to the country of the evil of trafficking and the fact that the biannual Inter-Departmental Ministerial Group…on human it is present not just in our inner cities and the sex trafficking.” industry, but in many small communities, including rural communities, and all parts of the United Kingdom, That seems to be a larger number of people than is as we have heard. Indeed, it is everywhere. That required to do a job, which, as the chair of the all-party consciousness has grown in recent years, which is good, group, the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone), because we will be much more effective in fighting said, is done by a co-ordinator—a proper rapporteur trafficking if, out there, the general public knows about it. with a single purpose, independent of the Government. In that context, it is fair for me to outline some progress that we have made since we published the human trafficking Damian Green: Let me move directly on to the central strategy in July last year, which focuses, as my hon. point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Friend said, on four key themes: improving victim Wellingborough about whether we need a rapporteur identification and care; enhancing our ability to act added to our armoury. Obviously, this matter arises from early; smarter action at the border; and more co-ordination the directive that we have now opted into. I am grateful of our law enforcement efforts in the UK. to him for his support, not just for our opting in, but for the way that we did it—at the end of the process when Officials have been working across the Government had we ensured that it was appropriate and helpful to to build a more collective and collaborative response to this country to do so. fighting human trafficking, bringing in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, the Department for International We have given much thought to how we implement Development, the Department for Education and the the directive. We are about to make changes to primary Department of Health. Equally importantly—I take legislation, with amendments to the Protection of Freedoms the point that there must be collaboration between the Bill, to ensure that we are compliant with those parts of Government and extra-governmental bodies—this response the directive to which our laws are not compliant at the is specifically supported by stakeholder groups on specific moment, and we are making an initial assessment of themes, attended by a range of NGOs. The current where we may need to introduce secondary legislation. groups are focusing on five key areas within the strategy: We are determined to ensure that everything is in place raising public awareness; working with the private sector; by April 2013, which is when we need to be completely working with child victims; tackling demand; and compliant. international engagement. Those groups have already Article 19 allows the setting up of a national rapporteur instigated action to support the aims of the strategy. or equivalent mechanism. I am unpersuaded by my For example, they are considering how we can expand hon. Friend’s example. He was mildly humorous about the awareness-raising initiative with airlines—something the inter-departmental ministerial group. I think that that I helped to launch with Virgin Airlines as part of I am entitled, in return, to note that of the 27 nations in the activities on the most recent national anti-slavery which he could have found examples of people being day. inspired to greater efforts on anti-trafficking by having We have already provided additional information to a rapporteur, he adduced precisely one. I am disappointed posts in other countries to raise awareness of trafficking on behalf of Finland, which is the only other country in and to support collaborative working with NGOs in the European Union that has a national rapporteur. I those countries. Part of that work includes gathering note that my hon. Friend did not come up with any information from posts, so that we have a better great advantages from the Finnish system. 141WH Human Trafficking8 FEBRUARY 2012 Human Trafficking 142WH

Mr Bone: On that important point, the Minister is role. To be clear, the directive does not stipulate that right; of course there are two countries that do it, but the national rapporteur or equivalent mechanism must the Prime Minister wants—I hope that the Minister be independent of the Government. Indeed, we already would want to support the Prime Minister—to make have in the UK a vast array of extremely effective the UK the leading country in the fight against human organisations independent of the Government that produce trafficking. With a rapporteur, we could take that lead. assessments of human trafficking inside the country and internationally. We of course consider proposals Damian Green: I share the ambition to make the UK and recommendations in each report, and we will strengthen a leading beacon, showing people how we can effectively our response accordingly. In carrying out the rapporteur fight trafficking. So let me get to the point of why I function, the group’s report will not only consider trends think that a rapporteur would be a fifth wheel on the but will take account of assessments and recommendations coach. from other reports and of the Government’s progress in The interdepartmental ministerial group, which meets delivering their strategy. every six months, is effective with support from the UK To make those pledges concrete, I intend that the Human Trafficking Centre, which is the central repository group will produce an initial report following the first of data—my hon. Friend made that important point—and anniversary of the publication of the strategy, after the it can effectively perform the national rapporteur function, Olympic games, to ensure that the progress made on the because apart from the ministerial meetings, officials strategy and any learning or experiences gained from from across Whitehall meet once every two months to the games can be captured and inform our assessment support the ministerial group, to inform it and to provide of such work. an update. As the problems that might come about because of I agree that the current structure is not perfect, and the Olympics have been brought up, let me say that of I intend to make some improvements, so that it can course we have a threat assessment of the Olympics, become more effective. First, I will consider my hon. including the possibilities of trafficking. I am pleased to Friend’s point about the frequency of the group’s meetings, say that, at the moment, there is no evidence of extra so that it can maintain effective oversight across the trafficking activity as a result of the Olympic games, Government of the work on combating human trafficking. which would have been intuitively plausible because Secondly, I will review the group’s membership to ensure there has been evidence of trafficking at previous World that we have the right people in the room discussing the cups, but they attract a different kind of audience from issues across the Government. I recently wrote to group the Olympics. We are now over the construction phase—the members emphasising the importance of their regular venues are built—which is another time that people attendance: I take the point that my hon. Friend made were worried about, and I think that the sort of people in that respect, as well. Thirdly, I will revise the terms who attend the Olympics will provide less of an incentive. of reference for the group to reflect the required functions More to the point, so far the police detect no evidence of the rapporteur role, so that it can effectively assess of any large-scale increase in trafficking activity related trends and measure the actions taken to address them. to the games. As part of the existing arrangements, the group receives I thank my hon. Friend for his continuing concern information on human trafficking trends from the UK with and commitment to the fight against human trafficking Human Trafficking Centre, which informs our approach. and others present in the Chamber today. The appropriate If particular issues are raised, the group will be able to structures are in place and will get better, and they commission further data from the HTC. To that end, provide the right oversight in this area. It almost goes my officials are working with the centre to establish without saying, but I can assure hon. Members that the consistent data requirements to support the group in Government continue to recognise the importance carrying out that role. In line with the requirements set of fighting such a terrible crime and ending the plight of out in article 19, the group will publish an annual report far too many vulnerable adults and children. I will bend on the assessment of trends in human trafficking, as all my efforts to ensure that we are as effective as well as on anti-trafficking activities, and will work with possible in continuing that fight. the NGOs to achieve that. Question put and agreed to. In recent debates, as well as in this one, questions have been asked about the independence of the ministerial 5.3 pm group and about the requirements of the rapporteur Sitting adjourned.

15WS Written Ministerial Statements8 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 16WS Written Ministerial TREASURY Parliamentary Questions Statements The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Miss Chloe Wednesday 8 February 2012 Smith): The Treasury has conducted its annual indexation exercise of the cost of oral and written parliamentary questions so as to ensure that these costs are increased in line with increases in underlying costs. The revised costs, which will apply from today, are: ATTORNEY-GENERAL Oral Questions £450 Written Questions £164 The disproportionate cost threshold (DCT) for written Freedom of Information questions will increase to £850.

Terrorist Asset Freezing The Attorney-General (Mr Dominic Grieve): Ihave today given the Information Commissioner a certificate under section 53 of the Freedom of Information Act 2000 The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Mark (“the Act”). The certificate relates to the Decision Notices Hoban): Following consultation with other relevant dated 12 September 2011 (ref. FS50347714) and 13 Departments and agencies, the Treasury is today publishing September 2011 (ref. FS50363603). It is my view, as an the Government’s response to David Anderson’s first accountable person under the Act, that there was no report on the operation of the Terrorist Asset-Freezing failure by the Cabinet Office to comply with section 1(1 etc. Act 2010. This will be laid before the House today )(b) of the Act in these cases by withholding copies of as a Command Paper. the minutes of the Cabinet Ministerial Committee on Devolution to Scotland and Wales and the English Regions (DSWR) from 1997 and 1998. The consequence of my giving the Information Terrorist Asset Freezing Commissioner this certificate is that the Commissioner’s Decision Notices, which ordered disclosure of most of the DSWR minutes, cease to have effect. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Mark Hoban): Under the Terror Asset-Freezing etc. Act 2010 A copy of the certificate has been laid before each (“TAFA 2010”), the Treasury is required to report House of Parliament. I have additionally placed a copy quarterly to Parliament on its operation of the UK’s of the certificate and a detailed statement of the reasons asset-freezing regime mandated by UN Security Council for my decision in the Libraries of both Houses, the Resolution 1373. Vote Office and the Printed Paper Office. This is the fourth report under the Act and it covers This is only the third time the power under section 53 the period from 1 October 2011 to 31 December 2011. (otherwise known as the “veto”) has been exercised This report also covers the UK implementation of the since the Act came into force in 2005. In that time, UN-Al-Qaeda asset freezing regime. central Government have released an enormous amount Follow up to independent reviewer’s report of information in response to FOI requests—including in October 2010 the minutes of the Cabinet discussion Following recommendations made by David Anderson of the Westland affair. QC, the independent reviewer, in his report on the operation of the Terrorist Asset-Freezing etc. Act 2010 My decision to exercise the veto in this case was not published on 15 December 2011, the Treasury has revised taken lightly, but in accordance with the Statement of the content and format of the quarterly report to provide Government Policy on the use of the executive override additional information. as it relates to information falling within the scope of This report has been revised to take account of the section 35(1) of the Act. I have placed a copy of that independent reviewer’s recommendation to publish more policy in the Libraries of both Houses. information about the operation of the domestic asset- In line with that policy, I have both assessed the freezing regime. This information can be found in the balance of the public interest in disclosure and non- table and text below. In accordance with the disclosure of these minutes, and considered whether recommendation at paragraph 11.5 of the independent this case meets the criteria set out in the Statement of reviewer’s report, the lists at the end of this statement Government Policy for use of the veto. provide a breakdown by name of all those designated I consider that the public interest falls in favour of by the UK and the EU in pursuance of UN Security non-disclosure and that disclosure would be damaging Council Resolution 1373. to the doctrine of collective responsibility and detrimental The Treasury has also decided to report more fully to the effective operation of Cabinet government. I have on the operation of the EU asset-freezing regime in the concluded, in light of the criteria set out in the Government’s UK under the EU Regulation (EC) 2580/2001 which policy, that this constitutes an exceptional case and that implements the UNSCR 1373 against external terrorist the exercise of the veto is warranted. A detailed explanation threats to the EU. Under this regime, the EU has of the basis on which I arrived at the conclusion that the responsibility for designations and the Treasury has veto should be used is set out in my statement of responsibility for licensing and compliance with the reasons. regime in the UK under part 1 of TAFA 2010. 17WS Written Ministerial Statements8 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 18WS

The Treasury has published its response to the The Al-Qaeda (Asset-Freezing) Regulations 2011 were independent reviewer’s report today (8 February 2012) introduced in November to replace the Al-Qaeda and and the next quarterly report will provide an update on Taliban (Asset-Freezing) Regulations 2010, following implementation of other recommendations which impact the split of the al-Qaeda and Afghanistan regimes on the operation of the asset-freezing regime in the UK. agreed by the UN in June 2011. Additional information, where available, is also provided Legal Challenges for the al-Qaeda regime in the revised format adopted Two legal challenges against designations made under to meet the independent reviewer’s recommendation. both the Terrorism (United Nations Measures) Order The following table sets out the key asset-freezing 2009 and TAFA 2010 were ongoing in the quarter activity in the UK during the quarter ending 31 December covered by this report. There were no specific developments 2011: during the quarter in the cases brought by Zana Rahim and Ismail Bhuta. No new challenges were made against EU Reg(EC) the Treasury during the quarter. 2580/ Al-QaedaRregime Proceedings TAFA 2010 2001 UNSCR1989 In the quarter to 31 December 2011, no proceedings Assets frozen (as £33,000 £11,000 £72,0001 were initiated in respect of breaches of the prohibitions at 31/12/2011) of the Act or the Al-Qaeda (Asset-Freezing) Regulations Number of 70 10 39 2011. accounts frozen (i) Designated persons under TAFA 2010 by name2 in UK (at 31/12/11) INDIVIDUALS New accounts 00 0 frozen Hamed ABDOLLAHI Accounts 40 2Bilal Talal ABDULLAH unfrozen Habib AHMED Number of 42 51 343 Imad Khalil AL-ALAMI designations Abdula Ahmed ALI (at 31/12/11) Abdelkarim Hussein AL-NASSER (i) new 55 1 designations Ibrahim Salih AL-YACOUB (during Q4 2011) ManssorARBABSIAR (ii) Delistings 1 1 1 Selman BOZKUR (iii) individuals in 15 0 3 UsamaHAMDAN custody in UK Nabeel HUSSAIN (iv) individuals in 50 7Tanvir HUSSAIN UK, not in ZahoorlQBAL detention Umar ISLAM (v) individuals 14 26 242 overseas Hasan IZZ-AL-DIN (vi) groups 8 (0 in UK) 25 91 (2 in UK) ParvizKHAN Renewal of 1 n/a n/a Waheed Arafat KHAN designation Osman Adam KHATIB General Licences (i) 0 Musa Abu MARZOUK Issued in Q4 (ii) 5 GulamMASTAFA Amended (iii) 0 Khalid MISHAAL (iii) Revoked Khalid Shaikh MOHAMMED Specific Licences: Ramzi MOHAMMED (i) Issued (i) 4 (i) 0 (i) 1 Sultan MUHAMMAD (ii) Revoked (ii) 9 (ii) 0 (ii) 2 YassinOMAR 1 This figure reflects the most up-to-date account balances available and includes approximately $64,000 of suspected terrorist funds Hussein OSMAN frozen in the UK. This has been converted using exchange rates as of Zana Abdul RAHIM 04/01/12. Muktar Mohammed SAID Assad SARWAR The key areas of activity during the quarter were: Ibrahim SAVANT The Treasury made five new designations under TAFA 2010. Abdul Reza SHAHLM These were in respect of Hamed Abdollahi, Manssor Arbabsiar, All Gholam SHAKURI Abdul Reza Shahlai, Ali Gholam Shakuri, and Qasem Soleimani; Qasem SOLEIMANI and were the first new designations made under TAFA 2010. Waheed ZAMAN The five individuals were subsequently listed under EU Regulation 2580/2001.

Two reviews of existing designations were completed during ENTITIES the quarter, which resulted in the delisting of Ismail Bhuta 1. BASQUE FATHERLAND AND LIBERTY (ETA) and the renewal of designation of Bilal Abdullah. 2. EJERCITO DE LIBERACION NACIONAL (ELN) Nine licences were revoked following the delisting of Ismail Bhuta. 3. FUERZAS ARMADAS REVOLUCIONARIAS DE COLOMBIA (FARC) 4. HIZBALLAH MILITARY WING, INCLUDING EXTERNAL SECURITY The decrease in balances since the last quarter follows delistings made and licences issued (under which frozen funds have ORGANISATION been released). 5. HOLY LAND FOUNDATION FOR RELIEF AND DEVELOPMENT 19WS Written Ministerial Statements8 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 20WS

6. POPULAR FRONT FOR THE LIBERATION OF PALESTINE - Devrimci Halk Kurtulu Partisi-Cephesi—DHKP/C (Revolutionary GENERAL COMMAND (PFLP-GC) People’s Liberation Army/Front/Party) * 7. POPULAR FRONT FOR THE LIBERATION OF PALESTINE (PFLP) Sendero Luminoso (SL) (Shining Path) Stichting Al Aqsa 8. SENDERO LUMINOSO (SL) Teyrbazen azadiya Kurdistan(TAK) 2For full listing details please refer to: http://www.hm- treasury.gov.uk/d/terrorism.htm. 3for full listing details please refer to: http://www.hm- (ii) Persons designated by the EU under Council Regulation treasury.gov.uk/d/terrorism.htm. (EC)2580/20013 *EU listing rests on UK designation under TAFA 2010.

Hamed ABDOLLAHI* Rabah Naami ABOU DEFENCE Maisi ABOUD Abdelkarim Hussein AL-NASSER* Armed Forces Pension Scheme Ibrahim Salih AL YACOUB* ManssorARBABSIAR* Kamel ARIOUA The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Philip Hammond): Mohamad ASLI Changes to the armed force compensation scheme Rabah ASLI introduced in May 2011, and armed forces redundancies Mohammed BOUYERI as a result of the strategic defence and security review, have increased the resource annually managed expenditure Noureddine DARIB (AME) and net cash requirements for the armed forces Abderrahmane DJABALI retired pay, pensions etc. estimate in a manner which Sofiane Yacine FAHAS could not have been foreseen at the time of the main * Hasan IZZ-AL-DIN estimate in April. Parliamentary approval for additional * 15. Khalid Shaikh MOHAMMED resource AME of £1,340,000,000 has been sought in FatehMOKTARI the supplementary estimate for armed forces retired FaridNOUARA pay, pensions etc. laid before the House today. HoarlRESSOUS However, the rate of spend under this vote has also 19. Noureddine SEDKAOUI been faster than anticipated at the start of the year, for Abdelghani SELMANI example, because payment of the retrospective additional Sofiane SENOUCI compensation payments as part of the implementation Abdul Reza SHAHLAI* of Lord Boyce’s recommendations for reform of the All Gholam SHAKURI* AFCS, has proceeded more quickly than expected. The Qasem SOLEIMANI* Department therefore needs to make arrangements to Mohammed TINGUALI ensure the financial obligations of the armed forces Jason Theodore WALTERS pension scheme can continue to be met up until the supplementary estimate is approved. Parliamentary approval for additional resources of £1,340,000,000 is sought in the supplementary estimate for the armed forces retired Abu Nidal Organisation (ANO) pay, pensions etc. Pending that approval, urgent expenditure Al-Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigade estimated at £340,000,000 will be met by repayable cash Al-Aqsa e.V. advances from the Contingencies Fund. Al-Takfir and Al-Hijra Babbar Khalsa ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE Communist Party of the Philippines, including New People’s Army (NPA), Philippines Gama’a al-lslamiyya (a.k.a. Al-Gama’a al-lslamiyya) (Islamic Group— EU Energy Council IG) Islami Büyük Dogu Akincilar Cephesi (IBDA-C) (Great Islamic Eastern Warriors Front) The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Hamas, including Hamas-Izz al-Din al-Qassem Climate Change (Charles Hendry): In advance of the Hizbul Mujahideen(HM) forthcoming Energy Council in Brussels on 14 February, Hofstadgroep I am writing to outline the agenda items to be discussed. Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development* The first substantive item on the agenda will be a International Sikh Youth Federation (ISYF) debate on the proposal for a regulation on guidelines Khalistan Zindabad Force (KZF) for trans-European energy infrastructure. The UK welcomes Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) (a.k.a. KONGRA-GEL) proposals to reduce investment barriers for energy Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE) infrastructure development and to build on best practice Ejército de Liberación Nacional (National Liberation Army)* to help streamline permitting processes across the Union, Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ) particularly for cross-border projects. We recognise that considerable investment in energy infrastructure will be Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP)* needed between now and 2020 to meet the agreed EU Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine—General Command (PFLP-GC)* and UK core objectives of competitiveness, sustainability Fuerzas armadas revolucionarias de Colombia (FARC)* and security of supply as well as meeting the 2020 targets on renewables, energy efficiency and CO2 reduction. 21WS Written Ministerial Statements8 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 22WS

However, we have some concerns that in some areas the end of certain market measures such as the sugar quota, proposals and time-schedules appear overly prescriptive. but restated the need for a balanced sugar market which The council will also hold a debate on the Europe allowed the EU sugar beet and cane refining industries 2020 strategy, which will form the Energy Council’s to compete on a level playing field. Finally, the UK contribution to the European semester exercise (the EU stated that the existing Producer Organisation model initiative to improve economic policy coordination). had been difficult to implement in member states and The council will consider the contribution of energy needed clarification. efficiency and renewable energy to growth and jobs. Member states accepted the requirement for a safety The presidency will then report on the progress of net for farmers, but were split over the best ways to negotiation of the draft directive on energy efficiency. achieve this. The major wine producing member states Over lunch, Ministers will discuss the remaining potential regretted the proposed end to vine planting rights, but areas of concern in the draft directive in terms of scope, welcomed the formation of a high level group. A large requirements and implementation of the proposal and group wanted to continue with sugar beet quotas. The how they can be best addressed before negotiations Producer Organisations and Inter-Branch Organisations begin with the European Parliament. We support the proposals were generally well-received, although many general level of ambition in the draft directive although member states rejected the idea of compulsory recognition. we have concerns over the level of prescription. We are There were two items under any other business. The pleased with the direction of discussions in council, first saw a Commission presentation of its strategy for which reflects these concerns. the protection and welfare of animals 2012-15. There There will be reports by the presidency on the progress was some reference to poor implementation of the ban of negotiations on the draft decision on an information on conventional cages for laying hens, and to the importance exchange mechanism on intergovernmental agreements of maintaining the deadline for compliance with the and on preparations of the Rio+20 UN conference on sow stall ban in 2013. sustainable development. The commission will report The second any other business item was information on the activities of the Electricity Co-ordination Group from Holland on discovery of the Schmallenberg virus and on a number of international energy relations in Holland, Germany and Belgium. Holland called for issues. a monitoring plan and EU funding to tackle the disease and for it be classified notifiable. The UK also reported discovery of four cases of Schmallenberg but stated that while EU-wide monitoring, research, and co-ordination ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS was important there was not enough evidence to make the disease formally notifiable. The Commission stressed the need to act proportionately and avoid unnecessary Agriculture and Fisheries Council disruptions to the market and trade.

The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman): My right hon. HOME DEPARTMENT Friend the Minister of State for Agriculture and Food (Jim Paice) represented the UK on agriculture matters Firearms at the Agricultural and Fisheries Council on Monday 23 January. Stewart Stevenson MSP and Alun Davies AM were also in attendance. The Secretary of State for the Home Department The meeting opened with a presentation of the Danish (Mrs Theresa May): Today I am launching a consultation presidency’s priorities for the first half of 2012. Progress on whether we need to change existing legislation or on CAP reform negotiations and political agreement on sentencing powers in relation to importation and supply the common fisheries policy were the two main objectives, of illegal firearms. The consultation will run until 8 May with simplification of food legislation, the technical 2012 and a consultation paper is available on the Home alignment of legislation with the Lisbon treaty, and a Office website. A copy of the consultation document focus on animal welfare also mentioned. will also be placed in the House Library. The main agenda item was a CAP reform discussion The United Kingdom has some of the toughest firearms focusing on the Single Common Market Organisation laws in the world, sending a clear message that society (SCMO) proposal. The Commission stated that the will not tolerate gun crime. However while gun crime proposal would refine existing market intervention measures, represents only a small proportion of all recorded crime, enabling the EU to react more effectively to agricultural it has a serious impact on the communities affected by crises, and introducing a new off-budget crisis reserve. it. We believe that individuals who, while not using the The Commission called for Producer Organisations (PO) firearms themselves, are responsible for making them and Inter-Branch Organisations (IBO) to be allowed to available to other criminals should face tough and benefit from clearer rules on competition law allowing appropriate sentences. them to plan effectively and adjust their production. That is why in our “Ending Gang and YouthViolence” The Commission also announced the creation of a high report, the Government committed to undertaking further level group to examine the EU wine sector. work to assess whether it is necessary and proportionate The UK acknowledged the requirement for a safety to introduce new offences for the supply and importation net but stressed the need to differentiate between market of firearms. The Government want to ensure that volatility and a genuine crisis; and disagreed that a crisis appropriate offences and sentences are in place to address reserve should be off-budget. The UK welcomed the gun crime and support practitioners in their work. 23WS Written Ministerial Statements8 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 24WS

Before committing to any action we want to ensure we £0.9 million transferred to DEFRA in respect of the technical have correctly identified whether the existing legal contribution fund for the International Atomic Energy Agency; framework is sufficient. £10.0 million transferred to DEFRA in respect of DFID in We are therefore seeking views on whether current respect of the overall ODA and International Climate Finance management strategy. An ODA/GNI target of 0.56% was set laws are robust enough to ensure that those who import, out in DFID’s CSR10 settlement letter, as was a climate or supply firearms to criminals face tough and appropriate change spending target of £275.0 million; sentences for their crime. £7.1 million transferred to Department of Energy and Climate Change (DECC) in respect of the overall ODA and International Climate Finance management strategy; £3.0 million transferred from the Department for Education INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT to DFID in respect of a forecast underspend on ODA eligible budget.; £247.0 million transferred internally from DFID’s RDEL budget to DFID’s CDEL budget in order to facilitate the Supplementary Estimates 2011-12 deposit of the IDA 16 £300.0 million promissory note. This represented the first deposit towards the 16th replenishment of the International Development Association, the arm of The Secretary of State for International Development the World Bank whose funding provides people with education, (Mr Andrew Mitchell): Subject to parliamentary approval health care, clean water and access to economic opportunities of the necessary supplementary estimate, the Department in around 80 of the world’s poorest countries. The UK has for International Development’s departmental expenditure pledged £2.664 billion to cover the period from July 2011 to limit (DEL) will be reduced by £13.0 million from June 2014. £7,880.3 million to £7,867.3 million. Voted Summary Within the DEL change, the impact on resources and capital are as set out in the following table: Net RDEL transfer to OGDs -£30.1 m Transfer to non-voted RDEL to -£31.9 m Change New DEL £’000 support EC attribution Transfer to DFID CDEL from -£247.0 m Non- Non- DFID RDEL Voted voted Voted voted Total Subtotal voted -£309.0 m Resource DEL -309.0 31.9 5,341.3 867.9 6,209.2 Of which: Non-voted Administration -11.6 0 111.2 0 111.2 Adjustment to the total of EC attribution budget Depreciation 21.0 21.0 Based on updated information of 2009 outturn made budget by EU directly on behalf of the UK the figure for the Capital DEL 264.1 0 1,658.1 0 1,658.1 outturn of the 2009 EC attribution was £31.9 million Total DEL -44.9 31.9 6,999.4 867.9 7,867.3 higher than outlined in the 2011 main estimate. As such, an adjustment is required to reflect the new estimated The change in the Resource element of DEL arises amount for the non-voted EC attribution total. from: £31.9 million transferred from DFID in respect of a forecast Voted underspend on ODA eligible budget. Transfers out to other Government Departments, Non-voted summary including those relating to the jointly managed conflict pool. This sits on Department for International Increase in EC attributed aid £31.9 m Development’s baseline but is shared between Department Subtotal non-voted £31.9 m for International Development, Foreign and Total reductions in RDEL £277.1 m Commonwealth Office and Ministry of Defence. Budget transfers relate to expenditure managed by these other The change in the capital element of DEL arises Government Departments. from: £4.5 million transferred to the Foreign and Commonwealth Voted Office in respect of the tri-departmental conflict pool. This Internal transfers from DFID RDEL to DFID CDEL, was funded from the original conflict pool allocation of and transfers of CDEL from OGDs as part of previously £256.0 million, and £4.0 million was funded from DFID stated RDEL to CDEL swaps. RDEL (given unforeseen pressures in Libya); £10.0 million CDEL received from DEFRA in respect of the £4.0 million transferred to the Foreign and Commonwealth overall ODA and International Climate Finance management Office in respect of the tri-departmental conflict pool. This strategy; was in addition to the £4.5 million outlined above and was a result of unforeseen pressures in Libya; £7.1 million CDEL received from DECC in respect of the overall ODA and International Climate Finance management £2.1 million transferred to the Foreign and Commonwealth strategy; Office in respect of approved funding to the returns and re-integration fund; £247.0 million internal transfer from DFID RDEL to DFID CDEL. The majority of this internal swap is used to partly £2.6 million transferred to the Department for Environment, fund the £300.0 million promissory note to IDA 16, summarised Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) in respect of approved earlier. DFID’s contribution to IDA, like many other donors, funding for DARWIN project; is made by way of promissory note to enable the organisation £1.9 million transferred to the Home Office in respect of to enter into commitments with the support of the promissory approved contribution to ODA-eligible UK Border Agency note but ensure effective cash management and avoid large (UKBA) funding; unutilised cash balances. 25WS Written Ministerial Statements8 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 26WS

Voted Summary AME non-voted summary

Transfer to DFID CDEL from £247.0 m Sub total non-voted £0 DFID RDEL Total decrease AME £9.1m Transfer from OGDs to DFID £17.1 m CDEL Subtotal voted £264.1 m SCOTLAND

Non-voted Supplementary Estimates 2011-12 No CDEL non voted adjustments

Non-voted Summary The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore): Subtotal non voted £0 Subject to parliamentary approval of the necessary Total increases in CDEL £264.1 m supplementary estimate the Scotland DEL will be increased by £361,773,000 from £27,987,779,000 to £28,349,552,000. Within the total DEL change, the impact on resources DFID’s Annually Managed Expenditure (AME) budget and capital is set out in the following table: is used to fund amendments to provision requirements and also fair value adjustments to financial instruments, £’000 Change New DEL notably DFID’s existing loan portfolio. DFID’s significant provisions include contributions towards the International Fiscal RDEL 114,616,000 24,955,969,000 Finance Facility for Immunisations (IFFIm) and Advance Ring-fenced Depreciation within 9,500,000 544,257,000 Market Commitments (AMC). RDEL Ring-fenced Student Loans within 16,109,000 87,487,000 Voted RDEL Adjustments have been made to reflect updated Capital DEL 221,548,000 2,761,839,000 expectations of provision requirements and utilisation of provisions based on revised information. The most Resource DEL + Capital DEL 361,773,000 28,349,552,000 notable of these are in IFFIm and AMC provisions. Less Depreciation 9,500,000 544,257,000 DFID’s provision requirements for IFFIm represent Total DEL 352,273,000 27,805,295,000 the net present value of committed payments to cover the UK share of currently issued bonds. This year bond The increase in the Scotland DEL takes account of issues are expected to be lower than originally forecast, the following adjustments to the Scottish Government due to lower anticipated demand for bonds as a result provision: of the global economic circumstances. AMC’s provision A DEL carry forward of £130,000,000 (£30,000,000 resource represents committed payments to fund supplier agreements and £100,000,000 capital); signed to produce vaccines to meet demand. The value Barnett consequentials of £90,194,000 (£69,206,000 resource of agreements signed in the year is now lower than and £20,988,000 capital); forecast at main estimate stage and a reduction in AME Increase of £15,970,000 (£15,410,000 resource and £560,000 is expected for this reason. capital) in lieu of Barnett consequentials in settlement of the These reductions are offset by an expected increase in Olympics dispute; AME to cover fair value adjustments in loans, which £50,000,000 towards the upgrading of the ScotRail sleeper are now treated as AME by way of the Clear Line of services; Sight reform. The majority of DFID’s loan debtor A pre-payment transfer for the Forth replacement crossing represents DFID’s share of a euro-denominated portfolio of £50,000,000; of loans given to developing countries which is administered An increase in the student loans subsidy of £16,109,000; and by the European Investment Bank (EIB). It is expected Additional depreciation of £9,500 for Highlands & Islands the valuation of this outstanding balance will reduce Airports Limited following due to a combination of exchange rate movements, its change from a public corporation to a central Government recognising the weakening of the euro against sterling, body. but also to reflect doubts over the recoverability of certain balances where the countries are in default or are expected to be given debt relief status. TRANSPORT Expected net income from the sale of assets disposed of in the financial year is £1.6 million, and is capital AME. This is included below. Search and Rescue Helicopters

AME voted summary The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport Increase in utilisation of provisions -£10.9 m (Mike Penning): On 13 July 2011 the Department for Increase in provision £3.4 m Transport commenced a procurement competition for Income in AME Capital -£1.6 m search and rescue helicopter services to replace the Subtotal voted £9.1 m existing contracted Maritime and Coastguard Agency (MCA) capability. The procurement process has now concluded, and I wish to inform the House of the No AME non-voted adjustments have been made results. 27WS Written Ministerial Statements8 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 28WS

A contract has been signed to operate search and Ring-fenced Student Loans in rescue services from Stornoway and Shetland with Bristow RDEL Helicopters Ltd. A separate contract has been signed with CHC Scotia Bristow Helicopters Ltd to operate Revised provision 116,288 search and rescue services from the Maritime and (Supplementary Estimate) Coastguard Agency bases at Portland and Lee-on-the- Solent. Operations under both contracts will commence Ring-fenced Depreciation in by the time the existing MCA service contract expires, RDEL and will continue until June 2017. Both contracts will Provision at Main Estimates 378,329 be managed by the MCA. Switch from Ring-fenced Student -37,868 As I announced on 28 November, procurement is Loans now under way for longer-term arrangements that will Transfer to DEFRA (Environment -1,650 see search and rescue contracted nationally. Operations Agency depreciation) will commence under these longer-term arrangements Sub-total changes -39,518 during 2015 and the future contractor for the UK will Revised provision (Supplementary 338,811 assume responsibility for the MCA capability during Estimate) 2017. Capital DEL

Provision at Main Estimates 1,286,947 Changes in Supplementary WALES Estimate) Resource to capital switch 97,000 Reserve Claim: Olympic 241 Supplementary Estimates 2011-12 settlement Barnett Consequentials: Growing The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan): Places 12,089 Subject to parliamentary approval of any necessary Sub-total changes 109,330 supplementary estimate, the Welsh Government’s (WG) Revised provision 1,396,277 total departmental expenditure limit (DEL) will be (Supplementary Estimate) increased by £123,401,000 from £14,688,541,000 to £14,811,942,000. Opening Current Within the total departmental expenditure limit (DEL) Summary Position Changes Position changes, the impact is set out in the following tables: Fiscal RDEL 13,348,774 -49,397 13,299,377 Fiscal RDEL £’000 Ring-fenced Student Loans in 52,820 63,468 116,288 RDEL Provision at Main Estimates 13,348,774 Ring-fenced Depreciation in 378,329 -39,518 338,811 Changes in Supplementary RDEL Estimate Capital DEL 1,286,947 109,330 1,396,277 Transfer from DEFRA (Animal 1,200 Total DEL (RDIL + CDEL) 15,066,870 83,883 15,150,753 Health) Total DEL (RDEL + CDEL- 14,688,541 123,401 14,811,942 Transfer to BIS (Public sector -2,081 Depreciation) Mapping) Resource to capital switch -97.,000 The net effect of these and other changes is to reduce Reserve Claim: Olympic 8,622 the grant payable to the Welsh Consolidated Fund by settlement £45,076,000 from £12,910,867,000 to £12,865,791,000. Barnett Consequentials: Council Tax Full details are set out in the table below. Freeze 38,895 Welsh Consolidated Fund Barnett Consequentials: Fee Advice Original Revised Services 967 Position Changes Position Sub-total changes -49,397 £’000 Revised provision 13,299,377 (Supplementary Estimate) Expenditure Classified as 15,066,870 83,883 15,150,753 DEL1 Expenditure Classified as 318,789 111,439 430,228 AME Ring-fenced Student Loans in Total managed Expenditure 15,385,659 195,322 15,580,981 RDEL

Provision at Main Estimates 52,820 Less: Changes in Supplementary Non-Voted expenditure: Estimate LA Credit Approvals 120,211 0 120,211 Switch from Ring-fenced 37,868 Other Non-Voted 6,078 0 6,078 Depreciation Reserve Claim: Student Loans 25,600 Sub-total changes 63,468 Resource Ring-fenced Non- 431,149 23,950 455,099 Cash 29WS Written Ministerial Statements8 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 30WS

Welsh Consolidated Fund Welsh Consolidated Fund

Original Revised Original Revised Position Changes Position Position Changes Position

AME Non-cash 164,726 122,077 286,803 Timing Adjustments TOTAL NON- VOTED 722,164 146,027 868,191 Increase / Decrease in 1,275 0 1,275 TME Debtors and Creditors TOTAL VOTED TME 14,663,495 49,295 14,712,790 Use of Provisions 50 0 50

TOTAL GRANT TO 12,910,867 -45,076 12,865,791 Voted receipts WELSH CONSOLIDATED Contributions from the -886,953 8,629 -878,324 FUND National Insurance Fund 1Resource and capital DEL inc. depreciation. NDR Receipts -867,000 -103,000 -970,000 Includes Budgetary Changes as a result of the implementation of Clear Line of Sight Total -1,753,953 -94,371 -1,848,324 253W Written Answers8 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 254W

Mr Simon Burns: The Department and its agencies Written Answers to are strongly committed to developing their staff and equipping them with the skills, knowledge and expertise Questions they need to carry out their work roles effectively. Away days and team building events make a significant contribution to such development. Wednesday 8 February 2012 Away days and team building activities are typically arranged by individual teams. No central records of these events are kept so extracting the requested data would incur disproportionate costs. HEALTH Diabetes Departmental Data Protection Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Mr David Davis: To ask the Secretary of State for (1) what assessment he has made of progress in Health how many cases of (a) data loss and (b) implementing the National Service Framework for diabetes; breaches of confidentiality occurred in his Department and if he will make a statement; [94012] in 2011. [94252] (2) what progress he has made on the National Service Framework for diabetes; and if he will make a Mr Simon Burns: The Department requires staff to statement. [94077] report losses of personal or business sensitive data, and breaches of personal confidentiality. Paul Burstow: “Six years on: delivering the Diabetes No data losses or breaches of confidentiality have National Service Framework”, the last review of the been recorded for 2011. National Services Framework (NSF) was published in 2010—a copy has been placed in the Library. Predictably, Departmental Food there have been developments in the evidence for optimal care for people with diabetes since the publication of Neil Parish: To ask the Secretary of State for Health the NSF for Diabetes in 2001 and, with this in mind, what proportion of food purchased by his Department further reviews will be dependent on other influences was produced in the UK in each of the last five years. such as the Quality Standard for Diabetes (2011). Our [93715] intention is to wait for the National Audit Office to publish its report on the management of adult diabetes Mr Simon Burns: The Department has a contract services in the national health service before considering with Quadrant Catering Limited to provide services to next steps. the Department’s staff restaurants and for hospitality Drugs: Counterfeit Manufacturing services. Quadrant Catering is part of Compass Group UK and Ireland. Data are only available for the last two years, which Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State show the proportion of food sourced from United for Health what steps his Department is taking to Kingdom producers is: prevent the sale of counterfeit medicine. [93329] 2010-11: 20% Mr Simon Burns: Counterfeit medicines rarely reach 2011-12 to date: 38%. patients through the regulated supply chain and are With regards to the sourcing from UK producers, our more commonly available to consumers via unregulated catering suppliers have provided the following information: websites. Although no fatalities have been attributed “We have defined British as guaranteed British provenance to counterfeit medicine in the United Kingdom, it is which can be fully traced back to the source, i.e. food that has acknowledged that all counterfeit medicines are dangerous been grown and harvested or born, bred and slaughtered in the and pose a risk to patient health. UK. Where the product is of mixed origin we have not defined this as sourced from the UK.” In response, the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (MHRA), an executive agency of Where it is possible, our catering supplier will use the Department of Health with responsibility for regulation local produce and can confirm that: of medicines for human use and medical devices, has 100% of their fresh beef is British; developed and implemented a comprehensive anti- 100% of their fresh pork joints is British; counterfeiting strategy to combat the threat posed by 100% of their fresh milk is British; the infiltration of counterfeit medicines and devices 100% of shell eggs are UK sourced and Lion marked; and into the UK market. all of their fresh potatoes and root vegetables are sourced from A number of public awareness campaigns have been UK when in season. delivered, both by MHRA and also by MHRA in conjunction with other stakeholders such as the General Departmental Training Pharmaceutical Council and patient groups. The MHRA monitors the internet for websites operating Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for within the UK supplying medicines illegally, makes test Health how many away days his Department has held purchases from these sites and, as a result, has successfully since May 2010; what the location was of each such prosecuted a number of individuals. All referrals involving away day; how many staff attended; and what the cost suspected counterfeit medicines are investigated thoroughly was of each such event. [93845] and necessary action is taken to protect public health. 255W Written Answers8 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 256W

Enforcement activity is closely co-ordinated with other Hospitals: Greater London enforcement authorities around the world and MHRA regularly engages in international initiatives to tackle Dame Joan Ruddock: To ask the Secretary of State this issue. for Health what the waiting times were for (a) private The MHRA also chairs an anti-counterfeit stakeholders and (b) NHS patients for diagnosis and treatment of group, with representatives from, among others, UK (i) cancer, (ii) orthopaedic and (iii) cardiovascular police forces, regulators and industry, where intelligence conditions at (A) Guy’s and St Thomas’ NHS concerning counterfeit medicines is regularly reviewed Foundation Trust and (B) King’s College Hospital and assessed. NHS Foundation Trust in the latest period for which New requirements for wholesalers and distributors of figures are available. [92657] medicines will be introduced by the falsified medicines directive in January 2013. Further proposals affecting Mr Simon Burns: Statistics covering waiting times for the pharmaceutical industry are being considered as privately commissioned services are not held centrally. part of the UK supply chain review. National health service patients referred urgently with a suspicion of cancer by their general practitioner should, Gynaecology: Medical Treatments if diagnosed, expect to begin their first definitive treatment within two months of referral unless it is clinically inappropriate or the patient elects to delay their care. In Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for the most recent period for which statistics are available Health what steps he is taking to ensure that women (Quarter 2, 2011-12) achievement against this requirement with symptomatic fibroids have access to a range of was as follows: treatments, including Uterine Artery Embolisation. [94082] Number of patients urgently referred and subsequently treated for cancer Number of patients, Anne Milton: The National Institute for Health and urgently Clinical Excellence published guidelines on Uterine Artery referred and Number Percentage Embolisation for fibroids in November 2010. It is for subsequently treated within treated within treated for two months two months the national health service to take account of the National Organisation cancer (62 days) (62 days) Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence guidelines when determining treatment options. Guy’s and St Thomas 252 199.5 79.2 NHS Foundation The NHS Choices website: Trust www.nhs.uk King’s College 94 88.5 94.1 Hospital NHS includes detailed information for patients on fibroids, Foundation Trust treatment options and where treatment is available. Information for patients with fibroids can be found at: Such information as is collected for referral to treatment www.nhs.uk/conditions/fibroids/Pages/Introduction.aspx (RTT) times for the trusts requested are as follows: Admitted pathways (patients who started treatment during November as an Health Services: Greater London admission to hospital) Average 95th (median) percentile Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Health waiting waiting Percentage Treatment time (in time (in within how much NHS North West London has budgeted for Provider name function weeks) weeks) 18 weeks (a) establishing the eight clinical commissioning groups, (b) staff redundancies at primary care trusts and (c) Guy’s and Total (all 5.6 34.7 82.9 St Thomas’ NHS treatment hospital or other NHS service merger or closure proposals Foundation Trust functions) in North West London in (i) 2010-11, (ii) 2011-12 and Trauma and 11.5 41.1 72.0 (iii) 2012-13; and if he will make a statement. [93763] Orthopaedics Cardiothoracic 1n/a 1n/a 1n/a Mr Simon Burns: This information is not centrally held. Surgery The hon. Member may wish to approach the relevant Cardiology 6.6 21.9 92.3 local national health service organisations. King’s College Total (all 6.6 22.7 90.3 Hospital NHS treatment Foundation Trust functions) Hinchingbrooke Hospital: Food Trauma and 12.0 32.3 80.7 Orthopaedics Cardiothoracic 2— 2— 87.2 Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Surgery Health whether Hinchingbrooke hospital is required to Cardiology 9.8 20.3 93.5 comply with Government buying standards for food and catering services. [94092] Non admitted pathways (patients who started treatment during November not involving an admission to hospital) Mr Simon Burns: Hinchingbrooke Health Care NHS Average 95th (median) percentile Trust is required to comply with the same laws, regulations waiting waiting Percentage and standards that all other national health service Treatment time (in time (in within trusts are required to follow. Provider name function weeks) weeks) 18 weeks NHS trusts are encouraged to adopt the Government Guy’s and St Thomas Total (all 3.2 17.7 95.3 buying standards for food and catering services through NHS Foundation treatment Trust functions) the 2011-12 NHS operating framework. 257W Written Answers8 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 258W

Non admitted pathways (patients who started treatment during November not to primary care trust commissioners last year to highlight involving an admission to hospital) to those involved in commissioning fertility services the Average 95th (median) percentile importance of having regard to the National Institute waiting waiting Percentage for Health and Clinical Excellence fertility guidelines, Treatment time (in time (in within including the recommendation that up to three cycles of Provider name function weeks) weeks) 18 weeks in vitro fertilisation are offered to eligible couples where Trauma and 5.7 28.2 87.9 the woman is aged between 23 and 39. Orthopaedics Cardiothoracic 1n/a 1n/a 1n/a Influenza: Vaccination Surgery Cardiology 5.2 14.3 98.0 Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health King’s College Total (all 4.2 17.1 97.8 Hospital NHS treatment how much his Department spent on each major cost Foundation Trust functions) area in the seasonal influenza immunisation programme Trauma and 1.8 15.9 98.0 in 2012. [94556] Orthopaedics Cardiothoracic 2— 2— 100.0 Anne Milton: The total cost of the seasonal flu Surgery vaccination programme is approximately £180 million Cardiology 9.4 17.7 97.4 each year. Incomplete Pathways (patients waiting to start treatment at the end of November) Mental Illness: Drugs Average 95th (median) percentile waiting waiting Percentage Mr Denham: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Treatment time (in time (in within what guidance his Department has issued to primary Provider name function weeks) weeks) 18 weeks care trusts on the procurement of drugs for the Guy’s and St Thomas Total (all 6.2 36.0 83.6 treatment of mental health disorders. [94309] NHS Foundation treatment Trust’ functions) Paul Burstow: The Department has not issued guidance Trauma and 9.2 44.2 71.8 to primary care trusts specifically on the procurement Orthopaedics of drugs for the treatment of mental health conditions. Cardiothoracic 1n/a 1n/a 1n/a Surgery The Quality, Innovation, Productivity and Prevention Cardiology 3.7 16.2 96.8 Medicines Use and Procurement workstream aims to King’s College Total (all 6.0 17.4 96.5 influence clinicians and managers to work together to Hospital NHS treatment improve the productivity and quality of prescribing in Foundation Trust functions) the national health service. Under this workstream, Trauma and 6.4 17.7 96.1 Orthopaedics the Department has produced a provider checklist of Cardiothoracic 5.9 23.3 84.7 50 efficiency measures to help strategic health authorities Surgery and primary care trusts deliver safer, more cost-effective Cardiology 6.4 20.0 93.5 prescribing. The schemes are real life examples taken 1 No pathways for this treatment function. from many NHS organisations in England. Three of 2 Median and 95th Percentile waiting times cannot be accurately estimated the 50 schemes, relate specifically to mental health. with less then 50 pathways in the month. They advise that primary care prescribing costs may be Note: Median and 95th percentile times are calculated from aggregate data, rather reduced if local NHS organisations draw up guidelines than patient level data, and therefore are only estimates of the position on to support the lowest acquisition cost of antidepressant/ average waits. antipsychotic medicines. The guidance is clear that this Source: Unify2 data collection—RTT (provider) Published: 19 January 2012 must not impact on individual patient choice and should be in line with National Institute for Health and Clinical In Vitro Fertilisation Excellence (NICE) guidance. None relate specifically to procurement. Gareth Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for Much of the NICE’S guidance on mental health will Health what recent assessment he has made of the include something on the most appropriate drugs to use adequacy of provision of IVF treatment. [94299] in clinical practice. NICE has produced commissioning guides for some of its mental health clinical guidelines. Anne Milton: The Department does not collect this However, this cannot be interpreted as guidance on information. However, the Department is aware that a procurement. small number of primary care trusts have been taking steps to bring their historical financial problems in NHS order, including temporary reductions to some non-urgent health services, such as infertility services. We very Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State much regret the impact these decisions may have had on for Health (1) how many pieces of guidance his the people who rely on these services. Department has issued to the National Health Service Primary care trusts are well aware of their statutory on the Health and Social Care Bill; and how much was commissioning responsibilities and the need to base spent on issuing such guidance; [93662] commissioning decisions on clinical evidence and (2) how many pieces of guidance his Department has discussions with local general practitioner commissioners, issued to the National Health Service since May 2010 secondary care clinicians and providers. The national on NHS modernisation; and how much was spent on health service deputy chief executive, David Flory, wrote issuing such guidance. [93663] 259W Written Answers8 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 260W

Mr Simon Burns: The requirements for national health Mr Simon Burns: Healthcare commissioning has generic service organisations are set out in an annual NHS and specialist elements and is multidisciplinary in nature. operating framework, three of which have been produced Individuals are recruited to ensure that commissioning since May 2010: “Revision to the Operating Framework can benefit from a number of professional and specialist for the NHS in England 2010-11” was published in June skills, for example, healthcare professionals from a range 2010, “The Operating Framework for the NHS in England of disciplines, public health communications specialists 2011-12” was published in December 2010 and “The as well as those with finance, accountancy, procurement, Operating Framework for the NHS in England 2012-13” statistical and informatics skills. The requirement for was published in November 2011. Each of those documents individuals to have formal qualifications will be set out set out what was required around modernisation in in job descriptions and reflected both in the recruitment each year and they have been supplemented by routine processes for individuals and in terms of ongoing correspondence during the year. development for individuals. NHS operating frameworks are communicated to All emerging clinical commissioning groups (CCGs) NHS organisations through electronic means and as will receive a broad range of development support from such the costs of issuing them is minimal. A copy of their primary care trust and strategic health authority. each has already been placed in the Library. This includes financial support as well as assigning NHS: Private Sector key personnel to them who have expert skills, such as senior finance managers and people with commissioning Dame Joan Ruddock: To ask the Secretary of State expertise and experience. A pathfinder learning network for Health whether the Secretary of State has any plans has been established to support the development of to issue a revised version of A Code of Conduct for emerging CCGs and to facilitate shared learning during Private Practice: Recommended Standards of Practice the transition. for NHS Consultants, published in January 2004. The NHS Leadership Academy is working with clinical [92687] commissioning stakeholder organisations, regional commissioning directors and others to develop and Mr Simon Burns: We have no such plans. The latest build clinical leadership and clinical commissioning version of this Code was published on 23 March 2009, capacity. amended to reflect the Department’s guidance on patients paying for additional private care. Nutrition NHS: Standards Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for Health whether he plans to make any further investment in his what assessment he has made of the impact of Best Supermeals campaign. [94055] Practice Tariffs on improving quality and spreading Anne Milton: The recent Supermeals campaign was best practice in the NHS. [94080] part of the ongoing Change4Life programme aimed at Mr Simon Burns: The Department of Health Payment encouraging and supporting people to make small but by Results team have commissioned an evaluation of significant lifestyle changes to improve their health. Best Practice Tariffs introduced in 2010-11. Consumer insights told us that people sometimes think The evaluation will provide structured qualitative eating healthier is more expensive and difficult and also and quantitative information regarding the impact of that people who plan their shopping and their meals are Best Practice Tariffs in order to evaluate the effectiveness more likely to make healthier choices. A full evaluation of using the national tariff as a lever to improve, clinical of the campaign is now under way and a decision on quality. any future campaign will be subject to a complete analysis of the results as well as subject to Efficiency The outcomes and recommendations of the evaluation and Reform Group approval. are currently subject to peer review and we anticipate that these will be published in spring 2012. Obesity: Leicestershire In advance of the publication, we can confirm that we are receiving positive feedback relating to how the Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Health best practice tariffs are helping to change existing practice how much and what proportion of its budget Leicester and engage clinicians and managers. City Primary Care Trust has spent on bariatric surgery An example of this would be the ‘National Hip since January 2011. [94128] Fracture Database (NHFD) National Report 2011’, which indicates that “the implementation of BPT in Mr Simon Burns: The information requested is not England has served to promote interest, better resourcing, available. The National Health Service Information Centre service improvement, and better outcomes in hip fracture for health and social care provides a count of finished care” (page 57). A copy of the report has been placed in consultant episodes (FCEs)1 where bariatric surgery the Library and is available from the NHFD website: was a main or secondary procedure2. Data for Leicester www.nhfd.co.uk/ City Primary Care Trust for January to March 2011, and provisional data3 for April to September 2011, are NHS: Training given in the following table:

Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Health FCEs what plans he has to enable clinical commissioners to (a) undertake formal training and (b) obtain Total January-September 2011 142 qualifications in commissioning. [93768] January-March 2011 33 261W Written Answers8 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 262W

Hospital episode statistics (HES) data available to FCEs the Department identify the treatments that the national April-September 2011 109 health service provides but do not record the brand of 1 A finished consultant episode (FCE) is a continuous period of equipment used. In addition to this, on the vast majority admitted patient care under one consultant within one healthcare of cases, stereotactic ablative radiotherapy cannot be provider. FCEs are counted against the year in which they end. identified from other forms of radiotherapy treatment Figures do not represent the number of different patients, as a person using HES data. may have more than one episode of care within the same stay in hospital or in different stays in the same year. 2 The number of episodes where the procedure (or intervention) was Social Services recorded in any of the 24 (12 from 2002-03 to 2006-07 and four prior to 2002-03) procedure fields in a Hospital Episode Statistics (HES) Ann Clwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Health record. A record is only included once in each count, even if the procedure is recorded in more than one procedure field of the record. how many registered social workers were employed by Note that more procedures are carried out than episodes with a main local authorities in England in adult services in (a) or secondary procedure. For example, patients under going a ’cataract 2009, (b) 2010 and (c) 2011. [94147] operation’ would tend to have at least two procedures—removal of the faulty lens and the fitting of a new one—counted in a single Paul Burstow: The number of registered social workers episode. 3 These data are provisional and may be incomplete or contain errors employed by local authorities is not centrally collected. for which no adjustments have yet been made. Counts produced from However, the Health and Social Care Information provisional data are likely to be lower than those generated for the Centre collects and publishes data relating to the number same period in the final dataset. This shortfall will be most pronounced of social workers who are directly employed by social in the final month of the latest period, ie November from the (month nine) April to November extract. It is also probable that clinical data services departments within councils with social services are not complete, which may in particular affect the last two months responsibilities in England. It is not known whether of any given period. There may also be errors due to coding inconsistencies these social workers are registered. that have not yet been investigated and corrected. The following table shows the number of whole-time Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), Health and Social Care Information equivalent (WTE) social workers employed by councils Centre. in England during the period 2009 to 2010 as at 30 September 2010. Radiotherapy: Northern Ireland Data for 2011 are expected to be published on 29 March 2012. These data will be sourced from the National Naomi Long: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Minimum Data Set for Social Care and so will not be (1) how many patients from Northern Ireland have comparable with previous years. been refused referral for cyberknife treatment in Number of WTE social workers employed by councils in England, as England; [94118] at 30 September (2) what discussions he has had with his counterpart WTE social workers in Northern Ireland on the referral of cyberknife 2009 21,245 treatment for patients in Northern Ireland; [94242] 2010 21,355 (3) how many patients from health trusts outside the Greater London area have been referred for cyberknife UNUM treatment; [94243] (4) what discussions he has had with his counterpart Karl Turner: To ask the Secretary of State for Health in Northern Ireland on the criteria for referring a on how many occasions officials in his Department patient in Northern Ireland for cyberknife treatment in have met representatives from UNUM; and on how another part of the UK; [94244] many occasions representatives from UNUM have met (5) what discussions he has had with his counterpart members of advisory committees and working groups in Northern Ireland on the procedure for transferring a for his Department. [93958] patient in need of cyberknife treatment for treatment in another part of the UK; [94245] Mr Simon Burns: We are not aware of any meetings between officials and UNUM. However, Dame Carol (6) how many patients from Northern Ireland have Black, expert adviser on health and work to the been successfully referred for cyberknife treatment in Department, met them on three occasions in January England. [94246] 2012 to discuss the positive relationship between work and health. Paul Burstow: The Secretary of State for Health, my right hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr Lansley), has held no discussions about cyberknife with his counterpart in Northern Ireland and the COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Department holds no information concerning the referral of patients from Northern Ireland for cyberknife treatment Council Tax in England. Cyberknife is the manufacturer’s name for a machine. Hilary Benn: To ask the Secretary of State for The treatment it delivers is stereotactic ablative radiotherapy Communities and Local Government (1) what the (previously known as stereotactic body radiotherapy). types of discounts on council tax payment are that he There are a number of different machines capable of proposes local authorities will be able to extinguish delivering this treatment in use around the country that under the provisions of the Local Government Finance offer greater functionality. Bill; [93949] 263W Written Answers8 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 264W

(2) what the current exemptions from council tax Class Description liability are; and what exemptions he proposes local authorities will be able to amend under the provisions P A dwelling where at least one person who would otherwise of the Local Government Finance Bill. [93950] be liable has a relevant association with a Visiting Force. Q An unoccupied dwelling where the person who would Robert Neill [holding answer 6 February 2012]: The otherwise be liable is a trustee in bankruptcy current exemptions from liability for council tax are R Empty caravan pitches and boat moorings listed as follows. In their consultation, “Technical Reforms S A dwelling occupied only by a person, or persons, aged under 18 for Council Tax”, the Government proposed to allow T A dwelling which forms part of a single property which local authorities to charge full council tax on second includes another dwelling and may not be let separately homes and to abolish class A and C exemptions, and from that dwelling, without a breach of planning control instead allow authorities to set a discount of between 0 U A dwelling occupied only by a person, or persons, who is or and 100%. In addition, we proposed to abolish class L are severely mentally impaired who would otherwise be exemption and instead make Mortgagees in possession liable to pay the council tax or only by one or more severely liable for council tax. In order to meet the time constraints mentally impaired person of the legislative programme, it was necessary to include V A dwelling in which at least one person who would clauses within the Local Government Finance Bill. The otherwise be liable is a diplomat consultation has now ended and responses are being W A dwelling which forms part of a single property, including at least one or other dwelling, and which is the sole or main analysed. We will bring forward Government amendments residence of a dependent relative of a person who is to the Bill to make any changes that we consider appropriate resident in the other dwelling in the light of the consultation. These reforms could allow councils to make up to a Departmental Redundancy Pay £20 reduction in the bill for a typical band D property in England. Getting empty homes back into use will Jon Trickett: Toask the Secretary of State for Communities increase housing supply and tackle properties that can and Local Government how much redundancy pay was attract squatters and vandalism and blight communities. paid to civil servants in his Department in each month There are no plans to change the rules on council tax between September and November 2011. [87967] relief currently available for homes left empty because a person has moved into a hospital or care home, or has Robert Neill: The following table shows the total died, or has moved to provide care to another. Councils costs of voluntary and compulsory redundancy payments will be encouraged to use their existing powers to apply made to staff in each month between September and discretionary discounts in cases where homes are empty November 2011. In some cases these include the whole due to other justifiable circumstances—for example, cost of actuarial buy out of pension which is a feature hardship, fire or flooding. of the Civil Service Compensation Scheme. This means the amounts include elements which are paid to staff Class Description over time.

A Vacant dwellings where major repair works or structural £ alterations are required, under way or recently completed (up to 12 months) September 2011 91,658.74 B Unoccupied dwellings owned by a charity (up to six October 2011 511,664.73 months) November 2011 865,479.11 C A vacant dwelling (ie empty and substantially unfurnished) (up to six months) As part of the spending review settlement, the DCLG D A dwelling left unoccupied by people who are in prison Group is making a collective 33% real terms saving E An unoccupied dwelling which was previously the sole or against its running costs by 2014-15. This equates to main residence of a person who has moved into a hospital savings of over £200 million by 2014-15. In addition, or care home the Department will save a further £190 million from F Dwellings left empty by deceased persons the closure of the Government offices for the regions, G An unoccupied dwelling where the occupation is prohibited by law taking overall savings on administrative running costs to 42% across the DCLG Group by 2014-15. H Unoccupied clergy dwellings I An unoccupied dwelling which was previously the sole or These savings reflect the coalition Government’s agenda main residence of a person who is the owner or tenant and of decentralisation, ending the micromanagement of has moved to receive personal care local government, the abolition of regional government, J An unoccupied dwelling which was previously the sole or and the broader need to tackle the deficit left by the last main residence of a person who is the owner or tenant and Administration. who has moved in order to provide personal care to another person Exit costs are higher (by historic standards) in 2010-11 due to the closure of the Government office for the K An unoccupied dwelling where the owner is a student who last lived in the dwelling as their main home. regions and measures taken to reduce running costs across the departmental family. L An unoccupied dwelling which has been taken into possession by a mortgage lender Departmental Travel M A hall of residence provided predominantly for the accommodation of students Maria Eagle: Toask the Secretary of State for Communities N A dwelling which is occupied only by students, the foreign spouses of students, or school and college leavers. and Local Government whether his Department has O Armed forces’ accommodation16 agreed any contracts with (a) private hire vehicle and (b) taxi companies since May 2010. [92840] 265W Written Answers8 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 266W

Robert Neill: The Department has no contracts with in some areas are too high and give some housing taxi companies. benefit customers access to properties that even people with above average incomes could not afford. This was Housing Benefit not fair to the taxpayer and could not be sustained. We therefore had to make changes to local housing allowance by introducing housing benefit caps and moving to the Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities 30th percentile of local market rents. We want people to and Local Government which local authorities have continue to have access to decent housing but the support made representations to his Department on the potential provided needs to be founded on principles of fairness, effects of reductions to local housing allowances since affordability and making work pay. September 2010. [93934] The benefit cap supports the Government’s plans to Grant Shapps: Ministers and officials from the make work pay. We want to create a welfare system that Department for Communities and Local Government encourages people to work and that is based on the are in regular contact with local authorities across a principles of fairness and responsibility.We have announced range of issues. that we will work intensively with those likely to be affected by the cap, giving them immediate support Local housing allowance rates in some areas are too from the Work programme, a nine-month grace period high and give some Housing benefit customers access to for those who have been in work for the previous properties that even people with above average incomes 12 months and we will provide up to £130 million for could not afford. This was not fair to the taxpayer and short-term, temporary relief to families who may face a could not be sustained, we therefore had to make changes variety of challenges. to local housing allowance by introducing housing benefit caps and moving to the 30th percentile of local market Local Government Finance Bill rents. We want people to continue to have access to decent housing but the support provided needs to be founded on principles of fairness, affordability and Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for making work pay. Communities and Local Government when he plans to publish draft regulations relating to the Local Government Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities Finance Bill; and whether they will be available prior to and Local Government if he will place in the Library a report stage of the Bill. [93946] copy of each item of correspondence received by his Department from local authorities on the potential Robert Neill [holding answer 6 February 2012]: My effects of reductions in local housing allowance on (a) Department is working closely with the local government homelessness and (b) local authority budgets. [93935] sector and other interested parties. We will be using these discussions to develop regulations relating to the Grant Shapps: The Department for Communities Local Government Finance Bill and intend to publish and Local Governments receives a large amount of these for consultation as and when they become ready. correspondence from local authorities regarding a range It is our intention to publish either draft regulations or of issues. a statement of intent for key regulations pertaining to the Bill prior to Commons Report stage. Local housing allowance rates in some areas are too high and give some housing benefit customers access to properties that even people with above average incomes could not afford. This was not fair to the taxpayer and could not be sustained. We therefore had to make ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE changes to local housing allowance by introducing housing benefit caps and moving to the 30th percentile of local Climate Change Convention: Canada market rents. We want people to continue to have access to decent housing but the support provided needs to be Alison McGovern: To ask the Secretary of State for founded on principles of fairness, affordability and Energy and Climate Change what representations he making work pay. has made to the Canadian government on its withdrawal These changes mean some people may have to move from the Kyoto Protocol. [93815] but up to 30% of properties should be affordable in every area and the homelessness safety net remains in Gregory Barker: We have made clear to Peter Kent, place for those who need it. the Canadian Minister of the Environment, the UK’s particular regret at the decision by the Canadian Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities Government to withdraw from the Kyoto Protocol. and Local Government what correspondence he has Officials continue to engage with Canada on the need received from (a) individuals and (b) institutions on for emissions reductions and to make further progress the potential effect of (i) reductions in local housing in the UN negotiations following the positive outcome allowance and (ii) the proposed household benefit cap. at Durban. [93965] Climate Change: International Cooperation Grant Shapps: The Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, my right hon. Friend the Member Alison McGovern: To ask the Secretary of State for for Brentwood and Ongar (Mr Pickles), receives numerous Energy and Climate Change what progress he has correspondence from individuals and institutions covering made on identifying a successor to the Kyoto Protocol a wide range of policies. Local housing allowance rates since the Durban conference. [93816] 267W Written Answers8 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 268W

Gregory Barker: At COP 17 in Durban, countries ensure that customers’ meters are physically read and agreed that a second commitment period of the Kyoto inspected once every two years. Protocol should begin on 1 January 2013 and that they When an estimated meter reading is used to calculate would also negotiate a new legally binding instrument a customer’s energy usage the reading appears on the applicable to all countries that would be adopted by bill with the letter ‘e’ next to it. If the customer disagrees 2015 and come into effect from 2020. The UK stands with the estimated amount, they may provide their own ready to enter a second commitment period of the meter reading. The supplier will either accept the reading Kyoto Protocol at COP 18 in Doha as part of a transition and issue a revised bill, or, can contact the customer to towards this new legally binding agreement. obtain a new meter reading or arrange to read the meter itself. Combined Heat and Power Energy: Business Dan Byles: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what assessment he has made of Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for the lifetime levelised costs of combined heat and power Energy and Climate Change what steps he is taking to plants. [93774] assist businesses to reduce their energy bills. [93408]

Gregory Barker: The Department regularly publishes Gregory Barker: The coalition Government are doing energy and emissions projections for the UK, including much to support business in this area. estimates of combined heat and power (CHP) capacity. The Green Deal, available from autumn this year, will This modelling uses a methodology based on levelised enable businesses to install energy efficiency measures costs but the model is not configured to produce these at no upfront investment, and to access advice to help costs. The latest projections were published in October them better manage their energy consumption. 20111. Energy Intensive Industries that commit to delivering In addition, detailed modelling assessing the effects energy efficiency or carbon reduction targets, set out in of the renewables obligation and the renewable heat Climate Change Agreements with the Government, can incentive on CHP potential was published in January obtain, from April 2013, up to 90% discount on their 2 2010 . Climate Change Levy payments for electricity and a 1 Updated Energy and Emissions Projections 2011; 65% discount on other fuels used. October 2011: The CRC Energy Efficiency Scheme incentivises http://www.decc.gov.uk/assets/decc/11/about-us/economics- companies to improve their energy efficiency and thereby social-research/3134-updated-energy-and-emissions- reduce their energy bills. And the Enhanced Capital projections-october.pdf Allowance scheme for energy saving equipment allows 2 Interaction between different incentives to support businesses to claim 100% first year capital allowance on renewable energy and their effect on CHP: Renewable the purchase of qualifying plant or machinery. Obligation and Renewable Heat Incentive; AEA; January 2010: Energy: Manpower http://www.rhincentive.co.uk/library/regulation/ 100201CHP_modelling.pdf Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what estimate he has made Energy: Billing of the number of jobs supported by the energy efficiency sector in the UK in the latest period for which figures Sir John Stanley: To ask the Secretary of State for are available. [93406] Energy and Climate Change what steps he plans to take to oblige energy companies to give domestic customers Gregory Barker: The energy efficiency market is estimated the option of paying their bills by post. [93192] to support around 75,000 manufacturing jobs1, the majority of which are in the manufacture of glass and Charles Hendry: Ofgem is responsible for the rules double glazed windows and doors. For the installation governing payment methods. Although suppliers are market, it is more difficult to assess the number of jobs obliged under the terms of the supply licence to offer a supported because many energy efficiency measures wide range of methods for their customers to pay, only may be installed as part of larger renovation or extension payment by cash and in advance through a prepayment projects. Estimates suggest around 3,600 installers2 were meters are the only compulsory methods they are required employed in the insulation market in 2009-10, which to offer. All other payment methods, including paying covers loft and wall insulation. by post, are a commercial decision for the company 1 Source—Assessment of the Size of the UK Household Energy itself. Efficiency Market; Element Energy Ltd and Quantum Strategy and Technology Ltd; November 2008. Sir John Stanley: To ask the Secretary of State for 2 Source—Low Carbon and Environmental Goods and Services: Energy and Climate Change what steps he plans to Report for 2009-10; K-Matrix; 2011. take to oblige energy companies to disclose to domestic customers the estimated meter readings on which Energy: Meters estimated bills are based. [93193] Mr Davidson: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Charles Hendry: Ofgem is responsible for the rules and Climate Change what progress his Department has governing meter readings. Gas and electricity suppliers made in ensuring that those with pre-payment meters are obliged, under the terms of their supply licence, to for energy supplies are not overcharged. [94011] 269W Written Answers8 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 270W

Gregory Barker: Ofgem is responsible for regulating Green Deal qualifying measures provided their energy gas and electricity supply, including matters related to saving performance has been independently verified. prepayment meters. New rules introduced by Ofgem in DECC proposes to use the existing process for modelling 2009 to prevent unfair price differentials, such as those savings in the Standard Assessment Procedure, called between different payment methods, mean that prepayment Appendix Q. meter customers now pay, on average, £20 less than standard credit customers for their gas and electricity. Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change whether he has discussed Energy: Prices with the Behavioural Insight Team the use of his recently announced additional funding to encourage take-up of Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for the Green Deal. [94279] Energy and Climate Change if he will make it his policy to ensure that all people over 75 years old are automatically Gregory Barker: DECC officials have been in contact placed on the cheapest tariff by their gas and electricity with the Behavioural Insights Team (BIT) to discuss the supplier. [93202] additional funding to incentivise the Green Deal take-up. DECC and BIT are currently undertaking a number Gregory Barker: The Warm Home Discount scheme of joint trials with businesses, the findings of which will has been introduced to provide targeted support for low add to the evidence base regarding the way these funds income and vulnerable households through direct financial should be used. assistance with energy costs. The type of support offered and eligibility criteria for the scheme were consulted on Homesun Holdings and the final scheme has been designed to provide targeted support to those who need it most. This includes Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for specific support for the poorest pensioners—this year Energy and Climate Change pursuant to the oral answer alone, over 600,000 pensioners in receipt of pension of 26 January 2012, Official Report, column 15, on credit guarantee credit only will receive the £120 core Homesun Holdings, whether his Department has sought group discount. In total the scheme will assist around any external legal advice in respect of the judicial review. two million low income and vulnerable households each year. [93252] In addition, all pensioner households already receive Gregory Barker: Yes. The Department is being the winter fuel payment and are among those eligible represented in the judicial review by counsel. for the cold weather payment. London Olympics 2012 Fuel Poverty Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Jake Berry: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change how many invitations to attend and Climate Change how many households in the (a) events at the London 2012 Olympics (a) he, (b) other private rented, (b) social and (c) owner-occupied Ministers in his Department and (c) senior officials in sector in (i) England, (ii) Rossendale and (iii) Darwen his Department have accepted; and if he will make a are classed as being in fuel poverty. [93819] statement. [93642] Gregory Barker: The latest data relate to 2009, and Gregory Barker: None. show that around 6,500 households (23% of such households) in Rossendale and 13,000 households (24%) Details of hospitality received by Ministers and special in Blackburn with Darwen were in fuel poverty. The advisers and the most senior officials are published on a tenure breakdown cannot be calculated for small areas quarterly basis and will be available for July-September due to low sample sizes, but for England this is as follows: 2012 in due course. Households in England in fuel poverty, 2009 Marine Energy Park Number (million) Percentage Owner occupied 2.5 17 Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Private rented 0.7 21 Energy and Climate Change what plans he has to Social sector 0.8 21 establish a Marine Energy Park in the (a) Severn Estuary and (b) Pentland Firth. [93409] Green Deal Scheme Charles Hendry: During my recent visit to Bristol on Dr Whitehead: To ask the Secretary of State for 23 January I launched the UK’s first Marine Energy Energy and Climate Change pursuant to the answer of Park which will stretch from Bristol through to Cornwall 10 January 2012, Official Report, columns 133-4W, on and as far as the Isles of Scilly. It aims to create a Green Deal scheme, what steps he plans to take to collaborative partnership between national and local determine the inclusion of technologies included in the government, Local Enterprise Partnerships, the regional Standard Assessment Procedure in the Green Deal. Universities and industry including Cornwall’s Wave [94138] Hub, thereby accelerating marine power development. The Government support the work being led by Gregory Barker: Under the Government’s proposals Highlands and Islands Enterprise to create the Pentland published in the recent Green Deal consultation document, Firth and Orkney Waters Marine Energy Park. My new technologies will be able to be added to the list of officials have been working closely with regional 271W Written Answers8 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 272W stakeholders from both Caithness and Orkney on their Charles Hendry: DECC estimates that there were plans which will drive investment in the region by over 500,000 people employed in the renewable energy building on the existing work to develop marine energy. sector in 2009-10. This information is taken from estimates by K-Matrix (2011) for the Department for Business, Photovoltaics Innovation and Skills1 (please see following table) and includes the supply chain2. Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for 1 Extracted from Table 7, K Matrix, 2011, Low Carbon and Energy and Climate Change pursuant to the oral answer Environmental Goods and Services Report 2009-10, available at: of 26 January 2012, Official Report, column 391, on photovoltaics, what evidence his Department used to http://www.bis.gov.uk/policies/business-sectors/low-carbon- business-opportunities/market-intelligence/market-data calculate the cost of the feed-in tariff to consumers. 2 [93248] K-Matrix’s bottom-up methodology reveals more low carbon and environmental activity than SIC coding, and other previous Gregory Barker: Our latest impact assessment estimates. K-Matrix compare their numbers to validated and accompanying the phase I comprehensive review verified data sources to mitigate the risk of double counting. consultation on feed-in tariffs for solar PV provided K-Matrix data on employment in renewable energy industries projections of costs to consumers. This document available K-Matrix heading Numbers employed 2009-10 at: Alternative fuel vehicle 101,072 http://www.decc.gov.uk/assets/decc/11/consultation/fits-comp- Alternative fuels 140,098 review-p1/3416-fits-IA-solar-pv-draft.pdf Biomass 47,485 sets out the methodology used to estimate both uptake Geothermal 79,012 of solar PV under various tariff scenarios and the corresponding costs to consumers. Hydro 4,955 Photovoltaic 39,152 Projections of PV uptake were carried out by combining Renewable energy general 4,865 actual uptake data from the central FITs register and consultancy the MCS installation database with projections from Wave and tidal 552 the DECC FITs model. The latter was informed by Wind 91,194 evidence collated by consultants Cambridge Economic Total 508,385 Policy Associates and Parsons Brinkerhoff. Further information can be found in their report “Updates to the feed-in tariffs model: Documentation of changes Warm Front Scheme for solar PV consultation, October 2011”, available at: http://www.decc.gov.uk/assets/decc/11/consultation/fits-comp- Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for review-p1/3365-updates-to-fits-model-doc.pdf Energy and Climate Change pursuant to the oral answer Modelled uptake projections are then combined with of 11 January 2012, Official Report, column 324W, on tariff levels to produce estimates of the potential impacts Warm Front scheme, how many households in each of tariff proposals on costs to consumers. parliamentary constituency have received assistance under the Warm Front scheme in (a) each of the last five Renewable Energy: Heating years and (b) in 2011-12 to date; and what the average level of grant provided under the scheme was in each Peter Aldous: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy such period. [93253] and Climate Change what assessment he has made of the prospects for an underspend in the Renewable Heat Premium Payment scheme; and whether he plans to Gregory Barker: A table detailing the number of reallocate any such underspend to support domestic households assisted in each parliamentary constituency (a) renewable heating technologies. [94079] under the Warm Front scheme, in each of the last five years and (b) to date in 2011-12, will be placed in Gregory Barker: We are likely have an underspend in the Libraries of the House. 2011-12 for the Renewable Heat Premium Payment The average level of grant provided under the scheme scheme against the sums indicated as being available for for (a) each of the last five years and (b) to date in this scheme. The Government have already reallocated 2011-12 are as follows: funding this financial year from the part of the scheme which provides vouchers to householders to the part Scheme year Average grant (claims) supporting projects for renewable heating in social housing. 2006-07 1,648 Where Government have been authorised to spend 2007-08 1,694 monies for a particular purpose in a particular year, all spending has to be shown to have been used for that 2008-09 1,884 purpose in that year in line with the Government Resources 2009-10 1,959 and Accounts Act 2000, as amended. This means 2010-11 2,623 1 underspends in any one financial year cannot be reallocated 2011-12 1,769 to a different financial year. 1 Figures up to 31 January 2012 Renewable Energy: Manpower Lyn Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change how many households in (a) West Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for Ham constituency and (b) the London borough of Energy and Climate Change what recent estimate he Newham received funding through Warm Front in has made of the number of people employed in the each of the last 10 years; and how much funding was renewable energy industry. [93204] provided in each of those years. [93501] 273W Written Answers8 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 274W

Gregory Barker: The number of households assisted the London borough of Newham in each of the last and the amount of funding provided under the Warm seven years1 are as follows: Front scheme in (a) West Ham constituency and (b)

2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-2010 2010-11 2011-122

West Ham Households assisted 355 261 501 540 368 236 32 Spend (£) 375,905.84 440,184.32 384,340.69 517,913.53 437,333.12 471,082.09 94,736.55

London borough of Newham Households assisted 735 658 1106 1340 919 496 70 Spend (£) 1,034,827.88 1,250,564.89 1,036,364.87 1,369,686.17 1,324,561.34 1,352,610.74 219,503.71 1 This information is only available post 2005 2 Up to 31 January 2012

Wind Power: Expenditure more effective powers to tackle antisocial behaviour and protect victims. Since the Home Office consultation Glyn Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy closed, we have been discussing the practical details of and Climate Change what individual constraint payments the reforms informally with a number of those were made to wind farm companies outside the balancing organisations, and we will publish our proposals shortly. mechanism. [93823] Civil Disorder: Lancashire Constabulary Charles Hendry: Forward energy trades guarantee that power is provided for a certain period to help Mark Hendrick: To ask the Secretary of State for balance electricity supply and demand, which keeps the the Home Department if she will estimate the cost of system secure. National Grid routinely makes forward sending officers from Lancashire Constabulary to energy trades through the market with generators of all assist the Metropolitan Police with public disorder in types. These trades take place outside the balancing London in August 2011; and how much financial mechanism, but are classed as constraint payments assistance Lancashire Constabulary will receive from when they are undertaken to help manage transmission her Department towards these costs. [93523] constraints. Forward energy trades can, on occasions, be more cost effective than taking actions in the balancing Nick Herbert: This information is not available centrally. mechanism. The Government have stated that they are ready to support the police with the costs of the riots, and have National Grid has advised that individual trades given an assurance that 85% of police operational costs are commercially confidential, and cannot therefore be will be refunded. The arrangements for the provision of published. Commercial confidentiality is a requirement mutual aid, and the amount of the charges, is a matter of the protocol which regulates trading practices in the for the two relevant forces. The Metropolitan police will UK power market. make the payment directly to Lancashire constabulary Aggregate data on trades is available, however. In and will seek reimbursement for all of its mutual aid 2011, for example, trades on wind totalled £12.7 million costs from the Home Office. at an average of £138 megawatt hour (MW/h) compared to equivalent actions on wind under the balancing Departmental Procurement mechanism which were £12.1 million at an average of £222 MW/h. Less than 10% of all constraint payments Toby Perkins: To ask the Secretary of State for the were made to wind farms. National Grid is incentivised Home Department how much was spent on procuring by Ofgem to select the most cost effective way of products and services by each police authority in balancing supply and demand. 2010-11. [93493]

Nick Herbert: This information is not collected centrally, but data on overall police force expenditure is available HOME DEPARTMENT on the website of the Chartered Institute of Public Antisocial Behaviour Finance Accountants: www.cipfastats.net Gloria De Piero: To ask the Secretary of State for the Although decisions on the allocation of available Home Department what funding her Department plans resources are for chief constables and their police authorities, to allocate to its proposed antisocial behaviour toolkit the Government have put in place the first regulations for the retraining of (a) police officers, (b) local authorities, to join up police procurement by requiring the police to (c) housing associations and (d) other related organisations. buy certain equipment through national frameworks, [93581] and is consulting on further regulations to cover additional categories of equipment and some services. The use of James Brokenshire [holding answer 6 February 2012]: these frameworks is expected to help the police service The Government’s proposed reforms will give the police, achieve procurement savings of £200 million a year by local authorities, housing providers and others faster, 2014-15. 275W Written Answers8 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 276W

Mobile Phones Organised Crime: West Midlands

Jake Berry: To ask the Secretary of State for the Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for Home Department what steps her Department has the Home Department how many gangs have been taken to prevent the misuse of devices provided under identified in each west midlands local authority area. the Mobile Information Programme. [93102] [94061]

Nick Herbert: The Mobile Information Programme James Brokenshire: The Home Office does not keep has issued guidance to forces covering secure handling records of the number of gangs identified in each police of mobile devices including accounting for devices, force area. This is a matter for the relevant local police auditing usage and protective monitoring of systems to force. The Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) identify unauthorised access to police information. Forces are currently undertaking a mapping exercise using the are responsible for including mobile devices in their Government’s new definition of street gangs to help existing local policies and procedures. understand the scale and nature of the street gang problem. National Policing Improvement Agency Police Mr Hanson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department pursuant to the written ministerial Dr Thérèse Coffey: To ask the Secretary of State for statement of 15 December 2011, Official Report, columns the Home Department what procedures her Department 125-7WS, on the National Policing Improvement Agency, has ceased requiring the police to undertake since May on what date she expects the new information and 2010. [91924] communications technology (ICT) company to be established; how many police authorities had agreed to Nick Herbert: The Government have announced a participate in the new company as at 1 February 2012; package of reforms that will cut police red tape, saving who the members of the shadow ICT board are; how up to 3.3 million police hours per year—the equivalent many times the shadow board has met; and if she will of over 1,500 police officers. These include scrapping make a statement. [93737] the last Government’s target on public confidence and removing excessive central performance management. Nick Herbert: The new police ICT company programme We have also removed the national requirement for the is making good progress towards the establishment of Stop and Account form and reduced the burden of the the company. The programme team is currently working Stop and Search procedures. with police authorities (and other stakeholders) to determine the ownership and governance structures and business Police and Crime Commissioners model for the company. A prospectus outlining the detail of ownership structures and governance will be Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for the published shortly. Home Department by what means potential candidates for police and crime commissioners will be vetted to Offenders: Deportation ensure they are not disbarred by virtue of (a) bankruptcy, (b) custodial sentence, (c) details disclosed on a Criminal Records Bureau form and (d) disciplinary procedures Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State following employment by a police force; and if she will for the Home Department how many foreign national make a statement. [94108] criminals imprisoned in the west midlands were removed from the UK in 2011. [93346] Nick Herbert [holding answer 7 February 2012]: Candidates will need to declare that they are eligible to Damian Green: Establishing how many foreign national stand when they formally declare their candidacy, which offenders were imprisoned in the west midlands and includes that they have not been sentenced to an who were removed from the UK in 2011 would require imprisonable offence or are bankrupt. It will be a cross referencing a large volume of electronic records criminal offence to declare their candidacy if they are and would incur disproportionate cost. disqualified. This is standard procedures for all elections. It would be entirely inappropriate in a democracy for Organised Crime: Greater London either the Government or the police to vet a candidate for suitability before they are permitted to stand in an Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for the election. Political parties may undertake such checks on Home Department (1) how many incidents of gang-related their own candidates as they deem appropriate. violence were recorded by the Metropolitan police in each of the last five years; and if she will make a Police: Accountability statement; [94215] (2) how many incidents of gang-related violence were Mark Hendrick: To ask the Secretary of State for the recorded by the Metropolitan police in each month Home Department if she will estimate the cost of from April 2011; and if she will make a statement. holding elections for police commissioners in (a) Preston [94216] and (b) Lancashire in 2011; and what additional funding will be provided to (i) Preston city council and (ii) other James Brokenshire [holding answer 7 February 2012]: local authorities in Lancashire in respect of such costs The information requested is not available centrally. in 2012-13. [93521] 277W Written Answers8 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 278W

Nick Herbert: It is not currently possible to estimate Safer Neighbourhood Teams the cost of elections in specific areas as we are collating the relevant information and, as is standard practice, Mark Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for the will publish this is in the summer of 2012 before the Home Department what steps she is taking to support elections in November 2012. The Home Office will meet existing safer neighbourhood campaigns. [93821] the full cost of elections in 2012. James Brokenshire: The Home Office does not fund Mark Hendrick: To ask the Secretary of State for the or co-ordinate national or local safer neighbourhood Home Department what estimate she has made of the campaigns. However, we welcome local partners coming costs of elected police commissioners in financial year together to design and deliver their local safer (a) 2012-13, (b) 2013-14 and (c) 2014-15; and from neighbourhood campaigns. which budgets this funding will be drawn. [93528] West Midlands Police Nick Herbert: In 2012-13 the first elections of police and crime commissioners (PCCs) will cost £75 million. Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for the Running costs, in all years, should be no more than the Home Department what assessment she has made of current cost of police authorities, up to £78 million per the potential impact of reductions in the funding of year. Running costs will continue to come from a mixture West Midlands police on (a) road safety and (b) the of central Government funding and local precept, as is purchase of new (i) fixed and (ii) mobile traffic safety the case currently for police authorities. Elections costs cameras by the West Midlands Road Safety Camera will be borne by the Home Office, and will not come Partnership in (A) the West Midlands, (B) Dudley from money that would otherwise have gone to policing. borough and (C) Dudley North. [93334]

Police: Expenditure Nick Herbert: Reductions in police funding over the spending review period are challenging but manageable. How available funding is spent is a matter for police Hilary Benn: To ask the Secretary of State for the authorities and chief officers of police. Deployment of Home Department what estimate she has made of cameras is an operational matter for the police and expenditure (a) overall and (b) per head of population West Midlands Road Safety Camera Partnership. on police and community support officers in each local authority area in each of the last 10 years. [92904]

Nick Herbert: This information is not collected centrally. WORK AND PENSIONS Spending decisions are made locally by chief constables and police authorities. Data on overall police force Departmental Billing expenditure is available on the website of the Chartered Institute of Public Finance Accountants: Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Work www.cipfastats.net and Pensions how many and what proportion of his Department’s invoices from its private sector suppliers Police: Information and Communications Technology were paid (a) within 14 days, (b) between 15 and 30 days, (c) between 31 and 60 days, (d) between 61 and 90 days and (e) more than 90 days after receipt Mr Hanson: To ask the Secretary of State for the in the last 12 months. [93445] Home Department whether she has prepared a risk register in relation to the establishment of the new Chris Grayling: The Department for Work and Pensions police information and communications technology became a signatory to the Prompt Payment Code in company. [93733] March 2009 and set targets to pay 100% of correct invoices within 30 days, 90% within 10 days and 80% Nick Herbert: In accordance with standard programme within five days of receipt. management procedures the police ICT company Separate figures detailing payments for (a) within programme has prepared and actively manages a risk 14 days, (b) between 15 and 30 days, (c) between register. 31 and 60 days, (d) between 61 and 90 days and (e) more than 90 days are not collated and to provide this Police: Pay information would incur disproportionate cost. DWP payment terms are calculated from the receipt Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for the of a valid invoice rather than the date of invoice. Home Department whether she considers herself The following information details the number of bound by the recent decision of the Police Arbitration invoices received January 2011-December 2011 and the Tribunal on pay and conditions for the police. [90784] percentage of invoices paid with in 30 days, 10 days and five days. Nick Herbert [holding answer 19 January 2012]: I Number of invoices received January 2011 to December 2011— refer the hon. Member to the written ministerial statement 665,829 of the Secretary of State for the Home Department, my The percentage of supplier payments made within 30 days—99.59% right hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs The percentage of supplier payments made within 10 days—98.41% May), on 30 January 2011, Official Report, columns The percentage of supplier payments made within five days— 31-33WS. 85.26% 279W Written Answers8 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 280W

Disability Living Allowance Local Authorities as we complete further estimates of the impact of the assessment on people receiving personal independence payment. Yasmin Qureshi: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what assessment his Department Employment and Support Allowance: Preston has made of the effect of changes to the lower rate of disability living allowance on the social care budgets of Mark Hendrick: To ask the Secretary of State for local authorities. [93331] Work and Pensions how many successful appeals there were against refusal to grant (a) employment and support allowance and (b) disability living allowance Maria Miller: No such changes to disability living in Preston constituency in 2011. [93522] allowance are proposed. Chris Grayling: The Department does not hold the Personal independence payment will replace disability information in the format requested. However, HM living allowance for working-age (16-64) adults from Courts and Tribunals Service have provided the following 2013-14. Eligibility for local authority social care provision table which shows the number of employment and is determined by each individual local authority who support allowance (ESA) and disability living allowance are best placed to understand the needs of their community. (DLA) appeals heard in the Preston tribunal venue Our intention is that the new benefit is more closely from January 2011 to October 2011 (the latest period targeted on those who face the greatest barriers to for which statistics have been published). The Preston leading full, active and independent lives. tribunal venue hears appeals made by applicants living We are still developing the assessment and published in the Preston constituency as well as other nearby details on the entitlement thresholds and revised assessment locations. The tribunal does not record the issue under criteria on 16 January and started a formal 15 week appeal and therefore cannot isolate data relating to consultation. We are engaging with Department of Health appeals on the basis of a claim for benefit having been and will continue to work closely with them, the Local refused. These figures therefore also include appeals Government Association and the Convention of Scottish made against decisions on the level of entitlement.

Outcomes of ESA and DLA appeals at Preston tribunal venue January-October 2011 Number Number of Number of decided in cases cleared at DWP decisions Percentage favour of Percentage in hearing upheld upheld appellant favour Other Percentage other

ESA 561 365 65 191 34 5 1 DLA 267 168 63 96 36 3 1 Notes: 1. Data taken from HM Courts and Tribunals Service management information; 2. ’Other’ refers to cases that have been, for example, withdrawn, superseded or struck out.

Housing Benefit Private sector landlords can also be paid directly if the council considers the tenant will either have difficulty Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for Work managing his or her finances, or it is improbable the and Pensions what the cost to the public purse of tenant will pay his or her rent. housing benefit or local housing allowance within the In April 2010 we introduced a temporary additional private rented sector was in (a) London and (b) measure where the council can pay a private sector Manchester in each of the last 10 years. [92971] landlord directly if it would help the tenant secure a new tenancy or remain in their current home at a Steve Webb: The available information has been placed reduced rent. in the Library.

Richard Fuller: To ask the Secretary of State for Richard Fuller: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what recent assessment he has Work and Pensions in how many cases local authorities made of the policy of paying housing benefit directly paid housing benefit directly to landlords due to rent to tenants; and what steps his Department is taking to arrears of (a) less and (b) more than eight weeks in ensure that housing benefit paid directly to tenants is each of the last five years. [93053] used for its intended purpose. [93033] Steve Webb: The information requested is only available Steve Webb: The Department has commissioned an for claimants subject to the local housing allowance independent consortium of leading research organisations whose benefit was paid to their landlord due to arrears to evaluate the effects of recent local housing allowance of more than eight weeks over the last two years. changes. The evaluation team is led by Ian Cole of Sheffield Hallam University, includes Peter Kemp (Oxford Claims paid to University) and members from the Institute for Fiscal landlord due to more Studies and Ipsos Mori. As at October each than eight weeks of Total local housing year arrears allowance caseload Safeguards exist within the housing benefit regulations where a landlord must be paid directly if the tenant is in 2010 80,000 1,070,000 eight weeks or more rent arrears. 2011 90,000 1,240,000 281W Written Answers8 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 282W

The information requested on payment of housing Notes: 1. Figures refer to benefit units which may be a single person or a benefit to claimants is available only for Great Britain couple. and the East of England and for the last two years. 2. Figures have been rounded to the nearest ten thousand. Table 2a: Payment of housing benefit to claimants in Great Britain, 3. Where a claim is paid to the landlord, and the reason given is October 2010 and October 2011 unknown, or appears not to be valid for a local housing allowance Payment to claimant claim, it has been assumed that payment to the landlord is not due to arrears in excess of eight weeks. Approaching 10% of cases had October 2010 October 2011 missing or incorrect reason codes in each period. Tenancy type Caseload Percentage Caseload Percentage 4. These data reflect the methodology for allocating claimants between local housing allowance (LHA) deregulated tenancies and non-LHA Local authority 0000 deregulated tenancies as revised in January 2012. This change caused Housing 130,000 7 130,000 7 an approximate 6% fall in LHA tenancies and a corresponding 30% association rise in non-LHA tenancies. All social rented 130,000 4 130,000 4 5. SHBE is a monthly electronic scan of claimant level data direct sector from local authority computer systems. It replaces the quarterly Local housing 870,000 81 960,000 78 aggregate clerical returns, and is available from November 2008. Over allowance time this will improve the accuracy, timeliness and level of detail Non-local 190,000 46 160,000 48 available in the published statistics, as the information supplied is housing quality assured. allowance Source: All private 1,050,000 72 1,120,000 71 Single Housing Benefit Extract (SHBE) rented sector Total 1,180,000 25 1,250,000 25 Source: Housing Benefit: Bedford SHBE Table 2b: Payment of housing benefit to claimants in the East of England, Richard Fuller: To ask the Secretary of State for October 2010 and October 2011 Work and Pensions how many recipients of housing Payment to claimant benefit there were in (a) Bedford constituency, (b) the October 2010 October 2011 east of England and (c) the UK in each of the last five Caseload Percentage Caseload Percentage years; and in how many such cases the benefit was paid Local authority 0 0 0 0 directly to the tenant. [93052] Housing 10,000 8 10,000 8 association Steve Webb: The following table shows the number of All social rented 10,000 5 10,000 5 housing benefit recipients in Great Britain and the east sector of England in the last five years. Local housing 70,000 84 80,000 81 allowance Table 1: Housing benefit recipients in Great Britain and east of England, August 2007 to October 2011 Non-local 20,000 51 20,000 53 housing Date Great Britain East of England allowance

August 2007 4,040,900 302,100 All private 90,000 75 90,000 75 rented sector November 2008 4,171,940 318,210 Total 100,000 27 100,000 28 October 2009 4,568,730 352,760 Notes: October 2010 4,789,490 371,510 1. Percentages rounded to the nearest whole percentage. October 2011 4,921,920 383,260 2. Local authority tenants with unknown payment destination are assumed to have payment made to the landlord. All other cases with unknown payment Notes: destination are excluded from the analysis. This affects only a small proportion 1. Figures for August 2007 are taken from quarterly housing benefit and council of cases. tax benefit management information, and exclude any extended payment cases. 3. These data reflect the methodology for allocating claimants between local 2. The figures refer to benefit units which may be a single person or a couple. housing allowance (LHA) deregulated tenancies and non-LHA deregulated 3. The figures have been rounded to the nearest 10. tenancies as revised in January 2012. This change caused an approximate 6% 4. SHBE is a monthly electronic scan of claimant level data direct from local fall in LHA tenancies and a corresponding 30% rise in non-LHA tenancies. authority computer systems. Over time this will improve the accuracy, timeliness 4. Also see notes for table 1. and level of detail available in the published statistics, as the information Source: supplied is quality assured. SHBE Source: Housing Benefit and Council Tax Benefit Management Information, and Jobcentre Plus Single Housing Benefit Extract (SHBE) Margaret Hodge: To ask the Secretary of State for Housing benefit caseload figures at the constituency Work and Pensions what the average ratio is of personal level are only available for January 2011. The following advisers to clients at Jobcentre Plus offices in London. table shows the number of housing benefit recipients in the Bedford parliamentary constituency and Great [93457] Britain. Chris Grayling: As at November 2011, the ratio of Table 2: Housing benefit recipients in Great Britain and Bedford parliamentary personal advisers to clients at Jobcentre Plus offices in constituency, January 2011 London and home counties was 1:141. In this case, we Date Great Britain Bedford are interpreting clients as being jobseekers allowance claimants. That is information we have access to via January 11 4,833,470 8,830 DWP IT systems. To ensure consistency with your Notes: 1. Parliamentary constituency is based on the address of the housing benefit related question about Barking and Dagenham, the recipient. Note that local authority level data are based on the authority information provided here relates to jobseekers allowance administering the benefit claim. It is possible for the recipient to reside in a claimants only. There are other personal advisers who different local authority to the one administering the benefit claim. Therefore if may not always be possible to make direct comparisons between parliamentary deal with different client groups such as people claiming constituency and local authority data. employment and support allowance and income support. 2. Also see notes for table 1. Source: Following a rationalisation of the DWP Operations SHBE network, DWP regional boundaries now cover London 283W Written Answers8 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 284W and the home counties. Therefore the information provided occupational default funds had an average annual is wider than that requested due to the reporting systems management charge of between 0.4% and 0.6% of funds being configured to the new group organisation. under management, with none higher than 0.9%.

Jobcentre Plus: Barking and Dagenham Pensions

Margaret Hodge: To ask the Secretary of State for Yasmin Qureshi: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what the ratio is of personal advisers Work and Pensions when he plans to bring forward to clients at Jobcentre Plus offices in Barking and proposals for an enhanced basic state pension. [93333] Dagenham. [93456]

Chris Grayling: As at November 2011, the ratio of Steve Webb: In April 2011 the Government published personal advisers to clients at the Barking office was a consultation paper on state pension reform that set 1:98. The position for Dagenham was 1:159. Clients in out two alternative options to a simpler, fairer state this case are those people claiming jobseekers allowance. pension system that better supports saving for retirement That is information we have access to via DWP IT Over three quarters of organisations who responded to systems. Those systems cannot provide details for these the consultation supported the single tier pension in geographic areas for transactions other personal advisers principle. will have with different Jobcentre Plus client groups Following the consultation the Government are such as people claiming employment and support allowance continuing to develop their proposals. Should we decide and income support. to proceed with reform we will publish a White Paper and impact assessment as part of the usual process. Pension Funds Social Security Benefits David Mowat: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (1) what assessment he has made of the Yasmin Qureshi: To ask the Secretary of State for potential (a) costs and (b) benefits to pension savers Work and Pensions what estimate he has made of the associated with high portfolio turnover; and if he will number of claimants who will be affected by the proposed make a statement; [92812] benefits cap in (a) Greater Manchester, (b) Bolton and (2) what estimate he has made of the average level of (c) Bolton South East constituency. [93308] portfolio turnover in (a) UK occupational pension funds and (b) pension products offered by FSA- Chris Grayling: On 23 January 2012 the Department regulated entities. [92813] published an updated impact assessment for the household benefit cap, which estimated that in Great Britain 67,000 Steve Webb: No data exist with which to answer the households would be affected by the cap, in the first questions although the DWP has commissioned an year of its implementation (the financial year 2013-14). independent research organisation to carry out a survey On the basis of this impact assessment, the number of charges in pension schemes. Part of this research will of households affected in Greater Manchester is aim to measure the portfolio turnover rate in private approximately 1,800 and the number of households sector occupational pension schemes and workplace affected in the Metropolitan borough of Bolton is personal pension schemes. Results will be published in approximately 200. The information is not available by summer 2012. parliamentary constituency. Following the concessions More generally, pension savers are free to invest in won in the House of Commons on 1 February, these whatever fund they choose. Typically, tracker funds figures are of course subject to change ahead of the may be expected to have a lower portfolio turnover rate, Welfare Reform Bill gaining Royal Assent. but in some areas active management and higher portfolio The impact assessment assumes that the situation of turnover may offer opportunities to outperform the these households will go unchanged, and they will not market and individuals can choose these more expensive, take any steps to either work enough hours to qualify more frequently transacting funds if they believe there for working tax credit, renegotiate their rent in situ, or is a benefit to doing so. find alternative accommodation. In all cases the Department The Government recognise the importance of charge is working to support households through this transition, levels to pension savers’ returns and welcomes the NAPF using existing provision through Jobcentre Plus and the initiative to bring the pensions industry together to Work programme to move as many into work as possible. improve the transparency of charges to customers and employers. We look forward to hearing conclusions Social Security Benefits: Fraud from that work. The Pensions Act 2011 extended the Government’s Michael Ellis: To ask the Secretary of State for Work powers to set a cap on charges in qualifying schemes for and Pensions what the cost to the public purse was of auto-enrolment. If we find that we do need to use a cap benefit fraud since May 2010. [93350] to ensure that individuals’ pension savings are protected from excessive charges, then this is something we will consider. However, the current evidence suggests that Chris Grayling: The information requested is not the vast majority of schemes do have appropriately low available. fund charges. The median charge is 1% for trust schemes The latest set of National Statistics that details the level (1.23% mean), with the larger schemes having lower of fraud in the benefit system was published on 12 July charges still. Recent qualitative research found that 2011, covering the period October 2009 to September 285W Written Answers8 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 286W

2010. These are based on 2010/11 financial year expenditure DEFENCE and estimate that benefit fraud cost the taxpayer £1.2 billion. Afghanistan: Entertainers

Social Security Benefits: National Insurance Mr Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Contributions pursuant to the answer of 23 January 2012, Official Report, column 4W, on entertainers: Afghanistan, what the name was of each of the show business personalities Mr Holloway: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and sporting professionals who visited Afghanistan in and Pensions how many people in Gravesham constituency the last year at public expense; whether they were paid a who have never made national insurance contributions fee from the public purse; what the amount paid was in are in receipt of each type of benefit. [93038] each such case; and whether any audio or video recordings took place during such trips for broadcast or commercial Chris Grayling: The information as requested is not use. [92323] available. Mr Philip Hammond [holding answer 30 January Universal Credit 2012]: A small number of high-profile show business and sporting personalities have visited Afghanistan. In 2011, celebrity visitors included Cheryl Cole, Colin Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Montgomery, Tim Westwood (who visited twice) and and Pensions what estimate he has made of the number England rugby players Neil Back and Steve Thompson. of school-age children living in households in receipt of None of these received a fee from the public purse. Tim universal credit in each of the next five academic years. Westwood broadcast a number of radio programmes [93197] from Afghanistan and Cheryl Cole was filmed for the Pride of Britain awards television programme. Chris Grayling: The information requested is not In addition, the Department has a contract with available. The detailed approach to managing the build-up Combined Services Entertainment to provide performances of universal credit caseloads is under development. by bands, comedians and dancers. The total cost of fees It is estimated that there will be around 4.5 million for performances in Afghanistan by entertainment school-age children living in households entitled to personnel under the Combined Services Entertainment universal credit once it is fully introduced. contract for 2011 was £205,782. The amount paid to these performers is commercial in confidence. No audio The estimate has been rounded to the nearest 0.1 million. or video recordings for broadcast or commercial use The estimate has been made using the Department’s took place during such trips. policy simulation model, which is based on the Family Resources Survey (FRS), and is consistent with the Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations updated impact assessment for universal credit which was published in October 2011, where caseload information Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence was provided on the basis of entitlement. what discussions he has had with his Afghan counterpart on the number of Afghan personnel needed to assist Universal Credit: Lancashire each branch of the UK armed forces located in Afghanistan; and how many such Afghan personnel there were providing such assistance in the latest period for which figures are Mark Hendrick: To ask the Secretary of State for available. [92304] Work and Pensions how many staff employed by his Department in Lancashire will be made redundant as a Mr Philip Hammond: The recruitment of locally result of the introduction of universal credit. [93524] employed civilians by the UK is not an issue routinely discussed with the Afghan Government. Chris Grayling: It is too early at this stage of the The UK currently employs 966 locally engaged civilians programme to detail the exact resource requirements in Afghanistan. These work directly and indirectly in for universal credit. support of operations, but none are employed in a combat role. Locally engaged civilians play an important Work Programme: High Peak and valued role in Afghanistan, undertaking roles that are more economically or more appropriately undertaken by contracted personnel. The Government keeps under Andrew Bingham: To ask the Secretary of State for review the roles they play and the scale of contracted Work and Pensions what assessment he has made of the effort in the light of the evolving operation. effect of the Work programme in High Peak constituency in increasing levels of employment. [93295] Mark Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what assessment he has made of the effect of Chris Grayling: We expect to see substantial indications the biannual change of brigade and its leadership on of the success of the Work programme from spring the effectiveness of operations in Afghanistan. [93058] 2013. A full independent evaluation has been commissioned for that year as the first participants complete their two Mr Philip Hammond: There are a number of measures years and I look forward to sharing the results with the in place to minimise the effect of the biannual changeover House in due course. We will closely monitor the of brigade on operational effectiveness in Afghanistan. effectiveness of the programme in the interim. These include extensive pre-deployment training, which 287W Written Answers8 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 288W incorporates regular interaction between the current incident, which include the introduction of first responder and future brigades, and a staggered handover process tools. Future modifications will include external hinges over a few weeks. There are, in addition, a number of on identified vehicle access points, to provide first responders key posts that deploy for longer periods of time and/or with an ability to gain access quickly. are phased in their deployment to aid continuity. The biannual change of brigade is kept under review in line Defence Equipment with wider planning for our operations in Afghanistan. Air Force: Rescue Services Stephen Barclay: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) how much his Department spent on (a) warehousing, (b) staff, (c) IT and (d) transport costs Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for for managing its defence inventory in the latest period Defence what plans he has to move the Royal Air Force for which figures are available; [93752] Mountain Rescue Team from RAF Kinloss. [93458] (2) which carrier companies his Department uses in Nick Harvey: There are no plans to move the Mountain respect of its defence inventory; and how much it spent Rescue Service from RAF Kinloss. with each carrier for each defence class of inventory item in the latest period for which figures are available; Armed Forces: Cadets [93753] (3) what estimate he has made of the (a) gross value Mr Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence and (b) impaired value of (i) capital spares, (ii) what the effects will be on (a) the size of the Cadet consumable spares, (iii) explosive capital items and (iv) Force and (b) the funding available to them for equipment consumable explosive items in the defence inventory; if budget reductions are made in his Department in (i) [93754] 2011-12, (ii) 2012-13 and (iii) 2013-14. [93601] (4) what estimate he has made of the proportion of the defence inventory which is surplus to military Mr Robathan: The cadet forces sponsored by the requirements and is stored (a) in the UK, (b) in Ministry of Defence make a unique contribution to Germany and (c) elsewhere; [93755] national life. It was announced as part of the strategic defence and security review that the cadet forces are to (5) what estimate his Department has made of the be sustained. The youth engagement review was tasked proportion of the defence inventory which is not fit for with determining the Defence requirement to engage immediate military issue. [93756] with young people and how it can most cost effectively be delivered. The review is due to provide its final Peter Luff [holding answer 6 February 2012]: This recommendations shortly. information is not held centrally and will take time to collate. I will write to my hon. Friend as soon as this Current funding forecasts for financial year 2011-12 task has been completed. are provided in the following table. FY 2011-12 Stephen Barclay: To ask the Secretary of State for £ million Defence (1) what plans his Department has to (a) close and (b) reduce in size locations in Germany used for Sea cadets 9.5 the warehousing of defence inventory items; and what Army cadets 48.6 estimate his Department has made of the associated Air cadets 17.7 cost of disposal or shipment of items stored in those Future funding is currently being finalised. locations; [94100] (2) what revenue has been raised from the disposal of Armed Forces: Vehicles defence inventory items in each category in the last 12 months; [94101] Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for (3) what (a) surplus and (b) obsolete items in the Defence whether he plans to equip the Mark-8 MOD 1 defence inventory and located in (i) the UK, (ii) Germany delivery vehicles with lithium-ion batteries. [93185] and (iii) elsewhere his Department has identified in the last 12 months. [94102] Peter Luff: There are no plans to equip the Mark-8 MOD 1 delivery vehicle with lithium-ion batteries. Peter Luff [holding answer 7 February 2012]: This Armoured Fighting Vehicles information is not held centrally and will take time to collate. I will write to the hon. Member as soon as this task has been completed. Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many pieces of heavy duty cutting equipment Defence Equipment: Sales capable of assisting with the rescue of injured armed forces personnel from armoured vehicles are available in each country; and if he will make a statement. David Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for [93032] Defence (1) when he plans to start the procurement process for the defence logistics supply chain (storage Peter Luff: The Ministry of Defence has no requirement and distribution) business; and what the timetable is for for specialist cutting equipment to assist in the rescue of completing the process; [93233] personnel trapped in armoured vehicles. Modifications (2) what work his Department has completed on and enhancements to protected mobility vehicles enable option appraisal for the future of the defence logistical personnel to be released more quickly in the event of an supply chain (storage and distribution) business; [93234] 289W Written Answers8 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 290W

(3) what the (a) scope and (b) structure of the 1 Expenditure relating to utilities for this financial year is not held procurement process is for the defence logistics supply centrally for the majority of properties. chain (storage and distribution) business. [93242] 2 This property is part of the Crown Estate and a grant in aid is payable. Peter Luff [holding answer 2 February 2012]: The Expenditure relating to Official Service Residences Ministry of Defence’s Logistic Commodities and Services was kept under close scrutiny and when it was practical group, which includes the storage and distribution function, to do so, staff were utilised from other residences in is currently developing a Transformation Programme support of a function to maximise the use of resources. which will consider a number of options. Civilian staff were retained unless the use of Service personnel was more appropriate for security reasons. Defence: Expenditure Departmental Training Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how much (a) his Department, (b) the Chief Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for of the Defence Staff, (c) the Chief of the General Staff, Defence how many away days his Department has held (d) the Chief of the Air Staff, (e) the First Sea Lord, since May 2010; what the location was of each such (f) the Adjutant General, (g) the Commander in Chief away day; how many staff attended; and what the cost Land General, (h) the General Officer Commanding was of each such event. [93842] Northern Ireland and (i) the General Officer Commanding London District spent on (i) staff, (ii) rent, (iii) utilities Mr Robathan: This information is not held centrally and (iv) maintenance in the latest period for which and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. figures are available. [88717] The Ministry of Defence (MOD) is committed to developing its staff and there are benefits from holding Mr Philip Hammond [holding answer 10 January away days and team building events. In the light of the 2012]: Under previous arrangements, Official Service current economic climate, however, we have instructed Residences (OSRs) were provided for senior officers in staff that such events should not be authorised unless certain posts which required them to undertake official they can be held at no extra cost on MOD premises. hospitality for Defence purposes. As announced by the Minister for Defence Personnel, Welfare and Veterans, Departmental Travel my right hon. Friend the Member for South Leicestershire (Mr Robathan), on 12 December 2011, Official Report, Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence column 63WS, as part of our plans to tackle the deficit whether his Department has agreed any contracts with this Government inherited, these arrangements have (a) private hire vehicle and (b) taxi companies since now been discontinued and a new Domestic Assistance May 2010. [92844] policy will realise savings of at least £3 million per year from April 2012. Peter Luff: The Ministry of Defence (MOD), under Figures for expenditure on Official Service Residences Project Phoenix, signed a contract in August 2011 with in the financial year 2010-11 are currently being finalised. Babcock International Group PLC, as part of a pan- For the financial year 2009-10 the costs associated with Government Framework agreement, which covers the the properties occupied by these senior officers are set management of fleet and self drive vehicles for MOD out in the following table. The Adjutant-General has personnel in the UK. This contract is gradually replacing not been included as he did not occupy an Official the existing arrangements and includes a provision, Service Residence during the period. It should be which is still to be introduced, for vehicles with a driver emphasised that responsibility for decisions on expenditure (i.e. private hire vehicles); however this comprises only a relating to these properties lies with the Ministry of very small element of the overall contract. Defence, and not with the officers who occupied them Outside of this contract, military units may operate at the time, or the current occupants. local arrangements with taxi companies or with private hire companies. These details are not held centrally and £ could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Household Planned Post staff Rent Utilitiesl1 maintenance Guided Weapons: Scotland

Chief of the 128,000 17,000 — 450 Defence Staff Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for 1st Sea Lord and 161,000 18,000 — 520 Defence how much of the demonstrator contract for Chief of the Naval the Sea Ceptor missile he estimates will be spent in Staff Scotland. [93919] Chief of the 161,000 2108,000 — 0 General Staff Peter Luff: The Sea Ceptor Demonstration Phase Chief of the Air 97,000 49,000 — 250 contract, worth £483 million, has been placed with Staff MBDA (UK) as prime contractor. The award of any Commander in 17,600 18,000 — 440 sub-contract is the responsibility of MBDA. Chief Land General Officer 102,000 16,000 — 136,000 Military Aircraft Commanding London District General Officer 80,000 9,000 3,500 6,000 Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Commanding Defence (1) what the full service date is for the RAF Northern Ireland Voyager aircraft; [93461] 291W Written Answers8 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 292W

(2) how many successful (a) operational and (b) Aircraft type Base Number training in-flight refuelling missions the Voyager aircraft has made; and which aircraft were re-fuelled. Typhoon Falklands 4 [93462] Typhoon Warton 10

Peter Luff: Full capability for the new platform will Military Aircraft: Deployment be achieved incrementally to achieve the in service date of May 2014. The full service date for the RAF Voyager aircraft is September 2016 when the fleet will consist of Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence 14 aircraft. what the cost to his Department is of deploying (a) Typhoon and (b) Tornado aircraft; how many people There have been no operational or training flights. are needed to operate each such aircraft; and if he will make a statement. [89929] Thomas Docherty: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence pursuant to the answer of 31 January 2012, Peter Luff: The number of staff required to deploy Official Report, columns 575-6W, on military aircraft, aircraft will vary according to the scenario involved. how many (a) Apache, (b) Gazelle, (c) Hawk T1/T1A/ On costs, I refer the hon. Member to the answer T1W, (d) Islander Mk1 and Mk2, (e) Lynx Mk7, (f) I gave on 14 September 2010, Official Report, column Lynx Mk9/9a, (g) Sea King Mk3/3a, (h) Tornado 928W,to the hon. Member for Moray (Angus Robertson). GR4 and (i) Typhoon aircraft are based at each site listed in the answer. [93757] Military Aircraft: Repairs and Maintenance

Peter Luff [holding answer 6 February 2012]: The Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for number of aircraft at a particular Ministry of Defence Defence what efficiency savings have been made on operating base will vary on a day-to-day basis according maintenance of Royal Air Force planes. [90038] to normal fleet management activities, including requirements for mandated maintenance, upgrade Peter Luff [holding answer 16 January 2012]: The programmes and operational deployments. The information Royal Air Force has operated fleets of a number of contained in the following table is correct as of 31 different aircraft types over a long period of time. January 2012. Some of the bases listed in my answer of Maintenance arrangements have evolved as aircraft Official Report 31 January 2012, , columns 575-6W, do technology has become increasingly more complex and not appear in this table as there were no aircraft of the lessons are learned from previous contracts and processes. relevant type located there on this date. Current arrangements vary by fleet but range from in-house maintenance carried out by qualified service Aircraft type Base Number personnel to availability contracts, specifying airframe Apache Wattisham 26 numbers and flying hours but inherently including Apache Middle Wallop 12 maintenance. Gazelle Aldergrove 9 Through this evolution, efficiencies have been made Gazelle Suffield (Canada) 4 through the Department’s close partnership with industry Gazelle Middle Wallop 4 and rationalisation of infrastructure and processes. The Hawk T1/T1A/T1W Valley 34 Royal Air Force and industry are committed to a strategy Hawk T1/T1A/T1W Leeming 18 of continuous improvement of both the efficiency and Hawk T1/T1A/T1W Culdrose 15 the effectiveness of aircraft maintenance. Hawk T1/T1A/T1W Scampton 11 Islander Mk1 and Aldergrove 1 Military Bases: Northern Ireland Mk2 Lynx Mk7 Odiham 5 Dr McCrea: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Lynx Mk7 Yeovilton 6 how many army personnel are based at each base in Lynx Mk7 Gutersloh 8 Northern Ireland. [93533] Lynx Mk7 Middle Wallop 11 Lynx Mk9/9a Dishforth 5 Nick Harvey: As at December 2011, the number of Lynx Mk9/9a Odiham 1 regular army personnel based at each location in Northern Lynx Mk9/9a Middle Wallop 1 Ireland was as follows: Sea King Mk3/3a Lossiemouth 2 Sea King Mk3/3a Boulmer 2 Location Numberl Sea King Mk3/3a Leconfield 2 Joint Helicopter Command Flying 1,000 Sea King Mk3/3a Valley 5 Station Aldergrove, Sea King Mk3/3a Chivenor 2 Abercorn Barracks, Ballykinler 650 Sea King Mk3/3a Wattisham 2 Thiepval Barracks, Lisburn 1,120 Sea King Mk3/3a Falkland Islands 2 Kinnegar Base 370 Tornado GR4 Marham 65 Palace Barracks, Holywood 670 Tornado GR4 Lossiemouth 48 1 Rounded to the nearest 10. Tornado GR4 Coningsby 4 Typhoon Coningsby 53 In addition there were some 50 regular army personnel Typhoon Leuchars 19 serving at reserve forces locations throughout Northern Ireland. 293W Written Answers8 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 294W

Puma Helicopters MOD continues to engage with local communities in a number of ways, including through initiatives such as Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for the armed forces community covenant, our sponsored Defence whether he plans to reduce the order for life- cadet forces and schemes such as the Education Outreach extended Puma helicopters. [82758] programme, where military and civilian staff mentor and support students in developing their career and Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for employability skills. Voluntary sector stakeholders are Defence what recent progress his Department has given the opportunity to have their observations published made on the Puma upgrade programme. [91874] alongside the annual report on the armed forces covenant. Trident Submarines Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what the status is of the Puma life extension Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for programme. [83383] Defence what alternative sites have been identified at Peter Luff [holding answer 28 November 2011 and which Trident submarines could be located. [93465] 26 January 2012]: Working with Eurocopter, the Ministry of Defence continues to make progress on the Puma Peter Luff: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I Life Extension Programme. As part of the annual Planning gave on 30 January 2012, Official Report, column 424W, Round process, the Ministry of Defence routinely considers to the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn), a variety of options for how to deliver military capability the hon. Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Alison in the light of the latest financial and strategic context. Seabeck) and my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Oliver Colvile). RAF Northolt Type 45 Destroyers Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what estimate he has made of the market value of RAF Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Northolt; and if he will make a statement. [93782] Defence whether the Sea Viper system is fully operational on the Type 45 Destroyers (a) on operations and (b) Peter Luff: Details of all Ministry of Defence (MOD) available for operations. [93459] land holdings with asset valuation over £1 million can be found in chapter seven of the National Asset Register, Peter Luff: The Sea Viper system has achieved full last published by HM Treasury in 2007. operational capability. We do not comment on the operational status of individual warships as to do so The MOD does not routinely assess the current market would, or would be likely to, prejudice the capability, value of all its estate because estimated receipts will effectiveness or security of the armed forces. depend on market conditions and other factors. Where valuations are obtained, these have to remain commercially USA: Military Alliances confidential to avoid prejudicing the public interest in securing value for money. Thomas Docherty: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many (a) Royal Air Force and (b) Royal Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Navy personnel he expects to begin training with US what discussions he has had with the Mayor of London forces as part of the US/UK Carrier Co-operation on the future of RAF Northolt; and if he will make a project in each year until 2020. [94237] statement. [93783] Peter Luff [holding answer 7 February 2012]: The Peter Luff [holding answer 6 February 2012]: None. Statement of Intent, jointly signed at Defence Secretary level on 5 January 2012, provides a high level framework Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence for US/UK co-operation as the UK regenerates a carrier what plans his Department has for the future of RAF strike capability.Principal co-operative activities, including Northolt; and if he will make a statement. [93786] training, will be taken forward progressively through the working group structure established by the Statement Peter Luff [holding answer 6 February 2012]: I refer of Intent and may, if necessary, be subject to separate the hon. Member to the answer I gave on 28 November and specific agreements. It is not possible at this early 2011, Official Report, column 689W,to the hon. Member stage to provide estimates of the total number of personnel for Cambridge (Dr Huppert). to be trained by US forces, which might arise from Third Sector co-operative activities undertaken within the framework of the Statement of Intent. Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what contribution his Department is making to implementation of the Compact with the voluntary TRANSPORT sector; and if he will make a statement. [92287] Departmental Billing Mr Robathan: The Ministry of Defence (MOD) fully supports the Compact with the voluntary sector. We Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport have a long history of working closely and successfully how many and what proportion of her Department’s with outside organisations to support both local invoices from its private sector suppliers were paid (a) communities and the armed forces community. The within 14 days, (b) between 15 and 30 days, (c) between 295W Written Answers8 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 296W

31 and 60 days, (d) between 61 and 90 days and (e) 31 December 2011, out of 4,549 responses to planning more than 90 days after receipt in the last 12 months. consultations. There were 529 “holding” responses asking [93440] for more information before approval could be given.

Norman Baker: The Department for Transport and M1: Repairs and Maintenance its seven Executive agencies monitor the payment performance for all vendor invoices in accordance with Mr Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport the criteria laid down by Government, namely: when she expects the roadworks on the M1 motorway 80% of invoices should be paid within five working, days of in the vicinity of junction 19 to be completed with all receipt, lanes reopened and the temporary lower speed limit 98% of invoices should be paid within 30 working days of removed. [93598] receipt. The most recent statistics available, for December Mike Penning: The current works on the M1 motorway 2011, set out that the Department for Transport and its in the vicinity of junction 19 are expected to complete agencies paid 92.7% of vendor invoices within five by spring 2012, allowing the temporary speed limits and working days, and 99.7% within 30 working days. The lane restrictions to be lifted. full statistics for the last 12 months, and supporting However, in future, in order to keep the network in graphs, are published on the Department for Transport’s serviceable condition, it may be necessary for the Highways website at the following address: Agency to undertake maintenance works in the vicinity http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/prompt-payment- of the junction, and traffic management may be required statistics/statistics.pdf as a result. The equivalent information for alternative payment periods could be provided only at disproportionate Mr Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport cost. when she expects the roadworks south of junction 13 of The Department for Transport is made up of a the M1 motorway to be completed with all lanes reopened central Department and seven Executive agencies, as and the temporary lower speed limit removed. [93600] follows: Highways Agency (HA) Mike Penning: The M1 improvement scheme between Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) junctions 10 and 13 is planned to be fully complete by spring 2013, with all lanes reopened and the temporary Driving Standards Agency (DSA) lower speed limit removed. Maritime and Coastguard Agency (MCA) Vehicle and Operator Services Agency (VOSA) M1: Road Traffic Offences Vehicle Certification Agency (VCA) Government Car and Despatch Agency (GCDA) Mr Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport This response covers all eight entities. what offences other than speeding have been detected by the fixed gantry cameras on the M1 motorway in (a) Departmental Travel Nottinghamshire and (b) Hertfordshire; and if she will make a statement. [93599] Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport pursuant to the written ministerial statement of 16 Mike Penning: The fixed gantry-mounted cameras on January 2012, Official Report, column 31WS, on cost of the M1 motorway in Nottinghamshire and Hertfordshire ministerial cars, whether her Department has any other do not detect offences other than speeding. arrangements for ministerial travel; and how much her Department has spent on (a) private hire vehicles and Network Rail: Compensation (b) taxis for each Minister since May 2010. [92829]

Mike Penning: DFT Ministers use a mix of ministerial Stella Creasy: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport cars and public transport. I regret that the other information (1) what the costs were of compensation claims (a) requested is not held in the format requested. received, (b) investigated and (c) settled by Network Rail for damage to property caused by train vibration In accordance with the Ministerial Code, Ministers in between 2002 and 2012; [93943] the Department always ensure that they make efficient and cost-effective travel arrangements. (2) how many investigations were (a) requested and (b) undertaken by independent structural engineers on Highways Agency: Planning Permission behalf of Network Rail into damage to property caused by train vibration between 2002 and 2012; Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for [93944] Transport how many planning applications for development (3) how many compensation claims were (a) received, for economic development and regeneration have been (b) investigated and (c) settled by Network Rail for (a) stopped and (b) delayed as a result of objections damage to property caused by train vibration between from the Highways Agency in the last 18 months. 2002 and 2012. [93945] [93908] Mike Penning: The investigation and settlement of Mike Penning [holding answer 6 February 2012]: The compensation claims for damage to property caused by Highways Agency has directed non-approval of 17 planning train vibration are operational matters for Network applications in the 18 month period from 1 July 2010 to Rail as the owner and operator of the national network. 297W Written Answers8 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 298W

Transport: Expenditure Departmental Training

Dr Whiteford: To ask the Secretary of State for Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what her Department spent on (a) all transport, Northern Ireland how many away days his Department (b) light rail and tram schemes and (c) bus subsidies in has held since May 2010; what the location was of each each local authority area in England and Wales per such away day; how many staff attended; and what the capita in the most recent period for which figures are cost was of each such event. [93851] available. [93473] Norman Baker: An analysis of Department for Transport Mr Paterson: Since May 2010, there has been one expenditure according to the region receiving benefit away day held by staff in my Department. This took can be found in the Department’s annual report and place in central London. It was attended by 20 members accounts for 2010-11, Table 7 (page 44): of staff and the total cost was less than £100. http://www.official-documents.gov.uk/document/hc1012/hc09/ Welfare State: Reform 0972/0972.pdf The Department does not publish this information at Dr Francis: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern local authority level. Ireland what recent discussions he has had with (a) the Most public expenditure on buses, light rail and Secretary of State for Work and Pensions and (b) other trams is managed by local authorities. The Department on the implications of the provisions of the Welfare for Communities and Local Government publishes data Reform Bill for (i) payment of housing benefit and (ii) on local authority expenditure by service which includes other matters in Northern Ireland; and if he will make a ″ ″ ″ categories on Concessionary fares , Support to operators statement. [93762] —bus services″, ″Support to operators —rail services″, ″Support to operators—other public transport services″, ″ ″ Mr Paterson: I have regular discussions with DWP and Public transport co-ordination . The data for 2010-11 Ministers and Northern Ireland Ministers on the is available at: implications of the Government’s reforms to the welfare Revenue: system. These reforms will tackle the twin problems of http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/corporate/ poverty and welfare dependency and also end the something statistics/revenue201011localdata for nothing culture encouraged by the policies of the Capital: previous administration. http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/corporate/ The Government’s reforms will ensure that work statistics/capitallocaldata201011 pays and will always be seen to pay. Under our plans, for every hour a person works they will he better off. Universal credit will lift 900,000 individuals including NORTHERN IRELAND more than 350,000 children and 550,000 working-age adults across the UK, including Northern Ireland, out Bill of Rights of poverty. Dr Francis: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern The personal independence payment will ensure that Ireland what recent discussions he has had with external support is targeted to help those who face the greatest bodies on a Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland; and if barriers to leading full, active and independent lives. he will make a statement. [93761] It is not fair that households on out-of-work benefits should receive a greater income from benefits than the Mr Swire: Ministers and officials have continued to average earnings of working households. To deal with discuss this issue with political parties and human rights this unfairness our reforms will also cap the amount of groups. In November the Secretary of State for Northern benefits in line with average weekly earnings. Our housing Ireland, my right hon. Friend the Member for North benefit reforms will also encourage people to make Shropshire (Mr Paterson), and I met the UN Deputy realistic choices about how they will meet the rent on a High Commissioner for Human Rights to discuss a property that is larger than they need. range of human rights issues relating to Northern Ireland, We will also simplify the welfare system which under including a Bill of Rights. the previous Administration had become hugely complex Our position remains that we want to see progress on and bureaucratic. Our reforms will tackle the unsustainable this issue on the basis of consensus within Northern rise in spending on benefits and tax credits as part of Ireland. the Government’s continuing efforts to reduce the record Departmental Food deficit that we inherited from the previous Administration.

Neil Parish: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what proportion of food purchased by his Department was produced in the UK in each of the last CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT five years. [93727] Departmental Recruitment Mr Paterson: My Department and the public bodies for which I am responsible, aim to promote Northern Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Ireland produce. All meat, fish and vegetables purchased Olympics, Media and Sport how much his Department by my Department in the past five years have been has spent on (a) recruitment services and (b) executive locally sourced where possible, depending on seasonal search agencies in each month since May 2010; and if availability. he will make a statement. [93570] 299W Written Answers8 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 300W

John Penrose: The Department has spent £23,200 on INDEPENDENT PARLIAMENTARY recruitment services since May 2010 (March 2011 £13,200 STANDARDS AUTHORITY COMMITTEE and November 2011 £10,000) and £17,000 on executive search agencies (December 2010 £10,000 and November Public Expenditure 2011 £7,000). James Morris: To ask the hon. Member for Broxbourne, The Department has used external recruitment services representing the Speaker’s Committee for the Independent only when it has been necessary to recruit to specialist Parliamentary Standards Authority, for what reason roles that cannot be filled through the normal civil the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority service recruitment arrangements. (IPSA) has requested a supplementary estimate for Expenditure on executive search agencies is related to 2011-12; and what decision the Speaker’s Committee candidates for public appointments to the boards of for the IPSA has reached in relation to that request. arm’s length bodies and not to departmental recruitment. [93799] Mr Charles Walker: IPSA has requested a supplementary Tourism: Cumbria estimate to enable it: (a) to transfer existing provision in support of Members’ salaries, staff costs and expenses from unallocated (non-cash) provision to active funds; Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, (b) to make technical adjustments in line with the Olympics, Media and Sport (1) how many (a) overseas Government’s Clear Line of Sight project and (c) to and (b) UK tourists visited (i) Cumbria and (ii) make consequential changes to its net cash requirement. Westmorland and Lonsdale constituency in each of the It has taken this step on a precautionary basis, as the last five years; [94303] Government’s revised estimates procedures provide only (2) how many people were employed in the tourism one opportunity each year to apply for a supplementary sector in Westmorland and Lonsdale constituency in estimate. each of the last five years. [94304] The Committee has approved the draft supplementary estimate without modification, in line with the advice provided to it under statute by HM Treasury. The draft Mr Vaizey: The International Passenger Survey, supplementary estimate will now be laid before the conducted by the Office for National Statistics provides House. The Committee’s letter to Sir Ian Kennedy details of the number of overseas visits to Cumbria in responding to IPSA’s request is published on the the last five years. The data can be found here: Committee’s webpage at: www.parliament.uk/scipsa http://www.visitbritain.org/insightsandstatistics/ inboundvisitorstatistics/regions/towns.aspx and is also summarised in the following table: TREASURY Cumbria Visits (thousand) Banks: Regulation

2005 210 Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Chancellor of the 2006 226 Exchequer whether his Department plans to publish an 2007 229 analysis of the effectiveness of Project Merlin after the 2008 213 expiry of the agreement with the banks. [94198] 2009 177 2010 196 Mr Hoban: The final results for Project Merlin will be published on 13 February. VisitEngland’s Great Britain Tourism Survey for 2008-10, Banks: Tax Yields reports that Cumbria is the fourth most popular county outside London for domestic visits, attracting 3,717,000 Andrew Bridgen: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer overnight visits annually: how much revenue from taxes was received from the banking industry in each year between 2001 and 2010. http://www.visitengland.org/insight-statistics/major-tourism- [93769] surveys/overnightvisitors/UKTS2010/ LA_County_2006_2010.aspx Mr Hoban: On 31 August 2011 HM Revenue and Details of visits are not collated at the Westmorland Customs (HMRC) published Official Statistics relating and Lonsdale constituency level. However, VisitBritain to Pay As You Earn (PAYE) and corporation tax (CT) has published a study by Deloitte in 2010 which provides receipts from the banking sector for the financial years information about the top 50 districts with the highest 2005-06 to 2010-11. Data for CT and PAYE are not share of employees in the visitor economy: available for earlier years. A link to the Official Statistics publication is provided here: http://www.visitbritain.org/Images/Economic%20case% http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/banking/menu.htm 20for%20the%20Visitor%20Economy%20- Banks also pay a number of other taxes, including %20Phase%202%20-%2026%20July%202010%20- irrecoverable value added tax (VAT). HMRC does not %20FINAL_tcm29-14561.pdf currently produce data on receipts received from the The study (annex A, page 75) found that 8,400 people in banking sector in respect of these taxes. In addition, the Westmoreland and Lonsdale constituency were banks have been liable for the bank levy since its employed in tourism, representing 20.6% of all jobs. introduction in January 2011. 301W Written Answers8 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 302W

Business: Loans Mr Gauke: HM Revenue and Customs have produced an estimate of the exchequer impact of a decrease in the Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Chancellor of the main rate of corporation tax (CT) to 12.5% in Scotland. Exchequer what safeguards his Department plans to This estimate was published by HM Treasury on 13 July put in place to ensure that lower funding costs for banks 2011. A link to this publication is provided here: as a result of credit easing are passed on to small http://www.scotlandoffice.gov.uk/scotlandoffice/15708.html businesses. [94201] HM Revenue and Customs have also produced an estimate of the exchequer impact of a decrease in the Mr Hoban: Banks participating in the National Loan main rate of CT to 12.5% in Northern Ireland. This Guarantee scheme will be contractually obliged to pass estimate was published in the Government’s consultation on the benefit of lower cost funds to smaller businesses. on rebalancing the Northern Ireland economy. A link Canal and River Trust: Finance to which is provided here: http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/ Ms Ritchie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer consult_rebalancing_ni_economy.htm what Barnett consequentials will result from the Government’s Estimates of the impact of other CT rate cuts in grant to the Canal and River Trust. [94139] Scotland and Northern Ireland and CT rate cuts in England and Wales and the UK cannot be produced for Danny Alexander: The grant to the Canal and River this answer due to disproportionate costs. Trust is being funded from within DEFRA’s existing budget. Therefore there will be no Barnett consequentials. Mr Bain: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer The devolved Administrations received Barnett what the yield in corporation tax was from (a) consequentials for DEFRA’s budget at the 2010 spending Scotland, (b) Northern Ireland, (c) England and review in the usual way. Wales and (d) the UK in each of the last four financial Climate Change Levy: Metals years. [94204]

Owen Smith: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Mr Gauke: Figures for corporation tax (CT) net which businesses he expects to be affected by proposals receipts for the UK as a whole from 1998-99 to 2010-11 to change the climate change levy for metal recycling areavailableinTable11.1AofHMRevenueandCustoms processes. [93814] (HMRC’s) CT Statistics publication. The CT receipts figures for 2011-12 will be available when this publication Miss Chloe Smith: As announced on 6 December is updated in the summer. The current publication is 2011, the UK secured state aid approval for an 80% available on the internet at: relief from the climate change levy for businesses that http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/corporate_tax/corporation-tax- undertake aluminium and steel recycling processes. These statistics.pdf businesses will be required to pay a new 20% lower rate With regard to Northern Ireland, I refer the hon. of the climate change levy from 1 April 2012. Member to paragraph 4.34 (page 26) of the consultation The Tax Impact and Information Note published on document “Rebalancing the Northern Ireland economy”, 6 December 2011 set out the impacts of introducing the published by HM Treasury on 24 March 2011, in which recycling lower rate and is available at: estimates of the amount of CT for Northern Ireland http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/budget2011/tiin6845.pdf based companies have been published. The analysis of Northern Ireland postcodes implies that Northern Ireland Corporation Tax corporation tax receipts excluding North sea oil and gas, and also excluding branches, varied between 1.3% Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Chancellor of the and 1.6% of UK corporation tax receipts between Exchequer what discussions he has had with each devolved 2002-03 and 2007-08, broadly averaging 1.5%. Administration on the devolution of responsibility for A link to the full document is given here: corporation tax. [93865] http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/ Mr Gauke: Treasury Ministers meet regularly with rebalancing_the_northern_ireland_economy_consultation.pdf Ministers in the devolved Administrations to discuss a With regard to Scotland, I refer the hon. Member to wide range of issues. paragraphs 8, 9, 12 and 13 (pages 3 and 4) of the I also chair the Ministerial Working Group on HMRC explanatory note on estimating the cost of a Rebalancing the Northern Ireland Economy. This group reduction in the CT rate in Scotland, published by HM has discussed a range of issues including the possible Treasury on 13 July 2011., in which estimates of the devolution of responsibility for varying the rate of proportion of onshore CT for Scotland based companies corporation tax to the Northern Ireland Assembly. have been published. The proportion of onshore UK CT receipts which relate to Scotland is estimated to be Corporation Tax: Tax Yields 7%. The methodology used in deriving this proportion is consistent with the estimates of the cost of a CT rate Mr Bain: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if change in Northern Ireland published in the HM Treasury he will estimate the effect on the yield in corporation Consultation document, “Rebalancing the Northern tax from (a) Scotland, (b) Northern Ireland, (c) Ireland economy”. Companies whose registered address England and Wales and (d) the UK if the taxable rate has a Scottish postcode, excluding UK oil and gas were reduced to (i) 12.5 per cent., (ii) 16 per cent. and companies, have been identified, and the total CT accrual (iii) 20 per cent. in each of the next four financial years. from these companies has been calculated. Estimates [94119] have been produced in this way for 2004-05 to 2008-09. 303W Written Answers8 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 304W

Across these years, Scottish registered companies make Mr Hoban [holding answer 6 February 2012]: The up around 7% of total UK onshore CT accruals. rate of interest applicable to each tranche of the bilateral A link to the full document is given here: loan to Ireland is set out in the Loan Agreement that I http://www.scotlandoffice.gov.uk/scotlandoffice/files/ deposited in the Library of the House on 10 January HMRC%20Corporation%20tax%20paper%20july%202011.pdf 2011. Separate estimates for England and Wales are not In accordance with the Loan Agreement and as I set available. out in my reply to my hon. Friend on 1 November 2011, Official Report, columns 572-73W, the rate of interest Counterfeit Manufacturing on each tranche of the loan is equal to the 7.5 year sterling swap rate at the time of disbursement plus a fixed margin of 229 basis points. Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what steps his Department is taking to The 7.5 year sterling swap rate on 30 January, as used reduce the availability of counterfeit (a) alcohol and for the purposes of calculating the rate of interest (b) cigarettes sold in shops. [93328] applicable to the second tranche of the bilateral loan, was 1.958 per cent per annum. Miss Chloe Smith: The Government are committed However, as I set out in my reply to my hon. Friend to tackling the illicit trade in non-UK duty paid alcohol on 9 November 2011, Official Report, column 339W, and cigarettes, including counterfeit products. Last year the Chancellor of the Exchequer has taken the decision they published a comprehensive new tobacco strategy in principle to lower the interest rate on the bilateral which is available at: loan to Ireland. The new interest rate is yet to be agreed, www.hmrc.gov.uk/news/tackling-tobacco.htm but it will apply retrospectively to those tranches of the A strategy to tackle alcohol fraud was published in loan that have already been disbursed, including those 2009, which is available at: on 14 October 2011 and 30 January 2012. www.hmrc.gov.uk/budget2009/tackling-alcohol-2850.pdf Non-Domestic Rates: Tourism HMRC works collaboratively with other enforcement agencies, such as Trading Standards and the police to clamp down on the sales of illicit alcohol and tobacco Simon Hart: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer sold in shops. Working together across agencies allows a whether his Department has given any consideration to much wider range of powers and sanctions to be applied the possibility of allowing seasonal variations of including criminal prosecution, seizure of goods, vehicles business rates in high tourism areas to encourage and equipment, assessment for evaded excise duty and businesses to remain open during the off-peak season. the issue of civil financial penalties. Additionally shops [94186] found to be selling illicit products can have their licence to sell alcohol revoked or suspended. Mr Gauke: Annual business rates bills already account for different income potentials across different seasons. Departmental Billing The annual bill is then spread equally across payments. However, it would be at the discretion of the local Chris Ruane: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer billing authority to agree any bespoke payment schedule. how many and what proportion of his Department’s invoices from its private sector suppliers were paid Pension Funds (a) within 14 days, (b) between 15 and 30 days, (c) between 31 and 60 days, (d) between 61 and 90 days Rachel Reeves: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer and (e) more than 90 days after receipt in the last what discussions he has had with pension funds on the 12 months. [93451] allocation of funding for infrastructure under his memorandum of understanding with pension funds; Miss Chloe Smith: HM Treasury’s aim is to pay all how many pension funds have agreed to provide funding; valid goods and services invoices within five working and what such money has been allocated in each year of days and this applies to all suppliers of goods and this Parliament. [94209] services. The Department only monitors its performance against its five day target and information for other periods could be provided only at disproportionate Danny Alexander [holding answer 7 February 2012]: cost. The Treasury is currently in discussions with the National Association of Pension Funds (NAPF) and the Pension Details of HM Treasury’s performance against the Protection Fund (PPF) to develop a pension infrastructure five working day aim since May 2010 can be found on platform which will be wholly owned by UK Pension the Department’s website at: Funds. www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/group_payment_performance.htm A public update of progress will be published at the Loans: Republic of Ireland Budget.

Mr Chope: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Welfare Tax Credits pursuant to the written statement of 31 January 2012, Official Report, column 38WS, on bilateral loan: Ireland, Mr Frank Field: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what the rate of interest payable is on the second what estimate he has made of the number of people instalment of the loan; and what the 7.5 year sterling affected by his proposed change to hours worked before swap rate applicable on 30 January 2012 was. [93891] claiming tax credits. [93963] 305W Written Answers8 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 306W

Mr Gauke [holding answer 6 February 2012]: I refer Mr Hague: While the Taliban has released a statement the right hon. Member to the answer given to the hon. expressing its willingness to participate in a political Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson) office in Qatar, the office has not yet been established. on 10 January 2012, Official Report, column 72W. As such there has been no contact with the office. Looking ahead we are working with the Afghan Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Chancellor of the Government to support their reconciliation efforts and Exchequer if he will publish an updated version of will respond to their requests for assistance. Table A2 in the June 2010 Budget taking account of changes to tax credits since that time. [94195] Bahrain: Politics and Government

Mr Gauke: There are currently no plans to produce Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State an updated table. for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what contact he has had with the authorities in Bahrain about recent developments in that country. [94148] PRIME MINISTER Mr Hague: I called the Bahraini Foreign Minister on India: European Fighter Aircraft 31 January to express our concern at the increased levels of violence on the street, ahead of the one-year anniversary Alison Seabeck: To ask the Prime Minister when he of the ’Day of Rage’ on 14 February. We urge all parties last discussed the bid by BAe Systems to sell the to show restraint and call on other leaders to do the Typhoon to India with the Indian Prime Minister. same. [93824] I also encouraged the authorities to continue implementing fully the Independent Commission of The Prime Minister: I refer the hon. Member to the Inquiry’s recommendations, as promised by His Majesty answer I gave her at Prime Minister’s Questions today. the King in November. This is crucial for the long-term stability of the kingdom. London Olympics 2012 Our ambassador in Manama has delivered the same Mr Thomas: To ask the Prime Minister how many messages during his recent calls with the King, Crown invitations to attend events at the London 2012 Olympics Prince, Prime Minister and Interior Minister. (a) he and (b) his senior officials have accepted; and if Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State he will make a statement. [93632] for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment The Prime Minister: Details of hospitality received his Department has made of the situation in Bahrain. by Ministers and special advisers and the most senior [94150] officials are published on a quarterly basis and will be available for July-September 2012 in due course. Mr Hague: We are concerned by the increased levels of violence on the street, ahead of the one-year anniversary of the ’Day of Rage’ on 14 February. We urge all parties to show restraint and call on other leaders to do the FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE same. The Bahraini Government have made steady and Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations welcome progress on implementing the Independent Commission of Inquiry’s recommendations to date. We Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State continue to offer UK expertise and assistance where for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment appropriate to help Bahrain on this path and urge swift he has made of the potential consequences of the delivery on promises made to reform. Taliban establishing a political office based in Qatar. [94172] We also urge the opposition to engage constructively and enter into a political dialogue with the authorities. Mr Hague: The UK is committed to supporting This is the right course for the Bahraini people. Afghan-led efforts to achieve an inclusive and sustainable political settlement. The Taliban’s statement at the start Departmental Data Protection of this year expressing a willingness to participate in a political office in Qatar is a welcome step. President Mr David Davis: To ask the Secretary of State for Karzai has also said he would support the establishment Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many cases of a political office. The Taliban’s statement suggests of (a) data loss and (b) breaches of confidentiality that they may have recognised the need to engage in a occurred in his Department in 2011. [94253] political process. However, this statement comes at an early stage in a reconciliation process and further steps Mr Lidington: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office are necessary for the Taliban to demonstrate their credibility. has a formal procedure for reporting, investigating and monitoring any incidents involving the loss or compromise Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State of personal data for which it is responsible. According for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether (a) to our records, in the calendar year ending December any official contact has taken place and (b) there are 2011 there were six incidents involving the loss of data any future plans for contact between representatives of and four involving a breach of confidentiality. Two the UK Government and the newly established incidents were considered significant enough to report political office of the Taliban in Qatar. [94177] to the Information Commissioner’s Office (ICO). 307W Written Answers8 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 308W

Departmental Recruitment Mr Hague: The Iranian economy is already weakened by government mismanagement. As a result of this, Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Iran has experienced high inflation and unemployment and Commonwealth Affairs how much his Department for some time. has spent on (a) recruitment services and (b) executive The aim of sanctions is to encourage Iran to negotiate search agencies in each month since May 2010; and if seriously and meaningfully on the nuclear issue. The he will make a statement. [93563] sanctions are intended to bring pressure to bear on the Mr Bellingham: The following table shows the amount regime as well as to target the nuclear programme. We spent by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) judge that their impact is increasing. The Iranian on (a) recruitment services and (b) executive search in Government can act to bring sanctions to an end. every month since May 2010. The FCO uses recruitment agencies to attract a wide Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State range of applicants to ensure its work force is as diverse for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what contact and highly skilled as possible. For specialist recruitment he has had with his counterpart in Turkey on matters campaigns, agencies are better placed to target applicants related to Iran in recent weeks. [94158] with the most relevant skills within that sector. A competitive tendering process is run to select an agency for external Mr Hague: I remain in regular contact with my recruitment campaigns. This has proven to be more Turkish counterpart on a range of Middle Eastern and cost-effective than in-house recruitment. North African issues, including Iran. Most recently, in a The figures cover recruitment for UK-based members conversation with the Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet of staff only—figures for recruitment undertaken by Davutoglu on 31 January, I urged Turkey not to increase overseas Posts advertising for local staff positions are its oil imports from Iran, on the grounds that this would not held centrally. All of the positions were approved undermine the impact of EU sanctions agreed on the for external recruitment as either business-critical or a 23 January. I also restated our position that we are front-line service, in accordance with the terms of the willing to support a resumption of talks between the Government-wide recruitment freeze. E3+3—the UK, US, France, Germany, Russia and China—and Iran over the nuclear issue, providing Iran Recruitment services drops its unreasonable preconditions for negotiations. Month (£) Executive search (£) Languages 2010 May 22,686.63 17,625.00 June 16,291.67 39,539.89 Mr David: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign July 7,039.00 17,652.13 and Commonwealth Affairs how many members of his August 17,566.24 0 Department’s staff speak (a) French, (b) Arabic, (c) Mandarin, (d) Hindi, (e) Urdu and (f) Spanish. September 0 0 [93469] October 23,577.75 0 November 18,800.00 17,390.00 December 7,813.75 0 Mr Bellingham: Based on our February 2012 central HR database records for our UK based staff work force of approximately 4,500, the proportions with language 2011 skills registered are: January 0 0 French: 59% February 0 0 Arabic: 5% March 12,215.96 0 April 10,692.50 0 Mandarin: 3% May 8,260.46 0 Hindi: 1% June 2,139.00 8,812.50 Urdu: 1% July 10,120.27 7,080.00 Spanish: 21%. August 5,634.00 0 I refer the hon. Member to the reply given by the September 8,312.00 0 Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth October 5,801.00 0 Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond November 6,337.20 0 Yorks) (Mr Hague), to the Shadow Secretary of State December 5,676.30 0 for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, the right hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire South) 2012 (Mr Alexander), on 11 July 2011, Official Report, column January 9,600.00 0 126W. February 4,646.80 0 These figures are higher than those given in that reply, reflecting recent investment in training and better Iran: Politics and Government central management information following a campaign in summer 2011 to ensure that UK based staff registered Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State details of their skills on our central HR database. for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment Nevertheless, these figures still may not comprehensively his Department has made of the (a) Iranian economy reflect the large number of staff who have not taken and (b) effect of the international sanctions regime on FCO examinations, or not registered their language that economy. [94157] skills on the database. 309W Written Answers8 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 310W

We are creating extra speaker slots in the Foreign and Mr Hague: There is no evidence to suggest that Commonwealth Office network in line with foreign North Korea’s nuclear proliferation activities have ceased policy priorities, including in the middle east, China as a result of changes to the regime in North Korea. We and Latin America. We will invest in additional full-time will continue to work with our international partners, language training for officers appointed to these positions including in the UN and the EU, to counter the risk where necessary. posed by nuclear proliferation in the region. The UK will also continue to urge North Korea to return to the Middle East: Oil 6 Party Talks on the denuclearisation of the Korean Peninsula. Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State Pakistan: Foreign Relations for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what analysis his Department has carried out on the potential effect on world trade of a closure of the Strait of Hormuz. Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what official [94155] contact he has had with the President of Pakistan in Mr Hague: Given that 35% of the world’s seaborne the last three months. [94170] oil shipments pass through the Strait of Hormuz, its Mr Hague: Over the past three months, I have not closure would undoubtedly have a major impact on had official contact with President of Pakistan. However, global oil prices, with far-reaching consequences for I have spoken several times to my opposite number, international trade and global growth. Foreign Minister Rabbani Khar and HMG Ministers We share with others our unwavering commitment to and officials have regular contact with all major political maintaining rights of passage under international law. leaders in Pakistan, including the president. For instance, As we have consistently made clear, any attempt by Iran during her visit to Pakistan in January 2012, the right to close the strait would be illegal and unsuccessful. hon. Baroness Warsi held official discussions with President Zardari, Prime Minister Gilani and Foreign Minister North Korea Rabbani Khar from the Pakistan People’s Party (PPP).

Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what official he has made of the potential regional consequences of contact he has had with leaders of opposition political recent changes in North Korea. [94154] parties in Pakistan in the last three months. [94171]

Mr Hague: The succession from Kim Jong II to Kim Mr Hague: Over the past three months, I have not Jong Un appears to be progressing smoothly.The situation had official contact with the leaders of opposition in North Korea, and in the region more generally, is political parties in Pakistan. However, HMG Ministers calm. Long-term stability on the Korean peninsula will and officials have regular contact with all major political only be achieved through the complete and verifiable leaders in Pakistan. For instance, during her visit to denuclearisation of North Korea. We believe that the Pakistan in January 2012 the right hon. Baroness Warsi Six Party Talks offer the best prospect for achieving and Lord Green held discussions with senior opposition this. Last month, the US, Japan and South Korea leaders from the Pakistan Muslim League (Nawaz) publicly indicated their willingness to return to negotiations (PML-N), the Muttahida Quami Movement (MQM) with North Korea. The UK calls on North Korea to and the Tehreek-e-Insaf (PTI). take all necessary steps for talks to resume. Pakistan: Politics and Government North Korea: Politics and Government Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State he has made of the potential consequences of upcoming for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what contact assembly elections in Pakistan; and if he will make a he has had with the Government of North Korea since statement. [94178] the death of Kim Jong-il. [94179] Mr Hague: The approaching elections are unprecedented Mr Hague: I have had no contact with the government in Pakistan’s history. I hope that Pakistan will see a of North Korea following the death of Kim Jong-il. civilian government run its full term and transfer power However, I made a public statement on 19 December to another democratically elected government. The elections urging the North Korean Government to engage with are a crucial step in Pakistan’s democratic history. We the international community and resume the Six Party want Pakistan to enjoy credible elections that respect Talks on denuclearisation of the Korean Peninsula. the constitution and help ensure stability. We believe that a strong, stable, constitutional democracy is in Nuclear Weapons: Proliferation Pakistan’s interests.

Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State Schools: Fees and Charges for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment he has made of the potential consequences Mr David: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign of recent changes to the regime in North Korea on and Commonwealth Affairs how much his Department efforts to stem nuclear proliferation in the region. has spent on school fees at each school for children of [94153] its staff in each of the last two years. [93468] 311W Written Answers8 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 312W

Mr Bellingham: The Foreign and Commonwealth safety and (c) individuals on the conviction of individuals Office (FCO) spent the following sums on children’s found to be guilty of (i) causing death by careless or education in the last two financial years: inconsiderate driving and (ii) causing death by dangerous driving in the cases of road traffic accidents in which a £ cyclist has been killed. [94126] UK schooling Overseas schooling Mr Blunt: Since May 2010 the Ministry of Justice has 2009-10 13,329,851 11,535,667 received a number of letters from individuals directly 2010-11 13,067,398 11,520,900 and via their Members of Parliament, on the subject of It is a condition of their employment that members sentencing for causing death by careless or inconsiderate of the diplomatic service must be prepared to serve driving and on causing death by dangerous driving, anywhere in the world at any time during their career, some of which relate to incidents involving cyclists. sometimes at very short notice. Those with children have a legal obligation as parents to ensure that their Dangerous Driving: Sentencing children receive a full-time education from the age of five years. Most parents prefer to take their children Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice with them abroad, but in some countries we do not what discussions he has had with the Secretary of State permit staff to take their children either for health or for Transport on the sentencing of car drivers found to security reasons. In others, local schools of an acceptable be responsible for road traffic accidents involving the standard are not available. It is longstanding practice (a) injury and (b) death of cyclists. [94122] that the FCO helps staff meet their potentially conflicting obligations by providing financial support for their Mr Blunt: There is regular communication between children’s education in the UK where staff choose this, Ministry of Justice and Department for Transport Ministers or are obliged to do so given local conditions in the about policy of mutual interest, although not specifically country to which they are posted. Continuity of education on the subject of road traffic incidents involving cyclists. is also an important factor, particularly at secondary Careless driving can destroy lives and have a devastating level. effect on victims and their families, which is why making The FCO refunds standard term fees up to a ceiling roads safer is our priority. Anyone who causes death by which is reviewed annually. The maximum amount the careless driving will face a prison sentence of up to five FCO will pay is determined by an independent survey years, and will automatically lose their licence if they conducted by ECA International, which is used by are found guilty. public and private sector employers whose staff work across the world. Various factors, including availability Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice of places (sometimes at short notice) and proximity of what assessment he has made of the (a) type and (b) other family members, influence which schools staff length of sentences awarded for offences of causing choose for their children. The current ceiling amounts death by careless driving; and if he will make a statement. per term are £8,577 for a senior boarder and £7,539 for [94124] a junior boarding pupil. Where staff opt to send their children to more expensive schools staff meet the difference Mr Blunt: The offence of causing death by careless in cost. driving was introduced by the Road Safety Act 2006. We cannot provide details of payments made in This legislation will be formally reviewed in due course connection with the schools, numbering several hundred, as part of the coalition Government’s commitment to attended by staff children in the UK and overseas. It is the post-legislative scrutiny process. The offence of causing our policy to avoid disclosures that could identify individual death by careless driving carries a maximum penalty of members of staff and their families. five years’ imprisonment together with a compulsory minimum of 12 months driving disqualification.

Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice JUSTICE what representations he has received from (a) organisations Animal Welfare: Crime representing cyclists, (b) organisations promoting road safety and (c) individuals on the (i) type and (ii) length Henry Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice of sentence awarded for offences of causing death by if he will give consideration to making so-called animal careless driving. [94125] crush images illegal by bringing forward proposals to Mr Blunt: Since May 2010 the Ministry of Justice has amend the Sexual Offences Act. [93767] received a number of letters from individuals directly Mr Blunt: No. The appropriate prosecution to be and via their Members of Parliament on the subject of brought in these circumstances is under animal welfare sentencing for causing death by careless or inconsiderate legislation, including the Animal Welfare Act 2006, driving. which provides various offences in respect of causing suffering to an animal. Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what assessment he has made of the consideration given Dangerous Driving: Convictions to previous driving offences in determining sentences for those convicted of (a) causing death by careless or Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice inconsiderate driving, (b) causing death by careless what representations he has received from (a) organisations driving when under the influence of drink or drugs and representing cyclists, (b) organisations promoting road (c) causing death by dangerous driving. [94127] 313W Written Answers8 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 314W

Mr Blunt: Sentencing decisions in individual cases The proportion of food (by value) purchased by the are a matter for the independent judiciary, having regard Ministry of Justice that was produced in the UK for to the facts of each offence. Section 143(2) of the each of the last five years for which figures are available Criminal Justice Act 2003 requires courts to treat a is as follows: previous conviction as an aggravating factor if it can reasonably do so, having regard to its relevance to the Percentage current offence and the time elapsed since conviction. 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11

Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice if MOJ 65.5 67 61 61 n/a (a) he and (b) Ministers in his Department will meet NOMS 37 49 50 50 44 members of the All Party Parliamentary Cycling Notes: 1. The Ministry of Justice (MOJ) covers MOJ HQ and Her Majesty’s Group to discuss sentencing guidelines for dangerous Courts and Tribunals Service (HMCTS) for contracted out food driving and other traffic offences. [94206] service provision. Figures for 2010- 11 are currently not available due to the contract being awarded in late 2010. Consolidated figures for Mr Blunt: Sentencing guidelines are issued by the 2010-11 and 2011-12 are due to be completed at the end of this Sentencing Council for England and Wales. The council financial year. 2. National Offender Management Services figures relate to the actual is independent from Government. As a result it would percentage of spend (value) on direct food costs for prisoner meal not be useful for me or for other Ministry of Justice requirements. Ministers to meet with the All Party Parliamentary Departmental Training Cycling Group to discuss the detail of sentencing guidelines. Debt Collection Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many away days his Department has held since May 2010; what the location was of each such Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice away day; how many staff attended; and what the cost what his Department’s definition of hardship is; and was of each such event. [93841] what recent discussions he has had with (a) ministerial colleagues and (b) local authorities to ensure that an Mr Djanogly: “Away days” are an integral part of agreed definition is in place in respect of enforcement business activity, often used as part of training, business under relevant statutes for (i) fines, (ii) sanctions, (iii) planning and development and for communicating penalties, (iv) overpayments and (v) debts. [86498] significant business changes to large numbers of staff in a timely and consistent fashion. Wherever possible, Mr Kenneth Clarke: There is no common definition such events occur at departmental facilities, which incur across Government of hardship and I have had no such no additional cost. However, due to the constraints on discussions regarding the enforcement of fines, sanctions, availability of suitable accommodation, on some occasions penalties, overpayments and debts. such meetings may take place off-site. Given the significant Nevertheless, the personal circumstances of an individual savings being delivered by the Department and the are taken into account in specific situations, in ensuring stringent financial controls in place, such discretionary that sentences are proportionate and in enforcement. expenditure is only permitted where there is a strong business case to support it, which has been approved at Defamation director level. Because such events are managed locally by business Robert Flello: To ask the Secretary of State for areas, for the period from May 2010 to date, the Ministry Justice what plans he has to strengthen the test of has no central records on the total number of away substantial harm in the Defamation Bill. [93921] days, their locations, the number of staff in attendance or the costs involved. To establish the number, location Mr Djanogly: We have taken account of the views and costs of away day events would require a Ministry-wide expressed in relation to the substantial harm test in survey of all its local business areas. A Ministry-wide responses to consultation on the draft Defamation Bill survey would therefore amount to a significant exercise and in the report of the Joint Committee on the draft and incur a disproportionate cost. Bill. We will set out our conclusions on this and other issues in the Government response to the report of the Joint Committee, which we aim to publish shortly. INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT Departmental Food Children: Vaccination

Neil Parish: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Michael Ellis: To ask the Secretary of State for what proportion of food purchased by his Department International Development how many children have was produced in the UK in each of the last five years. received vaccinations funded by his Department in (a) [93711] Africa and (b) globally since May 2010. [93361] Mr Djanogly: The Ministry of Justice (MOJ) procures Mr Duncan: The Department for International in accordance with EU legislation and is committed to Development supports vaccination programmes through the Government Buying Standards (GBS) for food. In a variety of channels including funding to the GAVI line with the coalition agreement the Department ensures Alliance, the Global Polio Eradication Initiative, core that food procured meets British standards of production funding to UNICEF and the World Health Organisation wherever this can be achieved without increasing overall and through the Department’s bilateral country cost. programmes. 315W Written Answers8 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 316W

Through our commitment to the GAVIAlliance alone, (2) what progress he has made on his strategy for UK funding has supported the vaccination of over 11 increasing the proportion of the EU budget which is million children since May 2010. Through Britain’s spent on (a) international co-operation and (b) Millennium increased support to Global Polio Eradication Initiative Development Goals rather than neighbourhood (GPEI) c.57 million children have been vaccinated globally programmes in negotiations on the multi-annual financial since May 2010, 28 million in Africa. framework. [93732] This is additional to our bilateral support which funds a wide range of activities in the health sector in Mr O’Brien: The European Commission has released many countries, including training of health workers, proposals for the European Union (EU) budget for the policy development, community mobilisation, campaign period 2014 to 2020. Member states are now beginning planning—all of which enable more children to receive detailed consideration of these. The UK welcomes the life saving vaccinations. proposed better focus of Development Cooperation on the poorest and most vulnerable countries with the EU Looking forward, our commitments will fund the relationship with emerging economies and other better vaccination of 45 million children over the next two off countries moving to a new partnership arrangement. years against polio (GPEI); vaccinate over 80 million children through GAVIover the next five years including Support to Europe’s neighbourhood remains a key against diarrhoea and pneumonia; and vaccinate 45 priority for the UK, not least as an essential element to million children against measles over the next four years our response to the Arab Spring. The UK welcomes the through the Measles Initiative, preventing 1.2 million introduction of rigorous conditions that will ensure measles cases and 24,000 measles deaths in each year of that the EU provides funding only in return for progress the programme. on political and economic reforms.

Departmental Data Protection Olympic Games 2012

Mr David Davis: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development how many cases of (a) International Development how many invitations to data loss and (b) breaches of confidentiality occurred attend events at the London 2012 Olympics (a) he, (b) in his Department in 2011. [94250] other Ministers in his Department and (c) senior officials in his Department have accepted; and if he will Mr Duncan: The Department for International make a statement. [93639] Development (DFID) had no cases where data with a security classification was lost during 2011. Mr Duncan: Details of hospitality received by Ministers, special advisers and the most senior officials at the DFID did not have any incidents resulting in breaches Department for International Development are published of confidentiality during 2011. on a quarterly basis and will be available for July-September 2012 in due course. Departmental Recruitment

Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development how much his Department CABINET OFFICE has spent on (a) recruitment services and (b) executive search agencies in each month since May 2010; and if Civil Service Pensions he will make a statement. [93560] 10. Mr Spellar: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Mr Duncan: The Department for International Office what recent discussions he has had on pensions Development (DFID) has not used any recruitment for senior civil servants; and if he will make a statement. services since May 2010 and has used only two executive [94030] search agencies since during this period. The Cabinet Office used the executive search agency Mr Maude: On 20 December I published the Heads Russell Reynolds in the recruitment of a new Permanent of Agreement on reforming the civil service pension Secretary and at a cost of £7,076.03 in March 2011. scheme. DFID also used the Executive Search Agency, Devex This followed months of intensive discussions that as part of a campaign to recruit new professional advisers have taken place at both ministerial and official level. on front line delivery work in the UK and in our offices Discussions with the civil service trade unions are continuing based overseas. Devex are a specialist international on the remaining details. development recruitment agency. The cost of the Devex search was £5,097.10 in September 2011. Voluntary Sector

EU Aid 11. Diana Johnson: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office what estimate he has made of the likely Pauline Latham: To ask the Secretary of State for change in the number of jobs in the voluntary sector in International Development (1) what steps he plans to the next three years. [94031] take to increase the proportion of the EU budget which is spent on Millennium Development Goal-focused Mr Hurd: Unfortunately the voluntary sector can not programmes rather than neighbourhood programmes; be immune from the cuts that the Government have [93731] been forced to undertake. 317W Written Answers8 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 318W

I meet with representatives from the sector regularly in state pension age for women which started in April 2010. The and fully appreciate the concern about job losses. We estimates for people aged 18 or under relate to people aged 16 to firmly believe that our policies will create sustainable, 18 inclusive. No data are available for people aged under 16. long-term opportunities for the sector, not least in The estimates are derived from the Labour Force Survey (LFS) public services, and we are working hard to make those and are not seasonally adjusted. As with any sample survey, opportunities available as quickly as possible. estimates from the LFS are subject to a margin of uncertainty. People in employment by age. Three months ending September, 2009 to Public Bodies Act 2011 2011. United Kingdom, not seasonally adjusted Thousand 12. Claire Perry: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet People at state Office what recent assessment he has made of the likely pension age1 and effects of implementation of the Public Bodies Act above People aged 16 to 18 2011. [94032] 2009 1,396 781 2010 1,463 718 Mr Maude: The Public Bodies Act gives Government 2011 *1,381 *648 the power to make significant reforms to public bodies, 1 Between April 2010 and November 2018 the state pension age for increasing accountability and efficiency. Our proposals women is gradually increasing from 60 to 65. From April 2010 to will abolish, merge and reform approximately 500 public April 2016 the state pension age for women is increasing by one bodies. month every two months. Guide to Quality: A three-year review programme will ensure the public The Coefficient of Variation (CV) indicates the quality of an estimate, bodies landscape continues to become more accountable, the smaller the CV value the higher the quality. The true value is likely streamlined and transparent. to lie within +/- twice the CV—for example, for an estimate of 200 with a CV of 5% we would expect the population total to be within the range 180-220. Mark Lancaster: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Key: Office what recent assessment he has made of the likely * 0 = CV<5%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered effects of implementation of the Public Bodies Act precise 2011. [94022] ** 5 = CV <10%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered reasonably precise *** 10 = CV <20%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered Mr Maude: The Public Bodies Act gives Government acceptable the power to make significant reforms to public bodies, **** CV ? 20%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered too increasing accountability and efficiency. Our proposals unreliable for practical purposes will abolish, merge and reform approximately 500 public CV = Coefficient of Variation bodies. Note: It should be noted that the above estimates exclude people in most A three-year review programme will ensure the public types of communal establishment (e.g. hotels, boarding houses, hostels bodies landscape continues to become more accountable, mobile home sites etc.). streamlined and transparent. Source: Labour Force Survey Consultancy

13. Chris Evans: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet EDUCATION Office how much his Department spent on consultancy Free School Meals in the last year for which figures are available. [94033] Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Maude: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I Education with reference to the Children’s Commissioner gave the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne Central for England report, A Child Rights Impact Assessment (Chi Onwurah) in oral questions today. of the Welfare Reform Bill, what assessment he has Employment made of the (a) costs, and (b) (i) short- and (ii) long-term effects on child poverty levels of implementation of the recommendation to extend free school meals Dr Thérèse Coffey: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet eligibility to all children in households receiving universal Office (1) how many pensioners were employed in (a) credit. [93211] 2009-10 and (b) 2010-11; [94290] (2) how many people aged 18 or under were Mr Gibb: The Department for Education is considering employed in (a) 2009-10 and (b) 2010-11. [94302] options for new eligibility criteria for free school meals once universal credit is introduced. These options will Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the take account of the Social Security Advisory Committee responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have (SSAC)’s independent review of passported benefits. asked the authority to reply. We will consult on free school meal eligibility proposals Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated February 2012: during 2012, in time for the introduction of universal credit from October 2013. As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Questions. The consultation will include analysis of the impact The available information is provided in the following table. of eligibility changes on children and families. Pensioners are assumed to be those people at, or above, the state pension age, which is the age at which people become eligible to Yasmin Qureshi: To ask the Secretary of State for receive the state pension. The estimates provided are for the latest Education when he plans to announce the eligibility quarter, July to September 2011, and the same quarter in the two rules for free school meals following introduction of preceding years. The figures take into account the gradual increase universal credit. [94088] 319W Written Answers8 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 320W

Mr Gibb: The Department for Education is considering Numbers and percentages of pupils1, 2 at the end of key stage 4 achieving A*-C grades in English, mathematics, geography, history, science3 and language4 options for new eligibility criteria for free school meals GCSEs5, 6 in high peak constituency7, East Midlands region8 and England9. once universal credit is introduced. These options will Years: 2006-10 Coverage: England take account of the Social Security Advisory Committee’s Numbers and independent review of passported benefits. We will Percentages of KS4 pupils consult on free school meal eligibility proposals during achieving A*-C 2012, and make an announcement in good time for the grade in 2005/06 2006/07 2007/08 2008/09 2009/10 introduction of universal credit from October 2013. High Peak 209 192 213 239 214 (Numbers) GCSE High Peak 17.9 15.6 18.0 212 20.0 (Percentages) East Midlands 9,797 9,574 9,625 9,217 9,372 Andrew Bingham: To ask the Secretary of State for (Numbers) Education (1) how many children have received A* to East Midlands 18.6 17.7 18.0 17.8 18.1 C grades in GCSE (a) mathematics, (b) English, (c) (Percentages) geography and (d) sciences in High Peak constituency England 115,273 114,742 116,404 114,985 117,204 (Numbers) in each of the last five years; [93212] England 19.5 19.2 19.5 19,9 20.3 (2) how many children in High Peak constituency (Percentages) were awarded A* to C grades in GCSE (a) history and Science3 (b) a language in each of the last five years. [93294] High Peak 579 593 686 732 689 (Numbers) Mr Gibb: The information requested can be found in High Peak 49.7 48.1 58.1 65.0 64.3 (Percentages) the following table. East Midlands 24,621 25,260 29,325 30,717 30,110 Numbers and percentages of pupils1, 2 at the end of key stage 4 achieving A*-C (Numbers) grades in English, mathematics, geography, history, science3 and language4 East Midlands 46.6 46.8 54.9 59.5 58.1 GCSEs5, 6 in high peak constituency7, East Midlands region8 and England9. (Percentages) Years: 2006-10 Coverage: England England 274,989 280,096 328,703 348,685 345,156 Numbers and (Numbers) Percentages of KS4 pupils England 46.4 46.8 55.2 60.5 59.9 achieving A*-C (Percentages) grade in 2005/06 2006/07 2007/08 2008/09 2009/10 Language4 High Peak 262 290 214 255 225 English (Numbers) High Peak 725 788 720 733 733 High Peak 22.5 23.5 18.1 22.6 21.0 (Numbers) (Percentages) High Peak 62.2 63.9 61.0 65.0 68.4 East Midlands 15,641 14,687 14,151 14,225 13,785 (Percentages) (Numbers) East Midlands 29,367 30,894 31,954 31,720 33,806 East Midlands 29.6 27.2 26.5 27.5 26.6 (Numbers) (Percentages) East Midlands 55.6 57.2 59.8 61.4 65.3 England 172,377 163,393 161,228 160,963 160,472 (Percentages) (Numbers) England 338,325 349,086 357,982 358,135 382,870 England 29.1 27.3 27.1 27.9 27.9 (Numbers) (Percentages) England 57.1 58.3 60.1 62.1 66.5 1 Figures do not include pupils recently arrived from overseas. (Percentages) 2 Figures include all maintained schools (including CTCs and academies). Maths 3 Pupils who achieved A*-C at GCSE in at least one of the following subjects: Physics, chemistry, biological sciences, single science, double science, High Peak 598 701 675 666 657 additional science. Core science and applied science for the years 2008/09 and (Numbers) 2009/10 and for physics, chemistry, biological sciences, single science, double High Peak 51.3 56.8 57.2 59.1 61.3 science for the years 2005/06 to 2007/08. (Percentages) 4 Pupils who achieved A*-C at GCSE in at least one of the following subjects: French, German, Spanish, Dutch, Italian, Modern Greek, Portuguese, Arabic, East Midlands 26,733 28,168 29,110 29,786 31,598 Bengali, Chinese, Gujarati, Japanese. Modern Hebrew, Panjabi, Polish, (Numbers) Russian. Turkish. Urdu, Persian, Danish and Hindi. East Midlands 50.6 52.2 54.5 57.7 61.0 5 Full GCSEs only have been included (Full GCSEs, double awards, accredited (Percentages) international certificates and their predecessor iGCSEs). Figures from 2006- England 307,025 322,941 334,905 338,133 360,233 2009 exclude iGCSEs, 2010 figures include accredited iGCSEs. (Numbers) 6 Including attempts and achievements by these pupils in previous academic years. England 51.8 53.9 56.2 58.7 62.5 7 Parliamentary constituency figures are based on the postcode of the school. (Percentages) 8 Regional figures are based on the region of the local authority maintaining Geography the school. 9 England figures are the sum of all local authority figures. High Peak 224 254 263 206 179 Source: (Numbers) National Pupil Database High Peak 19.2 20.6 22.3 18.3 16.7 (Percentages) East Midlands 8,686 8,875 8,284 7,825 7,744 (Numbers) East Midlands 16.5 16.4 15.5 15.1 15.0 Members: Correspondence (Percentages) England 103,173 103,592 101,350 97,759 98,098 (Numbers) Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for England 17.4 17.3 17.0 17.0 17.0 Education when he expects to reply to the letter of (Percentages) 21 December 2011 from the hon. Member for Birmingham, History Northfield on Cadbury Sixth Form College. [93344] 321W Written Answers8 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 322W

Mr Gibb [holding answer 6 February 2012]: The Mr Gibb: We will provide written guidance and video Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools, training materials to support teachers administering Lord Hill of Oareford, replied to the hon. Member’s and marking the phonics screening check. We will also letter of 21 December 2011, concerning Cadbury Sixth make information available to support schools in Form College’s funding position on 1 February 2012. interpreting the results.

Personal, Social, Health and Economic Education School Leaving: Basic Skills Mark Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what plans he has to introduce teaching about healthy relationships in schools. [93869] Robert Halfon: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what assessment his Department has made Mr Gibb: Sex and relationship education (SRE) is of the level of literacy and numeracy of (a) primary usually taught as part of personal, social, health and school leavers and (b) secondary school leavers from economic (PSHE) education in schools. Schools must Harlow constituency in each of the last 10 years. [93398] also have regard to SRE guidance produced by the Secretary of State for Education. Mr Gibb: The information requested for the years The Government are reviewing PSHE education in 2004/05 to 2010/11 for Key Stage 2 and 2005/06 to order to strengthen the quality of teaching about 2009/10 for Key Stage 4 is given in the following tables. relationships, positive parenting and sexual consent. Figures for earlier years can be provided only at The Government believe that all pupils should benefit disproportionate cost. from high-quality sex and relationships education at (a) Primary school leavers school; that schools have a clear role in reinforcing the Achievements at the expected level1 by pupils at the end of Key Stage 2 information that children receive from parents, and in in Harlow parliamentary constituency2, East of England3 and providing them with a safe and supportive environment England4. Years: 2005-115. Coverage: England6 in which to develop the knowledge they need to make Percentage wise and informed choices later in life. of KS2 pupils The PSHE review will help to determine the core achieving body of knowledge and awareness that pupils should be expected expected to acquire at school through PSHE education. level in 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 It will be up to schools, in consultation with parents, to English decide what more pupils need to know. Harlow 69 76 75 76 76 72 77 East of 80 80 80 81 80 79 80 England Primary Education: Academies England 79 79 80 81 80 81 82

Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Maths which primary schools are under consideration to be required to become academies; and whether any such Harlow 69 70 74 74 77 73 78 schools are in Lambeth. [92966] East of 75 76 77 78 78 79 79 England England 75 76 77 79 79 80 81 Mr Gibb [holding answer 6 February 2012]: We have 1 Includes pupils who achieved Level 4 or above. Level 4 is the been clear that we consider academy status to be the expected level of achievement for pupils at the end of Key Stage 2 best way to improve schools that are consistently 2 Parliamentary constituency figures are based on the postcode of underperforming. We do pupils an injustice if we do not the school. tackle entrenched underperformance where it exists. 3 Regional figures are based on the region of the local authority maintaining the school. The Secretary of State for Education, my right hon. 4 England figures are the sum of all local authority figures and Friend the Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove), match the England totals in the local authority tables of the announced in his speech to the National College of Statistical First Release: School Leadership on 16 June 2011, that we would start http://www.education.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s001047/ index.shtml work on turning around 200 of the most consistently These may differ to the England totals in the national tables in the underperforming primary schools. This would be achieved Statistical First Release. by finding new academy sponsors for them so that most 5 Data is final data for all years apart from 2011 which is based on can reopen from September 2012. We intend to explore amended data. academy options with three Lambeth primary schools. 6 Includes LA maintained schools and academies. Figures do not include pupils recently arrived from overseas. Source: National Pupil Database Reading: Primary Education East of England and England figures for 2007 to Mr Buckland: To ask the Secretary of State for Education 2011 are taken from table 23 in the Statistical First what support his Department plans to provide to teachers Release ″National Curriculum Assessments at Key Stage 2 to administer the proposals on phonics screening at age in England 2010/2011 (revised)″, published at: six; and whether any such support will include information http://www.education.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s001047/ on how to interpret the results. [93862] index.shtml 323W Written Answers8 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 324W

(b) Secondary school leavers In the Dartford constituency1, only Dartford grammar Percentages of pupils at the end of Key Stage 4 achieving A*-C grades school has delivered the post-16 IB to any significant 2 in English and mathematics GCSEs1, 2 in Harlow constituency3, East extent at any time in the last five academic years of England4 and England5. Years: 2006-106. Coverage: England7 (2007/08 to 2011-12). The figures in the following table Percentage of are an estimate of how much of the post-16 funding KS4 pupils allocated to Dartford grammar was used by the school achieving A*-C to support the IB. This is based on the school’s total grade in GCSE 2005/06 2006/07 2007/08 2008/09 2009/10 allocation split according to how many students they English recorded as taking the IB as part of their autumn Harlow 47.3 44.4 48.4 50.9 51.7 census return for the academic year in question. East of England 60.0 60.3 61.5 62.7 67.0 Dartford grammar school3 England 57.1 58.3 60.1 62.1 66.5 £ 2008/09 2009/10 2010/11 2011/12

Maths IB portion of 16 to 513,000 1,186,000 1,218,000 5— Harlow 39.3 41.6 47.2 48.7 53.9 19 programme 4 East of England 54.7 57.0 58.9 60.6 63.9 funding allocation 1 England 51.8 54.0 56.3 58.8 62.6 The Young People’s Learning Agency (YPLA) does not make 1 allocations to schools by constituency. Therefore, the data provided Full GCSEs only have been included (full GCSEs, double awards, are based on a proxy used to identify delivery in the Dartford accredited international certificates and their predecessor iGCSEs constituency. and AS-levels). Figures from 2006-2009 exclude iGCSEs, 2010 figures 2 The only other delivery noted on the census was for Leigh include accredited iGCSEs. 2 Technology Academy. This was in 2007/08 only and represented less Including attempts and achievements by these pupils in previous than 2% of their overall delivery—given the negligible amount of IB academic years. 3 provision delivered, this has been excluded from the figures Parliamentary constituency figures are based on the postcode of the provided. school. 3 4 Dartford grammar first started delivering the IB programme in the Regional figures are based on the region of the local authority 2008/09 academic year. As such, the data provided are from that maintaining the school. 5 point onwards. England figures are the sum of all local authority figures. 4 Portion of total allocation based on delivery element (excludes 6 Data is final data for all years. 7 entitlement, transitional protection, teacher’s pension and Includes LA maintained schools and academies. Figures do not Additional Learner Support funding). Rounded to nearest £000. include pupils recently arrived from overseas. 5 Not yet available. Source: National Pupil Database Science: GCSE Chris Skidmore: To ask the Secretary of State for Schools: English Baccalaureate Education (1) how many and what proportion of pupils (a) eligible and (b) not eligible for free school meals were entered for GCSEs in the three separate sciences in Gareth Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for each of the last three years; [89459] Education what funding was allocated to schools in Dartford constituency for the teaching of the International (2) how many and what proportion of all pupils Baccalaureate in each of the last five years. [93083] entered for a single science award GCSE were eligible for free school meals in each of the last 10 years. [89711] Mr Gibb: Institutions delivering 16 to 19 education and training receive a single allocation based primarily Mr Gibb: The information requested for the years on the total volume and various types (for example the 2008 to 2010 is presented in the following table, earlier post-16 International Baccalaureate (IB), A levels, years can be provided only at disproportionate cost. vocational qualifications etc.) of education delivered to Information on 2011 key stage 4 attainment by their students the previous academic year (i.e. on a characteristics will be published on 9 February in the lagged basis). We do not specify which qualifications publication “GCSE and Equivalent Attainment by Pupil institutions should use their funding for, as it is for the Characteristics in England, 2010/11”which will be available individual institution to use its funding allocation as it here: sees appropriate in delivering its curriculum during the http://www.education.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s001057/ academic year. index.shtml

Number and percentage of pupils entered for GCSEs in biological science, chemistry, physics and single science (core science) by eligibility for free school meals: Years 2008-10 (final)—Coverage: England Biological Sciences Chemistry Physics Core science FSM Not FSM FSM Not FSM FSM Not FSM FSM Not FSM eligible eligible eligible eligible eligible eligible eligible eligible

2008 Number 3,071 57,872 2,225 51,592 2,159 51,157 57,270 420,459 Percentage 95 4 96 4 96 12 88 2009 Number 3,869 69,795 3,095 64,730 3,034 64,709 54,824 387,127 Percentage 5 95 5 95 4 96 12 88 2010 Number 5,818 94,096 5,242 91,105 5,244 91,102 49,921 343,344 325W Written Answers8 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 326W

Number and percentage of pupils entered for GCSEs in biological science, chemistry, physics and single science (core science) by eligibility for free school meals: Years 2008-10 (final)—Coverage: England Biological Sciences Chemistry Physics Core science FSM Not FSM FSM Not FSM FSM Not FSM FSM Not FSM eligible eligible eligible eligible eligible eligible eligible eligible

Percentage 6 94 5 95 5 95 13 87 Notes: 1. Single science is taken to mean “Core Science” only and no other science award. 2. Figures cover pupils in maintained mainstream schools only. 3. Figures do not take into account discounting where qualification content may overlap.

Special Educational Needs: Hearing Impairment Mr Gibb [holding answer 6 February 2012]: The available information on the number of people aged Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for under 25 or 25 to 29 who entered the teaching profession Education how many and what proportion of children by gaining Qualified Teacher Status (QTS) through (a) in schools participating in the Year 1 phonics screening Postgraduate Certificate in Education (PGCE) courses, checked pilots were not checked because of (a) a (b) the Graduate Teacher Programme (GTP) and (c) recognised special educational need or disability and Teach First in the last five academic years for which (b) any other reason. [93388] data are available can be found in the following table: Number of people aged under 25 or 25 to 29 achieving QTS through Mr Gibb: The Department does not hold the information PGCE, GTP or Teach First routes by academic year. Coverage: in the exact format requested. In the pilot of the Year 1 England phonics screening check, teachers were asked to indicate PGCE GTP Teach First whether a pupil was disapplied from the check, but they Academic Under Under Under were not required to provide a reason for the disapplication. year 25 25-29 25 25-29 25 25-29 Of the 9,310 pupils at schools participating in the 2005/06 9,370 6,560 840 1,540 120 30 pilot, 191 (2.1%) were disapplied. There were also 321 2006/07 9,280 6,360 1,030 1,670 170 40 (3.4%) pupils who were absent. 2007/08 9,010 6,180 1,040 1,670 220 50 In the national implementation of the check in 2012, 2008/09 9,230 6,070 1,150 1,670 300 60 it will be a requirement for schools to explain to parents 2009/10 9,920 6,640 1,050 1,660 360 80 why any child has been disapplied from the check prior Notes: to the week in which it is administered. 1. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10. 2. Age is correct as of the start of the final year of study. Teachers: Disciplinary Proceedings 3. PGCE includes postgraduate courses undertaken at universities and other higher education institutions, school-centred initial teacher training and Open University but exclude employment-based routes. David Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for Source: Education how many teachers in each English region TDA Performance Profiles have been (a) disciplined and (b) dismissed for disciplinary offences related to inappropriate use of the internet in the last year. [94049] BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Mr Gibb: The information requested is not collected Agriculture: Subsidies centrally. Teachers: Sick Leave Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills if he will discuss with the Secretary Tracey Crouch: To ask the Secretary of State for of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Education when he plans to publish information on withholding payments under the (a) Single Payment teacher sickness absence in academic year 2010-11; and Scheme and (b) Rural Development Programme for if he will make a statement. [93920] England to (i) landowners who have not registered their land with the Land Registry and (ii) offshore trusts; and Mr Gibb: Teacher sickness absence figures for the if he will make a statement. [91406] academic year 2010/11 are expected to be published in April 2012 in the School Workforce in England, November Norman Lamb: Payments under the single payment 2011 Statistical First Release. The exact date will be scheme and rural development programme for England notified on the Department’s website at the following are a matter for the Secretary of State for Environment, link in March: Food and Rural Affairs, the right hon. Member for http://www.education.gov.uk/researchandstatistics Meriden (Mrs Spelman). However, I understand that the EU scheme rules do not give member states powers Teachers: Training to make payments under either the scheme or programme conditional on landowners registering their land with Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for the land registry and that payments under the scheme Education what estimate he has made of the number of and programme depend on the farmer having land at people aged between 21 and 25 who entered the their disposal, not on the nature of the ownership. For teaching profession through (a) PGCEs, (b) graduate this reason there are no plans for the Secretary of State teacher programmes and (c) Teach First in each of the for Business, Innovation and Skills, my right hon. Friend last five years. [93794] the Member for Twickenham (Vince Cable), and the 327W Written Answers8 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 328W

Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural evidence on the costs and benefits to all parties who Affairs to meet to discuss the issue raised by the hon. could be affected by the proposals, through public Member. consultation.

Banks: Third Sector Jim Dowd: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills whether he has any plans to Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for review the economic assessment of the proposals Business, Innovation and Skills what discussions he has contained in his Department’s consultation paper on had on the role of banks held in public ownership in the Hargreaves review has been carried out. [93887] achieving socially beneficial objectives. [92156] Norman Lamb: The initial impact assessments published Mr Hoban: I have been asked to reply on behalf of with the current consultation on copyright will be reviewed the Treasury Department. and revised in both the light of the ongoing Government research programme and further evidence of costs and Ministers and officials have meetings with a wide benefits collected from stakeholders during the consultation variety of organisations, overseas governments and process. ministries as part of the process of policy development and delivery.As was the case with previous Administrations, it is not the Government’s practice to provide details of Jim Dowd: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, all such meetings. Innovation and Skills if he will (a) publish and (b) place in the Library copies of the responses his Department has received to date to its consultation on Business: Carbon Emissions the Hargreaves review. [93889]

Dr Whitehead: To ask the Secretary of State for Norman Lamb: I confirm that, subject to resolution Business, Innovation and Skills (1) what estimate his of any specific requests for confidentiality, following Department has made of the number of small businesses the completion of the consultation the Government will that will cease trading as a result of the ending of the publish all formal responses in accordance with normal Carbon Emissions Reduction Target and Community practice. Energy Saving Programme schemes; [94191] (2) what assessment he has made of the number of job losses that will result from the ending of the Departmental Procurement Carbon Emissions Reduction Target and Community Energy Saving Programme schemes to insulate homes. Toby Perkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, [94192] Innovation and Skills how much his Department spent procuring products and services in 2010-11. [93870] Gregory Barker: I have been asked to reply on behalf of the Department of Energy and Climate Change. Norman Lamb: In 2010-11 the Department spent a The Carbon Emissions Reduction Target (CERT) total of £202,442,693 procuring goods and services. and Community Energy Saving Programme (CESP) This figure includes the amount spent on accommodation will transition to the new Green Deal and Energy and facilities management. Company Obligation (ECO) at the end of 2012. We are considering responses to the recent public consultation on Green Deal and ECO, and detailed consideration of Higher Education: Access the impact this transition has on the industry, including on small businesses, will be included in the final version of the impact assessment accompanying the Government’s Dr Francis: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, response. We currently estimate that Government Innovation and Skills what recent discussions he has programmes to promote energy efficiency will support had with Ministers in the devolved administrations on around 65,000 insulation sector jobs in 2015, which policy issues relating to the widening of access to higher represents an increase from the present total of 27,000 education; and if he will make a statement. [93175] jobs. Mr Willetts: Neither I nor the Secretary of State for Copyright Business, Innovation and Skills, my right hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham (Vince Cable), have had recent discussions with Ministers of the Devolved Jim Dowd: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Administrations on policy issues relating to widening Innovation and Skills whether his Department has access to higher education. quantified the monetary (a) costs and (b) benefits to the principal affected groups of implementing options I am always willing to meet with Ministers of the 1 to 5 in his Department’s consultation paper on the Devolved Administrations to discuss issues of higher Hargreaves review. [93886] education policy. Officials of the Department for Business, innovation Norman Lamb: The initial impact assessments published and Skills continue to make regular contact with officials with the current consultation on copyright were developed of the Devolved Administrations about the development on the basis of available evidence from a range of of higher education reforms announced in the 2011 sources, including the submissions made to the Hargreaves White Paper, including on widening access to higher review. The Government are now seeking more detailed education. 329W Written Answers8 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 330W

Higher Education: Admissions Company (SLC) and the four UK Government Administrations, the appointment and remuneration Dr Francis: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, package for SLC’s chief executive was approved by Innovation and Skills what recent discussions he has Ministers in the Department for Business, Innovation had with (a) the Higher Education Funding Council and Skills following consultation with and agreement for England and (b) Universities UK on steps to encourage by Scottish Ministers in December 2010. adult students into higher education; and if he will Student Loans Company: Public Appointments make a statement. [93176] Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Willetts: I and the Secretary of State for Business, Business, Innovation and Skills whether the appointment Innovation and Skills, my right hon. Friend the Member of the chief executive of the Student Loans Company for Twickenham (Vince Cable), meet regularly with the will be a joint appointment between HM Government Higher Education Funding Council (HEFCE) and and the Scottish Government. [94307] Universities UK (UUK) to discuss a range of issues surrounding higher education including widening Mr Willetts: The chief executive of the Student Loans participation and fair access. Company is not a ministerial appointment. The Student In the guidance from the Department for Business, Loans Company’s Board is responsible for appointing Innovation and Skills (BIS) to the Office of Fair Access the chief executive subject to agreement by the Department (OFFA) issued in February 2011 the Government said of Business, Innovation and Skills and Scottish Ministers it wanted to support mature students, that it would like and following consultation with the devolved institutions to consider such students within their overall Administrations in Wales and Northern Ireland. approach to access, and would like OFFA to take Students: Debts account of their efforts in considering their access agreements. For the first time, we are making loans available to part time students to meet tuition costs. Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he has Land Registry made of the level of student debt of adult learners who progress to higher education (a) after a further education Robert Flello: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, student loan funded access to higher education course Innovation and Skills when the Land Registry will be and (b) immediately after secondary education. [93884] moved from the Ministry of Justice to his Department; Mr Hayes: Further education loans will be introduced and what the cost will be. [93924] for the 2013/14 academic year. We estimate, based on Norman Lamb: The Land Registry transferred to this figures for the average cost per enrolment of an Access Department on 18 July 2011 in response to my right to Higher Education course in 2010/11 that the average hon. Friend the Prime Minister’s announcement that, loan for such a course undertaken by someone aged 24 in order to enable the development of a proposition for or above in 2013/14 will be around £2,500. For those the establishment of a Public Data Corporation, participants who are under 24 such courses will remain responsibility for HM Land Registry, the Meteorological grant funded. Office, and Ordnance Survey, would transfer to the For all those who begin a three-year degree course in Department for Business, Innovation and Skills from 2014/15 and take up both a fee and maintenance loan the Secretaries of State for Justice, Defence, and every year, the additional amount borrowed could on Communities and Local Government respectively. average be around £38,000. There were no material external costs involved in the Students: Finance change. Estimates of allocated internal time suggest an internal time cost of circa £200,000, albeit these costs Dr Thérèse Coffey: To ask the Secretary of State for are of course fixed in nature and hence no material Business, Innovation and Skills what recent discussions incremental costs were incurred. he has had with the Engineering and Physical Sciences Research Council on future funding of post-graduate Student Loans Company: Pay research fellowships. [93157]

Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Willetts: There has not been any recent discussion Business, Innovation and Skills what discussions he has between the Department for Business, Innovation and had with Ministers in the Scottish Government on the Skills (BIS) and the Engineering and Physical Sciences terms and conditions offered to the chief executive of Research Council (EPSRC) on postgraduate research the Student Loans Company and the tax arrangements fellowships. EPSRC does not fund postgraduate fellowships, associated with his pay package. [94308] but it does provide support for PhD studentships across the Engineering and Physical Sciences as well as Mr Willetts: In line with arrangements set out in the postdoctoral fellowships in some research areas (e.g. Framework Document between the Student Loans Mathematical Sciences and Theoretical Physics).

ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 8 February 2012

Col. No. Col. No. CABINET OFFICE...... 285 CABINET OFFICE—continued Big Society ...... 286 Social Action Fund...... 286 Big Society ...... 289 Topical Questions ...... 293 Consultancy...... 290 Efficiency Savings ...... 288 IT Procurement...... 285 PRIME MINISTER ...... 294 Public Procurement...... 291 Engagements...... 294 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Wednesday 8 February 2012

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 15WS INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 23WS Freedom of Information ...... 15WS Supplementary Estimates 2011-12...... 23WS

DEFENCE...... 20WS SCOTLAND...... 26WS Armed Forces Pension Scheme ...... 20WS Supplementary Estimates 2011-12...... 26WS TRANSPORT ...... 26WS ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 20WS Search and Rescue Helicopters ...... 26WS EU Energy Council...... 20WS TREASURY ...... 16WS ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Parliamentary Questions...... 16WS AFFAIRS...... 21WS Terrorist Asset Freezing ...... 16WS Agriculture and Fisheries Council...... 21WS Terrorist Asset Freezing ...... 16WS

HOME DEPARTMENT...... 22WS WALES...... 27WS Firearms ...... 22WS Supplementary Estimates 2011-12...... 27WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

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Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS...... 326W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 298W Agriculture: Subsidies ...... 326W Departmental Recruitment ...... 298W Banks: Third Sector ...... 327W Tourism: Cumbria...... 299W Business: Carbon Emissions...... 327W Copyright...... 327W Departmental Procurement...... 328W DEFENCE...... 286W Higher Education: Access ...... 328W Afghanistan: Entertainers ...... 286W Higher Education: Admissions ...... 329W Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations ...... 286W Land Registry ...... 329W Air Force: Rescue Services ...... 287W Student Loans Company: Pay...... 329W Armed Forces: Cadets...... 287W Student Loans Company: Public Appointments .... 330W Armed Forces: Vehicles...... 287W Students: Debts...... 330W Armoured Fighting Vehicles ...... 287W Students: Finance ...... 330W Defence Equipment ...... 288W Defence Equipment: Sales...... 288W CABINET OFFICE...... 316W Defence: Expenditure...... 289W Civil Service Pensions ...... 316W Departmental Training ...... 290W Consultancy...... 317W Departmental Travel ...... 290W Employment ...... 317W Guided Weapons: Scotland ...... 290W Public Bodies Act 2011 ...... 317W Military Aircraft ...... 290W Voluntary Sector ...... 316W Military Aircraft: Deployment...... 292W Military Aircraft: Repairs and Maintenance ...... 292W Military Bases: Northern Ireland...... 292W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 262W Puma Helicopters...... 293W Council Tax ...... 262W RAF Northolt...... 293W Departmental Redundancy Pay ...... 264W Third Sector...... 293W Departmental Travel ...... 264W Trident Submarines...... 294W Housing Benefit ...... 265W Type 45 Destroyers...... 294W Local Government Finance Bill ...... 266W USA: Military Alliances...... 294W Col. No. Col. No. EDUCATION...... 318W HEALTH—continued Free School Meals...... 318W Social Services...... 262W GCSE ...... 319W UNUM...... 262W Members: Correspondence ...... 320W Personal, Social, Health and Economic HOME DEPARTMENT...... 273W Education ...... 321W Antisocial Behaviour...... 273W Primary Education: Academies...... 321W Civil Disorder: Lancashire Constabulary ...... 274W Reading: Primary Education...... 321W Departmental Procurement...... 274W School Leaving: Basic Skills...... 322W Mobile Phones ...... 275W Schools: English Baccalaureate...... 323W National Policing Improvement Agency...... 275W Science: GCSE ...... 324W Offenders: Deportation...... 275W Special Educational Needs: Hearing Impairment .. 325W Organised Crime: Greater London...... 275W Teachers: Disciplinary Proceedings ...... 325W Organised Crime: West Midlands...... 276W Teachers: Sick Leave ...... 325W Police ...... 276W Teachers: Training...... 325W Police: Accountability ...... 276W Police and Crime Commissioners...... 276W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 266W Police: Expenditure ...... 277W Climate Change Convention: Canada...... 266W Police: Information and Communications Climate Change: International Cooperation ...... 266W Technology ...... 277W Combined Heat and Power ...... 267W Police: Pay...... 277W Energy: Billing ...... 267W Safer Neighbourhood Teams ...... 278W Energy: Business ...... 268W West Midlands Police...... 278W Energy: Manpower ...... 268W Energy: Meters...... 268W INDEPENDENT PARLIAMENTARY Energy: Prices ...... 269W STANDARDS AUTHORITY COMMITTEE ...... 300W Fuel Poverty...... 269W Public Expenditure...... 300W Green Deal Scheme...... 269W Homesun Holdings ...... 270W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 314W London Olympics 2012 ...... 270W Children: Vaccination ...... 314W Marine Energy Park...... 270W Departmental Data Protection...... 315W Photovoltaics ...... 271W Departmental Recruitment ...... 315W Renewable Energy: Heating ...... 271W EU Aid ...... 315W Renewable Energy: Manpower...... 271W Olympic Games 2012 ...... 316W Warm Front Scheme ...... 272W Wind Power: Expenditure ...... 273W JUSTICE...... 311W Animal Welfare: Crime ...... 311W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 305W Dangerous Driving: Convictions...... 311W Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations ...... 305W Dangerous Driving: Sentencing ...... 312W Bahrain: Politics and Government ...... 306W Debt Collection...... 313W Departmental Data Protection...... 306W Defamation...... 313W Departmental Recruitment ...... 307W Departmental Food...... 313W Iran: Politics and Government ...... 307W Departmental Training ...... 314W Languages...... 308W Middle East: Oil...... 309W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 297W North Korea ...... 309W Bill of Rights ...... 297W North Korea: Politics and Government...... 309W Departmental Food...... 297W Nuclear Weapons: Proliferation ...... 309W Departmental Training ...... 298W Pakistan: Foreign Relations ...... 310W Welfare State: Reform ...... 298W Pakistan: Politics and Government ...... 310W Schools: Fees and Charges ...... 310W PRIME MINISTER ...... 305W India: European Fighter Aircraft ...... 305W HEALTH...... 253W London Olympics 2012 ...... 305W Departmental Data Protection...... 253W Departmental Food...... 253W TRANSPORT ...... 294W Departmental Training ...... 253W Departmental Billing ...... 294W Diabetes ...... 254W Departmental Travel ...... 295W Drugs: Counterfeit Manufacturing ...... 254W Highways Agency: Planning Permission ...... 295W Gynaecology: Medical Treatments...... 255W M1: Repairs and Maintenance...... 296W Health Services: Greater London...... 255W M1: Road Traffic Offences ...... 296W Hinchingbrooke Hospital: Food ...... 255W Network Rail: Compensation...... 296W Hospitals: Greater London ...... 256W Transport: Expenditure...... 297W In Vitro Fertilisation ...... 257W Influenza: Vaccination ...... 258W TREASURY ...... 300W Mental Illness: Drugs...... 258W Banks: Regulation...... 300W NHS...... 258W Banks: Tax Yields ...... 300W NHS: Private Sector...... 259W Business: Loans...... 301W NHS: Standards...... 259W Canal and River Trust: Finance ...... 301W NHS: Training ...... 259W Climate Change Levy: Metals ...... 301W Nutrition...... 260W Corporation Tax ...... 301W Obesity: Leicestershire ...... 260W Corporation Tax: Tax Yields...... 301W Radiotherapy: Northern Ireland ...... 261W Counterfeit Manufacturing...... 303W Col. No. Col. No. TREASURY—continued WORK AND PENSIONS—continued Departmental Billing ...... 303W Jobcentre Plus ...... 282W Loans: Republic of Ireland ...... 303W Jobcentre Plus: Barking and Dagenham...... 283W Non-Domestic Rates: Tourism...... 304W Pension Funds ...... 283W Pension Funds ...... 304W Pensions...... 284W Welfare Tax Credits...... 304W Social Security Benefits...... 284W Social Security Benefits: Fraud ...... 284W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 278W Social Security Benefits: National Insurance Departmental Billing ...... 278W Contributions ...... 285W Disability Living Allowance...... 279W Universal Credit...... 285W Employment and Support Allowance: Preston...... 280W Universal Credit: Lancashire...... 285W Housing Benefit ...... 279W Work Programme: High Peak ...... 285W Housing Benefit: Bedford...... 281W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. 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CONTENTS

Wednesday 8 February 2012

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 285] [see index inside back page] Minister for the Cabinet Office Prime Minister

Health and Safety (Amendment) [Col. 307] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Luciana Berger)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Police [Col. 310] Motion—(Nick Herbert)—pm a Division, agreed to

Local Government Finance [Col. 361] Motions—(Grant Shapps)—on a Division, agreed to

Petition [Col. 412]

Stereotactic Body Radiotherapy [Col. 413] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Local Government [Col. 423] Broadcasting [Col. 442] Electronic Communications [Col. 445] Motions, on deferred Divisions, agreed to

Westminster Hall British Exports [Col. 73WH] Broadcasting of Court Proceedings [Col. 97WH] Rural Schools [Col. 104WH] Haemophilia [Col. 126WH] Human Trafficking [Col. 134WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 15WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 253W] [see index inside back page]