Vol. 723 Tuesday No. 91 11 January 2011

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDER OF BUSINESS

Introductions: Lord True, Baroness Jolly and Lord Risby Questions Energy: Electricity Air Passenger Duty EU: Hungarian Presidency Health: Influenza Public Bodies Bill [HL] Committee (6th Day) Banking: Bonuses Statement Public Bodies Bill [HL] Committee (6th Day) (continued) UK Border Agency: Visas and Passports Question for Short Debate Public Bodies Bill [HL] Committee (6th Day) (continued)

Grand Committee Revised Draft Overarching National Policy Statement for Energy (EN–1) Revised Draft National Policy Statement for Fossil Fuel Electricity Generating Infrastructure (EN–2) Revised Draft National Policy Statement for Renewable Energy Infrastructure (EN–3) Revised Draft National Policy Statement for Gas Supply Infrastructure and Gas and Oil Pipelines (EN–4) Revised Draft National Policy Statement for Electricity Networks Infrastructure (EN–5) Debated

Written Statements Written Answers For column numbers see back page

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© Parliamentary Copyright House of Lords 2011, this publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ 1285 Introductions[11 JANUARY 2011] Energy: Electricity 1286

Lord Berkeley: I am grateful to the Minister for that House of Lords reply, but is he aware that in the solution that he has just set out, it will require all the operators—the Tuesday, 11 January 2011. landlords of these private networks—to upgrade their supplies to grid standards at the cost of many millions? 2.15 pm This applies to railways, airports, ports, sports centres— anywhere where there is subcontracted electricity. Does Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Gloucester. he agree that the Government should look at an alternative, which would be for the landlord to get competitive quotes, and so avoid this enormous cost Introduction: Lord True on British business?

2.22 pm Lord Marland: My Lords, this is a complicated issue, and we have been in consultation with all the Nicholas Edward True, Esquire, CBE, having been created ports, airports and railways. That has been an extensive Baron True, of East Sheen in the County of Surrey, was consultation. If the noble Lord wishes to meet with introduced and took the oath, supported by Lord Strathclyde officials for further explanation and briefing on the and Lord Howard of Rising, and signed an undertaking consultation, I will, as always, make my officials available. to abide by the Code of Conduct. I agree with him: it would be perfectly acceptable, if private network customers are satisfied with their private network suppliers, to go out to tender to obtain cheaper Introduction: Baroness Jolly electricity. The fundamental point, however, is that in these difficult times, it is important that the customer 2.27 pm has the cheapest and fairest electricity supply that is available. Judith Anne Jolly, having been created Baroness Jolly, of Congdon’s Shop in the County of Cornwall, was Baroness Parminter: My Lords, it is welcome that introduced and took the oath, supported by Lord Tyler the proposed changes will help people switch suppliers and Lord Teverson, and signed an undertaking to abide and potentially save money on their energy bills. Does by the Code of Conduct. my noble friend agree that more market competition and greater transparency in wholesale costs and retail prices would assure consumers that they were paying a Introduction: Lord Risby fair price for their energy?

2.33 pm Lord Marland: I totally agree with the noble Baroness, but in fairness, it is the role of Ofgem to ensure that electricity prices remain competitive. We strongly Richard John Grenville Spring, Esquire, having been encourage Ofgem to be transparent and to challenge created Baron Risby, of Haverhill in the County of the fairness of prices. As noble Lords know, we are Suffolk, was introduced and took the oath, supported by reviewing the role of Ofgem and ensuring that it is Lord Astor of Hever and Lord Mayhew of Twysden, carrying out those methods so that we end up with a and signed an undertaking to abide by the Code of competitive electricity market in these very difficult Conduct. times.

Energy: Electricity Lord Hughes of Woodside: My Lords, at Question Question Time after Question Time we keep hearing Ministers speak about competition and reducing prices. The facts are that prices still keep going up. Electricity has gone 2.39 pm up by 9 per cent. How can 9 per cent on people’s bills Asked by Lord Berkeley be justified?

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what will be Lord Marland: The noble Lord is completely right the financial impact on consumers of the changes that electricity bills are going up and have been going proposed to the United Kingdom’s private electricity up. This is very regrettable, but let us look at the facts. networks. In the past five years, oil prices have gone up by 60 per cent and gas prices by nearly 60 per cent. Electricity The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department prices have also gone up by nearly that much in that of Energy and Climate Change (Lord Marland): My time. It is incumbent on us to get a competitive situation Lords, the provision of third-party access to unlicensed in the market and I can assure your Lordships that this networks will enable customers of those networks to Government are trying everything that they can to take advantage of the competitive energy market by achieve that. having the right to choose their energy supplier. As such, where alternative suppliers can offer a more Lord Trefgarne: My Lords, is it not the case that competitive price than the incumbent supplier, customers owners of wind farms are to be paid a so-called will be able to make savings on their energy costs. facilitation fee, apparently to contribute to the costs of 1287 Energy: Electricity[LORDS] Air Passenger Duty 1288

[LORD TREFGARNE] Lord Marland: I do enjoy these questions, my Lords. their facilities, even when there is no wind and they are I have never been the smartest tool in the box— not producing any electricity? What sort of a contribution does that make to these competitive policies? Noble Lords: No!

Lord Marland: With all due respect, the noble Lord Lord Marland: Thank you. I appreciate the response is slightly wrong in his sweeping judgment that there is from the Opposition Benches—I fished for that no wind activity from wind farms. There is of course compliment beautifully. The answer is no. [Laughter.] wind; we live in a windy country. Wind farms are seen to be an appropriate way for this country to generate electricity. However, his broader point is very well Air Passenger Duty made: in order to achieve by 2050 probably twice the Question amount of electricity that we need now, we have to get on with obtaining it from a portfolio of ventures. That 2.46 pm means new nuclear, wind farms, renewables such as anaerobic digesters and biomass, et cetera. We have to Asked by Lord Borrie have a portfolio of ventures and this Government have To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their set about achieving that. assessment of the potential effects on United Kingdom competitiveness of the announcement by the Baroness Smith of Basildon: My Lords, with the Chancellor of the Exchequer in June 2010 forecasting announcement today of yet another energy company that air passenger duty revenue would increase increasing its charges, I know that the Minister from the current rate of £1.9 billion to £3.8 billion understands how worried people are about paying per annum by 2015–16. their bills, particularly as we have seen a spate of very cold weather. The noble Lord will be aware that his The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord own department has forecast that the shift towards Sassoon): My Lords, the Office for Budget Responsibility’s greener energy and a greener economy will increase November forecast estimates air passenger duty revenue the cost of electricity by 33 per cent and the cost of gas at £3.6 billion in 2015-16. The estimate reflects forecast by 18 per cent. We welcome and support the move to growth in passenger numbers and the November 2010 greener energy, but what action will the Government rate increases as announced by the previous Government. take to ensure that the energy companies do not It also assumes that duty rates are uprated by inflation continue to make excessive profits while the costs fall each year—a standard forecasting convention. However, on the consumers? at the Budget, the Government committed to exploring changes to aviation tax and to consult on any major Lord Marland: The noble Baroness raises a very changes. We are considering evidence from stakeholders, apposite question. As she says, E.ON has today raised including on the impact on UK competitiveness. its energy prices, which is absolutely regrettable in the current circumstances. We are very concerned about Lord Borrie: I thank the noble Lord for his answer. the margin that electricity companies are making in However, it does not deal with the great problem that the current environment. As I said earlier, ensuring so many countries on the continent of Europe either competitiveness is the role of Ofgem but let us make do not have any duty at all or have a much lower duty no mistake: we have to invest £110 billion in the next than in Britain. Therefore, the competitiveness of our 10 years to upgrade our very redundant network. airlines, airports and tourist industry is at a disadvantage. Therefore, I am afraid that electricity prices are going Apropos the last Question and Answer, this is surely to go up because we have done nothing for a very long one matter on which the Government have a measure period. of control. It is their duty that has been imposed and is suggested to be higher. I am sure that the Minister Lord Geddes: Why are those who produce their own will agree with me that the UK tourist industry must electricity—from photovoltaic panels, for instance—paid be very disappointed with the Answer that has been by the grid only a fraction of what they have to pay to given, especially when tourists from countries such as the grid if they wish to draw electricity from them? India and China—growth economies—are wanted yet are being turned away by this unduly high duty. Lord Marland: The whole idea of incentivising Lord Sassoon: My Lords, I do not believe that the people to produce electricity is for the Government to tourist industry will be either surprised or disappointed pump-prime alternative electricity uses. Photovoltaic because I have merely restated that we are consulting energy is developing into a maturing market. We are a wide range of stakeholders and listening to views of reviewing whether it is mature enough and whether the tourist organisations, among others. On UK some of the benefits that that market has so far competitiveness, it is important to see the APD in the received should be reviewed. wider context. For example, we do not levy the APD on transit or transfer passengers. As the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours: My Lords, will the Minister Lord Borrie, points out, other countries are introducing ask his officials to reopen the file on rising block similar taxes—Germany introduced a similar tax on tariffs and the benefits that that would bring to consumers? 1 January. In the wider context of competitiveness, 1289 Air Passenger Duty[11 JANUARY 2011] EU: Hungarian Presidency 1290 the Government are reducing corporation tax very Heads of Government of the dependent territories in significantly from 28 to 24 per cent over four years the Caribbean, so I have heard first hand their strength from April 2011. If we talk about competitiveness, we of feeling in respect of this issue. However, under the should look at it in a much wider context. Chicago convention we have to have an objective basis for distinguishing between one country and another. Lord Palmer: My Lords, can the Minister explain why those in private jets are not subject to APD? This Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke: My Lords, I declare might be a very good point for his consultation paper. an interest as a board member of VisitBritain. I take this opportunity to congratulate the Prime Minister Lord Sassoon: My Lords, I am listening hard to on the very helpful speech that he made last week in points that are raised this afternoon. Although I cannot which he recognised tourism as an engine of growth in tell noble Lords where the consultation will get to, I the economy. However, will the Minister prevail on his am very happy to listen to points, including that made officials to set up a monitoring committee with the by the noble Lord. Department for Culture, Media and Sport as APD will prove a significant challenge to the tourism industry Lord Rotherwick: Is the Minister not concerned at a time of huge opportunity, with everything from a that by raising the airport passenger duty in the way royal wedding to the Olympics? Mitigating measures that is proposed he will damage the Government’s might well be introduced but only if there is a sufficiently objective of making this country one of the major adequate early warning system. tourist destinations? If a family of four from China travel to this country from their home, they will now Lord Sassoon: I absolutely hear the point and I am pay £300, even though they are travelling economy. sure that my right honourable friend the Prime Minister will be pleased that his commitment to the tourist Lord Sassoon: My Lords, it is certainly not the industry has been noted. I say again that the previous Government’s intention to damage the competitiveness Government increased the rates to where they are of any sector of the economy, least of all the tourist now, with the burden falling on tourists and all other sector. I should remind noble Lords that the duty passengers, but we are looking at the whole construct. increase that came in on 1 November was announced by the previous Government and is something we are looking at. All these factors will be considered but this EU: Hungarian Presidency is not an easy matter; the previous Government reviewed Question the system at least once since its introduction. 2.54 pm Lord Clinton-Davis: I declare an interest as the president of BALPA. How does this proposed duty Asked by Lord Dykes improve the environment? I do not think that it will at To ask Her Majesty’s Government what European all, but I want to hear the Minister’s response. Does Union policy priorities they will seek to promote not this duty impose a serious and further blow to the during the Hungarian presidency from January to prospects of our beleaguered airlines, so why insist on June 2011. this pernicious duty?

Lord Sassoon: My Lords, the Government have not The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth proposed anything yet. The coalition agreement talks Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): During the Hungarian about a change from APD to a per plane basis. Clearly, presidency, the Government will urge the EU to prioritise different constructions of the duty have different effects its support of growth and jobs, including specific on usage of aircraft and on the environment. However, actions to increase trade and competitiveness and to as I say, the Government have not proposed anything assist the transition to a greener, low-carbon, high-growth yet. We are in listening mode. The effect on the airlines, European economy and a common European Union environmental effects and competitiveness are all issues energy market. We are also seeking progress on certain that must be considered. international dossiers, including deepening the EU’s relations with strategic partners. Finally, we will focus on ensuring that the EU delivers better value for Lord Newby: My Lords, is the Minister aware that money. the APD is seen to be particularly unfair on the Caribbean? Will he ensure that as part of the review which the Government are undertaking, particular Lord Dykes: I thank the Minister for that Answer. attention is given to the effect of the APD on the Does the Minister also agree that the beginning of the Caribbean, not just on the tourist industry there, six-month presidency is a very important moment for which is increasingly important as a proportion of its Hungary? Is he satisfied that as a result of recent economic activity, but on the Caribbean diaspora who representations, both internally and externally, Prime live in the UK? Minister Viktor Orbán will recast the new press law in an appropriate way? Lord Sassoon: I am grateful to my noble friend for drawing attention to the Caribbean. The Caribbean Lord Howell of Guildford: My noble friend is quite Tourism Organisation has produced a very helpful right to raise this issue, which has given rise to a report as a contribution to the debate. I have met the certain worry. The appropriate bodies, which include 1291 EU: Hungarian Presidency[LORDS] EU: Hungarian Presidency 1292

[LORD HOWELL OF GUILDFORD] race equality, so we would not be in favour of further the European Commission and the Organisation for legislation, but very detailed practical co-operation to Security and Co-operation in Europe, are reviewing meet this particular minority problem is certainly very the proposed legislation to check whether it complies much at the top of the agenda. with EU law and international norms. We look forward to hearing their findings. We place great importance Baroness Falkner of Margravine: Does my noble on the freedom and independence of the media, obviously, friend agree that while Hungary’s internal problems and we hope that the Hungarian Government will and more authoritarian stance are indeed to be regretted, soon resolve this issue satisfactorily and that it will not one of the principal problems facing the eurozone is adversely affect the successful operation of the Hungarian the financial stability of countries such as Portugal EU presidency. and Belgium? Can he assure the House that we will take an active interest in ensuring that financial stability Lord Wright of Richmond: I draw the Minister’s remains the defining issue that this presidency deals attention to a robust statement, reported in the press with rather than Mr Orbán’s own political posturing? this morning, from the noble Baroness, Lady Ashton, on behalf of the European Union, strongly criticising Lord Howell of Guildford: Of course, we are a continuing Israeli illegal settlement activity in east major financial power and we have a major interest in Jerusalem and the continuing expulsion of Palestinians financial stability not merely in our region but at a from East Jerusalem. Can the Minister give us an global level, so these matters are bound to be at the assurance that one of the Government’s priorities over top of the agenda. However, as I stated earlier, our the next six months will be to continue pressure on actions will be governed—certainly after 2013—by Israel not only to stop but to reverse its illegal settlement our voluntary wish to move or not move in the direction activity in the West Bank and in east Jerusalem? of financial support. Before 2013, we are somewhat caught up in the existing mechanisms, but they will be Lord Howell of Guildford: Yes, it is certainly one of used with the greatest care and discretion. our priorities and one of the priorities of the European Union. We all share a concern about the illegal settlements Lord Mawhinney: My Lords— and the blockage that they are placing on the prospective progress between Israel and the Palestinians. I totally agree with the sentiments behind the noble Lord’s Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords, it is the turn questions. These are matters that will have a high of a Cross-Bencher—and independent thinker. As priority with us. noble Lords are aware, our net contribution to the EU this year will be some £8.3 billion. However, I noted from the Minister’s Answer yesterday to a Written Lord Willoughby de Broke: My Lords, will the Question that we are also paying about £3 billion to Minister, on behalf of the Government, inform the accession countries. Bearing in mind what is happening Hungarian presidency that they will now stop trying in Hungary, I would have thought that we could to push water uphill and will no longer bail out failing ensure that all those countries that are allowed to join European economies with British taxpayers’ money? the EU will be democratic at least after they have joined if not before. Lord Howell of Guildford: As for bailout provisions, after 2013 we will be under no obligation to do that Lord Howell of Guildford: I am sure that that is sort of thing unless we voluntarily wish to do so or it right. One of the core principles of the European makes sense from our national interest to do so. Before Union is a commitment to democratic values, good 2013, it is, of course, a fact that we are bound by governance, human rights and the rule of law. That is decisions of the previous Government and are bound obviously in the minds of all those considering accession to be involved to some extent. countries, and in the minds of those who govern the accession fund to which I think the noble Lord refers. Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: My Lords, will I have no disagreement with the desire to see democracy the Minister assure the House that one of our priorities spread in the best possible ways throughout the eurozone, in the European Union will be to help to encourage and indeed in the wider world. and insist on fair treatment for minorities in all EU countries, particularly the Roma people, who suffer massive discrimination in many member countries of Lord Mawhinney: My Lords— the EU? Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, in Lord Howell of Guildford: The noble Baroness is the third of the priorities that the Minister enunciated quite right to raise this concern about the Roma. We a moment ago, he said that he wanted to see more want to encourage the presidency to focus on practical concentration on the relationships with strategic partners. co-operation between member states. Indeed, we have Which strategic partners will this country prioritise in been working on practical co-operation ourselves with that discussion within the European Union? Romania on this issue. The Hungarian presidency is drawing up a framework strategy on Roma inclusion. Lord Howell of Guildford: We have in mind Russia, We have strong and effective legislation ourselves and China, the United States, India and Brazil. We are policies to tackle racial discrimination and to promote developing these strategic partnerships both bilaterally 1293 EU: Hungarian Presidency[11 JANUARY 2011] Health: Influenza 1294 and, where it makes sense and where we can combine desirability of encouraging that group of patients to effectively, with our EU partners. Those are the strategic get vaccinated. We did the right thing, which was to partnerships on our priority list. respond to emerging data.

Baroness Hussein-Ece: My Lords, is it the case that Health: Influenza the highest rate of flu has been among those aged one Question to four? Have the parents of children in that age group been encouraged to have their children vaccinated 3.02 pm over and above others? Also, have the Government changed their policy of publicising the need for the flu Asked by Baroness Thornton jab, which they did during last year’s outbreak? To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the reported increase in the incidence of influenza since Earl Howe: We did see a higher than expected the end of November; and how many adults and number of under-fives contracting influenza, so we children suffering from influenza were admitted to took urgent advice from the Joint Committee on hospital or died in December. Vaccination and Immunisation in December and asked it to confirm its previous advice that not all under-fives The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, need get vaccinated unless they were in an at-risk group. Department of Health (Earl Howe): My Lords, influenza- It confirmed that advice and we have followed it. like illness, or ILI, has increased from 13 to 98 GP consultations per 100,000 people since November. The Baroness O’Loan: There have been 14 deaths from department does not currently collect data on hospital swine flu in Northern Ireland from a population of admissions. As of 6 January, there were 783 patients 1.7 million. How would the Minister respond to the with ILI in critical care beds in England, and 50 flu- statement from the health protection agency in Northern related fatal cases verified by the Health Protection Ireland, in which Dr Carolyn Harper said: Agency in the UK. “Our sense and discussions with colleagues in the UK is that our reporting systems are more complete than in England so therefore we are more likely to capture more deaths here. England Baroness Thornton: I thank the Minister for that concede they have a larger degree of under reporting than we have Answer. Last June, I asked him about the 50 per cent here so you really cannot compare them”? cut in the communications budget for the Department Will the Minister advise whether he is satisfied with of Health. He said that, the validity of the statistics that are available? “every programme of communication or marketing has to be justified by the evidence that it will do some good”.—[Official Report, 30/6/10; col. 1798.] Earl Howe: I am satisfied with the validity of the We know that pregnant women are particularly vulnerable statistics. The problem is, of course, that there is to the H1N1 strain of influenza, and HPA’s data show always a lag. The statistics that I read out earlier in my that the risk of mortality for pregnant women is main Answer were supplied to us by the Health Protection sevenfold greater than that for non-pregnant women. Agency and regard verified laboratory tested results. Even so, midwives received a letter from Andrew We have another method of assessing the number of Lansley, dated 16 December, encouraging them to deaths that is retrospective. After the end of the flu vaccinate pregnant women. Does the Minister think season we can assess whether the number of deaths that it is possible that, had the Government acted has been higher than expected. Of course, we are earlier and had a public campaign, had they not cut endeavouring to improve our statistical base all the their public health communications budget, and had time and no doubt lessons will be learnt from this Andrew Lansley sent a letter in October rather than season, as they are from every season. December, the lives of at least one pregnant woman might have been saved? Lord Patel: My Lords, what is the basis for the differing advice in the United Kingdom about the Earl Howe: My Lords, it is quite difficult to substantiate group of people who should be vaccinated compared that suggestion, because the immunisation figures do with that given in the United States from the Centers not bear out the noble Baroness’s argument. The level for Disease Control and Prevention, which advise that of vaccine uptake in the over-65s is 70 per cent, which everyone over the age of six months should be vaccinated? is better than in most countries of Europe. Among the at-risk under-65s, it is 45.5 per cent, which is comparable Earl Howe: That is precisely why we have an to the past two years. Therefore, it is not clear that a independent Joint Committee on Vaccination and generalised campaign would have added value. Immunisation: to advise Ministers on these matters. On the question of pregnant women, the normal Ministers are bound to take that advice. Indeed, the procedure is for the Chief Medical Officer to write to previous Government determined that they were legally all GPs in the summer, setting out all the at-risk obliged to take the committee’s advice, which is what groups. She did that in June. We were then alerted in we have done. December by the Health Protection Agency to a worryingly high number of pregnant women who had Lord Winston: My Lords, is the Minister aware that contracted influenza, so we wrote to both the BMA many pregnant women are particularly nervous about and the Royal College of Midwives to emphasise the all kinds of vaccination during pregnancy, including 1295 Health: Influenza[LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 1296

[LORD WINSTON] It seems that, gradually, the Government are beginning the flu vaccination? I know that from first-hand experience. to recognise that there is a need to make substantive Does he feel that the Government are doing enough to changes to the Bill. I am grateful to the noble Lord, inform pregnant women about the risks or otherwise Lord Taylor, for his recent amendments, most of them in that instance? Could more be done? made before the Recess, taking out most judicial organisations from Schedule 7. I think that that is a Earl Howe: I am sure, as I have just said, that belated recognition of the Bill’s threats to judicial lessons can always be learnt about what more can be independence. I hope that the noble Lord will be able done. As I mentioned, we saw a lower than desirable to do more in the coming weeks. I would like Schedule 7 uptake of the vaccine in the early weeks among pregnant to be removed in its entirety and the super-affirmative women. I am happy to say that that has now been procedure to be used for every order pertaining to an rectified and a lot more pregnant women are coming organisation listed in the Bill. forward. However, it emphasises the noble Lord’s central I also hope that the noble Lord, and the noble point that perhaps GPs have a special duty at the Lord, Lord McNally, will listen sympathetically to the moment to encourage pregnant women and to reassure points made on this group of amendments. All of them that the vaccine is absolutely safe. them, in one way or another, relate to the effective administration of justice. In moving Amendment 31, I shall speak also to my Amendments 32 and 45 and Arrangement of Business comment on Amendments 40 and 42. Announcement Amendment 31 relates to the courts boards. The boards have not managed or administered the courts 3.09 pm themselves but have given advice and made constructive Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, at a convenient recommendations to foster improvements in the time after 5.30 pm today, my noble friend Lord Sassoon administrative services provided. There is one courts will repeat a Statement on bank bonuses. board for each of the local management areas administered by area directors across England and Wales. Each courts board has members drawn from Public Bodies Bill [HL] different communities and from a variety of backgrounds. Committee (6th Day) The information from the Ministry of Justice states: “Courts Boards were established because there was a fear that 3.09 pm the voice of Magistrates would be lost within a unified HM Courts Service. These fears have dissipated because other structures—such as the Justices’ Issues Group and the Area Judicial Forums—are Schedule1:Powertoabolish: bodies and offices in place to ensure that Magistrates’ views are heard. There are also strong local relationships with Magistrates’ Benches Chairs”. Amendment 31 However, I have received a number of letters from Moved by Lord Hunt of Kings Heath chairs of local area courts boards expressing concerns. To summarise them, there are two. The first is that, at 31: Schedule 1, page 16, line 24, leave out “Courts boards.” a time of a programme of court closures, no local independent review can take place. The chairs of the Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, in moving committees believe that the reduction in the number of Amendment 31 on behalf of my noble friend Lord local courts creates a greater need for mechanisms to Bach, I intend also to speak to other amendments in keep in touch with communities and to identify local the first group. needs. The point is also made by the chairmen in the The Government have, during the Recess, had a letters that I have received that boards can help to little time to reflect on the Bill. The Minister will know advise Her Majesty’s Courts Service on ways in which of the evidence given by the Lord Chief Justice to the policies can be implemented at local level so as to help Constitution Committee, which, as he knows, was to ensure the most effective use of resources. I would highly critical of the Bill. We have also very recently be grateful for the response of the noble Lord, Lord received the report of the Commons Select Committee McNally, to the concerns raised by the chairs of those on Public Administration, chaired by a Conservative committees. MP, Mr Bernard Jenkin, which was also highly critical of the Bill. As the Select Committee report states, the 3.15 pm review leading up to the Bill, Turning to Amendment 32, on the Crown Court “was poorly managed. There was no meaningful consultation, the Rule Committee, perhaps I may also speak to tests the review used were not clearly defined and the Cabinet Amendment 42 in the name of my noble friend Lady Office failed to establish a proper procedure for departments to Hayter concerning the Magistrates’ Courts Rule follow. It is important that the Government learn lessons from Committee. On this, the Government have said that these mistakes as it has indicated that future reviews are likely to following the creation of the Criminal Procedure be run in broadly the same way. To ensure their effectiveness future reviews should not be conducted in a similar way”. Rule Committee, which now makes all criminal rules Amen to that. The Select Committee continues: under the Courts Act 2003, the Crown Court Rule Committee has lost the majority of its functions, “The Bill giving the Government the power to bring about these changes was equally badly drafted. It is being significantly making it a near-defunct body. I would be grateful if re-written by the House of Lords and we intend to issue a further the noble Lord, Lord McNally, would indicate that detailed report on the Bill once the Lords have finished their the Government are happy with the work of the scrutiny”. Criminal Procedure Rule Committee. I ask that because 1297 Public Bodies Bill [HL][11 JANUARY 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 1298 it originally appeared in the list of organisations in agency. She says that such a transition, in her view, Schedule 7, but the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, has adds to the case for a strong and integrated governance signalled, in his Amendment 142ZA, the Government’s structure to succeed the Public Guardian Board, which intention to remove it from Schedule 7. That leaves a has operated until now alongside the internal management question mark in my mind as to the Government’s processes of the OPG, and I very much welcome the intention in regard to that committee. noble Lord’s comments on that. I would also like him The aim of the abolition of the Magistrates’ Courts to reflect on the Mental Capacity Act and the role of Rule Committee is to, the Public Guardian Board in acting as the independent “reflect the fact that the much reduced remit”, watchdog for the rollout and effect of legislative change. After the board’s demise, it would be even more important of the committee, that the Government are alive to the provisions of the “does not warrant the maintenance of the Committee”. Act and its role in promoting active citizenship and Can the noble Lord confirm that the Magistrates’ protecting the vulnerable. Association was consulted and will he say what its I shall end by referring to what Mrs Varley said comments were? I know that the Lord Chief Justice about changes in the NHS. Here, I must declare an has indicated his agreement in principle to the abolition interest and refer noble Lords to the register in relation of the committee, but it would have been useful to to the National Health Service. As she writes in her obtain the views of the Magistrates’ Association—no foreword, doubt, the Government have done so. “the Department of Health is closing its MCA Implementation I shall comment briefly on Amendment 40, which I team, Local Authorities are trimming all but essential services, know that the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, will and Primary Care Trusts are being abolished. The challenge to want to speak to. The argument for the abolition of the Government, in maintaining the momentum and reaping the the inspectorate is that, potential of the MCA in the face of such financial constraint and organisational upheaval, is enormous”. “Her Majesty’s Courts Service is established as a single body responsible for the administration of all courts, with its own I would be most grateful if the noble Lord, Lord robust management information systems and audit processes in McNally, would also comment on that. I beg to move. place”— the prose of the Ministry of Justice rolls off the Lord Ramsbotham: My Lords, I rise to support tongue. The Government therefore consider that, Amendment 40, which refers to Her Majesty’s Inspectorate “the Inspectorate’s functions relating to the independent inspection of Court Administration. In doing so, and in wishing of court administration are no longer needed”. to greet the Minister and wish him a happy new year, I I would be grateful if the noble Lord, Lord McNally, say that I have nothing but respect and admiration for would amplify the thinking of his department on this the way in which the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, has and, in particular, the rationale for saying that the conducted what I can only describe as a hospital pass closure of the inspectorate, on what I think everyone I have spoken to regards as “will allow government to get a better, more consistent grip on an extremely bad Bill. Frankly, the Bill needs to be regulation and inspection”. taken back and thought through again because of the I must say that I think that that is a heroic argument sheer amount of time and effort that is going to be for getting rid of an independent inspectorate. One taken going over ground that need not be gone over, always has to raise issues and questions about any although I am sure that everyone is respectful of the proposal to abolish an independent inspectorate and original intention, which was to look at unnecessary the House needs to pay very close attention indeed to quangos, as they have been called, and other bodies. It that matter. seems that, in looking at the unnecessary, a number of the necessary have been swept up, which will require a Amendment 45 concerns the Public Guardian Board, great deal of time to eliminate or move. Therefore, I which was set up under the Mental Capacity Act 2005 speak with interest in the outcome but with concern at to scrutinise and review the way in which the Public the number of good things that are liable to go under Guardian discharges his functions and to make the axe for all the wrong reasons unless there is some recommendations to the Lord Chancellor. I want, thinking again. first, to pay tribute to the work of the board and its members, particularly Rosie Varley, the chair of the When I was Chief Inspector of Prisons, I was board. I read with interest the annual report of the concerned that the prisons were a part of, not apart Public Guardian Board, particularly the chairman’s from, the criminal justice system. To an outsider coming foreword, where she says that, in, the criminal justice system did not look like a system; it looked like a number of warring tribes “we agree that an advisory board such as ours cannot continue competing with one another for ever diminishing resources, into the future, and we support the proposal in the Public Bodies Bill, currently before Parliament, that we should be one of the which in fact made the whole system less efficient. bodies that ceases to exist. We hope that robust alternative There were inspectorates of different parts of that arrangements for the OPG’s governance will be put in place”. system and collectively we came together to decide She goes on to describe the active part that she what we could do to bring to the Government’s attention played in discussions about more streamlined governance the fact that, if all these different agencies worked arrangements for the OPG. She says that she is clear better together, the result would be better. about the need for effective accountability and challenge Six inspectorates came together to discuss that: the within an arm of government. She argues for the OPG Inspectorate of Prisons, the Inspectorate of Probation, to adopt a more businesslike model and to be freed the Inspectorate of Constabulary, the Crown Prosecution from the judicial constraints of a central government Service Inspectorate, the then Magistrates’ Court Service 1299 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 1300

[LORD RAMSBOTHAM] I put to noble Lords that nothing that I have seen in Inspectorate and the then Social Services Inspectorate. practice and in the research that has been done has We did so because we felt that all of us had something been more efficient, effective and economical than the to contribute not just overall when all six of us were functioning of this inspectorate. The Cabinet Office, involved, but where, as studies showed, two or more in producing the impact assessment on this Bill—I might come together in order to produce an outcome. have spoken about this many times already—says that The first report that we produced was a study of it is ridiculous to have an impact assessment on a Bill casework and information needs within the criminal that says that there is no impact on the criminal justice justice system, which pointed out exactly what each of system. Yet here we are in Amendment 40 getting deep these six areas needed of the others, what was available, into the heart of the criminal justice system, which is what was not available and what was available with being affected. difficulty.When we presented this report to the Ministers, Why is there no impact assessment? It is because it caused considerable confusion. The report showed the Cabinet Office is not the right place to produce an the need for joint cross-government working, but the assessment of the impact of removing a courts inspectorate Government were unable to receive it. The strength of on the working of a justice system that is the responsibility that report was that each of those separate inspectorates of the Ministry of Justice. The Cabinet Office says: was able to contribute its expertise to come up with a “It is therefore not possible to provide details of the likely combined whole, which would not have been possible costs and impacts of the Bill, as any costs or impacts arising from unless they had all worked together. its use relate to orders made under its powers rather than to the In 2003, the Magistrates’ Court Service Inspectorate Bill itself”. was overtaken by Her Majesty’s inspector of the courts, That, I suggest, is a cop out. The Explanatory Notes which looks at Crown Courts, county courts and go on to say: magistrates’ courts. Its job is to report on the system “When Departments use powers, they will produce full impact that supports the carrying on of their business. At the assessments of the change or changes they are seeking”. same time, the Police and Justice Act 2006 requires the In that case, why has this House not been given an courts inspectorate to work with other criminal justice impact assessment by the Ministry of Justice of the system inspectorates—in the way that I have just outlined impact of removing this inspectorate and the costs of and as we were doing ourselves until then—to look at what it will have to put in its place? If you are going to the end-to-end justice process and to improve the have a criminal justice system that works properly, you experience of all people who use or work within the need the courts and, if you need the courts, you need justice system. That is a very large remit. an inspectorate to oversee their functions. I hope very The remit of the courts inspectorate covers three much that the Government will think again about this types of inspection: area inspections to look at court thoroughly unnecessary proposal. If they do not, I services within particular areas; thematic inspections suspect that it will be essential for this House to vote to look at particular themes, including examples of on the issue. good practice, to see how improvements can be made; and joint inspections of the type that I have just 3.30 pm outlined. For example, recently, there has been a joint Lord Woolf: My Lords, it is a while since I first thematic inspection by the Crown Prosecution Service addressed the House with regard to this Bill. I start my Inspectorate and the inspector of constabulary on present remarks by saying that I acknowledge that the victim and witness experiences. That could not have Government have made a significant improvement to been carried out unless experts were working together the Bill in the action that they have taken. I congratulate and bringing their expertise jointly to the result. the Minister and his team on the attention that they The courts inspectorate recently carried out an have given, particularly to the bodies associated with inspection of the Coroners Service for Northern Ireland. the courts that had been in Schedule 7. I feel much It provided a very useful report, which of course has more comfortable with the Bill in consequence of the great relevance in the context of this Bill if, as I hope, changes that have been made. However, I have to say the chief coroner is appointed, as was intended in the that this Bill, which is sometimes referred to as achieving previous Bill. In order to make the coroners service a bonfire of quangos, would in my view be further work, there has to be someone to ensure that the improved if there was to be a bonfire of Schedule 7. I courts in which that service functions are working. hope that the further consideration of the Bill, which I In addition to that, the Government have announced believe is still continuing, will bring about that result. that 93 magistrates and 49 county courts will be cut. I listened with great care to what the noble Lord, Inevitably, that will have an impact on the delivery of Lord Hunt, said about the provisions that are the court services throughout the country. An experienced subject of his amendments. I do not think that I can inspectorate will be needed to go around examining usefully add anything to that, apart from saying that the impact of this and to come up with firm when the boards were introduced—I was Lord Chief recommendations and advice to Ministers as to what Justice at the time—arrangements were made for a may need to be done to ameliorate the problem or to senior judge, one no less distinguished than the present introduce other arrangements. Lord Chief Justice, to serve on that board to express Clause 8 stipulates the objectives to which the Minister the views of the judiciary. However, I think that things must have regard when making an order under Clause 1. have moved on since then, so the topic is much more One of the objectives is, debatable than it would have been some time ago. The “achieving increased efficiency, effectiveness and economy in the arrangements for consultation between the judiciary exercise of public functions”. and the departments with which they are particularly 1301 Public Bodies Bill [HL][11 JANUARY 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 1302 concerned are in general working smoothly, so the have been given so far but to deal with the system of boards are no longer as important as they were in the the Bill as a whole by indicating at an early stage that early days of the unified criminal justice system. Amendment 175 or a similar provision will bind Ministers On the inspectorate, I would urge that the speech when they exercise their delegated powers. That is the that we have just heard from the noble Lord, Lord price that Ministers must pay if they are not to proceed Ramsbotham, who probably knows more about by way of primary legislation. There need to be inspectorates than anybody else in the country, should constitutional limits on the powers exercised by Ministers, be listened to with care. The inspectorate for the as Committees of this House have indicated in the past. courts system was not, if my recollection is correct, a proposal about which the judiciary jumped with joy Lord Newton of Braintree: My Lords, I am afraid when it was first suggested. It was thought—I would that I cannot claim, like the noble and learned Lord, say with good reason—that there could be insuperable Lord Woolf, not to have taken part recently in proceedings problems over the independence of the courts system on this Bill, because I have been a persistent defender if an outside inspectorate was to look in at what the of my Front Bench, nor do I intend to stop being so courts were doing. All that I can say is that, in practice, today. the inspectorate has worked remarkably well, as have However, I want to associate myself in two respects all the inspectorates, of each of which I am a fan. The with the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham. inspectorates make a significant contribution to the First, I think that the Bill leaves—to put it mildly—a proper functioning of the administration in the areas lot to be desired. Secondly, I think that the noble in which they operate. I do not think that it was Lord, Lord Taylor of Holbeach, is to be congratulated intended to be suggested—and if it was, I would not on the way he has dealt with this poisoned chalice. I agree with the suggestion—that the inspectorate should am glad to see that, if I have read the runes aright, the act as a sort of court of appeal. If the inspectorate person speaking to the proposals today will be a keeps to administration, it can perform a useful function. Minister from the Ministry of Justice, which is where That function will still have to be performed even if the proposals originated from and where any blame the inspectorate does not exist and, if the inspectorate for them, if blame is justified, should lie. is abolished, proper arrangements will need to be By way of other brief preliminary, I should say that made to ensure that that happens. when I first saw the schedule of headline decisions that was published in early October—this picks up a point Lord Lester of Herne Hill: My Lords, I apologise to made earlier by the noble Lord, Lord Lester—I could the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, that I was not able to be find no intellectual coherence at all in the Ministry of here to hear his speech. I was upstairs in the Joint Justice’s proposals, which seemed to be piecemeal Committee on Human Rights, which has authorised suggestions with no connection between them whatever. me to ask the Minister whether, as we were given I hope, therefore, that at least we may have some to understand, we will receive the human rights coherent explanation about the pattern of these proposals memorandum from the Cabinet Office so that our and decisions for procedure rule committees, justice committee can do its job properly. That memorandum councils and other bodies, including CAFCASS, that has still not been received and we want to finalise our are scattered about, most of which are now to be report by next Tuesday. I hope that the Minister can withdrawn from Schedule 7 by the amendments that tell us in his reply that what was promised many weeks have been helpfully tabled by the noble Lord, Lord ago will happen. Taylor of Holbeach. My second point in general support of the amendments However—I do not know whether the noble and is that, although it is admirable that some bodies of a learned Lord, Lord Woolf, has spotted this—unless judicial nature may be removed from the schedules by my eyes have deceived me the Civil Justice Council will other amendments, if Amendment 175 in my name potentially remain on the list of bodies in Schedule 7. and in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick—a If I have that wrong, I would be glad to be told. That paving amendment for which was approved by the links with my own frequently expressed concern about House on the first day in Committee—is accepted by the Administrative Justice and Tribunals Council—in the Government and not sought to be reversed in the which I have declared an historical interest—which other place, the provisions in Amendment 175 will be has been separated out and put down for the chop in relevant to our discussions today and hereafter. It is Schedule 1. There is no intellectual coherence at all to unsatisfactory that we are having this debate without the proposals. I would like to hear some coherence this knowing whether Amendment 175 will stand. Importantly, afternoon. Amendment 175 would apply not only to courts but I will make three other points. First, the noble to any body—whether a court or not—that performs Lord, Lord Hunt, asked some good questions. My a judicial function and it would deal with the issue answers might not necessarily be the same as his in all of independence raised by the noble Lord, Lord cases, but those questions need answering. Secondly, I Ramsbotham. share almost completely the doubts of the noble Lord, In a sense, we are putting the cart before the horse Lord Ramsbotham. We are getting rid of too much because a failure to insert into the Bill the criteria independent outside inspection or oversight of bodies against which all these decisions can be measured and are being told, in effect, that the Ministry of means that we are having to proceed piecemeal, body Justice can take care of itself and does not want these by body, at enormous and appalling length in the bodies breathing down its neck. That does not correspond Committee process. I respectfully urge the Government with my views about how government in this kind of to accept these amendments for all the reasons that society should work or how it works best. Thirdly, I 1303 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 1304

[LORD NEWTON OF BRAINTREE] the civil justice system some years ago because it was echo the concerns expressed by other noble Lords important to get coherence between the way in which about the way in which the proposals have been handled. the county court and the higher court dealt with I reiterate what I said at the beginning because, as a criminal matters. Tremendous and useful work was House, we need some reassurance that, frankly, the done under the chairmanship of my noble and learned Government know what they are doing. friend to produce a coherent system of civil justice. There is a good deal to be said for the view that a Lord Mackay of Clashfern: My Lords, we have to coherent system of criminal justice requires the same keep it in mind that, at this stage, the Bill seeks to treatment. As has been said, the body that is central to confer powers and does not provide the final decision that is to be deleted from Schedule 7. We have to salute on any of these matters. I respectfully agree with improvement. It is true that we might have started my noble friend Lord Lester of Herne Hill that better, but few people in government have started Amendment 175 needs to be taken into account in this perfectly and never had to improve—experience teaches connection. From the point of view of propriety in Ministers as well as others. this House, one considers the Bill on the basis that The court inspectorate is Her Majesty’s Inspectorate Amendment 175 has been accepted. Therefore, from of Court Administration. When the administration my point of view, we approach the Bill at this stage has been remodelled, there is certainly a question following a decision by this House that has accepted whether the administration inspectorate is still required. that amendment—an extremely important amendment— It is not necessary at this stage to decide that question— which very much restricts the powers that the Bill that is not what we are doing—but it is wise to leave provides. the matter open for consideration. The criteria in In connection with reviewing the work of these Amendment 175, which have been accepted by the quangos, as they have been called, the position has to House, are fundamental in that regard because the be that, if such a review is to take place on a fairly matters will be considered against a background of large scale, there is a need for an all-embracing Bill considerable protection. that provides the powers, with the detailed consideration I salute the improvements that have been made in following at a later stage of whether, and how, it is the Bill and I hope that improvement may continue. In appropriate to exercise those powers in any particular the mean time, I think that it would be impossible to case. For example, Schedule 1 provides a power to carry out an effective review of the quangos except by amalgamate or hand over a body’s power, principally an over-riding Bill of this kind. Primary legislation for to another body. each of these quangos would occupy the whole of the parliamentary session without room for anything else. 3.45 pm Most of us agree that there are other things that I go along with the approach to these amendments require doing as well as dealing with quangos. that the noble Lord from the opposition Front Bench has taken. Having had some responsibility for originally The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord introducing Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Courts McNally): My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, Administration, I recall—my recollection is somewhat said that this Bill was a hospital pass. If anyone wants akin to that of my noble and learned friend Lord a definition of a hospital pass, it would be to have to Woolf—that the proposal for such an inspectorate reply to a debate on the criminal justice system when was not embraced with wholehearted unanimity by the contributions have come from the noble Lords, all magistrates or judges. There was a fear that the Lord Hunt, Lord Ramsbotham, Lord Lester of Herne inspectorate could interfere with the independence of Hill and Lord Newton of Braintree, the noble and magistrates and the judiciary. Since then, the Lord learned Lord, Lord Woolf, and, just for good measure, Chancellor and the Ministry of Justice have taken the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern. over complete responsibility for the magistrates’ courts. It makes you feel plumb inadequate. However, I shall In those days, the magistrates’ courts were independent do my best to take the responsibility of the Ministry of and the best that the Lord Chancellor could do was Justice for the proposals that these amendments seek address the Magistrates’ Association annually—usually to change. followed by a fairly difficult question and answer In some ways, to sound a philosophical note on session, of which I have distinct recollections. this, I have never seen it as being a weakening of our Regarding the amendments, we have to bear in system when a ministry takes responsibility and says mind—as did the opening speech—that these decisions that it will be responsible to Parliament and to the will not be taken by this House today. The only scrutiny of Parliament for what it carries out in its question is whether the power should be conferred in remit. In some ways, in recent years, with proper and respect of these bodies. I can see arguments there, but due respect to the work of independent inspectorates, I do not believe that the detail of that power is not we have sometimes got over-reliant on, and have appropriate for consideration today. tended to reach for, the independent inspectorate for On courts boards and the like, the reorganisation of responsibilities which should be the responsibility to the administration of the courts has an important Parliament of the department and Ministers in that bearing. For my part, I do not feel strongly that the department. courts boards should be retained. In answer to the question asked by the noble Lord, On the Crown Court Rule Committee and the Lord Hunt, we believe that the Criminal Procedure Magistrates’ Courts Rule Committee, I am reminded Rule Committee has made an important contribution that my noble and learned friend Lord Woolf examined and have no intention of abolishing it. We have now 1305 Public Bodies Bill [HL][11 JANUARY 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 1306 removed it from Schedule 7. As the noble and learned a unified courts system. These fears have dissipated Lord, Lord Mackay, said, the problem in Committee and there are now other structures in place such as is that if you make changes you are accused of U-turns the Justice Issues Group and area judicial forums to and if you do not you are accused of inflexibility. ensure that magistrates’ views are heard. There are Those are the burdens that we carry. also strong local relationships with magistrates’ bench I shall try to address the issues raised by the chairs. The Magistrates’ Association was not consulted group of amendments, which would remove the before inclusion, but of course will be available for courts boards, the Crown Court Rule Committee, Her the consultation which will precede implementation of Majesty’s Inspectorate of Court Administration, the any of these proposals. Public Guardian Board and the Magistrates’ Courts Courts boards only ever performed an advisory Rule Committee from Schedule 1. We oppose these function, and the function was significantly diminished amendments because it would mean the retention of over the last five years. As I mentioned, as a result of five arm’s-length bodies whose functions will no longer amalgamations, the number of courts boards has reduced be required, either because their role has significantly from 42 to 19. diminished over recent years and is now being performed In terms of those functions, I should emphasise by other bodies or because alternative ways of performing that courts boards do not themselves manage or these functions have been identified. administer the courts, but rather give advice and make I am surprised that the noble Lord, Lord Bach—who recommendations to enable Her Majesty’s Courts Service is not here today—has tabled these amendments in to improve the service it provides. The Courts Service relation to the courts boards and Her Majesty’s sought the views of the judiciary. It is the view of the Inspectorate of Court Administration, given that he Courts Service and members of the judiciary that was the Minister in the Ministry of Justice when the courts boards are no longer necessary to assist in the decision to abolish them was originally taken by the administration of the courts in this way. Not abolishing last Administration. the courts boards will cost the Ministry of Justice approximately £450,000 a year. For the convenience of the House, I intend to respond to the five amendments in this one speech, The senior presiding judge himself recognises the because part of the rationale asked for is overlapping. difficult decisions needed to be made in the light of the I hope that it is compelling in the reason for the financial pressures which Her Majesty’s Courts Service abolition of these boards. The first reason is, in following faces. Although clearly it is a matter for Parliament, their review of all arm’s-length bodies, the coalition the senior presiding judge does not take the view that Government have agreed with the judgment of the courts boards constitute an essential part of the business previous Administration that the function of certain of the courts. He agrees that the savings which will of these bodies is no longer required. Like the last result from that abolition, although relatively minor, Administration, we believe that the courts boards and could be used to support front-line services. Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Court Administration In terms of maintaining an oversight on the local should be abolished and that this Bill represents the delivery of court services, it is true that the role of the best mechanism to effect these reforms. The second courts boards is to use their judgment to ensure that reason is that the function of some of these bodies has the perspective of the local community and of those greatly diminished over recent years and is now largely who use the courts is taken into account. But there are performed by other bodies. The Crown Court Rule other ways to ensure that the needs of the community Committee and the Magistrates’ Courts Rule Committee are met, such as customer surveys, open days and fall into this category. It was exactly to identify these more effective use of court user meetings. Her Majesty’s sorts of near-defunct bodies that the coalition Courts Service is committed to building and maintaining Government’s review of the arm’s-length bodies was links with local communities, and local areas will be conducted. Again, the Bill provides an excellent and encouraged to explore other options to ensure that timely opportunity to remove such bodies from the links between the courts and local communities is not statute book. I am pleased to note that the Lord Chief lost, specifically within the wider context of the current Justice agrees with the Government’s proposals in proposals to modernise and improve the use of courts. relation to these two bodies. The previous Administration originally took the The third reason is that although the Government decision to abolish the courts boards, and the coalition recognise the need to perform particular functions, we Government have agreed that their function is no believe there are more efficient ways of doing so. The longer required and have introduced this Bill to effect oversight function performed by the Public Guardian this reform. Board falls into this category, and I will explain in a The noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, referred to moment how the Government propose to develop new Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Court Administration, governance arrangements to oversee the work of the and I will discuss the rationale behind the Government’s Public Guardian. decision to abolish that. The context within which the Beyond these three broad reasons, I will outline our inspectorate operates has changed significantly since reasoning for each of the five bodies covered by the its inception in 2005. The inspectorate’s predecessor, amendments. In the case of the 19 remaining courts Her Majesty’s Magistrates’ Court Service Inspectorate, boards, this decision was first taken by the previous was set up before the magistrates’ courts were part of a Administration, and announced in March 2010. Courts national Courts Service. It was right that an independent boards were established partly because there was a body existed to inspect court administration. However, fear that the voice of magistrates would be lost within Her Majesty’s Courts Service has since been established 1307 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 1308

[LORD MCNALLY] range of responsibilities. Therefore, when I saw this as a single body, responsible for the administration of proposal I wanted very much to be assured that we all courts, with its own robust management information were going in the right direction. The Public Guardian systems and internal audit processes. The Courts Service Board was set up under the Mental Capacity Act is subject to external scrutiny by the National Audit 2005, to scrutinise and review the way in which the Office and, by extension, the Public Accounts Committee. Public Guardian discharges his function and to make I draw the Committee’s attention to the 2009 National recommendations to the Lord Chancellor. I stress that Audit Office report on the administration of the Crown the abolition of the Public Guardian Board will not Court as an example of this external scrutiny. For alter the duties or statutory functions of the Public these reasons, Her Majesty’s Courts Service will no Guardian. On the contrary, the Government are seeking longer be subject to independent inspection. to strengthen the oversight mechanisms to ensure that the important work of the Public Guardian continues 4pm to be supported. In terms of the inspectorate’s other functions, Before I outline the reasons behind the decision to consideration is being given to the option for enabling abolish the board, I should stress that the Government future joint criminal justice inspections to include are committed to the important principles of the inspection of the Courts Service for the purpose of Mental Capacity Act 2005, which puts individuals end-to-end inspection: for example, in tracking categories who may lack capacity at the centre of any decision of cases from initial arrest to charge, court appearance, that affects them. However, we need to assess whether court result and rehabilitation or custody. Similar it remains the right mechanism to achieve the appropriate consideration is being given to the inspection of court level and form of oversight of the work of the Public custody areas and how the UK may comply fully with Guardian. The Public Guardian Board has recognised requirements under the optional protocol to the UN this and needs to establish more streamlined governance convention against torture. As noted, the decision to arrangements in the current economic climate. I quote abolish the inspectorate was made in December 2009 directly from the chair of the board’s foreword that the by the previous Administration and reaffirmed by this noble Lord, Lord Hunt, referred to: Government as part of our review of arm’s-length “Given the current financial constraints and the Government’s bodies. Reform of the court estate has no bearing on obligation to concentrate public expenditure on essential functions, this decision. we agree that an advisory board such as ours cannot continue into the future, and we support the proposal in the Public Bodies The Crown Court Rule Committee is the first of Bill, currently before Parliament, that we should be one of the two bodies whose functions have now greatly diminished bodies that ceases to exist”. over recent years, and I shall set out the reasons for the The Government recognise the need to ensure that the Government’s proposal to abolish it. This amendment vulnerable people who rely on the Public Guardian would lead to the retention of a body which is effectively and his office are properly protected but, having defunct. The committee was created by the Supreme undertaken the assessment outlined above, have decided Court Act 1981. Following the creation, under the that this can be covered by other means. Courts Act 2003, of the Criminal Procedure Rule I refer to what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Committee the overwhelming majority of the functions Lester of Herne Hill, and the noble and learned Lord, of the Crown Court Rule Committee have been absorbed Lord Mackay, about Amendment 175. I understand by the former, making the latter effectively obsolete. that discussions are still going on between the proposers The Committee may be concerned that the Government of the amendment and the Bill team. I am told—and are seeking to abolish the Criminal Procedure Rule much reassured—that there is a meeting between the Committee. That is not the intention. The Criminal Bill team and the noble Lord, Lord Lester, tomorrow Procedure Rule Committee has effectively replaced on this matter. I am reasonably confidant that, when the Crown Court Rule Committee and the functions Amendment 175 is reached, it will mesh in and give the of the latter, if not the body itself, will continue to reassurance that both the noble Lord, Lord Lester, and exist. I note for your Lordships that the Lord Chief the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, referred to. Justice has again indicated his agreement, in principle, The five amendments before us relate to bodies to the abolition of this committee. whose functions the previous Administration agreed I turn to the Magistrates’ Courts Rule Committee are no longer required or are either defunct or near and the amendment tabled on it by the noble Baroness, obsolete. On the particular issue of the Public Guardian, Lady Hayter; it is the second of the bodies whose the Government are determined to seek alternative remits have been circumscribed. Removing the arrangements that will insure that whatever is put in Magistrates’ Courts Rule Committee from Schedule 1 place will include independent non-executive input would mean retaining a body with a very limited from individuals who can represent the range of interest remit. Moreover, it would be likely to prove very in the work of the Public Guardian and his office. I difficult to attract suitable candidates to apply to serve realise that a quite long response gives certain coherence on a body with a much reduced scope. The existing to what is always a difficult decision by a department statutory rule-making committees are in a very good in terms of meeting—we have never hidden the fact— position to advise and be consulted by the Lord Chief demands for expenditure cuts. We feel that those that Justice. are covered by the Ministry of Justice get the balance Finally, I turn to the rationale for the proposed right in that we are taking the responsibilities within abolition of the Public Guardian Board. I share the the department where necessary. We are recognising concern of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt; the role of the changes that the previous Administration recognised Public Guardian is extremely important across a wide in the role of some of them. 1309 Public Bodies Bill [HL][11 JANUARY 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 1310

In the light of that explanation, I hope that the Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I congratulate noble Lord will be content to withdraw the amendment. the noble Lord, Lord McNally, on that quick pass to the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, in relation to the Lord Lester of Herne Hill: Before the Minister sits memorandum. I can helpfully confirm that it was the down, perhaps I may first confirm that there will be practice of the previous Government to submit very discussions tomorrow. We very much hope that the pith lengthy memorandums to the Select Committee, and and substance of Amendment 175 will be retained, no doubt the Cabinet Office will be pleased to do so to subject to drafting improvements. One hopes that that the committee of the noble Lord, Lord Lester, in due will lead to a result that we can all agree upon. The one course. matter that my noble friend the Minister has not dealt I agree with the noble Lord, Lord McNally, that it with—because it is not his responsibility—is the question is a privilege to take part in a debate in which the that I raised at the beginning about the Joint Committee noble and learned Lords, Lord Woolf and Lord Mackay on Human Rights. Can my noble friend the Minister of Clashfern, and the noble Lords, Lord Ramsbotham, please nudge my noble friend the other Minister for Lord Lester and Lord Newton, have spoken. The noble some kind of assurance for the committee so that we Lord, Lord Lester, went to the heart of the matter can do our job properly by getting the human rights when he talked about the architecture of the Bill. We memorandum this week so that we can deal with it are going through the schedules, debating each when we meet next Tuesday? organisation, without knowing the final outcome of the architecture. It would be helpful if, at an early Lord McNally: Like the seventh cavalry coming stage, the Government could set out some of their over the hill, my noble friend Lord Taylor nudged thinking about whether they are prepared to make me to say that the Government will answer any changes to the architecture. questions that the JCHR has and will deal with that in I have added my name to Amendment 175. I agree correspondence with the committee. The Government with the noble Lord, Lord Lester, and the noble and consider that the provisions of the Bill are compatible learned Lord, Lord Mackay, that it is very important. with convention rights but I am sure that the promised I certainly believe that it is consequential to Amendment exchange of correspondence will clarify that matter. 1 and would expect the House to accept it formally when we reach it. However, we have yet to hear whether Lord Lester of Herne Hill: I am sorry but that the Government intend to seek to reverse it in the answer is not compatible with the general approach of other place or to make substantial amendments to it. this Government and previous Governments to that The noble Lord, Lord McNally, made some very committee. The undertaking that has been given in the promising comments in relation to the meeting that is past is that the Minister’s compatibility statement to take place tomorrow between the noble Lord, Lord in every Bill is followed by a proper Explanatory Lester, and the officials of the noble Lord, Lord Memorandum to enable the committee to do its job Taylor. However, we will have to await the outcome of properly. Therefore, it is for the Government first to that. To a certain extent we are still working in the come forward with their account of why the Bill is dark with regard to the final architecture. I believe considered to be compatible and the committee then that the architecture would be immeasurably improved, comments on that, rather than the other way round. I as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, has suggested, very much hope that that can be reconsidered because by removing Schedule 7 altogether. That would commend otherwise the committee will have to complain about itself to many noble Lords in all parts of the House. I the fact that it has not had the usual memorandum also believe that the super-affirmative procedure order from the Cabinet Office and therefore cannot do its should be used when it comes to the use of orders in job properly. That simply wastes public money and the Bill. In the mean time, it is right to treat each body time. listed in the Bill on its merits. I was very happy with the response given by the noble Lord, Lord McNally, Lord McNally: My Lords, one of the advantages of to my Amendments 31, 32 and 42. I shall certainly not having Hansard and of having my noble friend Lord seek to press Amendment 31 this afternoon. Taylor sitting next to me is that he will have heard that I also understand what the noble Lord, Lord McNally, exchange, will read it carefully in the morning and has said about the balance between the contribution respond to it appropriately. of independent bodies and the role of departments and Ministers. There is a balance to be drawn. It is Lord Newton of Braintree: My Lords, as the right that Ministers should be held to account for the troublemaker, or one of them, it would be churlish of major decisions that are made, albeit within individual me not to acknowledge that I thought that was a government departments. Equally, I think we all agree pretty reasonable reply overall. If it were my amendment, that independent bodies have a role to play as well. It I would be minded to withdraw it while reflecting on is a question of where you draw the line. My own some of the points that have been made, particularly party is not opposed to the abolition of a number of about inspectorates. the bodies that are listed in this Bill. We support the general proposition that these kind of bodies need to Lord McNally: That now puts me 3:2 up as regards be reviewed regularly and that no public body has a interventions by the noble Lord, Lord Newton—by right to exist for ever. On the other hand, I listened that I mean that he has supported me three times and with great interest to the powerful speech of the noble has caused trouble twice—so I think I shall quit while Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, on Her Majesty’s Inspectorate I am ahead. of Court Administration. He made a very good case. 1311 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 1312

[LORD HUNT OF KINGS HEATH] Government are exploring options for continuing to The noble Lord, Lord McNally, is right; this appeared gain the disability advice that is needed through a in a Green Paper in 2009 as a candidate for abolition. more flexible, accountable structure. For the latter, it is Nonetheless, when we come to Amendment 40, the proposed that the functions can be carried out between House needs to listen very carefully to what the noble the DWP, external specialist advice and Equality 2025. Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, said. It seems that in respect of these two particular On the Public Guardian Board, I am very grateful organisations, the decision has already been taken that to the noble Lord, Lord McNally, for his response and they will be terminated. What is to go in their place is for his commitment to the Mental Capacity Act. He as yet unclear. recognised the role that has been undertaken by Mrs Rosie We are promised consultation on the successor to Varley and her committee members. I take it from DPTAC. Perhaps the Minister will advise us on the what he said that his department will wish to ensure exploration of the options and on what precisely is so that this work, albeit in a different form, will continue inflexible about the current arrangements. One complaint in the future. about the current structure that seems to drive the proposed change is that DPTAC has a degree of 4.15 pm independence and takes forward areas of work that reflect its own priorities and not necessarily those of Lord Ramsbotham: My Lords, perhaps I may speak the Government. This seems a particularly perverse briefly to Amendment 40. I agree with the noble Lord, reason to close it down. Surely this is a case where Lord Newton, that it would be churlish at this stage to independence should be welcomed. DPTAC can rightly press for a vote. I am enormously grateful for the claim that much of the improvement over the past explanation given by the noble Lord, Lord McNally, 20 years in the mobility of disabled people can be which frankly I and many other Members of the traced to the work that it has undertaken. House would have welcomed before this stage. If all that information was available, why could it not have The Minister will be aware that DPTAC started life been put in the Explanatory Notes and given to us in as an informal group and, because of its success, was another form? We are going to have the same sort of placed on a statutory basis in 1985 by a Conservative debate when other issues, such as the Youth Justice Government. The Transport Act of that year requires Board, come up for discussion. If alternative plans the organisation to consider any matter referred to it have already been made it would be enormously helpful by Transport Ministers, and to give advice on any to know those in advance so that we can weigh them issue that is relevant to the transport needs of disabled against the bald statement in the Bill. people. I listened with great care to noble Lords’ contributions, I am advised that DPTAC also has statutory functions particularly that of the noble and learned Lord, Lord through other legislation. For example, the Equality Mackay, whose wisdom I respect hugely and whose Act requires the Secretary of State for Transport to advice I listen to. In that spirit, it would be sensible to consult it before making rail vehicle accessibility withdraw Amendment 40 with, I hope, discussions to regulations. Who will be consulted in future when follow with the possibility of resuming it later. I have such regulations are made? Has the Minister given read the National Audit Office report—I worked for equivalent consideration to other duties that are currently the National Audit Office in other respects. I am not imposed by statute? I thought that we had common sure that it completely fills the remit, although it fills cause with the Government in recognising that disabled some of it. Again, this is an issue it would be sensible people were experts in their own lives. How will the to look at in detail before necessarily pressing it to Government ensure that their voices are not drowned a vote. out by those of transport providers? The Minister will be aware that DPTAC publishes guidance and statements, carries out research into Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: We are, of course, on disabled people’s experiences, promotes accessible Amendment 31. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. transport and solutions, and develops training. Who will do this in future and where will the funding come Amendment 31 withdrawn. from? I will give one example. The DPTAC Olympic working group has been working closely with the Amendment 32 not moved. delivery authorities on an accessible transport system for the Olympic and Paralympic Games in 2012. Why Amendment 33 is it imperative that this should be changed now? Big strides have been made over the past decade towards Moved by Lord McKenzie of Luton more accessible public transport. Rights of access to 33: Schedule 1, page 16, line 26, leave out “Disability Living public transport are in place, along with end dates for Allowance Advisory Board.” the accessibility of all buses, coaches and trains, and a new EU directive on access to air travel for disabled Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I shall also people. speak to Amendment 34. These two amendments start However, the Royal Association for Disability and life as probing amendments. They in effect seek further Rehabilitation contends that a major investment in information about the proposed demise of the Disabled accessible transport has not yet been matched by a Persons Transport Advisory Committee and the Disability major increase in disabled people’s confidence in getting Living Allowance Advisory Board. For the former, the out and about. It states that there remains a huge October 2010 announcement merely recorded that the amount of awareness-raising to be done and some 1313 Public Bodies Bill [HL][11 JANUARY 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 1314 gaps in the regulatory framework to be plugged, for specifically to see that they maintain the principles of example around taxes. It states that, despite considerable a universal benefit that recognises the additional cost progress, the building blocks are not fully in place to of living for someone with a disability and supports deliver a truly integrated system that guarantees those who can work as well as those who cannot, and independent, safe mobility. Such a system is vital for that disabled people are fully involved in the design of ensuring that disabled people have proper access to the gateway. We accept that the Government have services and jobs. RADAR acknowledges that DPTAC made clear that they accept their obligations under the has greatly influenced progress to date and that there UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities is a great need for its role in future. The loss of an to consult disabled people in the design and monitoring independent voice will need considerable justification of decisions and policies affecting disabled people. by the Minister if we are not to return to this on However, the removal of the mobility component Report. of the DLA for people living in residential care has The Disability Living Allowance Advisory Board increased apprehension in the disabled community was set up in 1991—again by a Conservative Government. that the thrust of policy has more to do with budget Its statutory role is to give advice on request to the cuts than with the modernisation of support for disabled Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, to advise people. Removing this disability component will have medical professionals working for the DWP on cases a huge and regressive impact on the independence of as and when requested, and to produce annual reports. thousands of disabled people, with many left unable to The board draws members from across the health and afford to leave their homes and denied the independence social care field and must include at least six disabled that most people take for granted. people. The Government’s justification for its demise Appropriate advice from the advisory board on this is that they now have available to them a number of proposal would have made it abundantly clear up sources of advice, including medical practitioners and front the damage that it would inflict. Promise of a experts in the disability field such as Equality 2025. full consultation after the announcement and before We acknowledge that. They suggest that the board has implementation will not do much to allay the fears of not been commissioned to provide any advice since some 80,000 people whose lives will be impaired if this November 2008 and that this position is likely to proceeds. If the advisory board is to go, what will continue. One presumes on this basis that the board is replace it? How will the independent knowledge and not being consulted on reform of the DLA. expertise of disabled people and others be systematically As we know, the Government propose to introduce brought to bear in shaping and monitoring government the replacement to the DLA—the personal independence policy. I beg to move. payment—in 2013-14, and will start with a reassessment of the working age case load. It is proposed that there Baroness Turner of Camden: My Lords, I support will be no automatic entitlement to the PIP, and each my noble friend’s amendments and speak as someone case will be looked at individually to consider the with recent experience of the situation. I was disabled impact of the impairment or health condition. Key to for six months and realised in that time how difficult the benefit will be an objective assessment of individual life can be if you do not have mobility. It is often need, which is being developed in collaboration with a difficult to move outside your own front door, to do group of independent specialists in health, social care your shopping, or to come to this place, which I like to and disability, including disabled people. Does not this do. You rely entirely on the services available to enable description fit the Disability Living Allowance Advisory you to go outside your front door. Unless there is a Board? Are you not in danger of removing it from the body to see that the facilities you need are available, scene at the very point when its expertise might be many disabled people will simply be prisoners in their brought to bear in aid of government policy? own homes. It is accepted that the Government have sought to This is an increasing problem, because, as we get involve a wide range of individuals and organisations older, more of us become disabled. I hope that I am in the consultation, and that is how it should be, not permanently disabled, but I do not know whether although the Minister might explain why the consultation I will be. It is certainly a difficult life. It is no longer period is shorter than the recommended 12 weeks and possible to pop round to the shops or to post a letter. included the Christmas and new year breaks. Although You are entirely dependent on the support provided by we hold no particular brief for the board—it might other people. I am fortunate in that I have some very perhaps be refreshed rather than terminated—we are good neighbours and some very good friends, but not entitled to ask the Government what mechanisms they everyone is in that situation. There is no doubt that an will put in place to ensure that disabled people and increasing number of people can find themselves simply experts working in health and social care can monitor unable to move outside their front door. the implementation of the new arrangements and We need to maintain bodies of the kind that is provide independent advice to ensure that the descriptors referred to here to ensure that the facilities that are are accurate and relevant, that the process will be fair available are maintained, because a lot of them are for disabled people, and that assessments are carried provided by local authorities and, as we all know if we out by appropriately qualified individuals with capable have read some of the material issued by the Government, and confident decision-makers—in other words, learning local authorities will have their financial resources cut. the lessons of the ESA. Will they be able to maintain some of the excellent Now is not the time for a detailed debate on the services that exist in many places? We want to ensure proposals to reform the DLA other than to say that that the services that we have are available and are we will examine the detail of the final proposals improved so that many people are not simply unable 1315 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 1316

[BARONESS TURNER OF CAMDEN] Given that these are advisory committees made up of to utilise services that ought to be available because people with disability, rather than people who might the finance is not there. What will be done if those two describe themselves as experts in matters of disability, bodies disappear? They should not disappear. It is how will the Minister ensure that the voices of people evident that they have done a lot of work already to such as my noble friend Lady Turner, who spoke of maintain services. We want the services to be improved. her own experience of being disabled, are heard and Please keep them and ensure that they are available that people’s experiences of the transport system in to us. relation to the disability living allowance are properly heard by Ministers as they make their decisions? 4.30 pm More specifically, I note that the Disabled Persons Lord Newton of Braintree: My Lords, I had not Transport Advisory Committee has as its aim that, thought of declaring my disability as an interest but, “disabled people should have the same access to transport as in view of what the noble Baroness has said, perhaps I everybody else”. had better. I certainly sympathise with some of the On its website, it says: points that she has made. “We want this to happen by 2020”. However, I had been going to declare two other Why not let it run on until 2020, when it thinks that it interests in a speech which I do not think will count on might have achieved its aim? Why not give it that the McNally scorecard, partly because it is not related target and that very clear end date? The chair of the to his department and partly because it will be as committee, Dai Powell, in response to the announcement neutral as I can possibly make it. One interest is that I by the Government that, under the Bill, DPTAC would must have been the Minister responsible for disabled be abolished, said: people at the time when DPTAC was established—albeit “I and the Committee consider there is still so much to be not by what was then the DHSS, or the DSS; I have done, the transport system is still inaccessible to many people, forgotten which. I was certainly the Minister responsible, and we have more work to do with our stakeholders (not least the as Secretary of State, for creating the disability living Olympic Delivery Authority)”. allowance in its current form and therefore for establishing If the Minister is not willing to be as generous as the advisory committee. I do not regard either of 2020, would it not be sensible at least to be clear, here those points as an argument for me to defend the and now, that he will not use the powers that he is status quo without regard to what has happened in the seeking in the Bill to abolish DPTAC until after the intervening period, but it clearly gives me an interest Olympics? Then at least it could continue the good in the matter. work that it is doing with the ODA to ensure that the I am bound to express some caution, particularly in Games and the Paralympic Games are successful and respect of the Disability Living Allowance Advisory accessible for people with disabilities. Board, when I am told that one reason why it is Finally, in respect of the Disability Living Allowance thought to be no longer needed is that its function is to Advisory Board, clearly the Minister shares our concerns give advice only when asked for by the Secretary of that consultation is important and has been consulting State, so that when the Secretary of State decides that over the changes to disability living allowance to create he does not want the advice—which may well be the new personal independence payment. However, is because he knows what he is going to get but he does the normal, statutory consultation process enough? Is not want it—it should become redundant. There appears he getting consistent expert advice from people with to be a certain amount of circularity about that argument, disability, given how regularly problems around DLA which I hope that my noble friend from the DWP will are in the news? Within the last month we have had the be able to deal with. Public Accounts Committee report on 16 December, As to DPTAC, I understand that some alternative which said that the appeals procedure needs improvement. arrangement is to be made, but no one knows what Already this month we have had reports that the new that will be. I hope that we can be told today but, if payment may be in breach of people’s human rights. not, we are back in the situation of the previous Clearly, as we move from one system to another, there debate. As the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, said, are going to be sticking points and difficulties. It all of this would be much easier if the Government would seem sensible for the Minister to seek advice came clean and said, “We need something. It isn’t this, from the advisory board that he has at his disposal to but this is what it is”. What we are being told time try to iron out some of those difficulties as we move after time is, “We don’t need this. We know we need from one system to another. If, after that, he thinks something, but we don’t know what it is”. That is very that he can make a good case for getting rid of the unsatisfactory indeed. board, perhaps he should seek to do so at that point.

Lord Knight of Weymouth: I support the amendments in my name and that of my noble friend Lord McKenzie. Lord Low of Dalston: My Lords, I should like to say There is not much that I want to add to the excellent a few words about these two amendments. In so doing, case made by my noble friend. In some ways, I want to I declare my interest as a recipient of disability living echo the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Newton. allowance. The noble Baroness, Lady Wilkins, had These are two advisory bodies affecting disabled people very much hoped to be present to speak to these and there are some fairly standard questions about amendments this afternoon but, sadly, she is not well both of them that it would be useful for the Minister and very much regrets that she cannot be here. However, to answer. How are the bodies being replaced? How she has asked me to say that she would like to be much money, if any, is being saved by their abolition? associated with my remarks. 1317 Public Bodies Bill [HL][11 JANUARY 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 1318

The Disability Living Allowance Advisory Board and characteristics of transport industries, it has been seems already to have disappeared. Its website has able to win over those in that sector who might otherwise been removed and the telephone numbers associated have been resistant to change and it has ensured that with it are now being answered by other DWP staff. the transport needs of disabled people are better met. This might be thought to be jumping the gun somewhat. For example, features that we now take for granted on DLA, as we know, helps many thousands of disabled buses today, such as colour-contrasted handrails, bell people with the higher cost of living as a disabled pushes that can be reached by passengers in wheelchairs, person, but, as we have heard, the Government have clear information displays and so on, were all introduced announced that they wish to make significant changes as a result of the work of the committee. The DPTAC to the benefit. The June emergency Budget announced spec, as it came to be known, was a standard accessibility plans to cut working-age DLA expenditure and case specification for the bus industry and to this day load by 20 per cent. This would represent well over remains a central part of the Public Service Vehicles 360,000 disabled people aged 16 to 64 losing their Accessibility Regulations. disability living allowance. The Government opened a Of course, one cannot make a case for retaining a formal consultation on this proposal in December, but body on the basis of past glories alone, but in recent have indicated that they are considering extending the years the Department for Transport has, I am sorry to changes to children and to people over 65, potentially say, lost its focus on transport and disability issues, as affecting many more thousands of disabled people witnessed by the complacent attitude that it has adopted and their families. However, the consultation is full of towards the development of so-called shared surface inaccuracies. One example is the repeated claim that schemes, in which pedestrians are expected to take there is no process to check that awards remain correct, their life in their hands and mingle indistinguishably but the DWP can require a review with an independent with motorised traffic as all pavements and security medical adviser of any DLA award at any time. The barriers are dismantled. This has come about as a Disability Living Allowance Advisory Board would, result of the closure of the specialist unit in the of course, have been able to advise the department on department, which had for 20 years led on these policy this issue, had it been asked. issues and provided secretariat support to DPTAC. The October spending review also made it clear that the Government want to end mobility payments 4.45 pm to disabled people in residential care. This has been The loss of DPTAC would be a further retrograde particularly controversial. Not enough detail is yet step. Rather than looking at abolishing the committee, available on this proposal, but the DWP has already the Government should recognise that DPTAC is a had to recalculate its figures on how many disabled model that should be extended to other departments. people will be affected. Originally, the Government It was one of the first bodies representing disabled suggested that it would be about 50,000 people, but people to require that at least 50 per cent of its they now suggest that it will mean 80,000 disabled members were themselves disabled. In its press release, children, adults and pensioners losing benefit. One the department has indicated that it will put in place might have thought that, in the context of such significant measures to ensure that the needs of disabled people DLA reform, an independent expert advisory body continue to be understood and represented. However, would have been useful to the Government and could as other speakers have said, there is no detail on how have helped to ensure that reform was effective. Instead, that will be achieved. Like others, I very much hope it is apparent that the Government made their DLA that we may hear a lot more on this from the Minister pledges without expert support or full consideration today. of the impact. An adequately resourced DLA advisory However, I have to say that what little has leaked board properly involved in policy development could out so far is not encouraging. In a recent meeting on a have saved the Government some red faces. Axing different matter with representatives from the disability the body risks undermining the Government’s ability sector, the Transport Minister, Norman Baker, indicated to understand the benefit and provides ammunition to that he would be looking to appoint a single disability those who suggest that the Government’s plans are representative to his bus advisory group. The needs of unfair. The inaccurate statements and the need to disabled people—the blind, the deaf and those with revise figures on the numbers of people affected only mobility difficulties—are so diverse that a single individual add weight to the belief that quango reform has been cannot possibility represent the interests of disabled botched, as the Public Accounts Committee has suggested. people as a whole. If this is the kind of approach that The Minister for Disabled People has now convened, the department has in mind, it is clear that it has learnt as we have heard, a new expert panel to help to design nothing and has understood nothing and that the a different DLA assessment procedure and to facilitate interests of disabled people will not be well served. a new stakeholder group on DLA reform more generally. DPTAC is not a costly body. Payments for members I believe that the work of these groups could have been were introduced only in the past year. The overheads informed, if not led, by the advisory board, possibly, of the committee are relatively modest. They include as has been suggested, in a revised form, and I hope the salary costs of around four DfT officials, payments that the Government will reconsider abolition. to members and out-of-pocket expenses, and some On Amendment 34, DPTAC has a strong record of admin costs, such as stationery. The committee staff bringing about change in a considered and measured are located in the DfT. There are no other property way. Its influence can be seen across all forms of overheads. This is not the kind of quango that commands transport, from bus design specifications to guidance a multimillion pound budget. The financial savings for the aviation industry. By recognising the constraints that will be made by abolishing it will not be significant 1319 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 1320

[LORD LOW OF DALSTON] useful life. Things have moved on since 1991 and the if one contrasts that with the negative impact on the Public Bodies Bill will allow the Government to reflect mobility and transport needs of disabled people that those changes by abolishing this body. the abolition of the committee will have. I hope very much that the Government will think again about its Lord Knight of Weymouth: I am grateful to the abolition. noble Lord. Can he tell us how much he is saving by getting rid of it? The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud): My Lords, this Lord Freud: This is not a change being made with group of amendments would remove the Disability any view to making savings because I think that this Living Allowance Advisory Board and the Disabled board does not cost anything at all. I believe the services Persons Transport Advisory Committee from the list of the board members are given on a pro bono basis, of bodies to which the Public Bodies Bill applies. I can for which we have been very grateful. Neither of these see no circumstances in which this would be desirable. are money-saving measures since in money terms these Both these bodies were set up for very good reasons bodies are rather inexpensive sources of advice, but but they no longer reflect the world in which they the point is whether they are a relevant and necessary operate. function in a changed environment. Let me first turn to the Disability Living Allowance Let me turn to the Disabled Persons Transport Advisory Board. The board was established in 1991 to Advisory Committee. The Government’s approach to provide advice to the Secretary of State on matters disability and transport has moved forward significantly relating to disability living allowance and attendance since 1985 when the committee was established and allowance. I am delighted to thank members of the board the important issues of disability equality are now a for the advice that they have provided over the years, core element of departmental policy and delivery. At a which has contributed to policy debate in the department. practical level, although there is still more to be done However, as other noble Lords have pointed out, it about the kind of improvements that still need to be should be noted that the board has not been asked to made—no one would disagree with the points made provide advice since November 2008 by the present or by the noble Baroness, Lady Turner, and the noble the previous Administrations. Lord, Lord Low—nevertheless it is the case that access Medical experts in the department are already providing to all modes of transport has been transformed over the department, including disability living allowance the past two and a half decades. Rather than seeking decision-makers and departmental medical officers, access for disabled people as a specialist topic, transport with medical advice and medical input into policy operators across the sector are now expected to incorporate decisions. When required, the department can obtain their needs into the mainstream of transport planning expert medical advice in specialist medical fields using and delivery. All public bodies have a statutory duty “task and finish” groups. Members of Equality 2025, under the Equality Act 2010 to take equalities issues a public body, are well placed to provide personal into account in their decision-making. Against this insight into the effects of policy initiatives. background, and while recognising the valuable work One of the things that has changed since 1991 is the that the committee has done for the department in creation of the Office for Disability Issues. The fact is areas such as accessibility and mobility policy, there is that it has managed to organise a much wider range of scope to reform the way in which disability advice is channels from disabled people’s organisations and groups delivered to increase flexibility and accountability to which completely changes the environment in which the taxpayer. this advisory body, among others, operates. It is in that The question was raised by a number of noble context that we should look at this step. Lords about what or whether anything replaces the I turn now to a specific point raised by the noble DPTAC advice. We intend to commence a consultation Lord, Lord McKenzie, about the reform of the DLA in the near future on successor arrangements to DPTAC and the involvement of experts in that reform. We in order to ensure that we continue to get the advice have a group of independent specialists in health, that we need, thus improving accountability and flexibility social care and disability, as well as disabled people. and, therefore, value for the taxpayer. It is worth The group includes individuals from a range of professions noting that the policy divisions within the Department such as occupational therapy, psychiatry, physiotherapy, for Transport increasingly seek advice from specific social work, general practice, community psychiatric modal groups. For example, in aviation the department nursing, and representatives from RADAR and Equality tends to use sources of information closer to the 2025. We are pulling in from widespread channels a aviation sector—airlines, airports, the CAA, and so huge variety of relevant expertise. forth. The question of timing was raised by the noble A question was raised by the noble Lords, Lord Lord, Lord Knight, particularly in relation to the McKenzie and Lord Knight, about the length of the Olympics. DPTAC continues to exist until such time consultation period. We did consult widely with disability as it is abolished by order and this is unlikely to occur organisations, letting them know our thinking well in before 2012. Therefore, the Olympic work will carry advance of the publication of the consultation, and on as routine. we will continue to work with and involve them in the The noble Baroness, Lady Turner, raised the point overall process going forward. about whether local authorities would continue to Let me finish my remarks on this particular board. perform their duties in this respect. No local authority This is a classic example of a body that was set up for a should ignore the needs of disabled travellers. Local very good reason, but which has now outlived its authorities are subject to clear equalities duties and, as 1321 Public Bodies Bill [HL][11 JANUARY 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 1322 such, should be actively promoting equality for disabled Lord Freud: I ought to respond to that, especially to people. All transport operators within local authority the creator of the board. The core point is that these areas are subject to provisions under the Equality Act 2010. advisory bodies are rather narrowly focused and we Let me pick up one or two other points. First, are now looking at a much wider set of obligations moving back to DLA and the mobility component, and a much wider capacity. We have the Office for local authority contracts with care homes oblige those Disability Issues, which was never thought of in the care homes to make sure that their clients or inhabitants 1990s. That provides a whole range of channels into have access to doctors, dentists and other local services the community that did not exist. We are talking about and to help residents pursue their independence. That moving from a narrowly focused piece of advice to a is part of the confusion of obligations that we are much wider set of interchanges with the disabled trying to disentangle and will do so under the DLA community. My noble friend was right. This has not reform that we are undertaking. been done for monetary reasons, but to reflect the Secondly, to pick up the point made by the noble world that we live in and to get advice on the broadest Lord, Lord Low, on the replacement of DLA with possible scale in the right way when we need it. PIP, or personal independence payment, about 14,000 people on DLA have never had their claims looked at Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I am grateful since getting the benefit in the period from 1992 to the to all noble Lords who spoke in this short but well present day and around 20 per cent of people on DLA informed debate. I am doubly grateful to the noble have not had any contact with DWP in 10 years. The Lord, Lord Newton. I said when I introduced these reduction in the forecast working age expenditure, amendments that I did not propose to press them which we are looking at in the DLA reform, effectively today and I do not, but he has given me special food brings expenditure in 2014-15 back down to what it for thought when we come to Report. Like the noble was in 2009-10. We are talking about a cut in a Lord, Lord Newton, I was not totally convinced by projection, not an absolute cut. the Minister’s response although as ever he did a I close with our reason to abolish DPTAC. The sterling job trying to hold the government line. Secretary of State for Transport and his department To summarise the contributions of all noble Lords will continue to ensure that transport policies promote other than the Minister, I say that they recognised the equality. We will also, as I said, be taking forward a importance of hearing the voices of disabled people in consultative process on successor arrangements to the these situations and not just a lone voice—a point committee in the coming months. As part of that made by the noble Lord, Lord Low. We need to hear process, the Department for Transport will of course about the full range of issues that disabled people face. publish the full impact assessment. Given that, I ask We heard about the importance of an independent the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, not to press the voice, as the noble Lord, Lord Newton, said—not just amendment. speaking when you are spoken to and asked a question. There needs to be an independent means for people to 5pm input. I agree with that point about not just responding Lord Newton of Braintree: Before the noble Lord when you are asked a question. responds, I do not want to make too much trouble, but Each noble Lord who spoke did so from a particular I must say that I did not find that terribly persuasive. I standpoint. My noble friend Lady Turner spoke of can well understand that the Secretary of State did not her own challenges with mobility in recent times. She wish to seek the advice of the Disability Living Allowance raised the issue of local authorities and the Minister Advisory Board on the proposals that have just been reminded us of the equality duties imposed on local put forward because he would have got a major flea in authorities. We have to recognise that the financial his ear. I do not want to enter into that argument, constraints currently imposed on local authorities are which is not for today, but there is serious concern of draconian—the worst they have faced for decades. the kind that various noble Lords have alluded to in That provides them with challenges. the debate and that would have been reflected. The I was not aware that the noble Lord, Lord Newton, easiest way of not having that reflected is to say that was the creator of the DLA and DPTAC that we are you do not need the body that gives you that type of discussing today. To date, before his Government’s advice. Having been a Minister myself, I have to say measures, they have stood the test of time. We are not that I have an unduly cynical view of what the real opposed to a recasting of DLA. I mentioned in my motivation may be, but it is very unreasonable of me presentation the sort of issues we look to come out of to say that. the review. My noble friend Lord Knight of Weymouth On DPTAC and the two bodies taken together, if I raised some important issues. On the timing, I am hear the Minister right, he is a very self-sacrificial delighted that DPTAC will at least outlast the 2012 man. He is saying that these bodies cost nothing, do Olympic Games. That is to be welcomed. no harm and we are going to have to spend money to The other general theme on which all noble Lords get advice somewhere else, presumably also at nil cost. focused was that of knowing, if you are going to get I am bound to say that if I were one of his ministerial rid of something, what is going in its place. We had colleagues, certainly in the Government in which I one veil lifted this afternoon in relation to the advisory served, I would have said, “Why do you want to stir up board and the engagement on the recasting of DLA, all this trouble? Why put off all these people who have although the noble Lord, Lord Low, rightly pointed been giving their services pro bono in order to spend out some of the problems with the consultation. If the time and trouble consulting about how to replace their input the Government are now getting is, as they efforts? It does not make sense”. I rest my case. argue, so important, valuable and different that it 1323 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 1324

[LORD MCKENZIE OF LUTON] justification for addressing those issues specifically. displaces the advisory board and DPTAC, how have Even if they wish to make the FSA a leaner and more they ended up with this huge challenge around the cost-effective body, as they have done and to which the mobility component of DLA and the need to revisit FSA has responded very well, cost-cutting is not the and revise the numbers? There is an inconsistency in point here. It would seem that the FSA can be changed the Minister’s argument. and its powers taken away without recourse to Parliament, Prompted by the question on cost of my noble without consultation and without this Bill. friend Lord Knight, the noble Lord, Lord Newton, Why is the FSA not included in this Bill? I was said that if something costs nothing then we do not tempted to table an amendment for all the non- need to spend money on putting something in its departmental government bodies that are not included place. We can get advice for free so why change it? I in this Bill just to try to make sense of the Bill, and I acknowledge the role of the ODI and the new engagement have not ruled out that idea. For example, we will that it has brought to the whole issue of dealing with address later the other health bodies that are included disabled people and their challenges. However, that in in this Bill: the HFEA and the HTA. They were itself is not a reason for doing away with these bodies, created with a similar motivation to that behind the particularly DPTAC. I was not aware of the issue Food Standards Agency—the need to have an arm’s-length raised by the noble Lord, Lord Low, about the body independent of government that could be trusted Department for Transport having just one person by the public to give good advice. along to their bus advisory board. How can that one So far, the passage of this Bill has resembled a person possibly represent the full range of issues faced familiar song that we may all know, “The Hokey by disabled people needing to access public transport Cokey”. You put Channel 4 or Ofcom in the Bill, then and buses in particular? you take them out of the Bill—or you think about There are some issues there that the Government it—and maybe shake them all about a bit. In the case need to be clearer on if we are not to take forward at of the recent government amendments on the Criminal least one of these amendments on Report. For the Procedure Rule Committee, and a host of the other time being, I beg leave to withdraw Amendment 33 judicial-sounding bodies, they are out, but why? Perhaps but we need to look at the record of this debate and we should rename this Bill the Hokey Cokey Bill. think seriously about what we will do on Report. Since tabling this amendment, the Public Administration Amendment 33 withdrawn. Select Committee in another place has very obligingly published, Smaller Government: Shrinking the Quango Amendments 34 to 36 not moved. State. I had intended to use the Treasury’s admirable publication, Reforming Arm’s Length Bodies, and the Amendment 36A Institute for Government’s document, Read Before Moved by Baroness Thornton Burning, as a theme for this discussion, because both contain a sensible description of the different kinds of 36A: Schedule 1, page 16, line 30, at end insert— arm’s-length bodies, what they do and how they might “Food Standards Agency.” be reviewed and reformed. However, I think that they Baroness Thornton: I realise that putting down an have been overtaken by the admirable report from the amendment to add something to this hotchpotch Bill committee under Mr Bernard Jenkin MP about the may seem perverse in the extreme but assure the dog’s breakfast that is not just this Bill but the whole House that there is method in my madness. This is a process of reforming arm’s-length bodies. probing amendment, designed to achieve what we To go back to basics, the coalition agreement merely seem to have signally failed to achieve so far with this said: Bill: that is, to gain some understanding of the rationale, “We will reduce the number and cost of quangos”. the explanation or the philosophy that lies behind the I have to say that my own Government’s policy was arm’s-length institutions that are included in the Bill along the same lines. The Reforming Arm’s Length and those that are not. I use the Food Standards Bodies document outlined how to do this in an orderly Agency as an example of a body that is not in the Bill fashion over a period of time and save money in the but about which reform is being proposed. course of doing that. So the Government started a The Food Standards Agency, is, as it says on its cost-reduction exercise. Shortly after the election, website, they undertook to review public bodies sponsored by “an independent Government department set up by an Act of departments, including executive agencies. The stated Parliament in 2000 to protect the public’s health and consumer aim of the review was primarily to increase the interests in relation to food”. accountability of government. To achieve this, the What has already been announced is that some of its review attempted to indentify functions that could be functions will be taken away and given to Defra, and transferred from public bodies to central departments. nutrition and dietary health will be moved back to the The Government argued that Ministers could then Department of Health. That is a very retrograde step be directly responsible for those activities and could be in the view of many people concerned with diet and held to account by Parliament for the discharge of health. I think we can safely say that the Food Standards those activities. Indeed, Francis Maude, the Minister Agency was specifically formed after the BSE food in the Cabinet Office—I particularly like this bit—said: scandals to try to re-establish public confidence in “I have led an intensive review into public bodies, subjecting food advice by creating an arm’s-length body and an each to four tests. The first test was existential and asked, does the independent organisation. If the Government wish to body need to exist and do its functions need to be carried out at change that fundamentally, they have to have some all?”.—[Official Report, Commons, 14/10/10; col. 505.] 1325 Public Bodies Bill [HL][11 JANUARY 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 1326

I think that existential is a really good word to use recommend that the Cabinet Office publish details on how the in the process of these discussions. Those tests were tests have been applied to all public bodies that are still under whether, review, so we can ensure that in future these tests are applied consistently. “a precise technical operation needs to be performed to fulfil a The lack of consultation and inconsistent application of the ministerial mandate”. tests, which are themselves confusing”— The second area was, I would agree with that— “where it may be right to delegate power to an independent body “have led us to conclude that there was no coherent and consistent … when there is a need for politically impartial decisions”. process for reviewing public bodies”. The third area was, I return to the Food Standards Agency, which I “where there is likely to be a need for independent action … when would not wish to include in this Bill. Whether or not facts need to be transparently determined”. I proceed to add a whole host of other bodies into the The fourth area, of course, was the existential test. Bill in a desperate attempt to understand the rationale Added to that, we have another test, which appeared is dependent on the Minister’s explanation. I would slightly late in the day: transparency. According to the really appreciate him addressing the very important report: issues that are raised in this report—and this is the “The Ministry of Justice has retained bodies on the grounds first opportunity we have had to say this. I would like of ‘transparency’”, an explanation of the broader implications that this so we know now that we have at least four or five tests report has for the Bill. Obviously, it involves not just that the Government have said need to be applied to the Food Standards Agency but many, many bodies. arm’s-length bodies. Finally, we on these Benches are not opposed to The report goes on to say: modernising arm’s-length bodies. Indeed, in March “It is also unclear whether all three of the tests the Government last year we published a document about the reform set were necessary in determining whether a function should of arm’s-length bodies that said that we intended to remain at arm’s length from Government”. reduce their number by 123 and to save money by The report adds that the Institute for Government, doing so. However, we intended to do it in an orderly fashion with consistent and consistently applied criteria. “during its research for its report, Read Before Burning, conducted its own evaluation of public bodies and the level of independence This Government have not done that, and we need an they need to discharge their functions properly. Their evidence explanation of what they intend to do next. I beg to states that: The key issue for deciding to put a function at arm’s move. length is the degree of independence from day-to-day ministerial intervention needed to enable the body to command public confidence that it can perform its function in the public interest”. Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Thornton for raising three That test applies completely to the FSA, and indeed very substantive matters with this amendment: first, to several bodies that are included in this Bill. We what is to happen to the FSA; secondly, the process by therefore have the importance of the independence which the Government have undertaken this review; test. and, thirdly—coming back to the debate on the first The additional test that is brought to bear is that of group of amendments—the architecture of the Bill. value for money. As well as the four or five tests that I I was the Department of Health Minister who, with have already outlined, the Select Committee says that the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, as the Defra Minister, the Government, took through the legislation that created the Food “are silent on a range of other issues, such as the implication of Standards Agency. The noble Lord, Lord Newton, changes on the wider public policy framework, value for money, and I are singing off the same hymn sheet here. I or current performance of organisations”. remind the noble Lord that the reason for this was that The report concludes: there was a great deal of public distrust, it would be “The Government did not consult properly on these proposals. fair to say, arising out of the BSE issue along with When undertaking such a fundamental review of the machinery some concern about the advice that the relevant of government it is desirable and sensible to do so”. government departments had been giving to the public. Our own Merits Committee did, as I recall, agree with Therefore, the decision was taken to create an independent that. agency sponsored not by Defra but by the Department The report goes on to say that the Government do of Health. not apply the tests consistently and have declined, in Overall, that agency has worked very well indeed. I some cases, pay particular tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, “to provide an explanation for why it intends to retain a body”. and to Mr Geoffrey Podger, the first chair and chief It seems to me that asking for an explanation of executive of the FSA—and, indeed, to their successors— why the Food Standards Agency is not included in this for doing what I think has been an outstanding job. It Bill is exactly the point of this Select Committee has certainly advanced the credibility of the advice report. The Government have been inconsistent about that that body gives to the public and, importantly, what is in the Bill, what is out of the Bill, and what has also enhanced the credibility of the British food tests should be applied to the bodies that they intend industry. I therefore have some reservations about the to keep and to reform. The conclusion of this very changes that are now being proposed to the FSA. I critical report says: understand that there will be a transfer of some of its “We are not convinced that the Government has applied its responsibilities to the Department of Health. I must tests consistently. Neither can we find any evidence to suggest that declare my interests in relation to the health service it took any steps to ensure a uniform approach was taken. We and to public health as they are recorded in the 1327 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 1328

[LORD HUNT OF KINGS HEATH] Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern. We are due a Register. The FSA has a tremendous reputation and, Committee day next week when, no doubt, we will in the Government’s place, I would hesitate before hear when further Committee days are to take place. I making substantive changes. hope that in a fairly short time the Government will be However, the second point raised by my noble able to make a little clearer their sense of where they friend relates to the rationale for the Government’s are on the Bill and whether they are prepared to make approach both to those bodies that are contained in the kind of changes to its construct that would reassure the Bill and those that are not. It is still not clear to noble Lords considerably. many noble Lords what the rationale is. This is a good opportunity for the Minister, who, as noble Lords Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My Lords, I thank the have already remarked, has been very helpful to the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, for tabling this House, to explain some more about the rationale for amendment. I know that she has done so with good the bodies contained in the Bill and those that are not, intentions but we have enough on our plate without even where those that are not are actually to have adding an extra dish to the menu. I thank the noble substantive changes made to them. Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, for his recommendation The noble Lord, Lord Taylor, will be a little tired of to see “The Mikado”. I saw it when it was previously having Select Committee reports quoted back to him on at the Coliseum. In fact, I have tickets. Should time because it would be fair to say that all of the Select allow, I hope to see it in revival. Committees that have so far looked at the Bill and at As your Lordships are aware, the Public Bodies Bill the review undertaken by the Government have been exists to take forward the review of public bodies not exactly complimentary. The noble Lord, Lord undertaken across the Government in 2010 to enable Taylor, has to answer the central charge of the Public changes to be made. I acknowledge the report of the Administration Select Committee, chaired by Mr Bernard Select Committee produced by another place and no Jenkin, which said: doubt we will be replying to that report in due course. “This review was poorly managed … no meaningful consultation, However tempting it might be, I do not want to use the tests the review used were not clearly defined and the Cabinet this debate as an opportunity for expanding on arguments Office failed to establish a proper procedure for departments to that the Government will bring forward in their discussions follow”. with that committee. We are negotiating with the Apart from rejecting the Select Committee’s report opposition Front Bench and the Select Committees of out of hand, the Government have been rather silent your Lordships’ House to try to improve the Bill. It is in responding so far. We are entitled to some comment interesting that, as the noble Baroness said, there is a on the review process itself. determination across the House to ensure that we have a public bodies sector that is fit for purpose. My noble friend Lady Thornton referred to the Bill as being the “Hokey Cokey Bill”. I think its more Perhaps I may address the changes that have occurred Gilbertian myself. The noble Lord, Lord Taylor has a within the Food Standards Agency in the context of little list. In fact it is a very big list that is gradually the recent history of the department. The previous becoming smaller. I note that the Jonathan Miller Government announced in their public health White production of “The Mikado” is back at the Coliseum Paper, published shortly before the election, that they yet again. The noble Lord might take care and reflect would bring dietary health and nutrition away from by going to see it. the FSA into the Department of Health. That is the background against which, under the new Government It brings us back to the architecture of the Bill. In on 20 July 2010, the Department of Health announced an earlier debate the noble Lord, Lord Lester, raised its decision to retain the Food Standards Agency as an the question of Amendment 175, which is consequential independent regulator, while transferring some of its on the paving Amendment 1 that the House passed. functions to the Department of Health and Defra. I That is a very important amendment because it sets shall shortly put those into the context of the size of very clearly the restrictions on ministerial powers to be the organisation. These changes are non-statutory in used in the Act. If, as a result of the discussions that I nature and do not therefore require the use of the know that his officials are having with noble Lord, Public Bodies Bill, or any another legislative vehicle, Lord Lester, tomorrow and other discussions, the to bring them into effect. Government were able to accept the principle of The proposed changes to the role of the FSA are Amendment 175, while making it clear that they do designed to contribute to the Government’s objectives not intend to reverse this in the other place, then we to improve efficiency and are paramount to the key would make more progress. priority of improving the health of the nation by There are other substantive issues in relation to creating a public health service. To achieve this coherence, the architecture. I have already mentioned the use of some policy-based functions are to be brought in-house the supra-affirmative procedure and the deletion of to give a more co-ordinated approach on health and Schedule 7. Some reassurance that public consultation food issues. These changes affect approximately 5 per will take place when it is proposed to deal with any of cent of the 2,000 staff employed by the Food Standards the bodies in this order would go some considerable Agency. About 25 labelling policy posts will move to way to reassuring noble Lords. In the absence of the Defra and 85 nutrition policy posts will move to the House understanding what changes the Government Department of Health. These proposed changes reflect are prepared to make to the architecture, we go inevitably the Department of Health’s desire to bring together through these bodies one by one and, in a sense, in a all the policy levers to enable it to deliver a coherent vacuum—a point made earlier by the noble and learned public health strategy. This will allow the FSA to focus 1329 Public Bodies Bill [HL][11 JANUARY 2011] Banking: Bonuses 1330 on its key core remit of food safety underpinned by the banks sign up to the code of practice on taxation. scientific expertise. It has been mentioned that the The previous Government created the code in a flourish noble Lord, Lord Krebs, in establishing the Food of press releases, but we discovered that only four out Standards Agency, provided a foundation of science of Britain’s 15 main banks had actually signed up to it. which has greatly benefited that organisation. The This coalition Government have made sure that every proposed changes will enable government food policy one of those 15 banks signs up. We are legislating in to be communicated and delivered in a coherent this year’s Finance Bill for tough anti-avoidance measures and consistent manner. The Department of Health, directed at some of the practices in the financial Defra and the FSA—we must not forget that the services sector that no one had previously attempted Food Standards Agency is classified as a government to stop. department—will work together to ensure that this Specifically on remuneration and bonuses, on 1 January structure protects consumer interests, reinforces efforts this year we introduced the most stringent code of to improve the public’s health and supports a competitive practice of any financial centre in the world. There food industry. will be for the first time a strict limit on the amount of I acknowledge that the last thing the noble Baroness bonus payable in upfront cash. There will be a requirement seeks is the extinction of the Food Standards Agency. that 50 per cent of bonuses are paid in shares or other On the basis of the assurances I have given, I hope non-cash instruments, which bank employees will not that she will feel able to withdraw the amendment. be allowed to sell on for an appropriate period. Guaranteed bonuses will become the exception and Baroness Thornton: I thank the Minister for that not the rule. Crucially, the new bonus code has been Answer. I assure him that we are in agreement about significantly extended. It will cover payments and not adding the FSA to the Bill. I will read his remarks bonuses at 2,500 firms, while the code that we inherited and consider how we might usefully take forward the covered pay and bonuses at only 25 individual financial process of injecting coherence into this modernisation. firms. However, I shall not do so now. Therefore, I beg leave When it comes to the Royal Bank of Scotland, I am to withdraw the amendment. having to deal with the thoroughly inadequate contract negotiated by the previous Cabinet, which this House Amendment 36A withdrawn. is probably not aware puts no constraints at all on House resumed. RBS’s bonuses this year. Indeed, it explicitly encourages it to pay bonuses in line with market rules. But despite this we have made it clear that RBS will have a smaller Banking: Bonuses bonus pool than last year and should be a back-marker Statement in the industry, instead of the front-runner that it once was. 5.34 pm In the coming weeks all the banks will be announcing The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord their pay and bonuses for this year. I can confirm that Sassoon): My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will we are now in discussion with the banks to see whether now repeat in the form of a Statement the response we can reach a new settlement where the banks pay given by my right honourable friend the Chancellor of smaller bonuses than they would otherwise have done, the Exchequer in another place. The Statement is as are more transparent about those that they do pay, follows: make a greater contribution to local communities and “Mr Speaker, we inherited from the previous the regional economy, treat customers fairly and, above Government a failed system of banking regulation all, lend materially and verifiably more than they were and a situation where billions of pounds had been planning to the businesses of Britain, especially the provided to bail out bankers with nothing demanded small businesses, so that they can grow and create jobs in return. It was a something-for-nothing deal that this year. That is what a new settlement with the banks rightly left the British people seething with anger. Let looks like—one where they lend to the British economy, me explain what we are doing to change this. contribute to the British Exchequer and provide jobs First, we are replacing the disastrous tripartite system for the British people, where they are responsible on for regulating banks established in 1997. Instead, our pay and bonuses and where Britain can be the world plan is to put the Bank of England clearly in charge. centre of a properly regulated and internationally Secondly, we have created the Independent Commission competitive financial services industry. If the banks on Banking to review the structure of the banking cannot commit to that, I have made it clear to them sector and address the issue of banks that are too big that nothing is off the table. I will keep Parliament to fail—an issue that the previous Government’s failure informed of our discussions and, if the Opposition to address brought this country’s economy to its knees. who created this banking mess have a better idea, let The commission will report this autumn. Thirdly, we us hear it”. have introduced a permanent levy on the banks in the My Lords, that concludes the Statement. face of opposition from the previous Government. This new banking tax started coming into effect last 5.38 pm week and once fully operational will raise £2.5 billion each and every year—£8.8 billion over this Parliament. Lord Eatwell: My Lords, I am most grateful to the We are looking at the IMF’s proposed financial activities noble Lord for repeating as a Statement the Chancellor’s tax and we will work with international partners to reply to an Urgent Question asked by my right honourable secure agreement. Fourthly, we have demanded that friend Alan Johnson in another place, although it is 1331 Banking: Bonuses[LORDS] Banking: Bonuses 1332

[LORD EATWELL] 5.43 pm notable that the Chancellor’s Answer had very little to Lord Sassoon: My Lords, I am disappointed in the do with the Question asked, which was about the response and the questions that we have just heard. Government’s view on the level of bonuses to be paid My right honourable friend the Chancellor has made in the current round. it clear that he is concentrating on what is really Is the noble Lord aware that the Government’s cut important: the big picture issue of getting rid of the in taxation of the banks and the Chancellor’s rather former system of financial regulation, which was proven obvious evasion of the substance of the Urgent Question to have failed in the crisis. We are making fundamental will be received in the country with a mixture of changes to that. As I explained in repeating the Statement, despair and indignation, but not with any surprise? there are ongoing discussions about what really matters, There will be despair because it was the reckless behaviour which is about treating customers fairly, making sure of the banks and others in the financial sector that that lending is materially and verifiably more than the imposed economic hardship, even misery, on millions banks would otherwise be planning to lend and, in of British people, particularly the most vulnerable. that context, ensuring that the banks pay smaller Does he agree with the Financial Services Authority bonuses than they otherwise would have done. It is that the bonus policies of the banks encouraged that precisely the switch from bonuses towards lending, reckless behaviour? Would he agree that the payment which the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, is asking for, that of large bonuses at this time is morally indefensible? we are concentrating on now. Of course, there are lots of things in economic life that In answer to the noble Lord’s questions about are morally indefensible, but the payment of large taxation, far from introducing any cut in tax on banks, bonuses now is not just immoral but also against the we have introduced a permanent levy rather than a national economic interest. That is why despair will be one-year levy—a levy that raises in each individual laced with indignation. year more than the previous Government’s one-off I believe that no one in Britain objects to the view bonus tax did. Even the previous Chancellor, Alistair that those who work hard and take risks with their Darling, admitted that that bonus tax failed to change own money deserve substantial rewards, but would the bankers’ behaviour, whereas the bank levy that this noble Lord agree that the profitability of the banks Government have introduced reflects the relative risk over the past year is due less to hard work and more to in different banks’ balance sheets. the financial support provided by the Government I am grateful to the noble Lord for rising to the and to the low interest rate policies and other policies challenge about the allowability of bankers’ bonuses of the Bank of England? Is it not the case that the or total remuneration against tax. It is an interesting banks were reckless with our money, then we bailed suggestion. We look at the total package in the round them out and then they hoovered up the funds to pay and I am always grateful for interesting new ideas. themselves bonuses? Would the Minister agree with In respect of taxation of non-domiciled individuals, me that socially responsible banks will be using their whether they are bankers or others, I remind the noble profits to rebuild their balance sheets, strengthening Lord that it was my right honourable friend who, their underlying finances, rather than frittering away when in opposition, first raised the question of non- our money in excessive bonuses? domiciled individuals making a proper contribution Turning to the question of the taxation of bonuses, to tax in this country. We have taken the lead on that. will the Minister tell the House whether the Government The overall priority must be to make sure that the are considering following the practice in the United banks pay a fair share, as we believe they now will. At States, where remuneration in excess of $1 million is the same time, we recognise the need to keep a vibrant not allowable as an expense against corporation tax? banking sector in this country and to keep the UK as a The Chancellor asked for ideas and there is one. centre of global banking, with banks continuing to Members of the House will be aware that in the lend to all businesses, particularly the small and medium- United States there is not a single non-dom, so will the sized businesses in this country. We will continue to Minister tell the House his estimate of the proportion work with our European partners to urge agreement, of bonuses paid here to residents claiming non-dom particularly on a disclosure regime by banding of status? What proportion of bonuses to non-doms is remuneration. We will continue to work with our paid via non-UK jurisdictions? More generally, is the partners on consideration of a financial activities tax. Minister able to tell the House what proportion of The critical thing, as my right honourable friend set gross value added is paid in tax by the financial sector out today, is that the Government are working in a as compared to other major sectors of the economy? thoroughly practical, hands-on way to deliver results Of course, once issues of taxation are raised, the and, in particular, will continue to work with the bankers seek to hold the British people to ransom by banks to make sure that lending to the businesses of claiming that they will simply leave these shores rather this country supports the recovery that this economy than pay their fair share. Will the Minister tell the is on track for. House what proposals Her Majesty’s Government have made to the G7, the G20 or the European Union 5.47 pm for a concerted international policy on financial sector Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay: My Lords, I thank remuneration? the Minister for the Statement. I do not know whether The truly distressing factor about this Statement is he has read it lately, but I have here an excellent that there is really nothing surprising in the Chancellor’s document, The Coalition: Our Programme for Government, reply, other than his flagrant disregard of the heartfelt in which Nick Clegg and David Cameron promised, and legitimate concerns of the British people. “radical plans to reform our broken banking system”. 1333 Banking: Bonuses[11 JANUARY 2011] Banking: Bonuses 1334

Item 1 said on banking: friend the Chancellor are ongoing, with the intention “We will bring forward detailed proposals for robust action to of making sure that bonuses are lower than otherwise tackle unacceptable bonuses in the financial sector … We want they would have been and that lending to British the banking system to serve business, not the other way round”. businesses is materially and verifiably higher than it There is not much sign in the briefing that has been would have been. That is what we want in the context coming from No. 10 and the Treasury that they are also of a vibrant and healthy banking system, which is very aware of those commitments. Can the Minister good not only for this country but for the UK’s global assure us that he will draw those commitments to the competitiveness. attention of the people in the Treasury who are working on these schemes, because frankly the messages that Lord Ryder of Wensum: My Lords, will my noble are coming out are not right when we are trying to do friend tell us whether bankers in New York and Frankfurt a serious negotiation with the banks to improve their are being offered the same type of bonuses as bankers behaviour? in London? Will he further tell us whether the American Specifically on the Royal Bank of Scotland, what and German Governments take the same attitude to possible justification is there for Mr Hester, who is one bonuses as this one? of the highest-paid public sector workers in the country, to get any bonus at all when his bank has missed its Lord Sassoon: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble legally binding mortgage and business lending targets friend Lord Ryder for enabling me to remind noble by a mile? Lords that other Governments are increasingly following the lead of the UK and introducing variations on the Lord Sassoon: My Lords, I am always grateful to measures that we have introduced for the taxation of my noble friend Lord Oakeshott for reminding us of banks. Since the announcement of our bank levy, what is in the coalition agreement, which is always at Germany, France and other countries have followed the heart of what we do. I am sure that my colleagues with similar constructs. It is critical that we make sure in the Treasury will need absolutely no reminder of that, while the UK regime is the toughest interpretation what the coalition agreement says in this area, because among global financial centres of what has been agreed it is precisely because we are guided by the coalition internationally, we seek to work within the framework agreement that we now have a package that, as I have laid down by the Financial Stability Board and endorsed explained, means that 2,500 banks as opposed to by G20 Ministers. Whether it is in relation to the US, 25 are caught by the code. For all their talk, the other European countries or global financial centres, previous Government had not actually brought in any we will continue to work energetically with our partners new remuneration code. We now have one in place. We to secure, as far as is possible, common standards in are continuing, as I said, to urge our European partners this area. to work with us on a common set of banding disclosures. The current discussions are precisely to make sure that Lord Myners: My Lords, in 2009 the Prime Minister bonuses are lower than they would otherwise have said that no bonuses of more than £2,000 should be been and that lending is higher. paid to bankers while banks were in receipt of government In respect of the Royal Bank of Scotland, as I said support. The coalition agreement talked about robust in the Statement, we found ourselves having inherited action and detailed programmes to handle unacceptable a most extraordinary agreement negotiated by the bonuses. On that we have heard nothing at all. When previous Government that put absolutely no restrictions we proposed disclosures about remuneration under on RBS’s payments and bonuses this year. We want to the Walker report, this was supported by both the see RBS now not as a front-runner, which seemed to Conservative and Liberal parties. The Government be where it was encouraged to be under the previous have done nothing to implement the Walker Government’s agreement, but as a back-marker when recommendations. it comes to its bonus payments for this year. The Minister asked for ideas. I will give him four. First, shareholders should be given a clear fiduciary Lord Clinton-Davis: Does the noble Lord recall the responsibility, for which they can be held accountable words of Nick Clegg, who asked whether it did not under law, to take appropriate action to oversee the make one angry that the banks were being allowed to companies in which they have invested their clients’ ride roughshod over our economy and were still handing money. Secondly, banks should not be able to offset out bonuses by the bucketload? Is the Minister satisfied the past losses against current corporation tax liabilities that that situation should continue and that he should while they are in receipt of central government support, issue sanctimonious and tired Statements to the House? which most of our major banks still are through the Does he not feel ashamed of what is happening? special liquidity scheme and the credit guarantee scheme, as a consequence of which very few will pay any Lord Sassoon: My Lords, I am sorry if I will become corporation tax for the foreseeable future. tediously repetitive, but if the questions cover points Thirdly, there should be a charge for the capital that that I thought I had made clearly, I will have to make banks effectively enjoy through the state guarantee. them again. We are taking far more practical and The Bank of England has estimated that this is worth effective action than the previous Government did. We £100 billion. A fair charge for that would be of the have extended very considerably the scope and form of order of £12 billion to £15 billion—the annual charge the disclosures on bonuses that must be made. As to for risk for capital, which the Minister will understand— the quantum, I repeat to the noble Lord, Lord Clinton- rather than the derisory £2.5 billion pounds which Davis, that discussions led by my right honourable ultimately, but not initially, will be raised under the 1335 Banking: Bonuses[LORDS] Banking: Bonuses 1336

[LORD MYNERS] relation to bonuses. We are absolutely not going soft Government’s bank levy proposal. That is a considerably on the banks, which is why, as we speak, discussions smaller amount than was raised under the bank payroll are ongoing to make sure that bonuses this year are tax. lower than otherwise they would have been, and, in Finally, if the Minister finds the RBS employment parallel with that, that banks will lend in a verifiable agreement with Mr Hester unacceptable, he can terminate way more than they would have lent. We are not it and replace it with a new one. Will he do so, because back-pedalling on any of this and are continuing to the people of this country will not accept a situation in work actively with the banks. which in excess of 5,000 people working in British As far as concerns the management of RBS and banking will receive total remuneration in excess of Lloyds, the basic construct put in place by the previous £1 million per annum? This is totally acceptable and Government ensured that the banks would be managed we are entitled to a decent answer from the Minister to on an arm’s-length basis without the Government these questions on bonuses, rather than the blather directing their day-to-day operations. That is the broad that we have heard about other matters. principle to which we are sticking. Nevertheless, it is important that the Government, as a significant Lord Sassoon: My Lords, I am not going to stand shareholder in RBS and Lloyds, make their views very here and listen to the ridiculous tirade from the noble clear on all matters including bonuses. Lord, Lord Myners. If he had all these brilliant ideas, why did he not implement a single one of them when he was in office? It ill behoves him to come here with Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe: My Lords, it would this litany of ideas, which may or may not be good but help if we had some honesty in dealing with some of are given to me not in the spirit of co-operation but as these issues. The Statement says that the previous a lecture telling me what we are not doing. I could Government’s failure to address them brought this repeat—but it would bore noble Lords interminably—the country’s economy to its knees. Presumably the previous Statement of my right honourable friend, which gave a Labour Government were responsible for the banking great list of things that we are doing and have done. failure in the USA, Portugal, Greece, Ireland, Spain The Government of the noble Lord, Lord Myners, left and other parts of the world. This is a worldwide only 25 banks with any sort of disclosure requirements. problem that is not solely related to the previous We have extended that figure to 2,500. His Government Government. managed to get a paltry four banks signed up to the To come back to the Statement, the Chancellor much lauded taxation agreement. We now have the said, and the Minister concluded with it, that, “if the top 15 banks signed up. I could go on. It is no good Opposition that created this banking mess has a better the noble Lord giving me a lecture about what we idea, let us hear it”. My noble friend Lord Myners should do. He had years to deal with the matter and asked four questions and we await answers to them. completely failed. We are getting on in a very practical way to make sure that the banking industry and regulatory system is fixed. Lord Sassoon: My Lords, all I can say is that I will listen to any ideas. I did not hear the question at the Lord Higgins: My Lords, is my noble friend aware end of the four ideas put forward but I am willing to that the Government are absolutely right to get rid of listen to all ideas from noble Lords on a whole range the failed tripartite agreement that caused many of the of topics. I am always listening but I am puzzled that problems that we now face? Does he agree that we are when the noble Lord had so much time in government making some progress in reducing cash payments, to put those ideas into operation he did not think that deferred bonuses and so on? However, I have some they were so good at the time. difficulty with his argument that bonuses are all right so long as the banks lend more. That seems to be a non Lord McFall of Alcluith: At the Treasury Select sequitur, except in the sense that if we agree to the Committee this morning Bob Diamond is reported to bonuses, the banks may lend more. However, they have said that Barclays is in the position that it is not ought to be doing that anyway. The two issues are not too big to fail. Does the Minister agree with that connected except in the sense of, “We will be soft on statement and, if so, does that mean that if any big you if you do what we want”. That is not the right bank in distress comes to the Government in future approach. the taxpayer will not be on the hook? As far as concerns RBS and the other banks that have been bailed out by the Government, I understand my noble friend’s point about the agreement made by Lord Sassoon: I am grateful to the noble Lord, the previous Government. However, given the extent Lord McFall of Alcluith, for reminding us that there of participation in those banks, ought there not to be are other challenges as well as bankers’ bonuses to be clear representation on behalf of taxpayers and the resolved. The too-big-to-fail one is absolutely at the Government on the boards of the banks so that those heart of strands of ongoing work. I did not have the directors could take appropriate action—because at opportunity to listen to the whole of what Mr Diamond the end of the day it is the board that decides these said to the Treasury Select Committee but I certainly matters—with regard to bonuses? believe that whether it is in the work of the Independent Commission on Banking or in the discussions that are Lord Sassoon: I am grateful to my noble friend going on in international fora, the question of how to Lord Higgins for recognising the progress that we are resolve bank failures is one to which we need to making on reform of the regulatory structures, and in continue to give considerable priority. We are reminded 1337 Banking: Bonuses[11 JANUARY 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 1338 that the question of the structure of banking is such things, for them not to give the impression that multifaceted and we should not focus exclusively on they are going to do so? That is simply a propaganda one aspect of it. own goal. Would the Minister also comment on the view from a former Business Secretary that the rich Lord Beecham: Will the Minister tell the House by have suffered enough? how much the banks will benefit from the pending reduction in corporation tax? Lord Sassoon: My Lords, I am conscious of the Lord Sassoon: My Lords, clearly it depends on the time. All I can say is that my right honourable friend level of profits they make as to how much they will the Chancellor has made it completely clear what we benefit from the reduction in the rate of corporation are doing today, which is a considerable package of tax. We look at the total package of taxation on things, one element of which is to talk actively to the banks, as we do for the rest of industry. We believe banks with the aim of ensuring that the bonuses they that by introducing in particular the levy on banks, will pay this year will be lower than they would otherwise they will be paying a fair share to the Exchequer. We have paid. need to take account of the remuneration taxes, continue to consider the costs and benefits and talk to our partners about a financial activity tax, but we must Public Bodies Bill [HL] take the whole of the taxation burden on the banks in Committee (6th Day)(Continued) the round. 6.08 pm Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts: My Lords, does my noble friend not think it strange that the party opposite seeks to evade any responsibility for the Amendment 37 situation in which we now find ourselves? Having Moved by Lord Faulkner of Worcester created the situation in which the taxpayer has ended up as a very large shareholder in a number of UK 37: Schedule 1, page 16, line 31, leave out “Football Licensing banks, is it not now most important that those banks Authority.” return to profitability so that the share price and the performance of the banks will enable the taxpayer to Lord Faulkner of Worcester: In moving the amendment, earn a profit on the investment? To do that, do the I shall speak to Amendment 91, which is grouped with banks not need to be properly staffed and remunerated? Amendment 37. Both amendments refer to the future Will not our proposal enable us to do something to of the Football Licensing Authority. mitigate the disastrous economic incompetence of the Those of your Lordships with long memories may previous Government? recall that the FLA was originally set up under the Football Spectators Act 1989 to oversee the introduction Lord Sassoon: I am grateful to my noble friend of the compulsory membership scheme so beloved of Lord Hodgson and agree with his analysis. We need a the noble Baroness, Lady Thatcher, who believed that successful and vibrant banking system in this country. such a scheme was the right response to the football-related We need healthy banks across the system, but it is hooliganism of the 1980s. One of the worst examples particularly important for the taxpayer that the health of such hooliganism had resulted in the Heysel stadium of RBS and Lloyds is restored so that they can get a disaster of 1985. However, before the Act could be decent return in due course from its interest in those implemented, almost 100 people lost their lives at banks. Hillsborough stadium in Sheffield at an FACup semi-final match and the subsequent inquiry conducted by Lord Lord Campbell-Savours: Is it not fair to say that Justice Taylor reported that the scale of the disaster bonuses based on share options could be quite would have been even worse if a compulsory membership remunerative? scheme had been in force. Therefore, that provision in Lord Sassoon: Indeed, bonuses based on a number the Act was shelved and has not seen the light of day of forms can be remunerative. It is now a fundamental since. Lord Justice Taylor’s principal recommendation part of the package agreed by G20 Ministers, incorporated in his final report that the grounds of Britain’s professional in the European capital requirements directive in force football clubs should eliminate standing and become from 1 January in the UK, that a significant part of all seated was accepted by the Conservative Government bonuses now has to be paid in a non-cash form and of the day and supported by subsequent Labour cannot be cashed in for a considerable period. Absolutely, Administrations. The one variation was to exempt that needs to be part of the structure. clubs in the lower two divisions of the Football League from the requirement to go all seated. Lord Greaves: My Lords, the Independent this morning At this point, I should declare that not only was I at has some devastating quotes in recent months from that cup semi-final at Hillsborough on 15 April 1989 the Prime Minister, my right honourable friend the but, throughout the 1980s and 1990s, I was deputy Deputy Prime Minister, the Chancellor and the Business chairman of the Football Trust. Our distinguished Secretary that can only be taken by ordinary people to chairman was the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, whose mean that large, multimillion pound bonuses would be son sits on the Cross Benches today. The Football stopped by the Government. That is the only reasonable Trust was the body charged by the Government to interpretation to put on them. Would it be sensible, if provide the funding from football pool competitions senior members of this Government cannot deliver for the transformation of Britain’s football grounds. 1339 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 1340

[LORD FAULKNER OF WORCESTER] 6.15 pm The Football Licensing Authority was given the responsibility for licensing grounds and ensuring spectator Baroness Taylor of Bolton: I support my noble safety—principally by implementing the all-seater policy. friend and have attached my name to Amendments 37 and 91. Over recent weeks, since we first tabled the Over the past 20 years, not a breath of scandal has amendments, there have been many opportunities for been attached to the work of the FLA. The Football the Government to clarify the situation, but we are Licensing Authority has acquired a worldwide reputation as confused as we were. The comments of my noble as an authority on stadium safety and is the Government’s friend Lord Faulkner summarise very well the dilemma principal adviser in this area. Mercifully, there has that we face in trying to understand the Government’s been no repetition of the Hillsborough disaster or the intentions. My noble friend gave a brief but accurate dreadful fire at Bradford City’s ground in May 1985. history of the formation of the Football Licensing So why is the FLA listed in Schedule 1 as facing Authority. He mentioned in passing the Football Trust, abolition? of which he was not only a leading member but The DCMS statement does not help us very much, fundamental in its establishment. I pay tribute to the as it suggests that the proposals involve, work that he did, which was very important. “continuing the Football Licensing Authority as a separate body My noble friend also mentioned the Hillsborough until after 2012 when its expertise and functions will be transferred disaster. Many of us who have a serious and long-term to another body”. interest in football will remember exactly where we Bizarrely, included in that announcement was the were on that day. All of us who have been involved in statement that, considering safety issues remember many of the details— “The Government will support the Sports Grounds Safety the work that went into the Taylor report and the public Authority Bill 2010-11, a private members’ bill, presented on concern about other disasters as well as Hillsborough— 30 June 2010 by Jonathan Lord MP. This would rename the and the great leap forward that everybody in football Football Licensing Authority the Sports Grounds Safety Authority had to make to come to terms with the improvements and allow it to provide advice, on request, about safety at sports grounds to any national or international organisation, person or necessary to provide spectators with the safety that they body (including local authorities and Ministers of the Crown) deserved. From those unfortunate beginnings, from those and to charge for these services in certain circumstances”. disasters, we have made significant progress in this country The FLA has been seeking such powers for years, and and, as my noble friend said, become world leaders in I was looking forward to giving that Bill my full football stadium design and football safety generally. support once it reached your Lordships’ House. That The reputation of the FLA is without doubt—I have Bill has every prospect of coming here because it has heard no one in another place or in general conversation already secured its Second Reading in the other place criticise its work—but over the past few weeks we have without opposition and has been committed to a seen incredible confusion, as my noble friend has Public Bill Committee. pointed out. Originally, there was reassurance from I must ask the Minister what on earth is going on. the department to the FLA about its future. There has How can the Government support a Private Member’s been the suggestion of extra responsibility through the Bill that will extend the scope of an organisation that Private Member’s Bill, which I think received more or they list for abolition? To refer vaguely to transferring less universal acclaim when it was introduced in another the FLA’s responsibilities after 2012 to “another body” place. Nobody dissented to that Bill; indeed, the is just not good enough. Cleverer people than me have Government so supported the Bill that they introduced been racking their brains to think what other body the a money resolution to facilitate its passage, which is FLA could be moved into. Bearing in mind that the somewhat unusual. So far, so good for Football Licensing FLA has licensing and regulatory functions, it is hard Authority, but then we got this Bill. No one has said to see how those functions could go to a body such as that the FLA is not doing a good job—many say that the Local Government Association. Nor would the it should have more responsibility—and there have Health and Safety Executive be appropriate. The FLA even been plans to make it more efficient, but then we deals with spectators and with professional football, got suggestions of abolition or merger. whereas the HSE is responsible for the safety of workers We all know how important football is in this and the places where they are employed. The ethos of country. I am one of those people—some would say, the HSE is to investigate accidents; that of the FLA is sad people—who spend most Saturdays on either a to prevent accidents in the strictly specialist environment high or a low depending on the result of the Bolton of sports stadiums. Wanderers match. Hundreds of thousands of people, The truth is that the Football Licensing Authority myself and many others in this House included, go enjoys the support and respect of all the authorities regularly to football matches. We go today safe in the and individuals with which it deals. It would be a knowledge that the stadiums that we attend are up to public relations disaster for the Government to give scratch. I have taken my children since they were quite the impression that football spectator safety somehow a young age. It is important to people such as me who did not matter any more. What sort of message would believe that football is a family sport that we can take that send, for example, to the Hillsborough victims, our children—and, for many people, grandchildren—to whose grievances are now being addressed by the football matches in the knowledge that everything is Government’s own Hillsborough inquiry panel, chaired done to provide the right safety standards. by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Liverpool? As my noble friend said, the FLA has world respect. I hope that the Minister can give us some answers and, People come to the FLA for advice. Other countries better still, accept my amendments. I beg to move. would very much like to have the kind of authority 1341 Public Bodies Bill [HL][11 JANUARY 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 1342 that we have in this country.The Government’s confusion Some suggestions have been made that it might be over the past few months has undermined, and is in better for it to part of a larger body with a wider remit, danger of destabilising, the good work that has been although the Private Member’s Bill being put forward done over many years. This provision in the Bill would allow for that to happen anyway, as I understand raises questions about the Government’s commitment it. So, why is it being done—that is the fundamental to football and to sport in general. We saw what question that has to be asked and that the Minister happened with the school sports money. Although has to answer. He has to provide some information there was a partial U-turn on that, similar damage has about what new structure, what new system of transfer been done. or merger of powers the Government want to bring The FLA is critical to the safety of spectators and about. If the powers are to be transferred to some participants in sport, exists on a very small budget other body, or merged with those of some other body, and is very well thought of. Indeed, the FLA is rather which other bodies are we talking about? Again, the strange in the lack of criticism that it attracts. The information we have been provided is incredibly vague. FLA has pushed out new grounds, has developed In fact, it is completely vague; it simply has not been stewarding and has got the co-operation of clubs—even stated. very senior clubs—which have listened to its advice It seems that this goes back, yet again, to the basic and taken its encouragement. The FLA has not had to deficiency of the whole architecture of the Bill. Given be heavy-handed because of the respect in which it is the architecture of the Bill at the moment, and the way held by all in football. in which these bodies can be closed down, or merged, I hope that the Government tonight will give some or have their powers transferred, or whatever it is, thought to clarifying just what is their commitment simply by ministerial order, subject only to a relatively both to the FLA and to all of us who watch football brief take-it-or-leave-it debate in this House and the matches live and who depend on the FLA to ensure procedures in the House of Commons, we have no the safety of ourselves, our families and those who alternative but to try to probe, in Committee, what is watch football with us. going to happen with each and every one of these bodies. That is why it is taking so much time. Lord Greaves: I should follow the noble Baroness As for this body, the information we have been by admitting that I, too, spend more of my time than provided so far is absolutely and utterly inadequate is good for me watching football matches. In my case it and unless proper information is provided by Report, is nowadays mainly non-league football in the north the House would be entirely justified in taking this of England. It is a wonderful thing to do, but not to be body out of the Bill. discussed here today. This proposal is one of the most mystifying of the Lord Clark of Windermere: I intervene briefly to proposals in the various schedules to the Bill. We have support the amendment of my noble friends Lord discussed a number of them so far and we have quite a Faulkner and Lady Taylor of Bolton, both of whom few more to go. By and large, they fall into one of two have long experience in the administration of football. categories. There are those which the Government Their introductions were wise and full of knowledge. want to abolish and simply close, because they are no It is interesting to find myself, yet again, on the same use any more, or because the Government think their side and making the same arguments as the noble functions should no longer be carried out. That is not Lord, Lord Greaves, as I have so many times during the case with this body. There are those where the the proceedings on the Bill. He is absolutely right functions are being transferred to the appropriate except in one thing. He said that the information government department on the grounds that, in the provided by the Government as to the raison d’être for Government’s view, that provides more democratic proposing this abolition was vague. It was not vague; accountability for their functions than an arm’s-length it was basically non-existent. That is why we have body, a non-departmental public body, or some other these amendments at this stage. sort of arm’s-length body, as at present. That is not the I declare an interest as a non-executive director of case with this body because the information we are Carlisle United Football Club. I pay particular attention, being given so far makes it absolutely clear that the in that role, to the safety of the ground and of the functions will continue, that no staff will be made crowd. Before I venture down that route, I can say that redundant and presumably, therefore, there will not be I discussed this proposal with people at various levels any significant savings. of football administration and they are unanimously Certainly, the Government have not provided any bemused and mystified. The Government seem to be information about whether they think savings can be saying that they are in favour of the work of the FLA, made. That is the second group of bodies—those but the FLA should not do it. Yet, on the other hand, which the Government want to reorganise because it is unclear what is the alternative body so to do, as they believe that savings can be made. If sensible my noble friends have argued this evening. savings can be made by reorganising quangos, it is On the importance of the directors of football difficult to argue against that, if the proposals are clubs to the safety of supporters, I take a great interest otherwise reasonable and sensible. However, that is in the safety aspect. I regularly take fans around and not the case with this body. The functions are to explain what we do and what we are required to do to remain, the staff are to remain and it does not appear ensure their safety. At virtually every home match I that there will be any significant savings, although pay a visit to the safety room and discuss with the perhaps the Minister can tell us about that. What, safety officer and his staff what is happening and ask therefore, is the purpose of the change? whether everything is okay. It is interesting that, when 1343 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 1344

[LORD CLARK OF WINDERMERE] This is not clear. We want some clarity because at I take groups of fans around, the safety officers tell the the end of the day we do not doubt that the Government fans that, if you are going to be taken unwell, the place have in mind some agency to provide this and to to do it, if not at hospital, is at a football ground guarantee this standard across the country, but many because they are very safe, physically. We have medical of us would like to see it right across sports. and ambulance staff, we always have paramedics and at least two doctors; one for the crowd, one for the Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I am sure we teams. A great deal of attention is paid to the safety of are all grateful to my noble friends Lord Faulkner of fans. I notice that the noble Lord, Lord Henley, is in Worcester and Lady Taylor for allowing us to debate his place. I have seen him at the same football ground the Football Licensing Authority. My noble friend and I will very happily take him to see the safety work Lady Taylor described supporting Bolton Wanderers that we do at Carlisle United. as being a mixture of highs and lows; of course, as a My main thrust is to try to tease out of the Minister supporter of Birmingham City, I fear it is usually all what he has in mind. The FLA has, perhaps, not too low and very few highs. struck strictly to its remit. It is the Football Licensing I want to start by paying tribute to the Football Authority. Its job is to co-ordinate and to make sure Licensing Authority. There is no doubt that safety that standards exercised by the licensing authorities, issues are very important in our football grounds and which tend to be the local authorities, are standardised that there has been a huge improvement over the and up to standard. That applies not just to football years. As the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney, said, there grounds. There have been many examples of the Football has been an improvement in overall safety culture. I Licensing Authority assisting other sports with their believe that the development of stewarding by the stadia, almost ex gratia, and, in doing so, it has clubs themselves has enhanced the development of a protected the supporters of other sports. secure environment in a non-confrontational way and that we have seen a big improvement in facilities. Lord Mawhinney: I am very grateful to the noble However, with all the improvements that have taken Lord. He knows my declarable interest and he also place, can we say that the problem has gone away in its knows the very high regard in which I hold him and entirety? I do not think it has. There have been some the role that he has played at Carlisle for many years. I incidents—I am sorry to say at my own football can tell other Members of your Lordships’ House that club in a derby against Aston Villa only a few weeks he is held in extremely high regard. What I am not ago—where there were issues of concern about safety. entirely clear about from the noble Lord is not the That suggests to me that we can never be complacent. history, which was well rehearsed by the noble Lord, The answer to the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney, is Lord Faulkner of Worcester, or the hugely significant that however much— difference that the FLA made 20 years ago and built on, but what he thinks would happen to safety at Baroness Taylor of Bolton: While my noble friend is Carlisle if the FLA was abolished. Surely he is not on this point and talking about the future, does he trying to argue that safety at Carlisle United would agree with the comments of Paul Thorogood, the chief diminish as a consequence. In which case, what is the executive of the Football Foundation, which is responsible point that he is trying to make for the Committee, not for many of the support packages for improvements at 20 years back, but 20 weeks ahead? smaller clubs, that he would be extremely worried were the FLA to be abolished because that would affect the Lord Clark of Windermere: The noble Lord is very future safety of the projects with which the foundation perceptive. I am just about to deal with those points. I is involved? compliment him on the excellent work he did when he was chair of the Football League. It was much appreciated. Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My noble friend raises a He was able to bring to that role the discipline and most important point. Even if you take Carlisle United, vision that we all respect. with the dedication of my noble friend as a director The key point I want to turn to now is what the and his concern for safety, surely directors in their Government have in mind when the FLA is abolished. responsibilities regarding safety can still take advantage At one stage, there was talk that it would be taken of the advice and presence of a body such as the FLA. in-house by the Department for Culture, Media and I am convinced that the FLA or a similar body has an Sport, but I have serious doubts about how viable that important role to play in the future. would be. The alternative is to look at the safety of I see from noble Lords opposite that the noble sports grounds. I am in favour of that because the Baroness, Lady Rawlings, who we welcome to our point I was making was that the FLA has in the past debates on the Bill, is going to give a positive assurance performed this job which is outside its remit. It would about the future. That would be very welcome. However, be helpful if all sports grounds were regulated by the I have to say to her that our problem with the Bill, as same body. I am trying to tease out of the Minister described by the Public Administration Select Committee whether that is what the Government are trying to do. only last week, is that the overall reviews by individual If they are, will they give us some ideas about the government departments were very poorly managed, funding? It is not only about the regulations. One there was an absence of meaningful consultation, the thing the FLA did was to work with City & Guilds to tests in the reviews were not clearly defined and the have an NVQ course for people who work in safety in Cabinet Office clearly failed to establish a proper grounds. That is the sort of thing that we ought to be procedure for departments to follow. That has left encouraging. noble Lords in a vacuum regarding the intention of 1345 Public Bodies Bill [HL][11 JANUARY 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 1346 the Government. The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, referred make certain that we have an appropriate solution in to the mysteries of the Bill, and this is a classic case in place in time to meet the commitment to implement point. reforms after the 2012 Olympics. This proposal would The noble Lord then went on to say that the real not risk the important strides made over the past problem is the architecture of the Bill. I do not think 20 years to improve safety at football after the he was in his place when we had our debate on the first Hillsborough disaster. group of amendments when we discussed the architecture, I take this opportunity to assure the House that we but it is perfectly clear that if the Government were to do not intend to change the law in relation to football come forward and make it abundantly clear that they ground safety and, as I have made clear, these important are now prepared to make changes to the architecture functions need to be retained. of the Bill in relation to Schedule 7, in particular, and also on public consultation, on the procedure under Lord Mawhinney: My noble friend said that she is which orders would be debated in your Lordships’ planning, on behalf of the Government, to discuss House for bodies that come under the Bill and other with interested parties what might be the new arrangement. matters that we have discussed, then noble Lords Those of us with experience of government know that would have much more confidence. At the moment, there is a difference between discussions and public we have been left in the dark. It is clear that noble consultation. I was wondering whether she might be Lords do not know about the Government’s intention tempted to commit to a public consultation, so that regarding the FLA. I do not think it is satisfactory anyone with a view worth expressing and listening to that we are here in Committee debating the Bill when would have the opportunity and no one would feel there is uncertainty in your Lordships’ House and in excluded from the sense of ownership of the new body the sports world as a whole. I am sure that the noble which the Government are proposing. Baroness will be able to give us some comfort that the issues of safety will be taken forward in future, but I hope that she will give some comfort about how the Baroness Rawlings: I thank my noble friend Lord Government intend to deal with the Bill more generally. Mawhinney for that question. As he would know, having been a distinguished government Minister, at Baroness Rawlings: My Lords, I thank the noble this Dispatch Box I am unable to confirm consultation. Lord, Lord Faulkner of Worcester, and the noble But I can assure him that there will be further discussions Baroness, Lady Taylor of Bolton, who put down this and that that will be looked into. amendment for us to discuss, and all the other speakers. This debate gives me the opportunity to clarify, which Baroness Taylor of Bolton: Leaving aside for a the noble Baroness asked for, and to clear up many of moment the wisdom or otherwise of abolishing the the misunderstandings and points on this issue. body before what is going to happen to it has been Amendment 37 removes the Football Licensing decided, in view of what the Minister has said about Authority from Schedule 1, and Amendment 91 inserts the continuation of the functions of the FLA, surely the said body into Schedule 5, allowing its functions to she could accept transferring the FLA from Schedule be modified or transferred while retaining the body in 1 to the provision in Amendment 91. That would its current form. The Government are very clear that allow proper consideration of what should be happening the Football Licensing Authority carries out an important in a full way and everyone could be consulted. Just role, and we want this to continue. Indeed, as the noble transferring the FLA from the first schedule to later in Lord, Lord Faulkner, said, the Government are supporting the Bill would accomplish what she is trying to do. a Private Member’s Bill that seeks to reconstitute the Football Licensing Authority as the sports grounds Baroness Rawlings: The FLA is not being abolished. safety authority and will extend the authority’s advisory I would not like to take any decisions with great functions so that it has the power to provide advice rapidity at the Dispatch Box. All decisions on what about safety at sports grounds to any national or will happen to it in the future will be discussed at great international organisation, person or body. length. This is a very important matter and the Our intention is that the authority, as the noble Government would not want to take such a decision Lord, Lord Clark of Windermere, said, will continue without that. as a separate body, whether in its existing form or as a new sports grounds safety authority until after 2012 6.45 pm when its expertise and functions will be transferred to Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I must say another body. Doing so would allow the authority to that this is a bit of a puzzle because Schedule 1 lists the share the back-office functions of a larger organisation. bodies where power to abolish is being given. My This should lead to greater efficiencies and make it less noble friend has suggested that the FLA be moved to constrained from broadening out its role. It will therefore Schedule 7. I have a theological difficulty with that be able to make the best use of its expertise and because— reputation. By indicating that we will abolish the FLA as an independent public body only after 2012 will allow us Lord Berkeley: Schedule 5. time to make certain that we have an appropriate home for its expert role and functions. Over the next Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: Yes, it is Schedule 5; I 12 months, we will discuss the options with the FLA would like to see Schedule 7 removed from the Bill. It potential host organisations and interest groups to is very difficult to know why the noble Baroness’s 1347 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 1348

[LORD HUNT OF KINGS HEATH] staff and functions within their organisations. Can the department is not using the Bill in the way in which it Government give us a shortlist—perhaps not today, is constructed. Schedule 5 is headed “Power to modify but before Report—of those organisations that they or transfer functions: bodies and offices”. Why on earth consider might be appropriate to take on the FLA is the FLA not in that schedule? being moved into them en bloc or just its staff and functions? Baroness Rawlings: That part of the Bill will be looked at later, as I have said. With its important Baroness Rawlings: I thank my noble friend Lord functions, it is not being abolished in this Bill. However, Greaves for his questions. The savings are not a number as I have set out, the Government’s proposals include one priority in this case. Regarding the Private Member’s the abolition of the FLA as such after 2012 and Bill, it is going through Parliament at the moment, not now. and the FLA has to be abolished in order to be merged with something else afterwards. Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, no date is given as to when bodies are to be abolished. Schedule Lord Faulkner of Worcester: My Lords, I thank the 1 sets out the bodies where this Bill gives power to Minister for her attempt to answer the debate. I have abolish. The puzzle is that, because Schedule 5 gives to say that this bit of the Bill is an indication of the the flexibility to list bodies where at some stage—not problems the Government have with their whole approach, at the moment maybe, but at some time in the future—you in that the Cabinet Office decided on a series of death might want to transfer or to modify their functions, sentences in advance of publishing the Bill, and then why on earth is the FLA not in that, given that the decided to put forward the trials and amass the cases Government have clearly designed the Bill to give in order to prove that those sentences are justified. In flexibility for such organisations? Perhaps the noble the case of this body the DCMS, to its credit, is Baroness might want to come back on that. resisting what the Cabinet Office is doing. It does not believe for a moment that there is any other place which the FLA or, in its new form, the sports grounds Baroness Rawlings: With respect to the noble Lord, safety authority can go to for the reasons I set out in Lord Hunt, I have just said that the FLA will not be my opening speech. I am pretty sure that at the end of abolished until after 2012. We believe that there is a this rather painful period, it will be concluded that the strong rationale for doing so, while acknowledging sports grounds safety authority, which is what it will and seeking to protect the benefits associated with its become with the passage of the Private Member’s Bill, important public functions. The Government will continue will continue as an independent body. to support the Private Member’s Bill and will work The Minister has said helpfully that the functions with Parliament to secure what we hope will be an of the FLA in its new guise are essential and that there extremely positive outcome. On this basis, I hope the is no intention to weaken football stadium or sports noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment. ground safety legislation, which is very welcome. The logic is therefore inexorable in the way that the noble Lord Greaves: Before the noble Lord tells us whether Lord, Lord Greaves, explained. The conclusion has to he is prepared to do that, perhaps I may just pick up be that the authority will continue in some guise or on a couple of points. From the statement that the another. Minister has given, it is very clear that the Government I am most grateful for the contributions that have are proposing, in due course after 2012, to merge the been made, including that of the noble Lord, Lord FLA with an unspecified body. In those circumstances, Mawhinney, whose support for the FLA is greatly it seems to me that its appropriate place in this Bill appreciated. He asked my noble friend Lord Clark a would be Schedule 2, which gives power to the Minister question about what role the authority has now. The by order to merge the bodies listed there. Equally, it answer is that sports ground safety is not a piece of could be in Schedule 5, as suggested in the amendment history. Local authorities are obliged to license sports in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, which grounds year by year. New stadiums are built and new would transfer its functions. It would leave a shell sports are going to come under the remit of the FLA organisation that has no function, but, nevertheless, as a result of the Private Member’s Bill, which I hope that would be a sensible place to do it. your Lordships will pass in due course, so the role of I still want to press the Minister on some questions an independent body is going to be very considerable and I have to congratulate her on the way in which she indeed. is coping. If I may swap sports, she is batting on a I am tempted by the amount of support that this sticky wicket here, which she is doing fairly well and amendment has received to test the opinion of the she is not out yet. First, as I have asked previously, can Committee, but it would be fairest if I gave the Minister she confirm that the Government do not intend to an opportunity to reflect on what has been said, and I save money by this proposal and that in no way there hope that we can come back to this on Report, when is a money-saving aspect? That seems to be what was she may be able to give a rather better explanation in the briefing. It would be useful to know that because about just where she thinks this authority is going in that issue would then be put to one side and would not the future. It cannot go to the Health and Safety be an issue any more. Executive, and it cannot go to local government, so Secondly, the Government must have some idea of the Government are going to have to create a new the existing organisations that are in line to merge authority to take over this one. That strikes me as with the FLA or are in line to absorb the FLA or its barmy.It would be much more sensible if the Government 1349 Public Bodies Bill [HL][11 JANUARY 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 1350 accepted this amendment, and agreed that the authority a consequence of this Bill, but we should be in no should go into Schedule 5 and was reconstituted along doubt that we shall as a nation be the poorer because the terms of the Private Member’s Bill. For the moment, of it. I beg to move. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Lord Berkeley: My Lords, I rise to support my Amendment 37 withdrawn. noble friend Lord Faulkner in this amendment. He has outlined the role of and described the people Amendment 38 not moved. involved in the Inland Waterways Advisory Council extremely well and he will be aware from the briefing that we have all had from Ministers that two secretarial Amendment 39 staff are involved in the council. To abolish something Moved by Lord Faulkner of Worcester because two people are employed there seems quite extraordinary. 39: Schedule 1, page 17, line 2, leave out “Inland Waterways Advisory Council.” The role of the IWAC seems to fit very well with the Government’s plans for localism because canals are a wonderful local amenity. However, there are challenges Lord Faulkner of Worcester: My Lords, this is in maintaining them. We have all read of how volunteer something a little different. The purpose of Amendment 39 labour is used so often because canals are expensive to is to remove the Inland Waterways Advisory Council maintain and do not produce a lot of revenue. Their from Schedule 1. This is not the most controversial transport was rather taken over by the railways about proposal in the Bill, but I believe that the 14 members 150 years ago, but they remain a wonderful amenity of the IWAC, all of whom are volunteers and unpaid, for leisure purposes and for what they provide to its part-time chair, John Edmonds, and the two support communities. We shall debate this issue again when we staff deserve at the very least an expression of public talk about the future of the British Waterways Board, thanks and recognition for what they have achieved but there will be some tension when the BWB becomes since April 2007, when the council was set up as a a charity. We have not been and we probably will not consequence of the Natural Environment and Rural be told where it will get its funding from and it Communities Act 2006. The same goes for the predecessor struggles hard to find funding at the moment. Indeed, body, the Inland Waterways Amenity Advisory Council, there are occasions when I see it turning itself into a which was formed in 1968. property company to the detriment of people trying to The IWAC does exactly what its title suggests. It use the canals. gives independent advice to the UK Government, the I heard about an example of this a couple of years Scottish Government, navigation authorities and other ago in Brentford on the Thames. Some of the BWB interested parties on matters appropriate to our inland people had done a deal with a property company to waterways. If no one wants to listen to that advice, of build some very nice waterside houses at Brentford. To course that is up to them, but before IWAC disappears make them even more attractive to the buyers and to it is worth making the point that the next two or three make more money, some pontoons were put into the years are going to be absolutely critical for the inland canal so that lots of canal boats could be moored waterways as the British Waterways Board turns itself there. The problem was that the pontoons and the into a charitable trust. That will represent a huge boats together were so wide that it was almost impossible change in culture as well as in status for the BWB, and to get a canal boat into the canal, which is after all I would have thought that it would benefit enormously the point of the lock connecting to the River Thames. from being able to call on the Inland Waterways There are quite strong tides there. Anyone who has Advisory Council for advice, particularly bearing in driven a canal boat will know they are not like motor mind that there is not a lot of experience in Defra in cars. They respond to the wind and the tide and they this area. do not steer very well, so you need a bit of space not to My question to the Minister, who on this occasion I hit things. But these people were quite happy to put think is going to be the noble Lord, Lord Henley, is: these pontoons in the river at the entrance to the canal how long do the Government expect the IWAC to stay and to allow things to moor, because that would make around for? Would he not agree that it makes no sense more money. There were allegations, which I do not to get rid of it before the British Waterways Board want to pursue, that people were making personal has completed the process of converting itself into a gains but, regardless of who got the revenue, it affected charity? One only needs to look at the CVs of the navigation. IWAC board members to realise how much talent is assembled at its meetings. It has economists, accountants, 7pm environmentalists, campaigners, academics and heritage I do not know how this will work when we have a experts—they are all there. charity running it. One always believes that charities What I feel is so sad about the Government’s approach are good things and that nobody will try to make towards the quangos is that it seems to be based on money or stop the organisation doing what it is supposed knowing the price of everything but the value of very to do. That remains to be seen, depending on what this little. Most countries would give a great deal to be able charity is going to be doing. In the mean time, as my to draw on a group of volunteers who are experts, who noble friend said, surely an independent advisory body cost the state virtually nothing and who come together is important. The department’s briefing paper says out of a sense of public duty and service. It may not be that abolishing this body will improve transparency apparent for some time just how much is being lost as and effectiveness in policy development by enabling 1351 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 1352

[LORD BERKELEY] in the third sector and transferring the Environment the Government to engage directly with stakeholders. Agency’s navigation and waterways responsibilities to With the greatest respect, that is total rubbish. It will that body. mean one or two officials—the few who are left in the I am, broadly speaking, subject to a few caveats, in Department for Transport—having to engage directly favour of that sense of direction. Eighty to 90 per cent with the experts all over the country whom my noble of British Waterways will probably be covered by that friend told us about. That is just not going to happen. new organisation, which will make it a very dominant It is sad that, for the sake of saving the cost of two organisation. All the small navigation authorities to secretarial posts, this body is going to be abolished. which the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, referred, supported I hope that the Minister will at least grant a stay of by volunteers, charities and local efforts for relatively execution, if that is the right expression, for several small stretches of canal and river, look to this body for years until this charity is established and we can all see technical advice and for a forum where they can sit how it is going to work and whether the charity needs and be treated equally with the representatives of independent advice costing it virtually nothing. I also British Waterways and the Environment Agency. They hope that the Government will make sure that the will be the people who will most miss out as a result of canals stay open and operational so that people can the abolition of this body. British Waterways, including enjoy them. They can get as much money as they want the Environment Agency’s navigation aspects, will take from other revenue, be it from developments that do care of itself, and the charitable status, I hope, will not block the canal, cables laid along the footpath, ensure that it does a good job for the public and the telecoms or whatever. I hope that there will be a environment. However, the smaller navigation authorities transition period of several years after the charity is need this body and we should seek to retain it for established before this body is abolished. them, certainly for a significant period beyond any transformation of the status of British Waterways, as Lord Phillips of Sudbury: My Lords, I support this my noble friend Lord Berkeley suggested. amendment and have little to add to what the noble Lords, Lord Faulkner of Worcester and Lord Berkeley, Lord Grantchester: My Lords, I compliment the have stated. The inland waterways of this country are speakers this evening on giving their thoughts on the one of its glories and, in the present age, the public Inland Waterways Advisory Council. I suggest that resort to and benefit from the inland waterways can this body has been included in this part of the Bill to only increase. We as a Parliament have for too long add some weight, but the timing has not been properly done things which were well intentioned but which, in considered. In rural areas, the inland waterways are the event, proved to be counterproductive. One of the a thriving enterprise for a lot of people. Volunteers great problems of the present age is that the public are undertake restoration and development work, which so confused about different bodies, particularly in the offers enjoyment to many people along the waterways, voluntary sphere, that a great deal of the good will reconstructing our industrial heritage and providing and potential effect of a body such as the Inland diversification opportunities in rural areas. I tease the Waterways Advisory Council can be inadvertently lost Minister when I say that we are not looking at a dead by chopping and changing. As all Members of the parrot. This situation is working extremely well. I ask House will know, the inland waterways are covered by him to consider the thoughts of all the noble Lords a wonderfully diverse mix of mainly charities—I am who have spoken tonight, to clarify some of the patron of the charity that looks after the River Stour, background as to why British Waterways is one of for example, but there are hundreds of them. To have a only nine bodies in the Public Bodies Bill being made competent, known, well regarded advisory body taking into a charity, to expand the Government’s thoughts a valuable overview and bringing together the often on why they think that British Waterways is best suited conflicting demands and interests of the individual to charitable status and to say how, given its activities, charities with their different responsibilities seems it is likely to be able to raise the funds necessary to indispensable. If that is right, then for mercy’s sake let continue to provide all these excellent opportunities in us leave this body alone and not at some future date development and restoration in rural areas for our have to resurrect it with a loss of public identity and wonderful waterways. continuity in the mean time. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Lord Whitty: My Lords, I will pick up from where for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Henley): the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, has just left off. I have a My Lords, we will come to the final point made by past interest as a Waterways Minister, which is a the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, when we get to fantastic job. I cannot remember if it is part of the Amendment 86. I offer my congratulations to the noble portfolio of the noble Lord, Lord Henley, but if not, Lords, Lord Faulkner of Worcester and Lord Berkeley, that is regrettable, because it provides a welcome relief on avoiding the whole wider question of the British from most of the rest of what one has to do. I also Waterways Board, which we will deal with at that point. have a present interest as a member of the board of The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, asked whether this the Environment Agency. British Waterways is the was part of my brief. I can confirm by shaking my dominant organisation for canals and the Environment head that it is not part of my brief within the department. Agency is the dominant organisation for rivers. An I will certainly discuss the matter with my honourable amendment recently tabled by the noble Lord, Lord friend Mr Benyon. He might be prepared to take on Taylor, points the way that the Government are thinking dangerous dogs and in return I could have waterways. of going in handing over British Waterways to a trust I could spend the weeks and months ahead cruising 1353 Public Bodies Bill [HL][11 JANUARY 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 1354 the waterways and avoiding this House until my noble Ministers and the Government and not for a body friend the Chief Whip brings me back to reality. I such as this. Therefore, we do not see that it is necessary make that point because it is important to remember, in the future. I cannot give a precise time as to when as other noble Lords have pointed out, the importance this body will disappear. That will be part of the wider of the waterways and canals to all of us. Again, as I consultation on the British Waterways Board and implied in my remark to the noble Lords, Lord Faulkner what we propose to create there. That, as I said, is and Lord Berkeley, that is a wider question, which we something that we will discuss on a later amendment. will come to when we get to Amendment 86, which I With that explanation of our intentions, I hope that do not suppose we will reach tonight. the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, will feel able to withdraw We are debating not the British Waterways Board his amendment. but the Inland Waterways Advisory Council. I want to make it clear that, after careful consideration, the 7.15 pm department, the Government and Ministers have decided that they no longer need a statutory arm’s-length body Lord Faulkner of Worcester: My Lords, I thank the to help to develop policy for the inland waterways. Minister for that reply. I am sure that the members of Although the Inland Waterways Advisory Council has the IWAC will have been heartened by his opening provided very useful input, policy development is rightly comments about the useful input that they have provided the role of government departments and Ministers to waterways policy. He could have been a little more working closely with delivery bodies and stakeholder fulsome, but at least the remarks were made. They will representatives, including such bodies as the Association appreciate that. The Minister has not been able to of Inland Navigation Authorities, as mentioned by my answer the question of how long this organisation will noble friend Lord Phillips and the noble Lord, Lord be around, which is unsatisfactory. I understand that Whitty. We will continue to develop closer working that is due to a process of consultation. This is one of relationships with all waterways interests. That will enable those areas where it would have been better if the Ministers to benefit from more direct and tailored consultation had happened before the Bill rather than input into policy development. the other way round, but that is true of so much of Our proposal to move the British Waterways Board this part of the Bill. into civil society in April 2012 will also mean that, for The noble Lord, Lord Phillips, made the most the future, the Government will no longer need an telling point. It does not seem sensible to abolish a organisation to provide advice on policy development. body such as the IWAC and then to find in two or The Government and navigation authorities need three years’ time that you have to reinvent it because to engage with stakeholders directly in the design, that role is still needed under the new status of the implementation and management of the new structure. British Waterways Board. We shall have to wait and The Government’s decision has been discussed with see. I shall read carefully what the Minister said. There the chairman of the Inland Waterways Advisory Council were some words of comfort, although his comments and individual members of that authority have been were not totally satisfactory. For the moment, I beg notified. leave to withdraw the amendment. That decision does not indicate that we will place any less emphasis on the importance of inland waterways. Amendment 39 withdrawn. Indeed, the department will be more directly involved as it seeks to place inland waterways on a more Amendment 40 not moved. sustainable footing through our work towards moving the British Waterways Board from being a public corporation, as has been mentioned, to a new charity in civil society. As I said, we will discuss that when we Amendment 41 come to Amendment 86. For that reason, we do not Moved by think it necessary to continue to have the Inland Baroness Whitaker Waterways Advisory Council. Noble Lords asked in 41: Schedule 1, page 17, line 4, leave out “Library Advisory simple terms how long it would stay around. We will Council for England.” consider precisely how long we need to keep the body in place when we have the results of the consultation on the British Waterways Board, which will be under Baroness Whitaker: My Lords, Amendment 41 is way fairly soon. intended to be a probing amendment. The Advisory Council on Libraries developed the policy document Lord Phillips of Sudbury: I do not understand. Did that formed the basis of current public library provision. my noble friend say that after the British Waterways Public libraries are one of our national treasures and Board is made an independent charity the Government in all the countries that I have visited, including the would not need to have a policy in relation to inland most developed, I have never seen public provision to waterways? If I have that wrong and the Government match them. Nobody would say that advice to the will still need a policy in relation to inland waterways—and Government on how best to provide this unique service it seems to me that they will—I still do not see what is can be done only through a structure such as that of wrong with this body as the conduit for that. the ACL, but advice there must be or the provision will wither. Even the best educated policy officials do Lord Henley: The Government will always need to not have the skills and experience of professional have a policy on these and a great deal of other librarians—nor perhaps the needs of many library matters, but policy should be a matter for the department, users. 1355 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 1356

[BARONESS WHITAKER] technologies, which have already had quite an impact. It may be that noble Lords opposite do not themselves Such people are missing the point about books and use public libraries much, but many of us do. More particularly their usefulness to those who are poor, than 320 million visits are made to our public libraries deprived or lonely—whom we find, I am afraid, in every year, and that would include visits by primary increasing numbers. school children who may have little other opportunity Local authorities often do not have the budgets to to experience the enjoyment of choosing and reading pay too much attention to the demand for libraries. I books. Many writers testify to the resources of the do not know—and in her interesting speech the noble public library that started them on their careers. Over Baroness did not mention—what the Advisory Council the weekend, the rising young pianist Paul Lewis was on Libraries does, but I take her point. When libraries interviewed. From the age of eight, he made visits to in London, for example, decide whether to order new the local public library to borrow albums of the music books, have more talking books or invite people to that he discovered. He was the son of an unemployed discussions and that kind of thing, what kind of Liverpool docker. What use the public library was advice do they get from the advisory council? I take to him. her point that advice of some kind is obviously At my library, I see scores and scores of students needed. Taking an overall view, as one would expect of using the library’s resources as well as elderly people a council of that kind, and seeing the changes in who may not be able to buy as many books as they population, their needs and the budgets available, the want to read. It is no surprise that library use plays a advisory council may be able to spot things that make part in driving up literacy rates and in raising and libraries better places. changing skills levels at all ages, as the noble Baroness, When I have visited libraries in America, I have Lady Rawlings, said in Questions on 2 December been impressed that there is almost always a cafeteria, 2010, at Hansard col. 1574. Public libraries help small which brightens them up. There are always bright business start-ups, promote healthier lifestyles and colours and the impression of innovation, which goes engage people in local democracy. They also help to apace with changes in the population. I support the bridge the digital divide by providing facilities and concerns of the noble Baroness and am interested to support to help the reluctant and fearful take the hear how the Government view libraries and whether first steps towards digital skills. They are an essential they agree with the idea—with which I disagree—that player in the Government-sponsored Race Online 2012 libraries have a limited lifespan. Do they agree that campaign. books are not only information but also therapeutic Libraries themselves do not necessarily have to be things to handle, whether they be history, biography housed in separate buildings—as most of them are in or fiction? A lot of people ignore the fact that a book their current form—but housed they must be, with is paper that has wonderful print on it; there is the enough room for their stock and for people to study it. quality of the cover and all kinds of things. Particularly What is government policy on public library development for people living through a stage in their life when they and where is the Government’s expert advice to come are lonely, depressed and poor, a book is a wonderful from? The Arts Council has many responsibilities, a thing. severely truncated budget and little expertise in libraries. In the absence of specific policy for this truly magnificent national resource, the Advisory Council on Libraries Lord Phillips of Sudbury: If the Advisory Council should stay. I beg to move. on Libraries is allowed to continue, it may be about to have its finest hour. I suspect that my local authority, Suffolk County Council, will be the same as many Viscount Falkland: I rise to support the noble Baroness councils in having to shed a great many of its libraries on her interesting probing amendment. Over the years, on to charitable bodies that have yet to be formed. If I have spoken several times about libraries, particularly ever there was to be a time when the advisory council during the previous Conservative Administration when came into its own with knobs on, it is surely in this there was some concern that local authorities were not important transition. Could the Minister say a little supporting libraries as they needed to be supported to about that? react to changes in demand, new technologies and so on. Libraries are as useful as they ever were. The demands placed on them may be different, but with an Lord McKenzie of Luton: It is with a degree of ageing society even those who are now young may trepidation that I rise to speak on issues of libraries, turn to books when they get old. particularly with my noble friend Lord Evans of Temple I have a bad habit of reading a book and keeping Guiting sitting on the Front Bench. He is of course far one eye on the television to see whether there is more knowledgeable than I am and has been engaged anything on the breakfast programme that might be in this subject for a long time. I put the Opposition’s interesting. This morning, I caught an interview with a position on this in relation to local government, where man who has just written a book about having been it has a big impact. unjustly imprisoned for some time. He was asked by Like so many things we have discussed under Clause 1, the interviewer how he dealt with spending so much there is here the potential demise of something time in solitary confinement in the United States. without any clear indication of what will go in its Without hesitation he said, “By books”. Books are place. This is especially bad for libraries given their more than just information. There are people who say vulnerability at the moment, and we know that local that books will not exist long after you are dead government has been subject to huge cuts. We can because books will be replaced by new electronic argue the macroeconomics of that but, even within the 1357 Public Bodies Bill [HL][11 JANUARY 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 1358

Government’s framework, the front-end loading and Council, but losing the council at this time has very the degree of cuts focused on local government are severe implications. I ask the Minister to comment on profound and give huge challenges. what would replace it, and what role that replacement To my regret, I do not use libraries much these days would take in encouraging working with local government, because of Front-Bench duties. A lot of the Minister’s given the challenges faced with the cuts that are being time will be eaten up by quite turgid policy documents imposed. and we miss the chance of reading that we might previously have had. Yet my local council, Luton, is 7.30 pm striving hard to preserve library services. My mother- Baroness Rawlings: My Lords, I agree totally with in-law, who is 91, thrives on the mobile service. You the noble Baroness, Lady Whitaker, and all noble can see her light up when they come with the delivery Lords who have spoken on the importance of libraries. of, I think, eight books at a time. She is surrounded by They are our national treasures. Everybody has expressed books; they are an important part of her life. If that very clearly the great importance of libraries and how were at risk it would be a problem. we cherish them in every possible way. On a personal The noble Lord, Lord Phillips, said that this note, one of my proudest moments as chairman of organisation should have its finest hour at a time when King’s College, London, was establishing the Maughan libraries across the country are more vulnerable than library in the old Public Record Office in Chancery they have been for many years. I was surprised by the Lane. Libraries have always been an integral part of extent to which there is still library provision in the my life. UK. I think there are more library branches in the UK This amendment, however, seeks to maintain the than branches of McDonalds or Boots. Apparently, Advisory Council on Libraries as an advisory NDPB. 10 times more people visit libraries than go to football The ACL is a statutory body which is no longer league matches. That is really encouraging and something sufficiently flexible to be relevant to current structures, we should cherish. It is not just about reading. There and whose functions are duplicated elsewhere. Local are something like 300 million visits to public libraries authorities have a statutory duty under the Public each year. Those visits play a significant role in driving Libraries and Museums Act 1964 to provide a up literacy rates, increasing the number of people “comprehensive and efficient” library service. The adopting healthier lifestyles, raising skills levels of all Secretary of State has a statutory oversight and promotion ages, providing diversionary activity to reduce crime, of improvement role in respect of such local library building bridges in the community to aid cohesion, services and a statutory duty to intervene when a reduce radicalisation and improve integration, engaging library authority fails, or is suspected of failing, to people in local democracy and getting more people provide that service. to vote. It is important to make certain that the Secretary of We fear that the coalition cuts to libraries mean State has sufficient support to fulfil his legal duties. that an estimated 6,000 people—a quarter of librarians However, the current system involves a degree of according to the Chartered Institute of Library and duplication. The Museums, Libraries and Archives Information Professionals—will lose their jobs in Council provides information to Ministers about the upcoming years. That would prove an incredible 151 library authorities in England. Officials within the indictment of what this Government is about. Plans to DCMS provide advice. The Advisory Council on Libraries replace professional librarians with volunteers may also provides Ministers with information and advice. protect some libraries but will inevitably jeopardise Abolishing the Advisory Council on Libraries will not the quality of services. The effects of the cuts being save a lot of money, as ACL members give their time faced are expected to be felt across the country, with freely and it employs no staff. But neither will it North Yorkshire reducing 42 libraries to 18 over four compromise the Secretary of State’s ability to fulfil his years, Leeds axing 20 small libraries, and Cornwall, legal duties. Officials will work with relevant bodies in Brent, Lewisham, Hammersmith and Fulham, Richmond, the absence of the Museums, Libraries and Archives Barnsley and Warrington also planning closures. Council to ensure that appropriate intelligence about the library sector is captured, and that mechanisms I ask the Minister whether the Government believe are in place to communicate it to the DCMS. Officials that untrained volunteers are any substitute for the will continue to advise the Secretary of State on the services of professional librarians. What assessment use of his statutory powers in the absence of the have they made of the impact of library closures and Advisory Council on Libraries. reduced library services on efforts to improve adult Knowledge of the sector is an essential criteria for literacy? How will the Government ensure that library recruitment to the ACL, but members cannot know closures and cuts to library services will not adversely about, or advise on, all issues. People involved with affect those people who do not have access to the relevant expertise and knowledge will be brought together internet—the very poorest in our society? It is a route as required to supplement the skills and expertise to that technology for many. Do the Government still available in the DCMS and its NDPBs. This flexible believe that libraries are a vital lifeline for families approach to the provision of information and advice with children, as well as elderly and vulnerable people? has proven effective already in enabling the Secretary Have they assessed the likely impact of cuts to library of State to exercise his statutory duty and will be services on those members of our communities? adopted as an alternative to an established advisory I am conscious that we have conflated the cuts that council. By drawing together experts as and when local authorities face and the challenges that that needed, rather than convening a formal group with brings with particular references to the Library Advisory limited membership and which meets only three times 1359 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] UK Border Agency: Visas and Passports 1360

[BARONESS RAWLINGS] mark the 200th anniversary of the birth of the foundress a year, the quality and depth of the information and of her order. With the guarantee of full hospitality advice needed to support the Secretary of State in throughout the short visit and payment of air fares policy development and oversight will be improved. also guaranteed, there seemed no reason why these I hope that has clarified the point on the advisory two exemplary Catholic women should not be able to council and ask the noble Baroness to withdraw her experience this once in a lifetime event. However, the amendment. original application was rejected, as was the subsequent appeal, without reasons being given and in spite of a considerable campaign mounted on their behalf. Baroness Whitaker: My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who spoke and to the Minister for her Another example is that of a most distinguished detailed explanation. I thought that the point from the retired diplomat. Indeed, he was a former deputy noble Lord, Lord Phillips, about the timeliness for Foreign Minister for his country, who is married and continuity of advice for libraries was particularly telling. currently living in London. He returned home to visit Although I shall read carefully the detail of what the his sick relative and was told that he would require Minister said, the problem of funding for the museums, a visa to return to the UK and to his wife. He did libraries and archives and their transfer to the Arts eventually get the visa, but the process took months Council provides real resource problems for exactly and it was very traumatic for him and for his family. that continuity of policy development. I can also quote the case of an elderly English I know that a number of other Lords who support woman living in Chile who needed to renew her passport. this amendment cannot be here tonight, so I shall She discovered that she had to send it off to Washington, certainly withdraw the amendment for the time being which alarmed her greatly and delayed the whole but I cannot promise not to return to the subject at process. report. These examples relate to Latin America, but there are many more that I could refer to, relating to other Amendment 41 withdrawn. parts of the world as well. The problem common to all these cases was not just that visitors from some countries Amendment 42 not moved. found they needed visas where perhaps they had not previously been required, but that they could not go to House resumed. the British embassy in their home country in order to process the application. I discovered that the new regional system set up in, I believe, April 2008, meant UK Border Agency: Visas and Passports that anybody from anywhere in the Americas, from Question for Short Debate Patagonia, through south and central America, Mexico and the USA, all had to make their applications to the 7.37 pm UK borders centre in New York, online and in perfect English. This seems to be carrying centralisation to Asked by Baroness Hooper extraordinary lengths. To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they I am aware that the business of applying for a visa plan to review the work of the UK Border Agency wherever you are—and whoever you are—can be tedious, with particular reference to the issuing of visas and time-consuming and irritating, but the UK Border passports in Latin America. Agency, on the evidence I have seen, appears to be making the process unnecessarily difficult, protracted, Baroness Hooper: My Lords, I originally tabled this bureaucratic and unfriendly. I am also aware that the Question for Short Debate more than a year ago when Parliamentary Ombudsman, in a report out almost a a number of horror stories were drawn to my attention year ago, stated that the UK Border Agency provides about the then relatively new regional visa application “very poor customer service” and has repeatedly failed process. Before doing so, however, and in the light of to read and reply to letters, keep proper records, keep the information that I had been given from a number case files together and notify applicants of decisions. of sources, I tabled a Question for Written Answer to That report related mainly to asylum applications, find out how many complaints have been received for which the considerations may well be different. But about the work of the UK Border Agency in administering do we really want other potential visitors to our country, the new process, to which I received a breezy reply who simply need to make a short visit, to visit relatives, from the noble Lord, Lord West of Spithead, saying to attend a conference or perform in a music or poetry that no complaints had been received. Given the number festival, to have to go through such a bureaucratic and of cases that I had heard about, the volume of unfriendly system, which must make them feel unwelcome? correspondence in the press at the time—in particular It seems perverse, too, that on the one hand, our in the Independent—and the reaction of ambassadors education establishments are encouraged to recruit and high commissioners posted here who were clearly overseas fee-paying students and then the full rigours at the receiving end of a lot of requests for help, I was and costs of the visa application system are applied. surprised at the Minister’s reply, to put it mildly. This has certainly been mentioned to me frequently by Perhaps I may illustrate this by quoting a couple of people concerned about the subject and the need for examples that were drawn to my attention. One was our education establishments to be able to finance the case of a nun and her companion from the Dominican themselves independently. The same goes for the entry Republic, who wished to attend the celebrations to of people who wish to establish businesses and so on. 1361 UK Border Agency: Visas and Passports[11 JANUARY 2011] UK Border Agency: Visas and Passports 1362

It seems to me that although it may be undeserved, high level of risk to justify a requirement that short-term there is undoubtedly a widespread feeling that the visitors from those countries would be required to whole system of visa applications is a nightmare and a obtain visas. In the case of Venezuela, there was an daunting process. This perception may exist because exemption for travellers using the new biometric machine- the new, centralised system was introduced without readable passports, because our main concern related any explanation or, as far as I am aware, consultation. to the ease with which old style Venezuelan passports For most people, the border agency is an anonymous, could be forged or fraudulently obtained. Apparently faceless body. Applying for a visa used to be a personal, there was some resentment in Bolivia about the way face-to-face transaction and that has now become a that it had been singled out by the visa waiver tests. long-distance paper transaction—or rather a long-distance Has our embassy posted an explanation for the online transaction. Obviously, for those who are not requirement on its website, and is there an opportunity computer literate, who tend to be older people, this to revisit the decision to require visas if the values that creates particular problems. go into the visa waiver tests alter as time passes? The time has come to ask the Government to As the Foreign Secretary pointed out, we have review the work of the UK Border Agency, to find out closed our embassies in El Salvador, Honduras, Nicaragua whether the regionally-centred system is working according and Paraguay over the past decade. A citizen of one of to plan—whatever the original plan may have been—and those countries wanting to come here for business, to make sure that complaints are followed up and that marriage, studies or medical treatment has to apply to there is a clearly understood system of complaints. It a visa section of a British embassy in some other may even be necessary to devise a system whereby specified country, which must be something of a deterrent. short-term applications—because most of the grievances A citizen of Paraguay, for example, must fly to Buenos I have heard about have tended to be for short-term Aires twice: first to have his digital photograph and visits—are separated from long-term applications and fingerprints taken, and then to collect the document treated more sympathetically and sensitively, and certainly he has submitted in support of his application including differently. his passport. At least, that was the impression that I With 2012 and the Olympics drawing ever closer, got from the website, and I hope the Minister will we really must get this right. I thank all those taking correct me if that is not right. part in this short debate, and I hope that the Minister Passports, however, are issued by the Identity and will be able to give us some reassurance. Passport Office, an executive arm of the Home Office. I can well believe that when a British traveller’s passport 7.45 pm is lost or stolen, it does cause enormous problems. The IPO website deals only with passports lost or stolen in Lord Avebury: My Lords, the noble Baroness’s interest the UK. When I rang the IPO this afternoon to ask in all matters Latin American is well known. Today, what the traveller should do if his passport is stolen, with remarkable timing, she has asked us to consider for example, in Asuncion, it was suggested that the the work of the UKBA at the very moment when the traveller should telephone the FCO. Home Affairs Committee in another place has published a report on the subject this morning, echoing some of It cannot be said that the issuing of visas and the criticisms the noble Baroness has made. passports would come high up on the agenda in the Foreign Secretary’s programme for enhancing our relations This is also the first time we have looked at Latin with Latin America. It did not figure in the Canning America—I think—since the Foreign Secretary delivered Lecture and there is no mention of it on the FCO’s the Canning Lecture outlining a policy of greater website; nor does it come up in discussions with leading engagement with the region, halting the decline of politicians in the region. Britain’s diplomatic presence there and giving it much enhanced ministerial attention. He said that at present, I had several meetings at the end of last year with we are lagging behind Germany, France and Italy in people from Peru and Colombia where the main subject our exports to Latin America and that was partly due was the EU free-trade agreement with those two countries to the transition from authoritarianism to democracy and its possible side effects. NGOs were concerned which had deterred investment and close political that the agreement would facilitate even more investment relations. He went on to say that now that most of the by EU-based companies in mineral extraction and oil countries in the region were stable democracies, and gas development without adequate consultation, we would support ambitious free-trade agreements particularly where the interests of indigenous people with the sub-regions of Latin America. In addition, were concerned. There was no complaint about the we would broker a strategic alliance between Latin procedures for issuing visas, which of course theoretically America and Europe on climate change, and work are the same in Latin America as in the rest of the closely with our partners in the region on tackling world. There is, I saw, a variation between the visa drugs and violence, supporting sustainable development centres in the time it took them to process applications, and addressing energy security. but at a quick glance the average processing time is no These are indeed ambitious goals, and no doubt slower in Latin America than in the rest of the world. UKBA and UK Visas have a walk-on part to play in The biometric information that has to be submitted making it as easy as possible to travel between Britain with an application—10-digit fingerprints and a digital and Latin America. There was a review of the services photograph—has to be generated at a specified visa provided by UKBA, starting three years ago, with the centre, which may be in another country. If you live in announcement of the visa waiver tests in 2007. It was Paraguay, for instance, where the embassy was closed decided that Bolivia and Venezuela posed a sufficiently in April 2005, you have to travel to Buenos Aires to 1363 UK Border Agency: Visas and Passports[LORDS] UK Border Agency: Visas and Passports 1364

[LORD AVEBURY] time, are working. Their children are probably in apply there in person and collect your passport from schools and their lives are made extremely difficult the embassy in Buenos Aires when it has finished because they can have no legal status. We lose out as a processing the application. It seems that an applicant country from the fact that they cannot pay taxes from Asuncion would have to make two trips to because they cannot officially exist. That is a problem— Buenos Aires on top of the £220 application fee. I and all the more of a problem in these times of wonder whether it would be possible to come to an austerity. arrangement with France or Germany, for example, Before closing, as we have the Minister from the for their embassies to collect biometric information Home Office replying to this debate, I want to mention on our behalf. the issue of Britons going the other way to Latin America. That is why I declared an interest as the 7.52 pm chair of the All-Party Group on Street Children. It Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: My Lords, I has been brought to our attention by a number of pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, whose NGOs working in the area that the problem of sex knowledge of Latin America and ear to the ground on tourism, where people from the EU are going to Latin all things Latin American have such benefits for this America, is growing and that it is children whom those House. It is useful that she has secured this debate people are preying on. That is a big issue, so we should today to allow the Minister to update us on what has not think just of people coming from South America happened in the intervening year and to give us a as the risk to the UK, which is what the reply from the flavour of a change of attitude, perhaps, with the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, to the Question change in government. Before I continue, I declare an from the noble Baroness, Lady Gibson, suggested. We interest as the chair of the All-Party Group on Bolivia pose a threat to them as well. and the chair of the All-Party Group on Street Children—the reason for the latter will become apparent 7.57 pm shortly. Viscount Montgomery of Alamein: My Lords, like As we have heard, there were particular problems other noble Lords I congratulate the noble Baroness, with the process when it changed over but the problem Lady Hooper, on her splendid introduction. Nobody now—as I have heard it mentioned by people from knows more about Latin America than she does and it both South America and central America—is perhaps is good to hear from her at all times. I want to follow less with the process than with the attitude. Indeed, up on one of her horror stories. A couple of years ago, that is reflected by the large community that we have the then Peruvian ambassador had difficulty getting living in London, whose members feel strongly that his daughter back into this country because she was they are still not recognised in the UK as an ethnic over 18. She was still resident at home in this country, group, a point that they have made time and again. because in Latin America people frequently stay on They should be recognised as one, but there is no at home past 18 until they get married, so she was provision on the census form to ask whether people coming back. He had considerable difficulty getting are Hispanic. Considering their numbers, I think that her in and some of us had to try to intervene on his that would be a reasonable thing to do. The fact that behalf to get that sorted out. It seemed fairly ridiculous. they are not really recognised as a group has, I believe, That is another example of a horror story of dealing a knock-on effect in their feeling about applying for visas. with the UK Border Agency. My noble friend Lord Avebury mentioned that the I am also happy to follow the noble Lord, Lord Bolivians felt singled out. It was perhaps unfortunate Avebury. He is not, unfortunately, my noble friend but that, even under a Labour Government, the two most he is a very long-time friend. We are the same age and left-wing Governments in Latin America—those of have had all sorts of dealings together for many years. Bolivia and Venezuela—failed to get the visa waiver He mentioned Paraguay; I was fortunate to be the through. The noble Baroness, Lady Gibson, raised leader of the last parliamentary delegation there, so I this issue in the House some eight months ago and was feel that what he said was relevant and important. The told of the various reasons for it. Have those criteria Paraguayans are very welcome here but have considerable since changed and, indeed, would those people wishing difficulty, as the noble Lord pointed out, in getting to come and visit their relatives here for a short time, that sorted out. They have to go down to Buenos Aires for example, be able to do so and to benefit from the as the nearest place, even though there is an extremely visa waiver? We benefit from the many people who efficient honorary consul in Asuncion, who was extremely have come here. Perhaps they came here as economic helpful on the visit that we made, so I am totally migrants but they now work in some of the most sympathetic. invisible jobs in London, in cleaning in particular. As the noble Baroness, Lady Miller of Chilthorne Living as I do in Kennington when I am here, I often Domer, did, I have to declare a multiplicity of interests. catch a bus home towards Elephant and Castle and I am not only chairman of the All-Party Group on meet them in the evening. We need to recognise that Central America but vice-chairman of just about every they, too, need their families to be able to visit without other Latin America-related group, as it happens— too much difficulty. including the one shared by the noble Baroness, Lady We heard today that the UKBA has lost thousands Hooper, the All-Party Group on Latin America. That of asylum seekers through the system, which highlights group encompasses them all, in a way, although there again the question that the Government are at some are separate subgroups that are equally important. stage going to have to address: amnesty for long-term Latin America is such an important area of the world residents. These people, who have been here for a long that we need to concentrate on it. 1365 UK Border Agency: Visas and Passports[11 JANUARY 2011] UK Border Agency: Visas and Passports 1366

It is interesting to look at this subject because the of many instances, but there are hundreds more available. number of countries in Latin America from which we I give just one. About a year ago, I invited 12 Iraqi require visas is quite small. It includes Bolivia, Colombia, high tribunal judges to visit me in Westminster so that Ecuador, Peru and Venezuela, plus the three island they could see our own new supreme constitutional republics: the islands of Cuba and Hispaniola, divided court and meet high-level judges both here and throughout as that is between the Dominican Republic and Haiti. the country. Some of those judges had already spent Apart from that, people from all the other countries, many months here on many occasions and were familiar including the whole of the Cono Sur—Chile, Argentina, with the United Kingdom, because we had been offering Paraguay and Uruguay—and Brazil, as well as Panama them training. The hub-and-spoke policy meant that and Mexico in central America, have no visa requirements those judges had to travel from Baghdad to Beirut and to come here. It seems rather strange that these particular to stay there for more than 10 days awaiting visas. This countries have been singled out for this sort of treatment. is the most extraordinary process that any of us have One wonders why. ever experienced. I told the Minister that I was not going to ask her I can give your Lordships many more instances any awkward questions, but this seems to be a matter from different parts of the world, impacting not just of some principle that we might like to have enunciated. on high-level judges but on businesses, industry, tourists How are the criteria that bring about these various and visitors. I do not wish to take up noble Lords’ and rather curious ad hoc distinctions between important time, but surely implementing this policy must be countries in Latin America identified? It is an important deeply frustrating for UK Border Agency staff. I believe part of the world, as has been pointed out. The Foreign that the policy gives an insurmountable barrier to Secretary, William Hague, has announced in the other visitors on grossly unfair grounds. Who can afford to place that the Government are making a new and travel to the hub of the spoke system and stay there for special drive in relation to it. It is unfortunately correct many days awaiting a visa that they may or may not that during the 12 years of the Labour Government get? It is simply not a possibility. At the spoke end, the interest in Latin America heavily depreciated and staff of the British embassies become deeply and declined, but one hoped—and it seems to have been greatly frustrated because they face the frustration of the case—that when the coalition came into existence, those who apply, are told to travel, cannot travel and with William Hague as Foreign Secretary, there would have to go away. Yet the British embassy staff are be a new and important drive. This seems to be part those who, at all times and in common with the UK of it. Border Agency, are putting forward the best of Britain— I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, the best face of the Untied Kingdom—and presenting on her effort in bringing this subject to our attention. I us in our most positive light. very much look forward to hearing what the Minister The hub-and-spoke policy, I therefore suggest, gives has to say. a shockingly false picture of our traditional welcome to visitors and guests to the United Kingdom. I suggest 8pm that this policy has failed lamentably and that the Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne: I, too, am Government should review it as an urgent preoccupation most grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, for and priority. After all, has the Foreign Secretary not giving us the opportunity to debate this important declared that economic movement, investment, trade subject. I have always received courteous and helpful and business should be at the heart of foreign policy? responses from the UK Border Agency whenever I Yet if businessmen cannot visit the United Kingdom have had reason to contact its officials, either in country without this extraordinary formulaic lunacy, how on or in Whitehall. My most recent experience was of a earth is that foreign policy to be achieved? We believe difficult case that peaked over Christmas and New Year. powerfully—do we not?—in democracy and the rule Throughout that most difficult period, with constant of law, yet we put up these barriers in a policy that all telephone calls from me and my staff, we received who have discussed it with me at official, political or nothing but helpfulness, for which I thank the agency. personal level have declared to be an utter disaster. I beg the minister to change it. The UK border officials discharge an exceptionally taxing task effectively and well, despite the considerable pressures that the agency and its staff are under constantly. 8.06 pm They deal with one of the most basic human needs Lord Rosser: My Lords, I, too, thank the noble and desires: the freedom to move. With people in Baroness, Lady Hooper, for securing this debate on an difficulty and trouble, there will always be an enormously issue that, as the noble Baroness said, has previously emotional, as well as an effectively practical, exchange been the source of concern to Members of your with the staff. The many people whom I have invited Lordships’ House. Operating in some 135 countries, over the years from central and South America, the the UK Border Agency provides a front-line border Middle East, central and eastern Europe and other control before people ever reach the UK. As we know, places have never commented adversely on their treatment, that is an important role, since over 75 per cent of the even most recently, from the UK Border Agency. On world’s population require a visa to come to the UK the other hand, the policy is something that gives rise and all businesspeople, workers and students staying to considerable, consistent and powerful objections longer than six months need a visa regardless of their from all quarters. nationality. The hub-and-spoke policy creates a routine that I The UK Border Agency international group visa and my visitors have experienced. It needs profound services directorate handles the overseas visa service review and total overhaul. Noble Lords have spoken and, as I understand it, at the start of 2009 managed 1367 UK Border Agency: Visas and Passports[LORDS] UK Border Agency: Visas and Passports 1368

[LORD ROSSER] to make good-quality decisions, the need for agency over 150 visa application centres in British missions. staff to maintain and have reliable access to accurate Of these, 73 were spoke posts, from which some or all case information and the need to treat people fairly of the applications are transferred to a hub post, and consistently. The independent chief inspector also where the decision is made. In addition, there are large states in his report that during his inspections he numbers of visa application centres run by the border repeatedly found examples of agency staff not following agency’s commercial partners and by the Department the agency’s own standards and guidance. of Homeland Security in the United States. The UK Border Agency has as one of its objectives In 2006, the independent monitor for entry clearance the implementation of fast and fair decisions, but the refusals, whose role was to oversee and review the visa concerns being raised in the debate this evening, which clearance system, reported on the inconsistencies and seem to have been shared at least in part by the lack of fairness faced by people when applying for independent monitor and now by the independent visas. The report was made following visits to different chief inspector, are whether speed, consistency and parts of the world, including Latin America. Some fairness have been achieved to the extent that they three years later, in 2009, the independent monitor should and whether the procedures and processes in reported on what she described as an organisation place are always geared to taking account of the fact under pressure and identified a number of issues for that there are very different categories of people making the UK Border Agency international group to address, applications who are seeking to spend widely differing including what one would have thought were fairly periods of time in the UK. basic points, such as ensuring that all the evidence is I am sure that when she responds the Minister taken into account when reaching a decision and will want to address the points that have been raised ensuring adequate data capture. this evening, including the extent to which the A report by the Home Affairs Committee in the recommendations and issues for action identified by other place in early 2009 indicated that the independent the independent monitor, and the independent chief monitor had said that refusals of UK visa applications inspector now that he has taken over the role, have or were taking too long and were unintelligible. She also have not been implemented and the progress that has expressed concerns to the committee that UKBA staff been made. No doubt the Minister will also wish to were predisposed to approving entry to the UK because say where the Government are with their review of the of the increased workload caused by visa refusals. We student visa system in the light of the criticisms of the have heard examples this evening from your Lordships student visa provisions. of apparently complex and time-consuming procedures More than 2,600 UK Border Agency staff are for application that appear to at least some of those directly involved in the overseas visa operation, of having to go through those procedures to be far from whom around 350 work in London. Visa sections user-friendly and lacking in easy contact with a human around the world employ just under 700 UK-based being who can give information or guidance about the staff who go overseas on short-term postings and just application. This, of course, is not some new or recent over 1,600 locally engaged staff. Following the recent development, as the reports from the independent comprehensive review, the UK Border Agency is facing monitor make clear. cuts of about 20 per cent and is expecting to take that From the point of view of the Government of the percentage out of the front line as well as making cuts day, over recent years there has been a desire to tighten in support services. There were 1,700 job cuts last year up border controls and to have procedures and processes and a further 5,000 are anticipated by the UK Border in place that are consistent and fair but achieve that Agency over the period of the spending review. Obviously, objective. Overseas, all visa applications are checked the UK Border Agency employs many more staff than against security, criminal and immigration watch lists those directly involved in the overseas visa operation, and the e-Borders system allows the agency to vet which is the principal focus of the debate this evening, passengers bound for the UK before they arrive. but will there be any job cuts among staff involved in the overseas visa operation and, if so, how many? Will While its focus is on protecting the UK by ensuring the Minister give an assurance that, whatever job cuts that harmful and illicit goods and people do not reach are made by the agency, there will be no adverse this country, the UK Border Agency—this has been impact on the quality of service and decision-making said in the debate—also has an important role in in the overseas visa operation, particularly in the light facilitating the smooth passage of legitimate travel of the concerns already expressed about the current and trade, which benefit the UK economy. In 2009-10 situation—this has been going on for some time—by the agency processed nearly 2.5 million visa applications, the independent monitor and the independent chief of which just over 2 million resulted in a visa being inspector? issued. The independent monitor identified in her final published report—her role has now been taken over by the independent chief inspector—that in just 8.14 pm under 85 per cent of 906 cases sampled the refusal The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Neville- notices were reasonable and provided correct information. Jones): My Lords, I join other Members of the House In his annual report for 2009-10, the independent in congratulating my noble friend on introducing the chief inspector states that he is now also reporting in subject of Latin America in the context of visas. That his capacity as the independent monitor for entry gives me the opportunity to say something about the clearance refusals and highlights four major recurring Government’s attitude to the relationship between this concerns, including the need for the UK Border Agency country and Latin America. 1369 UK Border Agency: Visas and Passports[11 JANUARY 2011] UK Border Agency: Visas and Passports 1370

The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, referred to the that those two countries generate a sufficient number Foreign Secretary’s recent speech at Canning House. of applications to justify having a hub on the ground. If noble Lords have not had a chance to read it, I Apart from that, it is a spoke system. should inform them that it took place on 9 November. It is indeed the case that individuals have to apply He said, in terms, that we will halt the decline in online. There is no alternative, but I will come to some Britain’s diplomatic presence in Latin America; of the services that are allied to that in a moment. I Britain’s retreat from the region is over and it is now understand the reservations that noble Lords have time for an advance to begin; we will seek intensified about the obligation to apply online and in English. and equal partnerships with countries in Latin America; All I can say is that, in the end, this will turn out to be and we will give much increased ministerial attention advantageous to those making applications in a country to them. I can testify to the fact, as I have been present where the internal distances are very great. I shall spell at such meetings, that there is indeed a plan for a series out why I think that is the case. Not everybody lives in of visits on different subjects to countries of the Buenos Aires in Argentina; they may live in Patagonia, region. The Foreign Secretary’s speech spells out in and so on. One has to be both realistic about the costs greater detail what that concept of an intensified that we are expected to bear as the supplier of visas, relationship should mean in practice. I hope that the but also about the relevant efficiencies for both sides House welcomes that as a starting point as it signifies of introducing modern technology into the system. I a determination on the part of the Government to understand that the elderly are not always able to cope develop a close relationship with, and make a greater with a computer, but usually there is a young relative impact on, an increasingly important part of the globe who can help them. So I do not think that we will with great prospects ahead of it. I am sure that in the depart from the notion that the application should be end that redounds to the security and prosperity of made online. this country. I am sure that noble Lords will say that our ability Once the application has been made online, there is to travel backwards and forwards should contribute to then the question of the provision of biometric data. that and that therefore travel should be made as easy A number of noble Lords have said that this requires a as possible. The answer to my own rhetorical question journey. In the case of Asuncion, where unfortunately is, “Of course and indeed; that must be the objective”. for some time now we have not had a mission, it would The current hub-and-spoke system was introduced require a visit to Buenos Aires, which is the nearest by our predecessor. I note the strictures of the noble point. One of the improvements that the Government Lord, Lord Rosser, on the system. Some cases that are introducing to countries where this problem have been cited by noble Lords undoubtedly took arises is the so-called mobile clinic, where people are place on our predecessor’s watch. That apart, we need available on the ground. This requires a suitcase-full to try to make this system as friendly and efficient as of kit in order to be able to take people’s biometrics. possible for both parties; that is, for the authorities in Increasingly we want to introduce mobile facilities, this country and those who wish to visit here. The most particularly in those places where otherwise a Government are conscious of this and so is the UKBA long journey, possibly even to another country, might as an agency of government. be required. I am not saying that that is going to be the case everywhere immediately, but the aim is certainly The noble Viscount, Lord Montgomery, quite rightly to make the system itself self-contained and more said that there are only nine countries which are visa efficient. countries for the purposes of short-stay visits. There is a wider visa regime—this is quite normal—for longer-stay Another complaint, not in fact mentioned this evening visits. For short-stay visits, only nine of the 20 or so but which I understand to be the case, is that while the sovereign republics in South America require a visa. online system is painless for both parties if all goes The Government were asked what the rationale was smoothly and there are no hitches in the application, if for the distinction between those countries that are there is something anomalous in an application it required to apply for a visa and those that are not. The might result in a rejection. One of the other things that basic reason is the reliability of their documents. There we are trying to do—and a lot of these services are now must be doubt about the authenticity of the application supplied by commercial partners of the Government—is in those countries where the documents being provided to improve this with the use of the telephone, and not to support the application are of doubtful reliability. to require payment for that; that is to say that I can This is the main reason why in some countries we have ring up and discuss this application with those processing to insist on a visa, although, as the noble Lord, Lord it for me. I hope that, over time, this will reduce the Avebury, noted in the case of Venezuela, if people are number of rejections that take place for reasons that able to supply biometric detail they would be exempt. the applicant feels they need to appeal against. Of Over time one hopes that the reliability of the documents course, there are rules about the basis on which appeals can be improved and that the number of countries can take place. Again, I come back to the point that where we demand a visa for a short stay can be we are trying to make the system efficient but also reduced. flexible and friendly. The aim must be a fast and fair process. I will spell In trying to improve the system that people are out what we are trying to do to achieve that. As noble using, we must also have regard to the efficiency of the Lords clearly understand, the hub-and-spoke system operation in New York, which is the processing centre has been operating since 2007. In Latin America, there for the Americas. I do not have to say that that are two hub countries: Columbia and Brazil. In Brazil, situation will not change. A number of noble Lords it is not in the capital; it is in Rio. The reason for this is asked whether we would nevertheless review the system. 1371 UK Border Agency: Visas and Passports[LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 1372

[BARONESS NEVILLE-JONES] Public Bodies Bill [HL] Within its terms, we shall do just that. The independent Committee (6th Day) (continued) inspector will shortly review the operations of the New York hub and the relationship between that hub 8.38 pm and its spokes. The review is within striking distance. If there are systemic problems with how the system is operating, I hope that this will be the opportunity for Amendment 43 change and improvement to take place. I reassure the Moved by Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town noble Lord, Lord Rosser, that notice is taken of what 43: Schedule 1, page 17, line 7, leave out “National Consumer the independent inspectors say and do in relation to Council (“Consumer Focus”).” the operations of the UK Border Agency. Apart from the regular review, if it becomes obvious Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town: My Lords, although that there is a problem with the system—and it is very I now have no involvement with Consumer Focus, I important that we learn of the various issues that was on the National Consumer Council—something noble Lords become aware of—we would try to see if that I gather I share with the noble Baroness, Lady it was a systemic problem or something that was in Wilcox—before its merger with Energywatch and need of correction. I assure noble Lords that under Postwatch. The merger in 2008 that created Consumer this Government the system will try not to be deaf but Focus, under the Consumers, Estate Agents and Redress will respond to complaints about the inadequacies of Act 2007, was the result of extensive parliamentary the system if clearly there is something that we can do debate. The merger was carefully designed—including about them. here in this House—and was implemented with good I hope that I have covered most of the points raised planning as well as wholehearted and widespread support. by noble Lords. I will give one statistic that I hope The merger has created a highly successful independent demonstrates that the system is both capable of champion for all consumers across England, Wales improvement and is improving. In 2009, when some of and Scotland and for postal services consumers in these examples of slow procedure took place, it took Northern Ireland. Consumer Focus has specific up to 25 days to process applications from Latin responsibilities for energy and postal services users—and, America. By July and August last year—12 months from next year, for water users in Scotland—and is later—the average time had fallen to nine days. I hope admired around the world as the leading voice for that noble Lords will accept that that is a significant consumers. improvement. I have a number of fears about the Government’s The agency is looking at one further thing that over intention to abolish Consumer Focus and to pass its time will improve the system. I cannot promise that it work to Citizens Advice. My concerns centre partly on will happen immediately, but it is being trialled. Instead the very different roles of Consumer Focus and Citizens of the individual having to lodge their passport or Advice and partly on the duties that Parliament gave travel document with British authorities while the to Consumer Focus. I also have concerns about the process takes place, which I accept can be inconvenient impact on devolution, on consumer affairs and on and may inhibit their travel plans, we aim to move over accountability as well as on the capacity of Citizens time towards a situation in which there can be a Advice. There is also a fundamental concern about the remote printout of the visa at the spoke, which will undermining of consumer protection. Consumer Focus mean that the document does not have to travel backwards is not an advice or complaint-handling body but a and forwards. That will be a material change which policy and advocacy voice across the whole of consumer depends to some extent on the technological capability affairs with a record in industry-wide investigations of the spoke, which is also something that, costs and achievements. I have real concern about how allowing, we intend to try to rectify. Consumer Focus’s work on behalf of consumers—the I am not able, I fear, to answer the question posed least represented group in our economy compared by the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, about staffing, but I with unions or business—will be maintained. shall write to him. I do not believe that in the case of Let me start by taking the example of a current the area we are talking about there will be moves of a consumer topic—this may sound an unusual issue—which kind that will decrease efficiency. I hope that I have is the volume by which bread and beer may be sold. answered the material points that have been raised. Over the Christmas Recess, David Willetts, the Minister in the other House, started his new year by suggesting My noble friend Lady Nicholson asked about Baghdad, the abolition of the regulations that provide the 400-gram which is outside the scope of this debate. It is fair to rule for the sale of bread and that require beer to be say that the circumstances reigning in Baghdad are sold in pints and wine to be sold in specified measures. exceptional. They are not typical of the system and I emphasise that the National Consumer Council and the safety of our staff has to be taken into account. Consumer Focus have never been pro regulation for That lies in the background, among other things, for the sake of it. Indeed, Consumer Focus has often the arrangements that may prevail there, although I championed and helped to obtain deregulation, for am not intimate with them. That is not typical of the example, over dispensing opticians and over the numbers hub-and-spoke system, or indeed of the conditions in of licensed hackney cabs. However, it seems to me that Latin America. in any such discussions on the issue of how bread is sold or whether beer should be sold only in pints, it 8.31 pm is absolutely right that the voice of the consumer is Sitting suspended. heard. 1373 Public Bodies Bill [HL][11 JANUARY 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 1374

On such matters, producers will have their own My second question is on Consumer Focus’s powers. view, whether that is about the profit that they can Consumer Focus has significant powers, such as the make or the freedom to innovate—which probably ability to seek information from business and regulators. means selling smaller loaves. Government will have a It is not clear that Citizens Advice is able to take on view on whether, in the case of beer and whisky, a such powers. Will government retain such powers to proposed change could affect the tax take, or, in the itself, with Citizens Advice having to apply in order to case of bread, on the cost of monitoring compliance. use them? Consumer Focus has the right to confidential Regulators will have a view on competition and whether information from business, regulators, government, rules ease or hamper new entrants. However, where is trading standards and the OFT. Will those powers, the voice of the consumer without Consumer Focus? including access to confidential commercial information, An experienced trading standards officer wrote to me be passed to Citizens Advice? Consumer Focus can when he heard about the possibility of bread quantities investigate matters affecting individual consumers or being changed and all those safeguards going. He said raise wider issues for consumers across the economy, that he could not imagine that any well informed including the public services. Will those powers pass to consumer would call for those changes. I do not know Citizens Advice? Where would Citizens Advice get the whether he is right or wrong, but I know that there expertise to undertake such market studies? Consumer needs to be a body that will obtain the views of Focus provides advice to government, regulatory bodies, consumers and reflect those in the debate. the European Commission and other parties. Will Citizens Advice is much more focused on providing Citizens Advice be tasked with that role and given the advice and guidance to individuals who come through resources to undertake it? Consumer Focus has access the doors of citizens advice bureaux. Theirs is not the to information from the OFT, Ofgem, Postcomm, role of looking at market structures and at future Ofwat and any partnership, corporate body or person, regulation, in which Consumer Focus—independent including in the public sector, that supplies goods or of Government and with a specific consumer interest—is services. Will Citizens Advice be allowed access to so expert. such information? Consumer Focus has the power to Bread is just one current issue that requires what make supercomplaints where markets are failing Consumer Focus can contribute to our national life, consumers. Will that power, and the resources, be but another historic example is that of ombudsmen. passed to Citizens Advice? Consumer Focus—then the National Consumer Council, Thirdly, I turn to devolution. The 2007 Act requires which was possibly even chaired at the time by the Consumer Focus to establish committees for Scotland noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox—made one of its most and Wales and a postal services committee for Northern significant achievements for consumers by its original Ireland. Under the Government’s proposals in this support for the concept of ombudsmen, which we all Bill, Consumer Focus will be broken up because Citizens now take for granted. The National Consumer Council Advice operates in England and Wales only. Indeed, saw not only how consumers, once they knew that Citizens Advice has only a very small office in Wales, they could get their complaints heard and assessed with very little policy capacity. That is no criticism—it independently, would have more confidence in the reflects the fact that Citizens Advice does a very product or service but how businesses could learn different job from Consumer Focus—but it means from good systems of complaint handling and how there are serious concerns in Wales about whether regulators or the press could judge industries or individual Citizens Advice can take on the work. Consumer suppliers from such intelligence. The ombudsman system Focus Wales exercises statutory functions conferred has been copied worldwide, but the credit for this on Consumer Focus in so far as they are exercisable in forward-looking advance for consumers must lie with Wales. The Wales committee listens to consumers and the NCC as was. We risk losing that service to consumers stakeholders in Wales about what is important to by placing the policy function within an organisation them and then decides its work plan for Wales. How whose local funding is seriously stretched and whose will the Government ensure that the decision-making core function is to help those who come through its continues to be devolved to Wales by Citizens Advice? doors rather than to plan systems for decades ahead. How will the Government ensure that Citizens Advice in Wales has the capacity to continue the excellent 8.45 pm advocacy and policy work of Consumer Focus Wales? I have six questions, to which I hope we may get There are similar worries in Scotland, where Citizens some answers. The first is on Consumer Focus’s duties. Advice Scotland is quite separate from Citizens Advice Under the 2007 Act passed by this House, Consumer in England and Wales. There is a real fear that Citizens Focus must have regard to the interests of vulnerable Advice Scotland will not be able to take on Consumer consumers, including the disabled or chronically sick, Focus Scotland’s role and expertise. Scottish consumer pensioners, people on low incomes and those in rural champions are particularly anxious. One of them wrote areas. The organisation must investigate complaints to me. She said: from individuals on electricity disconnections and can “There is a great deal of concern here in Scotland where make representations to the provider. Consumer Focus Consumer Focus has a high profile and reputation. I work with refers enforcement matters to Ofgem and licence breaches both Consumer Focus and Citizens Advice and feel that they are to Postcomm on behalf of users. Its annual report completely different. I just hope that the Government do not must be laid before Parliament and Ministers. My think, ‘Aha, CAB equal volunteers equal cheap’. Volunteers can question to the Minister is: what happens if Citizens do a wonderful job, but they must be properly supported”. Advice—a charity over which the Government can If I was being polite, I would say that there was exercise no power—fails to carry out those statutory little consultation, but I think that the truth is that duties that were put in place to protect consumers? there was no consultation—there was certainly no 1375 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 1376

[BARONESS HAYTER OF KENTISH TOWN] under no obligation to take on Consumer Focus’s role consultation with Cardiff and very little with Edinburgh and there is no guarantee that it could take on the —before the decision was taken that we see in the Bill. watchdog’s work. In her words, The Scottish Government have started to look at “We can’t make offers to consumers on what we can do for alternative solutions, as has the Welsh Assembly, but them and then fail on the offer”. the truth is that no one outside Whitehall—indeed, no For her, funding is the crux, as some local authorities one outside BIS and the Cabinet Office, and I am not believe it is easier to cut grants to bodies such as 100 per cent sure about BIS—thinks that the abolition Citizens Advice than to make their own staff redundant. of Consumer Focus makes sense. She has problems and queries about the money for the Consumer Focus is UK wide, with a robust devolved organisation’s existing funding, let alone what will structure and a strong European and global role. The happen when it takes on this extra chunk of work. Government’s plans would result in there being no UK-wide consumer body. The emphasis on localism, However, my questions go further than the funding with no voice on UK or EU matters, is a backward and encompass the individual resources, motivations, step in this regard, with the danger that British consumers priorities and powers, all of which are needed if consumers will lose out once our international reputation was are not to be vulnerable to the whims of the market. undermined. I ask the Minister whether the Government That brings me to my sixth and final point, which is have given any consideration to that aspect. about concern for consumers. Is the real reason behind the Government’s intention to abolish Consumer Focus My fourth issue is accountability. Consumer Focus simply a lack of support for consumer protection? is subject to judicial review, falls within the remit of Citizens Advice will be able to do the job only if it is the Parliamentary Ombudsman and is audited by the given the resources, but Consumer Focus has already NAO. Consumer Focus’s chief executive is an accounting had its budget cut by 17 per cent, with more cuts officer who is personally and directly accountable to coming next year. There is no sign that Citizens Advice Parliament. The Government claim that this “bonfire will be given sufficient extra money to take over the of the quangos”would increase accountability. However, areas vacated by Consumer Focus and no decision has transferring Consumer Focus functions from a body been made on whether Citizens Advice will get the that is accountable to Parliament to a charity that is legal powers to demand information from companies. accountable only to its board will reduce public Those powers were used by Consumer Focus to win a accountability. Should this independent charity fail £17 million rebate for consumers from npower and a consumers, the Government would have no power to £15 million saving for ISA investors. My fear is that remove its chair or officers and Parliament would have the Government are ending a 35-year tradition of no right to examine its plans, reports or activities. Is supporting a body that has legal powers to win consumers that the Minister’s definition of increased accountability? a fair deal in markets that are dominated by the Fifthly, does Citizens Advice have the capacity to interests of producers. Citizens Advice will have its take over these very different functions? I am a great hands full taking on Consumer Focus’s tasks and admirer of Citizens Advice for the advice that it offers coping with the increased demands made of its bureaux to those who come through its doors. Citizens Advice alongside reduced funding. Citizens Advice is a federation engages thousands of volunteers who help millions of of 300 individual charities. Yes, it is locally responsive, our citizens, but it is completely different from Consumer but consumer protection is essentially national and Focus. Consumer Focus has a track record of engaging European, and perhaps that is what the Government with regulators and market participants on the operation do not like. It is not apparent how this move and the of markets and regulated sectors. Consumer Focus resulting cutbacks will deliver a strengthened consumer has substantial sectorial expertise, plus the ability to regime. apply lessons across the economy. It is true that Citizens For reasons of time, I cannot go through all that Advice can derive intelligence from the aggregation has been said about the proposal, but my view has and analysis of client experience, but it conducts only been echoed through all the press coverage of this a handful of consumer research exercises each year, in debate. The Daily Mail said: contrast to the 60 research projects that are conducted by Consumer Focus annually. “Money Mail has no time for cash-wasting quangos … However, Consumer Focus has proved a worthwhile champion for the The Citizens Advice mission derives from experience downtrodden consumer. It has the strength, resources and power of disadvantaged and vulnerable consumers, whereas to take on large organisations in a way that others such as Consumer Focus is concerned with the operation of Citizens Advice … cannot. Big business can call upon billions of markets generally and with responsibility for all consumers. pounds in any fight against the consumer, whereas Consumer In addition, citizens advice bureaux face a funding Focus costs a mere £14 million … if there is any way it can be crisis just as they are being hit by an unprecedented saved, then it should be”. increase in demand. Some CABs are seeing their local Martin Lewis said: authority funding being cut by two thirds, while the “This is a bonkers move. To remove an organisation that has number of clients seeking help with debt, benefits and made consumers £80 million … leaves us without any state-funded homelessness has doubled. Gillian Guy, the chief executive body fighting for consumers. I’m a big fan of Citizens Advice, but of Citizens Advice, has warned of the risk to the most it’s a charity that focuses on individual advice, not attacking the vulnerable in the Government’s benefit changes and minutiae of public policy. … The focus and power Consumer Focus had to ask questions of big business and big government predicts that the cuts to legal aid will affect citizens were integral to supporting consumers and will be a big loss”. advice bureaux. Indeed, local infrastructure is already in danger of collapse in many areas. Gillian Guy has The Daily Telegraph asked: also warned the Government that her organisation is “Who will protect us now from being ripped off?”. 1377 Public Bodies Bill [HL][11 JANUARY 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 1378

The Independent judged that the result would be, for the establishment of a membership organisation, “Consumers burned in the bonfire of the quangos”. now Which?, but also for the National Consumer The Observer questioned the wisdom of, Council and for a consumer congress. That was the “leaving the public to rely on volunteers to follow up complaints high noon of the corporate state and he and others over exorbitant gas and electricity bills”. saw that a representation of consumers alongside The Times said: employers and representatives of workers in trade “Abolishing Consumer Focus is mad”. unions was an important part of that structure. But On behalf of all consumers, therefore, I beg to the NCC has developed through changes in government move this amendment. policy and institutions and through the disappearance of the nationalised industries. It has survived through 9pm all this. The regime of the noble Baroness, Lady Thatcher, quite rightly looked at the possibility of dropping the Lord Whitty: My Lords, I strongly support my NCC but backed away from it. It is not a route which noble friend’s amendment. The way in which she has this Government, in an attempt to create the big constructed her argument in terms of six precise questions society and to engage with groups such as consumers, behoves the Government to give a clear answer, either ought to be going down today unless there is more to tonight or in writing, as to how they see the future for the story than we have yet seen. consumer protection in the regime they are proposing here. What happened in the intervening years since 1975 I declare a past interest in that up until last month I is that we had a whole construction of different consumer was the chair of Consumer Focus. I am now much bodies as well as the NCC. The privatisation and freer to say what I think. It was a great experience, liberalisation of nationalised industries led to consumer both there and at the NCC. I am extremely pleased to bodies being set up in different sectors, on a different see that the Minister replying is one of my predecessors basis and in many cases with different forms of funding. and that one of her predecessors is also with us—the There was a confusing picture and the previous noble Baroness, Lady Oppenheim-Barnes. I am pleased Government quite correctly decided that they needed to see them because they will know what we are to address that and bring a lot of those bodies together talking about. I am sorry for the Minister, however, in Consumer Focus. The previous Government did because the part that will suffer most from the loss of not go as far as they intended, partly because of Consumer Focus is the part that was covered by the internal Whitehall barriers and partly because there old NCC. The energy and post will have to survive in was some resistance from some of the industries. But some form or other. Politically, it is not possible for they took a significant step in the right direction. It is the Government entirely to retreat from those areas. clear that Consumer Focus made the best of a bad job What will go will be the more general work on consumer in the sense that we were covering only part of the protection, consumer law, the international dimension, consumer representation that was laid down in statute as my noble friend mentioned, and looking at markets and paid for, in part at least, by taxpayers or by which are not necessarily at the top of the Government’s statutorily laid down levies in one form or another on agenda but which are at the heart of the experience of the other sectors. the average consumer and the most vulnerable consumer. Rationalisation, therefore, was sensible. At one point The bit of paper which the Government have provided I thought that the Government would come up with as justification for this—I am grateful that we have a a rationalised body, pulling together several of the piece of paper—is deeply misleading. It says that the institutions that existed into something like Consumer headline decision is to, Focus. They need not have kept the name but could “Abolish, transfer functions to Citizens Advice and Citizens have created a new and wider body. Had that happened Advice Scotland”, I would have been a strong supporter. I do not necessarily and that aim of the reform is to, think that the status quo is defensible or the best “rationalise the consumer protection landscape and reduce the possible representation of consumer interests in the number of bodies”. best possible world. But they did not do that. Instead, Actually, the Bill does none of that. It does not they seem to have backed off the rationalisation, provide for any transfer, nor does it provide for any and this Bill has different bits of consumer interest rationalisation. I appreciate that the department conducted representation in different schedules. For example, a major consultation in relation to the consumer landscape whereas Consumer Focus is in Schedule 1 for abolition, and was considering several propositions in terms of the Consumer Council for Water is in Schedule 7 for rationalisation. I agree with the view of the previous limbo and Passenger Focus is in Schedule 3 and Government and the current Government that some Schedule 5. I am not entirely clear what will happen to rationalisation was necessary but this Bill does not that. There has been some threat about what will provide it. Instead, it confuses the position, as I shall happen to the consumer panels within regulators, go on to argue. including the one that my noble friend chairs in the My noble friend outlined the recent history of the legal services area. There is no clarity on how any construction of Consumer Focus out of the National rationalisation will take place. What is stated here as Consumer Council, Energywatch and Postwatch. There the main aim of this reform, rationalisation, is not is, of course, a much longer history to which she also provided for within the Bill. Instead, further confusion alluded. The late Lord Young—by whom I do not is provided for. mean my noble friend on the Front Bench but Lord Consumer Focus has carried out functions on behalf Young of Dartington—was a progenitor of so much of vulnerable consumers and the average consumer— in the consumer field and in 1975 he argued not only because average consumers and even quite well-off 1379 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 1380

[LORD WHITTY] if not a full one. There has been no such compensating consumers are often vulnerable in certain circumstances. allocation to Citizens Advice which, as my noble I am always pretty vulnerable when I am dealing friend said, is under severe financial pressure itself with a garage mechanic. Most people of my age and because of the cutbacks by local authorities. There is technological illiteracy are pretty vulnerable to people no increase in the central government grant to Citizens arguing on intellectual property or new technology, Advice. It is not a transfer in terms of money because and I know that that is also an interest of the noble the money is simply being cut. The note we have been Baroness. It is not just the most vulnerable who we provided with says that the full transfer will not take represent but the most vulnerable are probably likely place until 2013. By 2013, the budget will be less than to lose out most from these changes. 20 per cent of what it was last year. In terms of However, I will not argue with the Government that resources, what is there to transfer? this body should always be in the public sector. There There is also the question of transfer of powers, are arguments for moving it into the third sector. I am which are significant in relation to information. It is reinforced in that view by the attitude that the Government not clear which powers the Government intend to have taken to quangos in general—by not distinguishing transfer or which powers Citizens Advice could accept between the role of quangos. Quangos are not allowed in view of its charitable status and its need primarily to lobby the Government and make public statements to act in pursuit of its charitable objectives. Nor is it that are critical of government policy. It is difficult to clear that the Government can allocate powers of that do that when you are in the tradition of the NCC and nature to what is after all a private body without at Consumer Focus. You are always criticising or trying least some degree of tendering process or whatever. to improve government policy, the policy of regulators The Government’s intentions here have always been as well as the policy of public service providers. Therefore, unclear. I have heard it said that there are bodies it is quite difficult to maintain a degree of silence in other than Citizens Advice which could take these that context. In that sense, it might be more sensible to powers. I do not see them queuing up but maybe that move it into the third sector. It would still require is what is behind the Government’s intentions. At the significant public support and the Government recognise moment it is not clear that the powers would be that. Unfortunately, they are not providing that support. transferred or that any of the expertise represented by What is likely to happen is that two-thirds of the the staff would be transferred. It has not been clarified activity of Consumer Focus will be in energy and post. whether TUPE applies. My Amendment 105A deals Legislation going through Parliament reinforces that with that aspect more generally. If the budgets are cut role. In the Energy Bill—particularly in relation to the significantly then there will not be any staff left to green deal—which had its Second Reading in this transfer. That intellectual asset would disappear with House just before Christmas, there are functions for the staff. Consumer Focus inherited from Energy Watch and a None of this is a criticism of Citizens Advice, which recognition by DECC and Ofgem that there is a huge does a fantastic job in many respects under growing role for a consumer representative body within this constraints and pressure for its services. There is little area. I do not think any government would be allowed that Citizens Advice does that duplicates the work of by their supporters in the Commons let alone by the Consumer Focus, despite what has been said. I would opposition to get rid of the energy role. I think that be surprised if 10 per cent of the non-energy, non-post will largely survive. The post role will probably also budget is in any sense duplicated. Even in the sectors survive because of the present propositions for the where we both work, we do different things. A savings future of the postal service and Post Office network. I rationalisation to avoid duplication is not a reasonable do not expect the Government to be hugely generous justification for this. in providing for consumer representation in those Citizens Advice will find it difficult to take on these areas but I believe it would be politically difficult for roles. Nothing in the experience of Citizens Advice them drastically to cut the support they give to consumer relates to the intense relationship that we have on representation, whether the body is in the public sector energy and post with the regulators, with the energy or in the third sector. companies and with Royal Mail or the degree of That leaves the rest of the economy. Consumer knowledge of those markets that has been established Focus, inheriting this from the NCC, looks at consumer over the years. I therefore think that Citizens Advice protection, customer service, consumer law, the general would have to create a whole new division if it was to principles of regulation in this area, the EU level take on the energy and post functions. It will be representation to which my noble friend referred and necessary for the Government to provide for that in the international dimension of it. The reputation that some form. Consumer Focus and its predecessors have in this area is an important asset. My noble friend referred to 9.15 pm cuts in the budget here. The previous year’s budget for I would have been happy—well, happier—had the consumers in the rest of the economy, outside energy Government said that Consumer Focus needs to move and post, is just over £5 million. That is going to be into the third sector, full stop. That would have made cut this year by about 30 per cent and indications are sense. It would have allowed for greater flexibility. It that next year it will be cut by something close to would have allowed for greater independence and 80 per cent. freedom to say what we think under the new regime If it is intended to do that, and to switch this to and it would have allowed for some future for the Citizens Advice, we would expect some concomitant intellectual capital that we have in our staff and in our increase in the allocation to Citizens Advice—a partial history. However, that is not what they have said and it 1381 Public Bodies Bill [HL][11 JANUARY 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 1382 is not what this Bill provides for. This Bill provides for reply today. Each of them served Governments of abolition, full stop. It is misleading to say that this is a varying political hues, not necessarily with the politics transfer; it is an abolition. that they adhered to. The only equivalent that I can find in this Bill is one The National Consumer Council always researched that we were discussing before dinner—at least in and campaigned on a variety of consumer issues and passing—and that is British Waterways. British Waterways we at the Office of Fair Trading certainly found its is to move from being a state body to being a charitable work and its publications to be of tremendous value. or trust structure in the third sector. I approve of The coalition Government seem to intend—I think that—I think that it is a good move. As a consequence, that we would all agree that nothing is all that clear at however, British Waterways is not scheduled for abolition. this present stage of flux—that the Office of Fair It is in Schedule 5 as a transfer and I think probably in Trading’s consumer enforcement powers should be one of the other schedules dealing with transfer of transferred to the local authorities’ trading standards funding. services, for which I have the highest admiration. They It would be more logical, given the Government’s do an excellent job at the moment and could do more. objectives, to remove Consumer Focus from Schedule The Consumer Direct line will go to Citizens Advice. 1 and to place it in Schedule 5. When we come to I do not want to examine closely this evening the Schedule 5, we should indicate that the transfer intended problems that this proposal gives rise to, but the is a transfer to Citizens Advice and it is a transfer of abolition of the National Consumer Council or Consumer powers, of budgets and of at least some of the staff. Focus—with the Postwatch and Energywatch powers That would be more logical from the Government’s that it has been given in more recent years—raises at position than the abolition listing that we have in once the issue of who is to perform the powerful Schedule 1. and important high-quality research and advocacy I therefore strongly support my noble friend’s campaigning role, if anyone is. It seems—no doubt the amendment and hope that the Government think Government have had to search around to see who again before we return to this on Report and provide they can say will take on these roles—that the answer the House with more coherent reasoning as to what is Citizens Advice. Of course, I share the view of my they are intending to do, how Citizens Advice would noble friends Lady Hayter and Lord Whitty that pick it up or what alternatives there are. Citizens Advice is something of which everybody in I was going to touch on one other major issue— this country, whatever their politics, must be hugely devolution—but my noble friend has dealt with it proud. It gives advice across a whole range of things—not fully. That is also a complication that the Government just consumer matters but welfare matters and all will have to face up to. I will add one thing to what she sorts of things. said on Northern Ireland, and I declare a non-pecuniary However, I noticed recently at a meeting that the chief interest as I was chair of an advisory body to the executive of the charity Citizens Advice—I emphasise Consumer Council for Northern Ireland. The remaining that it is a charity—Gillian Guy, whom my noble function of Consumer Focus in Northern Ireland will friend mentioned, has bravely expressed delight at Her be transferred into the Consumer Council for Northern Majesty’s Government indicating confidence in Citizens Ireland, which is a body for the whole Province. That Advice to the extent that it is to be given those extra is what Consumer Focus should be, covering the whole powers now held by the National Consumer Council. range of the economy, including water, transport and It admits that it will need more finance; that is always energy—the lot. That is what we really need in the more easily said than done, of course. The Minister UK. I do not care that much whether it is a private will correct me if I am wrong but, as far as I can see, third sector body or a state body—an NDPB—but I Citizens Advice has been given very little reassurance, strongly resent the intention to abolish it, which is if any, that adequate finance will be available to provide what this Bill, as it stands, is about. it with the expertise that it would otherwise lack or the other things that it must need in order to replicate in Lord Borrie: My Lords, I support the amendment any way the work of the National Consumer Council. proposed by my noble friends Lady Hayter and Lord The Government seem to have ignored the value Whitty. I have known this body very well for a long that the National Consumer Council has in statutory time. It was created in 1975, which was precisely a year powers and expertise. Consumer Focus and the National before I became head of the Office of Fair Trading. Consumer Council have built up expertise and developed We often had to work together, although I should not statutory powers over the years. The noble Baroness say “had to work together”, as it was a pleasure to do has already raised this point, but will the Government so. The NCC operated under the chairmanship of give or be willing to give to a charity the sort of people of different political beliefs, but it always had statutory powers that they and successive Governments a strong reputation for the quality of its research have been willing to give to the National Consumer and its work and it was beneficial that its influence Council? Will the Government give a charity statutory should be felt at every level of government. It has, as I powers to demand information from companies, which indicated, had very different chairmanships, including is essential if that charity wants to investigate the Michael Young, the Labour Peer Lord Young of company and its behaviour towards consumers? There Dartington; the noble Baroness, Lady Oppenheim- is, as far as I can see at the moment, no reassurance on Barnes, who had been a Minister in charge of consumer that score at all. affairs at the DTI; Michael Montague, the Labour The idea of the National Consumer Council way Peer; and not only the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, but back in 1975 was very ambitious. It was to give the the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, who is going to consumer a voice equal to that of the employer in the 1383 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 1384

[LORD BORRIE] consumer protection and advice because I believe that CBI and the worker in the TUC—to exaggerate in the things have not gone well for consumers in recent manner of the speeches of the day. It was probably years. If the recession continues and things do not always a bit of an overstatement and an overambitious improve, it will be equally bad for consumers who are thing to try to achieve, but the National Consumer a very important part of our citizenry. In fact, we are Council has over a quarter of a century and more all consumers and need looking after. The Government certainly done a great deal for the consumer, which should take this opportunity to ensure that consumers would be missing if it disappeared. are cared for individually and should show great respect Finally—I say this only in passing, because I do not towards, and support for, Citizens Advice. wish to emphasise it—I do not agree with the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, about charities and the third sector 9.30 pm perhaps being able to do this work just as well as a Baroness Oppenheim-Barnes: I remind the noble statutory body. I doubt it. I would prefer to speak on Baroness that the National Consumer Council did not the basis that I agree entirely with the amendment— give, and was not created to give, individual advice to namely, that the NCC should not be among those consumers. Some considered that a great drawback. public bodies listed for abolition. The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, rightly drew attention to the Consumer Council for Northern Ireland, which Baroness Deech: My Lords, I speak with no expertise did indeed provide that service—I was always extremely but as a down-trodden consumer, which is probably envious of the fact that it was able to do so—and was how many people in this House see themselves. I a far better organisation as a result. To combine therefore have the greatest admiration for the work consumer research and services with CABs, which can that has been done for years by the noble Baroness, give advice or, indeed, with the organisation to which Lady Hayter, and others in this House who have the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, has referred, would be a fought for consumers. However, things have never step forward, not a step back. been worse. Just look at the past few months. What agony it has been to be a rail or airport passenger, to Baroness Deech: The noble Baroness is, of course, suffer from the delays in post and from the inefficiencies right. It seems to me, as a consumer, that the need for of our garbage collection, to suffer at the hands of the individual advice is very great and will become greater. banks and pension providers. I could go on. It seems There is perhaps less of a need for research at the to me that the voice of the individual consumer is not moment but the nation is replete with individual sector- being heard; that we need more individual voices, less specific consumer bodies and national ones. There ideology and fewer vested interests. should be rationalisation. As I say, I am not an expert but I see a great need for individual advice and perhaps This Bill has come under more attack than perhaps a slightly lesser need at the moment for research. any Bill that I remember in recent years. But if it can Noble Lords who have been involved in this field for result in a thorough shake-up and rationalisation of years, as the noble Baroness has been, have made us all consumer matters, it will be a good thing. Citizens very much aware of the needs of consumers. To some Advice is an institution of which we are all proud and extent a battle has been won but things have been bad which has been run on a shoe string. There will be in recent months. I suspect that they may get worse for even more demands on its services in future years the individual in the future. because of the cuts in legal aid. With my legal hat on I can see that the citizens advice bureaux will have an Lord Berkeley: Is the noble Baroness aware that the enormously important part to play as more and more Passengers’ Council is included in Schedule 7, and is people, unable to afford legal advice, go to them. They therefore due for abolition, transfer or heaven knows need every support that we can give them. If there was what? That body is also funded by the Government at an undertaking that the 154 staff apparently working present and looks after rail and bus passengers. Does for Consumer Focus, and its £13.9 million of funding, she have any views on whether the rationalisation were to move over to Citizens Advice, it would offer should encompass that or whether bus and rail passenger some reassurance. issues should be taken over by a consumer organisation? In many respects things have changed regarding its lack of statutory powers. Data protection and freedom Baroness Deech: The noble Lord makes a good of information legislation have enabled individuals to point. I am a long suffering commuter and I will not find out more than was the case in the past about the bore the House with my experiences on rail and bus. I way that their consumer affairs are being handled. do not feel that the voice of the consumer has been However, as an outside observer, it seems to me that properly heard. I have stood on Oxford railway station there are too many bodies in this field. Google and and argued with the guards in relation to the passenger you will find hundreds of consumer panels and consumer charter when the queues were too long and they would advice organisations. Consumer Direct lists about 50 not let us on. I am not convinced that rail passengers organisations with which it co-operates. There must be are well protected at the moment. This passenger body room for some rationalisation and saving. There must exists but things are bad on the ground. I just hope be a way in which the voice of women, passengers, that someone more expert than me can do more for landlords and tenants—and not so much the voice of those such as myself who have suffered. politicians, other regulators and so on—can be heard. I would support any move resulting from this Bill that Lord Maclennan of Rogart: My Lords, this has been would enable the Government to look—not ideologically an authoritative debate which has brought into the but in helping the individual—at the whole field of discussion on the future of consumer protection the 1385 Public Bodies Bill [HL][11 JANUARY 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 1386 voices of those who have given great public service in not in the forefront of people’s imaginations or discussions the field and who speak from direct knowledge. My and we need to get it there again. It is of interest that personal credentials are somewhat dated although I in 1974, at a time of economic crisis, the Labour was a Minister at the Department of Prices and Consumer Government established a separate department of state Protection when the National Consumer Council was to try to deal with these matters. That was taking upon established in 1975. My concern about the inclusion of government responsibility and accountability.I remember Consumer Focus in Schedule 1 reflects concerns that well having to answer questions about these matters. have been expressed across the Committee: namely, My noble friend was a very distinguished predecessor. that it is not clear how the functions exercised by that body, which were endorsed by Parliament as recently Baroness Oppenheim-Barnes: My noble friend is as three years ago, should be redistributed. It has been almost bound to have to add that the Department of suggested that the work of Consumer Focus should Prices and Consumer Affairs was created by a pass to Citizens Advice. I am bound to say that in its Government—of whom he was the Minister for Prices present form it would not seem to me sensible to pass and Consumer Affairs—that presided over an inflation the work of the NCC to the Citizens Advice network. rate of more than 26 per cent, which we inherited. That body draws its strength from its localism, from its ability to speak for the individual and from its selfless commitment to work with all the other agencies, Lord Maclennan of Rogart: My noble friend must tribunals and sources of legal advice to amplify the have been momentarily nodding during the part of my effectiveness of individual citizen protection. The work speech in which I referred to inflation of 26 per cent. I of the NCC has always been very different. I do not was about to refer to the embarrassment of having to believe that a marriage between these two bodies answer questions about the prices of fundamental would work. In fact, it would probably lead to a items in the domestic budget at that time. subsequent divorce. Before Parliament takes a final decision on this, we Lord Greaves: My Lords, if we are now going into need to have much greater exposure of the thinking history, it should be put on record that the inflation across government about how consumers should be rate, which peaked at 26 per cent, was going down at a protected, particularly in the times in which we are substantial rate by the 1979 election after the beneficial living. influence of the Lib-Lab pact. When the NCC was set up, inflation was rising to the peak of 26 per cent. We are not in that situation at Lord Maclennan of Rogart: I am not trying to present, but we see inflation rising by an amount resurrect history tonight, but merely to call in aid which is approximately twice that predicted by the some of the relevant factors. It is true that inflation Bank of England a year ago. There are very clear dropped to 10 per cent, but that is still more than three threats to individual consumers in the present economic times what it is at present. climate. The voices of those consumers will be represented I agree that the nexus and concatenation of consumer in their individual difficulties and Citizens Advice protection bodies played a considerable role in helping has a very great role to play in that. Its work will be to focus policy-making on what was necessary. I appeal enormously added to by the changes in legal aid which to the Government to recognise the inadequacy of the have been adumbrated—indeed announced—by the present proposals for change. The Bill is primarily Government. But it does not seem to me to be an about winding up bodies, not about indicating what is organisation that is at all suitable for work which to take their place. That is one of its defects. It is an requires probing, research and access to information attempt to make things possible, but it will not command which, notwithstanding the changes in freedom of the approval of Parliament if we do not know what information and data protection, is still very hard to are to be the alternatives, and if we are not satisfied grapple with. It is even harder to influence the way that they are satisfactory and will deliver what the power is exercised by those commercial bodies that bodies that are for the chop have delivered. No one have it. can pretend that this body has passed its sell-by date I am not attempting to turn back the clock. I am or ceased to have a useful potential purpose in future. susceptible to the arguments that the noble Lord, I say yes to rationalisation and reorganisation—but let Lord Whitty, made earlier that there could be a number us know how it is to be done. of different ways of ensuring that the voice of consumers is expressed. I am clear, however, that an ad hoc active Lord Liddle: My Lords, briefly, I support the citizenship role cannot provide that. It needs to be amendment. We have had an excellent debate. I cannot professional; it needs to be committed; it needs to be believe that the Minister, who knows a lot about this knowledgeable; and it needs to be authoritative if it is subject, is not somewhat uneasy in the light of what going to influence policy judgments. We have that at she has heard. We have had excellent contributions present. We have an authoritative body. If a complete from my noble friends Lady Hayter, Lord Whitty and rethink of consumer protection is required, then I Lord Borrie, and from the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, profoundly hope that no steps will be taken to implement who really know their stuff in this area, as I know she any change of this kind unless and until the voices does. If she is thinking about how to win an argument around the industry and around the country have been within government for a change of policy on this issue, thoroughly tapped into and collated, and a consensus perhaps I may suggest that abolishing the National is arrived at how best to give structure to the change. I Consumer Council—Consumer Focus—is a deeply do not think that that is impossible, but at present it is anti-big society move. If you look at the history of the 1387 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 1388

[LORD LIDDLE] consumer challenges will be handled by one or more dedicated, consumer movement in Britain, you will see that in the expert teams, within Trading Standards with work co-ordinated 1950s there was a tremendous growth of interest in nationally for this purpose”. consumerism on the part of social democrats, such as Perhaps the Minister in her reply can expand on that the late Lord Young of Dartington and some of the national role of trading standards. It also states: progressives from the Conservative Party who wanted “In respect of Scotland and Wales, specific arrangements may to see a different kind of politics from the clash need to be made”. between employers and trade unions, and who wanted a third voice—a consumer voice—to be represented. In the light of this debate, that is perhaps a bit of an understatement. 9.45 pm I am conscious of the time, so I will cut my contribution There was the establishment of Which? magazine much shorter than I had intended—for which relief, and the Good Food Guide—voluntary efforts to try to much thanks; I see the Minister nodding. I cannot represent the consumer. It quickly became evident help remembering, given the history of inflation that that there was a collective action problem. If you were we have heard tonight, negotiating a wage increase of to have an effective voice for the consumer you could about 23 per cent during that period in the 1970s. I not just do this through, as it were, voluntary initiative was reminded of those heady days. and activity; you had to have a public institution that I shall make a couple of quick points in summation. would represent consumer interests that had the expertise At the moment, Consumer Focus receives approximately and capabilities so to do. By abolishing Consumer one-third of its funding from BIS. The remainder is Focus we are taking away that ability for collective gained from a mixture of licence funding paid by action which must supplement individual complaints energy suppliers and the postal industry and funds and other initiatives. The Citizens Advice movement is that it may raise itself—for example, through externally basically about representing individuals and dealing funded projects. I add my voice to the cause and ask with individual problems rather than collective action. the Government whether they yet know how much it I do not see an effective consumer voice as being will cost to outsource those services to a local community anti-business or as an expensive quango that operates group. What proportion of that money will come from against business. I see it as good for business. Something the Government? How will the plan help to ensure that represents the consumer effectively is very good that the body performing those functions is more for business. I would make a strong argument inside accountable? A thread through what, as a noble Lord the Government that it is time to rethink. I hope that already said, has been an authoritative and interesting in the light of what she has heard, the Minister will be debate is that question of accountability either to the prepared to do that. people that the body seeks to serve or to the funding providers—in the case of the Government, the funding Lord Young of Norwood Green: As a number of my providers being the British public. In the interests of noble friends have said, there are real concerns about time, I will let the Minister respond. the viability of the coalition Government’s proposals on the vital issue of consumer representation. As my noble friend Lady Hayter reminded us, Consumer Baroness Wilcox: My Lords, this has been an amazing Focus was created under the Consumers, Estate Agents debate. I knew that it would take some time, but I hope and Redress Act 2007. It was a new organisation, that the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, will be pleased carefully designed with good planning and as a result at the amount of time and thought that has been put was implemented with widespread support. It has into some of the speeches heard here tonight—I know become the acknowledged champion for consumers in that I have been. It has been a real trip down memory England, Wales and Scotland, and for postal customers lane too. The only person who seemed to be missing in Northern Ireland. was the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, who, I believe, in those distant days gone by, set this all going in the I think my noble friend Lord Borrie talked about first place. It is amazing who we have heard from: the the enthusiasm of the chief executive of Citizens noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, the noble Lord, Lord Advice for the new role, and I reflected on the comments Whitty, the noble Lord, Lord Borrie and too many of the chief executive of Consumer Focus, who said: others. I shall try hard to answer some of the questions, “Consumer Focus has achieved big wins for consumers in just but I hope that noble Lords will understand that, two years—including a £70 million energy bill refund and cash ISA reforms saving over £15 million a year. We’ve delivered our given that it is six minutes to 10, I will try not to keep biggest results in the last few months but the biggest challenges you here past 11 o’clock. Settle on down then. for consumers are ahead, with major reforms to the energy, post Consumer Focus has been placed in Schedule 1 and financial services markets … What matters now, is that the because the Government believe that its functions will transfer happens in a way that works in consumers’ interests. The expertise and knowledge that has enabled us to fight for consumers be better carried out by transferring them to the must not be lost. Changes must not be at the expense of the citizens’ advice service, which includes Citizens Advice public’s rights and needs—which organisations like Consumer and Citizens Advice Scotland. There will therefore be Focus were created to protect”. no need to retain Consumer Focus. The National That is an important and interesting comment. Consumer Council, in its original incarnation, has a There has not been much reference to the role of proud record. Over three decades, it established a fine trading standards. The response states: reputation for representing the interests of consumers “Trading Standards is at the centre of the Government’s through careful research, robust policy development proposed new regime. Local challenges to fair trading will continue and by using its influence with policy-makers. I, of to be handled at local authority level, but national and regional course, declare an interest as a former chairman of 1389 Public Bodies Bill [HL][11 JANUARY 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 1390 the National Consumer Council from 1990 to 1996. need protection no less now than in the past. Increasingly Prejudiced though I may be, I say that it was certainly sophisticated products and services need an increasingly right for its time. clued-up consumer to take maximum advantage and The previous Government merged the National avoid coming a cropper in the marketplace. We need Consumer Council with Energywatch and Postwatch; to deliver assistance and advice to individual consumers and the new National Consumer Council, which took at the point of need at a local level. At a national level, the name of Consumer Focus, opened its doors for we need a body to continue with quality research business in October 2008. I recognise that barely two which is capable of taking on the big policy issues of years have passed, but over those past two years, the day and fighting for the consumer interest with Consumer Focus has eagerly grasped its new range of businesses, regulators and Government. powers and responsibilities on behalf of consumers. The noble Baroness, Lady Deech, says that things I pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, who have never been worse. Maybe she is the consumer on chaired Consumer Focus with flair and commitment the Clapham omnibus and not one of us who have from the very start until stepping down rather loudly been involved deeply in our parts of the consumer and cross only in November last year. world and do not like to see any of the bits we were I will try to answer some questions as I go, which involved with go. Maybe her voice is the one we should may distort the speech a bit, but will give some answers. be listening to now. The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, asked whether abolition Citizens Advice is widely recognised and trusted by of Consumer Focus means that the Government are the public. It has a distinct advantage which we should giving up on consumers. Not at all. The Government seek to turn to our advantage. It has local representation, will continue to provide funding for these objectives, through the citizens advice bureaux, in communities which we regard as highly important, and we see throughout the country. It offers a presence on the Citizens Advice as the most effective conduit to deliver high street so that people can call in to get advice and the desired outcomes. information. It can cater for those who need personal What about vulnerable consumers? Consumer Focus contact; people who are not necessarily comfortable and its predecessors have played a very important role with a telephone or online service. It can assist vulnerable in this area. Citizens Advice also has substantial experience consumers face-to-face, identify problems and help of addressing the needs of vulnerable people across a with solutions. Citizens Advice has an excellent track wide range of subject areas and we are confident that record of advocacy on behalf of consumers at a it will be able to deliver the outcomes with no loss in national and local level. We therefore intend to direct quality. While Consumer Focus currently assists around almost all central government resources for non-financial 7,000 customers directly, Citizens Advice is advising consumer education, information, policy and advice and supporting millions of individuals. Citizens Advice to Citizens Advice. also has well developed policy and research functions as will be known to some noble Lords. 10 pm The noble Baroness, Lady Deech, asked whether The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, asked about the Government need to look at the whole landscape accountability. The Government fund Citizens Advice. of consumer protection right across the economy and What can and will be delivered for consumers can be make it more effective for consumers. I agree. The discussed in the context of the funding agreements. Government’s proposal is further to improve consumer The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, asked again about protection and advocacy in general and we believe funding concerns. Funding will follow functions. Where that the shift of Consumer Focus’s role to Citizens sectors are transferred, the funding will follow. It may Advice will deliver those services and protections closer be possible to make savings, but the individual sectoral to the citizen via the network of citizens advice bureaux, consumer bodies would be required to show greater making it even more relevant and effective than it efficiency in any case. currently is. The noble Lord, Lord Borrie, asked about giving The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, asked whether vulnerable statutory powers to a charity. We are considering the consumers will be those who lose out most. The range of powers and functions to be transferred, and Government propose to transfer Consumer Focus’s views will be invited in our public consultation in the statutory powers with regard to vulnerable consumers spring. to Citizens Advice. Discussions about how we can Questions were raised about the capacity of Citizens achieve this appropriately are still going on with Citizens Advice and Citizens Advice Scotland, which are charities, Advice and internally within BIS. to take on these functions currently carried out by My right honourable friend the Secretary of State Consumer Focus. I am glad to report that Citizens for Business, Innovation and Skills announced on Advice and Citizens Advice Scotland are enthusiastic 14 October last year that the Government would consult about these proposals. Work is under way to establish early this year on proposals to rationalise the functions what needs to be done to ensure that Citizens Advice of consumer protection bodies, eliminate confusion can take on this important enhanced role. Citizens and duplication, strengthen local delivery and provide Advice may well want to draw on the expert staff currently a stronger role for front-line consumer services. This is in Consumer Focus, and we will consider carefully the what we hope will be achieved. need to transfer powers and functions. We are taking the next, great, positive step forward The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, asked about in consumer advocacy, building on the strengths, the powers for Citizens Advice. We are looking to transfer expertise and the bold initiatives that have gone before powers and duties from Consumer Focus to Citizens and of which we have heard so much tonight. Consumers Advice and Citizens Advice Scotland. This is under 1391 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 1392

[BARONESS WILCOX] will allow me to reflect on what I have heard tonight discussion. It will be open to Citizens Advice services and will allow me to write answers, in particular to the to seek to import the expertise as necessary. The noble noble Lord, Lord Young, on anything that I have Baroness also asked about the capacity of Citizens missed in the summing up. I hope that the noble Advice. Citizens Advice and Citizens Advice Scotland Baroness will feel able to withdraw her amendment. understand that these changes will require expansion and change if they are to deliver these responsibilities. Lord Greaves: My Lords, the Minister waxed lyrical This will require the transfer of some staff and funding. and fluently about a vision in which services were How many and how much will become clearer once concentrated on what she called the “high street”, the consultation is completed and further discussions directly providing services of advice and everything are held with Citizens Advice, Citizens Advice Scotland else for consumers. The question that comes to mind and other stakeholders. The noble Baroness also is: have the Government got any plans of what they asked about devolution. We are discussing this with will do if, as a result of local government cuts in the the devolved Administrations now. funding of citizens advice bureaux locally, there is not The noble Baroness, Lady Deech, asked for more a comprehensive service on the high streets of this individual consumer voices. We agree. The direct country? If there are big gaps and towns where citizens connection of citizens advice bureaux to Citizens Advice advice bureaux disappear from the high streets, is it makes it a good home for the functions of Consumer the intention of the Government to provide extra Focus and other consumer bodies. The noble Lord, funding directly to keep those services going? The Lord Whitty, said that there was no clarity on what vision that she put forward depends on a comprehensive would be done to consumer bodies. The Government network of Citizens Advice in every town in the country. are consulting early this year, and that is what the consultation is all about. When we consult early this Baroness Wilcox: My Lords, late though the hour year on the proposals, we hope to offer options for is, that is a very good question. The consultation that consideration, including the options of bringing together we will have will take on board everything that has a range of consumer bodies within Citizens Advice, been raised tonight and is raised by people taking part based on a number of expert panels supported by in the consultation. Obviously, if we intend doing executive staff. I cannot pre-empt the consultation or something as changing as this, everything will be the Government’s decision, but noble Lords will wish considered. It would be foolish indeed if we just allowed to be aware that we are looking at this in a positive and everything to close. We must remember that Citizens constructive way. The key objective is to provide a Advice back at base is where so much of the work will better service for consumers. We can do this by bringing be done. People will be able to contact Citizens Advice together the policy and research expertise in Consumer online, but I agree that the high street is where Citizens Focus, especially in the energy and postal services Advice have majored and I am sure that we will do all sectors, with the longstanding success of Citizens Advice we can to make sure that that visible presence does not and its bureaux in helping consumers at the sharp get reduced. end on the high street as well as on their online and It is perhaps worth saying that the consultation will telephone advice lines. happen in the spring, which of course is within the next few weeks. We propose to make any changes in The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, said that the Bill the consumer landscape by April 2013, so we have does not provide for rationalisation of the consumer plenty of time to get this right and to see exactly what bodies. The Bill does provide for abolition of bodies to is happening out there and what we are creating. modify and transfer functions enabling rationalisation to take place. We cannot connect the consumer policy Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town: My Lords, I and research functions with the real-time concerns thank the speakers who have been impressive, if not and problems of citizens in their communities. We can overwhelming, for me today. They include a former and should make that connection now. director-general of OFT,three—including the intervention I am grateful for the expert views of noble Lords —former chairs of the NCC and a former Minister in who have spoken in this debate. I was even grateful to this area. It shows the degree of concern about how the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, who offered me a third consumers within civil society can have their voices way, and I shall reflect upon what he said when the heard in decision-making, whether that be in the public Government consult on their proposals for the next sector through industry, by regulators or by elsewhere. step forward for consumer advocacy early this year. It seems to me that this is a key area. We will take full account of the points made by noble The original purpose of the Government was to Lords during the passage of this Bill. My honourable reduce the number and cost of quangos—hence its friend Edward Davey, the Minister for Employer Relations, so-called review. We hear that the consultation will be Consumer and Postal Affairs, who is well known to early this year or in springtime. It is at least something the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, with whom he has that that review has taken place. The House of Commons battled over these last months for Consumer Focus, is Public Administration Select Committee in its report following these proceedings with great interest in order thought that the review to date was poorly managed. I that views expressed in your Lordships’ House can fear that even the Minister’s answers have substantiated inform debate when this Bill moves to another place. that. I am delighted to hear her say that the Government I hope that all noble Lords who supported the will look at, are looking at and are giving consideration. amendment, particularly the noble Baroness, Lady That is great. It is just rather sad that that has happened Hayter, in whose name this amendment is, and the after the decision and after this Bill is before us rather noble Lord, Lord Whitty, who has put his name to it, than before. 1393 Public Bodies Bill [HL][11 JANUARY 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 1394

There was precious little consultation with Scotland “Rationalise, yes; abolish, no”. He said he did not and none with Wales, none with the wider consumer think that the Bill would achieve the aims of better movement or representatives of users or clients, or consumer protection and certainly is not going to save indeed anyone else. As my noble friend Lord Whitty public money. The noble Lord fears that this marriage said, the Bill does not provide for a transfer of will not work. I think he may be right and that it may functions—it is an abolition. My noble friend Lord be a marriage made in hell. He also asked whether Borrie did not ask who is going to provide help on the Citizens Advice could undertake the probing, analytical high street, important though that is, but put the vital work that has been done. Citizens Advice is about question of who will do the high-quality research, solving individual problems, but we need a consumer investigatory and advocacy work across the whole voice that goes to Government, to industry and to economy that is being done by Consumer Focus and services. the NCC before that. I do not think the Minister has I am delighted that the Minister said that discussions answered that question. and talks are now taking place. They may be late, but The proposal, according to my noble friend Lord better late than never. I will also be delighted if Scotland Liddle, is anti-big society, and I think that is right and Wales have time to consider whether there is an because the big society should be about having the alternative model that suits the devolved areas better. consumer voice at the heart of every decision that The Select Committee also said that the Government takes place. The reasons given for other bodies in the face the much larger challenge of successfully Bill is that they are old, a bit cranky and in need of an implementing these reforms. That is right because MOT, or even removal. That is not the case with there are still questions about funding. I was sorry to Consumer Focus because it is two years old. Nevertheless, hear the Minister use words like “efficiency” and I agree very strongly with what the noble Baroness, “savings” in her discussion on funding when I had Lady Deech, said. If this Bill had led to rationalisation rather hoped to hear about a promise and, “Yes, that is and to better protection and advice, she would be with fine”. I would have liked that better. There are still it. At the time when I was still with the NCC and we questions of accountability and about whether Citizens were discussing the mergers, we would have loved to Advice is the right organisation to do this job. There is have the water watchdog, Passenger Focus and others also the question of what happens if finally it says no. coming in so as to provide a really strong and dynamic I hope that the Government will continue in their voice for consumers. Had this led to such a rationalisation, thinking and do a proper consultation, even if it is I would not be here arguing against it—I would be being done a bit later than perhaps it could have been. cheering it on. We need consumers across all sectors to But in order to assist, them, of course I beg leave to have a stronger voice, so if the desire expressed by the withdraw the amendment. noble Baroness, Lady Deech, was to be met, I too would be with it. Amendment 43 withdrawn. As the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, said, it is not House resumed. a positive proposal for change; rather it is a winding-up process. I think he also agreed with the notion of House adjourned at 10.15 pm.

GC 115 Arrangement of Business[11 JANUARY 2011] Statement for Energy (EN-1) GC 116

Throughout the NPSs we have tried to improve the Grand Committee clarity and consistency and we have removed repetitive material from the technology-specific NPSs where it Tuesday, 11 January 2011. could be said once in the overarching NPS. We have made significant changes to the statement of need in the overarching NPS, EN-1. This now includes research Arrangement of Business that was not available for the first draft, including Announcement more detailed analysis of scenarios to achieve an 80 per cent reduction in carbon emissions by 2050. 3.30 pm However, the conclusions remain the same: we urgently need a new energy infrastructure. The Deputy Chairman of Committees (The Countess of Mar): My Lords, before the Minister moves that the In fact, the Pathways 2050 model shows that we first national policy statement be considered, could I might need at least twice the electricity-generation remind noble Lords that, in the case of each national capacity by comparison with today in order to meet policy statement, the Motion before the Committee our climate change targets because we will need to will be that the Committee do consider, rather than electrify large amounts of industry, heating and transport. approve, the draft national policy statement in question? Our modelling shows we need about 59 gigawatts of If there is a Division in the House, the Committee will new electricity capacity by 2025, of which more than adjourn for 10 minutes. half will come from renewables. We would like a significant proportion of the remaining non-renewable generation to be filled by either low-carbon technologies, Revised Draft Overarching National Policy such as nuclear or coal with CCS. New nuclear should Statement for Energy (EN-1) be free to contribute as much as possible to this. We Considered in Grand Committee also need gas generation as part of our transition to low-carbon. We have also included more detail in 3.31 pm EN-1 on what is required for an economic feasibility assessment to ensure that fossil fuel generation stations Moved By Lord Marland are carbon-capture ready. That the Grand Committee do report to the In this Committee last February, the noble Lord, House that it has considered the Revised Draft Lord Woolmer, suggested that the provisions in the Overarching National Policy Statement for Energy fossil fuel generation stations NPS—EN-2—which require (EN-1). applicants to demonstrate the economic feasibility of carbon-capture readiness, were such that developers The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, would have difficulty demonstrating economic feasibility. Department of Energy and Climate Change (Lord We have therefore added more detail in EN-2 on how Marland): I am very pleased to open this debate on the applicants might demonstrate that their proposals for revised draft energy national policy statements—the CCR would be economically feasible, including a model NPSs. The NPSs are a suite of documents that will for an economic assessment that takes into account comprise the decision-making framework for major the difficulties of calculating variable costs over a long energy infrastructure proposals. I will briefly explain period. The revised overarching and fossil fuel NPSs the changes that we have made to them since the first also note that operators of fossil fuel generating stations consultation in November 2009. will have to comply with an emissions performance First, I should explain briefly the role of Parliament standard. That may be introduced but it is not currently in ensuring that the revised documents are as robust as envisaged that it would be a development consent possible. This debate is part of the scrutiny process set condition. out in the Planning Act 2008. It is an opportunity to comment on the revised energy national policy statements, We have clarified that the renewables NPS—EN-3— apart from the nuclear one, which we will debate on does not cover alternative renewable energy technology, Thursday. The coalition Government believe that NPSs such as tidal and wave power or solar energy. We do should be subject to approval by Parliament so that not anticipate that most of these technologies will they have the strongest possible democratic legitimacy. become commercially viable above the Planning Act This House has an important role in scrutinising draft 2008 thresholds in the near future. However, applications NPSs, and this debate will help the Government prepare for consent for tidal range schemes may be submitted the final versions of NPSs. I hope your Lordships to the IPC or its successor in the next few years. We are agree that we have taken on board the very helpful therefore considering including tidal range schemes in comments by noble Lords in shaping these NPSs. We the NPSs, either through an amendment to this NPS intend to lay the final NPS for ratification in the or through a separate NPS at an appropriate stage. spring. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Young, for her The revised versions of the five non-nuclear NPSs suggestion in the previous debate that the renewables take into account the previous Grand Committee NPSs should set out specific directions to the IPC on debates and the recommendations from the Energy assessing the sustainability of biomass for generating and Climate Change Select Committee. Details of stations using it as fuel. We have considered this these are set out in the response to parliamentary carefully. However, we believe that sustainability of scrutiny. I have also placed a memorandum on the biomass is best addressed through the renewables changes to the NPSs in the Library. obligations. The revision of the renewables NPS explains GC 117 Statement for Energy (EN-1)[LORDS] Statement for Energy (EN-1) GC 118

[LORD MARLAND] 3.41 pm that, subject to the necessary changes being made to the RO, there is no need for the IPC to consider this Lord Giddens: My Lords, I see that the Government’s matter further. We have consulted on the necessary passion for reducing bureaucracy does not extend to changes in the Renewables Obligations Order 2011. bureaucratic language. The Revised Draft Overarching We are also consulting on further proposals in the National Policy Statement for Energy could have come EMR consultation that closes in March. from a satire by C Northcote Parkinson. I am pleased to hear that the Minister reduces this to “NPS” and We have also revised the text with regard to noise for “NPSs”. onshore wind farms. The ETSU-R-97 recommendations for noise limits for the operation of wind turbines have With regard to substance, as in previous debates, I been criticised as being outdated. We have therefore congratulate the Government and the Minister on the made it clear that applicants should take into account seriousness of intent with which they are approaching the latest industry good practice on assessing noise issues of energy and climate change. I am also encouraged from wind turbines, as well as existing guidance in by the constructive relationship that seems to exist ETSU-R-97. We are keen to ensure that planning between the Department of Energy and Climate Change authorities and developers have clarity about best and the climate change committee. It is good to see practice to provide greater certainty and consistency that carbon mitigation policies are being pursued in in the planning system. Therefore, we have also such close conjunction with energy security and a commissioned research to analyse consideration of proactive approach to adaptation. As one of those noise in development consents. This is due to be people who thinks that climate change is moving more completed in March and will inform the text in the quickly than mainstream opinion and is probably renewables NPS. already embedded in the world climatic system, I am pleased to see that adaptation plays a significant part We have clarified that the gas supply infrastructure in these documents. We may have to prepare in more and gas and oil pipelines NPS—EN-4—covers only radical ways than are suggested there, depending on oil and natural gas pipelines, and not CO2 pipelines. how we monitor the consequences of what is there in We will seek views on the development of the CO2 the system already. infrastructure and intend to include onshore CO2 pipelines in a suite of NPSs at a later date. The noble The documents are commendably ambitious, but I Lord, Lord Crickhowell, suggests that NPSs should wonder if there are some ways in which they are not address safety in LNG deliveries to terminals. The ambitious enough. I have four main points to put to Government agree, and the NPS has been amended to the Minister for his response. First, the Government include an explanation of the regulatory controls that want 30 per cent of the UK’s electricity to be generated apply to ensure safe shipping of liquefied natural gas. by renewables by 2030. It sounds as if they are aiming In the February debates the noble Lord, Lord Judd, high until one realises that in Spain 35 per cent of was concerned about the impact of overhead electricity demand was met by renewables—namely hydro, wind lines—I agree entirely with his concern, as a private and solar power—in 2010, the year just gone. Wind matter—in areas of outstanding natural beauty. We power alone met 16 per cent of demand. At its peak have tried to ensure that the government policy on on 9 December, wind generated 43 per cent of total undergrounding and the need to treat each application electricity demand. One of the key figures in Spain’s on a case-by-case basis is expressed more clearly in the energy industry, Javier Breva, was quoted in the Guardian electricity NPS, EN-5. We have also added a new as saying: section on bird strike in this NPS to reflect findings in “even five years ago no one would have believed these figures were the revised appraisal of sustainability. possible. No one expected renewables to grow so fast”. We have also substantially revised the appraisal of I would like the Minister’s response on what he makes sustainability for the non-nuclear NPSs. This will make of such comparative examples in relation to the proposals it easier for people to evaluate the likely environmental listed here. Incidentally, this example also shows, as I impacts of the revised draft national policy statement. have mentioned in previous debates, that there is a big We also set out strategic alternative approaches to the difference between the proportion of renewables in a NPS policies and explained why at this stage we do not system and the overall emission of CO2. Spain’s emissions think that they represent better ways of achieving our were growing quite radically until the recession in energy policy objectives through the planning system. 2008, so having a high proportion of renewables does not guarantee a declining curve in emissions because it The Localism Bill, which had its First Reading in depends on what happens in the rest of the economy. the other place on 13 December, sets out our proposals to abolish the Infrastructure Planning Commission Secondly, because the Government believe that and replace it with a major infrastructure planning dependence on coal will last for quite a while to help unit as part of the Planning Inspectorate. Under the act as an anchor for energy security, they place a reform regime, major infrastructure projects will be strong emphasis on CCS, which is discussed extensively decided by Ministers in accordance with the policy in the documents. What is the Government’s fallback framework, not by a quango, so there is an urgent position if CCS does not work or encounters major need for the new major energy infrastructure. The problems which limit its application? Everyone who energy national policy statements in place will provide has followed the debate on CCS will know that it is a clear framework against which planning applications surrounded by issues and problems. It is not a technology for this infrastructure will be assessed. I commend which one can immediately say will be capable of these national policy statements to the Committee. achieving the large-scale generalisation presaged in GC 119 Statement for Energy (EN-1)[11 JANUARY 2011] Statement for Energy (EN-1) GC 120 this document. Therefore, what is the Government’s and a continent, we are in big trouble if we do not do fallback position if the role of CCS is limited, which I something very quickly and decisively. We currently believe could happen? have 85 gigawatts of electricity capacity available to Thirdly, it is stated in the documents that the, us, but 59 new gigawatts will be required by 2025, “ETS is the single most important policy to reduce UK emissions”. which is not that far away in terms of industrial investment cycles. That is a huge challenge, as Is it right for the Government to put so much faith in £250 billion—a quarter of a trillion pounds—in the ETS? The initial phase of the ETS has basically investment is needed. Hence this project is urgent. We been a failure in limiting carbon emissions. It has need to give investment certainty to large organisations generated markets and it has generated a lot of money, and to smaller organisations in terms of the renewables but the studies we have on its impact in European that will make that possible. countries in reducing carbon emissions show that the proportion of reduction seems to be about 5 per cent. The other thing that really stood out to me—I must However, it is also likely that some countries exaggerated have read this before but I did not really realise it—is their carbon emissions in order to show themselves in that, on average, only half of that 85 gigawatts is used. a better light, and so it may be that the true impact of It is a degree of peaking, which we are aware of, but, in the ETS was close to zero. We have gone through two terms of capacity, we already have to add on 100 per revisions since then, but it does not seem right to say cent to what we normally need. One of the things that that the ETS will guarantee a positive outcome for the that says to me as a past corporate economist, and as UK economy in these terms. The new system which an economist more generally, is that there is a major has been introduced may be more effective but it is as market failure here. Clearly you cannot take peaking yet unproven. I would welcome the Minister’s comments completely out of energy markets—that would be on that. impossible—but it is staggering that it is at that level. Fourthly and finally, I have a point which echoes In conjunction with Ofgem, DECC is looking at market the one I made in our previous energy debate, on the structures. This huge market failure also should be final day before the recess. No systematic attention looked at. In consumer terms, off-peak electricity is seems to be given in these documents or elsewhere to clearly too expensive. I have a background in industry. the wider economic implications of transformations If I saw most of my assets doing nothing for half the in the energy system. It seems incoherent to accept the time, I would say that it is a very ineffective way to run need for comprehensive planning for the energy system the infrastructure of a business, let alone of a country. while supposing that all the rest can seemingly be left That is one of the major messages that comes out to to the hazards of the markets. In other words, as I me. I hope the Minister will take that thought forward argued previously, some form of targeted regional very strongly in terms of market-mechanism reviews. planning is surely needed. I will concentrate mainly on the overarching statement. There are many suggestions in the documents and In paragraph 2.2.14 the Government express a strong in the responses to them. I ask for the Minister’s view preference and commitment to reach a 30 per cent on one suggestion which I read in some detail—the reduction in emissions at European level by 2020, proposal from the Royal Town Planning Institute for a rather than the current 20 per cent. I know that that is national spatial planning framework. I cannot see why very much one of the Secretary of State’s aims and the Government should accept the need for systematic targets and I hope that he has success in that very long-term planning for energy—which of course is important area. necessary—but imply that it stops there. All the economic Perhaps I may go through some of the areas that implications are very considerable. Youhave to balance bring up more questions than answers. One of them, them out in a planning framework with the consequences as the noble Lord, Lord Giddens, said, is carbon for the rest of the economy and the wider society. capture and storage. Although carbon capture and I should welcome the Minister’s response to my queries. storage is an important strategy and a great technology in that, in many ways, it sweeps the pollutants under the carpet—or under the North Sea, or underground, 3.48 pm or wherever you want to put them—the statement in Lord Teverson: My Lords, perhaps I may start by fact says that there is uncertainty about that technology. giving a personal opinion. When we previously considered The report actually states that, which I think is very these draft policy statements it was done in a Grand honest, and it is a good thing that it does so. However, Committee-style rather than a Second Reading-style there are all sorts of areas around CCS that we need to debate. I think that that probably works better for make sure we do not completely sell our soul on. We draft statements, although we now have only one more need to make sure that it is going to work economically to consider. As the Minister said, a large number of and, necessarily, technically. It can probably work intelligent and profound points came out of that process. technically, but will it work at a cost in terms of That was partly because the session was less formal investment that power organisations will be able to than today’s session will be—although I am sure that absorb? we will be equally productive. I have been a Member of this House for four and a One of the things that are always useful about this half years now and for most of that time we have been type of statement is that it goes through the bare facts talking about demonstration projects, contracts, of the background of the situation. Immediately when competitions, getting these things on board, Britain you read the first sections of the overarching statement being ahead, and regarding this as not exactly a silver you realise that, as an economy, a climate, a nation bullet but as an important part of solving the whole GC 121 Statement for Energy (EN-1)[LORDS] Statement for Energy (EN-1) GC 122

[LORD TEVERSON] To come back to EN-3, as an individual document problem of energy capacity. Yet, I am very concerned on renewable energy, I welcome the statement that the that we never really seem to have a lot of hard evidence Government intend to have a test of sustainability on where those competitions have got to, when they against biomass. I am a great supporter of biomass for are going to happen, and when implementation can energy generation, but sustainable credentials of that take place. I know that all that is happening but it biomass in order to benefit from renewable obligations would be very useful for the Minister to clarify it. or other incentives are very important. I congratulate Another small thing on CCS: it seems to me that if the Minister on including that, but I would be interested CCS is going to require anything, it will be pipelines to to understand the timescales involved. disperse the carbon dioxide that we take out of energy production. However, the pipeline part of the energy 3.59 pm draft statement relates only to oil and gas pipelines. The Lord Bishop of Liverpool: My Lords, I, too, am I assume that there will be quite a few carbon dioxide pleased to contribute to this debate on the revised ones in future as well. statements. I recognise how much the Minister has I return to one of the broader issues, which is air taken on board points from the previous debates. quality. I shall quote from paragraph 5.5.2. I largely I also recognise the huge importance of ensuring a welcome these statements, but this is an area—I am continued sufficient and secure power supply to UK not sure that I have got the reference right; I apologise. homes and businesses over the coming decades. I am The Government specifically exclude carbon dioxide concerned that the national policy statements, although as one of the pollutants in the atmosphere. The NPS revised from the previous Government’s, still do not goes through the sulphur and nitrous oxides and so go far enough to ensure that we develop green and on, but it says that carbon dioxide is dealt with through sustainable low-carbon power generation for the future. other regulations in other ways. If we look at the If the UK is to achieve its 2015 carbon targets, we American experience with its Environmental Protection need to make the right decisions now about low-carbon Agency, which finally agreed a couple of years ago power generation. My concern is that, notwithstanding that CO2 was a pollutant, we can see that the Government the Minister’s reassurances, these NPSs tie us into should not be afraid of CO2 being classified as such, familiar carbon-emitting power generation and do not and it should be taken into consideration with regard do enough to ensure investment in renewables and the to these draft statements. There are other mechanisms opportunity to become a world leader in renewable by which CO2 is dealt with, but we should accept that technologies. it is an atmospheric pollutant and deal with it on that While in opposition, both the Conservatives and basis. We should not avoid that issue. the Liberal Democrats were vocal in their concerns There is a small chapter on socioeconomic issues. about the Infrastructure Planning Commission. I was I come from the south-west, and I know that in terms encouraged to hear the coalition Government announce of new nuclear—I will not expand on this too much in the first weeks of their tenure their intention to because this subject will come back in a future nuclear abolish the IPC. However, the timing of the NPSs and debate—there are potentially huge disruptions for local the Localism Bill, under which the IPC will, I hope, be communities when construction takes place. To have a abolished, means that during the next 12 months the power station you have to have a construction process IPC will make decisions about infrastructure planning and inevitably you bring in a large number of contractors on the strengths of these NPSs. It is therefore possible and workers, but there is certainly a great fear—for for the IPC in the coming 12 months to grant permission example, around Hinkley Point—that all the holiday to build a significant number of coal and gas-fired home accommodation will disappear for three years power stations. I would be interested in the Minister’s and kill the holiday industry in the longer term, and comments on this supposition. That permission is that social housing will be filled or the private sector possible within the framework offered by these revised part of social housing will disappear, putting all sorts NPSs. I understand that several applications are already of pressures on local authorities. Perhaps I could being considered, which, if granted, could lock the come back to that when we debate the nuclear areas. UK into another generation of carbon-emitting energy On consultation, I do not pretend that I have read supply. I would like to be corrected and proved wrong; every word of these documents but I have read pretty perhaps the Minister will do so shortly. I cannot well most of them. There does not seem, and I do not believe that this is the Government’s intention, bearing understand this, to be any requirement to consult in mind their commitment to being the greenest anyone specifically as part of the planning process. Government ever. However, this may be an unintended Maybe I misunderstand these documents and that is consequence of these statements. not supposed to be part of this process, but there is no It is also possible that this year the IPC will grant requirement that the planning authority and the Minister planning permission to several nuclear power stations. take evidence from local authorities or, for instance, Again, I would like to be corrected but I understand from the devolved Assembly in Wales. I do not understand that this is a possibility. I know that this will be from these documents who has to be consulted. Surely debated on Thursday. I hope your Lordships will give we have to ensure that someone definitely is consulted; me permission to make just one point about this now everyone will be aware that a nuclear power station or because, unfortunately, I cannot be in the House on an offshore wind complex is being built. There perhaps Thursday. The Government have a responsibility to needs to be more rigour in that area, but maybe I respond seriously to concerns raised in the debates on misunderstand what these documents are supposed the previous NPSs which have not been adequately to do. addressed by the revised nuclear NPS. The Minister GC 123 Statement for Energy (EN-1)[11 JANUARY 2011] Statement for Energy (EN-1) GC 124 may remember that I raised concerns about the impact and the honorary president of the Energy Industries of expected rising sea levels, as a result of climate Council. Like the right reverend Prelate, I thank the change, on the security of nuclear power stations and Minister and the Government for the extent to which the long-term safe storage of nuclear waste. Although they have taken on board the discussions that we had there is reference to sea level rise and flooding in these at the earlier stage. The revisions make considerable papers, I encourage the Minister to look again at the improvements to the national policy statements. I single risk assessment on these projects, especially in respect out in particular national need. Originally it was referred of four of the eight sites—Bradwell, Oldbury, Sellafield to as being merely “significant”. As my noble friend and Sizewell—which in my opinion lack sufficient will perhaps realise, I tabled an amendment to say that reassurance for local communities. it should be “of critical importance”. The statement The Minister will be aware that during consideration has not gone quite as far as that, but the fact that the of the Planning Bill and in the NPS debates under the need is now referred to as being “urgent” makes the previous Government, I raised concerns about counting point perhaps more simply and is a considerable the carbon. I am disappointed to see that the revised improvement. NPSs still do not include this specific requirement. I also applaud the acknowledgement in the statements The Committee on Climate Change recommended that we need to look beyond 2025. We have all recognised that applicants conduct, the importance of the Pathways 2050 paper which the “a full life-cycle carbon assessment”, department produced last year. A number of points in of their proposal, to be considered by the IPC. However, these documents reflect that work and I shall return to even with this recommendation, the Government do them in a moment. not seem to accept the importance of counting the I also welcome the proposal to extend CCS beyond carbon. From what the Minister has just said, I accept just coal. I recognise that CCS for coal is the most that the environmental impact assessment directive important because coal is the greatest pollutant, but goes some way to addressing this, as does the Climate the policy statements now recognise that any generating Change Act. However, I fail to be convinced that this capacity over 300 megawatts should include gas as is enough. I urge the Minister to reconsider the inclusion well as coal. Given that the market in gas is huge, such of a requirement in the NPS for full carbon counting. a move is very valuable. I also welcome the details that If this is not done, we could find ourselves building have been given in response to both Houses of Parliament stations that pull the rug from beneath the Government’s on the technical and economic feasibility both of explicit targets on reducing carbon emissions. carbon capture and storage and carbon-capture readiness. By the time the responsibility for decisions about I shall return to that later, because it raises a few major infrastructure moves to the Secretary of State, a questions. number of infrastructure applications may well have It is right to mention one or two points which were been granted. My concern is not simply that we will raised during the consultation with interested organisations find ourselves locked into carbon-emitting energy but which, so far as I can see, are not reflected in the generation for decades but also that we will have revised drafts. I am an officer of the All-Party Oil and missed the opportunity to participate in the growing Gas Group and I have had my attention drawn by Oil global green economy. As I am sure the Minister will & Gas UK to a couple of points. It had argued that be aware, according to research done by the Pew there should be an explicit obligation on the IPC or its Center, China is emerging as the world’s cleanest energy successor to consider prior established rights for, for powerhouse. It has already become the world’s leading example, offshore applications when they have to investor in renewables, aiming for 15 per cent of its determine applications under the policy statements. It energy to be generated through renewables by 2020. It was disappointed that there was no statement to that has already designated five provinces and eight cities effect in the key principles which are in paragraph 4.1.3. as low-carbon pilots, representing some 350 million Perhaps the Minister could comment on that. people—27 per cent of the population—and a third of its economy. The centre of gravity is shifting from west Then, there is a related concern that if there is a to east not just for the world’s economy but for its conflict between, for instance, offshore oil and gas and green economy. We have in these blue folders before us the requirements of offshore wind power, the national a global economic opportunity. I wonder—the Minister policy statements do not really represent the scale and may like to address this point—whether this was on complexity and safety requirements of offshore oil the agenda of the Prime Minister’s meeting with the and gas activities in the UK’s continental shelf. Too Deputy Prime Minister of China yesterday. many of the provisions, it will argue, are somewhat woolly and imprecise and leave the resolution of difficulties We must look in these revised NPSs for a sound between offshore wind power and oil and gas simply road map towards creating a secure energy supply that to be settled by the commercial companies involved. is green and sustainable, one which enables the Given the role of DECC in both these matters it Government to live up to their claim to be the greenest would seem to me that there is a case for arguing that Government ever and enables the UK to be a global there needs to be rather more guidance on this from market leader in green energy generation. the department. These are just a couple of points where there is a little disappointment. 4.06 pm I think that we should look at the context—indeed, Lord Jenkin of Roding: My Lords, I must begin by all the previous speakers have done this—in which we declaring a couple of interests. I am the honorary are considering these revised national policy statements. president of the National Skills Academy for Nuclear My noble friend mentioned the planning reforms. GC 125 Statement for Energy (EN-1)[LORDS] Statement for Energy (EN-1) GC 126

[LORD JENKIN OF RODING] to this again on Thursday, because it is particularly Like others, I applaud the decision to transfer decision- important in the consideration of nuclear investment making from the IPC to Ministers. I would like to say and the need for nuclear sites. I will not dwell on that that it would be right to applaud the decision of today, and I hope that the right reverend Prelate will Sir Michael Pitt, the chairman of the IPC, and of all forgive me for that. the members of the commission to agree to work I return to the policy statements we are considering within the new system when the IPC’s functions will today. There are a great many issues to which I am be dealt with by the major infrastructure planning sure noble Lords in all parts of the Grand Committee unit within the Planning Inspectorate. I have to say will wish to refer. I should like to pick out the question that before the election I attached enormous importance of gas infrastructure. I refer to the figures that have in my discussions with my colleagues on that, and it been quoted at paragraph 3.8.4 and are the subject of has been achieved. I think that that is wholly admirable. figure 3.1, which makes it clear that there will have to However, there are certain other planning developments be considerable use of gas over the foreseeable future still to come. We are told that there is to be a national if we are going to have intermittent renewable energy planning policy framework and some rationalisation and sufficient overall energy to keep the lights on. All I of the planning policy statements—both of which are can say is that that is a welcome realism. It has not no doubt very desirable—and everybody agrees that it always been apparent in some of the public statements is vital to build the confidence of investors, particularly that have been made, but it is only realistic. There are for the major energy investments, if these things are to ample supplies of gas. It is much more easily adjustable happen. To do that one needs to reduce uncertainty to the changing patterns of demand and we are inevitably and achieve policy stability. Therefore I ask two things going to use it. Gas will remain a significant source. of my noble friend. First, what undertaking can he However, it is also made clear in the paragraphs give to designate these new revised national policy that there are uncertainties. In particular the document statements as soon as possible after the consultations mentions energy prices. In this context, I was mildly have been completed? Secondly, given that there are surprised that there is no reference to the comparatively going to be these further developments coming along recent advent, especially in the United States, of shale later, could he ensure that the national policy statements gas. This was mentioned in a briefing sent to a number should stand as clear guidance and should slot unscathed of us last November by the department. It stated: into the revised suite of policies and the guidance as they are developed? That is a point that has been put “Additional supplies in the US may now have a limited impact on international gas markets (since it is now largely self-sufficient), to me and I entirely support it. As has been said, there unless the US were able to export some of this gas”. is to be huge energy investment over the next 10 to 15 years and anything that can achieve certainty on I read an article the other day which indicated that this is to be welcomed. although it is true that current plans to convert some of the LNG terminals in the United States to export Can my noble friend tell me something about the terminals have for the time being been set aside, the future timetable on this? I have been assured by the fact of the matter is that the US is now producing usual channels that we could, if we wished, repeat last shale gas at considerably below the world market gas year’s processes and table resolutions that could be price. There must therefore come a point when there debated on the Floor of the House, and that would, in will be an undoubted incentive to try to use some of theory, be divisible. I am not sure whether that will be that on the world markets and therefore to have an necessary on this occasion as most of these national impact on prices. That is likely to have an impact on policy statements will attract wide agreement. I have the balance of gas on our markets here and might at been told that this will happen in the other place and some stage require a revision of the figures to which I that there will be a vote on a Motion from the Government referred a few moments ago. to approve the national policy statements. Can my noble friend say whether anything like that is likely to As the right reverend Prelate and others have said, happen in this House? gas is of course a fossil fuel and therefore emits greenhouse gases. If it is going to be a larger part of A few moments ago I referred to the 2025 span for our energy scene, and if that is undesirable, that implies the national policy statements and the 2050 figure in that other sources will have to be expanded to stop the pathways paper. Perhaps I may draw attention to that happening. One sees that the obvious answer, as a what was said about that in paragraph 3.3.16 of the very low-carbon source, is more nuclear. That is another overarching statement, which states: point that my noble friend might like to mention. “The Government has therefore considered a planning horizon Other speakers have referred to CCS and carbon- of 2025 for the energy NPSs in general and for EN-6 in particular, capture readiness. I shall refer to two issues related to as an interim milestone”. that. One is the whole question of carbon dioxide It is important to notice that phrase. The following transport and storage, and the other is the process by paragraph states: which the IPC or its successor is to decide on approval, “The Government will keep the relevance of this interim or not, of a CCR plant. milestone of 2025 for the energy NPSs under review”. On the question of pipelines and storage, there is a The question that I should like to put to my noble requirement on the IPC under paragraph 3.6.5 to take friend is: how will that be done; and when does he account of further developments of CCS that will anticipate that it will be appropriate to extend the require further carbon transport and storage. This review either in new national policy statements, as he seems to be really quite difficult. The industry itself, in suggested, or in some form of amendment? I will refer paragraph 4.7.7, is asked when planning its investment GC 127 Statement for Energy (EN-1)[11 JANUARY 2011] Statement for Energy (EN-1) GC 128 to bear in mind further developments. I have always There are those aesthetic considerations but there felt that eventually there will have to be a CO2 grid, or are also social challenges. How do we avoid a situation perhaps a series of regional grids, in the country so in which the weight of what is being done falls on that one does not have a mass of single pipelines those who are already relatively socially disadvantaged leading to underground storage offshore. Achieving or less articulate? How do we avoid the “not in my that objective, though, will be very difficult to deliver backyard” syndrome, where those who do not have the in practice. How is the IPC expected to take account same influence end up with a disproportionate amount of future demand? The four demonstration projects, of what has to be done on their doorstep? all of which will be CCS, are intended to establish the viability of CCS as an economic and technical possibility. All this has to be put together, which is why a By definition, no one knows what the future investment national statement has the potential to be so important. is going to be, so I find this a difficult concept. I hope I must confess to some disappointment about the that my noble friend might be able to explain. I realise draft that is before us. In what I have just talked about, that a lot of this is spelt out in the revisions to EN-1, the guidance on spatial issues is inadequate. There is but I have not been entirely clear about how they are room for much more detailed spelling out of criteria. going to work out. Quite apart from the considerations that I have just mentioned, without more detailed criteria we are creating I come to the more difficult, and more problematical, greater uncertainty for planners and public alike. question of CCR, where a plant can be produced but Potentially, all parts of the countryside are up for it has to be established that it is carbon-capture ready, grabs as the policy goes forward. This will lead to and how the IPC is to handle those applications. This great public anxiety and pressure that, however much will be a very difficult problem. One has to remember the Government want to speed up the process, will in that this all came via the European Union. the end find ways of delaying it. If there were more information available and more specificity on these Lord Shutt of Greetland: My Lords, even in the issues, it would speed up the process in the way that benign atmosphere of the Grand Committee, the noble the Government would like. Lord has had 17 minutes and I am afraid that 15 minutes is the recommended time. I do hope that he will be All this is brought out rather well by CPRE. It gives able to conclude his remarks. a specific example in an interesting brief that has been prepared. Underlining that it is not a theoretical concern, Lord Jenkin of Roding: I can conclude my remarks CPRE spells out that, extremely briefly by saying that I hope that my noble “experience of pre-application consultation for the substation friend will give us some explanation of how the new required to connect the Triton Knoll offshore wind farm to the guidance on CCR is intended to work, and what the national grid highlights the risk of the current approach. The remaining role of the IPC will be in that. I am sorry if location of the substation is subject to consultation, but the fact I have tested the patience of noble Lords on this, but I that all proposed sites for the substation are approximately 40km think that these are relevant points. from the nearest suitable 400kV overhead lines is not considered. Indeed, the required overhead lines to connect the substation are entirely outside of the consultation, and risk not being considered 4.25 pm at all by the Infrastructure Planning Commission or a future Lord Judd: My Lords, I declare an interest as an Major Infrastructure Unit of the Planning Inspectorate”. honorary officer of both the Friends of the Lake There is an apparent underlying assumption that District, which represents CPRE in Cumbria, and the there is an almost unlimited need for new energy Campaign for National Parks. I was struck by what infrastructure, but how much examination has there my noble friend Lord Giddens said about the urgency been of what has already been consented to? What are of climate change. I find myself completely in harmony the implications for need and what we may have to do with him, although there have been moments in Cumbria in the future of what has already been consented to? in the past few weeks when I have had to hang on to that conviction. However, it remains absolutely firm. This is a missed opportunity to provide for effective It seems that this statement again brings home to us integration of different planning needs, to examine the question of what we are trying to achieve. There is reasonable alternatives or to complete a convincing a danger that our preoccupations with energy and appraisal of sustainability. I referred earlier to what energy policy become an end in themselves, which my noble friend Lord Giddens said about the urgency they are not. They are about how we get a society of climate change. I endorsed that view and said that worth having. If we are to take that seriously, it is not we faced a challenge. The challenge is probably of an appendix to our considerations; it is central to our greater significance in some ways for the history of the considerations that we take responsibility for stewardship species than the Second World War. What strikes me of our aesthetic, environmental and landscape inheritance, in any reading of the history of the Second World which is envied by the world. It would be easy, under War, when we faced that huge challenge in which we the pressures that exist, to repeat the mistakes of the had to succeed, is how much work was going on at first Industrial Revolution. With hindsight we can see that very time into the quality of society that we that they were mistakes, but surely we have a capacity wanted when the war was won and what was necessary to learn as a society from the faults of our predecessors. to ensure it. Are we in danger now, in our very It was not necessary to do all that was done in the way materialist age, of getting so preoccupied with the that it was done, raping some of the richest, most means that we are not facing up to the challenges that important inheritance in our countryside and landscape were faced up to by that great Government from 1940 across the nation. to 1945? GC 129 Statement for Energy (EN-1)[LORDS] Statement for Energy (EN-1) GC 130

[LORD JUDD] there is always the question, which, of course, I would The statements are a missed opportunity, but there never associate myself with, as to whether the are other aspects, too. The protection of areas of consequences really are unintended. outstanding natural beauty, to which the Minister I shall give examples. Paragraphs in section 5.8 of referred in his introduction, and national parks is, I EN-1, on the historic environment, almost exactly fear, weakened in the revised drafts. One can identify repeat existing protections in PPS5, except that they this weakening by looking at the issue of the national remove references to non-designated areas. In particular, grid and the Holford principles. Perhaps I could be paragraphs 5.8.12 and 5.8.17 add the word “designated” forgiven for drawing in this matter again on the wisdom— to existing language in PPS5, thereby weakening protection there is a lot of wisdom and experience there—of for non-designated heritage assets, such as the buried CPRE. remains of Roman Winchester. According to English The majority of 1,100 public responses to questions Heritage, these are of at least equivalent importance on electricity transmission policies in the first drafts of to that of many places that are designated. To give a the NPSs, which was almost a third of the 3,000 sense of scale, less than 15 per cent of historic buildings responses received to the consultation on all six NPSs on farms are nationally designated. as a whole, called for stronger policies to control the Paragraph 5.9.9 of EN-1, on visual and landscape visual impact of overhead lines. That is a pretty substantial impacts, repeats the new contribution-to-the-regional- indication of public feeling and what the public are economy criterion which first appeared in the previous looking for. draft EN-1. This is a major departure from existing Disturbingly, however, the second draft of the NPS protections for nationally designated areas and significantly on electricity networks proposes to weaken the standing reduces their protection. of the Holford rules. The original draft stated that Paragraph 5.12.8 identifies developer contributions decision makers should recognise that the rules should as a material consideration for planning decisions. It is form the basis for the approach to routing new overhead right to consider these benefits through the planning lines, and applicants should be expected to follow process. However,the NPS should specify that contributions them where possible. This latest draft says only that must relate to the purpose of the project. For example, decision-makers should bear the rules in mind. This community benefits for energy projects should contribute would mean a significant weakening of the rules. It is to local energy saving or microgeneration. likely to mean that there will be no requirement on I feel very sad. I have talked about the thinking that either electricity companies to demonstrate that they went on during the war about the kind of Britain that have sought to avoid damaging impacts to important we wanted to have when it was won. Paragraph 5.10.12 areas of landscape or on the decision maker to base its of EN-1 advises applicants on ways in which to circumvent evaluation of a proposed overhead transmission line green belt protection. That is deplorable. scheme on whether the Holford rules have been met. On Thursday, nuclear policy is to be discussed and Nor is there any expectation that the mitigation measures this is therefore not the time to do so. However, there is suggested in paragraph 2.8.9 of EN-5 should be carried a close interrelationship. Apart from all the other out for schemes where one or more of the Holford issues that I have mentioned—aesthetic, environmental rules are not met. The effect of this could well be and the rest—there are of course geological considerations. seriously to weaken the protection of the countryside This was recently brought home tellingly by the earthquake from unnecessary and intrusive energy infrastructure. in Cumbria. I raised this with the Minister in a Written Of course, since the NPS was drafted, significant Question and I am grateful for his full and helpful policy changes have occurred, the most notable of reply, which noble Lords can read for themselves in which is the review announced by National Grid on Hansard. In that reply, he says: 15 December of its policy on undergrounding electricity “Vibrations associated with earthquakes experienced in the lines. This review comes in the context of a review of UK will not significantly affect a repository at depth, but any the costs of undergrounding led by the Institution of potential for changes to the rock mass containing a GDF must be Engineering and Technology and KEMA. Their estimate thoroughly investigated”. —[Official Report, 10/1/11; col. WA375.] of costs appears to be much lower than the inflated We are talking about hundreds of years ahead. figures cited in the previous draft NPSs. In the light of I wonder whether some of our successors may look these reviews and of the scale of proposed new electricity very closely at that confident prediction that vibrations transmission infrastructure, will the Minister not agree associated with earthquakes experienced in the UK that the Holford rules should surely continue to form will not significantly affect a repository at depth. It the basis of planning for new overhead lines, and that does not sound to me like quite the careful drafting the IPC should be empowered to require underground that there should be on a matter of this significance. or undersea transmission in areas which are environmentally sensitive? 4.40 pm Before I conclude, I wish to deal, if I may, with Lord Reay: My Lords, I find myself in a position in what have been described as “minor changes” to the which I may rain somewhat on the parade. As I see it, new drafting. After quite a number of years in politics, the NPSs are essentially tools designed to help force I am always very cautious about minor changes in through the planning system the Government’s energy drafting, because they sometimes have far more policy, which, above all, reflects a quixotic desire to implications than are recognised. I suggest that the achieve the most exacting renewable energy targets in public have not been alerted at all well to the implications the world at whatever cost there may be to economic of some of the so-called minor changes and their—I growth and irrespective of whether any other country shall be generous—unintended consequences, although does likewise. GC 131 Statement for Energy (EN-1)[11 JANUARY 2011] Statement for Energy (EN-1) GC 132

It is on wind power that the Government must applied for a guaranteed 20 years, whatever happens place virtually all their hopes of achieving their renewable to subsidies in the future. In such a way has the green energy targets. Last year renewable energy provided obsession resulted in the mortgaging of our future. 6.6 per cent of our electricity and, out of that, wind I should like to say something about gas and take power only 2.4 per cent. Nevertheless, only wind power up a point that the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin of Roding, has shown any substantial growth, having tripled the made. I could find no proper discussion in any of the amount of electricity it has generated in the past four NPSs about shale gas, and I find that astonishing. years, while hydro and biomass have not managed Even the Committee on Climate Change, in its report increases of even 20 per cent. However, the main that was published at about the same time, had something trouble with onshore wind from the Government’s to say on the subject, including this: point of view is that it is extremely unpopular. It is “There is the possibility that potentially abundant supplies of noteworthy that the Committee on Climate Change, in unconventional gas will result in considerably lower gas prices”; its recently published Fourth Carbon Budget report, recognised that the unpopularity of onshore wind and this: turbines poses a risk to their deployment. In the “The emergence of unconventional gas supplies, particularly measured—indeed, understated—words of the committee in the North American market, has led to the prospect of a on page 248, possible new ‘dash for gas’ in some regions of the world”. Yet the Government apparently cannot find space in “there are questions over the extent to which the full practical several hundred pages of their energy national policy potential can be exploited, given local opposition in some areas”. statements to acknowledge the existence of this potentially There are now several hundred protest groups throughout game-changing development. Gas is now cheap, the the country, tenaciously opposing the imposition of price having decoupled from the oil price, and it is industrial-scale turbines on their rural landscapes. In going to be accessible in many countries worldwide, an increasing number of cases, they have persuaded not least in Europe. It emits 50 per cent to 70 per cent planning inspectors of the justice of their case. less carbon than coal, with the result that when the previous “dash for gas” took place in the 1990s and The Government’s answer to this seems to be to gas to some extent took over from coal, our power follow the example of the developers and seek to bribe station carbon emissions fell overall by some 30 per local authorities with financial rewards if they grant cent. planning permission in the first place. There are provisions to enable this in the Localism Bill. In such a way do What is the point of persisting with ever-rising the Government seek to reconcile their claim to be subsidies for wind power in order to meet renewable handing more powers of decision to local authorities energy targets when abundant, cheap and relatively with their determination to impose on them their CO2-clean gas is available? What is the point of having green agenda. However, it may be—I hope that it will to install 130-plus gigawatts of generating power in be—that the planning system that we still have, enforced order to be able to provide 100 per cent backup for ultimately by the Planning Inspectorate that we still wind power, when 80 or 90 gigawatts would be enough have, will succeed in protecting the countryside from to satisfy peak demand using any other fuels? Do the this onslaught. In that case, our planning system, so Government think that consumers will tolerate ever-rising wonderfully successful in the last century in protecting electricity bills in order to be able to enjoy the mystical our landscape from uncontrolled ribbon development, advantage of having their electricity powered by wind may save it for a second time this century from the rather than more cheaply by gas? At Question Time worst consequences of today’s scandalous vandalism. today, my noble friend the Minister seemed to wring his hands and say that it was regrettable that electricity Offshore wind is less unpopular because it is further prices were going up. The surest way of bringing them away; indeed, some of it is out of sight. That aside, it down would be to remove renewable energy subsidies. has even more disadvantages than onshore wind. As I turn to gas and the CCR requirement. It is clear the Committee on Climate Change report puts it: from EN-2 that the IPC may not give consent to any “Offshore wind generation has much more complex engineering combustion plant above 300 megawatts, including any aspects (e.g. relating to the salt-water environment), is at an gas-fired plant, that has not demonstrated carbon-capture earlier stage of deployment and is much more costly than onshore readiness. As I understand it, it is already the case wind”. today that any new large-scale gas plant, of which there are many in the pipeline—24 gigawatts’ worth, Indeed, it costs the poor consumer, who is paying for according to the Committee on Climate Change—must the subsidy, twice as much per unit of electricity demonstrate carbon-capture readiness. Is that correct? produced as onshore wind, and it is no more efficient If it is, what does that add to their costs? Does it result at producing it than onshore wind, with a load factor in delays? Has it affected where gas plants can be last year that was no higher than that for onshore sited? Could we have the Government’s views on that? wind, at 26 per cent. On CCS itself, the Government have already committed I have no doubt that circumstances will eventually £1 billion towards the cost of just the first of the four force the Government to retreat from their ruinously demonstration plants that they have planned. As I expensive policy, as other countries have already shown read it, they have already pledged to CCS as much as signs of doing. The tragedy is that so much will have all other countries combined. However, the signs of been wasted—indeed, scattered to the wind—in the success are not universally apparent. Last autumn, mean time. Each accredited wind farm will be able to Norway announced a vast increase in the cost of its claim its enormous ROC subsidy at the rate originally Mongstad project and put back by some years the GC 133 Statement for Energy (EN-1)[LORDS] Statement for Energy (EN-1) GC 134

[LORD REAY] the rules of safety that had been accepted worldwide expected completion date. I wonder whether the and have led to the very good record that the industry Government still hold faith in their own timetable. has. At the very least, the IPC should insist that the What is that timetable? port authority issue a clear statement of the regulatory I should like to say something about the grid and regime that it has introduced and a clear explanation take up what the noble Lord, Lord Judd, said. According of any variations on the generally accepted standards to the CPRE, we face what is expected to be the largest that have produced that good safety record. rollout of new power lines in a generation. This is I am even more disappointed about paragraph 2.11.6, required primarily to transport the electricity generated which comes under the heading “Factors influencing by wind farms in distant places to the centres of site selection by applicant”, and states: demand in the Midlands and the south-east. Even “The primary technical siting considerations for a conventional though those power lines will operate at the same LNG terminal will be the combination of a deepwater jetty for capacity as wind power’s load factor—that is, under berthing LNG carriers, the availability of a suitably large site for 30 per cent over the year—they must be capable of industrial development and pipeline access from the LNG terminal carrying full capacity for when the wind is right. to the National Transmission System”. There is absolutely no reference to offshore berthing Concern has been growing, as the noble Lord, Lord terminals, about which I spoke at considerable length Judd, said, about the damage that all this will do to the at our earlier sessions, and of which I gave more than landscape. I therefore welcome with him the consultation one example, particularly regarding the Adriatic, south that National Grid has launched on its approach to of Venice. There are huge advantages in such terminals undergrounding energy cables, as well as the study on because they can mean that the LNG vessels are the comparative costs of underground and overhead unloaded well away from population areas. What is cables which the Institution of Engineering and more, the pipelines can be much shorter because you Technology has agreed to undertake. Underground can site the terminals close to where you wish to cables are the rule in cities. Why cannot we see more of consume the gas. It is extraordinary that there is no them in the country? Like the noble Lord, I am reference at all to this highly desirable siting of terminals, concerned about the apparent weakening in the NPS which is the policy followed by a good many countries of the Holford rules. I have passed a question to the overseas. Minister’s officials asking why this apparent weakening has been introduced. I turn to pipeline safety. I did not really raise this on the previous occasion, but people have come to see me, I end by referring to the Met Office, that old friend. engineers of considerable experience, who have produced The Government place all their faith in immensely worrying evidence to me that safety standards have long-distant temperature forecasts provided by an not always been met to the highest standards in the organisation that has time and again given proof that construction of a major pipeline from Milford Haven it is not able to forecast accurately beyond about next across south Wales into England. I have photographic week, probably because its computers are programmed evidence shown to me of some of the shortcomings, to provide the answers that its masters so passionately and I take it seriously. More worrying still, the HSE desire; namely, evidence to show that they have been has said clearly that it does not have sufficient resources right all along and that we are on the verge of being to inspect the whole operation and check on every overwhelmed by a global warming catastrophe unless aspect. Yet we have rules that say that the pipeline we do something about it. How can it be sensible for safety regulations place general duties on all pipeline the Government to rely on that? Are the Government operators, and the pipelines have to be designed, establishing a most urgent enquiry, as they should, constructed and operated so that the risks are as low into why they should continue to pay £200 million a as is reasonably practical—ALARP, if that is the right year for the advice of the Met Office, which has just phrase for the safety standards. In paragraph 2.18.6 misled the whole country with regard to the weather in we are told that the pipeline operators should be able December, which in October it predicted would be to demonstrate “equivalent levels of safety” if they mild? Is this the best use of taxpayers’ money? Are move away from the ordinary established standards, there no better advisers around? and in paragraph 2.18.5 that: “In determining compliance, HSE expects pipeline operators 4.52 pm to apply relevant good practice as a minimum”. It is necessary, when we are dealing with pipelines that Lord Crickhowell: My Lords, I should like to speak can create real hazards and have done so elsewhere in briefly in the gap about the safety issues referred to by the world, that local people, who can be considerably my noble friend the Minister. I have to say that I find worried by the safety aspect, should be shown clear paragraph 2.4.2 of statement EN-4, about the maritime evidence, and the IPC should insist on clear statements, risks for LNG, extremely unsatisfactory. We are told of what safety precautions have been taken. The HSE that, must give full information so that people’s anxieties “the relevant Port Authority is responsible for ensuring that the can be properly mitigated. rules relating to safe port operations are followed. The IPC should be able to rely on these regulatory controls being properly applied and enforced”. 4.58 pm In my previous speeches, I indicated why our experience The Lord Bishop of Chester: My Lords, in the gap I in Milford Haven suggested that we should not be able doff my warm woolly hat, or even my mitre, in three to rely on that, because a port authority with a conflict directions—three areas where I think the policy statements of interest might decide, as it did in that case, to vary are inadequate. The first has been covered partly by GC 135 Statement for Energy (EN-1)[11 JANUARY 2011] Statement for Energy (EN-1) GC 136 the noble Lord, Lord Giddens, and partly by the noble by the noble Lord, Lord Reay. These are huge questions, Lord, Lord Reay, from very different perspectives: the quite apart from the cost. We have not been told of the economic impact of these policies simply is not spelt costs for CCS so far. out. Where is the £250 billion that is required by 2025 I hope that I can simply doff my cap in the direction to come from? How much will be paid by consumers of the Minister and ask for some replies—either today through their electricity bills? My electricity bill in or in writing. Scotland currently has government obligations of about 7 per cent. That will be much greater in the years to 5.02 pm come. How great? If electricity bills in this country get out of sync with those of other competitor countries, Lord Oxburgh: My Lords, I had not expected to it will produce unemployment, which is a moral speak today, but I should like to make a few comments consequence of policies that one does not always or in the gap on carbon capture and storage, in so far as it often accept. How can this be spelt out in a way that is has been mentioned in a number of noble Lords’ much more transparent? At the moment there is simply speeches. I declare an interest as honorary president of a deathly silence. the Carbon Capture and Storage Association. In a funny way, I wish we did not have to carry out carbon Secondly, due to the occupational hazards of being capture and storage, but as long as we are committed a bishop, I, too, cannot be here on Thursday, like my to providing energy to people in this country—an right reverend friend the Bishop of Liverpool, but I obligation similar to those of Governments and industries have a question about nuclear. The policy statement around the world—we have no choice, provided we makes a clear case for major nuclear investment, but believe that controlling CO2 concentrations in the why is there not the same subsidy as is available to atmosphere is one of our priorities. I associate myself wind power, given all the constraints and difficulties with the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Giddens, that exist in relation to wind power? I hope that the and others on the urgency of doing something about this. Government can answer that on Thursday. I will comment a little on the risk associated with CCS, to which the noble Lords, Lord Giddens and I should like to spend a little more time on the third Lord Teverson, referred. I do not think that there is area, and ask how these policies relate to events in the any serious technical risk associated with CCS technology; wider world. Every country on earth that has fossil it has for more than a year been demonstrated and fuels, especially underground oil and gas, feels a compelling operated by the Chinese on a 100-megawatt plant economic requirement to exploit them. We are told on north of Beijing, and they are implementing it at a page 13 of the report that it is the Government’s policy 300-megawatt plant further south. to maximise production of oil and gas from the North What is uncertain about carbon capture and storage Sea. If you are the Sudan or the United States of is the longer-term cost. In terms of what we do in this America, you feel the same compulsion. You would country and in Europe in general, the problem, to feel the same compulsion if you suddenly discovered which the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, was the first to vast amounts of additional gas in the form of shale refer, and others mentioned, is the infrastructure associated gas. What will become of the oil and gas that is taken with CCS. The Minister will be familiar with the out of the ground? It will be turned into carbon report of the expert group commissioned to look into dioxide; that is the only useful thing you can effectively this issue by his party shortly before the election—a do with it, because its value is tied up in the energy in group in which I have the honour to participate. One the carbon-carbon and carbon-hydrogen bonds in the thing is absolutely clear: if we are serious about carbon molecules. Whatever we do in this country, the great capture and storage, the lead time needed for the presumption must be that there will be a huge increase infrastructure is enormous. Perhaps this is something in carbon dioxide in the atmosphere worldwide. Any that tends to be forgotten, or not fully recognised, by policy in this country has to be co-ordinated much Governments and certainly by civil servants. We are more with international policy, lest we end up with talking here about heavy engineering. In terms of the very expensive energy and economic consequences capture technology, there is a lot of learning by doing. that we are not currently facing. This does not happen simply because it appears in the report of the Committee on Climate Change or a We are told on page 54 of EN-1 that the global government department. It is hard work. Frankly, the increase in coal production simply continues. What reason that we are not further ahead today is that will happen to that coal? It will be turned into carbon progress at a governmental level, and in a public dioxide. That is the only useful thing that you can do demonstration of government commitment, has been with it. It is extraordinary to assume that carbon glacial. We must move ahead rapidly. capture and storage will come to the rescue of all this. In a previous incarnation, I was a chemist—the very Although I commonly agree with the comments of foothills of science when compared with the noble the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, I hope the Minister Lord, Lord Oxburgh, and perhaps others here in the does not follow his advice and refer to CO2 as a Room. There are difficulties in the chemical processes pollutant. Let us bear in mind that life on earth would of capturing the carbon dioxide in the first place, not be possible without the CO2 in the atmosphere. potentially involving vast amounts of hydrogen and We have to be a little careful about what we call a carbon monoxide, both of which are very combustible pollutant. gases. Who will pay for transporting the CO2 through To pick up a final point made by several speakers, vast pipelines or for storing it underground? How shale gas is a game-changer. It is still a somewhat secure will that be geologically? That point was raised uncertain game-changer. It has certainly ensured the GC 137 Statement for Energy (EN-1)[LORDS] Statement for Energy (EN-1) GC 138

[LORD OXBURGH] if we had done so in the 18th century we would not complete decoupling of gas price from oil price. This have had a single canal. We have to recognise that we began about four years ago with the full-scale development must build for the future, and we must do it as well as of LNG. We are moving into a period of relatively we can in the context of what we have, but we really abundant gas. I will not say that it is cheap, but it is cannot look backwards in that way. significantly cheaper than oil and unlikely to increase I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh, that in price at the same rate as oil. I find it difficult to see carbon dioxide is not a pollutant, but black carbon is why anyone would want to build a further coal-fired a major concern that people ignore at their peril. It is plant in this country, given the likely availability of gas particularly damaging to the health of people here in the short term. Gas will certainly need to have CCS and throughout the world. Unless we do something applied to it. Shale gas is giving us a little time to catch about black carbon here, we will not be able to help our breath. It is not an answer but it will help us over the Indians, for example. In that country, black carbon the next few years. is a real issue for the health of its population. That leads to me to answer a point that I hope the 5.07 pm Minister will emphasise: of course we are doing more than other people, because we are taking the lead and Lord Deben: My Lords, I will say a word or two in because we want the physical and financial advantages the break. I first declare my interest and my involvement of doing so. If we want to get other people to do it, we in alternative forms of energy. I very much welcome have to do it first ourselves. I say to the right reverend these documents and the commitment of the Government Prelate the Bishop of Chester that I am entirely in to making the changes that they seek. favour of co-operation with our neighbours, but if we It would be a foolish and irresponsible Government want that co-operation we have to set the scene and who did not recognise that the overwhelming majority the leadership example. My only concern about the of scientific advice is that climate change is happening coalition policy on this is that we have to recognise and that mankind is affecting it. Even if that were that this is above all a European issue, that we have to untrue, a population of 9 billion and a shortage of work within the European Union, that the EU is resources will mean that most, if not all, of these crucial to the future of this, and that a little less actions would have to be taken in any case. The attacking of the EU and a little more support for it argument is over. There is no point in arguing; if you would make it very much easier to deliver what we do not believe in climate change, you must just accept need to do. the population argument and the changes that will be needed to reserve and conserve the resources that we 5.12 pm have. That means that those of us who are committed to this should also be careful to ensure that the cost of Baroness Smith of Basildon: My Lords, many of us the change is as low as possible. Cost-effectiveness is here today saw the old parliamentary year out with an crucial but it would be foolish to tell people that energy debate, and we are seeing the new year in with because they do not like the rise in the cost of electricity another one. I hope that that is not just an accident of we should not allow it happen. They will be much parliamentary timing by the usual channels; I think angrier if we allow the world to be endangered because that it shows the importance and urgency of the issues we have not taken these steps. before us today and the other issues that we are Can the Minister confirm that there is a real need to debating. Today’s debate is welcome. I thank the get rid of several of the impediments to what we are Government for ensuring that we have two debates; trying to do? I note that the Government have already there will be a separate debate later this week on the set up a group of specialists in the agricultural area to nuclear statement. look at how impediments to agriculture can be removed. Unfortunately, I was not part of your Lordships’ There are many such impediments here. For example, House during the previous debates. Having read them, the economic advantage to the providers of overhead though, it is clear to me that the Minister has taken on power lines of having a new power line mitigates the board a number of comments that were made, which much more sensible policy of restringing old power has been welcomed by the noble Lords, Lord Giddens, lines. It is simply to their advantage to have a large Lord Teverson and Lord Jenkin of Roding. I congratulate amount of new investment in those circumstances. the Government on recognising the scale of the challenge There is a whole range of such areas which are not that is before us and on taking on board the comments covered in these documents but could very much that have been made. In many ways, these revised benefit the nation. policy statements are aspirational, which emphasises Someone said that offshore wind is much more how crucial they are—they are the framework under popular than onshore wind. I chair an offshore wind which the decisions, including how we secure energy company, and I will tell your Lordships why it is much supplies and the infrastructure to deliver them, will be more popular: because it is a long way away. Once you made in future. start connecting it onshore, though, a good deal of We have heard today that there is evidence of the that unpopularity will return to it. We have to be urgency of the need to address infrastructure. By 2018 pretty tough about the changes in the planning one-quarter of our energy capacity will close, and as arrangements, and I fundamentally disagree with the much as 30 per cent will have to be replaced by 2020. noble Lord, Lord Judd, on this. We really cannot run We see many of our nuclear power stations coming to our whole system on that basis; if we had done that in the end of their lives and coal-fired power stations the 19th century we would not have had a railway, and being retired, but at the same time, by the Government’s GC 139 Statement for Energy (EN-1)[11 JANUARY 2011] Statement for Energy (EN-1) GC 140 own projections, we are seeing energy demand increasing Particularly after listening to my noble friend Lord and forecast to continue to increase significantly. If we Judd and the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, it strikes are to meet the nation’s and our citizens’ energy demands, me that if the Minister and his colleagues are to take we have to create enough energy generation to meet on board comments made in this debate and, as a them at all times. result, seek to make amendments to the national policy statements, will we have to go through the entire These are huge issues that, as the statements recognise, process of consultation, revised documents and procedures can be addressed only by a combination or a blend of in this House again. Or is the debate today simply an solutions. We will need to invest in carbon capture and opportunity for noble Lords to speak and will have no storage and the rapid decarbonisation of the electricity impact on what can go in the documents and what sector. We will need to see increased capacity in renewables, changes can be made? in low-carbon energy and decentralised energy. As other noble Lords have indicated, we have to take this Finally, given that the ratification process refers in the context of other issues under debate. The energy only to the House of Commons and not your Lordships’ and market reform proposals, although not being House, would it be helpful for the other place if, prior debated today, are vital to progress, as will be our to its deliberations, there were always to be an advisory forthcoming debate, which I am sure we all look debate in your Lordships’ House that could help inform forward to, on the Government’s Energy Bill. None of the process? these issues can be seen in isolation. From these statements, there has to be the political Can I first ask the Minister about the process? This will to tackle the issues. As much as we welcome what has been also raised by noble Lords. The Government’s is in these documents, the Government will want to response to the Select Committee, which was emphasised show that they will put support and investment behind by the Minister, made it clear that they want the these policy statements for them to be truly effective. “strongest possible democratic legitimacy” for these In this regard, can I raise two areas of concern? The statements, and I am sure that all of us would applaud first relates to another clause in the Localism Bill and that aim. Now that the Localism Bill has been published, the Government’s plans to abolish the Infrastructure we have had the opportunity to look at Clause 109 on Planning Commission and replace it with a new body national policy statements and how Parliament should called the major infrastructure planning unit, within ratify them. Under this clause, if an NPS is an amended the Planning Inspectorate. When the IPC was established version of an earlier proposal, further consultation in 2008, the intention was for it to be an independent need not be carried out if the earlier proposal was body with the expertise to make balanced independent consulted on and the amendments that have been decisions without ministerial political influence. It made do not materially affect the policy. The clause sought to make the planning system for major goes on to state that where a proposal is laid before infrastructure projects quicker, more efficient and set Parliament for approval by the House of Commons, it within clear guidelines, whereby it would be more is not necessary to comply with the parliamentary predictable. That laid down the right conditions for scrutiny requirements in relation to the proposal, if investment in the kind of energy infrastructure that we they have been complied with in an earlier proposal. urgently need. I therefore have two questions—and one that occurred Under the new system proposed by the Government, to me during the comments of the noble Lord, Lord the new body, the MIPU, will make recommendations Crickhowell. The first relates to the definition of material to the Secretary of State, who will make decisions in amendments. Perhaps I have picked up on the scepticism accordance with these national policy statements. The of my noble friend Lord Judd about the language. The Government will have to ensure that these plans do definition of material amendments is a matter of not add delays to the system or remove the clarity and judgment for the Secretary of State. Would the certainty that the industry needs if it is to invest in amendments in these revised documents be classified energy infrastructure, particularly renewables and, as by the Minister as being material and, as such, if the we will be discussing later in the week, nuclear. Localism Bill’s provisions were in force today, would Also, given that the Localism Bill is not due to be these changes be subject to parliamentary scrutiny, in enacted until 2012, it would be helpful if the Minister the way that they are now? said something about the transitional arrangements and what will happen before the MIPU is established. Secondly, what is the level of parliamentary scrutiny I am sure he will understand that we are anxious that a that would not be required? Does this mean that if the further change in the system should not create delays Secretary of State in future does not consider that any that have a potential impact on energy security. revisions made to the policy statements are not material, parliamentary scrutiny or ratification would not be My other concern is about the investment required. required? I raise this because, given the significant I concur entirely with the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, legal weight that will be given to the national policy about the need for certainty in this. Can I ask the statements under the proposals in the Localism Bill to Minister for further information on the green investment get rid of the IPC, I would totally support the bank in this regard? We already know that the £1 billion Government’s intention to ensure that these statements investment being proposed is significantly less than have “the strongest possible democratic legitimacy”. the suggested figure of around £6 billion needed to What I am not clear about is how this will be achieved make the necessary impact, but I know that the under the proposals. It would be helpful if the Minister Government hope that private investment will be could clarify and reassure me on those points. brought in. GC 141 Statement for Energy (EN-1)[LORDS] Statement for Energy (EN-1) GC 142

[BARONESS SMITH OF BASILDON] process. It would be helpful and I would appreciate it Can I share with the Minister one of my concerns if the Minister could share that information with both about this? The green investment bank will be tempted the House and the wider public as he gets it. to invest in and focus on tried and trusted technologies— These are highly complex issues. Significant planning that is, the safe bets that it is pretty certain will deliver and risk analysis is essential. If, for any reason, any of results—rather than seek to develop new, potentially the assumptions on which the Government have based more risky technologies that could have greater long-term their plans are wrong, or if there are delays in providing potential. Can the Government give any further infrastructure caused by planning or other reasons, information about how the bank will operate and how the Government will have to find other ways of meeting it will guard against those problems? the targets to ensure energy security and low-carbon Turning to the specifics of the documents, I will energy. The noble Lords, Lord Giddens and Lord look at the need case. Although we agree that there is Teverson, also raised this issue in relation to carbon an urgent need for a diverse range of new, nationally capture and storage. What if it proves not to be significant energy infrastructure—I emphasise “diverse successful? I take on board the comments of the noble range”—does the Minister consider that enough is Lord about its effectiveness but that has yet to be being done to avoid this dash for gas without any tested so that we and investors can have absolute carbon abatement; and that the case for additional confidence. What are the implications if it is not electricity capacity has been effectively made? successful? Is there a plan B? In the overarching document it is calculated that I noted that the recommendation from the Committee the 26 gigawatts of required new electricity energy on Climate Change, endorsed by the Select Committee supply, over and above the 33 gigawatts that would in another place, that it should be clear in the NPS need to come from renewables, would in effect be that the electricity sector should be fully decarbonised determined by industry. As the right reverend Prelate by 2030. That was rejected by the Government. I hope the Bishop of Liverpool said, there is a concern that that the Government can look at this issue again to see the balance could come largely from gas, thus undermining if it is possible. both the Government’s declared commitment to an Finally, there is something that I was disappointed energy mix and carbon reduction. Since the earlier that the Minister did not raise in his speech. He will NPS, projections for gas demand have changed understand why I am doing so. The previous Government significantly. It would be helpful if the Minister could paved the way on these policy statements and did explain why that is the case. Given that this is a much of the groundwork on the documents. The greatest significant change, when does he think the NPSs will fear now must be delay. That means getting the planning, next be updated? assumptions and alternatives right. If we do not, we If we look at the new gas capacity in the pipeline— underestimate the seriousness of the issue and the forgive the pun—there is already over 14 gigawatts implications of not getting it right. I welcome our with consent, being built or still in the pre-IPC regime. debate today. The challenge now is to ensure that the There are also further gas and nuclear applications in Government can deliver these objectives. We will do the IPC system at the moment. The noble Lord, Lord our best, as always, to co-operate with the Government Judd, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of to ensure that we have energy security and—as I Liverpool raised concerns on this issue about the need pointed out in my question to the noble Lord in the to assess those applications at different stages of the House earlier, when I was grateful for his answer—that planning process. Obviously, the Government want to consumers do not pay the highest price. I look forward encourage greater capacity for renewables as part of to the Minister’s comments. the diverse range, but there is a concern that the new gas and nuclear applications could crowd out the 5.25 pm renewables. Can the Minister give an assurance that this will not happen? How will he ensure that we Lord Marland: I thank all noble Lords who have strengthen our renewable capacity as part of ensuring contributed and all those who have come to listen; it is that we have a diverse range of new energy infrastructure much appreciated and shows the keenness with which and meet our target for renewables of 15 per cent by we take this subject. As the noble Baroness said, we 2020? finished the year off with energy, we are starting it with energy, and, my goodness, we are going to be The noble Lord, Lord Giddens, spoke of progress spending a lot of time on energy over the next month. on renewables in Spain, particularly on wind energy. We have got a lot on our plate. I hope that despite Does the Minister share my concern that Renewables some complaining in the ranks, noble Lords here UK has reported a 50 per cent drop in planning recognise that this Government do listen. I think that approvals for wind farms in England over the last it is probably mistaken to get into the technicalities of year? What plans do the Government have to reverse a lot of the parliamentary procedure, because we this trend? have a lot of conversations outside the Chamber—we Looking at the figures for projections of capacity in have a lot of listening; we have breakfast; we have had part 3 of the overarching statement, the Minister will all sorts of things. I hope that you agree that we are be aware of the potential for a significant energy gap. listening. At the same time, there are doubts about the assessment The reason we are doing this is that this is a subject on which this is based. There will need to be a more that transcends all Governments. It is fundamental to thorough assessment of electricity demand and generation, the country that we have a time line that goes to 2100, including of that already in the pipeline of the planning as I shall enunciate in a few minutes. In fact, our own GC 143 Statement for Energy (EN-1)[11 JANUARY 2011] Statement for Energy (EN-1) GC 144 pathway goes to 2050. So this is a major subject that in to that timetable. It is important that this should my view is largely outside the subject of party politics. happen, and I am grateful that my noble friend Lord As I think everyone will also understand, we have Oxburgh should give such encouragement in this area some serious heavy lifting to do. We have had a long from a scientific point of view. time of inactivity; a long time of resting on the laurels of the wonderful wealth of oil from the North Sea The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, mentioned which has kept this country afloat. As I said in an consultation with local planning authorities and where earlier Question today in answer to some of the noble we go on that. It is a requirement of the Act that local Lord’s questions, we have got to spend more than planning has to happen first. That is the normal £110 billion on our infrastructure just to get it up to practice that we have had in this country and we are scratch in the next 10 years. This is a massive project not changing it. For major infrastructure projects, we that confronts the Government today. are abolishing the IPC because we believe that it is a quango—it is not an elected body—and ultimately it I turn to the specific questions which, if I may, I should be the Secretary of State who makes the decision shall take in order. The noble Lord, Lord Giddens, as on major planning projects. We have debated and always, is excellent on this subject. He questions our talked about that on many occasions. The noble Lord striving for renewables and indicates that we want to also talked about the biomass timescale. That is set achieve 30 per cent. In fact, as I said in our opening out in the Renewables Obligation Order 2011, which speech, we are committed to 50 per cent—which, even should be implemented in April this year. for a thicko like me, is larger than 30 per cent. That is our commitment: to have half our energy from renewables I enjoyed hearing the dulcet tones of the right by 2050. The noble Lord is also right that there is a reverend Prelate the Bishop of Liverpool this morning huge amount to do. on “Thought for the Day” as I was trying to think for the day and about how to deal with this debate; it was The noble Lord also asked what happens if CCS marvellous to hear them coming through on the subject does not work. I am very grateful to my noble friend of bankers. He can talk about any subject, can’t he? It Lord Oxburgh, who really said it all for me. It means is marvellous to have such expertise in this House and that I have to say very little—so I will not. If it does indeed in Liverpool. The right reverend Prelate wants not work, which we fully intend it to do, we will to know what goals we have set ourselves. Pathway obviously rely on nuclear. I shall come back to the 2050 is one of the clearest documents that have been CCS demo project later, if I may. produced by the Government and shows the enormous challenges and the principles that we have to confront. The noble Lord also asked whether we should put The document is there as a target, and 2050 is a long faith in ETSs. ETSs are what we have got as a European way off. standard. As the noble Lord, Lord Deben, said, we should listen to the EU on these subjects. I do not The right reverend Prelate asked us to raise the entirely agree with him, but we should listen on some subject of nuclear risk assessment, particularly in the flood things, and I think that this is good because it works. areas. We can do no more than consult the experts, We should challenge it the whole time and ensure that who have laid out the agreement up to the year 2100— it is ticking the box. But there is a considerable take-up hopefully, I will still be alive then—which is the timeframe in this area. within which the flood assessment is contained. If I could wave a magic wand, of course we would He also mentioned carbon counting, an issue that have targeted regional planning. It makes complete he has raised before, and I am grateful for that. There sense. It requires a lot of cross-government co-operation, is a suggestion that the IPC should be responsible for and now that we have been in government for six to carbon counting. We think that the Government’s nine months, it is a subject where we should be looking policy in this area is perfectly adequate. Obviously it is to achieve, particularly if we are going to develop the something that we have to take seriously and, as with offshore renewables industry. If this is going to become all these things, I will take the right reverend Prelate’s one of our great exporting subjects, we should have a suggestions away and consider them further. With centre of excellence, and I have suggested to our regard to his comments on China; yes, these issues Secretary of State that that is a subject we should take have been raised with the Chinese delegation at a on. I am grateful for those comments. private meeting with the Secretary of State as well as through the Prime Minister’s Office. The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, asked about the CCS competition update. As I am leading the negotiations There was the issue of the gap between planning on the competition, I can tell the Committee that next applications and the IPC and when that will happen; week we have our second meeting with the chairmen the noble Baroness asked about that as well. As my of Shell, National Grid and Iberdrola at 8 am on 19 noble friend Lord Jenkin said, we are grateful that the February. They are coming back to us with their offer IPC has thoroughly co-operated in this process, and it regarding what they can achieve within the budget is to be commended. In fact, I think that my noble that we have set them. I have no doubt that we will not friend went public in saying that it should co-operate accept their offer, they will go back and then come with us, and I am glad that it has taken on board what back again, hopefully, with something that is more he has suggested. There are two planning applications acceptable. The timetable that we have set ourselves is for power stations that are likely to be approved by the a vigorous one; I want to see heads of agreement IPC, but anything other than that will be in this signed early this year with a view to having a legally interregnum period, which looks like being a fairly binding document by October, and they are committed smooth process. GC 145 Statement for Energy (EN-1)[LORDS] Statement for Energy (EN-1) GC 146

[LORD MARLAND] It goes on to list what the Holford rules state—on My noble friend Lord Jenkin, eruditely as always, pages 12 and 13, for those who have the statement—and asked a number of questions on the issue of offshore then continues: and onshore. It is our belief, and I think it is a “In considering whether all or part of proposed electricity Conservative tenet, that market forces are best placed lines should be placed underground to obtain the benefits of to determine how the two marry up together. I have reductions in landscape and/or visual impacts, the IPC will need referred to that, and I will do so again at a later stage. to weigh the reductions in visual intrusion against the impacts (economic, environmental and social) and technical challenges of The noble Lord also mentioned shale gas, as have a undergrounding”. number of noble Lords. We welcome shale gas, of That seems to be a common-sense approach. course; if it reduces the price of gas, that will be fantastic. There are no signs as yet that the Americans Lord Judd: I am grateful to the Minister for giving are going to supply it to the outside world, as they are way, and it is wonderful to have his emotional sympathy intending at the moment to keep it within their own for the general drift of my commitment, but can he country, but anything that reduces the price of gas will spell out what he understands by the injunction to be of great benefit. “bear in mind”, in terms of actually achieving a situation in which we can be confident that these I have mentioned parliamentary process, but will things will prevail? now mention it in more detail. I am not going to try to second-guess the parliamentary process regarding these Lord Marland: I look to the opening words, which national policy statements. It is not for me to do so; I state that the Holford rules were, am only a young whippersnapper in this world. But “intended as a common sense approach”. the changes that are being made through the Localism In other words, it was a very 1959, laissez-faire rule. Bill will give the opportunity, within a 21-day period, What we are doing is hardening the rules. We are not for people to register their amendments, and then giving anything away on them. We have merely said there will be a vote on them. The difference between that the Holford rules should apply, but if there are now and then is that that vote will be binding, whereas implications in terms of whether it is not geologically before it was not worth the paper it was written on. If feasible to put lines underground, the rules should be you add that to the general consultation that we are borne in mind for the same reason as the noble Lord, having through these various debates and parliamentary Lord Deben, said—the cost. We cannot impose unrealistic issues, I feel confident that all noble Lords will recognise costs just because we are completely determined, as that we are having our say. The Energy Bill is starting the noble Lord, Lord Judd, and I are, to place those in this House, where it will be honed, argued over, lines underground. However, I assure him that he has debated and made fit for purpose. That shows the my greatest support and sympathy, and I have taken intent of the Government and the recognition of the on board what he said. I shall fight the good fight, as excellent contribution that noble Lords make here. he will, on these issues. My noble friend Lord Jenkin raised a number of I am also grateful for the noble Lord’s point that we other issues. I will be happy to discuss them with him have to consider the future of our society. That is afterwards or put them in writing to him. Some of the fundamental, and it is something that your Lordships’ issues refer to nuclear and I will deal with them, if I House takes more seriously than most, because we may, in the nuclear debate, on which I notice his name take a long-term view of these things. What the noble is down to speak. He asked why we have an interim Lord said was very important. milestone of 2025. We have to have interim milestones; My noble friend Lord Reay is well known for his we have to have something that most of us can believe views on onshore wind. I cannot comment on whether we will actually see, and 2025 is a perfectly reasonable I share them or not, because onshore wind is a government figure. policy. However, I am always interested in his views. He asked some good questions. Onshore wind is part I was disappointed that the noble Lord, Lord Judd, of a mixed portfolio required under our 2050 pathway was not as complimentary as he might be, although I if we are to supply this country with twice the supply took some of the serious and excellent comments that that it needs today. Onshore wind supplies not a he made on board. I take no persuading of his view on significant amount but a relevant amount. We know overhead power cables; in fact, when I was a parliamentary where the significant amounts of supply will come candidate I was asked what was the one Private Member’s from, and we talked about them earlier. We want to be Bill that I would introduce and I said the removal of very careful about getting sidetracked into the smaller overhead cables, so he is preaching to the converted. aspects of supply and concentrate our firepower as a Of course the CPRE is an excellent organisation, and Government on the major things, such as new nuclear, we listen to it with great intent—well, I do, anyway. CCS and converting our waste into something much I really think that the noble Lord has got the wrong more effective. end of the stick on the Holford rules. I want to read Of course, onshore wind has tremendous support something that I read earlier, paragraph 2.8.5 in EN-5: in certain parts of the country, particularly in Scotland and Wales, where local communities have come together “Guidelines for the routeing of new overhead lines, the Holford and determined that there are benefits. Equally, a huge Rules, were originally set out in 1959 by Lord Holford, intended number of communities in England do not see the as a common sense approach to the routeing of new overhead lines. These guidelines were reviewed and updated by the industry financial benefits to them. Luckily, we have rigorous in the 1990s, and the IPC should bear them and any updates in planning procedures which ensure that fair play is mind as they examine applications for overhead lines”. maintained. GC 147 Statement for Energy (EN-1)[11 JANUARY 2011] Statement for Energy (EN-1) GC 148

The noble Lord asked what the effects are on the for us. He rightly says, in the true Conservative way, CCR requirement and what extra costs there are on that we will look at the costs. We cannot waste taxpayers’ the companies for fulfilling it. There are no delays at money and must be careful. We must also remove any the moment because everyone who applies for CCS is impediments to this substantial development. just buying the land next to them. There have been no I will be as brief as I can in answering the noble problems with approval on that. The only extra cost is Baroness, Lady Smith, whom I thank for her co-operation. that of purchasing the land. I have mentioned two or She asked about the Localism Bill and what is material three good points about CCS and the Holford rules, in the Secretary of State putting a matter to the vote. with which I hope the noble Lord is satisfied. I am not the arbiter of what is material and neither is As far as the Met Office is concerned, the Government she. We all know in our heart of hearts what is should review several things. First, should we be the material and what we would expect. We will bring the owners of the Met Office? There are compelling reasons usual pressures to bear through the other place or here for the Government not owning an institution, and I to make sure that anything material gets debated am on the PEX-A committee which is reviewing whether because of the cross-relationship. the Met Office and its advice should be owned by the I mentioned earlier our reason for abolishing the Government. However, people tell me that there is IPC. The noble Baroness asked me to talk about the only one nation in the world that does not own its own green investment bank, which is complicated. We have meteorological office and that is Malta. That would be committed money to it. It is being set up primarily to an interesting combination. commit to new technologies. We are investing taxpayers’ I am disappointed that the noble Lord, Lord money and other banking institutions’ money in it. Crickhowell, did not applaud me to the rooftops for Therefore, there will be a rigorous test of whether it is the changes that we have made on LNG and siting. We a profitable enterprise. It is not a giveaway bank; it is have made great strides and have listened carefully to an investment bank. However, it is an investment what he has said, as I said in my opening speech. The opportunity that will be available to people with new noble Lord, who is an expert in this field, notes that technologies to help them develop, provided they have this is a complicated area. There is no single legislative a profitable end to them. We are not in the business of body and there are many different licensing conditions. unprofitable enterprises. Clearly, the Government are absolutely adamant that The need case that was referred to is set out clearly safety at all standards must be maintained. We have in the 2050 Pathways Analysis, which is a very substantive the best health and safety standards in the world. On document. If the noble Baroness would like to discuss the pipelines, he raises the very good point that standards issues on that after the event, I am very happy to do should be maintained and constantly reviewed. Lessons so. She also mentioned Renewables UK, the “dash for should be learnt from the BP incident in the Gulf of gas” and all those sorts of things. We need to have a Mexico. We are reappraising standards rigorously.Perhaps broad portfolio in order to achieve our 2050 pathway, the noble Lord is going to applaud me to the rooftops. which is an enormous task. There is no point in Lord Crickhowell: Clearly, we are not just dealing saying, “I don’t like that, and I don’t like that”. We with the safety of individuals and property. The security have to like it all because we need it, and we owe it to of our whole energy policy is dependent on these the next generations among us here to provide it. We facilities being safe. However, I hope that the Minister cannot say, in our own isolated world, that we think and his colleagues will look again at the possibility of this and we think that. We owe it to the next generations referring to offshore LNG facilities, rather than taking to deliver their requirements in a low-carbon, secure-energy the view that these facilities must in future always be framework. That is why I commend these NPSs to the close to centres of population with long pipelines. Committee. Examples from other parts of the world should guide Baroness Smith of Basildon: I thank the noble Lord us here. for the time and care that he has taken to address many of the questions asked of him today. Perhaps I Lord Marland: As I said, the noble Lord has great can press him on one point that I do not think he was knowledge in this area and we take on board what he able to answer. He said, in response to the comments has to say. I am perfectly happy to discuss this with of the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, that he would him later to see how we can improve. It is a complicated look at it again and take it back and discuss it with area, as the noble Lord knows. colleagues. If he were to do that and if changes were I will deal with the issue, raised by the right reverend made to the national policy statement as a result, Prelate the Bishop of Chester, of nuclear subsidy. The would that have to go through another round of Government do not intend to provide a subsidy for consultation and another revised document, or could nuclear because it is a very mature market. Subsidies it be inserted as a result of the consultation and before should be for new technologies, which we can pump-prime it was put to a vote in the House of Commons? to generate electricity. Of course we should maximise our resources in oil and gas, but we should also Lord Marland: This matter goes to the House of husband them because they do not last forever, as the Commons for a vote, where they can vote. It will noble Lord, Lord Deben, said. That requirement is happen in the spring. They are perfectly entitled to satisfied. We have just granted licences in the Shetlands have amendments put in there for consultation. It may to allow new oil drilling to happen. or may not be feasible that the comments of the noble I thank the noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh, for answering Lord, Lord Crickhowell, will be something that the half my questions and the noble Lord, Lord Deben, Government want to achieve. I am happy to explore for his sage-like remarks and for laying out the landscape them with him, as one would with any development of GC 149 Statement for Energy (EN-1)[LORDS] Statement for Electricity (EN-5) GC 150

[LORD MARLAND] Revised Draft National Policy Statement a policy, but whether that would come in this policy, in for Gas Supply Infrastructure and Gas and an attachment to the energy policy or in future national policy statements is another matter. We are trying to Oil Pipelines (EN-4) achieve what we have set out here in this policy. Commons Amendments

Motion agreed. 5.52 pm Revised Draft National Policy Statement Moved By Lord Marland for Fossil Fuel Electricity Generating That the Grand Committee do report to the Infrastructure (EN-2) House that it has considered the Revised Draft Considered in Grand Committee National Policy Statement for Gas Supply Infrastructure and Gas and Oil Pipelines (EN-4). 5.52 pm Moved By Lord Marland Motion agreed. That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Revised Draft National Policy Statement for Fossil Fuel Electricity Revised Draft National Policy Statement Generating Infrastructure (EN-2). for Electricity Networks Infrastructure Motion agreed. (EN-5) Revised Draft National Policy Statement Considered in Grand Committee for Renewable Energy Infrastructure 5.53 pm (EN-3) Moved By Lord Marland Considered in Grand Committee 5.52 pm That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Revised Draft Moved By Lord Marland National Policy Statement for Electricity Networks That the Grand Committee do report to the Infrastructure (EN-5). House that it has considered the Revised Draft National Policy Statement for Renewable Energy Motion agreed. Infrastructure (EN-3). Motion agreed. Committee adjourned at 5.53 pm. WS 195 Written Statements[11 JANUARY 2011] Written Statements WS 196

integrated approach to reduce CO2 emissions from Written Statements light-duty vehicles. During the exchange of views that followed, Environment Ministers indicated their support Tuesday 11 January 2011 for the compromise that had been reached, including the long-term target of average CO2 emissions of 147 grammes per kilometre in 2020. The European Parliament Correction to Commons Oral Question is expected to vote on the proposal at its February Statement plenary session. The Council also adopted conclusions that welcomed The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Neville- the outcome of the Nagoya meeting of the Convention Jones): My honourable friend the Minister of State for on Biodiversity in October, and committed the EU to Immigration (Damian Green) has today made the implementation of the decisions taken. following Written Ministerial Statement. Further conclusions were adopted on improving I regret to inform the House that there was an environmental policy instruments. Several member states inaccuracy in some of the information referred to in expressed the importance they attach to having a my Answer to an Oral Question from the honourable seventh environment action programme to succeed the Member for East Lothian on 6 December 2010 (Official current one which covers the period up to 2012. The Report, col. 17). UK stressed the need for the new framework to be The response quoted an e-mail sent by the honourable based on an assessment of the current sixth environment Member for Glasgow South West, which stated that action programme, and highlighted the move to an “Mrs Namir Rad … was not given only 24 hours’ environmentally sustainable, low-carbon, resource-efficient notice” of her impending change of accommodation. economy as a key challenge to be addressed. This It has since come to light that the content of his e-mail could be achieved through focus on: integration of was incorrect. Mrs Rad was, on this occasion, given sustainability objectives in other policy areas; better less than 24 hours notice of the requirement to move implementation of existing legislation rather than new by the accommodation provider, Y-People. Y-People initiatives; and more involvement of society, incentivising has since carried out an internal investigation and the and motivating behaviour change. error occurred because the organisation provided The Council also adopted a third set of conclusions, inaccurate information to the UK Border Agency. on sustainable materials management and sustainable Y-People has implemented controls to prevent this production and consumption. reoccurring and also to provide increased assurance of The council took note of the presidency’s progress the accuracy of the information to the UK Border reports on the recast directive on waste electrical and Agency. electronic equipment (WEEE) and on the proposal for The regional senior managers of the UK Border a regulation regarding the possibility for member states Agency have also implemented measures to ensure to restrict or prohibit the cultivation of GMOs in their that no moves take place in Glasgow without their territory. The discussion on GMOs followed similar direct knowledge and approval and that no one will be lines to the earlier discussion at Environment Council asked to move at such short notice. in October 2010, with many member states raising concerns about the proposal. The UK has yet to finalise its position on this dossier, but emphasised the EU: Environment Council need to find a way through the current impasse and to Statement achieve legal clarity on the consistency of the proposal with WTO rules and the single market. Several member states focused on the need to consider clear criteria The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, upon which national decisions on cultivation could be Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs taken and welcomed the Commission’s proposal to (Lord Henley): My right honourable friend the Secretary discuss this further. of State has today made the following Statement. Ministers also exchanged views on the outcome of The Deputy Permanent Representative, Andy Lebrecht, the 16th session of the Conference of the Parties to represented the United Kingdom at the Environment the UN Convention on Climate Change at Cancun. Council on 20 December in Brussels. I was unable to They agreed that the outcome was positive and forward attend due to severe weather disrupting travel between looking, laying the foundation for further work and the United Kingdom and Belgium. confirming the strength of a multilateral process. The The council reached political agreement on the UK supported Germany in its call for a new strategy regulation concerning the placing on the market of building on Cancun, part of which had to be a move biocidal products. The UK welcomed the political beyond the EU’s 20 per cent target. agreement as a risk-based compromise which strikes the right balance between protecting health and environment from the biocides themselves but also Immigration: Fingerprinting from the harmful organisms that biocides are used to Statement control. The Belgian presidency presented the outcome of The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Neville- the third trilogue with the European Parliament on Jones): My honourable friend the Minister of State for the regulation setting emission performance standards Immigration (Damian Green) has today made the for new light commercial vehicles, as part of the EU’s following Written Ministerial Statement. WS 197 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 198

The Government have decided to opt in to the chief executive of HMRC, will be writing to the Public EURODAC regulation. The regulation meets the criteria Accounts Committee and Treasury Select Committee set out in the coalition agreement with regard to EU separately today. justice and home affairs measures. HMRC has been working hard to clear the long- The draft regulation will govern the operation of standing backlogs of unreconciled tax cases. the EURODAC fingerprint database, which collects Since September it has made rapid progress on the fingerprints of asylum seekers, and certain illegal working through the nearly 6 million adjustments entrants to the EU, in order to help member states to needed to ensure that the correct amount of tax is determine who is responsible under the Dublin regulation collected for the tax years 2008-09 and 2009-10. By the for dealing with an asylum claim. The Government end of last year in 90 per cent of cases where HMRC are committed to the Dublin system, of which had received all relevant information, customers had EURODAC is an essential part, as it helps tackle the received a refund notice or a calculation of overpayment problem of people abusing asylum systems across in respect of these years. Europe by making multiple claims in different EU In cases where an underpayment was due HMRC member states. has sought to take a flexible and sympathetic approach The Government will approach forthcoming legislation to collecting the tax that is due. In the minority of in the area of justice and home affairs on a case-by-case cases where the unexpected bill has been caused by basis, with a view to maximising our country’s security, HMRC’s failure to act promptly on the information protecting Britain’s civil liberties and enhancing our received, HMRC have considered claims to be written ability to control immigration. off under an existing concession (ESC A19). In addition: HMRC estimates that there are about 250,000 cases Patrick Finucane in respect of 2008-09 and 2009-10 where a taxable Statement state pension has been paid by DWP and the tax due on this pension should have been collected Lord Shutt of Greetland: My right honourable friend through a tax code adjustment. These pensioners the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Owen have not yet been issued with a notice of underpayment Paterson) has made the following Ministerial Statement. but would have a strong case for their underpayment to be written off in line with the concession. HMRC In my Written Statement of 11 November, I set out will not require these pensioners to claim the concession a period of two months during which I would receive individually, but will instead write off all the relevant representations as to whether it is in the public interest underpayments; that I should establish a public inquiry into the death HMRC is working to clear the backlog of cases of Patrick Finucane. As part of this process, my from earlier years. It will work all cases where a officials have had a constructive meeting with taxpayer is due a repayment for earlier years; representatives of the Finucane family and a further meeting will be arranged. In light of the fact that further underpayment notices will not be issued for useful discussions are under way between the family years earlier than 2007-08. For 2007-08, where and the Government, I have decided, with the agreement possible, any amounts due will be included in the of the family, to extend the period during which I will tax code for 2011-12 so that the money is collected receive representations by two months. When this over the course of the year through PAYE. HMRC further period has concluded it remains my intention will apply the same treatment to these cases as to to consider the family’s views carefully and in detail, those for 2008-09 and 2009-10. HMRC will not be along with any other relevant representations I receive, collecting sums for less than £300 for that year and before taking a decision as to whether or not it is in the will allow people to spread payments in cases of public interest to hold a public inquiry into the death hardship. Taking these concessions into account, of Patrick Finucane. HMRC expects to be in touch with around 450,000 people before the end of March to collect underpayments to the value of some £180 million; Taxation the annual exercise to set tax codes for the 2011-12 Statement tax year is about to begin. HMRC has reviewed the experience of last year when transitional issues with the new system led to some taxpayers The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord receiving incorrect tax code notifications, and has Sassoon): My honourable friend the Exchequer Secretary conducted extensive additional testing designed to to the Treasury (David Gauke) has today made the prevent a recurrence of these issues this year; and following Written Ministerial Statement. HMRC is continuing the process of modernising I am now able to give the House a report on PAYE for the 21st century through the introduction HMRC’s progress in resolving the issues on which I of real time information (RTI). This will help reduce made a Statement on 8 September 2010. Lesley Strathie, the need for reconciliations in the future. WA 425 Written Answers[11 JANUARY 2011] Written Answers WA 426 Written Answers Education Maintenance Allowance Question Tuesday 11 January 2011 Asked by Lord Laird To ask Her Majesty’s Government (a) what the cost has been of education maintenance allowance Armed Forces: Aircraft payments since their inception; (b) what was the Question cost of administering those payments in the last twelve months; (c) whether money is made available Asked by Lord Moonie as a Barnett consequential to pay the allowance in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland; and (d) if To ask Her Majesty’s Government when crew so, what is the annual cost and whether they plan to training will commence for the proposed Rivet withdraw the payment. [HL5376] Joint electronic warfare system, how many are expected to be trained in the first year; where this training The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for will take place; and what is its expected cost. Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): The question of cost [HL5570] and administrative spend is a matter for the Young People’s Learning Agency (YPLA), which operates The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry the education maintenance allowance for the Department of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): Crew training for for Education. Peter Lauener, the YPLA’s chief executive, the Rivet Joint electronic warfare system commenced will write to the noble Lord with the information on 9 January 2011. Seventy-eight RAF personnel are requested and a copy of his reply will be placed in expected to complete training in 2011, with a further Hansard and the House Libraries. 14 completing in early 2012. The training will take Support for learners in further education is devolved. place at the United States Offutt Air Force Base, It is therefore a matter for the devolved Administrations Nebraska. It is estimated that training these 92 personnel to decide their own policies within their overall block will cost some £2.7 million, including the cost of travel budgets. The Barnett formula applies to changes in the and subsistence for RAF personnel based temporarily total departmental provision, not to each individual in the USA. element separately.

Cabinet Office: Manual Egypt Question Question Asked by Lord Norton of Louth Asked by Baroness Cox To ask Her Majesty’s Government what was the To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they estimated cost of compiling and publishing the will make representations to the Government of draft Cabinet Manual. [HL5522] Egypt concerning reports that their state security forces shot live ammunition at the Coptic Christian Lord Taylor of Holbeach: Production of the draft demonstration on 24 November, killing at least two Cabinet Manual was co-ordinated by civil servants in young people. [HL5523] the Cabinet Office with input from civil servants from a range of other departments as part of their normal The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth duties. The small number of hard copies produced for Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): We have no plans key interested parties and the Libraries of both Houses to make representations about this particular incident. were printed in-house from within existing budgets. However, we remain concerned by reports of violence Accordingly, no estimate has been made of the cost of involving state security forces in Egypt. The state of producing and publishing the draft. emergency, which has existed since 1981 and was extended for a further two years in May, albeit in a more limited form, allows for persistent human rights Care Homes: Allowances violations and gives the police extensive powers. We Question continue to call on the Egyptian Government to honour Asked by Baroness Browning their commitment to end the state of emergency and introduce new anti-terrorism legislation that takes full To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many account of international human rights law and Egypt’s adults currently residing in care homes are in receipt obligations under international human rights treaties. of the mobility component of disabled living allowance. [HL5519] Employment: Work Programme The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Question for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud): Estimates of the Asked by Lord Taylor of Warwick number of recipients of the mobility component of disability living allowance in residential care homes are To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans not available as we do not separately identify DLA they have to reward companies who provide a person claimants who meet the full cost of their residential care. on benefits with work. [HL5547] WA 427 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 428

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department plans to look at the role of corporate social responsibility, for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud): The department’s in close co-operation with Business in the Community, primary focus is on helping individuals to get into as well as encouraging employee participation and work through the help provided by Jobcentre Plus and commitment to creating new mutual organisations to contracted providers. Wehave designed the work programme reform public services, of which our work on the to cater for a broad base of customers and providers, future of the post office network is key. and to offer flexible support that will meet the range of customers’ needs. Work programme providers will have the freedom to find the most effective ways of supporting Higher Education: Overseas Students customers into sustained employment, and this may include building relationships with local employers. Question The Government will not specify what the nature of Asked by Lord Laird these relationships should be. As providers will be rewarded for keeping customers To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to in sustained jobs, they will have an interest in ensuring the Written Answer by Baroness Neville-Jones on their customers’ performance and skills are appropriate 16 December (WA 214), what is the total number of over the longer term, which may make such customers certificates of acceptance for studies for non-European more attractive to potential employers. Union foreign students issued since that system commenced and agreed by the UK Border Agency, by public and private sector institutions, and by Government Departments: Non-Executive each private institution. [HL5490] Directors Question The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Neville- Jones): Confirmation of acceptance for studies (CAS) Asked by Lord Myners under tier 4 of the points-based system was introduced on 5 October 2009 and became fully operational in To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they February 2010. will publish appointment letters agreed with the non-executive directors to be appointed to departments The number of CAS allocations that has been of state. [HL5484] assigned by tier 4 sponsors between 5 October 2009 and 22 December 2010 is as follows:

Baroness Verma: It is not our normal practice to Privately Publicly publish letters of appointment. The terms of appointment, Type of institution funded funded Not stated including remuneration for non-executive board members, are consistent across departments, and these are in the Number assigned 173,580 243,710 21,505 public domain. The roles and responsibilities of the non-executive The figures provided exclude those for the 26 European board members are contained within Enhanced Departmental Union member state students. Boards: Protocol, which was published in December The UK Border Agency is unable to provide details 2010. The protocol is available on the Cabinet Office of CAS allocations and usage relating to each private website, and a copy will be placed in the Libraries of institution. It would require consent from each individual the House. sponsoring organisation to release information relating to their CAS allocation and ascertaining whether they are a private institution. This information could only Government: Big Society be obtained at disproportionate cost. Question These figures are based on management information and are not subject to the detailed checks that apply to Asked by Lord Boswell of Aynho national statistics. They are provisional and may be To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans subject to change. they have to involve both sides of industry in the work of the “Big Society”. [HL5558] Housing Benefit The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Question Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Asked by Lord Taylor of Warwick Wilcox): We believe that it is essential to the success of the big society that employers and their employees are To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment part of the work to create it. The Prime Minister has they have made of the effect of the proposal to limit already announced his Every Business Commits agenda housing benefit to £400 per week on the rates of setting out his pledge to create the right conditions evictions and homelessness. [HL5548] for economic growth and prosperity, in return for business commitment to support their communities, develop the skills of their employees and encourage The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department entrepreneurship and innovation. Edward Davey, our for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud): We cannot assess lead Minister on the big society, is already developing whether restricting the maximum local housing allowance WA 429 Written Answers[11 JANUARY 2011] Written Answers WA 430 rate to £400 will impact on thenumber of evictions and The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth homelessness as we cannot anticipate the behaviours Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): We maintain close of tenants or their landlords. However, to reduce the dialogue with the US on the Middle East peace process risk of households becoming homeless we have a substantial and supported their efforts to secure a renewal of the package of financial and practical support in place settlement freeze. As my right honourable friend the worth £190 million over the spending review period. Foreign Secretary has made clear, we believe that We are also giving existing customers up to nine months’ settlements are illegal and an obstacle to peace. We transitional protection so that they have time to look will continue to press for an end to all settlement for alternative accommodation if they need to do so. activity. Asked by Baroness Tonge Independent Public Services Pensions To ask Her Majesty’s Government what Commission representations they have made to the Government of Israel concerning the destruction of the “Freedom Question Road”in the village of Qarawat Bani Hassan by the Asked by Lord Laird Israeli authorities, the building of which was funded through contributions for Palestinian families to To ask Her Majesty’s Government who are the access their homes, schools, agricultural land, and members of the Independent Public Services Pensions health clinics. [HL5532] Commission, chaired by Lord Hutton of Furness; when Lord Hutton of Furness visited Belfast; with Lord Howell of Guildford: As my noble Friend is whom he met; and by what criteria those organisations aware, the UK has a strong record of lobbying hard or individuals were selected. [HL5552] on issues relating to house demolitions and settlement building and we regularly raise our concerns with the Israeli authorities. We are further concerned at a recent The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord increase in demolitions and evictions in east Jerusalem Sassoon): Lord Hutton of Furness is the sole member and Area C. We continue to monitor the situation of the Independent Public Service Pensions Commission. closely and will continue to raise the matter with the It is a matter for Lord Hutton who, when and by what Israeli Government as necessary. criteria he selects organisations or individuals to meet with in carrying out his independent review of public Asked by Baroness Tonge service pensions. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what representations they have made to the Government of Israel concerning the demolition of the village Iran of Abu Al Ajaj in the Jordan Valley, displacing Question 150 residents. [HL5533] Asked by Lord Kilclooney Lord Howell of Guildford: We are concerned that Israel’s minority Arab population, including Bedouin To ask Her Majesty’s Government what recent Arab minorities, are suffering institutional, legal and developments there have been in diplomatic relations societal inequality and discrimination. We remain with the Government of Iran. [HL5534] concerned that the Israeli Government’s Goldberg Commission’s 2008 recommendations, which included The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth a recommendation to recognise most of the remaining Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): We believe that unrecognised Bedouin villages, has not brought about good diplomatic relations are in the interests of both an end to the demolition of Bedouin houses and the UK and Iran, and that a successful outcome to the villages. nuclear talks would transform relations for the better. During the recent UN Human Rights Committee It is regrettable that some Iranian officials have reacted hearing in Geneva, along with UN colleagues we so strongly to recent British statements—worsening raised these concerns with the Government of Israel. relations help neither side. However, part of a mature Israel told the committee that it was in ongoing discussions relationship is being able to discuss differences openly, with Bedouin leaders about housing access and housing including concerns over Iran’s nuclear programme rights. We continue to support calls made by the EU and the human rights situation, and we will continue and the UN for a genuine and satisfactory solution to to take every opportunity to do so. these problems that the Bedouin communities face. We have made it clear that Israel should take the steps necessary to ensure that the rights of these minorities Israel are protected. Questions Asked by Baroness Tonge Israel and Palestine Questions To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment Asked by Baroness Tonge they have made of the United States Government’s offer of $3 billion worth of military hardware to To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment Israel in return for a 90-day settlement freeze in the they have made of recent reports of young Palestinian West Bank. [HL5528] children being arrested by the Israeli authorities WA 431 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 432

and made subject to illegal transfer, detention and Lord Howell of Guildford: Our embassy in Tel Aviv interrogation methods without family accompaniment; discusses concerns regarding the treatment of all and what representations they have made to the Palestinian prisoners with the Government of Israel Government of Israel on this matter. [HL5468] on a regular basis, underlining our view on the need for immediate action to ensure all cases are reviewed by a court in accordance with fair procedures, and that The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth rights, particularly to a fair trial and family visits, are Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): Our embassy in upheld. We have made clear our concerns regarding Tel Aviv discusses concerns regarding the treatment of administrative detention. all Palestinian prisoners with the Government of Israel on a regular basis, underlining our view on the need In this context, we also raise concerns with the for immediate action to ensure all cases are reviewed Israeli Government about the application of due process by a court in accordance with fair procedures, and that and the treatment of Palestinian detainees, where rights, particularly to a fair trial and family visits, are Palestinian children are involved. I would refer my upheld. We have made clear our concerns regarding noble friend to the Hansard record of the Westminster administrative detention. Hall adjournment debate (Official Report, Commons, 7 December 2010, cols. 23-44WH) for further detail. In this context, we also raise concerns with the We are aware of the recent reports documenting alleged Israeli Government about the application of due process abuse of Palestinian children by Israeli security forces and the treatment of Palestinian detainees, where and are currently looking into these allegations. Palestinian children are involved. I would refer my noble friend to the Hansard record of the Westminster Hall adjournment debate (Official Report, Commons, Lebanon: Anti-Tank Missiles 7 December 2010, cols. 23-44WH) for further detail. We are aware of the recent reports documenting alleged Question abuse of Palestinian children by Israeli security forces Asked by Lord Turnberg and are currently looking into these allegations. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their Asked by Baroness Tonge assessment of the sale by France to Lebanon of To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment 100 anti-tank missiles with a range of four kilometres. they have made of the treatment of Palestinian [HL5510] children accused of throwing stones and arrested in Silwan, and the 1,200 criminal cases which have The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry been opened against children accused of throwing of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): The proposed deal stones in East Jerusalem in 2010. [HL5530] is not a contravention of any embargo or sanction. France is bound by the same export regulations as the UK, the EU common position on defence exports, Lord Howell of Guildford: Our embassy in Tel Aviv and we would expect France, as with other exporting discusses concerns regarding the treatment of all nations, to have considered carefully the potential Palestinian prisoners with the Government of Israel end-use of such weapons. on a regular basis, underlining our view on the need for immediate action to ensure all cases are reviewed by a court in accordance with fair procedures, and that rights, particularly to a fair trial and family visits, are Morocco upheld. We have made clear our concerns regarding Question administrative detention. Asked by Baroness Tonge In this context, we also raise concerns with the Israeli Government about the application of due process To ask Her Majesty’s Government what and the treatment of Palestinian detainees, where representations they have made to the Government Palestinian children are involved. I would refer my of Morocco regarding the use of force by the noble friend to the Hansard record of the Westminster Moroccan authorities during the dismantling of Hall adjournment debate (Official Report, Commons, Gdaim Izyk protest camp and the restricted access 7 December 2010, cols. 23-44WH) for further detail. for parliamentarians, journalists, independent observers We are aware of the recent reports documenting alleged and humanitarian organisations to Western Sahara. abuse of Palestinian children by Israeli security forces [HL5529] and are currently looking into these allegations. Asked by Baroness Tonge The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): The loss of life at To ask Her Majesty’s Government what the Gdaim Izyk protest camp is profoundly regrettable. representations they have made to the Government Officials from our embassy in Rabat maintained close of Israel concerning the two most recent cases of contact with the Moroccan authorities following the children being shot whilst collecting building gravel dismantling of the camp. Officials from the Foreign in Gaza, bringing the total number of similar cases and Commonwealth Office also held meetings with documented by Defence for Children International officials from the Moroccan embassy in London to (DCI) since 26 March 2010 to 16. [HL5531] discuss the circumstances surrounding these events. WA 433 Written Answers[11 JANUARY 2011] Written Answers WA 434

An official from our embassy in Rabat visited the The UKBA guidance details the specific range of territory in December 2010 and met with a range of documents that are required to prove the right to work Moroccan officials, international bodies, United Nations of persons subject to immigration control, including agencies and local non-governmental organisations. non-EEA students. Since 31 March 2010, student We understand that there are currently no restrictions residence permits/visas have clearly indicated the on access to Western Sahara. restrictions on employment that apply to the individual’s leave in the UK. The guidance also clearly states that the provision of a national insurance number is not National Insurance sufficient in isolation as proof of right to work. Questions Asked by Lord Laird NHS Business Services Authority To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the Written Answer by Lord Freud on 16 December Question (WA 220), what forecast they have made of the cost Asked by Lord Hunt of Kings Heath of creating a field on central information technology systems to record and enumerate whether a national To ask Her Majesty’s Government what evidence insurance number has been allocated to someone they have that the proposed restructuring of the restricted to self-employment; and what is their NHS Business Services Authority will be more effective assessment of the value of collecting such data in and efficient than current arrangements. [HL5539] responding to employers’ enquiries. [HL5491] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Department of Health (Earl Howe): The recent review for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud): No forecast has of the department’s arm’s-length bodies commissioned been made as there is no DWP business requirement a commercial review of the authority. This review is for such a change to be introduced. under way and no decisions have yet been taken about Employers need to establish an individual’s right to the National Health Service Business Services Authority’s undertake employment by checking immigration status functions. Decisions taken following the review will be rather than against DWP national insurance number based on the effectiveness and value for money of data. Guidance for employers on how to comply with alternative solutions. the controls on the employment of migrant workers is provided by the UK Border Agency. The guidance details the specific range of documents that are required to prove the right to work of all persons subject to NHS: Counter Fraud and Security immigration control. The guidance also clearly states Management Service that the provision of a national insurance number is Questions not sufficient in isolation as proof of right to work. Asked by Lord Laird Asked by Lord Hunt of Kings Heath To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to To ask Her Majesty’s Government how much the Written Answer by Lord Freud on 16 December money has been saved for the National Health (WA 221), whether they will add details of any Service by the NHS Counter Fraud Service since its employment restrictions imposed on non-European inception. [HL5537] Economic Area students to their national insurance To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the number notification; and how employers can discover purpose of the restructuring of the NHS Counter and prove the right to work status of non-EEA Fraud and Security Management Service division students subject to immigration control. [HL5493] of the NHS Business Services Authority. [HL5538] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what provision Lord Freud: There are currently no plans to include will be made in the proposed new structure for the details of any employment restrictions imposed on NHS Counter Fraud and Security Management non-European Economic Area students to their national Service Division of the NHS Business Services insurance number notification. The national insurance Authority to ensure that general practitioner consortia number is a unique permanent reference number which will have effective counter-fraud services. [HL5540] allows for the collection of national insurance contributions in respect of that individual. It is not, in To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans isolation, proof of right to work, nor is it proof of they have to pilot the proposed changes to the NHS immigration status or conditions which can change Counter Fraud and Security Management Service over time. Division of the NHS Business Services Authority. Guidance for employers on how to comply with the [HL5541] controls on the employment of migrant workers is To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many provided by the UK Border Agency. This is because counter-fraud specialist posts will be lost as a result employers need to establish an individual’s right to of the proposed changes to the NHS Counter Fraud undertake employment by checking immigration status and Security Management Service Division of the rather than national insurance number documentation. NHS Business Services Authority. [HL5542] WA 435 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 436

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department and what representations they have made to those of Health (Earl Howe): Since 1999, the National Health diplomats in London about concerns over recent Service Counter Fraud Service has recovered over cross-border incidents on the Korean peninsula. £65 million. [HL5571] In line with the White Paper Liberating the NHS, from April 2011 NHS Protect will incorporate the The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth functions of the NHS Counter Fraud and Security Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): There are five diplomats Management Service that cannot be undertaken by NHS from North Korea based in London. The Foreign and bodies, either in isolation or regionally. A consultation Commonwealth Office employs approximately 10 staff exercise is under way with trade unions and staff on in Pyongyang. This includes UK-based civil servants the changes. The underlying principle is to ensure that, and locally engaged staff. For operational and security within the available budget, NHS Protect is able to reasons, we cannot provide a more detailed breakdown. respond to the changing needs of the NHS. Senior officials in the UK, and our ambassador to NHS Protect will deliver an intelligence-rich service Pyongyang, expressed to the North Korean authorities to assist the NHS to better address security risks, grave concern about the recent cross-border incidents, including fraud, at a local level. Provision will be made and urged restraint. to ensure that general practitioner consortia have appropriate access to effective anti-fraud services, following Palestine on from the work that the NHS Counter Fraud and Security Management Service currently undertake with Question primary care trusts. To support this, NHS Protect will Asked by Lord Turnberg provide guidance and assistance. The NHS Business Services Authority does not To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their plan to pilot the changes which are due to be in place response to the Palestinian Authority in its efforts from April 2011. to form an independent state before it reaches an The proposed changes will mean that the staffing agreement with Israel on a future two-state solution. complement for NHS Protect will be 165 posts, compared [HL5535] to the current complement of 209 for the NHS Counter Fraud and Security Management Service. The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): There is an urgent need for progress to secure a two-state solution, based NHS: Reform on 1967 borders, with Jerusalem as the future capital of two states and a fair settlement for refugees. We Question want to see progress through negotiations and have no Asked by Lord Stoddart of Swindon plans to recognise a Palestinian state ahead of an agreement between the Palestinians and Israelis. To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the Written Statement by Lord Sassoon 20 December However, we are strong supporters of Prime Minister (WS 146–8) concerning the Economic and Financial Fayyad’s efforts to build the institutions of state, Affairs Council, what role European Union directives including through UK funding of £113.45 million and regulators have had in recent NHS reforms. from 2008 to 2010; and recognise the achievements he [HL5509] has made to date. This important work moves the Palestinian Authority forward in meeting its road map commitments on security and institution building as The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department highlighted by my right honourable friend the Foreign of Health (Earl Howe): Whilst the Government agree Secretary in his Statement on 9 October. We call on with the report of the European Commission and the Israel to make progress on its road map commitments Economic Policy Committee that there is a need for in particular on settlements. reform to bring about more efficient use of public resources and to ensure the provision of high-quality healthcare, their findings have not driven our reforms. Pensions The Government have been clear from the start that Question change is needed in the National Health Service. The reforms set out in Equity and Excellence: Liberating Asked by Lord Laird the NHS in July 2010 are essential to ensure the To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many long-term sustainability of the NHS and to improve people possess public sector pension schemes in healthcare outcomes for patients. Northern Ireland; and what are the schemes’ names, respective employers’ contributions and subsidies. North Korea [HL5554] Question The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Asked by Lord Moonie Sassoon): In Northern Ireland, delivery of most public services is devolved. Where public sector employees in To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many Northern Ireland are employed by UK government North Korean diplomats are stationed in London departments, the relevant UK public service pension and how many British diplomats are in North Korea; scheme applies. In other cases, responsibility for pension WA 437 Written Answers[11 JANUARY 2011] Written Answers WA 438 scheme administration, including the collection of Visas contributions, payments to pensioners and financial reporting, rests with the Northern Ireland Executive Question and its agencies. Asked by Lord Laird To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to Schools: Contextual Value Added the Written Answer by Baroness Neville-Jones on 3 December (WA 506), how many Certificates of Question Sponsorship for intra-company transfer visas last Asked by Lord Hunt of Kings Heath year quoted an annual salary (excluding tax-free allowances) less than the minimum wage; how many To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many had a salary (excluding tax-free allowances) between schools previously shown to be outstanding in terms the minimum wage and £24,000; and how many of contextual value added will be judged as failing had a salary (excluding tax-free allowances) between under the new measure of how much value schools £24,000 and £40,000. [HL5378] add for all pupils. [HL5245] The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Neville- The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Jones): The information is not available in the precise Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): The department has format requested. The attached table provides information not yet developed a measure of how much value on the number of certificates of sponsorship (CoS) schools add for all pupils to replace the contextual used between 27 November 2008 and 31 March 2010. value added measure. Following the publication, in It is not possible to break down the figure to exclude spring 2011, of Professor Alison Wolf’s recommendations any tax free allowances. on how vocational qualifications might be reported in The UK Border Agency would not grant leave to performance tables, we will consider which indicators remain or leave to enter the UK to a tier 2 (intra-company of progress might be developed to demonstrate the transfer) migrant earning less than the minimum wage. value that schools add for all pupils. Number of certificates of sponsorship (CoS) under tier 2 (intra-company transfer) of the points-based system (PBS) used between 27 November 2008 and South Korea 31 March 2010 (1)

Question Salary band (£) Number of CoS issued (2)

Asked by Lord Moonie less than 12,333 85 (3) To ask Her Majesty’s Government what treaty 12,333-23,999 703 obligations in respect of defence and security matters 24,000-40,000 21,821 40,001 and over 23,055 the United Kingdom has to South Korea. [HL5572] Notes (1) The issue of a CoS does not mean that the migrant has come The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth to the UK to work. The migrant may have decided not to travel Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): A treaty formally or been refused a visa. to end the Korean war of 1950-53 has never been (2) All figures are derived from information supplied by signed. Although the UK does not have any binding sponsors. They are provisional and may be subject to change. bilateral agreements on defence and security matters The figures are not provided under the protocols governing the with South Korea, the UK frequently demonstrates its issue of national statistics. support for South Korea in the face of North Korean (3) Confirmation of salary is undertaken when a visa application provocations. is considered.

Turkey Young People’s Learning Agency Question Question Asked by Lord Laird Asked by Lord Moonie To ask Her Majesty’s Government what payments To ask Her Majesty’s Government what treaty have been made in the last three years to the Young obligations in respect of defence and security matters People’s Learning Agency; for what reason; and the United Kingdom has to Turkey, apart from whether the agency will continue. [HL5381] those implied by NATO membership. [HL5573] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): The Young People’s Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): There are no current Learning Agency for England began operation on treaty obligations in respect of defence and security 1 April 2010 following the dissolution of the Learning issues between the United Kingdom and Turkey, apart and Skills Council. Its principal functions are to fund from those implied by membership of the North Atlantic academies, to fund learning opportunities for 16 to Treaty Organisation. 18 year-olds (and for 16 to 24 year-olds with a learning WA 439 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 440 difficulty or disability) and to fund support for young Table: Young People’s Learning Agency (YPLA) grant funding learners. The agency’s grant for 2010-11 is £9.6 billion; 2010-11 All funding is provided by the Department for Education details are set out in the table below. Some items could unless otherwise indicated be subject to change; for example, further allocations Item Funding (£ million) might be necessary for the expanding academies Total learning opportunities 6,398 programme. Further Education for 16 to 24 year olds with 282 On 24 November 2010, the White Paper, The Importance a learning difficulty or disability of Teaching, set out the Government’s intention, subject Total learning opportunities for learners with 282 to legislation, to replace the Young People’s Learning learning difficulties or disabilities Agency, a non-departmental public body, with a new Education Maintenance Allowance 564 Education Funding Agency, which will be an executive Learner Support 98 agency within the Department for Education. Weanticipate Childcare support 5 that the new agency will begin operation in April 2012. Total support 667 Capital Programmes 231 Table: Young People’s Learning Agency (YPLA) grant funding 14-19 Reform 53 2010-11 All funding is provided by the Department for Education unless otherwise indicated YPLA Administration 49 2 Item Funding (£ million) Adult Learner Support Funds 37 Online Learner Panel 3 0.06 Academies 1,882 Total other 370.06 Total Academies 1,882 Overall total 9,599.06 Further Education for 16-18 year olds 3,964 1 Maintained School Sixth Forms 2,213 Provided by the Ministry of Justice. Sixth Form Academies 203 2 Provided by Business, Innovation and Skills. Education in Youth Custody 1 18 3 Provided by Business, Innovation and Skills. Tuesday 11 January 2011

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Col. No. Col. No. Correction to Commons Oral Question...... 195 Patrick Finucane...... 197 EU: Environment Council ...... 195 Immigration: Fingerprinting...... 196 Taxation...... 197

Tuesday 11 January 2011

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. Armed Forces: Aircraft ...... 425 Lebanon: Anti-Tank Missiles...... 432

Cabinet Office: Manual...... 425 Morocco ...... 432

Care Homes: Allowances ...... 425 National Insurance ...... 433

Education Maintenance Allowance ...... 426 NHS Business Services Authority ...... 434

Egypt ...... 426 NHS: Counter Fraud and Security Management Service. 434

Employment: Work Programme ...... 426 NHS: Reform...... 435

Government: Big Society ...... 427 North Korea ...... 435

Government Departments: Non-Executive Directors ...... 427 Palestine...... 436

Higher Education: Overseas Students...... 428 Pensions...... 436

Housing Benefit...... 428 Schools: Contextual Value Added...... 437

Independent Public Services Pensions Commission ...... 429 South Korea...... 437

Iran...... 429 Turkey...... 437

Israel...... 429 Visas ...... 438

Israel and Palestine ...... 430 Young People’s Learning Agency ...... 438 NUMERICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. [HL5245] ...... 437 [HL5509] ...... 435

[HL5376] ...... 426 [HL5510] ...... 432

[HL5378] ...... 438 [HL5519] ...... 425

[HL5381] ...... 438 [HL5522] ...... 425

[HL5468] ...... 431 [HL5523] ...... 426

[HL5484] ...... 427 [HL5528] ...... 429

[HL5490] ...... 428 [HL5529] ...... 432

[HL5491] ...... 433 [HL5530] ...... 431

[HL5493] ...... 433 [HL5531] ...... 431 Col. No. Col. No. [HL5532] ...... 430 [HL5542] ...... 434

[HL5533] ...... 430 [HL5547] ...... 426

[HL5534] ...... 429 [HL5548] ...... 428 [HL5552] ...... 429 [HL5535] ...... 436 [HL5554] ...... 436 [HL5537] ...... 434 [HL5558] ...... 427 [HL5538] ...... 434 [HL5570] ...... 425 [HL5539] ...... 434 [HL5571] ...... 436

[HL5540] ...... 434 [HL5572] ...... 437

[HL5541] ...... 434 [HL5573] ...... 437 Volume 723 Tuesday No. 91 11 January 2011

CONTENTS

Tuesday 11 January 2011 Introductions: Lord True, Baroness Jolly and Lord Risby ...... 1285 Questions Energy: Electricity ...... 1285 Air Passenger Duty ...... 1288 EU: Hungarian Presidency...... 1290 Health: Influenza...... 1293 Public Bodies Bill [HL] Committee (6th Day)...... 1295 Banking: Bonuses Statement ...... 1329 Public Bodies Bill [HL] Committee (6th Day) (continued)...... 1338 UK Border Agency: Visas and Passports Question for Short Debate...... 1359 Public Bodies Bill [HL] Committee (6th Day) (continued)...... 1372 Grand Committee Revised Draft Overarching National Policy Statement for Energy (EN-1) ...... GC 115 Revised Draft National Policy Statement for Fossil Fuel Electricity Generating Infrastructure (EN-2)...... GC 149 Revised Draft National Policy Statement for Renewable Energy Infrastructure (EN-3) ...... GC 149 Revised Draft National Policy Statement for Gas Supply Infrastructure and Gas and Oil Pipelines (EN-4)...... GC 150 Revised Draft National Policy Statement for Electricity Networks Infrastructure (EN-5) Debated...... GC 150 Written Statements...... WS 195 Written Answers...... WA 425