Sir MBE, 81, served as Liberal / Liberal Democrat MP for from 1972 (following a famous by-election triumph) until retiring in 1992. His larger- than-life personality – and stature (he once topped the scales at 29 stone, but is now considerably slimmer) – made him one of interview: the Commons’ most instantly recognisable figures, while his blunt, populist, Cyril Smith no-nonsense way of talking helped make him one of the Q: You joined the Young Liberals in they announced that the Liberal country’s most popular 1945 as a teenager. Why? candidate had forfeited his deposit, CS: I was working as a jun- and that was a tremendous blow to politicians. However, ior clerk at the income tax office us all at the time.1 Afterwards Reg he also possessed and there was a man there called telephoned me and said, ‘Cyril, if Frank Warren who was a life- you have any sense you’ll leave the considerable political long Liberal and had a tremen- Liberals and join the Labour Party dous influence on me, took me because it’s the only place you’re acumen, gave the to a couple of meetings and going to have a political future.’ I Parliamentary Liberal sowed the seeds of my Liberal- reluctantly took his advice. ism. What’s more, I always had Q: You spent a long time as a Party a distinctive a streak of independence and (mostly Labour) councillor in Roch- northern voice and, wanted to make my own mind dale (1952–75). What are you proud- up about things and arrive at my est of achieving during that time? during his time as own conclusions, and I felt the CS: Let’s be clear. I was a Chief Whip in 1975– Liberal Party offered more scope very active councillor, not just for my taking such a position. one to do a bit of yapping. I 77, had to deal with Lastly, there was also a historical spoke regularly and sought to the fallout from the streak of Liberalism in my fam- make my mark. One of the first ily and that had an influence, as things I did was to call for a pub- Thorpe affair.York did Rochdale’s Liberal tradition. lic inquiry into the Rochdale Membery visited him Q: You became the Liberal elec- police authority, a big thing for tion agent in Stockport South in a young councillor to do. But at his Rochdale home 1950. What do you remember about whatever I did during that time, to discuss the Liberal fighting that election? I sought first and foremost to put CS: The candidate was an the people of Rochdale first, and Party past and present, absolute gentleman in the real I like to think I succeeded. sense of the word. His name was Q: In 1966 you quit Labour and ‘Big Cyril’ was Reg Hewitt. The trouble was that when you were mayor, becoming first typically frank … time after time on election night an Independent Labour councillor

32 Journal of Liberal History 64 Autumn 2009 interview: cyril smith and then rejoining the Liberals. charismatic, energetic figure, would have been better off Why? and in the early days at least his without being shackled to the CS: We needed to make personality proved a great elec- SDP. And I think that the Lib- some financial savings, and we toral asset. eral Democrats need to preserve [Labour] voted to put up both Q: You went on to become the themselves as a party of inde- the rates and the council tenants’ party’s employment spokesman and pendence. We can’t be seen to rents. That seemed a fair com- Chief Whip in the 1970s. The latter be dependent on another party: promise. Then a secret meeting role in particular must have presented if you ask me, that’s the political took place at which a few Labour quite a challenge given the fallout kiss of death. councillors decided to only raise from the ‘Thorpe affair’? Q: However, couldn’t one argue the rates. It made a mockery of CS: There is no doubt that the that the Liberal Party has, to all the party’s supposed democratic affair had an adverse affect on intents and purposes, absorbed the procedures and that was the final the party, and I just did the best I SDP and become a more powerful straw as far as I was concerned. could to manage the situation. It force as a result? Q: You were welcomed back into was a great shame, because I had CS: Very possibly — but the Liberal political fold and went on a great regard for Jeremy and still we may still have emerged as a to fight the 1970 election. What do have a lot of respect for him, but much-strengthened force if we you recall about that election? there’s no doubt the affair itself had killed off the SDP at birth. CS: It was a tough election for was damaging to the party. Q: How do you rate the party nationally, but I man- Q: How do you look back on the as leader of the party in the 1970s aged to improve the party’s vote Lib–Lab Pact and how do you think and early 1980s and at the time of the locally, which I believe was a it affected the party’s fortunes in the Liberal–SDP Alliance? considerable achievement given 1979 general election? CS: We had our differences, the wider picture. CS: I always had my doubts not least over the Lib–Lab Pact Q: Two years later, in 1972, you about the pact, and, if anything, — which, as I’ve already said, in went on to win the seat at a famous I think it had an adverse affect my opinion didn’t do us any elec- by-election. What do you recall on the party. In fact, my expe- toral favours. Nor did we see eye about that by-election? rience is that pacts always have to eye over the alliance with the CS: I was pretty well known an adverse effect on us as a party, SDP. That said, the party found in Rochdale, and I’ve always be it at national or local author- itself in a difficult situation in loved campaigning, so I went ity level. I think we as a party 1979 and there is no doubt he out and just met as many peo- need to approach the signing put everything he could into that ple as I could, banging the drum of any future pacts with cau- year’s electoral campaign. for the Liberal Party and telling tion, although at the same time I Q: You retired as an MP in 1992 people why they should vote for think it’s probably inevitable. because of ill health. What are you me and not the other lot. A lot of Q: Back in the 1980s, you mem- proudest of during your parliamen- big-name Liberals made the trip orably said that you’d like to have tary career? north to support me, and Jer- seen the SDP strangled at birth. Do CS: Probably my time as emy Thorpe made several visits you stand by what you said or would Chief Whip [1975–77]. It was to the constituency. I predicted you retract that in hindsight? Cyril Smith a difficult time for the party, a right from the start that I would CS: I think I was right at the today (with Chris time dominated by having to win, and during the campaign time. I think the Liberal Party Davies MEP) deal with the fallout from the the appearance of more and more Liberal posters in windows just made me more confident as election day approached. And we won a handsome victory. Q: That by-election was the first in a string of Liberal by-election vic- tories in the 1970–74 Parliament. How important do you think the Rochdale result was in giving the party electoral momentum? CS: What do you expect me to say?! Naturally, a bighead like myself is happy to claim some credit for the other by- election victories too. But I think it should be remembered that was also a

Journal of Liberal History 64 Autumn 2009 33 interview: cyril smith

Jeremy Thorpe affair. I like I think the honest, have preferred a merger Q: Finally, what lessons can the to think I helped the party get to have taken place. Liberal Democrats draw today from though one of its stickiest peri- Liberal Party Q: Ironically, though, the Liberal the time when you were most politi- ods in relatively good shape. would have Democrats are now posing a greater cally active in the old Liberal Party? Q: You were succeeded as MP challenge to Labour in its ‘north- CS: I think the party has to in 1992 by , who held been better ern heartlands’, at least at a council remain active at the grassroots, Rochdale for the party, albeit with level, than ever before. Do you think and, just as importantly, has to a reduced majority. How do you feel off without you have played a part in the party’s remain the third most elector- about your successor and what fac- northern renaissance? ally powerful party in the land. tors lay behind her losing the seat in being shack- CS: Any bigheaded soul However, I admire the way it’s 1997? led to the would, of course, love to claim being led now, because Nick CS: I was agreeably surprised some of the credit, and I’m no Clegg and Vince Cable comprise we won it in 1992, to be per- SDP. And I different! And, yes, it’s heart- a very strong team. I think the fectly honest. For, while Liz was ening – and in a way it proves party’s in good hands. – is – a very likeable personal- think that we were right to keep our dis- ity, she’s not what I would call tance from Labour. What wor- York Membery is a contributing a flamboyant personality, nor the Liberal ries me is the possibility that editor to the Journal of Liberal would I say a political personal- Democrats we as a party, both in the north History.The Journal expresses ity. I think my ‘personal vote’ and nationwide, are as strong as its thanks to Virgin Trains (www. may have helped get her elected. need to we’re going to get … virgintrains.com; 08457 222 333) for That said, I’ll never forget her Q: How does it feel to be, so helping with the travel arrangements sitting in the front room of my preserve to speak, one of the party’s ‘elder for this interview. house after losing the seat five statesmen’? years later, crying her eyes out. themselves CS: I like to think – indeed 1 In fact Hewitt just saved his Q: Of course, recap- as a party of I believe – that I still have deposit, achieving 13.84 per cent of tured the seat for the Liberal Demo- an influence in the party. Of the vote (the threshold was at that crats in 2005, which you must have independ- course, I could be wrong! time 12.5 per cent). found heartening? CS: Now he’s a different cup ence. of tea entirely. He has a point of view and stands up for what he believes in. I might not always agree with him, but there are more times when I do than when I don’t. And I think he’s doing a pretty good job. Q: How do you rate Paddy Ash- reports down’s time as leader during the 1980s and 1990s? CS: I always regarded Paddy The strange birth of Liberal as a very likeable man before he became leader. Although after- Joint meeting of the History Group and the National wards I think he changed a bit as a person, and not altogether Liberal Club, 20 July 2009, NLC, with Professor Anthony for the better. Having said that, Howe, David Steel (Lord Steel of Aikwood) and Ros Scott being the leader of a political party isn’t easy, and overall I (Baroness Scott of Needham Market. Chair: William Wallace think he did a reasonable job. (Lord Wallace of Saltaire) Q: What are your thoughts on the ‘secret’ talks that Paddy Ash- Report by Graham Lippiatt down engaged in with both in the run-up to and after the 1997 general election? n 6 June 1859, at Wil- Derby and bring in a Liberal CS: I have no doubt at all lis’s Rooms in St James administration. that we – he – got too close to OStreet, Westminster, To commemorate the com- Tony Blair, and I think certain Radical, Peelite and Whig pact made at Willis’s Rooms people in the Labour Party, not Members of Parliament met to and the consequent formation least Tony Blair himself, led him formalise their parliamentary of the Liberal Party, the Lib- into that position … And would coalition to oust the Conser- eral Democrat History Group perhaps, if they were entirely vative government of Lord and the National Liberal Cub

34 Journal of Liberal History 64 Autumn 2009