Vol. 711 Thursday No. 92 18 June 2009

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDER OF BUSINESS

Death of a Member: Lord Dahrendorf Announcement Questions Kenya: British Army Asylum Seekers: Democratic Republic of Congo Health: Obesity EU: Alternative Investment Funds Business of the House Timing of Debates Five Statutory Instruments Motions to Refer to Grand Committee Olympic Games 2012 Debate Iraq Debate Climate Projections Statement Armed Forces, Army, Air Force and Naval Discipline Acts (Continuation) Order 2009 Armed Forces (Part 5 of the Armed Forces Act 2006) Regulations 2009 Armed Forces (Enlistment) Regulations 2009 Armed Forces (Court Martial) Rules 2009 Armed Forces (Civilian Courts Dealing with Service Offences) (Modification of the Criminal Justice Act 2003) Regulations 2009 Court Martial (Prosecution Appeals) Order 2009 Armed Forces (Powers of Stop and Search, Search, Seizure and Retention) Order 2009 Armed Forces Act 2006 (Consequential Amendments) Order 2009 Motions to Approve

Grand Committee Welfare Reform Bill Committee (4th Day)

Written Statements Written Answers For column numbers see back page

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© Parliamentary Copyright House of Lords 2009, this publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ 1173 Death of a Member: Lord Dahrendorf[18 JUNE 2009] Kenya: British Army 1174

understanding with the Kenyans in order to incorporate House of Lords all that we need to do to make sure that we are a positive contributor in that area and that we take into Thursday, 18 June 2009. account all the issues that have been mentioned. 11 am Earl Attlee: My Lords, does the Minister agree that Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Bradford. many of the best wildlife areas in the United Kingdom are MoD training areas? Death of a Member: Lord Dahrendorf Announcement Baroness Taylor of Bolton: Yes, my Lords. That is a matter of fact and we are very conscious of our 11.06 am obligations there as well. The Lord Speaker (Baroness Hayman): My Lords, it is with deep regret that I have to inform the House of Lord St John of Bletso: My Lords, I declare an the death yesterday of Lord Dahrendorf. On behalf of interest as a trustee of Tusk Trust, a wildlife conservation the whole House, I extend our sympathy to the noble charity that does a lot of work in Kenya. While I agree Lord’s family and friends. that the British Army could do a lot more to improve its communications with the local community as to its operations in northern Kenya, is the Minister aware Kenya: British Army that it has contributed enormously to the infrastructure Question there through the improvement of airstrips and roads to several of the community conservation initiatives in 11.07 am the region? Next week it will be providing a huge Asked By Lord Clement-Jones amount of support for the Lewa marathon, which is one of the largest events in that region raising money To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the for wildlife conservation projects. British Army in the Laikipia region of Kenya is developing a strategy to minimise the impact of its activities on wildlife, tourism and the local economy. Baroness Taylor of Bolton: My Lords, I am pleased to have confirmation of the positive contribution that our Armed Forces can make and are making in that The Minister for International Defence and Security area. We provide a great deal of local employment, we (Baroness Taylor of Bolton): My Lords, the Army has have medical exercises that improve immunisation in measures in place to minimise the impact of its activities the area and we carry out many engineering works on wildlife, tourism and the local economy in Laikipia. such as those that have just been mentioned. Overall, This is standard practice wherever British forces undertake this positive contribution means that there is a great overseas military training. deal of synergy between our needs and those of the local area. Lord Clement-Jones: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. Of course, we are all keen to ensure that the Army has good training opportunities in the countries Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, Exercise Grand in which it trains and that its reputation is highly Prix has been crucial in training battle groups in an positive. However, the Army has recently greatly extended environment similar to those in Iraq and Afghanistan. what it calls its Grand Prix training activities in Laikipia, Now that we have pulled out of Iraq, will the Minister which is an important centre for wildlife and biodiversity confirm that we will carry on training in this area? and an important tourism destination. Should not the Army be doing more, through consultation and local partnerships with bodies such as the Laikipia Wildlife Baroness Taylor of Bolton: My Lords, training in Forum, to create a strategy to ensure that wildlife and this area is critical to many of the challenges that we tourism sustainability is pursued through stewardship might face in the world in future and we are very schemes and the like? conscious of the need to maintain training. As I mentioned, we are negotiating adjustments to the memorandum of understanding with the Kenyans to Baroness Taylor of Bolton: My Lords, I welcome reflect the increased training that we are doing and the noble Lord’s acknowledgement of the importance intend to continue in the near future. of this training to us and to the Kenyans who also participate in that area. It is right that we have recently extended the amount of training in that area. We take Lord Steel of Aikwood: My Lords, I welcome what very seriously our obligations to the local community the Minister has said about the new MoU with the and local needs in terms of wildlife conservation and Government of Kenya. Does she recognise that the tourism, which is important there. We have individual Laikipia area has the largest collection of diverse agreements with ranch owners, we are members of the wildlife in Kenya outside the Masai Mara? That is why Laikipia Wildlife Forum and we try to liaise with local it is so crucial. In the renegotiation of the MoU, will people on these issues. At present we are negotiating the Ministry of Defence pay particular attention to an extension and a change to our memorandum of access to water supplies in that area for the wildlife? 1175 Kenya: British Army[LORDS] Asylum Seekers: DRC 1176

Baroness Taylor of Bolton: My Lords, I have been work with asylum seekers all over the country. Does he briefed on what we are doing about water supplies. We agree that the Home Office can continue to say what are making a positive contribution by drawing water he has just reported it saying only because of its from rivers and having purification facilities there. consistent refusal to take any steps for itself to discover This is an extremely important area for wildlife and what actually happens to those whom it hands over to conservation. We have been exercising in Laikipia for Congolese authorities as marked people at N’Djili many years now and it is interesting that, while wildlife Airport in Kinshasa? Will he agree to meet soon with generally in Kenya is under great pressure, the wildlife me and no more than two or three others so that he population in Laikipia is increasing. That shows that can hear some of that evidence at first hand—evidence there is good co-ordination, which we must build on. to which his department and a succession of asylum and immigration tribunals have shut their ears? Lord McNally: My Lords, following the question asked by the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, about the quality Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, the first thing to of the land held for training purposes in the UK, will say is that I and members of the UK Border Agency the Minister assure us that the Ministry of Defence is would always be willing to meet the right reverend not hoarding more land of such natural beauty than is Prelate the Bishop of Winchester and others to discuss necessary for training purposes? these issues and get more information on them. The Country of Origin Information Group draws on all Baroness Taylor of Bolton: My Lords, I am sure sources— Foreign Office, NGOs, in-country sources, that we are not holding more land than is absolutely anyone who has reports—to make its decisions. I was necessary. Training is important and we have to be aware, for example, of the claims made in the Guardian able to do it in a range of circumstances. Our training but we have looked into those and we have found no needs are clear. We have a good training programme substance in them. Our people in country have looked and we are conscious of our obligations to everyone. and found no substance. On 3 December 2008 the Court of Appeal upheld a ruling about a previous Lord Clement-Jones: My Lords, I thank the Minister claim that someone had been ill treated there and that for her replies to the various questions. Will she confirm failed asylum seekers were at risk. It just could not the date on which the discussions on the new MoU find a case for that and absolutely supported the started? previous court judgment.

Baroness Taylor of Bolton: My Lords, we had Baroness Northover: My Lords, is the noble Lord representatives in Kenya earlier this year and we are aware of reports that those who have sought refuge in hoping to conclude those discussions this year. the British embassy, as they seemingly had to do to report on further abuse, have in fact been arrested by the authorities in the DRC? The Government seemed Asylum Seekers: Democratic Republic of unaware of publicly known information about abuse Congo of judges, as is shown by some of their Written Answers, Question so how confident can we be, following on from the right reverend Prelate’s question, that the Government 11.13 am are properly monitoring this situation, or are they in fact simply closing their eyes and hoping? Asked By The Lord Bishop of Winchester To ask Her Majesty’s Government why they have Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, I can assure the concluded that asylum seekers returned to the House that we are not closing our eyes and hoping. As Democratic Republic of Congo will be safe from I say, we actually have a group—the Country of Origin harm. Information Group—that specifically looks at these issues and it draws on information from everybody. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Not only that, the chief inspector has set up an Office (Lord West of Spithead): My Lords, failed independent panel of experts, formerly the Advisory asylum seekers are returned to the Democratic Republic Panel on Country Information, and they are reviewing of Congo only when we and the independent courts this, and indeed the COI service is currently revising are satisfied that it is safe to do so, taking full account our DRC code. This was last published in January of the circumstances of the individual applicant. The 2009, so we are constantly updating it, and that will be Court of Appeal has upheld the Asylum and Immigration issued very shortly following these versions. These are Tribunal’s finding, based on all the evidence, that there allegations and we have tried to investigate them all. is no general risk to failed asylum seekers returned to When the courts have looked at this they have supported the DRC. what we have discovered, which is that it does not mean that we cannot send people back to that country. The Lord Bishop of Winchester: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer, but there will be many in Lord Elton: My Lords, in his initial Answer the your Lordships’ House who find it bizarrely inadequate. Minister said that no one was sent back until the I sympathise with the Minister for having to stick so Government and independent courts were satisfied closely to his brief and to close his mind to the large that there was no general risk to returning failed body of evidence that is available among those who asylum seekers. Can the noble Lord assure us that the 1177 Asylum Seekers: DRC[18 JUNE 2009] Health: Obesity 1178 individual conditions of a failed asylum seeker are Once the case officer assesses that it is safe to return a also taken into account because there are very differing person then we move down that route. Ideally we let receptions accorded to people according, for instance, them do so voluntarily. We give them a support package to their religious or political alignment? of money to help them when they are back in their country to get set up and go. But if they will not go Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, the noble Lord voluntarily and do not need asylum—many do not asks a very pertinent question. I can assure the House and are here as economic migrants—we believe that it that our current guidance is very much done on an is absolutely right that they should be returned to their individual basis, and each person, each asylum seeker, country. Millions of people around the world would has an individual case manager who looks at it on an love to live in this great country of ours and we cannot individual basis. So, for example, although we will not just open the door and let them flood in. take a blanket approach that we cannot return anyone to a particular country, once it has been accepted that Lord Dholakia: My Lords, is there a memorandum is all right to do so, we might well have an individual of understanding between our country and the DRC who for various reasons we will not send back. That to ensure that no harm comes to these individuals? will certainly be done. We do not accept that we can The Minister’s reply was not very convincing because make a presumption about every asylum seeker of a he did not say whether there is a precise monitoring particular nationality who presents himself, unless system in place to see what happens to them. There are there is something that has made us accept that—for in-country reports, but how often are they updated? example, at the moment we do not return to central We should also bear in mind that the latest report and southern Iraq. We just do not accept that. We from Amnesty International has barely had a look-in look at a case on an individual basis and we will send at the Home Office. them back if we feel they are not real asylum seekers. Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, I had hoped that Lord Hylton: My Lords, does the Minister agree I dealt with that in my answer on COI. The latest one that this situation is nothing new? Surely it has been was in January 2009. It is now being updated and will going on for many years because successive Governments shortly be coming out. We do not send teams to of the Democratic Republic of Congo have not had monitor. However, when we add everything together full control of their territory. Warlords have been very with our sources in-country—whether from the Foreign strong in certain places. Remnants of other armies Office, NGOs, agencies, whoever it might be—if we from other states have come into the country and there feel there is a risk, we will not return the person. That is a great deal of chaos. is just not what we do.

Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, I think that all Health: Obesity noble Lords will agree that it is a very unfortunate nation, as it has been through various guises since the Question mid-1960s. That is just very unfortunate. Although fighting is going on in the east of the country, for 11.22 am example, we return people to Kinshasa, which is Asked By Lord Berkeley 1,000 miles away from the particularly violent bit at the moment. That is similar to returning someone to To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps London, say, when the fighting is going on in Morocco. they are taking to reduce levels of obesity by That gives a flavour of the distances involved. Yes, encouraging increased physical activity. there have been real difficulties. As I say, however, these things are looked at and monitored all the time. Baroness Thornton: My Lords, we all know that We would not send people back if we felt that they increased physical activity is necessary to help to enable were at risk and we had evidence of that, because that people to achieve and maintain a healthy weight. The is not what we do. Government recognise that we have a role, as part of our strategy to tackle obesity, to support individuals Baroness Hanham: My Lords, is it not right to say and families. Our policies are focused on helping people that each person who is returned requires papers, to make healthier choices and to create an environment passports, visas and other documents in order to that promotes healthy weight. We have made additional return to their country? What arrangements are made funding available to support a range of physical activity to ensure that the documents are secured? Presumably opportunities and we have launched Change4Life. we cannot just return people if they do not have the proper authority Lord Berkeley: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for that comprehensive Answer and for the Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, I missed the first promises that she has given to the House. However, is part of the question but I think it was to do with the she aware that every year about 30,000 people die from need for proper documentation. That is a real issue obesity and that there is a link between exercise and because we often have difficulty trying to pin down obesity, as the experience in Denmark and the Netherlands exactly which country a person comes from. It does shows? People in the Netherlands cycle 12 times further delay the process but generally we manage to achieve than people in the UK and the obesity level in the it—we get the paperwork and documentation in place. Netherlands and in Denmark is two and a half times 1179 Health: Obesity[LORDS] Health: Obesity 1180

[LORD BERKELEY] Lord Addington: My Lords, having assumed that we lower than ours. Can my noble friend tell the House a are not going to restrict ourselves to a totally sedentary little more about what she is doing to encourage her lifestyle, will the Minister give us some guidance on departmental staff to cycle more and walk more, and what the Government will do about making casual will she encourage other departments, particularly the and enjoyable exercise more readily available to those Department for Transport, to provide facilities for who, for instance, live in inner cities and want pleasant cycling? parks to go to? What drivers are being taken from within government to make sure that casual exercise is Baroness Thornton: My Lords, a great deal of activity readily available to the ordinary person without their is going on around cycling. I pay tribute to my noble having to put their hand in their wallet? friend for being, as it were, the life Lord for cycling in your Lordships’ House and encouraging cycling in Baroness Thornton: My Lords, the noble Lord makes general and for parliamentarians as well. We are already an important point. That is why this is a cross-government implementing as part of our obesity strategy a number exercise. We are working with DCLG, for example, on of initiatives to encourage NHS staff, for example, to issues around parks and leisure facilities. We are also recognise the benefits of cycling. We are working right working with other government departments to make now with our trusts to plan a major promotion of sure that the planning system recognises the need for cycling. We are investing £140 million in a three-year people to be able to walk on pleasant roads and programme to increase cycling, which is being delivered streets. This is a very long-term programme. Our through Cycling England. The investment will improve ambition is to be the first major nation to reverse the cycling infrastructure through dedicated cycle lanes, rising tide of obesity. That is a long-term aim and one increase bike parking and promote the benefits of for which we all have a personal responsibility. cycling, although we cannot do anything about the fact that there are more hills in the UK than in the Netherlands. It will also promote cycle training. There The Earl of Listowel: My Lords, on the subject of will be 146,000 children trained to use bikes safely and cycle training for children, will the Minister say what we aim to have 500,000 children trained to use bikes progress has been made in encouraging children to safely by 2012. wear helmets, given that even quite small head injuries to children can be damaging to their lives? Lord McColl of Dulwich: My Lords, does the Minister recognise that the science is quite straightforward on Baroness Thornton: My Lords, the noble Lord is this subject? Exercise is important for the cardiovascular absolutely right. I do not know what specific progress system and in controlling cholesterol and the redistribution has been made and will write to him. My understanding of fat, but the essential thing with weight reduction is is that, in the training provided through schools, children eating less. Is she aware that we have in the Chamber a will not be trained unless they are wearing helmets. splendid visual aid in the form of the noble Lord, Lord Soulsby of Swaffham Prior? He decided to take off two stone in weight and did so by doing something The Lord Bishop of Chelmsford: My Lords, will the that did not cost anything—he simply ate less. We are Minister accept that there are deeper questions behind what we eat. the important ones of diet and exercise with regard to this matter concerning people’s sense of self-worth? Baroness Thornton: My Lords, the noble Lord is These may be about social equality and the quality of exactly right and he presents a challenge to the rest of community life. People are also what they believe. us. We know that physical activity is a key driver in dealing with obesity, but we also know that people Baroness Thornton: My Lords, the right reverend need to eat less. The point that I made in my opening Prelate points to a very important matter. We have remarks is that we know that these are personal choices seen television programmes such as the Jamie Oliver that people have to make and that the role of government programme in Rotherham, where it was clear that a lot is to encourage them to do that. I missed my walk this of barriers to healthy eating and exercise were to do morning because I was reading my brief; I will have to with people’s self-image and managing their income. catch up on it later. This is a societal problem; the right reverend Prelate is right. Lord Peston: My Lords, is my noble friend aware of another adage, “I get my exercise by attending the funerals of my friends who engage in large-scale exercise”? Lord Clark of Windermere: My Lords, is my noble friend aware of the embryonic NHS forest and the aim Baroness Thornton: My Lords, I am very sad for my to plant 1.3 million trees, one for each employee in the noble friend. NHS, to bring greenery into the heart of the patient and to provide opportunities for exercise to combat Lord Addington: My Lords— obesity? I declare an interest in one of the partners, the Forestry Commission. Lord Clark of Windermere: My Lords— Baroness Thornton: My Lords, my noble friend The Minister of State, Department of Energy and points to an absolutely superb scheme and a good Climate Change (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): My example of the way in which we need to work across Lords, it is the turn of the Lib Dems. government and in imaginative ways. 1181 Health: Obesity[18 JUNE 2009] EU: Alternative Investment Funds 1182

Baroness Gardner of Parkes: My Lords— important issues on the European Council agenda? In particular, does he welcome the very positive remarks Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, we are now made by the Irish Europe Minister, Dick Roche, on in the 24th minute. the radio this morning looking forward to a successful outcome of the negotiations concerning the Lisbon treaty, thus enabling it to be ratified in all member EU: Alternative Investment Funds states and to come into force before the Barroso Question Commission goes out of office, which will be of major benefit to all the peoples of Europe? 11.30 am Lord Myners: My Lords, I regret that I did not hear Asked By Viscount Trenchard the radio interview. I was taking note of the preceding question—I was walking to work while the interview To ask Her Majesty’s Government what position was being broadcast. However, I take note of my they will take at the meeting of the European noble friend’s comments and the encouraging sentiments Council on 18 and 19 June on the draft Alternative that he expresses. Investment Fund Managers Directive. Lord Pearson of Rannoch: My Lords, has the Minister The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury read the new book by Marta Andreasen, the former (Lord Myners): My Lords, the Government support chief accountant of the European Union, which reveals the principle of a harmonised regime for alternative that accrual accounting and double-entry book-keeping investment products, to help to develop the single remain strangers in that land? Do the Government not market and to provide a framework for dealing with agree that the British people will become even more potential systemic risks on a cross-border basis. The angry with their political class if they learn that even a current proposals contain flaws. We will continue to part of our financial industries has been taken over by work constructively with our partners in the EU to the Eurocrats? secure improvements. Lord Myners: My Lords, the noble Lord’s views on Viscount Trenchard: My Lords, I thank the Minister these matters are well known. We are seeking, as we for his reply.However, especially given his great experience already have with other directives, to strike the right in this sector, he may be a little complacent about the balance between the benefits to UK investors and the threat to London’s competitiveness which will result companies in which these funds invest of enhanced from a transfer of regulatory powers to Brussels. In regulation and supervision while not in any way conflicting particular, can he confirm that the Government would with the concept of national responsibility for supervision. be able to prevent the enactment of some of the more Indeed, the Prime Minister will make that point forcefully protectionist features of this ill drafted directive, such at the European Council meetings in Brussels today as those prohibiting delegation of portfolio management and tomorrow. outside the European Union and requiring private equity funds and investment trusts to appoint UCITS-style Lord Lawson of Blaby: My Lords, perhaps we might depositories, which is wholly unnecessary and alien to revert to the Question on the Order Paper, eccentric our British way of doing things? though that appears. Is it not the case that the Minister can be a great deal more robust than he has been so far in these exchanges? Not only is the context for this Lord Myners: My Lords, the draft directive was particular industry global, not European—it is global produced without the customary consultation. The co-operation which is required—but it is an industry equivalent UCITS directive, which applies to a smaller where, unusually, the United Kingdom is not merely industry, had three rounds of consultation before it larger than any other; in this particular sector, it is was published. As a result of the pace at which the larger than all the others put together. Therefore, it draft directive has been produced there are, as I said, would be wholly wrong for us to agree to any European flaws. There are misunderstandings about the role of directive on this matter that we are not satisfied is depositories and the calculation of leverage. Some 100 per cent right. provisions appear to conflict with the concept of subsidiarity. I am confident that we will be able to help Lord Myners: My Lords, I would not wish noble improve the directive. To that end I am meeting people Lords to believe that I am not being robust on these in the Commission and with other countries in the matters. I recognise the importance of the UK as a EU, including Sweden this weekend ahead of it taking centre for hedge fund management; over 80 per cent of up the presidency. We are also working very actively hedge funds in Europe are managed from the UK. We with the industry. We have had meetings with more are also the regional centre for private equity management, than 100 managers of alternative investment funds and I am working to make sure that the views of the and private equity to make sure that we understand industry are well understood. I believe that our knowledge their views and we are working with them to assemble and awareness of the issues and our capacity to provide arguments. detailed understanding to address some of the flaws that lie in the directive will lead to a positive outcome. Lord Tomlinson: My Lords, important as this draft I can best do that through constructive engagement alternative investment fund managers directive is, does with our colleagues in Europe, rather than being my noble friend recognise that there are other extremely unnecessarily confrontational. 1183 EU: Alternative Investment Funds[LORDS] Olympic Games 2012 1184

Lord Newby: My Lords, there appears to be growing Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 confusion about the differences of view between the (Regulated Activities) (Amendment) Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Governor of the Bank of England on banking regulation. The governor Order 2009 said yesterday, in his Mansion House speech, “If some banks are … too big to fail, then … they are too big”. European Organization for Astronomical Does the Chancellor agree? Research in the Southern Hemisphere Lord Myners: My Lords, the issue of the banking (Immunities and Privileges) Order 2009 community’s size in respect of the domestic economy, Motions to Refer to Grand Committee and then the size of individual banks, is one to which we are giving considerable attention. We shall be producing 11.38 am a White Paper on the future of financial markets in Moved By Baroness Royall of Blaisdon early July, which will address that issue. In the Chancellor of the Exchequer’s Mansion House speech last night, That the draft orders be referred to a Grand however—which I thought was, truly, an exceptionally Committee. good speech by the Chancellor on the steps that he has taken to protect our economy—he set out his own Motions agreed. broad views, which are that the critical factors to protect us against bank failure are good governance, good risk control, appropriate regulation and constant Olympic Games 2012 supervision. In that context, I am sure that diversity in Debate the scale of our banks can still be a source of strength for our economy. 11.39 am Moved By Lord Coe Arrangement of Business Announcement To call attention to the 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Games in London; and to move for 11.38 am papers. Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, with the leave Lord Coe: My Lords, I am delighted to have secured of the House, my noble friend Lord Davies of Oldham the opportunity to debate the progress being made will repeat the Statement on UK climate projections towards the London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic immediately after the debate in the name of the noble Games. I am grateful that so many Members of your Lord, Lord Fowler. Lordships’ House are contributing—a sign of the importance that this House places on the Games and Business of the House sport. I look forward to benefiting from noble Lords’ Timing of Debates rich and diverse experience. First, I declare an interest as chair of the London Organising Committee of the 11.38 am Olympic and Paralympic Games or LOCOG, as we are known. Moved By Baroness Royall of Blaisdon January of this year saw us pass the halfway point That the debate on the motion in the name of from winning the bid to the Olympic opening ceremony. Lord Coe set down for today shall be limited to Next month, on 27 July, the nation will mark three three hours and that in the name of Lord Fowler to years to go. Now, more than ever, we are under the two and a half hours. microscope. Since being awarded the right to host the Games, we have made solid progress. I place on record Motion agreed. my thanks to the efforts of the Olympic Delivery Authority and the London Development Agency. The Games are the biggest and most complex sporting Scottish Parliamentary Pensions Act 2009 event in the world to stage, and we are precisely where (Consequential Modifications) Order 2009 we need to be at this point. In May, when the International Olympic Committee’s Co-ordination Commission visited us, it acknowledged Dunfermline Building Society that every one of our milestones has been met. So let Compensation Scheme, Resolution Fund me take noble Lords on a short romp across that and Third Party Compensation Order 2009 landscape. We are a Games with sport and athletes at their heart. We are on track to deliver a compact Games with swift and safe transport and we are building Amendments to Law (Resolution of new permanent structures only where there is a long-term Dunfermline Building Society) (No. 2) and sustainable legacy. All our venues in the Olympic park are on, or even ahead of, schedule and being Order 2009 delivered within the public sector budget set by the Government three years ago. 1185 Olympic Games 2012[18 JUNE 2009] Olympic Games 2012 1186

The task of cleaning and clearing the Olympic park London, as well as the London boroughs, which are site will be complete by July. The construction of the working with us to provide the services and support Olympic stadium began three months ahead of schedule systems required to keep the city running for residents last May and it is already a defining feature on the east and visitors during the Games. This level of practical London skyline as the first sections of its roof are put partnership is extraordinary and has been achieved in in place. The roof of the aquatics centre is taking large part through the continuing cross-party political shape and the foundations of the velodrome are near support for the Games. In another place we are indebted completion. to Hugh Robertson and Don Foster, and in your Last week, I was honoured to join Her Majesty the Lordships’ House to the noble Lords, Lord Davies of Queen and His Royal Highness the Duke of Edinburgh Oldham, Lord Clement-Jones and Lord Addington, at the official opening of our completed sailing venue and my noble friends Lord Glentoran and Lord Luke. at Weymouth and Portland. In the organising committee Indeed, many noble Lords are working at the coal we have confirmed almost all our venues and have face of London 2012, bringing their expertise to shape already recruited all our sport competition managers, and deliver the Games. This House can, in particular, who are working closely with the international federations take credit for raising the profile of sport on the to ensure that the sports facilities and planning remain political agenda. on track. The extraordinary surge of support for our efforts, following the herculean efforts of British Olympic and The other major project within the Olympic park is Paralympic athletes in Beijing, demonstrates that the the athletes’ village where, again, work is on schedule, success of the Games will be judged as much on Team thanks to the judicious use of the contingency provided GB and Paralympics Team GB’s performance as our by the Prime Minister, then Chancellor in 2006. LOCOG’s ability to stage the Games. My noble friend Lord £2 billion operating budget for staging the Games Moynihan, chairman of the British Olympic Association, remains unchanged and is privately funded, as I never and the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell of grow tired of reminding your Lordships’ House. Nearly Loughborough, chair of UK Sport, are spearheading a third of this figure comes from domestic business the preparation and delivery of those teams. With sponsorship. To date, we have raised around half a little more than three years to go, we all need to focus billion pounds, a figure unsurpassed by any previous now on what we can do to deliver medal success for organising committee. We announced our 20th business them in 2012. Alongside them, the noble Baroness, partner earlier this week and our commercial teams Lady Ford, is concentrating on ensuring the sporting are still engaged in a lively and vibrant marketplace. and regeneration legacy of the Olympic park. While Our decision to sign up our domestic partners early there are too many in your Lordships’ House to thank was important, as this provides our independence as by name today, the speakers list bears eloquent witness well as the clarity and certainty of purpose as we move to their support. There has been a step change in from a planning organisation to one that focuses on public attitude since the Beijing Games last year. The delivery. It also helps that these partners make the organising committee is focused on staging the best most of their sponsorship. Good examples of this are Games that it can, so that people will be engaged, Lloyds TSB’s Local Heroes, Adidas adiZone outside involved and inspired by them. Its primary job is to gyms, and EDF’s Team Green Britain, which noble ensure that the Games produce remarkable sporting Lords may have heard about this week. achievements and experiences on the field of play to As I have said, we are moving swiftly from life as a inspire young people and demonstrate that sport matters planning organisation to one that focuses on the delivery and is for them. of an enormous range of services needed to stage the We are also using the power of the Games to create Games. Let me give noble Lords an insight into the other ways for the country to be involved and inspired. scale of these operations. They include: athlete services, The first two major projects for the Cultural Olympiad accommodation, catering and transport for 10,500 are well under way, with artists taking the lead in a Olympians, 4,000 Paralympians and 15,000 officials project to commission 12 new pieces of art by 2012. and coaches; venue operations such as security and “Stories of the World” will bring together 59 leading waste removal at 40 venues; spectator services and musicians and galleries. Nearly 5,000 schools and ticketing for 9 million people who will come to watch colleges are involved in the London 2012 education the Games; press and broadcast operations, ranging programme, Get Set, and 56,000 young people are from results services to internet platforms for the competing in the London 2012 Make Your Mark 20,000 accredited journalists; workforce services to Challenge enterprise competition. We are working recruit, train and clothe thousands of staff and up to with graduates to support Teach First. Hundreds of 70,000 volunteers; a Cultural Olympiad and education projects have already signed up to take part in the programme enabling thousands of community London 2012 open weekend, celebrating three years to organisations, schools and local authority colleges to go on 27 July. be inspired by and engaged in the Games; and our Every month I visit projects in one of the nations or creative teams are working hard to choreograph English regions, and I am astounded by the extraordinary ceremonies that reflect the best of the United Kingdom. creativity and enthusiasm that communities up and Of course, no organising committee alone can deliver down the country are now witnessing—a direct result a Games. Partnership is crucial. I thank Tessa Jowell, of having succeeded in Singapore. On each of these the Minister for the Olympics and my colleague on the visits, what I am asked most is, “How can I get Olympic board, for her unstinting work and her efforts involved? What can we do?”. This is why we are the across government. I am grateful too to the Mayor of first organising committee to have developed, with the 1187 Olympic Games 2012[LORDS] Olympic Games 2012 1188

[LORD COE] the London Games is delighted that Mayor Boris IOC’s support, a way for non-commercial organisations Johnson has pledged to mark this tragedy at the 2012 to be part of the London 2012 experience. We have Games, and the committee is very grateful that the created the Inspire brand, a special mark for sports noble Lord has agreed to this being done. clubs, schools, local authorities and community groups to use. The Inspire programme will allow millions of 11.52 am people to become part of the London 2012 experience, and help to deliver a sporting and cultural legacy, such Lord Corbett of Castle Vale: My Lords, I thank the as Street Games—whose Inspire programme, Legacy noble Lord, Lord Coe, for staging this debate. He may Leaders, is designed to improve access to sport for recall that, when we won the bid for the 2012 Olympics young people in disadvantaged areas—and Animation and Paralympics, I dropped him a note saying something Decathlon, a project that works with young people to along the lines of, “It’s great to know that you can still create outdoor and interactive multimedia as part of come in first”. I congratulate him on the progress that the Cultural Olympiad. Today I am delighted to announce is being made by the organising committee on time— that 175 projects, over 100 of which are part of the ahead in some cases—and, one hopes, on budget. Cultural Olympiad, have been recognised through That said, I want to concentrate on arguments that the Inspire programme and carry the sought-after are going on among the national bodies concerning Inspire mark. two sports: shooting and the equestrian events. There In conclusion, I say once again that the responsibility is serious concern among those bodies about the venues rests with all of us to maximise the benefits from this chosen for those events. Shooting at Woolwich and the once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. It is a time for us all to equestrian events at Greenwich may provide fantastic reaffirm our support for this project and believe in it: televisual locations but both have serious safety issues believe in the progress that we are making; believe that and little or no perceivable construction or sporting we will achieve our goal of a memorable Games that legacies—something stressed in our bid. will touch everyone in the UK and inspire young Shooting around its national home at Bisley and people; and believe that the Games will leave lasting equestrian events at, for example, Badminton, would and sustainable legacies. I know from first-hand experience have left far better legacies and provided better facilities across the country that the enthusiasm, creativity and for competitors and spectators, arguably at lesser excitement are there in abundance. cost. LOCOG rejected British Shooting’s independent assessment of the cost of developing a stand-alone site Lord Jopling: My Lords, is it not extraordinary that next to Bisley, which would have been around £30 million, in the noble Lord’s remarks about the 2012 Olympics some £12 million cheaper than the option at Greenwich. he has said not a word about the security problems? Is Accommodation was not an issue. Near to Bisley, it not a fact that the vicious people around the world Surrey University and planned development by Royal who plan terrorist attacks must regard the London Holloway College to Olympic standards would have Olympics as one of the prime future potential targets? taken care of that. The proposed centre would have Why has he not said anything about those preparations? left a magnificent legacy, as well as having room for more spectators, for training in military marksmanship, for GB, England and Paralympic training, and normal Lord Coe: My Lords, I am grateful for the noble commercial use. Information in this folder from the Lord’s intervention. Of course, the security of the National Rifle Association was provided to both LOCOG Olympic Games underpins all our thinking. It is a and the Olympic Delivery Authority. If the noble critical issue. It is discussed regularly by the Olympic Lord, Lord Coe, does not have a copy, I shall be happy board and we now have an Olympic Security Directorate to provide him with one. under the direction of the Home Secretary. I assure What lies at the heart of this debate is as simple as it the noble Lord that the question of security is always is worrying. The allegation is that the decision by the very close to all our deliberations and, in fact, is on the Olympic Board on venues for shooting and equestrian agenda for the Olympic board meeting which I shall events was based on reports commissioned by LOCOG attend this afternoon when I leave this place. from KPMG and the construction consortium, CLM, We all share the responsibility of encouraging young which contained partial, selective, misleading and people and organisations to make the most of this inaccurate information about alternative venues such opportunity so that, when we look back in 2013, we as Bisley, and ignored totally possible scenic sites such will be able to say, “We made our country proud”. I as Windsor Great Park. The only way to clear the air is look forward to today’s debate and thank the House for LOCOG to make full disclosure to this House and once again for its continuing support and for the to the public of the unedited KPMG and CLM reports benefit of its reservoir of experience. I beg to move and associated papers used to decide these unsafe and for Papers. unsuitable venues, together with details of associated construction and all other costs. The Audit Commission Lord Janner of Braunstone: My Lords, as, unfortunately, may be able to help on this. This will better ensure the I shall not be able to be present at the end of the success that we all want for shooting and equestrian debate, perhaps I may take this opportunity to ask the events and all the other events in 2012. noble Lord to accept my very deep appreciation at his My noble friend Lord Berkeley, who unfortunately agreement to commemorate the 40th anniversary of cannot be here, has asked me to raise a point about the the tragic murder of 11 Israeli athletes during the use of rail freight to take the construction materials to Munich Olympics in 1972. The Jewish Committee for the site. There is good experience in the building of 1189 Olympic Games 2012[18 JUNE 2009] Olympic Games 2012 1190

Heathrow Terminal 5. The extra use of rail freight for its upkeep, other than the £10 million lump sum there cut down on the number of lorry journeys made promised by the mayor. Possibly there will be a national to and from that site. There is a state-of-the-art logistics skills academy for sports and leisure industries and/or terminal on the site, but for the Olympics to gain all the English Institute of Sport on the site. There will be the credit they need, some better attention ought to be an aquatics centre, which will be a beautiful building given to the sustainability aspect. The Rail Freight but hugely expensive to maintain, costing £1 million Group, which my noble friend chairs and of which I per annum, but with no existing revenue funding. am a member, estimates that, through the use of rail, There will be a media centre, which may become the road deliveries to the Stratford site could be reduced site of a new university. by 50 per cent from an estimated 600 to 300 trucks a On the upside, there is a phenomenal transport day at peak, and by 800,000 road deliveries over the legacy for the Stratford area, a well designed athletes whole construction period. Rail produces five times village—with a deal, we hope, shortly to be finalised fewer emissions compared with road, and such savings with a consortium of registered social landlords—a would help the green image the Olympics are hoping splendid velopark, the upkeep of which will be funded to achieve. by the Lea Valley regional park for the next 21 years and, it seems, there will be a new academy located in 11.57 am the village. Lord Clement-Jones: My Lords, everything to do It is not difficult to see that unless there is strong with the London Olympics is a story. One of the most leadership, the legacy is unlikely to materialise in the fascinating was the recent Sunday Times story about form promised. All that would be a challenge to any Type 45 destroyers stationed in the Thames during company, but more especially one that lacks its own the Olympics to protect the Games. Under those sources of finance and has to negotiate with such circumstances, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord myriad bodies. I have no doubt that the ODA and Coe, on keeping his cool throughout and on initiating LOCOG will deliver to time—indeed, perhaps ahead today’s timely debate. Progress on building the venues of time—and within budget, but we on these Benches and preparing for the Games has been remarkable and have real concerns about some aspects of the legacy. I congratulate him and his colleagues at LOCOG and Should not the ODA be more explicitly involved in the the ODA. delivery of the physical legacy ultimately in terms of adaptation of the venues, and so on? Should not its As has been clear from the start, one of the key brief and lifespan be explicitly extended? There are reasons London won the 2012 Olympics was the way question marks about the power of the legacy company. in which it promised legacy. The Olympics would be It is clearly taking over some functions from the LDA, the catalyst for the regeneration and development of but which ones precisely? Will it own and be able to the lower Lea Valley, the site of the Olympic park. I dispose of land? How much autonomy will it in fact want briefly to highlight the opportunities and threats have? Then there is the question of what will be its surrounding the regeneration and tourism legacy of relationship to the strategic regeneration framework the 2012 Olympics. for the area and the five surrounding boroughs. Securing the legacy of the Olympics is a massive We had an extremely useful symposium earlier this task and has myriad aspects. Many organisations are week organised by the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, and involved—not just LOCOG, the ODA, the mayor, the the noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza, about the Olympic GLA and the DCMS, but also the London Thames legacy. The noble Baroness, Lady Ford, was there, too, Gateway Development Corporation, VisitBritain, the extremely helpfully.The Barcelona Games were described BOA, Sport England, the Legacy Trust and the LDA. as the gold standard in terms of legacy. Mark Bostock Now a new kid on the block is being established to of Arup made a very interesting contribution in asking ensure the legacy for the Olympic park and Stratford what will happen when the curtain comes down on the City—the Olympic Park Legacy Company, chaired by Olympics. He emphasised that we must look beyond the noble Baroness, Lady Ford, who is eminently the park and its immediate environs and see the park qualified for the job, with a chief executive, Andrew fitting into the lower Lea Valley and beyond. Altman, likewise well qualified, having been deputy mayor of Philadelphia. The noble Lord, Lord Mawson, and the five boroughs However, although the Olympic Park Legacy Company have articulated such a vision: Water City, which would will cost £1 million per annum to run, it seems that encompass a much broader area including Poplar, the this body will have no capital budget and will be there lower Lea Valley and Canary Wharf. Will the Olympic entirely to sell the virtues of the park to prospective Park fit into this? Will the new six neighbourhoods, occupiers. The mayor described its purpose as a vehicle which will expand into the surrounding areas, fit into to enthuse private enterprise to finance the legacy. I that vision? How will the legacy company, with its sincerely congratulate him on having the foresight to limited territorial spread, achieve that? The noble set up a legacy vehicle for the park, but is it really Lord, Lord Mawson, has also made a powerful case—I going to raise the money? The company will have am sure that he will again today—for a social entrepreneur particular responsibility in respect of the Olympic to be on the board of the legacy company. The venues. This legacy company will have a wonderful composition of the board will be extremely important. new park the size of Hyde Park with no finance for its The British tourism framework review document upkeep. It will have a beautiful stadium dedicated to published earlier this year, as well as arguing for a full athletics, which will be reduced from a seating capacity agency to promote English tourism, makes a powerful of 80,000 to 25,000, but no legacy tenants or finance case for more government support to take full opportunity 1191 Olympic Games 2012[LORDS] Olympic Games 2012 1192

[LORD CLEMENT-JONES] AIDS in Zambia; we have introduced for the first time of the 2012 London Olympic Games. The Government disability sport in Azerbaijan, a concept which is now anticipate that the London Olympics will provide a built into their national physical education and sport major boost to the sector. The framework review strategy. It is critical that the UK uses the momentum makes the case that we cannot successfully promote of the Games to reach out to the youth of the world. the UK as a tourist destination in the run-up to the We hope, beyond 2012, that the case for sport as an 2012 Olympics without additions to VisitBritain’s international tool for development will be both understood promotional budget. and continue to be invested in over the years ahead. My noble friend Lord Lee and I have been on the Here in the UK we have seen an unheralded revolution warpath for at least two years, but the Government in school sport and a reintroduction of physical education seem to be completely deaf to pleas for more funding and school sport into both our secondary and primary to promote Britain as a destination in the run-up to schools. I hope we can use the power of the Games to the Olympics. The Sydney Games were exploited by consolidate sport at the heart of school life. Through Australia as an overall marketing event, as well as a the work of the Youth Sport Trust, we know that hugely successful global sporting event, but they had quality physical education and sport can help schools government money to help them. It is hardly surprising achieve better academic standards. It can certainly that the industry does not understand the logic of improve ethos and behaviour, even in the most challenging cutting funding for tourism marketing in the run-up to schools in the most difficult areas of this country. It the 2012 Olympics. If further funding is not received, can definitely have an impact on improved health and Britain will almost certainly miss the opportunity to wellbeing, including emotional and mental health. It maximise the economic and social benefits that the can indeed tackle issues of social inclusion and community tourism industry has on offer. I very much hope that cohesion. Surely one of the greatest legacies we could the Government will change their mind. see from London 2012 is that school sport is embedded in the heart of every school. I would argue that school sport is more than a game. Physical education and 12.04 pm sport are not an optional extra but a way of building a Baroness Campbell of Loughborough: My Lords, it new youth culture that is so needed in this country. is a great privilege and pleasure to make my maiden Finally, I turn to those young people who will speech on a topic of such importance and one about compete in 2012. When we achieved our finest results which I feel so passionate. I should like to begin by for 100 years in Beijing—fourth in the Olympics and congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Coe, on the second in the Paralympics Games—it was heralded as immense progress he has made in delivering the Games a great success. The Olympics and Paralympics arena to London. I am sure that his outstanding leadership is a theatre of dreams. It is a place where ordinary from those early days in Singapore will continue to people battle against all sorts of odds and, through deliver a very successful Games in London in three hard work and perseverance, achieve their dreams. It years’ time. is their journey, not the medal, which inspires us all. Since winning the right to stage the Games, much UK Sport is building a world-class system that will of the talk has been around regeneration and facilities, give us great pride as we see our athletes achieve in both of which are very important. However, I should 2012. I hope that beyond 2012 we begin to appreciate like to focus for a few moments on the impact of the that our elite sportsmen and women are not just about Games on people’s lives and young people in particular. national pride but about setting an example for every In Singapore in July 2005, the noble Lord, Lord Coe, young person in this country to achieve their personal when winning the bid, said that if London was successful best, whatever their circumstances and however difficult we would, their journey. “use the power of the Games to inspire young people to choose London 2012 is a unique, galvanising force, a catalyst sport”. for unprecedented focus and activity. The legacy could Having spent my life working in sport, I can testify to be that we lay the foundations for generational change. the immense power it has to change lives. Nelson Let London 2012 not be an end but a beginning Mandela said that sport spoke to young people in a for sport in the UK and for the unity of the youth of language they understood; that it was an instrument the world. for peace, building bridges and breaking down barriers between young people across the world. 12.10 pm So how do we deliver on that promise up to 2012 Lord Pendry: My Lords, I, too, thank and congratulate and, perhaps just as importantly, beyond? Internationally, the noble Lord, Lord Coe, on introducing this important UK Sport, working with the British Council, UNICEF, debate. In my view, there is no better person to do it. LOCOG, the British Olympic Association, the British He may be tired of hearing this from me, but I will say Paralympics Association and the Youth Sport Trust, is it again anyway; I was the only MP to defy the boycott delivering international inspiration. This programme, and go to the 1980 Olympic Games in Moscow, and I targeted at 20 developing countries across the world, is saw him win his gold and silver medals for the 1,500 metres aimed at changing the lives of 12 million young people. and 800 metres. I contend that I did not go to Moscow; We are working in India to give young women the I went to Olympia. At the same Olympics, the noble self-confidence and self-esteem to play their full part Lord, Lord Moynihan, also won a silver medal as a in society through their engagement in sport; we use cox in the men’s rowing eight, and also deserves our sport to attract young people so that we can assist in greatest acclamation. It is very nice to see them sitting delivering very challenging messages around HIV and cosily in the Chamber today. 1193 Olympic Games 2012[18 JUNE 2009] Olympic Games 2012 1194

It is a particular pleasure for me to speak after the today and also for the leadership and inspiration that noble Baroness, Lady Campbell of Loughborough, he has given to this whole enterprise. Youmay ask why has made her maiden speech. I have known her for a Bishop is taking an interest in all of this. Let me tell many years and I believe her to be one of the most you that the vast majority of the Stratford site lies in inspirational women in sport. She is a former international my diocese. We are now calling ourselves “The Olympic netball player and lecturer at the University of diocese of Chelmsford”. Loughborough. I could go on and on about her many I remember that on the evening we successfully won achievements, but time is against me. Suffice it to say the Games, I was in East Ham, licensing a new priest that we now have in this House someone who will raise in a packed church. The sense of excitement across the bar on sport, and I welcome her with open arms. that community over the Games coming to east London Long may she take part in debates on sport, and was palpable. It was a great evening of celebration. instead of being guest speaker at the All-Party Group Sadly, the following day the bombs went off in central on Sports may she now become a full member and London and we had a rather more sober evening in make her contributions felt there, too. Southend that night. As noble Lords have mentioned, the Olympics are a great opportunity to increase participation in sport I asked myself on that evening, “What can we do?” throughout the United Kingdom. One of the recent As a result of that, we, together with all the dioceses in interesting developments has been the decision to London, and working hand in hand with our ecumenical enter a Great Britain football team for the first time in and inter-faith partners, appointed an officer, Canon more than 40 years. This decision, thankfully, has the Duncan Green, with the full support of the Archbishop support of the other football associations of Scotland, of Canterbury, to co-ordinate with the Games. Moreover, Wales and Northern Ireland. Their support is historic the House may be interested to know that the hard hat in itself. chaplaincy to the site is provided also by one of my priests. I gather his ministry among the workers on the In the short time available to me, I should like to site is much appreciated. pose one or two questions. When winning the bid in Singapore, a commitment was given that this would The House will know that the London borough of encompass the whole of the United Kingdom—I am Newham is one of the youngest and most diverse sure that the noble Lord, Lord Coe, is listening to urban communities in Europe. One of the things that every word of this—including all its youths. Yet I am the churches and faith communities will be concerned hearing some disturbing reports that the volunteers with is to encourage young people to engage with the are being recruited almost exclusively from the south. Games, especially in those communities. I was particularly I understand they are being told that they must pay appreciative of an excellent and very inspirational their own travel and accommodation costs, but this is maiden speech from the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell difficult for youths in the Midlands and the north to of Loughborough, on the same sort of theme. I very sustain in comparison with their London and other much hope that, in the vexed question of security that southern counterparts. I would be very happy to hear surrounds these Games, we will not end up with the the noble Lord, Lord Coe, in his winding-up speech, local young people looking in on an event that they do or the Minister when he replies, give an assurance that not have access to. I am very encouraged by the this is not the case. comments of the noble Lord, Lord Coe, about the In addition, I understand that the organisers of the need for volunteers and their training. There are huge London Marathon will organise the Olympic marathon, opportunities for an international and young community but there seems to be no tendering process to allow to participate. Anything that we can do in the churches other potential organisers—for example, those who and faith communities to help with that, we will organised the Great North Run—to participate in that gladly do. decision. The second aspect of our involvement in the Games I am also concerned about the Olympic Delivery is the business of hospitality. The world is coming to Authority not being as transparent as one would hope east London and the United Kingdom. The London in the tendering of contracts. One Commonwealth Borough of Newham already has 120 languages spoken country that provided the trees for the Beijing Olympics in it. The world is already there. It is a wonderful place was allegedly prevented from giving the same services to have a great international event. If there are ways in to the London Olympics, although they were offered which we can enable that community to spread its at a discounted price. I understand that a representative hospitality, to make its welcome felt around the Games, of the company is raising the matter in another forum, that, too, is important. so I shall leave it there. Thirdly, I want to say something about the legacy. Finally, I attended the Munich, Moscow, Atlanta One of the things, dare I say, that churches and faith and Athens Olympic Games, so, as noble Lords may communities know something about is community imagine, I give my wholehearted support to the noble building. The legacy will be vital. It is not just a Lord and his team, as I am sure they will galvanise our physical legacy, important though that is—and it is great sporting nation to deliver a highly successful lovely to see the site developing in the way that it is. It Games in the true Olympic spirit. is also in the sense of ownership of the community of what is going on. Clearly, we need leadership, but that 12.14 pm has to be balanced so that we do not get the sort of The Lord Bishop of Chelmsford: My Lords, I share leadership where local people feel that there is a great with others around this Chamber a huge appreciation juggernaut being imposed upon them about the shape of the noble Lord, Lord Coe, for giving us this opportunity of their future. I was very heartened by the comments 1195 Olympic Games 2012[LORDS] Olympic Games 2012 1196

[THE LORD BISHOP OF CHELMSFORD] the shortfall. In line with our obligations to the of the noble Lord, Lord Coe, about the partnership International Olympic Committee charter, the BOA process. It is crucial that the partnership takes with it will continue to seek ways to provide all Olympic not only the local authorities but the networks that sports, including the winter sports, with the best financial make these communities effective. Ultimately, the test platform possible for the athletes to compete at their of the Games for these communities will be in the best level at the Games. This is essential not only for legacy, and we know from past experience that that their success but, as the noble Baroness said, for the can sometimes be difficult. We want them to have inspiration that sporting success delivers as a catalyst memories for their lifetime, particularly for the younger for wider participation among young people across generation to carry forward, but we also want them to the country. We must work together to ensure that feel that a new chapter is opening up for their community priority spend is on athletes. as a consequence of this investment. Where urban regeneration is concerned, the Finally, I think that the Games are coming at just Government should be congratulated on their support the right moment for our national life. Here we are in for the vision first laid out by the British Olympic the middle of a recession and people are anxious Association under the leadership of my predecessor, about their future. Might not 2012 be a great moment Sir Craig Reedie, and the then Mayor of London, Ken for a celebration of our national life and to give our Livingstone, to use the Games as a catalyst for the country a boost? Whatever we can do to make these regeneration of one of the poorest parts of London. Games succeed, we must all bend our energies As a result, the Games will bring an unprecedented towards it. level of investment to regenerate and reinvigorate the East End against a timetable that, uniquely, no political party can abandon or delay, for the world’s finest 12.20 pm athletes will be ready to compete after the opening Lord Moynihan: My Lords, I declare my interest as ceremony. chairman of the British Olympic Association and in To match the success of the work on urban so doing I thank my noble friend Lord Coe, on whose regeneration, we now need to turn our attention to a LOCOG board I also serve, for securing the debate. fully funded sports legacy. With the same spirit of the My noble friend exemplifies the truism that the success all-party support and co-operation that was a feature of London 2012 will be based on seamless co-operation of the historic debate in your Lordships’ House—those between the main stakeholders, whose job it is to who participated in it provided the Cabinet with evidence provide the athletes with lifetime memories of a great of the unanimous commitment of your Lordships to Games. In that context, I warmly welcome this debate, bring the Games to London—we now need to address in which the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell of a sports legacy that goes beyond what has been described Loughborough, has made her maiden speech. The as a patchwork quilt made up of a multitude of well contribution that she and UK Sport, which she intentioned and sometimes excellent individual chairs, have made to the success of British athletes is programmes to a focused set of policies to ensure that exceptional. the Games leave a sporting legacy throughout the Since Beijing, the British Olympic Association has country for the able-bodied, the disabled and, in particular, built strong working relations with UK Sport, culminating young people. It is their talent that needs to be identified in a joint presentation at our annual meeting yesterday. and developed to the full, so that their children one I can assure the House that, despite press leaks to the day can look back and say that, had the Games not contrary, the BOA’s finances are robust. The investments come to London, their generation would never have that we made last year in a wide-ranging restructure of seen the necessary upgrading and construction of new the organisation allow us to move from a magnificent sports facilities across London and the rest of the result for Team GB in Beijing to a platform for success United Kingdom, a nationwide rollout of new play in London 2012 and beyond. This will not be a 100-metre areas and playing fields and the full engagement of sprint; it is a marathon. I do not deny that at times clubs, schools and local authorities in this effort to during 2008 I felt as if I was rewiring a plane in flight, enhance and capture the enthusiasm of young people but with the success of Team GB in Beijing we reached through competitive sport. the next destination on our strategic path. The seamless To that end, today I am delighted to accept the co-operation that we have achieved with the support invitation from Kate Hoey, the Mayor of London’s of LOCOG and UK Sport is a major step forward Commissioner for Sport, to work with her on the along this road. London Community Sports Board to deliver this vision Now we are working together to ensure that Team for Londoners. Building on the work with which I GB is fully funded. In his 2006 Budget, Gordon Brown have had the privilege to be involved as Minister for committed to fund a six-year programme to support Sport and MP for Lewisham East, we must get inner-city British athletes to the value of £600 million, a figure kids out of gangs and into teams. Sport can play a key that the British Olympic Association, UK Sport and role in taking kids off the escalator to crime. The the Department for Culture, Media and Sport saw as Mayor of London, Boris Johnson, has taken a lead on necessary to deliver the full potential of our Olympians sports legacy in London. I hope that all political and Paralympians in London 2012. Sadly, last year parties can come together in a common cause to make that commitment was underfunded by some £50 million, sure that we achieve a step change in the provision of while the lifetime budget of government spend on civil both Olympic-level performance and active participation servants working in the ever growing Government in sport and recreation, not only in London but Olympic Executive increased by a sum approaching throughout the country. 1197 Olympic Games 2012[18 JUNE 2009] Olympic Games 2012 1198

12.26 pm on spectators getting closer to the players, as is customary in rugby and football matches. I fear that this will Lord St John of Bletso: My Lords, I join in thanking result in it being difficult to find a permanent tenant the noble Lord, Lord Coe, for giving us this unique for the Olympic stadium. Plans to create a permanent opportunity to debate both the challenges and the sports academy under the east stand are to be welcomed, opportunities of the 2012 Summer Olympic Games. but perhaps the Minister could let us know of alternative The noble Lord has become synonymous with the plans to use the structure after the Games. event, both through his outstanding leadership of the bid and now through his central role in the organisation There are a number of major challenges facing the of the Games. organising committee of such a major sporting event, but perhaps none is greater than the need to meet the There is no doubt that the challenge of organising demand for transport, accommodation and, of course, the Games in an efficient and cost-effective manner security for both athletes and spectators. Does the has been made significantly harder by the economic Olympic transport plan include plans to make better downturn. It is a simple reality that a number of use of the Thames? public/private partnerships have not materialised and This is a unique opportunity for London. I share that more funding will be sought from the taxpayer. It the vision and the call of my noble friend Lady Campbell is encouraging that the noble Lord, Lord Coe, mentioned of Loughborough, in her outstanding maiden speech, that all the ticks were in the box, but there still will that this is a unique galvanising force that, we hope, need to be substantially more funding. It goes without will have a lasting impact on our young people’s lives. saying that no money should be wasted. However, it is equally important that, even amidst 12.31 pm these pressures, LOCOG and the Olympic Development Lord Patten: My Lords, I declare my interest as Authority should not lose sight of the reason why recorded, particularly my membership of the advisory London decided to bid for this event in the first place. board of the British Olympic Association. I strongly As every speaker has mentioned, this is all about the support everything that my noble friends Lord Coe regeneration of a specific area of east London—the and Lord Moynihan have just said. I have two sets of transformation of that community for its young from necessarily hard-edged points and questions for the the twilight of social and economic deprivation into a Government to answer, on the growth of government modern, thriving, prosperous hub. Even under intense bureaucracy in relation to the Olympic programme in financial pressure, each key decision must be informed the run-up to 2012 and on security at the Olympics. by the paramount need to leave a legacy in this part First, there is too much Olympic bureaucracy—I of London. am referring to government bureaucracy here. It is Barcelona offers a classic example. Until 1992, the growing too fast, it is too costly and the money that is Catalan capital was known as the city that turned its being spent on it should be spent on athletes, not on back on the sea. The programme of urban regeneration office workers, or should not be spent at all but saved, in preparation for the Olympic Games there effectively in our present economic circumstances. Among all the rebranded the city as one of Europe’s most glamorous LOCOGs, ODAs and BOAs—the bodies that necessarily destinations and the extensive economic benefits are and excellently populate this stage of Olympic still being reaped almost two decades later. preparations—there is another, much less well known body: the GOE. What is this? I stumbled upon this London 2012 will certainly provide 16 days of hitherto secretive body, which the Government never outstanding sport, yet the Olympics will be judged in announced publicly in any blaze of publicity. It is the London as an unqualified success only if the event Government Olympic Executive. Anxious to learn about leaves a clear and measurable legacy for this great city. this, I asked a series of Parliamentary Questions on Part of the legacy will clearly be the physical infrastructure, its role and staffing that were answered, in his but an important element of it should be created in the characteristically assiduous way, by the noble Lord, hearts and minds of Londoners who are exposed to Lord Davies of Oldham. He kindly told me in a the benefits of sport and healthy living. Can the Minister Written Answer on 20 May that the Government comment on whether Olympics-based programmes Olympic Executive had precisely 91.9 full-time equivalents are being promulgated throughout London’s schools working for it, reporting to the Permanent Secretary and sports academies, using the spirit of Olympism to at the Department for Culture, Media and Sport. It excite and inspire young people? was broken down into various teams, he told me, in I shall touch briefly on the post-Games use of the charge of build and finance, staging, legacy, operations main Olympic stadium. I welcome the construction and communications—all this at a cost in 2008-09 of plan to remove the upper tier and reduce the capacity £7 million. I suspect that, since then, that has grown to 27,000 after the Olympics. There is still a danger, substantially. however, that instead of a large white elephant with a In another Answer on 19 May, the same Minister capacity in excess of 70,000, the city may be left with a kindly stated that, smaller, but still substantial, white elephant. Will the “the GOE requires oversight of the entire 2012 programme”.—[Official Minister provide us with an update on the latest Report, 19/5/09; col. WA 304.] discussions with prospective tenants? I am a bit concerned about the use of the word I understand that various football and rugby clubs “requires” there and the civil servants who drafted it; I have looked at the stadium but have been disappointed wish that we had the noble Lord, Lord Quirk, that by the reality of a permanent athletics track around great grammarian, in the Chamber to look at that use the playing area. Obviously this would have an impact of the word. That, however, is the word that was used. 1199 Olympic Games 2012[LORDS] Olympic Games 2012 1200

[LORD PATTEN] on the Olympic legacy. I declare an interest in that I The GOE has oversight, so the Government say. It was an original member of the Culture and Education is therefore responsible if anything goes wrong. So I Committee for the Olympic project. sat back and thought, “Well, those are the answers. I Given that we are about to stage the world’s greatest now know what the situation is”. Subsequently, though, sporting event, it is appropriate that the emphasis is on I found out that at exactly the same time that those ensuring that the spectacle is the best it can be and that answers were being considered and composed by the our athletes compete to win and do us proud. It is also civil servants, a substantial Olympic presentation was hugely important that community-based sporting given by officials from the self-same Government Olympic initiatives are put in place, as has already been mentioned, Executive to the interested Olympic parties in London that will have a lasting impact on the health of the on 13 May 2009, where they were told that the number nation. We should not underestimate the potential of of staff involved was not the 91.9 of the Government the cultural Olympiad to transform and contribute to Executive but, rather, that there were—wait for it, my the mental and physical well-being of the UK as well; Lords—782 “focused staff”, to use the language of the cultural programme also offers us the opportunity the presentation, in government departments and non- to derive economic, social and cultural benefit from departmental public bodies concerned with the Olympics. the Games. Many of the comments made by my, Of those, a staggering 81 are working in communications. perhaps I may say, new noble friend Lady Campbell What on earth can the cost of all this be? about the transformative potential of sport apply equally On the matter of cost—this is a restricted debate so to arts and culture. I do not have time to go into this in greater detail—I have learnt that, for example, five civil servants from As we heard in the excellent debate initiated last the Government Olympic Executive are going to be week by the noble Lord, Lord Bragg, the arts, cultural sent to Vancouver for the Winter Games. It is reasonable and creative sector in London employs more than half to ask why. How much should this cost? Is the Minister a million people, second only in size to the financial aware that our skiers face major financial constraints sector. There are still a huge variety of jobs and in preparations for going, and that Winter Games are opportunities for inventive, creative entrepreneurs. Part about athletes, not visiting civil servants? After all, I of the legacy of the Cultural Olympiad should be that do not think we are going to see much snow in more young people are made aware of the range of London in 2012. If I were the Permanent Secretary at opportunities in the sector and the potential for the DCMS, I would be a bit nervous of the heavy employment, for self-employment, for learning and boots of the Public Accounts Committee in the other for developing transferable skills. place approaching my door, wanting to look at expenditure There is ample, documented evidence of the medium on this sort of thing. A future Conservative Government, to long-term benefits of facilitating the growth of the if elected, will need to get to grips with this staggering cultural economy—creativity and culture have been bureaucracy and misapplication of resources. the drivers of a number of large-scale regeneration I turn to security. I hear continuing murmurs from projects, as we have already heard. For example, I those concerned that there is still a lack of proper should mention Barcelona and those here in this country security co-ordination, which must be sorted out soon. in Newcastle and Gateshead, Glasgow, Walsall and of Who, under the Home Secretary of the day—or perhaps course in London King’s Cross and Bromley-by-Bow. these days I should say “the Home Secretary of the Arguably, London does not need to boost its week”—is the named official or police officer with international reputation as a city of culture, steeped as ultimate overall responsibility for the co-ordination of it is in history and also confident in its engagement Olympic security? Is there such a person? If not, why with global modernity and contemporary culture. In not? The Minister owes us an answer to that question. the East End of London, artists and creatives have Do the Government yet have what is known in the habitually played a vital role in regeneration and trade as a CONOPS—or, to deconstruct that ugly renewal. Artists have been and still are central to east abbreviation, an integrated concept of operations—that London’s renewed vigour and attraction, with a greater is fully worked up with regard to Olympic security? concentration of visual artists located there than anywhere It has been suggested that one does not yet exist. else in Europe. It is home to a vibrant, inventive and When will a statement be made, which has long been increasingly ethical fashion and design industry, and promised, about the introduction of such an integrated in addition there are filmmakers, theatre and dance plan—setting aside, of course, those things that must practitioners and so on. I would urge those involved necessarily be kept secret? We need urgent reassurance with the Legacy Trust to ensure that artists and from the Government on stopping the growth of practitioners are also invited to contribute their insights bureaucracy and expenditure, and on promoting a and energies to that project. proper security plan. I note the progress made so far with the cultural programme, which in spite of some initial disappointments, 12.38 pm looks set to be much more inclusive than appeared to Baroness Young of Hornsey: My Lords, like other be the case at the outset. The responses to funding noble Lords today, I congratulate the noble Lord, programmes, as already mentioned, have been substantial. Lord Coe, and his colleagues on the wonderful However, I do not feel there is any room for complacency achievements with regard to our progress on the Olympics. on this issue. There are still many people both in the The timing is particularly good because it follows hot East End and outside London who do not see these on the heels of an event earlier this week, organised by opportunities and do not see a role for themselves in my noble friends Lord Mawson and Lady D’Souza, the Cultural Olympiad. 1201 Olympic Games 2012[18 JUNE 2009] Olympic Games 2012 1202

The Arts Council of England is endeavouring to such as the ambulance services, designated Olympic support a wide range of projects and work by levering hospitals, NHS trusts, PCTs, government bodies and funds from a range of sources and collaborating with other agencies, as well as the development of a number other organisations—for example the BBC—on delivering of medical teams covering every specialism and ensuring major projects. The Arts Council is also working on co-ordination for response and delivery. the Unlimited programme which will, I think, be a I was truly impressed by the preparation to date in very good juxtaposition to the Paralympics in particular. providing healthcare provision across all 102 Olympic More widely, the Unlimited programme will be the sites, for 250,000 accredited people, 9 million visitors, UK’s largest ever celebration of arts and disability, and not forgetting 400 horses. I therefore offer my culture and sport. Another flagship project already congratulations to all those who are working in that mentioned is Artists taking the Lead, which again field. But as chair of the Independent Advisory Group hopes to reach across the country to involve many on Sexual Health and HIV, my concern is that there is people outside London. adequate sexual health provision. Evidence from the I hope that the cultural programme will help to Sydney Games shows us to expect a big increase in ensure that the Olympics really do reach out across the demand for sexual health services with a corresponding UK, but there are still some big questions to be increase in sexually related diseases, mainly among addressed, especially in terms of the strategic vision casual workers, making it important that prevention for the cultural element of the Olympics, and what and health promotion services are in place now. happens afterwards with the cultural legacy. On the There is clearly a need for a co-ordinated sexual matter of legacy, who has oversight and who is in a health plan to detail the priorities for London health position to assess the strength of cultural legacy plans services. An ad hoc committee was established of across the country? Where does the ultimate responsibility which I was a part, but after discussions with the for the Cultural Olympiad and its aftermath lie? How medical director for the Games, I am very pleased that are cultural legacy plans envisaged? If there are it is now officially a subgroup of the London Sexual 50 projects, does that mean 50 different visions of Health Commissioning Board. Its aim is to provide a what constitutes a sustainable legacy for the sector? positive legacy to other big sporting events on how to How are the plans for cultural legacy integrated into plan appropriate sexual health services and prevent the overall vision for the legacy of the Games as the spread of infections. a whole? I now turn to the trafficking of women for the On my list of desirable aims for the cultural programme purpose of prostitution. Last December, in my role as are: laying the foundations for a much more diverse chair of the Women’s National Commission, I wrote cultural workforce, particularly in leadership roles; a to the noble Lord, Lord Coe, to express our concern solid core of arts organisations beyond “the usual and the concern of the women’s sector regarding the suspects” with the resilience and flexibility to see them potential for increased violence against women associated through troubled times; new effective and equitable with the Olympics. There is clear evidence from other partnerships and models of partnerships that cross art Games of a correlation between major sporting events forms and disciplinary boundaries, linking, for example, and an increase in human trafficking. In reply, noble science and sport; an overall strengthening of the Lord, Lord Coe, indicated that a member of his office sector through the recognition of what culture and would be in touch to discuss this further, but I regret creativity can contribute to the UK socially, economically to say to him that we never heard another word since, and culturally; and to set a new benchmark for the and we look forward to that meeting. quality of and commitment to the Cultural Olympiad Britain is a Mecca for the low-risk, high-profit in future Games. industry of human trafficking which centres upon Lots of excellent art projects will be great and will London. The Olympics is expected to have a major give a feel-good factor, but what about the expectation impact on the sex industry across London and the raised, and how can we go a bit further to ensure that south-east, if not further afield. Since London was there is a real, sustainable, integrated cultural, social named, there has already been an influx of contractors and economic strategy? into the area. As the site develops, an increasing number of agency workers—predominantly male—are 12.44 pm being accommodated in the locality. Already, according Baroness Gould of Potternewton: My Lords, I, too, to the Metropolitan Police, host and neighbouring thank the noble Lord, Lord Coe, for initiating this boroughs are reporting anecdotal evidence of an increase debate as it gives me the opportunity to raise two new in applications for licences for massage parlours and issues which are separate in context but aligned. saunas. Such premises are understood to operate as First, I want to refer to the medical and healthcare quasi-legal brothels. provision for all the client groups associated with the It is not only the people employed in preparing for Games; and, secondly, to deal with the problem of the Olympics in London who are expected to inflate women being trafficked into this country for the purpose demand for prostitution, but also the tourists and of prostitution during the course of the Games. indeed the athletic community. We need to learn from I have been fortunate to have heard a number of international colleagues what they have learnt about presentations by LOCOG on the planning process for combating human trafficking, for there is no question the healthcare requirements for the Olympic Games, that established trafficking networks are composed of and it is difficult to imagine until it is spelt out the astute, discrete and sophisticated organised criminal magnitude of the work that is entailed. We have heard operators who will seek to maximise their profits about the need to work with a whole range of partners during the period available. 1203 Olympic Games 2012[LORDS] Olympic Games 2012 1204

[BARONESS GOULD OF POTTERNEWTON] Domestically, as the noble Lord, Lord Coe, set out, The women’s sector is proposing that the organising there is also considerable progress on legacy. However, committee takes the following action for the 2012 I do not think that everything is quite as rosy as he Olympics: conduct an immediate risk assessment that implied. My passion about sport is to use it as a tool is informed by consultation with local and regional for personal development and education and to get experts, and through this develop a comprehensive children who are not succeeding in life to succeed via preventive strategy to address women’s safety and the medium of sport. In that capacity, I am chair of especially trafficking for sexual exploitation; undertake sport at the Prince’s Trust, as I have been over the past a women’s safety audit; undertake public awareness 12 years. During that period we have worked with tens campaigns about trafficking targeted at contractors, of thousands of young people, unemployed young athletes and spectators; issue strong statements on the people and children who are failing at school. By intent of the organising committee to make the Games working principally with the professional sports clubs, safe for women; and, as part of the legacy of the we have helped to turn round the lives of many of Games, to extend the capacity of those projects which those children and young people. support women who have been trafficked and have been sexually assaulted. When we learnt that the Olympics were coming to London, the trust, like many other NGOs in this area, The Women’s National Commission was was very excited about it. It was even more excited commissioned by the Home Office to assist with the when, in April 2007, it was approached by the DCMS development of the national strategy on violence against to discuss a potential major funding partnership with women. Using our considerable expertise, we would government. A figure of £30 million was mentioned, welcome an opportunity to discuss these issues and to be split between the trust and the Duke of Edinburgh work with and make further representations to the awards. The trust therefore developed the concept of organising committee. The Olympic and Paralympic the Active Generation fund and the Active Generation values of friendship, equality, respect, courage, programme, which, through the trust’s work, would be determination, excellence and inspiration will be severely used to support at least 10,000 more young people compromised and sullied if trafficking and sexual who are not in education, employment or training to assaults are associated with the event. It would also be become economically, socially and physically active shameful for this country. I hope we can have a guarantee and to play a positive part in their communities. that it will not be allowed to happen. 12.50 pm Unfortunately, since that point, the funding promised has completely failed to materialise. It is the trust’s Lord Newby: My Lords, I join other noble Lords in view that LOCOG and the DCMS have not managed congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Coe, on securing to create a coherent campaign behind which the third this debate. I also congratulate the noble Baroness, sector could unite to deliver legacy ambitions. The Lady Campbell of Loughborough, on a splendid and noble Lord, Lord Coe, spoke about the Inspire typically passionate maiden speech. She has done programme. The Inspire programme has many strengths more than any other person in this country to bring but it also has some weaknesses. The Inspire mark is a sport back into schools. I am sure that she will make a splendid thing, but there are problems associated with significant contribution to debates in your Lordships’ it. First, it does not bring any funding, so having it House, not just on sport, we hope, but on wider issues brings the kudos of the mark but not any practical as well. I also commend both LOCOG and the support. If you want to start a programme from Government for the progress that has been made not scratch, the Inspire mark does not get you there. The just on the physical work for the Olympics but on the trust will now seek to do the logical thing—to go out legacy: sporting, educational and physical. There is no and get funding from the corporate sector, in association doubt that London will have a more significant legacy with the Inspire mark, so that it can develop the programme than any previous Olympic Games, and programme that it cannot now develop through all those involved are to be congratulated on their government funding. commitment to it. There are two strands to the legacy: domestic and However, there are some problems. First, the trust international. The noble Baroness spoke about is told that it cannot approach Olympic sponsors, so international inspiration. I declare an interest as chair they are ruled out. Secondly, it is told that it cannot of IDS, UK Sport’s international development charity, approach non-Olympic sponsors, because they are which has some involvement with International not Olympic sponsors. So, as things stand and as the Inspiration. International Inspiration does what it says trust understands it, there is no prospect of getting on the tin. It is already inspiring hundreds of thousands corporate support. It is a Catch-22 situation. Having of children and young people throughout the world the mark gives you kudos and makes it easier to raise not just to play sport but to play a more positive part funds for a programme, because it is linked to the in the society in which they live. The work that it is Olympics, which are sexy, but, equally, having the doing in India with girls from marginalised communities, mark means that you cannot go to the people from in getting them back into school and getting them to whom you can get the funds. It is a real issue. I am not realise their potential to be more than housewives saying that it is an insuperable issue and I am not stuck at home, is truly inspirational. The work that it raising it simply to whinge, because I am sure that is doing in Brazil with street children whose main there will be a way through it. However, if we are to outlook and opportunities tend to revolve around maximise the benefit that the Olympics can bring and gangs is also truly inspirational. Everyone involved in inspire a whole new generation not just internationally that programme should be congratulated on it. but at home, we have to get this kind of model sorted 1205 Olympic Games 2012[18 JUNE 2009] Olympic Games 2012 1206 out. I believe that we can and I believe that the sector structures that litter the valley—more than Olympics in London can deliver the best Olympic 40—must now come together around a common vision legacy ever. and clear leadership. Hazel Blears has now moved on, as Ministers have a habit of doing, and east London 12.56 pm leaders hope that John Denham will maintain the momentum and ensure that this important agreement Lord Mawson: My Lords, I, too, thank the noble is concluded quickly. Lord, Lord Coe, for leading this important debate. It The second important thing that has been achieved is a very helpful time to have this discussion, because a in the past year by central government, together with great deal has happened during the past year and new the Mayor of London, Boris Johnson, is the appointment opportunities are now presenting themselves, which of the noble Baroness, Lady Ford, to chair the Olympic allow us all to move on and to deal with the concerns Park Legacy Company. The noble Baroness brings that some of us have been expressing for some time. I great experience and enormous new vigour to the would therefore like to concentrate my thoughts on legacy task and we welcome her to east London. She the opportunities presented by the Olympic legacy, also clearly understands the need to harness the energies particularly as it relates to the East End of London. of central government, London government, local Two days ago, your Lordships’ House held its second government, social entrepreneurs and the communities symposium on the Olympic legacy. So what progress in which they work. She clearly sees that the development has actually been made since the first symposium, of the Olympic park is key to the physical, social and 12 months ago, as a result of our activities? First, the economic transformation of east London. This presents Government have listened to our concerns. A Minister us all with exciting times ahead. who understood the legacy issues has now worked We now need a clear, wider vision for the Lower with east London leaders. The then Secretary of State, Lea Valley and east London, within which the Olympic Hazel Blears, understood that the local is a key component project sits; we need a vision that is deeply rooted in of the Olympic legacy in east London; she understood the history and geography of the place, for what we that the Olympic project is not something that happens are together creating is a new metropolitan district of behind an 11-mile blue fence about which people are London. Many of us call it Water City, because water simply consulted but that strands of gold need now to has driven the economy of east London for 2,000 years. be wound into the Olympic project from the surrounding Take a boat trip up the five and a half miles of communities. East Londoners need to feel real ownership waterways that span the Lower Lea Valley, as I did of the Olympic site when the biggest show on earth recently with the then Secretary of State, and you will leaves town. understand, as she did, the significance of what some We have built a number of small parks in east of us have been saying on the matter. What we need London, across the road from the Olympic site. I now from the public sector is less politics and more know what happens to the investment in such places if continuity and practical action on the ground. people do not feel that they have a real stake in their All of the above are important steps forward since future. The Minister showed that she understood this the debate that I led in January 2008 in your Lordships’ point and that legacy is not just for local authorities House and the Olympic legacy symposium that I but for local people who have been encouraged to feel organised in June last year. A year ago, leadership was involved with the project. The Minister realised that seen as the key to success. What has made the difference this important component of legacy had been missing. this past year has been clear, strong leadership from The Secretary of State, following our conversations one or two individuals in government and local earlier this year, began to use the tools available to her government and from those to whom they have given in government to bring resources and freedoms from authority to act. We are in a period of political turmoil. government structures to begin to make this real. For We must not lose the gains that we have made. We example, she led negotiations with the five host boroughs need to apply clear vision and leadership to keep up for a multi-area agreement, based on the idea of the momentum. convergence—that is, that the quality of life and economic At the close of the second Olympic legacy symposium health of east Londoners should be brought up to the two days ago, I announced the creation of an all-party level enjoyed by the rest of London, that east London parliamentary group on urban regeneration, sport should no longer be a drain on the capital’s economy and culture. The purpose of the new APPG is to and that the Olympic project should be a spur to this discuss how we can use major events to transform the ambition. lives of those who live in the surrounding areas. In So now east London is on the point of an agreement particular, the APPG will bring together the four between central and local government. This will have a major cities that have already hosted or will be hosting major positive impact on the skills and employment such events: Liverpool, which was the European cultural prospects of east Londoners, on the housing policy capital in 2008; Glasgow, which will host the 2014 changes needed to make east London a place where Commonwealth Games; Manchester, which hosted people can choose to stay and raise their families and the Commonwealth Games in 2002; and London, on investment in the public realm. It can be a place which will host the 2012 Olympic Games. I hope that where residents are proud to live and proud to show the APPG will provide your Lordships’ House with an visitors from across the world. opportunity to examine in greater detail the practical The Minister also began to understand that the work of social entrepreneurs. There is an important Olympic project was not the only show in town in the discussion to be had here about how you do legacy Lower Lea Valley and that the many other public in practice. 1207 Olympic Games 2012[LORDS] Olympic Games 2012 1208

1.03 pm well that there are no problems with accommodation. There is surplus available, to Olympic standards, at Lord Lucas: My Lords, I congratulate my noble two local universities—there is no requirement for any friend Lord Coe on obtaining this debate. I congratulate additional build. The perpetuation of these inaccuracies, him a great deal more on all that he has achieved for if I may kindly call them that, is due entirely to the the Olympics in the past three years. It has been a truly failure of LOCOG to publish the reports and indulge stupendous achievement. I apologise, therefore, that I in a proper, open debate on the conclusions that it has am going to devote my six minutes to the bits that I am reached. I wish it would: it is a stain on the otherwise not happy with. When I declare my interests as captain brilliant escutcheon of LOCOG that it chooses to act of the House of Lords rifle shooting team and a in this way. member of the NRA, my noble friend will know what is coming. Objections remain to the siting of the Olympic shooting at Woolwich. As far as I know, the safety My noble friend Lord Moynihan said that it was objections have not been met. The shotgun shooting crucial that the Games leave a sporting legacy throughout will spray lead shot over a wide area, much of it the United Kingdom. I am told that my noble friend currently occupied by housing. I do not know whether Lord Coe said that we should not waste money on it is proposed that people should be moved out of that temporary venues, that there ought to be legacy and housing for the duration, or that we should have that venues should be cost-effective. If he did not say enormous safety fences. I do not think that safety it, he should have done. Many other noble Lords fences would work: you would probably have to build today have mentioned legacy. Legacy is one of the a 60-metre sand barrier or something of the sort to foundation stones of the Olympic movement. Why, protect people from the shot. It is not clear how that then, does LOCOG persist in putting the shooting at will be dealt with. Nor is it clear how all the lead shot Woolwich and the horse riding at Greenwich? These will be cleared up afterwards, or what the costs will be, two venues will cost in excess of £100 million. Both notably in transport and landfill tax. It is not clear will be utterly destroyed immediately after the Games, that it is acceptable to block all entrances but one to leaving no legacy of any description. Alternative the local hospital at a time when there may be considerable venues outside London would cost tens of millions of need of it. There are real issues that must be dealt with pounds less and would leave permanent legacies for concerning the siting of the Games shooting at Woolwich, both sports. and even more so with the decision not to site it What my noble friend Lord Coe said on the subject at Bisley. in his opening remarks concerned the concept of a Shooting is as popular a sport in this country as compact Games. That is an important and powerful golf, but it has many fewer facilities. It is a wonderful concept, and I entirely agree that it is a noble and training for young men in particular, because it trains proper ambition. Indeed, the Greenwich site is so them in safety, concentration and self-discipline. Of compact that it will not be able to fit many spectators. all the Olympic sports, shooting is in most need of However, even the great virtues associated with a legacy. compact Games must at some stage bend before We have now reached the three-year point, when the disadvantages that they bring to the two sports reality must intervene over ambition. It is a time to be concerned here. open, face the truth and change tack, if that is necessary, My noble friend Lord Moynihan, when he contributed as I believe it is. As I said, my noble friend has to the debate on a Question that I asked in the House achieved great things. He does not deserve this blemish last week, mentioned the benefits of being part of the on his record. Olympic experience. My noble friend was involved, as I was, in rowing, which is a high-energy, convivial 1.10 pm sport, fuelled largely—and ahead of its time—by bioethanol. Shooting is not. It is a contemplative, Baroness Valentine: My Lords, I add my thanks careful sport. Self-control, self-discipline and concentration and congratulations to LOCOG and the ODA for the lie at the heart of it. People involved in shooting first-class job they are doing in preparing for the competitions will not participate in an Olympic experience Games. I remind noble Lords that I am chief executive before their competition has ended. Afterwards, they of London First, a non-profit-making business would love to join the party; but it is very much a membership organisation that actively supported the facing-inwards sport, and there is not much to be said London Olympic bid. Many of us supported our for siting them in an Olympic village until their competition country’s bid largely for the legacy. I will briefly mention is over. two legacy points before focusing on the core benefits to east London. Various objections have been raised to the proposed siting of the Olympic shooting at Bisley. We are told First, CompeteFor is the web portal developed to that these are based on reports prepared by KPMG promote contracts arising from the 2012 Games: 75,000 and others that have not been released. All that has UK businesses, mainly SMEs, are registered. Some been released is a series of half-truths and innuendos 3,000 opportunities have so far been placed on the that have made it extremely difficult for those involved system, but surprisingly only 80 by LOCOG itself. in shooting to raise reasonable arguments against the Will the noble Lord reaffirm LOCOG’s commitment proposals. The sort of things that are fed out are those to making Olympic opportunities available in this way? that the noble Lord, Lord Davies, repeated when he Secondly, I support and encourage the mayor and answered my Question. He said that there were problems Westminster Council’s efforts to improve the urban with providing accommodation. LOCOG knows perfectly realm in the West End ahead of 2012, part-funded by 1209 Olympic Games 2012[18 JUNE 2009] Olympic Games 2012 1210 the New West End Company.Refreshing central London’s Finally, who will sell the sizzle of the Lower Lea fabric will enhance our offer to visitors in 2012 and Valley? Who guides investors through the alphabet thereafter. In east London, I join my noble friend soup of agencies, rules, boundaries and landowners? Lord Mawson in stressing the need for the Games to Thirty years ago, the LDDC fulfilled this role in catalyse the wider regeneration of the Lower Lea Docklands. Now multiple organisations are falling Valley, which includes some of the country’s most over each other to offer parts of that role for the deprived wards. The area boasts industrial heritage Lower Lea Valley. They all need to agree to work and strong, diverse communities but also has under one roof, or accept referrals from a shared deprivation, low employment and physical degradation. one-stop shop. I remain optimistic. At three years to Transformation means improved transport, better go, London’s legacy planning is ahead of that of any connectivity, revitalised landscapes, cleaned up waterways recent Olympics, but we can do even better. and provides a countercyclical stimulus to the economy, supporting local employment. 1.15 pm From December to April, unemployment in Tower Lord Graham of Edmonton: My Lords, it is a joy Hamlets and Newham rose by around 20 per cent. and a pleasure to be given this opportunity to listen to That is a cause for despair normally; but the equivalent the noble Lord, Lord Coe, give a work-in-progress figures for both London and the UK are more than description of the bid, about which we were all so 30 per cent. The Olympics may already be cushioning delighted to hear some years ago. This is also an the recession’s impact. opportunity to hear noble Lords’ concerns. I do not Despite the downturn, London will grow by a have similar concerns. I am a joint president of London million people in the next 20 years, many housed in Councils with the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin of Roding, east London. We must invest for existing and new and the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee. Together, we communities to create a new city quarter. But so far speak on behalf of the councils with great temerity legacy has been on lips rather than at the boardroom from time to time. table. We need leadership, vision, infrastructure and a I wish to quote from a briefing that I asked for to one-stop shop for investors. First, as regards leadership, help me. The first paragraph states: the ODA is building Games facilities and LOCOG “Londoners are firmly behind the Olympic Games—but there will stage-manage the event, but a third leg is needed are still major areas to be addressed if the Games are to deliver for this stool. Who is arguing for an electricity meter the legacy that the capital’s residents want. London Councils’ in each of the athletes’ apartments rather than in each research demonstrates a high level of public optimism about the block, making them more legacy-ready? Amid the 2012 Olympics, whilst highlighting some key issues that the furore about the supposedly burgeoning Olympic budget, Government, LOCOG and other stakeholders need to address”. who advocates modest extra investment now to provide That is a reasonable statement and I see that the noble better value and better 30-year outcomes? Lord, Lord Coe, nods his head. I approach this matter But here comes the cavalry. I am pleased to welcome with a benign, not malevolent, attitude. The noble the noble Baroness, Lady Ford, into her new role as Lord, Lord Coe, will remember that the first two years chairman of the Olympic Park Legacy Company. of his undertaking his present role were fraught with Knowing the noble Baroness as I do, I am certain that difficulty, argument and some ridiculous statements. she will seize the challenge off-park as well as on, However, we have now reached the stage where I whatever her formal remit says. Without doubt she believe that most people in this country, if not all of will be a formidable champion. Her leadership can them, want the Games to be a success. What we need help to forge a common vision for what the Olympics to do to make them a success is, of course, open to can do for the East End. What might the Lea Valley be argument. in 30 years? A tourist destination? Green homes and My wife Margaret always told me that she never business, interspersed with allotments? An international forgot attending the 1948 Olympics, where she saw business quarter, built on fine transport links to the Maureen Gardner and Fanny Blankers-Koen and other continent? This vision should balance clarity of planning great runners. I remember living in Newcastle at the purpose with freedom to deliver and to change our time and seeing Arthur Wint and McDonald Bailey. policies if they do not work. The future should not There is a latent interest in and desire for sport in this depend on ongoing public subsidy but should be anchored country. Some speakers have talked about inspiration. around major private sector investment, like nearby That is what we have, especially after last year’s Olympic Stratford City, where the Westfield development is Games. I do not think that I spoke to anyone during anchored by high profile Waitrose and John Lewis those Olympics who was not imbued with enthusiasm. stores. People were disappointed if some of our champions My third point concerns infrastructure such as lost but they were given a taste of what the noble bridges, sewers, electricity, fast broadband and schools. Lord, Lord Coe, and his noble friend Lord Moynihan Without infrastructure, why should developers invest? must have enjoyed for many years. Why will businesses or families choose to locate here? I happen to be a founder member of the Lee Valley Surely the Department for Communities and Local Regional Park. I have scribbled down the name “Ron Government, the mayor and the five boroughs can Pickering”. I see the noble Lord, Lord Coe, smile align and prioritise funding around the Olympic Park because Ron Pickering was a great inspiration. You to maximise this one-off investment? As part of this get the idea that you are participating ever so slightly alignment, the London Homes and Communities Agency by watching an event or attending it. It is a marvellous needs freedom to achieve its goals more effectively by to say after an event, “I was there. I was part of it”. I commissioning infrastructure. think that everybody in the country wants to be able to 1211 Olympic Games 2012[LORDS] Olympic Games 2012 1212

[LORD GRAHAM OF EDMONTON] could be losing between £9 billion and £21 billion a say in 2012, almost regardless of the results, “I was year through lost contracts because of a lack of language there”. What they will bring to the table is enthusiasm, skills in the workforce, while survey after survey shows and I am delighted to hear the noble Baroness, Lady employers saying that they want to recruit people who Valentine, speak so cogently about the involvement, can speak more than one language. Various languages desire and support of business in this part of the programmes and projects are being rolled out in the world. run-up to the Olympics, but I would like to see them London Councils has, of course, asked me to raise much more closely aligned with what goes on at key a number of matters. I simply want the noble Lord, stages 3 and 4 in schools, in order to encourage and Lord Coe, to know that none of them will be fresh. incentivise more pupils to stick with languages. They will all be known to and have been argued with I would also like more of a sense of urgency in him. I have scribbled down these problems: whether LOCOG over planning for language services, particularly transport will be adequately dealt with, congestion, in identifying where to find the 300 professional inconvenience and security. That last concern was interpreters who will be needed. The assumption seems quite properly mentioned; I cannot believe that any to be that they will be people who have worked at point I raise is not already on the agenda of the noble previous Games or for the IOC. Although that is Lord, Lord Coe, and his committee. There is also a partly true, the age profile of English mother-tongue great point about additional resources. That is because interpreters is a serious concern, and there is a real London Councils is already contributing £625 million possibility that the needs of the 2012 Games might not to the bid, and it is concerned about the extra costs be met. The GLA also needs to be less complacent that it might have to pay. about where it will find the 1,000 language specialist It ought not to be taken for granted that London volunteers who are expected to help. Councils will simply absorb the costs that emerge. There needs to be some mechanism. It also wants the The official Olympic languages are English and legacy to be more clearly defined than it has been up French; additional working languages in 2012 will be to now. We know what legacy means, but the noble Arabic, German, Russian and Spanish. Teams from Lord, Lord Coe, and the Minister would do well to 205 countries will be here, so the number of actual pay attention as quickly as possible and say in detail, languages in use will run to dozens. The all-party “This is what the Games will bring”. We also need a group is supported by CILT, the National Centre for better sense of communicating what is going on to the Languages, which is working hard to help LOCOG general public, not just in London but in the country. I deliver a multilingual Games. For example, it is imagine that there is a job to be done, perhaps in the running a competition for 13 to 21 year-olds to make a second part of the six-year battle that has been going film clip about languages and the Olympics, which on, to make the people of London and of the country I understand that the noble Lord, Lord Coe, has better aware. agreed to judge. Another idea might be to tell 13 year-olds I am told by London Councils, from its research, in London schools now that if they commit to including that 44 per cent of Londoners want tickets for events. a foreign language in their GCSE option choices, In my mind, that is almost a sell-out whether they get they will be guaranteed a place in the 70,000-strong them or not; I am also told that there are 9 million volunteer force or, perhaps, could meet up with an tickets available for various events, so this is a massive international athlete of their choice who speaks that showpiece. Above all else, the noble Lord, Lord Coe, language. and his colleagues are capable of inspiring millions of From a business perspective, planning now is vital. people to feel better not only about the Olympics but Regional Language Network London is doing sterling about being in Britain, and I wish them well. work to help prepare businesses through its Welcoming the World programme. Help is available for businesses 1.22 pm that need to translate signage or brochures, or to train staff to deliver outstanding customer service to Baroness Coussins: My Lords, I am grateful for the international visitors. Transport, health and the emergency opportunity to raise the issue of modern foreign language services will all need language skills too. I ask LOCOG, skills, and their role in underpinning the quality, reputation the GLA, the Government and the Olympic Legacy and smooth running of the 2012 Games. I declare an Company to all look at whether they are doing enough interest as chair of the All-Party Group on Modern now to get information about these resources to businesses, Languages, which aims to promote the benefit of particularly SMEs. languages in education, skills, employment, competition and culture. The Olympic Games have all those, rolled We do those in the next generation a great disservice into one great big opportunity not just for improving if we allow language skills to diminish, because they delivery of the event itself but as part of the continuing will most certainly lose out to their multilingual peers economic and social legacy. from other EU countries who will be at a competitive As many noble Lords will know, the stereotyped advantage in the job market, whether they want to be image of British people being bad at languages and doctors, hotel receptionists, retailers, tour guides or reluctant to learn is, sadly, reflected in the dramatically sports coaches. What is more, learning and speaking reduced numbers of young people opting for languages other languages is fun; it gives pleasure and a great at GCSE despite London and, indeed, elsewhere in the feeling of achievement. What better match could there UK being richly multilingual communities. At the be than sport and the Olympic Games for showcasing same time, research indicates that the UK economy what we can do? 1213 Olympic Games 2012[18 JUNE 2009] Olympic Games 2012 1214

1.27 pm Inspire mark—a version of the 2012 brand. The most exciting project in the north-east is one which links Lord Bates: My Lords, I shall focus my contribution 2012 with getting people active and healthy to avoid to the debate on the north-east of England. I declare type-2 diabetes, of which there is a high incidence in interests as being a resident and in having businesses the north-east of England. up there, and in having a great interest in and passion for that great region of this country. I pay tribute to At the handover from Beijing, 22 special 2012 flags my noble friend Lord Coe for his inspirational leadership produced by LOCOG were raised in town halls across of this whole project. the region and 38 cultural events were held as part of the open weekend in September. We are now working It is one of the less endearing qualities of the on the London 2012 Open Weekend. In all these British temperament always to complain about the matters, some outstanding work is going on—not rain without giving thanks for the sunshine. When I least by Jonathan Edwards who is a leading figure in had the opportunity to visit LOCOG’s offices down at the north-east and carries great credibility in drawing Canary Wharf, I was shown the great work going on attention to the region and making sure that it is not at the Olympic site, which is absolutely spectacular. left out of London 2012. Knowing that he is a major We tend to hear of things only when they go wrong part of the Olympics gives us a great deal of confidence. and forget to celebrate things when they go well. It is I should also point out that a great deal of work wonderful to be party to this debate and to pay tribute is being undertaken by the Nations and Regions to all of those involved in ensuring that it is going Group. There is a co-ordinator for 2012 under One extremely well. I also pay tribute to the noble Baroness, North East. Lady Campbell of Loughborough, on her maiden speech. As someone who only recently gave a maiden The Olympic motto is, “Faster, higher, stronger”, speech in your Lordships’ House, while mine was and perhaps I may conclude with some suggestions as instantly forgettable her contribution will endure in to how we could do more. First, there is the economy. the memory much longer—and rightly so, because it Some £6 billion of contracts are to be awarded. There was inspiring. is a real concern, particularly given the economic downturn, that regional businesses, including construction My focus on the north-east of England is in its businesses, are not necessarily aware of the opportunities having some heritage behind it in its sporting traditions. that are there. More could be done. Not only has it produced some outstanding Olympians and athletes—Jonathan Edwards, Steve Cram and My second point relates to volunteers. This has Brendan Foster—but it is the home of the athletics already been referred to in the debate. There will be stadium in Gateshead and of the Great North Run, 70,000 volunteers taking part. It would be great to see the most popular half-marathon in the world, which many volunteers coming from all the English regions, regularly attracts more than 50,000 participants. That particularly from the north-east. cultural part and that sporting heritage are extremely My final point relates to the cultural aspect of the important. Olympiad. There is a great opportunity to promote For understandable reasons, the Games are awarded the culture of the north-east of England and to have to a city rather than a country. That can sometimes great cultural events. As someone who has for a long mean that people in peripheral regions can think it is time been associated with a campaign to return the nothing to do with them and that this is a London Lindisfarne Gospels to their home in Durham Cathedral, show. I had been a bit guilty of thinking that until I there to be reunited with the bones of St Cuthbert, I had the opportunity to visit the offices of LOCOG believe that 2012 should have a landmark cultural and receive an excellent presentation on what is happening event. It is time for the Government to undo the in the north-east and, I am sure, in many regions injustice by which the gospels were removed from the around the UK. north-east during the dissolution of the monasteries under Henry VIII and return them to the region. That In the north-east, 220 schools and colleges are would set a great example by bringing together tourism registered in Get Set, LOCOG’s education programme, and highlighting the fact that the Games are not just to take the Olympic and Paralympic values into the about London—this is actually about the whole country. classroom. Twenty sporting facilities in the north-east It would also grasp the attention and imagination of have been included as potential pre-Games training the people of the north-east. I commend that idea to camps in LOCOG’s official guide, which has been the House. circulated to all foreign teams, 200 national Olympic committees and 165 national Paralympic committees. These include the Tees Barrage, which the noble Lord, 1.35 pm Lord Coe, had the opportunity of visiting last year. It Baroness Ford: My Lords, as the last Back-Bencher is a spectacular facility. They also include Hartlepool to speak, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Coe, on Marina, the Glenn McCrory International School of securing this important debate. I also congratulate Boxing, and one should not forget the great Gateshead the noble Lord, Lord Bates, on his ingenuity in International Stadium. One live site is already in place working the Lindisfarne Gospels into a debate on the in the region in Middlesbrough. A live site is, I have Olympics and Paralympics. He is continuing a strong discovered, a place where large screens will be erected, tradition in this House in that regard. I, too, very so that people can view the Olympics. much welcome the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, Seven Inspire projects have been given the go-ahead whose accomplishments are legion and whose maiden in the north-east. These are local or regional projects speech today could not have been more welcome or on inspired by 2012 which have been given LOCOG’s a more appropriate topic. If her speech is a sign of 1215 Olympic Games 2012[LORDS] Olympic Games 2012 1216

[BARONESS FORD] The legacy company, together with the five host things to come, she will be an enormous addition to boroughs and the very active voluntary sector in east your Lordships’ House. I hope that she and I will London, will play a crucial role in turning these become close allies. commitments into reality. Although my writ runs only Just over half way through our preparations, it is to the boundaries of the park, in reality we cannot fantastic to see the amazing work taking place in the simply redevelop the park without clear links to the Olympic park. I had the pleasure of visiting the park surrounding neighbourhoods and without clear reference again last week and marvelled at the breathtakingly to the wider plans for the Lower Lea Valley. The noble efficient way that the ODA, under the able leadership Baroness, Lady Valentine, has been a steadfast advocate of John Armitt and David Higgins, are completing an for this type of approach and we are working carefully incredibly complex task. The big build is most certainly to ensure that the legacy master plan that is currently in great shape. I also know that LOCOG will stage in preparation achieves this. The master plan is crucial a great Games and the noble Lords, Lord Coe and because it will guide local people, public authorities Lord Moynihan, have given us a very clear sense of and private investors for many years to come about that today. how the park and its wider surroundings will be redeveloped, about the level of our ambition, and However, as the noble Baroness, Lady Valentine, about, if I may steal a phrase from UK Sport, a “no said, there are three legs to this stool, and I want to compromise” approach to quality and sustainability. focus on the Olympic legacy. I declare my interest as Between now and Christmas we will sharpen our the newly appointed chair of the Olympic Park Legacy thinking about this important master plan. I particularly Company. I should like to reassure the noble Lord, want to build on and connect with some of the fantastic Lord Clement-Jones, that the issues of running-cost work done by local groups in that area of east London, budgets and an adequate capital budget for the company about which the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, has told are very much alive and under discussion with the us on many occasions, so that the final plan makes Government. I have been given absolutely every perfect sense to the sporting community but primarily encouragement to believe that we have been given the to those people, particularly young people, whose lives tools to do that job, which will be completed quite are likely to be most affected by it. quickly. Many issues have been raised by noble Lords I would like to have spoken for longer today about about the legacy. Rather than taking up more time, I the legacy lessons that we can learn from the Great should like to offer all noble Lords who are interested Exhibition of 1851 and what happened in South an opportunity for an early meeting to update them Kensington and Exhibition Road. After the Great on the progress of the Olympic Park Legacy Company Exhibition, of course, the Crystal Palace was relocated and to take on board a number of their concerns. from Hyde Park to its current location. We have many In Singapore four years ago, when London’s bid lessons to learn from the Great Exhibition about the was presented to the IOC, the focus on young people magnificent educational and cultural legacy that it left and legacy was inspirational. I defy anyone who saw for London. It took the formidable Prince Albert the film that accompanied the bid to say that they 40 years to get that right. It will take us probably failed to be moved by it. The IOC found it totally about the same length of time, but we must not have compelling. A major part of the job is to make sure any less ambition for our project than Prince Albert that the legacy we promised gets delivered. had for the Great Exhibition in 1851. The 2012 Games must create a transformational A task for the legacy company will be to use all the legacy for east London, creating a new neighbourhood park’s assets to create a unique living park of sporting for the city, reconnecting communities, creating sustainable and recreational excellence that is a magnet for visitors, jobs, encouraging enterprise, particularly social a boon for the economy, a showcase for sustainability enterprise—the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, drew attention and a focus for performance. It must be a precious and to this—and providing new homes, all in one of the loved asset for local people and a new piece of our most disadvantaged areas of the United Kingdom. city that is fully integrated into the surrounding Clearly, the Games will leave a powerful legacy for neighbourhoods. The task will be a long one—as I sport, with five new world-class venues in east London, said, it took Prince Albert’s royal commission 40 years— many more venues across the UK and a fabulous and it will require commitment and investment from boost for the participation of people of all ages. The partners in the public, private and voluntary sectors. park itself and our magnificent stadium—a living But the legacy that we must leave for sport, for east stadium—should provide a major attraction for local London and for the wider community will be enjoyed people and visitors eager to continue to celebrate the for generations to come. That legacy must live up to Games and to continue their interest in sport long and surpass the promises made to the IOC, because after the 2012 Games are over. It will have athletics at those promises were made to the people of east London its core, so that London can continue to attract the themselves. best talent from around the world to come and compete here. I say to the noble Lord, Lord St John of Bletso, 1.42 pm that it is by no means a foregone conclusion that the stadium will be taken down in the way that has been Lord Addington: My Lords, this is one of those suggested. We are simply working through options. debates where the cliché that everything has been said There are smarter things to do with the stadium. I but not everybody has said it comes ringingly to mind. should like to consult widely with the sporting community I feel that it has been as good a broad-brush approach to get to that point. to everybody involved in the Olympics as you will get 1217 Olympic Games 2012[18 JUNE 2009] Olympic Games 2012 1218 virtually anywhere. Almost every aspect of the Games and that new Commonwealth Games and new sporting and their unique legacy has been represented in your events are tied into the same sort of structure, making Lordships’ House. When I first saw the plans and sure that there is an ongoing legacy for all of them? model for London 2012, I realised that, if the Games The idea is bigger than the Olympic park and it is that went ahead, there would be virtually no downside for idea that must carry on. The fact that we can get the physical space that they went into. Having lived in government engagement with sporting activity is much a flat fairly close to it, I always felt that the area had more important even than this event. We must take it some potential, but mainly as a set for the more on from there. unpleasant type of second-rate gangster movie or a I think that it was Ken Livingstone who expected film about an apocalyptic future. Some people will tell X number of years of argument and screaming, with a me that I missed something very nice, but I did not see wonderful party for the Olympics at the end. I forget it. It was somewhere that needed investment; it had the exact phrase. We have got rid of most of the to come. arguments, but I now address the one running sore I have tried to generate a degree of passion in about the Olympics: Bisley. I do not know exactly speaking about the idea of the Olympic Games as what was said in the document that rejected Bisley as a something that brings everything together. The noble permanent site, but I have tabled a Question to find Baroness, Lady Campbell, whom I welcome to the out. I ask the two noble Lords who will be at the House, has topped anything that I could say today Olympic Board meeting today to ask the board please with the idea of sport as something that can give focus to publish this information and come back with it so and meaning to lives and as something to aspire to, that we can find out. I fully accept that there may be look back on and support. The whole way through, good reasons for rejecting Bisley, but the noble Lords the idea of a sporting legacy focuses particularly on who have spoken today deserve to know what they are, the elite but, if it is really to succeed, it must be far even though they may not agree with them. I have broader. That is something that the Games have already always felt that as many events as possible should be achieved. They have already made people in government, held within the main park and that they should be other than those already in touch, consider sport held outside only if this cannot be done. Everybody properly. deserves to know the reasons. I encourage those noble As one who had this portfolio for many years, Lords who are yet to speak to ask about this. The before the Olympics were taken on board, I distinctly noble Lord, Lord Davies, of course has a huge advantage. got the impression that people thought, “Sport’s an If we get a good answer, I will remove the Question awfully good thing, but it’s nothing to do with me”. It that I have tabled for a week today. We can carry on was pushed aside. However, when the Department of and deal with this problem, but it is one of the few Health has publications that mention the Olympics in outstanding matters to do with the construction. its physical activity agenda, suddenly the Olympics The ODA deserves much credit for having made the have already achieved something important. I think building of the Olympic park quite boring. We are on that the Minister for Sport should be in the Department time and within budget. We are ahead of budget. It is of Health, if not heading up his own ministry, with his working. I wonder how many journalists sat there with own seat in the Cabinet. Regardless of how well the their practised themes of “Waste of money” and “We committees and odd connections within government can’t organise anything” in a huge run-up to decrying work at the moment, I would like there to be a our achievement. They cannot do it. If they could, stronger sports—or, indeed, Olympic—presence, with politicians might have had a slightly easier time over a department backing it up directly. It should be the last few weeks because it would have absorbed attached to the Cabinet Office, with civil servants from their energy, but they have not. The ODA has delivered the DCMS and the Department of Health, and it more or less everything so far on time and within should have education connections. Things may be budget. working now, but any chain is only as strong as its weakest link and it would be very easy to break that I also encourage the Olympic movement as a whole chain with a little political pressure here and there. not to be frightened of admitting it when one or two things go wrong, as they will. We should remember Much of what we are talking about in the Olympics’ that 75 per cent in any exam is still a damned good ability to achieve a legacy will be to do with how far pass. I ask those involved to engage more with us in they go beyond their immediate groups. As I said, any the political scene, as we have had to dig out too much original thought here was immediately trumped by information. I have had that discussion—or occasional everybody who spoke before me, but I have come to row—with the Olympic movement and I say again: let the conclusion that this should be mentioned. The us know more about what is going on. noble Lord, Lord Mawson, got there before me. He said that the Olympic Games are being held here only Can the noble Lord, Lord Davies, tell us how much as a result of the Commonwealth Games in Manchester, encouragement is being given to sporting bodies to which proved that Britain, after several quite spectacular increase their legacy participation rates? Are models failures and mismanagements, could deliver a major being prepared and, if so, which are the best ones to project on time and make it a success. Other major take forward? Have they gone in-house or outside? I projects have occurred and others will, but how do we have spoken about this subject on numerous occasions. tie them in? This is probably one of the few questions The noble Lord, Lord Davies, and I can probably that I can fairly deliver to the noble Lord, Lord banter about what is going on here but there are some Davies. What are the Government doing to make sure extremely good models. Once again, I mention the Go that we have something that is ongoing, beyond 2012, Play Rugby programme. Get Into Football is another 1219 Olympic Games 2012[LORDS] Olympic Games 2012 1220

[LORD ADDINGTON] appointments relating to the Olympics have been made? good scheme; it is less focused but more general. What If not, why not? This is an important point because are the best models for these sports to take outside? the Government regard the delivery of the safety and Which ones have worked best in the past and which do security strategy for the Olympics as very much the the Government think have the best development potential delegated responsibility of the ODA and LOCOG. I outside the Olympics? If we know that, we can encourage have been hearing concerns that the specifications for Ministers and hold them to task. We need to ensure the security projects of these organisations, which that there is continuation of effort and that those who were set following a threat assessment by the Centre are encouraging people to back up the legacy in terms for the Protection of National Infrastructure, are not of involvement have a model to work to. Can the being adhered to. Is that true or is it perhaps a “not noble Lord reassure us on that point? yet” situation? Finally, the Olympics seem to be shaping up to be a I should also like the Minister to say whether the tremendous success. Let us enjoy that success, having delay in producing the safety and security strategy got involved with the entire process leading up to it, means that there is less time for embedding security and then make sure that the ideas are lasting and are and resilience technologies at Olympic sites. There will taken forward to the next project, or aim and objective. of course have to be a reliance on a large number of If they are not, we will be throwing away at least some police officers coming in from around the country. We of the legacy. already know that the Metropolitan Police will be under significant stress, with each borough having to 1.52 pm accept a 2.5 per cent reduction in policing 12 months prior to and six months after the Games. The Lord Luke: My Lords, first, I must mention my Metropolitan Police Authority has to recruit 10,000 extra father, who, with the late Lord Exeter, as members of specials to compensate for this extraction. Can the the International Olympic Committee, struggled for Minister say what progress it has made? My concern, many years to try to bring the Olympics back to if many officers have to be brought in from outside Britain. How proud he would have been of the efforts London, is that there will be little capability to meet and success of my noble friend, whom I thank for any—although of course one hopes that there will not introducing this important debate. I congratulate him be any—attacks outside the Olympic areas. Also, what on his leadership and his impressive and continuing about the security of the sailing events at Weymouth enthusiasm for the cause. I also congratulate from and, indeed, the rowing at Eton? these Benches the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, on her excellent maiden speech. I look forward to hearing A related issue is the Government’s security budget her in the future. for the Games. Senior police officers have expressed concern that security costs will escalate beyond the I applaud all those delivering the Games for their £600 million allocated, pushing the entire Olympic successes in the development of the Olympic village budget over the £10 billion mark. Can the Minister say and other Olympic sites—in particular, the outstanding what the £600 million set aside by the Government and ongoing transformation of the Lower Lea Valley. actually includes? Does it, for example, include the In addition, I state the obvious: policy on the Olympics cost of deploying not only the police but all other is not Tory, Labour or Liberal but British. We on the emergency responders? What is the true cost likely opposition Benches have a responsibility to hold the to be? Government to account for the decisions that they make. We should support and encourage those concerned Despite that, I have no doubt that we will deliver an when we believe that they are doing the right thing, excellent Olympic park. The build will be completed but we should also probe and challenge when we on time and construction of the venues by the Olympic believe that there is room for improvement. Delivery Authority is on track. In addition, as my noble friend Lord Coe said, organisation of the Games As we all know, parts of the journey towards 2012 by LOCOG is on track to raise the £2 billion needed to have not been straightforward. The Government’s budget stage the Games; it has, this week, signed up its 20th miscalculations are common knowledge: the budget commercial sponsor. Surely the Olympics will attract a has soared from approximately £2.3 billion to £9.3 billion, great number of tourists and it is hoped that our leading to unprecedented raids on good-causes money Olympic teams will be successful as well. from the National Lottery; over half the contingency fund has already been spent delivering only a third of One major thing for which the Government are the Olympic programme; there have been funding cuts responsible is the legacy, but so far they do not seem to to sports such as shooting and water polo due to the be achieving very much. The Olympics were won on a £50 million shortfall brought about by the Government’s commitment to use the Games to inspire a whole failure to raise a single penny from the private sector; generation to take up sport. Nearly four years on, the and, most significantly, there is a continuing absence Government have yet to deliver any coherent plans to of a fully costed, and probably extremely expensive, deliver this mass-participation sports legacy. security plan. My noble friend Lord Patten had some Does the Minister share the opinion of my noble extremely effective questions on security, which I hope friend Lord Moynihan that participation in sport is the Minister will be able to answer. tremendously important to society, especially to the In February this year, the Home Office produced young and especially in the light of recent statistics the safety and security strategy for the 2012 Games. that show that children now spend just two hours per Now that the strategy has been in place for four week playing sport, compared with the 45 hours per months, can the Minister say whether all key security week that they spend in front of a television or computer 1221 Olympic Games 2012[18 JUNE 2009] Olympic Games 2012 1222 screen? The Government’s own statistics predict that, from the fact that the vast majority of contributors to by 2050, 90 per cent of schoolchildren will be overweight. this debate have followed the noble Lord, Lord Coe, in Participation in sport has the ability to change social his opening presentation, exemplifying optimism with patterns, improve health and transform lives. The likes regard to the future and genuine and proper pride in of double Olympic gold medal sailor Sarah Ayton what has been achieved already. That is the prevailing OBE and double Olympic gold medal swimmer Rebecca tone of this debate. Adlington OBE pay testament to this fact. It would be criminal to deny such brilliant opportunities to the Of course, there are issues still to be resolved and rest of British youth, especially when, through the we have to address ourselves to the points of criticism. Olympics, we have such potential for positive exposure I will attempt to meet the most forceful and important and state-of-the-art facilities at our disposal around of those as I develop my speech, but I want this debate the country. My noble friend Lord Bates emphasised to be recognised for what it is—one which displays all the multifarious activities in the north-east of England. hope and genuine confidence with regard to the future, based on some extraordinary achievements since the Apart from the mass-participation legacy, there is bid was won a few years ago. That is why I appreciated also the issue of delivering a physical legacy for each the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Bates, Olympic sport. It has become clear that this will not be that it all too easy to suffuse ourselves with criticism. I delivered in every case—for example, in shooting and recognise that the Opposition has a duty to put the equestrianism. Every person in the UK is contributing Government under scrutiny, but it ill behoves us to to the £9.3 billion public sector budget for the regeneration undersell achievement when in fact achievement is of east London, which is why the Olympics must what we need to present to the nation. benefit people throughout the country as well. A sporting legacy is not just an aspiration. It is a matter We have made very significant progress, as reflected of basic fairness, both to Londoners living near the in this debate. The noble Lord, Lord Coe, covered Olympic park and to people who do not happen to live most of the ground that I would otherwise have felt near the new facilities that are being built. obliged to cover in terms of achievements. All five Can the Minister confirm that, in the equestrian major venues—the stadium, the aquatic centre, the events in Greenwich Park, there will be no moving or Olympic village, the velopark, the international cutting down of trees? There is a rumour going round broadcasting centre—are under construction, either that they are all going to be moved or removed altogether. on or ahead of schedule. I know that at present the site I hope that that will not be the case. What plans are in has a rather daunting blue fence around it, keeping place to make sure that, once the athletes’ village has out all comers except those authorised for entry. It is a been sold off, money is ring-fenced so that taxpayers construction site, so of course it presents that face. But can see the maximum return on their investment? once construction has moved ahead, we will be on the What extra efforts are being made to seek buyers in the brink of developing an Olympic park which will be first instance? For example, I understand that there is the glory of that part of London and will match the still no anchor tenant for the Olympic stadium. glories of our great parks in London, which were Overall, I am afraid, this paints a sad picture of the bequeathed to us in centuries past in different importance that the Government place on their legacy circumstances and socioeconomic conditions. Let us responsibilities, evidenced by their lack of concrete recognise the size of this potential achievement and progress. Can the Minister tell the House what advances appreciate the work that has been done. have been made to drive a genuine grass-roots legacy Let us particularly appreciate the contribution of for sport off the back of the 2012 Games? The 2012 the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, in her maiden Olympic and Paralympic Games give the whole nation speech. She comes to us, as we all know, with very enormous opportunities for progress in so many areas. substantial achievements with regard to sport. I have Let us hope that they can be exploited to the full. not the slightest doubt that she will make a contribution which we will all value in the future. Today she emphasised 2.02 pm the importance of the development of sport in schools. Of course it is right that our biggest legacy to the next The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, generation will be enthusiasm and opportunity for Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs sport. That means in schools now we must use the (Lord Davies of Oldham): My Lords, the noble Lord, Olympic Games as the inspiration and, for the future, Lord Luke, used the word “sad” in his summing-up—a we must commit to ensuring that sufficient resources singularly inappropriate stance when we look at the are made available for schoolchildren to get a requisite progress that has been made since London won the amount of sport. right to host the summer Olympic and Paralympic Games. The noble Lord, Lord Coe, led the team The Government are proud of their record in these whose inspired presentation won the bid against what terms, and we are pleased to be associated with the we all regarded at the time to be the odds in Singapore. considerable work that the noble Baroness has done in It is difficult to believe that four years have passed promoting this necessity, which was reflected in her since then and we are only three years away from the speech. Not only do I agree with everything she said, I Games coming back to London. also want to bring to the House’s attention that school Progress has been made. Although I listened carefully sport will be celebrated across the country at the end to what the noble Lord, Lord Luke, said, and one or of this month. Over 10,000 schools are taking part in two other critics of certain aspects of the progress and National School Sport Week. This is only the second development of the Games, I take sustenance and joy time that we have done this and it is a reflection of the 1223 Olympic Games 2012[LORDS] Olympic Games 2012 1224

[LORD DAVIES OF OLDHAM] London bid won by London. There are bound to be fact that we are catching the imagination of schoolchildren compromises and difficult decisions. The decision on and also providing the opportunities for them to play which I have been challenged most vigorously today is their full part. one that we reached on the basis of very careful I want to mention in this context how important it research and on judgments that will stand the test is that we awaken the enthusiasm of children and of time. adults in the locality. I am grateful to the right reverend A number of other points were raised. First my Prelate the Bishop of Chelmsford for emphasising the noble friend Lord Pendry and then the noble Lord, fact that the boroughs immediately adjacent to the Lord Bates, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop Olympic site have a great deal to contribute in terms of of Chelmsford raised the question of voluntary support their welcome. I bear in mind the point he made about for the Games. We need 70,000 volunteers. It is absolutely the number of languages which are spoken and that clear that we hope to attract a substantial number the welcome could be given in those terms. I accept from the local boroughs, making their contribution to entirely what the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, says the celebration of an event happening in their area, about how important it is that we put emphasis on but we will need volunteers from all across the country. language training and skills. We must have those available We will certainly need volunteers who display the when the world comes to London in 2012, and that language skills mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady was an important and insightful contribution. Coussins. That work must go ahead. I emphasise that I recognise that there are several pinch points, the we are fully charged of the necessity of involving the sharpest of which was introduced by my noble friend country in those opportunities. Lord Corbett and referred to by the noble Lord, Lord The Games are the London Games, but there are Lucas, on the question of Bisley. I answered a Question opportunities for the country in voluntary support from the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, about why Woolwich and—the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Clement- has been chosen against Bisley. It is on the basis of a Jones—tourism. Of course we want large numbers of carefully researched report. I do not want to reiterate tourists coming to London, but we want to capitalise all the various points again, particularly as the noble on that by ensuring that people who have come from Lord made it fairly clear that he was not convinced by all over the world appreciate the other joys of the my argument. United Kingdom and its tourist opportunities beyond London. That means that we have to make strenuous Have the Government got anything to hide with efforts to upgrade our tourist facilities as much as we regard to the KPMG report, which was the basis for can. We have to increase our marketing. We must see the decision in favour of Woolwich? No. That has that 2012 is a unique opportunity for the tourist been made quite clear in the other place by my right industry and of course the Government will play honourable friend Tessa Jowell in her role as the our full part in helping the industry to realise those Olympics Minister. When we can publish that report benefits. without compromising sensitive, ongoing commercial negotiations, we intend to do so. We have not the The noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, while modestly slightest hesitation about making sure that that report recognising the successes of those who have contributed is published in due course, but in everything, there is directly towards the development of the structure of an evaluation about competing commercial opportunities. the Olympic Games, was a little carping about finance. That is why we cannot release the report at present. He knows very well that the financial failure is not a matter of government finance, it is not the plans that we have had for contribution from the lottery; it is Lord Lucas: My Lords, what commercial danger private industry which has not been able to produce could in any sense come from publishing the Government’s the resources that we had hoped. That is not entirely costings relating to Bisley, as they have no current surprising when the United Kingdom, as is the rest of intent of proceeding in that direction? the world, is suffering grievously in recession at present. I was grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Valentine, Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I will look at for saying that in that part of London, the impact of that particular section. I was talking about the KPMG the recession has been cushioned by development for report in general. If the noble Lord is saying that there the Games. I emphasise that there is a very substantial is value in one particular section being published, that amount of activity associated with the development may or may not be possible. The point is that the for the Games in east London. I also emphasise that judgment was arrived at knowing full well the obvious the Olympic Games budget looks relatively healthy. I claims of Bisley. That is true of other sports. The same know that noble Lords will identify those marginal issues obtain with regard to Greenwich and the horse- elements where there are weaknesses, but the £9.325 billion, riding events. Of course, we all know Badminton and which has been the subject of constant scrutiny ever Burghley. We know that we have existing facilities since it was established as the budget, remains on considerable distances away from London. target. The Games remain on target to come within that figure. What has to be balanced is the fact that these are the London Games, won by London as a city against other competing cities. There is obviously, therefore, Lord Moynihan: My Lords, just for clarification, I an intention to concentrate as much of the Games as am sure the Minister did not intend to suggest that possible within the confines of London, as close to the funding Team GB and making sure that it is Olympic village as possible. That is for the benefit of comprehensively prepared for both the Olympic and spectators and athletes and reflects the fact that it is a Paralympic Games was marginal to the budget. 1225 Olympic Games 2012[18 JUNE 2009] Iraq 1226

Lord Davies of Oldham: No, my Lords. I am “the transformation that has taken place in the Lower Lea Valley emphasising that there is no cause for concern about is nothing short of astounding and this area will be a great legacy the budgetary support for the Games and the ability for the people of London and the UK”. of the Games to fall within the budget provision. Nor That is a judgment three years before we mount the is there any cause for pessimism about the position of greatest sporting spectacle that the world anticipates the Games in this recessionary period in relation to every four years. We shall have every confidence that the local economy. The contracts are being handed that is exactly what we are going to do. out. Considerable progress is being made. To take the most obvious thing locally, there is a significant, multi- 2.22 pm million pound investment in the area, which will guarantee Lord Coe: My Lords, when the founding father of one dimension of the legacy that will not be directly the Olympic movement, Baron Pierre de Coubertin, attributable to the Games but would never have occurred mapped that seamless path between sport, culture and if that uplift in the east London economy were not education 120 years ago, he was right then and he is occurring because of the Games. The Games are right today. He would have been heartened by the creating thousands of jobs, along with apprenticeships quality of the debate that has dignified this place over and training places, just at that time that we need them the past few hours. most. Significant numbers are coming from the locality, but that also reflects a significant investment injection It was a wonderful debate. It contained passion and into London. Westfield is investing £1.5 billion in the insight and, if I may so, the questions, and the forensic Stratford City retail-led development adjacent to the nature of those questions, were of the highest order. It Olympic park. is normally the province of the Minister, but with leave of the House I will, if it is thought to be reasonable, This is therefore a developing picture of considerable write separately to noble Lords about the specific success in what the Games can represent for the local issues that were raised, particularly around the organising economy, as well as their greater significance for the and staging of the Games. wider economy. Of course, I have listened carefully It would be remiss of me not to join noble Lords in to the issues raised about legacy, which are very the compliments that were paid to the noble Baroness, important for the Games. I am grateful that the position Lady Campbell of Loughborough, for a very fine that my noble friend Lady Ford holds gave her the maiden speech—the first of many, I hope. I am delighted opportunity to assure the House on those matters. also to be joined in this place by my former university There is not the slightest doubt that we are better tutor. placed to fulfil a legacy from the Games than any It would be remiss of me to alight upon any speeches Games of recent years. in particular, but I think the noble Lord, Lord Graham The example of Barcelona has been quoted, quite of Edmonton, summed it up when he said that the rightly, because that is the best example of the past bulk of people in this country want this project to be a two or three decades, if not longer. London can easily success. He also said “I want to be there”. I can do no surpass that legacy on the basis of the very careful better than echo those words. I beg leave to withdraw preparations we are making, both in terms of the the Motion. physical position and in terms of the legacy with regard to sport and the participation of our people. Motion withdrawn. With regard to the physical legacy, I heard what the noble Lord, Lord St. John of Bletso, said. It is the case Iraq that we have not as yet identified who will take on the Debate Olympic stadium. As he knows, the stadium will be reduced in size from its Games position of over 2.24 pm 80,000 down to a capacity of 25,000. That rules out Moved By Lord Fowler certain kinds of legacy. You will not get Premier League clubs interested in a stadium of that size. To call attention to the Iraq invasion and lessons There are a whole range of possible legatees, however, for the future; and to move for Papers. who will be willing to sign a contract. We do not have great anxieties with regard to the facilities in those Lord Fowler: My Lords, it is fairly unusual to have terms. We are of course taking care to make sure that two dozen speakers for the second debate on a Thursday the Olympic park and its surroundings provide one afternoon but it shows the importance that this House of the great legacies for the nation and for London places on the issues involved. The only sadness is that in particular. we have so little time to explore them. I take on board all the criticisms that have been There are many questions which arise in this debate voiced today. We will look at those with the greatest but let me start on a point where there is unity throughout degree of care. I would, however, like to make an this House. That is to praise the courage and obvious point that perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Coe, professionalism of the British troops who have fought was too modest to make in his opening speech. When and have been under fire in Iraq over the past six years. the International Olympic Committee’s co-ordinating Their effort and dedication has been magnificent, part commission visited London two months ago, it came of which I saw for myself when I visited Basra last to assess the progress that we have made. The commission’s year. I saw then everything I wanted to see, given the chair, Denis Oswald, said that, security position at the time, and was certainly able to 1227 Iraq[LORDS] Iraq 1228

[LORD FOWLER] have been living in Syria for the past few years. We put all the questions that I wanted to ask. I thank the need to face the fact that there are people there who Ministry of Defence for that opportunity, although have no intention of returning to Iraq. They have I have to admit that on one occasion I was helped nothing to return to. Their memories are memories of by an unaccountable rumour that I was in fact the murder and of violence. They are the survivors of First Sea Lord. torture and of kidnapping. They are men and women The truth is that the invasion of Iraq was deadly who have been persecuted for their religious beliefs. serious in intent and deadly serious in its impact. The That is why a resettlement programme in other countries price that was paid for the invasion was extraordinarily is being organised by the United Nations refugee high. One hundred and seventy-nine British service agency. We need to know whether Britain is playing its men and women have been killed and several hundred full part in this. The evidence from Syria was not others badly or severely injured. The number of Iraqi encouraging. Our help in resettlement was not only dead has been much greater. At a conservative estimate, behind the United States, which is to be expected, but the figure is 100,000 but many would put it much behind Canada, Australia, Sweden and the Netherlands. higher. Many of those killed were also tortured and We need to know whether we are meeting our obligations. the reign of terror has had a traumatic effect on In essence, we now need closure on a political decision ordinary Iraqi lives—so traumatic that an estimated that by any measure has bitterly divided this country. 2 million refugees sought shelter in surrounding countries That was why I initiated a debate in this House 18 months such as Syria, Jordan and Lebanon, while another ago, calling for an inquiry and saying that I knew of, 2 million sought refuge elsewhere in Iraq itself. The “no other way that the lessons from this conflict can be learnt”.— war created the worst refugee crisis in the Middle East [Official Report, 24/1/08; col. 338.] since 1948. That is why, four weeks ago, I tabled the Motion that Of course, there have also been gains. A new democracy is being debated today. is, one hopes, emerging. The internal security position has, one hopes, permanently improved. Certainly, the In one very substantial way, the story has moved brutal regime of Saddam Hussein has been replaced. on, with the Government at long last conceding the We need to weigh those advances against the price that case for an inquiry; so the crucial question today is not has been paid. There is no agreement on whether they whether there should be an inquiry but whether the justify the action that was taken. inquiry that the Prime Minister announced on Monday meets the widespread and legitimate public concern. The decision to go to war in Iraq was almost In my judgment, it does not; it is in essence a political certainly the most controversial political decision taken response, and as such it runs the risk of satisfying in post-war years. Many opposed the invasion from no one. the outset. They took part in the massive demonstrations in London and elsewhere and they maintain that What has the Prime Minister said? He said on opposition to this day. Others—and I was one of Monday that the proceedings will be held in private, them—supported the action that was taken and relied which he justified; that there should be no attempt to on the information provided by the Government. What “apportion blame”; that the committee should include unites us today is the need to know the truth about the no senior military figures and no experienced politicians; decision to go to war and, even given that decision, and, of course, that the report should not appear until whether some of the appalling later results could have after the next general election. Perish the thought that been avoided. the public should be influenced by its findings. Among the questions that need to be answered are The inquiry is to be held in secret as, according to the following. We need to know whether the Government the Prime Minister, this is the best way of getting “full misled Parliament and the public by overstating the and candid” evidence. That is an extraordinary reason, evidence there was of weapons of mass destruction. It coming as it does a week after the Government proclaimed does not seem to me that the report from the intelligence that only openness and transparency would serve the community that it knew little about Iraq’s chemical public interest. However, it is worse than that. If this and biological weapons since 1998 justified the claim inquiry is to achieve any kind of closure, it has to made by the Prime Minister at the end of 2002 that satisfy a wide national constituency. It needs to satisfy: our knowledge was “extensive, detailed and authoritative”. the relations of those killed in Iraq; those who have We need to know just how the decision was made been injured; people like me who supported the war inside Government—what advice was proffered by the that we were not deceived; and people who opposed Foreign Office and whether that information was put the war, who should at least be satisfied that this was before the Cabinet. We need to know what planning an honest undertaking. It needs to satisfy the people there was for the aftermath. The invasion is one thing; of Iraq, who have taken the full force of the action, occupation is quite another. We need to know what that the cause was entirely legitimate. action we have taken to help the refugees who have I give four reasons why the inquiry as presently been created by this conflict. Too often they are the constituted will not achieve those goals. First, a secret people who have been forgotten. There is an assumption inquiry of the kind announced by the Prime Minister that, as the security position improves, they will all on Monday simply will not satisfy the public. The return to Iraq. But frankly that is not the case. Government say that this was the procedure of the Earlier this year I went to Syria on an IPU delegation. Franks inquiry in 1982, but that was 27 years ago. The noble Lord, Lord McNally, was also part of it. In Times have changed, as the Government up to this Damascus we interviewed some of the refugees who week have proclaimed constantly. The plain fact is 1229 Iraq[18 JUNE 2009] Iraq 1230 that an inquiry behind closed doors is not what the for more than 60 years? If that is the case, I am not public expect at the end of the first decade of the sure that I want a committee composed of such totally 21st century. disinterested figures. I also observe in passing that the Franks inquiry, The timing of the publication of the report until even at the beginning of the 1980s, did not satisfy after the next election of course gives the whole game everyone. The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, a familiar away. I never met anyone, including those I met in the face here now who was then a Member of the other Army, who believed in the Government’s previous place, called it, excuse that it would be wrong to hold an inquiry while “an establishment cover-up and a whitewash”.—[Official Report, there were still troops in Iraq. In any event, I am not Commons, 18/1/83; col. 180.] sure on the basis of what the Government propose while none other than the late Lord Callaghan said how you can be demoralised by a secret inquiry. The that the committee, Government know perfectly well that this inquiry “chucked a bucket of whitewash”, could and should have been held months ago. They now have the responsibility to find some way, either by over the issue. I do not deny that when there are an interim report or perhaps by dividing the report undoubted issues of national security, the committee into two, of delivering at least some of the results will want to go into private session, but surely the before the public are called on to judge their period of presumption should be the very opposite of what is government. proposed. It should be that evidence is given in public unless there are overwhelming reasons of national The debate in the other place on the Franks report security to do the opposite. That is the test. in January 1983 contained a fundamental point. The terms of reference of the committee of inquiry were We hear today that, somewhat typically of this agreed by the Opposition—indeed, they were changed Government, a letter has gone from the Prime Minister because of a request by the Leader of the Opposition— to the chairman of the inquiry and includes, it is and the membership of the Franks committee was claimed, concessions. We are told that the chairman agreed by the Leader of the Opposition and by all the will be allowed some sessions in public, but we already principal parties in the House of Commons. We are knew that. That was exactly what the Leader of the entitled to know why there was no serious attempt to House of Lords said to me in response to direct do this on this occasion and to find some consensus questions in this House on Monday; it can be seen in on the way forward. the pages of Hansard. We wait to hear what the Minister says on the Government’s latest position on An inquiry into the Iraq conflict should have provided this, but I suggest that it needs to go beyond reheating the nation with an opportunity to learn the truth and Monday’s Statement. We need to know whether the the lessons that could guide future conduct. If we go presumption is for openness or secrecy. That is the along the present course, that opportunity will be lost. crucial question which the Minister should answer. I hope the Government will recognise that the inquiry that they have set up does not command the confidence Secondly, I am frankly astonished by the blandness of much of the British public, and I very much doubt of the Prime Minister’s statement that the committee whether it commands the confidence of Parliament. will not “apportion blame”. The truth is that there may well be blame to be apportioned. Even Ministers agree that the planning for the aftermath was utterly inadequate. Are we to say that this was entirely and 2.39 pm exclusively the fault of the United States? If Britain Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale: My Lords, I thank was also culpable, blame may well be apportioned, the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, for once again giving us and so it should be. an opportunity to discuss Iraq, and I join him in Thirdly, I am concerned by the make-up of this expressing his appreciation of the quality and dedication committee and the absence of military and political of all our magnificent troops, of whom we are all experience. If the Government are to quote Franks, it justifiably proud. should be pointed out that this was a committee with I made many speeches in this House before, during massive political experience that included Merlyn Rees and after the 2003 invasion of Iraq. I argued consistently and Harold Lever, the late Lord Lever of Manchester. then, as I believe now, that the invasion was legally, The Prime Minister ignores such experience and says politically and morally justified. that he wants the committee to be as objective and It was legally justified because Saddam Hussein non-partisan as possible. I think he shows a lack of failed to comply with 23 separate obligations under a understanding of what happens in such inquiries. As series of resolutions—including Resolution 678 in 1990, the Select Committee system in this House and the through Resolution 687 in 1991, which contained the other place shows, politicians are entirely capable of detailed terms for a final ceasefire, to Resolution 1441 setting party positions to one side. in 2003—under Chapter 7 of the UN charter, which Then there is the Prime Minister’s later comment uniquely provides for the use of coercive force and that he is relying on the advice of, authorises collective military action. After Resolution “people who have not been involved in commenting on this issue 678, there were in all some 16 Chapter 7 resolutions. over the last few years”.—[Official Report, Commons, 15/6/09; Twelve years after the UN had given him 15 days to col. 27.] disarm, Resolution 1441 gave him a final opportunity, Frankly, I find that strange. Are we to believe that no which he did not take. Resolution 1441 may have members of his chosen committee has expressed any been necessary for political reasons but surely not for view on the most controversial foreign policy decision legal ones. 1231 Iraq[LORDS] Iraq 1232

[BARONESS RAMSAY OF CARTVALE] and that Sir John Chilcot has the discretion and the It was politically justified because this rogue regime competence to hear evidence in public when he judges was a huge threat in its volatile region and, through it right to do so? that, to us all. Moral justification is a matter of judgment open to different personal views. As the 2.45 pm result of a very close professional involvement with Iraq in 1990 and 1991, I have kept a very close interest Baroness Williams of Crosby: My Lords, I, too, join in that unhappy country. Even those with reservations in the thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, for about military action acknowledge the terrible nature introducing this debate, which is of such great importance of that regime, where the merest suspicion of dissidence and has been made of even more importance by the brought horrible deaths to individuals and their extended Statement of the Prime Minister about an inquiry into families. I consider it a moral action to have relieved the Iraq war. the Iraqi people, the region and the rest of the world The noble Lord, Lord Fowler, put the case very from the threat of this regime. strongly for this particular inquiry being held in public. He made a very powerful point in saying that the There are various lessons that we should learn from assumption must be that, wherever possible, the inquiry our experiences with Iraq. I will try briefly to enumerate should be in the open and that, only in circumstances some of them in the time available. First, decisions where the material is so sensitive that it could risk the about the timing of an interim ceasefire should not be interests of national security, should there be a willingness left solely to soldiers, even to those as distinguished as by the panel to accept in camera discussions rather Colin Powell and Norman Schwarzkopf, because they than those which are open to the public. got it very wrong, with tragic consequences not least for the Shia and the Marsh Arabs, who suffered so We live in a world today that is dominated by the terribly at the hands of the vengeful Saddam. internet and by bloggers, bleaters and tweeters. We have a very large young generation that will not trust Secondly, a very long Chapter 7 UN Security Council anything that is not made as open as possible. We have resolution, containing detailed terms for a final to carry credibility with this inquiry. Frankly, in our ceasefire—as did Resolution 687—should not remain society today, a secret inquiry will carry virtually no flouted for some 12 years before taking decisive military credibility at all. I powerfully and strongly support action to enforce it. Thirdly, the State Department, what the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, has said. where detailed plans had been meticulously prepared, The noble Baroness, Lady Ramsay, who knows a described at the time by one insider as “the greatest great deal about these matters, talked about the various detailed plans for civil reconstruction since the rebuilding resolutions that she believes made the war legal. In of post-war Germany”, should have controlled the that case, it is extraordinary that the Prime Minister post-conflict situation, not the Pentagon. It was a went to such lengths to try to get a second resolution tragedy that these were never put into effect. To be at the United Nations, which he obviously believed brutally frank, Secretary Rumsfeld triumphed in was crucial to making sure that the war was perceived Washington over Secretary Powell. Many other mistakes internationally and globally to be a legal war. flowed from this, such as dissolving the army and Those who will be most affected by this inquiry are going too far with de-Ba’athification. the families of the service men and women who, in Fourthly, not enough recognition was given in advance their brave and devoted service, lost their lives. It is to how the horrors of Saddam’s regime had brutalised their families, relatives and friends who need to be and exacerbated tensions between the Sunni, Shia and satisfied by this inquiry. That means that we owe them Kurds. Fifthly, I argued in April 2003 that it was a nothing less than an inquiry that is as open as it mistake not to take action against Moqtada al-Sadr possibly can be. In that context, it is not only about the then, when he was clearly responsible for the murder losses of life. It is not only about whether the war was of another Shia cleric. To have dealt with Moqtada legal. It is highly relevant that no lesser person than then could have avoided many subsequent problems. the Secretary-General of the United Nations, Kofi Annan, in 2004 gave his considered view that the war I end by saying that I am delighted that the committee was not legal or legitimate. of inquiry, chaired by the excellent Sir John Chilcot, Having said that, many of us also have a deep sense will soon begin its work. Although there are calls for a of sadness that our country, one of the beacon countries public inquiry, as the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, has of democracy in the world, the mother of parliaments, outlined today, I think it is right that this committee should have engaged in an illegal and illegitimate war. should follow the pattern of the Franks inquiry, which It is crucial therefore that this inquiry demonstrates is the nearest parallel for this kind of exercise. However, whether that judgment is right, because it affects all it is my understanding from the Statement on the of us. committee and its terms of reference that my right honourable friend the Prime Minister made in the The noble Lord, Lord Fowler, asked a number of Commons that Sir John Chilcot could take some questions. I will add one or two more. First, when was evidence in public, if and when he judged that appropriate the decision made for the United Kingdom to be and desirable. involved in the invasion? The memorandum sent by Sir David Manning to Condoleezza Rice, the United It is reported that the Prime Minister has now made States Secretary of State, in which he declared that the this explicit, as the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, indicated. Prime Minister was fully on board for the change of Would my noble friend the Minister confirm that regime in Iraq—incidentally itself not legal under the my understanding of the original situation is correct United Nations—was dated 18 March 2002. This implies 1233 Iraq[18 JUNE 2009] Iraq 1234 that the decision to become part of the invasion of under the auspices of Justice on 14 October 2003. Iraq was made long before the debate and discussion Lord Alexander was one of our greatest lawyers and in this country and, perhaps most importantly, long this was possibly one of his finest speeches. He laid before the inspectors were able to report back on the bare the speciousness of the arguments of the completion of their mission, which, as all of us know, Governments of the United States and the United was in effect never completed because enough time Kingdom in favour of the legality of the war. A text of was never given by the allies who were determined to the lecture is now readily available on the web at invade Iraq come what may. www.justice.org.uk. For what it is worth, I would The second big question is how the intelligence mention that shortly after my retirement as a Law about the weapons of mass destruction, and, equally Lord, I was for a brief while the chairman of Justice. important and even more misleading, the intelligence On 18 October 2005, I paid tribute on behalf of that was supposed to show links between the Government Justice to Lord Alexander’s exposure of the illegality of Iraq and al-Qaeda, was put in the public realm and of the Iraq war. whether it had the support of the intelligence community. It was necessary for our Government to find a The references to the links with al-Qaeda have been justification for their action in international law. The shown to be totally hollow. Security Council was plainly opposed to the use of I want to make a final point, but I shall abbreviate force. The only argument available to the British my remarks for lack of time; although my noble Government was to fall back on Security Council friends Lord Lee and Lord Addington will be asking Resolution 678 passed in 1990 for the purpose of further questions, particularly about the military aspects. expelling Saddam Hussein from Kuwait. The sole Much of what happened in the Iraq war was based on reason for harking back to it was that it was impossible the assumption by Her Majesty’s Government that to obtain Security Council approval for the use of they had to follow the United States whatever it said force against Iraq in 2003. Resolution 678, passed in or did. I remind those who, as I do, care deeply about 1990 in a wholly different context, had no relevance to the Anglo-American relationship that the relationship the international position regarding the use of force between Roosevelt and Churchill and perhaps also against Iraq in 2003. that between Mrs Thatcher—the noble Baroness, Lady For many legal arguments, some support can be Thatcher—and Ronald Reagan were characterised by dredged up. While there was limited support for our frank and candid exchanges in which from time to Government, the overwhelming view of international time the British made it clear that they could not go lawyers was that the invasion of Iraq was illegal. Lord along with something, as Mrs Thatcher did over the Alexander’s criticism of our Government’s position invasion of Grenada. When will our Governments on the critical matter of international law at issue is again accept that this country has the right to be quite devastating and fully justifies his view that in heard, and not least when its own service men and their search for a justification in law, the Government women are at risk? Including in this debate, I hope we were driven to scrape the bottom of the legal barrel. I bear it in mind that we, too, have the right to make am in full agreement with what Lord Alexander said judgments and to be listened to. about the legality of the invasion of Iraq in 2003. The Government’s contrary view is plainly absurd and 2.50 pm wrong, but the Prime Minister’s decree prevents this debate being aired before the next election. Lord Steyn: My Lords, I respectfully applaud the For the avoidance of doubt, I make clear that my fact that this debate has been arranged, as I respectfully conclusion is based on two issues. First, I was brought applaud the way in which the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, up to admire American constitutional traditions, and has placed this matter before the House. I fear that the I still do. There is nothing anti-American in my stance. arrangements for an inquiry into the Iraq war and its Secondly, I respect the operational conduct of our terms of reference are patently unacceptable. The absence brave troops on the battlefield of Iraq. of powers of subpoena is a grave flaw. The imposition of total secrecy by the Prime Minister is inappropriate. The explanation that it will ensure, for example, that 2.56 pm the evidence of serving and former Ministers will be as “full and candid as possible” lets the cat out of the Lord King of Bridgwater: My Lords, I join in bag. The condition that the committee, congratulating my noble friend Lord Fowler on initiating this debate. Perhaps I may say to the noble Lord, Lord “will not set out to apportion blame” Steyn, that his comments, which I listened to with is truly absurd. It means that if the committee considers great interest, may be the reason why the former that the previous Prime Minister and the Cabinet were Attorney-General, the noble and learned Lord, Lord to blame, it is not entitled to find accordingly. It is also Goldsmith, had such difficulty at the time giving a extraordinary that nowhere in his Statement has the legal opinion to justify the war. It is one of the issues Prime Minister faced up to the fact that the question that I hope will come out in the inquiry. My noble of law concerning the legality of the invasion of Iraq friend Lord Fowler rightly started by paying tribute to was at the heart of the matter. Why cannot that issue those whose lives have either been lost or shattered as be explored in public, and before the next election? Let a result of the Iraq war. We certainly owe them and me explain the point briefly. their families, who will bear the scars for the rest of One starts with the advantage of the magisterial their lives—some 400 have made the ultimate sacrifice lecture of Lord Alexander of Weedon QC entitled or have been very seriously wounded—a proper inquiry “Iraq: The pax Americana and the law”, delivered into the events. 1235 Iraq[LORDS] Iraq 1236

[LORD KING OF BRIDGWATER] present members of the Government, and that every There is no doubt that in both Houses this is a member of the Armed Forces would feel it their duty deeply controversial matter. Very serious allegations to be fully candid and in public. have been made at every stage of these proceedings On the timing, the Prime Minister said he was and at the moment we have not set up in quite the best advised that it would take about year. Who on earth possible way an inquiry to meet the various proper advised him? Who on earth knows how long it can requirements that I know the House has in mind. The possibly take? The advice was that the Bloody Sunday Prime Minister has clearly got into a big mess about it, inquiry would take six months. As it is now in its and the news today is that he has now written to eighth year, that has not proved very accurate. Sir John Chilcott suggesting that he can invite public My only recommendation—there are a range of hearings as well, which means that he is adjusting the issues that other noble Lords will wish to address and position. I see that the Conservative Party has said I do not wish to delay the House—is that it is absolutely that if it is not satisfied, it will table a debate in the essential that the inquiry is split up in some way, House of Commons next week. I think that that perhaps through interim reports dealing with the separate would be a great pity because I would much rather see issues. They are quite separate issues so why not start this resolved in the proper way. with the terms of reference for the Franks inquiry and The Prime Minister said the day before yesterday how responsibility was exercised in the period up to that he has clung closely to the Franks banner, and the start of the war. That would be a good subject for Franks is what we have got. What we certainly have the first interim report before we get into the issues not had from the start is the way in which Franks was around the appallingly inadequate resources deployed set up, and the noble Lord, Lord Butler, with his in the war. They were a fraction of what we used for diplomacy and technique, will know something about the much more limited objective of liberating Kuwait. that. Moreover, there is a complete absence of cross-party A fifth of the forces deployed to liberate Kuwait were consultation. The Franks inquiry was set up in response used to try to occupy the whole of Iraq and overthrow to two Questions for Written Answer, one tabled by the regime. Very serious allegations arose over the Michael Foot, the Leader of the Opposition, and the decision about going to war, including that delays other by Joe Grimond, emphasising the fact that there were made in procurement of equipment because we had been close cross-party consultation before it was did not wish to give any signal that we intended to go set up. It is tragic that that was not done here. The to war when in fact the decision had already been Prime Minister said rather lamely that that was because taken. A whole range of issues need addressing and they were Written Answers and that he was making an a proper inquiry, conducted as far as possible in oral Statement, but what he did not point out was that public, is absolutely essential if they are to be properly there was then a full day’s debate on the Floor of the dealt with. House on the setting-up of the inquiry. I accept that the people the Prime Minister has 3.02 pm proposed are very distinguished public servants, but Lord Anderson of Swansea: My Lords, I strike a whether the balance between academics and public note of scepticism and discord. I recognise that the servants fully meets the need for non-partisan public Government are honouring an obligation and have to figures is open to question. The Prime Minister said proceed, but I am profoundly unconvinced that the that it would be impossible for anyone in the House of exercise will be worthwhile. It is something of a pipe Lords actually to serve on the committee. I notice that dream to believe that the inquiry as planned, or any four Members of this House—Lord Watkinson, Lord inquiry, will lead to closure. I cite in evidence the letter Barber, Lord Lever and Lord Merlyn-Rees—served page of the Guardian yesterday, where so many people under Lord Franks and I do not think for a moment have already made up their minds and their responses that they were too partisan in their approach to the are already predictable. I recall that when the noble responsibilities they took on as full Privy Counsellors. and learned Lord, Lord Hutton, was appointed there If this is to be a proper inquiry, the Prime Minister’s were paeans of praise about a man wholly incorruptible lack of consultation has done no service to the people and fearless, and yet when his report was published who have been asked to take part. The Leader of the and it was considered to be not the one people wanted, Liberal Democrats in the House of Commons said it was called a whitewash. Many critics of war do that they looked like a hand-picked group that the not want a sober analysis; they want an apology Prime Minister had privately chosen for his own purposes. andthe heads of Tony Blair and Alastair Campbell on I make no allegations against these distinguished people, a platter. but they have not been helped by the way in which this I chaired the Foreign Affairs Committee which has been embarked on. produced the report. We looked, as far as we were able, As to the suggestion that if it were held in public it at many of the documents. I hope that the Government would be impossible to be candid, perhaps some of will at least look at our special report and re-examine your Lordships heard Major General Tim Cross today our experiences if they are concerned—as they say they making it absolutely clear that he would regard it as are—about improving the powers of Select Committees. his duty, having commanded troops in Iraq, to be fully The responses to the Government’s announcement candid and in public about the shortcomings that he are already mostly critical. On the membership, I saw. Sir John Walker, the former chief of defence agree that there should have been a serious attempt at intelligence, was yesterday quoted in the Evening Standard party consensus. It is wrong that there is no person as making clear that, on the present basis, it seems the with serious military experience on the committee. So inquiry is to be in private only to protect the past and far as secrecy is concerned, Hutton was in public but 1237 Iraq[18 JUNE 2009] Iraq 1238 was nevertheless called a whitewash. But I agree with 3.08 pm the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, that the presumption should be in favour of a public hearing and I hope my Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, you can put noble friend the Minister will confirm that the chairman some of the great and good into a shuttered room and will have considerable discretion. It is to be hoped that present them with files and documents into which they there will be a presumption of openness. can dig and delve, and you can send an occasional witness into the gloom to give evidence in secret. No The precedent of Bloody Sunday is not a happy doubt they will emerge after 12 months, blinking into one. Eight years on, with almost £200 million spent, it the light like the political prisoners released from jail has been a bonanza for lawyers. It is perhaps cathartic, in Beethoven’s Fidelio, but I suspect that the chorus but it is likely to have little effect. Perhaps the Minister they will be singing will not be regarded by the public will confirm that if the committee really wants to be as an ode to freedom and enlightenment. The alternative almost entirely in public it will be able to do so. is to hold a proper public inquiry, where evidence is Much of the ground has already been covered, both called, examined and tested, on oath and in public, for in the US and in this country. On intelligence; is there the commissioners to come to proper conclusions that any suggestion that relevant information was not supplied everyone can consider and assent to. to the Butler inquiry and the Intelligence and Security On Monday this week in another place, Sir Menzies Committee inquiry or that they did not have all the Campbell asked whether the inquiry will have the relevant information to reach their conclusions? As to power not just to ask for witnesses but to compel them the pre-planning, it is absolutely right in my judgment— to attend and put them on oath so that their evidence and I met Richard Perle and a number of the neo may be verified against that background. The Prime cons—that we relied too much on people like Perle, Minister’s reply was to say: who were claiming that our forces would be greeted as liberators, without any serious thought to the aftermath. “I know that the Liberal party wanted it to be held in public, Of course the dismantling of the security structures, but I think they know also what happens when there are public inquiries. That means lawyers, lawyers and lawyers, whereas people the police and military forces—the de-Baathification—has can feel free to give evidence and give it frankly about what we turned out to be a mistake. want to hear—that is, the lessons that we can learn from the war”. So far as the law is concerned, the Attorney-General Pressed further on whether there would be a power to made a difficult decision. He must have consulted compel witnesses to give evidence on oath, he said: widely, as is normal, before it. There are equally “The terms under which evidence will be given is a matter on cogent arguments on the other side. It may be that the which we will comment and report later, but I am absolutely sure weight of international legal opinion is on the other that everybody who gives evidence will have to tell the truth to the side, but is the committee, without any lawyers, to committee. They are under an obligation to do so by the committee’s interpose its own legal judgment for that which has terms of reference”.—[Official Report, Commons, 15/6/09; already been made? That is surely absurd. There is no cols. 33-34.] legal expert on the committee. Even if there were, that Can the Prime Minister be capable of such naivety? decision, right or wrong, was made in good faith. The whole point about an oath being administered is As to the military, there must have been many not that it is an appeal to someone’s god but that it lessons learnt and inquiries held within the Army. opens a person to criminal prosecution for perjury if Much will depend on resources, on manpower and on he does not tell the truth. equipment; much of it is technical. There should I can think of a number of instances of this. I was certainly be a military member of the committee. involved in the court martial of the paratroopers three Much of the problem is contextual; what people knew years ago for the death of an Iraqi in Maysan province, at the relevant time. As a former chairman of the when witness after witness came from Iraq and gave Foreign Affairs Committee, I received briefing from evidence. Some women complained that their clothes the same individual as the Prime Minister, and the had been ripped off them, some of them claimed that Prime Minister, in my judgment, honestly reproduced the deceased had been hit by rifle butts and so on. what he had been told. Mistakes there were, of course, When subjected to detailed cross-examination and but mistakes of honest judgment. reminded that they had taken the oath on the Koran, The political issues include our relations with the they all retracted what they had said; we got to the US and the European Union; the resources, civil and truth. As the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, who has to be military; the over-reliance on exiles, Chalabi and others; congratulated on introducing this debate, said, we the intelligence, which was shared by most of our sister need to know the truth. intelligence agencies who came to the same conclusion; The Baha Musa court martial, in which I was also the misreading by the neo cons of 9/11; and, equally, if involved, revealed unacceptable and disgraceful perhaps not mentioned, questions of governance and conditioning that was being carried out in the British whether it was prime ministerial government or Cabinet Army regarding the way that prisoners were handled. government. It was clearly a political judgment; it A senior colonel from the legal department arrived at should be judged politically and not by a committee, Basra airport and saw groups of prisoners sitting on whether in secret or public, of the great and the good. the ground in the sun with their hands bound and with It is inconceivable to expect closure. I predict that blindfolds over their heads. When he made a fuss the likely response will be relief for the Government, about it, all the way up to the Ministry of Defence, he disappointment for the public and cries in unison of was told, “Well, the Attorney-General says it’s all “whitewash”, “cover up” and “charade” from the press right, and if you think any better then you should be and from those who currently criticise the Iraq war. the next Attorney-General”. Of course, the House of 1239 Iraq[LORDS] Iraq 1240

[LORD THOMAS OF GRESFORD] itself. Not long before, the UN Secretary-General had Lords held that the Human Rights Act applies to publicly recognised that the Kosovo situation was a soldiers in the field, but that has not helped the career threat to international peace and security. of that particular officer. The second question concerns just cause. The original The Baha Musa inquiry into the death of a single stated reason, as we know, was the possession of person and the circumstances surrounding it was WMD by Saddam Hussein. In my opinion, it was a announced in May last year. There have been directions very reasonable belief at the time that he had such hearings; it is to open on 13 July; evidence will start in weapons, even though up to that point the inspectors September; and it is expected to last until June or July had not been able to locate them. Taken by itself, next year. That is for a single death. The concept that though, this was not a good enough reason for the inquiry that has been announced by the Prime intervention. Other criteria had to be met as well and Minister will take in the order of 12 months is, obviously, other, perhaps less destructive, possibilities might have not worthy of consideration. It is a serious matter to worked out to be intellectually and morally better. start an inquiry, but we are concerned with extremely There was an alternative to intervention: deterrence serious issues that have to be determined in public. I and containment, which had been working well. Very am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, for bringing often, in a world where there is a choice of evils, we this matter forward. I know that we will return to it have to put up with a less than perfect solution. We again and again. have to live with a problem, containing it rather than solving it, because trying to solve it in one fell swoop would unleash even greater evils. 3.13 pm The third question is whether every possible step to Lord Harries of Pentregarth: My Lords, I also pay achieve a resolution by peaceful means had been tried tribute to our brave service men and women who have first and found to fail. I think perhaps that had actually done their duty in very difficult circumstances. I hope been met. The fourth question is about the very difficult and pray, with everyone else, that Iraq, which is still political and military judgment over whether the evils the most dangerous place on earth, may yet turn out unleashed by the war would outweigh the good that to be better than we feared. might be achieved. I intend to focus on only one aspect of the invasion That is very closely linked to the fifth and last of Iraq: the intellectual and moral framework in which criterion which is so crucial: how do we define success the original decision to invade was made. The intellectual in these kinds of terms? If it is purely in terms of a framework for decisions about military intervention, military victory, then that indeed was very speedily which has been developed in the West through the gained. However, political leaders in the USA and the Christian Church and now forms the basis for UN UK have only very recently woken up to the fact that thinking about intervention, sets out a number of ought to have been in the forefront of their minds questions that have to be addressed before an intervention right from the outset, that the struggle in the modern can be morally justified. world is primarily one against terrorism and success in The first question is: is there lawful authority? that strategy means ensuring that terrorists do not In the Christian tradition, that means the highest gain and hold the hearts and minds of those in whose authority available for resolving disputes. In the name they say they carry out acts of terror. international sphere, in most circumstances, it means Counterterrorism is primarily a battle of hearts and the United Nations. Here, a very important distinction minds in which military force has an important but arises between what is legal and what may be ethical. subservient place. That was very far from the thinking They usually overlap but they are not always coterminous. of those who took us into the conflict in the first place As we know, a debate continues to rage about and is one of the reasons for what I continue to regard whether the invasion was legal. Already today the as a very tragic misjudgment. noble Baroness, Lady Ramsay, has said that she So my focus in this debate has been on the continuing believes it was legal while the noble and learned Lord, relevance of the intellectual framework for considering Lord Steyn, has argued that it was not. My point is the morality of military interventions, which very that what is legal may not be enough. The fact is that much needs to be borne in mind whenever such there was no significant international consensus, interventions are considered in the future. I believe and those opposed were not just the usual suspects that, judged by those criteria, the legal and ethical but serious heavyweight players such as Germany implications, which are not always coterminous, were and France. not thought through significantly, while the actual A useful comparison may be made with the meaning of success in the battle against terrorism was intervention in Kosovo. That did not have a specific not thought through at all. authorisation from the Security Council but, as Michael Quinlan, whom we honoured this morning at his memorial service at Westminster, pointed out, it differed 3.19 pm from Iraq in at least four pertinent respects: the intervention was directed to halting an immediate and Lord Lyell of Markyate: My Lords, I too thank my manifest humanitarian outrage in full swing; it was noble friend Lord Fowler for introducing this remarkably not a regime-changing invasion; it was supported by timely debate. The legal aspects have been mentioned the great majority of countries in the region and a by many speakers already and that is what I want to wide international grouping of major countries; and it concentrate on, not only to look back on the past and was validated soon afterwards by the United Nations find out what did happen, but also to consider its 1241 Iraq[18 JUNE 2009] Iraq 1242 effect on the future. It is clear that the suspicions 3.24 pm about the apparent mishandling of the legal advice Lord Soley: My Lords, the last time I spoke on this has left long-term damage to the perception of the issue was in another debate on a Motion commendably office of the law officers and the Attorney-General. tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Fowler. I spelt out then That needs to be looked at very carefully and we my views on what I saw as the failure of the Iraq cannot do that unless we get to the bottom of what occupation after the conflict. My noble friend Lady really happened. Ramsay has also drawn attention to the important What was the continuing role of the then Attorney- post-conflict failure and to the profoundly important General? It ought to have been that he and his department failure to build consensus, particularly in the region were closely involved in the months and indeed years itself. I do not wish to repeat that; I have said it before running up to the invasion. When one got close to it, and written about it, and I really do not want to go what was he actually told by the then Prime Minister? there again at the moment. What I want to talk about We know from the inquiry of the noble Lord, Lord today, and it touches a little on what the noble and Butler—he is here and will possibly tell us a little right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, said, is the morality more—that his inquiry found it necessary to say that issue and the law issue. the then Prime Minister had been disingenuous in I would dearly love the rule of law to apply throughout relation to the handling of the intelligence. That became the world. I am a politician, and I come to the law very important because, as the noble and learned looking at it as a politician. The law does not apply Lord, Lord Steyn, has adverted to, there were enormously like this in the rest of the world. I would say to deep issues on the legality. lawyers: beware of sounding like the medieval theologians The noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, who who kept arguing about how many angels can stand sadly cannot be in his place, first of all boldly and on the head of a pin when you are dealing with some correctly advised that regime change was not a justification of the most brutal dictators. I say to the lawyers that for the war—in America it is widely believed to be a one of the lessons we have to learn from situations like justification—but we have not seen the full advice on this is that we have yet to find effective ways of dealing that. Also, Tony Blair as Prime Minister quite rightly with this deadly combination of extreme dictators, persuaded President Bush that it was necessary to try failing states and weapons of mass destruction. I say and get a further resolution from the United Nations. to the lawyers that if their argument had prevailed in The position here was entirely different from the situation the past then Pol Pot would still be running Cambodia, in the Falklands and that in the first Iraq war. In the because the Vietnamese illegally removed him; Idi Falklands we had a right to defend ourselves under Amin would still be running Uganda, because the Article 51 of the United Nations charter—I was Tanzanians illegally removed him; and East Pakistan Parliamentary Private Secretary to Sir Michael Havers would still be running what is now Bangladesh, because at that time—and that was always the keystone of our the Indians illegally removed it. position. That also applied in relation to the first Iraq As I have pointed out here before, one of the most war and the position of Kuwait, but of course it important interventions of all time was particularly was then reinforced by an actual United Nations important to this House—the 19th-century intervention resolution. by the British, using the Royal Navy, to stop the transatlantic slave trade. Captains of Royal Navy vessels When that could not be obtained, it seemed that the were successfully sued in court cases in this House for then Prime Minister, Tony Blair, sought to fall back on arresting slave traders on the high seas and for entering some form of Article 51 justification on the basis that the ports of other countries and burning the empty Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction slave boats. All the usual complaints were around and was able with the aid of some improved Scud saying that we should not do it. Why? In the Times at missile or in some such way to drop a nuclear, chemical that period you could read about the cause to bring or biological weapon that could cause mass destruction, our British sailors home because they were dying of either over the Israelis or on to our bases in Cyprus. It tropical fevers and so on and it was felt that it was not was never very clear exactly what it was, and we do not a war for us. Slavery was normal. Trading slaves was really know what the then Attorney-General was told. normal. It became abnormal because we made it so, We do not know exactly what advice he gave, and we even though it was fully lawful at the time. do not know exactly what was told to the Cabinet, People have to be very careful in that if they get the though it seems to have been extremely little. We balance of morality and law wrong, they could end up ought to know those things. defending the indefensible for legal reasons. I have Sometimes an obfuscation is raised: it is sometimes made this argument before. The lawyers today are very said the tradition is that the law officers’ advice is not much in the position of lawyers in the 1950s and 1960s revealed. That has nothing whatever to do with this who argued that if a man beat his wife and kids in the case. It is always open to the Government, who are the street he could be arrested but if he did it in his own client, to waive the privilege. Although the law officers, home he could not be touched. That is what we do in for practical reasons, are the gatekeepers, the privilege international affairs. The Treaty of Westphalia means is that of the client, and the client is the Government. that the nation state is still the dominant idea of the The Government should make it perfectly clear that day. So if Saddam Hussein invades Kuwait, we will they waive their privilege. This inquiry must get legal have him, but if he gases his own people we will let him assistance if it needs it, and it probably does need it. It get on with it. You just put your fingers in your ears, must look into this carefully and give us a full report. cross over to the other side of the road and hope that Nothing else can satisfy us. you do not hear the cries of the kids. 1243 Iraq[LORDS] Iraq 1244

[LORD SOLEY] 3.30 pm I heard the cries of the kids because in Hammersmith Lord Addington: My Lords, I put my name down to I used to get waves of refugees. The noble Lord, Lord speak because, when we went to war in Iraq, regardless Fowler, has been very good on the refugee issue. of the legality—and I am with my noble friend in However, at that time I was getting refugees from thinking that the legal position was extremely tenuous— Saddam and they were pleading for something to be the fact that we did it in a hurry and did not prepare done. There was a breach of the 1991 ceasefire under properly exposed the troops whom we sent into Chapter 7 of the United Nation charter and people combat to unacceptable risk, and gave them an almost were asking me why we could not make the United unachievable job. Nations intervene. We could not. In the House of Commons debates on 18 March 2003, which I took We sent British troops into a foreign country, which part in, relatively few Members on either side of the we had starved for 10 years, having already attacked. issue actually used WMD as the argument. WMD We then hit it with a massive bombardment—or rather, became important not only in their own right but our allies did most of that. We then said, “We bring because they triggered the legal condition. you democracy and freedom because you are really just like us”. Apparently they did not want to be just like us—or like the version that was on offer—and we Lord Burnett: My Lords, will the noble Lord give then wondered why we were badly received. We then way? put on the ground troops who were not properly trained or prepared for the situation and said, “Deal Lord Soley: I shall, my Lords, but I have only one with it”. minute left. A duty of care was missed to the entire Armed Forces, people who are prepared to put their lives at Lord Burnett: My Lords, I apologise, and I am risk to carry out the wishes of the politicians who send grateful. I was at that debate as well. Why did the them into these situations. What happened was that, Prime Minister and his Ministers concentrate so hard for reasons that I do not think anybody will understand on seeking to justify it as a matter of law? fully in the short term, the British Government told the troops to go in and do something primarily because Lord Soley: My Lords, I think that I just answered our allies were doing it. We went in to take on a that. As I said, it became a matter of law partly for second-rate Stalin—brutal and unpleasant, but hamstrung that reason. But it is not the real issue; that was not the and contained—on tenuous grounds; we sent our young judgment that was made. men to do the job. Why? Making the assumption that I come back for my final moments, and I will still things could get a little better, we sent in people to risk finish on time. The balance of power in the world is their lives. changing. The United States is in relative decline. That I have always felt that one of my party’s finest does not mean that it is going down—it is in relative hours was when Charles Kennedy said that we would decline to the powers that are coming up. We know not play along with this. Can we have an assurance that great wars start when great powers are in decline from the Government that any future mass deployment relative to others. That is what happened with Britain of troops, for any level of occupation—it was clear in when Germany, Russia, Japan and the United States Iraq that there would have to be a long occupation—will rose in the early 20th century. Now we have the deadly be accompanied by a doctrine that says what happens problem of failed states, dictatorships and weapons of if we have to be there for three years, five years or mass destruction. If we rely simply on trying to get the whatever? It should say, “Long-term deployment is law right before we intervene, it is only a matter of always going to be an option and we will always time before some of these brutal dictators use weapons support it”. of mass destruction far outside their own borders. These are wars of choice, to use the expression of Saddam Hussein did it—we and the lawyers conveniently my much missed friend Lord Garden. We did not have forget that. to go. We were not stopping Saddam Hussein from I say to the lawyers: use your time to start working storming up Brighton beach. We went to him; we out how we should deal with these situations by creating carried the war to him. We did not have to be there—that international institutions that will enable us to deal is clear. The regime, unpleasant as it was, was contained with extreme dictators of this type. You cannot justify and controlled. We went in and effectively let the genie it; do not try to justify it; and do not end up like the out of the bottle. There was a low-level civil war and medieval theologians whom you sound like at the we placed our troops in the middle of it. Will we ever moment. allow this to happen again? If we do, I suggest that we have learned nothing from this, and that would be Lord Brett: My Lords, I intervene with trepidation. probably the biggest failure of the whole process. This is a timed debate and the limit for speaking is five minutes. I congratulate the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lyell of Markyate, on being the only speaker to 3.34 pm have stayed within five minutes. When the digital clock reads five, it means that the five minutes are completed. Lord Butler of Brockwell: My Lords, I join the We had five minutes of bonus time, courtesy of one congratulations and thanks to the noble Lord, Lord noble Lord not speaking. We will now eat into ministerial Fowler, for giving the House the opportunity to hold time if any noble Lord goes beyond five minutes. this very timely debate. 1245 Iraq[18 JUNE 2009] Iraq 1246

The Government’s political interest in an inquiry in Prime Minister’s pledge to return power to Parliament the form proposed by the Prime Minister is obvious. not stretch to giving it the opportunity to approve The Government have conceded the inquiry which and, if it wishes, to amend the proposal for the inquiry? they promised, and the arrangements proposed for it If the Prime Minister’s decision to return power to ensure that we will hear no more about it until after Parliament does not stretch to that, it now looks likely the general election. The question is whether the that the opposition parties in another place will, next Government have allowed their political interest to week, take matters into their own hands and pass an overcome the national interest. amendment seeking that the inquiry should be conducted in public. I suggest that that is not the way in which There must be two purposes to a further inquiry. these things should be done. One is to learn lessons from the policy decisions taken in connection with the Iraq war. The second is to act as a sort of truth and reconciliation process for those, 3.40 pm including the bereaved, who think that they were misled, even deceived, about the Government’s reasons Lord Sheikh: My Lords, the invasion of Iraq on the for joining the war. I think it possible, indeed probable, side of the USA was one of our most unpopular that an inquiry on the lines proposed can suggest military actions and it received condemnation not useful policy lessons from the war. Certainly, I make only at home but internationally.It resulted in insurgency, no criticism in that respect of the distinguished people mayhem, criminal activities, bloodshed and human appointed to the inquiry, particularly its chairman, for tragedies and it drove a wedge between the Sunni and whom I have a very high regard. But there is no Shia communities. Flawed reasoning and bad intelligence prospect that an inquiry conducted entirely in private were at the heart of the decision to invade. We were can purge the national feeling of mistrust. told that there were weapons of mass destruction, which proved to be wrong. If the intention was to I do not find the national security arguments in effect regime change, then that is not permitted under favour of an inquiry in private convincing. The review international law. We invaded Iraq without a clear that I chaired published verbatim the Government’s mandate and the United Nations was rendered supine, intelligence assessments on which the decision to go to which should not have happened. war was based. If there is confidential material—for The invasion did not receive support from the major example, about discussions with allies—or if there are countries in Europe or from other countries in the witnesses who are prepared to speak openly only in world. We relied heavily on the US, which did not have private, it would be possible for the inquiry to hold in an effective plan to implement post-defeat of Saddam camera sessions for that purpose. Nor am I persuaded Hussein. We should have undertaken our own intelligence by the arguments that an open inquiry would be a field and due diligence before deciding to be part of the day for lawyers. Not every inquiry has to be like the invasion. There were large-scale demonstrations in the Saville inquiry and, if witnesses need protection from country and the serious concerns expressed by senior the inquiry, they need protection whether it is in public former British diplomats with considerable knowledge or in private. So I reluctantly conclude that the form of of Iraq were disregarded. the inquiry proposed by the Government has been dictated more by their political interest than by the We, of all countries, should have realised the problems, national interest, and that it cannot achieve the purpose as we had a mandate to rule Iraq after the First World of purging mistrust which so many people hope for War and were a close ally of that country. The invasion from it. and occupation opened up old wounds between Shias and Sunnis and resulted not only in fighting between There is an additional point for Parliament, as was the two communities but in both communities being pointed out by the noble Lord, Lord Fowler. There are against the occupation. The mayhem also resulted in many differences from the circumstances in which the insurgents coming to the country from other parts of Franks inquiry into the Falklands War was established, the world. As a person who appreciates the art and but there is one crucial difference. That inquiry was set culture of other countries, it broke my heart to find up with the support and participation of all parties in out that a number of cultural heritage sites and museums Parliament. In this case it is clear that neither the were not protected, which resulted in the damage or Official Opposition, nor the Liberal Democrat party, loss of priceless artefacts. Iraq, of course, has one of nor many government Back-Benchers, nor many noble the oldest civilisations in the world. Lords who have spoken on this side today are happy about an inquiry conducted entirely in private. It is I believe that a grave error was made in disbanding therefore doubtful whether the form of the inquiry, if the Iraqi army, but there are efforts now to rebuild it submitted to a vote in Parliament, would obtain a and the police. Those should be continued. Another majority. The question arises: should the form of an problem that must be addressed is that of the displaced inquiry into the actions of the Government be determined Iraqi citizens, while the humanitarian situation is also exclusively by the Government? a cause for concern. There are nearly 2 million internally displaced persons in Iraq. About 30 per cent of Iraqi On 6 July 1982 the then Prime Minister announced citizens are thought to be living in abject poverty, with the membership and terms of reference of the Franks limited access to basic provisions such as clean water, inquiry. On 8 July 1982, two days later, she moved a electricity and proper sanitation. I would be grateful if motion seeking Parliament’s approval and a substantial the Minister would tell your Lordships’ House what debate followed before the motion was passed. So I assistance Her Majesty’s Government are giving the ask the Minister: will the Government similarly seek Iraqi authorities to tackle that situation, which will be Parliament’s approval for this inquiry, or does the essential in rebuilding the country. 1247 Iraq[LORDS] Iraq 1248

[LORD SHEIKH] that there was no clear and decisive opinion either The torture that was inflicted on Iraqi citizens at way—nor was there in that debate. Lawyers are worse Abu Ghraib must be totally condemned and we must than economists. There are many views on either side; ensure that it is never repeated. The soldiers who economists do not get paid for holding opposite views, committed those horrible acts took pride in their but lawyers do and they have an incentive to hold actions by taking photographs and later claimed that opposite views; but that is another question. The issue they were following orders to obtain information. We of legality will not be settled, no matter how many should establish where the commands came from and lawyers we consult. the people concerned should be held to account. I I pay tribute to the 179 soldiers who died. What would like the Minister to comment on that point. they did will be rewarded by a liberated Iraq. More Although many people in the United Kingdom soldiers died in the Falklands War, which lasted seven have negative opinions about what happened in Iraq, weeks; 179 died in Iraq in five years. Millions of Iraqis we should all pay tribute to the bravery of our Armed today and tomorrow will be grateful that Iraq is now Forces. They have played a vital role in improving the at last a democracy. Iraq will be the first Shia-majority situation in Iraq and we owe them a debt of gratitude Arab democracy in the Middle East. We must not for their courage and tenacity. forget that Saddam was not just a secular leader but Although we welcome the decision by the Prime was viciously partisan. He was not only in favour of Minster to launch an inquiry into our involvement in Sunnis against Shias but in favour of his own regional Iraq, following the withdrawal of troops in July, I am Sunnis. Saddam Hussein was a genocidal dictator, and concerned at the lack of transparency in the inquiry. I was against him in the 1990s when my honourable The British public will not welcome the decision to friend Ann Clwyd in another place started a campaign hold it behind closed doors. The basis on which it is to against him. be held is totally unsatisfactory and needs to be revised. I have described myself as a humanitarian warmonger. What are the lessons to be learnt from the Iraq war? I would again go to war to save people who are being I should like to summarise these as follows. First, we tortured and brutally oppressed by their own ruler. I should not get involved in any military action until we do not believe that the fact that the ruler is of the same are satisfied that our intelligence is sound and we have skin colour— a plan for action after vanquishing the enemy. Secondly, we should of course protect our national interest and Lord Hurd of Westwell: My Lords, would the not be subordinate to any other nation. Thirdly, we noble Lord just take into account the approximately must look at the cultural and religious beliefs of 150,000 Iraqis who have been killed since our invasion? people in the country and ensure that our actions will not result in inflaming the situation. Fourthly, the Lord Desai: My Lords, yes, indeed, but what about reasons for any invasion must be sound and clearly the number of Iraqis killed under the regime of Saddam explained to Parliament and the British public. Fifthly, Hussein? If the noble Baroness, Lady Nicholson, was we must always think about the exit strategy and in her place she would describe how the ecology of the leave behind a suitable legacy. Sixthly and finally, any Marsh Arabs was destroyed so thoroughly that it has action must not result in overstretching our military taken years to restore the marshes in southern Iraq. capability, and our forces must be adequately resourced People do not realise. We somehow have this prejudice— in every way. especially towards countries east of the Bosphorus, if I may say so—that if those people torture their 3.46 pm populations, that is their culture and we should not Lord Desai: My Lords, perhaps noble Lords will interfere. We like democracy and human rights but permit me to say that this is the 18th anniversary of “dusky” people—to quote Kipling—are denied them my maiden speech in your Lordships’ House. I am and we let them murder. grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, for allowing The United Nations is worst in this respect. See us an opportunity to debate this question. I was, and what happened in Sri Lanka and what the UN Human continue to be, supportive of the decision made by the Rights Council agreed to there. As my noble friend Government to invade Iraq. Many of the reasons have Lord Soley said, if the law had not been broken by already been described by my noble friends Lady Tanzania and India, there would still be oppression. Ramsay and Lord Soley. There is still oppression in Darfur, North Korea and Let me start by saying this: I am absolutely in elsewhere because the United Nations is a passive and favour of a very open inquiry. It should be like the rather fragile body. Do not rely on the United Nations. Bloody Sunday inquiry. Let it take seven or eight Trust your instincts. It is always worth saving lives if years, or whatever; but at the end of it people will not people are being tortured, no matter by whom. be satisfied that an answer has been obtained. They are not satisfied with the Hutton or Butler inquiries, 3.51 pm because the point is that people know the answer they The Earl of Sandwich: My Lords, the Afghanistan want and if they do not get the answer they want they war was, to my mind, a necessity, but the Iraq war was will not be satisfied. an expensive mistake. It cost hundreds of thousands On the question of law, we had a debate in your of lives and made millions homeless. It led to mass Lordships’ House that the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, hostility all over the Arab world. In the end it removed opened. I spoke in that debate and carefully examined a tyrant, but it dismantled the Sunni machinery of books on international law. I came to the conclusion state security. The Americans turned it around only by 1249 Iraq[18 JUNE 2009] Iraq 1250 reversing their policy and creating the new Sahwa restrictions. Is our humanitarian assistance really enough? militia out of former Sunni insurgents, as the noble An estimated 4.8 million Iraqis were displaced. As the Baroness, Lady Ramsay, has admitted. As we have noble Lord, Lord Fowler, said, refugees are slowing heard, the war was also illegal in the eyes of the world. returning but many will not ever do so. According Our then Prime Minister was, by February 2003, so to the International Rescue Committee, large-scale committed to the President’s axis of evil that he went resettlement of refugees to third countries is still essential ahead without the necessary international support. to protect the most vulnerable Iraqis. The UK is well I remind the Minister that the 2006 report of the behind others in this, even though it promised to fill Constitution Committee, on which I served, recommended its quota of 500. the end of the royal prerogative to make war except in cases of emergency. The Iraq war was an executive 3.56 pm decision and the last-minute parliamentary vote in 2003, with 130 Labour rebels, was hardly an expression Earl Attlee: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble of popular will. The Government promised to look at friend Lord Fowler for introducing this debate. He this war-making power again under the heading of said that the price was high. It is: the public will never “constitutional renewal”. Could the Minister confirm again believe the Prime Minister on a matter of national that this will be in the Bill, although it will not of security course be in the remit of the inquiry? I have an interest to declare. I served on Operation Then there is the question of the 45-nation coalition TELIC 1 in HQ 1 (UK) Armoured Division. I arrived against terrorism, claimed by the United States. Did in Kuwait on or about 13 March 2003. I expected to terrorism exist in Iraq, or did we attract it? What engage in about four weeks of exercises, having left happened to the Baker-Hamilton plan to involve the your Lordships’ House with the words of the noble neighbouring states? Iran is still responsible for much Baroness, Lady Symons, ringing in my ears that war of today’s violence. Whatever the outcome of last was neither imminent nor inevitable. So when I arrived Friday’s election, the US and Iran urgently need to in theatre, I was a little surprised when the question find new common ground of a stable Iraq and a was, “Are we crossing the start line this week or lasting political settlement along the Iranian border. next week?”. We cannot blame the Army. With a few exceptions, The coalition, and the UK in particular, moved our troops performed at their best and Basra has seen very fast. In December 2002, UK forces were planning some of the fiercest action in the war. It is true that we for a very different operation, and no doubt the Iraqis lost the confidence of the people. We were unable to were as surprised as we were. Those of us who served control the Shiite militia. I hope that the inquiry will on that operation are very proud of our achievements. concentrate on the original decision to go to war, since We caused the regime to collapse while taking minimal soldiers are there to obey orders. casualties ourselves, although I assure your Lordships “It was bad under Saddam, but now it is worse” is a that in the headquarters we felt for the families and familiar cry. Violence is still part of daily life. Corruption friends of every serviceman who was killed or seriously in the army is so bad that officers are charging new injured. Every casualty hurt us deeply. recruits hundreds of dollars to join. Food rations from All of us in the headquarters believed that we faced the trade ministry are on sale in the markets, and the attack by chemical weapons of mass destruction. I militia still rules. Who is going to cope with these shall never forget the day when I first put on my full problems? It will not be the US or the United Nations. chemical protection suit and respirator for real. I My guess is that Iraq will need another tyrant. That honestly believed that if my drills or those of my tyrant may well be the present Prime Minister, Nouri friends were poor, we would die, and die horribly. I al-Maliki. The vicious circle of security and development well recall one night when the NBC warrant officer must end, because a referendum on the security agreement looked like death warmed up. When asked, he explained would mean a hurried exit by the US in the course of that the meteorological conditions were perfect for a the next year or so. chemical attack. Our Government have to make up for their past We had a plan for what we would do when we found mistakes. One can understand the noble Lord, Lord the weapons of mass destruction, especially how we Mandelson, and others writing up Iraq for the benefit would convince the rest of the world that they were of British investors. It is also important to attract not a plant. We had reward schemes for informers; we skilled Iraqis back into the country. An Iraqi MP searched all likely places; we dug up fresh tarmac; we summed it up yesterday: no security, no oil, no budget. used ground-penetrating radar; and we hoped to find, More than 50 oilfields lie waiting for development. say, 5,000 rounds of 155 millimetre chemical shells. Many of our investors are still sitting it out. What However, we found absolutely nothing. By the time I matters as we look forward is that Iraqis gradually left theatre in late May, weapons of mass destruction gain confidence in their Administration and that the were right at the bottom of the commander’s list of international community makes a contribution in line priorities. It was a case of, “Oh, and if we do find any with people’s needs, rather than being driven by profit WMD …”. So far as I was concerned on 1 June 2003 or greed, as was the case at the end of the war. when I got back to the UK, there were no weapons of Building local capacity to lay the foundations for mass destruction in Iraq in militarily significant quantities development is critical. Some of this is being done at the time we crossed the start line. through civil society and the NGOs. What are our Many noble Lords have talked about the inquiry Government doing to encourage the UN to regain its being held in secret. If it was correct that the inquiry previous status? It is labouring under excessive security has to be in secret, this would have been apparent 1251 Iraq[LORDS] Iraq 1252

[EARL ATTLEE] was presumably aware, from our shared intelligence five years ago; so why the delay? The fact that we still resources, that there was no evidence at all of either have troops in theatre is irrelevant. They are not the involvement. Furthermore, was Mr Blair aware of the same troops and officers as those that planned and extent to which the White House was not only ignoring took part in Op TELIC 1. Very little needs to be kept the advice of the many American experts with a deep secret or is sensitive. What does need to be kept secret knowledge of Iraq and the wider Middle East, both in and might be relevant to the inquiry are: future the State Department and in academia, but had taken plans that are still extant; intelligence-gathering active steps to exclude them from the chain of advice? capabilities, or lack of them; weaknesses in our equipment Finally, will the inquiry attempt to reveal the extent that we have not yet resolved; or weaknesses in an to which, if at all, the British Government availed opponent that they might not be aware of. What else themselves of the similar British diplomatic, military can there be? and academic experience available to them, warning Major General Tim Cross, who I have served under, them of the dangers inherent in an invasion of Iraq? If has already stated that his evidence can be given in so, were these warnings discussed with our American public, and I know that will be very useful to the allies? One of the lessons which should be learnt from inquiry when it starts looking at post-conflict planning. this tragedy is that, if Ministers are too busy to study The noble Baroness, Lady Ramsay, talked about Rumsfeld history themselves, they should at least have been and Powell in terms of post-conflict plans. She may be ready to learn the many lessons from Britain’s troubled right in her analysis, but I hope the committee will history of involvement in Mesopotamia and Iraq. explore why we acquiesced to those plans, because this Perhaps I may add two postscripts on the Franks was a war of choice, as pointed out by the noble report, because there have been several mentions of it. Baroness, Lady Williams. The first relates to transparency. Your Lordships may I also hope that the committee will look at the grand be interested to know that I gave extensive evidence to strategic issues. We started operations in Afghanistan the Franks committee. If you read volume 2 of the in 2001 and caused the Taliban regime to collapse. We Franks report in the Library, you will not find one are now told that operations in Afghanistan are absolutely word of what I said. The reason is not that my essential to our security. They are certainly essential to evidence was particularly sensitive; it was that I was the credibility of NATO. In 2001-02, the MoD spent chairman of the Joint Intelligence Committee, a job £221 million in Afghanistan and £311 million in 2002-03. that did not exist at that time—it was not avowed. In 2003-04, it had dropped to £46 million, and it was More seriously, I draw your Lordships’ attention to £67 million in 2004-05. But Afghanistan had very one of the criticisms of the Franks report, which was serious difficulties in 2003; so why did we start a that Ministers had failed to meet in committee for six large-scale, deliberate operation in Iraq, which would weeks, I think, before the Argentinian invasion of the cause the UK to operate at over 100 per cent of Falkland Islands. One recommendation of Lord Franks defence planning assumptions? was that the Defence and Overseas Policy Committee, I well recall the publication of the Scott report. I or whatever it is called nowadays, should meet often wanted to know what, if anything, had gone wrong, when dangers are coming over the horizon. Your but I still do not know. The report would not fit into Lordships may remember that immediately after the my briefcase, and there was no summary. I hope that invasion of Iraq, I asked Questions in this House the committee, when it does report, will produce a about how often the Defence and Overseas Policy summary that is short and succinct enough for all your Committee had met in the run-up to the invasion. I Lordships to read. received extremely woolly replies that Ministers had had a lot of discussion. That was it. I hope that the 4.02 pm inquiry will be able to look at the extent of ministerial Lord Wright of Richmond: My Lords, in my brief and Cabinet consultation in the lead-up to the invasion intervention after the Statement three days ago, I of Iraq. asked for an assurance that the inquiry would look into what I described as the “genuine considerations” 4.06 pm which led to the American decision to invade Iraq. Lord Gilbert: My Lords, it is quite apparent that the Unfortunately, most of the evidence establishing the inquiry announced by the Prime Minister in its present genuineness or otherwise of those considerations could form does not enjoy the full support of Members of be satisfactorily provided only if the inquiry were able your Lordships’ House, but it is not too late to do to secure the personal evidence of President George W something about that. Attention has been drawn to Bush, Vice-President Cheney and Defence Secretary the fact that there are no military figures on the Rumsfeld. committee, and there are no serious politicians there. I I hope that the inquiry will at least be able to draw attention to the fact that there is nobody there establish from Mr Tony Blair what he was told by his with any experience of mounting an inquisition, a interlocutors in the White House and how he responded. cross-examination. In my view, it is not necessary that Was their objective to remove Saddam Hussein? If so, people with those talents and abilities are part of the did Mr Blair make it clear to our American allies, as committee; they could be co-opted to be advisers to Ministers did repeatedly to this House at the time, that the committee. it was no part of HMG’s policy to achieve regime First, I hope that my noble friend can assure me change, whether in Iraq or elsewhere? Was it to punish that there is no restraint whatsoever on Sir John the Iraqis for their supposed involvement in 9/11, or Chilcot as to who he can retain to advise him on the for their involvement with al-Qaeda? If so, Mr Blair committee. Secondly, there has been some confusion—in 1253 Iraq[18 JUNE 2009] Iraq 1254 my mind, if nowhere else—as to whether the inquiry is The noble Lord, Lord Hurd, who is unfortunately to be conducted completely in secret, in private. I have not in his place, asked about the over 100,000 Iraqis heard the words “total imposition of secrecy” used. who were killed. It was appalling but they were not On the other hand, I understand that the Prime Minister killed by us; they were not killed by the allies. They has written today to Sir John Chilcot saying that have overwhelmingly been killed by their fellow Iraqis. there will be something less than total imposition of We should remember that. Much that happened after secrecy. I imagine, and I hope that my noble friend can the liberation was most unfortunate and I am happy reassure me, that it will be left entirely to the discretion to have a debate limited to that subject, but the last of Sir John Chilcot as to which of the meetings he thing we should be asking ourselves is why we went holds in secret and how much of his evidence he sees into Iraq. We should be asking ourselves why we did fit to publish—although I fully understand that there not go into Cambodia and why we did not go into must be prime ministerial oversight of that last point, Darfur. As my noble friend Lord Desai said, there because of questions of national security. we abdicated our responsibility to look after our fellow men. I think that the Prime Minister was unfortunate in his reference to how long he thought that the committee would sit for. I saw no reason for him to do that; it 4.12 pm seemed to me to be giving an enormous hostage to Lord Ramsbotham: My Lords, I apologise to the fortune. I am absolutely confident that the committee House that a pressing engagement with an amendment will do its work at a speed that it sees fit and will take to the Welfare Reform Bill meant that I could not hear the amount of time that it sees fit. It may wind up its all the speeches that have preceded me. Coming at the work in six months; it may take three years; I do not end of some remarkable tours de force around the have the faintest idea. None of us today should prejudge House, to concentrate very much on the Armed Forces how long the committee will take to do its work. may perhaps be happy timing at the end rather than at the beginning of the debate. I want to respond to a couple of other things that I have heard in today’s debate, which has been remarkable. I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, on I pay tribute above all to the speech made by my noble obtaining this debate. He must be thinking that it was friend Lord Soley. It is one of the most brilliant fortunate that the timing coincided with the announcement speeches that I have heard since I have been in your of the inquiry. It is therefore hardly surprising that Lordships’ House. He was attacking the lawyers. I feel there have been many references to the inquiry, how it very much the same way as he does about lawyers. should be conducted and by whom. I entirely agree Nothing irritates me more than hearing lawyers say with my noble friend Lord Butler about parliamentary that something is illegal as though it were a matter of endorsement, not least because of the families the fact, rather than having the diffidence to say that it is noble Baroness, Lady Williams, mentioned who are illegal in their opinion. Whether something is legal or looking for something public to endorse what they illegal is a matter of a lawyer’s opinion. That is why we have been through, particularly inquests which they have lawyers and judges, and judges disagree with one have gone to hoping to learn more of the truth of why another and come to decisions that are overruled by something happened than inquests can actually provide. other judges. So to say adamantly that something is I have absolute confidence in Sir John Chilcot as illegal strikes me as the most preposterous arrogance the chairman, knowing him as I do, but as I said after and it irritates me intensely. I have now got that off my the announcement, I still feel very strongly that whether chest. As my noble friend was pointing out, what is it is Sir John inviting somebody to be an adviser or illegal at one time can become illegal later on in not, it is absolutely essential that there should be precisely the same set of circumstances. military representation somewhere in this inquiry because of the military implications of what has happened. I personally supported the liberation of Iraq—that I was going to declare a slight interest as a council is what it was. It was a military undertaking of extreme member of the International Institute for Strategic brilliance. There were a handful of casualties and, Studies at the time and mention the dossier we published your Lordships may remember, it was undertaken on 9 September 2002, which as my noble friend Lord without the best American infantry division getting Butler knows was proved to be absolutely correct after on to the scene of battle while the fighting was going the war. It having been put in the hands of both on. I thought it was magnificent. Mr Blair and Mr Bush before they had their discussions The second most brilliant speech, if you will forgive later in September that year, I have often wondered me for saying so, came from my old friend the noble how the truth as presented by the IISS became so and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries. I thought it distorted in subsequent dossiers for different reasons. was one of the most thoughtful speeches we have I do not want to concentrate on that; I want to heard in a remarkable debate. I did not agree with a lot concentrate on another document that has been produced of it but it was admirably argued. He asked a very since the invasion. It is a remarkable American pertinent question: what is success? I think he got the document—the Counterinsurgency field manual—which answer from my noble friend Lord Desai—that one of was produced as the result of close work orchestrated the foulest dictatorships this planet has ever seen has by General David Petraeus, the orchestrator of the been removed, and a lot of Iraqis, at danger of being surge. In typical United States fashion, it agreed that machine-gunned, stood in line to vote in far higher the air-land battle—on which the Cold War had been proportions than people voted in this country in three fought and for which many organisations, including elections. That is success. the British Armed Forces, had equipped themselves—while 1255 Iraq[LORDS] Iraq 1256

[LORD RAMSBOTHAM] whether it survives and whether the fragile peace holds a perfectly satisfactory model for carrying out the on the departure of allied forces, but has the terrorism invasion of Iraq and the destruction of the Iraqi army, threat receded? As Tam Dalyell said in that debate: was wholly and utterly unsuitable for the operations “What could be more calculated to act as a recruiting sergeant that followed. for a young generation throughout the Islamic and Arab world The preface to the manual starts: than putting 600 cruise missiles … on to Baghdad and Iraq?”.— [Official Report, Commons, 18/3/03; col. 769.] “When an insurgency began in Iraq in the late summer of 2003, the Army was unprepared to fight it. The American Army Has the development of the United Nations been of 2003 was organized, designed, trained, and equipped to defeat helped by the controversial invasion? Has the relationship another conventional army … It was … unprepared for an enemy between the European Union and the Unites Sates who … chose to wage war against America from the shadows”. been enhanced? We recall the opposition of Germany We have found exactly the same. and France, as the noble and right reverend Lord, Of some sadness to me since 2003 has been the fact Lord Harries, said a little earlier. As the late-lamented that, because our Armed Forces were similarly unprepared Robin Cook said: to take part in the proper reconstruction of Iraq, our “The reality is that Britain is being asked to embark on a war standing, particularly with our allies the United States, without agreement in any of the international bodies of which we has gone down. In no way has the United States lost are a leading partner—not NATO, not the European Union its admiration for the courage and performance of and, now, not the Security Council”.—[Official Report, 7/3/03; individuals; the issue is the overall contribution that cols. 726.] we have been able to make. It is therefore hugely Has the way that the United States engages with the important that this inquiry should get to the bottom rest of the world been endorsed and applauded? Hardly. of why the Armed Forces were still structured for a The reality is that the Bush approach was decisively Cold War setting rather than for the sort of operation rejected, even in the US itself as Obama swept that we are geared for in Iraq. Why was there an to power. absence of things such as flak jackets? Why do we have The irony is that virtually everything that Tony an armoury that contains weapons such as the Eurofighter Blair set as a purpose has ended up achieving precisely when we do not have the sort of vehicles that we the opposite. As the noble Lord, Lord Wright, said a need to fight the sort of combat that we need to fight little earlier, looking back, we are still no clearer as to in Iraq? what motivated and drove George Bush to invade. I beg the inquiry to pay close attention to the Was it to complete his father’s unfinished business? remarks of Major-General Brims, the commander of Was it revenge for 9/11? Was it oil? Was it to remove a the division responsible for the invasion, who told me tyrant? Was it an assault on an assumed terrorist base? when I asked him what the battle-winning factor was: Was it weapons of mass destruction or perhaps some “It was the American marine air wing which was put combination? Maybe the order came via communication under my command, because it had everything that we with the almighty? needed, none of which the Royal Air Force could Whatever the cause, it seems increasingly clear that provide”. That is why I hope there will be a serious Tony Blair pledged his own, and the United Kingdom’s, military examination not only of the past but particularly support for military action at a very early stage, probably for the future, because these are the operations in in 2002, as many noble friend Lady Williams said a which we will be involved and we must make certain little earlier. With the United States, he then set about that future Armed Forces are properly equipped to seeking UN approval, justifying the legality of such carry out the tasks required of them. action and endeavouring to obtain parliamentary and popular support for it. 4.17 pm Last Saturday evening I watched a television Lord Lee of Trafford: My Lords, I congratulate the programme that featured the families of a number of noble Lord, Lord Fowler, on securing this very timely those 179 service personnel who had fallen in Iraq. It debate. was a very moving experience. Inevitably, a mix of emotions was revealed: pride, grief, bitterness and a In the pre-Iraq invasion debate in March 2003, the questioning of the motives of the then Prime Minister. then Prime Minister, Tony Blair, said: We must all be conscious of the consequences of “This is a debate that, as time has gone on, has become less military action and of pressing the button on the lives bitter but no less grave. So why does it matter so much? Because the outcome of this issue will now determine more than the fate of so many, as we heard a little earlier from my noble of the Iraqi regime and more than the future of the Iraqi people friend Lord Addington in his very passionate and who have been brutalised by Saddam for so long, important effective speech. though those issues are. It will determine the way in which Britain I personally believe that Tony Blair did what he and the world confront the central security threat of the 21st century, the development of the United Nations, the relationship thought was right. These Benches, and indeed Liberal between Europe and the United States, the relations within the Democrats throughout the county, and many others, European Union and the way in which the United States engages strongly opposed going to war. With the benefit of with the rest of the world. So it could hardly be more important. hindsight, with no weapons of mass destruction found, It will determine the pattern of international politics for the next with all the death and destruction, not forgetting the generation”.—[Official Report, Commons, 18/3/03; col. 761.] cost and the vast number of refugees, 2 million or so Few could have put the issues more clearly. as the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, said a little earlier, I Six years later, let us attempt an assessment. It is now believe that the vast majority of parliamentarians true that Saddam Hussein has gone and a democracy and of our people regret the war and consider themselves of sorts is in its infancy in Iraq. Only time will tell to have been conned by No. 10. 1257 Iraq[18 JUNE 2009] Iraq 1258

As we know, coalition forces were spectacularly answer this afternoon. Secondly, as the inquiry is successful as the Iraqi forces crumbled, with control of estimated to take a year, a long time given the intense the skies having been achieved before open conflict public concern and interest, will the Government consider began. Major combat operations were officially declared publishing an interim report in, say, early 2010, as over on 1 May 2003. We listened to the very fascinating suggested earlier in the debate by the noble Lord, personal contribution from the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, Lord King? The invasion was a very serious mistake who was there. and so is the decision to hold the inquiry in secret. Would that the post-conflict planning had been anything approaching that of the military planning. I 4.27 pm accept the caveats that the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, made a little earlier. As General Sir Mike Jackson said Lord Howell of Guildford: My Lords, I offer warm in 2007: thanks to my noble friend Lord Fowler for initiating “All the planning carried out by the State Department went this debate with exceptionally good timing. I share the to waste”. views of others that there are no words to express our For Rumsfeld and the neo-cons, pride in the military forces and the way they have “it was an ideological article of faith that the coalition forces performed over the past few years, or indeed words to would be accepted as a liberating army”. express the sadness at those who did not return. One of those who did return, from Basra, was my own son, The first American administrator, Jay Garner, arrived who served in the early days before the terrible policy with no professional translators or interpreters on his errors began to accumulate which created a downward staff but, instead, a motley crew of former diplomats, path from the early promise. retired military people and neo-conservative firebrands. Garner was replaced by Paul Bremer, who took the As to the inquiry, let me make it clear at the outset decision to disband the Iraqi army. That was commented that we wanted, have asked for, and therefore in a on a little earlier by the noble Baroness, Lady Ramsay, sense welcome the decision that there should be one, and the noble Lord, Lord Anderson. The compulsory but are far from happy about the form proposed. We redundancy of 400,000 trained and armed men following agree with practically all noble Lords this afternoon hard on the heels of de-Baathification, created a large that where possible it should be held in public. That is pool of resentment, a fresh reservoir for insurgent what military leaders have argued for very vigorously recruitment. An effective security and stability tier had and it is what the noble Lord, Lord Butler, has argued been destroyed, rendering the restoration of government for with devastating force in this debate. I would be services well nigh impossible, certainly in the short surprised if there is any reasonable answer at all. I very term. much hope that the Government will now change their position and ensure that the presumption is that hearings I turn now to the inquiry announced by the Prime should be held in public except in cases of clear and Minister earlier this week. Virtually all noble Lords obvious national security. who have spoken today have condemned its secrecy and I suggest that the terms of the inquiry have been It is not true that the Opposition agreed the form of totally demolished in the speeches of the noble and this report, as the Foreign Secretary claimed on the learned Lord, Lord Steyn, and the noble Lord, Lord radio the other morning. We were consulted at a late Butler, while the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, drew stage, but we disagreed with the membership and the attention to the lack of military representation on the proposal that it should be conducted entirely in private. committee. As Nick Clegg said in the other place, The membership that was presented to us was that there would be four men, it so happens, on the panel “everyone knows that the invasion of Iraq was the biggest foreign policy mistake that this country has made in generations”. and we argued that it would be right for a lady to be included. Then, of course, it was decided that the He went on to say: noble Baroness, Lady Prashar, should be included. “A secret inquiry conducted by a clutch of grandees handpicked She is a very distinguished and respected Member of by the Prime Minister is not what Britain needs”.—[Official this House, and that is excellent, although I notice that Report, Commons, 15/6/09; col. 28.] at present she is a non-executive director of the Cabinet These Benches, most of the media, the general public Office. She might want to consider whether that impedes and the families of those who so bravely fought and her role as a member of a completely independent died in Iraq, demand a public inquiry. As General Sir inquiry. But even so, that still leaves the membership Mike Jackson, the head of the Army at the time, said with no one of military experience, as the noble Lord, in the Independent yesterday: Lord Ramsbotham, and others have pointed out, and “I would have no problem at all in giving my evidence in yet we need desperately to know what went wrong and public”. how we cope with asymmetric warfare in the coming Air Marshal Sir John Walker, the former head of phases, as there are bound to be around the world. We defence intelligence, said: need to learn from the inquiry on that matter. “There is one reason that the inquiry is being heard in private, There is no one on the committee with legal experience, and that is to protect past and present members of this Government. as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Steyn, and my There are 179 reasons why the military want the truth to be out”. noble and learned friend Lord Lyell pointed out. That I should like to ask the Minister two specific questions. is incredible, because major legal issues arose in the First, given that the inquiry is to be held in private move towards the invasion which remain to this day. despite our strong objections and the objections of so There is no one on the committee with political experience. many, what possible reason was there for not starting That is in great contrast to the Franks committee, it considerably earlier? I hope that we will get an which was supposed to be a model. It is not a model at 1259 Iraq[LORDS] Iraq 1260

[LORD HOWELL OF GUILDFORD] That is a terrible indictment. The Butler report pointed all. The invasion was a highly political issue and a out the disastrous impression created by Tony Blair in highly political decision, and yet on Franks there were telling the Commons that the “intelligence picture” senior politicians from all parties but in this case there presented was “extensive, detailed and authoritative” are none. I am reminded that when the Franks inquiry when it was none of those things. It also highlighted—in was set up, my noble friend Lady Thatcher negotiated discreet language, of course—the truly terrible bypassing personally with the other party leaders to ensure who of Cabinet government when it spoke of the reduction should be members of that committee. This time, I in, gather, the Cabinet Secretary simply informed the “the scope for informed collective … judgement”. leader of my party. I am not sure about the Liberal The Foreign Affairs Committee—we have heard wise Democrat Party, but I gather it too lacked any serious words today from the noble Lord, Lord Anderson— consultation. We think all that is deplorable. pointed out that it was “fundamentally wrong” to It is also deplorable that the report will take a full allow the dossier to be presented to Parliament in the year—the inquiry should have started earlier, of course— way that it was. and it is very unsatisfactory that no responsibility for As to the future, the occupation and the next stage major errors is to be apportioned. I hope what I have in UK/Iraq relations, we have to look at the disastrous said does not leave anything in the Minister’s mind to decisions that were taken, at the way in which Iran was the effect that we think this is being handled in the given a free run once Iraq was removed from the map right way, because it is not. and at why Iraqi forces were disbanded by our American I turn now to the focus of the inquiry. I think it was friends, and we have to look hard at how our relations originally Mr Brzezinski and Richard Haass who said, with the USA evolved. It is important, as the noble but many others have repeated, that this was a war of Baroness, Lady Williams of Crosby, said, that we do choice, not of necessity. The original Kuwait war was not become a lap-dog; we must remain a friend of our of necessity and had to be fought; this one was a great American allies but not be their poodle. We have policy decision. In my view, like Suez, in a way, the to look at the refugee issue, which my noble friend Iraq venture marked a turning point in international Lord Fowler mentioned, and at whether we got value affairs when the hegemony of the western powers for the enormous amount of money we spent. Britain finally had to yield to new realities, which are only just has spent anything up to £5 billion on military operations. dawning now as power shifts away from the West, as I agree that that is trivial compared with the $3 trillion many noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord to $5 trillion that America may have spent, but it is Soley, observed. We need to examine how that war of still an enormous amount of resources. choice came to be made, as well as the consequences The news from Iraq is still bad. Murders and bombings and the violent aftermath in the years following continue, and Prime Minister al-Maliki has said that the invasion. worse may be to come. We in Britain may say, “never With hindsight, we can see that the project was again”, but the truth is that bad leaders will always based on flawed ideas—not only the obvious one that make bad mistakes. At the moment all our journalists there were no weapons of mass destruction when we are busy blaming the so-called “political class” as were all briefed to the eyeballs that there were, but the though they come from outer space, but I wonder even deeper error that democracy is a kind of western whether society is prepared to recognise that it is artefact that can be exported in our form to other people themselves who choose their politicians or, by cultures. I hope the historians who are members of the inertia, let them be chosen, and therefore, I am afraid, panel will realise that the idea of democracy and they get the politicians that they deserve. All one can self-government began in the area now covered by say is that a wiser society ought to pick wiser guides Iraq and Syria. As my noble friend Lord Sheikh and leaders in future, which is the best guarantee reminded us, it began a thousand years before it came against future catastrophic mistakes. to Athens and several thousand more before it reached The Government’s approach has had almost no the West, let alone America. It is a particular irony defenders today. Light is clearly needed on many that we should be talking about bringing democracy aspects of what has gone disastrously wrong. An open to the Middle East region and to Iraq just when our inquiry is essential, and the Government have made a own democracies might be sleepwalking into deep complete misjudgment in proposing the inquiry in the trouble themselves. form that they have. They must now think again. The Butler report certainly went deep into intelligence failures and it had some sharp criticisms of the Government’s behaviour, although frankly, in the public and media comment on that excellent report this did 4.38 pm not come over as sharply as it should have. I wonder The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth why. It was the Butler report that exposed the absurdity Office (Lord Malloch-Brown): My Lords, I rise with of the 45-minute claim and the misleading nature of humility on two scores. First, it is a tribute to this the dodgy dossier, which Mr Jack Straw described as, House, particularly to the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, “a complete horlicks”. That sentiment was echoed by that we are today debating the fact that there will be such leading figures as Lady Kinnock, who we look an inquiry. When he tabled a debate 18 months ago, forward to seeing as our Minister for Europe in a few that was a much less certain outcome, and all of us in weeks’ time. She said in an article last year that, this House who spoke that day realised that we were “there is the sense that Iraq was ‘Bush and Blair’s war’ and that it contributing to pushing this issue forward to the point was built on a lie”. that it has arrived at now. 1261 Iraq[18 JUNE 2009] Iraq 1262

Like others who believe that an inquiry is enormously that it is felt to have a form that enjoys the support of important to heal the wounds of this country and our our colleagues who have spoken today and those who relations with the great abroad—I say that as a former have interested themselves in this issue more fully. UN official—I think it is extraordinarily important Certainly it is the intention of our Prime Minister and that my colleagues and I reflect carefully on what has this Government that this inquiry does indeed enjoy been said today. It is enormously important that any that confidence and that it looks in as forensic a way inquiry, whatever form it takes, enjoys public confidence. as possible at the issues which drew us into this war, There is some truth in the words of my noble friend and that we do not hide behind just a defence of the Lord Desai that this war has so divided us as a country outcome as having overthrown Saddam Hussein. We that whatever the form, process, terms and manner of all recognise that there are wars of choice. It may well the inquiry, we may at this stage still be at the point be that we wish with hindsight that we had intervened where not everybody will accept its results because, as against Pol Pot or today in Darfur. The fact is that I have said, the wounds go deep. these are wars of choices. There are brutal leaders out there. We have to be selective when we take them on Like others in this House, I think it is important and we need to do it in a framework which is consistent that whenever we raise this subject we do not forget to with international law and in a way which enjoys pay tribute to all of those in our Armed Forces who the support and understanding of the international have served with such courage and dedication over the community expressed through the Security Council. last six years in Iraq and over an even longer period in The question was raised whether any of this inquiry Afghanistan. We especially note, as others have done, can be held in public. I think that it is worth quoting the 179 who have lost their lives serving in Iraq, and the letter that my right honourable friend the Prime who, along with our civilian staff and coalition partners, Minister sent today to Sir John Chilcot, in which he have made such a contribution, together with Iraqis confirmed that he was committed to, themselves, towards progress. Whatever the differences between us on the causes of the war, the circumstances “a thorough and independent inquiry”, under which it was entered into and the justness or and guaranteed the Government’s full co-operation. otherwise of it, I hope everybody in this House would The Prime Minister said: “As Privy Counsellors, you”—the agree that we have arrived at a point where there really committee— is dramatic improvement in the situation in Iraq, and “will have unhindered access to government documents”, that we can look back on what we are leaving behind and that he will ensure that that happens. He continued: which is an Iraq where violence is at its lowest levels “I hope as part of this that you will consider whether it is since 2003 and where Iraqis themselves have run successful possible for there to be a process whereby they”— provincial elections in January this year and are now witnesses— planning for national elections. “give their contributions on oath”. While challenges remain, it is the case that perhaps As to the public nature of it, he said: was not so when we had that debate 18 months ago that a corner does seem to have been turned. An effort “It is also essential that the families of those who gave their which we all feared might be cursed with a dreadful lives in Iraq are properly consulted on the nature of the inquiry. I hope therefore that you will be able to meet them as part of the ending has indeed arrived at a situation where we can preparations and as you continue your work, to explain how you all hold our heads high and say that we have made an are proceeding. This could be, at their request, in public or important contribution as a country to a new and private”. free and democratic Iraq which is now able to focus on And then he quite properly allows further discretion issues such as the improvement of its citizens’ lives to Sir John and his colleagues to establish the exact and their participation in the country’s future without form and conduct of their inquiry by saying: having to fear the authoritarian, brutal rule of “Once you have established your plans in more detail, I would the past. encourage you to hold an open public session to explain in greater A lot of issues have been raised today which turn to depth the significant scope and breadth of the inquiry”. the original subject of the debate about what are the I acknowledge that that does not meet the full lessons we should be seeking to learn from this war. I requirements of openness that have been raised today, think probably everybody would agree that the best but I also want to point out that, in a sense, the thing I can do in regard to those issues is to make thinking in this House about the inquiry has also sure—I do not think they will need any help from evolved in that regard. When we spoke in this House me—that Sir John Chilcot and his colleagues carefully on this subject in January 2008, the noble Lord, Lord read the Hansard of this debate to see the kinds of Fowler, said: issues that should be raised. Today I should concentrate “I believe that issues such as this should be investigated by a on the issue of the inquiry itself and the terms under committee of privy counsellors together with others with expert which it is being held. knowledge. It is right that it should be … answerable to Parliament. It is certainly not the occasion for a lengthy judicial inquiry, such While I very much appreciated the support I got as that into Bloody Sunday, or, for that matter, the marathon of from these Benches, I find myself oddly forced to do the noble and learned Lord, Lord Scott. The focus of such an something I never expected to do, which is to jump to inquiry should not be on blame, but on learning the lessons—lessons the defence of lawyers. Having lived in America for which might help us in formulating policy elsewhere”.—[Official too long, I always find this a hard thing to do, but I Report, 24/1/08; col. 342.] think, while it is perfectly the case, of course, that It is certainly also the case that, in the other House, lawyers disagree, if this inquiry is ever to have the the opposition Front Bench have similarly stressed the confidence of public opinion, it is enormously important importance of a privy counsellor inquiry, including 1263 Iraq[LORDS] Climate Projections 1264

[LORD MALLOCH-BROWN] and heat and we felt it important that military operations the fact that it might make only limited public disclosure. were brought to a conclusion first. From Gallipoli On 11 June 2007, in response to a question during a onwards—and even before—that has been the tradition. debate in the other place, William Hague, the shadow I will make one further response, to the very important Foreign Secretary, said: intervention of the noble Lord, Lord Butler. I am “That is one of the arguments for having a Privy Council sorry that I cannot respond more fully to his forceful inquiry. It would have to make its own judgment, as would any critique. The Government will de facto seek approval inquiry at any stage, about how much of the information could be from Parliament for the inquiry, courtesy of the published. All the conclusions would certainly have to be published”.—[Official Report, 11/6/07; col. 535.] Opposition, who have tabled a resolution for next So I think that there has been a very genuine debate week. This will now be an inquiry that, one way or about the appropriate degree of public disclosure. another, does or does not get the endorsement of the other place. Lord King of Bridgwater: My Lords, I may have misunderstood the Minister, but it seems from what he 4.51 pm has said and read out from the letter that the whole Lord Fowler: My Lords, we have one or two minutes, form of this inquiry is up in the air. The Prime and I thank everyone who has spoken. In many ways it Minister seems to have passed it to Sir John Chilcot to has been an outstanding debate, although occasionally determine, after meeting the families of those involved the time restraints have been irritating. It is impossible or who have lost their lives, the exact arrangements for to go through all the speeches; there were some the inquiry. Is that correct? outstanding and devastating ones. I pay particular tribute to the speeches of the noble Lord, Lord Butler, Lord Malloch-Brown: My Lords, the Prime Minster and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Steyn, from the has given Sir John Chilcot a certain discretion to find Cross Benches. Every issue was raised: the legality of a form that enjoys as broad a competence as ever. the whole operation, whether intelligence justified the However, I think that there is a bridge that the Prime position, and what meaningful consultation took place Minister does not wish to cross, and that is not to before the inquiry was launched. move to the point of a judicial public inquiry where it The question that remains unanswered, even after became necessary for witnesses to engage legal counsel what the Minister said, is, “What is the presumption in and to get into a protracted public defence of their this inquiry?” Is the presumption that it should be an position in a way that risks continuing controversy open inquiry, or that it should be private and secret? If before conclusions have been arrived at, and, in the the presumption has changed, it makes a nonsense of worst of circumstances, for certain innocent individuals everything that the Prime Minister said on Monday. to be all over the press for weeks before they had the I am afraid that the Minister’s response at the end chance to rebut the claims made about their performance. was not adequate, through no fault of his own and I It is not correct that we have moved to a public inquiry make no complaint. We will come to this issue again—I but, in our anxiety that this inquiry enjoy public promise him that—but at this stage, I beg leave to support, we wish to give those leading it as much withdraw the Motion. discretion as possible. Motion withdrawn. Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, will the Minister explain why it is right to hold a public inquiry into the Climate Projections death of one man, investigating the way in which he died and other people were treated? There was a Statement proper public inquiry with a website being used and all 4.54 pm documents and transcripts of evidence being displayed there so that everybody knows what is going on. Why The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, should there be a public inquiry into that limited Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs instance, but not into something that concerns the (Lord Davies of Oldham): My Lords, with permission, whole of the war? I will repeat the Statement on climate projections made by the Secretary of State for the Environment in Lord Malloch-Brown: My Lords, the noble Lord the other place earlier today. has in a way answered his own question. It is precisely “With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to the vast scope of this inquiry—covering some eight make a Statement on the publication of new projections years, from two years before the conflict began through for the UK’s future climate. A summary will be placed to now, the end of the conflict—which means that, if in the Vote Office and full details can be found on the this is to be done with some dispatch, and conclusions Defra website. arrived at, it must be a process in which information The House knows that climate change is one of and disclosure are managed in an effective way. the greatest challenges we face. The world’s climate is Noble Lords must forgive me—I stood up late already changing; the 10 hottest years on record have because we had such a full discussion of the issues—for occurred since 1990, including every year between drawing the debate to a conclusion without having 2001 and 2006. In the UK, the 2003 heat wave led to answered many of the critical questions. However, I more than 2,000 excess deaths, and yet average will address the point about why, if it is a private temperatures that year were just 2 degrees higher than inquiry, we are only now entering into it. Again, the normal. In 2006, the south-east experienced a severe issue is, as the press debate has already shown, that drought. Eight million people in the region are dependent even a private inquiry generates a lot of controversy on rivers for their water supply. In 2007, we saw 1265 Climate Projections[18 JUNE 2009] Climate Projections 1266 widespread flooding across the country, and a storm We are taking action to tackle water scarcity and surge came within 10 centimetres of overtopping the improve water efficiency.For the first time all government defences at Great Yarmouth. departments are producing their own adaptation plans, The projections we are publishing today—more which they will publish by next spring. The NHS now than 4,000 maps on the website—give us a clear sense has a heat wave plan to protect vulnerable people from of what we might expect over the next 100 years. They hot weather. The Department for Transport has reviewed represent the best science we have on how our climate its design guidance for roads, looking at drainage is likely to change, and they are a call to action. I want capacity and new road surfaces. With Communities to thank the scientists at the Met Office Hadley Centre and Local Government, we are already working with and many others for bringing home to us how these over 50 local authorities that have made adapting to changes in our climate—with a greater likelihood of climate change a priority in their local area agreements. heat waves, flooding, drought, and coastal erosion—will All local authorities will, in future, have to consider affect our society, and how important it is that we adaptation in taking planning decisions and, from reach a deal at the UN climate change conference in today, all major government investment will have to Copenhagen this December. take into account the risks from climate change. We are, of course, already taking significant steps In the Climate Change Act, we took the power to to cut our emissions. With the Climate Change Act we require public bodies to adapt and to report on the became the first country in the world to set legally steps they are taking. Today, I am launching a consultation binding carbon budgets. Across the UK, the projections paper proposing the first 100 organisations—including show a range of climate changes up until the end of Network Rail, the National Grid, Ofwat and the the century based on three possible greenhouse gas Environment Agency—that will be required to tell us emissions pathways—high, medium and low. Broadly what they are doing. I am placing copies of this speaking, the world’s emissions are currently closest consultation in the Library of the House. to the medium pathway, although there is a risk we The economic case for acting now is very strong, as could still be heading for the high one. While we the Stern review made clear. By investing in flood cannot be absolutely sure what will happen in future defence, for example, we estimate that we can reduce and there are uncertainties as these projections are not the annual cost of flooding by 80 to 90 per cent in the a long-range weather forecast, they do show the years to come. There may also be some economic probabilities of potential changes for the United Kingdom, opportunities: for tourism and agriculture, businesses and it is a future we must avoid. The projections, based developing adaptation technologies, and jobs in new on the medium emissions scenario, show that by the infrastructure projects. Climate change is going to 2080s—within the lifetimes of our children and transform the way we live. These projections show us grandchildren—we could face an increase in average both the future we need to avoid and the future we summer temperatures of between 2 and 6 degrees need to plan for. So as well as cutting emissions, we celsius in the south-east, with a central estimate of have to start making changes today. I commend this 4 degrees. They show a decrease in average summer Statement to the House”. rainfall of 22 per cent in Yorkshire and Humber and My Lords, that concludes the Statement. in the south-east—which is already short of water—and an increase of 16 per cent in average winter rainfall in the north-west, with increases in the amount of rain 5.01 pm on the wettest days leading to a higher risk of flooding. Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My Lords, I thank the They also show a rise in the sea level for London of Minister for repeating the Statement made in another 36 centimetres. place earlier. I am grateful to him for the advance copy Temperatures would rise even more under the high of the text and for the opportunity of learning directly emissions pathway, which could mean peak summer at a briefing today from Professor Bob Watson, chief temperatures in London regularly reaching more than Defra scientist, and from Professor Julia Slingo, head 40 degrees. These results are sobering, and we know of the Met Office science team. that these changes will affect every aspect of our daily The picture painted by this Statement is serious and lives. The first clear message is that only by cutting demands our attention but is not a cause for panic. We emissions through a global deal in Copenhagen can can be grateful that we have this predictive model, we avoid some of the extreme changes that the projections which will help us to take steps to moderate and adapt describe. Even if we achieve our international target to to climate change. Vital though carbon reduction is—and limit global temperature rise to 2 degrees, we will still nothing in this Statement does other than to reinforce have to live with some level of change. This is because that message—it is, however, something that we shall it will take 30 years for past emissions to work through need to act on globally, and the key will be in the the system, so the next three decades of climate change Copenhagen summit. However, the particular lesson are already set. By 2040, what was exceptional in the of this Statement is the action that we shall need to summer of 2003 will become normal. So the second take nationally if we are to adapt to climate change. message of these projections is that we must plan to It is clear that all possible predictors—high, medium adapt to changes that are now unavoidable, and this is or low—follow a similar trend for the next 30 years. a job for all of us. That is because of the inertia built into the ocean That is why we have more than doubled spending system, and the past and inevitably continuing carbon on flood and coastal protection since 1997, and we concentrations in the upper atmosphere. The change are on course to provide better protection to around to an average temperature 2 degrees above the norm is 160,000 more homes across England. inevitable, and the minimum that we can anticipate. 1267 Climate Projections[LORDS] Climate Projections 1268

[LORD TAYLOR OF HOLBEACH] things. It is a depressing story.The Statement is appropriate While that may not sound much in itself, it is very coming now, given that earlier this week the Obama significant; it will be accompanied by wetter winters, Administration in America released a report, Global but far drier and hotter summers. That change in Climate Change Impacts in the United States, which seasonal rainfall patterns poses great challenges to told a similar story but, refreshingly in terms of the agriculture and horticulture, particularly at a time American Administration, recognising the challenges when demands for food security and the global pressures globally and nationally from climate change. That had on food supply are increasing, for we shall not be not been done previously. The report highlighted the facing climate change on our own. problems of rising sea levels, heavy downpours increasing, The key will be water, and the need to invest in the retreating glaciers and thawing permafrost. It was a infrastructure that enables us to conserve water supplies very similar list of trials and tribulations to that which from our wetter winters to assist us through the drier we see today in the UK report on climate projections. summers. Water management will become a key issue, It is interesting that the report points out that there and water companies will need to look at the models has been a 1 degree centigrade increase in temperatures presented and plan for their investment programmes. since the 1970s. Again, there is the problem of more All infrastructure, as the Statement says, will need to heavy downpours. There has been a 4 per cent increase recognise the impact of those detailed predictive maps. since 2000, and there will be an increase in temperatures Likewise, flood prevention moves higher up the league of 4 degrees by 2080. There will be changes in rainfall table of priorities. The threat is not just of sea level patterns—less in the summer and more in the winter. rise; noble Lords will know of my interests as a I regret, perhaps, that the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, fenman in that. Paradoxically, in some ways, the hazards is not here to hear this evidence and argue against there are fairly easy to engineer out. No, for in line something which I note, particularly in this report, has with the dynamic of climate change, the predictions been peer-reviewed by 12 independent scientists and now show a greater risk of extreme weather events. ties in with other evidence from around the world. It Science points to more variations and more extreme would have been interesting to hear his take on this weather. Those who will be most at risk, whether from area. What is absolutely true and comes through in tidal surges or heat waves, will be those who live or this report is that climate change is happening, that we work in areas loosely described as flood plains, and have the problem of lags of at least 30 years, that the who are vulnerable to flash flooding. I emphasise that various issues we predicted are already happening, those areas are not necessarily the same as low-lying and that they will get worse over time. areas. Some may easily be thought to be unlikely to face flooding. The catastrophic flooding of two years However, the key thing about climate change is not ago could become a regular occurrence if we do not predicting it. One of the most telling sentences of the have the necessary investment in flood-protection Statement was: schemes and, in particular, the proper maintenance “We are, of course, already taking significant steps to cut our of water courses, sewers and drains. What progress emissions. With the Climate Change Act we became the first are the Government making on implementing the country in the world to set legally binding carbon”, recommendations of the Pitt report? targets. The action is still all around setting targets, The work of the scientists at the Met Office Hadley whereas the action needs to be around adaptation, as Centre, whose excellence we should acknowledge, has the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, outlined, and mitigation. given us an insight of which we will all need to take We are nowhere near where we need to be by our notice. It must be our hope that it will continue this national, let alone international, action. work, monitoring outturns and seeking corroboration. In July, the White Paper from the Climate Change Can the Minister confirm that this work will continue? Act will come forward from the Government, which Notwithstanding what may be achieved in Copenhagen will set out their full policies on these issues. We look to reduce global carbon emissions, we have to accept forward to that, but I remind the Minister that since that, even on the lowest predictions, we will have to 1997 carbon emissions in this country have declined come to terms with the effects of climate change here. hardly at all—by only 1 or 2 per cent. There has really Can the Minister confirm that Defra is the lead been a very flat line in terms of emissions decreasing. department in ensuring that the Government sustain I would like to hear from the Minister whether we the activities of other departments, agencies and will therefore state that we will stop the programme of contractors in following through climate change policy? coal-fired stations starting again. Will there be a real How successful has Defra been in this task? programme of energy saving, particularly in the Cutting emissions and energy efficiency are only Government’s aspirations for existing housing stock? part of the story. Adapting to this new world may be a Are we going to change that? What will we do to challenge, but the Government and all of us will be enable local government to implement adaptation through unable to ignore it. This Statement mentions the proper budget allocations? I do not particularly see consultation process. I hope that the Minister can those here. What will we do about transport systems convince me that this will be about action and not where carbon emissions are still going up? Does the aspiration. scenario painted by this report mean that, at last, we will get a reversal of the decision about Heathrow’s 5.06 pm third runway? Lord Teverson: My Lords, I, too, thank the Minister Strangely enough, I was first aware of this report for making the Statement. He made it in a suitably when I looked at the press this morning. It said that depressing tone—unlike the way he normally presents Cornwall and Devon will have the good life, with the 1269 Climate Projections[18 JUNE 2009] Climate Projections 1270 best wine regions, higher property prices, better summers We have set a target to reduce our water usage. In and milder winters. I live in Cornwall; that is great. London, 150 litres a day are consumed by the average Maybe we will have those, but what will really happen citizen, whereas in Berlin it is only 130 litres. We is global migration, decreasing biodiversity and an intend to move from 150 to 130 litres as soon as we increase in disease. All these will come to the UK. The can. We have established the Walker review to look at Government have rightly recognised that and published water meters and household charging. The vast majority this report. Now we need the action to make sure that of businesses are already metered but that is not the we adapt and mitigate. case with households, although there has been some progress on that matter. 5.11 pm The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, emphasised the Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I am grateful to broader picture and the need for action, and I hope both noble Lords. If I look doleful to the noble Lord, that I shall be able to show him clear action in response Lord Teverson, it is because I am. This is a very to our climate change situation. I know that he regards serious Statement about the inevitability of some climate our current response as words in legislation and not change and the danger—if we do not take action—of action, but he will know that we intend to follow up something far more drastic. I have six grandchildren. I those words. owe it to them, as I do to the rest of the nation, to try The noble Lord mentioned a couple of specific to create a better future than the one that unrestrained points. Housing is an area in which people’s ability to climate change will produce for them. However, I adapt is notoriously slow, and that is certainly the case agree with the noble Lord, Lord Taylor. It is not a time with new build. However, he is right that we need to for panic but for considered action and preparation address ourselves to energy savings in the housing for making such action effective. stock. That is important, as it is in regard to transport. I also accept that, as the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, I think that the noble Lord will take some encouragement said, actions are more important than words. Actions from the fact that certain forms of transport, particularly are more important than targets, but without words rail, have shown a significant increase in energy savings and targets in legislation, there will be no basis on in recent years. That is a reflection of the current which action can be mounted. Therefore, the noble structure of, and investment in, the rail industry, but Lord must recognise that we are the first country in that is not enough. the world to introduce legislation that establishes this The noble Lord will know from the Statement that framework. He is absolutely right that we should now we are looking at new measures for the transport see what that action will be. I give him the obvious system. We have to deal with the problem of road reassurance that, of course, we intend to act on these surfaces, which at present create, rather than absorb, matters as rapidly as we can. That includes such heat. We also have to tackle the need for effective international action as taking our case to, and winning drainage and water control on our road surfaces. The the support of, the nations in Copenhagen in December. French do that already because they have been dealing We all recognise that there is no national solution to with a different climate in the south of France—the these issues; they require action on all our parts. one that we anticipate will inevitably be ours in two or The noble Lord, Lord Taylor, rightly concentrated three decades’ time. Therefore, we have time to adapt, on water. He is right that we need to conserve water. as we need to do, and those are areas in which we can The issue is one of water management. The noble learn from what others are already doing. Lord also mentioned that we could see a period of extreme weather events. He knows that we will shortly 5.17 pm introduce legislation on flood prevention. I assure him that we take on board his points about the Pitt review. Lord Puttnam: My Lords, I congratulate the Minister It was published on 17 December last year. The on what is a very useful, although it is hard to say Government’s response was to commit to reporting “welcome”, report. I want to touch on something that further on implementation approximately every six the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, said. There is a need months, beginning this month. We will honour that for a broader, more holistic take on all this. I have no commitment and will produce our responses to the doubt in my mind that the initial impact on the UK Pitt report by the end of the month. We are on target will come from climate change migrants and refugees. to produce the report, as we said we would. I am sure That will be the first time that this issue comes home that the noble Lord will await that development, much in a very serious way. It would be good to know what as I will enjoy presenting the issues to the House at the Government’s policies are in that respect and that time. whether any international planning is taking place on On water management, as was indicated in the what to do when the situation explodes, either in Statement, we clearly have to ensure that water companies Bangladesh or in sub-Saharan Africa, and we suddenly adopt a far more strategic approach, particularly to see possibly vast numbers of people moving through water conservation. It means heavy investment. We southern Spain and up through Europe. What will our will all need to be more efficient in water demand and response be? controlling leakage. When there have been water shortages An excellent report was recently published by UCL in the past, we have all been aware of the very grim entitled Managing the Health Effects of Climate Change. figures attributed to leakage as opposed to usage. Supported by the WHO, it puts forward the belief that Those issues, which relate overwhelmingly to the supply climate change will represent far and away the greatest of water, need to be addressed and will require significant threat to health in the 21st century. That, again, badly investment. needs to be taken into account. 1271 Climate Projections[LORDS] Climate Projections 1272

[LORD PUTTNAM] longer because of the time lag and because of the Finally, I reread, and commend to the House, the evidence from some of the biggest emitters—particularly speeches made by Sir Winston Churchill in the House China and India—that they are not yet signed up to of Commons from 1935 to 1937 on the subject of the measures that will be necessary to achieve prevention. rearmament. I suggest that we very much take note of In the medium term, surely we are going to have to what he said and the climate in which he tried to make principally concentrate on adaptation. I am not suggesting his warnings. Opposition to those warnings tended to for a moment that we should abandon the longer-term be made on economic and political grounds. It was policies of prevention. not that anyone doubted that there was a problem; it I want to mention two examples. First, I heard a was simply that it was a very inconvenient problem. I talk upstairs in one of the all-party groups from am concerned about the possibility that climate change Thames Water. We asked when we are going to have to will become a politically inconvenient problem and have the second, lower barrier across the Thames. The will therefore not receive the attention that, without answer was, “We are not going to have to have that for doubt, it badly deserves. 100 years”. Does this report change that? Secondly—here I am relying on what I read in the Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, on the latter press this morning, and I am not sure whether it was in point, it is the duty of all of us to build up the the Statement—one of the things picked out by the necessary degree of public opinion to change the press was that this was going to have an effect on definition from politically inconvenient to politically the siting of nuclear power stations. A large number of necessary. That is what Statements like this set out to the sites are beside various parts of the coast, which is do in terms of engendering a debate in which, I have right, both for keeping them away from centres of not the slightest doubt, there will be a great deal of population and also for the use of cooling water. Is consensual activity, as evidenced by the two Front-Bench this going to change? Is there going to be a different responses today. We all recognise that this is beyond planning approach to the siting of nuclear power one nation to solve, and beyond one Government in stations? If so, I suggest to the noble Lord that that one nation to solve. We are talking about decades for needs to be made abundantly clear very soon. As the there to be successful action. The nation, therefore, noble Lord’s colleague, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of has to be alerted to these issues and convinced of the Kings Heath, constantly reminds this House, a huge necessity for what my noble friend has identified as programme is going ahead on that, which is needed inconvenient action. A great deal of political action is urgently. One needs to know whether people are going inconvenient at the time at which it is carried out; that to have to change the basis on which they are devising is the nature of political leadership. their plans for the new nuclear renaissance. Those are On the international measures, my noble friend some important questions on which there needs to be identified the most difficult one. When climate change, much greater clarity. as it is already doing, affects, in very adverse circumstances, certain sections of the world so as to render them effectively uninhabitable, how does the world react? Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I am grateful to That is a challenging question. As a starter for one, let the noble Lord. The report is given by my department me say that all of us in the other place had Bangladeshi because it is not a climate change report; it is a constituents. Bangladesh has been subjected to something meteorological report about temperature change. It is pretty close to climate change of this kind for several not a weather forecast, but it is projection of temperature decades. The floods there are such that thousands of change, and we are responsible for that as the department people lose their lives and the impact on the British for the environment. The noble Lord will say that a community of Bangladeshis is huge. They are often great deal of the action is bound to be carried out by low earners and they make a huge contribution back the Department of Energy and Climate Change. He home. How will the international community react? will be right, because that department is responsible That will certainly be a crucial issue on the agenda for for the Climate Change Committee, which is a monitor the United Nations and world organisations. Migration and enactor of a great deal of the climate change will have to be managed, but some migration is bound legislation that we need to enact and whose powers to occur when places become uninhabitable. we will use to reach the objectives that the noble Lord suggested. Lord Jenkin of Roding: My Lords, I will start with The noble Lord will have already adjusted to the an institutional question. For some months now, we fact that this is joined-up government. I recognise have had a Department of Energy and Climate Change. the emphasis that he puts on adaptation. That is the Yet today the Statement, which is entirely about climate earlier and quicker strategy, and we have indicated change, is being made by the noble Lord’s department— that we will expect all government departments, local the Department for Environment, Food and Rural authorities—some of which are already doing this—and Affairs. Could he just say a word about how the public institutions to develop plans to show how they responsibility for this is divided between the two are carrying out adaptation against targets related to departments? the phenomenon that the meteorologists have forecast. More specifically, how far is this latest report leading On prevention, of course the noble Lord is right to a change in the pace at which we are approaching that, internationally, carbon production is still on a these problems? I draw the distinction here between prolific level and increasing year on year because of prevention and adaptation. The point has been made the technologies used. He also knows how distant we by the Minister and others that prevention takes much still are from economic clean coal carbon storage. He 1273 Climate Projections[18 JUNE 2009] Climate Projections 1274 probably knows that better than anyone in the House. to improve the supply of energy to homes. We all That is a great limiting factor for China and India, but know how expensive solar power and solar panels are also for western economies. for householders and what a massive subsidy would On the Thames Barrier, if the worst scenario occurs, be required for each individual household if the according to our figures, it will be breached and we Government took the rap for that; it is therefore will need another one within 100 years. If we are difficult to justify. But he is right that in response to all successful in hitting the targets that we expect and these issues we will have to concentrate on all aspects intend to hit for moderating temperature change, and of energy usage. Home usage is a very important therefore climate change, the present Thames Barrier dimension of that. will be sufficient and effective for 100 years at least. The noble Lord will know that the siting of nuclear power stations relates to the identification of erosion Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville: My Lords, I factors. He knows that there are parts of East Anglia declare an intellectual interest as someone who was where we could not dream of putting a power station present at the full-day seminar on climate change of in the immediate future, but he also knows where we the then Prime Minister—now the noble Baroness, are entirely secure in the coastal areas. With nuclear Lady Thatcher—in 1989, 20 years ago. power, above all things, the Government are bound to The Statement refers to, go for the coastal areas, for the reasons that he suggested. “three possible greenhouse gas emissions pathways—high, medium By the same token, they must be secure. That will need and low. Broadly speaking the world’s emissions are currently to be identified. closest to the medium pathway, although there is a risk we could still be heading for the high one”. Lord Greaves: My Lords, when we were discussing The Statement alludes to different effects on the different this a few years ago and some of us were talking about parts of the United Kingdom but curiously does not adaptation, we were denounced as proposing undesirable identify the UK’s current pathway overall. What is it? diversions from the real task. I am glad that this is now Given the 40 small island states in our world at understood. We are told that this is not a weather greatest danger of flooding, may I idiosyncratically forecast; it is certainly a climate forecast. I am reminded suggest that each of our British counties might voluntarily of the old standard A-level geography question: “Britain adopt one or other of them and make an economic possesses weather not climate: discuss”. Climate is contribution to their defences as a way of educating now coming home to roost. ourselves in a manner which would appeal to the I want to ask the Minister a specific question about imagination of our traditional British ethos. home insulation and improving home energy. He will remember, as I do, 40 or so years ago when vast numbers of terraced houses in areas such as the north Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the noble Lord’s of England and south Wales had no inside bathrooms last suggestion was extremely interesting, and we should or inside lavatories, and were pouring vast amounts of look at it. Something similar to it in the past has filth out of their chimneys from open coal fires. Those enlivened the experience of children in education and problems were solved by massive efforts from Government caused them to understand other parts of the world in partnership, as people would now say, with the with difficulties. He is saying that this is a graphic way owners of those houses. It was a combination of in which we might get the adult population more carrot and stick to get inside bathrooms and lavatories effectively linked in to problems and how they can be installed and to convert to smokeless fuels. Are not resolved. present efforts to convert similar housing—to give On the three paths, although he is not here to them much greater energy efficiency and to reduce answer questions, I am a little tempted to ask the substantially the 20 per cent of our CO2 emissions noble Lord just what effective action was taken in the which go on home heating and water heating in homes— eight years after that analysis was carried out at that feeble in relation to what is needed? Schemes such as famous conference in 1989. I am glad of his support Warm Front are just tackling the problem at the edges. for government action at all times now that we are A much greater effort is required across the board to addressing ourselves to the issue. concentrate on those people who are most in fuel Where are we on this? Britain continues to consume poverty, on the basis of the old installation of inside energy at levels similar to those of that period, but bathrooms and lavatories and the smokeless zones. the big change is surely the very rapid growth of the far-eastern economies, the Chinese economy being Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the adaptation the outstanding one. In 1989, it had not really reached of British housing which the noble Lord identified in the pitch that it has reached over the past decade or so. the past took place over a very long timescale indeed. Once one starts to look at the growth rates of 12 per He is gesturing to me that it was done in 10 years; I cent or more a year for an economy, by definition the dispute that, and it is certainly not the kind of thing energy consumed by that economy and the emissions that one does, if I can keep the metaphor going, at the contributed by that consumption of energy—particularly flick of a switch. He must recognise that we want to by the worst of all carbon producers, which on the avoid the waste of energy in homes because that is a whole China and India have tended to be—are the significant part of the equation. It is important that features that make the world position much more we do something both in regard to home insulation difficult, threatening and challenging in every way and the nature of the electricity that is supplied to than was probably the case in the halcyon days of the homes. He knows that it is difficult in certain areas noble Lord way back in 1989. 1275 Climate Projections[LORDS] Armed Forces Order 2009 1276

Lord Haskel: My Lords, the Statement repeated by One part of the work needed to achieve full my noble friend said that all the major government implementation is the significant number of statutory departments will take climate change into account in instruments that we need to bring into force. Close to their investments, but the point of the report is that 50 have been laid in the past few months. Of these, adaptation is a local matter. Government departments eight are subject to affirmative resolution and must be each have a scientist who can presumably take care of debated by both Houses. This afternoon we are debating this, but is my noble friend satisfied that there is all eight. enough local knowledge, and that there are enough I begin by saying a few words about each of these scientists at a local level who will take adaptation into orders, starting with the continuation order. The 2006 Act account at a local level? continues the constitutional arrangements under which service legislation must be renewed by Parliament Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, that is a very each year. The continuation order, therefore, provides good point. My instinctive answer is that there are for the renewal, for a further year, of the Act itself, and never enough scientists for the challenges that face an of the old Armed Forces legislation, until they are advanced economy such as ours at present. However, repealed when the 2006 Act comes into force in October. 50 local authorities have already signed up to recognition The 2006 Act and the three service discipline Acts of the necessity for adaptation and are prepared to will expire on 8 November 2009 unless they are renewed follow strategies that meet expectations and targets in before then by such an order. The Armed Forces, those terms. Is that enough? No, because it is only a Army, Air Force and Naval Discipline Acts (Continuation) fraction of the total of local authorities. Is science key Order 2009, therefore, provides for all four Acts to to this? Probably not. Local knowledge is certainly continue in force for a further year. Notwithstanding important, as is the ability to tap into the right strategies this, I can confirm that the service discipline Acts will to be pursued. They will have to be infused with local be repealed when the 2006 Act comes into force in perspectives on what is necessary, but I would have October. thought that we could communicate the science effectively I turn to the Part 5 regulations. The Armed Forces and usefully to local authorities so that they know (Part 5 of the Armed Forces Act 2006) Regulations which routes to go down. 2009 provide for matters connected with the investigation of service offences and charging. Part 5 of the 2006 Earl Cathcart: My Lords— Act introduces a brand new set of provisions for the Armed Forces, in terms of how the roles of the Lord Tunnicliffe: My Lords, I am afraid that the commanding officer, the service police and the Director time for questions is over. of Service Prosecutions—the DSP, as he is known—will interact in future. The main changes are to ensure that allegations of Armed Forces, Army, Air Force and Naval more serious offences are investigated by the service Discipline Acts (Continuation) Order 2009 police, and that such allegations must be sent by the Motion to Approve service police direct to the DSP for a decision on whether a charge should be brought. Similarly, a 5.38 pm commanding officer may not deal with certain serious allegations at a summary hearing. Rather, he must Moved By Baroness Taylor of Bolton refer the case to the DSP for him to consider. That the draft order laid before the House on The Act itself specifies certain offences, such as 13 May be approved. murder, which are subject to these safeguards. However, the regulations also specify circumstances that become Relevant Document: 16th Report from the Joint Committee subject to these safeguards too. These are important on Statutory Instruments safeguards since they will help to ensure that the service police and the Director of Service Prosecutions The Minister for International Defence and Security will be able to investigate and consider all appropriate (Baroness Taylor of Bolton): My Lords, as the House cases. will know, the statutory instruments are all affirmative I turn to the enlistment regulations. The Armed and follow the Armed Forces Act 2006. The current Forces (Enlistment) Regulations 2009 are to be made service discipline Acts date back to the 1950s, and over under Section 328 of the 2006 Act. They describe the the years they have been renewed and amended at process leading to the enlistment of a civilian into the regular intervals. Armed Forces and, largely, replicate the current procedure, Work to consider a possible single system of service with updates to the language and harmonisation of law began in 2001 and culminated in the Bill that was previous minor differences. The regulations are now introduced at the end of 2005. This was the largest and on a tri-service basis. So, for example, a person previously arguably the most significant piece of legislation that “entering” service in the Royal Navy will now “enlist” the Ministry of Defence has ever put before Parliament. just like the two other services. The resulting Armed Forces Act 2006 harmonises Enlistment provisions are administrative matters and modernises the legislation while keeping the that the Defence Council is best placed to be responsible commanding officer at the heart of service discipline. for. Historically, therefore, they have been promulgated Full implementation of the 2006 Act is due on 31 October in Defence Council regulations that have not been this year. subject to any parliamentary scrutiny. However, because 1277 Armed Forces Order 2009[18 JUNE 2009] Armed Forces Order 2009 1278 service personnel do not have contracts of employment, court is also able to deal with members of the Armed it was considered appropriate that the regulations Forces who act in breach of a service community should be subject to parliamentary scrutiny. The Defence order imposed by a service court. The aim of the Council regulations under the 2006 Act are therefore regulations is to ensure that the service offender is being made by statutory instrument. sentenced in a comparable manner to a civilian being The regulations are subject to affirmative resolution sentenced for a civilian offence. So, if the service because they include provisions about the enlistment offender being sentenced has committed the service of young people under the age of 18, with the consent offence while released from service custody, the civilian of people specified in the regulations. The regulations court must take this aggravating factor into account in also make it clear that no one under the age of 16—the the same way as it would where a civilian commits an school leaving age—may validly be enlisted into the offence while on bail. On the same basis, the civilian Armed Forces. However, the regulations do recognise court can give credit for periods when an offender was the possibility of recruiting officers acting in good kept in service custody since being charged in the same faith but nevertheless enlisting people who are under way that it can give credit for periods of remand in the age of 16, and provide protection to recruiting civilian custody. officers in such circumstances. This is most likely to The Court Martial (Prosecution Appeals) Order 2009 occur if young people from outside the United Kingdom provides for the prosecution to appeal against rulings seek to enlist in the Regular Forces because their made in court martial trials where, if the ruling is not documentation might not be as clear as in the UK. overturned, the accused will have to be acquitted. These powers and procedures closely follow those in For young people aged between 16 and 18, the the civilian system. The order also makes provision for regulations include safeguards to provide added protection offences of contravention of reporting restrictions. for this potentially vulnerable group. Most importantly, The order replaces and revokes two earlier statutory a young person cannot be enlisted without the consent instruments which contained similar provisions in order of his or her parents or a person with parental to align the provisions with the scheme and language responsibility. If the young person lives with both of of the 2006 Act. his or her parents, he or she must obtain the consent of them both before enlisting into the Armed Forces. The There is one small matter in connection with the regulations require the consent of both parents where order that I should like to draw to the attention of the the recruit lives with them both to avoid the potentially House. Article 26(2)(b) of the order refers to a “single difficult situation of one parent agreeing to the enlistment judge” of the Court Martial Appeal Court which and the other not. On the other hand, if the young should in fact be a reference to “the full court”. It is person lives with only one parent, then that person clear from the context that this is a straightforward must consent to the enlistment, and if the young error. There is no room for doubt about the intended person does not live with either parent, then he or she purpose and effect of the provision and my department need obtain the consent of only one parent. therefore intends to correct this small error at the printing stage. I mention it here in order that Members Once a young person is enlisted into the Regular with an interest in the subject are aware of the correction Armed Forces, the services themselves have additional that is being made. safeguards for the protection of such young people. Hence, until a young person reaches the age of 18, he The Armed Forces (Powers of Stop and Search, or she cannot be deployed into an operational theatre. Search, Seizure and Retention) Order 2009 supplements the provisions of the 2006 Act which lay down the I turn now to the court martial rules. The 2006 Act broad powers of the service police to stop and search establishes a standing court martial, replacing the members of the Armed Forces, carry out searches current system of ad hoc courts martial that are following arrest and enter places to search for and convened for trying individual offences. The rules of seize evidence. The order includes provisions broadly procedure for this new standing court are set out in the equivalent to ones in civilian legislation. For example, Armed Forces (Court Martial) Rules 2009. These broadly the order allows the service police to enter certain follow the rules that apply in the civilian system, but premises in order to search for evidence when a person they also reflect the different make-up of the court is arrested for a serious service offence. It also includes martial, involving a civilian judge, known as a judge reserve powers under which a commanding officer advocate, and lay members who are usually officers or can act in an emergency where the service police are warrant officers but might be civilians in the rare not available. circumstances when a civilian is tried in the court On the Armed Forces Act 2006 (Consequential martial. These rules have been the subject of extensive Amendments) Order, commencement of the 2006 Act consultation with the services themselves, the Director will require consequential amendments to be made to of Service Prosecutions and the Judge Advocate-General, a wide range of existing primary and secondary legislation who recently wrote to the Minister for the Armed in order to ensure that it properly reflects the changes Forces confirming that he is satisfied with them. that the 2006 Act is introducing. Schedule 16 to the The Armed Forces (Civilian Courts Dealing with 2006 Act sets out the majority of the amendments Service Offences) (Modification of the Criminal Justice that need to be made to primary legislation. Under Act 2003) Regulations 2009 are to be made under Section 379 of the 2006 Act, the Secretary of State Section 271 of the 2006 Act. In rare circumstances, a for Defence has the power to make amendments to civilian court may try and sentence a member of the any legislation that is not covered in Schedule 16, Reserve Forces for a service offence. The main offences and that is the purpose of the Armed Forces Act 2006 are ones involving failure to attend for duty. A civilian (Consequential Amendments) Order 2009. 1279 Armed Forces Order 2009[LORDS] Armed Forces Order 2009 1280

[BARONESS TAYLOR OF BOLTON] this issue, and the recent Court of Appeal judgment, The departments that own the legislation have been at Question Time on Monday. As I mentioned then, consulted about the amendments we are making. The that judgment is causing serious operational problems amendments are mainly being made to secondary for the Armed Forces. Will the Minister undertake to legislation, although the order does amend some discuss with her colleagues the potential use of the primary legislation. proposed constitutional renewal Bill to include provisions I should like to make a further observation about relating to combat zones? the orders we are considering today in relation to the I want to call attention to the need for the Armed ECHR. The Government have given an undertaking Forces Act 2006 to be wholly renewed by 2011. What that Ministers moving instruments subject to the feedback has the Government received from those affirmative procedure will tell the House whether they within the Armed Forces and from other interested are satisfied that the legislation is compatible with the parties as a result of the distribution of the Armed rights provided in the European Convention on Human Forces manual? Are there any loose ends waiting to be Rights. The continuation order raises convention issues sorted out that might be incorporated in later versions? only in that it maintains in force service legislation. We Will the Minister confirm that her department is giving consider that this legislation is compatible with the serious thought—I am sure it is—to the new version convention rights. We also believe that all the other of the Armed Forces Act to ensure that it is implemented orders are compatible with convention rights. as smoothly as possible? The orders that we are considering today are a fundamentally important part of the work that is Lord Lee of Trafford: My Lords, from the Liberal being done to bring the Armed Forces Act 2006 into Democrat Benches, I support these eight orders. They force in October. They are very detailed and it is right represent a thorough updating of Armed Forces law, that I should spell out some of that detail today. The particularly in relation to enlistment, court-martial orders add a further level of detail to the primary and other disciplinary and prosecution matters. legislation which is itself a considerable piece of work. The Armed Forces (Enlistment) Regulations 2009 They replace a much greater volume of primary and will have a somewhat historic impact on the Royal secondary legislation, as well as replacing three separate Navy, in that it will mean recruits will no longer enter systems of law with a single system. Taken together, service but will be enlisted and, for the first time, will they set out a comprehensive system of service law be required to swear an oath of allegiance. We understand that we hope will serve the Armed Forces well for that the reason for the Royal Navy’s historic exemption many years to come. I commend them to the House. is that it is the oldest of the three services and was established by the Sovereign’s prerogative rather than Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, I thank the Minister by an Act of Parliament. The significance of this for explaining the statutory instruments. We welcome change, at least on a purely constitutional level, must them and the continued attention to discipline, not be overlooked; it raises many questions about why enlistment and other issues in the three services of our it is taking place now. Will it really improve or make Armed Forces. any difference to the way the services interact with All these orders regulate and affect in some way the each other? How does the Royal Navy see itself, and working relationship between the Armed Forces and how does it feel about this change? Will existing servicemen the population as a whole. The first is of fundamental be required to make a retrospective oath? importance, of course, because it is the mechanism I return to the bulk of these orders, which are whereby the Executive draws authority from Parliament largely uncontroversial. The House of Lords Merits of to maintain the Armed Forces for a further year. To Statutory Instruments Committee had little to say debate this issue gives us the opportunity to remind about them. The Armed Forces, Army, Air Force And ourselves and the Government that the Armed Forces, Naval Discipline Acts (Continuation) Order 2009 is an although an instrument of the Executive, are in fact a order that we consider each year, and we welcome it creature of Parliament. With that goes the opportunity again as we have done on so many other occasions to reflect that this is a two-way relationship: Parliament previously. creates the Armed Forces, and that gives us in Parliament The Armed Forces (Court Martial) Rules 2009 is a the responsibility to ensure that they are properly sensible way to proceed and we emphasise our sustained. commitment that the composition of the court martial Our fellow citizens who serve as members of the be drawn from each and every branch of the Armed Armed Forces are exactly that—members of a lawfully Forces. With regard to the Armed Forces (Part 5 of armed and disciplined force. In appropriate circumstances the Armed Forces Act 2006) Regulations 2009, which they have to use force, including, as necessary, lethal deal with the procedure for investigating offences and force—a lawful power to kill; in fact, a duty. It is referring cases and charges to the Director of Service precisely that body of law that so authorises them and Prosecutions, on 11 October 2006 the noble Lord, disciplines them in the power and duty that is now Lord Ramsbotham, made an important point about before us for our careful consideration. the need for a commanding officer to be kept regularly As our Armed Forces are so exceptionally entrusted, informed by the service policemen throughout an do the Government consider it necessary to revise the investigation and not merely when the case is referred relationship between our troops and the Human Rights to the DSP. The Minister at the time, the noble Lord, Act? Over the past decade, many senior military Lord Drayson, gave an undertaking that this would be professionals have voiced discontent with this legislation the case. Are the Government satisfied that this order being applied in a combat environment. We debated retains the spirit of that commitment and will the 1281 Armed Forces Order 2009[18 JUNE 2009] Armed Forces Order 2009 1282 noble Baroness confirm that the experience of the last strongly committed to the protection of the human few years has been one where commanding officers rights of our Armed Forces and we are extremely have had regular communication in such situations? worried about the implications of the recent court The Explanatory Memorandum for this regulation judgment. indicates that the statutory instrument can come into We do not want to open the door to routine legal force at different times for certain situations. Why is challenges to decisions made by service personal entrusted this being suggested and why the split? What is the with the conduct of operations. As I said on Monday, point of the differential? the Chief of the Defence Staff has sent a message to operational commanders. The noble Lord said that 6pm that decision was causing serious operational problems, Turning to the Armed Forces (Powers of Stop and but that should not be the case. As I think anyone who Search, Seizure and Retention) Order 2009, our view has read the message from the CDS will see—I have is that this is wholly commendable and it is wholly arranged for a copy to be placed in the Library—it commendable that the PACE provisions should be makes it very clear that we cannot have decisions extended in suitable form to members of the Armed made in split-second situations ploughed over, in a Forces. The Explanatory Memorandum refers to a totally unreal way, many months and possibly years new manual of service law which is currently being later. We are still considering what we should be doing prepared to provide guidance to take that forward, but we will certainly not allow a “on the single system of service law established under the Armed situation to develop where commanders cannot take Forces Act 2006”. the decisions they need to take. We have said that as Will the Government consider a simplified, general clearly as possible and the CDS has said it. I hope that brochure for servicemen? that is reassuring to those who are charged with that Turning to the Court Martial (Prosecution Appeals) significant responsibility. Order 2009, Regulation 16(5) now requires the judge The noble Lord also asked about the renewal situation advocate to issue a written certificate that he is given and whether the 2006 Act will have to be renewed in leave to appeal. This is eminently sensible in our view 2011. That is indeed the case because it is a quinquennial and to be welcomed. review. I think that much of the work done in recent Finally, I turn to the Armed Forces (Civilian Courts months to achieve this level of agreement on all of Dealing with Service Offences) (Modification of Criminal these orders will help make the renewal process that Justice Act 2003) Regulations 2009. Here also the much easier, because so much work has already been provisions are to be wholly welcomed, especially in done. I pay tribute to all those who have been working modification to Sections 143 and 240 of the Criminal on the many statutory instruments that have arisen as Justice Act 2003. Committing offences while on bail a consequence of the changes in the 2006 Act. It is a are at the core of the overall criminal sentencing formidable task and they deserve recognition for it. process. Time spent in custody, to which the noble The noble Lord, Lord Lee, mentioned a specific Baroness referred, pre-trial or sentence being taken point—while welcoming all the updating, he asked a into account for the purposes of the overall sentence is question about the Royal Navy. I am told that the a fundamental principle to which each defendant is enlistment regulations do not require all recruits to entitled. It is only right that both differing principles swear an oath of allegiance, but the services’ intention should apply equally to service personnel. is that in future all newly enlisted people will do so, and the Royal Navy is content with that change. It will Baroness Taylor of Bolton: My Lords, I am very not be a retrospective change, but it will come across pleased that there has been broad welcome for the the board in the future. The noble Lord also asked moves that we are making and for the statutory about the situation with commanding officers and instruments that we are discussing today. I will try to whether they will be kept informed as has been suggested. deal with all points that have been raised. In fact, the order requires that the commanding officer The noble Lord, Lord Astor, mentioned the be informed. So I can repeat the reassurance given relationship of Parliament with the Armed Forces and when the legislation was initially going through Parliament. the fact that there is a body of law which both authorises As for parts of the order coming into effect at them and disciplines them. It is right that we should different times, it is true that Article 5 will come into remind ourselves of that relationship from time to effect at a different time. However, one early provision time because we depend so much on the work that allows procedural steps to be taken in advance to they do and we do not always have sufficient opportunity ensure that everything moves as smoothly as possible to record our admiration and thanks for that work. later. The other point raised concerned the manual, The noble Lord also raised some questions about which both the noble Lords, Lord Astor and Lord where they stood and went back to the point that we Lee, asked about. It is not available yet. Because these were discussing on Monday about the impact of the regulations do not come into force completely until Human Rights Act, and in particular the case that was the end of October, the manual is still being drafted in the topic of that question in terms of Article 2. He close consultation with the services. It is important suggested that perhaps we should use the constitutional that that is the case and that it is as user-friendly as renewal Bill to change that situation. I am not sure possible. The noble Lord, Lord Lee, suggested that that that would even be possible were there a problem, there could be a slimmed-down version. I am not sure but I think that the noble Lord has got to understand whether that is appropriate but I am sure that it will that we are still, as I said on Monday, discussing and be possible to look at it and move towards it if at taking advice on what is the best way forward. We are all possible. 1283 Armed Forces Order 2009[LORDS] Business Rate Supplements Bill 1284

[BARONESS TAYLOR OF BOLTON] Armed Forces (Powers of Stop and Search, Finally, the whole intention behind all the consultations Search, Seizure and Retention) Order 2009 and the time taken is to ensure that the new system is implemented as smoothly as possible. It is helpful that we are discussing these orders this evening so that Armed Forces Act 2006 (Consequential there can be even more time to ensure that everything moves smoothly. I thank noble Lords for their support. Amendments) Order 2009 Motions to Approve Motion agreed. 6.10 pm Armed Forces (Part 5 of the Armed Forces Moved By Baroness Taylor of Bolton Act 2006) Regulations 2009 That the draft orders and regulations laid before the House on 5, 8 and 19 May and 1 and 2 June be Armed Forces (Enlistment) approved. Regulations 2009 Relevant documents: 15th and 16th Reports from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.

Armed Forces (Court Martial) Rules 2009 Motions agreed.

Armed Forces (Civilian Courts Dealing Business Rate Supplements Bill with Service Offences) (Modification of Returned from the Commons the Criminal Justice Act 2003) Regulations 2009 The Bill was returned from the Commons with an amendment and reasons. The Commons amendment and reasons were ordered to be printed. Court Martial (Prosecution Appeals) Order 2009 House adjourned at 6.10 pm. GC 287 Welfare Reform Bill[18 JUNE 2009] Welfare Reform Bill GC 288

April 2020; I do not think that that was the intent Grand Committee behind the amendment, but rather that it was to probe, as the noble Lord explained. That is why that Thursday, 18 June 2009. provision is there. The progression-to-work pathfinders are for parents Welfare Reform Bill of working age with a young child. In the rare cases where claimants of state pension age have a youngest Committee (4th Day) child in this age group, they would still have voluntary access to the support on offer. For those parents who 2pm are about to reach pension age and have a youngest child aged three to six years old, we will still require them to attend a work-focused interview so that an Clause 2 : Work-related activity: income support adviser can discuss with them the benefits of entering claimants and partners of claimants work and the support available to help them do so. This is in line with proposals under Clause 28 to Amendment 44 introduce work-focused interviews for people of pension age. Moved by Lord Skelmersdale When introducing this measure, we will not roll this 44: Clause 2, page 6, leave out lines 1 to 4 out immediately to all parents who qualify. Instead, we would want to introduce the progression-to-work Lord Skelmersdale: I wonder whether it is only me model over time. When rolling out this initiative we who thinks that it is perhaps appropriate that on the will take a number of factors into account, which may fourth day of Committee we are starting at the beginning include the age of the parent. I hope that that has of page 6 of the Bill. Amendment 44 is, I hope, a dealt with each of the two main points that the noble simple point—although some of my simple points Lord has pressed me on and, accordingly, I ask him to have elicited so much conversation on previous days withdraw his amendment. that perhaps it is not as simple as all that. I would merely like the Minister to confirm that Lord Skelmersdale: Certainly I will withdraw my this is a reference to the phasing of age cohorts made amendment. I was interested to hear the Minister say necessary by the rising pension age. If this is the case, that not everything will happen at the same time. as I assume, could he please relate that to the benefits Perhaps we can develop that thought a little later systems being restructured under this Bill and say if, as today. It is clear that parents of pensionable age need a result, there will be any difference in the benefits to be defined. I accept that, but I wonder how many paid the individuals who fall into different cohorts—and, such people exist in the system. Is there any way of if so, why? New Section 2D(8)(d) says that, telling how many parents of pensionable age we are “any reference to a person attaining pensionable age is … a talking about? I leave that thought with the Minister reference to the time when a woman born on the same day as the as it is probably unfair to bounce him with it now. man would attain pensionable age”. But where are the references? I could not find them Lord McKenzie of Luton: If the noble Lord leaves earlier in the clause when I had a quick look through. I me with that thought I will see whether we can produce therefore assume that these references will be in the some data. regulations flowing from the clause. Perhaps the Minister can help me out. I beg to move. Lord Skelmersdale: In that case I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Department for Work and Pensions (Lord McKenzie of Amendment 44 withdrawn. Luton): Dealing with the noble Lord’s last point, about the references, I presume he means references to “under Amendment 45 pensionable age”. Paragraphs (a) and (b) of new Section 2D(2) pick up somebody who, Moved by Lord Skelmersdale “is under pensionable age, and … a member of a couple”. 45: Clause 2, page 6, line 13, after “an” insert ““individual” I think that that is the reference that the noble Lord sought. Lord Skelmersdale: This is rather different. I may Dealing with the amendment more fully, it is not have got myself into a muddle thinking about the two our intention to introduce the progression-to-work rates of employment and support allowance. pathfinders for those parents who are of pensionable Amendments 45, 47, 48, 50 and 51 constitute quite a age. However, in order to achieve that intention, it is large group. It has been made clear several times—the necessary for the provisions to define the meaning of illustrative examples that the noble Lord kindly sent, “pensionable age” and to do so in a way which will which the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, described as treat men and women on an equal basis. If this panglossian the last time we met, confirmed this—that amendment is accepted, men aged 60 or over would be the requirements to undertake work-related activity treated differently to women of the same age until are an unofficial contract between the personal adviser retirement ages are equalised for men and women in and the participant. Perhaps on reflection I should not GC 289 Welfare Reform Bill[LORDS] Welfare Reform Bill GC 290

[LORD SKELMERSDALE] circumstances are fully taken into consideration before have used the word “unofficial” since sanctions can the plan is finalised and agreed. This is important so apply for certain reasons. Indeed, I have noted from that parents, particularly if they have mental health the Minister’s speeches that very often he thinks of conditions or learning difficulties, feel in control of sanctions first and the reason for them second, which their situation as they are progressively encouraged to is why I became a little exasperated the other day when move in to new and more challenging activities. I interrupted the noble Lord by repeating the word We will ensure that safeguards are in place so that “No” several times. claimants are not put in a situation where they are Nevertheless, the contract is what I might call person- being asked to comply with a requirement that is specific, so although I am not particularly wedded to unreasonable or inappropriate to their individual the word “individual” in this group of amendments, circumstances. This will include circumstances where the action plan is individualised—a point made in appropriate childcare is not available, as we have several of the amendments tabled by the noble Baroness, discussed extensively. We will also ensure that anyone Lady Thomas. I am not sure that “individualised” is a facing a possible sanction can easily rectify their particularly good word—“personalised”might be better. situation and should not therefore suffer unnecessary It would give a great deal of confidence to participants hardship or concern. During this joint process, if the Bill were amended as the amendment suggests. I however, I believe that we need to maintain the ability feel this particularly because all changes to social to direct a person to an activity, if after receiving the security laws are viewed with the greatest suspicion by appropriate support, opportunity and guidance they those affected, or likely to be affected. The Minister remain reluctant to improve their circumstances. If cannot but be aware of the consternation of disabled there is a failure to carry out the agreed activity people and their advisers that was expressed when outlined in the plan, it could lead to further action discussing the first Welfare Reform Bill. None of us and possibly a sanction, but this would only ever be as wants a repeat of that. I tabled the amendments to a last resort. Where someone is finding difficulties in give a tiny bit of comfort to those who will be affected meeting a particular activity agreed in the action plan, by the Bill, and I hope that the Minister will take his regulations will allow them to ask for the plan to consideration of them in that particular light. be reconsidered. Turning to this group of amendments, it is not our Baroness Thomas of Winchester: This may well be practice to include in legislation that activities will be the shortest speech that I shall make in Committee, individual to the claimant, but to ensure that that is but this is an extremely good amendment. Having the emphasised and enforced in adviser training and guidance. word “individual” before “action plan” will give out Individualisation—or personalisation, to use the noble an entirely different signal, which is very important. Lord’s term—to us means being responsive to the Would it cost the Government anything to do that? circumstances of, and the factors that affect, an individual. I support the amendment. It is possible to have an individual action plan that is quite general, not personalised. The important thing is Lord McKenzie of Luton: I hope to persuade the that the action plan meets the personal circumstances noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, and the noble Baroness, of that individual. An individual plan might be a Lady Thomas, that it is not particularly appropriate. general plan and putting the word “individual” on it The exchange that we had the other day was not so would not change that. The personalisation of the much about sanctions but conditionality, and plan is important. conditionality is not just about sanctions at the end of Action plans will take into account, for instance, the process. whether the person is in a couple or is a lone parent, has any health issues and their time out of and distance from the labour market, educational attainment, skills Lord Skelmersdale: Is it not like love and marriage— levels, confidence levels and aspirations for themselves they go together? and their family. I hope I have addressed as forcefully as I can the fact that action plans should and will be Lord McKenzie of Luton: One follows the other, individualised and personalised, so that the wording potentially, if the conditionality is not met. The infamous proposed by the noble Lord is not necessary. case studies were merely illustrative to try to help noble Lords. I would not want them to take on a significance beyond that, but perhaps they have. Baroness Thomas of Winchester: I am extremely confused. What on earth is the difference between a Under the progression-to-work model, parents with personalised action plan and an individual action younger children will be expected to agree an action plan? I have not quite grasped that. plan with their adviser. It will set out the claimant’s individual route-way into work. The activities recorded in the action plan will be reviewed and updated at each Lord McKenzie of Luton: There could be an action subsequent meeting. When producing an action plan plan for individual A, but it could cover only general with an individual, the adviser will encourage parents issues and be used for a range of individuals. It is to think about their aspirations, identify the strengths important that the content of the action plan is upon which they can build and agree steps that move constructed to address the needs of and the barriers them towards their goals. Together they will identify faced by an individual. The fact that a plan is individual the support they need to do this. The adviser will to a person does not mean that it is personalised in the ensure that the person’s wishes and individual family way that we want it to be personalised. GC 291 Welfare Reform Bill[18 JUNE 2009] Welfare Reform Bill GC 292

2.15 pm that will flow from this legislation confirms what the Minister has just said, what the noble Baroness believes Lord Skelmersdale: The phrase “holes and digging” this legislation means and what I believe this legislation sprang into my mind as the Minister went through his means. All the noble Baroness and I are asking for is brief. The Minister has said that action plans will take that there should be a word somewhere in the into account personal circumstances. We are not going legislation—and I think that these are the appropriate to have—again to use an expression used earlier by the places—that reflects that in plain English. noble Baroness, Lady Thomas—one size fits all. There will be a shelf, if you like, from which you can pick the Clearly, we are not going not get any further on this various bits that are appropriate to that individual as subject today. The Minister has said that he would it seems to the personal adviser. The personal adviser reflect. He is obviously doing some quick reflecting and the individual will agree what they are going to this afternoon. do. That will be set in concrete, almost, in the action plan. I cannot see why these action plans should not Lord McKenzie of Luton: We have probably almost be described as personalised. beaten this one to death. However, I draw the noble I said that I was not wedded to the particular word, Lord’s attention to new Clause 2E(1), which says: given that these amendments use the word “individual”; “The Secretary of State must in prescribed circumstances none the less, I am very grateful to the noble Baroness, provide a document (referred to in this section as an “action Lady Thomas. She, like me, believes that you need to plan”) prepared for such purposes as may be prescribed to a give confidence in legislation, especially social security person who is subject to a requirement imposed under section 2A or 2AA in relation to any of the following benefits”. legislation, to those people who are going to be affected by it. At the moment, I cannot see that sort of confidence That links it to an individual. However, rather than arising in the Bill. Of course I shall withdraw the spending more time this afternoon, given the other amendment, but I have absolutely no doubt that I amendments to come, I am happy to take this away shall need to come back to this at the next stage of the and reflect on it. I am not sure that we will have a Bill, unless the Minister’s comments throw me. meeting of minds, but let us see what we can do.

Lord McKenzie of Luton: If we are to discuss the Lord Skelmersdale: I detect a soapy mirror for matter at a subsequent stage that is probably the best reflection. I do not think that that was a very good time to do so, and I could reiterate the point I have just example and it does not meet the point made by the made. I will just try it once more. The fact that you noble Baroness and me. I am delighted that the Minister have an individual action for person A and an individual will give this matter further thought, but he has given action plan for person B does not of itself mean that absolutely no guarantee that he will come back to it. If the contents of those action plans are personalised to he does not, I assure him that I will. I beg leave to individual A and individual B. I would hope that we withdraw the amendment. have agreement that these action plans need to be “personalised”, to pick up the noble Lord’s word. Amendment 45 withdrawn. Referring in the legislation to an individual action plan does not achieve that. Amendment 46 Baroness Thomas of Winchester: If you are going to Moved by Lord Skelmersdale tailor the plan to an individual’s circumstances, which 46: Clause 2, page 6, line 21, at end insert “at the lower rate” the Minister says that you would do, cannot that be reflected somehow in the wording? Lord Skelmersdale: Given that social security laws are viewed with great suspicion outside the two Houses Lord McKenzie of Luton: I am certainly happy to of Parliament, it is beholden on the Government to be reflect on that. I genuinely think that it is unnecessary, very clear and inform people in advance of the pilots however. I do not think that we are apart on what we starting and, even more importantly, to publicise what want these action plans to contain, and the framing of is going on before work-related activity is rolled out the legislation is perfectly adequate to achieve that. countrywide. That applies equally to able-bodied people; The amendment is not particularly helpful. If the doubtless, we will hear quite a lot more about this in request were whether there was some other way to our discussions. change the legislation to make it clear in primary Employment and support allowance, to which legislation that it should be personalised to the Amendment 46 refers, when it is fully up and running circumstances of the individual, I would be happy to is to be paid at two rates. Let us forget the first reflect on that. I cannot promise that we would end up 13 weeks, when everybody is on the lower rate; what with a different result. I do not detect from any of this we are interested in here is when the two weeks exchange that we have a difference of view on what we operate side by side for a longer period of time. It is want those action plans to contain in practice and also, like jobseeker’s allowance, to be paid on two what we want them to achieve. different criteria, depending on the amount of NICs paid. If I am right—and I think that I probably Lord Skelmersdale: True, we do not a difference in am—the higher rate is payable when the claimant view, but what we have is a piece of legislation that I needs to be supported because of disability, the lower do not believe reflects that approach. Everything we one when the claimant has limited capability to work. have learnt about the various statutory instruments My problem with line 21 on page 6 of the Bill is that GC 293 Welfare Reform Bill[LORDS] Welfare Reform Bill GC 294

[LORD SKELMERSDALE] Lord Skelmersdale: I would not even have considered both those are covered at the same time; neither the putting down this amendment, but for the fact that Peer’s information pack nor the notes on clauses has new Section 2E (2)(c) of the Social Security Administration been any help to me. It seems to us—or to one of us, Act does not refer to employment and support allowance, at least—that the support group is extremely unlikely which given, as the Minister has just said, that the to come into requirement for action plans for section refers to recipients and future recipients of work-based interviews, unless the individual starts to income support or income-related benefits, caused me recover from whatever illness or disability caused slight confusion. them to be put in that group in the first place, whereas I am glad that the support group of ESA will never those with limited capability to work and with lower be expected to fit into the progression-to-work part of benefit in payment will always need to be subject to the Bill, but the limited-capacity-for-work group on interview action plans—and perhaps to the Minister’s the lower rate of ESA obviously will be. Would it not favourite, sanctions, as well. be appropriate to have an action plan for them, with Hence, I have tabled this probing amendment to everything that goes with it? discover what plans the Government have for the I therefore accept that the amendment is not necessary long-term ill and disabled. I am sorry—I should have and, even if it were, I take the Minister’s point that it is put “people” in that sentence; I apologise particularly in the wrong place in the Bill. I shall perhaps think a to the noble Lord, Lord Rix. From the wording on the little further on that, but I doubt that it will be Bill, which covers everyone on contributory ESA, the necessary to come back on this issue. I therefore beg Government must have some reason, and I should leave to withdraw the amendment. be grateful if the Minister would explain. It would also be useful for him to explain the thinking regarding Amendment 46 withdrawn. those on the non-contributory basis of ESA, which also needs to be covered somewhere. I beg to move. Amendments 47 to 51 not moved.

Lord McKenzie of Luton: These provisions generally deal with recipients of income support or with partners Amendment 52 of certain recipients of income-related benefits. If I Moved by Lord Skelmersdale understood the thrust of the noble Lord’s remarks, he seeks to ensure that ESA claimants in the support 52: Clause 2, page 6, line 45, leave out “only” group are not brought within the provisions. I understand why he tabled the amendment, but I hope that I can Lord Skelmersdale: That dispenses with new Section 2E convince him, at least on this occasion, that it is of the Social Security Administration Act 1992 and unnecessary. we move on to new Section 2F, which allows the Clause 2 inserts new Sections 2D, 2E and 2F into Secretary of State to give directions about work-related the Social Security Administration Act 1992. Together activity. I am unsurprised that the Secretary of State with the existing provisions in Sections 2A and 2AA should have such a power, as these are not details that of that Act, they provide the basis for introducing the one would expect to see set out in the Bill. However, concept of a progression-to-work group, as envisaged we still need to find out what the Secretary of State by the Gregg review. will do with these directions, which has been a focus of By his amendment, the noble Lord seeks to protect attack throughout our discussions on the Bill, and I those receiving the support component in employment make no apology for it. and support allowance from the strictures of these provisions. However, the provisions of this clause apply 2.30 pm only to claimants of income support and the partners Amendments 52 and 53 come as a pair, and of claimants of that benefit, of income-based jobseeker’s Amendment 88 does something very similar in Clause 8. allowance and income-related employment and support I wonder why the Bill restricts the participant to just allowance. So it applies to the lone parents with younger one activity that may be deemed work-related. That children whom we have discussed and the partners of seems unnecessarily restrictive, and even short-sighted. claimants of other income-related benefits. The clause It is easy to imagine circumstances in which a person is does not impact on claimants of the employment and undertaking two or more activities that could be useful support allowance at whatever rate that benefit is for progression into work, for example, working occasional paid, so the amendment could not have the effect that shifts in a shop and also doing voluntary work. Both the noble Lord seeks. would be useful for a person seeking transition into There are extant powers in Sections 13 to 15 of the regular employment, and they could easily happen at Welfare Reform Act 2007 which allow us to subject the same time. I see no good reason why both should employment and support allowance recipients to work- not be found in the—I am not allowed to call it related activity, action plans and adviser directions, “personalised”—action plan. Even in case study no. 1, but none of those provisions applies to claimants in it is clear that in the “work for your benefit” schemes, the support group. The construction of Clause 2, to say nothing of the progression-to-work schemes, together with existing legislation in the Welfare Reform more than one activity can, and often will, be carried Act, does not permit people in the support group to be out over the relevant timescale. subjected to work-related activity. I hope that the The qualities that a person needs to find work—simple noble Lord will withdraw his amendment in light of but important things such as time-keeping, presenting that explanation. oneself well and dealing with other people—can be GC 295 Welfare Reform Bill[18 JUNE 2009] Welfare Reform Bill GC 296 learnt and improved on in different ways. The route to without good cause. The specific circumstances will be these skills might come in different forms, and that is set out in regulations and, where met, claimants could surely to be encouraged. If a person has the gumption be directed into any activity, subject to certain safeguards, to engage in more than one activity that can be seen as which helped them to move closer to work. work-related, that is to be applauded and encouraged. When advisers issue any direction, they will consider I am unclear why the Secretary of State should be able their previous discussions with the customer, any external to specify only one activity as work-related. Perhaps advice and, most importantly, the individual circumstances the Minister will be able to explain that there is more of that parent. This means that any direction given than meets the eye in this rather curious prescription. will be suitable and achievable for the person concerned Amendment 59, which is in this group, is designed at the time. to ask why Clause 2(3) allows for a direction to provide for a variation to have effect before the direction is I reassure your Lordships that directions will not be given, which is a little confusing. Although that seems used to require an employment and support allowance to be an impossibility, I imagine it is so that the claimant or parent to apply for or take up a specific Secretary of State can give retrospective approval to a job. We have also made it clear that no employment change that has occurred without his say-so, but which and support allowance claimant will be required to should not result in a sanction on the participant. undergo medical treatment under this provision. That sounds as if the original direction was flawed in The power is necessary to ensure that advisers have some way and the participant was right to ignore it. Is the tools available to require everyone to undertake that what the Government have in mind? I beg to move. some activity to address their barriers to work. Although we have a firm belief that a collaborative approach Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, as part of the with claimants should be the norm, it is necessary to progression-to-work pathfinders, parents with younger be able to act where a customer is undermining the children and those claiming employment and support rationale of the support that we are offering. allowance will be expected to undertake work-related On Amendments 52 and 53, I stress again that we activity that will be discussed and agreed with a personal shall issue a direction only after every other possible adviser. During this joint process, the adviser will avenue has been explored. If it is necessary to issue a encourage parents to think about their aspirations, direction, we want it to apply to one specific activity to identify the strengths upon which they can build and enable the individual to concentrate on the main barriers agree steps that move them towards their goals and that affect them. If we directed them to undertake eventually into sustained employment. However, I believe multiple activities, it may cause confusion or be that we need to maintain the ability to direct a person inappropriate for the individual involved, especially if to an activity if, after receiving this support, opportunity they have any significant barriers such as learning and guidance, claimants do not engage with this process, difficulties or if their family circumstances are chaotic. especially if it has been identified as essential in helping Directing them to multiple activities in such circumstances them prepare for paid work. would be unacceptable and monitoring compliance Amendment 88 removes the power to direct a claimant difficult. Instead, we want a personal adviser to be of employment and support allowance to a specific able clearly to articulate the activity that will help work-related activity. Advisers will always encourage, address the main barriers to an individual entering persuade and support people into activity they feel is work, so that the parent is in no doubt about what necessary before considering requiring someone to they are required to do. undertake a particular activity. However, there is a strong case for stepping up conditionality as part of Amendment 59 would remove the ability of personal the action planning process where someone consistently advisers to backdate their decision to revoke or reconsider fails to engage effectively with the personalised support a work-related activity contained within a direction. regime. Our evidence shows that conditionality, through The ability to revoke or reconsider an action that a mandatory work-focused interviews, is successful in parent has been directed to undertake does not unfairly helping claimants with health conditions return to penalise them or lead to unnecessary sanctions. This is work. Pathways to work increase by 25 per cent the especially important where they are finding difficulty likelihood of a new customer being employed 18 months in undertaking a particular activity; for example, if after starting their claim. there has been a change in their circumstances, or an event in their life, which means that it is no longer However, we want to go further. In the current appropriate for them to undertake that direction at economic climate, it is even more important that that time. individuals make full use of the support available to them to address their barriers to work. That is why, in We want to retain flexibility also so that an adviser line with Gregg’s recommendations, we want to give can backdate a direction, where this would be in the advisers this power to require claimants to undertake parent’s interests. For example, an individual may not specific activities where appropriate. For example, two have carried out the activity specified but carried out situations in which we believe that an adviser should some other activity which the adviser may deem acceptable. be able to require someone to undertake a specific By backdating the direction, we would also avoid any activity are where a claimant is carrying out work-related consideration of penalising the individual for the period activity, but has a significant barrier to work which between the issue of the original direction and the they have been encouraged to address but has failed to issue of the redirection. I hope that those explanations do so, or where a claimant has consistently failed to and assurances will satisfy the noble Lord, but he will meet their general work-related activity requirement doubtless press me again if they do not. GC 297 Welfare Reform Bill[LORDS] Welfare Reform Bill GC 298

Lord Skelmersdale: Again, I am grateful to the Lord Skelmersdale: I think that that is helpful. I was Minister. The individual action plans, as I think we going on to say that I also picked up that the Minister said both agree, could contain multiple activities which that there might be more than one direction concerning made it more likely that a person ended up in work. an individual at any time. A multiplicity of directions New Section 2F(1)(a) sets out the direction—I have no would most certainly be very confusing. complaint about directions; I agree with the Minister that there will be occasions, which I hope will be rare, Lord McKenzie of Luton: I said that there would be when they are issued because they are fair and appropriate. a succession of directions, but that at any one time However, the individual direction will, as I understand there would be only one direction. But that would not the Bill, direct the individual to undertake only one of preclude subsequent directions. The idea is that someone the multiple activities described in the agreed action would come in for a work-focused interview and there plan. I am not sure that this is a particularly sensible would be discussion around activity. If necessary, a arrangement or that you can pick only the most direction would be imposed. At the next work-focused appropriate of all these agreed things in the action interview there would be a reflection on that to see plan—presumably, to the exclusion of all others—to how that had progressed. It may be that if encouragement be the one thing on which you will direct him or her. I to make further progress is not undertaken, another shall have to give this further thought. direction could be given to address another remaining barrier. But there would not be two directions at the Lord McKenzie of Luton: That does not mean that same time. you cannot have a succession of directions picking up different components of the action plan. I hope I 2.45 pm explained that before there are any directions, there would be collaborative engagement to encourage the Baroness Afshar: Very often women with children individual to engage in work-related activity on possibly who do not know English face several barriers at the multiple fronts as the action plan might suggest. It same time. I am not sure that it is easy to prioritise does not stop a specific direction being succeeded by whether it is the knowledge of language, problem of another one later. The purpose is to identify key culture or the presence of children that is the largest barriers to work and to say that it is that and that and most important barrier to working. At the same alone at that point in time with which the individual time, looking after children is work, and that is not should engage. Obviously, multiple activities can and recognised. Until and unless the work that women do will be part of the action plan, which we encourage. It as child carers is recognised, that fundamental barrier is just the act at a particular point in time of mandating will never be confronted or removed. more than one specific activity, which could give rise to confusion, and we would particularly want the Lord McKenzie of Luton: I note the point that the opportunity of individuals to be encouraged to concentrate noble Baroness has pressed on a number of occasions. on the key barrier which is preventing them moving We may in part be talking about semantics. We would closer to the labour market. all recognise the importance of looking after families and bringing up children; there is nothing inconsistent with what is provided for in the Bill with recognising Lord Skelmersdale: I hope that Hansard reporters and supporting that aim. However, I take the point have better hearing than me. I thought I heard the that issues around coping with family life and Minister talking about identifying key barriers—the children are a key barrier that may have a number of plural—to work in that additional information. He facets. I hang on to the point that, so far as directions meant, of course, a single barrier to work which would are moving closer to the labour market, doing it one at be identified in the direction and should be concentrated a time is the right way to go. Otherwise, you could on to the exclusion of anything else in the action plan. create all sorts of confusion, particularly if you Lord McKenzie of Luton: There may be several were trying to unpick all those issues that looking barriers to work. This direction-making power is to after families and caring for children actually entailed. say that the adviser has the power to direct concentration That is why I think that this is the right approach. on a particular barrier. It does not preclude at the Indeed, the action plan should seek to prioritise the same time the individual still engaging on other aspects barriers. of the action plan, but specifies that a particular Directions are not the norm; they are to be used action must be taken because that is seen as a key barrier. only when clients no longer follow their action plan, so we do not see them as a routine part of the process. Baroness Thomas of Winchester: Perhaps the learning If people do not follow their action plans, we take on of English would be a key barrier. Would that be a the key item from the action plan and direct compliance good example? to try to kickstart compliance generally. We do not see Lord McKenzie of Luton: That is a good example. I it as a routine and normal part of the process, but it is do not see why that could not be the case. The might an important facility. be other issues around some skills, but that is a very helpful example. I am grateful to the noble Baroness Lord Skelmersdale: I think that we are getting for that. A related issue might be attending a training somewhere. There will not be multiple directions, and course that may contain issues around social and I am delighted to hear that. It follows that, if there is a financial skills, et cetera. A particular action may second direction, the first one is ripped up. Is that encompass a number of other components. right? GC 299 Welfare Reform Bill[18 JUNE 2009] Welfare Reform Bill GC 300

Lord McKenzie of Luton: Yes, I think that, if a order to undertake work-related activity. That support direction is made, the individual complies and comes is quite likely to be specialised, including knowledge of to the next work-focused interview, there is a recap on the claimant’s disability or health condition and of the how the action plan is proceeding and then another way this limits their capability for work. If such support direction, which would be relevant from then on in. is not available, then work related-activity will be Therefore, I think that it would technically supersede difficult to undertake, and, very importantly, less likely the earlier direction. It would not be ripped up in a to lead to sustained employment. Given that, I believe sense, because the direction would stand; it would that the new support as well as the new obligations have been complied with and action would have been should be in the Bill wherever relevant. That is why I taken in relation to it—then you would move on to have put forward these amendments. other barriers. In the debate in Committee in another place, the Minister with responsibility for disabled people Lord Skelmersdale: I think that you could use the commented: legal term, “spent”, which I think is what the Minister “A direction can only be issued as a last resort and must be means. That has been extremely helpful, and I beg suitable and achievable for the individual concerned. That is leave to withdraw the amendment. especially important if someone has a learning disability and requires specific support in order to undertake it. As further reassurance for Members on this point, I have set the safeguards Amendment 52 withdrawn. around making sure that the requirements of a person with a learning disability are appropriate”.—[Official Report, Commons, Amendment 53 not moved. Welfare Reform Bill Committee, 24/2/09; col. 143.] Of course I welcome these assurances, and I greatly welcome and appreciate the publication of the draft Amendment 54 regulations referring to work-related activity for ESA Moved by Lord Rix customers, which the Minister kindly distributed in draft form at the beginning of this month. They 54: Clause 2, page 7, line 5, at end insert— contain some welcome safeguards, which will go a “( ) must be reasonable, having regard to whether the person long way to ensuring we get some justice, but I am has a learning disability and the nature of that learning afraid that they do not go far enough. They do not disability; protect a claimant from failure to understand what is ( ) must be reasonable, having regard to the sufficiency of expected of him due to the nature of his learning the support available to be provided to the person if they have a learning disability;” disability; they do not protect a claimant from failure to comply with conditions imposed upon him because there is insufficient support available to help him to Lord Rix: I shall speak also to Amendments 89 comply. In essence, they do not address the very real and 92. I am joined in their support by the noble fears of people with a learning disability that their Baroness, Lady Thomas, and in two of them by my benefits will be cut despite good intentions on their noble friend Lord Ramsbotham. I am not quite certain behalf to meet the demands of the new system. why he did not put his name down for Amendment 92, Nor do the draft regulations address the issue of but I cannot ask him at the moment because he is specialist training for work advisers. As I have stated firing warning shots at this moment in the Chamber, previously, the Government’s contracting out of regarding the Iraq invasion. I can only hope that the employment provision using the prime provider model, shots are not blanks. which squeezes out smaller specialist providers with Taken together, these amendments will ensure that expert knowledge, is likely to make it more rather than work advisers who will have the power to dock benefits less likely that work advisers will be lacking in specialist and prescribe work-related activity are trained in learning disability knowledge. disability issues. They need to be able to understand This point was forcefully brought home to me at what a learning disability is; the impact a learning Mencap’s annual SNAP! awards ceremony last night, disability has on an individual’s capacity to understand which took place at the Proud Galleries in Camden and undertake tasks; and the support required by town. SNAP! showcases the lives and talents of people people with a learning disability in order to carry out a with a learning disability through photographs and work-related activity. short films. Many of the prize winners with a learning The amendments echo the concerns raised on Second disability might have appeared to those without knowledge Reading by my noble friend Lady Murphy and by the of disability—such as those work advisers being discussed noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, that work advisers will today—as incapable of working. But, as the Minister not receive adequate training and that, as a consequence, with responsibility for care services from another place, people with a learning disability, who are unable to Phil Hope, found out last night when he presented comply with their action plans, may face unjust situations some of the awards, people with a learning disability and unjust sanctions. can excel if they receive quality support to help them. Different kinds of work-related activity will be It was particularly interesting to hear, last night, the appropriate for different claimants, depending on a Minister’s view that the forthcoming Green Paper on range of factors, including their skills, qualifications social care would tackle many of these support issues. and experience, their employment goals and the manner Perhaps the Minister here today will elaborate further. and extent to which their capability for work is limited The need for quality support is further illustrated in by their physical or their mental condition. As I have the story about Katie Hart. Katie has an NVQ in said, claimants will need some level of support in business and administration, excellent IT skills and GC 301 Welfare Reform Bill[LORDS] Welfare Reform Bill GC 302

[LORD RIX] their potential in myriad ways, and eventually gain a more than a year’s worth of unpaid work experience in qualification to enable some of them to obtain the administrative sector. Katie also has a minor learning employment in horticulture. If those who are responsible disability. For three long years, she applied for jobs in for the training of Jobcentre Plus advisers in this field the administration sector, only to be turned down for wish to see a practical example of the help that is every single one until a local company finally offered being given in Battersea, I am sure that that could be her a rather inadequate administrative post. arranged. Finally, I ask the Minister whether Mencap We cannot escape the fact that employers are reluctant is involved in the training programme of Jobcentre to employ people with a learning disability, who still Plus advisers. face a vast amount of stigma and discrimination. This means that people like Katie are likely to get to the end 3pm of the new process and be directed by their work adviser to carry out unpaid work experience at different Lord Ramsbotham: I apologise to the Committee companies for year after year. We need these amendments for being absent at the very start of the debate, but I to protect people with a learning disability from facing am also involved in the debate on the Iraq invasion. sanctions due to companies’ reluctance to employ My reason for putting my name to the amendment is them rather than because they have done anything wrong. very much linked with remarks I made at Second Reading of the Policing and Crime Bill. That may I repeat: if the Government are to introduce a sound slightly strange, but there I drew attention to sanctions regime such as that in the Bill, they must the fact that at present the House is faced with an match these increased obligations on the claimants enormous number of different Bills, each with an with support from trained staff. I have read the Committee impact assessment attached. I wonder whether anyone debate in another place, and these newly published has bothered to do an impact assessment of the impact draft regulations and, sadly, I am not convinced that of any one of these Bills on any of the other Bills. this would be the case. I look forward to hearing With this Bill, that issue comes very much to mind, for whether the Minister will consider beefing up these two entirely separate reasons. draft regulations and the definition of “good cause” to address the points discussed today, and put safeguards I declare an interest as an adviser to the Sainsbury for training and specialist support into the Bill. I beg Centre for Mental Health, which is embarked on two to move. separate studies—one on the problem of mental health in prisons and the second on the problems faced by those with mental health problems, including learning Baroness Thomas of Winchester: The noble Lord, disabilities, in getting employment. At the same time, Lord Ramsbotham, has given me permission to come in the apprenticeships Bill, a number of us are tabling in at this point to allow him to catch his breath from an amendment to ensure that before starting school, the Chamber. This is an important amendment, which every child is given a proper assessment of its learning we support. I urge the Government to listen hard to abilities and disabilities to enable it to engage in education. what the noble Lord, Lord Rix—who is such a long- In prisons, an enormous number of people lack the standing expert in the field—says. learning ability to engage in the system when they As the noble Lord said, what those with learning reach the age of 15. We find that in Northern Ireland disabilities need most from advisers in Jobcentre Plus they have decided that every child should be assessed is the right help and support for their personal disabilities. at the age of two to ensure that the sort of learning They need people who recognise what they can do and difficulty being discussed under this amendment is what they should not be expected to do in relation to raised at an early enough stage for something to be work-related activity. This may not always be obvious done about it. to an adviser, which is why the training of Jobcentre Therefore, I voice my concern and my strong support Plus staff is so important. I hope that the Minister will for the noble Lord, Lord Rix, and the noble Baroness, fill us in on the training of staff in this field, as I think Lady Thomas, in every word that they said. There he promised to do at our last Sitting on Monday. seems to be a disconnect; on one hand, we have an Those with learning disabilities are likely to be enormous number of efforts being made to improve particularly trusting of advisers, which is why it is so what is happening for the identification of learning vital that the advisers are properly trained to understand skills problems and learning disabilities and to do their needs and give them adequate and individually something to harness them; on the other hand, we are tailored support in this area. It is a pity that the proposing that something should be done, if, for reasons access-to-work scheme will not be available, as is perfectly explicable in the context of the disability, the presumably the case, because we are talking not about disabled person cannot meet the conditions proposed work but work-related activity. But something like the in the Bill. access-to-work scheme would be terrific for people with learning disabilities. Baroness Murphy: The amendment has been so ably I make no apology for mentioning that admirable moved that I do not need to add much more than my organisation Thrive—I know that the noble Lord, tuppenceworth. I support the amendments, particularly Lord Skelmersdale, knows it very well—which aims to their thrust on training. We have got down to the help disabled people from local communities change nitty-gritty of what happens in practice to assist those their lives through gardening. Part of the work of the who may not have worked for some time, have real Battersea garden project, under the Thrive umbrella, potential but whose circumstances have been against aims to help those with learning difficulties to fulfil them for all kinds of reasons, among them learning GC 303 Welfare Reform Bill[18 JUNE 2009] Welfare Reform Bill GC 304 disabilities and mental health problems. The noble great detail. But it is clear, not least from the examples Countess, Lady Mar, has an amendment that has the given by the noble Lord, Lord Rix, that people who same sort of implications. suffer from learning difficulties will have particular The strength of this Bill lies in its potential for and unsurprising difficulties in accessing the job market. therapeutic interaction and a proper action plan that I was absolutely horrified to hear about the experience is supportive, whether individualised or personalised. of Katie, who was exemplified by the noble Lord, It is a little bit like doing a care plan for somebody Lord Rix. subject to a community treatment order under the As an employer, I have to accept that an employer Mental Health Act. You have to sit down and negotiate would normally be extremely cautious in considering what the blocks are to remaining well and how to get the employment of someone with learning disabilities. through the system of hurdles to get well again and Noble Lords should not get me wrong because my back into recovery. This is an analogous situation. My wife and I have for some time employed an individual—in real fear—and we have brought this up before—is that horticulture, as it happens—with learning disabilities. we need to create an attitude that comes with training Both he and we cope with the situation very well. But I and understanding people’s conditions, and a cultural can imagine other employers and other people with change among those who provide the services so that learning disabilities who would not gel anything like as they get into the right relationships with people. Therefore, well. In this day and age, I am not sure what interests the fundamentals of training for the private providers— one should declare. Some time ago I was asked to be a those who are going to the actual job—are crucial in a trustee of Thrive, which the noble Baroness, Lady whole series of amendments, of which this is the most Thomas, has mentioned. I also have a sister who is a important. We must somehow use this Bill to make a trained psychological therapist and is studying animal real difference to how people become engaged with the therapy, with particular reference to horses, which, as work-related activity process, which then has the potential the noble Countess, Lady Mar, said, often has very to lead them on to work. I support the amendment. desirable effects on those with learning disabilities. The Countess of Mar: The noble Baroness, Lady I am sure that the Minister will not disagree with Thomas, mentioned horticulture. Perhaps I may also the view expressed by all noble Lords who have spoken mention the fact that a lot of people with learning that particular attention will have to be paid to people difficulties have an extraordinary affinity with animals. with learning difficulties if these schemes are to be Working with animals expands their view and they successful in getting them back to work or into work become more able to work with humans. We should for the first time. I expect—although I am, as usual, not lose sight of that. In rural set-ups, some farms are prepared to be proved wrong—that the Minister will very mechanised and difficult for young people, but agree with all of this and assuage noble Lords by others have animals, including horses, sheep, pigs and saying that this will all be taken care of under the cows. A lot of kennels take on young people as well. individually tailored action plans. Of course, we are You do not need an A-level or a university degree to not allowed to call them that; they are just action work with animals. Animals love these people because plans. This is why the key amendment in the group—as they seem to understand them. It is a wonderful thing with a similar set of amendments tabled by the noble to see and I am fortunate to see it quite often. I Countess, Lady Mar, which are shortly to be debated—is support the noble Lord, Lord Rix. the one that refers to precisely what training will be provided to jobcentre staff to enable them to draw up Baroness Turner of Camden: I, too, support this action plans addressing the needs of participants with amendment. Although it is not within my particular learning difficulties. area of expertise, I have listened with a great deal of We have not yet explored the activities of the contractor interest to what the noble Lord, Lord Rix, and others in all this. My guess, and hope, is that, to a great have said in support of it. It is very necessary for the extent, the prime mover—the contractor’s personal text of this amendment to appear in the Bill, in adviser, if you like—will draw these things up. They particular in the section to which it is related; that is, will be approved by the jobcentre personal adviser. Of the directions about work-related activity. In Committee, course, directions, sanctions and so on have to work in we have already had quite a lot of discussion about the that way: they will be suggested by the contractor, and necessity of ensuring that those responsible for the more normal agents of the Secretary of State then administering this legislation have adequate training. actually impose them. That is doubly important for people with learning I would also be obliged if the Minister gave us the disabilities. most up-to-date statistics—or perhaps the noble Lord, It is in the Government’s interests to ensure that Lord Rix, has them—indicating what percentage of this Bill covers adequately people with learning disabilities those out of work have been diagnosed with learning in the manner proposed under this amendment. I difficulties so that we have a clear grasp of the scale of hope that the Minister will agree. He may not accept the problem. this wording, but I hope that he will accept the principle and ensure that something like this appears in the Bill. At the beginning of my speech, I indicated sympathy but expressed doubt that it is necessary to have these Lord Skelmersdale: The noble Lord, Lord Rix, will amendments in the Bill. I expressed doubt because I be glad to hear that this is an occasion when I will not note that at the top of page 7—gosh, we are moving be a bit of grit in the ointment. I support the theory of fast today—it says: these amendments. Whether it is necessary to have “A direction … must be reasonable, having regard to the them in the Bill, the Minister will no doubt explain in person’s circumstances”. GC 305 Welfare Reform Bill[LORDS] Welfare Reform Bill GC 306

[LORD SKELMERSDALE] out. Personal advisers can also recommend that the Of course, a “person’s circumstances” would include customer bring along a carer or other third party if any disability, including a learning disability. The noble they think that it is necessary or would be helpful. Baroness, Lady Afshar, has spoken of the paucity of Amendment 89 aims to ensure that personal advisers English among certain of the individuals we are talking are adequately trained to deal effectively with ESA about. As usual, I will listen carefully to what the customers who have learning disabilities. We recognise Minister says, but that is not to say that I disapprove the central importance of the adviser role if we want of the actions taken by the noble Lord, Lord Rix, this customers to be able to progress positively and confidently afternoon. towards a return to work. We shall focus strongly in the progression-to-work pathfinders on developing Lord McKenzie of Luton: I thank the noble Lord, the staff who deliver this role and invest in the necessary Lord Rix, for moving his amendment. It brings us to training. We have already started talking to stakeholders an important topic that we have touched on a little about adviser skills and knowledge and will continue before in Committee. I entirely empathise with the to do so—that is vital. sentiments behind the amendments in this group, as However, pathways personal advisers already have the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale anticipated. considerable training in dealing with customers with a I assure noble Lords that we take supporting customers range of health conditions. It is important to point with learning disabilities seriously. As I noted in one of out that pathways advisers are not working in isolation. our previous Committee Sittings, however, the noble In Jobcentre Plus pathways areas, they can seek advice Lord, Lord Rix, identified the big gap between the from, or refer customers on to, specialist disability employment rate of people with learning disabilities employment advisers or work psychologists. and that of pretty much every other group that we In provider-led pathways areas, all our providers monitor. As I said then, we cannot allow this to have delivered specific training to their staff to assist continue. I hope that the provisions in the Bill, effectively them in dealing with customers with health conditions. resourced and applied, will be the route to help. They also have links to specialist subcontractors to To successfully help those with learning difficulties, whom clients with specific medical conditions can be we will have to ensure that our advisers are adequately referred for additional assistance. They can also refer trained to deal with customers who have a learning customers to the disability employment adviser via the disability; this is a strong theme that I will come back jobcentre. For example, WorkDirections provides advisers to in a moment. We will also have to ensure that any with training in learning disabilities, facilitated by directions to a specific work-related activity take account vocational rehabilitation specialists from the organisation of a person’s individual personalised circumstances, Disability Matters. The training covers effective including any learning disability that they may have. communication and providing support to clients, as Amendments 54 and 92 seek to ensure that advisers well as information about agencies that can provide must take into account a customer’s learning disability additional support to clients with specific conditions when issuing a direction to a specific work-related when in work. It specifically addresses working with activity. I reassure noble Lords that the power to direct clients who have Down’s syndrome, autism, Asperger’s, customers to a specific activity will be used only in a cerebral palsy, dyspraxia or acquired brain injury. small minority of cases. Advisers will always encourage, Working Links has used the National Autistic Society, persuade and support people into activity they genuinely which delivered a one-week training course to personal feel is necessary before considering issuing someone advisers on Asperger’s. with a direction to undertake a specific activity. All advisers working with ESA claimants also receive advice from approved healthcare professionals about 3.15 pm the impact of the customer’s health condition from the work-focused health-related assessment, which is As stated in Clauses 2 and 8, any direction to an completed in the early stage of a customer’s claim. activity must be reasonable and, as the noble Lord, The report will flag up whether the customer has a Lord Skelmersdale, cited, have regard to the person’s learning disability and its likely impact on them. circumstances. Hence, any direction to undertake an activity by the adviser must be appropriate to the Baroness Thomas of Winchester: Has the Minister customer’s abilities and circumstances, which would asked Mencap specifically for help in training advisers? include taking into account any learning disability that the customer may have. Lord McKenzie of Luton: The Sainsbury Centre for Safeguards are in place which will apply if the Mental Health was involved in the development of the claimant has misunderstood a direction to a specific Jobcentre Plus adviser training. We shall also consult activity. The claimant could ask for the direction to be a range of other mental health charities, including reconsidered as part of the action plan reconsideration Mencap, on training for advisers in the progression-to- process. If the claimant does not comply with the work pathfinders. It is important that we do so. requirement to undertake an activity because they did not understand it, they will be able to raise it as good Baroness Afshar: What provisions are there for cause for failure to comply. recognising certain disabilities, particularly mental In addition, every customer has the right to be disability, among minorities that are ashamed of mental accompanied by a carer or advocate when attending disability and where having such disability is unlikely an interview. This person can help them to interpret to be stated? What training is provided to enable and understand the advice and requirements being set anyone to recognise that? GC 307 Welfare Reform Bill[18 JUNE 2009] Welfare Reform Bill GC 308

Lord McKenzie of Luton: I readily recognise the classed as having a learning disability, but who do not challenge involved in that. If we are dealing with ESA fall into the above category. That is what we have on customers, there is a process of work-focused interviews the scale of the issue. and a work-focused health-related assessment, currently The noble Countess, Lady Mar, made an interesting undertaken by Atos Healthcare on our behalf, whose point about engagement with animals, farms and so professionals get training. However, it is important on. That would be an entirely reasonable work-related that people from the minority-ethnic communities activity that could appear in somebody’s action plan. who have language or cultural difficulties in expressing I do not know if it ever has, but it is just the sort of themselves on these issues are accompanied by people thing that work-related activity should be about: helping who can support them through these processes. We people to engage and building their confidence. need to be ever-vigilant to make sure that the training The noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, made the analogy recognises that some people who come in as customers that action plans are about care plans. They should be may not be forthcoming because of cultural issues jointly owned, trying to ensure that people can progress. around their health condition. It is important that As all other noble Lords have said, training is absolutely people have the skill to probe that. key. My noble friend Lady Turner supported the I am conscious that I can assert from the Dispatch amendment in similar terms. Where we might part is Box that we have lots of provisions and training and on the need for it to be in the Bill. However, we are, I that we are going to engage with stakeholders to hope, agreed upon the need to ensure that these issues improve that but, as we all know, what actually matters are addressed and inculcated into the processes that is what happens in practice and not only getting the we set in train, and that we are resourced to ensure training in place but having proper monitoring of our that we can deliver on them. staff and contract monitoring of our providers. That is probably not the full loaf that the noble The noble Lord, Lord Rix, asked about the social Lord, Lord Rix, was seeking with his amendment, but care Green Paper. I regret that I am not in a position he will acknowledge what we are trying to achieve. As to say more than my colleague Phil Hope. The Department ever, I am happy, together with colleagues, to continue for Work and Pensions has been closely involved in its to work with him on these matters. preparation, and I hope that it will see the light of day before we get to Report so that we can revisit it then. Lord Rix: I am grateful to all noble Lords who have The noble Lord also asked about specialist spoken in support of the amendment, and to my noble subcontractors. We encourage specialist subcontractors friend Lord Ramsbotham, who, I am glad to say, within a framework of strategic partnerships with escaped from the Iraq war long enough to add his prime contractors and later in our deliberations we support verbally. I am also extremely grateful to the will be discussing how that works. We are not seeking Minister for a long and detailed response which, frankly, to squeeze out smaller providers, very much the contrary. I will have to take away and read most carefully—probably The draft ESA regulations include a provision for with a magnifying glass because there are so many failure to understand the requirements to be a good words in it. There was some comfort for me there. cause. However, I am happy to revisit the wording. I believe the provision is there; it is certainly intended The noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, and the noble to be there. Baroness, Lady Thomas, plugged Thrive. Mencap has for many years had Lufton College in Somerset, which The noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, urged us to be trains people in animal welfare, horticulture, agriculture joined up on this as a Government. As ever, he raises and so on. It hopes that, at the end of the training, an important point. The impact assessment for the which can be anything from two to four or five years, Bill has encompassed equality and child poverty as they will be able to take up work in that activity when part of its approach, but there is always more that they finally return home. government can do to be joined up. We are dealing The training of the advisers in learning disability, with work-related activity. There is no question of and all the other problems, is a case of “How long is a mandating anybody to a specific job, that is not the piece of string?”. Truthfully, how good are the trainers group that we are dealing with. going to be? How good are the trainees going to be at In moving his amendment, the noble Lord, Lord receiving what they are trained in? It is a difficult Rix, touched on the point that employers have a key problem, and I hope that, in four or five years—if the role to play. We can do whatever we can to support Bill is eventually enacted and applies—we will not people, but we need to make sure that we engage with hear those dread words “lessons have been learnt” employers so they have the benefit of people who have once again because things have gone horribly wrong. real talent and expertise that can brought to bear, During the passage of the Police and Criminal which will help not only those individuals but the Evidence Act, all those years ago, the Kent police, businesses the employers run. who had a good film studio, made a DVD in co-operation The noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, asked about with Mencap to show to all police officers who were the numbers. We estimate that around 50,000 people likely to be involved with learning-disabled people. It claiming incapacity benefit or employment support was a great success and circulated to all police forces. I allowance have a learning disability. This figure could am not sure that one might not care to consider that be higher given that the estimate does not include device. I would be more than happy to step in front of those people whose learning disability is not listed as a camera with some learning-disabled people and try their main health condition. In addition, there are to explain the problems and difficulties. It might be a likely to be claimants who would still broadly be practical help to the training of these people. GC 309 Welfare Reform Bill[LORDS] Welfare Reform Bill GC 310

[LORD RIX] arranged for the doctors’ training manual to be rewritten Nobody has yet mentioned the easy-read pamphlets to take into account people with fluctuating illnesses. that should be available for people with learning disabilities. Fifteen years on, the message has still not been received. Again, they should automatically be available. Easy-read I do not know whether the noble Lord has received a versions of the actions of Bills, the Acts when they copy of the letter that I left for him yesterday. It is a eventually come out, the regulations and so on are letter from a lady called Jayne Thomas who wrote: vital. It is not that they will exactly be the most “Dear Countess, popular reading, but they should be available. I am enclosing, for your information, a copy of an appeal letter that I have just sent to the Department of Work & Pensions/Job Baroness Thomas of Winchester: I think we would Centre as they seem to think that my condition has no impact on my ability to work”. all welcome an easy-read version of the Bill ourselves. I have no compunction about reading this letter because 3.30 pm it says exactly what I have been trying to say for years. This is her appeal letter: Lord Rix: Yes, that is true. I have said enough. The “With reference to your decision to stop the above”— Minister has said a great deal and I do not want to add to the time we spend here this afternoon. I will her ESA claim— study the Minster’s words tomorrow and the day “I am writing to appeal against this decision as I believe it is after. I have a potential meeting with him on other wrong and was stunned to see that you have given me 0 (ZERO) matters concerning the Bill, so I will obviously bring points for my claim. up matters concerning the amendments as a result of Firstly, please note that you sent the ESA65 to the wrong what I read tomorrow. I beg leave to withdraw the address”— amendment. we go back to the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Rix, earlier this week— Amendment 54 withdrawn. “(I advised you at the end of April and many times since of my new address), the letter advising your refusal to continue to pay me arrived at the right address at the top of this letter. Both these Amendment 55 letters had the same date on them and I would appreciate it if all future correspondence has the right address (as at the top of this Moved by The Countess of Mar letter). This may explain why a cheque went missing at the 55: Clause 2, page 7, line 5, at end insert— beginning of May (I am still awaiting reimbursement for this missing cheque). “( ) must be reasonable, having regard to whether the person has a condition with fluctuating signs and symptoms, I would like to appeal on the following grounds; and the nature of that condition;” 1. At the medical assessment the Doctor from your contractor, ATOS, saw me for just 20 minutes and assured me that NO The Countess of Mar: I shall also speak to decision would be made to stop my ESA without full consultation with my GP/specialists who have been seeing me since my illness Amendments 90 and 93. In doing so, I declare a began. I spoke to my GP/Specialist yesterday and they confirm non-pecuniary interest as chairman of Forward-ME that they have had no correspondence with yourselves. and patron of a number of ME charities. The amendment 2. With reference to your ‘point scoring’, I disagree as follows; moved by the noble Lord, Lord Rix, was about people who want to go to work and are sometimes not a. Walking 0 points thought fit to do so. I want to discuss people who are I have explained to you that I am unable to walk any distance deemed fit to go to work but who are not fit to do so. without exacerbating my condition and increasing the pain in legs. At times, I am unable to walk even short distances and a The Minister will understand from long experience specialist only recently suggested that I may have to ask the why I am concerned about this particular group of school, where I take my son, that I get special permission to drive people. I explained in some detail at Second Reading onto the school site to avoid the walk from the car to the school. the problems that they have when encountering the b. Standing & Sitting 0 points benefits system. Again, I have already explained that I cannot stand in one ME, or CFS/ME as it is known by some, is a position for very long at all and if I sit down for too long, the pain condition that affects approximately 250,000 people. in my legs becomes intolerable. Many are young and a majority are women. Some c. Bending & Kneeling 0 points who developed the illness in their teenage years have Again, I explained that I am totally unable to kneel or squat. never been able to work; they have not qualified for When your Doctor at the assessment asked me to squat, I was contribution-based benefits and are totally dependent unable to do this and he urged me to stop when he could see I was on income support. I wish that I did not have to say it in pain. again, but I feel that I must. CFS/ME is recognised by d. Remaining Conscious 0 points the World Health Organisation and the Department The extreme fatigue I suffer from can cause periods of debilitating of Health as a neurological disease of unknown aetiology. tiredness. Some 5,000 peer-reviewed and published scientific papers indicating various aspects of the central nervous, e. Memory & Concentration 0 points immune and hormone systems that are affected go My condition causes short-term memory loss and if I push some way to explaining the fluctuating nature of the beyond my boundaries, concentration can become very difficult. If I try to read a novel, I am restricted to only a couple of pages condition. Yet,the view persists that this is a psychosomatic where I can concentrate on the plot, if I push on I end up in pain illness that is easily cured by a course of CBT and GET. (this was explained to your Doctor) In 1994 I met Dr Aylwood when he was head of the f. Starting Jobs & Keeping on with them AND Doing & Benefits Agency medical services. At that stage, he Finishing Jobs 0 points GC 311 Welfare Reform Bill[18 JUNE 2009] Welfare Reform Bill GC 312

I have explained to you that I am unable to start some tasks, health problems, who are in the employment group of let alone finish them. The debilitating fatigue and pain I suffer ESA, and therefore in the progression-to-work group, from can make performing a task such a cooking a meal very will be considered sympathetically by Jobcentre Plus difficult and I quite often rely on my husband for this as I do for other household tasks”. staff before being directed to work-related activity. The now former Minister in the other place said that, She then says—and this is significant: “a person’s health is always considered, so there is no need for “By refusing to continue giving me benefit, you are saying that that to be prescribed in the Bill”.—[Official Report, Commons, I am fit for work. I had held down a very responsible job, which I Public Bill Committee, 24/2/09; col. 140.] thoroughly enjoyed, for 10 years until I was dismissed on grounds of ill health on 27 February 2009. Both my employer and myself However, that is not the experience of many people made every effort to get me back to work last year. I entered a with fluctuating conditions, as the noble Countess, long period of rehabilitation with them from July—the end of Lady Mar, has so powerfully said today and on many September where I gradually returned to work. I went back to occasions. It is all too possible for someone who is work properly at the end of September but was unfortunately experiencing a good day when they see either a disability only able to sustain this return for 6 weeks. At this point, I suffered a terrible relapse which left me unable to cope with the benefits adviser or a personal adviser for their condition most basic of tasks”. not to be recognised adequately. The adviser should have a report following a work-related health assessment I will not go on. I think that I have said enough to about a person’s condition, which indicates whether it make it clear what is going on. I am aware that is a fluctuating condition. I would be interested to benefits claimants who have CFS/ME, when called for hear if this is always the case. However, this assessment a medical examination or interview, will do their best would not include any report from a person’s GP or to perform the tasks given to them. They will have consultant which might confirm the fluctuating nature rested for the day prior to their encounter. They may of the condition. I wonder why that is so. It is a matter find it difficult to describe their illness or what they are of public record that the new Secretary of State for feeling at the time because they have recognised cognitive Work and Pensions has suffered from ME. We therefore problems. They may omit to reveal important factors hope that she will be sympathetic to this point, if not because they are tired after travel. They will often be to the wording of the amendment. able to do what is asked of them physically but very soon afterwards they will collapse from their exertions and may take several days to recover. Baroness Afshar: As a disability contact person in I know that the noble Lord is aware of this. However, the department of politics at the University of York, I unless all DWP staff, including the agency medical have found that it is impossible even for the most practitioners and the contractors, are convinced that sympathetic supervisor to know when their students ME/CFS sufferers are not inadequate attention seekers are going through a bad phase. As a matter of policy, looking for sympathy and are trained and made the university makes it the responsibility of the teachers, thoroughly aware of the nature of this illness, there is not the taught, to notice when their students are not a risk that people with ME/CFS are going to be doing well. The university has a whole department harassed and distressed and made more sick than they devoted to dealing with the problems that their students already are. Who will be legally responsible if a claimant face. If intelligent, articulate students are not made complies with instructions for fear of losing benefits responsible for saying that they have problems, and if and is made seriously or irreversibly more ill? it takes a good year for any of their problems to be I have come across none who are not eager to be dealt with, how can an adviser in one meeting be able able to lead a normal life. They desperately want to be to cope with problems which are not easily soluble? able to rejoin society and to become financially independent. Most have tried repeatedly to return to a Lord Skelmersdale: I am going to have to put my normal life only to suffer repeated setbacks. This is slightly provocative hat on. It occurs to me that the why they are so strident in their requests to Her worse the level of training, the greater the level of Majesty’s Government for funding for biomedical, appeals, which I think is the main thought behind the rather than psychiatric, research into their illness. At amendment proposed by the noble Countess, Lady the moment there is no definite cause or cure. This is Mar. I make no apology for opening my few remarks not a reason to penalise sufferers or even to frighten on the noble Countess’s amendment by saying that it them with threats of benefit cuts if they do not comply. is right that if we are going to have individual action I am not suggesting that everyone in this group should plans, that we must make sure that they take account be left to moulder in their illness and not be offered of the individual. As the noble Countess has said, if a assistance in an attempt to resume a normal life. I am person suffers from a fluctuating condition, it will asking that they are not penalised if they fail to meet have a very different impact on their ability to undertake the expectations of their adviser or cannot maintain a that obligation of work-related activity than if they consistent work pattern. had no condition at all, or different even from someone There are a number of other illnesses in this group, who suffers from a consistent and predictable condition. such as irritable bowel syndrome, fibromyalgia and If the plans are to be as individually tailored, as the multiple chemical sensitivity, which equally should be Minister says, we must assume that such fluctuating recognised and their sufferers treated with sensitivity. I symptoms will be taken into account. But the basic beg to move. question is how. Who will take this into account? We heard a horrifying story from the fairly long letter Baroness Thomas of Winchester: We are assured at which the noble Countess read out. It is clear that the every turn that those with fluctuating health conditions, individual or individuals conducting the computerised such as ME, MS, rheumatoid arthritis and mental assessments that we learnt about during our discussions GC 313 Welfare Reform Bill[LORDS] Welfare Reform Bill GC 314

[LORD SKELMERSDALE] there is a further dimension because of the nature of of the new employment and support allowance simply their illness. It is not just that personal advisers can were not up to the job. That may not be entirely their inevitably respond only to what is presented to them fault. It may be that the individual in question was during the half-hour interview when we know that the more able at that moment to carry out the individual condition may change within the day, as the noble tests that are required than she would be if she went Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, said, or within the week, home. and so on. The doctor making the assessment may be Again, I have to declare an interest in that I have a poorly trained but an employer of someone with a son-in-law with severe ME. He finds that at moments fluctuating condition can face a difficult situation, he is able to do quite normal things. But then, a few too. Will employers come up against the Disability hours later, he will collapse for another two, three, four Discrimination Act when they have an employee whose or five days. If you have an assessment in a good patterns of attendance are so unpredictable in a job period, it is extremely difficult—this was the point which requires reliability of contact or interfacing made by the noble Baroness, Lady Ashfar—to come with the public? to a realistic conclusion of what may happen in the This is a huge problem that has troubled the DWP, rest of the week or month. How you train people to and the DSS before that, for 15 years. I know that it is have proper observation or realisation of that fact is almost impossible, and I am referring not only to MS, beyond me. But there must be better brains than mine but a range of conditions, including depression and so around the system who could get to the bottom of it. on, which have cyclical patterns. It is not just a problem Until we do, all hope for the people whom the noble for the adviser or the doctor; it is going to be a Countess has been talking about is lost. problem for the future employer. Therefore, one thing that a specialist adviser for the department may be 3.45 pm able to do—I do not know, because this is so difficult—is Amendment 90 is the significant one in this group, to think about the situation from the point of view of referring to the training of the provider to recognise the employer and think about work-related plans and symptoms, which is what I have been trying to explain activity and preparation for work that reflects not just in a nutshell. I expect that we shall have a good deal the condition of the individual but makes that individual more to say on this matter as there are more amendments have a chance in the job market. Otherwise, all that on the horizon dealing with it. The training of staff investment will be as naught. who will operate these schemes is the key. Putting on We are asking a huge job of the personal adviser: my pseudo-civil servant hat, I am afraid that this not only to have a very sensitive and skilled interviewing amendment is probably in the wrong part of the Bill. capacity, like the doctors, but also to understand the It is so fundamental that it should be there well before needs that an employer may have for that person, who we get to the matter of directions. The Minister will may be wishing but worried, apprehensive and frightened probably have something to say about that. I certainly about going back into the labour market. We have understand all the points that have been made this done a lot about linking rules and all that sort of stuff, afternoon. I wish that I had a golden rod to solve but I wonder whether my noble friend could reassure them, but I am afraid that I have not. us that personal advisers will not just be given extra skills to understand and respond to the needs of the Baroness Murphy: I have an extra question for the employee but are actually thinking about how the Minister. I was struck, as always, by the noble Countess, employer would respond—and, frankly, not simply Lady Mar, and her description of the problems of sack the employee at the first available opportunity. chronic fatigue syndrome and ME. One of the problems that she highlighted was the poor approach by the The Countess of Mar: The Minister may recall that medical adviser who rated the condition. It is a long- this subject has come up on numerous occasions at standing difficulty that the doctors doing the assessments Question Time, and I have asked which employer have been rather the creatures controlling the gateway would take on someone with any serious problem. to money. They are not always sensitive to mental health problems, the type of syndromes described by Lord Skelmersdale: Before the Minister responds to the noble Countess, or the more sophisticated and this short debate, perhaps I might be allowed a difficult medical conditions. They are not well trained supplementary. I mentioned the computer-aided to assess them. assessment, which was the substance of the letter read We have the same problem with people looking for out by the noble Countess, Lady Mar. benefits such as attendance allowance, where little thought is given to the fluctuating nature of dementia, The Countess of Mar: She was examined by a for example. I am not sure where this comes in the Bill doctor. but I wanted to add the question: are we sure that the medical advisers are also properly trained? Lord Skelmersdale: Sure. But I mean the DWP medical team uses a computer-aided assessment to Baroness Hollis of Heigham: Like other queries that make a final assessment of the individual’s problems. have been thrown at my noble friend over the past few This is now up and running. Can the Minister tell me Committee days, this is an insoluble problem. On the whether the situation has got any better? When we last one hand, people with fluctuating disabilities may discussed the matter within the context of the first want to enter the world of work, and for that they Welfare Reform Bill, this was going to be the all-singing, must remain attached to the labour market. However, all-dancing thing that would cure everything. Has it? GC 315 Welfare Reform Bill[18 JUNE 2009] Welfare Reform Bill GC 316

Lord McKenzie of Luton: I thank the noble Countess will be used only in a very small minority of cases. for these amendments. She raises again an important Advisers will always encourage, persuade and support issue that she has campaigned about for a long time. I people into activity they genuinely feel is necessary. have received a copy of the letter, but I hope she will This brings me to Amendment 55. As stated in forgive me for not having had a chance to consider it Clauses 2 and 8, any direction to undertake an activity in any detail. It would not be possible for me to must be reasonable and have regard to the person’s comment on a specific case, but I shall make sure that circumstances. Hence, any direction to undertake an the letter is passed on to the district manager and activity by the personal adviser must be appropriate to given in evidence to those looking at the assessment of the customer’s abilities and circumstances. That would the WCA. include taking into account any fluctuating health I agree with the noble Countess that it is extremely condition that the customer may have. important that, when issuing directions to undertake If, for any reason, the customer was directed into work-related activities, personal advisers must have an activity which they felt was inappropriate the customer regard to a customer’s medical condition. That would could ask for the direction to be reconsidered and it include taking into account whether the condition is could then be varied or revoked. If the customer does likely to fluctuate and the impact that that may have not comply with the requirement to undertake an on the customer’s ability to carry out the direction. activity because they were not able to do so due to the They must, of course, have received adequate training fluctuating nature of their condition, they will be able to enable them to do that. It may help to reassure the to raise this as good cause for their failure to comply. noble Countess if I outline the safeguards built into This will be covered in regulations. the system to protect the progression-to-work customers It might be helpful—I am conscious— with fluctuating health conditions. Amendment 90 relates specifically to training of personal advisers. As we discussed under the previous Lord Skelmersdale: Surely they should not have got amendment, they are key to the successful delivery of to that point; it should have been recognised far earlier. this model. We will develop a workforce development strategy to work through the implications of the adviser role, which will also enable us to develop, with the help Lord McKenzie of Luton: Indeed, the purpose of of our stakeholders, comprehensive additional training the process is to identify and bag up these issues right material for personal advisers to enhance the knowledge at the start of the process of an ESA claim. Clearly and skills necessary to deliver this more personalised issues might arise and mistakes might be made. approach and ensure that they do not ask too much of Notwithstanding recognition of the fluctuating nature an individual. However, it is already the case that of the condition, a direction may be made that somebody Jobcentre Plus pathways advisers receive training on a thought was consistent with that, and it proves not to range of mild-to-moderate health conditions. In provider- be. These things will happen. led pathways areas, advisers are also trained on a I am conscious that I am talking for too long, as range of health conditions and work with a range of noble Lords have indicated, but I want to make sure specialist organisations on which pathways advisers that I get something on the record in relation to this can seek advice and support. about the evidence-gathering procedure. When an individual makes a claim for ESA, this is supported by Jobcentre Plus personal advisers are able to seek medical certification from their GP to confirm that advice from specialist disability employment advisers the individual has a health condition or disability. and work psychologists with regard to customers with That is the starting point. Individuals are provided complex needs. If they feel it is appropriate, advisers with a questionnaire in which they detail their functional may refer customers with complex conditions to DEAs capability. If this indicates that an individual is likely and work psychologists, as we have just discussed, for to be in the support group or to be treated as having additional advice and support. limited capability for work—for example, as a hospital Turning to Amendment 93, the work capability inpatient or currently receiving a course of treatment— assessment has been designed to take better account then Atos will procure evidence either from the individual’s of these fluctuating conditions. In the face-to-face GP or the relevant healthcare provider to confirm this, assessment, the healthcare professional carrying out and the evidence is treated as a medical fact. If an the WCA and the work-focused health-related assessment individual is called to a face-to-face assessment then should also analyse an individual’s functional capability they are able to bring with them any relevant evidence over time. It is not a snapshot of a person’s condition to support their claim for benefit. That may include a on the day of assessment. report from their GP or specialist. They are also During the early stages of their claim, an ESA encouraged to bring a companion if they want to. customer will undergo a work-focused health-related I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, that the assessment completed by a healthcare professional. A role of Atos doctors is not meant to be as keepers of report of the work-focused health-related assessment the gateway to funds. That is not their role and I hope will be produced and sent to the customer’s personal that it is not in practice. adviser. The report will flag up whether the customer’s The WCA assesses an individual’s functional capability health condition may fluctuate and the impact that as a result of their condition. The healthcare professionals this is likely to have on the customer. carrying out the assessments are therefore trained in I assure noble Lords that the power to direct disability medicine in order to access that capability. progression to work customers to a specific activity They also receive ongoing medical education in order GC 317 Welfare Reform Bill[LORDS] Welfare Reform Bill GC 318

[LORD MCKENZIE OF LUTON] Lord McKenzie of Luton: I had not quite finished. to remain up to speed with developments in the field The department is currently carrying out a review of of disability medicine. This includes training on the the work-capability assessment. The purpose of the need to inquire about variability in an individual’s review is to ensure that the WCA is identifying individuals capability, both day to day and in the longer term. The for the correct benefits. A group of experts in the field criteria by which an individual is assessed require that of physical disability, mental function and occupational they be able to carry out an activity reliably and health are undertaking analysis of WCA cases in repeatedly for the majority of the time. If they are order to evaluate the effectiveness of the assessment in unable to do so, they are considered unable to carry it identifying individuals who are incapable of work-related out at all. So fluctuations, irrespective of their frequency activity, who are currently unfit for work but would and duration, are therefore reflected by the practitioner benefit from support and eventually return to work, providing an opinion based on the individual’s capability and those who, in spite of their condition, are fit to for the majority of the time. continue work at that time. A broad range of conditions has been included in the cases analysed, including 4pm those that are variable or fluctuating. Each practitioner employed by Atos Healthcare to Picking up on my noble friend’s points, representatives carry out work-capability assessments is approved by from both employers and disability rights groups are the chief medical adviser to the department. Their also involved in the review and have contributed to continued approval is dependent upon ongoing discussion around the descriptors themselves, their demonstration that the work being carried out meets a applicability and appropriateness. There is a statutory satisfactory standard. This is done through regular requirement to carry out an independent review of the monitoring prior to approval for new entrants, and assessment every year for the first five years of its continuing random audits by the medical services running. This will provide further opportunity to evaluate quality monitoring and auditing system. Approval to the assessment and its effectiveness in appropriately do these examinations could be removed if their work identifying fluctuating conditions. I will make a point does not continue to be of the required standard. of referring the letter that the noble Countess sent to me to whoever is running that assessment. I do not know the extent to which it could be included, but The Countess of Mar: Does the Minister recall a bit they should be made aware of its content. of a scandal in the Midlands three or four years ago, The noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, asked about when a doctor said that the contractor was paying computer-aided decision-making. I think he is referring bonuses to people for turning people away from benefits? to the LiMA system. We are reviewing it as part of our Will the Minister confirm that any contract that Her review of the work capability assessment. Majesty’s Government have with contractors will cut The noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, focused on how out any question of doctors getting bonuses for turning advisers will help customers manage conditions in people away? That immediately causes problems. employment. Condition management programmes are available to help customers with a range of health Lord McKenzie of Luton: I sincerely hope that that conditions and focus on learning how to manage the is never a contract term, but I would need to get condition in work. I realise that that still focuses on formal advice that it is not. I am happy to write to the the individual, not the employer. Off the top of my noble Countess on that, but to have it as a requirement head, I do not know the extent to which access to would seem perverse and run quite contrary to what work and other such programmes are brought to bear, we are trying to do. but I will have a look at that. I know that in this debate, like many we have had in Committee, we have asserted that this is the system, The Countess of Mar: I would like to see the paying this is the training and these are the skills that the of bonuses expressly banned in the contract. advisers have, and we perhaps have a mismatch between that and individual experiences. There is no easy way around that. There is no easy way of squaring that in Lord McKenzie of Luton: I think we are straining this Committee, other than keeping engagement focused the contract terms and its construction, which is currently on the outcomes that our programme is meant to beyond my brief. However, the principle that Atos deliver. Notwithstanding that, I hope that what I have Healthcare professionals should not be remunerated said has provided some reassurance that safeguards by reference to somehow keeping people from the are built into the system that will sufficiently protect benefits system must be absolutely right. If I were able customers with fluctuating health conditions. With to read this Box note, I might be able to give the noble that in mind, I urge the noble Countess to withdraw Countess even greater assurance. Perhaps I will be able the amendment. to by the time I have finished. It looks as though I am right in principle, but I will follow up. Lord Skelmersdale: I am sorry, but I really must repeat my question for the third time. What is the Lord Skelmersdale: I do not know if the Minister is situation on appeals? about to leave the subject of Atos Healthcare and the computer-aided assessment. If he is, I repeat my question Lord McKenzie of Luton: I do not have those data about whether appeals have gone up since the system to hand. They are not in the Box. I will have a look was introduced. and write to the noble Lord. GC 319 Welfare Reform Bill[18 JUNE 2009] Welfare Reform Bill GC 320

The Countess of Mar: I have just heard the noble a fair cause, as I am sure the Minister would agree— Baroness, Lady Hollis, say that 60 per cent are successful. “I called the agency to change the time of the Session. I was told I am grateful to the Minister and to all noble Lords there was no flexibility, only the date could be changed. I was then who have taken part in this debate for the support that informed there is a crèche on the premises. Because my son feeds on and off, particularly in the morning, this is unlikely to be of I have had. Is it the actor Richard Wilson who says, “I much use to me. He is unlikely to stay in the crèche anyway, so I don’t believe it!”? After 15 years of bitter experience, I will have to keep him with me, which will be disruptive to the am tempted to say that. However, I look forward with group”. hope—I am not a pessimist—to seeing this working If this good lady’s supposition is true, it would be a and serving these people well. They have had such a cause for a direction, would it not? She has been rough time over all these years. I will read what the informed that there is no opportunity to change the Minister said. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. time or date of her work-focused interview. That must be wrong. I shall of course send the Minister the full Amendment 55 withdrawn. letter. I should be very grateful for his consideration of this matter, in relation particularly to directions, because Amendment 56 not moved. that is what we are talking about. I beg to move. 4.10 pm Lord McKenzie of Luton: As the noble Baroness, Sitting suspended. Lady Meacher, said, we have ranged over this issue extensively. If the noble Lord will allow, I shall respond 4.20 pm just very briefly to his reference to the letter. Obviously, without sight of the letter, it is difficult to provide any comprehensive comment on it and, in any event, it Amendment 57 would be inappropriate to do so on an individual case. Tabled by Baroness Meacher I presume that the child involved is under the age of 57: Clause 2, page 7, line 9, at end insert— three, so one is talking about conditionality around “( ) may not be in regard to the use of specific types of work-focused interviews and not work-related activity. childcare, or particular childcare providers” Attending a work-focused interview is mandatory, but a lone parent can give good cause for not attending. Lord Skelmersdale: Despite the fact that the noble On the face of it, there may well be good cause in the Baroness, Lady Meacher, has decided to not to move circumstances to which the noble Lord referred, but it the amendment, and even though it has been partially would be quite wrong of me to offer a judgment on spoken to, it is perfectly within my rights, since it is on that without the detailed knowledge and he would not the Marshalled List, to move it. I would not be taking expect me to do that. But I am very happy to follow up this action if I had not been passed the most disturbing on that point outside the Committee. letter. Since we are now talking about the reason for directions, it is important that I refer to it. Lord Skelmersdale: I apologise for detaining the Committee even for these five minutes, but I thought I Baroness Meacher: I did not move the amendment should draw this particularly germane fact to the because I felt that we had rehearsed the arguments in attention of the Minister rather more forcefully than relation to it fully on a previous Committee day and I just sending a copy of a letter, which I do moderately did not want to waste the time of your Lordships by regularly on all sorts of subjects, as the Minister will re-rehearsing them. I did not feel that there was anything acknowledge. I anticipated that I would get absolutely material that one could add to our previous, full debate. nowhere today for the very reason that the Minister has fairly given. But, as I say, I make no apology. I beg Lord Skelmersdale: I understand that, but had I not leave to withdraw the amendment. been handed the letter, in only the past 10 minutes or so, I would not have dared to take this step. We are Amendment 57 withdrawn. talking about directions in relation to childcare. It is true that we fully deployed the arguments on childcare during our earlier debates, occasioned not only by the Amendment 58 noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, but also by the noble Moved by Baroness Thomas of Winchester Baroness, Lady Thomas, and—dare I say it?—me, on the first amendment that we discussed on Monday last 58: Clause 2, page 7, line 9, at end insert— week. The letter to which I refer is about a mother on “( ) may not require independent job search; income support who was told to attend a compulsory ( ) may not require participation in a work trial; work-focused group information session with up to ( ) may not require undertaking voluntary work; 15 other single mothers at a particular time on a ( ) may not require part-time working” particular day. The letter—I shall not read out all of it—states: Baroness Thomas of Winchester: Amendment 58 is “I am still breastfeeding. My son is very active and only just intended to probe the Government’s intentions as to learning to walk. Whilst he does eat some solids, 80-90% of his what claimants are expected to do or not do as part of food intake is still breastmilk, about half of which is consumed in the mornings between 6am to noon. He is thriving on it … work-related activity if they are in the progression-to-work Because I would rather not disrupt his eating pattern at this group. The boundaries between the progression-to-work stage”— group and the work-ready group seem to be rather GC 321 Welfare Reform Bill[LORDS] Welfare Reform Bill GC 322

[BARONESS THOMAS OF WINCHESTER] a stint in the voluntary sector not be useful for the blurred. For those claimants who need a lot of help same aforesaid reasons? The same is even truer of the and support before they are ready to look for work it fourth item, part-time work, which is something that could be bewildering and confusing to conflate the very many people would welcome. I accept the point two groups. Professor Gregg acknowledged that claimants’ about requiring people to do something; it is a very routes back to work varied a lot. He gave five examples coercive activity. However, to be effective action plans of work-related activity that might be considered for need to be flexible and take into account the circumstances the progression-to-work group. The first three are not of the individual—hence, I have tabled the amendments contentious: that is, to stabilise a claimant’s own or in the group starting Amendment 45, to which I may family situation, perhaps taking advice about debt or have referred too many times—but also the market a housing problem; to manage their health for work; conditions, and to be prepared to take advantage of and to improve their skills for work. However, the next the opportunities available at the time. I do not agree two seem to contradict having the progression-to-work that we should rule out options, which could render group and the work-ready group as separate groups. these plans very inflexible and therefore less likely to They are to look for work and to prepare for full-time succeed. employment. All that we seek with this amendment is As for volunteering, many people up and down this clarification that the last two activities would not be country who are not in a position of being benefit directed with an action plan for a progression-to-work claimants or potential benefit claimants use their time claimant. very wisely and helpfully for the country as a whole by Finally, I must again protest about volunteering volunteering. Your Lordships will have heard me say being one of the suggestions for work-related activity before that for 10 years I was chairman of the Stroke which could be subject to a sanction. On Monday, Association, which, like many other charities—medical when I raised this subject, the Minister said that if ones but others as well—such as BCTV, although I volunteering was part of an action plan, and was not cannot remember what that stands for, rely to a great fulfilled, the claimant could be sanctioned. The Minister extent on unpaid employees. I see absolutely nothing said that I was “pressing for particular terminology”. I wrong with that in general terms or in relation with do not mind what it is called. Perhaps “community this Bill. work” or “community activity” would be better. But to call such activity “voluntary work”, which could be sanctioned if not undertaken, is quite ridiculous, even Baroness Meacher: I support the amendment to the if it is part of an action plan. I beg to move. extent that I, too, am bewildered about conflating these two completely different statuses because of the fear that that might engender. I would be grateful if 4.30 pm the Minister could clarify whether the level of sanction might be different. I can understand that it might be Lord Skelmersdale: I was startled to see Amendment 58. appropriate to have similar options that might be The four activities that it seeks to rule out—independent applied to people in different circumstances, but if I job searches, participation in a work trial, undertaking were a social worker working with these people I voluntary work or part-time working—are all rather would want to know clearly what the difference is for good ideas, are they not? All those activities might, in my client between being on a progression-to-work their own way, make positive contributions to increasing route and being on the work-ready group. There is a a person’s readiness and suitability to entering the job need for clarity. I am grateful to the noble Baroness for market. However, as always, I listened with interest to moving the amendment and look forward to the Minister’s the noble Baroness and accept that the amendment is response. not as severe as perhaps it appears on the Marshalled List. An independent job search should perhaps not be The Countess of Mar: The noble Lord, Lord required, as it might allow an unscrupulous personal Skelmersdale, said something to the effect that claimants adviser to offload his own work on to a hapless should not require people to hold their hands, but in jobseeker. I presume that the idea is for the adviser to the first case study that we were sent the adviser took work in tandem with the participant as a guide or the individual to Marks and Spencer and even stayed mentor; however, that should not mean that the participant with her there for some time. In the second case study, should sit back and have everything done for him. it was a similar set-up. So it looks as though the case Would it not be better to say that while independent workers will be expected on some occasions to stay job searches should not always and immediately be with their clients. required, it might nevertheless be encouraged and so should not be precluded altogether? I am still less Baroness Afshar: I am sorry to repeat what I always convinced that a person should not be required to say, but it worries me that this distinction is not made. work in a work trial. Even though it is a trial, it might Womenlooking after children are in full-time employment be a very useful learning experience, which could be and cannot be seen as jobseekers or job-ready. If the put to good use later; learning basic skills such as provision of reasonableness is understood, we cannot dressing smartly and timekeeping would help to pave expect them to be both full-time mothers and on the way to a more permanent position. progression to work, unless we provide the kind of I hope that to require voluntary work is oxymoronic, jobs that recognise their specific skills of negotiation but if it was used as another stepping stone—why not? of care. I am sorry to say that as yet, I have not come If there are no paid jobs immediately available, might across many employers who do. GC 323 Welfare Reform Bill[18 JUNE 2009] Welfare Reform Bill GC 324

Lord McKenzie of Luton: Perhaps I can deal with As a result, parents who are eager to enter work, the last point first. The suggestion that mothers cannot because they have acquired the skills necessary to do effectively be full-time mothers and involved in a so and feel the time is right for them, may agree with progression-to-work group is not something that we an adviser that activities such as participation in voluntary accept, nor is it part of the structure of the Bill. To work or work trials would be extremely beneficial in recap, the thrust of the proposals is to identify people helping them move to that next step and have that who are work-ready. That certainly would not include accepted on their action plan as work-related activity. a lone parent, for example, whose youngest child was In such a situation, we would not want to deny parents under seven. But we shall test through a pathfinder a the opportunity to do these activities—I think that requirement for work-related activity, subject to safeguards was the point made by the noble Lord, Lord when the youngest child is between three and six. We Skelmersdale—especially when by entering work they are doing that for the reasons that we discussed extensively. are not only moving their household out of poverty Work is important, as is the impact on children of but also improving their life chances. Once recorded parents being in work, as well as family circumstances on the action plan, these activities would become a being better out of poverty. requirement and parents would need to show at future That is not to diminish or fail to recognise the huge meetings that they had undertaken the activity and responsibilities that go with parenting, particularly for met the requirement. Failure to meet the requirements lone parents. I strongly make the point that that without good cause might result in a sanction being should not preclude the engagement, subject to imposed because the action plan can always be protections, of people in the labour market. renegotiated, as long as other agreed activities are suggested. Although this amendment reinforces our commitment Baroness Afshar: Does that not make the participatory that work-related activity will not include applying for, nature of decision-making rather complex? Is the decision or being required to enter, work, it would remove made by the mother whether she is able to take on new some categories that could be counted as work-related or additional work, or is it is prescribed by the Bill? I activity by an adviser and benefit the individual concerned. am slightly worried about where the participation That is why we are unable to accept it. comes in.

Lord McKenzie of Luton: If a lone parent is in the Baroness Afshar: I have just received a letter from a progression-to-work group, with the youngest child mother who is on income support and has an 11 month- aged three or four, the process would be through a old son. She writes: work-focused interview with Jobcentre Plus and “I am being forced to attend a compulsory work-focused engagement in drawing up and agreeing co-operatively group information session with up to 15 other single mothers this Friday morning at 9.45. If I don’t go, I face losing my benefits”. an action plan. There would then be a requirement to undertake that action plan in relation to work-related Later, she writes that, in order to cope with her domestic activity. The key is what is in the action plan, which is duties, she tried to call the agency to change the a powerful opportunity for the individual to engage session, but it refused. and explain what she believes she can and cannot do. That is the co-operative process involved. We will not Lord McKenzie of Luton: I apologise for interrupting be rolling it out until it has been tested in pathfinders. the noble Baroness. I think that is the same letter that The progression-to-work approach is based on the the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, referred to in the principle that most working-age benefit recipients should debate on the earlier amendment. I hope the noble be taking active steps on the journey back to work, as Baroness will understand that it would be impossible I have just explained. We are confident that for the to comment on a specific case. I am happy to take it up vast majority, this mix of support and encouragement after the Committee and am grateful to her for raising will prove a positive process that helps people to the matter. improve their employment prospects. Before turning to the amendment in detail, I want to provide a clear assurance to noble Lords that those Baroness Thomas of Winchester: I am grateful for in the progression-to-work group will not be directed the support I have had from the noble Baronesses, to look for or to start work but rather to undertake Lady Afshar and Lady Meacher. This little debate has key work-related activities that will help them to prepare highlighted that there is confusion between what is for either full-time or part-time work. Noble Lords work-related activity that the progression-to-work people will be aware that some customers will be closer to the will be expected to do and the work-ready people. The labour market than others and may want to enter noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, talked about part-time work more quickly. Others may want to undertake work being fine. We are surely talking about a part-time more limited activity, waiting until their child is older work trial. Part-time work for progression-to-work before moving into paid work. To accommodate that, people sounds as though it is a permanent situation. we do not intend to have a specific definition of what work-related activity an individual should undertake. Rather, we want to establish the principle that everyone Lord Skelmersdale: If the noble Baroness will forgive in the progression-to-work group is on an active journey me, her amendment states, towards work, but keeping the specific steps open for “may not require part-time working”. claimants and advisers to agree. It was that to which I was referring. GC 325 Welfare Reform Bill[LORDS] Welfare Reform Bill GC 326

Baroness Thomas of Winchester: The noble Lord Baroness Thomas of Winchester: I am grateful for seemed to be in favour of part-time working for the that elucidation, which is really what I wanted to hear. progression-to-work group. Part-time working is just I thought that it was not clear in Professor Gregg’s list working, but only part-time. I would have thought of those five items that I read out. In light of what the that a part-time work trial is different. I presume that Minister has said, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. what work-related activity will be will be spelled out in regulations. Will we see them later, or are we going to Amendment 58 withdrawn. have any more detail? Amendment 59 not moved. Lord McKenzie of Luton: As I indicated when I responded initially, we do not want to be too prescriptive Amendment 60 about what work-related activity entails, for the obvious reason that it very much depends upon the personal Moved by Lord Skelmersdale circumstances of the individuals involved and the 60: Clause 2, page 7, line 15, after first “of,” insert “or iterative process of engagement between the jobcentre contractors to,” adviser and the individual in constructing the action plan; so there will be a framework. I tried to make it Lord Skelmersdale: This is alarming group of clear that there will be no requirement to enter work amendments: Amendments 60, 61, 64, 65, 151 to 153, or to undertake work. Should people wish to agree 155 and 155A; it is also appropriate for me to speak to that that is what they want to do because they want to the question of whether Clause 25 shall stand part of fast-track themselves through the work-related activity, the Bill, even at this early stage. However, given the we would be wrong to deny them that choice. somewhat quizzical reaction of the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, to the first amendment after our break, 4.45 pm I reserve the right to come back to the question of whether Clause 25 shall stand part of the Bill when we Baroness Thomas of Winchester: That is something actually reach it. that we can all agree on. If it is all by agreement, I have We have now reached the point in the Bill on which no problem with any of it. The difficulty is that the whole of the welfare-to-work provision will stand someone in the progression-to-work group may find or fall. I confess that the amendment is not the most that they are being expected to undertake part-time elegant that I have ever produced, not least because work which they are not ready for. the Minister will tell me that, I come back to this problem about the terminology “such person (if any) as the Secretary of State may authorise”, of “voluntary work”. I spoke to my noble friend Lady Neuberger, who has just written a report about includes contractors. My first concern is what on earth volunteering for the Government, about this. She is the “if any” is doing there. We all know that contractors horrified that volunteering could be part of a requirement. are going to be used as, no matter what training they I well understand that it could be a very desirable are given, personal advisers will only have the sketchiest activity indeed. For example, it might be suggested knowledge of, say, stroke, mental illness, learning that someone in the progression-to-work group works disabilities or many of the other disabilities that rightly in a charity shop for a few days a week. That would be concern not only the noble Lord, Lord Rix, but all a nice thing; I would love to do it myself, as it would be Members of the Committee. I hope, too, that they will an interesting thing to do. However, if it is mandated, have no personal knowledge of drug addiction or even it is no longer voluntary work. There is an element of the effects of occasional drug use. This, however, is for compulsion there, so I do not like the phrase “voluntary another debate on Clause 9. work” in this context. We know, because the Minister told us last week, that there is a list of preferred bidders on the DWP website. I was going to say “belatedly”, due to the The Countess of Mar: Could we perhaps say, “working article in the Financial Times, but perhaps that is not in the voluntary sector”? fair; I am not sure on what date the list of preferred bidders got on to the DWP website. That is a tease—I do not expect a reaction. The firms involved are Baroness Thomas of Winchester: Anything but mostly big ones, which contract for all sorts of government “undertaking voluntary work”. Anyway, I shall read projects; I really cannot believe that they will have any what the Minister has said. more knowledge of the problems that beset individual long-term JSA claimants than Jobcentre Plus personal Lord McKenzie of Luton: To be absolutely clear, advisers. Indeed, on the whole, I would expect them to there can be no requirement imposed upon an individual have less. They will therefore have to subcontract, in the progression-to-work group to undertake work which raises the question whether the head contracts or part-time work. However, if they wish to do that will have any reference to the sort of subcontractors and have it as part of their action, it could ultimately that are likely to be appropriate. I hope that the pilots lead to some mandatory action in relation to volunteering will cover the full range of problems likely to be found, or working in the voluntary sector. However, there can but, by definition, there can be no guarantee of this. be no compulsion placed upon people to enter work I have remarked before, and have no hesitation in or undertake part-time work if they are in the repeating again—and again if necessary—that these progression-to-work group. contracts are to be front-end loaded. The major part GC 327 Welfare Reform Bill[18 JUNE 2009] Welfare Reform Bill GC 328 of the money to be paid to the contractor comes with scheme of Clauses 1 and 2. I shall leave it there and his engagement with a number of long-term unemployed hope that I have opened up the debate about the whole claimants, presumably in a particular geographical of new Section 2G. I beg to move. area. I am guessing now what that will look like. I am grateful to the Minister—or at least I assume I am grateful to him; I am certainly grateful to someone in Baroness Turner of Camden: I have some difficulty the department, who had a little meeting with me with these amendments, except for the clause stand yesterday on the subject of pilots. That was volunteered part. My noble friend will not be surprised to hear by the Minister or by someone in the department and that the TUC is totally opposed to the contracting out was extremely useful. I hope that it will result in some of JCP functions. It has pointed out on innumerable sort of written guidance on what is proposed sometime occasions that privatised employment programmes do next week, which I am sure it would be appropriate to not outperform those provided by Jobcentre Plus, and circulate to other Members of the Committee. But as gives a number of examples. far as one can guess from the list of preferred bidders, It also makes the strong point that contracting out, we are talking about geographical areas. Incidentally, I which is currently undertaken by Jobcentre Plus, may can find the word “geographical” applied to the word eventually undermine the Government’s ability to intervene “area” nowhere in the Bill, although references are directly in the labour market. That is an important made in the notes on clauses. Perhaps the Minister point in view of the unemployment that we now face could explain, not least because “area” could mean throughout the economy. One of the ways in which a anything, such as “area of expertise”, for example. number of us feel that unemployment can be dealt with effectively is through intervention by the Government I return to the point about front-end loading. If I in appropriate situations to try to ensure that employment was a conspiracy theorist, which I hope that your is maintained for a large part of the workforce. Lordships do not think I am, I might suggest that the The current negotiations with providers about possible whole objective of new Section 2G of the Social new contracting-out arrangements to take account of Security Administration Act was to get the long-term the sudden increase in unemployment indicate just unemployed out of the hair of Jobcentre Plus. That how slow and unresponsive a contact-based system would be one possibility; the other, which I hope can be. I feel inclined to support the noble Lord, Lord pertains, is that personal advisers within Jobcentre Skelmersdale, if he were to press his motion to oppose Plus need extra help in getting the long-term unemployed the Question that Clause 25 should stand part of the closer to the job market and, one hopes, into full-time Bill. Whether it is on the same basis, I do not know; I work. If the contractor succeeds in this, which after all am not certain that he would oppose it on quite the is the ultimate objective, they should be paid more same grounds as me. I oppose contracting out what than the 20 per cent that is, I believe, currently on should be a government service. offer. Should an incoming Government want to change this at any time, it would appear that the Secretary of The Countess of Mar: I, too, support the State could cancel the contract at any time by virtue of amendment—particularly what the noble Baroness, new subsection (6)(b). If that happens, will compensation Lady Turner, said. This is a delicate subject, as being be payable? Will it say so in the contract? That is the unemployed is not funny. It needs to be handled reason for Amendment 65. sensitively and flexibly, and the Government need to I assume that the contracts have break points at have full control of it. Having been a civil servant, I which it would be more appropriate to renegotiate feel for them. We should be employing civil servants them, hence Amendment 61. That brings me to my rather than paying over the odds for contractors. We next question. What happens regarding the personal might get it cheaply at the beginning, but not necessarily adviser in Jobcentre Plus? Does the contractor produce at the end because of the quality of the work and a personal adviser of its own? That seems to me the number of appeals that arise. I firmly believe that it obvious scenario. If so, what is the relationship between should be kept in-house and that the Government the two advisers? It is already clear that action plans should control training. Maybe that is an ideological are to be contracted out; indeed, the only thing that, situation, but that is what I feel. rightly, cannot be, is sanctions. If there is a dispute Baroness Meacher: I am very suspicious of the between the two advisers, how can the claimant choose contracting-out model with this sort of work. I understand who to listen to? How is the claimant to know that that the final decision to sanction, reduce or cancel they are in a contracted-out regime? I hope that the benefits would remain with civil servants, but there Jobcentre Plus adviser will tell them that they will have can be no question that if private contractors have to agree and follow a new action plan promoted by targets that they are expected to fulfil, the sense of someone working for the contactor. We really need to pressure on the claimant will be of a different order know who is in control of this situation. altogether. Amendment 61 is purely a drafting amendment. That is one of my major concerns, but it also Amendments 155 and 155A are also drafting amendments, reduces the job satisfaction for civil servants in that but surely any mention of the Secretary of State position. They will have lost all the job satisfaction of includes authorised persons as equating to direct working closely with people, in getting to know and employees like officials in jobcentres. I am sure that understand them. They will be left with the unpleasant other noble Lords will have a whole raft of questions task of ticking the box which eliminates somebody’s that they want to put to the Minister on contracting benefits. There are major implications for the Jobcentre out. As I said, it is such a vital part of the whole Plus staff and major implications for claimants. GC 329 Welfare Reform Bill[LORDS] Welfare Reform Bill GC 330

[BARONESS MEACHER] either as a prime contractor or a subcontractor that I understand that there will be targets for the can be brought to bear. That would not necessarily be private sector people, and there is a risk that some at the same level in Jobcentre Plus. clients will simply not get a service at all because their chances of success will be much less. That is yet Baroness Afshar: I am very grateful that there will another risk. I am sure that there are others, too. The be specific help, but my question was: what if they do idea of companies making profits out of these not deliver? I have a note saying, “They can’t do it”, processes of testing somebody’s willingness to and there do not seem to be many sanctions on them undertake all sorts of work-related activities and so to deliver. on feels somewhat immoral. I have difficulty with it as an approach to this sensitive work with members of the public. Lord McKenzie of Luton: I was coming to that. I will respond in detail to the letter that the noble 5pm Baroness has sent to me. Clearly, if people are not complying with their contracts, they can be terminated. Baroness Afshar: The existing private companies I shall come to the monitoring arrangements in a do not deliver. I sent a letter from a teacher to the moment. Minister who was told by the NUT that she is entitled to New Section 2G will allow contracted organisations, childcare provision during her maternity leave. The where appropriate, to deliver work-related conditionality providers have said that if they provided everybody to lone parents and partners of certain benefit recipients with the appropriate childcare they could go bankrupt, so on behalf of the Secretary of State. The clause also they are not paying. I therefore support the idea provides that decisions made by such contractors will that the Government rather than a private company be treated as if they were made by the Secretary of should provide the service that they require. State. That will ensure that people required to participate in the new arrangements will have the normal rights of Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay: We on these appeal, even when decisions have been made by outside Benches share the suspicions, as the noble Baroness, providers. I am sure that all noble Lords who have Lady Meacher, put it so well, and the views of the spoken will be reassured by that. There is no intention other noble Baronesses who have spoken, about how to use external providers as a means of bypassing it will work in practice. We have considerable those rights. This will mean, for example, that a claimant reservations in principle on whether it is the right will be able to appeal a decision concerning attendance way for this service to go. If it is hived off or at a work-focused interview or work-related activities contracted out how will it be properly monitored and contained in an action plan, or a direction that is controlled? unreasonable or inappropriate. As with current contracting practice, if there is an appeal it would be referred to and dealt with by Jobcentre Plus. Lord McKenzie of Luton: This group of amendments allows us to debate the Government’s approach to I can assure noble Lords that this clause is not contracting with the public, private and voluntary about the privatisation of Jobcentre Plus. Jobcentre sectors to deliver welfare-to-work services on their Plus remains at the heart of our strategy to deal with behalf. As we set out in last year’s White Paper, the economic downturn, and, longer term, to ensure commissioning of this type is crucial to delivering the that everybody has the support they need to find outcomes we are looking for. In particular, it is important sustained work. It has been an important part of our to use the advantages that third sector organisations welfare-to-work activities since the start of New Deal can have in delivering support for the hardest-to-help in 1997, as evidenced by the extra resources that were and specialist groups. They can play a vital role in made available in the Budget of this year and the welfare provision. They are well placed to offer services Pre-Budget Report of last year to make sure it is able because of their local experience and knowledge of to play its full part in these programmes. External what their community needs, and their rapport with providers bring specialist knowledge, experience and their constituency groups. These organisations have skills. We wish to draw on their expertise wherever already demonstrated their ability to reach communities possible, but we want to do so in a fair and responsible cost-effectively and to gain local trust and credibility, way that will protect the right of individuals to appeal which the Government cannot. decisions. The noble Baroness, Lady Turner, talked about I turn first to Amendment 60, tabled by the noble comparative outcomes. It is not a case of one sector Lord, Lord Skelmersdale. This probes the extent of delivering better outcomes than the other, but about the functions that may be exercised by a contractor on ensuring that government and contracted providers behalf of the Secretary of State, and our intentions work in partnership to deliver the range of provision with respect to subcontracting. necessary to support our diverse customer groups. It is Functions to be exercised stop short of decisions the type of provision in place that matters, not who is about benefit entitlement or sanctions, which are always delivering it. Under our current arrangements the made by the Secretary of State. The Bill does not alter private sector delivers 32 per cent of the welfare-to-work our current practice on the use of subcontractors. It is contracts, the public sector 38 per cent, and the third for the department to include provision for subcontracting sector 30 per cent. I would say to the noble Baroness, in the prime contracts that it awards, with the consent Lady Afshar, that where communities are particularly of the Secretary of State. That is the route in to diverse, there is a clear case for local specialist knowledge subcontracting. GC 331 Welfare Reform Bill[18 JUNE 2009] Welfare Reform Bill GC 332

Under the principles of the department’s In normal circumstances, contracts may be terminated commissioning strategy, prime contractors are expected giving the agreed notice as stated in the contract. to ensure that DWP provision is joined up with local partnership arrangements. They are expected to work Baroness Thomas of Winchester: If a claimant wanted proactively with smaller, specialist providers and to complain about a contractor, would they go to subcontract to them, where appropriate. Also, to ensure Jobcentre Plus to do that? that the system operates effectively, the commissioning strategy includes a code of conduct, which spells out Lord McKenzie of Luton: I think that the answer is the key values and principles of behaviour for providers yes. There would be complaints procedures in the as well as the responsibilities of the prime contractors. contract that would have to be followed, including a It states that the development of smaller sub-contracted route to Jobcentre Plus. If I do not get anything more providers will be supported and encouraged by prime forthcoming from the Box on that, it might be helpful contractors, and that they should provide a level of if I write to the noble Baroness. extra support for new entrants into the market. All providers will be expected to operate in accordance with the code. That is our policy. Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay: On that point, will the Minister confirm that these contracts will be However, Amendment 60 would give a main available for public inspection, so we can see the break contractor the unrestricted power to subcontract. The clauses and the termination arrangements, and that Secretary of State would be relinquishing to a we will not be told that it is commercial and in contractor her authority to determine who carries out confidence? the relevant functions, and could lead to the department not knowing which contractor was Lord McKenzie of Luton: My immediate response performing these functions. I do not think that that is to that is that the noble Lord’s second proposition is the noble Lord’s intention, and I would therefore ask probably the one that runs; that is, that these would be him to withdraw the amendment. commercial contracts. Obviously, the outcomes would Amendment 61, again tabled by the noble Lord, be clear in a number of ways in terms of departmental Lord Skelmersdale, turns on the question of the statistics and more generally. I do not think that it relationship between the provisions of legislation and would be usual for contracts of this nature to be fully those in specific contracts. It also seeks reassurances within the public domain. Clearly, the process should about provisions which would appear, on the face of be clear and transparent and there should be proper it, to put contractors in an invidious position by accountability. denying them legal certainty about when a contract may be terminated. Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay: Trying to scrutinise Contractors are required to provide a minimum contracting-out arrangements of all sorts has been a level of support to all customers referred to them. The great problem in many ways, whether it is PFI/PPP or noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, was particularly concerned anything else. Even if the whole contract is not there, in that area. We do not specify the process for dealing will the notice period and the conditions under which with our different customer groups beyond a minimum the poor performance can be terminated earlier be necessary to ensure that they are preparing for work. made public? Presumably, there will be a standard However, as part of the contract management process, form for the tender process for letting these contracts. we do monitor quality of service and outcomes of our Given the significance for the monitoring and control customers. Providers are expected to use their skills, purposes about which other noble Lords have talked, knowledge and expertise to achieve positive outcomes surely there is no reason why that part of those contracts for all their customers. To ensure that this happens, the should not be publicly available. department has a formal contract management process, which is designed to ensure that contractors meet the Lord McKenzie of Luton: I see the thrust of the quality and delivery standards set out in the contract noble Lord’s point. I should like to reflect on that to specification for all those they deal with. In addition, see what would routinely be available through the external inspection—for example, by Ofsted or Estyn— contracting process. A certain amount would be available, and validation will ensure the quality and accuracy of although there is an extent to which some of the detail their activities if the provider also delivered training. would not. DWP contract managers also use a risk-based approach In normal circumstances, contracts may be terminated to target resources at those providers that are deemed given the agreed notice as stated in the contract. There as high risk, conducting more frequent face-to-face may be occasions where we need to terminate a contract reviews concentrating on performance and quality of immediately due to breach or serious breach. Examples provision. If a provider is not meeting the required of this would include unlawful discrimination, financial contractual performance this would be dealt with irregularity, non-compliance with health and safety through our existing contract management processes. legislation, or disclosure of confidential information. In the first instance, we would seek to agree a performance On that basis and with these reassurances, I hope that improvement plan with the contractor. If this does not the noble Lord will feel able not to move that amendment. work and performance fails to improve, we would Amendment 64 probes the nature of the relationship consider terminating the contract. In these cases we between the decision of a contractor and that of the may tie the improvement plan into the notice period Secretary of State. I have already mentioned the extent specified by the contract. of the functions which a contractor may perform on GC 333 Welfare Reform Bill[LORDS] Welfare Reform Bill GC 334

[LORD MCKENZIE OF LUTON] the noble Lord’s prescription, the Secretary of State behalf of the Secretary of State. New Section 2G(9) of would be at risk of having to contract out, which I the 1992 Act deals with decisions made on behalf of think would run contrary to what most noble Lords the Secretary of State by an “authorised person”. The who have expressed a view on the matter would want. amendment would mean that a contractor’s decision would be his own, but would have the same effect as Lord Skelmersdale: Have we wasted our time in the that of the Secretary of State. In practice, this amounts past three and three-quarter days? Surely the whole to the same thing and the amendment would have no point of this is that these operations are being contracted legal effect; although I take the point of the noble out—there is not scintilla of doubt about it—so why is Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, about the strange legal fiction the Minister so shy? whereby the decision of one person is, like transubstantiation, literally the same as the decision of another rather than taken as such. But I am advised Lord McKenzie of Luton: I am not being shy or coy. that our wording achieves the same result. We have made it clear that we will have pathfinders, Amendment 65 seeks clarification of a particularly undertaken by external providers, to test these obscure piece of text. I have every sympathy with the propositions, but we need to see where those pathfinders noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, in seeking clarification, take us and how they are evaluated. If we roll them which I am happy to give. The wording in question is, out across the country in due course, they may in some instances be undertaken by external providers. There “the authorised person is entitled to treat the contract as repudiated by the Secretary of State (and not as frustrated by reason of the is no compulsion or presumption that they will in all revocation)”. circumstances be undertaken by external providers. This means that where the Secretary of State ends a There has been nothing in what we have said which contract before it is due to end, a contractor could sue suggests that that is the case. her for damages for breach of the contract. The Secretary Amendment 153 would ensure that functions can of State would not be able to escape liability through be exercised concurrently by the Secretary of State provisions in the Bill which allow her to end the and by a contractor, but it would also create ambiguity contract in this way. So the construct would not be as to whether more than one entity, whether it is the frustrated, it would be treated as repudiated. Secretary of State or another person, can exercise a function that has been contracted out. More specifically, 5.15 pm it would raise a doubt as to whether functions that had been contracted out could be carried out by the Secretary Amendments 151 and 152 are related to Clause 25. of State or another person not mentioned in the They simply remove the words “if any”, which, as the authorisation given to the contractor. I do not think noble Lord observed in speaking to his amendments, that it is the noble Lord’s intention to create this legal is to probe our intentions. I make it clear that it is not uncertainty and therefore ask him not to pursue his the Government’s intention to provide in the Bill that amendment. certain functions of the Secretary of State must be contracted out. The main purpose of new Section Amendment 155 again involves particularly opaque 20E, as inserted by Clause 25, is to allow the Secretary drafting. The best approach is for me to explain the of State to authorise public, private and voluntary effect that we want the legislation to achieve. When sector contractors to undertake various functions relating referring customers to an external provider, we want to the progression-to-work provisions. to ensure that they are not disadvantaged in any way and continue to be treated in the same way as if they Conditionality in this respect for lone parents and were dealing with the department—I think that that is partners in particular will initially apply when they an aspiration that we would share. claim income support and subsequently apply once they are transferred to jobseeker’s allowance in the The Bill will help ensure that anything a customer modified version provided for by the Bill. The does in relation to a contractor is treated as if it were contracting-out provisions in the Bill simply extend done in relation to the Secretary of State. For example, existing arrangements in what I might call “mainstream” if a customer were required to provide information to JSA to those modified versions of income support a contractor, such as proof of completing work-related and JSA. activity, and did so, it could be treated as if the information was provided to the Secretary of State. Perhaps I may make a technical argument for a That is, believe it or not, to provide for legal certainty. moment. If Amendments 151 and 152 were accepted, Such provision is necessary to ensure that when customer there may be an implication in the legislation that deal with a contractor in relation to any contracted Parliament expected the Secretary of State to exercise out requirements, they do not have to determine what the powers to contract out the functions and was they need to do in relation to a contractor and the therefore subject to a duty to do so. department. When such customers deal with the contractor, they are also automatically dealing with Lord Skelmersdale: Parliament does expect, and the the Secretary of State. Government expect, that these functions will be contracted Amendment 155A attempts to remove the ability out, so I see no force in the Minister’s argument. for anything done or omitted to be done by a contractor or employee to be treated as if it were something done Lord McKenzie of Luton: There is a difference or omitted by an officer of the Secretary of State. In between “expects” in terms of “is required to” and most circumstances, roles ascribed in legislation to the “may”. We are simply providing flexibility.If we followed Secretary of State are in practice carried out by officers GC 335 Welfare Reform Bill[18 JUNE 2009] Welfare Reform Bill GC 336 of the department or, in the case of the amendment, The matter of frustration rather than repudiation is staff in Jobcentre Plus. However, there are circumstances extremely technical and perhaps I should have consulted in which roles are ascribed to officers of the Secretary a lawyer before attempting to put down an amendment of State. The wording used in this provision mirrors to that effect. However, the Minister has as usual the arrangement between a contractor and his employee explained the matter extremely well, and that is not the with that between the Secretary of State and an officer bit that I will have to read particularly carefully when I who acts on her behalf. It would ensure that the read Hansard tomorrow morning. individual will be in the same position whether a The Minister said that Amendment 60 would give contractor is used or not, as the case may be. the main contractor unrestricted power to use, access and employ subcontractors. I do not see anything The Countess of Mar: I am sorry to interrupt the wrong with that. Surely the Secretary of State is not Minister, but is he saying that if a Minister is brought the person to say whether the prime contractor can or to the Dispatch Box because there is a problem with should employ the services of a subcontractor in each the department outside the Civil Service—the problem particular case. Surely to goodness the main contractor, is with the contractor—that Minister is answerable for who decides that he has this range of difficulties in his the contractor? casebook, has the knowledge, and should have the power, to engage such subcontractors for such subset of these long-term unemployed people as are appropriate Lord McKenzie of Luton: I think that it would for his casebook. I find that rather difficult and will generally be the case that the Minister is responsible have to read that part of the Minister’s speech extremely for the activities of the department and would have to carefully. account for Parliament for its activities, including those of the contractor. That would run naturally. Lord McKenzie of Luton: I reiterate that we would To accept the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, not want to end up with a situation where we contract Lord Skelmersdale, would raise unnecessary ambiguity with a prime contractor without any knowledge, control about how customers will be treated and the safeguards or understanding of who he may subcontract with. by which they will be protected. I am conscious that The process by which the subcontracting can take this has been a somewhat lengthy response but it was place being part of the known and identified contract to a fairly large group of amendments, with some arrangements between the Secretary of State and the technicalities embedded within them. I hope that it prime contractor must be the right way to go. I am not satisfies the noble Lord and other noble Lords who sure that it was the intended effect of the noble Lord’s have spoken. amendment, but to draft it as he has would in a sense give the prime contractor, without control, the ability to subcontract. We would not want that. Lord Skelmersdale: The last thing that I would ever want to do would be to create more ambiguity than is already contained in the pages of the Bill—and by the Lord Skelmersdale: Clearly, the Secretary of State nods around the Table, I gather that various other and the department need to know what is going on, noble Lords agree with me on that. The Minister is but it is not for them to say that main contractor X quite right: this is a bad group, and I should probably should use the services of charity Y, Z or A in the never have agreed to it in the first place. However, in execution of that contract. It is for the Secretary of the interests of time, I hoped that it was an appropriate State to know that those subcontracts exist and that thing to do. the prime contractor believes that he needs to use them, but it is surely not for him to direct the contractor My comments particularly apply to Clause 25 stand to use a particular organisation to fulfil his contract. part. The fact that I was speaking to it did not necessarily mean that I disagree with it. I must disabuse the noble Baroness, Lady Turner, by saying that I certainly do Lord McKenzie of Luton: It may not be a question not agree 100 per cent with the views sent to us by the of direction, but I would have thought that, in any TUC and other union organisations. It will not surprise contract negotiations, if one is trying to ensure that her to hear that. She will not find that I put down a there is full coverage of the support that needs to be proposal in the next couple of weeks to leave out available, the Secretary of State, or officials working Clause 25 or, indeed, a numbered amendment on on her behalf, would want to be clear about precisely Report. That is not my intention. what arrangements are being put in place. To be clear, We are getting a little closer to what is going on if the Secretary of State’s authority is delegated, she with contracting out. I am grateful for the appearance must consent to the subcontract. That is the current of the noble Lord, Lord Oakeshott, in this Committee, arrangement and is absolutely right. The Secretary of as he knows much more about contract procedure State, in agreeing to arrangements with a prime contractor, than I do. The noble Countess, Lady Mar, is quite is entitled to, and should, know the full spread of right: the important thing is to ascertain who is answerable. expertise and support that is available. Surely we would From the answer that the Minister gave to her question not want it any other way. and from what he said earlier, I appreciate that in all cases, even if an activity is contracted out, the Secretary Lord Skelmersdale: That is the point that I was of State is in control and therefore has to defend the making. I was saying that of course the Secretary of actions of the contractor or the sub-contractor. That State needs knowledge thereof, but the prime contractor is absolutely the right thing to do. has the caseload. Caseloads are going to differ, for GC 337 Welfare Reform Bill[LORDS] Welfare Reform Bill GC 338

[LORD SKELMERSDALE] Lord Skelmersdale: That has very little to do with example by geographical area—perhaps a rural area what I was saying, which was about a relationship as opposed to a municipal one—and the Secretary of between the two sets of advisers, but, never mind. It is State would not necessarily know what is in that quite clear that a letter is required. On that basis, I beg particular casebook. It would be for the contractor to leave to withdraw the amendment. break up the casebook, and say that, “For this group of people, I will need such and such; and for another Amendment 60 withdrawn. group of people I will need a different type of subcontractor altogether”. Amendments 61 and 62 not moved. Lord McKenzie of Luton: I am not sure that we are very far apart on this. We are seeking to achieve the Amendment 63 right position: when the contract with the prime contractor Moved by Lord Skelmersdale is finally entered into, the Secretary of State would want to know the full range of provision that is 63: Clause 2, page 8, line 30, leave out “criminal” and insert available to that prime contractor. Therefore, in a “court” sense, the Secretary of State consents to knowing who is going to provide that full range of services. That can Lord Skelmersdale: This is a simple probing be distinguished from a situation where the prime amendment. On the previous amendment my argument contractor may have a contractual obligation to have rested in part on new subsection (7), which I suggested full coverage, but who they are going to use in any says that any decisions surrounding these functions individual case is left open when the contact is entered are construed to be decisions made by the Secretary of into. That is not the right approach. State. However, new subsection (8), to which the amendment refers, contains exclusions; anything done 5.30 pm or omitted does not apply to so much of the contract as relates to the exercise of functions. In other words, Lord Skelmersdale: It is one thing to have the that is a matter for the contractor and the contractor availability; it is a totally different thing to have to alone, and that is fair enough. It is also fair enough need to use it in particular cases. I was trying to that any court proceedings brought as a result of illustrate that. This is an extremely complicated subject. anything done by the contractor, his employee, his However, one thing that is fundamental to all this is subcontractor or whatever, which I assume includes the position of the long-term unemployed individual. subcontractors, are to be against the contractor rather I spoke of my personal confusion about who is the than the Secretary of State. But subsection (8) of new personal adviser in any particular case. There is no Section 2G does not appear to say that. It seems to me argument that the operation starts within Jobcentre to say that “criminal proceedings” are for the contractor Plus and that there is a personal adviser who, up to alone. Where does that leave proceedings for civil now, has been—from memory—a job adviser. That action? Does not this lacuna mean that they are to be job is contracted out and somebody else from the the province of the Secretary of State? Two questions prime contractor looks on a day-to-day basis after the therefore arise. First, is my interpretation correct? long-term unemployed individual. I hope I have that right. Secondly, why does it refer only to criminal proceedings The job adviser and Jobcentre Plus must presumably and not all court proceedings—perhaps tort proceedings maintain some measure of control in all this. Therefore, for negligence, breaches of contract or administrative it is very important that we understand the relationship law, for example. I beg to move. between the private sector adviser and the Jobcentre Plus adviser because both people will be in existence at Lord McKenzie of Luton: New Section 2G would the same time in relation to the long-term unemployed allow contracted organisations, where appropriate, to individual and they will have to talk to each other if deliver work-related conditionality to lone parents only because the jobcentre adviser is the person giving and partners of certain benefit recipients by allowing directions, dealing with sanctions and so on, on the some of the conditionality functions conferred on the advice of the contractor’s adviser. I am sorry to make Secretary of State to be carried out by providers. this complicated. I have not written it out in quite such Under the Bill, relevant claimants affected by these detail as I might have done, but those were the sort of arrangements will always have an effective remedy questions that I was asking in this group of amendments. against the Secretary of State for anything a contractor I suspect that it would help us all if the Minister does on her behalf, except where the action follows were to write us a letter on exactly how this relationship some criminal activity on the part of the contractor. is going to work, unless of course he wants to do the This provides clarity and simplicity for the individual, operation verbally now. who is protected because he knows that he can always sue the Secretary of State on any civil matter. The Baroness Afshar: Send a letter. Secretary of State can decide for herself whether she in turn wishes to sue the contractor for any breaches. Lord McKenzie of Luton: There seems to be an This amendment would draw the line in a different appetite for a letter. I would just say that we are not place, such that the contractor would be directly liable necessarily or particularly dealing with long term here; in all cases subject to court proceedings, including this is progression to work and that does not necessarily matters of a civil nature. It would mean, for example, mean the long-term unemployed. that where a claimant wanted to make a claim for GC 339 Welfare Reform Bill[18 JUNE 2009] Welfare Reform Bill GC 340 negligence they could sue a contractor in civil proceedings respect for private life. Any training and guidance should be at court instead of taking action against the Secretary prepared in consultation with disabled people and service user of State by virtue of new Section 2G(7). groups”. The provisions in the Bill reflect what we have done The Grand Committee has echoed this afternoon in all our other contracting provisions. Such arrangements what the JCHR said. Before the next stage of the Bill, are preferable because they give greater certainty and and after studying the Minister’s responses, we shall clarity to both client and contractor. The contractor is have to consider which issues to revisit. responsible for any criminal issues while the Secretary of State takes responsibility for civil matters. I hope that that has clarified things for the noble Lord. Lord McKenzie of Luton: The surest and most sustainable way to address child poverty is to support more parents into work, which pays and allows them Lord Skelmersdale: I have made this point before: to manage the careful balance between employment the fact that the department has always done this does and family life. For that goal to be met, we want to not necessarily mean that it remains right. When did ensure that preparation for work becomes a natural contracting rights start in the department? Was it 20 progression rather than a sudden step up. or 30 years ago? I think that it was something like that. The clause allows us to invent this natural progression by introducing a progression-to-work group, as Lord McKenzie of Luton: It was before my time. recommended by Paul Gregg in his independent report, Realising Potential: A Vision for Personalised Conditionality Lord Skelmersdale: It was before mine too, I can and Support. The report recommends that the parents assure the noble Lord. I do not apologise for raising and partners of certain benefit recipients with younger this matter. I am not yet persuaded that I am wrong. I children within the group undertake mandatory action cannot see that if the contractor commits a civil planning and work-related activities that are flexible misdemeanour, he should not be liable at court. I will and personally tailored to their needs and circumstances look very carefully at what the Minister has said and to prepare them for work. perhaps come back to it, but I suspect not. I beg leave I stress up front that we are not forcing anyone into to withdraw the amendment. work, apart from rare instances of non-co-operation where there may be the need of a direction to push Amendment 63 withdrawn. people to do things they do not want to do. I say again, it is about preparing parents for work to avoid Amendments 64 to 66 not moved. that sudden step up when their youngest child reaches seven and they have to make themselves available for Debate on whether Clause 2 should stand part of the work and actively seek work. Bill. New Section 2D allows the Secretary of State to make regulations that may require a person in receipt Baroness Thomas of Winchester: Before we leave of income support or the partner of a person receiving Clause 2, it is worth taking this last chance in Committee income support, income-based jobseeker’s allowance to reiterate some of the concerns which have been or income-related employment and support allowance, expressed about this clause. They boil down perhaps to undertake work-related activity as part of their to claimants in the progression-to-work route being progression to work. New Section 2E provides for given the appropriate work-related activity for their action plans for persons in receipt of certain benefits circumstances, to sanctions being a last resort for this and to the partners of such people who are required to group and for the training of Jobcentre Plus staff to be attend a word-focused interview under the provisions such that we can all be confident in their ability to of new Sections 2A and 2AA of the Social Security interact with claimants with multiple barriers to work. Contributions and Benefits Act. The benefits in question It may be worth noting that the Joint Committee on are income support, income-based jobseeker’s allowance Human Rights was concerned that there was some or income-related employment and support allowance. evidence that certain vulnerable groups, in particular Regulations made under this section will provide details those with mental health problems or learning disabilities, in relation to the form, content, review and updating were disadvantaged already by the administration of of action plans. the reforms introduced by the previous Welfare Reform When a person is required under the provisions of Act 2007, and that the Government had not said how Section 2D to undertake work-related activity, the they intended to monitor the effectiveness of existing action plan will contain details of the activities that safeguards. Perhaps we will have to decide whether the will allow that requirement to be met. The regulations Minister’s replies to this part of the Bill have been will also allow the person provided with an action plan satisfactory. to ask for it to be reconsidered; they will set out the The JCHR specifically recommended that the training circumstances and time in which such a request may and guidance that a person advises should expressly be made and the matters to be considered when deciding address how to identify and engage with people with on reconsideration, notification of the reconsideration mental health problems and learning disabilities. It and directions giving effect to the decision on said: reconsideration. New Section 2F allows the Secretary “The training and guidance should encourage staff to engage of State to direct those groups detailed under new proactively with supporters, family and other professionals where Section 2D to undertake specific work-related activities necessary, appropriate and consistent with the claimant’s right to detailed in the action plan. GC 341 Welfare Reform Bill[LORDS] Welfare Reform Bill GC 342

[LORD MCKENZIE OF LUTON] Baroness Hollis of Heigham: There is some difficulty. However, such a direction must be reasonable—this I do not know what time the Committee is proposing touches on the point about vulnerable people with to finish. If it is proposing to finish at 6 pm, I am stuck mental health and learning disabilities—and have regard because I have Amendments 71 and 72—I shall not to the person’s circumstances. The specific activity move Amendment 73—which are connected, but I do identified should be one that helps the individual to not want them grouped. Since we have taken so long prepare for entry. Section 2G provides the Secretary of over some previous amendments, I shall not be able to State to authorise certain functions in relation to complete those two amendments by 6 pm, so I do not work-focused interviews, action plans and directions know what is the best thing to do in these circumstances. to be contracted out to external providers. Parental I do not wish to trespass on the Committee and say employment is the single biggest determinant of family that we should continue to complete them; alternatively, income, and children in out-of-work families are at we could start on them on the next day in Committee. high risk of poverty. Living in a household where no adult is working puts a child at a 61 per cent risk of Lord McKenzie of Luton: Is it possible under the poverty. That is much higher than the 30 per cent risk rules for the noble Baroness simply to retable the of poverty for children in households where at least amendments so that we can pick them up on another one but not all adults are in work and an 8 per cent occasion? risk of poverty for children in households where all adults are in work. Therefore, ensuring that parents are given the help and support they need to prepare Baroness Hollis of Heigham: I would not wish to for work when it is appropriate for them will have a retable them on Report. major impact on them and their children. Lord McKenzie of Luton: No, no. Clause 2 agreed. Baroness Hollis of Heigham: We could simply have 5.45 pm them as the first item on the next day’s business. They change the topic to financial issues, which require Amendments 67 to 70 withdrawn. some careful discussion, and many Members may wish to be involved. I do not see how we can do that in Amendment 71 10 minutes. I apologise to the Committee. It is not a situation I would wish for. Tabled by Baroness Hollis of Heigham 71: After Clause 2, insert the following new Clause— Baroness Crawley: This may be a convenient moment “Work-related activity: additional premiums for the Committee to adjourn until Monday at 3.30 pm. (1) The Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992 (c. 4) is amended as follows. The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Colwyn): (2) In section 135, (the applicable amount) after subsection (6) insert— The Committee stands adjourned until Monday at 3.30 pm. “(7) The applicable amount shall include an amount in respect of a work-related activity component if the claimant undertakes work-related activity as defined in section 2D(8)(c) of this Act.”.” Committee adjourned at 5.47 pm. WS 73 Written Statements[18 JUNE 2009] Written Statements WS 74 Written Statements Asset Freezing Statement Thursday 18 June 2009 The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury Armed Forces: Recruitment (Lord Myners): My honourable friend the Economic Statement Secretary to the Treasury (Ian Pearson) has today made the following Written Ministerial Statement. The Minister for International Defence and Security The Foreign Secretary has previously provided figures (Baroness Taylor of Bolton): My honourable friend the for the total frozen assets in the UK under the sanctions Minister of State for the Armed Forces (Bill Rammell) against Burma and Zimbabwe. An aggregate figure for has made the following Written Ministerial Statement. frozen assets is given in relation to a sanctions regime Today I welcome publication of the first report by in order to ensure that principles of data protection Ofsted on the quality of welfare and duty of care for and confidentiality are observed and the amount relating recruits and trainees in the Armed Forces. Following to any one individual or entity is not identifiable. up on the work previously undertaken by the Adult Total assets frozen in the UK under the sanctions Learning Inspectorate, Ofsted has been engaged in against Iran inspecting the recruit journey from Armed Forces recruitment and careers offices through the selection The total assets frozen in the UK under the EU process and into training. and UN sanctions against Iran are approximately Having implemented a number of policy and process £976,110,000. This figure is the total reported frozen changes designed to improve the training environment assets at the time sanctions were imposed and has and the support provided to individuals and reduce been converted to sterling from the currencies in which the risk to recruits and trainees, the Armed Forces are it was reported using the appropriate exchange rate for committed to a programme of continuous improvement the day on which it was reported. which is supported by external inspection. This report, the first by Ofsted, draws on the evidence gathered by Courts Fees inspectors over a 15-month period of visits. It includes Statement judgments on the provision of welfare and duty of care; on the capacity to improve; and on how well the Armed Forces are undertaking self-assessment activity. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry Self-assessment is a relatively new concept for much of of Justice (Lord Bach): My honourable friend the the Armed Forces and, while the majority of units Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State (Bridget Prentice) visited are progressing well, there remains more work has made the following Written Ministerial Statement. to be done. I am today announcing the outcome of the recent I am pleased that Ofsted concludes the overall consultation on civil court fees. effectiveness of the welfare and duty-of-care provision The consultation paper published on 10 December for recruits and trainees is satisfactory. The report is 2008 proposed a package of fee increases designed to largely positive and shows progress on a wide range of raise an additional £38 million a year in fee income. issues. Nevertheless, it is clear that there is further The consultation closed on 4 March 2009. Fifty-two room for development in a number of areas in terms responses were received from law professionals, local of the pace of improvement and the application of authorities, the judiciary, individuals and other stakeholder consistent practice. We should not be surprised that bodies. the pressures of conducting challenging and sustained After careful consideration of these, my right operations at a level of intensity and commitment we honourable friend the Lord Chancellor and Secretary have not experienced for some time are manifest in of State has decided to proceed with the increases, some of our training establishments. We are not subject to a number of adjustments to reflect particular complacent however and remain committed to continuing points raised by respondents. to improve the way in which our recruits are trained. These changes to the charging regime in the civil The initial training environment is dynamic and courts are to be introduced in order to target taxpayers’ we must be sure that the impact of change is fully money more effectively while continuing to help those understood, which is why we will continue to place in financial difficulty. emphasis on self-assessment. Ofsted makes a number They are being introduced so that fees reflect the of recommendations which, together with the findings true cost of the work done by the courts—currently from internal audit work, will feed into the overall subsidised by the taxpayer and fee-payers in other continuous improvement programme. types of cases. I have today placed copies of the report, The quality This is in the best interests of people on low incomes of welfare and duty of care for recruits and trainees in and of taxpayers. Those who cannot afford to pay a the Armed Forces, in the Library of the House. court fee deserve the taxpayer’s help. But court fees External inspection provides the Armed Forces with need to reflect the true cost of court proceedings. the opportunity to consider good practice from outside Together with a system that waives or reduces fees for of the Ministry of Defence and I am grateful to the those who cannot afford them, that is the right balance Chief Inspector Ofsted for this report and the contribution to ensure fair access to justice, fairness to the taxpayer it makes to ensure the care and welfare of recruits and and proper funding of courts’ running costs now and trainees in the Armed Forces continue to improve. in the future. WS 75 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 76

There are changes to 30 types of civil court fee, out all county courts now display posters giving details of the 200-plus fees in operation. Most of the changes of free advice providers; relate to applications to enforce judgments that have an advice desk in each of the 154 courts that already been made in debt claims between private account for the majority of possession claims; parties, and which are recoverable from defaulters who can but will not pay their debts. HM Courts Service’s online possession claim system now includes details for all defendants on For example, the fee for sending a bailiff visit to where they can find local financial advice; collect a debt or seize the debtor’s goods to pay it rises a housing arrears pre-action scheme, currently at to £100 (currently there are two fees of £35 and £55). pilot stage, involves courts inviting tenants with The creditor pays the fee but it is then automatically rent arrears to meet with local advice providers at added to the debt. the court before a claim is issued; and Fees are waived automatically for people on means- the judiciary issued guidance in November 2008 on tested benefits (such as income support) or on low ensuring that lenders demonstrate they have taken incomes (eg £13,000 for a single person with no children all the steps expected to resolve mortgage arrears and £29,720 for a couple with four children). before they take the matter to court. People who do not meet either of those criteria can If taken to court, defendants can complete an still apply to the court for a full or partial fee waiver admission form and make a proposal for payment; if based on an assessment of their disposable income (ie the claimant refuses to accept the proposal, the court taking account of rent and other key household will then step in and make an assessment for repayment expenditure). based on the debtor’s income and expenditure. If The scheme granted £23 million in full or part ultimately enforcement action is required, it is right waivers in over 160,000 civil or family court cases in that debtors who can, but will not, pay face the full the year to October 2008 alone. cost of their decision to let things get that far. The civil and family courts are principally concerned Equally, creditors should be discouraged from taking with resolving private disputes between individuals or enforcement measures against vulnerable debtors who companies. These are not criminal cases. The Government genuinely cannot afford to pay. Charging the true full do not believe that it is right for the taxpayer at large cost for enforcement processes (for example, warrants to continue to provide a general untargeted subsidy or charging orders) will encourage creditors to consider for resolution of these disputes in courts. more carefully whether they are throwing good money after bad. These fee changes are therefore a further However, there currently remains a large general measure to help those in financial difficulties by subsidy from the taxpayer in some areas of court discouraging inappropriate or premature enforcement business, from which all court users in those areas process against them. benefit regardless of their ability to pay. For example, magistrates’ court civil fees currently cover only 55 per In light of the responses to consultation, my right cent of the cost of doing the work. The changes made honourable friend has decided to make a number of will mean that fees in this area of business will in changes to the proposals on which we consulted. The future reflect the full cost. details of all these are set out in the two Explanatory Memoranda accompanying the statutory instruments. At the moment, fees for enforcement processes do There are two main changes. not reflect the full cost of those processes. This means that they are effectively subsidised by the fees paid in First, the Lord Chancellor has decided not to align cases where enforcement is not required. This is unfair the fee payable for a detailed assessment of costs in a on the creditors and debtors in those cases. It is legally aided case with the banded fees payable in therefore right, particularly in the current economic private cases. Respondents argued that this was climate, that enforcement fees should be set to reflect inappropriate because legal aid assessments were simpler the true cost. and significantly less time-consuming for the courts than other assessments. While we are keen to ensure that those who can but will not pay are pursued effectively through the courts, Secondly, we have listened to concerns expressed we are keen to help people with debt problems to avoid about the proposal to replace the three existing fees court in the first place, especially in the current economic payable in general civil proceedings in magistrates’ climate. courts by a single up-front fee. Responses suggested that a significant proportion of these cases never The legal process provides ample opportunity, both required a contested hearing, and should not have to before and during court proceedings, for debtors to pay a fee that reflected the costs incurred by those that come to payment agreements with those to whom they did. We are therefore introducing a two-stage structure, owe money. The Government have introduced a number with a single application fee equal to the existing three of initiatives to encourage and facilitate this, and in fees, and a second fee payable only once there is a particular to ensure that debtors receive timely information contested hearing. about the availability of free debt and legal advice. Three statutory instruments containing the new These include: civil, family, magistrates’ court fees were laid before a new requirement, introduced this April, that any Parliament today and will come into effect on 13 July business wanting to take an individual debtor to 2009. A report summarising the responses to the court must first write to them, including details consultation paper in more detail is also being published about how to find free debt advice; today. WS 77 Written Statements[18 JUNE 2009] Written Statements WS 78

Diplomatic Immunity: Serious Offences Theft & Robbery (of Motor Vehicle, Driving without Statement Insurance) South Africa 1

2006 The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Attempted Robbery Office (Lord Malloch-Brown): My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and South Africa 1 Deception (Going Equipped to Commonwealth Affairs (David Miliband) has made Commit) the following Written Ministerial Statement. Nigeria 1 In 2008, 10 serious offences allegedly committed Driving under the Influence of by people entitled to diplomatic immunity were drawn Alcohol to the attention of the Foreign and Commonwealth Kazakhstan 2 Office. Serious offences are defined as offences that Belarus 1 would, in certain circumstances, carry a penalty of Côte d’Ivoire 1 12 months or more imprisonment. Some 25,000 people Kuwait 1 are entitled to diplomatic immunity in the United Malawi 1 Kingdom. Oman 1 The table below lists those foreign missions whose Saudi Arabia 1 diplomats allegedly committed serious offences and South Africa 1 the type of offence from 2004-08. Driving without Insurance Pakistan 1 2004 Failure to Stop for Police/ Arranging Sham Marriages Driving without Insurance & Licence Nigeria 1 Kazakhstan 1 Driving under the Influence of Alcohol Robbery Angola 1 South Africa 1 Austria 1 Theft (Obtaining Property by Luxembourg 1 Deception) Mozambique 1 Ghana 1 Serbia & Montenegro 1 2007 Spain 1 Dangerous Driving Indecent Assault Russia 1 Congo 1 Domestic Assault/Actual Bodily Saudi Arabia 1 Harm Indecent Assault on Child South Africa 1 Saudi Arabia 1 Driving without insurance Robbery & Assault Ghana 1 Angola 1 Driving without insurance and driving under the influence of 2005 alcohol Actual Bodily Harm Malawi 2 Jordan 1 Driving under the influence of alcohol Assault (Domestic Violence) Belarus 1 Saudi Arabia 1 Georgia 1 Dangerous Driving Hungary 1 Turkey 1 Israel 1 Driving under the Influence of Italy 1 Alcohol Other* 1 Angola 1 Kazakhstan 1 Egypt 1 Kuwait 1 Ghana 1 Moldova 1 Lebanon 1 Nigeria 1 Peru 1 Peru 1 Russia 1 Saudi Arabia 1 Saudi Arabia 1 Turkmenistan 1 Harassment Misrepresentation (obtaining Turkey 1 insurance by deception) Theft (Shoplifting) Cote d’Ivoire 1 Egypt 1 Robbery and Actual Bodily Equatorial Guinea 1 Harm Zambia 1 Guyana 1 WS 79 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 80

2008 Country Number of fines Total outstanding (£)

Driving under the influence of Algeria 4,393 466,760 alcohol Sierra Leone 4,295 444,380 Cameroon 1 Bulgaria 3,002 327,940 Kyrgyzstan 1 Kazakhstan 2,710 307,040 Morocco 1 Korea 2,611 303,000 Mozambique 1 Hungary 2,666 297,100 *Other 1 Slovakia 2,556 286,140 Saudi Arabia 1 Yemen 2,515 279,000 Thailand 1 Belarus 2,454 273,720 Uganda 1 Zambia 2,526 272,660 Vietnam 1 Zimbabwe 2,534 259,400 Theft (Shoplifting) Cameroon 2,348 252,140 Cameroon 1 Cyprus 2,110 238,780 * Details have been withheld because the number of diplomatic Ethiopia 2,217 235,320 personnel in the mission(s) concerned is/are so small that Namibia 1,944 202,680 disclosure would lead to the identification of the individual Swaziland 1,947 201,860 concerned. This would breach the data protection rights of that individual, in particular, the first data protection principle, Mauritius 1,838 200,760 namely, that personal data should be processed fairly. This is Czech Republic 1,700 187,580 because the offences are only alleged to have been committed and Equatorial Guinea 1,731 186,720 have not been proven in a court of law. In these circumstances, Pakistan 1,490 175,250 Section 40(2) and (3) of the Freedom of Information Act confer Mozambique 1,610 171,180 an absolute exemption on disclosure of this information. Lesotho 1,545 163,280 Austria 1,338 151,160 Belgium 1,268 143,360 Diplomatic Missions and International Egypt 1,442 137,400 Organisations: Unpaid Congestion Charge Cote d’Ivoire 1,309 134,680 and Fines Malawi 1,237 128,780 Statement Vietnam 1,161 125,780 Malta 1,103 122,580 Guinea 1,186 121,180 Botswana 1,076 118,380 The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Denmark 1,002 115,220 Office (Lord Malloch-Brown): My right honourable Jamaica 1,017 111,620 friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Uganda 1,023 110,780 Commonwealth Affairs (David Miliband) has made Saudi Arabia 1,029 103,430 the following Written Ministerial Statement. DPK Korea 981 101,700 The number of outstanding fines incurred by the diplomatic missions in the United Kingdom for non- payment of the London congestion charge since its introduction in February 2003 until 18 February 2009 was £26,721,464. The table below shows the 53 diplomatic missions with outstanding fines totalling £100,000 or Diplomatic Missions and International more. Organisations: Unpaid Traffic Fines Statement Country Number of fines Total outstanding (£)

USA 27,368 2,960,760 Russia 20,327 2,269,440 Japan 19,007 2,090,880 Germany 17,370 1,929,490 The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Malloch-Brown): My right honourable Nigeria 14,270 1,520,170 friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Sudan 9,750 1,016,920 Commonwealth Affairs (David Miliband) has made India 7,061 801,940 the following Written Ministerial Statement. Poland 6,222 699,000 Kenya 6,429 673,990 In 2008, there were 4,257 recorded outstanding Ghana 5,664 631,040 parking and other minor traffic violation fines incurred Tanzania 5,764 602,320 by diplomatic missions and international organisations France 5,397 593,620 in the United Kingdom. These totalled £448,580. In Spain 5,098 578,360 March this year, the Foreign and Commonwealth Greece 4,931 556,260 Office wrote to all diplomatic missions and international Ukraine 4,904 549,840 organisations concerned, giving them the opportunity to either pay their outstanding fines or appeal against South Africa 5,053 527,800 them if they considered that the fines had been issued Romania 4,659 520,960 incorrectly. As a result of subsequent payments totalling WS 81 Written Statements[18 JUNE 2009] Written Statements WS 82

£18,620 and formal appeals lodged, there remains a Number of total of 4,021 (£429,960) unpaid fines for 2008. The Diplomatic Mission/ Outstanding Fines table below details those diplomatic missions and International (excluding international organisations that have outstanding fines Organisation congestion charge) Amount in £ totalling £1,000 or more. Mexico 11 £1,220 Equatorial Guinea 7 £1,105 Number of Ethiopia 11 £1,080 Diplomatic Mission/ Outstanding Fines International (excluding Jamaica 10 £1,080 Organisation congestion charge) Amount in £ Swaziland 9 £1,000 Spain 8 £1,000 Kazakhstan 528 £58,400 Total 3,842 £404,240 Sudan 280 £29,680 Afghanistan 253 £27,460 Saudi Arabia 288 £26,960 United Arab Emirates 213 £22,440 Diplomatic Missions: Unpaid Non- China 164 £18,300 Domestic Rates Cyprus 163 £17,860 Statement France 154 £16,520 Turkey 125 £13,560 Nigeria 102 £12,880 Pakistan 110 £12,000 The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Romania 108 £11,290 Office (Lord Malloch-Brown): My right honourable Russia 85 £8,825 friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Egypt 75 £8,020 Commonwealth Affairs (David Miliband) has made Guinea 66 £6,700 the following Written Ministerial Statement. Ukraine 56 £6,260 The majority of diplomatic missions in the United North Korea 78 £6,080 Kingdom pay the national non-domestic rates requested Albania 55 £5,560 from them. They are obliged to pay only 6 per cent of Jordan 53 £5,240 the total national non-domestic rates value which Uzbekistan 49 £4,900 represents payment for specific services such as street Georgia 47 £4,780 cleaning, lighting, maintenance and fire services. The Mozambique 45 £4,500 total amount outstanding from all diplomatic missions Malaysia 40 £4,440 is approximately £634,205. As at 6 May 2009, missions Greece 39 £4,360 listed below owed over £10,000 in respect of NNDR. Iran 35 £3,700 Since a letter about outstanding NNDR bills was Tunisia 34 £3,500 sent to missions on 25 March, £154,402 has been Zambia 46 £3,380 repaid. Many missions have cleared their bills and Bulgaria 26 £2,840 some others have entered into arrangements to pay by Libya 43 £2,760 instalments. DR Congo 35 £2,640 Iraq 24 £2,460 Country Amount Benin 27 £2,460 Zimbabwe £79,883.28 Algeria 19 £2,100 Bangladesh £77,127.64 Cote d’Ivoire 21 £2,300 Cote d’Ivoire £72,095.74 Kuwait 19 £2,160 Cameroon £55,200.38 Mauritius 18 £2,020 Tunisia £22,648.39 Ghana 18 £1,980 Ukraine £22,178.20 Germany 18 £1,940 Equatorial Guinea £12,290.37 Bangladesh 16 £1,920 Iraq £12,537.13 Kenya 16 £1,760 Total £353,961.13 Liberia 16 £1,620 Lithuania 15 £1,640 Botswana 14 £1,520 Bahrain 14 £1,520 ECOFIN Hungary 14 £1,480 Statement Angola 14 £1,620 Thailand 13 £1,480 Azerbaijan 13 £1,420 The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury Mongolia 13 £1,460 (Lord Myners): My right honourable friend the Chancellor Luxembourg 14 £1,420 of the Exchequer (Alistair Darling) has today made Vietnam 13 £1,320 the following Written Ministerial Statement. Italy 17 £1,380 Morocco 13 £1,380 The Economic and Financial Affairs Council was held in Luxembourg on 9 June 2009. The following Syria 12 £1,280 items were discussed: WS 83 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 84

Economic and Financial Development a useful insight into the actions taken by member Update on current situation states to support the financial sector. The council has asked the Economic and Financial Committee to further The council took stock of the current economic examine requirements for bank restructuring in return and financial situation, based on an update from the for state support and the pricing of state guarantees, Commission and the ECB. Ministers were also informed and to report back to the council in July. by the Commission of its intentions regarding budgetary surveillance procedures in the light of the latest fiscal International financing of climate change notifications by the member states. The Government ECOFIN adopted council conclusions to inform believe that continued communication between member discussions by heads in June, in preparation of the states is key to ensuring a co-ordinated response to the December Copenhagen conference on climate change. crisis. The UK supports the council conclusions, which International accounting standards demonstrate the EU’s commitment to tackling this issue ahead of the finalisation of the EU negotiation The council held an exchange of views with regarding finance mechanisms, which is expected in representatives from the International Accounting October. Standards Board (IASB) regarding international standards Taxation used for the valuation of financial instruments. Ministers reiterated calls made at the informal ECOFIN in April Good governance in tax for standard setters to work urgently to achieve clarity Based on the Commission’s 28 April communication, and consistency in the application of standards used ECOFIN adopted council conclusions on further work for the valuation of assets in distressed and inactive relating to good governance in taxation. The conclusions markets. The Government welcome further actions encourage further work in relation to legislative proposals announced by the IASB on 29 May, which demonstrate on the savings taxation directive, the administrative their commitment to respond to questions raised by co-operation directive and the recovery directive, and the Commission and member states, and look forward urge the Commission to swiftly present the results of to the EU advancing this work in the context of the negotiations on an anti-fraud agreement with G20 call to improve standards for valuation of financial Liechtenstein. The UK is content with the conclusions, instruments. which represent a positive step forward on the three Preparation of the June European Council 18 and individual directives and on the wider good governance 19 June 2009 agenda, with its close links to the G20. The incoming Swedish presidency will report to the council in autumn European supervisory framework on progress made. Ministers adopted council conclusions on financial supervision and regulation to prepare the discussion at European Council. This follows the European EU: Transport Council Commission’s response to the Larosière report. The Statement Government are content with the final conclusions, which reflect the concerns expressed by the UK. The conclusions incorporate strong safeguards at the The Secretary of State for Transport (Lord Adonis): Government’s request, including the commitment that My right honourable friend the Minister of State for any new powers granted to existing or proposed bodies Transport (Sadiq Khan) has made the following would not impinge in any way on member states’ fiscal Ministerial Statement. responsibilities. I attended the second Transport Council of the Following the discussion at European Council, the Czech presidency in Luxembourg on 11 June. Commission will present all necessary proposals by The council adopted a decision, which the UK early autumn 2009 at the latest, with the aim of having supported, authorising the Commission to open the new European financial supervision system, negotiations with Georgia on a comprehensive air comprising both macro-prudential and micro-prudential transport agreement. components, fully in place in the course of 2010. Under AOB, the Commission presented its recent Implementation of the European economic recovery proposal for a directive on aviation security charges, plan which aims to ensure transparency, non-discrimination and consultation of airlines when fixing the level of The council endorsed a report to the June European security charges and to ensure that charges are cost-related. Council reviewing progress made on the European I called for the directive to match the airport charges economic recovery plan (EERP). The UK is broadly directive as closely as possible. I also emphasised that content with the final document, which is a horizontal there should be no restriction on member states ability view of the structural and fiscal measures taken by to impose more stringent measures swiftly when the member states following from the EERP. situation demands it, and that the proposal should Bank reform schemes take into account the principles of subsidiarity and Following on from an interim oral report given to proportionality. Ministers at the informal ECOFIN in April, Ministers The council reached a political agreement on a agreed a report on the effectiveness of support schemes proposal for a regulation concerning a European rail undertaken to ensure financial stability, including reporting network for competitive freight. This draft regulation of the UK’s own asset protection scheme and other seeks to improve the efficiency and competitiveness of measures. The Government believe the report provides international rail freight in Europe. I joined several WS 85 Written Statements[18 JUNE 2009] Written Statements WS 86 other Ministers in expressing the view that the text put In the light of further public research, we have to the council struck the right balance in terms of prepared a communications programme to support passenger transport and the designation of rail corridors. the delivery of key messages to patients, public, the Some minor changes were made to address remaining NHS and other stakeholders. Summary copies of the concerns of some member states and the political research have today been placed in the Library, are agreement was reached. available to honourable Members from the Vote Under AOB, the Commission reported on the current Office and can be found at www.dh.gov.uk/en/ position regarding liberalisation of rail transport in Publicationsandstatistics/Publications/ the EU. The UK supported the Commission in its call PublicationsPolicyAndGuidance/DH_083815. for all member states to ensure that the provisions on This programme represents the first step in improving liberalisation set out in the First Railway Package are awareness and understanding of the roles of pharmacy properly and comprehensively transposed. in providing services. This is an important but necessary There was a progress report and policy debate on a prelude to expanding the range of clinical services we proposal for a regulation on the rights of passengers want to see available as outlined in the White Paper. in bus and coach transport. The proposal aims to We have identified key target audiences for this make bus and coach travel more attractive and accessible programme with a particular focus on people with to all passengers, including disabled people and people long-term conditions and those affected by health with reduced mobility, and to create a level playing inequalities. The next phase will turn this information field across Europe, both between operators and different into a campaign plan. We will work with key pharmacy modes of transport. In the debate, Ministers were stakeholders to develop this campaign plan. It will be invited to comment on options for the scope of the supported by further research this summer among the draft regulation, I stressed that the proposed exemption pharmacist profession to identify their preparedness for urban, suburban and regional transport operated and ability to deliver the range and quality of services under public service contracts that provide a comparable that patients and public should expect in future. level of passenger rights was discriminatory in respect of those member states, such as the UK, whose markets We consulted on a number of structural and legislative have moved to open competition beyond public service changes affecting community pharmacy last autumn. contracts, and that such a condition should not be Our proposals for reforming the current primary legislation attached to the exemption. On that basis, I joined a are contained in the Health Bill published in January large number of Ministers in calling for its scope to be and now before the Commons. limited to long distance and international journeys. As part of this work, I am today announcing the There was a progress report on a proposed amendment formation of a regulatory advisory group to help to Regulation (EC) 1321/2004 on the establishment of implement these changes, subject to parliamentary structures for the management of the European satellite approval of our provisions in the Bill. radio-navigation programmes. The amendment, which I have asked Mr Paul Burns to lead and chair this the UK supports, will bring the regulation into line group. Mr Burns is leaving his current post of chief with recent changes to the finance, governance and officer of the NHS Litigation Authority Appeal Unit procurement procedures for Galileo. Work on it will at the end of this month. He has an unrivalled wealth continue under the Swedish presidency. of experience of NHS pharmacy legislation. He will There was also a progress report on the proposal be inviting key organisations and stakeholders to join for a directive laying down the framework for the him in formulating the detailed regulations needed to deployment of intelligent transport systems in the EU. bring our reform proposals to reality. The Swedish presidency will now take forward negotiations The terms of reference for this important work are: in the working group. “Subject to Parliamentary approval of proposals in the Health The Council adopted conclusions, which the UK Bill 2009, to consider and advise on, and to help the Department supported, on transport trans-European networks (TEN- devise, regulations to implement a duty on NHS primary care T). The conclusions follow a Commission Green Paper, trusts to develop and to publish pharmaceutical needs assessments which took stock of TEN-T policy in the light of and on subsequent regulations required to use such assessments recent EU enlargement and the need to address the as the basis for determining the provision of NHS pharmaceutical challenges posed by climate change. services”. We expect the group to complete its programme by Spring 2011. Health: Pharmaceutical Services Pending this longer-term reform, I have considered Statement whether or not further changes are needed to the current arrangements for pharmacies prepared to provide The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, NHS services for at least 100 hours per week. We also Department of Health (Lord Darzi of Denham): My consulted on this last autumn. I fully recognise the right honourable friend the Minister of State Department strength of feeling this issue has generated. While of Health (Mike O’Brien) has made the following reforms now may have potential benefits, I am not Written Ministerial Statement. persuaded, after full consideration, that there should Chapter 5 of our pharmacy White Paper, Pharmacy be further changes to the current arrangements for in England: Building on strengths—delivering the future what will be a relatively short interim period before addressed the need to raise awareness of the many and new permanent arrangements are in place. varied services and benefits offered by pharmacies and In the absence of firm evidence that such pharmacies pharmacists. have had serious adverse impacts on the provision of WS 87 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 88

NHS services locally, and that some of the earlier The consultation document seeks views on varying problems reported to us are settling down, I have conditions to make the process more streamlined and concluded that these current arrangements should also seeks initial views on more substantive changes continue pending our longer-term strategic vision for which would require primary legislation. This element NHS services to be commissioned against local needs. of the consultation document responds to a I consider this is the right path to follow. recommendation in the Killian Pretty review of planning Once the new arrangements are in place, applications, applications. including those offering extended hours, will be determined Non-material amendments to planning permissions against those assessments. Existing pharmacies currently The final part of the consultation document proposes opening at least 100 hours per week who want to changes to secondary legislation necessary to bring reduce their hours will in due course be able to apply into effect a measure in the Planning Act 2008 which to the PCT for determinations based against those provides a simple and quick mechanism for making assessments. Otherwise, they will have to maintain non-material amendments to planning permissions. their commitment to open for at least 100 hours per Developers will not need to make a full planning week. application, but can instead apply simply to change This Government remain determined to transform one particular aspect of the permission. the delivery of pharmaceutical services. By developing We also want to encourage the use of local development community pharmacists’ clinical role and expanding orders. I can confirm that next week we will commence the range of services they offer, we want to ensure that a provision from the Planning Act 2008 that will allow people have a wider choice of, and greater access to an LDO to be set up independent of the local development modern, effective, frontline healthcare. I believe we are plan, and I am also removing the requirement for local on course to achieve that. authorities to obtain approval of an LDO from the Secretary of State. Planning I am also announcing today the availability of small-scale start up funding for a first wave of at least Statement 12 LDOs. The Planning Advisory Service is working with the department considering applications, and I The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, can report that we have now offered support to the Department for Communities and Local Government & first two LDO schemes. Department for Work and Pensions (Lord McKenzie of Amendments to the Building Regulations Luton): My right honourable friend the Minister for I am today also publishing a consultation on changes Housing and Planning (John Healey) has made the to Part L (conservation of fuel and power) and Part F following Written Ministerial Statement. (ventilation) to deliver the next step towards zero-carbon I am today publishing a consultation document buildings—a 25 per cent improvement on current entitled Greater Flexibility for Planning Permissions, standards for homes and other buildings from October which sets out proposals to provide greater flexibility 2010. for local authorities, to give developers more support The proposals in the consultation could deliver and scope to keep investment and activity ongoing savings of 3.3 million tonnes of carbon per year in during the economic downturn. This paper outlines a 2020. number of measures which do not require primary legislation. I intend to implement them rapidly, mainly The proposed changes mean that homes would in the autumn. have to be built with a suitable combination of better insulation and draught-proofing, better low-energy The consultation paper has three elements: lighting and more efficient boilers. By requiring higher Extension of the time limits for implementation of levels of energy efficiency in new homes residents will existing planning permissions benefit from lower fuel bills—up to £100 lower per We propose to give local authorities the discretion year than for homes built to the current standard. to extend the time limits for commencement of major In the consultation, we are also seeking views on developments. This will allow extension of the typical whether we should require energy efficiency standards three-year time limit for a further period, which in for conservatories. We know that conservatories are a most cases would be another three years. We intend relatively cost-effective way of increasing the living this as a temporary measure, which will apply to all space of a home, however, they can significantly increase permissions for major developments which are extant carbon emissions—a 20m2 conservatory with poor at the time it comes into force. The measure will energy efficiency standards added to a house built therefore be in operation for approximately three years, since 2002 and heated to the same temperature as that depending on the length of time which each individual house, would approximately double its carbon emissions. permission has left to run. So we are asking whether we should expect people to Minor material amendments to planning permissions spend an estimated additional £400 on a £10,000 new At present, when a developer wants to make a conservatory to improve its energy efficiency. small, but material, change to a scheme that already Later, we will be consulting more fully on how to has planning permission, it is often necessary to submit take forward the ambition from the March 2008 Budget a further full planning application, which leads to that all new non-domestic buildings should be zero considerable delay, cost and uncertainty for the applicant carbon from 2019. In the mean time, as we said in the and additional work for the local planning authority. zero carbon consultation in December 2008, it is important WS 89 Written Statements[18 JUNE 2009] Written Statements WS 90 to take early steps to start to further improve the makes a significant difference to carbon emissions energy performance of non-domestic buildings. So, from both new buildings and when these items are today’s Part L consultation also sets outs proposals replaced in existing homes. for a 25 per cent improvement on current standards The consultation will close on 17 September 2009 for new non-domestic buildings from October 2010. and any changes to the regulations are due to be made And finally, the consultation sets out proposals to by March 2010 to come into effect from October 2010. tighten the standards for some standard building systems Copies of the consultation documents will be placed and components, like boilers and windows, which in the Library of the House.

WA 219 Written Answers[18 JUNE 2009] Written Answers WA 220

severity of their injuries, were entitled to an uplift of Written Answers between 10 and 100 per cent in their upfront lump sum payment. Together with the index-linked, tax-free, annual Thursday 18 June 2009 guaranteed payment, this means the maximum total compensation is now in excess of £1.5 million. All those who have received awards since the start of the Afghanistan scheme in 2005 have benefited from these changes, and Question all additional payments have now been actioned and paid, meeting the April 2009 deadline. Asked by Lord Judd

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is Armed Forces: Severely Wounded their latest assessment of the effectiveness of Question co-operation between the Department for International Development and the Ministry of Defence in the Asked by Lord Morris of Manchester more unstable parts of Afghanistan. [HL4242] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action they are taking to ensure a seamless transition from Lord Brett: Civilian and military co-operation is military to civilian healthcare and ongoing care for vital to the success of the international effort in severely injured or disabled service personnel. Afghanistan. Staff from the Department for International [HL4189] Development (DfID), the Ministry of Defence (MoD) and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) work together in the Helmand Provincial Reconstruction The Minister for International Defence and Security Team (PRT) to deliver the activities guided by the (Baroness Taylor of Bolton): The majority of personnel Helmand road map, a shared single plan of action. who suffer serious injuries, including those who do not The joint effort of the PRT has ensured that significant return to full fitness, who wish to continue in-service progress has been made to meet the needs of the local are able to do so, provided that there are worthwhile population and build the capacity and capability of military roles for them to fulfil. Such cases will continue the Afghanistan Government to deliver security, to receive treatment and rehabilitation from the Defence governance and development to the people of Helmand. Medical Services (DMS) for as long as they remain in the Armed Forces. Armed Forces: Compensation Scheme In those cases where a decision has to be taken medically to discharge an individual, the specific DMS Question team which has been caring for that individual will begin a liaison with appropriate civilian healthcare Asked by Lord Morris of Manchester providers (eg the general practitioner, primary care trust, civilian mental health team or NHS trust) to To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they ensure the transfer of care and the patient’s records plan to return the burden of proof under the Armed takes place. In addition, we have specialist health Forces compensation scheme to the Secretary of social workers who manage the individual’s wider State for Defence. [HL4187] resettlement issues, liaising with relevant civil agencies such as local housing authorities, financial authorities, service welfare and charitable organisations with the The Minister for International Defence and Security aim of ensuring that the individual’s transfer into the (Baroness Taylor of Bolton): We have no plans to civilian environment is as smooth and as seamless as change the burden of proof, nor remove the time limit possible. for claims made under the Armed Forces compensation In particular, arrangements have been put in place scheme. to ensure that amputees who have been fitted with The standard of proof used in the Armed Forces high-quality prosthetics while in service will continue compensation scheme is based on the balance of to receive the same level of limb-fitting support from probabilities. This is the accepted approach in other the NHS when the individual leaves the service, be it schemes, such as the criminal injuries compensation on medical discharge or after completion of their scheme, and in the civil courts. No case should fail engagement. MoD and UK health departments have where there is reasonable, reliable evidence that injury agreed protocols to ensure the transfer of clinical care is due to service and the department is not aware of and financial responsibility from the MoD to the any examples to date of anyone who deserves an NHS. award being denied it due to the burden of proof. Since 1953, when Ministry of Pensions hospitals The Service Personnel Command Paper, The Nation’s were transferred to the NHS, war pensioners, and Commitment: Cross-Government Support to Our Armed more recently recipients of Armed Forces compensation Forces, Their families and Veterans, laid out our scheme awards, have been entitled to receive priority commitment to double the tax-free lump sum for the treatment at NHS hospitals for conditions accepted as most serious injuries, raising the maximum lump sum due to service, subject to clinical need. In 2007, this payment to £570,000. All recipients, according to the entitlement was extended to all veterans who are assessed WA 221 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 222 by their GP to have a condition related to their military The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry service. War pensioners under both schemes may also of Justice (Lord Bach): We anticipate that the be entitled to other benefits including free NHS Constitutional Renewal Bill will be introduced before prescriptions and aids or appliances if they are prescribed the Summer Recess for carry-over into the next for the accepted disablement. parliamentary Session. For veterans who may develop a mental health In addition, the Government intend to bring forward condition after their discharge, we are currently piloting a Bill to create an Independent Parliamentary Standards new models of community-based mental healthcare Authority before the House rises for the summer. that will address assessment and treatment of veterans’ mental health problems in the long term. The pilots are NHS-led and reflect NHS best practice. Two-year Counterterrorism pilots are running at six NHS sites in England, Scotland and Wales. Evaluation of the pilot areas is now underway, Questions and if they prove successful will be rolled out across To ask Her Majesty’s Government what was the the UK. budget for the Centre for the Protection of National In the interim, for areas not yet involved in the Infrastructure for 2008–09; what it is for 2009–10; pilots, veterans with operational service after 1982 and what is the planned budget for 2010–11. who are concerned about their mental health can [HL4278] attend our medical assessment programme (MAP) To ask Her Majesty’s Government what was the based at St Thomas’s Hospital, London. The MAP expenditure on the National Counter Terrorism offers assessment by an expert in mental health issues Security Office in 2008–09; what will be the expenditure in military service and will include, where appropriate, in 2009–10; and what is the planned expenditure in a recommendation to the individual and their GP for 2010–11. [HL4279] treatment. MoD also provides assessment and treatment for demobilised reservists with operational service since To ask Her Majesty’s Government what was the 2003 following an overseas operational deployment as expenditure on activity under the PROTECT strand a reservist, and who believes that the deployment may of the counterterrorism strategy in 2008–09; what have adversely affected their mental health. Details are will be the expenditure in 2009–10; and what is the available at the following link: http://www.army.mod.uk/ planned expenditure in 2010–11. [HL4280] welfare-support/family/13672.aspx. MoD is also the To ask Her Majesty’s Government what was the major donor to the charity Combat Stress, which expenditure on activity under the PREPARE strand offers care to ex-service personnel suffering from service- of the counterterrorism strategy in 2008–09; what related post-traumatic stress disorder. will be the expenditure in 2009–10; and what is the planned expenditure in 2010–11. [HL4281] Civil Service: Performance Pay The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Question Office (Lord West of Spithead): The United Kingdom’s strategy for countering international terrorism set out Asked by Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay details of government spending on counterterrorism and intelligence. It is forecast to rise from £2.5 billion To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the in 2008-09 to £3.5 billion in 2010-11. This budget is Written Answer by Baroness Vadera on 11 May wider than just expenditure on the Government’s (WA 156) concerning the amount of funding for counterterrorism strategy, CONTEST. senior civil servants’ performance-related pay, what Breaking down this budget by specific counterterrorism were the figures requested. [HL3639] and intelligence activities, beyond what is published already, would reveal our capabilities and details of the security and intelligence agencies’ spending. It has The Minister for Economic Competitiveness and Small been the policy of successive governments not to Business (Baroness Vadera): I provided a breakdown reveal these details. for senior civil servants’ performance-related pay in my Answer to the noble Lord on 8 June 2009 (Official The Centre for the Protection of National Report, col. WA 116). Infrastructure is funded from the Single Intelligence Account (SIA) which carries the budget provision for all three security and intelligence agencies (the Security Service, SIS and GCHQ). Detailed breakdowns showing Constitutional Renewal Bill the division of funding between the three agencies are Question not published for security reasons. However, some information is already made publicly Asked by Lord Lester of Herne Hill available. This includes: £1.2 billion e-Borders system which has screened To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they over 80 million passengers travelling to the UK, intend to introduce the Constitutional Renewal Bill using data received from approximately 105 carriers before the Summer Recess. [HL3848] on over 185 routes; WA 223 Written Answers[18 JUNE 2009] Written Answers WA 224

assistance worth £4.7 million was approved in 2008 Cyprus: Property and focused on overseas aviation and maritime security; Questions £5 million for 2009-10 to support regional and Asked by Lord Jones of Cheltenham local delivery of work in England and Wales to improve the protection of crowded places as set To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the out in the Government’s consultation document Written Answer by Lord Malloch-Brown on 8 June Working Together to Protect Crowded Places; and (WA 117), what steps they will take to warn those £2.7 million for the period 2007-08 to 2008-09 to contemplating buying property in Cyprus of the increase the size of the National Barrier Asset. risk of losing their homes when developers who have retained title deeds in order to raise further More than £1.5 million in 2008-09 to support additional loans default on those loans. [HL4262] counterterrorist security advisers posts.

Asked by Baroness Neville-Jones Lord Brett: The travel advice on the Foreign and To ask Her Majesty’s Government what new Commonwealth Office website (www.fco.gov.uk) advises money has been allocated in the revised those contemplating buying property in Cyprus to counterterrorism strategy to (a) pursue, (b) prevent, proceed with caution and to seek qualified legal advice from a source that is independent from anyone else (c) protect, and (d) prepare. [HL4282] involved in the transaction. It refers to the problems with obtaining title deeds and the risks which this Lord West of Spithead: The single security and causes. intelligence budget, which includes government spending on counterterrorism and intelligence, was announced Asked by Lord Jones of Cheltenham as part of the 2007 Comprehensive Spending Review. It is forecast to rise from £2.5 billion in 2008-09 to To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the £3.5 billion in 2010-11. The new version of the United Written Answer by Lord Malloch-Brown on 8 June Kingdom’s strategy for countering international terrorism (WA117), whether they will work with other European will be delivered within this envelope. countries to urge the Government of Cyprus to prosecute individuals who have retained title deeds Breaking down this budget by specific counterterrorism after completion of property sales in Cyprus to and intelligence activities, beyond what is published United Kingdom and other European citizens. already, would reveal our capabilities and details of [HL4264] the security and intelligence agencies spending. It has been the policy of successive governments not to reveal these details. Lord Brett: The issue of whether or not to prosecute individuals who have retained title deeds after completion Cycling of property sales in Cyprus to UK and other European citizens is a matter of Cypriot law and therefore a Questions decision for the Cypriot authorities. Asked by Lord Berkeley To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the Economic Partnership Agreements: ACP Department of Health is implementing the Countries Government’s cycle-to-work scheme. [HL4116] Question The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Asked by The Earl of Sandwich Department of Health (Lord Darzi of Denham): The department implemented the cycle-to-work scheme on To ask Her Majesty’s Government which African, 2 June 2008. Caribbean and Pacific countries have not yet accepted an interim national or regional economic partnership Asked by Lord Berkeley agreement with the European Union; and what transitional assistance and advice is being given To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they to them by the Department for International ensure that highway authorities undertake cycle Development. [HL4204] audits on proposed new road schemes in accordance with Department for Transport best practice guidelines. [HL4268] Lord Brett: The following 41 African Caribbean and Pacific (ACP) countries have not as yet signed an The Secretary of State for Transport (Lord Adonis): economic partnership agreement (EPA) with the European There is no mandatory requirement for local highway Union (EU): authorities to undertake cycle audits. Highway authorities Gabon, Republic of Congo-(Brazzaville), the Cook have a duty to ensure that new road schemes are safe Islands, Tonga, Marshall Islands, Niue, Micronesia, for all users, and it is for them to determine whether a Palau, Nauru, Nigeria, Central African Republic, DR cycle audit is required to achieve this. Congo, Chad, Equatorial Guinea, Sao Tome, Djibouti, WA 225 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 226

Eritrea, Ethiopia, Malawi, Somalia, Sudan, East Timor, In respect of the culturing of embryos and stem cell Kiribati, Samoa, Solomon Islands, Tuvalu, Vanuatu, derivation, the HEFA has confirmed that it has nothing Benin, Burkina Faso, Cape Verde, Gambia, Guinea, further to add to the responses given to the noble Lord Guinea Bissau, Liberia, Mali, Mauritania, Niger,Senegal, on 3 June 2009 (WA87-8) and 24 June 2008 (WA227). Sierra Leone, Togo and Angola. Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool The Department for International Development’s (DfID) assistance is not linked to signing of EPAs. However, DfID provides significant support through To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to such measures as aid for trade to help ACP countries, the Written Answers by Lord Darzi of Denham on as well as other developing countries, to increase their 10 January 2008 (WA 216) and by Lord Drayson on trading capacity and to help them integrate further 19 May 2009 (WA290), when the Newcastle primary into regional and global markets. care trust will offer more than one cycle of initial vitro fertilisation in accordance with the February 2004 National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence guidelines; and whether it will take place Embryology before the end of 2009. [HL4185] Questions Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool Lord Darzi of Denham: Newcastle Primary Care Trust has advised that it currently commissions three To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to cycles of in vitro fertilisation for eligible patients. the Written Answers by Lord Darzi of Denham on 3 June (WA 87–8), whether outgrowing embryos could not be used to derive embryonic stem cells by Roslin Cells Limited if the latest inspection report Gulf War Illnesses for that centre does not contain details of the embryo culture method used, and if no licence Question permits the culture of a “live human embryo” beyond 14 days or the appearance of the primitive Asked by Lord Bramall streak (whichever comes first). [HL4181] To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the Written Answer by Baroness Taylor of Bolton on Written Answers by Baroness Thornton on 20 April 19 May (WA 295) on the report of the 2009 (WA 329) and by Lord Darzi of Denham on Congressionally-mandated United States Research 24 June 2008 (WA 227) and 3 June 2009 (WA 87–8), Advisory Committee’s Inquiry into Gulf War illnesses, how the Human Fertilisation and Embryology whether they have now checked the accuracy of Authority determines a centre’s compliance with Lord Tunnicliffe’s Statement on 27 April (Official the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act 1990 Report, House of Lords, cols. 8–10) that the US in relation to embryo culture when the method used Institute of Medicine was then reviewing the report; for embryo culture is not described. [HL4183] and whether they will amend the statement. To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to [HL4180] the Written Answer by Lord Darzi of Denham on 20 January (WA 196–7) and 3 June (WA 87–8), if inspection reports of research centres licensed by The Minister for International Defence and Security the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority (Baroness Taylor of Bolton): Government answers on (HFEA) indicate that no embryonic stem cell lines the US Research Advisory Committee report have have been derived from cytoplasmic hybrid embryos, been accurate and reflect what the US authorities have and if the HFEA monitors both the use of embryos publicly stated. There is no requirement for an amendment in research and the culture of their cells as part of taking into account the information that has currently its research inspection process, why an inspection been made available to the Government. We have not report does not indicate whether a stem cell line has seen the letter dated 24 April referred to by Lord been derived using a method for which stem cell Morris during the Answer given by Lord Tunnicliffe derivation is the stated aim when the method entails on 27 April (Official Report, col. 8-10) but we have culture of outgrowing embryos beyond 14 days. requested a copy. If the letter dated 24 April provides [HL4184] further information on the Institute of Medicine (IOM) review then we will take this into account. However, we do not believe that this will alter the position that The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, the IOM is due to publish its findings in February Department of Health (Lord Darzi of Denham): The 2010, having been asked to review the report and make Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority (HFEA) recommendations. Further information on the IOM has advised that at all inspections, the authority’s review, provided by the US Department of Veterans inspectors are required to check that there is a procedure Affairs (DVA), can be found by accessing the US in place to ensure that embryos are not cultured for House Committee on Veterans Affairs website at http:// longer than 14 days or after the appearance of the veterans.house.gov/hearings/ primitive streak. hearing.aspx?NewsID=394. WA 227 Written Answers[18 JUNE 2009] Written Answers WA 228

Health: Contaminated Blood Products Asked by Baroness Campbell of Surbiton Questions To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to Asked by Lord Morris of Manchester the Written Statement by Lord Darzi of Denham on 20 May (WS 122), why they did not respond nor To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to refer to the Archer report’s recommendation (at the Written Statement by Lord Darzi of Denham page 109) calling for action to end the anomaly of on 20 May (WS 121–22), how the average annual basing entitlement to financial help of the widow of payment of £6,400 for the Macfarlane Trust’s a fatally-infected haemophilia patient on the date beneficiaries was determined; and whether any meetings of his death; and whether they will now respond to between officials at the Department of Health and the recommendation. [HL4227] the trust have demonstrated that the sum may need adjusting. [HL4131] Lord Darzi of Denham: The purpose of the Written Ministerial Statement on 20 May 2009 (WS 122)was to inform the House of the publication of the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Government’s response to the Archer report. The Department of Health (Lord Darzi of Denham): A Government’s response contains a commitment to broad indicator of the annual level of benefit currently review the Skipton Fund in 2014. available through the Macfarlane Trust was calculated by dividing the total number of beneficiaries into the The Macfarlane and Eileen Trusts have always been total expenditure of the trusts, the result being an able to make payments on a case by case basis to overall average of £6,400. Officials also referred to dependents of those entitled to financial relief, and information from the trust about the amounts payable that will remain the case. to individuals. There is no reason to adjust the £6,400 figure as the Government’s response to Lord Archer’s Health: Drugs recommendations makes clear that in future all infected Question beneficiaries will receive £12,800 per annum. Asked by Lord Naseby Asked by Lord Morris of Manchester To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the Written Answer by Lord Darzi of Denham on the Written Statement by Lord Darzi of Denham 20 May (WA 338), when they will place in the on 20 May (WS 121–22), when the average annual Library of the House their response regarding the payment made to the Macfarlane Trust’s beneficiaries supply of anti-viral drugs to the overseas territories. will be increased; whether payments will be back-dated [HL4178] to 20 May; and whether any payments made between 20 May and the date the new level is introduced will The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, be discounted. [HL4134] Department of Health (Lord Darzi of Denham): All the overseas territories have pandemic preparedness plans, which have now been activated. However, if any of the Lord Darzi of Denham: The Macfarlane Trust will overseas territories is not able to access antivirals or be enabled to make flat rate payments to all infected vaccine (when it becomes available), we will support it beneficiaries of £12,800 per year with effect from by providing access to the United Kingdom (UK) 20 May 2009. stockpile. This access would be up to the equivalent Asked by Lord Morris of Manchester level of provision as the UK and would generally be on a repayment basis. In addition, we would seek to To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to replace any antiviral or vaccines that were taken from the Written Answer by Lord Darzi of Denham the UK stockpile. on 5 May (WA 100–01), whether Lord Darzi of Denham will now act on the assurance given to him Healthcare: Funding by Mrs Harriet Bullock, the widow of a haemophilia Question patient contaminated by National Health Service blood products, that she has no objection to the Asked by Baroness Tonge text of the letter referred to in the question by Lord Roberts of Conwy being published in full in the To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they Official Report. [HL4186] monitor the levels of funding for healthcare necessary to deal with infections in primary and community care. [HL4234] Lord Darzi of Denham: The department received an assurance from Mrs Bullock on 11 May 2009 that she The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, had no objection to the text of her letter referred to in Department of Health (Lord Darzi of Denham): Primary the Question by Lord Roberts of Conwy being published care trusts are responsible for commissioning services in full. The date of that letter was 9 March 2009 and a that improve the health and well-being of the population, reply was sent on 21 April 2009, and copies of both of and are fair, personalised, effective and safe. To do these are being placed in the Library. this, they assess the needs of their population, prioritise WA 229 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 230 investment, contract with providers and monitor the member. We also provide targeted support directly to quality of services. Consequently, all decisions on trusts on healthcare associated infections and use this funding for services relating to infectious diseases and experience of the front line to inform other activities. healthcare acquired infections are taken locally, and the department does not hold relevant data centrally. Human Rights Healthcare: Secondary Infection Question Questions Asked by Lord Judd Asked by Baroness Tonge To ask Her Majesty’s Government what part To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment human rights play in the sector reform programmes they have made of the factors that increase healthcare- they are supporting in Iraq, Afghanistan and associated infections in secondary care. [HL4205] developing countries in general. [HL4244]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Lord Brett: Human rights principles underpin the Department of Health (Lord Darzi of Denham): We UK Government’s work in developing countries. The have based our infection control advice for secondary policy of the Department for International Development care on the best available evidence. There are a range (DfID) is to put people, their rights and social justice of important factors that if not addressed will lead to at the heart of its development work and to mainstream increased rates of infection. human rights in development programmes. This approach The EPIC evidence-based guidelines for the prevention is reinforced by the conditionality policy which bases of healthcare acquired infections (HCAIs), which has UK aid partnerships on a shared commitment to already been placed in the library, set out the personal respect human rights. DfID policy is to take partner actions required to prevent HCAIs. Important factors Governments’ commitment to human rights into account are hand hygiene, environmental hygiene, correct when decisions are made about development partnership antimicrobial prescribing, safe disposal of sharps, and agreements, country strategies, and providing aid. correct aseptic technique. The UK Government are committed to working Organisational measures needed to prevent infections with the Iraqi and Afghan Governments to ensure are detailed in the code of practice for the prevention that the basic human rights of the peoples of those and control of HCAIs, which has also already been countries are protected. In Iraq, DfID is supporting placed in the Library. These include appropriate key international agencies to ensure the provision of surveillance, clear antibiotic prescribing policies, board- human rights—especially those related to freedom level assurances for HCAI performance, adequate training from hunger, violence and forced displacement—for for all staff in infection control and co-ordination vulnerable groups, including those displaced internally between organisations. and in neighbouring countries. In Afghanistan the UK is working with the Afghan justice institutions to Asked by Baroness Tonge develop a national policy on non-state justice mechanisms.

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what measures they have taken to ensure a co-ordinated approach Lisbon Treaty to tackling healthcare-associated infections between healthcare professionals, patients and officials. Question [HL4206] Asked by Viscount Waverley

Lord Darzi of Denham: We take a number of measures To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their to ensure a co-ordinated approach between the parties assessment of whether the Lisbon treaty represents mentioned. a mechanism for deeper integration or administers the European Union more effectively. [HL4162] Development and review of policies and guidance take account of views from both healthcare professionals and patient groups. Significant pieces of work, such as the Code of Practice for the Prevention and Control of Lord Brett: The Lisbon treaty will help the enlarged Healthcare Associated Infections, are formally consulted EU work more effectively by streamlining the institutions on, and views of healthcare professionals and patients and decision-making processes, creating a single set of are being sought in the development of a new minimum clear, coherent objectives for EU activity in Europe standard for methicillin-resistant staphylococcus aureus and around the world, and by making the EU more (M RSA). accountable to member states and national parliaments. Our advisory committee on antimicrobial resistance Parliament has decided on the Lisbon treaty. The and healthcare associated infection (ARHAI) membership treaty was debated in detail in Parliament over 25 days; includes academics, healthcare professionals and a lay both Houses voted strongly in favour at every stage. WA 231 Written Answers[18 JUNE 2009] Written Answers WA 232

Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Lord Darzi of Denham): There Question is no intention at this time to extend the smoke free law to any outdoor places. Asked by Lord Goodlad To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions Asked by Lord Laird they have had with the Planning Inspectorate about the proposed appellate functions in the Marine and To ask Her Majesty’s Government how much it Coastal Access Bill; and what was the outcome. cost to provide health services to those with smoking- [HL4193] related conditions in 2006–07. [HL4259]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Lord Darzi of Denham: In 1998 the Government’s (Lord Davies of Oldham): We held detailed discussions White Paper, Smoking Kills, estimated that the cost to with the Planning Inspectorate in developing the objection the National Health Service of treating illness and procedure in Schedule 1A to the National Parks and disease caused by smoking was £1.7 billion every year. Access to the Countryside Act 1949 which has been In October 2008, Action on Smoking and Health inserted in the Marine and Coastal Access Bill. The published a report called Beyond Smoking Kills, which schedule provides a process in which objections to estimated that the costs of smoking to the NHS had Natural England’s coastal access proposals made by a risen to £2.7 billion a year. person with a relevant interest in affected land may be referred to an appointed person. We envisage that the The latest research published in the Journal of appointed person will be an inspector from the Planning Tobacco Control in June 2009, by researchers from Inspectorate. the University of Oxford Department of Public Health, estimates the costs of smoking to the NHS at £5.2 billion. Migrant Workers: Romania and Bulgaria Question Asked by Lord Laird Turks and Caicos Islands Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many (a) Romanian, and (b) Bulgarian, nationals have Asked by Lord Jones of Cheltenham registered as workers and entered the United Kingdom in each year since the accession of those countries To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment to the European Union; how many of their family they have made of progress made by the new members have entered the United Kingdom; and Government of the Turks and Caicos Islands in how many are claiming social security benefits. implementing recommendations made in Sir Robin [HL4176] Auld’s preliminary report on that country; and whether they will work with the new Government The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home to implement all of the recommendations in the Office (Lord West of Spithead): Information relating final report. [HL4266] to the number of Romanian and Bulgarian nationals who have registered as workers is published in the Bulgarian and Romanian Accession Statistics which Lord Brett: We welcome the Turks and Caicos are published quarterly and are available in the Libraries Islands Government’s efforts to begin to resolve the of the House. issues highlighted in Sir Robin Auld’s interim report. Information on the number of family members Once we have considered the commission’s final report who have entered in the UK is not available centrally in detail, we will set out the steps needed to address the and could be obtained only at disproportionate costs. commissioners’ recommendations. We hope that the Turks and Caicos Islands Government will continue The Department for Work and Pensions has advised to support the governor in order to restore good that information on the number of Romanian and governance and sound financial management to the Bulgarian nationals in receipt of social security benefits Turks and Caicos Islands. is not available.

Smoking UK Border Agency: Staff Questions Question Asked by Lord Laird Asked by Lord Wallace of Saltaire To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will bring forward proposals to ban or restrict To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many smoking in public locations which are in the open. staff of the UK Border Agency are posted abroad; [HL4225] and in which countries. [HL4207] WA 233 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 234

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home UK Based, Office (Lord West of Spithead): The number of staff posted working for the UK Border Agency posted abroad are abroad as at Locally shown in the attached table, as at 1 April 2009. Country 1 April 2009 Engaged Total Iraq 2 1 3 Irish Republic 2 10 12 UK Based, Israel 2 9 11 posted Italy 3 9 12 abroad as at Locally Country 1 April 2009 Engaged Total Jamaica 8 16 24 Japan 123 Albania 369Jordan 6 11 17 Algeria 2 3 5 Kazakhstan 4 4 8 Angola 2 2 4 Kenya 112536 Argentina 0 2 2 Korea 224 Armenia 2 2 4 Kuwait 5 9 14 Australia 1 29 30 Latvia 0 2 2 Austria 0 4 4 Lebanon 2 3 5 Azerbaijan 2 5 7 Libya 7 7 14 Bangladesh 12 56 68 Lithuania 0 2 2 Barbados 0 3 3 Macedonia 3 7 10 Belarus 2 4 6 Malawi 1 1 2 Belgium 1 2 3 Malaysia 5 10 15 Belize 1 2 3 Malta 0 2 2 Bolivia 1 2 3 Mauritius 3 5 8 Bosnia and Herzegovinia 1 2 3 Mexico 1 2 3 Botswana 2 4 6 Moldova 1 5 6 Brazil 3 10 13 Mongolia 1 2 3 Brunei 4 2 6 Montenegro 2 2 4 Bulgaria 0 3 3 Morocco 3 9 12 Burma 3 3 6 Mozambique 1 1 2 Cambodia 1 2 3 Namibia 1 0 1 Cameroon 1 2 3 Nepal 0 3 3 Canada 4 11 15 Netherlands 1 5 6 Chile 0 2 2 New Zealand 1 1 2 China 47 92 139 Nigeria 66 132 198 Colombia 4 10 14 North Korea 3 0 3 Congo (Dem. Rep.) 3 3 6 Norway 2 4 6 Croatia 1 3 4 Oman 2 3 5 Cuba 3 3 6 Pakistan 29 126 155 Cyprus 3 7 10 Panama 1 3 4 Czech Republic 0 4 4 Papua New Guinea 2 2 4 Denmark 2 3 5 Peru 0 3 3 Dominican Republic 1 3 4 Philippines 15 26 41 Ecuador 1 2 3 Poland 4 5 9 Egypt 121022Portugal 0 4 4 Eritrea 2 1 3 Qatar 3 5 8 Estonia 0 2 2 Romania 5 5 10 Ethiopia 6 7 13 Russian Federation 22 40 62 Fiji 2 2 4 Rwanda 2 2 4 Finland 1 3 4 Saint Lucia 1 2 3 France 2 16 18 Saudi Arabia 5 10 15 Gambia, The 4 9 13 Senegal 1 2 3 Georgia 3 2 5 Seychelles 0 1 1 Germany 2 17 19 Sierra Leone 2 4 6 Ghana 16 31 47 Singapore 0 1 1 Greece 2 4 6 Slovakia 0 1 1 Guatemala 1 3 4 South Africa 17 35 52 Guyana 1 1 2 Spain 3 12 15 Hungary 0 2 2 Sri Lanka 4 6 10 Iceland 1 2 3 Sudan 3 3 6 India 73 213 286 Sweden 0 7 7 Indonesia 5 4 9 Switzerland 1 6 7 Iran 5 21 26 Syria . 2 1 3 WA 235 Written Answers[18 JUNE 2009] Written Answers WA 236

UK Based, UK Based, posted posted abroad as at Locally abroad as at Locally Country 1 April 2009 Engaged Total Country 1 April 2009 Engaged Total

Taiwan (China) 4 8 12 Uzbekistan 2 2 4 Tajikistan 1 1 2 Venezuela 0 2 2 Tanzania 4 3 7 Vietnam 2 8 10 Thailand 11 24 35 Yemen 325 Trinidad and Tobago 2 3 5 Yugoslavia 4 7 11 Tunisia 2 4 6 Zambia 2 2 4 Turkey 17 35 52 Zimbabwe 3 5 8 629 1507 2136 Turkmenistan 3 2 5 Uganda 4 2 6 Ukraine 6 12 18 The proposed answer amalgamates the available United Arab Emirates 23 56 79 data and gives countries only where more than five United States 7 68 75 UK based staff have been posted. This is in accordance Unknown 3 0 3 with long standing practice that we do not disclose information on small numbers of staff which could Uruguay 1 0 1 identify individuals.

Thursday 18 June 2009

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Col. No. Col. No. Armed Forces: Recruitment...... 73 Diplomatic Missions and International Organisations: Unpaid Traffic Fines...... 80 Asset Freezing ...... 74 Diplomatic Missions: Unpaid Non-Domestic Rates...... 82

Courts Fees...... 74 ECOFIN ...... 82

Diplomatic Immunity: Serious Offences ...... 77 EU: Transport Council ...... 84 Health: Pharmaceutical Services...... 85 Diplomatic Missions and International Organisations: Unpaid Congestion Charge and Fines...... 79 Planning ...... 87

Thursday 18 June 2009

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. Afghanistan...... 219 Health: Contaminated Blood Products...... 227

Armed Forces: Compensation Scheme...... 219 Health: Drugs ...... 228

Armed Forces: Severely Wounded...... 220 Healthcare: Funding...... 228

Civil Service: Performance Pay ...... 221 Healthcare: Secondary Infection...... 229

Constitutional Renewal Bill ...... 221 Human Rights ...... 230

Counterterrorism ...... 222 Lisbon Treaty...... 230

Cycling...... 223 Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL]...... 231

Cyprus: Property ...... 224 Migrant Workers: Romania and Bulgaria ...... 231

Economic Partnership Agreements: ACP Countries ...... 224 Smoking ...... 231

Embryology ...... 225 Turks and Caicos Islands ...... 232

Gulf War Illnesses ...... 226 UK Border Agency: Staff ...... 232 NUMERICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. [HL3639] ...... 221 [HL4178] ...... 228

[HL3848] ...... 221 [HL4180] ...... 226

[HL4116] ...... 223 [HL4181] ...... 225

[HL4131] ...... 227 [HL4183] ...... 225

[HL4134] ...... 227 [HL4184] ...... 225

[HL4162] ...... 230 [HL4185] ...... 226

[HL4176] ...... 231 [HL4186] ...... 227 Col. No. Col. No. [HL4187] ...... 219 [HL4244] ...... 230

[HL4189] ...... 220 [HL4259] ...... 232

[HL4193] ...... 231 [HL4262] ...... 224

[HL4204] ...... 224 [HL4264] ...... 224

[HL4205] ...... 229 [HL4266] ...... 232

[HL4206] ...... 229 [HL4268] ...... 223

[HL4207] ...... 232 [HL4278] ...... 222

[HL4225] ...... 231 [HL4279] ...... 222

[HL4227] ...... 228 [HL4280] ...... 222

[HL4234] ...... 228 [HL4281] ...... 222

[HL4242] ...... 219 [HL4282] ...... 223 Volume 711 Thursday No. 92 18 June 2009

CONTENTS

Thursday 18 June 2009 Death of a Member: Lord Dahrendorf Announcement ...... 1173 Questions Kenya: British Army...... 1173 Asylum Seekers: Democratic Republic of Congo...... 1175 Health: Obesity ...... 1178 EU: Alternative Investment Funds...... 1181 Business of the House Timing of Debates...... 1183 Five Statutory Instruments Motions to Refer to Grand Committee ...... 1183 Olympic Games 2012 Debate ...... 1184 Iraq Debate ...... 1226 Climate Projections Statement ...... 1264 Armed Forces, Army, Air Force and Naval Discipline Acts (Continuation) Order 2009 ...... 1275 Armed Forces (Part 5 of the Armed Forces Act 2006) Regulations 2009...... 1283 Armed Forces (Enlistment) Regulations 2009 ...... 1283 Armed Forces (Court Martial) Rules 2009...... 1283 Armed Forces (Civilian Courts Dealing with Service Offences) (Modification of the Criminal Justice Act 2003) Regulations 2009 ...... 1283 Court Martial (Prosecution Appeals) Order 2009 ...... 1283 Armed Forces (Powers of Stop and Search, Search, Seizure and Retention) Order 2009...... 1284 Armed Forces Act 2006 (Consequential Amendments) Order 2009 Motions to Approve...... 1284 Grand Committee Welfare Reform Bill Committee (4th Day)...... GC 287 Written Statements...... WS 73 Written Answers...... WA 219