DAILY

YOUR VOICE IN PARLIAMENT

THETHE SECOND THIRD MEETING MEETING OF THE OF FIRST THE SESSIONFIFTH SESSION OF THE OF THE ELEVENTWELFTH PARLIAMENTTH PARLIAMENT THURSDAY 3 SEPTEMBER 2020

MIXEDENGLISH VERSION VERSION HANSARDHANSARD NO. NO: 193 198

DISCLAIMER Uno cial Hansard This transcript of Parliamentary proceedings is an uno cial version of the Hansard and may contain inaccuracies. It is hereby published for general purposes only. The nal edited version of the Hansard will be published when available and can be obtained from the Assistant Clerk (Editorial). THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY SPEAKER The Hon. Phandu T. C. Skelemani PH, MP. DEPUTY SPEAKER The Hon. Mabuse M. Pule, MP. ( East)

Clerk of the National Assembly - Ms B. N. Dithapo Deputy Clerk of the National Assembly - Mr L. T. Gaolaolwe Learned Parliamentary Counsel - Ms M. Mokgosi Assistant Clerk (E) - Mr R. Josiah CABINET His Excellency Dr M. E. K. Masisi, MP. - President

His Honour S. Tsogwane, MP. (Boteti West) - Vice President Minister for Presidential Affairs, Governance and Public Hon. K. N. S. Morwaeng, MP. ( South) - Administration

Hon. K. T. Mmusi, MP. (-) - Minister of Defence, Justice and Security Hon. Dr L. Kwape, MP. (Kanye South) - Minister of International Affairs and Cooperation Hon. E. M. Molale, MP. (Goodhope-Mabule ) - Minister of Local Government and Rural Development Hon. K. S. Gare, MP. (-Manyana) - Minister of Agricultural Development and Food Security Minister of Environment, Natural Resources Conservation Hon. P. K. Kereng, MP. (Specially Elected) - and Tourism Hon. Dr E. G. Dikoloti MP. (Mmathethe-Molapowabojang) - Minister of Health and Wellness Hon. T.M. Segokgo, MP. (Tlokweng) - Minister of Transport and Communications Hon. K. Mzwinila, MP. (Specially Elected) - Minister of Land Management, Water and Sanitation Services Minister of Youth Empowerment, Sport and Culture Hon. T. M. Rakgare, MP. () - Development

Hon. A. M. Mokgethi, MP. ( Bonnington North) - Minister of Nationality, Immigration and Gender Affairs Hon. Dr T. Matsheka, MP. () - Minister of Finance and Economic Development Hon. F. M. M. Molao, MP. (Shashe West) - Minister of Basic Education Minister of Tertiary Education, Research, Science and Hon. Dr D. Letsholathebe, MP. (Tati East) - Technology Minister of Mineral Resources, Green Technology and Hon. L. M. Moagi, MP. (Ramotswa) - Energy Security

Hon. P. O. Serame, MP. (Specially Elected) - Minister of Investment, Trade and Industry Minister of Employment, Labour Productivity and Skills Hon. M. Balopi, MP. (Gaborone North) - Development

Hon. M. Kgafela, MP. (Mochudi West) - Minister of Infrastructure and Housing Development

Assistant Minister, Presidential Affairs, Governance and Hon. D. M. Mthimkhulu, MP. (Gaborone South) - Public Administration Assistant Minister, Local Government and Rural Hon. K. K. Autlwetse, MP. (Specially Elected) - Development Assistant Minister, Local Government and Rural Hon. S. N. Modukanele, MP. (Lerala -Maunatlala) - Development Assistant Minister, Agricultural Development and Food Hon. B. Manake, MP. (Specially Elected) - Security

Hon. S. Lelatisitswe, MP. (Boteti East) - Assistant Minister, Health and Wellness

Hon. N. W. T. Makwinja, MP. (-) - Assistant Minister, Basic Education

Hon. M. S. Molebatsi, MP. (Mmadinare) - Assistant Minister, Investment, Trade and Industry Assistant Minister, Youth Empowerment, Sport and Culture Hon. H. B. Billy, MP. (Francistown East) - Development Hon. M. R. Shamukuni, MP. (Chobe) - Assistant Minister,Tertiary Education, Research, Science and Technology MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT AND THEIR CONSTITUENCIES

Names Constituency

RULING PARTY ( Democratic Party) Hon. L. Kablay, MP. (Government Whip) - Hon. Dr U. Dow, MP. Specially Elected Hon. M. R. Reatile, MP. -Mabutsane Hon. P. Majaga, MP. Nata-Gweta Hon. J. S. Brooks, MP. Kgalagadi South Hon. C. Greeff, MP. Gaborone Bonnington South Hon. T. Letsholo, MP. Kanye North Hon. T. F. Leuwe, MP. Takatokwane Hon. T. Mangwegape-Healy, MP. Gaborone Central Hon. S. N. Moabi, MP. Tati West Hon. T. Monnakgotla, MP. Kgalagadi North Hon. P. K. Motaosane, MP. - Hon. O. Regoeng, MP. Molepolole North Hon. J. L. Thiite, MP. North OPPOSITION (Umbrella for Democratic Change) Hon. D. Saleshando, MP. (Leader of Opposition) Maun West Hon. P. P. P. Moatlhodi, MP. (Opposition Whip) Tonota Hon. D. L. Keorapetse, MP. Selebi Phikwe West Hon. Y. Boko, MP East Hon. Dr K. Gobotswang, MP. Sefhare-Ramokgonami Hon. C. K. Hikuama, MP. Ngami Hon. K. K. Kapinga, MP Okavango Hon. G. Kekgonegile, MP. Maun East Hon. A. Lesaso, MP. Shoshong Hon. T. B. Lucas, MP. Bobonong Hon. M. G. J. Motsamai, MP. Ghanzi South Hon. K. Nkawana, MP. Selebi Phikwe East Hon. O. Ramogapi, MP. Palapye Hon. Dr N. Tshabang, MP. Nkange Hon. D. Tshere, MP. Mahalapye West (Botswana Patriotic Front) Hon. T. S. Khama, MP. West Hon. L. Lesedi, MP. Serowe South Hon. B. Mathoothe, MP. Serowe North (Alliance for Progressives) Hon. W. B. Mmolotsi, MP. Francistown South (Independent Member of Parliament) Hon. M. I. Moswaane, MP. Francistown West TABLE OF CONTENTS THE THIRD MEETING OF THE FIRST SESSION OF THE TWELFTH PARLIAMENT THURSDAY 3RD SEPTEMBER, 2020

CONTENTS PAGE (S)

APPROVAL OF THE MID-TERM REVIEW OF NATIONAL DEVELOPMENT PLAN 11: 2017/2018 – 2022/2023 Sectoral Debate: Chapter 6 Sustainable Environment (Resumed Debate)...... 1-12

Sectoral Debate:Chapter 7 Governance, Peace and Security...... 13-20 (Resumed Debate)...... 55-58

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER...... 21-32 QUESTION WITHOUT NOTICE...... 32

BILLS Media Practitioners (Repeal) Bill, 2019 (No. 29 of 2019) Second Reading (Resumed Debate)...... 33-44

Prisons (Amendment) Bill, 2019 (No. 26 of 2019) Second Reading...... 45-54

Thursday 3rd September, 2020 SECTORAL DEBATE:CHAPTER 6 SUSTAINABLE ENVIRONMENT (Resumed Debate)

Thursday 3rd September, 2020 While still on Honourable Rakgare’s ministry, we have a request. We need a library at Kumakwane because THE ASSEMBLY met at 11:00 a.m. students do not have a place where they can study (THE SPEAKER in the Chair) either after school or over the weekend. They need this kind of place which can provide them with books for P R A Y E R S their research. We also have a situation of shortage of textbooks in schools and teachers struggle to divide * * * * these books amongst students. So, it is one of the most MR SPEAKER (MR SKELEMANI): Order! Order! important issues. Honourable Members, good morning. Let us start our As I move on, I will go back to talk about issues which business of today with a Motion. fall under Local Government. I appreciate their plan APPROVAL OF THE MID-TERM to upgrade some of sub-districts into fully-fledged REVIEW OF districts. Nevertheless, I have a request Honourable Molale that as we are planning, let us not upgrade them NATIONAL DEVELOPMENT PLAN 11: before upgrading areas like Thamaga, Mmadinare and 2017/2018 – 2022/2023 Lentsweletau into fully-fledged sub-districts as well as providing them with necessary services. It is a good SECTORAL DEBATE idea but it will be inappropriate for us to do that. For CHAPTER 6 example; it is wrong to give a loaf of bread to a child, then a cow, while there is yet another child who has SUSTAINABLE ENVIRONMENT nothing. So, we have to start with these sub-districts; Thamaga being the first one on the list of those which (Resumed Debate) have to be upgraded in the year 2021/2022. That is my MR SPEAKER: We are resuming the sectoral request Honourable Molale. discussion of the National Development Plan (NDP) 11 2017/2018 to 2022/2023, with Chapter 6 being While still on Honourable Molale’s Ministry, I will talk Sustainable Environment. When the House adjourned about Dikgosi. We have challenges of offices that are not yesterday, Honourable Motaosane was on the floor maintained in and Lesilakgokong villages. debating and he was left with four minutes 35 seconds. My first priority is Lesilakgokong village because its offices have never been maintained ever since they were MR MOTAOSANE (THAMAGA-KUMAKWANE): built. Thank you Mr Speaker. I believe I spoke a lot about roads before we stopped yesterday. I believe the Honourable We do not have a Kgosi at Kotolaname. It has almost Minister heard my plea especially when I talked about been a year since the Kgosi passed away; may his soul roads which lead to Kubung and . rest in peace. Some of our issues are pending because there is no one to attend to them, so let us do something Let me also indicate to you Minister that we have about it as soon as possible. In conclusion, I commend interesting natural resources which we invite you to the Minister who presented this Motion and let me also come and see in Kumakwane. We need you to help us say, keep doing that, we will support you because you find strategies we can use to promote tourism in that are doing a great job. Thank you. area. We also have a very attractive site in Kolobeng where traditional doctors perform rituals. If we could MR SALESHANDO (MAUN WEST): Thank you Mr get assistance to turn that place in to a tourism site, the Speaker. I also thank the Minister for the report which people of Kumakwane could also offer assistance. he laid before us on behalf of other Ministries which fall under the same Thematic Working Group. I would also like to talk about the youth. On this issue Honourable Rakgare, we have to assemble and consult I represent a constituency where people have no choice them so that they can guide us instead of coming up with but to coexist with wild animals because they were policies that do not address what they really want. This born in that situation. This situation brings with it some will greatly assist us when drafting policies because we challenges which do not favour them. For example; will be able to target and address their needs accordingly. people who live with animals make insufficient profits

Hansard No198 1 Thursday 3rd September, 2020 SECTORAL DEBATE:CHAPTER 6 SUSTAINABLE ENVIRONMENT (Resumed Debate)

in terms of what an ordinary Motswana may produce ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LOCAL out of farming. Keeping cattle in Ngamiland is not as GOVERNMENT AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT profitable as keeping them in or SandVeld; in (MR MODUKANELE): Clarification. Thank you Central District. On the other hand, ploughing in these Leader... areas is a great challenge because these animals cause HONOURABLE MEMBER: Be quick. great damage. Their greatest concern is, even though they have this challenge, they are not able to at least MR MODUKANELE: …of the Opposition. I will be make sufficient profits as far as wildlife is concerned. quick Honourable. I just came and heard you saying that children walk around naked and so on. Is there a Tourism generates a lot of income in Botswana and social worker in that place? If they are there Honourable surprisingly, areas which generate more income through Member, are they aware of this situation or have you tourism are leading in terms of being poverty stricken. made them aware? Thank you Mr Speaker. It is not supposed to be like this. We are aware that these MR SALESHANDO: I am talking about poverty I animals do not solely belong to us but it is very painful witnessed firsthand and the point I am making cannot that we are number one on the list in terms of areas that be changed by a social worker. We are talking about a are severely affected by poverty in Botswana, even village close to a tourism destination but the poverty is though our area is rich in wildlife. extreme. Those people should not have to rely on the social worker, they should be able to benefit from the Ngamiland accommodates most of the rich people who tourism within their proximity. That is my point. visit this country for tourism. It has accommodated people like Prince Harry and others. I will give you an HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Applause!)… example of a village which you will visit because of MR SALESHANDO: Tourism; … tourism that is, if at all you have not yet visited it. There is a village called Xaxaba in Maun West Mr Speaker. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Further clarification Mr This village has severely been stricken by poverty to a Speaker. point whereby you will see children who are 10 years MR SALESHANDO: I am not yielding now. Still on and below, walking naked around the village. They are tourism, I do not see the issue of revenue leakages in not doing that because they have a choice but because of the Tourism Sector appearing in the Mid-Term Review absolute poverty. I know this is not a common practice (MTR) or the draft of Tourism Policy which is supposed in many areas that I have visited in Botswana but to be brought in Parliament. Countries which do not offer unfortunately, that is what happens in that area. That is tourism are benefiting more than Botswana in terms real poverty. Less than a kilometre from that village is of profit. When a tourist leaves America to Botswana, a five-star lodge facility, which is so fancy that you will he/she pays the money to an American company. He/ not believe that you are in Africa. I see no initiatives she books foreign flights, the tourist can even arrive in presented here to address the situation in the remaining Botswana without having booked a local flight or any years of National Development Plan (NDP) 11. mode of transport then enjoys our tourism and goes back home where there is a lot of money. Trusts; there are problems including community based trusts which the community should be using. We recently University of Botswana (UB) at Okavango once went around with the Tourism Committee meeting with conducted a research which revealed that these leakages these Trusts and they share the same concern regarding may be up to 70 per cent. In other words, for every how the Government treats them. They do not have P100.00 charged to a tourist visiting Botswana, only leases in land allocated to them, they have no say when P30.00 comes to Botswana; P70.00 remains at the it comes to private partnerships. In other words, they are foreign company. Those companies which enjoy the disempowered, they do not even know the terms and P70.00 do not face human-wildlife conflict, they do not conditions of the agreement of that partnership. feel the heat. Those subjected to the heat only get change from this Tourism levy. I am concerned because I do HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. not see anywhere the Minister deals with these revenue leakages. There are so many researches conducted some MR SALESHANDO: I will take the clarification. were even conducted by European Commission. Bank

Hansard No198 2 Thursday 3rd September, 2020 SECTORAL DEBATE:CHAPTER 6 SUSTAINABLE ENVIRONMENT (Resumed Debate)

of Botswana even wrote on their annual reports but was calling borampeetšhane (means people who have it does not seem to concern the Ministry of Tourism. nothing) is now friends with them so this law is never If we continue with this practice knowing that other going to be brought. There are rumours that the useless countries benefit more from our diamonds and copper, Economic Inclusion Law is going to be brought, they then continue to allow them to benefit from our tourism changed their minds about CEE. The reason there is by failing to draft a policy which will ensure that in the silence about this law is on those grounds and I assure remaining two or three years of NDP, a larger percentage you that even at Tourism, we are going to be told that of the tourism revenue will come to Botswana. I do not there is no CEE, but rather implementation of the accept the answer normally given that you can book Economic Inclusion Law, which has no weight. I know a travel agency anywhere. Many Batswana travel to where this is headed. other countries like China to buy clothes but there is no revenue transferred to Botswana. If you travel to South Salaries and conditions of service in the Tourism Sector; Africa for leisure, there is no money which is transferred conditions of service are still a problem because the to Botswana. This calls for a strong leadership in the Ministry of Employment, Labour Productivity and Skills Ministry of Tourism. Development is unable to access these other areas. It is a problem because they have not been working since Citizen participation; although we say we want to promote the first lockdown in Botswana because tourists were citizen participation and compare with the statistics, in not visiting Botswana; Europe was closed down, before most cases these are low value investments. We know Corona therefore they were still not working. So it is a that when we talk about high value investments, there problem when there is a delay to assist them, that to date are mostly at the hands of foreigners. In 2018, at Maun we are still saying we are assessing if we can give some Kgotla, President Masisi visited people of Ngamiland to wage subsidy in May, it is a problem in our region. inform them that they will partake in concessions. I said in 2018, two years down the line nothing has changed. I want to conclude with issues of mining and sanitation; You cannot keep giving the same answer every time you there is a village called Toteng where there is a company are asked what went wrong and put the blame on the called Khoemacau which is going to mine copper. I grew former. It is the same Botswana Democratic Party which up in a mining town which was mining copper and the was ruling then, is still is. I do not think you can take point I am driving towards is that Khoemacau and Toteng more than two years failing to bring a policy on citizen are a replica of BCL and Selebi Phikwe. Currently there participation in the Tourism Sector and concessions. is nothing the Government is undertaking to ensure that the mine is going to empower local companies. Right HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Applause!)… now at Selebi Phikwe, there is not even a single local company you can say was engaged by BCL, they are MR SALESHANDO: What we will not accept is all foreign companies from South Africa. There are that your silence means you are still plotting like you no efforts undertaken to ensure that this copper is not did at Banyana Farms; so that tomorrow if you issue exported in its raw form and to ensure that there are invitations to invest in concessions, when we find you products of copper manufactured in Botswana. 20 years queuing, you would argue that you are also Batswana from now at Khoemacau… and have the right. There is already a trail of how you govern but it will be totally unacceptable if you do that. HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Applause!)…

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Applause!)… MR SALESHANDO: At Khoemacau, we will have the same complaints as those at Selebi Phikwe. The mine MR SALESHANDO: It will be totally unacceptable will be closed, we will be left with earth tremors and if this silence means that you are plotting. Mr Speaker, empty holes. We will be in trouble. Those who richly you know when Parliament commenced, the President benefited from this mine will have gone back to their visited a lot of areas telling people that during the July countries. That is the governance of the Botswana Parliament he is sanctioning the Citizen Economic Democratic Party. Currently almost all subcontractors Empowerment (CEE) Act, it is now September; there at Khoemacau are companies from South Africa. is nothing. I can tell you now, if you did not hear Even right now if you read the employment contract Honourable Molale mentioning the CEE Act, it means Honourable Mpho Balopi, you will find that it is written they have changed. The same people the President that the operating law shall be the law of South Africa,

Hansard No198 3 Thursday 3rd September, 2020 SECTORAL DEBATE:CHAPTER 6 SUSTAINABLE ENVIRONMENT (Resumed Debate)

but the employment contract is in Botswana. Then that MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Honourable Members, I is supported by saying that the BDP is executing its now call upon the Honourable Minister of Environment, Manifesto. This Manifesto is terrible, if this is how you Natural Resources Conservation and Tourism to reply to are going to do things. the debate. Honourable Minister; 45 minutes.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Applause!)… MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENT, NATURAL RESOURCES CONSERVATION AND TOURISM MR SALESHANDO: On sanitation, since you talked (MS KERENG): I thank you Mr Speaker. Let me about sanitation Honourable Minister, at Maun we have take this opportunity Mr Speaker to thank you and the no dams or even a dam. We depend on water from rivers. Honourable Members for their contributions to this When they dry up, we depend on underground water. Thematic Working Group, Chapter 6 on Sustainable The number of pit latrines in Maun in Government Environment. I really wish we had more time to Ministries is shocking. Honourable Minister Molao, debate these issues because I can see there are a lot of you will find that 100 per cent of toilets in a school are contributions that have been coming through. pit latrines only. Some students have fallen into those pit latrines in the past. Even though you are talking about Mr Speaker, I will start off by appreciating the positive the Fourth Industrial Revolution (4IR) now, you still comments that came from the contributors, different depend on pit latrines. Do you see that as normal, that Honourable Members of Parliament who have Domkrag is doing the right thing? When you went to acknowledged our efforts. They talked about policies do an inspection, I tried to address this issue with the as we have been mentioning that we are formulating Minister of Local Government and Rural Development policies and different programmes in an effort to and he emphasized the issue that, we come a long way, improve our services and also to come up with new this is how we are progressing, we should not forget ways to create jobs locally. They also pointed out where we come from. Who can justify pit latrines in that this shows what the Government has promised 2020 if not a member of Domkrag? Batswana and it is evident that there is progress; we are talking about transformation. They also realised that this HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Applause!)… COVID-19 that has affected us, we did not sit back and say it is difficult we give up, COVID-19 has messed up MR SALESHANDO: I am addressing this issue in our plans. It shows that we see hope and light in future relation to the issue of water because there is evidence and we have paved a way and it is evident that some that pit latrines contaminate underground water. Now things have already been fulfilled. Also as it is evident in we are depending on pit latrines that contaminate the the tourism sector which has been greatly affected, we water that we will depend on for drinking in future. have clearly outlined our relief programmes.

Lastly the issue of solar power. Honourable Minister Mr Speaker, I have divided my answers or responses Kereng, I am not saying this in a bad way, we come a according to how they were addressed by the Honourable long way addressing this issue and you have kept on Members. There is the issue of land. In regards to it, saying no, but we have vast amounts of sunlight that you asked how come a small number of people in is more than what many countries have and we are Botswana or the world have captured or have enormous not doing anything. I am surprised that now since you plots, which they have had for a long time, whereas seem like you want to do something, you are setting a lot of people do not have land. I believe that when yourselves a low target. You said in 2030; in 10 years’ the Honourable Minister of Land Management, Water time, your hope is that at least 15 per cent of the power and Sanitation Services presented another chapter, he or electricity we are using should be from the sun. What pointed out that their intention is to try and make land is impossible that we cannot say we want 50 per cent? reforms so that Batswana can be able to own land and I Other countries have managed to get from zero to 50 per believe that he will lead us in explaining how that will cent in less than 10 years, you can just see that this is happen. laziness. When you are told to set yourself a target, you say in ten years’ time I want to reach 15 per cent, this Let me point out that in the Ministry, I said there are plots Manifesto was made to fail. Thank you. or places, because the complainant or the Honourable Member of Parliament showed that plots that are in HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Applause!)… urban areas, game ranches, and tourism areas seem to be

4 Hansard No 198 Thursday 3rd September, 2020 SECTORAL DEBATE:CHAPTER 6 SUSTAINABLE ENVIRONMENT (Resumed Debate)

owned by a few number of people. Let me point out that MS KERENG: It will be a programme that is similar to when we looked into how we could include Batswana to Ipelegeng but way better than Ipelegeng. They are going own valuable land, which they can earn a living from, I to guard these rivers and where there is sand mining. indicated that we will ensure that two forest reserves, 10 Let me also include the one of policing against people heritage sites that have already been allocated and five who dump rubbish into people’s plots, those who mine concessions end up in the hands of Batswana according pit sand and those who dump rubbish in the fields that to our plan. we are going to police against them. We are going to employ ourselves. Government will be assisting the There was also another one that we should try to local people, they will be paid, and we are collaborating improve the procedure of allocation and management with the programme by Honourable Molale of Local of land, which you will find that services are at another Economic Development, through which we will be Ministry and others are at another sector, maybe we hiring people to take care of their things. should try to improve them. I believe that Honourable Ministers have them under control. The land bank is The important thing here is that there will be penalties also an issue of concern. It should be reviewed and I or relevant punishment. We cannot just say there is a believe that the relevant Ministry responded to the issue person who mined sand and we rebuked and forgave of the land bank. him, so police officers also need to rebuke him so that we can go. We want to instil discipline here, because There was an issue that we should try to speed up when we look at our environment, it is untidy and that allocation of land. I believe that is an important thing is not okay. that was also addressed. Let me talk about the issue of taking care of the HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification! environment; waste management. We are saying this MS KERENG: I will get back to you. Let us get to because we cannot keep on dealing with this much waste, environmental management. Honourable Members we should see the opportunity of starting businesses, to said they are thankful that as we are improving the make profit, or to generate income from waste. We can Environmental Impact Assessment (EIA) now, it is going talk about recycling of materials and recycling of water. to assist in reducing costs and time we take to assist those We should purify or use this polluted water and be able who need assistance with advice to run the environment to use it for crop production. programme, so that businesses can be successful. We Let me point out that, I stated in my presentation that are talking about Strategic Environmental Assessment we will be looking at landfills at dumping sites. We will in which we are moving forward to make the National demarcate some plots there so that our youth would get Strategic Environment Assessment, which in future will some there; those who do recycling; for papers, plastics, be focusing on the whole of Botswana that in relation to tyre furniture, and things that are used to decorate that the environment, when a project comes, it will find that are sold. The Government should buy them in a state we have already completed everything concerning the that is of high quality enough to be used. We assist them environment. That will reduce the loss of money and such that in the end, they would be able to sell these time. things; even sell them outside the country. I can talk You talked about illegal sand mining Honourable about biogas; the use of dung and waste coming from Members, we can see that our rivers are now being homes. I saw a certain project in Block 5 where they destroyed. There are rivers which do not have sand take the refuse that we dispose of, from the kitchen, anymore. When we talk of illegal sand mining, I was porridge, potato peels, and they make biogas. This gas is looking at it considering the fact that we are in talks taken to the lands and one can use it to illuminate. These and we already have plans to try and control illegal sand are things that we shall encourage Batswana to do. mining. You Honourable Member explained that you We are not just looking at big biogas plants or big want sand to be available for the locals first and those renewable energy plants that we will be operating at programmes will help. What this Ministry intends to do national scale, even you at home, we want you to grind is to allow locals to control illegal sand mining and they the waste and produce valuable things from it. Still on should be the guards and caretakers… that note, there is a Waste Management Policy that we HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Applause!)… shall be using. I thank you.

Hansard No198 5 Thursday 3rd September, 2020 SECTORAL DEBATE:CHAPTER 6 SUSTAINABLE ENVIRONMENT (Resumed Debate)

HIS HONOUR THE VICE PRESIDENT (MR MR LESASO: On a point of elucidation. Mr Speaker, I TSOGWANE): Elucidation Mr Speaker. Thank you thank you. Honourable Minister, I understand what you Honourable Minister for your presentation, and the are saying regarding waste management. I understand way you are responding to the Honourable Members’ you want to assist the youth by demarcating some concerns. You are trying to show us how your ministry plots for them at the landfill site so that they would do is doing its job robustly. You are advocating for a safe something for themselves. I believe you can start this at environment that takes care of the poor more. Just touch collection. There should be a provision for the youth to on this one Honourable Minister, like you were saying, collect, separate waste before it goes to the landfill site, something which affects the environment is when and giving them the jobs to transport. Transportation is people look for what they could use for energy, but we part of the benefit they can be part of to create jobs for do have coal. Have you noticed that mostly Government themselves. That is to say, separation, collection and institutions are the ones that pollute the environment? transportation should be part of some of the jobs they If those institutions in the rural areas fetch firewood, can get and even up to the end at the landfill, so that they together with those who do not have much to buy gas benefit. I mean, we should not just look at it at the final or electricity; if we have so much coal, could you make stage, we should start at collection. a plan that we should use it to produce energy, heating or cooking? If you could collaborate with the Ministry MS KERENG: Yes, you are on the right track. It shows of Mineral Resources, Green Technology and Energy you understand what I am saying indeed. The truth is Security, I think this would assist regarding things that that in everything that we are talking about, there is are affecting the environment in constituencies like what we call a value chain, where we are going to start mine, it would really help. I just wanted to say you the process, and where we are going to complete it. should note this one too. Ensuring that at every point there is income generation; at the end of the day, what is produced should be of good Regarding sand, as they cluster themselves; you have quality. a Community-Based Natural Resource Management (CBNRM) programme that I believe will assist in terms Separation of waste, especially in institutions; the Waste of preserving and taking care of these things in our Management Policy which we are talking about says environment which people can make a livelihood from. we should separate waste. We should collect waste and When they make use of them, they should go through separate it properly; someone will collect that knowing these organisations. I thank you. exactly where it is supposed to go. They would follow MS KERENG: I thank you. Yes, you are really protocols of where certain waste should be taken, and following. What we are saying is that we should use the they would know what should happen when they get resources that we have to the maximum. We should use there, the remains would be disposed of in what way, them fully such that they would assist us to take care and it would mean somewhere there a business booms, of the environment, to preserve lives and to bring in then we progress. I am not sure if Honourable Manake revenue. Mr Speaker, I believe… wants to comment right now. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Elucidation. ASSISTANT MINISTER OF AGRICULTURAL DEVELOPMENT AND FOOD SECURITY (MS MS KERENG: Let me finish the sentence. I believe MANAKE): Elucidation. Thank you Honourable coal can work. As you were saying that we should Member. I think it is almost the same as what Honourable collaborate with the Ministry of Mineral Resources, Lesaso said, that do not forget the separation from Green Technology and Energy Security, they could source. Waste should be sorted for recycling purposes. assist. Let me point out that it is in line with our objectives At the Ministry of Agricultural Development and Food that we should apply the Fourth Industrial Revolution Security, we want packaging material. When you look at (4IR), that we should come up with technology. When newspapers and other papers, they could be done locally talking about using coal in institutions and in homes, using the many papers that we produce in Parliament. it is important that there should be an appropriate Separation from source; please do not forget to talk technology. That very point goes back to research, to much about it. Thank you. Honourable Dr Letsholathebe’s ministry to come up with innovations around technologies that could assist MS KERENG: You are right on track Honourable us to use these things. Members. I wanted Honourable Lesaso to chip in so

6 Hansard No 198 Thursday 3rd September, 2020 SECTORAL DEBATE:CHAPTER 6 SUSTAINABLE ENVIRONMENT (Resumed Debate)

that I would show him that we are together in these Batswana have to be taught what we mean when we programmes, and they are going to assist us. Actually, say climate change; how it affects them and how they we are collaborating well in terms of governance. can survive the ramifications of climate change, as we have shown that it affects water and land. Climate Let me now talk about water and sanitation services; it change affects health because there can be an outbreak was explained that when we keep saying Batswana need of different diseases. It can change the environment water to drink, water is sourced from underground. We giving rise to droughts and floods which can damage should ensure that we do not tamper in any way with the land. These are the things that Batswana have to be underground environment. Someone pointed out that aware of. One other important thing that they have to earth tremors and earthquakes could be caused by the know is that if there is climate change, and it affects the fact that when we get a lot of water from underground, amount of rainfall and the rainfall season, they have to in future it might interfere with the underground aquifer. know what they can do as farmers. We will be focusing Let me also point out that the Water Security Strategy on extensively educating farmers so that they can know shows that there would be procedures as to how the different farming methods that they can adopt, the underground water would be harvested; how it should be type of crops to plough as well as the suitable season. preserved. Underground water resources is on page 18 Honourable Manake is stressing the issue of climate of the report I presented yesterday. There are instances smart agriculture which will be responsive, which can whereby even when we get this underground water, it address and or prevent climate change. would not be in a position to be consumed because it ASSISTANT MINISTER OF AGRICULTURAL would be extremely saline. I even thought of a project DEVELOPMENT AND FOOD SECURITY (MS in Zutshwa of water desalination. The salt would be MANAKE): Elucidation Mr Speaker. You are on the sold and water would be used. We would still be in that right track Minister. I thought I should talk about the process of ensuring that our economy is sustained by sewage issue, areas like Masunga do not have sewage our resources. Considering the fact that that project systems but if there was a proper sewage system there, could be extended to other places with saline water. If water could be purified and it was going to be used to there is water with too much salt, it could help Batswana form wetlands for cluster farming. It was also going to to get involved in such projects, they should purify it reduce effects of climate change; unreliable and little and drink it, and be able to sell the salt. rainfall. Even areas like which already has a MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS AND large population, there is need for a sewage system that COOPERATION (DR KWAPE): Elucidation Mr can be used to collect waste water to purify it so that it Speaker. I thank you Honourable Minister. I appreciate can be used again in agriculture. Thank you Minister. the way you have been responding to the water issue. MS KERENG: Thank you very much Honourable As Honourable Saleshando was saying, unfortunately Manake. You should always pay attention to Honourable we do not have enough water. Since we are not that Manake’s deliberations… advanced or developed, it can be polluted. I just wanted to say we should not close the boreholes that have HONOURABLE MEMBER: Elucidation Mr Speaker. polluted water; instead we should use this water in a manner that could benefit us. For example, in Kanye, we MS KERENG: No, I do not have time, you want to should instead use that underground water to build our cause chaos. You are now presenting. When Honourable houses and water crops in our backyards and produce Manake talks about climate smart agriculture, you our own food. Honourable Minister, consider this for should listen attentively. places that already have polluted water. I wanted to point out that as our intentions are to ensure MS KERENG: I thank you. Water is very critical and that everything that happens should have an opportunity we need it. The way we produce it, where we source to develop the economy, we are talking about it from has to be paid attention to so that we do not opportunities that can be found in climate change, that harm the environment. Let me now talk about climate if there is soil erosion and there is need to bring back change; the Honourable Members responded to climate that land back to useable condition, communities should change, that it is a crisis. It is a global crisis, and it is use such opportunities in ensuring that land goes back to also a challenge in our own country. It has shown that how it was before and they can do so by planting trees.

Hansard No198 7 Thursday 3rd September, 2020 SECTORAL DEBATE:CHAPTER 6 SUSTAINABLE ENVIRONMENT (Resumed Debate)

My presentation indicated that we are still left behind MS KERENG: Human-wildlife conflict; this issue has when it comes to growing trees and that we should take been raised time and again in the form of questions and part in planting trees. The way this issue was addressed, complaints and it was also mentioned yesterday, the I agree with Honourable Nkawana when he said that Honourable Members asked what could be the cause. Batswana have to be extensively educated. We are also Is it because the population of people and wildlife is intending to educate them about the repercussions of rapidly increasing? If yes, what can be done? Let burning trees at the lands and burning waste at their me point out that due to climate change, there is no homes. Our plan is also to teach business people about abundance of water where these animals can drink climate change; how their businesses can pollute the hence they end up going to peoples’ homes in search for environment in general, the environmental damage that water and food. Honourable Members pointed out that is caused by the smoke from their business, how the people also invade animals’ habitats but let me point out machines that they use can damage the environment and that I sometimes answer that the Elephant Management what they can do to mitigate that. Plan and Human-wildlife Conflict Strategy are going to show us how to live peacefully with wildlife. The I talked about Drought Management Strategy, that this important thing is to conserve them so that they can is the strategy that we are going to use to help farmers also generate income for us through hunting, attracting during drought seasons. The other important thing is to tourists through wildlife as we pointed out that we can make sure that weather forecast reach Batswana well use them at the lands. in time wherever they will be. When you are at remote areas like Xaxaba, you should be updated about when to Our other initiative is to go and drill boreholes which expect rainfall, the amount of rainfall that is expected as will supply wildlife with water far away from people well as whether you are advised to plough immediately and increase workers and train personnel so that if it or not. Weather forecast is information which is happens that we are attacked by a lion or elephants, localised and decentralised so that Batswana can be up the officer does not come all the way from to to date. There are researches that we are doing, we have started some which have helped us to draft the National Hukuntsi because it will take a long time. The ministry Adaptation Framework which will ensure that people is going to reinforce workers… know how they can protect themselves against climate HIS HONOUR THE VICE PRESIDENT (MR change, looking at health issues, agriculture, land use TSOGWANE): Elucidation Mr Speaker. While on and other areas. Let me point out that tree planting is the issue of human-wildlife conflict, the problem with something that we should practice. I want to stress one constituencies like Boteti as you pointed out in your important point that in Gaborone, our ministry has a presentation…let me help you to clarify that you did a lot tree nursery opposite River Walk. This is a place where of consultation in order to make sure that Makgadikgadi people buy trees and we are going to empower the nation fence which has not succeeded for the longest time, through tree planting in that area, while developing it. which was not implemented by your predecessors is We are devising other programmes which deals with finally considered. You came and consulted and pushed environmental conservation, tourism and recreation. so that we can be in a position to erect that fence. Let me You should go there and relax while still learning about also enlighten you that on the issue of human-wildlife tree planting. conflict, we once approved a budget for that situation. Your predecessors promised Khumaga community that Different projects that are going to be carried out a bridge is going to be constructed for them using funds in schools, which are done by Non-Governmental which help people who live in areas where there is Organisations (NGOs) at different ministries, we are wildlife, so confirm if you will go and investigate if that going to be doing them. Early warning systems, where project is going to be implemented and also ask where we will be able to alert the nation that floods are coming those funds are. That is the consultation that you have and when we do so, they should understand that we done with those people and it is one thing that can calm are not only making them aware of the heavy rains but the conflict between people and wildlife. Minister, I rather they are informed so as to know how they can thought that I should assist you there because people are prepare for that situation well in time. waiting for that kind of assistance, to try and account HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Interruptions!)… for the conflict between people and wildlife. Thank you.

8 Hansard No 198 Thursday 3rd September, 2020 SECTORAL DEBATE:CHAPTER 6 SUSTAINABLE ENVIRONMENT (Resumed Debate)

MS KERENG: I wish to say amen, Leader of the policies we have made and those that we are yet to do House. Honourable Members, we respect consultation and programmes which we are still crafting to conserve at this ministry. Like I responded to Honourable Dr the environment. I said that sustainable development is Tshabang yesterday, there was consultation on Monday, conserving the environment to benefit us without being the ministry was consulting with leaders of the village; depleted and leaving it for the coming generations. That Village Development Committee (VDC), Kgosi and is what we are doing with our conservation and it is very other significant people to see how we can handle the important to emphasise that for people to conserve their situation in which elephants are causing damages. I only natural resources, they have to be benefitting something saw plans and I only received the report which indicates from them, not where we are saying if elephants have the strategy that can be adopted by the Government crossed over to Zambia, we should leave them there. and what we can do in collaboration. When we notice Hey! We need them because we want… challenges and we start saying that people are lazy, pointing fingers, it shows that we are not serious. For MINISTER OF INVESTMENT, TRADE AND us to see that we are serious, we are going to sit down INDUSTRY (MS SERAME): Elucidation. Thank and share ideas relating to these issues. When I visit the you Mr Speaker, thank you Honourable Kereng. You constituency, you should make sure that we help each were raising a very important point that sustainable other so that consultation can be a success. Honourable, development means that people should benefit from the consultation is still ongoing, but what we have noticed minerals or natural resources. The important thing as I is that it is working for us and we are still going to was listening to you is that, as you are making laws, go and discuss this issues in order to assist our fellow regulations and articles, they should also be included, countrymen. consult them. In that same respect, it is important that as we make economic empowerment law, we should I talked about the Elephant Management Plan and I consult people. I want to explain that citizen economic pointed out that we are going to involve Batswana in empowerment is not something new. We have been our services which deal with preventing the conflict doing it all these years with different programmes and the between wildlife and people so that they can help us to policy was also there. We started consultations because manage the situation. We should not always see wildlife it is important that when you do something for people, officers and or public servants coming over, people in they should also be involved. We started consultations the community have to know what they can do as well to make the law. While still consulting, there arose as what their role is, and they should be educated so that challenges that we are facing right now which disrupted they understand how each animal can be controlled. They the process of consultation. This meant that our pace to should erect fences which control wildlife as a way to come up with citizen economic empowerment slowed generate income or to create employment opportunities. down because we had to observe social distancing and They should be able to use technology which will physical distancing. help us to deal with that issue, working together with NGOs. We are also going to use Batswana to help with One important thing as I will be sitting down is that, we assessment and reports, they should go to those whose once did economic empowerment, but did we empower property has been damaged and compile reports for us the right people? It is important that when you come up instead of waiting for the department to carry out an with a law, you do not come up with a law which will assessment, compile reports and do other things. When only please people because it is written citizen economic these assessments are carried out by locals, it will show empowerment. It should be a law that was discussed that even though there are challenges, we want to solve with people and it should serve the purpose of benefiting them; the participation of locals in solving problems those who are deserving. You have to be inclusive in that affect them. that law. I confirm to this House that since it is important that you are inclusive and consult widely, we made a Moving on to environmental conservation in general, we decision that this law will come in November, to allow were cautioned to conserve our natural resources so that even Members of Parliament to take the draft Bill and tomorrow our children should not ask us how come wild consult at constituencies. Thank you Mr Speaker. animals are depleted when you were working at Wildlife Honourable Nkawana. However, there should be MS KERENG: If when we talk about inclusive evidence that we have conserved them. I have specified development, and we show that we are also involved,

Hansard No198 9 Thursday 3rd September, 2020 SECTORAL DEBATE:CHAPTER 6 SUSTAINABLE ENVIRONMENT (Resumed Debate)

we consult widely and include everyone and you find Someone talked about some people who capture animals yourself outside and you come here and tell us that these at some place called Chobe Bushbuck, and they have a things do not work, you should know that, that will be sanctuary there. I do not know if they have done things beyond laziness. properly or not, we will go and check.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Applause!)… We talked about improving species management. I want to indicate that we are strengthening our research MS KERENG: I was still talking about conservation of department and research around biodiversity. What the environment, that we will do it in such a way that it species do we have? Where are they? How many are is sustainable and we also benefit from it. Do not look at they? How can they generate income? How are they me like that Honourable Member… managed?

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS MS KERENG: Moving on to poaching, I want to AND COOPERATION (DR KWAPE): Elucidation. indicate that…no I do not have time, wait. I have You are debating very well Honourable Minister since reserved a slot that you wanted now you want the second you are responsible for ensuring that we conserve the one. On poaching, I want to point out that one thing we environment. Yesterday, we heard a lot about using solar have observed in an effort to fight poaching is, it seems and even Honourable Saleshando talked about how the community involvement is still low. People have we are supposed to use solar. While you are planning not been empowered and taught on the importance of with Honourable Lefoko Moagi, you should connect taking the responsibility of leading or being key players electricity in villages so that when we are now able to in fighting poaching. generate electricity using solar, we should be able to connect it so that Batswana can sell electricity. Villages HONOURABLE MEMBER: Elucidation. in my constituency such as Tsonyane and Gamae which have solar already available, it should be connected to MS KERENG: Let me finish first to say, it is also the electricity that we are currently using so that when important to improve technology or technological we now generate for ourselves in excess, we should be services to assist us to fight from above and catch those able to convert it back. I am talking about Gamae, near people. Intelligence; where we can deduce their prints Lotlhakane East Madam. and the tricks that they are using and working with other MS KERENG: That is true. When you are a countries that if they note criminal activities in their representative of an area or constituency, you profoundly countries, they should know how it got there. understand ways to improve service delivery, we On empowering our ministry, we have already started welcome that. I believe that you will also consult that plans of strengthening the Department of Wildlife to be side and bring us ideas which can take our people able to fight poaching. Empowering a department is not forward. all about arming them with weapons to go and fight. We There were issues of roads and services. The Nata-Maun are talking about ensuring that they have good working road is used by the majority of tourists when they go to conditions, they are comfortable, they know the terms Ngamiland and Chobe and therefore it should be looked of their service and termination of service. We have to in to. I believe the Honourable Minister of Transport has work on a number of conditions so that when we give noted that. There was another point that if we want to them weapons, their working conditions are perfect, that develop farms, we can include wild animals so that there is when a lot of things will work. Even teaching people is value addition in farms; tourism in farms. It is then that animals are important and beneficial so that we do important that services be availed; water, electricity and not find that they are now the ones assisting poachers. roads. I believe that these things are related. That is why There was an issue raised about opening gates at Ngoma you see the Ministry of Transport and Communications at certain times. I want to say that the hours that would and the Ministry of Water under our Thematic Working have been set aside to open a park gate and the time Group because we cannot manage some things if they it closes are important for people’s protection, animals are not involved or when they do not help us to facilitate. and the environment. Maybe if we are to review it, we It is similar to the issue on tourism and airports, they will start looking in that direction. are facilities which are related with the tourism that we

10 Hansard No 198 Thursday 3rd September, 2020 SECTORAL DEBATE:CHAPTER 6 SUSTAINABLE ENVIRONMENT (Resumed Debate)

want to develop. These are things that we are working and other natural resources with proper equipment and on as a ministry. I want to…Mr Speaker, this one needed resources so that they can do serious businesses of more time, I yield. certain standards. These things will be able to add what is known as value addition to their products and if that ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LOCAL happens, these products will be in a position whereby GOVERNMENT AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT tourists from certain countries will be able to buy them. (MR MODUKANELE): Elucidation. Thank you The beauty products like earrings and other things Honourable Kereng, I will not take much of your time. which women wear to beatify themselves. Thank you Mr Speaker. Minister, you raised an issue on Community Based Natural Resource Management The most important thing to do is to empower capacity (CBNRM), maybe you can expand on it to show that building or capacity strengthening of CBNRM when we talk about local economic empowerment or component. If we can do that, it will be able to help development, we are talking about certain examples. people in terms of forming Trusts which will in return As you mentioned that you are going to transform it, ensure that they open good businesses which can be there should be employer of choice for the youth in the marketed in other countries through your assistance communities like ours. We have Lerala, where women Honourable Serame. How will you feel if you visit a come together to use morula for different things. hotel and find that actually, the soap that you are using Tswapong in general, we also have Malaka where they was produced by our children using morula oil? How use mmupudu and so on. All these things can help us does it feel to find out that this sengaparile which we to achieve what we have written in our Manifesto as are buying today, which is from Phuduhudu or Inalegolo the Botswana Democratic Party (BDP) in terms of and was produced by our children, instead of ensuring job creation. When we talk about job creation, people that they have been patented by big foreign companies usually think we are referring to those who live in because we have not protected their businesses? I am towns. But the truth of the matter is, most of our people saying this because we are not assisting them in terms are living in those areas Minister. This is a welcome of marketing which will enable them to export these development which you can expand Honourable so that products ...(interruptions)... we have to assist them so it can dovetail with their manifesto at the end of the day that they can... it. Thank you Mr Speaker. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Elucidation. HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Applause!)… MS KERENG: Honourable Members, allow me to MS KERENG: Thank you Mr Speaker. Hey! I can see conclude my presentation because the next one is also that Honourable Members cannot wait to discuss my going to require more time. presentation on Community-Based Natural Resource Let me discuss the last issue which talks about tourism, Management (CBNRM) but we really need more time. agro-tourism, game farming and all of that. I appreciate Thank you Honourable Members. My intention was to conclude my debate with it. One of the conservation the Honourable Members because they agree with us on methods which we intend to do which also generates the basis that there is a need to expand tourism so that income, our CBRNM programme will be focusing on it can cover other things which were not included in it. opening industries or businesses through our natural It should be introduced in areas which did not practice resource products. Some of them include; morula oil, tourism so that Batswana can be involved in tourism morula jam, ointments, arts and crafts and other different businesses. Let me highlight that I have indicated in natural resource products which we believe can be used different statements which I have made before that to generate income. this programme is an ongoing progress. We talked The important thing is; I visited these people last week about domestic tourism which was mentioned by the in order to find out what they are really doing and how Honourable Members who responded yesterday that we they can be assisted in relation to this programme so have to consider the fact that if Batswana want to enjoy that they can be empowered to do a serious business. I tourism in their country, perhaps we must ensure that found out that they dig sengaparile with their own hands they do not pay the same amount which is usually paid and dry it on the soil. So we are going to assist people by tourists. This issue is being discussed with those who who do these kind of businesses; those who use morula run those kind of businesses.

Hansard No198 11 Thursday 3rd September, 2020 SECTORAL DEBATE:CHAPTER 6 SUSTAINABLE ENVIRONMENT (Resumed Debate)

Last time when COVID-19 pandemic started, we the other hand, the nursery has already started operating realised that there are some people who run these kind on roads; we are going to build hotels there, different of businesses at the delta, they gave low prices which businesses and art centres. That is, we are going to people were able to afford. Some of Batswana who run many things which are going to market Botswana. visited these areas were impressed even though there Botswana or Gaborone will become the destination of were some who were still complaining about these choice. As we are doing this, you have to go and carry prices. The truth of the matter is; price reduction is made out consultations in your Constituencies as some of you looking at some things... Honourable Members have been indicating that you have caves and streams there. Come back to us when ASSISTANT MINISTER OF INVESTMENT, you are done so that we can assist one another because TRADE AND INDUSTRY (MR MOLEBATSI): Point it will enable you to be part of this transformation. it of elucidation. Thank you Minister. You are on point will also assist us in terms of spreading tourism across Minister. You have talked about promoting tourism and the country, including areas like Kgalagadi. We are also it is our mandate as BDP. We saw that an expression of going to expand in terms of art and culture, cultural interest was advertised at Mmadinare yesterday which tourism, religious tourism, sports tourism and many invited people to submit their proposals which indicates other areas and let me highlight that these things require what they intend to do with those dams, that delta. We us to do them for ourselves instead of expecting other appreciate that sir. We are delivering our promises to people to do them for us. Batswana just as we have promised. Thank you. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Elucidation. MS KERENG: Thank you. That is true. Complaints have been raised on the basis that we are not delivering MS KERENG: Pardon me for half a minute because I our promises but fortunately, you can see that we are am wrapping up Honourable. delivering. We thank you, sir. You are the one who MINISTER OF YOUTH EMPOWERMENT, dragged me to your constituency so that I can see these SPORT AND CULTURE DEVELOPMENT (MR things. Moreover, when we were at Selebi Phikwe at the RAKGARE): Point of elucidation. Thank you very workshop, you took me to Mmadinare and mentioned much Mr Speaker. Honourable Member, I will not that you need these things to be transformed. We also waste your time. My point is, the issue of tourism must attended a meeting together where we addressed the be wrapped up properly. Leader of the Opposition villagers and I also came back in order to find that which mentioned that His Excellency promised the people of can be transformed. So, that transformation is taking Ngamiland that concessions will be given to Batswana place right now. So, we advise people to take advantage in 2018 but it never happened. I can confidently tell you of the opportunities that they have because we are here that in 2018 September, a concession was given to a to offer assistance, just come and talk to us so that we youth Trust in Okavango. This is one of the issues which can find what we can initiate in your constituency. I was the Honourable Member usually raises and we discard about to discuss the issue of dams in details... because they are not truthful. So, explain it to Batswana. HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Elucidation. MS KERENG: It will be better if these issues are MS KERENG: Hold on Honourable Members. Let me raised by those who have witnessed them so that they conclude with the issue of dams. We are now covering can assist us. So, we will be expanding tourism in that dams as a way of expanding tourism. Honourable manner and we must understand that every village or Molebatsi has mentioned that we already have Constituency is a cultural centre on its own. So, it is expression of interest at Mmadinare. Batswana will go necessary for these cultural villages to partake across there in order to develop dams for tourism and they will the country so that Batswana can enjoy their country by be very busy. It is the same thing in Gaborone. We have running these businesses. Let me also highlight that the started developing our museum and we have already museum project is being done by youth companies as a started the process of ground breaking so that we can consortium. start our building project. This museum is going to be I therefore Mr Speaker, move that the Sustainable the hub of Botswana; it will be displaying everything Sectoral Chapter be approved and stand part of the Mid- that has anything to do with the history of Botswana. We Term Review of the National Development Plan 11. I so will do the same thing with Gaborone Game Reserve. On move and thank you Mr Speaker.

12 Hansard No 198 Thursday 3rd September, 2020 SECTORAL DEBATE:CHAPTER 6 SUSTAINABLE ENVIRONMENT (Resumed Debate)

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Applause!)... and Economic Development, Transformative Strategic Thrusts and the Economic Recovery and Transformation MR SPEAKER: Thank you Honourable Minister. Plan, Africa Agenda 2063 as well as Sustainable Question put and agreed to. Development Goals (SDGs). Although the full effects of COVID-19 and its future implications are still evolving, HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Applause!)… particular attention has been paid to the impact of the pandemic so far to inform the TWG’s proposed plan. APPROVAL OF THE MID-TERM REVIEW OF Mr Speaker, the desired outcomes under the Governance, NATIONAL DEVELOPMENT PLAN 11: Peace and Security thematic area depend on how well 2017/2018 – 2022/2023 Botswana will consolidate good governance as well as strengthen her national security which are the two SECTORAL DEBATE national priorities under this TWG. According to the International Institute for Democracy and Electoral CHAPTER 7 Assistance (IDEA), which is an inter-governmental GOVERNANCE, PEACE AND organisation on strengthening democratic institutions SECURITY and processes, good governance is anchored on democratic principles of “popular control over public MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Honourable Members. decision making and decision makers”, which also entail We are starting a sectoral discussion of the National “equality of respect and voice between citizens in the Development Plan 11 2017/2018 - 2022/2023 with exercise of that control”. In this regard, the Governance, Chapter 7 being Governance, Peace and Security. The Peace and Security (GPS) primary outcomes expected lead Ministry for this Chapter is the Minister of Defence, to be achieved are as follows: Justice and Security. Please note that 2 hours 25 minutes has been allocated for presentations. • Good Governance; which includes participatory democracy, transparency and accountability as well MINISTRY OF DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND as the rule of law. SECURITY • National security; which encompasses territorial MINISTER OF DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND integrity and sovereignty as well as public safety and SECURITY (MR MMUSI): Thank you Mr Speaker. protection. On the programme it was saying 30 minutes, I see here Mr Speaker, all these are some of the critical conditions they have only put 20 minutes. for Botswana to become the land of peace, freedom and HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… progressive governance, where corruption and crime in all forms are not tolerated by ensuring transparency and MR MMUSI: They will correct. Thank you Mr accountability across all sectors. The Judicial system Speaker. Mr Speaker, I have the honour to present to should also be accessible and efficient, allowing for full this Honourable House, the Governance, Peace and enjoyment of rights as guaranteed in the Constitution. Security (GPS) Thematic Working Group (TWG) In pursuit of participatory democracy, a bottom-up proposed contribution for the Mid-Term Review of development approach driven by decentralisation, National Development Plan (NDP) 11. This TWG like Bogosi and the Kgotla system will remain pivotal in others, is constituted by various members from the maintaining social order, national unity and social public sector, private sector, civil society and other non- cohesion. The country’s dual legal system and full state actors. Collaborative partnership and inclusiveness compliance with the Constitution have gone a long will continue to be strengthened as we move forward way in ensuring that justice is served across all levels with our national development agenda envisaged under in society. Vision 2036. Mr Speaker, I wish to posit that, good Governance, Peace In reviewing the sector, the TWG was cognisant of and Security remain the pillar upon which achievement Government priorities as articulated in the Macro- of our national aspirations are anchored. As a country, Economic Outline presented by the Minister of Finance we place high premium on human security and will

Hansard No198 13 Thursday 3rd September, 2020 SECTORAL DEBATE:CHAPTER 6 SUSTAINABLE ENVIRONMENT (Resumed Debate)

continue to facilitate human-centred development. We disposal rates, a number of reform initiatives continue want to lead a society in which people are free from to be implemented. These include additional mobile fear, free from gender-based violence, free from hunger courts, specialized courts, revision of High Court and and lead livelihoods that are dignified and secure. The Industrial Court rules, introduction of a Judicial Case COVID-19 pandemic, among other things, exposed Management System and court annexed mediation for our vulnerability in important aspect of our lives, the Industrial Court; all of which continue to improve including personal, health and food security. We fully efficiency, delivery and integrity of the Judicial system acknowledge that without good governance, political based on the Rule of Law. The rule of law guarantees stability and peace we will not achieve sustainable equality before the law and ensures that those who economic development, equitable distribution of wealth, govern are restrained to encroach on the lives of people social upliftment, human and social development, as and guards against abuse of power. In terms of the well as sustainable environment envisioned in Vision World Justice Project (WJP) 2020 ratings on the Rule 2036, Sustainable Development Goals and the Africa of Law, Botswana ranked 43rd out of 128 countries and Agenda 2063, to name but a few. fourth out of 31 countries in the Sub-Saharan Region. This is an improvement by one place compared to 2019 Mr Speaker, I would now like to give a general overview when the country ranked 44th out of 128 countries. The of the performance and challenges encountered during World Justice Project (WJP) Index measures, among the first half of NDP 11 and proposed policies and other factors; constraint on Government power, open strategies for the remaining period. Government, absence of corruption, order and security, GOOD GOVERNANCE civil justice and criminal justice.

ACHIEVEMENTS DURING THE FIRST HALF Mr Speaker, there has been progress with regard OF NDP 11 to strengthening of the legal framework. Botswana continues to review its laws to align them with Mr Speaker, as I have already indicated, good governance international standards. To this end, a number of as a philosophy and practice, enables nations, Botswana included, to craft and implement quality policies statutes were enacted, reviewed, amended and passed and programmes that result in sustainable national through Parliament, including the Trade Disputes Act development. In line with the revised Southern African Amendment (No.6 of 2016), Cybercrime and Computer Development Community (SADC) principles and Related Crimes Act (No. 18 of 2018), Proceeds and guidelines governing democratic elections (2015), we Instruments of Crime Act Amendment (No.8 of 2018), Botswana conducted credible, transparent, peaceful, free Declaration of Assets and Liabilities Act (No. 12 of and fair elections in October 2019 towards improving 2019) and Counter Terrorism Act (No.9 of 2018). participatory democracy. Furthermore, in our pursuit of strengthening Mr Speaker, participatory democracy is an accountability and service excellence, the foundation of institutionalised process and goes beyond the holding the National Monitoring and Evaluation System (NMES) of regular elections to include the enjoyment of was laid in the first half of National Development Plan socio-cultural and economic rights as equal citizens. (NDP) 11. These included development of tools and Consultation continues to be central to this country’s guidelines for monitoring and evaluating performance development endeavours. As a Government, we continue in the public and private sector, as well as civil to reach out to non-state actors (private sector and civil society. This is a critical milestone given the need for society) in an effort to facilitate inclusive Government effective monitoring of implementation of programmes, in line with Vision 2036 Pillar 4 on Governance, Peace projects, policies and laws to enhance efficiency and and Security; Africa Agenda 2063 Aspiration 3 and accountability. SDG 16 on peaceful, inclusive and democratic societies for sustainable development. The Global Peace Index, The just passed general elections, only 49 per cent of 2020 ranks Botswana as the world’s 2nd most peaceful the total eligible population voted in 2019, compared to African country at position 33 out of 163 countries. 52.4 per cent in 2014. Voter turnout for 2019 stood at 84 per cent against a set target of 92 per cent. Low political Mr Speaker, in order to improve the effectiveness and representation particularly among women and people efficiency of the Judicial system and to increase case living with disabilities continues to be a challenge, for

14 Hansard No 198 Thursday 3rd September, 2020 SECTORAL DEBATE:CHAPTER 6 SUSTAINABLE ENVIRONMENT (Resumed Debate)

which we will make concerted effort over the remainder Constitution. This critical exercise will among other of this plan period to address. things strengthen the effectiveness of oversight institutions and enhance good governance in line with The justice system continues to experience challenges the expectations of Batswana. of low disposal of cases against target turnaround times for the different case types. For instance, the turnaround Noting the persistent gender inequalities in our society, time for civil cases was 65 per cent and for criminal Government will embark on intense public education, cases, it stood at 48 per cent in the same period, against dissemination of the National Policy on Gender and a target of 100 per cent respectively. Set turnaround Development, as well as capacity building of sectors to times are at 24 months for civil cases, and 18 months undertake gender mainstreaming into their policies and for criminal cases. programmes. Alongside these intervention measures, Government will be paying particular attention to Mr Speaker, corruption, maladministration, inadequate enhancing targeted inclusion of women, girls, men and capacity in terms of appropriate human capital, below boys in development initiatives. par work ethic and culture, organisational structures, systems and processes appear to be among the major Mr Speaker, furthermore, Government will step up effort factors challenging implementation of policies and to implement the national strategy towards ending GBV. programmes, which ultimately undermine Government We will also continue to engage key stakeholders and effectiveness. The implementation of anti-corruption service providers to develop community conversations measures remains a challenge, and the sophisticated for comprehensive interventions to combat GBV as a nature of some of the corruption cases requires enhanced national priority. The national prioritisation of GBV investigative and prosecutorial skills. Systemic will ensure that all sectors and stakeholders are fully maladministration continues to manifest in the public committed and capacitated to address this national sector, a situation that provides fertile opportunity for scourge. corruption. Mr Speaker, during the second half of NDP 11, one of Mr Speaker, oversight institutions are in most cases the priorities for Government is to fast track the rollout perceived as weak and unable to address corruption and implementation of the National Monitoring and and maladministration in the country. The Mo Ibrahim Evaluation System (NMES) to improve efficiency, Index on African Governance (IIAG) 2019 Report, particularly in the public sector. In an effort to indicates that while overall Botswana remains one of compliment international indices on Botswana, the well governed and least corrupt countries in Africa, localised governance and democracy indices will be there have been signs of decline with a cumulative developed to ensure relevant intervention and remedial change of minus 3.7 between 2008 and 2017. This calls measures aligned to real challenges affecting Batswana. for collaborative effort across all sectors to ensure that In line with the new result-oriented approach, more as a country we employ robust intervention measures, focus will be given to data management and security, any decline in good governance. As a country, we capacity building and human resource development, remain committed to the rule of law and zero tolerance succession planning, leadership development and a to corruption. National Corporate Governance Code. Mr Speaker, gender inequality remains a major NATIONAL SECURITY challenge, which is now becoming more pronounced during this period of the COVID-19 pandemic, possibly ACHIEVEMENTS DURING THE FIRST HALF due to the increase of socio-economic stressors. I OF NDP 11 note with concern that pre-existing gender inequities Mr Speaker, peace and security issues have always been and power dynamics continue to fuel Gender Based an indispensable condition for a well-functioning state. Violence (GBV). In this regard, it is necessary that the content and context PROPOSED POLICIES AND STRATEGIES of our strategic policies target and reflect the need to safeguard our national safety and security. Provision Mr Speaker, in order to address some of the outlined of national security in all aspects is fundamental challenges, Government has committed to undertake for economic development, global competitiveness, a comprehensive and consultative review of the conducive business environment and overall prosperity.

Hansard No198 15 Thursday 3rd September, 2020 SECTORAL DEBATE:CHAPTER 6 SUSTAINABLE ENVIRONMENT (Resumed Debate)

Mr Speaker, as I have already indicated, Botswana PROPOSED POLICIES AND STRATEGIES continues to be rated one of the world’s most peaceful Mr Speaker, in an effort to address these security nations by various international institutions such as the challenges, the Government is developing a National Global Peace Index and the Global Terrorism Index. Security Strategy encompassing Human Security, Moreover, as a member of the international community, Cyber Security, Energy Security, Economic Security, Botswana is party to a number of international Water Security, Food Security, Land Security et cetera. instruments with binding obligations. To ensure Botswana will ensure the permanent non-violation of compliance to these international obligations, an Inter- national territory and its effective control by employing Ministerial Committee has been established. One of the all available national instruments. Furthermore, notable achievements is the development of a database Botswana will continue to nurture and foster bilateral for all the international instruments to which Botswana relations with neighbouring countries, international and is party. strategic partners to advance issues of national interest. This includes the implementation of the South-South In 2018, Parliament enacted 25 Anti-Money Laundering, Cooperation Strategy to promote political and economic Counter-Financing of Terrorism and Counter cooperation and integration, as well as forging strategic Proliferation Financing Acts in order to comply with the partnerships at regional and multi-lateral levels. Financial Action Task Force Recommendations. The Mr Speaker, Governance, Peace and Security provide laws were meant to facilitate the country’s technical the pillar for an enabling environment for sustainable compliance to anti-money laundering standards on the and inclusive development, Government effectiveness, prevention and control of laundering proceeds of crime, strong institutions, human rights, poverty eradication, financing of terrorism and proliferation of weapons gender equality and the empowerment of women, to of mass destruction. Implementation of these laws is mention but a few. This is also vital for the attainment currently ongoing and will continue to be prioritised to of Vision 2036, Africa Agenda 2063 Aspirations and ensure their effectiveness. Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs). Mr Speaker, these laws introduced a new philosophy of Mr Speaker, I must point out that the Chapter which will money laundering investigation, with an emphasis on be debated by this Honourable House at a later stage, parallel financial investigation geared towards following is a product of consultative engagement among all the trail of the money. Our focus is now on building skills concerned stakeholders. and capacity for the entire Criminal Justice System, particularly law enforcement agencies to enhance their Mr Speaker, in conclusion, let me thank the entire membership of the Governance, Peace and Security skills to investigate, analyse and prosecute complex (GPS) Thematic Working Group (TWG) for the and emerging financial and other trans-national crimes commitment and zeal, which culminated in this including recovering proceeds of crime. comprehensive Chapter, that I am confident, will enjoy As regards the national defence sector, modest the support of this Honourable House. I so submit and achievements were in the areas of air capability, force thank you for your attention. protection and deterrence. Given the relatively small Thank you, Mr Speaker. God bless you all, God bless size of the defence and security sector, strengthening Botswana. operational capabilities will enhance efforts to achieving deterrence. MR SPEAKER: Thank you Honourable Minister. Order! Order! Honourable Members, may I now CHALLENGES call upon the Minister of International Affairs and Mr Speaker, emerging global security challenges, such Cooperation to present. Honourable Dr Kwape, you as cybercrime, terrorism, poaching, human trafficking, have 20 minutes. illicit drugs, money laundering and trans-national MINISTRY OF INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS AND organised crimes continue to threaten Botswana’s COOPERATION sovereignty and territorial integrity. Irregular migration also poses a threat to multi-lateralism. In order to address MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS AND these, collaborative efforts among relevant stakeholders COOPERATION (DR KWAPE): Mr Speaker, I have remains paramount and essential. the honour to present to this Honourable House the

16 Hansard No 198 Thursday 3rd September, 2020 SECTORAL DEBATE:CHAPTER 6 SUSTAINABLE ENVIRONMENT (Resumed Debate)

contributions of the Ministry of International Affairs As part of the global community, Botswana needs the and Cooperation to the Mid-Term Review (MTR) cooperation and support of the international community of the National Development Plan (NDP) 11 under to safeguard her sovereignty and territorial integrity. the Governance, Peace and Security (GPS) Thematic This in turn, contributes immensely towards global Working Group (TWG). peace and stability, which is of paramount importance given that the modern day security landscape has My presentation will highlight key achievements and become increasingly complex and sophisticated. challenges experienced to date towards the realisation of NDP 11 objectives. I will also present the ministry’s These intricate threats have further underlined the strategic initiatives aimed at the attainment of sustainable interconnectedness of our global village and irrefutably Development Goal 16, which “promotes peaceful necessitate collective response at regional and and inclusive societies for sustainable development, international levels. providing access to justice for all, and building effective accountable and inclusive institutions at all levels”. Mr Speaker, it is in this context that regional cooperation remains the cornerstone of Botswana’s foreign policy. Let me in this regard, associate myself with the Botswana thus, continues to cooperate with her statement made by the Minister of Defence, Justice and neighbours through various bilateral mechanisms, Security and the Chairperson of the Thematic Working as well as her membership of the Southern African Group on Governance, Peace and Security, Honourable Development Community (SADC). Kagiso Mmusi. Botswana has used these bilateral platforms which MANDATE OF THE MINISTRY include Joint Permanent Commissions for Cooperation (JPCC) and Bi-National Commissions to advance her Mr Speaker, the mandate of the ministry is to promote diplomatic initiatives and to contribute to the Regional and safeguard Botswana’s national interests abroad, in Integration Agenda. all areas of human development. This entails cultivating and maintaining friendly relations at bilateral, regional Mr Speaker, it will be noted that Botswana has just and international levels. taken over the Chairship of SADC Organ on Politics, Defence and Security. Botswana will hold this office As the custodian of Botswana’s foreign policy, the until August 2021. During her tenure, Botswana will ministry plays a pivotal role in fostering and protecting provide leadership on peace and security issues in the Botswana’s sovereignty and territorial integrity. It also region and I will be making a statement in due course in collaborates with relevant stakeholders in the promotion the works of the Organ. of good governance and the rule of law, as well as in contributing towards a diversified economy through the Mr Speaker, it should be noted that prior to the promotion of export-led growth. The ministry is also the assumption of the Chairship, Botswana was part of the key driver of regional and multilateral diplomacy. SADC Organ Troika, and in this regard, contributed towards peace-building initiatives and consolidation of To this end, the ministry plays an instrumental role in democracy in the region. ensuring that Botswana, as a good standing member of the international community, not only meets her Mr Speaker, at bilateral level, Botswana engaged international obligations and commitments, but also extensively with her strategic partners. This resulted fully benefits from her strategic partnerships and in goodwill overtures to Botswana as demonstrated by membership of international bodies. technical support and donations across the development spectrum; enhanced trade and investment, as well as NOTABLE ACHIEVEMENTS strengthened bilateral relations. Sovereignty and Territorial Integrity At continental level, Botswana continues to play an Mr Speaker, the mutually reinforcing nexus between active role in advancing the transformational agenda peace and security and sustainable development has as envisioned in Agenda 2063, by advocating for a already been eloquently established. As stated, there transparent, inclusive reform process of the African can be no sustainable development without peace and Union. In that regard, Botswana is now a member of the stability and vice versa. African Union Peer Review Mechanism.

Hansard No198 17 Thursday 3rd September, 2020 SECTORAL DEBATE:CHAPTER 6 SUSTAINABLE ENVIRONMENT (Resumed Debate)

As a state party to various human rights treaties, economic diversification, the ministry facilitated Botswana continues to honour her international Botswana’s participation, led by His Excellency the obligations. In this respect, Botswana actively worked President to the World Economic Forum (WEF) in with partners through the Human Rights Council. She January 2020. This has resulted in among others, was a member of the Human Rights Council from 2011 concerted and cooperative efforts to apply advanced to 2017. Fourth Industrial Revolution (4IR) technologies towards implementation of the 2030 Agenda for Sustainable The ministry also facilitated Botswana’s reporting Development Goals (SDGs), and its 17th Sustainable obligations to the relevant international treaty bodies. Development Goal. This includes a report to the Human Rights Council Universal Periodic Review Mechanism in 2018, as Botswana has also, in recent years made significant well as the submission of reports on the Convention on progress in obtaining membership of several the Elimination of Discrimination against Women, the international bodies, and presently holds the following Rights of the Child, the Convention on the Elimination leadership position and roles: of All Forms of Racial Discrimination and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. • Africa Regional Director of World Health Organization; Multilateral Diplomacy • Director - Office of the Director General, of the Mr Speaker, I am sure we can all agree that multilateralism World Health Organisation. I must add here Mr and multilateral diplomacy have become even more Speaker that Dr Moeti is in the country for a week; critical in addressing the multifaceted challenges that confront humanity today. As such, challenges • Member and Vice President of Economic and Social of COVID-19 pandemic, poverty, climate change, Council (ECOSOC) - January 2020 to December terrorism and cyber security, necessitate that countries 2022; work together to foster effective collective responses, th as well as in mitigating these challenges. Clearly, the • Chair of the Fourth Committee of the 75 Session unprecedented COVID-19 pandemic, which has spared of the UN General Assembly - September 2020 to no country, has become the single greatest challenge September 2021; of our time. No country, big or small can deal with it • Member and Chair of the United Nations (UN) alone. It is therefore, heartening that during this time of Committee on Programme and Coordination (CPC) dire need, the international community has risen to the - Member June 2018 to June 2020, and Chair June challenge, by among others, extending a compassionate 2019 to June 2020; hand to support and assist each other. Mr Speaker, Botswana appreciates the support and • Member and Vice President of United Nations cooperation extended by our neighbours in facilitating Development Programme (UNDP)/United Nations the safe return of Batswana during this difficult time, Population Fund (UNFPA)/United Nations Office as well as the continuous flow of goods and services. for Project Services (UNOPS) Executive Board- We are also deeply grateful for the generous support, January 2019 to December 2021; assistance and cooperation we have received from our • Member of the Commission on Population and invaluable friends and cooperating partners. Development - 2021 to 2025; To this end, the ministry also continues to facilitate • Co-facilitator together with Montenegro on the Botswana’s access to technical assistance from process of Alignment of Agendas of United Nations the international community, including through General Assembly (UNGA) and Economic and participation in the development of key policies of the Social Council (ECOSOC) - 74th Session of UNGA; World Health Organisation (WHO), to which Botswana assumed Executive Board membership for three years, • Coordinator of Africa Group World Trade starting May 2020 to June 2023. Organisation Matters - January to December 2020;

Mr Speaker, as part of ongoing efforts to secure multi- • Member of the World Health Organisation Executive sectoral partnerships with a view to contribute towards Board - May 2020 to June 2023.

18 Hansard No 198 Thursday 3rd September, 2020 SECTORAL DEBATE:CHAPTER 6 SUSTAINABLE ENVIRONMENT (Resumed Debate)

Economic Diplomacy Similarly, in line with its responsibility of hosting dignitaries visiting Botswana, the ministry, Mr Speaker, as I just intimated, my ministry remains purchased a State Guest House in Gaborone. central in harnessing international cooperation and partnerships to drive Botswana’s development goals. KEY CHALLENGES In this regard, economic diplomacy is another integral vehicle of Botswana’s foreign policy towards trade Mr Speaker, as previously stated, our diplomatic liberalization, promoting export-led growth, and missions play a critical role in driving our foreign policy attracting Foreign Direct Investment (FDI), thus initiatives which include promoting the country as a creating employment for Batswana. destination of investment and tourism. However, our missions are not adequately resourced to fully undertake Furthermore, the ministry has facilitated and led these important assignments of marketing Botswana promotional missions to various countries to market abroad. Botswana as an ideal investment and tourism destination. Whilst the results of such promotional initiatives take The ministry is confronted with high costs of time to bear fruit, others have had significant impact property rentals for both embassy offices and staff as evidenced by the operation of major airlines in accommodation. Currently, it spends an amount of One Botswana, such as Qatar Airways. Its maiden flight to Hundred and Four Million, Ninety-Four Thousand, Gaborone was on 15 December 2019. Two Hundred and Thirteen Pula (P104, 094, 213.00) annually in rentals. Mr Speaker, I am also pleased to state that Botswana has, within the period under review, concluded bilateral As it can be deduced, Botswana’s diplomatic visa abolition agreements to facilitate ease of movement, representation is inadequate and the posture of multiple with a number of countries. These include; Angola and accreditation to many countries undermines our Russia, for all passports, while China, Switzerland and economic diplomacy agenda. It is thus critical that as a Vietnam; the dispensation is only for diplomatic and long term investment, Botswana progressively increases official passport holders. Visa abolition with India only her global footprint by opening more missions and covers diplomatic passport holders. Negotiations are contain associated costs by, among others acquiring on-going with other strategic countries. property. Representation Abroad CRITICAL PRIORITY AREAS Mr Speaker, as this august House may be aware, Botswana conducts her foreign policy through her 23 The ministry has identified the following strategic diplomatic Missions abroad. As part of her effort to initiatives as key to effectively implement its mandate, increase Botswana’s representation abroad, the ministry to further advance our National Development Plan opened a resident diplomatic mission in Paris, France, (NDP) 11 objectives; in February 2019. This development has provided an Finalisation of the Foreign Policy Document opportunity to strengthen relations with France and enhance direct engagement with organisations such as In order to ensure a coordinated approach and a the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural strategic focus in our engagement with the international Organisation (UNESCO). community, the ministry has embarked on the development of a foreign policy document for Botswana. As it will be appreciated, in order to mitigate some This will be finalised by the end of the financial year of the costs associated with having resident missions 2020/2021. abroad, it is prudent that the ministry secures and maintains properties in countries where Botswana Increased representation of Batswana in international has representation. In this connection, the ministry organisations is of paramount importance. Therefore, purchased a chancery office building in Nairobi, the ministry will continue to play a critical role in Kenya in 2018. The ministry is also about to conclude identifying positions and opportunities in international two major projects, being a turnkey office building in organisations for Batswana. Geneva, Switzerland and the construction of chancery building and Diplomatic staff apartments in Addis Finalise and Implement the South-South Triangular Ababa, Ethiopia. Cooperation Strategy

Hansard No198 19 Thursday 3rd September, 2020 SECTORAL DEBATE:CHAPTER 6 SUSTAINABLE ENVIRONMENT (Resumed Debate)

The ministry is collaborating with the United Nations their continued support. I wish to assure you that despite Development Programme (UNDP) to develop Botswana’s the gigantic challenges, I have alluded to, the ministry South-South and Triangular Cooperation Strategy (SSc/ remains steadfast in its resolve to pursue its mandate of TrC). The strategy is part of the implementation of Goal protecting and advancing Botswana’s strategic interests 17 of the Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs) on abroad and seeking opportunities for Batswana. We will partnerships. It encourages countries to enhance South- continue to count on your invaluable support. I thank South and Triangular Cooperation to support national you Mr Speaker. plans to implement SDGs. The strategy will serve HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Applause!)… as a blueprint of Botswana’s engagement with other developing countries. MR SPEAKER: Thank you Honourable Minister. I now call upon the Minister of Defence, Justice and Developing and Implementing Economic Diplomacy Security to present for Attorney General’s Chambers, 30 Strategy minutes. The ministry has started the process of developing ATTORNEY GENERAL’S CHAMBERS an Economic Diplomacy Strategy, with a view to undertake targeted trade, investment and tourism MINISTER OF DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND promotional activities, as well as, identify access market SECURITY (MR MMUSI): Mr Speaker, I have for Botswana’s products. the honour to present to this Honourable House, the Attorney General’s Chambers (AGC) proposals for Mid- Formulating and Implementing the Diaspora Policy Term Review of the NDP 11. The proposed strategies, As part of our annual plan for 2020/2021, the ministry programmes and projects are intended to drive the has started the process of developing a comprehensive Attorney General’s Chambers mandate. Diaspora Engagement Policy. This is in recognition of the significant contribution that the diaspora can make Mr Speaker, the role of the Attorney General is defined towards Botswana’s development. in Section 51 of the Constitution of Botswana as the Principal Legal Advisor to Government. The department Ensuring Compliance to International Obligations comprises four divisions and has administrative supervision of the Directorate of Public Prosecutions The ministry is currently finalising the development of (DPP) established under Section 51 of the Constitution. the database on international agreements, to facilitate monitoring of compliance, implementation and Mr Speaker, the following are the divisions of the reporting on international obligations. So far, over 200 Attorney General’s Chambers and their roles: agreements have already been uploaded. The portal will be open to the public as soon as it is complete. • The DPP is responsible for instituting and undertaking the prosecution of all criminal cases on Policies, Projects and Programmes to Support behalf of the State. Priority Areas • The divisions of the Attorney General’s Chambers Opening of new missions are Civil Litigation Division (CLD), Legislative Drafting Division (LDD), International and It is critical that Botswana consider opening new Commercial Division (ICD) and Corporate Services missions in strategic countries, to increase her diplomatic Division (CSD). coverage and exploit available opportunities. Purchase of Chancery Buildings • The Civil Litigation Division is responsible for undertaking the litigation of all civil actions on The ministry will purchase properties, both residential behalf of Government. and office space, in strategic locations, to reduce the high rental costs. • The Legislative Drafting Division is responsible for drafting legislation, namely Government Bills and CONCLUSION subsidiary legislation.

In conclusion, allow me to express my profound • The Legislative Drafting Division also produces the gratitude to the Honourable Members of this House for annual bound editions of the Botswana Statute Law.

20 Hansard No 198 Thursday 3rd September, 2020 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

• The International and Commercial Division provides CAPACITY BUILDING & HUMAN RESOURCES legal services relating to the negotiation and drafting DEVELOPMENT of international and commercial agreements on behalf of Government; and Restructuring

• The Corporate Services Division which carries out Mr Speaker, The Attorney General’s Chambers (AGC) the coordination of the department’s resources and continues to face the challenges of high attrition rates support services. and staff shortages at senior and middle management levels in critical areas of litigation and drafting, which Mr Speaker, notable achievements during the first half affect both the quality and quantity generated by the of NDP11 are as follows: AGC…

(i) Decentralisation of services by the AGC; MR SPEAKER: Thank you Honourable Minister. expansion of DPP to districts (Selebi Phikwe), Honourable Members, we have done the two hours and as part of efforts to ensure effective dispensation we should adjourn so that we are back here at 2 p.m. to of justice countrywide and ensuring access to its continue as usual. Let us adjourn. services by the public, the DPP has set itself a target of opening new offices in the districts. In the PROCEEDINGS SUSPENDED AT 1.05 P.M. FOR first half of NDP 11, one such office in the town APPROXIMATELY 59 MINUTES of Selebi Phikwe successfully opened its doors to the public. The office officially opened its doors PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 2.04 P.M. in the third quarter of 2018 and has already taken over all prosecutorial duties from Botswana Police MR SPEAKER (MR SKELEMANI): Order! Order! Service in the SPEDU region, Bobirwa and part of Good afternoon Honourable Members! This House the Tswapong area. resumes the business of today with questions.

(ii) Laws of Botswana; Mr Speaker, the updating QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER of the Laws of Botswana, which commenced in PLANS TO EXTEND SEWAGE DISPOSAL October 2015, is outsourced to Lexis Nexis (Pty) INFRASTRUCTURE IN BOBONONG Ltd, a company based in Durban, South Africa. I am pleased to report that the Law Revision MR T. B. LUCAS (BOBONONG): Asked the Minister Order updating the Laws of Botswana up to 31st of Land Management, Water and Sanitation Services: December, 2018 has been finalised. The delivery was expected before the end of financial year (i) to state whether there are any plans to extend 2019/2020, however, it was affected by the sewage disposal infrastructure to areas that were COVID-19 pandemic. not covered in the first phase in Bobonong;

(iii) Secondment Strategy; Mr Speaker, the AGC has (ii) if there are such plans the Minister should give improved access to legal services by expanding timelines for undertaking such; its presence in Government ministries and departments by way of secondment of lawyers. (iii) if there are no such plans, when does the Minister The advantage of placing lawyers in ministries intend to evolve such plans; and departments where their services are needed (iv) whether his ministry has any plans to construct most is that there is speed and quality in decision and connect sewage disposal infrastructure in any making. The implementation of the Secondment of the villages in Bobirwa other than Bobonong; Strategy has led to all ministries having in-situ and legal officers to provide on the spot legal advice. The objective of this initiative is to speed up service (v) state timelines where there are such plans and delivery and facilitate Government operations as where there are no plans, the Minister should state well as to reduce unwarranted litigation against when he intends to evolve such plans. the Government. MINISTER OF LAND MANAGEMENT, WATER Mr Speaker, priorities for the remaining period of the AND SANITATION SERVICES (MR MZWINILA): National Development Plan (NDP) 11 are as follows: Good afternoon Mr Speaker.

Hansard No198 21 Thursday 3rd September, 2020 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

(i) Mr Speaker, it is worth noting that the Phase 1 of the One other thing, we are intending to expand provision of Water and Sanitation Infrastructure Development sewerage services in other villages. In our development for Bobonong village was implemented by plan, our top priority is big villages in terms of the Ministry of Local Government and Rural population. This is to say, we are going to start with Development and not by my Ministry. Bobonong and Mmadinare and we will proceed to other villages when we are done. It is included in our plan (ii) The project started in 2000 and was completed because at the end of the day, our intention is to provide in 2004. The project was earmarked to provide village sewerage network system in all the villages. sewerage services to Government institutions Thank you Mr Speaker. and covered 40 per cent of the village sewerage network system. MR LUCAS: Further supplementary. According to you Honourable, what do you mean by a big village (iii) Mr Speaker, it is to be noted that the budget in terms of population? I am saying this because I proposal for sanitation infrastructure development believe Tsetsebjwe is a big village reason being, it for Bobonong village to expand to areas which accommodates a population of more than 6 000 people. were not covered during Phase 1, was submitted So this village qualifies to be covered in terms of sewage for consideration under NDP 11, but unfortunately infrastructure. due to budgetary constraints the project was not MR MZWINILA: Thank you Honourable. Our target considered. in terms of estimations as opposed to where we plan (iv) Mr Speaker, the proposed Bobonong sanitation to locate our village sewerage network system, we are infrastructure development expansion will be targeting villages with a population of more than 10,000 submitted for consideration under NDP 12 people. This means that in Constituencies, we will be planning period. targeting villages which had this kind of population as per 2011 population census. After doing that, we will (v) Mr Speaker, a similar project proposal for proceed to other villages as per their population census sanitation and infrastructure development was of 2011. Thank you Honourable. also considered for Mmadinare village in the EXTENT OF BOTSWANA GOVERNMENT’S NDP 11, and likewise not approved due to budget INDEBTEDNESS constraints. Mmadinare sanitation infrastructure development will be submitted for consideration MR O. REGOENG (MOLEPOLOLE NORTH): under NDP 12. I thank you Mr Speaker. Asked the Minister of Finance and Economic Development to apprise this Honourable House on: MR LUCAS: Supplementary Mr Speaker. Minister, the main question which you should have addressed (i) the extent of Botswana Government’s indebtedness is, do you ever consider providing sewerage services either through external borrowings, domestic to areas which have increased population growth like borrowings, overdrafts, guarantees, or any other Tsetsebjwe, Mathathane and Molalatau? I believe you form of debt; did not address that part of the question. (ii) the Government’s current debt to GDP ratio;

There is absolutely no provision of sewage infrastructure (iii) the current Government borrowing limit and at Borotsi area which is in Bobonong. If it was supposed whether the current indebtedness has not exceeded to cover 40 per cent, it was supposed to be equitably the set limit; distributed in the village. The question therefore is, why did you leave out this big village which accommodates (iv) which International Agency or Government is a population of more than 7 000 people? the top lender/creditor and by how much as a proportion of Government’s total debt; and MR MZWINILA: Thank you Mr Speaker. The project was earmarked to provide sewerage services to (v) whether in the wake of the apparent emerging trend Government institutions and covered 40 per cent of the towards foreclosure and repossession by certain entire sewerage network system of the village not 40 per international creditors against some countries/ cent per ward. governments on account of failure to honour debt

22 Hansard No 198 Thursday 3rd September, 2020 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

obligations, can the Minister, state how safe and Mr Speaker, of this amount, external debt to GDP secure is the Botswana Government from such was 11.49 per cent, whilst domestic debt was 8.85 heavy-handed creditors. per cent. Mr Speaker, as per the Stock Bonds and Treasury Bills Act Section 20, total public debt, MINISTER OF FINANCE AND ECONOMIC including guarantees is kept at 40 per cent of GDP, DEVELOPMENT (DR MATSHEKA): that is 20 per cent for external debt and 20 per cent BACKGROUND ON BOTSWANA’S DEBT for domestic debt. As I have indicated earlier, MANAGEMENT currently Botswana’s total debt to GDP ratio is at 20.34 per cent. This is below the said limit of 40 (a) Mr Speaker, I wish to give this Honourable House per cent stipulated in the Act. a background on Government’s debt management. The ’s borrowing is based A larger portion of the Government portfolio was on the Public Finance Management Act of 2011, acquired from the African Development Bank. Mr Section 20; which gives the Minister responsible Speaker, total loans acquired from African Development for finance the power to borrow with final authority Bank make up 77 per cent of the total Government debt resting with Parliament. Furthermore, the Stock, portfolio as at July, 2020. Bonds and Treasury Bills Act of 2005, Section 20; Finally, Mr Speaker, Botswana’s public debt to sets the limit within which Government can borrow. GDP ratio, which is kept at 40 per cent is considered (b) The primary objective of Botswana’s debt very conservative and it is because of the country’s management is to ensure that the financing needs vulnerabilities. This ratio is even below the Southern and payment obligations of Government are met at African Development Community (SADC) the lowest possible cost consistent with a prudent macroeconomic convergence curve of 60 per cent. degree of risk, and in coordination with fiscal and Botswana has not defaulted on any of its debt payments monetary policies. The secondary objective of debt obligations both domestic and international, therefore management is for Government to assist in the rendering the country secure from closures or any development of the domestic capital market, thus repossessions by creditors. I thank you Mr Speaker. facilitating maintenance of financial stability and MR REGOENG: Supplementary. Thank you development of the domestic financial system. These Honourable Minister for your answer, but I just have objectives guide the Government in responding to two supplementary questions here. What has been the the need to finance any anticipated budget deficits. reaction of the international financing agency upon (c) In 2016, Government developed its maiden Medium hearing that Botswana has been blacklisted? That is Term Debt Management Strategy which ensured that question one. Then question two is the Botswana’s the set debt management objectives were met. In credit rating, has it been affected by the blacklisting? If 2019, a Debt Sustainability Analysis was undertaken, so, to what extent? Thank you. the result of which indicated that Botswana’s debt DR MATSHEKA: Thank you very much Honourable was sustainable over the medium term. Member, thank you Mr Speaker. I think the question (i) In response for the Member’s question, Mr on the blacklisting, the international community Speaker as at July 2020, total public debt and understands that there is a process underpinning any guarantees amounted to P39.28 billion. This type of action as I have explained in terms of my included P30.61 billion as Government debt, of statement to this Parliament. We have therefore not which P15.52 billion was external and domestic received any specific interventions by any country was P15.09 billion. Publicly guaranteed debt because the process to rectify any identified deficiencies amounted to P8.67 billion and comprised of P6.90 is understood by the international community as part of billion external guaranteed debt and P1.76 billion the Financial Action Task Force (FATF) arrangements. being domestic guaranteed debt. The Government In terms of the credit rating, the rating includes all currently has no overdraft as part of its debt aspects of a country’s governance and as a result, we portfolio. have not had a visit as yet of the credit rating agencies (ii) The total public debt to Gross Domestic Product to come and review their last intervention in terms of (GDP) ratio as at July 2020 was 20.34 per cent. looking at our country’s fiscal sustainability. I would

Hansard No198 23 Thursday 3rd September, 2020 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

also say to you that, what I have also reported in terms Development Bank is the one with 77 per cent. I may of the debt levels, is a key consideration for any country not be able to give you the details today, around the to decide the ranking that a nation must be placed at. I payment plans for all the existing loans, but I can assure thank you Mr Speaker. you that as I have said, we have not defaulted at any stage in terms of our obligations both domestically and HONOURABLE MEMBER: Further supplementary. externally. MR SPEAKER: Last supplementary Honourable Finally, Mr Speaker, I did indicate that we currently sit Keorapetse. at 20 per cent, but we have a limit up to 40 per cent which is a combination of both domestic and external MR KEORAPETSE: Thank you Honourable Speaker. borrowing, so that choice of which mixture we will Let me ask Honourable Matsheka that the S&P and adopt, will depend on the viability of the projects in Moody’s have recently downgraded us, we just want to consideration. I thank you Mr Speaker. find out to what extent would this affect our borrowing, particularly as you have indicated that part of the LIBERALISATION OF THE PROCESS OF remainder of National Development Plan (NDP) 11 ALTERATIONS OF PERSONAL DETAILS ON will be financed through both multilateral and bilateral BIRTH CERTIFICATES development partners by way of borrowing? MR M. M. PULE (MOCHUDI EAST): asked the The second question is, I had asked a similar question Minister of Nationality, Immigration and Gender before, during the 11th Parliament. What I wanted to Affairs if she is aware that according to Section 14 of find out was, whether you could avail information the Births and Deaths Registration Act, clients wishing detailing which countries are owed how much; which to make changes/alterations in personal details that is, international financial institutions and regional financial (correction of sex, date of birth, place of birth, removal institutions are owed how much, and the timelines within of parental details etc.) in birth certificates can only do which we want to borrow for purposes of financing so with an order of the High Court: our development and in line with the provisions of the Public Finance Management Act, particularly the 40 per (i) if so, is she not convinced that it is high time this cent part? process was liberalised in order to mitigate on the high costs incurred by Batswana in accessing the DR MATSHEKA: Thank you Honourable Member, required order at High Courts; thank you Mr Speaker. I think the issue around the downgrading is actually part of what I presented in the (ii) what measures are in place to assist Batswana to Economic Recovery and Transformation Plan (ERTP), access this service and apply to the courts; and that prudent or efficient Government spending becomes (iii) what the ministry’s plans are to ensure accessibility a very key consideration. Also, the extent to which we and affordability of this service to Batswana. entrench the reforms that we have committed to as well as the fiscal sustainability index to make sure that we MINISTER OF NATIONALITY, IMMIGRATION are able to finance what we have set out to do, it is a key AND GENDER AFFAIRS (MS MOKGETHI): consideration. So the caveat that was given by the rating Thank you Mr Speaker. I am aware that in terms of agencies, was to ensure that we place a commitment Section 14 of the Births and Deaths Registration Act to actually be very efficient in the deployment of all requires clients wishing to make changes in personal the monies that we have as a country. Therefore, fiscal details in their birth certificates to have an order of the discipline becomes a very important consideration. You High Court. The intention of the law is to preserve the would also note that we have increased our deficit to 7 integrity of the National Birth Register. per cent now of GDP, which is way above our 4 per cent. My ministry acknowledges the need to facilitate We expect for them to come back and try and ascertain the process of altering personal details in the birth how we will recover that lost ground in terms of the certificate. The Birth and Death Registration Act was fiscal deficit. enacted in 1968 and last reviewed in 1998. Currently, I think on the second question, yes, it is possible to Batswana who cannot afford legal fees are assisted provide you with the debtors list and creditors list that through Legal Aid Botswana. My ministry is in the we have which is why I was able to confirm that African process of reviewing the Births and Deaths Registration

24 Hansard No 198 Thursday 3rd September, 2020 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

Act with a view to facilitate alteration of personal This register should not just be willy-nilly changed. details, and extend the authority to other competent Thank you Mr Speaker. authorities such as Magistrates Courts, as they are more widespread in the country than High Courts. This will HONOURABLE MEMBER: Supplementary. facilitate accessibility and affordability of the service to MR SPEAKER: Last supplementary Honourable Pule. Batswana. I thank you Mr Speaker. MR PULE: Supplementary. Thank you Mr Speaker. MR KEORAPETSE: Supplementary. Honourable If you allow me Mr Speaker, basically when this Minister, will you be amenable to institutions that are question was asked, I wanted to find if the Honourable accessible to the ordinary downtrodden given the fact Minister is aware that we have so many cases of this that even the Magistrates Courts are not that widespread sort where people have those documents not completed as you have indicated. They are in major centres and because maybe they look at the court proceedings as villages, they are not readily accessible. Why not hindrance to them, especially in my Constituency of liberalise as the Honourable Member has suggested, Mochudi East. I received many of such cases and I do liberalise to institutions that are more accessible to, not know if the Honourable Minister is in a position to especially the poor who are affected by the need to alter tell us exactly when the review of the Birth and Deaths some of the details found in their birth certificates or in Registration Act going to be completed because while their identity documents? Thank you. we are still waiting for that, maybe it will be prudent for the Honourable Minister to find ways of helping such MS MOKGETHI: Mr Speaker, unfortunately the people? Thank you Mr Speaker. Member has not indicated what kind of institutions he is referring to, but I think the legislature, in formulating MS MOKGETHI: Addressing the last question this law which…, maybe the Member can indicate apart concerning assistance we can give; I have indicated from them but we have indicated the Magistrates Court. in my answer that Batswana who cannot afford are Which other institutions are you referring to? currently being assisted by Legal Aid Botswana. In terms of how far we are with the review, unfortunately, MR KEORAPETSE: With your permission I cannot say it because there is a process that we have to Honourable Speaker, the Kgotla is more accessible, if go through but we are working on the review so that that the offices are empowered and power is decentralised to can be extended. Apart from the High Court, it should the offices of home affairs related issues, I think those also be extended to the Magistrate Court. I thank you will be more accessible to our people. Mr Speaker.

MS MOKGETHI: Here we are referring to a register MAINTENANCE OF NON- which is very important. We are talking about a LETHAL ELECTRICAL GAME PROOF FENCE National Register in which the whole country relies MR T. F. LEUWE (TAKATOKWANE): asked the on for information with respect to its population and Honourable Minister of Environment, Natural Resources therefore if I may just refer to this Section 15, which Conservation and Tourism when the Kaudwane Non- puts a very high requirement on the court in terms of Lethal Electrical Game Proof fence will be maintained Section 15(2) that says, “the High Court shall not make since it was damaged by elephants in 2017 and to state: any order under this section unless the material fact in connection with which the application is made approved (i) how many farmers have had their livestock killed to its satisfaction.” We can see that we are talking about by lions since the collapse of the fence; a very important National Register and if we look (ii) how many domestic animals have been killed by at Section 4 of the Act, it says, “the Registrar shall predators; maintain three registers to be called the birth register, stillbirth register and the death register respectively (iii) how many farmers have been compensated and into which shall be entered, prescribed details of birth, how many have not yet been compensated; stillbirths and deaths.” I think it is also important to note (iv) when they are going to be compensated; and that it is important to preserve the register so that it is not open to corruption and fraud. As I said, it is a very (v) how much is the total compensation for domestic important register into which the entire country relies animals killed because of the damaged or collapsed for dependable information regarding such information. fence.

Hansard No198 25 Thursday 3rd September, 2020 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

MR LETSHOLO: Honourable Speaker, Honourable application forms at post offices across the country. The Mr Leuwe has asked me to later date the question for agency is currently engaged in an exercise to review its him, please. branch network countrywide, to ensure that it reaches out to the citizens in a convenient manner as much as Later Date. possible to achieve easy access by all Batswana. The PLANS TO OPEN CEDA, CIPA AND LEA agency further undertakes this exercise in recognition OFFICES IN CHARLES HILL SUB-DISTRICT of growth of areas, as well as the emerging economic activities and other changes in demographics. MR M. G. J. MOTSAMAI (GHANZI SOUTH): Asked the Honourable Minister of Investment, Trade The recent exercise was undertaken during the and Industry: 2018/2019 financial year which identified Letlhakane and Tsabong as the areas of high priority for office (i) to state whether there are any plans to open Citizen establishment. Letlhakane branch has since been Entrepreneurial Development Agency (CEDA), established in November 2018, and preparations to Companies and Intellectual Property Authority establish Tsabong branch are currently underway. The (CIPA) and Local Enterprise Authority (LEA) agency will conclude the assessment of its branch offices in Charles Hill Sub-District; if so; network during the current second quarter of the financial year, where it will make a determination of (ii) what are the timelines; and further areas being considered for placement of CEDA (iii) if not, why not. branches.

MR MOTSAMAI: Thank your Mr Speaker and Mr Speaker, there are currently no plans to open an correction, Ghanzi South, not Ghanzi North. You will office in Charles Hill Sub-District as the agency serves make people to attack me. Charles Hill Sub-District from its Ghanzi Branch Office. MR SPEAKER: Thank you Honourable Motsamai. COMPANIES AND INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY AUTHORITY (CIPA) ASSISTANT MINISTER OF INVESTMENT, TRADE AND INDUSTRY (MR MOLEBATSI): Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Investment, Trade and Thank you Mr Speaker, good afternoon. Industry does not have plans to open CIPA Offices in Charles Hill. The Honourable Member of Parliament Mr Speaker, in order to remain accessible to Batswana will be aware that almost all company registration at all times, the Citizen Entrepreneurial Development services can be accessed online from anywhere, as long Agency (CEDA) is providing its services through 11 as there is internet connection. Online services have physical branches and three mobile offices. The physical reduced the cost for travel to various CIPA offices as branches are located at Gaborone, Molepolole, Selebi customers can use internet cafes, Kitsong Centres and Phikwe, Maun, Letlhakane, Francistown, Palapye, libraries in the villages to access the CIPA website for Kanye, Kasane, Hukuntsi and Ghanzi. the various services.

The three mobile offices are used to serve in remote or LOCAL ENTERPRISE AUTHORITY (LEA) distant areas that are far from the physical offices. In the past financial year of 2019/20, through the use of Mr Speaker, the Local Enterprise Authority has an office/ roving mobile offices, the agency provided its services branch in Ghanzi which covers surrounding villages to the following areas in the Charles Hill Sub-district: including Charles Hill. In an effort to create awareness Kole, Ncojane, Charles Hill, Karakubis, Tsootsha, of LEA services and enhance service delivery, Ghanzi Chobokwane and Bere. This financial year, the mobile office periodically embarks on outreach and mobile services have continued to be provided in Tsootsha, stops to other villages in the region. Karakubis, Charleshill and Ncojane. Part of the LEA business model review and re- Mr Speaker, I wish to further reiterate that CEDA also strategising was to rationalise the branch network, has a working relationship with Botswana Post which with the view to address various regions peculiarities allows for the public to carry out limited services such and potential; and as much as possible enhance service as payments of CEDA loan accounts and collection of delivery to the citizens. Out of the 13 branches that LEA

26 Hansard No 198 Thursday 3rd September, 2020 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

had prior to re-structuring, there was one in Mochudi Lastly, do you not think that the absence of these offices and the other in Francistown, whist the authority was in Charles Hill, be it for registering of companies, LEA also operating incubators in Pilane and Francistown. or CEDA, as a way of failing the concept which you purport to be yours, which is taking permanent services A strategic decision was taken to relocate the two branches to the people, not mobile services? to the incubation centres in Pilane and Francistown respectively. This move resulted in savings that were MR MOLEBATSI: Honourable Member of Parliament, used to open two new satellite offices in Letlhakane and what I said is that the office that services Charles Hill Hukuntsi in 2019, to provide services to communities in is in Ghanzi, not Hukuntsi. So, as for why we are not the Boteti and Kgalagadi North regions. The Hukuntsi building offices in Charles Hill, the truth is that where office establishment eased the long distance that was we are in regard to the national budget, we cannot afford taken by Kgalagadi North residents to seek services in to build offices everywhere. If there is an office that can Kgalagadi South through the LEA Tsabong branch. On assist those who are nearby… the other hand, Letlhakane office is dedicated to service HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Murmurs)... the whole of Boteti region and capitalise on business opportunities for Small, Medium and Micro Enterprises MR MOLEBATSI: Mr Speaker, please protect me. (SMMEs), largely from the mining activities in the Going forward Mr Speaker… area. This office has also reduced entrepreneurs’ long distance travel to Serowe branch to seek LEA services. HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Murmurs)...

LEA continues to monitor access and business potential HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of order. of all the various locations country-wide and take MR SPEAKER: Listen to the Member, he is answering, appropriate measures subject to resource availability. there is no order. Going forward, LEA is considering the possibility of virtual access through technology which has potential HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Murmurs)... to reach a wider populace of Small, Micro and Medium Enterprises (SMMEs) throughout the country in a cost MR MOLEBATSI: Mr Speaker, the Honourable effective manner. Member was asking about us being able to take amenities in terms of offices to every village, and he Currently, the LEA office in Ghanzi covers all the gave an example of his village, Charles Hill; and I said surrounding villages including Charles Hill. In addition, as the Government we said we would provide some structured visits are carried by LEA staff to areas where assistance using technology, meaning we are entering there are no branches, and this is further complemented into the digital economy. So when one is in Charles by the mobile branch (truck stops). Therefore, at the Hill, they would be able to register a company through moment there are no plans to open an office in Charles CIPA which is currently happening, do you not see this Hill. I thank you Mr Speaker. as taking services to Charles Hill Honourable Member? That is what we are saying. That is why I was explaining MR MOTSAMAI: Supplementary. Thank you Mr that CIPA has made it easier for people to be able to Speaker. Honourable Minister, there are CEDA offices register companies; one just logs in through the internet in Hukuntsi, as you were saying Hukuntsi is a Sub- service that is available in the village. That is what we District under Tsabong, Charles Hill is a Sub-District are doing Honourable Member, we believe we are on under Ghanzi; taking offices to the Hukuntsi Sub- track. I thank you. District is something that I support, but I would like to know which criteria you used to determine that. Do MR TSHERE: Supplementary. Thank you very you know what the word ‘mobile’ means Honourable much Honourable Speaker. I have been listening to Minister? You are referring to everything that is going the Honourable Minister as he has been responding to to Charles Hill as mobile! Mobile? Mobile means you issues about CEDA and LEA; they are not available go there in vehicles or in caravans, temporarily and then at the Mahalapye Sub-District. The entire Mahalapye you leave. Have you catered for the people from farms Sub-District they are not there. My question is, like in that will provide the country with meat, so that they Kgalagadi, how frequent are you in your outreach visits, would be involved in cattle farming businesses, rearing because in Mahalapye we are always on the lookout, of goats, chickens, and so on? hoping to see your team.

Hansard No198 27 Thursday 3rd September, 2020 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

The other thing, when you come to a village like ministry, it is a beautiful idea. We accept it. We can Mahalapye, do you inform people say maybe a week in develop people with such idea. I thank you. advance using loud speakers, telling them that CEDA will be in the village and for how long? I thank you. PROJECT TO BE BUILT AT LOGAGANENG (TSABONG) FOR THE ANTI-POACHING UNIT MR MOLEBATSI: Thank you Honourable Member of Parliament. Sir, when CEDA goes around visiting MR S. J. BROOKS (KGALAGADI SOUTH): different areas, like the Chief Executive Officer (CEO) asked the Minister of Environment, Natural Resources of CEDA was going around with his team, he was in Conservation and Tourism if she is aware of the project Maun, people are informed Honourable Member. We that was supposed to be built at Logaganeng (Tsabong) visit people; we go right where they are. What I was for the Anti-Poaching Unit and state: saying is that, Government is not able to build or establish (i) what is the current status; a CEDA office in every village. I said the offices could only be found in Gaborone, Molepolole, Selebi Phikwe, (ii) which contractor was awarded the tender and at Maun, Letlhakane, Francistown, Palapye and Kanye. As what cost; and for you who comes from Mahalapye, you can visit the nearest office which is the one in Palapye. I thank you. (iii) how much has been spent so far on the project and what is the duration of the contract. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Supplementary. MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENT, NATURAL MR SPEAKER: Last supplementary. RESOURCES CONSERVATION AND TOURISM (MS KERENG): I thank you Mr Speaker, and good MR MOABI: Supplementary. I thank you Mr Speaker. afternoon. Mr Speaker, the Honourable Member Honourable Minister I have been listening to how you asked about a project at Logaganeng in Tsabong, in have been explaining, and you are saying that you will which six porta cabins were supposed to be built for not be able to take LEA or CEDA to every village. I our anti-poaching officers, to assist them in terms of understand. Considering this, do you not think that it is accommodation, as they are providing services in that high time that where there is a LEA office we should have area. a CEDA office as well? Let me give you an example of the LEA office in Masunga, it services five areas being You asked about the current status of the contract; allow Tati East, Tati West, Nkange, Shashe West and Nata- me to explain that it was terminated in February this year Gweta. When you look at the number of people who are because the contractor who was awarded the tender for assisted in Masunga and then they travel to Francistown those porta cabins did not do as agreed in the contract. to go and queue again, do you not deem it necessary for They did not complete what they were supposed to CEDA to go to Masunga, so that all these areas I have complete and we saw it fit to terminate the contract. The mentioned would be able to get assistance in Masunga? contract was worth P3.7 million, and it was awarded to By so doing, I think you would have assisted Batswana a company called Juber Holdings (Pty) Ltd. or the business community who are interested in doing Therefore, since the company was not able to complete business in large numbers. I thank you Mr Speaker. the project, the contract was cancelled. Let me point out MR MOLEBATSI: I thank you Honourable Member. that there were no payments made. Let me also point out Honourable Member, I agree with you that if things that this project has been included in this year’s projects went according to how we desire them to go as the to recommence, and there will be retendering, and we Government, services could reach each and every shall start afresh. I thank you Mr Speaker. village. What you are saying is that we should try by all MR BROOKS: Supplementary. Thank you Mr Speaker. means that every village should have its own office, as Thank you Honourable Minister. One may ask why you I was saying that sometimes where we have a shortfall, are still awarding projects to the same contractor while Botswana Post, since post offices are available in many it is failing to carry out these projects. villages, people should access CEDA, CIPA and LEA services there. The other thing is that where CEDA is, Secondly; how long are we going to wait for the second they should combine with LEA and CIPA, if I got what contractor to be awarded the project for it to go and you said. It is an idea that I can pack and take to my carry on with it? I want you to give me a date as to when

28 Hansard No 198 Thursday 3rd September, 2020 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

the project will recommence, we should not work with question about Ncojane camp because it has many assumptions. Are we going to award it tomorrow or is it sections and other complicated issues which are not at tender stage? easy to address. I will not be able to give you a detailed answer about what specifically happened at Ncojane MS KERENG: Thank you Mr Speaker. I cannot because I am not prepared enough to give detailed give details as to why that project was terminated and answers. When you ask about what causes delays, awarded to another company. A company can tender for transformation is one of the reasons that we give as a three things, and only be able to carry out two projects government when we talk about our change of plans, out of the three. Therefore, that does not mean that the and that we are going to improve our services so that company cannot be awarded other projects and not be they can be implemented on time. awarded others, it also does not mean that the company cannot manage to do other projects and fail to do others. Let me move on to development projects; When we look back at the time when we drafted the budget in As for the dates as to when tenders are going to be April, Committee of Supply Speeches indicated that awarded; I pointed out that they have been included projects drag for the longest time across all Government amongst projects that are going to be done during the ministries which always results in funds not being financial year that ends in March. Maybe I will not utilised, funds which have been budgeted for buildings be able to give a specific date because the plan that I and all infrastructure. Part of the transformation is to try have just presented before Parliament, the approved and make sure that funds which have been allocated are Economic Recovery and Transformation Plan (ERTP) utilised and that buildings and other infrastructures are has included these porta cabins or those structures. constructed in time and that they are of good quality. Maybe we will be able to give you a date at a later date, We have realised that one reason that compelled the after our office confirms what we are planning to do. government to come up with plans to improve services HONOURABLE MEMBER: Supplementary. in terms of infrastructure, was to rectify the delays which are there, you can also see that. One challenge is that MR SPEAKER: Last supplementary Honourable supervisors and the skill to oversee engineering projects Motsamai. that are being carried out might be lacking across all MR MOTSAMAI: Supplementary. Honourable ministries. We are trying to reinforce our ministries so Minister, do you know that even though you are saying as to be able to manage these kind of projects. by March next year, you did the same thing at Ncojane When you say that we can build offices only to have wildlife camp? A plot was secured and you abandoned services accessed at different camps, we are talking about it when you were supposed to start construction. You One Stop Service Centre (OSSC), we are considering did not update the community when you are going to that everyone who wants any service, these offices or relocate the wildlife camp which is in the middle of the buildings should be able to offer different services so village. By the way, when are you going to do it? that people do not travel long distances because we Lastly; why is it that you came up with this brilliant idea know that your constituencies are far apart. We want only for you to abandon it for the longest time without this to even apply at Kang offices. Maybe I should point consulting the community for them to know what is out that we are rectifying the issue of delays. That is happening? transformation. Thank you.

After the department of Wildlife builds these camps, HONOURABLE MEMBER: Supplementary. do you have any intentions to go over the services that GABORONE WEST AND JULIA MOLEFHE you are preaching, to come up with services that will CLINICS regulate the camps that you are building so that you do not build a wildlife camp at Ncojane, and when you are MR C. GREEFF (GABORONE BONNINGTON supposed to access services there you will be told that SOUTH): Asked the Minister of Health and Wellness you can only access those services at Maun and Ghanzi? to state the total number of:

MS KERENG: Thank you Mr Speaker. I wish that (i) doctors stationed at Gaborone West Clinic and the Honourable Member could have tabled a specific Julia Molefhe Clinic (Block 9);

Hansard No198 29 Thursday 3rd September, 2020 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

(ii) nurses at each clinic respectively; There is also high crime rate at Gaborone West but Gaborone West dwellers are forced to walk through the (iii) ambulances allocated to these clinics; and bushes at night to go to the clinic at Block 9 because (iv) if and when the Gaborone West Clinic will start to the Gaborone West Clinic does not operate at night. So operate on a 24-hour basis. the question is, how do you help them when they walk from Gaborone West to Block 9 during the night when ACTING MINISTER OF HEALTH AND it is dark? As we speak, we have high trend of murder WELLNESS (DR KWAPE): Thank you Mr Speaker. cases at Gaborone West, murder cases which take place at night. Tell us how you are going to help Gaborone HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… West dwellers to safely arrive at Block 9 Clinic?

DR KWAPE: I am the acting Minister of Health DR KWAPE: Thank you Honourable Member. Let and Wellness. To answer your question Honourable me start by admitting that I understand the challenges Member, there is no doctor stationed at Gaborone West that you allude to. As you are aware, we once visited Clinic. Even though that is the case, there is a doctor that clinic together to appreciate the situation and find who visits that clinic during the week to go and facilitate how we can assist it. The main challenge is shortage of that clinic. staff in the whole country but we are doing the best we Julia Molefhe Clinic has two doctors who are always can in all health facilities, not only in Gaborone West there in the mornings and one doctor who is always but the country at large, there should be staff to assist there in the afternoon and at night because Julia Molefhe patients at all times. I heard you saying the population operates on a 24-hour basis. The total number of nurses in Gaborone West is high and the crime rate is also at Gaborone West is 24 while there are 28 nurses who high, therefore what can be done? As I explained that are stationed at Julia Molefhe Clinic. transport is available, I want to believe when a patient comes and needs the services of a doctor urgently, an Mr Speaker, on the issue of ambulances, Julia Molefhe ambulance can transport that patient quickly there. Like and Gaborone West clinics have two ambulances each we always report, Government’s plans are underway to and from these two ambulances, one is used to transport improve the structure of Health for Motswana to be able patients while the other one is a small car. So, in short, to access health services anytime, anywhere. Currently each clinic has two vehicles. Honourable Member, we are not yet at that level but it is an issue that is always looked into to ensure that Gaborone West clinic has the maternity ward which Batswana have good health. Thank you. operates on a 24-hour basis. The out-patient consultation takes place from morning up until 1630 hours. Due to HONOURABLE MEMBER: Further supplementary. shortage of staff, there is currently no arrangement for Gaborone West Clinic to operate on a 24-hour basis. MR MAJAGA: Supplementary. Thank you Mr Thank you Mr Speaker. Speaker, thank you Honourable Minister. Since last time the challenge was shortage of facilities, but right MR GREEF: Supplementary. Thank you Mr Speaker. now across the country, there are a lot of clinics which Minister, I was thinking that maybe you should tell are well built, such as Mokgoro Clinic which has a Gaborone West community what to do or where to seek maternity wing, what makes it so hard Honourable assistance of a doctor since the visiting doctor is not Minister to increase staff so that those clinics across there most of the time. What I understand is that nurses the country can operate 24 hours? Even when there is attend patients and then refer them to Julia Molefhe no doctor, at least nurses should be there because the Clinic in Block 9, where there is a doctor. They walk shortage is substantial just as you heard me mention to go and queue there for about 7 hours in order to be Mokgoro Clinic at Dukwi as an example. Thank you. attended by the doctor and sometimes the doctor does not even attend them. So I want to understand how you DR KWAPE: Thank you Mr Speaker, thank you help them when the doctor is not there. Honourable Member. I explained that yes, there is immense shortage of staff but we are doing something Secondly; you are saying that there is currently no plan about that. In terms of doctors, you know that we have for this clinic to operate on 24-hour basis yet it is located University of Botswana (UB) which trains doctors. We in Gaborone West area which has a high population. have nurses training institutions in different areas of

30 Hansard No 198 Thursday 3rd September, 2020 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

Botswana. Therefore, we continue to train our children HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Applause!)… so that upon completion they can assist. You spoke about facilities which are now there which used not to MR MOLALE: Thamaga-Mmasebele-Gamodubu road be there; it is true we have facilities, they can still be which is 15 kilometres, will be graded in this month of improved and every time we have staff that can be taken September 2020. Kubung-Moshaweng road which is 34 there, we do so. I want to confirm to you that students kilometres will also be graded in September. who are training to be nurses, upon completion, we try to It has been realised that some parts of these roads need speed up the process of sending them to health facilities gravelling or what we call spot improvements. The to go and assist Batswana. It is something that we are Roads Department has confirmed that they will try their monitoring at all times to ensure that health services best to do those spot improvements. Thank you Mr as I mentioned, continue to be taken to Batswana. We Speaker. acknowledge the shortage but we are trying to ensure that those assisting can get to where they are needed. MR MOTAOSANE: Supplementary. Thank you Thank you. Honourable Minister, let me thank you that at least you gave dates for grading two roads but for others you just HONOURABLE MEMBER: Further supplementary. mentioned that it will be in September. I do not know if I should tell the people that it will be in September only HONOURABLE MEMBER: Procedure. without the exact date.

GRADING OR GRAVELLING OF SOME HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… ROADS IN THAMAGA-KUMAKWANE CONSTITUENCY. HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)…

MR P. K. MOTAOSANE (THAMAGA- MR MOTAOSANE: Maybe what one can ask the KUMAKWANE): Asked the Minister of Transport Honourable Minister again is, what kind of grading and Communications when the following roads will be is going to be done? Is it just wet grading or just the graded or gravelled: normal grading? I explained that it has been a while since these roads were graded; they have potholes. (i) Thamaga-Lesilakgokong; Therefore, I was expecting you to say, especially concerning Molepolole-Lesilakgokong road, it will be (ii) Kubung-Lesilakgokong to Molepolole; gravelled but I have noticed that you said they will all (iii) Kotolaname-Molepolole; be graded. I do not know if you know how it is to travel from Magagarape which is rocky to Ikago School up (iv) Thamaga-Mmasebele to Gamodubu; and to Molepolole? Kubung road is even worse because I explained last time that students from Kubung who (v) Kubung-Moshaweng. go to junior school at Thamaga can spend two weeks ACTING MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND without going to school. Honourable Minister, if you are COMMUNICATIONS (MR MOLALE): Thank you talking about just grading it, you will just want to cause Mr Speaker. The grading of Thamaga-Lesilakgokong a conflict between my constituents and I. thank you. road which is 22 kilometres is going start week MR MOLALE: Thank you Mr Speaker. On your first th beginning 16 of October. question, I was told that dry grading will be done. When HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Applause!)… I consulted the ministry, I told them that dry grading must be done regularly so that…because the last time MR MOLALE: Kubung-Lesilakgokong to Molepolole, these roads were graded was in November last year. We which is 40 kilometres, will be graded week beginning have requested that there should be a programme where 26th of October. the grader can grade there several times. I believe that my request will be approved. HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Applause!)… HONOURABLE MEMBER: Supplementary. MR MOLALE: The following roads; Kotolaname- Molepolole, will be graded as part of Molepolole- MR MOLALE: Honourable Motaosane, I know those Moshaweng road in September. roads, you remember that we travelled on them that

Hansard No198 31 Thursday 3rd September, 2020 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

other time. It is true that Kubung road needs gravelling. design of this road. I simply narrowed my response to I am told that the Department of Roads is in the process the question which asked about maintaining our existing of sourcing gravel so that when funds are available, roads. Thank you Mr Speaker. we would know where to get it. I agree with you that Kubung road is bad. Thank you. MR SPEAKER: Question 9, 10 and 11, we have to find some other time for them. So, we must now go to MR MOTAOSANE: Further supplementary. Thank Question Without Notice. you. Honourable Minister, the ministry is not telling you the truth, gravel is available. There is actually a QUESTION WITHOUT NOTICE place where they can collect it and they have managed CONDITIONS OF EMPLOYMENT FOR to collect great amount of it at Kubung. We have gravel SCORPIONS EMPLOYED BY THE SOUTH burrow pit which is filled with a lot of gravel at Kubung. EAST DISTRICT COUNCIL AND GABORONE When you go to a place called Mmakgomoyakgosi, CITY COUNCIL there is a burrow pit and it has quality gravel. So they are not supposed to tell you what is not truthful but they MR G. KEKGONEGILE (MAUN EAST): Asked the should be truthful when reporting this thing because that Minister of Local Government and Rural Development gravel is there and it is quality. So all they can do is to if he is aware that qualified Scorpions employed by tell us when they are going to do it because pending South East District Council and Gaborone City Council the… have not reported for duty after their employment and to further clarify: MR SPEAKER: Honourable Motaosane, ask the question! (i) when they will start their duties;

MR MOTAOSANE: The question is, why do they (ii) whether they are paid whilst awaiting posting to tell the Minister that there is no gravel and they are duty stations; still going to find it when the gravel is there? Secondly, how far are they in terms of tarring this road because its (iii) if the ministry intends to see their contracts design has been completed? through; and

MR MOLALE: Thank you Honourable Speaker. (iv) if they will receive their benefits upon completion Honourable Motaosane, I have heard from you that you of their contracts. have gravel and I believe we will go there. I believe I will Later Date. also go there even if Honourable Segokgo does not go because I am also interested in matters which pertains to MR GREEF: On a point of procedure. Thank you my Ministry so that when we negotiate with Honourable Mr Speaker. Perhaps we should assist one another Segokgo, we will understand the kind of gravel which concerning how many supplementary questions are we have which might compel us to start this project as allowed per question because you allow about seven soon as possible. Moreover, I have mentioned that roads supplementary questions on some and one or two are some of the services which we intend to negotiate so on others. Perhaps we should devise a standard as to that they can be handed back to the Councils. how many supplementary questions are allowed per question. Thank you. Another thing is that, we are negotiating so that we can share resources. You will find that Councils have MR SPEAKER: You are quite right. I will allow a graders which are damaged from time to time and maximum of… depending on the question though; three. they do not have enough money to maintain them, just You all can see the result of these many supplementaries. as Honourable Moatlhodi was asking. I believe if we We have not been able to deal with questions which are can agree to share these resources, we will be able to very important. So while I am still here, I may even achieve a lot because we will be able to maintain our reduce them to maximum of two. roads whenever a need arises instead of spending a year without attending to them. Honourable Members, let us now deal with the Bills.

Unfortunately, you will bear with me Honourable Member because I do not know anything about the

32 Hansard No 198 Thursday 3rd September, 2020 MEDIA PRACTITIONERS (REPEAL) BILL, 2019 (NO. 29 OF 2019) Second Reading (Resumed Debate)

MEDIA PRACTITIONERS (REPEAL) followed if someone had died so that proper burial can BILL, 2019 (NO. 29 OF 2019) be made for them. There should not be confusion. Second Reading Another important point is that, the law is made for people and not the other way. So, even if we can say (Resumed Debate) this law is useless, we will have to wait until there is actually something that can replace it when we repeal it. MR SPEAKER: The debate of this Bill is resuming. The Minister has also confirmed that there is an ongoing When the House adjourned last week, Thursday 27th process so, let us not interrupt them. If we interrupt them, August 2020, Honourable Kwape was on the floor and we will be blaming the Minister later on, on the basis was left with eight minutes and 10 seconds. that they failed to do a good job. Let me also emphasise MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS AND that those of us who are on this side of the aisle, we COOPERATION (DR KWAPE): Thank you Mr confirm to the nation that the law which will give the Speaker. When we were responding to this statement media the right to be independent, as Honourable Balopi last time, we agreed that we must not be confused has mentioned last time, it does not only cover those because Government is fully intending to offer freedom who write news or those who report news on the radio. to the media, and not only that, but to also offer peace The media platform is broad and takes place in different and tranquillity. This is also confirmed in our manifesto areas. So when we get there to a point where they are on Page 49 which outlines our intentions, as some self-regulatory, we must have a proper procedure which Members have already said. will guide them.

Moreover, we continue to ensure that the relationship Therefore, I do not support the Motion by Honourable between us and the media continues to be smooth, Keorapetse at the moment. Let me also emphasise that be it with Press Council, Botswana Media and Allied we are doing all the efforts one can do as the ruling Workers Union (BOMAWU) or Editor’s Forum. As party. At times people celebrate when there is delivery His Excellency has mentioned on many occasions that but thereafter criticise the product. I do not want to talk journalists will be free, it is not only a word of mouth, much. but it is also practised. Whenever His Excellency travels MR RAMOGAPI: Clarification. Thank you Honourable or whenever there is something which he has to address, Minister. Let me understand you clearly, you say you he invites journalists so that they can also ask him are refuting Honourable Keorapetse’s Motion, in other questions and they give him advice if there is anything words you are refuting your manifesto? If I hear you which is not properly managed. clearly you are refuting the President’s plea. So clarify Mr Speaker, the other important thing is that radios, that issue. Thank you Honourable. televisions and the internet continue to report news accordingly. So like I said, we are not supposed to DR KWAPE: You are right. You did not hear me be confused when it comes to the fact that we need clearly Honourable. I said the Act will be repealed and the media or journalists to have freedom and to be but it should be replaced with another law. I cited a few independent. Last time the Minister mentioned that examples that even if a person is buried, there should there is an ongoing process which will come up with a be proper arrangements in place unlike what animals law which will enable the media to be self-regulatory. do. I thought I had explained. I agree with the fact that I believe since this is the case, we are not supposed to this law should be repealed but it should not be repealed interrupt their job. without putting anything in place Honourable.

One Member suggested that we have to repeal this law DR GOBOTSWANG (SEFHARE- because it is useless. I will give a common example; RAMOKGONAMI): Thank you Mr Speaker. I stand you cannot just demolish an old structure, you first and to support Honourable Keorapetse on his Motion of foremost have to assess it and come up with a strategy repeal the Media Practitioner’s Act. The reasons have on how you want to demolish it in case it falls on you. been presented that this Act was formulated in 2008 but Another Member talked about death and mentioned it was never implemented since then, therefore, it has to that if a person had died, all we have to do is to simply be repealed. I am quite surprised as I never thought this bury them. No, there are arrangements which have to be issue will be difficult and would take such a long time.

Hansard No198 33 Thursday 3rd September, 2020 MEDIA PRACTITIONERS (REPEAL) BILL, 2019 (NO. 29 OF 2019) Second Reading (Resumed Debate)

We all agree in this House that this is an oppressive law, stop saying it. The main issue is why, and the reason is Honourable Rakgare even defined it well when he said simple; although we all agree, you are refuting because it is an oppressive law. In 2019, they refused to amend a Member of the Opposition, Honourable Keorapetse this Motion. In September 2019 when things got hot tabled the Motion, that is the main reason. There is no in politics, they indicated that it is in their manifesto other reason. I am surprised because when you bring to repeal the law. This issue was later emphasised by Motions we endorse them; we recently supported the the President in May 2020 in a media briefing with Motion tabled by Honourable Letsholo about reserving journalists. He informed the media that he is totally transportation of goods in Botswana for citizen owned against this law as it is oppressive, he even added companies. We endorsed Honourable Letsholo’s something which we have long advocated for that there Motion without looking at the fact that he is a Member should be a law on Freedom of Information. Journalists of the Botswana Democratic Party. We have been and the public should be free to access information supporting Motions tabled by different Ministers; we in Government ministries but still this Freedom of recently supported the Motion to amend the Income Information Bill is not tabled. It now seems like you Tax. In addition, we endorsed the other one of Botswana are against the repeal of this Act. Why the change of Unified Revenue Service (BURS). We supported it heart? That is our argument. What is there to lose after without looking at the fact that you tabled it. the repeal this law? What? HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. DR GOBOTSWANG: I yield for you Honourable Manake. DR GOBOTSWANG: Clarification, I yield. ASSISTANT MINISTER OF AGRICULTURAL MINISTER OF EMPLOYMENT, LABOUR DEVELOPMENT AND FOOD SECURITY (MS PRODUCTIVITY AND SKILLS DEVELOPMENT MANAKE): Clarification. Thank you Mr Speaker. (MR BALOPI): Clarification. Thank you Honourable Thank you Honourable Gobotswang. You are debating Member for Tswapong whom I love very much. Let me well; you have good ideas. It is wrong because we have clarify that no one is denying that it is in our manifesto stated that there are efforts being undertaken yet you still and we still say so. The President said so. Our argument come to Parliament. Of course we want you to help us is that, like we said in our manifesto that this law should rule with the wonderful suggestions people are waiting be repealed, it cannot just be repealed and then leave for. We can come here and debate a Motion of hidden a vacuum. It should be replaced by another law which hunger or something constructive. Honourable Member, governs the freedom of the media fraternity and its do you think it is right to continue discussing something stakeholders. Thank you. which is currently being undertaken? You even quoted DR GOBOTSWANG: Thank you. Let me respond to the President. Thank you. that. The truth is that Government does not have any DR GOBOTSWANG: Thank you Honourable. Never intention to amend this law or repeal it. Just imagine ever take two seconds, next time take one okay? I hear since September 2019, today is it September 2020, your point but our argument is that, if at all we agree a whole year. There is nothing happening, there is no then why are we arguing, why did it take a year? If you Freedom of Information Bill that is coming. There are could have answered that one you could have helped the no efforts to show that they are doing something. case. Why has it taken a year to implement those efforts There is an issue raised by Honourable Balopi, what is you are talking about? the impact if we repeal it? Honourable Members, there Honourable Members, the other reason is that the media are many laws which one can use if the media acted exposes corruption. The main reason why there is a unfairly towards them, they can go to court. You have hindrance to repeal this law as it is inoperable is the gone to court, you know this; suing the media and it corruption of this country because the media exposes also defended itself. Sometimes they win the case, such. They know that if the media can be given the sometimes you do. So there are laws in place one can freedom to regulate themselves, it will give them all the use if you have been misrepresented by the media. The powers and space to expose corruption. Corruption is the argument that we cannot repeal the law without having problem. We read a report by Afrobarometer stating that anything in place is not true and has no merit, so please corruption is high but the problem is that Batswana are

34 Hansard No 198 Thursday 3rd September, 2020 MEDIA PRACTITIONERS (REPEAL) BILL, 2019 (NO. 29 OF 2019) Second Reading (Resumed Debate)

afraid to report it. Corruption is the reason this law here Honourable Morwaeng informing us that we are waiting has been delayed, it will come back with nothing will be for the report on consultation which was supposed to be changed in it, which is the problem we have. If it was here on the 30th of August. I believe that in the very near not for the media, we would not know of the National future, consultation report will be provided, and they Petroleum Fund (NPF), that money has been misused. will move on to amend or repeal this Act in question. Petrol levies have been misused, and the media exposed these issues. If it was not for the media, we would not Even though we are saying this Act should be repealed know that people are allocating themselves farms, we Honourable Members, the World Press Freedom not so would maybe not know what happened about Banyana long ago, Botswana was number 44 out of 180 countries Farms… worldwide, and in Africa Botswana was number five. The recent survey from this body of World Press HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Applause!)… Freedom, Botswana has improved from 44 to 39…

DR GOBOTSWANG: …it is the media. Now that HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Applause!)… is a big issue that we are facing here. I do not know comrade; did you say you want something? MS MAKWINJA: …in Africa, she has improved from five to four, one notch up. Now I agree with Honourable HONOURABLE MEMBER: Elucidation. Manake and Honourable Morwaeng that this issue is still on the table, it is still being dealt with. We agree, now DR GOBOTSWANG: I yield for you, sir. I do not know why you are saying that we do not agree MR RAMOGAPI: Elucidation. You are on the right with the Motion, we are not disagreeing. It is because track Honourable Member. Maybe we should mention the job is being done. Let me stop there. Thank you. that from way back, we have seen journalists being HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Applause!)… detained under the BDP Government. I gave evidence here in Parliament, addressing this issue, and now it HONOURABLE MEMBER: No, it is straight- seems like today they are afraid of it, they do not even forward. want to talk about it sir. MR SPEAKER: Sweet and short. DR GOBOTSWANG: Yes, this is how it is Honourable Members, you cannot disagree with this issue only MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES, GREEN because it came with a Member of Parliament from TECHNOLOGY AND ENERGY SECURITY (MR the Opposition. We should put a stop to this tendency. MOAGI): Thank you Mr Speaker and good afternoon. We should understand that when we come with ideas, Honourable Members, really we have talked a lot about you should agree with them if they are great ideas like this issue, but if you look at where we are from and this idea, you agreed with it. After you agree with it, where we are going, we share the same sentiments that you say no, but we do not agree with it and we cannot the media should be all-inclusive because we are not agree with you. I have pointed out that we come a long talking about newspapers or radio only. We are talking way agreeing with you when you come with ideas, not about the media in various forms, there is a modern looking at who comes with the idea, which Honourable Minister it is, whether it comes with a Member of form, which we can mention here, the one that involves Parliament from BDP because we are always looking the use of the internet that we are talking about, they are at the fact that this person is not advocating for oneself, just too many. rather they are advocating for Batswana. We are also We can also mention advertisements; billboards, not advocating for ourselves, we are advocating for advertising media, which is among them. Now since Batswana. Journalists and workers are not impressed we see that this law has been like this, and Honourable with this Act. Thank you Mr Speaker. Minister has told us that he is busy going all over, ASSISTANT MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION where he is resolving issues like that. Why should we (MS MAKWINJA): Thank you Mr Speaker. Let me now rush, stand in front of a car in motion, and want thank all those who commented on this Act. As the to stop it when it has a driver? I am saying this because Honourable Minister has already said, we have been there is nothing that was left out in what the Honourable talking about this issue for long, and I remember Minister, and even in the BDP Manifesto, since you

Hansard No198 35 Thursday 3rd September, 2020 MEDIA PRACTITIONERS (REPEAL) BILL, 2019 (NO. 29 OF 2019) Second Reading (Resumed Debate)

have it that side Honourable Members, it is page 49. It in the amendment that the Minister will bring. Let us states that commitment to repeal and enact a new law, so try to have a situation whereby we are rectifying, then I that we amend this law. can believe that Honourable Keorapetse is representing the Media Practioners, representing all the interested Even as Honourable Gobotswang was saying that we stakeholders in this matter. sometimes agree, and sometimes we do not agree, why we should force this agreement when we know that at So we should not view this matter as being negated by the end of the day, what we want is the results, that is, this side, instead we are saying, wait for what is missing freedom of the media or a law on self-regulation. These in this Bill, so that by the time it comes it would be things like you always say, we are not supposed to rush in a better state, being presented by the appropriate them, we need to look into everything, especially that Minister. Even the purposes and intentions have been nowadays there are new laws that include the likes of clearly pointed out on page 49 of our manifesto, even electronic media, cyber security and others. in the pronouncements that were made by the President, they are captured. I do not think it is something we have Now if we are talking about this law from 2008, that to debate for a long time. Let me conclude by saying, means during that time, some of the things that were Honourable Member let us wait… amendments to this law were still left behind. Now that the Honourable Minister of Presidential Affairs is MR KGAFELA: Further elucidation. I just wanted working on it, let us be patient so that we allow him to say you should clarify this issue further. In regard to do a diligent job. That is why I do not see why we to lawyers, they have the Law Society and Legal should talk about it at length, we agree with each other, Practitioners Act, which I believe when we talk about let us just request that... its stakeholders, it is not only lawyers; even the nation at large are stakeholders. Now my question is, when we MINISTER OF INFRASTRUCTURE AND talk about the Media Practitioners Act, are journalists HOUSING DEVELOPMENT (MR KGAFELA): the only stakeholders, or does it even include the nation Elucidation. Let me thank you Honourable Member. at large? What are you saying about the people out there, I wanted you to clarify that point, I heard Honourable you and I, who are not Media Practitioners, are we not Dr Gobotswang, I also heard Honourable Dithapelo stakeholders sir? Keorapetse saying, we know that when a person is dissatisfied with a newspaper, they know what to do, MR MOAGI: I thank you Mr Speaker, I thank you and I heard them all reach a point that they have to sue. Honourable Kgafela. Honourable Member, as a nation Now I want you to clarify that point that, is it easier we are all stakeholders. The Editors Forum, Botswana for an ordinary Motswana with a modest income that Media and Allied Workers Union (BOMAWU), Press they can go and sue using that defamation law that is Council of Botswana were mentioned but we do not just so complicated, and a newspaper is represented by a want to only look at those groups because they are for lawyer, when they cannot afford that lawyer? Is it really Media Practitioners. When we are not there as a nation, that easy? Is it not more the reason why there should be as stakeholders, there is nothing that could be reported an oversight authority like lawyers, nurses, accountants, about. Even the good issues that Honourable Dr engineers, all those who are professionals to have a body, Gobotswang talked about, in connection to corruption where one can go to lay a complaint without paying a and others things; these are issues that require each one single thebe? Then they will represent you and sue the of us to be free so that when they report about him or person who has not done right by you. Thank you. her, there would be a place where one could make an appeal, and be content. MR MOAGI: Thank you Mr Speaker. It is true Honourable Kgafela especially because you are an This matter is in order Honourable Members, so we expert there, because it affects everyone, whether it is should allow the Minister responsible to modify and a journalist, whether it is one who is being reported or amend the Bill as he deems fit and then present it to this whoever that has had something reported about them. House and have it become a proper Act that will be put There should also be a place they can go, just like you to use. We should not allow a gap by repealing the Act have been mentioning all the Departments that have and not replacing it with anything. The duration of that professional bodies where they can be assisted. Now gap can be used by those who have ill intentions to do that is why we are saying, we have noted those things things that might bruise you and I, hence we might find

36 Hansard No 198 Thursday 3rd September, 2020 MEDIA PRACTITIONERS (REPEAL) BILL, 2019 (NO. 29 OF 2019) Second Reading (Resumed Debate)

ourselves at a disadvantage. So Honourable Member, up with an Act which will be fully functional, rather let us allow the Honourable Minister to do what he than being skewed Mr Speaker. If we could do this, we is supposed to do, the appropriate thing; and we shall would have done something right for Batswana. support it when it is tabled by the Minister. There are some laws that we once repealed Mr Speaker, MR BOKO: On a point of clarification. Honourable such as the one that put an end to Local Police, and in Minister, I clearly understood what you were saying, that case, we did not come up with any new Act. We including the Honourable Members who have been just repealed it and had the Local Police joining the speaking, right from the beginning of the debate. It Botswana Police. seems we are in agreement regarding what should be Mr Speaker, we date back in terms of saying some laws done. The challenge that we have this side, the reason are not fully functional. If Honourable Keorapetse was why we decided to come up with a Bill like this is that bothered by the fact that the council was not involved this issue was talked about for a long time, and the years since the existence of this Act, it is not the only council. have gone by. We had no idea that you were intending to Honourable Keorapetse, you have to know that we have come up with a new Bill or a new Act. You are fortunate the Directorate of Intelligence and Security (DIS) Act. enough to be sitting in the Cabinet, maybe you are aware. It allows that there should be a committee that will Do you not think you have taken a long time, which has oversee how the DIS operates. Since the 11th Parliament, led us to coming up with something that might replace currently we are in the 12th Parliament, that committee this Act which has been gathering dust where it has been has never existed. If you consider repealing the Media for ten years without implementation? Practitioners Act, I support you, because the President has also agreed that it should be repealed. Maybe MR MOAGI: I thank you Mr Speaker. Honourable even the DIS Act should be repealed, because it is not Boko, if you could look closely, you will notice that our functioning properly. intention has a timeframe, which is the BDP manifesto; this would be a tool that would be guiding us. All the If where you can appeal is encapsulated in the DIS Act, things which we have put up here, we know how they yet we have failed to establish that structure and have should begin. The good part of this matter is that you it in place, and let it be the one that that oversees and have already… checks if DIS is operating properly, the way the Act dictates. So if these structures are not there, it means MR SPEAKER: ...(Inaudible)... the time is up! somehow the Act is not functioning fully, it is not complete. MR REATILE (JWANENG-MABUTSANE): Thank you Mr Speaker. Let me also comment on the Motion HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Applause!)… as presented by Honourable Dithapelo Keorapetse, the Member of Parliament for Selebi Phikwe West. MR REATILE: These are issues that when we have an Act, we should review them going forward. I believe Mr Speaker, I am rising believing that in the time you when we review these Acts it should not be like since have allotted me, I should point out that I would like to Honourable Dithapelo believes journalists write agree with the President of Botswana His Excellency diligently, he is just looking at the fact that they do not Mokgweetsi Masisi, for telling Batswana that they want it; because there is no one who is going to write should give him a mandate to repeal this Act. about DIS issues. Let us review these Acts calmly and Honourable Keorapetse is mainly worried that those see what is good for Batswana and Botswana, not what who are stakeholders, those who should make up the is good for me as Reatile. That is the approach that we council that will be reviewing these issues, did not take should employ when we deal with these Bills. part. Therefore, this Act has never been fully functional Mr Speaker, as we continue I remember that we passed in Botswana. Parliament made it and it passed, although this Bill with heightened emotions and we believed we we are saying it should not be repealed, that there should were sorting out the issue of the media in Botswana. I be another one replacing it, there is no one who can remember that it resembles the one we passed... boldly say it is an Act that is fully functional. It is an Act that was made, but for it not to be fully functional; now MR KGAFELA: On a point of clarification. I thank we have to take a decision to repeal it, and then come you Honourable Member. Let me ask, because I hear

Hansard No198 37 Thursday 3rd September, 2020 MEDIA PRACTITIONERS (REPEAL) BILL, 2019 (NO. 29 OF 2019) Second Reading (Resumed Debate)

those who are in support of a repeal, saying if you have a their characters were defamed. You are still going to query about a journalist, you should go to court; is there represent Batswana the way you have been representing any offer of an alternative besides the court? Once you them. Nothing is going to change, so let us not stress repeal this Act, do you have an offer of an alternative? ourselves. Let us support the President’s promises for Give a Motswana some alternative other than asking he vowed that he is going to ensure that we repeal this them to go to court, which might be expensive and not Act. It is time for us to repeal this Act so as to support so easily accessible to them. Is there an alternative sir? the promises which were made by the President of the Republic of Botswana to Batswana. That is why I MR REATILE: Thank you Mr Speaker. You are asking am highlighting that the President made a promise to a very brilliant question because this Act was just Batswana that, “send me, and when I take over, I will established not so long ago by Parliament of Botswana. make sure that I repeal some Acts which are disturbing, Even before it was established, Batswana could still I will repeal them so that they do not disturb you.” That litigate against the media. Right now, we have to point is all that I am saying Honourable. out that when we cite Directorate of Intelligence and Security (DIS) Act, it emphasises that there should be MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES, GREEN some sort of an establishment where we can air our TECHNOLOGY AND ENERGY SECURITY (MR grievances. What is it called? I forgot what it is called. MOAGI): Clarification Mr Speaker. Thank you Mr That does not mean that people should not litigate Speaker, thank you Honourable Reatile. It seems like against DIS. This establishment was not there before, you are not quoting the whole statement that was made an establishment whereby one can take their complaints by the President. He made it clear that he is going to if and when they are mistreated by DIS. Complaints are repeal this Act and replace it, not just to repeal it. So still taken to the Courts of Law even when this kind Honourable, quote exactly what the President said. of establishment is still not there. This means that if Thank you. we see Batswana still taking matters to the Courts of MR REATILE: Thank you Honourable Moagi. Thank Law even after we repeal this Act, they will not be lost you Mr Speaker. Honourable Moagi, I believe that when Honourable, they will still be on the right track because we go ahead and repeal this Act, people who draft the Judges are the ones who reconciles people. They do not Law are going to be quick to bring another Act which say, “go on and fight so that we can see the strong one” will replace this one. So when we do not do anything, they will ask someone what they are concerned about, even though the President promised Batswana that he how they have been mistreated and that person will tell is going to repeal this Act, it will seem like we were their side of the story. When one narrates their concerns, not telling them the truth. It is known all over that the Judges will then tell them if they have a strong case or not and that is when the Courts of Law will rule in this Act is going to be repealed, and that it is going their favour or against. That is why I pointed out that to be replaced with another one. There is no way any when an Act is like this… Member of Parliament can disapprove the Act which will be replacing the one which is going to be repealed MR KGAFELA: Further clarification. I thank you because it is one of the promises that the President made Honourable Member. Do I hear you correctly that you to Batswana, he promised them that that is going to are offering Batswana no alternative to litigation sir? They must litigate and nothing else but litigate; no happen in Parliament of Botswana and in Botswana. It alternative? I am talking about the media sir, not DIS. is the beginning and there is going be the end. We will start by repealing the Act and later on replace it. That is MR REATILE: Honourable Kgafela, I am still saying how these issues are Honourable Member of Parliament that this Act was established not so long ago and that for Ramotswa. So, let us make sure that we support it was not replacing any law. When it was established the President by all means even though Honourable recently without replacing any Act, Batswana could still Keorapetse is ahead of him. Let us support this because sue the Media. Today I am still saying that if we repeal it is our promise. Thank you Mr Speaker. it, Batswana will still litigate against the Media at the Courts of Law. Honourable, this is not some sort of a HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Applause!)… miracle. It means that just like in the past, you can still represent Batswana who are suing the media, Batswana MR SPEAKER: I call upon the mover to reply to the who believe that they have been misrepresented or that debates. Honourable Keorapetse.

38 Hansard No 198 Thursday 3rd September, 2020 MEDIA PRACTITIONERS (REPEAL) BILL, 2019 (NO. 29 OF 2019) Second Reading (Resumed Debate)

MR KEORAPETSE (SELEBI PHIKWE WEST): established, Botswana had 42 years as an independent Thank you Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, let me start by state. What you have to ask yourselves is how and quoting what we said in our Umbrella for Democratic what was governing the media at that time. That is the Change (UDC) manifesto, I will quote Page 20. It is a question that you failed to answer, how things were like Chapter on Governance, Anti-Corruption and Human before this Act was established. The other question that Rights. you were supposed to answer is that 54 years later, this law has been inoperable. In other words, things were MR SPEAKER: Go ahead. still going to be the same if it was not there for 54 years. MR KEORAPETSE: “Press freedom is compromised You have rather failed to clarify how things were like by regulation, especially a Media Practitioners Act that before we established this Act. should have no place in a democracy. Radio Botswana, Mr Speaker, maybe I should start with the point that Botswana Television and the Government social media was raised by Honourable Kgafela, the point in which platforms are intensely partisan. They promote the he said that he is not sure if Section 86 is not going to President, his party, and the Government rather than be violated when we repeal this Act, maybe I should inform and educate in a non-partisan manner. Access explain to him that there is no way Section 86… to information is generally constrained. Consequently, we have an opaque Government under which citizens HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification Mr cannot demand and receive information that citizens in Speaker. true democracies have as a matter of cause. A Freedom MR KEORAPETSE: No, I have not even started. of Information Act, which the Government promised Section 86 is not anyhow saying that we should not more than five years ago is yet to materialise”. This is repeal the Act without replacing it. There is no explicit what we said in our UDC manifesto, which was titled requirement that when you repeal, you have to re-enact. “Decent Jobs, Decent Lives, it is Possible.” There are different types of repeals Mr Speaker; there Mr Speaker, Honourable Members stressed the point is repeal with no enactment, repeal with re-enactment that what we are discussing here is found in the BDP and partial repeal. There are different repeals. What we manifesto. Mr Speaker, let me clarify that I have started are asking for today is repeal with no immediate re- being active in politics from as far back as 1999 when enactment. If in future we agree that there should be I was doing Form 4, and there was a book that I never re-enactment of the Media Practitioners Act, which we parted with. It was called the Democratic Development do not favour on our side, because we believe that the Programme (DDP) and Botswana Congress Party self-regulation which is in place, is adequate, it can be (BCP) manifesto in 1999. When I went to the debating improved where possible. tournaments, I made sure that I have them because they addressed democracy issues of Botswana. What HONOURABLE MEMBER: Elucidation. I remember is that, media freedom issues are from far back. Botswana National Front (BNF), at that time MR KEORAPETSE: Let me respond to the issues Honourable Mthimkhulu was still a member of BNF that you raised sir. Honourable Kgafela, you said and they mostly vouched for media freedom. So most there are several professions that you listed which are of you here think that these issues are new because they being regulated. Then you asked a straightforward appear for the first time in the BDP 2019 manifesto, but question that, why should this profession not supposed the truth of the matter is that they are not new. We have to be regulated and the answer to you sir is that, this been talking about them for the longest time. profession is being regulated and I will explain. Again, I want to explain that, there is no requirement that all Mr Speaker, when Honourable Morwaeng took the professions should be regulated under any section of floor, he mentioned that this law is inoperable. He the Constitution. You must ask yourselves, how was further went on to say that we cannot repeal and not this profession regulated? Let me answer how this replace this Act. He stated that there is need to have profession has been regulated, but part of this answer consultation. Most of the BDP members who rose was mentioned by Honourable Lucas. Honourable supported what he was saying. Maybe I should start by Kgafela you are a lawyer, you have been appearing agreeing that this law has been inoperable. Honourable before our courts, the first thing you ought to know is Members, you will remember that when this Act was that there is case law, Judicial precedent. So this issue

Hansard No198 39 Thursday 3rd September, 2020 MEDIA PRACTITIONERS (REPEAL) BILL, 2019 (NO. 29 OF 2019) Second Reading (Resumed Debate)

that there will be lacuna, there is case law where before lacuna that you mentioned will be there. Press Council a journalist writes his or her story, he or she should be talks of comment conjecture and fact, and the rules of mindful of it especially in issues such as defamation. profession. They are governed by the Press Council. That is the first thing I want to talk about. It talks of undue pressure or influence, public interest, payment for information, reporting of investigation, Mr Speaker, issues that there will be lacuna, no, those privacy, intrusion into grief or shock, interviewing are issues meant to mislead the nation. Case law we are or photographing children, so many things. There is referring to decisions or rulings made by High Court. A nothing that is not covered in the Press Council. What case in which Kgafela Kgafela, one of the best human rights lawyers to have been produced by this country, you are saying that if the law is repealed there will representing Mr Maruping Dibotelo and won that case be lacuna is misleading the nation, you want excuses of defamation of character against Mmegi newspaper. to oppose what Honourable Keorapetse is bringing to There was another case in which Phillip Dikgang Parliament. There is nothing like lacuna. Makgalemele was suing Yarona FM and he won. There There is a plethora of laws, Honourable Kgafela you was another case of Mbiganyi Charles Tibone, the are a lawyer, you ought to know this. Honourable then Government Minister who was suing, I think it Mthimkhulu, you are a lawyer, that is supposed to be was Sunday Standard. The fourth one was Honourable common knowledge to you that journalists, apart from Fidelis Mmilili Molao, who also sued and among the the existence of Press Council and case law, there are ones I have mentioned, he was the only one whose several laws regulating journalists which most of them case was dismissed by court. BDP hypocrisy is when were mentioned by Honourable Lucas. Let us start Honourable Kgafela rises up and says, is litigation with Botswana Communications Regulatory Authority the only avenue available. That is, it is prohibitively (BOCRA) which regulates radio stations, it is a straight exorbitant or …(Inaudible)… to that effect. However, forward law. When we go for elections, they know how earlier, Honourable Mokgethi responded to a question I asked and said if there are Batswana who do not have they are supposed to regulate themselves. If you want resources, Legal Aid can come in and assist. This was something from them, they will refer you to BOCRA said by a BDP Minister. Another BDP Minister is asking as an authority which regulates them. Among these where do I think people will get money? laws, there is Penal Code which addresses issues of criminal defamation, we also have National Security HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Applause!)… Act, Directorate on Corruption and Economic Crime (DCEC) Act, Directorate of Intelligence and Security MR KEORAPETSE: You see, that is the hypocrisy that finally catches up with you, because you are (DIS), Police, (BDF) and insincere in all matters brought before Parliament by the Cinematograph Act, there is a plethora of legislation Opposition. Honourable Kgafela… regulating journalism.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Clarification. Let me reiterate a point which was raised by Honourable Lucas that we agree that laws which abuse journalists MR KEORAPETSE: I want to answer your questions or hamper them from doing their job must be amended. since they are many. Therefore, I could use minimal Some of them Mr Speaker, I have already mentioned. interruption Honourable Members. Honourable If you take DCEC Act for example, there is a portion Kgafela, we have Press Council of Botswana which which says you cannot report on ongoing corruption talks about Botswana Code of Ethics, general standards investigations. However, the truth is, journalism which regulate journalists and general duties of a sometimes leads the pack of investigations while media practitioner. It talks about good practice which the investigator is following behind an investigative encompasses accuracy, correction of inaccuracy, journalist. It happened in several cases. I was working distortion, rebuttal and right of reply, which was in DCEC, weekly they take newspapers and check to mentioned by the Vice President. If a newspaper see if there is any report of corruption which is worth defamed you, you do not need to run to court. First, following. When you look at the Corruption and you approach the Press Council and request them for Economic Crime Act (CECA) on journalism, you can right of reply to a certain newspaper. There is no lacuna, see that they are colliding and there is need to amend. there has never been a lacuna and there will never be a So there is no lacuna.

40 Hansard No 198 Thursday 3rd September, 2020 MEDIA PRACTITIONERS (REPEAL) BILL, 2019 (NO. 29 OF 2019) Second Reading (Resumed Debate)

On the issue of consultation, Honourable Morwaeng MR KEORAPETSE: …those that you are claiming wrote a letter on the 3rd of August, when the Bill was that you are consulting are saying that nothing has gazetted in December 2019. If that is not mischief Mr changed; they are still standing their ground to the fact Speaker, then I do not know what that is. Botswana that they do not want this law and it has to be repealed. Media and Allied Workers Union (BOMAWU) and That is what they are saying. You also decided to consult Media Institute of Southern Africa (MISA) went to them again in the form of writing in August, when you Duma FM radio to explain that they were promised as have promised before the elections that you are going to journalists by President Masisi that after winning the repeal the law, they are saying that it is a clear indication elections, he is going to repeal the Media Practitioners that truth is not found in you concerning what you have Act. There was no issue that the Act be amended. agreed with them. Honourable Mthimkhulu kept on saying, “we want this Act amended, the President said it should be amended.” MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Honourable Keorapetse, The President has never said it should be amended. this time we are caught up by COVID-19, we have done Give me a quotation where the President said it should two hours, we should adjourn for 30 minutes. be amended. The President has been very clear, repeal! PROCEEDINGS SUSPENDED AT 4:04 P.M. FOR repeal! BDP posted on their page when we were going APPROXIMATELY 30 MINUTES for the 2019 elections saying, we are going to repeal, not only repeal, but bring Freedom of Information Act. The PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 4:34 P.M. consultation in question Mr Speaker; 2015 Honourable “EXCHANGE OF SPEAKERSHIP” Dr Butale came with a Motion to Parliament, the answer was, we are consulting, 2015! 2018 I bring a Bill to MR SPEAKER (MR PULE): Order! Order! Parliament, I am told, we are still consulting. 2019, Honourable Members, when we went for tea break, 2020 we are still consulting, letters are written on the Honourable Keorapetse was on the floor. 3rd of August 2020 with the response that, we are still MR KEORAPETSE: Thank you Mr Speaker. What we consulting. That is why I am telling you that there is no have explained in our Umbrella for Democratic Change truth, no sincerity. There is bad faith, from 2008, this Government has been telling us that they are consulting. (UDC) manifesto on the paragraph that talks about Mr Speaker, the challenge which seems to be there is, governance Mr Speaker, we stated that it is important to who brought the Bill. Therefore… repeal this law. His Excellency and his party have also vowed to repeal this law. So, it is clear that they have HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. failed to give us good reasons why this law cannot be repealed. We are saying Mr Speaker, first repeal of this MR KEORAPETSE: …the main problem that we law will leave self-regulation, case law, press council have Mr Speaker has everything to do with the Member and other existing laws that regulate the media platform. that brought the Bill, this proposal should be opposed because...I do yield to the Minister in the Presidency, Secondly; we are saying let us come up with a law which with your permission Mr Speaker. addresses Freedom of Information Act. Honourable Saleshando brought a proposal in the 10th Parliament and MINISTER FOR PRESIDENTIAL we know what happened at that time. His Excellency Dr AFFAIRS, GOVERNANCE AND PUBLIC Masisi who was a Minister in the Office of the President ADMINISTRATION (MR MORWAENG): Point at that time, told us that it was not necessary to approve of clarification. Thank you Mr Speaker. Honourable, the proposal by Honourable Saleshando. As a Minister, the documents might have been produced recently but he gave us an assurance that he will bring that law in consultation started last year in December and it is still the House. Unfortunately, we are discussing this law ongoing. This means, those documents that you are because it has not been brought to this House up to talking about do not mark the beginning of consultation now. Mr Speaker, we as Members of UDC are saying, but they are a continuation of a consultation that started let us review the Constitution, particularly in respect last year in December which is still ongoing. of the media, Section 12 (1) because experts have also MR KEORAPETSE: Honourable Speaker, what I am mentioned that what the Constitution gives through saying is … Section 12 (1), takes back 12 (2). So we are saying one; review the Constitution, the Constitution must be HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. explicit on protection of news reporters.

Hansard No198 41 Thursday 3rd September, 2020 MEDIA PRACTITIONERS (REPEAL) BILL, 2019 (NO. 29 OF 2019) Second Reading (Resumed Debate)

Secondly; the Constitution has to bind Parliament not to make laws which abuse the media. This thing has been suggested by Botswana Congress Party (BCP), Botswana National Front (BNF) and UDC that we should review the Constitution so that Parliament is prohibited from enacting laws that prohibit freedom of expression and of the media.

Mr Speaker, we have emphasised that it is important to review the laws which I have listed such as the Penal Code, Immigration Act, Cinematograph Act, National Security Act and others. Mr Speaker, let me explain that, these laws are limiting the media and if it continues to be like that… I have also talked about the law which Members like Honourable Billy mentioned that we have to repeal and replace it with something and I believe I have addressed it. This law is tarnishing the good name of Botswana because if it remains in our statutes, it is referenced. Anyway, it is not surprising that the ruling party and its leader, His Excellency Dr Masisi is operating in this manner. We know that there is a clip from Gabz-FM, I can send it to you if you want Mr Speaker. His Excellency Dr Masisi was saying, ‘’we were deceiving them or ways to that effect, Gabz-FM officials thought we are supporting them. Members of Domkrag, you must go to Facebook and call yourself Tom so and so.” HONOURABLE MEMBER: Yes! MR KEORAPETSE: So this person is a threat to the media and has been deceiving both the Former President Dr Khama and the media... HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Applause!)... MR KEORAPETSE: …it is President Masisi who also deceived them through the Media Practitioners Act which he mentioned that he is going to repeal. We are debating this issue today because he has not yet repealed it. You have also failed to give reasons why…

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification.

MR KEORAPETSE: …Honourable Balopi, you were depending on majority rules so a time has come for you to prove your capability through that yet again. You have failed to give reasons, all the Members who were trying to defend you have also failed to explain the law as well as give good reasons.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Applause!)...

MR KEORAPETSE: So let us go for voting so that your numbers can decide because that is all you take pride in to defeat us. Thank you Mr Speaker.

MR SPEAKER: Order! Honourable Members.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS:…(Murmurs)…

MR SPEAKER: Order! Order!

HONOURABLE MEMBERS:…(Murmurs)…

MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Honourable Members.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… …(Laughter!)…

Question put andDivision called for.

MR SPEAKER: So we go voting. Make sure that all the doors are closed, no one comes in and no one leaves the House.

..Silence...

MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Honourable Members, I believe you know the procedure which we have to follow. Order! Order!

42 Hansard No 198 Thursday 3rd September, 2020 MEDIA PRACTITIONERS (REPEAL) BILL, 2019 (NO. 29 OF 2019) Second Reading (Resumed Debate)

Member’s Name Aye No Abstain Absent His Excellency Dr Mokgweetsi Eric Keabetswe Masisi √ Honourable Kgotla Kenneth Autlwetse √ Honourable Mpho Balopi √ Honourable Yandani Boko √ Honourable Sam Justice Brooks √ Honourable Honest Buti Billy √

Honourable Dr Edwin Gorataone Dikoloti √ Honourable Dr Unity Dow √ Honourable Karabo Socraat Gare √ Honourable Dr Kesitegile Gobotswang √ Honourable Christian Greeff √ Honourable Kainangura Caterpillar Hikuama √ Honourable Liakat Kablay √ Honourable Kenny Kiniotiro Kapinga √ Honourable Goretetse Kekgonegile √ Honourable Dithapelo Lefoko Keorapetse √ Honourable Phildah Kereng √ Honourable Mmusi Kgafela √

Honourable Tshekedi Stanford Khama √ Honourable Dr Lemogang Kwape √ Honourable Leepetswe Lesedi √

Honourable Sethomo Lelatisitswe √

Honourable Aubrey Lesaso √ Honourable Dr Douglas Letsholathebe √ Honourable Thapelo Letsholo √ Honourable Friction Tshoganetso Leuwe √

Honourable Taolo Boipuso Lucas √ Honourable Polson Majaga √ Honourable Nnaniki Wilhemina Tebogo Makwinja √ Honourable Beauty Manake √ Honourable Tumisang Mangwegape-Healy √ Honourable Baratiwa Mathoothe √ Honourable Dr Thapelo Matsheka √ Honourable Wynter Boipuso Mmolotsi √ Honourable Kagiso Thomas Mmusi √ Honourable Simon Nkosana Moabi √

Hansard No198 43 Thursday 3rd September, 2020 MEDIA PRACTITIONERS (REPEAL) BILL, 2019 (NO. 29 OF 2019) Second Reading (Resumed Debate)

Honourable Lefoko Maxwell Moagi √ Honourable Pono Pearson Patson Moatlhodi √ Honourable Setlhabelo Naser Modukanele √ Honourable Anna Maria Mokgethi √ Honourable Eric Mothibi Molale √ Honourable Fidelis Macdonald Molao √ Honourable Molebatsi Shimane Molebatsi √ Honourable Talita Monnakgotla √ Honourable Kabo Neale Sechele Morwaeng √ Honourable Mokwaledi Ignatius Moswaane √ Honourable Palelo Keitseope Motaosane √ Honourable Motsamai Gabantema Jelson Motsamai √ Honourable Dumezweni Meshack Mthimkhulu √ Honourable Kefentse Mzwinila √ Honourable Kgoberego Nkawana √ Honourable Tumiso Macdonald Rakgare √ Honourable Onneetse Ramogapi √ Honourable Mephato Reatile √ Honourable Oabile Regoeng √ Honourable Dumelang Saleshando √ Honourable Thulagano Merafe Segokgo √ Honourable Peggy Serame √ Honourable Machana Ronald Shamukuni √ Honourable Johane Luther-Tine Thiite √ Honourable Dr Never Tshabang √ Honourable David Tshere √ Honourable Slumber Tsogwane √

…Silence…

MR SPEAKER: Honourable Members, the results of voting are here. “Present” - 41, “Ayes” - 15, “Noes” - 26, “Abstention” - 0, “Absent” - 22. Honourable Members, the Noes have it.

Question put and negated.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Applause!)…

44 Hansard No 198 Thursday 3rd September, 2020 PRISONS (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2019 (NO. 26 OF 2019) Second Reading

BILL procedures. In the past the Government only paid the suspected officers half salary and discontinued some PRISONS (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2019 allowances. It was a practice that was there until the (NO. 26 OF 2019) Public Service Act was introduced by Parliament in Second Reading 2008, and later implemented in 2010. After it was amended Mr Speaker, the prison officers, MR KEORAPETSE (SELEBI PHIKWE WEST): police officers and soldiers were left out. These three, Thank you Mr Speaker. Members have seen this Bill, it were now deprived of the right that was given to every was gazetted on the 6th December, 2019. I will read the public officer. It is not even every public officer, but memorandum in English but will speak Setswana when those who are in senior positions. There is Permanent it comes to talking points if you permit me Mr Speaker. Secretary to the President, that one is the top man or MR SPEAKER: Go ahead Honourable Member. woman if she can be a woman. It happened that one of the Permanent Secretaries to the President was (suspended), MR KEORAPETSE: Mr Speaker, I beg to present the and with pay. It has happened that four High Court Prisons (Amendment) Bill, 2019 (No. 26 of 2019). A Judges were suspended Mr Speaker and this whole time draft of the Bill is intended to be presented as set out when they were on suspension, they were paid their below. The object of the Bill Mr Speaker, is to amend salaries in full. Right now I believe that there is a Judge Section 52 of the Prisons Act (Cap 21:03), which who right now even though they are not suspended, they mandate the withholding of a portion of the salary of a are not working. So Mr Speaker, I am now wondering prison officer interdicted under the Act or any other law, why the disciplined forces have been left out? Let us get by ensuring that there is uniformity in terms of treatment into the reasons why Parliament in 2008 took a decision of prisons officers and other Government employees to pay public officers their full salaries whilst they had similarly placed. This is achieved by deleting Section 52 pending cases. The reasons given are the ones we are (2) and (3) of the Act. Mr Speaker, the Bill is as I have putting on the table as Umbrella for Democratic Change presented it. It seeks to amend Section 52 by deleting (a) (UDC) today that, they should also consider prison Subsection 2 and (b) deleting Subsection 3. officers, soldiers and police officers with these Bills that Mr Speaker, you will recall that the Public Service Act we have already presented. was passed by Parliament in 2008 and implemented The first reason, presumption of innocence until proven in 2010. The objective of this Act was to amend a few otherwise. It is a basic principle of the law that you are issues we always talk about in our manifestos as the guilty only if a competent court of law, a tribunal which Opposition parties, DDPs, democracy alerts, Pamphlet was set up, or a disciplinary committee which was set No. 1 and other papers advocating for public servants up, has found you guilty. That is where and when action to be allowed to unionise or join unions because at can be taken; presumption of innocence until proven that time they were joining associations. One of the otherwise. That is the main reason that brought this issue amendments which were made that time Mr Speaker here in 2008 when the Public Service Act was amended. was that, Section 35 (3) of Public Service Act was inserted which I seek permission to read Mr Speaker. Let us get into the second reason Honourable Speaker. It was realised that people’s lives were being destroyed. MR SPEAKER: Go ahead. One could face a trial that could involve police officers, MR KEORAPETSE: “It says, “An employee’s salary DCEC or any other law enforcing agency. We have a shall not be withheld during the period of his or her problem of backlog of cases in Botswana. One can take suspension.” What the Public Service Act is saying five years having a pending court case. You will keep is that, when an employee is accused of an offence, going to court while on half salary, and your allowances whether that offence was committed in their workplace having been discontinued. What happens now since or outside, maybe being suspected of a crime by you have committed your salary to pay for a mortgage, the Directorate on Corruption and Economic Crime car, school fees in private schools because you were (DCEC), police officers, or any other law enforcement avoiding poor education results in Government schools? agency, or they have been accused of an offence at What now happens is that, the car and the house will be work where they are suspected to have violated certain repossessed, children will be left stranded and families

Hansard No198 45 Thursday 3rd September, 2020 PRISONS (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2019 (NO. 26 OF 2019) Second Reading

break apart Mr Speaker because of this, and then when Permanent Secretary to the President? Can you hold you go to court to hear your judgment, the judge finds him or her to a high moral or whatever standard than the you not guilty. The moment he tells you that, instead Judge of the High Court or a Cabinet Minister? I once of being happy that you are not guilty, you are filled asked a question in Parliament and I was told that, there with sorrow because the family is broken up, the car are about eight Honourable Ministers who have been and house are gone, children have five years attending investigated on issues of corruption. We know that some a public school yet you could have paid for the right of them were accused number one at court in the morning, school. and in the afternoon they are Honourable Member, answering questions and presenting Government papers Parliament realised this with public officers, now today in Parliament on a full salary. Do you mean that you the UDC (Umbrella for Democratic Change) is saying, can take a Constable from prisons and hold him or her Parliament should extend this gesture to prison officers. to a much higher standard than a Minister, a Member Before I came here, I received a message from a prison of Parliament, a Judge, or a Permanent Secretary to officer’s spouse, complaining that his wife has been in the President? I do not agree because of this reason. I indictment for a very long time and they have serious believe that Honourable Members, let us be kind and problems. This Bill came at the right time, and what we compassionate to these officers and relieve them of the are praying for is that, the ruling party will listen, they challenges they are facing . I thank you Mr Speaker and will not boast about their numbers and disregard you I move. without giving reasons. There are reasons that he gave me, which I will not state in Parliament. Those are the MR SPEAKER: The floor is open for debate. problems regarding this issue Mr Speaker. MINISTER OF DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND Honourable Members, these are our reasons that, SECURITY (MR MMUSI): I thank you Mr Speaker. already Mr Speaker, there is a problem with the conditions of service for prisons officials, like shortage HONOURABLE MEMBER: … (Inaudible)… of accommodation, low salaries. When you look at all MR MMUSI: You…(Laughter!)... I had invited you the security forces, they are the ones who are in the to come to my office to talk, and you refused. So you lowest stratum with regards to their salaries. Right now are the one whom people are going to lose hope in. Mr if you look at the most senior, being the Commissioner, Speaker let me explain that the duty of law enforcement I believe he is packed at FO. If you look at the gap officers is to protect the nation. Therefore it is important between him and the one that comes after him, it is very for them to do their duty with due diligence and extreme high. Mr Speaker, in addition to the poor conditions of caution. Their discipline among the nation should be service, their problems are now exacerbated by the fact high. We know that law enforcement officers are people that, when they are suspected to have committed an who abide by the law at all times. It is important for us to offence, their salaries are reduced instead of being paid know that they enforce the law. Upon their employment, full salaries. they are checked. They go through a serious rigorous Mr Speaker, this Bill is really straight-forward, I think vetting process. Time and again they are exposed to that those who were campaigning during elections some serious training, which shows them how they are saying they represent all as well as disciplined forces, supposed to operate, and the number of hours they are today is the opportunity for them to prove that indeed supposed to work, and then they take an oath. These are they are representing prisons officials and other public officers who take oath when they resume their duties. officers like soldiers and police officers, who are facing We know that these people wear uniform on a day-to- challenges of being accused of committed offences. day basis when they are on duty, so that they are held in high regard. Mr Speaker, there has been a reasoning that disciplined forces should be held to the highest standard of With regards to what Honourable Keorapetse has just discipline. People who are saying this, especially those presented before us, I would like to explain to this House from the ruling party, you will note that, it is a very that, in August 2017, Honourable Keorapetse tabled hypocritical statement when you look at the fact that, a similar Motion, a Private Members Bill. Everything in the past like I have indicated, you could not hold a was explained to him. Botswana Prison Service was junior who is a constable to a higher standard than a created by an Act of Parliament, Section 5 of the Prison

46 Hansard No 198 Thursday 3rd September, 2020 PRISONS (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2019 (NO. 26 OF 2019) Second Reading

Act Chapter 21:03 of the Laws of Botswana. It is a justified that a portion of the officer’s salary be withheld disciplined organisation subject to the code of conduct during interdiction, since such an officer will not be under Section 46 of Act and it is also defined as a discharging the full duties and responsibilities. disciplined service by Section 19 of the Constitution of Botswana. Prison officers as members of disciplined Mr Speaker, the Commissioner, in ensuring that he service and law enforcement officers… expresses his power fairly and reasonably, considers the officer’s take-home pay to determine the portion. That MR SALESHANDO: On a point of order. I just wanted was basically what was said by Honourable Member to remind the Honourable Minister that he cannot of Parliament that if your salary is taken from you, start debating in Setswana and then switch to English they always sit around the table to determine what is and relax. According to the Standing Orders, he has your take-home, what are your expenses and what to choose either Setswana or English and stick to the are your overheads. All these things are taken into language he would have chosen. consideration by the Commissioner. They take into serious consideration all these things that you are not MR SPEAKER: Honourable Mmusi, choose the affected at home but the discipline part is enforced. language that you want to use. MR SALESHANDO: On a point of clarification. When MR MMUSI: Honourable Keorapetse was also using Honourable Dithapelo Keorapetse speaks, I understand two languages Mr Speaker. how you are explaining the responsibility of the prison MR KEORAPETSE: On a point of procedure. When I warders, and you are comparing them with others. The started, I said the memorandum is written in English and Judges of the High Court are also trained. For them to I made a request from you to read it out in English, then be trained as Judges, they need to have a qualification. I switched to Setswana because it is the language that I They also wear uniform. All the reasons you gave, they chose. So, he wants to put it as if I was out of procedure. also take an oath, and they have to abide by the law at all times. Are you saying a Prison Warder’s responsibility MR SPEAKER: You are correct, proceed Honourable is above that of the Judges? Just as a Judge gets his or Mmusi. her salary, a prison warder does not receive theirs? You will pardon me if I used up most of your time. MR MMUSI: Thank you Mr Speaker. I was saying, Prison Warders as members of the disciplined service, MR MMUSI: Thank you Mr Speaker. Sir, I agree with law enforcement officers are expected to abide by strict you that the Judges also take oath, but they are not a disciplinary code of conduct and ethics hence their disciplined force, Prison Warders are a disciplined treatment and conditions. It is therefore necessary to force, and that is what we must understand. That is the have laws that enforce strict adherence to disciplinary code of conduct, which is critical in the maintenance of difference, their regulations differ there. So allow me good order and discipline within the service. to say, interdicting an officer on reduced or no pay is a practice in prison services across the world. We know Section 52 of the Prisons Act addresses act of deviation that even in the region and countries like Zambia, from the disciplinary code of conduct and therefore, it is Kenya, Namibia and other neighbouring countries, this important that it is punitive enough to deter officers from is done. deviation. Therefore, deleting Sub-Section 2 will defeat the purpose of this law. It is also important to retain Sub- MR GREEFF: On a point of clarification. I thank you Section 3 because it provides for the reimbursement Honourable Minister, I am seeking clarification so that of the portion that was withheld during the period of when I want to support you I would have understood interdiction. Should the officer be acquitted, it further what you were saying. I would like you to explain to me accords the Commissioner of prisons authority to decide what portion to reimburse should the officer be how you assist as the prison services, an prison officer dismissed or convicted. Circumstances that may lead who has been interdicted and is paid half salary but has or result in prison officer being interdicted are; after a committed 80 percent of their salary? If they have charge has been laid against him or her, a charge is only debts and they also pay their children school fees using laid after due investigation has been carried out and their salary, and it is discovered that their net salary is when there is enough evidence to prosecute. It is also too small to cover these things, how do you assist them?

Hansard No198 47 Thursday 3rd September, 2020 PRISONS (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2019 (NO. 26 OF 2019) Second Reading

MR MMUSI: Thank you Member of Parliament. I HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… will try to respond in Setswana because he asked me in Setswana Mr Speaker. I request to respond in Setswana. MR MMUSI: Sir!

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)…

MR SPEAKER: Go ahead. MR MMUSI: …(Laughter!)... Thank you Honourable. I want to go back to my preamble Mr Speaker, which MR MMUSI: Thank you. I presented in Setswana that, when you are wearing a uniform, you lose a lot of your constitutional rights, you LEADER OF THE HOUSE (MR TSOGWANE): lose them when you are in the disciplined force. Your Procedure. Mr Speaker, I believe that we cannot make right of association, freedom of speech, expression, Members of Parliament prisoners of languages, we had privacy and freedom of movement are lost. When just talked with Mr Speaker at the caucus about how one is in the disciplined forces, they cannot just leave some points are complicated. Points which were raised Gaborone to Francistown after knocking off at 5:30 p.m. by the Minister are in black and white, he read them as they have to ask for permission to go there, that is the they are since Laws are written in English. We cannot protocol; they have to follow. When you are on duty, put words in his mouth so that he does not present in you cannot just go out for a weekend. These kind of English. Some people debate in both Setswana and laws, are there to ensure that, people abide by the law, English even though they interchange languages, not and do not do as they please. reading the whole paragraph in English. When you edit their discussion, you will find out that they mostly used So… English. If we are going to start a procedure whereby we are going to implicate the other Honourable Members HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. just because they used English even though it is the law MR MMUSI: Who is it? then that is not procedural Mr Speaker. . HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. MR SPEAKER: Honourable Leader of the House, I gave him permission. He said that he would like to MR MMUSI: You will have a chance to debate. clarify Honourable Greef’s question in Setswana. I have allowed him to do that. Go ahead Minister. MR LUCAS: Clarification. Thank you very much. Honourable Mmusi, Honourable Keorapetse talked MR MMUSI: Thank you Mr Speaker. Honourable about principle of the law which says, presumption of Greef, let us say that maybe someone was earning P5 innocence, innocent until proven guilty which applies 000, and then there is an interdiction or we find out that to everyone. Do you know that principle? How do you their take home is P2 500, the Commissioner sits and overrule it when it comes to Prisons officers? Thank assesses these issues. These is a Committee which also you. assesses, they do not just withhold salaries. I believe that I have answered you Honourable. MR MMUSI: Thank you sir. I know it. Like I said, when you work at Prisons Services, Police Services MR MMOLOTSI: Clarification. Thank you very and the Defence Force, you are expected to abide by much Mr Speaker. Minister, please clarify that point, is strict disciplinary code of conduct and ethics. You take it a given that the request that has been made by the an oath to abide by the rules as well as the operational suspended member will be accepted or it is up to that processes. That is basically it. Committee and the Commissioner if they agree or not? I just want it to be very clear, is it always favorable? HIS HONOUR THE VICE PRESIDENT (MR TSOGWANE): Elucidation. Mr Speaker, this is what MR MMUSI: It is not possible to take all of their salary I would like to elucidate, I do not know how innocence and leave them with nothing to sustain themselves with. until proven guilty is going to be violated because it has The condition is assessed first. Their salary cannot not been said that someone has been found guilty or be taken leaving them to suffer, not having money to their whole salary is going to be withheld. It is said that buy food and to look after their children. Thank you Mr according to the strict disciplinary code of conduct at Speaker. their work, part of their salary will be seized, not all of it.

48 Hansard No 198 Thursday 3rd September, 2020 PRISONS (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2019 (NO. 26 OF 2019) Second Reading

You would have not been found guilty. Minister clarify MR SPEAKER: No Honourable Leader of the that conditions are assessed as well as the weight of Opposition, that is not a procedure. Why did you not their case. These are the things which are administered ask him to just reconcile? by the Commissioner at that service. That job is not like other jobs. As you can see that in the Public Service Act, HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Interruptions!)… we have a challenge concerning teachers because they MR SPEAKER: Honourable Mmusi go ahead. are considered to be under the Public Service Act even though their job has special conditions which bind them. MR MMUSI: Thank you. Minister, clarify that, that person is not yet found guilty HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Interruptions!)… because the whole of their salary is not seized. Only a certain percentage of it has been withheld. When they MINISTER FOR PRESIDENTIAL AFFAIRS, are not found guilty, explain what will happen to the GOVERNANCEAND PUBLICADMINISTRATION percentage of their salary which has been withheld. (MR MORWAENG): Clarification. Thank you. Honourable Mmusi, I want to ask... MR MMUSI: Thank you Leader of the House. No, it is indeed true. You are on the right track because I had HONOURABLE MEMBER: Procedure. said that only a certain percentage of that person’s salary is withheld and assessments will be made on their net MR SPEAKER: Honourable Mmolotsi procedure. salary. Like I have said, Section 52 (3) is the one that MR MMOLOTSI: Procedure. No, Mr Speaker, I think gives the Commissioner the powers to pay full amount Honourable Morwaeng should wait for Honourable which has been withheld or a certain percentage to Mmusi to rise and ask for a point of clarification. Who someone if and when they are not found guilty. Those is he asking for a point of procedure from? are the things that are going to be considered... HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Interruptions!)… LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION (MR SALESHANDO): Procedure. I believe that I can use MR SPEAKER: Actually, I wanted to say Honourable a point of procedure to show that something which has Mmusi. You are quite right Honourable Mmolotsi. I been said is misleading. The Minister is saying that, wanted to say clarification, elucidation and correction, they assess situations before they can withhold salaries, are in the nature of the Member standing and speaking. looking at ones net salary. Allow me to quote what So he was half way and it was not clear as to whether he Section 52 (2) says because it is not corresponding with wanted to rise or to sit down. I request that when you what the Minister is saying... yield for your friend...

MR SPEAKER: Go ahead. HONOURABLE MEMBER: He is not standing up.

MR SALESHANDO: It says, “A prison officer MR SPEAKER: ...and then he rise up… interdicted under Sub-Section 1 shall receive during the HONOURABLE MEMBER: He is talking while he is period of his interdiction such portion of his salary being seated down, he is not standing up not less than one half as the appointing authority shall in each case determine.” A certain percentage is withheld. MR SPEAKER: Clarification Honourable Morwaeng. They cannot just come and say no, we are cutting 70 per Let us proceed because we are already… cent, and you are left with 2 per cent or any percentage, there is a limit that has been set. MINISTER FOR PRESIDENTIAL AFFAIRS, GOVERNANCEAND PUBLICADMINISTRATION HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Interruptions!)… (MR MORWAENG): Clarification. Thank you. Honourable Mmusi, I want you to explain to us if people MR SALESHANDO: Yes, you cannot take more than who are employed by prisons services when they get half. In other words, when you earn P10 000, you cannot there, are not told about their conditions of service? Are receive a salary which is more than P5 000. That is what all these conditions not explained to them? it is saying. Honourable Mmusi makes it seem like it is okay, you earn P10 000, P5 000 can get you in trouble, MINISTER OF DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND let us give you P7 000. That is misleading. SECURITY (MR MMUSI): Thank you Honourable

Hansard No198 49 Thursday 3rd September, 2020 PRISONS (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2019 (NO. 26 OF 2019) Second Reading

Morwaeng. Honourable Minister, it is true that these MR MMUSI: Even you Honourable Member! Hey!... conditions are explained. Like I said, there is an Act (Laughter!)... which regulates them on what is supposed to be done and the procedure but Mr Speaker… MR SPEAKER: Honourable Mmusi, wait, I did not get that procedure. I believe that he was asking me and not HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. you. He should be addressing the Speaker. What is the procedure Honourable Keorapetse? HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. MR KEORAPETSE: No, the procedure was, I did not MR MMUSI: Therefore... receive an invitation letter he was talking about. He said HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. he invited me for a meeting and I did not receive the said HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. invitation letter. MR MMUSI: No, wait. MR SPEAKER: It will come.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: No, you have never MR MMOLOTSI (FRANCISTOWN SOUTH): yielded for me. Thank you Mr Speaker. Let me take this opportunity HONOURABLE MEMBER: I am the mover. to support this Motion unwaveringly because I believe in the principle that the Government of Botswana and MR MMUSI: Time is up Honourable Member, allow other countries believe in of salary protection. That is, me to finish, you will get a chance to debate. Therefore, an employee’s salary must always be protected because deleting... it is common knowledge that when an individual gets a HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. salary, every commitment that they make is done based on the salary they get. In our country, our salaries are MR MMUSI: Okay. very low and this makes it so hard to survive, such that we over commit our salaries to a point where the net MR KEORAPETSE: Thank you Mr Speaker. salary is very small. Honourable Mmusi, does Directorate of Intelligence and Security (DIS) fall under the category of disciplined I believe that Government agreed with the principle forces? That is the first question. Secondly, when they of salary protection looking at these things, that is are on interdiction are they paid full salary or they get a why when a person is demoted, only the badges are portion of their salary? affected but not the salary because it is acknowledged MR MMUSI: Honourable Keorapetse, unfortunately that people have committed their salaries. Therefore, I DIS falls under Office of the President, it does not believe that this issue of budgeting does not only affect fall under me. Therefore, I am not privy to their laws the public service and private sector: It also affects the and how they work. I am only aware of the one you police, prisons officers and military officers. Therefore, submitted to me on how it works and what happens. to imagine that prisons officers have not committed their salaries in the same way that other public officers Mr Speaker, therefore deleting Section 52 (2) and (3) of the Prison’s Act will compromise good order and and private sector employees have committed theirs discipline in the prison service. For this reason Mr beats me. Speaker, the Private Member’s Bill No. 26 of 2019 Again I ask myself that since at prisons there are many is not supported by myself. I have previously invited forms of punishments which can be imposed, why use Honourable Keorapetse for a meeting to engage on a punishment that will not affect that individual only. It this issue and I still maintain that the invitation is open is going to affect their family and children’s education. Honourable Keorapetse. I thank you Mr Speaker. It may even affect the marriage directly resulting in HONOURABLE MEMBER: When did you invite divorce. After the case is finished, and the individual is him? found not guilty, their spouse will not return. When a person is innocent, all the commitments that the person MR KEORAPETSE: Procedure Mr Speaker. I hear had like houses, vehicles are gone and prisons will not Honourable Mmusi saying he invited me, I have not return them yet it is responsible for the loss that the seen that invitation. Where did you take that letter? employee incurred.

50 Hansard No 198 Thursday 3rd September, 2020 PRISONS (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2019 (NO. 26 OF 2019) Second Reading

That is why I said I do not understand why when there MR KEORAPETSE: Clarification. What is your are many forms of punishments which can be imposed response to Honourable Mmusi when he says that if this on that employee, we want to punish them by taking law can be approved by Parliament, it will compromise their salary? Therefore I support Honourable Keorapetse good order in the prisons service? looking... MR MMOLOTSI (FRANCISTOWN SOUTH): Yes, HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. that is what Honourable Mmusi said but I believe what he said is wrong because there is no way it can compromise MR MMOLOTSI: You will get a chance to debate good order. In fact, what we are currently doing is what comrade. Looking at that system of an individual’s can actually compromise good order because you can salary… imagine what happens to an employee whose salary has HONOURABLE MEMBER: You normally make been reduced? So, in that manner Honourable Mmusi, noise when you want clarification. I believe even though you are well known for refuting things which are not supposed to be refuted perhaps MR MMOLOTSI: Whom have you ever yielded to? you could consider approaching that one differently. Do you ever yield to anyone? You have made yourself a Perhaps you could be compassionate on these officers star that…, let me continue you are wasting my time. I because their jobs are very challenging; they guard do not agree with Honourable Mmusi that Government very dangerous criminals. If this kind of person makes believes in the principle of protection of salaries, and a mistake, they might end up in a situation which may when a person is demoted, the Government decides that reverse their livelihood which they have earned over the the salary must not be affected. years that they have been working.

The second one was raised by Honourable Taolo Lucas I do not think we are considerate. If we are considerate that in our constitution a person is not guilty until proven enough, we have to bear in mind that when a person guilty. When you start punishing a person by taking starts working, they start to accumulate things and the their salary, it is like you have already found that person decision to reduce their salary can actually reverse guilty. This means you are punishing that person while everything that they have worked for throughout their he or she is still awaiting trial. I believe that you have life. . That is why I am saying, I am appealing to you as to wait until he or she is found guilty and punish him or the ruling party, as Members who have more numbers her appropriately. I wonder why rush to punish someone which give you an opportunity to oppose Motions, but with a punishment that will change his or her life forever in this particular case, we are talking about human life whereas you could have adopted other methods. and challenges which ended up ruining some of their lives completely. Some of them committed suicide as a When our law says a person is innocent until proven result of this, we know some of them and can therefore guilty, it is a law which must be upheld since it was made give their names on the side if Honourable Mmusi want by this Parliament and this law should supersede other to know them. We could give him names of those who laws at departmental level or elsewhere. Therefore, we decided to commit suicide as a result of the issues that can see that the disciplined forces end up being insolvent we are talking about. That is why I am appealing to because of the system you have been using. However, it you Honourable Members, let us make amendments is the same Government which says that if an individual for officials who work at Prisons. We are yet to address is insolvent, they should not continue working. issues which affects the Police and Botswana Defence Honourable Molale will tell you that insolvency in the Force (BDF) so I urge us to support these laws with public service can result in dismissal. Therefore, if it the intention to amend things that need to be rectified is the employer who is responsible for the employee’s including things which they have been complaining insolvency leading to that employee being dismissed, about for a very long time. Honourable Mmusi, do is that right according to this law? I believe we would you think they are impressed with this situation? Do be handling this matter wrongly. I support Honourable you believe that? There is absolutely no one who is Dithapelo Keorapetse because the Public Service Act of impressed with this situation. So I am saying, let us 2008 amended this in the entire public service, I believe amend the conditions of service of the disciplined that this one on salaries must be extended to prisons, forces, let us try our level best to deal with those that are military officers and the police. not good and this is one of them.

Hansard No198 51 Thursday 3rd September, 2020 PRISONS (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2019 (NO. 26 OF 2019) Second Reading

In conclusion Honourable Members, I request this for Salaries Review Commission at that time, he said, Parliament to approve this law so that it can improve “we are just like the prisoners that we are guarding the conditions of service of Prisons just like it is the before the eyes of this Government…” case with other public servants and just like Honourable Dithapelo Keorapetse said. We amended the Public HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Applause!)... Service Act in 2008 and their conditions of service has MR KAPINGA: …“because we work inside, within been improved. Moreover, it has also produced good the prison walls. The Government is not able to results and they are very impressed with this procedure. distinguish between us and the prisoners.” This kind of Thank you Mr Speaker. provision reflects that Government mentality is not able to differentiate between Prison Warder and a prisoner MR KAPINGA (OKAVANGO): Thank you Mr simply because they both spend most of the time within Speaker. In order for you to understand how both sides the prison walls. So, we want to remind you that Prison of aisle are approaching this issue, you have to consider Warder is not a prisoner, they are actually guarding advise from experts. They mentioned that we have to them, public servants like any other. consider what leaders regard employees like the police, military and prison officers as. I went to school with HIS HONOUR THE VICE PRESIDENT (MR a certain man who was called Themba Joina. I was a TSOGWANE): Clarification Mr Speaker. I thank you police officer at that time. He mentioned that leaders Honourable especially that... regard police officers as instruments of oppression which they use to oppress other people. If you can HONOURABLE MEMBER: We have made some consider the conditions of service that we are talking justice to ourselves, you are... about today, you will realise that prison officers, police MR TSOGWANE: No, he is much better than every and military officers are used as tools. If you can also Member that side. He is better than all of you. compare Prison Warders who used to be called jail guards to the police, you will realise that, they are the Honourable Kapinga, my clarification is … you were worst because suspension is not provided in the Prisons able to bring an important point which the mover of Act. On the other hand, there is provision for suspension the Motion did not highlight, that Police Act states of a period of three months on Police Act. During the that a police officer is entitled to 100 per cent of their period of suspension, you are entitled to earn 100 per salary during the period of three months suspension. cent of your salary but it is not provided at Prisons. If you consider people like the Commissioner and Allow me to explain how it came into being because I those who were reviewing salaries, what stopped you was a Commissioner for Salaries Review Commission. from amending this Act since you were able to make This is why we discarded interdiction of 100 per cent amendments of up to three months? Who is responsible and insert suspension which allows 100 per cent salary for that? Was it the responsibility of the Government in three months, I was at the centre of that process of or those who were reviewing salaries who were also reforming our law so that the rights and conditions of Commissioners? service of the police can be respected. The same can be extended to the Prisons Department that, instead of MR KAPINGA: Your Honour, the responsibility of providing only for interdiction at 50 per cent, if we fail amending this Act is in the hands of those who have to recognise that even though a Prison Warder has great the power to rule and to bring laws to this Parliament. responsibility, it cannot be more than that of a Judge We were under the leadership of Commissioner Norman because he presides over a mega corruption trial. The Moleboge at that time, the enlightenment that we had at responsibility of a Prison Warder who guards a criminal that time made us realise that there was a form of injustice who is within the prison walls cannot be more than that that if the police officer committed an offence then he of a Judge, prosecutor and a police officer who have is immediately put under interdiction at half salary. We even better conditions because they get their full salary then proposed to Government to amend this, instead in the first three months. of interdiction it should be three months suspension. Now, we are at a stage where we are more enlightened Commissioner of Prisons, I do not know how to address than we were before, where we can now discern that him, he was called Hermen Kau and he mentioned that he the current provision through our new knowledge and is aware that this Government… I was a Commissioner enlightenment and examples that, other non-uniformed

52 Hansard No 198 Thursday 3rd September, 2020 PRISONS (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2019 (NO. 26 OF 2019) Second Reading

public servants can receive their full salaries. In the light Act Mr Speaker. The only difference is that the Prisons of this enlightenment there is nothing difficult that the Act has no provision for suspension of the accused. It same provision can be extended to a prisons officer just means the amendment Honourable Kapinga did was not as the public servant who falls under Public Service Act. really an improvement, what it did was to distinguish Honourable Members, reform is a continuous process both pieces of legislation because the other one gives a which you should respond to. When things around you police officer a reprieve while being accused but once are changing you should not be adamant that these are charged, they are interdicted then their salary is seized. disciplined officers. Of course, they have a special duty Prisons Act does not have provision of suspension; it that is why they are wearing a uniform but the same level of duty, uprightness even a higher standard is only states that when charged with an offence you are expected of a Judicial officer, Public Prosecutor and interdicted and earn half salary. Honourable Kapinga Magistrate. So why is a prison officer interdicted at half you will find all these provisions in Section 52. salary when they commit an offence, simply because While assessing this Motion Mr Speaker, to some they wear a uniform? extent I do sympathise with this request however while The other thing we have to realise Honourable Members sympathising I look at what is the current regime? What is that, these cases delay. People stay up to two, three is a regime? In most cases when you are in a position of years or even four still in that interdiction due to trust or some responsibility in the public you are judged circumstances beyond their control. So what happens in a more severe manner than those who do not have to a person’s life during those years? In my view, those responsibilities. That is why in most cases when instead of that individual suffering, instead of his salary a minor has stolen they are charged with common theft suffering, rather the state should suffer the harm or loss and become liable to imprisonment for three years. whilst waiting for the case to be prosecuted. All of us However if you are in a position of trust or you are a here know that these cases delay. I have a message here servant, clerk or director of a company…Honourable from a police officer as an example who was interdicted Boko understands what I am saying, then you steal, in 2018 for a disciplinary offence, to date his case is mainly because of the position you are in, you are judged still pending. He earns half salary and has kids but it is more severely more than the other one and that is why not his fault that the case is not prosecuted and I believe you find that you become liable to imprisonment for a such circumstances are there at prisons. It is not the fault period of seven years, on grounds that you are holding of officers but rather of the system. So let us make a a position. decision to protect the poor individual so that him and So, if you look at the custodians of the law like police the children do not suffer because of the system which is officers and prisons officers. Prison officers execute failing to prosecute cases within a short period of time. court orders and judgements. When a Judge sentences an Thank you Mr Speaker. accused to imprisonment, the Judge cannot execute his HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Applause!)… own judgement, he orders that someone in Government must execute it. So if you are imprisoned, the prison MINISTER OF INFRASTRUCTURE AND officers execute the judgement by the court which places HOUSING DEVELOPMENT (MR KGAFELA): them in the position of some authority in the society, Thank you Mr Speaker. I have been listening to that they execute orders of the court. That is why you Honourable Members debating this Motion. If we look find that…even police are seen to be an extension of at the Police Service Act Honourable Kapinga was the court, by executing the court orders because they talking about, it is true, when a police officer is accused transport the accused to prison. I think it is because of since the word used in this clause is “accused”, they can this background that they are judged severely. As I have be suspended for a period not exceeding three months. said, there is some sympathy in it. One of my colleagues Still in the Police Act, I think it is Section 13 (2) if they here was asking me if it does not conflict with the are charged before court or Board, they are interdicted Employment Act which states that, you cannot deduct and like the Prisons Act the interdicted officer receives money from an employee’s salary? I explained to him only half salary. So it does not differ from the Prisons that…when he hit me with that question, I read through

Hansard No198 53 Thursday 3rd September, 2020 PRISONS (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2019 (NO. 26 OF 2019) Second Reading

Employment Act and Section 79 of Employment Act HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. which prohibits any deductions from the employee’s salary. So I showed my colleague here that, it now MR KGAFELA: …that will get a stiffer penalty, as defeats what he was saying to me. Provision starts by opposed to for instance, Honourable Kwape here… saying, “Notwithstanding this Act or any other law…” HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification Senior which means… Counsel (SC). MR BOKO: Clarification Senior Counsel. Thank you HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… Counsel. I want you to explain to me the law as it is now; just the rationale. After that you will explain to MR GREEF: Clarification. Senior Counsel, I do not me if the same rationale cannot be extended to the want to waste your time, I want you to clarify something Permanent Secretary at Office of the President, a Judge for me here, do you think it is okay for the law to allow of the High Court or a Minister? someone to be sentenced when they have not been MINISTER OF INFRASTRUCTURE AND found guilty? HOUSING DEVELOPMENT (MR KGAFELA): I MR KGAFELA: I want to clarify the issue of Senior was still concluding on that one regarding employment Counsel, I have never taken letters patent. because it seems to provide that you cannot deduct from a salary, but if there is any part of the Employment Act HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… that permits that deduction, then that deduction will then MR KGAFELA: I do not want to commit myself by not offend Section 79. accepting SC appellage whereas I do not have it. SC is Let me answer Honourable Boko over there; you for people who silk. I am not Senior Counsel Honourable should be aware of a regime, it will manifest itself Members. either in the way in which courts judge and sentence. A regime will also manifest itself in the way we as Let me explain that our Constitution in Section 10 states Members of Parliament express ourselves by making that, if you have been charged with a criminal offence, laws. Former Members of Parliament are here, they you are presumed innocent until proven guilty, this expressed themselves in this way and they imposed this means that, the court will not sentence you. It has to punishment; an extra additional punishment on an elder be a criminal offence because if you have been charged because he is in a position of authority. Regarding the at work on account of a disciplinary matter and it falls ones you mentioned, I can assure you that, I have read short of a criminal offence, then it cannot offend that all their judgments and, they will reveal those people if provision of the Constitution because this one talks they are found guilty because when we get to sentencing, about a criminal offence. I do accept these provisions of it is the discretion of the judicial officer. In most cases police officers and prison warders, it states somewhere because you are a person of a position of trust, you that, if you are charged with a criminal offence, but will find that you receive stiffer sentence than others. then it gives your appointing authority the power to For instance, you as a lawyer sir, if you committed an deduct some of the money from your salary but it does offence similar to … let us say Honourable Kwape’s, not give him the power to then convict you, because a since you are a lawyer, you are likely to receive a stiffer conviction is made by the court. Section 10… time is up sentence because it is believed that visa-vie the law, you Honourable Members. are the one who is supposed to be upholding the law. So it is the position you occupy, visa-vie the offence MR SPEAKER: Order! Honourable Members, as you have been charged with, considering that you are it is now 6:00, the debates on Private Members Bill supposed to be upholding the law. A Judge for instance, are adjourned until next week Thursday. We are now if they are involved in a crime, I can assure you that resuming the debates on approval of the Mid-Term when it gets to the sentence as you know Honourable Review (MTR) of National Development Plan (NDP) Member that sentencing is the discretion of the judicial 11. office…

54 Hansard No 198 Thursday 3rd September, 2020 ECTORAL DEBATE: CHAPTER 7 GOVERNANCE, PEACE AND SECURITY (Resumed Debate)

APPROVAL OF THE MID-TERM implementation of the strategy. To that end, the Terms REVIEW OF of References (TORs) for the consultant have been THE NATIONAL DEVELOPMENT finalised. The establishment of a Law Reform Unit is PLAN 11: 2017/2018 - 2022/2023 essential for the realisation of Government’s large and complex law reform projects which underpin the NDP SECTORAL DEBATE 11 and achievement of Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs) and as such, its establishment is a Government CHAPTER 7 priority.

GOVERNANCE, PEACE AND (iii) Development and Implementation of Quality SECURITY Management System

(Resumed Debate) Mr Speaker, this project seeks to implement a Quality ATTORNEY GENERAL’S CHAMBERS Management System (QMS) for the AGC by 2023. The project will be done in phases. QMS is a set of policies, MINISTER OF DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND processes and procedures required for planning and SECURITY (MR MMUSI): Mr Speaker, priorities for execution in the core business area and organisation, the remaining period of NDP 11 are as follows: including leveraging on ICT. The AGC is developing Document Management System and procuring related CAPACITY BUILDING & HUMAN RESOURCES equipment as part of implementing the Quality DEVELOPMENT Management System. (i) Restructuring (iv) Refurbishment of AGC Facilities Mr Speaker, The Attorney General’s Chambers (AGC) Mr Speaker, The Attorney General’s Chambers building continues to face the challenges of high attrition rates is not in a good state of repair. The Heating Ventilation and staff shortages at senior and middle management & Air Conditioning (HVAC) system has not been levels in critical areas of litigation and drafting, which functioning for many years now. Despite the COVID-19 affects both the quality and quantity generated by the induced budget cut, I am hopeful the project will proceed AGC. However, efforts are on-going to address these with a view to providing comfort in the office. challenges between the AGC and the Directorate of Pre-planning has commenced on the refurbishment of Public Service Management (DPSM). These include the passenger lifts of the AGC- Head Quarters (HQ) organisational restructuring of the chambers with the building, and the actual refurbishment is expected to aim of facilitating a more conducive environment, commence in the subsequent financial years of the plan. improving organisational efficiency and for purposes of enhancing the conditions of service, thereby enabling DECENTRALISATION OF SERVICES efficient service delivery across the chambers. (i) Take-over of the Prosecutorial Functions from the (ii) Establishment of Law Reform Unit Police

Mr Speaker, following the Cabinet decision to establish Mr Speaker, in order to facilitate quality prosecution, the a Law Reform Unit under the Legislative Drafting AGC will continue to take-over prosecutorial functions Division of the Attorney General’s Chambers, the AGC from the police during the planning period. This will in collaboration with the United Nations Development enable the to concentrate on Program (UNDP), established a Law Reform Strategy the delivery of their core mandate of policing. Reference Group. Consequently, in March 2020, a final (ii) Establishment of DPP Regional Offices and Staff draft of the Law Reform Strategy was adopted by the Houses Law Reform Strategy Reference Group. Implementation of the strategy was expected to commence in the first Mr Speaker, during the remainder of National quarter of the financial year 2020/2021. However, this Development (NDP) 11, it is necessary to complete was not possible due to the absence of a consultant. the construction of the two ongoing projects, which are The AGC in collaboration with UNDP is in the process Maun and Palapye Directorate of Public Prosecution of recruiting a part-time consultant to spear head the (DPP) offices and staff houses.

Hansard No198 55 Thursday 3rd September, 2020 ECTORAL DEBATE: CHAPTER 7 GOVERNANCE, PEACE AND SECURITY (Resumed Debate)

Mr Speaker, the construction tender for the Maun Project MR SPEAKER: Order! Honourable Members, there is has been awarded and construction was expected to yet another presentation that the Minister of Defence, have commenced in quarter one (Q1) of the 2020/2021 Justice and Security has to make about Administration financial year. However, due to the ongoing pandemic, of Justice (AOJ). Honourable Minister, you are allocated there has been delays in starting work on site. another 15 minutes.

Mr Speaker, the construction of Palapye Offices and ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE Staff houses is lagging behind as it is still at the last MINISTER OF DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND stages of the design phase. Despite these setbacks, I SECURITY (MR MMUSI): Mr Speaker, I have the remain hopeful that the two projects will be delivered honour and privilege to present to this Honourable during the last part of NDP 11. House the performance of the Administration of Justice (AOJ) in the implementation of policies, strategies, Mr Speaker, otherwise in view of the shrinking financial programmes and initiatives relating to the Governance, resources, the quickest way to establish regional offices Peace and Security (DPS) Thematic Working Group will be through partnerships with the private sector, by (TWG). I will also highlight challenges encountered leasing office accommodation from the market. This during the period under review, and indicate key aspects strategy is consistent with Government Policy to hive of the Administration of Justice’s Strategic Plan 2017- off non-essential functions to the private sector to foster 2023, which describes the institution’s blueprint for the greater participation of the sector in the economy. remaining three years of National Development Plan (NDP) 11. Mr Speaker, it is worth noting that the Attorney General’s Chambers (AGCs) continues to face numerous Mr Speaker, the Judiciary is established under the challenges. However, there are interventions to try and Constitution of Botswana with a mandate to determine, address such challenges as outlined below: settle and resolve various disputes brought before the courts. The Judiciary contributes to the upholding (i) Given the less favorable macro-economic climate, of peace, order, rule of law, democracy and good the AGCs has scaled down its plans and has settled governance by administering justice in terms of the laws to establish only one more office in the Western of Botswana. The Judiciary also provides critical checks Region, instead of the two that were planned for and balances on other Arms of Government, being the the second half of NDP 11. Executive and the Legislature.

(ii) In an effort to quicken the delivery of such facility, ACHIEVEMENTS DURING THE FIRST HALF and in line with Government efforts to spur Citizen OF NDP 11 Economic Participation, the office accommodation will be leased from the private sector. Promotion of Access to Justice

(iii) In the spirit of the Thematic Working Group Mr Speaker, in an endeavor to improve judicial services, (TWG), the DPP and the Directorate on Corruption the Judiciary continues to bring justice closer to the and Economic Crime (DCEC) have collaborated people. An additional Division of the High Court was in the delivery and the operation and maintenance established in Maun in December 2019. Furthermore, of such facilities. additional Special Courts such as Stock Theft Court, Traffic Court and Maintenance Court were established Conclusion in the following places; Maun, Tsabong, Mahalapye, Francistown, Selebi Phikwe, Palapye, Mochudi, Mr Speaker, this concludes my presentation on the Mid- Gaborone (Village), Molepolole, Lobatse and Jwaneng Term Review of NDP 11 for the Attorney General’s Magistrate Courts. The Corruption Court has been Chambers. I therefore, move that the sum of One established at the Gaborone High Court Division in Hundred and Forty-One Million, Six Hundred and addition to the existing one at the Francistown High Eleven Thousand, Three Hundred and Twenty-Nine Court Division. The AOJ has also completed the Pula (P141, 611, 329) be approved and stand part of the construction of purpose built Magistrate Courts in NDP 11 Mid-Term Review Budget. I move accordingly. Broadhurst and Kanye with facilities such as witness I thank you, Mr Speaker. rooms, holding cells, et cetera.

56 Hansard No 198 Thursday 3rd September, 2020 ECTORAL DEBATE: CHAPTER 7 GOVERNANCE, PEACE AND SECURITY (Resumed Debate)

Mr Speaker, as part of its contribution to the Strategic conclusion of cases. In the coming financial year, Thrusts, Economic Recovery and Transformation Plan, Court Annexed Mediation services will be provided in the AOJ has put in place strategies to enhance service Gaborone, Francistown and Maun and will ultimately delivery and turnaround times. These strategies include be rolled out to other stations going forward. A position among others, the amendment of the Rules of Court to of Mediation Administrator, which is at the level of a incorporate Court Annexed Mediation, Electronic Filing High Court Judge, will be created and will be supported (E-filing), increase the threshold of Small Claims Court, by four Mediators. The implementation of this initiative and review Tariffs for Attorneys. will contribute to the efficiency of the justice sector, simplify processes, improve turnaround times for Promoting Digitalisation completion of cases and provide the much needed Mr Speaker, in an effort to improve the overall efficiency reform to remove barriers to effective service delivery of the courts and to expedite court processes across and access to justice. This will further help fast track the country, reforms largely driven by Information commercial cases such as tender disputes and enhance Technology systems, such as Judicial Case Management the doing business environment. System (JCM) and Court Records Management System Mr Speaker, the number of Small Claims Courts will be (CRMS) continue to be successfully implemented in all increased from two to five, by establishing additional courts. The objective of the two systems is to improve Small Claims Courts in Jwaneng, Palapye and Maun. To the turnaround time and the disposal rate of cases. The support this, the threshold for Small Claims Court has JCM allows for the tracking and monitoring of judicial been increased from P10, 000 to P30, 000. officers whilst the CRMS registers and allocates cases to judicial officers. The introduction of e-filing system Mr Speaker, as already indicated, the AOJ intends to will further expedite case disposal in courts, reduce harness technology by introducing e-filing to facilitate travel and other costs incurred by litigants in the filing a system through which litigants may file documents court process and mitigate the likelihood of COVID-19 remotely. To support this initiative, a facility for the effects. While CRMS, JCM and e-filing are intended remittance of court fees and online payments through to improve case disposal rate, there are still challenges designated bank accounts will be made available. Mr of case backlog which require concerted effort by all Speaker, access to justice will further be enhanced by stakeholders to address the situation. the construction of purpose built Magistrate Courts in Kasane and Serowe, which will compliment all CHALLENGES other initiatives intended to improve efficiency in the Mr Speaker, despite the above achievements, the AOJ Judiciary. continues to experience challenges in the delivery Mr Speaker, the National Transformation Agenda, of its mandate, such as delays in the transcription of requires that the pattern of economic growth in records of proceedings due to acute shortage of Court Botswana be driven by the private sector. In this Reporters in the market. Efforts are being made in terms regard, the Administration of Justice (AOJ) will, during of recruitment and training of Court Personnel (Court the remainder of National Development Plan (NDP) Reporters) in Real Time Court Reporting and acquisition 11 establish three Commercial Courts in Gaborone, of necessary specialised equipment to expedite the Francistown and Maun to improve efficiency in the process of records transcription. Mr Speaker, other disposal of commercial disputes. These Courts will challenges include modernising the Judiciary to address facilitate and enhance the ease of doing business, and complex and emerging cases such as cybercrime, human ultimately create a conducive environment for Foreign trafficking, money laundering, et cetera. Attached to Direct Investment (FDI). This will further help in the this challenge is the overall shortage of resources which creation of the much-needed jobs, especially for our currently affects efficiency in service delivery and may youth. delay the attainment of a world-class Judiciary. Mr Speaker, the proposed development programmes PROGRAMMES AND PROJECTS FOR THE and projects for the remaining period of the NDP 11, REMAINDER OF NDP 11 will require One Hundred and Fifty-Three Million, Mr Speaker, the Court Annexed Mediation is a form of Four Hundred Thousand Pula (P153, 400, 000.00) to be alternative dispute resolution that facilitates expedited implemented.

Hansard No198 57 Thursday 3rd September, 2020 ECTORAL DEBATE: CHAPTER 7 GOVERNANCE, PEACE AND SECURITY (Resumed Debate)

CONCLUSION

Mr Speaker, this concludes my presentation on the Mid-Term Review of NDP 11 for the Administration of Justice. I therefore, move that the sum of One Hundred and Fifty-Three Million, Four Hundred and Thousand Pula (P153, 400, 000.00) be approved and stand part of the NDP 11 Mid-Term Review budget. I move accordingly. I thank you, Mr Speaker.

MR SPEAKER (MR PULE): Order! Honourable Members, we have concluded the business of today, I shall now at this moment call upon Honourable Molale to move a Motion of adjournment.

MOTION

ADJOURNMENT

MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT (MR MOLALE): Thank you Mr Speaker. I now move that this House do adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

The Assembly accordingly adjourned at 6:21 p.m. until Friday 4th September, 2020 at 9:00 p.m.

58 Hansard No 198 HANSARD RECORDERS Mr. T. Gaodumelwe, Mr T. Monakwe, Ms T. D. Kebonang HANSARD REPORTERS Mr M. Buti, Ms Z. Molemi, Mr J. Samunzala, Ms N. Selebogo, Ms A. Ramadi, Ms D. Thibedi, Ms G. Baotsi, Ms N. Mokoka

HANSARD EDITORS Ms K. Nyanga, Ms C. Chonga, Mr K. Goeme, Ms G. Phatedi, Ms B. Malokwane, Mr A. Mokopakgosi, Ms O. Nkatswe, Ms G. Lekopanye, Ms T. Mokhure, Ms B. Ratshipa, Ms M. Madubeko HANSARD TRANSLATORS Ms B. Ntisetsang, Ms M. Sekao, Ms B. Mosinyi, Ms V. Nkwane, Ms N. Kerobale, Ms K. Alepeng, Ms T. Motsau, Ms O. Phesodi, Mr K. Setswe

LAYOUT DESIGNERS Mr B. B. Khumanego, Mr D. T. Batshegi, Mr K. Rebaisakae

Hansard No198 59