PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

FIFTIETH PARLIAMENT

AUTUMN SESSION 1986

Legislative Council

VOL. CCCLXXXI

[From March 18, 1986, to April 23, 1986J

MELBOURNE: F. D. ATKINSON, GOVERNMENT PRINTER

The Governor

His Excellency the Reverend DR JOHN DAVIS MCCAUGHEY

The Lieutenant-Governor

The Honourable SIR JOHN McINTOSH YOUNG, KCMG

The Ministry

Premier The Hon. John Cain, MP Deputy Premier, and Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources The Hon. R. C. Fordham, MP Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs The Hon. E. H. Walker, MLC Minister for Health The Hon. D. R. White, MLC Minister for Education The Hon. I. R. Cathie, MP *Minister for Employment and Industrial Affairs The Hon. S. M. Crabb, MP Minister for Community Services The Hon. C. J. Hogg, MLC Treasurer The Hon. R. A. Jolly, MP Attorney-General, and Minister for Planning and Environment The Hon. J. H. Kennan, MLC Minister for Conservation, Forests and Lands The Hon. J. E. Kirner, MLC Minister for the Arts, and Minister for Police and Emergency Services The Hon. C. R. T. Mathews, MP Minister for Water Resources, and Minister for Property and Services The Hon. Andrew McCutcheon, MP Minister for Transport The Hon. T. W. Roper, MP Minister for Local Government .. The Hon. J. L. Simmonds, MP Minister for Consumer Affairs, and Minister for Ethnic Affairs The Hon. P. C. Spyker, MP Minister for Sport and Recreation The Hon. N. B. Trezise, MP **Minister for Public Works, and Minister Assisting the Minister for Employment and Industrial Affairs .. The Hon. R. W. Walsh, MP Minister for Housing The Hon. F. N. Wilkes, MP Parliamentary Secretary of the Cabinet Dr K. A. Coghill, MP

From 8 April 1986- * Portfolio changed to Minister for Labour. ** Second portfolio changed to Minister Assisting the Minister for Labour.

Members of the Legislative Council FIFTIETH PARLIAMENT-FIRST SESSION

MEMBER PROVINCE MEMBER PROVINCE Arnold, M. J. Templestowe Landeryou, W. A. Doutta Galla Baxter, W. R. North Eastern Lawson, Robert Higinbotham Birrell, M. A. East Yarra Long, R. J. Gippsland Chamberlain, 8. A. Western Lyster, Mrs M. A. Chelsea Connard, G. P. Higinbotham McArthur, L. A. Nunawading Coxsedge, Mrs Joan West McLean, Mrs Jean Boronia Crawford, G. R. Jika Jika Macey, Reg Monash de Fegely, R. S. Ballarat Mackenzie, R. A. Geelong Dixon, Mrs J. L. Boronia Mier, 8. W. Waverley Dunn,B. P. North Western Miles,J. G. Templestowe Evans, D. M. North Eastern Murphy, B. A. Gippsland Granter, F. J. Central Highlands Pullen, 8. T. Melbourne Grimwade, F. S. Central Highlands Reid, N. 8. Guest, J. V. C. Monash Sandon, M. J. Chelsea Hallam, R. M. Western Sgro, G. A. Melbourne North Henshaw. D. E. Geelong Storey, Haddon, QC East Yarra Hogg, Mrs C. J. Melbourne North Van Buren, C. F. Eumemmerring Hunt, A. J. South Eastern Varty, Mrs Rosemary Nunawading Kennan, J. H. Thomastown Walker, E. H. Melbourne Kennedy, C. J. Waverley Ward, H. R. South Eastern Kirner, Mrs J. E. Melbourne West White, D. R. DouttaGalla Knowles, R. I. Ballarat Wright, K. I. M. North Western

President: THE HON. R. A. MACKENZIE Chairman of Committees: THE. HON. G. A. SGRO Temporary Chairmen of Committees: The Honourables M. J. Arnold, Joan Coxsedge, D. E. Henshaw, Robert Lawson, R. J. Long, M. J. Sandon and K. I. M. Wright.

Leader of the Government: THE HON. E. H. WALKER Deputy Leader of the Government: THE HON. D. R. WHITE

Leader of the Opposition: THE HON. A. J. HUNT

Deputy Leader of the Opposition: THE HON. HADDON STOREY Leader ofthe National Party: THE HON. 8. P. DUNN Deputy Leader of the National Party: THE HON. W. R. BAXTER

Heads of Parliamentary Departments Council-Clerk of the Parliaments and Clerk ofthe Legislative Council: Mr R. K. Evans

Assembly-Clerk of the Legislative Assembly: Mr R. K. Boyes

Hansard-ChiefReporter: Mr L. C. Johns

Library-Librarian: Mr B. J. Davidson

House-Secretary: Mr R. M. Duguid

Death a/Sir 18 March 1986 COUNCIL

Tuesday, 18 March 1986

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. A. Mackenzie) took the chair at 3.3 p.m. and read the prayer. DEATH OF THE HONOURABLE SIR HENRY ARTHUR WINNEKE, AC, KCMG, KCVO, OBE, KStJ, QC The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs)-I move: That this House expresses its sincere sorrow at the death, on 28 December 1985, of the Honourable Sir Henry Arthur Winneke, AC, KCMG, KCVO, OBE, KStJ, QC, a former , and its appreciation of the high character, dignity, and outstanding ability which distinguished him throughout his long and honourable career. I announce with great sadness the passing on 28 December 1985 of Sir Henry Arthur Winneke, AC, KCMG, KCVO, OBE, KStJ, QC. Sir Henry died in his 78th year. He was born in 1908 in North Fitzroy which, I might add, is part of the electorate I represent. Sir Henry was educated at , Scotch College and the . He graduated in law with first-class honours. From 1941 to 1945 Sir Henry served in the Royal Australian Air Force and achieved the rank of Group Captain. Also at that time he occupied the important post of Director of Personal Services. In 1949 he was appointed to a newly-created position as Senior Counsel to the Attorney­ General. In 1951 he became the first non-Ministerial Solicitor-General, which position had previously been part of the Attorney-General's role. In 1964 as is well known, Sir Henry was appointed Chief Justice of Victoria and, in that role, he worked with and for all parties in Government. Sir Henry was involved in many important reforms in the law, and there are other honourable members, notably the Leader of the Opposition, who would be much more closely involved with knowledge of those reforms. However, Sir Henry was involved with many important reforms in the law and the administration ofjustice in this State. Sir Henry served the State with great distinction over 33 years of public service. In 1974 he became the first Australian-born Governor of Victoria and he brought to that office of Governor and to the people the talent of an extremely warm person with great integrity. Sir Henry took a genuine interest in everyday people and their lives and he enjoyed travelling throughout the State and meeting Victorians from all walks of life. Sir Henry will be remembered for upholding the office of Governor with great dignity alld integrity. On behalf of the Government and members of the Legislative Council, I should like to extend our sympathy to Lady Winneke and to Sir Henry's two sons, John and Michael, and their families. The Hon. A. J. HUNT (South Eastern Province )-An occasion such as this fills us with sadness and yet at the same time it is a privilege to be associated with this motion to a man who was a great Victorian in every sense of the word. The measure of his quality can be judged by the fact that he served three successive Administrations of different political colour faithfully and well in accordance with the best traditions of the Westminster system and that all three of those Administrations knew that he sought only to give them the utmost service that he could. Sir Henry served the McDonald Government as Solicitor-General and as Crown Prosecutor before that. He gave that Government unpalatable advice, and I have referred on a previous occasion to some of that advice. On other occasions he was able to assist that Government very greatly with his immense knowledge, just as he assisted subsequently

Session 1986-1 2 COUNCIL 18 March 1986 Death o/Sir Henry Winneke the Administration of the late John Cain, senior, and, following that, the Administration of Sir Henry Bolte. Sir Henry was respected by all who knew him, regardless of political background, race or creed. HIS word was his bond; no one ever doubted his integrity in any way whatsoever­ no one could have done so. That integrity shone forth at all times, and yet he was, as the Leader of the House has rightly mentioned, a warm person. Sir Henry was a person with a great sense of humour. I have heard the stories tripping from his tongue at an after dinner speech. On one occasion, which was a bucks night, he started at a quarter to ten and he was still going with the audience roaring with laughter at half past ten without repeating himself. He did a better job than Billy Connolly! Sir Henry was a man who took his responsibilities as Governor very seriously indeed, and those who served with him in the Executive Council know that he never acted as a rubber stamp. What he often sought to do was to save Governments from themselves. Ministers can, at times, be over-hasty in wanting to get ajob done yet, Sir Henry, ifhe thought there was a legal problem in the way the Minister had gone about his task, would always draw it to the Minister's attention and perhaps send the Minister away to make sure that the matter was done properly and in a way that left open no possible challenge. Many Ministers were grateful for the fact that he was not a rubber stamp and that he saved them from themselves and avoided court action to which they could well have been subject. Sir Henry was a friend to all members of this House during his period as Governor. He knew all honourable members on Christian name terms, recognized them instantly and worked with them regardless of party in his visits to their electorates. There must be few men with so many honours behind them who have achieved so much in their lifetime, but he was one of Victoria's great statesmen. The Opposition joins with the Government in the tribute to Sir Henry Arthur Winneke and extends its condolences to his widow and sons. The Hon. B. P. DUNN (North Western Province)-Members of the National Party wish to be associated with this important motion. Sir Henry Arthur Winneke was a great success as Governor of Victoria from the beginning of his term of office. He had, when he came to that office, a history of service to the State, to other people and, as has been pointed out by the Leader of the House, he was the first of Victoria's very own Governors. Sir Henry Winneke was a man ofgreat compassion who had a genuine interest in people from all levels and walks oflife. He had a real concern for what was right in the community. He upheld to the utmost the traditions and expectations of the high office that he held. Sir Henry Winneke was particularly well liked by all those who met him, but country Victorians have a special relationship, almost a personal relationship with Governors of the State. It is an accepted part of the role of Governor to travel to country areas. Sir Henry Winneke did this time and again. There would not be an honourable member representing a country electorate who had not, on many occasions, met Sir Henry Winneke and Lady Winneke at functions in his electorate. Country people really value that contact. Members of the National Party wish to record their thanks for the fact that Sir Henry was the Governor for the whole of the State and that he regularly visited all parts of Victoria. He was always well received and well liked. Members of the Legislative Council have a special relationship with the Governor, who attends our functions once a year. Sir Henry Winneke's fine sense of humour was something that honourable members looked forward to before the end of the busy spring sessional period. It was a high spot in what is usually a number of weeks of heavy work. Sir Henry Winneke's life of service to the State is an example for other people to follow. Members of the National Party support the motion and extend their deepest sympathy to all members of his family. Death ojSir Henry Winneke 18 March 1986 COUNCIL 3

The Hon. F. J. GRANTER (Central Highlands Province)-I join in the motion moved by the Leader of the House for a special reason. I was quite close to Sir Henry Winneke and his former wife, "Lady Nan", as he affectionately called her, on their many visits to country Victoria. I add also, to show the real closeness and affection that I had for him, that he sent me an extract signed by T. J. E. Forristal, Clerk of the Executive Council, dated 6 June 1974, which was the first sitting of the Executive Council over which His Excellency, Sir Henry Arthur Winneke, KCMG, OBE, presided as Governor of the State of Victoria, at the Executive Council Chambers, Melbourne. Present on that occasion were His Excellency, the Governor of Victoria; Mr Dickie; and Mr Granter. I was proud to receive that extract from His Excellency some time ago. I have kept it and will continue to keep it in my papers. He remembered that first meeting and often reminded me of it, and, I guess, also Mr Dickie, on several occasions. Not long ago I was at the Moonee Valley Racecourse and His Excellency was there also as a guest, and again remembered that occasion. He had a great outlook on life. On that day we discussed the passing of Alan Croxford and he said that he would just like to go the same way as Alan, more or less doing his duties and the things that he liked to do in his everyday life. That is just the way he went. I understand he was mowing his lawn down at Shoreham when he passed away. , He was very proud of his two boys: Michael, who served as a councillor of the Melbourne City Council, and John, who was a very successful footballer and is a Queen's Counsel in this State. I join others in expressing my respects to them. I know that they are proud to have had a father as outstanding as Sir Henry, who served this country, Victoria particularly, so well during his lifetime. The Hon. HADDON STOREY (East Yarra Province)-I also join in the sentiments expressed by previous speakers. My first knowledge of Sir Henry Winneke dates to the days when I was a law student and attended the criminal court and saw him appear on behalf of the Crown. He was a striking, imposing and effective barrister. In later years I had the opportunity of appearing before him on many occasions in court and I can unhesitatingly say he was a fine judge. Not only was he a good lawyer and a man who conducted his courts with dignity and firmness,· but also a man who showed a great deal of compassion and understanding. Many a person who had appeared before Sir Henry was able to go away believing that he had had a very good hearing even if he had not in fact succeeded with the case. There were often occasions when people would appear before him without representation, perhaps in the days when legal aid was not as encompassing as it is today, and he would always assist them in every way possible. Indeed, he was a much more formidable advocate for the accused from the Bench than if the accused had had someone appearing on his behalf. Sir Henry was also kind enough as Chief Justice to recommend me for Queen's Counsel and I appreciated that effort by him. Later, when I became Attorney-General, he was Governor of Victoria, and he retained a keen interest in what was happening in the legal system and would frequently inquire about changes taking place and proposed legislation affecting the administration ofjustice within the community. In every way he was a fine Victorian who had all the characteristics of a person who was understanding and human, and who carried out a multitude of public duties in a way that endeared him to everyone who had contact with him. The Hon. H. R. WARD (South Eastern Province)-The late Sir Henry Winneke has been described today as a Governor for all men. I knew him very well during his short years of retirement. Sir Henry loved his family, friends, football, sport generally-he was a life member of the Woodlands Golf Club-and he took a personal interest in people. 4 COUNCIL 18 March 1986 Death a/Sir Henry Winneke

I regret that on the day Sir Henry died I was to visit him for no reason other than to have a glass of whisky because he liked it and liked to tell stories. He had a favourite room in his house in which he entertained visitors. Sir Henry was a delightful man. The present Lady Winneke was a great companion to him, as was HLady Nan", whom all honourable members knew. It is sad to witness the passing of such a great man; I know that all people who were near to him now miss him because he was Henry to all his friends. I join with all honourable members in expressing regret that Sir Henry Arthur Winneke, who was a Governor for all people, has passed away. The Hon. M. J. ARNOLD (Templestowe Province)-I support the remarks of honourable members on the late Sir Henry Winneke. I had known Sir Henry in my capacity as solicitor over a number of years and had found him to be a man of enormous compassion and sensitivity. He was a person who was very easy with a young solicitor fronting up to the Supreme Court not sure of the nature of the order he was seeking, let alone the way he would achieve it. I had further contact with Sir Henry on the sporting and recreation fields. Sir Henry was a keen golfer, liked to play tennis and showed an interest in the cricket match held each year between the barristers and solicitors. Sir Henry regularly attended to hand out trophies to the winning side and best player. Unfortunately for Sir Henry, the solicitors won most matches over the years-a matter he regretted because he had been a good cricketer and, I believe, one of his sons played district cricket. The fact that Sir Henry was able to excel in a number of areas and to still have the necessary humanity and time to involve himself in recreational and other matters was a mark of the man and a mark of the way in which he conducted himself as Governor of Victoria. The Hon. J. G. MILES (Templestowe Province)-I support the motion of condolence with respect to Sir Henry, as did Mr Arnold and other honourable members, on a more personal note. I seek the indulgence of the House for a couple of personal reminiscences about Sir Henry. I was a young school teacher when I first met Sir Henry, with some trepidation, at Scotch College. Sir Henry was an imposing figure in those days, even though he was then known as Harry Winneke. I was coaching the cricket team in which his sons were playing, but I did not know how I would be received by him. I was pleased that Sir Henry tolerated even young whippersnappers like me. Sir Henry and his wife made my wife and me welcome among the parents and Scotch College fraternity, as did their two sons. Earlier my Leader, Mr Hunt, referred to the speech-making ability of Sir Henry. I have had the honour of Sir Henry and his former wife putting on a pre-wedding party for my wife and myself. I remember the length and brilliance of his speech, although I thInk most of it went over my wife's head. I also remember young , unwanted, hiding behind the couch with a tape­ recorder. I could see his feet, but nobody else knew he was there. At that time Sir Henry's sons were outstanding sportsmen: Michael was captain of the cricket and football teams and John was an outstanding footballer and cricketer. People like lan Law and Bob Cowper from those teams later went on to bigger things. I should mention that Harry Winneke was a tremendous supporter of football and the . He was a foundation member of that club's supporters' group, the Confreres, and of the social club. He got enormous pleasure on a Saturday from supporting the Hawthorn Football Club. It must have given him a great deal of joy in 1961 when Hawthorn won the premiership and his son, John, was one of the players. He was always a man of good humour and good fun and he had a gregarious nature. Death ofD. K. McKellar, Esquire 18 March 1986 COUNCIL 5

Harry Winneke, as we all knew him, did not change. When some people have high office bestowed upon them their attitudes often change but Harry Winneke, despite all the high honours he had bestowed on him, was, just before he died, the same person to his friends that he had been 30 years earlier. He was a man of integrity and humour, a gregarious man who loved people and could mix in any company yet remain dignified. He deserved the honours that were bestowed on him. I join with other honourable members in passing on condolences to his family. The Hon. K. I. M. WRIGHT (North Western Province)-Ijoin with other honourable members in extending condolences. As President of the Victorian Parliamentary Tennis Club I must say that I and members of the team used to enjoy the annual visit to Government House. Sir Henry hosted the proceedings and, although he did not actually play himself, Captain Charles Curwen and others did. It was an occasion looked forward to by all honourable members. After the morning game was concluded, Sir Henry and the former Lady Winneke would ask us to remain with them for lunch, which was always a most enjoyable occasion. Sir Henry proved to be a most gracious host and also proved to be a most gracious loser. Most of the time, however, his team won. He was able to persuade players like Neale Fraser and others of similar ilk to join his team and we found it difficult to overcome them. As a member representing one of the largest provinces, with my colleague, Mr Dunn, it amazed me that His Excellency was able to visit our electorate so frequently. We were also delighted with the way in which Sir Henry and the former Lady Winneke endeared themselves to everyone. I support the motion. The PRESIDENT-I wish to associate myself with the remarks made by honourable members in their expressions of respect and condolences to the Winneke family. The motion was agreed to in silence, honourable members showing their unanimous agreement by standing in their places. DEATH OF DONALD KELSO McKELLAR, ESQUIRE The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs)-I move: That this House expresses its sincere sorrow at the death, on 5 January 1986, of Donald Kelso McKellar, Esquire, and places on record its acknowledgement of the valuable services rendered by him to the Parliament and the people of Victoria as member of the Legislative Assembly for the electoral district of Portland from 1967 to 1970 and from 1973 to 1983. It is with sadness that I announce also the death during the Parliamentary recess of Don McKellar. Donald Kelso McKellar died on Sunday, 5 January at the age of 61 years. He was born and educated in Hamilton and was a bomber pilot in Lancaster SQuadrons during the second world war. In 1974 he began what I call his formal public life by following in the footsteps of his father on the Dundas Shire Council as a shire councillor. It is clear that he was successful in that role because three years later, in 1967, he was elected to the seat of Portland. In 1970 due to a combination of circumstances, he was defeated in Portland. However, in 1973 he returned to that seat and held it until he retired at the end of the last Parliament. I might say that he retired mainly due to ill health. The seat he left at that point is now held by a notable former member of this House, the Honourable Digby Crozier. Don McKellar was a member of the Glenel~ Regional Committee and the Portland Development Committee. He was able to ~uide Issues in his electorate well. He was a man who worked carefully and quietly. In thiS Parliament he served on the Meat Industry Committee, the former State Development Committee and the Natural Resources and Environment Committee. During the last term of Parliament-and in his last term of Parliament-he was a member of the Natural Resources and Environment Committee and was involved in many recommendations to improve the circumstances with respect 6 COUNCIL 18 March 1986 Death olD. K. McKellar, Esquire to litter and the recycling of drinkin~ containers. I mention that because the report came to me at that time as the responsible Minister. It was a significant report and Don McKellar played a significant part in its presentation. The recommendations in the report are being implemented. Don McKellar was committed to the development of the t>

He made a great contribution not only to his electorate but also to the State as a whole and one of the finest qualities that he possessed was that of loyalty-to his family, his party and to his country. I certainly miss him greatly and I wish to convey to Margaret and the rest of his family my deepest sympathy on theIr loss. The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN (Western Province)-I regarded Don McKellar as a very close friend. That friendship went back prior to my initially entering the Legislative Assembly, where I served with Don for three years, to a time when both of us were members of the Portland Development Committee in the years between 1970 and 1973. As Mr Hunt has said, Don's community service started when as a mere youth, he was a bomber pilot over Germany. It is a sign of the man that he very seldom spoke about that period. It was hard to get any information out of him about his experiences, except about some of the seamier sides of it, which were told in a very funny way. Don was a passionate supporter of the development of the port of Portland; his feeling for the ethos of the area was tremendous. He was a great historian, he had a great knowledge of the history of local settlement, the history of individual properties and he had charts that showed the number of stock running on each property in the 1860s, what the property was producing and the number of people employed. From the early development of the port of Portland back in the last century to its more massive development this decade, he was always to the forefront in being able to produce the facts and figures needed to support the argument for the development of that port, which he believed to be, and many of us believed to be, the key to the development of western Victoria. I had the opportunity of travelling in Don's company and often when we were travelling to Portland I would pick him up on the way. The only disadvantage in that situation was that Don was not allowed to smoke in my car; consequently, by the time we had arrived iri Portland he was extremely toey. I very much valued Don's assessment of a situation because he always gave one a frank answer. He would forget all about the mumbo jumbo and legalese and was able to capture the essence of an argument to come up with an answer which made a lot of common sense and of which ultimately the rest of us took notice. Ifanything I shall miss and do miss the recourse to that advice and the warm nature of the man. I know my wife and children were very attached to Don and we do miss him. Margaret, his wife, was a tower of strength to Don for many years. He had a wonderful family. I think three of his five daughters are now living in Hamilton. I pass on my condolences to Margaret and the girls. I am very happy to be able to support the motion before the House. The Hon. R. M. HALLAM (Western Province)-I am pleased to be able to be associated with this motion. My relationship with Don goes back to my earliest recollections, and I counted him as a very close friend. I had been a neighbour as well as a constituent of Don for some years. I am proud our friendship endured even though I contested the seat of Portland in 1979. Don and I shared a great deal. It was always a great pleasure to meet him wherever he was and to share a yam with him. I shall miss him, as will the people of Portland and Yulecart. I, too, am very proud to be able to pass on to his family the condolences of myself and my family. The PRESIDENT-Order! Before putting the motion I should also like to associate myself with it. I suppose few of us in this place get to know honourable members of the opposing parties in another place because we have so little to do with them. I had little to do with Don until I became a member of the former State Development Committee. As Mr Hunt and Mr Knowles did, I can also remember summing up the other members of the committee at its first meeting. I listened to the debate across the table and at one stage I thought that Don had actually fallen asleep. When all the fire had finished, he spoke a Adjournment 18 March 1986 COUNCIL 9 few droll words in which he summed up the whole situation, made sense and put everyone in their box. That was his style. Don had a quick mind underneath an apparent Quietness and lackadaisical attitude. His quick mind allowed him to sum up a Question very Quickly and a man such as that was able to make a great contribution to Parliament, to his electorate and to the former State Development Committee. I should like to support all honourable members in this motion. The motion was agreed to in silence, honourable members showing their unanimous agreement by standing in their places.

ADJOURNMENT The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs)-I move: That. as a further mark of respect to the memory of the late Honourable Sir Henry Arthur Winneke and Donald Kelso McKellar, Esquire, the House do now adjourn until five o'clock this day. The motion was agreed to. The House adjourned at 3.50 p.m. The PRESIDENT took the chair at 5.2 p.m.

CONSTITUTION (GOVERNOR'S SALARY AND PENSION) BILL The PRESIDENT announced the receipt of a message from His Excellency the Lieutenant-Governor, intimating that His Excellency had caused the Constitution (Governor's Salary and Pension) Bill, which was reserved on 22 October 1985, for the signification of Her Majesty's pleasure thereon, and received Her Majesty's assent on 18 November 1985, to be proclaimed in the Government Gazette.

JOINT SITTING OF PARLIAMENT Victorian Institute of Marine Sciences The PRESIDENT-I have received the following letter from the Minister for Conservation, Forests and Lands: Dear Mr President The statute relating to the Victorian Institute of Marine Sciences provides for Governor in Council appointment of, among others, three members of Parliament to the governing council ofthe institute. Members are recommended for appointment as an outcome of a joint sitting of the Legislative Council and the Legislative Assembly conducted in accordance with the rules adopted for the purpose by the members present at the sitting. The three members of Parliament currently appointed are: Mr B Evans, MP; Or R J H Wells, MP; and Mr G Stirling, MP; Their terms of appointment expire on 1 March 1986. Accordingly, I would be grateful if you could arrange for such ajoint sitting to recommend three members for appointment to these impending vacancies under the terms of the Victorian Institute of Marine Sciences Act, No.8607,1974. Yours sincerely JOAN E. KIRNER Minister for Conservation, Forests and Lands 10 COUNCIL 18 March 1986 State ReliefCommittee Bill

I have also received the following message from the Assembly: Mr President, The Legislative Assembly acquaint the Legislative Council that they have agreed to the following resolution: That this House meets the Legislative Council for the purpose of sitting and voting together to choose three members of the Parliament of Victoria to be recommended for appointment to the Council of the Victorian Institute of Marine Sciences, and proposes that the place and time of such meeting be the Legislative Assembly Chamber on Wednesday, 19 March 1986, at 60'cJock. with which they desire the concurrence of the Legislative Council. The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs)-By leave, I move: That this House meet the Legislative Assembly for the purpose of sitting and voting together to recommend members of the Parliament of Victoria for appointment to the council of the Victorian Institute of Marine Sciences and, as proposed by the Assembly, the place and time of such meeting be the Legislative Assembly Chamber on Wednesday, 19 March 1986 at six o'cJock. The motion was agreed to. It was ordered that a message be sent to the Legislative Assembly acquainting them with the foregoing resolution.

STATE RELIEF COMMIITEE BILL This Bill was recieved from the Assembly and, on the motion of the Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs), was read a first time. LEGAL AID COMMISSION (AMENDMENT) BILL This Bill was received from the Assembly and, on the motion of Hon. J. H. KENNAN (Attorney-General), was read a first time. EXTRACTIVE INDUSTRIES (AMENDMENT) BILL This Bill was received from the Assembly and, on the motion of the Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Health), was read a first time. EDUCATION (MISCELLANEOUS MAITERS) BILL This Bill was received from the Assembly and, on the motion of the Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs), was read a first time.

MELBOURNE SAILORS' HOME BILL This Bill was received from the Assembly and, on the motion of the Hon. C. J. HOGG (Minister for Community Services), was read a first time.

TRANSFER OF LAND (SHARE INTERESTS) BILL This Bill was received from the Assembly and, on the motion of the Hon. J. H. KENNAN (Attorney-General), was read a first time.

COURTS AMENDMENT BILL thlS'B'ill was receivedirom ~he Assembly and, on the motion of the Hon. J. H. KENNAN (Attorney-General), was read a first time'. ' . Building Societies Bill 18 March 1986 COUNCIL 11

BUILDING SOCIETIES BILL This Bill was received from the Assembly and, on the motion of the Hon. J. H. KENNAN (Attorney-General), was read a first time. PARLIAMENTARY LIBRARIAN The PRESIDENT-Order! As Chairman of the Library Committee I inform the House that following the retirement of Miss Josephine McGovern, the Governor in Council has formalized the appointment of Mr Bruce James Davidson as Librarian, with effect from 16 February 1986. I know honourable members would wish to join me in congratulating Mr Davidson and wishing him every success in his new position.

QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

APPEAL TO ESTABLISH HOMOSEXUAL BROTHEL The Hon. A. J. HUNT (South Eastern Province)-The Minister for Planning and Environment will be aware that an appeal against the refusal of a permit by the Collingwood City Council for the establishment of a homosexual brothel in Islington Street, Collingwood, will. shortly be heard by the Planning Appeals Board. Does the Minister accept that the consideratIon of this appeal involves a major issue of public policy and, if so, will he utilize his power to intervene in the case on that basis? The Hon. J. H. KENNAN (~Iinister for Planning and Environment)-I do not propose to intervene in the case. DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE AND RURAL AFFAIRS The Hon. B. P. DUNN (North Western Province)-Is the Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs aware of some deterioration of morale within his department caused by the uncertainty surrounding the major reorganization of the department's structure in this State? Will he indicate to the House the current position of the reorganization and, in particular, plans to establish a regional structure in Victoria? Will he indicate the basis for those regions, the staffing structures and whether the regions will have powers in addition to those that are already held by existing districts? The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs)-In response to the several questions asked, I assure Mr Dunn that I have recently visited a number of district offices and regional offices of agriculture and I can inform him that a buoyant morale currently exists within the Department of Agriculture and Rural Affairs. It is true that si~nificant change has taken place in recent times. Whenever change takes place confUSIon and frustration are likely to occur. I accept that may be the comments he has heard may have caused him to have asked the question in that fashion. Both the department and I are working rapidly to bring into effect a new structure. If Mr Dunn would like a briefing on the structure I shall be happy to give it to him. The work done on our behalf by the consultants of the Public Service Board has brought forward a structure which will be simpler, leaner and more directly related to the work of the department over the next several years. It also means that a number of appointments to senior positions will be made in the near future. The terminology will also be altered. Instead of a director-general, the department will have a chief general manager and three general managers will work under the chief general manager. The general manager of rural policy and marketing will have 12 COUNCIL 18 March 1986 Questions without Notice two managers reporting to him, one dealing with marketing, which is an initiative to which the Government is giving high priority, and one dealing with rural affairs, with which the Leader of the National Party must be familiar. Mr Dunn also referred to reorganization and regionalization, which was a recommendation of the Public Service Board study. Work is being undertaken to determine what that will entail and how it may be managed. The work is not yet complete, but I assure Mr Dunn that regionalization, if it is proceeded with in the department, will not reduce the effectiveness, or even the normal manner of delivery of services to the people in rural Victoria. Honourable members interjecting. The Hon. E. H. WALKER-If honourable members want an answer, they had better listen. I am doing my best to respond to the question. I am conscious ofconcern, particularly from honourable members representing country electorates and from rural communities generally, that sometimes regionalization may mean change in the way services are delivered. I am conscious that in the past the Department of Agriculture and Rural Affairs has had a fine network of district officers and that the front line of the work-which is the highly important approach-must be maintained so that the work of the department can be kept in close touch with the people who need it most. I assure Mr Dunn that if there is any decision on regionalization, he and other honourable members will be among the first to hear of it. COMMONWEALTH FUNDING FOR VICTORIAN INSTITUTIONS The Hon. D. E. HENSHAW (Geelong Province)-My question to the Minister for Community Services relates to the personal interest the Minister has taken in the level of funding provided by the Commonwealth Government to organizations-such as Karingal in Geelong-which provide residential services for disabled people. The Minister advised the House late last year that she had met with the Federal Minister for Community Services Senator Gnmes, to press the case of such Victorian organizations. Will the Minister now advise the House of the outcome of those discussions? The Hon. C. J. HOGG (Minister for Community Services)-I thank Mr Henshaw for his question because I know that a lot of interest has been shown by a number of honourable members, especially Mr Henshaw and Mr Knowles, in the fate ofKaringal and the review being undertaken by Commonwealth officers of the Department of Community Services. I am delighted to inform the House that I have been informed by officers of my department that the review, which really involved a detailed examination of day-to-day financial difficulties at Karinp'l, has resulted in a speedy response from Senator Grimes. The subsidy level for staff reSidential conditions has been increased from 50 per cent to 80 per cent, which is a workable and manageable level, and Karingal is delighted with the result of that. I understand that Senator Grimes has officers reviewing the financial situation of several other similar organizations and I look forward to being able to inform the House of the outcome of those reviews as well. RESIDENTIAL TENANCIES BILL The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN (Western Province)-Is the Attorney-General aware that the failure of the Government to bring the Residential Tenancies Bill on for debate since it was introduced some four months ago is contributing to the extreme shortage of residential accommodation and a consequent escalation in rentals? Will the Government bring the Bill on for debate this week? Questions without Notice 18 March 1986 COUNCIL 13

The Hon. J. H. KENNAN (Attorney-General)-The Residential Tenancies Bill is an excellent Bill and the House will be aware that it covers a number of significant issues. It introduces a situation of equity into issues relating to landlords and tenants. The Hon. M. A. Birrell-Does Beth Gleeson agree with that? The Hon. J. H. KENNAN-All honourable members agree with it. The Bill deals with the important issue of bonds. Honourable members would be aware that housing is one of the most fundamental issues and I look forward to receiving an indication from honourable members opposite that the Bill will be passed. The Opposition wishes to obstruct the Government in putting forward a major reform measure on which it has received a mandate at two successive elections. It is noticeable that Mr Long is not prepared to say whether the Opposition will support or oppose the measure. The PRESIDENT-Order! I suggest that the Attorney-General answer the question and Opposition members refrain from interjecting to allow him to do so. The Hon. J. H. KENNAN-When the Government receives an indication from the Opposition that it is prepared to support the Bill and behave responsibly, the Government will proceed with the measure. ABORIGINAL LAND RIGHTS The Hon. R. M. HALLAM (Western Province)-I direct my question to the Minister for Planning and Environment in his capacity as Minister in charge of Aboriginal affairs and I congratulate him on that appointment. I refer the Minister to the about-face by the Hawke Government on Aboriginal land rights, which I take to represent a recognition that the previous policy was out of step with the views of Australians generally. I ask the Minister whether this change of heart by his Federal colleagues will lead to a similar sane stance by this Government?" The Hon. J. H. KENNAN (Minister for Planning and Environment)-The Victorian Government has had a distinct position on Aboriginal matters, including land rights. A Bill relating to Framlin~am has been introduced into the House, and another Bill relating to Aboriginal affairs is In the pipeline. The Government will be pursuing those issues and related issues of compensation in discussions with the Federal Government and the Aboriginal community. DEPARTMENT OF CONSERVATION, FORESTS AND LANDS The Hon. G. A. SGRO (Melbourne North Province)-I ask the Minister for Conservation, Forests and Lands: as land degradation is seen by many farmers as the key environmental issue in Victoria, are the staffing and programs of the Department of Conservation, Forests and Lands geared to tackle these problems, particularly in the area of soil conservation and salinity? The Hon. J. E. KIRNER (Minister for Conservation, Forests and Lands)-There has been some controversy in the media about the ability of the Department of Conservation, Forests and Lands to service soil conservation. I assure honourable members that both the staffing and approach of my department are well placed to service the particularly important issue of land de$fadation. At present 40 scientific officers and 22 technical officers provide those services. In addition, eight officers with a background in soil conservation hold senior field positions. They all have soil conservation skills and experience and organize their regions accordingly. Further, I have moved to strengthen the staffing in this area. There will be eight new scientific officer positions for the specific purpose of salinity control. These positions have 14 COUNCIL 18 March 1986 Questions without Notice been advertised and are in the process of being filled. Positions for ten scientists were advertised in the Government Gazette of 21 January 1986, four of whom will operate directly at the advisory and extension level and six of whom will operate as planning officers in the field, including soil conservation. A process is under way in my department to appoint technical officers in each of the specialist operational areas. Preliminary figures indicated that a further twelve such specialist officers will be required to provide extension and advisory services in soil conservation .. Therefore, the actual total will be 66· scientific officers and 34 technical officers. I also wish to say that the National Soil Conservation Program is a very imp<>rtant part of my department's responsibility in Victoria. This year we have just over $500 000 to administer and we are administerin~ that mainly through group schemes. During the Parliamentary break I have been dehghted to viSit several country areas and to see the effects of group conservation practices. Two recent examples are the Silvan group conservation area and the Goorambat East group in the Benalla region, which demonstrate that the department has the ability not only to service but also to encourage country people to become involved in soil conservation in farming. PUBLIC TRUSTEE The Hon. HADOON STOREY (East Yarra Province)-I ask the Attorney-General whether it is a fact that Mr P. T. Spencer, the Public Trustee, has joined the growing ranks of senior public servants to be hpushed down lift wells" by the Minister for Health or superseded? If so, why was no public announcement made of this event? The Hon. J. H. KENNAN (Attorney-General)-The assertion is mischievous. Mr Spencer has taken up a senior position in another department. HOSPITAlS AMALGAMATION The Hon. B. T. PULLEN (Melbourne Province)-The question I direct to the Minister for Health concerns amalgamation and restructuring issues, which are often quite sensitive to the people concerned and generally, as for example, with local government restructuring, but I refer to the amalgamation of hospitals. I should like the Minister to inform the House of the current situation with the amalgamation of the Royal Melbourne Hospital and the Essendon and District Memorial Hospital. The Hon; D. R. WHITE (Minister for Health)-The amalgamation of the Royal Melbourne Hospital and the Essendon and District Memorial Hospital was announced today. Each hospital will retain its own name. At 4 p.m. today, the board met for the first time. The Hon. G. P. Connard-Which hospital board? The Hon. D. R. WHITE-The board of the amalgamated hospitals. For the first time the new committee of management of the Melbourne and Essendon hospitals board met. As a result of that amalgamation there is a new opportunity to reduce the waiting times for orthopaedic surgery, as there will be 24 orthopaedic beds available at Essendon, as well as ten day-surgery beds and 48 rehabilitation beds. I look foward to that occurring by about the middle of the year. In addition to that, the opening of ten day-surgery beds alone will enable more than 2000 patients a year to be operated on. I am pleased to announce that the chairman of orthopaedic surgery' at the Royal Melbourne Hospital\ Mr Kevin King, will visit Canada in the next few weeks to examine day-surgery practices in orthopaedic surgery there. The provision of the new facility will mean that the Essendon hospital will be open in the middle of the year. It will provide a Questions without Notice 18 March 1986 COUNCIL 15 new range of services for people in Melbourne generally and in Essendon in particular. I am pleased that a number of people from Essendon and district have seen fit to be represented on the board of the amalgamated hospital. PLANNING APPEALS BOARD The Hon. ROBERT LAWSON (Higinbotham Province)-Has the Minister for Planning and Environment appointed Ms Toni Logan, Vice Chairperson of the Australian Labor Party Planning Committee, as Chairperson of the Planning Appeals Board; what experience has she had in matters before the board and in giving the rulings customarily required to be given by the chairperson? The Hon. J. H. KENNAN (Minister for Planning and Environment)-My predecessor, Mr Walker, made this excellent appointment. CASTLE MAINE PRISON The Hon. K. I. M. WRIGHT (North Western Province)-My question without notice to the Attorney-General concerns gaols in Victoria. Most honourable members in this House realize that Victoria's gaols are filled to overflowing and, in fact, that some of the inmates have recently voluntarily tried to assist in overcoming that problem. More specifically my question concerns the Castlemaine Prison, and I ask the Attorney­ General whether he is aware of the economic importance to the residents of Castlemai ne of the old gaol and also of the gaol that is to be constructed; whether he can inform the House when building of the new gaol is likely to commence; and when the gaol is likely to be in operation. The Hon. J. H. KENNAN (Attorney-General)-I thank Mr Wright for his question and for his interest in penal reform. I have had discussions with the City of Castlemai ne and I welcome the constructive approach that the city has adopted towards the planning and the building of the new gaol. Some issues remain to be addressed concerning the impact that the project will have, especially on employment opportunities in the area. I shall have further discussions on those matters with the City of Castlemaine. The Government proposes to proceed with a medium security gaol there. It will house a range of medium to low security prisoners, and will have facilities for all of those prisoners, as well as good industry facilities. I am unable to give a precise starting date at this stage, but I should hope within the next month to have more information on that; I hope the project will commence during the 1986-87 financial year. PROPOSED MELBOURNE CONVENTION CENTRE AND HOTEL The Hon. JOAN COXSEDGE (Melbourne West Province)-My question is directed to the Minister for Planning and Environment. The Hon. M. A. Birrell-Are you having trouble with your right wing, Joan? The Hon. JOAN COXSEDGE-Mr Birrell will be pleased to know that the left wing is, however, very strong! In December last year the Port of Melbourne Authority placed on public exhibition an environment effects statement for a new Melbourne convention centre and hotel on the Yarra bank adjacent to the World Trade Centre building. Will the Minister advise the House of his assessment of the environmental effects of this proposal? The Hon. J. H. KENNAN (Minister for Planning and Environment)-I thank Mrs Coxsedge for her question and congratulate her on being able to move so rapidly from corporate affairs issues, on which she questioned me so rigorously last year, 10 the important, matter of planning.' . .'.' 16 COUNCIL 18 March 1986 Questions without Notice

I have today advised the Minister for Industry, Commerce and Technology of my assessment that the proposal, as exhibited, will not have any adverse environmental effects. Some sixteen submissions on the environment effects statement were received, and those submissions canvassed a range of issues, including the visual aspect of the hotel, public access along the riverside, the relationship of the proposed buildings to the World Trade Centre and the likely traffic movement. The proposed buildings will make a significant contribution to the Government's program for dramatically changing the city section of the riverside through from the National Tennis Centre. In this context I pay tribute to my predecessor, the Honourable Evan Walker, who has had the most amazing effect, the full impact of which will not be fully understood for some years. His tenure in the planning portfolio will result in the greatest transformation of a city since Baron Haussmann planned Paris. Honourable members interjecting. The Hon. J. H. KENNAN-Those honourable members who are familiar with planning issues would know the name. I notice the appalling silence! The transformation will be felt from the National Tennis Centre on the northern bank of the river, downstream from Swanston Street to the Southbank redevelopment, the Banana Alley redevelopment and the convention centre and the World Trade Centre. It will be the most dramatic regeneration, including enormous capacity for public access, that any city in this country will have seen in such a short time. This design allows for full public access downstream from the bridge to the World Trade Centre, and these buildings will provide a feature to mirror the developments on the opposite bank. Anyone who understood the 10limont launch will know that the Government's proposals for Olympic Park in 10limont and the National Tennis Centre will add not less than 9·7 hectares of parkland to that area. ST NICHOLAS HOSPITAL SITE The Hon. M. A. BIRRELL (East Yarra Province)-Will the Minister for Planning and Environment agree to table in the Parliamentary Library the files regarding the guidelines for the redevelopment of the St Nicholas Hospital site in Carlton, and will he table his departmental file on the rezoning of that site? The Hon. J. H. KENNAN (Minister for Planning and Environment)-I will consider the matter. FREEDOM OF INFORMATION REQUEST The Hon. D. M. EVANS (North Eastern Province)-My question is directed to the Minister for Conservation, Forests and Lands. On 25 February I wrote to the Minister's department seeking details under the Freedom of Information Act on the appointment of Ms Carole Marple to a position of public prominence and seeking documents, including the names of the applicants, the names on the short list and the details of their applications. I have now received correspondence indicating that that information will not be available until 17 April, if at all. Can the Minister explain why it takes seven weeks to provide that sort of information to a member of Parliament under the Freedom of Information Act? The Hon. J. E. KIRNER (Minister for Conservation, Forests and Lands)-I congratulate the honourable member on his interest in this excellent appointment. I am perfectly happy to provide those details but, under the guidelines on freedom of information, it is appropriate in personnel matters to inquire of applicants for jobs whether they want details of their applications to be revealed. That may take a little time. The Hon. M. A. Birrell-Talk to her on Saturday night. She is your mate. Correction ofBill Titles 18 March 1986 COUNCIL 17

The Hon. J. E. KIRNER-Mr Birrell would be better served if she were one of his mates. The Hon. M. A. Birrell-We don't appoint mates. The Hon. J. E. K1RNER-Ifand when agreement of the applicants to the releasing of those details is received, I shall be happy to make them available. CORRECfION OF BILL TITLES The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs)-By leave, I move: That where a Bill has passed through both Houses and any title of the Bill includes a reference to a calendar year earlier than that in which passage of a Bill was completed, the Clerk of the Parliaments be empowered to alter the calendar year reference in any title of the Bill and any corresponding reference within the Bill itself to the year in which passage of the Bill was so completed. By way of explanation, this is not the first time that a similar motion has been moved. Honourable members will be aware that there are still current, in the Houses, several Bills that were introduced in a previous calendar year. Any of those Bills which are passed into law from now on will require adjustment so that the year expressed in the title reflects the year of enactment. . By this motion, the Clerk of the Parliaments will be empowered to effect those minor changes prior to presenting Bills for Royal assent and so relieve the Houses of passing purely formal amendments and exchanging messages on that account. A similar motion has been passed in another place, and I commend it to the House. The motion was agreed to. PETITIONS Child care services The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN (Western Province)-I present a petition from certain citizens of Victoria seeking an assurance that child care and kindergarten pro~ms will continue to be provided and funded by Government. The petition is respectfully worded, in order, and bears 40 signatures. I desire the petition to be read. The Standing Orders were suspended to enable the petition to be read, and the petition was read by the Clerk. It was in the following terms: To THE HONOURABLE THE PRESIDENT AND MEMBERS OF THE LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL IN PARLIAMENT ASSEMBLED: We the undersigned wish to express our concerns regarding the future of child care and kindergarten programs in the State of Victoria. We parents of young children and citizens of your electorate seek your assurance that these services, which are essential to the well-being of the community will continue to be provided and funded by your Government not only in the coming year but in the years that lie ahead. And your petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray. It was ordered that the petition be laid on the table. Rural Water Commission offices The Hon. K. I. M. WRIGHT (North Western Province) presented a petition from certain citizens of Victoria objecting to the proposed relocation of the Rural Water Commission administration offices from Red Cliffs to Mildura and praying for office accommodation, as required, to be constructed in Red Cliffs. He stated that the petition was respectfully worded, in order, and bore 523 signatures. 18 COUNCIL 18 March 1986 Margarine (Repeal) Bill

It was ordered that the petition be laid on the table. Mining on Crown land The Hon. K. I. M. WRIGHT (North Western Province) presented a petition from certain citizens of Victoria praying that because it is detrimental to natural bushland, the health of residents and the amenity of the area, the use of heavy machinery and/or explosives be discontinued in connection with mining on Crown land in the urban zone ofthe Wedderburn township. He stated that the petition was respectfully worded, in order, and bore 479 signatures. It was ordered that the petition be laid on the table. MARGARINE (REPEAL) BILL The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs), by leave, moved for leave to bring in a Bill to provide for the amendment and repeal of the Margarine Act 1975, and for other purposes. The motion was agreed to. The Bill was brought in and read a first time. ADMINISTRATIVE ARRANGEMENTS The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs)-By leave, I move: That there be laid before this House copies of Administrative Arrangements Orders (Nos 41 and 42) made pursuant to the Administrative Arrangements Act 1983. The motion was agreed to. The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs) presented the orders in compliance with the foregoing order. It was ordered that the orders be laid on the table. On the motion of the Hon. HADDON STOREY (East Yarra Province), it was ordered that the orders be taken into consideration on the next day of meeting. PAPERS The following papers, pursuant to the directions of several Acts of Parliament, were laid on the table by the Clerk: Annual Reporting Act 1983- Treasurer's advice of exemptions approved as to content of annual financial statements of various departments. Treasurer's advice of exemptions approved as to content of annual reports of various public bodies. Arts Centre Trust-Report for the year 1984-85. Construction Industry Long Service Leave Board-Report for the year 1984-85. Country Fire Authority-Report for the year 1984-85. Economic Development Corporation-Report for the year 1984-85. Education Act 1958-Minister's certificate of II December 1985 regarding the resumption of land at Yarra Junction. Film Victoria-Report for the year 1984-85.

Fishing Industry Council-Report for th~ year 1984-85. Geelong and District Water 'Board-RepOrt and accounts for the year 1984-85. Papers 18 March 1986 COUNCIL 19

Government Employee Housing Authoritr-Report for the year 1984-85. Grain Elevators Board-Report and financial statements for the year 1984-85. Greyhound Racing Control Board-Report and accounts for the year 1984-85. Groundwater-Report on the investigation program for the period January 1983 to June 1984. Hospitals Superannuation Fund-Report on actuarial investigation oflump sum scheme as at 30 June 1984. J.,..and Conservation Council-Final recommendations to the Minister as to the North-eastel"l) Area (Benalla-Upper Murray) Review. , Latrobe Valley Water and Sewerage Board-Report and accounts for the year 1984-8'5. Law Foundation-Report for the year 1985. Melbourne College of Advanced Education-Report for the year 1984. Melbourne University-Report of the council, together with statutes and regulations allowed by His Excellency the Governor for the year 1984 (nine papers). Police Service Board­ Determination Nos 446 and 447. Determination No. 4 for the Retired Police Reserve. Poultry Farmer Licensing Committee-Report for the year 1984-85. State Employees Retirement Benefits Board-Report for the year 1984-85. Statutory Rules under the following Acts of Parliament: AbattOIr and Meat Inspection Act 1973-No. 55/1986. Accident Compensation Act 1985-No. 439/ 1985. Adoption Act 1984-No. 35/1986. Alpine Resorts Act 1983-Nos 370 and 413/1985. Associations Incorporation Act 1981-No. 15/1986. Boilers and Pressure Vessels Act 1970-Nos 417, 418 and 421/1985; and Nos 18 and 19/1986. Business Franchise (Tobacco) Act I 974-No. 402/1985. Business Names Act 1962-No. 11/1986. Chiropodists Act 1968-No. 26/1986. Chiropractors and Osteopaths Act 1978-No. 394/1985. Coal Mines Act 1958-No. 358/1985. Companies (Application of Laws) Act 1981-No. 363/1985. Construction Industry Long Service Leave Act 1983-Nos 17 and 57/1986. Country Fire Authority Act 1958-No. 409/1985. County Court Act 1958-No. 445/1985. Credit (Administration) Act 1984-No. 44/1986. Dental Technicians Act 1972-Nos 25 and 30/1986. Dried Fruits Act 1958-No. 2/1986. Drugs. Poisons and Controlled Substances Act 1981-No. 29/1986. Energy Consumption Levy Act 1982-No. 403/1985. Environment Protection Act 197O-No. 435/1985. Evidence Act 1958-No. 13/1986. Explosives Act 1960-No. 425/1985. Extractive Industries Act] 966-No. 374/] 985. Farm Produce Merchants and Commission Agents Act] 965-No. 1/] 986. Films Act 1971-No. ]4/1986. Financia] Institutions Duty Act 1982-No. 404/1985. 20 COUNCIL 18 March 1986 Papers

Firearms Act 1958-No. 58/1986. Food Act I 984-Nos 431 and 432/1985. Forests Act 1958-No. 368/1985. Geelong Regional Commission Act I 977-No. 369/ 1985. Groundwater Act 1969-No. 373/1985. Health Act 1958-Nos 364, 388 to 392, 395 to 398, 433, 434 and 436/1985; and Nos 20, 24, and 49/1986, together with copies of the following documents required by section 32 of the Interpretation of Legislation Act 1984 to accompany the Statutory Rule: Section 31 of the Commonwealth Health Insurance Act 1973-85 Commonwealth Special Gazette No. S. 112, 22 March 1984; and No. 50/1986. Hospitals and Charities Act 1958-Nos 353 and 354/1985; and No. 51/1986, together with copies of the following documents required by section 32 of the Interpretation of Legislation Act 1984 to accompany the Statutory Rule: Commonwealth Health Insurance Act 1973-85 Commonwealth National Health Act 1953-85. Hospitals Superannuation Act I 965-Nos 359 and 441/1985. Industrial Relations Act I 979-No. 56/1986. Industrial Training Act 1975-No. 372/1985. Inflammable Liquids Act 1966-No. 427/1985. Land Tax Act 1958-No. 428/1958; and No. 61/1986. Legal Profession Practice Act I 958-Nos 429 and 430/1985. Lifts and Cranes Act 1967-Nos 419 and 420/1985; and No. 21/1986. Liquefied Gases Act 1968-No. 426/1985. Liquor Control Act 1968-No. 31/1986. Local Authorities Superannuation Act 1958-No. 4/1986. Lotteries Gaming and Betting Act 1966-No. 377/1985; and No. 38/1986. Magistrates' Courts Act 1971-No. 43/1986. Medical Practitioners Act 1970-No. 28/1986. Melbourne and Metropolitan Board of Works Act 1958-Nos 437 and 438/1985. Metropolitan Fire Brigades Superannuation Act I 976-Nos 360 and 440/1985. Mildura Irrigation Trusts and Sunraysia Water Board Act 1958-Nos 45 and 46/1986. Mines Act 1958-Nos,J71 and 408/1985. Motor Boating Act 1961-Nos 5 and 52/1986. MotorCar Act I 958-Nos 361 and 411/1985. National Parks Act 1975-No. 366/1985. Nurses Act I 958-Nos 399 and 400/1985. Occupational Health and Safety Act 1985-Nos 382 to 387/1985, together with copies of the following documents required by section 32 of the Interpretation of Legislation Act 1984 to accompany the Statutory Rules: AS 1337-1984 Eye Protectors for Industrial Applications (Relating to SR 382) AS 1338-Parts I to 3-1981 Filters for Eye Protectors (Relating to SR 382) AS 1715-1982 Selection, Use and Maintenance of Respiratory Protective Devices (Relating to SR 382 and SR 386) AS 2161-1978 Industrial Safety Gloves and Mittens (Relating to SR 382) AS 2210-1980 Safety Footwear (Rel,ting to SR 382) Papers 18 March 1986 COUNCIL 21

Victoria Building Regulations 1983 (Relating to SR 383 and SR 385) Insurance Council of Ltd-Rules and requirements for the storage, handling and use of nitro-cellulose film (Relating to SR 383) AS 1801-1981 Industrial Safety Helmets (Relating to SR 385 and SR 387) AS 1716-1984 Respiratory Protective Devices (Relating to SR 386) Optometrists Registration Act 1958-No. 32/1986. Parliamentary Salaries and Superannuation Act 1968-No. 401/1985. Pay-roll Tax Act 1971-No. 34/1986. Pharmacists Act 1974-No. 393/1985. Physiotherapists Act 1978-No. 27/1986. Police Offences Act 1958-No. 12/1986. Police Regulation Act 1958-No. 406/1985; and No. 33/1986. Port of Geelong Authority Act 1958-No. 6/1986. Port of Melbourne Authority Act 1958-No. 414/1985. Post-Secondary Education Act I 978-Nos 355 and 356/1985. Professional Boxing Control Act I 985-Nos 352 and 376/1985. Protection of Animals Act 1966-No. 54/1986. Psychological Practices Act I 985-No. 407/1985. Public Service Act 1974-Nos 365, 446 and 447/1985; and PSD Nos 41 to 58/1985; and PSD Nos 1 to 3/1986. Public Trustee Act I 958-No. 9/1986. Racing Act 1958-Nos 378 to 381,410 and 415/1985. Reference Areas Act 1978-No. 367/1985. Scaffolding Act 1971-Nos 422 to 424/1985; and No. 16/1986. Shearers Accommodation Act I 976-No. 22/1986. Stamps Act 1958-No. 405/1985. State Bank Act I 958-No. 442/1985. Stock Medicines Act 1958-No. 3/1986. Superannuation Act 1958-No. 362/1985. Superannuation Benefits Act I 977-No. 60/1986. Supreme Court Act 1958-Nos 443 and 444/1985; and No. 10/1986. Teaching Service Act 1981-Nos 349 and 357/1985. Transport Act 1983-No. 412/1985. Trustee Act I 958-No. 7/1986. Venereal Diseases Act 1958-No. 47/1986. Veterinary Surgeons Act I 958-No. 334/1985. Water and Sewerage Authorities (Restructuring) Act 1983-No. 62/1986. ~ildlife Act I 986-Nos 8 and 39 to 41/1986. Youth, Sport and Recreation Act I 972-No. 375/1985; and No. 23/1986. Zoological Parks and Gardens Act 1967-No. 416/1985; and 36/1986. Subordinate Legislation Act 1962-Attorney-General's amendment to guidelines in Schedule 2 of the Act with respect to the preparation and content of statutory rules. Superannuation Board-Report for the year 1984-85. Taxation-Analysis of operations ofland tax for the assessment year 1984 and probate duty and gift duty for the year 1984-85. 22 COUNCIL 18 March 1986 Papers

Town and Country Planning Act 1961- Alberton-Shireof Alberton (Coastal) Planning Scheme-Amendments No. 26,1985 and No. 27,1985. Alexandra- Planning Scheme-Amendment No. 26. Ararat- Planning Scheme I 953-Amendment No. 34, 1985. Bacchus Marsh- Planning Scheme-Amendments Nos 29, 30, 32, 33 and 35. Ballaarat- Planning Scheme-Amendments Nos 81 and 84. Bass- Planning Scheme-Amendments Nos 20 and 26. Benalla- Planning Scheme-Amendment No. 38. Bendigo- Planning Scheme I 962-Amendment No. 38. Berwick-City of Berwick Local Development Scheme-Amendments Nos 4 and 8. Bulla-Shire of Bulla Planning Scheme 1959-Amendments No. 95, 1984; and No. 98. Buninyong- Planning Scheme-Amendment No. 26. Club Terrace Planning Scheme-Amendment No. 4. Cobram-Shire of Cobra m Planning Scheme I 979-Amendment No. 17. Cranbourne- Shire ofCranbourne Planning Scheme I 960-Amendments No: 49, 1984; and Nos 51 to 53, 1985. Shire ofCranbourne (Western Port) Planning Scheme-Amendments No. 31, 1984; and No. 38. F1inders-ShireofFlinders Planning Scheme I 962-Amendments No. 161, 1983; and No. 173A; No. 187A; and No. 190. Geelong Regional Planning Scheme-Amendments No. 107; No. 119; No. 122; No. 126, 1985; No. 128, 1985; No. 141, 1985; No. 146; and No. 152. Gisborne- Planning Scheme-Amendments No. 7, 1984; No. 8, 1984; No. 10, 1984; No. 11. 1985; No. 13. 1985; No. 16, 1985; and No. 17. Hastings-Shire of Hastings Planning Scheme I 965-Amendments No. 13, Part 2; No. 13, Part 2s; No. 28; and No. 29. Horsham- Planning Scheme I 982-Amendments No. 85, Part I; No. 94, 1984; No. 98, 1985; No. 10 I, 1985; and No. 104, 1985. Kilmore- Planning Scheme I 973-Amendment No. 57, 1984. Knox-City of Knox Planning Scheme I 965-Amendments No. 276, 1985; No. 279, 1985; No. 280, 1985; No. 281; and No. 284. Korumburra-ShireofKorumburra Planning Scheme I 959-Amendments No. 28, 1984; and No. 31,1985. Kyabram- Planning Scheme I 963-Amendment No. 15. Lake Bellfield Planning Scheme-Amendment No. 20. Lake Tyers to Cape Howe Coastal Planning Scheme-Amendment No. 17. Lillydale-Shire of Lillydale Planning Scheme 1958-Amendments Nos 175, 180, 185, 194, 199,208 and 211. Melbourne Metropolitan Planning Scheme-Amendments No. 192, Part lA (with map); No. 192, Part 2s (with map); No. 225, Part 3 (with map); No. 268, Part s (with two maps); No. 280, Part 3 (with map); No. 283, Part 3 (with five maps); No 305 (with map); No. 314, Part 2 (with map); No. 315, Part I (with 23 maps); No. 316. Part 2; No. 316. Part 3 (with three maps); No. 317, Part I (with nine maps); No. 318, Part 1 (with eleven maps); No. 319, Part 1 (with four maps); No. 338 (with map); No. 351 (with map); No. 354; No. 355. No. 357 (with map); No. 358 (with two maps); No. 359 (with map); No. 360; No. 361 (with map); No. 362 (with map); No. 364 (with map); No. 365; No. 366 (with map); No. 367; No. 368 (with map); No. 373 (with three maps); No. 378 (with seven maps); No. 391; and No. 393 (with map). Moe- Planning Scheme I 966-Amendments Nos 85 and 90. Mornington-Shire of Mornington Planning Scheme I 959-Amendments Nos 176 and 179. Morwell-Shire of Morwell Planning Scheme I 977-Amendments No. 26, 1984; and No. 35. Nurmurkah Planning Scheme 1956-Amendment No. 7. Pakenham-Shire of Pakenham Planning Scheme, Part I-Amendments Nos 38, 46 and 48. Papers 18 March 1986 COUNCIL 23

Robinvale Planning Scheme-Amendment No. 5. Rosedale- Planning Scheme-Amendments No. 37, 1983; No. 39, 1984; and No. 43, 1984. Shire of Rosedale Planning Scheme, Part 2-Amendment No. 10, 1983. Sale- Planning Scheme-Amendment No. 26. Shepparton-City of She ppart on Planning Scheme 1953-Amendments No. 83, 1984; and No. 89, 1985. Sherbrooke- Shire ofSherbrooke Planning Scheme 1979 (Rural Areas)-Amendments No. 14, 1983; and No. 33. Shire ofSherbrooke Planning Scheme 1979 (Urban Areas)-Amendments No. 5, 1982; No. 13, 1985; No. 15, 1983, Part 2; No. 16, 1983; No. 38; No. 39; and No. 40. South Gippsland-Shire of South Gippsland Planning Scheme-Amendment No. 67, 1984. Tambo-Shire ofTambo (Lakes Entrance) Planning Scheme-Amendment No. 62. Traralgon-City ofTraralgon Planning Scheme I 957-Amendments Nos 36, 59 and 68. Wangaratta Sub-Regional Planning Scheme (City ofWangaratta)-Amendments Nos 15 and 18. Warrnambool-City ofWarrnambool Planning Scheme-Amendment No. 16. Wonthaggi Coastal Planning Scheme-Amendment No. 1. Woorayl-ShireofWoorayl Planning Scheme-Amendments Nos 71 and 80. Trade Unions- Report of the Government Statist for the year 1984. Report of the Registrar of Friendly Societies for the year 1984-85. Water Act 1958-Declaration of Governor in Council of Devon Meadows-Cannons Creek flood mitigation proposal as approved scheme for the purposes of Local Government Act 1958.

Proclamations of His Excellency the Governor in Council or the Lieutenant-Governor in Council fixing operative dates in respect of the following Acts: Adoption Act 1984-Sections 68, 79, 94 to 100, 112 and 113-18 December 1985 (Gazette No. 125, 18 December 1985). Co-operation (Amendment) Act 1985-1 January 1986 (Ga:ette No. 125, 18 December 1985). Coroners Act 1985-Sections I to 3 and Part 9-12 February 1986 (Gazette No. 9, 12 February 1986). Crimes (Amendment) Act 1985-Sections I to 3 and 10-22 January 1986 (Gazette No. 4, 22 January 1986); Remaining provisions-24 March 1986 (Gazette No. 9, 12 February 1986). Education (Amendment) Act 1983-Section 11-1 January 1986 (Gazette No. 125, 18 December 1985). Education (Amendment) Act 1984-Section 19-31 December 1985 (Gazette No. 125, 18 December 1985). Environment Protection (Industrial Waste) Act 1985-Sections 1 to 4,5 (a), 5 (b), 6, 7, 8 (1),8 (2),9 to 18,21 to 28,29 (1), 29 (2),29 (3) and 30 to 40-1 January 1986; sections 41 to 43-1 February 1986; sections 19 and 20-1 March 1986 (Gazette No. 125,18 December 1985). Equal Opportunity (Amendment) Act 1985-1 February 1986 (Gazette No. 4, 22 January 1986). Evidence (Amendment) Act 1985-1 February 1986 (Gazette No. 4, 22 January 1986). Firearms (Amendment) Act 1985-Sections 1 to 4 and 10 to 12-11 December 1985 (Gazette No. 122, 11 December 1985). Groundwater (Border Agreement) Act 1985-4 December 1985 (Gazette No. 121, 4 December 1985). Industrial Relations (Complementary Industrial Relations Systems) Act 1985-5 March 1986 (Gazette No. 13, 5 March 1986). Legal Profession Practice (Amendment) Act 1985-1 January 1986 (Gazette No. 125, 18 December 1985). Magistrates (Summary Proceedings) (Amendment) Act 1985-sections 1 to 3, 5 to 7, 9 (c) and 13-5 March 1986; sections 4, 9 (a), 9 (b), 10, II (a), I1tb) and 12-1 April 1986; sections 11 (c) and.ll (d)-I October 1986 (GazetteNo. 13,5 March 1986). 24 COUNCIL 18 March 1986 Young Offenders (Interstate Trans/er) Bill

Minerals and Energy Fees Act 1983-Section 11-12 March 1986 (Gazette No. 13, 5 March 1986). National Mutual Permanent Building Society Act 1985-1 February 1986 (Gazette No. 4, 22 January 1986). National Parks (Amendment) Act 1984-Sections 4 (7) and 4 (8)-7 January 1986 (Gazette No. 122, II December 1985); section 4 (4)-26 February 1986 (Gazette No. 12,26 February (986). National Parks (Further Amendment) Act I 984-Section 4 (5)-11 December 1985 (Gazette No. 121, 4 December (985). Nurses (Amendment) Act 1985-1 March 1986 (Gazette (No. 12, 26 February 1986). Penalties and Sentences Act 1985-Sections 1 to 4 and 20 to 24-12 February 1986 (Gazette No. 9, 12 February 1986); section 113-26 February 1986 (Gazette No. 12,26 February 1986). Police Regulation (Amendment) Act 1985-Sections 1 to 5, 7,8, 13, and 15 to 21-11 December 1985 (Gazette No. 122, II December 1985). Pre-School Teachers and Assistants (Portability of Long Service Leave) Act 1984-18 December 1985 (Gazette No. 125, 18 December 1985). . Sale of Land (Allotments) Act 1985-1 January 1986 (Gazette No. 125, 18 December 1985). South Yarra Project (Sub-division and Management) Act 1985-11 December 1985 (Gazette No. 122, 11 December 1985). Transport (Amendment) Act 1985-Whole Act, except section 15-4 December 1985 (Gazette No. 121, 4 December 1985). Vermin and Noxious Weeds (Amendment) Act 1985-1 January 1986 (Gazette No. 125, 18 December 1985). Wrongs (Contribution) Act 1985-12 February 1986 (Gazette No. 9, 12 February 1986). On the motion of the Hon. HADOON STOREY (East Yarra Province), it was ordered that the papers tabled by the Clerk, with the exception of the Minister's certificate, Police Service Board determinations, statutory rules, planning schemes and proclamations, be taken into consideration on the next day of meeting. YOUNG OFFENDERS (INTERSTATE TRANSFER) BILL The debate (adjourned from November 21, 1985) on the motion of the Hon. C. J. Hog (Minister for Community Services) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed. The HOD. R. I. KNOWLES (Ballarat Province)-The Bill is designed to provide an opportunity for young interstate offenders to meet their legal obligations closer to their family in their own community. It fills a gap in interstate arrangements. Already arrangements are in place for adult offenders and also for wards of State. The Bill allows those who offend interstate and are convicted to be transferred to their home State to meet their legal obligations. The Bill seeks to redress the anomaly that existed, and follows an agreement between all the States, the Australian Capital Territory, and the Northern Territory. The Governments of all the other States and Territories have agreed to introduce complementary legislation. The Bill will actually allow for an arrangement to be entered into for a young person who has offended interstate to be transferred to his home State where comparable orders exist and similar facilities and services are provided. The transfer is subject to the agreement of the offender involved and, as it is a reciprocal arrangement between all the States and Territories, the Opposition does not oppose the Bill. The HOD. R. M. HALLAM (Western Province)-The National Party considers the Bill to be a relatively simple and practical measure, and it is very pleased to support it in its entirety. The Bill overcomes one anomaly in that, under the Prisoners (Interstate Transfer) Act 1983, adult offenders are able to be transferred interstate, whereas young offenders have to Zoological Parks and Gardens Bill 18 March 1986 COUNCIL 25 rely upon what is an informal and unofficial ad hoc arrangement depending upon reciprocal arrangements between the States. If there is an argument that adult offenders should be transferred, there is an even greater argument that young offenders should be tranferred, as proximity to family and friends is even more important in those circumstances. Of course, the primary purpose of the measure is to provide that access for the young offenders. The National Party takes the $eneral view that treatment of any offenders should primarily be directed towards rehabIlitation rather than punishment. The National Party would support any measure that would increase or improve that rehabilitation process and, therefore, the Bill, in itself, is worthy of support. Members of the National Party were interested to learn, for instance, that New South Wales has agreed to complementary legislation at this stage, and that that would overcome the bulk of circumstances with which Victoria would be directly related. Although the National Party supports the general principle of formalizing that transfer procedure, it recognizes that there are several protection mechanisms and measures that should be implemented at the same time. For example, it is important that the informed consent of the young offender directly involved is sought and recorded and that, even if that informed consent is gained, there should still be a demonstrable interest in favour of the transfer of that young offender. Obviously there must be agreement by the receiving State not only to the receipt of the young offender but also that responsibility for the treatment of that offender will be undertaken. Of course, it must be very clear that in the State to which the young offender is being transferred the penalty will not be more severe than would apply for a similar offence if incurred or committed in the State that is dispatching that offender. The National Party sees those provisions as being adequately covered by the proposed legislation, but there is also the need to protect the community at large; after all, these are people who have committed offences against the State. The Bill goes on to refer to who is to accep.t responsibility for the person while in transit, what happens if the offender escapes whIle in the custody of the escort appointed to conduct the transfer and what happens if a further offence is committed under those circumstances. The National Party considers the provisions of the Bill to be reasonable and practical and is happy to support it in its entirety. The motion was agreed to. The Bill was read a second time. The Hon. C. J. HOGG (Minister for Community Services)-By leave, I move: That this Bill be now read a third time. While doing so, I thank Mr Knowles and Mr Hallam for the co-operation I have received from them on this Bill and I thank them for their remarks. I believe the questions raised by Mr Hallam are covered in the details of the Bill. I place on record my appreciation for the support of this measure, which, particularly in view of the reforms that have been made in adult sentencing and the transfer of adult prisoners interstate, is long overdue. The motion was agreed to, and the Bill was read a third time. ZOOLOGICAL PARKS AND GARDENS (AMENDMENT) BILL The debate (adjourned from November 28, 1985) on the motion of the Hon. J. E. Kirner (Minister for Conservation, Forests and Lands) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed. 26 COUNCIL 18 March 1986 Zoological Parks and Gardens Bill

The Hon. N. B. REID (Bendigo Province)-The Melbourne Zoological Gardens have been for a long time a big part of the Melbourne scene. I recall as a small boy travelling from Kew to attend the zoo-as it was affectionately known to me and my family-back in 1949. It was always a source of great wonderment to me to visit the zoo and experience the thrill of seeing its animals and displays. The Bill is important because it makes a number of changes. It changes the quorum for meetings of the Zoological Board of Victoria from six members to "a majority of the members for the time being". It changes the title of the Director of the Zoological Parks and Gardens to the Chief Executive Officer of the Zoological Parks and Gardens and it allows the Governor in Council to waive entrance charges for admission to land administered by the board. I shall return to that because it is an important issue that will need to be handled with great sensitivity by the Government. The Bill also provides for crowd control measures on days when entry is declared free of charge and it removes restrictions on the size of an area which may be declared a zoological park. The Opposition does not oppose the Bill, but I refer to the Government's decision, which brings this matter into the political arena, because it allows the Governor in Council to waive entrance fees to the Melbourne Zoological Gardens. Honourable members will recall that the Government declared a number of free days, such as the one during the annual Senior Citizens Week, and certainly no one could object to that. Another occasion was WorkCare Day; I wonder whether the Government might consider a few other days like that, such as "Gorbachev's Birthday" or ~~Paul Keating's Socialist-Capitalist Day" when the Government could allow people free access to the zoo to have a look at property to buy there! Another free day was on the occasion of Victoria's 150th anniversary celebrations. However, what happened on that day was that costs of $165 000 were incurred for free admissions for the people of Melbourne, and the board of management of the Melbourne Zoo had to carry those costs for that year. That takes away the autonomy of the board and puts this matter back into the political arena so that the Government can gain political capital for its largesse in providing a free day at the zoo, but the board of management must pick up the responsibility for meeting the shortfall over the year's trading. In 1984, when I last attended the zoo, the admission was $4.40 for an adult and $2.20 for children, so one can see that it is a significant benefit. By interjection the Minister asks how many letters of complaint I had received. I did not have any complaints-I do not believe anybody would complain-but I assure honourable members that it makes life difficult for the board to administer the financial arrangements of the zoo. The Hon. E. H. Walker-Did any complaints come from the board? The Hon. N. B. REID-They did not complain because they would not dare to complain; the Government would probably sack them all if they did. The board is responsible for running the financial affairs of the zoo so that it does meet that shortfall. I wonder what other pretext the Government will use to declare a free day. Of course, the WorkCare Day was a purely political occasion; it had absolutely nothing to do with the zoo and I should have thought that there would have been better opportunities for a free day. The Government could have chosen another day that would have been more appropriate. The issue of free days and allowing large numbers of people into the zoo creates another problem, which is advice to the public on likely crowds and the likelihood that, after having travelled halfway across Melbourne or the State or from interstate, they may arrive at the gates and be refused admission. That issue will have to be handled with great sensi ti vi ty . The Minister would be sympathetic to that, because a problem exists. It is a matter of advising the public on the holding of a free day. Such notice should be given well in Zoological Parks and Gardens Bill 18 March 1986 COUNCIL 27 advance of the actual day so that people can heed the warning that they need to get there early because of the likelihood that not all of them may obtain admission to the zoo. More than 1 million visit the Melbourne Zoo each year. The attendance on the free day would have been as high as 47 ()()() people during the 150th anniversary celebrations. The free day rightly attracted a great deal of interest because the Zoological Board of Victoria does an excellent job in presenting the exhibits at the zoo. The free day was a wonderful exercise not only for the residents of Melbourne and Victoria but also for visitors from interstate and overseas. The zoo has received some excellent publicity through the birth of Mzuri, the baby gorilla. The Minister has taken a keen interest in the activities at the zoo and I commend her for that because those activities are worthy of support. However, I am disappointed that the board does not have the same autonomy as it previously enjoyed because the Government has seen fit to remove part of tha.t autonomy. The Opposition does not oppose the measure. However, I ask the Minister to seriously consider the issues I have raised, especially in respect of the public being disappointed at the inadequate publicity given to the free day at the zoo. One would not want too many free days at the zoo as they would reduce patronage over a time and this would be detrimental to the finances of the board and would make its life difficult. The staff and the gatekeepers at the zoo need to handle with great sensitivity young people and elderly persons who are disappointed at not being able to gain admittance to the zoo on a free day. The Hon. D. M. EVANS (North Eastern Province)-This appears to be a simple measure·in the sense that it provides for some degree of control over crowding of the zoological parks and gardens. One could be a little facetious and suggest that the animals may not like to see humans overcrowded. If the crowds cannot be controlled inside a zoological park or wildlife reserve then it is reasonable that there should be some degree of opportunity for doing so. The silliest thing to do is to have too many human beings in the one spot. It only creates conditions that are not conducive to the best viewing of the things that the zoo has to offer, but also it provides considerable management problems of organization for the authorities controlling the area and it contains some considerable elements of danger to the people within the zoo. It could create a danger for those who have been in the park early and not expecting any danger which could be increased by too many people gaining entry. The National Party has no objection to the waiving of admission charges, although I am not sure how the shortfall in revenue that will occur for the zoological parks or land administered by the Zoological Board of Victoria can be made up. So there is an element of subsidy, which does not appear to have an element of return from the Government. Perhaps the Zoological Board of Victoria or the authorities will be left to carry that particular expense. I am somewhat concerned at the removal of the restriction on the size of zoological parks, because I note that under section 4A (1) of the Zoological Parks and Gardens Act, as amended, the 400 hectares refers to land which is: ... vested in the Crown and reserved (either temporarily or permanently) under the Crown Land (Reserves) Act 1978 as a site for a zoological park or as a State wildlife reserve within the meaning of the Wildlife Act 1975 to be a zoological park to which this Act applies. I believe 400 hectares-l ()()() acres-is a considerable area of land as an unrestricted area of land gives a facility for the declaration of a very large area of land. beyond the definition of ordinary zoological gardens. If the Government intends at any time to set up a facility 28 COUNCIL 18 March 1986 Zoological Parks and Gardens Bill of that nature it should be by legislation passed by Parliament. If it is not done in that fashion, large areas ofland within the State could be designated for wildlife reserves. The Hon. J. E. Kirner-It can be now under the Crown Land (Reserves) Act. The Hon. D. M. EV ANS-I express those concerns at this stage because Parliament should have control over the areas of land that are vested in the Crown or, alternatively, should clearly understand when it is losing any degree of that control whether it be to an outside agency or to the Governor in Council. I anticipate that at some stage the Minister will refer to the points raised in debate by members of the opposition parties. It is an issue that needs to be clarified prior to the passage of the Bill. The House may need to go into Committee to discuss this issue because at this stage I am unclear on the total meaning of that clause in the Bill. Indeed, it may be a deficiency on my part that I am not more aware of it, but I seek some explanation on how far or how fast the removal of that area ofland under clause 4 of the Bill may lead us. The best way to manage public land in Victoria is by management plan and regulation. I do not believe that single use or restrictive use is a good method in 1986. It is no longer relevant and it is no longer a modern, efficient or appropriate means. The Hon. J. E. Kimer-What do you want me to put in with the zoo, a prison? That would be multiple use and you should know as you have been briefed. The Hon. D. M. EV ANS-I hope the Minister does not become emotional on this issue. I deliberately allowed the Minister to make the comments she did because I believe they should be recorded in H ansard. I have raised genuine concerns and, if a reasonable explanation is given of those concerns, I shall accept that because I am a most reasonable man. However, I do have some concerns as to the limits that will be placed by clause 4, which removes the restriction on the size or zoological parks. It is not unreasonable to request that the Minister comment on this matter because it needs to be clearly spelt out. If she can do that, I shall thank her and I shall have no objection to the clause. Generally the Bill is simple and one with which the National Party has no particular quarrel but it is a little puzzled by clause 4. I prefer to see animals enclosed in a larger, more natural area of land than in a cage. The enclosures should present conditions which are as natural as possible. When I visited England some two or three years ago I called on the Duke of Bedford's estate at Woburn Abbey, which is of considerable tourist fame and which I thought may be a bit ofa con job. To my surprise it was not. I had the opportunity of touring the assoclated wildlife park at Woburn Abbey. The park housed animals from many countries of the world in what would appear to be as near to natural conditions as possible. One was able to drive oneself through the park and gain considerable pleasure from seeing a hippopotamus come into view through the rear window as well as seeing lions and tigers roam nearby. I was able to get out of the car among the monkeys which could be seen in all directions-I found myself quite at home! One could see wildlife of all sorts in the park and it seemed a more appropriate way to display animals to the general public who may gain a greater appreciation of them in a more natural environment. In the part of the country from which I come there resides a considerable number of Australian wildlife. I am not always happy when the kangaroos outnumber the cows I have on my property but generally I am happy to see the occasional wallaby, echidna, bandicoot and wombat, if I am out late enough to see them. There are all sorts of birds in the north-east and even a few wild ducks can be seen on the dam. The Hon. G. P. Connard-What has that got to do with the Bill? Zoological Parks and Gardens Bill 18 March 1986 COUNCIL 29

The Hon. D. M. EV ANS-It has a lot to do with wildlife management and wildlife parks. The Hon. J. E. Kirner-I think you are making this speech because you want your dinner money; you could finish your speech by 6.30 p.m.! The Hon. D. M. EVANS-I have good reasons for discussing these things because I have expressed some concerns about clause 4. I approve of the proposal to display animals in larger areas but I should prefer that Parliament had some control over them. The Government should declare large areas as wildlife sanctuaries which would come under a more restricted management zone than if they were left under the multiple-use management zone. I should not like to see the Bill used as a vehicle to obtain that result. I look forward to the Minister's comments, which I hope will allay my concerns. The Hon. ROBERT LA WSON (Higinbotham Province)-The Opposition has no objection to the Bill and favours the occasional opening of the Zoological Gardens to the public on high days and special holidays but it would not encourage the Government to do it too often because of the cost involved. That would affect not only the Zoological Gardens in Melbourne but also the many wildlife sanctuaries and gardens throughout the State which all cost a considerable amount of money to run. So far as possible, they should pay their own way. Every time those gardens are opened to the public the staff have to be paid, the animals still have to be fed and all running costs continue, whether or not the viSitors pay. I have a copy of the Statutory Rule No. 36 which relates to the opening of the Zoological Gardens. It states that there will be ~~free admission to pensioners is all properties from 15 March to 23 March 1986." They will have to hurry if they want to take advantage of this opportunity. Presumably the free admission will apply only to pensioners and a pensioner is defined as a retired person of the age of 55 years or more. Perhaps the Minister will comment on why the statutory rule applies only to old-age pensioners rather than, say, invalid pensioners who, because they could well be below the age of 55 years, would not be eligible for free admission. I recommend that in future the rule be altered so that the free admission may be available only to persons who produce a card verifying that they are pensioners. The matter can be sorted out at a later stage. The Zoological Gardens have changed enormously over the years. This was brought home to me when I visited a zoo in India. It was a most oppressive visit and reminded me of my impression of the Zoological Gardens in Melbourne when I was a child. It was obvious that the Indians had not caught up with the latest trends in desi$n of zoological gardens. At that zoo I saw beautiful snow leopards that were confined In small barred cages. The bears were enclosed in pits, as was the case with the bears in our Zoological Gardens until recently. I believe their conditions have improved but I have not seen them as yet. I remember well how the dingoes used to be confined in a small cage and one could see them endlessly pacing back and forth and in circles. As a child I found it depressing to visit the Zoological Gardens. Persons of my vintage will recall the elephant walking endlessly in circles carrying children on its back and having to pick peanuts off the top of posts. That has all changed. The Zoological Gardens are not only a great tourist attraction to Victorians but are also a suitable place in which to keep wild animals. No longer is it a terrible trauma for animals to be contained in unsuitable cages. For instance, the lions now have a spacious grassed area and people can view them from an enclosed overhead bridge. I wonder who mows the grass in that pen! Perhaps they turn some sheep loose in the enclosure to keep the grass down! As well as being a place where people can see animals, the Zoological Gardens are also a valuable reference point for people from all over the world who study wild animals. 30 COUNCIL 18 March 1986 Zoological Parks and Gardens Bin

Zoological gardens house animals that are rare and are vanishing in the wild. From time to time the declining animal populations can be renewed from the stock kept in the zoological gardens, and this makes the gardens a valuable resource. I have two copies of the Monash Review, one of which refers to ensuring the future of koalas and which states: Two Monash zoologists are the main beneficiaries of research money guaranteed by recent publicity about the koala. They claim the state of health ofthe koala is in some jeopardy but there is no danger of it becoming extinct at present. Honourable members should be pleased about that. Zoologists and those working at are attempting to preserve the current number of penguins in Victoria and they are interacting with the Zoological Gardens and various zoos and sanctuaries around the State. I know I have strayed a little, but the Opposition has no difficulty with the Bill and will support it. . The motion was agreed to. The Bill was read a second time and committed. The sitting was suspended at 6.31 p.m. until 8.3 p.m. Clause 1 was agreed to. Clause 2 The Hon. J. E. KIRNER (Minister for Conservation, Forests and Lands)-I thank honourable members for their support, but I wish to respond to a couple of matters raised ~y members of the opposition parties. Mr Reid made a valid point about the decision on free days. The proposal to proceed to a Governor in Council decision on free days, outside of the regulations, in order to make a much smoother path later, is complicated. However, it also places that decision with me rather than being shared with the Zoological Board of Victoria. I have already assured the chairperson of the board that I shall do that in consultation. Mr Reid and Mr Evans raised the impact that the Bill will have on funding. One must be careful about how many free days are prOpOsed because the board has to cover that funding. Although the board is now doing a brilliant job in attracting 1 million visitors a year to zoos, and ha~ attracted large corporate sponsorship, free days must not be allowed to impact too much on profits. I assure the Commit~ that I shall take adequate care with the number of free days. The examples so far have involved senior citizens on Victoria's 150th birthday celebrations and on the introduction of WorkCare, which was an important day for workers. The Hon. N. B. Reid-But ofa political nature! The Hon. J. E. KIRNER-Workers consider that to be a highly political issue and they are entitled to celebrate their success. The Bill also provides for proper notice to be given, ifclosure of zoos is necessary. It is unlikely to arise,' but the Government will ensure that proper notice of closure and of free days will be given. Mr Evans raised his concern that clause 4 proposes to change the size of parks. At that stage I interjected that the land allocation process will not be carried out under the Bill but under the Crown Land (Reserves) Act; or it may be through the Governor in Council under the National Parks Act but not under the Zoological Parks and Gardens Act. Zoological Parks and Gardens Bill 18 March 1986 COUNCIL 31

As zoos are expensive investments, it is unlikely that an amendment to the Act will be used for any purpose other than the legitimate establishment of a public zoo. The Hon. B. P. Dunn-What is the big problem with the current words? The Hon. J. E. KIRNER-At present I cannot approve of a zoo above a certain size because there is a limitation on the area. Mr Evans referred to the importance offree range zoological parks. Victoria has a publicly run park administered by the Royal Melbourne Zoological Gardens at Werribee Park, but its area is not even 400 hectares. The Bill will remove the unnecessary limitation on the size of zoos. The only zoo of that size would be a free-range zoo. Mr Lawson asked why only aged and not invalid pensioners should be covered in the waiving of admission charges. Nothing in the Bill determines who will or will not be given concessions; that will be determined by the Government. It just so happens that the expression 44senior citizens' free days" refers to senior citizens but it would be possible to declare a free day for people with disabilities, if that were considered desirable. Those are the major issues raised by Opposition members. I assure Mr Evans that there is no intention to use the Bill to address a change by stealth of land use. As Mr Evans mentioned, land use can be for whatever purpose. Wildlife reserves can be implemented under the Crown Land (Reserves) Act. The Bill refers only to zoos. If I wish to declare a large area as a wildlife reserve, I can do it now either under the Fisheries Act, the Wildlife Act or the Crown Land (Reserves) Act. As I said, this measure refers only to zoos. The Hon. N. B. REID (Bendigo Province)-The Minister has given a good explanation in reply to the points I raised. The issue raised by Mr Evans has inspired my curiosity. That issue relates to the 400-hectare provision. The Minister has given a partial explanation but I ask her to report progress and to make an officer from her department available for consultation because it is of some concern that an area larger than 1200 acres-in the old language-could be made available for a zoological park. I ask the Minister to consider this request because it is an unusual provision to be included in the Bill. The CHAIRMAN (the Hon. G. A. Sgro)-Order! I interrupt proceedings because Mr Reid should be speaking to clause 2. The Minister has answered in general terms. The Hon. N. B. REID-The Minister responded under clause 2 to the general provisions of the Bill. The CHAIRMAN-The Minister has the prerogative to speak in general terms, but the Committee is now considering clause 2. The clause was agreed to, as was clause 3. Clause 4 The Hon. D. M. EVANS (North Eastern Province)-I echo the comments that were made a few minutes ago by Mr Reid about clause 4. More explanation and investigation are needed and I request the Minister to report progress at this stage. I and my colleagues in the Opposition would like to be briefed on the matter to clear up any problems that may exist, and further discussion on clause 4 could resume tomorrow. The Hon. J. E. KIRNER (Minister for Conservation, Forests and Lands)-I am happy to report progress. The matter will need to be stood over until tomorrow because my departmental officer is not available this evening. Progress was reported. 32 COUNCIL 18 March 1986 Lotteries Gaming and Betting Bill

LOTIERIES GAMING AND BETTING (AMENDMENT) BILL This Bill was received from the Assembly and, on the motion of the Hon. J. E. KIRNER (Minister for Conservation, Forests aod Lands), was read a first time. LEGAL AID COMMISSION (AMENDMENT) BILL The Hon. J. H. KENNAN (Attorney-General)-I move: That this Bill be now read a second time. The purpose of this Bill is to introduce several amendments to the Legal Aid Commission Act 1978. This Act established the Legal Aid Commission of Victoria, which has been in formal operation since September 1981. The commission finances the provision oflegal assistance according to stringent financial guidelines for those people unable to afford the cost of a private practitioner. Private lawyers are funded to act on behalf of most Legal Aid Commission clients. Commission employees offer legal services to a minority of applic~nts. No major amendments have been made to the Legal Aid Commission Act 1978. During the past four years a number of problems have arisen. The Bill is designed to overcome those problems by enabling the commission to gain more effective control over the distribution of legal aid funds ensuring that more people can be legally assisted and enhancing the smooth administration of the commission. LUMP SUM FEE PAYMENTS TO PRIVATE PRACTITIONERS Part of the Shorter Trials Committee report deals with the introduction of lump sum fee payments to lawyers. The Government is implementing many ofthe recommendations contained within that report and these amendments form a part of this process. The commission currently pays lump sum fees to lawyers for criminal work in the Magistrates Court. However, the current provision implies that the lump sum fee paid should equate to 80 per cent of the normal fee in the particular case. This defeats the purpose of lump sum fees which is to provide reasonable remuneration, that is, 80 ~r cent of normal fees for an average case of a particular class. A lump sum fee will prOVide less than full remuneration in a case of above average complexity and more than adequate payment in less complex cases. In this way reasonable remuneration will be provided over a number of cases at considerably reduced administrative cost to the commission. The benefits of lump sum fees are convenience and speed of payments. These benefits are only apparent in cases of a similar nature occurring in considerable volume. The lump sum fees in operation at present were negotiated with representatives of the Law Institute of Victoria and a similar process of consultation and negotiation with the relevant professional bodies will precede the introduction of any new lump sum fees. INCLUDING VALUE OF HOMES IN MEANS TEST Legal aid is granted only to applicants who satisfy a means test. At present the value of an applicant's home is not included in that test. In some cases the value of the home may be so great that it is appropriate for it to be taken into account when assessing an application for aid. Consequently, the commission should be able to consider the value of an applicant's home and refuse to grant aid where the home is of great value. STRENGTHENING PROHIBITION AGAINST LAWYERS CHARGING ADDITIONAL FEES The Legal Aid Commission Act provides that lawyers accepting legal aid assignments are not entitled to accept fees other than those provided by the commission. Contrary to the Act, some lawyers require legal aid clients to pay "top-up" fees. Clients can ill afford to do so. The Bill strengthens the current provision by making it an offence for lawyers to demand or accept such fees. Legal Aid Commission (Amendment) Bill 18 March 1986 COUNCIL 33

INTERIM FUNDING PRIOR TO DISTRIBUTION OF SOLICITORS GUARANTEE FUND The two main sources of commission funding from the State are amounts received from the Solicitors Guarantee Fund and the amount provided by the State Government in the Appropriation Act. The amount provided by the State is that amount by which other sources of revenue, including the Solicitors Guarantee Fund, fall short of the total operating expenses of the commission for the financial year. The amount received from the Solicitors Guarantee Fund is not determined until September and is received by the commission in October. Consequently, the commission requires interim funding from 1 July to 30 September. In the past this has been provided by payments under the Supply Act, which are subsequently covered by the amount provided in the Appropriation Act for the year. There is a concern that in future years the amount required to be provided under the Appropriation Act may, by reason of an unexpectedly large distribution from the Solicitors Guarantee Fund, prove to be less than the payments made to the commission under the Supply Act during the first three months of the financial year. There is no provision by which any surplus payments can be refunded to the Consolidated Fund. This situation could be avoided by the Treasurer providing the commission with an advance from the Public Account to be repaid when funds are received from the Solicitors Guarantee Fund. The Bill enables this arrangement to proceed. DELEGA TIONS It is Public Service Board policy to delegate as many functions as possible to Government agencies. The board does not have the power to delegate to the commission. The Bill enables the Public Service Board to delegate to the commission powers to regulate the conditions of employment and remuneration of its staff. This will create a less cumbersome administrative structure within the commission. IMPOSING CHARGES ON APPLICANTS TO SECURE PAYMENT OF CONTRIBUTIONS TOWARDS LEGAL AID Legal aid authorities have traditionally secured the payment of any proportion of the costs which the applicant is assessed as capable of bearing by imposing a charge. EQUITABLE CHARGES The Legal Aid Commission has imposed equitable charges upon property of applicants to ensure that whenever possible some contribution is made towards the cost of their representation. Substantial revenue is raised by the imposition of these charges. The amendment contained in the Bill seeks to put beyond question the commission's power to impose such charges. STATUTORY CHARGES In addition, the Bill creates a power to impose a statutory charge. Under the Legal Aid Act 1969, which preceded the present Act, legal aid authorities were entitled to impose by statute a charge on any property of the applicant recovered or preserved as a result of the assistance given in the proceedings. Experience since 1978 has shown that this power should be reinstated in legislation. Difficulties often arise where an assisted person is requested to execute an equitable charge at the conclusion of a case and the person refuses. Also, either deliberately or inadvertently, solicitors may fail to retain moneys received in trust sufficient to cover costs. The commission then has the choice of writing off a contribution or suing an assisted person. Such proceedings are costly and unpredictable. The commission consequently suffers a loss of revenue which affects the total number of cases in which the commission may grant aid. Session 1986-2 34 COUNCIL 18 March 1986 Transfer ofLand (Share Interests) Bill

The imposition of a statutory charge would overcome such difficulties and place all assisted persons in comparable positions regardless of whether their assets are real or liquid. MISCELLANEOUS AMENDMENTS Other amendments contained in the Bill pick up technical problems in the Act and matters affecting the internal operation of the commission. The amendments will change the smooth administration of the commission by clarifying internal appeal structures and membership of committees, allowing alternate members for Legal Aid Commissioners and enabling a staff representative to be appointed to the commission. The operation of the referral panel containing names of practitioners who wish to act for legal aid clients is addressed. Another recommendation of the Shorter Trials Committee is implemented by giving the commission power to remove from this panel any practitioner who habitually takes too long to defend criminal charges. The Bill makes it an offence for practitioners to fail to disclose matters relevant to a grant of aid. In accordance with Government policy, accounting and auditing provisions are made more specific. A number of other technical matters are also dealt with in the Bill. The Legal Aid Fund must be accessible to those in the community who, because they lack the means, cannot pay the costs of private lawyers. The Bill seeks to preserve this fund for those who are eligible by ensuring that financial and structural problems which have arisen in the course of the operation of the commission are remedied. I commend the Bill to the House. On the motion of the Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN (Western Province), the debate was adjourned. It was ordered that the debate be adjourned until the next day of meeting. TRANSFER OF LAND (SHARE INTERESTS) BILL The Hon. J. H. KENNAN (Attorney-General)-I move: That this Bill be now read a second time. The Bill amends the Transfer of Land Act 1958 to more readily facilitate recent developments in sale of land transactions known commonly as "time-sharing". The Bill will facilitate this type of transaction and others involving "share interests" in a property. These amendments will allow share interest titles to be issued in advance of dealing as presently occurs in the cases of allotments created by physical subdivision of land. The present procedure for share interest dealings in properties is laborious, involves delays and can have unfortunate consequences. The Transfer of Land Act does not provide for individual titles for share interests to be issued at the outset in one block. Thus every time a share interest is disposed of, the parent certificate of title must be endorsed, and a new certificate of title prepared and issued for the share interest. . Hence, the parent, original certificate of title must become available each time a dealing with a share interest is to be registered. Successful promotions of share interests such as time-sharing schemes result in numerous dealings being lodged for registration at virtually the same time. The accumulation of dealings causes delays in the registration system and problems for anyone searching the register. In order to illustrate the scale of the problems which may be experienced, I shall give an example. A recent promotion of a time-sharing scheme at Eildon called for the creation of share interests consisting of one or more of 1300 shares in the land concerned. Transfer ofLand (Share Interests) Bill 18 March 1986 COUNCIL 35

These problems are compounded by the process for the transfer of land. For instance, any caveat lodged by a purchaser of a share interest can make its claim only to an undivided share in the land in the parent certificate of title, and must be endorsed on it. The provisions of the Transfer of Land Act concerning caveats then require that a notice be sent to the registered proprietor of the land in the parent title every time a transfer of interest to a purchaser is lodged. The statutory period of 30 days must then be allowed to run before the caveat lapses as to the interest sought to be transferred and before the transfer can be registered. Honourable members can appreciate the delays and difficulties which may as a consequence of the procedure be encountered by the parties to a transaction and the Titles office. The creation of share interests in a title would allow the parties to a transaction to deal with each other in the terms of a specific certificate of title. The new procedures will be of significant benefit to the Titles Office. In order to encourage potential applicants, no fee is to be charged for an application by a registered proprietor for the issue of the separate share interest certificate of title. The proposed legislation should also be seen as a significant assistance to the promotion of share interest schemes such as time-sharing, sellers, buyers and those responsible for the conveyance of titles alike. It will be readily recognized by the estate agent and developer community as a significant assistance to their proposals by simplifying what can be an unnecessarily tedious procedure. It will assist the community as a whole by providing more ready access to titled leisure and resort accommodation for which a demand already exists. I commend the Bill to the House. The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN (Western Province)-The Opposition is happy to support the Bill, which covers a developing area. I can recall when time-sharing was first proposed. I think it was at Eildon. At that stage it was suggested that time-sharing arrangements were a breach of the Companies Act provisions in Victoria because no prospectus was provided. A system has been developed whereby any person who claims a time-sharing interest has to claim an undivided interest in the whole of the land. If, for example, one has a property at Eildon with 50 rooms and one wants to sell it on a time-sharing basis, any person who wants to deal with the title and register an interest on that title has to seek production of the original title. One can imagine how cumbersome that would be on a large time-sharing development. This proposal will enable a person who is considering a time-sharing scheme to go to the Titles Office and ask for the production of X number of time-sharing certificates of title and he can nominate the number. That person might be able to interest 200 people in the time-sharing of that building, so he could get 200 certificates of title for those time­ sharing interests. This is one of the few cases where the Titles Office or a Government agency is doing something for nothing. No fee is to be charged. The reason is not altruism but to get the Titles Office off the hook as it is difficult to handle a situation where only one parent title is involved. That is a sensible move and the Opposition is happy to support it. The second issue I raise refers to the proposed Division 4A, section 98D (2). I ask the Attorney-General to look at page 2 of the Bill. The Hon. J. H. Kennan-You promised not to ask questions. The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN-I have just seen this one. The very last paragraph, I presume, refers to sub-section (2). Is that how the Attorney-General would read it? The Hon. J. H. Kennan-Yes, I see what you mean. 36 COUNCIL 18 March 1986 Melbourne Sailors ' Home Bill

The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN-It reads (1), (2), (3), (4), (2)-it might be how the printer has printed it and perhaps it should be section (4) sub-section (2). The Hon. J. H. Kennan-It is section (4) sub-section (2). The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN-That provides for the principal Act to be divided. It is a surprising drafting style for a Bill. I presume that, as it is now the practice to start Bills with a summary of all the clauses, what is intended here is to replace the existing provision with that provision. If that is so, the Opposition is happy to support the proposal. The Bill is needed and the Opposition is happy to support it. The Hon. W. R. BAXTER (North Eastern Province)-Likewise, the National Party is pleased to support the proposed legislation. I suppose it could be characterized as the law being brought into line with modern-day practice as new techniques in land subdivision occur, in the same way as strata titles were introduced years ago to cater for own-your­ own units and apartments both in multi-storey buildings and with several units being built on one block of land in the suburbs. That was a logical extension of the transfer of land provisions and the Bill deals with the time-sharing concept in the same way. It is logical and in keeping with the demands of the community. I have personal reservations about the principle and concept of time-sharing because it can lead people into difficulties further down the track, but that has nothing to do with the aspect ofland transfer involved in the exercise of time-sharing-it is more connected with a person's ability to get on with co-owners and those who have the right to use the same part of the building at specific times of the year. Certainly, in terms of the holiday situation, such as the Eildon example, time-sharing is in vogue and it will obviously be used more often in future. One difficulty in the past has been the necessity to resort to the parent title on each occasion when a transaction was processed. ObvIously this measure will facilitate the transfer of time sharing interests. It is appropriate that Parliament should brin~ legislation into line to cover a widespread and much-sought-after process in the communIty. The motion was agreed to. The Bill was read a second time. The Hon. J. H. KENNAN (Attorney-General)-By leave, I move: That this Bill be now read a third time. I shall briefly' address the remarks made by Mr Chamberlain. I agree that the form in which the BIll is printed is, at first blush, Incorrect. The point Mr Chamberlain made about the layout and the intention of the clause is correct and the way he put it is consistent with my understanding of the intention of the Bill. The motion was agreed to, and the Bill was read a third time. MELBOURNE SAILORS' HOME BILL The Hon. C. J. HOGG (Minister for Community Services)-I move: That this Bill be now read a second time. Historically, the Bill is extremely interesting. Its purpose is threefold. The first is to repeal certain Acts relating to the Melbourne Sailors' Home. I shall provide a brief history and the reasons for this before proceeding on to the other purposes. The Melbourne Sailors' Home has a long history dating back to 27 April 1868 when an order by the Governor in Council permanently reserved land which was granted by the Crown to certain trustees to be used as a site for a sailors' home. Subsequent legislation was enacted to enable the trustees to sell and acquire other land as a SIte for a sailors' Melbourne Sailors' Home Bill 18 March 1986 COUNCIL 37 home and invest remaining proceeds of the sale of the land. These were the Melbourne Sailors' Home Act 1901 and the Melbourne Land Exchange Act 1941. More recently, the Melbourne Sailors' Home Act 1964 was introduced to authorize the trustees of certain land upon which was erected the Melbourne Sailors' Home to sell or lease that land to the Melbourne Harbor Trust Commissioners-Port of Melbourne Authority-because the trustees considered that the provision of a home for seamen was no longer practicable or necessary and that there were insufficient funds to maintain the existing land and buildings. The trustees were also authorized and empowered by the Act to apply any trust funds for any purpose most likely to promote the welfare of sailors who operate out of ports in Victoria or who from time to time visit ports in Victoria. The Melbourne Sailors' Home (Power of Trustees) Act 1968, which amended the Melbourne Sailors' Home Act 1964, empowered the trustees of the Melbourne Sailors' Home to pay over all trust funds to the Public Trustee who was authorized to disburse funds as follows: (a) $45000 to the Missions to Seamen; (b) $17 500 to the Stella Maris Club; (c) $17 500 to the Sailors' Welfare No. 1 account; and (d) the balance of trust moneys to Sailors' Welfare No. 2 account. The amending Act of 1968 established a trust committee entitled the Seamans Welfare Trust Committee consisting of three members appointed by the Minister for Community Welfare Services, two members of whom were to be appointed from a panel of three names submitted by the Seamen's Union of Australia. The functions of the committee were to direct the Public Trustee as determined from time to time on the best application of funds from the Sailors' Welfare No. 1 account to promote the welfare of sailors who operate out of or visit ports in Victoria. Also established was the Seamans Welfare Advisory Council consisting of three members appointed by the Minister for Community Welfare Services to advise on the most appropriate means of applying any part of the capital or income in the Sailors' Welfare No. 2 account for promoting the welfare of sailors who operate out of or visit ports in Victoria. The council operated on the basis of making recommendations to the Minister of allocations from the Public Trustee to the two organizations providing services for the welfare of seamen in general, namely, the Missions to Seamen (Victoria) and the Stella Maris Club. The reasons for repealing the relevant Acts are that very few calls were made in recent years on the Sailors Welfare No. 1 and No. 2 accounts or for assistance through the agency of the Seamans Welfare Trust Committee or the Seamans Welfare Advisory Council. In accordance with Government policy of reviewing the value of a range of consultative and advisory mechanisms, the previous Minister for Community Welfare Services considered the utility of the trust committee and the advisory council and determined that it would be more appropriate to provide resources for specific inquiries or services which have a high Government priority than to maintain general committees. With the repeal of the Act~ and the winding up of the trust committee and advisory council, the remaining trust funds held and invested by the Public Trustee will need to be utilized in the best possible manner and to assist in the welfare of sailors. Hence the second purpose of the Bill is to establish a separate trust fund as part of the Public Account to be called the Sailors Welfare Fund into which all moneys standing to the credit of the Sailors Welfare No. 1 account and the Sailors Welfare No. 2 account will be transferred. The funds in those accounts total approximately $129 000. Provision is made in the Bill that moneys standing to the credit of the fund may be invested in any manner as approved by the Treasurer and the interest is to be credited to the fund. 38 COUNCIL 18 March 1986 Melbourne Sailors' Home Bill

The third purpose of the Bill is to authorize the Minister for Community Services to make grants out of the Sailors Welfare Fund to organizations which promote the welfare of sailors or the welfare of persons working in other Victorian maritime industries. I wish to mention at this point that the Bill gives clear discretion to the Minister for Community Services to the payment of grants out of the fund to organizations promoting the welfare of sailors as the first priority. However, in order that the fund be utilized to the fullest extent, the Minister is given discretion to make grants for other related purposes. The Seamen's Union of Australia indicated agreement to this principle. I commend the Bill to the House. The Hon. R. I. KNOWLES (Ballarat Province)-The Opposition does not oppose the Bill. The Minister has given an outline of the history of the Bill and there is no doubt that the Government has clearly established that there is a need to wind up the two bodies and to transfer the funds to a separate trust fund.

The Notice Paper lists a Bill dealing with the State Relief Committee and I wond~r why the Government does not allocate the funds to the State Relief Committee and allow it to distribute them, if a call is made, rather than set up a separate structure within the Department of Management and Budget that will inevitably involve some additional administrative costs. The State Relief Committee is already in existence and has an administrative structure. It would seem a more practical arrangement for the State Relief Committee to deal with any claims for funds rather than set up a new fund within the Department of Management and Budget and allow claims to be determined by the Minister for Community Services. An interesting point is that when I was undertaking research on the Bill no one was able to tell me the members of the committee that had already been established by the previous Act. That is indicative of the demands that have been made on the fund over recent years. I do not say that the purpose for which the Melbourne Sailors' Home was established was in any way wrong, but it tends to reflect the changed circumstances in the community and the fact that sailors arriving at Victorian ports are not in the same dire straits as perhaps they were in earlier times. I am interested to know that the Bill allows the Minister for Community Services to use the accumulated funds for those involved in the Victorian fishing industry. I should be interested in the Minister's explanation on how she proposes those funds are to be applied. Is it simply to provide an avenue for those involved in the Victorian fishing industry to have better access to relief funding or are the funds to be used on some orchestrated campaign to provide relief? Honourable members are only too well aware that Victorian fishermen are currently going through difficult times and there is some concern that they are not treated differently from other States and that, simply because these funds are available, they will have access to relief funding that would not otherwise be available. Although I raise those points of concern, the Opposition does not oppose the proposed legislation. The Hon. W. R. BAXTER (North Eastern Province)-The National Party is not opposed to the proposed legislation. However, I share the concern of Mr Knowles and his reservations about the ultimate destination of the $129 000 involved. I accept, as he does, that the existing two accounts have not been drawn upon very much at all for some years now and there is some difficulty in ascertaining who comprises the committees charged with making the allocations. Nevertheless, the House is entitled to some explanation from the Minister as to what she has in mind for the funds. Honourable members are entitled to have a degree of State ReliefCommittee Bill 18 March 1986 COUNCIL 39 scepticism, bearing in mind the record of the Government in recent years in handling taxpayers' funds to assist the propaganda purposes of various bodies. In this instance it is not taxpayers' funds that will be handed out, but presumably funds that have been accumulated over many years by the personal management of the trustees of the sailors' home and, in later years, by the committees, which have been careful in handling the funds. I am not suggesting this will happen, but in the absence of an assurance to the contrary I can only go on past experience and say that there mi~t be an allocation to the Seamen's Union of Australia to enable it to pay strike pay to Its members on some of the many occasions on which it disrupts the exports of this nation. As Mr Murphy interjects, $129 000 would not go far. It would last only one day if used for that purpose, but that is what it may be used for, although I do not want that to transpire. The money may be used to assist sailors on Liberian-registered vessels who-if one can believe the allegations of members of the Seamen's Union of Australia-are, in some respects, engaged in sweated labour. I do not enter into that argument because I am not in a position to know the facts, but I do not want the $129 000 to be used for that purpose on the say-so of the union, bearing in mind the requirement that the union places upon overseas shipowners to repair their ships. The Hon. G. A. Sgro-That is for jobs! The Hon. W. R. BAXTER-Mr Sgro is an honest man. The reason for the requirement to repair ships is not for safety, but to create jobs for union members! We now know that is what the union is doing. There is no safety aspect involved. I ask the Minister to give an assurance that the $129 000 will be used for the purposes for which it was originally intended and will not be used as a propaganda exercise to fight shipowners, the Australian Conciliation and Arbitration Commission or the exporters of goods from Australia. The motion was agreed to. The Bill was read a second time. The Hon. C. J. HOGG (Minister for Community Services)-By leave, I move: That this Bill be now read a third time. I thank Mr Knowles and Mr Baxter for their comments. I give Mr Baxter the assurance that he seeks, namely, that the $129 000 to which honourable members have been referring will not be used for the purposes to which he alluded-perhaps only a touch, although I say that mischieviously and provocatively! I shall be happy to make a Ministerial statement later in the sessional period on the purposes for which the money will be used. I thought that if the funds were not exhausted by the demands of former or current members of the Seamen's Union of Australia or people involved in the maritime industry, it would be important to consider people displaced by changes in the fishing industry and that applications from that area should be examined. However, it is not yet known what the demand will be. I give Mr Baxter the assurance that he sought and I thank both honourable members for their support of the Bill. The motion was agreed to, and the Bill was read a third time. STATE RELIEF COMMITTEE BILL For the Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs), the Hon. D. R. White (Minister for Health)-I move: That this Bill be now read a second time. 40 COUNCIL 18 March 1986 State ReliefCommittee Bill

This Bill has two objectives. Firstly, as a result of a request by the Chairman of the State Relief Committee, it changes the name of the committee to the Victorian Relief Committee. This has been done as the chairman believes this will more clearly establish the identity of the committee. Secondly, it removes a restriction on the way in which the committee may provide relief. When the committee was established in the 1930s it was required to work through benevolent societies in "towns or boroughs" serviced by such societies. However, over recent years the benevolent society movement has lost some of its importance as the area of provision of emergency relief has changed. As a consequence, in some situations the committee has been in technical breach of its Act by distributing direct to "persons in distress" in areas where a benevolent society has been registered. This Bill removes this restriction on the procedure by which the committee offers relief. It recognizes what is the de facto and efficient practice. This Bill is drafted so that it validates any previous distributions of assistance by the committee in breach of the section. It will have no effect on the practical operation of the committee, which will continue to perform its worth-while and valuable function in an efficient and common-sense manner. I commend the Bill to honourable members. The HOD. R. I. KNOWLES (Ballarat Province)-The Opposition does not oppose the Bill. The Minister has outlined the two principal purposes that the Bill will achieve, if passed. One objective is to rename the organization and the other objective is to legalize a practice that the committee has adopted for many years. The proposed legislation provides an opportunity of acknowledgin~ the sterling work that the State Relief Committee, now to be known as the Victorian RehefCommittee, undertakes. One of the major contributing factors of that work has been the leadership Dame Phyllis Frost has prOVIded over many years. The Opposition compliments Dame Phyllis on the leadership she has provided for that committee and acknowledges the worth-while work the committee has undertaken. One of the strengths of the committee is that all funds that are donated to the committee are actually used in the provision of relief. That is possible, in part, by the Government making an annual grant to cover administration costs. It is an important principle for those who wish to donate to charitable organizations; that the funds they are donating are used for the purposes for which an appeal has been made. The OpPOsItion supports the Bill and acknowledges the fine work the committee is undertaking and has undertaken over many long years. The HOD. W. R. BAXTER (North Eastern Province)-The National Party supports the Bill. I record the National Party's appreciation of the outstanding work of the State Relief Committee under the chairmanship of Dame Phyllis Frost over a number of years. The success of the committee has been due largely to the energy of Dame Phyllis Frost. She has been the driving force behind the committee and has had the ear of successive Premiers in recent years in order to maintain the annual grant for the cost of administration. She has been the one with the enthusiasm, and has sought private donations to assist the work of the committee. The significant benefit of the work of the committee to Victoria is that it steps in and assists individuals and families who suffer tragedy through fire or some other loss of property, or perhaps who suffer in isolation. When there is a major tragedy in Victoria, such as the Ash Wednesday bush fires, there is an overwhelming public reaction to assist the people affected by that catastrophe and there are public appeals, Government assistance and an overwhelming outpouring of assistance by the community to the people who have suffered from the tragedy. However, often in the case of an isolated tragedy, such as the burning down of a single family home, through whatever reason, whether it be by an electrical fault, arson or whatever, the loss of that home is as big a tragedy to that particular family as is a major disaster to the whole community where 100 homes may have been destroyed; for instance, as occurred with the Extractive Industries (Amendment) Bill 18 March 1986 COUNCIL 41

Ash Wednesday bush fires. These victims often are left alone with no public response to assist them. They are often left to get over their disaster in the best way they can. The State Relief Committee has been instrumental in those cases, as well as in the larger catastrophes, in providing assistance without question or delay in the form of furniture, clothing and whatever else is required to get that individual or family back on their feet. That has been the great benefit of the State Relief Committee. It has been able to ensure that, where individual catastrophes have occurred, some form of alleviation has been provided for those victims. The committee should be commended for that and long may it continue to offer that form of assistance. The motion was agreed to. The Bill was read a second time, and passed through its remaining stages.

EXTRACTIVE INDUSTRIES (AMENDMENT) BILL The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Health)-I move: That this Bill be now read a second time. When the Extractive Industries (Amendment) Bill 1984 was debated, the necessity for further amendments was noted. As the then Minister for Minerals and Energy, I assured honourable members that those amendments, designed to provide some redirection of the Act, would not be rushed to ensure that the changes were appropriate and that consultation would be undertaken. Since the passage of the 1984 Bill, intensive work has been undertaken within the Department of Industry, Technology and Resources to produce the amendments which will allow an effective and efficient approach to extractive industry. The Bill I now put before the House deals with the alteration of tenure for extractive industry leases and licences, the inclusion of further reviewable conditions in those leases and licences and the requirement of notification of extractive industry operations proposed on Crown land or municipal land. The initial granting of licences and leases and their renewal is a matter of importance to the industry. The Bill provides for an initial term of up to 30 years for all new leases and licences with an indefinite number of ten year renewals to provide increased security for the industry's operators and the necessary confidence for long-term capital investment. Any licence or lease which was held immediately prior to the commencement of this Bill and is to be renewed for the first time after that commencement will be eligible to be reviewed for a term of up to 30 years with an indefinite number often year renewals. The basis of the renewal for a maximum of 30 years will be at the discretion of the Minister who shall take into account evidence that a proved resource of raw material exists, evidence of large capital investment by the prospective licensee/lessee in such areas as plant, building installations and so on, evidence of financial, technical and market capability and necessary planning or zoning approvals for the period required. The effect on the community and the environment is of the utmost importance and will be safeguarded by the inclusion of covenants and conditions for the granting of a lease or licence. The Minister will impose such covenants and conditions with respect to the measures to be taken to minimize the adverse effects on the environment and neighbouring community. The covenants and conditions will be reviewed at least once in every ten years and shall take into account road traffic, dust, noise, vibration and other effects on the aesthetic value of the area. Subsequent to that review there may be added further conditions and covenants or those already existing may be amended or varied. 42 COUNCIL 18 March 1986 Education (Miscellaneous Matters) Bill

The Land Conservation Council has stated that a substantial number of unwise excavations have been made on public land, and in many instances, particularly with older excavation sites, the rehabilitation of excavated land is slow. To this end the Bill introduces the necessity for municipal councils and agencies to notify the Department of Industry, Technology and Resources when any extraction or removal of stone is to be undertaken. The notification shall include the location, quarrying method and production of the proposed operation. The department will then be in a position to monitor the quarrying and rehabilitation of the area. It is not considered necessary to impose the full requirements of the Extractive Industries Act on municipal councils and agencies while they are removing stone for use in their own work as this may introduce delays and increase costs of road construction and maintenance activities. The Bill, however, does reinforce the position that if any municipal council or agency extracts material from a quarry for commercial purposes they will be subject to the same regulations as private companies. This will fully involve the department m licensing, site operation, safety and reclatnation. I commend the Bill to the House. On the motion of the Hon. H. R. Ward, for the Hon. ROSEMARY VARTY (Nunawading Province), the debate was adjourned. It was ordered that the debate be adjourned until the next day of meeting. EDUCATION (MISCELLANEOUS MATTERS) BILL For the Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs), the Hon. J. H. Kennan (Attomey-General)-I move: That this Bill be now read a second time. The purpose of this Bill is to amend both the Education Act 1958 and the Post-Secondary Education Act 1978. The majority of the proposed amendments are ofa machinery nature and will provide the Education Department and the office of the Technical and Further Education Board with the ability to perform the related administrative functions more efficiently. The formation of committees of management is consistent with the Government's policy of devolution of responsibility and the use of educational facilities by the community. PART I-AMENDMENTS TO THE EDUCATION ACT 1958 The Education Service Act 1981 provided that, among others, teachers aides, teacher assistants and rural school aides were employed by the Education Department. With the commencement of section 3 of the Teaching Service Act 1981 on 28 February 1984, the staff of the Education Department was divided into Teaching Service and Public Service and teacher assistants and rural school aides came under the control of the Public Service Board. It is considered that teacher aides, teacher assistants and rural school aides form one occupational group within the Ministry which should be employed under the Education Act to ensure that common conditions of employment will be enjoyed by all employees in the group. School councils have the ability to employ non-teaching staff to assist in the work of a council or a school. This ability has been extended to provide to a group of school councils the power to employ one person whose particular skills can be used by the councils or schools in the group. School councils have entered into common agreement with outside bodies to set up committees of management for certain premises at a school not only to allow the use of the premises but to maintain and on some occasions repair the premises as well. Such an agreement is usually the result of the outside body supplying certain sums of money for the repair, extension or construction of the building. It is proposed to give school councils Education (Miscellaneous Matters) Bill 18 March 1986 COUNCIL 43 the legislative power to devolve their own powers in this respect to joint management committees under these agreements. In further considering the role of school councils and their ability to delegate their powers, school councils have formed sub-committees on the basis of clauses 21 and 22 of regulation L 777 (53) of the Education Department Regulations 1962. It is now recognized that these clauses lack validity and, to establish certainty, the Bill provides for validation of these regulations. A former Public Accounts and Expenditure Review Committee, in commenting on an Auditor-General's report, recommended that, while the Auditor-General should remain responsible for the standard of audits of Government school accounts, the Education Department should assume the responsibility for ensuring that the annual audits are carried out. The amendment provides for this transfer of responsibility. The Bill also contains an amendment to the Local Government Act 1958 to complement legislation providing for the formation of committees of management. PART II-AMENDMENTS TO THE POST-SECONDARY EDUCATION ACT 1978 Certain parts of this Act govern the operations of the technical and further education system in Victoria. The current structures for the provision of technical and further education in Victoria were created in 1983 and the TAFE Teaching Service commenced in March 1984. The system, in its short life, has operated most efficiently, but in the course of the past eighteen months certain anomalies and deficient procedures have become apparent. Clauses 12 to 34 address these problems, which are of a miscellaneous nature, and the most important are as follows: Until recently the Education Department has retained the responsibility for conducting technical and further education examinations. The Bill provides that the Technical and Further Education Board assumes this responsibility by empowering it to arrange for or conduct evaluations, assessments or examinations of the ability and achievements of students and to distribute information about the results of these functions. The Technical and Further Education Teaching Service Appeals Board and registration board established under the Act to service the Technical and Further Education Teaching Service have operated most efficiently within the constraints of existing legislation. One problem encountered by these boards has been the inability to appoint a deputy in the absence of a member of the board) resulting in delays in the board's deliberations. The provision of deputies to members 01 the registration board, appeals board and the discipline appeals board-the last of which is not as yet operational-will avoid such delays in the future. Procedures have been adopted to permit the Technical and Further Education Appeals Board to report instances where provisional promotions or transfers have not been made in accordance with the Act. Teaching staff selection is conducted in colleges but is subject to an appeal procedure, as is the case in other services in the public sector. A new power in the appeals board to report to the Chairman of the TechnIcal and Further Education Board when procedural irregularities in selection have occurred will be provided. This procedure will ensure consistency and propriety in all appointments made in the Technical and Further Education Teaching Service. In relation to the Technical and Further Education Accreditation Board, the amendments will create a new relationship between it and the Technical and Further Education Board, giving the accreditation board more power over Statewide courses. It will specify the terms of office of its members and provide for it to make an annual report to the Mimster. A definition of a Statewide course has been provided and the conditions of authority to conduct such a course have been stated. This will clarify some doubts that may exist under the present legislation. 44 COUNCIL 18 March 1986 Adjournment

The power of the Chairman of the Technical and Further Education Board concerning the capacity of officers has been amended. This amendment mirrors the amendments made to an identical clause in the Teaching Service Act 1981, thus providing identical provisions to be used to inquire into the fitness and capacity of an officer to discharge the duties of his office in both the Teaching Service and the Technical and Further Education Teaching Service. Other amendments relating to the personnel and staffing functions of the Technical and Further Education Board include: (a) the rights of certain persons be saved; (b) provision for flexibility in the transfer of positions from the Teachin~ Service to the Technical and Further Education Teaching Service in the case of amalgamatIOn or takeover of a school or college or part of the operations of a school or college; (c) the creation of exempt positions in colleges, in accordance with Ministerial or arbitral determinations. These amendments will provide greater flexibility to the board and enable it to perform its personal function more efficiently. As a result of the special nature of officers in the Technical and Further Education Teaching Service being attached to a specific colle~e, the rationalization of positions from college to college was not adequately provided for In the current legislation. Consequently, validation is needed for the creation or abolition of certain offices which have been created or abolished in the rationalization of programs between colleges. Finally, because of the need for the Technical and Further Education Teaching Service to have a flexible system of communicating information to colleges and to members of the Technical and Further Education Teaching Service, the TAFE Gazette has replaced the Education Gazette and the Public Service Notices as the "newspaper" for the purposes of this Act and provides that matters published in either of those publications prior to this amendment shall be deemed to have the same force and effect. Subsequent amendments have been made to the Teaching Service Act 1981 to effect this change in the publication of Ministerial orders made in respect to the Technical and Further Education Teaching Service. I commend the Bill to the House. On the motion of the Hon. H. R. Ward, for the Hon. HADDON STOREY (East Yarra Province), the debate was adjourned. It was ordered that the debate be adjourned until the next day of meeting. ADJOURNMENT V/Line freight service-Appeal costs-Transport costs in egg industry-Plumbing apprentices-Land management-Aradale Hospital-Bendigo College of TAFE-Fare concessions for war veterans-Removal of West Gate Bridge toll-Identification of mountain ash tree-Autistic children's centres-Spot purchaseprovam-Availability of apprenticeships-Distribution of levy on mineral water-AdmlDistration of food regulations-Glen Waverley District Centre The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Health)-I move: That the House do now adjourn. The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN (Western Province)-In the matter I direct to the Attorney-General, who is the representative in this place of the Minister for Transport, I express concern at the implications of current industrial strife among Melbourne shunters on a business in Portland, a company called G. & H. Partos Pty Ltd, which makes very good picture frames that are obtainable in most Melbourne stores. The company employs between 50 and 60 people. By consigning goods to the Victorian railways it is losing any sense of reliability on Jhe delivery of these goods. For instance, on 26 February the company consigned to particular customers 50 cartons of mOUldings which were worth Adjournment 18 March 1986 COUNCIL 45 approximately $10000, and on 11 March, two weeks later, the goods had not been delivered. Consequently, the company has to decide whether to continue to use the unreliable rail freight service or to buy its own truck to transport the goods from Portland to Melbourne. The problem is getting an answer from the Government. For the certainty of its trade, the company needs to know one way or the other. On 24 February the company asked the Minister for Transport whether he could guarantee a smooth service through the Melbourne goods yard but, three weeks later, there has been no answer from the Minister. If the Victorian railways are to have any chance of staying in business they must offer reliability. This company which relies on sending out its goods through V/Line, now finds that it cannot guarantee delivery because of continuing industrial disruption in the Melbourne goods yard. Consequently, it faces the alternative that BHP faced recently on steel, of transporting its own goods. Will the Attorney-General appreciate the seriousness of the issue for this small but important industry and take up the matter with the Minister for Transport to resolve this continuing problem? The Hon. J. V. C. GUEST (Monash Province)-I refer a matter to the Attorney-General in his capacity as both Attorney-General and Minister for Planning and EnVIronment. The Attorney-General has been made aware of the result of the appeal by way of order to review in the Supreme Court where a decision was given last Thursday on the planning case of the maternity hospital site in Gordon Street, Toorak. The Hon. J. H. Kennan-I am not aware of it. The Hon. H. R. Ward-Another inefficient Minister! The Hon. J. V. C. GUEST-The Premier and the Minister received telexes from the aggrieved parties. If the Attorney-General has forgotten about it, I shall tell him about it. There is a hospital on the narrow Gordon Street, Toorak, that has existed for many years, but it was not a maternity hospital because of some quite serious defects relating to the administration of hospital registrations, to which the Minister for Health may wish to address himself at some time. The hospital registration was lost, and, as a result, planning permits had to be obtained for the maternity hospital which was subsequently proposed. The Prahran City Council permitted the use-- The Hon. J. H. Kennan-I do not understand what you are saying. The Hon. J. V. C. GUEST-The objectors, the local residents, who are naturally concerned about the amenity of Gordon Street, took the appeal to the Planning Appeals Board. As the Attorney-General will be aware, despite his apparent lack of expertise in the area of planning, the Planning Appeals Board is meant to be a people's tribunal where a layman can go without legal representation and without fear of a large cost being imposed on him. . In this case, the Planning Appeals Board went wrong. This was not the result of a submission by some highly paid counsel for the objectors. Some of them appeared for themselves. They did not take legal points, but the Planning Appeals Board, for which the Minister for Planning and Environment is responsible, went wrong. As a result, the developer of the hospital took an appeal against the legal error by the Planning Appeals Board to the Supreme Court, and last Thursday he won. Ifthe Attorney­ General would cease interjecting and listen he would hear that the simple fact is that the developer of the hospital site won his appeal to the Supreme Court last Thursday on a point of law because the Planning Appeals Board made an error for which the resident objectors were not responsible. Those residents did not contest the appeal and were not represented at it, yet costs of possibly $13 000 to $15 000 were ordered against them. 46 COUNCIL 18 March 1986 Adjournment

The PRESIDENT-Order! The Attorney-General will refrain from making comments. He will have ample time to comment on the honourable member's remarks at the appropriate time. The Hon. J. V. C. GUEST-I will tell you what it has taken a long time for the Attorney­ General to wake up to: he has had a report for eighteen months from distinguished lawyers in this State stating that the appeal costs legislation ought to be liberalized; that it is quite unsatisfactory that in civil cases, unlike criminal cases, the limit of appeal costs to be reimbursed is $4000. That is quite ludicrous when errors of the courts-for which the Attorney-General is the responsible Minister-can cost people hundreds of thousands of dollars. In this case, the disproportion is bad enough. I ask what the Minister proposes to do about unfortunate objectors such as the residents in this case, and what he proposes to do about the report that he has neglected for eighteen months. The Hon. B. P. DUNN (North Western Province)-I raise with the Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs a matter concerning egg producers in country Victoria; in particular, the Bendigo region is the area that I want to put under major scrutiny in regard to a policy under which the Victorian Egg Marketing Board intends to phase out what is called dockage-a subsidy on the transport cost of bringing eggs from country producers to city areas. Under the Marketing of Primary Products Act, all eggs produced in Victoria are vested in the board. The cost of bringing those eggs from outlying country areas or from cities such as Bendigo is shared across the total industry, the actual amount being approximately 1· 3 cents a dozen. It was the intention of the board over the next three years to phase out that subsidy. The period has now been extended to four years. The intention is to make egg producers in the country pay the full cost of transporting their eggs to the board in Melbourne. I understand that that will cost the producers in the Bendigo area an additional 2·62 cents a dozen in 1986, rising to almost 3 cents a dozen, due to the inflationary spiral, by 1 July 1989 when the subsidy is finally abolished. That is significant to producers in the Bendigo area and across the State. It is estimated that the cost to some producers will be up to $10 000 a year extra, and it is a major disadvantage to country producers. The National Party sees it as decentralization in reverse. The Government should be assisting in the development of primary industries in the country and, in particular, in the development of the egg industry which lends itself to decentralized development. The transport subsidy should be continued for these producers. I raised this matter with the Minister, as did a number of producers, especially those in the Bendigo area who are deeply concerned at the board's decision. It was announced by the board as a fait accompli on a visit to Bendigo. Producers there were told that, over a three-year period, those subsidies would be phased out, and they were alarmed by that announcement. I wrote to the Minister asking him to visit the area and talk to producers there, but he said he would prefer to take up the matter directly with the Victorian Egg Marketing Board, and he did so. I have a copy of that letter in which he said, inter alia: I believe that in its deliberations the Board should try to take account of these objectives ... He is talking there about the country industry- ... and have regard to the special circumstances of the development of the egg industry in the Bendigo area. I thought that was great andthat the Minister was going in to bat for us and would really do something. The Hon. E. H. Walker-As he usually does! Adjournment 18 March 1986 COUNCIL 47

The Hon. B. P. DUNN-I give you credit for trying, Mr Minister, and that is encouraging. However, we now believe the only success we have had is that the period for phasing out the transport subsidy has been extended from three years to four, but that will not help the producers in country Victoria very much. I understand that the removal of this dockage will start in the Mildura district on 1 July this year. I ask the Minister to go further than he has gone. I believe he should go to Bendigo and talk with the producers to discover what will be the impact on the industry there. It could mean the eventual closure of the egg grading floor in Bendigo if producers in that area become non-viable and have to leave the industry. The matter has implications beyond the producers: it has implications for emplovment and industry in Bendigo. The Minister should visit the area and talk to producers, and he should ask the board not to make any further decisions until that has occurred. I ask the Minister to comment and to advise whether he is prepared to do that. The Hon. G. R. eRA WFORD (Jika Jika Province)-I raise with the Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs, as the representative in this House of the Minister for Education, a matter that was highlighted by a statement in the Sun newspaper last week alleging that there is a secret deal between the Victorian Government and the Plumbers and Gasfitters Employees Union. The statement is contained in an Australian Associated Press telex and it is attributed to the Honourable Haddon Storey. The statement alleges that a secret deal has been done. The Hon. A. J. Hunt-Well, there was, wasn't there? The Hon. G. R. eRA WFORD-It alleges that a secret deal was done to alter the priorities, so far as T AFE is concerned, with respect to some work at the Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology. The matter that concerns me is the continuing situation of sufficient resources and accommodation being available to enable first year apprentices to attend a T AFE college to undertake their normal trade course. The Hon. Haddon Storey-Why did it take six months for the Minister to agree to lift the bans? The Hon. G. R. eRA WFORD-I do not know where Mr Storey has been ifhe considers this situation to be secret. The Plumbers and Gasfitters Employees Union has been concerned about facilities being available for the instruction of apprentices undertaking trade courses. I shall go back to 1979 when, at the behest of T AFE, a new syllabus was adopted that requ~red new facilities to be introduced in technical colleges. That was agreed to by the industry, the Industrial Training Commission and other interested parties, and in 1980 this new trade course was commenced with a pilot course in four technical colleges. There was, in fact, a workshop in which interested authorities such as the Melbourne and Metropolitan Board of Works, sewerage authorities, the Gas and Fuel Corporation and other interested bodies participated, and the course was endorsed. However, it concerned the industry that finance was not available at that time to enable these courses to operate and a scandalous situation developed whereby approximately 80 apprentices who were half way through their courses did not have available to them the facilities to enable them to complete their courses. At that time, a 38-page submission was made to the then Premier, Mr Hamer as he then was. The PRESIDENT-Order! The matter raised by the honourable member on the motion for the adjournment of the sitting has turned into a set speech, which is not really the purpose of the debate on the motion for the adjournment of the House. He made his point in regard to the history of the situation and I ask him now to direct his main area of concern to the Minister's attention. 48 COUNCIL 18 March 1986 Adjournment

The Hon. G. R. eRA WFORD-I was directing my remarks to the Minister's attention because he was not the Minister in those days. The fact is that since 1980 there has been a constant problem concerning the availability of finance for technical school accommodation. The Hon. Haddon Storey-So they fixed that by putting bans on all educational projects. The Hon. G. R. eRA WFORD-That is right, and that was done some time in 1981. In fact, a situation was reached where Mr Brian Dixon, the then Victorian Minister for Employment and Training, made available $1 million-$600 000 to Swinburne College and $400 000 to- The PRESIDENT-Order! I have already asked the honourable member to come to the point. I suggest that he ignore the comments made by the Opposition and finalize his speech now. The Hon. G. R. eRA WFORD-I apologize if I appear to have not adhered to the point but what I was seeking to come to was that last year it came to our attention that after July some 80 lads had been apprenticed in 1985 and yet there were no school facilities available for them to undertake their first-year trade course. I am sure that you, Mr President, as a former plumber, would understand what this would mean to the lads. It ~s a scandalous situation. There is no secret about the situation and this is the point I amttying to make although, quite frankly, the union had some difficulty assessing that position because it did not have the information available to it. By the end of 1985, the Government placed 80 lads in their first year of training in technical colleges. I wish to draw to the Minister's attention these misleading statements and request that the Minister monitor the situation to ensure that any lads who were apprenticed in the final stages of 1985 and have been apprenticed in 1986 are being placed in T AFE colleges to undertake their first-year course. I request that the Minister monitor that situation, and if that information is not available, I should like to know why. The Hon. D. M. EVANS (North Eastern Province)-I refer the Minister for Conservation, Forests and Lands to a press release that she issued on 14 March 1986, a copy of which was forwarded to me by courtesy of her office, and I thank her for that. The press release is headed 44Planning of the Alpine Area to Proceed". The Minister makes the comment in paragraph 2 of the release that, H Although creation of the Alpine National Park still rests with Parliament, it is essential the current area of public land be properly planned and managed". It is clear from the press release that the creation of alpine national parks is not necessary for the proper planning and management of the alpine areas of Victoria. The planning team is to be based at Bright and the same process is to be operated for the development of the Grampians National Park management plan. Planning will take up to three years to complete and the issues for consideration include nature conservation, recreation, tourism, water supply and history. Cattle grazing will continue in designated locations together with limited logging operations in areas approved by the Government, which follows consideration of Land Conservation Council's recommendations. The Minister makes the following comment: '4The park will be a wonderful asset to local communities, particularly in regard to the jobs it generates and the tourism dollars it generates" . The point I wish to make is that it is clear from the press statement that the Minister for Conservation, Forests and Lands accepts that the National Parks (Alpine National Park) Bill currently before the House may not proceed. Adjournment 18 March 1986 COUNCIL 49

It is clear by inference that the document raises the possibility that the management plan can proceed and be implemented and be effective wIthout the passage oflegislation. It appears to me-and I question the Minister whether indeed this is so-that she is now coming around to the 1986 modern view proposed by the National Party that the best method of ensuring that Crown land is public land in Victoria is through multi-use management with properly developed management plans. Therefore, I ask the Minister whether, if she has indeed come to that view, the article that expressed her views on 14 March-to which I have referred-in fact is a correct explanation of the way in which she proposes to continue and, indeed, whether it embodies, as I have suggested, the view that multi-use management under proper management plans is a more effective, efficient and flexible way of land management tuned to the 1986 and beyond era, than is a set piece legislation with restricted land-use management over certain areas. The Hon. R. I. KNOWLES (Ballarat Province)-I raise a matter with the Minister for Health relating to the appalling situation of medical and para-medical staff at Aradale Hospital in Ararat. For an institution of some 100 residents, there is no medical superintendent and only one psychiatrist. Additionally, there is only one pharmacist servicing that institution. Recently, the staff at McGregor House, a community-based organization which runs a magnificent vocational service for the intellectually disabled, planned a two-day trip to Warrnambool for seven or eight residents of Aradale. They are long-term residents with limited contact with the outside community and, at the last moment, an appalling situation developed whereby the pharmacist at Aradale, simply because of the pressure of duties, indicated that he was not able to provide prescriptions for medication for those residents who were to undertake the trip. As a result, that excursion was cancelled. This is an example of what is occurring not only at Aradale but also at a number of other institutions run by the State where there simply is not sufficient professional staff to allow them to operate on any sort of reasonable basis, let alone achieve some of the objectives that this Government claims its policies are designed to achieve for both the mentally ill and the intellectually disabled. I ask the Minister to undertake an urgent examination of the staffing crisis at Aradale and I seek an assurance from him that the Government will overcome those difficulties, which will allow the residents at that institution to lead a life much more in line with today's community aspirations for those who are not only intellectually disabled but also those who are mentally ill. The Hon. K. I. M. WRIGHT (North Western Province)-I raise a matter for the attention of the Leader of the House, who represents the Minister for Education in this place. It is similar to the matter raised by Mr Crawford and it relates to a building inspectors' course at the Bendigo College of T AFE. The courses were advertised about a month ago, and ten people enrolled for the course. Some ten applicants also enrolled for another course, which came to the same conclusion. On the evening that the building inspectors' course was to commence, the prospective students were informed that, because of a lack of funds, the college was unable to provide instruction in that course. This was an unfortunate event for most of the people involved, but, particularly for one constituent who had been involved in an accident some time earlier. He could have easily qualified to receive some type of pension from the Commonwealth Social Security Department but, instead of applying for such a pension, he is endeavouring to better himself; he attempted to do that by enrolling for that particular course. As I said, the course was withdrawn at the last moment. It seems to me that for an organization spending millions of dollars on such courses, funds should be made available to pay for the cost of salaries of the instructors in the courses. The ten people involved have been informed that they can undertake the course at Ballarat, but it seems rather silly 50 COUNCIL 18 March 1986 Adjournment that they must go all the way to Ballarat to undertake a course which is not available in a large provincial centre such as Bendigo. I raised the matter with Mrs Elwyn Rogers, who is the chairperson of the regional TAFE board. She expressed much concern and sympathy about the matter, and I understand that the board discussed it at the meeting which was to take place almost at the same time. The regional board has made a recommendation to the Technical and Further Education Board in Melbourne that that money should be made available. I ask that the Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs use his good offices to bring this matter to the attention of the Minister for Education, to whom I wrote some weeks ago. I know that the Minister is busy, but this important matter has not, as yet, received attention in that quarter. The Hon. M. J. SANDON (Chelsea Province)-I raise a matter for the attention of the Attorney-General, who represents the Minister for Transport in this House. Last year V /Line adopted a proper policy of providing reduced fares for war veterans to travel to the Anzac Day march. Unfortunately, that policy was not widely understood by the staff of V/Line, and I ask the Minister to ensure that that policy is repeated and that it be enunciated more widely to provide that right for war veterans. No one knows more about the horrors of war nor the value of peace than our war veterans. This is the International Year of Peace and I should like to see, therefore, a situation where the Government is prepared to encourage a war veterans' march this year to celebrate peace. The Hon. REG MACEY (Monash Province)-The matter I raise for the attention of the Minister for Planning and Environment relates to a growing concern among people in the province that I represent-and, indeed, perhaps even all those who live in the southern suburbs-:-about the consequences of a decision taken by the present Government, which showed a lamentable lack of real planning considerations in terms of the consequences that have been inflicted upon those who live south of the Yarra River. I refer the Minister to the removal of the West Gate Bridge toll. It is not enough that the residents of the southern suburbs and of the inner suburbs have already faced the prospect of losing a hospital, the removal of which should never have been considered-that is, Prince Henry's Hospital. That is a proposal that is becoming more and more discredited every day, yet the Government has not yet abandoned it. It appears that the same obsession about and the irrational consideration of the alleged needs of the western suburbs which led to the decision to remove Prince Henry's Hospital to Sunshine have also led to the removal of the West Gate Bridge toll. It was an irrational decision to remove the toll on the basis that there was a lack of any real planning consideration as to the consequences. The decision was announced by the Government, although the former Minister for Planning and Environment who was unhappy about it but who, it seems, did not have an influence in Cabinet, was unable to retain the toll. A study that was carried out by the then Country Roads Board in 1977 indicated quite decisively and clearly that the removal of the toll would have a dramatic effect on the bayside beaches of Melbourne, and that has now occurred. I should like to know what moved the Government to make that decision, and I ask the present Minister for an assurance that he will show more regard for proper planning considerations; that he will consider those who live on his side of the Yarra River, and not only those who live on his side of the river and where so many of his fellow members of Cabinet live. Adjournment 18 March 1986 COUNCIL 51

1 should like to quote from a publication entitled "Roads, Victoria, Jan/Feb 1986", which reflects the Government's policy. Under the heading, "Discrimination ended", it states: The removal of tolls means that motorists and transport-

The PRESIDENT~Order! Mr Macey is turning his contribution to the debate on the motion for the adjournment of the sitting into a set speech. 1 remind him of the rules relating to speeches on the adjournment motion and suggest that he come to the point. The Hon. REG MACEY - I. am seeking an assurance from the Minister for Planning and Environment that th~s discrimination against people on the south side of the river will end. The publication states: The removal oftolls means that motorists and transport operators in the western suburbs, or travelling from Geelong or Ballarat, are no longer discriminated against. Announcing the move on 15 November- The PRESIDENT-Order! 1 have already warned the honourable member. 1 ask him to make the point, because if he continues along the lines he has been proceeding, 1 shall have to ask him to desist. The Hon. REG MACEY-I ask specifically whether the Minister Will assure the House that he will seek to have far more influence in persuading his fellow members of Cabinet against making such irrational decisions in relation to planning matters as those that were allowed to be made by Cabinet against-one would hope-the best wishes and desires of the former Minister. If the former Minister really supported them, he was a disaster as a Minister. The Hon. B. A. MURPHY (Gippsland Province)-The matter of importance that I raise with the Minister for Conservation, Forests and Lands relates to an identification of a very large mountain ash tree in the forest area at Noojee, near Powelltown, by a constItuent of the Gippsland Province,Mr Werner Marshalek, froIp Newborough. The constituent is a geologist by hobby and some twelve years ago, he identified a very large tree some 100 kilometres from the General Post Office, Melbourne. The mountain ash tree is some 275 feet high and approximately 52 feet round. It is not only a giant tree, but also it is possibly the largest hardwood tree in existence today. It is surrounded by other very large trees and is in what could be called a small rainforest. The area contains mountain ash, myrtle beech, blackwood, silver wattle, dogwood, and other trees that are identified as comprising rainforest areas. 1 thank the Minister for setting aside that area immediately while an investigation of the area is being carried out to determine what is necessary to preserve the area and identify its size and scope. Many years ago, that same area was logged for timber. Before 1939, some 200 or 300 men worked in the area and lived in the bush some 20 kilometres from the nearest town. The area was razed during the tremendous fires of 1939, at which time people moved underground and then came out and put out the fires around the huts. The huts are still there. The area is important not only from an environmental point of view but also much logging history is attached to the area. It has walking tracks and old tram lines dating back from the logging days. 1 believe the tree is 350 years old. Because of the environment in tbe rainforest, the tree has not yet reached maturity and still has possibly 150 years of growth left. If it is not the bi~est tree at present, by the time it has finished growing it probably will be. I ask the Mmister for a report on what she intends for the area in the future. The Hon. ROSEMARY VARTY (Nunawading Province)-I direct the attention of the Minister for Community Services to services for the intellectually disabled. In the province I represent there is a centre for autistic children called lrabina. From visiting that centre I 52 COUNCIL 18 March 1986 Adjournment am aware of the wonderful service it provides not only to the children, the parents and the siblings but also the support it provides to the parents of siblings. A number of parents have approached me expressing concern about the future of the centre. I shall quote from a letter I received from a parent. It states: Regarding these issues I can speak through my own experience as a mother of a seven-year-old autistic daughter. The early intervention program policy currently being implemented says autistic children are to attend E. I. Centres or normal kindergartens instead of autistic centres. Autistic children need huge amounts of consistent and specialized training-more so than children with other disabilities. They need a very structured program and to only be exposed to limited stimulation initially, to gain some basic skills and to break through their very severe language and learning disabilities. Autistic centres and their programs have been developed for this very purpose, and that need is still very strong and will continue to be because ofthe peculiar problems of the autistic and the specialized treatment they require. The Office of Intellectual Disability Services (aIDS) is only allowing young children beginning this year to attend for twelve months. Intervention is absolutely vital and needs to begin as early as possible-my daughter, Anna, was 21f2 when her early intervention program began. I truly do not know where she would be now if she hadn't had that opportunity of specialized input then. I also learnt how best to help her; other family members began to understand how to handle the most difficult characteristics of autism. The services available to us from the time Anna was diagnosed through the wonderfully supportive teachers and psychologist gave us the opportunity to talk to other parents and learn that there certainly was life after diagnosis. She concludes the letter by stating: It does seem a total waste of accumulated years of expertise and of funds which have built such appropriate and beautiful facilities to now have a Government policy telling we parents that it is not what we want or what our children need. On the contrary, it is exactly what we do want and need so as the very best can be given to allow our children the opportunity to advance to their fullest possible potential. Will the Minister give some assurance that centres like Irabina, which play a special part in our community, will receive special consideration? The Hon. R. M. HALLAM (Western Province)-I direct the attention of the Attorney­ General, in his capacity as the Minister responsible for Aboriginal affairs, to a specific issue that I raised with the previous responsible Minister in early January. I wrote to the Minister and advised him that I had been contacted by a resident of Queen Street, Hamilton, who had learned unofficially that the house next to his had been purchased by a Government agency exclusively for the use of Aborigines. I point out that the resident had no objection to the purchase in principle nor, indeed, to the concept of random purchase as an aid to integration, but that he had asked-quite legitimately, in my view-what conditions, if any, would be applied to the purchase so that the property values in the area would be maintained. I make the point that, if the condition of the property is not monitored and maintained, we may well destroy any benefits of the spot purchase program as an assimilation measure. I did not receive a response from the previous Minister and I wonder whether the current Minister will give me a response. The Hon. HADDON STOREY (East Yarra Province)-I direct a matter to the Leader of the Government in his capacity as representative of the Minister for Education. It is the same type of matter as that raised by Mr Wright and Mr Crawford. I refer to apprenticeships. Last week I received a letter from a young lad who wanted to be a carpenter. He was able to arrange an employer and he then applied to be admitted to a T AFE college to do an apprenticeship course in carpentry. He discovered, to his misfortune and discomfort, that there were no places available for him and that, therefore, there was no opportunity for him of proceeding with the apprenticeship. I can understand the concern that plumbers should be able to undertake apprenticeships. However, equally, there are many people who want to undertake carpentry apprenticeships Adjournment 18 March 1986 COUNCIL 53 and people who want to undertake a whole range of trades where apprenticeships are available. The fact is that there are not enough places for any of these people. I ask the Minister to take up with the Minister for Education whether he can give an assurance that the funds allocated under the secret deal made with the Plumbers and Gasfitters Employees Union of Australia will not prejudice the opportunities of people who want to undertake carpentry and other trade courses in T AFE colleges. The Government has a responsibility to consider rationally the needs across the board and to make sensible decisions in the light of all the needs and not to simply decide on priorities because of union blackmail. I ask the Minister to take up the matter with the Minister for Education. The Hon. N. B. REID (8endigo Province)-I direct a matter to the attention of the Minister for Conservation, Forests and Lands. Last Sunday I had the pleasure of visiting Hepburn Springs where the Minister was in attendance to reopen the refurbished Hepburn Springs spa baths. The spa baths are a treat and I recommend them to all honourable members. The refurbishment of the spa baths at Hepburn Springs was derived from a 1 cent a litre surcharge on the extraction of mineral spa water from spa resources throughout Victoria. Over a period of time, more than $300 000 a year went into a fund, and it is currently going into consolidated revenue. The funds previously went into the Mineral Water Development Fund and I understand that fund, at one time, held almost $1 million. I ask the Minister how that money is presently being applied. Is any interest being accrued on the money derived from the extraction of mineral water? If so, is that money being reapplied to the further development of spa resorts and tourism development in Victorian spa centres? The Hon. G. P. CONNARD (Higinbotham Province)-I direct the attention of the Minister for Health to concerns expressed by the Australian Institute of Health Surveyors. The House will be aware that the Food Act 1984 came into effect on 1 January 1986 and, at the same time, the Food Standards Regulations 1985 also came into force. The institute has spoken several times to the Minister about the administration of the Act and I convey to the Minister five matters that the institute has conveyed to the Minister without response. The matters relate to the authorization of officers, including cadet health surveyors; the service of notices on premises now requiring a council resolution; appeal provisions against notices to rectify defects which can allow unsanitary conditions to continue to exist; food sampling procedures and inspections of premises on Crown land. I particularly make reference to the inspection of premises on Crown land because one of the most important responsibilities now removed from local government supervision is that of school canteens, which are on Crown land. As the matter stands under the new laws and regulations, State school canteens, because they are on Crown land, cannot be inspected by municipal health surveyors; however, private school canteens are still subject to supervision. This would appear to be most discriminatory and anomalous. Further, these private school canteens will be subject to the same registration fees as that applicable to large-scale food premises such as supermarkets. For instance, under the new Food (Miscellaneous) Regulations 1985, private school canteens must pay a fee of $50 plus $5 for each person in excess of five employed at the premises. That is a set fee and the local council cannot reduce it, as has been its practice. For instance, the Moorabbin City Council's normal fee has been $10. Again, this would appear to be discriminatory. 54 COUNCIL 18 March 1986 Adjournment

This is an important issue. It is most unlikely that the Health Department has sufficient staff to be able to take over inspections of school canteens, which are necessary for the health of our children. One final statement on the need for school canteens to be subject to a registration and inspection procedure is that some councils are loath to have health surveyors carry out inspections of premises where a regis.tration fee is not applicable. Therefore, I ask: does the Minister agree with the principles of the health surveyors? When does the Minister intend to address the problem? Will the honourable gentleman introduce the appropriate amendments to the legislation in this sessional period? The Hon. A. J. HUNT (South Ea~tern Province)-The Minister for Planning and Environment might or might not in the brief time at his disposal to date in the new Ministry have been made aware of the proposals for the Glen Waverley District Centre, known as the Glen District Centre. Just in case he is not fully familiar with it, I might mention that the plans for this centre go back to 1981 and had been approved in principle before the preSent Government took office. As I understand it, the Government has paid at least lip service to the proposals for development by the council which will produce, .if ultimately approved and enabled by Government, a development of very great value to the citizens of Glen Waverley. However, lack of final agreement between the Ministries of planning and transport and a lack of clarification of the council's legal powers have left the project in limbo with costs continuously escalating. What action will the Minister take to enable the city to proceed with the Glen District Centre redeveiopment and to resolve the ongoing delays and frustrations suffered by the council? I request the Minister to at least see representatives of the city about the matter as early as his schedule enables. The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs)-Mr Dunn dealt with the' removal of transport subsidies on eggs. The Victorian Egg Marketing Board is clearly a very competent and, to all intents and purposes, autonomous board. It has advised the Government and producers that it intends to phase out all dockage and transport subsidies on eggs. . Mr Dunn is correct in saying that at present the board collects a levy of 1· 3 cents a dozen from all producers to subsidize transport costs. I am explaining the intent of the Victorian Egg Marketing Board in so far as its proposals are concerned. I shall make further comment about his question at the end. The move by the board to increase marketing efficiency is intended, firstly, to establish the user-pays principle and, secondly, to stop encouraging farms being built in areas where eggs are not required and which are costly in terms of transport. All producers, therefore, will now have to progressively pay their own transport costs. Mr Dunn is correct in saying that the phase-in period has been extended from three to four years. Most metropolitan producers already pay their own transport costs. Mr Dunn is correct in saying that it will cost producers close to Melbourne something like 1 cent a dozen; in Bendigo it will cost them something like 2·5 cents a dozen and in Mildura it will cost them something like 4 cents a dozen. Mr Dunn had those figures reasonably correct. However, it should be understood that most country producers already enjoy certain advantages, such as cheaper grain and cheaper land for the establishment of their egg farms. I am merely pointing out the quid pro quos and benefits of an egg producer being located away from the metropolitan area. The board has told me that it believes egg producers have been reasonably well protected by the hen quota scheme. I know that Mr Dunn and his party supported that scheme when it came through Parliament some years ago. It has given egg producers stability and a Adjournment 18 March 1986 COUNCIL 55 degree of profitability that few other primary producers enjoy. Therefore, one has to view it in the light of all that has been done. In return the Government should expect-and the board has made this point clear­ the Victorian Egg Marketing Board to arrange for eggs to be produced and marketed in the most efficient way. It is significant that New South Wales recently withdrew its transport subsidies. I do not know whether Mr Dunn knows that. Victoria is the last State to maintain those subsidies. The board consulted beforehand with all producers. This evening I received indications from the Chairman of the Victorian Egg Marketing Board that he personally is consulting again with producer groups tomorrow on the matter. He has assured me that he is doing that, and I conclude by saying to Mr Dunn that I understand his concern. It is an area that he is particularly concerned about-especially in Bendigo. I shall contact the Chairman of the Victorian Egg Marketing Board and ask him to brief me following his meeting tomorrow on whether he reaffirms the position the board has taken. I do not wish to intervene in a manner that would make it look as though that board or any board is simply taking directions from the Minister. However, the issue is serious enough and Mr Dunn makes that clear. I shall ask the chairman of that board to report to me after tomorrow's meeting on whether he confirms the position that has been taken. I shall put to him the position that Mr Dunn put to me and report back to Mr Dunn when the House sits next week on the answer I receive in that regard. I have tried this evening simply to explain the position that the board has put to me on the action that it has taken. Mr Crawford has without doubt the best knowledge in this House on the whole issue of apprenticeships of plumbers and gasfitters. I have not really included you, Mr President, in terms of one of the cut and thrust members of this House; I suppose I should have. I should have understood that you, too, have significant knowledge in this area. Mr Crawford is the only member in this House to whom the Opposition, on handling a Bill, has acceded the capacity to respond on behalf of the Minister who has introduced the Bill. It has probably never happened before on a matter to do with plumbers. Nevertheless, he has asked me, after explaining the issue that Mr Storey, without anything like that knowledge, made a fuss about in the press, to monitor that situation and to talk with the Minister involved. I shall certainly do so. Mr Wright and Mr Storey followed Mr Crawford. They were probably trying to use the debate on the motion for the adjournment of the sitting as a vehicle through which to respond to that matter. That was a little unusual; nevertheless Mr Wright raised the matter of a building inspectors' course. He identified a problem at the Bendigo College of T AFE and the possibility of students having to travel to Ballarat. The issue is important and I shall take it up with the Minister responsible. Mr Storey endeavoured, rather lamely, to respond to the matter raised by Mr Crawford but I shall take up the matter with regard to other apprentices. The Hon. Haddon Storey-The matter is important. The Hon. E. H. WALKER-Obviously Mr Storey did not have a matter to raise during the debate and used that to try to respond to the issue raised by Mr Crawford in a manner which was a little unusual. I think Mr Storey was a little stupefied by the matter raised by Mr Crawford. I shall take up the matter with the Minister. The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Health)-Mr Knowles raised the matter of the lack of a medical superintendent and only one psychiatrist at Aradale Hospital. He raised the problems being faced, which resulted in a proposed excursion being cancelled. I shall look into the matter and respond in due course. 56 COUNCIL 18 March 1986 Adjournment

Mr Connard raised the Question of administration of the Food Act by the Government and matters raised by the Institute of Health Surveyors. He raised five matters which included the major issue of inspection of food premises on Crown land. I look forward to following up the matter and responding in due course. The Hon. J. H. KENNAN (Attorney-General)-Mr Hunt raised a matter concerning the Glen District Centre, which I shall follow up. The Hon. A. J. Hunt-Will you see the council? The Hon. J. H. KENNAN-Of course! Mr Sandon raised a matter concerning the International Year of Peace, with which I have some sympathy and shall take up on his behalf those representations to the Minister for Transport. Mr Macey launched an attack on the Leader of the House, which was unbecoming. Earlier today I indicated that the Leader of the House must be the greatest Minister for Planning and Environment the State has seen. The public is now becoming aware of the transformation that this city has undergone as a result of the four years he has spent in this area. The comparison with Baron Haussmann was well made. Mr Guest raised a matter relating to the Appeals Cost Fund Act. It is true that I have a report and that the matter has been under consultation and is being worked on at present in the department. I understand the general nature of the issue which he has raised. I have said publicly that I do not think the community will tolerate the situation that arose in the Wade case In which the legal services allowed people to run up a cost of $700 ()()() on an appeal about an extension to a private dwelling. A remedy to that situation is being considered so that it will not be allowed to happen again-quite apart from any remedy that may be available in that particular case. Mr Chamberlain raised the matter of a shunters' strike which is affecting a business in Portland. I shall take up the matter with the Minister for Transport. Mr Hallam disgraced himself. for the second time today by discussing Aboriginal affairs. We shall seriously consider whether we will give Mr Hallam our preferences at the next election! Members of the Liberal Party have a much better attitude towards racial matters than members of the National Party. It is a pity that these sorts of issues have been raised twice by Mr Hallam today. The Hon. B. P. Dunn-We want a simple answer from the Minister. The Hon. J. H. KENNAN-You will have an answer. For my own part, I will not have a bar of the sort of sentiments expressed by the National Party on that matter. The Hon. C. J. HOGG (Minister for Community Services)-I am interested in the matter that was raised by Mrs Varty because it is about the future of Irabina, which offers a specialist service for autistic children and their families. It puts the debate between specialists and generic services in an artificial situation because every honourable member would agree that all disabled people should have access to generic services. At the same time I acknowledge that many disabled people need generic services in addition to specialist services. I was always persuaded of it but had I needed any further persuasion, I would cite the case of a visit to the Western Region Autistic Centre in September last year when I talked with perhaps 30 parents of disabled, autistic children about generic services. That visit convinced me of the need for specialist services. In particular I shall cite the case of a mother who said to me, UT ell me, what do I do with my sixteen-year-old boy who runs into the traffic perhaps every second day, takes off all his clothes, who is stronger than me and stronger than his brother, who is two years younger, and stronger than his sister? I need special assistance for that sixteen-year-old who cannot communicate in any way and who has the aberrant behaviour pattern which is common among many autistic children." I cite only one case but it is one that can be duplicated many times. Adjournment 18 March 1986 COUNCIL 57

The Hon. R. I. Knowles-You could also talk about the three-year-olds! The Hon. C. J. HOGG-Also the many parents of autistic children at almost every age. Officers of the Office of Intellectually Disabled Services are visiting Irabina and will be reporting to me. I am not persuaded of the case of generic services being sufficient for autistic children. I acknowledge here and will continue to acknowledge the need for specialist services for many people, for many families, and for many individuals who are autistic. The future of such services should be enhanced along with the provision of generic services. I hope to report regularly on these services. The Hon. R. I. Knowles-Will you go to Irabina? The Hon. C. J. HOGG-I shall be delighted to go to Irabina and shall do so as soon as possible. I shall talk to Mrs Varty about that. The Hon. J. E. KIRNER (Minister for Conservation, Forests and Lands)-In response to the request from Mr Evans about the management of the alpine areas, it is correct that I have proceeded to advertise for six persons to form a management team to develop a management plan for the alpine area. That area is so important to Victoria that it cannot be left unplanned and we shall proceed accordingly. The underlying question by Mr Evans was: Why have a national park in that area? The first reason is that it is an important vision to which a majority of the members of the Victorian community remain committed. It is just as important as the vision of the heritage of the cattlemen, and those two things ought to be part of the Australian heritage and will be part no matter how long this Parliament takes to pass that Bill. The second reason is the issue of standards which is often pointed out in debate on national parks. A national park is established because one wants to be assured of, firstly, protection of the area, and, secondly, certain standards of management. It is interesting that a colleague of Mr Evans in Queensland decided that he could snap his fingers at national park status and could get rid of a certain island that had been declared a national park by selling it to private enterprise. That was Mr Bjelke-Petersen. The Hon. B. P. Dunn-He did not snap his fingers. The Hon. J. E. KIRNER-He did and he did not because he had to back off. If there has ever been greater proof of the need for national parks being embodied in legislation, that is it, because the Premier of Queensland could not get the pinching of a national park from the community through Parliament. He could not get it through his own party! It would be delightful if the leadership of the National Party had the same strong views as the leadership, in the party sense as distinct from the political sense, of the National Party in Queensland, but I shall not hold my breath. The second issue involved the exclusion of certain industries. If we are to have a national park we must exclude logging, and then the areas available for other non­ conforming uses can be planned. I do not believe grazing is necessarily incompatible with a national park status but it must be planned. The third issue involved the expert advice of the Land Conservation Council; and the importance of the council is mentioned in the statement of a former Minister for Conservation, Mr Bill Borthwick, on the role of the council. Victoria will have a national park. Whether it will be proclaimed in this sessional period is up to the Opposition. I am prepared to negotiate except for two non-negotiable areas. Mr Evans asked whether I was confident of legislation being passed in this sessional period. I am prepared to negotiate on all matters except for two: it must be a contiguous national park and there must be no diminution of existing national parks. 58 COUNCIL 18 March 1986 Adjournment

Multi-use is a concept for some parks but not for national parks. Therefore, I expect not only to appoint a management team but also that New South Wales and the Australian Capital Territory will be involved in the co-operative management of alpine areas to smooth the way for a national park and to demonstrate to the community in the surrounding areas, as was done with the Grampians, that the national park will be valuable for them and for the rest of the Victorian community. Mr Murphy asked about the progress that my department has made in the identification of a large tree near Powelltown. The tree was brought to the attention of Mr Murphy by Mr Marshalek and both gentlemen are to be congratulated on their concern-and the Government is also concerned-to preserve areas of rainforest from logging and to direct the attention of the public to the importance of trees as part of our national heritage. On World Forestry Day, which is Friday of this week, I intend, together with the media, to visit that tree to declare its protection from logging and to make an announcement on the Government's view about the participation of the community in the identification of similar trees. I thank Mr Murphy and Mr Marshalek for their work on this matter and I invite them to join in the celebrations. Mr Reid shared with me most of the experience of the pleasant opening of a project at Hepburn Springs, but he did not quite make the same splash with the media that I did. I do not believe he was behind me when I slipped! The opening celebration was a tremendous event. I pay tribute to Mr Reid and to other people who worked with the previous Government to ensure that a Mineral Water Development Fund was established and that an opportunity of funding this type of activity was available. I also congratulate the far-sightedness of the former Minister for Conservation, Forests and Lands who assisted in the planning of the development. Mr Reid asked how the considerable money now being generated by the 1 cent a litre levy will be applied. I cannot supply the full financial details, although he has general material from a question on notice asked last year. I shall provide the details tomorrow after I have received the statistics. However, I take this opportunity of assuring him that the money will be spent on the purposes for which it was raised: to develop the whole of the mineral springs area. The Government has a $1·5 million expenditure program planned in conjunction with the Mineral Springs Advisory Committee involving the rebuilding ofthe kiosk and pavilion. I am so confident about the future of the tourist and recreational nature of this area that I assure Mr Reid that as fast as the profits are made from people drinking mineral water, the Government will pass them on to the mineral springs development. The motion was agreed to. The House adjourned at 10.25 p.m. Questions on Notice 18 March 1986 COUNCIL 59

QUESTIONS ON NOTICE

BORROWINGS BY STATUTORY AUTHORITIES (Question No. 8) The Hon. J. V. C. GUEST (Monash Province) asked the Minister for Health, for the Treasurer: In respect of each of the borrowings by Victorian statutory authorities since 3 April 1982 denominated in currencies other than Australian dollars, including those described as "Non-Conventional" as well as "Conventional" at page 176 of Budget Paper No. 2, 1984-85- (a) What was the borrowing authority? (b) What were the authorities and/or department for which such funds were raised? (c) For what purpose was the borrowing made? (d) What was the amount of such loan-(i) in the currency in which it was denominated; and (ii) expressed in Australian dollars at the exchange rate current at the date of the loan agreement? (e) What was the interest rate? (I) What were the dates for payment of interest? (g) What were the repayment dates? (h) How much has been repaid, and on what dates and at what cost-(i) in the currency in which the repayment was made; and (ii) in Australian dollars at the exchange rate current at the date of the repayment? (i) What variations of the loan agreements have been made and when were such variations made? (j) What hedging arrangements have been made in respect of foreign exchange risks, on what dates and in respect of what amounts-(i) in respect of principal; (ii) in respect of interest; and (iii) on what dates and in respect of what amounts? (k) What currency swap arrangements have been made in respect of what amounts, at what exchange rates and on what dates? (I) What interest swap arrangements have been made and on what dates? (m) What other measures have been taken dealing with the management of foreign exchange risks in respect of principal and interest, respectively, and on what dates were such measures taken and in respect of what amounts? (n) What was the amount of principal outstanding as at 31 March 1985 and 31 December 1984, respectively­ (i) in the currency or currencies in which the loan was denominated at that date; (ii) in the currency of the original borrowing at the exchange rate current at such date; and (iii) in Australian dollars at the exchange rate current at such date? (0) What were the dates and the amounts of payments of interest expressed in the currency of actual payment and the currency of original obligation at the exchange rate, respectively-(i) current at the date of payment; (ii) current at the date of the original loan; (iii) in Australian dollars at the exchange rate current at the date of payment; and (iv) in Australian dollars on the assumption that no alteration in exchange rates had occurred since the date of the original loan? The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Health)-The answer supplied by the Treasurer is: The information was requested and made available to the honourable member under freedom of information legislation. GRANTS TO AMALGAMATED METAL WORKERS UNION (Question No. 16) The Hon. M. A. BIRRELL (East Yarra Province) asked the Minister for Health, for the Minister for Employment and Industrial Affairs: (a) What grants were made to the Amalgamated Metal Workers Union, or organizations directly associated with that body, in 1982, 1983, 1984 and 1985 (to 1 May), respectively? 60 COUNCIL 18 March 1986 Questions on Notice

(b) Upon what date and for what purpose was each grant made? (c) Were any audits made ofthe expenditure of the funds involved; ifso, will he make them publicly available? The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Health)-The answer supplied by the Minister for Employment and Industrial Affairs is: $ (a) 1982 17500 1983 89500 1984 27500 1985 (to 1 May) NIL (b) 1982 The $17 500 was part of a total grant of $20 000 which was provided to examine alternatives intended to stabilize employment in the Government aircraft manufacturing industry. 1983 (i) Balance of$2500 Government Aircraft Factory research grant. (ii) A grant of $20 000 was approved in March 1983 to employ a co-ordinator to research employment issues in the western suburbs, to organize seminars and meetings, and to provide access to trained advisers. (iii) $30000 was provided to fund five metals and engineering industry forums conducted by the Metals and Engineering Industry Development Committee in conjunction with the department. These forums canvassed measures to stimulate long-term job creation in the manufacturing sector. (iv) $74000 was provided jointly to the union and the Metal Trades Industry Association (i.e.: $37000 to each organization) to fund one research worker each plus secretarial support to assist them in their contributions to the work of the Metals and Engineering Industry Development Committee. 1984 $27 500 was made available to fund a study of the employment and labour market implications of the introduction and diffusion of Computer-Aided Design/Computer-Aided Manufacture (CAD/CAM) systems in selected parts of the Victorian manufacturing sector. (c) With the exception of the last-mentioned grant to fund the CAD/CAM study which is still to be completed, audits have been made. Statements are available for inspection. In two cases, unspent funds were refunded to the department. WORKER CO-OPERATIVES (Question No. 26) The Hon. W. R. BAXTER (North Eastern Province) asked the Minister for Health, for the Minister for Employment and Industrial Affairs: (a) Which worker co-operatives have been assisted under the Co-operative Development Program since its inception, and to what extent was each assisted? (b) Which worker co-operatives received an innovations grant under the Affirmative Employment Programme of the former Ministry of Employment and Training, specifying the sum involved in each case? The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Health)-The answer supplied by the Minister for Employment and Industrial Affairs is: The information sought by the honourable member is already publicly available in the annual reports of the former Ministry of Employment and Training and the 1984-85 annual report of the Department of Employment and Industrial Affairs. RURAL READJUSTMENT SCHEME (Question No. 31) The Hon. B. P. DUNN (North Western Province) asked the Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs: With respect to the $3·6 million available to Victorian dairy farmers under the rural readjustment scheme­ (i) what amount has been allocated to date; and (ii) how many applicants have been assisted? Questions on Notice 18 March 1986 COUNCIL 61

The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs)-The answer is: In addition to special measures such as rural adjustment, $3·5 million has been earmarked as additional funding with priority to assist dairy farmers who leave the industry in circumstances of hardship. $39000 has been allocated to date to two families. SYBYLLA CO-OPERATIVE PRESS AND PUBLICATIONS LIMITED (Question No. 40) The Hon. M. A. BIRRELL (East Yarra Province) asked the Minister for Health, for the Minister for Employment and Industrial Affairs: (a) What grants were made to Sybylla Co-operative Press and Publications Ltd in 1982, 1983, 1984, and 1985 (to 20 September), respectively? (b) For what purposes were each of those grants made? (c) What characteristic distinguishes this co-operative as worthy of receiving such grants? (d) Were any audits made of the expenditure of the funds involved; ifso, will he make them publicly available? (e) What were the profit and loss figures for the co-operative in each of the years specified in part (a)? The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Health)-The answer supplied by the Minister for Employment and Industrial Affairs is: (a) Sybylla Co-operative Press and Publications Ltd which was registered as a co-operative on 7 July 1976, received grants as follows from 1982 to 1985:

$ 1982 Two grants ($65 572 and $2567) Total 68 139 1983 One grant ($38784) and one loan ($400) Total 39 184 1984 One grant ($43 522) and two loans ($9000 and $2180) Total 54702 1985 Nil

(b) All grants and loans were made for the purpose of establishing and supporting the initial operations of the co-operative in accordance with the principles, aims, objectives and procedures of the Co-operative Development Program. Grants covered operational costs of equipment, wages, accountancy, marketing, advertising, education, training and occupational health and safety. The second grant (1982-$2567) to Sybylla was made specifically to adjust wages of print-office staff in accordance with award rates. All loan funds provided were used for the purchase of additional equipment. (c) No special characteristic distinguishes Sybylla Press and Publications Ltd from any of the other co-operatives approved for funding under program guidelines and procedures. The screening process is detailed and extensive, and is based upon analysis of a detailed business plan submitted by applicants. Assistance is finally given only to those co-operatives which are adjudged to have potential for economic viability, and Sybylla's application was successful on that basis. (d) The provision of audit statements of expenditure has been a condition offunding in all but those applying to the initial grant ($65 572) which was approved by the then Minister for Employment and Training, Mr Brian Dixon. All required statements are either in hand or in the preparation process. A full audit statement is required by end of March 1986. All expenditure statements will be available on request, subject to freedom of information specifications in relation to the operation of a business enterprise. (e) Profit and loss figures for Sybylla are as follows:

Year Profit Loss $ 1982 632.74 62 COUNCIL 18 March 1986 Questions on Notice

Year Profit Loss S 1983 3634.42 1984 2234.31 1985 3585.65 BORROWINGS BY STATUTORY AUTHORITIES (Question No. 41) The Hon. J. V. C. GUEST (Monash Province) asked the Minister for Health, for the Treasurer: In relation to each ofthe borrowings the subject of Question on Notice No. 8 received on 23 April 1985- (a) What was the date of the loan agreement and of each variation thereof? (b) What was the date of each draw-down of amounts borrowed pursuant to such loan agreement and what was the amount at each such date-(i) in the currency borrowed; and (ii) in Australian dollars at the rate of exchange current at the date of each such draw-down? (c) What was the discount (if any) at which the loan was made or issued? (d) What was the coupon rate of interest and what was the actual rate of interest on the amount of the borrowing less discount? The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Health)-The answer supplied by the Treasurer is: Information regarding loan details was requested and made available to the honourable member under freedom of information legislation. GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES ON UNATTACHED liST (Question No. 44) The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN (Western Province) asked the Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs, for the Pre~ier: (a) How many public servants and exempt employees are presently on the "unattached" list? (b) How long has each person been on the Hst? (c) What is their total salary cost? (cl) How many are entitled to expense of office allowances and what are the amounts in each case? (e) How many are entitled to the use of a Government car and driver or a Government car without driver? The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs)-The answer supplied by the Premier is:" " (a) and (b) As at It" October 1985 the following officers were unattached from the indicated dates: Agency/Classificat ion Date Unattached Agriculture ADM-2 14.5.84 SCI-4 2.2.85 SCI-4 1. 2.85 SCI-4 2.2.85 Arts ADM-4 14.8.85 SCI-3 1. 2.85 Conservation, Forests and Lands SCI-2 1. 2.85 SCI-l 2.2.85 ADM-3 29.3.77 Technical Assistant, Grade I 4.3.76 Consumer Affairs ADM-l 5.3.84 Questions on Notice 18 March 1986 COUNCIL 63

Agency/Classification Date Unattached Industry, Technology and Resources SES-4 3.9.84 ADM-4 9.12.81 Education ADM-I 19.2.85 ADM-7 11 .7.85 ADM-4 1.5.85 ADM-5 19.3.85 Employment and Industrial Affairs SEN-I 3.4.84 SEN-I 3.4.84 ADM-5 1. 8.85 Ethnic Affairs ADM-7 26.10.82 Health ADM-4 25.7.83 ADM-7 12.6.83 Housing ADM-5 15.2.85 AR-4 29.1.85 ADM-5 15.2.85 ADM-4 15.2.85 ADM-7 22.4.83 ADM-4 15.2.85 Stenographer 1.2.84 ADM-5 15.2.85 ADM-3 3.1.85 CSO-2 8.3.85 ADM-I 12.2.85 ADM-2 12.10.84 Law LO-8 14.12.81 CC-lA 18.7.84 CC-I 19.5.82 Cash Register Operator, Grade I 31.8.77 CC-4 19.5.82 CC-4 19.5.82 CC-I 21.10.83 Clerical Officer, Grade 3 31.8.77 CC-2 19.5.82 CC-4 19.5.82 ADM-5 21. 11.84 Stenographer 18.9.80 Attendant (Search) 8.10.84 Attendant (Search) 7.12.83 Attendant (Search) 3.10.84 LO-5 3.8.82 Minerals and Energy ADM-7 17.6.85 ADM-7 15.2.85 SCI-5 2.2.85 Machinist, Grade III 18.10.82 SCI-2 2.2.85 SCI-2 2.2.85 Office ofthe T AFE Board ADM-5 11.4.85 64 COUNCIL 18 March 1986 Questions on Notice

Agency/Classification Date Unattached Planning and Environment ADM-5 6.4.84 SCI-4 I. 2.85 SES-4 3.5.85 ADM-7 6.4.84 ADM-8 30.5.85 SEN-l 30.5.85 SEN-l 30.5.85 Premier and Cabinet ADM-5 14.10.80 ADM-3 4.2.85 ADM-4 17.6.85 ADM-5 4.2.85 Audit Office ADM-4 27.3.84 ADM-4 27.3.84 Public Service Board ADM-6 16.9.82 ADM-4 9.1. 85 ADM-4 9.3.85 ADM-3 23.1. 84 ADM-5 29.5.84 ADM-6 16.9.82 Public Works ADM-5 23.1.81 Community Services W-7 13.9.83 W-4 8. I. 85 SW-4 30.8.83 SES-2 28.5.85 W-4 29.2.84 Caretaker, Grade 11 21.9.84 Child Care Officer 12.10.84 W-4 22.7.84 Child Care Officer 12.10.84 Corrections ADM-8 16.1.84 ADM-2 18.7.84 W-7 21.12.83 W-9 3. I. 83 Machinist, Grade III 13.4.84 PP-6 31. I. 84 W-9 30.11.84 Supervisor of Industries 15.11.84 Governor, Grade I 24.9.84 ADM-3 19.3.85 ADM-3 19.3.85 Welfare Officer 2.2.84 Clerical Officer, Grade 2 6.9.84 SCI-2 119.7.84 Management and Budget ADM-4 24.9.85 ADM-8 19.6.85 State Insurance Office Clerical Officer, Grade 2 20.11. 84 ADM-4 27.1.83 ADM-7 5.1.81 Questions on Notice 18 March 1986 COUNCIL 65

Agency/Classi/zcat ion Date Unattached Rural Water Commission E-2 26.6.84

KEy ADM = Administrative Officer AR = Architect CC = Clerk of Courts CSO = Computer Systems Officer E = Engineer LO = Legal Officer pp = Publications and Publicity Officer SCI = Scientist SEN = Senior Officer SES = Senior Executive Service SW = Social Worker W = Community Welfare Officer NOTE: Unattachment does not apply to exempt employees (c) Total salary cost of these officers cannot be calculated without unjustified work. Many unattached officers are on leave without payor have had periods of leave without pay during their unattachment. Examples include officers on extended sick leave, study leave, secondment or other employment. Salary information is not held centrally therefore it is not possible to calculate total salaries paid to' unattached officers during their periods of unattachment without requesting each agency to access historical pay records of individual unattached officers. (d) Only SES officers are entitled to expense of office allowance which at 11 October 1985 were: Expense of Office Allowance ($) SES-I 2228 SES-2 2228 SES-3 2228 SES-42786 SES-5 2786 SES-6 2786 (e) None of the officers on the list were entitled to a car with or without a driver. AUSTRALIA DAY COMMITTEE (Question No. 55) The Hon. G. P. CONNARD (Higinbotham Province) asked the Minister for Agricultural and Rural Affairs, for the Premier: (a) Who are the members ofthe Australia Day Committee. giving the terms ofand criteria for their appointment?

(b) How many meetings has the committee held during the last financial year, delineating the fees paid to each of the members?

(c) In how many interstate and international trips have members and staff of the committee participated, delineating the cost to each person? (d) What are the details of the staff of the committee. giving the salaries paid to them in the last financial year?

(e) What are the general and specific activities of the committee? (I) What was the cost ofthe function by the committee held in January 1985 in the City SQuare? The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs)-The answer supplied by the Premier is:

(a) The criteria for appointment were based on the ability and interest of each person in promoting and developing the observance of Australia Day and of fostering a sense of pride within all members of our community. Session 1986-3 66 COUNCIL 18 March 1986 Questions on Notice

The members and their terms of appointment are: The Hon. Mr Justice I. Gray, Judge Unlimited duration of the Supreme Court of Victoria, Chairman-Australia Day Com~ mittee-Victoria Mr G. Newcombe, Executive Limited to term of the Director, Victoria Council, Bicentennial Australian Bicentennial Authority Mr R. K. Crawford, Superintendent Unlimited Organizer of FEIP and a of Arts, Melbourne City Council participant in the organization of previous Australia Day activities Mr R. Blow, Principal Officer, Unlimited Representing the Aboriginal Aboriginal Affairs Unit community Mr R. Chubb, Manager, Centre Point Limited to term of appointment Chairman, Bourke Street Mall Mall as Chairman of the Bourke Australia Day Committee Street Mall Australia Day Committee Mr Phillip Adams, Monahan Dayman Unlimited Adams (Vic.) PIL, Journalist Mr F. Hay, Nurseryman Limited to term of appointment Chairman, Victorian Council of as Chairman of the Victorian Community Service Clubs, Council of Community Service representing service clubs in Clubs Victoria Mr David Johnston, Deputy Director Unlimited A representative of the visual of News, Channel 10 media Mr N. Randazzo, Editor, 11 Globo Unlimited A representative ofthe ethnic press and representing ethnic interests Mr A. Robertson, Managing Director, Unlimited A representative of the business Louis A. Sallman & Co. community Mr K. Travers, Barrister Unlimited A representative of the legal profession Mrs R. Burns Unlimited At the time a member of the National Australia Day Committee Ms Jacki Weaver, prominent actress Limited to term of appointment A member of the National to National Australia Day Australia Day Council Council. Professor Weston Bate, Professor in Unlimited Australian Studies, Deakin University Mr K. D. Green, CB., O.B.E., E.D., Unlimited Former Permanent Head, Department of the Premier and Cabinet Mr R. Moors, A.M., General Unlimited Manager, The Melbourne Moomba Festival Ltd Mr C. Wallace~Crabbe, Reader in Unlimited English, Melbourne University (b) Eleven meetings were held during the last financial year. No fees were paid. (c) There were four trips interstate by the Executive Director. The cost was $562.80 for accommodation. Travel costs were paid by the Commonwealth. (d) The staff of the committee and the salary paid in the last financial year are: Executive Director: $31 116.23, fully funded by the Commonwealth Government. Questions on Notice 18 March 1986 COUNCIL 67

(e) The general and specific activities of the committee are: Developing a promotional program to increase community awareness of, and participation in, Australia Day celebratory activities. Enlisting financial support from appropriate non-Government sources to enable the upgrading and expansion of Australia Day celebrations. Developing a Statewide infrastructure to support the staging of celebratory activities and fostering a sense of national pride within all members of our community. Liaison with Commonwealth, State and local government authorities, community organizations and the media. Organizing activities within the City of Melbourne for the celebration of Australia Day. (f) The cost to the committee ofthe function held in January 1985 in the City Square was $40 15. This was paid to the FEIP Office of the Melbourne City Council for the staging of the event. PUBLICATION "YOU AND THE MET" (Question No. 56) The Hon. G. P. CONNARD (Higinbotham Province) asked the Attorney-General, for the Minister for Transport: With respect to the publication "You and the Met"-(i) how many copies have been printed; (ii) what was the printing cost; and (iii) what was the consultancy and design cost? The Hon. J. H. KENNAN (Attorney-General)-The answer supplied by the Minister for Transport is: (i) 50000 (ii) $23051.25 (iii) Consultancy-$7400.06, design-$8848.92. DRINK DRIVING CONVICTIONS FOR PROBATIONARY DRIVERS (Question No. 59) The Hon. M. A. BIRRELL (East Yarra Province) asked the Minister for Conservation, Forests and Lands, for the Minister for Police and Emergency Services: (a) How many motor vehicle drivers with probationary licences have been-(i) apprehended for, and (ii) convicted of, driving a car whilst having a blood alcohol level in excess of().()()? (b) In each case, what was the age and gender of the driver and what penalty was applied for the breach of the law? The Hon. J. E. KIRNER (Minister for Conservation, Forests and Lands)-The answer supplied by the Minister for Police and Emergency Services is: (a) During the period 22 May 1984 to 31 October 1985, 301 probationary motor car licence holders in the metropolitan area have been charged. (b) Age Male Female Under 18 I 18 98 6 19 48 1 20 42 21 36 2 22 16 1 23 9 2 24 8 25 8 26 6 27 3 28 1 68 COUNCIL 18 March 1986 Questions on Notice

Age Male Female 29 3 30 2 32 2 33 I 37 4 I 288 13 NOTE: I. The above figures do not include country areas as the time and resources needed to obtain this information are not warranted. 2. The Police Department does not keep records of the results of the court hearings. This information should be available from the Road Traffic Authority. PUBLIC SERVICE BOARD CONSULTANTS AND SPECIAL PROJECTS (Question No. 60) The Hon. G. P. CONNARD (Higinbotham Province) asked the Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs, for the Premier: With respect to Public Service Board Program No. 610.3347 "Consultants and Special Projects" as shown in the Appropriation (1985-86, No. I) BiII- (a) What are the details of the special projects and the amounts expended on each project during 1984-85- (b) What are the details of the consultants used, delineating their names, the fees paid and the projects on which they were used during 1984-85? (c) What are the details of the anticipated special projects and expenditure on each of the projects for 1985-86? (d) What are the details of the anticipated consultants to be used, delineating their names, the projected fees to be paid and the anticipated projects on which they will be used during 1985-86? The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs)-The answer supplied by the Premier is: (a) and (b) Details of Expenditure-Consultants and Special Projects 1984-85- Consultant/Project Amount Details $ General Counsel Pty. Ltd. (John Mant) 20204 Review of Government Property and Land Functions Steering Committee Cullen Egan & Dell (John Egan) 8903 Classification standards consultancy R. V. Goode & Associates (R. V. Goode) 2000 Management Consultancy Division Career Path Study Urwick International 1995 Roster Review Victoria Police Melbourne University 24377 Computer analysis-Office of Merit Protection Survey David Reddin Management Consultancy 3964 Executive search assistance-Planning and Pty. Ltd. (David Reddin) Environment Gilletts Solicitors 6720 Legal Review-Crown Solicitor's Office Department of Administrative Studies, 1250 Staff development seminar RMIT (Prof. K. Smith) Webb, Jessop & Co. (E.A. Webb) 1680 Professional assistance in conducting an inquiry pursuant to section 57 of the Public Service Act McKay & Associates (M. McKay) 2519 Performance management project in public hospitals TOTAL 73612

(c) and (d) Consultants and Special Projects Expenditure 1985-86 $ Salaries and salary-related expenditure 902500 Other administrative expenses 63500 Executive development expenditure 160000 External consultancy assistance 214000 1340 000 Questions on Notice 18 March 1986 COUNCIL 69

Details of External Consultancy Assistance Contained Above S Staff development and training projects (non-executive development) 13500 HEF Roster Review and Review of Nursing Structures 150000 External Management Consultancy (subject to tender) 12000 Validation of examination material (subject to tender) 5000 Category and Classification Reviews (Noble Lowndes Aust. Ltd) 10000 Training on Points Factor Evaluation procedure (subject to tender) 10000 Editorial assistance in the production of the Personnel Practices Manual (subject to tender) 14000 214000

ARMY OFFICER CADET SCHOOL, PORTSEA (Question No. 61) The Hon. M. A. BIRRELL (East Yarra Province) asked the Minister for Conservation, Forests and Lands: (a) What progress has the Government made in its dealings with the Commonwealth Government over the proposal to transfer to the State all or part of the land at Portsea which is currently used by the Officer Cadet School? (b) What plans, if any, does the Government have for creating a national park or special historic reserve out of all or part of that site? The Hon. J. E. KIRNER (Minister for Conservation, Forests and Lands)-The answer is: (a) Agreement in principle to transfer approximately 250 hectares of Commonwealth land from the Army Reserve at Point Nepean to State ownership was announced on 7 November 1985. The Officer Cadet School buildings and the land immediately surrounding the school will remain with the Army, as will the firing range area on the south side of the peninsula from Cheviot Hill east to London Bridge. (b) The land to be transferred will be added to the Cape Schanck National Park. Development of the national park and its historical features will be funded initially by $2 million bicentennial funding.

LEGAL AID COMMISSION COMPUTER (Question No. 64) The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN (Western Province) asked the Attorney-General: (a) Did the Legal Aid Commission encounter problems with its computer during 1984-85? (b) Did the commission find it necessary to change computers; if so-(i) what was the cost of the changeover, (ii) what are the details of the computer which was purchased; and (iii) what happened to the previous computer? The Hon. J. H. KENNAN (Attorney-General)-The answer is: (a) Yes. During 1984-85 the Legal Aid Commission was in the process of installing a computer system pursuant to a contract under which there are seven joint and separate purchasers, namely, six State or Territory legal aid commissions and the Commonwealth of Australia. It became apparent to the purchasers and the supplier that the hardware did not have the capacity to handle the system that had been developed. (b) Yes. (i) A national settlement was reached under which both the purchasers and the supplier contributed to the cost of an upgrade to the hardware in each State and Territory. At the same time, the Victorian commission was expanding its operations as a result of the provision of increased funding from State sources, namely the Solicitors' Guarantee Fund. Part of the capital cost of this expenditure was to provide for an upgrade ofcomputer hardware greater than that proposed in the settlement but with the commission receiving the benefits of that settlement. The over-all cost to the commission of the changeover including both the cost of rectifying the problems and the cost arising from expanded activities, was $378 093. (ii) The full details ofthe computer equipment acquired with the changeover are: I x 6620 16 megabyte 5-channel processor (National Advanced Systems) 70 COUNCIL 18 March 1986 Questions on Notice

I x 3830-002 Disk controller 2 x 3350-A02 Disk unit-634 megabytes each I x 3803-00 Magnetic tape controller 2 x 3420-005 Magnetic tape unit-I 600 BPI I x 4304 Memorex printer-I 500 LPM I x 3704 IBM Remote communications controller-61ines I x 3274 IBM Local control unit-16 ports. (iii) The previous computer was transferred to the ACT Legal Aid Commission as part of the national settlement. LEGAL AID COMMISSION REPORT (Question No. 65) The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN (Western Province) asked the Attorney-General: In relation to the Legal Aid Commission report for the year 1984-85-(i) what are the details of the administration expenses of $115 565 listed on page 80 under "others"; (ii) to whom were the consultant fees of $25648 paid and for what purpose; and (iii) how much money was spent by the commission in conducting a stand at the Royal Melbourne Show in 1984 and, if applicable, in 1985? The Hon. J. H. KENNAN (Attorney-General)-The answer is: (i) The details of the administration expenses of $115 565 listed on page 80 of the Legal Aid Commission annual report 1984-5 under ··others" are as follows: $ Staff amenities to 354.11 Motor vehicle running expenses to 723.17 Motor vehicle purchases (two cars) 14077.92 Relocation costs and capital costs of expansion of five regional offices 73985.96 Temporary staff-new Children's Court program 1080.47 Audit report on viability of Legal Resources Book 1600.00 Sundry (including security services for regional offices and stamp duty on leases) 3743.41 (ii) The following consultancy fees were paid: Ashby Smyth & Co.-$12 390-professional legal fees costs consultants engaged for the costing of disputed accounts rendered by private practitioners. Grace Cost Consultants-$12 458.25-professional legal fees cost consultants engaged for the costing of disputed accounts rendered by private practitioners. W. E. Bassett-$4OO-engineering consultant engaged in relation to capital works for relocation of Criminal Law Division to 16 Queen Street, Melbourne. Douglas Walker & Associates-$400-management consultants engaged in relation to a staffing submission to the Public Service Board. (iii) $10 349 was spent by the commission to conduct a stand at the Royal Melbourne Show in 1984. The commission did not conduct a stand in 1985. OPERATION "DONUT" (Question No. 70) The Hon. R. J. LONG (Gippsland Province) asked the Minister for Conservation, Forests and Lands, for the Minister for Police and Emergency Services: What was the cost of the police presence (Operation Donut) at Phillip Island on 2, 3 and 4 November 1985, and how many traffic and other offences respectively, were detected by police engaged in and during the period of Operation Donut? The Hon. J. E. KIRNER (Minister for Conservation, Forests and Lands)-The answer supplied by the Minister for Police and Emergency Services is: The cost of police presence during operation ··Donut" was $55 722 which was met by the organizers of the lOOth Anniversary of Motor Cycling Rally. Questions on Notice 18 March 1986 COUNCIL 71

Eighty-one traffic offences, 57 unroadworthy vehicles and 10 other offences were detected by police on I, 2 and 3 November 1985. The final day's events were cancelled. SPERWAY CONSTRUCTIONS PTY LTD (Question No. 74) The Hon. W. R. BAXTER (North Eastern Province) asked the Attorney-General: On what date was Sperway Constructions Pty Ltd incorporated under the Companies (Victoria) Code? The Hon. J. H. KENNAN (Attorney-General)-The answer is: Sperway Constructions Pty Ltd was incorporated on 13 December 1976. ROAD CONSTRUCTION FUNDS (Question No. 76) The Hon. G. P. CONNARD (Higinbotham Province) asked the Attorney-General, for the Minister for Transport: (a) What are the funds (including special impact works, but excluding Australian Bicentennial Road Development funds) made available to the Road Construction Authority (or its predecessor) for 1985-86 and over each of the past five years? (b) What are the funds made available to each local council in Victoria for unclassified roads for 1985-86 and over each of the past five years? (c) Will the Minister increase those allocations to keep up with increases in the consumer price index? The Hon. J. H. KENNAN (Attorney-General)-The answer supplied by the Minister for Transport is: (a) $OOO's 1985-86 (Estimated) 451 872 1984-85 433 162 1983-84 411910 1982-83 382 103 1981-82 346521 1980-81 287616 The amounts shown do not include amounts made available in relation to the West Gate Bridge. (b) See attached statement. By way of explanation the majority of unclassified roads are classified as local roads by the Federal Government Although funding for local roads was increased by approximately 5 per cent by the Federal Government under the provisions of the Australian Land Transport (Financial Assistance) Act 1985, funding for arterial roads was cut by approximately 15 per cent Because the Federal Government ignored the findings of studies by the National Association of State Road Authorities and the Bureau of Transport Economics that needs were highest on arterial roads (particularly urban arterial roads) and that the highest economic return would be achieved by expenditure on such roads, the Victorian Government has directed a larger share of State funds to arterial roads with a corresponding reduction in the amount available for local roads. In addition the Victorian Government increased its contribution to road funding by $39 million. Further, as part of the Government roads program and in line with its policy of emphasizing improvements in road safety, funding to the Road Traffic Authority for the Traffic Facilities Program has been substantially increased over recent years. Allocations to councils for traffic facilities works on unclassified roads are made a"s part of this program.

(c) The State Budget provided $575·3 million for road programs in 1985-86. This maintained over-all road funding in real terms. Total allocations to councils by the ReA for main and unclassified roads (including Australian Bicentennial Road Development funds) have increased by approximately 8 per cent in 1985-86 which is inconsistent with the expected rate of inflation for the year. 72 COUNCIL 18 March 1986 Questions on Notice

1980-81 1981-82 1982-83 1983-84 1984-85 1985-86 Final Final Final Final Final Final AI/oc. AI/oc. AI/oc. AI/oc. Alloc. AI/oc.

Municipality Unclass'd Unclass'd Unclass'd Unclass'd Unclass'd Unclass'd Division Total Total Total Total Total Total Baimsdale Avon 244010 277 900 328600 328300 336500 323500 Bairnsdale Shire 403780 506 290 514750 557700 570250 516500 Bairnsdale Town 149500 . 172 800 189898 192800 196000 183000 Maffra 318800 306300 375000 429000 413000 418600 Omeo 231 700 254300 307200 329500 350000 335700 Orbost 546416 573 857 660358 670380 719900 703700 Sale City 151 590 144700 159000 107300 170700 157000 Tambo 462400 495815 572 101 610 559 607900 612500 Total 2508 196 2731 962 3106907 3225539 3364250 3250500 Ballarat Ararat City 92080 158500 151 385 307800 132 100 98200 Ararat Shire 255900 336800 370670 369 156 376900 359500 Avoca 108700 114 100 142700 170300 170200 212700 Bacchus Marsh 124400 124060 134060 149760 163600 156 100 Ballan 107500 113040 145540 152957 163 195 493400 Ballaarat City 332 100 338500 371 700 396800 423000 148200 Ballarat Shire 272 200 267900 328840 319600 335500 324400 Bun~ree 91200 118100 180100 122700 130300 124900 Bumnyong 126900 133500 182200 192000 259900 198 100 Creswlck 117100 120000 129500 140 200 155000 140000 Daylesford and Glenlyon 112000 112500 128400 133500 141 200 126500 Gisborne 126800 126100 128403 126300 133900 128400 Grenville 117800 123500 140500 145600 153700 145700 Kyneton 198397 265200 300 670 225700 272 458 228 100 Lexton 87000 91400 121932 108000 115800 109500 Maryborough City 64400 67 100 84200 72500 78700 88900 Newham and Woodend 139400 133700 135200 164875 153900 129300 Newstead 101900 101400 118900 115252 129 100 123600 Ripon 234051 212230 257210 228300 240 500 225 100 Romsey 189210 235488 319737 319500 309 500 290 500 Sebastopol Borough 40900 42900 65900 55500 59700 63900 Talbot and Clunes 90200 111 200 140800 145500 147600 122200 Tullaroop 142917 96300 136100 126400 134100 165 100 Total 3273055 3543518 4214647 4288200 4379853 4202300 Benalla Alexandra 294952 318222 378006 392239 403200 340 100 Beechworth 114700 119700 136800 136800 177 200 205 100 Benal1a City 96900 42400 28550 52400 51800 48100 Benalla Shire 200600 198820 263700 224055 249900 220400 Bri~t 170188 175330 276500 300 215 217400 173500 Chiltern 110900 122945 141400 132200 139000 122 100 Cobra m 161 600 174450 190300 184400 206 500 195400 Euroa 211 550 205037 236658 241400 259150 199700 Goulburn 171600 200 200 191242 214400 229000 240 300 Mansfield 301 605 299228 337790 331 360 379300 299700 Mynleford 87700 129700 113100 101 300 102600 99000 Oxley 316800 314900 355600 357700 434400 434700 Rutherglen 269310 200 800 193200 149 100 160200 147400 Seymour 153800 162500 237495 178000 174400 143000 Shepparton City 89700 98060 106200 114650 108700 128200 Shepparton Shire 231 600 291 863 366100 363200 306200 270770 Tal1angatta 206780 216070 238447 240 700 247200 316300 Tungamah 219500 220350 274 100 146400 139800 132400 Upper Murray 190 100 188000 208800 214200 229300 222500 Violet Town 157500 156380 166600 152400 198050 164700 Wangaratta City 152600 98400 86700 201 100 206 535 194500 Wangaratta Shire 282040 269565 286730 225900 265400 295800 Wodonga 490 500 353500 431 700 499776 364 600 569100 Questions on Notice 18 March 1986 COUNCIL 73

1980-81 1981-82 1982-83 1983-84 1984-85 1985-86 Final Final Final Final Final Final AI/oc. AI/oc. AI/oc. AI/oc. Alloc. AI/oc. Municipalit.v Unc/ass'd Unclass'd Unc/ass'd Unc/ass'd Unc/ass'd Unc/ass'd Division Total Total Total Total Total Total Yackandandah 157700 166100 182100 . 236400 263445 259700 Yarrawonga , 156500 165600 173200 173200 180100 208600 Yea 219700 231 lOO 274300 277 400 285800 260300 Total 5216425 5 119220 5875318 5840895 5979 180 5891 370 Bendigo Bendigo City 511 800 463800 508000 519395 517900 577 250 Bet Bet 169721 170500 174800 182417 231600 262700 Broadford 115950 124900 132700 135300 140 300 135200 Castlemaine City 127900 131 330 178900 317600 370570 165000 Charlton 180400 210400 243300 270 100 307400 268400 Cohuna 210200 229000 269800 277 000 285 100 281 100 Deakin 250400 264000 302 100 310800 317400 288800 Eaglehawk Borough 152000 159000 178900 183700 185400 184700 East Loddon 245800 266600 291 700 299200 312800 297000 EchucaCity 36500 41200 48650 59600 68000 68400 Gordon 296000 313500 393300 404 300 406500 467600 Huntly 195300 202500 268200 283000 288700 341 050 Kerang Borough 46610 110100 68600 63330 72100 67350 Kerang Shire 450221 427300 499000 501 600 484600 476500 Kilmore 171500 187700 222700 277 500 245400 270000 Korong 269200 280200 322400 363400 356500 401000 Kyabram Town 34600 29100 45300 40600 42500 42100 Maldon 185672 156200 175800 209900 237500 219080 Marong 357935 343825 363700 356 lOO 373 lOO 361000 McIvor 201 900 210 340 242300 247300 253700 235800 Metcalfe 252710 242040 251 500 273935 392 lOO 431100 Nathalia 225900 278800 298 100 353222 376400 388400 Numurkah 279600 302900 338700 459300 404 700 387200 Pyalong 141450 158600 182100 185200 198125 177 000 Rochester 251 200 266600 312700 320200 331 700 318100 Rodnelc 269400 283 lOO 331400 340 lOO 357567 338800 Strath eldsaye 259900 272 800 301 700 308500 319200 305500 Swan Hill City 119400 116900 147144 134700 120850 108 100 Swan Hill Shire 473500 430900 552 156 516750 544 800 488600 Waranga 232200 264 000 310015 333300 346933 313700 Total 6714869 6938 135 7955665 8527349 8889445 8666530 Dandenong Bass 147830 177700 207500 222720 226000 214000 Berwick City 138100 177 600 222800 102856 224000 169600 Chelsea City 55800 79600 176500 207600 70900 96300 Cranboume 278270 298600 330900 351 800 371 760 380700 Croydon City 250370 234400 309700 276900 313450 284200 Dandenong 206570 229200 276300 221 500 234300 239200 Doncaster and Templestowe 300 850 328400 536525 128760 511 190 489300 City Eltham 353430 383800 415 128 436800 400 500 418000 Ainders 298730 319100 353500 353800 376 100 363 100 Frankston City 88800 95000 143300 122 100 111 900 327050 French Island (Not Shire) 50330 31 550 40720 71 325 20200 20700 Hastings 303750 279400 315200 359600 279700 273700 Healesville 274050 293265 411 374 185600 187000 176500 Knox City 255867 263340 285800 307000 317700 307700 Lillydale 253210 301 980 343492 194995 516450 584900 Momington 181 820 194600 284700 206700 240800 225700 Nunawading City 333650 340638 405600 398300 399000 319700 Pakenham 360210 342100 380000 411444 416300 396100 Phillip Island 136520 158040 152600 168000 170500 162500 Ringwood City 227940 236562 279700 286400 292100 364300 Sherbrooke 220316 241420 263605 268200 521100 326100 Springvale City 225600 241400 311 600 522700 356800 681400 74 COUNCIL 18 March 1986 Questions on Notice

1980-81 1981-82 1982-83 1983-84 1984-85 1985-86 Final Final Final Final Final Final AI/oc. AI/oc. AI/oc. AI/oc. AlIoc. AI/oc. Municipality Unclass'd Unclass'd Unclass'd Unclass'd Unclass'd Unclass'd Division Total Total Total Total Total Total

Upper Yarra 173650 185200 211 600 235300 226 lOO 217000 Waverley City 371220 404 750 407 700 449 800 450200 704 250 Wonthaggi Borough 81 780 90700 97500 103600 107 100 99500

Total 5568663 5928345 7 163344 6 593 800 7341 150 7841 500

Geelong Bannockbum 151 700 163438 228272 217 300 230600 216800 Barraboul 280900 427890 243413 197 200 209700 196500 Bellarine 326700 351 lOO 377 110 565 lOO 578 100 447400 Colac City 102 700 92900 112900 101 900 282 300 93400 Colac Shire 248500 237800 264720 279 lOO 118000 280900 Corio 666396 544 107 655839 552800 576000 586900 Geelong City 145 300 144 700 1008511 117353 128 500 164 150 Geelong West City 57600 60800 79900 64700 59700 97700 Leigh 154300 226226 440851 190426 195400 183900 Newtown City 55600 54300 80 010 51900 56560 60500 Otway 167900 175200 217750 210 192 204 840 192 500 Queenscliffe Borough 20800 24600 20420 15 500 14600 22550 South Barwon City 290860 308 170 414350 350871 377 200 386800 Werribee 408700 515350 748657 844 200 590400 510 400 Winchelsea 256800 255 300 316520 261 300 280200 263 800

Total 3334756 3581 881 5209223 4019842 3902 lOO 3704 200

Horsham Arapalies 153000 191400 185514 205650 206 500 202 lOO Birchip 149400 154700 181 200 189 lOO 279900 230400 Dimboola 213 925 240 lOO 293800 266200 262 lOO 263900 Donald 160224 188600 210 900 220 lOO 230300 230900 Dunmunkle 199329 197900 258200 294900 279000 288 500 Horsham City 124200 120000 135 300 ."-' 141 lOO 143400 142600 Kaniva 193500 213200 237000 247400 257700 258900 Kara Kara 226900 220700 257800 313 000 338400 349200 Karkardoc 217 120 220388 237 185 224 500 239800 269673 Kowree 295860 248 700 290 lOO 302900 315 700 317200 Lowan 230117 234500 262700 228000 237 500 308400 Mildura City 108500 120600 142400 124600 142800 143000 Mildura Shire 393950 423400 500 400 457815 471 515 516400 St Amaud Town 48420 42800 47400 49500 51 500 48300 Stawell Shire 475325 482870 552 186 616300 588883 482000 Stawell Town 61 510 68 lOO 74850 77000 82670 80300 Walpeup 203 330 204 600 241 600 252400 281 lOO 268700 Warracknabeal 182600 216000 269900 231 300 241000 279700 WimmeraCL 218820 252400 272800 272 580 380800 282400 Wycheproof 225 300 235 500 275300 287200 305 300 300 500

Total 4081 330 4276458 4926535 5001 545 5334968 5263073

Metropolitan Altona City 39000 57600 73800 82400 116600 122730 Box Hill City 309400 339400 350000 267000 207000 218400 Brighton City 15000 37000 46000 20000 24000 169410 Broadmeadows City 329700 347915 484600 42467 287000 419400 Brunswick City 172 000 180000 267000 438000 447000 460400 Bulla 363910 421 200 480 500 429244 561 300 589 lOO Camberwell City 400 600 302000 458000 346000 356000 590 350 Caulfield City 226830 260000 412500 374826 819893 264700 Questions on Notice 18 March 1986 COUNCIL 75

1980-81 1981-82 1982-83 1983-84 1984-85 1985-86 Final Final Final Final Final Final AI/oc. AI/oc. Alloc. Alloc. Alloc. Alloc.

Municipality Unc/ass'd Unclass'd Unclass'd Unclass'd Unclass'd Unclass'd Division Total Total Total Total Total Total

CoburgCity 297700 305000 345000 355000 450600 378900 Collingwood City 74900 75520 102600 90888 96600 87400 Diamond Valley 564300 674010 632730 485290 567075 465 200 Essendon City 219800 219400 223616 212700 283225 210800 FitzroyCi~ 82500 132000 138600 152 lOO 255200 210 750 Footscray ity 983300 697000 622000 438600 384000 344 300 Hawthorn City 310800 345600 521 700 372 600 465 lOO 473 500 Heidelberg City 338300 377 000 396500 385000 397 lOO 304 200 KeilorCity 929602 1026 101 1272 077 650300 907 500 813 500 KewCity 453340 350040 536354 465829 373700 236250 MalvernCi~ 281 700 331000 391 329 398000 366 300 422350 Melbourne ity 753377 757075 1314700 1287593 346300 316400 Melton 510200 558500 487900 388000 412000 433050 Moorabbin City 198400 228000 259950 256000 196000 407350 Mordialloc City 39500 89 300 250000 203700 213500 219600 Northcote City 166700 184000 282000 250000 254000 464350 Oakleigh City 332500 283350 410000 725000 926 500 722 700 Port Melbourne City 122790 87280 137 100 87834 286000 291 lOO Prahran City 559212 269500 325000 289000 362600 545380 Preston City 303330 230320 300 114 239800 143000 382060 Richmond Ci~ 336850 377 765 579500 463 132 525300 677 600 Sandringham ity 0 48000 64000 28000 50300 132700 Sth Melbourne City 140528 167570 208311 154646 191 397 170500 St Kilda City 133800 99500 106800 30500 92000 81450 Sunshine City 1 335500 811500 893982 199300 297400 484820 Whittlesea 515085 568590 555570 642010 649200 681000 Williamstown City 159000 166000 350000 196000 354000 299300 Total 11 999454 11404 036 14279833 11 446759 12664690 13 091 000 Traralgon. Albenon 341140 339915 373408 439200 412700 435000 Buln Buln 326500 354600 331600 450650 397900 602000 Korumburra 310000 344700 384900 386744 407600 401450 Mirboo 151000 120650 104 lOO 95400 107 100 103850 MoeCity 145000 153600 168300 188900 193700 180200 Morwell 817 199 896491 794333 527080 478600 448 500 Narracan 359455 341040 471 715 523866 484480 470200 Rosedale 348042 363254 437523 349000 374000 430600 South Gippsland 416280 420879 753667 455021 430490 431 800 Traralgon City 190 900 179000 253971 190500 251 800 214700 Traralgon Shire 472 000 300 740 470200 604 145 356500 361 900 Warragul 329900 282300 311000 371 900 370600 391400 Woorayl 290693 337905 402205 402720 402400 404 700 Yallourn (SEC) 0 0 0 0 0 0 Total 4498 109 4435074 5256922 4985 126 4667870 4876300 Warmambool Belfast 119400 120800 120000 126200 134400 130900 Camperdown Town 52 300 55400 65500 67600 71 700 68850 Dundas 382350 423 170 505000 513800 609400 589300 Olenelg 341 800 358700 434600 465300 458600 490700 Hamilton City 105652 110600 122800 129200 135600 128850 Hampden 353500 376700 467 110 511 lOO 501200 485700 Heytesbury 481 346 532649 514631 501 842 508600 518500 Koroit Borough 42 100 39630 49830 47400 50500 48600 Minhamite 202900 391 750 422090 258600 274700 257700 Monlake 332960 364220 423500 445281 463300 418500 Mt Rouse 184160 213300 228000 266 SOO 267900 260800 Port Fairy Borough 83560 69200 52400 51 500 59050 51800 Portland Shire 759383 698 179 865756 961 275 577 500 658864 76 COUNCIL 18 March 1986 Questions on Notice

1980-81 1981-82 1982-83 1983-84 1984-85 1985-86 Final Final Final Final Final Final AI/oc. AI/oc. AI/oc. AI/oc. Alloc. AI/oc.

Municipality Unclass'd Unclass'd Unclass'd Unclass'd Unclass'd Unclass'd Division Total Total Total Total Total Total

Portland Town 264280 219750 170990 752300 252500 265900 Wannon 265200 301970 362800 376900 399500 437700 Warrnambool City 170400 227671 202100 293500 302400 218600 Warrnambool Shire 343650 391 780 494050 472200 506200 495600 Total 4484941 4895469 5501 157 6240 798 5573050 5526864 GRAND TOTAL 51 679798 52854098 63489551 60169853 62096556 62313 637

The allocations quoted in this report do not include allocations made from ABRD funds, traffic facility funds or natural disaster relief grants. The allocations quoted do include special impact work allocations as requested as well as all other special allocations made to unclassified roads within the stated period. Also included are the additional AL TP allocations that either have been or are about to be made. Questions without Notice 19 March 1986 COUNCIL 77

Wednesday, 19 March 1986

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. A. Mackenzie) took the chair at 11.3 a.m. and read the prayer.

QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

ACCIDENTS INVOLVING GOVERNMENT VEHICLES The Hon. N. B. REID (Bendigo Province)-Will the Minister for Health advise how many Health Department Victoria vehicles or departmental vehicles under his control were involved in the 38 accidents involving Government vehicles which occurred during July and August 1985 when those vehicles were unregistered and uninsured due to the incompetence and neglect of Ministers who did not pay their bills? How many people were injured in those accidents and what was the extent of their injuries? The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Health)-In response to the shadow Minister-in­ waiting, whom the Opposition has been unable to move to the back benches, I indicate that the period in which he has served in Parliament now amounts to ten years, and yet he is unable to distinguish between a question on notice and a question without notice. I inform him, as I inform the House, that the matter will be treated as a question on notice. CABINET SUB-COMMITTEE ON RURAL AFFAIRS The Hon. B. P. DUNN (North Western Province)-I ask the Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs to inform the House of the Ministers who constitute the Cabinet sub­ committee on agriculture; if the sub-committee meets on a regular basis; if minutes are kept of any meetings; the sub-committee's charter and responsibilities and what power of veto the Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs has through the sub-committees over decisions of other Ministers affecting primary producers. The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs)-The correct name of the sub-committee is the Cabinet Sub-committee on Rural Affairs. The sub­ committee was established at the end of last year as a function of Cabinet. It meets regularly, as do other Cabinet sub-committee, and reports through its chairman, myself, to Cabinet. Minutes are kept of these meetings so that Cabinet can know what the sub­ committee has been doin~ and the work it is addressing. Its character is bound up with the Government's objective m dealing with its rural affairs initiatives as outlined at the last election. The sub-committee comprises six Ministers; myself as chairman, Mr Jolly as Treasurer, Mrs Kirner as Minister for Conservation, Forests and Lands, Mrs Hogg as Minister for Community Services, Mr McCutcheon as Minister for Water Resources and Minister for Property and Services and Mr Mathews as Minister for Police and Emergency Services. I do not understand the honourable member's question in regard to veto. I believe he is asking if the Minister for A~culture and Rural Affairs has some capacity to veto decisions made by other Ministers m their own right as it affects the Cabinet. That is clearly a question one would have to answer in the negative. Ministers come in their own right to Cabinet with full responsibility for their own portfolios. The Question is misdirected. The Question of veto does not enter into it. The work is done on a co-operative basis and it is clear that the procedure ought to have been put into effect years ago by a string of conservative Governments who claimed to understand country Victoria, but who did nothing to organize business on an official basis. The sub-committee is a great initiative of the Government and works well. I hope Mr Dunn continues to ask Questions about the sub-committee and rural affairs generally 78 COUNCIL 19 March 1986 Questions without Notice because considerable action ofa positive kind will take place this year, I also hope he has the courage to admit these matters in the months to come as he was able to acknowledge the work that the Government did in the wheat crisis in the Mallee. PSYCHIATRIC SERVICES The Hon. M. A. LYSTER (Chelsea Province)-The question I direct to the Minister for Health relates to the provision of psychiatric services in health region No. 8 and in particular for the Frankston and Mornington Peninsula area. Can the Minister inform the House what plans he may have for the development of psychiatric services to meet the needs of the people of this region? The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Health)-It is well known that, historically, psychiatric institutions have been located in the north-eastern metropolitan areas of Melbourne. The needs of the inner southern metropolitan areas will be initially addressed by the development of a comprehensive psychiatric hospital at Heatherton Hospital, accompanied by appropriate community-based support programs. In addition to that, it is proposed that specialist child psychiatric services will be provided in conjunction with the Queen Victoria Medical Centre from its new location in Clayton. Another area of need the Government recognizes is for psychogeriatric services and the Health Department Victoria is currently considering this in conjunction with the Mount Eliza Geriatric Centre and also in the deliberations over the placement of people who are currently at Willsmere. I am pleased to advise that I have approved a feasibility study ofa needs-based psychiatric services plan for the Frankston-Mornington area. Initially it would include an acute in-patient and psychiatric assessment service at Frankston Hospital to~ether with a string of out-patient day hospital and community support programs. ThIS is in line with the philosophy of developing a wide range of community-based and acceptable programs for psychiatrically disabled persons. ESMOND MOOSEEK The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN (Western Province)-Is the Attorney-General aware that Esmond Mooseek, who absconded while on $50 000 bail for importing $25 million of heroin, had transferred the full or part ownership of three homes to his wife prior to his absconding overseas? Has the Attorney-General investigated whether those properties are liable to be forfeited as representing the proceeds of drug sales? The Hon. J. H. KENNAN (Attorney-General)-No doubt these matters are the responsibility of the Police Force for investigation, and ultimately if they come back before the courts they will be dealt with there. CABINET SUB-COMMITTEE ON RURAL AFFAIRS The Hon. W. R. BAXTER (North Eastern Province)-My question is directed to the Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs and it concerns the Cabinet Sub-committee on Rural Affairs, which the Minister dealt with in response to a question from my Leader. I remind the Minister of his comments on ABC radio on 3 March 1986 when he said that all initiatives being taken by the Government are discussed clearly between Ministers and co-ordinated principally by himself. The Minister remarked to Mr Dunn a moment ago that the committee has no power of veto. Will the honourable gentleman indicate whether the sub-committee is anything more than a morning coffee discussion group? If so, why did it not have some influence in preventing the unnecessary 6 per cent hike in rail freights that was imposed on grain Questions without Notice 19 March 1986 COUNCIL 79 growers in this State when they were under severe financial difficulties, and why did it not remove from the Grain Elevators Board the public authority dividend tax, which the board has said publicly is a most significant factor in its having had to increase grain handling charges last season? The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs)-I am not sure whether the question is about a rural affairs sub-committee or whether it is a piggyback question dealing with grain freight rates. The function of Cabinet clearly includes the functioning of certain sub-committees of Cabinet. In this case there are very few. Rural affairs is a recent addition to what was a total of four sub-committees of Cabinet. The authority of Cabinet is not in any way compromised by the use of sub-committees. Decisions of Cabinet, of course, are made by Cabinet as a whole. Sub-committees undertake certain work on behalf of Cabinet and these reports go to Cabinet for determination. That is a proper way of functioning. The notion of veto is out of court. In no way would a Cabinet sub-committee have a veto over the proper responsibilities of particular Ministers. In any case, the Government administers Government policy at large, and I think that has to be the answer to Mr Baxter's question. If he is being mischievous beyond that, perhaps he should ask the question in a different manner. If he wants to know how a sub-committee functions he should understand that sub-committees function in Cabinet as they do anywhere else. The authority lies with Cabinet; the sub-committee advises Cabinet. HALLEY'S COMET The Hon. B. A. MURPHY (Gippsland Province )-Honourable members are aware that Australia is subject to worldwide attention from the media and from researchers and others interested in astronomy and in what is happening in the skies, as for the first time in 76 years Halley's comet has returned. I ask the Minister for Conservation, Forests and Lands what special steps she has taken to ensure that Victorians have the best viewing arrangements to enable them to observe the comet? The Hon. J. E. KIRNER (Minister for Conservation, Forests and Lands)-I wish to thank the honourable member for his question and obvious interest in cosmic affairs, particularly in Gippsland. I am sure Halley's comet, Murphy's law and Murphy's questions will become part of the heritage of this place! At the same time, I have been in touch with ~~Her," and "She" suggests that, although it is not possible to provide Halley's comet during the daytime for better viewing, the role of the Department of Conservation, Forests and Lands can be changed in the area of fuel reduction burning to ensure that the skies of Melbourne, even though they may be polluted by industrial smog, will not be polluted by smoke from fuel reduction burning. People from the north-east of the State and people in Melbourne are concerned that air pollutIOn may affect their view of the comet. The airsheds near Melbourne and in the north-east of the State are particularly prone to air inversions at this time of the year, such as honourable members might have noticed this mornin$,. My department normally carries out fuel reduction burning from now until mid Apnl, but I have asked that fuel reduction burning be rescheduled until after mid April to ensure that people will have a good view of the comet. However, I assure Parliament that I am not resiling from our fire protection policy on fuel reduction burning. It will simply be rescheduled. PROPOSED HOMOSEXUAL BROTHEL The Hon. ROSEMARY VARTY (Nunawading Province)-Will the Minister for Planning and Environment clarify for the House whether he regards the possible establishment of a homosexual brothel as raising a matter of major public policy? 80 COUNCIL 19 March 1986 Questions without Notice

The Hon. J. H. KENNAN (Minister for Planning and Environment)-We had the Question yesterday. The Hon. B. A. Chamberlain-It was a different Question. The-Hon. J. H. KENNAN-However, I am happy to answer it again. Mr Hunt, who does not seem to be here today, thought it was a good idea for the Opposition to start on his first Question for the new session by applying blowtorch to the belly tactics by asking this miserable Question yesterday. It says a lot for the way in which the Liberal Party has descended into the pits. The Liberal Party decriminalized homosexual activity in a cheap political move. It says a lot for Mr Hunt's and the Liberal Party's horizons in this place that, having been urged on, I suppose, by a larger red neck element these days on the Opposition benches, it now wants to raise this issue and politicize it again. As I said when the matter was raised yesterday, I will not have a bar of it. ROYAL MELBOURNE HOSPITAL BOARD APPOINTMENTS The Hon. M. J. ARNOLD (Templestowe Province)-Is the Attorney-General aware of comments made by Mr Birrell and reported in the Sun today regarding appointments to the board of the Royal Melbourne Hospital, and especially the appointment ofMr Michael Black, QC! The Hon. M. A. Birrell-It was the Age. The Hon. M. J. ARNOLD-Is the Attorney-General concerned at Mr Birrell's comments about Mr Black that reflect on a senior distinguished Queen's Counsel in this State? The Hon. J. H. KENNAN (Attorney-General)-I am again disappointed at the way in which the Liberal Party is demeaning the institution of Parliament by seeking, in a cheap way, to attack a matter of Government administration. Apparently Mr Birrell is so lacking in an understanding of the basis of an independent legal profession that he thinks a person is to be coloured by reason of the briefs he has accepted. In the 1920s the late Sir Robert Menzies appeared for a great number of trade unions, but no one su~ested by reason of that that he was a Labor supporter or a trade unionist. Mr Tom Hughes, QC, IS currently appearing in the New South Wales Supreme Court for Mr Neville Wran. No one suggests that that is to colour Mr Hughes. If the New South Wales Government appointed Mr Hughes to a hospital board, no one would have the audacity to suggest that it was a political appointment. The Hon. M. A. Birrell-Next you will be saying that Murphy is a Liberal! The Hon. J. H. KENNAN-Mr Birrell seems to think it appropriate to attack an individual for having accepted briefs in respect of political matters. Mr Birrell ought to understand, and members of this increasingly redneck Opposition ought to understand, that it is absolutely fundamental in a free society that the -legal profession take briefs on a first cab-off-the-rank basis and, in criminal cases, a person who appears for a person charged with murder is not to be thought to be a murderer or supportive of crime. Mr Birrell has made an attack on the appointment of one of the most eminent barristers in the country as a political appointment on the basis that the barrister has taken briefs in Labor Party matters. That attack is outrageous. Mr Black is one of the most highly regarded barristers in this country; he is regarded at the Victorian Bar as an absolutely outstanding advocate, a man with a cultivated mind and a man with a most persuasive tongue. He is regarded as one of the best Queen's Counsels ever to appear before the High Court in this country. He is a man whom the Bar itself has chosen to run for the past three years the introductory training courses for barristers, the Bar readers' course. That is the pedestal on which his peers put him and what does the Opposition seek to do? It is seeking Questions without Notice 19 March 1986 COUNCIL 81 to demean him and politicize the appointment-an outstanding appointment, which is unquestionably in the community interest. F or the Minister for Health to be able to attract a person of this quality to a major hospital board is to be regarded as a coup. What does the Government get from the Opposition? It gets a mean, sleazy attack on this man of outstanding integrity, a seedy attack following the sort of nonsense that Mr Hunt went on with yesterday, which undermines and misunderstands, firstly, the basis on which our legal system is built and, secondly, the fact that this appointment is an outstanding one. I apologize on behalf of Parliament to Mr Black for the way in which the Liberal Party is behaving in this matter. I feel very sorry. It is a great deterrent that there are people in Parliament who behave in this way, because what other decent person out there would want to become involved in community or public life when they know that someone from the shadows will come out with this sort of cheap, irrelevant and dishonest smear? PUBLIC TRUSTEE The Hon. HADDON STOREY (East Yarra Province)-I refer the Attorney-General to the question I asked yesterday about the former Public Trustee, Mr Spencer, to which the Attorney-General answered that Mr Spencer had a senior position in some other department. Will the Attorney-General confirm that Mr Spencer is on the unattached list, attached to the Public Service Board for special duties or is he in some other position and what is that position? The Hon. J. H. KENNAN (Attorney-General)-As I indicated yesterday, Mr Spencer is carrying out valuable services in another department, the Department of Property and Services. FUNDING OF FIRE SERVICES The Hon. D. M. EVANS (North Eastern Province)-I refer the Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs to the suggestion by him that the Cabinet sub-committee on rural affairs, which has some influence over the decisions of other Government Ministers in relation to matters affectin~ primary producers-I note the Minister for Police and Emergency Services, accordlng to information given to the House this morning by the Minister, is a member of that sub-committee-and I ask: What action can and will the sub-committee and the Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs be taking to ensure that any changes in the formula for the funding of fire services will not impose a rating system that singles out Victorian farmers for harsh, adverse or inequitable treatment? The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs)-I have already stated this but I will say again that the C'4binet rural affairs sub-committee advises Cabinet on all matters relevant to the welfare of all people in rural areas. CONDITIONS FOR WOMEN PRISONERS The Hon. JEAN McLEAN (Boronia Province)-I ask the Attorney-General whether, given the highly unsatisfactory conditions for women prisoners at Pentridge Prison, he can advise the House of what plans he has to ensure that all women prisoners will be removed from that establishment? The Hon. J. H. KENNAN (Attorney-General)-I thank Mrs McLean for her keen interest in penal reform. It is noted that members of the Government are addressing themselves to the real issues rather than making personal attacks on people outside Parliament. The Government has approved in principle and provided funding for the establishment of a low security women's prison facility. That is necessary because, as I have indicated publicly, the number of women in Victoria's prisons now exceeds the number that can be 82 COUNCIL 19 March 1986 Petitions accommodated at the new Fairlea Female Prison. When the new wall is completed, the prison will accommodate approximately 86 prisoners. For more than six to eight months, there have been 95 to 115 women prisoners in this State. In order to remove all the women prisoners from "B" annexe at Pentridge Prison, which is an unsatisfactory facility, it is necessary to establish a low security facility, the site of which is yet to be determined. That facility will accommodate fifteen to twenty prisoners, so that all the women can be accommodated at Fairlea or at the new low security institution. Therefore, women will no longer be held in "B" annexe at Pentridge Prison. The Government has approved the expenditure of$1 million for the renovation of"D" and "P' divisions at Pentrid~e Prison, which will be the most major prison reform at that complex this century. In addition, the unsatisfactory dormitories and the disgraceful eight yards in "D" division will be pulled down. Mr Chamberlain may be interested to know that $500 000 has been allocated for a new ablution block at Beechworth Prison. I welcome Mr Chamberlain's interest in that issue. The ablution facilities at Beechworth have been poor. The cells are not yet being sewered, but other alternatives have been taken to buckets with lids. PETITIONS Woodchipping, Otway Ranges The Hon. D. E. HENSHAW (Geelong Province) presented a petition from certain citizens of Victoria praying for the preservation offorests and the banning of wood chipping and clear felling in the Otway Ranges. He stated that the petition was respectfully worded, in order, and bore 468 signatures. It was ordered that the petition be laid on the table. Eltham Cemetery Trust The Hon. M. J. ARNOLD (Templestowe Province) presented a petition from certain citizens of Victoria prayin$ that the Eltham Cemetery Trust be not allowed to expand into and use the land immediately below Montsalvat, that the permanent reservation for cemetery use be removed and the land be offered for sale to the Montsalvat Trust, and an alternative site be found to accommodate the long-term needs of the cemetery trust. He stated that the petition was respectfully worded, in order, and bore 1883 signatures. It was ordered that the petition be laid on the table. LEGAL AND CONSTITUTIONAL COMMITTEE Australian Constitutional Convention The Hon. HADDON STOREY (East Yarra Province) presented the second report from the Legal and Constitutional Committee on the Australian Constitutional Convention­ an assessment of the 1985 Brisbane plenary session, the convention generally and its future, together with an appendix. The Hon. HADDON STOREY (East Yarra Province)-I move: That these papers do lie on the table and be printed. This is a report which deals with the events of the Australian Constitutional Convention that was held last year. In presenting this report, I indicate that the committee is the first body that has senously considered the work of the convention and whether it should continue, and its continuance is under threat at present. I urge honourable members to read the report, because if they do, they will find that the committee has analysed the work of the convention and has demonstrated that the Papers 19 March 1986 COUNCIL 83 convention has done an essential service in advancing the cause of constitutional reform in this country. I hope the committee will continue with that work. The motion was agreed to. PAPERS The following papers, pursuant to the directions of several Acts of Parliament, were laid on the table by the Clerk: Motor Accidents Board-Report for the year 1984-85. Ombudsman-Report for the year 1984-85. Town and Country Planning Act 1961- Geelong Regional Planning Scheme-Amendment No. 104, 1984. Melbourne Metropolitan Planning Scheme-Amendments No. 317, Part 2 (with two maps); No. 377 (with map); No. 389 (with map); and No. 395. Rosedale-Shire of Rosedale Planning Scheme-Amendment No. 45. On the motion of the Hon. HADDON STOREY (East Yarra Province), it was ordered that the reports tabled by the Clerk be taken into consideration on the next day of meeting. RESIDENTIAL TENANCIES BILL The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN (Western Province)-I move: That this House calls upon the Government to bring the Residential Tenancies Bill on for consideration by the Council without further delay, in order to resolve the present uncertainties and their adverse effects on the availability of rental accommodation. It is quite clear that the Government finds Parliament an inconvenience. It has been four months since the House last sat, and it is clear that the Government wishes that it were not sittin$ on this occasion, because it does not like scrutiny of its actions-or lack of actionS-Its secrecy, its audacious deals, its jobs for the boys and girls and its gross mismanagement of the State. Therefore, the Government finds Parliament an inconvenience. On 12 November last, Mr Fordham, the Deputy Premier, stood up in the Legislative Assembly and moved that the Residential TenanCIes Bill be treated as an urgent Bill. On that occasion he said that the Bill was a matter that Parliament should consider as a matter of urgency, and the Legislative Assembly voted accordingly. That occurred 127 days ago; a third ofa year ago, the Government declared the Residential Tenancies Bill to be urgent legislation in the Assembly, and the Opposition agrees with that. It agrees that the matter is urgent and that it should be dealt with. The Opposition is ready to debate the Bill today, as is the National Party. However, yesterday, when the Attorney-General was asked by me whether the Government would bring on this most important piece of proposed legislation for debate, he said that it would bring on that debate when it had an assurance that the Opposition and the National Party would pass it. That is typical of the arrogance of the Attorney­ General, who regards Parliament and its institutions as a rubber stamp for the Executive Government. That is demagoguery and arrogance in the extreme, but an arrogance one has come to expect from this man. The criteria of the Government is that it will bring on for debate only those measures on which it has an assurance that the opposition parties will pass. When one looks at the Notice Paper one should not be surprised at that attitude because other pieces of proposed legislation have been on the Notice Paper for months. They include important measures such as the National Parks (Alpine National Park) Bill, which deals with a central issue raised during the Nunawading by-election campaign that occurred 84 COUNCIL 19 March 1986 Residential Tenancies Bill in the middle of last year, and the Transport (Victorian Ports Authority) Bill, which has been on the Notice Paper for several months. Returning to my initial point, 127 days ago in the Legislative Assembly the Government declared that debate on the Residential Tenancies Bill had to be expedited and the Bill forwarded to the Legislative Council because it was an urgent Bill. The purpose of the motion is to indicate the damage the Government's inaction is causing in the rental housing market. The Government has an obligation to bring these matters to a head and to bring the Residential Tenancies Bill on for debate. There is doubt in the market-place. Residential properties are being sold to occupiers and those that are sold are no longer available for those seeking rental accommodation. There is an extreme shortage of private rental accommodation, and a vacancy rate of residential accommodation of less than 2 per cent. A massive escalation in the demand for rental accommodation is predicted. To put this matter in perspective, one must realize that the private rental market is important to Victorians as one-third of Victorians, either by choice or through economic necessity, require rented premises. That may be because they are engaged in movable occupations and, therefore, they are unable to place their roots in one place, or it may be because they are unable to raise the money to buy a property. One-third of Victorians rely on the rental market and 84 per cent of those people rely on the private rental market. A relatively small proportion are looking for assistance or rely on assistance from the public sector. It is clear from those figures that legislation which impacts on the private rental market is a matter of concern and interest. Last November almost 28000 families in Victoria were seekin~ public rental accommodation. That figure had increased from 16 000 two years earlier In June 1983. In the intervening two years, 12 000 additional people were placed on the waiting list for public housing. Obviously, any disturbances in the private rental market will exacerbate that problem. I t can justifiably be said that part of the increase of 12 000 in demand for public housing in those two years is due to uncertainty in the market-place about the Government's intentions to proceed with legislation dealing with residential accommodation. What factors influence that availability of residential rental accommodation? The cost of money is an important issue and Commonwealth taxation policies are also important. In addition, legislative control is a factor which, added to the other factors, dictates the supply of rental housing stock. A report of the Community Committee on Tenancy Law Reform 1978, entitled, "Reforming Victoria's Tenancy Laws", which was funded by the former Attorney-General, the Honourable Haddon Storey, identifies the need to achieve a fine balance in le~slation so as not to drive private investors out of the rental market. I shall di$fess slIghtly to indicate that the report is an excellent document and the best of its type In presentation. The groups who put together the document were well aware of the pOints that I put to the House earlier. The report provided the figures I used that indicated the numbers in our community who rely on this private market for their accommodation. On page 12 of the report, under the heading "Tenancy law and the rental market", the committee spells this out: The implications of these policy issues for tenancy law can be summed up this way: 1. The law should recognize and encourage the role ofthe private market where the private market can supply rental housing of an acceptable social standard and does not conflict with the housing rights of individuals. 2. Where the private market does meet these requirements, then the function of the law should be regulatory rather than structural intervention. That is, it should not attempt to change the structure or operation of the rental market, but merely ensure that it works fairly. We would classify laws as regulatory when they aimed to Residential Tenancies Bill 19 March 1986 COUNCIL 85 protect the basic rights of the parties-the reasonable housing and consumer rights of the tenant, and the reasonable property and investment rights of the landlord-and to provide a fair framework of rules within which tenancy transactions could be conducted and disputes resolved. All honourable members should agree with that proposition, but unfortunately the people who advise the Government on these issues do not agree with it. Those people are committed to the destruction of the private rental market and getting rid of the little capitalists who own a second house or flat that is made available for rental accommodation. Clearly the ideology behind the thinking of these people, Mr Salvaris and his mates, is to have the proposed legislation passed. The Residential Tenancies Bill was promised by the Labor Party when it came into power in 1982; four years later in 1986 one sees the dreams of those socialist demagogues coming together. Those people hate the private rental market and the concept of private ownership of rental stock. They are causing enormous damage to the very tenants they think they are looking after. They are not working in the interests of the tenants; they are working against the interests of those tenants by drying up the supply of rental stock and forcing up the cost of accommodation. Once again I draw attention to the factors that influence the availability of rental accommodation and affect supply. The first factor is the cost of money. High interest rates are the major negative factor in the development of new housing accommodation. Honourable members must realize that real interest rates are at their highest level ever­ by real interest rates I mean the rate of interest over and above the rate of inflation-with interest rates of the order of 18 per cent, inflation of the order of 8 per cent and a real rate of interest of 10 per cent at present. Even in the heady days of the former Labor Prime Minister, Gough Whitlam, when the inflation rate rose to 18 per cent, interest rates were of the order of only 12 per cent; therefore, the interest rates were negative. Historically we now have the highest interest rates, in a real sense, that this country has ever known and this is the major factor affecting the supply of rental accommodation. In discussions I have had with estate agents whom I meet, they point out the number of development proposals that they put together which fall to the ground when the interest component is brought in. The second factor workin, against the supply of this desperately needed accommodation is the Federal Government s taxation move to disallow negative gearing and that is the ability to offset rental losses against income. The need for rental accommodation was borne out in the figures I quoted earlier. There are almost 30000 families in Victoria on the waiting list for public accommodation. The Federal Government is not concerned about Mr Holmes a Court's negative gearing because he will be extremely well geared negatively for his current takeover attempt of Broken Hill Proprietary Co. Ltd. However, that choice is no longer possible for people who own rental accommodation. People who were becoming involved in the rental market by borrowing a large amount of money and then offsetting their income earnings a~inst expenses have lost that ability. Therefore, people who want to become involved In the market cannot do so. The third issue which is movin~ against rental supply is the Bill now before Parliament. The proposed legislation is perceIved by landlords to be stacked against them. However, is it stacked against landlords? That is the issue honourable members should now be debating and I have moved the motion so that those issues can be faced. Why not bring the Bill before the House so that all factors can be examined? If the Government is interested in the plight of tenants, surely the fact that the rental market is drying up and that rents are increasing should be an issue debated in this forum. However, the Government, in the arrogant words of the Attorney-General, has said that it will not debate the issue until it has a guarantee that the Opposition will pass the measure. In the Herald of 3 January, Mr Chris Lang, of K. Gardner and Lang Pty Ltd, predicted that, in light of this tight market, rentals of residences this year will increase by 86 COUNCIL 19 March 1986 Residential Tenancies Bill

$50 a week. He referred to the factors I mentioned earlier and estimated that the middle level of rental accommodation would increase by $50 a week. The occupancy rate is at 1·9 per cent, which is considerably less than the level the industry believes is healthy. The industry believes 3 per cent is a healthy balance between the availability of accommodation and those people seeking it. That level has now dropped to 1·9 per cent, which is half of what it was in 1980. There is an increasing demand for rental accommodation and the stock is depleting; therefore, because of supply and demand, rentals this year will increase by $50 a week. Investors are now taking the easy way out. Submissions to members of Parliament from the Tenants Union of Victoria point out that 10 000 units previously available in the St Kilda area for rental have been converted into strata titles and sold. Landlords are no longer interested in taking the risk because the returns are not there. Sales to tenants are increasing and less stock will be available for the 33 per cent of people who require rental accommodation. In the current situation no new rental accommodation will be created. Why should landlords create new accommodation? They can buy units in well-managed property trusts that have invested in commercial areas and can receive at least a 9 per cent return. They have a capital appreciation and partly tax-free returns, so why should they take the risk with some dubious proposed legislation on private rental accommodation to be introduced in Victoria? An agent quoted in the property guide of the Australian of 15 February said that in her case, they had 200 properties listed, and would normally have fifteen properties available for rental but actually had only three. That gives honourable members an idea of what is happening in the market-place: the cost of rental is increasing as the availability of accommodation decreases. At present Victoria is experiencing the combined effect of the massive interest rates of anything up to 20 per cent imposed by Messrs Hawke and Keating; the changes to taxation; and a negative influence by the introduction of a Bill that is perceived by landlords to be against their interests. The Hon. W. R. Baxter-And no doubt could be! The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN-Those issues must be debated and I do not want to prejudge them. The Bill has been allowed to languish in this House for months, yet 127 days ago the Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources told the Legislative Assembly that the matter was urgent. I agree that it is urgent and the issue should be debated today. The Hon. W. R. BAXTER (North Eastern Province)-I support Mr Chamberlain's motion because I believe the failure of the Government to debate the Bill in this House after it declared it an urgent Bill and then curtailed debate on it in another place once again demonstrates the hypocrisy of the Government. The Government was not prepared in another place fully to debate all the provisions in the Bill. The Bill has since come into this House and languished on the Notice Paper for 127 days. That has caused an enormous amount of uncertainty and concern, especially among those persons who have traditionally provided rental accommodation in our community. Those people are not the big business people nor the so-called wealthy capitalists; they are the little people of this community, the husband and wife team, the people who have tried to provide a nest egg for their retirement by building rental accommodation in, say, the form of a block of flats or by buying a second house and making it available under reasonable terms and conditions in the rental market. Those people have been frightened off completely by the prospect of the provisions of the Bill. I concur with Mr Chamberlain in his plea to the Government and to this House to allow the Bill to be debated and to clear the air once and for all as to whether the Bill will be passed in its present form, in an amended form or will be dispensed with completely. Residential Tenancies Bill 19 March 1986 COUNCIL 87

For the Bill to hang like a sword over the heads of people who have traditionally invested in rental accommodation is having an adverse effect upon the very people whom the Labor Party professes to defend and support. They are the so-called disadvantaged in the community, the low-income earners, those who need, for one reason or another, to have rental accommodation provided for them. They are the people who are being penalized by the Government's refusal to bring the Bill on for debate. The building of units for rental accommodation is in limbo because traditional investors are not prepared to get on with the job until they know where they stand. As Mr Chamberlain has indicated, the cost of rents in this State is rising dramatically. It is rising at a faster rate than the consumer price index, simply because demand is outstripping supply. The supply is drying up for a number of reasons, but one of the main reasons is that this Bill is languishing on the Notice Paper and no decision is being made one way or the other. I agree with Mr Chamberlain that people are reluctant to invest in the rental accommodation market at the moment for other reasons. That is largely the fault of the Government's Federal colleagues, who have outlawed negative gearing. In my view, negative gearing is a legitimate business expense. A person involved in building rental accommodation is conducting a business and it should be within that person's capacity to borrow money to build those premises and the interest incurred in that borrowing should be a legitimate expense of that business. However, Mr Hawke and Mr Keating have ruled that out of order. They have also introduced a capital gains tax that has further frightened investors from the rental market. Another reason is the record real interest rates that apply today. Never before has this nation suffered such a high level of interest with people borrowing money on overdraft at more than 20 per cent. It is high time that the House was given the opportunity of debating the Bill, because its delay is one of the significant factors in the drying up of the availability of rental accommodation in this State. I do not wish to canvass the provisions of the Bill because that is not appropriate to this motion; it is more appropriate to the second-reading debate, if the House ever gets a chance to move to that stage. I express my concern that one of the most depressing aspects of~y job as a member of Parliament is the constant succession of people into my electorate office in Wodonga with housing problems. The housing problems, probably five to one, far outstretch any other issue raised with me. There is at least a two-year wait on Ministry of Housing accommodation in the electorate I represent and I know that it is even longer in the metropolitan area and, therefore, persons are forced into the private rental market. They go around every real estate agent in constant succession; they read advertisements when the newspaper comes out, whether it is daily or weekly, for the local area; they ring up their real estate agent who might have an advertisement In the paper-and there are very few appearing now-only to nnd that it has already been rented to someone else because the demand is so great. There is nothing much that I can do to assist these people other than to listen to their difficulties and give them the best advice I can and, as I said earlier, it is one of the most depressing aspects of my job at the moment; it has been for the past six or eight months and it is worsening because of this drying up of rental accommodation. The other issue about which I express my concern is the apparent use of taxpayers' funds by a number of so-called wealthy organizations in Victoria. They are using these funds not to assist the disadvantaged people they claim to represent, but to lobby members of Parliament on the Residential Tenancies Bill. I do not object to being lobbied-I am lobbied every day by numerous interest groups on a range of issues and I expect that as a Parliamentarian-but I object to having taxpayers' funds used to lobby me. 88 COUNCIL 19 March 1986 Residential Tenancies Bill

I will cite a couple of examples: on 19 November last year, I received a telegram from a Community Youth Support Scheme in the electorate I represent. I know that this scheme uses Federal funds and not State funds, but they are still taxpayers funds. The telegram was urging me to support the Residential Tenancies Bill which was then being debated as an urgent Bill in another place. On 6 December I replied to that telegram and said I was interested in the comments made in their telegram, but that the Government had not presented the Bill to the Legislative Council and, therefore, I had not had a chance to engage in the debate. I continued by saying that, nevertheless, so that I could take full account of the organization's desires and opinions on the Bill, perhaps it could forward to me an extract from the minutes of the meeting where the resolution was passed to send telegrams to local members. Strangely, I have not received a reply to that letter yet, but the organization wrote to me on other matters on 4 March inviting me to its annual meeting, which I would dearly like to attend because I would ask the question there. Unfortunately, the House is meeting that day and therefore I cannot attend. I responded immediately by saying that I could not $0 to the meeting but that I was still interested in receiving a reply to my earlier request; In case it had been mislaid, I sent a copy of that request. I wait in vain; I have still had no reply to that letter and the reason is that the resolution was never passed by the committee of management. The officer was never authorized to send those telegrams but, because he is an operative of the Labor Party, he took it upon his own bat to send the telegrams to local members at the taxpayers' expense. I thoroughly object to that. Similarly, I received a letter in recent days from another organization which, I believe, receives vants from the State Government in order to assist the disadvantaged in the community. The letter urged me to support the Residential Tenancies Bill and it listed six or seven aspects dealing with security bonds, urgent repairs, rent a month in advance, eviction without notice and so on. Reportedly, it gives the organization's opinion of these aspects and suggests that I should support them. Once again, this was sent to me at the taxpayers' expense and I replied to that organization as I had been asked to reply as a matter of urgency. I have given my views and I shall be interested to see whether I receive a response from that organization. Strangely, I have also received a letter from Mr Batchelor, the State Secretary of the ALP, dated 18 February 1986, addressed to ALP members and which begins: Dear Comrade, Really and truly, they show their true colours! Dear Comrade, re: Residential Tenancies Campaign-Suppon A.L.P. Policy I am writing to you to seek your support for the above campaign. The Residential Tenancies Bill is one of the key social reforms of the Cain Government. It comes before the Legislative Council during the fonhcoming Autumn session of Parliament. That is interesting. We are trying to get the Bill on for debate but there has been no indication from the Government that it intends to bring it on. The Bill itself is the culmination of years of works by the Housing Construction Policy Committee and has widespread suppon within the Pany. It represents the commitment of the Cain Government to implement A.L.P. policy which proposes fairer laws for all in the area of rental accommodation. If the Government is so keen on fairer laws for rental accommodation why not introduce the Bill so that honourable members can debate it? This is the key paragraph in the letter: Over the next eight weeks the campaign will focus on certain National Party MPs whose votes will be crucial in determining whether the Residential Tenancies Bill is allowed to pass through the Upper House. Community pressure needs to be brought to bear so they modify any obstructionist stance. Residential Tenancies Bill 19 March 1986 COUNCIL 89

I have never been obstructionist in this House. The letter continues: A series of meetings of A.L.P. members is being conducted at six strategic locations around Victoria ... These meetings have been called to inform A.L.P. members about the legislation in detail and to plan locally based campaigns directed at your local National MPs, especially the MLC representatives in your area. That very interesting letter was written on 18 February. I await representations from ALP members in the area I represent regardin~ that letter. I have not received any representations yet. I shall be pleased to receive them If they come to hand. That is an example of the types of letters that are circulated around the State. The Government refuses to give honourable members the opportunity of debating proposed legislation to see whether they are prepared to pass it. It is left han$ing as a threat or is interpreted as a threat by many landlords in the State. People are fnghtened to invest in rental accommodation and, therefore, demand is outstripping supply. The result is that rents are increasing and the people the Government claims to represent are severely disadvantaged. I urge the House to carry the motion moved by Mr Chamberlain and I urge the Government to act on it. The Hon. B. T. PULLEN (Melbourne Province)-I wish to introduce candour into this debate, which is basically a tactical exercise by the Liberal Party. I must say that I am surprised to find that I agree wholeheartedly with one comment made by Mr Baxter, namely, that housing problems are extremely pressing and one of the most common problems that face honourable members in their electorate offices. It is extraordinary that, given that Mr Baxter is prepared to acknowledge that fact, and I imagine that other honourable members would agree that almost 50 per cent of queries directed to electorate offices involve a person who either needs shelter or needs improvements in his or her housin$ conditions, that some honourable members adopt a cynical attitude to reform legislation. The Hon. W. R. Baxter-It is not cynical! The Hon. B. T. PULLEN-It is cynical. Before going over that and the tactics of the Liberal Party, which is led by the growing right wing, I wish to refer to some matters of substance because I am sure some honourable members would like to have their memories refreshed on these matters. The basic purpose of the Residential Tenancies Bill is to improve access to housing for people who make up that section of the community who live in rented accommodation. Every examination has shown this group to be the most disadvantaged in terms of equity of tenure, and yet it represents approximately 25 per cent of tenure in most States. It is clear that whatever the value-and I heartily support measures to provide better public housing-it will take a long time before effective measures can provide public housing in this country to meet the needs of that percentage of the population who have to live in rented accommodation. The purpose of reforming the tenancy legislation is to improve access to rental accommodation and the equity of that access. It is interesting that the Residential Tenancies Bill is related to measures that were formerly foreshadowed by the previous Liberal Government, which set up a committee that made recommendations similar, ifnot identical, to the provisions in the measure that is being discussed today. If the Liberal Party had had the courage of its convictions and had gone ahead and introduced reform when it was in government, amending legislation would not be necessary today. Members of the Liberal Party cannot escape from that statement. It is a sad reflection on the current state of members of the Liberal Party who have expressed a commitment to liberal principles and to the rights of individuals who are in that situation of need. 90 COUNCIL 19 March 1986 Residential Tenancies Bill

Yesterday, some Opposition members in the other place showed, on a welfare issue, that they were able to understand the plight of individuals in that situation. It is sad that that view in the Liberal Party is so depressed that this matter has been taken off the agenda by the emerging right wing forces. It shows that the Liberal Party is responding to the proposed legislation in the same way as those with vested interests in the real estate industry are responding. There is hardly any difference between the response ofthe Liberal Party and the response of that section of the real estate industry that believes it will be affected in the hip pocket. The Labor Party has not addressed the response by the real estate industry. It has acknowledged that it IS an extremely sensitive area and the amount of investment and continuing activity in that sector is crucial to the welfare of many people. That is common ground. The attempt of the Government to develop responsible proposed legislation is clear evidence that the point has been taken on board. As honourable members are aware, consultants were engaged to examine the possible impact of legislation on the industry. A factor that has developed with the presentation of proposed legislation has been the realization that community knowledge of and access to even the existing legislation falls far short of what is desirable. Investigations and questionnaires to landlords and tenants have shown that a large number of people whose activities are influenced by the existing legislation have very little knowledge of it in detail or in general terms. The Hon. W. R. Baxter-That is the reason for the new Bill. The Hon. B. T. PULLEN-It is not. An important reason why the new Bill is framed in plain English is to make it more accessible. It is important to have fair and equitable legislation for all parties involved. When the decision was made to recast the Bill in plain English-and I took part in that decision-we did not realize the magnitude of the task in the case of such complicated legislation. The Hon. W. R. Baxter-The Bill goes further than recasting the Bill in plain English. The Hon. B. T. PULLEN-I am dealing with that aspect, which should not be neglected when people adopt an attitude to the Bill. The Hon. W. R. Baxter-Ifyou recast the existing Act in plain English, it will be passed in 24 hours. The Hon. B. T. PULLEN-It is not so simple to recast any legislation into plain English, as I have tried to explain. I regret that it has taken considerable time to do it properly rather than it bein$ a token effort. However, the proposed legislation is worth the effort; it is breakthrough legislation which ought to be regarded seriously by all honourable members. The Hon. B. A. Chamberlain-And debated by the House. The Hon. B. T. PULLEN-I shall come to that point. The combination of the two aspects-the reform of the proposed legislation and its greater accessibility by being presented in plain English-makes the Bill the vehicle that should be worked on rather than the previous Bill. The attitude of the Liberal Party is cynical and this becomes clear if one reads the speeches that were made in the Legislative Assembly. The Liberal Party has seen it as a totally false opportunity to make cheap political capItal out of the issue. Members of the Liberal Party misjudged the situation in this instance, just as they did in their abortive attempt to bring a representative of the mountain cattlemen before the Bar of the House. Party politics within the Liberal Party, the internal struggles for leadership and the faction fighting have led to the situation where views, which should be properly expressed by members of the Liberal Party and which could lead to amendments and improvements Residential Tenancies Bill 19 March 1986 COUNCIL 91 to the legislation, are not being put. That is not the path they are taking. They want to try to knock off the legislation to obtain cheap political kudos. That is why they are going through the charade of trying to move a motion and pretend they have the interests of the tenants at heart. They do not have their interests at heart; it is a stunt to move the motion on a Wednesday to show some of their supporters that they are following a certain line. At the time the proposed legislation was prepared, consultants were engaged to examine a number of factors about its possible impact. This included a review of the private rental housing market and the implications of tenancy law reform. It was the most major, serious examination of tenancy in Victoria that I can recall. As a result of the survey, a number of pieces of information emerged. I refer to table 4 of the summary report which is headed, "The Importance of Factors Influencing Investment Decision in Residential Rental Property". This is a subject about which honourable members share common concern. A number of matters were rated by landlords and intending landlords. The source of the information was a survey of landlords by the study team, by Monash University law students and landlords and intending landlords who were attending a property management course at the former Real Estate and Stock Institute of Victoria. The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN (Western Province )-On a point of order, the motion does not concern the merits of the Bill, nor does it seek to do so. I specifically did not canvass the merits of the Bill. The motion before the House is whether it should be debating the Bill under discussion. The honourable member is dealing with material concerning the merits of the Bill. The Opposition invites him to do so but to do so when the House is debating the Bill. The DEPUTY PRESIDENT (the Hon. G. A. Sgro)-Order! I agree with Mr Chamberlain that the honourable member has strayed from the motion. I ask him to return to the motion. The Hon. B. T. PULLEN (Melbourne Province)-One of the points ofMr Chamberlain's speech was the importance of the delay and the impact of residential tenancy law on the market. The Hon. HADOON STOREY (East Yarra Province )-On a point of order, you have already pven a ruling, Mr Deputy President, and the honourable member is questioning yourruhng. The DEPUTY PRESIDENT-I ask Mr Pullen to come back to the motion. The Hon. B. T. PULLEN (Melbourne Province)-I shall not quote from the report. I shall simply raise the issue of what Mr Chamberlain said. The Bill is not one of the most significant factors with respect to the impact on the market. The report to which I referred shows that residential tenancy legislation was perceived by landlords to be rated No. 9 in importance in a number of factors that landlords regard as important in their decisions about whether to invest. The proposed legislation was rated No. 11 in importance in the list of factors that intending landlords rated as important. Mr Chamberlain's point that the delay in introducing the proposed legislation causes uncertainty is clearly false because it is one ofa number of points and is rated by landlords as No. 9 or No. 11 in their rating of important factors. The reason the Liberal Party is refusing to take a responsible attitude towards the proposed legislation is clearly related to its ideological position. Usually, where disagreement exists about proposed legislation, the responsible method adopted to overcome this has been for the parties to place on the table the specific objections they have and negotiations then take place. In this case, the Liberal Party is signalling that is is not prepared to do that; it is not prepared to do as much as the real estate industry did, in that the industry made its concerns apparent. Some 60 amendments were prepared by the Government when the Bill was dealt with in the Legislative Assembly. The amendments arose as a result of reasonable points that 92 COUNCIL 19 March 1986 Residential Tenancies Bill were made by the real estate industry. However, the Liberal Party is not prepared to sit down and say precisely what is wrong with the plain English legislation so that it can be debated in the Committee stage. The Hon. W. R. Baxter-That is what we are asking you to do. The Hon. B. T. PULLEN-That is what honourable members opposite pretend to want but they give no assurance that they will deal with the Bill at the Committee stage. All indications are that honourable members opposite will knock off the Bill at the second­ reading stage or take action to get rid of it. The opposition parties are not showing any interest. When they demonstrate that they have something to contribute to the debate and that they are prepared to explain specifically why they do not agree with parts of the Bill, debate can take place. The opposition parties have shown that they have the ability to propose amendments if they want to. If they are serious, that is the situation with which they ought to be comfortable. If that were the case, the proper processes of the House could be followed. The motion is a farce. The opposition parties should tell the Government what they are prepared to do so that it can get on with the introduction of a plain English Bill that is truly a reform measure. The Hon. HADDON STOREY (East Yarra Province)-Honourable members have just heard the most absurd proposition put forward by Mr Pullen. He is asserting that the House should not deal with the Bill until the Opposition has gone throu~ the Bill clause by clause with the Government and told the Government what it thinks about those clauses. Mr President, have you ever heard anything more absurd, because that is what the role of the House is. If the Government really wanted to know what the Opposition thought about every clause in the Bill, why did it guillotine the Bill in another place? The Opposition was ready to go through the Bill clause by clause and explain its attitude towards each clause and discuss it sensibly and rationally. Instead, the Government guillotined the Bill because it claimed it was urgent. Now Mr Pullen has the audacity to say that the Bill should not be brought on for discussion in this House until the Opposition has been through all the clauses with the Government. It is an absurdity and it is a disgrace on the part of the Government that no Minister is prepared to explain why the Government has not brought on the Bill for debate. The Leader of the House has the duty to explain the program of the Government. If he is not going to bring on the Bill, he should explain it or at least the Minister handling it should explain why the Bill has not been brought on. Instead of that, the Leader of the House asked Mr Pullen to speak on the Bill. Having heard what Mr Pullen had to say, I can understand why the Leader of the House did not want to say anything because it is so completely absurd. The only way ofgetting on with the Bill, determining what should happen to it, examining its provisions and having a proper debate on it, is to bring the Bill on for debate. It has been sitting on the Notice Paper since last year. It was promised in 1982 by the Government but it took the Government four years to produce the Bill in the first place, which is much longer than it took me to produce a Bill, which is part of the law of the State and which is working well. The absurdity of the Bill is that the Government has never sought to justify the changes from the present law except by a reference to the 1980 report of the community committee. If the Government really believes the present law has not been working properly, it has the capacity, resources and time to examine what is happening in the market-place and to bring out the facts and the figures which show that the present law is not working. The Government has never attempted to do that because the Bill is an ideological one. It has nothing to do with what is sensible, right or what should operate in the community. Residential Tenancies Bill 19 March 1986 COUNCIL 93

The Bill has been brought in because the Government has an ideological commitment to reform irrespective of what effect it has on the rental market and irrespective of whether the present law is working well. I do not know why the Government persists with this farce. If the Government really wants to change the law and if it really wants to show there is nothing wrong with the law, it has access to the Residential Tenancies Tribunal, the officers of which could produce the figures to show how many cases of bond disputes there have been, what has been wrong with that; whether there have been delays or no delays and what percentage that is of the total number of bonds that are in the community. The Government has not done that because it is not interested in the facts and what is really hap~ning. The Government is only interested in carrying out some sort of commitment that It has to its left wing. I am tired of members of the Government producing the old canard of the community committee being set up by the previous Government. The community committee was not set up by the previous Government, it set itself up at a public meeting which was not convened by the previous Government. After it was set up, the previous Government gave it financial assistance and, as Mr Chamberlain said, the committee produced a very good report. The fact that it is a very good report does not mean that everything in it is correct. The fact that it is a very good report does not mean that the committee which produced it was balanced. In fact the committee that produced it was not a balanced committee and, if honourable members want an independent, objective assessment of that, I refer to the work done by Professor Sackville, who examined the work done by that committee. He examined the whole process of consultation which took place on the previous legislation and came to the conclusion that that committee was not a balanced one. It does not matter what the Government says. An independent, well respected and renowned person has made that independent assessment and has come up with that conclusion. The Government continually refers to a 1983 report as ifit is proof of the fact that there should be reform to residential tenancy in Victoria and that its Bill will do no harm. That report did not have access to the Government's Bill. That report was compiled under the direction of a steering committee that was dominated by Labor Party people. Mr Pullen was a member of that steering committee and two others of the six members of that steering committee were Ministerial advisers. It was not a steering committee that was totally divorced and objective. The report is based on methodology which is quite hopeless and inappropriate for the determination of what is happening in the market­ place under the present law. That could be done in a way I have described but nobody has attempted to do it. The methodology of that report was to take a sample of people who responded to surveys in whatever order they thought various factors would affect their entering the residential tenancy market. That proves nothing. It certainly is not an economic assessment of what affects the residential tenancy market. That sort of assessment can be done quite easily. If the Government had appointed people to do it, there may be substance in what it is saying. However, the Government is relying on a report with a doubtful methodology. The Government has not given any facts or figures to support its proposed legislation. The Government is simply proceeding on an ideological bent. If the Government wants to do that, and it wants to do so urgently, it should bring on the Bill for debate and use arguments to support it. Mr Pullen wants the Opposition to point out what it believes is wrong with the Bill. The Opposition will do that if the Government brings on the Bill for debate so that the public can hear what the Government and the Opposition have to say. The Opposition believes these things should be dealt with in public and not behind closed doors, like the Government 94 COUNCIL 19 March 1986 Residential Tenancies Bill conducts all its business. The Opposition would like the public to have the opportunity of hearing proper debate on everything to do with the Bill. It is a disgrace that the Leader of the House is not prepared to justify the failure of the Government to bring on the Bill for debate. The Hon. B. W. MIER (Waverley Province)-I move: That the debate be adjourned until later this day. The House divided on Mr Mier's motion (the Hon. R. A. Mackenzie in the chair). Ayes 21 Noes 22 Majority against the motion AYES NOES Mrs Coxsedge MrBaxter Mrs Dixon MrConnard MrHenshaw Mrde Fegely Mrs Hogg MrDunn MrKennan MrEvans MrKennedy MrGranter Mrs Kimer MrGrimwade Mr Landeryou MrGuest Mrs Lyster MrHallam MrMcArthur MrHunt Mrs McLean MrKnowles MrMier MrLawson MrMurphy MrLong MrPullen MrMacey MrSandon MrMiles MrSgro MrReid MrVan Buren MrStorey MrWalker Mrs Varty MrWhite MrWard Tellers: MrWright MrAmold Tellers: MrCrawford Mr Birrell Mr Chamberlain The PRESIDENT-Order! As there are no further speakers to the motion I shall put the Question. The House divided on the motion (the Hon. R. A. Mackenzie in the chair). Ayes 22 Noes 21 Majority for the motion AYES NOES Mr Birrell MrAmold Mr Chamberlain Mrs Coxsedge Mrde Fegely MrCrawford MrDunn Mrs Hogg MrEvans MrKennan MrGranter MrKennedy MrGrimwade MrsKimer MrGuest Mr Landeryou MrHallam Mrs Lyster MrHunt MrMcArther MrKnowles M..sMcLean MrLawson MrMier MrLong MrMurphy MrMacey MrPullen Politicization ofPublic Service 19 March 1986 COUNCIL 95

AYES NOES MrMiles MrSandon MrReid MrSgro Mr Storey Mr Van Buren Mrs Varty MrWalker MrWard MrWhite MrWright Tellers Tellers MrsDixon Mr Baxter MrHenshaw MrConnard POLITICIZATION OF PUBLIC SERVICE The Hon. A. J. HUNT (South Eastern Province)-I move: That this House rejects and condemns the continuing efforts of the Government to politicize the Public Service, and reaffirms the importance ofthe political neutrality of that service to the interests both of Victorians generally and of public servants. I have before me the Australian Bureau of Statistics statement of employed wage and salary earners of Australia, September quarter 1985, issued only a month ago on 17 February 1986. That statement shows that the number of employees in Victorian State Government service at 30 September last was 303200, which is 34 100 in excess of the Australian Bureau of Statistics figures for 30 June 1982; in other words, the public sector employment of the State had increased by 34 100 or 12·7 per cent in only three and a quarter years. No figures were available for March 1982 when the Labor Party Government obtained office and it is now March 1986, so there are still nine months unaccounted for, and one can be sure that the total increase has been more than 35 000. I reiterate that the Australian Bureau of Statistics figures for three and a quarter years show 34 100 extra positions. These 34 100 extra positions are to little, ifany, identifiable advantage to the people of the State. The Government has been busily providing jobs for the boys and girls. The Government, regardless of cost and of consequences, has expanded the public sector of the State enormously and provided positions of patronage to its own adherents and supporters. This has amounted to jobbery on the greatest scale that has been seen ever in Westminster or in any British country of the Westminster tradition. Certainly, it is the greatest case ofjobbery that has been seen ever in this State. The Government has sought to subvert a formerly independent Public Service to the service of the Australian Labor Party. The Opposition stands foursquare behind the long established principle that the Public Service exists to serve the people as a whole and not the narrow, sectional interests of any party. Of course, the Public Service must loyally support and assist the Government of the day regardless of changes in government, and the Public Service has always accepted that vital and important principle. Australia has never adopted the American principle that to the victor go the spoils. In the United States of America senior public servants and many far down the echelon retire when there is a change in government. That system makes for discontinuity. The British system has. been to the contrary. Australia has projected that approach of the Westminster system. Hitherto Australians across party lines have believed that the neutrality and independence of the Public Service must be maintained and respected, that it must be impartial and that appointments should never be made on the basis of political affiliation or preference. The Hon. D. R. White-Come on, make a case! You have not made a case yet; it is just rhetoric. The Hon. B. W. Mier-He supports the Yes, Minister system. 96 COUNCIL 19 March 1986 Politicization ofPublic Service

The Hon. A. J. HUNT-Mr Mier ridicules a well tried system of an impartial and continuing-- The Hon. D. R. White-Tell us about Laurie Shears-you pushed him! The Hon. A. J. HUNT-Mr Mier ridicules the well tried system of an impartial and continuin~ Public Service by reference to the Yes, Minister principle. What Mr Mier wants is a politicized Public Service that will stand behind his Minister. Nowhere has the attempt by the Australian Labor Party Government to bend the Public Service to its will in a way that brooks no possible-- The Hon. D. R. White-Make a case! The Hon. A. J . HUNT-Nowhere has it been more clearJy demonstrated than at positions at the top. When the Labor Party Government took office in 1982 there were 29 departments, 29 permanent heads or senior heads in charge of Ministries. The Hon. B. W. Mier-All Liberal Party appointees! The Hon. A. J . HUNT-One would expect in four years some turnover of those appointments-- The Hon. W. A. Landeryou-We should have got rid of the lot! The Hon. A. J. HUNT-Mr Landeryou's interjection is an attitude to which I am drawing attention-- The Hon. D. R. White-We would have got Shears, only you got him first! Go on and make a case! The Hon. A. J. HUNT-I am trying to speak, but I am being interrupted constantly by interjections. There were 29 departments and Ministries with permanent heads or senior officers in charge. One would expect a considerable turnover in four years. One is amazed when one looks at the record. The Hon. D. R. White-Robin Ritchie was a political appointment! The Hon. A. J. HUNT-One finds of the 29 that today, about four years later, only three remain-Mr Clarkson in the Ministry for the Arts, Mr King in the Ministry for Police and Emergency Services, and Mr Little in the Public Works Department. Those are the three out of29; of those remaining'26, some retired in the fullness of time, some were transferred, but many were upushed down lift wells," to use the colourful phrase of the undertaker, the Minister for Health. The Hon. J. W. Kirner-At least he arranged for a funeral. The Hon. A. J. HUNT-Mr Landeryou is just sorry that the Labor Party Government did not get rid of the last three. The Hon. W. A. Landeryou-There were in fact 32 departments when the Liberal Party was in government. The Hon. A. J. HUNT-Mr Landeryou should count according to the directory. According to the directory, there were 29 departments. I have supplied to you a table showing what occurred with respect to those 29 senior officers, Mr President. I have also shown it to the Leaders of the other parties and I now seek leave for its incorporation in Hansard without it being read. In doing so, I make it clear that I accept personal responsibility for the analysis shown there, and I naturally acknowledge that agreement to tabling does not necessarily imply acceptance by other parties of the material included in the table. The PRESIDENT-I have examined the material submitted by the Leader of the Opposition and find that it meets the criteria for incorporation in Hansard. Politicization ofPublic Service 19 March 1986 COUNCIL 97

The Hon. W. A. Landeryou-Is it the intention of the Leader of the Opposition to distribute the document? The Hon. A. J . HUNT-Yes. The PRESIDENT-I understand that copies are available. The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs)-Mr Hunt showed me the document prior to the debate, and leave is granted. The Hon. W. A. Landeryou-One cannot speak for all of us, Mr President. Leave was granted and the table was as follows: FATE OF MAJOR OFFICE HOLDERS SINCE CAIN GOVERNMENT ELECTION Ministry ofMajor Office Reason Agriculture X Smith Own choice Arts continue Clarkson Attorney-General X Viney Pushed Solicitor-General X Dawson Own choice Corp Affairs X Wade Supplanted Chief Parliament Counsel X Finemore Retired Public Trustee X Spencer Pushed Community Welfare X Bodna Forced transfer Restructure Correctional Services X Apsey Forced transfer Restructure Conservation X Brookes Retired Environment Protection Authority X Acting New Consumer Affairs X Miller Own choice Economic Development X Ritchie Mutual Education X Curry Forced transfer Employment and Training X Roux Forced ttansfer Federal Affairs X Thomson Retired, Abolished Forests X Threader Retired Grove Forced transfer Health X Trevaks Restructured Housing X Gilbert Own choice Immigration and Ethnic Affairs X Sheppard Transferred Labour and Industry X Prior Restructured Lands X Ashworth Restructured Local Government X Pentland Pushed Minerals & Energy X Acting Restructured Gas & Fuel Corporation X Smith No longer Chief Executive State Electricity Commission X Trethowan No longer Chief Executive Planning X Haynes Transferred Melbourne & Metropolitan Board of X Croxford Got out first Works Police & Emergency Services continue King Country Fire Authority X Newell Retired Fire Brigades Metro Board X lohnson Retired Premier X Green Retired early Industrial Relations X Stelmach New job Public Service Board X Cullen Own choice? State Co-ord Council X Delaney Abolished Property and Services X Little (Acting) Public Works continue Little Port of Melbourne Authority X Mayne Retired Soldier Settlement X Morton Abolished (still holds job) Tourism X Rowe Restructure Transport X Wilson Pushed Metropolitan and Melbourne Trams X Snell Downgraded Board Country Roads Board continue Russell To go VicRail X Reiher Promoted Transport Regulations Board X Meech Restructured Session 1986-4 98 COUNCIL 19 March 1986 Politicization ofPublic Service

Treasury x Baker Restructured Water Supply X Mann Pushed State Rivers X Bromfield Retired Youth, Sport and Recreation X Barwick Pushed

The Hon. A. J. HUNT (South Eastern Province)-The table also deals with twenty major officers, over and above permanent heads and heads of Ministries. These are the executive chairmen of major statutory authorities and other major office-holders. It shows that, of those twenty major public officers, one-namely, Mr Tom Russell, the chairman of the Country Roads Board---continues, although it is widely rumoured that he is about to leave far earlier than would normally have been expected. The Hon. K. I. M. Wright-It has been announced today. The Hon. A. J. HUNT-I thank Mr Wright for that information. I did not include in the table the numerous boards and organizations under the former Education Department. Perhaps I should have included the Victorian Post-Secondary Education Commission whose executive chairman, Dr Allen, remains. That inclusion would make a total of 50, with three heads out of 29 remaining after four years and two of the remaining 21 major office-holders remaining in the service. That is an incredible turnover. It is absolutely unbelievable. The Hon. D. R. White-What about Sir Brian "In-a-hurry"? The Hon. A. J. HUNT-That level of turnover would never be expected in the normal course of events and can be explained only as a deliberate policy. Mr White interjects about the former Governor, Sir . Everybody realized that the Premier set up the Governor with a view to obtaining his removal. Honourable Members-Hear, hear! The Hon. A. J. HUNT-Everybody knows that the Premier, ifhe disagreed in respect of the overseas trip that Sir Brian was to take, could have prevented him from going. The PRESIDENT-Order! I ask the honourable member to confine his remarks to the matter before the Chair. The Hon. A. J. HUNT-Everybody knows that the Premier could have prevented Sir Brian Murray from taking that trip, but he let him go and then used the fact that he had gone as an excuse for his dismissal. I must add that two other office-holders are protected by the law and cannot be dismissed by the Government. They are the Ombudsman and the Auditor-General, so I have not included them in the list; they remain safe. I propose to deal in this debate with the upper echelons of the Public Service, and my colleagues will deal with what has happened at the lower levels. The picture is one of wholesale change and the placing of party faithful. The Hon. J. V. C. Guest-Hacks. The Hon. A. J. HUNT-Mr Guest interjects the word "hacks". I avoid the word. The Hon. D. R. White-Name the hacks! The hacks are sitting on your back bench. The PRESIDENT-Order! Order! The Hon. A. J. HUNT-I avoid that word, but the position is clear. The Hon. D. R. White-One area where you specialize is in hacks. The PRESIDENT-Order! The Minister for Health will come to order. Politicization ofPublic Service 19 March 1986 COUNCIL 99

The Hon. A. J . HUNT-The Labor Party has clearly set out on a conscious and deliberate campaign to ensure that the Public Service as a whole-- The Hon. W. A. Landeryou-Is improved. The Hon. A. J . HUNT-The Opposition has set out on a deliberate campaign to ensure that the Public Service as a whole not merely provides the support that is customary and has always been expected by the Government of the day but that the Public Service and those who occupy positions of responsibility in it will provide-- The Hon. D. R. White-Make your case. You have not made a case yet. The Hon. A. J. HUNT-Mr White interjects again. In the Age of6 March, Mr Monty Burgess, the General Secretary of the Victorian Public Service Association, was reported as having said that: ... his members had been demoralized and disadvantaged by the administrative policies of the Cain Government He was further reported as having said that: ... many senior public servants were afraid to give frank and impartial advice to State Ministers because of the increasingly political nature of the bureaucracy. Remember, this was said by the General Secretary of the Victorian Public Service Association, an association that gave practical support to the present Government in its election. Mr Burgess is further reported as saying that: ... blatantly political appointments by the Cain Government had severely damaged efficiency in the Public Service. The public servants believed that the Ministers expected the party line to form the basis of advice. The Hon. D. R. White-That is why he is out looking for a job! The Hon. A. J. HUNT-There we are! "That is why he is out looking for a job," says the Minister for Health. Mr Burgess is further quoted as saying: If they gave contrary advice the public servants feared being overlooked for future appointments. The Hon. D. R. White-Why don't you make your case? The Hon. A. J. HUNT-Mr Burgess is also reported as having said: ... morale is at a very low ebb at the moment. There is a brain drain from the Victorian Public Service to private industry and the Commonwealth Public Service ... The Hon. D. R. White-Whom are you Quoting-Eda Ritchie? The Hon. A. J . HUNT-The report attributes the remarks to Monty Burgess, the General Secretary of the Victorian Public Service Association. The Hon. D. R. White-Is this your speech for Saturday? The Hon. A. J. HUNT-The report continues by Quoting Mr Burgess as having said: There is a brain drain from the Victorian Public Service ... The Hon. D. R. White-The brain drain is not going on on the Liberal Party back­ bench. The PRESIDENT-Order! I will not ask the Minister for Health to come to order again. The Hon. D. R. White-It's lunch time, anyway. The PRESIDENT-Order! The Minister will cease interjecting for the remainder of this debate. 100 COUNCIL 19 March 1986 Politicization ofPublic Service

The Hon. D. R. White-At least until after lunch. The PRESIDENT-Order! The Hon. A. J. HUNT-Mr Burgess is reported as having said: There is a brain drain from the Victorian Public Service to private industry and the Commonwealth Public Service because the prospects have been so drastically reduced. The almost unstoppable interjections coming from the Government's Ministerial benches indicate their sensitivity to the issue. The Hon. D. R. White-When Galbally made a speech like this, we sent him out to play golf. The PRESIDENT-Order! I will give the Minister one last warning. If he interjects again, I will name him. The Hon. A. J . HUNT-That was a cruel interjection concerning the Minister's former Leader. One would expect the General Secretary of the Victorian Public Service Association to be able to speak with authority on behalf of his members. That is his job; he is there to voice their concerns and their fears, and he voiced them effectively as reported in the Age of Thursday, 6 March 1986. I shall develop this issue further, Mr President, but I suggest that this may be a convenient time to suspend the sitting. The Hon. D. R. White-Why don't you go and do some homework? The sitting was suspended at 1 p.m. until 2.3 p.m. The Hon. A. J. HUNT-Before the suspension of the sitting I was dealin~ with the fact that only 3 out of 29 heads of departments and Ministries remain. That IS a staggering figure. Mr Landeryou, by his interjection, made it plain that he believes, as a former Minister, that his party should have dispensed with all of them and not just 26 out of29. "We should have got rid of all of them," he said. That indicates, I think, to everyone in the House that what has occurred was a deliberate and orchestrated campaign. Only 3 out of 29 heads of departments or Ministries still remaining is, as I said, a striking figure but what is even more striking is the result when one looks at the replacements. What is the situation with those who have replaced those 26 who have disappeared? What is the situation? Have they risen in the service; are they career diplomats with a long history of efficiency and competent public service-the answer is "No". I can find only two of the replacements who have been appointed in the normal way from the Public Service of Victoria. There may be more and I should like that information if Ministers are able to tell me of any more. Mr Russell, who came from the Public Service Board, the Public Bodies Review Committee, thence to the Ministry for Minerals and Energy, has now been appointed to the Department of Property and Services. The Hon. W. A. Landeryou-Are you suggesting there is something wrong about that course? The Hon. A. J. HUNT-No, I am not suggesting that at all. The Hon. W. A. Landeryou-What is wrong with Mr Russell? The Hon. A. J. HUNT-I am not suggesting that at all. Mr Landeryou should have been here to hear what I have had to say. The other appointment that could be argued is a career appointment is that of Mr John King to the Law Department. In 1981, Mr King came from outside the Public Service. He had various jobs with the Public Service Board and then he went on to the Corporate Affairs Office. Politicization ofPublic Service 19 March 1986 COUNCIL 101

The Hon. E. H. Walker-And to the Melbourne and Metropolitan Board of Works. The Hon. A. J. HUNT-Yes, as a part-time commissioner. I was not trying to give the range of his jobs. Then, after some five years in the Victorian Public Service, he goes on to head up a department. The Hon. J. H. Kennan-Y ou know that he is an outstanding manager! The Hon. A. J. HUNT-I am not suggesting anything adverse; I am saying that there are only two of these people of whom I am aware who have been appointed by virtue of being departmental officers. If the Attorney-General had earlier been present in the House he would have heard the way I put this and he would not then have misinterpreted it. It is a frightening fact when one finds that 26 out of 29 departmental heads have gone within a short period and that the replacements-bar two, unless the Government can demonstrate otherwise-have all come from outside the normal career path. I have said that this was a deliberate campaign and we must consider the academic justification for the course the Government has taken. Or John Paterson was appointed by the former Minister of Water Supply, now the Minister for Health, to head the restructured Department of Water Resources. On 6 June 1983, when Or John Paterson was Chairman of the Hunter District Water Board, he delivered to the Research School of Social Sciences a paper entitled, "Bureaucratic Reform by Cultural Revolution". I shall return to that document later and deal with it in more detail, but the thesis of Or Paterson's paper was simply that a new Government, wanting change, must replace those positions at the top, each new appointee must then seek to get ten loyalists under him and those in turn must seek to get ten similar people under them. Thus one completely revolutionizes the Public Service. That is the process that has been going on. The Minister for Health, who was then the Minister of Water Supply, must have been impressed by this paper because he appointed Dr John Paterson to head his department shortly after that. I do not propose to go throu~ every item in the list I have tabled, as that would be tedious. I shall deal with a selectIOn of them. In the Law Department, Mr Viney disappeared and Professor Kelly was appointed in his place. Professor Kelly has now been shunted sideways to law reform and Mr King has been appointed in his place. The then Solicitor-General, Sir Daryl Dawson, left of his own volition due to an invitation to join the High Court Bench. However, the Attorney-General made it extremely plain, in a previous debate, that he did not think much of Sir Daryl. The Hon. J. H. Kennan-I said all Solicitors-General. The Hon. W. A. Landeryou-You did not think much of his opinions as you kept arguing about them. The Hon. A. J. HUNT-Mr Landeryou has the wrong impression. I was referring to the opinions of the current Solicitor-General who has sought, unlike the previous Solicitors­ General, simply to support the Government regardless of whether it is right or wrong. On a previous occasion I pointed out that former Solicitors-General have indicated to Governments when they were running into danger and have not assisted them to use certain devices to get around the law. As Mr Landeryou has raised the issue, I remind honourable members of the reference to the late Sir Henry Winneke, who served three political parties as an extremely good Solicitor-General wIthout anyone at any time believing that he could not do so with complete impartiality. Honourable members will remember that he advised a Country Party Government facing refusal of Supply that it could not borrow without the consent of Parliament. It was unpalatable advice, but it was accepted by the Government of the day. That is quite contrary to the advice given by the present Solicitor-General. Yesterday, the Attorney-General deliberately evaded a full answer to questions raised about the demise of the Public Trustee. 102 COUNCIL 19 March 1986 Politicization ofPublic Service

The Hon. J. H. Kennan-He has gone to a good position in another place! The Hon. A. J. HUNT-That is an inaccurate statement. Mr Spencer, until last week the Public Trustee of this State, had been placed on the unattached list. He is currently with the Department of Property and Services and is performing a temporary job of investigating aspects of the Titles Office. If that is not being pushed aside, I do not know what is. If honourable members want further demonstration of the fact, I shall refer to the last issue of the Law Department house magazine-published before Mr Spencer disappeared­ which had articles inviting members of the department to get to know their senior officers in the various branches. The senior officers had their curricula vitae set out; a notable absence was the curriculum vitae of Mr Spencer. In other words, those at the top, those who publish the magazine, knew that he was about to go. I shall refer to the Commissioner for Corporate Affairs, Mrs Wade, who was supplanted while-- The Hon. J. H. KENNAN (Attorney-General)-Mr President, I draw to your attention the fact that the matters Mr Hunt is about to go into are the subject of litigation in the Supreme Court. Mr Hunt may not care about that any more than he cares about prejudicing the rights of people outside this House who do not have the opportunity of replying. However, I draw his attention to a suit brought by one party against a prominent newspaper. The PRESIDENT-Order! I thank the Attorney-General and I draw the attention of Mr Hunt to those comments. The Hon. A. J. HUNT (South Eastern Province)-I was unaware of the writ, and the Attorney-General has not explained it in detail. The rule of sub judice applies officially only when a matter is set down for hearing. Nevertheless, I shall certainly not go into anything that would prejudice the impartial hearing of that case. I shall refer only to the Attorney-General's role, and I shall do so briefly. The supplanting ofMrs Wade took place immediately following her return from overseas study leave and shortly after the Attorney­ General's newsletter of October 1985 had praised her administration as the best in Australia. It is currently rumoured that the job taken by Mr King, who has now moved to head the Law Department, has been offered to Mr Robert Miller, former Labor member for Prahran in another place, and that he has refused it. The Hon. J. H. Kennan-That is absolutely untrue! The Hon. A. J. HUNT-If the Attorney-General says that is untrue, I accept that the rumour conveyed to me is unfounded. The Hon. H. R. Ward-It came from an impeccable source close to the Attorney­ General. The Hon. J. H. Kennan-It is absolutely untrue! The PRESIDENT-Order! Constant interjections shall cease. The Attorney-General can refute the remarks made by Mr Hunt later in the debate if he so wishes, but he shall not do so across the floor. The Hon. A. J. HUNT-I advise the House that that comment was rumoured. The Attorney-General had denied it categorically and, therefore, I accept his denial. I shall now refer to the reorganization of conservation, forests and lands. The Hon. J. H. Kennan-Haven't you got any others in law? The Hon. A. J. HUNT-I can speak further about law if the Attorney-General wishes. The PRESIDENT-Order! I suggest that Mr Hunt ignores interjections. Politicization ofPublic Service 19 March 1986 COUNCIL 103

The Hon. A. J. HUNT-I have made it plain that I intended to deal with the top echelon of appointments only and that boards and statutory authorities would be dealt with by my colleagues. If the Attorney-General wants me to mention others, I could mention his policy and research unit which is chock-full of members from the Society of Labor Lawyers. I am informed that the association checks out prospective appointments on its computer list. In relation to what was the Department of Economic Development, I have recorded that Mr Ritchie left by a mutual decision. The Hon. C. F. Van Boren-How did he get that appointment? The Hon. A. J. HUNT-I accept the fact that a man who was the husband of the State President of the Liberal Party could hardly be acceptable in the long term to the Labor Government as the head of a department. I accept the fact that the parties mutually decided that fact and that the decision was not imposed pre-emptorily. As to education-- The Hon. D. R. White-Talk about your record in education! The Hon. A. J. HUNT-The Minister for Health has been referring to Dr Shears, and yet he said: "If you hadn't got rid of him, we would have." That was the Minister's interjection across the Chamber. In education, there was a major restructure; there was a major change of the organization of the former Education Department, and nominations were called for. The Hon. C. J. Kennedy-A Shears restructure! The Hon. A. J. HUNT-It was widely suggested in this House that Dr Shears had no chance of getting the job and that it was some sort of vendetta. The Hon. E. H. Walker-Who suggested that? The Hon. A. J. HUNT- You, the Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs, suggested it. The Hon. E. H. Walker-You said that it was suggested in this House: is that right? The Hon. A. J. HUNT-Yes; the Leader of the House has suggested it. The Hon. E. H. Walker-I should like you to show me where I am reported as having said that. The Hon. A. J. HUNT-I want to place on record my admiration of Dr Shears as an educational leader. His prime qualifications were as an educational leader rather than as an administrator. It seemed obvious to the then Government that with a major change in the structure which Dr Shears had himself largely established, he was not perhaps the best man to introduce the new structure. For those two reasons, the job was advertised. However, an important position was found for Dr Shears. In any event, that was an extraordinary and unique event in the life of the Liberal Government that honourable members opposite can point to. And yet, in the case of this Government, it has happened with almost every appointment. The Hon. E. H. Walker-We have not done that. The Hon. A. J. HUNT-What about what the Labor Party has done to Dr Curry, which was an appointment welcomed by the incoming Minister? The Hon. E. H. Walker-It was a transfer. 104 COUNCIL 19 March 1986 Politicization ofPublic Service

The Hon. A. J. HUNT-Honourable members talked about pushing people down liftwells; in this case, this gentleman, this citizen who has given great service to education, was transferred to the chairmanship of the Library Council of Victoria, which position used to be filled by a part-time judge. The Hon. B. A. Chamberlain-For nothing! The Hon. J. H. Kennan-John Starke was never part-time; it was very much a full-time job! The Hon. A. J. HUNT-I now turn to the item marked, ~~Immigration and Ethnic Affairs". The information that appears therein was derived from the Victorian Government Directory of July 1982. In fact, a correction is required at that point. Mr Dawney left shortly after the Government came to office and Mr Sheppard was appointed by the Government, firstly, on an acting basis and then on a permanent basis. Incidentally, he is also a Labor activitist, and, in turn, he has been supplanted, apparently as a result of trouble within the party factions. In the case of the Department of Crown Lands and Survey, which disappeared in the restructure, Mr Ashworth certainly lost his job as a permanent head as a result of that restructure, but he retained his position as the person in charge of the lands component of the new department and has recently retired. The Hon. E. H. Walker-That is not quite right. He spent some time working in transport as well. You should get your information right. The Hon. A. J. HUNT-I said that he retained it for some time and has recently retired. I did not seek to be comprehensive. The Hon. E. H. Walker-You made it seem as though he had stayed in the area of lands. The Hon. A. J. HUNT-In the case of the Department of Minerals and Energy, the former Minister for Minerals and Energy appointed Dr Russell, with whom he had been impressed in the Public Bodies Review Committee. I agree that Dr Russell was a very fine officer, and his job disappeared in the restructure; he has now gone to the Department of Property and Services. The Hon. J. H Kennan-Where he is the head of the department. Are you defaming him, too? The Hon. A. J. HUNT-I am not defaming him. The Attorney-General does not listen. He listens with only halfan ear. He does not understand because he takes very little notice of what happens in this House. He always comes in half-cocked. The PRESIDENT-Order! I suggest that Mr Hunt takes less notice of interjections. The Hon. A. J. HUNT-I now turn to the former Premiers Department. The Hon. D. R. White-You passed over the Department of Minerals and Energy very quickly. The Hon. A. J. HUNT-I do not propose to go through all the appointments down the line. They will be dealt with at another time. The Hon. D. R. White-What about the Board of Works? The Hon. J. H. Kennan-Mr Hunt will not say anything about the former head of that board. The Hon. D. R. White-That is right; one cannot defame the dead. The Hon. A. J. HUNT-The Minister for Health is doing himself no credit. With regard to the late Mr Croxford, at least he had the sense, I believe, not to wait to be pushed down a liftwell as the others have been. Politicization ofPublic Service 19 March 1986 COUNCIL 105

The Hon. E. H. Walker-That is not correct. The Hon. A. J. HUNT-~~One cannot defame the dead", is the Minister's hurtful expression. I now return to the paper produced by Dr Paterson, which is entitled, "Bureaucratic Reform By Cultural Revolution". At page 3 of his paper, Dr Paterson refers to the fact that: When organizational change represents only a small displacement from the prior equilibrium, all these stakeholders remain in place, with power largely unchecked.

Or Paterson ~oes on to point out that one must upset the equilibrium completely, that one has to destabtlize the organization and destabilize the service to make oneself the absolute master of it. That is, of course, what the Labor Party has set out to do. At page 6 of his paper, Or Paterson states: Promotion by seniority ensures that responsible positions are filled by long service employees. The destabilizing influence, and pre-emption of positional goods, caused by outside appointments is strenuously opposed by unions and management. However, he goes on to point out that one must still do that, and then one obtains control. At page 9 of the paper, Or Paterson suggests: Senior management must be reformed first. He recommends that Governments brook no interference in ensuring that that is done. The paper also states: If you have ten immediate subordinates who are capable and loyal, your effectiveness is immediately mUltiplied tenfold. If each develops ten such subordinates within his or her division, your effectiveness is mUltiplied 100 fold. With one or two funher replications of this exponential process, you will have completely transformed the largest organization. That is what the Labor Party has set out to do. Dr Paterson goes on to state: These are the key elements of strategy~ unremitting attack on weak points of the old system, development of the system of production, and exponential multiplication of your own visions through the growth ofloyal cadres. Dr Paterson states that this can be accomplished with 10 to 50 people in one year; with 50 to 500 people in two years; with 500 to 5000 people in three years; and with 5000 to 50 000 people in four years. I now turn to the conclusions of Dr Paterson's paper, and I refer to page 14, where he states: In organizational revolution there are only two objectives. On the pan of "the system", the object of winning is to nulify your initiatives, to render you impotent, and to drive you from the organization. On your pan, the objective is to avoid those results, to take prisoners, and to capture territory. Note the essential asymmetry of objectives. They strongly condition the range oftactics available and the choice from that range. Peace becomes possible when you have captured all the territory, re-educated all the prisoners ... And, I suppose by that he means public servants- ... who are willing to become loyal citizens, and to put to the sword those who remain unreconstructed. That is the strategy. The Hon. B. W. Mier-Who wrote that? The Hon. A. J. HUNT-Dr John Paterson wrote it, as Mr Mier would have heard me say. I note that Mr Mier is smiling with approval of the doctrines of John Paterson, now the Director-General of Water Resources. The strategy is laid out as plain as can be. On the other hand, only a few weeks ago a major paper by Sir Paul Hasluck was published in Quadrant. Sir Paul had half a century as a close observer of the Public Service, firstly, as a Press Gallery journalist, subsequently as an historian, later as an 106 COUNCIL 19 March 1986 Politicization ofPublic Service academic in this field, then as a member of Parliament, following that as a Minister, and later as Governor-General and President of the Executive Council. He had a unique breadth of perspective. He puts to rest for all time, I hope, the notion held by so many Labor academics that the Public Service must be politicized and bent to the will of the party. He points out in that paper-that I commend to all honourable members the March issue of Quadrant-that an impartial, continuing Public Service is the only hope for the community as a whole-the only hope. When a Public Service is not impartial in the sense of political neutrality there will be problems; but this does not imply neutrality towards implementing the policies of the Government of the day. Of course public servants must accept and implement the policies of the Government of the day, but they nevertheless must give the Government impartial advice. They warn the Government of traps, whichever party may be the Government. Sir Paul acknowledges, as do all academic writers, that individual members of the Public Service will have their own political views. They seek, and have always sought, under the Westminster tradition to put them aside when advising their Minister, to be loyal, no matter what the colour of the Government in power. That is a protection against arbitary government. It is a protection against ill-informed decision making. It ensures that all the options and the consequences are evaluated, canvassed and made known to the Minister. It ensures contrary to an interjection earlier from the Government side of the House, that a Yes, Minister approach is not adopted, that the Minister does know all the options and that the Minister does not get only the advice that is palatable to the party zealots, for the Public Service does not exist as an arm of the party in power. It exists to protect, look after and serve the community as a whole and if that Public Service is subverted to be a tool of the party alone, if advancement is to be on the basis of party affiliations or political views, a grave disservice is done to the community and a grave disservice is done to the Public Service itself. The whole notion of permanency of tenure, of security, of the Minister accepting responsibility for all decisions, even the decisions of the Public Service, is based upon the notion that the Public Service will be impartial and politically neutral. Once that doctrine is attacked permanency of public servants is gravely at risk for if the American system of "to the victor goes the spoils" is adopted-and that is the system that has been substantially adopted by this Government­ then when a new Government comes along it has to make sure that the Public Service serves it loyally and impartially. The new Government may have no alternative but to rid itself of those who have been appointed Or} a political basis. No wonder the General Secretary of the Victorian Public Service Association expressed grave fear at what was happening, an association that has never been aligned with my side of politics! No wonder the morale of public servants is low! No wonder Second Division officers are leaving the Public Service in droves! Why should they stay there if there is no future for them? What future is there for them under the system adopted by the Government; preferment of employment goes to those who are politically sound? There is no future for the honest, loyal public servant who seeks equally to serve successive Governments in circumstances such as that. The Hon. W. A. Landeryou-Are they the only qualifications: honesty and loyalty? The Hon. A. J. HUNT-Other qualifications are competence, of course, efficiency, courage-the courage to disagree with the point of view of the Minister where he is wrong. I invite members on the Government side of the House to look at the code of ethics prepared in 1965 by the Royal Australian College of Government Administration. It points out clearly the need for an ongoing Public Service, an ongoing, continuing, stable service, despite the changes of Government from election to election. It points out the need for loyal service to the Government of the day. It points out the need for services regardless of the colour of the Government. It points out the importance of those principles for the doctrine of continuity. Politicization ofPublic Service 19 March 1986 COUNCIL 107

Those principles are vital to the interests of the public and to the good government of this State. They are vital for effective and economic government, and they are equally vital to public servants themselves. Their future is being put at risk, their promotion is being put at risk by the policies of this Government. We condemn the Government for it and we reject that approach. It is a dangerous approach which must not be continued. The Hon. B. P. DUNN (North Western Province)-Blatant political appointments or, as Mr Hunt has said, jobs for the boys and girls, have been a regular feature of the Labor Government since it came to office in Victoria. The people of Victoria have come to expect it from this Government. It no longer attempts to hide its purge of our Public Service, boards, authorities and committees, which in the past were regarded as impartial with democratic appointments made on merit. The dark cloud of socialism is portrayed by this Government, which is controlled by the radical socialists who now comprise one-third of Cabinet, clearly have control and have forced their views on the rest of the Government and the Ministers whom one would regard as having some integrity. One knows that they are being controlled by the socialist left and that they have to bow to the socialists on many occasions. The hand of socialism and the socialist left has now extended into the political appointment area with the appointment of moles within departments to spy, vet, report, control and revolutionize the Public Service. Honourable members know what the Government is on about and we know that there are spies in the Public Service and that public servants are operating with people looking over their shoulders. The Public Service has had a fine record of impartiality and we, in the National Party, recognize that and pay tribute to it. The National Party has valued the Public Service for its decades of service to Victoria. As members of Parliament, we know that people in the Public Service have been prepared to serve basically under any Government or under any master of the day. In the past members of the National Party or the Opposition could contact officers of the various departments and make an appointment to speak to them on a person-to­ person basis. One could discuss individual problems that one had been confronted with in one's electorate, or a wide range of legislation and so on. In that way one could develop a liaison and personal contact with various members of the department. When I first came to this place, I would perhaps spend half a day or a whole day in the various departments, moving from office to office to meet the various officers to discuss problems associated with transport, the State Rivers and Water Supply Commission and so on. It is extremely difficult to do that today. The Hon. G. A. Sgro-Why? The Hon. B. P. DUNN-I shall explain why. It is because a large percentage of material that has been sought is received via the Minister's office. I know of some cases in which the information has been vetted by officers of the Minister's office before it comes into our hands. The Government has politicized the various departments, and the relationship that once existed between members of Parliament and officers of the departments has largely been eroded. Now political activists in the Australian Labor Party are blatantly infiltrating the Public Service. The Hon. G. A. Sgro-You mean members of the socialist left! The Hon. B. P. DUNN-Yes, members of the socialist left; Mr Sgro would know all about them. The socialist left has infiltrated all levels of Government decision making and responsibility. As I said earlier, public servants know they are being watched and in many cases they are afraid to speak out because they are worried about reprisals that may be made against them. 108 COUNCIL 19 March 1986 Politicization ofPublic Service

How many times have members of the National Party requested briefings with departmental officials only to find that the briefings are attended by Ministerial advisers? They act as watch dogs, plants, to report back to the Minister not only on what members of the National Party are thinking and saying but also on how the Minister's departmental officers are handling the situation. When one finds one is being watched by a person who has been politically appointed as an adviser to the Minister and who is a known Australian Labor Party activist, the confidentiality of the discussion is completely broken down. Thus many briefings become meaningless. We do not want these plants and spies in our meetings; we do not want them to be reporting back to the Minister on everything we and the officers of the departments say and do. We should have the right to arrange these briefings with members of the Public Service without the Minister ensuring that one of his people is sitting beside us. Morale in the Public Service is deteriorating. It is no wonder that that has occurred. Not only have the departments been politicized to a large degree but also they are feeling the arm of radical feminism. The Hon. M. J. Arnold-Big Sister is watching! The Hon. B. P. DUNN-The Minister for Conservation, Forests and Lands portrayed the radical arm of feminism and pointed out that it has its part to play in what is occurring in Government departments. This has been carried out under the banner of affirmative action. People who have worked in the Public Service for decades are being passed over when important appointments are being made. Their seniority and suitability are being overlooked. Radical feminists who are operating under the banner of affirmative action are ensuring that females are being appointed over these people even though they may be more highly qualified. Public Service appointments should be made on the basis of merit, and no other criterion should be taken into account. One should be considered on one's merits regardless of one's sex or race. That is not the case at present. This attitude has contributed to the low morale in the Public Service today and should be readily addressed by the Government. The National Party knows of cases where the politicization has extended to appointments to committees and boards throughout the State. The Government has appointed people whose thinking is in line with that of the Australian Labor Party. Probably the Ministers were the first to abuse their power. In some cases they appointed Ministerial advisers with known Labor Party affiliations. In many cases the people who were appointed as Ministerial advisers were defeated members of Parliament or defeated Australian Labor Party candidates. These people have been appointed to the important position between the Minister and his department. It is yet another spoke in the wheel, another step in the ladder, of socialism! The names of these people are well recalled by every honourable member. For example, Mr Graham Ihlein was appointed as a Ministerial adviser to the Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs. He is a defeated member of another place. Also there was Mr Phillip Staindl, who happens to be another Labor Party candidate who works in the Department of Agriculture and Rural Affairs as a Ministerial adviser. Mr Tony Sheehan, who is a defeated Labor Party member from another place, is also an adviser on the staff of the Minister for Conservation, Forests and Lands. Mr Robert Miller, who was a former member of another place, has also been appointed to the re~ulation review unit. There may well be some justification for his appointment to that poSItion and the National Party does not really oppose it, but it was a political appointment none the less. There are others but I shall not quote them all. Those sorts of political appointments have become the norm in the Public Service and the Ministers have made them without showing any sign of embarrassment. These sorts of appointments are made to hospital boards and education committees as well as semi­ Government authorities. If positions on the various boards come up for reappointment, the existing office holders are referred to the local Australian Labor Party branch committee Politicization ofPublic Service 19 March 1986 COUNCIL 109 for comment. If the local branch members give them the thumbs down, they are not reappointed. The Hon. w. A. Landeryou-Give us some evidence! The Hon. B. P. DUNN-I shall give you evidence. Those people are not democratically elected to those positions. The Hon. W. A. Landeryou interjected. The PRESIDENT-Order! I ask Mr Landeryou to cease interjecting. He will have ample opportunity of contributing to the debate later in the day. The Hon. B. P. DUNN-Thank you, Mr President. Members of the National Party know Ministers have made political appointments to various boards and committees by successfully removing long-standing members of those boards and committees who have often made a sound contribution to them over the years. The effect in these areas has been similar to that which has occurred in the Public Service. Public servants are reluctant to speak out against the inadequacies of the Government. If they do, they are fearful of reprisals because they may find themselves without a job when their time for reappointment arrives. Boards and committees are under tremendous duress not to criticize the Government, and to toe the line. They know that if they bounce the ball they will lose their jobs and a political appointment will be made in their stead. That is an intolerable and undemocratic situation. Who are these people appointed to these positions and committees? Mr Hunt has already covered the key areas in the Public Service. I shall cover some lesser but still important positions that have been filled by people of political backgrounds. Honourable members know about the appointment of Carole Marple as a landholder representative on the Land Protection Service. She will receive approximately $40 000 a year to act as deputy chairperson. There are two aspects of the appointment that concern members of the National Party. Carole Marple is filling a position designed specifically for landholders. What are her qualifications? She is a supervisor at the Benalla Adult Trainin$ Centre for Intellectual Disabilities; she is a trained primary school teacher and officer-ln-charge of the Benalla Education Unit. I do not argue with her qualifications in that field, but how does that give her expertise to act as a landholder representative? What is Carole Marple's farm experience? Her only experience is with an 80 hectare hobby farm. When asked about her experience on the land in the Stock and Land of 7 January 1986, she stated that she helped on the farm and the previous week-end had made casseroles for the shearers. She has been appointed to a position as a landholder representative above David Sexton, who had served on that committee for ten years and who was widely accepted by the farming community. Carole Marple stood as an ALP candidate for the Federal seat of Indi and the Senate and was twice defeated. She is the Chairperson of the ALP Rural Policy Committee. Those two qualifications do not equip her as a landholder representative. The Minister for Conservation, Forests and Lands makes no apology for Ms Marple's appointment and she is now attempting to sell it to Victorians. Members of the National Party and the farming community see her appointment in another light: it is a blatant political appointment. The Hon. R. M. HaIlam-And an insult! The Hon. B. P. DUNN-It is an insult. The Government passed over a person who had ten years' experience in that position and appointed Ms Marple from 60 applicants. The Government decided the best person for the job was a schoolteacher, with an interest in an 80 hectare hobby farm. It is obvious that she was appointed because she is the 110 COUNCIL 19 March 1986 Politicization ofPublic Service

ChairPerson of the ALP Rural Policy Committee and a twice-defeated Labor Party candidate. The National Party does not accept that she is not a blatant political appointment. Mr Stuart Morris has been appointed as head of the all-powerful Local Government Commission. His background is also that ofa defeated ALP candidate. It appears that that is a criterion for a job under this Government! The Government says, "If you do not win, do not worry, because there will be another prize awaiting you". The Hon. W. A. Landeryou-That didn't work in my case! The Hon. B. P. DUNN-It does not work all the time. Sometimes it pays and sometimes it does not, but it appears that once a person is a defeated ALP candidate, there is life after defeat because a job will be offered. Mr Morris is a well-known activist in the Fitzroy North branch of the ALP and I am sure honourable members on the Government bench know him well. The Hon. M. J. Arnold-Stuart Morris lives in Ivanhoe. The Hon. B. P. DUNN-I also refer the House to the appointment of Joan Creati-­ The Hon. M. J. ARNOLD (Templestowe Province)-On a point of order, Mr President, Stuart Morris lives around the corner from my place and belongs to the Ivanhoe branch of the ALP. The PRESIDENT-Order! There is no point of order, I am sure Mr Dunn requires no assistance. The Hon. B. P. DUNN (North Western Province)-I thank Mr Arnold for putting the record straight. Joan Creati has also been appointed as a member of the Local Government Commission. Although she is not a defeated Labor Party candidate, she was a private secretary to a Labor Party member. The National Party also has some concerns about her appointment and particularly her experience in local government. Another political appointment is Jill Milthorpe, who is also a twice-defeated Labor Party candidate for the electorate of Murray Valley. She is an ALP activist in north­ eastern Victoria and has been appointed to the Board of the Arts Centre and as a member of the Women's Advisory Committee to the Premier. The Hon. W. A. Landeryou-Dreadful. Fancy having an ALP supporter on that! The Hon. B. P. DUNN-The Premier can have who he likes on that committee, but it appears that one can be appointed to boards such as the Board of the Arts Centre only if one has the right political colour. Elwyn Rogers has been appointed as the Chairperson of the Regional T AFE Board in Mildura. She is also the president of the Mildura branch of the ALP and is a prominent Labor Party activist in that area. I am aware of other positions where secretaries and presidents of ALP branches have been appointed. I have been informed by one of my colleagues that the president and secretary of the Portland branch of the ALP has been appointed to a position on the Port of Portland Authority. These appointments indicate that the Labor Party has infiltrated the public sector from the Victorian Public Service through to local committees based on political affiliation and sympathy. The Government has no time for people with alternative political views. It will not tolerate free speech by people appointed to various boards and committees. If a person in those positions speaks out, he or she is sacked. Honourable members interjecting. The Hon. B. P. DUNN-People who have been appointed to boards and committees are under continual political duress by Ministers and the Government. Politicization ofPublic Service 19 March 1986 COUNCIL III

The National Party has confidence in the Victorian Public Service and in its independence and integrity. In the interests of good government, honourable members should ensure that its integrity is restored and continues. The National Party condemns the Government for its politicization practices which it has attempted to achieve in almost every level of the Public Service and Government involvement in Victoria. The National Party condemns the Government for the political appointments it has made to authorities, boards and committees. The Public Service should rid itself of these people at the earliest opportunity so that it can re-establish its democracy. The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for A~cu1ture and Rural Affairs)-We have been treated by the Leaders of both parties opposIte to an extraordinary performance. I could characterize it by saying that they have finally come to grips with the fact that the Labor Party has formed a Government. Mr Dunn has, in effect, told us that the Government has infiltrated the Government. He used this extraordinary phrase to suggest that the Labor Party-which in most normal parlance for members of the corner party is the only political party when politics is mentioned-has infiltrated the Government. The Hon. B. P. Dunn-The socialist left! . The Hon. E. H. W ALKER-I mentioned that only to compliment Mr Dunn in that he has endeavoured, albeit ineffectively, to address the matter ofpoliticization. That is what the motion is about. However, Mr Hunt, by dint ofa list and a couple of hours of rhetoric, proved that there has been a significant change in the number of appointments in the upper levels of the Public Service. He had no evidence to support this motion alleging politicization; he simply told us that this Government after four years, if one examines its record, has changed a significant number of top appointments in Government. He began by saying that he would prove that there have been jobs "for the boys and girls". He said that the Government was dealing in "positions of patronage" . However, he did not prove anything of that kind. He also said that the Government has sought to subvert the Public Service for its own sectional and political interests, and he did not prove that. All he said, when he went through his list at great length, was that some significant change had occurred at the top end. Perhaps it has at last come home to the parties opposite that the Labor Party is in government; that four years ago a change of Government occurred. Maybe Mr Hunt is suggesting that, with a change of Government, there would not be a reasonable or significant change in appointments that the Government has control over. Two kinds of appointments in the Public Service are made. Mr Hunt said he would speak about the senior appointments. That is the only area about which he can speak ifhe is speaking about Government appointments because Governor in Council appointments are those top level appointments of permanent heads, chief executives and executives of authorities. If Mr Hunt is challengin$ the objectivity of the Public Service Board and procedures used below that level, that IS a very serious claim. I hope he is not challenging it because it is a completely different matter. The Hon. M. A. Birrell-Those are section 32 appointments. The Hon. E. H. W ALKER-I accept that Mr Hunt is speaking about those appointments over which Cabinet has some control. At least, I hope that is what he was speaking about, although his remarks were not very clear. The Government has been meticulous in its appointment of senior public servants on the basis of merit. I will defend that anywhere and at any time. As the Leader of this House and of the Government in this House, I have been involved in almost all the senior level appointment interviews that have been conducted for Governor in Council 112 COUNCIL 19 March 1986 Politicization ofPublic Service appointments and I will not accept that anything other than the basis of merit has been used for those important appointments. If Mr Hunt is suggesting otherwise, that is a serious claim. However, he did not. All he said was that there had been a lot of change. Nevertheless, Mr Dunn has tried by innuendo and suggestion to imply that the Labor Party has somehow been infiltrating its own people on to boards and into departments. The Hon. B. P. Dunn-It is a fact! The Hon. E. H. W ALKER-What an extraordinary claim to make. He suggested, for instance, that Ministerial advisers are somehow political appointments. Of course, they are. They are appointed directly by Ministers; they are not public servants, they are on the Minister's staff at the Minister's choice and the appointment can be terminated by the Minister. It is not a matter of a Public Service appointment. Mr Dunn appears to be suggesting that these appointments are somehow sullying the good record of the Public Service in Victorian appointments. Mr Dunn should understand that they are not Public Service appointments. I am proud of the senior appointments that the Government has made, in all of which I have been a part. The Opposition has depended on a kind of sleazy implication, a kind of allegation approach-what one might call an innuendo. When Mr Hunt was speaking, he was embarrassed often enough because what he thought he had was a piece of information but it was not a piece of information. Often enough he had to depend on an implication that such and such occurred. I shall be interested to see how the people on his list respond to the way he has brought them into public view today. I should have thought he has done them a disservice. Mr Hunt suggested that of the 29 departmental heads who had been appointed when the Labor Party came to office-in fact, there were 33-only 3 remain. The Hon. A. J . Hunt-You should read the 1981-82 directory. The Hon. E. H. WALKER-On that interesting day when the Liberal Party handed over the reins of government, 33 departments existed. Mr Hunt did not know of four of those departments-he said that only three remained. While I was listening to Mr Hunt, I jotted down what has occurred to some of those departmental heads. Mr Hunt, by implication, has suggested that because only 3 remain, 26 were "pushed down the lift well". The Hon. A. J. Hunt-No, I made it clear. The Hon. E. H. W ALKER-Mr Hunt did not count Mr Alan Reiher. He was promoted to a higher position. The Hon. A. J. Hunt-I mentioned that. The Hon. E. H. W ALKER-Yes, but Mr Hunt said that only three remain. At least he might have counted Mr Alan Reiher. I have here a list offifteen people who are continuing to serve the Government in senior roles-many of them by choice and many because of the rationalizaion of three into one or four into two Ministries and, when that has occurred, those permanent heads or senior executives have remained on the same salaries and their services are being well used. It is a scurrilous impression given by Mr Hunt that the Government has somehow dealt with a whole category of people in an improper manner. That is entirely wrong. I listened carefully to Mr Hunt but I heard no statement that would sustain his motion. He gave no information about what he called "politicization". The Opposition has not been able to show that appointments have been made because of political affiliation or patronage at senior levels of Government. Politicization ofPublic Service 19 March 1986 COUNCIL 113

I leave aside Mr Dunn's comments about people who are known members of the Labor Party being appointed to a board somewhere. That is an extraordinary claim to make. I have been cheered up today. I had been feeling in recent times that after four years in government we had not really done enough with regard to appointments. On the Opposition's view, we have not done so badly. The Hon. M. A. Birrell-Y ou have gone far enough. The Hon. E. H. W ALKER-Mr Hunt was honest enough to bring up the point that the once head of the then Ministry for Economic Development was appointed by Mr Ian Smith. When Mr Landeryou became the responsible Minister, he worked with him and a proper relationship occurred, as did a proper separation of relationships. The Hon. A. J. Hunt-I accept that. The Hon. E. H. WALKER-When speaking to this motion, I do not intend to go through a whole range of appointments and political connections made by the Liberal Party when in office. Other speakers may wish to do so. However, it was clear that there were several appointments of a kind that one could not characterize as occurring within this Government. One could not say that Peter Batchelor's sister is a permanent head of anything, whereas one could have said that a person's brother or husband was a permanent head or something similar. It is possible to make a direct connection with some of the appointments made by the former Liberal Government. Mr Hunt has not been able to show any connection with senior appointments under this Government, but that is what he set out to do. The Government has been concerned to ensure the effectiveness and efficiency of the public sector. If we have done nothing else, we have brought about a much heightened level of good administration. We have taken a far higher profile than the previous Government in ensuring that the public sector has received the best available administrators. For this reason alone, chief administrators have been appointed on the basis of their skills, experience and capacity. I am once again speaking about Governor in Council appointments and I can vouch for that. The number of departments has been reduced from 24 or 25 to 13. They are headed by career public servants appointed from the Victorian, Commonwealth or interstate Public Services. A further seven people have business or academic backgrounds that make them qualified to hold their positions. Therefore, to some degree we have recruited from outside government and Mr Hunt would have to admit that a reasonable proportion of that kind of person is also necessary to maintain good government. The remaining three vacancies are still to be filled and therefore cannot be talked about in this debate. All permanent outside appointments to the Public Service are vetted by the Public Service Board and the details of those appointments are published. Many competent management, finance, systems or personal specialists have been recruited and the Government is proud of that fact. A major revolution has taken place in this regard. History will reflect that one of the great successes of the Government has been its capacity to attract excellent people to senior appointments. Sir Robert Menzies said to aspiring politicians "you may think it is the legislation you pass; forget it. It is the appointments you make that matter". I stand behind all the actual appointments made by the Government and I am sure that history will show that they have been good appointments. Inside appointments are subject to appeal by an independent body such as the Promotions Appeal Boards, or the Public Service Board and therefore there are proper checks and balances on these appointments. 114 COUNCIL 19 March 1986 Politicization ofPublic Service

Let me say as clearly and strongly as I can that political affiliation has played no role in Public Service appointments or the retention of senior personnel. There are those within the Labor Party who might say that we were wrong to take that view; there are those who might say that if one is to govern in full knowledge of new policy as a new party in Government, one would be wiser to make significant numbers of choices of people who came from within that party structure for that reason. The Government says "No". It chooses on the basis of merit, capacity and skill. Suitability and merit has been an absolute consistent basis. It is interesting to note the voting preferences of the vast majority of senior public servants appointed by Cabinet, which were not known by me or any of my colleagues at the time of the interview, nor was the question ever asked. I can cite different figures on that point-not those figures because we do not have them-but I can give figures to show that preferences were not asked for and in the majority of cases were not known. That may be the case for the Liberal Party as well. However, maybe the Liberal Party does ask, "what party do you belong to", but it was never asked in Labor Party ranks. Taking an example that arose earlier today, recently a senior level appointment of great merit was made and I wonder whether the Opposition seriously suggests that John King, appointed as head of the Law Department, is a Labor man? Does anyone seriously suggest that he is in some way tarred with the Labor brush? It can be assumed that some chief administrators are members of opposition parties, but it should not cause grave concern and it is of no grave concern to the Labor Party. It is assumed that some chief administrators are supporters of opposition parties but it is interesting that the public opinion polls consistently suggest, and this is a point that might interest Mr Storey, that people with the necessary education and skills to do the sorts of jobs that we are talking about are more likely to be Labor supporters. That is a sheer statistical fact. It is more likely that people with the skills needed for chief administrators vote Labor. Relevant to the Opposition's claim is the fact that public opinion pol1s have confirmed a consistent level of greater support for the Labor Party rather than the Liberal Party by the tertiary educated, professional and upper-income groups in Victoria. Unfortunately, some members of the Labor Party will say it is a dreadful and unfortunate situation that the people who are tertiary educated or who are in the upper-level income bracket with a professional background tend to get the top jobs. Some people within the Labor Party say why not give the job to someone who has proven himself as, for example, a decent shop steward or a union representative? Why do we go for the tertiary educated high-income professionals? It is interesting that those groups are consistently shown in the polls to support, to a far greater degree, the Labor Party rather than the Liberal Party. Therefore, the pool from which one chooses is a pool which, as shown in the Morgan Gallup poll, favours the Labor Party. It does not say they are members of the Labor Party, it just says that they favour it. The Morgan Gallup poll of January 1986 shows that 46·1 per cent of the tertiary educated group supported the ALP and only 41·2 per cent supported the Liberal Party. That is not a huge difference-about 5 per cent but the same source indicates that 55·3 per cent of the professional group supported the ALP as against 34·1 per cent of the Liberal Party, and this is more dramatic. This may surprise some people because it was always something of a myth during the years when the Liberal Party was in office that it somehow had the bulk of the support of the professional groups. The poll also suggests that 43·6 per cent of those people with an income of$30 000 and over, the top income people, supported the ALP as against 36·6 per cent for the Liberal Party. Politicization ofPublic Service 19 March 1986 COUNCIL 115

Therefore, on a professional basis, tertiary educated upper-income people prefer the Labor Party. There are those within the party who worry about those statistics and suggest that we might be attracting too many of those types of people. It is interesting when one examines those groups that the approval rating from the tertiary educated people for the Premier is 64 per cent and for the Leader of the Opposition, Mr Kennett, 27 per cent. Even more dramatic is the fact that, as shown in the Morgan Gallup poll of January 1986, 6D-6 per cent of the professionals support the Premier and 31·1 per cent support the Leader of the Opposition. Thirdly, 65·2 per cent of the high­ income earners support the Premier and 22·2 per cent support Mr Kennett, so the statistics are interesting across the Board. My point is that the pool of people from which one would be expected to draw chief admmistrators is, to a tremendous degree, supportive of the Labor Party. I suppose it would not be a surprise to suggest that people who come in to apply for jobs and to get into the Public Service and have the talent to become chief administrators could be exected to be ALP supporters, or at least a reasonable proportion of them would be. That may be an awful surprise for Mr Dunn. It may be a shock to think that when they talk about politics coming into Public Service appointments that is what is usually meant­ that the Labor Party has infiltrated it; but the picture is clear from the Morgan Gallup poll. The implications of the figures I have put before the House is that ifpeople are appointed to senior positions in the Public Service on merit, it is likely that a preponderance of them will support the ALP and the Premier. There is no doubt about that and the figures show it. One would expect this to be the case because the Labor Party is the party of reason and reform and, therefore, it is no wonder that it attracts those people. To be fair, the Liberal Party is a party of conservatism, and, I suggest, reaction. The National Party is-- The Hon. W. A. Landeryou-A cross between a donkey and a tupperware party! The Hon. E. H. WALKER-It is a right and a privilege of all public servants and citizens of Victoria to support and join political parties. That point should be made quite clear and I am sure the Leader of the Opposition in this House would not deny that fact. I hope the Leader of the National Party would not deny that fact either. If there is, in fact, a suggestion by the Oppositi()n that there is anything other than an absolute right to join or support a political party, the Opposition should speak now because that ought to be debated and it would be quite a debate, I am sure. That is a right that the Government has established. The Opposition's motion implies­ and I only say "implies"-in the words of Mr Dunn-that public servants should not have that right and that they should somehow be neutral and objective. The Opposition implies that a good public servant should not have a political affilIation. The Hon. B. P. Dunn-I did not say that at all. The Hon. E. H. W ALKER-The Government has recognized the right of public servants to belong to political parties if they wish. Guidelines for party political activities by public servants and Ministerial staff were issued in 1983 and are available if any honourable member wishes to see them. As Mr Dunn mentioned, Ministerial advisers are now an accepted part of Government. I have no doubt that if there is a change of Government in the dim, distant future, that role will be maintained. Ministerial advisers are now an accepted part of Government and provide a useful link between political parties and the Public Service. That is part of their role. Honourable members may think that is entirely too political but it is part of the role and it is important. The Hon. B. P. Dunn-What do the public servants think about that? 116 COUNCIL 19 March 1986 Politicization ofPublic Service

The Hon. E. H. WALKER-In fact, Ministerial advisers operate to limit the involvement of public servants in political matters. There is a strong element of protection at the political level of public servants because of the existence of Ministerial advisers. It is true of the Government from which we took over in 1982 that people were employed in advisory roles who were public servants and who to some degree had been compromised. That was not fair to many of those people. I suspect that the role of Ministerial adviser will continue. Career propects of public servants are not limited by political adviser positions. In no sense are those prospects limited. A number of public servants are advisers to Minister and the Opposition. Mr Ounn cannot say that the briefings he has obtained have not been given in the best sense. Ifhe feels they are not offered in the best sense, then he should tell me so. I have not heard any comment along those lines. Members of the Opposition deserve advice. The guidelines of 1983 reaffirm that Government employees have the same rights as other citizens to freedom of political association. Those guidelines allow public servants to be involved in political activity outside working hours, provided it is clearly undertaken in a private capacity. That must occur. They also take into account any conflict of interest which may arise with official duties by specifying procedures to be followed in this event. The guidelines are very clear. Let us consider what the public servants themselves think. A Public Service Board survey was conducted in 1984. That was a survey of staff attitudes within the Public Service. It reported a very low level of discrimination because of political affiliation. The question asked of a vast selection of public servants was, "Do you believe there is any level of discrimination because of political affiliation?" Less than 8 per cent-7·8 per cent-of staff perceived some level of discrimination within the organization. I heard Mr Ounn saying that it is voiced around the Public Service-Mr Hunt says the same thing-that the Government infiltrated and gave promotions dependent upon one's known political affiliation. I resent that. I reject that claim outright. The Public Service Board survey makes it clear that public servants do not agree. The Hon. M. A. Birrell-But 7·8 per cent do. The Hon. E. H. W ALKER-That may be so, but 7·8 per cent is a very low figure. That was the same as the level of political involvement. The Opposition has succeeded only in revealing its own inadequacies. More sinister, however, are the McCarthyist tendencies within the Opposition. The Opposition has stated publicly that if elected it would sack certain senior pu~lic servants app

Ms Marple maintains that she fully understands the problems farmers are facing nowadays. Farming is very much like housework in that you go to bed thinking that you haven't done all that you wanted to do. You have to learn to live with a lot of frustrations." What a perfect appointment! The Opposition would be the last to suggest that it was not made on the grounds of anything but the fact that she was just an Australian Labor Party hack. Clearly that is all it was. It is not only the Liberal Party and the National Party that hold that view and say it is wrong; the Government's own members are also expressing their outrage. The Herald of 26 February did us a service by obtaining some of the classic, off the record quotes from Australian Labor Party back-benchers about Ms Marple. The article stated: Ms Marple, who unsuccessfully stood as a Labor candidate twice for the federal seat of Indi and once for the Senate was named deputy chairman of the board on January 1 by the Minister for Conservation, Forests and Land. Ms Kirner. The move caused shrieks of "jobs for the girls" from the State Government's back-bench. Politicization ofPublic Service 19 March 1986 COUNCIL 119

The MPs- That is, the Labor Party MPs: ... believe the appointment was unjustified. Ms Marple, they say, is a teacher and hardly qualified to wrestle with the problems of either noxious weeds or vermin. True, she has a "hobby farm" in Bena\la but that doesn't make her a genuine farmer, one Labor backbencher observed. That is a quote from members of the Government side of the House. The members involved will not go on the record, but the Herald helped us by recordin~ the fact that the feeling of disgrace about this appointment is shared by people of all politIcal parties. So, the Minister's mate got a job at last. Why should we have to pay? Why should the rural community have to put up with Ms Marple as their representative when she does not know anything about the board's role. That was example No. 1. I have only eight more examples to give. Who else can one think of who fits into the category of being one of the mates of the Minister for Conservation, Forests and Lands, a member of the socialist left and a person who really cannot get a good job if he tried-Eddie Beacham, of course! Honourable members know Eddie Beacham not in the role of a departmental adviser on a substantial salary like he has now; honourable members know what he said, did and did not do as a controversial Lord Mayor of Melbourne. To be fair to the Minister, she had some trouble getting him a job because when it was first floated within the Department of Conservation, Forests and Lands that the Minister wanted to get one of her cronies into a cosy position, the career public servants said, "No way-we want to appoint someone who can do the job, not just someone who is a member of the socialist left". The Minister was riled, but she fought back valiantly on behalf of her brother in arms. He now has a job as an adviser in the department. What benefits will Eddie Beacham bring to the Public Service? What was it lacking that it required to call on Eddie for assistance? I shall leave that to the Minister to answer. I cannot see what he will contribute. I see it as another job for the boys. Example No. 3 is Bob Ives. Do honourable members remember that name? He is the guy who was thrashed in the Nunawading by-election. My colleague, the Honourable Rosemary Varty, nods in appreciation. I remember Mr Ives well because he stood against me as the Australian Labor Party candidate for East Yarra Province. We beat him on that occasion, too. He went on to bigger times to fight for Nunawadin~, and lost. Far be it for this Government not to give him a job. He was quickly given a Job in the Law Department on a salary of $27000 a year. He was then given a second job in the Ministry for the Arts; so it is obvious that the Government looks after its mates very well. One queries whether he had to apply for the job and whether job vacancies were advertised. I doubt it and I shall go into further detail about that when I deal with the further examples. Mr Jim Betson is a name that is not as well known but who is just as much a political appointment. I will first provide the House with personal details of Jim Betson. He was the best man at the wedding of Robert Fordham, the Deputy Premier, but he went on to bigger things after that. On 20 April 1982 he took on the position of senior Ministerial adviser to the Minister for Education. I have no qualms about that as it was not a permanent position; it was a political appointment. However, his career path rocketed from then on. On 29 November 1982 Jim Betson snuck into the position of Assistant Regional Director (Resources), Tullamarine. However, he did not hold that position for more than a few days before he obtained another appointment up the ladder, because on 6 December 120 COUNCIL 19 March 1986 Politicization ofPublic Service

1982-seven days after his previous promotion-he was made deputy director of personnel. Here is someone who was a first-class political appointment at the beginning, as a Ministerial adviser, and who is now well attached to the gravy train. He was launched into the department as assistant regional director of resources and then deputy director of personnel. On 19 January 1983, barely a month after that second appointment, which was barely a week after the first appointment, he went up the ladder again when he was appointed acting director of personnel, industrial relations, and then on 15 February 1983, barely two weeks after that appointment he became the department's director of personnel, industrial relations. So from 29 November 1982, this Labor Party zealot went through four positions until he reached the highest position of director of personnel, industrial relations on 15 February 1983. He moved rapidly up the ladder and there is no doubt, from speaking with people within the Ministry of Education, that they regard him as being the Labor Party's spokesman at that level. He is a purely political operator but one who has obtained permanent tenure. Why should the taxpayer have to be saddled with public servants who are chosen on the basis of politics but who will stay on even when the Government changes? It is of serious concern to the Opposition. What will one do with these permanent people when a Government changes its political colour from time to time? I return to the fifth example: Mr Ralph McLean, better known as Councillor Ralph Mc Lean of the Labor Party, controlled Fitzroy City Council. When he was elected mayor in 1984 he was regarded as a rather controversial mayor for reasons not related to his portfolio and which I personally do not regard as being necessarily the reason for the subject of controversy. He was the first publicly proclaimed gay mayor in Australia. Ralph Mc Lean got a job under section 32 of the Public Service Act, which I wish to explore. He is now manager of policy review and development in the Health Department Victoria. I wanted to know about the position because this Labor Party appointee certainly stood out from the crowd. He did not come up through the ranks, nor was he brought in from somewhere else because of his brilliance. It looked like another job for the boys. That is exactly what it was. When I applied under the Freedom of Information Act for all the details relating to Mr McLean's appointment, I was told, ~~No, you cannot have them. We do not want you to know". That matter is pending a court appeal because the Opposition wants those documents so that it will know whether the people appointed under section 32 of the Public Service Act are the people who should be appointed. For those who do not know, section 32 of the Public Service Act is the back door way to get into the bureaucracy without going through all the normal procedures. It covers the exceptions to the rule; that is, one cannot find someone else in the Public Service who will apply for the job, there is no one else around and, therefore, one can make an appointment which the Public Service Board then ratifies. It does not go through the normal vetting process. This section of the Public Service Act is being used as the open door for political appointments. If the Government is going to use that back door, it should have the guts to explain why those people were appointed in that irregular fashion. However, the Government has not done so; it has denied my freedom of information request for those details. One can only ask: What does it have to hide? I turn now to No. 6 on the list: Mr Stephen Perryman. Honourable members may remember the name Perryman in the context of the Oakleigh City Council-that squeaky clean council run by the Labor Party; that virtuous, efficient, undoubtable example of good local government! Stephen Perryman is the son of the former Mayor of Oakleigh, Councillor Perryman. Politicization ofPublic Service 19 March 1986 COUNCIL 121

Stephen J. Perryman has had an interesting career. Once again, he started his upward slide as a Minister's private secretary. He was private secretary to the Minister for Police and Emergency Services in another place-Race Mathews-whose electorate just happens to overlap the Oakleigh area. Once again, that does not worry me, as the position does not carry permanent tenure. However, mysteriously he disappeared from that job on 2 March 1984. I raised this matter with the Minister when I asked, "Where has Mr Perryman gone?" In a question that I had answered in the House on 4 April 1985, the Minister for Conservation, Forests and Lands, who coincidentally happened to be representing the Minister for Police and Emergency Services said, "Mr Perryman resigned on 2 March 1984". That was the answer. Where did he go? On 5 March, three days later, he conveniently got ajob in the Ministry of Transport. So I raised the matter with the Minister for Transport. I said, "I am interested in Mr Perryman. I understand he is a Labor Party activist in Oakleigh". Indeed, if I dig back into my history I can remember him at Monash University being on the other side of the fence to me politically. So I asked the Minister for Transport where Mr Perryman went. The reply was that Mr Perryman had become a research officer in the Ministry's industrial development directorate as from 5 March 1984. However, the interesting point was that the Minister agreed that the position was not advertised; that it was not an existing one and that Mr Perry man was not interviewed before commencing duty. So this Labor Party person got a job that did not even exist, that was not advertised and for which he did not have to apply! I suppose in answering my question on notice this information just got lost in the flotsam and jetsam of material that flows through the Parliament. However, in the context of a "jobs for the boys" debate it is rather stunning evidence that the Government merely creates positions willy-nilly to give its sons and daughters jobs. I do not know where Stephen J. Perryman now is in the State bureaucracy. He probably has a job somewhere else but I hope any future job he gets is on merit alone. The seventh on the list is Deirdre Mason, who got a very cosy job in the Ministry of Education. She is an equal opportunity officer on the Technical and Further Education Board earning $37000 a year. She is a well-known Labor Party activist. I do not want honourable members to infer anything improper, but she is also a close personal friend of the Minister for Conservation, Forests and Lands. She is also, coincidentally, the convenor of the Australian Labor Party's Status of Women Committee and is active in many of the teacher unions. Deirdre Mason has the $37000 job for the girls. All honourable members were perhaps not aware of this before, and one could say that, with the millions of dollars involved with the Cain Government these days, who cares about $37 OOO? The Hon. W. R. Baxter-I do! The Hon. M. A. BIRRELL-I do, too, and I think every Victorian will be outraged by these examples of political patronage. Earlier, when the Leader of the House was replying to the Leader of the Opposition in this House, he asked for more examples-here they are. Another example is David Hassett. Honourable members used to know him as one of our parliamentary colleagues in the other place, as he is a former member for Dromana, a one-termer-he went in and out as quick as a flash. He lost his seat but, not to be disappointed, the Government found him a job in the Health Department as administrator of one of the health centres in the Mornington area. This is another example of doubts about whether the appointment was made just because he was a former Labor Party heavy. 122 COUNCIL 19 March 1986 Politicization ofPublic Service

Finally, I shall give an example on which I shall conclude my remarks. This makes nine examples in all. I refer to Dr David Legge of the Health Department. The Minister for Health and I have spoken briefly about Dr David Legge before. In fact, I remember in one debate in the Hansard reports the fact that when I challenged Dr Legge's suitability and said that he was a bit of a hack the Minister for Health did not reply but the Minister for Conservation, Forests and Lands jumped in and defended him stoutly. Mr Arnold, who is interjecting, may know Dr David Legge better as the chairman of the Australian Labor Party health and welfare committee, and probably has bumped into him at Australian Labor Party headquarters. Dr David Legge has ajob of considerable influence in the Health Department and really isjust part of the political bureaucracy of the Health Department. As I said, he is chairman of the health and welfare committee of the Australian Labor Party; he is also co-ordinator of district councils, those controversial sections of the Health Department. The nine examples I have given of the politicization of the Public Service do not constitute an exhaustive list. They are simply indicative. One can put them all together­ Carole Marple, Eddie Beacham, Bob Ives, Jim Betson, Ralph McLean, Stephen Perryman, David Hassett, Deirdre Mason, and Dr David Legge-and one almost gets an ALP branch meeting. They could meet somewhere and elect office-bearers to go to an ALP State conference. My argument about these individuals is that they should not be permanent public servants; they should be on limited tenure. If they are political appointees, let that be an open fact and let it be known. Let them not have to be inherited by a subsequent government. The Hon. D. R. White-The Liberal Party employed David Legge! The Hon. M. A. BIRRELL-The Minister for Health misses the point. The Liberal Party will not employ people because they are Liberal Party supporters. The Liberal Party does not care whether a person is Liberal or Labor. I am aware that Dr David Legge was a member of the Syme-Townsend committee. That is fine. The Liberal Party, as I said, does not care whether a person is Liberal or Labor, but the Liberal Party is saying that a person should not be promoted to a position simply because he or she is Liberal or Lahor. The Liberal Party is contending in the examples that have been given and in many more that these people were promoted because of political connections and not on merit. Politicization of the Public Service is something that is deeply regretted by the Liberal Party. Section 32 appointments under the Public Service Act deserve closer scrutiny. They have been abused by the Cain Government. The Liberal Party today has proved beyond doubt that this process has gone the wrong way over the past four years and I hope, through debates such as this debate, that this process will be retarded. The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Health)-I take the strongest possible exception to the motion moved by the Leader of the Opposition in this place in so far as it affects the portfolios for which I have had responsibility and in so far as it concerns the names mentioned by Mr Birrell, and I shall explain why. There is absolutely no case: no case has been made out whatsoever by Mr Hunt in respect of my portfolios, or by Mr Birrell. On the changes that were made to the Health Department, to the State Electricity Commission of Victoria, to the Melbourne and Metropolitan Board of Works and to the Rural Water Commission of Victoria which preceded the appointments, I want to say this: firstly, concerning the Board of Works, Mr Hunt made the point that Alan Croxford got out first. Mr Hunt has circulated a document in which he states that Mr Alan Croxford "got out first". The facts are that Alan Croxford was on a term of appointment that concluded on 30 June 1982, which he fulfilled. I worked with him after my appointment as Minister of Water Supply. The Hon. R. J. Long-In opposition you always threatened to get him. Politicization ofPublic Service 19 March 1986 COUNCIL 123

The Hon. D. R. WHITE-The statement in the document circulated by Mr Hunt is wrong; it is a lie; it is absolutely incorrect. Alan Croxford fulfilled his term of appointment. In addition, the legislation which came into existence to create the positions of part-time chairman and full-time general manager of the board was passed in this House with the support of the Opposition. Concerning the appointments to succeed Alan Croxford, both a part-time chairman and a chief executive, neither person was known to me personally, either Ray Marginson or Russell Ingersoll, before the appointments were made. Further, when the chief executive was appointed, and that occurred after an exhaustive search process, the terms under which he was appointed included the condition that he would be fully responsible for the organizational structure and for the appointment of any individual at the Board of Works. Further again, and consistent with my responsibilities as Minister, I made it quite clear that I reserved the right to suggest names to him from time to time and to criticize proposed appointments, and it was made absolutely clear and adhered to without question that he would be responsible for the appointment of every person at the Board of Works in conjunction with the board and that they would be held accountable. There is no suggestion that there was any other practice at the Board of Works. As a chief executive, Russell Ingersoll is to the forefront of corporate chief executives in the country. When appointed to the board he had a work force of 8000, and he found 400 redundant jobs. Those 400 unnecessary jobs have been cut out. He cut the fat out of the Croxford system. There is no suggestion that in my capacity of Minister for Water Resources I conducted myself other than in accordance with Ministerial responsibility. The Hon. A. J . Hunt-You never pushed anyone down a lift well? The Hon. D. R. WHITE-The suggestion that Alan Croxford did other than fulfil the terms and conditions of his employment is incorrect. Secondly, dealing with the State Electricity Commission of Victoria, I make it absolutely clear that the legislation to chan~e the commission-and no one can doubt that the commission was in similar condItion to the Board of Works when the Labor Party Government inherited it-and to appoint a part-time chairman and full-time chief executive officer was a legislative measure that passed through this House with the support of the Opposition. As a result of the appointment as chief executive officer of Jim Smith­ a person not known to me who came from Telecom and was appointed following an extensive advertising procedure-on exactly the same terms and conditions as Russell Ingersoll, the Government was able to significantly change the confidence that the community had in the State Electricity Commission and was able, among other things, to get the resumption of work on the smelter project at Portland. If that appointment had not occurred and if that management change had not occurred the resumption of work would not have occurred and, having been a party to two years of extensive negotiation with Alcoa of Australia Ltd on that issue, I know that to be a fact. Jim Smith is in the forefront of corporate executives in the country and he is a great asset to the public sector. Thirdly, concerning the Health Department, I wish to make this clear: the change in the legislation to abolish the Health Commission and to establish the Health Department was a product oflegislation that passed through this House with the support of the Opposition. The appointment of the permanent head of that department was a product of the same advertising and search process that I used at the Board of Works and the same individual was involved in getting the brief for those searches, namely Leon L'Huillier, who happens to come from the corporate sector. It is difficult for people in the corporate sector to transfer to the public sector, but L'Huillier happens to be a person like Ingersoll and Jim Smith. I have been fortunate in 124 COUNCIL 19 March 1986 Politicization ofPublic Service attracting people of the first rank and the first capacity, and the appointment of L 'Huillier is on the terms and conditions that he is responsible for the appointment of individuals and for the organizational structure in the health area. There is no evidence in Mr Hunt's case in respect of the Board of Works, the State Electricity Commission or the Health Department ofany suggestion of political interference. In respect of the water supply area, the table says that Bromfield has retired. We retained David Constable, following the establishment of the Rural Water Commission as a product of the recommendations of the Public Bodies Review Committee. Those recommendations of that committee included a unanimous view that the position of the permanent head oUght to be changed. It was an across-party view of the Public Bodies Review Committee after extensive examination of the role of the permanent head of what was then the State Rivers and Water Supply Commission. The decision was not made by me in isolation but after extensive consultation with Dr Kevin Foley, whom I as Minister subsequently employed, that John Mann's position ought to be terminated. It was not a singular view of mine; it was a view across the political spectrum and a product of two years of extensive work. Although it did not appear as a separate recommendation in the report of the Public Bodies Review Committee, I invite Mr Hunt to talk to the honourable member for Frankston South in another place, Graeme Weideman, who happens to share part of his electorate, and ascertain whether it was a unanimous view of those who were active on the committee that that ought to occur. In respect of appointments to the Rural Water Commission, as Mr Baxter knows-he was consulted about the part-time commissioners there-the step was taken in a very considered fashion. Mr Baxter had some input into the matter of who was appointed to the commission. So much for political interference! We happen to have as head of the commission David Constable, a former commissioner in the State Rivers and Water Supply Commission after Bromfield retired, his natural successor, a chief executive of whom Bill Borthwick said that he was a person of the first rank. It is totally unreasonable for Mr Dunn to say that the Rural Water Commission remains inaccessible. The Hon. B. P. Dunn-I did not say that. The Hon. D. R. WHITE-The facts are that Constable is not only of the first rank, but also that the changes we made to the commission-- The Hon. B. P. Dunn-I did not say that. You twist it all around to suit yourself. The Hon. D. R. WHITE-Mr Dunn said in his speech that in the past he went to the State Rivers and Water Supply Commission and that it was more difficult today. The Hon. B. P. Dunn-I never said that. The Hon. M. J. Arnold-Yes, you did. The Hon. D. R. WHITE-The Rural Water Commission today more adequately reflects the views of irrigators than ever before-not Labor people, but irrigators. The major restructuring that has occurred over 50 or 60 years more adequately reflects and represents their view than ever before. No case has been made by the OpposItion in respect of those reforms. In a very idle fashion, Mr Birrell reflected on a couple of appointments out of the nine he named in the health area. Honourable members have already seen one demolition job done on him today in respect of the outrageous comments he made in relation to the appointment of a distinguished Queen's Counsel to the board of the Royal Melbourne Hospital. Ralph Mc Lean responded to an advertisement for SES 1 and 2 level positions within the Health Department. Consistent with the terms and conditions under which I employ chief executive officers, the terms and conditions under which he was interviewed and subsequently appointed to that job were the sole province of the chief executive at that Politicization ofPublic Service 19 March 1986 COUNCIL 125 time, Gad Trevaks. Moreover, the chief referee-the chief personal reference for Ralph McLean for that job-was Kevin Foley. David Legge's major political input into the health area in this State-and I had the opportunity of discussing this late last year with the late Sir Colin Syme-was when the Liberal Party was in office, under Vasey Houghton as Minister of Health, and the Syme-Townsend report was produced. The chief research officer to that report was David Legge. He has never had such conspicuous political prominence in the health sector since those days, and his appointment within the Health Department was the sole province of the chief executive. The principles of this debate surround the terms and conditions under which appointments of chief executive officers are made. I have gone to some lengths as a Minister of the Crown to identify people, none of whom was known to me in any sense with the exception of David Constable whom I regarded as of the first rank and who was from within the public sector. I knew of Paters on and I can also say that the referees whom I got to support Paterson's appointment as permanent head came from across the political spectrum. The Hon. A. J. Hunt-No doubt you read his paper, too! The Hon. D. R. WHITE-In addition to that, the people I have attracted to the State Electricity Commission, the Board of Works and the health area have had a tremendous impact. They make a significant new contribution and represent a significant asset to the wealth of the public sector. Moreover, the terms and conditions under which they have been employed on a contractual basis are such that they are responsible for the appointment of people within their departments, and they would be held accountable for those appointments. Not only are those the terms and conditions under which they were employed, but also those terms and conditions have been strictly adhered to. I worked at improving the quality of our Public Service by reforming the Board of Works, the State Electricity Commission, the Rural Water Commission and now the health area, and the Leader of the Opposition has not provided one example in his flimsy presentation today of that being other than adhered to. I have gone to substantial lengths to retrieve the State Electricity Commission, the Board of Works and the State Rivers and Water Supply Commission from the state in which I found them, and I have chan$ed them substantially in accordance with and in fulfilment of the Ministerial responsibilities I have undertaken. There is no suggestion other than that Ministerial responsibility has been fulfilled, and fulfilled honourably and properly. . It is interesting to note that there was a change in education when Mr Hunt was the Minister, a change in which he got rid of Shears. He liked to use some euphemism and to talk about a major change in the structure, about legislation and about nominations. The facts are that he wants to draw a distinction in that case and to say that there was something different about the State Electricity Commission, the Board of Works and the Health Department. I point out again that all of those changes in my areas ofresponsibility were the subject of legislative change that came before this House openly and in good faith, and the honourable member had the opportunity of responding to them; and in each case the Opposition supported the changes that I have made. The facts are that there is no suggestion in any of the portfolios for Which I have been responsible of any evidence to suggest political interference in appointments. No evidence has been put forward today; no case has been made. As I said by way of interjection during the course of this debate, what honourable members heard today was what we-Mr Landeryou and I-would have described in Opposition when we were down to nine members and only two of us were active-- The Hon. R. J. Long-You were pretty good then at dishing it out! The Hon. D. R. WHITE-We said that we were carrying Galbally in those last three years. We did not see the best of Galbally between 1976 and 1979, and what we are seeing 126 COUNCIL 19 March 1986 Politicization ofPublic Service from Alan Hunt today is the same sort of effort that we saw from Jack Galbally at the end of his career-a hopeless and pathetic performance! What we in the Labor Party did to bring some light into this place was that seven of those nine people-the exceptions being Mr Landeryou and myself-were turned over. We got rid of them and turned nine into twenty-two. With the exception ofEda Ritchie, the Liberal Party believes the Lawsons and the Guests of the world are here in perpetuity, that the "bunyip aristocracy" should be perpetuated. All that is missing is the titles! The Liberal Party believes that same practice ought to be followed in the Public Service as well and that public servants ought to have their jobs in perpetuity. The Government believes jobs should be awarded on merit and has appointed chief executives of the first rank, particularly in my portfolios. In the interests of a healthy Opposition in this State, the Liberal Party should begin to examine the example set by the Labor Party instead of asking us to perpetuate the rot in the Liberal Party by imposing that on the Public Service. We see today a group of people occupying the Opposition benches who will only keep the Labor Government in office for a long, long period, and we are witnessing them being slowly embalmed. The Hon. HADDON STOREY (East Yarra Province)-The Minister for Health did not carry through his analogy about the nine members of the Labor Party who were here between 1976 and 1979. He said that seven of them have gone; one has gone up and is now on the way down; and that that leaves only the Minister and it is his turn next. With the sort of performance the Minister has given today, his turn might well be next, because he has defended himself and left the rest of his party for dead. He has not said a word to defend any of the people in his Government who have made political appointments. He is obviously stuck; he is obviously worried and upset; and he is trying his best to defend himself and it does not matter what happens to the rest. The Minister's performance is an admission that the Government has changed the rules and it is now makin$ association with the Labor Party a prime consideration for appointments within the Pubhc Service. It is laughable to hear members on the Government side of the House say that political considerations have nothing to do with appointments to the Public Service today. The fact is if one talks to public servants in any department around the State, they will say that they are concerned for their futures because the avenues for promotion that were available have now disappeared unless they make themselves acceptable to the Labor Party. Public servants throughout Victoria have low morale and regard their whole futures as being in jeopardy because of the "jobs for the boys and girls" philosophy. Every time this happens the rest of the Public Service is plunged into gloom and despondency and that will mean that the Public Service will not be able to operate objectively, sensibly or give advice without fear or favour and perform their jobs in the interests of the community as a whole. Examples have been given by Mr Hunt and Mr Birrell and I shall add a little about the Ministry of Education-it is now a Ministry and not a department because the Minister decided he wanted to get rid of Dr Curry. The defence the Minister for Health put up for himself is not available to the Minister for Education. No legislation passed through Parliament to change the former Education Department to the Ministry of Education. In fact, virtually nothing has happened since, but the Minister chose the occasion to announce the restructure of the former Education Department and to form the Ministry to remove DrCurry. In Dr Curry's place the Minister appointed Mr Kevin Collins as acting chief executive. I do not have any concern about that appointment because Mr Collins is a professional and competent public servant, but he is now the acting chief executive. It should be called the "Acting Ministry of Education" because there is an acting chief executive, an acting director of curricula and an acting director of personnel; it has people acting in various capacities all over the place. It has had an Acting Chairman of the State Board of Education Politicization ofPublic Service 19 March 1986 COUNCIL 127 for approximately the past fifteen months and the Minister does not seem in any hurry to fill those positions. No doubt because he is looking for the right people who are acceptable to his party. What is happening within the Ministry of Education and being repeated throughout the Public Service is the influence of unions-a different form of politicization of the Public Service. This influence is seen to be carried out in the Ministry of Education because important changes are taking place there. When one examines those changes, one realizes that what is happening in every case is that unionists or former unionists have been put into positions of power and influence which will affect the whole presentation of the Ministry and the future of education in this State. Let us look at the way this is taking place in the Ministry of Education. First of all the Minister announced the reconstruction of the Ministry, without consultation with any of the sectors in education, without consultation with officers of the Ministry, the teachers, the parent organizations, or the principals' organizations. He simply announced that he had made the changes I referred to when Dr Curry was moved. Since then the Minister, in response to complaints about the lack of consultation, has appointed a consultative committee to examine the changes, and at the first meeting-or it may have been the second-the suggestion was made that the committee need not meet on a regular basis, just whenever it was required. In other words, the Minister was even endeavouring to eliminate the influence of the consultative committee. In the executive position the Minister has established a restructure project team, which consists of people from the Public Service Board-I do not have any comments about them-and five people from the education sector, but, of those five from the education sector, three are people with affiliations with trade unions in the education field. Once again, the dominant influence in the restructure project team from the education side will be from people who have backgrounds in the teacher union field or the trade union field. I mentioned Mr Betson, who has already been referred to by Mr Birrell; Mr David McCrae, who was the assistant secretary of curriculum of the Victorian Secondary Teachers Association, who was a consultant and was added to this team-I do not know under what authority-and one other person who was the senior industrial officer for the Victorian Colleges Staff Association. This is a case where three out of those five people have come in from union backgrounds to have a dominant influence in the restructure of the Ministry of Education. The Hon. B. W. Mier-What union are you in-the Law Institute of Victoria? The Hon. HADDON STOREY-If Mr Mier does not know what unions those people came from perhaps somebody can tell him. What is occurring in the education MinIstry is these people are being brought into these positions not through the process that the Minister for Health recounted-if they went through the process the Minister described it would be difficult to make an objection to those appointments, but they have not gone through that process but simply have been selected and put into those positions. What has happened with recommendations of the Blackburn report? That was a fundamental examination of what is happening in the education field and the proposals will have a tremendous impact upon the future of post -compulsory education in this State and will affect the lower years of education as well. The Blackburn report recommended changes to curriculum and the Minister set up a broadly-based group that looked at the principles to be adopted arising out of the report and they reached agreement on that. Part of that will be the creation of the new Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Board which will have the statutory power and duty to prescribe the curriculum requirements for Years 11 and 12, but within the Ministry the Minister has set up a unit that is already working on these curriculum questions and who is the executive officer in charge of this unit? Mr Bill Hannan, another person drawn from within the teacher movement; he has been with the Victorian Secondary Teachers Association for many years. Again he was simply brought into the Ministry, not through the proper appojntment processes that the Minister 128 COUNCIL 19 March 1986 Politicization ofPublic Service for Health described; he was simply brought in to head up that curriculum assessment committee. Once again, the teaching unions influenced the fundamental work done on the curricula in our schools. The other aspect of the Blackburn report was the reorganization of schools. That is creating a dilemma for the Minister for Education, but he brought it about because he established a task force to examine industrial relations aspects of the reorganization of schools in Victoria. The task force consisted only of members of the Ministry of Education and representatives of the teacher unions. The task force made recommendations covering a much wider field than industrial relations issues, and the Minister accepted the thrust of that report. In doing so, he brought upon his head a storm of protest from the traditional Labor Party supporters, school council organizations, school parents' organizations, principals and professionals within the Ministry who were totally neglected in that exercise. The Hon. C. J. Kennedy-For example? The Hon. HADDON STOREY-I have just given examples. The Hon. C. J. Kennedy-Do they have names? The Hon. HADDON STOREY-The President of the Victorian Federation of State School Parents' Clubs, Mrs McLeish, has criticized the Minister. Does Mr Kennedy want the names of all the other people who have criticized the Minister? Once again the Minister has allowed the teacher unions to dominate the reorganization of Victorian schools. They are three examples of the Minister for Education neglecting the professional public servants-the people who have worked within the Ministry of Education and the people who, through their positions, have an obligation to advise and to implement projects-and instead turning to people in the union movement to carry out those Important jobs. That is another example of the politicization of the Public Service. As a consequence of that, morale within the Ministry of Education is at rock bottom; no one knows what will be his or her future. Most employees of the Ministry cannot see a future unless they are able to comply with the requirements of belonging to the Labor Party or being Labor Party sympathizers. Many senior positions within the Ministry are appointed by selection committees. However, one should examine how the committees are fixed. "Fixed" is perhaps the right word to use, although that is not the sense in which I meant it. The selection committees comprise representatives from the teacher unions and other people who are invariably selected because they have been approved by the teacher unions. In that way, the unions dominate the selection of senior people within the Ministry and throughout its ranks. That is having a profound effect upon the morale of people within the Ministry who realize that, due to the politicization of the Ministry, they have no career paths. The proper role of the Public Service is being totally negated. One can examine all Government departments and find that situation repeated time and again. Specific examples have been provided by members of the Opposition. The Leader of the Government did not attempt to deal with those issues, other than to state that $ood people were appointed in place of the people who were pushed out of their positions, apparently because they were not suitable to the Government. The Minister for Health gave no response to the detailed account given by Mr Birrell, and no member of the Government addressed the fact that the General Secretary of the Victorian Public Service Association felt so moved by the situation that, for the first time since the Labor Party came to power, he was compelled to make public statements about the politicization of the Public Service. When comments such as that come from the Victorian Public Service Association, the Government should realize that the public is Politicization ofPublic Service 19 March 1986 COUNCIL 129 becoming aware of what is happening, and, more importantly, it should be aware that the Public Service is being undermined because of the process engaged in by the Government. The net results of the politicization of the Public Service will be that the Government will suffer and, more especially, the people of Victoria will suffer. Victoria will no lon~er have professional public servants able to give advice and work in a fearless and objectIve fashion and in that way perform a service that the people of Victoria deserve. I strongly support the motion. The Hon. J. H. KENNAN (Attorney-General)-Today honourable members have witnessed an indication of why the Liberal Party lost Government and why it remains so permanently entrenched in opposition. The failure of Mr Hunt to obey his Leader's instruction to remove Mr Reid from the front bench when the Leader of the Opposition was in the public gallery this afternoon, combined with Mr Storey's re-emergence from his long silence to make two speeches in one day, is an indication of the turmoil within the Liberal Party. Already honourable members are witnessing two or three unharmonious and dissenting groups squabbling and fighting among themselves. In his increasingly McCarthyist manner, Mr Hunt held up the spectre of "I have in my hand a list" in true Senator Joseph McCarthy style. Mr Hunt has chosen to table the list; it will do him no good and it will do the names on that list no good. In some cases, Mr Hunt purports to express sympathy with the v.eople on the list. One would have thought that if that sympathy were other than crocodIle tears, he would not have chosen to go about his task in the way that he has this afternoon. Mr Hunt's base proposition is that a considerable number of senior changes have been made in the Public Service in the manner of jobs for the boys and girls, as he put it in his opening remarks. Mr Hunt then produced a list that indicated quite properly that a considerable number of people have changed jobs due to what he asserts are "various reasons". During its last years in government, the Liberal Party failed to address the issue of management; it left an ossified structure in many respects. It is ironic that Mr Hunt dealt with the Law Department in such detail. When the Labor Party came to office, it was apparent that Mr Storey, a former Attorney-General, had left the Law Department in a state that was indicative of a failure to manage. Anyone who was familiar with the Law Department as it was in 1982 and as it is now knows that it is an infinitely better place now and has come out of the 1920s and into the 1980s. Mr Hunt ignored that point because he likes names. He likes to produce lists of names and put sensational tags behind them. He wants to haul through this House for the purposes of the press, lists of names and ask in his semi-puritan way what happened to a certain person and whether that person was pushed or shoved. Mr Hunt has missed the point and has proved that the Opposition is truly made up of yesterday's men. What the Government is on about is providing for the people of this State, in the public interest, the best managed Public Service that this State has seen. That is what the Government is on about. It is on about quality and good management, and that is the point that members of the Opposition-and one needs only to listen to the meaningless nature of their interjections--cannot grasp nor understand. I suppose it is a great loss for the community that this place has in it people such as poor old Mr Reid, who is interjecting, who really does not understand what management is all about. Mr Hunt referred to the Law Department. That is a department which, under the administration of Mr Storey when he was Minister, saw the position of secretary become so eroded that there was no central authority in existence, in an administrative sense. That department had no idea of programs or delivering programs; it had no idea of service to the community or customer service. That sort of administration led by the Liberal Party

Session 1986-5 130 COUNCIL 19 March 1986 Politicization ofPublic Service led to the courts still having an abundant supply of court forms in pounds, shillings and pence in the early 1980s. It led to a situation where, until the Labor Government came to power, the Supreme Court did not have a photocopier. the courts did not have electronic typewriters on which to type transcripts; and they still had the old purple gutsers in a 1950s reprographic machine. It is quite sad to listen to the interjections ofMr Reid. That is the sort of administration that Mr Hunt and his colleagues left in this State. Of course, one should not blame all the problems of the courts on Mr Storey, because he had the enormous misfortune to have Mr Wilcox take over three years before him, and then also Sir George Reid. The Hon. D. R. White-It had nothing to do with him. The Hon. J. H. KENNAN-Well, that is right. The Hon. M. A. Birrell-Do not respond to interjections. The Hon. J. H. KENNAN-I will not, unless they are good ones. This is the sort of management that Mr Hunt failed to understand. The Government has been concerned to give emphasis to good management, and that is what those changes have been about. Mr Hunt saId they were about jobs for the boys and girls. One of the first portfolios that appears on Mr Hunt's prepared list is that of the Attorney­ General. However, when the matter of Mr King is raised, Mr Hunt says, "I'm terribly sorry; that was a bad example. I make no criticism ofMr King. He is an outstanding public servant." Yet his is one of the names that Mr Hunt has dragged through the mud to demonstrate the proposition and to flesh out the general proposition that all that the Government was about was jobs for the boys and girls. What about Mr Kidston in the Office of Corrections? Does Mr Hunt suggest that Mr Kidson is not up to the job, that he is not the best corrections administrator in Australia? Does he su~est that Mr King is not the most effective chief administrator of a Law Department In this country? The Hon. A. J. Hunt-I am not complaining about them. The Hon. J. H. KENNAN-It seems that Mr Hunt wants to have his cake and eat it, too. He wants to refer to a list of names, but he does not want to consider the quality of the people who have been appointed. Having engaged in that deception, he is saying that these are the jobs for the boys and the girls. What Mr Hunt wants to do-and I can understand his discomfort-is to stand up and say, like Senator McCarthy, ~~I have in my hand a list" and what he says-- The Hon. A. J . Hunt-You are misleading the House now. The Hon. J. H. KENNAN-Mr Hunt is becoming upset, now. I wonder whether I can make his blood pressure rise even more and see how much more angry and nasty he can get! The Hon. A. J. Hunt-You are just misleading the House. The Hon. J. H. KENNAN-Mr Hunt has produced a list of names of individuals who do not have the same privilege to refute the statements he has made. Mr Hunt would not repeat his statements outside the House, where he does not have that privilege. If one were some decent honest person out in the community, how would one feel when one heard that the Leader of the Opposition in the Legislative Council had referred to his name and had attached to it words such as, "supplanted", "mutual", "abolished" or ~'restructured"? What sort of decent treatment is that? I say it is not decent treatment at all. However, not having been satisfied with the enormous damage that he has inflicted on those individuals who are not able to reply with the same privileges of Parliament, Mr Politicization ofPublic Service 19 March 1986 COUNCIL 131

Hunt does not want to consider the quality of the people that the Government has appointed. He says that the Government has made jobs for the boys and girls and that it is appointing its own team. However, when I start to go through the list of names of people who have been appointed to those positions, Mr Hunt is squealing and saying, "Oh, no, I am not complaining about that"; but he is complaining about the jobs for the boys and girls. I am sorry, Mr Hunt might not like it, but he will have to put up with it. Let me ask Mr Hunt whether Mr King is not the best administrator in the Victorian or any State Public Service in this country; whether Mr Yencken is not an outstanding appointment from the private sector; and whether Mr Kidston is not the best correctional services administrator in this country. Are these the jobs for the boys and girls? Are these what Mr Hunt was talking about? Of course, Mr Hunt has failed to make out his base proposition. If a reasonable person, acquainted with the portfolios, examined the management situation in the areas of planning, law and corrections when the Liberal Party left them and compared that with the situation in 1986, that person would find that a revolution in sound management had occurred. When one examines the administration of health, one knows that the Minister for Health went out and looked for the best administrator he could find; one also knows that the Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs did the same thing in regard to his portfolio. The same remarks can be attributed to all my colleagues. What has eluded Mr Hunt's argument completely is that the Government has been after quality in all those areas, but Mr Hunt was unable to make any argument about the replacements for these jobs, where replacements have taken place, other than this wild assertion that there have been jobs for the boys and girls. Again, the Liberal Party ought to make an apology. It is the second time today that the Opposition owes the community an apology. The Opposition has smeared the people whose names appear on the list that Mr Hunt produced; it has said that Mr Yencken, Mr King and Mr Kidston are mere appointments as jobs for the boys and girls. I am looking forward to Mr Hunt standing up in this place and, in his reply, doing the decent thing and apologizing to Mr Yencken, Mr Kidson and Mr King. I could ask any member of the House to go down to the offices of the National Companies and Securities Commission-which is probably a body that Mr Hunt has heard about­ and ask the people there how the Victorian Corporate Affairs Office is performing after six months of administration by Mr King. I can tell the House how it has been performing. It has a lower staffratio per corporation and per head than New South Wales. It is outperforming that State so much that companies are coming down to Melbourne to become incorporated and to issue the prospectuses, because the turnaround time in the Victorian Corporate Affairs Office is unbelievably good. That is the job that Mr King has done. But, of course, I know that Mr King is just a political appointment! It just so happens that it is a wonderful accident that he is a sensational appointment. Before his present appointment, Mr King was appointed by the former Attorney-General, Mr Cain, to head up the Courts Division as Deputy Secretary, Courts. Mr Hunt can ask anyone in the legal profession about the revolution that has occurred in the administration of the courts under the leadership ofMr King-and also the former Attorney-General who was very successful in that position, and I have to pay the same regard to him as I have to the Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs, who was also fortunate enough to be one of my predecessors. All those people have been appointed for one reason, and that is their quality. The Government is interested in good administration and good management in the public 132 COUNCIL 19 March 1986 Politicization ofPublic Service interest. I can assure honourable members opposite that all members of the Government are interested in only one thing, and that is performance in its agencies and departments. Of course, because the Government has given attention to those points, it has meant a restructure and there have been changes in personnel. Do members of the Opposition really think that the Government could inherit the broken-down structure that they left and make changes and improve performance without restructure and changes in personnel? It is the Liberal Party that has a laissez-faire and free enterprise approval. Where will the private sector be if this State adopted the approach that one never moves a top manager, but leaves him or her in the position for 5, 10, 15, 30, or 40 years? When 1 speak, as I often do, to the business community, 1 receive reco~ition of the policy that the top management positions of the public sector require changIng and moving around. Mr Bodna is on the "Senator McCarthy" list. Mr Bodna is now the Deputy Secretary, Corporate Management, of the Law Department and is doing an outstanding job in the performance of his duties. However, Mr Hunt did not mention that point. Mr Bodna is one of the most decent men in the Victorian Public Service; he is doing an outstanding job. The Hon. A. J. Hunt-Absolutely! The Hon. J. H. KENNAN-It is too late for Mr Hunt now. Mr Bodna's name appeared on the list with the reason given as "Forced transfer Restructure". The fact of the matter is that Mr Bodna is an outstanding public servant who is doing an outstanding job as a Deputy Secretary of the Law Department. This sort of list-wading that Mr Hunt has gone on with is indicative of the sterile behaviour he has demonstrated. One of the most fanciful suggestions of all times was that I employ people in my policy and research unit for reasons other than merit. Mr Hunt made a comment that I had not heard of-I will be delighted if it is true, although 1 was not aware of it-that the Society of Lab or Lawyers has become involved with the paperless court business before cases reached the courts. That is news to me. Anyone vaguely familiar with the Society of Labor Lawyers would know how hilarious is that outrageous comment. I wish we were computers! The policy and research unit of the Law Department is recognized as having delivered an amazing program of law reform through this House, 99·9 per cent of which the Liberal Party has supported. Mr Hunt applauds many of the law reform measures the Government has introduced which have originated from the policy and research unit of the Law Department. Some of Mr Hunt's conservative mates have come up to me at times, in various places, and said, "Good on you; it's a pity the Liberal Party could not have done those things when it was in office". The Liberal Government could not introduce reform measures-Mr Storey took a few of those suggestions to Cabinet, but Cabinet rolled him. After that, other reforms could not be undertaken because Mr Storey was not running the department properly and he did not have the personnel in policy and research to deliver the goods. Outstanding people work in the policy and research unit. Its services are available to Mr Chamberlain and the honourable member for Bendigo East in another place. It gives them briefings, which they find helpful. We get the program through and introduce law reform in the public interest. What does Mr Hunt say about people working in the public interest which accords with the views of the Law Institute of Victoria, the legal profession and a whole range of other people? What does Mr Hunt say about those people? He says they were not appointed on merit or that they are no good; that they happen to be associated with some fictional society-on the Society of Labor Lawyer's computer list. Mr Hunt does not just do that; having his hand on "Senator McCarthy's" list, he is now referring "Senator McCarthy" to other lists. They will never transpire; they are fictional. It is a complete "Joe McCarthy" stunt all over again. It is not an argument that Mr Hunt has put forward in the public interest. . . Politicization ofPublic Service 19 March 1986 COUNCIL 133

I shall make a final comment about the Liberal Party. The Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs was right when he said that the Liberal Party is concerned with the born-to­ rule syndrome. Liberal Party members thought they would be running this State forever. They thought they did not have to manage the State, that they could go to golf and do other things and did not have to worry about restructures, proper budgeting techniques, delivery of better services to the community or making departments such as the traditional English-looking Law Department more client-customer-oriented, because they were born to rule. Liberal Party members have now found that the dream has come to an end. Suddenly, well into the fourth year as an opposition, Liberal Party members have found that they are no longer born to rule; they are in opposition. Victoria has a real Government. It is really offensive to the born-to-rule ··lot" when a Labor Government actually governs. It is bad enough that it is holding office; that is okay so long as it is temporary, and if it does not do much it can be kicked out of office, but when the Victorian Government and other Labor Governments in Australia are governing it has put them in crisis and we witness the sort of miserable performances that honourable members have seen today. On behalf of all the people whose names appear on the list that Mr Hunt has produced and on behalf of all the people who have filled the jobs that Mr Hunt has referred to as being vacated, I offer an apology because it is a shame for the Government to have to participate in a Parliament where people like Mr Hunt sit and do enormous dama$e to people in the community. What the Government is on about, is exactly what the Opposltion is on about and the people who have jobs in top positions are on about; that is governing and administering the State in the public interest and the Government will not be deflected by this motion. The Hon. J. V. C. GUEST (Monash Province)-The Minister for Health brought my name into this matter, so I feel disposed to make remarks which involve some reminiscences of my own. The Minister for Health remembers when he and Mr Landeryou-by the way, what happened to Mr Landeryou-used to carry Mr Galbally. I am starting from where the Minister started. I do not remember them carrying Mr Galbally! I thOUght he made an extremely $ood use of a procedure we do not have readily available to us on the motion for the adjournment of the House. Mr Galbally-it was not the Minister for Health or Mr Landeryou-used to write the Parliamentary report for the Age the following day. He may not have done the mUCkraking work that the Minister for Health specializes in, did not burrow into what was essentially a trivial affair, namely, the so-called Housing Commission land scandal, but he certainly was the one who articulated the leading speech on an adjournment debate. It is interesting to note the light that the remarks of the Minister for Health about Mr Galbally throw on the attitude towards people in the public sector; that the Minister should so defame his former Leader without any sense ofloyalty or any compunction about damaging the reputation of somebody who cannot answer, or hurting his family. The PRESIDENT-Order! I warn the Minister for Health for the last time. He was heard in total silence and I expect him to give the same courtesy to other speakers. as well. The Hon. J. V. C. GUEST-I did not expect the Minister to respond with the same courtesy, but I shall try to ignore the discourtesies that one expects from him. The Minister for Health should be judged on his remarks in this debate. He makes reflections on the Leader of the Opposition, but under the procedures which apply when the Liberal Party and National Party together have the numbers-which they have in this House-he has 24 hours' notice. My party does not have the luxury that he had in opposition, of being able to launch unsubstantiated remarks, muckraking and diatribe with practically no warning. He has been able to put together a case in 24 hours, and it is not much of a case when considered in that way. It is a pity that his standards of research have dropped. At least he used to be accurate when he spoke about the Liberal Party and other people, from time to time. He used to raise such important issues, for example, he identified a young man