DAILY

YOUR VOICE IN PARLIAMENT

THETHE SECOND FIRST MEETING MEETING OF THE O FSECOND THE FIFTH SESSION SESSION OF OF THETHE ELEVEN TWELFTHT HPARLIAMENT PARLIAMENT TUESDAY 10 NOVEMBER 2020

ENGLISHMIXED VERSION VERSION HANSARDHANSARD NO. NO: 193 200

DISCLAIMER Uno cial This transcript of Parliamentary proceedings is an uno cial version of the Hansard and may contain inaccuracies. It is hereby published for general purposes only. The nal edited version of the Hansard will be published when available and can be obtained from the Assistant Clerk (Editorial). THE SPEAKER The Hon. Phandu T. C. Skelemani PH, MP. DEPUTY SPEAKER The Hon. Mabuse M. Pule, MP. (Mochudi East)

Clerk of the National Assembly - Ms B. N. Dithapo Deputy Clerk of the National Assembly - Mr L. T. Gaolaolwe Learned Parliamentary Counsel - Ms M. Mokgosi Assistant Clerk (E) - Mr R. Josiah CABINET His Excellency Dr M. E. K. Masisi, MP. - President

His Honour S. Tsogwane, MP. (Boteti West) - Vice President Minister for Presidential Affairs, Governance and Public Hon. K. N. S. Morwaeng, MP. (Molepolole South) - Administration

Hon. K. T. Mmusi, MP. (Gabane-Mmankgodi) - Minister of Defence, Justice and Security Hon. Dr L. Kwape, MP. (Kanye South) - Minister of International Affairs and Cooperation Hon. E. M. Molale, MP. (Goodhope-Mabule ) - Minister of Local Government and Rural Development Hon. K. S. Gare, MP. (Moshupa-Manyana) - Minister of Agricultural Development and Food Security Minister of Environment, Natural Resources Conservation Hon. P. K. Kereng, MP. (Specially Elected) - and Tourism Hon. Dr E. G. Dikoloti MP. (Mmathethe-Molapowabojang) - Minister of Health and Wellness Hon. T.M. Segokgo, MP. (Tlokweng) - Minister of Transport and Communications Hon. K. Mzwinila, MP. (Specially Elected) - Minister of Land Management, Water and Sanitation Services Minister of Youth Empowerment, Sport and Culture Hon. T. M. Rakgare, MP. (Mogoditshane) - Development

Hon. A. M. Mokgethi, MP. ( Bonnington North) - Minister of Nationality, Immigration and Gender Affairs Hon. Dr T. Matsheka, MP. (Lobatse) - Minister of Finance and Economic Development Hon. F. M. M. Molao, MP. (Shashe West) - Minister of Basic Education Minister of Tertiary Education, Research, Science and Hon. Dr D. Letsholathebe, MP. (Tati East) - Technology Minister of Mineral Resources, Green Technology and Hon. L. M. Moagi, MP. (Ramotswa) - Energy Security

Hon. P. O. Serame, MP. (Specially Elected) - Minister of Investment, Trade and Industry Minister of Employment, Labour Productivity and Skills Hon. M. Balopi, MP. (Gaborone North) - Development

Hon. M. Kgafela, MP. (Mochudi West) - Minister of Infrastructure and Housing Development

Assistant Minister, Presidential Affairs, Governance and Hon. D. M. Mthimkhulu, MP. (Gaborone South) - Public Administration Assistant Minister, Local Government and Rural Hon. K. K. Autlwetse, MP. (Specially Elected) - Development Assistant Minister, Local Government and Rural Hon. S. N. Modukanele, MP. (Lerala -Maunatlala) - Development Assistant Minister, Agricultural Development and Food Hon. B. Manake, MP. (Specially Elected) - Security

Hon. S. Lelatisitswe, MP. (Boteti East) - Assistant Minister, Health and Wellness

Hon. N. W. T. Makwinja, MP. (Lentsweletau-Mmopane) - Assistant Minister, Basic Education

Hon. M. S. Molebatsi, MP. (Mmadinare) - Assistant Minister, Investment, Trade and Industry Assistant Minister, Youth Empowerment, Sport and Culture Hon. H. B. Billy, MP. (Francistown East) - Development Hon. M. R. Shamukuni, MP. (Chobe) - Assistant Minister,Tertiary Education, Research, Science and Technology MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT AND THEIR CONSTITUENCIES

Names Constituency

RULING PARTY ( Democratic Party) Hon. L. Kablay, MP. (Government Whip) Letlhakeng-Lephephe Hon. Dr U. Dow, MP. Specially Elected Hon. M. R. Reatile, MP. Jwaneng-Mabutsane Hon. P. Majaga, MP. Nata-Gweta Hon. J. S. Brooks, MP. Kgalagadi South Hon. C. Greeff, MP. Gaborone Bonnington South Hon. T. Letsholo, MP. Kanye North Hon. T. F. Leuwe, MP. Takatokwane Hon. T. Mangwegape-Healy, MP. Gaborone Central Hon. S. N. Moabi, MP. Tati West Hon. T. Monnakgotla, MP. Kgalagadi North Hon. P. K. Motaosane, MP. Thamaga-Kumakwane Hon. O. Regoeng, MP. Molepolole North Hon. J. L. Thiite, MP. Ghanzi North OPPOSITION (Umbrella for Democratic Change) Hon. D. Saleshando, MP. (Leader of Opposition) Maun West Hon. P. P. P. Moatlhodi, MP. (Opposition Whip) Tonota Hon. D. L. Keorapetse, MP. Selebi Phikwe West Hon. Y. Boko, MP Mahalapye East Hon. Dr K. Gobotswang, MP. Sefhare-Ramokgonami Hon. C. K. Hikuama, MP. Ngami Hon. K. K. Kapinga, MP Okavango Hon. G. Kekgonegile, MP. Maun East Hon. A. Lesaso, MP. Shoshong Hon. T. B. Lucas, MP. Bobonong Hon. M. G. J. Motsamai, MP. Ghanzi South Hon. K. Nkawana, MP. Selebi Phikwe East Hon. O. Ramogapi, MP. Palapye Hon. Dr N. Tshabang, MP. Nkange Hon. D. Tshere, MP. Mahalapye West Hon. M. I. Moswaane, MP. Francistown West () Hon. T. S. Khama, MP. Serowe West Hon. L. Lesedi, MP. Serowe South Hon. B. Mathoothe, MP. Serowe North (Alliance for Progressives) Hon. W. B. Mmolotsi, MP. Francistown South TABLE OF CONTENTS THE FIRST MEETING OF THE SECOND SESSION OF THE TWELFTH PARLIAMENT TUESDAY 10TH NOVEMBER, 2020

CONTENTS PAGE (S) SPEAKER’S REMARKS ...... 1

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER ...... 1-13

STATEMENT Parliamentary Committee on Intelligence and Security Services...... 14-22

Tuesday 10th November, 2020 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

Tuesday 10th November, 2020 ministry, had requested for a method to procure another environmental consultant which was approved by THE ASSEMBLY met at 2:00 p.m. Ministerial Tender Committee (MTC) in October 2020 (THE SPEAKER in the Chair) but has been affected by the case which is now at the Court of Appeal. P R A Y E R S Mr Speaker, the Kgalagadi North and Ghanzi South * * * * Water Supply Project was to be implemented within SPEAKER’S REMARKS a total of 24 months; four months for preliminary design, two months tender management and 18 months MR SPEAKER (MR SKELEMANI): Order! Order! construction if it was not as a result of the legal delays. Honourable Members, good afternoon. Let us start our Mr Speaker, it is worth noting that currently Macheng business of today with questions. As you know, today is Cluster which is mostly affected, has a demand of a clear day which is supposed to allow you, if that time 1.34 million litres per day against a supply of 0.833 is possible, to go over the State of the Nation Address so million litres per day showing a deficit of 0.503 million that we can start the debate tomorrow. litres per day. Macheng Cluster Villages are supplied QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER from five boreholes - three in Lehututu and two in Lokgwabe. Supply is augmented by bowsing water WATER SHORTAGE IN KGALAGADI NORTH from Kang village, which is 110 kilometres (km) MS T. MONNAKGOTLA (KGALAGADI NORTH): away, with six bowsers (two new bowsers and four old asked the Minister of Land Management, Water and bowsers), supplying a total of 0.096 million litres per Sanitation Services if he is aware that the people of day. Kgalagadi North continue to experience serious water Mr Speaker, my ministry, through Water Utilities shortage due to the ongoing court cases; and to further Corporation (WUC) has procured 20 water bowsers, state what he intends to do as a matter of urgency as 12 of which the supplier has delivered, and the rest bowsing has dismally failed to address the problem. expected to have been delivered by December 2020. Of these, two of them have been released to Hukuntsi MINISTER OF LAND MANAGEMENT, WATER Cluster in addition to the four that was supplying to AND SANITATION SERVICES (MR MZWINILA): relief the water challenge in the area at 0.096 million Thank you Mr Speaker. litres per day over a distance of 110 km from dedicated Mr Speaker, I am aware of the court case, which in fact boreholes, while two others supply Kang village. This has two cases regarding the project that is planned to has increased supply to 0.12 million litres per day. In a supply Kgalagadi North with water from Ncojane/ day, six bowsers are operating carrying two loads each; Macheng Wellfields, Engineering and Environmental which is 12 loads of bowsers. Components. The Engineering Tender has been with Mr Speaker, this Honourable House will recall that in High Court for 21 months since February 2019 to date my response to a similar question which was asked (Case Number UAHGB-000233-18) lodged by S.R.R by the Honourable Member on the 29th of July 2020, I th Engineers (PTY) Ltd. The case was heard on 20 promised that the rest of the bowsers would have been October 2020 and the judgement has been scheduled to delivered by September 2020 which, unfortunately did be issued in February 2021. not happen as a result of logistical challenges brought about by COVID-19 pandemic. The said bowsers Mr Speaker, the Environmental Tender was disputed were purchased from Scania who were able to meet from December 2018 to date, which is 24 months; our specification for off-road and difficult terrain (Case number MAHGB-000-426-19) lodged by E.I.A vehicles. Hence, manufacturing to such specification is Projects (PTY) Ltd. E.I.A Projects (PTY) Ltd issued undertaken in Brazil, and you will recall that the country an urgent application at the High Court in July 2019 and was among the most affected by the pandemic in the the matter was dismissed with costs on the 17th August initial stages. 2020. However, E.I.A Projects has since approached the nd Court of Appeal on the 22 September 2020 challenging In addition, my ministry through Water Utilities the High Court ruling. The procuring entity, which is my Corporation (WUC) has finalised a tender for

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procurement of bowser services from private sector and On the other issue of an urgent application, I am not is due for closure by end of November 2020. Private sure whether we can do an urgent application to the sector bowsers will assist to augment water supply Administration of Justice because we are the ones who challenges across the country and combat COVID-19. have been taken to court by those two contractors. I The initiative will effectively start by December 2020 thank you. on a case by case basis depending on criticality and compliance. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Supplementary.

Moreover, my ministry is aware that this effort is not MR SPEAKER: Further supplementary. Honourable… fully addressing the water supply challenges in the area. The implementation of the Macheng Wellfield- HONOURABLE MEMBER: Here! It is Majaga here. Kgalagadi North Water Supply project is the major solution to the region water supply, but this solution is MR SPEAKER: Yes madam. in the court system at the present moment. As a ministry, HONOURABLE MEMBER: He is a sir. we have little or no control over cases lodged at the courts. However, if these cases had not been lodged, we MR MAJAGA: Supplementary. Good afternoon Mr would be completing the project by now. Speaker. Thank you Minister for your answer. Minister, Mr Speaker, I am equally disturbed by the length of if you can find time one day, do you not see it appropriate time of the cases at the courts, that is 21 to 24 months to assist this Honourable House and the country by and counting, resulting in expensive operations on our explaining to Batswana what you intend to do regarding part and untold distress to the people. I thank you Mr the water crisis as we know that projects are ongoing? Speaker. The situation is getting worse at my constituency and constituencies of some Honourable Members who MS MONNAKGOTLA: Supplementary. Thank you cannot ask. Maybe it will be better and we will not be Mr Speaker for giving me a chance to supplement. I worried because you would have explained how the thank you Honourable Minister for the responses you projects are going to be implemented across the whole have been giving to Parliament. Honourable Minister, country, even though we know that information is I heard you saying you had promised me five trucks on sometimes aired on radio. Thank you sir. the 29th of July, during the Parliament winter session; but you have managed to deliver two and six trucks are MR MZWINILA: Thank you Mr Speaker. Thank you bowsing. My question is how many drivers are there Honourable. That is a brilliant idea. As the Honourable since you are saying every truck bowses twice? How Member is aware, I clarified water crisis issues to many times does the water run dry in Kgalagadi? Batswana in a Kgotla meeting at his constituency in 2019 and I also informed them about our challenges and Honourable Minister, you said this case has been at solutions. Even the Honourable Member for Kgalagadi court for 21 months. I have heard you, now my question North knows that I addressed this issue in a Kgotla is, are you not able to make an urgent application for meeting in 2019. We are also clarifying at this point in this case since people of Kgalagadi are in dire need of time our problems and possible solutions. I believe that water? Even at the hospital, there is no water at Hukuntsi it is happening. I am doing it. Thank you. Primary Hospital, even as I speak right now. There are boarding schools, they have no water. There is basically HONOURABLE MEMBER: Further supplementary. no water in Kgalagadi. I thank you Honourable Minister. HOSTEL ACCOMMODATION AT MOTHAMO MR MZWINILA: I thank you Mr Speaker. In terms of JUNIOR SECONDARY SCHOOL the first question of how many drivers; each vehicle has its own driver. We ensure that we have sufficient drivers, MR L. LESEDI (SEROWE SOUTH): asked the however whenever they go on leave or sick leave, one Minister of Basic Education if he is aware that there is of the trucks may not be in full service, but our drivers serious shortage of hostel accommodation at Mothamo work seven days a week to ensure that there is adequate Junior Secondary School in Moiyabana; and if so to supply of water. state when this problem will be addressed.

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ASSISTANT MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION (ii) My ministry considers active involvement in party (MS MAKWINJA): Thank you Mr Speaker. Mr politics as making public political statements, Speaker, my ministry is aware of the shortage of hostel partaking in political party campaigns and rallies accommodation at Mothamo Junior Secondary School. while serving as a land board member or in a public office. Mr Speaker, my ministry decided Mr Speaker, Mothamo Junior Secondary School has 720 to remove the requirement that prospective boarders; 341 boys and 379 girls. Currently, all students applicants should not be involved in active politics have been accommodated by placing 12 boys and 10 because such a restriction was unfair. Thus, every girls per dormitory. Efforts are ongoing to create more Motswana, irrespective of political affiliation was space in the hostels. given the opportunity to apply. Upon appointment, Mr Speaker, the construction of an additional 72 however, the contract is very clear that appointees hostel space is currently ongoing. A porta cabin, which should not be active in politics while serving in accommodates 12 boys, has also been provided to the the land board. school. My ministry will close the verandahs of six (iii) Mr Speaker, some of the appointed land board hostel blocks to further increase hostel capacity by 72 members were not shortlisted for the interviews. boarders at both boys and girls hostels by January, 2021. Statutory Instrument No. 29 of 2017 allows the I thank you. Minister to appoint to a land board, a person who is APPOINTMENT OF LAND BOARD MEMBERS not in the list of candidates submitted by the Land Board Selection Committee. Statutory Instrument MR D. SALESHANDO (MAUN WEST): asked the No. 29 of 2017 was applied in situations where Minister of Land Management, Water and Sanitation there was a huge difference in age, qualifications, Services to state: experience, competencies or geographical representation of villages especially within the (i) why he chose to appoint land board members who sub-land boards as well as to balance gender and do not conform to the requirements stated by the to ensure inclusion of people from remote area ministry in their public communication inviting settlements so that they could be empowered. citizens to apply for land board membership; In situations where there was imbalance in (ii) what the ministry considers active involvement in competencies, the provisions of this instrument party politics; were applied and this was done in consultation with the Land Board Selection Committee. (iii) if any of the appointed members were not (iv) Mr Speaker, it is not true that younger applicants shortlisted for interviews; with tertiary qualifications were overlooked in (iv) the rationale for overlooking younger applicants favour of older applicants with other qualifications with tertiary qualifications in favour of older and allegedly no experience in land administration. applicants with inferior qualifications and no My contention is that when appointing the current experience in land administration; and land board members, we had the best interests of the youth at heart, that is why we made sure that (v) if he would avail the full list of members he boards across the country comprise of the youth appointed and the qualifications they hold, as and some of them hold positions of the Land Board well as the full list of all those that were called for Chairperson or Land Board Vice Chairperson. For interviews. example, Tonota, Seronga and Lentsweletau Sub- Land Boards are chaired by youth between the MINISTER OF LAND MANAGEMENT, WATER ages of 30 and 34 years. AND SANITATION SERVICES (MR MZWINILA): Thank you Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, allow me to indicate that out of the entire board members appointed, I appointed 94 (i) All the appointed land board members meet the youth out of which 90 hold tertiary qualifications, requirements of the provisions of Tribal Land Act, and out of this 94 who were appointed, 62 of them its regulations and those stipulated in the advert are women and 32 are men. Further to that, 12 out for land board membership. of 62 women hold the positions of Chairperson

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or Vice Chairperson while four out of 32 young On the second one; why are we refusing with the list men hold the positions of Chairperson or Vice of people we have interviewed? We have interviewed Chairperson. tens of thousands people. As with the civil service, when you are interviewing people, I have not come across a (v) The list of the board members who have been situation where Parliament or a Sub-Committee of appointed is now public knowledge and they are Parliament wants the list of every single person who has on duty, thus they are not appointed but rather been interviewed. I also do not know how this will exactly existing board members at present. As for the list assist because if the issue is to find out why some board of those called for interviews, that is an internal members ended up being board members without being process that cannot be disclosed. The list of interviewed, I clearly stated that there is a provision existing board members is in the public domain which allows for board members to be appointed into at the respective land board and this is also in the board without having been interviewed. That is the accordance with Standing Order 38.1 (m) which Statutory Instrument of 2017. states that an Honourable Member may not ask for information which is in the public domain. I thank The last question was; why did we appoint a lot of you Mr Speaker. Botswana Democratic Party (BDP) members? I am not aware of the political leaning or inclination of the people MR SALESHANDO: Supplementary. Thank you who were appointed because firstly, we did not ask their Mr Speaker. In the past, people who were active in political inclining or ideology. Secondly, they did not politics were appointed at land boards and recently the disclose to us. It is an assumption for you to think that Government took a decision to stop that practice. When the person is a member of the Umbrella for Democratic he says that it was unfair, how unfair was it because Change (UDC), when in fact they voted for the BDP or the decision was that there should be political neutrality whatever the case may be. We did not ask, investigate in governance? Are you telling the nation of Botswana and we were not interested in the political inclination of that you see it appropriate to involve political parties in political background of the people who were appointed, the administration of land boards, a decision that was neither did they tell us that information. We do not stopped? That is the first question. know. We just heard a lot of hearsay, assumptions and a The second question is; when you say that you cannot lot of people saying these are BDP members… disclose the list of people who have applied, people who HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… were called for interviews as well as their qualifications because you are saying that it is “internal”, Parliament MR MZWINILA: …why did you not appoint UDC plays an oversight role, our duty is to assess what you members? We are not into BDP and UDC, all we are are doing. It is our duty to scrutinise your criteria. When saying is that we appoint people based on the merits of you hinder Parliament from assessing the decisions that the application and what you required as the recruiting you took with Government assets, do you understand agency or entity. that we are talking about funds which do not belong to you, your ministry nor your party? We are talking about HONOURABLE MEMBER: Further supplementary. Batswana funds. Where do you want to account if you do not want to be held accountable in Parliament? HONOURABLE MEMBER: Supplementary.

Lastly, how come you managed to appoint BDP MR SPEAKER: Honourable Member for Gaborone politicians only for land boards and not secure anyone Central. from any other party? HONOURABLE MEMBER: It is now not audible. MR MZWINILA: Thank you Honourable Member. I believe I have responded to the first question on why LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION (MR we changed. We tried to parallel our recruitment process SALESHANDO): On a point order. I want to of civil service. When you are appointed in the civil understand, if the Minister was asked questions and he service, there is no clause which says you should have responds by saying, he does not deem it important to been active in politics. So we found it to be unfair to give me that information because he does not know how deny a certain cohort or section of the population the it will assist me yet I have reasons of including it at (iv). opportunity to also tender their applications. He then responded by saying he cannot provide me with

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the names of the people interviewed because he does not this nature to be furnished in light of these two Standing know why I want it and that the list is long. I do not have Orders. I thank you Mr Speaker. a problem with their number. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Further point of order Mr Speaker, what is the way forward when an Mr Speaker. Honourable Minister refuses to do what the Honourable Member is asking for whereas he is not backed by any HONOURABLE MEMBER: On a point of procedure. law to refuse? MR SPEAKER: Honourable Mzwinila, the Standing MR KEORAPETSE: Point of procedure. Thank you Order that you have referred to; 38, as I understand to Right Honourable Speaker and good afternoon. Mr be reading, “a question shall not include the names of Speaker, it has never been a reason in this House that an persons, or statements which are not strictly necessary Honourable Minister can refuse information on account to make the question intelligible”. of the quantity of whatever information he seeks, or HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Inaudible)... that is sought by an Honourable Member. It has never happened. What Honourable Mzwinila can do is to MR SPEAKER: Please stop trying to help when you do make it clear to the Honourable Speaker that I have a not know what I am thinking because you are not going list here that I will annexe to the answer and give to the to be helpful if you do that. Now, the quarrel as I see Honourable Member. He cannot refuse on account of Honourable Minister from the supplementary was that, the length or otherwise of the answer. He cannot. The the people whom you appointed were skewed towards Standing Orders actually provide that if the answer is the BDP, whether this would show that or not, but I think too long, he can provide that information. you had an answer to that. In terms of what you have, your definition of those involved in politics has changed MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Honourable Members, from what Honourable Saleshando understood to be of course, Ministers are answerable to Parliament, there involvement in politics. It does not mean that somebody is no question about that. The only provision I am aware who has been involved in politics or campaigning, they of, we should allow for a matter not to be revealed on then become disqualified, because as you are saying, account of secrecy. That is the only Standing Order that that was not to be viewed as disadvantaging, a cohort I am aware of. There is no other. as you put it.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… Now the second part of your reaction Honourable MR SPEAKER: So Honourable Minister, the issue of Minister as I understood you, does not appear to help. the length really does not arise because whatever the So we have to ask ourselves the meaning of names, we reason is for wanting to know, that would be revealed should not make the question intelligible to include the if it is relevant at all. In a situation where the Standing names. If you look carefully at that Standing Order, Orders do not come into play, it cannot be brought what it needed, the question did not include the names, forward on account of some examples which I thought the question wants the names from you. What we are you wanted to make or interviews in the public service, saying Honourable Minister is that, the answer should but we go strictly by the Standing Orders. not include names, or a question should not demand names, and we get ourselves embroiled as to whether in MR MZWINILA: I thank you Honourable Speaker. fact, what is the evil intended by that Standing Order? With your permission, I would like to read Standing I would rather if we had time, allow the Legal Counsel Order 38.1 (a), “a question shall not include the names of to help us, well, as I said, I do not want to appear to be persons, or statements which are not strictly necessary to the Legal Counsel to either side because I understand make the question intelligible.” With your permission, I these Standing Orders in a certain way. That was my would like to read Standing Order 38.1 (m), “a question preliminary understanding and so you may ask the shall not be asked seeking information which can Legal Counsel her understanding of Standing Order 38 be found in accessible documents or ordinary works as alluded to by the Honourable Minister, whether it of reference and which is readily available in official extends to a requirement of a revelation of the names. publications.” Honourable Speaker, these two Standing Orders are the reasons why I am extremely reluctant and HONOURABLE MEMBER: Kindly allow us to assist hesitant and I think it would be unprocedural for a list of Mr Speaker.

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MR SPEAKER: Honourable Minister, you want to which were shortlisted, something to me which I would throw light before Counsel advises us? assume that it should be in the public domain, because appointment of members to public office positions is MR MZWINILA: Thank you Mr Speaker. What I conducted in a transparent manner. So in my opinion am just trying to assist with here is that the gist of the Mr Speaker, I do not think the Honourable Member’s Honourable Member’s question is to ascertain whether question is in any way contrary to the provisions of they were predominantly BDP members or not, that is the Standing Orders, because if that was the case, the the gist as I understand the question. Now, if that is the question would not have been in the Order Paper in the gist and we accept that as the basis for the question, then first place. I thank you Mr Speaker. releasing of the names will also hinder or injure 38.1 (i). I said we should look at 38.1 (a) and 38.1 (m), but the HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Murmurs)... requesting of those names also injures 38.1 (i). May I read it Mr Speaker? MR SPEAKER: Honourable Members, you are not very helpful. You cannot turn around and say answer, MR SPEAKER: No. Legal Counsel was giving advice. In the case where as you know, we do not seem to agree, the Speaker is the HONOURABLE MEMBER: Procedure Mr Speaker! one given the powers by you to make a final decision.

MR SPEAKER: I will ask the Legal Counsel for help. HONOURABLE MEMBER: ...(Inaudible)... I have understood you Minister; I am sure the Legal Counsel was also listening. MR SPEAKER: Yes, read Standing Order number 2, I have got the final power. The issue really is, Honourable HONOURABLE MEMBER: Procedure Mr Speaker! Mzwinila, if you understand the quarrel as I do, and LEARNED PARLIAMENTARY COUNSEL (MS Honourable Saleshando will probably correct me, the MOKGOSI): Thank you Mr Speaker. Thank you quarrel is you proceeded to appoint persons to the land Honourable Members. Mr Speaker, my understanding boards in a manner that favoured, to put it roughly, the of Standing Order 38.1 (a) which reads as follows; BDP. So your call for interview, it resulted if I understand him, in you getting to that. It is not a question of those “(a) A question shall not include the names of who have been appointed because those are in the public persons, or statements which are not strictly domain. Everybody knows who has been… and you can necessary to make the question intelligible.” find out who has been appointed to the land board and those who have not. My suspicion is that, he is saying My understanding of this Standing Order as read with “you see, you have employed your comrades and left the question that the Honourable Member has asked out those who are not.” Bring the names so that we can is that… I am going to use the words in my opinion, see if that is true. Honourable Minister, please. as I understand it, is that in the Honourable Member’s opinion, the disclosure of the names will render his MR MZWINILA: I thank you Honourable Speaker. question complete and answerable. In his opinion, it Our list does not state whether a person is a member will make the question intelligible as opposed to being of Botswana Democratic Party (BDP) or Umbrella unintelligible. for Democratic Change (UDC). The information that the Member requires is not our list, which is what I Mr Speaker as for Standing Order 38.1 (i) which the am saying, that the information that he requires in (iv) Honourable Minister has just cited which reads; is twofold. The first information he requires is in the public domain; he can go to the land board and get “A question shall not be asked for the purpose that information of those who are appointed, existing of obtaining an expression of opinion, the members. The second information which he requires is solution of an abstract case, or the answer to a to find out whether there was disproportionate number hypothetical proposition.” of BDP, UDC, Alliance for Progressives (AP) or Mr Speaker, my understanding of this Standing Order Botswana Patriotic Front (BPF) members. We do not vis-à-vis the Honourable Member’s question is that, the have that information. Thus, us releasing information to Honourable Member simply wants full disclosure of the further his interest or his questioning, will be a futile candidates which were appointed by the land board or exercise. There is no way in our information where we

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have documented the political affiliation or even the Secondly Mr Speaker, the Honourable Member is saying political assumptions because a person can be assumed that he asked about the youth. If I was to go back to the to be BDP but in reality be UDC and vice versa. This answer, I specifically stated that, “Mr Speaker, allow information is not available. I thank you. me to indicate that out of the entire board members appointed, I appointed 94 youth.” That is the answer MR SALESHANDO: Further point of order Mr he wants. So, I do not know what he wants now from Speaker. I want to explain this; at (iv) let him tell us the other list; 94 youth out of which 90 hold tertiary the reasons for neglecting the youth that applied to be qualifications. land board members and have tertiary qualifications and appointing those that are older and are without tertiary The other issue the Honourable Member is talking about qualifications and experience. What were the reasons? is their level of qualifications. I am clearly stating that He is saying it is not true. We can only confirm that 90 hold tertiary qualifications; 62 are women and 32 are if he can give us a list that we are looking for at the men. Further to that, 12 out of the 62 women hold the following point (v) that it is okay. Now give us the full positions of Chairperson or Vice Chairperson while four list of those who applied and were shortlisted. About out of the 32 men hold Chairperson or Vice Chairperson those he appointed, if he is refusing with it, it is okay, positions. I have answered the issues of youth and we will get it at land boards. I never said give me a list tertiary qualifications out of the total number. I thank of Botswana Democratic Party and UDC members. I am you Mr Speaker. saying give me a list at number (v); the full list of all the people who were appointed and the qualifications MR SPEAKER: Honourable Minister, I think your they hold. That will confirm if you told the truth at quarrel with the Honourable Member is in the last couple number (iv). We know that he is not telling the truth of words; “…as well as the full list of all those that were about not knowing which party they were members of. called for interviews.” In other words, if let us say for the He even knows that he is not telling the truth. Now to 94 that you gave; of youth or whatever, you had called see whether in other things he was telling the truth, it 200, just as an example, and the full list, that will be the is necessary that he provides a list of people who were full list of all those who were called for interviews. That shortlisted for appointment and their qualifications. is just the gist part of it. When he is explaining it and I I request that the Honourable Minister…it is our first hear him, you know that he cannot find the BDP or UDC time to see someone run away when they are told to from the list because it will not tell him as you rightly provide information in a Government that says it wants say. Then the full list, whether you have any reason for to govern with transparency. Wow! not giving the full list of persons who have been called for interview for which number you then selected the HONOURABLE MEMBER: On a point of order Mr 94; the youth. Honourable Kapinga. Speaker. MR KAPINGA: Thank you Mr Speaker. At (v) the MR SPEAKER: Honourable Minister, that question I Honourable Minister was requested to give us a list of think it is where you had said something about revealing people who were appointed and their qualifications. persons who have been called for interviews. It is now Now he is saying that information is in the public being contextualised so that you can better reply the last eye. I do not know if he means that the Leader of the part of 3 (v). Opposition should go to all land boards looking for a MR MZWINILA: Thank you Mr Speaker. The first list instead of an Honourable Minister who oversees issue is just on a point of order when the Honourable land boards, consolidating that list that in a particular Member is casting aspersions saying that I am not telling land board, the following people have been appointed the truth when I said that I do not know the political and these are the qualifications they hold, so that we can inclinations of a person at the time of application; which really see that they were not only appointed for being is the truth. At the time of application, I do know whether Botswana Democratic Party members. Thank you Mr the person is still in the UDC or BDP. It can only be Speaker. confirmed at the time of application; are you in BDP, MR SPEAKER: Honourable Member Kapinga, I UDC or BPF? I think the Honourable Member is out of think for that part, the Minister is right. The persons he order to state that I am not telling the truth because that appointed can easily be found… is the truth, because at the time of application, you do not know where they are. HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)…

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MR SPEAKER: I am not sure about the qualifications; LEARNED PARLIAMENTARY COUNSEL (MS whether it will be easy once they are at land board. I MOKGOSI): Thank you Mr Speaker. I just wanted to think we have spent quite some time on this issue unless maybe make a correction to the other Standing Order Honourable Minister, you can indicate to me the great that the Honourable Minister cited, which is Standing difficulty of producing the list which was given to your Order 38.1 (m). Just to advise that the Standing Order office to go through so that you can appoint. Unless that he cited, was amended on the 6th of December 2017 somebody can give a reason why that list cannot be and it no longer reads as the Minister quoted it. It reads made available, I will want to make a ruling. as follows, “a Member may ask a question seeking a statement from a Minister” that is Standing Order 38.1 HONOURABLE MEMBER: Procedure Mr Speaker. (m). It does not preclude the Minister from providing MR SPEAKER: No, I am asking the House for help to information that is already in the public domain. I thank reason out on that one. you Mr Speaker, I just wanted to make a correction for the Hansard. HONOURABLE MEMBER: On a point of procedure Mr Speaker. ACTING LEADER OF THE HOUSE (MR MOLALE): Thank you Mr Speaker. I kindly request MR SPEAKER: It is not a question of procedure; the Legal Counsel to assist us here. Questions have been somebody to indicate the difficulties of availing that asked, and as far as I am concerned, the Honourable list which we know the Minister has. That one is a fact Member has responded like it was quoted at four, he has because you are not asking for something which he does answered it, and he also answered it at five. not have; the list which was brought to his ministry, that is the list he is asking for. I am asking whether anybody The issue regarding the full list of all those that were knows of any difficulty in the reading of our Standing called for interviews, just as much as you are demanding Orders because I cannot see one but I will rather have the right to know, and those whose names should be your benefit. submitted to those who are interested in knowing, because they were also not employed they can say ‘we HONOURABLE MEMBER: Just a caution Mr did not give the Minister permission to disclose our Speaker. names.’ How does the Minister then respond to that? The Minister has control over those that he has employed, MR SPEAKER: Honourable Keorapetse. not those who are no more in his domain. At that point, MR KEORAPETSE: Mr Speaker, I want to caution it was clear that he has shortlisted people; they were not on a precedent that might be set that, these are public successful, so why should he then be going there? What entities that are run by Batswana taxes. We know that to we are interested in is that, who has been employed? be appointed to a public entity, Are they members of the BDP or the UDC?

a person has to meet certain criteria that would be set. Mr Speaker, I want to make it publicly known here that in Now when you talk about qualifications today, and the constituency I am representing, at Phitshane-Molopo then also having it become the Minister’s prerogative Sub-land Board, there are people who were contesting whether he wants to submit the list or not, we will be for elections under the Umbrella for Democratic Change setting a very dangerous precedent in this House, and (UDC) and those under the Botswana Democratic Party we are going to fail to fulfil a very clear Constitutional (BDP). The key point which the Minister has mentioned mandate that stipulates that Ministers will account is that if that was the case and they did not declare to to Parliament. Mr Speaker, consider it more so that it him, at the end of the day when a time to employ them would not be up to the Minister whether or not he wants comes, they sign a contract that they will not show that to submit the list or not because we will be setting a very they belong to the BDP or the UDC, and that is what dangerous precedent. he has responded to. I do not know what they are now looking for, among the people who are no longer under HONOURABLE MEMBER: Procedure Mr Speaker. the control of the Minister. I thank you.

MR SPEAKER: Let me ask Parliamentary Counsel HONOURABLE MEMBER: Procedure Mr Speaker. to advise on something which was pronounced by the Minister. MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Honourable Members,

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as I said, I needed your wisdom on how we should TRADE AND INDUSTRY (MR MOLEBATSI): handle the issue of providing a full list of members Thank you Mr Speaker, good afternoon. Mr Speaker, appointed, and the applications they hold, as well as the there are two large scale companies licensed to produce full list of all those that were called for interviews. As tobacco in Gaborone. One of these companies has been I understand, the Honourable Leader of the House is operating since 2007. To date, the company has invested saying, ‘where would the Minister get the permission P4.937 million with employment level of 12 jobs. The to reveal the names of the people who were called for other company was licensed in October 2020, with a interview, if he availed that to Parliament?’ If we were projected investment of P10 million and anticipated afraid that the revelation would disadvantage or put such employment of 20 people. people in bad light, then obviously, I will not be party to a situation where people want names as a result of Mr Speaker, in the alcohol manufacturing, we have two which, persons who are not in a position to say anything companies being Botswana Breweries (PTY) Ltd and for themselves would be disadvantaged. The problem Kgalagadi Breweries (PTY) Ltd (KBL). The Botswana is that I cannot see how, those persons who voluntarily Breweries (PTY) Ltd has two branches located in applied to the Minister and were called for interview, Gaborone and Francistown. The business operation would be disadvantaged if their names were revealed. in Gaborone was licensed in 1998 while the one in Francistown was issued a license in 2008. The two What I propose to do and this may not be in the Standing companies have a total investment of P3 639 billion with Orders, is to postpone this question so that I can re-read a total of 401 jobs. Mr Speaker, in addition, the ministry the Standing Orders and we revisit it. Just in case we has licensed 4 893 retail liquor businesses through Local might do injustice to these persons who applied, I would Authorities across the country. These liquor licenses are ask you Honourable Members to apply yourselves to bar liquor, bottle store, night clubs, club liquor, liquor that question whether revealing the names of persons depots, distributor liquor and wholesale liquor. These who applied, who were called for interview as requested businesses employed a total of 15 910 employees as at here of the Minister, revealing those names would not March 2020. I thank you Mr Speaker. prejudice and the implications for the future. My only inclination for now, I hope Counsel will also help me MR REATILE: Supplementary. Thank you Mr in future, is that I cannot immediately see the danger, Speaker, let me also thank the Minister for his answer. precisely because I cannot see the danger yet. At the Mr Speaker, I believe that the Minister did not address back of my mind I am hesitant, hence my feeling that the question. The question was basically asking that this I do not want to rush a ruling which I might regret by Honourable House, let me read the question Mr Speaker, the morrow. Honourable Saleshando, I am going to “to ask the Minister of Investment, Trade and Industry to deliberately use the powers which you gave me, to say update this Honourable House on Botswana Investment this Question 2 is not finished to that extent. I will bring portfolio in the tobacco and alcohol industry.” it back after I have now revisited the Standing Orders HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… and warn the Minister in advance that the question is coming back, this last part only so that we can feel that MR REATILE: Mr Speaker, the question here is that we are doing justice because these people are not here, we want to know how much Botswana Government has we do not know who they are, we should be very careful invested in the companies that the Honourable Minister how we tread on it. My only inclination is that I think I has just listed. Honourable Speaker, I am asking this should tread with caution (hamba kahle), and be careful. question because in 2005, we ratified Framework So that is the ruling for now Honourable Members, and Convention on Tobacco Control (FCTC) of World we will come back to it. Health Organisation (WHO) and Article 5.3 hinders Government from investing in the tobacco industry. TOBACCO AND ALCOHOL INDUSTRY I want to know how much Botswana Government MR M. R. REATILE (JWANENG-MABUTSANE): has invested because of these reasons; in April 2011, asked the Minister of Investment, Trade and Industry Honourable Seakgosing promised that the Bill is going to update this Honourable House on Botswana’s to be presented in this Honourable House, Honourable investment portfolio in the tobacco and alcohol industry. Makgato made the same promise in 2017, she assured us that the Bill is already at an advanced stage, Honourable ASSISTANT MINISTER OF INVESTMENT, Makgalemele made that assurance on the 4th of

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November 2013, His Excellency the President Khama HONOURABLE MEMBER: Interjection. promised us that now... (Inaudible)…just yesterday on the 9th of March 2019, His Excellency the President MR MOLEBATSI: …I wanted to highlight that the promised us that he will address the Honourable Member is now asking fresh questions. issue of Non-Communicable Diseases (NCDs). We are Maybe you should give me time so that I can go and serious about the tobacco issue because scientifically it look for... (Interruptions)… Mr Speaker, what I can has been proven that people are getting sick, most of say is that there are two companies which manufacture them get injured due to tobacco dealings. That is why I tobacco, the other one is at Tlokweng while the other one want to know what we are doing. is in Gaborone and I cannot say out their names, they are private companies. Government does not have shares in HONOURABLE MEMBER: Interjection Mr Speaker. those companies, all that I can say is that Government is not anyhow involved, they are private companies. The MR REATILE: I want to understand why we are still other company is from and the other one is a lagging behind, why have we not yet presented relevant local company. Thank you Mr Speaker. laws to confirm our progress regarding the FCTC ratification? That is the question. MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: Supplementary.

MR SPEAKER: Honourable Minister, do you HONOURABLE MEMBER: Interjection. understand the import of the query? HONOURABLE MEMBER: What is it? HONOURABLE MEMBER: Interjection Mr Speaker. HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… MR SPEAKER: Honourable Member is asking for the position of the Government in terms of investments. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Procedure Mr Speaker.

MR MOLEBATSI: I thank you Mr Speaker. I believe HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of order Mr I made it clear Mr Speaker in my answer that the Speaker. has not invested anything HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… in the tobacco industry, those are private companies… (Interruptions)…yes, there is no investment, it is private HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of order Mr companies. Thank you Mr Speaker. Speaker.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Supplementary. MR SPEAKER: I have given the floor to Honourable Healy. HONOURABLE MEMBER: I wanted to comment because…Interjection Mr Speaker. Interjection. MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: Thank you Mr Speaker and good afternoon. Honourable Minister, I MR TSHERE: I think the Leader of the House wants to heard you listing Kgalagadi Breweries as one of the speak from quarantine… entities that Government has an investment in. Minister, HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… one can be interested in knowing if the government has shares in this business, I am asking this because people MR TSHERE: Ooh! Thank you Honourable Speaker. are often suspicious of the management style and the Honourable Minister, I clearly heard you saying that management relations with the workers. So I am asking there is company from Israel which manufactures myself that, if Government has a significant stake here, tobacco here. How come we have never seen such does she ever address the fact that it seems like that brand of cigarettes in Botswana? We are familiar investment is skewed towards the foreign partners? with Zimbabwean brands only, what is the name of Thank you. the cigarette brand that they are manufacturing in Botswana? Again, where have they planted tobacco so MR MOLEBATSI: Thank you Mr Speaker. Thank you that we can go and see their fields? Thank you. Honourable Member. It is indeed true that Botswana through Botswana Development Corporation (BDC) has MR MOLEBATSI: Mr Speaker, firstly I cannot hear shares in Kgalagadi Breweries. Botswana Development clearly because there is too much noise, but I heard him Corporation has shares in Sechaba Breweries Limited talking about a company from Israel…

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which has controlling stake at KBL. So Mr Speaker, let MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND me make it clear that we were talking about tobacco, COMMUNICATIONS (MR SEGOKGO): Thank that Government does not have any stake in the tobacco you Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, in September 2020, the industry, she only has investment in the alcohol industry, Department of Roads conducted an assessment of Government has a stake through a company called this road. The study identified eight sections that are Botswana Development Corporation which associates overstressed and one failed section, comprising 8.5 with Sechaba Breweries Limited. Thank you. kilometers. The remainder of the road comprising 30 kilometers over six tested sections was adjudged to be HONOURABLE MEMBER: Supplementary. sound. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Procedure Mr Speaker. The overstressed sections will need reconstruction while HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of order Mr the rest will require asphalt overlay. Speaker. (i) Mr Speaker, the Serowe-Palapye road was MR SPEAKER: Last Supplementary. completed in 1983.

MR REATILE: Supplementary. Thank you Mr Speaker. (ii) The design lifespan of the road is 20 years, Honourable Minister, if at all we do not have shares in however, the design life was extended by periodic the manufacturing of tobacco, we must understand what maintenance (reseal) done on the road which was is hindering us from presenting Bills before this House last done in 2008/2009. as it is the requirement of the convention which we The status of the potholes on the road is very ratified in 2005. On the issues that we are talking about, worrisome, however, my ministry is attending in many countries, companies which manufacture to them using small contractors and in-house tobacco can bribe the whole parliament so that it does resources of which the last interventions were in not pass a Bill, it has happened here in Africa, we can August and October 2020 respectively. give examples. So I want to understand what makes it so difficult to propose that Bill in this House, for us to pass (iii) The procurement for resealing of the road it and protect Batswana on tobacco issues, addressing was started in 2019. After award, some of the the NCD issue? unsuccessful bidders appealed the decision, which led to the award being suspended pending the MR MOLEBATSI: Thank you Mr Speaker. I want to resolution of complaints. The Ministerial Tender advise the Honourable Member that he should direct Committee (MTC) subsequently ordered that the this question to Ministry of Health and Wellness, they tenders be re-evaluated, which the re-evaluation is are the ones who can give him an answer. Thank you. ongoing.

STATUS OF SEROWE-PALAPYE ROAD (iv) My ministry is expecting to award the project in December 2020 if there are no further complaints MR O. RAMOGAPI (PALAPYE): asked the Minister by bidders. Rehabilitation of the road is planned to of Transport and Communications to apprise this commence in January 2021. Honourable House on the status of Serowe-Palapye road and to further state: (v) My ministry does not have any plans to carry out cattle chasing patrol along the Serowe-Palapye (i) the completion date; road, but will continue repairing the road reserve fence and gates where necessary. (ii) the lifespan of the road; Mr Speaker, it should be emphasised that it is the (iii) the status of the potholes on the road; responsibility of cattle owners to look after their (iv) what has delayed the re-sealing of the road; cattle. I thank you Mr Speaker.

(v) timelines as to when the re-sealing will be done; MR RAMOGAPI: Supplementary. Mr Speaker, my and question to the Honourable Minister is, do they not have planned maintenance in their ministry? I am looking (vi) when the cattle control/driving away cattle particularly at…(Interruptions)… This thing projecting exercise on that road will commence. the Honourable Vice President is noisy. Is it not that

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we have Honourable Molale acting but now when I try Lastly, you talked about cattle patrols in Serowe- to speak, it keeps interrupting me. Please attend to it Palapye; the truth is, we said we have no plans to carry because I do not know what is happening. out cattle chase in them. We will actually be repairing the fence because we believe that it will prevent cattle from HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)... crossing into roads. Yes, it is imperative to emphasise MR RAMOGAPI: Honourable Minister, do you that it is the farmers’ responsibility to look after their not have planned maintenance in your ministry? I am livestock to ensure that the livestock does not roam the saying this looking at the fact that you said the life roads. That decision was not meant to victimise the span of Serowe road is 20 years but it has long been Serowe-Palapye residents, I was merely responding to constructed in 1983 which confirms that its lifespan has your question. Thank you. elapsed. Given its years of existence, you could have MR LESASO: Supplementary. Thank you Mr constructed it anew. Speaker. I do not know what the Minister means when The second question Honourable Minister is that, since he said he extended the lifespan of the road. In terms you also agree that this road is a threat to people’s lives of maintenance, what did you specifically do on that and is bad, what are your intentions about it? Why not road? Are you referring to patching of potholes? Is make it into dual way considering that it is used by that the maintenance you were talking about or what Morupule and Botswana Power Corporation (BPC) do you mean? Can you give us a clear picture of the employees? It is used to transport patients who are in maintenance you carried out? severe pains from Palapye to Sekgoma. Could you not MR SEGOKGO: Thank you Honourable Member. consider it for dual way like the Tonota-Francistown Road maintenance is not just pothole patching sir, road and the other which is said will be constructed sometimes it means to reseal; asphalt overlay. In this from Moshupa to Gaborone? specific case, I am not sure about the detail, but that Honourable Minister, I just do not understand why maintenance is not just purely about potholes. What is Serowe residents are exempted from the cattle chasing pertinent is that, we have extended the lifespan of this patrol programme. I did not get that point. I think I heard road with a periodic maintenance, but I will get the… you say farmers should look after their cattle but is it not MR LESASO: With what? that this side they are not told to look after their cattle? Honourable Minister, please be serious! MR SEGOKGO: No Honourable Member, you are out of order. When I answer, you do not do that. Yes, I have MR SEGOKGO: Thank you Honourable Member. answered Mr Speaker. Thank you. It seems you understand some and fail to understand others. I do not know if it would not be right to say you HONOURABLE MEMBER: Supplementary. Mr are hard at hearing but I will try to answer. Honourable Speaker, he did not answer. Member, you asked if there is no planned maintenance, now let me explain to you that at (ii) we said, “design IMPROVEMENT OF CONDITIONS OF lifespan of the road is 20 years, however, the design SERVICE FOR TEACHERS life has been extended by periodic maintenance (reseal) MR T. LETSHOLO (KANYE NORTH): asked the done on the road which was last done in 2008.” I believe Minister of Basic Education if he does not consider it that now you have heard. needful and urgent to improve conditions of service for You asked if we could not consider constructing dual teachers including offering modern workstations and carriage way but before that you said I admitted that adequate housing; and in particular to state: the road is a threat to peoples` lives. Let me start off (i) how teachers are being enabled to offer tuition by saying, I have never mentioned that it is a threat to online so that in the event of pandemics and natural peoples` lives. Maybe you did not hear me when I said, disasters such as floods that disrupt normal access the potholes are worrisome and what we are doing about (physical contact), education is not disrupted; them. Honourable Member, for it to be a dual carriage way, we will have to base that on statistics of its usage. I (ii) when teachers in Botswana will be afforded do not have it with me at the moment. It will inform our modern workstations and equipment with suitable decision to turn it into a dual carriage way. technology and connectivity;

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(iii) how many graduates with Information Technology The employer being the DPSM will lead in the review (IT) or Computer Science training from universities of their conditions. I thank you Mr Speaker. are on Government database of the unemployed; MR LETSHOLO: Supplementary. Thank you Mr (iv) what stops these graduates from being employed Speaker. I note that the Minister is pegging the year as Information and Communications Technology 2024 to achievement of digitisation for education and (ICT) teachers in Botswana; supporting teachers. What are the key milestones that we will see between now and 2024 to give us confidence (v) when full conditions of service for teachers will be that we will indeed achieve the desired digitisation? reviewed and improved. The second one is the last part of that question which is ASSISTANT MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION (v), which says, “when will the full condition of service (MS MAKWINJA): Thank you Mr Speaker. be reviewed and improved.” There, I am just asking for (i) Mr Speaker, my ministry is committed to the use timelines and not necessarily who will do it. Thank you. of Information and Communications Technology MS MAKWINJA: Thank you for your question (ICT) in teaching and learning which will enable Honourable Letsholo. I do not have the milestones teachers to offer tuition online. This requires with me that will lead to 2024, and we will endeavour that learners and teachers are enabled through to provide those to yourselves. As far as conditions of the provision of ICT gadgets, capacity building service review, we will also try to find out the timeliness on ICT pedagogy, e-content development and from the employer. Thank you very much. internet connectivity. My ministry is working on creating an enabling environment to support MR KEKGONEGILE: Further supplementary. Thank blended learning. The expectation is for e-learning you Mr Speaker. Good afternoon Honourable Members. to be in place by 2024. The Economic Recovery The Minister pegged the year 2024 which is four years and Transformation Plan (ERTP) has prioritised from now. So considering the mandate of 4th Industrial school digitisation and work has commenced to Revolution (4IR), what is hindering us from toning facilitate on-line tuition. this four years period to two years or like that? What is posing as a major hindrance against doing that? Mr Speaker, it is desirable to afford all teachers in Botswana modern workstations and equipment, Secondly, question number 7 talks about full conditions technology and connectivity. Funds permitting, all of service but the Minister did not address it. The teachers should be able to use technology to teach by question is, which conditions are you referring to, 2024. those that you feel teachers are not happy about since you mentioned that you will approach the employer Mr Speaker, currently there are 7 796 graduates with certain conditions of service? Do they include with Information Technology (IT) or Computer salary, housing or their working environment? What Science training from universities registered on the do you deem to be a challenge for teachers in terms of Government Database under the Directorate of Public conditions of service? Service Management (DPSM). Those in my ministry’s Unemployment Entry Level Graduate Database are 190 MS MAKWINJA: Thank you Mr Speaker and thank graduates who hold degrees in Bachelor of Education you Honourable Member. For your first question, why (Science), Bachelor of Science (Hons) in Information can we not have the year 2024 to bring it forward? I Technology, Bachelor of Business Information Systems, must say that this is a programme, not an event. As Bachelor of Science-Computing and its Practice and a the Honourable Member knows, we are in crisis mode Post Graduate Diploma in Education (PGDE). in terms of COVID-19. As we discussed in the last Parliament, most of the resources have gone towards Mr Speaker, like all other graduates, officers with such COVID-19. The Transformation Plan has clearly specialisation are appointed as and when there is need outlined these issues as well that we are going to be in Botswana schools. My ministry has appointed 85 introducing online learning and everything. We have to Computer Studies teachers to date. Teachers fall under plan for this. This is how the plan has actually penned the same conditions of service as the rest of the civil out. As I said in terms of milestones, it will show you service which is governed by the Public Service Act. how we are going to get to 2024. We cannot have that

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because we do not have the resources. This is a long- permits the President, after consulting the Speaker and the term plan because everything will have to be online; the Leader of the Opposition, to appoint the Parliamentary syllabuses and the training. It is not something that can Committee on Intelligence and Security. The President be done overnight. invited us to a virtual meeting on the 29th October 2020 where he informed me and the Speaker that he intends In terms of the conditions of services Honourable to appoint this committee. He also highlighted that this Member, this is a clear one, we are all governed from committee has not been functioning since 2014 because DPSM in terms of conditions of service. So, whatever it did not have some of its members who abdicated conditions of service that are for teachers, that is where their responsibilities to be in it. I made a request to the they reside. Thank you. President at that meeting asking him whether he could HONOURABLE MEMBER: Supplementary! make it possible that instead of voting for a Committee only, we could highly regard two issues; firstly, that the HONOURABLE MEMBER: Procedure! Directorate of Intelligence and Security (DIS) should be looked into or a forensic audit should be conducted. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of order! Secondly, to see if the DIS Act can be improved… DR GOBOTSWANG: On a point of procedure Mr Speaker. Thank you Mr Speaker. Perhaps you can assist HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of procedure. us here, it seems like something is not done properly. MR SALESHANDO: …so that it is in line with what is Yesterday we were informed that the Leader of the House will be on quarantine for 10 days, and Honourable needed in an organisation of this kind. Molale will be acting on his behalf. On the contrary, it MR SPEAKER: Point of procedure Honourable Leader seems like he is part of the proceedings and he is also of the House. distracting the flow. So, I thought you could put Leader of the House to order Mr Speaker. MR SALESHANDO: Which Leader of the House? There seems to be two and I hope you will clarify this. MR SPEAKER: The Leader of the House is Honourable Molale, there is no other. ACTING LEADER OF THE HOUSE (MR MOLALE): On a point of procedure. Mr Speaker, I HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of order! know that you have certain powers and when I look at MR SPEAKER: I think we have come to the end of the the Order Paper, I do not see anywhere it talks about an matters on today’s Order Paper, and I will call upon the addendum to the Order Paper. So, I am asking how this Leader of the House to move a Motion of adjournment. happened that now the Leader of the Opposition (LOO) is already making a statement whereas we do not have LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION (MR an addendum which shows that indeed he has to make SALESHANDO): On a point of order Mr Speaker. Mr a statement. Is it not that we are supposed to approve, Speaker, perhaps you forgot we had agreed that… I just want to know how the process went. Thank you. MR SPEAKER: We did indeed. The Leader of the MR SPEAKER: Thank you Honourable Leader of Opposition Honourable Saleshando has a statement to the House. The process was followed, the Honourable make. I am sorry Honourable Leader of the Opposition. Leader of the Opposition gave me a copy of the STATEMENT statement he proposes to make. I went through it when we adjourned our General Assembly and I found it to be PARLIAMENTARY COMMITTEE acceptable, and I gave him a go ahead. ON INTELLIGENCE AND SECURITY SERVICES HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)…

LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION (MR MR SALESHANDO: Thank you Mr Speaker. Maybe SALESHANDO): Thank you Mr Speaker. I am giving you could have explained that even him in the past he this statement according to Standing Order 9.3.2. has given you statements when you came to Parliament which were not in the Order Paper. In the morning, you The existing law which was used to establish the said “molaa kgosi o a bo a e itaela, thomola o se utwe,” Directorate of Intelligence Service has a clause which meaning that no one is above the law, so this is it.

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Since the formation of the DIS, it has had many issues Parliament in Parliament. The Intelligence Committee that show that there is maladministration there. There is of DIS is not a Committee of oversight like we know corruption there and there are reports that money is used oversight Committees are established. Standing on things that are not the mandate of this organisation, Parliamentary practice; Parliament procedures in all and this is done with the permission, blessing or the countries the world over is that the oversight Parliament approval of political leadership. Some of the employees Committee should be elected by Parliament, it cannot be of this organisation and those who have already resigned elected by the President and then it reports back to the or have been fired are facing charges at courts like President and then we call it a Parliament Committee, money laundering and terrorism; terrorism which when it is the President’s Committee which in the past has you are found guilty, its sentence can be death penalty. shown that it does not assist with anything to improve the situation when it deteriorates further at DIS. There are also issues that show that these charges they are facing may be fabricated and the public should We will continue with the Parliament Committee of expect that some of them will go free because the Public Accounts Committee (PAC), so that when the Government was hasty in charging them with offences need arises to call the DIS to talk about issues of money that were not true. All these indicate that there is need to like other Government ministries, we will meet them review how this organisation run things, and also look at there at the Committee that was elected by Parliament, the Act that established it. The way this Act was made, not the one elected by the President. We do not see it it had no intention of allowing Parliament to peer into necessary to allow ourselves to be used as sanitizer for a what is happening at DIS. The Parliament Committee rotten organisation of DIS. that was elected by the President like he was saying that he was setting it up, it cannot be called a committee HONOURABLE MEMBER: Yes! of Parliament that oversees; it cannot be an oversight HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Applause!)… committee. MR SALESHANDO: Mr Speaker, during the course The Act that is there at DIS has brought us a monster that of today, I will give you the letters of members of the all Batswana fear and it is also wasting so much of our Opposition who were elected by the President into this money during this time we are in debt. It is necessary Committee, resigning from the positions the President that this law should be looked into again even though requested them to be his companions to go and deceive President Masisi does not agree. President Masisi Batswana that there is an oversight whereas it is not has indicated that he will not be involved or highly there. Thank you. regard issues of reviewing what is happening at DIS or amending the law, what he wanted is that we should HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Applause!)… look at the law that since it requires a committee, we MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Honourable Members, should have it even though in the past it did not manage you know that in terms of the Standing Orders, following to achieve what we expected as the nation of Botswana. such a statement, Honourable Members of this House On behalf of the Opposition in Parliament, I have are allowed to put questions for clarification. notified the President that we will not take part in efforts HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Inaudible)… that will not benefit us in improving the DIS. What the nation needs is that the leadership should intervene in MR SPEAKER: You are not arguing for yourselves, these issues of corruption in the DIS that we are already you put short questions to the Honourable Leader of the hearing about. With that said, as the Opposition, we will Opposition to clarify the statement and for you to better not allow our Members of Parliament to be included in understand it. the President’s DIS committee. ACTING LEADER OF THE HOUSE (MR HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Applause!)… MOLALE): Thank you Mr Speaker. I really stand here to seek clarity on what the Leader of Opposition is MR SALESHANDO: Our decision to not be part of saying. We said that we are governing this democracy this Committee does not mean that we are abdicating with laws. The President is requesting to do what the law our responsibilities like some of you will think, we says should be done and the Leader of the Opposition are intending to do our job as Opposition Members of is contradicting himself by saying the President is

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not governing according to the law. Now I want to opportunity. Just two quick questions for the Leader understand that if he sees the law is not… why can they of the Opposition; the first question is, Honourable not bring an amendment to the Act because there is Saleshando do you not think that the decision that you Parliament procedure of Private Members’ Bill to bring have made as the Opposition denies Members from the those amendments if they see this as a hindrance to get Opposition who were appointed by the President, the into the Committee because I do not think what he is right to take part in reviewing the DIS Act and giving saying is something that requires making a statement advice … like he has been doing. Thank you Mr Speaker. HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… MR SALESHANDO: Thank you Acting Leader of this House. You are telling the truth when you say we can MR RAKGARE: …the President as it is possible? amend the law, but we should not always keep saying, Mr Speaker, Honourable Ramogapi and Honourable ‘you that side’ and ‘we this side.’ My request to the Hikuama are talking whilst I am still on the floor, but President was that, we should join hands as the political we never disturb them. Maybe we should… leadership and pledge to review this Act, because it HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… seems to have some shortcomings. If this Act brought terrorists for the first time in Botswana, then it means it MR SPEAKER: Honourable Ramogapi, it is not for was not good. You cannot say because it is in the Act, your judgment as to who is talking or what. then it is okay for the President to implement it. For something to be in the Act, does not mean it is proper. MR RAKGARE: I thank you for your protection Apartheid was ‘legal.’ the Presidents, who ruled during Mr Speaker. That was the first question Honourable the apartheid era, were adhering to the law. We have an Saleshando. I am augmenting it by saying, last time organisation that is legally corrupt… Honourable Yandani Boko was here in Parliament talking about issues of Gender Based Violence (GBV) and he HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Applause!)… was saying the President has to set up a commission. What is the difference? When do you believe that the MR SALESHANDO: …you cannot hold tight to the President has powers, and how far those powers can go? Act and allow the situation to get out of hand like it is When do you believe in his authority? happening right before our eyes, and then we say it is legal. So we have taken a decision that, we will not be The second question is; Leader of the Opposition, are all involved in the corrupt practices you are doing through the Members from the opposition who were appointed the Directorate of Intelligence and Security (DIS). by the President to this… ACTING LEADER OF THE HOUSE (MR HONOURABLE MEMBER: You will have to take MOLALE): Procedure. It is not procedural that when your seat. we talk about democracy in Botswana, we then give an example that apartheid was lawful. That is unprocedural MR RAKGARE: …committee, have they all written because apartheid… letters to decline the offer? Do we not have one or two who wish to take up the assignment in this committee? HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… I thank you. MR MOLALE: …has never been lawful, save to say a HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… minority practiced it at that time, in that country. Here we are a democracy and we are the majority; according MR SALESHANDO: Let me clarify to you that it to the way we make laws and follow procedure. So, is not my decision; it is our collective decision as the for the Leader of Opposition to say that, he is basically Opposition in the Parliament of Botswana. He was trying to avoid the issue that I questioned him about. I saying, is this decision not barring some Members from thank you. giving advice to the President regarding the DIS Act? If the President does not accept my advice as the Leader HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… of Opposition, who else can he listen to from this side, MINISTER OF YOUTH EMPOWERMENT, because my advice to the President is that, we should SPORT AND CULTURE DEVELOPMENT have a forensic audit to clean up the DIS. He says he (MR RAKGARE): I thank you Mr Speaker for this does not see it as a priority. He and I should agree that

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we amend the DIS Act, and you think that he can be Address (SONA) of 2019 made on the 20th of September advised by anybody when he does not want to take 2019. I quote Mr Speaker. “High on our priority, will be advice from the Leader of Opposition. We know very to amend the Directorate on Corruption and Economic well that, every time when you are advised as the BDP Crime (DCEC) Act to make it more independent and (Domkrag), you use the numbers. I am protecting my efficient in its mandate to combat corruption. We will colleagues from being part of the corruption which we also be presenting the Freedom of Information Act know is taking place at the DIS. which is a critical tool to combating corruption. We will also propose changes to the DIS Act to allow for Why did we want the President to establish a commission accountability. These will be done in the next 12 months.” yet we do not want him to form a Committee of DIS? That is why I asked whether it is just an admission that Wait a moment, maybe you need to be taught about you have not done what you had promised Batswana? I Parliamentary Oversight during some of the workshops thank you. that are sometimes organised for Members of Parliament. If you are not able to differentiate between MR SALESHANDO: Thank you Mr Speaker. We still Parliamentary Oversight and a Presidential Commission have the intention of fulfilling what we have promised. of Inquiry… In the one regarding Freedom of Information, during the International Day of the Media, the President said HONOURABLE MEMBER: Go back to school. he was going to bring the Freedom of Information Act MR SALESHANDO: …I will kindly request you to this year. My colleagues and I decided that we should go and inform yourself, I do not have time to conduct a give him a chance, and not go ahead of him, so that we class of that sort for you. could work jointly with him. He did not bring it, I do not know if it is similar to others which were mentioned HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Applause!)… by the President in the past, such as the electric car, yet knowing very well that there is no intention of HONOURABLE MEMBER: He does not know. manufacturing an electric car.

MR SALESHANDO: Did all the Members of the DIS Act and the DCEC Act; let us start with the DIS Opposition decline the offer? I am giving you a decision one because it is the one that we are discussing today. I that was taken by the Opposition Members of Parliament told the President that both the ruling and the opposition from the Parliamentary Caucus, and I expect them to should work jointly on this matter. The President said adhere to it. Just like you that side, when you take a he wants an inclusive Government which will not be decision I cannot ask you whether so and so has agreed divided by political affiliations. He rejected this request with you or not. In the past, you took decisions as the which was against what he said on oath that he wants a BDP (Domkrag) and some of you did not agree with Government of inclusivity. those decisions, and Parliament never asked why you decided to take that decision despite the fact that one of Regarding Directorate on Corruption and Economic you did not agree with you. Therefore, what is good for Crime (DCEC), we have been informed that the the goose is good for the gander. Government has done something, it is being drafted at the Attorney General. We are not competing on who HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Applause!)… proposed the law or what. Even if you can propose it, MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND we want to give ourselves a chance to give reasons as COMMUNICATIONS (MR SEGOKGO): I thank to why we approve it or not and why we are proposing you Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, I just wanted to ask the that it should be amended. So if someone has failed Leader of the Opposition whether his statement that, him Honourable Segokgo, tell Batswana that the President and the President should work jointly, is an admission of was not honest when he talked about inclusivity. Tell failure? Mr Speaker, please allow me to quote the words Batswana that the President was not telling the truth as uttered by the Leader of the Opposition. when he said that he will present the Freedom of Information Bill. MR SPEAKER: Yes, please do. Regarding DCEC; if also it is not true that it is going MR SEGOKGO: Thank you. Mr Speaker, I will be to be presented, tell Batswana that the government was quoting from the response to the State of the Nation pulling their leg, they are not ours. We are ready to work

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with you. The problem with you is that, time and again second one that you mentioned, it is not a Parliamentary you are untruthful about what you are preaching, or the Oversight Committee. plan to implement what you are talking about. So what is the use of having committees which are MR MAJAGA: Thank you Mr Speaker. Maybe I not for Parliamentary Oversight? How are we going should ask Leader of Opposition to clarify two issues to explain their role to the nation? We will not be here; this committee is in line with the (Directorate on teaching Batswana procedures which are acceptable Intelligence and Security) regulations, the President can in Parliaments. Honourable Majaga, other countries appoint a committee of this kind so that it can oversee are going to make fun of us, they are going to laugh these kind of procedures. Honourable, as I was listening at you and I when we get to the SADC-Parliamentary to your debate, it means that if there are going to be Forum and we tell them that our defence oversight is people who are appointed across both aisles, as we being carried out by the committee which has been know that when we do our oversight in all committees, appointed by the President and that, after it compiles it usually consists of both Members of the Opposition the report, it does not report to Parliament, it goes back and Members of the ruling party so that work can be to the President to report in secret. The day that you and done appropriately. Did you not see it relevant that I are going to mention that at the SADC-Parliamentary when there are issues like that, more especially when Forum committees, the scores that have been awarded we talk about the DIS committee, maybe there should for the dignity of this country Botswana are going to go be a dialogue where you propose amendments so that down. As the Opposition, we are saying that if you see it appointment can be balanced? Having a dialogue fitting, lower the dignity of Botswana on your own. We between you or the Speaker and the President to make are not going to be part of it. amendments and then carry on with the committee? HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Applause!)... The second one, were you saying that in the meantime, you believe that oversight which focuses on DIS issues MS MONNAKGOTLA: Thank you Mr Speaker. should be done by Public Accounts Committee only, Honourable Majaga took my question. He asked the will it be appropriate? Maybe it could be better or question that I wanted to ask. Thank you Mr Speaker. appropriate to have this one, the one which maybe you MINISTER OF INFRASTRUCTURE AND believe has not been administered accordingly. Thank HOUSING DEVELOPMENT (MR KGAFELA): you. Thank you Mr Speaker. I hear the Leader of Opposition MR SALESHANDO: I explained that, the fact that it saying that this committee is appointed by the President, is according to the law does not mean that it is proper, I that it reports to him and that it is not transparent. So will give an example; our Standing Orders used to allow the question that I am asking is, when the Honourable Leader of the House to take part in appointing oversight Member goes through sections that regulate this committees like Public Accounts Committee (PAC). committee, I think it reports under Section 40 sir, A member of the Executive appointing committees which explains that firstly numbers should be taken which are going to oversee what the Executive is into consideration prior to appointing this committee, doing, appointing people who will supervise him. This representation of parties in Parliament. The President procedure was not proper but it was according to the cannot appoint Botswana Democratic Party (BDP) law. Parliament then took a decision to change that. members only, he is compelled to take note of parties which are here in Parliament and then appoint looking There is another shortcoming here which says that the at the sequence of the numerical strength of parties. President can appoint a Parliament Committee, which After the committee evaluates the procedures of DIS, of is called a Parliamentary Committee on Directorate course it hands over the report to the President and he on Intelligence and Security. We are saying that that is obliged to present that report to Parliament just like is improper. We cannot just sit back and watch things all other reports which are presented before Parliament getting destructed because of this improper practice and after compilation. wait and see if something good will come out of it. PAC is an independent Parliamentary Committee which has So Honourable, I was shocked as to why you did not been appointed by the leadership of Parliament. As for highlight that section, that it is there. I noticed that you the committee which is appointed by the President, the only highlighted sections which make it seem like there

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is no transparency, as for those that show that there is that he was there when Members of this committee were transparency and that the report will be presented before selected and it seems like there was no caucus when the Parliament so that it can do evaluations, you left them names of Opposition members who are selected from out. Honourable are you really taking the public into that side were appointed to this committee. It seems like your confidence, are you candid with the public in your when these names were mentioned at that time, before statement? I notice that it seems like you are not candid, adressing the caucus and other members who are selected with respect. Thank you Mr Speaker. that side, he said that he was against it and that he does not want that to happen. For him to be a step ahead and MR SALESHANDO: Mr Speaker, you are normally say that he is against these names, does it not show that strict on those who studied law, that they should show he took a decision for others and forced his decision on more intelligence. them, trying to show…pressurising them because he is HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)... the Leader of the Opposition in Parliament.

MR SALESHANDO: Two issues at hand today, HONOURABLE MEMBER: Procedure! He is separation of powers states that Parliament should imputing improper motives. be separated from the Executive. You cannot have a MR MTHIMKHULU: Secondly, Honourable Parliament committee which has been appointed by Members said that they accept this assignment the Executive, as an advocate, you cannot say that this because they are going to do national work, the likes supports separation of powers, that is number one. If of Honourable Pono Moatlhodi. Is this the democracy they did not educate you at law school, I am giving you a free lesson of political science. that he is demonstrating today where he now wants to pressurise him through caucus? We know that last week HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Applause!)... Moatlhodi said that he accepts the assignment. MR SALESHANDO: Number two, oversight; HONOURABLE MEMBER: Procedure Mr Speaker. committees which assess the Executive, there are procedures which have been stipulated by Parliaments MR SPEAKER: Honourable Keorapetse, there is across the world, but the main regulation is that, you nothing unprocedural so far. What he is saying, he is cannot say that it is an oversight committee while the querying, if I understand him well, the sequencing of Executive takes part in appointing, that is number two. events as he understood. I am not sure if he was there Learn something. or heard somewhere how the Honourable Leader of the Opposition acted. Number three; when a committee that has been appointed by the President compiles a report and then HONOURABLE MEMBER: ...(Inaudible)... hands over the report to the President, that thing on its own is improper, it is so wrong for us to say that it is a MR SPEAKER: You think he is imputing improper Parliamentary Committee. You could have proceeded, motives? If he is, then we deal with that one. I did not want to continue explaining everything. Some MR KEORAPETSE: Procedure. Mr Speaker, I was other points state that before it comes to Parliament saying he is imputing improper motive by saying from the President, though we do not know why it goes there in the first place, when the Minister wants Honourable Leader of the Opposition made a decision to change something in it, he can do that. It is improper and announced it before meeting the caucus. I want to and I thought that addressing this one will be enough. explain that, what he is saying is not true. It is an issue Stop saying that we should dig deeper and expose other that we discussed. Though we did not meet physically, improper things and tell Batswana about them. You we have a way of connecting especially during this time should have been ashamed to expose this kind of issue. of COVID-19. So we met first before and after he met the President and we subsequently met physically. So, HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Applause!)... it is a matter of fact, that decision was made by caucus. ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR PRESIDENTIAL AFFAIRS, GOVERNANCE AND PUBLIC Honourable Mthimkhulu is imputing improper motive ADMINISTRATION (MR MTHIMKHULU): Thank when he says it seems it is a unilateral decision he took you Mr Speaker. Let me remind Honourable Saleshando without Members of parties’ knowledge.

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MR SPEAKER: No, Honourable Member. I think the I ask this because I am aware that in the United Kingdom proper question you should have put is, “Honourable (UK), the Prime Minister appoints members of the Mthimkhulu, where do you get that because we know Intelligence Oversight Committee. Thank you. a different story?” So that he gives us the source. That will be the proper question. Honourable Saleshando. MR SALESHANDO: You are asking a question I have responded to several times and the answer is in MR SALESHANDO: I can briefly respond to the affirmative. There are set standards for a Parliament Honourable Mthimkhulu so that we do not waste time. Committee which performs oversight. It is a taboo to Comrade Mthimkhulu, stop depending on hearsay. have an oversight committee of which the appointing authority is the member of the Executive. It is a taboo, it HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… is untidy. It is not a frequent occurrence where you find MR SALESHANDO: Stop relying on hearsay you are an Oversight Committee appointed by Executive and an adult. In this Parliament there is a procedure that when reporting again back to Executive. Then it is allowed that you know something, you present it here not hearsays. the Executive can change the report before presenting it I discussed with my members before I attended that to Parliament. What you have done, if Bhudaza were to meeting through modern technology. I also connected sing for you, he will sing, ‘o mongwe moleko ke ona,’ with them afterwards. We met for our caucus which is meaning here comes another trial. held every Tuesday, today. ASSISTANT MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION During the 9th and 10th Parliament, the Opposition (MS MAKWINJA): Thank you Mr Speaker. My position was consistent concerning the Directorate question to Honourable Saleshando is, are we going to of Intelligence and Security (DIS) Committee. So, see you continuing with the precedence where if you do there was no doubt even when the President asked for not agree with something you boycott Parliament thus a meeting. I already knew our position. That is why denying Batswana the representation they sent you for I told him that, “we want to get involved, but can we in Parliament? That is my first question. iron out these two points that hinder us from coming Right now you mentioned that there are some committees in? The President refused. In other words, it means which were appointed by the Executive and that was he is not concerned about issues which worry us. We rectified. So, on this one, instead of sulking, why not want to protect public funds through a forensic audit amend it? An example was given…Honourable Boko and that this law should be reviewed by all Honourable listen. An example was given that you can bring it as Members. Your leader is not interested in these things. a Private Member’s Bill to be amended or as a Motion. There is nothing like one is pressurised through caucus. We have noted that every time you do not agree with Caucus does not have the ability to pressurise. Caucus is something, you deny your electorates representation and a very democratic structure; consultations are held and their identity as Batswana. Go and think about that, you reasons advanced. Right now I can confirm that I speak are not here to sulk, you are here to represent Batswana on behalf… not only the official opposition, Umbrella and do the work you are supposed to do in Parliament. for Democratic Change (UDC), I speak after consulting Thank you. Alliance for Progressives (AP) and Botswana Patriotic Front (BPF). So, there was overwhelming consensus on MR SALESHANDO: The difference between you the side of the Opposition. and us is that, before we came to Parliament, we had a manifesto that we had put forward. We did not just HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of clarification. snatch a handbag after elections and come to Parliament, before that we had an agenda. MR SPEAKER: The rules are; you can ask short questions for clarification. HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Applause!)...

MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: On a point of MR SALESHANDO: If we just snatched handbags clarification. Thank you Mr Speaker. Honourable after results came and found ourselves in Parliament, we Saleshando, is this an anomaly in a democratic could be like you and just accept anything that is spoken dispensation to have His Excellency the President to because we do not have an agenda. We came here with appoint members of Intelligence Oversight Committee? an agenda. We are saying, thanks but no thanks.

20 Hansard No 200 Tuesday 10th November, 2020 STATEMENT: PARLIAMENTARY COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE AND SECURITY SERVICES

MR MOTAOSANE: On a point of Procedure. Thank MS MONNAKGOTLA: I come from Kgalagadi; I am you Mr Speaker. Honourable Ramogapi please behave a Mokgalagadi. I could be using Sekgalagadi language yourself! Your conduct is unacceptable! if it was allowed in this House but unfortunately, we are only allowed to use Setswana and English. I have heard HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Laughter!)... Honourable Saleshando very clearly. His Excellency MR MOTAOSANE: Honourable Speaker, I have the President did a very good thing by establishing been listening to Honourable Dumelang Saleshando, a Committee because during the winter session in but on this one it is like he is making an attack on the July, you were complaining about corruption. So my Honourable Minister. The Honourable Member is here question is, since the President appointed Members lawfully. Maybe he should just respond to her without from the ruling party and Opposition to be part of the aspect of snatching the bag and the like. Thank you. this Committee, and you have stated that, you as the Opposition will not be part of the Committee, how then HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Laughter!)... do you expect one entity to be observing corruption when we have two entities being the ruling party and the MR SALESHANDO: No, Honourable Motaosane, Opposition? Thank you. when a person says we are sulking, you keep quiet and you do not label it as an attack. MR SALESHANDO: It is easy to tell, since I am aware that Honourable Talita is one of members who have been HONOURABLE MEMBER: Pardon? appointed to this Committee. The nation will realise MR SALESHANDO: When one Honourable Member that, indeed we have more problems than we think. says another Member is sulking, you do not say anything Unfortunately, she thinks the DIS will join, in order and do not categorise that as an attack. When I respond to fight corruption: she cannot differentiate between and say I am not sulking, I took this decision because Directorate of Intelligence and Security and Directorate I came to Parliament with an agenda…if I had just on Corruption and Economic Crime (DCEC). As a snatched a briefcase or handbag after results came out result, I am short of words because if I am to teach her and was confronted with a manifesto in Parliament that I about it, I do not even know where to begin regarding have never campaigned with, I would just say anything, her assignment. What she is talking about is not what accept anything and there will be absolutely nothing she has been assigned according to the law. Clearly, she wrong with that. misunderstood her assignment but unfortunately, I will not waste time by trying to enlighten her. We have pleaded with the President to have the law HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of procedure. amended. I heard the Minister asking why we have not joined in so that, we can make amendments. We asked HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of order the President to commit himself so that we can make amendments and he refused. If there is anyone who MR SALESHANDO: Honourable Monnakgotla, it is is sulking, if at all refuting something means sulking, not the mandate of DIS to fight corruption. You can go then talk to the President to stop sulking so that we to the DIS Committee; you will give me an update next work together to address the issue of Directorate of on how far you have gone in the fight against corruption. Intelligence and Security (DIS). Thank you.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Honourable Members, I think we have taken time on this issue, and we are most MR SPEAKER: Honourable Monnakgotla! unlikely to benefit anymore. Honourable Mthimkhulu had the floor, we have reached a stage where Iam MS MONNAKGOTLA: Thank you Mr Speaker. Let satisfied that Honourable Members have had the time me honour this House, myself as well as the Leader of to ask questions for clarification. I therefore, ask the the Opposition, Honourable Saleshando. Leader of the House to move a Motion of adjournment. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Are you now using the Honourable Leader of the House! Sekgatla dialect? MOTION

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… ADJOURNMENT

Hansard No 200 21 Tuesday 10th November, 2020 STATEMENT: PARLIAMENTARY COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE AND SECURITY SERVICES

ACTING LEADER OF THE HOUSE (MR MOLALE): Thank you Mr Speaker. Honourable Saleshando has a tendency of imputing improper motives on the President so I will touch on this issue so that he does not repeat it next time. At this juncture Mr Speaker, I move that this House do now adjourn. I thank you.

Question put and agreed to.

The Assembly accordingly adjourned at 4:18 p.m. until Wednesday 11th November, 2020 at 2:00 p.m.

22 Hansard No 200 Tuesday 10th November, 2020 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

HANSARD RECORDERS Mr. T. Gaodumelwe, Mr T. Monakwe, Ms T. D. Kebonang HANSARD REPORTERS Mr M. Buti, Ms Z. Molemi, Mr J. Samunzala, Ms N. Selebogo, Ms A. Ramadi, Ms D. Thibedi, Ms G. Baotsi, Ms N. Mokoka

HANSARD EDITORS Ms K. Nyanga, Ms C. Chonga, Mr K. Goeme, Ms G. Phatedi, Ms B. Malokwane, Mr A. Mokopakgosi, Ms O. Nkatswe, Ms G. Lekopanye, Ms T. Mokhure, Ms B. Ratshipa, Ms M. Madubeko HANSARD TRANSLATORS Ms B. Ntisetsang, Ms M. Sekao, Ms B. Mosinyi, Ms V. Nkwane, Ms N. Kerobale, Ms K. Alepeng, Ms T. Motsau, Ms O. Phesodi, Mr K. Setswe

LAYOUT DESIGNERS Mr B. B. Khumanego, Mr D. T. Batshegi, Mr K. Rebaisakae

23 Hansard No 200