Fifth Session- Thirty-Sixth Legislature

of the

Legislative Assembly of Manitoba

DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS

Official Report (Hansard)

Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker

Vol. XLIX No. 59- 1:30 p.m., Thesday, July 13, 1999 MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature

Member Constituency Political Affiliation

ASHTON, Steve Thompson N.D.P. BARRETT, Becky Wellington N.D.P. CERILLI, Marianne Radisson N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave Kildonan N.D.P. CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste. Rose P.C. DACQUAY, Louise, Hon. Seine River P.C. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Roblin-Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary Concordia N.D.P. DOWNEY, James Arthur-Virden P.C. DRIEDGER, Albert Steinbach P.C. DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. ENNS, Harry, Hon. Lakeside P.C. EVANS, Clif Interlake N.D.P. EVANS, Leonard S. Brandon East N.D.P. FAURSCHOU, David Portage Ia Prairie P.C. FILMON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo P.C. FINDLAY, Glen Springfield P.C. FRIESEN, Jean Wolseley N.D.P. GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. Minnedosa P.C. HELWER, Edward Gimli P.C. HICKES, George Point Douglas N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. KOWALSKI, Gary The Maples Lib. LAMOUREUX. Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar The Pas N.D.P. LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norbert P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord St. Johns N.D.P. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McALPINE, Gerry Sturgeon Creek P.C. McCRAE, James, Hon. Brandon West P.C. McGIFFORD, Diane Osborne N.D.P. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. Assiniboia P.C. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn St. James N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East P.C. NEWMAN, David, Hon. Riel P.C. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. PITURA, Frank, Hon. Morris P.C. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. Lac du Bonnet P.C. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Hon. River Heights P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack, Hon. Niakwa P.C. RENDER, Shirley, Hon. St. Vital P.C. ROBINSON, Eric Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Gladstone P.C. SALE, Tim Crescentwood N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Broadway N.D.P. STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. Kirkfield Park P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan Dauphin N.D.P. SVEINSON, Ben La Verendrye P.C. TOEWS, Vic, Hon. Rossmere P.C. TWEED, Mervin, Hon. Turtle Mountain P.C. VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. Fort Garry P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann Swan River N.D.P. Vacant St. Boniface 42 11

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Tuesday, July 13, 1999

The House met at 1:30 p.m. government stated that, clearly, the conditions of the licence will mean that there are no discharges PRAYERS that should be of any concern, and certainly this is meant to be a contained facility. ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS I would like to ask the Premier: with the PRESENTING REPORTS BY 2,000 litres of effluents discharged, are the STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES conditions of the licence being breached with this, or has the licence been changed and Committee of Supply weakened by the provincial government?

Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Chairperson): Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Madam Speaker, the Committee of Supply has Environment): Madam Speaker, l appreciate considered certain resolutions, directs me to the question. It is a very serious matter, and I report progress and asks leave to sit again. I thank the member fo r raising it. I believe, move, seconded by the honourable member for genuinely concerned as we are, that in this Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine), that the report instance there was a breach of the protocol that of the committee be received. is in place that we are insisting be rectified before any of the high-level lab work begins. It Motion agreed to. has not begun yet, and of course we want to ensure that in this case there was not a health TABLING OF REPORTS hazard. We want to ensure that no such occurrence will happen again after higher level Hon. Shirley Render (Minister of Consumer work does begin. Higher level work will not and Corporate Affairs): Madam Speaker, I am begin until this procedure is rectified. pleased to table the 1997-1998 annual reports fo r Vital Statistics Agency, Consumer and Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, in Hansard in 1994 Corporate Affairs, the Companies Office, the government stated that this would be a Property Registry Agency and the Manitoba contained fac ility, and there would not be the Gaming Control Commission, copies of which concerns that we had raised about materials have been previously distributed. being discharged to the river. I would like to ask the minister: is discharging 2,000 litres of ORAL QUESTION PERIOD effluents from the virology lab consistent with the licence, or is it inconsistent with the licence Virology Lab issued by the province? We want to know Wastewater whether the federal virology lab is breaking the licence or whether the licence conditions have Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): been weakened by the provincial government. Madam Speaker, I think most Manitobans were shocked to read today that 2,000 litres of * (1335) effluents were deposited in our river system fr om the federal virology lab. This lab, of Mrs. Mcintosh: Madam Speaker, as I indicated course, will be dealing with Ebola viruses and in my first response, before work begins on the other very dangerous materials and genetic higher level lab work, this kind of protocol has issues of disease. to be rectified. The member is quite correct in that this is not part of the original conditions. When we raised the questions of sewers and We do not want that effluent-in this case it was sewage system and disposal in 1994, the not health-hazard water; it was just water, but we 42 12 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 13, 1999

absolutely insist that there be a change in that Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of particular protocol. They are all under contain­ Environment): Madam Speaker, the member ment, but we want to ensure that no accidental had asked earlier, and I would be pleased to turning of any tap will release any kind of water provide details of the licence to him as Leader of whether it, in this case, was not a health hazard. the Opposition, and those details will answer Certainly, we will not allow higher level lab those questions. work to begin until we are satisfied that that condition of the licence is respected. What I wish to assure the House and the Leader of the Opposition is that the water that did go into the wastewater treatment was Licence Tabling Request ordinary water. It did not have viral contaminants. The lab is not yet working with Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): those higher level viruses, and the protocols that Madam Speaker, again, can the minister then are in place are now being looked at and table the licence in this Chamber and indicate to investigated by both officials in my department us that it is contrary not to the protocol but to the and fe deral officials to ensure that before any licence issued by the province fo r effluents to be contaminants come in there will be no danger of discharged through the sewer system into the accidental release into the water system. That is treatment plants into the rivers? Is that against a condition of the licence that we demand be the licence, or is that consistent with the licence? honoured. Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of So I will provide the details of the licensing Environment): Madam Speaker, as I indicated fo r him, and if he has any further questions from in both my previous answers, that is contrary to that, I would be pleased to answer them as well. the licence. What I have indicated is that the water that will be going through the waste Mr. Doer: I thank the minister, and I look treatment ultimately, fo r the higher level lab fo rward to looking at the licence. The minister work is not yet containing any results of the is saying that no alleged contaminants will go higher level lab work. What I am saying to the into the sewer and river supply, but water from member is that before that higher level lab work the virology lab will be going through the begins, we will be receiving assurance from the regular treatment plant. Is that correct, in terms fe deral government that no such water will be ofthe licence? going into the rivers, which is the concern he justifiably brings fo rward and with which we * (1340) concur. Mrs. Mcintosh: Madam Speaker, when I bring Virology Lab forward the conditions of the licence, I will be Wastewater able to answer that more clearly. I will take that question as notice. because there are all kinds of Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): ways in which water enters the system that are With a new question, I just want to make sure not contaminated water supply. I will check the that the public understands and we understand detail of that fo r him. the issue. The minister mentioned before certain materials can be dealt with, and she also I again wish to indicate that the break in mentioned a higher level set of materials. Is the procedure that occurred in this instance was a minister now saying to us that the condition that good alert to all of us who are looking at the way no liquids, fluids of any level, one, two, three or in which the protocols begin taking place in the fo ur, will be discharged through the sewer lab. I can assure the House, Madam Speaker, system to the river system here in Manitoba? Is that no viral contaminants will be entering the that what she is saying is the condition of the water system and that we are insisting that the licence, or is there some kind of condition short fe deral government show us the protocols that of Ebola that the government is saying would be are being put in place to rectify the situations so accepted by a licence for purposes of discharge? that no fu rther incident of this sort can occur. July 13, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4213

Mr. Doer: Well, I think a lot of people would Health Care System be scared when they read this story today and Waiting Lists very concerned about it. I have talked to a number of Manitobans that are, and I share their Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam concern. I mean, it is just something that we Speaker, my question is fo r the Minister of thought that the fac ility was contained, and now Health on a diffe rent matter, and that is we were we are learning that it may not be fully given assurances some years ago that the line­ contained, notwithstanding the disagreement ups in the hospitals would be dealt with. The about what materials went in through the sewer Premier promised that there would be a massive into the treatment plant and into the river. decrease by the middle of this year, which has not happened. Two weeks ago in this Chamber I The fe deral government, in 1995, promised talked about my visit after midnight to the that any accidental release or spill, the primary emergency rooms and over 40 people in the responsibility will be with the lab, but they also Health Sciences Centre. will be responsible to liaise with the provincial officials as necessary. When was this Madam Speaker, we are contacted by a government notified? Was there proper liaison Jenny Bellino, who is known to some members between the government, the fe deral government opposite and who has had 13 surgeries. The and this government, and is there proper fo od was so bad at Victoria Hospital that her notification of the public, because many of us family brought in food for her. She is sitting at read it in the newspaper this morning? home presently, after being discharged, fo rced to leave the hospital, may have to go back to the St. Mrs. Mcintosh: Madam Speaker, again, Boniface emergency because of her condition. thank the Leader of the Opposition fo r his concern and fo r his very genuine, I believe, My question is: when will the minister stop concern on this issue. The fe deral government making excuses and do something about the connected with the lab notified the provincial situation in the hospitals, and that is to open beds government that there had been some water and to bring nurses into the hospital system to going out of the lab the day after. Technically, deal with the shortages, not the excuses that we they are supposed to let us know within 12 have heard fo r six or seven years? hours. We believe that it was in excess of 12 hours, and that is another point of contention that Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question we are currently discussing with the fe deral has been put. government.

* (1345) Immediately, then, provincial officials contacted the health authorities. It was not a Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): private or a secret communication at all. They Madam Speaker, it is not a matter of making notified Dr. Margaret Fast of the City of excuses at all, it is a matter of providing the Winnipeg and Dr. Popplow here in the member fo r Kildonan with the situation as it provincial governmentto ascertain any degree of exists this year. As has always been the case and health hazard, and if there was a health hazard, he knows fu ll well, and we certainly have what kind of notification should be provided to evidence of it right across Canada, all provinces the public. and Manitoba for many decades have had issues like summer slowdowns in terms of the Dr. Margaret Fast is the lead health official procedures, elective surgery and so on. When it who determined that there was not a health comes to emergency requirements and urgent hazard, and so therefore then department requirements, these are dealt with in a very short officials began turning their attention to period of time. But, again, it is nothing new to corrective procedures in terms of protocol. be in a summer schedule situation affecting the Madam Speaker, I will provide more details timing of various procedures and services. So he because I know my time is up. knows that fu ll well. 42 14 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 13, 1999

He knows we are taking a number of steps stand and support that budget. I think that to address issues like recruiting and retaining our member was smiling because he knows that we nurses, setting up a $7-million fu nd; putting are supporting health care with $2.1 billion, $32.5 million into our budget that he supported, $194 million more than a year ago, to address all along with his Leader, I am sure fo r that very of these very important issues. reason; that this budget has $32.5 million to recruit 650 more nurses; putting in place 850 Mr. Chomiak: My question to the minister, new personal care home beds to take the who well knows that we supported that budget pressure off our hospital facilities. If you go because that is the first time in six or seven years back a year ago, we had over 200 panelled they have done anything to try to improve the patients in our hospitals. Today that is down to health care system- 50. That is just a sample of a number of the steps that are being taken to address that very Madam Speaker: Order, please. important issue.

An Honourable Member: For their electoral Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, if the purposes. government has done so much-two years ago it was the flu, then it was the nursing; it is now the middle of summer where we are supposed to Mr. Chomiak: For their electoral purposes. have no line-ups, no people in the hallways-why do we have a chronic problem in our hospital My question to the Minister of Health is: system with people in the hallways and unable to can the minister explain, as Jenny Bellino was access our health care system? Is it not a result told when she was fo rced to leave Victoria of seven years of miserable planning by this Hospital, Madam Speaker, whether or not beds government and an inability to effe ct change, are being designated fo r the Pan Am Games? If and their cuts? that is the case. and of course you need to designate beds. why is it that we allow summer Mr. Stefanson: No, Madam Speaker, and there shutdowns in the fa ce of all of these people is not a major chronic problem in terms of our coming to the city of Winnipeg when we need hallways. We go day in and day out. I can give the additional beds that are going to be- the member the last fe w days. You can go to a number of fa cilities, Concordia, you can go to Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question HSC, St. Boniface; you will not find any of that. has been put. There still are some cases, and we have said that is unacceptable. Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, an individual like the one that the member is referring to, and I That is why we are doing a number of am certainly prepared to look into her situation, things. That is why we are recruiting more will not be impacted in any way by the Pan Am nurses in the province of Manitoba. That is why Games. I have had questions about that in this we have $32.5 million in this budget to recruit House before. There is no reserving of beds at more nurses. That is why we are building 850 the expense of the citizens of Manitoba fo r the net new personal care home beds right Pan Am Games. throughout Manitoba. That is why we have a bed co-ordination strategy making the best use of our beds right across our health care system. Some of the beds affected by the summer Those are just some of the steps that we are slowdown, if need be, can be put in place to deal taking to address that issue. with any urgent requirements under the Pan Am Games. That is how the process is designed to I am assuming that when that member stood work. There is no impact on Manitoba residents up and voted fo r our budget, he did so because as a result of the Pan Am Games or any beds this budget includes $194 million to address bemg held and putting a Manitoban in a situation those very important issues. I know some of his where they cannot access a bed because of the colleagues had long faces when they had to Pan Am Games. Those are the facts. July 13, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4215

Beverage Rooms Mr. Filmon: Of course, Madam Speaker, Brian Seating Limit O'Leary gave $1,500 to the NDP party, which means that he has bought out of any need to Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Unfortunately, obey the ethics of the NDP party, if they have in this province issues related to liquor and any ethics. Brian O'Leary gets to buy his way politics seem to be intertwined, one Cubby out for $1,500, I assume. Barrett getting a licence when the previous owners of the Cross Lake Inn could not get it; Manitoba Liquor Control Commission the fiasco under this minister, the private wine Privatization stores with that objective accountant Gordon McFarlane, her official agent and the treasurer of Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Madam the Conservative Party, giving assessment. Speaker, I would be more than glad to table a copy of the Conservative contribution list, which We learned in committee this morning that I think lists every principal in that vote-splitting this minister made a decision to remove the 300- scandal. Pretty well, you know, half the people seat limit on beverage rooms without meeting that get benefits fr om this government are on with the hotel association before that decision this list. was made, a decision that just happens to benefit, in fact. two hotels owned by one I would like to ask a final question to the company with close ties to the Conservative Premier, whether he can confirm whether either Party, in fa ct. whose owner sits on the Keystone this government, since the minister did not know Club which gives a direct contact with the First about this, or the Conservative Party is currently Minister. conducting polling into the privatization of liquor in this province and whether this is in fact the real agenda of the Conservative Party, the I am wondering if the First Minister can privatization of liquor in the same way that they explain to the people of Manitoba when we are privatized MTS afterthe election in 1995. going to stop seeing the mixture of politics and liquor in this province and how he can justify Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister charged this situation where even the hotel association with the administration of The Liquor was not consulted about this move. Control Act): Madam Speaker, as I said today in my remarks introducing the Manitoba Liquor * (1350) Commission, the Manitoba Liquor Commission currently has a very good balance between Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam private and our own government-operated stores, Speaker, I note that the individual who is being and we see no need to change that balance. referenced by the member for Thompson also made contributions to the New Democratic Party We have had difficulty in understanding in 1998. where the NDP have been coming from in their series of questioning. The new NDP, they Mr. Ashton: Madam Speaker, since the reinvent themselves every time we look at them. Premier seems to know quite a bit about this, We have them objecting to expansion. perhaps he has not read the owner gave $375 to the New Democratic Party as an individual. His Madam Speaker: Order, please. company gave $5,387.50 to the Conservative Party. Can the minister also confirm that Mr. * (1355) Ledohowski, the individual in question, has confirmed on the public record he is a member Point of Order of this Keystone Club and obviously has direct connections to this government to be able to Mr. Ashton: Beauchesne's Citation 417 is very benefit two of the hotels he owns by a policy clear that answers to questions should be as brief change? They would not even consult with the as possible, deal with the matter raised and hotel association. should not provoke debate. 42 16 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 13, 1999

Madam Speaker, I asked about polling that Somebody is polling. We want to know is currently being done in Manitoba. We have who is paying fo r it. Why is the government been receiving calls fr om Manitobans about it. I trying to cover up again their true intentions fo r asked the Premier whether indeed, through his the public assets here in Manitoba? position in this government or he as the Leader of the Conservative Party, whatever, whether Madam Speaker: Order, please. I would they are involved with polling. I would remind all honourable members when speaking appreciate it if you would have the First Minister to a point of order to not utilize the time as answer that question. Are they polling about debate on the issue but to relate specifically to privatization? Is that their real agenda? the rule that has been violated.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The On the point of order raised by the honourable government House leader, on the honourable member fo r Thompson (Mr. same point of order. Ashton), I would remind the honourable Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship Hon. Darren Praznik (Government House (Mrs. Vodrey) to respond to the question asked Leader): I think if you examine the record you and not provoke debate. will find out that in quoting the same citation from Beauchesne, in stating questions members Education System opposite are often very verbose, very Standards Testing Breach argumentative, very provocative, and that, of course, results in a similar reply. So I would ask Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam you to draw that to the attention of all Speaker, earlier today I trust that I was hand­ honourable members. delivered a letter fr om the Seven Oaks School Division to myself, a letter that was submitted Madam Speaker: Order, please. The for the Winnipeg Free Press and the Winnipeg honourable Minister responsible fo r the Sun editorial board. Manitoba Liquor Control Commission, on the same point of order. My question is fo r the Minister of Education and to ask for him to comment. In the letter it states, and I quote: The government's own Mrs. Vodrey: Just in answering the question officials twice reported that no harm was done and clarifying, speaking to that point of order, it and that the matter was concluded. Each of the has often been very difficult to fi nd out where three investigations which have been done the NDP are actually coming fr om in terms of reached the same conclusions. There was no their questions because they appear to stand fo r breach in security; there was a violation of one thing on one day and stand fo r another thing protocol. on another day. So, Madam Speaker, in the answering of my question, it was simply to try Does the Minister of Education agree with and clarify who in fact are the new NDP. that comment fr om the Seven Oaks School Division? Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Leader of the official opposition, on * (1400) the same point of order. Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Education Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): and Training): Categorically not, Madam Madam Speaker, it is an important public issue Speaker. The Deputy Minister of Education has that we know what the true agenda of the advised me that his officials take strong Conservative Party is. We want to know exception to that position taken by whether they are going to say one thing before representatives of the Seven Oaks School an election again and have the sequel plan to Division. More troubling to me or equally break their promise like they did on the troubling to me is the assertion in the letter­ telephone system. which I assume is proposed to be printed July 13, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4217 because I have not seen it yet. The letter is Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, I ask for the signed by the chair of the board, but it makes the Minister of Education to recognize that the point that the issue is more about partisan Seven Oaks School Division does not have any politics than it is about education, which we credibility in bringing this issue to an end. know there is plenty of partisan politics involved with this issue. But the fact that the school My question to the Minister of Education on division would take the position that this is not this issue: is the Minister of Education going to about education is extremely troubling to me. It do what is necessary in order to protect the goes back to what I said about the initial report integrity of our standards exams and call fo r an put out by Mr. Wiens, the superintendent of the independent investigation on this matter today? division, the one that I tabled here in the House which makes the same point that no harm was Mr. McCrae: Yes, I share with the honourable done, that there are plenty of analogies about member fo r Inkster concern about the credibility that to be discussed at further length later. of the report that I tabled in this House. I share his concern about the position taken or the lack of a position taken, as usual, by the honourable Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, I ask fo r the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) in this Minister of Education to comment on the matter. I am determined to protect the integrity statement from the letter, and again I quote: The of the standards testing procedures in our suggestion by Mr. McCrae, Mr. Lamoureux and province. Mr. Filmon that this matter still requires further investigation by an independent inquiry indicates Community Colleges that this issue has nothing to do with education Waiting Lists and everything to do with party politics and the upcoming provincial election. Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Madam Speaker, Manitoba's young people and skilled Does the Minister of Education recognize immigrants have been betrayed by this now the need for the independent investigation? government. According to StatsCan, Manitoba has the fewest college graduates per capita of this decade. This is afterthe Roblin commission Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, I do not hear called on the government to get serious about much from the New Democrats on this matter college enrollments and dramatically increase except from their seats. They too have been college spaces. I agree with the headline in one asking for an independent investigation, and that of our local papers that calls this a national would be about the first time they seem to have disgrace. taken issue with Mr. Wiens or Mr. O'Leary on this matter. I would like to ask the Minister of Education if it makes any sense at all fo r people like Harbir As I said to the honourable member fo r Dhaliwal, who is a foreign-trained computer Inkster earlier on in this discussion, this is a very programmer, age 25, to be on a waiting list fo r serious matter. The honourable member fo r three years to get into computer programming at Brandon East (Mr. L. Evans), speaking fo r the Red River Community College, while Manitoba Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer), says that employers continue to experience shortages of this is no more than making a mountain out of a computer programmers and this individual is molehill, and honourable members in the New driving cab. What is your answer to that? Democratic Party agree with that statement. The honourable member for Brandon East has also Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Education said that this is much ado about nothing, and Training): Well, Madam Speaker, it turns speaking fo r the New Democratic caucus in this out the good people over at the Freedom of House, which speaks volumes about the Information officeare not the only ones that use commitment of honourable members of the New those little white-out bottles. It turns out the Democratic Party to integrity in our education caucus research people for the New Democratic system for our children. Party, in being very selective with Statistics 42 18 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 13, 1999

Canada documents, have omitted putting certain in our college system, which will have quite an infonnation in the hands of a certain reporter for effe ct on the statistics that the honourable a newspaper here which covered this matter. member has to doctor before she brings them to this House. When it comes to the issue of apprentices, for example, they very conveniently left out the Ms. Mihychuk: I would like the minister to fact that Manitoba is about fourth or fifth in the respond to the question that I asked in my first country ranking-wise instead of last, as question, and that is: what answer does the portrayed by the graph that they presented which minister have to this individual who is a fo reign­ was mtssmg the other provinces, Madam trained computer programmer, highly skilled, Speaker. The NDP applied 1998 population who has been waiting fo r three years and all of projections to 1995-96 enrollment statistics fo r those Manitoba companies that are looking for the purpose of making their case. an individual with exactly those skills? What is the government's answer to this individual? So, you know, I guess the honourable member for St. James seems to be spending too Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, I do not know much time taking lessons fr om the honourable all of the details respecting the individual member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale). referred to by the honourable member. I would Ms. Mihychuk: Madam Speaker, ifthe minister be very happy if she would share with me more would like a briefing on how to calculate infonnation about that particular individual percentages, I am sure that the Free Press or our because it is that very area where employers in caucus would be willing to brief the minister. Manitoba are crying out fo r skilled people. That is why. under the colleges growth fu nd, there Madam Speaker: Order, please. The will be 35 additional seats created at the Red honourable member fo r St. James was River College fo r computer accounting recognized for a supplementary question which technicians, 55 seats created for computer requires no preamble. Would the honourable analyst programmer positions. That is the member please pose her question now. direction we are going. Ms. Mihychuk: Madam Speaker, can this If an individual is having difficulty, an minister explain why his government, in individual with the kind of training required by response to the Mauro report and then the employers in our economy in Manitoba today, Roblin commission, not only cut spaces but did many of whom are needed in the workplace, I nothing fo r year after year after year, leaving will do whatever I can to assist that particular little hope for Manitobans, for young individual. But certainly there are jobs available Manitobans who eventually leftManitoba? in this area, so many that we have to apply some Mr. McCrae: The honourable member has to of those $4 million in the colleges growth fund square her comments today with the comments fo r the very area referred to by the honourable made by Nuala Beck, who tells us that 39 member, fo r the person she has been speaking to percent of Manitoba's population are employed who is having difficulty finding employment. in high-skilled jobs. So there is obviously more So if the honourable member wants to share homework to be done, not only by the more infonnation with me, I will use whatever honourable member but also by myself, because efforts I can to assist. we recognize the challenges that a buoyant economic situation in Manitoba presents, more * (1410) buoyant in Manitoba, by the way, than most other places in this country, thanks to the Pan Am Games leadership of the present administration in Aboriginal Runners-Recognition partnership with those in our economy who create the wealth and create the jobs. Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): have some questions fo r the Premier. In 1967 there Madam Speaker, $4 million in the colleges were some aboriginal runners, Charles Bittern, growth fund this year will create 1 ,000 new seats Dave Courchene Jr., Patrick Bruyere, William July 13, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4219

Chippaway, Fred Harper, William Merasty, shows that the risk capital that we need in Charles Nelson, Russell Abraham, John Nazzie Manitoba to make it grow is there fo r the people and Milton Mallett, who took the Pan Am torch that need it. from St. Paul, Minnesota, to the Winnipeg Stadium, a run of some 800 kilometres in just six Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, I would like to table days, and the Premier knows that these runners a memo from the Workers Compensation Board were not recognized at that time, nor have they which points out that the people of Manitoba, been to this day. through their one-fifth contribution, pay the entire losses, all $4.5 million of the loss, because I would like to ask the Premier to consider of a secret share class, Class C, which the people awarding these runners the Order of the Buffalo of Manitoba bought for their $5 million- or some other award to recognize their achievement for the Pan Am Games. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member fo r Crescentwood was Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam recognized for a supplementary question to Speaker, I thank the honourable member for his which no preamble is required. Would the advice, and I will certainly take that matter under honourable member please pose his question. advisement. Mr. Sale: I want to ask the minister why he did Manitoba Capital Fund not tell people, the people of Manitoba, and tell Losses this party in Estimates and tell this House that Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Manitobans were responsible for the entire $4.5- Speaker, I have asked a number of questions of million loss on Rescom and Shamray because of the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism in a class of shares called, apparently, Class C of regard to the Manitoba Capital Fund concerning shares, that Manitoba said they would take the the amount of losses suffe red by Manitobans first $5 million of loss. What kind of a venture through Manitoba's investment as one of the five fund had no risk for the CIBC, no risk for the partners in the fund. I wonder if the minister private sector? All the risk is on the people of would be able to confirm today what the amount Manitoba. What kind of a venture fund is that? of the losses in regard to Rescom and Shamray, which total $4.5 million fo r the fund, what Mr. Tweed: Madam Speaker, while not proportion of that $4.5 million does Manitoba as accepting any of the preamble or the information one of the five contributors bear. that the honourable member often brings forward to this House which is incorrect, I am Hon. Mervin Tweed (Minister of Industry, pleased to report that venture capital-backed Trade and Tourism): Madam Speaker, as I companies increase jobs by 23 percent, increase explained to the honourable member in sales by 31 percent, increase exports by 36 Estimates and in other questions in this House, percent and taxes paid to the province by 39 risk capital is exactly that. It is what Manitobans percent. have said in the survey or the review that was done in 1994 that, in order to grow the jobs and I am pleased to inform the member that the economy in a fast rate that we expected, that Vision's $3-million investment in Monarch was the type of investment that was required. Industries is currently rated at $13 million, Companies that partook or were involved in the which he so conveniently neglects. When we investment side of it, many of them have been look at the record of the previous administration successful. Many of them have created many on the loans that they put out- high-paying jobs in the province of Manitoba. When you look at the fund, it is a balanced Madam Speaker: Order, please. fund. The investment at the start of the day and at the end of the day fluctuates in great amounts. Point of Order Somebody told me that in 1990 the Dell investment in the United States, a $2,500 Mr. Sale: Beauchesne 417 directs that investment today was worth $1 million, so it just questions should be answered briefly and to the 4220 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 13, 1999 point and should answer the question that was children. Are you for families or are you against asked. them?

Madam Speaker, I asked whether the Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Education minister would confirm that Manitobans lost the and Training): Madam Speaker, since my entire $4.5 million because of a separate class of appointment as Minister of Education and shares which Manitobans guaranteed when they Training, I have had the pleasure of visiting set up this so-called venture fund, while the numerous Manitoba schools and seeing those Bank of Commerce, which is a partner, has no teachers referred to by the honourable member at losses at all. I simply asked him to confirm that, work with the children of Manitoba, doing an not to go on a ramble about some other fu nds. excellent job and making a wonderful impression on those young people so that they Madam Speaker: The honourable government can grow up and become productive and happy House leader, on the same point of order. citizens.

Hon. Darren Praznik (Government House The issue raised by the honourable member Leader): Madam Speaker, I can appreciate the is one that has been discussed with me, and we sensitivity of members opposite to have the continue to consider the matter. minister put his answer into the context of this fund over the years because it is very clear that Madam Speaker: Time fo r Oral Questions has the record of the member fo r Crescentwood's expired. party when in government was absolutely dismal in creating any jobs with the use of that venture MEMBERS' STATEMENTS fu nd. Winnipeg International Airport The minister has a right in his answer to place his answer in context of the fund and its Mr. Gerry McAlpine (Sturgeon Creek): This success or fa ilure over the years. morning I, along with the Premier (Mr. Filmon), Industry, Trade and Tourism Minister Mervin Madam Speaker: Order, please. On the point Tweed, and Winnipeg Airports Authority of order raised by the honourable member fo r President and CEO Murray Sigler, had the Crescentwood, indeed I will take the matter pleasure of attending an event regarding future under advisement to consult the Hansard record developments at the Winnipeg Airport. and report back to the Chamber. The Winnipeg Airports Authority Inc. will Teachers Pension Plan develop detailed operational and facility plans to Maternity Leave Matching Contribution guide the fu ture development of Winnipeg International Airport and its role in economic Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Madam development fo r the city and province. The Speaker, though this government poses as being plans will be developed in a series of studies to supportive of women and families, many of their be conducted with financial assistance from the policies are family bashing and women bashing. Manitoba government. The province will Consider for example teachers on maternity provide 50 percent of the cost of the studies, too, leave, and the majority are women, are losing fr om the Manitoba Business Development Fund. pensionable service time because this government is the only one in Canada to refuse The studies will focus on several areas of matching contributions. potential growth and development of the airport facility and surrounding areas. The project will I would like to ask the Minister of Education look at setting out an updated airport master why his government refuses to match maternity plan, defining elements of a plan to construct a leave pension contributions and so penalizes the new terminal building, creating an airport­ pensions fo r teachers, again mostly women who related business park and developing a strategy are at home birthing children and caring for their to market enhanced air cargo services. July 13, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4221

I would like to acknowledge the work of the relocation to Churchill in 1956. Hopefully, we Airports Authority which, since taking over will bring to final closure the unfortunate operation of Winnipeg International, has worked circumstances that the Dene people faced while hard to improve services and also look for new in Churchill, which we have come to know as an business development opportunities. With its experiment on genocide. 24-hour status, proximity to rail and road links, convenient location to the city, and room for Madam Speaker, we also look fo rward to the expansion, Winnipeg International Airport can time when the federal government will formally continue to be a major economic development apologize to the Sayisi Dene for the treatment engine fo r the city and the province and will that these people received in Churchill between keep us on course fo r continued success in the 1956 and the early '70s. Thank you. fu ture. Oakbank-Springfield Personal Care Home I would like to wish this operation continued success. Thank you. Mr. Glen Findlay (Springfield): Madam Speaker, it is indeed a pleasure to rise today and * (1420) inform everybody in the House that we had a very happy day in Springfield and Oakbank last Sayisi Dene Agreements Friday with the sod turning fo r the 40-bed personal care home. This personal care home Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): Madam comes into being because of the community Speaker, yesterday the member fo r Flin Flon effort in Springfield and Oakbank over many (Mr. Jennissen) and I had the opportunity of years where the Kinsmen and Kinettes led a witnessing the signing of the memorandum of charge to have a personal care home. The local understanding between the fe deral government committee in the community worked very and the Manitoba Dene people of Northlands aggressively with Manitoba Health, with North First Nation at Lac Brochet and the Sayisi Dene Eastman association and have concluded with of Tadoule Lake. The ceremony took place at the announcement on Friday that with the sod Tadoule Lake and was signed by the fe deral turning, the construction is underway for this 40- Minister of Indian Affairs, Jane Stewart. It was bed personal care home. indeed a day to be remembered by all. The discussion over the years symbolized Firstly, the admission by the fe deral the kind of change in health care services being government is a breakthrough after past denials delivered, because from a 30-bed initially and refusals to negotiate on this issue, which is conceived, it ends up in a 40-bed personal care critical to the Sayisi Dene and the Northlands home plus a primary health centre, a primary Dene who have traditionally hunted, fished and health centre which has services such as lived on both sides of the 60th parallel. community health services, home care, mental health, diabetes education, audiology services I know that there is a lot of business that has and substance abuse education awareness, all to be done in the days ahead, the months and part of the facility in Oakbank to serve years ahead. Negotiations, however, can now Springfieldand area. begin on harvesting rights, land selection and reconciliation. It is our hope that these I want to congratulate the mm1sters of negotiations can be fast-tracked and completed Health in the past and this government, and quickly to allow the two First Nations to obtain particularly the current Minister of Health (Mr. outstanding treaty land entitlement. Stefanson) fo r being at the sod turning for the betterment of health care services in North The Northlands Sayisi Dene bands have Eastman association. All the citizens out there been denied economic development due to a need to be congratulated, not only fo r the work shortage of land, and of course, the Sayisi Dene­ to develop the final design of the project but in it is well documented-still have a major dispute terms of responding to the request for the public with the fe deral government over their fo rced funds to come forward fo r the matching grant of 4222 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 13, 1999

$841 ,000 from the community, which is citizens Volunteerism plus the R.M. of Springfield, to be part of the $7.2-million announcement that we made last Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Friday. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Speaker, I just wanted to take this opportunity­ as we know there are many diffe rent events around the province in which we are getting a Pan Am Games wide number of people participating and volunteering their time and effo rts and ensuring Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Madam that these many events are, in fact, as successful Speaker, I want to recognize the 53 Manitoba­ as they have been in years past. That is all being born or Manitoba-trained athletes who have put in the time frame of the Pan Am Games. I made the Pan Am Games team. Twenty-three of know, in the last couple of evenings, I have had the 41 sports will have Manitoba athletes, and I opportunity to visit pavilions. think that nothing is going to sell tickets fo r the Pan Am Games like promoting these athletes and having Manitobans get out and cheer fo r our It is a showcase fo r all Manitobans. I just home-grown athletes. wanted to applaud all of the efforts, not only those who are participating and volunteering In athletics, there are Daryl Fillion and their time fo r the pavilions but fo r the many Byron Goodwin; badminton, Kara Solmundson; other fe stivities throughout the province. Thank basketball, Todd MacCulloch; beach volleyball, you. Dan Lewis; cycling, Clara Hughes, Jim Fisher and Tanya Dubnicoff; equestrian, James ORDERS OF THE DAY Atkinson; field hockey, Christine Hunter; judo, Kevin Mciver and Niki Jenkins; racquetball. House Business Sherman Greenfeld; roller sports, Shaun Clark; roller hockey, Scott Burfoot, Jeff Leiter and Hon. Darren Praznik (Government House Michael Martens; speed skating roller sports, Leader): Madam Speaker, I believe His Honour Cindy Klassen and Christy Peters; rowing, the Lieutenant Governor will be entering the Emma Robinson; rhythmic gymnastics, Julie Chamber momentarily with respect to Royal Hayward, Katie Iafolla, Joanna Krecsy, Jennifer Assent fo r a bill which, discussions with House Pudavick and Andrea Sellen; sailing, Kelly leaders, we require in order to convene a Hand; shooting, Henry Gerow. committee, a meeting of the Legislative Assembly Management Commission, to Soccer, Brian Devenney; softball, Rick Elias complete some regulatory work. So I believe and Sandy Newsham; squash, Mamie Baizley His Honour should be here momentarily. and Carolyn Russell; swimming, Kelly Stefanyshyn; tae kwon do, Dominique Bosshart; Madam Speaker: The Lieutenant Governor is handball, Ryan Biggs, Bill Coulter, Larry expected momentarily fo r Royal Assent on Bill Hosegood, Kris Kendall, Trevor Nott and Jade 28. Young; team handball, women, Rebecca Hoffe r and Nancy Karpinsky; volleyball, men, Jason * (1430) Dufault, Scott Koskie, Jules Martens, Keith Sanheim and Andrew Zurawsky; women's team, ROYAL ASSENT Wanda Guenette, Janis Kelly, and Louise Wlock; water polo, men, Darryl Bourne; Deputy Sergeant-at-Arms (Mr. Garry Clark): weightlifting, Theresa Brick and Susanne His Honour the Lieutenant Governor. Dandenault. His Honour Peter Liba, Lieutenant Governor of I want to have all members of the House the Province of Manitoba, having entered the join me in wishing these athletes congratulations House and being seated on the throne, Madam and all the best on their performances in the Speaker addressed His Honour in the following Games. words. July 13, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4223

Madam Speaker: May it please Your Honour: et cetera, that we will be able to accommodate your attendance there. As well, as I am sure The Legislative Assembly, at its present members appreciate, as we are in the latter days session, passed a bill which, in the name of the of the session, the need, that there are some Assembly, I present to Your Honour and to important regulations that require approval with which bill I respectfully request Your Honour's respect to Revenue Canada, and in discussing assent: this with the opposition House leader, and I do not think I have had the opportunity to speak to Bill 28-The Legislative Assembly the member fo r Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) on it Amendment Act (2); Loi no 2 modifiant Ia Loi yet, but there is a desire, I think, to at least sur l'Assemblt�e legislative. complete that business while members are here in the capital, as opposed to calling a meeting Mr. Clerk (William Remnant): In Her fo llowing their disbursement across the Majesty's name, His Honour the Lieutenant province. So that is why we are attempting to Governor doth assent to this bill. accommodate that at this time.

His Honour was then pleased to retire. Madam Speaker, there are a list of bills, and would ask if you could, with leave, call the House Business reports from the standing committees that completed work on a number of bills. Hon. Darren Praznik (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I would like to Madam Speaker: Is there leave to have the announce that the Standing Committee on Law reports of the Standing Committee on Industrial Amendments, to complete its work on Bill 40, Relations and the Standing Committee on will be called for this afternoon concurrently Municipal Affairs? Leave? [agreed] with the House fo r 2:45 p.m. PRESENTING REPORTS BY Madam Speaker: The Standing Committee on STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Law Amendments will be called concurrently with the House at 2:45 this afternoon. Is there Standing Committee on Industrial Relations leave? [agreed] Third Report

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, with respect to Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): Madam Speaker, the passage of Bill 28, I would also like to I beg to present the Third Report on the announce that a Legislative Assembly Committee on Industrial Relations. Management Commission meeting will be called fo r this afternoon fo llowing the completion of An Honourable Member: Dispense. the Law Amendments committee in the same committee room. So once that committee has Madam Speaker: Dispense. concluded its work, a reasonable 10-15 minutes fo llowing the completion of its work, if LAMC Your Standing Committee on Industrial could then convene in that same committee Relations presents the following as its Third room. Report.

Madam Speaker: For the benefit of Your committee met on Monday, July 12, 1999, information fo r all members, the Legislative at 7 p.m. in Room 254 of the Legislative Building Assembly Management Commission meeting to consider bills referred. will take place fo llowing completion of the standing committee in Room 255. Your committee heard representation on bills as follows: Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, I appreciate the difficulty that that may cause yourself, but I am Bill 29-The Victims' Rights Amendment Act; Loi sure, with a variety of Acting Deputy Speakers, modifiant la Loi sur les droits des victimes 4224 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 13, 1999

Ken Mandzuik - Manitoba Association for Rights Your committee heard representation on bills as and Liberties follows:

Your committee has considered: Bill 47-The Municipal Assessment Amendment Act (2); Loi no 2 modifiant Ia Loi sur Bill 29-The Victims' Rights Amendment Act: Loi /'evaluation municipale modifiant Ia Loi sur /es droits des victimes

Mike McCandless - McCandless and Associates Bill 34-The Court of Queen's Bench Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act; Loi modifiant Ia Loi sur Ia Cour du Bane de Ia Reine Your committee has considered: et modifications correlatives

Bill 47-The Municipal Assessment Amendment and has agreed to report the same without Act (2); Loi no 2 modifiant Ia Loi sur amendment. /'evaluation municipale Mr. Helwer: I move, seconded by the honourable member fo r Charleswood (Mrs. and has agreed to report the same without Driedger), that the report of the committee be amendment. received.

Your committee has also considered: Motion agreed to.

Bill 25-The Municipal Assessment Amendment Standing Committee on Municipal Affairs Act; Loi modifiant Ia Loi sur /'evaluation Third Report municipale and has agreed to report the same with the following amendments: Mr. Denis Rocan (Gladstone): I beg to report the Third Report of the Committee on Municipal Affairs. Your committee voted to delete Clause 4(1) of the bill. An Honourable Member: Dispense.

Your committee also voted to delete Clause 4(2) Madam Speaker: Dispense. of the bill.

Your Standing Committee on Municipal Affairs Your committee also voted to delete Clause 5 of presents the following as its Third Report. the bill.

Your committee met on Monday, July 12, 1999, at 3 p.m. in Room 254 of the Legislative Building Your committee also voted to delete Clause 6 of to consider bills referred. At that meeting, your the bill. committee elected Mr. Rocan as its Chairperson and Mr. Helwer as its Vice-Chairperson. Your committee also voted to delete Clause 7 of the bill. Your committee had met on Monday, July 5, 1999, to consider Bill 25, The Municipal MOTION: Assessment Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia Loi sur /'evaluation municipale, and at that meeting had heard public presentations on the THAT Legislative Counsel be authorized to bill. The list of presenters to the bill is contained change all section numbers and internal in the Second Report of the Standing Committee references necessary to carry out the on Municipal Affairs. amendments adopted by this committee. July 13, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4225

Mr. Rocan: I move, seconded by the Bili 34-The Court of Queen's Bench honourable member fo r Gimli (Mr. Helwer), that Amendment and Consequential the report of the committee be received. Amendments Act

Motion agreed to. Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I move, * * * seconded by the Minister of Government Services (Mr. Pitura), that Bill 34, The Court of Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, I would ask if Queen's Bench Amendment and Consequential you could please, with leave where it is required, Amendments Act (Loi modifiant Ia Loi sur la call for report stage all remaining bills that have Cour du Bane de Ia Reine et modifications been passed and been reported by committee, correlatives), reported from the Standing fo llowed by, again with necessary leaves, any Committee on Industrial Relations, be concurred bills that have completed report stage, if you in. could then with leave call them fo r third reading, Motion agreed to. if leave is required. Bill 47-The Municipal Assessment Madam Speaker: Is there unanimous consent Amendment Act (2) of the House to proceed now with report stage on Bills 25, 29, 34 and 47? Agreed? [agreed] Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Development): Madam Speaker, I move, * (1440) seconded by the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns), that Bill 47, The Municipal Assessment REPORT STAGE Amendment Act (2) (Loi No. 2 modifiant Ia Loi sur I' evaluation municipale ), reported from the Bill 25-The Municipal Assessment Standing Committee on Municipal Affairs, be Amendment Act concurred in.

Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Motion agreed to. Development): Madam Speaker, I move, Madam Speaker: Is there unanimous consent seconded by the Minister of Highways and of the House to now proceed to third reading on Transportation (Mr. Praznik), that (Bill 25), The Bills 25, 29, 34 and 47? [agreed] Municipal Assessment Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia Loi sur l'evaluation municipale), as THIRD READINGS amended and reported fr om the Standing Committee on Municipal Affairs, be concurred Bill 25-The Municipal Assessment in. Amendment Act Motion agreed to. Hon. Darren Praznik (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I would move, Bili 29-The Victims' Rights Amendment Act seconded by the honourable Minister of Rural Development (Mr. Derkach), that Bill 25, The Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Municipal Assessment Amendment Act; Loi Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I move, modifiant Ia Loi sur l'evaluation municipale, be seconded by the Minister of Rural Development now read a third time and passed. (Mr. Derkach), that Bill 29, The Victims' Rights Motion presented. Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia Loi sur Ies droits des victimes), reported from the Standing Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Agriculture): Committee on Industrial Relations, be concurred Madam Speaker, I want to indicate that I concur in. with the passage of this bill.

Motion agreed to. Motion agreed to. 4226 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 13, 1999

Madam Speaker: Is the House ready for the Act. Is it the will of the House to adopt to question? motion?

Some Honourable Members: Question. Some Honourable Members: Agreed.

Madam Speaker: The question before the Madam Speaker: Agreed? Agreed and so House is third reading, Bill 25, The Municipal ordered. Assessment Amendment Act. Is it the will of the House to adopt the motion? Bi11 34-The Court of Queen's Bench Amendment and Consequential Some Honourable Members: Agreed. Amendments Act

Madam Speaker: Agreed? Agreed and so Hon. Darren Praznik (Government House ordered. Leader): Madam Speaker, I would move, seconded, I hope with his permission, by the Bill 29-The Victims' Rights Amendment Act honourable Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns), that Bill 34, The Court of Queen's Bench Hon. Darren Praznik (Government House Amendment and Consequential Amendments Leader): Madam Speaker, I would move, Act; Loi modifiant Ia Loi sur Ia Cour du Bane de seconded by the honourable Minister of Ia Reine et modifications correlatives, be now Government Services (Mr. Pitura), that Bill 29, read a third time and passed. The Victims' Rights Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia Loi sur les droits des victimes, be Motion presented. now read a third time and passed. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Motion presented. Speaker, this particular bill does set out the framework, if you like, fo r the appointment and Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam fu nctioning of masters fo r the Court of Queen's Speaker, very briefly, unfortunately I did not Bench. Masters perform a variety of judicial have the opportunity in second reading to put functions, and in order to maintain the just a few words on the record on Bill 29. It is a importance of judicial independence, we fe el positive piece of legislation which we have no that the legislation that we have before us is, in problem in terms of seeing through its passage. fact, quite necessary. Thank you. It deals in terms of compensation, and I think all of us would concur that the compensation fo r the Madam Speaker: Is the House ready for the victims should be the first priority. question? The question before the House is third reading Bill 34, The Court of Queen's Bench So, from what I understand, if there is any Amendment and Consequential Amendments sort of action taken against government by an Act. Is it the will of the House to adopt the inmate, that any sort of financial compensation motion? that the government would be obligated to provide as a result of something that maybe Some Honourable Members: Agreed. would have occurred for a prisoner in incarceration, that first consideration fo r that Madam Speaker: Agreed? Agreed and so money would go to the victims, I think ordered. something that is quite positive. Bi11 47-The Municipal Assessment With those fe w words, we are prepared to Amendment Act (2) see the bill go through third reading. Hon. Darren Praznik (Government House Madam Speaker: Is the House ready for the Leader): Madam Speaker, I would move, question? The question before the House is third seconded by the most honourable Minister of reading Bill 29, The Victims' Rights Amendment Rural Development (Mr. Derkach), that Bill 47, July 13, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4227

The Municipal Assessment Amendment Act (2); I want to say to the government that, even Loi no 2 modifiant Ia Loi sur !'evaluation though we are prepared to pass this bill today to municipale, be now read a third time and passed. give some protection against rate shock, I think it is fairly clear from the presentations we have Motion presented. seen and our knowledge of this issue from day one that this issue is probably going to come Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Madam back and haunt the provincial government down Speaker, I spoke on this bill at second reading, the line. There may very well be legal action and I want to put on the record on third reading taken on this. There may be, I think, some some of the concernsthat we have in our caucus presentations we will be hearing from the about the situation that the government finds municipalities. I know of at least two, Grand itself in. Rapids and Lac du Bonnet, which have already put assessment in on the hydro poles. * (1450) I do say to the minister, because I know that First of all, we did predict this would he is going to be hearing from ratepayers, from happen. We raised this issue during 1996 during municipalities, this probably is nothing more the debate on the privatization of MTS. In fact, than a temporary measure. We are not prepared, if one recalls, we raised this in committee at that by the way, to allow Manitoba ratepayers to be time. By the way, the committee never did deal subject to further rate shocks. The bottom line with all the amendments we had. here is that there have been enough rate shocks already from the fact that you have a private company now that is seeking to get $100 million Madam Speaker, we said at the time that this in profit from the ratepayers, which is far higher was an issue that had to be dealt with. than was sought by the previous Crown Traditionally Crown corporations have received corporation. It is higher because that private an exemption fr om assessment at the local company is now subject to federal and provincial municipal level. We said this was going to be a taxation. So they are now asking the ratepayers problem. At that time the government ignored to pay fo r that taxation. it. Right now we have at least two municipalities which have passed by-laws The difficulty we were in in this situation assessing such property, which is I think was that if we did not take some action currently something the minister is aware of. Not only we would see a situation where there would be a that, I think there is every indication we were to further rate shock. I know that is the only reason have one court challenge. We were looking at this government brought it in. the potential fo r several others. There are various levels of concern on this I want to put on the record that we certainly bill in terms of the whole issue. Obviously there predicted in '96 the fact this could lead to an is the question of what utilities should be subject impact on rates and of course on municipalities to assessment or not. I put our concerns on the themselves. What we are saying now by passing record. this bill is that by no means is this over. I say to the minister, and I think he realizes this, what I just want to finish off by saying that there has happened now is, because of the decision are various issues, whether or not municipalities made in 1996, we are seeing a compounding can assess taxation, the level of assessment, the effect. This bill does exempt not only MTS, apportionment, and I say on the record, we are which is a way of preventing rate shock in that supporting this bill to protect ratepayers, but this area, but other utilities that previously had not issue is going to come back in the future. I been exempted. So it appears that what we may know our Leader will expand on our concerns. see happening is some municipalities actually We want to put on the record, even though we losing revenues. This is because they are now in are supporting this, that there are going to be a position of having to try to deal with certain further problems in the future. Thank you, classes of property as being the same. Madam Speaker. 4228 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 13, 1999

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): It now that MTS is a private company, it should be is a regrettable responsibility to speak on this bill treated like the Supreme Court has treated the in this Chamber at this time, because many of us Inner-City Gas or the TransCanada Pipelines. a fe w years ago raised the issue of taxation and They will argue in the Superior Court that this taxation treatment dealing with the telephone legislation should be challenged because MTS system and its impact on consumers. In 1996, now is private company, and poles and wires when the Tories broke their election promise of should be treated like pipelines, therefore should 1995 and proceeded to sell the phone system, we be treated as assessed assets, and therefore as asked questions day after day about the tax assets that would be subject to the assessment ramifications of that decision and therefore its roles of various municipalities. impact on consumers. We asked those questions based on (1) the issue of the treatment of Tel us Ergo, a $6-a-month rate increase to deal in Alberta, and its changed status from a public with part of the broken promise on the massive to a private company based on CRTC decisions. broken promise of the Manitoba Telephone We had CRTC decisions that talked about both System by the Tories and by the Premier (Mr. rate of return and taxation on a private company Filmon), in particular. We, first of all, pointed and its impact. out that we did not think they could amend the previous Municipal Act, that it would be out of We further cited that Mike Harris, kind of order, and how unwise of a government to put a the new spiritual leader of the Conservative band-aid that was on a bill that was already Party opposite, had walked away fr om an before the Legislature to deal with their utter Ontario privatization decision because of the incompetence, I would argue, to deal with their consideration of income tax, that it could not sell deceit by putting an amendment to The Hydro because the income tax of a Crown Municipal Act in the second reading committee corporation would mean a massive increase to stage that substantively changes the bill and the ratepayers of Ontario, on top of the debacles substantively changes the regime of the property of the previous governments, Liberal and tax assessment, particularly, as it pertains to Conservative, in terms of nuclear power plants municipalities. and their inefficiencies and their cost, which was ultimately put on hold by the NDP government Madam Speaker, the government should of 1990. have thought of this legislation when it dealt at committee and when it broke its promise to sell Madam Speaker, we raised these questions the phone system. It did not. On the taxation and the governmentsaid, que sera sera, whatever score, we have now a private corporation that is will be will be. We know that taxes will be going to be subject to private corporate lower under a private company, and they went so considerations by the fe deral government, which far as to take false information and give it to the is going to raise the rates 40 percent. We also editorial board of the Free Press where there was have on top of that an issue of taxation fo r editorial that said taxes will be lower. They also property taxes that are also going to raise the went on to say that taxes will be lower, because rates considerably. Therefore, what is this the grants in lieu of taxes are higher fo r the Legislature supposed to do on this issue? phone system than the assessed value of the company would be in various municipalities. We are really faced with a Hobson's choice, because we could stand here and vote against it Two broken promises on taxes to deal with a and say: we told you so. That would be broken promise on the telephone system. So inconsistent with us. We, in the NDP, are always what do we have now? What do we have before on the side of the consumers and always voting this Chamber today? We have before this with the consumers of telephone and Chamber today a bill to deal with a huge band­ telecommunication services by wanting and aid that will be challenged in court based on the voting to keep the company owned by the pipeline decision, will be challenged in court by public. people working for municipalities and lawyers working fo r municipalities. They will argue that * (1500) July 13, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4229

Madam Speaker, I think that therefore we Madam Speaker, the Liberals at the Seven have to vote and continue to vote with the Oaks School Division I find having greater consumers. The Tories have voted with the integrity than the Liberals in Ottawa and the brokers. The Tories have voted with the brokers defeated Liberals that have been thrown out of in the sale of the company. They have voted Ottawa because of broken election promises, but with the brokers in disallowing a vote by the I digress. people of Manitoba when we had proposed a referendum and plebiscite, then we were An Honourable Member: We just want him to disallowed of even having that vote by the come here and see the farms. That is all we Speaker of the day, prohibited fr om having the want. vote in the Legislature to provide fo r a referendum fo r the people. The Tories opposite Mr. Doer: Yes, we would like to see John were dancing to the tune of the downtown Chretien in the fields. We would even loan him business community from Toronto and we were rubber boots. I know he does not have any of listening to the people here in Manitoba. his own rubber boots. I will even loan him work boots. He probably does not have any of those too. We will loan him anything to get him out in We did not have the ideological position of the fields of southwestern Manitoba and the Liberal Party that said: we are not opposed southeastern Manitoba so he can see for himself to privatization, we are just opposed to the way not only the floodingbut the telephone poles that they are doing it. used to be owned by Manitobans and have been sold to private interests. Do you want to speak An Honourable Member: We changed on this bill? Leaders since then. An Honourable Member: I do. Mr. Doer: Oh, you changed Leaders. I cannot keep track. There have been three Leaders since Mr. Doer: Okay. Because I would love to hear 1995. Who is the present Leader of the Liberal you speak on the bill, because I still recall with Party and what is their present position? the greatest respect to Ne il, to you in your Because I know that the present Leader of the legacy, I still remember the vote from the Liberal Party voted, well, first of all, they Liberal Party, the most profound vote I ever saw promised not to sell CN. John Chretien, in 1993, when three members voted three diffe rent ways. standing in front of the gates of CN, standing in One voted for it, one voted against it, and one the gates at Transcona saying: we will not sell abstained. Today I know we have a unanimous CN. Jon Gerrard I am sure was saying the same position in the Liberal Party, this week at least, thing. We will not sell the Canadian National from the member fo r I nkster (Mr. Lamoureux). Railways. I need a cup of hot water. Excuse me for a second. You know, you can put that with their promise not to cut health care; you could put that Madam Speaker, I was trying to engage the with their promise not to abolish the GST. I member for Inkster, and I apologize. Having mean, if this person has moral problems, and we said that, I am sure he will agree with us that this are dealing with politicians, he should not even is the biggest legislative band-aid I have ever be running fo r the Liberal Party after the broken seen on a broken political promise in all my promise on health care, on education, on CN, on years in this Legislature. This is a huge political GST. You know, what kind of integrity is that? band-aid to deal with an incompetent What kind of party is this member a part of? He government that did not deal with this in 1996 rails away against the Seven Oaks School and to deal, quite frankly, with a government Division. My God, all of them have a superior that misled the people in the 1995 campaign. moral standard, I would argue, than the rascals This will come back to haunt you. [interjection] I in Ottawa and some of the defeated rascals in beg your pardon. Yes, and so did the member Ottawa that are presently trying to play some for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale). So did I and I got part here in Manitoba. criticized. 4230 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 13, 1999

You know, I got criticized in an editorial everything we do is wrong. They got nine about this. I was told that we were wrong on budgets wrong, and this legislation is wrong. taxation in a Free Press editorial, and they waved This legislation-[interjection] I want to speak to it around. In fact, they blew it up so big, I do not the bill here not the heckle from members know how much the taxpayers paid. How much opposite. It does speak to the issue of did the taxpayers pay fo r Tories to blow up an incompetence and why this bill is before the editorial with "Doer is wrong" to be almost the legislature. It does speak to the fact that this size of some of the murals on these walls to try government is utterly and totally incompetent. to embarrass me? You know, the editorial said In fact, when you talk about incompetence, the we were wrong on taxation, both income tax, members opposite could not run a first-aid kit. and they were wrong on municipal taxation. They could not run a first-aid kit fo r the people of Manitoba. That is why the people that are in Now the editorial page is writing editorials: the hallways of our hospitals are still going to be Where is the NDP on this issue? I mean, give subject to a higher taxation potentially with a me a break. Give me a break. It is a good thing court ruling, because of their incompetent, I have a sense of humour, because the members deceitful decision to sell the phone system. opposite wave this around, you know, taxation is going to be lower under a private company. Madam Speaker, why is the government not Well, when am I going to get the retraction from admitting they made a mistake? Why are they members opposite fo r waving around those not saying that we misled the people of this editorials that were paid fo r by the taxpayers? province when we said that the telephone system Just do not bother me at all, by the way. I mean, would be taxed in the same way privately as if you cannot take a bad editorial, you better not publicly? Why did the Premier stand up in this be leader of the NDP. You are bound to get 10 a House day after day after dayin October of 1996 month at least. And if you vote one way, you and basically said that this will not have any will get it that way; if you get it the other way, impact on taxation? Why did that happen? you have it the other way. That is just part of the Perhaps if the House was not shut down, we job and if it has some import and gravitus to it could have gone on a little bit fu rther. Maybe and some good facts. Yes, sometimes they may we would have fo und this out. be right, because we cannot be right all the time. Sometimes the editorials can be right. Maybe the government would have listened But when they are wrong and the to our points of privilege, if our microphones government is wrong, why are they not standing had not been silenced. Maybe we could have up apologizing? Why are they not grovelling made some amendments to the bill that would before this Legislature, as they should, fo r not have prevented us from dealing in a haphazard, I telling the truth? Why are they not saying, oh, would argue, incompetent way some months please, members of the opposition, do not later. What is going to happen some time after hammer us for being wrong. Please pass this bill the election campaign when we are in office and to deal with our sins and our omissions and our we have to deal with this botched privatization? weaknesses and our faults and our deceits and What is going to happen if the courts rule and our dishonesty and our incompetence and our use the gas pipeline decision to jack up lack of any foresight and lack of any planning? telephone rates, because the members opposite Please, come forward and pass this bill. only cared about the brokers in Winnipeg and Toronto and did not care about the consumers? Well, the member heckles about the budget. What are they going to do then? They will I am proud of the fact that we voted against nine probably stand up in Question Period and ask us budgets. I am proud of the fact we voted against to fix the problem. They will probably do that. the budget that fired a thousand nurses, and Shameless. Utterly, totally, politically and when there is a budget that tries to rehire some principally shameless in terms of what they are of the nurses back, we are okay with that. The going to do. members opposite may operate like Pavlov's dog and operate like everything they do is right; * (1510) July 13, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 423 1

So I would argue strongly that this bill will band-aid to deal with their broken promise, a be tested in the courts. This bill is not as good as band-aid to deal with a broken commitment to our proposal to cancel the privatization. This the people of this province. It is not the best bill is not as good as our proposal that we had guarantee that the consumer has to protect put forward to have a plebiscite. This bill is not themselves from taxes. The best guarantee a as good as the absolute security of Supreme consumer had was breached with the Tory sale Court decisions to protect many public assets of the phone system and regrettably breached from the assessment rolls of municipalities with the passage of the privatization bill. through the provision of grants in lieu of taxes. So we will vote fo r this massive band-aid This Legislative Building is treated because we have always been on the side of differently than Great-West Life across the consumers, but we understand municipalities street. This Legislative Building pays grants in will be challenging this decision. Regrettably, lieu of taxes to the City of Winnipeg. The the consumers will be the victims, as they have Manitoba Telephone System was treated been all along, of the Tories' priorities to deal differently than TransCanada PipeLines. The only with the privileged fe w, the financiers, the wires on Manitoba Telephone System and the brokers, the banks that made the money on the poles were treated differently than the pipeline in phone system, the shareholders. The privileged the ground through Manitoba. In fact, you can few are the only ones the Tories care about, and even see in rural Manitoba the pipeline areas we care about the hardworking, fair-minded adj acent to the telephone wires, adj acent to the Manitobans who are trying to make ends meet. hydro wires. The courts had made a decision that the pipelines were taxable, and because So we will be voting for this band-aid but these are public enterprises, they were not with deep regret that we could not have taxable. It was grants in lieu of taxes. prevented this by supporting the amendments of the NDP to keep the phone system publicly So did anybody in that cabinet or that caucus owned. We know that the Hydro will stand raise that issue, or did you not care? Oh, do not court challenges because it is a publicly owned worry about it; we will just pass a law, and, you corporation. We know that grants in lieu of know, if the courts overturn it, it will be afterthe taxes have been tested in courts fo r decades, and next election. We do not care. We do not care Hydro itself, the only peril to Hydro is the re­ about the people. We do not care about the election of a Conservative government or a public. We do not care about the consumer. We Conservative-Liberal minority that would sell can dodge this and fu dge this and amend this and off Hydro. cover it up and band-aid it up. We only care about the short term. We only work in a fo ur­ year term. We just do everything possible to get We will not let that happen. Thank you very much, Madam Speaker elected, we try to get elected, and then dam the . consequences afterthat. Madam Speaker: Is the House ready for the That is what this bill says. Regrettably, we question? The question before the House is third are the ones that are going to have to deal with reading Bill 47, The Municipal Assessment this bill because we feel strongly that when the Amendment Act (2). Is it the will of the House members opposite screw up their courage to call to adopt the motion? an election, we are going to have to deal with municipalities challenging this legislation and Some Honourable Members: Agreed. pointing out the pipeline decision. Madam Speaker: Agreed? Agreed and so I do not know whether the government ordered. opposite has a legal opinion on this bill. If they do, they should table it in this House. The Hon. Darren Praznik (Government House government House leader should table the legal Leader): Madam Speaker, I would ask if we opinion in this House, because this is, at best, a could then returnto the concurrence process. 4232 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 13, 1999

Madam Speaker, I would move, seconded I say that because, and I quote right from the by the honourable Minister of Urban Affairs and letter: The government's own officials twice Housing (Mr. Reimer), that Madam Speaker do reported that no harm was done and that the now leave the Chair and that this House resolve matter was concluded. Each of the three itself into a committee to consider of the Supply investigations, which have been done, reached to be granted to Her Majesty. the same conclusion. There was no breach m security; there was a violation of protocol. Motion agreed to. Mr. Chairperson, the author of the letter, or at least the signatory of the letter I know is COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY Claudia Sarbit, and no doubt is acting at least in good fa ith by getting information from the Consideration of Concurrence Motion school division. The Minister of Education has been very clear in his response to me, and fo r The Acting Chairperson (Gerry McAlpine): that reason I have continuously tried to get to the The Committee of Supply has before it fo r bottom of this particular issue. But someone is consideration the motion concurring in all wrong here. Is it the Minister of Education? Is Supply resolutions relating to the Estimates of it the signatory of this letter? I think that is a the expenditures fo r the fiscal year ending the legitimate issue that does need fu rther comment 31st of March. 2000. on.

*(1520) Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Chairperson, you know they say timing means a Another point again reinforces the first lot in terms of virtually any aspect in life, and point. Manitoba Education, and I quote: prior to walking into Question Period, I was in Manitoba Education officials investigated this the cafeteria and made a quick jaunt up to my incident immediately and declared that while office to grab my jacket. Leaning against my protocol had not been fo llowed, Mr. O'Leary's door was an envelope fr om the Seven Oaks actions represented no threat to the examination, School Division, which I just kind of grabbed security, and they deemed the matter closed. and took along with me and opened it up during Well, again, I would argue someone is wrong Question Period. I started to read the letter that here, and I would like to know who is wrong. I was inside and fe lt actually compelled to ask this think that is quite legitimate, to pose that question. I can honestly say I had no intentions question. on asking this particular question or a question related to the Seven Oaks School Division today, but, upon reading the letter, I thought it would in I cannot recall the last time I had talked to fact be appropriate. I say that because I think Ms. Sarbit. It has to be a good year at the very what it does is it again assists in the arguments least, and this incident is about that age. I can of the need for an independent inquiry. assure you that I have never discussed this matter with Ms. Sarbit. Mr. Chairperson, I do not know if I need to read the entire letter into the record, but there are Another part of the letter, which really two or three points in particular that I take great offends me, and I question whether or not it was exception to. A couple of the points, I believe Ms. Sarbit that actually wrote this letter, I would the Minister of Education (Mr. McCrae) has be interested in knowing if in fact she is the one addressed, and I would think should cause grave who wrote this letter or did she have the letter concern from the Minister of Education in the written, and then she had signed it off. That is sense that I cannot say with a hundred percent the suggestion, and I quote: The suggestion by certainty who is right and who is wrong. But, Mr. McCrae and Mr. Lamoureux and Mr. suffice to say, someone is definitely right and Filmon that this matter still requires further someone is definitely wrong, and there is no investigation by an independent inquiry indicates doubt about that. that this issue has nothing to do with education July 13, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4233 and everything to do with party politics and an the investigation. These are things in which I upcoming provincial election. would be a little bit more careful or selective, as I am attempting to be. Members might know Mr. Chairman, if Ms. Sarbit made that that quite often I will say some things which I allegation inside this Chamber to me, I would fe el and maybe not have done as much research take great exception to it and, in fact, would be as I could have done, but I always like to believe up on my fe et in some fo rm and using one of our that I am doing what I fe el is right and must be rules, whether it is our rules and procedures, addressed. Beauchesne's, privilege or points of order, in reference to imputing definitely unworthy The integrity of those standards exams has motives. been called legitimately into question. To this date I do not know if there was any sort of I have continuously maintained, virtually reprimand. To the best of my knowledge, there from the onset, that what we are talking about is was not any fo rmal or informal reprimand of the the integrity of the standard exams in the individual. At the end of the letter, the school province of Manitoba. For someone to believe division then talks about Mr. Treller and says not that that integrity is not worth protecting and to worry, not to fear, that this is something being a school trustee, I think that there needs a which always happens. Well, how naive. That re-evaluation in terms of why it is that one might is so incredibly naive to believe that Mr. Treller's even be in that position. reputation has not been damaged by this.

As a school trustee, you are trusted with the I was there when there was a number of responsibility of providing quality public teachers, his fo rmer peers, who sat around and education. There are expectations that, as a said that this teacher was being demoted because trustee or as a board, you are expected to fo llow. he ratted on the principal. Now, if we want I find it incredibly difficult to understand how to try and say, well, those people that were someone can or the board, to quote: imply that sitting around, because I did not see their this issue has nothing to do with education and teaching certificates, that is a given, but if you everything to do with party politics. want to say that I was set up to walk into this particular meeting, that they knew that I was If we look at what the public, including the meeting with other people there, well, that would constituents that live in Seven Oaks School be stretching the coincidence. But I will tell you Division, would want to see, it is quality public something, the perception is very important. I education. Well, I think Manitobans have believe politicians, of whatever political stripe, acknowledged and recognized the important role even apolitical politicians at our local level, that standard exams play in ensuring that quality realize the importance of perception. public education, and all three political parties inside this Chamber agree with that. The perception that Mr. Treller was just I was on CJOB, the Adler on Line round talk transferred over because he was a wonderful show in which there was the Minister of teacher and this is just normal procedure, if they Education, the critic from the New Democrats believe that that was the perception that is out and myself, and all three of us, speaking on the there, I think that they really better start behalf of our respective political parties, questioning the superintendent and anyone else endorsed standard exams. One has to realize that was involved in this whole issue. I know, at that the standard exams have virtually no value least it has been indicated, because someone, and if in fact you are not able to protect the integrity I hope to, and if I do not, I trust that the Seven of those exams. I do not know if the entire Oaks School Division will ensure that the school board has actually read the report. If I were a trustees are provided a copy of the comments school trustee, I would be quite concerned in this afternoon. But, Mr. Chairperson, I find the terms of it appears there are allegations of more whole issue of Mr. Treller absolutely amazing. I than one breach, of allegations of potential do not want to claim to know the reality of all of conflict of interest in terms of who is conducting the details, but I do know in terms of a good deal 4234 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 13, 1999 of the harm that was caused to Mr. Treller, who been raised to me by individuals that I have has been-and I tried to get hold of Mr. Treller a respect fo r in terms of political affiliations of while back, and I was told by someone else who certain members of the school division had given me a call that Mr. Treller will not be administration and the potential fo r conflict. able to return my call because he has been Today I bring fo rward a letter which he was cc'd instructed not to talk to me. Well, who is the a copy of. one who actually instructed Mr. Treller not to talk to me? You know, I found it interesting. Someone had made reference to, well, in the letter, * (1530) everything to do with party politics and upcoming provincial election. Well, read the cc would welcome correspondence or list, Mr. Chairperson. The cc is to the Premier communication from Seven Oaks School (Mr. Filmon), to the education, to the deputy Division. If there is no election that comes up minister, the Minister of Environment (Mrs. over the next little while, maybe we can even Mcintosh), the Leader of the Liberal Party, the attend one of these school division meetings and Leader of the New Democratic Party, and try to get some of those questions answered. myself. Why was Mr. Treller instructed that he cannot talk to me? If they believe that there is Well, I guess at least in part, you know, I absolutely nothing wrong, nothing to fe ar, then would agree with the school division that there is what fe ar do they have in Mr. Treller talking to a political background to this. That is the reason me? Was it the school trustees that instructed why I have consistently argued that any Mr. Treller? Was it the administration that investigation of any value cannot be tied into the instructed Mr. Treller? Was it the school Department of Education. You cannot have Mr. division or the school trustees who instructed the Carlyle conducting an investigation. It would be administration to instruct Mr. Treller not to talk no better than the investigation that we received to me? fr om the Seven Oaks School Division. You know, the politics of this issue are there. There Well, you know, if we want to get to the is a lot of politics in it, and I acknowledge that. bottom of this, Mr. Chairperson, in reading the letter, as I indicated, offends me, offends You know, one of the things that I have personally my intelligence and my motivation always been convinced of, and I somewhat fo r pursuing this. I really believe that the letter heckled it to the Minister of Education (Mr. gives credibility to the whole notion, which I McCrae) yesterday, was that if this principal had have been arguing now fo r weeks, and that is fo r been a Tory principal-you know, the Finance an independent investigation. minister is the fo rmer principal I think out in Minnedosa. If this would have been Mr. I do not know what more the Minister of Gilleshammer and he was still a principal, we, Education (Mr. McCrae) needs in order to see and I say we collectively, the opposition, it the merits fo r an independent investigation. In would not be just two of us in the Liberal Party fact, I would argue that the Minister of fighting fo r justice on this issue, would have at Education only has two choices. The firstchoice the very least 25 MLAs fighting on this issue is to accept the report as written, and the second and to the extent of asking fo r the minister's choice is to agree to an independent resignation. There is absolutely no doubt about investigation. I do not understand why the that. Minister of Education continues to want to avoid making the commitment towards that So is there politics? Sure, there is politics in independent investigation, especially when it. I do not question that. That is the reason why things continue to happen to justify the need for I have stated that it has to be an independent an independent investigation. investigation. In reading the report, I do not know if the school division actually has a copy Yesterday, I brought to the attention of the ofthe report. The school trustees will have more Minister of Education other concerns that have information than what I would have if they have July 13, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4235 the report, because my edition is whited out. Inkster has been recognized. Honourable But, surely to goodness, they must give some members who wish to carry on a conversation credibility, I would hope, to some of the other should do so outside the Chamber. Order, allegations that are being made. Right offhand, I please. can recall one individual quoted as saying that he would be able to attest to another breach in a Mr. Lamoureux: As I was saying, if the court of law. Well, that raises a great deal of minister wants to draw this issue to a conclusion concern. and a conclusion that would include protecting What is really interesting is in reading the the integrity of the standards exams, the minister letter one would get the impression that maybe needs to call for an independent investigation. I you get the Liberals and the Conservatives kind appeal to the Minister of Education, and, no of wringing their hands, saying, yes, justice has doubt, when I sit down the minister tends at to be served here, so let us do what we can. I times to be somewhat long-winded. I should not can honestly say, Mr. Chairperson, and I will not complain too much. At times I am too a little bit mention names, but I have had members from long-winded, but somewhere in that wind, that the New Democrats and the Conservatives who we see an answer, a very specificcomm itment to have expressed a great deal of concern in regard the need for an independent investigation. to what has taken place, that there are even New Democrats who do not support what has actually * (1540) taken place, and I respect that. I make reference to it because to try to heighten or to enlarge, to The Minister of Education, I am not asking demonstrate the importance of this record­ for the minister to say, yes, we will have an [interjection] And I am sure that the member for independent investigation and Mr. or Ms. X is Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes) will concur that going to be responsible fo r that investigation. there are all sorts of discussions that occur All I am talking about is a commitment to the amongst MLAs, and if I have misspoken any independent investigation, and then we can have confidence, I would apologize fo r it. some dialogue over the next week, if it takes a week, to come up with a name of an individual. But what I do know is the issue that is there, I do not believe it would be appropriate. I politics aside, is of a very serious nature. I personally would not have any problem in terms would like to see the Minister of Education (Mr. of sitting down with the author of the letter that I McCrae) address this issue. and there is only one have made reference to and the Minister of way in which the Minister of Education can Education and seeing if there is a name which address this issue. I posed the question we can all concur to in terms of conducting this yesterday to the minister, and I have posed the independent investigation. It does not have to be question previously to the minister to call fo r an a costly adventure or venture. "Adventure" is independent investigation. The minister has a probably a poor word to use in describing it. In copy of the letter. I know he has a copy of it terms ofcost, I think we are looking at a fraction because it is cc'd to the minister, and I see it in of the cost of what the cost of the standard his hands. exams actually is. Surely to goodness, the Minister of Education has to acknowledge that there is no We spend millions every year in the chance or opportunity fo r an independent report standard exams. I think that spending a fraction coming out of the Seven Oaks School Division, of that cost in order to protect the integrity of and if you do not agree with the report that we those standard exams is money that is well spent have here today, well, Mr. Chairperson, then the because, and I will say it very clearly so that all Minister of Education only has one choice, and members of the Chamber understand, there are a that is to have another investigation. If the great number of people that are watching what minister believes-[interjection] the government is doing. I was in fact at an event over the weekend where someone from the The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): public who I did not know approached me and Order, please. The honourable member for posed questions about this very issue. It is the 4236 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 13, 1999 first time that I know of that I actually met that what grade, whether it be Grade 12, Grade 9, person. So there are a great number of people Grade 6 or Grade 3, which is the position that that are watching the actions of this Chamber in this government takes and for good reason, if addressing the issue of the standard exams. you are going to do that, then you better have a system that is fair to the children in every comer So, in conclusion, I would ask for the of the province of Manitoba, so that children in minister to indicate very clearly that he wiii in every comer of the province of Manitoba can fact be conducting an independent investigation, confidentially go about their school career thereby protecting the integrity of the standard knowing that there is integrity in the system in exams and provincial directives as a whole. which they are engaged day in, day out, year in and year out. That message is equally important Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Education to be received by parents of those children and Training): At the outset let me tell the across this province and perhaps at least as honourable member, as I have done before, I important, if not more so, to every teacher believe that the vast majority of the people of engaged in the development of our children Manitoba want quality in their education system; through the public school system. the vast majority want fairness in their education system. When I say they want that quality, they So if there is a suggestion that a teacher want good, solid curriculum. In the last fe w somewhere or a school principal who has a years under the New Directions to education significant responsibility in the school begun by my predecessors and carried on by environment, if there is a suggestion that a myself, one of the pillars of New Directions is principal somewhere in Manitoba has breached good, solid curriculum. the protocols associated with the standards testing system, then something needs to flow In my travels, and they have been fa irly from that. What needs to flow from that? Well, significant in the fe w months I have been it is like anything else, and I do not equate what minister, I have learned from members of the Mr. O'Leary did with what happened in other teaching profession, whom I respect, that we matters which were the subject of the Monnin have good, solid curriculum and we continually review. I do not equate it with what goes on in develop it. Our teaching profession would like our criminal courts. I do not equate it with what to make sure that the government is mindful that goes on anywhere else but in our education they have got a big job to do in adjusting their system. There are dimensions here that go well methods and their approaches to these new beyond that which I will get to. curricula. I am mindful of that and sensitive to that. But I take this allegation-this fa ct, because Mr. O'Leary has acknowledged his misdeed Another piilar is parental involvement. here-and look at it fr om the standpoint that I Parents are very clearly in favour of a system of must as the one who is charged with the standards and a system of testing against those responsibility fo r having some integrity in our standards and the performance of the system and education system. I am taking what the the individual performance of the children in our honourable member fo r Inkster (Mr. system. So that at the earliest possible time in Lamoureux) has said most seriously. I, in no the development of children, we can find out way, wish to make light of anything the where we are succeeding and where we are not honourable member fo r Inkster has said. I succeeding and where we can improve and make especially put that on the record because of all of adjustments to make the learningexperience one the people in this House, I think the honourable that is fulfilling fo r our children and one that member fo r Inkster is probably the best results in their being in a position to live happily acquainted with the circumstances, perhaps not and fruitfully in this province in the future. all the details, but certainly the people, the neighbourhood, the region of the city of So testing against those standards is one of Winnipeg in which all of this has transpired. So those pillars, too. If you are going to have a it is out of that background that I approach the province-wide system of testing, in no matter questions being raised by the honourable July 13, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4237

member for Inkster. He has people no doubt us just all be brothers and forget all about inquiring of him, well, what is going on here, whether our kids can succeed or not, we will just who did what, to whom and when, and all of give them welfare when they grow up, never those kinds of questions. mind having a quality education, and will even have classes to show them how they can get What are we supposed to think about the welfare. This whole issue points out a whole way the government is running its education philosophical difference between the New system if there are people who without any care Democrats and members of the other parties in or concern seemingly break the rules of security this House. I say "parties" because I assume the and cheat on the tests? I mean, what are we Liberal Party does not agree with the NDP on supposed to think? If it is okay for a respected some of these things. So there is a very big person in our community, the principal of our political dimension, and anybody who wants to high school to break the rules and with impunity, pretend there is not is on some other planet, or does that mean it is okay for everybody else they are certainly extremely naive. [interjection] including, as the honourable member fo r Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak) asks: what about John So the honourable member for Broadway Carlyle? John Carlyle is the Deputy Minister of (Mr. Santos) asks a very interesting question: Education. how can there be an independent inquiry if this is the environment within which all this is taking The honourable member for Kildonan is not place? wrong to raise the question because as the letter points out today, it is the allegation of the Seven Well, you know, I think, as a department, Oaks School Division in the position it takes. It the Education department has to take for granted wants to be totally politically aloof of course. In that school divisions are headed by elected this letter copied to the CBC Radio and the people and will do the right things. That is what Premier (Mr. Filmon) of Manitoba, myself, the you have to do until something demonstrates Deputy Minister of Education, the former otherwise. Minister of Education, Dr. Jon Gerrard, Leader of the Liberal Party, the Leader of the New Democratic Party, and the member fo r Inkster, The honourable member for Broadway this nonpartisan approach that the school would be the first to remind me of this: we are division is taking, we do have to remember here all expected to look upon each other in this that there are political dimensions to this. House as honourable members. In fact, even the [interjection] rules tell us, we have to accept the word of an honourable member in this Chamber. That is *(1550) our duty to do that unless and until something intervenes to show that we should not do that Anybody who thinks there are not political anymore. Then there are certain sanctions in implications and dimensions to this issue is place for that. living in some other world, and the honourable member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak) knows Mr. Edward Helwer, Acting Chairperson, in the that. You cannot escape the fact that the school Chair principal I referred to is presently the chairman of the election campaign for the New The same goes fo r the relationship of the Democratic Party of Manitoba. This is not Department of Education with the school denied by anybody. But that is another divisions with which it partners in the education dimension of this. of our children. Why a year ago, back in June­ July of 1998, should the Department of Speaking as Education minister, it is a very Education have taken any other view but that the important issue the honourable member raises Seven Oaks School Division could be trusted to respecting the integrity of the standards test. look appropriately into this alleged breach that Just because the NDP do not believe in had been made? Why should anybody suggest standards, just because the NDP just want to let the Department of Education should have treated 4238 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 13, 1999

Seven Oaks School Division some way different We have been through a difficult time with from any other school division in this province? respect to wrongdoings by people. We have been through that, and the Premier (Mr. Filmon) The answer is: it should not. The answer is: of Manitoba very courageously did the right it did what it should have done and asked the thing by asking fo rmer Mr. Chief Justice Alfred division to conduct an inquiry or an Monnin to look into all matters, and if the investigation-actually, what was asked of the honourable member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett) division, I think, gets fo rgotten in the debate. wants to suggest that that was not done with But we were asked: there was a breach that took vigour by Mr. Monnin, let her do so. place in your division; what are you doing about it? That was basically what was the genesis of Point of Order all of the things that have flowed since. Mr. O'Leary's wrongdoing is something he Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): On a point of acknowledged, so that what flowed from that, all order, I would like to remind the Minister of this business about Mr. Treller, the allegations Education (Mr. McCrae) that the Premier (Mr. coming forward, is very disturbing. Filmon) stated in this House day after day after day in June of 1998 that there had been nothing You know, if you read the report and look at wrong that had happened. He had all the blanks, those blanks stand fo r names of "investigated." and nothing had happened. people, real, living, breathing people in our Manitoba community. There are people in this It was only after repeated questioning day House who, fo r their own reasons-none of them after day in the House by the official opposition have told us what those reasons are-tend to gloss that the Premier finally, not with vigour and not over the fact that real, breathing human beings courageously but with his tail between his legs, are affected in some way or another by this did the right thing. So let the Minister of matter. So, if somebody does wrong, other Education not sit here in this House and impugn things happen. That seems to be the suggestion motive to members of this side of the House here. when he puts inaccurate information on the record about the behaviour, the despicable So a whole lot of other things come out of behaviour of his own Leader. this. We end up getting people like Mr. Brodbeck writing for the Winnipeg Sun saying The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Helwer): The all kinds of things, things like: "Doer changes honourable member fo r Brandon West. on the rules to suit the NDP. After criticizing Tories, same point of order. he bends his own ethics." Mr. McCrae: On the same point of order, Mr. We get people, Frances Russell, writing in Chairman, in response to the honourable the Winnipeg Free Press, saying: "Mr. Doer member fo r Wellington, this is June of 1999, and dropped the ethics ball on the very first pass." today the tail of the Leader of the Opposition is That is what Frances Russell said. not between his legs. The Leader of the Opposition is not part of this discussion. He has So I guess when we get any lectures about made sure that he would not be part­ ethics fr om New Democrats, we cannot assume [interjection] This is July of 1999. Thank you to that we are hearing it fr om those who have any my colleagues in the NDP fo r bringing that particular expertise in the matter. So that is clear. another dimension. There are two main dimensions here. Both of them are important. I On the point of order, Mr. Chairman, I think there are those who suggest the political remind the honourable member of what I said on one is not important. Well, those who suggest June 23 about this point of order. The one thing the political one is not important are those who the Leader of the Opposition needs to have something to hide or something to protect. understand, if he wants to have credibility with I suggest they all sit on the other side of the the people, he should learn to face issues head­ Chamber from myself. on instead of running away from them and July 13, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4239 hiding. That is not leadership. Leadership Did anybody else see the exam? Mr. requires courage, something the honourable Brodbeck asks. We will never know. The point member does not have, and he is not willing to is, Mr. O'Leary knew releasing the exam could ensure that his own campaign manager is above compromise the fairness of the entire exam reproach. process. I guess that would be making a mountain out of a molehill, the fairness of the The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Helwer): The exam, total exam process in every comer of the honourable member for Wellington does not province of Manitoba. Much ado about nothing, have a point of order. It is a dispute over the I guess, according to the Leader of the facts. Opposition (Mr. Doer) spoken through the honourable member for Brandon East (Mr. L. * * * Evans).

Mr. McCrae: One thing I can say about the The students rely heavily, and this is very honourable member for Wellington (Ms. important, on Grade 12 exam results to get into Barrett), I think what we heard from her today is, university. Well, they also rely on it fo r other other than the honourable member for reasons. I will point this out to Mr. Brodbeck. I Crescentwood (Mr. Sale), I believe-probably mean, they want to get into college. They also more said by the New Democrats about this want to be able to do a good job if they go matter has been said by the honourable member straight to the workplace or wherever else they fo r Wellington today than has been said in total are going. They rely heavily on Grade 12 exam by the whole party. The silence is absolutely results to get into university. I know people who deafening, but it was interesting to hear the have their Grade 12 diploma on their officewall. honourable member for Brandon East (Mr. L. They are proud of it. It is an achievement. Evans) from his seat say that what Mr. O'Leary did is much ado about nothing, what Mr. But now the suggestion is that, because of O'Leary did, and that the honourable member for this breach of the protocol, the security protocol, Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) is just making what is that diploma worth? Until we know the mountains out of molehills. answers, I do not think we know the answer to that question either. You simply have to have Well, let us talk about that molehill, because not only examination security being done but Mr. Brodbeck did in his comments or in his also being seen to be done, and this is important. writing in the Winnipeg Sun. He says that teachers might have been tipped off about what It was a clear breach of his ethical was on the exam. Well, we do not know that responsibility as the head of Maples Collegiate and I am not saying that, but that may have to ensure all students in Manitoba had a fair happened, too, and that would have given some crack at writing the exam, but apparently it was teachers an unfair advantage over others when not a serious enough breach of ethics to warrant preparing their students. It is the very reason a reprimand from his other boss, Gary Doer. why there are strict rules governing the Now that is the other dimension here, the administration of standards exams. political side.

Were O'Leary's actions a deliberate attempt The honourable member fo r Inkster (Mr. to give his school a leg up? Well, that is a good Lamoureux) rightly asks-and the honourable question, because we do know that this member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett) may have particular school in terms of the published some wisdom to share with us on this point as results of these exams was behind the average. she did on the last one. The honourable member But we do not know that. I know the honourable for Inkster was raising the question about the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) would like role of Mr. O'Leary, and I am raising it in to find that out. It is the very reason why there relation to his role as campaign manager for the are strict rules. Manitoba New Democratic Party. Of course, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) has patted * (1600) him on the back and said: You know, you said 4240 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 13, 1999 you did wrong and therefore it is all over; no the role of the principal of the Maples Collegiate harm done. in his role as a volunteer, is way out of line, that what is sauce fo r the goose is sauce fo r the Well, with regard to that, why is it that we gander. The political games that are being see such a double standard on the part of the played here are games that are being played New Democratic Party? Why do we have such a between the Minister of Education (Mr. McCrae) double standard, especially of the Leader of the and the member fo r Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux). New Democratic Party, who has waxed- The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): The honourable member fo r Inkster, on the same Point of Order point of order. Ms. Barrett: Mr. Chair, on a point of order. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Chairperson, I do not would like to remind the honourable Minister of know if it is the same point. I will let you Education that the Minister of Justice (Mr. determine that after hearing my comment on it, Toews) finally last week, or within the last 10 because I am concerned about the potential of days, after days and days of questioning in the imputing motives. House admitted-well, four diffe rent kinds of stories, but finally admitted that he had made an If I understand the member fo r Wellington error and took responsibility for the gang hotline (Ms. Barrett) correctly, she is trying to say that not being confidential as it should have been. So of the hundreds of schools in the province of he admitted to his mistake, his error in judgment. Manitoba that if a principal opens or breaches the security of standard exams. that if they get The Premier (Mr. Filmon) did not do caught doing it, all we have to say is that I anything other than say in the House-and I think should not have opened it and nothing should if you check Hansard, the Minister of Justice, I ever come of it outside of that. If my cannot remember the exact language, admitted interpretation is wrong, please ask the member that the situation had not unfolded as it should fo r Wellington to correct me on that point. have, and that was the end of it. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): Now I would like to ask the Minister of The honourable member fo r Wellington does not Education-and this is the Minister of Justice's have a point of order. It is a dispute over the job we are talking about, not a volunteer facts. position. The principal of- Point of Order The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): Order, please. The honourable member had Ms. Barrett: On another point of order, I would risen on a point of order, and I would ask her to like to say that the member fo r Inkster is not address the matter with regard to the point of putting accurate information on the record. The order and make her point of order now, please. employer of the principal, the school board, Seven Oaks School Board, has done three Ms. Barrett: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I am in the investigations, two or three investigations of this process of doing that very thing. situation and has ruled, as a result of those investigations, that the situation had been dealt An Honourable Member: She was just about with adequately. there. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): Ms. Barrett: I was just about there. My point Order, please. The honourable member does not of order, Mr. Chair, is that the Premier accepted have a point of order. the Minister of Justice's acknowledgement that the process had not functioned as it should, did * * * not remove him from his position. I would suggest that the parallels are striking here and The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): - that the Minister of Education, who talks about would remind all honourable members that when July 13, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4241 they are rising on a point of order that they do in this issue reside and vote. I think the people address the point of order and not get into debate of Inkster-and what is the riding where Maples about the issue that is on the floor. If there is a is located? legitimate point of order, then the Chair is willing to acknowledge and listen to that, but I An Honourable Member: The Maples. would ask the honourable members not to abuse that right of the House to rise on a point of order * (1610) for no apparent reason. Mr. McCrae: People from Inkster and people Point of Order from The Maples and all Manitobans are interested in knowing that there is integrity in Mr. Lamoureux: On a point of order, I am not our school system. The people of Inkster and a hundred percent sure if it is a point of order, the people of The Maples are interested in but I think that there is some benefit, and I do knowing that their MLA is concerned about this not know if the rules can accommodate it, but I matter. The people of Inkster would not be very know that there has been a lot of will from other happy to know that their New Democratic parties so that we could actually ask questions in candidate is among those who are laughing at regard to this particular issue to try to get a what happened at Maples Collegiate, that the better understanding of people like the member member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett) who wants fo r Wellington. Are there any rules that would to be the member for Inkster joins with her allow fo r us to pose some questions, whether it colleagues in saying that what we have here is is to the member for Wellington or other much ado about nothing and in associating members, which could ultimately have an impact herself with all of the comments made by the on an independent investigation? honourable member fo r Crescentwood (Mr. Sale). The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): Just fo r the benefit of the honourable member The people of Inkster would not be very fo r Inkster, we are in the process of concurrence, happy to know that about the honourable which is an opportunity for the member to ask member fo r Wellington who wants to move over questions of the minister. That is the scope of to Inkster and take the place of the honourable this exercise. member, the present member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) who is trying to get the government * * * to get to the bottom of this situation so that the people can be assured that there is some integrity The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): in the school system, and as I try to make my When the honourable member for Wellington case for integrity in the school system, the rose on a point of order, the honourable minister member fo r Wellington in her trite, protective had the floor, and I would ask the honourable cover-up way, stands to her fe et to try to minister if he has concluded his remarks. interrupt the proceedings, to try to deflect attention away from what her friend Brian Mr. McCrae: I am just getting my throat O'Leary has done. cleared, Mr. Chairman. The plot thickens. The honourable member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett) hope that the honourable member has put some flour and milk into the pot and it is understands this Mr. O'Leary did something that thickening, because the honourable member for he has acknowledged is wrong. That is a done Wellington wants to be the honourable member deal. That is over with. Now, where do we go for Inkster. As I understand it, in the upcoming from here? What do we learn from that? The election, the honourable member for Wellington honourable member for Wellington would is proposing to put her name on the ballot for the suggest that we have nothing to learn; we are New Democrats and run against the honourable New Democrats. We know better, and this is member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) in that making mountains out of molehills. We are sure constituency where I understand the Maples going to go after the Tories when they do Collegiate and many people who are interested something wrong, and we are sure going to 4242 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 13, 1999 demand the head of the Minister of Justice (Mr. and then giving us a political discourse as to Toews) when he does something wrong, and we what might happen in the future. It is not are going to demand the head of the Premier relevant, and I ask you to call him to order. (Mr. Filmon) and anybody else whose head happens to be sticking out when it comes to any Mr. McCrae: On the same point of order, two other matter that might be the subject of points here. The honourable member, he fo rgets criticism, as long as they are a Tory. But, oh, if altogether this is not Question Period, and the they are a New Democrat, Mr. Chairman, they rules that apply to Question Period do not have that royal jelly. They are anointed. There necessarily apply to Committee of the Whole, is something about them that is not accountable, where there is a level of tolerance on the part of that makes them so that they are above that sort the Chair which usually prevails in these of thing. matters.

That is the position of the honourable The other point he fo rgets altogether, this is member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett) who wants indeed concurrence in the Estimates. We to take on the honourable member for Inkster already know the outcome, Mr. Chairman. The (Mr. Lamoureux) and replace him, representing honourable member fo r Kildonan (Mr. the people of Inkster. That is what she wants to Chomiak) and all his colleagues in unison rose do. She wants to substitute her values and her to their fe et to support the budget brought down ethics for those demonstrated daily in this House by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Gilleshammer). by the honourable member for Inkster. The Liberals tested them during the process Point of Order of Estimates review, tested them a few times to see if they had the courage of their conviction to Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Mr. stand in unison and joyfully support a Tory Chairperson, on a point of order, I draw your budget, with the expectation that an election was attention to Beauchesne's and to our around the comer and they knew they could not parliamentary practice here where there should do better anyway. All the while, the member fo r bear some resemblance between the question Brandon East (Mr. L. Evans) says it is an un­ asked and the response of the minister, some sustainable budget, but if it is so unsustainable, sense of relevance. The minister has spent the why are all those New Democrats standing to last I 0 minutes attacking various members, their fe et and supporting it? which is his right to do, but not in the fo rm when the member for Inkster asked a specific question, These people are very hard to understand, and I will paraphrase the question again, are you Mr. Chairman. So on the point of order, on the going to conduct an investigation, and the matter of relevance, the honourable member fo r minister's announcement again, another 10 Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) has been raising minutes of going through his usual diatribe that questions about what happened at Maples he has done for the past fe w days on the same Collegiate and what is being done about it. That issue. is exactly what I am talking about. The New Democrats are tremendously sensitive about this It is not relevant to the question asked, Mr. matter because who was it that did this thing that Chairperson, and I ask you to call the minister to was so wrong? That was Mr. Brian O'Leary, order because there is much business that must who has been given a pat on the head by the be conducted in this Chamber with respect to Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer), who said it concurrence, and if the minister continues to go is all right, we can weather this particular little off on irrelevant matters-the minister can go on storm. as long as he wants and for half an hour on relevant matters, but he is completely irrelevant The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): when he goes away fr om the issue of the Order, please. The honourable member for investigation which was the question posed by Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak) does have a point of the member for Inkster and when he goes down order. I would remind all honourable members the track of attacking the member for Wellington when they are speaking to the issue that has been July 13, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4243

raised that they do remain relevant with regard * (1620) to the questions that are asked and what is before this House. Regardless of whether it is in You know, the honourable member says, Question Period or in Committee of the Whole, well, so what are we going to do now? I do not relevance is a factor. So I would remind all blame the honourable member for Inkster for honourable members when they are speaking to pressing me on this matter and doing it quite a the issue to remain relevant. bit actually. I do not blame him for doing that because I know his constituents, served by the The honourable minister, to complete your Maples school catchment area and others, are on response. his case, probably daily, saying, what are you doing about this? I mean there are things here * * * that need to be looked into, and the Seven Oaks School Division does not appear to have done a Mr. McCrae: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate your very good job investigating this matter. What ruling and accept it, of course. are you doing about it as our elected member?

With regard to the question raised by the Well, if the honourable member for Inkster honourable member for Inkster (Mr. (Mr. Lamoureux) were the honourable member Lamoureux), the honourable member for for Wellington (Ms. Barrett), we know what the Wellington (Ms. Barrett), in regard to this honourable member for Wellington would be particular matter and very relevant there too, doing. Guess what? Nothing. Absolutely raised the issue of the Minister of Justice (Mr. nothing. That is why Frances Russell says the Toews) and said that the Minister of Justice took ethics test stumps Doer. Because ethics to responsibility, and this is true. honourable members opposite is simply having a standard for everybody except yourself, exclude As I said at the very beginning of my yourself from that standard. It brings about all comments, none of these cases are exactly the of the worst elements of the human condition to same, but let us take this very case and let us present to the people of Manitoba. That is what assume that Mr. O'Leary was the campaign New Democrats are doing in the face of this chairman fo r the Progressive Conservative Party matter. or, for that matter, campaign chairman for the Liberal Party of Manitoba. Let us ask ourselves: I simply have to do my job. The honourable would the New Democrats be calling that member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) is pressing making a mountain out of a molehill? Would me to do my job. New Democrats are off the New Democrats be calling that simply much somewhere else, wallowing in their own little ado about nothing? Would the New Democrats world of let us stick it to the rest of the world be saying to the Premier (Mr. Filmon) of and protect ourselves at all costs. That is where Manitoba your campaign manager breached they are at, and it is regrettable, because people security protocol? Well, actually we do not like to think they have choices between two or believe in tests anyway. We believe in allowing three good options, although, unfortunately, for our children to go forth into the world various reasons, people tend to go to the polls unprepared so they can seek welfare. So I guess thinking: well, I have to pick out the best of it is all right. these three evils. I fe el badly about that, always have. I do not think that is deserved, but that How does that scenario add up? Do you may sound a little defensive coming from a really think that would happen? And can pigs politician, so I will not dwell on it for very long. fly, Mr. Chairman? I am asking you, if you think the NDP for one minute would sit silently The fact is that we, I guess, share and talk about much ado about nothing if Mr. responsibility, all of us do, for the regard in O'Leary were campaign chair fo r the Progressive which we are held by members of the public. Conservative Party? Now, that is a case that has Sometimes that regard is not particularly high. been made by the honourable member for To that extent, I regret that. I would like to work Inkster, too. to improve that. I think some steps have been 4244 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA ------July 13, 1999

made to try to improve that impression of the does not appear to support the report as politicians. But I would not be doing my job if I submitted, then I would go further to make the did not do something to ensure some integrity in statement that all three political parties do indeed something I believe in, that being standards tests. want to see an independent investigation. Is it because the New Democrats hate tests that they are taking this position? Is it because they Mr. Acting Speaker, I think that in itself like Brian O'Leary? Is it because they like Mr. addresses a major component to the letter. I Wiens? believe that the letter, at least my interpretation of it, is that we just leave the issue and consider Yesterday, the honourable member fo r the issue resolved. Given the position of the Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux), raised questions about three political parties inside this Chamber and Mr. Wiens. I do not have the answers about the the willingness to see another investigation done, political persuasion of Mr. Wiens, although the but via an independent mechanism, I would then honourable member fo r Inkster has made some ask the Minister of Education (Mr. McCrae) interesting suggestions about that. I have no whether or not he will take this into particular evidence to suggest that-[ interjection] consideration when it comes to making a decision sooner as opposed to later. The last person who called me a jerk in this House was Eugene Kostyra, and I do not There is a suggestion in that statement that it appreciate being called a jerk by anybody, is being done in order to pre-empt a potential including the honourable member fo r Wellington provincial election. If members fe el that that is (Ms. Barrett). If this is the way she is going to in fact the case, one could always have a report approach her conduct as a member of the back in the latter days of September if that Legislative Assembly, woe betide her when she would address that particular concern, or faces off against the present member fo r Inkster immediately fo llowing the provincial election, if in that particular riding and faces the judgment that is one of the roadblocks for this issue as of the people. You do not get places by calling being suggested by the Seven Oaks School people names, and the honourable member for Division when they imply that it has to do, and Wellington ought to know that by now. If that is quote: with party politics in the up and coming what they resort to when they are put under the provincial election. slightest bit of pressure, woe betide us all should we ever look to them fo r any particular kind of The timing of the actual reporting in of the example fo r how to conduct ourselves in public infraction or of the breach and alleged additional life. I do not call you names, ever. breaches, there does not have to be an obligation to have that report itself in prior to the next Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Chairperson, I wa11ted to election. The issue is to ensure that some fo rm reread one part of the Jetter. It states: The of independent investigation occur. My suggestion by Mr. McCrae, Mr. Lamoureux and preference is that it occur immediately and it Mr. Filmon that this matter still requires further report back within two weeks, two, three weeks. investigation by an independent inquiry indicates It does not have to be a long drawn-out process, that this issue has nothing to do with education but if that is in fact the concern from the school and everything to do with party politics and the division or other members inside the Chamber, I upcoming provincial election. would even be prepared to enter into dialogue as to when that report should be released to the Mr. Acting Speaker, I ask a fa irly specific public, that independent report. As I indicated, I question for the Minister of Education: given personally would have no problem whatsoever that you have the New Democratic Party and the in sitting down with the author of this letter and Liberal Party calling fo r an independent the Minister of Education, in trying to resolve investigation, and I think, from what I interpret this, with the idea that the most important thing with the dialogue that has been coming from the here is the quality of our public education and government benches over the last number of the important role that standard exams play in days in which we have been dealing with this ensuring quality public education and the issue, that dialogue being that the government importance of the integrity of those standard July 13, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4245 exams through the security measures that we put spending any money on this assessment in place. business, you should be spending it in the classroom. I am sensitive to what is being said Again, I would illustrate that the cost of this there, but on the other hand, it is used as an would only be a fraction of what the overall cost argument not to satisfy ourselves that we have of administering the standards exams is. quality being built into our education system. I Specifically, to the minister: would he agree to do not accept that argument. I believe that have a meeting that would include, but not something less than 1 percent of the total necessarily prevent additionals from being added expenditure in education being spent on to it, myself, the Minister of Education, the evaluation of whether we are spending it well is author of this letter in hopes that we can come probably a good idea. Not probably, is a good up with a name that would be through consensus idea. Anybody engaged in results-oriented as to who could conduct the independent efforts needs to know that they are getting investigation? Would he be prepared to sit down results. and at least have dialogue on that point? We were being told prior to New Directions Mr. McCrae: I know the honourable member in education that our kids were arriving at for Inkster has raised the issue of cost in the past, university and college unprepared, and yet we I think, to head off any argument I might make were spending more and more money every year about cost with relation to getting to the bottom on education. I simply have no difficulty of the matter of test security in Manitoba. I explaining or defending the concept of spending would just like to say to him: the cost is not the a few dollars of a large budget or a small issue here. I know that whatever needs to be percentage of a large budget to ensure quality. I done will cost some money, and it is always think anybody engaged in any initiative of prudent to keep that in mind. But it ought not to importance would agree with that, unless you are be the reason to ignore some of the things the a New Democrat. honourable member is raising, to say, well, it might be nice to get to the bottom of it and The New Democrats think you measure the protect the integrity of our system of education success of something by how much money you in Manitoba, except that the cost would prevent can spend on it. That is not an approach with us from that. I simply want to give him some which we have ever agreed. We have learned comfort about that, because I am not into that we should measure the success of our spending money with gay abandon. education system by what our children are learning. How are you going to find out what * (1630) your children are learning if you do not have a system of tests, something to assess how you are Mrs. Myrna Driedger, Acting Chairperson, in doing? So, that being said, I wanted to give the the Chair honourable member some comfort on that point.

We have seen what happens to us as a Yesterday he actually went on to name a province when governments get involved in that name of a person who might conduct a review of sort of thing. We have tried to steer a diffe rent this matter. course from that approach. But in the ordinary course of doing the government's business, from An Honourable Member: Who was that? time to time inquiries of one kind or another or whatever steps need to be taken need to be Mr. McCrae: Well, he mentioned Bill Norrie. taken, and so you have to deal with that. That is okay for the honourable member to do that, but you know it was interesting. A lot of The honourable member in this regard as things have come to light. The honourable well refers to the cost of the administration of member for Inkster also raised the suggestion tests. This is something that the NDP-I know that Mr. Wiens may be an adviser to the New the Manitoba Teachers' Society have raised the Democrats on education policy. I do not know cost and have said, you know, you should not be that, but in the light of that suggestion, I am not 4246 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 13, 1999

likely to go along with what the honourable represented Mr. O'Leary, depending on which Leader of the Opposition has said, and that is if job he was in. there is to be a review, then it needs to be done by somebody who is acceptable to the Seven I have a document from a handbook revised Oaks Division. Excuse me. And this is where I in 1995, Code of Professional Practice. This is a am having problems with the suggestion of the Teachers' Society document. It says as fo llows honourable member fo r Inkster as well. on page 20: The Code of Professional Practice states the general principles of conduct for all Ifthe honourable member is suggesting-and members of the Manitoba Teachers' Society. I am saying they did not do a good job. I am These tenets are intended to inspire each saying the report that has been produced is not member to engage in professional behaviour of satisfactory, and if I am going to have that the highest order. A teacher's professional reviewed, I do not know that I want to be behaviour reflects the spirit as well as the letter consulting the school division on my choice of of the code. who or how we are going to go about remedying that situation. So I say that for the benefit of the First, the teacher's first professional honourable member because the Leader of the responsibility is to her or his students. Well, Opposition puts his tongue firmly in his cheek, what about that? Does this have a bearing on the and gives that little grin, and says, yes, there matter being raised in this place by the should be an inquiry as long as it is somebody honourable member fo r Inkster? Professional acceptable to the school division. responsibility to his or her students.

Second, a teacher acts with integrity and Well, you know right away where the diligence in carrying out professional Leader of the Opposition is coming fr om. More responsibilities. Are all the allegations being cover-up. More covering up fo r your friends, raised about this matter consistent with that more double standard. And I am simply not second tenet of the Code of Professional Practice going to play the game with the Leader of the of the Manitoba Teachers' Society, that having to Opposition of you have a standard fo r you, and do with acting with integrity and diligence? we can have our own standard. I am not going to do that. Mr. GerryMcAlpine, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair Speaking of standards, the Manitoba Teachers' Society also has a role in our Third, a teacher avoids involvement in a education system, a very important one, and I conflict of interest, recognizes that a privileged have enjoyed what I think to be a cordial and relationship with students exists, and refrains hopefully fruitful relationship with the Manitoba fr om exploiting that relationship fo r material, Teachers' Society. But I think if there is to be a ideological or other advantage. Well, we know further review of this, whatever measures I take, Mr. O'Leary is a staunch New Democrat. After it should take into account the issues we have all, he is their campaign manager. We know the been discussing in this committee, the NDP hate tests. Where does Mr. O'Leary stand honourable member and I, because it is a two­ on that? Does he love them? Does he hate way discussion because the New Democrats them? Where does he stand? How does that fit simply do not want to get involved. This is just with this third tenet of the Code of Professional a little too close to their political nerve endings, Practice of the Manitoba Teachers' Society? A but the NDP has introduced a code of ethics. Of teacher avoids involvement in a conflict of course, we know what has been said about that, interest. Does this have the flavour of a conflict not only by myself, but also by Frances Russell of interest? and Tom Brodbeck and now others. Fourth, a teacher speaks and acts with The Manitoba Teachers' Society has a Code respect and dignity and deals judiciously with of Professional Practice too, and the Manitoba others, always mindful of their rights. This is Teachers' Society, I understand, represents or beyond the scope of what I will be doing in July 13, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4247 fu rtherance of this matter, but the honourable reasonable grounds for suspecting child abuse to member rightly raises the issues related to Mr. proper authorities according to legal Treller and, I assume, other teachers at The requirements. Maples school whose names are in the report, but blanked out. The first part of that tenet may be the area which I would prefer not to get too close to I think probably of all the people in this because, as the honourable member for Inkster House reading the report, the honourable (Mr. Lamoureux) has said rhetorically, I think, member fo r Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) can make was one person here rewarded and another the most sense out of that report than any of us. punished, and what is the perception of all of Even so, he wants to know what the government that? is going to do to ensure that there is integrity in our education system, and that is a reasonable question. So I simply read these tenets from the Code of Professional Practice into the record, because Fifth, a teacher respects the confidential I think it is important for Manitobans to know nature of information concerning students and that the members of the Manitoba Teachers' may give the information only to authorized Society do attempt to bring out the best in personnel or agencies directly concerned with members of the teaching profession by having the students' welfare. Now, I do not know things like a Code of Professional Practice. I whether or not this item has a bearing on the give them great credit for having a Code of actual opening of a test protocol. It has a sign on Professional Practice. the front of it: do not open. I do not know if this comes into the code of the tenet No. 5 here The eighth tenet says: A teacher does not respecting the confidentialnature of information. by-pass immediate authority to reach higher I think it has a reference to confidential authority without first exhausting the proper information about individual students, and I do channels of communication. not think there is any real suggestion here about that. No. 9 says: A teacher makes an ongoing effort to improve professionally. Now, No. 6, however, is the following: a teacher's conduct toward colleagues is No. 10: A teacher adheres to collective characterized by consideration and good faith. I agreements negotiated by the professional will just leave that one there and ask the organization. honourable members to consider that tenet of the MTS Code of Professional Practice. A teacher's I think I will just move right along and not conduct toward colleagues is characterized by say anything more about that one. consideration and good faith. Was all that demonstrated here? I mean, was it simply a No. 11: A teacher neither applies fo r nor matter of breaking open a test package or did accepts a position which is included in a society that then amount to something else? I am sure in dispute declaration. these questions arise.

* (1640) I am not going to touch that one with a 10- foot pole either. No. 7: Tenet of the MTS Code of Professional Practice says: A teacher directs any No. 12 says: A teacher or group of teachers criticism of the professional activity of a makes only authorized representations to outside colleague to that colleague and only then, after bodies on behalf of the society or its local informing the colleague of the intent to do so, associations. Without the express permission of may direct, in confidence, the criticism to the society, no member conferring with outside appropriate officials. It goes on: It shall not be bodies may explicitly or implicitly claim that considered a breach of this clause to report they represent the society. 4248 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA ------July 13, 1999

I think that is enough to give you the flavour conversation, that they do so out of the that for the most part, other than those parts I did Chamber. not want to really talk about very much, the Manitoba Teachers' Society maintains a Code of The honourable Minister of Education and Professional Practice and encourages its Training, to continue a response. adherence to all teachers throughout the province. No doubt, in any review, I do not Mr. McCrae: In direct response to the question know if the Seven Oaks School Division made raised by the honourable member, I just simply reference to this Code of Professional Practice say I have trouble, having said that I find the when it did its review of this matter. But as I report of the Seven Oaks School Division to be say, reading the report, one is left with the unsatisfactory, running off to them to ask their impression that there is something missing here. permission as to who or how the matter should be taken fo rward fr om this point. I do hope the One is led by the letter referred to today by honourable member fo r Inkster (Mr. the honourable member fo r Inkster written by Lamoureux) will understand my position on that Claudia Sarbit, chair of the Seven Oaks School matter. There are analogies that I prefer not to Division, copied to CBC Radio, the Honourable use, but I might do so privately in discussion Gary Filmon, James McCrae, John Carlyle, with the honourable member about that Linda Mcintosh, Jon Gerrard, Gary Doer, Kevin particular aspect of his inquiries to date. Lamoureux, protesting too much politics makes me think maybe there is somebody protesting I do find a lot of things about this report to too much about the politics dimension of this be interesting. One of the things that I findmost matter. There certainly is politics, which is one interesting is the derision of the members of the dimension, but there is another dimension which New Democrats to the fact that, in order to probably has a more important and lasting protect people's names and reputations, their import here, and that has to do with our children. names are blanked out of the report. They find that funny, and they find it comical. They are I think that the honourable member for just having a wonderfu l old time over there in Inkster is doing his duty in raising these the ranks of the New Democratic Party questions. I have said to him that I look at The celebrating the wonderfu l achievement of their Public Schools Act and I see very, very friend and leader, Brian O'Leary. significant powers at the disposal of the Department of Education, shared powers with They are going to find out from the people school divisions that to this point the department of Manitoba that this is not so funny, because if has done what it could do in asking the school the roles were reversed, as the honourable division to carry out a review and certainly to member fo r Inkster has pointed out, there would advise what has been done about this. We are be demands for people's heads on a platter if told that nothing hasbeen done about this by the Brian O'Leary was the campaign manager fo r the division itself and that no harm was done. Tories or fo r the Liberals. Yet is it not interesting how positions can change and how Well, in saying that, you know, to say that, the horns can come in when you are dealing with as the NDP say, no harm was done,. So Brian your own? O'Leary is a fine fe llow. As Mr. Brodbeck would say, that is about as credible as arguing So I guess the NDP fam ily is looking after Tory effo rts to rig the election in 1995 caused no itself, and that is about as much as can be said harm at all, because all the ridings targeted by about the way the New Democrats are handling them were won by the New Democrats. Well, this. But I find it hard to understand people who the NDP did not accept that argument­ stand to their fe et to talk about ethics on a [interjection] regular basis, people like the member for Broadway (Mr. Santos), and others, who, I say, The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): is an ethical person and he stands in his place Order, please. I would ask the honourable and talks about that. But what is he doing members, if they wish to carry on a today? What is he doing today in light of what July 13, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4249 is going on in his own party, in his own political The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): Is family? there leave for the honourable member for Broadway (Mr. Santos) to respond to the I wonder, does he agree with the member for honourable minister? Is there leave? [agreed] Brandon East (Mr. L. Evans) when the member for Brandon East suggests that the events Mr. Santos: I am grateful to the honourable surrounding the wrongdoing of Mr. O'Leary is minister for giving me this opportunity to make simply making a mountain out of a molehill? a statement which is not mine. This is the Does the member for Broadway agree with that? statement that I read from page 209 of The Does he agree with the member for Brandon Imitation of Christ by Thomas a Kempis, and I East, who says that the questioning of the quote: "For the most part of men are given to honourable member for Inkster is much ado talk much, and therefore little trust is to be about nothing? Well, I will tell you. placed on them." Thank you.

An Honourable Member: How can I answer? The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): The honourable minister, to finish your response. Mr. McCrae: On a point of order, you can answer. Mr. McCrae: Mr. Chairman, I cert ainly appreciate that statement, which I think brought The Acting Chairperson: The member for some new light on this whole discussion. We Broadway, on a point of order. will have to analyze the statement made by the member for Broadway quite carefully, I think, to be able to grasp the profound nature of its Point of Order implications fo r all of us in this discussion this afternoon. Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway): It is not a point of order. I just want to respond. I do not Having heard from the honourable member break the rules just to make a statement. If it is a for Broadway on the point, who has admitted point of order, it is a point of order. If it is a that he simply was quoting someone else, we are response, it is a response. left in somewhat of a vacuum yet on where the true ethics of the members of the New The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): Democratic Party are. Order, please. If the honourable member wishes to respond after the honourable minister sits I think that Frances Russell put it rather down, the honourable member may do so. well. I think Tom Brodbeck put it rather well. I think on that side of the issue, they are fac ing a Mr. Santos: I will read from the- serious issue of hypocrisy in their ranks. They have a serious problem with a double standard. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): The trouble with double standards is, until you Order, please. I j ust finished saying that when realize you have a problem with it, you do not the honourable minister is finished his response, think you have a problem with it. You go the honourable member for Broadway will have merrily on your way thinking, I'm all right, Jack, an opportunity to answer that concern. and that the whole world can go by and you can just go along in your little make-believe world *** that everything is okay in our camp. It is all those other people that are bad. Mr. McCrae: Mr. Chairman, speaking for myself, I would give the honourable member a It is only my, what is it, the mother watching couple of minutes to make a response. I would the parade of soldiers going by and her boy was ask for leave for that to happen. the only one out of step, but the mother looked at the parade and said: everybody is out of step * (1650) except my son, Johnny. 4250 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA ------July 13, 1999

You know, I think that the NDP are a little An Honourable Member: "Ignomonious" bit guilty of that right now. They are simply not defeat. able to be objective enough to look at their own concept of what is right here and what is not Mr. McCrae: "lgnonimously." right here. They can so easily and quickly see what is deficient in others, but they are having a An Honourable Member: Yes. real problem finding any shortcoming in their own rank. Mr. McCrae: "Ignonimous."

An Honourable Member: What is it about sty An Honourable Member: "Ignomonious." in the eye or something? Mr. McCrae: Is it "ignomonious?" Mr. McCrae: There is a biblical expression, An Honourable Member: "Ignomonious." and the honourable member fo r Broadway (Mr. Santos) might be able to help me if the Mr. McCrae: Check it out. I think it Is honourable Minister of Labour (Mr. Radcliffe ) "ignonimous." cannot. It says something to the effe ct that you do not talk about the mote in the other fe llow's An Honourable Member: Maybe you are eye if you have a beam in your own. Now, I right. think that is fairly loosely put, but it comes to mind. Like I said, maybe somewhat simpler, I An Honourable Member: The Education said: maybe honourable members opposite minister would like that spelling. should look in the mirror once in a while and take a harder look at themselves when they set Mr. McCrae: We are debating on the spelling out each morning to go out and simply criticize of that particular one. I know that in a moment everybody else and get paid for doing it. That is of parliamentary debate and the heat that what they do. That is their job. They are paid to surrounds it, Eugene spoke of me in that way, be critical. As they get up in the morning and and I did not like it then. I think of it to this day, look in the mirror looking fo rward to another and I thought: what a hurtful thing to say to day of Tory bashing, maybe they should take a somebody, when really all you are doing is little harder look in that mirror and say, oh, but, engaging in debate. Calling people names, in you know, is my own backyard clear here? my view, does not really fit.

Another one is that people who live in glass hope the honourable member fo r houses should not throw stones. I heard t!lat one Wellington (Ms. Barrett) reconsiders that too. I imagine a fe w more could come fo rward. because I have always enjoyed the honourable member fo r Wellington in this House, in the sense that she does try to look on life a little But the honourable members, I am so used more lightly than her latest outburst suggests, to hearing those things from them that I am but maybe the honourable member fo r Inkster surprised at the dead silence that I am getting, has got her pretty frightened about what is going other than the odd bit of name calling, which I to happen in the upcoming provincial election. hope does not persist, because I do not think it is If that is the case, maybe I will not bother her very becoming of the parliamentary traditions of anymore or bring out that sort of response fr om this place for people to be calling other people her, but by calling people names the member fo r names. Wellington may soon learn that constituents do not appreciate that sort of demeanour in this or The last person who called me a jerk was any other place. Eugene Kostyra, and whatever happened to him? We know that he is a big shot in the labour The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): unions, but we know what happened to him in Order, please. I would like to suggest that the the election that fo llowed his calling me a jerk. committee temporarily interrupt its proceeding July 13, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4251 so that Madam Speaker may resume the Chair so the officialopposition did have a role, at least on that we can determine whether there is one occasion to raise the issue. Being an unanimous consent of the House to waive educator himself, I am sure he can appreciate the private members' hour. If there is, the importance of professional behaviour and Committee of Supply can immediately resume provincial directives. The member for sitting to continue considering the matter now Broadway, who, I have indicated, has been very before it. Agreed? [agreed] candid in the past, I would look to the member for Broadway in possibly entertaining one or two IN SESSION very brief questions. He departs wisdom every so often in terms of when we had the member House Business stand up and he had asked for leave, we had given him the leave, and he made a quote Hon. James McCrae (Acting House Leader): something to the effect that if you talk a lot does I believe there might be interest in waiving not necessarily mean that it is good talk. private members' hour this afternoon. Now somewhat profound, one might say, Mr. Deputy Speaker: Is there leave to waive but I am sure that the member for Broadway private members' hour this afternoon? Leave? (Mr. Santos) would acknowledge that many of [agreed] the issues that the public have given attention to via or from the media is because of persistence Committee can resume now. Thank you. of members ofthe opposition day in and day out. Very repetitively, opposition members will bring COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY up an issue and appear to bring it up endlessly. I could talk about spt:eches that I have heard in the Consideration of Concurrence Motion past where memb(:rs of his own caucus have stood up and debated endlessly. You want to The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): talk about repetition, whether it was the Jay Order, please. The honourable member fo r Cowans of the past on final offe r selection or the Inkster. member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) on the Manitoba Telephone System. I am sure the Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. member for Broadway would acknowledge that Chairperson, I was expecting, you know that at it all serves a purpose. times inside the Chamber there is always a little bit of jostling and words being tossed out and We would not want to take away from the about, that type of thing, and I always respected importance of that purpose, much like I am the individual from Broadway (Mr. Santos) in baiting the member for Broadway in hopes to get terms of the way in which quite oftenhe is quite the member for Broadway to take some form or candid in his place. When the Minister of state some opinion on the record as to what he Education was trying to express some frustration believes actually had taken place. Was it an in terms of how we sit trying to as much as ethical behaviour by what happens to be their possible address this particular issue, I was a campaign manager? Is it appropriate? This is little bit optimistic that, when the member fo r the question that I would be asking the minister: Broadway would stand, he would actually state is it appropriate for a principal of any school to something in terms of what he fe lt was important stand up, open up an exam, and this time-and I from his perspective on this particular issue. do not know if there were other times, there were allegations, but if you unseal or break a * (1700) provincial directive, all you have to do is acknowledge that you broke the provincial Outside of his Leader's call for an directive and there should not be any sort of independent investigation, there is very little that consequence outside of that? has been said, and I am sure that the member for Broadway would acknowledge, at the very least, On the surface., that is what it would appear. that this issue is of some significance in which As I have alluded to and the Minister of 4252 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 13, 1999

Education has alluded to, what would the I did not make the political connection when members' opinions really have been if it would I firstbrought it up back in July of last year. In have been someone, a principal, that was fact, when I brought it up a number of weeks ago completely apolitical? My suggestion to you in the Education Estimates, the Minister of would be that in Education Estimates, if not in Education was doing nothing. I had to get the Question Period, your critic would have stood up minister to get him to go and find out in fact and asked the question in terms of what took what has actually taken place. It was not politics place and what is the government doing. Given that was driving it originally, but it has taken on the political nature, if it would have been the a very political flavour, and that is the reason Conservative campaign manager, I really believe why members of your caucus would shiver if in that I would not be alone. And the only reason fa ct you were to agree through leave to answer why it is getting as much debate as it is today is questions. because of the political nature of the principal. One of the allegations that has been put forward is the super-[interjection] For sure, and So there are a number of things that come this is the backdrop fo r the minister in posing out of this. One is the standard exams, the the question-one of the allegations that I made integrity of the standard exams, along with the reference to yesterday was there is the strong issue of a teacher and his reputation amongst his connection with the superintendent who peers that was perceived. Because of his conducted the investigation. I have been told he reporting it, this teacher and many of his peers was a speaker at NDP conventions, that he is an perceive that he was demoted as a result. The education policy adviser fo r your political party, teacher in question was even, from what I have and he is the one who conducted the been told-because the teacher has been banned investigation. Is that not a conflictof interest? to talk to me, I have been told cannot speak to me. And there are many within that school that You read the Jetter that I just got today he was transferred out of that believe he was which your Leader was sent a copy of. The transferred because he reported the breach of statement that is given shows that no, no, there is security. absolutely nothing that is wrong that occurred here. [interjection] Well, I do not know if my In that document, and I do not know if the vocabulary would allow me to articulate to the member or other members of the caucus have point in which this issue needs to be addressed. actually read the report, there are other But what I do know is that a principal is one of allegations of the same school breaking the our leaders in our communities, and we expect breach of the standard exams on more than one our principals to behave in a professional occasion, one of which a person is prepared to manner. When there is a breach of that attest in a court of Jaw that it actually occurred. professionalism or breach of the standards So the message that goes out to the other high exams, is there not some sort of an obligation to, schools, whether it is our Gordon Bells of the at the very least, get on the record in expressing north end, the Sislers-and I say those schools that: Look, I should not have done it. Maybe it because those are schools where I know the is just a slap on the wrist that would originally member for Broadway (Mr. Santos) is familiar have occurred. with kids who graduate from these schools. What we are talking about is what obligation is But today what we have is many, and I have there, and I believe that the minister sent out a heard fr om people outside of the city of directive. If you disagree with a directive Winnipeg who are fam iliar with what has taken entirely, there still is a professional place. I have heard stories of other breaches that responsibility for you to fu lfillthat, even if you I have not been able to substantiate. One was disagree with it. There are a lot of questions where a principal had students doing other regarding that particular issue. If we do not activities, so they would not have to write the address it, then what message are we sending to particular exam. If three political parties all other jurisdictions, and that is the reason why, agree to the standards exams, is there not an first and foremost, I believe it is an issue. obligation fo r us to ensure as much as possible July 13, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4253 that there is a sense of fairness and that that not been my experitmce in my dealings with the security is an important component to the honourable member for Inkster. My impression standards exams? That is why I believe that it is has been that he tends to call them as he sees a critical issue. them, and after a fair examination of the issues from his standpoint and from that of his Having said that, you know, the member for constituents, he brings these matters fo rward in a Broadway (Mr. Santos), whom I do respect and I somewhat relentless and tenacious way that am not trying to trap to get onto the record-! defies one's ability to put him off. I accept that, make mention of that just for food for thought. I knowing the important nature of these know the member for Broadway will do just allegations and the implications for all of us, for that. our children and for the system of education that we have carefully cultivated over generations in * (1710) this province.

Having said that, I do think the Minister of So I do not in any way wish to treat this Education (Mr. McCrae), given the background matter in any way that is not with a great deal of that I have just talked about in regard to the responsible deliberation on the issues that we are issue-there is one question that I would ask, and looking at. They are serious matters. I know that is the time frame issue. The Minister of that some have said that they are nothing, they Education is not committing to calling an are not important and do not matter. I have independent investigation but would appear to tried to be fair about that particular allegation or be committed to having some other fo rm of a suggestion too and look at it from the point of report or something else done in regard to the view of the likes of the honourable member fo r issue before us. Brandon East (Mr. L. Evans) who says that this is much ado about nothing. The more I look at it Could the Minister of Education indicate from that standpoint, the more I have to disagree very clearly to the House: what time frame does with the honourable member for Brandon East he believe he has to operate under in terms of and his Leader, the Leader of the Opposition calling fo r an independent investigation? Is (Mr. Doer), who has chosen to be silent about there not an obligation sometime in the near this matter, simply to hope that it goes away future that in fact an independent investigation pretty soon. I do not think the honourable would be called if it is going to be called? Can Leader of the Opposition will get his wish on the Minister of Education enlighten us? this matter because, unlike him, I have to be responsible for our education system and the I do have a couple of questions that I was stewardship of it. also wanting to pose for the Minister of Culture and Heritage, so unfortunately this would be my I see the joking continues on the other side last question to the Minister of Education on this of the House, and at some point they will take issue. So I hope that I would be provided the this matter seriously, I suggest, Mr. Chairman-at opportunity to do a couple of fo llow-up some point. I am not the one who can say questions with the Minister of Culture and exactly when that will be. Heritage. Thank you. Hon. James McCrae Minister of Education The issue of standards tests, put yourself and Training): The honourable member fo r into the Manitoba scene a year ago when Inkster throughout his conduct of this matter, in standards tests was a much more hotly debated my view, has attempted to steer a fair course. item than it is today. Thanks to the good work He has attempted to represent in an appropriate of educators right across this province, the way the views of constituents as brought to his department, my predecessor, Manitobans have attention. I think I need to say that because not come not only to accept standards tests but to everything I do meets with his approval, and I embrace them and to respect them and to see the guess maybe, if I say that, I could hope that he value of them, but to demand that there be would blunt his criticisms somewhat, but I am integrity in their administration, to demand that sure I would hope that in vain because that has there be fairness to every child no matter where 4254 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 13, 1999 in this great province of ours. That is what is at Having said that, I do have a fe w questions the base of what the honourable member fo r for the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) is raising with me, and Citizenship (Mrs. Vodrey). It is in regard to that is what is at the base of what I will do in immigration. Immigration has and will continue response to the issues being raised by the to be of the utmost importance to me personally honourable member. because so many of the constituents that I represent are very much so attempting whether it I ask him to give me enough credit fo r is reunification of families to visitors and so wanting to be very careful in the way that I fo rth, trying to, what I would say, enhance our handle this, knowing there are tremendous community by having more fu ll participation. political overtones to this matter. I do not want to be any part of any response that suggests only Having said that, one of the biggest concerns a political response to what is a real issue, a real I have always had is in regard to visiting visas. fairness issue to the children of this province. I The reason why I bring it fo rward to the Minister will not sacrifice the rights ofthe children ofthis of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship today is province to protect one person. I will not do because I want to see if I can get assurances in that. The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) terms of that the minister is aware of the tends to want to do that, and his colleagues, but I problems that many Manitobans are having in will not and I do not have to. I would not do it terms of getting visitors to the province. In for somebody on my side, should the same thing particular, I am thinking in terms of whether it is have happened. Now honourable members from the Philippines, from India, from the West opposite will no doubt have their comments to Indies, areas in which I get numerous requests in make about that, but the silence on the other side terms of assistance in trying to get people that speaks volumes about where they stand on this have been turned down visas to come to the matter. province. So if the honourable member for Inkster Just as a general backgrounder, Mr. Chair, (Mr. Lamoureux) will bear with me fo r just a the impact that people visiting the province little while longer, I will be able to make known make is very positive, and I am sure the minister to him the response of the government to this could talk to her colleague the Minister of matter. I hope it will be seen by him and by all Industry, Trade and Tourism and will see, Manitobans to be an appropriate and meas11red whether it is the social fabric or our economy, response to what is surely a serious matter that how it benefits us having people coming to the needs to be dealt with in a serious way, because province to visit. Now what I have found first­ all of the children across this province are hand by trying to represent people who are potentially affected and all of their parents are hoping to get members of their fam ily and others watching. For that reason I ask the honourable to visit the province is that visiting visas are member simply to bear with me for a short while turned down more often than I care to see, and I longer as I very, very carefully study the do not know if, in fact, it is justifiable in terms of appropriate response fo r the government to the numbers that are being turneddown. make.

Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Chairperson, I thank the In fact, Mr. Chairperson, I would suggest to minister for his comments. I can respect the fact you that there are many want-to-be visitors that that he has to go through a number of loopholes, are turned down that should not have been not loopholes- turned down. I have attempted to pursue this in diffe rent ways in the past, have yet, to date, got An Honourable Member: Hurdles. any sort of numbers of visas that are in fact being turned down of those who want to visit our Mr. Lamoureux: "Hurdles" is the word I am province. My question fo r the minister is: does looking fo r. the ministry keep track or have any idea of the number of individuals that come to our province * (1720) via a visiting visa? July 13, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4255

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Culture, can to impress upon the federal government that Heritage and Citizenship): The member has we are supportive of these visitors coming here, raised an important issue and one that I believe sometimes that message is not accepted in the he also raised last year in Concurrence or in the posts abroad, and so we are left with some Estimates process, and the answer, in a general difficulty. sense, is very much the same. The issuing of visitor visas is completely and totally the I would suggest to the member then that, in responsibility of the federal government. It is attempting to look at how to increase the number totally and completely the responsibility of his of visitors or the ease at which people may, in fe deral colleagues in Ottawa, with whom I fact, get these visitors' visas, he does need to would expect that he would have some influence work with his own federal colleagues. In terms through himself or through his leader, who was a of the exact numbers, I am not aware that we do fo rmer member of the cabinet of the fe deral keep in Manitoba a list, provincially, of the government. So the issuing of visitors' visas is, number of people who come on visitors' visas again, done generally at the post abroad where here and the return rate or problem rate. It the assessment is made of a number of issues, would certainly make sense to me that that and I am led to understand part of that issue is would be a reasonable kind of statistic to keep, whether or not the individual will be a bona fide because we certainly have access to others which visitor or whether there is some expectation that have given Manitoba an extremely good record on arrival they may decide to seek another in terms of support to family members on status. immigration, that there is an extremely low default rate of support. I believe it is less than 1 Manitoba, to start with, let me just say, is percent, extremely low, probably the lowest very, very supportive of immigration. If people across the country. So there are a lot of statistics coming as visitors would like to come for an in terms of immigration. It is very possible that opportunity to see our province, return then to those statistics are available. I do not have them their country of origin or a country where an today, but certainly we would be willing to get application can be made, a post where an them for the member. application can be made for immigration, Manitoba is very, very supportive of But just, Mr. Chairperson, while I am immigration. We also are very supportive and answering this in general, I would like to take continue to support our complement of refugees, another opportunity to address an issue to the which, as the member knows, as a result of the member of the Liberal Party, because as this recent difficulty, particularly fo r the people of provincial government has supported Kosovo, Manitoba has, in fact, accepted a much immigration, we also are very, very much larger number of refugees and is very, very against those policies of the fe deral government supportive of doing so. which limit immigration, which tend to deter immigration and which are barriers to Manitoba is also very supportive of the immigration. temporary visas fo r working which would assist in terms of the sewing machine industry, and it Any of the taxes, the head tax most has made application to the federal government specifically, tends to act as a deterrent, and the to reconsider where they have denied those fe deral government by policy has given us no temporary visas to the sewing machine operators indication that they are ever prepared to review that were applying. Beijing was the most recent that. I have met with the federal minister. I post where there has been a very large denial. have explained to the fe deral minister in person So Manitoba's position is that we continue to be Manitoba's opposition to this tax and have not supportive of visitors who wish to come here, met with any success whatsoever in having the who may, in fact, eventually wish to make this federal government reconsider this tax which their home through the usual process, but it is really acts as a bar for immigration in terms of completely and entirely the responsibility of the our province. In addition, the low income federal government to make that decision. cutoff, I have asked the federal government to Although Manitoba may do everything that we reconsider Manitoba's inclusion in the same 4256 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 13, 1999 group of cities of over 500,000 in which Toronto Mr. Lamoureux: As I indicated, I do have a and Vancouver appear, because they are very number of questions that I would like to be able much more expensive to live in. to put fo rward. You know, quite often, I fe el somewhat flattered, I must admit, in terms of So, Mr. Chairperson, our position as a how the government on a number of diffe rent government has been very, very supportive of issues fe els that if it is a federal responsibility, immigration, very supportive of taking our that I could pick up the telephone, and I must number of refugees; in fact, accepting more this admit on occasion I do that when I do feel that it year. We certainly are interested in the is appropriate. Otherwise, I could end up on the temporary visas for work and in visitors' visas, telephone every day, and that would then cause so that people can come to Manitoba and me to neglect my responsibilities inside this actually have a look at what this province is Legislature if I ended up being on the telephone about and perhaps then may wish to go back and every day fo r hours lobbying the fe deral make an application. But we are not in favour of government. the fe deral government's decision of deterrence in relation to the tax, particularly the head tax, Having said that, Mr. Chairperson, I can and the inclusion of Winnipeg in the same group assure the minister that I have had occasion to of cities of over 500,000 as Toronto and meet with the former Minister of Immigration Vancouver where the cost of living is much and staff of the current minister where I have greater. had the opportunity to express a personal concern, our provincial party concern, relating to But, ultimately, the acceptance of people a number of decisions being made in regard to a into Manitoba on a visitor's visa, on a temporary policy that the national government has in regard work visa, for immigration or as refugees is to immigration. But one of the things that I do absolutely and entirely the decision of the acknowledge is that my value is maybe - fe deral Liberal government, and I would ask the somewhat-! do not want to criticize myself, so member opposite to use the influence of himself let me reword it and say that I would look for the and his Leader, who is a fo rmer member, a minister to recognize that there is a role for the cabinet minister of that fe deral Liberal provincial government in terms of advocating government, to assist in asking the federal what is in Manitoba's best interest. governmentto reconsider the bars for Manitoba. For example, I know first-hand that there are Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Chairperson, one of the many, many visiting visas that are rejected. things-[ interjection] Well, it is easy fo r us to say, well, that is federal responsibility; it has nothing to do with the province. Well, that is not true. It has a lot to do The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): with the province. It contributes tremendously Order, please. I would remind the honourable to our economy as people visit. It contributes members in the Chamber that there is an immensely to the social fabric of our province. opportunity fo r all members to participate. I was about to recognize the honourable member fo r Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) when I had some When I say social fabric, let me give you a difficulty overhearing my own thoughts in the couple of the types of cases I am referring to. I Chamber here, so I would ask honourable have had in the last year a number of people who members that if they are going to carry on any want to come to Manitoba in order to go to discussion, that they do so outside the Chamber, weddings. I write probably more letters to so that we can carry on with the order of Immigration or the embassy in the Philippines business in the Chamber here today. than I do to any department within this government, and it is because even though it I recognize the honourable member for would be very easy fo r me to say, well, contact Inkster. Judy Wasylycia-Leis or Dr. Rey Pagtakhan, they are your member of Parliament, I believe that we * (1730) have a responsibility. July 13, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4257

It is in Manitoba's best interests to ensure as that it is only my responsibility, and I look to the much as possible that we are getting as many Minister of Culture and Heritage to at the very visiting visas approved as possible, and what is least acknowledge that her department also has a important from my perspective is that the responsibility in dealing with visiting visas. minister is at the very least aware of the visas being turned down. Last year, I raised the issue Would she not concur with that statement? with the minister, and that is why I was pleased when she made reference to it in these Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, let me start again with comments, pleased to the extent that she realizes repeating some of the comments that I made in the importance of this particular issue. Surely my last answer. she would recognize the importance of her department not only being aware of a ballpark First of all, Manitoba is probably one of the figure or being able to guesstimate the number most active, actively recruiting, provinces across of visas being turned down, but this is an issue this country in terms of immigration. One not only that I have a responsibility for lobbying strategy to encourage people to immigrate here my fe deral counterparts, but so does her is to see that they have visitors' visas to come department. and have a look, and that when they have a visitor's visa and they come and have a look they I get the impression, Mr. Chairperson, that if have an opportunity to see that there is perhaps pose the question in the sense of can the some reason that they would like to, in fact, minister table documentation, any form of come here. documentation that would clearly indicate that this government has an interest in fighting for We send out information basically around those visiting visas being approved or is trying the world about Manitoba and what we consider to get down to the nitty-gritty as to how many to be the Manitoba advantage. So I certainly are actually being rejected, that it, in fact, might want the record to show the very active role that embarrass the department because I get the this government and my department, as their impression that they have not been looking into working arm to do this, very actively works on that. If, in fact, I am right in my assessment, it this issue among others; provincial nominee for then becomes a question of opportunities lost, our economic development, immigration, economically, for the province, but, more supports of refugees, temporary working visas as importantly, I would suggest is for those who are in the sewing machine operators and visitors' here who are trying to get family members to visas. attend events. But the insurmountable hurdle is that it is I have written in the past some fairly hard the fe deral government alone who determines letters to the embassy, and I am sure-at least I the criterion, and it is the people of posts abroad would anticipate that I am not alone. It would be who make the decisions. So the concern of very easy for me to pass the buck on it. I will, Manitobans has to be registered to the federal and I give assurances to the minister that I will government and to the fe deral minister. Now I, continue to lobby Ottawa, the department of as minister, have done that on behalf of the Immigration, but my resources are more limited people of Manitoba. I have had the opportunity than your financial resources, yet I will take the to meet with my fe deral colleague, and I would responsibility that I have-because I am a Liberal say that my federal colleague does attempt to MLA and it is a Liberal administration-to try to understand the initiatives that we have wanted to assist our province. put forward in Manitoba.

But as the minister is fu lly aware, I lose However, the fe deral government has now some battles. I was not a big fan of the landing shown itself to necessarily be particularly open fe e. I have attempted to try to get modifications to a lot of change. So it is important not only for or changes to it to make it easier fo r the our government to make our representation in province. But I do not want this governmentto the area of visitors' visas but to ask other believe because I happen to be a Liberal MLA members, particularly of the Liberal Party, if 4258 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 13, 1999 they are willing to put themselves on the line to Manitoba's immigration policy, fo r Manitoba's take a position, which is probably not a tourism policy. we would require them to particularly popular positiOn with their understand the specific circumstances of colleagues in Ottawa, to in fact fight fo r the Manitoba, not only, as the member has people of Manitoba and not necessarily to toe a mentioned, fo r in some cases fam ily reunions, party line. That has been the difficulty, and that but also potentially they may be, in fact, people is what I am asking the member to put forward who might like to be part of our wave of and put on the line. immigration.

* (1740) There is no getting around the main feature here. The fe deral government has put fo rward If he really believes that the people of barriers. The fe deral Liberal government has put Manitoba can have this benefit, join with our fo rward barriers. If the member across the way government,put that position fo rward to Ottawa, representing the Liberal Party is prepared to put risk the wrath of your Leader who is a former his position on the line in opposition to his federal cabinet minister, a fe deral cabinet federal Liberal colleagues and stand up fo r minister in cabinet at the time that these policies Manitobans. that would be appreciated. were being developed, and he continues, it appears to me, to support everything that is done Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Chairperson, actually I by Ottawa. I have not heard him at any time believe in the past I have given detailed take a position on the head tax or a position on comment in terms of a number of the issues that the low-income cutoff where Manitoba is the minister brings fo rward. What I am included with Toronto and Vancouver as a city interested in doing is pursuing a line of over 500,000, nor have I heard him being willing questioning to find out in terms of whether or to risk and take a position on behalf of the not the department realizes the potential that it Liberal Party in the area of visitors' visas, of can serve in terms of enhancing visiting visas. temporary work visas, of provincial nominee of immigration or of refugees. So my answer to the Maybe the best way to do that is if I said to member is you really can have no doubt of our the minister today that, and this is purely government's support in the area of immigration. hypothetical, 5,000 visiting visas are rejected every year from the Philippines alone. Now, I I would just like also then to fo cus on the have absolutely no idea if that is even close, but visitors' visas, because I too am aware of the if I say 5,000 visiting visas, the minister is going importance of fam ily reunification, even fo r a to sit back in her seat and say, wow, is that a short time, that a visitor's visa provides. huge number or what? Imagine if those 5,000 Sometimes it is the opportunity for a family to people were allowed to come to the province, the reunite here in Canada, here in Manitoba, that many diffe rent contributions that they would perhaps has not been together fo r some time. I have been able to make. think all of us are aware of cases of fam ilies which fo r whatever reasons, as a result of On the other hand, if I said that there were conflict in their homeland or other economic five people that were turned down, the minister opportunities, live around the world and would say, well. maybe they were turned down therefore make applications to come to Canada fo r good reason. Maybe Ottawa is doing a good for a reunion. job. Well, I am not saying either. I am not saying 5,000 or five. What I am saying is that I I certainly believe that our government is in know that there is a lot. I have no idea in terms support of that, whether people originate from of the actual number. I have posed the question the same place or from countries around the not only to the fe deral government informally, I world but, as I have said, the insurmountable have posed the question to this minister in the barrier is that it is the fe deral Liberal past, and I pose it today. government who determines all of the criteria, who develops the risk assessment, and who The government should at the very least be makes the decision in the post abroad. So for aware of the situation. The reason why I say it July 13, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4259 should be aware is that if it was 5,000 people province is interested in attracting immigration, wanting to come to the province to visit in any and if part of that attraction of immigration is given year from the Philippines, from the through the issuance of visitors' visas so that Punjab, fr om the West Indies, or wherever, and people can come for family reunions, for the they are being turned down, well, that has a opportunity to view this as a potential place to significant impact in the province of Manitoba. immigrate, and go home and apply through the process, then if the member and the provincial Therefore, I would suggest to you that fo r no Liberal Party is willing to put that down-now, in other reason but than the numbers in itself would the process of speculation, I would say I cause the minister to hop on the next flight-Air probably will not see it, because it would really Canada has some pretty decent sales-get down be, I am sure, very difficultfo r them, particularly to Ottawa and say, well, look, and I will his Leader, who sat as a federal cabinet minister accompany. If the minister wants me, I would and passed and supported those bars to our be more than happy to accompany her down to provincial immigration, to actually put that on Ottawa on this particular issue. We could even paper. But if the member wishes to be a part of throw in a token New Democrat, if that would an initiative to assist in immigration, it would be make it fe el better. [interjection] very helpful to see that put in writing, the position of the provincial Liberal Party, so that Well, we will just be selective on which one, there is support for the position that this you know. Like, the member for Transcona (Mr. government in Manitoba has taken. I will, Reid) I do not have any problem with, or the optimistically, look fo rward to that. member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton), you know. We could talk about it and come up with one. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Acting Chairperson, But, anyway, the point is, Mr. Acting think the minister underestimates the value of Chairperson, that if you had an idea-l do not her department. Manitoba could have thousands believe the department does have an idea of the of additional immigrants come to our province number of visas being turned down. So, as every year if it was managed properly. opposed to asking the minister that question, I Manitoba, through family reunification, could want to move on to another issue in dealing with benefittrem endously if the government were to immigration, but I would suggest that the office take more of an interest in directly getting does look into the numbers that are out there, involved, being aware of some of the statistical because it can assist in facilitating some changes information. with Ottawa. When I had posed the question there, they could not give me the answer * (1750) immediately, but it would have been nice fo r me to have been able to say, well, these are the You know, if I place the call to the embassy, numbers at this particular embassy. So getting which I have done, and I pose questions, both in the information I think would be most valuable. writing and in person, and via telephone, it does not have the same impact as-1 am talking with Mrs. Vodrey: As I said, I will certainly look to the embassy; I am not talking with Ottawa-if the find out whether or not that information is government of Manitoba approaches the available to my department. We do have quite a embassy and says: Look, what is happening lot of information, so we will certainly find out. here? What we would like to be able to know is how many visa requests are you actually turning But, in the member's co-operative spirit down. I think there is a moral obligation. then, it would really be very helpful to me to have him write to me and clearly state his Then, if the minister came to me and said, position and the position of his Leader, the well, look, the embassy refuses to give us any of provincial Liberal Party. Put it on paper. Give that kind of information, well, then, I would be some additional support to a position that this more than happy to join with the minister in government has taken that the federal seeking the assistance from Ottawa. If we want government needs to review the bars to to put forward a presentation to Ottawa in immigration to this province, because this feeling that we are not getting fairly treated 4260 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 13, 1999

through the embassy-because a lot of this is understanding of what is actually happening. It - through the embassy. does not have to be a confrontation. I am not talking right now about the landing fe e or the The way in which maybe I can highlight that head tax, whatever one wants to call it. That is a particular problem is that it is the student visas. totally diffe rent issue which I have spoken to in You know, Manitoba spent about a hundred the past, I will speak to no doubt in the future. I thousand dollars, I believe a hundred thousand can assure the member of that. My New dollars, through Red River, had a college set up Democratic fr iends would never allow me to get in China, with the idea of trying to get some of away without commenting on that issue at the those students there to come to Manitoba. I doors. understand there was something like 13 or 14 students who were hoping to be able to come. You know, I have opposed that particular From what I understand, they are having a tax in the past and I will continue to oppose it to problem right now. Now I am doing what I can demonstrate that the courage is there to state in to rectify it. I do not know if the minister has terms of what it is that I fe el. But by making any idea about this issue. Other provinces that statement, hopefully, the minister now does appear to be able to be getting their students. not avoid the real issue that is before us, and that Now, is it Ottawa? I do not necessarily believe issue is the need to heighten the sense of that it is Ottawa. If it is Ottawa, well, then I am awareness within her department and the role prepared to advocate on behalf, and we have that department can have in fa cilitating more initiated some discussions because we fo und out visitors coming to the province of Manitoba, and about it just the other day. ultimately I would argue, in a positive way, fac ilitate more immigration. So a lot of it has to do with the government just taking an interest in getting some of the A great example of that immigration was information. You cannot make the assumption when the department-! had taken a tour of a - that Ottawa knows exactly what is happening in number of garment factories and raised the issue every embassy if no one is raising the issue. I do with David Walker, members of your not know if Bill Blaikie or the Tory M.P. from government. We then sat down and before you Brandon has raised the issue in Ottawa. If I was knew it, we had a committee that was to speculate, I would say that they likely have established that had two levels of government not. So when you are critical of me in terms of and members from within that industry and we my lobbying, maybe what I should be doing is had immigrants coming to fill some of those asking you to see if your Tory counterparts in badly needed jobs. There was a sense of co­ Ottawa, or for some of your members, Reform operation, and I think in certain areas that we counterparts in Ottawa, been raising this issue. need to expand that sense of co-operation. Have they been attempting to address it? What are you doing to ensure that they raise the issue There are many other ways in which we can in Question Period? You know, a lot of that is be critical of the government and condemn the informal lobbying that takes place. Has the government. We all know that this government minister, in fact, lobbied her own political party is incompetent in many different ways. That is to raise the issue more inside the Chamber? the reason why I voted against the budget, at Well, I think that those are all legitimate ways in least in part, Mr. Chairperson. which we can assist. But, having said that-that is somewhat Mr. Chairperson, I digress somewhat. The provoking debate, and I do not necessarily want purpose of posing the questions is to heighten to provoke debate-! just want to get the minister the sense of awareness of the department to a to acknowledge that there is a role fo r the couple of critical issues which I believe the department to be more aware of what is department needs to raise in a more fo rmal way happening in some of those embassies because with our counterparts in Ottawa. In an there will be tremendous benefit for the province informative, whether it is presentation, whatever by that heightened sense of awareness, just it is that you want to call it, let us get a better strictly the awareness. If she could address that July 13, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4261

awareness issue first, and then if she wants to So these positions are clearly on the record. take some shots at the federal government, she My department also works with the posts abroad can, by all means, do that. Lord knows I have to not only assist but to make very clear attempted to be critical of this government in the Manitoba's active position in wanting to past, too, so fair is fair. encourage immigration to our province. We work with the posts abroad. We were very Mrs. Vodrey: Well, again, I am very interested concerned with some of the decisions in the in the member for Inkster declaring his posts abroad in terms of the issuance of opposition to the right-of-landing fe e, his temporary visas in terms of work. We have very personal opposition. What I am very interested much supported that. in seeing is a Liberal Party platform position which opposes the right-of-landing fee, which The member references some of the labour takes a position against their federal Liberal shortages which are a result of our booming counterparts and actually puts fo rward a position economy. Manitoba has clearly a booming on behalf of this province, the needs of this economy, and it is very useful for us to have province, that they oppose the barriers of programs such as the provincial nominee. My taxation, the right-of-landing fee being one. I colleague, now the Minister of Finance (Mr. would very much be interested in hearing the Gilleshammer), signed the first provincial member for Inkster's position on this, that the nominee program in Canada in his previous Liberal Party, his Leader, a former Liberal portfolio. cabinet minister of the fe deral government, actually comes forward and puts that on paper and Jets the people of Manitoba know where Mr. Chairperson, all of these are ways to they stand, because to this point I have not seen assist us in terms of increasing our immigration, this. the provincial nominee, our efforts to recruit in posts abroad- This government has clearly taken that positiOn. This government has taken a clear and The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): firm position against the barriers to immigration Order, please. The hour being 6 p.m., committee in this province, the right-of-landing fee, rise. Call in the Speaker. taxation, the inclusion of Winnipeg in the group of cities over 500,000 which includes us within a group of cities for the low-income numbers, IN SESSION includes us with cities such as Toronto and Vancouver. All of those points have been raised Madam Speaker: The hour being 6 p.m., this in an active way by me as minister to the fe deral House is adjourned and stands adjourned until minister and in letters to the fe deral minister. I :30 p.m. tomorrow (Wednesday). LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Tuesday, July 13, 1999

CONTENTS

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS Manitoba Capital Fund Sale; Tweed 4219 Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees Teachers Pension Plan McGiffo rd; McCrae 4220 Committee of Supply Laurendeau 4211 Members' Statements

Tabling of Reports Winnipeg International Airport McAlpine 4220 1997-1998 Annual Report, Vital Statistics Agency 4211 Sayisi Dene Agreements Robinson 4221 1997-1 998 Annual Report, Consumer and Corporate Affairs 4211 Oakbank-Springfield Personal Care Home 1997-1 998 Annual Report, Findlay 4221 Companies Office 4211 Pan Am Games 1997-1 998 Annual Report, Cerilli 4222 Property Registry Agency 4211 Volunteerism 1997-1 998 Annual Report, Manitoba Lamoureux 4222 Gaming Control Commission 4211 ORDERS OF THE DAY Oral Questions Royal Assent Virology Lab Doer; Mcintosh 4211 Bill 28-The Legislative Assembly Amendment Act (2) 4223 Health Care System Chomiak; Stefanson 4213 Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees Beverage Rooms Ashton; Filmon 42 15 Standing Committee on Industrial Relations (Third Report) Manitoba Liquor Control Commission Helwer 4223 Ashton; Vodrey 42 15 Standing Committee on Education System Municipal Affairs (Third Report) Lamoureux; McCrae 42 16 Roc an 4224 Community Colleges Report Stage Mihychuk; McCrae 42 17 Pan Am Games Bill 25-The Municipal Assessment Robinson; Filmon 42 18 Amendment Act 4225 Bill 29-The Victims' Rights Amendment and Consequential Amendment Act 4225 Amendments Act Lamoureux 4226 Bill 34-The Court of Queen's Bench Amendment and Consequential Bill 47-The Municipal Assessment Amendments Act 4225 Amendment Act (2) Bill 47-The Municipal Assessment Ashton 4227 Amendment Act (2) 4225 Doer 4228

Third Readings Committee of Supply Bill 25-The Municipal Assessment Amendment Act Concurrence Motion Enns 4225 Lamoureux 4232 Bill 29-The Victims' Rights McCrae 4236 Amendment Act Santos 4249 Lamoureux 4226 McCrae 4253 Bi11 34-The Court of Queen's Bench Vodrey 4255