Wednesday Volume 502 9 December 2009 No. 13

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 9 December 2009

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2009 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ Enquiries to the Office of Public Sector Information, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 337 9 DECEMBER 2009 338

those that rely on the bigger charities to give them House of Commons money—are often struggling the most. For example, I met representatives of SPEAK on Monday, and they Wednesday 9 December 2009 are struggling to get money from others charities. What assistance can these programmes provide to help those charities that fund other charities, so that we can make The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock sure that the money flows through the system and that secondary charities are not disenfranchised from these PRAYERS programmes? Angela E. Smith: We have sought to put in place a [MR.SPEAKER in the Chair] range of programmes to help charities and voluntary organisations in a variety of ways. In terms of those organisations to which my hon. Friend refers, may I direct him to the grassroots grants programme, as the Oral Answers to Questions often quite small donations given under that programme to bodies delivering services at the grass-roots level can be extremely valuable? Those grants range from £500 to CABINET OFFICE £5,000 and are issued through the Community Development Foundation. I will also ensure that my hon. Friend has information on all the grants and packages of help that The Minister for the Cabinet Office was asked— are available to help charities of different sizes.

Third Sector Recession Action Plan Jenny Willott (Cardiff, Central) (LD): The hardship fund, for charities with a turnover above £200,000, is a 1. Anne Milton (Guildford) (Con): What recent key part of the action plan, but the recent decision of assessment she has made of the effectiveness of the the Office of the Third Sector to divert into it £750,000 third sector recession action plan. [304978] from the campaigning research programme, which is aimed at smaller charities, has caused outcry across the The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Angela E. sector. Does the Minister share my concern that the Smith): The Government recognise the extraordinary lack of consultation, or even warning, ahead of that role the sector plays in helping vulnerable people through decision has not only damaged the charities directly the recession. That is why we have given unprecedented affected, but has shaken the confidence of the sector as help and support to the sector, both through existing a whole in the Government’s commitment to the compact programmes and through the £42.5 million “Real help and their support for smaller organisations? now” programme, the community action plans and the £16.7 million hardship fund. That money is getting out Angela E. Smith: Yes, I certainly understand the there right now: the programmes have already provided concerns about the transfer of the money. It is nothing £32 million-worth of assistance to a total of 1,546 to do with the size of the organisations; rather, it is to organisations. Evaluations of all our major recession do with the purpose of the fund. It was a difficult programmes are already under way, and reports will be decision to make, particularly because it is not compact- produced from the middle of next year. compliant, which I regret and apologise for. We should consider the purpose of the fund, however. When I was Anne Milton: I wonder whether the Minister is aware travelling around the country talking to different that charities helping those with mental health problems, organisations, what came up time and again was that such as Oakleaf Enterprise and the YMCA in my organisations delivering services on the ground at grass-roots Guildford constituency, are facing a massive downturn level were being hit by the recession and needed help. in income. Instead of the “laser-targeted” package of We could have spent this £750,000 either on campaigning help the Government’s press release described in February, research or on helping those organisations. While it was we have the usual lumbering, bureaucratic, red-tape a difficult choice, the basic decision was sound. However, nightmare so commonly seen from this Government. I apologise to those who have been affected, and for this isolated breach of the compact. Angela E. Smith: I am surprised at the hon. Lady’s comments, and if she wants to give me examples, I will Tom Levitt (High Peak) (Lab): I congratulate my be happy to look at them, because we have tried very hon. Friend on the effectiveness with which the hardship hard to minimise the amount of red tape. Indeed, on fund has been got out to organisations throughout the the hardship fund in particular, we have been praised country, but does she think that the smallest organisations for the swiftness of our assessment of applications. are sufficiently aware of, and therefore taking advantage Obviously, we want to ensure that charities and of, the available help? organisations who need help can get it quickly, and it is impressive that £32 million has already gone out to help Angela E. Smith: I am in some ways, as many them. organisations have had the help and have been able to make use of it. I think that more can be done, however, Mr. Andy Reed (Loughborough) (Lab/Co-op): For a and I appeal to all Members to make organisations in number of charities that I work with, there is a bit of a their constituencies aware of the grants, support and mixed picture. Some of the larger ones have seen their loans that are available. We want that money to get out giving going up, but those that I call secondary charities— to third sector organisations because they are often the 339 Oral Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Oral Answers 340 glue in communities, providing support on the ground The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Angela E. to the people who most need it. We must do as much as Smith): The social exclusion task force co-ordinates and we can to get that money out to them and to help and monitors progress on tackling social exclusion across support them. May I direct my hon. Friend to the England. I am aware that in Yorkshire and the Humber Government-funded National Council for Voluntary a wide range of measures are in place to support more Organisations website, “Funding central”, which has all vulnerable adults into homes and jobs. I am also very the information on grants and support? That is helpful pleased that Barnsley, Bradford and Rotherham are all to all organisations. sites for the “Inspiring Communities” programme, which will help to raise the aspirations of young people in Mr. Francis Maude (Horsham) (Con): When the deprived areas. May I also tell my hon. Friend that voluntary and charitable sector is facing horrendous when I visited the York Council for Voluntary Service, I pressure as a result of the Government’s recession, how was very impressed by its commitment to promoting helpful is it for Lord Mandelson to be railroading social inclusion? through the removal of the sector’s long-standing exemption on public performance rights? Does the Minister accept Hugh Bayley: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend that adding at least £20 million in extra cost to voluntary for visiting the CVS. Since York Credit Union opened and charitable organisations just now is the last thing three years ago, it has done an excellent job in helping that they need, or have the Government just stopped people to get out of debt, but we still face a serious listening? problem with door-to-door loan sharks. I am holding a credit agreement offered to one of my constituents, Angela E. Smith: It is not a case of the Government where the annual percentage rate of interest was not listening, and I should also correct the right hon. 2,639,385.9 per cent. I am not making that figure up; it Gentleman because it is not the Government’s recession; is written here in black and white. Will she speak to her as he may be aware, this has been an international colleagues in the Treasury and press for legislation to recession, affecting countries across the world. I share put to an end this kind of usury? concerns about the impact that charges from PPL and PRS could have on charitable and voluntary organisations; Hon. Members: Hear, Hear. indeed, I met them to express those concerns on behalf of the sector. They are now working together to consider Angela E. Smith: As we can hear, the whole House is a plan to minimise that impact, and I urge all third horrified by such an extortionate interest rate. We all sector organisations to contact PPL and PRS to ensure share concerns about this, because it is often those on that it is minimised. The exemption was long-standing, the lowest incomes who end up paying the highest and I believe that Britain is one of the last countries in prices because of the high cost of borrowing. I can tell Europe to lose it. I share the concern about the impact my hon. Friend that the Office of Fair Trading is of this, and we must work with the entire third sector—the examining the issue and it issued an interim report charities and the voluntary organisations—to do what yesterday. A final report will be available in the spring we can to minimise it. and the Government will consider its recommendations. As he has done, may I commend the work of credit unions, which provide a way of helping those who are Mr. Maude: Part of the Government’s much-vaunted financially excluded? recession action plan was an £8 million volunteer brokerage scheme, which was intended to create 40,000 volunteering Sir Patrick Cormack (South Staffordshire) (Con): opportunities. Has not that much-criticised scheme turned Although I endorse what the hon. Member for City of out to be a flop, with only 2,500 opportunities actually York (Hugh Bayley) has just said, may I ask the Minister being created? Given that leaders in the sector have to acquire a copy of “The Complete Plain Words” by criticised the scheme as Sir Ernest Gowers, so that she can start talking in “a numbers game…not suited to the work of many organisations”, English and get rid of terms such as “social inclusion”, has the Minister yet got the message that this sort of “social exclusion” and “third sector”, and all this headline-catching initiative with rigid top-down targets gobbledegook, which separates the very people we are is the problem, not the solution? trying to help from this place?

Angela E. Smith: It is probably too early to make Angela E. Smith: That is the first time I have ever such an assessment as to success or failure. An increasing been accused of talking gobbledegook; I think that number of people are going into placements; this process people understand terms such as “socially included” was slow to start and we are seeing some improvement and “socially excluded”, and find them helpful. I have now. It is important to have targets, because they create some sympathy with what the hon. Gentleman says an ambition to ensure that we get as many people into about the term “third sector” and if he could come up placements as possible. For example, in August, 930 people with a better one, that would be helpful. In some ways, I on jobseeker’s allowance took up placements on this regard the “third sector”—the wider charities, voluntary scheme—that is important and it is success. organisations and social enterprise—as pretty much the first sector. Social Inclusion People with Disabilities

2. Hugh Bayley (City of York) (Lab): What recent 3. Mr. Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) assessment she has made of the effectiveness of her (Lab): What recent assessment she has made of levels Department’s actions to promote social inclusion in of access to voluntary activities for people with Yorkshire. [304979] disabilities; and if she will make a statement. [304980] 341 Oral Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Oral Answers 342

The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Ms Dawn Ms Butler: The hon. Gentleman raises a valid point. Butler): The latest volunteering figures from the Indeed, through programmes such as v and YouthNet, Government’s citizenship survey show that in England the Office of the Third Sector is ensuring that young 32 per cent. of disabled people volunteered at least once people are not only working with and for, but are in 2008-09. In order to ensure that more disabled people engaged with, people with disabilities—both those with are able to access volunteering programmes, the Office learning disabilities and those with other disabilities—to of the Third Sector is piloting a £2 million volunteering ensure that they can play a full and active part in fund in England, which will pay for adjustments and society. support for disabled volunteers. The fund opened for applications on 16 November. Social Exclusion 4. Mr. Graham Allen (Nottingham, North) (Lab): Mr. Tom Clarke: On the subject of diversity, may I be What recent discussions she has had with the Secretary the first to congratulate my hon. Friend on being the of State for Children, Schools and Families on the first black woman ever to have spoken from the Dispatch establishment of a national assessment centre for early Box? My I encourage her and her colleagues to work intervention policies to reduce social exclusion; and if with excellent organisations such as Mencap and People she will make a statement. [304981] First to ensure that people with learning disabilities are given the opportunity to play a full part in voluntary The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Angela E. activity, which is both in their interests and the greater Smith): First, I want to pay tribute to my hon. Friend interest of society? for his work on, and commitment to, this issue. I am aware that a number of places, including Nottingham, Ms Butler: I thank my right hon. Friend for his warm have developed early intervention policies to tackle words and kind remarks. It is indeed a pleasure to be social problems. It is important that the impact of standing here at the Dispatch Box. I, too, would like to individual policies is assessed. Officials from the Cabinet congratulate my right hon. Friend on receiving a disability Office and the DCSF have discussed the best way of champion award yesterday. The Cabinet Office is looking addressing this, including the role of a centre for excellence at ensuring that disabled people—those with learning in outcomes. difficulties—are totally included in the packages that we are providing, such as the £17.5 million Improving Mr. Allen: There are now lots of green shoots of early Reach programme. There have been successful bids for intervention in the UK—not just in Nottingham but in people with learning difficulties, such as those from Manchester, Glasgow, London and south Wales. I hope Mind associations. These groups receive the award funding that my right hon. Friend will ensure that all those ideas through Office of the Third Sector programmes, including are pulled together so that lots of local authorities that v, grassroots grants, Futurebuilders and targeted support wish to embark on an early intervention programme funds. have a strong, central evidence base from which to draw, rather than replicating individual projects. I hope that she will put her weight behind a national policy assessment Sir Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield) (Con): May I centre. obviously endorse the remarks of the right hon. Member for Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill (Mr. Clarke) Angela E. Smith: Yes. I know that my hon. Friend has about the new Minister and wish her well, albeit that it raised this issue with the Prime Minister, too. There is will perhaps be for a relatively short time? Will the no doubt that as more authorities get involved with Minister accept that for disabled people—whether they early intervention it is very important that they can are mentally or physically disabled—to be able to participate share best practice and understand what works best to in voluntary activities is critical to their quality of life. get value for money. Departments will be discussing Is she concerned that at the present time, with the how best to achieve this, including the role that can be recession that we are experiencing, this group of people played by such a centre of excellence in outcomes. is suffering—they are unable to indulge in all the worthwhile activities that would make their lives profitable and Information Commissioner well? 5. Mr. Gordon Prentice (Pendle) (Lab): What steps Ms Butler: I again thank the hon. Gentleman for his she is taking to ensure that material held by her remarks. The Office of the Third Sector is building a Department which is requested by the Information platform to ensure that people with disabilities participate Commissioner is provided promptly to the fully and are considered to be the same as able-bodied Commissioner. [304982] people. The scheme that has been put in place, although it is a pilot, will be reviewed in 2011. If it is successful, it The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Angela E. will be rolled out nationally. Smith): The Cabinet Office aims to respond to requests from the Information Commissioner for material required for an investigation in a timely fashion. Mr. Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): Does the Minister agree that an important aspect of Mr. Prentice: I am not really happy with that answer. such work would be efforts to promote among younger I want to know who is responsible for the grotesque people the concept of people with disabilities being delays in responding to my freedom of information more able to get involved in a range of voluntary request regarding Lord Ashcroft. Is it the Cabinet Office activities, thereby helping the wider community, particularly that is dragging its feet, or is it the Information across the demographics? Commissioner who is being dilatory and totally useless? 343 Oral Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Oral Answers 344

Angela E. Smith: I might not be able to answer that without any consultation. Of course, that has generated question in the way that my hon. Friend has invited me real anger in the sector, because with that one decision, to, but I can tell him that the Information Commissioner the Department that is meant to champion the sector has not issued an information notice regarding any has made a mockery of the compact and has sent out a request that he has made to the Cabinet Office. signal that it is okay for public grant makers to treat charities in that shabby way. I welcome her apology Justine Greening (Putney) (Con): What follow-up today, but is she really aware of the damage that she has does the Minister do with other Departments? I have done, and what will she do to repair it? just waited a year and a half to get an answer to an information request from the Department for Transport, Angela E. Smith: I suspect that the hon. Gentleman and even now it has not been answered fully. Does she wrote his question before he heard the hon. Member for think that is too long to wait, or is that the sort of time Cardiff, Central (Jenny Willott) raise this issue. I regret line that I should expect? any damage that has been done, because it is important that people understand my commitment to the compact Angela E. Smith: Freedom of information matters and to voluntary organisations. I refer him to my earlier are dealt with by the Ministry of Justice, so I will draw comments. At this time of recession, and given the the hon. Lady’s concerns to the attention of ministerial comments that have been made to me by organisations colleagues at MOJ and ask them to take note of what up and down the country, the priority had to be given to she says. organisations that deliver services to communities on the front line. Having said that, I deeply regret the Local Organisations (Funding) concerns that people have raised, and I assure him that my commitment to the compact is strong. 6. Phil Wilson (Sedgefield) (Lab): How many local Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): Often, when funding organisations have received grassroots grants from her organisations are looking to provide grants to voluntary Department in the last 12 months. [304983] community organisations, they pay too much attention to the involvement of statutory bodies when they look The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Angela E. at those organisations’ financial viability. May I urge Smith): The £130 million grassroots grants programme my right hon. Friend, when she is handing out grassroots provides much-needed support to small voluntary groups grants, to ensure that the money is going to genuine that are doing vital work in our communities across grass-roots organisations in local communities? England. In the first 14 months, there have been more than 13,000 grant awards to small charities and voluntary Angela E. Smith: The grassroots grants programme is organisations totalling more than £33 million. I am administered in constituencies on behalf of Government delighted that in County Durham alone grassroots grants by the Community Development Foundation. I think has invested more than £487,000 in small grants to local that I can give my hon. Friend the reassurance he seeks voluntary groups. [Interruption.] on this matter, but I will send him a list of the organisations in his constituency that have received such grants so Mr. Speaker: Order. As usual, there are far too many that he can make an assessment himself and talk to me private conversations taking place on both sides of the further if he wishes to do so. Chamber. That is frankly discourteous and it conveys a very bad impression to those who are listening to our Government Statistics proceedings. 7. Mr. Henry Bellingham (North-West Norfolk) (Con): Phil Wilson: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. When she next expects to meet the national statistician Some £51,000-worth of grassroots grants have gone to discuss policy on publication of statistics by to community groups in my constituency such as the Government Departments. [304984] Ferryhill 2000 committee, Fishburn kurling club and The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Angela E. Thornley Homing club. Does my right hon. Friend Smith): I meet the national statistician regularly once agree that that shows the Government’s commitment to every three months, but I have no plans to discuss with local people and communities, and makes an important her the policy on the publication of statistics by Government contribution to the front line? Departments. Departments are expected to follow the code of practice for official statistics that is maintained Angela E. Smith: Yes, I do. There are often small by the independent UK Statistics Authority. community groups in communities doing first-class, important work. A small amount of money can make a Mr. Bellingham: I thank the Minister for that reply. huge difference to their impact on the local community, The ONS has just published the results of the recent and that is why the Government have invested so much census rehearsal, with responses coming in at just 35 per money in the grassroots grants programme, which gives cent., compared with 54 per cent. in 2001. Is not that a grants ranging from £250 to £5,000 to small local major warning sign that the new census is far too long, groups. As some of us who speak to those groups know, too intrusive and too much hassle to fill in? Surely the that makes a real difference in those communities. excessive cost of £450 million is totally unacceptable, given the country’s parlous finances. Mr. Nick Hurd (Ruislip-Northwood) (Con): In April, the Department launched a programme of grants for Angela E. Smith: I refute the hon. Gentleman’s comments small campaigning charities. In October, it sent out on a number of grounds. First, the census pilots are grant letters offering the funding. In November, the voluntary, and more resources have been invested to Minister withdrew the money that had been promised ensure that we get accurate and clear responses from 345 Oral Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Oral Answers 346 people up and down the country in the 2011 census, Floods because we want the best information possible. Secondly, I also think that the cost of the census, which works out 9. Miss Anne McIntosh (Vale of York) (Con): What to 87p per person per year, is a reasonable amount to assessment she has made of the effectiveness of the pay for the benefit that the census brings to the country. operation of the provisions of the Civil Contingencies Act 2004 in relation to the recent floods in Cumbria. David Taylor (North-West Leicestershire) (Lab/Co-op): [304989] Is it not the case that there needs to be public acceptability of the level of detail in the 2011 census? Has my hon. The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Ms Dawn Friend had discussions with Jil Matheson about the Butler): I know that the hon. Lady recently visited the level of disaggregated data that will be published, the affected area to see for herself the impact of the flooding timetable that will be associated with that, and whether and to meet emergency responders. All sides of the full census form information will be published rather House have paid tribute to PC Bill Barker, who lost his earlier than the present limit of 100 years? life. Despite the unprecedented nature of the rainfall that Angela E. Smith: I have obviously had discussions occurred, the prompt and effective response to the with the ONS about ensuring public confidence in the flooding in Cumbria was exemplary, due to meticulous census, although I have not had particular discussions and effective preparation by local and national responders about how long information will remain confidential. I working through the framework set out in the Civil think that 100 years is appropriate, but if my hon. Contingencies Act 2004. As part of the ongoing Civil Friend wants to write to me about the matter, I will look Contingencies Act enhancement programme, we will at it again. ensure that any lessons that can be learned from events such as this are used to enhance our guidance even 2011 Census further, but tribute must be paid to those respondents who worked together during this time. 8. Mr. Stephen Crabb (Preseli Pembrokeshire) (Con): What her most recent estimate is of the cost of the 2011 Miss McIntosh: Will the Minister join me in census. [304987] congratulating those wardens on the ground in Cumbria who were there knocking on doors and evacuating The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Angela E. people, thanks to the warning? Obviously, we regret the Smith): The cost of the 2011 census in England and loss of PC Barker. The Civil Contingencies Act 2004 Wales is estimated at £482 million, as stated in the seems to be working, but we need more wardens of the White Paper on the census published in December type that we saw in Cumbria. 2008. As I just mentioned, that equates to 87p per person per year. Ms Butler: The hon. Lady makes the valid point that we must congratulate those people and wardens on the Mr. Crabb: Is not the Government’s failure over the ground, and I completely endorse her sentiments. The last 10 years to monitor correctly the number of people Civil Contingencies Act 2004 has been working, and it coming into the country one reason why we are facing provides a framework that has now been well established. such an expensive census in 2011? We will continue to look at any lessons that can be learned from that and ensure that it is enhanced further. Angela E. Smith: I think that the hon. Gentleman struggled to find a point to make on this matter. What Mr. Lindsay Hoyle (Chorley) (Lab): Would the Minister he suggests is not the case at all: in fact, a comparison of like to congratulate the emergency services and the the cost of the census in this country with the cost of armed forces on the provision of the temporary bridge, that conducted in other countries around the world which has made a real difference to the people of shows that our census is much more reasonable. It costs Workington? about a third of the census in the US, and is significantly Ms Butler: The emergency services and the armed less than that conducted in New Zealand, Canada, forces worked exceptionally well and speedily in ensuring Australia, Ireland and Scotland. The cost cannot be that the new bridge was built in time and to the benefit called excessive, so his point is completely unfounded. of all concerned, so I completely endorse my hon. Friend’s sentiments. Paul Rowen (Rochdale) (LD): Given the costs of the census, does the Minister think that including questions on a person’s immigration status is a useful use of public funds, when that information can be collected PRIME MINISTER more accurately by other means? The Prime Minister was asked— Angela E. Smith: On the issue of costs, the benefits to the Treasury from the information that it gets from the Engagements census amounts to the equivalent of around £700 million. That far exceeds the costs of the census, but the point Q1. [304963] Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) that the hon. Gentleman makes is also not valid because (Con): If he will list his official engagements for the ONS chooses the questions independently. It looks Wednesday 9 December. at why the questions are needed, and the answers to them are used to ensure that the billions of pounds of The Prime Minister (Mr. Gordon Brown): Before I list public funds are disbursed on the basis of accurate my engagements, it is with deep sorrow that we remember, information. from 1st Battalion the Royal Anglian Regiment, Lance 347 Oral Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Oral Answers 348

Corporal Adam Drane, who died in Afghanistan on The Government have provided additional advice to the Monday. My thoughts and, I know, those of the whole police, and funding to the Association of Chief Police House will be with his family and friends. Every life lost Officers to help to train officers in dangerous dog during this year and during previous years is a personal legislation. This was an event that should not recur, and tragedy, and we mourn every single loss. We mourn we will do everything in our power to make sure that it heroes whose acts of bravery recognise that a more does not happen. stable Afghanistan means a safer Britain, and the scale of their sacrifice does not diminish but strengthens our Mr. David Cameron (Witney) (Con): May I join the resolve. Prime Minister in paying tribute to Lance Corporal This morning, I had meetings with ministerial colleagues Adam Drane, who was killed in Afghanistan on Monday? and others. In addition to my duties in the House, I The 100th military casualty this year is a very sad shall have further such meetings later today. milestone. We should honour his memory; we should help his family. Robert Neill: I am sure that the whole House would As the Prime Minister and I have both seen, when endorse the Prime Minister’s tribute to the lance corporal, one speaks to our troops in Afghanistan, it is not and endorse his sentiments as well. sympathy and pity that they are after, but support, not Last week the Prime Minister told the House that just for what they are doing, but for the mission in Spain was in the G20 and that it had been in recession which they are engaged. In my view, they are every bit for longer than this country—neither of which, upon the equal of those men who stormed the beaches of checking, turns out to be correct. Do we conclude from Normandy or who fought their way across Africa in the that that the pain in Spain is mainly in his brain? second world war, and we should be proud of what they are doing. The Prime Minister: I am very glad that we are The new counter-insurgency strategy and the extra starting this week’s Question Time exactly as we ended troops announced by America last week show that we last week’s Question Time—[Interruption]—by talking have the last best chance to get this issue right. Does the about the economy. [Interruption.] Prime Minister agree that we simply cannot waste any time in getting every element of the strategy in place, Mr. Speaker: Order. We want to hear the Prime including troops, helicopters, equipment, development Minister’s reply, and certainly people listening elsewhere aid, civilian co-ordination and, of course, the pressure wish to hear it. We will have no further interruptions. on President Karzai to cut corruption?

The Prime Minister: There are some people who get The Prime Minister: I am very pleased that the right into the White House on false pretences, get their hon. Gentleman was able to go to Afghanistan, and I photograph taken and do not have a formal invitation, also know that many Members have visited our troops but the Prime Minister of Spain was invited to the in Afghanistan. I pay tribute to them for visiting our G20 by the President of America, to be part of the G20. troops, but I pay greater tribute to our troops for the I have to tell the hon. Gentleman that I invited the great work that they do. Prime Minister of Spain, Mr. Zapatero, to the G20 The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that we meeting that took place in London. Mr. Zapatero was must move quickly. Our additional troops will be going at the G20 meeting that took place in Pittsburgh. In to Afghanistan in the next few days. We have called a other words, Spain was part of the G20. [Interruption.] conference for 28 January in London, to bring together I know that the Opposition are going to talk down all the powers that are involved in Afghanistan—the Britain, but it is bit much them talking down Spain. 43-nation coalition. That will discuss—and, I hope, agree on—civil co-ordination. President Karzai has agreed Ms Angela C. Smith (Sheffield, Hillsborough) (Lab): to come, and he will have to report on the reforms that The fatal attack last week on four-year-old John-Paul he promised to make in his Administration as he started Massey from Merseyside again raises concerns about his second period of duty. At the same time, we are the effectiveness of legislation relating to dangerous making available all the equipment that is necessary— dogs. Will my right hon. Friend agree to meet, with me, helicopters and vehicles—to our armed forces. a small delegation of those who are concerned about I can just add one thing—that 80 per cent. of the the issue to discuss what can be done? deaths have been the result of explosive devices. We have now brought in far more surveillance equipment; The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely we have brought in extra engineers; we have brought in right. This was a terrible death, and I am very sorry to extra drones to survey the area; we have brought in learn about what happened to the little boy in Liverpool, more intelligence officers; and we are backing up our John-Paul Massey.She knows that the police are continuing troops with the best equipment possible. We will do to investigate the circumstances of the death. They have everything we can to avoid the loss of life as a result of also referred their handling of an original report from this guerrilla warfare. February 2009 to the Independent Police Complaints Commission. It would obviously be inappropriate to Mr. Cameron: US forces are now pouring into Helmand comment further on that instance, but the issue of the province, and that is welcome. But is not one of the status of dangerous dogs was raised at the antisocial current problems that British forces are still spread too behaviour working party a few days ago. We are working thinly in the very tough parts of Helmand for which we with the Home Office to ensure that those who are on are responsible? Following the increase in US forces in the front line make full use of the powers available to Helmand, is there not a danger that there will be a them to tackle the problem of dogs affecting communities. contrast between the UK forces, who are still spread too 349 Oral Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Oral Answers 350 thinly, and US forces, who will not be? Does the Prime Let me turn to a completely different subject. Tomorrow Minister accept that this needs to change, and change the House of Commons will be publishing the details of very urgently? Members’ second home allowances for the financial year 2008-09. That is a vital part of the process of The Prime Minister: If the right hon. Gentleman had rebuilding trust in this place, which everyone wants to heard what I said last week, he would know that I said happen. As of yesterday, the plans were to issue details that we were going to thicken the presence of our forces of expenses, but without publishing the total expenses in a number of key areas. Of course operational decisions claimed by each MP. Does the Prime Minister agree are a matter for commanders on the ground, but I think that that would not be transparent and would infuriate it is recognised that two things have got to happen: one the public who put us here, so will he take all the is that we thicken our presence; the second thing, however, necessary steps to make sure that the current totals are which I emphasise as part of our long-term strategy, is published in full? the fact that we are also there to train the Afghan forces so that they can take over. So 5,000 Afghan troops will The Prime Minister: This is a matter for the Members come to be trained in Helmand itself; 10,000 in total Estimate Committee to make a judgment on. The shadow will be trained in Helmand over the course of the next Leader of the House is a member of the Members year, and we will then want to pass security control, Estimate Committee, as is the Leader of the House. We district by district, to the Afghan people. We not only want the maximum transparency possible. I believe have a reason for being there—the threat of terrorism there is nothing that we have to hide, and we have got to on the streets of our country—we also have a plan to get all the information out. Anything that maximises give the Afghans control over their country, so that at transparency is what I support, but I would I have some point our troops can come home. thought that the details of how we do it are best left to the Members Estimate Committee, and it is for the Mr. Cameron: The Prime Minister is right: of course shadow Leader of the House to put his views there. I it is for military commanders to make the precise think, if I am right, that we were trying to reach a dispositions. But everyone agrees that one of the keys to consensus about how we would move forward on these successful counter-insurgency is a dense population of issues. I think we should all say that the sooner we can troops to protect the civilian population, and the figures deal with all the issues the better, but the best way of tell a vital story. Soon, 20,000 US forces will be responsible dealing with them is by the process that we ourselves for some 30 per cent. of the population, and less than agreed. 10,000 British troops will be responsible for some 70 per cent. So let me just ask him again: how quickly does he Mr. Cameron: With respect, the question of whether think that this vital issue can be sorted out, so that we you publish the totals is not a matter of detail; it seems have effective counter-insurgency throughout southern to me pretty profound. You have got to publish the Afghanistan? totals so that the public can see that we are being open, transparent and straightforward about this issue that has done so much damage to this House. The Prime Minister: I am grateful that the right hon. Gentleman raises these questions, because I can point After the Queen’s Speech—[Interruption.] out to the Opposition that we are part of a coalition. Mr. Speaker: Order. Government Back Benchers need These decisions are made as part of a coalition: they are to simmer down. made in Helmand with the Americans and the other forces who are there. Yes, we have decided to thicken in Mr. Cameron: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. certain areas, but yes, the Americans have laid the priority for the next few months and years on training After the Queen’s Speech, I offered the Prime Minister the Afghan forces, and that is what we are also going to our support if he brought forward the legislation to do. implement the Kelly report in full. The Leader of the House has said that she is prepared to talk about this. I would say to the right hon. Gentleman that we have Can he confirm that the necessary legislation will be an Afghan army of about 90,000, it will increase over brought forward—and, indeed, that it will be published the next year to about 135,000, and the number will before Christmas? Does he agree with me that we need have to go higher than that for Afghanistan to be able to end this damaging year for Parliament by showing to sustain its own security control. The police force is at once and for all that we “get it”? about 90,000 at the moment. It will have to be improved by police trainers, and we will need more police on the The Prime Minister: On the very issue the right hon. ground as well. That is the way forward for Afghanistan. Gentleman raises—perhaps he should know this—I I would say to the right hon. Gentleman again that understand that a meeting is taking place this afternoon decisions about the location of troops are a matter for to deal with exactly the issues that we are talking about. commanders on the ground, but we work in close I would prefer that we agreed that there be the maximum partnership with the Americans, and our decisions are transparency, and that we will do everything we can to taken with the rest of the alliance. make that happen. We have set up the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority to do this. Let it get Mr. Cameron: I am grateful to the Prime Minister for on with the job of doing it, and let us reach a consensus that answer, and for discussing this issue. [HON.MEMBERS: in this House that the maximum transparency is what “Oh!”] No, honestly, this is an important point, and I we are going to achieve. do believe it has to be sorted out. Crucially, there are political elements to this decision, and what I am saying Mr. Cameron: Of course, but the point is that Kelly to him is that he will have our support if he makes those made a series of recommendations, and the Prime Minister decisions. said that the whole point of prolonging this Parliament 351 Oral Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Oral Answers 352 was to put them into place. Many of these recommendations knows the level of child benefit and child tax credit, require legislation, so the legislation needs to be brought because child benefit, taken with tax credit, has trebled forward. for the poorest families in this country since 1997. We The Chancellor of the Exchequer is about to stand have taken more children out of poverty than any up and deliver his pre-Budget report. He should be previous Government since 1945, and we are taking announcing measures to bring the deficit under control. more action today: if the right hon. Gentleman listens Does the Prime Minister agree with me that we should to the Chancellor, he will hear what he is going to do. show some leadership, and begin with this place? Will Our record in taking children out of poverty, when he therefore support our plans for a 5 per cent. cut in poverty had trebled under the Conservatives, is one that ministerial pay followed by a five-year freeze, and a we will build on in the years to come. 10 per cent. cut in the size of the House of Commons? Mr. Clegg: Again, I do not get an answer, I get a list. The Prime Minister: Our deficit reduction plan involves [Interruption.] Labour Members can shout as much as major changes in how government operates, including they like, but it does not change the facts. Here is a list: how Ministers and civil servants operate. I hope that the child poverty is going up again—[Interruption.] right hon. Gentleman will agree with the measures that we are bringing forward. I would say to him that the Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Clegg must be heard. It is reason why we have a deficit is that we have spent to very early in the day and Members are already overexcited. take ourselves through the recession. If we had taken They need to simmer down. his advice, more people would have been unemployed, more small businesses would have gone under, more Mr. Clegg: Here is a list that they do not like to hear. mortgage owners would have lost their homes, and we Child poverty is going up again. Inequality is going up. would be facing a higher deficit and higher debt as a Last winter more people died of the cold than did a result. Mr. Speaker, when I listen to him now, it seems decade ago, and a child born today in the poorest part to me that he has lost the art of communication, but of this country will die a full 14 years before a child not, alas, the gift of speech. born somewhere else. That has not changed in 10 years. Will the Prime Minister now be honest? He has failed Mr. Speaker: I call Mr. Kevin Barron. [Interruption.] on fairness. Order. I am sure Government Back Benchers want to hear their colleague. The Prime Minister: We have taken action over the 10 years. I know that the right hon. Gentleman does not like me reading lists of what we have done, but the Mr. Kevin Barron (Rother Valley) (Lab): Does the problem is that he cannot read any lists of what he has Prime Minister agree that people who purport to stand done. What we have done is taken hundreds of thousands to be Members of this House, and give interviews to of children out of poverty, protected children and families national newspapers saying that if they are elected they against the costs of energy bills, given thousands of will not claim expenses, and that their wealth makes children Sure Start opportunities that they never would them incorruptible, only for us to find that that wealth have had and doubled the child tax credit for nought to is held in tax havens abroad, are unfit to be Members of one-year-olds to help avoid infant poverty. The right this House? hon. Gentleman wants to abolish the child trust fund, and we are giving young children the chance for the first The Prime Minister: Some time the Conservative time to have a trust fund of their own. We are the party party will have to face up to the fact that it is the first that will give every child in this country a trust fund. party in history to have devised a tax policy just for For the Conservatives and the Liberals, trust funds are itself. just for the few.

Mr. Nick Clegg (Sheffield, Hallam) (LD): I should Early Intervention like to add my own expressions of sympathy and condolence to the family and friends of Lance Corporal Adam Q2. [304964] Mr. Graham Allen (Nottingham, North) Drane of 1st Battalion the Royal Anglian Regiment, (Lab): What recent discussions he has had with hon. who tragically lost his life serving in Afghanistan on Members on an all-party approach to policy on early Monday. We will remember him, as we remember all intervention. those who have made the ultimate sacrifice serving in the mission in Afghanistan. The Prime Minister: I congratulate my hon. Friend Yesterday, the Prime Minister said that fairness was on his pioneering work on this issue. Following my in his DNA, and today we are told that fairness will be meeting with him and parliamentary colleagues, I visited the centrepiece of the pre-Budget report. So why is it some of the early intervention projects in Nottingham, that 4 million children are still living in poverty, one in including in his constituency. I welcome everyone working five young people are out of work and millions of poor together on early intervention. There are 50,000 families pensioners will struggle this winter simply to keep warm? who need our help, and breaking intergenerational cycles He dares to talk about fairness, but does he not realise of deprivation requires us all to work consistently on how offensive that is to the millions of people who feel early intervention over the years. that they have been let down by Labour? Mr. Allen: Do the Prime Minister and the other party The Prime Minister: The last time we talked about it a leaders here today accept that giving our babies, children few months ago, the right hon. Gentleman did not and young people the social and emotional bedrock know the level of the state pension. I hope that he that they need through early intervention not only gives 353 Oral Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Oral Answers 354 them a great start in life but, at a time of financial strategy that the Government will miss their 2011 targets restraint, will save the taxpayer billions and billions of for level 3 technical skills. In that spirit of confession, pounds by reducing the bill for low educational attainment, will the Prime Minister now concede that fewer people crime, drink and drug abuse, and lifetimes that are are beginning level 3 apprenticeships than 10 years ago? currently wasted on benefits? The Prime Minister: We are actually doing far more The Prime Minister: I visited Nottingham, as I said, to increase the number of apprenticeships. There are and saw the success of an early intervention programme more apprenticeships this year than last year—and let that had taken a family that was in absolute chaos, and us remember that there were 70,000 apprenticeships in every single member of that family was benefiting from 1997, whereas there are a quarter of a million now. If the professional work that had been done to help them. the hon. Gentleman wants to help people to get to I have seen early intervention in action. We are putting level 3, why does the Conservative party oppose the in a programme in all parts of the country. It is summer school leavers guarantee, which helps young complemented by Sure Start, where young people can people to get those qualifications in their teens? Why get the chance, before nursery school age, to get help does the Conservative party oppose the money that is with learning, and help for their mothers with health necessary to give every young person, not just some and education. If we are going to have early intervention, young people, a chance? we must also have Sure Start. I hope all parties in the House will want to maintain the Sure Start programme. Q4. [304966] Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): I have had There are 3,000 centres—an average of six in each many letters in recent weeks about the Copenhagen constituency—and it is something that we want to build climate change conference. On the subject of low- upon, not destroy. carbon energy sources, can I ask my right hon. Friend what steps he is taking to convince people further of Andrew Selous (South-West Bedfordshire) (Con): Does the importance of nuclear energy and wind farms in the Prime Minister accept that early intervention work that overall policy? is especially important in addressing the root causes of poverty? The Prime Minister: We meet in a week when a big set The Prime Minister: Absolutely: dealing with the of decisions has to be made at Copenhagen. I know that root causes of poverty involves helping people to find there is all-party support for our desire to get the best jobs. That is why we have the new deal—but unfortunately, possible agreement at Copenhagen that could lead to it is opposed by the Conservative party. Tackling the substantial reductions in carbon. We—as Europe, and root causes of poverty means helping people to deal as Britain—have said that we will lead the way in with health problems. That is why we spend money on making substantial reductions in carbon. I have to tell the health service, instead of calling it a 60-year-old my hon. Friend that that will happen only if we have a mistake. That is what we are about—helping to deal balanced energy policy, and only if we are able to tackle with the root causes of the problem, by investing in the issue of renewables. Yes, we need nuclear power as people. part of our energy policy—I am sorry that the Opposition Engagements say that for them it is only a last resort—but we also need wind power as part of the renewables that we are Q3. [304965] Lindsay Roy (Glenrothes) (Lab): If he will going to create in the future. We need not just offshore list his official engagements for Wednesday 9 December. wind power but onshore wind power, and I am sorry that applications are being turned down by Conservative The Prime Minister: I refer my hon. Friend to the authorities, when we want to get wind power and wind answer I gave some moments ago. turbines in our country. I am afraid the Conservative policy on energy is all talk and no action—all wind and Lindsay Roy: Child tax credits are a vital support for no turbine. [Interruption.] many parents, especially those on incomes of around £16,000. Will the Prime Minister reassure my constituents Mr. Speaker: Order. Before hon. Members get too that he will not cut help for those many hard-working excited, I want to fit a lot more Back Benchers in. families to pay for tax cuts for the wealthiest few? The Prime Minister: Child tax credits have lifted Q12. [304974] Alistair Burt (North-East Bedfordshire) 500,000 children out of poverty, and they are now (Con): Last Sunday, the people of Northall in my helping people through this recession: 400,000 families, constituency were unable to obtain a drinks licence for some of whose breadwinners are on short-time work or their annual lunch at the village hall because the work part time, have been able to claim tax credits Government-imposed limit of 15 for the year had been worth, on average, £37 a week. That is our way of reached. Inquiries of Bedfordshire police suggested helping people out of recession. I would regret it very that neither the lunch nor the hall regularly featured in much if any party chose to cut tax credits by £400 million. their investigations of binge drinking and loutish I understand that that would affect every family with an behaviour. Will the Prime Minister review the income above £16,000—which means that it is a policy bureaucratic and unnecessary regulation that prompts that will hurt the many, at a time when that same party these decisions and ensure a return to local discretion, wants to benefit the few. which is how these decisions should be made, or will he make way for a Government who will? Mr. John Hayes (South Holland and The Deepings) (Con): The Prime Minister should know that skills are The Prime Minister: I am happy to take this issue up. vital for economic recovery and our competitiveness, so I want people to have that opportunity. This should be a he will have been as disappointed as I was with Lord matter for far greater local discretion, and we will do Mandelson’s concession in the recently published skills our best to achieve that. 355 Oral Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Oral Answers 356

Q5. [304967] Keith Vaz (Leicester, East) (Lab): Last Q7. [304969] Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) weekend a much-loved Leicestershire teacher, Mark (LD): What is the Prime Minister prepared to do about Parker, died aged only 56 following a hypoglycaemic the fact that some of the most vulnerable people who attack because of his diabetes. Wecurrently spend £1 million have the greatest difficulty in heating their homes pay an hour on treating diabetes-related illnesses, but there the highest tariffs for their fuel, either because they are still an estimated 7 million Britons with a pre-diabetes have pre-payment meters or because they live in areas condition, probably including Members of Parliament. with no gas supply and do not have access to dual-fuel I was diagnosed only three years ago. What steps will the tariffs? Government take to ensure that every person in this country has access to a diabetes test? That would save The Prime Minister: I am grateful that the right hon. money, and in the long run save lives. Gentleman has raised that point, because the Energy Bill is an attempt to deal with some of the problems that The Prime Minister: My right hon. Friend is right arise and to ensure that the social tariff is far fairer for about the importance of dealing with diabetes. The test people with difficulties. However, I also have to remind for identifying those at risk of developing type 2 diabetes him that into the homes of thousands—indeed, millions—of is included in the NHS health check that will be offered pensioners in the past few days has come the winter fuel to those aged 40 to 74. It will also assess people’s risk of allowance, which is paid to everyone over 60, and is heart disease, stroke and kidney disease, and help individuals higher for the over-80s. It is one contribution that we to manage that risk. We believe that we will be able to can make to help with the heating bills of the poorest in identify at least 20,000 cases of diabetes and kidney our society, but it is a contribution made to every disease earlier, and that will be important for the health pensioner and everyone over 60 in our country. I hope of our country and for preventing the further costs that that there is now a consensus that that is the right thing result when people suffer from those diseases. Investment to do. in that programme now will save money later, and it is the right way forward for the national health service to Q15. [304977] John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): When I give people personal guarantees that they will have was out with the police on a Friday night in my area, those health checks free of charge. only 14 police officers were on duty in the division, out of a total complement of 2,380. Will the Prime Minister intervene directly and swiftly to sort Q6. [304968] Mr. John Leech (Manchester, Withington) out the organisational malaise that characterises (LD): Given that the Prime Minister has said that Nottinghamshire police? front-line NHS services should not be affected by cuts, will he join me in condemning the decision by NHS The Prime Minister: The Home Secretary tells me Manchester to close the Burnage walk-in centre, that Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary is looking against the wishes of local people? into Nottinghamshire police at the moment, but I have to say that the whole purpose of neighbourhood policing, The Prime Minister: I understand that the closure has which we have developed over the past two years, is to been postponed to allow the primary care trust to get more police on the streets. For that, we need to inform the people about the alternative services that are invest in policing and emphasise the concept that the available. We have invested an additional £250 million police serve the neighbourhood. That is exactly what we in 100 new GP practices in poorly serviced areas and in are doing. 152 new health centres. This is a matter for decision by the local NHS, together with patients and others. I Q8. [304970] Mr. Adam Holloway (Gravesham) (Con): understand that the hon. Gentleman said at the last Does the Prime Minister agree with Ben Bernanke that election that a hospital in his area would close: that the Prime Minister’s decision to strip the Bank of hospital is still in being. England of its supervising role led to a “destructive run” and a Jeff Ennis (Barnsley, East and Mexborough) (Lab): “major problem for the British economy”? Will the Prime Minister join me in congratulating American The Prime Minister: No. I think that anybody who bedspring manufacturers Leggett & Platt on investing looks at the global recession knows that it started with some $22 million in establishing their European the problems of the banking system in America, which headquarters in Grimethorpe in my constituency? That spread right across the world. Our tripartite system is is mainly thanks to the efforts of Yorkshire Forward the right way to deal with these problems, because it and the Barnsley development agency. Does he also brings together the Bank of England, the Financial agree with me that places such as Barnsley and Doncaster Services Authority and the Treasury. I noticed that only specifically, and Yorkshire and Humber in general, are yesterday the Leader of the Opposition changed the still great places for foreign companies to invest? shadow Chancellor’s policy on the future of the banking system, and that he also talked yesterday about introducing The Prime Minister: This is exactly the policy that the “flatter taxes”. Flatter taxes mean less tax paid by the Chancellor is pursuing, and that his pre-Budget report very wealthy. Before the Conservatives come to give us is about. It is about recovery from recession by investing lectures on economic policy, they should go back to the in the future, and it is about getting growth in the drawing board. economy so that we get new jobs in new areas. I applaud the work that my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley, Q9. [304971] Emily Thornberry (Islington, South and East and Mexborough (Jeff Ennis) does. This is the Finsbury) (Lab): Will my right hon. Friend give the party of jobs, whereas the Opposition would leave public a guarantee that he will never lift the ban on millions unemployed. hunting with dogs? 357 Oral Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Oral Answers 358

The Prime Minister: I am surprised that a political job creation policy—to create a quango to run fox party wants to fight the next election on withdrawing hunting. I believe that it is making a terrible mistake, the ban on fox hunting. In fact, that is that party’s only and it will pay for it at the next election. 359 9 DECEMBER 2009 Pre-Budget Report 360

Pre-Budget Report economy until recovery is established. To cut support now could wreck the recovery. That is a risk that I am not prepared to take. 12.32 pm This time last year, we recognised the exceptional trading difficulties that businesses here were facing. In The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Alistair Darling): the past, inaction by Government to support firms led Today’s pre-Budget report takes place at a critical time to widespread—and avoidable—business failure. I was for our economy and for our country. Governments determined that we did not repeat that mistake. So in an across the world have taken co-ordinated steps to deal unprecedented move, I cut VAT to 15 per cent. for a with the biggest financial crisis for over half a century. year, to put more than £11 billion into the pockets of In the UK, our action has reduced the impact of this consumers and retailers. That countered the impact on downturn on families and businesses, but there is still businesses of the global credit squeeze and the collapse much uncertainty, so the task today is to ensure the in consumer demand when it was needed most. I can recovery and promote long-term growth. confirm that VAT will return to 17.5 per cent. on To promote growth, we need to invest in the dynamic 1 January, as planned. I have no other changes in VAT sectors of the future—in digital, bio and low-carbon to announce. technology—and I will announce measures that will To ease problems with cash flow and access to bank support those industries. To promote growth, we also lending, we deferred tax rises and extended tax allowances need to invest in the skills of young people to prevent a for businesses. Because we chose to intervene, the rate lost generation of youth unemployment. I will announce of business insolvencies is far lower than would have measures to guarantee work opportunities for the young. been expected. In the recession of the early 1990s, To promote growth we also need to maintain support proportionally twice as many businesses went under. until the recovery is secured and to halve the deficit over While some measures such as the VAT cut and the four years, in an orderly way that does not threaten working capital and trade credit insurance schemes are investment vital to our future. The choice is between finishing, it is right to extend others while uncertainty going for growth and putting the recovery at risk—to remains. The time-to-pay scheme has helped more than reduce the deficit while protecting front-line services, or 160,000 businesses spread their tax payments over a cuts that put those services in danger. The choice is timetable that they can afford. They can get additional between two competing visions. This pre-Budget report time when they need it most and, because firms continue is about building a fairer society and securing opportunity trading, the likelihood of companies paying the tax for all. owed increases, so I have decided that the scheme will be When I delivered the pre-Budget report just over extended for as long as it is needed. 12 months ago, we were faced with the sharpest and Last year, I temporarily increased the threshold for most widespread global downturn in generations. The empty property relief to help small businesses. I can near collapse of the financial system quickly fed through announce that it will be extended, so that for 2010-11, into the wider global economy. World trade went down empty commercial properties with a rateable value below sharply and unemployment sharply up across the world. £18,000 will be exempt from business rates. Seventy per Families and businesses in every continent felt the pain. cent. of all empty properties will continue, therefore, to be exempt. I have one further announcement to help Governments around the world intervened to rescue small businesses. I have decided to defer the increase in the banking system. We supported our economies with corporation tax for smaller companies. That will leave tax cuts, increased Government spending and co-ordinated the 2010 rate unchanged for 850,000 small businesses, action to lower interest rates and to boost money supply. helping them until the recovery is secured. No choices were easy choices; indeed, some even argued that we should not have acted at all. But as a result of In the early 1990s, hundreds of thousands of families those actions, there is growing evidence that global lost their homes. I did not want to see that repeated, so confidence is returning. The US housing market, which we introduced a range of measures to allow families to triggered the crisis, is stabilising—so is the housing stay in their homes and to help young couples on to the market here. Global manufacturing is up almost 6 per housing ladder. As a result, repossessions are now running cent., world stock markets by 30 per cent. at around half the rate of the recession of the early 1990s. By the time the stamp duty holiday finishes at the As the world’s largest financial centre, the turmoil in end of this month, I expect 240,000 home buyers to the banking sector has had a substantial effect on the have been helped. But with unemployment still likely to UK. With more home owners here than in Europe, a rise, it would not be right to withdraw all support now global slump in property prices hit confidence hard in for home owners. this country. As the sixth biggest exporter of goods and Last year I improved the scheme giving support for the second largest exporter of services, our trade has mortgage interest, to provide better cover for mortgage been hit. But as demand picks up abroad, as is already interest payments for those who had lost their jobs. happening, British businesses will benefit. So I am More than 220,000 people have been helped so far. I confident that the UK economy will start growing by have decided that that additional support will be extended the turn of the year. for a further six months. There will, of course, be a cost However, across the world, there remain risks to to that and other continued Government support, but recovery. Oil prices are volatile. Recent market reaction the cost to families of losing their home would be to financial problems in Dubai highlights just how immense, and it would be a false economy for the fragile world confidence remains. So while I am confident country. The more successful these measures are in that the UK economy is on the road to recovery, we restoring confidence to the housing market, the lower cannot be complacent. We must continue to support the the cost will be to the Exchequer. 361 Pre-Budget Report9 DECEMBER 2009 Pre-Budget Report 362

The best way of avoiding repossessions is to help regardless of their age. To make it easier for those over people to stay in work or re-enter the labour market 65 to receive the working tax credit, we will reduce the quickly. Such a deep global recession was always going minimum number of hours they need to work to be to have a damaging impact on employment. The bleak eligible. news last week that Corus is to shut its Teesside plant We chose not to let people sink when they lost their underlined the fact that the reduction in global demand jobs, but to intervene to help them to stay afloat. That is will have an impact on jobs for some time to come. That good for the individuals and their families, and also for is why, yesterday, I agreed with the Secretary of State the wider economy, boosting spending and, in turn, for Business, Innovation and Skills to provide £30 million creating new jobs. The more successful our targeted from within existing resources to help industry in Teesside. support, the more likely that the rise in unemployment No Government, even during times of the strongest will be lower than expected and therefore cost the economic growth, can prevent every job loss. country less, as has already happened. Government Unemployment has risen in the UK and will keep rising action has made a real difference. for some time, but it remains lower than it was in The worldwide recession has had an impact on all France, Canada, the United States and the euro area. In families, and it is often the most vulnerable who are fact, even now, there are some 2.5 million more people affected the most, including those on modest incomes in work than there were in 1997. Because of our values who have been put on shorter hours. The Government’s of fairness and opportunity, promoting employment flexible tax credits system has risen to the challenge of has always been, and remains, a top priority for this the downturn, delivering substantial support to families Government. Unemployment can never be a price worth to compensate for that loss of pay. I can tell the House paying. that so far this year, because of tax credits 400,000 As the global recession hit our country, we responded families whose income has fallen have benefited from by bringing forward investment in vital infrastructure that extra help—on average by £37 more per week. For projects to protect jobs, and finding an additional £3 billion those who doubt the value of tax credits, here is the to help people to find new work more quickly. We proof that they work. expanded the Jobcentre Plus network and offered support The recession has also had other effects. For the first through the rapid response service to staff in 3,000 time in half a century, the retail prices index has been firms hit by redundancies. Help including training, negative for much of the year. That helps families with volunteering and recruitment subsidies has been offered the cost of essential goods, but many benefits and tax for those still unemployed after six months. credits are also linked to the September RPI. RPI It is clear that we are making a difference. Unemployment inflation last September was minus 1.4 per cent. That has increased much less than expected by independent would have meant no increase in those benefits in April. forecasters. If we had seen the same rate of job losses, I do not believe that such a freeze would be fair, so I can relative to GDP, as we saw in the early 1990s, four times confirm that the basic state pension will not be frozen, as many people would have lost their jobs. Despite the but will rise by 2.5 per cent. in April—a real-terms severity of the global recession, the claimant count increase of nearly 4 per cent. today stands at 1.6 million, compared with the 3 million I can also tell the House that, from the time of the reached in 1985 and 1992. Our comprehensive support Budget, I will cut bingo duty from 22 to 20 per cent.— means that a short spell in unemployment is not turning [Interruption.]Obviously a popular measure. I also want into a lifetime on benefits, as happened in the recessions to help families in receipt of other benefits linked to the of the ’80s and ’90s. Indeed, more than 3 million people inflation figures, such as child benefit and some disability have been helped off the claimant count in the past benefits, so those benefits will rise by 1.5 per cent. in year. April. Despite this support, there are groups who need more We are committed to helping people back into work, help. Past recessions have had a very damaging impact and making work pay. I have decided to roll out across on young people, who should have been starting their the country a guarantee that anyone in work will always working lives, but instead were unemployed. Our package be better off than they were on benefits. If that is not of support for the young already includes a place for happening already, they will be guaranteed extra money every 16 and 17-year-old in education or training. I from the Government, making sure that work really intend to provide funding so that this guarantee will be does pay for everyone and encouraging more people to available to school leavers again next September. In the re-enter the labour market. So we are continuing to Budget, I went further and announced that every 18 to provide targeted support for people and businesses, as 24-year-old would be guaranteed work or training after we secure the recovery. 12 months out of work. I do not want them to have to Across world economies, the first half of this year wait that long, however, so I am going to bring that saw a sharper deterioration than had been expected. forward. I have decided that, from next month, no one That was also true here in the UK. Up to the third under 24 needs to be unemployed for longer than six quarter of this year, the global recession has meant a months before being guaranteed work or training. cumulative economic contraction of 3.2 per cent. in the In the past, older people were allowed—indeed, often United States, 5.6 per cent. in Germany, 5.9 per cent. in encouraged—to drift into permanent unemployment, Italy and 7.7 per cent. in Japan. Over the year as a but we cannot afford to write off their experience. So we whole, the UK economy is expected to have contracted will ensure that the over-50s receive specialist and tailored by 4.75 per cent. this year, but as I forecast at the support to equip them with the confidence and skills Budget, I expect a return to growth in the fourth quarter. they need to get a job. We also want to encourage those Next year, I forecast growth of between 1 and 1.5 per who want to stay working part-time after they reach cent., as I said in the Budget. Because of the underlying retirement age, and to make work pay for everyone, strength of our economy, the pick-up in world demand 363 Pre-Budget Report9 DECEMBER 2009 Pre-Budget Report 364

[Mr. Alistair Darling] fall to £176 billion. As the economy recovers and the deficit reduction plan starts to take effect, it will fall to and the substantial spare capacity opened up by the £140 billion and then to £117 billion, and will reach recession, my Budget forecast, broadly in line with that £96 billion in 2013-14—a slightly lower level than I of the Bank of England, of growth of 3.5 per cent. in forecast in April—before falling to £82 billion in 2014-15. 2011 and 2012 remains unchanged. This growth, however, As a share of GDP, borrowing will be 12.6 per cent. this will come from more varied sources and not depend as year, 12 per cent. next year, then 9.1 per cent, then much on the financial sector, which will, of course, 7.1 per cent., and 5.5 per cent. in 2013-14. It will fall to remain an important part of our economy. Growth will 4.4 per cent. in 2014-15. If we exclude public sector be driven by fresh opportunities to export as the global investment, or capital spending, and take the economic economy expands and by investment by businesses in cycle into account, the budget deficit is expected to fall the key industries of the future. It is growth that I am to 1.9 per cent. at the end of the forecast period. determined to support in this pre-Budget report. Public sector debt has increased in every G20 country Partly because of the reversal of the VAT cut, consumer as a result of this global recession. Net debt as a share inflation will rise from 1.5 per cent. to around 3 per of GDP is expected to reach 82 per cent. in Germany, cent. early next year, before falling back. The Bank of 83 per cent. in France, and 85 per cent. in the United England expects inflation then to fall below target and States. As a result of the lower provision for possible reach 1.5 per cent. by the end of next year. losses in our financial sector this year, I can forecast The global recession has had an impact on the public that net debt will reach 56 per cent. of GDP. It will then finances in every country, with tax revenues falling and rise to 65 per cent. next year, and to 78 per cent. by the spending increasing to support the economy. Here in end of the forecast period in 2014-15. However, net debt the United Kingdom, the financial sector, which provided as a share of GDP will fall the year after that. Even at over a quarter of all corporate tax revenues, has been its peak, debt will be in line with the average for the hard hit. Revenues from stamp duty and income tax are other G7 economies. sharply down and it will take time for tax revenues to I believe that we have made the right choices to help recover. the country through the recession when we could have Our steps to maintain stability in the banking sector chosen to do nothing. We also need to make the right have also had an impact on the public finances. At the choices to reduce the deficit. In the Budget, I set out Budget, given the extreme uncertainty at the time, I how we would do that by encouraging growth now and made a provisional £50 billion estimate of the possible in the future, with fair tax increases and with tighter taxpayer losses from our interventions in the financial control of public spending. I now want to set out sector. Those risks have now significantly diminished further details of how we will achieve this deficit reduction because of the successful intervention of Governments plan. to support the global financial system. Lloyds Banking The combination of the talents of the British people Group, for example, has been able to raise capital from and today’s low inflation and low interest rate environment the markets and is not receiving Government support in provides us with a strong platform to meet our ambition the asset protection scheme. We have also restructured of long-term sustainable growth—so does having the RBS’s participation in that scheme, so there are no most flexible labour market in Europe, the lowest rate expected losses for the taxpayer. Other banks are also in of corporation tax in the G7, and a competition regime a much more stable situation. As a result, I can revise that is among the best in the world. That is why ours is down my provision for any potential impact on the judged to be one of the best locations in which to do public finances from £50 billion to around £10 billion, business and attract inward investment. I am determined but our objective remains to get all the taxpayers’ to build on those strengths today by maintaining our money back, on top of the fees charged for supporting leadership in the low-carbon sector, boosting investment banks through this crisis. in our national infrastructure and skills, and supporting I have made clear that support during the downturn our world-class high-tech industries. must go hand-in-hand with steps to rebuild our fiscal In line with the overall neutrality of this pre-Budget strength once recovery is firmly established. Backed by report, two thirds of the targeted measures that I shall legislation introduced today, the Government will ensure now announce come from within existing budgets. If that public sector net borrowing as a share of GDP falls businesses are to expand and grow, they need access to every year and is more than halved by 2013-14, and that credit. Following the intervention by the Government, net debt as a share of GDP is falling in 2015-16. I total bank loans to businesses today are above where believe that that is a sensible timetable. To consolidate they were when the crisis hit in 2007. We have seen over too soon, too quickly or too indiscriminately, as some £50 billion in new business loans from RBS and Lloyds have proposed, would risk delaying the recovery and alone. But unsurprisingly, at the same time other businesses threatening a longer recession. When Japan tightened have reacted to the uncertainty by repaying existing prematurely in the 1990s, it pushed the economy back loans, which is why net lending as a whole is down. I am into recession, making debt and deficits higher, not very aware that some small and medium-sized businesses lower. still encounter difficulties in obtaining loans. As recovery Taken as a whole, this pre-Budget report secures a gets under way, we shall need to ensure that SMEs fall in borrowing each year until 2013-14 to meet our obtain the credit they need. We must work with the deficit reduction plan. In the Budget, I forecast that banks to ensure that that happens. We are also working public sector net borrowing would be £175 billion this to secure a contribution from major banks towards a year and would then fall to £97 billion in 2013-14. £500 million growth capital fund which will invest Because of the severity of the recession, my forecast for specifically in small businesses. We will announce further this year’s borrowing is £178 billion. Next year it will details shortly. 365 Pre-Budget Report9 DECEMBER 2009 Pre-Budget Report 366

In January we launched the enterprise finance guarantee, has delivered more than 70 road and motorway schemes which has already offered Government guarantees on and improved journey times across the rail network. bank loans to over 6,000 businesses. Today I have Work is now under way on Crossrail, the Thameslink decided to extend the scheme for a further 12 months, project and, from this month, the upgrade of the M1. which will guarantee a further £500 million of loans to All that work will continue; so will the rail electrification small businesses. programmes for the Great Western main line and the This week sees the start of the UN conference on north-west that were announced in July. climate change, an historic opportunity for the reaching I have given the go-ahead to further plans for rail of a universal agreement to tackle global warming. We electrification between Liverpool, Manchester and Preston. can be proud that the UK has led the way: on meeting My right hon. and noble Friend the Secretary of State Kyoto targets, introducing carbon budgets, and recognising for Transport will announce further details shortly. The that developing countries need help to reduce their own Government will also respond, early next year, to the emissions. Tackling climate change will bring new proposals for a new high-speed rail line from London to opportunities for new low-carbon industries, and that the west midlands and to the north and Scotland. will create the high-skilled, high-paid jobs that are Since 1997, we have helped millions of people gain crucial to our future prosperity. qualifications or training. The number of apprenticeships Today I can redirect existing funding and invest in has doubled. New advanced apprenticeships will meet wind power, renewable energy and other green industries. the skills needed in key growth areas, such as advanced Through the innovation investment fund and the Carbon manufacturing, low carbon, digital technologies, and Trust’s venture capital scheme, we will support at least the biosciences. We also want to break down informal £160 million of public and private investment in low-carbon barriers that close off some careers to undergraduates, projects. We will also invest £90 million in the European particularly from poorer backgrounds, so I can announce Investment Bank’s new 2020 fund, which will enable that we will offer financial support for up to 10,000 ¤6.5 billion of finance to be made available for green undergraduates from low-income backgrounds to take infrastructure projects. I can also tell the House that we up short-term internships in industry, businesses and will double our commitment to finance four carbon the professions. This will give them a taste of careers capture and storage demonstration projects, which will that they may not otherwise have considered. We will make us world leaders in that vital area. announce further details shortly. As well as investing in clean and low-carbon technologies, We are modernising the UK’s digital infrastructure we must all become more energy-efficient and cut emissions and, in the process, creating thousands more skilled as well as household bills. The roll-out of smart meters, jobs. We have provided funding to help extend the which will be completed in 2020, will help families to opportunities of the broadband network to more remote identify how to become more energy-efficient. Improving communities. We now want to go further, so that we can home insulation is key. A quarter of all the country’s provide the next generation of super-fast broadband to emissions come from households. Already 235,000 homes 90 per cent. of the population by the end of 2017. That have benefited from the Warm Front scheme to provide will be funded through a duty of 50p a month on more efficient heating and insulation for the most vulnerable. landlines, which will be included in the Finance Bill. Today I can announce an additional £200 million, from The oil and gas industry is an essential part of our April, to help with energy efficiency. An extra 75,000 economy. To encourage further investment, I am today households will benefit from an extension of the scheme. relaxing the criteria of the field allowances, to support That will go alongside further requirements, amounting the development of up to eight known fields and to to up to £300 million overall, for the energy companies encourage further exploration. We will work with industry to provide discounts on energy bills for a further 1 million to look at how best to ensure the development of low-income households. infrastructure to the west of Shetland. Inefficient domestic boilers add over £200 to household We already have a tremendous track record in key bills and 1 tonne of carbon to the atmosphere each growth industries. We have the leading medical year. I therefore want to build on the successful car biotechnology sector in Europe. Our aerospace industry scrappage scheme. I want to help 125,000 homes to is the second largest in the world. Our creative sector replace those inefficient boilers with new models. I can has increased exports by 60 per cent. since the beginning also announce changes to the climate change levy, company of this decade. All of that has been supported through car tax, and fuel benefit charge. our investment in science and our targeted tax policy. I have three more targeted measures to announce. This country has a remarkable record of ideas and From April, people with home wind turbines or solar innovation. We have won more Nobel prizes than any panels who plug excess power into the national grid will other country of our size. We need to do more to receive, on average, £900 a year. I intend to make that support this ingenuity and ensure this creativity is harnessed payment tax-free. To help to boost the number of by this country. I want to encourage research and electric cars on our streets, I have decided to exempt development in the pharmaceuticals and biotech industries them from company car tax for five years. I can also in particular. So, following consultation with business, I announce 100 per cent. first-year capital allowances for will introduce a new 10 pence corporation tax on income electric vans. that stems from patents in the UK. This will help A key component of our growth strategy is investment maintain jobs in science and technology in this country. to keep goods and people moving. The Government I also want to build on our world-class achievements have made huge strides in rebuilding the national in medical research. With the Wellcome Trust, Cancer infrastructure following years of neglect. Continued Research UK and University college London, we are public investment here is essential to growth. This year working on plans to establish the largest institute in public sector investment reached a 30-year high, and Europe for research into long-term medical challenges. 367 Pre-Budget Report9 DECEMBER 2009 Pre-Budget Report 368

[Mr. Alistair Darling] in house prices, but I do not believe that raising this allowance can possibly be a priority given the impact of The new strategic investment fund, set up in April, has the downturn on the country’s finances, so I have decided already agreed vital support to hi-tech projects such as to freeze the individual allowance at £325,000 for the Airbus in Wales and the life sciences in Scotland. We next year. That will still mean that fewer than 3 per cent. will expand this work through £100 million of redirected of estates will pay inheritance tax. funds and an extra £100 million. By supporting the I have decided against any further changes to income low-carbon sector and investing in our vital infrastructure tax rates or thresholds next year, except for some changes and our world-class industries, we will secure growth, in what can be tax-deductible. Because RPI inflation create new jobs and provide the revenue to help rebuild was negative in September, this will provide a real-terms our fiscal strength. benefit relative to inflation, but in April 2012 I have Supporting growth is vital to provide the future revenue decided to freeze the point at which people start to pay to halve borrowing over the next four years, but, as I income tax at 40 per cent. for one year. No one with have said, it also requires us to take some tough decisions income below £43,000 will be affected by this change. on tax now. I am determined that any tax increases will It is also fair that those who should pay tax do not continue to be guided by our values of fairness and escape their responsibilities. I am determined to tackle responsibility. Last year, the banks made collective losses activities such as avoidance and evasion, which undermine of £80 billion in this country alone. This would have tax receipts. Since the Budget, Her Majesty’s Revenue been much higher without the unprecedented level of and Customs has asked for details of at least 100,000 support from the taxpayer. There is no bank that has offshore accounts held at over 300 financial institutions. not benefited, either directly or indirectly, from this This pre-Budget report sets out anti-avoidance and help. This should be a time for banks to rebuild their smaller tax measures to deliver additional revenues and capital base and become stronger. A tax on profits, as protect £5 billion a year of existing revenues. has been suggested, would prevent them from doing These are tough, but necessary, measures to increase that, so I have decided against a windfall tax. However, tax, but I have done this in a fair way: those on modest there are some banks who still believe their priority is to incomes are protected; those on middle incomes will pay substantial bonuses to some already high-paid staff. pay more, depending on their earnings; but the biggest Their priority should be to rebuild their financial strength burden will fall on those with the broadest shoulders. and increase their lending, so I am giving them a choice: Today’s measures, combined with those from the Budget they can use their profits to build up their capital base, and last year’s pre-Budget report, mean that over half but if they insist on paying substantial rewards, I am of the additional revenue raised will be paid by the top determined to claw money back for the taxpayer. I have 2 per cent. of earners. decided to introduce from today a special one-off levy of 50 per cent. on any individual discretionary bonus Fairness in tax is a crucial part of maintaining fiscal above £25,000. This will be paid by the bank, not the sustainability, but the majority of the reduction in bank employee, and anti-avoidance measures will be borrowing will have to come from slower growth in introduced with immediate effect. High-paid bank staff overall public spending. We have already set out our will, of course, also have to pay, as usual, income tax at spending plans until April 2011, but I believe it would their top rate on any bonus they receive. On a cautious be dangerous, as the head of the International Monetary assumption, which includes our expectation that some Fund said only a couple of weeks ago, to reduce spending banks will rein back on bonuses, this levy is expected to too soon, so to continue to support jobs and the economy, yield just over £500 million. That additional money will we have decided to stick to our spending plans for next be used to pay for the extra measures that I have already year. In 2010-11, total public spending will increase by announced, such as help for the young and older £31 billion, a growth rate of 2.2 per cent. in real terms, unemployed to get back into work. providing continuing strong support for the wider economy until the recovery is firmly established. Once recovery is Under the existing rules, the highest earners benefit secured, we must, as I made clear at the time of the disproportionately from tax relief on pensions. At present, Budget, reduce the rate of growth in public spending, a quarter of all the money spent on pensions tax relief and meet our ambitious target to halve the deficit. goes to the top 1.5 per cent. of earners. To make this We take these decisions from a position of strength. fairer, I announced in the Budget that we would reduce In 1997, our public services were in crisis. Chronic pension tax relief for people with incomes of over under-investment in health and education had taken its £150,000. I want to do that as fairly as possible, and to toll: hospitals with too few nurses and doctors to meet treat individuals the same regardless of whether they the needs of patients; schools with too few teachers, receive their pay as current salary or as a future pension textbooks and computers. The country had failed, too, benefit, and prevent avoidance, so I have decided to to invest in transport and national infrastructure, all of include employer pension contributions in the definition which was damaging to our economy and prosperity. of income for this tax measure. To provide certainty, I That was the record we inherited and that was the will introduce a floor so that, irrespective of the size of record we had to deal with. We have worked to turn it employer pension contributions, no one with an income around, through a combination of strong investment below £130,000 will be affected. and far-reaching reform. I believe it is right that parents should be able to pass So, although the period ahead is going to be challenging, on savings to their children. Before the financial crisis our public services are in a better state they have been rocked the global economy, I enabled married couples for decades. However, we have to be realistic: the spending to combine their inheritance tax allowances, and this environment will be tough over the next few years. For will continue. I also said then that allowances would rise as long as extraordinary uncertainties remain in the to reflect inflation and the expected continued increase world economy, this is not a time for a spending review. 369 Pre-Budget Report9 DECEMBER 2009 Pre-Budget Report 370

We have already set out clear and firm departmental Mr. Speaker: Order. I apologise for interrupting the budgets for the next financial year, but to try to fix each Chancellor of the Exchequer. Mr. Bellingham, we have, Department’s budget now for the next five years is on a regular basis, a running commentary from you, but neither necessary nor sensible. We can, however, set out the House does not need it and the country does not a clear direction, based on our economic priorities and need it either. our values as a Government. We are clear that, following the investment made over Mr. Darling: As with previous pay decisions, we will the past decade, current spending growth can be set recognise the special circumstances of the armed forces. lower than in the past and fall to an average of 0.8 per There will be savings of £12 billion from greater efficiency, cent. a year between 2011-12 and 2014-15. That will of £5 billion from scaling back or cutting lower priorities, mean cuts to some budgets, as programmes come to an and of more than £4.5 billion from reducing the cost of end or resources are switched, and it will mean that public sector pay and pensions. These are difficult choices, some programmes will need to be stopped altogether. but they are essential if we are to stick to our plan to We believe that if Departments can find further savings halve the deficit and protect the front line. and cuts within their existing budgets, as many are Our first priority today must be to ensure that our already announcing, that will release resources so that armed forces have all the resources they need. The they can continue to provide services. Already individual whole House, especially this week, will want to join me Departments have made great strides in finding savings— in praising the dedication and valour of our troops, £10 billion in the NHS, £800 million in education and especially those engaged in the conflict in Afghanistan. more than £400 million in the police—but even in this They deserve all our support and we must match that much tighter financial environment we are determined support with resources. For the next year, I can announce to protect front-line services and sustain the improvements that a further £2.5 billion will be set aside for military that have been delivered over the past decade. The operations in Afghanistan. At the same time, we will pre-Budget report sets out our plan to do that while continue to improve the effectiveness of core defence halving the deficit. spending, reducing the civilian work force and restructuring First, we must make sure that we get maximum value the Department. I also want to do more to help those for every pound we spend. Between 2005 and 2008, we who have served in combat zones and are retiring from delivered £26.5 billion of annual efficiency savings, and the forces, so I can announce that £5 million will be between 2008 and 2011 we are delivering further efficiencies allocated from the strategic investment fund to help worth more than 3 per cent. of total departmental ex-service personnel who want to set up their own spending per year. This week, we announced plans to businesses. deliver another round of savings, amounting to £12 billion In 2005, we led the way towards abolishing the debts a year by 2013-14. We will abolish quangos, cut consultancy of the poorest countries, and we have committed to and marketing costs, improve procurement and streamline doing more in the fight against global poverty. Spending back-office functions. We will also sell those assets that on overseas aid remains a very small proportion of our can be managed better by the private sector. overall budget, but it does make a huge difference to the Secondly, we need to focus better on those areas that lives of millions of people, as well as creating a fairer make most difference to people’s lives. We have begun a world, helping to build markets for our goods and root-and-branch review to examine every area of countering extremism. I can confirm that we will honour Government spending to drive through efficiency, to our commitments, so spending on overseas aid will rise cut waste and to cut lower priority budgets. Today, I am to 0.7 per cent of gross national income by 2013. able to announce £5 billion of savings from spending Our priority is to protect those services that are programmes. This includes: phasing-in the roll-out of absolutely essential to the health of our society and the pension personal accounts; cutting back on the scope of strength of our economy: the health service, which is major IT projects; reforming legal aid and outsourcing crucial for our well-being; the police force, which is inefficient prisons; refocusing regeneration spending, so crucial for our safety; and our schools, which are crucial that it is spent where it is most needed; and cutting the for our future. I am determined that we will protect cost of residential care by supporting older people to improvements in those front-line services, on which stay in their own homes. Those are necessary choices. millions of people rely. That cannot be done without a Thirdly, on public sector pay and pensions, public further difficult decision. I intend to increase all employer, pensions need to be broadly in line with those offered in employee and self-employed rates of national insurance the private sector. So, by 2012 contributions by the state by a further half pence from April 2011. But to protect to public sector pensions for teachers, local government, those on modest incomes, I have also decided to raise the NHS and the civil service will be capped, saving the starting point from which national insurance is about £1 billion a year. Public sector workers will make payable, and no-one earning less than £20,000 will pay a greater contribution to the increasing value of pensions, more contributions as a result. This will raise £3 billion with those earning more than £100,000 paying more. a year from 2011-12. Public sector pay makes up about half of departmental As a result, I am today able to offer guaranteed spending. The senior civil service will take the lead with minimum real-terms increases in front-line NHS and a cut in its pay bill of up to £100 million over three schools spending for two years from 2011, as well as years, and any new Government appointment of someone providing sufficient funding to maintain the number of on more than £150,000 and all bonuses of more than police and community support officers. That means £50,000 will require explicit approval by the Treasury. I that I can confirm not just that we will increase spending can announce that for the two years from 2011 we will as planned next year on hospitals, schools and policing, ensure that all public sector pay settlements are capped but we can pledge that spending on these crucial front-line at 1 per cent. [Interruption.] services will continue to rise over and above inflation 371 Pre-Budget Report9 DECEMBER 2009 Pre-Budget Report 372

[Mr. Darling] deepest and longest recession in our modern history. No one will ever believe a word they say on the economy after 2010-11, so that we can meet the improved public again. service guarantees and entitlements that we have set Faced with this catastrophe, the Chancellor had three out. There will of course be Barnett consequentials for tasks today: first, to restore confidence in the Treasury Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. forecasts; secondly, to produce at last—we hoped—a I have one further announcement to make: because credible plan to deal with Britain’s record debts; and of my decisions today, I am able to extend free school finally, to show the world that Britain is open for meals to 500,000 primary school children of low-income business again and can create jobs. He failed on all three working parents who previously would not have been accounts. eligible. Once that is fully rolled out, it will lift an First, the forecasts. Every single time this Chancellor additional 50,000 children out of relative poverty and has come to this House, he has got his forecasts wrong, will be a step towards our target of abolishing child and today was no different. He confirmed that the GDP poverty by 2020. figures for this year show a contraction of 4.75 per cent. The decisions the Government have made have helped That is not only a full percentage point worse than the support businesses and families through the deepest figure in the Budget—it is almost four times worse than global recession for more than 60 years. These are when he delivered the last pre-Budget report. I noticed decisions that have been followed across the world but, in his speech a little sleight of hand. He gave the annual of course, have been opposed by some here. The steps contraction figure for the UK and the total contraction that I have announced today are aimed at securing figure for every other country. The total contraction recovery, reducing borrowing and, through targeted figure for the UK is 5.9 per cent., the worst since the investment, providing a springboard for long-term growth. 1930s. The choice facing the country is between securing recovery and wrecking it; between investment to build a fair It would be difficult to imagine that this year’s forecast society where all prosper or a divided society that for borrowing would be an underestimate, but so it favours the wealthy few; and between ambition driven turned out to be. I am told that they are having a row in by the values of fairness and opportunity or austerity Downing street: the Prime Minister wants to get his driven by an outdated dogma. I commend this statement forecasts wrong on purpose, while the Chancellor prefers to the House. to get them wrong by accident. Either way, Britain is borrowing £178 billion this year and £176 billion next Mr. George Osborne (Tatton) (Con): Today, confronted year. This is a figure that he did not give: £789 billion of with the biggest budget deficit in our peacetime history, additional borrowing over the next six years, and that is the right hon. Gentleman faced a choice: would he take based on some pretty heroic growth assumptions in the tough spending decisions before the general election future years. Of course, a sneaky fiddling of the definition or would he completely duck them? We were promised a of the structural deficit was buried in the report. It all pre-Budget report and what we got was a pre-election amounts to the fact that he is doubling the national report. The Government have today lost all the moral debt from where it is today to £1.4 trillion—£23,000 for authority to govern. Instead, the full scale of the economic every child born today. disaster that Labour has visited on this country is clear Without a hint of irony or contrition, the Chancellor to us all: the biggest debt we have ever known; spending publishes today what is farcically called a Fiscal cut on almost everything; taxes up on anyone who earns Responsibility Bill—as if we needed a law to tell us that more than £20,000 a year; Labour’s new tax on jobs; their irresponsibility has been criminal. This is what one and higher interest rates to pay for the higher borrowing. of the Prime Minister’s own appointments to the Monetary Every family in the country will be forced to pay for Policy Committee has just said about their law: years for this Prime Minister’s mistakes. At the end of “Fiscal responsibility acts are instruments of the fiscally their period in office, they have indeed adhered to the irresponsible to con the public.” greatest of golden rules: “Never trust a Labour Government The Chancellor should have introduced our plan for a with your money again.” proper, independent office for budget responsibility that Everything that the Government have told us on the will keep the Chancellor honest and ensure that never economy collapses in the face of the truth. They told us again can a Government fail to fix the roof when the that they would be prudent, and the figures that they sun is shining. have produced have shown us that Labour has quadrupled the national debt while in office. They told us that So, the Chancellor has not restored confidence in Britain was better prepared than other countries, Treasury forecasts. That was his first task. His second and now our budget deficit is higher than that of was to set out a credible plan to deal with the debt crisis. any other comparable country anywhere else in the Yesterday, as he well knows, another credit rating agency world. They specifically told us—this Prime Minister warned that that the UK was at risk of a downgrade. told us—that Britain would lead the world out of recession, Even this morning, the deputy leader of the Labour and now the rest of the world leaves Britain behind as it party was admitting on television that markets are recovers. getting more nervous than they were about Government borrowing. The Governor of the Bank of England says We are the only G20 economy in recession, and that we must that Prime Minister used to stand at the Dispatch Box on occasions like this and say that he had rewritten “eliminate a large part of the structural deficit” the laws of economics, that he had abolished the over the lifetime of this Parliament. I agree with the trade cycle, and that he had abolished boom and man in charge of monetary policy in this country. Yet bust. The numbers that the Chancellor has given us today the Chancellor is sticking with the same plan that confirm that this Prime Minister inflicted on us the he set out in the Budget—the plan that the Bank of 373 Pre-Budget Report9 DECEMBER 2009 Pre-Budget Report 374

England, the CBI and the OECD have all told him is Let me just say this about some of the tax measures not credible. The whole object of policy going forward that the Chancellor has announced in the Budget, the as we come into recovery is to keep interest rates as low last pre-Budget report and this pre-Budget report. The as possible for as long as possible. That is not what his message to aspiring families from these tax changes is recipe provides today. pretty clear: if you want to get on in life, if you want to As the debts have become bigger, so the Government’s own your own home, save for a pension or leave something response gets smaller. What the Chancellor had to say for your children, then the Labour party is not for you to the House today on spending is just not credible. He anymore. All that work Labour did to drag the party on promises more efficiency savings, but coming from the to the centre ground of British politics, as well as all the people who have just admitted that they wasted £4 billion effort it made to persuade the country that it was for on an NHS computer system, that rings a little hollow. enterprise and aspiration, is gone. Instead, it has erected As for the waste advisers who wrote those reports that a sign over the country that says, “Closed to enterprise the Chancellor is publishing today, they have lived up to and wealth creation,” all for the sake of narrow political their names by deciding that they will not waste any dividing lines. Instead of telling the country that we are more time with him: they are working with us. all in this together, Labour now pretends that it can solve our problems by setting one part of the country Then there are the proposals on bankers. We warned against another. At the next election, it will be the few the Chancellor two months ago that he should try to who support this approach and the many who reject it. stop big cash bonuses being paid out. I said in my conference speech that we should look at the tax system. Instead of a plan for growth and jobs, the Chancellor’s Let us be clear: the Government are going to pay out a plan means higher taxes, higher taxes on jobs, higher load of bankers’ bonuses that they should not have been interest rates and turning his back on aspiration and paying out in the first place, then put a one-year windfall enterprise. His third and final task—failed. There is no tax on them and declare it a triumph. The real test of confidence, no credible plan, no growth and aspiration this new tax will be whether it curbs bank bonuses is being abandoned. instead of curbing bank lending. Let us hope that it is Why is it that every Labour Government have taken more effective than those binding lending agreements this country to the brink of bankruptcy? Each one in that we once heard so much about at that Dispatch Box. turn seems to ignore the most basic rule of finance: if you keep on spending more than you earn, sooner or The Government say that they will use the money on later you run out of money. How difficult can it be for youth unemployment, because instead of abolishing it, them to remember this simple point? The country now as promised, the Prime Minister has led youth faces a choice. There is Labour’s route, which has been unemployment to a record high. We need a real, lasting set out for us today: higher debts leading to higher taxes plan to get Britain working and to deal not just with the and higher interest rates; the recovery choked off; and million or more people who have lost their job under Britain reduced again to being the sick man of Europe. Labour, but the millions more who have never had a job Or people can choose our route, which is to face up to under Labour. the problem; set out to eliminate a large part of the On spending, the Chancellor is prepared to tell us deficit in the Parliament for which we are accountable; what he will spend money on, but he stays almost expect everyone to share the burden, but protect the totally silent on where the real axe will fall. He is lowest paid; keep interest rates lower for longer; send achieving the previously impossible trick of ring-fencing the message out loud and clear that Britain is open for a black hole. He said, with understatement, that this is business; and transform the economy that Labour built not the time for a comprehensive spending review. This on debt into one in which we save and invest for our is from a Chancellor who said that that he was acting future. That is not going to happen under this Government. from a position of strength! Why is it not the time for a The Prime Minister—[Interruption.] comprehensive spending review? The Government have all the figures and they have access to all the information Mr. Speaker: Order. I apologise for interrupting the that they need. They had spending reviews just before shadow Chancellor. Mr. Prentice, you must calm down. the 2001 election and just before the 2005 election. You might have an opportunity later, but you must calm Now, suddenly, the spending review has to wait until down now. after the 2010 election. That spending review is the massive missing piece of this pre-Budget report. They Mr. Osborne: The Prime Minister always called himself have given us lavish detail on the few things that they the nation’s bank manager, and so he has been. He bet say that they are protecting, and almost nothing on the the nation’s finances on a never-ending property bubble many things that they are planning to cut. They are not and a City bonanza, and now, like every other failed being honest with the British people about the real price master of the universe, he is coming to the taxpayer and of their incompetence. This has got nothing to do with asking to be bailed out, but he should remember this: protecting front-line services and everything to do with most bail-outs start with a change at the top. protecting themselves. What we see today is not a Mr. Darling: I have listened to the shadow Chancellor credible plan on the debt, and the Chancellor has failed speak for the past 10 minutes or so, and there is one his second task. word that he did not mention—one word that he finds The Chancellor’s final task was to set out a real plan quite impossible to let pass his lips: “growth”. Not once for growth. What does he propose? A higher tax on did he mention the possibility of achieving growth. He jobs. That is his answer to Britain’s unemployment did not mention it in his conference speech, and he did problem—higher costs for struggling businesses and not mention it today, because it is the one thing that the more money taken from families. That is yet another Conservative party seems quite incapable of realising—that thing that we could have avoided if this Government we must secure long-term sustainable growth in this had taken the hard decisions in the good years. country. The alternative that he offered—[Interruption.] 375 Pre-Budget Report9 DECEMBER 2009 Pre-Budget Report 376

Mr. Speaker: Order. I am sorry to have to interrupt the schools that their children go to, but they also want the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I must say, Mr. Blunt, to make sure that as we come through this crisis, just as that this constant heckling is not impressive to the we had to take difficult decisions with the banks over a people of this country. It conveys a very bad impression year ago, we take difficult decisions now but in a way of the House. Stop it. that reduces the deficit but does not damage our economy at the same time. Yes, all of us need to be fully engaged Mr. Darling: Growth is absolutely essential for our in that, and all of us are. What we have heard from the long-term future. The hon. Gentleman also barely shadow Chancellor today is long on politics and very mentioned unemployment and the need to take measures short on good ideas. to get unemployment down. He did not say whether or not he supports the measures that I have put before the Dr. Vincent Cable (Twickenham) (LD): I thank the House today to get people back into jobs and to make Chancellor for sending me his statement, even though it sure that people do not find that a short spell on benefit was missing 43 paragraphs. ends up being a lifetime in long-term unemployment. He did not say where he stands on our priorities of What is clear from the statement is that the economic ensuring that we protect the front-line NHS, ensuring position of the country is still very grave. We know now that we have got schools for the future and making sure that we are 5 per cent. poorer than we were a year ago, that we have got enough policemen on the beat. He says and that the Government estimates of borrowing for absolutely nothing about that. this year and next year are higher than even they had forecast. What we needed was a national economic Fundamentally, yes there is a big issue before us. plan, but what we have got is an election manifesto. Because of this downturn, we, like every other country in the world, face much higher borrowing than we There have been genuinely great Labour Chancellors would like. It has resulted in debt increases, but the in the past—Stafford Cripps and Roy Jenkins, among question is this: at what rate and how quickly do we others—but they would not have been obsessed, as the reduce that borrowing and debt, and how do we do Chancellor is today, with drawing tactical dividing lines. that? Perhaps the hon. Gentleman should have a word There are small things that one welcomes, such as with the Leader of the Opposition, who seems to be initiatives on jobs for young people, on technology and talking to himself just now. On Sunday, when the Leader on environmental policies. This is a good Budget for of the Opposition was speaking to the BBC and was bingo and boilers; I think that is what it boils down to. asked about our proposals to reduce the debt, he said: The underlying problem, however, is that for the past “I don’t think it is fast enough.” decade or more, the British Government have been On Tuesday—another day, another audience—when he over-dependent for their revenues on the fickle fortunes was asked about reducing deficit, he replied: of the banking industry. We have had an economy that has been built on sand—on the assumption that property “Of course, there is a danger, if you do too much too early, you would choke off some demand.” prices rise for ever, and on consumer borrowing—and the economy is now being rebuilt on sand, because the That is precisely the argument between the two political only signs of real recovery that we have are rising house parties. Certainly on Tuesday, the Leader of the Opposition prices and booming bank profits at a time when industry seemed to agree with our point of view that, yes we have is continuing to decline. to reduce the deficit, but we have to do it in a way that is orderly and does not damage demand. Let me speak specifically about the banks. The Chancellor has clearly been provoked into action by the extraordinarily Of course, that comes to the heart of the problem stupid and arrogant behaviour of the RBS board. What that the Conservatives have. They cannot tell us what he has come up with, to the extent that it is intelligible, action they would take. Not once in the 10 minutes that is an extraordinarily complex mechanism. Will he explain he spoke did the shadow Chancellor actually say what precisely how he will stop the banks converting their he would do either in protecting services or in reducing bonuses into basic salary? He talks about avoidance debt. Indeed, all we do know is that he is committed to measures, but how is he going to stop that? Will he give taking action more quickly. He gave the impression just us a worked example of what it means in reality? now that he wanted to cut the deficit, perhaps in the next Parliament, but if we do that we will end up having Let us take as an example Mr. Bob Diamond of to cut something like £25 billion more. If that is his Barclays Capital, who has just walked away with £27 million policy, he will have to spell out where he is going to take on the back of a taxpayer guarantee. How would that that money from. Who would feel the brunt if that be affected by the Government’s proposal? Surely it money were taken away? makes more sense, as I think the Prime Minister entertained when he went to the G20 summit, not to try to tax The shadow Chancellor went on to criticise us for bankers separately from other high earners, but to have having a lack of aspiration. Both of us expect to be a levy on bank profits because the banks depend on a judged—the British public will choose—but I have to taxpayer guarantee. Until they can be broken up and tell him that I represent a constituency in which people can stand on their own two feet, they have to pay for the are aspirational. They want to get on and they want to insurance that the taxpayer provides. do the best they can for themselves and their families, but they honestly do not see that the first priority in that The heart of the Chancellor’s statement was about is giving a tax break to a tiny minority of the top estates the borrowing requirement and the long-term problem in this country. I really think it is time that he rethought of the structural deficit. What we needed was a clear, his priorities. We believe that public services help many long-term way of dealing with this problem. What we people in this country. People accept that they have to had, to the extent to which we can understand the early be paid for and they accept the value of hospitals and of statement that he made, was that there is an increase in 377 Pre-Budget Report9 DECEMBER 2009 Pre-Budget Report 378 tax—approximately £6 billion to £7 billion a year—much Mr. Darling: I disagree with the hon. Gentleman. We of which will be in the form of national insurance. Let have set out a plan to reduce the country’s deficit over a us be clear about what will now happen. Any worker four-year period, and I believe that that will be done in earning more than £7,000 a year will pay 32 per cent. a sensible way that will not damage public services or marginal income tax and 12 per cent. national insurance the fabric of the economy. Yes, the settlement will be contributions. All the money raised in additional tax tighter and it will be difficult, but I am surprised that will go to public spending, and none will be used to pay the hon. Gentleman did not set out some of his proposals down the borrowing requirement and the deficit. That in relation to universities, for example. is a complete distortion of the priorities that the I think that choices will have to be made, but I believe Government should surely have. that people will recognise that, with public spending In respect of timing, it is obviously right that we heed having grown over the last 10 years, we can proceed the advice of the Governor of the Bank of England and with a much tighter settlement than we have had in the others that, if the economy is continuing to stagnate, it past. However, as I said earlier, I believe that we can makes no sense to embark on rapid cuts in public protect front-line services at the same time. expenditure and reducing the deficit. That is the problem I listened to what the hon. Gentleman had to say that the Conservatives have got themselves into, but it is about tax. He did not say what he would do, but that is also right that, if there is rapid growth, the Government one of the luxuries of being on his Benches. I think that must get on with dealing with the deficit. What the using national insurance is a fair approach, and I said I Government have assumed today is that there will be would take steps to make sure that people earning high rates of economic growth—3.5 per cent. in 2011—but under £20,000 would not be affected. what is the basis for that assumption? The hon. Gentleman asked about growth. I have set out my forecasts, which are not dissimilar to those of It is a little like the old story of the economist who is the Bank of England. Indeed, I remember that after the given a tin of food to eat and says, “Let’s assume the last Budget he and many others criticised my forecast existence of a tin opener.” The Government are saying, that the economy would grow by between 1 and 1.5 per “Let’s assume economic growth.” Why? Have they made cent. next year, whereas the consensus among most any estimate of the very real risk that the economy will commentators now is that that is broadly right. revert to a double-dip recession or continue to stagnate? What is the risk of those things happening—is it one in The hon. Gentleman asked about the financial services 10, one in five, or one in two? Surely we cannot operate industry. Yes, it has been a major part of our economy. I on the basis of a single-line forecast that is based am not sure where he stands on these things nowadays, entirely on optimism and very little else. but I believe that it will remain an important part of the economy. It employs 1 million people in this country To the extent that we can understand what the and, properly supervised and regulated, it is important. Government are doing about cutting public spending However, I think—and I think the hon. Gentleman growth, it comes down to two items. Perhaps the Chancellor thinks so too—that people responsible for banks should will confirm that. One of the items involves hitting bear it in mind that they have had a lot of public low-paid workers by cutting the proposal for personal support, directly or indirectly, and that their priority allowances, which I understand has been postponed or should be to rebuild the banks’ capital. He asked how deferred. The other is the approach adopted to public the system would work. He seemed to hint that he sector pay. On the assumption that the Govt have made, would have imposed a windfall tax on the banks. I think a 1 per cent. increase for a low-paid manual worker is a that would be a mistake, because it would amount to real cut. Of course, it is worth 10 times as much for a telling the banks to build up their capital position while permanent secretary on £150,000 a year as it is to at one and the same time taking the money away from a worker on £15,000 a year. If there is to be restraint—and them. Some of the banks that might be affected by such we have argued for it—surely it should be a flat sum an approach are those that, arguably, did a little bit less across the board. We have argued that it should be £8 a to contribute to some of the problems in the first place. week for everyone. That is the heart of the issue of The way that the system will work is quite simple—there fairness, which the Chancellor claimed was at the heart will be a levy of 50 per cent. on bonuses of more than of his statement. £25,000, and there will be anti-avoidance measures. The Of course it is right that we should be concerned with hon. Gentleman asked what will happen if people get fairness in the tax system and in public spending priorities. the money paid in income, and the answer is relatively The hon. Member for Tatton (Mr. Osborne) keeps simple—they will pay income tax on it. That is how the saying that we are all in this together, but that is simply system operates and, unless he is saying that there not right: we are not all in this together, as some people should be an incomes policy for all bankers, which have done much better than others. would be difficult to operate, I disagree with him. The Government’s claims to fairness are absolutely The hon. Gentleman said that I was searching for bogus. The Chancellor’s big, totemic step of the last tactical dividing lines; I have rarely been accused of year was to introduce a 50 per cent. tax rate, but he has doing that. I think that the divisions between us and the delivered a gift-wrapped invitation to tax avoidance by Conservatives, and between us and the Liberal party, keeping capital gains tax at 18 per cent. He had an are perfectly there to be seen. We do not have to go opportunity today to deal with that, but he has done looking for them. absolutely nothing about it. Unless there is fairness, the John McFall (West Dunbartonshire) (Lab/Co-op): It public will not accept the fact that, for the next five is right for the Government to use this pre-Budget years or longer, there is going to be a real hard slog for report to maintain investment in the economy. The the economy. The Chancellor has not set out the way private sector is on its knees at the moment because of forward that we need. the banking catastrophe that we are experiencing. It is 379 Pre-Budget Report9 DECEMBER 2009 Pre-Budget Report 380

[John McFall] wrong, will the Chancellor pass all his assumptions and proposals on efficiency savings to the NAO for independent only the Government, through the help that they are audit? giving to business and individuals, who are keeping the economy going. Mr. Darling: I do not accept the general premise However, given the need in the future to cut the fiscal underlying the hon. Gentleman’s question that efficiencies deficit, increase capital liquidity requirements for financial cannot be made. For example, we managed to reduce institutions, unwind the £200 billion of quantitative the amount of money that we were paying to drug easing and eventually to move interest rates away from companies from the NHS. I remember from my time at zero, will the Chancellor consider further developing a the Department for Work and Pensions that we reduced macro-economic framework to deal with those issues? the number of middle management employees to ensure that the then Benefits Agency, which formed part of Mr. Darling: My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. Jobcentre Plus, was more efficient. So I simply do not The priority is to deal with the aftermath of this downturn accept the premise that underlies his question. and I set out proposals for that. I will continue to take every step possible to ensure that we get the deficit Mr. Michael Meacher (Oldham, West and Royton) down. It is absolutely a prerequisite for making sure (Lab): Does my right hon. Friend really believe that a that we have sustainable long-term growth in the future. one-off, short-term bonus tax is sufficient to achieve his It is something that must remain a priority for the aim of permanently changing City culture? How does Chancellor at all times. he justify the prospect of cutting public services and still not imposing a windfall tax on banks, when those bank profits have been fortuitously inflated by quantitative Several hon. Members rose— easing, by the offsetting of £80 billion of past losses against tax, by the elimination of rivals in the financial Mr. Speaker: Order. Twenty-two hon. and right hon. crash and by a vastly expanded market in Government Members are seeking to catch my eye. As usual, I bond sales? should like to accommodate everybody, and therefore I reiterate my usual appeal and exhortation that each Mr. Darling: My right hon. Friend should bear it in hon. Member ask a single brief supplementary question, mind that if—when—banks return to profitability, which and of course that the Chancellor of the Exchequer must be one of the objectives in the longer term, they provide an economical reply. pay corporation tax on those revenues. On tax and bonuses, I want to try to get banks to think long and Mr. John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): Why has hard about paying out large sums when, frankly, they growth been non-existent so far, when the Chancellor’s ought to be building up their strength. I have said often policy is meant to be about promoting growth? enough in the House that I am not against the payment of bonuses in themselves—they can be a good way to Mr. Darling: There has been no growth in the last reward and incentivise people—but if banks are going year for perfectly obvious reasons. Because of the crisis to pay those very high bonuses, it is right that the in the banking sector that has affected this and every taxpayer should see some benefit from that. other country in the world, there has been a very severe downturn. I would have thought that that was very Mr. Brooks Newmark (Braintree) (Con): How much obvious. worse off will constituents of mine who earn £25,000 be as result of the Chancellor’s national insurance increase? Hazel Blears (Salford) (Lab): Politics is clearly the language of priorities, and I am delighted that my right Mr. Darling: I said in my statement that, yes, national hon. Friend has set out this Labour Government’s insurance will go up, and that is necessary because we priorities of supporting young people into jobs and want to ensure the services that the hon. Gentleman’s apprenticeships. That stands in stark contrast to priorities constituents and mine receive. If they are unfortunate of the Conservatives who have chosen to benefit the enough to go to hospital or they go to see their doctors 3,000 wealthiest estates in the country. or schools, they recognise that they get a benefit from that. I certainly do not think that they want to go back Will my right hon. Friend ensure that his measures to to the days of the past, when a lot of those services were support apprenticeships are directed to communities very seriously run down. like mine in Salford where, in the last Tory recession, 75 per cent. of young people were without jobs and Mr. Richard Caborn (Sheffield, Central) (Lab): I welcome hope? We need these measures to build on our success. the statement, particularly for the wealth-creating sectors and manufacturing up north—in 1997, we inherited Mr. Darling: Yes is the short answer. It is important industrial deserts, particularly in areas such as South that we carry on expanding the number of apprenticeships Yorkshire—and the investment has been made by Rolls- because, not just now when unemployment is clearly Royce in the Advanced Manufacturing Park. May I too high but also in the future, we will need qualified prevail on the Chancellor to consider the short-termism people with the skills that our economy needs. of the marketplace? Indeed, I think that everyone appreciates that the statement today tries to tackle some Mr. Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): The previous of the problems, but long-term investment in wealth Gershon efficiency savings were found, after independent creation and our manufacturing is not four or five audit by the National Audit Office, to be largely unproven. years, but five, 10 and 15 years. I hope that that is borne Given that, it is difficult to believe that these new in mind and that the Treasury and the shareholding efficiency gains will be backed by evidence. To prove me Executive will get that change of culture. 381 Pre-Budget Report9 DECEMBER 2009 Pre-Budget Report 382

Mr. Darling: My right hon. Friend represents a part Dr. Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab): of the country that was at the wrong end of the 1980s I thank the Chancellor for listening to those of us who recession. On many visits to his part of the country, I were pressing for an extension to the free school meals have found it impressive to see how former coke works programme, because it is an important measure in and coal mining areas have been completely transformed helping to reduce child poverty, but does he agree that it and, on the same sites, high-tech industries and cutting-edge is quite wrong for the Liberal Democrats to lecture us developments in advanced engineering employing a lot on reducing child poverty when the first thing that Hull, of people. He is absolutely right to say that we need to which is a Liberal Democrat-controlled council, did encourage that not just for the next five or 10 years, but was to withdraw its free school meals programme? for decades after that. Mr. Darling: These things sometimes happen with the Julia Goldsworthy (Falmouth and Camborne) (LD): Liberal Democrats, but I am grateful to my hon. Friend The Chancellor applauded the flexibility of working for what she said about our proposals. tax credits, but no additional support has been offered to two of my constituents who work in a factory and Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): I fully recognise whose hours have been reduced to a three-day week the constraints placed on the Chancellor in balancing since July. They are not entitled to working tax credits, and restoring public finances, while not damaging economic redundancy pay or jobseeker’s allowance. Was it not an growth. One concern, however, for devolved omission not to include support for them in the pre-Budget Administrations is to have some certainty about report? Government spending plans for 2011 and beyond. When will he be able to give that assurance? When looking at Mr. Darling: We have tried over a number of years to those plans, will he bear in mind the House of Lords improve the help that we give to people who lose their report that has indicated that Wales and Northern jobs or go on to short-term working. Yes, we are always Ireland have greater needs than other parts of the looking to see how we can improve that, but it is partly United Kingdom? constrained by what we can do. The hon. Member for Twickenham (Dr. Cable), who speaks for the Liberals from the Front Bench, rather gave the impression that Mr. Darling: I hope that, one way or another, the he wants the Government to spend less rather than Government have recognised Northern Ireland’s special more, but the hon. Lady is absolutely right to say that needs, not just in the regular spending rounds but, as we need to ensure that we help people to stay in work. the hon. Gentleman well knows, in other discussions as well. As I have said, the Barnett formula will apply to Mr. Frank Field (Birkenhead) (Lab): May I compliment the announcements that I have made today where the Chancellor of the Exchequer on how he has acquitted appropriate in the usual way. All the devolved himself not only today but for the whole period that he Administrations know the spending that they are getting has been Chancellor? It has served the public interest for the rest of the spending review, but spending reviews well. Given that the Bank of England will shortly cease have been fixed for three years in the past to give some to print money to buy Government debt and that the certainty. I think that people will accept just now that, Government will have to go into the real world to raise given what is happening, it is not possible to set out that money, what will be the impact over the coming definitely what spending might be in three or five years’ year on long-term interest rates, given what he has time, but they have that certainty for the next year, announced on public expenditure levels for the same which will help them. period? Jeremy Corbyn (Islington, North) (Lab): I note that Mr. Darling: First, I am grateful to my right hon. the Chancellor’s statement included the welcome reference Friend. On quantitative easing, the Monetary Policy to the fact that anyone who moves off benefits into Committee will have to reach a decision on when it work will not be worse off. Will he please explain how stops that work and then on how it unwinds what it is that will affect people who live in expensive private doing. It is very conscious of the fact that it needs to do rented accommodation and receive housing benefit at that in an orderly way that complements what the the moment, but lose all or most of their housing Government are doing. Indeed, I think that I made it benefit on going into work and thus end up considerably clear when I announced the scheme that there will be worse off and, in extreme cases, can even be rendered some discussion when it is wound down to ensure that homeless as a result? that is done in the right way. Mr. Darling: I understand that concern, and I can tell Mr. Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): The OECD my hon. Friend that the Secretary of State for Work believes that early and ambitious fiscal consolidation and Pensions will make a statement fairly shortly and will strengthen the recovery. Why does the Chancellor give more details, but we are all very aware of his point think that it is wrong and he is right? about the withdrawal rates of benefits.

Mr. Darling: Yes, but the OECD is not arguing for Dr. Andrew Murrison (Westbury) (Con): The Chancellor going far faster and therefore damaging jobs and the has announced increased funding for current operations, fabric of the economy. I can assure the hon. Gentleman but after the increased costs of the redundancy of kit that—whether it is the OECD, or the International and the uplift in troops announced by the Prime Minister Monetary Fund of which 186 countries are members—none earlier this month, what will be left for the repair and of them support the sort of approach that the Conservatives replacement of our inadequate helicopter fleet, which is are advocating. putting at risk the lives of our servicemen? 383 Pre-Budget Report9 DECEMBER 2009 Pre-Budget Report 384

Mr. Darling: First, as I said in the statement, we are budget for growth, but this was not a budget for growth. making available further sums to the Ministry of Defence. This pre-Budget statement specifically confirmed the The Secretary of State for Defence will in due course set cut announced earlier this year in both the resource and out how the MOD is reorganising what it does to ensure the capital departmental expenditure limit for Scotland. that it can provide support, particularly on the front Why did the Chancellor not take the advice of even his line. I have said often enough before that it is important own colleagues in Scotland and have a further year’s if we send troops into Afghanistan that they are properly reprofiling of capital expenditure to protect the recovery, equipped and supported. That means some reprioritisation instead of ensuring that the cuts come now and weaken in the MOD. I think that the hon. Gentleman would Scotland’s ability to recover? accept that, and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will be able to say something about it. Mr. Darling: I say this to the hon. Gentleman: yes, we did bring capital spending forward, and the situation in Rob Marris (Wolverhampton, South-West) (Lab): Does Scotland would have been infinitely better had the the Chancellor agree with the leader of the Conservative Scottish National party not turned its face against party that the problem is big Government and that continuing to work with the private sector. The SNP there was too much regulation, or does the Chancellor had a vanity project to try to replace the private finance agree with me that Government have a big role to play initiative, and as a result, as I know from my constituency in protecting people and that the banking problems and others, the only things being built under the schools came about from too little regulation? building programme, for example, are schools that the previous Labour Administration authorised. The Mr. Darling: Despite being posed such a difficult nationalists should have a long hard look at what they question, I am probably more on my hon. Friend’s side have done in Scotland over the past two years, because than the Leader of the Opposition’s. The problem was in just about every single case where they made a partly caused by regulation that was not tough enough, promise, they have failed to deliver it, partly because of but partly caused also by the fact that too many at the dogma and partly because they have simply over-promised top of some banks clearly did not know what they were and overreached. It is no wonder that people are beginning doing. There was a failure of corporate governance as to see through what the nationalists actually do. well as a failure in regulation. That situation has undoubtedly had consequences, however, and every Ms Dari Taylor (Stockton, South) (Lab): I warmly Government in the world have had to deal with those welcome the Chancellor’s announcement of the innovation consequences. The question before us now is, how do investment fund for research into the development of we manage to deal with that situation in an orderly the green economy, which is led significantly by Teesside’s way? chemical process industry. Will One NorthEast administer that fund, giving local companies an easy opportunity Mr. Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): The Chancellor to get advice and access to it? If not, which Department was incorrect in saying that when the banks return to will administer the fund and from what date? profit, they will pay corporation tax, because there will be £80 billion of losses to set off first. Does he not think that the citizens of the United Kingdom will be amazed Mr. Darling: I understand that the Secretary of State by the fact that banks will be making billions of pounds for Business, Innovation and Skills will make the situation in profit and not paying a single penny of corporation clear very shortly. The regional development agency, tax? One NorthEast, will of course be closely involved in everything that we do in relation to Teesside. It is Mr. Darling: Of course I am aware of the tax treatment important that Jobcentre Plus, the regional development of losses, but the hon. Gentleman will be aware of the agency and other public bodies all work very closely way in which tax losses are treated for capital adequacy together, but I shall ensure that my hon. Friend is given purposes, so the situation is a little more complicated that information by the Secretary of State. than the one he describes. Richard Younger-Ross (Teignbridge) (LD): I congratulate Helen Southworth (Warrington, South) (Lab): Will the Chancellor on adopting the proposal that I included my right hon. Friend make sure that services to safeguard in an early-day motion on the boiler scrappage scheme and protect vulnerable children who are at risk are a and on also adopting an EDM proposal for an effective priority and receive investment? 75p rate on banker bonuses. However, if such a rate is to be effective, measures to stop avoidance by increasing Mr. Darling: I know that our right hon. Friend the salaries or rolling over pay to a following year will have Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families is to be in place. What proposals does he have to ensure very concerned about that issue, as should we all be. It is that such avoidance cannot happen? If he cannot do very important that children who are at risk are properly that, he will be far better off sticking with the proposals looked after, and I very much hope that we can continue made by my hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham to do that. (Dr. Cable).

Stewart Hosie (Dundee, East) (SNP): Even if the Mr. Darling: I do not know whether the proposals deficit falls as planned, based on pretty heroic growth from the hon. Member for Twickenham are to be found forecasts, the national debt will continue to rise, on the in an EDM, but it was not clear to me what his Treasury calculation, to £1.7 trillion, which is 91 per proposals actually were. Anti-avoidance measures will cent. of gross domestic product. That is in the Green be introduced as part of the Finance Bill. On the other Book. The Chancellor is right to say that we need a measures that the hon. Member for Teignbridge (Richard 385 Pre-Budget Report9 DECEMBER 2009 Pre-Budget Report 386

Younger-Ross) has proposed, I cannot claim to have justification there can ever be for Welsh independence. I read the EDMs, but I am glad that he supports the cannot see how on earth it could benefit that country. policies. Justine Greening (Putney) (Con): The return to growth Mr. Rob Wilson (Reading, East) (Con): Will the that is forecast in later years is predicated on consumers Chancellor confirm that manufacturing has contracted generating more GDP growth than they have in the more under this Government than it did under the past. The Chancellor suggests that 2 per cent. of GDP Thatcher Government in the 1980s? growth will be driven by private consumption, but between 2000 and 2007 only 1.75 per cent. of GDP Mr. Darling: I am glad to hear that there is common growth was driven by consumer consumption. Does he ground on this issue, because, certainly in my first think that wise, given that consumers are paying down 10 years in this House, it was not accepted that we lost their debt? Why does he think that he should rely on far more manufacturing than perhaps we should have in consumers backtracking, when they have worked out the early 1980s. I think that manufacturing in this that they have a debt crisis even if the Government have country, despite the downturn and despite the difficulties, not? is well placed for the future. We have a lot of manufacturing of which we can be genuinely proud, and in the past Mr. Darling: I think that many members of the public 10 years, through our investment in science and our will be reducing the amount of debt that they carry, support for universities, we have seen a lot more projects and that is a good thing. However, it is also true that come out of universities and develop for the future. people can at the same time maintain their spending, Much of what I had to say this afternoon was about and some people increase their spending. Of course, as encouraging such growth in the future. The policy of unemployment starts to fall and employment starts to the hon. Member for Tatton (Mr. Osborne) is not to grow, more people will be in work and more people will reverse the situation at all, but, it seems, to make it be able to spend their money on goods and services in worse. this country.

Adam Price (Carmarthen, East and Dinefwr) (PC): Mr. Andrew Pelling (Croydon, Central) (Ind): As In the month when the Holtham commission, which the politicians are to blame, like bankers, perhaps the top Labour-led Administration in the National Assembly 25 per cent. of our salaries should also be taxed at for Wales appointed, has reported that the people of 90 per cent. However, the Chancellor mentioned in his Wales are losing out to the tune of £400 million a year speech a £550 million yield from the special tax levy, as a result of the Barnett formula, why did not the which is the equivalent of £1.1 billion in paid bonuses. Chancellor use this opportunity—perhaps the final Is he implying that the measure is a ban on bonuses? opportunity for some time for a Labour Chancellor—to Otherwise, bankers will either redefine themselves as implement the proposal for a needs-based formula and working for hedge funds or non-bank banks, or domicile finally deliver justice to the people of Wales and, as we themselves outside the UK to receive such bonuses. heard from the hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson), to Northern Ireland as well? Mr. Darling: The figure I mentioned is our estimate of what we will get after behavioural changes in terms Mr. Darling: I believe that, certainly over the past of both payment of bonuses and, I suspect, people 12 years, Wales has seen a significant increase in funding saying, “Okay, I will take my wage in salary.” As I said because of the increases in spending on health, education, earlier, the problem is not bonuses in themselves; the science and research. Wales has benefited from that— problem is when we start paying excessive bonuses or tremendously so. If I have a disagreement with the rewarding people for doing things that they really should nationalists, it is that I fail to understand what possible not do. That is where we get the problems. 387 9 DECEMBER 2009 388

Points of Order Child Poverty Bill [Relevant Document: The Twenty-eighth Report from 2.9 pm the Joint Committee on Human Rights of Session 2008-09, Mr. Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): On a point Legislative Scrutiny: Child Poverty Bill, HC 1114.] of order, Mr. Speaker. I know how keen you are for this Consideration of Bill House to hear news from the Government first. In the past, when a Budget statement has been made—this is, New Clause 1 effectively, an autumn Budget—MPs have been sacked for leaking the information to the media first. Clearly, the BBC and Sky had important knowledge relating to THE RELATIVE LOW INCOME AFTER HOUSING COSTS this Budget, so will you look into this to see whether TARGET there has been a leak and what can be done about it? ‘(1) The relative low income after housing costs target is that less than 10 per cent. of children who live in qualifying households live in households that fall within the relevant income Mr. Speaker: It is not, of course, a Budget. I note, group. however, the very important point that the hon. Gentleman (2) For the purposes of this section, a household falls within has raised. I know that there has been a considerable the relevant income group, in relation to a financial year, if its amount of speculation, but I would be reluctant to say equivalised net income for the financial year is less than 60 per more than that. I am happy to reflect on the matter. I cent. of median equivalised net household income after housing know how assiduous the hon. Gentleman is in these costs for the financial year.’.—(Steve Webb.) important matters. Brought up, and read the First time.

Greg Mulholland (Leeds, North-West) (LD): On a 2.12 pm point of order, Mr. Speaker. I need to bring to the attention of the House a separate, very important and Steve Webb (Northavon) (LD): I beg to move, That worrying matter. Enterprise Inns is Britain’s most notorious the clause be read a Second time. pubco. Its reputation is shown by its incredible litigiousness. It has tried to sue local media and national media, and Mr. Speaker: With this it will be convenient to discuss has indeed threatened hon. Members of this House. I the following: new clause 2—The reduction in the causes do not know if you are aware of this, but Enterprise of poverty targets— Inns has sought by way of legal threat and intimidation ‘The Secretary of State shall make regulations setting out to prevent the Business and Enterprise Committee from reduction in the causes of poverty targets.’. carrying out its scrutiny of the activities of the pub New clause 3—2010 Target— company— ‘(1) The Secretary of State must, before the end of the period of three months beginning with the day on which the Act is Mr. Speaker: Order. I have listened very carefully to passed, publish and lay before Parliament a report setting out an what the hon. Gentleman has said, which is certainly a assessment of progress made towards meeting the 2010 target. matter of the highest importance to him and to many (2) The 2010 target is that in the financial year beginning with others. However, I have to say to him at this stage that if 1 April 2010, fewer than 1.7 million children live in households he has a complaint about a breach of the privilege of that fall within the relevant income group as defined by section the House, that is a matter about which, in the first 2(2).’. instance, he should come to me, or it is open to him to Amendment 1, in clause 1, page 1, line 7, at end write to me, but he should not in the first instance raise insert— it on the Floor of the House. Those options are open to ‘(b) the relative low income after housing costs target in the hon. Gentleman. If he wishes to pursue the matter section [The relative low income after housing costs with me in one or other of the ways that I have suggested, target],’. I will be all agog to hear what he has to say. Amendment 23, page 1, line 10, at end insert— ‘(e) the reductions in the causes of poverty targets contained in regulations made by the Secretary of BILL PRESENTED State under section [The reduction in the causes of poverty targets].’. FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY Amendment 33, in clause 6, page 3, line 9, at end Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) insert— Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, supported by the ‘(ba) the circumstances in which a child living in Prime Minister, Ms Harriet Harman, Mr. Liam Byrne, communal accommodation may be regarded as living Mr. Stephen Timms, Sarah McCarthy-Fry and Ian in a qualifying household;’. Pearson, presented a Bill to make provision for and in Amendment 2, page 3, line 15, after ‘costs’, insert connection with the imposition of duties for securing ‘except when calculating household income for the purposes of sound public finances. section [The relative low income after housing costs target] (the Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time relative low income after housing costs target)’. tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 13) with explanatory Amendment 3, page 3, line 20, after ‘5’, insert notes (Bill 25-EN). ‘and section [The relative low income after housing costs target]’. Amendment 34, page 3, line 22, at end insert— ‘(4A) Before making regulations under subsections 1(a) and 1(ba), the Secretary of State must request the advice of the Commission as to what statistical surveys can reasonably be expected to be undertaken.’. 389 Child Poverty Bill9 DECEMBER 2009 Child Poverty Bill 390

Amendment 4, in clause 8, page 4, line 30, after ‘5’, Steve Webb: A wry smile crosses our faces when it is insert announced that this Bill is the main business of the day, ‘and section [The relative low income after housing costs target]’. but in fact it is, in the sense that child poverty is a crucial issue. That view is certainly shared by all those who Amendment 24, page 4, line 34, at end insert— served on the Committee that considered the Bill. ‘(iii) describe the progress that the Secretary of State considers needs to be made in dealing with the New clause 1 arises from the discussions that we had causes of poverty in order to meet the targets in in Committee about the most appropriate method of sections 2 to 5.’. measuring poverty. Hon. Members will know that there Amendment 5, page 4, line 43, after ‘5’, insert are in the Bill four measures or targets relating to poverty, which combine various facets of income, material ‘and section [The relative low income after housing costs target]’. deprivation, persistence of poverty, and relative and Amendment 6, in clause 9, page 5, line 14, after ‘5’, absolute poverty. Clearly, it is welcome that the Bill does insert not settle on a single definition but recognises that ‘and section [The relative low income after housing costs target]’. poverty is multi-faceted and that one statistic does not Amendment 7, in clause 10, page 6, line 3, after ‘5’, do justice to the whole problem. insert In Committee, we discussed the most appropriate ‘and section [The relative low income after housing costs target]’. treatment of housing costs. My hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, West (John Barrett) and I proposed Amendment 8, page 6, line 15, after ‘5’, insert that, for the purpose of income measures, we should ‘and section [The relative low income after housing costs target]’. measure income after the deduction of housing costs. Amendment 9, page 6, line 25, after ‘5’, insert One of the arguments that the Treasury Minister who ‘and section [The relative low income after housing costs target]’. responded to our proposal made against it was that replacing the before-housing-costs measure would cause Amendment 10, in clause 11, page 7, line 13, after ‘5’, a problem, because we would not have comparable insert statistics for use in international comparisons. In other ‘and section [The relative low income after housing costs target]’. words, if we got rid of the before-housing-costs measure Amendment 11, page 7, line 26, after ‘5’, insert and imposed an after-housing-costs measure, our statistics ‘and section [The relative low income after housing costs target]’. would not line up with those from other EU countries and the OECD. Amendment 12, page 7, line 37, after ‘5’, insert The point of debates in Committee is to reflect on ‘and section [The relative low income after housing costs target]’. such issues and then to come back on Report with Amendment 13, in clause 13, page 8, line 29, after ‘5’, revised amendments, and that is what we have done in insert this case. Rather than suggest that we replace the before- ‘and section [The relative low income after housing costs target]’. housing-costs measure with an after-housing-costs measure, Amendment 14, in clause 14, page 9, line 14, at end we now suggest in new clause 1 that we do not replace insert— the four existing targets but add a fifth—income after housing costs. That definition will be familiar to the ‘(b) the percentage of children living in qualifying House. It relates to information that is published regularly households in the United Kingdom in the target year in the “Households Below Average Income” statistics, who were living in households that fell within the relevant income group for the purposes of section so it requires no additional statistical work. The figures [The relative low income after housing costs target] are already there, but they would be given the same (Relative low income after housing costs target);’. force as the other four targets in the Bill. Amendment 15, page 9, line 32, after ‘5’, insert I should say in passing that amendments 1 to 20 are consequential to the inclusion of new clause 1, so ‘and section [The relative low income after housing costs target]’. wherever the Bill lists the four targets, there would be a Amendment 16, page 9, line 34, after ‘5’, insert list of five. The wording of new clause 1 exactly mirrors ‘and section [The relative low income after housing costs target]’. the target relating to the before-housing-costs measure Amendment 17, in clause 16, page 10, line 12, after and would simply insert “after housing costs”. Another, ‘5’, insert slightly more involved, consequential change is that where the Bill says that certain things cannot be deducted, ‘and section [The relative low income after housing costs target]’. one of which is housing costs, it would have to state that Amendment 18, in clause 24, page 14, line 38, after that does not apply to the provisions of the new clause, ‘or’, insert under which housing costs would be deducted. ‘section [The relative low income after housing costs target] (Relative low income after housing costs target) or’. 2.15 pm Amendment 19, in schedule 2, page 20, line 9, after I have been reflecting on the arguments that the ‘5’, insert Government might use against making the change proposed ‘and section [The relative low income after housing costs target]’. in new clause 1. First, however, it is worth making the Amendment 20, page 21, line 23, at end insert— case for an after-housing-costs measure. We believe that there is added value in looking at people’s living standards ‘(b) the percentage of children living in qualifying after they have had to meet their housing costs, first and households in the United Kingdom in the renewed foremost because housing is a very large part of most target year who were living in households that fell within the relevant income group for the purposes of people’s budget and a very big determinant of their section [The relative low income after housing costs living standards. To look at people’s standard of living target] (Relative low income after housing costs without taking any account of whether they have high, target);’. low or next to no housing costs is to miss a very 391 Child Poverty Bill9 DECEMBER 2009 Child Poverty Bill 392 important part of the picture. Because it is such an and owns their house outright, and the other is on important determinant of living standards, the absence housing benefit and getting their rent paid in full. On from the Bill of an income measure that takes account the before-housing-costs measure, the person with the of housing costs is a significant omission. housing benefit is much better off than their neighbour because they have housing benefit, but after housing Lembit Öpik (Montgomeryshire) (LD): I strongly costs they are both in the same position because they support the new clause and my hon. Friend’s arguments just have their pension once they have met their housing for it. Does he agree that the proposal is particularly costs. Clearly, the measure we propose provides a fairer salient in low-income areas such as my constituency, assessment of relative living standards than saying that because many of my constituents cannot afford the the person on housing benefit is better off. Indeed, one basics after they have paid rent, for the simple reason could argue that the person who owns their house that rents have not come down with the recession, outright is better off, because they have an asset, from whereas in many cases incomes have declined? which one might impute an income. The before-housing- costs measure puts people the wrong way round in that Steve Webb: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for sense, so it is not an ideal definition. making that very important point. The Bill measures income, including housing benefits and so forth, but I mentioned in response to the intervention by my takes no account of the impact of housing costs coming hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire (Lembit out of that income. Many households are in poverty, Öpik) that poverty is greater after housing costs than and if one compares the statistics on income before before them. That is not a reason to put it in the figures, housing costs and after housing costs, the poverty rate but it demonstrates that, once income including housing is much higher on the after-housing-costs measure. It is benefit is measured, housing costs are seen to take up a interesting that he should raise that question, because bigger proportion of the incomes of the poor than of the general assumption is that taking account of housing the rich, which is an important facet of measuring costs is an urban issue that relates to big cities with high people’s poverty. housing costs, but it is clearly relevant in areas such as We want reliable measures over time. My hon. Friend his, where housing costs can also take a big part of mentioned the problem of rent inflation. It has been the people’s incomes. policy of successive Governments to deregulate social Housing costs are a big part of household budgets, rents, so they have risen far faster than inflation for and people often have quite limited choices in that many years. If we only use the before-housing-costs regard. It could be argued, “Well, if you have big measure, that makes people appear better off, because housing costs it’s because you live in a big house. You their housing benefit shoots up every time their rent have chosen a higher living standard, so why should we does. That seems perverse in the extreme. If we measure deduct your housing costs? That would be like deducting income after housing costs, we will strip out the effect of your caviar expenditure. You’ve chosen to spend more rental inflation, which, as he said, has been very significant. and you’re better off as a result, so we shouldn’t deduct There are strong reasons for having the additional target—it it.” However, the reality, particularly for many people in would give us a new lens through which to view child rural areas or others with low means, is that housing is poverty without taking away from any of the existing not one of those things that they shop around for, like measures, and it would catch an important facet of wondering what tin of beans to buy this week. People in poverty. poverty often have very constrained choices about housing, As I said, I have thought about the responses that so the level of housing expenditure is not discretionary Ministers might give. One might be, “Well, we can’t add in the way that spending on a luxury item would be. It another target to the Bill. We’ve got four targets, we really is a necessity, and people have very constrained can’t have five.” If they were to say, “We’ve got four choices and have to live with the consequences of making targets, we can’t have 99,” I would probably accept that, them. Assessing income after housing costs have been but we wish to add one additional target. Why do the met would give us another facet. I am not suggesting Government have four, and not three or two? Each that it is the only way of looking at things, but it is an target needs to stand on its own feet as an important additional way. indicator of poverty and give us new insights that we The second reason why this is important is that the would not get without it. That should be the test of regional impact of housing costs varies considerably, each target in Bill. As I said in Committee, I believe that and if we look only at income before housing costs, we the absolute low income target could go. If we could do not capture that. Obviously, on average, housing have only four, I would take that one out, but there costs will be substantially higher in London and certain seems no substantive reason why five good targets that other housing hotspot areas. One of the perverse aspects provide a more comprehensive measure of poverty are of the measure of income before housing costs is that it worse than four. It is a difference not of kind but of includes housing benefit. If that is the only measure we degree, and given the added value of the after-housing-costs have, we end up with the strange situation where somebody measures, the additional target is justified. with a huge rent that is being met wholly or largely by When we discussed the matter in Committee, Ministers housing benefit seems to be relatively well off because said, “Ah, yes, but housing is in the Bill. You don’t need all that housing benefit is included in their income, but to worry, it is already covered.” I apologise if I am no account is taken of the fact that it has an equal and running through the Minister’s bullet points for her. opposite cost on the other side of the equation. That bit The Bill does contain provisions on housing, such as the would never get measured under the Bill as it stands. material deprivation measure, which contains a few Let us take as an example two pensioner households questions about housing, but nothing that will capture living next door to each other, both with identical the cost of housing as a measure of income after pension income. One person has paid off their mortgage housing costs would. The difference between the poverty 393 Child Poverty Bill9 DECEMBER 2009 Child Poverty Bill 394 figures before and after housing costs is, as it says on the However, the most transient might not get picked up in tin, all to do with housing costs. They should not be the figures. It is incredibly difficult to think how one buried as a sub-factor in part of a measure. That is the might meld them into the statistics, so although it is problem. Although the material deprivation measure important that they are not treated as second-class has a few housing-related matters in it, there are also a children, I am not entirely sure how we can add them to lot of non-housing matters. It would be incredibly a measure based on household equivalent income. difficult to strip out details of housing costs and be Likewise, we discussed in Committee children who clear about whether they, rather than some other facet are in care. Their well-being is clearly crucial, but trying of material deprivation, were driving the figures. It will to measure the living standard of a child living in an be as plain as a pikestaff that housing costs are causing institution, for example, is very difficult. A child being the problem if we use figures for income after rather cared for in a private household, perhaps having been than before them. fostered, will be picked up in the normal statistical The Minister might say that housing costs are about surveys, but it is difficult to identify the living standards housing quality. I hope that I addressed that point of a child living in an institution whose meals are earlier. The two are not wholly uncorrelated, but they provided, but for whom there is no parental or household are not very well correlated. Higher housing costs are income that one can measure. It is difficult to know often the product of necessity and of the part of the whether their income is 50 or 70 per cent. of the country in which people live. Often, as many people median, or how they could be melded into a living who live in private rented accommodation would say, standard measure based on households. I am sure that they are not a good proxy for the quality of housing. my hon. Friend would accept that. The real question is Deducting housing costs and having both before and whether there should be another statistical target or after-housing-costs measures, so that one can assess whether we should give greater weight to the parts of their impact on the figures, therefore seems to us an the Bill that refer more broadly to socio-economic entirely sensible approach. disadvantage. I look forward to hearing his suggestions. Drawing those threads together, the reason why there New clause 1 need not divide us along party lines, is not just one target in the Bill is that child poverty is and I welcome the support that the hon. Member for multi-faced. The Government have alighted on four Regent’s Park and Kensington, North (Ms Buck) has targets, but they could have alighted on three or five. given it. She was a member of the Public Bill Committee Once one has accepted that there should be more than and is much respected on these issues, and she rightly one, having five rather than four does not seem to make believes that housing is a crucial aspect of living standards. a substantive difference, and there is huge added value I can understand why she would take that view as a in the after-housing-costs approach. London MP. I hope that all parties will support the new I shall briefly to address other amendments and new clause. I hope for a conciliatory response from the clauses in this group. I am sure that the hon. Member Minister, because I know that my noble Friends in for South-West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) will speak another place attach great importance to housing costs to new clause 2, which suggests that there should be and they will want to return to the matter if we cannot “reductions in the causes of poverty targets.” get a better measure into the Bill—one that would improve it and help the Bill to achieve the goal that we I had to read that several times to work out where the all share of ensuring that child poverty is abolished. pause came—I think it means reductions in the causes of poverty rather than in the targets. Clearly we should Mr. Frank Field (Birkenhead) (Lab): In speaking to examine the causes of poverty, not just the outcomes. this group of amendments, I hope to achieve two objectives. We discussed the matter in Committee, in the light of The first is to praise the Government for their determination which the hon. Gentleman has obviously refined the in setting the objective in the Bill. It is an audacious new clause. I look forward to hearing him make the case thing to do, and I do not want the debate to pass for it. New clause 3 argues for an assessment of progress without that being said. However, I also wish to raise on the 2010 target. We supported the idea in Committee some questions about the balance of the Government’s and anticipate doing so again. approach, not in the Bill but up to this point in their Amendments 33 and 34 were prompted by the discussions campaign to abolish child poverty. I shall question of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, and I believe whether they have been far too mechanical in seeing the that my hon. Friend the Member for Oxford, West and solution as coming largely from benefits rather than Abingdon (Dr. Harris) may be planning to speak to through trying to balance people’s immediate need for them. They raise some important points about who more money with an examination of the long-term counts as a child in a qualifying household and whether causes of poverty. I take new clause 2 to be about that there are two tiers of children in the Bill. There are matter. children who appear in the household surveys on which First, on a point of congratulation, no Government all the statistical data are based, and there are other in the post-war period, or indeed ever, have set the children who come under the Bill’s more general wording objective of abolishing poverty in the way that this about deprivation but who are not covered by the Government have. At the time they set that objective, I statistical targets. was Minister with responsibility for welfare reform, but I do not mean to be in any way critical of the Joint I learned about it from a television broadcast. That Committee, but in a sense it is easier to point out the suggested something about the relationship between the problem than to work out what one should do about it. two powers in Downing street and the rest of the The Committee referred to Gypsy and Traveller children, Administration, but I was pleased to read more recently some of whom are in the statistics because they live in that No. 11 was not even consulted before the objective households picked up in the surveys—for example, if was set in the famous Toynbee Hall speech by the then they are on local authority or private Traveller sites. Prime Minister. 395 Child Poverty Bill9 DECEMBER 2009 Child Poverty Bill 396

2.30 pm prepared to try to teach the nation that if one becomes The objective certainly marked this Government out a single-parent, or makes little opportunity of the 13 years from previous ones, but for most of our stewardship we of state investment in education and goes into an unskilled have thought of poverty—naturally enough—in material job, the probability is that one will be poor. terms, and of solutions in money terms. Therefore, the I was therefore disturbed that, when in the past whole effort of the Government’s engineering at the couple of days the Leader of the Opposition raised the bottom of the income scale has been to raise benefit question—he did so very carefully—of eliminating the levels disproportionately to other incomes, so that one discrimination against two-parent families, it was took children and their families across a poverty line. immediately read by some of the single-parent groups As far as one’s first moral responsibility of helping the as an attack on the status of single parents. I know they poor goes, who could fault the Government on that? have grounds for doing so, because when we were first However, at least two things have happened since. elected in ’97, we said we were going to abolish such First, the money has run out, even though the Chancellor discrimination, but we foolishly presented that in terms was not too willing to admit that in his earlier statement, of attacking single parents and reducing their income. and perhaps he will not do so for another year. Secondly, However, the proposals I mentioned were not to reduce the Government have engaged in the debate in a very the income of single-parent households, but to raise the responsible way, taking that crude initiative and broadening income of households with two parents. In that way, the it out. One sees that in the Bill. It is about not only children in such households would be equivalent to money, but what some of us in the House would refer to children in households in which only one parent earned. as causes. I rose to congratulate the Government on distinguishing Although I have not participated in a debate on the themselves as the first ever who decided they could, by Bill before, I have read reports of them, and I have been their means, change whether people lived in households struck by how they have been captured by Seebohm in poverty.Secondly, I rose to congratulate the Government Rowntree. He was the chocolate manufacturer’s son—his on broadening how they see the mechanisms by which father, Joseph Rowntree, made his name building up poverty is transmitted. They have moved—thank that great firm in York and elsewhere. His son made his goodness—from a rather crude definition and from name— concern only in money terms, and are beginning to look at the debate about the root causes of poverty, which I Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Michael Lord): Order. I am think we need to have in what remains of this Parliament reluctant to interrupt the right hon. Gentleman, but I and in the next. am not quite sure how far he is going to stray from new That is why the Government’s proposals for raising clause 1. I am prepared to allow a certain amount of the performance of our secondary schools are so important. latitude, but he will bear in mind that we have new We need to guarantee that practically every child leaves clauses and amendments before us. with minimum school-leaving requirements. Those requirements should not be made up by adding slightly Mr. Field: I thought we were taking all the clauses bogus vocational qualifications to five GCSEs including together, Mr. Deputy Speaker. English and maths. In the hard world in which the employer interprets such qualifications, children who Mr. Deputy Speaker: Yes we are, but a degree of have them will probably be condemned to poverty in precision is essential. adulthood, and their children with them. I also believe that we need to get over to younger Mr. Field: Of course it is. people that opting for single parenthood is not a desirable One thing Seebohm Rowntree did was list the issues life choice. Many have that inflicted upon them, but the that the Government are trying to deal with in the way we allow young people to make that decision Bill—in a sense, that underpins new clause 1 and the without spelling out what it means for them and their whole of the Government’s approach. At the turn of life chances, and more importantly for their children’s the last century, he asked why people were poor. He life chances, fails that next generation. It is not good listed low pay, being a single-parent household, enough for the pressure groups to wheel out upper-middle unemployment, sickness and old age, but he went on to class young single parents who are having a whale of a say that one should not read such things as the causes time and saying, “I’m so pleased I’m a young single of poverty, and that they are in fact manifestations of parent. I can’t tell you all the choices I have now I’ve got poverty. He said that if we want to look at the causes of all that over with,” and the rest of it. The young women poverty, we have to go much deeper into the big questions who follow that model in my constituency do not have about political economy. the bank balances to see them through. Therefore, I much welcome the fact that when the I affirm my congratulations to the Government on Government started to fan out in the Bill how they view their long period of stewardship and on staying with poverty, they got on to what I think we need to get on this issue. Perhaps a little later than I would have to—namely, looking at the deep, root causes of poverty thought, they have widened the debate beyond what in our society, with which amendments in this group Rowntree thought were the superficial causes to the deal. Indeed, I would argue that it is inconsistent for the root causes of poverty, which I welcome. Government to adopt such an approach to defining I put that down as a marker for the next Parliament— poverty and not to welcome the debate about the link hopefully some of us will be returned by the electorate. between children in poverty and one-parent households— The Government made their choice at a time of record Labour Members find it easier to link low pay in such public expenditure. In the next Parliament, there will be households to children in poverty. There seems to be record cuts in public expenditure. As Tawney said, when something inconsistent about our approach. We are not the great liners go down, who gets into the lifeboats is 397 Child Poverty Bill9 DECEMBER 2009 Child Poverty Bill 398 important. It is important for us to help to shape the it would advise the Government. I think that that debate about the priorities and to decide who gets into measure is essential. Indeed, my overriding criticism of those lifeboats when the age of big cuts in public the Bill is that it focuses purely on downstream income expenditure is really upon us. intervention and does not do enough at an early enough stage to address the causes of poverty. Andrew Selous (South-West Bedfordshire) (Con): As I am supported in that point by several commentators, always, it is a great pleasure to follow the right hon. not least by witnesses at the formal evidence sessions in Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Field) and, indeed, the Committee. For example, both Mike Brewer of the hon. Member for Northavon (Steve Webb), who ably Institute for Fiscal Studies and Donald Hirsch, a well introduced new clause 1. As the hon. Gentleman said, respected academic from the university of Loughborough, we touched on this issue in Committee and I understand were asked whether the Bill needs to address the longer-term where he is coming from. Indeed, in Committee I made causes of poverty in the early years, and they both said the point that families are primarily interested in the yes. Mike Brewer said: after housing costs income—how much money they “I wish that there were a broader range of indicators”. have left to spend on food, clothing, transport and so That is precisely what new clause 2 is seeking to introduce. on, to balance the weekly budget. That is the critical Neil O’Brien, another witness from Policy Exchange, amount for many families. spoke about the current set of targets driving public We do track that figure. In Prime Minister’s questions policy to earlier, the figure of 4 million children living in poverty “relentlessly...downstream intervention to give people income, was mentioned, and that is the after housing cost figure, rather than...tackle the causes.” rather than the before housing cost figure of 2.9 million. He spoke of it being necessary to align In Committee, my hon. Friends and I backed “your targets to your broader strategy”.——[Official Report, amendment 28, tabled by the hon. Gentleman, which Child Poverty Public Bill Committee, 22 October 2009; c. 101-104, would have removed clause 6(2) which prevents housing Q199 and 203.] costs from being deducted when calculating the net That is the central point. income of a household. We thought that that was overly prescriptive because it would tie the hands of the Child 2.45 pm Poverty Commission, which has not even been set up The Department for Work and Pensions used to go yet, when it came to take a view on housing costs. We some way along those lines. In its excellent “Opportunity were happy to back the hon. Gentleman on that for All” report, it published details of the number of amendment. children in workless households, teenage pregnancy, the As the hon. Gentleman has made clear, the households proportion of children in disadvantaged areas with a below average income series already publishes the figures good level of development, the number of children not for both before and after housing costs, and it will in education, employment or training, childhood obesity continue to do so. The Minister made that clear. I and other such factors. Bizarrely, it stopped producing assure the hon. Gentleman that we will pay careful that report in 2007. attention to the after housing costs figure. At 4 million, I quoted Mike Brewer’s evidence to the Committee, it is much higher than any of us would like. but he has not stopped considering the point. In a recent article entitled “What’s the point of the Child My concern about supporting new clause 1 is that we Poverty Bill?”, he wrote that already have four income targets in the Bill, as I said in “in my mind, the worrying aspect of the Bill is that it highlights Committee. I was grateful for the comments by the right income-based measures of child poverty over all other possible hon. Member for Birkenhead when he talked of the measures of child well-being. Although the Bill says that a importance of widening out the range of indicators and government strategy must tackle socio-economic disadvantage targets that we use to track our progress in reducing amongst children, the way we will know whether child poverty is poverty, which will of course always be measured in eradicated in 2020 will be determined by four measures of income income terms. We should have a range of targets in the poverty.” Bill that drive policy in the right direction. My concern He also points out that about new clause 1 is that that fifth income target would “there is a risk that politicians will always favour policy responses focus more on downstream intervention, whereas the with immediate and predictable impacts on the incomes of parents real need is to focus on the root causes of poverty—those over responses which mitigate the impact of poverty on children, factors that trap people in a life of poverty, about which or improve poor children’s well-being, or reduce the intergenerational transmission of child poverty (such as measures to tackle low the right hon. Gentleman rightly talked. In that respect, achievement amongst white boys in receipt of free school meals, I tabled new clause 2 and amendments 23 and 24. whose results at Key Stage 2 were recently revealed to be lower New clause 2 seeks to add a fifth target to the Bill, than all other ethnic groups).” just as the hon. Member for Northavon has tried to do, Mr. Gary Streeter (South-West Devon) (Con): I am that would deal specifically with reducing the causes of attracted by my hon. Friend’s approach, but does he poverty. I tabled a similar amendment in Committee think that it would be possible to reach agreement on and made an attempt to put some detail in the clause. the causes of poverty? Is not that quite a political issue, Other members of the Committee said, “Well, you have on which people from different backgrounds or different included this, but you have left out that, and we do not sides of the House might have a fundamentally different think that that’s very good.” I took that point. I accept view, especially on things such as family breakdown? Is that the new clause is relatively brief at the moment, but it possible to achieve his goal? amendment 23 specifies that the actual causes of poverty would be specified in regulations made by the Secretary Andrew Selous: I agree with my hon. Friend that it of State. That is clearly something that the Child Poverty would not be easy, and my attempt to do so in Committee Commission, among others, would have a view on, and did meet with some flak from fellow Committee members. 399 Child Poverty Bill9 DECEMBER 2009 Child Poverty Bill 400

[Andrew Selous] Mr. Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con): Our party is often critical of targets because of how I thought that it was slightly unfair as I had made an they distort behaviour to meet often statistical and attempt to put a bit of detail in the Bill, but I was so numerical outcomes. Child poverty is a complex issue roughly treated that I have tabled a slightly sparser involving supply routes, causes and the reasons why clause on this occasion. However, I do not think that some people are sustained in poverty. Does my hon. difficulty should prevent us from doing this work. My Friend share my fear that because the Government hon. Friend may be aware of the comments by the want to fulfil and not breach their targets, such a Bill, Joseph Rowntree Foundation that which sets fixed numbers based on income, may risk “the strategy against poverty and social exclusion pursued since putting a short-term desire for box-ticking ahead of the the late 1990s is now largely exhausted.” long-term need to address the deep-rooted causes of That is the very group that the right hon. Member for poverty and to support those who need long-term solutions, Birkenhead quoted. not short-term political fixes? We can all agree on a certain set of indicators, perhaps around worklessness, addiction and educational Andrew Selous: My hon. Friend served with great underachievement, and in fact I thought that there was distinction in Committee, and it is excellent to see him a degree of unity across the House on the issue of in the Chamber. He has a point. It worries me a little family breakdown. when I hear Ministers saying, “We have raised 500,000 people”—or however many—“out of poverty.” I take Mr. Frank Field: I was trying to get away from this the example of a household that has been nudged from, debate. The quotation that the hon. Gentleman cited say, 58 to 61 per cent. of median income. Imagine from Mike Brewer was—apart from the last half- knocking on the door of that household and asking, sentence—about a more flowery definition of poverty, “What does it feel like to be out of poverty?” That whether children are fat or not fat. What I was trying to might be a harsh analogy because I realise that we will emphasise was that we should be primarily concerned always need a target, that it will involve a line and that with how to create as many exits from poverty and, crossing it will bring only slight differences. However, equally importantly, how to cut off the supply routes to my general point is that we could visit that household poverty. The hon. Gentleman may have had a rough that is just above the poverty threshold and find that going over in Committee, but that is what I thought his things had not really changed. I believe that the hon. clause was about. What are the supply routes to poverty? Member for Copeland (Mr. Reed) talked about the culture of poverty in his excellent contributions in Andrew Selous: I mentioned one or two routes in Committee, and I think that he has a sense of where I response to my hon. Friend the Member for South-West am coming from. Devon (Mr. Streeter), including worklessness, educational I hope to press new clause 2 to a Division, and the underachievement and addiction. Nearly 1.5 million same goes for new clause 3, if time permits—although I children in this country live in households where their realise that it might not. There is a serious point behind parents are subject to serious addiction. Just over 1 million new clause 3. It would put the much easier 2010-11 are subject to serious alcohol abuse and 350,000 children target to halve the original rate of child poverty by have parents who are subject to serious drug abuse. I say 2010-11 on a statutory basis. I was grateful to the hon. to the Government in all earnestness that, unless they Member for Northavon and his colleagues in Committee ally their anti-addiction policy with their anti-poverty for supporting us on that. I look forward to their strategy, we will not succeed in meeting the 2020 targets. support if we can press new clause 3 to a Division. I thought that the right hon. Member for Birkenhead As I said, there is a serious point behind the new phrased his contribution extremely well. I am at one clause. We are not just playing politics. All the commentators with him on ensuring that the debate is not about think it unlikely that we will meet the target. In the light stigma or castigating a particular group, but about of the pre-Budget report, will the Minister tell the giving help to every type of family and trying to encourage House how many additional children will be brought the right sort of behaviour, which he ably described in out of child poverty? I am looking at the section in the relation to his constituents. report on supporting families to reduce child poverty, Mr. Field: Is addiction not to some extent a presenting on page 81, but that number is not leaping out at me. problem? Are we saying that if we abolished addiction, Perhaps she will enlighten the House in her response. we would automatically link that to the abolition of Interestingly, it has been 10 years, virtually to the day, poverty? What does the hon. Gentleman think are the since the then Chancellor of the Exchequer—the current supply routes? Behind addiction is another tale to tell. Prime Minister—committed the Government, in the There are two big routes that the House should want to pre-Budget report on 9 November 1999, to the intermediate tackle. The first is why some people can command only goal, as I think it was described, of halving child low-paid jobs—if they are going? Secondly, we know poverty by 2010. We have had 10 years, almost to the that the likelihood is that very young mothers on their day, of trying to meet the 2010 target. New clause 3 own and their children will be poor. Should we not at would provide great value by ensuring that the relevant least be telling people that? Secretary of State—I understand from Committee proceedings that it would be the Chancellor—comes to Andrew Selous: I agree. There is no great difference the Dispatch Box and explains why the 2010 target of between the right hon. Gentleman and myself. I think halving child poverty has not been achieved, because, that his first point referred primarily to education and frankly, after today it is not going to be achieved, and skills and his second to certain types of family formation. then, importantly, how the policy will change, what I am in broad agreement with him. additional things will be done in our schools and skills 401 Child Poverty Bill9 DECEMBER 2009 Child Poverty Bill 402 training, and how we can strengthen families throughout 3pm the length and breadth of the nation. That would give Finally, I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Oxford, us an early opportunity to learn the lessons on how we West and Abingdon (Dr. Harris) for tabling amendment 33, need to tweak policy to make further progress. That is which is one of a series of amendments that were the point. If we continue with the current rate of suggested by the Joint Committee on Human Rights, progress, with the strategy that the Government have on which he serves. He is right to alight on the fact that had in place since 1999, we will not have a chance of the current survey excludes those addresses that are meeting the 2020 target, which everyone in the House, I communal establishments or institutions. The groups believe, wants to see achieved. affected include, among others, Traveller children and children of asylum seekers, and the important categories Mr. Stuart: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving of those in bed-and-breakfast accommodation and looked- way; he is a charitable person and does not necessarily after children in children’s homes. I am sure that all of share my view. I believe that the Bill is before the House us in the House would want to ensure that those groups today to distract child poverty campaigners and the are included. people of this country from the fact that the Government made a solemn promise to halve child poverty by 2010, Amendment 34, the hon. Gentleman’s linked but had no intention or means of meeting that promise. amendment, asks the child poverty commission to look That was in a time of plenty when we were spending far at what type of annual survey would include those more funds than the country could afford, and they still groups of children. I could not help thinking when I failed to deliver on that promise. Instead of being read the amendment that it should also be directed at honest with people, therefore, they have set out to the Office for National Statistics, because the ONS is promise eradication in 10 years, when we know that the independent body to which the Government look to public finances will be far tougher. The likelihood is collect such data. I have no doubt that the Minister will that a fraud and a deceit are being put upon people, touch on that point when she replies. including the poorest children in the country, by a I am also interested to hear how the Government Government who are seeking to distract people’s attention view their responsibilities to the children of asylum rather than tackling the root causes of poverty. seekers and the Traveller community. I quite understand that they are difficult communities for the Government Andrew Selous: My hon. Friend made that type of to engage with, particularly if Traveller children are forceful comment extremely well in Committee. Some moving around the country, or perhaps going abroad believe that that is the case; they think that this is and returning again. I am also interested in the exact declaratory politics. I would like again to quote Mike position of children of asylum seekers. For example, if Brewer from the IFS. He said: they are in institutions such as Yarl’s Wood in the north “Those with a more cynical mind would accuse the Government of Bedfordshire, where my constituency is, how exactly of introducing this Bill to try to hide its predicted failure to meet do the Government measure income for them? its target for child poverty in 2010/11…It is not clear why the Government is unwilling to meet its own target for 2010/11, but keen to bind its successors to more stringent targets.” Mr. Streeter: I will be mercifully brief. I want to raise That is precisely my hon. Friend’s point. As I have said, a number of points in support of new clauses 3 and 2. therefore, I would like to press new clause 3 to a vote. I As most colleagues will know, I spent quite a lot of know that he will be in the Division Lobby behind me, if time on the international development brief in the we get the opportunity. 1990s, when we were pursuing the 2015 millennium development goals. They were set in the early 1990s, Mr. Frank Field: It is easy enough for us to attack the when giving 10, 15 or 20 years to achieve them seemed a Government for not achieving the objective, but will the perfectly reasonable and commendable thing to do. hon. Gentleman not at least praise them for setting out Everyone thought that that was exactly the right way on this course and for willing huge taxpayer resources forward. As it turned out, the closer we get, the more we to achieve it? If one wants to criticise the Government, realise we are a long way from achieving those goals. it should be for having a top-down approach—for wanting With hindsight, it would have been far better to build in to do things without thinking how the poor themselves more immediate, intermediate goals as we walked along might be set free and given the ability to change their that journey, to ensure that we were moving in the right own circumstances. direction and testing ourselves. That is why I support Andrew Selous: I do indeed pay tribute to the new clause 3. Government’s commitment. I do not think that that is We have had the Government target, but new clause 3 disputed. If the right hon. Gentleman looks at the talks about not just an immediate target for 2010 in this record, he will see that I said that in Committee and I Bill, but being very specific indeed about what is achieved am happy to say it again from the Dispatch Box. I am through that target. I said this on Second Reading, but interested in his point. He is right to talk about the putting in place a target and setting up a commission importance of moving away from a top-down approach, are not substitutes for a proper, well thought through which is why I am excited about the potential of part 2 and developed strategy for hitting such targets and of the Bill—I do not know if he has had a chance to delivering on the issue that we are all concerned about— look at it—which offers an exciting new role for local there is no one in the House who does not want to authorities. My hon. Friends and I share a concern that reduce child poverty, however it is defined. If we are the Government have taken an overly prescriptive and serious, there is an argument for restructuring the machinery top-down approach to dealing with local authorities, of government, rather than just setting up a commission because we believe that having a degree of diversity and and setting a target, so that many existing Departments trying different solutions is likely to yield more results. are better placed to bear down on the problem. 403 Child Poverty Bill9 DECEMBER 2009 Child Poverty Bill 404

[Mr. Streeter] We are talking about very difficult issues. More thinking needs to be done. The Bill suffers from the fact that it I sit on the Select Committee on Home Affairs. does not seek to get behind the issue of poverty and try Yesterday we heard evidence from the former drugs at least to trigger a debate about its causes. My hon. tsar, Mr. Hellawell. He talked about his time as someone Friend the Member for South-West Bedfordshire is on brought in from the outside to take overall responsibility to a good thing in setting out new clause 2, which would of the drugs strategy in the United Kingdom, and require someone to do some more thinking on the issue. about the difficulty of getting all Departments co-ordinated I think that the idea is for regulations to come forward and in alignment to bear down on the drugs problem. If to grapple with the problem—I am sure that my hon. we genuinely believe that child poverty in this country Friend will nod at this point. should be a huge focus for the Government and if we would all like it to be significantly reduced, there is an Andrew Selous indicated assent. argument for restructuring the machinery of government to bear down on the problem, and not just setting a Mr. Streeter: That would be a very valuable exercise. target or establishing a commission. I hope that the House will seriously consider agreeing to new clause 3, Mr. Jamie Reed (Copeland) (Lab): As ever, the hon. and if not, to something like it, to ensure that we do not Gentleman is making a thoughtful and valuable just set waffly old goals, but put down, on the record, contribution, but does he agree that although poverty, achievable targets and stepping stones towards achieving and particularly child poverty, is about more than money, them in the mean time. unless we address the financial implications of child New clause 2 talks about the causes of poverty, which poverty, frankly this Bill will be for the birds and we resonates greatly with the former Prime Minister’s talk shall make no headway at all? about being “tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime”. Of course we would like to be tough on the Mr. Streeter: I agree, or I think I do. I certainly want causes of poverty, but what are they? I intervened on my us to address financial child poverty—of course I do. It hon. Friend the Member for South-West Bedfordshire is distressing when we come across it, as we all do in our (Andrew Selous) and wondered whether it was possible constituencies every weekend. However, I feel even more for us to agree as a House on what the causes of poverty strongly that I would not want us just to focus on might be. For example, what part do human nature and financial poverty, but to see some of the other values the choices that we make individually play in the causes and framework principles in life as equally important. of poverty? We have all observed, in our lives and in our Some of us enjoyed them as we were growing up and constituencies over the years, people in similar circumstances some of us did not, and they make a huge difference to and from similar backgrounds making different choices, the sorts of people we become. with some flourishing and others ending up in deprivation and poverty. To what extent can one factor in those individual choices that are a reflection of individual Mr. Graham Stuart: There is the possibility of distortion, human nature? Perhaps that is utterly impossible. not only in the child poverty agenda as we get nearer to the targets being met, but across the piece. Does my Ill health is also a cause of poverty. We have all hon. Friend share my misgivings about such declaratory known families who have been going along very nicely legislation, which means that child poverty, by being indeed, when the primary breadwinner—or perhaps put on a statutory footing, has privilege over every one both parents or a child—sadly becomes ill and the of the various other priorities that government has to money stops flowing, causing disruption and poverty. balance at all times, such as the vulnerable elderly? If Family breakdown, drug addiction and alcohol dependency, the legislation has force in the rather poorer decade that which my hon. Friend mentioned, and poor education—all we now face, it could lead to the wrong decisions being these things can be causes of poverty. made from a social justice point of view, in wider areas than child poverty alone. John Mason (Glasgow, East) (SNP): The hon. Gentleman lists a number of issues. We are all committed in this House to getting to the causes, but is there not a danger Mr. Streeter: My hon. Friend is on to a very good that, by making the list so wide, that becomes impossible, point. This is a question of what the Government focus because everything from the weather onwards becomes on. This slightly contradicts the point that I made a factor? earlier. If we are serious about child poverty, we need to restructure Government Departments and align them Mr. Streeter: The hon. Gentleman anticipates me. I so that they can bear down on the problem. My hon. embrace that concept, except to say that I am not sure Friend might ask why we should not do that in relation how practical it is. I support probing the issue and I to elderly poverty or to deprivation of all kinds. Of believe that the Government need to think about it course these are important issues. more, but I reject the fact that we are measuring only I have been in the House for 17 years. I believe that, financial poverty. This is a slightly different point, but for all sorts of reasons, the situation is now significantly we know that there are lots of children who are from worse—with the lack of social cohesion, with behaviour modest or poor backgrounds but who have a stable, issues and the fact that so many children are now loving family and lots of encouragement and nurturing, growing up in households of chaos—than when I first and who would not consider themselves to be poor. entered the House in 1992. I do not say that in any There are other families with a great deal more financial political sense. I would love to see whichever Government support and income, but who live in chaotic households are in place after the next election focusing on this issue and would certainly consider themselves to be deprived and really getting underneath the surface to try to of the most important things in life. tackle it. 405 Child Poverty Bill9 DECEMBER 2009 Child Poverty Bill 406

Ms Sally Keeble (Northampton, North) (Lab): Does of poverty. They relate to children in what the Bill the hon. Gentleman accept that, in about 1980, about describes as “qualifying households”. Those are not one in three children were growing up in poverty, compared defined in the Bill—they are to be defined by regulations— with just under one in five now? By any standard, a but it is clear that they will include households that are society with a third of its children growing up in poverty covered by certain surveys. The report states: is much more dysfunctional. “The surveys currently used are based on the Small Users Postcode Address File, which includes most addresses which have Mr. Streeter: I am afraid that I do not really trust postcodes and receive less than 50 items of post a day, and those statistics terribly much. From my own experience, exclude addresses which are ‘communal establishments or looking out on this country and on my own constituency institutions’.” profile and work load, I believe that our country now faces greater challenges in terms of its social cohesion That is where our concern arises. Children who do not and the quality of life of the 15 to 20 per cent. of the live in qualifying households under that definition will population who are growing up in households of chaos not be the subject of the targets. That raises the question and not being given a chance. whether they would suffer discrimination under article 14 and whether the legislation is therefore incompatible I am talking about new clause 3, Mr. Deputy Speaker, with our obligation not to discriminate under article 14 in case you were under any misapprehension. The corollary in respect of their enjoyment of other convention rights. of what I said earlier about choices is this: I accept that many people growing up in this country do not have the Our argument is not that that would be a matter of same choices as those who come from secure, stable, direct discrimination; it clearly would not be. However, nurturing backgrounds. I totally take that point on it would constitute indirect discrimination. The example board. we give, which has already been mentioned, is that I think that I have delivered more or less all that I children from disadvantaged groups—that makes it worse; wanted to say. I believe that my hon. Friend the Member it is not children generally, but children from disadvantaged for South-West Bedfordshire is on to a good point in groups, such as the children of asylum seekers, Gypsy, new clause 2, and that we should build specific delivery Roma and Traveller children, and children living in bed mechanisms into the Bill, as set out in new clause 3. I and breakfast accommodation and care homes—would hope that the Government are in listening mode. not benefit under the present definition from the duty imposed on the Government to tackle child poverty Dr. Evan Harris (Oxford, West and Abingdon) (LD): according to the existing four targets, although if my I rise to speak to amendments 33 and 34, tabled on hon. Friend the Member for Northavon (Steve Webb) behalf of the Joint Committee on Human Rights by me gets his way, there will be five targets. The Joint Committee’s and the hon. Member for Hendon (Mr. Dismore), the assertion is that that would breach article 14 in respect Chairman of that Committee. of the enjoyment of the rights under article 1 of protocol 1, The Joint Committee attempts—it generally succeeds—to which include the right to enjoy one’s possessions. There analyse every piece of primary legislation that might are clear examples in case law of the kind of benefits engage human rights, and to issue a report for Parliament that are covered by that, and an article 8 case is also and the Government in which we make recommendations, relevant. particularly when we feel that the legislation has human If that is a problem, we need to provide a solution. As rights compatibility issues; we also comment when the my hon. Friend the Member for Northavon said, that measures enhance human rights. We tend to do that will not be easy. It is not, however, the job of the Joint before the Report stage of a Bill in the first House, to Committee to provide that solution. It is for the Government enable Parliament as a whole to consider our to propose it and for Parliament to amend it. The Joint recommendations and debate the amendments. It is Committee has, however, tabled two amendments that good to see the amendments being debated, although we believe go some way towards providing a solution. there is not always is time to do so on Report. They would place a duty in the Bill for an effort to be The Joint Committee report was published on made to ameliorate any discrimination that might, almost 10 November 2009. It makes it clear that the Committee by necessity, follow from the use of the existing surveys. welcomes the Bill and generally recognises it as a human rights enhancing measure. We also welcome the detail I shall not go through the report in detail, but it provided in the human rights memorandum that the makes a number of brief arguments against the proposition Government supplied and the fact that the Government that we set out in correspondence with the Government. recognised, implicitly and explicitly, the role that the First, we said that the Bill does not engage article 1 of Bill can play in meeting our treaty obligations under the protocol 1, because it sets out no specific benefits. It United Nations convention on the rights of the child simply establishes a framework, and the measures in the and the United Nations convention on economic, social Bill are not sufficiently determinative of any decision to and cultural rights. It is good to have the opportunity to allocate funds or resources to particular groups, and debate measures that show the value of our human not therefore to others. Our view was that the measure rights commitments arising from the treaties and the would have to have sufficient scope of application; it Human Rights Act 1998, particularly in the light of the would not be necessary to identify specific discrimination many attacks—usually based on myth—that are made for article 1 of protocol 1 to be engaged. on the Act in this House. The question that is raised is whether the use of binding targets is sufficient to create this problem if a 3.15 pm group is left out. We believe that there is a question of The matter addressed by the Joint Committee’s two discrimination, which is not permitted, if some children amendments is that the principal duty set out in the Bill are treated better than others particularly disadvantaged is to meet four targets defined by income-based indicators children such as those of asylum seekers, Gypsies and 407 Child Poverty Bill9 DECEMBER 2009 Child Poverty Bill 408

Travellers, and those living in bed and breakfast all children can be measured against child poverty targets. accommodation. We definitely think that that would be I accept my hon. Friend’s point that it would not be a problem. easy to apply household data to non-household individuals. The Government have argued that no provision in I am sensitive to the fact that existing data sets are not the Bill would result in some children being left out, conducive to that task, but the amendment does not say because the qualifying households will be defined in that the data sets are conducive. It is designed to get the regulations. They say that there can be no argument Government to take extra steps to ensure—perhaps by with the Bill, because the definition will follow in the amending the targets to have two tiers, because although regulations. We have not accepted that argument previously, it would be differential, it would not be discriminatory and nor have the Government, when it suits them. We if the intention and effect are good—the best means of state in the report: identifying, aiding and lifting out of poverty those “Our concern about the compatibility with Article 14 ECHR other children who are just not being measured. of excluding children not in qualifying households from the targets is not affected by the fact that qualifying households will John Mason: I am listening carefully to what the hon. be defined in regulations rather than in the Bill itself.” Gentleman is saying and I believe I understand his point. I just wonder whether we simply need a completely We have made clear that if separate target for those children. Might that not be the “the provisions in a Bill are likely to give rise to a breach of a best way to deal with the problem? Convention right in practice, for example because of a regulation making power that is likely to be exercised in a way which is Dr. Harris: That might be the way forward. We argue incompatible with Convention rights”, that the Bill as a whole, because of the targets set in it, that ends up being discriminatory—not intentionally, but in “is of as much concern to us as a breach on the face of the Bill.” effect—so if the relevant part of the Bill dealt specifically The Government’s third argument is that it is not the with those children, it would seem to solve the problem. intention to discriminate against those children, and I It is not a matter of saying that those children need to certainly accept that the Government are of that view. appear in every target, but the relevant part of the Bill Indeed, they point out that the duty to have a child that puts a duty on the Government to allocate resources poverty strategy will apply to all children; other parts of to children living in poverty should not by design, albeit the Bill not affected by these amendments do not seek unintentionally, exclude some of the most disadvantaged to discriminate. Although we support and welcome children. That is really the nub of our argument. that, it does not solve the problem that part of the Bill The problem is not that, because the children are not does appear to discriminate against children. The fact covered by the duty, they may not receive the resources. that it is not the intention for the Bill to discriminate Instead, the problem is that, given our present difficult against them is not relevant; it is, as we say, financial straits, resources may be moved from those “enough that it is the effect of its provisions that the children children who are not subject to the targets in order to covered by the targets are prioritised over those children not provide the resources to deal with the children who are caught by the data”. covered in the target. We have seen that happen, or at The fourth and final argument that we have identified least allegedly happen, before—in the treatment of lone the Government using is that the discrimination against parents, for example, when lone parent benefit for the children not living in qualifying households is justifiable very poorest was cut in order to increase it for the next and proportionate because it is simply not practical to poorest group. That happened some years ago and I conduct surveys that cover all children. We do not think well remember the debate about it. That is the real that that is good enough, because we believe that efforts problem. could be made to identify the children we are concerned Finally, I would like to deal with the point raised by about. We have made that clear in a number of places in the hon. Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr. Stuart) our report. in his first, less irate, intervention. He made a very good point. I have always had concerns about target-based Steve Webb: The dilemma is that for the vast bulk of approaches to policy, because if targets are not measured the nation’s children, living standards can be assessed correctly or if the target ends up being the wrong one, it using household surveys on a common standard, can distort policy and resource allocation. We see that internationally defined and all the rest of it. Is my hon. in the health service all the time, where the most urgent Friend’s argument that, if it is not possible to put patient is the one who has been waiting 17 and a half children in the groups he refers to on to that same weeks, rather than the one who has waited only three metric—that is the key problem; we know where they weeks but whose case is clinically more urgent. That is are and we could survey them, but converting their why when dealing with the vulnerable, it is vital that we living standards into the same metric is very difficult—could identify the right groups. That is why I hope the Minister we not apply a rational approach to the vast majority of will consider carefully the constructive suggestions made children; or would my hon. Friend’s approach preclude by the Joint Committee. us from doing that at all because it is discriminatory? David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): I rise to speak Dr. Harris: I do not know the answer to that question, briefly to this group of amendments. I confess that I but we recognise that the number of additional children have not been involved in the debate all along, but that it would be necessary to survey is relatively small, would like to raise just a few points. amounting to about 0.5 per cent. Because the whereabouts When it comes to the key principles and objectives of of many of those children is already known because of this Bill, I believe the Government’s heart is in the right the other responsibilities of public authorities, it would place, but as right hon. and hon. Members have already be difficult to make a case for regarding as disproportionate said, the target date of 2020 will not be achieved—it is the task of ensuring that the data are available, so that going to be very difficult. 409 Child Poverty Bill9 DECEMBER 2009 Child Poverty Bill 410

Before I entered this House and became engaged in David Simpson: I wish that I had a crystal ball. It is full-time politics, child poverty to me was a third world very difficult to identify the root of the problem and country—a country trying to develop and move on and find a way of encouraging people to emerge from that enter western society. When I came into politics, however, lifestyle. The hon. Gentleman referred to addiction I was astounded at the number of children who were earlier, and that is also a major problem. As with a living in poverty across the whole of the United Kingdom. disease, we need to find the root cause in order to That was a real eye-opener for me. eradicate this problem, and I believe that it will take I find myself in agreement with the right hon. Member until well after 2020 to complete the job. for Birkenhead (Mr. Field), who is not in his place at the The Northern Ireland Executive remain committed moment, in much of what he said about poverty. Other to the 2006 strategy document “Lifetime Opportunities”. Members have raised the point about finding reasons Its key objectives are enshrined in the “Programme for for such poverty. What is the root cause? We have heard Government”, which sets out some ambitious targets a number of different responses to that question. including the lifting of some 67,000 children out of Ten years ago, the Government pledged to eradicate poverty by next year and—as the Bill proposes—the child poverty within a generation. It had doubled in the elimination of child poverty by 2020. That will be very preceding 20 years, and the United Kingdom had the difficult, but the aims and objectives are there. worst child poverty record in Europe. Money was mentioned earlier today. Let me end with a comment made by a parent from Belfast. She says: Mr. Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): “I know that money cannot buy happiness and my children My hon. Friend has talked of the Government’s have loads of love, but having enough money is important to commitment to eradicating child poverty within a ensure that my children are well looked after and have the things generation. Does he agree that part of the challenge, that they need in life.” not just in Northern Ireland but throughout the United We owe it to our children and the next generation to act Kingdom, is that poverty is a generational problem? In on that. many societies, estates and communities, the grandparents, As I have said, I believe that the Government’s aims the parents and, now, the children have all suffered from and objectives show that their heart is in the right place, the same difficulty, from which no one has managed to but we need to dig for the root cause in order to deal extricate them. with the problem. David Simpson: I agree wholeheartedly with my hon. Friend. There is no doubt that child poverty is a generational Mr. Graham Stuart: It is a pleasure both to follow the problem, and that it is still a reality in Britain today. hon. Member for Upper Bann (David Simpson) and to Figures have been issued ranging from 4 million to participate in this debate. I shall address my remarks 6 million. However, many of the issues have been devolved chiefly to new clauses 2 and 3. The hon. Gentleman and to the Northern Ireland Executive. Like my hon. Friend, other contributors have mentioned the Government’s I had the privilege of chairing the Social Development heart being in the right place, and I think I agree with Committee in the Assembly, where all those issues were that, but there are three drivers behind this Bill, and raised. whereas the first of them is a genuine commitment to tackling child poverty, the other two are more ignoble. 3.30 pm The Bill is designed in part to distract from the In Northern Ireland, where the problem has been Government’s failure to meet the 2010-11 target, and it historically worse, some 100,000 children are living in is also being introduced in the hope that it will serve to poverty. The hon. Member for Northavon (Steve Webb) create the famous political dividing lines, as is characteristic mentioned housing. Far too many young people’s lives of so many proposals and legislation since the current are blighted by homes that are cold and damp because Prime Minister took office. The Bill has been introduced their families cannot afford heating. As a result, their in the hope that the Conservatives will fall into a health suffers. They go into adulthood with chronic political trap by expressing doubts about the mechanisms health problems that may plague them for the rest of it employs or its declaratory nature—or any other of a their lives. Children who grow up in poverty do not have number of well-founded concerns about it. The Government the same opportunities as their peers—the right hon. hoped the Conservatives might be foolish enough to Member for Birkenhead mentioned education in this oppose the Bill so that they could be shown to be more context—and that can turn disadvantaged children into interested in the few than the many, thus reinforcing the disillusioned adults. disgraceful and unhelpful narrative to which the Prime Minister is so dedicated. Therefore, the Government’s Mr. Graham Stuart: How is a balance to be struck heart is not in the right place in two out of those three between giving families who are living in poverty a aims. Furthermore, the fact that the Government are so sense of empowerment and a sense that they are the keen to create these dividing lines prevents us from authors of their own lives—I am thinking, for instance, being able to talk about the fiendishly complex problem of the many first-generation immigrant families who of tackling child poverty. live in poverty but, driven by their values, make sure I do not doubt the Government’s commitment to that their children do not follow them—and giving tackling child poverty, but in the boom period that we them support? We need to support them, but not in a have recently enjoyed, the low-hanging fruit in policy way that sustains a lack of aspiration and a lifestyle that terms was halving child poverty, and they did not meet will keep successive generations in poverty. How do we their target in 2005—although they missed it by a provide support in a way that is both humane and wafer-thin margin, so I will not place too much emphasis politically effective? on that. They are going to miss the 2010 child poverty 411 Child Poverty Bill9 DECEMBER 2009 Child Poverty Bill 412

[Mr. Graham Stuart] Government, who have so often failed the poorest, to put themselves in a cloak of social justice. They do not target as well, and they reject spending the money that deserve to wear it. the Institute for Fiscal Studies says they could spend in All this means that we are not doing enough of what order to meet that target next year. Therefore, despite the hon. Member for Upper Bann and so many others, the fact that they made a solemn pledge, they are saying including the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Field), that they will not spend the £4.3 billion on transfers to were talking about. We should be trying to wrestle with ensure that they halve child poverty. They could do the complexity of these issues so that we do not create that, but they have decided not to, because they recognise, perverse incentives—those affecting the poor and the as all Governments must, that they have to strike a rich. We want social justice and we want effectiveness, balance between all the different priorities they are and we want it to be provided in a humane way. We do addressing. Why, therefore, would a future Government not want to play politics with looking after the poor in a be able to do that in 10 years’ time, after what will way that ends up with more of them kept that way. doubtless be a much tougher decade than the past 10 years from a financial point of view? I therefore Dr. William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): Does believe that that will not be done. The Government are the hon. Gentleman agree that in meeting the challenge setting us up for failure, and they are giving a false of child poverty, it does not matter to which party one promise to people that eradication is in sight. I find the belongs? Child poverty is a problem facing all parties in entire Bill deeply unsatisfactory. this House, so it is vital that we reach a consensus on how we take children out of poverty and allow them to New clause 3 is tremendously useful in asking for a succeed in life with the backing of Government and report, and thereby asking the Government to talk Government policy? about what they are doing now—to talk about the deadline not 10 or 11 years hence, but for tackling Mr. Stuart: I partially agree with what the hon. children being brought up in deprivation today. What Gentleman says, and I certainly welcome the sentiment are the Government doing now—this month, this quarter, behind it. I am not always convinced that consensus next quarter, all the way through to the end of the next does lead to the best results. A clash of ideas more often financial year? If they oppose the new clause, they will leads to positive outcomes than does a cosy consensus show that they are not interested in transparency and in in this place. All the parties signed up to the Climate looking at the here and now. They will show that they Change Act 2008, but have we seen a demonstrable are interested not in the political realities of delivering change in emissions since it was passed? We have not for the poorest in our society, but in playing political seen it yet, but I hope that we will. I shall not go further games so that they can welcome the clamour of support on that; I shall stop before I am stopped, Mr. Deputy for their long-term vision. We have had a lot of long-term Speaker. visions, and the long-term vision of today is that we have ended up with record numbers of young people in Steve Webb: It is always a shame to interrupt the hon. unemployment. Gentleman in full flow. May I encourage him to be a bit Whenever my hon. Friend the Member for South-West wary about this so-called very low-income measure of Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) is sitting on the Front less than 40 per cent. of median income? I hope he is Bench, I am always minded to try to follow his lead by aware that although that accurately represents some being less strident and more charitable—he manages to people’s living standards, surveys of income and expenditure achieve that both rightly and effectively. It is, therefore, provide good reason to think that the measurement of worth commenting on a few positive things the Government income of those very low-income households is often have done. They have invested in early child care such as not a good proxy for their living standards. The classic the Sure Start children centres, and they have made a case is that of the self-employed, whose books show less genuine effort to put in place early intervention, which than 40 per cent. but whose living standard is clearly relates to matters of interest to the hon. Member for not that at all. I am trying not to be patronising, but I Nottingham, North (Mr. Allen). We must judge the discourage him from putting too much weight on this outcomes of today, however, and what we now have measure of less than 40 per cent., where the data really are more NEETs—young people not in education, are murky. employment or training—than when the Government Mr. Stuart: I would always defer to the hon. Gentleman came to power. on matters of statistics, but when the official Government We should also consider the number of people who statistics have been reasonably consistent—he may correct are on the very lowest incomes. When most people me if I am wrong about this—and have shown an think about poverty, they think about the very poorest. increase in the number of people in that category, either When they have a Labour Government who say they we have had an explosion in black market activity want to eradicate child poverty, little would they imagine among families or we face a genuine problem. It is that that Government would be smug and proud of perfectly reasonable for those of us who have not slaved their record when the number of children in families on for many years in national statistics offices to take the very lowest incomes—not below 60 per cent. of Government figures at face value, particularly when median income, which is the technical description of they show us an ugly picture of an increase in poverty relative poverty, but below 40 per cent. of median among the poorest. He may patronise me as much as he income—is at its highest for 25 years. That is the reality. likes, but until I am given comprehensive evidence to The poorest are poorer under Labour, despite the show that there has not been an increase in poverty investments and the genuineness of the commitments. among the poorest in this society, I shall remain Yet we have before us this vainglorious piece of legislation, concerned—even if he wants to dismiss my concern for which is designed to distract and to allow this failing technical reasons. 413 Child Poverty Bill9 DECEMBER 2009 Child Poverty Bill 414

It is worth saying that we could have a clash of The fact that we have a Minister on the Front Bench ideologies here, although there is so much political fear with such a perverse and peculiar view undermines my ahead of a general election that not much clashing is confidence that the Government know what they are occurring. Historically, the Conservative party has doing. believed—or certainly one could caricature it thus—in trickle-down economics. I remember a friend of mine Mr. Jamie Reed: The hon. Gentleman is making a sneeringly saying to me a little while ago, “I suppose very interesting case, as usual, which is being enjoyed by you believe in trickle-down economics.” As a good Members of all parties. Does he agree that this Bill is Conservative, I do, to an extent. However, although the fundamentally about the kind of country that we want previous Conservative Government transformed the to be and that it is also about priorities and assurances? country from being the sick man of Europe—we took Where does that rate in his priorities? over from the previous economic wreckage of a Labour Mr. Stuart: The hon. Gentleman is quite right. I shall Government—to being a much more powerful and try to answer him as straightforwardly as I can. I dynamic economy, child poverty increased, and nobody personally do not support putting child poverty targets who sits on the Conservative Benches is proud of that. on a statutory footing when we have not assessed all We want to combine a proper recognition of the need deprivation and when we have not considered the plight for incentives, for hard work to be rewarded, for enterprise of the disabled, the elderly poor or any number of other to be supported and for the state not to smother economic groups. We have not considered the other priorities—we activity with ensuring that, as we grow the economy, we could be at war in eight years’ time. All Governments carry all with us and do not rely on trickle-down want the best outcomes for the most people and have a economics to give us the magic solution. That certainly particular interest—they certainly should—in looking did not happen under the previous Conservative after the most vulnerable and the weakest in our society. Government. Should we—the hon. Gentleman will have to forgive me, as I know that he is not a cynical Member of this John Mason: I noticed the hon. Gentleman’s phrase place—prioritise this issue for cynical electoral reasons about hard work being rewarded, and there is a problem so that the Government can capture a headline and in that a lot of the children in poverty have one or more distract from their failures? parents working. Would he be happy to support a higher minimum wage and, in fact, a living wage? Ms Keeble: Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that all the studies that are based on Department for Work and Pensions stats, including the Joseph Rowntree 3.45 pm Foundation study, show that it is children who are most Mr. Stuart: That is a fair question and it would need likely to be in poverty in the UK today? That is the to be considered. We do not want to price people— point of this legislation. They are the single foremost particularly single parents who are inflexible in what group. We can identify within that group which household they can do in the workplace because of their family structures and which income structures lead people to commitments—out of accessing the marketplace. It is be in poverty, but overwhelmingly it is children who are not a battle between those who do not care and those at risk of poverty. who care and want a higher minimum wage. It is a really tough judgment call to get the right thing for the Mr. Stuart: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for that country as a whole and for the poorest in particular. intervention. Single parent households are twice as That is an argument that I would be happy to engage in likely to be in poverty, according to the Government with the hon. Gentleman. I do not have any firm views figures, as two-parent households. We have a Minister on it, and his expertise might easily eclipse mine. who suggests that family breakdown is not a cause, and suggestions have been made that to try to eradicate the We talked about social cohesion and, as hon. Members disincentives and built-in biases against couples in the have mentioned, households in chaos. We have to deal benefits and tax system is an attack on single-parent with that. What do we do when we take measures? I fear families. I would have hoped that the hon. Member for that this Bill could end up enabling transfers of money Northampton, North (Ms Keeble), who takes a profound to households, rewarding and reinforcing chaotic lifestyles. interest in such matters, would support the Opposition, The Minister has had nothing to say about that. In fact, who believe that we need a level playing field. We one of the Ministers who is on the Front Bench—the certainly do not need to reinforce the pressures on Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, the couples to split up because of perverse incentives in the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman)— benefit system. said in Committee, extraordinarily: “The Government are not wholly convinced that family breakdown Ms Keeble: I would be grateful if the hon. Gentleman is a cause of poverty”. would quote the figures from Department for Work and She actually said that. If she wants to intervene, I would Pensions tables or from the Rowntree study that show be happy to allow her to retract that today. She said: that single-parent households are twice as likely as “The Government are not wholly convinced that family breakdown two-parent households to be in poverty. I acknowledge is a cause of poverty; on the contrary, we tend to hold the view that there might be a greater likelihood of that, but I that poverty is a cause of family breakdown.”––[Official Report, would be very surprised to hear those figures, and I Child Poverty Public Bill Committee, 20 October 2009; c. 15, Q44.] would be grateful if he would quote them. Of course poverty is a cause of family breakdown. Of Mr. Stuart: I hope that it is not because of blind course the tensions and pressures of poverty might prejudice that the hon. Lady has not looked at the basic exacerbate tensions in a family. However, to suggest figures. that family breakdown does not push people into poverty is entirely to misunderstand what happens to families. Andrew Selous rose— 415 Child Poverty Bill9 DECEMBER 2009 Child Poverty Bill 416

Mr. Stuart: I am happy to give way to my hon. not those of people outside, and of seeing it purely in Friend, who is a master of such figures and will share statistical terms rather than in the wider terms that them with the House. people outside would see it. Looking at it through those eyes, I do not see how we can achieve the general aim of Andrew Selous: I am happy to intervene briefly on my eradicating child poverty in that broader sense simply hon. Friend to give the Government’s figures on HBAI through clauses 2 to 5, so I rise to speak in support of for 2007-08, from which the hon. Member for Northavon new clause 2 and the consequential amendments that (Steve Webb) has frequently quoted. Table 4 on page 66 deal with the causes of child poverty. We cannot deal shows that the chance of being in poverty is 36 per cent. with child poverty adequately without considering its for a child of lone parents and 18 per cent. for a child of causes and how we might break the cycle of deprivation. a couple—half that rate. Those are the Government’s I agree that income has to be a substantial part of that, own figures from a central DWP document on child but I want to talk about why considering income alone poverty. would be inadequate. In the period between Committee and Report, I have Mr. Stuart: One would hope that in a less febrile had the privilege of being able to talk to a number of battle between false political narratives one would not organisations that work to combat child poverty. I have even need to see the tables; one needs only common spoken to them in some depth about the Bill and their sense to see that that is likely to happen. No one wants approach to child poverty in general. One of the things to stigmatise single parents or to pretend that anyone that they welcome is that the Bill sets a framework. lives in a model family, least of all today, but one must They are not necessarily in agreement that it is the right recognise the realities and try to support people in framework, but they agree that there should be a framework. staying together and to minimise what the right hon. One of the consistent things that has come out of my Member for Birkenhead said were the supply routes conversations with them is that they too see the difficulty into poverty. That should be a common cause across the with a framework that is built only on income targets House. It is a shame that we have to read out tables to without taking into account the importance of the get people to do what common sense should tell them as family and the broader context that others have spoken a matter of course. That is a key appeal from me. about today. When debating new clauses 3 and 2, we need to talk In Committee, the Government tried to argue that about the causes of poverty. That is a complex area, and the broader context would be dealt with through the we need cross-party working and understanding without mechanisms in clause 8. I shall return to that in a playing games. On Second Reading, the Secretary of moment but, if that is true and the Bill contains a State for Work and Pensions said that the Bill would recognition of that context—through the mechanism of hold the Government of the day’s feet to the fire to material deprivation, for example—one has to ask why ensure that aims on child poverty were delivered. My there is no consistency. Why is the recognition of the duty—not in 2018 or 2090, but right now, as a Member broader context in one part of the Bill not reflected in of Parliament who represents many poor families and the targets at the beginning of the Bill? New clause 2 poor children—is to try to hold this Government to the would rectify that problem. fire for solemn pledges that they have made, but they do I still have a great problem: I struggle to see how not even want to make a report to the House to ’fess up part 1 and part 2 are linked. It is perfectly right to have to what is happening. The failure to do that and to local government involved in delivering much of the agree this new clause suggests that we will not be doing work needed to help to eradicate child poverty, but that everything we can to minimise the number of children work is about the causes of the poverty and the cycle of in child poverty, not in 10 or 12 years’ time, but right deprivation. We heard from, among others, Paul Carter, now in the coming months. the leader of Kent county council. He told us how that council was pulling the work together, and not just in Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst): Inow recent years: it had been a long journey lasting six, have to announce the result of a Division deferred from seven or eight years, which had included integrating the a previous day. On the motion relating to environmental work with the delivery of education. protection, the Ayes were 284 and the Noes were 192, so The county council that covers my constituency has the Question was agreed to. taken the same joined-up approach involving education [The Division list is published at the end of today’s and the primary care trust, with the aim of looking at debates.] the causes of child poverty and helping to overcome it. It is a shame that the right hon. Member for Birkenhead John Howell (Henley) (Con): It is always a great (Mr. Field) is not in his seat at the moment, as that pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for approach goes part of the way to answering the concerns Beverley and Holderness (Mr. Stuart). I note that during that he raised about how we get to the root causes of his speech he was in his new charitable guise. Despite child poverty. that, I am grateful for having been called to speak after In some ways, the Government have recognised that him. It is rather better that I should follow him than the one way to get to those root causes is to use local other way around. government. That is what part 2 of the Bill is about, but In Committee, I thought that we were getting very the Government have not linked part 2 with the targets close to a university lecture in semantics at times. We in part 1 to achieve the sort of broad target that new learned that eradication meant no such thing, certainly clause 2 calls for. in terms of how the general public would understand it. We also heard evidence from Charlotte Pickles from Similarly, I think that we are in danger of looking at the Centre for Social Justice about the need to see things child poverty through the eyes of the House alone and in a family context. She made the point that we need to 417 Child Poverty Bill9 DECEMBER 2009 Child Poverty Bill 418 make sure that the increases in money provided to try to the moment, because we do not see in the Bill how to eradicate poverty reach the child, and that it is not deal with the causes of deprivation and poverty—what unfairly diverted to other causes in any of the various the right hon. Member for Birkenhead referred to as possible ways. I was struck by her comment in her stopping the flow of negativity that enters the system evidence of 22 October, when she said: and produces the root causes of the problem. “of course, you need to address income levels but that cannot be I well recall the comment in Committee that the Bill the sole thing. Unfortunately, the Bill is framed in such a way that already took such things into account with the emphasis we feel that the point of looking at a wider perspective may be on material deprivation and the need to consider them lost.”––[Official Report, Child Poverty Public Bill Committee, in the strategy, but what stuck in my mind most in 22 October 2009; c. 82-83, Q7.] reading the report of the Committee proceedings was I think that that goes to the heart of new clause 2 and the information that the data on assessing material the consequential amendments that flow from it. We deprivation were so weak. So why is an imperfect measure need to move towards that broader picture. buried in the Bill, when new clause 2 could provide us In Committee, I was astonished that the Minister with a much better measure of the things that material seemed unable to make the connections between other deprivation indicates we are struggling to move towards. factors and child poverty, or to see the problem in a way We must not view the issue in terms of narrow statistics. that was not compartmentalised but in the round. In I do not want too many targets in any Bill, but nor do I response to question 13, Charlotte Pickles said: want targets that skew the Bill and our actions towards “If your targets are solely focused on income, and not on other income only. issues around poverty, you are not measuring what is necessarily In Committee, if I remember correctly, the hon. going to bring that child out of poverty.”––[Official Report, Child Member for Northavon (Steve Webb) was sceptical and Poverty Public Bill Committee, 22 October 2009; c. 86, Q13.] said that too many targets would allow the Government When taken with the broader context of the family, that too much wriggle room. If there were 10 targets, they child focus was extremely helpful. could say that they had achieved seven of them and However, we did not hear only from Charlotte Pickles therefore that they had met their goals, but those seven and the Centre for Social Justice, as we also heard Neil targets might not be the most important ones. I take O’Brien from the Policy Exchange talk about the narrowness that point—it is one of the things that needs to be of the targets in the Bill. There has been some talk to worked out—but I do not believe that the process is the effect that the current targets at least give focus. I impractical to achieve. admit that they do give a focus on income, but that is Those hon. Members who have been involved in the surely not enough: we have to make sure that the focus management of businesses may well have come across is complete, and that it is the right focus. I am far from the concept of the balanced scorecard, by which the convinced that that is the case, and it goes to the heart most important quadrants of a business’s activities are of the Bill’s extremely poor structure. divided and a handful of measures used to manage the business to achieve those objectives. Almost all those 4pm objectives are not single ones; they are baskets of objectives in which decisions are made about the importance of Mr. Jamie Reed: The hon. Gentleman has made some each in achieving the overall objective in each quadrant. interesting points, but does he agree that income is the cornerstone of the Bill and that, frankly, everything The methodology exists and is being used effectively else—whether health and well-being, the family unit or in business and local government. In the days when I any of the other issues relating to opportunity—cannot was a councillor, I happened to be responsible for be addressed unless we centralise our efforts first and introducing a balanced scorecard approach to my county foremost on income? council, and the management of the council’s business improved almost overnight as a result, because of the John Howell: I am not arguing that we should not clarity and decision making there had to be, not just in take income into account. I have not heard anyone in respect of headline-grabbing targets but in respect of the evidence sessions in Committee or in the House on targets all the way through. [Interruption.] I think the Second Reading or today say that income is not an Minister is trying to intervene on me, is she not? important element; but surely the hon. Gentleman cannot claim that income is everything. It cannot form the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work complete picture. and Pensions (Helen Goodman) indicated dissent.

Mr. Reed: I absolutely agree with the hon. Gentleman. John Howell: Ah, the hon. Lady is just making faces I fear that I was not as clear as I might have been. I am in response to my comments. If she would like a lecture not taking issue with him at all. I simply say that income on the balanced scorecard and how to do targets, she is at the heart of everything that we do. The other issues could make an appointment afterwards. I am very that he talks of, which are exceptionally important, happy to share with national Government the knowledge cannot be progressed in any way unless we first address and expertise that I have gained from local government. the income issue. I am almost at the end of my contribution. The point has been made that it is practical to look at a way of John Howell: I thank the hon. Gentleman for making approaching targets based on the causes of poverty, that point, but I look at it the other way around. We instead of just sticking to the narrow and somewhat need to ensure that the increase in income that we use to misleading targets that have been set in the Bill. help to eradicate child poverty is well used and that no other factor will come into play to prevent it from Helen Goodman: I shall speak to new clauses 1, 2 having the maximum effect, but we cannot tell that at and 3, and amendments 1 to 20, 23, 24, 33, and 34. 419 Child Poverty Bill9 DECEMBER 2009 Child Poverty Bill 420

[Helen Goodman] The hon. Gentleman asked why housing benefit should be included as income in the before-housing-costs measure New clause 1, which the hon. Member for Northavon of poverty. The obvious answer is that housing benefit (Steve Webb) moved, would include in the Bill a target is income, but I shall give him a fuller response than for relative low income measured after housing costs. that. Households in receipt of housing benefit pay their The consequential amendments are amendments 1 to 20. housing costs using their total income, including housing The new clause would impose a new target that is benefit. Households that do not receive housing benefit additional, as he knows, to the relative low income need to pay their housing costs from their total income. before housing costs target in clause 2 and the other Including housing benefit enables like-for-like comparison targets in clauses 3 to 5. between the incomes that households have with which Whether poverty should be measured before or after to pay housing costs and to meet their other needs. To housing costs and the impact of housing quality on deduct housing benefit from the income of those who children’s outcomes were debated at some length in receive it would be to underestimate the total income Committee. I emphasise that the Government recognise that they had with which to meet their housing costs the importance of housing costs to families’ disposable and other needs. incomes and the impact of those costs on their living standards. That is why the Government have placed, Mr. Graham Stuart: Will the Minister give way? and will continue to place, significant focus on the availability of affordable homes. For example, the latest Steve Webb rose— investment of £290 million at the end of November, delivering almost 5,500 affordable homes throughout Helen Goodman: I give way to the hon. Member for 149 local authority areas, brought total Government Northavon. help for house building since June to £1.8 billion. Steve Webb: Can I ask the Minister a simple question? Mr. Graham Stuart: Will the Minister give way? If I were to give her a fiver and take a fiver out of her purse, would she feel better off? Helen Goodman: Not yet, if the hon. Gentleman would just be a little patient. Helen Goodman: That is not a very difficult trick As we discussed in Committee, however, there is a question, because, as the hon. Gentleman knows, housing number of reasons why the Government have chosen to benefit rates vary around the country to take account of use before-housing-costs measures of poverty in the the different costs of housing in different parts of the Bill. First, measures of housing quality are currently country. included in the list of items that are used for the The hon. Member for Northavon asked a slightly combined low income and material deprivation measure, more tricky question when he gave the example of two so if a child is experiencing poor housing, that will be pensioners living next door to each other, one of whom reflected in their material deprivation score. More owned their house and one of whom was on housing importantly, families who cannot afford items because benefit, with the latter appearing to be better off on a of their high costs, such as high housing costs, will be before-housing-costs basis. There are similar arguments picked up in the material deprivation measure. For against an after-housing-costs measure. Imagine two example, looking at poverty statistics by region, it is families on the same income and with the same number clear, using the combined measure, that London has a of children. One family decides to spend a lot of money far higher average risk of poverty than the relative low on a house in a nice area, and the other decides to spend income measure would suggest, highlighting the additional less on housing because they have other priorities. On costs—particularly the high housing costs—of living in an after-housing-costs measure, the first family are London. considered to be poorer. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman Secondly, it is important to note— can see the logic of my case. We discussed in Committee the fact that other European Mr. Stuart: Will the Minister give way now? countries measure poverty before housing costs. We have stated our ambition to be among the best in Helen Goodman: No. Europe. The ability to make comparisons is vital because they allow us to benchmark our performance. Secondly, it is important to note the drawbacks associated with an after-housing-costs measure. As the hon. Member The new clause would not change the approach to for Northavon said, measuring income after housing measuring child poverty set out in the Bill; instead, it costs can understate some individuals’ relative standard would add a further target to the Bill, which we do not of living because they pay more for better-quality consider necessary. As members of the Committee, accommodation. Conversely, income measures that do including the hon. Gentleman, highlighted, further targets not deduct housing costs may overstate the living standards run the risk of creating a lack of focus. Having four of people whose housing costs are high relative to the comprehensive targets covering financial poverty is sufficient quality of their accommodation. Therefore, the relative and enables us to capture the different facets of poverty. low income indicator before housing costs, in conjunction As noted, the combined low income and material with the combined low income and material deprivation deprivation indicator will ensure that those whose high indicator, ensures that we effectively capture the issue of housing costs impact on their living standards will be affordability of housing. Given the drawbacks of the captured. alternatives, we consider the material deprivation indicator The new clause proposes a target level for the measure to be a better way of capturing the impact of housing of less than 10 per cent. The level of less than 10 per costs. cent. for the before-housing-costs relative low income 421 Child Poverty Bill9 DECEMBER 2009 Child Poverty Bill 422 measure in clause 2 was selected on the basis that that is My right hon. Friend began by congratulating the the lowest that has been achieved and maintained over Government on their excellent record and the scale of time in other modern European economies. The vast their ambition to tackle child poverty, but he suggested majority of European countries publish poverty statistics that the Government’s approach had been too mechanistic. using only a before-housing-costs measure of relative I point out to him that we are not focusing simply on low income, so there are no comparative data to establish incomes, taxes and benefits but, as I think he acknowledged, whether a target of 10 per cent. on an after-housing-costs we are also tackling worklessness and education issues. measure is either realistic or in line with our ambition to He suggested that benefits had been increased too much be among the best in Europe. compared with income, so I hope that he will welcome Although the targets in the Bill should be ambitious the better-off credit that the Chancellor of the Exchequer and stretching, they should not be unrealistic. The announced earlier. It will ensure that everybody in present level of relative poverty after housing costs is full-time work is better off. I remind him also of the 31 per cent., or 4 million children. Meeting the proposed significant reductions in the marginal deduction rates target would require a reduction to fewer than 1.3 million. that we have recently achieved. I would argue that it is unrealistic to envisage our In the discussion about the root causes of poverty, achieving that in the next 10 years. We published the the hon. Members for South-West Devon (Mr. Streeter), principles of our child poverty strategy in today’s pre-Budget for Upper Bann (David Simpson), for Beverley and report, outlining five principles, including cost-effectiveness Holderness (Mr. Stuart) and for Henley (John Howell) and affordability. That is key if we are to meet our mentioned family formation. It would not be particularly objectives in a sustainable manner. fruitful for me to detain the House on that matter for I draw the hon. Gentleman’s attention to the fact that long, but I point out that it is extremely difficult to say in preparing a UK child poverty strategy, consideration precisely what is the correlation between family structure must be given to any necessary measures required in and poverty levels. I remind hon. Members of the respect of housing to support the tackling of child experience in Denmark, which has the highest level of poverty, as set out in clause 8(5)(d). We are currently lone parenthood in western Europe but also comes out analysing the impact of housing on child poverty to at the top of the UNICEF table on child well-being. inform the first child poverty strategy, and that analysis The lesson that we can learn from that is that the will determine the key principles for that policy area structures and policies that we put in place are far more and, subsequently, appropriate monitoring arrangements. significant than particular matters of family formation. In any case, it is not clear that those matters are under Finally, we are committed to ensuring that the the Government’s control. “Households Below Average Income” series continues to publish income figures after housing costs, so that it Of course it is important that any Government tackle will always be possible to monitor child poverty trends the broad range of issues and policy areas related to on an after-housing-costs basis and to keep under review poverty. Clause 8 requires the UK child poverty strategy the impact of housing costs on families’ living standards. to do precisely that, but that does not mean that targets on them should be set in the Bill, as that would risk diluting the clear focus on income poverty and material 4.15 pm deprivation that is at its heart. Such issues were debated Mr. Graham Stuart: The Minister may not have been substantially in Committee, and I refer hon. Members passionate in her espousal of the importance of housing to the arguments that were expressed. As we said then, in tackling poverty, but she has at least acknowledged income poverty and material deprivation must be at the it, and I welcome the extra money that is coming to the heart of the Bill because of the evidence of the impact East Riding of Yorkshire for additional affordable housing. that they have on children’s lives, both in their experiences Can she explain, however, why a Government supposedly now and their chances for the future. Income poverty committed to eradicating child poverty have built fewer has an impact on children’s education, health and social houses in any year of their time in government than lives, the relationships with and between their parents were built in any year of the previous Conservative and their future life chances. Administration? Andrew Selous: Does the Minister not agree that Helen Goodman: I have described this afternoon the making progress on dealing with the causes of poverty investment that we are making, which is providing a is very likely to result in the Government achieving their record improvement in the decent homes standard. income poverty targets? The two go together. That is having a significant impact on people’s standard of living. Helen Goodman: If the hon. Gentleman had been a New clause 2 and amendment 23, tabled by the hon. little more patient, he would have heard me make a Member for South-West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous), similar point. suggest that regulations under the Bill should set targets Our strategy needs to be multi-faceted if we are to on a potentially wide range of outcomes that can be break into generational cycles of poverty, and so truly said to be the causes of child poverty, and that the child end child poverty.That multi-faceted approach is supported poverty strategy should set out what progress needs to by the Bill. The UK strategy will need to meet both be made to address those causes in order to meet the purposes set out in clause 8(2). As well as showing how targets in clauses 2 to 5. The causes of poverty drew the targets will be met, the strategy must meet the comments from many Members in the debate, including purpose of ensuring, as far as possible, that children in my right hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead the UK do not experience socio-economic disadvantage. (Mr. Field), who brought his usual compassionate and That second purpose ensures that the strategy will be well informed perspective to bear. broad in scope and that it will focus on a wide range of 423 Child Poverty Bill9 DECEMBER 2009 Child Poverty Bill 424

[Helen Goodman] school meals entitlement to primary age children whose parents are on working tax credits, and an increase in policy areas, rather than relying on a narrow range of child benefit of 1.5 per cent. in April 2010, which is well policies related simply to raising household income ahead of what it would be if we had stuck with the through financial support. indexation in legislation. I contrast that with the freezing Moreover, clause 8(5) establishes that the strategy of child benefit under the previous Administration, must consider what measures if any ought to be taken which meant that by 1997 it was lower in real terms across a range of key policy areas. Those building than when they took office in 1979. blocks of the strategy have been determined on evidence Steve Webb: I understand that it has been revealed that shows that those policy areas have the potential to since the pre-Budget report—it was not apparent in the make the biggest impact in tackling the causes and statement—that the 1.5 per cent. increase in child benefit consequences of growing up in income poverty. It follows is actually a draw-down of the following year’s increase. that amendment 24 is unnecessary, because the strategies The following year will have not a full inflation increase will already need to set out the specific actions that need but inflation less 1.5 per cent.—a real-terms cut. Was to be taken to meet the targets, and the annual reports the Minister aware of that? will monitor delivery, tracking a wide range of indicators that may change over time, as determined by the needs Helen Goodman: I do not think that there will be a of the strategy. real-terms cut in the following year as the hon. Gentleman As well as being unnecessary, amendment 24 is unhelpful suggests. I will write to him on that point. and problematic, because it seeks to require the strategy I turn now to the amendments tabled by the hon. to define causal relationships that in reality are tenuous Member for Oxford, West and Abingdon (Dr. Harris). and difficult to establish. The strategies will review the Amendment 33 would add a further regulation-making evidence on the underlying causes of poverty, seeking to power to clause 6, enabling the Secretary of State to establish clear evidence of causal relationships where make regulations setting out the circumstances in which they exist, but the problem with amendment 24 is that a child living in “communal accommodation” may be in many cases it is not possible to establish evidence of regarded as living in a qualifying household. That came clear causal relationships. In many cases, the evidence out of the report by the Joint Committee on Human shows that there are strong associations or connections Rights, of which the hon. Gentleman is a member. I between growing up in relative poverty and material would like to make it very clear that our goal is to deprivation, and experiencing poor intermediate outcomes eradicate poverty for all children: the framework that in a range of areas, including educational attainment, the Bill establishes for achieving that goal—using national health and other aspects of well-being. It also shows child poverty strategies and duties on local government— that there are strong associations between those intermediate applies to all children in the UK. outcomes and the risk of experiencing poor final outcomes To ensure accountability for and progress towards in adulthood, including the risk of experiencing poverty the goal, clauses 2 to 5 define targets for a range of and material deprivation. However, the causal relationship poverty indicators. As I am sure hon. Members appreciate, goes both ways. Income poverty has both direct and those targets will be effective only if progress towards indirect effects on other policy areas, including health them is measurable. That is why they do not apply to and education. Defining the causes of poverty, as the children who are not covered by the surveys that we use amendments would require, is therefore not possible to to measure poverty. Targets for those children would achieve at present owing to gaps in the evidence base not be measurable, and therefore would be an ineffective and limitations in the data available. way to ensure that their experiences of poverty are The development of the strategy will involve identifying tackled. The Bill therefore sets out that the targets apply those groups of children most at risk of being in poverty, only to children living in “qualifying households”. including particularly vulnerable groups, and assessing For many children living in communal establishments, what action needs to be taken to meet all the targets on the concept of household income is simply inapplicable. income poverty and material deprivation. The indicators However, we have other policies to address the well-being that should be tracked will change over time, as determined of those children. For example, in residential care homes, by the needs of the strategy, but our ultimate goal—the minimum requirements include the provision of healthy ending of child poverty—remains constant. meals, clothes and sufficient financial resources. I shall now turn to new clause 3, which was tabled by I am concerned to satisfy the hon. Gentleman’s concerns, the hon. Member for South-West Bedfordshire. I understand because these issues are especially important. The Joint the need for transparency on progress towards the 2010 Committee on Human Rights said that the targets target. However, I shall explain why the new clause is discriminate against children not living in qualifying unnecessary. Opposition Members have been full of households. In fact, the targets do not discriminate, as doom and gloom about our prospects for 2010 and only actions can discriminate. He is making a jump in achieving those targets—the hon. Gentleman asked a logic and setting up a situation that assumes that the number of questions about where we are and where we policy that flows from the targets will be discriminatory. think we are going to be in the light of the Chancellor of That is a mistake and that is why, with the reassurance the Exchequer’s announcements. that the objectives apply to all children, I hope that he As the hon. Gentleman knows, the Government will not press his amendments. I hope that other hon. previously forecast that measures taken since 2008 would Members also will not press their amendments. reduce child poverty by a further 500,000 in relative terms, but the Institute for Fiscal Studies says that the Steve Webb: It is good to see the House filling up for number is 600,000. The measures that the Chancellor my views on the after housing costs measure of income. announced earlier today will produce a further reduction We have had an unexpectedly full debate on this of at least 50,000. He announced an extension of free group of amendments and one of the key points that 425 Child Poverty Bill9 DECEMBER 2009 Child Poverty Bill 426 the Minister made is that measuring income after housing infrastructure does not support the sort of children costs has many flaws. That makes me wonder why her about whom my hon. Friend was talking, so he raises a Department publishes so many statistics on that basis valid point. As the hon. Member for Glasgow, East every year. It is presumably because they complement (John Mason) said, separate targets for the groups in the before housing costs measures, because they tell us part 1 might be the only way forward. I do not think different things. Each measure has its relative advantages that they can be melded into the existing targets, so they and disadvantages, and that is why the Department might need targets of their own. publishes both. To pick one for the purpose of legislation seems inconsistent to me. Dr. Harris: The Minister asked me whether I was happy, but then sat down before I could intervene. Does The Minister said that we need international my hon. Friend agree that the matter will be looked at comparisons, and my amendment would not prevent again in the House of Lords? The Minister’s assertion those being included. She says that 10 per cent. is an that the Joint Committee said that targets discriminate arbitrary figure—obviously it would be the same for is incorrect; we were careful to say that it was not the before housing costs—and that it is unobtainable. She targets, but what might flow from them, that discriminates. seems to think that we will just have to live with 1.3 million The problem was not solved by her response. children in poverty after housing costs. That is a very depressing prospect for the coming decade. Steve Webb: I agree with my hon. Friend, and I am sure that their lordships will want to return to that issue. Mr. Frank Field: Will the hon. Gentleman address In summary, it became apparent a few hours ago, the Minister’s example of two families in identical positions, during the pre-Budget statement, that the Government one of whom decide to spend more of their disposable have given up on the 2010 target. Independent estimates income on housing—perhaps living in a better area and suggest that £4 billion or £5 billion might have been because it has better schools, which will help the children needed to ensure that the 2010 target was met, but there exit poverty? Under his proposal, we could beat up the was nothing of the sort in the pre-Budget statement. Government for the fact that parents, because they have The Government have therefore run up the white flag behaved in their children’s best interests, appear poor, on their target of halving child poverty. That is why new whereas under the single definition, they would not be. clause 3 and a report on the 2010 target would be valuable. 4.30 pm Our argument on new clause 1 is not that after Steve Webb: Indeed. That is why a single measure, housing costs are the only valid measure, but that they either before or after housing costs, does not give the complement existing measures. I have heard nothing full picture. Were housing costs always about housing from the Minister that dissuades me from that view, so I quality, I would take the right hon. Gentleman’s point, seek to test the opinion of the House. but often they are only poorly related to housing quality. Question put, That the clause be read a Second time. Measuring income before and after housing costs, therefore, The House divided: Ayes 69, Noes 290. gives us a fuller picture. The Minister did not respond Division No. 19] [4.33 pm to my example. She repeated it, but she did not explain why the before housing costs would not be inaccurate in AYES my example. For different circumstances, the two measures Alexander, Danny Hunter, Mark would be more or less accurate, which is why we need Barrett, John Jones, Lynne both. Brake, Tom Keetch, Mr. Paul The hon. Member for Beverley and Holderness Breed, Mr. Colin Kennedy, rh Mr. Charles (Mr. Stuart), in an impassioned contribution, raised Brooke, Annette Kramer, Susan Burstow, Mr. Paul Lamb, Norman concerns about the number of children in very low—below Cable, Dr. Vincent Laws, Mr. David 40 per cent.—income households. I raised concerns Campbell, Mr. Gregory Leech, Mr. John about the data, and having checked the official figures, I Campbell, rh Sir Menzies MacNeil, Mr. Angus can say that the figures below 40 per cent. are not Carmichael, Mr. Alistair Mason, John published on a regular basis, because of doubts about Corbyn, Jeremy McCrea, Dr. William their validity, especially with regard to the self-employed. Davey, Mr. Edward Moore, Mr. Michael He asked fairly why the figures show what they do, but I Dodds, Mr. Nigel Mulholland, Greg am not convinced that they necessarily show anything Donaldson, rh Mr. Jeffrey Öpik, Lembit more than just problems with the data. However, that is M. Pelling, Mr. Andrew unclear, and clearly we need good data, so I take his Farron, Tim Price, Adam point. Featherstone, Lynne Pugh, Dr. John Foster, Mr. Don Rennie, Willie The comments of my hon. Friend the Member for George, Andrew Robertson, Angus Oxford, West and Abingdon (Dr. Harris) were informed Gidley, Sandra Robinson, Mrs. Iris by his membership of the Joint Committee on Human Goldsworthy, Julia Robinson, rh Mr. Peter Rights. He raised an issue that I had not thought of, Hancock, Mr. Mike Rogerson, Dan and I do not think that the Minister’s response will offer Harris, Dr. Evan Rowen, Paul him the reassurance that he seeks. As the hon. Member Harvey, Nick Russell, Bob for Henley (John Howell) said, we have part 1 and Heath, Mr. David Sanders, Mr. Adrian part 2. Part 1 children are those who find their way into Hermon, Lady Short, rh Clare surveys, and part 2 children are those about whom local Holmes, Paul Simpson, David authorities have to do something. Part 1 children are Howarth, David Spink, Bob privileged in the Bill because they have their own targets Hughes, Simon Stunell, Andrew and the child poverty commission and so on. That Huhne, Chris Swinson, Jo 427 Child Poverty Bill9 DECEMBER 2009 Child Poverty Bill 428

Teather, Sarah Willott, Jenny Heyes, David Michael, rh Alun Webb, Steve Wilson, Sammy Hill, rh Keith Miliband, rh David Williams, Hywel Younger-Ross, Richard Hillier, Meg Miliband, rh Edward Williams, Mark Hodge, rh Margaret Miller, Andrew Williams, Mr. Roger Tellers for the Ayes: Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon Mitchell, Mr. Austin Williams, Stephen John Hemming and Hoey, Kate Moffat, Anne Willis, Mr. Phil Mr. Andy Reed Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey Moffatt, Laura Hope, Phil Mole, Chris NOES Hopkins, Kelvin Moon, Mrs. Madeleine Howarth, rh Mr. George Morden, Jessica Abbott, Ms Diane Crausby, Mr. David Howells, rh Dr. Kim Morgan, Julie Ainger, Nick Creagh, Mary Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay Morley, rh Mr. Elliot Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas Cruddas, Jon Humble, Mrs. Joan Mountford, Kali Allen, Mr. Graham Cryer, Mrs. Ann Hutton, rh Mr. John Mudie, Mr. George Anderson, Mr. David Cummings, John Iddon, Dr. Brian Murphy, Mr. Denis Anderson, Janet Cunningham, Mr. Jim Illsley, Mr. Eric Murphy, rh Mr. Jim Armstrong, rh Hilary Cunningham, Tony Ingram, rh Mr. Adam Murphy, rh Mr. Paul Atkins, Charlotte David, Mr. Wayne Irranca-Davies, Huw Naysmith, Dr. Doug Austin, Mr. Ian Davidson, Mr. Ian Jackson, Glenda Norris, Dan Austin, John Davies, Mr. Dai Jenkins, Mr. Brian O’Brien, rh Mr. Mike Bailey, Mr. Adrian Davies, Mr. Quentin Johnson, Ms Diana O’Hara, Mr. Edward Bain, Mr. William Dean, Mrs. Janet R. Olner, Mr. Bill Banks, Gordon Denham, rh Mr. John Jones, Helen Osborne, Sandra Barlow, Ms Celia Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit Jones, Mr. Kevan Owen, Albert Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Dismore, Mr. Andrew Jones, Mr. Martyn Palmer, Dr. Nick Battle, rh John Dobbin, Jim Joyce, Mr. Eric Plaskitt, Mr. James Bayley, Hugh Dobson, rh Frank Keeble, Ms Sally Pope, Mr. Greg Beckett, rh Margaret Donohoe, Mr. Brian Keeley, Barbara Pound, Stephen Begg, Miss Anne H. Keen, Alan Prentice, Bridget Bell, Sir Stuart Doran, Mr. Frank Kelly, rh Ruth Prentice, Mr. Gordon Benn, rh Hilary Drew, Mr. David Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq Prescott, rh Mr. John Benton, Mr. Joe Eagle, Angela Kidney, Mr. David Primarolo, rh Dawn Berry, Roger Eagle, Maria Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter Prosser, Gwyn Betts, Mr. Clive Efford, Clive Knight, rh Jim Purchase, Mr. Ken Blackman, Liz Ellman, Mrs. Louise Kumar, Dr. Ashok Purnell, rh James Blackman-Woods, Dr. Engel, Natascha Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Rammell, Bill Roberta Ennis, Jeff Lammy, rh Mr. David Reed, Mr. Andy Blears, rh Hazel Farrelly, Paul Laxton, Mr. Bob Reed, Mr. Jamie Blizzard, Mr. Bob Field, rh Mr. Frank Lazarowicz, Mark Reid, rh John Blunkett, rh Mr. David Fitzpatrick, Jim Lepper, David Riordan, Mrs. Linda Borrow, Mr. David S. Flint, rh Caroline Levitt, Tom Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben Flynn, Paul Lewis, Mr. Ivan Rooney, Mr. Terry Brennan, Kevin Follett, Barbara Linton, Martin Roy, Mr. Frank Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas Foster, Michael Jabez Lloyd, Tony Ruane, Chris Brown, Mr. Russell (Hastings and Rye) Love, Mr. Andrew Ruddock, Joan Browne, rh Des Francis, Dr. Hywel Lucas, Ian Russell, Christine Bryant, Chris Gapes, Mike Mackinlay, Andrew Ryan, rh Joan Burden, Richard Gardiner, Barry Mactaggart, Fiona Salter, Martin Burgon, Colin George, rh Mr. Bruce Mahmood, Mr. Khalid Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad Butler, Ms Dawn Gerrard, Mr. Neil Malik, Mr. Shahid Seabeck, Alison Byers, rh Mr. Stephen Gilroy, Linda Mallaber, Judy Sharma, Mr. Virendra Caborn, rh Mr. Richard Goggins, rh Paul Mann, John Sheerman, Mr. Barry Cairns, David Goodman, Helen Marris, Rob Sheridan, Jim Campbell, Mr. Alan Griffith, Nia Marsden, Mr. Gordon Simon, Mr. Siôn Campbell, Mr. Ronnie Griffiths, Nigel Martlew, Mr. Eric Singh, Mr. Marsha Cawsey, Mr. Ian Grogan, Mr. John McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Skinner, Mr. Dennis Challen, Colin Gwynne, Andrew McCabe, Steve Slaughter, Mr. Andy Chapman, Ben Hain, rh Mr. Peter McCarthy, Kerry Smith, rh Mr. Andrew Chaytor, Mr. David Hall, Mr. Mike McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Smith, Ms Angela C. Clapham, Mr. Michael Hall, Patrick McCartney, rh Mr. Ian (Sheffield, Hillsborough) Clark, Ms Katy Hamilton, Mr. David McDonagh, Siobhain Smith, rh Angela E. Clark, Paul Hamilton, Mr. Fabian McDonnell, John (Basildon) Clarke, rh Mr. Charles Hanson, rh Mr. David McFadden, rh Mr. Pat Smith, Geraldine Clarke,rhMr.Tom Harman, rh Ms McGovern, Mr. Jim Smith, rh Jacqui Clelland, Mr. David Harriet McGuire, rh Mrs. Anne Snelgrove, Anne Coaker, Mr. Vernon Harris, Mr. Tom McIsaac, Shona Soulsby, Sir Peter Coffey, Ann Havard, Mr. Dai McKechin, Ann Southworth, Helen Cohen, Harry Healey, rh John McKenna, Rosemary Spellar, rh Mr. John Connarty, Michael Hendrick, Mr. Mark Meacher, rh Mr. Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Cook, Frank Hepburn, Mr. Stephen Michael Stewart, Ian Cooper, rh Yvette Hesford, Stephen Meale, Mr. Alan Stoate, Dr. Howard Cousins, Jim Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia Merron, Gillian Strang, rh Dr. Gavin 429 Child Poverty Bill9 DECEMBER 2009 Child Poverty Bill 430

Straw, rh Mr. Jack Wareing, Mr. Robert Green, Damian Penrose, John Stringer, Graham N. Greening, Justine Pickles, Mr. Eric Stuart, Ms Gisela Watson, Mr. Tom Grieve, Mr. Dominic Prisk, Mr. Mark Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry Watts, Mr. Dave Hague, rh Mr. William Pugh, Dr. John Tami, Mark Wicks, rh Malcolm Hammond, Mr. Philip Randall, Mr. John Taylor, David Williams, rh Mr. Alan Hammond, Stephen Redwood, rh Mr. John Thornberry, Emily Wilson, Phil Hancock, Mr. Mike Reid, Mr. Alan Todd, Mr. Mark Winnick, Mr. David Harper, Mr. Mark Rennie, Willie Touhig, rh Mr. Don Wood, Mike Harris, Dr. Evan Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Trickett, Jon Woolas, Mr. Phil Harvey, Nick Robathan, Mr. Andrew Truswell, Mr. Paul Wright, David Heald, Mr. Oliver Robertson, Hugh Turner, Mr. Neil Wright, Mr. Iain Heath, Mr. David Robinson, Mrs. Iris Twigg, Derek Wright, Dr. Tony Heathcoat-Amory, rh Robinson, rh Mr. Peter Ussher, Kitty Wyatt, Derek Mr. David Rogerson, Dan Vis, Dr. Rudi Tellers for the Noes: Hemming, John Rosindell, Andrew Waltho, Lynda Lyn Brown and Hendry, Charles Rowen, Paul Ward, Claire Mr. John Heppell Herbert, Nick Ruffley, Mr. David Hermon, Lady Russell, Bob Hoey, Kate Sanders, Mr. Adrian Question accordingly negatived. Hogg, rh Mr. Douglas Scott, Mr. Lee Hollobone, Mr. Philip Selous, Andrew Holloway, Mr. Adam Shapps, Grant New Clause 2 Holmes, Paul Simmonds, Mark Horam, Mr. John Simpson, David THE REDUCTION IN THE CAUSES OF POVERTY TARGETS Howarth, David Simpson, Mr. Keith ‘The Secretary of State shall make regulations setting out Howarth, Mr. Gerald Smith, Chloe reduction in the causes of poverty targets.’.—(Andrew Selous.) Howell, John Soames, Mr. Nicholas Brought up, and read the First time. Hughes, Simon Spelman, Mrs. Caroline Hunter, Mark Spicer, Sir Michael Question put, That the clause be read a Second time:— Jack, rh Mr. Michael Spink, Bob The House divided: Ayes 206, Noes 289. Jenkin, Mr. Bernard Spring, Mr. Richard Jones, Mr. David Stanley, rh Sir John Division No. 20] [4.47 pm Keetch, Mr. Paul Steen, Mr. Anthony Kennedy, rh Mr. Charles Streeter, Mr. Gary AYES Kirkbride, Miss Julie Stuart, Mr. Graham Afriyie, Adam Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey Knight, rh Mr. Greg Stunell, Andrew Ainsworth, Mr. Peter Cox, Mr. Geoffrey Kramer, Susan Swayne, Mr. Desmond Alexander, Danny Curry, rh Mr. David Laing, Mrs. Eleanor Swinson, Jo Amess, Mr. David Davey, Mr. Edward Lait, Mrs. Jacqui Swire, Mr. Hugo Ancram, rh Mr. Michael Davies, David T.C. Lancaster, Mr. Mark Syms, Mr. Robert Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James (Monmouth) Laws, Mr. David Tapsell, Sir Peter Atkinson, Mr. Peter Davies, Philip Leech, Mr. John Taylor, Dr. Richard Bacon, Mr. Richard Davis, rh David Leigh, Mr. Edward Teather, Sarah Baldry, Tony Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver Tredinnick, David Baron, Mr. John Dodds, Mr. Nigel Lewis, Dr. Julian Turner, Mr. Andrew Barrett, John Donaldson, rh Mr. Jeffrey Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Tyrie, Mr. Andrew Beith, rh Sir Alan M. Ian Vara, Mr. Shailesh Benyon, Mr. Richard Duddridge, James Lidington, Mr. David Walker, Mr. Charles Beresford, Sir Paul Duncan, Alan Lilley, rh Mr. Peter Wallace, Mr. Ben Blunt, Mr. Crispin Dunne, Mr. Philip Loughton, Tim Waterson, Mr. Nigel Bone, Mr. Peter Ellwood, Mr. Tobias Luff, Peter Watkinson, Angela Boswell, Mr. Tim Evans, Mr. Nigel Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew Webb, Steve Brady, Mr. Graham Evennett, Mr. David Main, Anne Whittingdale, Mr. John Brake, Tom Fallon, Mr. Michael Malins, Mr. Humfrey Widdecombe, rh Miss Brazier, Mr. Julian Farron, Tim May, rh Mrs. Theresa Ann Breed, Mr. Colin Featherstone, Lynne McCrea, Dr. William Wiggin, Bill Brokenshire, James Field, rh Mr. Frank McIntosh, Miss Anne Williams, Mark Brooke, Annette Field, Mr. Mark McLoughlin, rh Mr. Williams, Mr. Roger Browne, Mr. Jeremy Foster, Mr. Don Patrick Williams, Stephen Browning, Angela Francois, Mr. Mark Mitchell, Mr. Andrew Willis, Mr. Phil Burns, Mr. Simon Fraser, Christopher Moore, Mr. Michael Willott, Jenny Burrowes, Mr. David Gale, Mr. Roger Moss, Mr. Malcolm Wilson, Mr. Rob Burstow, Mr. Paul Garnier, Mr. Edward Mulholland, Greg Winterton, Ann Burt, Alistair Gauke, Mr. David Newmark, Mr. Brooks Winterton, Sir Nicholas Butterfill, Sir John George, Andrew O’Brien, Mr. Stephen Wright, Jeremy Öpik, Lembit Cable, Dr. Vincent Gibb, Mr. Nick Young, rh Sir George Osborne, Mr. George Cameron, rh Mr. David Gidley, Sandra Younger-Ross, Richard Ottaway, Richard Campbell, Mr. Gregory Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl Paterson, Mr. Owen Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Goldsworthy, Julia Tellers for the Ayes: Pelling, Mr. Andrew Michael Fabricant and Carmichael, Mr. Alistair Goodman, Mr. Paul Penning, Mike Mr. Stephen Crabb Clark, Greg Goodwill, Mr. Robert Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth Gray, Mr. James 431 Child Poverty Bill9 DECEMBER 2009 Child Poverty Bill 432

NOES Joyce, Mr. Eric Owen, Albert Keeble, Ms Sally Palmer, Dr. Nick Abbott, Ms Diane Davies, Mr. Quentin Keeley, Barbara Plaskitt, Mr. James Ainger, Nick Dean, Mrs. Janet Keen, Alan Pope, Mr. Greg Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas Denham, rh Mr. John Kelly, rh Ruth Pound, Stephen Allen, Mr. Graham Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq Prentice, Bridget Anderson, Mr. David Dismore, Mr. Andrew Kidney, Mr. David Prentice, Mr. Gordon Anderson, Janet Dobbin, Jim Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter Prescott, rh Mr. John Armstrong, rh Hilary Dobson, rh Frank Knight, rh Jim Price, Adam Atkins, Charlotte Donohoe, Mr. Brian H. Kumar, Dr. Ashok Primarolo, rh Dawn Austin, Mr. Ian Doran, Mr. Frank Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Prosser, Gwyn Austin, John Drew, Mr. David Lammy, rh Mr. David Purchase, Mr. Ken Bailey, Mr. Adrian Eagle, Angela Laxton, Mr. Bob Purnell, rh James Bain, Mr. William Eagle, Maria Lazarowicz, Mark Reed, Mr. Andy Banks, Gordon Efford, Clive Lepper, David Reed, Mr. Jamie Barlow, Ms Celia Ellman, Mrs. Louise Levitt, Tom Reid, rh John Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Engel, Natascha Lewis, Mr. Ivan Riordan, Mrs. Linda Battle, rh John Ennis, Jeff Linton, Martin Robertson, Angus Bayley, Hugh Farrelly, Paul Lloyd, Tony Rooney, Mr. Terry Beckett, rh Margaret Fitzpatrick, Jim Love, Mr. Andrew Roy, Mr. Frank Begg, Miss Anne Flint, rh Caroline Lucas, Ian Ruane, Chris Bell, Sir Stuart Flynn, Paul Mackinlay, Andrew Ruddock, Joan Benn, rh Hilary Follett, Barbara MacNeil, Mr. Angus Russell, Christine Benton, Mr. Joe Foster, Michael Jabez Mactaggart, Fiona Ryan, rh Joan Berry, Roger (Hastings and Rye) Mahmood, Mr. Khalid Salter, Martin Betts, Mr. Clive Francis, Dr. Hywel Malik, Mr. Shahid Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad Blackman, Liz Gapes, Mike Mallaber, Judy Seabeck, Alison Blackman-Woods, Dr. Gardiner, Barry Mann, John Sharma, Mr. Virendra Roberta George, rh Mr. Bruce Marris, Rob Sheerman, Mr. Barry Blears, rh Hazel Gerrard, Mr. Neil Marsden, Mr. Gordon Sheridan, Jim Blizzard, Mr. Bob Gilroy, Linda Martlew, Mr. Eric Simon, Mr. Siôn Blunkett, rh Mr. David Goggins, rh Paul Mason, John Singh, Mr. Marsha Borrow, Mr. David S. Goodman, Helen McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Skinner, Mr. Dennis Brennan, Kevin Griffith, Nia McCabe, Steve Slaughter, Mr. Andy Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas Griffiths, Nigel McCarthy, Kerry Smith, rh Mr. Andrew Brown, Mr. Russell Grogan, Mr. John McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Smith, Ms Angela C. Browne, rh Des Gwynne, Andrew McCartney, rh Mr. Ian (Sheffield, Hillsborough) Bryant, Chris Hain, rh Mr. Peter McDonagh, Siobhain Smith, rh Angela E. (Basildon) Burden, Richard Hall, Mr. Mike McDonnell, John Smith, Geraldine Burgon, Colin Hamilton, Mr. David McFadden, rh Mr. Pat Smith, rh Jacqui Butler, Ms Dawn Hamilton, Mr. Fabian McFall, rh John Snelgrove, Anne Byers, rh Mr. Stephen Hanson, rh Mr. David McGovern, Mr. Jim Soulsby, Sir Peter Caborn, rh Mr. Richard Harman, rh Ms Harriet McGuire, rh Mrs. Anne Southworth, Helen Cairns, David Harris, Mr. Tom McIsaac, Shona Spellar, rh Mr. John Campbell, Mr. Alan Havard, Mr. Dai McKechin, Ann Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Campbell, Mr. Ronnie Healey, rh John McKenna, Rosemary Stewart, Ian Cawsey, Mr. Ian Hendrick, Mr. Mark Meacher, rh Mr. Michael Stoate, Dr. Howard Challen, Colin Hepburn, Mr. Stephen Meale, Mr. Alan Strang, rh Dr. Gavin Chapman, Ben Hesford, Stephen Merron, Gillian Straw, rh Mr. Jack Chaytor, Mr. David Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia Michael, rh Alun Stringer, Graham Clapham, Mr. Michael Heyes, David Miliband, rh David Stuart, Ms Gisela Clark, Ms Katy Hill, rh Keith Miliband, rh Edward Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry Clarke, rh Mr. Charles Hillier, Meg Miller, Andrew Tami, Mark Clarke,rhMr.Tom Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon Mitchell, Mr. Austin Taylor, Ms Dari Clelland, Mr. David Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey Moffat, Anne Taylor, David Coaker, Mr. Vernon Hope, Phil Moffatt, Laura Thornberry, Emily Coffey, Ann Hopkins, Kelvin Mole, Chris Todd, Mr. Mark Cohen, Harry Howarth, rh Mr. George Moon, Mrs. Madeleine Touhig, rh Mr. Don Connarty, Michael Howells, rh Dr. Kim Morden, Jessica Trickett, Jon Cook, Frank Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay Morgan, Julie Cooper, rh Yvette Humble, Mrs. Joan Truswell, Mr. Paul Corbyn, Jeremy Hutton, rh Mr. John Morley, rh Mr. Elliot Turner, Mr. Neil Cousins, Jim Iddon, Dr. Brian Mountford, Kali Twigg, Derek Crausby, Mr. David Illsley, Mr. Eric Mudie, Mr. George Ussher, Kitty Creagh, Mary Ingram, rh Mr. Adam Murphy, Mr. Denis Vis, Dr. Rudi Cruddas, Jon Irranca-Davies, Huw Murphy, rh Mr. Jim Waltho, Lynda Cryer, Mrs. Ann Jackson, Glenda Murphy, rh Mr. Paul Wareing, Mr. Robert Cummings, John Jenkins, Mr. Brian Naysmith, Dr. Doug N. Cunningham, Mr. Jim Johnson, Ms Diana R. Norris, Dan Watson, Mr. Tom Cunningham, Tony Jones, Helen O’Brien, rh Mr. Mike Watts, Mr. Dave David, Mr. Wayne Jones, Mr. Kevan O’Hara, Mr. Edward Wicks, rh Malcolm Davidson, Mr. Ian Jones, Lynne Olner, Mr. Bill Williams, rh Mr. Alan Davies, Mr. Dai Jones, Mr. Martyn Osborne, Sandra Williams, Hywel 433 Child Poverty Bill9 DECEMBER 2009 Child Poverty Bill 434

Wilson, Phil Wright, Dr. Tony Harvey, Nick Pugh, Dr. John Winnick, Mr. David Wyatt, Derek Heald, Mr. Oliver Randall, Mr. John Wood, Mike Tellers for the Noes: Heath, Mr. David Redwood, rh Mr. John Wright, David Lyn Brown and Heathcoat-Amory, rh Reid, Mr. Alan Wright, Mr. Iain Mr. John Heppell Mr. David Rennie, Willie Hemming, John Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Hendry, Charles Robathan, Mr. Andrew Question accordingly negatived. Herbert, Nick Robertson, Angus Hermon, Lady Robertson, Hugh New Clause 3 Hogg, rh Mr. Douglas Robinson, Mrs. Iris Hollobone, Mr. Philip Robinson, rh Mr. Peter Holloway, Mr. Adam Rogerson, Dan 2010 TARGET Holmes, Paul Rosindell, Andrew ‘(1) The Secretary of State must, before the end of the period Horam, Mr. John Rowen, Paul of three months beginning with the day on which the Act is Howarth, David Russell, Bob passed, publish and lay before Parliament a report setting out an Howarth, Mr. Gerald Sanders, Mr. Adrian assessment of progress made towards meeting the 2010 target. Howell, John Scott, Mr. Lee (2) The 2010 target is that in the financial year beginning with Hughes, Simon Selous, Andrew 1 April 2010, fewer than 1.7 million children live in households Hunter, Mark Shapps, Grant that fall within the relevant income group as defined by Jack, rh Mr. Michael Shepherd, Mr. Richard section 2(2).’.—(Andrew Selous.) Jackson, Mr. Stewart Simmonds, Mark Brought up, and read the First time. Jenkin, Mr. Bernard Simpson, David Jones, Mr. David Simpson, Mr. Keith Question put, That the clause be read a Second time. Jones, Lynne Smith, Chloe The House divided: Ayes 214, Noes 281. Keetch, Mr. Paul Soames, Mr. Nicholas Kennedy, rh Mr. Charles Spelman, Mrs. Caroline Division No. 21] [5.1 pm Kirkbride, Miss Julie Spicer, Sir Michael Knight, rh Mr. Greg Spink, Bob AYES Laing, Mrs. Eleanor Spring, Mr. Richard Afriyie, Adam Davey, Mr. Edward Lait, Mrs. Jacqui Stanley, rh Sir John Ainsworth, Mr. Peter Davies, David T.C. Lancaster, Mr. Mark Steen, Mr. Anthony Alexander, Danny (Monmouth) Laws, Mr. David Streeter, Mr. Gary Amess, Mr. David Davies, Philip Leech, Mr. John Stuart, Mr. Graham Ancram, rh Mr. Michael Davis, rh David Leigh, Mr. Edward Stunell, Andrew Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver Swayne, Mr. Desmond Atkinson, Mr. Peter Dodds, Mr. Nigel Lewis, Dr. Julian Swinson, Jo Bacon, Mr. Richard Donaldson, rh Mr. Jeffrey M. Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian Swire, Mr. Hugo Baldry, Tony Drew, Mr. David Lidington, Mr. David Syms, Mr. Robert Baron, Mr. John Duddridge, James Lilley, rh Mr. Peter Tapsell, Sir Peter Barrett, John Duncan, Alan Loughton, Tim Taylor, Dr. Richard Beith, rh Sir Alan Dunne, Mr. Philip Luff, Peter Teather, Sarah Bellingham, Mr. Henry Ellwood, Mr. Tobias Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew Tredinnick, David Benyon, Mr. Richard Evans, Mr. Nigel MacNeil, Mr. Angus Turner, Mr. Andrew Beresford, Sir Paul Evennett, Mr. David Main, Anne Tyrie, Mr. Andrew Blunt, Mr. Crispin Fabricant, Michael Malins, Mr. Humfrey Vara, Mr. Shailesh Bone, Mr. Peter Fallon, Mr. Michael Mason, John Walker, Mr. Charles Boswell, Mr. Tim Farron, Tim Mates, rh Mr. Michael Wallace, Mr. Ben Bottomley, Peter Featherstone, Lynne McCrea, Dr. William Waterson, Mr. Nigel Brady, Mr. Graham Field, Mr. Mark McIntosh, Miss Anne Watkinson, Angela Brake, Tom Foster, Mr. Don McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick Whittingdale, Mr. John Brazier, Mr. Julian Fox, Dr. Liam Mitchell, Mr. Andrew Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann Breed, Mr. Colin Francois, Mr. Mark Moore, Mr. Michael Williams, Hywel Brokenshire, James Fraser, Christopher Moss, Mr. Malcolm Williams, Mark Brooke, Annette Garnier, Mr. Edward Mulholland, Greg Williams, Mr. Roger Browne, Mr. Jeremy Gauke, Mr. David Mundell, David Williams, Stephen Browning, Angela George, Andrew Newmark, Mr. Brooks Willis, Mr. Phil Burns, Mr. Simon Gibb, Mr. Nick O’Brien, Mr. Stephen Willott, Jenny Burrowes, Mr. David Gidley, Sandra Öpik, Lembit Wilson, Mr. Rob Burstow, Mr. Paul Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl Osborne, Mr. George Winterton, Ann Burt, Alistair Goldsworthy, Julia Ottaway, Richard Winterton, Sir Nicholas Butterfill, Sir John Goodman, Mr. Paul Paterson, Mr. Owen Wright, Jeremy Pelling, Mr. Andrew Cable, Dr. Vincent Goodwill, Mr. Robert Young, rh Sir George Penning, Mike Cameron, rh Mr. David Gray, Mr. James Younger-Ross, Richard Campbell, Mr. Gregory Green, Damian Penrose, John Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Greening, Justine Pickles, Mr. Eric Tellers for the Ayes: Carmichael, Mr. Alistair Grieve, Mr. Dominic Price, Adam Mr. Stephen Crabb and Clark, Greg Hague, rh Mr. William Prisk, Mr. Mark Bill Wiggin Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth Hammond, Stephen Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey Hancock, Mr. Mike NOES Corbyn, Jeremy Hands, Mr. Greg Abbott, Ms Diane Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas Cox, Mr. Geoffrey Harper, Mr. Mark Ainger, Nick Allen, Mr. Graham Curry, rh Mr. David Harris, Dr. Evan 435 Child Poverty Bill9 DECEMBER 2009 Child Poverty Bill 436

Anderson, Mr. David Eagle, Maria Laxton, Mr. Bob Purchase, Mr. Ken Anderson, Janet Efford, Clive Lazarowicz, Mark Purnell, rh James Armstrong, rh Hilary Ellman, Mrs. Louise Lepper, David Reed, Mr. Andy Austin, Mr. Ian Engel, Natascha Levitt, Tom Reed, Mr. Jamie Austin, John Ennis, Jeff Lewis, Mr. Ivan Reid, rh John Bailey, Mr. Adrian Farrelly, Paul Linton, Martin Riordan, Mrs. Linda Bain, Mr. William Fitzpatrick, Jim Lloyd, Tony Rooney, Mr. Terry Banks, Gordon Flint, rh Caroline Love, Mr. Andrew Roy, Lindsay Barlow, Ms Celia Flynn, Paul Lucas, Ian Ruane, Chris Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Follett, Barbara Mackinlay, Andrew Ruddock, Joan Battle, rh John Foster, Michael Jabez Mactaggart, Fiona Russell, Christine Bayley, Hugh (Hastings and Rye) Mahmood, Mr. Khalid Ryan, rh Joan Beckett, rh Margaret Francis, Dr. Hywel Malik, Mr. Shahid Salter, Martin Begg, Miss Anne Gapes, Mike Mallaber, Judy Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad Bell, Sir Stuart Gardiner, Barry Mann, John Seabeck, Alison Benn, rh Hilary George, rh Mr. Bruce Marris, Rob Sharma, Mr. Virendra Benton, Mr. Joe Gerrard, Mr. Neil Marsden, Mr. Gordon Sheerman, Mr. Barry Berry, Roger Gilroy, Linda Martlew, Mr. Eric Simon, Mr. Siôn Betts, Mr. Clive Goggins, rh Paul McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Singh, Mr. Marsha Blackman, Liz Goodman, Helen McCabe, Steve Skinner, Mr. Dennis Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta Griffith, Nia McCarthy, Kerry Slaughter, Mr. Andy Blears, rh Hazel Griffiths, Nigel McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Smith, rh Mr. Andrew Blizzard, Mr. Bob Grogan, Mr. John McCartney, rh Mr. Ian Smith, Ms Angela C. Blunkett, rh Mr. David Gwynne, Andrew McDonagh, Siobhain (Sheffield, Hillsborough) Borrow, Mr. David S. Hain, rh Mr. Peter McDonnell, John Smith, rh Angela E. (Basildon) Brennan, Kevin Hall, Mr. Mike McFadden, rh Mr. Pat Smith, Geraldine Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas Hall, Patrick McFall, rh John Smith, rh Jacqui Brown, Mr. Russell Hamilton, Mr. David McGovern, Mr. Jim Snelgrove, Anne Browne, rh Des Hamilton, Mr. Fabian McGuire, rh Mrs. Anne Soulsby, Sir Peter Bryant, Chris Hanson, rh Mr. David McIsaac, Shona Southworth, Helen Burden, Richard Harman, rh Ms Harriet McKechin, Ann Spellar, rh Mr. John Burgon, Colin Harris, Mr. Tom McKenna, Rosemary Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Butler, Ms Dawn Havard, Mr. Dai McNulty, rh Mr. Tony Stewart, Ian Byers, rh Mr. Stephen Healey, rh John Meacher, rh Mr. Michael Stoate, Dr. Howard Caborn, rh Mr. Richard Hendrick, Mr. Mark Meale, Mr. Alan Strang, rh Dr. Gavin Cairns, David Hepburn, Mr. Stephen Merron, Gillian Straw, rh Mr. Jack Campbell, Mr. Alan Hesford, Stephen Michael, rh Alun Stringer, Graham Campbell, Mr. Ronnie Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia Miliband, rh David Stuart, Ms Gisela Cawsey, Mr. Ian Heyes, David Miliband, rh Edward Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry Challen, Colin Hill, rh Keith Miller, Andrew Tami, Mark Chapman, Ben Hillier, Meg Mitchell, Mr. Austin Taylor, Ms Dari Chaytor, Mr. David Hodge, rh Margaret Moffat, Anne Taylor, David Clapham, Mr. Michael Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon Moffatt, Laura Thornberry, Emily Clark, Ms Katy Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey Mole, Chris Todd, Mr. Mark Clark, Paul Hope, Phil Moon, Mrs. Madeleine Touhig, rh Mr. Don Clarke, rh Mr. Charles Hopkins, Kelvin Morden, Jessica Trickett, Jon Clarke,rhMr.Tom Howarth, rh Mr. George Morgan, Julie Truswell, Mr. Paul Clelland, Mr. David Howells, rh Dr. Kim Morley, rh Mr. Elliot Coaker, Mr. Vernon Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay Mountford, Kali Turner, Mr. Neil Coffey, Ann Humble, Mrs. Joan Mudie, Mr. George Twigg, Derek Cohen, Harry Hutton, rh Mr. John Mullin, Mr. Chris Ussher, Kitty Connarty, Michael Iddon, Dr. Brian Murphy, Mr. Denis Vis, Dr. Rudi Cook, Frank Illsley, Mr. Eric Murphy, rh Mr. Jim Waltho, Lynda Cousins, Jim Ingram, rh Mr. Adam Murphy, rh Mr. Paul Ward, Claire Crausby, Mr. David Irranca-Davies, Huw Naysmith, Dr. Doug Wareing, Mr. Robert N. Cruddas, Jon Jackson, Glenda Norris, Dan Watson, Mr. Tom Cryer, Mrs. Ann Jenkins, Mr. Brian O’Brien, rh Mr. Mike Watts, Mr. Dave Cummings, John Johnson, Ms Diana R. O’Hara, Mr. Edward Wicks, rh Malcolm Cunningham, Mr. Jim Jones, Helen Olner, Mr. Bill Williams, rh Mr. Alan Cunningham, Tony Jones, Mr. Kevan Osborne, Sandra Wilson, Phil David, Mr. Wayne Jones, Mr. Martyn Owen, Albert Winnick, Mr. David Davidson, Mr. Ian Joyce, Mr. Eric Palmer, Dr. Nick Wood, Mike Davies, Mr. Dai Keeble, Ms Sally Plaskitt, Mr. James Wright, David Davies, Mr. Quentin Keeley, Barbara Pope, Mr. Greg Wright, Mr. Iain Pound, Stephen Dean, Mrs. Janet Keen, Alan Wright, Dr. Tony Prentice, Bridget Denham, rh Mr. John Kelly, rh Ruth Wyatt, Derek Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq Prentice, Mr. Gordon Prescott, rh Mr. John Dismore, Mr. Andrew Kidney, Mr. David Tellers for the Noes: Primarolo, rh Dawn Lyn Brown and Dobbin, Jim Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter Prosser, Gwyn Mr. John Heppell Dobson, rh Frank Knight, rh Jim Donohoe, Mr. Brian H. Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Doran, Mr. Frank Lammy, rh Mr. David Question accordingly negatived. 437 Child Poverty Bill9 DECEMBER 2009 Child Poverty Bill 438

New Clause 4 We considered those justifications, and offered our opinion on them. We do not believe that any offer sufficient justification for not including the duty to DUTY TO IMPLEMENT THE UK STRATEGY implement the strategy. The first, which was that the ‘The Secretary of State shall take such steps are are in his child poverty targets work and that there is therefore no reasonable opinion necessary to implement the UK strategy.’.— need for a duty, does not work, and we used the comparison (Dr. Evan Harris.) of the Disability Discrimination Act 1995—that although Brought up, and read the First time. many things are done to deliver the strategy, there was still a duty to deliver access for the disabled. For that Dr. Evan Harris: I beg to move, That the clause be reason, we believe that it does not seem sensible to make read a Second time. a distinction in this regard. In respect of the second justification that the Government Mr. Deputy Speaker: With this it will be convenient offered, we did not believe that requiring that duty to be to discuss the following: Government amendment 21. implemented would cause inflexibility because, in other Amendment 35, in clause 9, page 5, line 21, at end areas, a public authority is entitled to take account of insert— subsequent evidence or analysis when implementing a strategy. It cannot ignore such things just because it has ‘(ba) must consult the Children’s Commissioners for England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland,’. a duty to implement a strategy. We said: Amendment 27, page 5, line 22, leave out first ‘or’ “We note that in the Disability Discrimination Act a duty to and insert ‘families and’. implement coexists with a duty to prepare further accessibility strategies after the first one, and similarly in the Warm Homes Amendment 36, page 5, line 22, leave out first ‘or’ and Energy Conservation Act there is both a duty to implement and insert ‘and’. and a duty to assess progress and revise the strategy.” Amendment 28, in clause 22, page 14, line 1, leave out In respect of the Government’s third justification for first ‘or’ and insert ‘families and’. not implementing the strategy, we said that, while we welcomed the political accountability that is included in Dr. Harris: I shall be brief in speaking to this new the Bill, we did not clause on behalf of the Joint Committee on Human “consider such political accountability to be mutually exclusive Rights, which reported on the Bill on 10 November. with legal accountability” There are two sets of Liberal Democrat amendments in this group, the first of which, new clause 4, proposes to implement provision. We therefore recommend to that the Secretary of State should have a duty to implement both Houses that the duty to implement the child the strategy on child poverty reduction. The second poverty strategy be included, as we believe that that will set—amendments 35 and 36—is about consulting children “enhance opportunities to hold the Secretary of State accountable and the representatives of children. for failure to make progress towards the targets between now and 2020.” Let me deal with new clause 4 first. In our report, we identified that, unlike in what might be considered Given the debate that we have had about the 2010 comparable statutory regimes set out in legislation such targets, it would be a sign of political confidence on the as the Warm Homes and Energy Conservation Act 2000 part of the Minister and the Government if they were and the Disability Discrimination Act 1995, there is no to accept that they both should and could include the statutory duty in the Bill to implement the strategy. We duty in the Bill. engaged in correspondence with the Government to ask On the other amendments in my name and that of why that was. We support in principle having statutory the hon. Member for Hendon (Mr. Dismore), in duties to implement, as Parliament wishes, access to paragraph 1.57 of our report, we said: economic and social rights. That makes sense, as far as we are concerned, and we find it disappointing that “In our view the duties to consult children in the preparation of child poverty strategies are insufficiently precise, because they there is no such duty regarding the strategy. leave it to the discretion of the Secretary of State (or Scottish Ministers/Northern Ireland department) as to whether or not to 5.15 pm consult children directly at all: they could choose to consult organisations working with or representing children instead. We The Government offered three justifications for not recommend that the duty to consult be amended to give better including a duty to implement the strategy. The first effect to the right recognised in international human rights law to was that a separate part of the Bill participate in the relevant decision-making process, by requiring consultation with both children and organisations working with “places a binding duty on the Secretary of State to meet the child or representing them, and by requiring consultation with the poverty targets, which is ‘the strongest possible incentive’ for the relevant Children’s Commissioner.” Government and their partners to deliver a strategy that over time achieves the targets.” Amendment 36 therefore proposes the word “and” be The second was that substituted for “or” when talking about children and “including a duty to implement the strategy risks tying the the organisations that represent them. Amendment 35 Government to measures which subsequent evidence or analysis proposes inserting a new subsection in clause 9 that shows to be ineffective or inappropriate.” would require consultation with the Children’s The third was that Commissioners for England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. There does not seem to be any good reason not “the Bill makes provision for political and public accountability for not implementing the strategy, by requiring that the Secretary to require consultation with them, as they have been set of State’s annual reports to Parliament must state whether the up as experts in, and champions of, children’s rights. strategy has been implemented in full, and, if not, the reasons for Members of the Committee do not believe that that this.” would create inflexibility with regard to the bodies that 439 Child Poverty Bill9 DECEMBER 2009 Child Poverty Bill 440 the Government consult. The amendment does not say reach the age of 5, we must absolutely ensure that child that “only” those groups be consulted, but just requires care is in place. It has to be in place before school, on that they are consulted. occasions, if there is a journey to work, after work, and, Given the political sensibilities about the appointment particularly importantly, in the holidays. Part-time and of the Children’s Commissioner, it would show appropriate flexible work is incredibly important for that group of confidence by the Government to include a duty to parents, many of whom seek to enter the labour market consult that person, whom they have gone to such great for the first time and are unable to make the step to lengths to appoint after creating the post in a welcome full-time work, although they may aspire to it. move. It is worth noting that there has not been universal Those are the bases for the new clause and amendments, success on child care as far as the Government are and I hope that the House will support them. concerned. In fact, in 2008, more child care places closed down than were created. The child minder work force is in steep decline, and many private sector child Andrew Selous: I have looked carefully at new clause 4 care providers are having great difficulties. Although I and read the relevant comments in the Joint Committee’s welcome the inclusion of child care, I think that the report on the Bill, and I am not enamoured of the new Government need to address some significant issues to clause. It should be up to the Government to decide ensure that child care is adequate and that separated how to achieve their objectives. As the Minister said in parents in particular can get into work. Committee, the Bill includes clear targets. The Government will be held to account in the House, by way of the Helen Goodman: I shall speak to new clause 4 and annual statement to Parliament, and I expect that occasion amendments 21, 27, 28, 35 and 36, which have been to be well attended and one on which the relevant grouped because they all relate to UK strategies. Minister will be pressed very hard if sufficient progress has not been made. The press and media, the lobby I shall respond to the points that the hon. Member groups that take an interest in these matters, the charities for Oxford, West and Abingdon (Dr. Harris) made on and many people in the voluntary sector will ensure that new clause 4, which seeks to impose a duty on the a good amount of pressure and focus is put on the Secretary of State to implement the measures in a UK targets. child poverty strategy.Like the hon. Member for South-West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous), I do not believe that the It is a worrying development to bring judges into the proposed change is necessary. The Bill sets four challenges, Bill to the extent that new clause 4 would do, so I am which, if met, would represent a considerable achievement. afraid that I am not with the hon. Gentleman on the The legal duty to meet those targets is absolute, and it is new clause. However, I am more inclined to support supported by the duty in clause 8 to publish and lay amendments 35 and 36. It is right that the Government before Parliament a strategy setting out the measures should speak to children. I find it hard to conceive that that the Secretary of State proposes to take to meet local or central Government could have any set of them. policies or provide any service without speaking to the people for whom those services are provided or for The intention is clear: the strategy will drive forward whom those policies are designed to assist. action to achieve the targets. If there is a failure by the Government to take sufficient action, as detailed in the My hon. Friends the Members for South-West strategy, the targets will not be met and that may result Hertfordshire (Mr. Gauke) and for Rochford and Southend, in a judicial review. That clearly places very strong East (James Duddridge) and I tabled amendments 27 pressure on the Government to implement the measures and 28, which I think are superior to the hon. Gentleman’s set out in a strategy. There is a significant difference amendments, because they would require the Government between this legislation and the legislation that the hon. to speak not only to children, as his amendment would, Member for Oxford, West and Abingdon noted. The but to the families. I absolutely understand the focus on Warm Homes and Energy Conservation Act 2000 and children and child poverty, but it would be strange to go the Disability Discrimination Act 1995 require the to a poor family—the Government measure poverty by Government to implement strategies to achieve their considering the poverty of parents or guardians as well goals, but they do not contain legally binding targets, as that of their children—and speak to the children but unlike the Bill before us, which does contain such targets. not to their parents. That would not be the right approach, The Joint Committee on Human Rights stated that it and amendment 27 and 28 would remedy that omission. is not incompatible to have both a duty to meet the Government amendment 21 will ensure that child targets and a duty to implement the strategy. I understand care is included in the Bill. That very welcome concession the theoretical point, but in practice there is no need for is one of the few that the Government have made as a both duties. In fact, a duty to implement the strategy result of the debates in Committee, and it is good to could be unhelpful and have unintended consequences know that all our labours were not wholly in vain in that distract us from the important goals in the Bill. Committee. Such a duty risks binding the Government to take It is worth noting in passing that under the Welfare measures that may turn out to be less effective than was Reform Act 2009, the Government sought to impose originally envisaged, or that could have negative outcomes sanctions on lone parents when their children were only that damage progress towards the target. three years old and that the Conservative party made The Joint Committee is not convinced that the inclusion sure that the age was raised to five, when children go to of a duty to implement the strategy necessarily results school, as that is quite young enough to start imposing in inflexibility. However, surely the hon. Gentleman can sanctions on parents. However, the point about child see that the Government would be put in an extremely care is important. If we are to require lone parents— difficult position. If the Government did not take action separated parents—to seek work when their children to implement measures that, at that point in time, they 441 Child Poverty Bill9 DECEMBER 2009 Child Poverty Bill 442 understood to be harmful or ineffective, they would be it include parents of grown-up children? The problem is infringing the duty to implement the strategy; but, if the that the word “families” can apply to such a wide Government did take action in the circumstances, variety of groups of people that in effect this would implementing the strategy could be argued to be an become an obligation to consult the general public at improper use of public money, because they would have large. I am sure that that is not what the hon. Member implemented a strategy that had been discovered to be for South-West Bedfordshire intends. ineffective. As a consequence, the Government would need to lay Andrew Selous: I understand what the hon. Lady down a new strategy every time data emerged suggesting says, but I remind her that in the Government’s own that a measure was not working. Apart from the Bills they often have to go back and tidy up some of the impracticalities that would clearly result from that, the drafting, so I do not take that as a massive minus point practical effect would be that attention would be diverted on our part. from the real object, which is bringing down child On the central point, does the hon. Lady agree that it poverty. A far more sensible approach is contained in is slightly strange to go into a household—let us call it clause 8, which requires that the strategy must be revised that for a moment—to speak to the children without and refreshed at least every three years, ensuring that any reference to the people responsible for them, be new developments and evidence about the best way to they the guardian, both parents or one parent in the case tackle child poverty are constantly taken into account of those living with a separated parent? If the intention in the development of future strategies, which gives the is to speak to children, to which she says the Government flexibility that we will need. are committed, it would be natural to speak to the families in which those children live as well. 5.30 pm Helen Goodman: Obviously one would not want to The Bill also demands accountability for action that consult children without the permission of their parents. the Government have and have not taken. If the most That would not be appropriate, but we do want to hear recent UK strategy has not been implemented in full, the views of children specifically. The JCHR made clause 13 requires that the annual report must describe specific reference to article 12 of the UN convention on the respect in which it has not been implemented and the rights of the child, and the attractive element of the the reasons for this. Parliament will then hold the amendments is the opportunity to give local authorities Government to account and determine whether they and the Secretary of State the chance to consult have acted appropriately. I therefore suggest that the organisations and children. amendment risks undermining Parliament’s role in assessing Amendment 35 refers to the Children’s Commissioners. the detail of how the Government take action. Of course we recognise that they have particular expertise Government amendment 21 seeks to make child care in this area, and they are exactly the sort of body that an explicit part of the child poverty strategy. This was we had in mind in the reference in clause 9(4)(c) to raised by many hon. Members in Committee. There was “organisations working with or representing children”. a clear consensus that child care should be added to the It is therefore not clear why the amendment suggests a Bill because of its great significance, not only in enabling specific reference to the Children’s Commissioners, as it parents to work but in improving educational outcomes is unnecessary. for children. We are clear that the development of both national Amendments 27, 28, 35 and 36 deal with consultation and local child poverty strategies should benefit from and are similar in effect. Amendment 36 would require input by children, and I argue that the provisions in the the Secretary of State, in preparing the UK strategy Bill go a long way towards ensuring that their views are required by clause 9, to consult children directly as well properly taken into account. We want the strategies as organisations working with or representing them. developed under the Bill to be as effective as possible, Amendment 27 would have the same effect but in and we recognise that one step towards achieving that is addition require the Secretary of State to consult families to ensure that they are informed by the views of those directly. Similarly, amendment 28 would require local experiencing poverty. The challenge is more about how authorities, when preparing their joint poverty strategies, to put that into practice effectively than about the to consult children and families directly, as well as precise requirements set out in the Bill. I am concerned organisations working with them. that amendment 35 would not actually help to ensure Amendment 35 takes a slightly different approach. It that the strategy more effectively reflected the views of would place an additional duty on the Secretary of children or their families. State to consult the children’s commissioners for the I am sure that this is not what hon. Members intend, four nations. Very similar amendments were debated in but it is possible that the amendments could become Committee. As I said then, the Government’s intention little more than a process requirement, imposing additional has always been that the child poverty strategy should bureaucratic burdens that would not help us to understand be informed by the views of children and their families, the concerns of children and families experiencing poverty particularly those with direct experience of poverty. or make our strategy more effective. In other words, Indeed, we are committed to ensuring that children’s there is a balance to be struck. We do not want to place views underpin all our policies to improve outcomes for process burdens on the Secretary of State and local all children. authorities, particularly at a time when we are all conscious Amendments 27 and 28 include reference to families. of the need to be careful with public money. On the Looking at this from a drafting perspective, it is not other hand, I appreciate the concerns expressed by hon. clear what that word means. Does it refer only to Members and organisations outside the House that the parents, or to others with parental responsibility? Would Bill does not spell out as clearly as it could our intention 443 Child Poverty Bill9 DECEMBER 2009 Child Poverty Bill 444

[Helen Goodman] space for recreation, family activities, doing homework, and all the other things the hon. Member for Beverley to seek the views of children. Although I ask hon. and Holderness (Mr. Stuart) will regard as important in Members not to press the amendments, we are prepared supporting family life. I look forward to speaking further to consider whether amendment 36 would improve the on the matter if we reach the next group of amendments. Bill. If my colleague Lord McKenzie feels that it would be helpful, we will introduce it in the other place. Mr. Graham Stuart: I rise to speak to amendment 27, which deals with consulting families. On page 5, the Bill Ms Keeble: I am pleased to be able to speak at this states: stage, although I had hoped to be able to speak to the “In preparing a UK strategy, the Secretary of State…must next group of amendments. consult…local authorities…Scottish Ministers…such children, My hon. Friend the Minister mentioned the processes or organisations working with or representing children, as the in the Bill for consulting those experiencing poverty, Secretary of State thinks fit…and such other persons.” and she said that the Government had brought forward Is it not odd not to mention families or the context in their proposal to include child care in the Bill because of which children live? I would not make this allegation its particular role in tackling child poverty. In preparation against the Government, but typically it is totalitarian for Report, I consulted in a community in my constituency states that try to bypass the context of the family and where there is a high concentration of families with the parents to speak directly to children. The measure is children living in poverty. I talked to people about their rather odd. The Minister has tried to say that if we concerns, and a key one, which led to my tabling amendment include families, suddenly the Secretary of State would 32, which is in the next group, was the overcrowding be obliged to consult the whole of the general public, that they experience. I hoped that that would be mentioned but that is obviously nonsense. The amendment would in the Bill. I wish to make a couple of points about the simply provide that consultation, and I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister “Secretary of State…must consult…such children”, will respond to them. families When I went around the estate in Southfields, half “and organisations working with…children, as the Secretary of the people I asked about their experience of poverty State thinks fit”. and the places in which they lived told me they were We have heard from the Minister, and we will not living in overcrowded conditions and that that was one necessarily hear from her again, unless I have misunderstood of their prime difficulties. The feature of overcrowding the process, but it is a pity she dismissed the proposal. If that is the biggest problem to them—it is why I wanted the Secretary of State does not talk to children in the overcrowding as well as child care, which Government context of the family, she will not be properly talking to amendment 21 proposes, in the Bill—is that people have the child. The best advocate of the child is very often to sleep in living rooms. That is a fact of material the parent. It is not that we do not want to hear directly deprivation that I had hoped the Government would from children, but if we do not understand the position have taken on board and included among the indicators. of the parent as the chief advocate as the child, we May I give an example to my hon. Friend the Minister? misunderstand the essence of the important relationship As she will know from Committee, right back in 1935, between the state and children in the context of their when there was a debate about poor families, children family. and housing in east London, a Labour MP said “the right hon. Gentleman’s standards as regards overcrowding Mr. Streeter: Does my hon. Friend also think it a are not” little peculiar and—I hesitate to say this—perhaps typical normal. He continued: of a rather bureaucratically minded Government that “He contemplates as a normal thing that living rooms should they are prepared to consult be used as bedrooms. I can never agree to that…in ordinary “organisations working with or representing children” circumstances”. but not parents themselves? He went on to say that if we accept that people should be required to sleep in living rooms, Mr. Stuart: It is a little peculiar. I am trying to follow “we shall be heading for the creation of new slums.”—[Official my hon. Friend in being charitable, and I do not want to Report, 20 May 1935; Vol. 302, c. 42-44.] be harsh toward the Government, but I am disappointed. I would have liked to have heard from the Minister Helen Goodman: My hon. Friend has persisted in the context in which the consultation will take place. making those points over the course of consideration of The cheapest and easiest way to consult children who the Bill, and they are indeed extremely important. I can might live in poverty might be to go to a school that inform her that the Department for Work and Pensions serves a poor area and speak to the children there—in intends to pilot a new question for inclusion in the other words, entirely removed from the home and family family resources survey, asking families with children in which the child is being brought up. about the space they have available in their homes for leisure and family activities. I hope she regards that as significant progress on that front. 5.45 pm I seek reassurance from the Minister, who said that Ms Keeble: I am grateful for that, and perhaps my the Government would like to consult children and hon. Friend will spell that out more fully on Third families, because the Bill does not say that. The only Reading, so that we can be absolutely clear that families substantive reason given for opposing this suggestion with children will be regarded as entitled to have a living was that it would lead to consulting the whole general space in which nobody has to sleep, so they can have public, which is clearly nonsense. Why cannot the Minister 445 Child Poverty Bill9 DECEMBER 2009 Child Poverty Bill 446 accept that talking to children in the context of the and in terms. At that point, she rejected the argument. family, and talking to the family, is the right thing to The Joint Committee then issued its view on 10 November. do? She has her head bowed—I hope that it is in shame The point of Report is for the Government to return to or embarrassment. It would have been useful to hear the House weeks later with a clear view, and not to see why she does not think that what we propose would be matters leave this House to be dealt with by the unelected constructive and where she expects the consultation to House. I do not mean that in an angry way; I just regret take place. Will it be in schools or will it be in the that we are not using Report as it should be used. context of the family home? How will it be delivered? I However, I recognise her willingness to reconsider the fear, as stated here, that effectively the family context point, which ought to be put on the record. will be excluded because of how the Bill has been Finally, on new clause 4, I accept that there is some phrased. validity in the Minister’s point about whether it would tie the Government down to a duty to implement something Dr. Evan Harris: With the leave of the House, I will that might not be the best way of meeting the obligatory respond to the points made about amendments 35 and targets. The Joint Committee considered and rejected 36. I am grateful for the support of the hon. Member that argument, but we will reflect on her comments and for South-West Bedfordshire, and I note that my hon. the Government’s response. However, I reject the argument Friend the Member for Northavon tabled similar that a legal duty to implement a strategy undermines amendments in Committee. Parliament’s ability to hold the Government to account. In response to the point about children’s commissioners, The processes of the House undermine that ability, and the Minister did not give a good reason why they should I think that any legal reference that Parliament can use not be included. They have been suggested specifically will aid it. I do not accept that argument, and nor, I because their role is statutory and that is why they are think, will the Joint Committee. It is clearly a difficult different from the others. If we are to go to the trouble new clause, however, so I beg to ask leave to withdraw of creating through statute an organisation with expertise the clause. in being an advocate for children, it should be a statutory Clause, by leave, withdrawn. consultee. That is only logical, and I suspect that a similar amendment would attract widespread support Clause 8 in the other place for that reason. The Minister was concerned that amendment 36 UK STRATEGIES would create a burden of consultation—a process burden. Amendment made: 21, in page 4, line 23, after ‘education’, If there is a process burden, and if consultation can insert ‘, childcare’.—(Helen Goodman.) rightly be described as a burden—I do not think that it can—it was created by signing the UN convention on Clause 21 the rights of the child. Article 12 is clear in requiring states to assure to the child who is capable of forming LOCAL CHILD POVERTY NEEDS ASSESSMENT his or her own views the right to express those views freely in all matters affecting the child, the views of the Mr. David Gauke (South-West Hertfordshire) (Con): child being given due weight in accordance with the I beg to move amendment 29, in page 13, line 12, after child’s age and maturity. The Minister made reference ‘assessment’, insert ‘including— to article 12 herself. (i) job creation, (ii) reducing family breakdown, Helen Goodman: Does not the hon. Gentleman think that there is a difference between involving a particular (iii) families with disabilities, child in a decision that affects them insofar as they (iv) black and minority ethnic children, and understand the issue, for which we have precedent in (v) looked after children.’. English law, and the consultation of whole groups of children? I am not suggesting that groups of children Madam Deputy Speaker: With this it will be convenient should not be consulted—that is a good idea. I simply to discuss the following amendments: 32, page 13, line 12, at do not think that the read-across from article 12 is as end add tight as he suggests, notwithstanding the general principle ‘which must include the number of households within the area of children being enabled to participate where possible. that fail to meet the bedroom standard’. Amendment 30, page 14, line 38, leave out from ‘of’ Dr. Harris: I see the point that the Minister makes. to ‘section’ in line 39. However, the explanatory notes on the duty Mr. Gauke: The amendments relate to the duties of “to consult children, or organisations working with or representing local authorities. Under clause 21, which deals with children as the Secretary of State thinks fit” local child poverty needs assessments, the responsible refer to article 12. That implies that that consultation local authorities are required to set out how they will with groups is based on article 12, and that that is not address child poverty. Amendment 29 takes us back restricted to the right of individual consultation on partly to an earlier debate, and in the time available I measures that the state imposes on a child. That may be have no intention of running back through the arguments. a debate for another day. However, as my hon. Friend the Member for South-West I wish to record my thanks to the Minister for saying Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) eloquently stated, we that she will look at this point. I do not want to be believe that there is a lack of balance in the Bill, because churlish, but it is a point about process. I understand it focuses on income targets, which we recognise are that my hon. Friend the Member for Northavon raised necessary, but does not contain enough about the causes it on 29 October at columns 256-7 in a very good speech of poverty and how we can address them. 447 Child Poverty Bill9 DECEMBER 2009 Child Poverty Bill 448

[Mr. Gauke] A second concern is this: what things can local authorities do on the relative income target in clause 2 that are not To some extent, amendment 29 is another attempt to relevant to those other income targets that clearly belong address the causes of poverty. It would do so in the in the definition of child poverty for the purposes of context of the local child poverty needs assessments. part 2? The point was made in evidence to us that local The Government can produce regulations setting out authorities do not really have the levers to do anything matters that must be considered in such an assessment, about the target of 60 per cent. of median income. I can and amendment 29 sets out some areas that we think fully understand why that target exists nationally, but if should be included in those regulations, two of which local authorities cannot, as a matter of practice, do relate to the causes of poverty.In particular, the amendment anything that is specifically targeted at that income refers to job creation, which could be a solution and measurement, why have it in the definition of child also reduce family breakdown. However, we have had a poverty for the purposes of part 2? lengthy debate on those matters, and I have no intention The Government accept that it is right that there of running back through the arguments. should be a different definition of child poverty for part As I said, we have set out areas that we think should 2 from that for part 1; but if that is so, should we not be satisfied by a local needs assessment. For example, it tailor the definition more, and why should the relative should deal with matters relating to black and minority income target be included anyway? We had a debate on ethnic children and families with disabilities. On several that in Committee, but with the greatest of respect to occasions in Committee we had an interesting debate the Minister, I am not sure that we received a clear about issues relating to families with disabilities and the answer from her. I hope that we will have an opportunity treatment of disability living allowance for the purposes to hear one today, either now or on Third Reading. of evaluating a household’s income. Furthermore, Subject to those points, I hope that we will have an assessments should deal with matters relating to looked-after opportunity to vote on amendment 29, although I do children, which we also debated at length in Committee. not intend to push the House to a Division on amendment 30. However, it would be helpful if the Minister could at some point elucidate the Government’s Mr. Streeter: Does my hon. Friend agree that the position on those matters. process of having local authorities working with their partners, other statutory agencies and the voluntary Ms Keeble: I want to talk briefly to my amendment 32, sector to thrash out local child poverty needs assessments which says that when local authorities make assessments using the headings that he has helpfully set out in of need, they should look specifically at the housing amendment 29 would be extremely valuable in getting conditions in which children live, given the close link under the skin of what was happening for children in between child welfare and housing, as set out in Every those localities and prove a valuable tool for those Child Matters. I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister authorities and their partners thereafter? will address that point in her one-minute winding-up speech. Mr. Gauke: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Indeed, there is a recognition of some of those points in the Bill. Helen Goodman: Rather a lot of points have been We have debated such matters in the course of our made, and I will have difficulty in responding to all of proceedings on the Bill, but having those points in the them. On amendment 32, tabled by my hon. Friend the Bill would be helpful and would give useful guidance to Member for Northampton, North (Ms Keeble), I thought local authorities. that I had made it clear that we were changing the information that would come in through the survey. It Given the time and the fact that the hon. Member for would therefore not be sensible to set a target along the Northampton, North (Ms Keeble) has already touched lines that she has just described, because there simply is on her amendment 32, I will not go into it. However, I not the information available to do that. would like briefly to say that amendment 30 concerns a matter that we debated in Committee, thanks to a In amendment 29, hon. Members are seeking to probing amendment from my hon. Friend the Member prescribe in the Bill matters that we believe would be for Henley (John Howell). Amendment 30 relates to the more appropriately dealt with in regulations— definition of child poverty for the purposes of part 2, which relates to the duties of local authorities. Two 6pm issues came up regarding the relative income target in Debate interrupted (Programme Order, 20 July). its application to local authorities. The Deputy Speaker put forthwith the Question already The first issue was about how we measure relative proposed from the Chair (Standing Order No. 83E), income in a local authority. To be fair, the Minister That the amendment be made. provided a helpful note about national indicator 116, The House divided: Ayes 133, Noes 315. which stated that it would measure the proportion of children living in families in receipt of out-of-work Division No. 22] [6 pm benefits or working families whose income is below 60 per cent. of median income. That is not exactly the AYES definition in clause 2, so if the Minister has an opportunity, Afriyie, Adam Bacon, Mr. Richard I would be grateful if she could say how significant the Ainsworth, Mr. Peter Baldry, Tony difference is between that definition and the definition Amess, Mr. David Baron, Mr. John of relative poverty in clause 2. However, that definition Ancram, rh Mr. Michael Bellingham, Mr. Henry looks pretty close, so to that extent our concern has Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James Benyon, Mr. Richard been addressed. Atkinson, Mr. Peter Beresford, Sir Paul 449 Child Poverty Bill9 DECEMBER 2009 Child Poverty Bill 450

Blunt, Mr. Crispin Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver Bailey, Mr. Adrian Dismore, Mr. Andrew Bone, Mr. Peter Lewis, Dr. Julian Bain, Mr. William Dobbin, Jim Bottomley, Peter Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian Banks, Gordon Dobson, rh Frank Brady, Mr. Graham Lidington, Mr. David Barrett, John Donohoe, Mr. Brian H. Brazier, Mr. Julian Lilley, rh Mr. Peter Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Doran, Mr. Frank Brokenshire, James Loughton, Tim Battle, rh John Drew, Mr. David Burns, Mr. Simon Luff, Peter Bayley, Hugh Eagle, Angela Burrowes, Mr. David Main, Anne Beckett, rh Margaret Eagle, Maria Burt, Alistair Malins, Mr. Humfrey Begg, Miss Anne Efford, Clive Butterfill, Sir John Mates, rh Mr. Michael Beith, rh Sir Alan Ellman, Mrs. Louise Campbell, Mr. Gregory May, rh Mrs. Theresa Bell, Sir Stuart Engel, Natascha Clark, Greg McCrea, Dr. William Benn, rh Hilary Ennis, Jeff Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick Benton, Mr. Joe Farrelly, Paul Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey Mundell, David Berry, Roger Farron, Tim Cox, Mr. Geoffrey Newmark, Mr. Brooks Betts, Mr. Clive Featherstone, Lynne Curry, rh Mr. David O’Brien, Mr. Stephen Blackman, Liz Fitzpatrick, Jim Davies, David T.C. Ottaway, Richard Blears, rh Hazel Flint, rh Caroline (Monmouth) Paterson, Mr. Owen Blizzard, Mr. Bob Follett, Barbara Davies, Philip Penning, Mike Blunkett, rh Mr. David Foster, Mr. Don Davis, rh David Penrose, John Borrow, Mr. David S. Foster, Michael Jabez Dodds, Mr. Nigel Randall, Mr. John Brake, Tom (Hastings and Rye) Donaldson, rh Mr. Jeffrey M. Redwood, rh Mr. John Brennan, Kevin Francis, Dr. Hywel Duddridge, James Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Brooke, Annette Gapes, Mike Duncan, Alan Robertson, Hugh Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas Gardiner, Barry Dunne, Mr. Philip Robinson, Mrs. Iris Brown, Mr. Russell George, Andrew Ellwood, Mr. Tobias Robinson, rh Mr. Peter Browne, rh Des George, rh Mr. Bruce Evans, Mr. Nigel Rosindell, Andrew Browne, Mr. Jeremy Gerrard, Mr. Neil Evennett, Mr. David Ruffley, Mr. David Bruce, rh Malcolm Gidley, Sandra Fallon, Mr. Michael Scott, Mr. Lee Bryant, Chris Gilroy, Linda Field, Mr. Mark Selous, Andrew Buck, Ms Karen Goggins, rh Paul Fox, Dr. Liam Shapps, Grant Burden, Richard Goldsworthy, Julia Francois, Mr. Mark Shepherd, Mr. Richard Burgon, Colin Goodman, Helen Fraser, Christopher Smith, Chloe Burstow, Mr. Paul Griffith, Nia Garnier, Mr. Edward Spicer, Sir Michael Butler, Ms Dawn Grogan, Mr. John Gauke, Mr. David Spink, Bob Byers, rh Mr. Stephen Gwynne, Andrew Gibb, Mr. Nick Spring, Mr. Richard Cable, Dr. Vincent Hain, rh Mr. Peter Caborn, rh Mr. Richard Hall, Patrick Goodman, Mr. Paul Stanley, rh Sir John Gove, Michael Cairns, David Hamilton, Mr. David Streeter, Mr. Gary Gray, Mr. James Campbell, Mr. Alan Hamilton, Mr. Fabian Stuart, Mr. Graham Green, Damian Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Hancock, Mr. Mike Swayne, Mr. Desmond Greening, Justine Campbell, Mr. Ronnie Hanson, rh Mr. David Swire, Mr. Hugo Hague, rh Mr. William Carmichael, Mr. Alistair Harman, rh Ms Harriet Hammond, Stephen Syms, Mr. Robert Cawsey, Mr. Ian Harris, Dr. Evan Hands, Mr. Greg Tapsell, Sir Peter Challen, Colin Harris, Mr. Tom Harper, Mr. Mark Taylor, Dr. Richard Chapman, Ben Harvey, Nick Heald, Mr. Oliver Turner, Mr. Andrew Chaytor, Mr. David Havard, Mr. Dai Heathcoat-Amory, rh Tyrie, Mr. Andrew Clapham, Mr. Michael Healey, rh John Mr. David Vaizey, Mr. Edward Clark, Ms Katy Heath, Mr. David Hendry, Charles Vara, Mr. Shailesh Clarke, rh Mr. Charles Hemming, John Herbert, Nick Viggers, Sir Peter Clarke,rhMr.Tom Hendrick, Mr. Mark Hogg, rh Mr. Douglas Wallace, Mr. Ben Clegg, rh Mr. Nick Hepburn, Mr. Stephen Hollobone, Mr. Philip Waterson, Mr. Nigel Clelland, Mr. David Hesford, Stephen Holloway, Mr. Adam Watkinson, Angela Coffey, Ann Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia Horam, Mr. John Whittingdale, Mr. John Cohen, Harry Heyes, David Howell, John Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann Connarty, Michael Hill, rh Keith Jack, rh Mr. Michael Wilson, Mr. Rob Cooper, rh Yvette Hillier, Meg Jackson, Mr. Stewart Wilson, Sammy Corbyn, Jeremy Hodge, rh Margaret Cousins, Jim Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon Jenkin, Mr. Bernard Winterton, Ann Jones, Mr. David Crausby, Mr. David Holmes, Paul Winterton, Sir Nicholas Knight, rh Mr. Greg Creagh, Mary Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey Wright, Jeremy Laing, Mrs. Eleanor Cruddas, Jon Hopkins, Kelvin Lait, Mrs. Jacqui Tellers for the Ayes: Cummings, John Howarth, rh Mr. George Lancaster, Mr. Mark Bill Wiggin and Cunningham, Mr. Jim Howells, rh Dr. Kim Leigh, Mr. Edward Mr. Stephen Crabb Cunningham, Tony Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay Davey, Mr. Edward Hughes, Simon NOES David, Mr. Wayne Humble, Mrs. Joan Davidson, Mr. Ian Hunter, Mark Abbott, Ms Diane Anderson, Mr. David Davies, Mr. Dai Hutton, rh Mr. John Ainger, Nick Anderson, Janet Davies, Mr. Quentin Iddon, Dr. Brian Alexander, Danny Atkins, Charlotte Dean, Mrs. Janet Illsley, Mr. Eric Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas Austin, Mr. Ian Denham, rh Mr. John Ingram, rh Mr. Adam Allen, Mr. Graham Austin, John Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit Irranca-Davies, Huw 451 Child Poverty Bill9 DECEMBER 2009 Child Poverty Bill 452

Jackson, Glenda O’Brien, rh Mr. Mike Ward, Claire Wilson, Phil James, Mrs. Siân C. O’Hara, Mr. Edward Wareing, Mr. Robert N. Winnick, Mr. David Jenkins, Mr. Brian Olner, Mr. Bill Watson, Mr. Tom Wood, Mike Johnson, Ms Diana R. Öpik, Lembit Watts, Mr. Dave Wright, David Jones, Helen Osborne, Sandra Webb, Steve Wright, Mr. Iain Jones, Mr. Kevan Owen, Albert Wicks, rh Malcolm Wright, Dr. Tony Jones, Mr. Martyn Palmer, Dr. Nick Williams, rh Mr. Alan Wyatt, Derek Joyce, Mr. Eric Pearson, Ian Williams, Stephen Younger-Ross, Richard Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Plaskitt, Mr. James Willis, Mr. Phil Tellers for the Noes: Keeble, Ms Sally Pope, Mr. Greg Willott, Jenny Lyn Brown and Keeley, Barbara Pound, Stephen Wills, rh Mr. Michael Mr. John Heppell Keetch, Mr. Paul Prentice, Bridget Kelly, rh Ruth Prentice, Mr. Gordon Kennedy, rh Mr. Charles Prescott, rh Mr. John Question accordingly negatived. Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq Price, Adam The Deputy Speaker then put forthwith the Question Kidney, Mr. David Prosser, Gwyn necessary for the disposal of business to be concluded at Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter Pugh, Dr. John that time (Standing Order No. 83E). Knight, rh Jim Purchase, Mr. Ken Kumar, Dr. Ashok Purnell, rh James Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Reed, Mr. Andy Schedule 1 Lamb, Norman Reed, Mr. Jamie Laws, Mr. David Reid, Mr. Alan THE CHILD POVERTY COMMISSION Lazarowicz, Mark Reid, rh John Leech, Mr. John Rennie, Willie Amendment made: 22, page 18, line 20, at end insert— Levitt, Tom Riordan, Mrs. Linda ‘Research Lewis, Mr. Ivan Rogerson, Dan 9A (1) The Commission may at any time request the Secretary Linton, Martin Rowen, Paul of State to carry out, or commission others to carry out, such Lloyd, Tony Roy, Mr. Frank research on behalf of the Commission for the purpose of the Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn Ruane, Chris carrying out of the Commission’s functions as the Commission Love, Mr. Andrew Ruddock, Joan may specify in the request. Lucas, Ian Russell, Bob (2) If the Secretary of State decides not to comply with the Mackinlay, Andrew Russell, Christine request, the Secretary of State must notify the Commission of Mactaggart, Fiona Salter, Martin the reasons for the decision.’.—(Helen Goodman.) Malik, Mr. Shahid Sanders, Mr. Adrian Mallaber, Judy Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad Third Reading Marris, Rob Seabeck, Alison Marsden, Mr. Gordon Sharma, Mr. Virendra 6.14 pm Martlew, Mr. Eric Sheerman, Mr. Barry McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Simon, Mr. Siôn Helen Goodman: I beg to move, That the Bill be now McCabe, Steve Skinner, Mr. Dennis read the Third time. McCarthy, Kerry Slaughter, Mr. Andy Tackling child poverty and deprivation is one of the McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Smith, rh Mr. Andrew most crucial roles for any Government. Our goal McDonagh, Siobhain Smith, Ms Angela C. is—[Interruption.] McDonnell, John (Sheffield, Hillsborough) McFadden, rh Mr. Pat Smith, rh Angela E. (Basildon) Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. Will hon. Members McFall, rh John Smith, Geraldine who are leaving the Chamber please do so as quickly McGuire, rh Mrs. Anne Smith, rh Jacqui McIsaac, Shona Snelgrove, Anne and quietly as possible so that the Third Reading debate McKechin, Ann Soulsby, Sir Peter can take place? McNulty, rh Mr. Tony Southworth, Helen Meale, Mr. Alan Spellar, rh Mr. John Helen Goodman: Our goal is a society where no Merron, Gillian Starkey, Dr. Phyllis child’s life is scarred by poverty, and where every child is Michael, rh Alun Stewart, Ian given the best possible start in life and has the capabilities Miliband, rh Edward Stoate, Dr. Howard and opportunities to flourish. Children who grow up in Miller, Andrew Strang, rh Dr. Gavin poverty lack many of the experiences and opportunities Mitchell, Mr. Austin Stringer, Graham that others take for granted, and can be exposed to Moffat, Anne Stuart, Ms Gisela severe hardship and social exclusion. Their childhood Moffatt, Laura Stunell, Andrew suffers as a result, which is unacceptable. In the current Mole, Chris Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry difficult economic times, our focus on tackling child Moon, Mrs. Madeleine Tami, Mark poverty is even more important. Too often in the past, Moore, Mr. Michael Taylor, Ms Dari recessions and economic downturns have been allowed Morden, Jessica Taylor, David to affect the lives of children long after the country’s Morgan, Julie Teather, Sarah economy has returned to growth. Morley, rh Mr. Elliot Thornberry, Emily Mountford, Kali Thurso, John Today, we set out the five principles that will guide Mudie, Mr. George Timms, rh Mr. Stephen our strategy on child poverty: first, that work is the Mulholland, Greg Todd, Mr. Mark most sustainable route out of poverty; secondly, that Mullin, Mr. Chris Touhig, rh Mr. Don families and family life should be supported; thirdly, Murphy, Mr. Denis Trickett, Jon that early intervention is necessary to break cycles of Murphy, rh Mr. Paul Truswell, Mr. Paul deprivation; fourthly, that excellence in public service Naysmith, Dr. Doug Vis, Dr. Rudi delivery is key; and fifthly, that cost-effectiveness and Norris, Dan Waltho, Lynda affordability are vital. 453 Child Poverty Bill9 DECEMBER 2009 Child Poverty Bill 454

Worklessness in families and severe deprivation have I have very much enjoyed the debate on this important not been tackled with the energy and drive needed to Bill, not only today, but throughout its Committee deal with entrenched disadvantage. In this context, it is stage. Delivering this legislation will take us closer to right that we renew and strengthen our commitment to our goal of eradicating child poverty in this generation. deliver on the 2020 goal through the Child Poverty Bill. This Bill will help to focus efforts across government, The Bill will give us renewed impetus to deliver on our local authorities and other partners to improve the lives goals and to ensure that the right strategies and actions of children and young people, and I commend it to flow from it. the House. Mr. Graham Stuart: Will the hon. Lady give way? 6.20 pm Helen Goodman: I would like to make a little more Andrew Selous: I have no hesitation in joining the progress. Minister in saying that eradicating child poverty is an The Bill will sustain and increase the momentum ambitious but vital objective for our country. It is both towards eradicating child poverty, create a clear definition an economic imperative, because no advanced economy of success, put in place a framework for accountability, can afford to waste the potential of so many of its and improve partnership-working and collaboration to citizens, and, as she has said, a moral imperative, as no tackle child poverty at the local level. I thank hon. decent society should allow so many children to remain Members on both sides of the House for their contributions in poverty, as has been the case in the United Kingdom to the debates as the Bill made progress. It has been in recent years. I shall repeat what my right hon. Friend encouraging that it has received a warm welcome from the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs. May) said on Second colleagues. Reading, because we are both proud to serve under a I want to respond briefly to some of the points that leader who has said: were raised and on which hon. Members asked for the “I want me—and the government I aspire to lead—to be Government’s view. The hon. Member for South-West judged on how we tackle poverty in office. Because poverty is not Hertfordshire (Mr. Gauke) asked about the position of acceptable in our country today.” local authorities in respect of relative income. The I am also pleased that it was a Conservative Mayor of objective is not to have separate relative income targets London who decided to pay a living wage to Greater for each local authority area. There was some confusion London authority staff. That had not happened before. about that in Committee, and I hope we have cleared it The long title of the Bill refers to “eradication”, but up. The hon. Gentleman also suggested that local authorities both the Minister and the Secretary of State for Work do not have any impact on relative income standards in and Pensions have made frequent reference during our their areas. We believe that they do have the ability to debates to the fact that the Government’s real aspiration influence families’ incomes, and, indeed, play a pivotal is to achieve a child poverty level that is among the best role in tackling the causes of relative low income. Also, in Europe. It would have been slightly more honest to local authorities will soon have the means to assess local have said that in the Bill, because the 10 per cent. that is progress in tackling low income, and it is entirely reasonable in the Bill represents the best level, and 10 per cent. is to expect that to be taken into account in the preparation not eradication. Some 23 per cent. of children in the of their needs assessments. United Kingdom live in poverty, which is about twice Local authorities have a number of levers at their the level found in the Netherlands, Sweden and Denmark— disposal to help increase family income. In the short they have child poverty rates of 14, 12 and 10 per cent. term, they can administer financial help for families on respectively. It is also instructive to note that 23 per low incomes with measures such as housing and council cent. of UK children were living in relative poverty in tax benefit, encouraging families to take up financial 1987, 24 per cent. were doing so in 1996 and 23 per cent. support, and joining up national and local partners to were doing so in 2001. The level of child poverty has provide personalised skills and employment support. remained stubbornly high for more than 30 years. Local authorities can also reduce low income in the future The Joseph Rowntree Foundation has drawn attention by driving economic regeneration and neighbourhood to the need for us to change our strategy if we are to renewal, and by providing high-quality education and make better progress, saying that early years services. “the strategy against poverty and social exclusion pursued since Aside from its positive reception, the Bill has been a the late 1990s is now largely exhausted.” credit to the House. Hon. Members have spoken The former Secretary of State for Health, the right hon. passionately and been extremely well informed on this Member for Darlington (Mr. Milburn), has said that crucial topic. The focus that the Government have “poverty has become more entrenched”. placed on child poverty has ensured that both the moral and economic case for tackling it is indisputable. They That is why we need fresh thinking on this subject, and I have much to be proud of in their record on child was pleased that just now the Minister outlined five poverty. Our efforts and successes in tackling poverty themes. A number of those relate to the causes of and deprivation across the country have shown that poverty, to which Conservative Members have tried on with the political will those problems can be addressed. every occasion to include reference in the Bill. However, we need to do more to tackle the root causes The Bill is very much a blank canvas. It sets out the and consequences of poverty, so that all children have a targets to be achieved in 2020, but I was disappointed good start in life, enjoying a fulfilling childhood and just now that Labour Members voted against including having the capabilities and opportunities to flourish. the 2010 target, even though I believe that some of the Our vision is of a fairer society: one in which no child is Minister’s colleagues joined us in the Division Lobby. left behind and every child has the opportunity to As I said, the Government have had 10 years to have a flourish. run at the target of halving child poverty, and I think 455 Child Poverty Bill9 DECEMBER 2009 Child Poverty Bill 456

[Andrew Selous] Members for Henley (John Howell) and for Beverley and Holderness (Mr. Stuart). They were a formidable that a formal report to Parliament on that would have duo behind us both in Committee and this afternoon. I been useful and would have provided the Government am also grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for with an early opportunity to come to the House to South-West Devon (Mr. Streeter), who spoke eloquently explain how the child poverty strategy will change. on Second Reading and made a number of excellent Conservative Members have set out on a number of interventions today. occasions the causes of poverty that we want examined. The Bill is not perfect. We will seek in the other place Our non-exhaustive list includes educational failure, to push some of the issues that we have raised. However, hence our school reforms and our commitment to pay a we join the Minister in agreeing with her wish to see pupil premium to those schools in the most disadvantaged child poverty come tumbling down in this country. It is areas, and the level of skills, which is vital. Level 3 skills, still far too high and we believe that we can make much which were mentioned at Prime Minister’s questions, better progress. are particularly important and have decreased over the past decade. 6.28 pm Both benefit dependency and intergenerational Steve Webb: It was interesting that when the Minister worklessness are huge problems that cause poverty up began her speech she said that she thought that it was and down our country, hence the Opposition have wrong that any child should suffer poverty and deprivation. produced some of the most detailed welfare reform She was, of course, right. The hon. Member for South-West proposals that any party has introduced in opposition Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) said that the Bill talked or in government. Our “Get Britain Working”programme about eradication, and it is regrettable in a sense—one cuts right to the heart of what is needed to deal with might call it the poverty of our ambition—that we child poverty, so that we can help people to get back would regard success as 1 million children still living in into the work force and break these intergenerational poverty in 10 years’ time. It might be that in modern cycles of worklessness. industrialised societies that is, in the Government’s view, Work on dealing with benefit dependency is extremely the best that can be achieved. Clearly, it would be an important, too, and I commend the “Dynamic Benefits” awful lot better than the point from which we are report produced by my right hon. Friend the Member starting. To that extent, we welcome the Bill. It is sad for Chingford and Woodford Green (Mr. Duncan Smith) that the Government have felt it necessary to oversell it: in that regard. The issue of debt is extremely serious. We the Prime Minister routinely at Prime Minister’s questions touched on that in Committee. It aggravates poverty for refers to the Government’s goal in legislation as being some families in a particularly nasty and unattractive eradication, but he never qualifies that with the odd way, trapping them in deep poverty, often for long million who will still be left. That is really rather unhelpful. periods. Some excellent work is being done in the voluntary sector by Christians Against Poverty centres and others It is true that the Bill raises the political price of up and down the country. failing to tackle child poverty, but no Government can bind their successor. The hon. Member for Beverley I was pleased to hear the Minister refer to the need to and Holderness (Mr. Stuart) asked what would happen strengthen families, and I was particularly pleased to if we were at war in 2018. If that happened, no doubt have support from the right hon. Member for Birkenhead we would repeal or amend the Act because we would (Mr. Field) in that regard, too. have to spend money because we were at war. We realise We touched on the issue of addiction. I say again that that there are always get-outs to such things, but the Bill I think that that needs to be part of the Government’s will make it more difficult, in a relatively normal period, anti-poverty strategy. I recognise that some people might for a Government not to prioritise tackling child poverty. get into illegal substance abuse and alcohol abuse because of poverty, but the relationship also works the other Mr. Graham Stuart: Does the hon. Gentleman have way around. Families and lives that were proceeding any misgivings about the Bill? Obviously, no one wants along absolutely fine are destroyed because of alcoholism child poverty to be maintained, but if we do not make or illegal drug use. an assessment of a Government’s overall social priorities, We have also learned from a recent report from the how can we come up with statutory targets for one Joseph Rowntree Foundation that the Government’s particular area? Surely that creates a risk, outside of the child poverty strategy started to run into trouble as calamity of major war, that we will prioritise child early as 2004-05. That was a key turning point well poverty when it would be better to prioritise something before the recession when poverty, unemployment and else because of the situation at that time. Is not the Bill property repossessions all started to rise. Indeed, only a more declaratory than proper in its structure? day or so ago there was an further excellent report by the Young Foundation pointing out some of these Steve Webb: In a sense, the hon. Gentleman is clearly difficulties and to the important psycho-social problems right—the Bill prioritises the tackling of child poverty, faced by many families up and down the country. In and he is perfectly entitled to take the view either that it particular, it pointed out the vital role of the voluntary should not be a priority or that we should not presume sector, working alongside the Government to make real that it should be a priority. However, I refer him to the progress in dealing with these deep-seated issues. situation in the 1980s, when tackling child poverty was In conclusion, I want to thank all those who were on neither a priority nor a statutory priority. the Committee, in particular my hon. Friend the Member Rather shockingly, the hon. Member for South-West for South-West Hertfordshire (Mr. Gauke). He was an Bedfordshire selectively started his history from 1987. excellent shadow Minister to work alongside. I want to He has done that before, but the first time he did so, I pay particular tribute, too, to my hon. Friends the thought that it was done innocently; this time, I assume 457 Child Poverty Bill9 DECEMBER 2009 Child Poverty Bill 458 that it was done deliberately. It is worth remembering Steve Webb: The hon. Lady raises a point about the that the Conservatives started government with 1.7 million perversity of the proposal to reward marriage through children in poverty and that that number rose to 2.8 million the tax system. The Conservatives started the abolition under them, so, at the point at which he started his of the married couples tax allowance, but she may recall figures, the Tories had already put 1 million children that Labour finished it off. It is funny how things come into poverty. He then glossed over the fact that another around again. 500,000 children moved into poverty before the Tories However, Madam Deputy Speaker, I am sure that left office. They therefore doubled child poverty. I do you would not want me to stray from the Bill, which I not doubt the personal sincerity of the hon. Gentleman welcome. It does not do a huge amount, but it does one jot, but the idea that the Conservative party is the raise the political cost of not taking child poverty answer to child poverty is amazing. seriously, and that has to be a good thing. It will also engage local government, and we valued the contributions Andrew Selous: The hon. Gentleman and I had a that the hon. Member for Henley (John Howell) made similar exchange on Second Reading, so we are going in Committee with his proactive thinking about child over slightly old ground. I have the HBAI figures in poverty at local level. That may well turn out to be one front of me—I am sure that he, too, has them—and I of the Bill’s more concrete implications, as the national see from table 4.1 on page 72 that the highest point was statistics will not be available locally anyway in quite in 1995, at 29 per cent. However, my point is that these that form. problems have been around for a considerable period. The rate in 1987 was the same as it is today. We have not As many hon. Members have said, we had a good made the progress that one would have hoped, despite Committee stage, and I was grateful to my hon. Friend the Government having made child poverty a political the Member for Edinburgh, West (John Barrett) for his priority, because we are only back at the level that we support. It was also good that two Government were at in 1987, hence the need for fresh thinking. amendments—on child care, and the research function of the child poverty commission—were tabled on Report Steve Webb: The House might have thought that the in response to the points that we raised. It is a welcome— hon. Gentleman was making a slightly different point—that and for me a relatively novel experience—to find that it has all been pretty flat for 20 years, and that this is all the arguments that we made in Committee actually terribly difficult. In fact, he picked a point halfway up a changed something. To that extent, it has been a productive hill—a hill for which the Conservative party was process but I am sure, as the hon. Member for South-West responsible—because the figures continued to rise after Bedfordshire said, that our noble Friends in another his starting point. The achievements of the Labour place will still have some items left on their agenda. Government might not have gone far enough, but they However, I certainly encourage my hon. Friends to peaked the figures at the top of the hill and started us support the Third Reading of the Bill tonight. back down it again, and we are now halfway back down the hill that he started halfway up. The situation has not 6.36 pm been static; a long-term trend of grotesque inequality, which his party presided over with apparent equanimity, John Howell: I do not know whether it is usual to has been reversed. have so many Back Benchers wanting to take part in a Third Reading debate, but it is perfectly appropriate for Andrew Selous: I hate to take up too much of Third this Bill. In Committee, those on both Front Benches Reading on economic history, but will the hon. Gentleman commented on the way that Back Benchers had contributed, cast his mind back to the economy that the Conservative and that included the amendments that we tabled. For party inherited in 1979? It was a shambles and the myself, I have very much enjoyed participating in the priority had to be economic growth and regeneration. proceedings on this Bill, as it is an extremely important We were the sick man of Europe and we inherited a subject that is very close to my heart. Child poverty is shambles. It is not possible for every Government to something that we really need to make progress on. make progress on both economic and social targets if Having said that, I remain disappointed with many they inherit an economy that is in total shambles. It is aspects of the Bill, given that this is such an important worth putting that on the record. subject. I remain disappointed with the way that it is Steve Webb: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for still ill thought through in terms of the targets that it that. Clearly, 18 years is not long enough to avoid sets and the way that it is tackling—or not tackling—the doubling child poverty. I assume, therefore, that he is causes of poverty. We have heard a lot about both saying that if the Conservatives came to office now, in matters again this afternoon on Report. what they say is a very difficult economic situation, and I also think that the Bill’s structure remains ill thought if child poverty were to double over the next 18 years, through, and I still find it difficult to reconcile what it is that would just be the way things are. trying to achieve in part 1 with what it is trying to achieve in part 2. Another matter that was raised in Judy Mallaber (Amber Valley) (Lab): Does the hon. Committee but not on Report is the possibility, as many Gentleman agree that it seems eccentric to think that a of the charity representatives who came to the Committee Conservative policy could assist in dealing with child as witnesses stated clearly, that the Government will be poverty, given that it might mean that a man who is on taken to judicial review over the non-achievement of his third wife would still get extra benefits from their targets. That is still the case, as is the potential, given marriage allowance, while his first wife, who might still that these are income targets, that judges rather than the be looking after their children as a lone parent, would Chancellor of the Exchequer will make economic policy— be being discriminated against and have an allowance although, after today’s pre-Budget report, perhaps judges taken away? could not do a worse job. 459 Child Poverty Bill9 DECEMBER 2009 Child Poverty Bill 460

Mr. Graham Stuart: My hon. Friend is right to point means eradication in the sense that the rest of us would to the absurd idea that judges might intervene in the use the word. I hope that, with a change of Government, complex area of child poverty—perhaps they will demand we will get a strategy for child poverty that is much that billions be given in additional tax credits—but does more focused on delivering real change for children and he agree that there is also the equally absurd possibility particularly the families in which they live. of a conflict between statutory obligations? No Government before this one had ever put targets in statute, but now 6.41 pm there will be statutes pointing in different directions. For example, whereas the Fiscal Responsibility Bill Mr. Graham Stuart: It is a pleasure to take part in the suggests that there must be cuts, other legislation such debate on Third Reading. Like my hon. Friend the as the Climate Act 2008 and this Bill suggest that more Member for Henley (John Howell), I have enjoyed should be spent. being involved in the proceedings on the Bill. The Committee that considered the Bill had the involvement Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. We are discussing of hon. Members from across the House. That is not the Third Reading of the Child Poverty Bill and not always true. Government Back Benchers in particular the other legislation that the hon. Gentleman has referred sometimes seem to spend their entire time writing to. correspondence. That was not the case in this Committee, and every hon. Member took a deep interest in the issue and brought their own skills to it. Labour Members John Howell: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. It brought to the Committee casework and an understanding is always good to take an intervention from the other of housing needs in their constituencies. The Front half of the duo, who will no doubt make a contribution Benchers of all three parties also played a full part in of his own in a moment. However, my hon. Friend is the Committee, which was productive, so it was a pleasure quite right to point out that that is also one the legal and a privilege to be part of it. consequences of the Bill, and I too think that it is an insult to Parliament as well. The hon. Member for Northavon (Steve Webb) mentioned in his address that he hoped the Bill would I am also disappointed with the way that the Government make it harder and put up the political price for any continue to treat local government. It is clear from the Government in future to fail to tackle child poverty. He Bill that they do not take local authorities seriously as then launched a rather partisan assault. entities in themselves, with their own agenda and ability to deliver, but regard them as the delivery arm of Mr. Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): It was Whitehall. puerile. Today is not the end of the matter with this Bill, as there is a huge pile of regulation and, even more worryingly, Mr. Stuart: Puerile, was it? The hon. Member for guidance to be issued to local authorities. All I shall ask Northavon then launched an assault on the Conservative of the Minister today is that she please take note of the Government, who did indeed inherit a basket-case economy evidence sessions and the comments made by witnesses. in 1979. What is required from the Government when it comes to regulation and guidance is a light touch, if any touch Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. I remind the hon. at all. Many local authorities are already doing a good Gentleman that we are debating the Bill on Third job in respect of child poverty, as was illustrated by the Reading, which should be about the Bill’s contents. evidence to the Committee from Kent and Liverpool in particular. So please let us see in the guidance a recognition Mr. Stuart: I am grateful to you, Madam Deputy of the best practice that already exists. Speaker. I was trying to answer the points made from I asked one of the witnesses what difference the Bill his Front Bench by the hon. Member for Northavon. I would make and whether it would make a big impact, do not know whether his status is different from mine, because one of them had said that something pretty big but the likelihood of meeting the targets in the Bill is needed to happen in the field of child poverty. I asked: based on an assessment of prior performance. In 1997, “Is that something going to happen as a result of the delivery when the last Conservative Government came in, we mechanisms set out in the Bill?” were in a similar position. Okay, the fiscal deficit at its Neil O’Brien from Policy Exchange answered that negatively peak in 1976, when the International Monetary Fund in terms of the delivery mechanisms and the aims in the came in, was half what it is today, so we are in a worse Bill. It is interesting to read what he said next: position from which to make change. Under that Conservative Government, who restarted the British “you are not going to be voting in this place on the strategy and economy, child poverty increased in a way that is regrettable. all of those things”— My hon. Friend the Member for South-West Bedfordshire the big picture things— (Andrew Selous) is nodding his head. “you are voting on just a target that is very much focused on Despite the wreckage that is being left of our economy— central Government and everything they are doing. So, in answer again, by a Labour Government—if a Conservative to your previous question, there is a complete mismatch.”––[Official Government are elected this coming May, we aim to Report, Child Poverty Public Bill Committee, 22 October 2009; c. 110, Q21.] ensure that we do not just revive the economy while leaving behind children in poverty. That is precisely why That is a great shame. my hon. Friends are determined to take the child poverty The Bill could have shown greater ambition and issue seriously. We accept the fact that the record on taken us a lot further down the road towards eradicating child poverty was not great under the last Conservative child poverty. Instead, we have had the perversion of Government. We aim to do better, but none of us the English language, whereby “eradication” no longer progresses policy development in that area if we just try 461 Child Poverty Bill9 DECEMBER 2009 Child Poverty Bill 462 to make cheap partisan remarks or to suggest that speech? Not once did she mention the 2010 target that anyone at any time—Ministers in the 1980s any more this Government set, with a solemn promise that we than today—were indifferent to the welfare of children. would see child poverty halved. She did not even mention They were trying to focus on turning the country around, it, and we can only take politicians seriously on matters from a sick of man of Europe and an economic basket such as tackling poverty if they face up to their record case to a dynamo that could move forward. Of course, to date. [Interruption.] I think the hon. Member for this Government inherited that position in 1997. Northavon wants to intervene again. Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. Could I remind the There has been some progress, but the Government hon. Member that we are not repeating a Second Reading have not moved to tackle child poverty. Of course the debate? I have given him some latitude, and I would irony is that, here we are, with this Child Poverty Bill now ask him to concentrate his remarks on the Third and the Government congratulating themselves on Reading of this particular Bill. introducing it, yet today, in the pre-Budget report, the door has finally been slammed in the faces of those who Mr. Stuart: I am grateful, Madam Deputy Speaker. hoped— Mr. Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): Will my Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. May I remind the hon. Friend give way? hon. Member that there will no doubt be an opportunity Mr. Stuart: I am grateful also to my hon. Friend, who to discuss the pre-Budget report, but that now it is the intervenes conveniently. Third Reading of the Bill? Mr. Stuart: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. It is Mr. Bone: My hon. Friend is making his point powerfully, pre-Budget reports and future Budgets that will need to as usual, but I have been sitting here listening to the put in place the relevant measures, if child poverty and, debate and I must say that one way to reduce child indeed, the long-term roots of poverty are to be tackled. poverty is surely to encourage marriage and for children to be born into families where the parents are married, Mr. Stewart Jackson: The Government talk a good because they stay together longer. It seems as though game about the involvement of local government in the the two other main parties in the House are opposed to eradication of poverty, and they talk about initiatives the idea of encouraging marriage. such as Total Place, whereby they involve Departments across the piece in the support of local government. Mr. Stuart: My hon. Friend makes an interesting However, is it not true that the one Department that point. He was not here during the earlier debate, when I will not devolve power and responsibility for funding to reminded the House of what the Under-Secretary of Total Place and, I suggest, to the eradication of poverty State for Work and Pensions, the hon. Member for is the centralised Department for Work and Pensions? Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman), who is on the The Treasury and other Departments support Total Front Bench today, told the Public Bill Committee. She Place, but the Department for Work and Pensions fails said: to do so. “The Government are not wholly convinced that family breakdown is a cause of poverty”.––[Official Report, Child Poverty Public Bill Mr. Stuart rose— Committee, 20 October 2009; c. 15, Q44.] That is an extraordinary thing for a Minister in this Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. I hope that the hon. Labour Government to say. They are turning themselves Gentleman is not going to be tempted to stray into a away from all the evidence. My hon. Friend the Member very different debate from the one that we are currently for South-West Bedfordshire intervened on me earlier dealing with. to read out the latest set of statistics, provided by the Mr. Stuart: I am extremely mindful of your strictures, Minister’s own Department, which show that a child Madam Deputy Speaker, so I will return to the strategies. brought up in a single-parent family is twice as likely as We know very little about the strategies. That is why a child in a two-parent family to be in poverty. So my my hon. Friend the Member for South-West Bedfordshire hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough (Mr. Bone) tabled amendments to try to ensure that issues such as is absolutely right. family breakdown and looked-after children would be We have a Government who, for their own narrow covered in the Bill so that local authorities and, indeed, ideological or political dividing-lines reasons, insist on the Secretary of State dealt with them properly. It is in turning their face against a fundamental aspect of tackling the strategies that we find the detail of whether we can poverty, which is to restore families and help couples—not come up with a way of genuinely tackling, let alone necessarily married—to stay together to support their eradicating, child poverty. children. We know that if we can help to maintain that situation, general outcomes are much better. There is Dr. William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): Can the less likelihood of children being in poverty, and there is hon. Gentleman assure the House that if we do have a less likelihood of other unpleasant after-effects in later Conservative Government in a matter of months, child life, whether they involve mental health, educational poverty will be a key priority for that Government? outcomes or the likelihood of unemployment. Mr. Stuart: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his The essence of what comes out of the Bill will be the intervention. In the light of what happened with child strategies that local authorities and the Secretary of poverty under the last Conservative Government, I State come up with, but it is most important that we welcome the opportunity to say that it absolutely will be tackle the causes of poverty. The Minister normally a priority. The leader of the Conservative party, my tries to be honest, and she talked about this piece of right hon. Friend the Member for Witney (Mr. Cameron), legislation—this Bill—ensuring that Governments have has said that the eradication of poverty is a major to be held to account and take action on child poverty. priority and that it is how a Conservative Government But, disappointingly, what did she do in her opening would wish to be measured. Statisticians of the talent 463 Child Poverty Bill9 DECEMBER 2009 Child Poverty Bill 464

[Mr. Graham Stuart] Like others, I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Mr. Duncan and skill of the hon. Member for Northavon will be Smith) and the Centre for Social Justice on their work. I able to remind my right hon. Friend, and indeed me, of am glad that my right hon. Friend the shadow Secretary that undertaking. We are pledged to tackle poverty, and of State is in her place, because I wish to say that one of we want to do so in the most joined-up way possible. the most exciting programmes that the next Conservative Government, if that is what we have, could undertake Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. I understand that the would be to follow on from the “Dynamic Benefits” hon. Gentleman is again responding to an intervention, report and consider the barriers preventing those who but may I remind him that we are debating the Third are currently living in poverty from escaping it and Reading of this Bill, not any future Bill? getting into work. We need to understand the incentives that affect those on low income with the same precision Mr. Stuart: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Of with which we seek to understand the incentives for the course, it will be under the auspices of this Bill that any rich, where they may move and what tax they pay. We future Conservative Government would have to address need to ensure that for people who are not in work, child poverty—it will be the lens through which they getting back into work pays and they do not find look at it—so talking about what they would do is what themselves worse off by trying to do the right thing. I the debate on this Bill is about. Unless it is repealed, it do not know the detail of the measure that was announced will determine and set a framework in which future in today’s pre-Budget report, but if it is a response to Governments will have to deal with this important that problem and intended to ensure that those who are issue. not in work are definitely rewarded for getting into work, I will congratulate the Government on it. I hope Mr. Bone: I have been listening to the debate with that it is a reality and not just a pretence. growing concern—I was here when my hon. Friend made his original speech—and I am beginning to wonder 6.56 pm whether I should vote against the Bill. Could he summarise the reasons why I should or should not do so? John Mason: I thank the hon. Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr. Stuart) for leaving me approximately Mr. Stuart: If, like me, my hon. Friend does not like four minutes to make my comments. declaratory legislation, and does not think that targets We are agreed that we need to tackle income inequality. should be set in law because they are a meaningless There has been much mention of the root causes of fraud on the British people, he may well not support the poverty, and we agree that we need to tackle them. I was Bill. On the other hand, he may accept, as Conservative not convinced by the Conservative argument that we Front Benchers do, that this framework provides a should widen the Bill ever further to take everything driver whereby future Governments can show their into account, but income is clearly key. It is worth intent to tackle child poverty. Given the difficulties with reminding ourselves of the explanatory notes to the increases in child poverty in the past, it is tremendously Bill, some of which were extremely good. For example, important that we show the seriousness of intent of they state: Conservative Members who wish and hope to be in “It is nearly impossible to quantify the financial benefits of government shortly; we must make absolutely clear our eradicating child poverty. Growing up in poverty can damage commitment to the eradication of child poverty. That is cognitive, social and emotional development, which are all why, although I understand some of the questions determinants of future outcomes for a child. The Joseph Rowntree about process that my hon. Friend no doubt has, I will Foundation estimates that child poverty costs at least £25 billion a not vote against the Bill. We need to show that there is year in Britain, and that £17 billion could accrue to the Exchequer consensus across the House that child poverty is wrong if child poverty were eradicated. However, this is a possible and we no longer want to see it. Through the details of under-estimate of the true benefit. There are other benefits associated with the eradication of child poverty which are difficult to quantify the strategies that are produced in future, I hope and such as equity, reducing hardship, deprivation and exclusion and expect by a Conservative Secretary of State, we will be breaking the intergenerational poverty link.” able to work away on the root causes of poverty and ensure that they are tackled. I think we all agree on that. I want briefly to mention an amendment dealing with The Child Poverty Action Group and others have rural poverty, which I tabled, unsuccessfully, in Committee. said that we have to put serious extra resources into I appeal to Ministers, while we have them here, and tackling child poverty. They have mentioned a figure of before they go away to produce national strategies in some £3 billion, and the hon. Member for Northavon addition to the local strategies produced by local authorities, (Steve Webb), who has spoken ably today, mentioned a to bear in mind the peculiarities of rural poverty.According figure of £4 billion to £5 billion. That is the kind of sum to the Commission for Rural Communities, 22 per cent. that we would have needed from the Government if of rural children and their families are in financial they were really serious. Without real money, I cannot poverty. There are extra costs to living in rural areas. see how child poverty targets can possibly be met. I For example, households in rural settlements spend know that we are not supposed to venture into the £74.50 on transport each week compared with £57.10 pre-Budget report, but it seems to have done very little by those in urban areas. That is serious money coming to help. out of income that might be thought to be in the hands There are other factors to consider, such as the fact of that family, making it better off than an urban that when people’s work is cut to less than 16 hours, family, but in fact they have to spend it on transport. I they lose tax credits, as well as the particular problem of hope that Ministers will examine carefully the peculiarities single-parent families. In my constituency, there is a real of poverty in rural areas. problem of some kids being able to afford to go on a 465 9 DECEMBER 2009 Business without Debate 466 school trip whereas others in the same class cannot. The REGIONAL SELECT COMMITTEE (LONDON) main issue brought to me is housing problems, and I see Motion made, many youngsters being brought up in seriously overcrowded That Ms Karen Buck, Jeremy Corbyn, Clive Efford, Siobhain accommodation. McDonagh, Mr Andy Slaughter and Mr Andrew Pelling be I agree with those who have said that less than 10 per members of the London Regional Select Committee.—(Mr. Mudie.) cent. of children in relative poverty is a pretty poor target to aim at. Is it ambitious enough? It is certainly Hon. Members: Object. not eradication.

John Barrett (Edinburgh, West) (LD): Does the hon. Gentleman agree that that is the major failing of the SITTINGS OF THE HOUSE Bill? It has redefined the word “eradicate”. Eradicating Motion made, poverty means to wipe it out, and the target is not to That— wipe it out. (1) Standing Order No. 14 (Arrangement of public business) shall have effect for this Session with the following modifications, John Mason: Absolutely. It makes a complete joke of namely: the word. In paragraph (4) the word ‘eight’ shall be substituted for the There are other concerns. The Committee discussed word ‘thirteen’ in line 42 and in paragraph (5) the word ‘fifth’ whether clause 15 will be a get-out clause for the shall be substituted for the word ‘eighth’ in line 44; Government in future. We clearly have to set priorities (2) Standing Order No. 90 (Second reading committees) shall for the time we are living in. I might as well mention have effect for this Session with the following modification, Trident again, because that seems to be more of a namely: priority for the Government than eradicating child poverty. In paragraph (2) the word ‘fifth’ shall be substituted for the There is not time to talk about many other things, but I word ‘eighth’ in line 21; and emphasise that the minimum wage is far too low. We (3) Private Members’ Bills shall have precedence over Government need it to be a living wage, and there is some good work business on 29 January; 5 and 26 February; 5 and 12 March; 23 being done on that in London, Glasgow and elsewhere. and 30 April; and 7 May.—(Mr. Mudie.) I want the Government to be a bit stronger on that, because it would surely go a huge way towards eradicating Hon. Members: Object. child poverty. Finally, I appeal to the Government to work with the Scottish authorities in taking these matters forward. Westminster clearly needs to take— PETITIONS

7pm Badman Report (Mid-Dorset and North Poole) Debate interrupted (Programme Order, 20 July). The Deputy Speaker put forthwith the Question already proposed from the Chair (Standing Order No. 83E), 7.1 pm That the Bill be now read the Third time. Annette Brooke (Mid-Dorset and North Poole) (LD): Question agreed to. My first petition tonight comes from home educators Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed, with who are concerned about the Badman report. The amendments. signatures from my constituency reflect the general concern of home educators up and down the country. The petition states: Business without Debate The Petition of persons resident in the Mid Dorset and North Poole parliamentary constituency, Declares that they are concerned about the recommendations DEFERRED DIVISIONS of the Badman Report, which suggests closer monitoring of Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing home educators, including a compulsory annual registration scheme Order 41A(3)), and right of access to people’s homes for local authority officials; further declares that the Petitioners believe the recommendations That, at this day’s sitting, Standing Order No. 41A (Deferred are based on a review that was extremely rushed, failed to give due divisions) shall not apply to the Motion in the name of the consideration to the evidence, failed to ensure that the data it Chancellor of the Exchequer relating to Corporation Tax.— collected were sufficiently robust, and failed to take proper account (Mr. Mudie.) of the existing legislative framework. Question agreed to. The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families either not to bring forward, or to withdraw, proposed legislative CORPORATION TAX measures providing for tighter registration and monitoring of children educated at home in the absence of a thorough independent Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing inquiry into the condition and future of elective home education Order 118(6)), in England; but instead to take the steps necessary to ensure that That the draft Corporation Tax (Exclusion from Short-Term the existing Elective Home Education Guidelines for Local Authorities Loan Relationships) Regulations 2009, which were laid before are properly implemented, learning from current best practice, in this House on 3 November, in the previous Session of Parliament, all local authorities in England. be approved.—(Mr. Mudie.) And the Petitioners remain, etc. Question agreed to. [P000452] 467 9 DECEMBER 2009 Business without Debate 468

Park Home Sales 7.6 pm Mr. John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD): Some 7.3 pm time ago, I submitted a petition on behalf of thousands of constituents in support of the “Mahoro Must Stay” Annette Brooke: My second petition tonight has been campaign. Unfortunately Adela Mahoro Mugabo is organised by one of my constituents, Sonia McColl. It still under threat of deportation— is about a problem involving park home owners, who are on the whole very vulnerable people, and unscrupulous Madam Deputy Speaker (Sylvia Heal): Order. I park owners. The petition does not in any way suggest understood that the hon. Gentleman’s petition was on that park owners are all unscrupulous, but there are the Badman report. instances that many of us know about when we need to strike a better balance between the two groups of people. Mr. Leech: That was last night, Madam Deputy The petition states: Speaker. The Petition of persons resident in the constituency of Mid Dorset and North Poole and others, Madam Deputy Speaker: I am afraid that my information Declares that the Petitioners believe that unscrupulous park is that his petition is on the Badman report. I accept owners are able to force home owners to accept lower than market what the hon. Gentleman says, but would he be kind value prices for their property, by demanding interviews with enough to see the Clerk at the Table to confirm that his prospective buyers and raising unreasonable objections to purchases. petition has been endorsed by the Journal Office? I can The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons then call him to present his petition. urges the Government to bring forward proposals to amend the Mobile Homes Act 1983, in order to create the following requirements: Climate Change (Copenhagen Talks) that a park owner should not have the right to demand an interview with a person buying a home; that where a park owner 7.7 pm believes an interview is necessary, that interview should be held in the office and in the presence of a lawyer with a registered legal Angela Browning (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con): I practice; that in such a case the lawyer must be satisfied that the present a petition that has been organised by Crediton reasons for the interview are reasonable, that statements made by Climate Action and has signatures from people in the the park owner are not fraudulent, and that the buyer’s references town of Crediton, surrounding villages and many local are satisfactory; that the lawyer concerned must be acceptable to both parties and shall before the interview make himself aware of organisations. Playing an especial part in this have been the contents of the Mobile Homes Act 1983 and other associated my constituents Gerald and Laura Conyngham, who legislation; and that the park owner must meet the cost of the are cycling to Copenhagen from Crediton to take part lawyer’s services. and make their views known. And the Petitioners remain, etc. The petition states: [P000453] The Petition of residents of the constituency of Tiverton and Honiton in Devon and others, regarding the Climate Change Talks in Copenhagen in December 2009, Badman Report (Harborough) Declares that the following should result from the Copenhagen Talks: all countries should agree to take urgent action to reduce 7.5 pm carbon dioxide (CO2) levels in the atmosphere to 350 parts per million; developed countries should take the lead, given our Mr. Edward Garnier (Harborough) (Con): I beg leave major responsibility for past emissions; and developed countries to present a petition from persons resident in my should give financial help to the developing world to help them constituency in the county of Leicestershire. adapt to climate change and invest in renewable energies. The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons The petition states: urges the Government to do all it can at Copenhagen to achieve The Petition of persons resident in the Harborough parliamentary these goals. constituency, And the Petitioners remain, etc. Declares that they are concerned about the recommendations [P000530] of the Badman Report, which suggests closer monitoring of home educators, including a compulsory annual registration scheme Post Office (New England) and right of access to people’s homes for local authority officials; further declares that the Petitioners believe the recommendations are based on a review that was extremely rushed, failed to give due 7.7 pm consideration to the evidence, failed to ensure that the data it collected were sufficiently robust, and failed to take proper account Mr. Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): The New of the existing legislative framework. England post office in Peterborough was closed in 2008. The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons I wish to present the petition of 721 residents of Millfield, urges the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families New England and other areas in the city of Peterborough. either not to bring forward, or to withdraw, proposed legislative The petition states: measures providing for tighter registration and monitoring of The Petition of residents of Millfield and New England and children educated at home in the absence of a thorough independent others, inquiry into the condition and future of elective home education in England; but instead to take the steps necessary to ensure that Declares that New England Post Office ought to be re-opened the existing Elective Home Education Guidelines for Local Authorities The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons are properly implemented, learning from current best practice, in urges the Government to take all possible steps to ensure that all local authorities in England. New England Post Office can be re-opened. And the Petitioners remain, etc. And the Petitioners remain, etc. [P000470] [P000529] 469 Business without Debate9 DECEMBER 2009 Business without Debate 470

Deepcut Army Barracks Military Intelligence of covering up for her husband’s murderers. The Petitioners further declare that Mahoro was tortured and raped, and is now HIV-positive, and that if she is returned to 7.8 pm Rwanda she will still be in danger and will be unable to get the Mr. Paul Burstow (Sutton and Cheam) (LD): I wish anti-retroviral drugs she needs to survive. to present two petitions this evening. The first is on The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons behalf of my constituent, Mr. Gary Hobbs, who collected urges the Home Secretary to instruct a reconsideration of the Home Office decision and allow Adela Mahoro Mugabo to stay a petition of 200 signatures requesting an inquiry into in the UK, a safe environment in which she will be able to lead a the deaths at Deepcut barracks. healthy life. The petition states: And the Petitioners remain, etc. The Petition of residents of Sutton, Cheam, Worcester Park [P000493] and others, Declares that the findings of the Army Board of Inquiry into Badman Report (Bristol West) the deaths of Privates Geoff Gray and James Collinson at Deepcut Army Barracks have not closed the matter and leave questions 7.11 pm unanswered and no one accountable for what happened. The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons Stephen Williams (Bristol, West) (LD): I have a petition calls upon Her Majesty’s Government to sanction a full, independent, to present on behalf of 33 constituents in Bristol, West public inquiry into the deaths of Deepcut Army Barracks between on the same subject as petitions presented by several 1995 and 2002. other hon. Members: the report by Graham Badman And the Petitioners remain, etc. into home educators. To avoid detaining colleagues [P000626] further, I shall not read out the full text of the motion. Following is the full text of the petition: Freedom Pass [The Petition of persons resident in the Bristol West parliamentary constituency, 7.9 pm Declares that they are concerned about the Mr. Burstow: The second of the two petitions is recommendations of the Badman Report, which suggests presented on behalf of many thousands of my constituents closer monitoring of home educators, including a compulsory who contacted my office over the past few weeks, when annual registration scheme and right of access to people’s they learned about the threat now posed to the London homes for local authority officials; further declares that freedom pass as a result of an announcement by the the Petitioners believe the recommendations are based on Department for Transport of a redistribution of funds a review that was extremely rushed, failed to give due from London to other parts of the country to underwrite consideration to the evidence, failed to ensure that the the costs of their concessionary fare schemes. data it collected were sufficiently robust, and failed to The petition reads: take proper account of the existing legislative framework. The Petition of residents of Sutton, Cheam, Worcester Park The Petitioners therefore request that the House of and others, Commons urges the Secretary of State for Children, Declares that the decision of the Secretary of State for Transport Schools and Families either not to bring forward, or to to cut the financial support for concessionary travel for older and withdraw, proposed legislative measures providing for disabled people in London is unfair to the 1.2 million people who tighter registration and monitoring of children educated use the Freedom Pass. Further declares that London Councils at home in the absence of a thorough independent inquiry currently contribute a third of the cost compared to the parts of into the condition and future of elective home education the country where concessionary travel is fully funded by the in England; but instead to take the steps necessary to Government and that the cut in the grant would result in London ensure that the existing Elective Home Education Guidelines Councils covering half of the cost of the scheme. for Local Authorities are properly implemented, learning The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons from current best practice, in all local authorities in calls upon Her Majesty’s Government to drop the plans to cut the funding for the Freedom Pass for elderly and disabled people. England. And the Petitioners remain, etc. And the Petitioners remain, etc.] [P000625] [P000476] Immigration (Adela Mahoro Mugabo) Badman Report (Cheadle)

7.10 pm 7.12 pm Mr. John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD): I Mark Hunter (Cheadle) (LD): I, too, beg the leave of shall try again. Some time ago, I submitted a petition on the House to introduce on behalf of persons resident in behalf of thousands of constituents in support of the the Cheadle constituency a petition expressing their “Mahoro Must Stay” campaign. Unfortunately, Adela grave concerns about the recommendations of the Badman Mahoro Mugabo remains under threat of deportation report. The wording is exactly the same as the petition and I am now submitting a petition signed by a further read out earlier by my hon. Friend the Member for 1,300 people who support the campaign. Mid-Dorset and North Poole (Annette Brooke). The petition is as follows: Following is the full text of the petition: The Petition of the Mahoro Must Stay Campaign, [The Petition of persons resident in Cheadle, Declares that Adela Mahoro Mugabo, who is to be removed to Declares that they are concerned about the Rwanda, is the widow of a man murdered in 2002 by the Interharamwe recommendations of the Badman Report, which suggests Hutus, and as a Hutu herself was accused by the Rwandan closer monitoring of home educators, including a compulsory 471 Business without Debate 9 DECEMBER 2009 472

[Mark Hunter] Upper Gastrointestinal Surgery Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House annual registration scheme and right of access to people’s do now adjourn.—(Mr. Mudie.) homes for local authority officials; further declares that the Petitioners believe the recommendations are based on 7.14 pm a review that was extremely rushed, failed to give due consideration to the evidence, failed to ensure that the Angela Browning (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con): It is data it collected were sufficiently robust, and failed to probably about two years ago that Devon primary care take proper account of the existing legislative framework. trust informed us, through their then chief executive, Dr. Kevin Snee, that it had been proposed that the The Petitioners therefore request that the House of upper gastrointestinal unit at Wonford hospital in Exeter Commons urges the Secretary of State for Children, be moved to and merge with the unit in Derriford Schools and Families either not to bring forward, or to hospital in Plymouth. In principle, I have no objections withdraw, proposed legislative measures providing for to proposals, including this one, that aim to create tighter registration and monitoring of children educated centres of excellence where surgeons can deal with a at home in the absence of a thorough independent inquiry much wider range of patients and a much larger catchment into the condition and future of elective home education area to improve their expertise in what is a very difficult in England; but instead to take the steps necessary to area of surgery. Indeed, I support the call for centres of ensure that the existing Elective Home Education Guidelines excellence. for Local Authorities are properly implemented, learning from current best practice, in all local authorities in In the discussions that I had with the then chief England. executive, it became clear to me that the facilities at Exeter would be moved to Plymouth and that, from And the Petitioners remain, etc.] that, the centre would grow. However, the upper GI [P000612] unit at Wonford hospital in Exeter has developed as a Badman Report (Brecon and Radnorshire) national centre of excellence, using keyhole surgery to perform what are known as minimally invasive oesophagectomies—in other words, the removal of the 7.13 pm oesophagus, a serious operation, usually required because Mr. Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): of cancer, and one that surgeons need a great deal of By leave of the House, I beg to lay a petition regarding experience to perform. To be able to carry out MIOs— the Badman report that has been signed by seven residents which are much easier to say—it was promised that the of Brecon and Radnorshire. The wording is very similar, excellence that had been developed in the centre at or identical, to the petition presented by my hon. Friend Exeter would be moved with the unit to Derriford the Member for Mid-Dorset and North Poole (Annette hospital. Brooke), therefore I shall not detain the House. Under normal circumstances, the operation requires Following is the full text of the petition: major open surgery, with the surgeon opening not only the chest cavity of the thorax, in order to access the [The Petition of persons resident in the Brecon and oesophagus, but the abdomen. As one can imagine, that Radnorshire parliamentary constituency, is a very large operation indeed. The surgical removal of Declares that they are concerned about the the oesophagus has large implications for quality of life recommendations of the Badman Report, which suggests and recovery after surgery. However, as they have been closer monitoring of home educators, including a compulsory developed over the years, it has been demonstrated and annual registration scheme and right of access to people’s proven at Exeter that MIOs, where the thorax and the homes for local authority officials; further declares that abdomen are entered using keyhole surgery, have a most the Petitioners believe the recommendations are based on beneficial effect on both post-operative recovery and a review that was extremely rushed, failed to give due quality of life, particularly where there are later consideration to the evidence, failed to ensure that the reoccurrences of the carcinoma. data it collected were sufficiently robust, and failed to Since 2004, two surgeons at Exeter, Mr. Richard take proper account of the existing legislative framework. Berrisford and Mr. Saj Wajed, have done that operation The Petitioners therefore request that the House of in preference to open surgery. The Exeter MIO unit has Commons urges the Secretary of State for Children, submitted many papers to MIGOCS, the minimally Schools and Families either not to bring forward, or to invasive gastrooesophageal cancer study, which is run withdraw, proposed legislative measures providing for by the Oxford university medical school. The Exeter tighter registration and monitoring of children educated MIO unit is the only established UK unit that has at home in the absence of a thorough independent inquiry published its data, published a safety algorithm and into the condition and future of elective home education proven that its techniques result in the rapid restoration in England; but instead to take the steps necessary to of quality of life, and it is also undertaking further ensure that the existing Elective Home Education Guidelines research. Exeter is the UK’s largest contributor to that for Local Authorities are properly implemented, learning national study, as a result of the work done in the MIO from current best practice, in all local authorities in unit. Therefore, although I and my hon. Friend the England. Member for East Devon (Mr. Swire), who has raised And the Petitioners remain, etc.] the matter with Ministers in the past, have an interest in [P000623] Devon and the wider west country, the unit is also of national importance, which is why I am raising the issue on the Floor of the House. I was first alerted to the problems that have arisen with the removal of the MIO unit from Exeter to 473 Upper Gastrointestinal Surgery9 DECEMBER 2009 Upper Gastrointestinal Surgery 474

Derriford only recently, by Hannah Foster, the Conservative would want that operation to be done by a person who prospective parliamentary candidate for Exeter, who was doing many such operations, and I would be prepared was in touch with the local patients group. Patients, to travel to do that. Patient safety is important, and who included my constituents, were concerned that they some procedures, including this one, are of such a would be denied MIO treatment and that the MIO specialised nature that they should not be left to generalist surgeons, who were meant to have helped establish the surgeons, who do not see or treat enough patients who MIO unit at Plymouth by last September following the require such a procedure in the course of a year to move from Exeter, had not been able to do so. develop sufficient expertise. So I might be disagreeing with the hon. Gentleman on that. Mr. Hugo Swire (East Devon) (Con): I congratulate my hon. Friend and neighbour on achieving this debate. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for East I raised the issue in Parliament more than two years ago Devon, however, when he says that the way in which the and have continued to do so since. She referred to the primary care trust has gone about all this looks extremely move and the culture of secrecy surrounding it. Does sinister. The Exeter surgeons should have been in the she agree with my constituent Mr. David Hamilton of Derriford unit by last September, as promised, and Sidmouth, who is currently undergoing treatment, and working as a team. Teamwork is important in building others who have raised the issue, who say that people up the necessary expertise. We have seen examples in are not allowed to talk to politicians? A culture of other parts of the country of units not making such a secrecy seems to have been created, with a rather sinister transition smoothly. The result is that the consultants air of intimidation surrounding the entire proposal to do not have enough time to build up their expertise relocate—a proposal that I do not believe adds anything before starting to carry out these procedures. The to the argument, but which makes us in this place rather consequences of that will be obvious to everyone. suspicious about the motives behind it all. Does my Plymouth has not yet carried out a full MIO of the hon. Friend agree with me that the proposal is not type done at Exeter. Nor has it yet filed any papers with benefiting anybody? the Oxford study that I mentioned, to which Exeter has contributed more than any other organisation in the Angela Browning: I do agree with my hon. Friend. country. It has not registered its patients on the national There is already a unit in Plymouth, at Derriford hospital, register database in Oxford. I therefore believe that, in and it might well claim that it does keyhole surgery. the interests of patient safety, Derriford should not be However, the procedure that it carries out is not the expected to replicate what is being done at Exeter same as that carried out at Exeter. The procedure at without the proper transitional arrangements in place Plymouth tends to be either keyhole surgery in the which are seen to work. That has not happened yet, and thorax with open surgery in the abdomen, or vice versa. I would be very concerned if such procedures were to In other words, it is hybrid in nature. take place without those transitional arrangements. The The fact that everyone had been informed that the health scrutiny committee of Devon county council has move from Exeter to Plymouth would have taken place referred the case to the Minister, because it is so worried by September of this year—so that, under the supervision about it. of the Exeter surgeons, the unit would ideally have been A further concern is that patients who are now presenting up and running in Plymouth by early 2010—is a matter to the surgeons in Exeter are being told that the unit will of great concern. I shall turn in a moment to the subject not offer them operations after the new year. I received that my hon. Friend has just raised. Patients are worried, a phone call earlier from one of my constituents who and doctors do not know where they stand, and we face was told by phone only this morning—I do not know the potential loss of a groundbreaking unit, not only in whether that was connected to our holding this debate—that the west country but in the rest of the country. an exception would be made, and that he would receive Andrew George (St. Ives) (LD): Will the hon. Lady his surgery in the MIO unit in Exeter in February. That give way? makes it sound as if it is a one-off case and it does not look as though it will solve the whole problem that I Angela Browning: I promised the hon. Gentleman have brought before the House tonight. The Minister is that I would allow him to intervene in this debate. involved and there should be some national intervention in this case, not least because of the research at the Andrew George: The hon. Lady is making some Exeter MIO unit. important points. May I first apologise to the Minister, because I might not be able to stay in the Chamber to The research is known as the LOGIC programme; I hear his closing remarks? The hon. Lady has raised an am sorry about all the acronyms. The laparoscopic important issue that also affects Cornwall. It involves gastric ischaemic conditioning trial is approved by the the whole issue of planning for upper gastrointestinal Devon and Torbay ethics committee, has been running cancer surgery. I entirely accept the view of the Devon since April and has so far recruited 15 patients. It and Cornwall peninsula cancer network that patient requires a total of 44 to complete the study. If there is a safety must be paramount in the planning of these break in the established MIO service, there will not be a services, but does she agree that, rather than taking sufficient number of patients to allow the research to be decisions about sub-specialty surgical interventions for completed. It is a very important piece of research. It is cancer in a piecemeal manner, as is the case at the so important that one of our local cancer charities moment, we need to take a broader, more strategic view based in Exeter, FORCE—Friends of the oncology and of how all these interventions are managed across the radiotherapy centre—has donated £20,000 to the research whole peninsula? project. People locally have put their firm commitment behind the research. Angela Browning: I am not sure that I have understood Will the Minister confirm tonight that the MIO unit the hon. Gentleman correctly. I said earlier, however, in Exeter will continue until such time that it is safely—and that if I needed treatment for oesophageal cancer, I I mean safely—established in Plymouth? If not, why is 475 Upper Gastrointestinal Surgery9 DECEMBER 2009 Upper Gastrointestinal Surgery 476

[Angela Browning] expressed by the hon. Lady, I am sure she will appreciate that if further improvements are to be made in cancer this being done against the clear recommendations of surgery and if better outcomes are to be delivered for the health scrutiny committee and contrary to what was patients, local clinicians must be able to secure local promised personally to surgeons, patients and MPs by solutions to the various issues that are raised. In 2008-09, the primary care trust? Why has Plymouth failed to a total of 3,668 major oesophagogastric procedures develop a total MIO, despite giving the reassurance that took place in England. I understand that about 50 patients it would develop it in September 2009, by which time we currently undergo surgery for oesophagogastric cancer would have hoped that it would be well on the way to each year at Derriford hospital in Plymouth, some of being established? whom are from Cornwall. About 47 patients undergo Will patients in Devon now have to accept the choice surgery at Royal Devon and Exeter hospital in Exeter, of open surgery, which they do not want—those who and about 20 undergo surgery at Royal Cornwall hospital have seen what is done at Exeter clearly opt for the in Truro. minimally invasive surgery—or will they be faced with I understand that Devon primary care trust, working the very real risks of a learning curve in developing a with the South West strategic health authority and the new highly complex operation in a unit not familiar peninsula cancer network, has considered the improving with this procedure? As I have mentioned, there have outcomes guidance recommendations for upper been disastrous parallels in previous examples of gastrointestinal cancers, and that discussion took place centralisation. I will not name them, but I am happy to with local people. The proposal is that from 1 January tell the Minister privately where we have seen the procedure next year the oesophagogastric surgical unit at Plymouth bomb as a result of the transition not being implemented Hospitals NHS Trust will expand to become the centralised properly and surgeons not having sufficient time or a specialist surgical unit for patients from Devon and team built around them to carry out the transition Cornwall with oesophageal and gastric cancer. properly. As part of its commitment to placing patients and A final aspect of the problem is that people come the public at the centre of health services, the Government from far and wide for the procedure in Exeter—not just have established an independent scrutiny and review from the south-west but from all parts of the country, process for local change. I will deal with that shortly, because the procedure is unique. If the MIO unit closes and will deal in particular with the views of the overview in Exeter and is not reopened in Plymouth, a private and scrutiny committee, which were raised by the hon. patient could opt to have the MIO procedure and all the Lady. The proposed change is intended to start from 1 associated benefits if they are prepared to pay for it. January, which is fairly soon. The local NHS has finalised NHS patients, however, who until now have had the implementation plans, and patients in the south-west choice and the benefits of the procedure, will be denied peninsula requiring specialist upper gastrointestinal cancer it. I really do not understand why something so surgery will be given their surgical treatment in Plymouth groundbreaking and so important to our constituents, from that date. The surgical element of their treatment as well as being in the national interest, should be will no longer be provided by Royal Cornwall hospital denied to the NHS. Something has gone seriously wrong in Truro or by Royal Devon and Exeter NHS Foundation with the way in which the process has been carried out, Trust. I recognise that there is a specific case of which I and I would like the Minister to investigate what it is was not aware. I shall establish further information and put it right. about it and report to the hon. Lady on whether it indicates any sort of precedent, because at present I 7.28 pm simply do not know. The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr. Mike The peninsula cancer network has told my Department O’Brien): I congratulate the hon. Member for Tiverton that the whole surgical team is experienced and properly and Honiton (Angela Browning) on securing the debate. trained in both open and minimally invasive techniques The fast and effective treatment of cancer is one of for oesophageal and gastric cancer surgery. the national health service’s highest priorities. As a result of massive and sustained investment in the NHS Angela Browning: Will the Minister give way? and in cancer services by this Government, paying for more consultants, more nurses, more National Institute Mr. O’Brien: If the hon. Lady allows me to say a little for Health and Clinical Excellence-approved drugs and more, she may understand my point. far better facilities, there are now almost 9,000 fewer There is no nationally recognised definition of MIO, deaths every year than there were before 1997. although this is a national issue. In Plymouth, the plan In 2000, we published the NHS cancer plan, setting is to investigate both the role and the definition of out how we would improve cancer treatment and ensure minimally invasive techniques for oesophageal cancer high-quality services for patients. The plan committed as part of a multi-centre study. the NHS to implementing the latest authoritative guidance available on all aspects of NHS cancer care. However, I Angela Browning rose— can assure the hon. Lady that decisions about exactly where and how care will be provided are local decisions. Mr. O’Brien: The hon. Lady may still wish to respond, It is a matter for the local NHS, working with cancer bearing that point in mind. networks, clinicians, patients and other stakeholders; it is not for Ministers to decide that in Whitehall. Angela Browning: I said I was aware that keyhole The Department, supported by the national cancer surgery had been performed at Plymouth. So far, however, action team, has been monitoring progress in the context a single case has not involved keyhole surgery throughout of local plans. Although I understand the concern the procedure. Only hybrid operations have been performed 477 Upper Gastrointestinal Surgery9 DECEMBER 2009 Upper Gastrointestinal Surgery 478 at Derriford. I believe that this is an urgent matter That brings me on to the hon. Lady’s point about the involving the safety of patients. If what the Minister is local health OSC. I am concerned about that, of course, telling me is accurate, either those at Derriford are because such committees can refer proposals to the going to replicate what is done at Exeter—they have not Secretary of State for Health, which he can then pass on done that to date, which that means that they would to the independent reconfiguration panel for consideration practise on the first few patients, and that would worry and independent advice. On 20 November 2009, the me—or they will drop the full MIO procedure. Devon OSC informed the Department of Health that it would refer the proposals to the Secretary of State. A Mr. O’Brien: I will make further inquiries about the letter from the committee providing the grounds for its hon. Lady’s point. I will say, however, that the intention referral was received by the Department on 4 December. is for the internationally recognised research on MIO at However, I now understand from the local NHS that Exeter to be supported and developed at Plymouth. the committee has said it will be writing again to the Once the clinical service has been established, it is Secretary of State, seeking to “clarify” its position on its intended to support and pursue the research programme original referral. We await that letter, to discover what currently under way in Exeter and to develop further the clarification is, and whether or not it is referring, projects. It is also the case that, following the publication and if so, what exactly it is referring. I initially thought of the review carried out by Professor Mike Griffin and the letter was clear, but it now appears that it is not and Mr. Bill Allum, a period of public engagement was that it needs further clarification. As the hon. Lady will carried out, with various local meetings. appreciate, it is not appropriate for me to comment in I understand the concerns that have been raised, and detail on the issue at this stage, and certainly not before we have looked into some of those raised by the Devon the Secretary of State has had the opportunity to consider OSC. The PCN has confirmed that equipment to undertake the additional letter from the OSC. I understand that the open and minimally invasive procedures is in place in local NHS is continuing to ensure that there will be full Plymouth. Additional equipment has been ordered, implementation of upper GI surgery at Plymouth on after discussion with a senior surgeon at the Royal 1 January. That is the current situation. Devon and Exeter, and it will be delivered shortly. This All patients affected by planned changes will be given will not impact on the delivery of the service from support with transport and accommodation. As I stated 1 January. earlier, the local organisation of health care services is Angela Browning: I hear what the Minister says about dictated not by Ministers or civil servants in Whitehall, the equipment being ready at Derriford. However, if I but by the local health care professionals on the ground. wanted to climb Everest, I could order the equipment The criteria by which any changes should be introduced over the internet and have it all ready, but although I are that they are clinically-led, that they are focused on might be a bit of a mountaineer, that would not make the best outcomes for patients and, of course, that they me ready to climb Everest. Experience and practice are meet the highest levels of patient safety. I urge MPs who required to go with that kit, and an experienced team as have concerns about the proposals coming from their well. local health service to contact their primary care trust. I understand from NHS Devon that the hon. Lady has Mr. O’Brien: The hon. Lady puts her case very eloquently, not, as yet, been engaging with it and that it would but I have to say that the PCN has confirmed that the appreciate it were she to do so. I also made inquiries as whole surgical team is experienced and properly trained to whether Hannah Foster, a prospective Conservative in both open and minimally invasive techniques for parliamentary candidate who was quoted in the local oesophageal and gastric cancer surgery. As was described media, had been in contact with NHS Devon. Sadly, she in the AUGIS—Association of Upper Gastrointestinal has apparently not raised issues with NHS Devon, Surgeons of Great Britain—consensus statement of other than by attending an engagement meeting. If she 2008, there will be two consultant surgeons operating wants to do something that is to be taken seriously, on each case, which will allow for the incorporation of engaging with NHS Devon would be an appropriate skills from around the peninsula and the appropriate course for her to take, rather than just dealing with the supervision and mentorship model for minimally invasive media. surgery. As also described in the AUGIS consensus With local leadership and national guidelines based statement, there is no recognised definition of MIO, on the latest evidence, we are continuing to seek to and these matters will need to be looked at. ensure that cancer care is delivered in centres of excellence, I am concerned by what the hon. Lady says and I will which ensure that people get the best quality treatment. make some further inquiries, but we have been given The hon. Lady has raised a number of concerns. I shall reassurances, and, essentially, this is a local matter. We go back to NHS Devon to make inquiries about some therefore have to rely on local clinicians to say whether of the points that she has raised and then write to her or they can do this. At present, they are coming back to us, meet her, if she wishes me to do so. I aim to ensure that through the appropriate procedures they have, and saying, in so far as she or I can be satisfied, given that neither of “Yes, we can do this.” She is saying that she believes the us are clinicians, such reassurances as can be given will qualifications and experience are not in place. I will be given. It is important that people know that they are look again, and we will go back to the local clinicians, receiving safe treatment at a centre of excellence and but she says something different from what they are that such an important operation is being delivered at a currently telling us. I am not an expert clinician, and no place where they can rely on that excellence being more is she, and neither of us knows whether those delivered to them. skills are in place. All she can do is report what is being Question put and agreed to. said to her, and all I can do is report back what I am being told. This is, however, a matter to be resolved 7.41 pm locally, rather than nationally. House adjourned. 479 9 DECEMBER 2009 Deferred Division 480

Deferred Division Hope, Phil Morley, rh Mr. Elliot Hopkins, Kelvin Mountford, Kali Howarth, rh Mr. George Mudie, Mr. George ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION Howells, rh Dr. Kim Mullin, Mr. Chris That the draft Environmental Permitting (England and Wales) Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay Murphy, Mr. Denis (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2009, which were laid before Humble, Mrs. Joan Murphy, rh Mr. Jim this House on 28 October, in the previous Session of Parliament, Hutton, rh Mr. John Murphy, rh Mr. Paul be approved. Iddon, Dr. Brian Naysmith, Dr. Doug The House divided: Ayes 284, Noes 192. Illsley, Mr. Eric Norris, Dan Division No. 18] Ingram, rh Mr. Adam O’Brien, rh Mr. Mike Irranca-Davies, Huw O’Hara, Mr. Edward Jenkins, Mr. Brian Olner, Mr. Bill AYES Johnson, rh Alan Osborne, Sandra Abbott, Ms Diane Crausby, Mr. David Johnson, Ms Diana R. Owen, Albert Ainger, Nick Creagh, Mary Jones, Helen Palmer, Dr. Nick Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas Cryer, Mrs. Ann Jones, Mr. Kevan Pearson, Ian Allen, Mr. Graham Cummings, John Jones, Lynne Plaskitt, Mr. James Anderson, Mr. David Cunningham, Mr. Jim Jones, Mr. Martyn Pope, Mr. Greg Anderson, Janet Cunningham, Tony Joyce, Mr. Eric Prentice, Bridget Armstrong, rh Hilary David, Mr. Wayne Keeble, Ms Sally Prentice, Mr. Gordon Austin, Mr. Ian Davidson, Mr. Ian Keeley, Barbara Primarolo, rh Dawn Austin, John Dean, Mrs. Janet Keen, Alan Prosser, Gwyn Bailey, Mr. Adrian Denham, rh Mr. John Keen, Ann Purchase, Mr. Ken Bain, Mr. William Dismore, Mr. Andrew Kelly, rh Ruth Purnell, rh James Balls, rh Ed Dobbin, Jim Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick Barlow, Ms Celia Dobson, rh Frank Kidney, Mr. David Reed, Mr. Andy Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Donohoe, Mr. Brian H. Knight, rh Jim Reid, rh John Battle, rh John Doran, Mr. Frank Kumar, Dr. Ashok Riordan, Mrs. Linda Bayley, Hugh Eagle, Angela Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Rooney, Mr. Terry Beckett, rh Margaret Eagle, Maria Lammy, rh Mr. David Roy, Mr. Frank Begg, Miss Anne Efford, Clive Laxton, Mr. Bob Roy, Lindsay Bell, Sir Stuart Ellman, Mrs. Louise Lazarowicz, Mark Ruane, Chris Benn, rh Hilary Engel, Natascha Lepper, David Ruddock, Joan Benton, Mr. Joe Ennis, Jeff Levitt, Tom Russell, Christine Berry, Roger Field, rh Mr. Frank Lewis, Mr. Ivan Ryan, rh Joan Betts, Mr. Clive Fitzpatrick, Jim Linton, Martin Salter, Martin Blackman, Liz Flint, rh Caroline Lloyd, Tony Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta Flynn, Paul Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn Seabeck, Alison Blears, rh Hazel Follett, Barbara Love, Mr. Andrew Sharma, Mr. Virendra Blizzard, Mr. Bob Foster, Michael Jabez Lucas, Ian Shaw, Jonathan Blunkett, rh Mr. David (Hastings and Rye) Mackinlay, Andrew Sheerman, Mr. Barry Borrow, Mr. David S. Francis, Dr. Hywel Mactaggart, Fiona Sheridan, Jim Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben Gapes, Mike Malik, Mr. Shahid Simon, Mr. Siôn Brennan, Kevin George, rh Mr. Bruce Mallaber, Judy Simpson, Alan Brown, Lyn Gerrard, Mr. Neil Mann, John Singh, Mr. Marsha Brown, Mr. Russell Goggins, rh Paul Marsden, Mr. Gordon Skinner, Mr. Dennis Browne, rh Des Goodman, Helen Martlew, Mr. Eric Slaughter, Mr. Andy Bryant, Chris Griffith, Nia McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Smith, rh Mr. Andrew Burden, Richard Griffiths, Nigel McCabe, Steve Smith, Ms Angela C. Burgon, Colin Grogan, Mr. John McCarthy, Kerry (Sheffield, Hillsborough) Burnham, rh Andy Gwynne, Andrew McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Smith, rh Angela E. (Basildon) Butler, Ms Dawn Hain, rh Mr. Peter McCartney, rh Mr. Ian Smith, Geraldine Byers, rh Mr. Stephen Hall, Mr. Mike McDonnell, Dr. Alasdair Snelgrove, Anne Byrne, rh Mr. Liam Hall, Patrick McDonnell, John Soulsby, Sir Peter Caborn, rh Mr. Richard Hamilton, Mr. David McFadden, rh Mr. Pat Southworth, Helen Campbell, Mr. Alan Hanson, rh Mr. David McFall, rh John Spellar, rh Mr. John Campbell, Mr. Ronnie Harman, rh Ms Harriet McGuire, rh Mrs. Anne Spink, Bob Caton, Mr. Martin Harris, Mr. Tom McIsaac, Shona Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Cawsey, Mr. Ian Havard, Mr. Dai McKechin, Ann Stewart, Ian Challen, Colin Healey, rh John McKenna, Rosemary Stoate, Dr. Howard Chaytor, Mr. David Hendrick, Mr. Mark McNulty, rh Mr. Tony Strang, rh Dr. Gavin Clapham, Mr. Michael Hepburn, Mr. Stephen Merron, Gillian Straw, rh Mr. Jack Clark, Ms Katy Heppell, Mr. John Michael, rh Alun Stringer, Graham Clark, Paul Hesford, Stephen Milburn, rh Mr. Alan Stuart, Ms Gisela Clarke, rh Mr. Charles Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia Miliband, rh David Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry Clarke,rhMr.Tom Heyes, David Miliband, rh Edward Tami, Mark Coaker, Mr. Vernon Hill, rh Keith Miller, Andrew Taylor, Ms Dari Cohen, Harry Hillier, Meg Moffatt, Laura Taylor, David Cook, Frank Hodge, rh Margaret Mole, Chris Taylor, Dr. Richard Cooper, rh Yvette Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon Moon, Mrs. Madeleine Thornberry, Emily Corbyn, Jeremy Hoey, Kate Morden, Jessica Timms, rh Mr. Stephen Cousins, Jim Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey Morgan, Julie Todd, Mr. Mark 481 Deferred Division9 DECEMBER 2009 Deferred Division 482

Touhig, rh Mr. Don Wicks, rh Malcolm Holloway, Mr. Adam Penning, Mike Trickett, Jon Williams, rh Mr. Alan Holmes, Paul Penrose, John Truswell, Mr. Paul Williams, Hywel Howarth, David Pickles, Mr. Eric Turner, Mr. Neil Wilson, Phil Howarth, Mr. Gerald Pugh, Dr. John Twigg, Derek Winnick, Mr. David Howell, John Randall, Mr. John Ussher, Kitty Wood, Mike Hughes, Simon Redwood, rh Mr. John Vaz, rh Keith Woodward, rh Mr. Shaun Huhne, Chris Reid, Mr. Alan Waltho, Lynda Woolas, Mr. Phil Hunt, Mr. Jeremy Rennie, Willie Ward, Claire Wright, David Hunter, Mark Robathan, Mr. Andrew Wareing, Mr. Robert N. Wright, Mr. Iain Hurd, Mr. Nick Robertson, Hugh Watson, Mr. Tom Wright, Dr. Tony Jack, rh Mr. Michael Robinson, Mrs. Iris Watts, Mr. Dave Wyatt, Derek Jackson, Mr. Stewart Robinson, rh Mr. Peter Jenkin, Mr. Bernard Rogerson, Dan NOES Jones, Mr. David Rosindell, Andrew Keetch, Mr. Paul Rowen, Paul Afriyie, Adam Davey, Mr. Edward Kennedy, rh Mr. Charles Russell, Bob Ainsworth, Mr. Peter Davies, Mr. Dai Key, Robert Scott, Mr. Lee Alexander, Danny Davies, David T.C. Knight, rh Mr. Greg Selous, Andrew Amess, Mr. David (Monmouth) Kramer, Susan Shapps, Grant Ancram, rh Mr. Michael Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan Laing, Mrs. Eleanor Shepherd, Mr. Richard Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James Dodds, Mr. Nigel Lait, Mrs. Jacqui Simmonds, Mark Atkinson, Mr. Peter Duddridge, James Lamb, Norman Simpson, David Bacon, Mr. Richard Dunne, Mr. Philip Lansley, Mr. Andrew Simpson, Mr. Keith Baker, Norman Evans, Mr. Nigel Laws, Mr. David Smith, Chloe Barker, Gregory Fabricant, Michael Leech, Mr. John Spelman, Mrs. Caroline Baron, Mr. John Farron, Tim Leigh, Mr. Edward Spicer, Sir Michael Barrett, John Featherstone, Lynne Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver Spring, Mr. Richard Beith, rh Sir Alan Field, Mr. Mark Lewis, Dr. Julian Streeter, Mr. Gary Bellingham, Mr. Henry Foster, Mr. Don Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian Swayne, Mr. Desmond Benyon, Mr. Richard Fox, Dr. Liam Lidington, Mr. David Swinson, Jo Blunt, Mr. Crispin Francois, Mr. Mark Lilley, rh Mr. Peter Swire, Mr. Hugo Bone, Mr. Peter Fraser, Christopher Loughton, Tim Syms, Mr. Robert Boswell, Mr. Tim Garnier, Mr. Edward Luff, Peter Tapsell, Sir Peter Bottomley, Peter George, Andrew Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew Teather, Sarah Brady, Mr. Graham Gibb, Mr. Nick Main, Anne Timpson, Mr. Edward Brake, Tom Gidley, Sandra Malins, Mr. Humfrey Tredinnick, David Brazier, Mr. Julian Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl Maples, Mr. John Turner, Mr. Andrew Breed, Mr. Colin Goldsworthy, Julia Mates, rh Mr. Michael Vara, Mr. Shailesh Brooke, Annette Goodman, Mr. Paul May, rh Mrs. Theresa Wallace, Mr. Ben Browne, Mr. Jeremy Goodwill, Mr. Robert McCrea, Dr. William Waterson, Mr. Nigel Browning, Angela Gray, Mr. James McIntosh, Miss Anne Burns, Mr. Simon Grayling, Chris Watkinson, Angela McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick Webb, Steve Burrowes, Mr. David Green, Damian Miller, Mrs. Maria Wiggin, Bill Burstow, Mr. Paul Greening, Justine Milton, Anne Williams, Mr. Roger Burt, Alistair Grieve, Mr. Dominic Moore, Mr. Michael Williams, Stephen Burt, Lorely Hague, rh Mr. William Moss, Mr. Malcolm Willis, Mr. Phil Butterfill, Sir John Hammond, Stephen Mulholland, Greg Cameron, rh Mr. David Hancock, Mr. Mike Murrison, Dr. Andrew Willott, Jenny Campbell, Mr. Gregory Hands, Mr. Greg Neill, Robert Wilson, Mr. Rob Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Harper, Mr. Mark Newmark, Mr. Brooks Wilson, Sammy Clark, Greg Heald, Mr. Oliver O’Brien, Mr. Stephen Winterton, Ann Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth Heath, Mr. David Öpik, Lembit Winterton, Sir Nicholas Clegg, rh Mr. Nick Hemming, John Ottaway, Richard Wright, Jeremy Cormack, Sir Patrick Hendry, Charles Paterson, Mr. Owen Young, rh Sir George Cox, Mr. Geoffrey Herbert, Nick Pelling, Mr. Andrew Younger-Ross, Richard Crabb, Mr. Stephen Hoban, Mr. Mark Curry, rh Mr. David Hollobone, Mr. Philip Question accordingly agreed to.

73WH 9 DECEMBER 2009 Burma 74WH

the United States or its Asian neighbours, it would take Westminster Hall the important first step of releasing the political prisoners, Aung San Suu Kyi in particular? Wednesday 9 December 2009 Mr. Evans: That is one of the things we want to see. That has to happen before people will take the junta [MR.MIKE HANCOCK in the Chair] seriously. It is not just Aung San Suu Kyi. As my hon. Friend rightly said, a number of other political prisoners Burma are being detained as we speak. Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Ind): Does the hon. Gentleman be now adjourned.—(Mr. Blizzard.) agree that this odious regime is using the mental health system to remove and illegally detain politically active 9.30 am monks who are seeking justice and fairness for the people and for the regime’s political opponents? Mr. Nigel Evans (Ribble Valley) (Con): It is a delight to serve under your chairmanship, Mr. Hancock. Mr. Evans: Absolutely. I will refer to that later. It is highly appropriate that we are considering the Despite being detained, Aung San Suu Kyi has human rights crisis in Burma just one day before we courageously and consistently called for dialogue with mark the anniversary of the universal declaration of her captors. On 20 May this year, from inside Insein human rights and celebrate international human rights prison, she said: day. Burma is ruled by one of the world’s most brutal regimes, which is guilty of every possible violation of “It is still not too late to achieve national reconciliation.” human rights. The military regime, known as the State In September, she wrote to the head of the regime, Peace and Development Council, has cruelly suppressed Senior General Than Shwe, proposing dialogue. May I democracy and is perpetrating war crimes and crimes ask the Minister what the United Kingdom and the against humanity against many of its people. European Union are doing to support Aung San Suu The Nobel laureate and democracy leader, Aung San Kyi’s call for dialogue and to urge the regime to come to Suu Kyi, led her party, the National League for Democracy, the table? Two months ago on 9 October, she met the to a remarkable and overwhelming victory in elections British ambassador for the first time in at least six years. held in 1990. Despite the party winning 82 per cent. of What was the outcome of that meeting and what attempts the parliamentary seats, 19 years on, most of those who are being made by the United Kingdom to secure were elected are in jail or in exile. The junta rejected the further such meetings? results, imprisoned the victors and has intensified its Aung San Suu Kyi has stated clearly to the regime grip on power. Aung San Suu Kyi has spent over that she would like to work with it to 14 years under house arrest. “create conditions conducive to lifting of sanctions on Burma”. In May this year, her term expired and even under Let us be clear that the conditions conducive to lifting Burmese law, she should have been released. However, sanctions do not yet exist. The United States has made the regime found an excuse to keep her under house it clear that it will maintain existing sanctions while arrest after an American, John Yettaw, swam across the pursing high-level engagement, until there are clear and lake to her home. He went there uninvited, she asked tangible signs of meaningful progress. Does the Minister him to leave and he refused. Despite that, she was taken agree with me that the European Union should not lift to Insein prison and charged with breaking the terms of any sanctions unless and until all political prisoners, her house arrest. A sham trial followed and she was including Aung San Suu Kyi, are released; a nationwide sentenced on 11 August to a further 18 months of house ceasefire against ethic nationalities is declared; and a arrest. meaningful and irreversible process of tripartite dialogue between the regime, the National League for Democracy Mr. Lindsay Hoyle (Chorley) (Lab): I congratulate and the ethnic nationalities is begun? Furthermore, the hon. Gentleman on securing this important debate. does he agree that unless the regime ends its campaign He is right that the charges were trumped up. Does he of brutality against the ethnic nationalities, the next agree that if it had not been for the American journalist European Union common position on Burma should swimming across the lake, the regime would have found tighten sanctions, including the introduction of new other charges to ensure that Aung San Suu Kyi remained targeted financial sanctions such as a ban on insurance in prison for much longer? companies, which would affect some of the sectors from which the regime benefits most? Mr. Mike Hancock (in the Chair): I am not sure that your pronunciation was quite right, Mr. Hoyle. Mr. Brooks Newmark (Braintree) (Con): My hon. Friend is talking about engagement, but would it not be Mr. Evans: If it was not for that incident, there would best to talk to our friends in the Chinese embassy in this have been something else. The one thing that the junta country to try to get the Chinese Government to put does not want is to see Aung San Suu Kyi released and pressure on the Burmese regime, with which it has a for her to be free among her own people who want to close relationship? see her lead the country. Mr. Evans: I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s comments. Mr. Stephen Crabb (Preseli Pembrokeshire) (Con): There is no doubt that China is a superpower and has Does my hon. Friend agree that if the Burmese regime an influential role to play. I believe that it abdicates its was in any way serious about political engagement with responsibility when it fails to do so. I hope that in the 75WH Burma9 DECEMBER 2009 Burma 76WH

[Mr. Evans] in front of her husband. On 3 August, soldiers from Light Infantry Battalion 514 attacked and beheaded a coming months, we will see China play a more positive 29 year-old woman. role in trying to ensure that Aung San Suu Kyi and the In Chin State, the people face severe religious persecution, ol2other political prisoners are released in Burma. as documented by Christian Solidarity Worldwide in the report, “Carrying the Cross,” which was published Mr. Hoyle: Further to that point, here we have the two years ago. The Chin’s suffering is compounded by a evil regime in China propping up the regime in Burma. chronic food shortage that the regime has done nothing In fairness, we could ask the people of Tibet just how to address. The plight of the Kachin people should not good China is. I do not hold out much hope. It is also be ignored. The Kachin have a ceasefire with the regime, interesting that the largest democracy in the world, but still the abuses continue. The Rohingya are primarily India, also supports this evil regime. Does the hon. Muslim people and are denied citizenship, despite having Gentleman agree that we could do more through the lived in northern Arakan state for generations. Commonwealth to put pressure on India to stop supporting Burma? Bob Spink: The hon. Gentleman is at a particularly moving part of his speech. I have actually been in the Mr. Evans: I have made reference to China and will jungle and have met the Burmese, the Karen, the Kachin refer to India as well. As the hon. Gentleman rightly and the Chin ethnic groups. I have seen the evidence of says, it is the largest democracy in the world and a these atrocities—many more than he has outlined for leading member of our Commonwealth, of which we us—and I have met the Myanmarian. There are more are just one member. I hope that India uses its immense than 100,000 refugees in the Thai border refugee camps. influence in the region to bring about the release of I can testify to the accuracy of the odious statements Aung San Suu Kyi and the other 2,000 political prisoners that he is making. in Burma, which include 200 Buddhist monks. Some political prisoners have been sentenced to Mr. Evans: I am grateful for that contribution, and extraordinary terms, some to 65 years or more. Several for the documentation that Baroness Cox has sent me. prominent political prisoners need urgent medical treatment, She visited Mizoram and the people of Chinland from but have been denied it by the regime. In particular, 15 to 30 November 2009, and she has presented me with there is an immediate need for medical treatment for U a very moving report about the atrocities that are taking Gambira, who has contracted malaria in Kale prison in place in Burma. Sagaing division; Min Ko Naing, who is suffering from A new report, “Crimes in Burma”, has been published a severe eye condition and high blood pressure; and by the Harvard Law School and was commissioned by Zaw Htet Ko Ko, who is suffering from serious gastric five of the world’s leading jurists, including the former problems. What steps is the Minister taking to urge the deputy prosecutor of the International Criminal Tribunal authorities in Burma to ensure that all prisoners receive for the Former Yugoslavia, Sir Geoffrey Nice QC, and proper medical treatment? What steps is he taking to Justice Richard Goldstone. That report concludes that highlight the plight of political prisoners and to make “there is a prima facie case of international criminal law violations their release a priority? occurring that demands UN Security Council action to establish a Commission of Inquiry to investigate these grave breaches I have mentioned the plight of the ethnic nationalities. further”. Let me describe it in more detail. The State Peace and The jurists conclude that these violations Development Council is pursuing a campaign of ethnic cleansing. In eastern Burma, more than 3,300 villages “may amount to war crimes, as well as crimes against humanity”. have been destroyed and more than a million people The report draws almost exclusively on the UN’s own internally displaced since 1996. Rape as a weapon of statements. By the UN’s own admission—in resolutions war, forced labour and the use of human minesweepers of the General Assembly, the Human Rights Council are widespread and systematic. Burma has the highest and the International Labour Organisation and in reports number of forcibly conscripted child soldiers in the by four consecutive special rapporteurs—the human world. Those are crimes against humanity. rights violations in Burma are “systematic and widespread”. This year, the Burma army has intensified its attacks In 1998, the then special rapporteur stated that the in Karen state, driving thousands across the border into violations by the regime Thailand. Women and children are among the victims. “have been so numerous and consistent over the past years as to For example, on 26 August a Karen woman, Ma Khin suggest that they are not simply isolated or the acts of individual misbehaviour by middle and lower-ranking officers but are rather Kyi, was shot and severely wounded in the neck, jaw the result of policy at the highest level, entailing political and and mouth. Relief teams who provided assistance said legal responsibility.” that she was unlikely to survive because she was unable In 2006, his successor reached a similar conclusion. to eat or drink. On 27 December 2008, the body of a Last month, the UN General Assembly passed a resolution seven-year-old girl was found near her home after she calling on the regime in Burma had been raped and shot dead by a soldier from the Burma army. “to take urgent measures to put an end to violations of international human rights and humanitarian law, including the targeting The Karen are not the only ethnic group that has of persons belonging to particular ethnic groups, the targeting of faced such offensives. In August, more than 10,000 people civilians by military operations, and rape and other forms of were driven from their homes in Shan state. At least 100 sexual violence, and to end impunity.” were arrested and tortured, and at least three people The resolution also calls on the regime to end the were killed. One woman was shot while trying to retrieve “systematic forced displacement of large numbers of persons her possessions from a burning house and her body was within their country and other causes of refugee flows into thrown into a pit latrine. Another woman was gang-raped neighbouring countries.” 77WH Burma9 DECEMBER 2009 Burma 78WH

Will the Minister agree that the violations in Burma we heard how repressive the regime could be in stopping amount to violations of international law and may aid getting through to the very people who needed it qualify as war crimes and crimes against humanity? most. Now that cyclone has passed we must make Will he announce today that the United Kingdom will absolutely certain that the plight of Aung San Suu Kyi, work to establish a UN commission of inquiry to the political prisoners and, indeed, the ordinary people investigate these crimes? who live in fear in Burma is not forgotten. That is why In 2008, a new constitution was introduced in a sham this debate is particularly timely. The action we take referendum. The new constitution guarantees the military now and in the first few weeks of 2010 will at least give a quarter of the seats in parliament, disqualifies Aung the people of Burma some hope. Let us think about 2010. San Suu Kyi from the presidency, and excludes former political prisoners from contesting elected office. The Mr. Hoyle: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman would constitution has been described by the General Secretary agree that what we actually need in Burma is free, open, of the Karen National Union as a transparent elections to take place without any military interference. What conclusion can he make to ensure “death sentence for ethnic diversity”. that we can achieve that through the international As the regime plans to hold elections next year, will the community or through his own involvement with this Minister agree that, unless the constitution is revised House and in Europe? through an inclusive process, the elections will offer no hope of freedom or human rights and will simply Mr. Evans: Burma is not alone in this. Violations have enshrine military rule? taken place only recently—just this weekend—in Iran. The military regime in Burma is widely regarded as We know what happens when free and transparent among the worst in the world. The regime spends more elections take place: the people really do speak out. I than 40 per cent. of its budget on the military, and less pay tribute to the bravery of people, both in Iran and than $1 per person per year on health and education Burma, who put their lives on the line in speaking out combined. I welcome the leadership that the United and taking action to try to bring about regime change Kingdom—particularly the Prime Minister—has given within their own countries. One of the things that will on the issue of Burma over the past two years, and the have a huge impact is people within their own countries support that the Government have expressed for a being motivated for regime change. However, they also universal arms embargo. However, will the Minister tell need help and support. hon. Members what proactive steps the Government These debates are important to those people, because are taking to propose a universal arms embargo at the they let them know that they are not forgotten. For UN Security Council? those people who are in prison, for those who live in Burma is ranked by the Heritage Foundation as one fear of persecution and, indeed, for their families, it is of five most repressive economies in the world, by important that they know there are Members of Parliament Transparency International UK as the third most corrupt and people in the United Kingdom who support them country in the world, by Reporters Without Borders as in their fight. They are not alone. We will not forget one of the worst violators of press freedom, by the them, and we will act to give them the freedom that they Committee to Protect Journalists as the worst country are fighting for. Minister, can we please make sure that for internet bloggers, by the US Department of State as 2010 will deliver for the people of Burma? one of the worst violators of religious freedom, by Minority Rights Group International as one of the top Several hon. Members rose— five countries where ethnic minorities are under threat, by Médecins sans Frontières as one of the top Mr. Mike Hancock (in the Chair): It is my intention 10 humanitarian crises in the world, by the genocide to call Members for the winding-up speeches at 10.30. risk indices as one of the top two red alert countries for Can I get an indication of how many people would like genocide along with Sudan, and by Freedom House as to speak? I have got Stephen Crabb on the list, so he can “the worst of the worst”. provide the first contribution—he informed me that he would like to speak. May I ask who else wants to speak The UN has placed Burma on a monitoring list for in the debate, so we can try to fit everybody in? genocide. Considering that catalogue of horrors, it is [Interruption.] Dr. Pugh has indicated that he wants to time for the international community to take urgent speak. Okay, I call Stephen Crabb. action to address the political and humanitarian crisis in Burma. 9.49 am Mr. Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): I Mr. Stephen Crabb (Preseli Pembrokeshire) (Con): I congratulate my hon. Friend on the urgency of the congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Ribble debate. He is coming to the nub of the matter now in Valley (Mr. Evans) on securing this important and terms of India, China and our own Government. The timely debate, and thank him for doing so. He is a test of the international community at the UN will be staunch defender of human rights and a true friend of how quickly we can help to resolve the problems in the peoples of Burma, and I am please to have the Burma for its people. opportunity to speak for a few minutes in this debate. I will start by thanking the Burma Campaign, an Mr. Evans: I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever organisation that operates with few resources, yet that that the hon. Gentleman is right. I am coming to my punches far above its weight in ensuring that the issue conclusion. The important thing for this debate is that does not move far from our agenda in this place. It does we keep the matter in people’s minds. We last had a a sterling job in briefing MPs, peers and Ministers and debate on the subject at the time of the cyclone, when ensuring that we return to the issue time and again, 79WH Burma9 DECEMBER 2009 Burma 80WH

[Mr. Stephen Crabb] Would the Minister give a view on how best the proposal for a commission of inquiry could be taken forward because it is too important to lose sight of. I also pay and, indeed, whether he supports such a proposal? If he tribute to the work of people such as Ben Rogers at does not support such a commission, what alternative Christian Solidarity Worldwide, which my hon. Friend course of action are the Government pursuing at the has already mentioned, and Baroness Cox at the UN to bring pressure to bear on the generals over their Humanitarian Aid Relief Trust. Together, those individuals appalling record of human rights abuses. and their organisations have been doing some extremely Supporters of democracy are also pushing for a important work on Burma, specifically in relation to universal arms embargo on Burma, and stressing the some of the ethnic groups, such as the Karen, the need to build a global consensus to ensure that a true, Karenni and the Shan people of eastern Burma and the universal arms embargo is imposed, which is now more Chin people of western Burma, on the border with necessary than ever. On 12 October 2008, the President India, who are currently suffering in appalling conditions. of Timor-Leste, Dr. Jose Ramos Horta, added his voice I also pay tribute to the Minister and the Government to calls for a universal arms embargo on the Burma for their work and the steps they have taken in recent regime, stating that years to respond to the growing crisis in Burma. The “the events of the past two years in Burma have shocked the Minister and I have shared platforms on the issue world…The deterioration in the political and humanitarian situation before, so I know from talking with him that he has a calls for a clear response by the international community…There personal commitment to this, and I look forward to his can be no justification for selling arms to a regime which…uses remarks. those arms simply to suppress its own people”. I make no apologies if I repeat some of the points A large number of countries have already signed up and and evidence that my hon. Friend gave in his contribution. support a global arms embargo, including the UK and It is absolutely right and vital that we keep coming back many European countries. As far as I can see—the to the issue, both for the people of Burma, who are Minister can correct me if I am wrong—the British currently suffering in appalling conditions, and because Government and the EU have stated that they support it is a test for us and for the international community on a global arms embargo but have taken few practical how well we deal with the worst of the worst. The steps to secure it. Perhaps the Minister can set me situation in Burma is a litmus test to show how serious straight on that. the international community is in giving real meaning I will move on to the detail of the recent reports by to the terms of the universal declaration of human Baroness Cox, to which my hon. Friend the Member for rights, the anniversary of which we will celebrate tomorrow Ribble Valley referred. Baroness Cox has just returned on international human rights day. Are we serious from a visit to Chin state and earlier this year visited about seeing basic civil freedoms upheld for all peoples eastern Burma and produced two excellent reports, everywhere throughout the world, or do we just pay lip which I strongly encourage the Minister and his colleagues service to those things? at the Department for International Development to Let us be clear: with the military junta in Burma, as read in detail. Chin state is experiencing a deteriorating my hon. Friend said, we are dealing with the worst of humanitarian situation and a famine caused by the the worst gangster regimes to be found anywhere in the flowering of bamboo and an infestation of rats, which world. The regime continues to have one of the worst has lead to serious food shortages and increased rates of records for imprisoning political opponents and for morbidity and mortality. Children are not going to forcibly recruiting child soldiers. In fact, it has the school, because they need to search for food or are too largest number of child soldiers of any army in the weak, and reports are coming through of entirely deserted world. It is waging a brutal war on its ethnic minorities. villages and large migration flows of people into India, It is a regime that turned the humanitarian crisis that Malaysia, China and Thailand. At the same time, severe followed Cyclone Nargis into a near-genocidal catastrophe. and grave human rights abuses continue to be perpetrated It is a regime that has, time and again, laughed in the by Burmese military troops, who are dispersed across face of the international community and run rings Chin state. There are reports of forced labour, torture, around the whole succession of toothless UN envoys rape and the systematic refusal by the regime to provide and special representatives. anything like adequate health care. The result is widespread suffering in Chin state. I will provide more detail by discussing the proposed In 2008, DFID committed initial funding of £600,000, UN commission of inquiry on the crimes of the Burmese specifically to address the food crisis in Chin state. That regime. Following the failure to secure a UN Security sum was increased to £800,000 in March 2009, which Council resolution two years ago, it is vital that that we welcome. However, there is concern that in some issue is a top priority for the UN. I look forward to what areas, international funds for emergency food relief the Minister has to say on the proposal for a commission channelled through the UN Development Programme of inquiry, which is being pushed for in this country by allegedly are being provided not as aid, but as loans that the Burma Campaign and across the world by the are repayable at rates of up to 200 per cent. If the worldwide Burma democracy movement. Minister does not have the information to hand to In October, in a statement to the 64th session of the respond to that point, would he write to me after the UN General Assembly Third Committee, the UN special debate to assure me that more assistance will be provided rapporteur on Burma described the human rights situation to Chin state, and will he investigate the claims that in in that country as “alarming”. He noted that some areas, the UNDP is providing money in the form “there is a pattern of widespread and systematic violations” of loans charged at 200 per cent? and that In eastern Burma, the absurdly named State Peace “the prevailing impunity allows for the continuation of these and Development Council—they are brutal military violations.” thugs—continues to inflict gross human rights abuses 81WH Burma9 DECEMBER 2009 Burma 82WH on the Karen, the Karenni and the Shan peoples. In the Government done to deserve the announcement that so-called brown territories, human mine sweepers and the US Government are now willing to engage in dialogue forced labour are used. In many parts of the black with them? The risk surely is that their status as a areas, where there is a sustained military offensive by reprehensible pariah is slightly reduced by this shift on the Burmese regime, there is a shoot-to-kill policy and the part of the Obama Administration, and unless there widespread reports of the torture and rape of civilians. is real toughness on the part of the international community, There has been a large increase this year in the number particularly the US Government, in upholding sanctions of internally displaced people as a result of the military and being absolutely firm on the conditions under conflict. I understand that there are approximately which they will engage with the Burmese Government, 30,000 IDPs among the Karen people alone, hiding in the Burmese Government will achieve an important the jungle in appalling conditions. Would the Minister gain. update us on what steps he and his colleagues are taking to ensure that humanitarian assistance reaches those Mr. Hoyle: The problem is that two members of the oppressed ethnic groups? BRIC countries are the biggest countries that prop Is the Minister aware of the very difficult debates Burma up; that is where our difficulty is. Human rights among the ethnic groups of Burma on how to respond in China are not different from human rights in Burma. to the forthcoming national elections? Should they What can we do about India and China? That is the big participate or boycott them? They are loth to confer issue. legitimacy on those elections by participating, but they are worried that by not voting they might lose the Mr. Crabb: The hon. Gentleman is exactly right. opportunity to provide evidence of vote rigging in China and India, particularly China, are hugely influential future and that doing so will deny them any sliver of in discussions about the future of Burma. We must also representation, however minimal, once those elections consider the role of the Association of Southeast Asian have taken place. Does the Minister agree that whatever Nations, which has not been mentioned so far in this decision those ethnic groups reach on whether to participate debate. I shall come on to it in a second, but first would in the elections, the international community must not like to conclude my comments on US policy. endorse the regime’s sham elections and must lend no My fear is that the US has changed tack slightly credibility whatever to the process? To do otherwise because of other regional issues across Asia, North would be a huge disservice to the democracy movement Korea and China, and that Burma risks becoming part in Burma and a massive setback for its ethnic peoples. of a subset of a wider set of geopolitical issues and therefore does not receive the specific and dedicated Bob Spink: The hon. Gentleman mentioned the Karen, attention that it deserves. We need to hold on to it as a 30,000 of whom were displaced in the jungle. I have met human rights and humanitarian issue. It is not part of a some of those groups and seen the children walking subset of a wider range of geopolitical questions. I have three miles to carry water in old petrol cans. I met the said before in the House that we need a much more elders and saw the conditions in which they lived, with intelligent approach to ASEAN. Two years ago, through no health service, no family planning for the young girls the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, I was and no education. That really needs to be tackled by the able to visit three ASEAN countries shortly after the international community. ASEAN summit in which discussion of Burma featured heavily. It is clear that politicians and Governments in Mr. Crabb: The hon. Gentleman is entirely right. The Asia do not have quite the same view of human and convergence of difficult humanitarian conditions with civil rights as we do, and that they do not see Burma in gross human rights abuses is creating a dire set of the same way that we do. It is important that while we circumstances for the oppressed ethnic groups. engage with them and try to understand their position, they understand just how reprehensible the Burmese Moving on to the subject of political engagement, in Government are in our view. If they want the EU to September, the US Administration announced the outcome take ASEAN more seriously as a representative organisation of its review of US policy towards Burma, something for Asian economies, they need to understand that there which many of us were watching closely. A general are certain things that they need to fix within their club, welcome, which I support, has been given to the noises Burma being one of them. I look forward to what the being made by the new US Administration, but I have Minister and other speakers have to say. some questions which I would like to put to the Minister. I have read in detail the transcript of the report by Kurt Mr. Mike Hancock (in the Chair): Thank you very Campbell, an official from the US State Department, much for a thoughtful contribution, Mr. Crabb. on why there has been a slight change of tack on the part of the Obama Administration in respect of Burma. What does the Minister think that it has shifted? Has 10.4 am there been any substantive shift at all on the part of the Dr. John Pugh (Southport) (LD): I congratulate the Burmese regime which has led the US Government to hon. Member for Ribble Valley (Mr. Evans) on securing announce that they are willing to engage in some form this important debate. I had not intended to speak at of political dialogue? What gesture or shift has there any length this morning. This is more a question of a been by the Burmese Government? As far as I can tell, few observations off the back of my chairing the all-party there has been none. Burma group last week. The fact that I was doing it and For example, there has been no release of political not someone more exalted—for example, people such prisoners or move in the direction of improving the as the Speaker are very much involved in the all-party conditions in which Aung San Suu Kyi is held, let alone group—shows that there was a somewhat thin attendance. any talk of her being released. So what have the Burmese That was slightly disappointing. 83WH Burma9 DECEMBER 2009 Burma 84WH

[Dr. John Pugh] The third reason why the strategy might do some good—I would take some persuasion about this, and Baroness Cox, the hon. Member for Cardiff, North people may have more than one view about it—is that (Julie Morgan) and I were there. In addition, there was perpetrators, even people who are in a secure position in a contingent of Karen people who had come to inform their country, backed by their own military and currently us about their plight in a touching way. There were in charge, do not welcome international condemnation. people there who, in the course of giving testimony, They do not like the idea simply because, in the back of broke down in tears as they described not general events their mind, they know that there is insecurity attached but events that had happened specifically to their family. to all power and that, at some point, whether in the It was a difficult time for MPs, but I am glad to say that Third Reich or other regimes, the chickens can come today there is wider representation, and I am sure that home to roost. all MPs, whether able to be here or not, fully recognise So there are four practical things that we can do for the awful plight of the Burmese. the people of Burma, and there is a range of people for I would like to relate to the Minister how the people whom we need to do things. The Shan and Karen who came to see us the other day have an almost people have been mentioned, as well as pro-democracy touching, slightly naïve faith in what we can do for people in the cities, the monks and so on. Those things them. They treasure democracy, they are exiles in this are fairly obvious and the Government can do all of country, and they are aware of the huge and manifest them. They can continue to support sanctions, although difference between their plight in Burma and their I am not optimistic about that as a strategy to change situation in the UK. We might grumble about our the nature of events, because of the influence of China country from time to time, but they certainly do not. and so on. We can do our utmost—we hon. Members are doing so today, I guess—to publicise the issue to try Their purpose, and the purpose of the meeting, was to get a bit of media attention for what is surely an twofold. One was to verify the charges against the intolerable situation. But as the campaigners themselves Burmese Government through eloquent testimony. I mentioned, the press are fickle. The strange thing about pay tribute to Baroness Cox who, from her own experience suffering is that if it goes on and on and is always there and reports that she has prepared, was able to amplify it does not get reported, although it is all the worse for and add to that. The Burmese people listed on an being so perpetual. individual and collective basis things that hon. Members Thirdly, we can put pressure on India through the have already spoken about such as the use of forced Commonwealth, as the hon. Member for Chorley labour, the displacement of people, the use of rape as a (Mr. Hoyle) mentioned in his intervention. India genuinely policy instrument, the malnutrition and all the other has a part to play here and we should not exonerate it awful effects that follow consequently. That has been from its responsibilities. India has its own human rights done umpteen times in this place, in the media and issues, as does China, but it surely cannot play its throughout the world. current role and be seen as totally supportive of human The other object of the meeting was to show a way rights. India must do more to assist the people of forward, and I have to say that at first I was slightly Burma, if only because it gets the outfall of that problem— sceptical about it. The main burden of the meeting was the refugees coming across its border and into parts of to put across the idea that a United Nations inquiry that country that are deprived and cannot stand extra stimulated by activities at Harvard Law School could burdens imposed on them. do some positive good and be a small step forward. One Fourthly, we must press for the United Nations inquiry, may think that that is a somewhat doomed strategy on which we want an answer from the Minister today. I because one knows that, in the world of realpolitik, the was sceptical about that inquiry and did not think that Chinese and Indian Governments and many other interests it would necessarily do any good, and I can see all the in south Asia have little interest in taking the Burmese problems that it could incur with other members of the issue head on. In fact, I voiced some of that scepticism UN, but pushing in that direction is a step forward. while chairing the meeting, because I thought that Even if I did not think that, the people I spoke to a people needed to recognise what could and could not be week ago thought so, and that is one good reason for done. However, they impressed on me the idea that the doing it. activity by itself, if done on an official basis through the I hope that our Government will take all those four UN, would not be futile, because evidence against previous steps. serial abusers of human rights such as Saddam Hussein and Milosevic has often been collected prior to their apprehension, downfall and conviction. That kind of 10.11 am evidence and inquiry has a horrible habit of coming back to haunt the culprits—the people who currently Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): Mr. Hancock, are, or feel that they are, safe and secure. That is one it is a pleasure to speak in this debate under your positive reason for getting on with an inquiry. chairmanship. I congratulate the hon. Member for Ribble Valley (Mr. Evans) on securing this debate, which is A second positive reason is that the people who suffer timely, as he said. It has been an interesting debate, as genuinely want official international recognition of their debates often are in Westminster Hall. In particular, suffering and the abuse of power and human rights. The real value has been added by those hon. Members who victims genuinely want that, and certainly the people have brought to bear their personal experience of talking who I saw last week wanted that, even if it did nothing face to face to the individuals who have been living with other than to declare that recognition and announce it the consequences of this horrible regime. I am delighted to the world, thereby ensuring that nobody could be in to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Southport any doubt about it. (Dr. Pugh). 85WH Burma9 DECEMBER 2009 Burma 86WH

I would like to touch on the elections, the aftermath relief donations from abroad for survivors of the cyclone, of Cyclone Nargis and the human rights situation, because more than 18 months after that devastation the many aspects of which have been explored by hon. authorities have not dealt with it. The aid is still needed, Members in some detail. I shall focus on what the yet the regime continues to make arrests and lock response might be and what we and the rest of the people up for doing no more than trying to help those international community might be able to do. whose lives have been devastated by the natural disaster. The most high-profile symbol of the corruption and anti-democratic and repressive nature of the regime in Mr. Evans: At the time of the cyclone, when the Burma is the house arrest of Aung San Suu Kyi. We United States was sending aid, the regime preferred to should bear in mind that her detention has now lasted see its people die while it repackaged some of that aid so 14 years—it is sometimes difficult to imagine such a that the people receiving it did not know that it came huge amount of time—yet still she retains the faith, from the US. Does not that say everything that we need strength and ability to keep going. During that time to know about the regime? It would rather see its people there have been little false glimmers of hope. Burma’s die than let them see where the aid has come from. Foreign Ministry has told the Associated Press that the junta plans to release Dr. Suu Kyi from house arrest to Jo Swinson: The hon. Gentleman makes a powerful allow her to organise her party before the elections in intervention, with which I think all hon. Members March 2010. But before we get too hopeful about that, would agree. It is almost inconceivable that a regime we should remember that the regime has dashed such could be so heartless and so unbothered by its people’s hopes in the past. For example, in 2004, the then Burmese suffering. Burma still needs extra funding for new houses, Foreign Minister Win Aung promised the UN envoy cyclone shelters, livelihood programmes, water and that she would be released, but in May 2007 her term of sanitation—the basic tools of life—and education and house arrest was extended for another year. It would be health services. We are talking about hundreds of thousands a fabulous outcome if her release were to be secured, of people. Yet the funding has not properly flowed. but that is still in doubt. Even if she were released Only £75 million has been committed to the Association before the elections, there is still a huge challenge to face of Southeast Asian Nations tripartite core group’s post- and a long way to go before Burma is anything approaching cyclone recovery project, which is expected to cost a democracy, because, as has been mentioned, the £415 million. I congratulate the Government on the constitution would prevent her from standing for election Department for International Development funding for even if released. the aid programme, which rose from £12.5 million last In preparing for such debates, I always find new year to £25 million this year, and for the plans to information: in this case, horrific new information. As increase it further to £28 million in 2010-11. In the the hon. Member for Ribble Valley mentioned, a quarter context of difficult economic circumstances, that shows of the 440 seats in the Burmese Assembly are automatically a commitment from this Government, but it is not given to the military. When I read that I could not enough on its own, which is why I am also pleased that believe the total brazenness of the regime’s changing they are encouraging other donors to increase their aid the constitution to reserve a quarter of the seats for the contributions. military junta. In this circumstance, people are left Cyclone Nargis did not get the same coverage around thinking, what chance is there for democracy unless the world as other disasters, such as the tsunami. Although there is wholesale change of the constitution? the cyclone was prominent in our news media, it was The horror runs much deeper even than the house not quite at the same level as the tsunami, because—this arrest of Aung San Suu Kyi and the difficulties with the is a big aspect—journalists with cameras were not able constitution, because the number of political prisoners to report freely in the country, so there was not the same has more than doubled since the beginning of 2007, number of pictures to accompany the story. The broadcast according to Human Rights Watch. More than 2,100 people and print media are driven by pictures so Burma suffered are detained in 43 prisons and over 50 labour camps, doubly, because the public donations were not as high where they are forced into hard labour projects. Anybody as they might have been had the natural disaster happened who speaks out against military rule is routinely locked in a country where media coverage could have been up. There is no such thing as a free press. That shows us greater. The Government aid programmes are even that, even if the junta follows through this time and more important because of that. releases Dr. Suu Kyi, that is little more than a token The hon. Gentleman’s speech was particularly powerful gesture to try to make the elections seem credible: it is when he painted a grim picture of the repression of not a commitment to democratisation. Having said minorities, especially the use of rape as a weapon of that, we must still push for the junta to do that. war. The internal conflict between the military rulers I now turn to the aftermath of the cyclone that hit in and the minority ethnic groups in Burma has continued 2008. We need to remember the destruction that that for the past 60 years, and the sad truth is that it is caused: 140,000 people dead or missing, which is a huge increasingly common in such conflicts that a frequent natural disaster on any scale. But, of course, that natural mode of attack is a systematic policy for soldiers to rape disaster was compounded by the authorities’ refusal women and children. properly to allow aid agencies to get in and do their The Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination work. I remember the debates in the House at that time against Women submitted a report on Burma to the and the indignation around the world about what happened. UN General Assembly in November 2008 in which it However, we have not heard the story of what has expressed its happened since. “deep concern at the high prevalence of sexual and other forms of Amnesty International has reported that, as recently violence, including rape, perpetrated by members of the armed as October this year, the Burmese authorities arrested at forces against rural ethnic women, including Shan, Mon, Karen, least 10 journalists and political activists for accepting Palaung and Chin women.” 87WH Burma9 DECEMBER 2009 Burma 88WH

[Jo Swinson] Bob Spink: As the hon. Lady is mentioning other countries, will she mention the two roles that Thailand It notes that the perpetrators have virtual impunity. is playing? One is a positive role in allowing refugee Only a few cases have ever been prosecuted, and it camps on the border, which is extremely good of it. It is reports intimidation of those who are brave enough to trying to care for those people as best it can. On the come forward even to complain. There is obvious violation other hand, it is trading with and propping up politically of UN Security Council resolution 1820 on sexual the odious regime in Burma. It is involved in some of violence in armed conflict. I am pleased that this year the large and illegal infrastructure projects on ethnic the UK co-sponsored Security Council resolution 1888, people’s land in Burma. There is tension in Thailand, which led the council to appoint a special representative and we must maintain pressure on the Thai Government. to tackle sexual violence in armed conflict. That is important in Burma and, sadly, in other countries. Jo Swinson: The hon. Gentleman makes his point The UK has a strong record on tackling violence well, and although China and India are key players, we against women, but I understand from a parliamentary should not forget that other countries also play a role. answer that the Government are not putting forward a The hon. Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire (Mr. Crabb) UK candidate for the new post and I would be interested asked whether we are serious about getting to grips with to hear, today or later in writing, why, and who they will human rights issues, and the question is appropriate. support. It is obviously vital that the special representative Westminster Hall debates on foreign affairs are often can put the matter at the heart of the international depressing. By their nature, they tend to be about the community, and ensure that it is, rightly, high on the world’s problems rather than shining examples of good agenda. practice and success. Debates during the past few weeks Dr. Pugh: On rape as a matter of policy, I have been have been on Iran, human rights in China, the death told by people from the Karen community that the penalty, and Burma, so it is right to ask the question. sinister ideological rationalisation is that the military Human rights abuses are so severe and, sadly, so prevalent rulers regard the tribes as troublesome and feel that by throughout the world, that it is important to highlight diluting the gene pool through rape and the creation of them, and to ask whether we are doing everything we mixed-breed children they are doing their bit to progress can. Having said that, we can be proud of some aspects ethnic cleansing. That is a particularly revolting of our record, and I give credit where it is due to the rationalisation. Government, but we should never stop asking the question. Jo Swinson: I agree. It is hard even to listen to such a The Government have a good record, and sanctions rationalisation, and to hear that the individuals involved have been an important part of that. If things change in think that they are, as my hon. Friend puts it, doing the country, we would need to review our strategy, their bit. particularly if the change in the US’s strategy bears fruit. As many hon. Members have outlined, the human Going through the catalogue of horrors—that phrase rights situation in Burma is dire, and it is vital that the was rightly used earlier—brings us to what our response Government use every tool at their disposal to put should be. Within the international community there pressure on the Burmese regime to bring the awful seems to have been some movement recently. Obviously, abuses to an end. the Government have targeted sanctions against the regime at EU and UN levels, and my party has supported that. I echo the calls for a universal arms embargo, 10.27 am because there can be no justification for selling arms to such a regime. Mr. Keith Simpson (Mid-Norfolk) (Con): It is a pleasure, Mr. Hancock, to serve under your chairmanship. I Barack Obama has decided to try to engage with the congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Ribble military junta in a break from the Bush policy of Valley (Mr. Evans) on raising this issue. He and other isolation, but I do not know whether a specific event, hon. Members who have spoken from both sides of the other than the change of presidency, prompted that Chamber have a track record of raising the matter. change in strategy. Aung San Suu Kyi has expressed Many of us feel the presence of the Speaker hovering support for sanctions, but more recently has offered to over us. In a previous incarnation, when he was a co-operate in getting them lifted. Dr. Suu Kyi’s conditions troublesome and noisy Back Bencher, he had a distinguished for agreeing to co-operate are not yet clear, but the track record of raising this issue and speaking out both commitment will obviously not be open-ended. It would in Parliament and outside. be helpful if the Minister enlightened the debate on the conditions that Dr. Suu Kyi has specified, and whether The last Westminster Hall debate on Burma was in the Government would agree with her if such progress December 2007, but the matter has been raised during were made, and review their approach to the regime. other Westminster Hall debates—for example, the debates Obviously, if she, as an individual in the country, can on China and the west in October, on India in May, and achieve some progress, that might be an alternative on human rights in December 2008. On 9 June there strategy. I echo calls from hon. Members to use every was an Adjournment debate on the detention of Aung diplomatic lever at our disposal to persuade India and San Suu Kyi. Burma is not just a stand-alone issue; it China in particular, who have a strong influence in has a thread in other areas. It is important to understand Burma, to put pressure on the regime. that the context is not just the suffering of the Burmese My hon. Friend the Member for Southport made a people, but the wider issue of human rights. powerful case for the UN inquiry, and perhaps it is even As the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire more powerful as it comes from someone who was (Jo Swinson) said, anyone who discusses foreign affairs previously a sceptic. I hope that the Government will and UK policy may become depressed that so many support those calls. countries are carrying out the most horrendous crimes 89WH Burma9 DECEMBER 2009 Burma 90WH against their own ethnic people or their ethnic minorities. does my hon. Friend have for the work that Mr. Gambari That applies on a much smaller scale in Zimbabwe, will do in Darfur, given that he was such a manifest flop North Korea, Iran, Sudan, Tibet of course, and a raft during his work in Burma? of others. The issue that we must address as parliamentarians and in terms of the Government is Mr. Simpson: I do not know whether it is an insult or what we can realistically do to bring pressure to bear on a compliment to hear that I am being measured. Perhaps regimes that do not respond easily to outside pressure I am doing my Sir Humphrey act. If I were a Foreign to modify or, hopefully, to stop their behaviour. Office mandarin, which I am not—although I probably I am conscious of one other element as far as Burma look like one from the 1950s—I would say that is concerned. We governed Burma for a period of 80 or Mr. Gambari is going to be “challenged” in Darfur. 90 years, so it might be that we have a moral debt. Many There is no doubt about that. I agree with my hon. of us have not forgotten that during the second world Friend: it is an amazing appointment given Mr. Gambari’s war, many Burmese people suffered horrendously under demonstrable failure to engage with the Burmese regime. occupation. Many of those ethnic groups who are the That does not mean that another UN envoy would have most persecuted, aided the Commonwealth armies, hid no trouble in engaging with that regime, but most British and Commonwealth troops who had been left independent observers regard Mr. Gambari’s work there behind, and faced the most horrendous consequences as a failure. I hope that whoever is appointed as his for what they did. There is an additional moral imperative. successor will be more robust in dealing with the regime. What further discussions have representatives of the Let me touch briefly on a number of issues, some of UK Government had with Aung San Suu Kyi following which have already been raised by colleagues. First, is her meeting with the British Ambassador, Andrew Heyn, the question of the US policy review. The Americans on 9 October 2009? What opportunities are there for have carried out a major review on how to engage with engagement between the UK Government and Burma, which I suggest is part of a wider Obama representatives from Aung San Suu Kyi’s party, the strategy of trying to engage with a whole raft of regimes, National League of Democracy, in advance of the of which Iran is another example. However, that does 2010 elections? not mean that all other elements should not be used as well. The Obama Government have concluded—quite A number of colleagues touched on the 2010 elections, rightly—that the idea that one should not engage directly and it has already been pointed out that the new constitution or indirectly with a regime is a false position in which to guarantees the military one quarter of the seats in both be. It does not use an important weapon that a Government the upper and lower houses of the new national Parliament. have at their disposal—that of diplomacy. The UK Government have strongly criticised the planned elections. Earlier this year in answer to a written question, The Assistant Secretary for East Asian and Pacific a Minister stated: Affairs, Kurt Campbell, told a Senate hearing: “The military regime in Burma is determined to maintain its “Lifting or easing sanctions at the outset of a dialogue without hold on power regardless of the cost and suffering of its people. meaningful progress on our concerns would be a mistake…any The junta’s ‘Roadmap to disciplined democracy’,” easing of sanctions now would send the wrong signal”. —that has a wonderful sound of 1984 to it— The Americans are not prepared to ease sanctions “including a new constitution and elections planned for 2010, is without seeing some degree of progress, but as a number designed to entrench military rule behind a facade of civilian of colleagues have asked: how do we define that progress? government.”—[Official Report, 12 January 2009; Vol. 486, c. 356W.] What type of US engagement will be pursued, and how It is clear that the 2010 elections planned by the military will the US ensure that it is co-ordinated with the rest of junta do not represent genuine progress towards democracy. the international community? Perhaps the Minister can Will the Minister outline the conditions that the UK clarify that, because the international approach is crucial. Government think are necessary for a credible election That brings me to the role of the United Nations. process? How can we measure those in the forthcoming Last week, the UN announced that the UN special months? envoy to Burma, Ibrahim Gambari, will become head A number of colleagues have mentioned EU sanctions. of the UN-African Union peacekeeping force in Darfur. Will the Minister assure us that existing EU sanctions He will assume that position on 1 January next year, will not be relaxed until clear progress is made by the and his replacement is currently being sought. I do not Burmese regime, including an end to human rights know whether the Minister can give us information on abuses and the oppression of minorities? What mechanisms any name that might be in the frame. are in place to ensure that existing UK sanctions on the import of timber and gems from Burma are enforced, The military junta failed on a number of occasions to and not violated as is currently the case? That is only a give Mr. Gambari a visa. He managed to meet Aung small part of the sanctions, but it is important and San Suu Kyi during one visit to the country, but interestingly, involves members of the regime personally. she refused to meet him on a later occasion. There has been considerable criticism of Mr. Gambari on the The Association of Southeast Asian Nations has grounds that he did not have a sufficiently robust attitude been mentioned. There is no doubt that the ability of towards the Burmese region. Over the past 40 years, the ASEAN powers to put pressure on Burma is there have been 40 visits to Burma by UN envoys. considerable, at least in theory. Many of us have been disappointed over the past few years that some ASEAN countries have not been more robust towards Burma. Mr. Crabb: My hon. Friend is being very measured Burma’s main outlet to the world is through ASEAN and diplomatic in his description of Mr. Gambari’s meetings and conferences. I hope that the British effectiveness. I was not aware that Mr. Gambari had Government, both bilaterally and in direct relations been appointed to a role in Darfur. How much optimism with ASEAN, will bring more pressure to bear on 91WH Burma9 DECEMBER 2009 Burma 92WH

[Mr. Keith Simpson] Finally, there is the threat of force. One of the great tragedies of international relations in the past decade ASEAN countries, and stand up for what many of relates to the fact that there was a narrow window of those countries believe about democratic accountability, opportunity after 9/11 when the world actively supported free elections and so on. and sympathised with the United States of America. The American threat of force and, indeed, its intervention I will conclude with a number of final points. First, against the Taliban regime in Afghanistan caused many we are all overwhelmed by the tales of suffering that we regimes suddenly to change their attitude and policies. hear, not only via the media but through personal The North Koreans shifted—they were absolutely meetings with people who have been in Burma, and terrified—and Colonel Gaddafi, who, crab-like, was from Burmese minorities. The Burmese people are not already moving in that direction, moved very quickly alone in their suffering as there are many other regimes, indeed. Sadly, that has gone, but at least the threat of but they are a quiet, dignified people, and it is important force should never be removed from the diplomatic that we speak up on their behalf through Parliament. It table. If the threat of force is removed, there is no is depressing that over the past four years in which I requirement on these odious regimes to make any change have participated in such debates, we have seen only a at all. small amount of progress. However, we can at least collectively express our outrage through Parliament. I I hope that the Minister will accept not my remarks hope that in a positive, rather than negative way, we can but the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for put pressure on the British Government so that the Ribble Valley, who initiated the debate, and of other Foreign Office can say to countries, “Pressure is being hon. Members in the way in which they were made, brought to bear on us by the democratic representatives which I hope he will regard as both constructive and of the British people”. supportive. We need a dual track of attempts at dialogue with the Burmese Government, but also to put pressure on them 10.42 am and their neighbours, crucially, as colleagues have The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth mentioned, the two big states. The first of those states is Office (Mr. Ivan Lewis): I begin by congratulating the India, which is a member of the British Commonwealth. hon. Member for Ribble Valley (Mr. Evans) on securing I take the point made by the hon. Member for Chorley this important Adjournment debate and on the passionate (Mr. Hoyle), who is no longer in the Chamber, about and authentic way in which he presented our shared using the good offices of the Commonwealth. The concerns on the human rights abuses that continue to second state is China, which I know is less easy. The scar Burma and the issues of greatest concern to the Chinese do not wish to discuss their relations with a international community. The debate has displayed a whole raft of regimes throughout the world, about unity of purpose, shared concern and a determination which it is to their economic benefit to keep quiet to find ways to adopt practical measures that will regarding demonstrable crimes against humanity and, influence the regime and move the situation forward. in some cases, war crimes. Nevertheless, the British Government have a duty to be quite robust with the I also pay tribute to the hon. Member for Preseli Chinese Government on the matter. My right hon. Pembrokeshire (Mr. Crabb) for his long-standing work Friend the Member for Richmond, Yorks (Mr. Hague), on raising the profile and the issue of Burma in the the shadow Foreign Secretary, raises these points whenever House and for his work to promote the need to take we meet senior members of the Chinese Government. more decisive action. I join the hon. Member for Mid- Norfolk (Mr. Simpson) in paying tribute to the work, The pressure exerted through the United Nations is over a very long time, of Mr. Speaker in championing also crucial. The hon. Member for Southport (Dr. Pugh) this issue and ensuring that Britain regards it as a made a very important observation, recognising that he priority. had not originally been persuaded of this. Many of I am sure that hon. Members would acknowledge on these regimes may brush aside the threat of a war a cross-party basis that this matter concerns my right crimes inquiry, but I think it gnaws at their vitals. It hon. Friend the Prime Minister very deeply. He has makes them incredibly careful about where they travel given the issue a considerable amount of his personal to and they are always fearful that one day or other, attention and leadership. He has rightly described Aung their regime might fall. San Suu Kyi as one of the most courageous individuals Regime change does not usually happen quickly. I of our lifetime—of our generation—as a result of the just scribbled down some notes on this, à la the old staff sacrifices and suffering that she has had to tolerate college lecturer in me. Regime change can come about because she has stayed true to her people and her internally; ultimately, there can be a revolution or coup principles. She has suffered a lot of personal pain and d’état. It can come about externally, by two methods. tragedy as a consequence. One is what happened to the old white Rhodesian We share the deep concern of hon. Members on both regime when the South African Government literally sides of the House for the Burmese people—the concern turned the power off and said, “That’s it, gentlemen. It’s about the multiple humanitarian crises, appalling human the endgame. We’re not prepared to support you any rights abuses and the fact that there has been precious more.” There is a chance that that could still happen, little progress towards genuine democracy. We are ironically, in Zimbabwe, but the current South African committed to doing all we can, in a number of ways, to Government do not want to do it. The Chinese could help the people of Burma to a better future, as hon. probably bring about regime change in North Korea by Members suggested. Tough EU sanctions targeted at switching the power off, but for understandable reasons, the regime leadership underline our determination to they do not want to do so. see real political reform. Robust dialogue makes our 93WH Burma9 DECEMBER 2009 Burma 94WH concerns clear, but also emphasises our readiness to when Aung San Suu Kyi was sentenced in August to a respond to progress. With regard to humanitarian aid, further 18 months under house arrest. We continue to the UK, as hon. Members said, is the largest donor this support the efforts of the UN Secretary-General and year, alongside Japan, which genuinely makes a difference his good offices mission. The UN has a central role to in alleviating the suffering of Burma’s poor. play. On the points made by the hon. Members for Preseli The hon. Members for Preseli Pembrokeshire, for Pembrokeshire and for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson), East Dunbartonshire and for Mid-Norfolk asked about there is concern that people are being charged for some US dialogue. Previously, the Americans’ position was of the aid; that is what we are told. The UNDP is one of isolation and sanctions, but they have adopted investigating those allegations as a matter of urgency, one of engagement and sanctions following their review. and we will report to the House when we receive clarification It must be made clear, however, that there is absolutely of exactly what is happening on the ground. Our key no sign that the US, the EU or the international community objectives remain the release of all political prisoners, has any intention of reducing economic sanctions against including Aung San Suu Kyi—we should remember the regime, because we have seen no significant shift that there are more than 2,000 political prisoners—and whatever from it so far. This is not an either/or scenario. the start of a genuine process of political dialogue It is perfectly reasonable, as the hon. Member for Mid- involving all opposition and ethnic groups. The elections Norfolk said, to have a strategy of engagement and planned for 2010—hon. Members asked where we stood sanctions. If we looked at the strategy adopted until the on this—will have no international legitimacy unless Americans undertook their review, we would see that those and other steps are taken as a matter of urgency. they were right to decide that it was time to move from That point was made by my hon. Friend the Member isolation and sanctions to engagement and sanctions. for Chorley (Mr. Hoyle). Hon. Members have asked about the ASEAN countries, The hon. Member for Mid-Norfolk asked, reasonably, and I have raised these issues with ASEAN ambassadors what credible steps would allow us to take a more on a couple of occasions—indeed, we constantly raise sympathetic view of the elections next year. First, the them. The ASEAN countries are an emerging institution, very constitution on which the elections are based would and the UK should engage with its power brokers and have to be changed, because it inherently means an economies in a more positive and meaningful way. It is unfair process and an unfair outcome. Inevitably, the worth noting, however, that ASEAN recently set up a release not only of Aung San Suu Kyi but all political commission on human rights, so it recognises that it has prisoners would be necessary before any elections, to a lot of work to do specifically on human rights. We give sufficient time for those people to participate and should support the establishment of that commission, to organise appropriately by campaigning and making but we should ensure that it undertakes meaningful their pitch to the people of Burma. The regime would work and begins to pressure ASEAN members over have to take many steps in a very short time for us to be their human rights performance. We will keep a close willing to consider those elections as having any legitimacy eye on progress. whatever, and I have to say to the hon. Gentleman that there is very little sign of the regime being willing to do I turn now to the contact that our ambassador and that. our country have recently had with Aung San Suu Kyi. The meeting that took place between our ambassador Many hon. Members raised the question of our and Aung San Suu Kyi on 9 October was a small but contact with other countries and with international welcome development. She requested the meeting to institutions. I assure them that we use every opportunity discuss sanctions, and we invited US and Australian to make the case as to why those countries with the representatives to attend. At the meeting, she asked for closest relationships with Burma should be doing more information on the scope, impact and intent behind EU to make it clear to the regime that its behaviour is sanctions, and our ambassador answered her questions intolerable. The Prime Minister has discussed Burma in and provided additional written material afterwards. the past few weeks with the Prime Minister of Japan Importantly, Aung San Suu Kyi was seeking information, and the UN Secretary-General. In September, he raised rather than setting out a clear position. Burma with the Chinese President. He has raised it on a number of occasions recently with the Prime Minister To respond to the question from the hon. Member of India. There are many such occasions. Whenever we for Mid-Norfolk, we are of course keen for further are involved in bilateral discussions at the highest levels, meetings to take place, and we have made that clear to we constantly raise Burma and we acknowledge the the Burmese authorities. No further meeting has yet point that hon. Members have made—arguably, those taken place, but we do have regular dialogue with the countries that have the closest relationships with the leadership of Aung San Suu Kyi’s party. Subsequent to Burmese regime are in the best position to exercise the meeting on 9 October, Aung San Suu Kyi sent a influence. They are allies of ours and are countries with second letter to Than Shwe asking for a meeting with which we have a largely positive relationship, and we him. It will be interesting to see how the regime responds—it make it clear that it matters to our bilateral relationship still has to respond—to that formal request. that they take their responsibilities seriously with regard If I might update hon. Members, we have been told to human rights in Burma. that Aung San Suu Kyi today had a 50-minute meeting We are also working closely with the US, Australia with the Burmese Liaison Minister, which is an interesting and European Union partners. We agree with the US step forward. However, we should also note that the that any relaxation of sanctions must be only in response state media recently described Aung San Suu Kyi’s to tangible progress. The EU has not ruled out further initiative as dishonest, which remains a cause of concern. sanctions if the situation deteriorates. The UK was However, there is continuing dialogue, and we hope that instrumental in securing additional financial measures Than Shwe will see fit not only to meet Aung San Suu 95WH Burma9 DECEMBER 2009 Burma 96WH

[Mr. Ivan Lewis] Political freedom is absent and dissent is brutally crushed. The treatment of Burma’s ethnic groups is of particular Kyi, but seriously to engage with her on the changes concern. We will continue to use the UN human rights that need to be made in Burma. bodies to highlight those abuses. In recent weeks, the On the more general question of political prisoners, UK helped to secure a strong UN General Assembly there are more than 2,000 political prisoners in Burma. resolution on human rights abuses in Burma. Some individuals have been given sentences of up to The work of the UN special rapporteur on human 104 years in jail and have deliberately been moved to rights in Burma is crucial in investigating reports of prisons in isolated parts of the country. As hon. Members human rights abuses, and we have urged the Burmese have said—the hon. Member for Southport (Dr. Pugh) authorities to grant him full access. Comments have put this most powerfully—we are talking about individuals been made about the UN special envoy to Burma, who and about the human cost of the abuses that the regime now has a new role. All that I will say is that we hope perpetrates every day, so let me give an example. Every that his replacement proves effective, can make a real month, the sister of one political prisoner travels three difference and has credibility in his engagement with days each way by plane, road and boat to take food and the regime. The hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire supplies to her brother in a remote prison. referred to the UN special representative on sexual Through the UN and the EU, and in direct contacts violence in conflict. I hope that we get somebody of with the regime, we continue to call for the immediate high esteem and status to fill that position. Britain is and unconditional release of all political prisoners. actively seeking to ensure that that happens, because Furthermore—hon. Members asked about this—we pursue this is an issue of growing concern around the world. and highlight specific cases. To give a tangible example, The UK position on the commission of inquiry is the FCO has launched an online campaign that profiles clear. We have sought to clarify the support for such an different political prisoners each week. We are doing initiative in the Security Council, and it is clear that that in partnership with the Burmese Assistance Association there is not sufficient support at the moment to achieve for Political Prisoners and with Human Rights Watch. the consensus that would deliver the necessary resolution. For us to table a vote that would be defeated would be a Mr. Crabb: I welcome the developments that the propaganda victory par excellence for the Burmese Minister has just described, but can he point to any regime. The reason why we are being cautious about the examples of the Burmese regime releasing any political commission of inquiry is not that we do not believe that prisoners at all following pressure from the UK, the EU it is right in principle, but that we believe that tabling a or the United States? resolution that was voted down would backfire considerably in realpolitik terms. I therefore ask hon. Members Mr. Lewis: Frankly, no. The regime is still reluctant to to consider the difficult position that we are in and to do so, but we believe that pressure can work. Despite understand that we continue to engage with partners to the trumped-up charges in Aung San Suu Kyi’s bogus see whether there will be any shift in the position. trial, the regime clearly took some note of the pressure Since the bogus trial of Aung San Suu Kyi, we have applied by the international community once the verdict pushed strongly for the adoption of a comprehensive was passed, so we need to maintain that pressure. arms embargo against the Burmese regime. Our request I was about to refer to the specific example of a for an embargo was made in a letter from the Prime former political prisoner about whom our ambassador Minister to the UN Secretary-General. We continue to wrote in his Guardian blog last week. Incredibly, the believe that such an embargo would have a significant judge told this prisoner—a lawyer by profession—that impact on the regime’s behaviour, and we hope that the he must be guilty of at least one of the 90 charges UN Security Council will give serious consideration to against him and, without further ado, sentenced him to it in the near future. 10 years’ hard labour. The judge then invited him to This has been an excellent debate. It has sent a strong speak, but warned him that every sentence that he and clear message to the people of Burma and their uttered would add five years to his jail term. That is a representatives in this country that their plight will not recent example of what takes place from a court in be forgotten, that we will use the House to amplify Burma. criticism of the human rights abuses in Burma and that will do everything that we can across the parties to Dr. Pugh: The Minister may have good reason for this make a difference. omission, but he has not referred much to the idea of a United Nations commission of inquiry. Mr. Mike Hancock (in the Chair): Order. I thank Members for their thoughtful and helpful contributions Mr. Lewis: I was coming next to crimes against to the debate on Burma. I ask those who are not staying humanity and the proposed commission of inquiry. As for the next debate to leave quietly. We now move to a hon. Members have said, there is no doubt that appalling debate on the 400th anniversary of the King James human rights abuses are committed daily in Burma. Bible. 97WH 9 DECEMBER 2009 King James Bible 98WH

King James Bible Mr. Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this timely debate. He illuminates a number of people who have 11 am paid outstanding tributes to the King James version. David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): It is a pleasure, Does he not agree that Queen Victoria most famously Mr. Hancock, to speak under your chairmanship. I feel said that it was the secret of England’s greatness? that I ought to begin with an expression of disappointment. David Simpson: I agree with my hon. Friend about On three separate occasions I have raised the matter of Her Majesty’s words. This great country of ours has the 400th anniversary of the authorised or King James unfortunately moved away from many of those principles, Bible with the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and but we certainly remember what she said. Sport. The most recent occasion was in October. It was Whenever we speak of putting words in someone’s disappointing that the Department stated that it would mouth, of seeing the writing on the wall or of casting not mark the anniversary. That is especially so because I the first stone we are quoting the King James Bible. believe that it runs contrary to the Department’s remit. When we speak of the salt of the earth or of the staff of Under the heading “What we do” the Department’s life, we do likewise. When we speak of a thorn in the website states: flesh or of being at our wits’ end, we do the same. When “We encourage and help the tourism industry to improve what we talk of an eye for an eye or of a lamb to the it has to offer for all our visitors and to promote a positive image slaughter, it is because of the King James Bible. abroad.” When we talk of fighting the good fight or of going We have the opportunity to attract many thousands of from strength to strength, it is because the King James visitors from the United States and elsewhere, yet there Bible said it first. Whenever we mention babes and are no plans to take advantage of that. The website says sucklings or the apple of our eye, we are merely repeating that the Department “Sets arts policy” and that it seeks what has already been said in the King James Bible. to When we say that someone is reaping what they sowed “Broaden access for all to a rich and varied artistic and or that a leopard cannot change its spots, or we speak of cultural life”. the blind leading the blind, we are merely saying today Here we have the single greatest piece of literature in the what the King James Bible said first. English language—the highest peak of all English It is not only our literature and language that has literature—yet the Department says that it will not been influenced by the King James Bible. It has had an mark the anniversary. extraordinary and beneficial influence upon political With reference to the historic environment, the and constitutional affairs. It was the Bible of Milton Department’s website states that it is responsible for the and of the Protectorate; later, it was the Bible of the promotion of historic national treasures, including the royal Glorious Revolution, which gave us a constitutional palaces. One of those is Hampton Court, where, in monarchy and parliamentary democracy. It was the 1604, King James called the Hampton Court conference, Bible of Whitefield and the Wesleys that saved this which commissioned the King James Bible. Surely during realm from the brutality and blood of the French such a year as 2011, and in connection with such an revolution. It was the Bible carried by the founding anniversary, more could be made of Hampton Court; fathers of the United States that helped to forge that and surely the Department could help to highlight land and give the world that great democratic powerhouse. Hampton Court and its role in producing the King The King James Bible has also had an immense James Bible. influence for good in social affairs. Hospitals were built, orphanages established and charities created as a result The Department’s refusal to mark the anniversary is of its influence. The hungry were fed, the sick nursed a failure fully to discharge its own remit. However, it is and the poor given shelter, as people responded to its much more than that. I believe that it lets down the call to act. nation. I am therefore grateful to the powers that be that we are able to debate the matter today. Of course, Beyond all that, however, and above every other the phrase “the powers that be” is part of our language consideration, we must return to what is the highest and and speech only because of the King James version of greatest of all of the benefits that the King James Bible the Bible. That is one of the many reasons why the has brought to men. Yes, the hungry were fed; but far 400th anniversary is so important, and why it should be greater than that, so were hungry souls. Yes, the sick commemorated. were nursed; but so, too, were the spiritually sick, bruised and wounded. Yes, the poor were given shelter; but so The King James Bible is the greatest and most influential were the poor and broken in soul. Lives that lay in ruins piece of literature in the English language. Poet laureate were made whole, and souls that were held in bondage Andrew Motion said of it: were set at liberty. That was the greatest legacy and gift “To read it is to feel simultaneously at home, a citizen of the to the world of the King James Bible. world, and a traveller through eternity.” I commend the work of the 2011 Trust and the right The great Winston Churchill noted that the scholars hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Field). I also who produced it had forged an enduring link, literary congratulate the BBC on its assurance that this important and religious, between the English-speaking people of anniversary will be marked right across its output. We the world. David Crystal said that it now need the Government to signal that they will do all “did something that nobody else had done, or nothing else had that they can to commemorate the anniversary. done in the history of the language previously. Not even Shakespeare had managed to do as much…no other text in the history of the Mr. Nigel Dodds (Belfast, North) (DUP): I congratulate English language has done as much as the Bible to shape our my hon. Friend on securing this important debate and modern idiom”. on his eloquent speech in support of the need to 99WH King James Bible9 DECEMBER 2009 King James Bible 100WH

[Mr. Nigel Dodds] John Wesley said: “I am a creature of a day. I am a spirit come from God, and commemorate this 400th anniversary. Last Thursday in returning to God. I want to know one thing: the way to heaven. business questions, the Opposition called on the God himself has condescended to teach me the way. He has Government to take some kind of commemorative written it down in a book. Oh, give me that book! At any price action, so there is consensus across the board for the give me the book of God. Let me be a man of one book.” Government to do something on this important anniversary. Without apology, and as a Member of this House, I concur with every word that John Wesley said, and I David Simpson: I agree, and it is imperative that the say, “Give me that book! At any price give me the book Government recognise both this great anniversary and of God. Let me be a man of one book.” the spiritual work of the King James Bible. I trust that we will get a favourable response from the Minister Just as we cannot properly consider or fully understand today. the history of these islands without taking account of the influence of the King James Bible, so we cannot 11.10 am properly consider or fully understand that influence Dr. William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): I join without taking account of the divine mind behind the my hon. Friend the Member for Upper Bann (David book, or of the reason why God bequeathed it to us. It Simpson) in saying that it is a pleasure, Mr. Hancock, to was for not just its great literary value, though that serve under your chairmanship today. I congratulate my value is priceless; its language, though its language is hon. Friend on securing this timely debate on such an the grandest yet simplest form of speech in our tongue; important subject. We talk about a lot of things in the its cultural richness, though it has inspired and enthused House of Commons and in Westminster Hall, but there succeeding generations; and it was not just for good is nothing more precious that we could speak about government, though its principles are just and pure. than the Scriptures of holy truth. The authorised or Although all those things are reason enough for the King James Bible has been used under God to change Government to commemorate this anniversary, there is the world, and many, many lives throughout the world, one thing greater: this book lives. It has been burned, and much more importantly, it has changed them for but there is not the smell of fire about it. It has been the better. Charles Dickens said: buried, but no man has ever kept it in the grave. It beats, throbs and pulsates with the very life of God. This book “The New Testament is the very best book that ever was or ever will be known in the world.” sets men free. George Washington said: This may be an unusual debate for the House, and it “It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and is not often that I wish we remembered more frequently the Bible.” where we have come from and the very basis and heart I wish that many other Governments would remember of our democracy. However, this book takes the lowest, that as well. meanest, vilest and basest of men, and changes their Abraham Lincoln said: lives completely. It changes them not only outwardly, but inwardly, utterly and everlastingly. “It is the best Book which God has given to man.” Napoleon said: The Government should unashamedly shout from the rooftops that this 400th anniversary is something “The Bible is no mere book, but a Living Creature, with a power that conquers all that oppose it.” that the United Kingdom should proudly commemorate. They should not try to put it into the corner or speak of That is certainly a warning to everyone who opposes it. it silently. I urge the Minister to In each case, the Bible that was referred to was the authorised or King James Bible. C. S. Lewis said that “set her mind on things above” whenever we use words such as “beautiful”, “long- and agree with my hon. Friend and many other hon. suffering”, “peacemaker” or “scapegoat”, it is down to Members that we should mark this very, very special the influence of the King James Bible. However, it is not anniversary. It is my honour and privilege to support only in the words or the many phrases in our language, what my hon. Friend said. some of which my hon. Friend has already alluded to, that the force and influence of the King James Bible is Mr. Mike Hancock (in the Chair): Thank you, felt, but in the very rhythm of our language—the very Dr. McCrea, for a very moving and interesting contribution. way that we breathe and pause, and rise and fall as we speak. Why do we speak of chariots rather than chargers, 11.17 am of swords rather than pikes, of trumpets rather than bugles? Why have such things become our form of The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media speaking? If we researched the matter, I believe that we and Sport (Margaret Hodge): I, too, welcome this debate. would find that it is the influence of the beautiful I congratulate the hon. Member for Upper Bann (David language of the King James Bible. Simpson) on securing the slot, and I also appreciate the We simply cannot account for the history of this passionate and heartfelt way in which both he and the nation—its culture, society, literature, language, political hon. Member for South Antrim (Dr. McCrea) spoke institutions and laws—if we ignore the contribution of about the matter. Although I do not share their belief, I the King James Bible. This single volume towers above share their view about the importance of the Bible as a every other document that pertains to the United Kingdom, vital part of our history. I hope that I can allay some of and dwarfs every other document relating to this House. their concerns during my contribution. However, those matters, important as they are and as I have just finished reading “Wolf Hall” by Hilary worthy of commemoration and celebration as they are, Mantel, which won the Booker prize this year. The are all secondary whenever we come to consider this story is set in the time of Henry VIII. There is quite a book. lot in the book about the story of the first printed 101WH King James Bible9 DECEMBER 2009 King James Bible 102WH

English translation of the New Testament by William of the discrimination in society today and helped us to Tyndale. That version was seen as complete heresy by build values for the future. Before my year off on the Church, particularly because Tyndale acted unilaterally compassionate leave, I was involved in working towards and had not sought the permission of the Church the Darwin bicentenary celebrations. I do not know authorities. I commend the book to hon. Members. how the hon. Gentlemen feel about that, but it was an People were burned at the stake for that particular important occasion and was fantastically successful. version. Tyndale was burned at the stake and others Darwin has been everywhere this year. were beheaded. People were burned and lost their lives Dr. McCrea: While it is very important to talk about simply for possessing the book. There have been a the other celebrations, what we want to know is what number of versions of the English Bible: the great Bible the Government will do to celebrate the great event of of 1539, which Henry VIII commissioned; the more the 400th anniversary of the King James version of the controversial Geneva Bible, which was largely based on scriptures. That is the nub of the issue. Tyndale’s version but had many marginal notes that interpreted the text from a strict post-Reformation Margaret Hodge: I am going to come to that, but I standpoint; the bishops’ Bible of 1568; and the Douay- wanted to put the Bible celebrations into context among Rheims Bible of 1582. Therefore, we have quite a history other occasions. I just wanted to mention, also, that a in the evolution of the Bible that we have today. lot has been happening this year in connection with the It is worth remembering how that Bible was produced. accession of Henry VIII. There were 54 translators—a lot of people—who were The Government do not themselves run the events divided into groups that took consecutive books. They for commemorations—and that particularly applies to were instructed to consult one another closely, to ensure the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, which is that there would be the consistency of style that we now a tiny Department, most of whose money goes out to appreciate. They were also instructed not to take too various agencies and funded organisations, which work much from the Geneva version, which was seen as more with us but independently of us. That is important in controversial. They were told not to be opinionated in the artistic and cultural world. We do not run events, the notes that they made. All that they were to do was but facilitate them. The Department tries to make the purely to clarify the meanings of the Greek and Hebrew appropriate links and bring about appropriate working terms. Hon. Members have quoted many comments on together, to ensure that things are properly commemorated. the King James Bible today. The one that I like is the We are doing that for the Bible anniversary. description of it as The 2011 Trust, which the hon. Member for Upper “the noblest monument of English prose”. Bann mentioned, is very important. Just as we did not I think that anyone who reads it feels that it is so. do the work on the Darwin commemoration, which was Biblical phrases that might occur to politicians reflecting mainly done by the Natural History museum—I know on the expenses scandal might include that Darwin may be a bit contentious—so the 2011 Trust will take the leading role, supported by the Government, “the fat of the land”, for all the purposes that I have outlined. We are not or standing back. The trust is pulling together events, “how are the mighty fallen!” publications and literature to celebrate the impact of However, I prefer to think that “all things must pass”. the Bible on our history and language, in this country in Now, at Christmas, let us particular, and throughout the English-speaking world. “eat, drink, and be merry.” I am interested in its suggestions on commissioning new music and literature and encouraging study days in There is something we can all take from the Bible. cities along James’s route from Scotland to London, It is hugely important to make the most of celebrations and its plans to develop educational projects in schools, and commemorations of our history, whether of the publish new texts and support exhibitions in London Bible or other things, so I am slightly bemused by the and around the country where the translations were impression that the hon. Member for Upper Bann made. gained of the Government’s attitude. Such occasions Equally, the British Library—an institution that we are fantastically important in gaining a shared fund and sponsor—is making plans for one of the two understanding of the past, which helps us to build a copies of the King James Bible that it holds to be a star stronger common purpose for the present and the future, item in a forthcoming exhibition called “The Making of and therefore helps to sustain community cohesion, the English”, which will, we hope, be launched in November which is important in the hon. Gentleman’s community 2010 and run to April 2011. It will explore the English and throughout Great Britain. In my time in my present language and its national and international diversity. post I have sought out such dates of commemoration Iconic collection items will be set alongside everyday and celebration, because they become important hooks texts, to show the many social, cultural and historical for shared understanding of the past and our history; strands from which our language is woven. The King they are important for building the shared values that James Bible will be featured alongside other important we want and that make Britain such an open and treasures, such as “Beowulf”, Shakespeare’s folios, Johnson’s tolerant society. dictionary, Austen manuscripts, Scott’s diaries and Perhaps I can draw to hon. Members’ attention several recordings of speeches by Pankhurst, Churchill and occasions on which we have worked hard to use celebrations Gandhi. I have been privileged, as a Minister, to see and commemorations in that way. A couple of years and listen to some of those exhibits. The exhibition will ago, the Government put a lot of effort regarding events be very exciting, and will also display hand-written on the abolition of the slave trade. We had to think letters, recipes, posters, lists of slang, trading records, about some quite difficult issues in our past, but that adverts, children’s books, dialect recordings, text messages helped to open up an understanding that tackled some and web pages. 103WH King James Bible 9 DECEMBER 2009 104WH

Mr. Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): Are those National DNA Database exhibits to be shown all over the United Kingdom, or just in London? [MR.MIKE HANCOCK in the Chair] Margaret Hodge: The hon. Gentleman is right to bring that up. The exhibition is to be in the British 2.30 pm Library; but the British Library excels at digitising Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney, North and Stoke many of its collections and exhibitions, and I shall take Newington) (Lab): I am very grateful indeed to have the the hon. Gentleman’s point, and see what plans there opportunity to debate the issue of the national DNA are for digitisation of that exhibition. The British Library database in this House of Commons. One of the reasons also intends to run some public events. I am so grateful is that I will be contending that although There is also a role for the BBC, which is sponsored the project has extraordinary implications—both for by my Department and funded from the licence fee. It criminal justice, privacy and science—it has never been will showcase the King James Bible on television, radio subject to a proper parliamentary debate. and online, to mark the 400th anniversary. A cornerstone The DNA database is an extraordinary innovation, of its programming will be a brand new documentary which has emerged sideways and incrementally, without on BBC 2 in 2011. the full glare of parliamentary scrutiny, yet we have the biggest DNA database per head of population in the David Simpson: I thank the Minister for the information world. It is extraordinary that a project with such that she has given today, which is a breath of fresh air; ramifications has not had the parliamentary scrutiny we appreciate it. I know that BBC Northern Ireland has that it deserves, although an excellent report that touched said it will commemorate the anniversary. Will that on the issue was published by the Select Committee on happen on the mainland as well? Home Affairs, which is under the distinguished chairmanship of my right hon. Friend the Member for Margaret Hodge: Yes. I am told that it will be an Leicester, East (Keith Vaz). I hope that we will be hour-long documentary, which will be presented by hearing from my distinguished colleague later in the Lord Melvyn Bragg. It will explore the King James debate. Bible as a remarkable work of faith and a historic piece of literature that has shaped our language, history and The police do an extraordinarily difficult job. Public culture. I hope that that echoes some of the aspirations fear of crime has never been higher and all of us, as expressed by hon. Members. The documentary will also elected representatives, must take seriously public fears consider the Bible’s extraordinary legacy and how, as it of crime and the rise in some sorts of crime, such as spread to the new world and the colonies, it helped to violent or sexual crime, particularly in many of our big shape the world. cities. No one feels more strongly about the matter than I do, because I represent Hackney in the east end of I hope that I have given hon. Members some comfort, London, where, sadly, we do see such crimes. but if they have other ideas, they are welcome to let us know. The fact that Government do not front something Of course, if somebody is proven guilty in a court of does not mean that we do not work to support it. I law, no one objects to their DNA being kept in principle. share with the hon. Gentlemen the understanding of The issue is the indiscriminate collection of innocent the importance of the 400th anniversary of the King people’s DNA. I spell that out right at the beginning James Bible, and I hope that it will help us to build the because, sadly, when Ministers talk about the DNA community cohesion that we all want throughout Britain. database, they tend to merge and elide innocent and guilty people. It is almost as if the Government have a 11.29 am third category: rather than someone being wholly innocent, they might be not really innocent. As a Parliament, we Sitting suspended. must stand firm on one of the oldest British traditions: innocent until proven guilty. Having spoken about the importance of what the police do and our support for the police, the problem with indiscriminately collecting the DNA of innocent people is the very serious possibility that that will undermine the community’s confidence in the police and harm community and police relations. The Home Affairs Committee pointed to that in its report on this and related matters.

Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Ind): Is the situation not even worse, as some people in the community think that the police are making arrests when they would not do so otherwise, in order to collect DNA from people who will almost certainly be proven innocent?

Ms Abbott: That is a very important point. It is alarming if innocent people are being harassed and arrested when, at the end of the day, the police do not think that a successful prosecution can be brought and the purpose is merely to increase the size of the 105WH National DNA Database9 DECEMBER 2009 National DNA Database 106WH

DNA database. I will touch on some of the cases I have inconsistency here, because the Government say that dealt with in which it was very clear that there was no they will remove DNA from the database after six years, possibility of arrest, but the police refused to release the but local police forces will remove it rather earlier when DNA. they are under pressure. Of course, when talking about the indiscriminate collection of DNA, one must make the point that Ms Abbott: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his 77 per cent. of young black men aged 16 to 35 are on intervention. My argument is not that there should not the database. As somebody who has been in politics— be a database, or even that, under certain specific political activity—for more years than I care to remember, circumstances, the DNA of innocent people should not and who has campaigned against the unfair use of stop be kept. The problem is the chaos and the lack of a and search, I believe that we cannot pass over that system. The people to whom my hon. Friend referred subject. Even though it might seem like a useful got their DNA removed almost immediately. I am working administrative procedure for stopping young black boys with completely innocent people who have waited years willy-nilly to get their DNA, people have a highly and years to get their DNA removed because, as I say, developed sense of fairness, and if they think they are the Metropolitan police seem to labour under the idea being stopped and searched unfairly, or that their DNA that keeping such DNA is mandatory rather than being is being taken unfairly and there is no possibility of a a matter of their discretion. successful prosecution, it cannot help confidence in the police generally or police-community relations. Bob Spink: In fact, there is more than confusion about the matter. The Government cannot rely on the Dr. Andrew Murrison (Westbury) (Con): I congratulate fact that chief constables may at their discretion remove the hon. Lady on initiating this important debate. Does innocent people’s DNA, because some chief constables she consider that profiling is acceptable under any have a different policy from others. In Essex, I have not circumstances? been able to get a single innocent person’s DNA removed from the database. That is unfair, discriminatory and Ms Abbott: If profiling means that someone will arbitrary. The Government cannot hide behind the make assumptions about a person’s criminality or the discretion of chief constables; they must act to resolve sort of crime they might be about to commit or that the problem. they have committed on the basis of their skin colour, no. There is such a thing as scientific profiling, but the Ms Abbott: The hon. Gentleman is quite right. We broad-brush profiling whereby a black teenage boy will have an arbitrary, discriminatory system. Yet,Ministers— be stopped in an Oxford street store as they go through later in my remarks I shall quote from letters I have the door, which has happened to my friends’ children received from Ministers—seek to hide behind the discretion and to my son, does not help anyone and does not help of chief constables. The Government have to intervene, to solve crime. and there must be a proper framework. Let me just give a brief overview of the introduction of the DNA database to this country, because it is so Keith Vaz (Leicester, East) (Lab): I also congratulate much a part of criminal justice that many people do not my hon. Friend on obtaining the debate. Following on know how relatively recently it was introduced. During from the point made by the hon. Member for Castle the early 1980s, Professor Sir Alec Jeffreys was working Point (Bob Spink), Members have pressed Ministers—not on a scientific basis for DNA fingerprinting. Ten years necessarily to interfere with the discretion, but at the later, the DNA database was set up based on DNA very least to issue guidance. It is possible for Ministers fingerprinting technology that was invented by Professor to issue guidance and for Her Majesty’s chief inspector Jeffreys. Since the beginning in 1995—not even 20 years of constabulary, Denis O’Connor, to say to chief constables, ago—more than 5 million DNA profiles have been “When people write in, at the very least write back,” collected and are currently being kept. Prior to 2001, because one of the problems is that they just do not DNA that was collected from individuals who were reply. If we get that customer service sorted out, it could arrested was destroyed on acquittal. However, in May actually improve the system. 2001, the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 was amended to permit DNA to be kept on the database—it Ms Abbott: My right hon. Friend is, as ever, both a did not mandate that DNA be kept on the database. philosopher and intensely practical. If the service offered The difference between something being permitted and to people to try to remove their DNA from a database being mandated is a point to which I will return, because was more efficient and less arbitrary, and if there were I think that the police have got confused between the guidelines, much of the unhappiness would be removed. two issues. Some people get their DNA removed from a database David Taylor (North-West Leicestershire) (Lab/Co-op): in weeks or months; some people wait years and are still My hon. Friend mentioned the 5 million figure. Some waiting to have their DNA removed at the whim, in a 800,000 of those live in the midlands. At an indie band way, of different police forces. That cannot be fair, it is concert at The Oak in Burntwood, Staffordshire just not regarded as fair and it feeds a distrust of the whole 2 weeks ago, the band were wrongfully arrested. Police system. That is unfortunate, because a database of helicopters, dogs and a whole panoply of things were guilty people and perhaps some innocent people, whose used, the band were taken into custody for having a DNA would only be collected under very specific conditions, gun—so a CCTV officer said—and their DNA was serves an important purpose in fighting crime. taken. However, under pressure from the media and the I referred earlier to legislation in 2001 to amend the general public, Staffordshire police promised to delete Police and Criminal Evidence Act. That amendment that DNA and remove it from the database. There is permitted DNA to be kept on the database. However, 107WH National DNA Database9 DECEMBER 2009 National DNA Database 108WH

[Ms Abbott] does she not agree that we need to have the evidence base before we start making policy? Unfortunately, we even when the issue was discussed in the House during seem to have got it the wrong way round. debates on that legislation, many Members felt that not enough time had been given to scrutinise it, which, Ms Abbott: I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman sadly, is not an uncommon occurrence. for that intervention. Of course that is the problem. In 2004, PACE was amended again, to enable the There is very little evidential basis for what the Government police to take the fingerprints and DNA of anyone aged are doing. Indeed, I would like to quote Sir Alec Jeffreys, 10 or over who is arrested for a recordable offence. the father of the DNA database, who might be supposed Later, the Serious Organised Crime and Police Act 2005 to know more about the science and the statistics of made all offences arrestable, which had the side effect of DNA than most people. He entirely dismisses the Home vastly increasing the number of people who could go on Office argument that keeping the genetic details of a DNA database automatically. everyone, even those acquitted of a crime, helps to solve Therefore, the database has grown neither through an other crimes. On this issue, he said: act of will of Parliament nor through a coherent discussion “If you just dumped a few hundred thousand people at random about the guidelines, the purpose and the underlying on to the database you’d get the same effect.” principles—how big it should be, the procedures involved I have had meetings with the Metropolitan police and and people’s rights in relation to having their DNA kept the people in charge of their database and they admit by the police. Instead, it has grown incrementally as a that they have not done the research to demonstrate a result of permissive legislation that was slipped into big, real benefit arising from our system, which is indiscriminate, portmanteau criminal justice Bills that were never properly as opposed to the system that exists in other parts of the debated in the House at any stage. That is not a satisfactory British isles. way to set up the largest DNA database in the world, As has been pointed out already, England, Wales and with so many implications for our civil liberties. Northern Ireland are alone in Europe in retaining DNA indefinitely from people of any age for any offence. David Taylor: It is possible that the Minister, who is That is why, as I said earlier, we have the biggest in many ways a very able and sensitive man, will say in database compared with population size in the world. his response to the debate that he is concerned to hear what my hon. Friend is saying, but that last year alone As I have said, among the problems with the DNA almost 20,000 crimes were solved using a DNA match, database is the lack of proper debate and thought about including 83 killings and 184 rapes, and that the retention it, the fact that it is arbitrary and the fact that it can be of the DNA of innocent people on the database is just seen as discriminatory. The issue has been raised with an unfortunate and unavoidable cost that must be borne me in the past, so this year I have been working with by those people. Would my hon. Friend say that that is Liberty on a project that tries to help innocent young sufficient reason? people who have had their DNA taken and kept by the police to get it taken off the database. That speaks to the arbitrary nature of the decisions that are being Ms Abbott: As always, my hon. Friend displays both made in the police force. his perception and his mastery of the figures. Yes, of course, the Minister will throw at us figures for crimes For instance, we are trying to help a young man of 21 that have been solved by the use of the DNA database. I with serious learning disability and autism. Prior to his conceded that point—that DNA is used to solve crimes—at arrest, he had no previous arrests, convictions or cautions. the beginning of my remarks. However, the question is However, he is autistic and has a fascination with trains how many of those crimes were solved by the DNA of and women’s shoes. Occasionally, he asks women if he innocent people having been kept? Furthermore, if we can clean their shoes. On one occasion, the woman he restricted the collection of DNA from innocent people asked consented, but then she thought that he touched to certain specific categories of violent and sexual crime, the lower part of her leg. He was arrested on suspicion could we not achieve the same results without taking of sexual assault, and was photographed and had his DNA willy-nilly from children under 16 or from people DNA and prints taken. Finally, he was interviewed in for whom there is no chance of prosecution? Also, I was the company of his father and it was established that he going to return to Sir Alec Jeffreys, the father of DNA— was non-threatening and autistic. No charges were pressed and yet his DNA has been retained indefinitely. Keith Vaz: He is from Leicester. A teenage boy was in Finsbury park with his friends on bicycles. A robbery took place elsewhere in the park, Ms Abbott: Indeed, he is from Leicester. which is huge. The police obviously swept the park and arrested every young black man in it. The teenage boy Dr. Murrison: The hon. Lady is being extremely was arrested and held in a police station for eight hours. generous in giving way and taking interventions. I think Eventually, he was released without charge and the that she has probably hit the nail on the head, because police confirmed that no further action would be taken surely the problem is that we do not have an adequate against him. Again, he had no previous arrests, convictions scientific basis on which to make such judgments. The or cautions, but the police are holding his DNA indefinitely fact that in November the Home Secretary had to effect and resisting any attempts to remove it from the database. something of a U-turn on DNA suggests that he does A young girl of 17 was shopping with her mum, who not have that evidence either. We have no way of judging was arrested on suspicion of shoplifting. The girl was whether the Scottish system, which is a far more liberal told that nothing would happen to her, but she was system than the one in England, is better or worse than taken to the police station along with her mum and had the English system, which we are debating today. So, her DNA taken, which the Met is sitting on indefinitely. 109WH National DNA Database9 DECEMBER 2009 National DNA Database 110WH

A teenage boy in Greenwich park was having a The territorial support group representative then wrote water-fight. In another part of Greenwich park—it, to me again. He claimed that he had never told anyone too, is a big park—an assault took place. The police that it was mandatory, but made no offer to remove the swept the park for all young black men. They came to 14-year-old’s DNA from the database. I am not talking the boy’s house, arrested him, took him to a police about the two boys in the front of the car, although they station and took his DNA. No further action was taken were innocent; I am talking about a 14-year-old girl by the police, but they are still sitting on his DNA who was getting a lift home. She had no previous indefinitely. convictions. Her mum is a sculptor and her dad is an architect. The police refused to remove the DNA from A young girl of 16 was a victim of bullying at school. their database. She and the child bullying her got into a fight and the police were called to the school. The police arrested Finally, in June, I got a reply from the then Parliamentary them both and took DNA from them both. No charges Under-Secretary of State for the Home Office, my right were pressed—it was a schoolgirl fight—but the DNA hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, North (Joan Ryan): is being held indefinitely. “Chief Constables retain the discretion to decide whether or not fingerprints and samples will be retained in individual cases A young woman of 25, who had no previous arrests, although it would be the norm to do so. The matter of discretion convictions or cautions, went to Primark to return some is an operational one for the police force involved and not one goods that she had got the day before. She was wearing— into which the Home Secretary has any input.” well, there are Members here who obviously shop at Ministers are hiding behind chief constables, even though Gucci, rather than Primark, especially my right hon. they have not issued guidelines to chief constables, there Friend the Member for Leicester, East who would not has never been a debate and there is no procedure or be seen in Primark. process. A 14-year-old girl with no previous convictions was kept in a cell when she should not have been, and Keith Vaz: Harrods. the police do not want to let go of her DNA. Dr. Murrison: I am fascinated to know what the Ms Abbott: Harrods—exactly. [Laughter.] The girl discretion is based on. Do the police feel that the person went to Primark to return some goods that she had might have been involved in a crime before and that bought the day before. She was also wearing a Primark they need to check up on them, or are they making a sweater that she had bought the day before, but she value judgment about the likelihood that the person will took the precaution of taking the receipt with her to the commit a crime in future? It seems odd that there is no shop. None the less, she was arrested on suspicion of guidance at all. Surely it is a matter for the Home stealing the sweater that she was wearing. Nobody was Secretary. If it is his intention to have a database against interested in the receipt that she had for it, so she was which suspected future felons can be checked, that is arrested. She was questioned for nine hours and released. surely a matter for the Home Office and not for individual The police are holding her DNA indefinitely. police forces and chief constables acting on discretion, which does not appear to be based on anything. The final case that I will refer to involves two young girls aged 17 and 14. They were at a party in south London and then, at 9 o’clock, they were in the back of Ms Abbott: It is based on nothing, and it leads to the a car on their way home. It was a party at Easter, as they sort of inequality between police forces that other hon. were on their Easter holidays from school. The car was Members have referred to. stopped by the police and there was a scuffle between the police and the driver. The driver, another boy who David Taylor: Is there not a risk, or even a suspicion, was in the front of the car and the two girls were taken that innocent people whose DNA is destroyed or withdrawn to Lewisham police station. Both the young girls, who, are likely to be the offspring of local worthies, but that as I say, were 17 and 14, were arrested, handcuffed and the DNA of someone from the wrong side of the tracks kept in a cell for hours while they had their DNA taken. will stay on the database for a long time? No charges were ever brought against the young men. So, in April 2006 I wrote to Chief Superintendent Ms Abbott: Precisely, unless there are guidelines, Archie Torrance, the borough commander of Lewisham transparency and accountability. Chief constables are police, about this incident. It took him a month to write doing it at their whim and pleasure. back to me and say that the arresting officers were My right hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, North actually part of the territorial support group and I completed her letter to me by saying that the Home would have to write to that group. Secretary has no input into such decisions and that: A few weeks later, I heard from a representative of “Yourconstituents should therefore contact the Commissioner the territorial support group, who said that he was of the Metropolitan Police Service and ask if he considers there looking into the matter, and in a few more weeks I got a are sufficiently exceptional circumstances in this case to merit the response. Although the response did not say so explicitly, removal of the DNA profile from the database.” it gave the clear impression that the keeping of DNA What could be more exceptional than a 14-year-old girl after an arrest for a recordable offence was mandatory with no previous convictions who was arrested as part and that territorial support had no discretion in the of an incident where no charges were pressed? At that matter, so I wrote to my right hon. Friend and colleague point, two years ago, Ministers seemed to be saying that the Member for Harrow, East (Mr. McNulty), the then the onus was on innocent people to show why their Minister for Policing, Security and Community Safety. DNA should be withdrawn and that that would be He wrote back to me saying that it was a matter for the the exception rather than the rule, however innocent discretion of the police. they were. 111WH National DNA Database9 DECEMBER 2009 National DNA Database 112WH

Keith Vaz: As a result of what my hon. Friend has The Home Secretary’s written statement in November done on the issue—she probably does not know this, as setting out the finalised Home Office plans in response it has not been announced—the Select Committee on to the ECHR ruling took into account none of the Home Affairs decided on Tuesday to hold an inquiry opinions in the consultation. I will not go through the into the DNA database. It would be extremely helpful if Government’s plans, but I will make one point. The she could arrange for some of the people whom she has original consultation document contained plans to retain mentioned with such eloquence to give evidence to the the DNA of under-18s who were arrested but not inquiry. convicted. We have not had any more information, so I would like to hear what will be done about that group of Ms Abbott: I would be glad to do so. I am pleased to people. hear that the Select Committee is going to take that In conclusion, I draw Parliament’s attention to the action. views of Sir Alec Jeffreys, the father of DNA. One In July, the mother of the two girls got a letter from would expect the father of the science to be in favour of Detective Inspector Tracy Sherman of the Met. It simply a vast database, of collecting as much DNA from as rehearsed the legal position under the Police and Criminal many people as possible and of the fact that we have the Evidence Act 1984, saying that the police had the power biggest DNA database relative to population in the to do what they did: world. However, he says: “In this case the arrest was lawful and therefore the power to “My view is very clear that if you have been convicted of a take and retain DNA exists.” crime then you owe it to society to be retained on that database for catching in the future should you reoffend. But the retention In other words, “We can do it legally, we are doing it of entirely innocent people is a whole different issue. There is a and there’s nothing you can do about it.” That was the sort of presumption here that if they haven’t committed any police position. The onus is on an innocent 14-year-old crime now, then they will in the future.” girl to show that the circumstances merit removal. That is this Government’s midway point: not quite Since then, the hon. Member for North Southwark innocent and not quite guilty. and Bermondsey (Simon Hughes), who was also involved with the family, has written to the Metropolitan police. David Taylor: Not proven. Earlier this year, I met Gary Pugh, the director of forensic services at the Met, to raise the case again. He Ms Abbott: Which is not a verdict in the British wrote to me to say that, in the end, the two girls’ DNA system. Sir Alec went on to say: was removed from the database in 2008. It took two “I have never seen any argument in favour of England, Wales years and two MPs. The police tried to hide behind and Northern Ireland being the only countries in the world to Ministers, and Ministers tried to hide behind chief retain the DNA of entirely innocent people. There are serious constables. It was a thoroughly unedifying incident, and issues of discrimination and stigmatisation of branches of society it is one of the things that drew me into the issue. that are over-represented on the database.” Most importantly, in December 2008, the European That is the man who invented the science. He also said Court of Human Rights ruled against the indefinite that there was a possibility of miscarriages of justice: retention on the database of the DNA of people who “Let’s suggest you have two samples that get swapped, and I have not been convicted of a crime. I will quote some of stress that the likelihood is very low, but given the huge amount of what the Court said, because it is important. The Court case work one has to be mindful of the fact that there is not a zero said that it was probability, then you may get an error. You may have the wrong profile and come up with the wrong suspect.” “struck by the blanket and indiscriminate nature of the power of retention in England and Wales”, If the ECHR judgment did not bring a blush to Ministers’ cheeks, Sir Alec Jeffrey’s reply to the that the retention of the DNA in question Government’s response ought to. He said: “fails to strike a fair balance between the competing public and “It seems to be about as minimal a response to the European private interests” court of human rights judgment as one could conceive. There is a and that the UK Government had presumption not of innocence but of future guilt here…which I find very disturbing indeed. “overstepped any acceptable margin of appreciation in this regard”. I do not see this as balanced and proportionate. It still places The Court further ruled that England, Wales and Northern Ireland as the only jurisdictions in “the retention at issue constitutes a disproportionate interference the world, to my knowledge, to retain such large amounts of with the applicants’ right to respect for private life and cannot be innocent DNA information.” regarded as necessary in a democratic society.” He dismissed the prediction that if the proposals were Even if some Home Office Ministers are anti-European, followed, 4,500 fewer crimes would be detected, which one might expect that such a ruling would bring a blush we will no doubt hear from the Minister. He said: to their cheeks. Not at all. They waited five months “There is an unspoken assumption in here that these thousands before consulting on their proposals. When they went of crimes that will not be detected by not having the DNA will out to consultation, they got 503 responses from lawyers, remain undetected and that simply isn’t the case. A significant police organisations, children’s rights groups and so on. number of these will be detectable through conventional police It is interesting that their proposals after consultation work”. are almost exactly the same as the proposals that they We have the biggest DNA database in relation to put out to consultation in the first place. In other words, population in the world. It is an extraordinary innovation Members will be shocked to hear, they took no notice of in science, which has consequences for personal intrusion the consultation. That is rare and unusual where and civil liberties. It is condemned by the man who Governments are concerned, so I do not want to shock invented the science, even though one might imagine younger Members unduly. that he would support the hoovering up of DNA willy-nilly. 113WH National DNA Database9 DECEMBER 2009 National DNA Database 114WH

A European Court judgment has struck down the basis The database criminalises many young people for of the Government’s collection of DNA. I put it to the behaviour that would not have been considered criminal Government that a more serious debate on this issue is in the past. We have raised cases such as the case of the long overdue. two children building a den up a cherry tree in debates I repeat that no one is against collecting the DNA of this year in various Committees. As has been reported guilty people; no one is even saying that there are not in the national press, some police forces, such as Derbyshire, limited circumstances in which we should keep the are experimenting with restorative justice, whereby police DNA of people who have not been convicted, but who are urged not to take children through a criminal process— have been accused of certain crimes. However, there is including taking DNA—and give them a criminal record no scientific research basis for keeping the DNA of in such circumstances, but to get them to apologise to innocent people in the way that the Government have the person involved, restore the damage if possible or done or the way that they propose to do. That has make it up in some other way. Although a few forces are detrimental effects on community relations. experimenting with that provision, it does not alter the fact that over 12 years, there has been an increasing Mr. Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): I, criminalisation of young people for things that would too, commend the hon. Lady on securing this debate. I not have been crimes when we were children. have listened carefully to her powerful argument. For As we heard from the hon. Member for Hackney, some time, she has alluded to Ministers hiding behind North and Stoke Newington, the huge DNA database the discretionary power of chief constables and to the has been accumulated not following a major parliamentary lack of guidance issued by Ministers. Is she aware of the or national debate, but incrementally, without any formal representative body of chief police officers having requested discussion, recognition or acceptance. Over the years, such guidance from Ministers? I am not. Does she an increasing number of people have expressed concern know whether such guidance would be welcomed? about that. Most recently, the European Court of Human Ms Abbott: I am not aware that chief constables have Rights ruled that it contravenes human rights in various requested guidance. However, people not requesting ways. The Government’s first response to that ruling guidance has not stopped the Government from issuing came at the Committee stage of the Policing and Crime it in the past, whether to official organisations or members Bill in February. At the last minute, after six weeks of of the public. The Government are free with their intensive and productive debate, they took a blank-cheque guidance when it suits them. Chief constables not asking approach, saying that if we gave them permission to for guidance is not a reason for the Government not to produce regulations, they would do something about provide it. the ruling, but that they would not tell us what the solution was until after the Bill had completed its In closing, at the least there should be proper guidelines. passage through Parliament. Of course, we all said that The Government should rethink their response to the that was unacceptable. A few weeks ago, on the last day European Court of Human Rights ruling because of the last Session, the Government withdrew that everybody, including the man who invented the science, proposal and instead a new Bill was proposed in the thinks that it is wholly inadequate. The Government Queen’s Speech. need a much more balanced approach to the keeping of innocent people’s DNA. They are building up a huge As has been said, nobody doubts that DNA evidence database with no evidentiary basis to show that doing is a major scientific step forward. It provides valuable so will help to solve crimes, yet they are doing it in the assistance in the convictions of some criminals and in name of being tough on crime and to outdo other proving some people innocent. As the Secretary of parties. They are not considering the implications for State pointed out in the Queen’s Speech debate in the civil liberties and community relations or issues of House, people who have been in prison for years have fairness in public policy. I urge the Government to been cleared as a result of DNA evidence. Despite its reconsider before it is too late and to allow Parliament a value, we should not overestimate the role of DNA. In a full debate on the issue. parliamentary answer on 21 October, the Minister stated that in 2008-09, a DNA match had been available in 3.4 pm only 0.68 per cent. of cases. That is less than 1 per Paul Holmes (Chesterfield) (LD): The Minister, the cent.—it is closer to 0.5 per cent. than to 1 per cent. He hon. Member for Hornchurch (James Brokenshire) and also stated: I have discussed the DNA database at least five times “It is also important to note that the detections are achieved over the past year, beginning with our consideration of through integrated criminal investigation, not through DNA the Policing and Crime Bill at the beginning of the year. alone.”—[Official Report, 21 October 2009; Vol. 497, c. 1538W.] I will summarise the key points, which the hon. That means that a percentage of cases even smaller Member for Hackney, North and Stoke Newington than 0.68 per cent. were solved by DNA alone, because (Ms Abbott) ably encapsulated. We have the largest other criminal investigations were under way. An even DNA database in the world. Approximately a fifth of smaller percentage of cases are solved as a result of the people on it—about 1 million people—are innocent, people being on the database because they were innocent, which means that they were never convicted or charged. rather than being convicted of a crime. We do not know Many people think that to keep such a large database quite how much smaller than 0.68 per cent. that small with so many innocent people on it is simply wrong. percentage is, because a lot of the Government’s policy The database includes disproportionate numbers of groups seems to be based on flimsy research and assertion, such as ethnic minorities, and we have heard examples rather than on detailed evidence. One example of the to illustrate that. It also contains a disproportionate problem comes from the Jill Dando Institute, on whose number of children and young people, and people with work the Government based their initial policy of retaining mental health conditions. innocent people’s DNA for six or 12 years, depending 115WH National DNA Database9 DECEMBER 2009 National DNA Database 116WH

[Paul Holmes] That was in April. On 13 November—months later—my constituent told me: on the category of crime for which they were originally “I never heard a thing”, questioned, but for which they were never charged or and we have heard exactly the same thing in other convicted. The institute later said that its research should examples that we have been given. As we have heard, not have been used, because it was unfinished. Gloria people write to the chief constable and their local police Laycock, the director of the institute, said that Government force, but they do not even receive an acknowledgement policy or a letter saying no—they just do not hear anything. “should be based on proper analysis and evidence and we did our best to try and produce some in a terribly tiny timeframe, using data we were not given direct access to...That was probably a David Taylor: Just for clarification, I should say that mistake with hindsight, we should have just said ‘you might as in the case that I mentioned of the indie band The well just stick your finger in the air and think of a number.’” Thirst, the chief constable of Staffordshire, under significant pressure, promised the same weekend to remove the If that is the research on which Government policy is DNA from the database. What concerns many people, based, we really have to worry. however, is the inconsistency of the approach. As regards the people on the database, we also have the evidence of former chief constable Tony Lake, who Paul Holmes: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that used to head the national DNA database board. He clarification. said that one of the key problems with policy on this issue is the lack of reliable data on the number and Last April, my constituent said, “Right, you’ve dropped types of crimes that have been directly solved by retaining the case. Can you take my DNA off the database?” He the DNA profiles of innocent people. He said: had had no answer by November. A few weeks previously, in early autumn, he says that he had again requested “It is not a straightforward issue because a lot of people who removal and that the PC had again said that she had commit the most serious crime and become serial offenders don’t forwarded his request to the professional standards start their criminal careers with serious offences…This is an immensely complex issue which is why I do think there needs to department. Again, however, there was no further response. be a very thorough study on offending patterns.” My constituent added—this was in evidence that he submitted to Liberty— As we heard in the opening speech, however, the Government seem not to have accumulated this huge “It was after this that I got Paul Holmes to write on my behalf” database on the basis of detailed research and evidence, and they have rushed to make off-the-cuff responses to to the chief constable. However, we are still not much the European Court ruling, blank-cheque proposals in further forward a few weeks later, in December. My the Policing and Crime Bill and now their new proposals, constituent went on to say that the professional standards which are essentially a rehash of old ones. There is still department no serious systematic research to underpin their policy, “confirmed that my complaint had been ‘recorded’—but have which, to many people, is extremely illiberal and a never responded regarding the request for the return of my DNA contravention of human rights, as well as criminalising nor to give details of how to make a request under the ‘Exceptional people who should not be criminalised and leading to Circumstances’” all sorts of other issues. There is therefore a lack of procedure. research on exactly how many cases are solved by DNA The exceptional circumstances procedure recommended alone, and there is a lack of evidence to underpin the in ACPO guidelines includes all sorts of grounds on Government’s proposals on retaining the DNA of innocent which a chief constable might agree to remove a DNA people. That must cast very serious doubt on the sample from the database. Those grounds include the Government’s approach to this issue. fact that a false allegation was made; the subject was We have heard of individual cases from the constituency unlawfully or wrongly arrested or unlawfully cautioned; of the hon. Member for Hackney, North and Stoke the caution was inappropriate; or the subject was unlawfully Newington in London, but we all have similar examples processed. However, most of those grounds do not from our own constituencies. One constituent of mine touch on the possibility that the subject was actually was assaulted by a group of youths in Derby. There innocent—that is not one of the reasons given for why were lots of witnesses, but he was also arrested. The the DNA might be removed from the database. As we other youths made counter-charges, even though five of have heard, however, there are lots of examples of chief them attacked him. The case was going to court, but in constables making different interpretations. When the April, my constituent finally heard that it had been Secretary of State debated the issue in the Queen’s dropped. He immediately contacted the police and then Speech debate, however, he said that the practice of the chief constable. He says: chief constables would not really change until the Crime “I requested return of my DNA within 24 hours of being told and Security Bill had gone through the parliamentary by the police (April this year) that the case had been dropped.” process. Given that we have 70 parliamentary days before a general election must be held, that process is He goes on to say that the PC unlikely to reach a full conclusion. “told me that it was retained. I then pointed out the ‘Exceptional There are therefore lots of problems with the database, Circumstances’ ruling”— including the way in which it has been accumulated, the it is not really a ruling, but a procedure recommended huge percentage of innocent people on it, the difficulty by the Association of Chief Police Officers— that innocent people have in getting their DNA removed “and asked how to make an appeal under this procedure. She from it, the lack of clarification, guidance and procedures, replied saying that she had forwarded my request to the Professional the Government’s stonewalling and the lack of a scientific Standards Department, from whom I would hear shortly.” base to underpin the Government’s policies. 117WH National DNA Database9 DECEMBER 2009 National DNA Database 118WH

Why does all this matter? One argument that we hear it is an extremely important debate in setting the framework is, “If you’ve nothing to fear, you’ve nothing to hide.” for the retention of DNA, which is highly sensitive One point that that I have raised several times, but material. which always gets rebutted, is that if we follow through We are talking about some fairly fundamental issues the logic of the Government’s wish to have the largest in our democracy: getting the right and proportionate DNA database in the world—the database contains 1 balance; considerations such as people being innocent million innocent people, as well as up to 5 million until proven guilty; the fact that, as the hon. Lady people with convictions of various kinds—the safest mentioned, the Government have yet to respond on the thing would be to record the DNA of everybody in the matter of the blanket, indiscriminate approach that has country. There are problems with such a scheme, such been adopted to date; and the fact that 12 months on as its sheer size and cost, but that would be the logic of from the extremely important judgment in S and Marper, the Government’s wish to have the biggest DNA database we are no further forward. In that case, the Court gave a possible because the DNA might be useful in dealing very clear signal that the Government’s current approach with just over 0.5 per cent. of crimes in a given year. is unlawful, and it remains unlawful to this day. Ms Abbott: The hon. Gentleman mentions an argument The hon. Member for Hackney, North and Stoke that we often hear—“If you’re innocent, you’ve nothing Newington made some important points about the to fear.” One thing that people have to fear, however, is nature and impact of the Government’s approach, and the number of mistakes on the DNA database. In 2007, the fact that disproportionately more black boys are on the Home Office released figures showing that there the DNA database, in comparison with other groups were more than 500,000 faults or wrongly recorded represented in the country’s population. That raises names on the database. Furthermore, as I said earlier, as serious issues, including the disproportionate representation the database gets bigger, the issue of errors will become of young people generally on the database, and how the more important. database has grown. We have had a sort of mission creep. The hon. Lady described the lack of guidelines Paul Holmes: I thank the hon. Lady for that intervention. for chief constables on removal of DNA from the She is quite correct. One problem with creating a database database, and that point was well made. of the current size, let alone a database for the whole population, is its cost and manageability. The bigger the Jeremy Corbyn (Islington, North) (Lab): I am sorry database gets, however, the more chance there is that that I missed the first part of the speech of my hon. mistakes will occur. There is also more chance that that Friend the Member for Hackney, North and Stoke data will leak out. In that respect, we all know the Newington. record of large organisations—the Government’s is well The hon. Gentleman must be aware, as I am, that the known, but other large organisations have similar issues. retention of young people’s DNA simply reflects the Recently, people in mobile phone companies were selling stop-and-search policies that mean DNA can often be data from one company to another. In any large taken, if the person is taken into the police station. organisation with large amounts of sensitive data, there Also, a lot of young people are, frankly, almost unaware will be more chance of that data getting lost, being sold that they have had their DNA taken, or that it is held in or being illegally passed on. a record. Because of that, they have no idea how to get In November, in a report entitled “Nothing to Hide, rid of it, either. It returns to haunt them, often many Nothing to Fear?”, the Human Genetics Commission years later, when they were completely unaware that said: they had any record against them in the first place. “DNA captures an individual’s very ‘genetic soul’…the most intimate medical data an individual may possess.” James Brokenshire: The hon. Gentleman makes an It warned of the dangers of such data being collected in important point about the consequences of having simply large amounts. The Nuffield Council on Bioethics has let the database grow without proper debate, a proper expressed strong concern that the database shifts the statutory framework, or proper consideration of whether relationship between the citizen and the state to the we wanted, in the first place, to get to the position we extent that the state will treat all individuals as potential are now in. It has simply happened, rather than our offenders, rather than as citizens of good will. making any conscious decision that we wanted to end up where we are. I shall come on to some comments On all those grounds, which we have addressed several made in the S and Marper judgment about what the times this year, but which we will obviously continue to policy framework and intentions were. address, I urge the Minister to think again about the rehashed proposals in the Queen’s Speech. I urge him to go back to a proper scientific evaluation of the issue, Ms Abbott: On the number of young people, both because former chief constable Tony Lake says that we black and white, whose DNA is on the database, is the do not have one, as does the Jill Dando Institute, even hon. Gentleman surprised to know that young people though the institute was prayed in aid to support in Hackney have, as young people do, turned the whole Government policy earlier this year. I urge the Minister thing on its head, and that they now feel that having to start again. their DNA taken is a mark of being on the way to becoming a fully-fledged criminal? The problem is that 3.19 pm that is just one of a series of signals that society is giving young people in some areas that they are almost doomed James Brokenshire (Hornchurch) (Con): I congratulate to be criminals. That cannot be right. We should be the hon. Member for Hackney, North and Stoke Newington reinforcing the positive, rather than subjecting them to (Ms Abbott) on securing the debate. I am only sorry an arbitrary regime that gives them the feeling that they that more hon. Members have not participated, because are stigmatised. 119WH National DNA Database9 DECEMBER 2009 National DNA Database 120WH

James Brokenshire: The hon. Lady makes a point the right balance between the promotion of the wider about unintended consequences, and I do not intend to public interest and public safety and the protection of stray into the wider debate about youth offending and important private life interests. That is obviously central the prevention of crime. However, society must consider to this afternoon’s debate. As Professor Jonathan some of the messages that are being sent out and how, Montgomery, the chair of the Human Genetics practically, we can break into generational issues and Commission, notes: try to stop what we have described as the conveyor belt “DNA evidence plays a significant role in bringing criminals to crime. before the courts and securing convictions. But it is not clear how As to how we have got where we are, the hon. Lady far holding DNA profiles on a central database improves police described that quite clearly in recounting her own experience. investigations. We have to strike a proper balance between identifying I was interested to read on her website about the clinic offenders and protecting privacy, including that of innocent that she set up with Liberty to provide advice to young people—we should not compromise that privacy without good people whose DNA had been retained by the police. It reason.” threw up the issue of inconsistency and the lack of That is a good description of the focus that is needed in guidance and certainty for those young people—and, as the debate—on those principles that Professor Montgomery we have heard this afternoon, for the police—about the identified. appropriate course of action. I therefore hope that we The UK, as the hon. Member for Hackney, North shall continue the debate in the weeks ahead, when we and Stoke Newington mentioned, has proportionately reach the detailed consideration of the Crime and Security the largest DNA database in the world. We have Bill announced in the Queen’s Speech. approximately 4.3 million profiles. That equates to 10 per We will need a lot of detailed debate, and I hope that cent. of the population of England and Wales, if one the hon. Lady will be permitted to sit as a member of breaks it down by the profiles that have been added by the Public Bill Committee, to contribute her experience police forces in England and Wales. One might have to the scrutiny. The issues that have been raised today thought that retaining all that data would result in a are the very ones that we shall need to drill down into, significant increase in the detection of crime—that, by in considering the detail of the Government’s proposals. virtue of the growth in DNA records and the amount of There has been a shift because of the S and Marper material held, there would be a growth in the number of judgment, but I would argue that it has not gone far cases solved, assuming that that is the driving factor. enough. In attempting to understand the Government’s However, the number of DNA detections for 2008-09 methodology and approach, we will have an interesting is 17,607. debate. In some ways we are starting that this afternoon, but it will continue. I hope that the continuing debate The Minister has argued in the past that the reduction will be well supported and that hon. Members will in the number of DNA detections is simply a consequence participate so that we can get the important scrutiny of a reduction in crime. First, I do not accept that and valid debate that we need in this place; so that we argument. Secondly, even if one did accept it, one can get a fair, reasonable and proportionate balance would still need to explain why the proportion of crimes between the interests of the state in preventing crime, detected by DNA has fallen: the figure two years ago and of the individual in terms of privacy and human was 0.76 per cent., and in the past year it was 0.67 per rights; and so that what Parliament does to reflect the cent. Similarly, the proportion of crimes detected in European Court judgment is appropriate. which a DNA match was available was 36.5 per cent. It was interesting to hear the continuation of the two years ago, and 32.4 per cent. last year. Therefore, I debate that the hon. Member for Chesterfield (Paul do not accept the argument that a reduction in DNA Holmes) and I have been having with the Minister. This detections is the result of a reduction in crime. So, is possibly the fourth occasion when we have had the something is happening here. pleasure of debating the issues. It is important, because I would be interested to know whether the Minister the issues are fundamental to the balance of the society has looked at the situation in Scotland, which operates we want to create. The Government and state approach, a different and much narrower system, but where DNA and the relationship of that to the individual, are starkly detections are higher than in England and Wales. Questions brought into focus by the issue of the retention of must be asked about the use of a blanket approach to DNA. Nothing is much more personal than the retention detect and solve crime and provide safety, because the of people’s genetic make-up by the state. detection rate—I stand to be challenged on this—seems I start in a position of consensus with the Government lower in England and Wales than it is in Scotland. That because I welcome the fact that they have at least raises some interesting questions. I do not make that acknowledged that the DNA itself—the base material—will point in a directly partisan way, but if we are trying to be kept for only a limited period. I think that they have use a more evidence-based approach, we need to understand said it will be for six months. Therefore, what will be why that system is more effective, as our sole purpose is retained on the DNA database will be a profile comprising, to detect and solve crime. effectively, lots of numbers that relate to the DNA that has been taken. At least the Government have accepted I was interested to read the Human Genetics that the human material shall be retained only for a Commission’s recent report, which noted: limited period. Then we get into the detail of retention “There is insufficient evidence at present to be able to say what of the profile, what the matching of a profile might use holding DNA profiled from different people is—this evidence mean, and whether the retention of that profile itself is urgently needed to support decisions about the scope of the for the time suggested is appropriate. database”. The retention of cellular samples is particularly intrusive I looked at the approach the Government started with, given the wealth of genetic and health information that prior to the S and Marper judgment, which obviously they contain. The use of the technology must involve still pervades today. It was interesting to note in the 121WH National DNA Database9 DECEMBER 2009 National DNA Database 122WH judgment that the Government’s policy was described Some interesting points come out of the document as not depending on innocence or guilt, which is clearly published by the Home Office to support its proposals, how we understand it. because it has attached various caveats to the analysis In a further submission in the course of that case, the that state that in measuring the graph, to try to support Government argued that the fingerprints and samples the justification, the lines are measured with some degree had been lawfully taken and that their retention is not of uncertainty.The banding, therefore, has a high potential related to the fact that the people involved were originally for error, which is reflected and represented in the suspected of committing a crime, document itself. The document states: “the sole reason for their retention being to increase the size and, “However, it should be remembered that this is an estimated therefore, the use of the database in identification of offenders in maximum which is based solely on a consideration of relative the future.” risks. Other considerations could result in an actual policy which is longer or shorter than six years—the evidence we present in this If there was a policy of simply growing the database for paper is not able to say what this final decision should be.” the sake of it, that is worrying, as we are starting to hear Therefore, in fairness, that document could not be said reports—I do not know how grounded they are—of to be in any way conclusive. Indeed, it suggests that police arresting people, allegedly for the purposes of after three years, the sharp dissipation in the hazard collecting DNA. curve starts to level off, which supports setting a limit at I welcome the fact that the Government, following the three-year point. Interestingly, even when one burrows the S and Marper judgment, appear to have recognised down into the detail of the evidence document the that the Big Brother approach is unacceptable. As a Home Office published alongside its proposals for a result, we now have the proposals that were originally six-year period, one does not find the robustness of put forward in the consultation documents published in approach that might be presented as supporting the the summer, as has been mentioned. That was reflected Home Office’s case. in the Home Secretary’s statement in November, as well We have several questions on the proposals in the as in the Crime and Security Bill, which will have Crime and Security Bill, which will be debated by the further consideration by the House. House in greater detail at a later date. However, before I It is odd that we got to that position, because, as the finish my speech, I have one question for the Minister hon. Member for Chesterfield rightly pointed out, we on the advice and consideration that the Home Office had, during the passage of the Policing and Crime Act has taken on the legality of the blanket, indiscriminate, 2009 in the previous Session, some heated debates about six-year period, which would not take into account the fact that the Government originally simply wanted any specific crime. The Equality and Human Rights to give a blank cheque and to deal with the matter Commission has written a letter to the Council of through statutory instrument and order-making power. Europe, stating of even the revised proposals: That was utterly unacceptable, and I am pleased that “This fails to address the Committee’s decision that 6 years for they brought forward primary legislation to address the non-serious offences lacks the required level of proportionality. valid and serious concerns of many hon. Members’ The Commission believes that treating adults in this category the about the use of such powers on a matter with such same regardless of type of offence is too indiscriminate and lacks substantive and significant implications for private life. the required level of proportionality. It does not comply with Committee of Ministers Recommendations Rec(92)1.” In his statement on 11 November, the Home Secretary It is important to put on the record what consideration said that, since the publication of the consultation the Government have given, even in introducing these document over the summer, the Home Office had proposals, to whether they are compliant with the terms “sought to further the evidence base through additional research.”— of the European convention on human rights. Indeed, I [Official Report, 11 November 2009; Vol. 499, c. 26WS.] believe that the Home Secretary’s statement in November We have heard that the research published alongside the implied that there was some question whether they were consultation document in the summer was not peer- compliant. He stated: reviewed, was premature and did not take the correct “Although the ECHR”— approach, and I think that the Home Office has accepted that that research did not provide the evidence base it the European Court of Human Rights— sought to procure. “suggested that the seriousness of the alleged offence should be a factor in determining what length of retention was proportionate, It would be interesting to hear what further analysis the best available evidence indicates that the type of offence a the Government have now undertaken, because I am person is first arrested for is not a good indicator of the seriousness aware of the document, “DNA retention policy: Re-arrest of offence he might subsequently be arrested for or convicted of hazard rate analysis”, which was published alongside in future.”—[Official Report, 11 November 2009; Vol. 499, c. 26WS.] the Home Secretary’s statement. I would be interested That statement was made by the Home Secretary. to hear from the Minister what the preparation of that We can, I am sure, have a detailed discussion about document involved. Is it an internal Home Office document, this in future, but it would be interesting to hear responses was there some external work conducted and, if so, who from the Minister on those specific points. My party conducted it and was it peer-reviewed? We must know takes a different view from the Government on the that so that we are not in the situation we were in before retention of DNA. We believe that the DNA profiles of in relation to the previous published analysis. What those arrested for a crime of violence or a sexual robustness has been attached to the document before us? offence could be retained for three years with a potential The approach the Government have sought to take to extension for a further two years if a court was satisfied justify the six-year period, I understand, is based on that that was appropriate. That proportionate approach that analysis document. The approach they have taken is similar to the one used in Scotland and was specifically is to try to match arrest rate to arrest rate and provide a recognised by the European Court in the S and Marper graph for how that applies to the population in general. judgment as being compliant with the convention. 123WH National DNA Database9 DECEMBER 2009 National DNA Database 124WH

[James Brokenshire] I have assured him on many occasions that that is not the case. The two key words are “balance” and We believe that it strikes an appropriate balance between “proportionality”. We need to strike a balance, and the interests of the state in seeking to solve crime and when there are various views from different bodies— protect the public, and the privacy interests of the scientists, the police, victims, Members of Parliament individual citizen. and the general public—the Government have to decide I look forward to continuing this important debate and make a judgment on where the balance actually lies. when the Government reintroduce their Crime and The difference between the hon. Gentleman and the Security Bill in the Commons in the new year, and I Government is that we would draw the line in different look forward to hearing the Minister’s response to some places. of the questions that have been raised this afternoon. Let me turn to some of the specific remarks. I promise to come back in the body of my evidence to the general remarks made by my hon. Friend the Member for 3.41 pm Hackney, North and Stoke Newington, in which she The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the again repeated the suggestion that being on the database Home Department (Mr. Alan Campbell): It is a pleasure somehow means that one is halfway guilty and halfway to serve under your chairmanship, Mr. Hancock. I innocent. Let me remind her that being on the database congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney, is proof of neither guilt nor innocence. In this country, North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott on securing the courts decide whether someone is guilty or innocent. this important and timely debate, given the wider debate However, I accept that for someone who has been that is taking place around DNA and the database. She arrested—that is the threshold that we use for taking will know that the matter formed part of the Policing DNA in this country—having their DNA taken may and Crime Bill but, unfortunately, not the Policing and leave them with the impression that somehow they have Crime Act 2009; however, it will be part of the Crime done wrong even though the courts have not found that. and Security Bill to be reintroduced shortly in Parliament. Let me begin with common ground. My hon. Friend Ms Abbott: My hon. Friend talks about stigma attached and I share the ambition of keeping the right people on to the database. He needs to come to one of the advice the database, but we clearly will not agree on who they surgeries that I run for innocent children whose names are or the best way to achieve that. In the time that I are on a database. Their anxious parents are very grateful have, I would like to address some of the particular to me, because that is when they hear for the first time points that have come up, and then address general that they can even do anything. I see nervous and points in the body of my remarks. frightened children who sometimes are not aware that their DNA has been taken for an indefinite period. I begin with the hon. Member for Chesterfield (Paul There may not be a legal stigma, but I tell him that, in Holmes). As the hon. Member for Hornchurch (James the eyes of the young people, parents and other people Brokenshire) said, we have locked horns on this issue in the community who have their DNA taken, there is a many times. As I understand it, the hon. Member for definite stigma attached to it. Chesterfield complains about a lack of evidence for the changes that we are proposing, and he hopes that we Mr. Campbell: And in the remarks that followed my will come back later with proposals based on better original point on this, that is exactly what I was saying. I research, yet his party’s policy proposes largely dismantling recognise that people may feel that there is a stigma, but what today we know as the DNA database. He quotes I am making the point for the record that it is not the the police in aid of his argument. I have not heard that DNA database that finds people guilty or innocent but argument from many police officers, and I caution him the courts. if he believes that that is the case. I thought that the hon. Gentleman’s comments about Jeremy Corbyn: My experience and knowledge of the safety and security of the DNA database were this is that young people are frequently arrested in particularly ill-judged. The people who keep it safe do a groups on the streets of any of our cities, particularly in remarkable job. I do not believe that he has any evidence the part of north London that my hon. Friend the of DNA data somehow being leaked from the database, Member for Hackney, North and Stoke Newington and and the suggestion that dedicated officers who work on I represent. They are questioned, DNA is taken, and the database would be tempted to sell data is as outrageous they are warned that the DNA will probably be kept for as it is ill-informed. all time. On many occasions, they are not subsequently charged but are let go. Sometimes, the police make the Paul Holmes: Of course, I said no such thing. What I arrests as a way of calming a situation down and said, in a discussion about the Government following diffusing a problem. That may be a reasonable police the logic of their arguments and having a DNA database tactic, but it is not reasonable then to take DNA evidence of 60-odd million people, was that the bigger a database which is difficult to remove from the database. At a later gets, the more chance there is, first, of mistakes, and, stage, the young person finds that they are on some secondly, of material getting out of the domain where it kind of list of suspects as far as the police are concerned should be into another domain, as we have seen with because there is a DNA record of them. many other databases. Mr. Campbell: I disagree with the final point in my Mr. Campbell: The assumption would be that that hon. Friend’s remarks. Earlier, he spoke about this has already happened and that the problem would get coming back to haunt people. I hope that people do not bigger. The other assumption is that we intend to have a go away with the impression that DNA is put to a wider universal database, but, as the hon. Gentleman knows, use than its actual purpose. I believe that he is referring 125WH National DNA Database9 DECEMBER 2009 National DNA Database 126WH to the point about removing DNA from the database compare my list against hers, but I want to put on and the guidance that is given, which I shall deal with in record the importance of the DNA database which, in a moment. the words of Chief Constable Sims, helps to detect On over-representation on the database of a particular 40,000 crimes a year. I shall give some brief examples. ethnic group—in short, the number of young men on Mark Dixie, who murdered Sally Anne Bowman, was the DNA database—I know that that has been a concern convicted as a result of DNA taken after he was arrested for some time, and I shall address the point in detail, following a pub brawl in 2006, and subsequently released but I wish to respond to a point that was at least alluded without charge. His DNA was found to match a sample to in earlier comments, that somehow there is indiscriminate found at the scene of Sally Anne’s murder, and he was collection of DNA, as recently headlined in the evidence subsequently charged, convicted and sentenced to life of one retired police officer. Let me put on the record imprisonment with a minimum term of 34 years. When that both the Home Office and the police have entirely we announced our proposals on DNA, Linda Bowman refuted the claims that were made. In fact, in reporting was reported to have said: them, even the newspaper distanced itself somewhat “Before this…announcement, it looked like the police would from them. Let me quote Chief Constable Chris Sims, have to destroy the DNA of anyone cleared of a crime.” who is the Association of Chief Police Officers lead on When welcoming our proposals, she said: DNA. He stated: “Holding DNA is a deterrent to criminals, right from those “The suggestion that using powers of arrest to obtain DNA committing common assault to savage murders.” has become routine policy is plainly wrong. The law around powers of arrest is very clear.” Paul Holmes: Does the Minister agree that Mark The police going further than they ought to would not Dixie was not convicted because his DNA was on the simply be about breaking the rules; it would, of course, database from some years ago when he had not been be tantamount to breaking the law. I will return to charged? Nine months after the murder, he was arrested proportionality and over-representation, but I wanted during a pub brawl, and his DNA was taken and run to make that point now. against the national database, so it is not an example of The point about removing people from databases was old DNA from an innocent person proving them guilty made forcibly, and as a Member of Parliament I understand years later. people’s ferocity about that. At the moment, removal is at the discretion of chief constables, because they own Mr. Campbell: Okay. Let me try this example for the the data, but in the Crime and Security Bill we are hon. Gentleman. Steve Wright murdered five prostitutes setting out the criteria for removal. Clause 14 will in Ipswich in 2003. A DNA sample was taken from him amend the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984, and when he was arrested on suspicion of theft. His DNA set down not just guidelines, but statutory criteria against profile subsequently matched DNA from the body of which individuals may have their profiles removed. I am one of the five women murdered in Ipswich in 2006. happy to go further, and to have a conversation about Wright was eventually charged with and convicted of whether there should be guidelines to be absolutely sure the five murders, and sentenced to life imprisonment. that chief constables know what their responsibilities The hon. Gentleman referred to the small number of are in that regard. cases in which DNA is appropriate. Let me add significant Jeremy Corbyn: Does the Minister anticipate that the cases, and let him make his case to the victims’ families, new guidelines will include guidelines on whether to because I assure him that their view is different. take DNA in the first place, particularly of young people who are often brought into custody for a short Ms Abbott: These dramatic cases are all very well and period? Is it necessary or proportionate to take such affecting, but the House is waiting to hear from Ministers DNA samples? the statistical basis to prove that keeping innocent people’s DNA solves so many crimes that the balance between Mr. Campbell: We are verging into territory where we privacy and civil liberties needs to be altered in the way must trust the police’s discretion in many ways. That the Government are suggesting. The Minister knows involves an argument that I want to develop later about that individual cases make hard law. what happens when young people come into contact with the criminal justice system, and the police are Mr. Campbell: Let me quote again Chris Sims, chief often at the front line of that. I prefer to deal with that constable of the west midlands who leads for ACPO on remark then. DNA. He said on 10 September that 40,000 crimes are I want to return to why we have a DNA database, matched every year, that the database is helping to keep which we are told is the biggest in the world. Of course, us safe, and that reducing the numbers on it will tip the we must be concerned about individual privacy, but the balance towards making people feel less safe. I pray database exists also to provide justice for victims and in aid that point, because he is giving the other side of their families. Without it, thousands of crimes would be the story. unsolved, and many serious and dangerous criminals would be walking our streets. Added to that is the Ms Abbott: Where is the research? deterrent effect if someone knows that they are on the DNA database and believes that they would be detected Mr. Campbell: I will come to the research in a moment. if they did something wrong. It can have a deterrent I pray in aid that point simply to show that it is plain effect. common sense that the further we diminish the database, My hon. Friend the Member for Hackney, North and the higher the number of crimes that might otherwise Stoke Newington listed a catalogue of all sorts of cases be solved but will not be solved. We must draw a line that may give rise to concern. I do not want simply to appropriately. 127WH National DNA Database 9 DECEMBER 2009 128WH

Paul Holmes: Will the Minister give way? Listed Sporting Events Mr. Campbell: I am running out of time, so I will not give way. 4pm We must strike a balance, and we consider that our Mr. Neil Turner (Wigan) (Lab): It is pleasure to be proposals in the Crime and Security Bill do just that. under your tutelage this afternoon, Mr. Hancock. It is There is a debate about so-called innocence, and I am also a pleasure to talk about the Davies report and the sure that we will return to that. rugby league challenge cup. Those of us in the rugby We have not plucked the period of six years at random. league community see the cup as extremely iconic, not There is not an enormous amount of evidence out there only for rugby league, but for sport in general. It is that we can bring to bear, but nor can the hon. Lady. We important that we give the Minister and his team in the commissioned evidence, and we are basing our proposals Department for Culture, Media and Sport some reasons on that evidence. On the best evidence available to us, why the rugby league challenge cup final should be on six years represents the period for which someone who the A- list, and remain free to view for the UK public. has been arrested once remains more likely than other The report was commissioned by the previous Secretary members of the public to be arrested again. of State for the DCMS, my right hon. Friend the In case the hon. Member for Hornchurch wants to Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham). Interestingly, he point out where that line is drawn, six years is a shorter was as surprised as the rest of us when it was concluded period, and the period of propensity to reoffend is that the rugby league challenge cup should be delisted, longer than six years. We believe that it is appropriate to and he put out a press release to that effect. I hope that retain material from those who have been arrested, but the current Secretary of State will take note of that, and not subsequently convicted, and that is not unique to that he will talk to his predecessor and take his views on this country; it applies in a number of countries throughout board. Europe. When the European Court of Human Rights The Secretary of State has indicated that there will be considered S and Marper, it noted those systems with a 12-week consultation on this matter. I hope that the approval, and agreed that the state can keep fingerprint Minister will give us more detail and put on the record and DNA information if it pursues the legitimate purpose the way in which members of the public can have some of detection and, therefore, prevention of crime. The input in the consultation, as it is not immediately clear— question is: where is proportionality? perhaps it would be helpful to have an e-mail address or Let me turn briefly to over-representation. The DNA whatever. One of the surprising things in the Davies database is not self-populating. Before someone’s profile report, and in the report by Frontier Economics which can be added, that person must have been arrested for a went with it, was the paucity of public input in the recordable offence, and that arrest must have been consultation. necessary in law. That is a significant threshold. The The Davies report asked Frontier Economics to do a problem is that over-representation of any group in the background report, which is a detailed read that gives a rest of the criminal justice system is likely to be reflected lot of background information about how people view on the DNA database. Our work to look at over- sport on television, and whether or not they have access representation of particular groups in the criminal justice to TV sport on satellite and so on for which they pay, or system is particularly important. Just focusing on the on a free-to-view service. It is an impressive document, DNA database, which is somewhat upstream, is interesting, which the Davies report, quite properly, draws on. but the reality is that we need to make changes further downstream. We need to know why certain groups I have also read the Davies report, which is interesting coming into contact with the criminal justice system are to say the least. However, one of the things that it did being arrested and having their DNA taken, which was not do well, was interview sports bodies. There were the point raised by the hon. Member for Hornchurch. interviews and so on, but when representatives from rugby league came along, only three out of the eight Jeremy Corbyn: But not charged. members of the Davies committee were at the interview. We understand that people who do those kinds of Mr. Campbell: But not charged. However, if the things do so on a voluntary basis and have other interests. profiles of those who are arrested but not convicted are Nevertheless, when looking at something this important, not kept, a significant group of people who are statistically it is not good to have less than half of the people more likely than the rest of the population to offend available. That was not true only for the rugby league within the following six years will be removed from the presentation. I understand that a presentation was also database. That is the balance that we must strike between made by the English Cricket Board, and that only four people’s privacy and the right of the rest of society to members of the committee were present. There are keep itself and others safe. some difficulties regarding the legitimacy of the report and its conclusions when only a small number of people Turning to the point about children—the European were present. Court made special reference to children—I want to point out to my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney, Paragraph 156 of the Davies report states: North and Stoke Newington that we have taken account “The Panel accepted that sports governing bodies should be of what the Court said. There are different proposals best placed to know what was in the best interests of their sport for children— now and for the future.” If the members of the committee think that the best Mr. Mike Hancock (in the Chair):Order.Wemust thing to do is to talk to the sports bodies, it is incumbent move on to the next debate. on them to turn up, listen to and question any points that are made. 129WH Listed Sporting Events9 DECEMBER 2009 Listed Sporting Events 130WH

Another point that is made in the report is about the the B-list, no respondents wanted that to happen. When access that people in this country have to pay TV.There asked whether some events should be moved from the is not a lot of difference by social class—roughly 50 per B- list to the A-list, so that they would be shown on cent. of people in all social classes have access to pay free-to-air TV, four people said that the rugby league TV, give or take 5 per cent. either way. However, among challenge cup should be shown in full, rather than as people whose income is less than £11,500, there is a big highlights. They were saying that they wanted to see drop, and the figure for pay TV goes down to below games all the way through, not just the highlights of 15 per cent. on average. The other important factor is games. Of the 136 people who responded to question that although there is not much variation between different 9d, only three—or 2.2 per cent.—said that the challenge age groups, if we look at those aged 75 or over, less than cup should be moved. Not only would none of us be 30 per cent. have access to pay TV. Taking the rugby elected on 2.2 per cent., but none of us would retain our league challenge cup final out of free-to-air viewing deposits. would exclude a lot of people who are currently able to The committee went on to consider what the criteria watch that iconic sporting event. should say. Paragraph 138 says that there should be The report provides some detail about the differences some amendments to the criteria. Paragraph 154 also in the viewing figures for the challenge cup, which is free refers to what they should look like. I will not read them to air, and those for the grand final, which is on Sky TV. all out, but paragraph 138 states that a relevant event I have no objection to Sky TV. It does a superb job and should be has improved the way in which television portrays our “a pre-eminent national or international event in sport”, sport, and other sports. It has raised the profile of the should involve sport, and developed the ability of TV to make sporting events more iconic, available and interesting for the “the national team or national representatives in the sport concerned” viewers. This is not an attack on Sky TV—far from it; it and should does an extremely good job. However, the number of “be likely to command a large television audience.” people who watched the challenge cup final on free-to-air Paragraph 154 states that the panel concluded that TV was six times the number who watched the grand final. Anybody who knows rugby league knows that the “the ‘other factors’ in the current criteria that the Secretary of State may take into account—including the potential impact grand final is the epitome and pinnacle of the rugby of listing on the income to a sport—should not strictly form part league season. It is when the two best teams play each of the criteria for listing, but were matters for the Secretary of other—knock-out competitions tend to be a little more State to the extent that it is appropriate for him to take them into open, and depend on the way in which the balls come account”. out of the hat. If only a sixth of those who watch the I am sure that that sounded good in the original double challenge cup can watch the grand final, that tells us Dutch, but it does give some indication that the Secretary something about the issue. of State has a little leeway. Frontier Economics has tried to analyse the effects There is no definition in the Davies report of what on the sport, but it largely looks at the financial impact. the criteria that were set out mean in practice. That is It does not look at the real issues that people in rugby important. I know that other hon. Members want to league want to know about. That misses the point, not speak, so I shall just give what I think are the major only for rugby league but for all sports—the super reasons why the rugby league challenge cup should be league, the Ashes, Wimbledon, and so on. All those included and why the Secretary of State should not take events are at the very pinnacle of sport, but below them, account of the Davies report’s recommendations. there is a huge base of people who play or have played sport, and who are interested in it. That is an important The most important reason is the community nature point, which I shall return to later. of our sport. I do not think that there is another professional sport anywhere in the UK with the community As I said, the committee consulted the public. base that rugby league has. It goes right the way down. Surprisingly, only 148 people responded. I say All of us here could name teams in our areas whose “surprisingly”, but I am not all that surprised. I did not players play rugby league from the age of five right the know that the public were being asked, as I might have way through. Although that is also the case in other put in a recommendation or said something about the sports, there is a difference. I remember that in the issue. However, there were only 148 responses, which is 1980s and ’90s, we had Steve Hampton, Joe Lydon, very poor. That is why it is important that in his Shaun Edwards and Andy Gregory playing for what response, the Minister gives us some idea of how people was probably the greatest rugby league team around—not can respond to the consultation process that he will just then, but before or since. They played for a Wigan undertake. team and were all born and brought up in Wigan. If we Let us look at some of the details. Sixty-two people look at the current Wigan team, we see Sam Tomkins, responded to question 12, which asked what the most Joel Tomkins, Gareth Hock and so on. Right the way important issue was for them. Of those respondents, through that Wigan team are players who were born 12 people—the largest group—said that affordability and brought up in Wigan, and that would be the same was important. That goes back to my earlier point in Leeds, Bradford and Widnes. All those players come about those people on low incomes and the over-75s. right the way through, and it is very important that we We risk excluding a lot of those people, and that is what have that community that feeds up into the challenge most of the respondents were concerned about. cup final. In question 9b, the majority of those who responded said that they wanted no change whatsoever to the Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab) rose— listing process. When asked whether the rugby league challenge cup final should be moved from the A-list to Mr. Mike Hancock (in the Chair): Stephen Twigg. 131WH Listed Sporting Events9 DECEMBER 2009 Listed Sporting Events 132WH

Derek Twigg: Derek Twigg, even. I am sure he will in this event? If you could keep your comments to a minimum, the Minister will have enough Mr. Mike Hancock (in the Chair): Sorry. The ball time to respond to any points that you want to make went through my hands there, Mr. Twigg. and to those of your colleagues.

Derek Twigg: Can I put this point to my hon. Friend 4.17 pm the Member for Wigan (Mr. Turner)? He is making an excellent and very powerful speech. It is a disgrace even Mr. Lindsay Hoyle (Chorley) (Lab): Thank you for to suggest the change that we are discussing. He has that advice, Mr. Hancock. Obviously, in rugby league, made strong arguments about that. At a time when we we have a thing called a yellow card, so if I get two have seen criticism of footballers, cheating and everything yellow cards, I will know that I have to sit down. else, here we have a sport whose players are known for Allowing for that, may I first say thank you to my their courage, tenacity, skills and, above all, honesty. Is constituency neighbour, my hon. Friend the Member that not exactly the sort of sport that we should be for Wigan (Mr. Turner)? He has put forward the reasons projecting to a much wider audience? for his argument extremely eloquently. He has explained that the case is so strong that there can be no other Mr. Turner: I am very grateful for that intervention. decision than keeping rugby league in the A list. That is My hon. Friend has probably pinched about three what this is about. As he set out, it seems absurd that a seconds of my speech, but that is neither here nor there committee sits with less than 50 per cent. attendance to because I fully agree with him. The point that he makes make a decision to take rugby league off the A list—off is very important. In rugby league, most of the players free-to-air television. I would have thought that common come from quite deprived backgrounds. Many of them sense would have prevailed on the idea that the greatest do not have the family discipline that perhaps exists in sport in the world, with one of the finest cup finals to be other families, but going into rugby league gives them played at Wembley, could not be on free-to-view television that discipline. It gives them the personal satisfaction of in the future. That is unacceptable. I know that my hon. achieving excellence in speed, skill, ball-handling ability Friend the Minister, rocking back on his chair, recognises and so on. Also, if someone makes a mistake and a the sport and how great the game is. It will be a crying penalty is awarded against them, it is 10 metres, and shame if suddenly the Davies report is accepted. We that is 10 metres that the forwards have to get back and need the decision to be reversed, and reversed quickly. they do not like it. They tell their colleagues, “You stop We need to lift that uncertainty. giving away penalties.”If someone is sent off or sin-binned, Of course, Sky has done a lot for rugby league. I have the whole team get battered for that. I think that my to say that I was the only person at the rugby league hon. Friend’s point was about that peer group discipline. meeting in Wigan who did not vote for Sky. I hold my Equally, the respect that the officials receive in rugby hands up and say that at that meeting, when Sky came league is paramount. That applies to rugby union as with the big cheque book, I was the only one who stood well; we should be fair about that. In rugby, nobody up and did not accept the Sky money, because my questions the decisions of the officials, which is absolutely commitment is to free-to-view television. right. That self-discipline comes from playing the game; people have an understanding of how to talk to officials Mr. David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab): My hon. Friend and so on. I remember going to two games at the is right when he says that Sky has done a lot for rugby Millennium stadium. One was Wigan Athletic against league. Does he not really believe, though, that Sky has Manchester United in the Carling cup. There was done a lot for Sky? That is what this debate is about. It segregation. There were police all over the place. There wants to do even more for Sky by taking this cup final was no trouble, as it happened; nevertheless, there was away. We should not allow that. that anticipation. I then went to watch Wigan Warriors playing St. Helens. There were no police about. There Mr. Mike Hancock (in the Chair): That is a bit of a was no segregation. Alcohol was freely available. It was wet ball, but back to you, Mr. Hoyle. a great atmosphere and a great day. The difference between the two comes from the community spirit that Mr. Hoyle: I totally agree. My differences with Sky in flows all the way through the game of rugby. It is relation to rugby league were many years ago. The one important that the rugby league challenge cup is on thing that I have always been committed to is the game free-to-air television so that we can project that to the of rugby league. I will always remain strongly supportive nation. We can do that by having the schools, which of the game at both amateur and professional level. provide the usual opener to our game, there and we can This is about balance. Sky is doing the championship show what our game can do for the individual, for sport games; it is doing the premiership and the super league. and for rugby league. It is important that when the Every week, it is rolling out good matches and good Secretary of State finishes his consultation—we shall coverage. However, when it comes to the cup final, the ensure that he gets many more than the 148 people exciting part, bringing teams together, we must ensure responding in the first instance—he takes that on board that the finest game in the world is available on free-to-view and ensures that the rugby league challenge cup final is television. free to air so that everybody can see it. I cannot express that passion enough to the Minister. We must get that message across. Rugby league is one Mr. Lindsay Hoyle (Chorley) (Lab) rose— big family, whether we are talking about the members of the family in Australia or the national game of Mr. Mike Hancock (in the Chair): Can I ask you, Papua New Guinea. Wherever it is in the world, rugby Mr. Hoyle, to be fair and to respect the referee’s decision league is united on one thing: it is a great sport, a family to give the Minister time to give you the good news that sport, a sport to which we can all be committed. Do not 133WH Listed Sporting Events9 DECEMBER 2009 Listed Sporting Events 134WH throw the baby out with the bathwater by making the digital technologies and the changes to the broadcasting wrong decision. We educate people in the south by environment there are far more channels and far more showing the game live from Wembley, so do not allow ways to watch sporting events. In addition, subscription’s that to go. The finest experience that I have had this place in the broadcasting economy is completely different season has been that of my father walking out at from what it was. To take account of all those developments, Wembley, leading Warrington out and coming back to the Government set up an independent advisory panel Warrington with the challenge cup. There is no finer to review the free-to-air events regime and make experience that I could have. Chorley Panthers had the recommendations to the Secretary of State. Tomkins brothers there, so we are a good feeder club to Wigan, and long may that continue. Once again, I Mr. Hoyle: Does the Minister not agree that less than thank my hon. Friend the Member for Wigan for ensuring 50 per cent. of the panel turning up to hear the evidence that this debate is taking place, and that we get the right represents a failure? decision. I can see how serious the matter is when I look behind the Minister and see that he has four officials Mr. Simon: Before I could make such a judgment, I sitting there writing, recognising that rugby league must would need more evidence than the second-hand anecdotes remain. Thank you very much. we have had about two meetings—

Mr. Mike Hancock (in the Chair): Thank you very Mr. Hoyle: But what if what I said was correct? much indeed, Mr. Hoyle, for a spirited contribution. I now give the floor to the Minister—follow that. Mr. Simon: We will look at the evidence if that ever becomes an issue, but it is not something that we should 4.20 pm get hung up on. Let me return to the details that my hon. Friend the Member for Wigan asked for, of the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, review process and how it has gone. Media and Sport (Mr. Siôn Simon): I will do my best, David Davies chaired the panel and was asked to Mr. Hancock. It is a pleasure to serve under your review three areas: the principle of having a list, the chairmanship. I hope that we will not be interrupted by criteria against which events are listed, and the content a vote, but I slightly fear that we might. of any list. It was recognised that the widest possible I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Wigan range of views needed to be taken. As my hon. Friend (Mr. Turner) on securing the debate and for his magnificent the Member for Wigan said, the panel commissioned contribution. He is like a shaggy bearded lion of the research. It undertook a public consultation from 8 April rugby league world, and is ably assisted in his exhortations to 20 July, and wrote to 187 sporting, media, broadcasting, by his hon. Friends from the rest of the north-west. viewer and other organisations, inviting them to participate, and some of those organisations had meeting with Mr. Neil Turner: And Yorkshire and the north-east. members of the panel. Not every member of the panel attended every meeting, as has been noted, but I do not Mr. Simon: Indeed. I am minded to note that the last doubt that there will have been consistency of membership. time there was a listed events review was in 1998, which Others of those organisations made submissions in was, I think, also the last time that the rugby league writing. Perhaps not every member on every occasion, challenge cup final was won by Wigan Warriors. No, but the panel as an entity visited the Scottish Parliament that was the super league grand final win. and the Welsh Assembly, arranged a joint meeting of I begin by reaffirming the Government’s view that we the all-party media and sports groups, and generally recognise the importance of ensuring that as many put itself about and talked to as many people as possible. people as possible have the opportunity to enjoy our most important sporting events on free-to-air TV. We Greg Mulholland (Leeds, North-West) (LD): The Minister all recognise that sport is a central part of the national will not know this, but it would be interesting to find fabric, of our national identity, and of what makes up out how many of the panel have been to a challenge cup the kind of society we are. As my hon. Friend the final. I wonder whether the Minister himself has been Member for Chorley (Mr. Hoyle) said, nothing can to one. All of us who go and see the very large crowd at quite replicate the excitement and the passion that can that fantastic occasion simply cannot understand the be generated by our great sporting events. Only last decision. We also think that there is a blind spot. The year, we saw the passion that surrounded British participants Minister probably does not realise that Leeds Rhinos in the Olympics and the Paralympics, next year we will regularly have the biggest average crowds of any rugby have the World cup in South Africa, and in 2012 we will club in the country. Rugby is a popular spectator sport, have the Olympics in London. We want to ensure—there but that is not being reflected. will be no doubt about it—that those kinds of national and centrally important sporting events— Mr. Simon: The hon. Gentleman makes that point very well. I cannot speak for the proclivities of the Mr. Neil Turner: May I remind the Minister that in panel. Having grown up in a Welsh family, I was taught 2013 we will have the rugby league world cup as well? early the other way, in rugby terms, and then went to the only grammar school in Birmingham where they Mr. Simon: I did not mention that myself only because played only football, not rugby. So, no, I have never I wanted to give one of the hon. Gentlemen the opportunity been to a rugby league challenge cup final, although if to intervene and put it on the record. the hon. Gentleman is inviting me, I would love to go. I have said why we have listed events. The decision to The panel reached clear conclusions as to the criterion review the listed events was based on a range of factors, that should be used in determining whether an event partly on the recognition that with the development of should be listed—the major event test. I am conscious 135WH Listed Sporting Events 9 DECEMBER 2009 136WH

[Mr. Simon] British Forces Post Office that I have only three minutes left, so I will not read out 4.30 pm the definition of a major event but will move on to the Secretary of State’s provisional conclusions. Sandra Gidley (Romsey) (LD): I raise a subject today The Secretary of State provisionally—I do not just that is not much talked about. In recent weeks and emphasise that word with my voice; it is underlined on months, we have become used to our armed forces the piece of paper—concluded that he was minded to making the news. Much focus is given, and rightly so, to recommend that the recommendations be accepted. what is happening in our theatres of operation. Today, Those recommendations were, first, that there should in however, I want to concentrate on something that will principle be a list; secondly, that the major event test affect many military families—the proposed changes to should be a key criterion in drawing up the list; and some of the postal services. I also wish to talk about thirdly, to accept the view that the events identified postal services to Afghanistan. passed the major event test. The Secretary of State I know from personal experience that the British considers that the panel has come forward with a persuasive Forces Post Office has for many years provided a vital set of reasons, and he agrees that as many people as link between forces personnel and their immediate families, possible should have as much access as possible to and wider friends and families. The service was cheap, events of major importance. We are particularly and it was certainly efficient; I assume that nothing has concerned—my hon. Friend the Member for Wigan changed. It was always highly valued by those who raised this concern—about the ability of people on a sometimes felt a long way from home. It is worth noting low income to access subscriber services. They might a little of its history. otherwise be excluded from these nationally important In 1808, during the peninsular war, the first Army events. We believe that listed events are part of our post office was put into operation. It was followed national identity, but we are also clear that the panel during the first Chinese war in 1840 with another Army expressed no view and took no account of the impact or post office. In 1882, Queen Victoria authorised the consequences on the sport or sporting body of the formation of the Army Post Office Corps to serve listing, stating that it considered that such matters were during the Egyptian and Sudanese campaigns. A number for the Secretary of State to take into account. of reorganisations took place—it is not a modern fad, Our provisional conclusion is, therefore, that the final as we often think—but eventually the Royal Engineers decision should take account of the possible impacts—not (Postal Section) was formed. looked at by the report—that such listing might have on That organisation served during the first world war in the sport or the event in question. We therefore consider France, Belgium, the Dardanelles, Egypt, Palestine, east that the major event test needs to be accompanied by an Africa, Greece, Italy and north Russia. The ingenuity of impact assessment. That will involve considering any the personnel was unlimited. As well as being transported matters relating to the impacts of listing that are drawn by conventional means, mail was transported by mule, to the Secretary of State’s attention, then assessing sleigh, trawler, minesweeper—in fact, by any form whether listing would have a disproportionate impact of available transport. That is an example of the on the interests of those adversely affected by resourcefulness of the organisation, which has always it—[Interruption.] My hon. Friend the Member for given high priority to getting messages to the troops. Chorley is willing me on. Having reached his provisional In March 1919, the first regular airmail service from conclusions, the Secretary of State is required to carry Folkestone to Cologne was set up to provide British out a statutory consultation with the broadcasting troops in Germany with a fast mail service. It was the authorities in line with the Broadcasting Act 1996. I am world’s first scheduled airmail service. Due to its success, trying to conclude as quickly as possible before the time the model was adopted by civil post offices worldwide. I runs out. There is a consultation that runs until March. could spend 15 minutes recounting the development of As part of that consultation— the forces postal service. The organisation’s history of resourcefulness and its ability to adapt over the years to Mr. Mike Hancock (in the Chair): Order. I am sorry ensure that our troops had access to the biggest morale Minister, but despite playing a blinder you have been booster of all—mail from home—is second to none. beaten by the clock. However, it was with some consternation that I learned We now move on to the next debate. However, I point of plans to close 12 of the forces post offices. The out to the Minister and the hon. Member for Romsey offices destined for closure are those providing support— (Sandra Gidley) that we expect Divisions in the House [Interruption.] at any moment. I leave it to you to decide whether you want come back between votes—I understand that Mr. Mike Hancock (in the Chair): Order. There is a there will a series of them. That would make for a Division in the House. I am in your hands. You may disjointed debate, but we could suspend the sitting for prefer to come back after you have voted, so that we can an appropriate period. move straight away, so that when the three of us are back here we can recommence. We will adjourn for an appropriate time.

4.34 pm Sitting suspended for Divisions in the House.

5.6 pm On resuming— 137WH British Forces Post Office9 DECEMBER 2009 British Forces Post Office 138WH

Sandra Gidley: Hopefully, I will have a clear run to 100 grams for 39p; hopefully, the Minister can confirm the end of the debate. that that will continue. However, if they want to send a The offices destined for closure are those providing small letter-type package of just over 100 grams, the support to the UK elements of NATO headquarters. picture changes. The current BFPO cost is 90p, but Now, I must declare a small interest here. the cost of sending a similarly sized package through the Italian premium mail service—I do not think that Mr. Lindsay Hoyle (Chorley) (Lab): I want to anyone with experience of the Italian postal service congratulate the hon. Lady on securing a very important would risk paying less for the slower service—ranges debate. Quite rightly, she spelled out the importance of from just over £1 to more than £1.50. To some, that boosting morale, and the morale-booster is getting the might not seem like a huge difference, but costs mount mail there, never more so than getting mail to the front up over the course of a year. In Norway, at BFPO 50, line of theatre. I think that she would agree with me that the costs are even higher: it costs about £4 to send a what we need from the Minister, when he gives his letter of just over 100 grams to the UK. Costs are even winding-up speech, is confirmation that the theatre will higher for personnel based in the USA. The situation not be affected and that that vital link between families, gets worse when applied to parcels, as the cost of friends, sweethearts or whatever they may be will continue, sending some of them will double. that mail will always get there and that we always ought It could be argued that gift vouchers and so on can be to see if we can get more. Does she agree? used, but people like to receive personal gifts. There is another side to it as well. Despite the best efforts of the Sandra Gidley: I could not possibly disagree with the NAAFI, there is always something from home that hon. Gentleman. I know that he has to rush off, but if people living in another country yearn for. UK-based he stayed to hear the end of my speech he would hear families often make up packages of such sought-after me return to that issue very forcefully. As I probably items and post them. That, too, will cost more in future, hinted in my historical comments, this issue was very and even if a small adjustment is made to the cost-of-living important and it remains so to this day; it may even be allowance for those based abroad, it will not be extended more important now, so I thank him for his intervention. to families in the UK who send things to our forces. My small interest in this area centres on the fact that There are also broader concerns. It is now widely one of the BFPO numbers that will be affected—well, accepted that there will be less money in future to spend the number will exist, but the post office will close—is on public services and that all organisations will look BFPO 28, which serves Brunssum in the Netherlands. for efficiency savings. The UK has other overseas postings, For a couple of years, that was my number and my and many personnel are still based in Germany. Will the address, so that I could keep in touch with my teenage Minister give me an assurance today that there will be friends back in England. The service was effectively no further slash and burn of BFPO services? Currently, subsidised, so it was cheap to use and, as I said earlier, it 23,000 personnel are based in Germany, and they could was efficient. be looking at NATO’s savings with some trepidation. Teenagers today probably use a home personal computer, I also want to use this opportunity to mention those and the art of letter-writing is dying out somewhat. who send cards, gifts and letters to our troops in However, when I was a teenager, I had to write to my Afghanistan. Military personnel at the sharp end granny—well, I wanted to write to my granny. As we all acknowledge that troops on the ground appreciate support know, granny is less likely to have a computer, so we from back home, but mountains of well-intentioned should not lose sight of the range of people with whom mail can cause difficulties that outweigh the benefits. a forces family will want to keep in touch. The postal Mail from friends and family—the packages that have mechanisms are not just available to the forces themselves, the greatest effect on morale—can be delayed significantly. but to those responding to the letters. If someone does not receive something from their family, The forces have always tried to adapt to changing they might become concerned that something is wrong, times. There is now a system for something known as which could obviously detract from their day job. the e-bluey. Letters are e-mailed directly to the BFPO, The onward delivery of good-will parcels to forward which then dispatches them via the traditional postal operating bases necessitates additional supply flights system. Obviously, such developments are welcome. My and convoys, which the Ministry of Defence says puts understanding is that the BPFO numbers themselves our personnel at greater risk every time an extra convoy will be retained, but the forces post offices will be closed is added. I am sure that nobody sending a parcel would and only a limited postal receipt and dispatch facility want the troops to be put at greater risk. The MOD is will be left. There will no longer be a facility to send keen to ensure that members of the public who wish to parcels to the UK, although it will still be possible to support British service personnel can do so, and I receive parcels. understand that a list of recommended service charities One of the biggest drawbacks of the proposed system has been drawn up. is that the over-the-counter post office services will The standard advice seems to be that if someone cease and for services outside basic mail provision, wants to help, they should donate to one of the charities. forces personnel and their dependants will use the relevant The preferred charity appears to be the Soldiers, Sailors, international mail system. That will invariably mean Airmen and Families Association, which has a long that people will have to pay more to send parcels and record of work in supporting our troops. I do not wish they will also have to depend on the vagaries of less to deter people from sending money to that worthwhile efficient postal systems. We sometimes knock the British charity, but it is important for some people to feel that postal system, but in comparison with other systems it they are making or doing something practical. They is very good. Currently, for example, someone at BFPO might not have huge amounts of money and might 8 in Naples can send a BFPO letter weighing up to think that what little they have is best given in the form 139WH British Forces Post Office9 DECEMBER 2009 British Forces Post Office 140WH

[Sandra Gidley] doing their duty for our country, but I feel somehow that that is insufficient, and I want to do more. That is of a personalised gift. There are also troops who are not exactly how many people feel who have sent or want to in touch with their families and do not receive anything send parcels to our troops. from loved ones. For them, a parcel must be a morale booster, whoever it is from. Many members of the 5.17 pm public who want to do something might not be aware of the warning not to send parcels. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr. Kevan Jones): I congratulate the hon. Member for I decided to google the subject. Typing in the keywords Romsey (Sandra Gidley) on securing this debate. The “parcels”, “soldiers” and “Afghanistan” produced the British Forces Post Office provides official and private following results. The top link was to a charity called mail services for Her Majesty’s forces and their dependants Support our Soldiers, which—guess what—sends parcels worldwide and within the establishment in the UK. I to troops, except that it now says that it cannot accept am aware that mail is a major contributor to morale, as more gifts, only money. The second link was to a story she suggests, and ensuring that mail gets to our servicemen about Joanne Goody-Orris and her partner Maurice and women is a key priority. Benton, two pensioners who have been sending parcels for some time and have received many letters of thanks I will start by distinguishing between the operational from grateful service personnel. The third hit mentioned theatre, which is what the hon. Lady was referring to, a scheme in Otley, and the fourth a woman named and overseas permanent bases. Operational theatres are Maria Wood, described as Father Christmas to the supported by our Enduring Free mail service. I would troops. The fifth concerned Karen Brittle from Orford, like to put it on record that, contrary to what appears a similarly public-spirited individual. The sixth described on some websites, the changes that we are making to the a campaign last summer by the Dorset Echo, the seventh BFPO will not affect the Enduring Free mail service was a Yahoo! discussion of what to include in parcels to our troops on operations. There will be no change to and the eighth was a link to the Birmingham Mail. that service at all. It is a top priority for the Ministry of Defence to ensure that our servicemen and women in I could go on, but I think that the Minister gets the Afghanistan get the mail and support that they need gist. The information available is not terribly relevant to from their families. We recognise how important it is for what is happening on the ground. No helpful guidance them to get messages from home. exists on the best way to help our troops. It is probably We have made great strides, as the hon. Lady suggests. too late to make a difference this year, but in all likelihood, One of the most popular ways to communicate now is our troops will be in Afghanistan for the foreseeable the e-bluey, which is used increasingly to send not just future. An interested and engaged public will continue letters but photographs and, as I saw a few weeks ago in to want to help and show their support in the most Afghanistan, items such as a five-year-old’s paintings practical and personal way possible. from school. It is a big morale booster for soldiers to My plea is this. It should not be beyond the wit of the receive personalised mail, and service usage has gone MOD to ensure that the first Google hit gives official from 30,000 items a month less than three years ago to advice, tells people the best way to help and directs well over 100,000. them to approved charities. I urge the Minister to do so On the changes we are making, I do not recognise the in order to help people make the most of their efforts. description of the slash and burn of our overseas post My second suggestion might require a little more work. offices, although I recognise that the Liberal Democrats I hope that the MOD will like it; it could work with a are prone to using emotive language. We are changing charity to see whether the idea can be developed. When 10 locations in Europe and one in the US NATO people support Oxfam, for example, they can make a headquarters: at Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers donation to buy mosquito nets or a goat. I am not Europe, Brussels, Brunssum, Ramstein, Stavanger, Karup, suggesting that we send goats to our troops in Afghanistan, Rome, Milan, Lisbon and Valencia; and Norfolk, Virginia but in preparing for this debate, I became aware that in the United States. Clearly, those are not operational many of them find certain small pieces of gadgetry locations, but are in first-world countries that have useful, such as a wind-up torch. A member of the sophisticated and modern postal services. public could go to a website and decide whether to fund As a result of the proposed changes, a limited postal a wind-up torch or another gift, and their name could receipt and dispatch facility will be maintained, but the become associated with that gift. They could also name over-the-counter postal service will end. There will no a recipient or group of recipients, because one reason longer be a facility to send parcels back to the UK, but why people want to give tangible things is that they it will be possible for people to receive them. That will want the soldiers to know that they are in their thoughts. save about £1.3 million a year. As the hon. Lady knows, A physical gift makes that knowledge much more real, we are trying to free up as much money as possible for and such a gift could be seen to benefit a real person the front line. I think that we can introduce this efficiency instead of being swallowed up by an anonymous charity without adversely affecting the service. We have consulted pot. People are not always sure where the money goes. the three armed forces federations and I put on record It seems to be a relatively simple idea that could my thanks to them for their input into the review. work. It would relieve the strain on the system while Although the over-the-counter services will cease, people making people feel that they were giving something at the sites will retain their BFPO numbers, which is tangible, and the soldier would receive a real gift. I hope important in banking, applying for credit, internet shopping that the Minister will want to do it. It would usefully and voter registration. channel the efforts of the many people who want to do For services outside BFPO provision, the international their bit to help. I shall end my remarks by thanking all mail system that is used by business and the public to those who will be away from their families this Christmas send letters in Europe and the US will be available. The 141WH British Forces Post Office9 DECEMBER 2009 British Forces Post Office 142WH hon. Lady mentioned the increased cost of sending mail can acknowledge the other. That would help to humanise using the international postal service, but the overseas the process. The fundamental point is that the Ministry allowance will change to cover that increase. I do not of Defence produced this advice, but it is difficult to see the changes as draconian, but as maintaining the access. Not everybody would have heard the news on service in an efficient way. the particular day that it was announced. A lot of On operational post, the enduring free mail service people are still not aware of the message that there are has been popular and it is important for morale to more appropriate ways of giving. ensure that servicemen and women receive regular packages of mail from home. I was in Afghanistan two weeks ago Mr. Jones: I accept the hon. Lady’s good intentions, and know the importance that our servicemen and but if the system is overcomplicated, it will be difficult women—especially those at forward operating bases—place to get the information out. I think that getting the on receiving mail from home. money in and deciding on a case-by-case basis what people require, through talking to local commanders, is Like the hon. Lady, I do not want to discourage the a better way of doing it. If people want to make generosity of the British public in supporting our servicemen donations, they can do so by visiting www.bmycharity.com. and women. However, there is a problem of unsolicited I urge everyone who wants to support our troops to give mail. I was in the post office in Kandahar two weeks money rather than send parcels. ago. The lady who ran it said that up to 30 per cent. of the packages received were unsolicited mail. Her concern The hon. Lady referred to servicemen and women was that at Christmas, when it is important that mail who might not have family sending parcels to them. We from home gets to people’s loved ones, the unsolicited support—and encourage others to support—Support mail was clogging up the system. Some of the items that Our Soldiers and Thank The Forces. Last week, I people send are a little inappropriate, to say the least. launched this year’s uk4u Thanks! Christmas boxes, For example, our search dogs do not need dog food and which contain some of the practical equipment that she the soldiers do not need cat food for local cats in the mentioned. That is manageable and should be supported. villages in which they are stationed. I accept that people There are ways to give. I use this debate to again get the send such things out of the best of intentions. message out not to send unsolicited mail to our servicemen and women. If people can give, please will they give If people wish to support our servicemen and women, generously to the charities that support our servicemen we ask them to support SSAFA Forces Help and the and women? operational welfare fund. The operational welfare fund does not work exactly as the hon. Lady described, but it The changes are practical and will ensure that we does provide electronic kit for people in theatre. For have a cost-effective system of providing for and supporting example, laptop projectors were recently provided at our servicemen and women, whether they are on operations one of the FOBs, so that people could watch films. or in non-operational bases across the world. I urge Therefore, there are examples of the cash that is given people to look in detail at what we are doing, rather being turned into direct help and providing benefits than just reading the headlines that have been written that people welcome. on certain websites in the last few months. Question put and agreed to. Sandra Gidley: I was suggesting an extension of that scheme, which is the right method. A link should be 5.27 pm created between the giver and the recipient so that one Sitting adjourned.

21WS Written Ministerial Statements9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 22WS

Those newly brought into the regime will be subject Written Ministerial to the special annual allowance, which remains unchanged. This means that they will continue to receive higher rate Statements relief up to the level of their normal (defined as quarterly or more regular) pension contributions; or the lower of £30,000 and average contributions over the past three Wednesday 9 December 2009 years if contributions are less regular than quarterly; or £20,000; whichever is highest. Contributions exceeding these limits made prior to the new rules taking effect TREASURY will not be charged. Further detail on these provisions is available at: www.hmrc.gov.uk. Around 98 per cent. of pension savers will not see their tax relief restricted by Fiscal Responsibility Bill (Draft Secondary Legislation) these provisions. The Government believe that this action is necessary, The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Ian Pearson): and that a straightforward extension of the current The Treasury has today published draft secondary anti-forestalling provisions is the simplest, least disruptive legislation in relation to the Fiscal Responsibility Bill to and least burdensome way to achieve this. indicate how the Treasury intends to use one of the powers provided by the Bill. Copies of the document are available in the Vote Office and have been deposited CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT in the Libraries of both Houses. Education, Youth and Culture Council Pre-Budget Report Measures The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Sarah Media and Sport (Mr. Siôn Simon): A meeting of the McCarthy-Fry): Budget 2009 announced that, in order Education, Youth and Culture Council was held on to ensure that the system of pensions tax relief remains 26 and 27 November. I represented the UK for the fair, affordable and sustainable, tax relief on pension culture and audiovisual section of the Council on contributions would be restricted for those with incomes 27 November. of £150,000 and over. This restriction applies to all The Council adopted, without further debate, the contributions, including those from employers. conclusions on promoting a creative generation by The gap between the announcement and implementation developing the creativity and innovative capacity of creates a real risk that those affected, or who believe children and young people through cultural expression they might be affected, would attempt to forestall the and access to culture. new rules by making large contributions now to take The proposal for the European Year of Voluntary advantage of higher rate tax relief that would not be Activities promoting Active Citizenship (2011) was adopted available to them after April 2011. by the Council. The year’s aim is to improve the environment To prevent this, at Budget 2009 the Government for volunteering in the EU, to raise the quality of introduced an anti-forestalling regime. It seeks to enable voluntary activities and to recognise the value and high-income individuals to continue to receive higher importance of volunteering. A budget of ¤8 million has rate relief on pension contributions that they would been allocated for this initiative. have made in the absence of the announcement of the The Council adopted the conclusions on media literacy 2011 reform, but not on higher contributions prompted in the digital environment encouraging the promotion by that announcement. of media literacy, including through formal and informal As announced in the 2009 pre-Budget report, the education, to maximise the potential of the internet and restriction of relief from April 2011 will apply to individuals minimise possible risks. The conclusions were adopted whose income, including the value of any pension benefit without further discussion. funded by (or eventually funded by) an individual’s There was then a presentation by the Commission on employer, is £150,000 or over. This will be subject to an the Google Books Report. The Commission had strong income floor so that those with pre-tax incomes, excluding concerns about the revised Google books settlement, the value of any employer contributions, of less than and argued for the development of an EU legal framework £130,000 are unaffected. So, the restriction will apply to on global copyright issues. The Commission encouraged about 2 per cent. of pension savers, who currently member states to increase the number of EU books receive around a quarter of tax relief on pension being digitised and highlighted that initial findings from contributions. the recent Consultation on Europeana (The European To prevent an estimated £400 million of tax revenues Digital Library) has shown strong support for the initiative. being put at risk before April 2011 by additional forestalling, A policy debate on the digitisation of cultural content the Government have today announced that the anti- in Europe followed the Commission’s presentation. All forestalling rules will be extended to apply to individuals member states agreed on the importance of fair but on incomes of £130,000 and over (with income being as user-friendly copyright rules, and the need for EU level defined on the same basis as in the existing anti-forestalling co-operation and encouragement. Public-private rules), effective from 9 December 2009 and for the partnerships were also supported by the majority of remainder of this tax year and next. This will be legislated member states, with many citing the usefulness of the in Finance Bill 2010 and draft clauses will be published Arrow project. There was no request for further member shortly. state funding for Europeana. 23WS Written Ministerial Statements9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 24WS

Under any other business, France raised the current Security Industry Authority (SIA) for 2008-09 will be financial difficulties faced by cinemas in transferring to laid before Parliament today and will be published on digital systems. Slovenia, supported by a number of 11 December 2009. member states, requested that books written in minority Copies of the report will be available in the Vote languages should be allowed to have a zero tax rate. The Office. Spanish gave a brief presentation on their forthcoming presidency. An informal Council meeting would be held on 29 and 30 March, a seminar on copyright and digital libraries in Madrid on 26 and 27 April, a European INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT Cultural Heritage conference on 29 April and a conference on the Mobility of Artists on 25 May in Madrid. United Nations Central Emergency Response Fund Finally, Austria asked the Commission to explain their proposed next steps following a letter received from Commissioner Reding on the Council of Europe convention on transfrontier television. This concerned The Secretary of State for International Development the legal implications of signing a Convention that (Mr. Douglas Alexander): The UK has provided £40 million related to an area of EU competence. The Commissioner per annum for the past four years to support the United argued that the letter merely reflected the current legal Nations (UN) Central Emergency Response Fund (CERF). reality. The Commission did not want their future right The CERF provides UN humanitarian agencies with of initiative to be affected by the Council of Europe early funding so that they can respond immediately convention, but agreed that we should co-operate on when a crisis strikes. The fund is also able to channel the basis of complementarity. They did not rule out the funds to neglected emergencies. possibility that a prior negotiating mandate may be To date, over US$1.5 billion has been contributed to necessary. the CERF by 109 UN member states and 19 private donors, of which the UK is the largest single contributor. During this time, the CERF has committed $1.4 billion ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS to emergency programmes in 71 countries. CERF has been an important part of the humanitarian response in Agriculture and Fisheries Council (14-16 December) nearly every major crisis in 2009. CERF was the top source of funding for five of the six UN emergency appeals launched in 2009 namely Lao People’s Democratic The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Republic, Madagascar, Namibia, Burkina Faso, and Rural Affairs (Hilary Benn): The Under-Secretary of the Philippines. The top recipients of CERF funds to State responsible for the natural and marine environment, date have been: DRC ($162 million), Sudan ($102 million), wildlife and rural affairs, my hon. Friend the Member Kenya ($79.4 million) Somalia ($71.3 million), Ethiopia for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies), will represent the ($69.5 million), Afghanistan ($60.1million), Sri Lanka United Kingdom at the Agriculture and Fisheries Council ($56.8 million) and Zimbabwe ($52.2 million). in Brussels from 14 to16 December. CERF has performed well over its first four years of There are a number of items on the agenda relating operation. An independent evaluation of the fund in to agriculture and fisheries which are of significant 2008 found that the CERF interest to the United Kingdom, including the adoption “has proven itself as a valuable and impartial tool, becoming of the recent dairy proposals, on which the UK will in a short time-frame, an essential feature of international abstain. Discussions will take place on the following: humanitarian action and complementing other humanitarian Conservation of fisheries resources through technical measures. financing mechanisms”. EU/Norway annual fisheries consultations for 2010. The evaluation report concluded that CERF has helped 2010 fishing opportunities for fish stocks in the Black sea. to accelerate humanitarian response and increase the Simplification of the common agricultural policy. coverage of needs. Future of the common agricultural policy: rural development. The UK is represented on the CERF Advisory Group, There are currently two items under any other which provides the UN’s Emergency Relief Coordinator business—a statement on Community action reducing with advice on the speed and appropriateness of fund incidental catches of seabirds; and general conclusions allocations, and examines performance and accountability. from the 26th conference of EU paying agencies. We share the view that the CERF has made good There is also a ministerial lunch scheduled to discuss progress. the reform of the common fisheries policy. In the light of the CERF’s solid performance to date, and as part of our ongoing efforts to improve the quality of the UK’s response to humanitarian crises, I HOME DEPARTMENT am pleased to inform the House that I have approved a further commitment to the CERF of £120 million over Security Industry Authority Annual Report and the next three years (January 2010 to December 2012). Accounts 2008-09 We will monitor the performance of the CERF closely to ensure this investment is used to the best effect. I hope that this long-term commitment will encourage The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the other donors to do likewise, thereby strengthening the Home Department (Mr. Alan Campbell): I am pleased financial sustainability of the CERF. We will continue to announce that the annual report and accounts of the to actively lobby key donors to this end. 13P Petitions9 DECEMBER 2009 Petitions 14P

rushed, failed to give due consideration to the evidence, Petitions failed to ensure that the data it collected were sufficiently robust, and failed to take proper account of the existing Wednesday 9 December 2009 legislative framework. The Petitioners therefore request that the House of PRESENTED PETITION Commons urges the Secretary of State for Children, Petition presented to the House but not read on the Floor Schools and Families either not to bring forward, or to withdraw, proposed legislative measures providing for Badman Report (Charnwood) tighter registration and monitoring of children educated The Petition persons resident in the Charnwood at home in the absence of a thorough independent Parliamentary constituency, inquiry into the condition and future of elective home education in England; but instead to take the steps Declares that they are concerned about the necessary to ensure that the existing Elective Home recommendations of the Badman Report, which suggests Education Guidelines for Local Authorities are properly closer monitoring of home educators, including a implemented, learning from current best practice, in all compulsory annual registration scheme and right of local authorities in England. access to people’s homes for local authority officials; further declares that the Petitioners believe the And the Petitioners remain, etc. recommendations are based on a review that was extremely [P000632]

349W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 350W

Angela E. Smith: Latest figures show levels of Written Answers to employment in the third sector have been sustained throughout 2008-09, with over 500,000 employees—a Questions significant achievement in light of the recession. We are committed to creating a further 25,000 jobs in the third sector through involvement in public services. The Cabinet Wednesday 9 December 2009 Office is working closely with the Department for Work and Pensions to support third sector involvement in the creation of 150,000 jobs through the Future Jobs Fund.

WALES Charities: Regulation Departmental Written Questions Mr. Evennett: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet John Mason: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales Office what steps the Government are taking to reduce how many questions tabled for answer on a named day the burden of regulation on charities. [304988] his Department received in each of the last 12 months; and to how many such questions his Department provided Angela E. Smith: The changes we have made to a substantive answer on the day named. [305385] charity law and accounting and reporting thresholds Mr. Hain: 28 named day questions were received have resulted in savings for up to 50,000 charities and within the last 12 months, 25 were answered on the up to £5 million per year. The new Charitable Incorporated specified date. Organisation, planned for next year, will give charities the advantages of incorporation without the burden of dual regulation by both the Charity Commission and Companies House. Departments are also cutting red OLYMPICS tape for third sector organisations and will be reporting Siemens on further progress later this month. The Government and National Audit Office (NAO) have produced guidance Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Minister for the to reduce red tape associated with the £12 billion a year Olympics whether the Government Olympic Executive the sector gets from Government. The Government has entered into any contracts with Siemens or its have introduced further measures to facilitate the use of Gift Aid, with particular support for smaller charities, subsidiaries since February 2009. [304259] including reforms to simplify the record keeping and Tessa Jowell: Neither the Government Olympic Executive auditing process. nor the Olympic Delivery Authority have entered into any contracts with Siemens or its subsidiaries. Christmas

Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Minister for the CABINET OFFICE Cabinet Office how much (a) her Department and (b) Civil Service Compensation Scheme its agency has spent on Christmas (i) cards, (ii) parties and (iii) decorations in the last 12 months. [303842] 10. Jo Swinson: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office what recent representations she has received on Angela E. Smith: Since 2006, the Cabinet Office has proposed changes to the Civil Service Compensation predominantly used an on-line e-card at no cost to the scheme; and if she will make a statement. [304990] Department. The cost of any Christmas cards sent by the Department is not held centrally and could be Angela E. Smith: On 31 July we published our proposals obtained only at disproportionate cost. No departmental to reform the Civil Service Compensation scheme. funds have been used for staff Christmas parties. Correspondence has been received from over 200 Members Christmas trees are situated at certain points on the and the Cabinet Office has received over 18,000 emails Cabinet Office estate, such as in the reception of the and letters in response to the consultation. Officials main buildings. The cost which includes the purchase, have had numerous meetings with the civil service unions decoration and environmentally friendly disposal of the since July 2008, and Ministers met the unions on trees in 2008 was £5,757. 22 September to listen to their views. In the light of representations significant changes which provide better outcomes for the lowest paid civil servants, while still Civil Servants: Hearing Impaired delivering the savings committed to. Overall, the new package—announced last Friday—provides fairer outcomes to civil servants and to taxpayers. Mr. Borrow: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office what information her Department holds on the Third Sector number of employees of each Government department who incurred hearing loss in the course of their duties Anne Moffat: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet in each year since 1999. [304011] Office what work with the third sector her Department is undertaking to encourage the creation of jobs. Angela E. Smith: The Cabinet Office does not hold [304992] this information. 351W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 352W

Departmental Security Maria Eagle: The Equality and Human Rights Commission has not made any payments to (a) Postif Mr. Heald: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office Politics and (b) APCO Worldwide in the last 12 months. how many security passes her Department has issued to contractors providing consultancy services in the last 12 months. [303953] Angela E. Smith: The Cabinet Office takes great care INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT regarding access to its buildings and its access control policies are in line with the HMG Security Policy Departmental Written Questions Framework, Mandatory Requirements 56, 57 and 58 The Department issues security passes to all those John Mason: To ask the Secretary of State for who are visiting and have business on its estate. Non-staff International Development how many questions tabled employed by the department (including temporary staff, for answer on a named day his Department received in short-term work placements, contractors and consultants) each of the last 12 months; and to how many such may be issued with either a temporary pass, an escorted questions his Department provided a substantive answer visitor pass or an unescorted visitor pass, depending on on the day named. [305376] the length of time they are working for the Department and their level of security clearance. Mr. Michael Foster: The number of named day Separately identifying those who may be visiting the parliamentary questions tabled for answer by the department to provide consultancy services from those Department for International Development (DFID) who are visiting for other reasons could be undertaken and answered on the day named is provided in the table. only at disproportionate cost. Number of named Number of answered Freedom of Information Month day questions tabled on the day named John Hemming: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet December 2008 4 4 Office if she will bring forward proposals to ensure that January 2009 16 15 public bodies which enter into partnership to provide February 2009 16 16 services are subject to the provisions of the Freedom of March 2009 54 52 Information Act 2000. [305046] April 2009 15 14 May 2009 10 9 Mr. Wills: I have been asked to reply as the Minister June 2009 17 16 responsible for Freedom of Information policy. July 2009 16 15 On 16 July 2009, the Government published the August 2009 0 0 response to their consultation on extending the Freedom September 2009 10 9 of Information Act by means of a section 5 order. It October 2009 24 19 noted that it was not minded to include in an initial November 2009 24 22 order companies providing, under a contract made with a public authority, any service whose provision is a function of that, authority. However, the Government Palestinians: Education have made clear that they intend to keep the extension of the Act under review. Mr. Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Scientists for International Development what steps his Department is taking to seek to ensure adequate education provision Adam Afriyie: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet for children in Gaza. [304766] Office on how many occasions she has met the Government chief scientific adviser in the course of her official Mr. Michael Foster: The Department for International duties in the last 12 months. [304731] Development (DFID) supports both the Palestinian Authority (PA) and the UN Relief and Works Agency Ms Butler: No current Cabinet Office Minister has (UNRWA) to provide education in Gaza. met with the Government chief scientific adviser within Our budget support to the PA was £50 million in the last 12 months. 2008 and £18.5 million so far in 2009. This funding contributes to the salaries of public sector workers, including teachers and the provision of basic services WOMEN AND EQUALITY such as education. Approximately 50 per cent. of PA spending goes to Gaza. Equality and Human Rights Commission: Public Relations UNRWAschools in Gaza are attended by over 200,000 children. Through our core funding to UNRWA, DFID Mr. Hurd: To ask the Minister for Women and Equality has contributed £100 million over five years (2007 to what payments the Equality and Human Rights 2012) towards teacher salaries. Commission has made to (a) Postif Politics and (b) DFID continues to press Israel to allow reconstruction APCO Worldwide in the last 12 months; for what materials into Gaza so that schools destroyed and damaged purpose; and if she will place in the Library a copy of in Operation Cast Lead can be repaired, and to lift all the contract under which such payments have been restrictions on the imports of stationery, textbooks and made. [305157] school furniture. 353W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 354W

Palestinians: Overseas Aid Sri Lanka: Overseas Aid

Mr. Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Mr. Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what steps his Department for International Development what assistance his is taking to provide medical assistance to those in Department plans to provide to Tamils released from refugee camps in Gaza. [304763] camps in Sri Lanka in December 2009; and with which international charities his Department plans to work to Mr. Michael Foster: Medical assistance to Palestinian provide such assistance. [304764] refugees in Gaza and elsewhere in the region is the responsibility of the United Nations Relief and Works Mr. Michael Foster: The Department for International Agency (UNRWA). The Department for International Development (DFID) has already provided considerable Development is providing £100 million to UNRWA in support to returning displaced people since September, core funding over five years (2007-12) which the Agency including de-mining programmes, transport, shelter can allocate to areas of most urgent need: this year we materials, water and sanitation, and seeds for restarting gave UNRWA nearly £20 million. About 5 per cent. of agricultural activities. Future support will be determined UNRWA’s overall budget is allocated to healthcare in on the basis of the evolving situation on the ground and Gaza. taken forward with the most appropriate delivery partners.

South East Asia: Tuberculosis FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE

Mr. Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State for Afghanistan: Armed Conflict International Development what contacts his Department has with governments of South East Asia in respect of Dr. Fox: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and the delivery of national tuberculosis programmes. Commonwealth Affairs what his Department’s estimate [304767] is of the population of (a) Britain’s area of responsibility in Helmand province and (b) each district in Helmand Mr. Michael Foster: The Department for International province. [304353] Development (DFID) contributes to tuberculosis (TB) control through a variety of channels including support Mr.IvanLewis:We estimate the population of Britain’s for National programmes, multi donor initiatives and area of responsibility in Helmand province to be 750,000 research. to 800,000. According to 2003 Central Statistical Office/UN In China, DFID has provided £28 million to the Population Fund Socio-Economic and Demographic National TB Control Programme. This programme has Profile, the estimated population of each district in increased national case detection rates from 30 per cent. Helmand are: in 2000 to over 70 per cent. in 2007 in 16 provinces, covering half of China’s population. Furthermore Number 1.8 million patients have successfully been treated and Baghran 129,947 cure rates are now well above 85 per cent. Dishu 29,005 DFID will provide £30.1 million by 2011 to the Garmsir 107,153 multi-donor funded Three Diseases Fund (3DF) which Gereshk/Nahr-e Saraj 166,827 aims to tackle TB, malaria and HIV/AIDS. The 3DF Kajaki 119,023 provides grants to UN agencies and NGOs to support Khanashin 17,333 delivery of the National TB Strategy in Burma. DFID is Lashkar Gah 201,546 also the donor representative on the Country Coordinating Musa Qal’eh 138,896 Mechanism which oversees the implementation of the Nad-e Ali 235,590 National TB Strategy in Burma. Nawa 89,814 Nawzad 108,258 Sangin 66,901 Sri Lanka Washir 31,476

Mr. Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Afghanistan: Politics and Government for International Development what estimate he has made of the number of Tamils released from camps in Mr. Keith Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for Sri Lanka in December 2009. [304765] Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether (a) he and (b) officials in his Department have had discussions Mr. Michael Foster: The Government of Sri Lanka with their Afghan counterparts on a national unity announced that freedom of movement would be allowed government in Afghanistan. [304720] for all the remaining displaced people held in camps by 1 December 2009. Since this date figures for the number Mr. Ivan Lewis: In the run up to and following of people returning to their home areas have been Afghanistan’s 2009 presidential elections, we met with a changing rapidly and are hard to follow accurately on a range of presidential candidates and continue to encourage day by day basis. However at the end of last week, the all parties to work together for the good of Afghanistan. United Nations estimated that more than 150,000 people It is not for the UK to dictate to Afghanistan’s political had returned to their home areas. leadership the makeup of any future government, or 355W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 356W prescribe the degree to which the Afghan government Aminatou Haidar should formally work with its opposition. What is important is that with UK and international community support, Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign the Afghan government and other key Afghan partners and Commonwealth Affairs if he will discuss with his reach out across the political spectrum in order to Moroccan counterpart the deportation of Aminatou deliver progress on the key issues President Karzai Haidar, with particular reference to Article 12(4) of the outlined in his inauguration speech: security, governance, International Convention on Civil and Human Rights. peace and reintegration, economic development and [304261] regional relations. Mr. Ivan Lewis: Officials from our embassy in Rabat, Mr. Keith Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Foreign and Commonwealth Office in London and Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the the United Kingdom’s Mission to the United Nations Prime Minister’s Statement of 30 November 2009, have discussed the case of Aminatou Haidar with the Official Report, columns 831-6, on Afghanistan and Moroccan authorities. Article 12(4) of the International Pakistan, what proposals the Government has brought Convention on Civil and Political Rights has not been forward on stronger international civilian leadership in raised during these discussions. We have however made Afghanistan; and when he expects such proposals to be it clear that we believe the issue should be resolved agreed with international partners. [304933] swiftly and fairly. We have also made it clear to the Moroccan authorities Mr. Ivan Lewis: Following President Karzai’s that recent events risk impeding the UN-led negotiation inauguration speech on 19 November 2009 and President process. The UK remains fully committed to this process, Obama’s statement on 1 December 2009, the international and will continue to support the UN Secretary-General’s community are reinvigorating their efforts to deliver Personal Envoy, Christopher Ross, in his efforts to and co-ordinate coherent and effective support for the bring the parties together to find a mutually acceptable Government of Afghanistan and its people. Work is political agreement that provides for the self-determination progressing on a number of fronts. NATO foreign Ministers of the people of Western Sahara. discussed Afghanistan on 3 and 4 December 2009 and a NATO force generation conference on 7 December British Indian Ocean Territory: Environment Protection 2009 focused on increasing the Allied military effort. It is important that this enhanced International Security Andrew George: To ask the Secretary of State for Assistance Force military effort is matched by a stronger, Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what (a) historic more-effective civil effort. We are discussing with our and (b) other entitlements affect his Department’s international partners how best to achieve this. The ability to enforce the proposed new Chagos Archipelago London Conference will offer a timely focus to taking Marine Protected Area. [302472] forward international agreement on delivering a more coherent civilian effort. Chris Bryant: No decision has yet been taken on whether a Marine Protected Area will be established in Afghanistan: Reconstruction the British Indian Ocean Territory (BIOT). A decision will be taken following the public consultation which is Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for at present underway. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he has The UK is responsible for enforcing protection of the made a recent estimate of the (a) direct and (b) BIOT Fisheries and Conservation Management Zone/ indirect contribution of his Department and its staff to Environmental Preservation and Protection Zone and the economy of Afghanistan. [305469] this would also be the case for any proposed Marine Protected Area. Surveillance and monitoring of the Mr. Ivan Lewis: The effort in Afghanistan is cross- fisheries is, at present, carried out by a Senior Fisheries departmental, with the bulk of the UK’s efforts supporting Protection Officer based on board the BIOT Patrol the economy coming from the Department for International Vessel—the Pacific Marlin, and the Marine Resources Development (DFID). However, one of the greatest Assessment Group’s monitoring centre in London. needs for the Afghan economy is stability. Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) efforts across Afghanistan Departmental Information Officers and wider region, supporting stability will therefore have the greatest indirect impact on the Afghan economy, Mr. Heald: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign although it is not possible to measure this contribution. and Commonwealth Affairs how many full-time There are a number of projects, procurement and equivalent press officers (a) are employed by and (b) salaries in the local economy which have a direct impact work for his Department. [303599] on the local economy. Local purchases amounted to Chris Bryant: The White Book, published by the £6.8 million in 2008, much of which will have fed Central Office of Information (COI) every six months, directly back to the Afghan economy. Local staff salaries contains details of the Foreign and Commonwealth were an additional £549,000. Spending in 2009 is likely Office’s press team in London. to be similar. In addition, the FCO supports numerous programmes which support activity in Afghanistan. Ilois: Resettlement This financial year (2009-10) the total budget for non-DFID civilian programmes in Afghanistan is £88.4 million. Of Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for this, it is predicted that £54.1 million is administered Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what research his with the promotion of economic development and Department is undertaking on the viability of the proposed welfare—officially Overseas Development Authority— return of the Chagos Islanders to the archipelago; and spend. This does not include DFID spending. if he will make a statement. [305190] 357W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 358W

Chris Bryant: Following the Law Lords judgment of Mr. Ivan Lewis: The Government have made clear 22 October 2008 in the Judicial Review of the 2004 their view that in light of the control that Israel continues British Indian Ocean Territory Orders in Council, to exercise over Gaza, Israel remains bound by obligations Government policy remains that no-one has a right of under the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949 in respect abode in the Territory or the right to enter the Territory of Gaza. Those obligations include article 23 of that unless authorised. The Government have no plans to convention. We are deeply concerned about the situation resettle the Chagos Islanders in the Territory and is not in Gaza and continue, bilaterally and with our EU therefore undertaking research on the viability of the partners, to urge Israel to allow reconstruction and return of the Chagos Islanders to the British Indian humanitarian supplies into Gaza. Ocean Territory. Derek Wyatt: To ask the Secretary of State for India: Religious Freedom Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he has made representations to the Israeli government on the Mr. Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State payment of compensation to the United Nations Relief for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what and Works Agency for Palestinian Refugees in the discussions he has had with his Indian counterpart on Near East following the shelling of its compound in measures to enable displaced Christians in Orissa Gaza City in January 2009. [304909] province to return to their homes. [303117] Mr. Ivan Lewis: The Government were deeply concerned Mr. Ivan Lewis: My right hon. Friend the Foreign by reports of incidents involving UN property/personnel Secretary has not discussed this with his Indian counterpart. during the Gaza conflict. UN Secretary-General Ban On 10-11 November 2009 our High Commissioner to Ki-moon set up the UN Board of Inquiry to investigate India visited Orissa and enquired with the local state certain incidents involving UN property/personnel during authorities, including the Chief Minister, about the the Gaza Conflict. The Board reported back on 5 May. status of Christians still affected by the violence in The UN Secretariat are taking this forward—including Orissa in 2008, living conditions, compensation and the the issue of compensation—directly with the Israeli prosecution of those responsible. The local authorities Government. advised that the state run camps had been closed, affected Christians had now returned to their homes, Derek Wyatt: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign compensation had been provided and perpetrators had and Commonwealth Affairs what representations the been convicted. However, resettlement of those displaced Government has made to the Israeli government on the and the reconstruction of churches was still ongoing. alleged shelling with high explosive and white phosphorus munitions of the United Nations compound in Gaza on Israel: Prisoners 15 January 2009. [304910]

Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Ivan Lewis: Our embassy in Tel Aviv raised Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what reports he concerns over this incident directly with the Israeli has received of the detention by the Israeli authorities Government on the day it took place. of Mohammed Othman from Jayyous; and whether he We have been clear from the beginning of the Gaza has made representations to the government of Israel conflict that all allegations of breaches of international on the subject. [304705] humanitarian law committed by both sides must be properly investigated. Mr. Ivan Lewis: We are concerned by Mr. Othman’s UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon set up the UN treatment and long detention without charge. Foreign Board of Inquiry to investigate certain incidents involving and Commonwealth Office Minister of State, Ivan Lewis, UN property/personnel during the Gaza Conflict. The raised UK concerns over Othman’s case with the deputy Board reported back on 5 May 2009. The UN Secretariat Israeli Foreign Minister, Danny Ayalon on 27 October are now taking this forward with the Israeli Government. 2009. Our embassy in Tel Aviv, and our consulate-general in Jerusalem, continue to follow his case closely. Morocco: Mining More generally, we continue to monitor the situation with regard to all Palestinian prisoners in Israeli prisons. Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign We are very concerned about cases of administrative and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the answer of detention: we call on the Israeli government to take 6 October 2009, Official Report, column 228W, on immediate action to ensure that all cases are reviewed Morocco: mining, what recent steps the Government by a court in accordance with fair procedures, and that has taken to seek to ensure that Morocco fulfils its detainees’ rights are upheld. obligations under international law to ensure that the extraction and exploitation of phosphates do not Middle East: Armed Conflict adversely affect the interests of the people of Western Sahara. [304262] Derek Wyatt: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment Mr. Ivan Lewis: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer he has made of Israel’s compliance with its obligations of my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Bill Rammell) under article 23 of the Fourth Geneva Convention in of 23 March 2009, Official Report, column 32W. respect of free passage into Gaza of consignments of The UK continues to maintain its position that Morocco, (a) medical and hospital objects, (b) food and (c) as the de facto administering power of Western Sahara, clothing. [304882] is obliged under international law to ensure that economic 359W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 360W activities under administration—including the extraction All the Foreign and Commonwealth Office’s (FCO) and exportation of phosphates—do not adversely affect overseas missions have a responsibility to monitor and the interests of the people in Western Sahara. raise human rights in their host countries. Our embassies raise freedom of religion or belief in a variety of different Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign contexts. We take action on individual cases where and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make persecution or discrimination has occurred; lobby for representations to the Moroccan government on (a) changes in discriminatory practices and laws; raise freedom ending the movement of members of the Moroccan of religion or belief in bilateral and EU human rights civilian population into the occupied Western Sahara dialogues; and work in the UN and other international and (b) the application of Article 49 of the Fourth organisations to uphold universal standards. The FCO Geneva Convention until the status of Western Sahara does not keep statistics on our lobbying on religious is determined. [304414] persecution or indeed on broader human rights issues. Sudan: Politics and Government Mr. Ivan Lewis: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer of my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Bill Rammell) of 5 May 2009, Official Report, column 47W, Western Andrew Stunell: To ask the Secretary of State for Sahara: Politics and Government: Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent discussions he has had with (a) the Sudanese government and (b) We have not discussed the movement of population between the UN on the peacekeeping patrols in Darfur being Morocco and Western Sahara, or the application of article 49 of the fourth Geneva convention, and have no current plans to blocked; and if he will make a statement. [304679] discuss either matter with the Moroccan Government. Mr. Ivan Lewis: We regularly discuss UN peacekeeping The Government see the status of Western Sahara as undetermined and continue to believe that progress towards a negotiated solution in Darfur with the UN, the Government of Sudan and to the dispute, providing for the self-determination of the people other parties in Darfur, emphasising the importance of of Western Sahara, is best achieved under the auspices of the UN. the African Union-United Nations Hybrid operation To this end the UK fully supports the efforts of the UN Secretary- (UNAMID) in Darfur being able to exercise its full General and his Personal Envoy, Christopher Ross. mandate in accordance with the Statement of Forces Agreement. On 30 November 2009 the UN Security Proliferation: Nuclear Weapons Council reiterated its full support for UNAMID and emphasised the need for all parties in Darfur to unconditionally guarantee full access to UNAMID patrols Gregory Barker: To ask the Secretary of State for in Darfur. On 12 November 2009 we participated in a Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps the demarche setting out to the UN and African Union our Government is taking to prepare for the 2010 Review strong concern at the Government of Sudan’s non- Conference of the Parties to the Treaty on the Non- compliance with the Status of Forces Agreement and Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons. [304465] urging them to take all necessary measures to ensure that Sudan complies with its terms. Mr. Ivan Lewis: The Government have led international efforts to re-energise the consensus underpinning the Taliban non-proliferation treaty over the last three years. There are clear indications that the international mood is Dr. Pugh: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign changing. and Commonwealth Affairs what estimate he has made Building on the “Road to 2010” policy document of the proportion of the Taliban’s income which launched by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister in derives from the illicit trade in opium. [303037] July 2009, and available at: Mr. Ivan Lewis: The UN Office on Drugs and Crime http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/reports/roadto2010.aspx (UNODC) released the report Addiction, Crime and The Government will continue to work hard with Insurgency: The Transnational Threat of Afghan Opium nuclear weapon states partners and the great mainstream on 21 October 2009. In it the UNODC estimates that of the non-aligned movement to build critical momentum the Taliban in Afghanistan now derive between $90-160 and ensure a successful review conference next May. million per year from taxing opium production. There are no accurate assessments of what proportion of the Religious Freedom Taliban’s income comes from the drugs trade. However, the UK assesses that the opium trade represents a Andrew Mackinlay: To ask the Secretary of State for significant proportion of the Taliban’s income. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs on how many USA: Anti-semitism occasions each UK mission has raised the question of persecution or discrimination in relation to (a) the Mr. Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Christian faith, (b) the Islamic faith, (c) Judaism, (d) and Commonwealth Affairs what recent reports he Sikhism, (e) Hinduism, (f) Buddhism and (g) other has received of incidents of anti-Semitism in the US; religious faiths in each of the last 12 months; and if he whether he has had recent discussions with the US will make a statement. [304445] administration on that matter; and if he will make a statement. [305396] Mr. Ivan Lewis: The UK condemns all instances of persecution and discrimination against individuals and Mr. Ivan Lewis: I have not received any recent reports groups because of their faith or belief, wherever they of anti-Semitism in the US. For a more detailed explanation occur and whatever the religion of the individual or of ongoing discussions between the UK and US on the group concerned. issue of anti-Semitism, I refer the hon. Member to my 361W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 362W answer of 3 December 2009, in which I said that we surviving with other associated and sometimes life-changing continue to work closely with the US administration injuries. We are continually seeking ways to further and other partners to combat anti-Semitism wherever it protect our personnel, and work is well under way to occurs. research ways of providing additional protection including for the whole groin area. Western Sahara: Human Rights Mr. Holloway: To ask the Secretary of State for Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Defence (1) how much his Department paid for Jet A1 and Commonwealth Affairs with reference to the and diesel fuel delivered to Camp Bastion in support of answer of 9 September 2009, Official Report, column UK operations in the last 12 month period for which 1969W, on Western Sahara: human rights, whether the figures are available; [304745] matter of human rights abuses in the Non-Self (2) what the average monthly cost to his Department Governing Territory of Western Sahara related to calls was of Jet A1 and diesel fuel delivered to Camp for a referendum was raised with Morocco by EU Bastion in support of UK operations since 2005. officials in the meeting of the Sub-Committee on [304746] Human Rights, Democratisation and Governance on 24 July 2009. [304417] Mr. Quentin Davies [holding answer 7 December 2009]: Fuel for both Bastion and Kandahar Airbase is paid for Mr. Ivan Lewis: The EU and Morocco held positive from the same budget. During the last 12 calendar and open discussions in the meeting of the Sub-Committee months £85,669,000 was paid for aviation fuel; and on Human Rights, Democratisation and Governance £43,058,000 for ground fuel for both locations. Based on 24 July 2009. A wide range of human rights-related upon information from FY 2008-09 onwards the average issues were discussed, including women’s rights, freedom monthly cost of aviation fuel was £6,070,000; and £2,891,000 of expression and the rights of detainees. Whilst there for ground fuel for both Bastion and Kandahar Airbase. was no discussion relating specifically to the issue of The information for fuel costs prior to FY 2008-09 is Western Sahara, Morocco has a responsibility towards not held centrally. the people living there and therefore the discussions that took place did not exclude Western Sahara. Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for The UK and European partners regularly engage in Defence what steps the Department is taking to enable discussions with the Moroccan authorities on issues mail and postal services provided for armed forces related to human rights and Western Sahara, and raise personnel in Afghanistan to manage the volume of individual cases where appropriate. letters and parcels expected over the Christmas period. [305343]

DEFENCE Mr. Kevan Jones: Over the Christmas period, the British Forces Post Office (BFPO) employs extra staff Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations to ensure that all HM Forces mail to all world-wide destinations including Afghanistan is dispatched promptly. Dr. Fox: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence The Enduring Free Mail Service which operates all what plans there are to implement the Afghan Public year round is bolstered by the Christmas Free Mail Protection Programme in Helmand province. [304369] Service (CFMS) for one month before Christmas, where the Free Post is extended to cover not only Operations Mr. Ivan Lewis: I have been asked to reply. and their supporting ships, but all destinations where HM Forces are deployed. We are fully aware of the Afghan Public Protection Force project being piloted in Wardak province with the The CFMS is advertised along with Last Dates of help of the US. We welcome the principle of empowering Posting via a Defence Information Notice and the individual communities to take a greater role in providing BFPO and MOD websites. This information is also their own security. We will remain in close contact with available on the Royal Mail website. the Afghan Government and the US on its progress and MOD undertook press and media campaigns in the look forward to discussing the results of this pilot with run up to Christmas to promote the reduction in volume them in due course. Only once the pilot has been of Unsolicited Mail, which places a considerable burden rigorously evaluated will any decisions on expansion, on the Supply Chain, which, left unchecked, can seriously including to Helmand, be taken. delay personal mail. Finally, over the Christmas period, Royal Mail Mr. Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence occasionally delivers directly to BFPO to shorten transport what estimate he has made of the proportion of armed time, rather than BFPO staff collecting mail from the forces personnel who deploy to Helmand province equipped Royal Mail Depot at Greenford. with a cricket box for groin protection; and if he will make a statement. [304726] Armed Forces: Equipment Mr. Kevan Jones: All of the protective personal equipment provided to armed forces personnel is constantly Mr. Gerald Howarth: To ask the Secretary of State under review. The Osprey body armour systems have for Defence what the (a) required and (b) actual long been considered to be among the best in the world, number is of (i) items of night vision equipment, and the survival rates are testimony to that; however, a (ii) pieces of body armour and (iii) small arms for direct by-product of that is that personnel are now pre-deployment training. [305023] 363W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 364W

Mr. Quentin Davies: The current required and actual Tariff Descriptor Compensation award (£) number of night vision equipment, body armour and small arms specifically held for pre-deployment training Either are provided in the following table. 14 Traumatic injury to 2,888 genitalia requiring Requirement Holdings treatment resulting in moderate permanent Night vision systems damage Helmet Mounted Night Vision 7,168 4,477 Or System 12 Traumatic injury to 9,075 Light Weight Thermal Image 971 762 genitalia requiring sights (VIPIR 2 and 2+) treatment resulting in severe permanent damage or loss Body armour Osprey 2,901 4,697 In addition, where appropriate, the following tariff Osprey Assault 6,146 0 may be awarded:

Small arms Tariff Descriptor Compensation award Light Machine Gun 922 922 8 Infertility—this level will Lump sum £48,875 + GIP Shotgun 198 70 also attract a guaranteed Sig Pistol 3,007 1,162 income payment (GIP) which is a tax-free index linked payment that is Where there is a shortfall against the pre-deployment paid monthly for life after training requirement, this reflects the newness of equipment, leaving the armed forces. or the growth in forces deployed. We are making further The GIP is determined by progress in closing the gap and should meet the full the individual’s salary at requirement for each equipment type identified (except time of discharge from service, multiplied by a the Sig Pistol) by July 2010, and in some cases earlier relevant factor. than July. All pistols (some 25,000) are due to be replaced as part of the Soldier System Lethality programme. These provisions are included within the review of Equipment availability for pre-deployment training is the AFCS, being led by Lord Boyce. carefully managed and prioritised to ensure that operators are safe, qualified and competent on the equipment prior to deployment. Armoured Fighting Vehicles In addition to the equipment allocated specifically for pre-deployment training, further equipment is held Mr. Gerald Howarth: To ask the Secretary of State by units themselves; these items are not included in the for Defence what the current (a) required and (b) figures as they are not specifically held for pre-deployment actual number of drivers is for each armoured vehicle training. type in the armed forces. [305024]

Mr. Quentin Davies: This information is not held Armed Forces: Injuries centrally, or in the format requested, and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Armoured vehicles are used by a number of corps Mr. Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence and units across the armed forces. Units are required to pursuant to the answer of 26 November 2009, Official train using a ratio of 1.5 crew operators (drivers) per Report, columns 287-8W,on Afghanistan: peacekeeping vehicle against their peacetime establishment. This ratio operations, what compensation is payable for loss of is different for operational requirements, which is usually (a) the penis and (b) normal use of the penis under the set at two crew operators per vehicle. provisions of the Armed Forces and Reserve Forces (Compensation scheme) Order 2005; and what level of These ratios may vary depending on the vehicle, severity of injury on the scheme’s scale such compensation however all requirements are currently being met. represents. [304725] AWE Aldermaston Mr. Kevan Jones: The Armed Forces and Reserve Forces (Compensation Scheme) Order 2005 makes provision Mr. Dai Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for of compensation for all members and former members Defence what progress has been made on preparations of the regular armed forces or reserve forces should for Project Pegasus at AWE Aldermaston. [304681] they be injured, become ill or die as a result of service. Awards are tariff based depending upon the nature and Mr. Quentin Davies: Work to prepare the site commenced severity of the injury. There is no standard provision for in 2007, and includes site investigation, the removal of particular types of injury or theatre of operation. redundant services, preparatory ground works and services The following table reflects the current Armed Forces diversion works. This work is allowable prior to planning and Reserve Forces (Compensation Scheme) Order 2005 consent being received, and is currently planned to tariff covering injury to the genitalia. complete by the end of 2010. 365W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 366W

Nick Harvey: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Departmental Official Hospitality what estimate he has made of the length of the construction period for the new enriched uranium facility at AWE Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State Aldermaston as proposed in the planning application for Defence how much (a) his Department and (b) its made to West Berkshire council; what plans he has for agencies spent on (i) alcohol and (ii) entertainment in the usage of the uranium processed there; and if he will the last 12 months. [305542] make a statement. [305195] Mr. Kevan Jones: I refer the hon. Member to the Mr. Quentin Davies: The replacement enriched uranium answer I gave on 12 October 2009, Official Report, handling facility at the Atomic Weapons Establishment columns 422-33. The provision of alcohol at public is due on current plans to become operational in 2018. expense must be in moderation and is subject to both The materiel outputs of the facility are for use in the financial and quantity restrictions. Defence nuclear programme. I am not prepared to disclose further details of usage as this would, or would Departmental Public Expenditure be likely to, prejudice national security and defence in the UK. Mr. Gerald Howarth: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence with reference to the answer of 28 January Nick Harvey: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence 2009, Official Report, columns 509-22, on supply estimates, with reference to the answer of 11 November 2009, what the equivalent figures are for each estimate type in Official Report, column 403W, on Atomic Weapons his Department’s Winter Supplementary Estimate for Establishment: radioactive waste, who owns the radioactive 2009-10. [305104] waste at the site; and whether the costs of storing radioactive waste at Atomic Weapons Establishment Bill Rammell: I am placing a copy of the requested sites are covered in the contract arrangements between information in the Library of the House, which breaks AWE plc and his Department. [305227] down the MOD’s 2009-10 winter supplementary estimate in the same format as we have supplied before. Mr. Quentin Davies: The Ministry of Defence owns the Atomic Weapons Establishment (AWE) sites and all Departmental Public Relations radioactive waste stored on those sites. The cost of storing radioactive waste at AWE is covered in the Mr. Hurd: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence management and operation contract between AWE what payments the Met Office has made to (a) Cavendish Management Ltd and the Department. Communications and (b) Politics International in the last 12 months; for what purpose; and if he will place in Departmental Buildings the Library a copy of each contract under which such payments have been made. [305063]

John Mason: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Mr. Kevan Jones: The following payments have been what assets his Department has sold and leased back in made in each of the last three financial years: each of the last 10 years; what the sale price was of each asset so sold; and what estimate he has made of the cost £ to the public purse of leasing back each such asset over Politics Cavendish the period of the lease. [305284] International Communications

Mr. Kevan Jones: During the last 10 years this 2006-07 61,671 0 Department has entered into a number of temporary 2007-08 54,362 0 lease back arrangements in the course of estate disposals, 2008-09 11,669 16,000 for example to allow time for facilities to be reprovided. Payments relate principally to training and support The details requested are not held centrally and could for Met Office events. The contracts between the Met be provided only at disproportionate cost. Office and Cavendish Communications and Politics So far as the disposal of other surplus Ministry of International are confidential. Defence assets (such as ships, tanks, aircraft, plant, IT and other equipment) is concerned, no lease backs are Departmental Telephone Services entered into. Mark Lazarowicz: To ask the Secretary of State for Departmental Compensation Defence how many telephone lines with the prefix (a) 0870, (b) 0845 and (c) 0800 his Department (i) operates and (ii) sponsors; how many calls were received to each Willie Rennie: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence number in the last 12 months; and whether alternative how much his Department has spent on (a) damages numbers charged at the BT local rate are available in awarded against it and (b) legal costs in respect of cases each case. [305218] in the courts relating to a decision of the Army Board under the redress system in respect of which legal Mr. Quentin Davies: The use of 0800, 0845 and 0870 proceedings have been completed since 1997. [305054] numbers is determined at local level in accordance with individual business requirements and obtained directly Mr. Bob Ainsworth: This information is not held from the supplier. Records of such numbers are not centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate held centrally and could be provided only at cost. disproportionate cost. 367W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 368W

Departmental Written Questions Sale and leaseback is a commercially accepted practice ensuring the MOD maintains use of the facility while John Mason: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence releasing useful capital. how many questions tabled for answer on a named day his Department received in each of the last 12 months; John Mason: To ask the Secretary of State for and to how many such questions his Department provided Defence what consultation was undertaken with unions a substantive answer on the day named. [305386] representing staff at his Department’s Kentigern House site in Glasgow prior to the sale and lease back of the Mr. Kevan Jones: The MOD received 643 named day site. [305283] questions during the past 12 months and answered 482 (75 per cent.) on the day named. The MOD aims to Mr. Kevan Jones: I refer the hon. Member to the answer all named day questions on the day named, but answer I gave my hon. Friend the Member for North where this is not possible, we aim to provide a substantive Ayrshire and Arran (Ms Clark), on 26 November 2009, reply at the earliest opportunity. Official Report, column 294W. The following table shows the number of questions which were due for answer in each month and the Rescue Services: Helicopters number answered on the day named: Nick Harvey: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Number of questions how many helicopter callouts of each type from each Number of named day answered on the day Month Questions for answer named search and rescue station there were in each of the last 10 years; and how many (a) day and (b) night time December 53 39 hours off-station each call out entailed. [303634] 2008 January 2009 61 40 Bill Rammell: I am placing data showing the number February 47 36 of helicopter call outs of each type from each search 2009 and rescue (SAR) station in each of the last 10 years in March 2009 58 37 the Library of the House. April 2009 22 17 Information on the actual daytime and night-time May 2009 54 39 hours off-station for each call out is not held centrally June 2009 56 43 and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. July 2009 51 43 September 74 72 Further data on military SAR activities is published 2009 by Defence Analytical Services and Advice at the following October 79 53 link; 2009 http://www.dasa.mod.uk/applications/newWeb/www/ November 88 63 index.php?page=66&pubType=0 2009 All UK SAR helicopter units are able to provide Total 643 482 overlapping cover when an adjacent unit is either already committed to a SAR operation or operating at a reduced HMS Endurance capability for any reason, or during periods of temporary closure. The provision of adjacent SAR cover is standard Dr. Julian Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for practice and occurs routinely when a SAR helicopter is Defence what decisions have been taken in respect of already airborne on a search and rescue sortie or is the (a) repair and (b) replacement of HMS Endurance; unserviceable. what tenders have been sought in respect of damage caused to her; what the cost was of her return to the St. Kilda: Radar United Kingdom; and if he will make a statement. [304687] Mrs. Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Mr. Quentin Davies: Options for restoring our Ice (1) how many incidents of oil leakage from his Department’s Patrol capability are presently being examined and no facilities in the vicinity of St. Kilda have been recorded final decisions on whether to repair or replace HMS in each of the last three years; [304186] Endurance have yet been taken. Therefore, no tenders (2) what measures are in place to prevent the leakage have yet been sought. The cost to the Department of of oil into seawater from his Department’s facilities in returning her to the United Kingdom was approximately the vicinity of St. Kilda. [304187] £4.3 million. Kentigern House Mr. Quentin Davies: No oil leakages from Ministry of Defence facilities on or in the vicinity of St. Kilda has been recorded during the last three years. John Mason: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence when and for what reasons his Department decided to The Bulk Fuel Installation (BFI) located on St. Kilda, sell and lease back its Kentigern House site in Glasgow. in support of activity at the MOD Hebrides Range, is [305281] compliant with the current legal standard, the Water Environment (Oil Storage) (Scotland) Regulations 2006. Mr. Kevan Jones: The decision to sell and lease back Ship-to-shore replenishment of the BFI is undertaken Kentigern House in Glasgow was taken as part of the in compliance with the Maritime and Coastguard Agency planning round that concluded in spring 2009. approved “St Kilda Oil Spillage Response Plan”, prepared 369W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 370W in accordance with the merchant Shipping (Oil Pollution Departmental Buildings Preparedness, Response and Co-operation Convention) Regulations 1998. Mr. Baron: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, A number of measures are in place to protect the Media and Sport how much his Department spent on environment from spills and leakage. The oil tanks and works and refurbishment to offices allocated to Ministers associated equipment are enclosed within a physical in his Department’s buildings in the last 12 months. containment barrier, known as a bund. As an additional [305687] precaution, the fuel connection points, pipe-work, valves, vent points, sight glass, rainwater sump, oil-water Mr. Simon: The Department has not refurbished or interceptors, and spillage kits are protected against the carried out any works to offices allocated to Ministers effects of ice. in the last 12 months. Vehicle refuelling on the island is undertaken within the containment area. The refuelling pump is only Departmental Electronic Equipment operated by authorised personnel, and is locked when not in use. Mr. Hands: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport how many plasma screen televisions his Department has purchased since 2001; and what the cost has been of purchasing and installing such CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT screens in each such year. [306080]

Betting Shops: Horseracing Mr. Simon: Since 2001 my Department has purchased one plasma television screen at a cost of £2,715.31 inc Mr. Caborn: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, VAT. The cost covered purchase and installation in June Media and Sport what estimate he has made of the 2007. effect on the Horserace Betting Levy of the operation of betting exchanges. [305287] Departmental Freedom of Information

Mr. Sutcliffe: The Government have not made such Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for an estimate. However, the Horserace Betting Levy Board Culture, Media and Sport how many requests under informs me that the levy payable by betting exchanges is the Freedom of Information Act 2000 his Department equivalent to 10 per cent. of their gross profits, defined received in 2008; and how many of these received a as gross commission on British Horserace Betting Business substantive response within 20 days. [305496] deducted from winnings paid out to bettors and bet-takers. In the year ended 31 March 2009, Betfair also made a Mr. Simon: The information is published regularly by voluntary contribution to the Levy Board in respect of Government, and can be found on the Ministry of British Horserace Betting Business conducted by their Justice website at: off-shore website in Malta. http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/ Betting exchanges operate a business model that does freedomofinformationquarterly.htm not deliver product through shops. When bookmakers accept risk on bets and do so in shops, liability to levy Departmental Public Relations and gross profits tax is calculated without the deduction of overheads. This leads to a proportionately larger contribution to the levy than would be the case for a Mr. Hurd: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, betting exchange. Media and Sport what payments the Heritage Lottery Fund has made to (a) Blue Rubican, (b) Greenhause Communications and (c) Strategem in the last Broadband: East Midlands 12 months; for what purpose; and if he will place in the Library a copy of the contracts under which such Mr. McLoughlin: To ask the Secretary of State for payments have been made. [305139] Culture, Media and Sport what steps his Department is taking to ensure that people resident in (a) West Mr. Simon: The information you have requested is Derbyshire and (b) the East Midlands have access to not held centrally and is an operational matter for the high-speed broadband. [303189] Heritage Lottery Fund, who have been unable to provide the information requested to the timescales dictated by Mr. Timms: I have been asked to reply. parliamentary convention. The Next Generation Fund will help to bring fast Accordingly, I have asked the chief executive to write broadband to at least 90 per cent. of households in the to the hon. Member for Ruislip Northwood. Copies of UK by 2017. The fund will promote the roll out of the reply will be placed in the Libraries of both Houses. infrastructure that meets the needs of businesses and households in regions the market would not otherwise Mr. Hurd: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, deliver to. It will work alongside the Government’s Media and Sport what payments the Gambling Universal Service Commitment, a parallel infrastructure Commission has made to Grayling Political Strategy in investment programme to ensure virtually every community the last 12 months; for what purpose; and if he will has access to a broadband connection capable of providing place in the Library a copy of the contracts under at least 2Mbps. which such payments have been made. [305140] 371W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 372W

Mr. Sutcliffe: The information the hon. Member has what proportion of the change in costs is accounted for requested is not held centrally and is a matter for the by the relocation of the Commission in Birmingham. Gambling Commission. [305119] Accordingly, I have asked the responsible director to write to the hon. Member. Copies of the reply will be Mr. Sutcliffe: The Gambling Commission completed placed in the Libraries of both Houses. its move to Birmingham in July 2006. The total operating costs of the Commission were £6.645 million in 2007-08 Departmental Scientists falling to £5.027 million in 2008-09.

Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Gambling Commission: Finance Media and Sport how many (a) scientific advisers and (b) civil servants in scientific posts there are in his Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Department. [302027] Culture, Media and Sport what value for money objectives his Department has set for the Gambling Mr. Simon: DCMS has one chief scientific adviser Commission. [305121] who is a Senior Civil Servant, Director, and Board member. The chief scientific adviser leads a team of 15 Mr. Sutcliffe: The Gambling Commission’s performance civil servants working in a variety of scientific or research is primarily assessed through a funding agreement with posts across the disciplines of economics, statistics, the Department which includes their agreed strategic social or operational research. objectives, together with funding and performance Departmental Travel indicators/targets. They were set a target of achieving 3 per cent. value for money efficiency savings, year on Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for year, over the period of the funding agreement 2008-09 Culture, Media and Sport on what date he last travelled to 2010-11. by (a) bus and (b) taxi in the course of his official duties. [302722] Gambling Commission: Reviews

Mr. Bradshaw: 26 November and 8 November Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, respectively. Media and Sport what assessment he has made of the compatibility of the operation of the Gambling Edelman UK: Public Relations Commission with the recommendations of the Hampton Review of Regulation. [305118] Mr. Hurd: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport what payments his Department has Mr. Sutcliffe: The Gambling Commission was the made to Edelman in the last 12 months; for what subject of a Hampton Implementation Review earlier purpose; and if he will place in the Library copy of the this year which suggested that, if the Commission’s contract under which such payments have been made. plans were implemented, it would be in a strong position [305133] to demonstrate the Hampton principles throughout its work. The implementation of those plans is a strategic Mr. Simon: No direct payments have been made to objective in the Commission’s 2009 business plan and Edelman by the Department for Culture, Media and my officials and I meet the Commission on a regular Sport in the last 12 months. However, Edelman were basis to consider progress against all of the objectives in engaged through Central Office of Information to provide that plan. The Commission is making good progress on brand and event development support to the Creativity these measures. and Business International Network. Fishburn Hedges: Public Relations Hotels

Mr. Hurd: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Anne Main: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport what payments the Digital Media and Sport how much his Department spent on Switchover Help Scheme has made to Fishburn Hedges hotel accommodation for (a) Ministers, (b) special in the last 12 months; for what purpose; and if he will advisers and (c) civil servants in each of the last five place in the Library a copy of the contract under which years. [305665] such payments have been made. [305132] Mr. Simon: All travel is conducted in accordance with Mr. Simon: The BBC is responsible for administering rules set out in the Department’s staff guide under the Digital Switchover Help Scheme. travel and subsistence and is consistent with the civil Accordingly I have asked the chief executive of the service management code. Travel by Ministers is made scheme to write to the hon. Member for Ruislip Northwood. in pursuance of their ministerial duties and complies Copies of the reply will be placed in the Libraries of with guidance set out in the Ministerial Code. both Houses. Expenditure on hotels is included within travel and subsistence claims made by Ministers and officials. The Gambling Commission: Birmingham information is not held separately or analysed by the categories requested in the Department’s accounting Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, system. It can be obtained by retrieving and manually Media and Sport what the operating costs of the Gambling analysing a large number of travel, subsistence and Commission were in (a) 2007-08 and (b) 2008-09; and incidental expense claims only at disproportionate cost. 373W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 374W

Licensed Premises: Statistics Financial year ending 31 March Number of awards Total awarded (£) Mr. Don Foster: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport if he will place in the Library 2007 1,619 38,144,003 a copy of each response received to the licensing 2008 2,612 173,326,762 questionnaire which formed the basis for the Licensing 2009 2,073 41,420,649 Statistical Bulletin 2009. [304706] Funding made through statutory bodies as third party award partners where the voluntary and community Mr. Sutcliffe: Responses received to the licensing sector organisations are the direct beneficiary have not questionnaire which formed the basis for the Licensing been included in these figures. Statistical Bulletin 2009 are available on the DCMS website: Amounts retained by the statutory third party award partner for administrative costs have been included. http://www.culture.gov.uk/reference_library/publications/ 6387.aspx

National Lottery: Grants SCOTLAND

Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for Departmental Contracts Culture, Media and Sport what estimate he has made of the funds to be distributed from the National Mr. Touhig: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland Lottery to good causes in each year to 2015; and if he what criteria his Department uses in determining the will make a statement. [305356] award of contracts; and how much his Department has spent on the advertisement of tenders for Government Mr. Simon: DCMS does not forecast future Lottery contracts since 1997. [303136] income, but we do issue projections of what income might be if total sales stay at approximately the last Ann McKechin: Other than minor purchases, the year’s level. The latest income projection issued to non- Scotland Office does not undertake discrete procurement Olympic Lottery distributors in September 2009 was as or tendering projects. It utilises existing service contracts follows: between suppliers and the Scottish Executive or the Ministry of Justice. These awarding authorities would £ million take the lead in such matters and would determine the Transfer to criteria for the award of contract. The Office has not Total income Olympics incurred any direct spend on the advertisement of tenders. 2009-10 1,386 292 2010-11 1,391 292 2011-12 1,392 292 2012-13 1,453 136 NORTHERN IRELAND 2013-14 1,488 — Northern Ireland Equality Commission: Public 2014-15 1,492 — Relations The total income column is gross income, i.e. before the Olympic transfers are taken into account. Mr. Hurd: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what payments the Northern Ireland Equality Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Commission has made to Stratagem in the last Media and Sport how much has been distributed by the 12 months; for what purpose; and if he will place in the Big Lottery Fund to statutory bodies in each of the last Library a copy of the contract under which such five years. [305357] payments have been made. [305162]

Mr. Sutcliffe: The Big Lottery Fund has distributed Mr. Woodward: The sponsorship of the Equality funding to statutory bodies where they are best placed Commission for Northern Ireland is a matter for the to deliver outcomes for communities and people most devolved Administration. in need. The Big Lottery Fund does not fund statutory bodies’ core work nor does it substitute or replace Police Service of Northern Ireland statutory funding. Where BIG distributes funding to statutory bodies it is often on the precondition that they Lady Hermon: To ask the Secretary of State for work in partnership with voluntary and community Northern Ireland how much his Department has budgeted sector organisations. for introducing police community support officers to The following table shows the amount awarded to Northern Ireland; and what the budgeted cost of one statutory bodies across the UK by the Big Lottery Fund police officer in Northern Ireland was in the latest each full financial year since its inception on 1 June period for which figures are available. [302941] 2004. Paul Goggins: The 2007 comprehensive spending review Financial year period (CSR07) runs to 31 March 2011. Based on ending 31 March Number of awards Total awarded (£) current plans, the PSNI has not budgeted for the 2006 1,664 59,210,398 introduction of PCSOs in this period. This was agreed by the Chief Constable and the NI Policing Board in 375W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 376W allocating resources for the CSR07 period. The budgeted continues to work, to put the armaments of republican cost of one police officer in Northern Ireland in 2009-10 and loyalist terrorist groups beyond use. By its nature is £45,000. estimates of illegally held weaponry would be speculative and it is not Government practice to provide information Lady Hermon: To ask the Secretary of State for on this basis. Northern Ireland what estimate has been made of the cost to the public purse of introducing police community support officers in Northern Ireland. [302942] ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS Paul Goggins: The 2007 comprehensive spending review Capita period (CSR07) runs to 31 March 2011. Based on current plans, the PSNI has not budgeted for the Mr. Touhig: To ask the Secretary of State for introduction of PCSOs in this period. This was agreed Environment, Food and Rural Affairs on how many by the Chief Constable and the NI Policing Board in occasions Capita Group plc tendered for contracts let allocating resources for the CSR07 period. The estimated by his Department in each of the last five years; how cost of one police community support officer in Northern many such tenders were successful; how much his Ireland is £27,000 per annum but the actual cost would Department paid to Capita Group plc for the execution depend on how they were introduced. Decisions on the of contracts in each such year; how many contracts introduction of PCSOs would be for the Chief Constable which terminate after 2010 Capita Group plc hold with and Policing Board. his Department; and what the monetary value is of all outstanding contracts between his Department and Capita Weapons: Explosives Group plc. [303156]

Lady Hermon: To ask the Secretary of State for Dan Norris: The core-Department does not hold Northern Ireland what his most recent assessment is of centrally information on how many occasions Capita the level of illegally held (a) weapons and (b) explosives Group plc tendered for contracts let in each of the last in Northern Ireland. [304592] five years and how many such tenders were successful. The information could be provided only at disproportionate Paul Goggins: The Independent International cost. From information held centrally the expenditure Commission on Decommissioning has worked, and with the Capita Group since 2005-06 is as follows:

2009-10 (April- 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 October)

Capita Business Services Ltd. 91,672.75 653,407.60 201,571.59 203,859.69 72,598.59 Capita Health Solutions Ltd. 11,414,84 9,527.35 124,278.15 6,184.56 2,284.39 Capita Resourcing Ltd. 408,611.15 273,835.10 354,072.03 479,800.64 315,128.28 Capita Symonds Ltd. 374,023.15 329,480.73 37,461.58 — — Capita Communications — 6,184.57 — — — Capita Trust Company Ltd. — — — 8,781.25 —

From information held centrally the core-Department far reaching impacts including on the UK. I congratulate has no contracts which terminate after 2010. It is not all those involved in the SCAR report in particular possible to calculate the monetary value of all outstanding those UK scientists, most notably from the British contracts between the core-Department and Capita Group Antarctic Survey, who played a leading role. The plc because the contracts may vary in terms, length, Government are committed to the protection of the services, costs and in the demands made upon them. Antarctic environment and strongly support the Antarctic treaty and its environmental protocol. I recently launched Climate Change: Antarctic for consultation the draft Antarctic Bill which will add to the protection we give to Antarctica. The report will be discussed in detail at the Antarctic treaty meeting of Lady Hermon: To ask the Secretary of State for experts on climate change in April 2010 and also at the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment Antarctic treaty consultative meeting in Uruguay in May. he has made of the implications for the UK of the findings of the Scientific Committee on Antarctic Departmental Internet Research report on Antarctic climate change and the environment. [304584] Mr. Heald: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what the cost was of maintaining Mr. Ivan Lewis: I have been asked to reply. his Department’s website in the 2008-09 financial year; The Government welcome this comprehensive and and what the forecast cost is of maintaining websites timely report from the Scientific Committee on Antarctic within his responsibility in the 2009-10 financial year. Research (SCAR) which has been circulated to all [302416] delegations ahead of the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change meeting in Copenhagen for their Dan Norris: Staff costs for the central team with consideration. Antarctica is an important barometer responsibility for updating and maintaining DEFRA’s for global climate change and changes there will have websites are estimated to be around £340,000 in the 377W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 378W

2008-09 financial year, and the same in 2009-10. This Total England (£ million) central team is also responsible for the DEFRA intranet, and the staff costs for the external DEFRA website 2005-06 420.6 alone cannot be readily disaggregated. 2006-07 419.2 Additional costs in 2009-10 of £71,149 have been 2007-08 438.9 incurred for specialist web design, audience research 2008-09 513.9 and web accessibility auditing relating to the relaunch of the DEFRA website in September 2009. This relaunch The following table shows the total expenditure of was the first significant investment in the DEFRA the Yorkshire Regional Flood Defence Committee in website since the creation of the Department in 2001, total and specifically on the City of York. and work on it spanned two financial years. There are no such expenses currently planned for 2010-11. £000 Website hosting services—as well as a range of IT City of York applications—are provided as part of DEFRA’s overall Yorkshire Regional IT service provision and the costs of this aspect of Flood Defence 1 website maintenance cannot be readily disaggregated. Committee Capital Revenue 2 Departmental Taxis 2000-01 28,578 0 582 2001-02 30,715 0 2675 2002-03 41,548 56 2768 Ian Stewart: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what contracts 2003-04 37,330 130 780 his Department has with private hire taxi companies; 2004-05 33,421 0 750 and what expenditure his Department has incurred 2005-06 40,684 120 830 against each such contract in each of the last three 2006-07 34,015 110 650 years. [300832] 2007-08 35,174 24 663 2008-09 41,791 56 676 Dan Norris: The core-Department has no contracts 1 Total spend for Yorkshire and north bank of Humber (including with private hire taxi companies. Paragraph 8.2 of the Yo rk ) 2 Estimates proportioned from Ouse revenue spend civil service management code requires staff use the most efficient and economic means of travel in the circumstances, taking into account any management Marine Management Organisation benefit or the needs of staff with disabilities. On expenditure, I refer my hon. Friend to the answer Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for I gave to the hon. Member for North Southwark and Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether an equality Bermondsey (Simon Hughes) of 21 October 2009, Official impact assessment was published prior to the decision Report, columns 1455-56W. on the future headquarters of the Marine Management Flood Control: Expenditure Organisation being made. [305170] Huw Irranca-Davies: An initial equality impact Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for assessment (EqIA) was published on the Marine and Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much his Fisheries Agency’s (MFA’s) intranet pages prior to the Department has spent on flood protection measures in decision on the future headquarters of the Marine (a) England, (b) Yorkshire and the Humber and (c) Management Organisation being made. the City of York Council area in each year since This was done in the form of an initial assessment on 2000-01. [304591] the relocation project generally taking into account all Huw Irranca-Davies: The following table provides an the shortlisted locations. The finalised ‘full’ version of analysis of Government funding to the Environment the EqIA—which takes account of the more recently Agency for flood risk management between 2000-01 known building location in Newcastle—was published and 2008-09. on 2 November 2009 (having first been discussed with the departmental trade union, including MFA The figures are based upon the annual report and representation). accounts of the Environment Agency. Until 2004-05 the flood risk management function of the Environment Agency was funded primarily through Oils: Waste a combination of grants from DEFRA for specific projects and levies on local authorities. John Thurso: To ask the Secretary of State for Both forms of funding were largely replaced by grant Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what volume of in aid from DEFRA from 2004-05 onwards. waste oils was transhipped as waste for processing outside the UK in each year since 2001; and if he will Total England (£ million) make a statement. [304638] 2000-01 248.9 2001-02 285.6 Dan Norris: The Environment Agency is responsible 2002-03 309.8 for recording the transfrontier shipment of waste oils 2003-04 331.3 for England and Wales. The following table sets out the 2004-05 355.6 quantities of waste oils exported from England and Wales from 2001 to 2008. 379W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 380W

Tonnes North Yorkshire 2001 0 England county City of York 2002 0 CROW 865,119 174,025 188 2003 1,981 Access1 2004 9,015 CROW 153,466 14 ,570 112 2005 20 Section 162 2006 0 1 CROW Access land includes conclusive open country and registered 2007 7,705 common land mapped in accordance with Section 4 of The CROW 2008 9,298 Act 2000, with areas of excepted land (military byelaw, racecourse and aerodromes) and CROW Section 28 restrictions (military and National Security) removed. These data are reported to the secretariat of the Basel 2 CROW Section 16 is land which has been dedicated for the purposes convention. of open access in accordance with Section 16 of The CROW Act 2000. Notes: 1. All figures are in Hectares (calculated using Cartesian area in Organic Farming MapInfo). 2. The figure for CROW Access land together with the figure for CROW Section 16 gives the total access land for a given area. Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate he has made of the amount of land in (a) England and (b) North Yorkshire and York organically farmed in TRANSPORT each year since 1997. [304588] Departmental Electronic Equipment Jim Fitzpatrick: We do not hold this information for years prior to 2002. Mr. Hurd: To ask the Minister of State, Department Organic and In-conversion land in hectares England for Transport with reference to the answer to the Hectares hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge of 1 September 2009, Official Report, columns 1815-6W, 2002 184,045 on departmental electronic equipment, what the purposes 2003 220,197 were of the purchase of 55 DVD players by his 2004 229,626 Department’s agencies. [305150] 2005 238,355 2006 229,861 Chris Mole: As previously advised the Department 2007 258,744 for Transport has spent £55 on DVD players. 2008 283,993 The DVD players were purchased by the Highways Agency and the Vehicle Certification Agency. They are We do not hold specific data for North Yorkshire and used for delivering in-house training with video content, York, but we have data for Yorkshire and Humberside, and for test engineers to show short videos of vehicle as follows. tests. Organic and In-conversion land, in hectares, Yorkshire and Humberside Departmental Information Officers Hectares Mr. Heald: To ask the Minister of State, Department 2002 6,968 for Transport how many full-time equivalent press 2003 8,079 officers (a) are employed by and (b) work for his 2004 8,560 Department. [303606] 2005 8,978 2006 9,032 Chris Mole: The number of full-time equivalent staff 2007 9,625 (FTE) employed on press officer activities on the 1 April 2008 10,899 2009 by the Department for Transport both directly and, where identifiable, indirectly is set out in the following table. Rights of Way Staff (FTE) employed on press officer activities DFT employees Other workers1

Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for DFT(C) 13 Nil Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many hectares DSA 26 0 of land in (a) England and (b) North Yorkshire and DVLA 5 Nil York have been opened to the public under the Countryside GCDA Nil Nil and Rights of Way Act 2000 to date. [304590] HA 11 3 MCA 2 Nil Huw Irranca-Davies: The area of land opened to the VCA Nil Nil public under the Countryside and Rights of Way (CROW) VOSA 1 1 Act 2000 to date in England, North Yorkshire and York 1 Other workers include temporary employment agency staff. is shown in the following table. 2 DSA figure includes fixed term employment 381W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 382W

The staff resource deployed by the Central Office of The contract between the Northern Lighthouse Board Information in providing their regional News and PR and Grayling Political Strategy is a private contract services to parts of the Department can be provided containing commercially sensitive information and therefore only at disproportionate cost. it would be inappropriate to place a copy of the contract The Highways Agency (HA) has seven regional press in the Library. officers to support its new Traffic Officer service and Departmental Taxis seven regional control centres. These press officers are employed to raise awareness of the Traffic Officers and the agency’s role as network operator for England’s Norman Baker: To ask the Minister of State, Department motorways and major A roads. for Transport how many miles (a) Ministers and (b) officials in his Department and its predecessor travelled Departmental Public Relations by taxi in the course of their official duties in each year since 1997; and at what cost to the public purse in each Mr. Hurd: To ask the Minister of State, Department such year. [302704] for Transport what payments the Northern Lighthouse Board has made to Grayling Political Strategy in the Chris Mole: The Department for Transport (DFT) last 12 months for which figures are available; for what and its agencies do not record the mileage of taxi purpose; and if he will place in the Library a copy of journeys, and so this information could be provided the contract under which such payments have been only at disproportionate cost. made. [305128] Available figures for the cost are included in the following table. Four agencies do not record taxi fares Paul Clark: In the 12 months to 31 October 2009, the separately from other travel costs, and could provide the Northern Lighthouse Board paid Grayling Political information only at disproportionate cost. For DFT(c), Strategy £30,606.74. The Northern Lighthouse Board Driving Standards Agency (DSA), Driver and Vehicle has a contract with Grayling Political Strategy to provide Licensing Agency (DVLA) and the Vehicle Certification parliamentary and media monitoring services to highlight Agency (VCA) information for years earlier than those issues directly or indirectly affecting the Board’s activities. shown could be provided only at disproportionate cost.

£ 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09

DFT(c) — 87,163 98,299 138,401 130,764 143,968 137,968 DSA — — — — 11,256 19,839 24,119 DVLA 23,359 36,807 42,276 54,458 64,236 47,195 52,041 VCA — — 1,589 2,581 2,416 2,078 3,562

Departmental Theft and what his Department’s policy is on making jobs available on a job-share or flexible basis. [301331] Grant Shapps: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport how many officials of (a) his Department Chris Mole: Information relating to flexible working and (b) its agencies have (i) been reprimanded, (ii) had in the Department for Transport can be found at the their contract of employment terminated and (iii) been following links in the Department’s website: prosecuted for theft of departmental property in each http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/sustainable/travelplans/ of the last three years; and what items were stolen in dfttravelplan/ each case. [300968] departmentfortransporttravelplan?page=3#a1025 flexible working arrangements. Chris Mole: The Department for Transport have had http://www.dft.gov.uk/about/diversity/esmr/equality/ no employees that have been reprimanded, had their equalitymonitoring0809/pdf/equailtyreport0809.pdf contract of employment terminated nor been prosecuted for theft of departmental property over the last three information on the number of part-time staff. years. http://www.dft.gov.uk/about/diversity/talent1/ diversitystratplan.pdf Six out of the seven Department’s agencies have also had no employees that have been reprimanded, had diversity strategy and delivery plan. their contract of employment terminated nor been http://www.dft.gov.uk/about/diversity/networks/ prosecuted for theft of department property over the flexibleworkingnetworkgroup last three years. However, the seventh agency, The Driver flexible working network group. Vehicle and Licensing Agency, is unable to provide the http://www.civilservice.gov.uk/news/2009/june/job-share.aspx information requested as it would involve disproportionate information relating to the civil service job share notice costs. board. Departmental Working Hours Driving Andrew Selous: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport how many and what proportion of staff Dr. Ladyman: To ask the Minister of State, Department of his Department, its executive agencies and non- for Transport what mechanisms are in place to ensure departmental public bodies work flexibly or part-time; that staff who drive (a) a vehicle for which (i) his 383W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 384W

Department and (ii) one of its executive agencies is Safety camera Number of responsible have valid driving licences and (b) their Scheme Location partnership cameras own vehicles in the course of their official duties for (A) his Department and (B) one of its executive agencies Newton Farm resurfacing/ J3-J4 West Mercia 14 barrier replacement works Safety Camera have valid driving licences and insurance; what guidance Partnership is issued to those staff in respect of road safety while carrying out official duties; what steps are taken to As explained in my answer of 25 November 2009, monitor compliance with that guidance; what requirements Official Report, column 132W,the other types of cameras there are on such staff to report to their line managers are not used for the detection of traffic offences. accidents in which they are involved while driving in the Traffic offences are administered by the relevant Safety course of their official duties; and whether such reports Camera Partnership Group and the Highways Agency are investigated. [302172] does not keep records of these. Any enquiries relating to offences detected in the last 12 months would therefore Chris Mole: The Department for Transport has a have to be addressed directly to the Gloucester Safety departmental Driving at Work policy that includes the Camera Partnership and the West Mercia Safety Camera requirement for every driver or rider to hold a valid Partnership respectively, for the above locations. driving licence. If drivers or riders use their own vehicles they must also have appropriate insurance provision. Norwich-London Railway Line Further detailed arrangements vary according to the exact business need in each Agency and the central Department. Mr. Ruffley: To ask the Minister of State, Department All staff who drive or ride on departmental business for Transport on how many occasions bus transport have their driving licences and insurance provision checked was provided instead of rail for all or part of the by line management or in the case of DVLA by a journey due to (a) routine and (b) non-routine dedicated team. Usually this is by visual inspection but maintenance on the Norwich to London Liverpool in some parts of the Department it is done by self- Street railway line in (i) 2007, (ii) 2008 and (iii) 2009 to certification supported by management checks. There date. [302432] are regular reviews of the appropriate documentation that vary between six months to a year or whenever Chris Mole: The Department for Transport does not there is a change of circumstances. hold the information requested. In the case of maintenance, Detailed guidance is available to all staff in respect of either routine or otherwise, the decision to replace rail road safety while on departmental business and line with bus transport will be taken by the train operating managers are responsible for monitoring arrangements. company and Network Rail. Guidance includes practical advice like checking vehicles prior to a journey, planning journeys and the need for Railways: Scotland regular breaks, using seat belts, not using a mobile phone while driving. Staff are required to report all accidents via the Norman Baker: To ask the Minister of State, Department internal arrangements in their Agency or the Central for Transport whether East Coast plans to continue to Department. Reporting requirements includes accidents run direct passenger rail services from London to Glasgow while driving in the course of their official duties. All via Edinburgh. [304271] accidents are investigated. Chris Mole: The timetable has not been decided as M5: Automatic Number Plate Recognition the stakeholder consultation exercise has not yet taken place. Options for rail services on the East Coast mainline are being examined, but no decision has been taken. Mr. Greg Knight: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport pursuant to the answer of Railways: Standards 25 November 2009, Official Report, column 132W, on M5: cameras, how many automatic number plate recognition cameras are in use for the detection of Norman Baker: To ask the Minister of State, traffic offences on the M5; and if he will list the offences Department for Transport with reference to the answer so detected in the last 12 months. [303439] of 9 November 2009, Official Report, columns 56-8W, on railways: standards, if he will provide a table Chris Mole [holding answer 2 December 2009]: The showing the number of trains cancelled by each train average speed cameras currently in use on the M5 to operating company in each of the last five years given secure speed limit compliance through roadworks are as a percentage of all trains scheduled to run; and if he shown in the table. will provide the same information in respect of peak hour trains in London and the South East. [301248] Safety camera Number of Scheme Location partnership cameras Chris Mole [holding answer 24 November 2009]: The Gloucester Driver Information J11a-13 Gloucester 8 table requested is as follows, showing the number of Scheme—new signs providing Safety Camera trains cancelled by each franchised train operator in drivers with real time advance Partnership information on road conditions each of the last five years as a percentage of all trains scheduled to run. Data is given for the five most recent financial years, including 2009-10 up to October 2009. 385W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 386W

Percentage of all scheduled trains cancelled Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, Department Percentage for Transport which rail franchises include mandatory 2009-10 provisions for introducing Integrated Transport Smartcard (to Train October Organisation-compliant ticket systems; and when such operator 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009) a system is to be implemented under the terms of each franchise. [300739] ATW 1.1 0.7 0.5 0.4 0.2 c2c 1.2 1.1 1.1 0.8 0.6 Chiltern 1.4 0.9 0.7 0.7 0.7 Chris Mole: South West Trains, London Midland, CrossCountry 1.6 1.4 1.3 1.2 1.1 East Coast, Southern, Arriva Cross Country and East East 1.5 1.5 1.6 1.0 0.7 Midlands Trains all have smartcard obligations. The Midlands Trains specific details of these commitments are commercially FCC 1.7 1.6 1.3 1.7 1.3 sensitive as they will be the subject of competitive FGW 1.0 1.5 1.8 0.9 0.6 tender by the respective train operator and therefore are London 1.6 1.5 1.4 1.9 1.2 not in the public domain. Midland London 2.1 1.7 1.8 0.9 0.9 Overground Merseyrail 1.5 1.0 0.9 0.8 0.6 Northern 0.7 1.0 1.1 0.8 0.7 Roads: Accidents Rail NXEA 1.3 1.6 1.2 1.1 0.9 NXEC 1.3 1.9 2.3 1.4 1.2 Mr. Rob Wilson: To ask the Minister of State, Southeastern 1.1 0.9 0.9 1.2 0.6 Department for Transport how many road traffic accidents Southern 1.1 0.9 0.9 1.3 0.7 in (a) Berkshire and (b) Reading East constituency SWT 0.9 1.0 0.7 1.1 0.4 involved drivers without a licence in each of the last five TPE 1.1 1.0 0.9 1.0 0.5 years. [304634] Virgin 1.0 1.3 0.9 2.5 1.3 Trains Paul Clark: Information about whether drivers involved The equivalent detail for peak hour trains in London in road accidents hold a licence is not held centrally. and the South East is as follows: Percentage of scheduled peak hour trains cancelled Miss McIntosh: To ask the Minister of State, Department Percentage for Transport how many deaths in road traffic accidents 2009-10 (to there have been on roads in (a) Vale of York constituency, October (b) North Yorkshire and (c) England in each year 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009) since 1994. [305240] c2c 1.2 1.2 1.0 0.9 0.5 Chiltern 1.6 1.3 1.0 1.0 0.8 Paul Clark: The information requested is given in the FCC 1.9 1.7 1.4 1.9 1.1 table: FGW 1.2 1.6 1.8 1.3 0.7 ‘Link’Only Number of fatalities in reported personal injury road accidents in (a) Vale of London 0.5 1.0 0.7 2.4 1.0 York constituency, (b) North Yorkshire County and (c) England: 1994-2008 Midland Number of fatalities London 1.2 1.0 1.1 1.0 0.9 (a) Vale of (b) North Overground Accident year York1 Yorkshire2 (c) England NXEA 1.6 1.9 1.6 1.2 1.1 1994 18 84 3,077 Southeastern 1.3 1.1 1.1 1.6 0.9 1995 16 92 2,995 Southern 1.3 1.1 0.9 1.3 0.8 1996 13 79 3,024 SWT 1.2 0.8 0.8 1.3 0.4 1997 21 87 3,001 1998 18 88 2,834 1999 5 68 2,922 Railways: Tickets 2000 18 90 2,915 2001 14 82 2,916 Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, Department 2002 26 95 2,980 for Transport on which rail networks Integrated Transport 2003 19 88 3,004 Smartcard Organisation ticket systems are in use. 2004 7 80 2,714 [300738] 2005 13 85 2,735 2006 10 69 2,695 Chris Mole: South West Trains has an ITSO smartcard 2007 26 81 2,502 pilot in operation between Staines and Windsor and 2008 7 52 2,123 1 Based on 2004 constituency boundary. Eton Riverside. Another pilot is planned for the Worcester 2 Includes unitary authority of City of York. area shortly on London Midland services. Both are precursors to wider rollouts in future. On 23 November we announced the launch of pay as you go (PAYG) in Miss McIntosh: To ask the Minister of State, Department London from 2 January 2010 which will allow us of for Transport what the rates of road accidents resulting Oyster on London rail services. in death or serious injury per 100,000 head of resident 387W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 388W population were for (a) North Yorkshire, (b) Yorkshire Paul Clark: The information requested is given in the and the Humber and (c) England in each year since following tables: 1994. [305306] (a) Reported road accidents involving an adult1 killed or seriously injured in (i) North Yorkshire county, (ii) London, (iii) Lancashire county and (iv) England: 1994-2008 Paul Clark: The information requested is given in the Number of accidents table: Accident (i) North (iii) 2 3 Reported fatal or serious road accidents per 100,000 population in (a) North year Yorkshire (ii) London Lancashire (iv) England Yorkshire county, (b) Yorkshire and the Humber Government Office Region and (c) England: 1994-2008 1994 835 4,530 1,212 30,271 Accidents per 100,000 population 1995 791 4,758 1,172 29,934 (a) North (b) Yorkshire 1996 765 5,019 1,034 29,705 Accident year Yorkshire1 and the Humber (c) England 1997 843 5,276 1,028 29,251 1998 701 5,190 872 27,821 1994 166 73 75 1999 753 4,612 845 26,734 1995 158 75 74 2000 656 4,748 783 26,479 1996 155 71 73 2001 692 4,710 850 25,984 1997 166 70 71 2002 705 4,419 776 25,514 1998 137 66 67 2003 676 4,097 769 24,568 1999 145 65 64 2004 630 3,280 718 22,516 2000 126 62 63 2005 593 2,892 768 21,337 2001 130 63 61 2006 663 3,084 819 21,396 2002 131 64 59 2007 631 2,956 759 20,915 2003 124 62 56 2008 506 2,724 717 19,312 2004 117 59 52 1 Aged 16 years and over. 2005 108 54 48 2 Includes York Unitary Authority. 2006 117 55 48 3 Includes Blackburn and Blackpool Unitary Authorities. 2007 112 55 46 (b) Reported road accidents involving a child1 killed or seriously injured in 2008 90 49 42 (i) North Yorkshire county, (ii) London, (iii) Lancashire county and (iv) England: 1994-2008 1 Includes York Unitary Authority Number of accidents Accident (i) North (iii) Miss McIntosh: To ask the Minister of State, Department year Yorkshire2 (ii) London Lancashire3 (iv) England for Transport how many road accidents resulted in 1994 105 847 291 5,889 minor injury in (a) North Yorkshire, (b) London, (c) 1995 100 908 300 5,740 Lancashire and (d) England in each year since 1994. 1996 120 870 273 5,561 [305307] 1997 105 912 262 5,213 1998 84 921 210 4,938 Paul Clark: The information requested is given in the 1999 85 732 211 4,593 following table: 2000 71 702 165 4,216 2001 59 694 201 4,090 Reported road accidents involving slight injuries1 in (a) North Yorkshire county, (b) London, (c) Lancashire county and (d) England: 1994-2008 2002 63 593 167 3,725 Number of accidents 2003 55 522 144 3,322 Accident (a) North (c) 2004 65 456 140 3,197 year Yorkshire2 (b) London Lancashire3 (d) England 2005 53 334 150 2,869 2006 43 372 174 2,668 1994 2,500 33,901 5,357 179,789 2007 46 315 145 2,561 1995 2,550 33,180 5,084 177,225 2008 38 305 128 2,310 1996 2,647 33,435 5,378 183,888 1 Aged 0 to 15 years. 1997 2,663 33,634 5,529 188,328 2 Includes York Unitary Authority. 1998 2,731 33,179 5,366 188,486 3 Includes Blackburn and Blackpool Unitary Authorities. 1999 2,736 33,879 4,965 186,701 Rolling Stock: Procurement 2000 2,637 33,233 4,806 186,595 2001 2,652 32,219 5,134 182,649 2002 2,702 29,762 5,082 176,000 Norman Baker: To ask the Minister of State, 2003 2,644 27,898 4,613 169,659 Department for Transport if he will exercise his option 2004 2,620 25,586 4,874 164,885 to order the remaining carriages for the Pendolino fleet 2005 2,292 23,925 4,836 158,516 before the end of 2009. [304272] 2006 2,106 21,762 4,628 149,465 2007 2,138 20,339 4,595 143,540 Chris Mole: The option to extend the remaining 21 2008 1,981 20,371 4,375 134,036 Pendolino trains to 11 carriages is currently being considered 1 Includes accidents where fatal or serious injuries were also recorded. by the Department for Transport and an announcement 2 Includes York Unitary Authority. will be made in due course. 3 Includes Blackburn and Blackpool Unitary Authorities. Speed Limits: East Sussex Miss McIntosh: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport how many road accidents resulted in the Norman Baker: To ask the Minister of State, Department death or serious injury of (a) an adult and (b) a child for Transport how many speed cameras there were in in (i) North Yorkshire, (ii) London, (iii) Lancashire and East Sussex on the latest date for which information is (iv) England in each year since 1994. [305308] available. [304281] 389W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 390W

Paul Clark: Separate information about cameras Number of sales (2004-05 operating in East Sussex is not held. The number of RSL code RSL name to 2008-09) camera sites operating in Sussex at the end of the National Safety Camera programme, which ended on LH4343 Knowsley Housing 1,550 31 March 2007, was 81. Since then, the deployment of Trust safety cameras has been the responsibility of individual L3076 Home Group Ltd. 1,020 local partnerships. The number of cameras currently in L0715 Derwent Housing 1,000 place will therefore be a matter for East and West Association Ltd. Sussex county councils and the local road safety partnership. L4441 Wakefield and District 940 Housing Ltd. L4431 Erimus Housing Ltd. 910 L0014 Peabody Trust 820 COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT L0659 Places for People 730 L0037 Riverside Housing 700 Council Housing: Finance LH0250 Liverpool Housing 690 Trust Ltd. Jim Cousins: To ask the Secretary of State for L4342 Coast and Country 690 Communities and Local Government when he plans to Housing Ltd. announce the conclusions on his Department’s review Source: Regulatory and Statistical Returns (RSR) to the Tenant Services of the financing of council housing. [305568] Authority (TSA) from registered social landlords The RSR returns do not include details on the monetary Mr. Ian Austin: Consultation on my right hon. Friend value of RSL properties sold to sitting tenants. Details the Minister for Housing’s proposals to replace the on RSL capital receipts are available from continuous housing revenue account subsidy system with a devolved recording (CORE) returns to the TSA, but these exclude system of responsibility and funding for council housing sales by smaller RSLs and therefore under-record the closed on Tuesday 27 October. We intend to set out our number of RSL sales and the capital receipts. plans for implementing reform early next year. These figures include all social housing sales to sitting Council Housing: Sales tenants. They do not include sales of new build properties through HomeBuy sales, or sales and transfers between Margaret Moran: To ask the Secretary of State for local authorities and RSLs. Communities and Local Government which 10 (a) local authorities and (b) registered social landlords Departmental Electronic Equipment have sold the largest number of dwellings in the last five years; how many dwellings each sold in that period; Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for and what the monetary value of such dwellings was. Communities and Local Government what the average [304456] yearly running costs of a photocopier in his Department, excluding value added tax and including all service fees Mr. Ian Austin: The following table shows which local and rental costs, was in the latest period for which authorities have sold the largest number of social homes figures are available. [305940] to sitting tenants over the last five years, the number of properties sold, and the value of these sales: Barbara Follett: The Department uses a variety of photocopying devices which we obtain from different Number of sales suppliers through the Office of Government Commerce (2004-05 to Market value Buying Solutions. The calculation of average running LA code LA name 2008-09) (£ million) costs could only be achieved at disproportionate cost. 00DA Leeds 4,270 297.8 00CN Birmingham 4,050 308.5 Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for 00BN Manchester 3,950 251.7 Communities and Local Government what the average 00BE Southwark 3,040 383.5 purchase price, excluding value added tax, was of a 00CG Sheffield 2,890 167.4 500 sheet ream of white A4 photocopier paper by his 00FA Kingston upon 2,340 116.1 Department in the latest period for which figures are Hull available. [305941] 00CE Doncaster 2,310 130.5 00BR Salford 2,060 122.6 Barbara Follett: As part of its commitment to the 00CJ Newcastle upon 1,940 115.3 Government’s sustainable procurement agenda the Tyne department uses 100 per cent. recycled A4 80 gsm 00FY Nottingham 1,910 131.5 copier paper at a current average cost of £2.02 for a Source: 500 sheet ream. P1B returns to CLG from local authorities The market value of these properties includes the Departmental Freedom of Information capital receipts received and the value of any discounts available. Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for The following table shows which registered social Communities and Local Government how many requests landlords have sold the largest number of social homes under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 his to sitting tenants over the last five years, and the number Department received in 2008; and how many of these of properties sold: received a substantive response within 20 days. [305500] 391W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 392W

Barbara Follett: The information requested can be Number of questions found in tables 1 and 2 of the Ministry of Justice’s Number of questions provided a Report ‘Annual Statistics on the Operation of the FoI tabled for answer on substantive answer Act in Central Government, 2008’. This can be located Month a named day on the day named at: 2009 http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/docs/foi-statistics- report-2008.pdf November 114 70 October 68 49 Departmental Official Hospitality September 54 39 August o - Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State July 76 70 for Communities and Local Government how much June 102 93 (a) his Department and (b) its agencies spent on (i) May 50 42 alcohol and (ii) entertainment in the last 12 months. April 75 74 [305541] March 109 104 February 91 72 Barbara Follett: The Department does not hold this January 46 41 information centrally and it could be supplied only at disproportionate cost. 2008 The Planning Inspectorate has had no expenditure on alcohol and entertainment in the last 12 months. December 37 30 Fire Service College has spent £1,531 on business entertainment in the financial year 2009-10 to date. Information on alcohol expenditure can be provided Empty Property: Greater London only at disproportionate cost. Queen Elizabeth II Conference Centre has incurred Mr. Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for £743 in entertaining expenditure during the last 12 months. Communities and Local Government what estimate he has made of the number of empty (a) residential and All expenditure on hospitality is made in accordance (b) commercial properties in the London borough of with published departmental guidance on financial (i) Bexley, (ii) Bromley, (iii) Croydon and (iv) Greenwich procedures and propriety, based on principles set out in in the last three years for which figures are available. Government Accounting and the Treasury handbook [304995] on Regularity and Propriety. Departmental Scientists Barbara Follett: The number of empty domestic dwellings in the London boroughs of Bexley, Bromley, Croydon Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for and Greenwich in 2007, 2008 and 2009 are shown in the Communities and Local Government how many (a) following table. The data include both short-term and scientific advisers and (b) civil servants in scientific long-term empty dwellings. posts there are in his Department. [302028] Number of empty domestic dwellings 200720082009 Barbara Follett: There are currently 15 civil servants in scientific posts in Communities and Local Government. Bexley 2,247 2,123 2,059 This does not include information on scientific posts in Bromley 3,537 3,617 3,613 departmental agencies, which is not held centrally. Croydon 4,053 3,599 4,066 Greenwich 3,294 3,404 3,497 Departmental Sick Leave The data are taken from the council tax base (CTB) Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for and CTB(Supplementary) forms completed annually in Communities and Local Government how many days October by all billing authorities in England and returned staff absence as a result of (a) snow and (b) other to Communities and Local Government. weather conditions were recorded by local authorities Details of the number of empty non-domestic in the last 12 months. [305563] hereditaments are not currently available. Barbara Follett: The information requested is not held centrally. Empty Property: Tyne and Wear Departmental Written Questions Jim Cousins: To ask the Secretary of State for John Mason: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how many empty Communities and Local Government how many questions properties there were in each tenure sector in each local tabled for answer on a named day his Department authority in Tyne and Wear in each April from 2004 to received in each of the last 12 months; and to how many 2009. [302538] such questions his Department provided a substantive answer on the day named. [305377] Barbara Follett: Details of the number of empty domestic dwellings in each of the five local authorities Barbara Follett: The information requested is provided in the Tyne and Wear area for 2004 to 2009 are shown in in the following table: the following table. 393W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 394W

2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 Local authority Scheme Threshold (£)

Gateshead 5,488 6,162 5,180 4,989 5,715 5,583 East Lindsey District Summer floods 41,216 Newcastle 6,141 5,829 5,595 5,710 4,811 4,385 Council 2007 upon Tyne East Riding of Yorkshire Summer floods 758,249 North 2,877 2,818 2,841 2,992 3,186 3,209 Council 2007 Tyneside Gloucester City Council Summer floods 33,470 South 1,997 2,282 2,396 2,411 2,389 2,305 2007 Tyneside Gloucestershire County Summer floods 1,209,229 Sunderland 4,114 4,477 4,652 4,431 4,440 4,183 Council 2007 Gloucestershire Police Summer floods 191,318 The data are both short-term and long-term empty Authority 2007 dwellings as reported annually by all billing authorities Hereford and Worcester Fire Summer floods 56,572 in England in October of the year. Data are not collected And Rescue Authority 2007 in April. Herefordshire Council Summer floods 408,526 No estimates of empty non-domestic properties have 2007 been published. Humberside Fire and Summer floods 88,443 Rescue Services 2007 Kingston Upon Hull City Summer floods 691,077 Flood Control: Finance Council 2007 Lichfield District Council Summer floods 21,293 Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for 2007 Communities and Local Government how much Malvern Hills District Summer floods 17,055 funding, in cash terms, each local authority in England Council 2007 which applied for Bellwin funding in each of the last Newark And Sherwood Summer floods 31,398 three years did not receive back in compensation as a District Council 2007 result of the 0.2 per cent. grant threshold in the Bellwin North East Derbyshire Summer floods 25,322 fund limiting the amount of compensation that a District Council 2007 council receives. [305929] North Lincolnshire Council Summer floods 396,760 2007 Barbara Follett: The threshold has been set at 0.2 per Oxford City Council Summer floods 54,099 cent. of a local authority’s calculated annual revenue 2007 budget. This is because the Government, throughout Rotherham Met Borough Summer floods 701,482 the lifetime of the Bellwin scheme, has thought it reasonable Council 2007 to expect authorities to cover costs themselves up to a Scarborough Borough Summer floods 39,709 Council 2007 certain level. Every local authority is required to maintain Sheffield City Council Summer floods 1,393,290 reserves, one of whose main purposes is to meet unexpected 2007 costs. Successive Governments have retained the threshold Shropshire County Council Summer floods 599,949 and it has never been waived, even during the 1987 2007 storms, the 2000 floods, the foot-and-mouth crisis or South Shropshire District Summer floods 13,700 the 2007 summer floods. Council 2007 The following table shows the threshold applied for South Yorkshire Fire and Summer floods 109,744 each local authority that received Bellwin funding within Rescue Authority 2007 the last three years: Stratford on Avon District Summer floods 25,692 Council 2007 Local authority Scheme Threshold (£) Stroud District Council Summer floods 28,257 2007 Babergh District Council Babergh Storm 18,879 Tewkesbury Borough Summer floods 15,642 January 2007 Council 2007 Shepway District Council Folkestone 36,395 Vale of White Horse District Summer floods 23,261 Earthquake April Council 2007 2007 Warwick District Council Summer floods 33,890 Barnsley Met Borough Summer floods 579,755 2007 Council 2007 Bassetlaw District Council Summer floods 31,864 West Berkshire Council Summer floods 368,367 2007 2007 Bridgenorth District Summer floods 11,966 West Lindsey District Summer floods 26,026 Council 2007 Council 2007 Cheltenham Borough Summer floods 31,321 West Oxfordshire District Summer floods 17,976 Council 2007 Council 2007 Chesterfield Borough Summer floods 27,833 Worcester City Council Summer floods 25,291 Council 2007 2007 City of Lincoln Council Summer floods 31,337 Wychavon District Council Summer floods 23,841 2007 2007 Cotswold District Council Summer floods 20,119 Wyre Forest District Council Summer floods 28,144 2007 2007 Derbyshire Dales District Summer floods 19,232 Great Yarmouth Borough Norfolk Storms 28,704 Council 2007 Council November 2007 Doncaster Met Borough Summer floods 745,486 North Norfolk District Norfolk storms 27,484 Council 2007 Council November 2007 395W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 396W

Local authority Scheme Threshold (£) Social homes sold by LAs and RSLs to sitting Barnsley Met Borough January floods 1n/a Private sector sales tenants Council 2008 Newark and Sherwood January floods 1n/a 2000 426,018 16,750 District Council 2008 2001 462,657 16,520 North Lincolnshire Council January floods 1n/a 2002 489,901 19,640 2008 2003 438,270 19,560 Oxford City Council January floods 1n/a 2004 443,117 12,500 2008 2005 370,601 6,920 Vale of White Horse District January floods 1n/a 2006 470,621 5,020 Council 2008 2007 451,438 3,170 West Oxfordshire District January floods 1n/a Council 2008 2008 234,041 820 Castle Morpeth Borough September floods 14,122 Council 2008 Figures on private sector sales are from Land Registry Herefordshire Council September floods 432,525 date, and are based on changes of ownership of properties 2008 at market value price. Sales below market value (such as Shropshire County Council September floods 631,994 right to buy) are excluded from the private sector sales. 2008 Sales at under £1,000 and sales above £20 million have 1 The threshold applies to annual spending and not to spending on been excluded. Some properties may have been sold each incident. So authorities who report more than one incident in more than once during the period. the same financial year take spending on all reported incidents into Figures on social homes sold are from quarterly P1B account in calculating whether they have exceeded the threshold. In the table above, all the authorities affected by the January 2008 returns to CLG from local authorities, and from regulatory floods had already incurred the annual threshold as part of their and statistical returns (RSR) to the Tenant Services claims for the 2007 summer floods which was in the same financial Authority (TSA) from registered social landlords. They year, so it was not applied for this subsequent scheme. include sales to sitting tenants through right to buy, Hotels preserved right to buy, right to acquire, rent to mortgage, and voluntary purchase grant. large scale voluntary transfers (LSVTs) of local authority stock to RSLs are Anne Main: To ask the Secretary of State for not included in the figures. Communities and Local Government how much his Department spent on hotel accommodation for (a) Local authorities that are classed as rural under the Ministers, (b) special advisers and (c) civil servants in DEFRA rural codes have been included and local authorities classed as urban by DEFRA have been each of the last five years. [305668] filtered out. 178 local authorities have been defined as Barbara Follett: I refer the hon. Member to the rural by the DEFRA rural definition (2004). answer I gave to the hon. Member for Putney (Justine Local Government Finance Greening) on 22 October 2009, Official Report, column 1642W. Sandra Gidley: To ask the Secretary of State for Figures for earlier years and disaggregating for Ministers, Communities and Local Government what estimate he special advisers and civil servant could be achieved only has made of the effect of cancellation of property at disproportionate cost. developments on revenue from rates in the latest period for which figures are available. [302309] Housing: Rural Areas Barbara Follett: No estimate of the effect of cancellation Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for of property developments on revenue from non-domestic Communities and Local Government whether he has business rates has been made. made an estimate of the number of homes in rural areas which have changed ownership in each year since Mark Simmonds: To ask the Secretary of State for 1997. [305354] Communities and Local Government how much of the £250 million local government efficiency savings Mr. Ian Austin [holding answer 8 December 2009]: referred to in the Department of Health consultation We have assumed that the number of homes in rural document on Personal Care at Home he expects to be areas which have changed ownership is made up of made from each budget of each local authority. private sector sales and LA and RSL dwellings that [304698] have been sold to sitting tenants. The estimated number of homes in rural areas which Barbara Follett: The commitment to offer free personal has changed ownership in each year since 1997 is presented care at home to those with highest needs is expected to as follows: cost up to £670 million per full year. The Government, through the Department of Health, will provide the Social homes sold by LAs bulk of this funding (£420 million per full year). It is and RSLs to sitting right that councils play their part, and the remainder of Private sector sales tenants the funding will come from efficiencies in local government. 1997 427,317 15,890 However, it is not for central Government to micro-manage 1998 405,767 14,540 the budgets of local authorities. They are best placed to 1999 463,149 19,970 make decisions on how to fund this important commitment. It is for this reason that the additional funding being 397W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 398W provided by central Government will be distributed on The amount of formula grant an authority receives a non-ringfenced basis. The Department of Health is each year is not directly comparable due to changes in consulting separately on the formulae that will be used funding and functions. For example, prior to 2006-07 for distributing the grant to councils. funding for schools was included within formula grant; from 2006-07 onwards funding for schools was provided Mark Simmonds: To ask the Secretary of State for by the dedicated schools grant. For this reason, we Communities and Local Government what steps he therefore adjust the prior year’s formula grant, for plans to take to ensure the delivery of the £250 million comparison purposes only, so that it reflects the notional local government efficiency savings referred to in the amount of formula grant an authority would have Department of Health consultation document on received in that year had we been financing the same Personal Care at Home. [304699] services as in the current year. The Department only holds data on year-on-year Barbara Follett: The Government are investing an changes in formula grant on a like-for-like basis from unprecedented £450 million in supporting local government 1997-98. This is because it only became necessary to to deliver transformation, improvement and efficiency make these calculations when guarantees were introduced in the three years to 2010-11. With this support, local that formula grant would not go down from one year to government has shown the capacity to generate significant the next. levels of efficiency. Since 2004-05, local government has delivered £4.5 billion in efficiency savings. Last year Mersey Coastal Park alone, as part of the Government’s efficiency drive, local authorities reported a £1.7 billion saving on their Ben Chapman: To ask the Secretary of State for £5.5 billion target between 2008-09 and 2010-11. Work Communities and Local Government what assistance is already under way through Total Place and Smarter his Department has made available for the implementation Government to identify new ways of maintaining high of the Mersey Coastal Park Strategy; and if he will quality local services in a time of public expenditure make a statement. [304834] constraint. And at a time when prices are falling everywhere, local government will be given a 4 per cent. increase in Ms Rosie Winterton: The Mersey Coastal Park strategy total government grant next year. has yet to be finalised and I can confirm that the Department has not provided any direct support. The Local Government Finance: Chorley Northwest Regional Development Agency are in discussion with partners in order to ensure the strategy builds on Mr. Hoyle: To ask the Secretary of State for previous funding and maximises the potential for private Communities and Local Government how much sector investment. funding Chorley borough council received from the rate support grant in each year since 1997. [305344] Multiple Occupation

Barbara Follett: The following table shows the increases Jim Cousins: To ask the Secretary of State for for Chorley borough council in formula grant for each Communities and Local Government when he plans to year from 1998-99 onwards on a like-for-like basis i.e. announce his conclusions on his Department’s review after adjusting for changes in function and funding. of the planning rules for houses in multiple occupation. [305567] Prior years Current adjusted year’s Mr. Ian Austin: We are currently considering the formula formula grant1 (£ grant2 (£ Change Percentage responses to the consultation on houses in multiple million) million) (£ million) Change occupation and possible planning responses. We aim to make an announcement on the way forward shortly. 1998-99 5.505 5.290 -0.215 -3.9 1999-2000 5.290 5.428 0.139 2.6 Non-Domestic Rates 2000-01 5.428 5.676 0.248 4.6 2001-02 5.715 5.888 0.173 3.0 Justine Greening: To ask the Secretary of State for 2002-03 5.789 6.105 0.316 5.5 Communities and Local Government what the (a) Amended 5.948 6.691 0.743 12.5 2003-04 small business multiplier and (b) national non- Amended 5.972 6.309 0.338 5.7 domestic multiplier was in (i) 2007-08, (ii) 2008-09 and 2004-05 (iii) 2009-10; and what the provisional multipliers are Amended 6.336 6.655 0.319 5.0 for 2010-11. [304889] 2005-06 2006-073 7.378 7.698 0.320 4.3 Barbara Follett: Details of the small business rate 2007-08 7.671 8.008 0.337 4.4 multiplier and the national non-domestic rates multipliers 2008-09 8.063 8.221 0.158 2.0 for 2007-08 to 2009-10 are shown in the following table: 2009-10 8.221 8.358 0.137 1.67 2010-11 8.358 8.487 0.129 1.5 Pence provisional Small business rate National non-domestic 1 The prior year’s formula grant is adjusted for changes in function and funding multiplier rates multiplier to enable a like-for-like comparison. 2 Formula Grant comprises Revenue Support Grant, redistributed business 2007-08 44.1 44.4 rates, principal formula Police Grant, SSA Reduction Grant (SSA Review), 2008,09 45.8 46.2 SSA Reduction Grant (Police Funding Review) and Central Support Protection Grant where appropriate. 2009-10 48.l 48.5 3 Prior to 2006-07 support for schools was paid through formula grant. In 2010-11 40.7 41.4 2006-07 funding for schools transferred to the Dedicated Schools Grant. 399W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 400W

Justine Greening: To ask the Secretary of State for Percentage Communities and Local Government how much was change when collected in business rates after the deduction of reliefs compared to in (a) 2007-08 and (b) 2008-09; and what estimate he Pence 2009-10 has made of the equivalent figures in (i) 2009-10 and 2009-10 Small Business Multiplier 48.1 — (ii) 2010-11. [304890] 2010-11 Small Business Multiplier 41.3 -14.1 (zero inflation, as published in the consultation document) Barbara Follett: Details of the amount of non-domestic 2010-11 Small Business Multiplier 40.7 -15.4 rates collected, after the deduction of reliefs, but before (including September 2009 RPI, the deduction of the cost of collection or losses, in and same assumptions as in the 2007-08 and 2008-09 and corresponding estimates for consultation document 2009-10 and 2010-11 are given in the following table. The national non-domestic multiplier is determined £ million by adding a supplement to the small business multiplier to fund the estimated cost of the small business rate 2007-08 17,369 relief scheme. In 2009-10 this supplement was 0.4p, 2008-09 19,072 bringing the national non-domestic multiplier to 48.5p. 2009-10 20,623 For 2010-11, the supplement is estimated at 0.7p, bringing 2010-11 20,791 the provisional national non-domestic multiplier to 41.4p. The percentage change between the two is -14.6 per The five-yearly business rates revaluations make sure cent. each business pays its fair contribution and no more by The five-yearly business rates revaluations make sure ensuring that the share of the national rates bill paid by each business pays its fair contribution and no more by any one of them reflects changes over time in the value ensuring the share of the national rates bill paid by any of their property relative to others. The 2010 revaluation one business reflects changes over time in the value of will not raise a single extra penny for Government over their property relative to others. The 2010 revaluation the five years of the 2010 list because, although initially will not raise a single extra penny for Government. we will collect 1.5 per cent. more in 2010-11, this will be Over a million properties will see their business rate reduced in later years by appeals. Once all these appeals liabilities come down as a result of revaluation. The have been settled we expect the amount collected in Government intend to put in place a £2 billion relief 2010-11 to be less then that in 2009-10. scheme to limit the impact on the minority with bill Over a million properties will see their business rate increases. That is on top of the wider support available liabilities come down as a result of revaluation. The to help ease business pressures including discounted Government intend to put in place a £2 billion relief rate bills for small businesses and deferring tax payments. scheme to limit the impact on the minority with bill increases. That is on top of the wider support available to help ease business pressures including discounted Non-Domestic Rates: Empty Property rate bills for small businesses and deferring tax payments. Justine Greening: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how many Justine Greening: To ask the Secretary of State for hereditaments were in receipt of empty property relief Communities and Local Government what the in (a) 2006-07, (b) 2007-08 and (c) 2008-09; and what percentage change in the (a) small business and (b) estimate he has made of the equivalent figure in national non-domestic multiplier will be between 2009-10. [304883] 2009-10 and 2010-11; what proportion of this change is attributable to (i) changes in rateable value arising from the 2010 revaluation and (ii) the level of retail price Barbara Follett: Local authorities reported to index inflation in September 2009; and whether the Communities and Local Government that there were percentage change in collectable rates and the relevant 186,400 hereditaments in receipt of empty property multipliers will match. [304891] relief on 31 December 2007. On the same date in 2008 the number was 147,900. These figures were not collected for 2006-07 and no Barbara Follett: The small business multiplier is 48.1p estimate has been made for 2009-10. for 2009-10 and the provisional small business multiplier for 2010-11 is 40.7p. The percentage change between Justine Greening: To ask the Secretary of State for the two figures is -15.4 per cent. Communities and Local Government what the An estimate of the small business multiplier based on monetary value of empty property relief was in (a) zero inflation (i.e. considering only the effect of revaluation) 2006-07, (b) 2007-08 and (c) 2008-09; what estimate was published in the ‘The transitional arrangements for he has made of the equivalent figure in 2009-10; and the non-domestic rating revaluation 2010 in England’ what the actual figure is in 2009-10 to date. [304884] consultation document. A copy of the consultation document is available at the following link: Barbara Follett: The amounts of empty property http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/ relief granted in 2006-07, 2007-08 and 2008-09 and the localgovemment/nndrrevaluation2010 amount forecast to be granted in 2009-10 are as follows: 401W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 402W

Empty property relief However, we have listened to owners. In 2009-10 all £ million empty properties with rateable values up to £15,000 are eligible for full relief from business rates—70 per cent. 2006-07 1,362 of all properties are under this threshold and, if empty, 2007-08 1,294 are not liable for rates in 2009-10. 2008-09 487 2009-10 570 This temporary measure is providing real help to owners to manage short-term pressures in a difficult In 2008-09, the rules governing empty and partly property market. occupied property relief were reformed by the Rating No data on the monetary value of the full relief from (Empty Properties) Act 2007 and further reforms were business rates in 2009-10 given to empty properties with introduced for 2009-10. a rateable value below £15,000 are collected centrally. Data are as reported to Communities and Local An impact assessment of the proposals to increase Government by all billing authorities in England on the the exemption threshold for empty property relief from annual National Non-Domestic Rates (NNDR) returns. £2,200 to £15,000 was published in February 2009. This The figures given are the net empty property relief forecast is based on a number of assumptions, which granted in that year irrespective of the year to which the are detailed in the impact assessment available at: empty property relief related. It can also include the http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2009/em/uksiem_20090353_en.pdf repayment of non-domestic rates where empty property The impact assessment forecast that the reform would relief should have been granted in previous years but increase the amount of empty property relief provided was not. by £205 million. The forecast excludes the relief granted to hereditaments with a rateable value of less than Justine Greening: To ask the Secretary of State for £2,200, of which no estimate has been made. Communities and Local Government what estimate has been made of the proportion of the 70 per cent. of Justine Greening: To ask the Secretary of State for properties with a rateable value below £15,000 that will Communities and Local Government what the average claim full relief from business rates in 2009-10 as a period of time was for which empty property relief was result of being empty. [304885] claimed on a hereditament in (a) 2006-07, (b) 2007-08 and (c) 2008-09; what estimate he has made of the Barbara Follett: Our reforms to empty property relief equivalent figure for 2009-10; and what the actual are principled and right for the long-term, providing figure is for 2009-10 to date. [304887] strong incentives for owners to re-let and re-use empty property. £1.3 billion subsidy to owners of empty Barbara Follett: This information is not collected commercial property was no longer justified. centrally. However, we have listened to owners. In 2009-10 all Non-Domestic Rates: Valuation empty properties with rateable values up to £15,000 are eligible for full relief from business rates—70 per cent. of all properties are under this threshold and, if empty, Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for are not liable for rates in 2009-10. Communities and Local Government if he will make it his policy to undertake an assessment of the benefits of This temporary measure is providing real help to following the Northern Ireland example of postponing owners to manage short-term pressures in a difficult the 2010 business rates revaluation. [305938] property market. No estimate has been made of the proportion of Barbara Follett: The postponement of revaluation in hereditaments, which have a rateable value below £15,000, Northern Ireland is a devolved decision made by the that are claiming full relief from business rates as a Northern Ireland Assembly and based on local result of being empty. circumstances. The ‘National Non-domestic rates collected by local The five-yearly business rates revaluations make sure authorities in England 2009-10 (Forecast)’ Statistical each business pays its fair contribution and no more by Release that was published on 28 May 2009 estimated ensuring the share of the national rates bill paid by any that, in total, 148,000 hereditaments were empty in one business reflects changes over time in the value of England as at 31 December 2008. This release can be their property relative to others. The 2010 revaluation found on the CLG website at: will not raise a single extra penny for Government. http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/corporate/ Over a million properties will see their business rate statistics/nondomesticrates200910f liabilities come down as a result of revaluation. The Government intend to put in place a £2 billion relief Justine Greening: To ask the Secretary of State for scheme to limit the impact on the minority with bill Communities and Local Government what estimate he increases. This is on top of the wider support available has made of the total monetary value of the full relief to help ease business pressures including discounted from business rates in 2009-10 for empty properties rate bills for small businesses and deferring tax payments. with a rateable value below £15,000. [304886] Property Development: Floods Barbara Follett: Our reforms to empty property relief are principled and right for the long-term, providing Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for strong incentives for owners to re-let and re-use empty Communities and Local Government how many homes property. £1.3 billion subsidy to owners of empty have been (a) built, (b) built on flood plains, (c) built commercial property was no longer justified. in areas of significant flood risk and (d) built against 403W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 404W the advice of the Environment Agency on the flood risk Regeneration: Bexley in each region in the last 10 years. [303296] Mr. Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what funding his Department has provided for (a) regeneration and (b) Mr. Ian Austin: The number of homes built in each housing projects in the London borough of Bexley in region, and approximate estimates of those built in each of the last five years; and how much such funding areas of high flood risk in each region, for the past 10 his Department plans to provide in 2010-11. [304997] years is given in the following table. Data are not available on the number of homes built against the Barbara Follett: The information requested is as follows: advice of the Environment Agency. (a) The following table illustrates the funding the Total dwelling completions and estimated dwellings built on Flood Risk Areas, Department provided to the London borough of Bexley 1999 to 2008 for regeneration. Total completions Built on flood risk areas Thames Gateway Programme North East 67,760 1,200 £ North West 179,450 8,000 2005-06 7,528,735 Yorkshire and the 141,300 18,200 Humber 2006-07 17,911,209 East Midlands 153,710 16,700 2007-08 543,226 West Midlands 141,820 6,000 2008-09 2,580,050 2009-10 2,844,450 East of England 189,510 13,600 2010-111 4,533,905 London 183,010 40,000 1 Grant funding committed South East 251,530 18,200 South West 170,260 13,100 (b) The following tables illustrate the funding the England 1,478,350 135,000 Department provided to the London borough of Bexley for housing projects.

£ Supporting Supporting National people people Planning affordable administration programme delivery LA decent housing Overcrowding grant grant grant homes programme grant1 Homelessness grant

2005-06 145,194 2,776,759 788,578 1,323,000 13,485,720 — 58,000 2006-07 145,194 2,776,454 493,062 0 15,221,744 — 88,000 2007-08 145,194 2,984,688 400,589 0 17,639,023 — 140,000

Housing Supporting Supporting and National people people planning affordable administration programme delivery LA decent housing Overcrowding grant grant grant homes programme grant1 Homelessness grant

2008/09 137,934 3,193,616 93,4692 0 13,852,479 110,000 100,000 2009/10 127,045 3,417,169 83,1252 NA HP spend NAHP spend 80,000 101,500 data for data for 2009-10 will not 2009-10 will not be available be available until 2010-11. until 2010-11. No funding was No funding was provided for provided for Private Sector Private Sector Renewal and Renewal and Regeneration Regeneration 2010-11 108,895 3,656,371 No data is — — Decisions about Decisions about funding for available funding for 2010-11 have not made for 2010-11 2010-11 have not at present been made 1 The London borough of Bexley did not receive Overcrowding Grant prior to 2008 2 This amount is made up entirely from the planning element of the grant—the London borough of Bexley did not receive any funding for housing from this grant.

Rented Housing York. This included proposals for a national register of private landlords. We have been considering the consultation responses received and plan to publish the results shortly. Jim Cousins: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government whether he plans to introduce a general registration scheme for rented TREASURY housing. [305569] Bookmakers: Betting Shops Mr. Ian Austin: We consulted over the summer on our Mr. Caborn: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer response to the independent review of the private rented whether he has made an estimate of the effect on sector carried out by Julie Rugg and David Rhodes of Exchequer revenues of business transferring from the Centre for Housing Policy at the University of licensed bookmakers to betting exchanges. [305286] 405W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 406W

Sarah McCarthy-Fry: No assessment has been made. As at 1 April 2007 = £47,110 million Licensed bookmakers based in the UK pay 15 per cent. As at 1 April 2008 = £46,771 million general betting duty on their profits. Betting exchanges As at 29 May 2009 = £46,808 million based in the UK also pay 15 per cent. general betting The total rateable value included in the draft 2010 duty on the commission they charge. Local Rating Lists England as at the 29 May 2009 was Departmental Written Questions £55,871 million.

John Mason: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Taxation: Business how many questions tabled for answer on a named day his Department received in each of the last 12 months; Mr. Prisk: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer and to how many such questions his Department how many (a) small and medium-sized enterprises and provided a substantive answer on the day named. (b) other enterprises which have made Time to Pay [305371] arrangements with HM Revenue and Customs to defer tax through the Business Payment Support Service HM Sarah McCarthy-Fry: Treasury Ministers endeavour Revenue and Customs forecasts will be unable to meet to answer written parliamentary questions promptly their tax liabilities in (i) January 2010, (ii) February wherever possible. Of the 876 named day questions 2010, (iii) March 2010, (iv) April 2010, (v) May 2010, tabled to the Treasury in the 2008-09 parliamentary (vi) June 2010, (vii) July 2010, (viii) August 2010 and session, 672 (77 per cent.) were answered on the day (ix) September 2010; and if he will make a statement. nominated by questioners. [304409] Excise Duties: Oil Mr. Timms: HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) measures the Business Payment Support Service through Mark Williams: To ask the Chancellor of the the number and value of agreements reached, and not Exchequer whether he has made an assessment of the by the size of business. merits of amending the Hydrocarbon Oil (Registered Dealers in Controlled Oil) Regulations 2002 to exempt No such forecasts have been made. retailers who provide small amounts of loose However, since the service was introduced on 24 controlled oil in customer-owned containers from the November 2008, over 90 per cent. of the value of provisions of sections 23A(1) and (4) of the payments due have been paid. Where taxpayers do not Hydrocarbon Oil Duties Act 1979. [304823] meet the obligations of the Time To Pay agreement, HMRC takes appropriate recovery action to secure the Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The Registered Dealers in tax due. Controlled Oil (RDCO) scheme was introduced in 2002, with an exemption for businesses supplying and receiving Welfare Tax Credits oil in pre-packaged containers not exceeding 20 litres. All other supplies of controlled oils were included in the RDCO scheme. The scope of this exemption was reviewed Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Chancellor of the in a post implementation review of the scheme in 2005, Exchequer what estimate he has made of the annual and the decision was taken not to extend it. We continue additional revenue to the Exchequer that would arise to review the scheme in order to minimise the administrative from the removal of the payment of tax credits to burdens on businesses. households with incomes above £50,000. [303864] Financial Services: Advisory Services Mr. Timms: The total annual tax credit entitlement for families earning more than £50,000 is estimated to Philip Davies: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer be approximately £45 million. what legal advice the Financial Services Authority (a) This estimate is based on finalised incomes and sought and (b) received on its proposals to require circumstances of families benefiting from tax credits in requalification by independent financial advisers; and if 2007-08 which is the most recent year available. These he will make a statement. [305117] statistics are available at: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/personal-tax-credits/ctcw-tax- Sarah McCarthy-Fry: As the Financial Services Authority credit-final-may09.pdf is independent of central Government, I have asked it Household income has been calculated based on income to respond to the hon. Member directly. I also refer the used to calculate tax credit entitlement and will therefore hon. Member to the answer I gave on 5 November 2009, disregard in-year income rises of less than £25,000. Official Report, column 1096W. The total annual tax credits entitlement of these Property: Valuation families will differ slightly from the additional revenue to the Exchequer of excluding them from tax credits, Justine Greening: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer because of effects on over- and under-payments. Analysis what the total rateable value of properties on the 2005 of these effects is available only at disproportionate Rating List was in (a) 2007-08, (b) 2008-09 and (c) cost. 2009-10; and what the total rateable value of properties is on the draft 2010 rating list. [304888] Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will estimate the level of second income threshold Ian Pearson: The total rateable values included in the for tax withdrawal required to reduce annual expenditure 2005 Local Rating Lists England are as follows: on tax credits by £400 million. [303878] 407W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 408W

Mr. Timms: To reduce total annual tax credit expenditure Jonathan Shaw: Income support is available, subject by £400 million, it is estimated that the second income to normal means-testing rules, to people who regularly threshold would need to be reduced to around £31,000. and substantially care for a family member or any other person. In order to be eligible for income support, the carer must either be receiving carer’s allowance or be providing WORK AND PENSIONS regular and substantial care to a person who receives, or is awaiting a decision on a claim for, attendance allowance Attendance Allowance or one of the two higher care components of disability living allowance. Danny Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State for In addition, income support is available to people Work and Pensions how many people resident in who are looking after a member of the family who is (a) Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey temporarily ill and to people who are temporarily looking constituency, (b) the Highlands, (c) Scotland and (d) after a child out of necessity because that child’s parent England and Wales have received attendance allowance or guardian is either ill or absent from home. in each of the last five years. [304689] Council Tax Benefits

Jonathan Shaw: The available information is in the Steve Webb: To ask the Secretary of State for Work tables. and Pensions with reference to the answer of 31 March Attendance allowance cases in payment: Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch 2009, Official Report, column 1160W, on social security and Strathspey constituency benefits, when she expects to have the relevant May each year Total information for (a) each quarter in 2008-09 and (b) [302357] 2005 1,940 2009-10 to date. 2006 2,100 Jim Knight: We do not intend to publish claims 2007 2,070 processing and outstanding claims data for 2008-09. We 2008 2,080 are still working to quality assure claims processing 2009 2,190 data from 2009-10 onwards. We are currently unable to Attendance allowance cases in payment: Highlands say when this will be complete. May each year Total Information on the number of outstanding claims is still to be looked at as part of the programme of data 2005 5,080 quality assurance, and at this stage there is no timetable 2006 5,350 for publishing that information. 2007 5,310 2008 5,400 Crisis Loans 2009 5,650

Attendance allowance cases in payment: by Government Office Region Steve Webb: To ask the Secretary of State for Work May and Pensions how many and what proportion of social each Unknown/ fund crisis loans were alignment payments in each year England Wales Scotland Other quarter since 2007. [302241]

2005 1,177,960 105,490 135,490 480 Helen Goodman: The available information is given in 2006 1,217,760 108,630 138,790 420 the table. 2007 1,255,640 110,940 140,460 470 2008 1,290,470 113,130 142,630 450 Alignment payment initial awards in Great Britain by quarter 2009 1,324,540 114,890 145,610 750 Proportion of total crisis loan initial Notes: Quarter Number awards (percentage) 1. Caseload totals show the number of people in receipt of an allowance and exclude people with entitlement where the payment 2007 has been suspended, for example, if they are in hospital. 2. Caseload figures are rounded to the nearest ten. January to March 138,000 46.2 3. The Highlands region is defined as the local authority of the April to June 146,000 48.2 claimant. The postcode of a claimant is used to assign the parliamentary July to September 180,000 50.4 constituency, local authority and government office region. Local October to December 176,000 49.1 authorities are assigned by matching postcodes against the relevant postcode directory. “Unknown/Other” includes individuals whose postcode cannot be matched to a government office region and those 2008 temporarily living abroad. Source: January to March 188,000 45.5 Department for Work and Pensions Information Directorate: April to June 194,000 46.0 Work and Pensions Longitudinal Study July to September 212,000 46.3 October to December 220,000 45.3 Carers’ Benefits 2009 Danny Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State for January to March 240,000 40.1 Work and Pensions whether people who provide Source: full-time care for a member of their family are eligible DWP Social Fund Policy, Budget and Management Information for income support. [304688] System 409W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 410W

Departmental Contracts Departmental Public Expenditure

Mr. Touhig: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Mr. Heald: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what criteria her Department uses in and Pensions what the cost to her Department was of determining the award of contracts; and how much her provision of that office facilities to (a) special advisers Department and its predecessors spent on the and (b) press officers in the 2008-09 financial year. advertisement of tenders for Government contracts [302961] since 1997. [303096] Jim Knight: DWP special advisers are based in London and the annual cost of providing serviced office Jim Knight: The criteria the Department uses in accommodation was £38,220 in 2008-09. determining the award of contracts is tailored specifically to individual contracts. Contracts are let though a fair The cost of providing serviced accommodation for and open competitive tendering process underpinned DWP press office and support staff in London, the by EU principles of transparency, equal treatment, regions, Scotland and Wales, was £233,914 in 2008-09. non-discrimination and proportionality. Contracts should DWP Press Office carried out work on behalf of the deliver sustainable best practice commercial services Department, Jobcentre Plus, the Pensions, Disability and solutions that support the required departmental and Carers Service and Child Support Agency (now business outcomes, take account of current policies and Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission). provide best value for money. Disabled People: Social Security Benefits Departmental spend on advertising contracts since 1997 is not collated centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Where appropriate, current Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for Work contracts are advertised through the Official Journal of and Pensions with reference to the answer to Lord the European Union (OJEU) which is free of charge. Ashby of Stoke on 13 October 2009, Official Report, Procurement teams will also consider advertising in House of Lords, columns 112-13, on, disabled people: external trade journals and other relevant publications benefits, which benefits are included in the if appropriate to individual contracts. Government’s definition of disability benefits. [300399]

Jonathan Shaw [holding answer on 23 November 2009]: Departmental Internet Attendance allowance and disability living allowance for those aged 65 and over. Mr. Heald: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what the cost was of maintaining her Flexible Working: Wales Department’s website in the 2008-09 financial year; and what the forecast cost is of maintaining websites Jessica Morden: To ask the Secretary of State for within her responsibility in the 2009-10 financial year. Work and Pensions how many parents of young children [302426] have exercised their right to request flexible working in (a) Newport East constituency and (b) Wales since the introduction of that right. [303499] Jim Knight: Ongoing delivery and maintenance of the Department’s website is carried out by the Department’s own in-house Digital Media team. It is not possible for Mr. McFadden: I have been asked to reply. us to extract and quantify internal staff costs, because The new employment rights introduced on April in most cases, staff are engaged in more than one role. 2003 gave parents of children under six and disabled In addition, we are unable to establish accurately our children under 18 the right to request flexible working, and annual running costs because they form part of a this was extended to carers in April 2007 and parents of wider departmental IT contract. children aged 16 and under in April 2009. The proportion of employees with children (under 16 years old) who We can provide a figure for 2008-09 development have requested to work flexibly by region and nation in work, as we redeveloped the Department’s website in Great Britain are provided in the following table. These that year. This is a one off cost relating to that development figures are from the Flexible Working Survey (2005) only and is not an annual cost. This is £215,666.00. however information is not available for Newport East The total forecast expenditure for Directgov in the and due to a small sample size of respondents in Wales 2009-10 financial year is £30,500,000. This is consistent reliable information is only available for all employees’ with previously agreed financial figures and covers all requests for flexible working, not those employees with aspects of Directgov business of which an aspect is children. website maintenance. Later information comes from the Work Life Balance It is not possible to provide 2009-10 forecast costs for Survey (2006), which asked 2,081 employees in Great the remaining websites within the responsibility of the Britain whether they made a request in the last two Department. We are working with Cabinet Office to years to change their working arrangements. Again, the implement a standardised method for quantifying website relative small sample size representing Wales mean reliable costs across Government in line with Central Office of statistics are not available for parents of young children; Information guidelines. This is in response to a Public however the survey found that 18 per cent. of all respondents Accounts Committee recommendation. These costs will in Wales requested flexible working, 17 per cent. for all be available from April 2010 onwards as per the timetable. of Great Britain. 411W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 412W

Table 1: Requests to work flexibly over last two years, employees with expenditure on the disability benefits specifically children targeted at older people; and what estimate was made Percentage of the amount spent on each benefit. [300517] Employees with children (under 16) requests for flexible Jonathan Shaw [holding answer 23 November 2009]: working All employees The £6.1 billion quoted on page 101 of “Shaping the Future of Care Together”, refers to the amount of Great Britain 19 14 attendance allowance and disability living allowance England 19 14 paid in 2007-08 to those aged 65 and over in England. The expenditure was estimated at £3.5 and £2.6 billion North East 20 13 respectively. North West 1—13 Yorkshire and the 19 12 Social Security Benefits: Greater Manchester Humber East Midlands * 16 West Midlands 13 10 John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for East of England 1— 1— Work and Pensions (1) what the budget is for the Work London 25 15 of Your Benefits pilots in (a) Manchester and (b) South East 18 14 Norfolk; [302401] South West 27 17 (2) what the timetable is for the Work for Your Benefits pilots in (a) Manchester and (b) Norfolk; Wales 1—14and what evaluation process will take place during and Scotland 19 13 after the pilots. [302402] 1 Reliable figures are not available due to small sample sizes. Source: Jim Knight: There are two pilot areas, both of which Flexible Working Employee Survey 2005 cover multiple Jobcentre Plus Districts. The overall budget for the Work for Your Benefit programme is as Members: Correspondence follows: (a) Greater Manchester Central and Greater Manchester East Mr. Baron: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and West: £9.34 million and Pensions when she plans to respond to the hon. (b) Cambridgeshire and Suffolk; and Norfolk: £5.66 million Member of Billiericay’s letter of 2 November 2009 on Mr. D. Prance. [304708] Both Work for Your Benefit pilots will start delivery in November 2010 and will run for two years. There will Angela Eagle: A reply was sent to the hon. Member be a full and independent evaluation of the pilots which on 7 December. will begin in 2010. Findings will be available throughout the lifetime of the pilots with early results available Retirement from autumn 2011. A final report will be published in 2013-14. John Hemming: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions if she will make it her policy to Social Security Benefits: Pilot Schemes ensure that employers are required to give reasons for requiring a person to retire. [302463] John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. McFadden: I have been asked to reply. Work and Pensions when she expects the Work for Your Benefits scheme to be rolled out nationally; and if The Employment Equality (Age) Regulations 2006 she will make a statement. [302403] provide for a statutory retirement procedure which includes an employee’s right to request to stay in employment beyond retirement age and a default retirement age of Jim Knight: The Work for Your Benefit pilots are not 65 that employers can use if they wish. The Government yet operational and it would be premature to pre-judge fixed the default retirement age at 65 for sound policy the results of the evaluation. As such there are no reasons and the High Court has confirmed that it is current plans to roll the programme out nationally. objectively justified. There is therefore no requirement for employers to give a reason why they are retiring John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for someone if using the default retirement age. Work and Pensions which employers have agreed to We have brought forward the planned review of the participate in Work for Your Benefits pilots to date. default retirement age from 2011 to 2010. The review [302430] will consider whether the default retirement age remains appropriate and necessary. Jim Knight: The Work for Your Benefit programme will be delivered through private, voluntary or public Social Security Benefits: Elderly sector contractors. It will be for individual providers to source work experience placements with a variety of Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for Work host organisations once contracts have been awarded. and Pensions which disability benefits are included in Procurement for these contracts is under way with the figure of £6.1 billion quoted on page 101 of the contract award expected in the summer of 2010 with the Green Paper on Shaping the future of care together, for pilots due to be launched in November 2010. 413W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 414W

HOME DEPARTMENT Alan Johnson: The following table shows the number of removals and voluntary departures by destination Animal Welfare for nationals of the Occupied Palestinian Territories between 2004 and 2008. Destination data prior to 2004 are not available. Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for the Published statistics on immigration and asylum are Home Department with reference to the answer of available from the Library of the House and from the 11 November 2009, Official Report, column 416W, on Home Office Research, Development and Statistics animal welfare, whether the guidance relating to named Directorate web site at: veterinary surgeons takes account of circumstances in which such a veterinary surgeon is a shareholder in a http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/immigration-asylum- stats.html company owning a scientific procedures establishment. 1,2,3 [304697] Removals and voluntary departures for nationals of the Occupied Palestinian Territories by country of destination, 2004 to 2008 Number of departures4 Meg Hillier: Paragraphs 3.17 to 3.19 of the Guidance 2004 2005 2006 2007 20085 2004-085 on the Operation of the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 (HC321) dealing with conflicts of interest do Total removals 170 140 175 355 320 1,155 not make specific reference to circumstances in which and voluntary an individual is a shareholder in a company owning a departures scientific procedures establishment in which they are of which: Country of the named veterinary surgeon. However, all relevant destination6 circumstances will be taken into account when considering France 120 65 95 220 215 710 any suggestion that a potential conflict of interest exists. Lebanon 5 15 15 25 15 75 Italy 5 10 * 20 15 55 Asylum Occupied * 10 5 30 10 50 Palestinian Territories Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for the Jordan 10 5 15 15 10 50 Home Department how many asylum seekers who Belgium — 5 5 15 15 40 declared their age to be (a) 17, (b) 12 to 16, (c) five to 11 and (d) under five years old have been the subject of Ireland * — 15 5 5 30 Egypt * * 5 5 15 25 age disputes in each of the last 12 years. [302882] Germany 5 5 5 * * 20 Greece 5 * 5 5 5 20 Alan Johnson: The requested information is not collated Netherlands * 5 — * — 10 and could be obtained only at disproportionate cost Sweden * 5 * * * 10 through the examination of individual case records. Spain 5 * — * * 5 Syria * * * * — 5 Criminal Records Bureau: Finance Austria * 5 — — * 5 United States 5——— — 5 Mrs. Maria Miller: To ask the Secretary of State for of America the Home Department how much funding his Department Saudi Arabia — — — * * 5 has allocated for (a) the Criminal Records Bureau and United Arab *— *— * 5 (b) the Independent Safeguarding Authority for (i) Emirates Other and not 5105 5 1030 [305364] 2009-10 and (ii) 2010-11. known 1 Figures are rounded to the nearest 5 (— = 0, * = 1 or 2) and may Meg Hillier: The Criminal Records Bureau (CRB) is not sum to the totals shown because of independent rounding. a self-funding agency. 2 Includes enforced removals, persons departing voluntarily after notifying the UK Border Agency of their intention to leave prior to However, for the implementation of the Vetting and their departure, persons leaving under Assisted Voluntary Return Barring scheme the budget allocation to the CRB is (i) Programmes run by the International Organisation for Migration 7.33 million for 2009-10 and (ii) 4.3 million for 2010-11. and since January 2005 persons who it has been established left the UK without informing the immigration authorities. The funding for set up of the Vetting and Barring 3 Figures include dependants. Scheme, including the costs associated with the Independent 4 Removals and voluntary departures recorded on the system as at Safeguarding Authority (ISA), are provided by the the dates on which the data extracts were taken. 5 Department of Children Schools and Families (DCSF) Provisional figures. Figures will under record due to data cleansing and data matching exercises that take place after the extracts are and the Department of Health (DH). taken. The funding allocated to the ISA is (i) £15.5 million 6 Destination as recorded on source database. for 2009-10 and (ii) £13.1 million currently for 2010-11. Entry Clearances Deportation: Palestinians Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what information his Department Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for the holds on the reasons given by overseas embassies in the Home Department how many people who have given UK for refusing to provide passports to their nationals their nationality as Palestinian have been deported to who are legitimately in the UK; and if he will make a each country in each year since 1997. [303938] statement. [305193] 415W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 416W

Meg Hillier: The Home Office holds no information Members: Correspondence on the reasons given by overseas embassies in the UK for refusing to provide passports to their nationals who Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for are legitimately in the UK. The decision of whether or the Home Department when he intends to reply to the not to issue an identity document is a matter for the letter of 5 October 2009 from the right hon. Member sovereign government in question. for Manchester, Gorton with regard to Mrs. Bashir The Foreign and Commonwealth Office are responsible Begum. [303413] for certain administrative aspects of our relationship with foreign missions in the UK. Alan Johnson: I wrote to my right hon. Friend on 2 December 2009. Extradition Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Dismore: To ask the Secretary of State for the the Home Department when he intends to reply to the Home Department how many people have been (a) letter of 29 September 2009 from the right hon. sent (i) from the UK to another EU member state and Member for Manchester, Gorton with regard to Kashif (ii) to the UK from another EU member state under Masood. [303414] the European arrest warrant, (b) extradited to the US under the UK/US extradition treaty and (c) extradited Alan Johnson: I wrote to my right hon. Friend on to the UK under the UK/US extradition treaty; and if 30 November 2009. he will make a statement. [304114] Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for Meg Hillier: (a) (i) The Serious Organised Crime the Home Department when he plans to reply to the Agency and the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal letter of 5 October 2009 from the right hon. Member Service are the designated authorities for the receipt for Manchester Gorton on Mrs Bashir Begum. [305116] and transmission of European arrest warrants (EAWs) in the UK. The number of EAW surrenders from the Alan Johnson: I wrote to my right hon. Friend on UK (excluding Scotland) to other EU member states 2 December 2009. from 1 January 2004-31 December 2008 is as follows: Passports: Fees and Charges Number Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the 2004 24 Home Department with reference to the answer of 2005 77 12 November 2009, Official Report, column 957W, on 2006 151 passports, what fee will be charged for an application 2007 332 for a fingerprint biometric passport; and whether 2008 515 holders of existing passports will be required to obtain a fingerprint biometric passport. [303840] (ii) The number of surrenders to the UK from other member states under the EAW procedure between 1 Alan Johnson: The level of fees that will apply in the January 2004 and 31 December 2008 is as follows: future when fingerprint biometric passports are introduced has not been set and will depend on the future fee Number strategy for passports and identity cards. However, the 2004 19 current standard fee for an adult passport is £77.50 and 2005 63 £30.00 for an identity card. Once fingerprint biometric 2006 76 passports are introduced, anyone applying for a passport, 2007 99 whether as a first time applicant or as an existing passport holder, would have the choice of being issued 2008 96 with a fingerprint biometric passport or a fingerprint (b) In the same period, 68 people have been extradited biometric identity card or both documents. to the US from the UK (excluding Scotland); and 34 people have been extradited in the other direction. Police: Hunting The new UK-US extradition treaty came into force on 26 April 2007. The figures given in this reply cover Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for the extraditions made under the new and old bilateral Home Department what estimate he has made of the arrangements. amount of police time spent on the policing of hunting and related activities in each year since 2000. [301639] Government Communications Mr. Hanson: The deployment of resources to investigate Mr. Hurd: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home alleged offences committed under the Hunting Act 2004 Department whether his Department’s Research, is a matter for individual chief officers. Information and Communications Unit is affiliated to the Government Communication Network. [305153] Police: Public Appointments

Mr. Hanson: The Research, Information and Mr. Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for the Communications Unit (RICU) is not affiliated to the Home Department when the Chief Executive of the Government Communications Network (GCN), but a National Policing Improvement Agency was appointed; number of staff working within RICU have been recruited by whom he was appointed; whether he is eligible to through and are members of the GCN. receive a bonus; and if he will make a statement. [304012] 417W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 418W

Mr. Hanson: Chief constable Peter Neyroud was excluding EU Emissions Trading System = 542.6 MtCO2e appointed as chief executive officer (CEO) Designate of including EU Emissions Trading System = 516.9 MtCO2e the National Policing Improvement Agency (NPIA) by It may be helpful to know emissions of all greenhouse the Minister of State for Policing in January 2006. He gases. Again these are final 2007 figures: was appointed CEO upon the creation of the NPIA on excluding EU Emissions Trading System = 636.6 MtCO e 1 April 2007 by the Minister of State for Policing in 2 including EU Emissions Trading System = 611.0 MtCO e consultation with the Association of Chief Police Officers 2 and the Association of Police Authorities, as required Departmental Information Officers by the Police and Justice Act 2006. The CEO is eligible to receive a performance-related Mr. Heald: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy bonus at the discretion of the NPIA Board. The board and Climate Change how many full-time equivalent recommended that the CEO be awarded a bonus for the press officers (a) are employed by and (b) work for his year 2008-09, but this was declined by the CEO. Department. [303597] Radicalism: Civil Servants Joan Ruddock: There are nine full-time equivalent press officers who are employed and work for DECC. Mr. Holloway: To ask the Secretary of State for the These include: Home Department how many civil servants have been investigated for possible links to violent extremism in One Head of News (SCS) each year since 2001. [305347] Two Chief Press Officers (G7) Three Senior Press Officers (SIO) Mr. Hanson [holding answer 8 December 2009]: This Three Press Officers (IO) information is not held centrally and could only be obtained at disproportionate cost. Departmental Internet Wickham Research Laboratories Mr. Heald: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what the cost was of maintaining Mr. Oaten: To ask the Secretary of State for the his Department’s website in the 2008-09 financial year; Home Department when he plans to announce who and what the forecast cost is of maintaining websites has been chosen to conduct the special investigation of within his responsibility in the 2009-10 financial year. animal testing at Wickham Laboratories; and when he [302415] expects this investigation to be completed. [305090] Joan Ruddock: The Department of Energy and Climate Meg Hillier [holding answer 8 December 2009]: The Change was created on 3 October 2008, and its official review will be led by a superintending inspector from corporate website was launched on 23 February 2009: the Home Office Animals (Scientific Procedures) http://www.decc.gov.uk/ Inspectorate who will be assisted by two independent experts. I anticipate that the review will be completed The cost of developing and maintaining the Department early in 2010. of Energy and Climate Change’s website in the 2008-09 financial year was: £58,874.00 The forecast costs of maintaining websites within the Secretary of State’s responsibility in the 2009-10 financial ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE year are: £883,726. Carbon Emissions This includes the forecast costs for the Department’s corporate site: Charles Hendry: To ask the Secretary of State for www.decc.gov.uk Energy and Climate Change what the latest estimate is Act on CO2 of UK net carbon dioxide emissions in 2008 (a) with http://actonco2.direct.gov.uk/actonco2/liome.html and (b) without the inclusion of carbon trading. the Government’s energy and climate change advice [303526] website to help people reduce their carbon footprint, ActOnCopenhagen Joan Ruddock: Provisional estimates of 2008 emissions http://www.actoncopenhagen.decc.gov.uk/en/ were published on 26 March 2009. These figures estimate that: HMG’s official website for activities in the lead up to and during global climate change negotiations in UK emissions for carbon dioxide were 531.8 million tonnes carbon dioxide equivalent (MtCO e) Copenhagen, December 2009, as well as the websites 2 listed as follows: including for the effect of the EU Emissions Trading System, UK carbon dioxide emissions in 2008 were estimated to be https://www.energynpsconsultation.decc.gov.uk/ 511.4 MtCO2e (National Policy Statements consultation site) The equivalent figures for all greenhouse gases are as www.sedbuk.com follows: (Boiler efficiency database)

excluding the EU Emissions Trading System = 623.8 MtCO2e www.Hfccat-demo.org

including the EU Emissions Trading System = 603.4 MtCO2e (Hydrogen, Fuel Cells and Carbon Abatement Technologies The most recent final figures are for estimates of 2007 Demonstration Programme) emissions. These were published on 3 February 2009. www.bioenergycapitalgrants.org.uk Estimates for only carbon dioxide emissions are: (The Bio-energy Capital Grants Scheme) 419W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 420W

http://chp.decc.gov.uk/cms/ In May 2002 the Environment Agency produced its (CHP Focus—Combined Heat and Power) own report on solid residues from municipal incineration. http://www.chpqa.com/ It has not commissioned outside bodies to carry out (Quality assurance for Combined Heat and Power) research in this area. It evaluates reports that come to light in order to keep abreast of developments but does www.corwm.org.uk not maintain a list of these. (Committee on Radioactive Waste Management) The Health Protection Agency (HPA) has commissioned www.rimnet.gov.uk no research in this area in the last ten years but recently www.ensg.gov.uk reviewed the latest research on the health effects of (Electricity Networks Strategy Group) modern municipal waste incinerators. It concludes that www.og.decc.gov.uk while it is not possible to rule out adverse health effects (Oil and Gas Portal) completely, any potential damage from modern, well-run https://www.og.decc.gov.uk/EIP/pages/help.htm and regulated incinerators is likely to be so small that it (DECC Energy Infrastructure Portal) would be undetectable. Moreover, it recommends that since any possible health effects of emissions are likely www.planningrenewables.org.uk to be very small, studies of public health around modern, Planning Renewables website well managed municipal waste incinerators are not www.renewables-advisory-board.org.uk recommended. A statement can be found on the HPA’s (The Renewables Advisory Board (RAB)) website. www.ukrenewables.com (DECC’s UK Renewables Service) Electricity: Pensions www.avoid.uk.net (website providing key advice to the UK Government on avoiding Mr. Russell Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for dangerous climate change) Energy and Climate Change what assessment he has www.lowcarbonbuildings.org.uk/home made of the Government Actuary’s Department’s www.bigenergyshift.org.uk recent report on the stewardship of electricity sector www.decc.gov.uk/offsetting pension schemes; and what consideration he has given to bringing forward measures to enable Ofgem to Departmental Recruitment regulate in this area. [302557] Mr. Kidney: The Government Actuary Department’s Mr. Jenkin: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy report was commissioned by Ofgem as part of its review and Climate Change what proportion of jobs of compliance with its price control pension principles. advertised by his Department in the last 12 months The report fed in to Ofgem’s fifth distribution price were online only applications; and what provision his control review, the final decision on which was published Department makes for those wishing to apply for jobs on 7 December 2009: in his Department who do not have access to the http://www.ofgem.gov.uk/Pages/ internet. [301549] MoreInformation.aspx?docid=346&refer=rNetworks/ ElecDist/PriceCntrls/DPCR5 Joan Ruddock: In the past 12 months, the Department We have no plans to bring forward measures to did not externally advertise any roles on an online only change Ofgem’s role regarding pensions. basis. Applicants without access to the internet can telephone to request a hard copy of an application pack. Energy: Housing

Departmental Research Charles Hendry: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what expenditure his Department expects to incur on the Pay as You Save Mr. Streeter: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy pilots in (a) 2009-10, (b) 2010-11 and (c) subsequent and Climate Change what research his Department has years. [303512] (a) commissioned and (b) evaluated on the safety of (i) emissions from and (ii) ash by-products of energy Joan Ruddock: The Home Energy PAYS pilots have a from waste incinerators in the last 10 years. [303976] budget of £4 million in total. £2 million in 2009-10 and £2 million in 2010-11. The pilots end in April 2011 and Dan Norris: I have been asked to reply. therefore there is no budget in subsequent years. The DEFRA is continually evaluating research relevant administration costs of the pilot are being covered by to energy from waste as our departmental priority is to our delivery partners, and they will cover these costs for secure a healthy environment in which we and future the duration of the PAYS arrangements. generations can prosper. In particular over the last ten years, we have commissioned and evaluated the following Energy: Prices research: Emissions (i) “Emissions from waste management: framework for assessment of data quality and research needs”; the project Mr. Russell Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for is still underway. Energy and Climate Change (1) what recent Emissions and ash by-products (i) and (ii) ’Review of representations he has made to Ofgem on the fifth Environmental and Health Effects of Waste Management: Distribution Price Control Review; and if he will make Municipal Solid Waste and Similar Wastes’; published in 2004. a statement; [302555] 421W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 422W

(2) with reference to the fifth Distribution Price Control and we would expect that these will vary depending on Review, what assessment he has made of the effect a the location. However, we would expect all these costs settlement below that requested by the distribution to be within civil service guidelines, with hotels costing network operators would have on the level of economic around £60 per person per night for example. growth; [302556] The primary target audience of the Nuclear NPS (3) with reference to the fifth Distribution Price Control events is the local community, therefore we would not Review, what assessment he has made of the effect a expect members of the public to incur accommodation settlement below that requested by the distribution costs and only limited travel costs to attend the events. network operators would have on the connection of Venues were chosen to be as close to the proposed new onshore renewables to the National Grid and the nuclear power station site. We took into account a achievement of climate change targets; [302558] number of principles which helped us in choosing the (4) with reference to the fifth Distribution Price Control exhibition location . These included: Review, what assessment he has made of the effect a Journey time to proposed site settlement below that requested by the distribution Historic evidence of attendance levels to similar consultations network operators would have on (a) maintaining secure Existence of multiple proposed sites in one area energy supplies and (b) the standard of customer service, A wide range of venues were considered for each particularly in rural areas; [302563] location. Suggested venues have been recommended by (5) with reference to the fifth Distribution Price Control local authorities and energy companies (who have Review, what estimate he has made of the effect a undertaken similar events in the past) and we have settlement below that requested by the distribution endeavoured to use as many of these recommendations network operators would have on the number of highly as possible. The priority was finding the largest possible skilled jobs. [302564] venues, nearest to the site. Mr. Kidney: Ministers and officials meet with Ofgem Renewable Energy: Fuel Oil representatives and DNO representatives regularly to discuss a wide range of issues, including the Fifth Mr. Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for Distribution Price Control Review (DPCR5). Energy and Climate Change what assessment he has As economic regulator of the electricity industry, it made of the extent to which greater use of recovered falls to Ofgem to administer the distribution price control fuel oil for incineration by industry could reduce the regime. Ofgem published its final decision on DPCR5 use of fossil fuels. [304301] on 7 December, after a period of consultation with network operators (DNOs) and other interested parties. Dan Norris: I have been asked to reply. The price control regime ensures DNOs can, through Waste Strategy 2007 recognises that recovered fuel oil efficient operation, earn a fair return after capital and (RFO), which is part-processed waste oil, may be used operating costs while limiting costs passed onto customers. as a fuel substitute, and the energy in the RFO recovered. DNOs can reject a price control, in which case it will be This can lead to a reduction in reliance on fossil fuels. considered by the Competition Commission. Under the revised Waste Framework Directive the recovery of energy from waste is placed fourth in the waste National Nuclear Policy Statement hierarchy, which shall apply as a priority order, and above waste disposal which includes incineration without Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy energy recovery. The regeneration of waste oil into base and Climate Change what the cost has been of each oil by re-refining is classed as recycling and is placed regional hearing organised by his Department since third in the waste hierarchy. publication of the National Nuclear Policy Statement on 9 November 2009 inviting residents to have their say on proposals to build a new nuclear power station in CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES their area; how many departmental officials attended each meeting; how many incurred overnight stays in Children: Day Care each case, and at what cost; and whether provision has been made to defray the costs of interested parties in Dr. Kumar: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, travelling to and staying overnight to enable attendance Schools and Families how many childcare places have at such meetings. [304415] been created in (a) England, (b) the North East and (c) Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland constituency Mr. Kidney: The Planning Act 2008 requires the in each year since 1997. [301932] Government to consult the public and stakeholders on the draft National Policy Statements (NPSs) before Dawn Primarolo: Information on the number of child they can be designated. The consultation is ongoing care places available in England and the North East and therefore we do not yet have detailed costs associated from 1997 to 2009 is shown in the following table. with each event. We estimate that, on average, each of Information is not available below local authority level. the 10 events, including design, strategic planning, Table 1: Number1 of childcare places2 for children under eight years of production, marketing, staffing and transport, will cost age, position at 31 March each year, 1997 to 2009 in the region of about £60,000. Between four and seven England North East region DECC staff attend each event over the course of each three day exhibition (open from 8 am to 8 pm) and 1997 1,230,400 3— public meeting. Accommodation and subsistence costs 1998 1,326,100 3— are not finalised at this early stage in the consultation 1999 1,480,400 68,300 423W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 424W

Table 1: Number1 of childcare places2 for children under eight years of Number1 of registered childminders in each local authority in the age, position at 31 March each year, 1997 to 2009 south-east: Position as at each quarter, 2009 England North East region Local authority, as at end: June September 2000 1,569,200 68,800 2001 1,670,600 67,700 Buckinghamshire 800 800 2002 4— 4— East Sussex 400 400 2003 1,281,300 51,600 Hampshire 2,200 2,200 2004 1,415,700 60,500 Isle of Wight 80 80 2005 1,468,300 62,400 Kent 1,600 1,600 2006 1,537,800 66,600 Medway 400 400 2007 1,551,100 69,800 Milton Keynes 400 400 2008 1.549,100 68,19.0 Oxfordshire 900 800 2009 1,346,100 54,100 Portsmouth 200 200 1 Figures have been rounded to the nearest 100. Reading 200 200 2 1997-2001—Data Source: Children’s Daycare Facilities Survey—total Slough 200 200 includes day nurseries, playgroups and pre-schools, childminders, out Southampton 200 200 of school clubs, and holiday schemes. Surrey 1,700 1,700 2003-08—Data Source: Ofsted—total includes full day care, sessional day care, childminders, out of school clubs, and crèche day care. West Berkshire 300 300 2009—Data Source: Ofsted—total includes childminders, childcare West Sussex 1,100 1,100 on non-domestic premises, childcare on domestic premises and home Windsor and 200 200 child carer. Maidenhead 3 Data not collected due to transfer of responsibility from LAs to Wokingham 300 300 Ofsted. 4 Accurate local authority level information is not available. 1 Figures have been rounded to the nearest 10 if under 100, and to the nearest 100 if over 100. Local authorities were responsible for the registration Source: and inspection of children’s day care facilities from Ofsted 1997 to 2001. Responsibility transferred to Ofsted from 2003 and correspondingly, the categories of childcare Children: Social Services changed from day nurseries, playgroups and pre-schools, childminders, out of school clubs and holiday schemes John Hemming: To ask the Secretary of State for to full and sessional day care, childminders, out of Children, Schools and Families if he will amend the school clubs, and crèche day care. Therefore, data from Integrated Children’s System to enable a pre-birth plan 2003 are not directly comparable with data prior to 2002. to be changed after birth. [300304] Data were not collected for 2002 during the transfer of responsibility to Ofsted. Due to changes in legislation Dawn Primarolo: Statutory guidance contained in Ofsted have changed the way they publish statistics on ‘Working Together to Safeguard Children’ sets out the registered childcare providers and places. From 1 September processes for managing individual cases when there are 2008, Ofsted started to record providers in line with new concerns about the welfare of a child, including of an legal requirements using the categories of childminders, unborn child. It also sets out the minimum time periods childcare on domestic premises, and childcare on non- for reviewing a plan. The local authority should record domestic premises. This change means that the total the plan electronically in its IT system, known as the numbers of providers and places (excluding childminding) Integrated Children’s System, and update the plan as shown in its returns up to and including August 2008 appropriate following a review. The same processes and from December 2008 onwards (the last under the apply when there are concerns about an unborn child: old system, and the first under the new system) are not any pre-birth plan will need to be reviewed following directly comparable. the baby’s birth. When a new plan has been developed, the previous plan should be archived in order to provide Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for an audit trail of the reasons for changes agreed at each Children, Schools and Families how many registered stage of the decision making process. childminders there were in each local authority area in the South East in each quarter of each year since 2003. Departmental Finance [304283] Mrs. May: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Dawn Primarolo: For information on the number of Schools and Families with reference to the Home registered childminders in each local authority in each Department’s Together we can end violence against quarter of each year from March 2003 to March 2009, I women and girls strategy, how much his Department refer the hon. Member to the reply given on 10 June plans to spend on family intervention projects in (a) 2009, Official Report, column 912W. 2009-10, (b) 2010-11 and (c) each of the subsequent Information from June 2009 is included in the following three years; and from what budget such expenditure will table. be drawn. [305311] Number1 of registered childminders in each local authority in the Dawn Primarolo: The Government allocated south-east: Position as at each quarter, 2009 £35.5 million for family intervention projects in 2009-10 Local authority, as at end: June September and are planning to allocate £57 million Government funding in 2010-11. Expenditure is being drawn from Bracknell Forest 300 300 the Department for Children, Schools and Families, Brighton and Hove 300 300 Home Office, Ministry of Justice, Communities and 425W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 426W

Local Government and Department of Health budgets. of secondary school pupils are participating in the In addition there is anticipated match funding of £9.5 young, gifted and talented programme in each local million from registered social landlords, housing associations authority area. [303732] and youth offending teams. Departmental budgets, and therefore the funding for family intervention projects, have yet to be determined Ms Diana R. Johnson: The Department does not beyond March 2011. Decisions will be made following collect data about participation in gifted and talented spending review discussions once the Department’s programmes. Through the School Census schools are settlement is agreed. asked to confirm the number of gifted and talented Secondary Education: Gifted Children pupils they have identified. The following table shows the number and percentage of children identified as Mr. Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, gifted and talented by LA for each Government office Schools and Families how many and what proportion region in the January 2009 census.

Maintained primary and state-funded secondary schools1, 2, number of pupils who are gifted and talented3 as at January 2009 In England by local authority and Government office region Maintained primary State-funded secondary Gifted and Gifted and Total pupils talented Percentage Total pupils talented Percentage

England 4,074,890 353,210 8.7 3,271,090 466,820 14.3

North East 203,810 18,110 8.9 170,720 22,100 12.9 Darlington 8,790 340 3.9 5,980 830 13.9 Durham 39,570 3,260 8.2 30,910 3,450 11.2 Gateshead 15,300 1,610 10.5 12,650 1,590 12.6 Hartlepool 8,660 970 11.2 6,340 1,070 16.9 Middlesbrough 13,570 1,120 8.2 8,530 1,040 12.2 Newcastle upon Tyne 19,080 1,830 9.6 16,250 1,890 11.6 North Tyneside 15,690 1,460 9.3 13,390 1,250 9.3 Northumberland 19,210 1,010 5.3 28,380 3,610 12.7 Redcar and Cleveland 12,510 1,310 10.4 9,420 1,650 17.5 South Tyneside 11,990 960 8.0 9,260 1,830 19.7 Stockton-on-Tees 16,950 1,710 10.1 11,700 1,280 11.0 Sunderland 22,500 2,530 11.2 17,910 2,590 14.5

North West 574,500 48,950 8.5 438,860 59,040 13.5 Blackburn with Darwen 14,240 790 5.5 9,430 1,430 15.1 Blackpool 11,290 1,100 9.8 8,180 640 7.9 Bolton 25,230 1,840 7.3 18,900 2,900 15.3 Bury 16,080 360 2.2 11,210 1,400 12.5 Cheshire 51,850 4,010 7.7 44,480 6,280 14.1 Cumbria 37,900 2,310 6.1 34,100 4,490 13.2 Halton 9,960 600 6.0 7,590 1,070 14.1 Knowsley 14,380 1,080 7.5 7,930 880 11.1 Lancashire 89,810 12,600 14.0 70,180 11,000 15.7 Liverpool 35,690 2,650 7.4 31,220 4,220 13.5 Manchester 40,840 3,910 9.6 23,550 3,250 13.8 Oldham 23,330 1,020 4.4 16,120 1,830 11.3 Rochdale 19,340 1,100 5.7 13,030 1,270 9.7 Salford 18,990 1,310 6.9 11,170 1,080 9.6 Sefton 21,860 2,050 9.4 19,260 2,130 11.1 St. Helens 14,730 1,410 9.6 10,940 1,620 14.8 Stockport 22,470 1,500 6.7 14,810 1,630 11.0 Tameside 19,650 1,870 9.5 14,620 2,340 16.0 Trafford 19,330 800 4.1 16,330 1,810 11.1 Warrington 17,190 1,810 10.5 13,550 2,080 15.4 Wigan 25,210 2,280 9.0 19,530 2,530 12.9 Wirral 25,150 2,560 10.2 22,750 3,180 14.0

Yorkshire and the Humber 433,590 36,050 8.3 334,760 42,070 12.6 Barnsley 19,220 1,180 6.1 13,240 2,010 15.1 Bradford 52,950 5,320 10.0 34,110 3,390 9.9 Calderdale 18,520 1,850 10.0 15,400 2,430 15.7 Doncaster 25,940 2,130 8.2 20,670 2,060 10.0 427W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 428W

Maintained primary and state-funded secondary schools1, 2, number of pupils who are gifted and talented3 as at January 2009 In England by local authority and Government office region Maintained primary State-funded secondary Gifted and Gifted and Total pupils talented Percentage Total pupils talented Percentage

East Riding of Yorkshire 24,610 1,710 7.0 22,650 2,630 11.6 Kingston Upon Hull, City of 21,070 2,360 11.2 14,130 1,580 11.2 Kirklees 35,720 2,820 7.9 26,000 3,690 14.2 Leeds 60,870 4,280 7.0 46,420 6,000 12.9 North East Lincolnshire 13,330 1,060 8.0 9,860 1,160 11.7 North Lincolnshire 13,560 980 7.2 10,150 630 6.2 North Yorkshire 42,960 2,550 5.9 40,530 6,140 15.1 Rotherham 22,780 2,250 9.9 19,590 2,510 12.8 Sheffield 41,630 3,730 9.0 30,830 3,590 11.7 Wakefield 27,590 2,570 9.3 21,370 2,570 12.0 York 12,840 1,270 9.9 9,810 1,670 17.0

East Midlands 351,160 31,360 8.9 294,390 40,780 13.9 Derby 21,470 1,930 9.0 16,330 2,360 14.5 Derbyshire 59,280 4,070 6.9 49,270 7,300 14.8 Leicester 27,880 2,710 9.7 18,110 2,090 11.6 Leicestershire 47,130 6,560 13.9 45,670 5,870 12.9 Lincolnshire 50,790 4,350 8.6 48,830 8,140 16.7 Northamptonshire 56,080 4,300 7.7 47,050 6,810 14.5 Nottingham 23,490 2,470 10.5 14,370 1,460 10.2 Nottinghamshire 62,520 4,740 7.6 52,410 6,530 12.5 Rutland 2,520 250 9.7 2,360 210 8.9

West Midlands 459,760 38,400 8.4 365,680 52,900 14.5 Birmingham 101,190 8,440 8.3 69,260 10,140 14.6 Coventry 27,290 2,730 10.0 20,660 3,360 16.3 Dudley 26,830 2,280 8.5 19,890 2,790 14.0 Herefordshire 12,520 1,000 8.0 10,020 1,270 12.7 Sandwell 30,020 2,160 7.2 20,320 2,580 12.7 Shropshire 20,950 2,000 9.5 17,250 2,160 12.5 Solihull 19,110 1,260 6.6 16,840 2,420 14.3 Staffordshire 61,140 2,840 4.6 58,070 6,580 11.3 Stoke-on-Trent 20,780 1,880 9.0 13,440 1,690 12.5 Telford and Wrekin 14,120 1,510 10.7 11,820 2,210 18.7 Walsall 25,560 2,140 8.4 21,010 3,280 15.6 Warwickshire 39,800 4,170 10.5 33,910 6,280 18.5 Wolverhampton 21,970 2,020 9.2 15,660 2,610 16.7 Worcestershire 38,480 3,980 10.3 37,540 5,550 14.8

East Of England 429,860 38,230 8.9 389,280 54,650 14.0 Bedfordshire 24,810 1,980 8.0 37,240 4,430 11.9 Cambridgeshire 43,740 4,290 9.8 32,480 4,580 14.1 Essex 104,360 8,910 8.5 89,220 10,990 12.3 Hertfordshire 92,250 7,630 8.3 80,320 12,520 15.6 Luton 18,810 1,540 8.2 12,250 1,680 13.7 Norfolk 58,860 6,010 10.2 49,770 7,430 14.9 Peterborough 15,590 1,180 7.6 13,210 2,730 20.6 Southend-on-Sea 13,410 2,090 15.5 12,920 2,290 17.7 Suffolk 44,190 3,230 7.3 52,920 7,230 13.7 Thurrock 13,830 1,380 9.9 8,950 770 8.6

London 633,180 51,400 8.1 446,510 62,890 14.1

Inner London 226,670 19,310 8.5 138,670 17,410 12.6 Camden 11,370 1,160 10.2 9,990 1,180 11.8 City of London 240 20 6.7 4— 4— 4— Hackney 17,750 1,610 9.1 8,070 1,230 15.2 Hammersmith and Fulham 9,690 920 9.5 6,890 1,070 15.5 429W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 430W

Maintained primary and state-funded secondary schools1, 2, number of pupils who are gifted and talented3 as at January 2009 In England by local authority and Government office region Maintained primary State-funded secondary Gifted and Gifted and Total pupils talented Percentage Total pupils talented Percentage

Haringey 21,600 1,500 6.9 13,090 1,930 14.8 Islington 13,670 1,200 8.7 8,200 850 10.3 Kensington and Chelsea 6,890 600 8.8 3,410 450 13.2 Lambeth 20,460 1,610 7.9 9,480 1,290 13.6 Lewisham 21,360 1,700 8.0 13,720 1,760 12.8 Newham 30,610 2,680 8.8 18,220 2,100 11.6 Southwark 21,840 1,520 7.0 13,100 1,270 9.7 Tower Hamlets 22,730 2,200 9.7 14,490 1,840 12.7 Wandsworth 17,560 1,640 9.3 11,410 1,340 11.7 Westminster 10,900 940 8.6 8,600 1,090 12.7

Outer London 406,520 32,100 7.9 307,850 45,480 14.8 Barking and Dagenham 19,500 930 4.8 12,920 1,230 9.5 Barnet 26,660 2,570 9.6 21,240 3,630 17.1 Bexley 20,290 1,980 9.8 19,980 3,510 17.6 Brent 23,770 1,630 6.8 18,070 2,450 13.5 Bromley 23,570 1,570 6.7 22,470 3,800 16.9 Croydon 29,250 1,600 5.5 20,660 2,790 13.5 Ealing 27,110 1,330 4.9 17,280 1,850 10.7 Enfield 28,090 2,430 8.7 22,090 5,090 23.0 Greenwich 21,370 1,640 7.7 14,590 1,820 12.5 Harrow 19,620 1,680 8.6 10,000 1,700 17.0 Havering 19,180 2,270 11.8 16,620 2,120 12.7 Hillingdon 24,960 2,290 9.2 18,400 2,860 15.5 Hounslow 19,320 1,620 8.4 16,560 1,930 11.7 Kingston upon Thames 11,830 1,110 9.4 9,780 1,230 12.5 Merton 15,660 1,310 8.4 8,490 1,180 13.9 Redbridge 25,550 2,260 8.8 21,450 3,310 15.4 Richmond upon Thames 13,530 1,120 8.3 6,690 850 12.6 Sutton 14,780 810 5.5 16,670 2,220 13.3 Waltham Forest 22,480 1,930 8.6 13,890 1,920 13.8

South East 622,050 57,960 9.3 507,570 81,160 16.0 Bracknell Forest 8,920 680 7.6 6,260 840 13.4 Brighton and Hove 17,230 2,140 12.4 12,110 2,160 17.8 Buckinghamshire 39,770 3,930 9.9 34,590 7,130 20.6 East Sussex 35,080 3,770 10.7 27,660 4,150 15.0 Hampshire 94,520 10,780 11.4 70,380 9,080 12.9 Isle of Wight 6,260 720 11.5 11,570 1,240 10.7 Kent 108,670 12,350 11.4 100,150 18,390 18.4 Medway 22,100 2,120 9.6 19,640 4,040 20.6 Milton Keynes 21,500 1,390 6.4 16,200 2,250 13.9 Oxfordshire 47,140 3,640 7.7 36,550 6,370 17.4 Portsmouth 13,790 1,910 13.8 9,160 1,080 11.8 Reading 10,810 590 5.4 6,160 1,150 18.6 Slough 12,420 840 6.7 9,810 860 8.8 Southampton 16,020 1,700 10.6 10,670 1,290 12.1 Surrey 78,660 3,390 4.3 59,130 7,070 11.9 West Berkshire 12,230 1,450 11.8 12,140 2,230 18.4 West Sussex 56,080 5,120 9.1 45,000 8,770 19.5 Windsor and Maidenhead 8,480 530 6.2 10,130 1,160 11.4 Wokingham 12,380 920 7.4 10,280 1,910 18.6

South West 366,980 32,750 8.9 323,300 51,240 15.8 Bath and North East Somerset 11,820 660 5.6 12,440 1,420 11.4 Bournemouth 10,260 1,100 10.7 9,690 1,810 18.7 Bristol, City of 29,090 2,640 9.1 17,220 1,780 10.3 Cornwall 37,700 3,010 8.0 31,910 4,700 14.7 Devon 51,900 5,460 10.5 42,800 6,840 16.0 431W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 432W

Maintained primary and state-funded secondary schools1, 2, number of pupils who are gifted and talented3 as at January 2009 In England by local authority and Government office region Maintained primary State-funded secondary Gifted and Gifted and Total pupils talented Percentage Total pupils talented Percentage

Dorset 23,830 1,580 6.6 29,690 3,310 11.1 Gloucestershire 41,840 3,930 9.4 39,910 6,310 15.8 Isles of Scilly 270 10 2.6 4— 4— 4— North Somerset 15,120 1,200 7.9 12,770 2,460 19.3 Plymouth 18,480 1,870 10.1 18,050 2,930 16.2 Poole 10,120 780 7.7 8,420 1,980 23.5 Somerset 35,460 3,570 10.1 31,520 6,510 20.6 South Gloucestershire 20,910 1,470 7.0 18,230 2,710 14.9 Swindon 16,290 1,790 11.0 12,390 1,810 14.6 Torbay 9,520 1,080 11.3 8,700 1,800 20.7 Wiltshire 34,380 2,620 7.6 29,580 4,900 16.5 1 Includes middle schools as deemed. 2 Includes City Technology Colleges and Academies 3 Excludes dually registered pupils. 4 No schools of this type. Note: Figures have been rounded to the nearest 10 Source: School Census

Youth Opportunity Fund: Youth Capital Fund Mr. Straw: The Independent Advisory Panel on Judicial Diversity, chaired by Baroness Neuberger, did not exist Dr. Blackman-Woods: To ask the Secretary of State before April 2009 and is now due to produce its report for Children, Schools and Families how many young and conclude its work in early 2010. Therefore, the people received funding from the Youth Opportunity Panel will only be operational for less than a calendar Fund and Youth Capital Fund in the latest period for year and so will not have ongoing annual running costs. which figures are available. [304991] The costs of the Panel, from April 2009 to the end of October, were £20,975, excluding secretariat staff costs. Dawn Primarolo: In 2008-09 (the latest period for which figures are available) a total of 905,227 young people were either involved in or benefited from use of Crimes of Violence: Sentencing the Youth Opportunity and Youth Capital Funds, with 14,163 grants approved during that period. These latest Ben Chapman: To ask the Secretary of State for figures mean that almost 2.5 million young people have Justice what sentencing guidance is provided to courts been involved in or benefited from these Funds in the on crimes of violence with a homophobic motive. first three years of operation. [304761]

Claire Ward: The Criminal Justice Act (CJA) 2003 JUSTICE (section 146) applies to cases where immediately before or during the offence the offender demonstrated hostility Advisory Panel on Judicial Diversity towards the victim based upon sexual orientation or disability, or to cases where the offence is motivated by Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice hostility towards persons who are of a particular sexual how many people worked for the Advisory Panel on orientation or who have a disability. Courts must treat Judicial Diversity in each of the last three years. those circumstances as an aggravating factor, and sentencers [304319] must state in open court that the offence was so aggravated. It is the responsibility of the independent Sentencing Mr. Straw: The Independent Advisory Panel on Judicial Guidelines Council to issue guidelines to the courts. Diversity, chaired by Baroness Neuberger, did not exist The council’s guideline on seriousness draws the courts’ before April 2009 and is now due to produce its report attention to the statutory provision for aggravation in and conclude its work in early 2010. Therefore, the such circumstances. panel will only be operational for less than a calendar year. Driving Offences The Advisory Panel on Judicial Diversity has no separate support. It is being supported by officials from within the Constitution and Judiciary Division of the Andrew Stunell: To ask the Secretary of State for Ministry of Justice, within existing budgets. None of Justice how many people (a) were convicted and (b) the officials work full-time for or on the advisory panel, served a custodial sentence for drink-driving offences but, seven spend significant time on it. in each police authority area in (i) 2008 and (ii) 2009. [304785] Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how much the Advisory Panel on Judicial Diversity Claire Ward: Court proceedings data are planned for cost in each of the last three years. [304320] publication on 28 January 2010. 433W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 434W

EU Law Mr. Wills: On 16 July 2009, the Government published the response to its consultation on extending the Freedom Gregory Barker: To ask the Secretary of State for of Information Act by means of a section 5 order. Justice what (a) statutory instruments and (b) other Academy schools were one of four bodies proposed for regulations his Department has brought forward to inclusion in this first section 5 order. These bodies are meet obligations arising from EU law in this currently being consulted about their possible inclusion Parliament. [304182] in a section 5 order and their responses will be taken into account in reaching a final decision on whether to Mr. Wills: The Statutory Instruments Registrar has designate them as public authorities under the Act. maintained central records of statutory instruments Subject to the outcome of this consultation, the made under specific powers, including those in the Government aim to bring forward a section 5 order European Communities Act 1972, since 2001. There is early in the 2009-10 session. no central record of which statutory instruments were made using other powers in order to meet obligations Hunting Act 2004: Prosecutions arising from EU law, and it would be disproportionately costly to create such a record now. There is also no Damian Green: To ask the Secretary of State for central record of “other regulations”. Since 2001, the Justice how many (a) prosecutions and (b) convictions Ministry of Justice and its predecessor departments there have been at courts in Kent for offences under the (the Lord Chancellor’s Department and the Department Hunting Act 2004 in each year since the Act came into for Constitutional Affairs) have been responsible for 17 force. [304862] statutory instruments made using the powers in the European Communities Act 1972. A list of those Claire Ward: The Hunting Act 2004 came into force instruments is as follows: on 18 February 2005. For the period up to the end of 2007 (latest available) no prosecutions under the Act SI No. SI Title had been reported for the purposes of the Court Proceedings 2001/310 European Communities (Matrimonial Jurisdiction and Database now held by the Ministry of Justice. Judgments) Regulations 2001 Data for 2008 are planned for publication on 28 January 2001/ Civil Jurisdiction and Judgments (Authentic 2010. 3928 Instruments and Court Settlements) Order 2001 2001/ Civil Jurisdiction and Judgments Order 2001 Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice 3929 how many (a) prosecutions and (b) convictions there 2002/ European Communities (Rights against Insurers) were for offences under the Hunting Act 2004 in 3061 Regulations 2002 (a) 2008 and (b) 2009 to date. [304574] 2004/293 European Parliamentary Elections Regulations 2004 2004/304 European Communities (Definition of Treaties) (Common Electoral Principles) Order 2004 Mr. Straw: Court proceedings data for 2008 are planned for publication on 28 January 2010. 2004/ European Communities (Services of Lawyers) 1117 (Amendment) Order 2004 2004/ European Parliamentary Elections (Common Electoral Legal Aid 1374 Principles) Regulations 2004 2004/ European Communities (Lawyer’s Practice) Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice (1) 1628 (Amendment) Regulations 2004 how much his Department received from each other 2005/265 European Communities (Jurisdiction and Judgments in Government department from the legal aid impact test Matrimonial and Parental Responsibility Matters) Regulations 2005 in each year since 1999; [304499] 2007/ Civil Jurisdiction and Judgments Regulations 2007 (2) what proportion of money received from other 1655 Government departments as a consequence of the legal 2008/ European Parliament (House of Lords aid impact test in the last 10 years has been allocated to 1647 Disqualification) Regulations 2008 the Legal Aid Fund. [304500] 2008/ Law Applicable to Non-Contractual Obligations 2986 (England and Wales and Northern Ireland) Bridget Prentice: Funding received from other Regulations 2008 Government Departments for legal aid since 2005-06, 2008/81 European Communities (Lawyer’s Practice and when the legal aid impact test was introduced, is shown Services of Lawyers) (Amendment) Regulations 2008 in the following table. 2009/726 European Parliamentary Elections (Franchise of Relevant Citizens of the Union) (Amendment) All the funding received was allocated to the legal aid Regulations 2009 fund. 2009/ Law Applicable to Contractual Obligations (England Transfers from other Government Department 3064 and Wales and Northern Ireland) Regulations 2009 £000 2009/ Civil Jurisdiction and Judgments Regulations 2009 3131 2005-06 Department for Education and Skills—Adoption 1,868 and Children Act 2002 Freedom of Information: Academies 2006-07 Department for the Environment and Rural 35 Affairs—Clean Neighbourhood and Environment Paul Holmes: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Act 2005 whether he plans to bring forward proposals to apply to academy schools the provisions of the Freedom of 2007-08 Home Office—Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 178 Information Act 2000. [305408] 435W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 436W

Transfers from other Government Department Legal Profession: Females £000 Mr. Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State 2008-09 Home Office—Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 283 for Justice what recent progress has been made on Home Office automatic deportation 705 increasing the level of access of women to senior positions in the legal profession. [305002] Department for Work and Pensions—Child 3,200 Support Reform Funding Department of Health—Mental Health Tribunal 790 Bridget Prentice: The legal professions have attracted funding significant criticism over the years for not representing Department for Work and Pensions—Employment 760 the diverse society in which we live. However, this and Support Allowance funding criticism has put diversity at the top of the agenda for the professions and their response has been encouraging. 2009-10 Home Office—Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 286 In 1998 women accounted for 53.6 per cent. of Department for Work and Pensions Employment 4,600 traineeships registered with the Law Society.This increased and Support Allowance (jobcentre plus) Appeals steadily to 63.4 per cent. in 2007-08. Therefore the focus Court funding of the debate has in many ways shifted towards ensuring Department for Work and Pensions—Child 4,500 Support Reform Funding that diversity is maintained at all levels within the Department of Health—Mental Health Tribunal 1,891 professions and that progression is not in any way funding linked to an individual’s gender. Home Office—European Environment Agency 135 In 1998 women made up 17 per cent. of partners at modelling law firms in England and Wales, compared to 24 per Home Office—automatic deportation 1,190 cent. in 2008. In 1998 less than 6.5 per cent. of all Total 20,421 Queen’s Counsellors were female; a decade later this figure was 10 per cent. In addition to this progression in law it is important to remember that according to the Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice (1) Association of Women’s Solicitors (AWS), women are what assessment has been made of the efficacy of the more successful when working in-house in the legal legal aid impact test; [304501] departments of industrial and commercial companies; (2) what guidance his Department provides to other for example, women head the legal teams at BT, Serco departments on completing the legal aid impact test; and the London Development Agency. and what models and analysis are used to assess the A variety of programmes has been initiated in order impact of proposed legislation on the legal aid budget; to improve further women’s career progression in the [304502] legal professions. 11 per cent. of judges and recorders in (3) what research his Department has conducted into 1999 were female; today this figure is 19.4 per cent.. The the effectiveness of the legal aid impact test. [304503] Ministry of Justice is devoting considerable effort and resources to continue to improve diversity in the judiciary. Bridget Prentice: The legal aid and judicial impact In April 2009 the Lord Chancellor established an test (LAJIT) was introduced in 2005 to formalise the independent Advisory Panel on Judicial Diversity, to arrangements under which Departments responsible identify the barriers to progress on judicial diversity for policy change had an obligation to meet the downstream and make recommendations on how to make speedier costs falling to other agencies. The purpose of the and sustained progress to a more diverse judiciary at LAJIT is to ensure that policy makers are aware of the every level. The panel is expected to build upon the potential impact that their proposals could have on work that is already under way in this area, and to draw legal aid and the courts so that resources can be better on lessons learned from current initiatives, including managed and, where appropriate, funding secured from the Judicial Appointments Commission’s Judicial Diversity other Government Departments. The Better Regulation Forum and the follow-up work from the Lord Chief Executive (BRE) has oversight of the overall Impact Justice’s conference on ″A Judiciary for the 21st century″. Assessment process across Government, and owns the In the private sector, the Association of Women’s relevant templates and guidance. Its guidance toolkit Solicitors, alongside major City law firms such as Lovells, includes specific guidance for policy makers in Departments have undertaken research which identifies that key barriers on the LAJIT. for women are that they do not have role models or are The models and analysis used to assess the impact of self-promoting enough. Accordingly they are running proposed policy changes on the legal aid budget include ’soft skill’ programmes to encourage women to acknowledge identifying instances where legal aid could potentially their own success more, and for 20 years AWS have run be required and applying suitable unit costs, These a mentoring scheme so that new entries into the profession estimates are agreed between the MoJ and the Department can be paired with more experienced female lawyers in introducing the policy. order to pass on experience and contacts. AWS is also at No formal research or assessment of the legal aid the centre of encouraging law firms to adapt flexible impact test has been carried out. The BRE is, however, working, so that mothers can still have a legal career revising the impact assessment template, toolkit and alongside their family lives. guidance in order to promote the continued improvement 60 per cent. of new solicitors are now female. It may of impact assessments. This work is due for completion take up to a decade for these new lawyers to become in the first half of 2010. As part of that project, Ministry partners in big city firms, and we look forward to more of Justice officials are working with BRE to review the diversity at all levels of the legal profession in the future legal aid impact test. thanks to the progress we are making now. 437W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 438W

Legal Services Commission: North West Table 2 Firm 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 Non Non Non Asylum Asylum Asylum Asylum Asylum Asylum Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice which organisations in the North West Firm 1 1,089 1,610 1,322 1,487 1,400 2,276 procurement area received funds from the Legal Firm 2 346 517 512 285 502 221 Services Commission in (a) 2006-07, (b) 2007-08 and Firm 3 341 195 609 112. 851 148 (c) 2008-09; and for each such organisation how many Firm 4 280 322 393 168 349 142 (i) asylum and (ii) non-asylum immigration cases they Firm 5 173 153 200 134 246 138 had in which Legal Services Commission funding Firm 6 46 183 74 119 72 149 started in each of those years. [304225] Firm 7 26 210 27 208 9 133 Firm 8 69 137 74 107 119 88 Firm 9 165 144 7 10 114 119 Bridget Prentice: The information in Table 1 shows Firm 10 54 134 53 117 42 157 active legal aid providers in the north-west procurement Firm 11 149 37 114 23 147 50 area for financial years 2006-07, 2007/08 and 2008-09 Firm 12 76 99 48 82 70 74 and whether they delivered immigration and/or asylum Firm 13 68 72 47 67 58 72 work. Table 2 shows immigration and asylum cases Firm 14 40 104 51 108, 16 51 started. Firm 15 92 17 85 6 81 63 Firm 16 73 68 26 42 55 61 Table 1 Firm 17 7 32 7 130 27 95 Provider name 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 Firm 18 56 80 30 35 — — Non Non Non Asylum Asylum Asylum Asylum Asylum Asylum Firm 19 58 — 33 6 41 25 Firm 20 87 49 — — — — ASLaw YesYesYesYesYesYesFirm 21 33 77 1 6 — — BeeversSolicitorsYesNoNoNoNoNoFirm 22 66 4 — — — — Binas Solicitors Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Firm 23 28 16 1 4 — — Birchfields Solicitors Yes Yes No No No No Firm 24 42 — — — — — Bolton and District YesYesYesYesYesYesFirm 25 12 27 — — . — — CAB Firm 26 12 — — — — — Brighouse Wolff No Yes No No No No Firm 27 — — — — — 10 Bury Law Centre Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Firm 28 — 3 — — — — Clifford Johnston YesYesYesYesYesYes and Co Firm29———— 1— E Rex Makin and No No No No Yes No 3,488 4,290 3,714 3,256 4,200 4,072 Co Notes: Graham Leigh No No No No No Yes 1. To protect commercial interests of the providers involved, the table has been Pfeffer and Co anonymised and is not reflective of the order in Table 1. Greater Manchester YesYesYesYesYesYes2. NMS figures are the number of new matters reported at the end of the Immigration Aid relevant financial year. Unit 3. Some firms reported zero NMS though they held a contract in these categories of law. Immigration YesYesYesYesYesYes Advisory Service Jackson and Canter YesYesYesYesYesYes LLP Monarchy: Succession Liverpool Central Yes Yes No No No No Cab Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for Mohammed and Co Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Justice what advice he has received on the compatibility Molesworths Bright Yes Yes Yes Yes No No Clegg with the provisions of the Human Rights Act 1998 of National Youth YesNoNoNoNoNo(a) the rights of illegitimates in succession to the Advocacy Service Crown and (b) the UK’s interpretative declaration in North Manchester YesYesYesYesYesYesrespect of Articles 9 and 10 of the European Law Centre Convention on the Legal Status of Children born out Norton and Co Yes Yes No No No No of Wedlock. [304268] Oldham Law Centre Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Oldham YesYesYesYesYesYes Metropolitan Mr. Wills: The Human Rights Act 1998 does not Citizens Advice require the UK to change the law so as to admit Bureau illegitimate children to the line of succession to the Robert Lizar Yes Yes Yes Yes No No Crown. The UK’s interpretative declaration in respect Rochdale Law YesYesYesYesYesYesof Articles 9 and 10 of the European Convention on the Centre Legal Status of Children Born out of Wedlock is compatible Rogerson Galvin Yes No Yes Yes Yes Yes with the Act. SFN Solicitors Yes Yes Yes Yes No No South Manchester YesYesYesYesYesYes Law Centre Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for Southerns Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Justice what advice was given to Ministers on the effect The Watson YesYesYesYesYesYesof the Human Rights Act 1998 on the rights of Ramsbottom illegitimates in succession to the Crown (a) prior to Partnership and (b) during the passage of the legislation through Trafford Law Centre Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Parliament. [304269] 439W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 440W

Mr. Wills: This information is not readily accessible Offenders: Rehabilitation and if it exists could be obtained only at disproportionate cost. Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for how many prisoners in each prison establishment Justice what steps the Government has taken in respect participated in each type of offender behaviour of the UK’s interpretative declaration in respect of programme in the latest 12 months for which figures Articles 9 and 10 of the European Convention on the are available. [303933] Legal Status of Children born out of Wedlock in order to secure the conformity in UK law required by Article 1 of the Convention. [304270] Mr. Straw: The tables set out the number of starts by prisoners in 2008-09 for each type of accredited offending Mr. Wills: UK law already conforms with the provisions behaviour programmes by prison. The figures have been of the Convention and therefore no such steps are drawn from administrative data systems and although necessary. The declaration simply confirms our care is taken when processing and analysing the returns, understanding of the effect of Articles 9 and 10 of the the detail collected is subject to the inaccuracies inherent Convention. in any large scale recording system.

Number of starts for prisoners who undertook an accredited offending behaviour programme by prison in 2008-09 Drugs and Alcohol 12 Step 12 Step TC PASRO Establishment (HMPS) (RAPt) STOP SDP PASRO ADTP TC (Women) FOCUS (Women) ARV

Acklington — — 36 — — — — — — — — Albany————————— —— Altcourse — — 96 240 — — — — — — — Ashwell————72———— —— Aylesbury————60———— —— Bedford — — — 237 — — — — — — — Belmarsh — — — 120 — — — — — — — Birmingham — — — 120 — — — — — — — Blakenhurst — — — 240 — — — — — — — Blundeston — ———96———— —— Brinsford————————— —— Bristol — — — 120 — — — — — — — Brixton — — — 108 96 — — — — — — Buckley Hall — ———————— —— Bullingdon — 96 — 240 — 84 — — — — — Camp Hill — ———96———— —— Cardiff————84———— —— Castington — — — 100 — — — — — — — Channings ——————66—— —— Wood Chelmsford — ———60———— —10 Coldingley—100——————— —— Dartmoor 35 ———84———— —— Deerbolt — ———80———— —— Doncaster — — — 240 — — — — — — — Dorchester — — — 120 — — — — — — — Dovegate————————— —— Downview — — — 32 — — — — — — — DrakeHall———————16——— Durham————96———— —— Eastwood ———96————— —— Park Edmunds Hill — ———96———— —— Elmley — — — 120 96 — — — — — — Erlestoke60———————— —— Everthorpe — 67 — — 96 — — — — — — Exeter — — — 120 — — — — — — — Featherstone————96———— —— Ford———117——————— Forest Bank — — — 204 — — — — — — 10 FostonHall————————— —— Frankland — ———————19—— FullSutton————————18—— Garth——————40—— —— Gartree — — 36 — — — — — — — — 441W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 442W

Number of starts for prisoners who undertook an accredited offending behaviour programme by prison in 2008-09 Drugs and Alcohol 12 Step 12 Step TC PASRO Establishment (HMPS) (RAPt) STOP SDP PASRO ADTP TC (Women) FOCUS (Women) ARV

Glen Parva — — — 130 50 — — — — — 10 Gloucester — — — 120 — — — — — — — Guys Marsh — ———96———— —— Haverigg————96———— —— Hewell————————— —— High Down — — — 84 — — — — — — — Highpoint — — 48 — 96 — — — — — — Hindley————60———— —— Hollesley Bay — — — 120 — — — — — — — Holloway — — — 120 — — — — — 10 — Holme House — — — 120 — — 65 — — — — Hull———84————— —10 Kingston————24———— —— Kirkham — ———96———— —— Lancaster 64———72———— —— Castle Lancaster ———70————— —— Farms Leeds — — — 120 — — — — — — — Leicester — — — 120 — — — — — — — Lewes————96———— —— Leyhill — — — 24 — — — — — — — Lincoln — — — 122 — — — — — — — Lindholme — — — — 144 — — — — — — Littlehey — 61 ——————— —— Liverpool — ———72———— —— Long Lartin — ———————16—— LowNewton————————— 50— Lowdham ————————— —— Grange Maidstone————96———— —— Manchester — ———————— —— Moorland — ———35———— —— Mount — 102 ——————— —— New Hall — — — 87 — — — — — — — North Sea ———101——————— Camp Northallerton — — — 100 — — — — — — — Norwich—60——————— —— Nottingham — — — 120 — — — — — — — Onley————92———— —— Parc————96———— —— Parkhurst — ———————— —— Pentonville — — — 120 96 — — — — — — Peterborough — — — 120 — — — — — — — Portland————80———— —— Preston — — — 144 — — — — — — — Ranby————96———— —— Reading — — — 80 — — — — — — — Risley————96———— —— Rochester — ———80———— —— RyeHill————————— —— Ryehill————————— —— Send — 56 ——————— —— Shepton ————————— —— Mallet Stafford————96———— —— Standford Hill — ———————— —— Stocken — — 96 — — — — — — — — StokeHeath————80———— —— Styal — — — 259 — — — — — — — Sudbury — ———————— —— Swaleside—93——————— —— Swansea — — — 120 — — — — — — — 443W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 444W

Number of starts for prisoners who undertook an accredited offending behaviour programme by prison in 2008-09 Drugs and Alcohol 12 Step 12 Step TC PASRO Establishment (HMPS) (RAPt) STOP SDP PASRO ADTP TC (Women) FOCUS (Women) ARV

SwinfenHall————80———— —— The Mount — ———————— —— The Verne — ———————— —— Thorn Cross — — — 98 — — — — — — — Usk————————— —— Wakefield————————18—— Wandsworth — 60 — 72 — — — — — — — WarrenHill————————— —— Wayland————96———— —— Wealstun — — 48 — 96 — — — — — — Wellingborough — — — — 102 — — — — — — Wetherby————————— —— Whatton————————— —— Whitemoor — ———————10—— Winchester — — — 120 72 — — — — — — Wolds————————— —— Woodhill — ———————— —— Wormwood — — — 203 95 — — — — — — Scrubs Wymott — —————69—— —— Grand total 159 695 360 5,552 3,594 84 240 16 81 60 40

Sex Offender Treatment Establishment Adapted Core Rolling Extended BLB HSF

Acklington 8 9 28 — — — Albany — 44 — 27 — — Altcourse — — — — — — Ashwell — — — — — — Aylesbury — 18 — — — — Bedford —————— Belmarsh — — — — — — Birmingham —————— Blakenhurst —————— Blundeston —————— Brinsford — — — — — — Bristol —————— Brixton — — — — — — Buckley Hall —————— Bullingdon — 27 31 — 26 — Camp Hill —————— Cardiff — — — — — — Castington — — — — — — Channings Wood — 18 — — 18 — Chelmsford —————— Coldingley — — — — — — Dartmoor —————— Deerbolt —————— Doncaster —————— Dorchester — — — — — — Dovegate — — — — — — Downview — — — — — — Drake Hall — — — — — — Durham — — — — — — Eastwood Park — — — — — — Edmunds Hill —————— Elmley — — 16 — — — Erlestoke — — — — — — Everthorpe — — — — — — Exeter — — — — — — Featherstone — — — — — — Ford—————— Forest Bank —————— 445W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 446W

Sex Offender Treatment Establishment Adapted Core Rolling Extended BLB HSF

Foston Hall — — — — — — Frankland 8 9 — 9 — 4 Full Sutton — 14 19 9 — 2 Garth — — — — — — Gartree — — — — — — Glen Parva — — — — — — Gloucester —————— Guys Marsh —————— Haverigg — — — — — — Hewell—————— High Down — — — — — — Highpoint —————— Hindley — — — — — — Hollesley Bay — — — — — — Holloway — — — — — — Holme House —————— Hull — 27 56 — — — Kingston — — — — — — Kirkham —————— Lancaster Castle —————— Lancaster Farms —————— Leeds —————— Leicester — — — — — — Lewes—————— Leyhill —————— Lincoln —————— Lindholme —————— Littlehey — — 41 — — — Liverpool —————— Long Lartin —————— LowNewton—————— Lowdham Grange —————— Maidstone — 18 — — 8 — Manchester 8 9 — — — — Moorland —————— Mount —————— New Hall — — — — — — North Sea Camp —————— Northallerton — — — — — — Norwich — — — — — — Nottingham —————— Onley — — — — — — Parc — — 23 — — — Parkhurst —————— Pentonville —————— Peterborough —————— Portland — — — — — — Preston — — — — — — Ranby — — — — — — Reading —————— Risley — 36 27 9 8 5 Rochester —————— Rye Hill — — — — — — Ryehill818———— Send —————— Shepton Mallet — 9 — 9 8 — Stafford—1834——— Standford Hill —————— Stocken — — — — — — Stoke Heath — — — — — — Styal—————— Sudbury —————— Swaleside — — — — — — 447W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 448W

Sex Offender Treatment Establishment Adapted Core Rolling Extended BLB HSF

Swansea — — — — — — Swinfen Hall — 26 — 8 12 — The Mount —————— The Verne —————— Thorn Cross —————— Usk169——— 2 Wakefield — 18 — 9 9 3 Wandsworth — 36 25 — — — Warren Hill — — — — — — Wayland — 27 — — 16 — Wealstun — — — — — — Wellingborough —————— Wetherby — — — — — — Whatton32543495817 Whitemoor —————— Winchester —————— Wolds—————— Woodhill —————— Wormwood Scrubs — — — — — — Wymott 8 27 — — 9 — Grand total 88 471 334 89 172 33

Offending Behaviour Establishment ETS HRP TSP CALM BOOSTER CSCP FOR CHROMIS Grand total

Acklington 79 16 10 — — — — — 186 Albany90—————— —161 Altcourse———— ——— —336 Ashwell80—————— —152 Aylesbury 108 — — 40 — — — — 226 Bedford ———— ——— —237 Belmarsh———— ——— —120 Birmingham 58——— 5—— —183 Blakenhurst ———— ——— —240 Blundeston 60——327—— —195 Brinsford36—————— —36 Bristol 60——— ——— —180 Brixton39—————— —243 Buckley Hall 55——— ——— —55 Bullingdon 109 — — — — — — — 613 Camp Hill 90 — — 8 — — — — 194 Cardiff80——32——— —196 Castington 24 — 16 — — — — — 140 Channings Wood 80——— —1— —183 Chelmsford 61——— ——— —131 Coldingley———— ——— —100 Dartmoor 59——31——— —209 Deerbolt 74 — 10 — — — — — 164 Doncaster ———— ——— —240 Dorchester———— ——— —120 Dovegate45—————— —45 Downview40—————— —72 DrakeHall60———13—— —89 Durham———— ——— —96 EastwoodPark———— ——— —96 Edmunds Hill ———— ——— —96 Elmley 70 — — 8 — — — — 310 Erlestoke 60 16 — — — — — — 136 Everthorpe70—————— —233 Exeter50—————— —170 Featherstone67——2420—— —207 Ford 10———7—— —134 Forest Bank ———— ——— —214 FostonHall19———10—— —29 449W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 450W

Offending Behaviour Establishment ETS HRP TSP CALM BOOSTER CSCP FOR CHROMIS Grand total

Frankland 80——— ——— 57186 FullSutton69—————— —131 Garth 100 8 10 24 — — — — 182 Gartree 80 16 — 48 — 15 — — 195 GlenParva89——24——— —303 Gloucester ———— ——— —120 Guys Marsh 90——— ——— —186 Haverigg———— ——— —96 Hewell60———10—— —70 HighDown———— ——— —84 Highpoint 90——— 33—— —267 Hindley 70 — — 8 — — — — 138 HollesleyBay———— 24—— —144 Holloway———— ——47—177 Holme House 50——— ——— —235 Hull 120 — — — — — 6 — 303 Kingston———16——— —40 Kirkham ———— ——— —96 Lancaster Castle ———— ——— —136 Lancaster Farms 80——— ——— —150 Leeds ———— ——— —120 Leicester———— ——— —120 Lewes29—————— —125 Leyhill 39——— 29—— —92 Lincoln ———— ——— —122 Lindholme 70 — 20 — — — — — 234 Littlehey 90——— ——— —192 Liverpool 60——— ——— —132 Long Lartin 30——40—7— —93 LowNewton39—————62—151 Lowdham Grange 100 — — 40 — — — — 140 Maidstone 100 — — — — — — — 222 Manchester 60 16 — — — — — — 93 Moorland 70——24——— —129 Mount ———— ——— —102 New Hall 20 — 20 — — — 35 — 162 North Sea Camp ———— ——— —101 Northallerton———— ——— —100 Norwich76—————— —136 Nottingham ———— ——— —120 Onley70—————— —162 Parc 40—————81—240 Parkhurst 89——24——— —113 Pentonville 140 — — 48 — — — — 404 Peterborough 68 — 9 — — — — — 197 Portland 81 — — 8 — — — — 169 Preston70—————— —214 Ranby 100 — — — — — — — 196 Reading 49——— ——— —129 Risley 100 — 20 40 — — — — 341 Rochester ———— ——— —80 RyeHill90—————— —90 Ryehill———— ——— —26 Send 30——— ——— —86 Shepton Mallet 20——— 25—— —71 Stafford 100 — — — 19 — — — 267 Standford Hill ———— 10—— —10 Stocken 91 8 — 32 — — — — 227 StokeHeath62—————— —142 Styal 40—————— —299 Sudbury 10——— 30—— —40 Swaleside 140 — — 32 30 — — — 295 Swansea30—————— —150 Swinfen Hall 129 — — 40 38 — — — 333 451W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 452W

Offending Behaviour Establishment ETS HRP TSP CALM BOOSTER CSCP FOR CHROMIS Grand total

The Mount 60——16——— —76 The Verne 70——16——— —86 Thorn Cross 89——— ——— —187 Usk 60—————— —87 Wakefield62—————— —119 Wandsworth 90——— ——— —283 WarrenHill48—————— —48 Wayland 130 — — — 9 — — — 278 Wealstun 39 — 30 — — — — — 213 Wellingborough 90——— ——— —192 Wetherby40—————— —40 Whatton 110 16 — 23 30 — — — 383 Whitemoor 40——40——— —90 Winchester ———— ——— —192 Wolds30——2432—— —86 Woodhill 59——— ——— —59 WormwoodScrubs59—————— —357 Wymott 150 — — — 20 — — — 283 Grand total 6,269 96 145 742 401 23 231 57 20,032 Key: STOP—Substance Treatment and Offending Programme SDP—Short Duration Programme PASRO—Prison Addressing Substance Related Offending ADTP—Alcohol Dependency Treatment Programme TC—Therapeutic Community FOCUS—A Cognitive Behavioural Therapy (CBT) programme (High Security estate only) ARV—Alcohol Related Violence (formerly Alcohol Free Good Lives programme) BLB—Better Lives Booster HSF—Healthy Sexual Functioning ETS—Enhanced Thinking Skills HRP—Healthy Relationships Programme TSP—Thinking Skills Programme CALM—Controlling Anger and Learning to Manage it Booster—Cognitive Skills Booster CSCP—Cognitive Self Change Programme FOR—motivational resettlement programme Chromis—programme for offenders with psychopathic traits

Office of Public Sector Information: Marketing (2) how many people worked for the Pathogens Access Appeals Commission in each of the last three Mr. Hurd: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice years; [304315] with reference to the answer of 14 September 2009, (3) how much the Pathogens Access Appeals Official Report, column 2153W, on third sector, which Commission cost in each of the last three years. Minister took the decision to rebrand Her Majesty’s [304316] Stationery Office to the Office of Public Sector Information; and whether Her Majesty was consulted. [305061] Mr. Straw: The fee for the Chair of the Pathogens Access Appeals Commission (PAAC) is £894 per day. Mr. Wills: Her Majesty’s Stationery Office (HMSO) There has been no remuneration to the Chair, as no was not re-branded the Office of Public Sector Information appeals have been submitted to the PAAC. Any appeals (OPSI) and continues to exist and fulfil its core activities, received would be administered by staff from existing including responsibility for the publication of legislation tribunals. The Department has incurred no direct costs. and the management of Crown copyright operating from within The National Archives. In 2005, OPSI was Prison Accommodation created as a result of implementing the Re-Use of Public Sector Information Regulations 2005 (S.I. 2005 Clare Short: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice No. 1515). The decision to create OPSI was taken by the what the (a) operating costs and (b) figures for (i) Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster as the Minister funding, (ii) operational capacity and (iii) certified responsible for the Cabinet Office. Activities relating to nominal accommodation were for each prison in these regulations are undertaken under the OPSI name. 2008-09; and what the average (A) cost of a prisoner OPSI merged with The National Archives in 2006. The place and (B) prison population was in 2008-09. National Archives is an executive agency of the Ministry [303926] of Justice, for which I have responsibility. Her Majesty was consulted on these changes when they took place. Maria Eagle: The net establishment level operating Pathogens Access Appeals Commission costs and figures for funding, operational capacity and certified normal accommodation for each public sector Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice prison in 2008-09 are shown in the following tables. (1) what remuneration the chair of the Pathogens The average establishment level direct cost of a prisoner Access Appeals Commission receives.; [304314] place in 2008-09 was £30,328. 453W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 454W

The average prison population in 2008-09 was 82,830. Private prisons are operated through contracts between The cost figures provided are net resource expenditure the contractors and NOMS, as a result operating costs met and recorded locally against each prison. They do are included in the table but not budgets. not include net expenditure met at regional or national Expenditure met by other Government Departments level against central budgets. (e.g. education and health) is not included in the figures.

Male category B (a) (b) (i) (b) (ii) (b) (iii) Average baseline - Operating costs (direct Operational capacity certified normal Establishment name net expenditure) (£) Budget (£) (March 2009) accommodation

Garth 21,065,174 21,006,413 847 812 Gartree 17,507,598 16,484,342 677 668 Grendon (HMP Grendon and Springhill) 15,398,101 15,402,169 527 587 Kingston 6,169,756 6,247,580 175 199 Total 60,140,630 59,140,504 2,226 2,266

Male category C (a) (b) (i) (b) (ii) (b) (iii) Average baseline - Operating costs (direct Operational capacity certified normal Establishment name net expenditure) (£) Budget (£) (March 2009) accommodation

Acklington 18,908,339 18,668,389 946 937 Ashwell 12,097,063 12,157,863 619 572 Blundeston 13,142,989 12,904,076 526 476 Buckley Hall 9,687,783 9,488,840 381 350 Bullwood Hall 6,973,684 6,784,529 228 180 Canterbury 7,680,457 7,477,045 314 195 Channings Wood 15,775,812 15,817,456 729 698 Coldingley 13,818,439 14,607,214 513 423 Dartmoor 16,797,358 16,667,080 650 628 Edmunds Hill 9,719,171 9,687,665 371 371 Erlestoke 10,925,527 10,861,982 470 470 Everthorpe 13,079,909 13,322,337 689 603 Featherstone 14,409,441 14,718,810 687 663 Guys Marsh 11,809,841 11,826,814 578 520 Haverigg 14,382,081 14,284,808 644 622 Highpoint 17,360,461 17,301,312 930 825 Kennet 12,769,566 13,115,719 342 175 Lancaster (Castle) 7,625,232 7,560,170 243 159 Lindholme 21,081,944 21,209,483 1,134 1,044 Littlehey 12,796,232 12,879,501 726 663 Maidstone 11,811,858 11,703,085 482 558 Moorland 20,891,766 20,665,221 1,045 1,000 Mount 16,847,802 16,317,311 768 747 Onley 16,932,913 17,468,121 652 641 Ranby 22,003,871 21,814,741 1,080 971 Risley 22,664,946 22,614,473 1,093 1,050 Shepton Mallet 6,277,500 6,152,807 189 165 Stafford 15,152,719 15,130,034 741 708 Stocken 16,526,261 17,268,796 816 778 Usk\Prescoed 8,808,016 8,753,878 434 318 Verne 12,214,669 12,212,782 607 562 Wayland 17,602,049 18,553,691 1017 935 Wealstun 16,654,128 17,415,952 527 885 Wellingborough 13,864,232 13,821,822 646 638 Whatton 18,694,212 19,164,040 841 779 Wymott 24,114,563 23,480,121 1144 1,047 Total 521,902,835 523,877,967 23802 22,356

Male dispersal (a) (b) (i) (b) (ii) (b) (iii) Average baseline - Operating costs (direct Operational capacity certified normal Establishment name net expenditure) (£) Budget (£) (March 2009) accommodation

Frankland 38,946,823 39,105,000 750 733 Full Sutton 29,654,714 29,762,000 604 600 455W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 456W

Male dispersal (a) (b) (i) (b) (ii) (b) (iii) Average baseline - Operating costs (direct Operational capacity certified normal Establishment name net expenditure) (£) Budget (£) (March 2009) accommodation

Long Lartin 25,988,266 25,983,000 473 504 Wakefield 29,369,107 29,458,222 751 748 Whitemoor 31,369,667 31,450,000 458 492 Total 155,328,578 155,758,222 3036 3,077

Female closed (a) (b) (i) (b) (ii) (b) (iii) Average baseline - Operating costs (direct Operational capacity certified normal Establishment name net expenditure) (£) Budget (£) (March 2009) accommodation

Downview 10,440,260 10,340,475 359 358 Foston Hall 9,848,350 10,107,192 272 283 Send 9,168,516 8,799,419 278 282 Total 29,457,126 29,247,086 909 923

Female local (a) (b) (i) (b) (ii) (b) (iii) Average baseline - Operating costs (direct Operational capacity certified normal Establishment name net expenditure) (£) Budget (£) (March 2009) accommodation

Eastwood Park 10,566,776 10,703,923 362 326 Holloway 21,349,208 21,111,168 500 534 Low Newton 11,933,285 11,782,584 336 315 New Hall 16,411,720 15,913,154 447 393 Styal 15,150,734 15,067,676 458 450 Total 75,411,724 74,578,505 2103 2,017

Female open (a) (b) (i) (b) (ii) (b) (iii) Average baseline - Operating costs (direct Operational capacity certified normal Establishment name net expenditure) (£) Budget (£) (March 2009) accommodation

Askham Grange 3,638,796 3,589,049 128 151 East Sutton Park 2,695,471 2,818,326 100 98 Total 6,334,267 6,407,375 228 249

Male closed YOI (a) (b) (i) (b) (ii) (b) (iii) Average baseline - Operating costs (direct Operational capacity certified normal Establishment name net expenditure) (£) Budget (£) (March 2009) accommodation

Aylesbury 13,428,584 13,416,361 444 437 Brinsford 16,818,021 16,968,908 569 535 Castington 14,884,903 14,811,622 410 400 Deerbolt 15,429,274 15,164,655 503 513 Feltham 33,072,667 33,053,260 762 762 Glen Parva 18,797,660 19,250,626 808 668 Hindley 18,819,544 18,252,763 515 599 Lancaster Farms 17,380,346 17,669,213 520 480 Northallerton 5,842,196 5,801,451 252 149 Portland 16,248,939 16,158,483 624 599 Reading 9,426,097 9,449,702 297 190 Rochester 14,827,179 16,914,868 642 540 Stoke Heath 17,942,798 18,227,867 678 634 Swinfen Hall 15,257,174 15,109,517 624 604 Total 228,175,383 230,249,296 7648 7,110

Male YOI juvenile (a) (b) (i) (b) (ii) (b) (iii) Average baseline - Operating costs (direct Operational capacity certified normal Establishment name net expenditure) (£) Budget (£) (March 2009) accommodation

Cookham Wood 7,915,362 8,148,139 126 144 Huntercombe 13,266,059 13,589,589 365 360 457W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 458W

Male YOI juvenile (a) (b) (i) (b) (ii) (b) (iii) Average baseline - Operating costs (direct Operational capacity certified normal Establishment name net expenditure) (£) Budget (£) (March 2009) accommodation

Warren Hill 9,800,684 9,764,911 222 222 Werrington 7,001,534 6,937,673 162 160 Wetherby 14,564,398 14,731,623 408 384 Total 52,548,037 53,171,935 1283 1,270

Male local (a) (b) (i) (b) (ii) (b) (iii) Average baseline - Operating costs (direct Operational capacity certified normal Establishment name net expenditure) (£) Budget (£) (March 2009) accommodation

Bedford 11,922,584 11,698,353 506 324 Belmarsh 42,162,623 40,974,600 910 800 Birmingham 30,484,199 30,418,795 1450 1,112 Bristol 15,666,886 15,645,330 614 424 Brixton 20,343,607 20,279,580 798 606 Bullingdon 22,483,226 23,880,927 1114 827 Cardiff 16,724,714 17,066,766 824 535 Chelmsford 17,503,321 17,218,998 695 554 Dorchester 7,728,747 7,741,860 259 145 Durham 23,107,960 22,927,406 985 594 Exeter 12,926,888 12,902,640 533 316 Gloucester 9,113,564 9,228,846 321 225 High Down 25,742,808 26,825,437 1103 999 Holme House 21,027,018 20,835,530 994 857 Hull 22,182,372 21,847,024 998 723 Leeds 24,176,491 22,926,751 1154 823 Leicester 9,591,913 9,611,560 392 210 Lewes 17,790,440 17,089,136 723 620 Lincoln 15,645,532 15,600,616 738 448 Liverpool 26,853,605 26,950,862 1445 1,186 Manchester 34,296,488 34,403,000 1269 948 Norwich 15,828,794 15,904,139 557 500 Nottingham 15,664,059 15,452,062 550 409 Pentonville 27,441,799 27,065,673 1152 913 Preston 19,271,549 18,956,226 842 451 Shrewsbury 8,775,263 8,544,336 332 185 Swansea 9,845,978 9,819,915 402 248 Wandsworth 34,966,394 34,863,354 1644 1,086 Winchester 14,955,540 14,728,462 706 428 Woodhill 31,951,935 31,969,000 819 717 Wormwood Scrubs 28,197,614 28,014,606 1277 1,177 Total 634,373,911 631,391,789 26106 19,390

Male open (a) (b) (i) (b) (ii) (b) (iii) Average baseline - Operating costs (direct Operational capacity certified normal Establishment name net expenditure) (£) Budget (£) (March 2009) accommodation

Ford 8,705,446 8,610,909 557 557 Hollesley Bay 7,044,053 6,773,086 345 345 Kirkham 13,885,548 13,662,707 590 590 Leyhill 10,422,190 10,221,595 512 512 North Sea Camp 6,429,962 6,166,578 318 318 Sudbury 9,030,115 8,875,751 581 579 Total 55,517,315 54,310,626 2903 2,901

Male open YOI (a) (b) (i) (b) (ii) (b) (iii) Average baseline - Operating costs (direct Operational capacity certified normal Establishment name net expenditure) (£) Budget (£) (March 2009) accommodation

Thorn Cross 8,983,400 9,085,793 322 322 Total 8,983,400 9,085,793 322 322 459W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 460W

Semi open (a) (b) (i) (b) (ii) (b) (iii) Average baseline - Operating costs (direct Operational capacity certified normal Establishment name net expenditure) (£) Budget (£) (March 2009) accommodation

Blantyre House 3,612,391 3,065,681 122 122 Dover 7,665,832 7,440,315 316 316 Drake Hall 8,357,364 8,312,326 315 315 Haslar 3,649,674 3,697,981 160 160 Kirklevington 5,582,764 5,626,366 283 274 Latchmere House 4,753,809 4,730,387 207 207 Morton Hall 8,732,022 8,723,535 392 392 Total 42,353,857 41,596,592 1795 1,786

Cluster (3) (a) (b) (i) (b) (ii) (b) (iii) Average baseline - Operating costs (direct Operational certified normal Establishment name net expenditure) (£) Budget (£) capacity(march 2009) accommodation

Hewell Grange (Brockhill and Blakenhurst) 29,234,190 29,179,539 1431 1,177 Sheppey Cluster 44,942,798 47,695,373 2257 2,018 Isle of Wight 40,123,299 38,753,354 1659 1,543 Total 114,300,287 115,628,266 5347 4,737

Totals 1,984,827,348 1,984,443,956 77,708 68,404

Private (a) (b) (i) (b) (ii) (b) (iii) Average baseline - Operating costs (direct Operational capacity certified normal Establishment name net expenditure) (£) Budget (£) (March 2009) accommodation

Altcourse 46,755,009 0 1,324 794 Ashfield 23,065,309 0 400 407 Bronzefield 26,017,488 0 465 450 Doncaster 29,159,167 0 1146 771 Dovegate 27,863,070 0 860 800 Forest Bank 28,521,810 0 1161 800 Lowdham Grange 20,612,263 0 690 640 Parc 44,929,152 0 1,200 838 Peterborough 32,410,756 0 1,008 840 Rye Hill 18,656,797 0 664 600 The Wolds 11,912,975 0 395 320 Private Prisons Sub-Total 309,903,796 0 9313 7,260

Grand Total 2,294,731,144 1,984,443,956 87,021 75,664 Notes: 1. Displayed figures are subject to rounding. 2. Establishments are categorised in these tables by their main role as at the end of 2008-09 for all periods reported. Establishments that have more than one role have been placed in the category that represents the primary or dominant function of the prison. For this reason, performance of prisons within a category cannot necessarily be compared on a like for like basis. 3. YOI refers to Young Offender Institutions. 4. Data for Elmley, Standford Hill and Swaleside, is reported under the Sheppey cluster. Similarly data for Blakenhurst, Brockhill and Hewell Grange is reported together as a cluster. (as Hewell Grange) Data for Parkhurst, Camphill and Albany is now reported under the Isle of Wight cluster. 5. Cookham Wood changed from a Female closed prison to a Male juvenile prison in October 2007. Data for 2008-09 is now shown under the category Male Juvenile. 6. Dover and Haslar are Immigration Detention Centres (IDC) operating under Detention Centre Rules 2001. Lindholme includes Lindholme IDC. It is a split site, part Category C Training Prison and part Immigration Detention Centre. 7. The following expenditure is not included: a one-off impairment charge of £496 million following revaluation of land and buildings; Operation Safeguard (use of Police Cells); cost of capital on assets in the course of construction, expenditure at HMPS Bure as it had not yet opened.

Prisoners: Training Maria Eagle: In 2008-09 an average of 13.36 hours per prisoner per week were spent on employment-related activities. Paul Holmes: To ask the Secretary of State for It is not possible to provide figures for the percentage Justice what percentage of the prison population of the population that takes part in employment-related undertakes employment-related activities; whether he activities. This is because the regimes monitoring database has made a recent estimate of the annual average records activities in hours and does not allow those number of hours spent by prisoners on such activities; activities to be broken down by individual prisoner. and what recent assessment he has made of the merits Increasing offender employment rates is critical to of such activities. [305409] our strategy to increase social inclusion and reduce 461W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 462W reoffending. A key aim is to provide prisoners with Prisons: North West employment skills, experience and motivation so they become productive members of society. A survey from 2008 of prisoners’ own perception of need1 found that Andrew Stunell: To ask the Secretary of State for most said they needed help with finding employment Justice what the full-time equivalent staffing level at (48 per cent.), getting qualifications (42 per cent.) and each prison establishment in the North West was in work-related skills (41 per cent.) ahead of other help or each of the last five years. [304692] interventions such as finding accommodation (37 per cent.), offending behaviour (34 per cent.) and drug Maria Eagle: Information on the full-time equivalent problems (29 per cent.). staff in post in each Prison Service establishment in the 1 Source: North West since 2005 is contained in the following MOJ Research Series 16/08: ‘The problems and needs of newly table. The information relates to both public sector and sentenced prisoners: results from a national survey’ contracted establishments.

Full time equivalent staffing at north west prison establishments 2005 to 2009 As at 31 March: Establishment 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 30 September 2009

Altcourse 499 527 548 587 568 558 Buckley Hall 238 215 213 215 215 208 Forest Bank1 350 393 405 418 470 547 Garth 406 435 497 527 519 496 Haverigg 310 319 319 323 319 316 Hindley 424 406 419 411 451 431 Kennet2 — — 33 300 291 285 Kirkham 261 262 248 237 232 230 Lancaster 168 163 177 181 174 169 Lancaster Farms 418 394 405 416 407 389 Liverpool 679 704 680 658 624 622 Manchester 796 836 826 830 865 859 Preston 417 422 452 450 465 449 Risley 496 491 482 495 492 479 Styal 363 361 371 324 323 330 Thorn Cross 212 215 215 210 199 196 Wymott 512 505 501 538 539 527 Total 6,548 6,648 6,789 7,119 7,153 7,091 1 Figures are on headcount rather than full-time equivalent basis. 2 HMP Kennet opened in 2007. Note: The information relating to public sector establishments has been derived from the Personnel Corporate Database and Oracle HRMS. These are subject to the normal levels of inaccuracy expected of any large-scale reporting system. Information concerning the two contracted prisons in the North West—Altcourse and Forest Bank—has been provided by the individual contractors.

Probation: South East Maria Eagle: Over the five year period, the number of qualified probation officers1, 2 has increased by Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for 7.3 per cent. nationally, with numbers in the south-east Justice how many Probation Service staff there were in increasing by 7.9 per cent. The total number of staff in each probation area in the South East in each of the each probation area in the south-east region is shown in last five years; and what the ratio of offenders to such the table, together with the ratio to offenders. staff was in each such year. [304282]

Ratio of offenders to probation staff in the south-east 20043 20053 20063 20073 20084

Hampshire Staff in post5 520 584 603 610 613 Ratio—offenders:staff6 10.5:1 10.1:1 10.3:1 10.6:1 10.9:1

Kent Staff in post5 457 476 506 489 448 Ratio—offenders:staff6 10.1:1 9.8:1 11.0:1 12.1:1 13.5:1

Surrey Staff in post5 246 264 265 285 288 Ratio—offenders:staff6 7.0:1 6.8:1 7.6:1 7.5:1 7.2:1

Sussex Staff in post5 364 403 428 397 403 Ratio—offenders:staff6 13.2:1 11.2:1 11.7:1 14.6:1 13.7:1

Thames Valley Staff in post5 612 623 650 640 668 463W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 464W

Ratio of offenders to probation staff in the south-east 20043 20053 20063 20073 20084

Ratio—offenders:staff6 8.8:1 9.4:1 10.3:1 10.7:1 10.5:1 1 Includes; senior probation officers, senior practitioners, probation officers and practice development assessors. 2 Figures for 2008 are taken from the HR Data Warehouse and are correct at publication. Probation areas/trusts have the ability to resubmit historical dataintothe HR Data Warehouse and this may result in occasional variations in subsequent reports. 3 Figures as at 31 December 4 Figures as at September 2008; the latest date for which there are corresponding staffing and offender figures. 5 Includes all staff employed within the area. 6 Calculated against all staff employed within the area.

Rape: Domestic Violence Claire Ward: The information requested is not available. It is not possible to identify offences involving domestic Margaret Moran: To ask the Secretary of State for violence using the department’s extract from the police Justice in how many cases of (a) rape, (b) attempted national computer, which is the source of data on rape and (c) domestic violence cautions have been previous offences; domestic violence offences cannot be distinguished from other violent offences. issued in each of the last three years. [304455] Remand in Custody: Ashford Claire Ward: Information showing the number of offenders cautioned for offences of rape and attempted rape in England and Wales, from 2005 to 2007 (latest Damian Green: To ask the Secretary of State for available) can be viewed in the table. Justice how many people in Ashford constituency who have been remanded in custody in each year since 2005 Data for 2008 are planned for publication at the end were not convicted of the offences in respect of which of January 2010. they were remanded in custody; and how many days in The Ministry of Justice cannot separately identify total such people spent on remand in each such year. domestic violence offences from other offences of assault [304921] and violence against the person. The Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) advise that domestic violence cases have Claire Ward: Information collected centrally by the to be referred by the police to a prosecutor for a Ministry of Justice on the number of persons remanded charging decision in accordance with the Director’s in custody is not available below Criminal Justice System Guidance on Charging. A report of domestic violence area level. to the police is unlikely to have been the first incident, and for that reason cautions should be rarely administered Transsexuality in these cases. If there is sufficient evidence of an offence, the public interest will usually mean that the Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice decision is taken to prosecute the case in the courts. what the salary is of each person who sits on the The number of domestic violence prosecutions Gender Recognition Panel. [304311] undertaken by the CPS has increased from 34,839 in 2004-05 to 67,094 in 2008-9. The proportion of successful Mr. Straw: Legal members of the Gender Recognition cases has also risen from 55 per cent. in March 2005 to Panel (GRP), including the President and Deputy President 71.9 per cent. in September 2009. are salaried First-tier Tribunal Judges within the Social The number of offenders cautioned1,2 for rape and attempted rape, England and Entitlement Chamber. In addition, one medical member Wales, 2005 to 20073,4 of the GRP is a member of the First-tier Tribunal Offence within the Social Entitlement Chamber. None of these description 2005 2006 2007 office holders receives additional remuneration on account Rape 20 19 32 of their responsibilities in connection with the GRP. Attempted 252Fee paid medical members of the GRP are remunerated rape at the rate of £371 per day. Total222434Full details of judicial salaries and fees can be found 1 The cautions statistics relate to persons for whom these offences were the on the Ministry of Justice website at principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been cautioned for two or more offences at the same time the principal offence is the www.justice.gov.uk/publications/judicial-fees-salaries.htm more serious offence. 2 From 1 June 2000 the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 came into force nationally Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice and removed the use of cautions for persons under 18 and replaced them with reprimands and warnings. These figures have been included in the totals. how many people worked for the Gender Recognition 3 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and Panel in each of the last three years. [304312] complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable Mr. Straw: The number of people who have worked limitations are taken into account when those data are used. for the Gender Recognition Panel for each of the last (Data given includes rape/attempted rape of male and female. Source: three years is shown in the following table. From May Justice Statistics Analytical Services - Ministry of Justice 2007 the staff also provide support to a number of tribunals. Margaret Moran: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many of those convicted for offences Period Number of staff related to domestic violence had been issued with at 2006 least one caution prior to conviction in the last three January-February 5 years. [304476] 465W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 466W

(3) what recent discussions he has had with the Chief Period Number of staff Medical Officer on restrictions on the price of alcohol. March-September 4 [304211] October-December 3 Gillian Merron: In December 2008, the Department

2007 published an independent review on the effects of alcohol pricing and promotion from the School of Health and January-April 3 Related Research at the University of Sheffield. This May-December 2 included looking at the effects of minimum unit price on consumption 2008 2 A copy of the publication “Independent review of the effects of alcohol pricing and promotion from the 2009 2 School of Health and Related Research at the University of Sheffield” has already been placed in the Library. Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice The Government recently completed a public how much the Gender Recognition Panel cost in each consultation on the content of a new mandatory code of the last three years. [304313] of practice for alcohol retailers. The consultation includes proposals to tackle irresponsible promotions in the Mr. Straw: The full cost for the Gender Recognition on-trade and in the off-trade explores the principle of Panel for the last three financial years is shown in the prohibiting retailers from offering alcohol for sale at following table. prices below the rate of duty and VAT paid on the product, a form of loss leader. Cost (£) In the consultation, the Department also committed 2006-07 216,480 to do further work on the impact of alcohol price and 2007-08 173,109 promotions and in particular look into certain key 2008-091 121,293 evidence gaps. 1 2008-09. The administrative element of the cost for this year is not on a similar All responses will be independently analysed and a basis due to a change in accounting procedures. This component is now report of the consultation and the Government’s response recorded within the overall administrative cost of the Leicestershire Administrative will follow in due course. Support Centre, where the Gender Recognition Panel is based. This accounts for a reduction of £14,364 between costs in 2007-08 and 2008-09. The chief medical officer regularly meets with Ministers Young Offenders: Location from the Department on a number of policy issues, including alcohol. Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for Arthritis: Health Services Justice how many young people are in the process of being relocated from Young Offenders’ Institution Sandra Gidley: To ask the Secretary of State for Brinsford; how many of them will be transferred to an Health what steps his Department is taking, with reference institution further away from their home; and if he will to the report by the National Audit Office on Services make a statement. [304653] for People with Rheumatoid Arthritis, to work with primary care trusts to promote early treatment of and Maria Eagle: On 3 December 2009, there were employment-focused support for people with inflammatory 26 sentenced young people at HMYOI Brinsford. The arthritis. [304419] YouthJustice Board has developed individual placement plans for each of these young people, in order to minimise Ann Keen: The Department has published a good any disruption to their sentence plans and to ensure practice commissioning pathway for inflammatory arthritis that they are placed in the most suitable alternative which supports clinicians in identifying cases of rheumatoid accommodation. Of the 23 young people for whom the arthritis and ensuring that they are set on the right YJB has a valid permanent home address, 22 will be pathway of care. This describes key symptoms, for further from home as a result of the planned transfers. example where patients should be referred for urgent treatment. On 3 December 2009, there were also 34 young people on remand at Brinsford. If sentenced, they will General practitioners can also use the Map of Medicine be placed in an alternative establishment. to determine the best possible treatment options for their patients, including information on the various patterns of onset, diagnostic tests and medical treatment of rheumatoid arthritis.1 HEALTH The Government response to Dame Carol Black’s review of the health of the working age population Alcoholic Drinks: Prices “Working for a Healthier Tomorrow” introduced a number of policy initiatives aimed at supporting people Mr. Touhig: To ask the Secretary of State for Health with health conditions to stay in, return to or move in to (1) what recent steps his Department has taken to seek work. to reduce the availability of cheap alcoholic drinks; For example, Pathways to Work and Condition [304209] Management Programme are designed to meet the needs (2) what research his Department has undertaken on of the three most common causes of long-term sickness: the likely effects on the level of alcohol consumption of mental health, musculoskeletal and cardio respiratory a minimum unit price for alcohol in the last 10 years; conditions. Individuals who have inflammatory arthritis [304210] and are claiming benefits can volunteer to participate. 467W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 468W

The Fit for Work Service Pilots will integrate with Cost (£)1 existing health and employment-related structures and services, such as Jobcentre Plus and relevant local 2001-02 10,475,238 partnerships, to join up appropriate support for sickness 2002-03 10,745,007 absentees. This will include health-related services such 2003-04 11,127,532 as physiotherapy but will also extend to wider support 2004-05 11,341,616 such as employment, skills, housing and debt advice. As 2005-06 11,780,854 musculoskeletal disorders are one of the most common 2006-07 12,523,837 causes of sickness absence, appropriate support for 2007-08 213,967,051 these will be an integral part of the Fit for Work Service 2008-09 214,453,533 pilots and those with inflammatory arthritis will receive 1 Figures given relate solely to expenditure by the National Blood appropriate and timely treatment. Service (part of NHS Blood and Transplant). The promotion of 1 The Map of Medicine is a map of best available research blood donation in South Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland is the evidence and a best evidence clinical guideline. It displays this responsibility of the separate UK blood services which operate in knowledge in an easy-to-use pathways format, reflecting the those areas. 2 patient journey and provides a framework for creating local Figures for 2007-08 and 2008-09 reflect the cost of promoting both pathways. blood and organ donation. In October 2005, the National Blood Service and UK Transplant merged to become one special health authority, NHS Blood and Transplant (NHSBT). Accounting systems Blood: Donors were subsequently amalgamated, and the cost of promoting blood donation is no longer recorded separately. Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how much his Department has spent on advertising to how many and what proportion of people were on the encourage people to donate blood in each of the last 10 (a) blood donor and (b) bone marrow donor register years. [304099] in each register area in each of the last 10 years. [304103] Gillian Merron: The following table shows funds spent Gillian Merron: The following table shows the total on marketing activities to attract blood donors in England number of blood donors recorded in June of the last and North Wales between 2001-02 (the earliest date for eight calendar years, broken down by region into the which complete data are available as before then figures north (incorporating North Wales); south-east; and were not collated centrally) and 2008-09. Costs given south-west; and the percentage of blood donors as a include media advertising; direct marketing; external proportion of the total population of England. 2001 is marketing services; campaign events; donor awards; the earliest year for which complete data are available, promotional items; and public relations activities. as before then data was not collated centrally.

Number of blood donors Blood donors— Total blood Population percentage of North South West South East donors (million, England) population

2001 677,554 517,873 619,911 1,815,338 49.1 3.7 2002 665,724 509,497 614,398 1,789,619 49.7 3.6 2003 602,121 492,519 588,549 1,683,189 49.9 3.4 2004 581,113 472,720 553,801 1,607,634 50.1 3.2 2005 584,661 474,457 537,951 1,597,069 50.5 3.2 2006 541,098 440,019 499,681 1,480,798 50.8 2.9 2007 511,800 418,225 462,059 1,392,084 51.1 2.7 2008 514,983 430,107 466,807 1,411,897 51.5 2.7 2009 512,031 448,647 449,028 1,409,706 51.7 2.7

The corresponding figures for people on the bone National health service hospitals and community health services: marrow registry is not currently collated centrally.However Senior managers in the Wigan and Bolton Heath Authority and the the NHS Blood and Transplant is currently in the Bolton Primary Care Trust (PCT) process of migrating these data to a central system and Senior manager headcount a copy of these figures will be placed in the Library. Wigan and Bolton Health 8 Bolton Primary Care Trust: Managers Authority as at 30 September 2001 Mr. Crausby: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Bolton PCT as at 30 September 11 how many senior managers were employed in the Wigan 2008 and Bolton Health Authority in the final year of its operation; and how many were employed by Bolton Note: The Bolton PCT was formed in 2002, bringing together elements of Primary Care Trust at the latest date for which figures the former Wigan and Bolton Health Authority, the three Bolton are available. [304449] Primary Care Groups, and the Community Healthcare Bolton NHS Trust. Ann Keen: The information requested is shown in the Source: following table: The NHS Information Centre for health and social care 469W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 470W

Bone Marrow Disorders: Donors Cord Blood

Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what recent steps he has taken to increase the number how many and what proportion of the umbilical cords of blood donors who are bone marrow donors; and if of babies born alive in each of the last 10 years were he will make a statement. [304102] donated for the harvesting of stem cells. [304100] Gillian Merron: The National Blood Service (part of NHS Blood and Transplant) currently recruits bone Gillian Merron: The total amount of units of umbilical marrow donors from the existing pool of blood donors cord blood processed and stored in the NHS Cord and therefore efforts to promote bone marrow donation Blood Bank (the Bank) for the last 10 years are: are focused through existing channels of communication with donors. Information on bone marrow donation is Units banked per annum available at blood collection sessions, and staff actively 1997 862 promote bone marrow donation particularly to blood 1998 880 donors from black and minority ethnic communities. 1999 894 2000 820 Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what recent discussions he has had with the devolved 2001 562 administrations on increasing the number of bone 2002 470 2003 597 marrow donors. [304104] 2004 860 Gillian Merron: NHS Blood and Transplant, as the 2005 1,076 special health authority with responsibility for ensuring 2006 1,117 the supply of blood, organs, stem cells and tissues for 2007 1,342 patients holds regular meetings with its counterparts 2008 1,664 from across the UK where all issues on donation and 2009 year to date 1,712 collection are discussed. Total 12,856 My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has not held any meetings with the devolved administrations on A report commissioned by the Department entitled increasing the number of bone marrow donors. ‘Cord Blood Banking in the UK: An International Comparison of Policy and Practice’ estimated that, in Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health 2007, the Bank collection rate represented about 0.13 how many and what proportion of patients who per cent, of annual total births in the United Kingdom. received bone marrow and stem cell treatments in the last 12 months were administered cells from (a) UK Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health donors and (b) foreign donors from each country. how many stem cell donations from the NHS Cord [304105] Blood Bank were provided to patients in each year since 1996. [304106] Gillian Merron: This information is not collected. Gillian Merron: The number of cord blood units Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health issued by the NHS Cord Blood Bank for transplant into what his most recent estimate is of the unit cost of patients each year since 1998 are: identifying the tissue type of a bone marrow or stem cell donor by samples taken from (a) a blood donor at Issued the time of donation and (b) aDNAswab. [304185] 1998 3 Gillian Merron: NHS Blood and Transplant use the 1999 14 following cost estimates for extracting Deoxyribonucleic 2000 18 Acid (DNA) from blood samples and buccal swabs: 2001 10 (a) Blood samples: £203.97 for 48 test kits fully automated 2002 10 (b) Buccal swab: £117.60 for 50 test kits manual 2003 10 One test kit is used for each donor. 2004 19 Because the kits for buccal swabs are not fully automated, 2005 27 there will be additional costs as the process requires 2006 34 more staff time. 2007 44 2008 47 Coeliac Disease 2009 (to date) 43 Total 279 Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what recent estimate he has made of the Dangerous Dogs: Merseyside number of people living with coeliac disease in England; what the evidential basis is for that estimate; and if he will make a statement. [304248] Dr. Pugh: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many patients have been admitted to hospital after Ann Keen: We have made no estimate of the number being attacked by dogs in (a) Southport constituency of people living with coeliac disease. and (b) Merseyside in the last five years. [304117] 471W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 472W

Ann Keen: The information requested is shown in the following tables:

A count of finished admission episodes in Southport in which the cause of admission was being bitten or struck by a dog, 2004-05 to 2008-09 Primary care trust (PCT) of residence 2008-09 2007-08 2006-07

Sefton PCT 38 24 43

Residence PCT description 2005-06 2004-05

Total 35 37 Southport and Formby PCT 715 South Sefton PCT 28 22

A count of finished admission episodes in Merseyside in which the cause of admission was being bitten or struck by a dog, 2004-05 to 2008-09 PCT of residence 2008-09 2007-08 2006-07

Total 275 238 287 Halton and St. Helens PCT 63 52 65 Knowsley PCT 43 38 47 Liverpool PCT 97 89 110 Sefton PCT 38 24 43 Wirral PCT 34 35 22

PCT of residence 2005-06 2004-05

Total 272 224 Bebington and West Wirral PCT 7* Birkenhead and Wallasey PCT 16 * Central Liverpool PCT 74 54 Halton PCT 16 12 Knowsley PCT 25 36 North Liverpool PCT 36 27 South Liverpool PCT 19 15 Southport and Formby PCT 715 South Sefton PCT 28 22 St. Helens PCT 44 29 Notes: 1. Activity in English national health service hospitals and English NHS commissioned activity in the independent sector. 2. A finished admission episode is the first period of inpatient care under one consultant within one healthcare provider. Finished admission episodes are counted against the year in which the admission episode finishes. However, admissions do not represent the number of inpatients, as a person may have more than one admission within the year. 3. In Hospital Episodes Statistics (HES) data cannot be filtered using Merseyside or Southport constituencies as the PQ requests; consequently data is provided using PCTs of residences that approximate to required areas. Merseyside is made-up of the following PCTs: Wirral PCT, Sefton PCT, Halton and St. Helens PCT, Liverpool and Knowsley PCT (or their equivalents in 2005-06 and 2004-05). Southport falls under Sefton PCT of Residence (or its equivalent in 2005-06 and 2004-05). Owing to the fact that in July 2006, the NHS reorganised PCTs in England from 303 PCTs into 152, data from 2006-07 onwards are not directly comparable with previous years. Data for the years 2005-06 and 2004-05 have been presented using the equivalent PCTs to the ones listed above. These are as follows: Sefton PCT = (Southport and Formby PCT, South Sefton PCT), Wirral PCT = (Birkenhead and Wallasey PCT, Bebington and West Wirral PCT), Liverpool PCT = (North Liverpool PCT, Central Liverpool PCT, South Liverpool PCT) and, Halton and St. Helens PCT = (St. Helens PCT, Halton PCT). 4. To protect patient confidentiality, figures between 1 and 5 have been suppressed and replaced with “*” (an asterisk). Where it was possible to identify numbers from the total due to a single suppressed number in a row or column, an additional number (the next smallest) has been suppressed. 5. HES are compiled from data sent by over 300 NHS trusts and PCTs in England. Data are also received from a number of independent sector organisations for activity commissioned by the English NHS. The Information Centre for health and social care liaises closely with these organisations to encourage submission of complete and valid data and seeks to minimise inaccuracies and the effect of missing and invalid data via HES processes. While this brings about improvement over time, some shortcomings remain. 6. HES figures are available from 1989-90 onwards. The quality and coverage of the data have improved over time. These improvements in information submitted by the NHS have been particularly marked in the earlier years and need to be borne in mind when analysing time series. Some of the increase in figures for later years (particularly 2006-07 onwards) may be due to the improvement in the coverage of independent sector activity. Changes in NHS practice also need to be borne in mind when analysing time series. For example, a number of procedures may now be undertaken in outpatient settings and may no longer be accounted for in the HESdata. This may account for any reductions in activity over time. Source: HES; Outpatients, The Information Centre for health and social care.

Departmental Internet This figure has been calculated in line with Central Office of Information guidance: TG128 Measuring website costs. The forecast cost for maintaining the Department’s Mr. Heald: To ask the Secretary of State for Health website in 2009-10 is expected to be in line with the what the cost was of maintaining his Department’s reported total figure for 2008-09. website in the 2008-09 financial year; and what the forecast cost is of maintaining websites within his A forecast figure for all websites within the Department’s responsibility in the 2009-10 financial year. [302418] responsibility has not been provided, as this would include 71 remaining websites that we are converging or Phil Hope: The total cost of maintaining the rationalising under Transformational Government. This Department’s website in 2008-09 was £2,840,326.59. would incur disproportionate costs. 473W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 474W

Departmental Legislation The criminal offences which have been created since 1 May 2008 are as follows: Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for Offences in Part 1 of the Health and Social Care Act Health what criminal offences have been (a) abolished 2008: and (b) created by primary legislation sponsored by his Section 10(1) - any person who carries on a regulated activity Department since 1 May 2008. [303252] without being registered with the Care Quality Commission is guilty of an offence; Phil Hope: The criminal offences which have been Section 33 - offence of failure, without reasonable excuse, to abolished since 1 May 2008 are as follows: comply with conditions of registration with the Care Quality Commission; Offences under the Care Standards Act 2000 (insofar as those offences related to the Commission for Social Care Inspection Section 34 - offences relating to the carrying on or management (CSCI) or the Healthcare Commission—both bodies abolished) of regulated activities while registration with the Care Quality have been (or will be) repealed by the Health and Social Care Act Commission is suspended or where such registration has been 2008:- cancelled; Section 11 - carrying on or managing an establishment or Section 35 - regulation-making power to create offences for agency without being registered; contravention of or failure to comply with regulations; Section 24 - failure to comply with conditions of registration Section 36 - offence of false description of concerns, premises - without reasonable excuse; any person who with intent to deceive gives any concern or premises a name or in any other way describes a premises so as Section 25 - power to create an offence in regulation for to indicate that the carrying on of the concern is a regulated contravention of or failure to comply with regulations; activity or that the premises are used for the carrying on of a Section 26 - offences relating to false descriptions of establishments regulated activity is guilty of an offence unless the person is and agencies; registered in respect of the regulated activity in question and Section 27 - false statement in applications; that registration is not suspended; Section 28 - offence relating to failure to display certificate of Section 37 - offence relation to making knowingly false statements registration; in applications to the Care Quality Commission; Section 30 - provision is made for what happens if one of the Section 63(7) - offence relating to the obstructing of or failing offences is committed by a body corporate - if the offence is to comply with entry and inspection by the Care Quality proved to have been committed by, or with the consent or Commission (without reasonable excuse); connivance of, or to be attributable to any neglect on the part Section 64(4) - offence relating to failure to comply with Care of any director, manager or secretary of the body corporate, or Quality Commission request for documents or information any person who was purporting to act in any such capacity, (without reasonable excuse); that director, manager, secretary or person purporting to act as such (as well as the body corporate) is guilty of the offence and Section 65(4) - offence relating to failure to comply with a liable to be proceeded against and punished accordingly; request for an explanation from the Care Quality Commission (without reasonable excuse); Section 31(9) - offence relating to the obstructing of Section 76(2) - offence of disclosure of confidential personal or failing to comply with entry and inspection by the information held by the Care Quality Commission; CSCI or Healthcare Commission. Under section 91 of the Act provision is made for what Offences under the Health and Social Care (Community Health happens if one of the offences is committed by a body corporate—if and Standards) Act 2003 have been (or will be) repealed by the the offence is proved to have been committed by, or with the Health and Social Care Act 2008 (due to abolition of Healthcare consent or connivance of, or to be attributable to any neglect on Commission and CSCI): the part of any director, manager or secretary of the body Section 67(5)and 89(5) - offence relating to the obstructing of corporate, or any person who was purporting to act in any such or failing to comply with entry and inspection by the Healthcare capacity, that director, manager, secretary or person purporting Commission or CSCI; to act as such (as well as the body corporate) is guilty of the offence and liable to be proceeded against and punished accordingly. Section 68(4) and 90(4) - offence relating to failure to comply with a Healthcare Commission request for documents or ″Regulated activities″ (i.e. the definitions of what they are) are information or CSCI; set out in regulations. Section 69(3)or 91(3) - offence relating to failure to comply Section 4A(1) of the Human Fertilisation and with a request for an explanation from the Healthcare Commission Embryology Act 2008 prohibits the placing in a woman or CSCI; of a human admixed embryo. Section 4A(2) (read with Section 136 - offence of disclosure of confidential personal section 41) also makes it an offence to mix human information held by the Healthcare Commission; gametes with animal gametes or to create, keep or use a Section 146—provision is made for what happens if one of the human admixed embryo without a licence. offences is committed by a body corporate—if the offence is proved to have been committed by, or with the consent or Section 21 of the Health Act 2009 introduced new connivance of, or to be attributable to any neglect on the part offences in relation to tobacco by inserting new provisions of any director, manager or secretary of the body corporate, or into the Tobacco Advertising and Promotion Act 2002:- any person who was purporting to act in any such capacity, New section 7A of that Act makes it an offence for a person in that director, manager, secretary or person purporting to act as the course of a business to display tobacco products or cause such (as well as the body corporate) is guilty of the offence and tobacco products to be displayed, in a place in England, Wales liable to be proceeded against and punished accordingly. and Northern Ireland; However, many of those repealed under the Health New section 7B provides for exclusions from and defences to and Social Care Act 2008 are to be re-enacted (broadly this offence; re-enacted) in regulations under the provision referred New section 7C makes it an offence for a person to display or to in Part 1 of the Health and Social Care Act 2008, cause to be displayed the prices of tobacco products in breach which will come into force at the same time that the of a requirement contained in regulations made under this repeal comes in to effect. section (such regulations can impose requirements in relation 475W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 476W

to the display in a place in England or Wales or Northern Drugs: Misuse Ireland in the course of business of the prices of tobacco products); Mike Wood: To ask the Secretary of State for Health New section 7D makes it an offence for a person who displays what research his Department has (a) commissioned or causes to be displayed tobacco prices or their prices in and (b) evaluated on trends relating to the (i) age, (ii) breach of a requirement contained in regulations made under this section (such regulations can impose requirements in sex, (iii) ethnicity and (iv) sexual orientation of (A) relation to the display in England or Wales or Northern crack cocaine users, (B) heroin users and (C) problem Ireland in the course of a business of tobacco products or their drug users in the last 10 years; and if he will make a prices on a website where tobacco products are offered for statement. [305406] sale). Section 22 of the Health Act 2009 also introduced a Gillian Merron: The Government places great importance new section 3A into the Children and Young Persons on the collection of trend data on drug use, and funds a (Protection from Tobacco) Act 1991 allowing the number of strands of activity.The National Drug Treatment appropriate national authority to make provision by Monitoring System which is maintained and developed regulations prohibiting the sale of tobacco from an by the National Treatment Agency for Substance Misuse’s automatic machine in England and Wales; these regulations collects information about the impact of drug treatment must make provision as to the persons who are liable in on a range of groups of service users. The Home Office the case of any breach of a prohibition, and where a collects information annually through the British Crime prohibition is breached any person liable inn accordance Survey and has also commissioned national and regional with the regulations is guilty of an offence. estimates of the prevalence of opiate use and crack cocaine use. The Office of National Statistics publishes Section 23 makes similar provision in relation to annual information about trends in drugs deaths. The Northern Ireland by adding a new article 4A into the Department of Health funds additional work by St. Children and YoungPersons (Protection from Tobacco) George’s University of London through the national (Northern Ireland) Order 1991. programme on substance abuse deaths which provides Section 20 amended section 6 of the Tobacco Advertising additional information on trends in drugs deaths. and Promotion Act which automatically excluded specialist Copies of the relevant reports can be found in the tobacconists from committing an offence under section Library. 2 of that Act; under the amendments this exclusion will only apply in England, Wales and Northern Ireland if Drugs: Rehabilitation the tobacco advertisement complies with requirements, including those to be established in regulations. Mike Wood: To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will estimate the cost to the public purse of placing every (a) crack cocaine and (b) heroin user Departmental Written Questions receiving NHS treatment in a residential treatment programme. [305407]

John Mason: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Gillian Merron: Residential treatment is one of a how many questions tabled for answer on a named day number of treatment modalities for drug misuse. Before his Department received in each of the last 12 months; a drug user receives national health service care in a and to how many such questions his Department residential drug treatment service, care planning needs provided a substantive answer on the day named. to be undertaken between the service user and their [305380] clinicians to assess whether it will help the user to change their behaviour and if so, the nature and duration Phil Hope: The information is in the following table. of the treatment that will be needed. They will also consider the care that will be needed following residential Number of Number treatment. Without such assessments it is not possible named day answered on to estimate the cost of placing all problem drug users in questions for the day residential treatment. answer specified Percentage EU Law 2008 December 53 50 94.3 Gregory Barker: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what (a) statutory instruments and (b) other 2009 regulations his Department has brought forward in the January 71 66 93.0 2005 Parliament to meet obligations arising from EU February 101 93 92.1 law. [304177] March 111 102 91.9 April 74 72 97.3 Phil Hope: Central records of statutory instruments May 48 46 95.8 made under specific powers have only been maintained June 103 98 95.1 by the Statutory Instruments Registrar since 2001. A July 91 78 85.7 record has been maintained since that time of statutory September 76 76 100.0 instruments made under powers in the European October 60 56 93.3 Communities Act 1972 in order to meet obligations November 92 87 94.6 arising from European Union law, but no record has been maintained of statutory instruments made under Total 880 824 93.6 other legislation in order to meet such obligations. 477W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 478W

There are no central records maintained of “other Hospital and Community Health Services female medical consultants, regulations”. Since 2001 the Department has made 139 England as at 30 September each year statutory instruments in order to meet obligations arising Female consultants within from EU Law, under powers contained in the European medical specialties Communities Act 1972. A list of those instruments has 1997 4,351 been placed in the Library. 1998 4,658 It would incur disproportionate cost to retrieve details 1999 5,002 of all such instruments since 1997. 2000 5,418 2001 5,911 2002 6,406 Exercise 2003 7,010 2004 7,657 Mr. Hoyle: To ask the Secretary of State for Health 2005 8,170 what recent estimate has been made of the percentage 2006 8,715 of (a) men and (b) women aged (i) 18 to 25, (ii) 26 to 2007 9,131 49, (iii) 50 to 69 and (iv) over 70 years old who 2008 9,769 undertake recommended levels of physical activity; and Source: if he will make a statement. [304220] The NHS Information Centre for health and social care Medical and Dental Workforce Census.

Gillian Merron: Health Survey for England last measured Health Services: Greater London the percentage of men and women meeting the Chief Medical Officer’s recommendations on physical activity, broken down by age and gender in 2008, which will be Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for published on 17 December 2009. Prior to this report Health what plans he has for the future provision of from 2006 survey has set out similar data and a copy of accident and emergency services in London North the report/data has already been placed in the Library. central. [305191]

Mr. Mike O’Brien: This is a matter for the local Fibromyalgia national health service.

John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for (1) what steps his Department is taking to increase Health what estimate he has made of spending on knowledge of fibromyalgia amongst (a) the medical acute services by his Department in London North profession and (b) the wider public; [304296] central in the next five years. [305192] (2) how many people have been diagnosed with fibromyalgia in the last three years; [304297] Mr. Mike O’Brien: Decisions on spending allocations for individual services are a matter for the local national (3) what help his Department provides to people health service. Revenue allocations to primary care diagnosed with fibromyalgia. [304298] trusts (PCTs) for 2009-10 and 2010-11 were announced on 8 December 2008. PCTs received an average increase Ann Keen: The number of people diagnosed with of 5.5 per cent. in 2009-10 and will receive an average fibromyalgia is not collected. increase of 5.5 per cent. 2010-11, a total increase in Detailed advice on fibromyalgia, suitable for the medical funding of £8.6 billion. profession and the wider public, has been made available on the NHS Choices and NHS Evidence websites at: Health Services: Inspections www.nhs.uk/conditions/fibromyalgia/Pages/Introduction.aspx www.evidence.nhs.uk/search.aspx?t=fibromyalgia Mark Simmonds: To ask the Secretary of State for Although there is no cure for fibromyalgia patients Health how much (a) the Care Quality Commission are able to access treatments to ease their symptoms and (b) its predecessor organisations have spent on and improve the quality of life. Medications available inspection visits in each year since 1997-98. [304755] include painkillers, muscle relaxants, and antidepressants. Mr. Mike O’Brien: The Care Quality Commission tell us that it does not hold the information in the Health Professions: Equal Opportunities format requested. The accounts of the Commission for Social Care Mr. Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Inspection, National Commission for Social Care, for Health what recent progress has been made on Commission for Healthcare Audit and Inspection and increasing the level of access of women to senior the Commission for Health Improvement did not provide positions in the medical profession. [305004] specific costs relating to inspections.

Ann Keen: The NHS Workforce Census shows that Mark Simmonds: To ask the Secretary of State for the number of women consultants working in the national Health how many inspectors the Care Quality health service has increased from around 4,000 in 1997 Commission employs; and how many inspectors its to almost 10,000 in 2008. The numbers are shown in the predecessor organisations employed in each year since following table: 1997-98. [304768] 479W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 480W

Mr. Mike O’Brien: The Care Quality Commission has provided the following information.

Number for inspectors employed each year by the health and social care regulators since2002-03 National Commission for Commission for Social Care Social Care Inspection Healthcare Commission Care Quality Commission

2002-03 1,027 — — — 2003-04 1,472 — — — 2004-05 — 1,397 — — 2005-06 — 1,317 137 — 2006-07 — 1,254 164 — 2007-08 — 960 130 — 2008-09 — 828 123 — 2009-10 — — — 1913 1 The figure for 2009-10 also includes assessors.

The decrease in 2007-08 is because a number of (2) what recent assessment he has made of the inspectors were transferred to Ofsted in that year, as effectiveness of each hand hygiene initiative undertaken responsibility for the inspection of child-care services in hospitals; [304183] was transferred. (3) how much his Department spent to increase The Care Quality Commission is unable to provide levels of compliance with hand hygiene procedures in figures earlier than 2002-03 for social care inspectors. hospitals in the last 12 months. [304184] Prior to that date local authorities carried out the inspection of social care. Ann Keen: Hand hygiene is only one part of our The Commission does not hold figures earlier than comprehensive strategy to reduce health care associated 2005-06 for health care inspectors. infections, and the evidence base shows that it prevents infections. All acute trusts signed up to the National Heart Diseases: Health Services Patient Safety Agency’s ‘cleanyourhands’ campaign and independent evaluation of this campaign suggests a Mark Simmonds: To ask the Secretary of State for strong association with a reduction in infections. We do Health what steps his Department plans to take in not specifically fund or assess individual hospital campaigns response to the National Specialist Commissioning and mortality rates have not been specifically investigated. Group’s document for designation of Grown-Ups with Congenital Heart Disease Specialist Centres; and if he Hospitals: Infectious Diseases will make a statement. [304418] Ann Keen: Designation of specialised services such as Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health services for Grown Ups with Congenital Heart Disease what recent assessment he has made of the likely effects is a formal process of checking that service providers on the rapidity of the spread of hospital-acquired meet certain standards and that services are able to infections of (a) the use of disposable blood pressure meet demand and to deliver the best possible outcomes cuffs, (b) the practice of infusing hospital equipment for patients and are good value for money. The service with silver ion particles and (c) banning hospital staff specification standards included in the Grown Up with from wearing neckties. [304146] Congenital Heart Disease designation document have been drawn up to assist this process by providing a Ann Keen: Devices such as silver alloy coated catheters common set of criteria against which services can be aim to prevent infections rather than reduce transmission. assessed. It is the responsibility of the 10 Specialised Although specific information on the effect of blood Commissioning Groups in England working on behalf pressure cuffs and neckties on transmissions is not of their constituent primary care trusts to decide on the available, they will be expected to contribute if part of a relative priority of work on the specialised services systematic approach to infection control. However, within their designation programmes. manufacturers of new devices are able to submit their products to the Rapid Review Panel for evaluation. Hospitals: Admissions Hospitals: Manpower Mark Simmonds: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what guidance his Department has issued to Andrew Stunell: To ask the Secretary of State for NHS organisations on the length of stay of patients in Health how many full-time equivalent (a) managers (a) medical and (b) surgical admission units. [304703] and (b) senior managers were in post at each hospital in the North West in each of the last five years. Mr. Mike O’Brien: None. [304680] Hospitals: Hygiene Ann Keen: The information is not available in the Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health format requested. Non-medical workforce census data (1) what recent assessment he has made of the effects of is collected by trust, so hospital level data is not available. poor hand hygiene on (a) infection and (b) mortality The information that is available is shown in the following rates in hospitals; [304101] tables: 481W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 482W

National Health Service Hospital and Community Health Services: Senior Managers and Managers in the North West Strategic Health Authority (SHA) areaby organisation as at 30 September: Each year (as full time equivalents) 2004 2005 2006 All Senior All Senior All Senior managers managers Managers managers managers Managers managers managers Managers

North West 4,358 1,709 2,649 4,522 1,527 2,995 4,345 1,514 2,831 SHA area Five Boroughs 75 54 21 78 58 21 81 21 60 Partnership National Health Service Trust Aintree 71 36 35 76 17 58 81 17 64 Hospitals NHS Trust Ashton, Leigh 58 19 39 53 33 20 52 33 20 and Wigan Primary Care Trust (PCT) Blackburn 24 10 15 24 10 15 30 12 18 with Darwen PCT Blackpool 31 4 27 39 5 34 19 5 14 PCT Blackpool, 100 46 54 97 39 58 94 36 58 Fylde and Wyre Hospitals NHS Trust Bolton 50 10 40 55 19 36 48 21 27 Hospitals NHS Trust Bolton PCT 64 48 16 60 8 53 62 7 55 Bolton, 72 42 30 69 46 23 70 49 21 Salford and Trafford Mental Health NHS Trust Bury PCT 30 30 0 35 35 0 45 41 4 Calderstones 34277331716291614 NHS Trust Central and 74 34 41 104 56 48 92 20 72 Eastern Cheshire PCT Central 118 38 80 110 29 81 94 30 64 Lancashire PCT Central 68 25 43 74 27 47 80 28 52 Manchester and Manchester Children’s University Hospitals NHS Trust Cheshire and 41 13 28 41 9 32 37 10 27 Wirral Partnership NHS Trust Christie 53 45 8 16 3 13 16 3 13 Hospital NHS Trust Clatterbridge 23 19 4 26 20 6 13 11 2 Centre for Oncology NHS Trust Countess of 72 23 49 78 19 60 72 26 46 Chester Hospital NHS Foundation Trust Cumbria PCT 144 52 92 88 21 67 73 17 56 East Cheshire 28 19 9 51 9 42 53 8 45 NHS Trust East 98 58 40 100 62 37 99 62 37 Lancashire Hospitals NHS Trust 483W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 484W

National Health Service Hospital and Community Health Services: Senior Managers and Managers in the North West Strategic Health Authority (SHA) areaby organisation as at 30 September: Each year (as full time equivalents) 2004 2005 2006 All Senior All Senior All Senior managers managers Managers managers managers Managers managers managers Managers

East 42 21 21 43 23 20 51 22 29 Lancashire PCT Halton and St 70 24 45 63 24 40 69 28 41 Helens PCT Heywood, 38 27 11 44 14 30 40 20 20 Middleton and Rochdale PCT Knowsley 29 4 25 39 7 32 43 4 40 PCT Lancashire 55 48 7 46 3 43 75 25 50 Care NHS Trust Lancashire 109 12 96 126 7 119 122 8 114 Teaching Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust Liverpool 155 64 91 201 74 127 191 57 133 PCT Liverpool 24 8 16 18 3 15 32 18 14 Women’s NHS Foundation Trust Manchester 52 37 15 57 41 16 55 40 15 Mental Health and Social Care Trust Manchester 149 17 133 216 25 192 196 70 126 PCT Mersey Care 121 19 102 99 46 53 84 39 46 NHS Trust Morecambe 123 70 53 132 78 54 117 57 60 Bay Hospitals NHS Trust North 87 6 81 77 4 73 72 4 69 Cheshire Hospitals NHS Trust North 52 14 38 61 24 37 63 29 34 Cumbria Acute Hospitals NHS Trust North 25 15 10 25 12 13 28 13 15 Cumbria Mental Health and Learning Disabilities NHS Trust North 62 13 49 48 9 39 69 14 55 Lancashire PCT North West 135 41 94 200 72 128 240 90 150 Ambulance Service NHS Trust North West 230 56 174 243 52 191 185 52 133 SHA Oldham PCT 32 5 27 36 5 31 34 5 29 Pennine Acute 120 34 86 125 32 93 131 31 100 Hospitals NHS Trust Pennine Care 42 15 27 45 13 33 48 15 34 NHS Trust Royal 119 39 80 128 44 84 136 65 71 Liverpool and Broadgreen University Hospitals NHS Trust 485W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 486W

National Health Service Hospital and Community Health Services: Senior Managers and Managers in the North West Strategic Health Authority (SHA) areaby organisation as at 30 September: Each year (as full time equivalents) 2004 2005 2006 All Senior All Senior All Senior managers managers Managers managers managers Managers managers managers Managers

Royal 52 20 32 58 24 34 53 20 33 Liverpool Children’s’ Hospital NHS Trust Salford PCT 111 27 84 127 21 106 109 20 89 Salford Royal 79 32 47 54 24 30 56 22 34 Hospitals NHS Trust Sefton PCT 61 28 33 94 10 84 26 9 17 South 59 17 42 64 20 44 56 9 47 Manchester University Hospitals NHS Trust Southport and 26 8 18 25 8 17 23 13 10 Ormskirk Hospital NHS Trust St. Helens and 43 24 19 50 24 26 51 20 31 Knowsley Hospitals NHS Trust Stockport 57 19 38 61 20 40 58 19 38 NHS Trust Stockport 55 38 17 30 5 25 38 8 30 PCT Tameside and 42 7 35 41 7 34 24 7 17 Glossop Acute Services NHS Trust Tameside and 60 25 36 68 28 40 58 22 35 Glossop PCT The 28 28 0 20 6 15 27 8 19 Cardiothoracic Centre - Liverpool NHS Trust The Mid 51 30 21 50 30 20 43 25 17 Cheshire Hospital NHS Trust The Wirral 48 24 24 48 24 24 49 25 24 Hospital NHS Trust Trafford 43 15 28 34 12 23 30 9 21 Healthcare NHS Trust Trafford PCT 50 8 42 47 9 38 61 10 51 Walton Centre 36 20 16 33 14 19 35 19 16 for Neurology and Neurosurgery NHS Trust Warrington 36 24 12 40 23 17 36 11 25 PCT West Cheshire 62 24 39 67 25 42 49 17 32 PCT Wirral PCT 86 25 61 65 14 51 71 13 58 Wrightington, 73 28 45 64 27 36 71 30 42 Wigan and Leigh NHS Trust

2007 2008 All managers Senior managers Managers All managers Senior managers Managers

North West SHA area 4,596 1,598 2,998 5,164 1,793 3,371 Five Boroughs Partnership 72 23 49 70 22 47 National Health Service Trust Aintree Hospitals NHS Trust 84 19 65 96 27 69 Ashton, Leigh and Wigan 65 36 30 94 66 28 Primary Care Trust (PCT) Blackburn with Darwen PCT 92 11 81 103 14 89 487W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 488W

2007 2008 All managers Senior managers Managers All managers Senior managers Managers

Blackpool PCT 27 7 20 35 5 30 Blackpool, Fylde and Wyre 94 29 66 90 9 81 Hospitals NHS Trust Bolton Hospitals NHS Trust 44 6 38 48 11 37 Bolton PCT 55 7 48 61 11 50 Bolton, Salford and Trafford 86 48 37 94 52 41 Mental Health NHS Trust Bury PCT 52 45 7 73 61 11 Calderstones NHS Trust 32 18 14 32 17 15 Central and Eastern Cheshire 75 19 56 92 18 74 PCT Central Lancashire PCT 153 40 113 160 45 115 Central Manchester and 90 29 61 240 58 181 Manchester Children’s University Hospitals NHS Trust Cheshire and Wirral Partnership 33 12 21 37 13 24 NHS Trust Christie Hospital NHS Trust 69 20 50 22 5 17 Clatterbridge Centre for 11 9 2 34 17 17 Oncology NHS Trust Countess of Chester Hospital 66 21 44 65 19 46 NHS Foundation Trust Cumbria PCT 73 29 44 83 48 35 East Cheshire NHS Trust 49 9 40 47 8 40 East Lancashire Hospitals NHS 103 44 59 100 56 44 Trust East Lancashire PCT 89 37 52 37 21 17 Halton and St Helens PCT 36 12 24 47 20 28 Heywood, Middleton and 44737782157 Rochdale PCT Knowsley PCT 47 6 41 51 18 33 Lancashire Care NHS Trust 80 36 43 87 38 50 Lancashire Teaching Hospitals 78 14 64 86 18 68 NHS Foundation Trust Liverpool PCT 193 40 152 235 77 158 Liverpool Women’s NHS 34 19 15 33 16 17 Foundation Trust Manchester Mental Health and 42 41 1 46 40 5 Social Care Trust Manchester PCT 161 36 124 180 46 134 Mersey Care NHS Trust 63 32 31 70 33 37 Morecambe Bay Hospitals NHS 115 35 80 113 30 83 Trust North Cheshire Hospitals NHS 74 10 64 73 10 63 Trust North Cumbria Acute Hospitals 88 42 45 93 46 47 NHS Trust North Cumbria Mental Health 31 19 12 35 23 11 and Learning Disabilities NHS Trust North Lancashire PCT 62 9 53 83 4 79 North West Ambulance Service 230 75 155 221 74 146 NHS Trust North West SHA 154 106 48 178 98 80 Oldham PCT 33 5 28 42 18 24 Pennine Acute Hospitals NHS 123 34 89 130 26 104 Trust Pennine Care NHS Trust 48 13 35 48 12 JO Royal Liverpool and Broadgreen 215 87 128 217 94 123 University Hospitals NHS Trust Royal Liverpool Children’s 54 22 32 56 21 35 Hospital NHS Trust Salford PCT 112 22 90 127 25 102 Salford Royal Hospitals NHS 60 21 39 61 19 42 Trust Sefton PCT 26 7 19 25 8 17 South Manchester University 67 18 49 74 18 56 Hospitals NHS Trust Southport and Ormskirk 20 11 9 25 7 IS Hospital NHS Trust 489W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 490W

2007 2008 All managers Senior managers Managers All managers Senior managers Managers

St. Helens and Knowsley 54 21 33 53 23 30 Hospitals NHS Trust Stockport NHS Trust 65 21 44 75 20 54 Stockport PCT 50 18 32 51 30 20 Tameside and Glossop Acute 51 15 36 52 17 35 Services NHS Trust Tameside and Glossop PCT 70 37 34 89 32 57 The Cardiothoracic Centre - 24 15 8 30 16 14 Liverpool NHS Trust The Mid Cheshire Hospital NHS 69 34 36 71 31 40 Trust The Wirral Hospital NHS Trust 51 27 24 65 35 30 Trafford Healthcare NHS Trust 28 9 19 45 23 22 Trafford PCT 48 13 35 72 16 56 Walton Centre for Neurology 30 18 11 28 14 13 and Neurosurgery NHS Trust Warrington PCT 34 5 29 45 7 38 West Cheshire PCT 49 24 26 61 22 39 Wirral PCT 90 8 82 119 18 101 Wrightington, Wigan and Leigh 79 37 43 84 26 58 NHS Trust Notes: 1. PCTs, SHAs and ambulance trusts have been mapped to their current organisational structure. 2. Full time equivalent figures are rounded to the nearest whole number. Source: The Information Centre for health and social care.

Hospitals: South East Influenza: Stockport

Mrs. Gillan: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many redundancies there were in each hospital Mark Hunter: To ask the Secretary of State for trust in the South East in each of the last 12 months. Health how many (a) hospitalisations and (b) deaths [304107] in the Stockport Primary Care Trust area related to (i) swine influenza and (ii) seasonal influenza there Gillian Merron: Monthly redundancy figures for were in the 12 months to 1 December 2009. [304123] individual trusts are not held centrally. Quarterly compulsory redundancy figures for individual strategic Gillian Merron: The swine flu hospital data collected health authorities (SHAs) are held centrally. The figures by the Department is not broken down by primary care for the two SHAs in the South East region for the last trust (PCT). It is collated for acute trusts rather than four quarters are as follows: PCT areas so precise figures for Stockport PCT are not available. Number The data collected shows that Stockport NHS Total for quarter 2 2009-10 Foundation Trust has reported 108 patients were admitted South Central (SC) SHA 9 with H1N1 swine flu (swabbed or clinically presumed) South East Coast (SEC) SHA 7 between 6 July and 1 December 2009. Data on hospital Total 16 admissions related to swine flu was not collected prior to 6 July. The above figures include all patients reported Totals for quarter 1 2009-10 by the hospital regardless of where they are resident, so may include non-Stockport residents. The figure will SCSHA 18 not include any residents of the Stockport PCT area SEC SHA 23 who have been admitted to other hospitals with swine Total 41 flu. The Department can not release a breakdown of Totals for quarter 4 2008-09 swine flu related deaths in individual PCTs as to do so SCSHA 23 could breach the confidentiality of patients and their SEC SHA 20 relatives. Details of these deaths were supplied in strict Total 43 confidence. The Department does not collect data on seasonal flu Totals for quarter 3 2008-09 hospitalisations and deaths. SCSHA 13 SEC SHA 1 Mark Hunter: To ask the Secretary of State for Total 14 Health what estimate his Department has made of the From 2009-10 foundation trust data is no longer number of people in the Stockport Primary Care Trust centrally collected. In previous years their returns were area to whom it plans to offer the seasonal influenza voluntary. vaccination. [304124] 491W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 492W

Gillian Merron: Estimates suggest that there are about National health service hospital and community health services: Qualified midwives in the maternity services area of work in the North West Strategic 85,000 people in Stockport Primary Care Trust area Health Authority (SHA) area by organisation as at 30 September each year (as that fall within the groups eligible to receive the seasonal full-time equivalents) influenza vaccine. 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008

Frontline health care workers involved in direct patient Bury PCT 0 0000 care can also receive the seasonal influenza vaccine. Central and Eastern Cheshire 00111 There are an estimated 4,000 people who fall into this PCT category working in Stockport national health service Central Manchester and 183 199 220 264 262 trusts. Manchester Children’s University Hospitals NHS Legislation Trust Countess of Chester Hospital 106 103 100 93 95 NHS Foundation Trust Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State Cumbria and Lancashire SHA 1 1000 for Health how many pieces of primary legislation East Cheshire NHS Trust 70 71 63 66 61 sponsored by his Department have not had commencement East Lancashire Hospitals 245 254 248 229 212 clauses since 1997. [304848] NHS Trust East Lancashire PCT 0 0111 Phil Hope: All pieces of primary legislation sponsored Halton and St. Helens PCT 0 0 27 24 25 by the Department since 1997 include a commencement HaltonPCT 2826000 provision. Heywood, Middleton and 00111 Rochdale PCT Medical Treatments Lancashire Teaching Hospitals 143 148 150 146 167 NHS Foundation Trust Liverpool Women’s NHS 277 281 278 267 268 Norman Lamb: To ask the Secretary of State for Foundation Trust Health whether NHS trusts will be the preferred Manchester PCT 0 0011 provider under the proposed patient entitlement to Mersey Care NHS Trust 3 0000 treatment if a patient cannot be seen within the Morecambe Bay Hospitals 306 129 136 132 123 relevant period and desires an alternative provider. NHS Trust [304264] North Cheshire Hospitals NHS 100 104 101 104 104 Trust Ann Keen: Under the proposed new patient right, if North Cumbria Acute 127 119 117 121 116 access to the relevant service is inappropriately delayed, Hospitals NHS Trust North West Strategic Health 00100 the national health service would be required to take all Authority reasonable steps to offer that patient a range of alternative Pennine Acute Hospitals NHS 335 326 346 346 333 providers which would be able to provide the service Trust sooner than the original provider, if this is what the Rochdale PCT 0 1000 patient wants. Where possible, the range of alternative Salford Royal Hospitals NHS 98 98 100 98 104 providers should include NHS providers and private Trust providers which meet NHS standards and the NHS South Manchester University 103 113 115 120 120 Hospitals NHS Trust tariff. Southport and Ormskirk 93 99 93 90 96 The patient would have a choice between their original Hospital NHS Trust provider or one of the range of alternatives. St. Helens and Knowsley 108 104 106 104 107 Hospitals NHS Trust Midwives: Manpower Stockport NHS Trust 131 138 145 143 141 Tameside and Glossop Acute 112 104 107 111 103 Andrew Stunell: To ask the Secretary of State for Services NHS Trust The Mid Cheshire Hospital 97 96 100 106 108 Health how many full-time equivalent midwives were in NHS Trust post at each hospital in the North West providing The Wirral Hospital NHS 148 154 166 153 74 maternity services in each of the last five years. Trust [304668] Trafford Healthcare NHS Trust 62 58 65 62 63 West Cheshire PCT 0 0001 Ann Keen: The information is not available in the Wrightington, Wigan and 109 98 105 103 108 format requested. Non-medical work force census data Leigh NHS Trust are collected by trust, so hospital level data are not Note: Full time equivalent figures are rounded to the nearest whole number. available. The information that is available is shown in Source: the following table: The NHS information Centre for health and social care National health service hospital and community health services: Qualified midwives in the maternity services area of work in the North West Strategic Health Authority (SHA) area by organisation as at 30 September each year (as NHS: Data Protection full-time equivalents) 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State North West SHA area 3,242 3,085 3,130 3,103 3,016 for Health what breaches of data protection legislation Blackpool, Fylde and Wyre 103 105 91 85 92 have been recorded in the NHS in each of the last five Hospitals NHS Trust years; and how many formal undertakings from the Bolton Hospitals NHS Trust 153 156 149 132 131 Information Commissioner have been signed by NHS Burnley, Pendle and 11000 Rossendale Primary Care Trust organisations consequent on a breach of the (PCT) legislation. [304243] 493W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 494W

Mr. Mike O’Brien: National health service organisations progress against all of the criteria and we are currently are directly responsible for compliance with the Data reviewing all of the outcomes in order to decide the best Protection Act 1998. NHS organisations should also way forward. publish serious data loss incidents in their annual reports and notify their strategic health authority (SHA). In Mr. Bacon: To ask the Secretary of State for Health turn, SHAs should publish quarterly data losses regarding how many open issues are logged against the Lorenzo its NHS organisations on their websites. software system. [303848] It is for the Information Commissioner and the courts Mr. Mike O’Brien: As at 1 December 2009, the to determine whether or not data protection legislation number of open issues logged against the Lorenzo has been breached in any particular case. Details of software system by live national health service trusts formal undertakings are published on the Information was 453. Commissioner’s website. Many of the open issues are of low business impact, NHS: DHL and there is a rolling schedule to resolve them in line with trusts’ priorities. Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State NHSU for Health what mechanisms are being used to monitor the performance of DHL under its contract for NHS Sandra Gidley: To ask the Secretary of State for supply and delivery of medical supplies and Health what recent assessment has been made of the equipment; and if he will make a statement. [304253] performance of the NHS University against its objectives. [304421] Mr. Mike O’Brien: The Department signed a 10-year Ann Keen: A review was commissioned from Sir Master Services Agreement with DHL on 4 September William Wells. This reported in 2004 and is available on 2006 for the provision of procurement and supply chain the Department’s website at: services, trading under the name of NHS Supply Chain. www.dh.gov.uk/en/FreedomOfInformation/ Schedule 23 of the Master Services Agreement sets Freedomofinformationpublicationschemefeedback/ out the Key Performance Indicators and post-transition FOIreleases/DH_073921 Key Performance Indicators. The post-transition phase A copy has been placed in the Library. began in August 2007. A copy of Schedule 23 of the Master Services Agreement Sandra Gidley: To ask the Secretary of State for has been placed in the Library. Health how much the NHS University has cost in each year since its establishment. [304422] NHS: Finance Ann Keen: The NHS University (NHSU) was launched Mr. David Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State in December 2003. for Health what the budget is of each NHS trust and The budget for NHSU was £27 million in 2003-04, NHS foundation trust hospital in England for 2009-10. and £43.676 million in 2004-05. [304892] NHSU was officially dissolved on 31 July 2005.

Mr. Mike O’Brien: The forecast turnover for the Patient Choice Schemes 2009-10 financial year of every NHS trust in England is published in the most recent edition of The Quarter, Norman Lamb: To ask the Secretary of State for which can be found on the Department’s website: Health if he will place in the Library a copy of the www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Publications/ extended choice network rules. [304110] PublicationsStatistics/DH_087335 Information on NHS foundation trust plans for the Mr. Mike O’Brien: A copy of the Extended Choice 2009-10 financial year can be found on the website of Network Rules has been placed in the Library. Monitor, the independent regulator of NHS foundation trusts at: Pharmacy www.monitor-nhsft.gov.uk/home/our-publications/browse- category/reports-nhs-foundation-trusts/reviews-nhs- Sandra Gidley: To ask the Secretary of State for foundation-trusts-an-4 Health how many pharmacies in each primary care trust area have (a) opened and (b) closed in each of NHS: Information and Communications Technology the last five years. [304498]

Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State Mr. Mike O’Brien: The information available on national for Health whether his Department has decided whether health service community pharmacies in England has BT and CSC have met the criteria published by Connecting been placed in the Library. for Health on 29 October 2009 for delivery of IT solutions to the NHS through the National Programme Social Services for IT. [304240] Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State Mr. Mike O’Brien: The Department set an end of for Health with reference to paragraph 4.7 of the November deadline for achieving significant progress, Impact Assessment for the Personal Care at Home Bill, in terms of implementing information systems which for what reasons (a) chiropody and (b) podiatry are support electronic records for patients, against published exempted from services included within the definition criteria for success. It will take some time to judge of personal care. [304786] 495W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 496W

Phil Hope: The definition of personal care is based and average predicted need, the assumption has been on the draft regulations being made under sections 8 made that the relationship is linear, i.e. that twice the and 20 of the Health and Social Care Act 2008, which predicted need score on this measure is equivalent to exclude chiropody and podiatry. These services are within twice the weekly care costs. the scope of health care services, rather than personal care. Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State for Health with reference to the Impact Assessment for Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State the Personal Care at Home Bill; whether reablement for Health with reference to table 2 of the Impact packages will cover the costs of (a) hardware and (b) Assessment for the Personal Care at Home Bill, what labour. [304807] methodology was used to calculate the additional costs; and whether the figures given for additional costs Phil Hope: We understand that there is a great deal of relate to millions of pounds. [304794] variability in both the costs of reablement across councils Phil Hope: The estimated additional costs for older and the different types of services which may be available people are based on analyses from the Personal Social in particular localities. In our consultation, “Personal Services Research Unit’s (PSSRU) micro-simulation model Care at Home: a consultation on proposals for regulations for older people. The PSSRU cost estimates are broken and guidance”, a copy of which has already been placed down into groups of individuals with difficulty with in the Library, we suggest that a reablement package different total numbers of activities of daily living (ADLs) could include physiotherapy, occupational therapy, on the basis of the average predicted need for each installation of telecare or adaptations to the house. The group—as referred to in table 1 of the impact assessment. £1,000 per person figure referred to is based on an The additional categories not considered by PSSRU— estimate of 30 hours of care at £30 an hour and an that is, the estimates of residential care and informal allowance for some equipment. The precise nature of care switchers—are then added. All of the residential any package would be a matter for local decision, based care switchers are assumed to have difficulty with four on an assessment of the person’s needs. or more ADLs. Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State for Health with reference to paragraph 1.6 of the for Health with reference to table 2 of the Impact Impact Assessment for the Personal Care at Home Bill, Assessment for the Personal Care at Home Bill, from in what circumstances the Government provides social what source he derived the number of younger adults care where private insurance cover has proved described as (a) already receiving state-funded care inadequate. [304808] and (b) self-funding plus unmet need. [304795] Phil Hope: Councils currently assess needs and means Phil Hope: The estimate of 110,000 younger adults in reaching decisions on whether or not to provide state eligible for free personal care at home is based principally funded social care. For people with high needs who are on the referrals, assessments and packages of care (RAP) not eligible on the grounds of means, the lack of a data from councils for 2007-08. In the absence of data private insurance market has meant they may have on the proportion of younger service users whose needs already incurred significant costs in meeting their own are assessed as critical under fair access to care services care needs. As part of plans for a national care service, (FACS) critical, for the purposes of the impact assessment, we have been considering a number of proposals which it is assumed that there could be some 100,000 younger include insurance schemes, so that people with high adult local authority funded users receiving personal care needs will not find themselves faced with unexpected care in the critical category. It is likely that most of care costs. these receive their care free, as their incomes are generally low. It has therefore been assumed that 90 per cent. Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State already receive free personal care at home and that for Health with reference to paragraph 2.2 of the 10 per cent. make a means-tested contribution towards Impact Assessment for the Personal Care at Home Bill, the cost. what estimate he has made of the amount of funding Little is known about the number of younger adults referred to. [304809] who currently fund their own care at home. It has been assumed that around a further 10,000 younger adults Phil Hope: No estimate has been made on future may be brought under state funding following the investment in social care. However, we know that, in introduction of the Personal Care at Home Bill. order to ensure that a new care and support system is The figures have been rounded to the nearest 10,000 affordable, we will need to be prepared to take tough to reflect the uncertainty. The figure of 110,000 should decisions to ensure that existing resources are targeted therefore be treated as an estimate. on those who need them the most. But we know that the money already in the system will not be enough. Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State for Health with reference to table 2 of the Impact In 20 years’ time, we expect there to be 1.7 million Assessment for the Personal Care at Home Bill, from more adults needing care and support than there are what source the costs referred to in bullet 4 of Annex A now and proportionately fewer people of working age were derived. [304797] to help pay for the funding of that care and support. We will not be able to pay for the care that is needed simply Phil Hope: Annex A sets out the assumptions on by reprioritising the money we already have. As a society, which the analysis is based. Bullet 4 explains that, in the we are going to have to spend more on care and support absence of data giving the relationship between costs if we are to maintain a care and support system that 497W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 498W gives older people and disabled people quality of life, Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State dignity and peace of mind about their future care costs. for Health what estimate he has made of the average lifespan of people who are Fair Access to Care Services Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State critical; and what assumptions his Department has for Health pursuant to paragraph 2.2 of the Impact made on the effect on life expectancy of enactment of Assessment for the Personal Care at Home Bill, for his legislative proposals on personal care at home. what reasons the proposal was not included in the [304944] Green Paper. [304810] Phil Hope: No estimate or assumption of the average Phil Hope: Free personal care for those with the lifespan or life expectancy of those who will benefit highest needs in their own home was not considered in from the legislation have been made. Costings have been the Green Paper because it is a step towards that made on the estimated numbers of people meeting the National Care Service. The Green Paper puts forward criteria in any one year, with the exception of the costs fundamental proposals—partnership, insurance and of reablement and the costs of additional assessment, comprehensive—for the National Care Service to reform which are based on the flow of new entrants over the the system for all adults. course of a year. Proposals for reablement put forward in the impact assessment for the Personal Care at Home Bill were also Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State considered as part of the Green Paper. for Health with reference to the Impact Assessment for the Personal Care at Home Bill, what the (a) net benefit and (b) net benefit range associated with his Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State legislative proposals is. [304948] for Health if he will estimate the costs of taxpayer- funded personal care as set out in the Personal Care at Home Bill if the assumptions of the impact assessment Phil Hope: The impact assessment has not attempted were applied to population projections for (a) 2015, to specify the net benefit or a net benefit range owing to (b) 2020, (c) 2025 and (d) 2030. [304847] uncertainty in estimating a number of specific benefits, that is, the benefits from meeting unmet need, re-ablement and reducing the savings disincentive. This notwithstanding, Phil Hope: The impact assessment estimates the first the areas in which benefits have been quantified, namely full year costs of extending free personal care at home those people in highest need who will receive free personal to those with the highest needs at £537 million. It also care at home, equity distribution and the extended estimates the costs of providing reablement services insurance coverage, justify the proposed policy on cost- over the same period at £130 million, bringing the total benefit grounds. costs of the proposals to approximately £670 million. The impact assessment only covers the period from October 2010 to the end of 2012-13. Estimating beyond Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State this point to 2015, 2020, 2025 and 2030 is problematic for Health with reference to the Impact Assessment for because of the uncertainties involved. The proposals the Personal Care at Home Bill, what plans he has for here are intended as a step towards a fully integrated meeting transition costs. [304950] National Care Service, at which point a different set of assumptions may need to be applied. Phil Hope: A one-off transition cost of £335 million is set out in the impact assessment for the first half-year Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State of the policy, from October 2010. Thereafter, we do not for Health with reference to the checklist of impact consider that there will be transition costs associated tests in the Impact Assessment for the Personal Care at with this for local authorities. However, we will be Home Bill, whether the results of the human rights reviewing the impact of the policy after 12-18 months impact test have been published. [304851] to ensure that it is being applied properly and that there are no unforeseen costs or perverse incentives. Phil Hope: I sent a memorandum to my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon and Chair of the Joint Committee South East Coast Strategic Health Authority on Human Rights (Mr. Dismore), on 27 November 2009. The memorandum details the human rights Mr. Blunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Health implications of the Personal Care at Home Bill. A copy what the capitation cost was of (a) the Director and has been placed in the Library. (b) other staff in Communications and Engagement of the South East Coast Strategic Health Authority in the Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State latest year for which information is available. [304300] for Health what assessment his Department has made of the relative effects on the environment of care Gillian Merron: The last full year for which information delivered at home and in a residential home setting. about remuneration for the Director of Communications [304852] and Engagement of the South East Coast Strategic Health Authority (SHA) is available is 2008-09. This is Phil Hope: A sustainable development impact test published in the SHA’s ‘Annual Report 2008-09’, a has not been carried out as part of the impact assessment. copy of which has been placed in the Library. Information The policy will help people to remain living at home for about costs relating to the SHA Director of longer where this is what they wish. The environmental Communications and Engagement’s staff is not collected impact of the policy is likely to be negligible. centrally. 499W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 500W

Mr. Blunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Health has been reiterated in subsequent communications to (1) how much the South East Coast Strategic Health National Health Service staff. A copy of the letter has Authority paid to public relations companies in (a) been placed in the Library. 2007-08 and (b) 2008-09; and what budget has been set The following groups were initially prioritised for for such expenditure in 2009-10; [304532] vaccination in the following order: (2) what the cost was of the recent independent individuals aged six months and up to 65 years in the current survey of the regional stakeholders of the South East seasonal flu vaccine clinical at-risk groups; Coast Strategic Health Authority undertaken as part of all pregnant women; the Healthier people, excellent care programme; household contacts of immunocompromised individuals; and [304533] people aged 65 and over in the current seasonal flu vaccine (3) how much the South East Coast Strategic Health clinical at-risk groups. Authority spent on gathering public opinion and These groups were selected because they are at highest opinion polling in (a) 2006-07, (b) 2007-08 and (c) risk of severe illness. As vaccine became available, in 2008-09; and what budget has been set for such some areas priority groups i to iii have been vaccinated expenditure in 2009-10. [304534] concurrently, rather than in order of priority. In addition to these groups, frontline health and Gillian Merron: The information requested is not social care workers have been offered the vaccine at the collected centrally. These are matters for the South East same time as the first clinical risk group as they are at Coast Strategic Health Authority. increased risk of infection and of transmitting that infection to susceptible patients. Swine Flu: Vaccination On 19 November 2009 the Department announced Phase 2 of the vaccination programme. The programme Mark Hunter: To ask the Secretary of State for will be extended to children over six months and under Health what estimate his Department has made of the five years, after the initial priority groups have been number of people to whom it plans to offer the swine vaccinated. It will also be extended to main carers of influenza vaccination (a) in the Stockport Primary older and disabled people, subject to discussions with Care Trust area and (b) nationally. [304126] carers’ organisations.

Gillian Merron: The estimated number of people in Transplant Surgery the Stockport Primary Care Trust area who fall into a priority group for H1N1 influenza vaccination is about Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State 55,000. There are an estimated 15,000 children aged for Health how many transplants were performed in over six months and under five years that would fall private clinical practice using solid organs from living into the extended H1N1 vaccination programme. donors removed (a) in NHS facilities and (b) in other The estimated number of people in England who fall facilities in each of the last 10 years. [304249] into a priority group for H1N1 influenza vaccination is about 9.5 million. The estimated number of children in Ann Keen: All organ retrieval and organ implantation England who fall into the group aged over six months in the United Kingdom is notified to NHS Blood and and under five years is about 2.75 million. Transplant. All living donation in the UK is approved Health care workers involved in direct patient care by the Human Tissue Authority to safeguard against can also receive the H1N1 vaccine. This applies to coercion and trafficking. about one million individuals in England. There are an The method of payment for transplant operations estimated 4,000 people who fall into this category working carried out using organs taken from living donors in in Stockport national health service trusts. national health service trust facilities is not recorded. Therefore, it is not possible to provide data on the Mark Hunter: To ask the Secretary of State for number of transplants that were performed privately Health how many doses of swine influenza vaccine had using organs retrieved from living donors in NHS facilities. been distributed to health centres (a) in the Stockport The following table shows organs retrieved from living Primary Care Trust area and (b) nationally by 1 donors in non-NHS facilities for transplants performed December 2009. [304192] in private hospitals in the UK in each of the last 10 years. With one exception as detailed, all organs were Gillian Merron: By 1 December 2009, 68,000 doses of retrieved in the same private hospital where they were swine influenza vaccine have been delivered to the Stockport transplanted. primary care trust area. By the same date 8.8 million doses of swine flu vaccine had been delivered nationally. Kidney Liver lobe 1999-2000 4 2 Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State 2000-01 1 4 for Health what criteria are used by primary care trusts 2001-02 4 0 to prioritise individuals for swine influenza 2002-03 5 0 vaccinations. [304258] 2003-04 2 0 2004-05 6 0 Gillian Merron: The priority groups for swine flu 2005-06 3 2 vaccination were identified in the letter from the Chief 2006-071 40 Medical Officer (CMO) dated 13 August 2009, and this 2007-08 3 0 501W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 502W

Table 1: Apprenticeship achievements by sector subject area, 2007/08 Kidney Liver lobe Sector subject area 2007/08 full year (final) 2008-09 9 2 Grand total 112,600 1 In 2006-07, one kidney was retrieved in a private hospital and Notes: transplanted in an NHS hospital. Transplants carried out on private 1. Volumes are rounded to the nearest hundred. basis within NHS and Foundation trusts are not recorded separately. 2. ‘—’ Indicates a base value of less than 50. 3. Full-year numbers are a count of the number of achievements at any point during the year. Learners achieving more than one BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS framework will appear more than once. Source: Adult Education: Further Education Work Based Learning Individualised Learner Record Apprentices: Accountancy Mr. Harper: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills when Mr. Hayes: To ask the Minister of State, Department he expects the independent review commissioned by the for Business, Innovation and Skills how many Learning and Skills Council and undertaken by the apprenticeships in accounting were awarded by each Institute for Employment Studies, of the provision of awarding body in the last 12 months. [304504] further education courses for people aged 19 years and over with learning difficulties or disabilities to be Kevin Brennan: There were 2,700 achievements in the published. [302788] accountancy apprenticeship framework in 2007/08, the latest year for which we have complete data. Final data Kevin Brennan [holding answer 30 November 2009]: for the 2008/09 academic year will be published on 17 The IES report raised a number of very important December. In-year data for 2008/09 can be found in a questions and issues that my officials have been considering Statistical First Release at: against current policies. They have been discussing this http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/statistics/sfroct09/ further with colleagues in the Learning and Skills Council and I expect this work to be concluded very shortly. The Information on apprenticeship achievements by awarding report will be published by the end of December. body is not available. Apprentices Apprentices: Bexley

Mr. Hayes: To ask the Minister of State, Department Mr. Evennett: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how many for Business, Innovation and Skills how many people in apprenticeships were awarded in each subject sector in (a) Bexleyheath and Crayford constituency and (b) the the last 12 months. [304505] London Borough of Bexley, who lost their apprenticeship place in the last 12 months, have found new apprenticeship Kevin Brennan: The following table shows apprenticeship places with other employers. [300236] achievements by Sector Subject Area for 2007/08, the latest year for which we have complete data. Final Kevin Brennan: I refer to the answer I gave to him on information for the 2008/09 academic year will be released 5 November 2009, Official Report, column 1232W,when on 17 December. In-year information for 2008/09 can I explained that data about the number of apprentices be found in a Statistical First Release, at: made redundant are not currently available. We have http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/statistics/sfroct09/ put in place for this academic year, from 1 August, arrangements to record the number of apprentices who Table 1: Apprenticeship achievements by sector subject area, 2007/08 are made redundant. We expect these data to be available Sector subject area 2007/08 full year (final) from early in 2010. Currently, the National Apprenticeship Agriculture, Horticulture and 2,500 Service (NAS) has not been approached by providers, Animal Care employers or individuals in Bexleyheath and Crayford Arts, Media and Publishing 200 or in Bexley to support any redundant apprentices. Business, Administration and 23,600 The London NAS has commissioned an ESF-funded Law Apprentice Redeployment Support Programme to cover Construction, Planning and the 17,800 the whole of London. It will support up to 1,000 Built Environment apprentices, from all sectors, who have been made redundant Education and Training — or are under notice of redundancy, with a work-based Engineering and Manufacturing 20,800 training placement to enable them to complete their Technologies framework and enhance their opportunity to secure Health, Public Services and 13,800 alternative employment. The programme, which started Care in September, is due to run until 2010, and is being Information and 5,500 Communication Technology delivered by South London Business and Examplas. Languages, Literature and — Performance data are not yet available. Culture Leisure, Travel and Tourism 3,600 Apprentices: Environment Protection Preparation for Life and Work — Retail and Commercial 24,400 Mr. Hayes: To ask the Minister of State, Department Enterprise for Business, Innovation and Skills how many Science and Mathematics — apprenticeship schemes in green jobs have been Unknown 400 established since 1997. [304528] 503W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 504W

Kevin Brennan: The skills required in green jobs are monoxide alarms sold which are (a) provided with usually delivered through existing frameworks, for example lifetime batteries and (b) mains wired; [301461] through engineering or electro-technical apprenticeships. (2) what information his Department holds on the Information on the number of starts or achievements proportion of carbon monoxide alarms sold which on apprenticeship frameworks is published in a Statistical conform to BS EN 50291; and if he will make a First Release, and can be found at: statement. [301462] http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/statistics/sfroct09/ Work is currently under way to develop existing and Kevin Brennan: The Department does not hold new frameworks in green areas such as low-carbon and information relating to sales of carbon monoxide detectors. renewable energy industries, for example wind-turbine We would advise consumers to only buy carbon monoxide and solar photovoltaic panel installation jobs. detectors that are marked as conforming to BS EN 50291 as this standard includes performance requirements Broadband for such detectors.

Mr. Lancaster: To ask the Minister of State, Department Departmental Rail Travel for Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he has made of the average speed of broadband services available Norman Baker: To ask the Minister of State, Department in (a) England and (b) Milton Keynes. [304345] for Business, Innovation and Skills on what date (a) he and (b) the Secretary of State last travelled by train in Mr. Timms: This Department has not made an estimate the course of his official duties. [301202] of the average speed of broadband services available in (a) England and (b) Milton Keynes. However, Ofcom’s Mr. McFadden: My noble Friend the Secretary of Broadband Speed report indicates that in April 2009 State travelled by train on Friday 4 December for an average broadband speeds in the UK were 4.1 Mbit/s. official visit to Birmingham and I travelled to Coventry on Thursday 3 December to visit Modec, an electric van Building Colleges for the Future Programme manufacturing company.

Mr. Evennett: To ask the Minister of State, Department Departmental Scientists for Business, Innovation and Skills what recent discussions he has had with further education college principals Hugh Bayley: To ask the Minister of State, Department about the Building Colleges for the Future programme. for Business, Innovation and Skills how many (a) scientific [303167] advisers and (b) civil servants in scientific posts there are in his Department. [301930] Kevin Brennan: I have regular meetings with the Association of Colleges and individual college principles. Mr. McFadden: Professor Brian Collins is the Chief Additionally, in line with Sir Andrew Foster’s Scientific Adviser for the Department for Business, recommendations, a FE Reference Panel on Capital Innovation and Skills. He draws upon science and was established in collaboration with the Association of engineering expertise as necessary from within the Colleges (AOC). Through this panel, the Government department and externally. have consulted with the sector about the recent prioritisation exercise and on the future of the FE Capital programme. There are 197 civil servants in BIS and its agencies The reference panel last met on the 28 October and will who have signed up to the Government Science and continue to meet on a regular basis. Engineering network, which is for civil servants who identify themselves as scientists and/or engineers, or Mr. Evennett: To ask the Minister of State, Department who work in posts which demand science or engineering for Business, Innovation and Skills what his plans are skills. on the future of the Building Colleges for the Future programme; and if he will make a statement. [303170] Departmental Training

Kevin Brennan: The Building Colleges for the Future Mr. Hayes: To ask the Minister of State, Department Programme continues to move forward. In total across for Business, Innovation and Skills what training his this current spending period, Government will spend Department makes available to its officials immediately £1.7 billion on college buildings with continued investment prior to an overseas posting; and if he will make a earmarked for the next spending period. statement. [304558] Since the completion of the prioritisation exercise, the Department has been working with both the Learning Mr. McFadden: Most staff from the Department for and Skills Council (LSC) and the Association of Colleges Business, Innovation and Skills (BIS) working overseas (AOC) through the College Reference Panel to consult do so on loan to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office with the sector to determine how to best invest future (FCO). The training they receive immediately prior to investment. The group last met on the 28 October and an overseas posting depends on the post they are to take will do so again in January. up. BIS staff undertaking trade and investment posts Carbon Monoxide: Alarms overseas normally have the opportunity to attend an induction programme covering UKTI’s strategy, structure Tom Levitt: To ask the Minister of State, Department and business. The programme includes a mix of briefing for Business, Innovation and Skills (1) what information meetings and broader meetings with key stakeholders, his Department holds on the proportion of carbon sector specialists and relevant UK companies. Where 505W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 506W appropriate, further pre-posting training may be provided Job-sharing is a way of widening the talent pool and by FCO, e.g. language training; IT systems training and recruiting the best staff. In BIS, we held a job-share and similar. part-time workshop in July, to encourage more managers and staff to consider job share or part-time arrangements. Mr. Hayes: To ask the Minister of State, Department The workshop was attended by over sixty managers and for Business, Innovation and Skills how many officials staff. We also highlighted the Cabinet Office job share in his Department undertook media skills training in website: the last 12 month period for which figures are available. http://www.civilservice.gov.uk/news/2009/june/job-share.aspx [304561] We continue to promote job-sharing and job vacancies must explicitly address the scope for flexible working Mr. McFadden: Media skills training, arranged by opportunities in posts and state that applications are the Press Office, has been undertaken by the Department’s welcomed from candidates with part-time, job-share or permanent secretary and the Government chief scientific other flexible working arrangements. adviser in the last 12 months. Letter from Stephen Speed, dated 9th December 2009: Details of any other media skills training for officials The Minister of State, Department for Business, are not held centrally. Innovation and Skills has asked me to reply to your question how many and what percentage of staff of his Mr. Hayes: To ask the Minister of State, Department Department, its executive agencies and non-departmental for Business, Innovation and Skills whether his public bodies work flexibly or part-time; and what his Department funds any training courses which are Department’s policy is on making jobs available on a undertaken overseas; and if he will make a statement. job-share or flexible basis. [304566] As at 19/11/2009, we have the following numbers of staff who are working flexible working patterns: Mr. McFadden: The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (BIS) does not normally fund training courses Working pattern Number of employees undertaken overseas. BIS staff working overseas mainly do so on loan to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office Flexible working scheme 575 (FCO). Skills training overseas is usually funded through Compressed hours 52 FCO budgets. Part-time working 417 Home working 26 Departmental Working Hours Remote working 2 We also offer our staff flexi-time, but we do not Andrew Selous: To ask the Minister of State, Department record centrally the numbers of staff that use this for Business, Innovation and Skills (1) how many and working pattern. We also do not hold records centrally what percentage of staff of his Department, its executive of the number of staff that job share. Job sharers are agencies and non-departmental public bodies work flexibly included in the table as part-time workers. or part-time; and what his Department’s policy is on making jobs available on a job-share or flexible basis; Recruitment Policy for Flexible Working [301335] The Insolvency Service strongly encourages opportunities (2) when he will respond to question 301335, tabled for part-time, job share and other flexible working by the hon. Member for South West Bedfordshire on arrangements. When advertising posts, recruiting managers 19 November 2009, on departmental working practices. are not able to specify a specific working pattern e.g. [305838] full-time, part-time etc, unless a business case has been made through a relevant Director, and agreed by Human Resources. Applicants are not required to indicate their Mr. McFadden: Currently, there are 416 staff in Business, current or proposed working pattern. It is only at Innovation and Skills (BIS) who have chosen to work the point where an applicant is contacted to be offered part-time which represents 10.8 per cent. of staff. the job that a recruiting manager will discuss with the The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills applicant the proposed working pattern. (BIS) was created in June from the former Department Recruiting managers are encouraged to accommodate for Innovation for Universities and Skills (DIUS) and all working patterns, but where there is any doubt on former Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory whether a working pattern can be accommodated, the Reform (BERR). Workforce data is currently being applicant needs to discuss the proposals with their amalgamated. We do not have full flexible working data line-manager to establish what options are available to for former DIUS, but for former BERR it is estimated accommodate the pattern. Where the pattern cannot be that 1309 members of staff work flexibly, representing accommodated, the recruiting manager provides the 42.8 per cent. of former BERR staff. applicant with written objective justification for the This information does not include executive agencies decision. and non-departmental public bodies. Chief executives Letter from Peter Mason, dated 26 November 2009: of our executive agencies will respond to you directly. The Department offers a wide range of flexible working I am responding in respect of the National Measurement options to support our staff such as part-time working, Office (formerly National Weights and Measures Laboratory) to your Parliamentary Question tabled on 19/11/2009 [reference home working, condensed hours, flexi-time and annualised 301335 ] to the Minister of State, Department for Business, hours. The Remote computer access and remote telephony Innovation and Skills, asking how many and what percentage of options are also available to staff, to help them to work staff of his Department, its executive agencies and non-departmental flexibly. public bodies work flexibly or part-time. 507W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 508W

The National Measurement Office employs 65 members of Electric Vehicles staff, of whom 9 (13.9%) work part time and 5 (7.7%) have a home working contract. Statutory provisions have been extended to all staff in line with our equality policy and all staff have access Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Minister of State, to flexitime working and other flexible working patterns. When Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what posts are advertised each one is considered for various flexible funding his Department has allocated for the purpose working arrangements according to the business needs of the Agency. of developing electric cars in the last 12 months. [304039] Letter from Sean Dennehey, dated 24 November 2009: I am responding in respect of the Intellectual Property Office to your Parliamentary Question tabled 19 November 2009, to the Ian Lucas: The Department is supporting the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and development of electric vehicles through a number of Skills. measures including the Technology Strategy Board led The Intellectual Property Office (IPO), an Executive Agency of Low Carbon Vehicle Innovation Platform, worth the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, currently has approximately £150 million of public sector support; 153 part-time staff, representing 17% of its workforce. The IPO the work of the Research Councils and Energy Technologies has 72 staff who work from home (representing 8% of the Institute; and the Automotive Assistance Programme. workforce) of which, 17 are part-time. In the last year, the Technology Strategy Board’s Other forms of flexible working are available to all IPO staff, Innovation Platform has resulted in support for: including annualised hours, term-time working, job-sharing and compressed hours. Staff are able to manage their work-life balance A £50 million Low Carbon Vehicle Demonstrator Programme effectively on a daily basis within a normal bandwidth of 7am to (with public sector funding of £25 million, announced in 2008 7pm. and launched in June 2009), which will see more than 340 vehicles being trialled in several UK regions, managed through The IPO’s flexible working policy is published to all staff via eight industry-led consortiums, within the next six to eighteen its intranet and sets out its commitment to providing the widest months—the biggest project of its kind in the world. possible range of working patterns for staff. Applications to work flexibly are invited from staff and considered on an individual The development of an all-electric urban car with the provision basis. All vacancies are advertised as open to job share and of grant funding of £4.5 million for a £9 million project led by part-time working. Gordon Murray Design, which will develop four prototypes of the vehicle by February 2011. Letter from Tim Moss, dated December 2009: 10 innovative research projects through a £10m investment in I am replying on behalf of Companies House to your Parliamentary business led collaborative R and D projects that will lead to the Question tabled 19 November 2009, UIN 301335, to the Minister development of cutting-edge ultra efficient electrical systems of State for Business, Innovation and Skills. for electric and hybrid vehicles, and The majority of Companies House staff work their contracted A number of collaborative R and D projects, which were hours through a flexi system which means they can work flexibly allocated funding in prior years, but where spend has continued around core hours. 313 members of staff, equating to 26.7% of this year as the projects are typically of three to four years the workforce, work on a part-time basis. duration. All jobs are available on a job share or part-time basis. The Engineering and Physical Sciences Research Council (EPSRC) has committed £1.5 million to projects commencing in 2009 relating to the development of Departmental Written Questions electric vehicles. This brings their current portfolio of projects to £9.22 million in total. In addition, EPSRC John Mason: To ask the Minister of State, supports a broader range of underpinning research into Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how fuel cells, energy storage and networks and grids. many questions tabled for answer on a named day his In July, the Energy Technologies Institute announced Department received in each of the last 12 months; and it would be committing £3 million to the first stage of a to how many such questions his Department provided project to provide an evaluation of the consumer response a substantive answer on the day named. [305370] to plug-in vehicles and the supporting infrastructure. In September, the Department also announced an Mr. McFadden: The Department for Business, Innovation offer of a £10 million loan to Tata Motors European and Skills (and the previous Departments for Innovation, Technical Centre to support £2 5 million of investment Universities and Skills and Business, Enterprise and to develop and manufacture electric vehicles in Coventry. Regulatory Reform) received a total of 944 named day Although the company has now secured alternative parliamentary question during the fourth session of funding, it has voiced its appreciation for the offer Parliament. A total of 231 questions received a substantive under the Automotive Assistance Programme and the reply on the day requested. The Department aims to Government remain ready to support the company provide information to Members accurately and wherever should it require it. possible on time and notes the Government Response to the House of Commons Procedure Committee’s Third Report, published on 7 December 2009 [HC129]. Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what Following the merger of the two Departments in recent discussions he has had on the development of June 2009; the Business, Innovation and Skills parliamentary electric cars. [304048] unit was restructured and the figures for September to November (which form part of the figures indicated above) were 205 tabled named day parliamentary questions Ian Lucas: I have had a range of discussions with the of which 122 received a substantive answer on the date automotive sector about electric vehicles including, for specified. example, with JLR, GM, BMW, Nissan and Toyota. 509W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 510W

English Language Mr. McFadden: The UK Innovation Investment Fund will operate on a fund of funds structure which means it Mark Williams: To ask the Minister of State, Department will not invest directly in companies, but rather invest in for Business, Innovation and Skills how many individuals a small number of specialist technology funds that have (a) registered for and (b) successfully completed an the expertise and track record to invest directly in English for speakers of other languages approved course companies. These underlying funds will focus on investing in England in each of the last three years. [301733] in growing small businesses, start-ups and spin-outs, in strategically important UK sectors including clean Kevin Brennan: Learner participation and achievements technology, life sciences, advanced manufacturing and on English for Speakers of Other Languages (ESOL) ICT. Investments in individual technology funds will be courses are published in a quarterly statistical first a commercial decision for the fund of funds manager release (SFR). The latest SFR was published on 22 based on the quality of the investment opportunity and October and shows information for 2005/06 to 2008/09 the fund’s investment strategy. There is no restriction on (provisional): the spread of spending across technology sectors, with the exception of £25 million minimum investment in http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/statistics/sfroct09/ each of low carbon and life sciences. We anticipate that Table 1 shows participation and achievement on approved the actual level of investment in low carbon will exceed ESOL courses, and all ESOL courses in 2006/07 to £25 million. 2008/09 (provisional). Table 1: Participation and achievement of ESOL courses, 2006/07 to Estate Agents: Registration 2008/09(provisional) 2008/ Grant Shapps: To ask the Minister of State, Department 2006/07 2007/08 09(provisional)1 for Business, Innovation and Skills (1) how much the Participation Office of Fair Trading has received from estate agents in registration fees under the Money Laundering Regulations All ESOL courses 243,900 218,100 211,300 2007 in each of the last six months; and how much the Approved ESOL 164,500 167,500 169,600 courses Office expects to receive in each of the next three years; [303049] Achievement All ESOL courses 166,500 156,200 98,000 (2) whether the Office of Fair Trading undertook an impact assessment in respect of its proposals to require Approved ESOL 101,800 113,300 73,600 courses estate agents to register under the terms of the Money .1 Figures for 2008/09 are not directly comparable to earlier years as Laundering Regulations 2007; and if he will make a the introduction of demand led funding has changed how data is statement; [303050] collected and how funded learners are defined from 2008/09 onwards. (3) what research (a) his Department and (b) the More information on demand led funding is available at: Office of Fair Trading have undertaken on the effect on http://www.lsc.gov.uk/providers/funding-policy/demand-led- funding.htm.Notes: the estate agency sector of the implementation of the Notes: registration requirements under the Money 1. Figures have been rounded to the nearest hundred. Laundering Regulations 2007; [303113] 2. ‘Approved’ courses are those which can be funded by the Learning and Skills Council under section 96 or section 97 of the Learning and (4) what estimate the Office of Fair Trading has Skills Act 2000. made of the annual administrative costs of operating 3. Full-year numbers are a count of the number of learners that the system of estate agent registration in compliance participated/achieved at any point during the year. Learners undertaking/ with the Money Laundering Regulations 2007. [303048] achieving more than one course will appear only once in the ‘total learners’ category for each data collection. However, learners that are included in different data collections, whether that relates to different Kevin Brennan: The Office of Fair Trading’s (OFT) years or different funding streams, will be counted more than once. registration scheme for money laundering was launched 4. Learners undertaking or achieving both approved courses and on 31 July. No fees were sought or received prior to 31 courses which have not been approved are counted once only in the July. Forecasts for fee levels in 2010/11 onwards are totals. subject to future public consultation (to start in January Coverage: England Source: Individualised Learner Record 2010). The OFT will be seeking input on its future supervisory approach and fee structures to support From 2006/07, the LSC ceased funding very short supervisory activity. Future costs and fee levels have not courses (less than nine hours). Learners were encouraged yet been estimated. The OFT receives no central funding to enrol on longer, accredited Skills for Life courses. for its anti-money laundering supervisory role. The Accredited provision provides a higher quality of learner regime has to be self funding and the OFT can recover experience and leads to the gaining of a recognisable, its reasonable costs through fees. The consultation will transferable qualification upon completion. The impact enable the firms supervised by the OFT to influence of moving from shorter to longer courses is a reduction future costs. in overall learner numbers. Regarding the hon. Member’s questions in relation to impact assessments and research on the effect of registration on the estate agency sector, I refer to my Environment Protection: Finance answer of 21 July, Official Report, column 1676W. The OFT does not have a figure solely for the Gregory Barker: Toask the Minister of State, Department administrative costs of operating the system of estate for Business, Innovation and Skills how much funding agent registration. This is because there is no differentiation is available to low carbon innovative companies through made in the OFT’s budget for anti-money laundering the UK Innovation Investment Fund. [304474] between estate agents or Consumer Credit Financial 511W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 512W

Institutions. The OFT estimates that the cost of setting Investors in People up and operating the OFT’s money laundering registration in 2009/10 is as follows: Mr. Hayes: To ask the Minister of State, Department Staff costs: £397,000 for Business, Innovation and Skills what the cost to the Non-staff costs: £407,000 public purse has been of the Investors in People scheme Total: £804,000 to date; and if he will make a statement. [304571] This figure does not include (i) any costs for corporate support such as IT, finance or accommodation, which is Mr. McFadden: Between 1995 and present, the total totalled elsewhere in the budget, (ii) recovery of the amount of funding given by Government to Investors set-up costs from 2008/09 associated with registration, in People UK for the development and delivery of the or (iii) the estimated cost for 2009/10 associated with Investors in People standard is £65,585,404. Information the operation of the registration system since registration on funding prior to 1995 could be obtained only at launch on 31 July, which is £150,000. Forecasts for disproportionate cost. administration costs in 2010/11 onwards are subject to future public consultation and will be dependent on the Mr. Hayes: To ask the Minister of State, Department proportion of firms who register with OFT during the for Business, Innovation and Skills what recent initial six month registration period. These costs have assessment he has made of the effects on the economy not, as yet, been estimated. of the Investors in People scheme; and if he will make a statement. [304572] Further Education: Crimes of Violence Mr. McFadden: The Department has made no direct Mr. Evennett: To ask the Minister of State, Department assessment of the impact of the Investors in People for Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he Framework on the economy. However, IiP UK has itself has made of the number of violent attacks on further regularly commissioned research into the benefits of education college staff in the last 12 months. [303171] IiP. Details of recent research is available on the IiP UK Kevin Brennan: The Government are not the employer website and a copy will be placed in the Libraries of the of FE staff and as such keeps no central records to House. answer this sort of question. FE colleges were established as self-governing, Investors in People: Government Departments independent organisations following the enactment of the Further and Higher Education Act in 1992. Mr. Hayes: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how many Further Education: Finance Government (a) departments, (b) agencies and (c) non-departmental public bodies have been certified by Mr. Evennett: To ask the Minister of State, Department Investors in People to date. [304570] for Business, Innovation and Skills what recent estimate he has made of the financial losses experienced by Mr. McFadden: The number of public sector further education colleges in the last 12 months which organisations which are or have been recognised as an have not received capital funding from the Building Investor in People organisation is approximately 21,000. Colleges for the Future programme. [303166] Of this approximately 11,000 are currently recognised. The way in which data are collected and stored by IiP Kevin Brennan: We are not able to provide this UK does not allow for a breakdown of this figure into information as colleges are not due to submit audited the categories requested. The figure above covers all accounts for 2008-09 until the end of the calendar year, public sector organisations including (but not limited which will then be reviewed by the LSC. to) Government Departments, NDPBs, agencies, schools, The LSC has an existing process in place for dealing colleges, universities, hospitals and museums. with colleges that experience financial difficulties and is committed to ensuring that no college gets into financial Learning and Skills Council for England difficulty as a result of the Building Colleges for the Future Programme. Mr. Evennett: To ask the Minister of State, Department Higher Education: Qualifications for Business, Innovation and Skills what progress has been made on the transfer of the functions of the Learning and Skills Council to (a) the Skills Funding Mr. Evennett: To ask the Minister of State, Department Agency, (b) the National Apprenticeship Service, (c) for Business, Innovation and Skills what proportion of the Young People’s Learning Agency and (d) local foundation degrees are offered by further education authorities; and if he will make a statement. [300237] colleges. [303719] Kevin Brennan: We are making good progress in Kevin Brennan: 58 per cent. (19,390 students) of transferring the functions of the Learning and Skills UK-domicile foundation degree entrants to higher Council (LSC) to the Skills Funding Agency, the Young education institutions and further education colleges in People’s Learning Agency (YPLA) and local authorities. England were taught wholly at further education colleges Officials in this Department and the Department for in 2006/07. Children, Schools and Families are working with our These are the latest figures available from the Higher new partners to ensure a seamless handover in April Education Funding Council for England (HEFCE). and, as part of this, a period of shadow running has 513W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 514W already begun. We are on track for local authorities to Ian Lucas: Data about the wide range of Government assume their new responsibilities, and for the new support that is available and has been taken up by the organisations to be fully operational, from April 2010. automotive sector could be provided only at The National Apprenticeship Service, which has end-to-end disproportionate cost. responsibility for apprenticeships, has already been However, the number of registered automotive companies established (in April 2009) and will be housed within in England that have received Grant For Business the Skills Funding Agency from April 2010. Investment (GBI) or Selective Finance For Investment Lord Sugar In England (SFIE) assistance in each year since 2005 is as follows:

Mr. Hunt: To ask the Minister of State, Department Value of offers Accepted for Business, Innovation and Skills how many meetings Number (£000) Lord Sugar has had with (a) Baroness Vadera and (b) Lord Davies of Abersoch since being appointed 2005 12 11,864 Enterprise Champion. [305091] 2006 9 9,570 2007 10 4,555 Mr. McFadden [holding answer 8 December 2009]: 2008 6 3,063 Between 5 June, when the PM announced the appointment 20091 6 7,399 of Lord Sugar as Enterprise Champion, and 3 December, he has met Baroness Vadera four times and Lord Davies 1 To end Sept 2009 four times. The introduction of the car scrappage scheme at a cost In addition he has seen them on other occasions, of £400 million has benefited companies in both including in the House of Lords. manufacturing and retail. Mr. Hunt: To ask the Minister of State, Department National Star College: Finance for Business, Innovation and Skills (1) how many times Lord Sugar has visited his Department’s premises since Mr. Clifton-Brown: To ask the Minister of State, being appointed Enterprise Champion; [305093] Department for Business, Innovation and Skills when (2) how many meetings Lord Sugar has had with he expects a decision to be taken on funding for the officials in his Department since being appointed development of the National Star College; and if he Enterprise Champion. [305092] will take steps to ensure that funding is provided for the development of the college planned before the capital Mr. McFadden [holding answers 8 December 2009]: expenditure programme of the Learning and Skills Lord Sugar is an adviser to Government and small Council was put on hold. [302787] business and does not have a Department. He has met BIS officials on over 40 occasions between Kevin Brennan: Under the Learning and Skills Act the announcement of his appointment and 3 December. 2000, Ministers may not direct the LSC in its decision He has visited the Department over 20 times in the making regards individual capital approvals. same period. However, I met with the Principal of National Star However the main focus of his work as Enterprise on 9 July and agreed to ask the LSC to explore potential Champion has been meeting small businesses and seeing options for the college to move forward. This work business support delivery around the country. continues and I can confirm that for the future capital programme, the LSC is working with the AOC College Motor Vehicles: Manufacturing Industries Reference Panel to consider how to prioritise future investment. Miss McIntosh: To ask the Minister of State, Department Royal Mail: Industrial Disputes for Business, Innovation and Skills how many registered companies there were in the automotive industry in each year since 2005. [305303] Miss McIntosh: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he Ian Lucas: There are currently 73,286 limited companies has made of the effect of the industrial action by Royal in the automotive industry registered with Companies Mail employees called by the Communication Workers House. The figures are based on the standard industrial Union on small businesses in (a) Vale of York constituency, classification code shown on the annual return, which (b) North Yorkshire and (c) England; and if he will means that no figures are included for companies make a statement. [305224] incorporated in 2009 as they have not yet filed their first annual return. The annual figures are not available as Mr. McFadden: It is clear that industrial action by the register is constantly updated with no historical Royal Mail staff will impact on those customers that databases retained. Detailed information comparing heavily rely on Royal Mail services and we are aware dates of incorporation and dissolution could be secured that many small businesses throughout the country use only at disproportionate cost. postal services on a daily basis. The Government want to see a successful outcome to Miss McIntosh: To ask the Minister of State, the discussions between Royal Mail and the Communication Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how Workers Union under the agreement of 6 November many registered companies in the automotive industry and we welcome the appointment of Roger Poole, former have received Government assistance in each year since Assistant General Secretary of Unison and Chairman 2005. [305304] of the Parades Commission for Northern Ireland, to 515W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 516W independently oversee the process. It is important that Unemployment: Milton Keynes both parties keep talking until an agreement is made on the way forward on the next phase of modernisation, Mr. Lancaster: To ask the Minister of State, Department which everyone accepts is vital for the future of the for Business, Innovation and Skills what proportion of company. people in Milton Keynes aged (a) 16 to 18 and (b) 19 Training: Government Contracts to 24 years were not in education, training or employment in each quarter of the last 10 years. [304346] Mr. Hayes: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what steps his Mr. Iain Wright: I have been asked to reply. Department is taking to encourage holders of Estimates of participation in education, training and Government contracts to develop skills among their employment for those aged 16 to 18 are published by workforce. [304556] the Department in a Statistical First Release (SFR) each June and can be found on the Department’s website Kevin Brennan: The Government are committed to at using the unique leverage of their £220 billion procurement http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000792/ programme to promote skills training and apprenticeship index.shtml opportunities. In September 2009, I announced a new These estimates cannot be broken down to local authority ambition to support 20,000 new apprenticeships over level. However, Connexions Services collect information the next three years through Government procurement. on the number and proportion of 16 to 18-year-olds Departments and Agencies will play a central role in NEET in each local authority area. Figures for Milton delivering this ambition by building skills and Keynes are shown below. Figures for Milton Keynes are apprenticeships considerations into both new and existing not available prior to 2006. contracts. 16 to 18-year-olds NEET in Milton Keynes (Connexions estimates) The Department is supporting skills training and apprenticeship places through its procurement spend. Proportion (percentage) In the Learning and Skills Council’s Building Colleges 2006 6.5 for the Future programme, recent estimates suggest that 2007 5.8 on average one in every 20 workers employed on college 2008 5.9 construction projects is an apprentice. In April the then Department for Innovation, Universities Equivalent information is not available for 18 to and Skills and the Office of Government Commerce 24-year-olds. published practical guidance on how skills training and We are making all 16 and 17-year-olds an offer of apprenticeships can be promoted through procurement suitable place in learning through the September Guarantee. processes. The guidance has been widely adopted. The Department has asked local authorities to focus in particular on those who are disengaged from education Unemployment or missing school. The 14 to 19 curriculum reforms are creating a range of different learning opportunities suit Mr. Hayes: To ask the Minister of State, Department all young people, including those who need help to for Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he re-engage in learning. Connexions services provide tailored has made of the proportion of those not in support and advice, both on accessing education, employment, education or training who were unskilled employment or training, and on personal issues. in each of the last 18 months. [302570] My right hon. Friend, the Prime Minister announced Kevin Brennan: The following table gives the proportion on 18 November plans to guarantee an offer of an of people aged1 18 to 24 in England not in employment, Entry to Employment place to any 16 and 17-year-old education or training (NEET) who do not hold a level 2 who is not in education, employment or training (NEET) qualification in each quarter during the last 18 months. in January 2010. This will give those who were not Monthly estimates are not available as the Labour ready to engage in learning in September, or who have Force Survey, from which this information is produced, since left, a further opportunity to get the skills they is run on a quarterly basis. need to succeed. Proportion of 18 to 24-year-olds in England whose highest Unemployment: Young People qualification is below level 2 or have no qualifications. Percentage of 18 to 24 year Percentage of all 18 olds NEET not qualified to to 24 year olds not Mr. Willetts: To ask the Minister of State, Department level 2 qualified to level 2 for Business, Innovation and Skills how many people aged between (a) 16 to 18 and (b) 19 to 24 years old in Q2 2008 55.1 26.0 each ethnic group were not in education, training or Q3 2008 52.2 26.3 employment in each quarter of the last 10 years. Q4 2008 55.6 26.1 [303831] Q1 2009 55.0 25.7 Q2 2009 50.0 24.8 Kevin Brennan: The table gives the number and percentage Q3 2009 46.3 24.4 not in education, employment or training (NEET) broken 1 Age used is the respondents’ academic age, which is defined as their down by ethnic group for people aged1 16 to 18 and 19 age at the preceding 31 August. to 24 in England. Due to the small sample sizes involved Source: Labour Force Survey in analysis at this level of detail, quarterly data will not Base: give robust estimates and the Annual Population Survey 18 to 24-year-olds (academic age), England has been used instead. 517W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 518W

Details of a respondent’s ethnicity was not recorded an estimate is. For example, a CI of +/- 4.2 percentage prior to 2001, therefore the estimates are given for each points (pp) means that the true value is between 4.2pp year from 2001 to 2008. above the estimate and 4.2pp below the estimate.

Please note that these estimates are subject to large 1 Age used is the respondent’s academic age, which is defined as sampling variability and should therefore be treated their age at the preceding 31 August. with caution and viewed in conjunction with their Confidence Intervals2 (CIs), which indicate how accurate 2 Those given are 95 per cent. confidence intervals.

People not in education, employment or training in England Aged1 16 to 18 Aged1 19 to 24 Confidence Confidence Number Percentage Interval Number Percentage Interval Ethnic group NEET NEET (percentage) NEET NEET (percentage)

2001 White 151,000 10 +/- 0.6 426,000 14 +/- 0.6 Asian or 12,000 10 +/- 2.2 58,000 24 +/- 2.5 Asian British Black or 5,000 10 +/- 3.6 16,000 19 +/- 4.0 Black British Other ethnic 7,000 13 +/- 3.8 23,000 20 +/- 3.4 group2 Total 175,000 10 +/- 0.6 523,000 15 +/- 0.5

2002 White 173,000 11 +/- 0.6 433,000 14 +/- 0.6 Asian or 9,000 7 +/-1.9 57,000 23 +/- 2.3 Asian British Black or 5,000 9 +/- 3.4 22,000 23 +/-4.1 Black British Other ethnic 8,000 15 +/-3.9 22,000 16 +/- 2.9 group2 Total 195,000 11 +/- 0.6 534,000 15 +/- 0.5

2003 White 176,000 11 +/- 0.6 437,000 14 +/- 0.6 Asian or 10,000 8 +/-2.1 65,000 24 +/- 2.4 Asian British Black or 7,000 13 +/-4.1 21,000 22 +/-4.1 Black British Other ethnic 8,000 13 +/- 3.7 30,000 20 +/-3.1 group2 Total 201,000 11 +/- 0.6 553,000 16 +/- 0.5

2004 White 182,000 11 +/- 0.5 428,000 14 +/- 0.5 Asian or 12,000 10 +/- 2.3 61,000 24 +/- 2.3 Asian British Black or 5,000 10 +/-3.7 26,000 24 +/- 4.0 Black British Other ethnic 6,000 8 +/- 2.6 27,000 17 +/- 2.6 group2 Total 205,000 11 +/- 0.5 541,000 15 +/- 0.5

2005 White 198,000 12 +/- 0.6 475,000 15 +/- 0.5 Asian or 13,000 11 +/- 2.3 57,000 21 +/- 2.3 Asian British Black or 6,000 11 +/-3.7 27,000 24 +/- 4.2 Black British Other ethnic 7,000 9 +/- 2.8 36,000 20 +/- 2.9 group2 Total 224,000 12 +/- 0.5 594,000 16 +/- 0.5

2006 White 195,000 12 +/- 0.7 507,000 16 +/- 0.6 Asian or 11,000 9 +/- 2.4 67,000 22 +/- 2.4 Asian British Black or 4,000 7 +/-3.1 23,000 21 +/- 4.2 Black British Other ethnic 7,000 10 +/- 3.2 33,000 19 +/-3.1 group2 Total 218,000 11 +/- 0.6 630,000 16 +/- 0.6 519W Written Answers9 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 520W

People not in education, employment or training in England Aged1 16 to 18 Aged1 19 to 24 Confidence Confidence Number Percentage Interval Number Percentage Interval Ethnic group NEET NEET (percentage) NEET NEET (percentage)

2007 White 186,000 11 +/- 0.7 514,000 15 +/- 0.6 Asian or 12,000 10 +/- 2.4 66,000 23 +/- 2.5 Asian British Black or 3,000 6 +/- 2.9 23,000 20 +/- 4.0 Black British Other ethnic 9,000 11 +/- 3.3 36,000 19 +/- 3.0 group2 Total 211,000 11 +/- 0.6 638,000 16 +/- 0.6

2008 White 187,000 11 +/- 0.7 510,000 15 +/- 0.6 Asian or 13,000 10 +/- 2.4 53,000 18 +/- 2.2 Asian British Black or 8,000 11 +/- 3.7 29,000 24 +/- 4.2 Black British Other ethnic 10,000 10 +/-3.1 45,000 21 +/- 2.9 group2 Total 218,000 11 +/- 0.6 637,000 16 +/- 0.6 1 Age used is the respondent’s academic age, which is defined as their age at the preceding 31 August. 2 Other ethnic group includes respondents of mixed ethnicity. Note: The ALALFS covers the period from March in the given year to the following February. Base: 16 to 24-year-olds, England Source: Annual Population Survey 2004-08, Annual Local Area Labour Force Survey (ALALFS) 2001-03

Union Learning Fund: Finance last year, many from those hard to reach groups, who employers and training providers find it so difficult to Mr. Hayes: To ask the Minister of State, Department engage with, including over 33,000 workers with poor for Business, Innovation and Skills what Union basic literacy and numeracy skills. Learning Fund courses his Department and its Vocational Training predecessor has funded in the last five years. [304545] Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Minister of State, Department Mr. McFadden: The Union Learning Fund (ULF) is for Business, Innovation and Skills what steps his not used to directly fund the provision of education or Department plans to take to assist people who have lost training courses. Over the last five years my Department their jobs during the economic downturn to gain skills has provided £86 million to help trade unions boost and qualifications necessary for them to obtain employment. their capacity as learning organisations and use their [301634] influence with employers, employees and learning providers to encourage greater take up of learning in the workplace. Kevin Brennan: New offers worth over £300 million There are now over 23,000 trained Union Learning over two years will help up to 235,000 people get the Representatives who, supported by ULF, have helped training they need to obtain sustainable employment. more than 800,000 workers back into learning since the These programmes are in addition to existing support Fund was introduced in 1998. Over 220,000 were helped for the unemployed available through mainstream funding. ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 9 December 2009

Col. No. Col. No. CABINET OFFICE...... 337 CABINET OFFICE—continued 2011 Census ...... 345 Social Inclusion...... 339 Floods...... 346 Third Sector Recession Action Plan ...... 337 Government Statistics ...... 344 Information Commissioner...... 342 PRIME MINISTER ...... 346 Local Organisations (Funding) ...... 343 Early Intervention...... 352 People with Disabilities...... 340 Engagements...... 346 Social Exclusion...... 342 Engagements...... 353 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Wednesday 9 December 2009

Col. No. Col. No. CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 22WS INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 24WS Education, Youth and Culture Council...... 22WS United Nations Central Emergency Response Fund ...... 24WS ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS...... 23WS Agriculture and Fisheries Council (14-16 December) ...... 23WS TREASURY ...... 21WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 23WS Fiscal Responsibility Bill (Draft Secondary Security Industry Authority Annual Report and Legislation)...... 21WS Accounts 2008-09 ...... 23WS Pre-Budget Report Measures ...... 21WS PETITIONS

Wednesday 9 December 2009

Col. No. Col. No. PRESENTED PETITION Badman Report (Charnwood) ...... 13P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Wednesday 9 December 2009

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 501W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS—continued Adult Education: Further Education ...... 501W Lord Sugar...... 513W Apprentices...... 501W Motor Vehicles: Manufacturing Industries...... 513W Apprentices: Accountancy ...... 502W National Star College: Finance ...... 514W Apprentices: Bexley...... 502W Royal Mail: Industrial Disputes ...... 514W Apprentices: Environment Protection ...... 502W Training: Government Contracts ...... 515W Broadband ...... 503W Unemployment ...... 515W Building Colleges for the Future Programme ...... 503W Unemployment: Milton Keynes...... 516W Carbon Monoxide: Alarms...... 503W Unemployment: Young People...... 516W Departmental Rail Travel...... 504W Union Learning Fund: Finance ...... 519W Departmental Scientists ...... 504W Vocational Training...... 520W Departmental Training ...... 504W Departmental Working Hours ...... 505W CABINET OFFICE...... 349W Departmental Written Questions ...... 507W Charities: Regulation ...... 350W Electric Vehicles ...... 508W Christmas...... 350W English Language ...... 509W Civil Servants: Hearing Impaired...... 350W Environment Protection: Finance ...... 509W Civil Service Compensation Scheme ...... 349W Estate Agents: Registration...... 510W Departmental Security ...... 351W Further Education: Crimes of Violence ...... 511W Freedom of Information ...... 351W Further Education: Finance...... 511W Scientists ...... 351W Higher Education: Qualifications...... 511W Third Sector...... 349W Investors in People ...... 512W Investors in People: Government Departments...... 512W CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES ...... 422W Learning and Skills Council for England ...... 512W Children: Day Care ...... 422W Col. No. Col. No. CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES—continued ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE—continued Children: Social Services...... 424W Departmental Recruitment ...... 419W Departmental Finance ...... 424W Departmental Research...... 419W Secondary Education: Gifted Children ...... 425W Electricity: Pensions...... 420W Youth Opportunity Fund: Youth Capital Fund ..... 431W Energy: Housing ...... 420W Energy: Prices ...... 420W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT . 389W National Nuclear Policy Statement ...... 421W Council Housing: Finance ...... 389W Renewable Energy: Fuel Oil ...... 422W Council Housing: Sales ...... 389W Departmental Electronic Equipment ...... 390W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Departmental Freedom of Information ...... 390W AFFAIRS...... 376W Departmental Official Hospitality...... 391W Capita ...... 376W Departmental Scientists ...... 391W Climate Change: Antarctic...... 375W Departmental Sick Leave ...... 391W Departmental Internet ...... 376W Departmental Written Questions ...... 391W Departmental Taxis ...... 377W Empty Property: Greater London...... 392W Flood Control: Expenditure...... 377W Empty Property: Tyne and Wear...... 392W Marine Management Organisation ...... 378W Flood Control: Finance ...... 393W Oils: Waste...... 378W Hotels ...... 395W Organic Farming...... 379W Housing: Rural Areas ...... 395W Rights of Way...... 379W Local Government Finance ...... 396W Local Government Finance: Chorley ...... 397W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE .... 354W Mersey Coastal Park...... 398W Afghanistan: Armed Conflict...... 354W Multiple Occupation...... 398W Afghanistan: Politics and Government ...... 354W Non-Domestic Rates...... 398W Afghanistan: Reconstruction ...... 355W Non-Domestic Rates: Empty Property...... 400W Aminatou Haidar...... 356W Non-Domestic Rates: Valuation ...... 402W British Indian Ocean Territory: Environment Property Development: Floods ...... 402W Protection ...... 356W Regeneration: Bexley...... 404W Departmental Information Officers ...... 356W Rented Housing ...... 403W Ilois: Resettlement...... 356W India: Religious Freedom...... 357W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 369W Israel: Prisoners ...... 357W Betting Shops: Horseracing...... 369W Middle East: Armed Conflict...... 357W Broadband: East Midlands ...... 369W Morocco: Mining...... 358W Departmental Buildings...... 370W Proliferation: Nuclear Weapons ...... 359W Departmental Electronic Equipment ...... 370W Religious Freedom ...... 359W Departmental Freedom of Information ...... 370W Sudan: Politics and Government...... 360W Departmental Public Relations ...... 370W Taliban...... 360W Departmental Scientists ...... 371W USA: Anti-semitism...... 360W Departmental Travel ...... 371W Western Sahara: Human Rights...... 361W Edelman UK: Public Relations ...... 371W Fishburn Hedges: Public Relations ...... 371W HEALTH...... 465W Gambling Commission: Birmingham...... 371W Alcoholic Drinks: Prices ...... 465W Gambling Commission: Finance...... 372W Arthritis: Health Services...... 466W Gambling Commission: Reviews...... 372W Blood: Donors ...... 467W Hotels ...... 372W Bolton Primary Care Trust: Managers ...... 467W Licensed Premises: Statistics ...... 373W Bone Marrow Disorders: Donors...... 469W National Lottery: Grants ...... 373W Coeliac Disease ...... 469W Cord Blood ...... 470W DEFENCE...... 361W Dangerous Dogs: Merseyside...... 470W Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations ...... 361W Departmental Internet ...... 471W Armed Forces: Equipment ...... 362W Departmental Legislation ...... 473W Armed Forces: Injuries...... 363W Departmental Written Questions ...... 475W Armoured Fighting Vehicles ...... 364W Drugs: Misuse...... 476W AWE Aldermaston...... 364W Drugs: Rehabilitation...... 476W Departmental Buildings...... 365W EU Law...... 476W Departmental Compensation...... 365W Exercise...... 477W Departmental Official Hospitality...... 366W Fibromyalgia...... 477W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 366W Health Professions: Equal Opportunities ...... 477W Departmental Public Relations ...... 366W Health Services: Greater London...... 478W Departmental Telephone Services ...... 366W Health Services: Inspections...... 478W Departmental Written Questions ...... 367W Heart Diseases: Health Services ...... 479W HMS Endurance...... 367W Hospitals: Admissions ...... 479W Kentigern House...... 367W Hospitals: Hygiene...... 479W Rescue Services: Helicopters ...... 368W Hospitals: Infectious Diseases...... 480W St. Kilda: Radar...... 368W Hospitals: Manpower...... 480W Hospitals: South East ...... 489W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 417W Influenza: Stockport ...... 490W Carbon Emissions...... 417W Legislation ...... 491W Departmental Information Officers ...... 418W Medical Treatments...... 491W Departmental Internet ...... 418W Midwives: Manpower...... 491W Col. No. Col. No. HEALTH—continued NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 374W NHS: Data Protection...... 492W Northern Ireland Equality Commission: Public NHS: DHL ...... 493W Relations...... 374W NHS: Finance ...... 493W Police Service of Northern Ireland...... 374W NHS: Information and Communications Weapons: Explosives...... 375W Technology ...... 493W NHSU...... 494W OLYMPICS ...... 349W Patient Choice Schemes ...... 494W Siemens...... 349W Pharmacy...... 494W Social Services...... 494W SCOTLAND...... 374W South East Coast Strategic Health Authority...... 498W Departmental Contracts ...... 374W Swine Flu: Vaccination ...... 499W Transplant Surgery...... 500W TRANSPORT ...... 380W Departmental Electronic Equipment ...... 380W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 413W Departmental Information Officers ...... 380W Animal Welfare ...... 413W Departmental Public Relations ...... 381W Asylum ...... 413W Departmental Taxis ...... 382W Criminal Records Bureau: Finance ...... 413W Departmental Theft ...... 381W Deportation: Palestinians...... 413W Departmental Working Hours ...... 381W Entry Clearances...... 414W Driving...... 382W Extradition...... 415W M5: Automatic Number Plate Recognition...... 383W Government Communications ...... 415W Norwich-London Railway Line ...... 384W Members: Correspondence ...... 416W Railways: Scotland...... 384W Passports: Fees and Charges ...... 416W Railways: Standards...... 384W Police: Hunting ...... 416W Railways: Tickets ...... 385W Police: Public Appointments ...... 416W Roads: Accidents ...... 386W Radicalism: Civil Servants ...... 417W Rolling Stock: Procurement ...... 388W Wickham Research Laboratories ...... 417W Speed Limits: East Sussex ...... 388W TREASURY ...... 404W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 352W Bookmakers: Betting Shops ...... 404W Departmental Written Questions ...... 352W Departmental Written Questions ...... 405W Palestinians: Education...... 352W Excise Duties: Oil...... 405W Palestinians: Overseas Aid ...... 353W Financial Services: Advisory Services...... 405W South East Asia: Tuberculosis...... 353W Property: Valuation...... 405W Sri Lanka ...... 353W Taxation: Business ...... 406W Sri Lanka: Overseas Aid ...... 354W Welfare Tax Credits...... 406W

JUSTICE...... 431W WALES...... 349W Advisory Panel on Judicial Diversity ...... 431W Departmental Written Questions ...... 349W Crimes of Violence: Sentencing...... 432W Driving Offences ...... 432W WOMEN AND EQUALITY ...... 351W EU Law...... 433W Equality and Human Rights Commission: Public Freedom of Information: Academies ...... 433W Relations...... 351W Hunting Act 2004: Prosecutions...... 434W Legal Aid ...... 434W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 407W Legal Profession: Females...... 436W Attendance Allowance ...... 407W Legal Services Commission: North West...... 437W Carers’ Benefits...... 407W Monarchy: Succession...... 438W Council Tax Benefits...... 408W Offenders: Rehabilitation ...... 440W Crisis Loans ...... 408W Office of Public Sector Information: Marketing..... 451W Departmental Contracts ...... 409W Pathogens Access Appeals Commission...... 451W Departmental Internet ...... 409W Prison Accommodation ...... 452W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 410W Prisoners: Training...... 459W Disabled People: Social Security Benefits...... 410W Prisons: North West...... 462W Flexible Working: Wales...... 410W Probation: South East...... 461W Members: Correspondence ...... 411W Rape: Domestic Violence ...... 463W Retirement ...... 411W Remand in Custody: Ashford...... 464W Social Security Benefits: Elderly...... 411W Transsexuality ...... 464W Social Security Benefits: Greater Manchester ...... 412W Young Offenders: Location ...... 465W Social Security Benefits: Pilot Schemes ...... 412W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied, nor can corrections be made in the Weekly Edition. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

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CONTENTS

Wednesday 9 December 2009

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 337] [see index inside back page] Cabinet Office Prime Minister

Pre-Budget Report [Col. 359] Statement—(Mr. Darling)

Fiscal Responsibility [Col. 387] Bill presented, and read the First time

Child Poverty Bill [Col. 388] Considered; read the Third time and passed

Petitions [Col. 466]

Upper Gastrointestinal Surgery [Col. 472] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Evironmental Protection [Col. 479] Motion, on a deferred Division, agreed to

Westminster Hall Burma [Col. 73WH] King James Bible [Col. 97WH] National DNA Database [Col. 104WH] Listed Sporting Events [Col. 128WH] British Forces Post Office [Col. 136WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 21WS]

Petitions [Col. 13P]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 349W] [see index inside back page]