Wednesday Volume 693 28 April 2021 No. 208

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 28 April 2021 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2021 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 357 28 APRIL 2021 358

have been possible here in Scotland only because of the House of Commons success of the UK vaccination programme, and that Nicola Sturgeon’s claims that, somehow, an independent Wednesday 28 April 2021 Scotland within the EU would have done it differently are complete rubbish?

The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock Mr Jack: I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. Just once, on something as important as live-saving vaccines, it would be nice to see the First Minister congratulate PRAYERS the Prime Minister and the United Kingdom Government on our highly successful UK-wide vaccine procurement [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] programme. Virtual participation in proceedings commenced (Orders, Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): Mr Speaker, I 4 June and 30 December 2020). hope you will allow me to pay tribute to everyone who is [NB: [V] denotes a Member participating virtually.] commemorating on International Workers’ Memorial Day today, and also to wish the Secretary of State a very happy Day, which is also today. Oral Answers to Questions On “The Andrew Marr Show” on Sunday, the First Minister admitted that there has been no analysis done on the impact of separation on incomes—that is wages, livelihoods and, of course, pensions. It follows a long SCOTLAND list during this election campaign where the SNP has avoided answering questions on currency, EU accession, The Secretary of State was asked— jobs, deficit, debt, public spending, the parallels with and, of course, the spectacle of senior SNP MSPs saying The Union last week that a border with would be “desirable” because it would create jobs—a rare honest admission StuartC.McDonald(Cumbernauld,KilsythandKirkintilloch about a border with our largest trading partner. For two East) (SNP): What recent assessment he has made of days in a row, respected think-tanks have warned that the strength of the Union. [914669] leaving the UK and giving up our share of UK resources means supercharged austerity. The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr Alister Jack): Surely one of the strongest positive cases for the We can assess the strength of the Union every day, as we Union is the reality of separation. If proponents of see the number of people vaccinated across the country separation continue to refuse to answer critical questions continue to rise, as we see the number of jobs we have that fundamentally impact on people’slivelihoods, incomes protected and as we see our vital, ambitious plans to and futures, what can be done to inject some much-needed rebuild our economy. I am surprised the hon. Gentleman honesty,integrity and truth into this debate, for the benefit is asking about recent assessments, because the one of all Scots? thing we learned this week is that his boss, Nicola Sturgeon, has made no recent assessment of her plan to Mr Jack: I absolutely agree with the hon. Gentleman rip Scotland out of the United Kingdom and the damage that independence would have a whole series of negative that would cause. consequences for the people of Scotland, not just on their pensions and benefits but on currency, border issues Stuart C. McDonald [V]: If the Secretary of State is and armed services. The list is endless. There has been so confident in the Union, why is he stopping the Prime no assessment of those things, as I said earlier. Minister coming to Scotland to campaign for it? Have the dubious donations for renovations made that This is the time when we should be coming together impossible? The contracts for contacts? The disgraceful for covid recovery and to rebuild our economy, not even comments about bodies piling high? Or is it simply that considering an irresponsible independence referendum. the Prime Minister represents a fundamental problem I would very much welcome it if the Labour party, and for Scotland being in the Union, with year after year of the other political parties, showed a willingness to come Prime Ministers, parties and policies that Scotland would together to work on how we can strengthen our Union. not vote for in a million years? Ian Murray: Anas Sarwar has said throughout this Mr Jack: In all the conversations I have had with the campaign that we need to unite the country to deal with Prime Minister—and I have them on a weekly basis, in this global pandemic. person, one to one, by telephone—his passion for the Talking of honesty,integrity and truth, will the Secretary United Kingdom and the strength of the United Kingdom of State take this opportunity to apologise on behalf of burns brightly. the Prime Minister for his “let the bodies pile high” comment, when so many have lost loved ones due to Douglas Ross (Moray) (Con) [V]: As of yesterday, covid? There have been more than 800 deaths in my city 61.3% of Scots aged 16 or over have received at least of Edinburgh alone. While he is apologising, perhaps he one dose of covid vaccine, compared with just 24.3% of can tell us, if the Prime Minister has nothing to hide, people aged 18 or over who have received a vaccine in who funded the refurbishment of the Downing Street the European Union. Does the Secretary of State agree flat. Does he think the endemic sleaze in his Government, that the outstanding efforts of our NHS staff, our with continual questions about the personal conduct British armed forces and our vaccination volunteers and integrity of the PM, strengthens or weakens the Union? 359 Oral Answers 28 APRIL 2021 Oral Answers 360

Mr Jack: What I would say on the bodies remark is Mr Jack: I say to the hon. Lady that in 2014 there that in every conversation I have had with the Prime was a referendum; it had been many years since the Minister in the past year his desire, at all levels, has been question had been asked, and that was with the consent to save lives and protect the NHS; we have had many of both Scotland’s Governments and all the main political conversations, in Cabinet Committees, in Cabinet and parties. I am glad to say that in Scotland people shared in private, and I have no recollection of him being my opinion in 2014 and consented to continue being anything other than totally focused on saving lives and members of the UK. protecting the NHS. He has been entirely focused on this pandemic all the way through. He has not been Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP) [V]: distracted, as others have, for example, the nationalists, There is only one sure-fire way for the Union to be with Nicola Sturgeon admitting that she took her eye strengthened in the next week and that is to get the off the ball. He has not taken his eye off the ball. He has Prime Minister to Scotland and on the campaign trail. been focused on the pandemic. He has tackled vaccines The Secretary of State surely knows that there will be and the programme, and he now wants to lead our throngs of happy Scots rejoicing in the Prime Minister’s economic recovery. Those are the things we should hold sleaze-free presence, helping the Electoral Commission him to account for; those are the things that strengthen with its inquiries and sharing anecdotes about bodies the United Kingdom. piled high on the streets—what could possibly go wrong for the Scottish Tories? Can the Secretary of State and I John Lamont (Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk) start working on the itinerary? Surely Scotland deserves (Con) [V]: There has been much reckless chat from to see its Prime Minister before he inevitably has to resign. Scottish National party politicians about creating a hard border between Scotland and the rest of the Mr Jack: As the hon. Gentleman well knows, the United Kingdom. My constituents in the Scottish Borders Prime Minister’s diary is not my concern, and he certainly want to see the threat of a border—and the threat of will not be resigning. I come back to the point I made another referendum—removed. Does the Minister agree earlier: in all my discussions with him, his passion for that the voters of Scotland have an opportunity to strengthening the UK burns very bright indeed. remove that threat next week in the Scottish elections by depriving the SNP of a majority and that the best way Universal Basic Income of doing that is by voting Scottish Conservative?

Mr Speaker: Bit of a toughie. David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP): What recent assessment his Department has made of the potential Mr Jack: You will not be surprised to hear,Mr Speaker, merits of trialling a universal basic income in Scotland. thatIdoagreewithmyhon.Friend.Inotewithastonishment [914670] the comments of the South Scotland MSP Emma Harper that a border would be a good way of creating jobs, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland despite the fact that 60% of our trade is with the rest of (Iain Stewart): The UK Government’sapproach to welfare the UK. All I would say is that if the SNP thinks that a is to recognise the value and importance of work, make border is such a good idea for jobs, I am surprised it work pay and support people into work, while giving does not want to go the whole hog and propose building extra help to the most vulnerable in society.On that basis, a wall. we consider that a universal basic income is fundamentally the wrong approach. Mhairi Black (Paisley and Renfrewshire South) (SNP) [V]: Particularly as we rebuild after covid, we have an David Linden: I am grateful to the Minister for that opportunity and a need to make radically different reply. I know that he is committed to devolution and the economic choices. After a week of troublesome allegations respect agenda and would want to take very seriously about the Government and the Prime Minister, it should the outcome of the election result in Scotland. Given be no surprise that many in Scotland want to take a that all the main parties in Scotland—representing 80% of different, independent path to that of this Government. Scottish voters—except the Conservatives have indicated If that request is reflected in the upcoming Scottish support for trialling the concept of UBI, does the Government elections and a majority of pro-independence Minister accept that if indeed those parties are elected MSPs are elected, will the Minister and his Government in the next Parliament, there will be a mandate and going respect that as a mandate for a second independence ahead with trials would just be a matter of respecting referendum? devolution?

Mr Jack: First, let us not take the outcome of the Iain Stewart: I make two points in response to the election for granted at this stage. Let us recognise that hon. Gentleman. First, if he looks around the world at the focus for Scotland must be on pandemic recovery. where UBI has been trialled—in Finland and Canada, We have saved lives through the vaccine procurement, for example—it has not been a success. Indeed, the Finance and it is now time to save livelihoods and to rebuild as Minister in Finland has scrapped it and is instead looking one United Kingdom. at something along the lines of our universal credit system. Secondly, the Scottish Government already have Mhairi Black: I did not hear an answer to my question substantial powers over welfare. there. The leader of the Scottish Conservatives was asked multiple times on recent media, “What would be Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD) [V]: Although the democratic path for Scotland to an independence I share the determination of the hon. Member for Glasgow referendum?” He could not answer the question, so can East (David Linden) for a universal basic income as the the Minister tell us what the path is? way ahead and his disappointment that it is not being 361 Oral Answers 28 APRIL 2021 Oral Answers 362 trialled in Scotland, does the Minister share my David Duguid: I completely agree with my hon. Friend. disappointment that the SNP Government at Holyrood Our proposed world-leading target marks a decisive were not able to get their processes in shape in time to step towards net zero by 2050 and would reduce greenhouse adopt the powers over welfare in the Scotland Act 2016 gas emissions by 78% by 2035, compared with 1990 levels. that might have given them more influence over the Through this year’s COP26 summit, we will urge countries situation? and companies around the world to join us in delivering net zero globally.Wecontinue to work together throughout Iain Stewart: I certainly agree with the hon. Lady’s all parts of the UK to achieve our net zero ambitions point that the Scottish Government still have much to and a green recovery from the covid-19 pandemic. do to unlock the full potential of the powers devolved to them in the Scotland Act 2016. We are committed to Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP): The working closely with them to allow them to implement Minister should be embarrassed that renewables generators those powers. It strikes me that the separatists are in Scotland face the highest locational grid charges in always quick to demand more powers or more money the whole of Europe. Ahead of COP26, we need to see a to shift the blame away from their failures in office on route to market for pumped-storage hydro and for wave delivering on the issues that matter to the people of and tidal, the go-ahead given for Acorn carbon capture Scotland. and storage and a contract for difference for hydrogen. What capability does the Scottish Office, working with COP26 Cabinet colleagues, have to get those matters resolved?

John Howell (Henley) (Con): What recent discussions David Duguid: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his he has had with Cabinet colleagues on the potential question. I share his enthusiasm for all things related to opportunities for Scotland arising from COP26. [914671] energy renewables, but he will know as well as I do that, by law, transmission charging is a matter for Ofgem as (Rother Valley) (Con): What recent the independent regulator. I imagine that he will also be discussions he has had with Cabinet colleagues on the aware that Ofgem is currently considering some aspects potential opportunities for Scotland arising from COP26. of transmission charging arrangements through its access [914674] and forward-looking charges review.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland Angela Crawley (Lanark and Hamilton East) (SNP) (David Duguid): I have regular discussions with ministerial [V]: The SNP Scottish Government have committed to colleagues, as well as industry stakeholders, on the doubling their climate change justice fund if re-elected opportunities that COP26 offers across Scotland. The next week. This £21 million fund is used to help combat COP26 devolved Administration ministerial group brings the effects of climate change in the global south while we together the COP26 President, territorial Secretaries of tackle carbon emissions at home. In the year of COP26, State and devolved Administration Ministers to support will the UK Government follow Scotland’s lead and the delivery of an inclusive and welcoming COP26 commit to a comparable climate justice fund to help summit that is representative of the whole United Kingdom. those affected by climate change? John Howell [V]: Last year,the SNP Government missed David Duguid: Not only will we commit to a comparable their own legal emissions targets, with source emissions financial commitment, but the recent spending review in Scotland actually increasing by 1.5% in 2017-18. Does committed to spending £12 billion on green measures to my hon. Friend agree that, as we approach the crucial support the 10-point plan and boost the UK’s global COP26 summit in Glasgow later this year, the Scottish leadership on green infrastructure and technologies, not people deserve a Government who are 100% focused on just ahead of COP26 this year, but beyond as well. a green recovery, not on another divisive independence referendum? Research and Innovation Funding: Scottish Universities David Duguid: I am sure you will agree, Mr Speaker, that it is not for me to answer for the failings of the Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): What Scottish Government. However, I assure my hon. Friend recent assessment he has made of the effect of the that the UK Government are absolutely focused on recent reduction in official development assistance funding achieving a green recovery, as set out by the Prime to UK Research and Innovation on Scottish universities. Minister in his 10-point plan last year. This Government [914675] are also focused on safeguarding the Union, and I agree with my hon. Friend that a divisive referendum on The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland Scotland’s separation from the UK at this time would (Iain Stewart): The United Kingdom is and will remain be an irresponsible distraction from the necessary work a research superpower, with research and development required towards that green recovery. spending at the highest level for four decades. The Government have committed to investing nearly £15 billion Alexander Stafford: I welcome the ambitious new in R&D in 2021-22, much of which will be used to fund target that the Government set last week to cut the the work being led by our world-class universities. UK’s carbon emissions by 78% by 2035. Does my hon. Friend agree that in the run-up to the crucial COP26 Andrew Gwynne [V]: Both Aberdeen and St Andrews summit later this year, it is more important than ever for universities stand to lose £2.5 million each as a result of all parts of the UK to work together so that we can official development assistance cuts. Among the ongoing meet that target and build back better and greener from projects at risk at Aberdeen is a £1.8 million research the pandemic? initiative into the spread of infectious diseases between 363 Oral Answers 28 APRIL 2021 Oral Answers 364 rodents and humans. Given that we have recently been including those in Scotland, in Rosyth and the Clyde, reminded of the importance of long-term, well-funded which are currently constructing the new frigate fleets. research in responding to a global crisis, what steps are The Ministry of Defence has spent £2.7 billion with being taken to ensure that these cuts do not impair Scottish industry in 2019 and 2020 alone, and that has Scotland’s ability to respond to future crises? supported 12,400 jobs.

Iain Stewart: The first point I would make to the hon. Antony Higginbotham: The integrated review published Gentleman is that I am always willing to discuss individual last month made it clear that our strongest asset is the programmes with specific universities and I have done capabilities, expertise and skills we have across the United that through the hon. Member for North East Fife Kingdom. Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is the (Wendy Chamberlain) in the case of St Andrews. The same expertise and skills, shared across the country, that second point is that all the universities that he has listed has enabled us to spend billions of pounds over the next have benefited from significant investments either directly decade on shipbuilding in Scotland? through UK Research and Innovation or through our city and regional growth deal programmes, looking at R&D Mr Jack: Yes; I wholeheartedly agree. We saw a fine initiatives such as clean energy and sustainable farming. example of Scotland’s contribution to the UK’s defences this week with the deployment of our new aircraft Mr Speaker: We now come to the shadow Minister, carrier strike group, which was built in yards around the Chris Elmore. United Kingdom, but was constructed in Scotland. Her Chris Elmore (Ogmore) (Lab): It is strange, because Majesty’s Ship Queen Elizabeth will fly the flag for global Universities Scotland says that the ODA funding cut is Britain right around the world. unprecedented and egregious, yet the Minister stands at the Dispatch Box and says that it is okay because the Support for Businesses: Covid-19 universities get funding from other sources. Universities Scotland says that it amounts to a 70% cut in overseas Sally-AnnHart(HastingsandRye)(Con):Whatassessment funding for the development of projects across universities he has made of the adequacy of economic support in Scotland. Can the Minister explain how these cuts for Scottish businesses during the covid-19 outbreak. are reconciled with the Conservative Government’s idea [914678] of their post-Brexit ambition to build a global Britain? The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland Iain Stewart: As I said in response to the hon. Member (Iain Stewart): Last month’s Budget provides continued for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne), I am more UK-wide support and security to manage the ongoing than happy to discuss individual programmes with the impacts of covid-19. One in three jobs in Scotland has universities concerned, but if we look at R&D investment been supported by the UK Government’s employment from this Government in the round, it is significantly support package; Scottish businesses have benefited up, and Scottish universities are punching above their from more than £3.4 billion of loans and support; and weight in securing a share of that. we have provided a much needed boost to the Scottish Defence Sector tourism and hospitality sector with our UK-wide extension of the VAT reduction. Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con): What steps his Department is taking to support the defence sector in Scotland. Sally-Ann Hart [V]: Scotland’sAuditor General recently [914676] said that the Scottish Government had received an extra £9.7 billion from the UK Government during 2020-21 Antony Higginbotham (Burnley) (Con): What steps to tackle covid, yet it only made £7 billion-worth of his Department is taking to support the defence sector spending announcements in response to the pandemic in Scotland. [914679] up to the end of 2020. The Auditor General said that that left £2.7 billion unallocated. Does my hon. Friend The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr Alister Jack): agree that this highlights the need for transparency and The defence industry in Scotland is strong, thanks to scrutiny of Scottish Government spending, as people in sustained UK Government spending. My Department Scotland have a right to know how much money is being has a close, positive relationship with the industry and spent to help Scotland to deal with the pandemic? the UK armed forces in Scotland, including on the implementation of the recent integrated review: defence Iain Stewart: My hon. Friend is right to drawthe House’s Command Paper and the defence and security industrial attention to this alarming finding. People in Scotland strategy. want to know that the money that this Government have provided is reaching them and their businesses, Mark Menzies [V]: Shared expertise and infrastructure and it is of great concern that Audit Scotland has are key to supporting jobs across our United Kingdom, identified this shortfall. I absolutely agree that there must such as at Warton in my constituency and those north be maximum transparency on this matter. of the border at the BAE Systems site at Clyde. What estimates does my right hon. Friend make of the positive impact the UK Government’s defence manufacturing Free Trade Agreements has on job opportunities for the people of Scotland? RobinMillar(Aberconwy)(Con):Whatrecentdiscussions Mr Jack: The Royal Navy shipbuilding programme he has had with Cabinet colleagues on the potential will provide a pipeline of work and sustain valuable opportunities for Scotland arising from new free trade jobs and skills for shipyards around the United Kingdom, agreements. [914680] 365 Oral Answers 28 APRIL 2021 Oral Answers 366

The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr Alister Jack): The Prime Minister (): I know that the I regularly discuss with my Cabinet colleagues opportunities thoughts of Members across the House are with the for Scotland arising from the signing of trade deals. This people of India. We are supporting India with vital Government have already struck deals with 67 countries medical equipment and we will continue to work closely around the world worth £218 billion a year, including with the Indian authorities to determine what further with Canada, Japan and Singapore—with many more help they may need. tocome.ThiswillcreatenewmarketsforScotland’sexporters, I also welcome last week’s Court of Appeal decision including our world-leading food and drink sector. to overturn the convictions of 39 former sub-postmasters in the Horizon dispute—an appalling injustice. Sir Wyn Robin Millar: A new free trade agreement with Australia Williams is leading an ongoing independent inquiry is now in sight for the UK. Does my right hon. Friend that will report this summer. agree that this is a tremendous opportunity for exporters of agricultural products, and food and drink producers, This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues across Scotland and Wales? and others. In addition to my duties in this House, I will have further such meetings later today. Mr Jack: My hon. Friend is right about that and he is right to welcome the breakthroughs over the past few Andrea Jenkyns [V]: [Inaudible.] days with the Australian Government. Businesses in Scotland exported goods worth over £352 million to Mr Speaker: You are on mute, I think, Andrea. Australia in 2019, and reducing tariff barriers for our world-class food and drink industry could bolster Scotch Andrea Jenkyns: [Inaudible.] whisky exports to Australia. As the Secretary of State for International Trade made clear at the weekend, this Mr Speaker: Have you got the answer, Prime Minister? deal will be based on fair competition, maintaining our Tell us more about PMQs. I am sure the Prime Minister highstandardsandprovidingexcellent,excitingopportunities knows the answer. [Interruption.] We will try to come for British products. back to that question, and I will go to the Leader of the Scotland’s Constitutional Future Opposition, .

Neale Hanvey (Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath) (Alba): Keir Starmer (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab): I join What recent discussions he has had with the Scottish the Prime Minister in his remarks about the humanitarian Government on Scotland’s constitutional future. [914682] disaster we are witnessing in India. I know the UK has already committed some support, but given the scale The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland and gravity of the disaster, I hope the Foreign Secretary (Iain Stewart): The UK Government work with the Scottish will set out today what more the UK will do to help the Government on a daily basis on a range of constitutional Indian people in their hour of need. matters,includingdeliveringonourdevolutioncommitments I also join the Prime Minister in his remarks about through the Scotland Act order programme. I would the Post Office case—an ongoing injustice. Of course, have thought that a more interesting question would today is International Workers Memorial Day. This have been to ask what discussions his new party has had year, after all the sacrifices our frontline workers have with the First Minister on an unnecessary and divisive made during the pandemic, it is even more poignant further referendum on separation. than usual. I join in solidarity with all those mourning loved ones today. Neale Hanvey [V]: When Scotland opens negotiations for independence following the election of a supermajority It was reported this week, including in the Daily Mail on 6 May, will those talks be led by the Secretary of and by the BBC and ITV, backed up by numerous State or the Minister for the Union—should, of course, sources, that at the end of October the Prime Minister he still be in post by that time? said he would rather have “bodies pile high” than implement another lockdown. Can the Prime Minister Iain Stewart: The hon. Gentleman is being rather tell the House categorically, yes or no: did he make those presumptuous about the outcome of the elections next remarks or remarks to that effect? week, so let us wait and see what the people of Scotland decide. I would have thought they would be more The Prime Minister: No, Mr Speaker. The right hon. interested in keeping the protections of the pandemic in And learned Gentleman is a lawyer, I am given to place, helping businesses to recover and helping children understand, and I think that if he is going to repeat to catch up on the education that they have missed over allegations like that, he should come to this House and the past year. substantiate those allegations and say where he heard them and who exactly is supposed to have said those things. What I certainly can tell him—he asks about the October decisions—is that they were very bitter, very PRIME MINISTER difficult decisions, as they would be for any Prime Minister, because no one wants to put this country into The Prime Minister was asked— a lockdown, with all the consequences that means for loss of education, the damage to people’s life chances, Engagements and the huge medical backlog that it entails. But it was thanks to that lockdown—the tough decision that we Andrea Jenkyns (Morley and Outwood) (Con): If he took—and thanks to the heroic efforts of the British will list his official engagements for Wednesday 28 April. people that we have got through to this stage in the [914989] pandemic where we find ourselves rolling out our vaccine, 367 Oral Answers 28 APRIL 2021 Oral Answers 368 where we have done 50% of the population and 25% of flat. [Interruption.] Yes they did, tarting it up. I would the adult population have now had two doses. Lockdowns much rather help people get on the property ladder, and are miserable. Lockdowns are appalling things to have it is this Conservative Government who have built 244,000 to do. But I have to say that I believe that we had homes in the last year, which is a record over 30 years. absolutely no choice. This is a Government who get on with delivering on the people’s priorities, while he continually raises issues that Keir Starmer: Well, somebody here is not telling the most people would find irrelevant to their concerns. truth. The House will have heard the Prime Minister’s answer, and I remind him that the ministerial code says: Keir Starmer: The Prime Minister talks of priorities. “Ministers who knowingly mislead Parliament will be expected What is he spending his time doing? This is a Prime to offer their resignation”. Minister who, during the pandemic, was nipping out of I will leave it there for now. [HON.MEMBERS: “Ooh!] meetings to choose wallpaper at £840 a roll. Just last There will be further on this, believe you me. Who initially week, he spent his time phoning journalists to moan —and “initially” is the key word here—paid for the about his old friend Dominic Cummings. He is telling redecoration of his Downing Street flat? the civil service to find out who paid for the redecoration of his flat—the Cabinet Secretary has been asked to The Prime Minister: When it comes to misleading investigate who paid for the refurbishment of the flat. Parliament, the right hon. and learned Gentleman may Why doesn’t the Prime Minister just tell him? That would recollect that it was only a few weeks ago that he said be the end of the investigation. that he did not oppose this country leaving the European It has been widely reported that Lord Brownlow, who Medicines Agency—a fact that he was then forced to just happens to have been given a peerage by the retract—and that leaving the European Medicines Agency Conservative party, was asked to donate £58,000 to help was absolutely invaluable for our vaccine roll-out. Actually, pay for the cost of this refurbishment. Can the Prime it was just last week that he said that James Dyson was a Minister, if he is so keen to answer, confirm: did Lord personal friend of mine—a fact that James Dyson has Brownlow make that payment for that purpose? corrected in the newspaper this morning. As for the latest stuff that he is bringing up, he should know that I The Prime Minister: I think I have answered this paid for Downing Street refurbishment personally. Any question several times now, and the answer is that I have further declaration that I have to make—if any—I will covered the costs. I have met the requirements that I be advised upon by Lord Geidt. have been obliged to meet in full. When it comes to the The right hon. and learned Gentleman talks about taxpayer and the costs of No. 10 Downing Street, it was housing costs. The people of this country can make under the previous Labour Government that I think their own decision in just eight days’ time, because on Tony Blair racked up a bill of £350,000. I think what the average, Labour councils charge you £93 more in band D people of this country want to see is minimising taxpayer than Conservative councils, and Liberal Democrat councils expense. They want to see a Government who are focused charge you £120 more. That, I think, is the issue upon on their needs and delivering more homes for the people which the British people would like him to focus. of this country and cutting council tax, which is what we are doing. It is on that basis that I think people are going to judge our parties on 6 May. Keir Starmer: Normally when people do not want to incriminate themselves, they go, “No comment.” Let us explore this a bit further. Let me ask it a different way. Keir Starmer: Answer the question! That is what the This is the initial invoice, Prime Minister. Either the public scream at their televisions every PMQs: “Answer taxpayer paid the initial invoice, or it was the Conservative the question!” The Prime Minister has not answered the party, or it was a private donor, or it was the Prime question. He knows he has not answered the question. Minister. I am making it easy for the Prime Minister—it He never answers the question. is now multiple choice. There are only four options. It The Prime Minister will be aware that he is required should be easier than finding the chatty rat. I ask him to declare any benefits that relate to his political activities, again: who paid the initial invoice—the initial invoice, including loans or credit arrangements, within 28 days— PrimeMinister—fortheredecorationof thePrimeMinister’s [Interruption.] Twenty-eight days, Prime Minister, yes. flat? He will also know that any donation must be recorded in the register of Ministers’ interests, and that under the The Prime Minister: I have given the right hon. and law any donation of over £500 to a political party must learned Gentleman the answer, and the answer is that I be registered and declared, so the rules are very clear. have covered the costs.Of course,the Electoral Commission The Electoral Commission now thinks that there are is investigating this, and I can tell him that have I reasonable grounds to suspect that an offence or offences conformed in full with the code of conduct and the may have occurred. That is incredibly serious. ministerial code, and officials have been advising me Can the Prime Minister tell the House: does he believe throughout this whole thing. But I think people will that any rules or laws have been broken in relation to the find it absolutely bizarre that he is focusing on this refurbishment of the Prime Minister’s flat? issue, when what people want to know is what plans a Labour Government might have to improve the lives of The Prime Minister: No, I don’t. What I believe has people in this country. been strained to breaking point is the credulity of the The right hon. and learned Gentleman talks about public. The right hon. and learned Gentleman has half housing again. I would rather not spend taxpayers’ an hour every week to put serious and sensible questions money like the last Labour Government, who spent to me about the state of the pandemic, about the £500,000 of taxpayers’ money on the Downing Street vaccine roll-out, about what we are doing to support 369 Oral Answers 28 APRIL 2021 Oral Answers 370 our NHS, about what we are doing to fight crime, about taken to deliver this for our country, and will he join me what we are doing to bounce back from this pandemic, in thanking the many local volunteers, such as Kirsty about the economic recovery, about jobs for the people Griffiths who has been volunteering at the Marlow of this country, and he goes on and on about wallpaper vaccine centre, and Guy Hollis and Paul Bass who have when, as I have told him umpteen times now, I paid been volunteering alongside Denham community health for it. centre? And thank you for the vaccine roll-out in South Bucks. Keir Starmer: Can I remind the Prime Minister of the Nolan principles, which are meant to govern the behaviour of those in public office? They are these: selflessness, The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend should thank integrity, objectivity, accountability, openness, honesty everybody involved, and it has been a fantastic national and leadership. Instead, what do we get from this Prime effort, led by the NHS—led overwhelmingly by GPs, Minister and this Conservative Government? Dodgy but also by many others, including local council officers contracts, jobs for their mates and cash for access. And and officials and the Army, and of course huge numbers who is at the heart of it? The Prime Minister. Major Sleaze, of volunteers in her constituency and elsewhere, and I sitting there. thank Kirsty Griffiths, Guy Hollis and Paul Bass very much for everything they have done. Meanwhile—the Prime Minister talks about priorities— crime is going up, NHS waiting lists are at record levels and millions of people are worried about their jobs, Ian Blackford (Ross, Skye and Lochaber) (SNP) [V]: including at Liberty Steel. Do not the British people May I associate myself with the remarks of the Prime deserve a Prime Minister they can trust, not a Government Minister and the Leader of the Opposition on the who are mired in sleaze, cronyism and scandal? humanitarian crisis in India and the injustice in the Horizon issue at the Post Office? The Prime Minister: Last week, the right hon. and Over 127,000 people have died from covid in the learned Gentleman came to this Chamber and he attacked United Kingdom. People have lost their mothers and me for talking to James Dyson about ventilators, when fathers, their grandparents and even their children. we are now sending ventilators to help the people of NHS staff have given their all, fighting to keep people India, and the following day—the following day—Labour alive. That is why so many people find the Prime Minister’s Front Benchers said that any Prime Minister in my remark that he would rather let the bodies pile high in position would have done exactly the same thing. It was their thousands than go into lockdown utterly, utterly only a few months ago that they were actually attacking sickening. The BBC and ITV have multiple sources Kate Bingham, saying she was a crony when she helped confirming that this is what the Prime Minister said. to set up the vaccine taskforce that delivered millions of People are willing to go under oath confirming that the vaccines for the people of this country and is helping us Prime Minister said these exact words—under oath, to get out of the pandemic. Mr Speaker. Parliamentary rules stop me saying that This is a Government who are getting on with delivering the Prime Minister has repeatedly lied to the public over on the people’s priorities. We are rolling out many more the last week, but may I ask the question: are you a liar, nurses, with 10,000 more nurses in the NHS now than Prime Minister? there were this time last year, and 8,771 more police officers on our streets now than they were when I was elected, with tougher sentences for serious sexual and The Prime Minister: Mr Speaker, I leave it to you to violent criminals, which the right hon. and learned judge whether the right hon. Gentleman’s remarks were Gentleman opposed. And, by the way,I forgot to mention in order, but what I will say to him— it but last night our friends in the European Union voted to approve our Brexit deal, which he opposed. Mr Speaker: Order. Unfortunately, they were in order, That enables us not just to take back control of our but were not savoury and not what we would expect. borders, but to deliver free—[Interruption.] It does, which he fervently opposed, enabling us, among other The Prime Minister: I am grateful, Mr Speaker, but things, to deal with such threats as the European super what I would say to the right hon. Gentleman is that if league. It enables us to deliver freeports in places like he is going to relay that kind of quotation, it is up to Teesside. Above all, taking back control of our country him in a place like Parliament to produce the author—the has allowed us to deliver the fastest vaccine roll-out in person who claims to have heard it— because I cannot Europe, as he well knows, which would not have been find them. He says that they are willing to go on oath; possible if we had stayed in the European Medicines perhaps they are sitting somewhere in this building; I Agency, which he voted for. rather doubt it, because I did not say those words. Week after week, the people of this country can see the difference between a Labour party that twists and What I do believe is that a lockdown is a miserable, turns with the wind and thinks of nothing except playing miserable thing, and I did everything I could to try to political games, whereas this party gets on with delivering protect the British public throughout the pandemic—to on the people’s priorities, and I hope the people will protect them from lockdowns, but also to protect them vote Conservative on 6 May. [Interruption.] from disease. The right hon. Gentleman is right to draw attention to the wretched toll that covid has brought, Mr Speaker: Order. Let us see if we can calm it down and I know the whole House grieves for every family a little. that has lost a loved one. It has been a horrendous time, but it is thanks to that lockdown combined with the [914990] Joy Morrissey (Beaconsfield) (Con): The UK vaccine roll-out that we are making the progress we are, is indeed a world leader in covid-19 vaccination. May I and I may say that we are making progress across the thank the Prime Minister for the swift action he has whole of the United Kingdom. 371 Oral Answers 28 APRIL 2021 Oral Answers 372

Ian Blackford [V]: Thank you, Mr Speaker, and of chance to make a choice between, I am afraid, a continually course it is the Prime Minister’s behaviour which is not failing Welsh Labour Government or a Welsh Conservative in order. This is a Prime Minister who is up to his neck Administration in Cardiff who I believe have a fantastic in a swamp of Tory sleaze. We have seen contracts for vision: 65,000 high-skilled, high-paid jobs; finally addressing cronies, texts for tax breaks and cash for curtains. The the problems of the A55; 5,000 more teachers; getting Prime Minister has dodged these questions all week, 3,000 more nurses into the Welsh NHS; and solving the and he has dodged them again today, but these questions problems of the M4, which I have spoken about so simply are not going to go away.When exactly was money movingly many times in this Chamber. I hope that people funnelled through Tory HQ into his personal bank account, will avoid voting for Plaid Cymru and that they will when did he pay back this money, was it an interest-free vote for Welsh Conservatives on 6 May in Wales. loan, and who are the donor or donors who originally funded it? Is the Prime Minister aware that if he continues [914994] Duncan Baker (North Norfolk) (Con): As to fail to answer these questions, the Electoral Commission probably the only former sub-postmaster in Parliament, has the powers to prosecute him? Will the Prime Minister I know that last Friday’s ruling was the beginning, not publish these details today, or is he going to wait until the end. Yes, it will cost a lot of money, and yes, it will the police come knocking at his door? take time and more compensation is needed, but does the Prime Minister agree that only a proper, judge-led The Prime Minister: As I have said, I look forward to public inquiry can really bring justice to the victims of what the Electoral Commission has to say, but I can tell this horrendous accounting scandal and hold to account the right hon. Gentleman that, for the rest of it, he is those involved behind the scenes? talking complete nonsense. The only thing I will say is that it is thanks to our investment in policing that we The Prime Minister: I am grateful to my hon. Friend are going to have 20,000 more officers on the streets of for his expertise in this matter and thank him for what our country, which is fantastic, and we will be making he has just said, because he is totally right. What happened sure that that gets through to Scotland as well. What we to those Post Office workers—the postmasters and sub- want to see is a Scottish nationalist Government stopping postmasters—was appalling. It was one of the biggest obsessing about breaking up our country, which is all miscarriages of justice in our history, and we are indeed they can think and talk about, and instead talking looking at the issues involved. The former High Court about tackling crime and using that investment to fight judge Sir Wyn Williams will be making recommendations crime, which is what I think the people of Scotland want about what further actions—what further apologies—we to see. need to make. [914992] Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC) [V]: The PM just [914991] Gary Sambrook (Birmingham, Northfield) raised the matter of the Welsh general election. In (Con): If the Prime Minister was to walk down Bristol March last year, this United Kingdom Conservative Road South in Longbridge today, he would see a small Government intercepted a deal between Wales and the army of JCB diggers levelling out the old MG Rover Roche pharmaceutical company for 5,000 daily covid West Works site to provide one of the biggest levelling-up tests, instructing the company to projects locally, with 5,000 extra jobs and an industrial site. But people also want to see the regeneration of “reserve all additional Covid tests” Northfield High Street, with a proper plan and money to England. Those tests would have been crucial to on the table, so does the Prime Minister agree that we saving thousands of lives in Wales. As we go to the polls need people such as Andy Street—driven and energetic next week, will the Prime Minister tell us why Welsh Mayors—delivering for the , working with lives meant so little to him? me and local Conservative councillors to deliver on this The Prime Minister: I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman plan? After all, teamwork makes the dream work. is completely wrong in what he says about tests, but he The Prime Minister: I am lost in admiration for what is right about one thing, which is that Wales has made Andy Street is doing. He is a fantastic Mayor of the an amazing contribution to our national fightback—our West Midlands and he has a fantastic vision for transport, UK fightback—against covid. It was incredible again to jobs, growth and recovery. I hope everybody votes for go to the Wockhardt factory in Wrexham. It is Wockhardt, Andy Street on 6 May. working together with Oxford Biomedica, that has enabled us to roll out the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine that has Mr Speaker: Let us go to Liz Saville Roberts. made such a difference. I want to say a massive thank you, again, to those Welsh scientists and all those Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC) [V]: people working in that factory, because they have helped Diolch yn fawr, Llefarydd. I think it is worth repeating to save countless lives across the UK. the ministerial code’s seven guiding principles: selflessness, integrity, objectivity, accountability, openness, honesty [914996] Laura Farris (Newbury) (Con): The integrated and leadership. The Prime Minister has spent the week review confirms the vital role that the Atomic Weapons ticking them off his “don’t do” list. At the same time, Establishment in Berkshire will play in our future nuclear he tries to play down allegations that he said “let the capability. I want to pay tribute to the establishment, bodies pile high”. Given that the sole judge on questions particularly the senior female employees who have won a relating to the conduct of Ministers and the conduct of slew of national awards for their work in defence science, the Prime Minister is the Prime Minister himself, what engineering and nuclear security.Given the Government’s happens when a Prime Minister goes rogue? significant investment in all those sectors, will my right hon. Friend say how he plans to improve women’s The Prime Minister: The people of this country have participation in these fields, where historically they have the chance to make up their own minds on 6 May. When been underrepresented, and may I invite him to the they look at what is happening in Wales, they have a AWE to illustrate our success? 373 Oral Answers 28 APRIL 2021 Oral Answers 374

The Prime Minister: I would be honoured to take up The Prime Minister: I tell you what, Mr Speaker, I my hon. Friend’s invitation as soon as I can. In terms of think it is because people are absolutely determined to female representation in that sector, she will know that find anything they can hang on to talk about, except the Alison Atkinson became the chief executive officer and vaccine roll-out, except our plans to unite and level up managing director of AWE in May 2020, and there are across the country, except our plans to fight crime and huge numbers of opportunities for women to join our give people the opportunity to buy their own homes; armed services, thanks above all to the biggest uplift in because they do not want to discuss those issues, because defence spending since the end of the cold war. they cannot win on those issues, because they have absolutely nothing to say, and that is what has become [914993] Sarah Olney (Richmond Park) (LD): I welcome clear over the last year. the Prime Minister’s commitment last week to include aviation and shipping in our emissions target, but surely [915001] Nick Fletcher (Don Valley) (Con) [V]: Before I he knows that we will miss that target if we proceed ask my question, may I first ask the Prime Minister to with a third runway at Heathrow, and, furthermore, that join me in thanking all the staff at Doncaster Royal that would undermine the progress that the Government Infirmary and the emergency services for dealing hope to make towards net zero. Will he therefore take swiftly with a major water leak yesterday? Fortunately, this opportunity to commit to amending the airports no one was hurt and all patients have been moved national policy statement in the light of those commitments? safely to other wards. However, to return to my original question, local elections are only days away, so will the Prime Minister offer his full support to the Doncaster The Prime Minister: The third runway at Heathrow, Conservative mayoral candidate, James Hart? Like me, as the hon. Lady knows, is a private sector venture, and James is a local businessman and will shout out for it is up to them to produce the capital to do it. I do not our town and work closely with me on delivering the see any immediate sign of that particular project coming Government’s levelling-up agenda. off. I think what we should look at instead, and what we are looking at, is the prospect of jet-zero aviation and flying without emissions,or with far lower carbon emissions. The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely It is in that area that the Department for Business, right. [Interruption.] Hang on. He is right to want to Energy and Industrial Strategy and the Department for thank all the staff of Doncaster Royal Infirmary for Transport are working together with manufacturers so what they did for the emergency services in dealing that this country leads in guilt-free flying. with the incident last night, and I am glad to take the opportunity to do that. I am also glad to take the opportunity to support him in his campaign for James [914998] Stephen Crabb (Preseli Pembrokeshire) (Con): Hart. I do hope that the people of Doncaster will go Right now, in every part of the country, levels of out to vote and support him on 6 May. business optimism are higher than they have been since the start of the pandemic, with many firms planning to [914997] Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab): hire more staff and create more apprenticeships for our The Prime Minister promised in a series of texts to young people. There is one factor, more than anything “fix” a tax issue for his mate Sir James Dyson. At the else, that underpins that optimism—the success of the Dispatch Box last week, the Prime Minister promised to UK vaccination programme. Does my right hon. Friend publish those texts, but of course he has not made good agree that there has never been a more important moment on that promise. When will he publish them? for voters in Scotland and Wales to reject the negativity and divisiveness of the nationalists, and instead look The Prime Minister: I promised to publish the account forward to a brighter and stronger future as one United of my dealings with James Dyson, which is exactly what Kingdom? I have done. I cannot believe that the Opposition do not learn their lesson. They attacked the Government last The Prime Minister: Absolutely. I do not know why week for having any kind of discussions with a potential the Leader of the Opposition’s PPS, the hon. Member British ventilator maker, and the following day they did for Swansea East (Carolyn Harris), is shaking her head, a U-turn and said that any Prime Minister would do it. because surely she would agree with that. We want to They have now done a W-turn, and they are trying to work together across the whole of the UK, and I pay bash me again. Which is it? Do they believe the Government tribute, as I have just said, to the incredible work of the should be supporting British manufacturing in delivering Wockhardt factory in Wales, but there is also the Valneva ventilators—yes or no? That is the question for Labour. factory in Scotland, and the whole of the United Kingdom coming together, represented by our armed services [915002] Dr Luke Evans (Bosworth) (Con) [V]: My and, above all, by our NHS helping to deliver that vaccine constituency is best known for the battle of Bosworth, roll-out to protect the country and take it forward. but we also have many other attractions, such as Twycross zoo, Mallory Park racecourse, Burbage common and [914995] Janet Daby (Lewisham East) (Lab) [V]: It is Thornton reservoir. These attractions all support superb absolutely shocking that we have heard that the cafes and pubs. With the bank holiday weekend coming Electoral Commission is investigating funding of the up, does the Prime Minister have any plans, and does he Prime Minister’s Downing Street flat, saying that there want to pop up to Bosworth? More importantly, what are are the Government doing to support these attractions and domestic tourism as we go into the summer? “reasonable grounds to suspect…an offence”. Why does the Prime Minister think that all these stories The Prime Minister: I thank my hon. Friend. No matter about sleaze, corruption and dishonesty keep happening how many pints I joined him in lifting in the pubs of to him and his Conservative Government? Bosworth, it could not do as much for the economy of 375 Oral Answers 28 APRIL 2021 Oral Answers 376

Bosworth as what we are already doing with the £56 million of legislative freedoms that we now have thanks to leaving welcome back fund, which is probably even more welcome the European Union, which the right hon. and learned than my presence in Bosworth, I venture to suggest—that Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Keir Starmer) is hotly contested, perhaps. We have extended the cut in opposed, of course. Weacted decisively to make clear that VAT for tourism and hospitality to 5% right the way the UK Government took a dim view of this matter. through until the end of September. [Interruption.] And the same goes for my chief of staff.

[914999] Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab) Siobhan Baillie (Stroud) (Con): My constituency of [V]: Is not the truth behind all of this—the sleaze, the Stroud recently won the title of best place to live. There scandals, the jobs for your mates, the cash for curtains is much to visit there, including an historic lamp standard —that the Prime Minister thinks that rules, laws and that was erected to celebrate Queen Victoria’s diamond decency are for other people? He thinks they are for the jubilee. Next year, our own Queen will mark 70 years sort of people who shop at John Lewis, Ikea or Argos since her accession to the throne. Will the Prime Minister and who do not have wealthy donors to fund their join me in supporting the gift being proposed by Parliament lifestyles, not for people like him and his Ministers. to mark Her Majesty’s platinum jubilee? The Prime Minister: I think that what people think is The Prime Minister: I thank my hon. Friend for that that the Labour party is losing all the arguments across wonderful proposal, and I certainly encourage all colleagues British politics, that it has nothing to say, and that it has to support and contribute to her project. no plan for our future and no vision for our country. People see a Conservative Government who are getting Mr Speaker: We are going back to Andrea Jenkyns. on with uniting and levelling up, with the most ambitious agenda any Government have had for generations, and I think that is what they are listening to. Andrea Jenkyns [V]: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Next week, we will elect our first Mayor of West Yorkshire. [915003] Ben Bradley (Mansfield) (Con) [V]: Next week, Does the Prime Minister agree that for far too long residents here in Nottinghamshire will go out to vote for Labour has taken our northern heartlands for granted? the first time since that incredibly successful 2019 election, On Thursday 6 May, we have the opportunity to elect where they elected a broad slate of Conservative MPs patriotic, hard-working northerners such as Matt Robinson, across every constituency in this county. Despite that Ben Houchen, and Jill Mortimer in Hartlepool. They success, many areas, such as Mansfield, in much of the will be strong voices and champions for infrastructure, new blue wall across the midlands and the north still housing and jobs. We must seize the chance to build have mainly Labour councillors at a local level. Does my back better after the pandemic, and only the Conservatives right hon. Friend have a message for Nottinghamshire will deliver on that. [Interruption.] voters, who have the opportunity next week to elect a Conservative local team who can work with our MPs to The Prime Minister: Well, Mr Speaker, they don’t like deliver for Nottinghamshire? that sort of thing, do they? They don’t like focusing on the issues that actually matter to the British people and The Prime Minister: I do, and I thank my hon. Friend the people of West Yorkshire. for all the wonderful work that he does for his constituency. My message would be, yes, I hope that the people of I thank my hon. Friend, who is absolutely right. Nottinghamshire will get out and vote Conservative. It I hope that on 6 May the people will get out and vote is we who share their priorities on crime, on the NHS, for a party that believes in supporting our NHS; that on investment in infrastructure and on levelling up believes in fighting crime, not being soft on crime; and across our country, so I hope they will vote Conservative that will bring jobs and regeneration across the country. on 6 May. I hope that they will vote Conservative on 6 May.

[915000] Rachel Hopkins (Luton South) (Lab) [V]: Mr Speaker: I am suspending the House for a few When were the Prime Minister and his chief of staff first minutes to enable the necessary arrangements for the made aware of the plan for a European super league? next business. The Prime Minister: I first was made aware of the 12.36 pm plan for a European super league on, I think, the Sitting suspended. Sunday night, and we acted decisively using the arsenal 377 28 APRIL 2021 Government Support for India 378

Government Support for India meeting next week. Subject to the covid-19 situation in India, there may also be an opportunity for the Prime Minister to visit in person later in the year. 12.41 pm We stand with the Indian people in this time of need, Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab) (Urgent Question): To ask taking our lead from what the Indian Government the Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and advise us is most useful. We face this pandemic together Development Affairs if he will make a statement on the and the UK will continue to support global efforts to support the Government are providing to the Indian overcome the grave challenges that we all face today. Government. Lisa Nandy: The domestic tragedy engulfing India is The Minister for Asia (): The heartbreaking now of such a scale that it constitutes a global emergency. scenes in India in recent days have shocked us all. The India is now afflicted with at least 40% of all new cases pandemic has brought horrific human suffering, and we in the world. More than 2 million have been confirmed send our solidarity and condolences to the Indian people in the last week alone and the peak of this crisis may yet at this difficult time. As the Prime Minister has said, we be weeks away. This surely ought to be a priority for the stand side by side with India as a friend and partner in Foreign Secretary, who I expected to have made a the fight against covid-19. statement to this House as the scale of the crisis became The Foreign Secretary spoke with his counterpart, clear over the last 10 days. Minister for External Affairs Jaishankar, on 26 April. For more than 1 million Britons with loved ones in He emphasised the UK’s commitment to provide urgent India, this is a moment of fear and anxiety. The ties medical equipment to support our Indian friends at this between our countries are woven into the fabric of this difficult time. Ministers and officials are in close contact nation—something that, through my own heritage, I am with their counterparts in the Indian Government to personally and acutely aware of. Many Britons of Indian follow up on that commitment. The Government of origin will have gone to work today in our NHS and in India told us that oxygen has been a particular challenge, our care homes, helping to carry us through this crisis, so we have moved quickly to provide a package of while desperately worried about loved ones in India. We urgent medical equipment to address that need. The first can and must do more. shipment, of 200 ventilators and 95 oxygen concentrators, Can I hear from the Minister today a clear plan to arrived in India in the early hours yesterday, and is ramp up the delivery of vital equipment? I welcome the already being distributed to Indian hospitals. A further 600 pieces of equipment that we have shipped so far, but 400 oxygen concentrators will follow today and tomorrow. he will know through his discussions, as I do, that India This equipment will boost oxygen supplies in India’s is still badly short of oxygen cylinders, concentrators, hospitals, which remain under severe pressure, so there ventilators and therapeutic drugs, especially remdesivir. is no doubt that the support provided by the United He must co-ordinate with our global partners. I spoke Kingdom will save lives. to the EU ambassador this morning to discuss how we I am pleased that other countries are also responding can avoid duplication and get help quickly to where it is to India’s needs. The pandemic has shown the importance most needed. Has the UK been part of discussions at of international action. No one is safe until everyone is the UN and with the World Health Organisation? The safe, so we will keep working closely with the Indian Minister needs a plan for increasing the production and Government to help them to meet the huge challenge manufacturing capacity for vaccines and to overcome they face, and we will continue to show our solidarity barriers to expanding supply. I was surprised not to with the Indian people. hear a commitment to make good on the Health Secretary’s This response is just a part of the UK’s wider promise to throw open our unique expertise to the world. international effort to tackle the pandemic. The United We are world leaders in genomic sequencing and Kingdom has committed up to £1.3 billion of official epidemiology.Tracking mutations and variants would be development assistance funding to address the health, a major contribution not just to India, but to the world. economic and humanitarian impacts of covid-19. We It is now almost a year to the day when the UK, have been at the forefront of efforts to get vaccines to steeped in our own crisis, woefully unprepared for the developing countries—we are one of the largest donors pandemic, was forced to ask the world for help. It was to the COVAX advanced market commitment, created India who stepped forward and approved the export of to do just that. Our commitment of £548 million will 3 million packets of paracetamol in an act of solidarity support the distribution of 1.3 billion doses of vaccines and friendship. There are millions of people in India, to up to 92 low and middle-income countries; this includes around the world and here in the UK for whom this is India. really a test of the bond between our two nations. I Despite the urgency of the current situation in India, heard what the Minister said. I thank him for his warm this remains an important year in the UK-India relationship. words, but words are not enough. Now is the time to India is a key partner for the UK and the Prime step forward with a real plan of action to tackle this Minister had planned to visit India this week. Regretfully, domestic tragedy and this global emergency. he had to postpone due to the covid-19 outbreak. He now has plans to speak to Prime Minister Modi via Nigel Adams: I thank the hon. Lady for her questions. video link in the coming period to take forward key The Foreign Secretary may very well have answered this deliverables across trade, defence, climate change, health question today, but he is in Geneva speaking to the UN, and migration. We also look forward to the Prime so he is out of the country. Minister meeting Prime Minister Modi as the UK hosts The hon. Lady makes some good points, particularly the G7 summit in June and to welcoming India’s guest on the co-operation we saw from the Indian people and participation in the G7 foreign and development ministerial the Indian Government specifically around drugs last year. 379 Government Support for India28 APRIL 2021 Government Support for India 380

[Nigel Adams] country? Furthermore, will the UK Government support a waiver to overcome intellectual property barriers, so Weare very thankful for the support we had in that regard. that developing countries have much-needed access to She references words, not deeds. I think what we have vaccines and we do not see what is happening in India seen over the weekend is deeds, not words. We were the replicated elsewhere? Finally, given the need for a fully first country to deliver support to the Indian people. In resourced global vaccine roll-out, will the Government fact, it is absolutely the case—this has been described finally listen to the experts and retreat from the proposed by the BBC, no less—that the UK has been commended cut to the UK’s life-saving aid at this critical time? for the speed of its initial package. The BBC described it as Nigel Adams: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his “the first international shipment aimed at stemming a devastating questions. It is clear that we have been at the forefront Covid-19 surge.” of efforts to get vaccines to developing countries— I am not entirely sure how much quicker we could have I cannot think of many countries that have done more. I been. We have been working on this late last week and have mentioned the advance market commitment via over the weekend. I would like to thank staff across our COVAX. That was created to deliver exactly that. We networks and in the Department of Health and Social will be supporting the distribution of 1.3 billion doses Care for all the work they have done in putting together of vaccines to up to 92 low-income and middle-income this package. Instead of talking, we were shipping and countries—that includes India. Obviously, we will need delivering these vital pieces of equipment there, and to complete our own roll-out and we will be looking at there is more equipment and support to come. We are what we do if there are any surplus doses available. We continuing to speak with the Indian Government on what will keep that under constant review. But I am proud of they require, and we will respond to what their requirements our commitments: the £548 million, and leading last are in very short order. year’s international funding conference on vaccines to help protect those who need our assistance. Tom Tugendhat (Tonbridge and Malling) (Con) [V]: Yesterday, I had the great privilege of speaking to my Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) Indian opposite number, who expressed great gratitude (Lab) [V]: As it is in the UK, the impact of covid in for the UK’s contribution to support the Indian people, India is a human tragedy. I heard from a family friend in and I was very pleased that he said so. However, India is Delhi who says that people are terrified, frantically not the only country with which we have a living bridge looking for beds and oxygen, with disgraceful profiteering and a common feeling. We need to make sure that ramping up prices and making support unaffordable for we are prepared to support other countries in the the poor. As we have heard, nearly half of all global Commonwealth, not just for their benefit, but for ours. covid cases are now in India, and nowhere in the world Can the Minister assure me that we are ready, that we is safe until we are all safe, so it is absolutely right that have the ODA budget available and that we are prepared the UK has provided ventilators and oxygen, but there to act should such a pool of infection arise in any other are also issues with vaccination logistics and therapeutic country, particularly one with which we share such a supplies. Can I ask what the Minister knows about how close link? Kashmiris in Indian-administered Kashmir are faring, given that there has been no opportunity for an independent Nigel Adams: I thank my hon. Friend, the Chairman visit to the region by parliamentarians or journalists of the Select Committee, for that question. Of course, since the revocation of articles 370 and 35A nearly two we are speaking with our international partners on a years ago? regular basis. This is a situation where no one is safe until everybody is safe. We are working collaboratively Nigel Adams: I am not the Minister responsible for and a good example of that is vaccines. We are one of those particular countries, but we have regular dialogue. the biggest contributors to the vaccine programme, the My noble Friend Lord Ahmad, the Minister responsible COVAX programme, which has been set up particularly for that region, speaks regularly with representatives to support countries in this regard. We will continue to from Pakistan and India, and I am happy to ask him to do whatever we need to do to support our international give the hon. Lady an update. partners. What we had to do, because of the pressing emergency in India, which is one of our closest allies, was Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) react quickly and get the equipment into the planes and (Con) [V]: Many of us have constituents who are deeply on to the ground, and that is exactly what we have done. worried about loved ones in India. Please will my hon. Friend reassure them that the Foreign Secretary will Chris Law (Dundee West) (SNP) [V]: The scenes we continue to engage with the Indian Government on the have all seen emerging from India are truly tragic and practical help that is needed and how we can provide it? our hearts go out to all those who are suffering. There is nothing more tragic than seeing people dying on pavements Nigel Adams: My right hon. Friend is absolutely right: outside already overstretched and under-resourced hospitals in the past few days, my right hon. Friend the Foreign that are full of covid patients, and dead loved ones being Secretary has spoken directly with Foreign Minister lined up for cremation. Sadly, we must recognise that Jaishankar on exactly that issue. We are responding to the scenes in India will not be the last of the devastation the Indian Government’s requests and listening to what of covid that we see, and the UK must step up its efforts, they are telling us. We were the first country to respond not just in India, but across the world. and to get wheels on the ground and deliver equipment. It is welcome that the UK has been able to offer some A huge emergency is affecting India and we have responded. support to India, but what assistance is being provided We will continue to speak to the Indian Government on vaccines to prevent further covid waves across the and see what further assistance we can deliver to them. 381 Government Support for India28 APRIL 2021 Government Support for India 382

Scott Benton (Blackpool South) (Con): Given the first to respond. We are providing the life-saving medical exceptional budgetary challenges that face the Treasury, equipment that he refers to, which includes 495 oxygen the overwhelming majority of my constituents support concentrators and 200 ventilators. That equipment is the decision to temporarily reduce the foreign aid budget. basedonthemostacuteneed,whichhasbeencommunicated Of course, we will still be spending more money on to us by the Indian Government. I understand why international aid than nearly every other nation on people are so passionate about this, and this simply will earth, allowing us to support nations in their hour of help to save the lives of the most vulnerable in India. need. Nine airline containers full of life-saving equipment have already been shipped out to India. Will my hon. Tonia Antoniazzi (Gower) (Lab): Given that the Friend confirm that he will continue to engage with the population of India is 1.3 billion and the country is Indian Government to provide any further assistance as currently recording more than 320,000 new covid infections required? every day, does the Minister agree with a senior Indian health official who described the support that has been Nigel Adams: My hon. Friend is right to point out the received so far as a “drop in the ocean”? support that we have already delivered to our Indian friends. Our teams worked round the clock and over the Nigel Adams: We have been first out of the blocks. weekend to ensure that that first shipment of 200 ventilators We have provided from surplus stocks the ventilators and 95 oxygen concentrators arrived in India yesterday and the oxygen concentrators. Of course, it is a huge morning. As I said, we were the first to deliver support country, which is why we continue to liaise with the to India. Given the rapidly changing situation on the Indian Government to see what further we can do. We ground, we are working closely with our counterparts are going to be doing more in terms of equipment, but to ensure that we are co-ordinated, and we are in close we have responded quicker than anybody else. We have contact with the Indian Government in respect of anything planes on the ground delivering equipment. There are else that they need. more planes going out there today and tomorrow with Layla Moran (Oxford West and Abingdon) (LD) [V]: more equipment, and we will continue to work with the What is happening in India is an absolute tragedy, but it Indian Government, listen to their requests and respond. is also a stark warning that this virus thrives when we relax—after all, many in India thought that they had Karl McCartney (Lincoln) (Con): Our special relationship beaten the virus. Every time a surge happens, the virus with India is a bond of kinship and affinity rooted in mutates faster, and with every mutation our collective the living bridge that is the Indian diaspora. As we now fight goes back a step. There is only one way to beat this seek a transformative post-Brexit UK-India relationship, virus, and that is to work together in lockstep, across it is only right that the Government are taking the the global community, to keep cases low, minimise the initial steps to assist India at this unprecedented time. It risk of new variants and vaccinate. Will the Minister has been heartening to see 1 billion shoulders to the now commit not only to increasing the money that the wheel, be it the Oxygen Express run by the railways or UK gives to COVAX—as much as that is, we need to do the Indian air force flying back empty oxygen tanks for more—but to starting to share vaccine doses through Indian industry to refill, which has risen to the desperate COVAX now, today? need. France and Germany have managed to rapidly assist India significantly with the supply of cryogenic Nigel Adams: The hon. Lady is right to ask about oxygen tanks, which can store and transport a much vaccine doses, but right now we are moving through the bigger quantity of liquid oxygen. Can my hon. Friend UK prioritisation list—that is what the country would say what steps our Government have taken or are taking expect us to do, I think—for our domestic roll-out and to assist similarly, befitting our vision for the UK-India we do not currently have surplus doses. We do, though, relationship that we seek to build? keep the situation under constant review. Of course, I recognise that with this pandemic no one is safe until we Nigel Adams: I thank my hon. Friend for that point. I are all safe; that is why I am proud that, despite the am not particularly aware of the arrangement that challenging financial pressures that the pandemic has France and Germany have and whether that is a commercial brought, the United Kingdom has donated more than arrangement that the Indian Government have entered half a billion pounds to COVAX. Weled the international into, but it is certainly something we can look into. We vaccinefundingconferencelastyear,andineveryconversation have been working incredibly closely with our technical that my colleagues and I, as a Foreign Minister, have, we experts in the Department of Health and Social Care are encouraging our counterparts around the globe to on how to respond to the most urgent needs, while do the same and to contribute to COVAX. ensuring that the equipment sent can be used and will Mr Gagan Mohindra (South West Hertfordshire) (Con) make a difference. Donating oxygen cylinders, as some [V]: As someone who has family in India, it breaks my people have called for, has been rejected, as compatibility heart to see what is happening there. Some of the most issues would prevent them from being refilled within worrying stories coming out of India have been reports India. Weare taking the lead from the Indian Government of a lack of available oxygen for patients in need. Can on what their most urgent priorities are, so that we can my hon. Friend confirm that a key portion of the ensure that whatever support we provide matches their equipment that our Government are delivering is made requests. up of the oxygen concentrators and ventilators that are so desperately needed? Dr Philippa Whitford (Central Ayrshire) (SNP) [V]: The Minister keeps repeating that no one is safe until Nigel Adams: My hon. Friend speaks from the heart. everyone is safe, but the reality is that 80% of all covid As I have said, I want to thank the teams in the FCDO vaccines have been delivered in just 10 wealthy countries, around the globe for working on this. We have been the and COVAX is struggling to obtain vaccines. Unless 383 Government Support for India28 APRIL 2021 Government Support for India 384

[Dr Philippa Whitford] Friend’s statement about the equipment that we have provided and the speed at which we have done so. there is greater international solidarity, other healthcare Obviously, India is a vastly different size to the UK, but systems like India’s will collapse, and vaccine-resistant if it is wanted, will we also provide logistical advice variants will inevitably threaten those who live here. from the NHS, the Army and our scientists on the Does the Minister not accept that the UK needs to play things they have learned about how to best control the its part by lifting the ban on exporting vaccines, sharing spread of this virus and get vaccinations to people as covid technology with others and increasing, rather quickly as possible? than slashing, overseas aid? Nigel Adams: My hon. Friend makes a very good Nigel Adams: I cannot think of many countries that point. We stand ready to provide support in whatever are doing more than the United Kingdom on vaccines form it comes. That is why we are talking to the Indian for the international community. It was absolutely right Government, asking them what support they require. that we moved through the United Kingdom’s vaccine We need to do that not only to understand what they priority list for our own roll-out, and, as I have said in require, but to ensure that what they require and what answer to a previous question, there are currently no we supply are in lockstep. Given this spread of the surplus doses. I am proud of the fact that we are one of pandemic, we are working closely not only with our the biggest donors to COVAX. COVAX will be supporting Indian counterparts, but with other countries to ensure the distribution of 1.3 billion vaccines across 92 countries that we can co-ordinate and support those with the most that need that support, which includes India. urgent need. Sir Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): May I express strong solidarity with my hon. Friend in his Mr Khalid Mahmood (Birmingham, Perry Barr) (Lab) words of sympathy with our Indian friends? Would it be [V]: I commend the support that the Government are possible for Indian citizens, who are living here in the providing promptly to the Indian people during this United Kingdom, to travel to India should they so wish, devastating covid surge, and my thoughts and prayers so that they can help their grieving relatives or provide are with all those affected. Realistically, in order to other support? It would surely be unreasonable to prevent tackle this issue, do we not need to start providing people leaving our country who wish to go and help in licences particularly for those countries on the subcontinent, these circumstances. where in India, Pakistan and Bangladesh there are almost 2 billion people who could be dealt with by giving them Nigel Adams: Of course, I absolutely get the point the ability to produce vaccines themselves and therefore that my hon. Friend has made. People will be incredibly better look after themselves and help to reduce the worried. I have friends with Indian heritage and they effects of covid very quickly? Will the Minister look at are at their wit’s end about what is happening in India. supporting the people of Kashmir, who have been under As for travelling to India, he will be aware that we did lockdown because of the situation in India for the past add India to our red list. That was to ensure that we 18 months, so that they receive their fair proportion of protect against variants and other developing variants. the aid and the vaccines that we are supporting them The situation in India has deteriorated. Currently, travel with? abroad is against the law and, until that situation changes, people in the UK need to be mindful of the travel Nigel Adams: The hon. Gentleman makes a good advice. point. Weare providing support to the Indian Government, but it is for the Indian Government to decide and not Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab) for us to dictate where that support goes or how it is [V]: I have spoken to people at Newcastle’s Hindu rolled out. Of course, as he will know, India is one of temple who have emphasised just how distressing these the largest manufacturers of vaccine, and those supplies desperate scenes from India are for those with friends are under pressure, as they are with all manufacturers. and family living there and, indeed, for all of us. We However, we will continue liaising with the Indian have known of the concerns for some time now. That is Government to find out what they require, and if we why the Prime Minister cancelled his visit. Given our can match their demands we will supply it. special links to India, what conversations has the Minister had with counterparts in the United States and the European Union to ensure that international assistance (Harrow East) (Con) [V]: I congratulate is co-ordinated and effective? my hon. Friend and the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office on their offer of help and the Nigel Adams: That is a very good question. We are provision that has been made to the Indian Government. regularly in contact with our counterparts, co-ordinating He will know that at a time of humanitarian crisis, the support. That is why COVAX was set up in the first people of this country are incredibly generous. Members place for vaccines. I understand that the EU is in the of the Indian diaspora, in particular, are conducting process of co-ordinating support for this emergency. I fundraising events via temples and other religious places am not entirely sure when its shipments will arrive, but across the country this weekend, including the world-famous it is certainly on the case, as is the United States, but rest Neasden temple, where people are doing a sponsored assured we do speak to our international partners when static bike ride of 7,600 km—the distance between an emergency such as this flares up. London and New Delhi. What advice is being given to those religious organisations who are raising money to David Johnston (Wantage) (Con): I think that everyone make sure the money gets to the right place at the right in the country has been distressed by the images of the time to assist in alleviating the suffering going on in reports they have seen in India. I welcome my hon. India? 385 Government Support for India28 APRIL 2021 Government Support for India 386

Nigel Adams: There are many champions of constituents Zarah Sultana (Coventry South) (Lab) [V]: The images of Indian heritage in this House, none more so than my from India are horrifying—from people gasping for air hon. Friend. I am being made aware of some incredible and dying—[Inaudible]—with hospitals overrun, to seas fundraising efforts across the country where there are of blazing makeshift pyres. This is a human catastrophe large Indian diasporas, with people raising money through for India, and, with a virus that does not respect borders, various means. That is really heartwarming to see. It is none of us is safe until we are all safe. Vaccine supply is absolutely the case that that needs to be delivered in the artificially limited by patents, leading to the global vaccine most efficient way.I will find out through what mechanism apartheid. At the Word Trade Organisation, India and the advice is being filtered down to those communities. South Africa have proposed a temporary waiver to vaccine He raises a brilliant point, as ever, and I will make sure patents,allowing production—[Inaudible]—expand. Public that by the end of today he is able to have some money funded these vaccines, so will the Government information to take to his communities to ensure that put public health before the profits of big pharma and they are doing the right thing. I am sure that everybody support a waiver of the vaccine patents? is doing the right thing; we just have to make sure that it is delivered in the correct way. Nigel Adams: The audio was a bit in and out there, but I think I got the gist of the hon. Lady’s question. As Steven Bonnar (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) I have said several times in my response, we are doing an (SNP): Only last week I stood here and questioned this immense amount. We are at the forefront of efforts to Tory Government’s obscene betrayal of those in need ensure that vaccines are getting to the most vulnerable by cutting the foreign aid budget. This week we have countries—to developing countries—as well as being, I perhaps seen the direct consequences of such decisions. think, the second or third largest donor to the COVAX I am sure that, along with every Member, they agree programme. I gently remind the hon. Lady that that with me that the scenes from India are nothing short of support will assist 1.3 billion people in low and middle- devastating and we cannot stand idly by while oxygen income countries across the globe, including India, becomes a premium and not an easily obtainable necessity. where we have seen such horrific scenes; our hearts are Given the severity of the situation, will the Minister with them. now go on record to say that the UK Government will undertake any and every possible measure of support Marco Longhi (Dudley North) (Con): Does the Minister for India and her people,including the potential distribution agree that the coronavirus pandemic has demonstrated of vaccines when we are in a position to do so? more than ever before the absolute need for strong and reliable partners, especially in the interconnected world Nigel Adams: I agree with the hon. Gentleman’s in which we all live? Will he confirm that the Prime sentiments, apart from his first sentence, which was a Minister will, in fact, be visiting India as soon as the mild dig. We will continue to support India. We were country recovers from this dreadful outbreak? the first country to do so when this crisis flared up. We were not talking about it; we were actually getting on with it and doing it, delivering ventilators and oxygen Nigel Adams: My hon. Friend raises a good point. concentrators: there are more in the air now and they The irony is that the Prime Minister would have been in aregoingtolandtodayandtomorrow.Sowearecontinuing India had it not been for this latest outbreak. I know to do that work. In terms of vaccines, it would be great if that he will be speaking to Prime Minister Modi shortly he could point me to who is doing more, as I said, in via video link. We want to ensure that we continue that terms of putting more money into COVAXthat is going co-operation on trade, defence, climate change and to help 1.3 billion people. The priority, obviously, is the health, which is absolutely key. We want to finalise a domestic roll-out of the vaccines that we have, and once 2030 road map for future India-UK relations that will we have a clear idea of surplus, we will be in a position to provide a strategic basis for our relationship in the support other countries. coming years. We look forward to the Prime Minister meeting Prime Minister Modi as soon as practically Jane Stevenson (Wolverhampton North East) (Con) possible. Depending on how the pandemic goes in India, [V]: So many of my fellow Wulfrunians have friends, there may be an opportunity for the Prime Minister to family and other loved ones in India. I thank the visit in person later this year. Government for their swift response to this heartbreaking situation. What discussions is my hon. Friend having Navendu Mishra (Stockport) (Lab) [V]: I thank my with our international partners, so that we can encourage hon. Friend the Member for Wigan (Lisa Nandy) for them to send similar assistance and ensure that the securing this urgent question. I have family in India global effort is as effective as possible? and, like others, I have found the news from the country quite distressing. Do the Government believe that people Nigel Adams: My hon. Friend makes a very good in low and middle-income countries should have fair point. All hon. and right hon. Members today are and timely access to life-saving covid vaccines and speaking up passionately for their constituents in their drugs? If so, are the Government willing to reverse their particular areas. Co-operation on an international level position on opposing the proposal from India and is absolutely at the heart of responding to this pandemic. South Africa of a patent waiver in relation to covid It is a pandemic that obviously does not recognise vaccines, medicines and medical equipment at the World borders, so we have been speaking directly with the Trade Organisation? Indian Government to understand what they need. As I said, we are in regular contact with a range of international Nigel Adams: I can tell the hon. Gentleman that we partners to ensure that we support, co-ordinate and do agree that low and middle-income countries should everything we can to respond to the needs of India at have equitable access to vaccines. That is why we are this difficult time. putting over half a billion pounds of UK taxpayers’ 387 Government Support for India28 APRIL 2021 Government Support for India 388

[Nigel Adams] worried for friends and families in India, over the last few weeks. May I ask the Minister to join me in putting money into the COVAX arrangement, and also 1.3 billion on record our thanks to all the officials, Government people in those countries will be assisted by the vaccines Ministers and private-sector businesses that have been that will be provided. involved in our work not only in COVAX—I think we were the largest donor up until December last year—but Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): Over the with AstraZeneca, which is doing crucial work in providing years, quite a few people—including, I must admit, myself vaccines to the world’s poorest, and for our deliveries of —have questioned aspects of international aid and its oxygen as well? efficiency, but I wonder if the Minister will acknowledge that public opinion is changing in the middle of a Nigel Adams: I thank my hon. Friend for her thanks global pandemic, with international aid being seen not in this regard. An extraordinary amount of work has just as a moral duty—we are part of one humanity. If been done, and not just by Government; she was right health systems around the world collapse, sooner or to mention the private sector, which has stepped up in later it will come back to bite us. In that respect, can the this pandemic. There has been an incredible international, Minister give a categorical assurance that the recent joined-up effort under extreme circumstances, but I want overseas aid budget cuts will not have affected in any to commend the work both of the FCDO and across way our ability to help the world’s poorest countries Government in ensuring that the initial shipment got deal with this global pandemic? out to India with great speed. We were the first to deliver equipment and there will be more to come. I will Nigel Adams: My right hon. Friend makes a very certainly ensure that my hon. Friend’sthanks are amplified good point. The total amount that FCDO will spend on to the relevant parties. global health is £1.3 billion and this will be focused on the UK’s position at the forefront of the international Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi (Slough) (Lab): At a response to covid, not just through our commitments time when India is registering the highest ever recorded with COVAX and the vaccines I have been talking cases globally of covid, we must help the Indian people about, but also through the Gavi alliance and the World in their hour of need. I have close family there and Health Organisation. Our investment and expertise will many of my Slough constituents are extremely anxious be brought to bear on issues where we can make the about their loved ones, terrified after seeing apocalyptic most difference and achieve maximum impact and value scenes of people dying on the streets for want of oxygen, for money. a collapsing health system, and crematoriums and cemeteries being overwhelmed, with thousands of people Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD) [V]: As many dying every day. I am sure the Minister will join me in hon. Members have said, the images from India are commending the incredible work of volunteers, including both difficult to watch and painful for many of our British-based charities, but, given our close historical constituents with family there.In light of what is happening, ties, will he ensure that the UK is the No. 1 aid donor, how much of the 1.3 billion that is going into covid especially of medical expertise and equipment, including relief worldwide is going to India? Might that be reviewed ventilators and oxygen concentrators? in light of what is happening across the world, with a view to upgrading it? Nigel Adams: The hon. Member makes a good point. We are indeed committed to supporting the Government Nigel Adams: I think the hon. Lady was referring to of India—as I have said on a number of occasions here, the 1.3 billion vaccine doses; perhaps she can nod if that we were first out of the blocks—and I know international is the case. partners will be doing the same. There are close historical Christine Jardine indicated assent. ties and family ties with India across the House, and we will ensure that we are at the forefront of that support. Nigel Adams: Of course, we have made our commitment We are doing it, there is more to come, and there will be and our financial commitment to COVAX. It will decide moreinformationwhenwehaveconcludedourconversations where the vaccines to 92 low and middle-income countries with the Indian Government on what will supply. The will go; that decision will be taken not by the UK but hon. Member can rest assured, and the House can rest strategically by COVAX through the advanced market assured, that the United Kingdom Government are doing commitment it is operating. However, we have committed their bit to support the Indian people. the money; we are paying the money and we should be proud of the support that the United Kingdom is giving Mr Speaker: I am suspending the House for two minutes for international vaccines. to enable the necessary arrangements to be made for the next business. Claire Coutinho (East Surrey) (Con) [V]: Like the 1.5 million other members of the British Indian diaspora, 1.25 pm I have been watching with my heart in my mouth, Sitting suspended. 389 28 APRIL 2021 Environment (Regulation) 390

Environment (Regulation) a watchdog whose bite is as great as its bark. Without powerful, independent regulation or a regulator, we will Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order begin to see more complexities in bureaucracy as food No. 23) producers seek to comply with traditional, high-quality British standards but simultaneously have to operate 1.28 pm with lower production costs as they battle to avoid Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD): I beg being undercut by cheap imports. to move, A huge fear for consumers and farmers alike is that That leave be given to bring in a Bill to establish an independent the Government will allow lower quality, cheaper imports regulatory body to monitor and enforce the compliance of public into the UK as they seek deals with other countries to bodies with climate and environmental requirements and targets; provide some compensation for the loss of nearby European to make provision for associated sanctions; to require the regulatory markets: countries that do not take care of their animals body to assess the environmental effects of potential trade agreements; to make provision about environmental standards, including in like we do, which lack animal welfare protections and relation to animal welfare; and for connected purposes. do not produce food in ways that reduce carbon emissions I am introducing the Bill because the UK is without or take care of the natural environment. Those countries meaningful environmental regulation and without any allow their producers to have lower input costs due to kind of independent environmental regulator. Having those lower standards. Is it right that the UK should left the EU and having promised four years ago to have to see an increase in products on our supermarket introduce legislation to provide the UK with its own shelves that have come from inhumane or environmentally independent regulator, the Government continue to fail irresponsible production methods? Is it right that farmers to meet that promise. Unregulated and unpoliced, our should be undercut and ruined by those cheaper and standards of biodiversity, air quality and animal welfare morally inferior products? The answer to those questions need to be protected or the Government will allow them is absolutely no, yet the Government’s continued failure to be eroded. to step back and allow themselves to be regulated mean that we have no means to ensure that new trade deals do Politicians on all sides have a habit of saying that not open the door to food produced in ways that damage British farming is the best in the world. That claim the environment, harm animals and put UK farmers happens to be true, but I fear that the Conservative out of business. Government do not understand why it is true. We can protect British farming only if we understand it. I am There is a real fear that the Government will do such compelled to introduce the Bill, because the Government deals—perhaps by accident, but quite probably by design. do not seem to understand it and do not seem to get it. After all, the farming Minister wrote to Conservative MPs a few months ago telling them that if we required British farming is the best in the world, mainly for imports to meet the same animal welfare and environmental two fundamental reasons: standards and culture: standards, standards as British farmers it would make it very difficult because we have led the development of the world’s to secure trade deals. In other words, “Please do not tie most ambitious and comprehensive system of agricultural our hands, because we can only get these trade deals if and environmental regulation alongside our partners you allow us to throw British farmers under the bus.” on the continent; and culture, because the unit of farming That is why my proposal for a new, powerful and in Britain is the family farm, which has underpinned independent regulator is vital to protect British standards our reputation for unrivalled care and compassion for and British farmers. livestock, and for a ratio of humans to animals that allows the welfare of those animals to be a priority. Without a regulator, we will allow the Conservative Furthermore, the culture of Britain’s family farms is Government to continue their path of inaction on the one in which they are not just proud to produce our natural environment. We see a lack of natural flood food but proud to be the stewards of our countryside protection; loss of British biodiversity at an ever increasing and environment, to be on the frontline of the fight rate; and the tragic, premature deaths of thousands of against climate change and the fight to restore nature. If people every year due to air pollution. In the past five we lose our world-class regulation and have no effective years, this Government have been told by multiple court regulator, and if we allow family farms to be undercut systems that they need to do much more to tackle the and go to the wall, we fatally undermine British farming toxic levels of air pollution in this country. Their 2017 and all that is good about it. It is not acceptable for the national action plan on air pollution was deemed unlawful Government to promise regulation and a regulator, and by the UK High Court, as it was simply not strong continually to break that promise, while our farmers are enough to enforce change among local authorities. put under increasing pressure and our environment is This year, in a case started before we left the EU, the put at increased risk. European Court of Justice found this Government to That is why, along with my Liberal Democrat and have “systematically and persistently”breached air pollution Alliance colleagues, I am pushing the Bill. There is an limits. Without an independent regulator with the teeth urgent need for safeguards to be put in place. We need a to hold our Government to account, they will be even regulator that is well resourced, has comprehensive and less accountable for their failures to tackle these ecological strong powers, and is completely independent of and human crises.The lack of action from the Conservatives Government so that it can set and enforce regulation should not be left to the court systems to sort out. It without fear or favour, and have the strength to hold should be dealt with directly by an independent body, public authorities at all levels to account. We need much just as the Government have promised. more than a body that just points out where the Our lack of environmental protections extend beyond Government are failing. We need an office that can force air quality and into the quality of nature in the UK. We the Government to comply; an office that can prosecute, are already living in the most nature-depleted country and can levy fines and other sanctions to prevent abuse; on the planet. Only 14% of our waterways are in good 391 Environment (Regulation) 28 APRIL 2021 392

[Tim Farron] Fire Safety Bill condition, and more than 40% of native species are in Consideration of Lords message decline. This is an embarrassment for us all. We are in the run-up to COP26, and at the moment our likely After Clause 2 message to other countries will have to be, “Do as we say but not as we do.” We cannot set a good example LEGISLATIVE PROPOSALS RELATING TO PROHIBITION ON when the Government are threatening the livelihoods of PASSING REMEDIATION COSTS ON TO LEASEHOLDERS AND farmers across the UK with a lack of regulation on TENANTS animal welfare and other standards. The Government are compounding that error by their 1.39 pm stubborn and penny-pinching approach to the transition The Minister for Housing (Christopher Pincher): I beg from the basic farm payment scheme to the new to move, environmental land management scheme.The Government That this House disagrees with Lords amendment 4L. insist on forcing many family farms to accept a 50% cut As I have said on a number of occasions at this in their income, with no immediate replacement. This Dispatch Box, I want to express my sincere thanks once plan will inevitably put hundreds of family farms out of again to all right hon. and hon. Members for engaging business. This matters because without farmers we have in this important debate. I would like to repeat the no partners to deliver natural flood prevention schemes, message given by my noble Friend the building safety to enhance biodiversity and carbon sequestration, and Minister in paying tribute to the fire and rescue services to maintain the stunning landscapes that underpin the across our country, because in recent days we have seen tourism economy in places such as the lakes and the large fires in Greater Manchester and Shropshire, and dales. This stubborn penny-pinching goes hand in hand they have been dealt with in an exemplary and professional with the Government’s failure to ensure a powerful manner. This is a reminder of why we want to get this independent regulator. Both those failures seem certain Bill on to the statute book—to help fire and rescue to contribute to undermining British farming and our services do their job to ensure that buildings are properly natural environment, unless we act. and thoroughly assessed. Today, I am giving Parliament the opportunity to act. All of us in this House and in the other place agree in This Bill aims to unite town and country in favour of a the strongest terms that residents have the right to be new deal for our environment that values British farmers and to feel safe in their homes. This Government remain and enshrines British values. How can we say that we steadfast in our commitment to delivering the Grenfell are proud of our animal welfare standards, our Tower inquiry phase 1 report’s recommendations. The environmental protections, and the quality of British Fire Safety Bill is an important first step in our legislative farming if we then are happy to sell them out to the programme delivering these recommendations. I cannot highest bidder with the lowest regulation? We need an stress enough, as I have reiterated on a number of environmental regulator,as the Government have promised. occasions throughout the passage of this Bill, the vital Given that the Government have failed to deliver that importance of this legislation and the ramifications if it promise, I stand here to deliver it for them. For the good fails as a result of outstanding remediation amendments, of our farmers and our environment, there is no more and that is why I move that this House disagrees with time to lose. Lords amendment 4L. Question put and agreed to. Without the Fire Safety Bill, legal ambiguity around Ordered, the fire safety order will continue. Moreover, the updating That Tim Farron, Mr Alistair Carmichael, Wendy of fire risk assessments to cover structure, external walls Chamberlain, Daisy Cooper, Ed Davey, Stephen Farry, and flat entrance doors will be ignored by a number of Wera Hobhouse, Christine Jardine, Layla Moran, Sarah negligent building owners, and fire and rescue services Olney, Jamie Stone and Munira Wilson present the Bill. will lack the legal certainty to support enforcement decisions. That is a matter that I know will be in the Tim Farron accordingly presented the Bill. minds of Members today, as it should also be in the minds Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time of Members of the other place. tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 297). A number of Members across the House have said to me, “Well, why not simply redraft the Bill?” That might be easier to do with other legislation that already has careful cross-referencing to other Acts and already has detailed secondary legislation to revise regulations, but not so with this small but none the less important Bill. Redrafting it, even if the amendments were not defective, so that it carefully navigates the intricate web of contract law and does not fall foul of such Acts beloved of Members of this House, including many Opposition Members, such as the Human Rights Act 1998, will take considerable time, and we do not have that time. Following our announcement in February,I am pleased to say that hundreds of thousands of leaseholders will be protected from the cost of replacing unsafe cladding on their homes as part of our five-point plan to end the cladding scandal once and for all, improve the saleability 393 Fire Safety Bill 28 APRIL 2021 Fire Safety Bill 394 of properties and restore confidence in the housing Sir Peter Bottomley: I am grateful to the Minister, market. The measures that we announced in February— and he knows I am trying to play the ball and not the including our work with the Royal Institution of Chartered person. The question is not the small amounts but the Surveyors to reduce the need for EWS1 forms; our work large amounts. It is estimated that the cost of remediation with developers to put more of their own money on the may go up to £15 billion. The Government are providing table, additional to our tax and levy plans; and our £5 billion, which leaves £10 billion that may fall on the work with lenders to buy into our package of measures shoulders of leaseholders. Weare moving from a situation to ensure sensible and proportionate value is re-ascribed that might be ironic for some, to one that is irenic for to homes valued at zero—will allow hundreds of thousands more. The point of the amendment is that it needs to be of homes to be sold, bought or remortgaged once met by Government, and it needs to be met in good again. That will provide certainty to residents and lenders, time, or else many people will not be able to meet the boost the housing market and reinstate the value of demand to pay for the cost of remediation, and forfeiture properties. All the amendments we have received, debated will follow. That will happen in a shorter timescale than and already disposed of would simply reignite uncertainty the one talked about by my right hon. Friend the Member in the market and risk lenders once again turning to for North Somerset (Dr Fox). leaseholders saying, “Computer says no: we can’t value your property”. Christopher Pincher: I certainly accept my hon. Friend’s I find it somewhat ironic that Members are flagging assurance that he is playing the issue, as he always does, these issues in the context of trying to impede the and not the man. As he rightly says, we propose to progress of the Bill, as having an up-to-date fire and spend £5.1 billion of public money on remediating the risk assessment that considers the external wall system tallest buildings, as directed by the Hackitt report and of a building should enable an insurer to take an its recommendations. informed and proportionate approach to risk that considers not only the material and construction of the building We have also said that as a result of our tax on the but the way in which it is managed. development industry, which the Chancellor will consult on imminently, we will raise a further £2 billion. We 1.45 pm have also said that we will introduce a tall buildings I agree that leaseholders need stronger avenues for levy. Developers themselves are placing more money redress. The draft Building Safety Bill, which has already on the table. Taylor Wimpey has now placed a further gone through prelegislative scrutiny, will bring forward £125 million on the table for remediation, and Persimmon measures to do this, including making directors, as well £75 million. The amounts are building up. We have also as companies, liable for prosecution. suggested a very advantageous financing scheme for I agree that the industry must also play its part. As I those buildings below 18 metres that may require some said to my right hon. Friend the Member for North remediation. Somerset (Dr Fox), who is in his place, our high-rise levy and developer tax will make sure that the developers I think all Members would agree that the taxpayer with the broadest shoulders pay their way. I reiterate should not be paying for every cost associated with the what I said to him yesterday about forfeiture, which is a provisions of the Fire Safety Bill, but that is the risk, draconian measure that should be used only as a last because the scope of the amendments that have been resort. We believe this matter should be considered as tabled is far too broad to provide a sensible solution. part of our wider programme of leasehold reform, which Lords amendment 4L is also unclear on who should we have already indicated we will bring forward. take responsibility for remediation works until a statutory scheme is in place to pay the costs. That would result in I also welcome my right hon. Friend’s suggestion, in alltypesof remediationbeingdelayed—areallyunsatisfactory yesterday’s speech, about the case study from Portishead outcome for leaseholders.Leaseholders also will not thank in his constituency. As I agreed yesterday, I think we can us for voting through an amendment that will generate make good use of this opportunity to assess in-depth lots of litigation that they may need to pay for. lessons learned from the systems on the ground. Again, I am grateful to him for his proposals. The amendment would prevent the passing on of The safety of leaseholders and residents will be remediation costs, but it does not define what those compromised if we do not ensure that this Bill is placed costs are. That is a recipe for litigation and a recipe for on the statute book by the end of this Session. We will delay. There is a lack of clarity on the definition of not help leaseholders, nor will we make homes any safer, remedial work and what may be attributable to the by impeding its passage. provisions in this Bill, in other Acts or in none. How Lords amendment 4L lacks clarity, just like the others. would Members suggest that we disaggregate the legislation Just like the others, it prohibits all kinds of remediation under which works are carried out and the definition costs from being passed on to leaseholders, which means to differentiate between remediation, maintenance or that were there to be even minor costs as a result of wear improvement? It is a recipe for litigation and a recipe for and tear, or even where leaseholders themselves are delay. responsible for the damage, they would not be expected In effect, it may not be possible to relieve leaseholders to pay. I do not believe, and I do not believe this House and tenants from all costs for remedial works attributable believes, that that is a proportionate response. to the Bill without breaching subsidy control rules—a Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con): Will the form of state aid. Further detailed consideration would Minister give way? be needed about that, too. Practically speaking, drafting legislation is, as many Members will know, a complex Christopher Pincher: I will, of course, give way to the matter that cannot be dealt with in the timeframe Father of the House, as I was unable to do so yesterday proposed by the amendment, and to provide an arbitrary due to time constraints. deadline is neither helpful nor practical. 395 Fire Safety Bill 28 APRIL 2021 Fire Safety Bill 396

[Christopher Pincher] That argument against delaying the Bill was put to us time and again when we were trying to make amendments There is a common theme uniting these points. The to implement the Grenfell inquiry recommendations. amendments will not work. They will not help leaseholders. On Report, the Minister for Security, the right hon. They are not detailed enough for a complex and intricate Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (James Brokenshire), problem of this nature. We have seen the key elements said that accepting our amendment to implement the of this amendment time and again, and this House has Grenfell inquiry phase 1 recommendations would “create voted them down time and again. Yet time and again, uncertainty”. The Minister for Crime and Policing, the peers and the Opposition—unintentionally, I trust—seem hon. Member for North West Hampshire (Kit Malthouse), set on reinjecting uncertainty into the market, which later said: cannot help leaseholders. I respectfully ask the House “It is not helpful, I have to say, for the House to keep returning to reject this amendment, so that we return a further to this issue.”—[Official Report, 24 February 2021; Vol. 689, clear and consistent message to the other place. c. 950.] Headdedthatitcauses“confusion”.However,aftercontinually Sarah Jones (Croydon Central) (Lab): The Minister votingagainstouramendments,theGovernmenteventually has made a lengthy speech on this occasion, perhaps gave in and made the concession in the other place. trying to ensure that others have less time to speak. I am It was possible then, even after months of their saying it glad that he took an intervention from the Father of the was not, and it is possible now. House on this occasion—he did not do so yesterday—but The Housing Minister has the audacity to imply that unfortunately he did not answer the main point, and the supposed delays from new amendments would mean therefore we must conclude that the Government are that people were less safe, as if people are not already contentforthe£10billionof additionalcosttobeshouldered unsafe living in buildings riddled with fire safety issues. by leaseholders. Has he forgotten that hundreds of thousands of people We find ourselves in an extraordinary position. We up and down the country are already stuck in unsafe voted on this only yesterday, and in that debate every buildings? I say to him again today: if the Government single speaker—the Conservative, Labour and Lib Dem have not managed to work out how to pursue the contributors—pleaded with the Government to support money from those responsible, why do they not do what leaseholders. No one spoke in the Government’s favour, is right and stop leaseholders footing the bill now? and the Government’s majority was halved in the vote. Labour’s amendment would buy the Government time. At what point does the Minister question the sense of It would protect leaseholders while the Government his approach? At what point does he turn around and came up with a longer-term plan. think, “Well, all these people who have spoken are As Lord Kennedy of Southwark said yesterday in the sensible and well meaning; perhaps they have a point”? other place, it is unusual to be here again so soon, but At what point does he consider that he might actually this is an unprecedented crisis and the Government agree with us? should be taking unprecedented measures to sort it out. I suspect that the Minister has had those thoughts, The Government know that hundreds of thousands of and I suspect that he even agrees with us. He knows that people are being forced to pay to fix fire safety issues the Bank of England is worried about a crash caused that were not their fault. The Government should pay directly by the crisis. He knows that hundreds of thousands and then go after the building companies and developers of people are suffering. But he also knows that his who are responsible. Most MPs agree: 95% of all MPs, Chancellor and his Prime Minister do not care enough and 92% of Tory MPs, said that the developers who to act. They have other priorities—to their property built the flats should pay to make them safe. and development donors. Fourteen separate companies The tragedy is that we know that, at some point, the and individuals with links to construction companies Government are going to have to act to fix this problem. using potentially lethal aluminium composite material We know that they cannot leave leaseholders to foot a cladding on buildings have donated nearly £4 million to £10 billion bill. Yet yesterday,many Conservative Members the Conservatives since 2006. The Prime Minister must voted against an amendment that would have protected have his new curtains, so they turn away from the leaseholders. What will they do today? Will they keep screams for help from the people hit with extraordinary voting against their conscience, against their opinions, bills of £40,000, £50,000, £60,000, and the Minister has against the will of their constituents, or will they do the to bunker down, hold his nose and hold the line. I almost right thing and vote to protect leaseholders? feel sorry for him. Let me touch briefly on the arguments put forward Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): We by the Minister yesterday and today for not accepting have a very short time for this debate, so I am afraid these amendments. The argument that they would further that we have to have a limit of three minutes on Back-Bench delay the implementation of the Grenfell recommendations speeches. does not wash and is frankly insulting to the Grenfell survivors. Yesterday, the hon. Member for Stevenage Royston Smith (Southampton, Itchen) (Con): First, I (Stephen McPartland) read out Grenfell United’s have agreed with pretty much everything that the hon. condemnation of the use and abuse of the tragedy to Member for Croydon Central (Sarah Jones) has said in put the blame on leaseholders.It said that the Government’s these debates over the last few weeks, but I disagree excuse that amendments to protect leaseholders would fundamentally with her bringing into it this political delay Grenfell recommendations is “deeply upsetting”, trope that the reason the Government will not act is that “wrong”, they are all in the pocket of the developers. That does “and shows they’d rather protect the corporates responsible from not help this debate, it does not help us move it forward, paying for the mess they created.” and it does not help the leaseholders to keep putting in 397 Fire Safety Bill 28 APRIL 2021 Fire Safety Bill 398 their minds that there is some sort of conspiracy. I agree causing huge uncertainty. As for his point about drafting with the hon. Lady on almost everything, but certainly complexity, he should give a commitment to go away not on that. and draft something and bring it back in the Building In yesterday’sdebate,the Minister said—this was repeated Safety Bill, because either his view is that it is complex just a few moments ago from the Dispatch Box—that and no one has drafted anything suitable yet—so go “all of us in this House agree that residents deserve to be safe, and away and draft it—or it is simply a way of trying to resist to feel safe, in their homes.”—[Official Report, 27 April 2021; the idea that leaseholders should not have to pay. Vol. 693, c. 264.] In the meantime, I have a practical suggestion to He is correct. We all agree on that. I think we all agree make. All those involved, including MPs, spend a lot of —at least, the Government, from the Prime Minister time going back and forth about practical problems in down have repeatedly said they agree—that leaseholders respectof blocks,difficulties,delays,alackof communication should not have to pay for historical fire defects. and so forth. I have had to use parliamentary questions to try to find out what has been happening in respect of 2 pm applications to the building safety fund for particular The Minister reminded us that this Bill was introduced blocks in my constituency. I have to say, the replies I over a year ago. May I remind him that I and my hon. have received have been distinctly unhelpful. Friend the Member for Stevenage (Stephen McPartland) A very large range of people is involved: leaseholders tabled the “McPartland-Smith amendment” nearly five of course, freeholders, the fire service, managing agents, months ago? The Minister has repeatedly suggested building companies, developers, chartered surveyors, that our amendments are defective, and he has done so local authorities, mortgage lenders, insurance companies, again today, but in five months the Government have and the Minister’s Department. I know that Ministers done nothing to take our well-intentioned amendment and officials meet individual groups and organisations and incorporate it in the Bill. We have less than 48 hours regularly, but I think there would be great merit in until the end of this parliamentary Session. If the bringing together representatives of all these groups to Government and Minister agree that innocent leaseholders establish what we can call a contact group or an action should not pay, and if they are now concerned that they group, so that the Minister and his officials can sit have run out of time, should they not have attempted a around a table on a regular basis to share information compromise in the five months since we tabled our about what is happening and to progress-chase, iron out amendment? problems, test out ideas and find answers to the problems Noble Lords from the other place have now done the for which there is as yet no plan, but which my constituents Government’s work for them. They have found a in have to live with each and every day and which mechanism to save the Fire Safety Bill—which we all weigh so heavily upon them, their lives and their sense want, incidentally—and, at the same time, to insert a of whether there is a future that they can look forward requirement for the Government to protect leaseholders to, because, as things stand, there is not one. I really from the crippling charges for defects that are not of hope that Ministers will take up the idea and finally their making. I cannot repeat this enough—this is not acknowledge that only a comprehensive plan is going to of their making. Wehave repeatedly asked the Government bring this nightmare to an end. to compromise, but they have not done so. This amendment allows them to do so now, even at the eleventh hour, and Dr Liam Fox (North Somerset) (Con): Again, we all finally secure the future of the Bill and protect those want the same thing. Wewant the protection of leaseholders who have been begging the Government for help. from bills that they cannot afford and should not have I will support the Lords amendment today, and I been given; we want the protection of taxpayers from a hope that the Government and my colleagues on the burden that they should not have to carry; and we want Government Benches will do so. If they are serious the application of the “polluter pays” principle, so that about protecting innocent leaseholders and securing the the developers, insurers and builders who are responsible Bill, they will agree to the Lords amendment or table for the problems in the first place are the ones who have their own in the other place before the end of the to pay the costs of remediation. All of that has become parliamentary Session. I think everyone knows that it is perfectly clear during our various debates on the matter. time to take the compromise. I welcome what my hon. Friend the Member for Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab) [V]: The Minister Southampton, Itchen (Royston Smith) said yesterday knows that this problem is not going to go away.Whether and today about establishing a study on the ground— it is the Fire Safety Bill today or in the Building Safety similar, in some ways, to that which the right hon. Bill, we will keep returning to this. He knows that Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) just mentioned— because what has been done so far is insufficient. He that would make it possible to talk to real people about knows it because, as things stand, the length of time it is real bills, and about why the huge sum of taxpayers’ likely to take to sort this out will be too long for many money that has been set aside is not getting through to leaseholders to be able to continue to bear the costs that them. What rate-limiting steps, and what problems with they are paying at the moment and to contemplate the bureaucracy and the timescales that have been set, make future costs that hang over them. And the Government it impossible for that money to get to the people who know it because, as they said right at the beginning of need it? I very much welcome that idea. I hope that the this crisis—we intend to hold them to this promise—it timescale will be short and the Minister will be able to is not right that leaseholders should be asked to bear share the lessons learned with all Members. the costs of something they were not responsible for. Today, the Minister has edged us towards the necessary I really do not understand the Minister’s argument. compromise. If we are willing to make it clear in the The uncertainty is not caused by our voting for the Queen’s Speech that leasehold reform will deal with Lords amendments; it is the unresolved problem that is forfeiture, that will remove one of the biggest fears. As 399 Fire Safety Bill 28 APRIL 2021 Fire Safety Bill 400

[Dr Liam Fox] issue, then, is that it is going to take some five years for the work to be carried out, and that leaseholders are the Father of the House said, what about the potential receiving bills now of £50,000 or more in order for the for forfeiture to occur during the time before the passing work to be carried out. They can ill afford it. of that legislation? That does need to be dealt with. If I The Government are committed to producing the may say so, my hon. Friend the Minister was clearer about Building Safety Bill, but we know that it will be announced that today than he was yesterday, and that is hugely to in the Queen’s Speech and that it will probably take be welcomed. I have always thought that the idea that 18 months to two years before it is live and operational. we could not say what would be in the Queen’s Speech Leaseholders do not have the luxury of that time. They sat a bit oddly with the fact that we can read what will are being charged the money right now. We still do not be in the Budget three days before it actually happens. know the details of the forced loan scheme that the I also welcome what my hon. Friend the Minister Government are offering for leaseholders in buildings said about the scope of the Building Safety Bill and the below six storeys. We have been asking to scrutinise it, ability to set out in it the concept of apportionment, so we can see whether it is fit for purpose or whether it which will be a major element. I hope that if we can will even work. take these concepts forward in the other place, we might I have had the honour and privilege of serving on the reach a solution to this problem. It seems to me that the Housing, Communities and Local Government Committee building blocks of a solution are there. for the past 11 years. We are publishing a report on As my hon. Friend and Members from all parts of cladding and the other issues tomorrow. Obviously I am the House have said, we all want certainty, so that lenders not allowed to pre-disclose the details, but it is fair to can lend, property values can stabilise and homeowners— say that we are critical of the way in which the Government the very people my party wants to encourage—can sleep are approaching this necessary means. I urge the Minister soundly in their beds once again, as they have a right for Housing, who is a good friend for whom I have to do. every respect, to let us have some commitments from the Front Bench in his answer to this debate, and to tell Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD): I, us what he will do to ensure that leaseholders are too, rise to support the Lords amendment. The amendment prevented from having to bear these unnecessary and is simple; it protects leaseholders and prevents them unacceptable costs. Let us also have some commitments from being charged crippling, life-changingly colossal on when we will see the proposed forced loan scheme. bills to make safe properties that are unsafe only because Let us have some commitments on when we can expect of the actions of developers and a lack of Government to see the Building Safety Bill brought into operation, regulation. and some overall commitment to ensure that people Here we are: the Government have played to the final living in unmortgageable, unsaleable flats are given whistle, and they are down by the corner flag keeping appropriate comfort, because, frankly, without that, we ball and feigning cramp in the hope that the final will have to support the Lords amendment to ensure whistle will go and we will all move on. Let me be clear. that the Government come back with these proposals I assure the Minister—and, more importantly,I encourage early in the new Session. anxious and distressed leaseholders—that we will not Let us make sure that we send the message to leaseholders give up. We will not troop off the field, not to play again, out there: you should not have to pay a penny piece to once the 90 minutes are up. We will come back next rectify the problems that are not your fault in the first Session and fight the corner of leaseholders who currently place. I shall be supporting the Lords amendment once face bills that they can never, ever hope to be able to again today. afford, and that are not theirs to pay in the first place. As has been mentioned, the Government’s stance on Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab) [V]: This Bill has this issue sets out starkly whose side they are on. They been passing backwards and forwards between the Lords are on the side of the wealthy developers, some of and Commons because the Government will not do the whom fund their party. They are on the side of negligent right thing and protect leaseholders from the ruinous officials who allowed this to happen. They are not on costs of replacing cladding and remediating internal the side of those who are working hard to afford a roof fire safety defects during construction. By refusing to above their heads. This is a Britain, it would appear, do so, the Government are making liars out of all the where innocent householders have to pay to remove successive Ministers—and, indeed, a Prime Minister—who dangerous cladding while somebody else pays for the have told this House that leaseholders should not pay Prime Minister’s new curtains. We believe in a better for building defects for which they are not responsible. Britain where there is justice, not crushing, undeserved Today I want to focus on the impact of the EWS1 debt. If we do not win today, then, for the sake of regulations and the callous way in which another operator, leaseholders across this country, we will be back. FirstPort, is treating vulnerable residents in Blackberry Court in my constituency. FirstPort has written to the Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con) [V]: So, here we 27 leaseholders in Blackberry Court, which is a two-storey are again debating the Fire Safety Bill and the Lords block of flats, to advise them that the fire safety work amendments to it. The key issue here is not whether we will cost more than £20,000. It has not provided a enshrine in law the requirements on fire safety but who breakdown of costs or issued a section 20 notice, as it is ends up paying for them. The reality is, as the Father of legally obliged to do for any work costing more than the House mentioned, that the £5.1 billion offered by £250 per leaseholder. What is most disturbing, however, the Government thus far will be insufficient to cover the is that FirstPort has been demanding access to the roof remediation and fire safety costs identified not only in void through the only loft hatch, which is located in the tall buildings but in lower buildings as well. The key bedroom of my constituent, who is an elderly lady of 401 Fire Safety Bill 28 APRIL 2021 Fire Safety Bill 402

94 years of age. FirstPort would brook no objection to amendment 4L is not satisfactory to the Government, this until I intervened to forestall this intrusion and then there is still time for them to produce their own. I asked it to create new access to the roof void from the very much hoped that the Government would have common parts of the building. But the fact that it had acted on the proposals in the amendment tabled by my not yet been able to access the void to survey it means right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset that it must already have been aware that there was no (Dr Fox) yesterday. That still offers a way forward, but compartmentation in the roof space. Indeed, I have absent that, at least the current amendment from the discovered that Blackberry Court, which was built in Lords gives the means of protection in the interim. 2007, never got a completion certificate, despite being At the present time, leaseholders in blocks, such as covered by the Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order Northpoint in my constituency, have properties that are 2005. That prompts the question of why the company unmortgageable. They cannot move. They cannot raise had not acted on this fire safety defect before. Some any more money on them. They have already expended may suspect that the properties were unsaleable and tens of thousands of pounds in costs relating to waking devalued—unless the work was done—because of the watch and greatly increased insurance claims. That is EWS1 form. The Government did change the requirements not satisfactory. on the form, but the Minister knows that the banks and We need a provision that bridges the gap in getting the mortgage lenders have not changed their stance, nor those responsible to pay. None of us who supports this have the insurers. amendment wants the taxpayer to be picking up a blank cheque. We want those who are responsible, who were 2.15 pm at fault, ultimately to pick up the tab, but it will take Charitably, EWS1 forms are the Government’s attempt some time to pin the financial responsibility on those to force a proper assessment of fire safety defects. Less people. In the interim, we must have a means of protecting charitably, they appear to be an attempt to outsource the innocent leaseholders. That bridging arrangement is the crucial work of assessing dangerous buildings after something that only the Government are able to do. I Grenfell Tower to an unregulated private market. Currently, would have hoped that accepting that, together with there is no requirement for a surveyor to hold the commitments to move swiftly in legislation in this Queen’s minimumqualification—professionalregistrationorcertification Speech, was not an unreasonable thing to do. as to their competence—and nothing to ensure a uniform Having served as a Minister myself, I do not buy the approach as to how inspectors carry out checks. This proposition that it is beyond the resources of Government means that, in some cases, different EWS1 ratings are to swiftly produce legislation that remedies the alleged being given for the same block. defect that the Minister sees in the current amendment According to Government statistics, there are around and sets the Bill in good order. There is still time to do 88,000 residential buildings taller than 11 metres in England, that. I beseech the Minister to reflect on this and to containing 1.2 million leasehold homes. The Government come back with the Government’s own proposals in the have said that there are currently just 212 chartered fire other House before the end of this Session. engineers across the UK registered with the Institution Robustness is a virtue, but when it turns into obduracy of Fire Engineers. This means that getting an EWS1 form it ceases to be a virtue. I do not want the Government to is nigh on impossible, and, in the meantime, leaseholders get themselves into that situation. There is still time, are left in economic limbo, unable to sell or to move on and this amendment buys them time to resolve that with their lives. My constituent, at the age 94, simply satisfactorily. I urge the Minister profoundly to listen wants to live out her life in peace and safety in the flat to this. that she bought more than a decade ago. The Government’s refusal— Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/ Co-op): It is an honour to follow the hon. Member for Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): Order. Bromley and Chislehurst (Sir Robert Neill). I agree I have given the hon. Gentleman considerable leeway, wholeheartedly with what he said, and indeed with the but he has far exceeded the time allocated, so we must comments made from the Front Bench by my hon. now go to Sir Robert Neill. Friend the Member for Croydon Central (Sarah Jones) and by many other Members across the House. I also Sir Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con) [V]: support the Lords amendment, not least because of the I shall be supporting Lords amendment 4L today with suffering undergone by my constituents in Cardiff South some regret, because I wish the Government had moved and Penarth and by many others across the UK. to resolve this issue since we last debated it yesterday; it The Minister talked about uncertainty, but as many is disappointing that they have not done so. I support Members have pointed out, uncertainty is being caused the amendment on the basis that I want the Fire Safety by the Government’s failure to engage with reasonable Bill to proceed; I want it to be successful. The truth is proposals made from all parts of the House to provide that, while the fundamental elements of the Bill are certainty for the very leaseholders who have been affected. worthy, it none the less has, at present, the effect of The Minister’s arguments simply do not wash. Our causing collateral damage to innocent leaseholders. That leaseholders have been dealing with this matter for flies in the face of undertakings that the Government years—the anxiety, the stress and the financial pressure, themselves have regularly given. Despite the huge sums not least during the covid pandemic over the past year. of money that has been put in, as is already apparent, it That has been intolerable for some of them, and I have is not enough. met constituents who were crying and in a terrible state In the meantime, we need to have a scheme that because of the situation they have been left in. I simply protects leaseholders, and it is the absence of a provision cannot understand the Government’scontinued resistance, in the Bill to do that which is the problem. If Lords not least given the cross-party pressure and support. 403 Fire Safety Bill 28 APRIL 2021 Fire Safety Bill 404

[Stephen Doughty] The safety scandal exposed by the Grenfell Tower fire affects up to 1.3 million flats. Current leaseholders I thank the Welsh Government—Housing Minister cannot sell, and potential leaseholders cannot get new Julie James, my colleague Vaughan Gething and so mortgages until they can prove the homes are safe. many others—for meeting with leaseholders in my Insurance is impossible to come by. Worse, residents of constituency. They have put pressure on developers and those flats live with the fear of being trapped by a fire in made a commitment to £32 million in the recent budget, their home. Leaseholders live with the fear of unaffordable and have already committed £10 million. They have an costs for the remediation being imposed on them. active programme on leasehold reform and, crucially, are making it clear, which the Government here seem The human cost is incalculable. In my constituency unwilling to do, that leaseholders should not have to alone, at the Paragon estate, built by Berkeley, about foot the bill for fixing these fire safety and building 70 homeowners, along with hundreds of assured tenants safety defects. and students, were evacuated with a week’s notice and cannot return. A fire raged up the cladding of We all want the developers to pay and we all want the Sperry House in the middle of the Great West Quarter resources to come through, but the reality is that we all estate built by Barratt Homes. Leaseholders in at least have to stand up and say clearly, once and for all, that 25 blocks in my constituency that were built by volume leaseholders should not be the ones paying for the house developers face unknown costs, including for waking remediation. This is not their fault. I will continue to watch, for the replacement of flammable cladding and work closely on the issue with my constituency colleague wooden balconies and, most expensive of all, to address Vaughan Gething, our local councillors, and a range of the lack of fire breaks or proper compartmentalisation. residents and leaseholder organisations. We are not going away. Some of the stories of how people have The building safety fund does not even cover the cost been affected have been told passionately today on BBC of cladding remediation throughout the country, let Wales—the suffering, the anxiety, the pressures. alone any of the other failures in these buildings, and it I am yet to receive adequate response from the UK provides loans only for sub-18-metre blocks. Nor does Government, who have left the Welsh Government and it support housing associations with the cost of rectifying Welsh leaseholders in the dark on the way forward. the safety failures that affect the social rented flats for There is no need for that unless there is something to which they have found themselves responsible through hide. As the Minister knows, Welsh Government officials planning gain, so they are having to take the repair have worked constructively with his Department on the costs from the funds meant for the building of new social passage of the Bill, and are working on a range of issues rented housing. relating to the building safety Bill, yet it took the Unamended, the Bill will mean that leaseholders will Housing Secretary more than a month to respond to be forced to pay. They should not have to pay—they did the Welsh Housing Minister on the crucial, very reasonable not design or build their flats and they do not own the questions she was asking in an offer of co-operation. building their flat is built in. This Parliament, with the I have raised this matter with the Secretary of State support of this Government, could take the burden from for Wales, the Minister and others, yet the letter that leaseholders now, but instead we are told that we have came back from the Housing Secretary over a month to wait for a different Bill, the content of which is later said he is unspecified, as is its timetable. That is unacceptable. “not able to confirm the details and timing of budgetary allocations to Wales”, Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab) [V]: We have although he says the Barnett formula will heard a lot recently about the Prime Minister’s honesty “apply to that funding in the usual way”. and integrity. It is important to our democracy that Why can he not give a clear and unequivocal answer people can trust the word of their leaders, but this about the money that will be available to Wales, and debate highlights that issue yet again. As I reminded the how the Government will work with Welsh officials on House yesterday, on 3 February the Prime Minister told the proposed new tax and the new building levy so that us that we can finally provide some assurance to leaseholders in “no leaseholder should have to pay for the unaffordable costs of my constituency and, crucially, across the country? fixing safety defects that they did not cause and are no fault of their own.”—[Official Report, 3 February 2021; Vol. 688, c. 945.] Ruth Cadbury (Brentford and Isleworth) (Lab): It is a It was a clear statement of policy—an unambiguous pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for pledge to those who face ruin as a result of fire defects Cardiff South and Penarth (Stephen Doughty) and all that are the responsibility of developers. Yet the Prime the Members who have spoken since the Minister sat Minister has consistently whipped his Members to oppose down. amendments to the Bill that would honour his pledge. Ministers, including the Prime Minister, have said in the House and in the other place on many occasions I have listened carefully to the justifications from that leaseholders would not have to pay for fire safety Ministers for opposing the amendments tabled by the failures not of their making, so why do the Government hon. Member for Stevenage (Stephen McPartland) and still disagree with the Lords amendment? The Minister by the Bishop of St Albans, and we heard them again said yesterday and just now that the Government do yesterday. The Minister described the amendments as not have time to draft appropriate amendments to the “laudable in their intentions” but Bill in the way we seek, yet they have had seven months “unworkable and an inappropriate means to resolve a problem as since Second Reading and five months since Third highly complex as this.”—[Official Report, 27 April 2021; Vol. 693, Reading—plenty of time to try to sort this out. c. 264-265.] 405 Fire Safety Bill 28 APRIL 2021 Fire Safety Bill 406

His ministerial colleague in the other place, the Minister principle. We also want to help them to stay on the for Building Safety and Communities, said that it was housing ladder, which is why we brought forward a “the Government’s view that the Bill is not the right legislation in package of measures that we believe—and the lending which to deal with remediation costs.”—[Official Report, House sector tells us—will ensure that proper and sensible of Lords, 27 April 2021; Vol. 811, c. 2207.] value can be reascribed to properties so that people can So, they are not the right amendments and it is not the get on with their lives. right legislation. My hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East (Bob Surely the Government should embrace the new Lords Blackman) asked a number of questions, including amendment, because it gives them the opportunity to when the Building Safety Bill will be brought forward. draft their own proposals in separate legislation and to My noble Friend the Building Safety Minister is working honour the Prime Minister’s promise to leaseholders. on the feedback from the pre-legislative scrutiny process, The Minister claimed today that it will take time; the and is considering the secondary legislation that must hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen (Royston Smith) sit alongside the primary legislation. He will bring that rightly pointed out that they have had time. It has been Bill forward as quickly as may be in the next Session. five months since the hon. Gentleman tabled his amendment My hon. Friend also asked about the speed with which and three months since the Prime Minister’s promise: if we will bring forward our tax on developers. My right the Minister genuinely felt that the objectives were hon. Friend the Chancellor will begin his consultation laudable, he has had time to come up with his own on that process imminently. proposals. Those in the Metis building, Wicker Riverside, My hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Itchen Daisy Spring Works and other buildings throughout (Royston Smith) has been an honourable and doughty my constituency deserve nothing less, because they face campaigner in his cause over the last several months. He bills of up to £50,000 each to fix the mistakes of others. asked whythe Government did not bring forward proposals Unlike the Prime Minister, they do not have access to earlier. The amendments that we received from the private donors. They face bankruptcy and ruin, trapped Lords, and indeed the amendment that for many months in homes that are unsafe and unsaleable, facing unbearable stood in his name, were defective. That is why we were pressure and unimaginable mental strain. not able to accept them and it is why we are not able to Wehave to recognise our responsibility.The leaseholders accept this particular amendment. have been let down by not just the developers but a The shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Croydon flawed system of building inspections. They are—as I Central (Sarah Jones), made a number of points. I will know Ministers recognise—the victims of comprehensive not dignify the slur that she made on the integrity of the regulatory failure. The Government have to step in, Conservative party and our commitment to this cause, urgently fix the faults and then recover the funds from other than to remind her that any party that is owned those responsible— lock, stock and barrel by the trade unions and that has within it such luminaries as Tony Blair and Lord Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): Order. Mandelson—gentlemen not unknown to the lobbying Again, I have allowed considerable leeway, but the hon. industry—should be very careful about throwing mud, Gentleman has had his time. I do not understand: when because mud tends to stick on those who throw it. people are speaking from home, can they not see the time One of the points that the shadow Minister made, limit? I think that might well be the case, so perhaps which was also raised in the speech yesterday of my hon. someone will send a message back. Here in the Chamber Friend the Member for Stevenage (Stephen McPartland), we can see the time limit and I hope that the hon. Gentleman concerned why the Grenfell phase 1 recommendations will appreciate that I allowed him to exceed it. might be delayed if the Fire Safety Bill does not reach I had put on a tight time limit because I had anticipated the statute book in this Session. I remind my hon. some vigorous debate and interventions; there has not Friend and the shadow Minister that the Fire Safety been a single intervention, which leaves plenty of time Bill puts beyond legal doubt that the Regulatory Reform for the Minister to respond to the debate. (Fire Safety) Order 2005 applies to external walls and flat entrance doors in multi-occupied residential dwellings. Christopher Pincher: Thank you, Madam Deputy That certainty will enable the Secretary of State to Speaker, for that opportunity. I am sorry that I have, make regulations, with reduced risk of legal challenge, unfortunately, interposed on the time that the hon. to place duties on the responsible persons regarding external Member for Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield) might wall structure and flat entrance doors, as the inquiry otherwise have supposed to be his own; he was making recommended. Without this Bill on the statute book, a careful and passionate speech, as have the other nine there would be significant legal risks to the Secretary of right hon. and hon. Members who have spoken from State making such orders. It is vital that this Bill is placed the Back Benches today. I am grateful for their insight on the statute book in order for us to use article 24 of and considered contributions. I remind them and both the fire safety order to advance the recommendations of Houses that the Government understand the aims that the Grenfell inquiry. underpin the objectives that have been sent to us over I want to place on record, once again, that this the last several weeks by the House of Lords. Government are committed to protecting leaseholders and tenants from the costs of remediation as far as 2.30 pm possible. This democratically elected House has voted Let me address some of the points made in the unequivocally and decisively on four occasions. Shortly, debate. My right hon. Friend the Member for North we will be asked to vote for a fifth time. I urge the House Somerset (Dr Fox) made a typically powerful and helpful to vote to reject these Lords amendments and I urge speech. I agree with him that we want to help people get their lordships to listen to the will of this democratically on to the housing ladder; that is a good Conservative elected House. 407 Fire Safety Bill 28 APRIL 2021 Fire Safety Bill 408

Sir Peter Bottomley: On a point of order, Madam Davison, Dehenna Holden, Mr Richard Deputy Speaker. Would it be within the Standing Orders Dinenage, Caroline Hollinrake, Kevin of this House for the Government, if they chose to, to Dines, Miss Sarah Holloway, Adam propose a carry-over motion, so that the Bill would not Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Holmes, Paul be lost as this Session comes to an end and the Government Docherty, Leo Howell, John could then improve the amendment, which keeps coming Donelan, Michelle Howell, Paul Dorries, Ms Nadine Huddleston, Nigel back, quite rightly, from the House of Lords? Double, Steve Hudson, Dr Neil Dowden, rh Oliver Hughes, Eddie Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): I Doyle-Price, Jackie Hunt, Jane thank the hon. Gentleman for his point of order. As Drax, Richard Hunt, rh Jeremy ever, his experience shows in the idea that has occurred Drummond, Mrs Flick Jack, rh Mr Alister to him. I do not know whether that idea has occurred to Duddridge, James Javid, rh Sajid the Government. I do not know whether,if it has occurred Duguid, David Jayawardena, Mr Ranil to the Government, they have decided to pursue it or Dunne, rh Philip Jenkin, Sir Bernard not. Actually, I do know that: if the idea has occurred to Eastwood, Mark Jenkinson, Mark the Government, they have decided not to pursue it. Edwards, Ruth Jenkyns, Andrea Therefore, it is not a matter for me to decide what ought Ellis, rh Michael Jenrick, rh Robert to happen, nor a matter for the Chair. It is up to the Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias Johnson, rh Boris Government to decide how they take this matter past Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Johnson, Dr Caroline Eustice, rh George Johnson, Gareth this rather difficult and unusual point, where the other Evans, Dr Luke Johnston, David place has sent a Bill back on several occasions. I expect Evennett, rh Sir David Jones, Andrew that, like me, the hon. Gentleman eagerly anticipates the Everitt, Ben Jones, rh Mr David outcome of this Division and then we shall see what will Fabricant, Michael Jones, Fay happen next. Farris, Laura Jones, Mr Marcus Question put, That this House disagrees with Lords Fell, Simon Jupp, Simon amendment 4L. Fletcher, Katherine Kawczynski, Daniel Fletcher, Mark Kearns, Alicia The House divided: Ayes 322, Noes 256. Fletcher, Nick Keegan, Gillian Division No. 281] [2.36 pm Ford, Vicky Knight, rh Sir Greg Foster, Kevin Knight, Julian AYES Francois, rh Mr Mark Kruger, Danny Frazer, Lucy Kwarteng, rh Kwasi Adams, Nigel Bristow, Paul Freeman, George Lamont, John Afolami, Bim Britcliffe, Sara Freer, Mike Largan, Robert Afriyie, Adam Brokenshire, rh James Fuller, Richard Latham, Mrs Pauline Ahmad Khan, Imran Browne, Anthony Fysh, Mr Marcus Leadsom, rh Andrea Aiken, Nickie Bruce, Fiona Garnier, Mark Leigh, rh Sir Edward Aldous, Peter Buckland, rh Robert Ghani, Ms Nusrat Levy, Ian Allan, Lucy Burghart, Alex Gibb, rh Nick Lewer, Andrew Anderson, Lee Burns, rh Conor Gibson, Peter Lewis, rh Brandon Anderson, Stuart Butler, Rob Gideon, Jo Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Andrew, Stuart Cairns, rh Alun Glen, John Loder, Chris Argar, Edward Carter, Andy Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Logan, Mark Atherton, Sarah Cartlidge, James Gove, rh Michael Longhi, Marco Atkins, Victoria Cash, Sir William Graham, Richard Lopez, Julia Bacon, Gareth Cates, Miriam Grant, Mrs Helen Lopresti, Jack Bacon, Mr Richard Caulfield, Maria Gray, James Lord, Mr Jonathan Badenoch, Kemi Chalk, Alex Grayling, rh Chris Loughton, Tim Bailey, Shaun Churchill, Jo Griffith, Andrew Mackinlay, Craig Baillie, Siobhan Clark, rh Greg Griffiths, Kate Mackrory, Cherilyn Baker, Duncan Clarke, Mr Simon Grundy, James Maclean, Rachel Baker, Mr Steve Clarke, Theo Gullis, Jonathan Mak, Alan Baldwin, Harriett Clarke-Smith, Brendan Halfon, rh Robert Malthouse, Kit Barclay, rh Steve Clarkson, Chris Hall, Luke Mangnall, Anthony Baynes, Simon Cleverly, rh James Hancock, rh Matt Mann, Scott Bell, Aaron Clifton-Brown, Sir Geoffrey Hands, rh Greg Marson, Julie Benton, Scott Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Harper, rh Mr Mark May, rh Mrs Theresa Beresford, Sir Paul Collins, Damian Harris, Rebecca Mayhew, Jerome Berry, rh Jake Costa, Alberto Harrison, Trudy Maynard, Paul Bhatti, Saqib Courts, Robert Hart, Sally-Ann McCartney, Karl Blunt, Crispin Coutinho, Claire Hart, rh Simon Menzies, Mark Bone, Mr Peter Cox, rh Mr Geoffrey Hayes, rh Sir John Merriman, Huw Bowie, Andrew Crabb, rh Stephen Heald, rh Sir Oliver Metcalfe, Stephen Bradley, Ben Crosbie, Virginia Heappey, James Millar, Robin Bradley, rh Karen Crouch, Tracey Heaton-Harris, Chris Miller, rh Mrs Maria Brady, Sir Graham Daly, James Henderson, Gordon Milling, rh Amanda Braverman, rh Suella Davies, David T. C. Henry, Darren Mills, Nigel Brereton, Jack Davies, Gareth Higginbotham, Antony Mohindra, Mr Gagan Bridgen, Andrew Davies, Dr James Hinds, rh Damian Moore, Damien Brine, Steve Davies, Mims Hoare, Simon Moore, Robbie 409 Fire Safety Bill 28 APRIL 2021 Fire Safety Bill 410

Mordaunt, rh Penny Spencer, Dr Ben Campbell, rh Sir Alan Harris, Carolyn Morris, David Spencer, rh Mark Campbell, Mr Gregory Hayes, Helen Morrissey, Joy Stafford, Alexander Carden, Dan Healey, rh John Morton, Wendy Stephenson, Andrew Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Hendrick, Sir Mark Mullan, Dr Kieran Stevenson, Jane Chamberlain, Wendy Hillier, Meg Mumby-Croft, Holly Stevenson, John Champion, Sarah Hobhouse, Wera Mundell, rh David Stewart, Bob Chishti, Rehman Hodge, rh Dame Margaret Murray, Mrs Sheryll Stewart, Iain Chope, Sir Christopher Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Murrison, rh Dr Andrew Stride, rh Mel Clark, Feryal Hollern, Kate Nici, Lia Stuart, Graham Colburn, Elliot Hollobone, Mr Philip Norman, rh Jesse Sturdy, Julian Cooper, Daisy Hopkins, Rachel O’Brien, Neil Sunak, rh Rishi Cooper, Rosie Howarth, rh Sir George Opperman, Guy Sunderland, James Cooper, rh Yvette Hunt, Tom Parish, Neil Swayne, rh Sir Desmond Corbyn, rh Jeremy Huq, Dr Rupa Patel, rh Priti Syms, Sir Robert Coyle, Neil Hussain, Imran Paterson, rh Mr Owen Thomas, Derek Creasy, Stella Jardine, Christine Pawsey, Mark Throup, Maggie Cruddas, Jon Jarvis, Dan Penning, rh Sir Mike Timpson, Edward Cryer, John Johnson, Dame Diana Penrose, John Tomlinson, Justin Cummins, Judith Johnson, Kim Philp, Chris Tomlinson, Michael Cunningham, Alex Jones, Darren Pincher, rh Christopher Tracey, Craig Daby, Janet Jones, Gerald Poulter, Dr Dan Trevelyan, rh Anne-Marie Davey, rh Ed Jones, rh Mr Kevan Pow, Rebecca Trott, Laura David, Wayne Jones, Ruth Prentis, Victoria Truss, rh Elizabeth Davies, Geraint Jones, Sarah Pritchard, Mark Vara, Mr Shailesh Davies, Philip Kane, Mike Pursglove, Tom Vickers, Martin Davies-Jones, Alex Keeley, Barbara Quin, Jeremy Davis, rh Mr David Kendall, Liz Vickers, Matt Quince, Will De Cordova, Marsha Khan, Afzal Villiers, rh Theresa Raab, rh Dominic Debbonaire, Thangam Kinnock, Stephen Wakeford, Christian Randall, Tom Dhesi, Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Kyle, Peter Walker, Sir Charles Redwood, rh John Dodds, Anneliese Lake, Ben Richards, Nicola Walker, Mr Robin Donaldson, rh Sir Jeffrey M. Lammy, rh Mr David Richardson, Angela Wallace, rh Mr Ben Doughty, Stephen Lavery, Ian Roberts, Rob Wallis, Dr Jamie Dowd, Peter Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Robertson, Mr Laurence Warman, Matt Dromey, Jack Lewis, Clive Ross, Douglas Watling, Giles Duffield, Rosie Lewis, rh Dr Julian Rowley, Lee Webb, Suzanne Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain Lloyd, Tony Russell, Dean Whately, Helen Eagle, Ms Angela Lockhart, Carla Sambrook, Gary Wheeler, Mrs Heather Eagle, Maria Long Bailey, Rebecca Saxby, Selaine Whittaker, Craig Eastwood, Colum Lucas, Caroline Scully, Paul Whittingdale, rh Mr John Edwards, Jonathan Lynch, Holly Seely, Bob Wiggin, Bill Efford, Clive Madders, Justin Selous, Andrew Wild, James Elliott, Julie Mahmood, Mr Khalid Shapps, rh Grant Williams, Craig Elmore, Chris Mahmood, Shabana Sharma, rh Alok Williamson, rh Gavin Eshalomi, Florence Malhotra, Seema Shelbrooke, rh Alec Wood, Mike Esterson, Bill Maskell, Rachael Simmonds, David Wright, rh Jeremy Evans, Chris Matheson, Christian Skidmore, rh Chris Farron, Tim McCabe, Steve Young, Jacob Smith, Chloe Farry, Stephen McCarthy, Kerry Zahawi, Nadhim Smith, Greg Ferrier, Margaret McCartney, Jason Smith, Henry Tellers for the Ayes: Fovargue, Yvonne McDonagh, Siobhain Smith, rh Julian David Rutley and Foxcroft, Vicky McDonald, Andy Solloway, Amanda James Morris Foy, Mary Kelly McDonnell, rh John Furniss, Gill McFadden, rh Mr Pat NOES Gale, rh Sir Roger McGinn, Conor Gardiner, Barry McGovern, Alison Abbott, rh Ms Diane Betts, Mr Clive Gill, Preet Kaur McKinnell, Catherine Abrahams, Debbie Blackman, Bob Girvan, Paul McMahon, Jim Ali, Rushanara Blake, Olivia Glindon, Mary McMorrin, Anna Ali, Tahir Blomfield, Paul Green, Chris McPartland, Stephen Allin-Khan, Dr Rosena Bottomley, Sir Peter Green, rh Damian McVey, rh Esther Amesbury, Mike Brabin, Tracy Green, Kate Mearns, Ian Amess, Sir David Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Greenwood, Lilian Miliband, rh Edward Anderson, Fleur Brennan, Kevin Greenwood, Margaret Mishra, Navendu Ansell, Caroline Brown, Ms Lyn Griffith, Nia Moran, Layla Antoniazzi, Tonia Bryant, Chris Gwynne, Andrew Morden, Jessica Ashworth, Jonathan Buck, Ms Karen Haigh, Louise Morgan, Stephen Barker, Paula Burgon, Richard Hamilton, Fabian Morris, Anne Marie Baron, Mr John Butler, Dawn Hammond, Stephen Morris, Grahame Beckett, rh Margaret Byrne, Ian Hanna, Claire Murray, Ian Begum, Apsana Byrne, rh Liam Hardy, Emma Murray, James Benn, rh Hilary Cadbury, Ruth Harman, rh Ms Harriet Nandy, Lisa 411 Fire Safety Bill 28 APRIL 2021 Fire Safety Bill 412

Neill, Sir Robert Smith, Cat Question agreed to. Nichols, Charlotte Smith, Jeff Committee to withdraw immediately; reasons to be Nokes, rh Caroline Smith, Nick reported and communicated to the Lords. Norris, Alex Smith, Royston Offord, Dr Matthew Smyth, Karin Madam Deputy Speaker: In order to observe social Olney, Sarah Sobel, Alex Onwurah, Chi Spellar, rh John distancing, the Reasons Committee will meet not in the Oppong-Asare, Abena Starmer, rh Keir Reasons Room, but in Committee Room 12. Osamor, Kate Stevens, Jo Osborne, Kate Stone, Jamie Dr Liam Fox (North Somerset) (Con): On a point of Owatemi, Taiwo Streeting, Wes order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Further to a point Owen, Sarah Sultana, Zarah raised at Scottish questions today, the Auditor General Paisley, Ian Tami, rh Mark in Scotland has suggested that, of £9.7 billion allocated Peacock, Stephanie Tarry, Sam by UK taxpayers through the UK Treasury,only £7 billion Pennycook, Matthew Thomas, Gareth had been spent on covid-related measures by the Scottish Percy, Andrew Thomas-Symonds, Nick Government by the end of 2020. This is not discretionary Perkins, Mr Toby Thornberry, rh Emily spending that can be diverted to other causes, such as Phillips, Jess Timms, rh Stephen setting money aside for a referendum, but is specifically Phillipson, Bridget Trickett, Jon allocated to ensure that all parts of the UK are equally Pollard, Luke Tugendhat, Tom able to deal with the consequences of the pandemic. Powell, Lucy Turner, Karl Given the nature and origin of this funding, can you Qureshi, Yasmin Twigg, Derek give me any guidance as to which Committees of the Rayner, Angela Twist, Liz Reed, Steve Vaz, rh Valerie House of Commons would be the most appropriate Rees, Christina Warburton, David place to investigate where this money has gone? Reeves, Ellie Webbe, Claudia Reeves, Rachel West, Catherine Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): I Reynolds, Jonathan Western, Matt thank the right hon. Gentleman for his point of order. Ribeiro-Addy, Bell Whitehead, Dr Alan If he were seeking to further the exchanges that took Rimmer, Ms Marie Whitley, Mick place during Scottish questions, his point would not, Robinson, Gavin Whittome, Nadia strictly speaking, be a point of order for the Chair, but I Robinson, Mary Williams, Hywel appreciate that he is asking a serious question about a Rodda, Matt Wilson, Munira serious matter. I can point him in the direction of the Rosindell, Andrew Wilson, rh Sammy Public Accounts Committee, which is concerned with Russell-Moyle, Lloyd Winter, Beth the regularity of spending; the Scottish Affairs Committee, Saville Roberts, rh Liz Wragg, Mr William which deals with non-devolved Scottish matters; and Shah, Naz Yasin, Mohammad the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Shannon, Jim Zeichner, Daniel Committee, which is concerned with the operation of Sharma, Mr Virendra the devolution settlement. In pursuing the question that Sheerman, Mr Barry Tellers for the Noes: Siddiq, Tulip Colleen Fletcher and he raised, he might wish to take the matter up with the Slaughter, Andy Bambos Charalambous Chairman of one or other—or, indeed, all—of those three Select Committees. Question accordingly agreed to. Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con): On a Lords amendment 4L disagreed to. point of order, I am grateful for your clarification of the The list of Members currently certified as eligible for a situation on the Fire Safety Bill, which is what I suspected proxy vote, and of the Members nominated as their it might be. It is obvious that the House of Commons proxy, is published at the end of today’s debates. has the opportunity of a carry-over motion only when dealing with business that is in front of it, and the other Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): As a place has procedures that are similar but not exactly the point of clarification on the point of order raised just same. There seems to be no precedent for what happens before the Division by the Father of the House—he will to a Bill that has been in both Houses, and that may be appreciate that I have now had the opportunity to consider something that could properly be considered by the his point more carefully—a Bill cannot, in fact, be carried Speakers or the Procedure Committees of each House. over after it has been considered by the other place. I In this particular case, as a carry-over motion is not hope that that sets the mind of the Father of the House possible, were the House of Lords to go on sending at rest about what the Government can and cannot properly back helpful amendments and this Bill were to fail, if it do at this particular moment. were re-presented with the problem of the future burdens for leaseholders solved, it could pass both Houses within Motion made and Question put forthwith (Standing a day. Order No. 83H(2)), That a Committee be appointed to drawup a Reason to be assigned to the Lords for disagreeing Madam Deputy Speaker: The Father of the House to their Amendment 4L. raises a most interesting point. He is right in saying that That Christopher Pincher, Tom Pursglove, Scott Mann if the Bill were now to fail, a similar Bill with similar and Chris Elmore be members of the Committee. purposes could be brought forward by the Government That Christopher Pincher be the Chair of the Committee. in the next Session of Parliament. As to whether it could pass quickly through both Houses, or either That three be the quorum of the Committee. House, is, as ever, a matter for Members of this House That the Committee do withdraw immediately.—(Alan and, indeed, of the other place. If Members choose to Mak.) make very short contributions and allow a Bill to pass 413 Fire Safety Bill 28 APRIL 2021 414 through quickly, and if the Government choose to put Capital Gains Tax all stages of a Bill in one day before this House and, indeed, the other place, the House of Commons as a whole and the Government could make those decisions, 2.59 pm and it is not for me to anticipate what might happen. I The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Jesse Norman): thank the Father of the House for his second interesting I beg to move, point of order. That the draft Double Taxation Relief (Federal Republic of I am obliged to suspend the House for three minutes Germany) Order 2021, which was laid before this House on to allow arrangements to be made for the next item of 15 March, be approved. business. Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): With 2.55 pm this it will be convenient to discuss the draft Double Sitting suspended. Taxation Relief (Sweden) Order 2021, which was laid before this House on 15 March.

Jesse Norman: Both orders insert important provisions recommended by the OECD’s and G20’s base erosion and profit shifting project—BEPS—into existing double taxation agreements. For those Members who may, surprisingly, be unfamiliar with the BEPS project, it was an international effort to equip countries with the right domestic and international regulations to tackle tax avoidance. The BEPS provisions ensure that double taxation agreements fulfil their main purpose of facilitating global trade and investment. In addition, the provisions simultaneously limit the opportunity for the agreements to be used for tax evasion or avoidance. Usually improvements to our bilateral double taxation agreements recommended by the BEPS project are made under a treaty commonly referred to as the multilateral instrument, which makes it possible to modify double taxation agreements in line with BEPS project provisions without the need for bilateral renegotiation. However, the domestic legal systems of both Germany and Sweden mean that it is much simpler for these countries to modify their double taxation agreements through amending protocols rather than through a multilateral treaty. As a result, the UK Government have agreed with both Germany and Sweden to implement these modifications through the protocols attached to these orders. These changes included introducing minimum standards to prevent avoidance through the abuse of tax treaties and improving the resolution of disputes. The protocols with both Germany and Sweden give effect to the minimum standard on preventing treaty abuse. This is achieved by inserting a general anti-treaty abuse rule known as the principal purpose test into the double taxation agreement. Both protocols also changed the preamble of each double taxation agreement, which sets out its overriding purpose in order to clarify that the parties do not intend for the agreement to be used to avoid tax. The orders also make changes to the articles in both double taxation agreements that govern how disputes are avoided and resolved. These amendments ensure that the articles are in line with the minimum standard on improving dispute resolution. However, the Germany protocol implements a rule to prevent the artificial fragmentation of activities that might result in an overseas business avoiding a taxable presence. Sweden is not in favour of this provision, which is why it is absent from that protocol. These orders make good on the Government’s international commitments to tackle tax avoidance and evasion and to improve dispute resolution. They strengthen the integrity of the UK’s network of double taxation agreements, which plays such an important part in 415 Capital Gains Tax 28 APRIL 2021 Capital Gains Tax 416

[Jesse Norman] 3.5 pm Kirsty Blackman (Aberdeen North) (SNP): This is facilitating the cross-border trade and investment that the first time I have stood to speak in the House since benefits all our nations. I commend the orders to the January 2020. During the past year and a bit, like so House. many of our constituents, I have been battling with the 3.2 pm black dog of depression. I know that so many people have, and I crave your indulgence for a small moment, James Murray (Ealing North) (Lab/Co-op): I am Madam Deputy Speaker. grateful for the opportunity to respond on behalf of the Opposition to the motion concerning these two statutory Please,if youknowsomebodywhohasnotbeenthemselves instruments. recently, reach out to them, ask them if they are okay, let them know it is okay not to be okay. Offer them help The two orders bring into effect arrangements between but, most importantly, let them know that you are there the United Kingdom and Germany and Sweden, when they are ready to talk, or if they are ready to talk. respectively,as set out in the bilateral protocol signed earlier It is hugely important that all our constituents understand this year. Both protocols amend existing arrangements they are not battling this alone. There are so many of us. between the two relevant Governments for the avoidance of double taxation and the prevention of fiscal evasion I have a few questions on these two orders, and I am with regard to taxes on income and capital gains. We delighted that somebody else, the hon. Member for Ealing will not oppose the Government on this motion. The North (James Murray), has criticisms of the explanatory protocols that the motion seeks to bring in would give notes. I have got on my high horse about this. Do not effect to certain provisions recommended by the base worry, I could talk for 30 minutes—we could be here for erosion and profit shifting, or BEPS, project to protect far longer than that—but I promise I will not. tax treaties against avoidance activities. As the Minister The explanatory notes are generally not very good. They will know, we welcome any provisions to combat tax do not give us enough information, and the specific issue avoidance and evasion. However, I would appreciate his of significant impact is a concern. The rules on explanatory addressing in his response some important questions notes in the “Ministerial Code”state what “no significant and concerns about how the changes are being introduced impact” means, but I would consider these orders to and their wider context. have a significant impact. The definition in the “Ministerial First, the total parliamentary scrutiny of these changes Code”needs to be broadened and, in general, explanatory comprises the current debate, which has three speakers notes for all Bills need to be better at explaining. We and is unlikely to last more than half an hour. This also need more impact assessments to be provided with differs greatly from the standard practice in other countries. Bills, because we need to know the impact on the public In the United States, for instance, tax treaties must be sector and the private sector,and on charitable organisations. considered by a fully staffed congressional committee. The definition needs to be much wider than if a measure That raises an important question about transparency meets a certain threshold of millions. and accountability as we find parliamentary scrutiny The SNP supports these orders, and we look forward lacking. Perhaps, however, we should not be surprised to the UK working more closely with other EU partners, by this Government seeking to avoid scrutiny. Just last including, in the future, an independent Scotland. On week, the Government voted down a Labour amendment the tax evasion issues that may occur as a result, the to scrutinise the impact of their policies on tax avoidance UK, even though it has the treaty general anti-avoidance and evasion. That sense of a lack of transparency is rules, still does not have a comprehensive general anti- compounded by the fact that the explanatory notes on avoidance rule for taxation. The SNP has stood on that the orders simply paraphrase the treaty changes in largely platform, talking about it on a huge number of occasions, technical language and, therefore, do little to elucidate and it is unfortunate that the Government have not yet the matter for a wider audience. been willing to come forward with comprehensive Inaccessible explanations are an obstacle to full, open regulation, particularly when HMRC is saying there accountability. The explanatory notes explain that the was a tax gap in 2018-19 of £35 billion, which is 5.6% of protocols will have the total tax liability. We need to have that rule. “no, or no significant, impact on business, charities or voluntary The shadow Minister spoke about minimum corporate bodies.” tax levels and the Biden plan. It is important that the Will the Minister explain what that implies about the UK Government, instead of attempting to water down revenue implications of the protocols being enacted? these proposals, stand with them, support the need for a Finally, as these orders relate to international tax minimum corporate tax level and, for once, stand to avoidance and evasion, will the Minister further clarify, strengthen international tax law rather than to weaken for the avoidance of any doubt, whether the Chancellor it. The UK Government have not, in many recent years, backs plans for a global minimum corporate tax rate, as taken the lead on this. If we are to be this wonderful, proposed by the US President. The Financial Secretary independent nation that the Conservatives suggest that may recall that I asked him this question in Committee we are, it is right that we should take the lead on tax of the whole House on the Finance Bill last week. measures and say absolutely that we support the minimum He said that the Government corporate tax level and that we are backing it to ensure “welcome the renewed commitment that the US Administration a better, more level playing field internationally. have made in this area”.—[Official Report, 20 April 2021; Vol. 692, c. 914.] Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): I am That was not quite a yes to a global minimum corporate sure the whole House will have heard what the hon. tax rate, so again I put a very simple question to the Lady said. She is courageous to give her advice here in Minister: does the Chancellor back the plans proposed the Chamber, and people would do well to listen to her by the US President? advice. We are glad to see her back. 417 Capital Gains Tax 28 APRIL 2021 Capital Gains Tax 418

3.10 pm The hon. Member for Ealing North raised the wider question of scrutiny. If I may say so, the argument Jesse Norman: I very much thank the two hon. Members would have more force if any other Opposition Members who have spoken in the debate. May I start, Madam had chosen to speak in this debate and to exercise that Deputy Speaker, by associating myself very much with scrutiny. I think that in general, these matters, for the the remarks that you made to the hon. Member for reasons I have described, are tolerably well understood. Aberdeen North (Kirsty Blackman)? I think it is absolutely We have a multilateral instrument, the measures follow in order and right for her to bring this very important a common format, and opportunity is given to Members issue back to the House. To do so in such a personal across the House, including from the Opposition parties, way only gives it additional force. I doubt that there is a to offer scrutiny. They can choose to exercise that or not. Member of this House whose own life has not been affected in one way or another by the concerns that she In relation to revenue, the hon. Gentleman will see describes—the black dog of depression or whatever it that the explanatory notes say that there are no new tax may be—either personally or among their family or burdens imposed by these measures. In a way, that is as friends. The diversity of opinion in this House is something it should be, because their purpose is to secure and we all welcome, but so too should there be diversity in safeguard trade and to prevent abuse; they are not, in our recognition of other people and their feelings and and of themselves, tax revenue-raising measures. suffering, so I very much thank her for that. Finally, the hon. Gentleman asked about the global The hon. Lady raised a question that the hon. Member minimum tax rate and whether I would expand on my for Ealing North (James Murray) also raised about remarks in Committee of the whole House. I am not explanatory notes. Both Members will have seen that, going to do that, because I do not think it is appropriate actually, both these measures have quite full explanatory for Ministers to comment on tax policy in flight, as it memorandums associated with them. Of course, there were. We have said we very much welcome the proactive is always a balance to be struck between the depth and stance that the Biden Administration are taking towards detail into which an explanatory memorandum goes this issue. We have been a very strong advocate for these and the desire not to provide so much detail that it wider measures—the two pillars, pillar one and pillar becomes illegible or incomprehensible to a normal reader. two—in the OECD and the G20. I know the Chancellor I think the point is constantly right to be borne in mind feels strongly about the importance of our leadership of that we should be as clear and explicit as possible on the G7 as a way of consolidating this progress in tax. these matters. The point is very well made. It is a point Kirsty Blackman: Will the Minister give way? that we have pushed very hard, and certainly I and colleagues have pushed very hard with Her Majesty’s Jesse Norman: I am just winding up. If the hon. Lady Revenue and Customs in the work that it does more does not mind, I will finish up. We will therefore continue widely on guidance. In this case, because these measures to press forward on this issue. sit alongside a host of other instruments, including the Question put and agreed to. multilateral instrument, which was debated in the House, it is certainly true that there is a degree of scrutiny and CAPITAL GAINS TAX awareness—or there could be a degree of scrutiny and awareness—associated with them. Resolved, The hon. Member for Aberdeen North also mentioned That the draft Double Taxation Relief (Sweden) Order 2021, which was laid before this House on 15 March, be approved.—(Jesse the question of a general anti-avoidance rule. I am sure Norman.) she knows that it has been an important feature of our approach to double taxation agreements that we have Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): I will included a principal purpose test in tax treaties, either very briefly suspend the House, for two minutes, in through bilateral negotiation or through the multilateral order that arrangements can be made for the next item instrument. That itself is a very important, wide anti-abuse of business. measure, developed through the BEPS project, which protects a treaty against the abuse of its provisions. We 3.16 pm are deploying it widely across double taxation agreements, Sitting suspended. and it has much of the force of the measure that she describes. 419 28 APRIL 2021 Insolvency 420

Insolvency protections in the 2020 Act should be extended over a longer period of time. I think this is now the third 3.18 pm time—possibly the fourth time—that we have come together to extend them, on each occasion, unfortunately, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, causing real uncertainty and worry for businesses in the Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully): I beg to run-up to each previous expiry date. move, As the economy reopens and restrictions ease, it is That the Corporate Insolvency and Governance Act 2020 right that these measures are kept under review. Through (Coronavirus) (Extension of the Relevant Period) Regulations the crisis, we have called on Ministers to ensure that 2021 (S.I., 2021, No. 375), dated 22 March 2021, a copy of which was laid before this House on 24 March, be approved. economic support matches the public health measures in place. While we have seen welcome support for It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, workers through the furlough, there have still been gaps Madam Deputy Speaker, as we discuss this important in Government support that they have repeatedly failed extension on the Floor of the House. It is now more to address. There is a cash crisis facing firms with high than a year since the emergence of covid-19, and the ongoing overheads but still no income coming in and Government have consistently taken the swift action those excluded from all Government support, and little needed to save lives and mitigate damage to the economy. or no help for those sectors still closed and likely to be The Government’s successful roll-out of the vaccine closed or uncertain for some time, such as travel, large programme and the implementation of the Government’s events and weddings, and the visitor economy. four-step road map out of lockdown are both reasons for cautious optimism that we will soon enjoy a return As I have said before, we are very concerned about to normality. To date, in excess of 33 million people the levels of debt facing businesses, whether that is have had a vaccination, and the British public have risen through the loans they have taken, the VAT they have to the challenge of suppressing the spread of the virus deferred or the rent holiday they have had, but soon by sticking to the rules, getting tested when necessary have to start repaying. These measures are welcome in and following the guidance on hands, face, space and staving off creditors, but they just kick the can down the letting fresh air in. road, and do little to change the fundamentals facing so many firms of large covid debt and low or no takings We are not out of the woods yet, however, and the while the fight against covid continues. The bombshell emergence of new strains of the virus means that this is that businesses face remains real, and that is why Labour not the time to become complacent. Social distancing has argued for a student loan-style scheme, in which measures introduced to limit the spread of the virus and covid debt can be repaid as businesses grow, so that we help to save lives continue to have an effect on business, do not see waves of insolvencies. There is nothing in the and the Government recognise that. Although most provisions today to deal with those fundamentals. businesses have been able to reopen, many continue to face uncertainty and financial difficulties. Therefore, an Turning to the Corporate Insolvency and Governance extension is needed to the duration of the temporary Act provisions in general, it is clear that some of the insolvency measures currently in place for the protection issues we have warned about are coming home to roost, they provide. particularly when we look at the impact of Greensill Capital’s administration on the Gupta Family Group These regulations extend until 30 June the suspension and Liberty Steel. The Government have consistently of serving statutory demands and the restriction of ducked the need for wider reform of our insolvency filing petitions to wind up companies; the small supplier laws, particularly in providing greater protection and exemption and termination clause provisions; and the support for key industries and their workers. We argued suspension of wrongful trading liability. In addition, for and sought to amend the legislation to this effect, the modifications to the moratorium provisions and and it is not too late for the Government to act. the temporary moratorium rules are extended until 30 September 2021. It is clear from reports that the gulls are circling, and regardless of whatever judgment people make about I hope the House will agree that these regulations are GFG, the Liberty Steel plants are a critical asset to our necessary, but I assure Members that we will keep them economic and national security, and employ thousands under constant review. I commend these regulations to of highly skilled workers directly and through the supply the House. chain. The company must be given time to refinance, but if that is not successful, then the Government must 3.20 pm keep every option open and have a plan for all eventualities Lucy Powell (Manchester Central) (Lab/Co-op): Well, to save the UK steelmaking capacity and its supply here we are again. The Minister and his officials, who chain. However, our insolvency laws mean that there is have heard me make the same speech numerous times, no safe place to refinance or protect this company’s are in for a little treat today, because I am going to assets until it might be too late, all the while leaving the detour slightly from my usual remarks, which have company searching for refinancing while trying to retain centred a bit around “I told you so” on extending these the confidence of suppliers and customers, who risk the provisions. Today I also want to touch on some of the most should it fail. wider insolvency framework issues that I think are In the US, they have chapter 11 to shepherd important pertinent now. industries facing distress. There, the authorities are able I welcome the Government’s extending the safety net to wrap their arms around strategically important for businesses in distress because of the pandemic. As I companies to allow them time to resolve difficulties, said when we supported the emergency legislation last refinance or restructure. The chapter 11 process, should year, we welcome any measures that support businesses we have that here, would have created a better context that close to keep us safe. We argued then that the for the refinancing of Liberty Steel, without the spotlight 421 Insolvency 28 APRIL 2021 Insolvency 422 and falling confidence. We argued for its inclusion in and very legitimate questions have been asked about the the Corporate Insolvency and Governance Act 2020. performance of the directors of those businesses, whose Ministers could have brought forward changes on that failures have had such a disastrous impact on lives and today, but unfortunately they seem content to let the livelihoods. company fail first. We know that this has a high cost for There is also the very real question of whether companies the suppliers as well. should do more through new statutory responsibilities Even without changes to the insolvency laws, if there to protect employees’ pensions, to ensure diversity of is a political will, there could be a way. Ministers should the workforce and, of course, importantly, to address not be bystanders. They should intervene early, before their carbon footprint. I hope that the Minister will be liquidation if necessary, and that would mean that able to reassure me that these issues remain very live in workers would not lose their accrued services benefit as his Department, and I would be keen to know,specifically, well as protecting the supply chain. When the Minister if he can point me to forthcoming opportunities to gets to his feet, I hope that he will reflect on the wider press these matters further. point about how we can protect nationally important In conclusion, I encourage all those who have an businesses in future and assure us that his Government interest in the broader issue of corporate governance to will do whatever it takes to save Liberty Steel from take part in the current call for evidence on insolvency insolvency. rules. It is a great opportunity for business owners and 3.26 pm industry professionals to give their feedback on these two important areas. I hope that the imperative of Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con): putting in place excellent temporary measures to help First, I commend the Government on the UK Corporate businesses survive during the pandemic does not get in Insolvency and Governance Act 2020 and for putting in the way of consideration of the bigger picture of good place, at such speed, both temporary and permanent corporate governance. measures at such a deeply troubling time for businesses. My hon. Friend the Minister will be pleased, as I am, 3.29 pm and possibly a bit surprised, as I am, to see that statistics from the Insolvency Service show that the number of Kirsty Blackman (Aberdeen North) (SNP): It is a registered company insolvencies in March 2021 was pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for South 20% lower than in the same month in 2020 and 37% lower Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom). To pick up her than in March 2019. I certainly know of many businesses comments, it is incredibly important that we look at the in my constituency that have survived the pandemic future of corporate governance and audit. We must thanks only to the extraordinary measures put in place make sure that the report is looked at carefully so that by the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial decisions are made to ensure not just that investors can Strategy and the Treasury to help them get through. scrutinise those organisations but that consumers can In the call for evidence that is outstanding on the do so and work out whether or not they want to be performance of CIGA, it will be interesting to see involved in them on the basis of their annual report and whether feedback from businesses suggests that they audit. People would get a better idea of the risk they needed the temporary measures or the financial support, would be under if those processes were more open and or both, and to what extent. Certainly, the evidence transparent. I therefore agree wholeheartedly with the points to the fact that schemes such as bounce back comments made by the right hon. Lady. loans, the coronavirus business interruption loan scheme On the Corporate Insolvency and Governance Act and furloughing have done a critical job in protecting 2020, there is an extension for some of its provisions to lives and livelihoods. There may be the need in the the end of June this year, and an extension to September future for further flexibility and, I point out to the for other provisions. I am concerned that there have Minister, interest on coronavirus business interruption been so many extensions—30 June is very soon—that loans and potentially more support for weddings and the Government will end up having to come back with events organisations may well be needed in future to another extension. Even if the pathway that has been protect them. laid out by the Prime Minister comes to fruition, and I briefly wanted to mention the bigger picture. The even if we end up with pretty much everything going Minister will be only too aware that insolvency legislation back to normal in some ways by the end of June—I is not like the proverbial London bus—we do not have doubt that we will, by the way—it will not be a five-minute none coming along for years and then lots all at once—so job for businesses to recover. They will not be back on I worry that while there have been some good, permanent their feet immediately; they will not suddenly make up changes to the insolvency rules brought in with CIGA, the money that they have spent, or pay back the loans there are nevertheless some areas, particularly of corporate that they have had to take out during this period. They governance, where, during my time in BEIS, I was keen will not even be able to take back all their employees full to see real reform. I hope that the audit reform work time if social distancing continues, for example. I am that is under way and the forthcoming employment concerned that there is not enough time, and if the rights Bill might offer vehicles for wider corporate Government intend to make a further extension, it governance changes. In particular, I would be keen to would be useful for those organisations to be aware that have an update from the Minister on what is still being that extension is likely. I would prefer such an extension done at BEIS to consider some specific issues, such as to have been made already, but an extension to September the roles and responsibilities of directors, the speed of for all the measures would have been slightly more helpful. insolvency evaluations post-fact and consideration of We have spoken about the impact on companies, but the responsibilities of board directors. We have seen insolvency also has an impact on the supply chain. In some major corporate failures in recent years, including particular, self-employed individuals have been missed companies such as BHS, Carillion and Thomas Cook, out of the furlough scheme, and if some of those 423 Insolvency 28 APRIL 2021 Insolvency 424

[Kirsty Blackman] cliff edge, those businesses that took out loans and have been unable to trade will need to know what the implications organisations go under, they are more likely than others are for them, their staff and, indeed, the economy as a to be hit as a result of their being part of that supply whole. Let us not forget the 7.5 million employees of the chain and their role in supporting those businesses. We ForgottenLtd, who will need to know what will happen are looking at the big picture, which is great, but I am to them, their jobs and the companies they work for concerned that there is not enough focus on the knock-on when the loans have to be repaid. impact, particularly on those groups that have been Before the Minister says that the ForgottenLtd owner- missed out and have been hit particularly hard by the managers took out loans and therefore had support, pandemic. he should note that those loans were for their business I am a representative for Aberdeen, and we have had costs, including for rates and for energy or electricity for a triple whammy of Brexit, covid and the reduction in equipment. Many owner-managers have been unable to oil prices in recent times. That affects not just the big pay themselves through furlough as they are paid dividends. companies making megabucks profits in the oil industry, Unless businesses have time to rebuild their profitability, but the smaller companies that are producing tech for they will simply be unable to restart because of the deferred renewables as well as tech for oil and gas extraction. We business rates, corporate and personal taxes and covid do not want to lose that intellectual property—that loans. tech—in renewables, and we must ensure that support There is a real problem of massive potential continues to be available, so that if big organisations unemployment and business closure unless the end of fail, despite what the Government have put in, smaller the regulations is not just the start of financial problems companies can keep going if they have the potential to induced by forced repayment—repayment that is simply become profitable in future. not possible without sufficient income having first been It would be useful if the Minister reassured me that re-established. According to the Government’sown Business the Government are not just looking at the big picture Banking Resolution Service, nearly half of small businesses but paying attention to the smaller organisations that that have taken out emergency coronavirus loans do not may not be covered by the measure, particularly in the intend to repay them, not because they do not want to light of the concerns that we have expressed on numerous but because they will not be able to do so. Are company occasions about self-employed individuals being missed owners right to be concerned that the end of the regulations out from the furlough schemes. We are concerned that will mean that business are forced to close because of an they may be missed out when we look at the future of inability to pay mounting debts and the associated legal this as well. problems of trading insolvently? The Government declined to support the excluded 3.34 pm groups, but it was not because of a lack of money. Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab) [V]: As the Minister Billions of pounds were available for friends of the said, we are not out of the woods yet. There is a very Health and Social Care Secretary, for the International long way to go, and it is right that we protect businesses Trade Secretary’s adviser and for £7,000-a-day consultants that would be viable were it not for the pandemic and to a centralised contact tracing system that still does the resulting loss of revenue. These regulations play not work, and having the Chancellor or the Prime their part, but as the long-term impact of these challenges Minister’s phone number meant paydays for moguls in begin to make themselves known, it is clear that these the realm of millions of pounds. Will money now be measures are only part of the answer. available so that businesses can start the process of There are significant question marks over how the recovery, their staff can keep their jobs after furlough Government plan to support businesses in the long ends, and debt repayments can be delayed until they can term. For example, in the absence of an impact assessment, be afforded? Will the Government adopt Labour’s it is unclear which businesses are benefiting from the suggestion of allowing businesses to wait to repay loans exemption on the rules about wrongful trading. What until they are making enough money to do so, in a way contribution does the Minister believe the regulations similar to that adopted for the repayment of student loans? have made in enabling businesses to recover? After the More than 1 million small businesses do not expect to imminent end of the lockdown restrictions, businesses recover from this pandemic, which is why we need to will continue to need support to recover, and it would know where the regulations fit into the strategy for be helpful to understand whether these regulations have economic recovery. Millions of microbusinesses and worked up to now and what the likely impact of their owners of small and medium-sized business are trying removal will be. to figure out how they are going to put food on the table Three million is the estimated number of individuals and pay their workers. More needs to be done to give in business who have been wholly or partly excluded businesses stability and security than just extending the from financial support by this Government over the existing provisions again and again. That means looking past year. That includes around 2 million owner-managers, at proper business support and enabling smaller firms, also known as the ForgottenLtd, as well as the self- microbusinesses,soletradersandself-employedworkers—all employed, freelancers, women who became pregnant of them—direct access to Government contracts. That and people who changed jobs at the wrong time. Let us is how the US Small Business Administration operates. remember that half of the excluded groups have not Why not do the same in the United Kingdom? even been able to claim universal credit. Does the Minister share my concern that, through Similarly, we need to know the impact on businesses ’s access to the Chancellor, Lex Greensill repaying the emergency coronavirus loans—CBILS, made so much progress in proposing invoice factoring coronavirus large business interruption loans and bounce in the public sector? The public sector is supposed to back loans. As we head closer to the end of the lockdown follow the prompt payment code. Why were Ministers 425 Insolvency 28 APRIL 2021 Insolvency 426 and officials even considering invoice factoring? Will as well. They are all hugely important businesses and sectors the Government use the recovery from the crisis as a that are vital for our recovery. We are working on all reason to revisit the prompt payment code’s effectiveness, those areas. We have the global travel taskforce. My and particularly to ensure that smaller firms and colleagues in the Department for Transport are working microbusinesses are paid in 30 days? Direct procurement on international travel. I am working with colleagues on and payment in 30 days for small and microbusinesses weddings. The Under-Secretary of State for Digital, are just two ways in which firms can be supported, Culture, Media and Sport, my hon. Friend the Member alongside a delay in debt repayment. I hope the Minister for Mid Worcestershire (Nigel Huddleston), is working will respond to those suggestions. I also hope he will on events and domestic tourism. All of these areas will empower the Small Business Commissioner with the be hugely important not just for the economy as a proper resources to insist on prompt payment, including whole, but to get our towns and cities back open again. in the public sector. As Minister for London, that is something that I feel The Minister could do worse than look at the United and see on a day-to-day basis. States, where they know the value of small businesses to The hon. Lady talked about Greensill and Liberty. the economy. The US Federal Reserve bank found that Clearly, there are concerns here that need to be addressed, 30% of small businesses in the US—that is 9 million of but, obviously, speculation about Liberty Steel and them—did not expect to survive 2021 without assistance, other businesses can in itself cause uncertainty to investors, which is why the US Small Business Administration has employees, and people seeking to work with those been tasked with supporting small businesses to build companies. We are monitoring the situation. We are back better, alongside President Biden’s American Rescue engaging with Liberty Steel, and we are engaging with Plan Act. In the UK, more than 1 million small businesses the unions. I know that the owners of Liberty Steel are face similar concerns. Would it not be great if the UK seeking a market solution, but we will continue to monitor had a small business administration to look after that situation. We are also engaging with the sector, microbusinesses, the self-employed and SMEs? As the with trade unions and with the devolved Administrations Minister should know, it is vital to distinguish between to make sure that we can develop a long-term, sustainable those fundamentally different types of business. The future for the UK steel industry, because it clearly has US Small Business Administration shows clear intent an incredibly important role in the UK. to support smaller businesses as part of a concerted and I say to my right hon. Friend the Member for South thought-out plan for the long term, not just a quick fix. Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom), erstwhile Secretary The excluded groups, the ForgottenLtd owner-managers, of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, microbusinesses, sole traders and partnership businesses that we want to make sure that, within our Department, can all be viable again, but they need a plan that goes we are building on her excellent work in the areas of beyond the end of measures such as the Corporate audit reform and corporate governance. She rightly Insolvency and Governance Act 2020. The failure to pointed out some significant failures, including BHS plan will lead to disaster for millions of people and just and Carillion to name just two, and we want to make add to the significant problems that we have already sure that we can work on that within our audit reform seen as we come out of the crisis and into recovery. work. We have already published a consultation to enhance the UK’s audit control and regulation, and we 3.42 pm will make sure that we have full debates in this place as we bring those proposals forward for scrutiny in Parliament PaulScully:IthankMembersfortheirvaluablecontributions and in terms of legislation. to this debate—and, indeed, to the other, general debate Let me turn now to the hon. Member for Aberdeen I seem to have been hearing about coronavirus support North (Kirsty Blackman). I would like to pass on my beyond the regulations. Members have highlighted the thanks to others who noted her comments on depression importance of the measures that the regulations extend in a previous debate. It is so, so important to speak out. and the necessity of extending them so that businesses I really welcome her personalised appeal to people, can continue to benefit from them. making sure that they know that it is okay not to be I welcome the return to working with the hon. Member okay. They were wise words, and words that we must all for Manchester Central (Lucy Powell). We are in a take on board. There has been a mental health aspect to grander setting than usual, but the conversation remains. the lockdown. Obviously, business uncertainty plays a I understand her concern about the fact that we have part. There are lots of businesses, small and large, that I come back to extend these regulations, but it is important seeandhearfromonaday-to-daybasis,whichareincredibly to remember that they contain some important powers stressed and incredibly worried. I valued her words. on things such as wrongful trading and the moratorium, The hon. Lady talked about companies struggling to and that we are holding a lot of things in stasis. It is get back on their feet. Clearly, that is the case. I do not right that we get the balance right between giving want to get into a wider debate about coronavirus businesses the certainty that she rightly asks for and support, but we realise that, with many of these measures, using Government interventions in these matters sparingly there is the risk of cliff edges, and we will continue to and continuing to scrutinise them in this place. I would work through those and to flex to make sure that we can rather that we come back and do our work regularly support businesses. She talked about smaller organisations than overstep in respect of these powers and intervene as well, especially around tech and IP. Yes, we must too much in the economy. It is important to keep an eye make sure that we are working on those, too. on these things. Over the past year,businesses have faced an exceptionally The hon. Lady raised the issue of those businesses challenging time, with many unable to trade, or their that have been excluded, or that have been coming back ability to trade at full capacity restricted owing to social with requests for more support, including the travel distancing measures. These regulations will provide the sector, the wedding sector and the visitor economy much needed support for businesses as we continue 427 Insolvency 28 APRIL 2021 Insolvency 428

[Paul Scully] That is totally incorrect. You will remember, Madam Deputy Speaker, that in an extraordinary sitting of this with the Government’sfour-step road map out of lockdown, House of Commons on 30 December 2020, the Leader allowing them to concentrate their best efforts on reopening of the Opposition and the whole Labour party voted or continuing to trade and building on the foundations for the Brexit deal agreed by the Government and the for economic recovery in the UK. We want to get to that EU. As limited as it was, we backed it and avoided a economic recovery. no-deal scenario. Do you agree, Madam Deputy Speaker, Finally, let me answer the hon. Member for Sefton that it is vital that the Prime Minister returns to the Central (Bill Esterson). When he was looking to throw House today to swiftly correct the record? this open to a wider debate, I think he missed the strengthening of our prompt payment code, which was Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): done in consultation with the signatories to the payment I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her point of order. I code, and indeed the fact that we have got more to sign hope she will appreciate that it is not really a point of up to that as well. When he was looking for a wider order for me, but I am sure that the Treasury Bench will debate about coronavirus, he also missed the plan for have heard what she has said and will report it back in growth, which does exactly what it says on the tin. It the usual way, through the usual channels. The hon. looks beyond these measures. It is a plan and, funnily Lady has obviously also placed it on the record by raising enough, it is a plan for growth, which goes beyond the point of order in the way that she has. 30 June. Careful consideration has been given to extending Wewill have a short two-minute suspension for cleaning these temporary measures, and the Government will before the next business. continue to monitor the situation closely. I thank hon. Members for their valuable contributions 3.51 pm to the debate. I commend the regulations to the House. Sitting suspended. Question put and agreed to. Ordered, That the Corporate Insolvency and Governance Act 2020 BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (TODAY) (Coronavirus) (Extension of the Relevant Period) Regulations 2021 (S.I., 2021, No. 375), dated 22 March 2021, a copy of which Ordered, was laid before this House on 24 March, be approved. That, at this day’s sitting, the Speaker shall put the Question on the motion in the name of Keir Starmer relating to the Lucy Powell (Manchester Central) (Lab/Co-op): On Immigration (Guidance on Detention of Vulnerable Persons) Regulations (SI, 2021, No. 184) not later than 90 minutes after the a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. During Prime commencement of proceedings on the motion for this Order; the Minister’s questions today, the Prime Minister claimed business on that motion may be proceeded with at any hour, that though opposed; and Standing Order No. 41A (Deferred divisions) “last night our friends in the European Union voted to approve shall not apply.—(Scott Mann.) our Brexit deal, which he opposed.” 429 28 APRIL 2021 Immigration 430

Immigration and detained for longer. That is the view not only of the Opposition and various specialist stakeholders, but of 3.53 pm the Government. Holly Lynch (Halifax) (Lab) [V]: I beg to move, In response to concerns raised, the Home Office admitted that some individuals might, as a result of the That the Immigration (Guidance on Detention of Vulnerable Persons) Regulations 2021 (S.I., 2021, No. 184), dated 23 February changes, be more likely to be detained or have their 2021, a copy of which was laid before this House on 25 February 2021, detention continued. Why, therefore, do the Government be revoked. continue to press ahead when they are well aware of the On behalf of my party, let me say that it is entirely right damage and distress that will cause, particularly considering that we have the opportunity to debate in the House of that they seek to deliver the changes through a statutory Commons the incredibly serious changes proposed in instrument considered under the negative procedure— this motion. Quite frankly, it is remarkable that the deeming them unworthy of debate and scrutiny? Government sought to introduce these changes as a I thank the hon. Member for North East Bedfordshire negative statutory instrument—through the back door (Richard Fuller), who secured a Westminster Hall debate without any opportunity for parliamentary scrutiny on this very issue just yesterday. That demonstrates that at all. there are serious concerns about the proposals across This statutory instrument will remove protections in the House. I listened carefully to the Minister’s response the Modern Slavery Act 2015 that sought to prevent to the debate, and it seems that the Government seek to potentialvictimsof traffickingfrombeingheldunnecessarily justify the changes by saying that a similar protection in immigration detention. The changes are due to come will be provided through casework guidance and training, into effect on 25 May, following an extremely limited which we have not yet seen and can only trust will be consultation with a select few groups, which had just published in due course. two weeks to respond. We also expect that changes will be made to the The consultation, which did not seek to engage with caseworker guidance, such as the increase in requirements any trafficking survivor groups, was described as “poor for medical evidence, which will further weaken the practice”by the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. protections for victims of trafficking. For example, Given that the changes are being made alongside those there are plans to introduce quality standards for external outlined in the Government’s new plan for immigration, medical evidence in the adults at risk policy, including published last month, we are gravely concerned by the proposals to limit the weight of remote assessment, and Government’s desire to erode the rights and protections a stipulation that healthcare professionals should have for victims of some of the most heinous examples of all the immigration documents and medical records exploitation. relating to conditions, which a potential victim might not be comfortable disclosing or be able to disclose. To be clear, the proposals will amend the adults at risk in immigration detention statutory guidance by Yesterday, the Minister emphasised his pride at this removing paragraph 18 on trafficking cases. That means country’s leading role in identifying and protecting victims that, from 25 May, decisions about the detention of of modern slavery, but he also stressed that a rebalancing potential victims of human trafficking will be made is required—if I have understood correctly—between withoutreferencetotheModernSlaveryAct2015guidance, protections for victims and immigration controls. He which made it clear that potential victims of trafficking identified what he said is, by design, an “extremely low are automatically considered unsuitable for detention threshold” for a reasonable-grounds modern slavery unless there are public order reasons that militate against decision whereby there is a requirement only to suspect, that. As a result, a decision will now be assessed within rather than to prove, someone is a potential victim of themuchbroaderadultsatriskframework,whichconsiders trafficking, and explained that the Government are a range of vulnerabilities, with the latest figure suggesting looking to make adjustments to that, as set out in the that about 39% of those detained in immigration detention new plan for immigration. are considered adults at risk. I am sorry to say that all that is delivering a downgrading A range of immigration factors is considered as part of those protections, which we could have been proud of the decision-making process and those factors go far of. That is an erosion of existing safeguards and it will wider than public order. They can include a history of undoubtedly increase the risk of vulnerable individuals offending,butadditionallywhethertheperson’simmigration being retraumatised in detention. history includes having entered the country irregularly, We are concerned not only by the implications of this not having claimed asylum immediately, or having failed statutory instrument but by the way in which the to comply with Home Office reporting requirements. Government have sought to circumvent good practice Often, having been a victim of trafficking leaves such and due diligence in their processes. The consultation individuals unable to satisfy those requirements. Being period lasted just two weeks during the summer of last subject to coercive control commonly results in an year, without the presence of specialist stakeholders individual entering the country outside approved routes and organisations. The Secondary Legislation Scrutiny or being unable to claim asylum immediately.Furthermore, Committee has aptly described the consultation as “poor to benefit from a stronger protection against detention practice”. Shockingly, the Government did not consult once brought under the adults at risk guidance, potential the Independent Anti-Slavery Commissioner or her office victims of trafficking with a positive initial reasonable- on these proposals. I very much hope that the Minister grounds decision will now need to provide additional has read Dame Sara Thornton’s letter dated 19 April professional evidence demonstrating not only that they outlining a range of issues with the proposals. are an adult at risk, but that detention is likely to cause As many will already be aware, survivors of modern them harm. Therefore, the primary impact of the changes slavery are at increased risk of long-term depression, will be that potential victims of trafficking are detained, anxiety, post-traumatic stress disorder, suicide attempts 431 Immigration 28 APRIL 2021 Immigration 432

[Holly Lynch] That is, I think, one of the highest numbers, if not the highest, in Europe, and it is many times higher than in and health complications. Last week, the Royal College comparably sized European countries. So there is no of Psychiatrists published a statement saying that it question but that the United Kingdom leads Europe in believes that detention centres are likely to precipitate a its work on protecting victims of modern slavery. We significant deterioration in mental health in most cases, have also embarked on an ambitious national referral greatly increasing both the suffering of the individual mechanism transformation programme to do even more and the risk of suicide and self-harm. In 2017 the work than we are doing already. We have, moreover, Government promised a scheme called Places of Safety launched a review of the 2014 modern slavery strategy to allow survivors to access their rights soon after being that will allow us to build further on the progress made. identified in settings such as police raids or labour Although our commitment to cracking down on these inspections.That would have given survivors an opportunity appalling crimes remains undiminished, being recognised to access legal representation and advocacy while at as a potential victim of modern slavery does not and should their most vulnerable, as well as increasing the number not automatically result in being granted immigration of successful trafficking referrals to decision makers. status in the UK or immunity from immigration Sadly, the Places of Safety scheme was never delivered, proceedings. There may be potential victims or victims and as a result thousands of suspected slavery survivors of modern slavery who have no lawful basis to remain were identified but never referred for support or decision in the UK, some of whom will be dangerous foreign making. I would very much like to know what has national offenders, and about whom we are faced with happened to that scheme, so will the Minister clarify decisions about using detention lawfully as a means of that? An additional concern is the Government’s decision securing their removal. That is especially true when other to cancel the pilot schemes exploring community alternatives options, including voluntary return, have been exhausted. to detention. I hope the Minister can also give some Where we are faced with these decisions it is important clarity to that crazy decision. that they are made in a way that is consistent, fair and These changes represent a significant downgrading balanced. of the protections against detention currently given to The shadow Minister mentioned detention, and it is potential victims of human trafficking. The Government worth saying that the use of detention for immigration say they want to introduce this statutory instrument so purposes has been reduced significantly. The number of that the adults at risk policy can be used as the single people in immigration detention in December 2019, mechanism for vulnerable individuals, in order to clamp before the pandemic started, was about half the level down on the policy anomaly that currently exists. To reported in September 2017. Moreover, of those entering perceive such legislative change purely in terms of fixing immigration detention in 2019, I believe, from memory, a policy anomaly fails to acknowledge the devastating that 39% spent only a week and about 75% spent less impact it will have on vulnerable victims and represents than 28 days in immigration detention. It is used sparingly thisGovernment’sconcerningapproachtowiderimmigration and only where necessary to deliver our immigration policy. rules properly. The Government have previously stressed that a reduction The rules we are discussing today rectify an anomaly in the number of people in detention is a key aspect of in the existing policy to bring detention decisions for the series of reforms they are making across the detention potential victims of modern slavery within the scope of system, yet this statutory instrument will achieve the the adults at risk policy. That is the policy we use to exact opposite. Regrettably,it represents the Government’s make detention decisions for vulnerable people, including failure to offer a solution that is compassionate, fair those with serious physical or mental health disabilities. and deserving of vulnerable victims of human trafficking. At present, the adults at risk policy requires detention decisions for potential victims of modern slavery to be 4.2 pm made with reference to separate Modern Slavery Act 2015 statutory guidance. That guidance does not steer The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the decision makers in how to balance a person’s vulnerability Home Department (Chris Philp): I thank the hon. Member against other considerations when making detention for Halifax (Holly Lynch) for her speech. As she said, decisions, but makes reference only to public order, as this matter was debated just yesterday in a Westminster the shadow Minister said. Hall debate that was attended by one colleague. We believe that the adults at risk policy, which already Let me start by reiterating the Government’scommitment caters to all kinds of other very serious vulnerabilities, to tackling modern slavery. The UK has led the world in is the appropriate framework for detention decisions for protecting victims of this heinous crime. We will continue potential victims of modern slavery. It allows for a to support those who have suffered intolerable abuse at nuanced and balanced assessment of detention decisions the hands of criminals and traffickers, and we will do to be made, which the current policy does not allow. It everything in our power to ensure that perpetrators face also supports our desire for a clear and consistent approach justice. In a further demonstration of our commitment to safeguarding in immigration detention decision making to supporting victims of modern slavery, the new modern and will enable decisions for potential victims to be slavery victim care contract went live in January this made in line with those for other categories of vulnerable year, with an estimated whole-life cost of £379 million individuals. To be absolutely clear, the vulnerability and over its five-year lifetime. It will deliver a better service risks associated with potential victims of modern slavery that it is needs-based and will do even more to look will categorically continue to be fully accounted for and after individual victims. fully considered. It is worth mentioning that last year there were about Let me be clear: these regulations will not weaken the 10,000 claims by victims of modern slavery and we protections afforded to potential victims of modern made about 10,000 positive reasonable grounds decisions. slavery. The adults at risk immigration detention policy 433 Immigration 28 APRIL 2021 Immigration 434 is well-established—it has been in place for at least five victims. Potential victims are, and should continue to years. It enables officials to identify vulnerable adults be, entitled to a proper recovery period during which and make decisions about the appropriateness of their they cannot be removed and therefore cannot generally detention, balancing all relevant considerations. The be detained, thanks to the Modern Slavery Act guidance. adults at risk policy strengthens the presumption in Unless these regulations are revoked today, other immigration policy that a person will not be detained immigration considerations will potentially be prioritised. where they may be particularly vulnerable to harm in An irregular immigration history, which many victims detention. of trafficking will have, may mean a victim being locked Moreover,we do recognise and will continue to recognise up, and the standard of evidence of potential harm in the specific protections afforded to those in receipt of a detention required of them will be ramped up. In short, positive reasonable grounds decision, in accordance more victims of trafficking will be detained and more with the European convention on action against trafficking will be detained for longer—something the Government in human beings. All those protections will, of course, do not even seem to dispute. That means more potential be respected, and I can also assure the House that victims suffering real and serious harm to their mental caseworkers and other Home Office staff will receive health. That is utterly against the Government’s stated the appropriate guidance and training so that they are objective in the guidance, and it is against their obligation able to properly take into account those special protections to assist victims in their physical, psychological and social for potential victims of modern slavery. We fully accept recovery. that those specific considerations exist. We recognise In response to these very serious arguments, the that in some circumstances an individual’s history may Government seem to provide two arguments of their have been influenced by their trafficking or their previous own. The first seems to justify the regulations on what modern slavery experiences, and that will most certainly amounts to little more than tidying up or administrative be reflected in guidance and in subsequent decision convenience: why burden officials with two systems of making. Let me also be clear that every decision is taken statutory guidance when one will do? The Government individually, on a case by case basis, and there is a point out that potential victims of trafficking are the presumption against detention where there is particular only group of people for whom such a special provision vulnerability to harm. Those two things should give the exists, and they call that a policy anomaly requiring House a great deal of reassurance on these points. correction, but these additional protections are absolutely In conclusion, as I have set out, modern slavery is a justified, given what we know and understand about despicable crime. The UK is leading Europe in identifying trafficking and the potential consequences of detention and protecting victims and going after perpetrators. for such people. This is not a policy anomaly but a The changes we are contemplating today make use of a perfectly reasonable, proportionate response to the specific well-established, effective policy for protecting vulnerable dangers that face trafficking victims. If anything requires people and enable a rounded and balanced decision to correction, it is the mainstream adults at risk policy into be taken in these difficult cases. which the Government want to throw trafficking victims. We know that it is overly burdensome and fails too 4.10 pm many adults at risk. Let us fix that system, not meddle with the additional protections offered to trafficking Stuart C. McDonald (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and victims. Kirkintilloch East) (SNP) [V]: Scottish National party The other Government argument appears to assert MPs are fully behind this motion to revoke, and I that there has been some evidence of abuse of the system, support the arguments that the shadow Minister has set through false claims of trafficking designed to avoid out. As well as thanking the hon. Member for North detention. The answer to that it is not to make genuine East Bedfordshire (Richard Fuller), who secured yesterday’s victims suffer, as these regulations will, but to tackle the debate, I want to thank the right hon. Member for abuse head-on. It is the Home Office itself that assesses Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) for his work who is a victim of trafficking, and the answer is to invest on this, and I pay tribute to all survivor groups and in doing that better and faster. Why is it taking 456 days others working in this field who alerted MPs to the for potential victims to get positive grounds decisions? significance and consequences of these regulations. These That is where the Home Office should look to weed out might be short regulations, but they are also deeply any abuse, rather than throwing victims under a bus. worrying regulations that could have severe impacts on Even if the Minister does not accept our analysis of trafficking survivors, and the so-called consultation on the system as it stands, at the very least he should accept them was a pretty abysmal exercise altogether. that if we are going to put everyone into one system, we As we have heard, the goal of the statutory guidance should have a wide-ranging consultation and debate on on adults at risk in immigration detention is that it will, how that system is working, what needs to be changed in conjunction with other reforms, lead to a reduction and what a better system could look like. However, in the number of vulnerable people being detained, and instead of proper debate and consultation, we have had a reduction in the duration of detention before removal. “poor practice”, as the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny However, these regulations will have the opposite effect, Committee said. After two years of Home Office policy because they remove crucial protections provided to development, a small group of stakeholders had two those with positive reasonable grounds decisions. No weeks during the August summer holidays to feed back. longer will the detention of potential victims of trafficking The whole process was hush-hush, with those involved be considered with reference to the separate Modern not allowed to share the proposals beyond a select few. Slavery Act 2015 statutory guidance; instead, the process Those lucky enough to participate were largely ignored. is to be merged into the overall adults at risk system. This so-called targeted engagement failed to consult This means a serious dilution of the protections against relevant groups, including, as I understand it, the detention currently afforded to potential trafficking Government’sown modern slavery strategy implementation 435 Immigration 28 APRIL 2021 Immigration 436

[Stuart C. McDonald] crimes that they were forcibly trafficked to commit in this country. I cite the recent examples from many of group or the Independent Anti-Slavery Commissioner. our constituencies of the Vietnamese young people who WendyWilliams’Windrushreviewdemandedthatconsultation have been trafficked into cannabis farms in the UK. on changes to policy should be Many of those who are trafficked and then convicted of “meaningful, offering informed proposals and openly seeking crimes lack access to legal advice and support even to advice and challenge.” explain their circumstances and case. The consultation did nothing of the sort, and a bad piece The Government appear to be arguing that the threshold of secondary legislation that will harm victims of trafficking of reasonable grounds for determining whether someone is the result. That is why these regulations should be has been trafficked is too low. Under the Council of revoked. Europe convention on action against trafficking, the threshold was deliberately set low to ensure that people 4.14 pm are identified. I believe we have an international obligation John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab) [V]: I to uphold that standard under the convention. People find it hard to believe that we are having this debate who are referred into the system are referred, as the today,and that this delegated legislation has been introduced Minister knows, by first responders, who are professionally at all. Emotionally, many Members of the House will trained and authorised by the Government. In detention, find it hard to take, especially those of us who have virtually all the referrals come from the Home Office taken any interest in detention, and specifically modern itself. As the Minister said, the Government have offered slavery and trafficking, over the last two to three decades. us revised casework guidance. That has not even been After all the years of campaigning to expose modern published, yet we are expected to vote into law this slavery and trafficking, and after Parliament’sachievement statutory instrument—a leap in the dark. of the Modern Slavery Act 2015, which we are all proud If the consultation had been adequate, no Government of, this is like stepping back in time. It is a hugely could have reasonably brought forward this statutory retrograde step. After the exposure of trafficking and instrument. As other Members have said, the consultation the recoil from the policies of the hostile environment, I was extremely limited, in both who was consulted and thought we would never see this sort of legislation the timescale. Consulting for only two weeks on something again. It is shameful that it has been brought before us. so significant is a dereliction of the Government’s Have we learned nothing about the suffering that trafficking duty, particularly on openness, transparency and the imposes on people? I urge the Minister and hon. Members consideration of all reasonable factors. As others have not to support the motion, and to go back and look at said, the Home Office admitted to the Secondary Legislation some of the reports and investigations that led us to put Scrutiny Committee that more people will be held in in place extra protections for trafficking victims. detention if the instrument is approved. It will mean In 2017, Rahila Gupta—a member of Southall Black more people going into detention, but it will also be Sisters and now a famous author in my local community— more difficult for people to get out of detention. wrote the book “Enslaved: The New British Slavery”. It We need to recall the people we are talking about. was reported extensively at the time, and it shook many These people are trafficked, exploited and abused, physically, of us to the core with its descriptions of trafficking and sexually and mentally. They are extremely vulnerable. the impact on our fellow human beings. Many other They are isolated and confused, often even lacking the reports then followed, and we learned something of the ability to speak English, and they are suspicious of scale of trafficking and its consequences in this country. authority. Often, they have been emotionally abused to Yesterday,in Westminster Hall, the Government seemed the extent that they are traumatised, and many suffer to claim that the reason for this legislation was that the from post-traumatic stress disorder. These are the people system was being abused somehow. No evidence for that that this statutory instrument will increasingly force claim has been published by the Home Office, and we into detention. And let us be clear: we know now that, have seen no independent assessment of the claim or in detention, there is little access to legal advice or to data that the Government may want to bring forward to emotional or health support, so it is often very difficult argue this case. What we do know, however—this is on for these people to communicate their circumstances the basis of research backed by the Home Secretary and and their case. undertaken in 2020 by Justice and Care and the Centre What does detention mean? Well, this is the reality of for Social Justice—is that there are estimated to be detention. I have two detention centres in my constituency: more than 100,000 victims of modern slavery in the Harmondsworth and Colnbrook. I have been visiting UK. In 2020, only 3,000 people were positively identified Harmondsworth for more than 30 years. Years ago, it as survivors of slavery in the second stage of the decision- was a couple of Nissen huts, with no more than about a making process. dozen people detained there. Now we have what are, I contend that the Government’s main worry should effectively, two prison-style buildings housing anything be their failure to identify and make safe the vast between 800 and 1,000 detainees. majority of people who have been trafficked into this These detention centres are notorious. Detainees have country. The Government should concentrate on that, died, with accusations of neglect, lack of care and rather than on unsubstantiated allegations of abuse in abuse. Perhaps the Minister will remember the 83-year-old the system. With no data published to prove it, the man who was taken from detention to Hillingdon Hospital Government have argued that over the last 12 months, and died still in handcuffs. On two occasions, riots have there has been a surge in foreign national offenders broken out, with Harmondsworth being burned down. claiming to be victims of trafficking to disrupt immigration Detainees get lost in the system, too, with examples proceedings. That represents a complete failure to of some being detained for long periods, trapped in understand everything that we have learned about how detention. The irony is that most will eventually be many of those who are convicted are convicted of released and allowed to settle, becoming valuable members 437 Immigration 28 APRIL 2021 Immigration 438 of our community. The moral of this story is that we The United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees detain too many people unnecessarily and in unacceptable estimates that there are currently 79.5 million forcibly conditions. I believe that, in years to come, people will displaced persons around the world. I have raised this look back on this system with incredulity but also disgust. issue on many occasions and cited that some of these I believe that this legislation, in addition to increasing are the most vulnerable people from the most difficult the number of victims of trafficking in detention, will backgrounds; it burdens me when I hear about them. deter victims from coming forward. It will be used by Many countries detain asylum seekers in detention traffickers to discourage victims from escaping. If the centres while their applications are processed or following SI is passed, traffickers will say to victims, with some a decision to refuse them protection. At present, the accuracy,“If you try to escape, you’ll be locked up anyway total number of third country nationals held in immigration in a detention centre or prison.” detention in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in the year ending June 2020 is 698. I I believe that, if this House allows the statutory understand that the last year has been an incredibly instrument to go on to the statute book, it will be seen difficult time, and that number is undoubtedly affected as a disgraceful act of inhumanity. To attack some of by the impact of covid-19 on the Home Office’s ability the most vulnerable people, living in fear in our community, to release detainees. However, the United Kingdom has is a new low for this Parliament. I thought that we had yet to reintroduce its resettlement programme. I am not all moved on. I thought we had moved forward. I hope sure whether the Minister is in a position to respond to that sufficient Members of this House still have the this, but I am keen to know whether there is any humanitarian instincts to reject this appalling measure. intention to do again what the Government have already done well. We must ensure that that happens as soon as 4.24 pm possible. Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank the Minister It is important to recognise that vulnerable persons and all the contributors to the debate. This is an issue of detained in immigration centres have already experienced great importance to me. I recognise that the Minister severe trauma. Many of them have seen things that we does his utmost in the capacity of what he is responsible would never in a million years be able to envisage, for, and I believe in all honesty that he understands the understand or even contemplate. Many have PTSD and issues that all of us are raising. The regulations, which severe mental health issues associated with their pre- will come into force on 25 May 2021, are an attempt to migration experiences. Prolonged detention—on top of update the legislation with the latest information. It is all the trauma that they have had to go through—without clear that that is essential, as the number of people sight of resettlement heightens those issues, and we forciblydisplacedaroundtheworldasaresultof persecution, need to do better for those people. What protections conflict, civil violence or human rights violations has will the regulations provide to ensure that the detention rapidly increased in the last five years. of vulnerable persons is a limited process, instead of I declare a particular interest in this matter. As the indefinite and non-reviewable mandatory detention? Is Minister and other Members will know, I am chair of the updated guidance able to stand in the post-covid the all-party parliamentary group for international freedom world that we find ourselves coming into, with the problems of religion or belief. One of the things that burdens my that we have? heart is those who are persecuted due to their faith and religion or because they belong to an ethnic minority. In 4.29 pm this House, we have been trying over the years to ensure Chris Philp: I thank all the Members who have we have a system that enables those people to be considered contributed to this discussion. I particularly thank the for asylum and relocation. I have done it before, but it is hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) for his important in these debates to give credit and thanks for well-considered and thoughtful comments on the issues jobs that are done. The Syrian resettlement scheme was we are debating. I thank him for his remarks about the brought in by this Government, and all of us in the resettlement scheme, from which his constituents have House supported it. benefited.ThatdemonstratestheGovernment’sunshakeable In my constituency of Strangford, we were able through commitment to protecting vulnerable people around the the scheme to relocate four Syrian families, who have world. been there for almost five years. I met one of them just Theresettlementprogrammetowhichthehon.Gentleman last week to discuss a housing issue. I had not seen them referred has resettled 25,000 people over the past six in person for that period, but it was wonderful to see years, which is more than any other European country. that they were settled, they had work and they had their That is clear evidence of the Government’scompassionate families. The lady had a second baby. She said to me, commitment to those in genuine need. He referenced in along with some of the people from the churches who particular persecuted Christians, of whom there are have helped out, “This is now my home.”Our Government many around the world. In fact, following a speech that made it possible for people to have their home in my I heard him make in a debate in the Chamber a year or constituency and, indeed, in many constituencies across so ago, he will notice that the new plan for immigration the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern expressly references persecuted Christians around the Ireland. That is life changing. That is what we can do world and the need to offer them sanctuary here in the when we get it right. I wanted to put that on the record, United Kingdom. Where Shannon led the way, the rest because I got the opportunity last Friday to meet that of the United Kingdom will, I hope, follow. lady again. Her family went through terrible things and The hon. Gentleman asked for an assurance that the faced upheaval just because they were Christians; that is resettlement programme will continue. Yes, it will. In a fact of life. We were able to help, and I thank my fact, it is already continuing. We recommenced a few Government and my Minister for that on behalf of weeks ago, so I can give him the assurance for which he them and myself. asked. On the question of indefinite detention, we do 439 Immigration 28 APRIL 2021 Immigration 440

[Chris Philp] Ashworth, rh Jonathan Efford, Clive Bardell, Hannah Elliott, Julie not detain people indefinitely for immigration purposes. Barker, Paula Elmore, Chris About 75% of people in immigration detention are Beckett, rh Margaret Eshalomi, Florence there for 28 days or less. It is used as a last resort. The Begum, Apsana Esterson, Bill Hardial Singh principles strictly set out the circumstances Benn, rh Hilary Evans, Chris Betts, Mr Clive Farron, Tim in which it can be used, and at any time anyone in Black, Mhairi Farry, Stephen detention can apply for immigration bail. Blackford, rh Ian Fellows, Marion Most importantly of all, it is categorically not true Blackman, Kirsty Ferrier, Margaret and is not the case that we will be turning our backs on Blake, Olivia Flynn, Stephen victims of modern slavery. On the contrary, we have Blomfield, Paul Fovargue, Yvonne done more than any Government in history to look Bonnar, Steven Foxcroft, Vicky after them. Indeed, we are doing more than any Brabin, Tracy Foy, Mary Kelly Government in Europe to protect and look after victims Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Furniss, Gill of modern slavery. The change that we are discussing Brennan, Kevin Gardiner, Barry today does not alter that fact. I can assure the House Brock, Deidre Gibson, Patricia that decision makers will continue to take careful account Brown, Alan Gill, Preet Kaur Brown, Ms Lyn Girvan, Paul of vulnerability, risk and the experience of modern Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Glindon, Mary slavery victims—or potential victims—when making Bryant, Chris Grady, Patrick these decisions. That will be fully taken into account, Buck, Ms Karen Grant, Peter and balanced with other considerations. Victims will be Burgon, Richard Green, Kate respected, treated carefully and looked after, as they Butler, Dawn Greenwood, Lilian have been in this country for many years. We have a Byrne, Ian Greenwood, Margaret proud record on this topic, and that will continue for Byrne, rh Liam Griffith, Nia many decades to come. Cadbury, Ruth Gwynne, Andrew Callaghan, Amy Haigh, Louise 4.32 pm Cameron, Dr Lisa Hamilton, Fabian Holly Lynch [V]: I am afraid that we are not at all Campbell, rh Sir Alan Hanna, Claire Campbell, Mr Gregory Hardy, Emma satisfied with the Minister’s contribution. This is a Carden, Dan Harman, rh Ms Harriet shameful downgrading of essential, hard-won protections Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Harris, Carolyn for those who have been subject to some of the worst Chamberlain, Wendy Hayes, Helen forms of exploitation and abuse. The Minister says that Champion, Sarah Healey, rh John we lead in Europe on modern slavery, but he uses that as Chapman, Douglas Hendrick, Sir Mark a justification for downgrading protections, which means Cherry, Joanna Hendry, Drew that we will trample all over that sense of leadership Clark, Feryal Hillier, Meg and welcome progress on this issue. We will no longer Cooper, Daisy Hobhouse, Wera lead in this policy area, which is much more about Cooper, Rosie Hodge, rh Dame Margaret humanity than it ever will be about practicalities. Cooper, rh Yvette Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Corbyn, rh Jeremy Hollern, Kate The Minister suggested that only one other colleague Cowan, Ronnie Hopkins, Rachel attended the Westminster Hall debate yesterday, but he Coyle, Neil Hosie, rh Stewart did not clarify the fact that it was a 30-minute debate. Crawley, Angela Howarth, rh Sir George As such, there were no contributions from other parties Creasy, Stella Huq, Dr Rupa or other Members. The early-day motion praying against Cruddas, Jon Hussain, Imran the statutory instrument has secured 77 signatures, and Cryer, John Jardine, Christine is a more appropriate reflection of colleagues’ interest Cummins, Judith Jarvis, Dan in this important matter. Cunningham, Alex Johnson, rh Dame Diana My right hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Daby, Janet Johnson, Kim Harlington (John McDonnell) made some incredibly Davey, rh Ed Jones, Darren powerful points, and I thank him for his leadership on David, Wayne Jones, Gerald Davies, Geraint Jones, rh Mr Kevan this issue. We do not have the confidence to support the Davies-Jones, Alex Jones, Ruth Government on proposed guidance that is yet to be Day, Martyn Jones, Sarah published. I thank the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim De Cordova, Marsha Kane, Mike Shannon) for his typically powerful contribution as well. Debbonaire, Thangam Keeley, Barbara The protections currently in place represent far more Dhesi, Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Kendall, Liz than a policy anomaly. There is a strong case for them to Docherty-Hughes, Martin Khan, Afzal be in place and we want to see those protections extended. Dodds, Anneliese Kinnock, Stephen We seek to divide the House to revoke these proposals. Donaldson, rh Sir Jeffrey M. Kyle, Peter Question put. Doogan, Dave Lake, Ben Dorans, Allan Lammy, rh Mr David The House divided: Ayes 270, Noes 358. Doughty, Stephen Lavery, Ian Division No. 282] [4.34 pm Dowd, Peter Law, Chris Dromey, Jack Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma AYES Duffield, Rosie Lewis, Clive Abbott, rh Ms Diane Allin-Khan, Dr Rosena Eagle, Dame Angela Linden, David Abrahams, Debbie Amesbury, Mike Eagle, Maria Lloyd, Tony Ali, Rushanara Anderson, Fleur Eastwood, Colum Lockhart, Carla Ali, Tahir Antoniazzi, Tonia Edwards, Jonathan Long Bailey, Rebecca 441 Immigration 28 APRIL 2021 Immigration 442

Lucas, Caroline Reeves, Rachel Bacon, Mr Richard Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Lynch, Holly Reynolds, Jonathan Badenoch, Kemi Docherty, Leo MacNeil, Angus Brendan Ribeiro-Addy, Bell Bailey, Shaun Donelan, Michelle Madders, Justin Rimmer, Ms Marie Baillie, Siobhan Dorries, Ms Nadine Mahmood, Mr Khalid Robinson, Gavin Baker, Duncan Double, Steve Mahmood, Shabana Rodda, Matt Baldwin, Harriett Dowden, rh Oliver Malhotra, Seema Russell-Moyle, Lloyd Barclay, rh Steve Doyle-Price, Jackie Maskell, Rachael Saville Roberts, rh Liz Baron, Mr John Drax, Richard Matheson, Christian Shah, Naz Baynes, Simon Drummond, Mrs Flick Mc Nally, John Shannon, Jim Bell, Aaron Duddridge, James McCabe, Steve Sharma, Mr Virendra Benton, Scott Duguid, David McCarthy, Kerry Sheerman, Mr Barry Beresford, Sir Paul Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain McDonagh, Siobhain Sheppard, Tommy Berry, rh Jake Dunne, rh Philip McDonald, Andy Siddiq, Tulip Bhatti, Saqib Eastwood, Mark McDonald, Stewart Malcolm Slaughter, Andy Blackman, Bob Edwards, Ruth McDonald, Stuart C. Smith, Alyn Blunt, Crispin Ellis, rh Michael McDonnell, rh John Smith, Cat Bone, Mr Peter Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias McFadden, rh Mr Pat Smith, Jeff Bowie, Andrew Elphicke, Mrs Natalie McGinn, Conor Smith, Nick Bradley, Ben Eustice, rh George McGovern, Alison Smyth, Karin Bradley, rh Karen Evans, Dr Luke McKinnell, Catherine Sobel, Alex Brady, Sir Graham Evennett, rh Sir David McLaughlin, Anne Spellar, rh John Braverman, rh Suella Everitt, Ben McMahon, Jim Starmer, rh Keir Brereton, Jack Fabricant, Michael McMorrin, Anna Stephens, Chris Bridgen, Andrew Farris, Laura Mearns, Ian Stevens, Jo Brine, Steve Fell, Simon Miliband, rh Edward Stone, Jamie Bristow, Paul Fletcher, Katherine Mishra, Navendu Streeting, Wes Britcliffe, Sara Fletcher, Mark Monaghan, Carol Stringer, Graham Brokenshire, rh James Fletcher, Nick Moran, Layla Sultana, Zarah Browne, Anthony Ford, Vicky Morden, Jessica Tami, rh Mark Bruce, Fiona Foster, Kevin Morgan, Stephen Tarry, Sam Buchan, Felicity Fox, rh Dr Liam Morris, Grahame Thewliss, Alison Buckland, rh Robert Francois, rh Mr Mark Murray, Ian Thomas, Gareth Burghart, Alex Frazer, rh Lucy Murray, James Thomas-Symonds, rh Nick Burns, rh Conor Freeman, George Nandy, Lisa Thompson, Owen Butler, Rob Freer, Mike Newlands, Gavin Thomson, Richard Cairns, rh Alun Fuller, Richard Nichols, Charlotte Thornberry, rh Emily Carter, Andy Fysh, Mr Marcus Nicolson, John Timms, rh Stephen Cartlidge, James Gale, rh Sir Roger Norris, Alex Trickett, Jon Cash, Sir William Garnier, Mark O’Hara, Brendan Turner, Karl Cates, Miriam Ghani, Ms Nusrat Olney, Sarah Twigg, Derek Caulfield, Maria Gibb, rh Nick Onwurah, Chi Twist, Liz Chalk, Alex Gibson, Peter Oppong-Asare, Abena Vaz, rh Valerie Chishti, Rehman Gideon, Jo Osamor, Kate Webbe, Claudia Chope, Sir Christopher Glen, John Osborne, Kate West, Catherine Churchill, Jo Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Oswald, Kirsten Western, Matt Clark, rh Greg Gove, rh Michael Owatemi, Taiwo Whitehead, Dr Alan Clarke, Mr Simon Graham, Richard Owen, Sarah Whitford, Dr Philippa Clarke, Theo Grant, Mrs Helen Paisley, Ian Whitley, Mick Clarke-Smith, Brendan Gray, James Peacock, Stephanie Whittome, Nadia Clarkson, Chris Grayling, rh Chris Pennycook, Matthew Williams, Hywel Cleverly, rh James Green, Chris Perkins, Mr Toby Wilson, Munira Clifton-Brown, Sir Geoffrey Green, rh Damian Phillips, Jess Wilson, rh Sammy Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Griffith, Andrew Phillipson, Bridget Winter, Beth Colburn, Elliot Griffiths, Kate Pollard, Luke Wishart, Pete Collins, Damian Grundy, James Powell, Lucy Costa, Alberto Gullis, Jonathan Yasin, Mohammad Qureshi, Yasmin Courts, Robert Halfon, rh Robert Zeichner, Daniel Rayner, rh Angela Coutinho, Claire Hall, Luke Reed, Steve Tellers for the Ayes: Cox, rh Sir Geoffrey Hammond, Stephen Rees, Christina Colleen Fletcher and Crabb, rh Stephen Hancock, rh Matt Reeves, Ellie Bambos Charalambous Crosbie, Virginia Hands, rh Greg Crouch, Tracey Harper, rh Mr Mark NOES Daly, James Harris, Rebecca Davies, David T. C. Harrison, Trudy Adams, Nigel Anderson, Lee Davies, Gareth Hart, Sally-Ann Afolami, Bim Anderson, Stuart Davies, Dr James Hart, rh Simon Afriyie, Adam Andrew, rh Stuart Davies, Mims Hayes, rh Sir John Ahmad Khan, Imran Ansell, Caroline Davies, Philip Heald, rh Sir Oliver Aiken, Nickie Argar, Edward Davis, rh Mr David Heappey, James Aldous, Peter Atherton, Sarah Davison, Dehenna Heaton-Harris, Chris Allan, Lucy Atkins, Victoria Dinenage, Caroline Henderson, Gordon Amess, Sir David Bacon, Gareth Dines, Miss Sarah Henry, Darren 443 Immigration 28 APRIL 2021 Immigration 444

Higginbotham, Antony Lord, Mr Jonathan Poulter, Dr Dan Sturdy, Julian Hinds, rh Damian Loughton, Tim Pow, Rebecca Sunak, rh Rishi Hoare, Simon Mackinlay, Craig Prentis, Victoria Sunderland, James Holden, Mr Richard Mackrory, Cherilyn Pritchard, rh Mark Swayne, rh Sir Desmond Hollinrake, Kevin Maclean, Rachel Pursglove, Tom Syms, Sir Robert Hollobone, Mr Philip Mak, Alan Quin, Jeremy Thomas, Derek Holloway, Adam Malthouse, Kit Quince, Will Throup, Maggie Holmes, Paul Mangnall, Anthony Raab, rh Dominic Timpson, Edward Howell, John Mann, Scott Randall, Tom Tolhurst, Kelly Howell, Paul Marson, Julie Redwood, rh John Tomlinson, Justin Huddleston, Nigel May, rh Mrs Theresa Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob Tomlinson, Michael Hudson, Dr Neil Mayhew, Jerome Richards, Nicola Tracey, Craig Hughes, Eddie Maynard, Paul Richardson, Angela Trevelyan, rh Anne-Marie Hunt, Jane McCartney, Jason Roberts, Rob Trott, Laura Hunt, rh Jeremy McCartney, Karl Robertson, Mr Laurence Truss, rh Elizabeth Hunt, Tom McPartland, Stephen Robinson, Mary Tugendhat, Tom Jack, rh Mr Alister McVey, rh Esther Rosindell, Andrew Vara, Shailesh Javid, rh Sajid Menzies, Mark Ross, Douglas Vickers, Martin Jayawardena, Mr Ranil Merriman, Huw Rowley, Lee Vickers, Matt Jenkin, Sir Bernard Metcalfe, Stephen Russell, Dean Villiers, rh Theresa Jenkinson, Mark Millar, Robin Sambrook, Gary Wakeford, Christian Jenkyns, Andrea Miller, rh Mrs Maria Saxby, Selaine Walker, Sir Charles Jenrick, rh Robert Milling, rh Amanda Scully, Paul Walker, Mr Robin Johnson, rh Boris Mills, Nigel Seely, Bob Johnson, Dr Caroline Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Selous, Andrew Wallace, rh Mr Ben Johnson, Gareth Mohindra, Mr Gagan Shapps, rh Grant Wallis, Dr Jamie Johnston, David Moore, Damien Sharma, rh Alok Warburton, David Jones, Andrew Moore, Robbie Shelbrooke, rh Alec Warman, Matt Jones, rh Mr David Mordaunt, rh Penny Simmonds, David Watling, Giles Jones, Fay Morris, Anne Marie Skidmore, rh Chris Webb, Suzanne Jones, Mr Marcus Morris, David Smith, Chloe Whately, Helen Jupp, Simon Morrissey, Joy Smith, Greg Wheeler, Mrs Heather Kawczynski, Daniel Morton, Wendy Smith, Henry Whittaker, Craig Kearns, Alicia Mullan, Dr Kieran Smith, rh Julian Whittingdale, rh Mr John Keegan, Gillian Mumby-Croft, Holly Smith, Royston Wiggin, Bill Knight, rh Sir Greg Mundell, rh David Solloway, Amanda Wild, James Knight, Julian Murray, Mrs Sheryll Spencer, Dr Ben Williams, Craig Kruger, Danny Murrison, rh Dr Andrew Spencer, rh Mark Williamson, rh Gavin Kwarteng, rh Kwasi Neill, Sir Robert Stafford, Alexander Wood, Mike Lamont, John Nici, Lia Stephenson, Andrew Wragg, Mr William Largan, Robert Nokes, rh Caroline Stevenson, Jane Wright, rh Jeremy Latham, Mrs Pauline Norman, rh Jesse Stevenson, John Young, Jacob Leadsom, rh Andrea O’Brien, Neil Stewart, rh Bob Zahawi, Nadhim Leigh, rh Sir Edward Offord, Dr Matthew Stewart, Iain Levy, Ian Opperman, Guy Streeter, Sir Gary Tellers for the Noes: Lewer, Andrew Parish, Neil Stride, rh Mel David Rutley and Lewis, rh Brandon Patel, rh Priti Stuart, Graham James Morris Lewis, rh Dr Julian Paterson, rh Mr Owen Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Pawsey, Mark Question accordingly negatived. Loder, Chris Penning, rh Sir Mike Logan, Mark Penrose, John The list of Members currently certified as eligible for a Longhi, Marco Percy, Andrew proxy vote, and of the Members nominated as their Lopez, Julia Philp, Chris proxy, is published at the end of today’s debates. Lopresti, Jack Pincher, rh Christopher 445 28 APRIL 2021 National Security and Investment Bill 446

National Security and Investment Bill toprovidetherobustandsensitiveoversightandaccountability that matters of national security require. The Bill gives Consideration of Lords message significant new powers to BEIS, a Department traditionally lacking in national security experience. Clause 61 On Monday,as the Minister indicated, the Government rejected Lords amendments 11 and 15, stating that ANNUAL REPORT “it is appropriate and sufficient for oversight and scrutiny of 4.44 pm decisions made by the Secretary of State for BEIS to be conducted by their departmental select committee”— The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, that is, the BEIS Committee. The Lords have responded Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully): I beg to with amendments 11B and 11C, which would allow the move, Government to add the Investment Security Unit into That this House disagrees with Lords amendments 11B and the Government and ISC memorandum of understanding, 11C. thereby removing the obligation to provide the ISC with The amendments made in the other place concern a confidential annexe. what is in effect a reporting requirement to the Intelligence and Security Committee in respect of the national We maintain our position: that the BEIS Committee security and investment regime. They incorporate the does not have the security clearance necessary to provide text of Lords amendments 11 and 15, which were scrutiny.In Monday’s debate, the Chair of the Committee, considered in this House on 26 April. In addition, they my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol North West would end the reporting requirements on the Secretary (Darren Jones), said clearly that the Committee of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy “does not have the access to the intelligence information that it provided for by Lords amendments 11 and 15 should would need in order to adequately scrutinise the Investment Security Unit in the BEIS Department.”—[Official Report, 26 April the memorandum of understanding that governs the 2021; Vol. 693, c. 164.] remit of the Intelligence and Security Committee be amended to bring the Secretary of State’s activities As the Minister indicated, the Secretary of State has under clause 26 into the scope of ISC scrutiny. said that classified information could be shared with the BEIS Committee on a case-by-case basis, but the retaining, This House has already offered a view on the substance recording, discussing or reporting of that information of amendments. It is disappointing that the other place after the fact would constitute a security breach, somewhat has not heeded the clear and carefully considered message limiting the Committee’s actions. from this Chamber that the amendment to provide for a reporting requirement to the ISC is neither necessary In this afternoon’s debate in the other place, the nor appropriate. I welcome the Lords’continuing attempts Government said that they will “carefully consider” to find compromise, but I respectfully disagree with ways in which classified information could be provided them. The Secretary of State has written to confirm so that the Committee can do its job. Why do we need plans for scrutiny with the Chair of the Business, Energy careful consideration when we have,through the Intelligence and Industrial Strategy Committee, the hon. Member and Security Committee, an existing and functioning for Bristol North West (Darren Jones), and the Chair of mechanism for parliamentary scrutiny on issues of national the Science and Technology Committee, my right hon. security? Earlier this afternoon, the Government were Friend the Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark). again defeated in the other place, this time by an even The ISC remains able to scrutinise the work of the greater margin, showing that, despite the Minister’s intelligence services where it falls within the memorandum efforts, support for Intelligence and Security Committee of understanding and in accordance with the Justice and oversight is growing. I feel that it is becoming an issue Security Act 2013. of intransigence and stubbornness—or, as former Conservative Health Secretary Lord Lansley put it today, As we rapidly approach the end of this Session, it is “arrogance”—by a Government refusing to prioritise essential that this vital Bill on the UK’s national security national security in the National Security and Investment does not fall as a result of our failure to agree that the Bill, and determined to overturn common sense for reasons BEIS Committee will continue to scrutinise the work of that are unclear to us all. the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy.I therefore urge the House to reject amendments It is clear to us that there is a need for Intelligence 11B an 11C from the other place and reiterate its and Security Committee oversight. Indeed the Chair of message about the will of this democratically elected the ISC, the right hon. Member for New Forest East House, to help ensure that the Bill becomes law without (Dr Lewis), said: delay. “The setting up of the new Investment Security Unit in BEIS”— Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab) a function of this Bill— [V]: I again thank colleagues in the other place who “is…precisely the situation that the Government assured the have worked tirelessly to improve the Bill. House”—[Official Report, 26 April 2021; Vol. 693, c. 157.] Labour is the party of national security and has long would mean that there was ISC oversight, under the called for a new regime to deal with the evolving national memorandum of understanding between the Government security threat arising from mergers and acquisitions, as and the ISC. Today’samendment provides for ISC scrutiny the Bill seeks to do. The Bill was much improved in until an amended MOU resolves the confusion that Committee, as the Minister acknowledged in Monday’s appears to exist—on the Government’s part, at least. debate; however, as Members from all parties highlighted If the Government are serious about protecting the then, it still lacks an appropriate level of oversight for UK’s national security through this Bill, they will not critical national security decisions. Labour believes that force through legislation with such a significant blind Intelligence and Security Committee scrutiny is essential spot. Labour, the Chair of the Intelligence and Security 447 National Security and Investment Bill28 APRIL 2021 National Security and Investment Bill 448

[Chi Onwurah] Question put, That this House disagrees with Lords amendments 11B and 11C. Committee, the Chair of the Business, Energy and The House divided: Ayes 358, Noes 269. Industrial Strategy Committee, many Government Back Benchers and cross-party consensus in the other place Division No. 283] [4.54 pm all agree that the ISC is best placed to provide national security oversight. Why are the Government determined AYES to stand alone in risking our national security in this case? Adams, Nigel Clarke, Mr Simon Afolami, Bim Clarke, Theo Owen Thompson (Midlothian) (SNP): I will be very Afriyie, Adam Clarke-Smith, Brendan brief. Earlier this week, my hon. Friend the Member for Ahmad Khan, Imran Clarkson, Chris Aberdeen South (Stephen Flynn) made the case very Aiken, Nickie Cleverly, rh James clearly that we broadly support the principles of the Aldous, Peter Clifton-Brown, Sir Geoffrey Bill, but still have concerns over the levels of scrutiny, as Allan, Lucy Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse we have heard from other Members. We have attempted Amess, Sir David Colburn, Elliot to be constructive at all stages, and have tried to support Anderson, Lee Collins, Damian the Government to find a balance between the needs of Anderson, Stuart Costa, Alberto business and national security, particularly in relation Andrew, rh Stuart Courts, Robert to small and medium-sized enterprises. Ansell, Caroline Coutinho, Claire Argar, Edward Cox, rh Sir Geoffrey Many amendments have been accepted, which will Atherton, Sarah Crabb, rh Stephen help to achieve this; we welcome the Government’s Atkins, Victoria Crosbie, Virginia steps in that regard. However, the scrutiny process Bacon, Gareth Crouch, Tracey remains vital and we are not yet satisfied that it has Bacon, Mr Richard Daly, James been taken fully into consideration. The comments Badenoch, Kemi Davies, David T. C. made by the Chair of the ISC earlier this week certainly Bailey, Shaun Davies, Gareth highlighted that. I urge the Government to heed those Baillie, Siobhan Davies, Dr James words and those of my hon. Friend the Member for Baker, Duncan Davies, Mims Aberdeen South. Baker, Mr Steve Davies, Philip Baldwin, Harriett Davis, rh Mr David Paul Scully: I am grateful to hon. and right hon. Barclay, rh Steve Davison, Dehenna Members for their contributions and considerations in Baron, Mr John Dinenage, Caroline this debate and others. I will make a couple of brief points Baynes, Simon Dines, Miss Sarah in response. Bell, Aaron Djanogly, Mr Jonathan The nub of the remarks made by the hon. Member Benton, Scott Docherty, Leo for Newcastle upon Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah) was Beresford, Sir Paul Donelan, Michelle the question of whether the BEIS Committee will have Berry, rh Jake Dorries, Ms Nadine access to top secret information. We will make sure that Bhatti, Saqib Double, Steve the Committee has the information it needs to fulfil its Blackman, Bob Dowden, rh Oliver remit and scrutinise the work of the ISU under the NSI Blunt, Crispin Doyle-Price, Jackie regime. Much of the information is unlikely to be highly Bone, Mr Peter Drax, Richard classified, but where the Committee’s questioning touches Bowie, Andrew Drummond, Mrs Flick on areas of high classification, it is likely that relevant Bradley, Ben Duddridge, James information could be given in a way that does not Bradley, rh Karen Duguid, David require as high a level of classification, and that this Brady, Sir Graham Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain could be provided to the Committee on a confidential Braverman, rh Suella Dunne, rh Philip basis. If, however, the Committee does require access to Brereton, Jack Eastwood, Mark highly classified information, we will carefully consider Bridgen, Andrew Edwards, Ruth how best to provide this while maintaining information Brine, Steve Ellis, rh Michael security in close collaboration with the Committee’s Bristow, Paul Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias Chair. Britcliffe, Sara Elphicke, Mrs Natalie The Government’s main powers to scrutinise and Brokenshire, rh James Eustice, rh George Browne, Anthony Evans, Dr Luke intervene in mergers and acquisitions for national security Bruce, Fiona Evennett, rh Sir David reasons comes from the Enterprise Act 2002. The powers Buchan, Felicity Everitt, Ben under the Act sit with the Secretaries of State for BEIS Buckland, rh Robert Fabricant, Michael and for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, not with the Burghart, Alex Farris, Laura Cabinet Office. The BEIS Committee’s oversight of the Burns, rh Conor Fell, Simon new NSI regime is entirely in keeping with this and does Butler, Rob Fletcher, Katherine not represent a reduction in the ISC’s remit, so there is Cairns, rh Alun Fletcher, Mark no barrier to the Committee handling top secret or Carter, Andy Fletcher, Nick other sensitive material, subject to the agreement of the Cartlidge, James Ford, Vicky Department and the Chair of the Committee on appropriate Cash, Sir William Foster, Kevin handling. Cates, Miriam Fox, rh Dr Liam This House should continue its excellent work of Caulfield, Maria Francois, rh Mr Mark speeding this Bill towards becoming law for the benefit Chalk, Alex Frazer, rh Lucy of the UK’s world-leading investment environment, as Chishti, Rehman Freeman, George well as of protecting the nation’s security. I therefore Chope, Sir Christopher Freer, Mike urge the House to disagree with the Lords in their Churchill, Jo Fuller, Richard amendments 11B and 11C. Clark, rh Greg Fysh, Mr Marcus 449 National Security and Investment Bill28 APRIL 2021 National Security and Investment Bill 450

Gale, rh Sir Roger Keegan, Gillian Penrose, John Stride, rh Mel Garnier, Mark Knight, rh Sir Greg Percy, Andrew Stuart, Graham Ghani, Ms Nusrat Knight, Julian Philp, Chris Sturdy, Julian Gibb, rh Nick Kruger, Danny Pincher, rh Christopher Sunak, rh Rishi Gibson, Peter Kwarteng, rh Kwasi Poulter, Dr Dan Sunderland, James Gideon, Jo Lamont, John Pow, Rebecca Swayne, rh Sir Desmond Glen, John Largan, Robert Prentis, Victoria Syms, Sir , rh Mr Robert Latham, Mrs Pauline Pritchard, rh Mark Thomas, Derek Gove, rh Michael Leadsom, rh Andrea Pursglove, Tom Throup, Maggie Quin, Jeremy Timpson, Edward Graham, Richard Leigh, rh Sir Edward Quince, Will Tolhurst, Kelly Grant, Mrs Helen Levy, Ian Raab, rh Dominic Tomlinson, Justin Gray, James Lewer, Andrew Randall, Tom Tomlinson, Michael Grayling, rh Chris Lewis, rh Brandon Redwood, rh John Tracey, Craig Green, Chris Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob Trevelyan, rh Anne-Marie Green, rh Damian Loder, Chris Richards, Nicola Trott, Laura Griffith, Andrew Logan, Mark Richardson, Angela Truss, rh Elizabeth Griffiths, Kate Longhi, Marco Roberts, Rob Tugendhat, Tom Grundy, James Lopez, Julia Robertson, Mr Laurence Vara, Shailesh Gullis, Jonathan Lopresti, Jack Robinson, Mary Vickers, Martin Halfon, rh Robert Lord, Mr Jonathan Rosindell, Andrew Vickers, Matt Hall, Luke Loughton, Tim Ross, Douglas Villiers, rh Theresa Hammond, Stephen Mackinlay, Craig Rowley, Lee Wakeford, Christian Hancock, rh Matt Mackrory, Cherilyn Russell, Dean Walker, Sir Charles Hands, rh Greg Maclean, Rachel Sambrook, Gary Walker, Mr Robin Harper, rh Mr Mark Mak, Alan Saxby, Selaine Wallace, rh Mr Ben Harris, Rebecca Malthouse, Kit Scully, Paul Wallis, Dr Jamie Harrison, Trudy Mangnall, Anthony Seely, Bob Warburton, David Hart, Sally-Ann Mann, Scott Selous, Andrew Warman, Matt Hart, rh Simon Marson, Julie Shapps, rh Grant Sharma, rh Alok Watling, Giles Hayes, rh Sir John May, rh Mrs Theresa Shelbrooke, rh Alec Webb, Suzanne Heald, rh Sir Oliver Mayhew, Jerome Simmonds, David Whately, Helen Heappey, James Maynard, Paul Skidmore, rh Chris Wheeler, Mrs Heather Heaton-Harris, Chris McCartney, Jason Smith, Chloe Whittaker, Craig Henderson, Gordon McCartney, Karl Smith, Greg Whittingdale, rh Mr John Henry, Darren McPartland, Stephen Smith, Henry Wiggin, Bill Higginbotham, Antony McVey, rh Esther Smith, rh Julian Wild, James Hinds, rh Damian Menzies, Mark Smith, Royston Williams, Craig Hoare, Simon Merriman, Huw Solloway, Amanda Williamson, rh Gavin Holden, Mr Richard Metcalfe, Stephen Spencer, Dr Ben Wood, Mike Hollinrake, Kevin Millar, Robin Spencer, rh Mark Wragg, Mr William Hollobone, Mr Philip Miller, rh Mrs Maria Stafford, Alexander Wright, rh Jeremy Holloway, Adam Milling, rh Amanda Stephenson, Andrew Young, Jacob Holmes, Paul Mills, Nigel Stevenson, Jane Zahawi, Nadhim Howell, John Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Stevenson, John Howell, Paul Mohindra, Mr Gagan Stewart, rh Bob Tellers for the Ayes: Huddleston, Nigel Moore, Damien Stewart, Iain David Rutley and Hudson, Dr Neil Moore, Robbie Streeter, Sir Gary James Morris Hughes, Eddie Mordaunt, rh Penny Hunt, Jane Morris, Anne Marie NOES Hunt, rh Jeremy Morris, David Abbott, rh Ms Diane Bonnar, Steven Hunt, Tom Morrissey, Joy Abrahams, Debbie Brabin, Tracy Jack, rh Mr Alister Morton, Wendy Ali, Rushanara Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Javid, rh Sajid Mullan, Dr Kieran Ali, Tahir Brennan, Kevin Jayawardena, Mr Ranil Mumby-Croft, Holly Allin-Khan, Dr Rosena Brock, Deidre Jenkin, Sir Bernard Mundell, rh David Amesbury, Mike Brown, Alan Jenkinson, Mark Murray, Mrs Sheryll Anderson, Fleur Brown, Ms Lyn Jenkyns, Andrea Murrison, rh Dr Andrew Antoniazzi, Tonia Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Jenrick, rh Robert Neill, Sir Robert Ashworth, rh Jonathan Bryant, Chris Johnson, rh Boris Nici, Lia Bardell, Hannah Buck, Ms Karen Johnson, Dr Caroline Nokes, rh Caroline Barker, Paula Burgon, Richard Johnson, Gareth Norman, rh Jesse Beckett, rh Margaret Butler, Dawn Johnston, David O’Brien, Neil Begum, Apsana Byrne, Ian Jones, Andrew Offord, Dr Matthew Benn, rh Hilary Byrne, rh Liam Jones, rh Mr David Opperman, Guy Betts, Mr Clive Cadbury, Ruth Jones, Fay Parish, Neil Black, Mhairi Callaghan, Amy Jones, Mr Marcus Patel, rh Priti Blackford, rh Ian Cameron, Dr Lisa Jupp, Simon Paterson, rh Mr Owen Blackman, Kirsty Campbell, rh Sir Alan Kawczynski, Daniel Pawsey, Mark Blake, Olivia Campbell, Mr Gregory Kearns, Alicia Penning, rh Sir Mike Blomfield, Paul Carden, Dan 451 National Security and Investment Bill28 APRIL 2021 National Security and Investment Bill 452

Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Harris, Carolyn Murray, Ian Smith, Cat Chamberlain, Wendy Hayes, Helen Murray, James Smith, Jeff Champion, Sarah Healey, rh John Nandy, Lisa Smith, Nick Chapman, Douglas Hendrick, Sir Mark Newlands, Gavin Smyth, Karin Cherry, Joanna Hendry, Drew Nichols, Charlotte Sobel, Alex Clark, Feryal Hillier, Meg Nicolson, John Spellar, rh John Cooper, Daisy Hobhouse, Wera Norris, Alex Starmer, rh Keir Cooper, Rosie Hodge, rh Dame Margaret O’Hara, Brendan Stephens, Chris Cooper, rh Yvette Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Olney, Sarah Stevens, Jo Corbyn, rh Jeremy Hollern, Kate Onwurah, Chi Stone, Jamie Cowan, Ronnie Hopkins, Rachel Oppong-Asare, Abena Streeting, Wes Coyle, Neil Hosie, rh Stewart Osamor, Kate Stringer, Graham Crawley, Angela Howarth, rh Sir George Osborne, Kate Sultana, Zarah Creasy, Stella Huq, Dr Rupa Oswald, Kirsten Tami, rh Mark Cruddas, Jon Hussain, Imran Owatemi, Taiwo Tarry, Sam Cryer, John Jardine, Christine Owen, Sarah Thewliss, Alison Cummins, Judith Jarvis, Dan Paisley, Ian Thomas, Gareth Cunningham, Alex Johnson, rh Dame Diana Peacock, Stephanie Thomas-Symonds, rh Nick Daby, Janet Johnson, Kim Pennycook, Matthew Thompson, Owen Davey, rh Ed Jones, Gerald Perkins, Mr Toby Thomson, Richard David, Wayne Jones, rh Mr Kevan Phillips, Jess Thornberry, rh Emily Davies, Geraint Jones, Ruth Phillipson, Bridget Davies-Jones, Alex Jones, Sarah Pollard, Luke Timms, rh Stephen Day, Martyn Kane, Mike Powell, Lucy Trickett, Jon De Cordova, Marsha Keeley, Barbara Qureshi, Yasmin Turner, Karl Debbonaire, Thangam Kendall, Liz Rayner, rh Angela Twist, Liz Dhesi, Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Khan, Afzal Reed, Steve Vaz, rh Valerie Docherty-Hughes, Martin Kinnock, Stephen Rees, Christina Webbe, Claudia Dodds, Anneliese Kyle, Peter Reeves, Ellie West, Catherine Donaldson, rh Sir Jeffrey M. Lake, Ben Reeves, Rachel Western, Matt Doogan, Dave Lammy, rh Mr David Reynolds, Jonathan Whitehead, Dr Alan Dorans, Allan Lavery, Ian Ribeiro-Addy, Bell Whitford, Dr Philippa Doughty, Stephen Law, Chris Rimmer, Ms Marie Whitley, Mick Dowd, Peter Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Robinson, Gavin Whittome, Nadia Dromey, Jack Lewis, Clive Rodda, Matt Williams, Hywel Duffield, Rosie Lewis, rh Dr Julian Russell-Moyle, Lloyd Wilson, Munira Eagle, Dame Angela Linden, David Saville Roberts, rh Liz Wilson, rh Sammy Eagle, Maria Lloyd, Tony Shah, Naz Winter, Beth Eastwood, Colum Lockhart, Carla Shannon, Jim Wishart, Pete Edwards, Jonathan Long Bailey, Rebecca Sharma, Mr Virendra Yasin, Mohammad Efford, Clive Lucas, Caroline Sheerman, Mr Barry Zeichner, Daniel Elliott, Julie Lynch, Holly Sheppard, Tommy Elmore, Chris MacNeil, Angus Brendan Siddiq, Tulip Tellers for the Noes: Eshalomi, Florence Madders, Justin Slaughter, Andy Colleen Fletcher and Esterson, Bill Mahmood, Mr Khalid Smith, Alyn Bambos Charalambous Evans, Chris Mahmood, Shabana Farron, Tim Malhotra, Seema Question accordingly agreed to. Farry, Stephen Maskell, Rachael Fellows, Marion Matheson, Christian Lords amendments 11B and 11C disagreed to. Ferrier, Margaret Mc Nally, John The list of Members currently certified as eligible for a Flynn, Stephen McCabe, Steve proxy vote, and of the Members nominated as their Fovargue, Yvonne McCarthy, Kerry Foxcroft, Vicky McDonagh, Siobhain proxy, is published at the end of today’s debates. Foy, Mary Kelly McDonald, Andy Ordered, That a Committee be appointed to draw up Furniss, Gill McDonald, Stewart Malcolm Reasons to be assigned to the Lords for disagreeing to Gardiner, Barry McDonald, Stuart C. their amendments 11B and 11C; Gibson, Patricia McDonnell, rh John Gill, Preet Kaur McFadden, rh Mr Pat That Paul Scully, Michael Tomlinson, Jo Gideon, Girvan, Paul McGinn, Conor Lucy Powell and Stephen Flynn be members of the Glindon, Mary McGovern, Alison Committee; Grady, Patrick McKinnell, Catherine That Paul Scully be the Chair of the Committee; Grant, Peter McLaughlin, Anne That three be the quorum of the Committee. Green, Kate McMahon, Jim Greenwood, Lilian McMorrin, Anna That the Committee do withdraw immediately.—(Mike Greenwood, Margaret Mearns, Ian Freer.) Griffith, Nia Miliband, rh Edward Committee to withdraw immediately; reasons to be Gwynne, Andrew Mishra, Navendu reported and communicated to the Lords. Haigh, Louise Monaghan, Carol Hamilton, Fabian Moran, Layla Hanna, Claire Morden, Jessica Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): In Hardy, Emma Morgan, Stephen order to observe social distancing, the Reasons Committee Harman, rh Ms Harriet Morris, Grahame will meet in Committee Room 12. 453 National Security and Investment Bill 28 APRIL 2021 454

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (TODAY) (NO. 2) Amendments to the Independent Ordered, Complaints and Grievance Scheme That, at this day’s sitting, the Speaker shall put the Questions on the motion in the name of Mr Jacob Rees-Mogg relating to Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): Amendments to the Independent Complaints and Grievance Before I call the Leader of the House to move the Scheme not later than one hour after the commencement of motion, I should inform the House that Mr Speaker has proceedings on the motion for this Order; such Questions shall not selected amendment (a) in the name of Sir Christopher include the Questions on any Amendments to the motions selected Chope. by the Speaker which may then be moved; the business on that motion may be proceeded with at any hour, though opposed; and 5.6 pm Standing Order No. 41A (Deferred divisions) shall not apply.—(Scott Mann.) The Leader of the House of Commons (Mr Jacob Rees- Mogg): I beg to move, That this House endorses the report of the House of Commons Commission entitled Amendments to the Independent Complaints and Grievance Scheme, HC 1384, laid on Thursday 22 April; and approves the revised bullying and harassment policy and outline procedure, and sexual misconduct policy and outline procedure, set out in Annexes 1 to 4 of that report. Before I begin, as I may not have the opportunity tomorrow, may I start by thanking Ray Mortimer for his service to the House? He is leaving after 18 years of serving us, and he has always in my time in the House—and I am a mere stripling of only 10 and a bit years’ service—been one of the friendliest, most approachable and helpful members of the first-class Doorkeepers team. He was welcoming to me from the day that I arrived, and he has always been smiling and positive. He knows better, dare I say, what the business of House is going to be, if one needs advice, sometimes than one’s own Whips know and sometimes even than the Leader of the House himself knows, and this is characteristic of the Doorkeepers. I know that my private office in particular has always appreciated Ray’s good humour, support and friendliness, too. I am sure that Members from across the House will want to thank Ray for his service. I also thank the shadow Leader of the House, who warned me that this was happening, and that is how I knew. Turning to the motion in my name, the central aim of the Independent Complaints and Grievance Scheme is to help improve the working culture of Parliament. The Government continue to be determined to play our part, giving the House an opportunity to have its say on the proposed reforms and their relative merits in achieving the change we are all striving for. This motion endorses the report agreed by the House of Commons Commission on amendments to the Independent Complaints and Grievance Scheme. At the time that the ICGS was created, it was important that the scheme was established as rapidly as possible. Built in to the set-up process were two reviews—one after six months and a second after 18 months—both to provide an opportunity for the scheme to be assessed and improvements identified. Inevitably, when looked at over time, there were aspects that required improvement. I am grateful to Alison Stanley for the dedication and professionalism she has showed in her work reviewing the Independent Complaints and Grievance Scheme, and in particular for her most recent extensive review, published on 22 February. It has been useful to have an independent and expert assessment of the ICGS, providing Parliamentwithacarefullyconsideredsetof recommendations that will help us to hone the scheme further and make Parliament a better place to work. As the Leader of the House of Commons and co-sponsor of the review, I have taken a keen interest in the report. I am confident that the proposed changes will improve 455 Amendments to the Independent 28 APRIL 2021 Amendments to the Independent 456 Complaints and Grievance Scheme Complaints and Grievance Scheme [Mr Jacob Rees-Mogg] From that date onwards, people can report an incident of bullying or harassment up to one full year after it the policies and procedures of the ICGS, while simplifying occurs. That compares with the three-month deadline and streamlining the management of cases. We have for claims to an employment tribunal, so the House is already made progress with the implementation of the once again setting a standard higher than that expected proposals for textual changes to the policies and procedures in external workforces. Given the particular nature of concerning complaints of bullying and harassment or sexual harassment cases and the understandable reality sexual misconduct in response to Alison Stanley’s report. that people often need longer to feel able to bring These changes, endorsed by the Commission on 22 March, forward such a case, there will be no time limit for those include the retention of the factual accuracy check as cases. the key means of review, the imposition of a time limit In addition to the changes recommended by the for bullying and harassment cases, and textual changes review, further technical changes are proposed to the to ICGS policies and procedures. policies and procedures, including making it clear that The motion today will amend the ICGS in several although bullying, harassment and sexual misconduct important ways. The language of the ICGS will be are defined in the same way across the parliamentary amended to make it less pre-judgmental—for example, community, the Commissioners for Standards in both by removing phrases such as “a case to answer”. The Houses are responsible for overseeing investigations, so terminology will be updated to reflect language actually therearesomeproceduraldifferences.Otherrecommendations used by the ICGS helpline and team. The wording of include aligning the language of the two policies and the bullying and harassment policy will also be amended, proceduresmoreclosely;amendingtheproceduredocuments to align more closely with that in the Equality Act 2010. to be clear that they provide an outline only of the The procedure will be altered to enable the independent procedure; making it clear that complaints can be made investigator to consider at the initial assessment stage of any former member of the parliamentary community; whether the complaint has already been fully and fairly including in the bullying and harassment policy that considered in another context. That is an important victimisation is an aggravating factor, as included in the development that will mean that double jeopardy is sexualmisconductpolicy;andfinally,includinginformation avoided. on data protection. Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): The Democratic I would like to provide some reassurance about whether Unionist party supports what the Government have the changes set out in the motion would have retrospective introduced, and I want to put that on the record. effect. For the majority of changes to the text of the Whenever we get the conclusions of what the Leader of policies and procedures, the question of retrospection the House is saying, it will be important for them to be doesnotarise.Someof thechangesarepurelylinguistic—for given—I am sure that this is going to be done—to the example, the change in terminology from “case manager” Northern Ireland Assembly first of all, and to the Scottish to“independentinvestigator”,toensurethatthedocuments Parliament and the Welsh Assembly so that they can reflect the terminology used by those involved in the endorse them in their own regional Administrations. process, or the change from “reporter”to “complainant” in sexual misconduct complaints. In those cases, it would Mr Rees-Mogg: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman not be meaningful to talk about retrospection. for making that extremely sensible point. I would not Other changes have been made to reflect existing want to trespass on the exclusive cognisance in their practice. For example, the factual accuracy check, which own fields of the various other Parliaments, but if it was introduced as a procedural step some time ago as a were thought useful I could certainly ensure that copies matter of fairness to both parties, is now expressly of what we propose were sent on an information basis. I referred to in the documents. Other changes have been am looking at both the SNP and the DUP in the hope made to clarify the language and to amend defects in that they would not think that that was an impertinence the drafting to ensure that the documents clearly reflect and an attempt to interfere. If those proposals were of the policy intention at the time they were made. It will use, however, I think that that would be a sensible thing be for the decision maker to decide how to apply the to do. policy in cases already under way, considering both the The ICGS will be streamlined with the removal of the language at the time and the intention. I will repeat that right to seek a review of the draft formal assessment, for the benefit of the House, because it is a fundamental which is a current means for a complainant to request point: it will be for the decision maker to decide how to review when an investigation concludes that the case is apply the policy in cases already under way, considering not upheld. The factual accuracy check will now be the both the language of the policy at the time and the intention. single point at which both parties, complainant and For Members or former Members, the Parliamentary responder, can correct inaccuracies in the report. The Commissioner for Standards makes the initial decision, system that we have had until now, which combines a which can then be appealed to the independent expert factual accuracy check and a review, has resulted in panel in accordance with the IEP’s own procedures. For substantial delay in some cases. We have debated the former staff, the house service is the decision maker, need for investigations to come to a conclusion more and for Members’ staff, the decision maker will be the speedily on a number of occasions, and this straightforward Member. measure will help to achieve that. There are also some minor changes where it is fair Another important recommendation concerns the and reasonable to apply the changes— introduction of a time limit for non-recent cases. That will apply only to bullying and harassment cases. The Sir Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): The Leader new timeframe will be brought in a year from now, of the House has addressed the issue that has been a applying to new complaints arising from 28 April 2022. concern to me and that led to me seeking support for an 457 Amendments to the Independent 28 APRIL 2021 Amendments to the Independent 458 Complaints and Grievance Scheme Complaints and Grievance Scheme amendment—the issue of retrospection—but I am rather Sir Charles Walker (Broxbourne) (Con): Then who disappointed that he does not seem to be ruling out the will decide whether a complaint is in or out of scope fact that changes to paragraph 4.3 are retrospective. according to the rules as drafted two years ago, which How can it be justified that we make retrospective are being changed today? changes to paragraph 4.3 which, subject to the decision maker, can be allowed to be lawful? Surely if we change Mr Rees-Mogg: The interpretation of the rules will the rules we should change them prospectively rather be for the people who are the decision makers. As I set than retrospectively. out earlier in my comments, ultimately it is for the IEP on appeal. In relation to Members’ staff, it would be the Mr Rees-Mogg: My hon. Friend makes an important Member themselves. For somebody working for the point. The issue is that it is not at this stage clear what House, it would be the House authorities, and for a decision the decision maker would make on the language Member of Parliament, it would be for the commissioner that is currently used in the light of the policy that was to determine what the rules at the time meant but not to adopted by the House. What we are passing today does jump to a change in the rules. That, I hope, is clear. I not change the ability of the decision maker to make a wish I could give the interpretation of what the rules decision on the language of the policy at the time. It is mean, which is what my right hon. and hon. Friends are not an attempt to say that the decision maker must asking for, but that is not my territory. I would then be follow a new set of words or an old set of words. It is for trespassing on the independence of this process, which them to look at what was there at the time both in is its whole virtue. I am simply making it clear that any policy and in terms of language and decide what the decision maker should base it on the language of the right decision is. policy at the time.

SirChristopherChope:Butparagraph16of theCommission Sir Charles Walker: On that basis, it is possible for a report states that the drafting of paragraph 4.3 has variety of decision makers looking at the rules as they merely were before they were changed to come up with different “been updated so that it more clearly reflects the policy intention decisions. Is that not a problem? One decision maker of the Commission and the House, when the resolution relating may interpret the rules in a different way from another to non-recent cases was passed in July 2019”. decision maker, and that in itself creates a problem. Without anticipating my own speech, all I can say is that there is no evidence at all that there was such a Mr Rees-Mogg: My hon. Friend makes a point that is policy intention at that time, and I am very worried that sorted out by the fact that there is an appeals system those words in paragraph 16 could be used by a decision and a senior body that can, on appeal, determine this, maker in order to justify what I would regard as retrospective which I imagine other decision makers would then want change. to follow. It is not the same as a court, but it is not entirely dissimilar. Lower courts can make a decision, Mr Rees-Mogg: It is not for me to say what decision but ultimately there is an appeal body that will make a the decision maker should come to, but the decision decision that we would then expect the lower-down maker should base any decision on the language of the decision makers to follow. I do not think that the problem policy at the time. It would not be fair to make a he outlines would last, because there is a proper appeals decision on our clarification ex post facto. I hope that is system to the independent expert panel, which, very helpful to the House. much at the request of Members across the House, contains very serious legal expertise, so that we can Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): I think this ensure that in all these cases, natural justice is done and is quite important. The House is perfectly entitled to it is fair to both complainants and respondents. change its rules, but it is an absolutely fundamental part of natural justice that laws should not be changed Sir Christopher Chope: Will the independent panel be retrospectively. Just for the sake of argument, we may, accessible by former Members, rather than just current for instance, be dealing with a historical case that happened Members? In paragraph 3 of the Commission’s report, several years ago and the Member has left this House. It there is a reference to the changes to which we are is absolutely vital that the Leader of the House makes it referring being clear that that person would be judged according to the “recommended by staff for clarification and updating of the rules at the time, not according to the way we are documents.” changing the rules now. Do I make myself clear? If he Are those staff involved in any of this decision making? makes that clear, that would be very helpful. Can my right hon. Friend ensure that those recommendations from the staff are published, so that Mr Rees-Mogg: My right hon. Friend is absolutely we can all see what they were and the basis on which clear, and that is broadly what I have been saying. What they were put forward? I am not committing to is to saying how the decision maker would interpret the rules as they were at the time, Mr Rees-Mogg: Alison Stanley carried out a very in view of the stated intention that the House had, thorough review and spoke to a number of people because there was a degree of disagreement between the across the parliamentary estate to get their views and to two. That is a matter for the decision maker to decide get a full understanding of how the overall system was on the basis of the wording at the time, not on the basis working. She drew her conclusions from that and made of subsequent changes to the wording. What we are recommendations to the Commission, the bulk of which doing today should not influence the decision maker’s will be implemented if the House decides to support view of what existed at the time in one direction or the tonight’sproposal. When discussions are held in confidence, other. It should be based on what existed at the time. it is unfair retrospectively to undermine that confidence, 459 Amendments to the Independent 28 APRIL 2021 Amendments to the Independent 460 Complaints and Grievance Scheme Complaints and Grievance Scheme [Mr Rees-Mogg] 5.27 pm so I could not give the commitment that the views given Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): I start by thanking to Alison Stanley should be made public, because the the Leader of the House for outlining the position in views were not solicited on that basis. relation to the motion. This is a good time to thank the people who started off the whole process of setting up the ICGS, who may have moved on before they had a Sir Christopher Chope: It was a mistake to put two chance to be thanked. It was a difficult task from the points in one intervention. My first point was about start, and they have done incredibly well. As the Leader whether former Members of Parliament will have access of the House has said, Alison Stanley reviewed the process to the independent panel for appeal. and then undertook an 18-month review, which was published on 22 February. I thank her for her diligence Mr Rees-Mogg: The independent expert panel is available in her work. for appeals for people who get caught up in the ICGS The Commission discussed a report on the proposed system. If any conclusion is made, I believe people have changes, and that is now before the House. It includes the right to ask to appeal to the panel. Not all appeals amendments made in response to the 18-month Stanley are guaranteed, but there is a right to ask for one. As far review, and additional changes to policies and procedures. as I am aware, that applies to anybody who comes up I want to deal with the response to the Stanley review. within the system. Wehave the introduction of a time limit from 28 April 2022, Let me come to the other minor changes. The original such that documents were clear that confidentiality is central to “a complaint may not be brought more than one year after the the process, but they made reference to the possibility incident…complained of.” that either a complainant or a respondent might wish to discuss the matter with a small number of people to At present, there is no time limit on non-recent cases. seek practical support. Those mentioned were managers Stanley suggested two years, acknowledging that tribunal and HR services or other relevant parties. The new cases have a time limit of three months. The Commission version refers expressly to trade union representatives report states that the time limit will be one year from the and party Whips, because concerns were very reasonably date of the incident complained of. raised that the document should make it clear that a The independent investigator will also be able to Member who discussed his or her case with a Whip consider at the initial assessment stage would not be in breach of the requirement of confidentiality. That clarification is relevant in all cases, whether or not “whether the complaint has already been fully and fairly considered the complaints procedure has already begun. in another context.” Where there is a real change to the policies and If it has, there will be grounds for rejecting the complaint. procedures, I am happy to confirm that the changes are We know of incidents where staff have taken a complaint not being applied retrospectively. In particular, the new through the normal grievance procedures and also through one-year time limit on complaints of bullying and the ICGS. As the Leader of the House outlined, we harassment will not be applied to any complaints made cannot have this double jeopardy. Again, the definitions before 28 April 2022, and that is clear from the text are being aligned with the Equality Act 2010 to include before the House. Alison Stanley also recommended the all the protected characteristics. The 18-month review removal of the complainant’s right of review because of found that the combination of a factual accuracy check the degree of overlap with the factual accuracy check. and the right of the complainant to seek a review of the Any complainant who has made a formal complaint investigators’findings had delayed some cases substantially, before the House’s approval of the amended texts will but the factual accuracy check remains available for continue to be able to request a review on the grounds both parties to correct factual inaccuracies. set out in the existing documents, namely that the I turn to the policy and procedural changes. These procedure was flawed or that substantial new evidence will use the same words for both the complainant and has become available. respondent for all bullying, harassment and sexual The purpose of all the changes we are debating today misconduct cases. It is also stated that the existing is to ensure that the ICGS is an effective, efficient, clear procedure documents have been shortened and amended and comprehensive system for complaints and support. to make it clear that they provide an outline only of the These alterations will make a difference to the running procedure, and that further detailed information on of the scheme and will help us to make progress towards the different stages of the process is available from both real and sustained culture change in Parliament—something the ICGS team and the relevant decision-making body. I know Members across the House are keen to continue The Leader of the House has not clarified some of to champion and support. I commend the motion to the the questions that were asked. I find it concerning that House. the procedures should be in lots of different places and that they are not in a usable form. We have Standing Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): I Orders and “Erskine May”, so things are out there and know that Mr Speaker and the other Deputy Speakers transparent. We also have obiter dicta from his podcast would want me to agree wholeheartedly with the about how Parliament works. Making it obscure and words of the Leader of the House about Ray Mortimer, asking the team in the relevant decision-making body whose service to the House is deeply appreciated, as is does not give clarity, certainty and transparency. People the kindness and courtesy that he has always shown should not have to go to different places to find out to us. We will miss his cheerful presence. We wish you what the procedures are. I am happy to work with him well, Ray. and anyone else to ensure that the procedures are published 461 Amendments to the Independent 28 APRIL 2021 Amendments to the Independent 462 Complaints and Grievance Scheme Complaints and Grievance Scheme in full, so that everyone is aware of them. Again, victimising differently, but as it was set out—as the hon. Member a complainant for bringing a complaint would be treated for Christchurch read out paragraph 4.3—it is fairly as an aggravating factor. clear that there are the two limbs and therefore that any I turn to the vexatious question that has been before changes should apply to future cases. the House on the change to the drafting in relation to non-recent cases, which was agreed in July—that it Sir Christopher Chope: I obviously agree with the right should be possible to complain about the conduct of hon. Lady’s assessment of the importance of getting any former member of the parliamentary community, proper clarity and ensuring that we are not going to be they Clerks or anyone else, whether or not they hold have retrospection, but may I also draw her attention to a parliamentary pass when the complaint is made. As the sentence in paragraph 3 of the Commission report? currently drafted, there is an “and” in paragraph 4.3, as I think my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House the hon. Member for Christchurch (Sir Christopher misunderstood that. It says that the changes that we are Chope) said. The person has to hold a parliamentary discussing were pass, and the change is to whether or not former members “recommended by staff for clarification and updating of the of the parliamentary community—whether it is a Clerk, documents.” a Member or anybody else—hold a parliamentary pass. I am not referring to the Alison Stanley recommendations; I think that that offends the principles of natural justice, this is something completely different. These changes one of which, I remind hon. Members, is procedural that are causing us concern were recommended by staff. fairness—the right to a fair hearing. That means that Is it unreasonable to ask whether we can see the document people know the rules by which they are being judged inwhichthoserecommendationsweremadeandseewhether and that people act fairly, act in good faith, without some of the staff who made those recommendations bias, and give each party an opportunity to state their case. may themselves have been involved or know decision makers? Procedural fairness, in my view, is not changing the rules and making them apply retrospectively. The Leader Valerie Vaz: I do not have an issue with clarity. In of the House did not actually say whether the rules were fact, I think it is really helpful to see the thinking behind retrospective or not, so I ask him to confirm whether why the changes are being made, so unless there is some any changes made today will apply to the current cases confidentiality issue, I do not see any problem. We are that are going forward. I know that he suggested that it here discussing this, and we are not getting any clarity was about the decision maker, but actually, as the hon. on it—certainly not from the interventions, or from the Member for Broxbourne (Sir Charles Walker) pointed responses. There is no clarity on this, and I wish there out, it is an individual decision maker. They are all were. There could be. That actually helps to make a separate and they are all different. That is why there system much fairer and work better, so I agree with the should be a set of rules that everybody can see and hon. Gentleman. everybody can apply. In no quasi-judicial situation do we ever have different decision makers making different Let me move on to the next part of the Stanley report. decisions on a rule that is not clear. The amendment She found in her review that those with a BAME—visible sought to clarify that, so I hope that the Leader of the minority—background were less likely to have used the House will too. ICGS helplines compared with their white colleagues. She was concerned that several surveys Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): I apologise “carried out across Parliament have indicated that these groups are more likely to report that they have experienced bullying and to you, Mr Deputy Speaker, that I did not hear the harassment, sexual misconduct or discrimination.” opening comments from the Leader of the House because I was chairing a Committee meeting in another building. Despite that finding, there are no specific recommendations Following as closely as I can what the shadow Leader of in the report that try to remedy it. Certain things have the House is saying, as I understand it—on this particular been remedied, but not others. In the light of the paragraph 4.3, about passes—I presume that she would current climate, with Black Lives Matter, they should be not have any objection to a change in the rules saying, considered. “Passes used to be required but no longer will be Interestingly, in the introduction to its 2019 report required”, as long as that applied only to future cases. It “Stand in my shoes”, which has been published again seems rather strange that it should be said, “We are not on the intranet for Stephen Lawrence Day, ParliREACH changing the rule—we are just clarifying what the House stated that its findings confirmed its view that meant previously, and when it previously said that the “there is insufficient focus on and actions to challenge racial bias person has to still hold a parliamentary pass, what it (both conscious or unconscious), and that many BAME”— really meant was that he or she did not have to be visible minority— holding a parliamentary pass at all.” That is surely not a “staff expend effort each day to defend their right to work in clarification of the rule; it is a change of the rule and, Parliament and to progress through the organisation.” therefore,it should be forward-looking and not retrospective, It found that only 54% felt should it not? “confident…to raise issues of concern”, Valerie Vaz: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for and 56% felt “comfortable being themselves”. that. I think he missed the earlier discussion about the We know from other regulatory bodies that regulate lack of clarity around that, but it should not be the case professions, such as the General Medical Council and that current cases are subject to a changes of rules. To the Solicitors Regulation Authority, that BAME—visible me, that is a breach of natural justice. We cannot have minority—figures are over-represented among those different decision makers applying the rules as they complained about. The Alison Stanley review recommended interpret them. In my view, we cannot have changes in that procedure to cases, because each case will be dealt with “demographic analysis of the Helpline usage statistics” 463 Amendments to the Independent 28 APRIL 2021 Amendments to the Independent 464 Complaints and Grievance Scheme Complaints and Grievance Scheme [Valerie Vaz] My interest in the issue arises from when I was on the Standards Committee, particularly during the 2017-19 should be Parliament. During that time, I was involved in discussions “carried out as soon as possible”. leading up to the creation of the ICGS and its extension I hope that the Leader of the House will ensure that in 2019. I have read the conclusion of the House of that is undertaken, because it is unclear whether that Commons Commission following Alison Stanley’s review, recommendation has been implemented, or whether and I accept that the Commission is right to take the there are any other measures taken to address this issue. necessary measures in response to that review, but my concerns tonight are about the Commission’sendorsement I want to draw hon. and right hon. Members’ of attention—they may not be able to see this in some of the reports—to the costs of the ICGS. Its budget for “other changes recommended by staff for clarification and updating”. 2021-22 is £1.8 million. We have investigators. I recall I say to my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House that from the start of setting up the ICGS that we wanted it those are changes recommended by staff not in response to be as fair as possible. Some 28% of those investigators to a request from Alison Stanley, but off their own bat. I are police officers: these are not criminal matters, although do not know how they have appeared, who they were if they are criminal they should go to the criminal sent to or why we cannot see them, but it would be useful justice system, and that is what they are there for. for the purposes of transparency if we could. I think there are many barristers on the Attorney Those are set out in paragraphs 12 to 18 of the report. General’s panel, even the C panel, who are not very As has been discussed, the most significant change is in expensive—they are quite cheap—who could do the paragraph 16, which changes the scope of the provisions investigations cheaply and weigh the evidence in a proper on bullying and harassment. I do not have any problem way in a fair system. In the end, we all want a system with the revision, but what I do have a problem with is that works. We want to stop bad behaviour. It is in all the possibility that that change is retrospective. The our interests to have a fair system that is transparent so issue of retrospection was discussed quite usefully in the that we abide by the rules of natural justice and we get original report. There was a legal opinion from Tom justice for all. In that sense, I support the motion. Linden, QC, on what were then being discussed as As there will not be another opportunity to do so pre-scheme cases, and the opinion is set out on page 93 unless the Leader of the House schedules more business, in the delivery report, published in July 2018. In that I want to say a few thank yous at the end of the day. The legal opinion, Tom Linden makes it clear that there is a Parliamentary Digital Service is getting us all back to common law presumption against retrospective effect. I Parliament. We have a message from PDS to turn off hope that we are not going to get into territory where and turn on our computers. It is showing us what to do litigation will arise if people feel that the common law as more people return to the estate. I specifically want presumption against retrospection is not being honoured to thank Ian Doubleday in Norman Shaw South, who by the decision makers. has been really helpful in enabling Members to come In that opinion, Tom Linden quotes Lord Brightman back, and in keeping us and Members’ staff safe. giving a good definition about what is retrospective and I pay tribute to one of our senior doorkeepers, Ray what is not. Lord Brightman says that it is Mortimer, who has been here since 2003. He has led the “retrospective if it takes away or impairs a vested right acquired Speaker’s procession for eight years, and the procession under existing laws, or creates a new obligation, or imposes a new to the Lords during state opening twice. He has been duty, or attaches a new disability, in regard to events already through six Serjeants at Arms and three Speakers, and past.” is on his fifth Prime Minister. His good friend, mentor It seems to me, from what we have heard, that the changes and boss—in capital letters—Phil Howse said: to paragraph 4.3 would be regarded as retrospective if “Ray has been a superb asset not only to the doorkeeper team those principles were applied. but to the House, dedicating the past 18 years to delivering The words in paragraph 16 that these changes are fantastic service. His colleagues will miss his knowledge and “sothatitmoreclearlyreflectsthepolicyintentionof theCommission” guidance to the team. He is going from one house of drama”— here— are weasel words. I can say that there is no evidence whatsoever—I was on the Standards Committee—that “to another, the Marlowe theatre in Canterbury. We wish Ray and the Standards Committee, the Commission or this House his wife Sam good luck and all the very best for the future, and thank him for his amazing public service and the loyal service to ever intended, when extending the scope to non-recent the House of Commons.” cases in July 2019, that it should be possible to complain of the conduct of any former member of the parliamentary I am sure the whole House agrees. community until that person died. In other words, it might From me, on a personal level, and just as the Leader be 10, 20 or 30 years hence. of the House said, Ray is always good fun. He is always ready with advice about what is going on in the Chamber. Sir Edward Leigh: Would it not be helpful if the He is extremely supportive of Members, all our work Leader of the House, when he sums up this debate, and the smooth running of the Chamber. He is always made it absolutely clear that in the case of historic smiling and in a good mood. We will remember him as allegations, if the subject of that complaint is no longer our little Ray of sunshine. Thank you, Ray, from all a passholder, then that complaint should be judged of us. firmly on the rules of the time? 5.42 pm Sir Christopher Chope: I think the Leader of the SirChristopherChope(Christchurch)(Con):MayItoo House will say that he has more or less said that, but express my thanks and good wishes to Ray Mortimer? anything else that he can do to reconfirm that would be 465 Amendments to the Independent 28 APRIL 2021 Amendments to the Independent 466 Complaints and Grievance Scheme Complaints and Grievance Scheme extremely helpful. Where is the evidence that there was 5.51 pm a misrepresentation of the intention in the wording of Janet Daby (Lewisham East) (Lab) [V]: Although I paragraph 4.3? The text of the paragraph remained the am speaking virtually, I, too, wish to join in expressing same in July 2019 as it was in June 2018, and if the new my thanks and best wishes to Ray Mortimer. text had been intended to change the rules, then I think the Standards Committee, this House and the Commission I welcome the amendments being proposed today. I would have been totally in opposition to any suggestion can see that both Houses take the culture of bullying that we could expose former Members of Parliament to and harassment extremely seriously in Parliament, and the risk of being complained against and investigated Mr Speaker has shown his commitment to all staff for the rest of their lives after they had left the House. In working on the estate. The creation of the independent a sense, what this Commission report seems to say is complaints and grievance scheme is a significant that that was the intention, but it was never properly undertaking, and we need a system that works. In the expressed in words. My view is that if that had been the spirit of supporting the scheme to be the best it can be, I intention and it had been expressed in words, it would need to raise the issue of discrimination against black, never have been passed by this House, which is why I am Asian and minority ethnic people, to ensure that it is agitated about this and particularly keen to see the terms not overlooked—it has already been mentioned in this in which the staff were recommending these changes. House, so I am fairly confident that it is not being Mr Deputy Speaker, I realise that other people want overlooked in this debate. to join in the debate, but this issue will not go away ParliREACH, the workplace equality network, has unless we clarify that these changes will not be retrospective focused on enhancing racial and cultural awareness in in any respect. Parliament. It released a report in 2019 showing the scale of difficulties that people from diverse backgrounds 5.49 pm face. The “Stand in my Shoes” report found that this Owen Thompson (Midlothian) (SNP): May I associate staffing group in particular faced daily struggles to be myself and my party with the comments made by treated with respect and with decency; from cleaning Madam Deputy Speaker, the Leader of the House and staff right through to MPs and peers, we can be made to the shadow Leader of the House in paying tribute to feel unwelcome in the very place we work in. Staff Ray? [Interruption.] He has changed, just like that! It reported having their presence questioned and equal goes without saying that all of us in this place, who have opportunities denied. ParliREACH said that many of the use and the benefit of the experience of all the its members were reluctant to speak up when they felt Doorkeeping staff, find that they are just such a resource discriminated against. They spoke about worrying that and provide such guidance, especially for Members they would be seen as “calling the race card”, and they when they first come here; they help us with basic things “feared recriminations” as a result. They felt that they such as finding our way around and how the place had to be cautious to pick their battles carefully. That works. They really are an amazing team, so I add my should not be the environment that staff have to be thanks and tribute to Ray and all the Doorkeeping work in, on top of the work they have to do; it is very team, and I certainly wish Ray all the best for his new distressing. Parliament must therefore advocate justice endeavours. equally for all protected characteristics. I also largely echo the comments made by the shadow I myself had a completely demoralising encounter Leader of the House, as we very much support these when I was relatively new to this House. I was made to amendments, the intention behind them and what we feel as though I did not belong here, and I feel that this are looking to achieve. I add my thanks to Alison was because of my gender as well as my ethnicity. Stanley for the review that has been conducted. No one Although this happened almost three years ago and I deserves to be victimised, bullied, disrespected or harassed went through the formal complaints system, it is still yet in any workplace, let alone in a Parliament, and we to be resolved. Does this tell us that tackling racial certainly should not be tolerating any form of sexual discrimination is a priority for the ICGS? It absolutely harassment or assault of any kind. So the processes we must be. Cases must be addressed faster, and each one have in place and the review certainly help in that regard. treated with the care and sensitivity it deserves. We have certainly found that the fact that there is no ParliREACH pointed out the need to make the ICGS cut-off date now for sexual misconduct cases is a real, more accessible for its members, including the non-desk- positive step forward. I agree that we perhaps need to based staff in Parliament, many of whom are from look again at the time limitations on other incidents, black, Asian and minority ethnicities, for whom it is not because that needs further review, but, as with all of easy to make a complaint. If they do not work at a desk these things, this process needs to be organic. It needs to or own a computer at home, how can we say that the be able to adapt as it moves forward. What we agree system is working equally for them? If their only option tonight cannot simply be what it is for ever more; it is to report something to their manager, who might needs to adapt to circumstances as we move forward. At themselves be the problem, it is not serving their needs. a time when trust in politicians is at an all-time low—there We must understand that many people coming from is no hiding from that—it is crucial that we do everything diverse backgrounds struggle to believe that processes we can to enhance that trust with the public, who send such as the ICGS will deliver justice. We need to ensure us here to do a job. They send us here to represent them, that they are confident in the process, and that the to be upstanding citizens and to do our bit to move ICGS is working as well for them as for others. The things forward. I do not think it is unreasonable to amendments we are discussing will make going through expect that we should all be held to the highest possible the ICGS a much smoother process, but I hope that the standards on dignity, courtesy and respect. It should comments I have expressed will be taken into consideration not detract from anything that we do that we put in so that the ICGS can be further improved to best serve place the measures before us tonight. all the people it pledges to help and support. 467 Amendments to the Independent 28 APRIL 2021 Amendments to the Independent 468 Complaints and Grievance Scheme Complaints and Grievance Scheme 5.55 pm Perthshire (Pete Wishart), who is a member of the Mr Rees-Mogg: I am grateful to all those who have Commission, is always fully engaged with our discussions participated in the debate and, as always, to the shadow and makes a serious contribution to our deliberations. Leader of the House who, along with me, serves on the I am concerned about the issue raised by the hon. Commission. Of course, although these recommendations Member for Lewisham East (Janet Daby) about a complaint are brought forward by me as Leader of the House, that has taken three years. That is one of the reasons they are brought forward on behalf of the Commission, that we had the Alison Stanley review. It is one of the so a number of questions that she raised are questions issues that has come up up most commonly from people for the Commission rather than for me as Leader of the who have been involved with or have an interest in the House. The Commission has its own spokesman, and as ICGS—a feeling that things are taking too long. It is we both serve on it, that is probably the best way of absolutely the aim of the Commission and the ICGS getting the information that the right hon. Lady requires, itself to ensure that things happen in a timely manner. because I do not wish to blur the lines between what is I thoroughly agree that every Member of this House my responsibility as Leader of the House and what and everybody who works for or in the House should be is the Commission’s responsibility. treated with respect and decency, regardless of their My hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch ethnic background or any other background issues. (Sir Christopher Chope) went back to his fundamental That is fundamental to the House, to our democracy point, and I want to give him clarification on who may and, dare I say, to the constitution of this nation. I think appeal to the IEP. There is one category of Member or we can go back—although I will not in this speech—to former Member that is excluded, and that is a former Magna Carta and the idea that we have equality under Member who had the good fortune—if it is a good the law and that we all should have; that is a fundamental fortune—to go to another place. They would not be position of the British constitution. able to use the IEP. Anybody who brings a complaint I am, of course—I reiterate this—acting for the against a Member is able to appeal to the IEP, and any Commission, but in acting for the Commission. I commend Member or former Member except a peer is also able to the motion to the House. 1 take their case to the IEP. Question put and agreed to. My hon. Friend reiterated his concern about the issue of retrospection. The best I can do is to go back to what Resolved, I said in my speech, because this is fundamental. The That this House endorses the report of the House of Commons people considering any of these cases must do so looking Commission entitled Amendments to the Independent Complaints and Grievance Scheme, HC 1384, laid on Thursday 22 April; and at the language of the policy at the time. I said that approves the revised bullying and harassment policy and outline twice when I was speaking, I think I then reiterated it in procedure, and sexual misconduct policy and outline procedure, an intervention, and I have now reiterated it a fourth set out in Annexes 1 to 4 of that report. time in winding up. I think that is very clear. Where I cannot be clear, because we have not had a decision, is Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Before we on how the panel would interpret the rules at the time, move on to the other motions, I too would like to send because that is rightly a matter for the panel because it my thanks and congratulations to Ray Mortimer, who I is independent. I hope that I am giving my hon. Friend can see is hovering at the back. Ray, I have been a most of the comfort that he wants, without trying to be Member for 29 years and you have therefore been a part a soothsayer and make a prediction of what may be of my life for the past 18 years, as you will have been for determined in the future. many people sitting around the Chamber. You have heard the accolades. You will be able to get Hansard Dr Julian Lewis: I know that my right hon. Friend tomorrow, take it home with you and, in your future will only be able to give me his opinion on this, in the life, I hope you will flip through the pages and read the light of what he has just said, but does he know of any warm wishes that you have received from so many specific historical case that is currently under way that people here. I hope it brings you and your family great would be ruled out of scope unless the rewording of joy. You have been very much front of house during the paragraph 4.3 was applied retrospectively? past 18 years; irrespective of what you are going to do Mr Rees-Mogg: My right hon. Friend raises a question with the Marlowe theatre, I hope you will take it in the of considerable importance and one that I have been right spirit—as I know you will—when I say, in the very careful to avoid in all these discussions. It seems to future, break a leg. Good luck. me that it would be quite wrong to be making this This may also be the appropriate time to thank decision, in relation either to what I have said about the everybody who has made the past parliamentary Session rules at the time or to the new rules, with reference to work for us, under the most strenuous of conditions. I any specific cases. That is fundamental to having a just do not think that any of us thought, as we went into this and fair system. On the question he asks me, I know of covid situation, that we would be able to get democracy gossip, but I have no confirmed knowledge of reports of working in the way that we have. It was a bit clunky to who may or may not be facing an investigation. In all begin with, but—my goodness me—we have learnt lessons the deliberations I have done, whether on the Commission, and it has worked incredibly well. Wethank the technicians in preparing my speech or in discussions I have had and the broadcasting unit; we told Ray to break a leg, privately with the shadow Leader of the House, I have but they have been breaking their backs to ensure that done it on the basis of general principles rather than trying the democracy here has worked. to consider specific names. I think that is very important. We thank everybody: the Doorkeepers, the catering I thank the hon. Member for Midlothian (Owen staff, the security, the cleaners and everybody who has Thompson) for his support and for the contribution of made this democracy work. Thank you very much. We his hon. Friend, the hon. Member for Perth and North hope that there is light at the end of the tunnel, that the 1.[Official Report, 12 May 2021, Vol. 695, c. 2MC.] 469 28 APRIL 2021 470 stress that they have faced will be eased somewhat with National Minimum Wage Enforcement the relaxations in the coming weeks and months, and that we can get our democracy back working as normal. Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House I know that is what everybody in this place wants. do now adjourn.—(James Morris.) Thank you everybody. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): We are going I remind the House that, in accordance with the order to have Andrew Selous on the videolink. While you are of the House today and Standing Order No. 41A(3), speaking, Andrew, if you do not mind, we will be any Divisions on the next two motions will not be sanitising the Government Dispatch Box, and I know deferred. Mr Scully has been under strict orders not to go anywhere near it until it has been properly sanitised. Business without Debate 6.5 pm DELEGATED LEGISLATION Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con) [V]: Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, and I am very grateful Order No. 118(6)), to Mr Speaker for granting me this debate. I am very proud to support a Government who have ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION committed to the national living wage being equivalent That the draft Air Quality (Legislative Functions) (Amendment) to two thirds of the median income by 2024, in addition Regulations 2021, which were laid before this House on 22 March, to reducing the age for accessing the national living be approved.—(James Morris.) wage to 23 this month and to 21 by April 2024. We want Question agreed to. work to be worth while and an effective route out of Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing poverty, so it is important that everyone is entitled to Order No. 118(6)), the legal minimum wage. Unfortunately, the combined impact of the National SENIOR COURTS OF ENGLAND AND WALES Minimum Wage Act 1998 and the National Minimum That the draft Civil Proceedings Fees (Amendment) Order Wage Regulations 2015, along with the provisions of 2021, which was laid before this House on 8 March, be approved.— the Care Act 2014 and the enforcement role of Her (James Morris.) Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, have all been completely Question agreed to. ineffective in enforcing the law for one of my constituents, a carer who is owed £62,961 of unpaid wages below the minimum wage. Four other carers were in the same PETITION position. Who knows how many others across the United Kingdom are in the same position. I will use this case to Levelling Up Fund demonstrate how the law has not worked effectively. I do not expect my hon. Friend the Minister to comment 6.4 pm on the individual case, but I would like him to set out the plans the Government have to remedy the flaws in Alexander Stafford (Rother Valley) (Con): I rise to the current legislation, so that an effective remedy can present a petition on behalf of the residents of Rother be provided to people such as my constituent where Valley calling for a powerful bid to be placed by Rotherham now there is none. Metropolitan Borough Council to secure a grant from the levelling-up fund. My petition, both online and on My constituent—I shall call her Mrs Wright; it is not paper, has received strong local support, with over her real name—provided care for seven years to a 1,800 constituents signing it. The people of Rother disabled woman, whom I shall call Mrs Edwards, which Valley are calling for our high streets to be transformed. is also not her real name. The wages to pay Mrs Wright I believe it is high time the local authority delivers on were provided by Luton Borough Council and paid by a this priority. local charity into the account of the person being cared for. Checks were then made by Luton Borough Council The petition states: to make sure that the money provided was paid over to The petition of residents of the constituency of Rother Valley, the carer. Section 33 of the Care Act 2014 enables care Declares that a strong bid for the Levelling Up Fund must be to be devolved to the person being cared for, who enters placed on behalf of the Rother Valley constituency; further that into a contract of employment with her carer. high streets in Rother Valley should form a central aspect of the bid placed; and further that proposals put forward by Dinnington After seven years of good and faithful work caring Town Council and Dinnington Community Land Trust should be for Mrs Edwards, the local charity that had received prioritised. funding from Luton Borough Council sent the carer a The petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons schedule showing that, throughout the entire seven-year call on the Government to urge Rotherham Metropolitan Borough period, she had been underpaid a total of nearly £63,000. Council to ensure that high streets in the Rother Valley constituency The local charity also paid the premium for an insurance can be rejuvenated via the Levelling Up Fund. policy to cover employers’ liability and legal expenses And the petitioners remain, etc. and costs should the carer have cause to sue the person [P002662] being cared for—her employer, Mrs Edwards. Mrs Wright, the carer, was never provided with the contract of employment by her employer. Both Luton Borough Council and the local charity say that they are not liable for this massive underpayment of wages because the contract of employment is between the carer and 471 National Minimum Wage 28 APRIL 2021 National Minimum Wage 472 Enforcement Enforcement [Andrew Selous] have been satisfied that the person being cared for was capable of managing direct payments by herself or with the person being cared for, and has nothing to do with the help of the charity asked to provide that help. As I either of them. The legal expenses insurer did not even said, a local charity used by Luton Borough Council bother to reply, which is completely shameful. There is has produced a schedule showing an underpayment of no point in suing the person being cared for—the wages throughout the entire seven-year period amounting employer—because she lives in a rented flat, has no to nearly £63,000. other assets and all her income comes from state benefits. I have raised this matter before on the Floor of the As Mrs Wright’s solicitor said to me, House with the Leader of the House, who said: “this is a wrong with no remedy.” “I am clear that careworkers provide essential support to some of The aim of this debate—so that the Minister and I are the most vulnerable members of society, and it is essential that not wasting our time—is to make sure that a remedy is they are paid in accordance with the law, including the national provided to Mrs Wright and other carers in her position, minimum wage, for the work they do. This is a responsibility of so that the law requiring the payment of the minimum local authorities, which should ensure that personal budgets are wage applies to them as well as to everyone else. sufficient to deliver a person’s care needs, including making sure that they cover the cost of wages, and local authorities have a This matter was first brought to my attention in the duty to monitor how personal budgets are spent. However, the summer of 2018. I did my research and found out that Department of Health and Social Care will take this up with the everything I had been told about the inability to secure local authority and ask it to investigate what sounds like a very the payment of wages legally due was true. I contacted serious and concerning case.”—[Official Report, 25 July 2019; Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs to try to get Vol. 663, c. 1450.] enforcement action. HMRC said in the letter back to I have also had a meeting with the Minister who is me that it was replying tonight. “determined that everyone who is entitled to the national minimum In the 2019 Queen’sSpeech, the Government announced wage should receive it.” that they would legislate to create a single enforcement That turned out to be a hollow phrase, because no body in an employment Bill. That Bill would give us the effective enforcement action can be taken against an opportunity to remedy the very serious loophole that I employer who has no assets and, indeed, never had any have outlined. We should also remember the payment in the first place. Luton Borough Council wrote back to of premiums for an insurance policy to cover the employer’s me to say: liability and legal expenses and costs, which has been of “any issue regarding alleged historical underpayment of minimum no assistance whatsoever in this case. wage will be a matter for the person being cared for and the carer to resolve.” The Minister will agree with me, I am sure, about the importance of people receiving the wages they are legally I should point out that there is no “alleged”underpayment, entitled to. We share a commitment to increasing the because the agency employed by Luton Borough Council minimum wage to make it always worth while to go out to check wages paid against wages legally required to be to work and to lift more people out of poverty. I urge paid came up with a schedule showing the underpayment the Minister to make sure that the single enforcement of nearly £63,000. body in the employment Bill will be up to the task of Having hit a brick wall with HMRC and Luton providing effective remedy in situations such as the one Borough Council, which was the local authority responsible that I have described, and that it has retrospective for providing the person being cared for with funds to power to help diligent, hard-working and highly pay for the care provided, I went to see the previous compassionate carers such as my constituent, Mrs Wright. Minister for Small Business, Consumers and Corporate Responsibility, who was very sympathetic and agreed that there was a problem. At that meeting, I was told 6.15 pm that local authorities did indeed have a responsibility The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, for direct payments, in that they must be satisfied that Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully): I congratulate personal budget holders are capable of paying the minimum my hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire wage, and the local authority should have undertaken a (Andrew Selous) on securing today’s important debate six-month review, after which it should have reviewed and, indeed, his tenacity in supporting and representing the making of direct payment no later than every 12 months. his constituent. I am proud to serve as the Minister The Minister’s predecessor then helpfully wrote to responsible for the national minimum wage, the national the chief executive of Luton Borough Council, pointing living wage and workers’ rights, among my other out that it should have had an “effective monitoring responsibilities. I very much value his generous words process” of the direct payments to ensure that the on the benefits of the national minimum wage to make individual fulfils their responsibilities as an employer sure that we can encourage people, as he rightly says, and that, following the six-month review, the local and ensure that work pays. We must protect people on authority should have reviewed the making of direct the lowest pay grades, but make sure that they stay in payment no later than every 12 months. In its reply, work and have a fruitful career. Luton Borough Council said that the carer had been The Government are committed to building an economy paid a fixed weekly rate based on unmeasured work that works for everyone. Through the national minimum hours, when in fact the carer had very clear hours that wage and the national living wage, we continue to she was expected to work. ensure that the lowest paid in society are rewarded fairly The Minister’s predecessor also wrote to the Minister for their contribution to the economy. In April, we for Care at the Department of Health and Social Care increased the national living wage by 2.2% to £8.91, to explain the problem. The previous Minister for Care which is the highest ever UK minimum wage. A full-time wrote back to say that Luton Borough Council should worker on the national living wage will see their annual 473 National Minimum Wage 28 APRIL 2021 National Minimum Wage 474 Enforcement Enforcement earnings rise by over £345. That amounts to a total a variety of webinars and educational videos that increase of more than £4,000 since the national living accumulated nearly 20,000 views. One of those webinars wage was announced in 2015. is aimed specifically at the social care sector, covering We have lowered the age threshold for the national travel time, waiting time and breaks. About 12,000 letters living wage to 23 and, as a result, 23-year-olds and are being sent to Care Quality Commission-registered 24-year-olds will get a 71p increase. We have increased providers of home care service to highlight that webinar. the time for which employers must keep minimum wage The Government acknowledge the particular challenges records from three to six years. That means that workers in enforcing the minimum wage in the care sector. We will get more of the historical arrears that they are estimate that approximately 27,000 social care workers owed. The Government are committed to cracking down were underpaid the national living wage or national on employers who fail to pay the national minimum or minimum wage in 2020. That represents just over 3% of national living wage. all workers in the sector and is in line with previous years. All workers deserve the wage they are legally Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank hon. Member entitled to, but particularly key workers in the current for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) for context of the coronavirus pandemic. The Government introducing the debate. I am always encouraged by therefore asked HRMC to focus on the sector in its what the Minister says, and it is encouraging to hear the targeted enforcement activity. We have also recently things that have been done. However, there are loopholes published comprehensive revised minimum wage guidance that allow the hours of casual workers not to be recorded for all employers. That includes guidance on the recent and an appropriate minimum wage is not enforced, so Supreme Court judgment on sleep-in shifts, where we does he not agree that they must be closed? Do his now have clarity after years of revolving court judgments. Government intend to ensure that employers will begin But I am well aware of my hon. Friend’s concerns doing the right thing instead of being able to avoid it, as about social care workers. We met late last year, as he they can at the moment? outlined, to discuss the issue of care workers providing care to individuals with direct payment arrangements, Paul Scully: The hon. Gentleman makes an important, also known as personal budget holders. I appreciate twofold point. First, on anomalies, ignorance is no that the situation with personal budget holders is particularly defence when it comes to paying the national minimum tricky as they are vulnerable individuals, but in minimum wage, and secondly, that is where enforcement comes in. wage terms they are often the employers of their carers. I shall expand on that in a second. He is absolutely right That means, under minimum wage legislation, that any to raise these issues, to make sure, as I have said, that enforcement action by HMRC for underpayment of companies are not balancing their books on the poorest their care workers can only be taken against these paid in their workforce and in society. individuals. I would like to give some assurances on how enforcement works in practice in such cases. Where We relaunched the minimum wage naming scheme complaints are received, HMRC works with all parties on 31 December, naming and shaming 139 employers, to ensure that personal budget holders receive the necessary including some of the UK’s biggest household names, help and support while also continuing to protect the for failing to pay the minimum wage. We have also more rights of workers. As my hon. Friend said, local authorities than doubled the budget for minimum wage enforcement have a duty of care under the Care Act 2014 to give and compliance since 2015. There are now over 400 officers personal budget holders clear advice about their in Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs dedicated to responsibilities as an employer. Local authorities must ensuring compliance with the minimum wage. also be satisfied that a personal budget holder is capable I should like briefly to share the results of HMRC’s of managing direct payments, and should put in place work in the 2020-21 financial year. As we have heard, it an effective monitoring process related to those direct was a really challenging year for the whole country. payments. Crucially, this involves checking to ensure Many of HMRC’s investigations are carried out face to that the individual is fulfilling their responsibilities as face. Its officers can arrive unannounced at business an employer. I understand that there are examples of premises to check minimum wage records or to interview local authorities stepping up to financially assist personal employers and workers. Those face-to-face visits clearly budget holders where minimum wage cases are brought had to be limited in line with covid restrictions, and against them. I strongly encourage this, and it is in line with many businesses closing their doors. Nevertheless, with the local authority’s Care Act duties, but ultimately the Government believe that the pandemic is no excuse HMRC needs to protect the rights of any underpaid for failing to pay staff correctly, especially in sectors worker. such as social care and retail, which have provided Where arrears have been repaid to the worker, HMRC invaluable services over the past year. I am pleased that has discretion on whether to issue a formal notice of HMRC continued its enforcement and compliance work, underpayment. HMRC rightly makes limited use of its prioritising desk work where possible and expanding its discretion in practice, but cases brought against personal educational work with employers and workers. budget holders are instances where I would expect it to Despite the pandemic, in 2020-21 HMRC closed over consider using that discretion. I therefore urge workers 2,700 cases, securing more than £16.7 million in arrears who care for personal budget holders and who believe for more than 155,000 workers. It issued 575 penalties them to have been underpaid, such as my hon. Friend’s worth over £14 million. HMRC also contacted more constituent, to complain to HMRC or contact ACAS than 770,000 employers and workers to improve awareness for advice. I understand, having spoken to my hon. of the minimum wage. As part of this, it sent over Friend, that this is clearly an issue—although I cannot 400,000 texts to apprentices regarding the risks of comment on his individual case in detail—that is a good underpayment from unpaid training time. It wrote to few years old. As I say, I admire his tenacity in working nearly 200,000 employers and workers. HRMC produced with the council as well, pushing the council to do more 475 National Minimum Wage 28 APRIL 2021 National Minimum Wage 476 Enforcement Enforcement [Paul Scully] My hon. Friend talked about the single enforcement body, which is indeed something we are consulting on and also speaking to my predecessor as well as to me. I and working through, not least as we move towards the know that my hon. Friend is calling for HMRC to be introduction of an employment Bill. We are taking the able to enforce directly against local authorities in such time to reflect on the lessons that we have learned from cases, but HMRCcan enforce only against the employer— the covid-19 situation—the baked-in behaviour changes that is laid out in primary legislation. to work practices in the wider sense of the employment It is right that there is a clear line so that employers Bill—and the single enforcement body will be a really are always clear about their responsibilities and workers important part of that. I look forward to my hon. are always clear about their rights. Any change could Friend’s contributions to the debate when we introduce call into question the other scenarios in which multiple forward legislation to bring that new body into existence. parties are involved in employment, such as in respect My hon. Friend made some important points and I of agency workers, umbrella companies or contractors. am really pleased to have had the opportunity to respond. That could lead to protracted court cases to determine The Government are committed to ensuring that all who is responsible for paying the minimum wage, which workers are paid at least the minimum wage, which is would only delay workers getting the pay to which they their legal entitlement. We also recognise that personal are legally entitled. We therefore have no plans to change budget holders and individuals who arrange their own the minimum wage legislation. care are often among the most vulnerable in society. We are extremely proud of all our health and social When complaints are received, HMRC will work with care staff and recognise their extraordinary commitment, all parties to ensure that individuals receive the help and especially during the covid pandemic. The 1.5 million support that they need, while continuing to protect the people who make up the paid social care workforce rights of workers. I look forward to continuing to work provide an invaluable service to the nation, especially with ministerial colleagues to ensure that all care workers during the pandemic. Putting social care on a sustainable are paid appropriately under the National Minimum footing where everybody is treated with dignity and Wage Act. respect is one of the biggest challenges our society faces. Finally, Mr Deputy Speaker, may I associate myself There are complex questions to address and we want to with your words and wish you a very good Prorogation—or give them our full consideration in the light of current whatever the term is? Members, staff and your team circumstances,which is whythe Government are committed have played an amazing role in allowing us to continue to the sustainable improvement of the adult social care the scrutiny of the Government’s work and our work as system. The Department for Health and Social Care will a fully functioning democracy. bring forward plans for workforce reform later this year. We are providing an extra £341 million for adult Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Thank you, social care, to pay for infection, prevention and control Minister; that is much appreciated and I will ensure that measures and to support rapid testing to the end of that message gets passed on to the Speaker and the June 2021. That will bring specific funding for adult others in the team. social care during the pandemic to almost £1.8 billion. Question put and agreed to. We are also providing councils with access to more than £1 billion of additional funding for social care in 2021-22, 6.27 pm on top of the significant support provided over the past House adjourned. year to support the sector in dealing with covid-19. 477 28 APRIL 2021 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 478

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The following is the list of Members currently certified Harriett Baldwin (West as eligible for a proxy vote, and of the Members nominated Worcestershire) (Con) as their proxy: Steve Barclay (North East Stuart Andrew Cambridgeshire) (Con) Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy Hannah Bardell (Livingston) Owen Thompson (SNP) Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney Bell Ribeiro-Addy North and Stoke Newington) Paula Barker (Liverpool, Chris Elmore (Lab) Wavertree) (Lab) Debbie Abrahams (Oldham Chris Elmore Mr John Baron (Basildon and Stuart Andrew East and Saddleworth) (Lab) Billericay) (Con) Nigel Adams (Selby and Stuart Andrew Simon Baynes (Clwyd South) Stuart Andrew Ainsty) (Con) (Con) Bim Afolami (Hitchin and Stuart Andrew Margaret Beckett (Derby Chris Elmore Harpenden) (Con) South) (Lab) Adam Afriyie (Windsor) Stuart Andrew Apsana Begum (Poplar and Bell Ribeiro-Addy (Con) Limehouse) (Lab) Imran Ahmad Khan Stuart Andrew Aaron Bell (Newcastle-under- Stuart Andrew (Wakefield) (Con) Lyme) (Con) Nickie Aiken (Cities of Stuart Andrew Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) Chris Elmore London and Westminster) (Lab) (Con) Scott Benton (Blackpool Stuart Andrew Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con) Stuart Andrew South) (Con) Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green Chris Elmore Sir Paul Beresford (Mole Stuart Andrew and Bow) (Lab) Valley) (Con) Tahir Ali (Birmingham, Hall Chris Elmore Jake Berry (Rossendale and Stuart Andrew Green) (Lab) Darwen) (Con) Lucy Allan (Telford) (Con) Stuart Andrew Clive Betts (Sheffield South Chris Elmore East) (Lab) Dr Rosena Allin-Khan Chris Elmore (Tooting) (Lab) Saqib Bhatti (Meriden) (Con) Stuart Andrew Mike Amesbury (Weaver Vale) Chris Elmore Mhairi Black (Paisley and Owen Thompson (Lab) Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Sir David Amess (Southend Stuart Andrew Ian Blackford (Ross, Skye and Owen Thompson West) (Con) Lochaber) (SNP) Fleur Anderson (Putney) Chris Elmore Bob Blackman (Harrow East) Stuart Andrew (Lab) (Con) Lee Anderson (Ashfield) Stuart Andrew Olivia Blake (Sheffield, Chris Elmore (Con) Hallam) (Lab) Stuart Anderson Stuart Andrew Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Chris Elmore (Wolverhampton South West) Central) (Lab) (Con) Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con) Stuart Andrew Caroline Ansell (Eastbourne) Stuart Andrew Peter Bone (Wellingborough) Stuart Andrew (Con) (Con) Tonia Antoniazzi (Gower) Chris Elmore Steven Bonnar (Coatbridge, Owen Thompson (Lab) Chryston and Bellshill) (SNP) Edward Argar (Charnwood) Stuart Andrew Andrew Bowie (West Stuart Andrew (Con) Aberdeenshire and Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester Chris Elmore Kincardine) (Con) South) (Lab) Tracy Brabin (Batley and Chris Elmore Sarah Atherton (Wrexham) Stuart Andrew Spen) (Lab/Co-op) (Con) Ben Bradley (Mansfield) Stuart Andrew Victoria Atkins (Louth and Stuart Andrew (Con) Horncastle) (Con) Karen Bradley (Staffordshire Stuart Andrew Gareth Bacon (Orpington) Stuart Andrew Moorlands) (Con) (Con) Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab) Chris Elmore Mr Richard Bacon (South Stuart Andrew Suella Braverman (Fareham) Stuart Andrew Norfolk) (Con) (Con) Kemi Badenoch (Saffron Stuart Andrew Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) Chris Elmore Walden) (Con) (Lab) Shaun Bailey (West Bromwich Stuart Andrew Jack Brereton (Stoke-on-Trent Stuart Andrew West) (Con) South) (Con) Siobhan Baillie (Stroud) Stuart Andrew Andrew Bridgen (North West Stuart Andrew (Con) Leicestershire) (Con) Duncan Baker (North Stuart Andrew Paul Bristow (Peterborough) Stuart Andrew Norfolk) (Con) (Con) 479 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote28 APRIL 2021 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 480

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Sara Britcliffe (Hyndburn) Stuart Andrew Douglas Chapman Owen Thompson (Con) (Dunfermline and West Fife) Deidre Brock (Edinburgh Owen Thompson (SNP) North and Leith) (SNP) Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh Owen Thompson James Brokenshire (Old Stuart Andrew South West) (SNP) Bexley and Sidcup) (Con) Rehman Chishti (Gillingham Stuart Andrew Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Owen Thompson and Rainham) (Con) Loudon) (SNP) Jo Churchill (Bury St Stuart Andrew Ms Lyn Brown (West Ham) Chris Elmore Edmunds) (Con) (Lab) Feryal Clark (Enfield North) Chris Elmore Anthony Browne (South Stuart Andrew (Lab) Cambridgeshire) (Con) Greg Clark (Tunbridge Wells) Stuart Andrew Fiona Bruce (Congleton) Stuart Andrew (Con) (Con) Mr Simon Clarke Stuart Andrew Chris Bryant (Rhondda) Chris Elmore (Middlesbrough South and (Lab) East Cleveland) (Con) Felicity Buchan (Kensington) Stuart Andrew Theo Clarke (Stafford) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) Brendan Clarke-Smith Stuart Andrew Ms Karen Buck (Westminster Chris Elmore (Bassetlaw) (Con) North) (Lab) Chris Clarkson (Heywood Stuart Andrew Robert Buckland (South Stuart Andrew and Middleton) (Con) Swindon) (Con) James Cleverly (Braintree) Stuart Andrew Alex Burghart (Brentwood Stuart Andrew (Con) and Ongar) (Con) Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown Stuart Andrew Richard Burgon (Leeds East) Bell Ribeiro-Addy (The Cotswolds) (Con) (Lab) Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Stuart Andrew Conor Burns (Bournemouth Stuart Andrew Coastal) (Con) West) (Con) (Carshalton Stuart Andrew Dawn Butler (Brent Central) Bell Ribeiro-Addy and Wallington) (Con) (Lab) Damian Collins (Folkestone Stuart Andrew Rob Butler (Aylesbury) (Con) Stuart Andrew and Hythe) (Con) Ian Byrne (Liverpool, West Bell Ribeiro-Addy Daisy Cooper (St Albans) Wendy Chamberlain Derby) (Lab) (LD) (Birmingham, Chris Elmore Rosie Cooper (West Chris Elmore Hodge Hill) (Lab) Lancashire) (Lab) Ruth Cadbury (Brentford and Chris Elmore (Normanton, Chris Elmore Isleworth) (Lab) Pontefract and Castleford) (Lab) Alun Cairns (Vale of Stuart Andrew Glamorgan) (Con) Jeremy Corbyn (Islington Bell Ribeiro-Addy North) (Ind) Amy Callaghan (East Owen Thompson Dunbartonshire) (SNP) Alberto Costa (South Stuart Andrew Leicestershire) (Con) Dr Lisa Cameron (East Owen Thompson Kilbride, Strathaven and Robert Courts (Witney) (Con) Stuart Andrew Lesmahagow) (SNP) Claire Coutinho (East Surrey) Stuart Andrew Sir Alan Campbell Chris Elmore (Con) (Tynemouth) (Con) Ronnie Cowan (Inverclyde) Owen Thompson Mr Gregory Campbell (East Jim Shannon (SNP) Londonderry) (DUP) Sir Geoffrey Cox (Torridge Stuart Andrew Dan Carden (Liverpool, Chris Elmore and West Devon) (Con) Walton) (Lab) Neil Coyle (Bermondsey and Chris Elmore Mr Alistair Carmichael (rt. Wendy Chamberlain Old Southwark) (Lab) hon.) (Orkney and Shetland) Stephen Crabb (Preseli Stuart Andrew (LD) Pembrokeshire) (Con) Andy Carter (Warrington Stuart Andrew Angela Crawley (Lanark and Owen Thompson South) (Con) Hamilton East) (SNP) James Cartlidge (South Stuart Andrew Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) Chris Elmore Suffolk) (Con) (Lab) Sir William Cash (Stone) Stuart Andrew Virginia Crosbie (Ynys Môn) Stuart Andrew (Con) (Con) (Penistone and Stuart Andrew Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Stuart Andrew Stocksbridge) (Con) Aylesford) (Con) Alex Chalk (Cheltenham) Stuart Andrew Jon Cruddas (Dagenham and Chris Elmore (Con) Rainham) (Lab) Sarah Champion (Rotherham) Chris Elmore John Cryer (Leyton and Chris Elmore (Lab) Wanstead) (Lab) 481 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote28 APRIL 2021 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 482

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Judith Cummins (Bradford Chris Elmore Richard Drax (South Dorset) Stuart Andrew South) (Lab) (Con) Alex Cunningham (Stockton Chris Elmore Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Chris Elmore North) (Lab) Erdington) (Lab) Janet Daby (Lewisham East) Chris Elmore Mrs Flick Drummond (Meon Stuart Andrew (Lab) Valley) (Con) James Daly (Bury North) Stuart Andrew James Duddridge (Rochford Stuart Andrew (Con) and Southend East) (Con) Ed Davey (Kingston and Wendy Chamberlain Rosie Duffield (Canterbury) Chris Elmore Surbiton) (LD) (Lab) Wayne David (Caerphilly) Chris Elmore Sir Iain Duncan Smith Stuart Andrew (Lab) (Chingford and Woodford David T. C. Davies Stuart Andrew Green) (Con) (Monmouth) (Con) Philip Dunne (Ludlow) (Con) Stuart Andrew Gareth Davies (Grantham Stuart Andrew Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) Chris Elmore and Stamford) (Con) (Lab) Geraint Davies (Swansea Chris Elmore Maria Eagle (Garston and Chris Elmore West) (Lab/Co-op) Halewood) (Lab) Dr James Davies (Vale of Stuart Andrew Colum Eastwood (Foyle) Ben Lake Clwyd) (Con) (SDLP) Mims Davies (Mid Sussex) Stuart Andrew (Con) (Dewsbury) Stuart Andrew (Con) Alex Davies-Jones Chris Elmore (Pontypridd) (Lab) Jonathan Edwards Stuart Andrew (Carmarthen East and (Shipley) (Con) Stuart Andrew Dinefwr) (Ind) Mr David Davis (Haltemprice Stuart Andrew Ruth Edwards (Rushcliffe) Stuart Andrew and Howden) (Con) (Con) Dehenna Davison (Bishop Stuart Andrew Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab) Chris Elmore Auckland) (Con) Julie Elliott (Sunderland Chris Elmore Martyn Day (Linlithgow and Owen Thompson Central) (Lab) East Falkirk) (SNP) Thangam Debbonaire (Bristol Chris Elmore Michael Ellis (Northampton Stuart Andrew West) (Lab) North) (Con) Marsha De Cordova Bell Ribeiro-Addy Mr Tobias Ellwood Stuart Andrew (Battersea) (Bournemouth East) (Con) Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi Chris Elmore Mrs Natalie Elphicke (Dover) Stuart Andrew (Slough) (Lab) (Con) Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) Stuart Andrew Florence Eshalomi (Vauxhall) Chris Elmore (Con) (Lab/Co-op) Miss Sarah Dines (Derbyshire Stuart Andrew Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) Chris Elmore Dales) (Con) (Lab) Mr Jonathan Djanogly Stuart Andrew George Eustice (Camborne Stuart Andrew (Huntingdon) (Con) and Redruth) (Con) Leo Docherty (Aldershot) Stuart Andrew Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/ Chris Elmore (Con) Co-op) Martin Docherty-Hughes Owen Thompson Dr Luke Evans (Bosworth) Stuart Andrew (West Dunbartonshire) (SNP) (Con) Anneliese Dodds (Oxford Chris Elmore Sir David Evennett Stuart Andrew East) (Lab/Co-op) (Bexleyheath and Crayford) Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson Jim Shannon (Con) (Lagan Valley) (DUP) Ben Everitt (Milton Keynes Stuart Andrew Michelle Donelan Stuart Andrew North) (Con) (Chippenham) (Con) (Lichfield) Stuart Andrew Dave Doogan (Angus) (SNP) Owen Thompson (Con) Allan Dorans (Ayr, Carrick Owen Thompson Laura Farris (Newbury) (Con) Stuart Andrew and Cumnock) (SNP) Tim Farron (Westmorland Wendy Chamberlain Ms Nadine Dorries (Mid Stuart Andrew and Lonsdale) (LD) Bedfordshire) (Con) Stephen Farry (North Down) Wendy Chamberlain Steve Double (St Austell and Stuart Andrew (Alliance) Newquay) (Con) Simon Fell (Barrow and Stuart Andrew Stephen Doughty (Cardiff Chris Elmore Furness) (Con) South and Penarth) (Lab) Marion Fellows (Motherwell Owen Thompson Peter Dowd (Bootle) (Lab) Chris Elmore and Wishaw) (SNP) Oliver Dowden (Hertsmere) Stuart Andrew Margaret Ferrier (Rutherglen Stuart Andrew (Con) and Hamilton West) (Ind) 483 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote28 APRIL 2021 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 484

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Katherine Fletcher (South Stuart Andrew Mrs Helen Grant (Maidstone Stuart Andrew Ribble) (Con) and The Weald) (Con) Mark Fletcher (Bolsover) Stuart Andrew Peter Grant (Glenrothes) Owen Thompson (Con) (SNP) Nick Fletcher (Don Valley) Stuart Andrew James Gray (North Wiltshire) Stuart Andrew (Con) (Con) Stephen Flynn (Aberdeen Owen Thompson Chris Grayling (Epsom and Stuart Andrew South) (SNP) Ewell) (Con) Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) Stuart Andrew Damian Green (Ashford) Stuart Andrew (Con) (Con) Kevin Foster (Torbay) (Con) Stuart Andrew Kate Green (Stretford and Chris Elmore Yvonne Fovargue Chris Elmore Urmston) (Lab) (Makerfield) (Lab) Lilian Greenwood Chris Elmore Dr Liam Fox (North Stuart Andrew (Nottingham South) (Lab) Somerset) (Con) Margaret Greenwood (Wirral Chris Elmore Vicky Foxcroft (Lewisham, Chris Elmore West) (Lab) Deptford) (Lab) Andrew Griffith (Arundel and Stuart Andrew Mary Kelly Foy (City of Bell Ribeiro-Addy South Downs) (Con) Durham) (Lab) Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab) Chris Elmore Mr (Rayleigh Stuart Andrew and Wickford) (Con) Kate Griffiths (Burton) (Con) Stuart Andrew Lucy Frazer (South East Stuart Andrew James Grundy (Leigh) (Con) Stuart Andrew Cambridgeshire) (Con) Jonathan Gullis (Stoke-on- Stuart Andrew George Freeman (Mid Stuart Andrew Trent North) (Con) Norfolk) (Con) Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Chris Elmore Mike Freer (Finchley and Stuart Andrew Reddish) (Lab) Golders Green) (Con) Louise Haigh (Sheffield, Chris Elmore Richard Fuller (North East Stuart Andrew Heeley) (Lab) Bedfordshire) (Con) Robert Halfon (Harlow) Stuart Andrew Marcus Fysh (Yeovil) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) Gill Furniss (Sheffield, Chris Elmore Luke Hall (Thornbury and Stuart Andrew Brightside and Hillsborough) Yate) (Con) (Lab) Fabian Hamilton (Leeds Chris Elmore Sir Roger Gale (North Stuart Andrew North East) (Lab) Thanet) (Con) Stephen Hammond Stuart Andrew Barry Gardiner (Brent North) Chris Elmore (Wimbledon) (Con) (Lab) Matt Hancock (West Suffolk) Stuart Andrew Mark Garnier (Wyre Forest) Stuart Andrew (Con) (Con) Greg Hands (Chelsea and Stuart Andrew Ms Nusrat Ghani (Wealden) Stuart Andrew Fulham) (Con) (Con) Claire Hanna (Belfast South) Ben Lake Nick Gibb (Bognor Regis and Stuart Andrew (SDLP) Littlehampton) (Con) Emma Hardy (Kingston upon Chris Elmore Patricia Gibson (North Owen Thompson Hull West and Hessle) (Lab) Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP) Ms Harriet Harman Chris Elmore Peter Gibson (Darlington) Stuart Andrew (Camberwell and Peckham) (Con) (Lab) Jo Gideon (Stoke-on-Trent Stuart Andrew Mark Harper (Forest of Stuart Andrew Central) (Con) Dean) (Con) Preet Kaur Gill (Birmingham, Chris Elmore Carolyn Harris (Swansea Chris Elmore Edgbaston) (Lab/Co-op) East) (Lab) Paul Girvan (South Antrim) Jim Shannon Trudy Harrison (Copeland) Stuart Andrew (DUP) (Con) John Glen (Salisbury) (Con) Stuart Andrew Sally-Ann Hart (Hastings and Stuart Andrew Mary Glindon (North Chris Elmore Rye) (Con) Tyneside) (Lab) Simon Hart (Carmarthen Stuart Andrew Mr Robert Goodwill Stuart Andrew West and South (Scarborough and Whitby) Pembrokeshire) (Con) (Con) Helen Hayes (Dulwich and Chris Elmore Michael Gove (Surrey Heath) Stuart Andrew West Norwood) (Lab) (Con) Sir John Hayes (South Stuart Andrew Patrick Grady (Glasgow Owen Thompson Holland and The Deepings) North) (SNP) (Con) Richard Graham (Gloucester) Stuart Andrew Sir Oliver Heald (North East Stuart Andrew (Con) Hertfordshire) (Con) 485 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote28 APRIL 2021 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 486

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John Healey (Wentworth and Chris Elmore Sajid Javid (Bromsgrove) Stuart Andrew Dearne) (Lab) (Con) James Heappey (Wells) (Con) Stuart Andrew Mr Ranil Jayawardena (North Stuart Andrew Chris Heaton-Harris Stuart Andrew East Hampshire) (Con) (Daventry) (Con) Sir Bernard Jenkin (Harwich Stuart Andrew Gordon Henderson Stuart Andrew and North Essex) (Con) (Sittingbourne and Sheppey) Mark Jenkinson (Workington) Stuart Andrew (Con) (Con) Sir Mark Hendrick (Preston) Chris Elmore Andrea Jenkyns (Morley and Stuart Andrew (Lab/Co-op) Outwood) (Con) Drew Hendry (Inverness, Owen Thompson Robert Jenrick (Newark) Stuart Andrew Nairn, Badenoch and (Con) Strathspey) (SNP) Boris Johnson (Uxbridge and Stuart Andrew Darren Henry (Broxtowe) Stuart Andrew South Ruislip) (Con) (Con) Dr Caroline Johnson Stuart Andrew Damian Hinds (East Stuart Andrew (Sleaford and North Hampshire) (Con) Hykeham) (Con) Simon Hoare (North Dorset) Stuart Andrew Dame Diana Johnson Chris Elmore (Con) (Kingston upon Hull North) Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD) Wendy Chamberlain (Lab) Dame Margaret Hodge Chris Elmore Gareth Johnson (Dartford) Stuart Andrew (Barking) (Lab) (Con) Mrs Sharon Hodgson Chris Elmore Kim Johnson (Liverpool, Chris Elmore (Washington and Sunderland Riverside) (Lab) West) (Lab) David Johnston (Wantage) Stuart Andrew Mr Richard Holden (North Stuart Andrew (Con) West Durham) (Con) Darren Jones (Bristol North Chris Elmore Kate Hollern (Blackburn) Chris Elmore West) (Lab) (Lab) Mr David Jones (Clwyd West) Stuart Andrew (Thirsk and Stuart Andrew (Con) Malton) (Con) Adam Holloway (Gravesham) Stuart Andrew Fay Jones (Brecon and Stuart Andrew (Con) Radnorshire) (Con) Paul Holmes (Eastleigh) Stuart Andrew Gerald Jones (Merthyr Tydfil Chris Elmore (Con) and Rhymney) (Lab) Rachel Hopkins (Luton Chris Elmore Mr Kevan Jones (North Chris Elmore South) (Lab) Durham) (Lab) Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) Owen Thompson Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) Stuart Andrew (SNP) (Con) Sir George Howarth Chris Elmore Ruth Jones (Newport West) Chris Elmore (Knowsley) (Lab) (Lab) John Howell (Henley) (Con) Stuart Andrew Sarah Jones (Croydon Chris Elmore Central) (Lab) Paul Howell (Sedgefield) Stuart Andrew (Con) Simon Jupp (East Devon) Stuart Andrew (Con) Nigel Huddleston (Mid Stuart Andrew Worcestershire) (Con) Mike Kane (Wythenshawe Chris Elmore and Sale East) (Lab) Dr Neil Hudson (Penrith and Stuart Andrew The Border) (Con) Daniel Kawczynski Stuart Andrew Eddie Hughes (Walsall North) Stuart Andrew (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con) (Con) Jane Hunt (Loughborough) Stuart Andrew Alicia Kearns (Rutland and Stuart Andrew (Con) Melton) (Con) Jeremy Hunt (South West Stuart Andrew Gillian Keegan (Chichester) Stuart Andrew Surrey) (Con) (Con) Tom Hunt (Ipswich) (Con) Stuart Andrew Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Chris Elmore Eccles South) (Lab) Rupa Huq (Ealing Central Chris Elmore and Acton) (Lab) Liz Kendall (Leicester West) Chris Elmore (Lab) Imran Hussain (Bradford Bell Ribeiro-Addy East) (Lab) Afzal Khan (Manchester, Chris Elmore Mr Alister Jack (Dumfries Stuart Andrew Gorton) (Lab) and Galloway) (Con) Stephen Kinnock (Aberavon) Chris Elmore Christine Jardine (Edinburgh Wendy Chamberlain (Lab) West) (LD) Sir (East Stuart Andrew Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) Chris Elmore Yorkshire) (Con) (Lab) Julian Knight () (Con) Stuart Andrew 487 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote28 APRIL 2021 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 488

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Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) Jim Shannon Jeremy Wright (Kenilworth Stuart Andrew (DUP) and Southam) (Con) Mohammad Yasin (Bedford) Chris Elmore Beth Winter (Cynon Valley) Bell Ribeiro-Addy (Lab) (Lab) Jacob Young (Redcar) (Con) Stuart Andrew Pete Wishart (Perth and Owen Thompson Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford- Stuart Andrew North Perthshire) (SNP) on-Avon) (Con) Daniel Zeichner (Cambridge) Chris Elmore Mike Wood (Dudley South) Stuart Andrew (Lab) (Con) 113WH 28 APRIL 2021 GKN Automotive Plant: Birmingham 114WH

and British culture. Today, it is a major supplier of drive Westminster Hall shafts and prop shafts to the automotive industry,supplying almost every car manufacturer in the UK. Wednesday 28 April 2021 In 2018, GKN was subject to a hostile takeover by Melrose Industries, a City firm with a reputation for buying companies, breaking them up and selling them [DAME ANGELA EAGLE in the Chair] on. For example, in July 2008, Melrose acquired the FKI group, of which manufacturing firm Brush is part. GKN Automotive Plant: Birmingham Melrose began selling off parts of the group in 2009 and sold off about 15 businesses between 2009 and Virtual participation in proceedings commenced (Order, 2014. It implemented severe job cuts at the Brush plant 25 February). in Loughborough, taking the number of employees [NB: [V] denotes a Member participating virtually.] from 1,200 down to 600, with a further 270 redundancies in 2018, and, in the process, moving production overseas 9.25 am and hollowing out a once great company. Today, global field service engineers still employed by Brush are balloting Dame Angela Eagle (in the Chair): I remind hon. against fire and rehire pay cuts of up to £15,000. Members that there have been some changes to normal practice in order to support the new hybrid arrangements In 2018, that chequered past mobilised the GKN in Westminster Hall. Timings of debates have been workers, their union, Unite, and a cross-party group of amended to allow technical arrangements to be made MPs—I stress that it was a cross-party group—in opposition for the next debate. There will be suspensions between to the takeover to demand assurances from Melrose debates, which is slightly unusual. I remind Members that there would be no repeat of that experience if it participating physically and virtually that they must acquired GKN. In return, Melrose promised that it was arrive for the start of a debate in Westminster Hall and “ambitious for GKN’s future” and wished to make it are expected to remain for the entire debate. I must “an engineering and manufacturing powerhouse…Weare British remind Members participating virtually that they are and work in the national interest.” visible at all times, both to one another and to us in the Following a hard-fought campaign, Melrose then Boothroyd Room; that is something to be aware of won the shareholder vote by 52% to 48%, with the when you are sitting in front of your screen. If Members support of the hedge funds being critical as they sold attending virtually have any technical problems, they GKN short. In the years since the takeover there have should email the Westminster Hall Clerks’ email address. been some job losses at GKN Chester Road. However, Members attending physically should clean their spaces the workers’ union, Unite, had been in discussions with before they use them and before they leave the room; the company about investment in the plant, and GKN you will see that there are hand wipes in front of you. I Chester Road appeared in good stead, ending furlough remind Members that Mr Speaker has stated that masks in July last year. It was producing, and then out of the should be worn in Westminster Hall. blue in February this year the closure of the Chester Road plant was announced by GKN with the loss of 9.26 am 519 jobs, and twice that number in the supply chain. It is now clear—the company has acknowledged this—that Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab): I beg it had been planning the closure of the site for two to move, years, with no consultation whatever with the workers. That this House has considered the proposed closure of GKN Its intention now is to export production and jobs from Automotive plant in Birmingham. Birmingham to Poland and France. The European sites It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, will be the beneficiaries of the loss of 519 well-paid, Dame Angela. I declare an interest as, for 47 years, a skilled jobs in an area with twice the national unemployment member of, first, the Transport and General Workers rate. I often say about Erdington, “It may be rich in Union and then Unite, and ultimately its deputy general talent, but it is one of the poorest constituencies in the secretary. country.” Manufacturing matters to the success of the UK. The consequences of closure will be grave, not least Manufacturing, the genius of science and the national the human cost. I visited the site again two weeks ago. health service have seen more than 30 million people One worker in his late 20s has three kids, including two vaccinated against covid. Manufacturing will be key to young children. His partner stays at home to raise their recovery. Manufacturing—green manufacturing—is key children and he is the only breadwinner in the family. to combating climate change. Manufacturing getting The kids go to school locally. Their whole family life is it right is key to the recovery of Brexit Britain. And based in Erdington. What will his young family do if manufacturing is key to levelling up. the plant shuts? No other well-paid jobs in the area can Automotive is the jewel in the crown of British replace his current job. Another worker in his mid-20s is manufacturing, and key companies in the automotive a single parent with two young kids. His father and supply chain exemplify that excellence. GKN is one of grandfather worked at the GKN plant, with 60 to 70 them. GKN has a remarkable history. The company years’ experience working for GKN in the family. What goes back over 262 years. It made the cannonballs for will he do if the plant shuts? the battle of Waterloo and built Spitfires for the battle There are also wider consequences for the British of Britain. The Chester Road plant has been operational automotive industry. What happens to GKN in the for more than 50 years. Historically, it made parts for coming months will be a litmus paper test for the the original Mini Cooper. Throughout its history, GKN Government’s commitment to stand up for the industry. has been central to iconic moments in British history On supply chain consequences, GKN supplies nearly 115WH GKN Automotive Plant: Birmingham28 APRIL 2021 GKN Automotive Plant: Birmingham 116WH

[Jack Dromey] iron business case for the future of the Chester Road site and they now rightly expect the company to respond every major car manufacturer in Britain with drive in good faith. shafts and prop shafts. It is the only firm in Britain with Part of their plan would make the Chester Road the capability to fulfil the orders that it does. What will plant fit for the future of the electrification process in be the cost to British automotive of losing a British automotive, so that it can play its part in the transition supplier to Europe, particularly as we emerge from the to electric vehicles, by also manufacturing what are European Union? called electric drive units. The chief executive of Melrose, On building up supply chain resilience, there is now a Simon Peckham, made a commitment before the Business, welcome and major debate raging about supply chain Energy and Industrial Strategy Committee in February resilience and certainty. The continuity of supply chains to assess such alternatives to closure during the consultation during periods of disruption are vital, as the past 12 months with the workers. Melrose must now honour that have shown. It is crucial for the resilience and commitment. In parallel, together with the workers’ competitiveness of British automotive over its international union, Unite, I have had constructive discussions with rivals that we have British-made parts supplying British the Secretary of State and the Minister responsible, car plants. At a time when the debate is raging about Lord Grimstone. It is important that the Government onshoring jobs and production back to the UK, here we now match words with action and show their resolve to have a company that is offshoring. What will be the protect GKN and its workers. All parties must play consequences for British automotive if we lose the their part in finding alternatives to closure, and all domestic production capacity of such vital components? options must be considered to save the 519 jobs, and for Do we really want to move from a just-in-time supply the continued prosperity of British automotive, which chain of a matter of hours to a supply chain four and is so vital to the economy of the west midlands. five days long, stretching all the way to Poland? From what I have outlined today it is clear beyond doubt that the moral argument is on the side of the Closure is also a threat to the Government’s global workers at GKN, but I am the first to recognise that Britain agenda. Part of the Government’s agenda is ultimately what matters to save GKN Chester Road is that, post-Brexit, the UK must look to international the business argument. That is why it is so important markets beyond Europe. The Government have sought that Melrose should fulfil its commitment to consider trade deals with the likes of Japan and Australia. Aside Unite’s alternative business case, and that the Government from the merits or demerits of such deals, to benefit should also act to ensure that that happens, playing from such free trade agreements UK carmakers such as their part to the full at the next stages. The Government Jaguar Land Rover need enough local content in their are not a powerless bystander in the situation. When the cars to qualify to avoid paying tariffs. A driveline or national interest is threatened in this way, by the harm e-axle equates to 15% of an electric vehicle, a significant that the loss of GKN would inflict on British automotive, part of their value. If we lose GKN’s British-made it is incumbent on the Government to act swiftly and parts, car makers such as JLR could face significant decisively. It would be churlish not to acknowledge that tariffs on the cars they export to international markets. the early discussions have been positive, and what the That poses grave risks to the international competitiveness Government do at the next stages will be crucial. of the industry. What signal does that send about Britain I want to end on a positive note, from my years in the as a place to do business? We run the serious risk of trade union movement. People develop an instinct about iconic British cars potentially not being considered when battles can be won or lost, and I am steadfast in British-made, because of the lack of local content in my belief that, with good faith on all sides, disaster for them. Surely that cannot be the global Britain that the 519 workers in Erdington can be avoided. I pay tribute Government advocate. to their strength and courage. I can guarantee that they, There is a potential solution. We must now act to the workers, will do their utmost to save the plant from protect the workers, British manufacturing and the closure. They are the living embodiment of all that is national interest. The consultation between GKN and great about this country and British manufacturing. We the workforce is ongoing. I pay tribute to the union can walk around the floor, as I have many times, and see convener at the plant, Frank Duffy, and his shop stewards generation after generation—for 10, 15, 20, 30 or 40 years and members, for the admirable leadership that they and more—serving this nation well. They are truly the have shown throughout what has been a difficult period best of Britain and the best of British manufacturing. It for them. They have my unending support and solidarity. now falls on Melrose and the Government to match their courage to save thousands of British jobs and to During the consultation process Melrose’s case for act now to secure the future of the great GKN Automotive closure has crumbled under the weight of scrutiny from plant on Chester Road, Birmingham. the union. Despite Melrose’s claims, the Chester Road site is not unprofitable, but its accounts have been 9.40 am unduly impacted by transfer pricing within the business, Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con) [V]: It is a pleasure to so that other plants appear more profitable. The estimated follow the hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington savings from closure have also been shown to be hugely (Jack Dromey) speaking up for a manufacturing facility inflated. It is now clear that modest investment in the in his constituency. He and I have a great deal in plant would allow it to be more productive than GKN’s common. Weare joint chairs of the all-party parliamentary other European plants. It already is more productive manufacturing group and we both want to see a strong than a number of them. Alternatives to closure must future for manufacturing in the UK. I am, like him, an therefore now be assessed in good faith by Melrose. MP in the west midlands, where automotive manufacture Unite, Frank, and Steve Turner the assistant general and the components used in automotive are a key part secretary have all worked tirelessly to develop a cast of our local economy. 117WH GKN Automotive Plant: Birmingham28 APRIL 2021 GKN Automotive Plant: Birmingham 118WH

I am also a member of the Business, Energy and Additionally, he said: Industrial Strategy Committee and was a member of it “Let me turn to Erdington, because it is a difficult position. It in the last Parliament when Melrose gave evidence on is one of the difficult things. We have complied with the spirit and 6 March 2018 ahead of its acquisition of GKN. As the word of every undertaking we gave, but we also said we would the hon. Member said, Melrose also gave evidence to make difficult decisions from time to time. Unfortunately, Erdington the Committee on 23 February this year. I support his is one of those.” interest in supporting manufacturing in the UK, but as Ahead of that session, Melrose sent its “Briefing a former business owner I believe there must be occasions note: Melrose meeting its commitments”. That set out when we, Government and broader society should respect legally binding undertakings for five years to ensure the ability of business owners and managers to take that Melrose remained headquartered and listed in the the action they consider necessary—often difficult UK, that the board would have a majority of UK and challenging decisions—in the best interests of their residents, and that GKN Aerospace and Driveline company, and accept that those decisions are being businesses would retain the same rights to the GKN taken for the right reasons. trademarks. Significantly, rightly or wrongly, there were When GKN came before the Select Committee ahead no undertakings in relation to jobs, employment or sites of Melrose’s acquisition, it is fair to say that there was a of any of the GKN businesses. pretty strong challenge by my colleagues on Melrose’splans It is important to consider the business environment for the future of GKN. There were questions to the three since that acquisition took place. In the past 18 months, founders of Melrose amid concern that Melrose was businesses have had to face the pandemic and the attempting to buy the company on the cheap and then uncertainty of Brexit. There was a huge fall in car sales: sell off individual bits. In that session, Melrose set the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders reported out its reason for the acquisition, which was principally 2020 sales were down 30% ,with showrooms shut for to improve a business that in recent years had been only several months. The biggest decline was in diesel cars, poorly run. As a member of the Committee, I was able to but petrol reduced, too, due to a fast growing switch to ask the witnesses what their plans were for the long term electric. That sector is not currently served by products and what reassurance they could give that they would not from the Erdington factory. That must have played a simply sell it off. Simon Peckham, the chief executive, said: part in Melrose’s decision to wind down the factory “We say we have a three to five-year strapline, and we have over the coming 18 months. always said that.” I have listened carefully and know very well the case He added: made by the hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington. “We are quite happy to hold businesses for longer. We are quite I am keen to see a strong future for UK manufacturing. happy to go back to our shareholders if necessary and say, ‘This is I share his concern about the loss of the facility and the the wrong time to do something now. We will keep this business.’” impact on his constituents. However,to be fair to Melrose, So there is evidence that where the business is right, it made its position pretty clear on acquisition. That they will keep it. I therefore asked: was accepted by GKN’s shareholders. The challenging “Could we be confident that in five or 10 years’ time the business environment has brought forward a difficult structure…would be broadly as it is today?” decision. I believe the company must be able to take the Simon Peckham was straight. He said: action it deems to be in its best interests, while honouring “No. We have said, between years 4 and 5, we will sit down and the commitments it has made. work out what the right thing to do is. I cannot give you a I hope that the phased approach that Melrose proposes commitment about 10 years’ time, but we have set out very clearly over the 18-month period will minimise any impact on in our offer document exactly what we mean.” those affected individually, and the broader area in I also asked Mr Peckham about how the acquisition Birmingham. I have heard from the hon. Gentleman of GKN was in line with the Government’s industrial some of the alternatives proposed for the facility, and I strategy. Mr Peckham replied: hope that they might provide the basis for retention of “At the end of the day, we want to invest in R&D. We want to some activity there, perhaps under the Melrose ownership develop these businesses. We want to grow them. We want to or the ownership of others. I very much look forward to improve them. We want to take a GKN business that we think is hearing from the Minister what steps she may be able currently underperforming.” to take to assist in that regard. He said that Melrose had access to the ability to raise finance 9.47 am “to build GKN, if it is the right thing to do”. Mick Whitley (Birkenhead) (Lab) [V]: It is a pleasure He added: to serve under your chairmanship, Dame Angela. I “I accept we are not saying we are going to hold these assets for congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, ever. We are not sitting in front of you misleading you.” Erdington (Jack Dromey) on securing this debate. I It is therefore clear that Melrose intended to acquire the thank him for all he has done to secure the long-term business, have a look at it and see what it thought sustainability of the GKN Birmingham plant and to needed to be done. support the 519 workers whose livelihoods are now Mr Peckham appeared before the Committee on under threat. 23 February this year—three years into its ownership of First, I should declare an interest. For 27 years I the business—for a session that was essentially about worked at the Vauxhall car plant at Ellesmere Port, Brexit, but the opportunity was there for the Chair to before serving as the north-west regional secretary of ask a question about Erdington. Simon Peckham replied: Unite the union, of which I remain a member. “Erdington is one of the difficult decisions that we were presented with. As well as the good stuff we do, when we The automotive sector is truly the jewel in the crown inherited GKN it was basically a troubled business. Your Committee of British manufacturing. It is deeply distressing to see spent quite a long time talking to them about that and the profit its future thrown into jeopardy as a result of the pandemic, warning they did at the time. As a business, it needed improvement.” Brexit and a neglectful Government whose pledges to 119WH GKN Automotive Plant: Birmingham28 APRIL 2021 GKN Automotive Plant: Birmingham 120WH

[Mick Whitley] procedures of the House, we do not curse and use foul language, but what is happening to the loyal workforce level up and build back better are worth less than the at this plant is an outrage. Over 500 jobs—my hon. paper they are written on. We should be very clear: the Friend says 519—many thousands of jobs in the supply closure of the plant is not an inevitability,as shop stewards chain, and more than 50 years of proud history at the of the plant have demonstrated in their two-part alternative site are in the firing line. If this plant is allowed to close, plan. GKN Birmingham remains financially viable. With and I am looking here at the Minister—we do not want the right investment and direction, the plant can soon just warm words but definite actions—it will be a nail be returned to profitability by improving productivity in the coffin of UK manufacturing. We look to the and transitioning towards the production of parts that Government for a response and a reaction. will be essential if the UK is to become a world leader in the electric vehicle revolution. The proposals are a GKN is a living, breathing symbol of a great British testament to the expertise and imagination of workers company.It has been building critical equipment, including on the shop floor, whose views are so often disregarded for the defence of the realm, for over 260 years. My by management, but deserve serious consideration. hon. Friend mentioned that it was involved in building As my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Spitfires, and cannon balls that were used by the British Erdington said, the alternative of shuttering the plant artillery at Waterloo. Surely that is a history worth doors for good would devastate his constituency, which, defending and a future worth saving. like mine, already suffers some of the highest levels of I express solidarity with Steve Turner, assistant general deprivation and joblessness in the country. secretary of Unite, who has been involved in plans to The consequences of the plant’s closure would also save jobs at the plant and Frank Duffy, Unite convener be felt much more widely. The offshoring of a vital part there, and his members, who have fought valiantly and of the automotive supply chain, and a loss of precious continue to fight. Despite company promises to build a jobs, skills and infrastructure, would be a body blow to “British manufacturing powerhouse”, many Members an industry struggling to recover from the worst year in of Parliament, including my hon. Friend and others its history. As a member of the International Trade present, and the trade unions, warned what would Committee, I am acutely aware of how the pandemic happen when Melrose launched its hostile takeover bid dramatically exposed the vulnerabilities of international three years ago. Sadly, despite the comments, made I supply chains. Now, more than ever, we need to invest in am sure in good faith, of the hon. Member for Rugby domestic industry, and build up skills and well-paid (Mark Pawsey), those predictions have proved correct. I jobs at home. That must begin with the Government do not accept the argument that the plant is not viable. investing in the future of Britain’s automotive industry Melrose’sdirectors have been heavily criticised for excessive at GKN Birmingham and Vauxhall’s car plant at bonuses and profits. I will not quote a figure, but it is Ellesmere Port. eye-watering. When it comes to protecting a critical part of the supply chain at GKN, no option should be off the table, It strikes me that there are some parallels with what including part or whole state intervention or nationalisation, has happened with the European super league, where an or any legislative measures that safeguard the plants elite wring out value from an organisation—in this case, from asset-stripping venture capitalists. If the Business GKN. As we have heard, Melrose is already closing one Secretary fails to act now and make the crucial investment factory in Birmingham, and now it wants to throw the needed to allow the transition of plants like GKN and other, on Chester Road, on the scrapheap with the Vauxhall towards the production of electric vehicles intention of stripping it of its assets, because that is and parts, it will not only condemn hundreds of jobs to what asset strippers do: they buy companies cheap, the scrapheap, but fatally undermine the Government’s break them up and sell them off, and they throw away commitments to phasing out diesel and petrol vehicles, what is left. I had some experience of it in the north-east and achieving net zero emissions. many years ago with Helical Bar, a property company The Government face a major test—are they serious that bought up the capital assets that were sold off about levelling up left behind communities such as cheap from Aycliffe and Peterlee Development Corporation, Birmingham, Erdington and Birkenhead, or is their then sold them off, making a huge profit for Michael pledge to deliver a green industrial revolution just another Slade, the chief executive, and walked away without empty Tory promise? In Birkenhead and Wirral, thousands adding any value to the community or to the local of jobs hang in the balance. economy. 9.51 am The more than 500 skilled engineering jobs under Grahame Morris (Easington) (Lab): Thank you for threat at Birmingham are good jobs and part of the accommodating me and allowing me to be here in backbone of British manufacturing, but apparently they person, Dame Angela. I congratulate my good and hon. are not valuable to Melrose, because the company just Friend the Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack wants to throw them away. However, these jobs are Dromey) on securing this debate, which is not just valuable to the workforce themselves—of course they important for Birmingham and the west midlands, but are. They are valuable to the families who the workers is of national significance because of the nature of the support. They are valuable to the communities in the issues. I declare an interest as a long-standing member west midlands where the people live. They are valuable of Unite the union and chair of the Unite group in to the trade union. They are also valuable to the economy, Parliament. to us here in this room; well, I hope they are. The My hon. Friend has described what Melrose is doing question I put to the Minister is: if they are valuable, to the GKN automotive factory in Birmingham. Frankly, what are Ministers going to do to save them? What are it is an absolute disgrace. Out of deference to the they going to do to save British manufacturing, especially 121WH GKN Automotive Plant: Birmingham28 APRIL 2021 GKN Automotive Plant: Birmingham 122WH the automotive sector, as we shift rapidly to electric The question is: do the Government accept that vehicles? I look forward to the Minister’s comments electrification will not be an opportunity for those later in the debate. highly skilled engineers, who make parts for top brands, The key issue with the GKN plant in Birmingham is including Jaguar Land Rover, Toyota, and Nissan in my whether it is viable, as my hon. Friend the Member for part of the country? Are Ministers, who promised a Birmingham, Erdington touched on. Unite the union British manufacturing powerhouse, prepared to let Melrose has worked through the figures and looked at the numbers throw those jobs on the scrapheap? Are they giving up with independent experts that have been recognised by on those skilled workers at a time when they need the company. They looked at whether it is viable, and at support most of all? I hope the Minister will let us know Melrose’s claim that, in fact, the plant has been losing when she responds to the debate, because we will not money for several years. According to the information I give up on them, and neither will their union. We will have seen, this seems to be a case of what we would call fight all the way, because we are fighting for the future creative accounting. It is called transfer pricing, where of British manufacturing. It is a fight that we are large companies that operate over several sites, often determined to win, even if it takes strikes, protests and based in different countries, pretend the different sites other ways to disrupt Melrose’s disgraceful plans. The are buying and selling from each other while building a battle for the Birmingham plant has only just begun. product. In that way, they can say that some sites are It would be useful if the Minister let us know which theoretically profitable while others are loss-making, side she is on. Is she on the side of the skilled, productive depending on what prices the company chooses to workers, or that of the short-term, greedy bosses? I charge itself or elements of itself. imagine the whole country would like to know the answer, especially as we go into the local elections in It seems to me that that is a fiction, and it is often May. I hope the Minister will tell us. used to reduce the tax paid in some countries because the profits made in another are higher. In reality, all the Dame Angela Eagle (in the Chair): Before calling sites contribute to the value of the product made, and Rachel Hopkins, I remind Members who are physically that is certainly the case with GKN in Birmingham. present to put their masks on when they sit down. Melrose bosses think they can just get the work done cheaper in Poland and France, an appalling attitude for a company that promised the Business, Energy and 10.2 am Industrial Strategy Committee only a short time ago to Rachel Hopkins (Luton South) (Lab) [V]: It is a build a British manufacturing powerhouse. pleasure to serve under your chairship, Dame Angela. I Unite has developed an alternative plan with the congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, independent experts, and they make it clear that it is Erdington (Jack Dromey) on securing this extremely possible not only to make a profit on the site but to important debate. I am a Unite trade union member, increase capacity by 50% and deliver annual savings of and all of us in the Labour and trade union movement up to £8 million for GKN. Most importantly, this will fully understand, particularly on International Workers’ save those valuable jobs and create more jobs for the Memorial Day, that an injury to one is an injury to all. future, but it seems that Melrose is only interested in That is why I am speaking in this debate as the Member short-term profit. We need the Government to make of Parliament for Luton South, a constituency in my Melrose see that this is an offer it cannot refuse. That home town of Luton that has a long history of car and will mean support for the rapid shift to electric vehicles, van manufacturing at the Vauxhall plant, which provides which the factory is perfectly placed to take advantage skilled jobs. I know how important those jobs are to our of, as my hon. Friend said. local economy and our communities’ livelihoods, so I send my solidarity to the workers at GKN in Erdington, GKN Birmingham Chester Road produces Driveline whose jobs are at risk. components, including side shafts and prop shafts; small, Manufacturing matters, and GKN is a vital strategic specialist components. According to Unite, the e-axle, supplier to our automotive sector. It has the capacity to known as the eDrive, which is an existing GKN technology transition to new products for electric vehicles, as we that was developed at its UK innovation centre, is a key have heard. That green capacity will be essential in the product that can secure the Birmingham site’s long-term future for plants such as Vauxhall in Luton South. future, as well as the UK’scritical manufacturing capability. Since acquiring GKN, Melrose has sought to offshore The demand for that product will only increase as we manufacturing and transfer— move towards full electrification, but Melrose must get serious about supporting its manufacturing base, and Dame Angela Eagle (in the Chair): Order. Rachel, so must the Government. could you hold your microphone a bit closer? That is When the company’s chief executive, Simon Peckham, much easier for us to hear. When it is dangling, you are gave evidence to the Business, Energy and Industrial going very quiet. If you hold it closer to your mouth, Strategy Committee in February, he put the blame that would be fantastic, because we will hear you much squarely on electric vehicles. He claimed that better. “electrification is a threat to jobs as well as an opportunity to grow jobs.” Rachel Hopkins: I am very sorry, Dame Angela. Apologies for that. He also said: Since acquiring GKN, Melrose has sought to offshore “For GKN Automotive as a whole,electrification is an opportunity; manufacturing and transfer successfully won contracts unfortunately, for” for UK work away from Birmingham. We know that it the Birmingham plant “it is not.” We do not accept that. wants to offshore production to Poland and France to The workers do not accept that, and nor does Unite. maximise profit, showing a total disregard for its loyal 123WH GKN Automotive Plant: Birmingham28 APRIL 2021 GKN Automotive Plant: Birmingham 124WH

[Rachel Hopkins] 10.7 am workers and the surrounding community. As my hon. Lucy Powell (Manchester Central) (Lab/Co-op): It is Friend the Member for Birmingham, Erdington said, a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Dame the GKN plant is based in an area where unemployment Angela. I add my congratulations to my hon. Friend the stands at 12.5%, which is significantly higher than the Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey) on national average. The loss of 519 skilled jobs at the securing this extremely important debate on the future plant in the middle of a pandemic would devastate of GKN, a vital employer in his constituency, in a vital the community. industry for the UK economy. He is a really energetic champion for the communities he serves, as I know very The closure of GKN would also have a hugely damaging well first hand, and he gave a passionate and important impact on our domestic automotive supply chain. As speech, which set out perfectly the issues before us we have seen with other forms of manufacturing during today and, crucially, the alternative to closure. We have the pandemic, it is important to have a robust domestic heard some excellent speeches today that also made supply chain. That is increasingly essential for the those points very clearly. I declare that I, too, am a automotive sector, due to the new rules of origin member of Unite the union, which I will be mentioning requirements with regard to tariffs. in my speech today. It is economically illiterate of the Government to allow the closure of GKN in Birmingham and the I want to express my solidarity with the workers at offshoring of production. The loss of GKN—a critically the plant in Erdington and in the supply chain who are important tier 1 supply chain manufacturer—will have at risk of losing their jobs. Yesterday, I met Frank a knock-on impact across our automotive sector. What Duffy, the Unite convener. Like so many others working I and others here find astounding is Melrose’s lack of at the plant, he has decades of service. The announcement discussion with the workers’ trade union, Unite. Unite’s of closure earlier this year came as a devastating blow two-stage plan for the GKN plant, formed through to him and hundreds of families across the region who work with shop stewards and independent experts, outlines have given their lives to GKN over the decades. how productivity can be improved with additional savings, I put on the record my deep and profound concern followed by a plan to produce eDrive components for about the decision by Melrose; I hope very much that it electric vehicles. Estimates suggest that would save more will think again. The decision flies in the face of assurances than Melrose’s proposal to close the plant in Erdington, Melrose gave to the House via the BEIS Committee as independent experts believe Melrose has underestimated only three years ago. I heard what the hon. Member for the cost of relocation. Rugby (Mark Pawsey) had to say, but I disagree. This is We need companies such as GKN with eDrive what is wrong with corporate law and public policy in technology based in the UK to help facilitate the sector’s this country; it is about so much more than simply green transition. Demand is increasing for electric vehicle shareholder return—it is about UK plc. I will explain components, with global electric and plug-in hybrid that a little more. cells expected to rise to 40 million vehicles annually by 2025. Expansion of the eDrive could secure the site’s Let us be in no doubt, as tragic as the proposed long-term future and play a pivotal role in the UK closure would be for workers such as Frank, this issue is industry’s critical manufacturing capability. The eDrive about so much more than this important and historic equates to 15% of electric vehicles, comparable to next plant in Erdington. What is happening here is a canary generation batteries. By 2030, that is expected to increase in the coalmine for UK manufacturing, automotive and and make a significant contribution for exporters to decent jobs that level up. How the Government respond meet new rule-of-origin thresholds. The room for GKN’s is a huge test. Its significance cannot be overstated. expansion is there, ready and waiting, and may not only What kind of Government are they? Are they one save jobs, but could create them in the long run. that actively supports and, where necessary, intervenes If Melrose intends to push on with this decision, it in British industry; one that has a real and meaningful poses a critical temperature test of the Government’s plan to transition to a green new deal in key sectors industrial strategy, because what is levelling up if it is such as automotive; one in which global Britain leads not protecting, promoting and creating skilled, well-paid the way in the development and production of new jobs that are rooted in communities across the UK? If electric technologies, providing decent, high-paid jobs the Government allow GKN Birmingham to close, it for the future; and one for which levelling up is about a will undermine and further expose the UK automotive lot more than rhetoric and piecemeal pots of cash industry’s supply chain to risk. handed out on mates’ rates? Or are they a Government— which I fear the Business Secretary wants them to The Government must intervene and work with all be—who are unashamedly free market and laissez-faire, parties to prevent the closure of GKN in Birmingham, one in which people, place and opportunity are the fall and preventing the closure must be part of a wide guys for globalisation and free-market forces? interventionist green strategy to transition the automotive sector, ahead of the 2030 ban on new petrol and diesel Ministers might talk the talk of sharing prosperity vehicles. We need an electric vehicle revolution that in every part of the country, of a global Britain, of backs manufacturers and creates new jobs.The Government championing manufacturing and of greening our economy, must lead this step change by creating new gigafactories, but what actions they take here will show whether they protecting and enhancing the domestic supply chain are actually prepared to walk the walk as well. Be in no and making electric vehicle ownership affordable. The doubt at all that we are in a high-stakes global race for UK has the skills and capacity to be a global leader in green jobs, the technologies and the production capacity, the electric vehicle market, but the Government must a race in which Britain is being massively outgunned create the foundations for the sector to flourish. and outmanoeuvred by other countries prepared to 125WH GKN Automotive Plant: Birmingham28 APRIL 2021 GKN Automotive Plant: Birmingham 126WH invest and intervene on an unprecedented scale to ensure for our country. Automotive production is a delicate that their domestic industries and workers reap the ecosystem—once one part of the system is gone, it gains of that new drive. weakens the entire thing. The status quo does not exist, as the GKN situation That is why GKN is the canary here. If Ministers are shows. Either we fight hard to retain the capacity, the going to follow through on creating a more resilient jobs and the opportunities, or they go elsewhere. Let us domestic manufacturing sector, they must protect the not forget that GKN is a British company, now proposing automotive supply chain. This plant is right next door to offshore its last UK automotive manufacturing base, to one of its main customers, JLR. The plant in Poland against the commitments made by Melrose at the time. that will take over production if these plans go ahead is Do the Government think that Germany, France or four and a half days away. We are seeing the impact of even the US would allow the move of one of their key long supply chains already, where production at two of industrial businesses? Not a chance. This is a key test of JLR’s plants has recently had to stop because of delays Conservative industrial strategy—if indeed they have in importing microchips. one. Furthermore, the economic hit we have taken during The Government’s actions so far suggest that they do the pandemic—one of the worst in the G20—requires not believe in an active industrial strategy.They scrapped more intervention and stimulus to kick-start recovery the Industrial Strategy Council. Through covid, they and seize the opportunity of the green transition for a have had an aversion to sector support, and we have more productive,higher skilled, technology-driven economy. seen a rebranded plan for growth that does not appear That simply will not happen by chance or by market to create any growth. There can be no growth for forces. The costs and investment required are too high, communities in Erdington and beyond if Ministers do and the infrastructure and skills needed would never be not press the company to change course and to invest met by the private sector alone. All the while, our global rather than close the plant. competitors are pump-priming their recovery; just look There is an alternative here, as we have heard so well at what is happening in the US under Biden. during this debate. Unite and the workforce, with industry The situation at GKN also tests whether the Government experts, have developed a compelling alternative to really do have a recovery plan, or if it is just more closure, which involves an improved productivity plan rhetoric. If the Government are serious about levelling and a major shift to new products for electric vehicles up, then that has to be about safeguarding good, decent for their main customers, Jaguar Land Rover and Toyota— jobs in the midlands and across the country; investing which, by the way, lead the way in electric and hybrid in people and places; and ensuring we see a transition to vehicles.GKN’sonly remaining automotive plant specialises green which is just and fair. Letting this plant close on in technologies that are critical to the development and the basis of short-term decisions by private equity flies expansion of UK vehicle production—here, just in time, in the face of levelling up. domestically produced, which would not get tied up in rules of origin and the new red tape that we are seeing. This plant has a proud industrial heritage, with over Surely it is a no-brainer for a Government committed 50 years’history at the site. It is the only British automotive to British industry, to British car manufacturing and to plant owned by GKN, but now it threatens its future. Britain leading the way in electric vehicles to do whatever This is a UK company planning to close its only UK it takes to retain that capacity here in the UK. Or do automotive plant and move the jobs overseas. Frankly, they stand by and watch it move to Poland and France? it is a disgrace. If the Government care about people This is the real test for this Government, and I really and places and levelling up, then it starts with anchor hope that it is one that they will not fail. Will the industries and companies in places such as Erdington, Minister tell us today, will her Government do what it where unemployment is twice the national average. The takes and put pressure on the company thoroughly to Government must stand up for workers in Erdington explore the alternative business plan, or does she think and across the country in the supply chain, not stand that that is not her role? back and let vulture finance destroy jobs and decimate the proud history in this community. This is also a test of what kind of economy the Government want post Brexit. We were promised the This is also a test of the Government’s commitment freedom to support and intervene in British industry, to communities and places in levelling up. That is why outside the EU and free of the constraints of state aid we need deeds, not words. While the Government are rules. What is the point of that freedom if it is not used? high on ambition, they are low on action. Labour backs We were promised an economy that could be at the our automotive industry,and we have set out an ambitious forefront of seizing new opportunities, not one in which three-point plan to safeguard the industry’sfuture through key assets were being offshored back to the EU. We investment in gigafactories and measures to make owning have the EU trade deal, but there are clearly issues with an electric vehicle more affordable. rules of origin and the fact that the Government’s much Make no mistake, the eyes of workers and voters boasted tariff-free trade is anything but, particularly for across the midlands are on the future of GKN and our manufacturers caught up in a web of more red tape and world-leading automotive sector. If the Government bureaucracy. There is no doubt that this is a factor here. allow the plant to close on their watch, so many more The planned closure of GKN is also a test for the jobs and businesses will be threatened going forward, kind of recovery and economy we want post-covid. If from Vauxhall at Ellesmere Port to the production the pandemic has taught us anything about industry, it location of that iconic British car, the Mini, going is that we need more than simply ingenuity and leading electric. Many are watching to see whether or not the innovation; we also need domestic and resilient production Government are really serious about their rhetoric. This capacity. We have seen that long supply chains are not is a big test for the Government, one that none of us resilient, and that the lack of domestic capacity is bad want to see them fail. The consequences are too great. 127WH GKN Automotive Plant: Birmingham28 APRIL 2021 GKN Automotive Plant: Birmingham 128WH

10.19 am Ultimately, the future of the plant is a commercial decision for GKN management, but we stand ready to The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, discuss viable alternative proposals with GKN management. Energy and Industrial Strategy (Amanda Solloway): It is That could involve investment in capital equipment or a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, skills to stoke the plant’s competitiveness. In the event Dame Angela. I congratulate the hon. Member for of closure, with production carefully wound down over Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey) on securing the next 18 months, the priority will be to find new jobs this really important debate today. I have an awful lot of for those people who lose their jobs. GKN has committed respect for him, as he knows. I agree with the hon. to supporting its employees through this difficult time. Member for Manchester Central (Lucy Powell) about The Minister for Investment will follow that closely. the passion with which everybody has spoken in the debate. It has been absolutely crucial. As we know, the Melrose takeover of GKN in 2018 faced considerable opposition, with cross-party calls for The hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington is a it to be blocked on national security grounds. The long-standing advocate for the UK automotive sector takeover was considered by the then Secretary of State and champion of the world-class automotive businesses fairly and impartially, in accordance with the legal in his constituency, including GKN and Jaguar Land powers provided through the Enterprise Act 2002. Under Rover. The proposed closure of the GKN Automotive the 2002 Act, the Government have the power to intervene plant in Birmingham is deeply disappointing. I myself in mergers on public interest grounds. There are, however, have a background in manufacturing of over 20 years, strict and limited grounds for intervention. Ultimately, as the hon. Gentleman probably knows, and I feel a the review determined that there were no grounds for great connection to British industry—in fact, my great-uncle objecting to the deal. Melrose was required to make flew Spitfires, so I absolutely appreciate that aspect. I commitments to the Ministry of Defence to address am really sympathetic to the difficulties associated with matters relating to national security. a situation such as this. In March 2018, the then Business Secretary wrote to The Government are supporting manufacturing. “Build Simon Peckham, chief executive of Melrose Industries, Back Better: our plan for growth”sets out the Government’s setting out additional binding commitments that would plans to drive growth and build on our competitive be needed in the event that the takeover bid was successful. advantage through significant investment in infrastructure, A copy of the letter and the response from Melrose are skills and innovation. We will pursue growth levels in available in the House of Commons Library. As we every part of the UK, enabling the transition to net zero have heard today, there are differing views on whether and supporting our vision of a truly global Britain. those commitments have been met. The legally binding The proposed closure of the GKN plant was a great post-offer undertakings made to the Takeover Panel are shock to the employees and will be hugely concerning independently verified every six months by third party for them and their families. The plant is part of the advisers. The advisers provide a report to the Takeover fabric of the local community, producing components, Panel confirming Melrose’s compliance. as we know, for vehicle makers including JLR, Nissan As my hon. Friend the Member for Rugby (Mark and Toyota. It is a really important part of the UK Pawsey) said, these are challenging times for the automotive automotive sector,which provides 149,000 manufacturing sector. In 2020, 920,000 cars were produced in the UK, jobs. There are examples of employees spending most which was 29% down on 2019 levels. Businesses across of their lives at GKN, with some of them being there the automotive sector, including GKN, have had to from the time they leave education until retirement. As restructure to maintain competitiveness. we have heard, there are also people in their 20s with The Government have stood shoulder to shoulder young families to support. with businesses and workers to support them through The Government are committed to doing what we these challenging times and have provided an unprecedented can to save those high-skilled jobs. The Minister for level of support, including the furlough scheme. That Investment, Lord Grimstone, met with Liam Butterworth, helped protect the income of around 60% of the automotive chief executive of GKN Automotive, last month. That sector’s full-time employees when production was helped the Government to understand the rationale temporarily suspended last year. In addition, £4.6 billion behind the proposed closure and explore options for of liquidity has been provided to the sector through the securing a long-term, sustainable future for the Birmingham coronavirus loan scheme. The Government are committed plant. At the meeting, welcome assurances were given to supporting the sector through these challenging times, that all viable alternatives to closure will be considered. so that it can exploit future opportunity. Also, my right hon. Friend the Business Secretary and The global automotive sector is undergoing significant the Minister for Investment met with the hon. Member change, as production shifts to zero-emission vehicles for Birmingham, Erdington and representatives of Unite and supply chains are restructured to produce new the union regarding this issue last month. The mandatory technology. Modern developments in production plants employee consultation provides a platform for alternative are being accelerated and creating a once-in-a-lifetime proposals to closure to be presented. Unite has developed investment opportunity for the United Kingdom. To be its sustain-and-transition proposal, and we encourage it clear, this is not just about protecting the status quo and to table the proposal formally with GKN if it has not retaining the manufacturers that we have in the UK, already done so. including JLR, Nissan and Vauxhall, but about stimulating The hon. Members for Birmingham, Erdington and a high-tech market that cements our global position at for Easington (Grahame Morris) referred to transfer the forefront of mobility. pricing. We have been told by GKN that sales between The Government have announced £500 million of its plants are carried out on commercial terms, and that funding as part of a commitment of up to £1 billion is independently audited. over the next four years through the automotive 129WH GKN Automotive Plant: Birmingham28 APRIL 2021 GKN Automotive Plant: Birmingham 130WH transformation fund. That will help build, at pace and “the Great British Supply Chain”. scale, an internationally competitive zero-emission vehicle A fundamental rethink is under way in terms of vital supply chain in the United Kingdom, including in key strategic capabilities, and certainly the Chester Road regions where levelling up is crucial, such as the north-east, plant is an absolutely vital strategic capability for companies Wales and the west midlands, as highlighted so well by such as Jaguar Land Rover and Toyota. the hon. Member for Manchester Central. Crucially for the next stages, as a former trade unionist The UK-EU trade and co-operation agreement provides I always used to say that ultimately it is about getting to a phased introduction of the rules of origin requirements an outcome, a result, for the workers and for the country. for zero-emission vehicles. That was welcomed by the That involves three parties. First is Unite, whose work UK automotive sector as it allows manufacturers time on a well thought through and creative alternative I to increase local content—an issue raised by the hon. applaud. Let us be clear: it stands ready to have whatever Member for Birkenhead (Mick Whitley). GKN will discussions are necessary. In my experience, they can be be an important part of that future supply chain. It difficult discussions, but Unite stands ready to play its is developing cutting-edge vehicle technologies at its part. innovation centre in Abingdon. Securing investment in Second is Melrose. As I think has become widely gigafactories is a priority to meet demands from UK-based known, I am not its greatest fan in terms of how it has vehicle makers. The Government are in advanced conducted itself, but it has committed to looking at negotiations with several potential investors. alternatives to closure and we must hold it to that The Government are committed to ensuring that the commitment. Third is the role of Government to defend UK continues to be one of the best locations in the the British national interest and unashamedly recognise world to research and develop the next generation of that the loss of 519 directly employed jobs and all those vehicle technologies and to manufacture zero-emission in the supply chain will have devastating consequences vehicles. GKN is at the forefront of these technological for the industry in the midlands in one of the poorest developments through its innovation centre in Abingdon. parts of our country. Our aim is that the Birmingham plant also continues to The Minister has said some interesting and helpful be at the heart of GKN’s manufacturing operations. things about our preparedness to look at a range of As I explained, the Government are ready to discuss options for capital equipment and skills. These things alternative proposals that could include investments in always go in two phases.The second phase—God forbid—I capital equipment or in the skills needed to secure never want to get to, and that is what happens if closure future vehicle technology. That would help provide takes place and we have to pick up the pieces. Believe long-term, secure jobs for the dedicated and skilled you me: it would be absolutely heartbreaking, were that employees. to ever happen. The first phase is the one that we must concentrate on, so that the plant does not close and so 10.28 am that creative, well thought through alternatives are found and negotiated with assurances given. That is eminently Jack Dromey: I thank all those who have spoken in achievable. what has been a powerful debate. We have heard about The Minister is right that we both have strong experiences from Luton to Birkenhead in traditional backgrounds in the world of work, and I have been areas of engineering and motor manufacturing. My involved, sadly, in many, many workplace closures over hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Grahame Morris) the years, some of which we have won, such as Rosyth made a powerful contribution and pointed out that the Dockyard. I know what it takes to get to a result; it is four directors of Melrose have done rather well out of eminently achievable. Forgive me if I stress this for one what has happened in the last three years. final time: the role of Government will be absolutely Let me go straight to the heart of the matter. This is a key in holding Melrose to its commitments. If they do great plant with a great history that must not now that, it is possible for a plant with a great history to have become history. That would be a betrayal of the workers a great future. If we meet the workers or talk to car concerned, but also a betrayal of the British national industry executives, we come to recognise just how interest. As the shadow Minister, my hon. Friend the important this is. It would be utterly heartbreaking, and Member for Manchester Central (Lucy Powell), said a betrayal of the British national interest, were the plant and the Minister acknowledged, there are serious to close. That must never happen. implications if the remaining domestic producer of Question put and agreed to. vital components for the industry closes and we become Resolved, dependent on supply chains from France, Poland and That this House has considered the proposed closure of GKN beyond. There are serious issues in terms of the British Automotive plant in Birmingham. national interest. It is fascinating that today, in its interesting report, 10.33 am the Covid Recovery Commission talks about Sitting suspended. 131WH 28 APRIL 2021 Redundancy Protection: Women and 132WH New Parents Redundancy Protection: Women and and about their plans to have young children; New Parents “During recruitment, women should have to disclose whether they are pregnant”; “Women should work for an organisation for at least a year 11 am before deciding to have children”; Dame Angela Eagle (in the Chair): I remind hon. “Women who become pregnant and new mothers in work are generally less interested in career progression than other employees”. Members that there have been some changes to normal practice to support the new hybrid arrangements. I Many of those interviewed claimed to have seen at remind Members participating or intervening virtually least one pregnant woman “take advantage” of their that they are visible at all times to each other and us in pregnancy, and regarded pregnancy as putting an the Boothroyd Room. If Members attending virtually “unnecessary cost burden” on the workplace—quite have any technical problems, they should email the shocking. Given that those attitudes and views are Westminster Hall Clerks’email address.Members attending widely held among employers and managers, is it any physically should clean their spaces before they use wonder that pregnant women and new mothers are so them and as they leave the room. I also remind Members widely discriminated against in the workplace? that Mr Speaker has stated that masks should be worn I am sure the Minister is familiar with the proverb, in Westminster Hall. “It takes a village to raise a child”. It is 25 years since Hillary Clinton highlighted that, in our modern and Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP) [V]: I beg highly urbanised society, the underlying premise of that to move, proverb is perhaps truer now than it has ever been. Of course, children are vital to the future of our society That this House has considered extending redundancy protection for women and new parents. and our economy, with declining birth rates, increasing life spans and ever-more dispersed families. Perhaps, It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Dame whatever we might think in our ever-more digital world, Angela, and to raise the important issue of extending we are collectively becoming more dependent on community redundancy protection for women and new parents. networks and wider society than ever before. Regrettably, as in so many areas where progress is How can those interrelationships and that long-term needed, Scotland is being held back from taking action intergenerational benefit work, though, if the first thing due to employment law being reserved to Westminster. that happens to an expectant woman or a new mother is Without power over employment law, Scotland is not that she loses her job and her family’s ability to raise a able to legislate to protect women and new parents from child is compromised? However, unfortunately, as the discrimination and unfair redundancy. Scotland should research shows, far too often that is indeed what happens, not have to wait for Westminster to act to prevent so I hope it is accepted by the UK Government that no widespread redundancy discrimination, and I look forward one should have to fear losing their job because they to the time when we do not have to do so. become pregnant. Surely that must be a given. However, despite the lack of progress to date, I Between employers and Governments, effective acknowledge the work undertaken by many Members arrangements should be in place to support women and of this House on a cross-party basis and by organisations their families through the potentially life-changing process such as the Equality and Human Rights Commission, of pregnancy and child rearing. However, under current going back many years. In 2015, the commission published arrangements, women only have enhanced protection research that revealed that one in 20 new mothers are from redundancy until they return from maternity leave, made redundant during pregnancy or maternity leave, and the evidence is that this protection is not working. or on their return to work. That shocking statistic All the protection means is that a woman on maternity reveals a disturbing level of disregard on the part of leave can be made redundant, but must be offered an some employers for the needs of women, children and alternative job above anyone else being made redundant new families. if another job exists, which can prove a very big caveat. The following year, the Taylor review into modern The current lawdoes not stop employers using pregnancy working practices highlighted further research that as an excuse for a piece of cost-cutting, as demonstrated confirmed that the majority of employers expressed a by the case of Jessica—which is not her real name. willingness to support pregnant women and new mothers. Jessica, whose case was disclosed by the campaign The report commented favourably on the finding that group Pregnant Then Screwed, had a well-paid job, more than 80% of employers felt it was in their interest became pregnant, and was made redundant on the day to support pregnant women and new mothers. However, she was due to return from maternity leave. The day women might be less enamoured with the finding that before she was due back, which was during lockdown, at least one in 10 employers, and possibly as many as she received a text telling her to not go into the office, one in five, are not willing to support pregnant women but to be available for a video call with a senior manager. and new mothers. During that call, she was told that she was being made The detailed findings show a disturbing level of redundant. She had been back at work for all of 30 minutes. acceptance among employers and managers that She is convinced that the firm simply wanted to cut its discrimination against women on the basis of their staff budget, and by going on maternity leave, she had decision to bear children or their caring responsibilities unknowingly self-selected for redundancy. What a way is acceptable. All the following views were endorsed by to treat a member of staff, and what a welcome to the at least a third of the employers and managers interviewed world for her child, into a family now burdened by for the research: unaffordable debt and forced to move out of their “During recruitment, it is reasonable to ask women if they home, and with a mother whose mental health and have young children”, career are in tatters. 133WH Redundancy Protection: Women and 28 APRIL 2021 Redundancy Protection: Women and 134WH New Parents New Parents As an employee of the company, Jessica might have throughout pregnancy and maternity leave and for six had some chance of arguing a case for discrimination, months afterwards. In 2017, in their response to the although the costs and hurdles associated with attempting Committee, the Government indicated that the current this would, and do, put most people off trying. On the position was “clearly unacceptable.”Yet, here we are—four other hand, Mandy, whose case was highlighted by the years on and no further forward. Had the UK Government Taylor review, had no chance of doing so, because legal implemented reform within the timeframe proposed by protections in the UK are so heavily and deliberately the Committee, many women would have been spared weighted against workers who are not direct employees. unfair redundancy and discrimination prior to and in Mandy had worked for a bank on a zero-hours contract the aftermath of the pandemic. for several months. However, when she informed her In the absence of action by Government, last year the employer that she was pregnant, her hours were reduced right hon. Member for Basingstoke (Mrs Miller) introduced to zero; in effect, she was summarily dismissed with no a ten-minute rule Bill on pregnancy and maternity recourse. Mandy is one of those pregnant women and redundancy protection, which is still awaiting Second new mothers who have borne the brunt of the increasing Reading. The Bill seeks to casualisation of the UK workforce. She found out that “prohibit redundancy during pregnancy and maternity leave and employment status, whether as a direct employee, self- for six months after the end of pregnancy or leave, except in employed, or as a limb (b) worker, is important, because specified circumstances; and for connected purposes”. it dictates entitlement to some key maternity and parental The SNP wholeheartedly supports the Bill. It is extremely rights. Those in the growing number of insecure forms disappointing that the UK Government have yet to put of employment can find their rights greatly diminished, their weight behind it. reducing or eliminating their entitlements to maternity and parental pay and leave, health and safety protection, Earlier this year, Jamie Hepburn MSP, the Minister time off for antenatal appointments, and rights to return for Business, Fair Work and Skills in the Scottish to work. Government, wrote to the Minister responding today, outlining the Scottish Government’s support for a range The “Insecure Labour” report produced by Maternity of reforms to support women and families, including Action in November 2020 spells out some of the extending redundancy protections for women and new implications of casualised or insecure work on women parents. The letter makes clear the Scottish Government’s workers, and pregnant women and new mothers in support for the Bill. It has also been endorsed by particular. Heather Wakefield, chair of Maternity Action, Maternity Action, which said that the Government said that the report should strengthen redundancy protections by immediately “paints a shocking picture, which requires swift and radical adopting the Bill as its own and expedite it into law. action by Government, employers and trade unions to halt the damaging impact of casualisation on the working lives and Commenting on the current law, Rosalind Bragg, wellbeing of pregnant women and new mothers.” director of Maternity Action, said: Cases such as Jessica’s and Mandy’s are not isolated “The current law on redundancy and maternity is complex, incidents, certainly not during the pandemic. Last summer, poorly understood and difficult to enforce.” Pregnant Then Screwed conducted research involving She highlighted that women often find the person covering almost 20,000 pregnant women and mothers. It found their maternity leave is kept on, while their role is made that 10% of pregnant women said that they had been redundant, and described that as made redundant, or expected to be in the next six “a classic case of unfair and unlawful redundancy”. months. More than half said that their pregnancy was a factor. Some 11% of women on maternity leave said Maternity Action recognises that it may be impossible they had been made redundant, or expected to be in the for pregnant women and new mothers to devote their next six months, and more than 60% said that their energy and finances to pursuing employment tribunal maternity leave was a factor. Almost 13% of women claims, which is why it is important that the timescale who had recently returned from maternity leave said for pursuing such claims is extended from three to six that they had been made redundant, or expected to be months. in the next six months. Two thirds said that their maternity Shamefully, due to the UK Government’s inaction on leave was a factor. redundancy protection, women across the UK are facing Further research that Pregnant Then Screwed conducted a new wave of pregnancy discrimination and unfair in March and April of this year suggests that the redundancies as the furlough scheme winds down and situation is worse this year than it was last year. Surveying employees try to return to their jobs. After years of the 16,000 pregnant women and mothers, it found that 30% Government failing to deliver on their commitment to believed they had experienced discrimination from their act, urgent legislation is now needed. employer during the pandemic. Clearly, if the protection In April 2019, the UK Government accepted the is not working as it should, that is something that need to extend redundancy protection for six months should have been addressed long before now. The SNP once the new mother has returned to work, afford the has been pressing the UK Government to act to protect same protection to those taking adoption leave and pregnant women and new mothers facing discrimination extend redundancy protection for those returning from and unfair treatment in the workplace, yet five years on shared parental leave.It is now time for the UK Government from the EHRC research, the UK Government have so to act and I look forward to seeing those proposals far failed to take the necessary steps to prevent redundancy reflected in the Queen’s Speech on 11 May. discrimination. Surely the UK Government would agree If the Minister is able, I am also keen to hear his with the need to protect pregnant women and new mothers. thoughts and the Government’s plans to protect women In 2016, the Women and Equalities Committee and new parents in their employment in the context of recommended the UK Government implement within the pandemic and the future of work. As we move out the next two years additional redundancy protection of the immediate crisis of the pandemic, some things 135WH Redundancy Protection: Women and 28 APRIL 2021 Redundancy Protection: Women and 136WH New Parents New Parents [Kirsten Oswald] key findings. Around one in nine mothers reported that they were dismissed, made compulsorily redundant when are very clear. For instance, unfortunately, jobs and job others in their workplace were not, or treated so poorly security will be an issue and concern for many people. that they felt that they had to leave their jobs. We cannot simply throw women and new parents on a jobs bonfire post pandemic. Employment protections, Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank the hon. equality provisions and flexibility are all areas where, Member for East Renfrewshire (Kirsten Oswald) for although in-roads have been made, they are not nearly setting the scene so well. From his comments, I understand enough. We must accept the need to go further. the Minister is sympathetic to this issue. Overall, three Rather than aiming to go back to the old normal, the in four mothers, 77%, said they had a negative or Government must consider fair work, the future of possibly discriminatory experience during pregnancy, work, and what jobs and work will and should look like. maternity leave and/or return from maternity leave. All of us lose out when we restrict the talent pool by They have an issue that needs to be addressed. I understand putting unnecessary barriers to work in front of women that the Government will respond in a positive way but and new parents. An unthinking return to the same old, even though the Government are indicating welcome same old would be a real lost opportunity to do things measures, such as extension of time protection on return differently and to take a lead on the employment policies from maternity leave, there are wider aspects that need and practices and structures that will make work possible to be addressed, such as shared parental leave, and the for women, new parents and those with caring and stigma that still attaches to a father taking that essential other responsibilities. Things like the right to request leave. When the Minister makes his good points, will he flexible working from the start of a job would make a also address that? vast difference to many employees, and would support employers, too, in adopting the working practices and Paul Scully: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. environments that will allow the talents of all employees There are plenty of wider issues to be considered, to properly shine through. including the right to request flexible working that we I look forward to the Minister’s response on these have heard about. Making that a default option is and the other points that I have made today. something we have talked about significantly and want to ensure is at the heart of the Employment Bill, when parliamentary time allows that to come forward. 11.15 am We still need to do plenty of work with shared The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, parental leave. We have collected a lot of data through Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully): It is a the consultation as part of the formal evaluation of the pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Dame Angela. shared parental leave and pay scheme. That will give us I congratulate the hon. Member for East Renfrewshire a fuller picture of how well the current system of (Kirsten Oswald) on securing today’s important debate parental leave and pay overall is working for parents on extending redundancy protections for women and and employers. Some of the examples that we hear time new parents. I can assure her that simply going back to and again in the Chamber and Westminster Hall indicate how things were, as she talks about, will not be the case, that it is not working, so there is plenty more that we as I will outline. As we get through to the Employment can do. Bill and further consultation and discussions with businesses and other groups, including Pregnant Then Screwed, I To return to the findings I was talking about before hope we will end up in a far better place to ensure that the hon. Gentleman’s intervention, if they are scaled up we can tackle some of those issues. to the general population, it could mean as many as 54,000 mothers a year are losing their jobs, in many From the correspondence I receive as a constituency cases simply because they have had a child. Furthermore, MP and as a Minister, I know what a crucial issue this our research found that one in five mothers said they is, and the pernicious effect that discrimination can have had experienced harassment or negative comments related on both the immediate and the longer-term prospects of to pregnancy or flexible working from their employer or women in work. More generally, there is the drag that colleagues. If scaled up, again, to the general population, that can put on equality and productivity. Last month, that could mean as many as 100,000 mothers having the hon. Member for Glasgow Central (Alison Thewliss) similar negative experiences. That can never be right. brought a number of representative organisations to talk to me about the challenges that pregnant women The case for Government action is as clear as day. and new mothers are facing as a result of covid, so I am That is why we consulted on measures to improve aware of the many issues that some women face. redundancy protection for pregnant women and new parents. Following that consultation, the Government’s I will start by being crystal clear about two things. formal response said that we will: ensure the redundancy First, there can be absolutely no excuse for discrimination protection period applies from the point the employee against pregnant women or women on maternity leave. informs the employer that she is pregnant; extend the There is no excuse for any form of discrimination; it is redundancy protection period for six months once a unlawful. It can have absolutely no place as we start to new mother has returned to work; extend redundancy build back better after the pandemic. Wecannot effectively protection into a period of return to work for those level up if we continue to allow some groups to be taking adoption leave, following the same approach as treated poorly simply because of who or what they are. the extended protection provided for those returning Secondly, I will not hide from the fact that there is a from maternity leave; and extend redundancy protection real issue here. The research that we jointly funded with into a period of return to work for those taking shared EHRC has been cited and makes for uncomfortable parental leave. We have been clear that we will introduce reading. It is worth reminding ourselves of some of the these measures as soon as parliamentary time allows. 137WH Redundancy Protection: Women and 28 APRIL 2021 Redundancy Protection: Women and 138WH New Parents New Parents The ten-minute rule Bill from my right hon. Friend women and those on maternity leave, with the main the Member for Basingstoke (Mrs Miller) was raised. I reasons being to increase staff retention and to create am aware of calls for us to do things differently. Indeed, better morale among employees, but we know that I met my right hon. Friend and other colleagues to many employers feel that women should declare up discuss her proposal, which follows aspects of the German front during recruitment whether they are pregnant. approach, and my predecessors held similar meetings. It EHRC and Department for Business, Innovation and is not the objective that we disagree on but the means of Skills research back in 2016 put a figure of 70% on this. achieving it, and even then we share a lot of common Further, the same research found that a quarter of ground. The key difference is that the Government’s employers felt that it was reasonable during recruitment preferred approach retains and extends the current position to ask women about their plans to have children, so of giving the pregnant woman or new parent preferential clearly there is some way to go. treatment so that, in effect, they are first in the queue Tackling the challenge of pregnancy and maternity for suitable remaining jobs in a redundancy situation. discrimination will require action on many fronts. That Others suggest removing the current framework and is why we committed to set up an employer and replacing it with a comprehensive redundancy band family representative group, which I want to make with some very limited exceptions so that, in effect, that recommendations on what improvements can be made a pregnant woman or new mother could only be made to the information available to employers and families redundant when a business is closing down. The on pregnancy and maternity discrimination. Rather Government have not yet been convinced by that argument. than focusing on the end of the process, redundancy, I At its simplest, taking that approach could require want the group to look at earlier stages of the employment employers to continue to employ people even when lifecycle, because we need to shift the whole focus of the there is no work for them to do if the business continued debate on pregnancy and maternity discrimination so to exist. That burden would fall particularly heavily on that employers get it right in the first place, rather than small businesses. That is why we continue to believe that focusing only on what happens when things go wrong. I extending the existing framework remains the right want the group to develop an action plan on the steps approach. We believe that we are more likely to promote organisations can take to make it easier for pregnant the culture change we seek by placing a slightly more women and new mothers to stay in work and for them flexible requirement on employers for an extended period. to progress throughout their careers. The six-month extension of additional redundancy We are having final discussions with business and protection into a return-to-work period will provide a family representative groups. Indeed, only the week period of up to 27 months when pregnant women and before last, Maternity Action wrote to the Secretary of new mothers will be first in the queue for suitable State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy on remaining jobs in a redundancy situation. I believe that behalf of a number of trade unions and family groups will represent a considerable and significant step forward to set out views on areas that might usefully be covered. in redundancy protection for pregnant women and new This discussion is therefore very much a live one, and I mothers. hope to be able to announce the group’s membership I have heard the arguments that there ought to be a and first meeting date soon. role for state enforcement in redundancies involving I congratulate once again the hon. Member for East a pregnant woman or new mother. We need to tread Renfrewshire on securing this important debate and for carefully when looking at state roles within those sort of keeping this issue in the public eye. I started off by areas. All redundancies should be fair, and it would not talking about how most employers realise the value be rational to treat one group within the workplace any of investing in their workforce and supporting them differently from another by giving them a different throughout their career. There are clearly actions that arbiter in the redundancy process. I appreciate the we need to take and issues we must address, as she and pressure and strain that the employment tribunal system the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) outlined is under and will be under owing to the covid pandemic, eloquently. I look forward to working with the taskforce, but none the less it has considerable strengths. For seeing what it has to offer, listening to further debates instance, it allows for careful consideration of employment both in this place and in responding to it and tackling disputes, which are often complex or may not be clear-cut, many of these issues, as parliamentary time allows. by those with appropriate expertise. Case law from Question put and agreed to. employment tribunals allows our laws to evolve and develop to reflect changing working practices. 11.25 am However,I am only too aware that improving redundancy protection only goes so far. The majority of employers Sitting suspended. report that it is in their interest to support pregnant 139WH 28 APRIL 2021 British Meat and Dairy Products 140WH

British Meat and Dairy Products Since covid started, many of us have begun shopping more locally, and our local farmers have adapted and [MS NUSRAT GHANI in the Chair] innovated to help their communities through the pandemic. In Croyde, in my constituency, the Heywood family 2.30 pm have adapted their North Hole organic milk farm to sell Ms Nusrat Ghani (in the Chair): I remind Members through a vending machine to their local community. that there have been some changes in practice in order The milk is delicious and the vending-machine experience to support the new hybrid arrangements. Timings of is a great way to link locals to their farm. Watching the debates have been amended to allow technical arrangements fully robotic milking parlour is also an incredible experience. to be made for the next debate. There will also be Those organic cows have a great life and their milk is suspensions between each debate. I remind Members highly nutritious. Dairy products contain high-quality participating physically and virtually that they must protein, calcium, B vitamins, iodine and potassium. arrive for the start of the debate, and Members are Dairy foods, such as milk, cheese and yogurt, are vital expected to remain for the entire debate. to bone health. Importantly, the greenhouse gas footprint I must also remind Members participating virtually of UK milk production is just 40% of the global average. that they are visible at all times, both to each other and There are 278 million dairy cows worldwide. If they were to us in the Boothroyd Room. If Members attending all as efficient as UK dairy cows, we would need only virtually have any technical problems, they should email 76 million of them to produce the same amount of milk. the Westminster Hall Clerks’ email address. Members This week is Great British Beef Week, which this year attending physically should clean their spaces before is focused on recognising and highlighting British beef they use them and as they leave the room. I also remind farmers and the work they do to support sustainable Members that Mr Speaker has stated that masks should practices on their farms. Red meat is one of the richest be worn. sources of essential nutrients, such as iron, zinc and Members attending physically who are in the later B vitamins, and a great protein source. It is also much stages of the call list should use the seats in the public lower in fat than it was 20 years ago. My local NFU gallery and move on to the horseshoe when seats become chair, Daniel Balment, is the third generation on his available, but please sit where there are microphones beef and sheep farm near Brayford. Daniel maximises functioning. the grass that the farm grows well to convert to protein, as 65% of farmland in the UK is best suited to growing 2.31 pm grass, rather than other crops. The UK climate is ideal Selaine Saxby (North Devon) (Con): I beg to move, for growing grass. Other crops could not be grown for That this House has considered British meat and dairy products. food on many farms. That has to be factored in to It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, maximising the output of our land. Ms Ghani. I am grateful to have secured this important Farmers have always been custodians of the countryside, debate at a time when there appears to be a growing and the Agriculture Act 2020 is potentially the biggest disjoint between media coverage of farming and the victory for nature and farming in a generation. Under reality of those of us who live among it. I hope as a the framework of public money for public goods, farmers baseline we can all agree that in order to survive we will be paid according to the benefits they provide to the need to eat. In this country, we are fortunate that public—mostly environmental improvements—rather than generally we can choose what we eat and where we buy on how much land they farm. Our British farmers are it, albeit with factors such as price, availability and, already committed to reducing their emissions and reaching especially, concern for the environment influencing our net zero ahead of the Government’s 2050 deadline. This decisions. policy will go a long way towards supporting them. Historically, there was far less choice in the food we consumed and our reliance on home-grown produce Livestock provides us with healthy, fertile soil, beautiful was significantly greater than it is today. If the pandemic landscapes—as my North Devon constituency is testament has taught us one thing it is that it is good to be able to to—efficient water use, carbon sequestration, and unique, produce at home what we need, and we all need to eat. biodiverse wildlife habitats. The suggestion that reducing As a former fitness instructor, I know well how a meat and dairy consumption is a solution to climate healthy and nutritious diet is vital to ensuring that the change is an oversimplification. As I said earlier, we all body has the nutrients it needs not just to survive but to have to eat, and in general we choose what we eat. Much thrive. Those needs change at different points in our of the food on our supermarket shelves has travelled lives and according to our activity levels. If we are going thousands of miles to get there and is not produced to to tackle climate change in a meaningful way, healthy as high a standard as it would be here in Great Britain. bodies with healthy minds are best equipped to do that. Many non-dairy or meat-free alternatives are shipped across the world to reach us, are less nutritious with less I am fortunate to represent North Devon, home protein, are higher in saturated fat and are nowhere near to 475 NFU members, including 95 dairy farmers and as good for the environment as British meat and dairy. 323 livestock farmers. I do not need to go far to find For example, products such as almond milk require delicious, nutritious British food that comes from 20 times more blue water—water from the normal environmentally responsible sources. British meat and water supply—than British dairy milk, which is much dairy are produced to some of the highest environmental more reliant on green water from natural rainfall. and welfare standards in the world. Buying local can reduce the environmental footprint of our supply chains When choosing what to put in our shopping baskets— and incentivise sustainable farming. Totake one example, [Interruption.] according to the Government’sClimate Change Committee, greenhouse gas emissions from UK beef are about half Ms Nusrat Ghani (in the Chair): Order. The sitting is the global average. suspended for 15 minutes for a Division in the House. 141WH British Meat and Dairy Products28 APRIL 2021 British Meat and Dairy Products 142WH

2.37 pm costs of doing business and the unacceptable administrative Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. burden now facing local companies and farms has to cease. The ability to trade in livestock across the Irish Sea without impediment must be rectified. It is beyond 2.45 pm belief that any UK Government would accept such a On resuming— situation within its own borders. I again thank the hon. Member for North Devon for Ms Nusrat Ghani (in the Chair): The sitting will continue securing this debate and for allowing us to both celebrate until 4.08 pm. and promote the needs of our farmers and our agrifood sector. Selaine Saxby: As I was saying, many non-dairy or meat-free alternatives are shipped across the world to 2.50 pm reach us, and are nowhere near as good for the environment Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con): It is a as British meat and dairy. Products such as almond great pleasure to speak in this debate, Ms Ghani. I milk require 20 times more blue water—from normal thank my neighbour, my hon. Friend the Member for water supply—than British dairy milk, which is more North Devon (Selaine Saxby), for securing the debate, reliant on green water, from natural rainfall. When because British meat and dairy products are a great choosing what to put in our shopping basket, we should asset to the whole country and to everybody who eats look for the Red Tractor—the symbol of British farming. them. I can say that I have consumed a large quantity of Buying locally and seasonally not only might give people both meat and dairy; hon. Members can see that a good a much better diet but will do significantly more to live weight gain was achieved in the process. Joking reduce emissions compared with the alternatives. We apart, we sometimes forget the great part that meat and can all do our bit to work towards net zero, by buying dairy farming plays in looking after the landscape and local British produce to support our great British farmers. the grass. When we look at holding carbon in the soil, we sometimes forget how much carbon is held by permanent 2.46 pm pasture. It is a great pleasure to speak in this debate and to Carla Lockhart (Upper Bann) (DUP) [V]: I thank the follow the hon. Member for Upper Bann (Carla Lockhart). hon. Member for North Devon (Selaine Saxby) for She raised the interesting point that there is a problem securing this debate as we mark Great British Beef at the moment with exporting from Scotland into Northern Week. As a representative of a rural constituency, I am Ireland. Scotland should not have to export to Northern incredibly proud of the world-class produce our farmers Ireland, as it is part of the United Kingdom. We heard supply to kitchen tables, restaurants, the food service evidence at the Select Committee on Environment, Food industry and elsewhere. Using one of the most sustainable and Rural Affairs from Northern Irish farmers having production methods in the world and of the highest problems getting sheep from Scotland, because they standards, our farmers work night and day to ensure have been on winter keep since the end of last year and their produce is truly something to celebrate. they are not yet able to go over to Northern Ireland. It is those standards on animal welfare, environmental When they get to Northern Ireland, they have to have protection and traceability that this Government must their tags removed and have another tag put in. I suggest properly protect. As we look at future trade deals, those that that is also an animal welfare issue that needs to be standards must not be sacrificed on the altar of free dealt with. I have great respect for the Under-Secretary trade. That would be deeply unfair on our agrifood of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, my industry, and it would be against the will of the people hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Victoria Prentis), who take confidence in the UK mark being on what we who is here today, and for the Secretary of State, but we eat. The UK mark—the Union flag marking the safety need to do more to rectify the trade situation between and quality of produce—must become more prevalent, Scotland and the rest of the UK, including Wales, and not least in the catering industry. We need to improve Northern Ireland, so I look forward to that being sorted transparency in this regard to ensure the food in this out. sector is not swamped by cheap, sub-standard imports. We live in a world where, if we are not careful and if We must support the industry as new markets open we do not value the great meat and dairy production in up. That support must be in the form of a marketing this country, we will land up importing a great deal drive, support for promotional activity and, most more food. When we import food we have to analyse importantly, substantial investment in our production how it was produced, including looking at the water chain. Our processing sector needs the support of this that was used across the world to produce it. Many Government to achieve more value-added product. Primary countries probably cannot afford to have water taken producers and processors need support for research and away from them for the production of exports to this development to drive efficiency. We in Northern Ireland country. need this Government to support our devolved One only has to look at the Brazils of this world to Administration to make this investment, to match the see that they are driving their beef cattle towards the aggressive drive for market dominance from the Irish Amazon, they are ploughing up the savannah and they Republic. are damaging the environment. We need to help the It is vital for our industry right across the United Brazilians to stop that process. Perhaps the President of Kingdom that this Government consign the protocol to Brazil, dare I say it, might have something to do with the dustbin. The unacceptable impact on east-west trade what is going on. We need to take this very seriously. We must be corrected, to return to the free flow of goods must not look for the cheapest product in the world and the integrity of our internal market that we enjoyed when we import, because doing that does much to before the protocol was put in place. The additional damage the environment. We produce our meat and 143WH British Meat and Dairy Products28 APRIL 2021 British Meat and Dairy Products 144WH

[Neil Parish] number of dairy farmers. I declare that interest with some pride; it contributes directly and indirectly to the dairy from grass, but we must be careful when we Carmichael family mortgage payment every month. import proteins to help with that because some of that Food production has always been at the heart of the protein, especially the soya bean, is grown on deforested local economies in Orkney and Shetland. The designation land or savannah. All of these things are important. of Orkney beef and Shetland lamb as protected geographic The number of Members here today shows that we indicators is an indication of that and, indeed, of the think our production of both meat and dairy is important. quality of the produce for which we have been responsible We not only have great permanent pasture but good over the years. In recent decades, we have seen a growth grass leys. The New Zealanders have done a lot of work in producers who have been able to add value in a on the digestibility of grass leys and different types of blossoming food and drink sector, which, in turn, has grass, which affects the amount of methane gas that fed into a growing visitor economy, so it remains as animals produce while they are producing meat and important to the northern isles today as it always has been. milk. If a cow milks more efficiently and gives more In Orkney, we have a long history of producing litres of milk, the total amount of methane gas given off finished cattle for Orkney beef. In Shetland, traditionally collectively is far less, as my hon. Friend the Member we produced cattle for the store market, but in recent years, for North Devon said. With the production of beef, the by a bit of creativity and a lot of effort, local farmers in more efficiently we can produce it, and the better the Shetland have also been able to produce finished cattle, breeding, the quicker and faster that beef is produced, which have been slaughtered for local consumption in and again, the methane gas is far less. our good, well operated local abattoir. It is an exemplar We have to take production of agriculture very much of how agriculture can feed into a rural or island in the round. I think it is very simplistic to say, “Stop economy such as ours. Crucial to that operation, however, eating meat, stop eating dairy—that will solve the problems is the existence and operation of a thriving network of of the world.”No, it won’t, actually, because the grassland local shops. My concern today is that many of those local in this country relies entirely on meat and milk shops are currently under threat. production—that is the balance. I made the joke when I We have had supermarkets in Shetland for decades, started that I am a product of eating much meat and like everybody else—we have a big Tesco and a fairly much dairy, so for me to actually say this is almost big Co-op in Lerwick and a smaller but still sizeable unbelievable,but there could be an argument that sometimes Co-op in Brae—but recently the Co-op Group lodged we do not actually need to eat quite as much meat or applications for planning permission for two further quite as much dairy, and I would probably be the first to Co-ops, which would be bigger operations, in communities admit that. On the other hand, a balanced diet is so in Scalloway and Sandwick, which are currently served necessary.If we look at the research, an expectant mother, by a variety of small, thriving local independent shops. for example, is not always able to gain the right protein Those shops are quite clear that if the applications are and nutrients without their vegetable or vegan diet granted, the future for them looks to be pretty bleak. being very expensive and diverse. Let us be sensible as That network of rural shops, however, is absolutely we move forward. Meat and dairy play such an important critical to food production in the Northern Isles, and role. the farmers I spoke about, who now produce finished My final point is that this is linked to the countryside cattle for slaughter and sale in the local retail sector, will that we see and love. Grassland, heathland, moorland, struggle if that network of local shops is not there. and Exmoor—my constituency adjoins that of my hon. One of the local shops that will be most directly Friend the Member for North Devon through the affected told me last week that it reckons that it takes Blackdown hills, a very small part of Exmoor—these goods from no fewer than 80 different local suppliers, are all areas of grassland and permanent pasture, and which are all small and medium-sized enterprises that they are very beautiful and full of trees. All of those will never sell in the same quantity to a big outlet such things are so essential. Do not forget that although it is as the Co-op Group. We know, and the Co-op will tell beautiful that people can go and walk in and enjoy our us, that it takes from local producers to put local lines landscape—we want to see more of that—it is not into its shops. That is true. However, the beef and lamb entirely a playground; it is also a production zone for farmers and those food producers who add some value producing good-quality food. If we combine the two, to our local products will tell us that the Co-op, like all which I think we can do easily, food, farming and the supermarkets, will take their products, but only on its countryside can all come together. I very much support terms. Therefore, even if a product does end up on the my hon. Friend’s debate. shelf, the supermarket will determine the price, the quantity, the regularity of supply, the delivery and often 2.57 pm even the labelling. The hard commercial reality is that Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD): these local suppliers cannot survive on the margins It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, that the supermarkets give them, so the existence of Ms Ghani. I congratulate the hon. Member for North that network of local shops is critical to the future viability Devon (Selaine Saxby) on securing this important and of agriculture in Orkney and Shetland. timely debate. The Co-op does have a long tradition of being at the I do not think it is, strictly speaking, a declarable heart of highland and island communities, and I am interest, but the House may be aware that I come from sure I am not the only one who spent many happy—or farming family. My family still farm on the south-east not so happy—childhood evenings licking stamps to be corner of Islay. My wife is a partner in a veterinary put in the Co-op book for the dividend, but the Co-op practice in Orkney, serving a diverse range of farming Group today is a very different beast. It operates effectively interests: beef and lamb production, and, sadly,a decreasing in the same predatory manner as we would expect of 145WH British Meat and Dairy Products28 APRIL 2021 British Meat and Dairy Products 146WH any other supermarket, bearing down on suppliers in student. The UK is about 85% self-sufficient in dairy communities such as mine. It is a trail that many production and beef, but 98% self-sufficient when it communities the length and breadth of the country comes to lamb. We need to work to a point where it is have seen over the years, but for a company such as the not just lamb that is in surplus, but where we are near Co-op Group that has always prided itself—and, dare I self-sufficient in many more sectors. say it, marketed itself quite effectively—on being the What is the difference between our lamb and beef supermarket that was somehow different, to have this sectors? It could partly be better marketing of beef, change in its culture is unfortunate to say the very least. which is usually a more expensive option in the supermarket. I hope that it understands the damage it risks doing The deficit is something we want to change with our to the delicate and complex economic ecosystem that new trading arrangements. Beef exports from the UK communities such as ours rely on. Once an economic last year came to £382 million, with growing markets in ecosystem such as that is lost, it can never be easily recreated. Hong Kong, Singapore, Peru and Canada. There is also I do not wish to hold the House, but I want to growing demand in China for British pork, and in mention one other matter of supreme importance to the France for high-quality lamb produced in the Cotswolds. production of food in the Northern Isles: the ability to British agriculture needs to increase and diversify its export it to other parts of Scotland and the United exports as much as it can in new international markets, Kingdom. It comes to the point made by the hon. after heavily relying on Europe. There is no reason why Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Neil Parish). The British food manufacturers cannot be innovative enough Scottish Government are currently undertaking a to create a wider range of products using British produce. consultation on the transportation of animals within That is especially the case for dairy-based products that Scotland. For us, with a 12-hour journey from Shetland are heavily imported, such as yoghurt and prepared to Aberdeen, that could have very serious implications. desserts. That is unnecessary when we have such a Even the shorter journey from Orkney to Aberdeen strong dairy sector. would be severely affected. If, in the last year, we had I urge farmers to take advantage of growing global operated under the wind speed and temperature restrictions markets. The Department for International Trade is that are currently under consultation by the Scottish launching a new mentoring programme, providing expert Government, there would only have been two sailings advice on trading internationally. Farmers in the UK allowed from Orkney to Aberdeen. It is the law of good are leading the world in finding innovative farming intentions and unintended consequences in operation. methods to farm in climate-change friendly ways, with The people who designed the system, which is currently the NFU pledging an ambitious net zero target by 2040. regardedasbeingblue-chip,withindustry-leadingstandards, were the farmers at the turn of the century, and they are The UK beef industry is one of the most sustainable the people who should be involved in the recreation of in the world, with an extensive grass-based grazing that system now. system—not a cause of deforestation as in other countries, as my hon. Friend the Member for Tiverton and Honiton 3.5 pm (Neil Parish) said. The Committee on Climate Change found that the UK beef industry emits around half the Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con) greenhouse gases compared with the global average. [V]: It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, As my hon. Friend the Member for North Devon Ms Ghani. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member said, there are 278 million dairy cows worldwide. If they for North Devon (Selaine Saxby) on securing this timely were all managed as efficiently as UK dairy cows are, debate during Great British Beef Week. I draw attention we could shrink that number to 76 million and still to my declaration in the Register of Members’ Financial produce the same amount of milk throughout the world. Interests, as one of the few practising farmers in the Around 70% of the British herd is on grass, and 65% of House. UK farmland produces some of the most productive The Cotswolds has one of the most sensitive landscapes grass in the world. That protects the character and in the country and I have always proudly championed identity of the countryside and generates an important British agriculture. As a farmer who grew up on my income for rural communities. In the Cotswolds, which mother’s dairy farm, I know from first-hand experience I have the privilege to represent, the distinctive, attractive how the UK produces some of the highest quality food landscape would not be the same without the raising of produce of anywhere in the world, with exceptional livestock, including the production of high-quality lamb, animal welfare and environmental standards. much of which could be exported. As Britain secures new trade deals, we have the Here in the UK, there is nothing better for the opportunity to promote that high-quality meat and environmentally-conscious consumer who wants a balanced dairy produce across the world, produced by our innovative, diet than to buy British. Not only does buying fresh environmentally friendly farmers. After 40 years of the local produce reduce greenhouse emissions from European Union’s common agricultural policy, we can transporting produce; in addition the produce will be now pursue new trading relationships. It is an amazing sourced from farms with sustainability at the heart of opportunity to shape the future of our farming, promote their practices. It is good to see some retailers increasingly our interests and meet the needs and ambitions of British championing UK products. I know, because I did a lot consumers in the 21st century. of the shopping during the lockdown, that Waitrose In 2020, meat and dairy products combined accounted and Aldi have led the way on supporting British farmers for 2.2% of UK goods exports and 3.1% of all UK throughout the pandemic. I hope that other supermarket goods imports. The current trade deficit is found in all chains will be encouraged to follow their example. categories, apart from mutton and lamb, which has a In conclusion, farmers can now set their ambitions trade surplus of £0.1 billion. We now import roughly well beyond the UK into exciting new markets. As they 50% of all that we eat, down from 65% when I was a expand, they will have our full support in doing so. 147WH British Meat and Dairy Products28 APRIL 2021 British Meat and Dairy Products 148WH

3.11 pm I chair the all-party parliamentary group for eggs, Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I congratulate the pigs and poultry, and the British Egg Industry Council hon. Member for North Devon (Selaine Saxby) on set up a petition on change.org, to which there have setting the scene so well and giving us all an opportunity been some 20,000 signatures. Supermarkets should use to participate. I am tempted to use a pun and say that I British eggs for foods made in Britain and stop importing am pleased to have the opportunity to sow into the eggs. Research shows that, although consumers put debate. I declare an interest as a member of the Ulster their trust in British supermarkets to sell safe products Farmers Union and as a landowner. and be transparent about their sourcing, supermarkets My constituency is a strong farming community, and continue to use a significant number of imported eggs all my neighbours are involved in the milk, sheep and in pre-prepared foods. I think it is time that we all bought other sectors of the farming industry. One of the major British Lion eggs. I am old enough to remember that employers is a Lakeland Dairies factory. I am acutely advert on TV—“Go to work on an egg”. Well, every aware of the challenges facing the sector. The fact that day of my life, I go to work on two eggs. Seven days a Northern Ireland faces additional challenges because of week, I have two eggs for my breakfast. Incidentally, I the insidious Northern Ireland protocol makes life on have noticed in the Members’Tea Room that many others our side of the sea that wee bit more difficult. The hon. in this House do too. Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Neil Parish) mentioned A survey of 3,000 British shoppers on their attitudes that, and I am sure that other Members will. I must towards the use of eggs and egg ingredients by major again highlight the need for the triggering of article 16 retailers showed overwhelming support for the increased and an end to the hard border in the Irish sea. That use of British eggs. That is why I am backing British would definitely do away with all the problems that we farming, which has never been so important. The British face at present. egg industry is worth over £1.07 billion per year, and I am part of the movement that believes we can and employs 23,000 people both directly and indirectly. must do better with the stewardship of our environment. I will conclude on this Ms Ghani; you have been very However, there are few who know more about cause kind to me. We need to keep this vibrant industry and effect in the environment than the farmers who live vibrant, and we in this House have a role to play, not in it every day. I want to speak for the farmer, the person enforcing unattainable goals, but in supporting and who looks after and manages the land—who lives on rewarding best practice, which is standard practice in and loves the land, and whose very blood is in the land farms in every corner of my constituency, and indeed in he farms every day. We are increasingly coming across a every constituency throughout this great United Kingdom movement that seeks to blame the farming industry for of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. environmental issues throughout the world. What it Ms Nusrat Ghani (in the Chair): To get all the speakers claims is simply not the case. When the total 460 million in, I will have to enforce a time limit of under four minutes. tonnes of UK greenhouse gas emissions are broken down, cattle and sheep account for 5.7%. The whole of 3.16 pm UK agriculture was responsible for 10% of the UK’s David Warburton (Somerton and Frome) (Con): I total emissions. When grassland sequestration is taken congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for North into account the figure for cattle and sheep drops to Devon (Selaine Saxby) on securing this debate. Like her, 3.7%. Let us look at the reality of the stats. The farmer I am fortunate to represent a large rural west country is clearly not to blame. It is time to work with the constituency, although mine is in God’s own county of farming sector. I know that the Minister does that every Somerset. This debate gives me the opportunity to pay day of her life and we represent those areas in dealing tribute to Somerset’s farming community and farmers with the farmers in our constituencies, because we are in less fortunate areas. there to support them. This past year has presented farmers with unprecedented The hon. Member for North Devon referred to figures challenges. We all remember early in the pandemic on the efficiency of the dairy sector. They tell us all seeing empty supermarket shelves, and many people about how well the British farmer does his job. Our feared that we were going to run out of food. Farmers farmers know their responsibility, and they live it daily. rose to that challenge and enough food was produced to I want to speak for the farmers in my constituency, and overcome the fears and meet the demand, and our shelves those elsewhere, and commend them for their industrious were fully restocked. endeavours. As I travel through the glorious Somerset countryside, I read an interesting snippet in the National Farmers it is impossible not to marvel at the contribution that Union briefing. It was a statement by Dr Trevor Dines, farmers make to managing our landscape.The contribution a botanical specialist at Plantlife, on the publication of that livestock and dairy farmers make to our environment Plantlife research: is not fully appreciated. Meat and dairy production “Early succession habitats like hay meadows and permanent goes hand in hand with the sustainability of the landscape. pastures, grazed by the right amount of livestock at the right time, British farmers lead the world in agricultural standards, can support an astonishing 770 species of wild flower and are crucibles of biodiversity.” animal welfare and sustainable farming practices. Wow—that is something for people to take the time to This week is Great British Beef Week, and as the listen to, and I hope they will. It continued: focus this year is on sustainability, we should remember that the greenhouse gas footprint of UK milk production “Nearly 1,400 species of pollinators and other insects rely on species-rich grassland for their survival and they, in turn, support is just 40% of the global average. British beef and dairy a myriad of bird and animal life. Re-creation of these open are fully on track to being carbon neutral by 2040. habitats must be seen as a priority as urgent as planting trees.” The environmental contribution of livestock and dairy That is what farmers say and what they and landlords farming must not be overlooked, and neither must its do every day of their lives—365 days a year. enormous contribution to our rural economies, our way 149WH British Meat and Dairy Products28 APRIL 2021 British Meat and Dairy Products 150WH of life and brand Britain abroad, but the sector faces The UK has the fifth lowest use of on-farm antibiotics enormous challenges. Farmers are determined to grasp across the 31 European countries, beaten only by the the opportunities of Brexit, but many say they face Nordic countries, and that is due to their climate of growing problems with exporting to the EU, in particular cold and dry weather, which stops the bacteria from at the French border, where they are seeing outright breeding and therefore reduces the demand for antibiotics. inflexibility; they are not seeing the same at the approach The amount of antibiotics used on UK farms reduced to UK borders. I ask the Minister to explore and by 53% between 2014 and 2018. We really are leading implement ways to ease exports to the EU, which is the world in how we look after our animals, and in our obviously our largest agricultural export market. welfare standards. A number of steps are being taken The Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for on farms that are done in the best interests of the Trans-Pacific Partnership—hard to say, and probably animals, and are in line with expert advice and veterinary harder to put together—gives us a wealth of opportunity guidance. I also congratulate the UK meat and dairy across the Asian, American and Australasian continents, industry on its work on tackling emissions—we have with lucrative markets for our produce. That is great heard from various Members this afternoon how we news for dairy producers, and producers of cheeses, in have been doing that. British beef and lamb are among particular. I have some of the best in the world in my the most efficient and sustainable in the world, due to constituency,not least Wyke Farms, Barber’s, Montgomery our extensive grass-based systems. cheddar and Godminster. The trade agreement gives Livestock plays a key role in maintenance, as we have them the opportunity to reach Canada and Australia. been hearing, and in the enhancement of wildlife habitats. Producers can also send pork and poultry to Vietnam, Biodiversity would suffer hugely if the UK population beef to Japan and mutton to Malaysia. However, while became vegetarian and gave up meat. There are several Somerset’s farmers want trade partnerships, they do examples of where livestock is critical to the life cycle of not want them at the expense of food standards, and I wildlife: for instance, the large blue butterfly, which know there are concerns about any opening of the UK breeds in warm and well-drained grassland. Livestock to cheaper, lower-quality imports. plays a key role in producing the suitable habitat through The Government can do a little more to support grazing, and if we gave up meat, suddenly that would farming in achieving net zero by 2040. Many farmers not happen at all. are now installing green energy plants to provide green I am always encouraged when shoppers look to buy electricity, but one farm in my patch tells me that the local, sustainably produced meat and dairy products, rating value of its green energy plant has doubled in a and most retailers are now increasingly sourcing year, so I ask the Government to look at the rating British products to meet this demand. The UK is system for green energy plants. We have to incentivise around 85% self-sufficient in dairy production, as we them and keep a level playing field, because certainty is have heard, and 75% self-sufficient in beef production. a rare commodity in meat and dairy production, and Significantly, more than 11,000 dairy farmers and more over the past few years, of course, it has been harder than 23,600 beef and sheep producers in the UK are than ever for the sector to have any kind of clarity. I members of the Red Tractor scheme, and when shoppers hope the Government see that and continue to act in a buy British red meat and dairy products carrying the way that smooths the path and gives our farmers clear Red Tractor logo, they can be confident that those sight of the future. The future is bright, but these are products are produced to world-leading environmental dark times, and we have to light the way with clarity. and animal welfare standards for the whole length of the food chain, from farm to packet. The supermarkets are starting to move in the right direction. We have a 3.20 pm huge number of farm shops in Cornwall, of which I would like to mention a few in my constituency: Cusgarne Cherilyn Mackrory (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): It is near Truro, Curgurrell near Portscatho, and Trudgian a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Ghani, in Probus. Not only do they buy local meat, so people and I thank my hon. Friend the Member for North can literally see the animals grazing in the fields before Devon (Selaine Saxby) for having secured this afternoon’s they buy meat for their family to consume; they also debate. As the MP for Truro and Falmouth in Cornwall, support smaller producers. it is unsurprising that farming plays a huge role for The Minister will not be surprised that I am making a people in my constituency, and this is a great opportunity call to ensure that the same encouragement and clout to stand up for our many hard-working farmers, farm from Government goes into buying British fish—she workers and local supply chains. knew I was going to say that. This has been a very It is not surprising that the English MPs in the room difficult time for Cornish farmers and fishermen, who this afternoon are mostly south-west and west country rely on their local outlets as well as on the supermarkets. MPs. The National Farmers’ Union states that the Another hon. Member spoke about supermarket price south-west’s livestock farms account for almost a third points; it is really important that farmers and fishermen of all the dairy and beef farms in England, and over a make a good living out of this. I am not— fifth of all the sheep and lamb. British red meat and dairy has a great story to tell, and farmers can be very Ms Nusrat Ghani (in the Chair): Order. You have gone proud of having some of the highest welfare and over your time limit; forgive me, but we have to move on. environmental sustainability standards in the world. What is better to eat than Cornish cattle that has been 3.25 pm grazing in the sea air on beautiful pastureland, making Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): It is a great wonderful beef, clotted cream, and beautiful Cornish pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for the first ice cream in Callestick, for example, near Perranporth time, Ms Ghani. I congratulate my colleague and fellow in my constituency? south-west Great British Beef Week love-in leader, my 151WH British Meat and Dairy Products28 APRIL 2021 British Meat and Dairy Products 152WH

[Richard Graham] producing food of such amazing quality for us to buy and consume. Cornwall is particularly renowned for its hon. Friend the Member for North Devon (Selaine Saxby). dairy—Rodda’s clotted cream, which is located in the I speak not as a rural MP standing up for his constituent Secretary of State’s constituency, and our amazing cheese farmers, but as an urban representative for the city of —as well as for its beef, lamb and pork. Much of it goes Gloucester and its 100,000 consumers, and as the Prime to support our hospitality and tourism sector, and the Minister’s trade envoy for much of south-east Asia and quality of food available in Cornwall is one of the things its regional organisation, the Association of Southeast driving our tourism sector. People want to come to Asian Nations. The two things come together very well. Cornwall not only for our amazing beaches and countryside, I relate strongly to my hon. Friend’s calls to buy local. but because of the amazing food we produce. Clearly, There can be no argument at all, at least among the six farmers have faced huge challenges in recent times, but Gloucestershire MPs, that the finest beef is from Gloucester they have faced those challenges head on, which just cattle—just as Single Gloucester cheese, made only from goes to show the resilience within our farming sector. It Gloucester cows, is one of our great cheeses. At this has managed to do that over the past year during the time of year, as all colleagues will know, a great round pandemic and has adapted to a rapidly changing market. Single Gloucester cheese is normally to be found rolling Regrettably, as has been reflected in the debate, farming down the steepest stopes of Coopers Edge in the great, is sometimes presented as part of the problem in protecting globally renowned cheese-rolling competition pursued our environment, when in fact nothing could be further by 100-odd enthusiasts or lunatics. So yes, let us buy local from the truth. British farming is among the most and buy quality. sustainable forms of farming anywhere in the world. Let me focus on the export of British beef to south-east Some of the facts and figures quoted by colleagues Asia in general and Indonesia in particular. Demand in reflect that. Farmers are the custodians of our environment. Indonesia—a nation of 270 million people, predominantly They rely on our natural environment for everything Muslims—is growing by 7% a year, and 70% of the that they do, so of course they want to protect it and roughly £650 million-a-year market is imports, mostly care for it in the best possible way. Many of our farms from Australia and India, so there is an opportunity for are generational. Farms are passed down from one us, but there are four questions. First, is there potential generation to another, so of course the farmers care for Indonesian demand for British beef? Secondly, is there them because they want to be able to pass them on to potential export capacity here? Thirdly, is our halal their children and grandchildren. certification process compatible with Indonesia’slegislation Very often there is an unfair message that eating meat and approval process? Fourthly, is halal beef a sector is a major contributor to emissions and carbon footprint, that we want to pursue with other potential markets in which is simply not true. Much of our farmland is Malaysia and the middle east? If that is all possible, we suitable only for grazing livestock. We could not grow have an opportunity. We may need to pursue a free other food on it, and if we did not produce meat from trade agreement to make our prices competitive with that farmland, we would end up importing more food, friendly Australian and Kiwi farmers. which would increase the carbon footprint as well. As so often, these questions cross departmental There is much greater awareness today—it has increased boundaries, but the Department for Environment, Food over the past 12 months—of where our food comes and Rural Affairs and the Department for International from, which can only be a good thing. One thing I Trade have worked closely on many issues. Today, in would like us to do with the new freedoms that we have Great British Beef Week, I look forward to hearing the since leaving the EU is to have better labelling of where view of our excellent Minister on whether the enthusiasm our good British food comes from, and let us encourage and capacity of our farmers for halal beef exports are everyone to buy as local as they possibly can. strong, and whether we can resolve the certification question. 3.31 pm Bob Seely (Isle of Wight) (Con): It is a pleasure to Ms Nusrat Ghani (in the Chair): Thank you, Mr Graham serve under your chairmanship, Ms Ghani. I congratulate —that was mouth-watering. my hon. Friend the Member for North Devon (Selaine Saxby) on organising this debate. In the four minutes 3.27 pm that I have I want to talk about agriculture on the Isle of Steve Double (St Austell and Newquay) (Con): It is a Wight and then discuss with the Minister, through you, pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Ghani. Ms Ghani, how we can use the Agriculture Act 2020 for I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for North the benefit of all of us, but very much for the Island. Devon (Selaine Saxby) on securing this excellent debate. I have noticed that a lot of us are talking about I declare an interest: I married a farmer’s daughter, and carbon and being responsible about animal rearing, but most of my family on her side are farmers across Cornwall, can we not use some of the incredible science in our the Isles of Scilly and—I say it quietly—even Devon. It country to breed cattle that produce less methane and—dare is great to see so many colleagues from the south-west—we I say it?—pass wind less? Then we might have less of a just about include my hon. Friend the Member for carbon problem. I just put that out there. Perhaps the Gloucester (Richard Graham) in that. That representation Minister will think about that. I am happy to suggest reflects how important farming is to our communities the Island for a pilot scheme. It would be great. We have and our economy across the south-west. lots of fresh air on the Island, anyway, and would have Weshould be proud of our livestock and dairy farmers, even more so with that idea. who not only produce some of the finest-quality produce The Island has a fantastic reputation for producing to be found anywhere in the world, but maintain the some of the best food in Britain, although, clearly, there highest animal welfare and environmental standards. It is a lot of stiff competition. Briddlesford farm makes is no mean feat to operate at such high standards while some of the best feta outside Greece. Calbourne Classics 153WH British Meat and Dairy Products28 APRIL 2021 British Meat and Dairy Products 154WH makes some of the best yoghurt in the country. I am yet face. The challenges in the meat and dairy sector have to taste better fillet steak than that produced by Andrew their roots in last spring, when we should have seen the Hodgson in the beautiful Bowcombe valley, and Queen emergence of new demand. Instead, we saw the eruption Bower Dairy regularly produces fantastic soft cheeses of a global pandemic, which decimated the hospitality and blue-veined cheeses. Isle of Wight tomatoes are and food service sector overnight. very well known, to say nothing of all the lobster, crab and asparagus that we produce. Efforts were made to ensure that domestic demand, which rose sharply, would take up surplus commercial However, as the Minister knows, because she has supply but, in reality, commercial food packaging and been kind enough to discuss this with me, we have some products made it incompatible with retail distribution issues. Living on an island, I perhaps share some concerns processes and consumer tastes. Where we saw a glut of with the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland T-bone and fillet steaks, consumers were at the same (Mr Carmichael). Orkney has an abattoir. we do not. time rushing out to buy mince. It was not just carcass Our abattoir closed down a couple of decades ago. To balance issues that affected our producers. It was cheese, take cattle for slaughter is an extra £70 per head of milk and yogurt, in large commercial containers with cattle. I am therefore very interested in the mobile limited outlet into retail. abattoir scheme that the Minister discussed. I know it is being used in Gloucestershire at the moment. We would It was against that crisis that many of us called for an be extremely interested in having that on the Island extension to the transition period last year,also recognising because it would be extremely useful and valuable and that the transition period was really no such thing. The would help to create a circular economy so that not only UK Government advertised to businesses to get ready could we have a more sustainable agriculture on the for exiting the single market and customs union, but Island by reducing the costs of slaughter and potentially were pretty sketchy on exactly how they could get ready make it more competitive, but it would make it more to do that. Without a meaningful transition period, a competitive when sending to the mainland as well because soft start, room for manoeuvre or margin for error, UK of that Isle of Wight brand. meat and dairy exporters were thrown off a bureaucratic In a similar vein, we would be keen to explore the use and procedural cliff on 1 January. of grants for other shared things for items on the Island such as tanker and extra milk storage facilities, new The dairy industry was especially hard hit, with exports grain storage, central fertiliser storage, animal feed milling to the EU down 96%, with beef, lamb, mutton and facilities, and box erectors. All those things can make chicken exports collectively losing £50 million in EU Isle of Wight agriculture not only more profitable—that sales. Many hon. Members have talked about the is almost the wrong word—but can add more value to opportunities to export to wider markets. That is great, what we do. We would potentially keep more profit on but it should not come at the cost to existing markets. the Island. As various Members have said, when people The Food and Drink Federation report has shown that go to a supermarket they buy stuff that may be produced Scottish exports have been hit hardest, down 16%, with here or elsewhere in the European Union. I share the Wales 3.9% and Northern Ireland 7%. The British Meat calls for better food labelling, because I will always try Processors Association Brexit-impact report insists that to buy local if I can. blaming that on teething problems is no longer credible, if it ever was. The more that we can produce a local economy, so that Gloucestershire becomes even more proud of its Collateral damage threatens our producers and their produce, likewise the Isle of Wight, Kent and Sussex, suppliers. I recently met with the Agricultural Industries that is the way that we can help local agriculture, and Confederation to discuss the challenges in the agri-supply almost compete among ourselves. We keep forgetting, sector. Exiting the EU was top of their list. New tariffs as has been pointed out, we have some of the most for importing molasses for livestock feed, caused by an extraordinary food production in the world. Sometimes error in the UK global tariff, mean that there is now a we do ourselves down and think that something that higher tariff here than in the EU, which is expected to comes from Italy or France is better, when often it is add £1 million to £1.2 million in extra costs to UK not. I hope it will continue to be the case that we can producers, all undermining our competitiveness. DEFRA push and get more value for UK produce. I will leave it is aware of this but, to date, there is no resolution. Nor there, but I look forward to discussing these matters is there a DEFRA resolution to issues affecting processed with the Minister in due course. animal protein and the export health certificates that are now required to export those products from GB to 3.35 pm Northern Ireland. Perhaps the Minister might want to Dave Doogan (Angus) (SNP): It is a pleasure to serve discuss that in her summing up. Staying with Northern under your chairmanship, Ms Ghani. I congratulate the Ireland, as the president of the Ulster Farmers Union, hon. Member for North Devon (Selaine Saxby) on Victor Chestnutt, pointed out to the Environment, Food securing today’s debate. As the Member for Angus, one and Rural Affairs Committee last week, Stirling bull of Scotland’s most productive areas, it is a pleasure to sales in Scotland are vital for pedigree breeding and sum up for the SNP and to add the Scottish dimension exchanging genetics. In 2019, 120 bulls from 37 Northern to issues raised by Members from around these islands. Ireland exhibitors showed at Stirling; by 2021 just four In Great British Beef Week, let us all collectively bulls were exhibited at Stirling from three Northern acknowledge that there is no finer beef than Aberdeen Ireland exhibitors. That is because when Northern Ireland Angus. I look forward to the Minister confirming that farmers take a bull to GB and it does not sell, they need in her summing up. to pay for six months of residency before they can take I am fully signed up to supporting and promoting it back to Northern Ireland. That madness is a disaster British produce, but I will not be dissuaded from for sales and for breeding, and it is also a problem for highlighting the current challenges that our producers Carlisle sales. 155WH British Meat and Dairy Products28 APRIL 2021 British Meat and Dairy Products 156WH

[Dave Doogan] trade with Europe down more than 90% for certain products compared with a year earlier. Cheese exports I want to touch on a comment from James Withers, were down 75%, whey 83%, milk powder 86%, and of Scotland Food and Drink, who said butter exports were down 89%. Be in no doubt that it is “It’s become clear that the EU third country import system tough for many. We know it is particularly hard for was never designed for a country on its doorstep, integrated into small independent producers. If it is hard to sell to the its supply chains, sending large volumes of highly perishable EU, meat and dairy farmers face a challenge to their product and smaller, consolidated volumes. In the end, the industry incomes. and consumer here want to maintain standards so let’s agree to align with our EU partners. Otherwise, the rug will be pulled from The Minister and I have been discussing changes to a significant chunk of the £1.2 billion of annual Scottish food farm support for a long time. A new analysis by the exports for little, if any, benefit.” Labour party shows that rural England stands to lose The UK Government have in its power to support our more than £255 million this year alone. That translates meat and dairy sector through the Brexit carnage. I fully to as many as 9,500 agricultural jobs, and that will only commend the innovation and energy with which our get worse year on year. Of course, the schemes are still meat and dairy producers feed our communities and being designed, tested and piloted, as we have discussed contribute to our economy, but let us not uphold any on numerous occasions, but farmers are rightly concerned notion that everything is going invariably well. It is not. by the gap between the existing basic payment scheme Those producers and the wider supply chains rely on being phased out and the environmental land management EU exports, but exporting meat and dairy to the EU scheme. According to an analysis of DEFRA data by and Northern Ireland is harder now than ever. Let us all the Country Land and Business Association, 75% of at least acknowledge that. farming enterprises are currently unprofitable without direct payments.According to a recent survey of landowners 3.41 pm and farmers by the CLA, 76% fear that the new payments will not be sufficient. Daniel Zeichner (Cambridge) (Lab): It is a pleasure It is hard to sell into the EU, support is being withdrawn to serve with you in the Chair, Ms Ghani. I congratulate and, frankly, British meat is still open to being undercut the hon. Member for North Devon (Selaine Saxby) on in trade deals. As we have repeatedly said, the Government securing this timely debate. These are vital industries should have put the protection of food and farming that are crucial to our food security, to tackling climate standards into law,but they have not. Without re-rehearsing and nature emergencies. They proved remarkably resilient the arguments made today, deals are currently being through the pandemic. I pay tribute to all those involved: negotiated. UK campaign groups have raised repeated farmers, processors, retailers and shop workers. But I concerns over meat production in Australia and New think one or two contributions have been a touch Zealand, and the Government’s consultation on a rose-tinted, because it is really tough out there. prospective UK-Australia deal highlighted concerns about Last week, I joined the shadow Secretary of State, my Australia’s farming practices, such as hormone injections hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Sutton and in beef, excessive use of antibiotics in food production, Devonport (Luke Pollard) in launching Labour’s rural high rates of food poisoning and lower standards of review, on a family farm in Cambridgeshire. Thanks to animal welfare, including continued use of sow stalls. the excellent organisation by the National Farmers Just last week, however, the Secretary of State for Union, we heard from a real mix of farms. It is very International Trade was lauding their high standards in hard out there. With the changes to farm support, it is the main Chamber. Frankly, it should be obvious that obvious that some—perhaps many—will not survive. British farming will be sold out. The Trade and Agriculture We have repeatedly warned that that is exactly what the Commission, which the Government conceded under Government’s Agricultural Act 2020, allied with the pressure, has reported that there has been no response refusal to rule out undercutting through lower trade from the Government. Can the Minister tell us when we standard imports, was designed to do. We will fight that will get it, and will they adopt the recommended standards all the way. We are delighted to support Great British framework? Beef Week. There is much more to be said, but let me move on to I must point out just how interconnected but we still one of the potential solutions: public procurement. are with the European Union. EU countries have accounted Supporting British farming means buying more British for 70% of meat exports, 77% of dairy exports, as well produce, which means looking at the public sector and as 83% of meat imports and 99% of dairy imports. the £2.4 billion a year spent on catering, and thinking Sadly, the rushed botched deal at the end of the year about how more can be spent with British farmers. has left us facing really serious problems, not least in Government Buying Standards for Food and Catering achieving carcase balance. The latest statistics from the Services, or GBSF, provide helpful guidelines, but these Office for National Statistics show that exports of food are not being applied in too many parts of our public and live animals were down about 31% on January and services. That is hardly surprising, given the cost pressures February 2020. In absolute value terms, exports of meat that they face, but that is why leadership is required. and meat preparations to the EU were particularly In such circumstances, who better to turn to than the affected—down 52%. That is a systemic issue. EFRA Committee? As usual, its Chair, the hon. Member The British Meat Processors Association has warned for Tiverton and Honiton (Neil Parish), made his thoughtful that the industry is now facing a potential permanent and well-considered contribution earlier, but the loss of up to half of its exports. For dairy, exports Committee’s recent report urged the Government to remained at drastically low levels in February, according update their buying standards for food into the new to recent figures published by the Agriculture and decade, address outdated standards on nutrition and Horticulture Development Board. The figures, drawn animal welfare, and close loopholes in the current from Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs data, show rules. The report also expresses disappointment that the 157WH British Meat and Dairy Products28 APRIL 2021 British Meat and Dairy Products 158WH

Government do not use the GBSF as a mechanism to future. I look forward to working with everyone in the promote buying British within the public sector, as is industry to achieve that. I am delighted to have had the norm within public bodies in countries such as France. the opportunity to take part in this important debate. Let me say a word about two specific sectors. There is insufficient time to do justice to lamb and poultry, but 3.50 pm there are a range of issues affecting dairy. We all hope that the new dairy code of conduct will be successful TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof StateforEnvironment, and ensure the fairness that many people feel has been Food and Rural Affairs (Victoria Prentis): It is a great lacking. We will be watching closely, but I fear that it pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Ghani, may have to be revisited yet again. There are also and to take part in this debate secured by my hon. workforce challenges. A recent survey by the Royal Friend the Member for North Devon (Selaine Saxby). Association of British Dairy Farmers has revealed that British meat and dairy products have a really good almost one third of dairy farmers would consider leaving reputation for quality, built on high animal welfare the industry due to a lack of labour, with 63% of dairy standards, strong environmental protections, traceability farmers struggling to recruit in the past five years. On and sustainability.This Government will always support their behalf, can I ask the Minister whether DEFRA is our farmers and producers, not only during Great British considering supporting the inclusion of dairy technicians Beef Week. in the next review of the Migratory Advisory Committee’s It is great to be in a room full of such enthusiasts for shortage of occupation list? their own local products. I will not, however, judge I turn now to the pig sector, which has had a really between Angus cattle and South Devon cattle, both of hard time. It is not all the fault of the Minister on this which we have kept at home. Other products are available occasion—there is African swine fever in China, a surfeit and are kept by the farmers in the constituencies of of cheap pork in Europe and skyrocketing feed costs—but those in this room. It is good to hear the enthusiasm in it is disappointing to hear that the percentage of British the room for buying local, buying sustainable and buying pork on the shelves has fallen in two of our major British. It is encouraging that, despite the challenges of supermarkets, which is not helpful. Alarming figures the pandemic, and aside from the recent difficulties in suggest that specialist pig farms are expecting to see the pig sector, generally our meat and dairy markets an 80% decline in average income between 2019-20 to remain relatively strong, with good prices for milk, 2020-21. The National Pig Association has described it poultry, beef and especially lamb, which has been at as a perfect storm. 10-year highs since the beginning of this year. Some of the problems were indeed down to the I will not have time to respond to every issue raised, post-Brexit export problems caused by the Government, but I briefly mention the Chairman of the Select Committee, but at its peak, a backlog of 100,000 pigs awaiting my hon. Friend the Member for Tiverton and Honiton slaughter were housed in temporary accommodation (Neil Parish), who raised the problem of re-tagging on UK farms, which pushed up carcase weights and led animals moving from GB to NI. This is not required, as to swingeing price discounts imposed by processers. I I am sure he knows, for animals going for slaughter understand that the pig sector has approached the only, but rather for breeding animals. We are aware of Government to call for sector-specific support, as was the burdens on those moving livestock and are working delivered to dairy farmers at the start of the pandemic, closely with the Department of Agriculture, Environment and I would be grateful to hear what consideration the and Rural Affairs where we can to try to minimise those Minister is giving to that request. issues taking place at the moment. Let me finally mention our biggest challenge of all: We heard about a desire to buy British from many climate and nature. We very much welcome the National Members, and about the commitment that some of our Farmers Union’s commitment to reach net zero by supermarkets have shown to selling British-sourced meat 2040, and we want to see more support for farmers to and dairy products. I was grateful to be able to speak to reduce their emissions. That is why it is so important many representatives from our supermarkets on a call that we get ELM right and make it accessible in good last week, specifically, in fact, about pork. The right time. British agriculture has to be on the front foot and hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael) continue to demonstrate positive progress. We will work made a thoughtful speech about the interrelationships with farmers to do anything that we can, and we recognise in the rural supply chain. My hon. Friend the Member the efforts that are being made. Be it the dairy road map for Truro and Falmouth (Cherilyn Mackrory) was keen or Arla’s climate checks initiative, we can see people to support farm shops and, as ever, the fishing industry working hard throughout the farming and processing sector in her constituency in doing more direct selling to to get the advances that we all need. customers. There are indeed many paths to a sustainable future. We are really ambitious, as a Government. We had a A report from the Food, Farming and Countryside manifesto commitment that we want people at home Commission in January made a powerful case for an and abroad lining up to buy British. We are working agroecological approach that many will find attractive. closely with the AHDB, and Members may have noticed Finally, we await part 2 of Henry Dimbleby’s report with that we had a number of successful campaigns during keen interest. The country should not have gone without the pandemic, including Milk Your Moments, which is a food strategy for a decade. It will be fascinating to see slightly more modern but just as good as that mentioned how palatable the Government find his recommendations. by the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon)—“Go Will the Minister tell us when we can expect it? to work on an egg”. We believe that the meat and dairy industries, with On trade, the successful conclusion of negotiations the right support and help, will play a key role in with the EU with a deal, ratified only yesterday, based achieving the necessary climate and nature targets in the on zero tariffs and zero quotas means that we can now 159WH British Meat and Dairy Products28 APRIL 2021 British Meat and Dairy Products 160WH

[Victoria Prentis] Nor is it sensible to import feeds grown in ways that are damaging to the global environment just to fit our develop new relationships with our trading partners in targets—[Interruption.] I will not give way, I have a the EU and globally. We are keen to grow our markets great deal to get through—I apologise. New feeds will through the Department for International Trade’s new be of a real benefit, and good work is being done to Open Doors campaign and increased market support understand ruminant digestion and target both nutrition and help in this area. We have a great agreement with use and reduce methane emissions. Japan, which opens the Japanese market to UK exports We must be honest about possible trade-offs with of lamb and beef for the first time in two decades. animal welfare when we have this debate. We need to do It was good to hear the level of ambition from the further work on the use of nitrogen fertilizers and Cotswolds, represented so ably by a farmer, my hon. nitrogen fixing mixes in grass. It was interesting to hear Friend the Member for The Cotswolds (Sir Geoffrey my hon. Friend the Member for Tiverton and Honiton Clifton-Brown); from my hon. Friend the Member for talking passionately about herbal leys, which I would Gloucester (Richard Graham), who spoke specifically echo if I had longer. Carbon sequestered by hedgerows about the Indonesian market—I will follow up with him and on farm woodland can help meet our targets, directly on some of the points he raised; and from my though some of that will not be recognised for many hon. Friend the Member for Somerton and Frome (David years. It must be recognised that well-managed livestock Warburton), who particularly mentioned the cheese that provides huge benefits, such as supporting biodiversity, he is keen to export. protecting the character of some of our most beautiful The Government are clear,to reassure the hon. Member landscapes,and creating employment for rural communities. for Upper Bann (Carla Lockhart) and other Members, It provides important nutrition as well, and we must that we are not compromising on the UK’s high remember that food is at the heart of what we do. environmental protection, animal welfare and food safety Werecognise the delicate balance between these outcomes standards. The strong British reputation for our food is and the potential environmental trade-offs, and will ensure the basis on which we intend to sell our produce, both at that decision making is evidence led, but takes into home and abroad. account the full sweep of trade-offs. On other points—my hon. Friend the Member for I need to let the hon. Lady finish the debate, but I will Isle of Wight (Bob Seely) mentioned the possibility of say briefly that, despite the views of the Opposition looking at a mobile abattoir scheme. I have spoken to spokesman, the hon. Member for Cambridge (Daniel him about that before, and am keen to do so again. We Zeichner), targeted support for our farmers is definitely are piloting such a scheme, and look forward to learning the way to go. Paying people for public goods is a much from that and if it is appropriate to roll out more widely. better way of optimising the environmental solutions A number of Members, including my hon. Friend the than merely sticking with CAP. Henry Dimbleby will Member for St Austell and Newquay (Steve Double), report in July. We look forward to a major conversation spoke about labelling—an important issue for all the across the country about buying British, buying local food we sell. Wespent time this morning on a complicated and buying sustainable, and all other aspects of food Statutory Instrument on changes to labelling. We will production, until the Government’s response in December talk more about that this year as we go into consultation to his report. This has been a great debate, and I thank on labelling, and I encourage him to get involved. hon. Members for taking part. On the environment, the PM has declared that tackling 3.59 pm climate change and preserving biodiversity is the UK’s number one foreign policy priority. He saw this first Selaine Saxby: I thank the Minister for her response, hand when he visited a livestock farm in Derbyshire last and hon. and right hon. Members for their contributions. week. Achieving net zero for 2050 is an absolute priority It is good to see widespread support for British meat for this Government. We were the first major economy and dairy farmers, as well as the Government’s to bring this target into law, and this is just the beginning. environmental goals. The debate has recognised the We acknowledge the ambition of the farming industry importance of our global, as well as local markets for in this space, and have great examples of UK dairy our fantastic British produce. I am sure today’s debate companies and others leading the way on this. There is has whetted our appetites, and we cannot wait to dash a great deal that the livestock sector can, and will do, to out and buy something British for our evening meal. help move towards these ambitious targets. Question put and agreed to. As many Members have said, we have one of the Resolved, most efficient and sustainable systems of livestock in That this House has considered British meat and dairy products. the world. Reducing production of our own, increasingly carbon efficient products, and importing less carbon 4pm efficient products from overseas, is clearly not the solution. Sitting suspended. 161WH 28 APRIL 2021 Online Scams: Consumer Protection 162WH

Online Scams: Consumer Protection Victims lost more than £78 million to clone scams in 2020. It is hard to put those sorts of figures in the context of individuals, but the average loss for victims is 4.5 pm about £45,000. That could be the deposit for someone’s Ms Nusrat Ghani (in the Chair): I remind hon. Members home, the money that they were saving to start their that there have been some changes to normal practice in own business or expand it, or savings for retirement or order to support the new hybrid arrangements. Members to pass on to their children. But it is gone, and often need to clean their spaces before they use them and with no compensation. before they leave the room. I also remind Members that Fortunately, in the end, my constituents, Mr and Mr Speaker has stated that masks should be worn in Mrs Biggs, were compensated. That was not without a Westminster Hall throughout the debate. fight and the resulting stress and anxiety. Many other victims are not compensated. In 2018, The Telegraph, Ruth Edwards (Rushcliffe) (Con): I beg to move, which has done some really excellent work on this issue, That this House has considered protecting consumers from reported that, in the previous year, only 25% of the online scams. funds lost to authorised push payment or APP scams, It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, in which the victim transfers money to the bank account Ms Ghani. of the criminal, were successfully returned to victims. Last year, my constituents Mr and Mrs Biggs came to These figures are shocking, before we even take into see me at one of my constituency surgeries. They were account the immense psychological and emotional toll asking for my help because scammers had stolen £30,000 on victims and their families. Scammers take advantage of their savings. How had that happened? Well, a friend of people’s fears, hopes and anxieties, and they motivate of theirs had spotted an advert on Google for a bond them to transfer large sums of money on this basis. that, when compared with other products on the market, Anyone who has helped a victim of these crimes knows seemed to offer a reasonable rate of return over a how heart-wrenching the ordeal is for them. The feeling three-year period. They called the telephone line provided of anxiety and powerlessness experienced when pleading to discuss the product further. The bond was being with banks and law enforcement to help recover life offered by a reputable firm, Goldman Sachs, and it was savings is a tremendous unseen harm caused by online advertised on Google, which presumably had done its scams. due diligence before accepting the advert, so my constituents Recent analysis by consumer champion Which? found invested. Only it was not Goldman Sachs that they had that there are 300 to 350 fraud reports every week in invested with, and the bond did not exist. Instead, which victims show signs of severe emotional distress. Mr and Mrs Biggs, like many people up and down the One such account from Which? details the case of an country, had become victims of a very convincing clone 80-year-old gentleman who could not sleep for weeks scam. They had transferred £30,000 into the bank account after losing his retirement savings to scammers. The of the perpetrators of that scam. person behind the scam pretended to be a real investment Clone scams exploit people’s trust in reputable brands company,assuming the name of a real investment manager by carefully mimicking their websites and online presence at that company, and ultimately stole £50,000 from the and even researching and impersonating their sales victim, even after he checked their credentials online. managers. When they also carry the stamp of an advert, This scam, like the others I have mentioned, began as be that on Google, Facebook or any other online platform, an advert at the top of Google’s search results. TV, print many consumers believe that the platform carrying the and radio advertising are all governed by a comprehensive advert has checked out the company that posted it and set of rules, yet very little exists to govern online advertising. that therefore it is an official advert from the company The majority of people now go online to research and in question. But the truth is that that is rarely the case, buy everything, from pensions to pet food, holidays to because online platforms currently have no legal obligations houses, shoes to savings products, but it is for each to protect users against fake or fraudulent content, and individual platform to decide what, if any, verification that is the primary issue that I would like to address in checks it wants to make on businesses taking out adverts the debate today. on its service. In the last 18 months, we have been living through a I do not mean to imply that platforms are doing public health emergency, but the pandemic has also had nothing. Following ongoing discussions with the Financial a really profound effect on the way adversaries operate Conduct Authority, Google, for example, has updated online. We have seen everything: nation state espionage its financial services policy to make financial services on vaccine programmes, the spread of misinformation advertisers subject to its business operations verification and a huge increase in online scams. We have seen fake process. I followed the link that Google provided in its personal protective equipment, and phishing sites posing letter to the FCA to understand more about what the as councils giving out covid grants, or sending fake verification process entails. The policy states: messages about parcel deliveries to try to download “Advertisers may be selected to complete business operations software on to victims’ phones or to direct them to give verification if, for example, the advertising behavior has been their bank details to scammers. It shows how sophisticated identified as unclear or their ad content is deemed as potentially the world of online scams has become, how fast criminals misleading. can adapt to new situations and how easy it is for people Advertisers whose accounts were suspended due to a violation to be taken in. of our Google Ads policies may also be requested to undergo business operations verification as part of the account suspension Action Fraud figures show that, in the year to June appeals and remediation process. 2020, 85% of all fraud was cyber-enabled. Reports of Advertisers who are required to complete business operations clone scams increased by nearly 30% between March verification will be notified and given 21 days to submit the and April—just in the space of a month—last year. verification form. In certain circumstances, we may pause advertisers’ 163WH Online Scams: Consumer Protection28 APRIL 2021 Online Scams: Consumer Protection 164WH

[Ruth Edwards] I will briefly tackle the issue of compensation for victims, which is, at the moment, a minefield. In my accounts immediately when business operations verification is constituency, I have seen cases involving victims who initiated. This means that advertisers’ ads will not be able to serve have found it incredibly difficult to make their claim until they are able to complete the program successfully. heard by their bank, prolonging the painful battle to Advertiser accounts may be paused if the advertiser’s business recoup their losses. Those people are forced into a model is unclear and we suspect that their advertising or business position in which the odds of a successful outcome are practices may cause physical or monetary harm to users. Non- exhaustive examples include: misrepresenting yourself in your ad low,and they often emerge at the other end with a growing content; offering financial products or services under false pretences; distrust for our regulatory system. or offering unauthorized customer support services on behalf of The Financial Ombudsman Service website puts it third parties. very clearly: Once the verification form is completed and reviewed by “When it comes to payments that customers have authorised Google, advertiser’s accounts that do not meet the requirements themselves, the starting point at law is that their bank won’t be of this verification program outlined below will be suspended liable for the customer’s loss, even when it’s the result of a scam.” with a 7 day notice period. Note that if any further clarification We might say, “Fair enough. It is not the bank that’s at or information submitted to Google during this 7 day notice period is insufficient to verify the account, Google may suspend fault. They are merely acting on the instructions of the account immediately.” their customer.” What about the companies who expose So, Google “may” carry out checks, or they may not. users to those fraudulent ads, however? Those companies They “may”pause the adverts at the start of the verification actually target the adverts at users based on their interests, process, or they may not. Advertisers “may” get 21 days and make billions from doing so. Are we honestly leeway before proper checks are completed. Advertisers saying they should have no liability, and that there found not to meet the requirements of the verification should be no redress for users who are targeted with ads process will have seven days to provide further information placed by criminals? How can that be fair? to verify the account. If they cannot provide that, We urgently need to tackle the issue of online financial Google “may”decide to suspend the account immediately, harms. I asked the Home Secretary about this matter but presumably they also may not. I know politicians when she gave evidence to the Home Affairs Committee. are often accused of using non-committal language and She said: trying to evade a straight answer, but this is a masterclass. “We are actually doing some work right now through the It might be time that we in this place send the strong economic crime board that I chair with the Chancellor—I chaired signal that that approach is not enough to protect our it just last week. If you speak to many financial regulators and to the financial services sector, they are equally concerned about constituents, who are definitely being scammed out of this. One of the key outcomes that we are now discussing and their life savings. picking up across Government is: how are we going to make the If a verification process is to be effective, it needs to online harms Bill much stronger, and how are we going to tackle take place before any adverts are served. Leaving them many of these online advertising platforms that come up through up for 21 days while checks are completed provides a search engines, social media and other forms of electronic free-for-all for scammers. An experiment undertaken communications? last year by Which? shows why. It created a fake water We still have a way to go, but what I can say—and I am very grateful to colleagues in the Treasury on this as well—is that the brand, Remedii, and an accompanying online service level of focus and attention to this issue definitely means that it offering pseudo health and hydration advice, called will be given a huge push, a significant push, because, quite Natural Hydration. It advertised both using Facebook frankly,economic crime is now becoming one of the most predominant and Google. Which? reported that challenges when it comes to law enforcement but also criminality.” “With barely any checking, Google promoted ads for our I could not agree with her more. website and fake mineral water to users who searched for popular I would be grateful for an update from the Minister on terms, such as ‘bottled water’. Our ads gained nearly 100,000 impressions over a month.” how the Government propose to tackle the issue. Will financial harms become part of the online harms Bill as That shows how fast fake ads can reach a wide audience. the FCA, the Financial Services Compensation Scheme A lot of damage can be done in 21 days. and Which? are asking for it to be? If not, will she set Just this week, in a user survey published by Which?, out what they plan to do instead? In either case, can she a third of victims who reported a fraudulent ad on go any further towards providing a timetable for action? Google said that the advert was not taken down by the search engine, while a quarter of victims who reported We have a really urgent problem affecting thousands an advert on Facebook that resulted in them being of people every year.Wemust sort it quickly.I am confident scammed said the advert was not removed by the social that we can, because I know from knocking around the media site. Those companies earn billions of pounds cyber-security industry for most of the past decade that from advertising. Yesterday, Google’s parent company, the UK has always been a global leader in cyber-security Alphabet, reported record results, with a 163% increase and tackling cyber-crime. I have seen our strategy grow, in profits. Alphabet’s executives have attributed that rise mature and evolve as the threat has. Fraudulent online to an increase in people using Google’s online services adverts are a real threat to all our constituents. It is not and interacting with their online adverts. I do not think on the horizon; it is here already, and it has been for it unreasonable to require those companies to spend several years. The alarm bells are sounding, and the some of their money on helping to protect people from problem is growing, so let us grip it now and offer our the harm caused by fraudulent adverts, especially given constituents the protection they all deserve. that adverts are targeted at users based on their recent web activity and behaviour. Fraudulent ads, based on a 4.21 pm user’s interests or concerns, are effectively pushed towards Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): I congratulate the them by online platforms, which act as enablers for the hon. Member for Rushcliffe (Ruth Edwards) on securing scammers. the debate and on the powerful case she made. The 165WH Online Scams: Consumer Protection28 APRIL 2021 Online Scams: Consumer Protection 166WH

Pensions Scams Industry Group estimates that 40,000 frauds. That is critical to preventing the harms that we people, like Mr and Mrs Biggs, were scammed out of have heard about and the economic damage to our pension savings in the five years after the introduction businesses, and disrupting the organised criminals who of the pension freedoms and lost £10 billion between perpetrate these crimes. To do that, the Government are them. As she explained, losing pension savings after a taking steps to ensure that fewer people fall foul of lifetime of work is a devastating experience, and she is these scams. right that most of the problem is online. In September, The National Cyber Security Centre has been at the Aviva told the Work and Pensions Committee that in forefront of that effort. Last year, it launched a new the previous six months—since the start of lockdown—it suspicious email reporting service, which makes it easier had identified 27 fake websites purporting to be Aviva for the public to highlight suspicious emails and websites. tryingtodefraudpension-agecustomersof theirinvestments. The service has already led to more than 5.5 million As the hon. Member said, the Government have the reports, and more than 41,000 scams and 81,000 websites chance to tackle this enormous problem in the forthcoming have been taken down. online safety Bill, but it appears, extraordinarily, that Importantly, we also need to help the public spot financial harms are to be carved out of it. I hope that these scams. We are working with banks and many the Minister can encourage us that that might be other organisations to help people spot when a scam reconsidered. We have heard a separate announcement appears, a dodgy text message appears on their phone of a consultation on online advertising, but that covers or an email appears in their inbox so that they can only part of the problem. A call for evidence on online protect themselves. That is in addition to the wider work advertising closed a year ago, but as yet nothing at all with the public and private sectors. seems to have come out of that, and asking us to wait for yet further consultation before anything is done Last year, we launched a new gov.uk page to help would be hopeless. The FSCS, the FCA and, I understand, keep the public safe online. I recommend it to colleagues, the Governor of the Bank of England are urging that who can perhaps disseminate it through their constituencies. scams should be included in the online safety Bill, so I We know that, sadly, in the midst of the pandemic, with hope the Minister can encourage us on that. the enormous human cost that it has had for so many people, fraudsters are seeking to take advantage of even that. We have been working with partners from across 4.22 pm law enforcement and health to track and mitigate the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the threat of fraud around the pandemic. That has included Home Department (Victoria Atkins): It is, as always, a a series of public messaging campaigns to inform the pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Ghani, public of fraudsters who are seeking to exploit the vaccine and a real pleasure to respond to the debate. I congratulate roll-out and tell them how we can all remain vigilant against my hon. Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Ruth Edwards) such attempts. on securing a debate on this important subject. I am We are working with industry to try to cut off these delighted that the right hon. Member for East Ham scams before they bear fruit on the internet. We have (Stephen Timms) was able to contribute as well. First, been leading work to develop bilateral fraud charters may I say that our sympathies are with Mr and Mrs Biggs? with our banking, telecommunications and accountancy My hon. Friend articulated all too well the losses that partners. They will bring greater clarity, transparency they have suffered. They have had to endure a terrible and accountability to the actions that each sector will experience that, sadly, is experienced by many people, take to target harden their systems and protect their and we heard from the right hon. Gentleman the scale customers from fraud. An example of that is the specialist of some of these frauds. Dedicated Card and Payment Crime Unit, which is a The Government absolutely recognise not only the police unit that targets and disrupts credit card fraud scale and the impact that fraud can have and is having and demonstrates the collaboration between UK Finance, on victims, but the impact of bringing perpetrators to the City of London police, the Metropolitan police and justice. According to the latest figures, fraud accounted the Home Office. It is also working to help online for over a third of all estimated crime in the year ending companies take advantage of its services, in particular September 2020 and, as my hon. Friend articulated all on the pernicious ways fraudsters are opening up their too well, behind the statistics there is the trail of misery fraud—for example, through the recruitment of young that these losses can encompass. Victims suffer both people to become money mules. There is another great financial loss and emotional harm. There can be piece of work with the telecoms companies, whereby if consequences for their livelihoods, their homes and somebody receives a suspicious text, they can forward it their families’ futures. We also know that the money to 7726, which will enable the telecoms companies to that has been stolen from them can often go on to fund look at it and see whether it should be removed. other serious and organised crimes. The response to online scams and all fraud demands As this year has demonstrated, more and more people a collaborative, innovative response to keep pace with are online at home, and we are acutely aware of the the changing threat and new technologies. We continue importance of staying safe in the virtual world. We are to work closely with industry to drive progress. focusing the Government’s efforts on tackling fraud My hon. Friend and the right hon. Gentleman and online scams in three key areas: prevention; catching understandably raised the landmark online safety Bill, the criminals responsible; and supporting the victims of and they asked whether fraud will be included in its these despicable crimes. scope. The new law will impose a duty of care on tech Prevention involves not just victims, the industry and companies. Although some companies have taken positive tech companies, but all of us. That is how we will be steps already, the Government are clear that more needs able to tackle these crimes. We must ensure the private to be done. In relation to the specificity of the online and public sectors prioritise preventing these types of safety Bill, there are ongoing discussions. 167WH Online Scams: Consumer Protection28 APRIL 2021 Online Scams: Consumer Protection 168WH

[Victoria Atkins] those who are vulnerable to these harmful crimes. Wehave asked the LawCommission to review the existing corporate Of course, what has been said in this debate will be criminal liability laws for economic crime, including listened to, and the concerns that have been raised will fraud, money laundering and false accounting, and we be reflected upon. However, in the more immediate are hoping to hear from them next year. We will, of term, my hon. Friend has chosen a timely moment in course, consider any findings that will benefit counter-fraud which to have this debate, because only tomorrow, my efforts, and we continue to work with regulators and noble Friend Baroness Williams of Trafford, along with industry to consider what more can be done. other ministerial colleagues, will meet with tech companies However, as my hon. Friend has set out, this is about to discuss a voluntary set of principles for preventing not just the financial impact on victims, but the emotional fraud and protecting the public on their platforms. The and other experiences that people have. We understand Government are having productive—we hope—but also that reimbursement can be a key part of helping people insistent conversations with the tech industry as to what deal with those experiences, and are working with the it should be doing in order to protect members of the financial sector to ensure that as many victims as possible public. I listened to my hon. Friend’s deconstruction—I are either able to claim their money back, or are reimbursed. think that is a fair word—of Google’s policy with great We are working particularly closely with the Treasury to interest, and I will commend it to my noble Friend the explore what can be done to promote greater consistency Baroness before she goes into tomorrow’s meeting. across the sector. We are also working with national and We are committed to tackling the problem of online local policing leads to support victims of these terrible fraud, and are considering every possible approach, crimes. The National Economic Crime Victim Care including legislative and non-legislative means. As has Unit, based within Action Fraud, is also supporting already been mentioned, the Department for Digital, victims, helping them to recover and protect themselves Culture, Media and Sport is leading work on the online against becoming victims again. advertising programme, which will consider, among As this debate draws to a close, let me again thank my other things, the role of online advertising in perpetrating hon. Friend for having raised these important points in fraud. DCMS is also carrying out broader and longer-term a timely manner. I very much appreciate the points that efforts on digital identity and data protection, and as she and the right hon. Gentleman have made, both my hon. Friend has mentioned, in February this year, about tackling fraudsters and about supporting victims the Home Secretary chaired a meeting of the Economic of these crimes. They have my assurance that the Crime Strategic Board, which brought together people Government take these threats very seriously, and it is from across the public sector and industry. At that through working together and taking a collaborative meeting, an ambitious new framework for a fraud action approach—helping the public to understand where there plan was agreed to drive forward and improve our may be a scam, but also working with tech companies collective response to these crimes. The full plan will be to ensure that these adverts and other things that have published later this year and will consider, among other been described are cut off at source—that we will help things, how we can include all sectors to protect the to stop these frauds from happening in the first place. public from fraud. Question put and agreed to. Law enforcement colleagues clearly play a crucial role in this subject, as do intelligence colleagues. We are considering all routes, including legislation, to give them 4.34 pm the tools they need to go after fraudsters and protect Sitting suspended. 169WH 28 APRIL 2021 District Heat Networks 170WH

District Heat Networks Therefore, it encounters problems that will impact every building jointly. That is why there needs to be greater consumer protection. 4.50 pm I want to draw focus on several key themes today. The Ms Nusrat Ghani (in the Chair): I remind hon. Members first is reliability. There have been extended delays in the that there have been some changes to normal practice in SDEN system going live, meaning residents were until order to support the hybrid arrangements. Members last month being provided with heat by the back-up who are participating physically and virtually must be boilers, which have proven less than reliable. By my present at the beginning of the debate and stay for the count, judging from the contact I have had with residents entire debate. I remind Members who are participating from New Mill Quarter, in the past year, there have been virtually that they will be visible at all times, not just to nearly 20 hot water or heating outages, including over each other, but to us in the Boothroyd Room. If Members the cold winter months, leaving people without hot have any technical problems, they should email the water or heating and putting vulnerable people at risk. Westminster Hall Clerks’ email address. I ask Members On two occasions since December, the hot water and who are attending physically to wear masks until they heating blackouts have required a call-out from the are speaking. I call Elliot Colburn to move the motion. London Fire Brigade due to problems in the back-up boiler room. Elliot Colburn (Carshalton and Wallington) (Con) The situation is not confined to Hackbridge. The [V]: I beg to move, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy That this House has considered district heat networks. heat networks consumer survey of 2017 found that a It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for greater proportion of heat network customers experience the first time in Westminster Hall, Ms Ghani. I am loss of heating compared with customers not served by grateful to the Speaker’s Office for granting me this these networks. A report by the Competition and Markets debate, as some of my Carshalton and Wallington Authority showed reliability concerns as a consistent theme residents, particularly those living in the New Mill Quarter of customer complaints on heat networks, particularly development in Hackbridge, have been adversely affected citing unplanned interruptions. by district heat networks. In my efforts to support them, I am guessing that most of us live in a home heated I have encountered many issues. by a boiler. For those who do, breakdowns are a rare For the benefit of the House, I should briefly explain occurrence. For New Mill Quarter residents, they are what a district heat network is. They are designed to very common. Even if those of us who live in a home take energy from a local energy source and distribute it heated by a boiler are dogged with problems, we can to consumers through a series of highly insulated pipes. vote with our feet, and switch provider or change our A common source of the energy is incinerators or system and replace the boiler. That option is not available so-called energy-from-waste facilities, as their proponents to those living in a district heat network. Residents in like to call them. That is the model used in my constituency. Hackbridge were sold a system that they were told would be 100%, 24/7 reliable. There are marketing documents When the Lib Dems gleefully secured the incinerator to prove that. [Interruption.] in Beddington that they fought so hard to deliver, one of their most common arguments was that the waste Ms Nusrat Ghani (in the Chair): Order. I believe all heat from the incinerator would be used to heat local hon. Members present have a proxy vote, so there is no homes. The idea was that highly insulated pipes would need for us to suspend for a Division in the House. Please be laid, water would be heated at an energy transfer continue. station, using heat from the incinerator, and sent along the pipes to residents’ homes, providing a reliable and Elliot Colburn: Thank you, Ms Ghani. supposedly clean heating source at a reasonable price, In a public meeting that the council tried—and failed—to all run by an arm’s length company called Sutton keep me out of, despite my calling for it in the first Decentralised Energy Network—SDEN—which is wholly place, residents were told that they should have somehow owned by the council. The reality is a system that has known that 100% did not mean 100% and that, inevitably, been dogged with failure, residents being ripped off and there would be problems. During that same meeting, the complete absence of any action or even empathy residents expressed how they could never get through to from the council. I will expand on that point later. someone when an outage occurred, were never updated My central point is that this relatively new form of and had no recourse to compensation because there energy production is almost entirely unregulated. When were no obligations on SDEN to do anything, due to residents have problems, they have very little in the way lack of regulation. The meeting ended with residents of consumer protections or rights. I hope I can persuade very unhappy, having received no answers and a pitiful the Government to fix that. The Government have compensation offer that did not make up for the stress already launched a consultation into the networks, which and concern caused by the constant outages. Nor was I contributed to, and have made space for discussions there any hope that things would get better; indeed, about the networks in the design of the Green Heat outages continued well after the meeting took place. Network Fund. The consultation describes the heat The second issue I want to address is customer networks as “central heating for cities”. When someone’s satisfaction. Residents in New Mill Quarter experience central heating breaks down in a traditional home, one higher than average heating bills. I conducted a survey family is affected. When a heat network breaks down, of those residents to acquire evidence of their experience. the entire network is affected, impacting hundreds or Some 71% of residents told me that their bills were a lot even thousands of people. As the consultation states, a higher than before they moved into New Mill Quarter; heat network that figure rose to nearly 100% when including those “avoids the need for individual heating solutions in every building.” who said their bills were somewhat higher. 171WH District Heat Networks28 APRIL 2021 District Heat Networks 172WH

[Elliot Colburn] The final point that I want to make about the networks, at least in Hackbridge, is that the project was doomed Thepricingstructureof SDENissplitintotwocategories: from the start, owing partly to a faulty business model. a variable rate, which is the usual cost of daily rate and The freedom of information requests and Information usage; and a standing charge, which covers maintenance Commissioner’s Office complaints have revealed that and repairs. However, the New Mill Quarter Residents SDEN was built on the back of a complete fantasy in Association calculated that the pricing model that SDEN terms of its financial and business modelling. That is uses as a basis for its costs is nearly £3 million higher for probably why the council worked so hard to keep it the estate than the next available alternative over the secret. SDEN is not making any money. In fact, it is in contract term. I can hear the Liberal Democrats shrieking a dire financial situation, and residents are the ones at me—incidentally,they were so keen to keep information being asked to pay the price. It is really an issue of the about the pricing model quiet and out of the public eye customer base. that it took freedom of information requests and a SDEN is still, even now after all the problems, being ruling from the Information Commissioner to get that touted as a massive success of the delusional, out-of-touch information out of them. They would say that the costs and uncaring Lib Dem-run council. We were told that are high because they include things such as insurance the incinerator would mean a district heat network that and system maintenance, and that is something that we would power potentially thousands of homes, even with mere mortals who have a boiler must pay for separately. the potential to retrofit existing properties to connect to But the numbers just do not stack up. There is evidence it, giving residents a so-called greener energy alternative. to suggest that residents are being completely ripped off. In truth, that was never going to happen. The logistical Some residents are looking into private litigation, and I nightmare of getting the pipes laid and the infrastructure do not think it beyond the realms of possibility that the in place even to heat the New Mill Quarter new build matterisinvestigatedbyaseriesof GovernmentDepartments. development, which is an estate of just over 800 homes, Things are that serious. was cripplingly expensive. So it was only ever really The overall customer satisfaction with district heat going to be an option for new builds, and it only really networks is also in question. I detailed the service issues happened in New Mill Quarter because as the crow flies on the estate, which I will not repeat. It is worth noting from the estate to the incinerator there are no obstructions that, on average, district heat network customers have in the way, so laying the pipes was relatively easy. lower satisfaction rates than customers of more traditional forms of heating. Despite being used as a flagship However, it is not as if developers want to be connected example of a nation embracing heat networks, Sweden in the first place. The council essentially had to strong-arm has the lowest heating satisfaction of all five European Barratt Homes into accepting SDEN and is now trying countries surveyed in a recent 2021 study. The country to force other developers in the borough to accept it has a history of consumer distrust of district heating too. On more than one occasion it has been caught with operators, due to fear of being taken advantage of in a egg on its face because it failed to persuade others, natural monopoly. including the local hospital, to become customers. That has caused real financial difficulty. Owing to the delays Potentially one the harshest elements of the district in getting connected and failure of the back-up boilers, heat network for residents in New Mill Quarter is the in addition to failing to find new customers, the council totally restrictive and monopolistic nature of the project. has to foot the bill for the high gas consumption costs. There are no boilers in the properties, so there is no That, in my opinion, offers a much better explanation ability to switch energy providers. SDEN is the only for why residents’ bills are so high. It is not that hard to option. The fundamental market freedoms that have follow the money. The council has to pay a high cost for helped make our country thrive are being denied there, the gas and residents have high energy bills: put two and and elsewhere in other district heating networks. There two together. Even now that the landfill gas engines at is no incentive for SDEN to help reduce the high energy the incinerator site have been switched on, I have it on bills, because there is no threat of their customers good authority that they are not enough to heat the switching providers. homes in New Mill Quarter, so a lot of the work is still New Mill Quarter residents are trapped in high energy being done by back-up boilers. It is going to take yet bill contracts. When I asked residents as part of my another two years before the incinerator turbines come survey if they would like to change providers, 91% said on line. yes and the remaining 9% were unsure. Not a single person wanted to stick. When asked if they were aware Looking to the future, even if the system was reliable, of SDEN and the obligation to use it when they moved the incinerator was connected and working well, and in to their new property, 35% of residents said that they prices were reasonable, it would not change the fact that were not, and 13% were unsure. It is clear that many the business model is still fatally flawed. There is something residents were not aware that they would be trapped in glaringly obvious coming down the line that I fear has the scheme before they moved in, and an overwhelming been overlooked. That is the fact that the Government’s majority would support freedom in the market to choose. own resources and waste strategy calls for the phasing I am a Conservative because I believe in the principles out of incinerators—or so-called energy from waste of the free market. Competition and choice have been facilities—as a form of waste management, as we look shown consistently to drive down prices while driving further up the waste hierarchy.The less waste we produce up reliability. Monopolies have no incentive to do either, and the more existing waste can be recycled or reused, because there is no chance of their losing their customer the less necessary disposal through incineration becomes. base. Of course there are other natural monopolies in What happens then? The day will come when not the UK, such as water, for example; but those negative enough waste will be produced to burn, and consequently impacts are mitigated through tough regulation including power the heat networks. What, then, happens to the an industry regulator, and consumer protections. residents who get heat from them? The back-up boilers 173WH District Heat Networks28 APRIL 2021 District Heat Networks 174WH are not the answer, as has been demonstrated, because should particularly concern the Government, not only they cannot cope with the stress of maintaining an because of their avowed aim to keep customer bills as entire heat network. There can only possibly be two low as possible, but because low levels of consumer options. One is to import waste to keep the incinerator confidence in heat networks, born of consistently poor and the supply going, which means more vehicle movements service and expensive bills, will make it that much and more pollution, and scrapping the fantasy that it is harder for the UK to decarbonise heat and reduce our some kind of green alternative. The other is an expensive, overall greenhouse gas emissions. time-consuming and in many cases potentially impossible In the time I have today, I do not intend to delve into retrofit of an alternative energy supply. The networks the enormous challenge presented by the urgent need to are not future-proofed at all and it may be 20 or decarbonise heat, and what more the Government must 30 years away but the day will come when the failure to do to meet that challenge, not least because I know that future-proof could lead to an even greater problem for my hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Test residents down the line. (Dr Whitehead) will do so with his customary rigour I have covered a lot of ground today, but I hope that I and incisiveness when he responds from the Front Bench. have demonstrated the seriousness of the problems I do want to make the point that we will struggle as a facing New Mill Quarter residents, who feel ignored country to take the public with us when making the case and abandoned by their ward councillors, the council at for the benefits of large-scale heat network deployment large and SDEN. SDEN’s problems are not unique, if we continue to put off addressing the systemic problems although I imagine some of the dodgy dealings might in the sector. be. However, tougher regulation is clearly needed, as It is true that for many customers, heat networks examples of what I have described can be found across offer an efficient supply of heat and hot water, at prices the country. At the very least, consumers need to be that are close to or lower than other sources of supply, given greater protections and there should be a regulator such as gas and electricity. I am sure the Minister will on a statutory footing, which must compel the pricing cite evidence indicating that the majority of customers model to be on par with the market average. There are satisfied with their systems. However, it is beyond should be a 24/7 helpline to report faults, a compensation dispute that a significant minority of customers of package for every outage, the ability to escalate complaints privately owned heat network schemes,including thousands to a higher organisation, and so on. of my constituents, given the number of new build I also urge the Government to look at whether these developments in my constituency, are still not getting a monopolies are a good idea at all. The inability to fair deal. choose a provider is not just unfair; we are also heading Whether it is unreasonably high tariffs; significant to a point where the source of energy might not even be variation in unit prices and average bills, not only between available in a couple of decades. It is not fair of our schemes but between customers on the same scheme; generation to burden a future generation with tackling significant month-by-month variation on standing charges, that problem. I urge the Government to let SDEN be a which are often incredibly high; a lack of transparency lesson in what not to do. Let us not resign residents in in billing; or frequent outages that are the result of Hackbridge or anywhere else to this poor state of affairs. sub-standard or poorly installed equipment, far too many heat network customers are being badly let down. 5.5 pm As a voluntary consumer protection scheme, the Heat Matthew Pennycook (Greenwich and Woolwich) (Lab): Trust does a good job. It is a welcome development that It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, a growing number of sites are registering with it, but the Ms Ghani. In preparing for this afternoon’s debate, I protection it affords to customers on such sites are looked back over my records and discovered that the inherently limited. Similarly, the process of attempting first time I raised concerns about inadequate consumer to secure redress by means of a complaint to the energy protection for customers of district heat networks was ombudsman is time-consuming, constrained by the fact in early 2016, a matter of months after I was first elected that the service deems issues such as heat price increases to this House. to be commercial decisions that it cannot adjudicate on. In some ways, the situation has moved on significantly Of course, that is not available to customers on sites since that date. I recall at the time making the case for that, for whatever reason, have not registered with the greater protection for heat network customers, only to Heat Trust. be told by Ministers that statutory regulation would not The simple fact is that neither the trust nor the be appropriate, and that it risked strangling an emerging ombudsman is a substitute for providing heat network industry with red tape. There is now at least a consensus customers with the same degree of protection that is that further regulation is required in this area. afforded to gas and electricity customers by means of I remember pressing the Competition and Markets formal regulation of the sector. Authority to open an area of investigation into the I say to the Minister: no more delay. The heat markets industry, only to be told it had no plans to do so. The framework consultation closed on 1 June last year, and CMA eventually carried out a market study that determined we have heard nothing since. Every month that passes that many customers of privately operated communal without legislative action means yet more expensive heating schemes are not well served on price and service, bills and continued poor service for heat network customers and it recommended a statutory regime governing the at the sharp end of industry practice, who cannot afford regulation of heat networks. to wait another year or two for the Government to provide Yet, taken in the round, there has been a tangible lack them with the protection that they deserve. of progress when it comes to doing what is necessary to I fully appreciate the demands on the Minister’s time, ensure that heat network customers are adequately but I urge her to give the matter greater priority and, protected. That should be a concern to each of us, but it subsequently to this debate, to forcefully make the case 175WH District Heat Networks28 APRIL 2021 District Heat Networks 176WH

[Matthew Pennycook] 5.13 pm Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP): It is for bringing forward the necessary legislation to introduce a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for the first a regulatory framework for the sector as early as possible time, Ms Ghani. You will be pleased to know that the word in the next parliamentary Session. In the interim, will “resignation”does not appear once in my prepared notes. she look again at what more the Department might do I congratulate the hon. Member for Carshalton and to cajole reluctant suppliers and operators to register all Wallington (Elliot Colburn) on securing the debate; I their communal heating schemes with the Heat Trust? should have realised that potentially it would relate to a 5.10 pm constituency issue, rather than being a plug for district heating. He made his case well about the issues that his Janet Daby (Lewisham East) (Lab) [V]: It is a pleasure constituents are suffering, and there is no doubt that the to speak in this debate with you as Chair, Ms Ghani. Minister has to provide a robust response. We also This is not the first time that I have spoken in a heard from the hon. Members for Greenwich and Woolwich Westminster Hall debate on district heat networks. Such (Matthew Pennycook) and for Lewisham East (Janet technologies are important for bringing green energy Daby) about the need for a regulator and for consumer into ordinary people’s homes and making Britain carbon- protections—that was certainly a theme common to all neutral as soon as possible. However, as we have heard, three speeches. work needs to be done to ensure that district heat The hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington networks provide not only energy efficiency, but cost highlighted the fact that energy from waste is causing a efficiency. District heating providers must be brought traffic movement issue. There is a proposed site next to under the control not just of formal regulators, but of my constituency where residents are concerned about consumers. movement and emissions. The point about there being The Catford Green area of my constituency is home no future-proofing is interesting, and it certainly seems to leaseholders, private renters and social tenants. All that the local council has a lot of questions to answer. I those residents are locked into a heating scheme that is must say that I was really shocked and surprised that it more expensive and less functional than the standard was not a Conservative council that the hon. Gentleman heating system—they are paying more money for less was laying into; he let slip at the end that it was a Lib energy. I am sure that all colleagues agree that that does Dem council. not make sense, but they have no choice. Looking at the big picture for heating overall, we face One constituent told me that he found out about the conflicting problems when it comes to heating our contract with E.ON only on the day he moved into the homes. For too many people, fuel poverty is an issue, flat that he had just bought. Unable to shop around, he yet 85% of our homes rely on methane gas heating—a feels trapped in a contract that suits his building’s system that is cheaper than electricity and, for the most owners’finances, rather than his own. Another constituent part, clearly very convenient, given that a boiler can be in the same estate told me that the nature of the activated at leisure. That is illustrated by the fact that contract meant that she could not opt out of bills when until it was recently overtaken by China, the UK was her flat was empty. She went travelling for a few months the biggest market for gas boilers in the world, but we but still had to pay a minimum of £30 to £40 a month know that cannot continue. We need to decarbonise, and for energy that she did not consume. Catford Green we need plans, strategies and funding to get there. residents have also reported frequent power outages The UK Government are good at soundbites and with a lack of acknowledgment or compensation from targets, but targets are meaningless without policies—for E.ON. Again, that is not fair and not right. example, the target of 600,000 heat pump installations District heat networks clearly need regulation. With by the year 2028, from circa 20,000 a year right now. an uncompetitive market, consumers are being overcharged That means almost doubling the number every year for a low-quality service. The current Government position from next year onwards. Without coherent policies and of relying on voluntary membership of the Heat Trust funding strategies to put that in place, it does not seem network cannot continue. Regulation must be enforced realistic, especially when we factor in that the installation by the Government with exactly the same expectations cost for a full system is circa £15,000. Without grants or that are placed on other parts of the energy industry, some sort of long-term route to market strategy, strong and the same consequences for breaching standards. action is required for the Government to get heat pump There must be a cap on the standing charges that installations in place. companies rack up, and greater transparency in pricing The 10-point plan also has targets for carbon capture tariffs. Customer service must improve and customers and storage from hydrogen production. We are still such as my constituents in Catford Green must be listened awaiting strategies for them, but district heating is not to and respected. even mentioned in the document. In fact, district heating has not featured significantly enough in debates to date, Like me, the residents I spoke to are committed to which means today’s debate is very welcome. Looking reducing their environmental impact. They support the forward, the reality is that if we are to decarbonise, we objectives of district heating, but their valid points will have a rise in some form of district heating in some about high costs and low standards must be addressed cases. to ensure the effective progress of this innovative technology. It is not good enough for the Government to say that As far back as 2017, the then director of the Department they will look at this; they must regulate the service. for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy stated that My residents deserve it, and so do the public. “whatever you do you end up with 17-24 per cent district heating”, so why does district heating lag behind in discussions MsNusratGhani(intheChair):IcalltheSNPspokesperson, and planning? It is quite clear that we need more of Mr Alan Brown. that. We need the heat and buildings decarbonisation 177WH District Heat Networks28 APRIL 2021 District Heat Networks 178WH strategy, as well as the Government’s net zero strategy. As we look forward, there is plenty to be done. I look The Scottish Government published theirs in February forward to the Minister’s response. With COP26 on the 2021. If re-elected, the SNP pledged to decarbonise the horizon, this should be our ideal platform to demonstrate heating of 1 million homes by 2030—over a third of the a coherent, complementary heat decarbonisation strategy. housing stock in Scotland—and all new homes and buildings from 2024 will use renewable or zero-emission 5.20 pm heating. That is backed by a £1.6 billion investment plan. Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab): I Scotland is trying to reduce emissions and heating congratulate the hon. Member for Carshalton and costs,and to fight fuel poverty.Compared with Westminster, Wallington (Elliot Colburn) on securing the debate. we spend four times more per capita on energy efficiency, Although such positions are not declarable on the Register which is vital in reducing emissions. By contrast, the of Members’ Financial Interests, I ought to say that I UK Government’s future homes standard involves am a vice-president of the Association for Decentralised eliminating the connection of new homes to the gas grid Energy, formerly the Combined Heat and Power by 2025. That means that by 2024, something like Association. The position I hold reflects my long-standing 200,000 new homes will be connected to the gas grid interest in district heating and local energy schemes, and will then need retrofit measures in order to decarbonise which I have maintained throughout my time in Parliament, at a later date. which is now a very long time. I will mention briefly in my comments my interest in these schemes and That is not to say the UK Government have not arrangements. made attempts to introduce a greater range of district I was not sure what the thrust of the debate was heating. Some £320 million was allocated through the going to be, but I anticipated that it would probably be existing heat networks investment project, but that comes about the concerns that some Members have expressed to an end in 2022, and two pilots—in Sheffield and over time about circumstances relating to the operation Manchester—were pulled. What has been the extent of of some, but by no means all, district heating schemes. spend on district network creation to date? What lessons, Like my hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich and if any, have been learned, including what we have heard Woolwich (Matthew Pennycook), I have expressed concerns today? What would the success of the green heat network about that, and I have put forward remedies for those fund look like, and how much of the green heat network’s concerns over a number of years in this House. £270 million is new money? I think district heating will be an important part of As we have heard clearly, the big issue for district our approach to the decarbonisation of heating. It heating is the fact that there is no regulator. This means certainly has a substantial part to play, under particular that consumers in district heat networks have less security circumstances and in particular areas, in delivering low than traditional gas and electric consumers, and there is carbon heat reliably and satisfactorily to populations. no ombudsman to receive complaints. That discourages At its heart, it is a system about networks, not about consumers from connecting to the heat network. As we what goes into the networks. A variety of different have heard, the ones who are connected have real issues forms of fuel can go into the network and deliver heat trying to resolve matters. very efficiently. It is not just about taking heat from Looking to Scotland again, the Scottish Government incinerators. It has much wider applications through passed the Heat Networks (Scotland) Act in February heat engines or through low-carbon sources of energy 2021, which provides a regulatory framework to cover that can be a part of a network. The network can adapt heat networks. What is the UK Government’s position and change over time. on introducing a regulator or a regulatory framework The efficient use of heat that this represents has been for district heating? I hope the Minister can answer rolled out much more in other parts of Europe than has that. As the hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich been the case in the UK. I visited Denmark a little while said, the industry and the Heat Trust are trying to fill ago, which has more than 50% of its total heat provided the gap with a voluntary standard, but at the end of the by district heating schemes, and in Copenhagen it is day it is voluntary. That belies the issue, so we need about 90%. They are well-regulated schemes with a very statutory protections. low level of complaints and a very high level of delivery We need to see greater investment in energy efficiency. and efficiency, and they generate affordable heat in the What of the Tory manifesto’s £9.2 billion commitment? process. We need to see a coherent heat and building strategy My city of Southampton now has five district heating that will deliver a suite of options. They will still need to schemes within the city boundary, including the nation’s include district heating, which the Committee on Climate only geothermally heated district heating scheme, which Change reckons will account for 18% of heat in our I often draw attention to. That demonstrates that the homes going forward. That means ensuring a route to fuel types for heat schemes can be very different. Where market for the capital cost and/or a Government funding the schemes are well run, there are few complaints and plan. they continue to deliver affordable and, in this instance, It is interesting that the Association of Decentralised low-carbon energy to the city. Heating estimates that energy bills for those in district That is one side of the coin. The other side is what heating is £100 cheaper compared with gas, so this happens with the schemes that already exist, and indeed could be a good tool for fighting fuel poverty. Again, have existed for a long time and have different forms of clearly we need protections. As the hon. Member for ownership and input. I am pleased that the Government Carshalton and Wallington said, we cannot have a have recently woken up to the potential of district closed shop where consumers start paying higher charges heating. Through the green heat network fund and than they otherwise would need to. various other things, they will be providing money and 179WH District Heat Networks28 APRIL 2021 District Heat Networks 180WH

[Dr Alan Whitehead] In the end, we only have one line on the subject in the energy White Paper: support, mainly for local authority-based schemes, to “We intend to legislate in this Parliament for the regulation of bring forward district heating in the future, but I am heat networks to protect well aware that the good schemes that may be brought consumers and reduce carbon emissions.” about in the future are by no means the whole picture of That is a fine ambition, but hon. Members will notice district heating across the country. There are currently that the proposal is to legislate in this Parliament on about 2,000 schemes in the country, which produce something that we do not know the content of because something like 2% of domestic, public sector and there has been no comeback from the consultation on commercial heat demand, and supply just over 200,000 what a scheme might be. Should we legislate in this buildings and almost 2,000 commercial and public buildings Parliament, say at the very end, there will inevitably be a across the UK. time lag in bringing a scheme to fruition, and we could As we have heard, a proportion of those 2,000 schemes be well into the end of this decade before we get the sort are not well run at all, frankly, and for various reasons of regulation that we clearly need. I guess the Minister they have produced a bad deal for customers. Indeed, in is going to make some considerable play of the fact that some instances, because of the age of the system, there the Government intend to legislate, but, frankly, that has not been any investment in the system and they are really is not good enough. As I say, we do not know producing very inefficiently. In some instances, because what this regulation will consist of, how universal it will of a frequent change in private ownership, they have be, what redress will be in it, how legally enforceable it simply been starved of the sort of investment they need will be and how it will shape new networks,or retrospectively to run at a good level, and there has not been the level of encompass all existing networks. customer care that there should have been in the systems Finally, a vague suggestion that we might legislate over the period. The points that hon. Members made sometime in this Parliament, with a possibly extended about their local schemes are well founded. It is up to us implementation date, does not answer the issues that to recognise that that is the case and to do something hon. Members have raised in any coherent and satisfying about it; otherwise, the next generation of district heating way.First, we need to get the response to the consultation schemes, which will be essential, will not be well founded, out as soon as possible, so people are much clearer as far as their operation is concerned, for the future. about what it is we might be considering, and if they think it is insufficient, they can talk about how better to The Government have sort of recognised over the deal with the issues mentioned in that regulation in a years that that is a problem, but I am afraid they have satisfactory and comprehensive way. not done very well by customers in those circumstances. Secondly, we need a commitment from the Minister Until relatively recently, they considered that regulation this afternoon that she will not just rest on the idea that should not be statutory, as my hon. Friend the Member there might be legislation some time in this Parliament, for Greenwich and Woolwich said, but that it should be but that she will go away this afternoon and get writing entirely voluntary and done on the basis of an industry that legislation—not personally, necessarily, but with scheme. The 2013 paper “The future of heating: meeting the support of some of her colleagues and civil servants the challenge” stated: in BEIS— and get that through Parliament as quickly “The Government does not want to stop the growth of the as possible. That means next year. I know the Minister sector through introducing unnecessary regulation. DECC is is close to being a miracle worker in her position, but if therefore initially seeking an industry-led scheme”. she can achieve that over the next period she will certainly Up to relatively recently, that was the position of the have my full support. Government over a long period. 5.35 pm A heroic effort to do just that was introduced by the The Minister for Business, Energy and Clean Growth Combined Heat and Power Association, now the ADE, (Anne-Marie Trevelyan): It is a pleasure to serve under through the Heat Trust, which, in its own right, is a your chairmanship, Ms Ghani. Let me begin by good scheme.Of course, as hon. Members have mentioned, congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton it is entirely voluntary. If schemes do not want to join it, and Wallington (Elliot Colburn) on securing this really they do not have to—a lot have not. The redress is important debate. I also thank the hon. Members for strictly limited to those people who are already likely to Greenwich and Woolwich (Matthew Pennycook), for be the good guys in the first place, and not those that Lewisham East (Janet Daby) and for Kilmarnock and are, perhaps, the most egregious underperformers as far Loudoun (Alan Brown) for raising issues of concern in as the overall system is concerned. their own constituencies. As ever, I thank my friend the Fair play to the Government, who have recognised hon. Member for Southampton, Test (Dr Whitehead), that that system is not the right way to go about who turns out to be an expert and an advocate on the regulation for the future. In spring last year, we had subject of domestic heat networks—who knew? He was the “Heat networks: building a market framework” able to take us from Denmark to Southampton in consultation, which set out a scheme for universal regulation demonstrating why they can and should be an important —not a perfect scheme, but a scheme nevertheless. We part of the mix. I thank to all colleagues for their had that consultation, introduced last February and contributions to the debate. concluded last summer—and have heard nothing I was very sorry to hear of the troubles experienced whatsoever since. There has been no Government response by the constituents of my hon. Friend the Member for or discussion of how the very sketchy scheme set out in Carshalton and Wallington in the New Mill Quarter of the original consultation could be improved and assured his constituency. They have had really awful challenges as a universal scheme,both retrospectively and prospectively, with their district heat network. I sympathise with the for district heating. difficulties that has clearly caused them all and it is 181WH District Heat Networks28 APRIL 2021 District Heat Networks 182WH profoundly disappointing to hear that their Lib Dem-run for heat network consumers. The Heat Trust provides council has failed them all so very badly. I absolutely an independent market-led voluntary standards scheme agree with the need for protections for heat network and consumers on heat networks registered to the Heat consumers.The experience of my hon. Friend’sconstituents Trust benefit from terms of service similar to those in highlights the importance of the Government’scommitment the gas and electricity markets. They can also access the to regulate the heat networks market within this Parliament. energy ombudsman if they have a complaint against Heat networks play and will continue to play an their heat supplier. In 2019, BEIS wrote an open letter important part in assisting us to meet our net zero to all heat network operators encouraging them to register challenge. They will unlock larger-scale renewable and their schemes with the Heat Trust and we continue to recovered heat sources, both energy from waste heat and encourage schemes to sign up to raise standards now heat from rivers and mines. It was interesting to hear and to prepare for regulation. aboutthegeothermalheatsourcebeingusedinSouthampton. When deployed effectively, they can bring greater heat Alan Brown: The work on the regulation framework efficiency than individual gas boilers, lower costs for the Minister is talking about seems well advanced, so consumers and support local regeneration. However, we can she give us a timescale for when legislation will recognise that we need to regulate the market to ensure come forward? that those outcomes are real, for which protections for heat network consumers are needed. Anne-Marie Trevelyan: If only I could do it tomorrow, As colleagues have highlighted, in 2017 the Government but I think Prorogation would stop me. We have also commissioned a survey to quantify consumer experiences supported the Heat Networks Industry Council in its with heat networks in England and Wales. The results work to establish the consumer protection agreement showed that consumers connected to a heat network and the heat network emergency responders group in have generally received good service and were as satisfied response to the covid-19 pandemic. We encourage heat as non-heat network customers, which makes the terrible suppliers to sign up to that agreement and we have experiences of those in New Mill Quarter all the more written to signatories urging them to do more to tackle upsetting. The results of the survey also showed that, outages and improve compensation standards for those on average, a heat network consumer was likely to pay outages. Although these schemes have benefited many £100 less per year for heating and hot water compared consumers, we recognise that regulation is needed to with consumers on other utilities. Again, this makes it drive up consumer standards across the heat networks all the more shocking that my hon. Friend’s constituents market. I therefore reiterate our commitment to that have got such a raw deal from their Lib Dem council’s regulation today, but I am afraid that I cannot give a activities. precise date. The Government also noted, however, a report by the The Government have introduced several schemes to Competition and Markets Authority in 2018, which support heat network deployment. Our heat networks showed that a significant minority of heat network investment project has made £320 million of capital consumers experienced high prices, frequent outages funding available for investment in heat network projects and a lack of transparency. Therefore, we committed to through grants and loans in England and Wales. That the Competition and Markets Authority’srecommendation will be succeeded by the green heat network fund in of regulating the market and, last year, consulted on 2022, which will support and incentivise the use of establishing a heat networks market framework. low-carbon heat sources in heat networks. Both investment The framework will include introducing consumer projects will ensure adequate consumer protection measures protection rules to combat cases of detriment, such as are in place by requiring projects to demonstrate Heat the outages being experienced by the residents of New Trust or equivalent standards, which will ensure that Mill Quarter. We want heat network consumers to have taxpayers’ money supports only heat networks that comparable levels of service and protection to those deliver fair pricing and which are well designed, efficient using electricity and gas on individual contracts for systems. their homes. As part of the market framework, we will Furthermore, we have been carrying out work on introduce quality of service standards requiring notification improving performance across a number of existing periods for planned outages and compensation for all heat networks. That provides an evidence base for the outages. development of the heat networks efficiency scheme, Consumers will have access to an independent redress whichwillpart-fundoperationalperformanceimprovements scheme and a consumer advocacy body, which will and carbon emission reductions in existing systems. provide a consumer helpline and priority services for Further details will be announced later this year. consumers in vulnerable circumstances. The regulator It is essential that heat network consumers are provided will have powers to enforce price transparency, introduce with clean and reliable heat at an affordable price. As guidance on fair pricing, set requirements on cost allocation such, we are developing the heat networks market and conduct investigations into heat networks where framework that will place consumers at its heart, deliver prices are disproportionately high. Finally, consumers sustained investment in the sector and maximise heat will be provided with a minimum level of easily accessible networks’potential economic and environmental benefits. information and guidance on heat networks at the We committed in the energy White Paper to legislate for pre-contractual stages of property transactions and the market framework by the end of the Parliament. during residency. There will be requirements on the Weare working closely with the industry and consumer provision of heat supply agreements and billing information. groups to ensure that regulation delivers positive outcomes We are preparing to introduce legislation to regulate for consumers,and we will shortly publish the Government’s the market, but, as colleagues have mentioned, there are response to last year’s consultation. I look forward to some measures already in place to improve standards working with all colleagues on the proposals that we 183WH District Heat Networks28 APRIL 2021 District Heat Networks 184WH

[Anne-Marie Trevelyan] bring that about and get it on the statute book, because it is really needed. If heat networks are to form a big will bring forward. In the meantime, I wish my hon. part of our heating for the future, they must be regulated Friend the Member for Carshalton and Wallington and and have consumer protections. At the moment, residents his constituents well as they seek redress from their in New Mill Quarter can only dream of living under a council, whose failure to meet the standards that residents heat network that lives up to the standards expected in a could have reasonably expected is motivation indeed for normal home, let alone those of an innovative scheme the Government to get protections in place. for the future. I am grateful to the Minister and look forward to working with her. 5.43 pm Question put and agreed to. Elliot Colburn [V]: I thank the Minister for her response. Resolved, It is really reassuring to hear that the Government have That this House has considered district heat networks. heard my concerns and those of colleagues across the House and will take action in the form of regulation. I 5.44 pm look forward to working with her constructively to Sitting adjourned. 11WS Written Statements 28 APRIL 2021 Written Statements 12WS

The National Gallery will on 17 May 2021 open its Written Statements eagerly awaited exhibition “Conversations with God”, with Jan Matejko(1838-1893)’sepic painting of astronomer Wednesday 28 April 2021 Copernicus—a Polish national treasure—at its heart. Successive delays caused by covid-19 have frustrated the schedule and logistics of this exhibition, the first devoted to Poland’snational painter,whose works are very seldomly TREASURY loaned. The complexities of transporting fine art across Europe mid-pandemic, related pandemic stipulations, and works HMRC: Contingencies Fund Advance of particular national importance, are such that Polish lenders have requested an indemnity directly from National Gallery in the event that any of the artworks suffered The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Jesse Norman): damage, in addition to the fine art coverage provided by Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs will incur new the Government indemnity scheme. Despite the UK’s expenditure in connection with the Government’sresponse Government indemnity scheme enjoying widespread to the covid-19 pandemic in 2021-22. recognition as the “gold standard”amongst such schemes, Parliamentary approval for additional resources of the Department has agreed to this additional layer of £7,792,000,000 for this new expenditure will be sought coverage—a particular lender requirement under Polish in a main estimate for Her Majesty’sRevenue and Customs. law—in view of the exhibition’s exceptional content and Pending that approval, urgent expenditure estimated timing. The indemnity would be in place for four months at £7,792,000,000 will be met by repayable cash advances (May to September 2021), up to the consignment of from the Contingencies Fund. artworks’ total value of £5.6 million and therefore represents a contingent liability. The likelihood of the Further requests to the Contingencies Fund may be contingent liability crystallising is remote. Furthermore, made as necessary to fund covid-19 activity delivered by a claim would be far more likely to fall at the lower end Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs. of the monetary scale provided for. [HCWS945] In the event that loss or damage to an object occurred, the lenders would have the right to request compensation directly from the gallery, should it believe the Government DIGITAL, CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT indemnity scheme or a commercial insurance product to be inadequate or unduly inaccessible. The Department is confident, however, that the risk is very low, given the Contingent Liability: National Gallery comprehensive nature of Government indemnity scheme coverage and its excellent track record in meeting the rare claims brought by lenders. The Department is The Minister for Digital and Culture (Caroline Dinenage): further reassured by the rarity of “total loss” cases, with I am tabling this statement for the benefit of all members only one such pay-out under the Government indemnity of this House to bring to their attention the departmental scheme in the past decade, and by the National Gallery’s minute issued today that provides the House with notice exceptional standards of care, which has submitted no of a small, short-term contingent liability created by my claims under the Government indemnity scheme for at Department. This is in relation to an exceptional exhibition least the last 20 years. arranged by the National Gallery in partnership with A copy of the departmental minute will be placed in the Polish Cultural Institute, and pertains to specialist the Libraries of both Houses. indemnity insurance coverage protecting five artefacts The attachment can be viewed online at: http://www. from harm or damage, required throughout the period parliament.uk/business/publications/written-questions- of transport and display. The National Gallery, an arm’s answers-statements/written-statement/Commons/2021- length body of Government sponsored by the Department 04-28/HCWS946. for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, will be incurring [HCWS946] the liability.

ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 28 April 2021

Col. No. Col. No. PRIME MINISTER ...... 365 SCOTLAND—continued Engagements...... 365 Research and Innovation Funding: Scottish Universities ...... 362 SCOTLAND...... 357 Scotland’s Constitutional Future ...... 365 COP26 ...... 361 Support for Businesses: Covid-19...... 364 Defence Sector ...... 363 The Union ...... 357 Free Trade Agreements ...... 364 Universal Basic Income...... 360 WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Wednesday 28 April 2021

Col. No. Col. No. DIGITAL, CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT...... 11WS TREASURY ...... 11WS Contingent Liability: National Gallery ...... 11WS HMRC: Contingencies Fund Advance ...... 11WS No proofs can be supplied. Corrections that Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked on a copy of the daily Hansard - not telephoned - and must be received in the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Wednesday 5 May 2021

STRICT ADHERENCE TO THIS ARRANGEMENT GREATLY FACILITATES THE PROMPT PUBLICATION OF BOUND VOLUMES

Members may obtain excerpts of their speeches from the Official Report (within one month from the date of publication), by applying to the Editor of the Official Report, House of Commons. Volume 693 Wednesday No. 208 28 April 2021

CONTENTS

Wednesday 28 April 2021

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 357] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Scotland Prime Minister

Government Support for India [Col. 377] Answer to urgent question—(Nigel Adams)

Environment (Regulation) [Col. 389] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Tim Farron)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Fire Safety Bill [Col. 392] Lords message considered

Capital Gains Tax [Col. 414] Motions—(Jesse Norman)—agreed to

Insolvency [Col. 419] Motion—(Paul Scully)—agreed to

Immigration [Col. 429] Motion—(Holly Lynch)—on a Division, negatived

National Security and Investment Bill [Col. 445] Lords message considered

Amendments to the Independent Complaints and Grievance Scheme [Col. 454] Motion—(Mr Rees-Mogg)—agreed to

Petition [Col. 469]

National Minimum Wage Enforcement [Col. 470] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall GKN Automotive Plant: Birmingham [Col. 113WH] Redundancy Protection: Women and New Parents [Col. 131WH] British Meat and Dairy Products [Col. 139WH] Online Scams [Col. 161WH] District Heat Networks [Col. 169WH] General Debates

Written Statements [Col. 11WS]

Written Answers to Questions [The written answers can now be found at http://www.parliament.uk/writtenanswers]