Fourth Session- Thirty-FifthLegislature

of the

Legislative Assembly of

STANDING COMMITTEE

on

LAW AMENDMENTS

42 Elizabeth II

Chairperson Mr. Bob Rose Constituencyof Turtle Mountain

VOL XUI No. 18 • 7 p.m., THURSDAY, JULY 22, 1993

ISSN0713-9586 MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-FifthLegislature

Members, ConstHuenctes and PoiHical Affiliation

NAME CONSTITUENCY PARTY. ALCOCK,Reg Osborne Liberal ASHTON, Steve Thompson NDP BARREn, Becky Wellington NDP CARSTAIRS, Sharon River Heights Liberal CERILLI, Marianne Radisson NDP CHOMIAK, Dave Kildonan NDP CUMMINGS, Glen� Hon. Ste. Rose PC DACQUAY, Louise Seine River PC DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Roblin-Russell PC DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk NDP DOER, Gary Concordia NDP DOWNEY, James, Hon. Arthur-Virden PC DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. Steinbach PC DUCHARME, Gerry,Hon. Riel PC EDWARDS, Paul St. James Liberal ENNS, Harry, Hon. Lakeside PC ERNST, Jim, Hon. Charleswood PC EVANS, Ciif Interlake NDP ·EVANS, LeonardS. Brandon East NDP FILMON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo PC FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. Springfield PC FRIESEN, Jean Wolseley NDP GAUDRY, Neil St. Boniface Liberal GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. Minnedosa PC GRAY, Avis Crescentwood Liberal HELWER, Edward R. Gimli PC HICKES, George Point Douglas NDP LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Liberal LATHLIN, Oscar The Pas NDP LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norbert PC MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood NDP MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. Morris PC MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows NDP McALPINE, Gerry Sturgeon Creek PC McCRAE, James, Hon. Brandon West PC MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. Assiniboia PC MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East PC ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. ·Pembina PC PALLISTER, Brian PortageIa Prairie PC PENNER, Jack Emerson PC PLOHMAN, John Dauphin NDP PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. Lac du Bonnet PC REID, Daryl Transcona NDP REIMER, Jack Niakwa PC RENDER, Shirley St. Vital PC ROCAN, Denis, Hon. Gladstone PC ROSE, Bob Turtle Mountain PC SANTOS, Conrad Broadway NDP STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. Kirkfield Park PC STORIE, Jerry AinAon NDP SVEINSON, Ben La Verendrye PC VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. FortGarry PC WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy St. Johns NDP WOWCHUK, Rosann Swan River NDP Vacant Rossmere Vacant Rupertsland Vacant The Maples 546

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON LAW AMENDMENTS

Thursday, July 22, 1993

TIME-7p.m. Bill 52-The Manitoba Foundation Act

LOCATION-, Manitoba Mr. Chairperson: I believe we had covered CHAIRPERSON -Mr. Bob Rose (Turtle everythingin Bill 52 except Clause 8. Shall Clause Mountain) 8pass? Ms. Judy Wasylycla-Lels (St. Johns): Mr. ATTENDANCE - 10- QUORUM- 6 Chairperson, I have an amendment.I move, in both Members of the Committeepresent: English and French Hon. Mr. Driedger THAT subsection 8(3) be struck out and the · Messrs. Helwer, Lamoureux, McAlpine, following substituted: Pallister, Reid, Reimer, Rose, Sveinson, Ms. Other trustees Wasylycia-Leis 8(3) Subject to subsection (2), when the first APPEARING: institution is designated by regulationin a category of institution that represents , MLA for Thompson (a) all educational institutions; Jean Friesen, MLA for Wolseley (b) all hospitalinstitutions; or Clayton Manness, MLA for Morris (c) all museum institutions; WITNESSES: the board shall include two trustees in respect of Bill 24-The Taxicab Amendment and that category of institution, appointed by the Consequential AmendmentsAct Lieutenant Governor in Council from a list of Benjamin Famakim, Private Citizen nominees submitted by each category of institution set out in clauses (a) to (c). Elizabeth Adams, Private Citizen [French version) Ed Zurawzuk, Private Citizen II est proposeque le paragraphe 8(3) soit rem place Sukhdeu Garcha, Private Citizen par ce qui suit: MATTERS UNDER DISCUSSION: Autres admlnlstrateurs Bill 24-The Taxicab Amendment and 8(3) Sous reserve du paragraphe (2), le conseil Consequential AmendmentsAct comprend deux administrateurs representant celle Bill 52-The Manitoba Foundation Act des categories d'etablissements suivantes des qu'un etablissement particulier est designe, par *** reglement, comme en faisantpartie: Mr.Chairperson: Order, please. Will theStanding a) les etablissementsscolaires; Committee on Law Amendments please come to b) les etablissements hospitaliers; order.The following bills will beconsidered: Bill 52, c) les etablissementsmuseaux. The Manitoba Foundation Act, and Bill 24, The Taxicab Amendment and Consequential Les administrateurs sont nommes par le Amendments Act. Copies of thebills are available lieutenant-gouverneuren conseila partir d'une liste for the committee at theback table. de candidats dressee par les etablissements faisantpartie de ces categories. As was mentioned at the committee meeting this afternoon, we will now continue with clause-by­ Motionpr-.ented. clause consideration of Bill 52, andwill revert back Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): to Bill 24 when this bill has been disposedof. Mr. Chairperson, my commentswill bebrief. I hope LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 22, 1993

ovide an explanation to the member and to Moreover, The Heritage Act contains provisions

__ ·- ...... r' Party as to why it is we cannot accept the which are not necessary, if the primary function of amendment at this time. We sense in the fledgling the Crown agency foundation is to act as a conduit period of this new foundation that we should not of donations to qualifying institutions. There are force upon thefoundation a requirement that all of concerns that the type of entities covered under the institutions listed below have fixed The Heritage Act go beyond the intent of a Crown representation. agency foundation, based on criteria established by the federal government, namely, that qualifying In due course, as designations under the entities must receive a significant portion of their regulations increase, at that time I am sure the funding from the provincial government. And I foundation will provide that all of the institutions so stress that significant portion. Indeed, the federal classified will have two representativeseach. government would not even allow us to set this up Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): I welcome the were it not construed as being for thoseinstitutions minister's comment, and I hope, in the event that who are receiving a significant portion. I would say this resolution is defeated which is what I sense is if you wanted to define significant by degree, I going to happen, that that does in fact occur, and would suppose 70 percent and beyond of their the intent here was to change the "may" to "shall" to supportfrom the provincial treasury. ensure that categories of institutions are For example, small independent community­ representedby people selectedfrom their list. organized and operated heritage sites do not I think perhapsthe minister should recognize that qualify under theproposed foundations. Entitiesnot what this particular wording does is ensure that eligible under the proposed Crown agency categories of institutions are represented onlyafter foundation but which may be deemed to qualify the minister has designated that category is going under The Heritage Act could be interpreted as an to essentially kick in to this particular board of abuse of the federal guidelines governing Crown trustees. agency foundations. Mr. Manness: Mr. Chairperson, now that I have a Mr. Chairperson,in closing, ali i can tell members fuller understanding of the amendment, I do not is that we are really walking a very fine line here. have the same difficulty with it that I may havehad The federal government has told us that if we were earlier on. I am thinkingback to this morning when to designate to any degree in the act that in many I thought it was just a word change, but now that respects we would be in contravention of the right there is greater clarity to it, I do not have difficulty which allows an individual to donate a gift to the with accepting therecommendation. province. Even though the New Brunswick fegislationhas laidout some greater designations, Mr.Chairperson: Amendmen�ss.Clause 8 as it ultimately may be challenged by the federal amended-pass. Is it the will of the committeethat government, so that is why we have taken the the bill be reported as amended? approach thatwe have. Hopefully that answers the Mr. Manness: Mr. Chairperson, I would like to query of the member. finish off some of the business before we pass the Mr. Brian Palllster (Portage Ia Prairie): Just one bill. It will take exactly one minute. I want to respond point of clarification for the minister. When you say to a question put by Ms. Friesen withrespect to The the federal government, are you referring to tax Heritage ManitobaAct. The Heritage Manitoba Act authorities, that is, Revenue , in their was proclaimed, as the member probably knows, in interpretation of this? 1975 and was established to promote property of Mr. Manness: Most definitely. The federal historical, architectural, recreational, esthetic, or government is very much in control of the tax scenic interest to Manitobans. policies that we try to implement through the The Heritage Acthas remained dormant since its combined tax form. Many Manitobans believe that inception. The Heritage Act cannot extend the as a province we have the right and indeed the same 1 00-percent tax-deductible donation power to, at will, change the tax form. I ani here to entitlements to universities and hospitals that the assure all members, iri case they have "forgotten, proposed Crown agency foundation was able to the federal government ultimately accepts the provide. changes with respectto the combinedtax fotm. July 22, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 548

Mr.Chairperson: If there are no other comments, bill will be based noton implementation of when the shall the bill as amended be reported? [agreed]Is it session ends, but it will be based on proclamation. the will of the committee that I report the bill as Basically I have agreed, together with consulting amended?[agreed] with all the industry, that we will allow them three That completesconsideration ofBill 52. months to develop their advisory committee and six months to come forward with recommendations, • (1910) and that the bill will not be implemented. There are many complex problems that we are facing in the Bill 24-The Taxicab Amendment and industry, and we hope that the advisory board will Consequential Amendments Act then comeup withdealing with various issues. Mr. Chairperson: We will now move to public We also have agreed that between the advisory presentation on Bill 24. The list of persons board and all stakeholders involved, and I am registered to appear before the committee has talking oppositioncritics as well as myself, that we been distributedand a copy of that list is at theback will try and fill that vacancy with somebody that is of the room for the public to consult. If there is going to be acceptable to the various groups anyone that wishes to make a presentation and involved. whose name does not appear on that list, would they please identify themselves to staff at the back Mr. Chairperson, I just want to say that I think of the room and their name will be added to the list. everybody, you know, all political parties, certainly Also, I would ask if anyone has a written the taxicab industry, has a lot at stake here. Many presentation that they wish to have copied and problems andcomplexities of the issues that are at distributed,would they please identify staff. stake-it is going to take something that the representatives from the industry, including the Hon. AlbertDriedger (Ministerof Highways and Taxicab Board and myself, everybody-it will be a Transportation): Mr. Chairperson, with the real challenge to make this thing work. It is my concurrence of the committee, before we hear understanding also that the fact that opposition presenters, I have certaininformation that I would members have concerns about the amendments like to present to the committee. Based on four and the bill itself that there will be opposition to that, different hearings that we have had and listening to which is fair enough providing thatthere is a certain the concernsof the taxicabindustry, I have had the amount of trust among all the people involved in occasion to meet with the representatives of the this thing. industry, the opposition critics Daryl Reidancl Kevin Lamoureux, my colleague Marcel Laurendeau, and I feelconfident that all portionsof this, the people this afternoon we have come to an understanding. involved, the government, industry, all the stakeholders, that we can make thisthing work. It Basically, the understanding is that the representatives of the industry will establish an has been a very complex, difficult time for many people, including the board, including the industry. advisory board consisting of representation from We will try and see whether there is a better way of driver representati ves, owners and other doing it. stakeholders from hotels, chambers, City of Winnipeg, to deal with the many issues facing the I am asking the indulgenceof thecommittee. We industry and to make recommendations to the have many presenters. There is hope that we can Taxicab Board in future. take and make this thing work, so I feel that I want We expect thatthis advisory boardis going to be to take this opportunity to thank the ones who have established and functioning within three months, been involved in terms of trying to see whether we and ultimately in the next three months after that can develop a system that is going to be more there are going to be recommendations to the amenable in terms ofdealing withthe issues. Taxicab Board worked out between this advisory Mr. Chairperson, I just wanted to make these board. So theywill jointly make recommendations comments in the beginning because as you know for the representatives on the TaxicabBoard. we had many presenters. We have listened to four In returnfor the consideration, therehas beenan different hearings about the concerns that are understanding that we will pass Bill 24 with there, and we know there are problems. So if we amendments that were contemplated, and that the can proceed on that basis, thenI would like to take 549 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 22, 1993

and see whether we can maybe pass the bill and position. We can present the position thatwe think not proclaim it atthis time, and allow the system to and feel will adequately service the citizens of this see whether we can sincerely try and make it work. province, will resolve some of the problems that we Thank you. have within the industry, the problems that we have Mr. Chairperson: We will be required to go that are labour orientated, the problems that we throughthe list of presentersby name. Has anyone have that are financially orientated. else any comments before we proceed? If we work together, we can resolve some of the issues that we have. I think that we appreciate the We will proceed then with calling the names of the presenters listed. I would indicate to the fact that the efforts were put forward by all the particular parties in this particular case. We feel committee that those that are marked with an very confident that if we work together, we can asterisk havealready been called once. Whentheir resolve all of these issues. These issue are not just name is called, if they do not appear, they will our issues; they are all of our issues. automaticallydrop offthe list. Those thatare not so indicated will be calledtwice. We thank you very much today for giving us that opportunity, and we will deliver. We promise. Thank Sukhdeu Garcha, Benjamin Famakim, Brar you very much. Jagjit. pnterjection] Would you mind coming up to the microphone, please? Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much, Mr. Zurawczuk. Mr. Benjamin Famaklm (Private Citizen): Mr. Chairperson, ladies and gentlemen, please, on the Gordon Seaman, Satnam Khakn, Tony Panchhi, advice of the industry, I beg to withdraw my Satwant Brar, Ray Voskoboynik, A. Kester and presentationtoday. Thank you. George Meshe.

Mr.Chairperson: Thank you. I will read then again for the second time those remaining. Dhalla Navtej, Harnam Dhillon, Stevesidhu, Elizabeth Ogidan, P.W. Hendricks, Hardayan Sukhdeu Garcha. Rukhra, James Edmonds, Harpreet Bagri, Tarsem Mr. Sukhdeu Garcha (Private Citizen): I would Cheema, John Monks, Mr. Carrington, G.S. Nirula, just like to withdraw my presentation. I would also Anthony and Bola Olorundare, Emile Stelmack, like to thank the members of this committee for Susan Johnston, Jasdev S. Chahal, Narinder working hard. Uke Ed said, we will deliver. Thank Dhanjoon, Bob Watson, Paramjit Sran, Tom you. Johnston, Phil Walding. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much, Mr. Elizabeth Adams. Garcha. Ms. Elizabeth Adams (Private Citizen): The Benjamin Famakim-pnte�ection] Thank you. honourable minister, I just wish to not make a Elizabeth Ogidan, P.W. Hendricks, Paramjit statement. The industry has advised me not to. Sran, Tom Johnston, Phil Walding, Galvinder Thank you. Singh Gill, Plavinder Gill, Sammel J. Alkana, Ram Mr.Chairperson: Thank you very much. Sharma, Ajit Thindh, Harbhajan Dhaliwal, Jagrup Brar, Yadvinder Basrao, Harkewl Brar, Chahal Galvinder Singh Gill, Plavinder Gill, Sammel J. Deep Singh, Gordon Seaman, Satnam Khakn, Alkana, Ram Sharma, Ajit Thindh, Harbhajan Tony Pancchi, A. Dhaliwal, Jagrup Brar, Yadvinder Basrao, Harkewl Ray Voskoboynik, Kester, and Brar, Chahal Deep Singh, Ed Zurawzuk. George Meshe. Mr. Driedger: Mr. Chairperson, first of all, let me Mr. Zurawzuk, do you have a written say I want to compliment you on trying to express presentation you would like to have distributed? some of the names. I probably would have had the * (1920) same difficulty because people have sometimes Mr. Ed Zurawzuk (Private Citizen): No, I do not, difficulty expressing my name. just an oral one. I will be very brief. I just want to say that I have amendments here I would like to thank the minister, honourable . that basically were discussed with members of the members and others for giving the industry the industry from time to time. I would like to opportunity so that we can present our best recommend those amendments to the bill, again July 22, 1993 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 550

with the understanding thatit will not be proclaimed there was no consultation process taking place. I until we see whether we can make this system hope that this is the first step in the direction of an work. I know that members of the opposition had ongoing dialogue that will take place between various amendments that they wanted to put members of the taxicab industry and the Taxicab forward. We havethat understanding that wewill Board and the government of Manitoba. I think this give this system an opportunity to work. Before we is a positive first step in that direction. go into clause by clause, if the two critics of the I knowthat the advisoryboard the minister talked opposition want to make some comments I am about is going to be comprised of representatives prepared to have their comments on the record. of the industry and other stakeholders that will Mr.Chairperson: Before we do that,I would like to have, hopefully, a real role to play in this process declare public presentations officially closed on Bill now in advising the Taxicab Board and the 24. government of Manitoba on how to bring forward Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona):Clause by clause? positive recommendations that will help to improve the quality of service to the public in the city of Mr. Chairperson: Did you wish to make an Winnipeg. opening statement? I sense from the meetings that we had today that Mr.Reid: I guessI will do a closing statement. there was a genuine willingness to work to resolve Mr. Chairperson: Did you want to make an the outstanding issues that are there and the opening statement, Mr. Lamoureux? concerns that are out there. I hope that when the Mr. Reid: Sorry for the confusion at this point, I subcommittee, theadvisory body, getsestablished, thought we were going to move into the clause by and the minister has indicated it is going to be some clause firstand do closing statements. three months leeway that will be given so that they can establish that body, that they will then be able In that sense, I will put my comments on the to come forward with some positive recommen­ record now and then we can, if it is the will of the dations that will help to address the concerns that committee, move into a clause by clause afterthat. not only the industry has but members of the public I will express my concerns at this time. at large may have as well. We have moved into the fourth day of hearings I know the industry has indicated that they are on this legislation during the public presentation willing to work with all of the stakeholders, and I process, and I would like to start by thanking all of compliment them for the positive suggestions that the presenters that came out from the communities they have brought forward, not only in committee of the city of Winnipeg, members of the industry, process but at the meetings that we had late this who have come before us here and raised their afternoon. I think they were constructive concerns on this piece of legislation and in turn suggestions, and I compliment them for their have made myself and, I hope, other members of efforts. the committee aware of the difficulties that the industry currently faces andthe concernsthat they I know that the minister has made suggestions have had about various aspects of their industry here that he is willing to bring in an amendment that over the course of their years of experience will change the way the force of the bill-it will not working in the taxicab industry. be brought in until it is proclaimed. In that sense it will give the advisorybody and the Taxicab Board We heard many concerns relating to safety and the opportunity to move forward on the those concerns still remain. We have heard over suggestions.I think thatis a reasonable amount of and over again theconcerns of theindustry relating time, and I compliment notonly the members of the to the current financial difficulties that the industry industry but the minister as well for being findsitself in. I do not think thatthese concerns will somewhat flexible in realizing that there should be disappear. I hope that the committee, that the thatwillingness to work togetheron thepart of both minister hastalked aboutand that theindustry has parties.So Ithank the ministerand the members of agreed, can move forward withrecommendations. I theindustry for theirefforts on that. hope thatit will work towardssolving the safetyand financialconcerns of theindustry members. I know The concerns that we had, of course, we were that the industry members had talked about that looking forward to bringing in some amendments 551 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 22, 1993

on this piece of legislation, because we thought, the committee was able to capitalize on the and we still do, in principle that this legislation, if it presentations that were brought forward. We saw is proclaimed, will hurt the industry. We genuinely earlier this afternoon a considerable amount of believe that it would hurt the industry if it is consulti ng that was done with industry proclaimed, but w� are willing to give the members representatives and opposition critics. of the industry and the Taxicab Board and the The minister was able to come up with an idea stakeholders the opportunity to work together to that at least is giving the industry as a whole some resolve the issues. hope in terms of being able to have somereal input I hope that the minister will follow through, and I in terms of trying to turn the industry or to make the have confidence and trust that he will, and appoint industry as a whole that much better. I think that is a member of the current industry to sit on the very positive, because the public hearing process Taxicab Board. Now, I am sure there are ways­ in committees, as everyone knows around this members of the committee have said that there is table, sometimes can be very frustrating when we potential for conflict-of-interest situations. I think do not get amendments or it does not seem that that those can be resolved. Each member of this things are getting done, especially from an legislature from time to time has to decide whether opposition perspective, I guess, more so than a there is conflict of interest on specific pieces of government. When issues come before us it is very legislation that we bring before us. I think members easy for us to play politics with an issue. This of the taxicab industry are responsible enough to afternoon, you know, I participated, as the member recognize once they are appointed to the Taxicab for Transcona (Mr. Reid) and the member for St. Board that they should withdraw themselves from Norbert (Mr.laurendeau) and the minister himseH, any of that discussion or any voting on those in putting politics to the side and to deal with the matters. I have confidence in the industry that they issue at hand. We had conversations with will be able to do that. representatives from the industry that were doing So I think with that, Mr. Chairperson, while we the same thing. Putting the politics and are opposedin principle to thislegislation, and I will self-interests aside, we talked about the industry as indicate thatwe will be voting against the legislation a whole and how important it was that it was in principle, we are willing to allow members of the necessary to do just that. Out of those discussions, industry and the Taxicab Board and the we have this advisory board that is going to be stakeholders and the government of Manitoba to created that will help in terms of promoting or work to resolve the issues that are out there. I think developing the industry so we will have a healthier it is reasonable to allow that six-month period of and stronger industry 12 months from now. time to resolve those issues if there is real The member for Transcona made reference to progress. As the minister has stated in our the board appointments and the minister was very meetings, we can continue to withhold sympathetic to that. In fact, we are going to see proclamation of this legislation as long as there is something that I am sure everyone will be able to progress being made. live with. I think the member for Transcona-1 know I thank members of the taxicab industry for their he was going to be moving an amendment and so efforts to this point and wish them every best wish was I, and we both had the same amendment and success in their efforts to resolve the concerns suggesting that a member from the industry should that they have. Thank you. be on the board. There is a way in which we can accomplish something of that nature, but instead of * (1930) us talking about thatnow, I think it is imperative that Mr.Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Chairperson, the advisory board itseH get together and look at I am very encouraged in terms of what has the whole act and see what amendments should be transpired over the last couple of days. You know, brought forward, because I know in the discussions we can actually start off by thanking the number of that we had as a group of seven or eight individuals presenters that came forward to indicate to all the earlier today, there were a lot of good ideas anda committee members and to the chairperson of the lot of positive feelings towards, let us get this Taxicab Board some of the heartfelt feelings that industry back on track, and let us see if we can they have about the industry as a whole. I think that possibly even forgive some of the personalities that July22, 1993 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 552

have beeninvolved in thepast and so forth, and if, and to be an important part of their communityand in fact, we can ultimatelyprevent this bill from being Manitoba's economy. proclaimed. That is ultimately what we want to be The other reason this experience has been so able to do is prevent this bill from being proclaimed, important and worthwhile for me, and I am sure for because like the NDP oppositioncritic, on principle, everyone, is the way it is now ending with one of we too do not support thebill. those rare moments in our Legislature when we I trust and I have faith in the industry in terms of actually find a way to collaborate and compromise being able to come forward and ensuring that this and find consensus despite our political bill is not proclaimed, but only time will tell. I feel a differences. I cannot tell you enough how lot better about the process, and I am very significant it is for me to bea part of this process encouraged by thequality of individuals thatcame and to end a fairly long, often confrontational, before this committee and shared with us their period in our history with thiskind of collaboration experiences. I look forward to hearing from the and willingness to achieve some good, no matter advisory committee as to what they feel is what it takes. necessaryand wait for thegovernment to actupon So I just wanted, with that, Mr. Chairperson, to the advisory board's recommendation. Having said indicate, especially to the minister and to the two those few words, I am quite prepared to go into critics, theircontribution to this important part of our clause by clause of thebill. economy, and to thank them all for trying to work Ms. Judy Wasylycla-Lels (St. Johns): Mr. towards a compromise and a peaceful solution. Chairperson, I am wondering if you would just Thank you. permit me a few words now while we are at this Mr.Chairperson: Thank you. If there are no other stage on the bill. I would just like to add a few comments, we will move to- comments on record in my capacity as supporting Mr. Gerry McAlpine (Sturgeon Creek): Mr. role to our critic for this bill. has been a long four It Chairperson, my comments are very brief, and I days, but for me and I think for everyone around have spent enough time at this committee to thistable, it has been quite an experience, quite an appreciate the concern of this industry in our enlightening educational experience. For me province and the impact and the importance that personally, these last four dayswill stand out in my these members serve in our communities. I would memories of this place as I am about to leave after like to-1 think it wouldbe remiss not to at least put seven years in this building, and it stands out for a this on the record that I am encouragedby what we couple of reasons. have achieved here as a committee, and puttingall I just wanted to indicate two reasons I was politics aside I think that this would not happen moved by this committee and the process around without a minister with the understanding and this bill. All of us were impressed by the individuals sincerity that he has approached this serious who came forward with their real human stories. concern. I think thathe has really approached the They took a lot of courage to come here, and they issue in trying to serve this problem and the also lost dollars, important income, and they lost members of the Taxi Board and the taxi industry, time with their family. All of them came to share and I think that we will all benefit from this. I would what kind of life itis to bein the industry, and for me just like to commend the membersof thecommittee it was very informative andeducational. and the minister for the sincere efforts that they have put forth in solving this very serious issue. I had no idea of thekind ofdanger onthe job that Thank you. these individuals face, the kind of threats, some racism thatthey must deal with. I had no idea of the Mr. Chairperson: Thank you. risks involved, and I had no idea of the economic * (1940) situation facingmany of those in theindustry. Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson):Mr. Chairperson, I saw also incredible human integrity and spirit in I have only a few comments. Much of what I would this whole period of public presentations, people havesaid has been said in terms of thecontribution determined, no matterwhat happened,not to go on of people at the table, but I think that we must welfare, but to keep finding jobs no matter what emphasize the fact that in this province, as was they had to do in orderto provide for their families, demonstrated by this committee process, the 553 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 22, 1993

people are the influence. I think the people that I give them credit. The people who made came before the committee,from the first tothe last presentations to this committee from the first presenter, really are the ones that are responsible presenter to the lastare the reasonwhy we have at for what we are reaching today, which, I think, is an least a beginning if not an end onthis issue. important compromise, a start. It is not the end of Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. this issue. Hopefully, some of the issues that are Mr.Chairperson: Thank you. If there are no other outstandingcan be dealt with, but I want to give full comments, we will proceed to clause-by-clause recognitionto thepeo ple who are really responsible consideration, and I would ask the committee's here today. It is not us at the table or those of us indulgence, since we have a number of that were at the other tables at various different amendments, that we move slowly and times, but the many people, and let us be direct methodically. aboutit, the many taxi drivers who came before this Shall Clauses 1 to 4 inclusive pass? committee. An Honourable Member: No. In a way, this was an education process for everyone, and if we can at least now have a better Mr.Chairperson: On division? understanding of the reality of thetaxi industry and Some Honourable Members:On division. the reality facing taxi drivers in the city, I think that Mr. Chairperson: Those clauses are accordingly is a major contribution. passed on division. I find it ironic herebeing an MLA from Thompson, Clause 5. thatperhaps because I do end up taking the taxis in Mr. Driedger: Mr. Chair, we have a series of Winnipeg so much as I do and having talked to amendments that basically were worked out with many taxidrivers, that, as was pointed out in some the people from the industry over a period of time. I of the presentations, each taxi driver has a story to would like to move them as we go along and then tell. ask for approval for the amended versions. An Honourable Member: And they are all about I move Steve Ashton. THAT the proposed subsection 4(1), as set out in Mr. Ashton: Well, they are not necessarily all subsection 5(1) of the Bill, be amended by striking aboutme, I am not saying that. What I am saying is out "directly or indirectlyft. thatthey all have stories to tell. The pointof what I [Frenchversion] am saying is that we have to break down some of the barriers and we have to recognize and Osten to Is est propose que le paragraphe 4(1 ), enonce au people. paragraphe 5(1) du projet de loi, soit amende par suppression de "directementou indirectemenr. I have listened to a lot of stories from people in the taxis that I have taken, and that is why, as I Motionagreed to. said,it is ironic I am theMLA for Thompsonand this Mr. Driedger: Mr. Chairperson, I move bill does not affect taxi drivers in-[interjection] THAT subsection5(2) of the Bill be struck out and Well, the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) says, the following substituted: for now. I am worried. I do notwant thisbill to affect 5(2) Subsection 4(2) is repealed and the following my constituents in Thompson. I hope that was just is substituted: an off-the-cuffremark. Penalty I have got to know people on a personal basis 4(2) Any person who contravenes this section is and quite frankly, as was pointed out, the stories guilty of an offence and is liable on summary that people work 50, 60, 70, 80 hours a week in conviction conditions that most people would not accept in (a) for thefirst offence, to a fineof not lessthan terms of threat to personal safety, for wages that $100. and not more than$500.; and are often less than the minimum wage, Mr. (b) for a subsequent offence, to a fine of not Chairperson, I am gladwe have reachedsome sort · less than $250. andnot more than$1 ,000. of accommodation today. It is not the end of this discussion, it is only thebeginning. (Frenchversion] July 22, 1993 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 554

II est propose que le paragraphe 5(2) du projet de b) en cas de recidive, une amende d'au moins loi soit remplace par ce qui suit: 100 $ et d'au plus500 $. 5(2) Le paragraphe 4(2) estremplace par ce qui Motionagreed to. suit: Mr.Chairperson: Clause 10 as amended-pass; Peine Shall Clause 11 pass? 4(2) Quiconque contrevient au present article An Honourable Member:On division. commet une infraction et encourt, sur declaration Mr.Chairperson: Clause11 is accordinglypassed de culpabilite par procedure sommaire: on division. a) une amende d'au moins 100 $ et d'au plus Shall Clause 12 pass? 500$; Mr.Driedger: Mr. Chair,I move b) en cas de recidive, une amende d'au moins THAT the proposed clause14(1.2)(c), as set out in 250 $ et d'au plus 1 000 $. section 12 of the Bill, be amended by striking out Motionagreed to. "left in custody" and substituting "if the holder

* (1950) cannot be found, leftin thecustody". Mr. Chairperson: Clause 5 as amended-pass. (French version] Shall Clauses6 to 9 inclusive pass? II est propose que l'alinea 14(1.2)c), enonce a !'article 12 du projet de loi, soit amende par An HonourableMember: On division. adjonction, apres "de Ia Commission", de "si ce Mr. Chairperson: Those clauses are accordingly demier est introuvable". passed on division. ShallClause 10 pass? Motion agreed to. Mr.Driedger: Mr. Chairperson, I move Mr.Driedger: Mr. Chair, I move THATsubsection 1 0(2) ofthe Bill be struckout and THAT theproposed subsection 14(1.3}, as set out thefollowing substituted: in section 12 of the Bill, be struck out and the (1 0(2) Subsection 11 (3) is repealed and the following substituted: followingis substituted: When notice Is given Penalty 14(1.3) A notice is deemed to be given 11(3) Any person who drives a taxicab withoutfirst (a) on the thirdday after the date of mailing if obtainingthe licencereferred to in subsection (1) is sent by registered mail as provided under guilty of an offence and is liable on summary clause (12)(b); or conviction (b) on the day when it is left in the custody of (a) for thefirst offence, to a fineof not lessthan an adult person as provided under clause $50. and not more than $250.; and (1.2)(c); (b) for a subsequent offence, to a fine of not unless the holder of the licence or permit to whom less than$100. and not more than$500. it was addressed establishes that he or she, acting (French version] in good faith, did not receive the notice untila later date, through absence, accident, illness or other II estpropose que le paragraphe 10(2) du projet de cause beyond his or her control. loi soit remplace par ce qui suit: [French version] 10(2) Le paragraphe 11(3) est remplace par cequi II est propose quele paragraphe 14(1.3), enonce a suit: I'article 12 du projetde loi, soitrem place par cequi Peine suit: 11 (3) Quiconque conduit un taxi sans avoir obtenu Expeditionde l'avls auparavantle permismentionne au paragraphe(1) 14(1.3) L'avis est repute signifie au moment vise a commet une infraction et encourt, sur declaration l'alinea a) ou b), a moinsque le titulalre du permis deculpabilite par procedure sommaire: ou de Ia licence a qui i1 etait destine ne demontre a) une amende d'au moins 50$ et d'au plus que agissantde bonnefoi, il ne l'a pas requ dansle 250$; delai prevu en raison de son absence, d'un 555 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 22, 1993

accident, d'une maladieou pour toute autre raison II est propose que le paragraphe 19(3), enonce au independantede sa volonte: paragraphe 17(3) du projet de loi, soit amendepar a) le troisieme jour suivant Ia datede mise a Ia substitution, a "Les•, de "Sous reserve du poste s'il est expedie par courrier paragraphe 14(1.8), les·. recommande conformementa l'alinea (1.2)b) Motionagreed to. b) le jour ou il est remis a un adulte Mr.Driedger: Mr. Chair, I move conformementa l'alinea (12)c). THATthe proposed subsection19(6), as set out in Motion agreed to. subsection 17(4) of the Bill, be struck out and the Mr.Driedger: I move following substituted: THAT proposed clause 14(1.8)(c), as set out in CompleUon of proceeding section 12of theBill, be amendedby adding "if the 19(6} Where a quorum exists at the holder cannot be found, • before "left in the commencement ofa meeting of or hearing or other custody•. proceeding before the board, and thereafter a [Frenchversion] member thereof dies, resigns or for any reason becomes incapable of acting, the remaining II est propose que l'alinea 14(1.8)c), enonce a members may complete the meeting, hearing or !'article 12 du projet de loi, soit amende par proceeding or any adjoumment thereof; and any adjonction, apres "Commission•, de "si ce demier decision with respect to that meeting, hearing or est introuvabte•. proceeding made by a majority of the remaining Motion agreed to. members shall be deemed to be a decision of the board as if a quorum had been present. Mr. Driedger:Mr. Chair,I move [Frenchversion] THAT the proposed subsection 19(3) as set out in subsection17(3) ofthe Bill be amended by striking II est propose que le paragraphe 19(6) enonce au out "Every• andsubstituting "Subject to subsection paragraphe 17(4) du projet de loi, soit remplace par 14(1.8) every-. ce qui suit: [Frenchversion] Achevement de Ia procedure II est propose que le paragraphe 19(3), enonce au 19(6} Dans le cas oo il y a quorum au debut d'une paragraphe 17(3) du projet de loi, soitamende par reunion ou d'une audience de Ia Commissionou de substitution, a "Les", de "Sour reserve du toute autre procedure ayant lieu devant elle et ou, paragraphe 14(1.8), les ". subsequemment, un membre decade, demissionne ou est empeche d'agir pour toute Mr. Chairperson: First, shall Clause 12 as autre raison, les autres membres peuventmener a amendedpass? terme Ia reunion, !'audience ou Ia procedure ou An HonourableMember: On division. l'une quelconque de ses reprises, auquel cas toute decision rendue par Ia majorite des membres qui Mr. Chairperson: On division. Shall Clauses 13 to restent relativement a cette reunion, a cette 16 inclusivepass? audience ou a cette procedure est reputee une An Honourable Member:On division. decision rendue par Ia Commission comme si le Mr. Chairperson: Those clauses are accordingly quorum etait present. passed on division. Motion presented. Shall Clause 17 pass? Mr. Driedger: Mr. Chair, I will now move that one Point of Order again. Mr. Reid: On a point of order here, Mr. THATthe proposed subsection 19(3), as set out in Chairperson. I fail to see how this amendment subsection17(3) of the Bill, be amendedby striking changesthe contentof the existingclause in there. out"Every- and substituting"Subject tosubsection With the wording in the amendment showing "for 14(1.8), every•. any reason; doesthat not provide the same intent [Frenchversion] as the original clause? July 22, 1993 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 556

Mr. Driedger: Mr. Chair, my chairmanof the board guilty of an offence and is liable on summary advisesthat thisis thesame form thatis usedin the conviction Motor Transport Board, and so, you know, I can (a) for the first offence, to a fine of not more read it again: Where a quorum exists at the than $250.; and commencementof a meeting of or hearing or other (b) for a subsequent offence, to a fine of not proceeding before the board, and thereafter a more than$500. member thereofdies. Payment of fares and costs This is thesame wording that is usedin theMotor 21(2) When a court or justiceconvicts a person of Transport Board, where basically we try and be an offence under subsection (1), in addition to and consistentin terms of who the people are that are at thetime of imposing any fine, the court or justice dealing withit. (a) shall order the person to pay the proper *** fare to the driver or owner of the taxicab if it has not beenpaid; and Mr.Chairperson: Shall the amendment pass? (b) may assess costs against the person An HonourableMember: On division. payable to the driver or ownerof thetaxicab. Mr. Chairperson: The amendment is passed on Order fliedIn court division. 21(3) The driver or owner of thetaxicab may file in Clause 17 as amended-pass. the Court of Queen's Bench of Manitoba a certified copy of an order made under subsection (2) and, Shall Clause 18 pass? on being filed, the order may be enforced in the An HonourableMember: On division. same manner as a judgment of thatCourt. Mr.Chairperson: Clause 18 is passedon division. [Frenchversion) Clause 19. II est propose que !'article 19 du projet de loi soit Mr. Driedger: Mr. Chairperson, this is a section rem place par ce qui suit: that deals with people who do notpay their fares. In 19 l'article21 est remplace par ce qui suit: consultationwith the industry and thechairman of Peine pour non-paiementdu prix the board,we would actuallylike to havethe rest of 21(1) Quiconque prendun taxi a l'egard duquel un the bill come into effect on proclamation, but this is permis a ete delivre en application de Ia presente a section that we would like to have come into loi et, sur demandefaite a Ia fin de Ia course, omet effect when the legislationis passed. d'en payer le prix au chauffeurou au proprietairedu This deals with the penalty for nonpayment of taxi commet une infraction et encourt, sur fares, aboutwhich my chairman consulted with the declarationde culpabilit8 parprocedure sommaire: industry members just now, and I think it is a) une amendemaximale de 250 $; something they feel very concernedabout. I would b) en casde recidive, une amende maximale ask indulgence of the committee that this is a the de 500$. portion that will come into effect when the bill gets passedin the House.The restis going to be under Pal,ment de Ia course et dM frals judlclalres proclamation. 21(2) En plus d'imposerune amende a Ia personne qu'il declare coupable d'une infraction visee au If thatis agreeable, then I move paragraphe (1), le tribunal ou le juge de paix, au THAT section 19 of the Bill be struck out and the moment ou il impose I'amende: following substituted: a) lui ordonne de payer le prix de Ia course au 19 Section 21 is repealed and the following is chauffeur ou au proprietaire du taxi s'il ne l'a substituted: pas deja fait; Penalty for non-paymentof fares b) peut lui imposer des frais et depens 21(1) Any person who engages a taxicab that is payables au chauffeur ou au proprietaire du licensed under thisAct andwho, on demandbeing taxi. made at the termination of the trip, fails to pay the Ordonnance depose. au tribunal proper fare to the driver or owner of the taxicab, is 21(3) le chauffeur ou le proprietaire du taxi peut 557 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 22, 1993

deposer a Ia Cour du Bane de Ia Reine une copie [Frenchversion) certifieeconforme d'une ordonnance rendue par le II est propose que !'article 21 du projet de loi soit tribunal ou le juge de paix en application du rem place par ce qui suit: paragraphe (2). Une foisdeposee, !'ordonnance peut etre executee comme s'il s'agissait d'un Entree en vlgueur jugement du tribunal en question. 21(1) Sous reserve du paragraphe (2), Ia presente loi entre en vigueur a Ia date fixee par * (2000) proclamation. Motion agreedto . Sanction Mr.Chairperson: Clause 19 as amended-pass; 21(2) !'article 19 entre en vigueur le jour de Ia Clause 20-pass. sanctionde Ia presenteloi. Clause 21. Motionagreed to. Mr.Driedger: Mr. Chairperson, I move Mr. Chairperson: Clause 21 as amended-pass. THAT section 21 of the Bill be struck out and the Mr.Driedger: Mr. Chairperson, I move following substituted: THAT the French version of the title of the bill. be Coming Intoforc e amended by striking out •a d'autres lois" and 21 This Act comes into force on a day fixed by substituting• a une autre loi". proclamation. [Frenchversion] [Frenchversion] II est propose que Ia version franc;aise du titre du II est propose que !'article 21 du projet de loi soit projet de loi soit amendee par substitution, a •a rem place par ce qui suit: d'autres lois", de •a une autre loi". Entreeen vlgueur Motion agreed to. 21 La presente loi entre en vigueur a Ia date fixee Mr. Driedger: [German spoken] par proclamation. Mr. Chairperson, I move I ask the indulgence of the committee for a THAT Legislative Counsel be authorizedto change secondhere. all section numbers and internal references Mr. Chairperson, we have a little technical necessaryto carry out the amendmentsadopted by problem here. I wonder if we could have the this committee. indulgence of the committee for a few minutes to [Frenchversion) get certainthings straightened out here. II est propose que le conseiller legislatif soit Mr. Chairperson: I will declare a five-minute autorise a modifier les numeros d'article et les recess. renvois internes de faqon a donner effet aux The committee recessed at8:01 p.m. amendements adoptes par le Comite. Mr. Chairperson, I move all of these AfterRecess amendmentsin EngRsh as well as French. The committee resumed at 8:04 p.m. Motionagreed to. Mr. Driedger: Mr. Chairperson, I thank the Mr.Chairperson: Shall the Preamble pass? committee for their indulgence. I want to try and An Honourable Member: Division. move that last section one more time. Mr. Chairperson: The Preamble is accordingly THAT section21 of the Bill be struck out and the passed on division. followingsubstituted: Shall theTrtle be passed? Coming Intoforc e An HonourableMember: Division. 21{1) Subject tosubsection (2), this Act comes into forceon a day fixedby proclamation. Mr.Chairperson: The Trtle is accordinglypassed on division. Royal Assent Shall the bill as amended be reported? 21{2) Section 19 comes into force on the day this Act receives royal assent. An Honourable Member:Division. July22, 1993 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 558

Mr.Chairperson: That is agreed on division. point out just briefly for those whohave nothad the experience of chairing these meetings, that we do Mr. Driedger: Before we conclude the hearings, I have a rule book, but it is a little bit like referees in just want to make a final comment on the fact that a hockey game-they work from the same rule there has been co-operation·in terms of what we have tried to do here.This was the easy part.The book, youbut would not know it from timeto time. challenge now is to make itwork, and I look forthe On behalf of the committee, I sincerely thank support of all people involved, includingopposition Bonnie Greschuk for her assistance. members,in terms of tryingto make thisthing work. Is it the will of thecommittee thatI report the bill This has been very difficult, and I thinkthere has as amended? been good co-operation and I thank everybody. Some Honourable Members:Agreed. Thank you. An Honourable Member:Agreed on division. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Minister, and I would like to echo your sentiments and also add Mr. Chairperson: Agreed on division. Thank you the thanks of the committee to our Clerk who has very much. Thatcompletes consideration of Bill 24. very carefully guided us through considerable Committeerise. difficulty with this and other bills. I would like to COMMITTEE ROSE AT: 8:08 p.m.