Vol. 605 Wednesday, No. 4 29 June 2005

DI´OSPO´ IREACHTAI´ PARLAIMINTE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES

DA´ IL E´ IREANN

TUAIRISC OIFIGIU´ IL—Neamhcheartaithe (OFFICIAL REPORT—Unrevised)

Wednesday, 29 June 2005.

Leaders’ Questions ………………………………1037 Ceisteanna—Questions …………………………………1051 Requests to move Adjournment of Da´il under Standing Order 31 ………………1060 Order of Business ………………………………1061 Treaty of Amsterdam: Motion……………………………1078 Planning and Development Regulations: Motion ……………………1979 Ceisteanna—Questions (resumed) Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs Priority Questions ……………………………1092 Other Questions ……………………………1112 Adjournment Debate Matters ……………………………1119 Planning and Development Regulations: Motion (resumed) …………………1120 Veterinary Practice Bill 2004 [Seanad]: Report Stage (resumed) and Final Stage …………1131 International Interests in Mobile Equipment (Cape Town Convention) Bill 2005 [Seanad]: Second Stage ………………………………1150 Committee and Remaining Stages ………………………1157 Driver Testing and Standards Authority Bill 2004: Second Stage (resumed) …………1160 Private Members’ Business G8 Summit and Overseas Development Aid: Motion (resumed) ……………1173 Driver Testing and Standards Authority Bill 2004: Second Stage (resumed) ……………………………1205 Referral to Select Committee …………………………1222 Health and Social Care Professionals Bill 2004 [Seanad]: Second Stage (resumed) …………1223 Adjournment Debate Ombudsman for Children……………………………1227 Migrant Workers ………………………………1229 Commercial Payments Directive …………………………1233 Probation and Welfare Service …………………………1236 Questions: Written Answers ……………………………1241 1037 1038

DA´ IL E´ IREANN state when the Government will make this announcement. ———— The Taoiseach: As I stated previously, I would De´ Ce´adaoin, 29 Meitheamh 2005. like Ireland to be the number one subscriber to Wednesday, 29 June 2005. overseas development aid in the world. We lie at about number seven or eight in the world. This is ———— an extraordinary achievement for this country and everybody should be proud of it. We sub- Chuaigh an i gceannas ar scribe the better part of \600 million towards 10.30 a.m. overseas development aid, more than the entire capital programme for health in this country. ———— Every year we are increasing our overseas development aid package by a vast amount. In Paidir. the last budget, the first by the Minister for Fin- Prayer. ance, Deputy Cowen, a \1.8 billion package for overseas development aid for the next three years ———— was outlined. I am thankful that we are now able to help NGOs to do their job. They cannot do it without Leaders’ Questions. the money. I am proud that under the Govern- Mr. Kenny: As the Taoiseach will be aware, the ments I have led, we have increased our overseas main issue to dominate tomorrow’s G8 summit in development aid contribution from \150 million Scotland will be the effort to solve the plight of to over \600 million. With the packages that have the people of Africa. It is worth bearing in mind been announced, this will amount to approxi- that, in every ten minutes we speak in the House mately \700 million by 2007. today, 60 children will have died of a vaccine-pre- ventable illness and 80 babies under a month will Mr. McCormack: Much short of the promised die worldwide. A woman in the developing world amount. will die every second in childbirth. Every 30 seconds a child dies of malaria. Six thousand The Taoiseach: I would have liked to have—— people will die today from an AIDS-related ill- ness. By the end of this year, just like every year, Mr. Gormley: The Taoiseach should just whooping cough will have killed 300,000 children, answer the question. and diarrhoea will have killed 600,000 more under the age of five. The Taoiseach: ——had the ability to reach the The Taoiseach and his Government obviously target of 0.7% but—— cannot prevent these tragedies from occurring. However, I am annoyed that in September 2000, Mr. J. O’Keeffe: Why did the Taoiseach make with no election in sight, he made a solemn com- the promise? mitment to the UN Assembly, before the eyes of The Taoiseach: ——because of growth levels the world, that the Government would achieve and all the necessary adjustments, we would have the UN target of 0.7% of GDP by 2007. He made had to be contributing sums of approximately this commitment based on the information avail- \200 million to achieve it. able to him with the consent of his Government and on behalf of the people of Ireland. When it Mr. Connaughton: It did not—— became politically expedient for the Government to break that promise, it did so. The Taoiseach: I am trying to answer the This country can be very proud of the outstand- Deputy’s leader’s question. ing work done by our NGOs which dispense aid all over the world. It is a pity that our reputation Mr. Gormley: He is not answering it. in the eyes of the world is now being besmirched by the fact the Taoiseach broke the promise he (Interruptions). made on behalf of the people and the Govern- ment. Some time ago, he stated in the House that An Ceann Comhairle: Allow the Taoiseach, his job was to answer questions when asked. In please. light of this, let me ask him a question now: when will this Government achieve the Taoiseach’s The Taoiseach: The Deputies should respect commitment to donate 0.7% of GDP in overseas their leader and let me answer the question. development aid? Why has he postponed making The reality is that this country has slipped back a decision on this matter until some time before far less than any other country. The United States September, at which time the House will not be of America, the biggest economy in the world, sitting and at which time there will be no oppor- has no target. tunity to raise these matters with him? If the Taoiseach’s job is to answer questions, he should Ms Burton: I do not believe it. 1039 Leaders’ 29 June 2005. Questions 1040

The Taoiseach: The United Kingdom—— lying on trolleys around the country yesterday? What does his word mean in terms of the commit- Mr. F. McGrath: George Bush. He is in touch ment given for 2,000 extra gardaı´? The Minister with the world. for Justice, Equality and Law Reform is smirking but he should have been listening to the public An Ceann Comhairle: Allow the Taoiseach to speak in Raheny last night. contribute without interruption. What does the Taoiseach’s word mean in terms of broken promises on class sizes which the cur- (Interruptions). rent Minister for Education and Science now terms a noble aspiration? What does it mean The Taoiseach: Soundbites get in the way of when the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law facts. People hate facts in this House. Reform says the release of the murderers of Detective Garda Jerry McCabe will be the happ- Mr. F. McGrath: George Bush. iest day of his life? What does the Taoiseach’s word mean in terms of the 34 stealth taxes The Taoiseach: The United Kingdom, which is imposed on consumers of this country? being held up in lights at present in respect of the G8 summit — I wish them well — has a lower An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy must target than ours. It is not contributing the kinds restrict his questions to topical issues. of resources we are contributing, nor has it made the kinds of strides we have made. France is Mr. Kenny: This morning we listened on radio totally ambivalent. This country—— to the reprehensible conduct of the Minister for Foreign Affairs who talked about decisions with Mr. Gormley: The Taoiseach broke his regard to the target of 0.7% as against seatbelts promise. on school buses. (Interruptions). An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy’s time has An Ceann Comhairle: Deputy Gormley should concluded. The Chair is on its feet. Leaders’ note the question was posed by , of Questions are confined to one issue and not a which he is not a member. number of issues.

The Taoiseach: This country should be very (Interruptions). proud, as I am, of its record on overseas develop- ment aid. Mr. Kenny: I thank the Ceann Comhairle for reminding me of this. The central question the Deputies: Hear, hear. value of the Taoiseach’s word. Promise after promise and commitment after commitment have Mr. Gormley: The Taoiseach broke his been broken. How can we believe anything from promise. this Government when, in respect of the poorest people in the world, the Taoiseach stood up in The Taoiseach: I look forward to the discussion front of the eyes and nations of the world and on the millennium goals in September and to said we would achieve our target by 2007? Not reporting that Ireland, which has 1% of the popu- only has he let down the poorest in the world, he lation of Europe, can stand as one of the highest has let down people here at home. Promises and in Europe in terms of its ability and achievement commitments have no value because his word no regarding overseas development aid. longer counts for anything.

Deputies: Hear, hear. Mr. Gormley: The Taoiseach should answer the question. Mr. Gormley: The Taoiseach broke his promise. An Ceann Comhairle: I will have to ask Deputy Gormley to leave the House if he inter- Mr. J. O’Keeffe: It was a breach of a promise. rupts again.

Mr. Kenny: I am not talking about France, the The Taoiseach: We have delivered substan- United Kingdom or the United States but about tially to overseas development aid. Some \150 the Taoiseach, who made a solemn commitment million had been delivered when I came to before the eyes of the world that the Government power, and this figure is heading towards \700 would achieve the target of 0.7% of GDP by million which is a huge achievement. There has 2007. The Taoiseach knew the implications when been a commitment of \1.8 billion over a three he made that commitment and was promised year period which helps NGOs do their job, before that he would get a seat on the Security enables them to provide services and allows us to Council. What is the value of his word? What go into new countries such as East Timor. does his word mean? What did it mean in terms Unlike most places in the world, Ireland should of the health services where \50 billion has been be very proud that it does not have tied aid. spent since 1997 and yet there were 257 patients Former President Clinton said he would like the 1041 Leaders’ 29 June 2005. Questions 1042

US to have done half of what we did. It is amaz- came up with the idea of spending \52 million on ing that people all over the world recognise what electronic voting, and the subsequent Minister, Ireland has done for overseas aid. Yes, we Deputy Cullen, decided against all advice to decreased our percentage but I did not know in implement it. The behaviour of former Minister August 2000, when the economy was growing by for Health and Children, Deputy Martin, with 11%, that it would only grow by 1% a year later. regard to the nursing homes issue would, accord- However, we still continued to provide untied aid ing to the former Ombudsman, make previous at a rate not achieved by anybody else in the Ministers squirm in their graves. Ministers of world. State, Deputies Callely and Tim O’Malley, man- Deputy Michael D. Higgins speaks so much aged to read the brief but did absolutely nothing. and so well on the issue. However, he must Then there is the issue of the former and current remember what his Government did. It reversed Ministers for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, the figure. Deputies O’Donoghue and McDowell.

Mr. M. Higgins: The Taoiseach was the Mini- (Interruptions). ster for Finance at that time and was always against it. Mr. Rabbitte: Fianna Fa´il backbenchers will like what I have to say. In August 2000, the Act- The Taoiseach: The Deputy’s party had the ing Commissioner, Mr. Noel Conroy, sent a secret worst record with regard to overseas aid. It was report based on the Carty investigation to the absolutely terrible and did nothing. then Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy O’Donoghue. It was a shocking Mr. M. Higgins: I would not go down that road. 37-page summary of what Assistant Com- missioner Carty had uncovered in Donegal. What (Interruptions). did the Minister, Deputy O’Donoghue, do about it? Absolutely nothing. An Ceann Comhairle: The Taoiseach without In November 2001, the then Minister, on the interruption. The Taoiseach should direct his advice of the Attorney General, voted down a remarks through the Chair. motion from the , Fine Gael and the calling for an inquiry into this affair. (Interruptions). The current Minister, Deputy McDowell, came in last week and said if they had known the facts Mr. M. Higgins: On a point of order—— earlier they would have acted earlier. He then went on to accuse me of bluffing when I told him An Ceann Comhairle: There will be no point what was in the Conroy report, saying I had not of order on Leaders’ Questions. read it or seen it. I have the report here now, entitled An investigation carried out by Assistant Mr. M. Higgins: The Taoiseach has chosen to Commissioner Kevin Carty into allegations that mislead the House on development aid. He was members of An Garda Sı´ocha´na attached to the always against it. That is the truth. Donegal division engaged in criminal and unethi- cal behaviour in the execution of their pro- An Ceann Comhairle: Deputy Michael D. fessional duties between 1994 and 1998. Higgins should resume his seat. An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy’s two Mr. M. Higgins: He wrote it in his election minutes have concluded. programme and the social partnership programme. Mr. Rabbitte: Every time I raise the issue, the The Taoiseach: I am confident this country will Minister scurries up the back stairs to brief the remain at the highest level, and will be one of the media and muddy the waters. I hope when he first to achieve the target of 0.7%. scurries up today that he brings the report with him and gives the media a copy. Contrary to what (Interruptions). he tried to suggest yesterday, I have seen the report and it would cause the hair on the back of Mr. M. Higgins: You did better than your any reasonable person’s neck to stand up. It is friend, President Bush. reprehensible and indefensible to think that Deputies O’Donoghue and McDowell contrived (Interruptions). to do nothing about it.

Mr. Rabbitte: Without any justification, the Mr. McDowell: That is another untruth. The Taoiseach proposes to call the House to rise on 1 Deputy is shameless. July. The Government will limp off into the sum- mer recess with the ministerial debris of the (Interruptions). parliamentary year still on the front bench. The former Minister for the Environment, Heritage An Ceann Comhairle: I ask the Minister to and Local Government, Deputy , allow the Taoiseach without interruption. 1043 Leaders’ 29 June 2005. Questions 1044

The Taoiseach: I will go back over some of the approved the establishment of a tribunal of facts again. inquiry and the drafting of a Bill to amend the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Act to facilitate Mr. Rabbitte: We want the real facts. the holding of such an inquiry. As I have said a number of times, there was The Taoiseach: In February 1999, Assistant no delay or holding back. The cases were being Commissioner Carty was appointed by the Garda proceeded with and it is the role of the Director Commissioner to investigate allegations that of Public Prosecution to prosecute such cases. gardaı´ in Donegal had engaged in criminal and The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law unethical behaviour. In July 2000, over a year Reform had not got the investigation file. later, Assistant Commissioner Carty submitted his report, which was the investigation file, to the Mr. Howlin: The investigation file is not the Director of Public Prosecutions who is indepen- issue. dent. A few months later, in August 2000, Deputy Commissioner Conroy forwarded a 37-page sum- The Taoiseach: The Attorney General, when mary of the Carty report to the Department of he was asked for advice, said that a tribunal Justice, Equality and Law Reform. This was not would be best but that it could not be held in the Carty report itself. At that stage, the DPP was public while cases were pending. I do not know considering the Carty report and its recommend- why Deputy Rabbitte persists with this issue ations and prosecutions. That is the process. He because all of the records, dates and information would get the file and then consider it. A number are available. I can make a list of these publicly of civil actions relating to Donegal were well available for people to see. I read the full Da´il under way at that stage and a number of com- debate on the matter last night and it is quite plaints were with the Garda Complaints Board. clear what the then Minister, Deputy In light of the controversy at that time, the then O’Donoghue, said to the House on 23 May 2001. Minister, Deputy O’Donoghue, sought a prelimi- It is there for everybody to read. nary opinion from the Attorney General in June 2001 regarding the options open to him to have Mr. Rabbitte: When the Taoiseach reads the the matter inquired into. The Attorney General Da´il debates at night I would ask him to focus on replied immediately that he required sight of the some of the language that he uses because langu- full Carty report before he could furnish an age ceases to have any meaning when he issues a opinion. The Attorney General, while agreeing reply like the one we have just heard. The fact that a public inquiry was the most attractive of the matter is that the then Minister, Deputy option — and he said that — advised that since O’Donoghue, claimed throughout 2001 that he tribunals of inquiry have to be conducted in had the Carty report. As time is limited, I will public, this could seriously prejudice pending furnish one quotation. On 23 May 2001, Deputy prosecutions. A tribunal could not be conducted O’Donoghue said, at column 1414 of the Da´il while prosecutions were ongoing. He also advised debates, “The investigation by Assistant Com- that a tribunal could be established if the truth missioner Carty was completed and presented to did not emerge in the cases that were pending. me and, in turn, to the Director of Public Pros- In November, four or five months later, having ecutions.” That was on 23 May and he repeated consulted the Director of Public Prosecutions, on that point to Deputy Howlin and others. Last foot of the Attorney General’s request to see the Wednesday, 22 June 2005, the Taoiseach came Garda file, the Garda Commissioner gave an into the House and said: “A partial version of the edited version of the Carty report to the Depart- Carty report was eventually furnished in Nov- ment of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. This ember 2001...” That is a straightforward untruth. consisted of those parts of the Carty report con- The report was furnished on 1 August 2000. The sidered to be relevant to the defence of the civil Taoiseach uttered a straightforward untruth and actions related to events in Donegal. This edited he has now picked up the habit of his former version was a bulky document and the Office of Attorney General, Deputy McDowell, of trying the Director of Public Prosecutions remarked to throw sand in people’s eyes about when is the that it would be difficult for persons reading the Carty report not the Carty report; when is the case to make sense of the issues without sight of Carty report the Conroy report; and what is the the papers. In November, Shane Murphy was difference between the report and an investi- appointed to review all the papers and advise on gation file needed for prosecution. Opposition how best to proceed. Deputies were not talking about an investigation The fact is that the full Carty report was given file for prosecution, which was the defence that to the Department in late January of 2002. Mr. the Minister advanced. We were talking about the Murphy submitted his report at the end of the hair-raising report from Mr. Noel Conroy, who same month. The following week, in February acted quite properly and who, within a month of 2002, the Government approved in principle the the report being delivered to Mr. Pat Byrne, sum- establishment of a tribunal of inquiry. That marised it and sent it to the Minister for Justice, approval came a week or ten days after the full Equality and Law Reform in easily intelligible report was given. Just a few days after the full terms. The Minister did nothing and a year and Carty report was given, the Government three months later, when we put down a motion 1045 Leaders’ 29 June 2005. Questions 1046 in the House calling for the matter to be investi- Mr. J. O’Keeffe: Here we have the Taoiseach gated, the Government voted it down. with his three Carty trick — now we see it, now The current Minister, Deputy McDowell, has we do not. stated that he could not engage in such an inquiry because he had not received the full Carty report. The Taoiseach: Deputy Jim O’Keeffe’s other When, as Attorney General, he was advising on profession is law and he should know better than the legal redress scheme and could not get the anybody in this House — with the exception of relevant report because of the secret deal cooked the other legal experts here — that the Minister up by the Taoiseach and Deputy Woods, he quite could not deal with this issue while the Director properly said that he would withdraw from giving of Public Prosecutions had cases before the advice because he could not get the documents courts. He knows that. from Deputy Woods. However, he did not say the same in this case and he has now dropped the Mr. Howlin: Of course he could. Minister, Deputy O’Donoghue, in it to the extent that the poor fellow is ashamed to come into the Mr. J. O’Keeffe: Not only could it be done, it House, go on radio or television or to present was done. himself anywhere. He is properly embarrassed, as he ought to be, about having read the Conroy An Ceann Comhairle: I remind Deputy Jim report and done nothing about it. O’Keeffe that Deputy Rabbitte is quite capable of handling his own Leader’s Questions. The Taoiseach: I have given the facts as they are, from the Attorney General, the Director of The Taoiseach: He is not capable on this issue Public Prosecutions and the Department of because Deputy Howlin keeps helping him. Justice, Equality and Law Reform. I can do no Deputy Howlin asserts that of course the Minister more than that. could deal with the issue, but I say he could not. I have read the Da´il debate and Deputy Rabbitte has quoted only one line from it. In a Mr. Howlin: The Government did it eventually. section of the debate approximately one minute It did exactly that. before the line quoted by Deputy Rabbitte, there is an exchange between Deputies Shatter, The Taoiseach: We introduced in legislation O’Donoghue and Howlin. This part of the later when we got the full report. Official Report states: Mr. Howlin: Why did the Government not act The Deputy asks if I intend to publish the two years earlier? reports of the earlier investigations into alle- gations of Garda misconduct in the Donegal The Taoiseach: We introduced legislation later area and, in this regard, if I have received the when we got the full report. completed reports from the Garda Com- missioner. On the latter point, the Deputy will Mr. Howlin: The Government did nothing until be aware from recent correspondence that I it was compelled to act. have not seen the investigation file nor would it be normal practice for the Minister to do so. The Taoiseach: The last point I will make, I have, of course, as I have previously informed when Deputy Howlin calms down —— the House, received a report of the assistant commissioner’s investigation from the Garda Mr. Howlin: Would the Taoiseach tell the Commissioner. people of Donegal to calm down also?

The Deputy—— The Taoiseach: Deputy Rabbitte speaks on this matter as if nothing happened but I wish to Mr. Howlin: Deputy O’Donoghue said that he remind the House that it was this Government, had the report. not the Opposition, which identified the solution to the impasse, namely, the enactment of the Mr. Durkan: The Taoiseach is talking about a legislation to enable a tribunal to hold part of its different matter entirely. He is attempting to con- proceedings in private so as to avoid possible fuse the issue. prejudice to court proceedings. That was the sol- ution found by the then Attorney General, The Taoiseach: It is quite clear that the former Deputy McDowell, and the then Minister for Minister states that he has the report. Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy O’Donoghue. They acted totally properly and (Interruptions). correctly.

The Taoiseach: The Minister also explains that Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in: There has been no he cannot act on that because it is not the full debate in this House on the report from the report and because there are legal prosecutions National Economic and Social Council, Housing emanating from the Director of Public Pros- in Ireland: Performance and Policy, published six ecutions. months ago. I am not aware of any response from 1047 Leaders’ 29 June 2005. Questions 1048

´ [Caoimhghı´nOCaola´in.] The Taoiseach: Some 30% of all houses in the the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and State are new houses which is an enormous Local Government to the recommendations of achievement. The Government is delivering the NESC report. Will the Government accept strongly on social and affordable housing prog- and implement the recommendation that there rammes with 13,000 benefiting under the broad should be an increase in permanent social hous- range of social and affordable housing prog- ing units, owned and managed by local auth- rammes in operation since 2004. Record levels of orities, of the order of some 73,000 units between funding are being allocated to local authorities 2005 and 2012? This is a key recommendation of for their housing programmes this year. The total the NESC. Will the Taoiseach note that the Exchequer provision for both capital and current NESC report cites evidence from other states expenditure for 2005 is \1.3 billion which is 20% showing that only through increased social hous- over the provision figure for last year. This rep- ing provision can the housing crisis in this State resents a seven-fold increase in the past seven be seriously tackled and also the terrible tragedy years. I know the Deputy will be very supportive, of homelessness for so many? as I am, of such investment. Does the Taoiseach accept that Part V of the The Deputy is correct in that changes were Planning and Development Act is failing to made in Part V. The supply of social and afford- deliver social and affordable housing which I able housing has been boosted by the implemen- have acknowledged it has the poten- tation of Part V. It took some time to implement 11 o’clock tial to deliver? Does the Taoiseach the provisions of Part V and there were changes recognise that the subsequent Plan- and delays following much lobbying in the House. ning and Development (Amendment) Act 2002 Whether or not those were justified, I accept allowed developers to shirk their responsibilities delays occurred but it is up and running. It is under the original legislation and through the giv- envisaged that more than 11,000 units will be ing of money, land or units on other devel- delivered from the various affordable schemes opments they are able to avoid the responsibility between this year and in 2007. The needs of a of providing social and affordable houses in key further 6,000 households are expected to be met developments? Is the Taoiseach aware that the through other social housing measures, including Department of the Environment, Heritage and houses completed by the voluntary co-operative Local Government, indicated there were only 390 sector. The long-term housing needs of approxi- units — I ask the Taoiseach to take note of that mately 5,000 current recipients of rent sup- figure — of social and affordable housing pro- plements will be addressed through new rental vided under Part V of the Planning and Develop- accommodation schemes. ment Act up to the end of September 2004? The local authorities are also producing five- Has a cost benefit analysis been carried out on year action plans for social and affordable hous- the transfer of land, the proposed swap of land in ing programmes. The primary aim of these plans Government ownership with developers in is to ensure housing is delivered in a manner exchange for so-called affordable housing units? which breaks the cycle of disadvantage and What has happened to the Government’s so- dependency which still exists in some areas and I called commitment regarding the creation of inte- accept the point made by the Deputy on that grated communities and a living city? The matter. Taoiseach is also a Deputy. It is clear that The Deputy asked about the transparency of in the heart of Dublin—— the land swaps. The Harcourt Terrace site was the subject of an initial feasibility analysis which (Interruptions). concluded that given its present zoning it would only realise about 30 apartments on site in An Ceann Comhairle: I ask the Deputy to give addition to some commercial developments. The way to the Taoiseach as his time is concluded. analysis found that its maximum value would be extracted by facilitating a commercial develop- Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in: ——the real effects of ment focused on the owner-occupied market, for what I have outlined are biting deeply into heart- example, a law practice for which demand is land communities. strong in that area. The recommendation was to consider an exchange of the site as a pilot scheme The Taoiseach: The Government was very glad to test the Government’s fast growing approach to receive the NESC report and also the Price- to early delivery of affordable units. The net con- waterhouseCoopers report and the other work sideration for the site was determined in the done on housing. As the Deputy knows, the analysis at \15.6 million which is \2.6 million over Government rate of building social and afford- its pre-sale valuation of \13 million. This equates able housing and housing is higher than anywhere to approximately \39 million per acre for that else in the modern world. It stands at 20 houses area and reflects the top of the range for sale per 1,000 people as against a rate of three houses prices achieved in the city centre. Dublin City per 1,000 people in Britain and five in the Council acted as project managers for the site. United States. Sixteen bids were received on an open tender and Durkan Homes was identified as the prime devel- Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in: It is not social housing. oper from a short list of three bids. 1049 Leaders’ 29 June 2005. Questions 1050

The advantage is that rather than having a site together are being forced to move out to suburbia which would have required the State to take con- and into far distant counties, including my con- siderable years to develop — it takes four years stituency. There is clear neglect. As the Taoiseach to complete a building project on a site — the said yesterday, it is time he lifted the telephone State was enabled in a matter of months to go to and talked to his brother in terms of his port- the market and have 193 apartments. One hun- folio responsibility. dred and forty families will be in their apartments by Christmas as a result of this decision and 53 The Taoiseach: The only reason I outlined to more early in the new year, rather than having to the Deputy the transparency in the system is that wait for the longer process. The Government has he said he wanted to ask me two specific ques- now made six other sites available. Any reason- tions, and that was one of them. In that respect, able person would agree this process is a fast- I am sorry if I answered his question. track approach. I accepted the point made in the On the issue of social and affordable housing, House on many occasions. It is a fair point and it we are acutely aware of the need for such hous- was raised by Deputy Rabbitte many times. I am ing. That is why we are putting approximately \2 here again answering questions from Members billion a year into building the record number of because we have effectively done things, as is houses we are now providing. In addition, we are always the case. The Deputy asked if a proper removing the old slums in the heart of the cities, feasibility study was carried out and my reply has where people lived close to each other because shown it was. there had no alternative as there were packed in together, and redeveloping them. Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in: I thank the Taoiseach for his reply. As this is the last Leaders’ Ques- Ms Burton: There are far fewer new houses tions of this term, the House should deal with the being built. That is the problem. issue being raised, which is social and affordable housing. The Taoiseach refers to the building The Taoiseach: We are doing that in Cherry programme in total which includes private build- Orchard, Ballymun, Oliver Bond flats and estates ing which we know is currently at an unpre- throughout the inner city. We are providing new cedented level. However, that will not address the homes and housing under major programmes. focus of my question which is the 50,000 housing units for people who are still on local authority Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in: The Taoiseach has waiting lists throughout this jurisdiction. When cited instances of which I know. What is being the Taoiseach refers to a cost benefit analysis done in regard to the Oliver Bond flats? regarding specific cases, under any cost benefit analysis there would be a greater return for this An Ceann Comhairle: Allow the Taoiseach to State if the lands were given to local authorities continue without interruption. rather than in swaps with private developers.This is what is needed. What of the NESC recom- The Taoiseach: The Deputy mentioned the mendation in respect of a tax on second homes? inner city. Part V of the legislation enables local Many of those new homes in that private sector authorities to provide houses in areas where they area are being bought by investors and property would not have been able to provide them pre- speculators, people who are buying second and viously, and that arrangement is working. In most subsequent homes—— of the new schemes being built the local auth- orities have successfully negotiated that a portion Mr. M. Higgins: Hear, hear. of the units will be allocated to tenants on the list. This is very helpful and is happening in respect Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in: ——only to become of every development. landlords and rack-rent landlords as is often the case. Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in: If the Taoiseach wants to fast-track matters, he should adopt the recom- Mr. Treacy: Illegal money. mendations of the NESC report.

Mr. J. Brady: There was a lot of that in the An Ceann Comhairle: I ask the Deputy to Opposition’s day. allow the Taoiseach to continue.

Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in: Is it the Government’s The Taoiseach: The NESC report is very help- intention to act on that recommendation of the ful and is being used—— NESC? What is the Taoiseach’s position in respect of the continuation of section 23 tax relief Mr. Morgan: When will we debate it? when clearly it is contributing to ever spiralling house prices particularly in the city of Dublin The Taoiseach: ——in terms of provisions on where it is having a devastating effect on the foot of decisions we have made. The announce- potential of young couples to aspire to first-time ment last week of the establishment of the home buyer status? It is having devastating con- Affordable Homes Partnership under the 1971 sequences. Centre city communities are being Act is designed to pull together the four local ravaged. Those who have lived generationally authorities in Dublin—— 1051 Ceisteanna — 29 June 2005. Questions 1052

Aengus O´ Snodaigh: That is for the developers serves is complementary in helping to identify and speculators. and overcome obstacles to effective participation in these wider processes. The body will continue The Taoiseach: ——to try to co-ordinate to meet, as necessary, to this end. activity to increase the number of affordable I addressed the Biennial Conference of the houses. Irish Congress of Trade Unions in the Waterfront Hall in Belfast on Thursday last. In the course of Aengus O´ Snodaigh: What is being done to my speech, I addressed the issue of housing. One provide social housing? of the central issues in housing is affordability, and we have for some time been working to The Taoiseach: This is proving to be highly suc- provide increased numbers of affordable houses cessful and we will continue in this direction in under a variety of schemes, including the afford- the months and years ahead. able housing initiative which we agreed with the social partners in Sustaining Progress. An Ceann Comhairle: For the benefit of the While considerable progress has been made, House, I point out that we went 18 minutes over our priority now must be accelerating delivery of time on Leaders’ Questions. The Chair requests affordable housing units. In this context, I all leaders before the autumn to try to find a way announced during my speech in Belfast that we of living within the Standing Order which pro- are creating a new agency, to be known as the vides for seven minutes per question or the Chair affordable homes partnership. will have to find a way to ensure this. The role of the AHP will be to drive and co- ordinate the delivery of affordable housing in the Ceisteanna — Questions. greater Dublin area, with particular reference to the Dublin metropolitan area. The AHP will help ———— to accelerate the Sustaining Progress affordable housing initiative on State land, and will work Social Partnership Agreement. closely with relevant Departments and local auth- 1. Mr. Kenny asked the Taoiseach if he will orities to ensure a “whole of Government” report on the recent work of the National Imple- approach to affordable housing developments. mentation Body; and if he will make a statement In the first instance, the agency will be working on the matter. [20756/05] within the existing planning and development framework. However, if additional legislative 2. Mr. Rabbitte asked the Taoiseach if he will powers prove to be necessary, they will be made report on the recent work of the National Imple- available. In the meantime, consideration is to be mentation Body; and if he will make a statement given to approaches dealing with land options on the matter. [22234/05] and a “use it or lose it” scheme. 3. Mr. Sargent asked the Taoiseach if he will The Government intends to address more report on his speech to the ICTU conference in medium-term issues for the provision of social Belfast; and if he will make a statement on the and affordable housing in the early autumn. This matter. [22338/05] process will be informed by the outcome of the statutory housing needs assessment currently 4. Mr. Sargent asked the Taoiseach if he will under way and the work under way by the Hous- report on the recent work of the National Imple- ing Forum in reviewing the effectiveness of the mentation Body; and if he will make a statement existing social and affordable housing schemes in on the matter. [22555/05] the context of Sustaining Progress. The Taoiseach: I propose to take Questions A copy of my address to the conference has Nos. 1 to 4, inclusive, together. been laid in the Library. The National Implementation Body, which includes employer and trade union representa- Mr. Kenny: The National Implementation tives, operates under the chairmanship of my Body met recently to discuss the difficulties Department. Its purpose is to oversee delivery of between the Department of Health and Children, the industrial peace and stability provisions of the the Health Service Employers’ Agency and the Sustaining Progress agreement. Irish Nurses Organisation in regard to the full The body has met on a number of occasions implementation of the health care assistants’ recently to assist in the resolution of industrial programme. Part of the recommendations, as the relations disputes in both the public and private Taoiseach will be aware, was the establishment sectors. Meetings of the body also provide oppor- of a high level group representative of the main tunities for informal discussion of some of the interest groups, including An Bord Altranais, to broader issues relating to the social partnership examine the outstanding recommendations con- process and the industrial relations climate tained in a report termed the Effective Utilisation generally. of Professional Skills of Nurses and Midwives and I should make clear that the National Imple- that such work should be finished by September mentation Body does not seek in any way to 2005. Was that high level representative group set duplicate or substitute for already well-estab- up and, if so, it is currently carrying out that lished industrial relations machinery. The role it analysis? Does the Taoiseach expect it will have 1053 Ceisteanna — 29 June 2005. Questions 1054 concluded its business by September of this year? as taxpayers, know that we are getting value for Does he consider any further action needs to be money? If we take Harcourt Street as an taken at this point by the National Implemen- example, is everything tied up and are the “i’s” tation Body? Does he have information as to how dotted and the “t’s” crossed in terms of what many cases that body considered during the past exactly is the quid pro quo for the swap, the alter- 12 months? native locations the developer who will benefit In respect of the threatened strike of nurses from getting Harcourt Street is offering, how intended to take place in June but which was many units can be put on them, etc.? averted once the pay increases of between 3.5% Has the Taoiseach any concerns about inner and 5.5% were not withheld and were paid by 1 city regeneration and building, in the sense that June, does the Taoiseach consider the issue of it seems what we are encouraging here is the con- acuity recognition in terms of the degree of press- struction of more office blocks? The people ure, stress and responsibility with which various working in those office blocks will be put out in aspects of the nursing profession have to deal the commuter belt and they will have to commute should be considered under the benchmarking to the office blocks in the city and so on. I know process? there has been unconscionable delay. The then Minister for the Environment and Local Govern- The Taoiseach: I do not have information on ment, Deputy Dempsey, tried to address some of the number of meetings of this body. these issues when he held that office. Is the plan well thought out to gift these valuable sites to Mr. Kenny: That is okay, the Taoiseach can developers in return for housing elsewhere, with forward me that information. all the implications for city living that are involved? The Taoiseach: Since the beginning of 2004 it has met 15 or 16 times. The Taoiseach: Before I go to those questions, I should make it clear that there are no gifts Mr. Kenny: The Taoiseach can forward me involved in this initiative. It is a commercial deal, that information. a swap, with costs being put on the sale. The details have been worked out and I will go The Taoiseach: In regard to the health care through some of them. There is nothing for assistants’ programme, the body met the manage- ment side and the INO representatives. Following nothing for anyone. man- those discussions, the body noted that the INO aged the project and professional assessments had no principal objection to the implementation were made of what the site could be used for. of the modules of the health care assistants’ prog- The advantage in terms of the Harcourt Street ramme and it recommended immediate and full analysis is that planning would be forthcoming for co-operation with all the preparation and training 30 apartments, with a commercial use for another arrangements. It recommended the establish- part of the site. If this were to be done in the ment, as the Deputy mentioned, of a high level inner city as a private project, given all the time group representative of An Bord Altranais to it takes to do these things, it would take four examine the outstanding lists. This work is years at best. The largest developers will say that ongoing and will be completed by the end of it takes between four and six years from the time September. It also noted the issue of nursing they purchase a site to getting a likely return on practice and delegation. some of it. I have had endless information from In regard to what should be included in the all the local authorities which confirms that this benchmarking process, it is a matter for individ- is case. I do not quite understand why it takes so ual groups to make their cases and put forward long, but apparently that is how it works. their submissions. They can do that under the In this case, Durkan, the developer, won the benchmarking process. The issue raised by the contract out of 16 tenders. There was no shortage Deputy is, to the best of my knowledge, a legit- of applicants. Eventually there was a shortlist of imate issue that the profession can put forward three and Durkan ultimately won. It will have 140 under those arrangements. of these units in south Dublin ready by Christmas and people will be occupying them, as well as Mr. Rabbitte: I refer to the Taoiseach’s address another 52 units. For the swap of that site we will to the congress in Belfast. Will he say something build 30 units or perhaps more. By early in the more about the new affordable homes partner- New Year, within nine months of the deal being ship agency? Is it in place? If not, when will it be completed a month ago, we will get 192 units. In put in place? Of how many people will the agency all of this Dublin City Council is doing the project comprise? Mr. Des Geraghty has agreed to act as management. There is no point in another group chairman. What other kinds of people will be on doing it. It is best to do it that way. I can give the the agency? Will the powers be vested in them Deputy some details about the initiative itself. to gift lands to developers in return for housing The initiative comes about from the experience elsewhere? Has the Taoiseach any concerns as to gained in the past few years regarding the agree- whether there is a value for money question to ment on the 10,000 sites. We were able to get the be addressed regarding, say, an immensely valu- sites but it was an exceedingly slow process to get able site such as Harcourt Street? How do we, on with matters. 1055 Ceisteanna — 29 June 2005. Questions 1056

[The Taoiseach.] housing availability and development. In fulfilling The Affordable Homes Partnership will be its communication role, it will work with local established as a corporate body under the Local authorities to simplify contact by members of the Government Services (Corporate Bodies) Act public on the choices available and the tailoring 1971. The reason is that it can be done immedi- of individual requirements. There are now about ately and we can get ahead forthwith. The estab- eight or nine different schemes. lishment order for the partnership will be made Regarding the priority of increasing affordable shortly by the Minister for the Environment, housing in the Dublin metropolitan area, the Heritage and Local Government and will be cir- partnership will be mandated to ensure that the culated in the Houses of the Oireachtas. It will annual target of at least 16,000 units identified for provide a statutory structure around which a Dublin is met. As a particular requirement this board and support staff may be put in place will ensure that the response is aimed at address- immediately. The Affordable Homes Partnership ing issues of affordability that remain a significant will be subject to public service corporate govern- source of concern. In this area, the growth of ance disciplines, including audit and appropriate commuter-based development in Dublin and sur- ethics requirements. Initially the board will con- rounding counties has resulted in significant sist of seven members, the managers of the four human, social and economic costs due to the defi- Dublin local authorities and three independent cit in affordable housing in the capital. Therefore members. Mr. Des Geraghty has been invited to it is important that supply contains a sufficient serve as chairman and has agreed. The names of component within the affordable category, the other independent members will be whether as private housing or under the afford- announced, I hope, within the next week. able schemes. The partnership will have an experienced chief In order to increase the supply of land available executive and a small dedicated staff comprising for affordable housing in the greater Dublin area, personnel with a proven track record, principally the Affordable Homes Partnership, as one of its on secondment in the early stages. It is a question earliest tasks, will call for proposals from the hol- of initially seconding people with proven experi- ders of land that may be suitable for housing ence in this area, rather than going through a long development, including land that is not currently interviewing process. The chief executive will be zoned for housing, regardless of its ownership. In an ex officio member of the board. Arrangements order to assist the progressing of development of have already been put in place for the appoint- suitable lands using existing planning mechan- ment of the chief executive and other staff. isms, the Minister for the Environment, Heritage The Affordable Homes Partnership will have and Local Government intends to issue policy responsibility for a range of tasks, mainly for a guidance which will reinforce the policy context short-term period of three years, at least initially. in which zoning and planning decisions take It will drive and co-ordinate the delivery of all account of the goal of providing additional hous- affordable housing development, that is, quality ing in the affordable category. houses at a reasonable cost in the greater Dublin The partnership will undertake an audit of area. In conducting its role the partnership will their lands with local authorities with a view to pay particular attention to increasing supply the most active use of such holdings for afford- within the Dublin metropolitan area, with regard able housing schemes. The principle to be used in to the local authorities’ five year action plans on this initiative is that the land should be located in sociable and affordable housing. The partnership an area where there is a need for such housing, will co-ordinate approaches as regards the to ensure that suitable development land is adjac- development of supporting infrastructure, such as ent to existing developments and capable of inte- transport, water, education and other community gration with such settlements — community facilities. The approach will be to prioritise pro- facilities, schools, public transport — and the jects within existing capital envelopes in a con- land, ideally, should be capable of being built certed and co-ordinated way to facilitate the upon within a short timescale. It should be necessary affordable housing. serviced or serviceable. It is intended that the partnership will take Value for money will be based on the final unit responsibility, as far as practicable, for the costs of housing, including any servicing, having present affordable housing system — that is the regard to specified quality and timescales of 10,000 sites on State lands in the greater Dublin delivery. I have quite an amount of detail on area, where it is necessary that this initiative swaps. Perhaps I will send Deputy Rabbitte a should lead to their accelerated development. memorandum on that area. On the basis that The partnership will be tasked to undertake a ser- everyone believes the Harcourt Street project is ies of measures to bring additional land for hous- a great success — I hope it will be and something ing development, including the consideration of does not happen — a second phase will begin on proposals from builders, developers or local auth- Harcourt Street because only a small area was orities for the utilisation of lands not currently tested in the pilot project. zoned for housing but which may be suitable for Land at Gormanston, Model Farm in Cork, development. Athenry, Magee Barracks and Backweston is also The partnership will also publicise and com- being put on the market to see what it can gener- municate with the public in general on affordable ate. Most of these sites are not serviceable and it 1057 Ceisteanna — 29 June 2005. Questions 1058 will take a considerable amount of time for the An Ceann Comhairle: I call Deputy Sargent. State to make them serviceable. In this way, it is hoped we will get serviceable sites either built or The Taoiseach: I wish to make one further about to be built, rather than stretching out the point in case I cause confusion. The partnership process until 2010 which would be the case with- will look after any of the 10,000 sites located out a swap. We will probably not get the same within the Dublin metropolitan area. Any sites interest — I hope we do — or value as for the outside the area will be looked after elsewhere. Harcourt Street site where we are getting 190 The partnership wants to keep the system small apartments for a relatively small site. At least the by having a small board and staff, using local other sites would speed up the process but, again, authority structures and seconding staff rather it would have to be project managed by local than getting into the interview process and trying authorities, instead of the State also getting to make a big impact. involved. It is worth making this effort to have Another issue of interest has not yet emerged the land developed because the other way is pain- and Deputy Rabbitte’s question offers an oppor- fully slow. tunity to raise it. Everybody gives out that there The issue which interests me in swapping sites is a lot of land around Dublin, often lying derelict and the reason I went with this approach, or used for anti-social behaviour, which is some- although I can always see the dangers in these times owned by the local authority and some- kinds of things, is that the affordable selling price times owned by God knows who. I am sure for the units after the swap involving the Har- Deputy Rabbitte will have had the same experi- court Street site will be between \150,000 and ence of this in his constituency as I have had in \170,000, an average discount of 33% of the mine. If a developer or local authority believes it market value. For the citizen, our constituents, could put this land, which is not zoned, into use, this is a considerable reduction. In this case, the it could propose a project to the partnership. The individual on the list is given good quality housing partnership, within the existing structures, would in a good area for a very attractive price. then try to fast-track the development of the land purely for affordable initiatives, taking into Mr. Rabbitte: I thank the Taoiseach for his account the needs of local residents. I have made reply. I would appreciate getting the information the point to the partnership that if it were to try he promised to allow me to examine the matter to make it attractive for local residents to get rid in more detail. To help me understand the con- of what is probably an eyesore by guaranteeing cept, does the Taoiseach have a figure on file for some local participation in the affordable housing the value of the Harcourt Street site? I under- allocation, such projects could become quite stand he indicated that the agency is charged with attractive operations. If local residents believe it delivery of the entire 10,000 units and that, is house building for the general housing pool, whereas other sites in the ownership of the State they will probably not find it attractive. It will be will be put out to tender, the agency will not be interesting to see what emerges in regard to this prevented from developing some sites in its pos- aspect of the plan which has not had much of an session if it wishes to go through the procedure airing, although it should have been aired and deliver houses itself. Is that correct? because if many of the nuisance sites could be brought to the agency and planning and zoning The Taoiseach: The value for money analysis were quickly secured, not alone could one get of the Harcourt Street site was carried out as part more affordable housing but one would also get of an open and transparent procurement process rid of many of the nuisance sites. conducted by Dublin City Council, as the project manager for the site. The site was put out to ten- Mr. Sargent: I will ask two questions relating der and 16 bids were received and evaluated to the Taoiseach’s speech to the Irish Congress of against predetermined criteria. A shortlist of Trade Unions in Belfast. ICTU has set out a three bids was examined and Durkan Homes was number of priorities in advance of the new round identified as the preferred bidder. We are receiv- of partnership talks. Top of its list is tackling the ing a net consideration for the site of \15.6 mil- widening gap between the low and high paid, lion, which is in excess of \2.6 million above its which is not new. Given the growth in this gap pre-sale valuation of \13 million. This equates to under Governments led by the Taoiseach, does \39 million per acre, a frightening figure but that he foresee a time when we will be able to turn is how the world is today. It reflects the top of around this trend and effectively reduce the gap the range of sale prices achieved in the city centre to bring about some equity? in recent years. It is extraordinary stuff. My second question is related to the affordable homes partnership plan. I assume the creation of Mr. Rabbitte: Are the 190 units in south Dublin the partnership is an acknowledgement by the almost complete? Taoiseach of the failure to quickly meet the com- mitment to build 10,000 social housing units. It is The Taoiseach: I have been assured that 140 of clear the plan is a good deal for developers who the units will be occupied before Christmas and will no doubt be happy to get their hands on the other 52 will be occupied within a period of lucrative land in return for building what are nine months. That is the benefit. known as affordable homes. I understand the 1059 Requests to move Adjournment of 29 June 2005. Da´il under Standing Order 31 1060

[Mr. Sargent.] The Taoiseach: The only lift they get in the affordable homes in question will be sold at 20% entire year is the nine to ten weeks when people below market price, whereas the Taoiseach indi- visit during the summer. cated to Deputy Rabbitte that they will be sold at 33% below market price. Will he clarify the Mr. Durkan: Does this mean we are only fol- difference? lowing assumption? What criteria will govern the selection of the lucky developers who will be charged with taking The Taoiseach: Recently the President of responsibility for delivery of the partnership pro- Serbia and Montenegro informed me that the ject? Will selection be determined simply by the leading investors in property in his state are Irish price given to the State or will the criteria include people. Do we have to send them to Serbia and obligations on the developers to pay subcontrac- Montenegro rather than the west for a summer tors they engage promptly and operate to a set of house? standards laid down by the Government? Will the Taoiseach outline what such criteria might be, Mr. Morgan: That has nothing to do with the given the experience of a significant number of cost of housing in Galway. subcontractors who protested outside the House yesterday, having been effectively stung for hun- Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in: There are two Galway dreds of thousands of euro owed to them by con- men sitting behind the Taoiseach. I can assure tractors working in the pay of local authorities? I him that—— understand the Taoiseach is aware of the matter. What criteria are in place to prevent a recurrence Mr. Treacy: We love visitors every day. of this type of serious non-payment of Bills? Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in: ——there are many The Taoiseach: As always, the Deputy has tried families in Galway concerned about property to turn the issue around by saying the partnership prices. offers good value to the developer when every- body else believes it offers good value to the indi- An Ceann Comhairle: Allow the Taoiseach to viduals concerned, as I have outlined. The argu- conclude. ment as to whether tax reliefs should be The Taoiseach: I never make personal remarks continued is fair. The Minister for Finance is ´ reviewing these. but Deputy O Caola´in’s party is not too bad for The analysis the Deputy has come to is that having second homes. approximately 300,000 people have homes out- side the country. I believe that he has come to Mr. Durkan: Country hideaways. this analysis himself. I am not going to tell people not to have a second home. I am not ideologically Mr. F. McGrath: Safe houses. opposed to people having a second home. It is Mr. Morgan: Tax them, that is what we are difficult enough to live in one. saying. Mr. F. McGrath: The Taoiseach has none in An Ceann Comhairle: Allow the Taoiseach Kerry. without interruption.

Mr. Kenny: They are good for hanging baskets. The Taoiseach: What is wrong if people can afford a large or a small second house in a coun- The Taoiseach: I do not know why people want try area and go there with their children for long seven or eight homes if they make money on weekends and summer holidays? them. If I had a house down in Mayo, I would make no apologies for it. Mr. Naughten: The social welfare system must be good. Mr. F. McGrath: Does he have one in a place called An Daingean? Requests to move Adjournment of Da´il under The Taoiseach: This argument emerges at this Standing Order 31. time of the year. However, many of the villages An Ceann Comhairle: Before coming to the on the western seaboard are very happy to see Order of Business I propose to deal with a people coming from the greater Dublin area for number of notices under Standing Order 31. I call the summer season. on Deputies in the order in which they submitted their notices to my office. Mr. Morgan: They are not happy. Mr. F. McGrath: I seek the adjournment of the The Taoiseach: They are happy. Da´il under Standing Order 31 to raise a matter of national importance, namely, the developing Mr. Morgan: They are not because it is putting crisis at Global Mobile Vision and the urgent up the cost of housing for many of them. need to assist staff and customers. 1061 Order of 29 June 2005. Business 1062

Dr. Cowley: I seek the adjournment of the Da´il clusion after 65 minutes and the following under Standing Order 31 to raise a matter of arrangements shall apply: the speech of a Mini- national importance, namely, that landowners ster or Minister of State and of the main spokes- and residents of Rossport, , who are persons for the Fine Gael Party, the Labour Party in mortal fear for their lives, are being thrown and the , who shall be called into jail because they are asserting their right to upon in that order, shall not exceed 15 minutes live on their own property without a potentially in each case, Members may share time and a lethal high pressure gas pipeline being imposed Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon on them. It is a disgrace. to make a speech in reply which shall not exceed five minutes; the proceedings on the resumed Mr. Treacy: Deputy Cowley is anti-develop- Report and Final Stages of No. 28 shall be taken ment and anti-the west. today and shall, if not previously concluded, be Mr. F. McGrath: Michael Davitt lives on. brought to a conclusion at 6 p.m. by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, Mr. Sargent: I seek the adjournment of the Da´il in relation to amendments, include only those set under Standing Order 31 to raise a matter of down or accepted by the Minister for Agriculture national importance, namely, to plan for the and Food; the following arrangements shall apply potential growth in biofuel production which in relation to No. 2: the proceedings on Second could supply as much oil as Ireland uses in elec- Stage shall, if not previously concluded, be tricity generation or five times the amount of brought to a conclusion at 9.30 p.m. tonight, the diesel our entire public transport fleet requires opening speech of a Minister or Minister of State each year if just one seventh of land in pasture and of the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael were converted to biofuel production as detailed Party, the Labour Party and the Technical Group, in a Green Party study and how such a move who shall be called upon in that order, shall not would greatly improve our efforts with the exceed 15 minutes in each case, the speech of Kyoto Protocol. each other member called upon shall not exceed ten minutes in each case, Members may share Mr. Morgan: I seek the adjournment of the time and a Minister or Minister of State shall be Da´il under Standing Order 31 to raise a matter of called upon to make a speech in reply which shall public concern, namely, the threat of legal action not exceed five minutes; the proceedings on the hanging over local landowners at Rossport, Committee and Remaining Stages of No. 2 shall, County Mayo, two of whom have been commit- if not previously concluded, be brought to a con- ted to prison this morning, who are objecting on clusion at 10 p.m. by one question which shall be health and safety grounds to the proposed gas put from the Chair and which shall, in relation pipeline there. The wrong people have been put in jail. to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Transport. An Ceann Comhairle: Having considered the Private Members’ Business shall be No. 56, matters raised, I do not consider them to be in motion re G8 Summit and overseas development order under Standing Order 31. aid (resumed), to conclude at 8.30 p.m.

An Ceann Comhairle: There are five proposals Order of Business. to be put to the House. Is the proposal for the The Taoiseach: It is proposed to take No.18, late sitting agreed to? motion re proposed approval by Da´il E´ ireann for a Council Decision on the exchange of infor- Mr. Rabbitte: It is not agreed. This schedule mation and co-operation concerning terrorist brings to 17 the number of items guillotined or offences, back from committee; No. 19, motion re taken without debate, which is hard to justify. We ´ proposed approval by Da´il Eireann of the Plan- are providing for a late sitting despite the House ning and Development Regulations 2005; No. 28, deciding to rise as early as 1 July. Can I remind Veterinary Practice Bill 2004 [Seanad] — Report the Ceann Comhairle that this is the fourth and Final Stages (resumed); No. 2 , International revised schedule of business this week? The Interests in Mobile Equipment (Cape Town Government now proposes on Friday to intro- Convention) Bill 2005 [Seanad] — Second and duce a Bill and take all Stages. This is the fourth Subsequent Stages; No. 29, Driver Testing and Standards Authority Bill 2004 — Second Stage time the Government has put through all Stages (resumed); No. 30, Health and Social Care Pro- of a Bill in a single sitting without notice to the fessionals Bill 2004 [Seanad] — Second Stage Opposition. For those reasons, I cannot see how (resumed). it is acceptable for the Taoiseach to cause the It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in House to rise so early and, at the same time, Standing Orders, that the Da´il shall sit later than introduce an Order of Business that requires us 8.30 p.m. tonight and business shall be interrup- to sit until 10 p.m. ted not later than 10 p.m.; No. 18 shall be decided without debate; the proceedings on No. 19 shall, Question, “That the late sitting be agreed to,” if not previously concluded, be brought to a con- put and declared carried. 1063 Order of 29 June 2005. Business 1064

An Ceann Comhairle: Is the proposal for deal- to 30 minutes so we can facilitate the passage of ing with No. 18, motion re proposed approval by this legislation. I ask the Government to look at Da´il E´ ireann for a Council decision without this again and provide us with the facility to debate, agreed to? address both the legislation in the House and the issue in the committee meeting, rather than con- Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in: We have no report ducting both matters at the same time. from the committee’s deliberations on this motion. I have had no sight of it. It is imperative The Taoiseach: I will ask the Whip to contact that we have a full debate on what is the Chairman of the Joint Committee on Agri- 12 o’clock an important element of the overall culture and Food with a view to arranging some- EU action plan. This has implications thing. The time of the debate in this House for our security, our civil liberties and our human cannot be changed but perhaps the committee rights. All these matters are affected by the con- can change the time of its meeting. tent of the proposition and, more importantly, in the context of the EU action plan which was Mr. Naughten: If the Whip had not changed introduced four years ago and yet the House has the time from last week to this week, this could never debated it. It is irrelevant of what one’s have been facilitated. However, it has been view may be of its content. Whatever opinion I chopped and changed without any discussion tak- may have, others may have one that is totally con- ing place, even though the committee meeting has trary. On principle, the House should be address- been scheduled for the last four weeks. ing the proposal. The greater number of Members simply do not know what it contains or The Taoiseach: It is an important issue. what effects it may have on the rights of citizens An Ceann Comhairle: Is the proposal for deal- of this State and other EU member states. The ing with No. 28, conclusion of Report and Final House should not permit something to go Stages of the Veterinary Practice Bill 2004 through on a nod and a wink without Members agreed? Agreed. fulfilling their duty of proper inspection. That is Is the proposal for dealing with No. 2, con- why I again object to No. 18 proceeding as clusion of Second and Remaining Stages of the proposed. International Interests in Mobile Equipment (Cape Town Convention) Bill 2005 agreed? Question, “That the proposal for dealing with No. 18, motion re proposed approval by Da´il Mr. Stagg: I wish to put on the record of the E´ ireann for a Council decision without debate be House that the use of the guillotine in this wide- agreed to” put and declared carried. spread manner on a long list of Bills is simply unacceptable. It is bad parliamentary practice and An Ceann Comhairle: Is the proposal for deal- is relatively new, particularly since, as my party ing with No. 19, motion re proposed approval by leader, Deputy Rabbitte stated earlier, the House ´ Da´il Eireann of the Planning and Development is breaking for three months. Hence, if the House Regulations 2005 agreed? Agreed. wishes, there is plenty of time to have a debate Is the proposal for dealing with No. 28, con- without guillotining the Bill. clusion of Report and Final Stages of the Veterin- ary Practice Bill 2004 agreed? Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in: I also wish to object to the application of the guillotine once again in Mr. Naughten: The proposal regarding No. 28 respect of a number of items, including the last is not agreed. While Deputies Upton, Crawford one. It is uncalled for and is unnecessary. As a and I are supposed to be debating the Report preference, the Government should allow the Stage amendments in the House, we are also sup- opportunity for full participation by Members posed to be attending a meeting of the Joint and the guillotine is wrong in principle unless Committee on Agriculture and Food to discuss there are specific reasons for it. I acknowledge Teagasc’s closures of profitable offices around that such reasons have presented themselves in the country. It is impossible for us to be in two the past, but in the normal course, it should not places at once and we indicated this to the Whip be the Government’s first option. earlier. Question put: “That the proposal for dealing Mr. Kelleher: Why did I not hear about it? with No. 2, conclusion of Second and Remaining Stages of the International Interests in Mobile Mr. Naughten: The solution is to restrict the Equipment (Cape Town Convention) Bill 2005 discussion on the closure of the Teagasc offices be agreed to.” 1065 Order of 29 June 2005. Business 1066

The Da´il divided: Ta´, 68; Nı´l, 53.

Ta´

Ahern, Bertie. Healy-Rae, Jackie. Ahern, Michael. Hoctor, Ma´ire. Ahern, Noel. Keaveney, Cecilia. Andrews, Barry. Kelleher, Billy. Ardagh, Sea´n. Kelly, Peter. Blaney, Niall. Kirk, Seamus. Brady, Johnny. Kitt, Tom. Browne, John. Lenihan, Brian. Callanan, Joe. Martin, Michea´l. Callely, Ivor. McDowell, Michael. Carey, Pat. McEllistrim, Thomas. Carty, John. McGuinness, John. Cassidy, Donie. Moloney, John. Collins, Michael. Moynihan, Donal. Cooper-Flynn, Beverley. Moynihan, Michael. Cregan, John. Mulcahy, Michael. Cullen, Martin. Nolan, M.J. Curran, John. O´ Cuı´v, E´ amon. Davern, Noel. O´ Fearghaı´l, Sea´n. Dempsey, Noel. O’Dea, Willie. Dempsey, Tony. O’Donnell, Liz. Dennehy, John. O’Donovan, Denis. Devins, Jimmy. O’Keeffe, Batt. Ellis, John. O’Keeffe, Ned. Finneran, Michael. O’Malley, Fiona. Fitzpatrick, Dermot. O’Malley, Tim. Fleming, Sea´n. Parlon, Tom. Fox, Mildred. Power, Peter. Gallagher, Pat The Cope. Roche, Dick. Glennon, Jim. Sexton, Mae. Grealish, Noel. Smith, Brendan. Hanafin, Mary. Treacy, Noel. Harney, Mary. Walsh, Joe. Haughey, Sea´n. Woods, Michael.

Nı´l

Allen, Bernard. Mitchell, Olivia. Breen, Pat. Morgan, Arthur. Broughan, Thomas P. Murphy, Catherine. Burton, Joan. Murphy, Gerard. Connaughton, Paul. Naughten, Denis. Costello, Joe. Neville, Dan. Cowley, Jerry. O´ Caola´in, Caoimhghı´n. Crawford, Seymour. O´ Snodaigh, Aengus. Deasy, John. O’Dowd, Fergus. Durkan, Bernard J. O’Keeffe, Jim. English, Damien. O’Shea, Brian. Enright, Olwyn. Pattison, Seamus. Gilmore, Eamon. Penrose, Willie. Gogarty, Paul. Perry, John. Gormley, John. Quinn, Ruairi. Gregory, Tony. Rabbitte, Pat. Hayes, Tom. Ryan, Sea´n. Higgins, Michael D. Sargent, Trevor. Howlin, Brendan. Sherlock, Joe. Kehoe, Paul. Shortall, Ro´ isı´n. Kenny, Enda. Stagg, Emmet. Lynch, Kathleen. Stanton, David. McCormack, Padraic. Timmins, Billy. McGrath, Finian. Twomey, Liam. McGrath, Paul. Upton, Mary. McHugh, Paddy. Wall, Jack. McManus, Liz.

Tellers: Ta´, Deputies Kitt and Kelleher; Nı´l, Deputies Kehoe and Stagg.

Question declared carried. the House before the summer recess unless he turns up tomorrow. Nine of the 13 Bills on the Mr. Kenny: A matter raised by the Taoiseach, list published by the Chief Whip, which were due on behalf of the Government, has been about to be published, have not been. These include the competency and this is the last time he will be in Abbotstown sports campus Bill, the energy 1067 Order of 29 June 2005. Business 1068

[Mr. Kenny.] gation Bill has been approved by the Govern- (miscellaneous provisions) Bill, the Foyle and ment and is awaiting publication. There are four Carlingford fisheries Bill, the sea fisheries Bill, Bills not on the list, namely the British-Irish the employment permits Bill, the employees Agreement (Amendment) Bill, the Landlord and (provision of information and consultation) Bill, Tenant (Ground Rents) Bill, the Air Navigation the diplomatic relations and immunities Transport (Indemnities) Bill and the Civil Regis- (amendment) Bill, the criminal justice tration Bill, which were taken. (international co-operation) Bill and the tribunals We have published 25 Bills since last summer. of inquiry (evidence) (amendment) Bill. Only We will publish several more over the next few four of the 13 Bills listed have been published. weeks. I thank the House for enacting 22 Bills That is an appalling record. since last September, which is a large amount of The Chief Whip, after due consideration by the legislation. If we could change the schedule to Cabinet, published the work for the Legislature spend more time legislating, it would certainly for this session, that is, 13 Bills to be published help the process. That is the real problem. and debated in the House, but we find at the end of the session that nine have not been published. Mr. Rabbitte: I am not sure what the Taoiseach That is an appalling record in terms of com- means by that last remark. It has often been made petency. It does down the Chief Whip who by some of his Ministers as well. Is he suggesting struggles away against the vagaries of politics that we put those Bills through on the nod? Many each week. Will the Taoiseach comment on that? pieces of legislation that have gone through this Can we have an assurance that when the House House have got inadequate time and scrutiny. comes back, the list of Bills proposed to be pub- The Taoiseach knows that. He has Ministers who lished for the autumn session will be realistic and would like to dispense with Parliament, make law that Deputies will know it is seriously intended to in their offices and deal with the media outside. deal with the body of work on the list produced by the Cabinet? Mr. J. O’Keeffe: The next step is dictatorship.

The Taoiseach: There are two issues. We have Mr. Rabbitte: The Minister for Justice, just had a vote on a Bill which passed all Stages Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell, is in the Seanad where it was introduced and we probably giving another briefing at this moment. now want to pass it in the Da´il. It is a short, tech- As far as Ministers like him are concerned, the nical Bill which was opposed even though it helps Da´il is an irritant. Now I hear the Taoiseach an Internet based aircraft register which will be wishes to make an assault on one of the few based in Ireland. It was opposed not because elements of parliamentary accountability, which Deputies were against the Bill but because the is Leaders’ Questions. He will try to neuter it Chief Whip is trying to complete Bills from 2004 before the next parliamentary session. which have been around for a long time. There is Was the work permits Bill published this morn- not much point in putting forward a number of ing? Can we be sure the Minister has read it? new Bills when we cannot even clear existing Bills. We are criticised for guillotining Bills that The Taoiseach: The work permits Bill will put the existing employment permit administrative are not of great significance. If we could clear arrangements on a legislative basis. This Bill will Bills more quickly here, it would be far better. be published today. One of the proposals of the Whip is that we spend The point I am making is that we could sched- more time on legislation, so that we could try to ule our business to give more hours to dealing speed up the process. with legislation. The Whip’s proposal is trying to move legislative time from 11.5 hours to 15 hours. Mr. J. O’Keeffe: Rubber stamping legislation is what the Taoiseach wants us to do. Mr. Stagg: One would think he was the only one with proposals. The Taoiseach: The energy (miscellaneous provisions) Bill will be published in the next few The Taoiseach: I think we can do it. We often weeks. The Foyle and Carlingford fisheries Bill is watch interesting debates on the Adjournment at also ready for publication. The sea fisheries Bill 9 p.m. which could easily be held in the morning will be published in July. The employers and would be of far more benefit to everyone. (provision of information and consultation) Bill is also ready. The diplomatic relations and Mr. Naughten: The Minister might turn up in immunities (amendment) Bill has been approved the morning. by the Government and is awaiting publication. The Twenty-Eighth Amendment of the Consti- The Taoiseach: Yes. There would be a much tution Bill has been published. The medicines better chance of the Minister turning up in the Bill, approved by the Government, is awaiting morning and someone might report it. If the publication. The criminal justice (international House does not wish to change, I am quite happy co-operation) Bill will be published in July. The to continue with the way we operate, even if it Prisons Bill has been published. The tribunals Bill represents far more than any other Taoiseach will be published in the autumn. The air navi- ever did before. 1069 Order of 29 June 2005. Business 1070

Mr. Crawford: If the Taoiseach says that often Adjournment could be reconfigured to allow enough, he will believe it. Members, especially backbenchers, a greater opportunity for a more fulfilling participation on The Taoiseach: We could improve the current the floor of the House. situation. If everyone believes that it is fine the These are all important matters, but the Chief way it is, that is all right with me. Whip’s current proposal is all about reducing the accountability of the Government. It is not about Mr. Sargent: The Taoiseach talks about enhancing engagement or accountability to the improving matters in the House. It is strange that House. The proposal is therefore flawed and will the proposals from the Green Party and others, make no progress unless it addresses properly the requesting that the Da´il only go into recess for issues to which I referred. the month of August, requesting sittings on The very restrictive way in which the Order of Friday, demanding that the Ceann Comhairle Business operates also needs to be examined. ensures the Taoiseach actually answers There is a failure on the part of the Taoiseach to questions—— respond properly to specific questions put to him. The need for debate on critical areas is ignored. An Ceann Comhairle: I have no power in that A point made on the Order of Business today was whatsoever. completely ignored by the Taoiseach. He gave no Mr. Sargent: We want to change that and give response. A Deputy has just left and we must him that power. make our own judgment on what the silence rep- resents. We spent much time today debating the An Ceann Comhairle: No Chair in the world NESC report on housing. The Taoiseach has has that power. given no indication, six months later, on whether the House will be allowed to debate it. Will the Mr. Stagg: This Ceann Comhairle will be the Government provide time in the resumed session first in the world with such a power. in late September? The Members want to address these important issues on the floor of this Mr. Sargent: The point I am making is that the Chamber. It is incumbent on the Government to Taoiseach claims to want more time for legis- provide those opportunities. lation. We are not stopping him in that and we would welcome that becoming a reality. In the The Taoiseach: I am completely open to meantime, we are very constrained in what we suggestions, but with such suggestions, the Oppo- can do. The claims made about Bills to be pub- sition Members will want it all their way. They lished during the Da´il session are not being hon- want the Government to accept these things. It oured. Does the Taoiseach agree the claims does not work that way. If people want to have should be up to and including the summer recess? sensible dialogue, the Whip will be around most He claims the energy (miscellaneous provisions) of the summer and he will be glad to hear from Bill will not be published this week, despite them. There must be a sense of give and take. promises to the contrary. We have a serious People come with a shopping basket and demand energy crisis in this country. what they want. Others will demand something else. We will continue to have what we have had An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy has made for the 28 years I have been in the House and for his point and is being repetitive. the 28 years before that which is Adjournments at night time. Can people not see that nobody Mr. Sargent: It is a serious point and I raised it takes any notice of them? under Standing Order 31, but it was not agreed to by the Ceann Comhairle. Will the Taoiseach Mr. Gormley: That is because Ministers do not take back his comment that he wants the turn up. parliamentary session extended? Will he acknowledge that nobody is stopping him from extending the time? Mr. Durkan: Ministers do not take the questions. Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in: We must recognise that the Taoiseach’s presence is a critical issue The Taoiseach: We could switch around the when dealing with Da´il reform. Any package of business of the day and make it very productive reforms would have to include the Taoiseach’s if people were really interested. I do not mind accountability to the House on a Thursday. Many and would like to see some changes made. It will Deputies would be open to the idea of extended not matter to me. I will do what I am doing. I was time at the beginning of the week, if some of the asked to make a change a few years ago and did areas to which the Taoiseach alluded could be so. I have been accommodating. It is nice to be accommodated, including Private Members’ time. here and a great honour. While this is a lovely Why should Private Members’ time be confined place to be and all the rest of it, we do not organ- to Tuesday and Wednesday evenings? There is a ise it very effectively. That is all I am saying. It tendency in the greater part of the media to will be the same way in 28 years time, which will ignore much of what is raised. Matters on the certainly not concern me. 1071 Order of 29 June 2005. Business 1072

Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in: The Taoiseach will not Mr. Broughan: The Ceann Comhairle would be here. not let me raise it on two days last week.

The Taoiseach: It is up to Members to make The Taoiseach: The Bill has been taken off the changes or not. list. The Deputy will need to table a question to the Minister to find out when he wants to Mr. Durkan: I was set to extend a warm wel- restore it. come to the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, but he must, Mr. Broughan: It is Taoiseach’s responsibility unfortunately, have been bored with proceedings to ensure that a significant problem is addressed. as he left the House. He is doing nothing about it. The postal service is collapsing while the Taoiseach and the Minister The Taoiseach: He was here for two hours. will not lift a finger.

Mr. Durkan: And the Taoiseach was talking for An Ceann Comhairle: I call Deputy Naughten. most of the time. Mr. Durkan: We did not hear the Taoiseach’s An Ceann Comhairle: Does the Deputy have a reply. question appropriate to the Order of Business? Mr. Broughan: In the Taoiseach’s Mr. Durkan: This is very appropriate to the constituency—— Order of Business as there is a plethora of legis- lation on the introduction of which the Minister An Ceann Comhairle: Deputy Broughan could have enlightened us. The Postal and Tele- should allow the Taoiseach to speak. communications Services Bill was on the Order Mr. Broughan: ——no post has been delivered. Paper but has disappeared. If the Minister had waited for a further five minutes, he could have An Ceann Comhairle: If Deputy Broughan told us when he proposes to restore it to the wants to disrupt the House, we will move on to Order Paper. the next business. It is after 12.30 p.m. and we are moving on to No. 18. An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy has made his point. I call the Taoiseach. Mr. Gormley: Come on. We are sitting here waiting. Mr. Durkan: There is also the energy (miscellaneous provisions) Bill, electricity Bill, Mr. Durkan: Questions on promised legislation electronic communications (miscellaneous must be answered. provisions) Bill, the natural gas regulation Bill ´ and the Bord Ga´is Eireann Bill. While all these An Ceann Comhairle: If Deputy Durkan and are within the Minister’s area of responsibility, he his colleagues behave themselves in the House, could not stay to give information on them. I was the Taoiseach can answer the question. prepared to welcome him to the House. We are not so bad that he should not tolerate us for a The Taoiseach: I answered the question on the little while. I would like a comprehensive answer Postal and Telecommunications Services Bill but to my question. Deputies did not hear me because of interrup- tions. I said the Bill had been removed from the An Ceann Comhairle: If the Deputy would schedule. If the Deputy wants to find out what resume his seat, Deputy Broughan could speak. the Minister will do, he should table a question. It is not on the current list. Mr. Broughan: Can the Taoiseach tell the The electronic communications (miscellaneous House when or if it is intended to restore the provisions) Bill is due later in the year while the Postal and Telecommunications Services Bill to energy (miscellaneous provisions) Bill will be the Order Paper? While I am on my feet—— published during the summer.

An Ceann Comhairle: The Taoiseach should Mr. Naughten: The Railway Safety Bill was reply on legislation. When will the Bill be published in 2001 before the previous general brought back? election and republished after it in autumn 2002. Committee Stage took place in spring 2003. When Mr. Broughan: The Minister who was sitting will we take Report Stage? While I was led to across the way is responsible for the postal service believe by the Department that the legislation obligation to deliver to every household and busi- was ready for Report Stage last June, which is a ness every working day, and this has broken full 12 months ago, it has yet to be brought down. forward.

An Ceann Comhairle: That does not arise on An Ceann Comhairle: Report Stage is a matter the Order of Business. for the House. 1073 Order of 29 June 2005. Business 1074

The Taoiseach: I understand the Bill is ready be dealt with? In light of a case I have encoun- and ordered for Report Stage. I will raise it with tered of a young mother of two who has had no the Minister. financial support since 1 April owing to family dispute, when will the family law Bill be intro- Mr. Costello: Given the continuing fallout from duced to address the issues involved? the Morris tribunal report and controversy on matters requiring clarification, especially the The Taoiseach: The interdepartmental working issue of when the Carty summary was available group has reported to the Minister for Justice, and its substance and the redesignation of a mur- Equality and Law Reform on the register of per- der investigation into a hit and run accident—— sons who are considered unsafe to work with chil- dren and on proposals for the reform of vetting An Ceann Comhairle: Does the Deputy have a of employees by the Garda. The Minister has question appropriate to the Order of Business? appointed an implementation group to advise on implementation and the necessity for legislation. Mr. Costello: ——that was telegraphed to The Departments of Health and Children and nobody for two and a half years, is the Taoiseach Education and Science are in discussion on the prepared to change the terms of reference of the establishment of an employment consultancy Morris tribunal? service. When the process has concluded, they will get back to the legislation. The family law An Ceann Comhairle: That does not arise on Bill will be introduced next year. the Order of the Business. Mr. Sherlock: When is the Landlord and Ten- Mr. Costello: It is a matter for legislation. ant (Ground Rents) Bill, which was withdrawn There are two options. The first is to change the by the Taoiseach, likely to be restored? Will the terms of reference of the tribunal to allow the Taoiseach give a reason as to why it has not been matters outlined to be investigated and the restored to the Order Paper? second is to refer both Morris reports to the Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and The Taoiseach: The Bill is not proceeding as a Women’s Rights, which will meet in July. Supreme Court decision has been made which has implications for it. Officials have not finished An Ceann Comhairle: That does not arise on working through the legislation following the the Order of Business. I suggest the Deputy sub- decision. mit a question. Is there any promise to change the legislation? Mr. Kehoe: The gaming and lotteries (amendment) Bill has been mentioned on a The Taoiseach: There was a promise to debate number of occasions on the Order of Business. the report in the House and it was honoured two The status of the legislation is that its publication weeks ago. is not expected or possible to indicate at this stage. Is there any possibility the Bill can be put Mr. Costello: The committee is meeting in on the pink list, or section A, for the autumn July—— recess?

An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy has made The Taoiseach: I understand there are a his point and is out of order. We must move on number of policy issues and other aspects of the as a number of Deputies are offering and I would proposed legislation which are being re-exam- like to facilitate them. If Deputies continue to dis- ined. Some aspects of the Bill are being dealt with rupt the business of the House, we cannot facili- within the civil law (miscellaneous provisions) tate further speakers. I call Deputy Gormley. Bill while the others are being reviewed.

Mr. Costello: What is the Taoiseach’s reply on Mr. J. O’Keeffe: Can we bet on that? legislation? Ms Shortall: The programme for Government An Ceann Comhairle: The Taoiseach has promised the establishment of a Dublin transport already replied. authority, a Bill for which appeared on the list of promised legislation until quite recently when the Mr. Gormley: When will the House take Government dropped it. As the Minister for Second Stage of the referendum Bill on the EU Transport has recently announced his intention to constitution? establish an authority, can the Taoiseach tell the House whether this is Government policy again? The Taoiseach: As I said recently, the Bill will If so, when can we expect the legislation to estab- not be taken during this session. As we are now lish it? into the period of discussion, it is unlikely to be taken before the end of the year. The Taoiseach: The original Bill on the list was the greater Dublin land use and transport auth- Mr. Crawford: When will the register of people ority Bill. The Government is not proceeding who are considered unsafe to work with children with that legislation and the Minister last week 1075 Order of 29 June 2005. Business 1076

[The Taoiseach.] Mr. Timmins: The State is a 51% stakeholder. announced his intention to re-examine another When will these people be paid? They have been Bill. It is not the same Bill. waiting for three years.

Ms Shortall: I asked if it was now Government An Ceann Comhairle: I ask Deputy Timmins policy to establish a Dublin transport authority. to give way to his colleague, Deputy McManus.

An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy will have to Ms McManus: I am interested in hearing the submit a question to the Minister. I call Deputy answer to that question. Timmins. Mr. Crawford: What about the workers in Ms Shortall: My question is on promised Belfast also? legislation. Mr. Timmins: They have been waiting for An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy has asked three years. the question on legislation and it has been answered. I have called Deputy Timmins. An Ceann Comhairle: Deputy McManus should be allowed to speak without interruption. Ms Shortall: I did not get an answer. I asked the Taoiseach when we can expect the legislation Ms McManus: It would be very welcome if the and he wants to answer it. Taoiseach took the opportunity——

An Ceann Comhairle: If the Deputy does not Mr. Roche: I am reminded of Irish Shipping resume her seat, we will move on to the next and the appalling record of the then Government. business. Ms McManus: ——to answer Deputy Ms Shortall: Why is the Ceann Comhairle Timmins’s question. In view of the fact that he being argumentative? The Taoiseach wants to will not be in the House again I hope the answer. Taoiseach will answer the question Deputy Timmins rightly asked about an area in County An Ceann Comhairle: The Taoiseach has Wicklow. already answered the Deputy’s question. The Ta´naiste and Minister for Health and Chil- dren is launching a major report today on bioeth- Ms Shortall: No, he has not. I asked a question ics in the Irish Council for Bioethics in regard to on legislation. the disposal of human organs. This issue has caused great anguish and distress to many The Taoiseach: All the various aspects of the families across the country. When this issue first legislation are being examined by the Minister became known, the Government promised a and it is his intention to bring forward a Bill to human tissues Bill. When will the Bill be tidy up the outstanding matters. published?

Ms Shortall: When? An Ceann Comhairle: The Taoiseach to reply on the human tissues Bill. The Taoiseach: As soon as possible. Ms McManus: I have a second question. A Mr. Stagg: That put the Ceann Comhairle in craven decision was made by the Ta´naiste not to his place. introduce risk equalisation which would ensure—— Mr. Timmins: When can we expect to see the company law consolidation and reform Bill? An Ceann Comhairle: I am sorry, Deputy When will the State pay small time creditors in McManus raised that yesterday. Arklow? Three years have passed—— Ms McManus: ——proper competition in the An Ceann Comhairle: The first question on health insurance market. May I ask the Taoiseach legislation is in order. again, since tomorrow we will have——

The Taoiseach: Next year. An Ceann Comhairle: That question was dealt with yesterday. Mr. Timmins: When will the many small family businesses in Arklow and south Wicklow be Ms McManus: I hope the Ceann Comhairle will paid? give me the same courtesy he gave to Deputy O´ Caola´in to allow me to finish my question. An Ceann Comhairle: I call Deputy McManus. Deputy Timmins, we cannot have a debate on the An Ceann Comhairle: Standing Order 26 issue now. applies to everybody, even Deputy McManus. 1077 Treaty of Amsterdam: 29 June 2005. Motion 1078

Mr. Roche: It applies to the nobility as well. Ms McManus: We are never going to get it.

An Ceann Comhairle: We have to move on to The Taoiseach: I will ask the Ta´naiste to give the next business. Deputy McManus an answer, but it is not listed.

Ms McManus: Even half the time would be a Mr. Quinn: The Taoiseach misled the House welcome change. earlier this morning in reply to Leaders’ Ques- tions. Will he take the opportunity before the An Ceann Comhairle: No Chair in the past has House rises to correct the record? He may not allowed as many questions on the Order of Busi- have been aware of it, but he said in regard to ness. I expect the Deputy to live within Standing the commitment to overseas aid that the United Order 26. States had no dedicated target. He was wrong. In the year 2002 in the Monterey—— Mr. Roche: The aristocracy believes the rules apply to the ordinary people. An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy has made his point. That does not arise on the Order of Ms McManus: The Taoiseach might reply on Business. whether we may have a short debate on the matter of risk equalisation tomorrow. When is Mr. Quinn: I want to facilitate the Taoiseach. I this Bill coming back and can we deal with an want to tell him where he was wrong and give issue of central concern to people currently sub- him the opportunity to correct it. scribing to VHI. An Ceann Comhairle: We cannot have a An Ceann Comhairle: It does not arise on the debate on the matter. The Deputy has made his Order of Business. Is a debate promised? point. Does the Taoiseach wish to respond?

The Taoiseach: No, the first Bill is not listed. Mr. Quinn: If you had not interrupted me, a Cheann Comhairle, I would have been finished An Ceann Comhairle: I call Deputy Quinn. by this stage.

Ms McManus: I am sorry but it is promised An Ceann Comhairle: The Chair does not legislation. interrupt.

The Taoiseach: It is not listed so I cannot tell Mr. Quinn: In the Monterey consensus, the when it will come forward. United States committed itself to the 0.7% ODA target. The Taoiseach may wish at some stage to Ms McManus: When will we get it? correct the wrong he told the House earlier today. The Taoiseach: It is not listed so I cannot tell the Deputy when it will be ready. Deputy The Taoiseach: I was advised last week by all McManus should table a question to the Ta´naiste the NGOs, who are the experts in this area, that because it is not on the list. the United States would not state a target. In my meeting with many of the G8 leaders last Friday, Ms McManus: That is a stupid thing to say, I they told me that the United States has no target. cannot table a question to the Minister. If it has a target then I am wrong, but it was dis- played on an excellent chart and clearly put to A Deputy: The Minister will be on holiday for me that Condoleezza Rice had refused to quote three months. a target. That was the source of my information. President Clinton was right when he said that if Mr. Durkan: The Minister could answer. his country did half of what we did, he would be very proud of it. Ms McManus: Will the Taoiseach indicate to the House when the promised legislation which is Mr. Allen: They do not break promises at the entitled the human tissues Bill—— UN.

An Ceann Comhairle: I call Deputy Quinn. Mr. Wall: Given the major development pro- posed in regard to the Curragh racecourse, when Ms McManus: ——which was promised by the will the Curragh of Kildare Bill come before the Government—— House?

An Ceann Comhairle: I have called Deputy The Taoiseach: In the autumn session. Quinn. Treaty of Amsterdam: Motion. Ms McManus: When will we have it? Minister of State at the Department of the The Taoiseach: It is not listed. Taoiseach (Mr. Kitt): I move: 1079 Planning and Development Regulations: 29 June 2005. Motion 1080

[Mr. Kitt.] least because it allows the Opposition parties to That Da´il E´ ireann approves the exercise by make a positive input. Members will accept that the State of the option or discretion provided I have been forthcoming in that regard. I have by Article 1.11 of the Treaty of Amsterdam to always been willing to listen and involve the take part in the adoption of the following pro- Opposition and, where possible, to change. posed measure: Oddly, the proposition was opposed by the Green proposal for a Council Decision on the Party and I am mystified as to why it chose to do exchange of information and co-operation that. The party is not represented here now so we concerning terrorist offences, a copy of will probably never know. which proposed measure was laid before The first amendment will require shop owners Da´il E´ ireann on 16 June 2005. who wish to change the use of their premises to an off-licence to obtain planning permission. Question put and declared carried. Under the planning and development regulations 2001, a change of use from a shop to an off- licence does not currently require planning per- Planning and Development Regulations: mission. This has always struck me as very odd. Motion. Planning permission is needed to open a chipper, Minister for the Environment, Heritage and for example, yet no planning permission is Local Government (Mr. Roche): I move: needed to open a full-blown off-licence to sell all That Da´il E´ ireann approves the following forms of beer, wines and spirits. Whatever about regulations in draft: chippers, there is no shortage of off-licence out- lets. The Commission on Liquor Licensing, Planning and Development Regulations Interim Report on Off-Licensing, published in 2005, May 2001, evidently shared my long-held view on copies of which were laid in draft form before this. It recommended that permission should be Da´il E´ ireann on 16 June 2005. needed for a change of shop use to an off-licence. I am pleased to move this motion, the adoption The number of shops changing use to off- of which by both Houses of the Oireachtas will licence or expanding into the sale of alcohol has pave the way for the planning and development increased significantly in recent years. The regulations to be amended in three different increase in off-licences has arisen both from ways: first, to make it a requirement for shops changes to the restrictions on the transfer of an that wish to change into an off-licence or to sell intoxicating liquor licence and from changes in alcohol to obtain planning permission; second, to the way in which people socialise and drink. facilitate consideration of the need for an These changes have had an impact on our streets environmental impact assessment, EIA, of peat and communities. There is therefore a land use extraction projects, that are currently exempted issue that must be tackled through the planning development, by referring to criteria set out in code. By bringing the matter into the planning the environmental impact assessment directive; code I am giving local communities and council- and, third, to reflect in the Irish planning regu- lors a say in the matter. lations a technical change to annex I and annex II I have therefore decided to amend the defini- of the environmental impact assessment directive tion of a shop in the planning and development which lists project categories that require regulations 2001 so that a shop changing use to environmental impact assessment. The change is that of an off-licence, or expanding what it sells needed because the environmental impact assess- to include alcohol, will in future require planning ment directive has been amended by the Aarhus permission. The change will not affect the sale of Directive 2003/35/EC. wine as a subsidiary to the main use of the prem- Positive approval of this House is needed for ises as a shop. The sale of wine from a corner any change to the exemptions under the planning fridge, which is a minor element of the overall code, whether the change adds an exemption or trade of the shop, will not be affected by this limits exemptions, as these changes do. I had sug- change. Lest Members jump to any conclusion, gested that these changes would be discussed in they should note that the Commission on Liquor an Oireachtas committee. I believe that would Licensing supported my conclusion on this have been a much better approach from the point of view of everybody in the House but partic- matter. ularly from the point of view of the Opposition. It would have been a good and appropriate use Mr. O’Dowd: No. of committee time. That format would have allowed for a freer and more extensive exchange Mr. Roche: Yes, it did. of views than is possible in the 60 minutes we have available in the House. Mr. O’Dowd: I have the document here. I can As Members will know, I have for a long time show it to the Minister. been an advocate of the more extensive use of parliamentary committees, particularly for techni- Mr. Roche: If the Deputy reads it, he will note cal issues such as those under discussion here, not that it was very specific. 1081 Planning and Development Regulations: 29 June 2005. Motion 1082

Mr. O’Dowd: I will allude to it line by line as in these designated areas is subject to separate soon as the Minister sits down. conservation controls not touched on in this change. Mr. Roche: The change will allow planning The designation of peatland sites in natural authorities to exercise control over the major heritage areas should be substantially completed increase in large-scale off-licences and address by the end of July 2005, other than in respect of the genuine concerns of local communities. The a relatively small number of sites where proposed change is a very positive step. It will give local designation is under appeal. Therefore, the Com- communities a direct input into the development mission’s sole concern relates to peat extraction and establishment of off-licences in their of less than 10 hectares outside designated areas. areas. I apologise to the House for the extraordinarily This has been an area of genuine concern for complicated nature of this subject. communities in recent years as more and more We are confident this amendment to the plan- outlets for the sale of beer, spirits and wine have ning regulations will greatly assist in avoidance of sprung up. It is not my intention that this pro- a daily fine for non-implementation and will not posed regulation should be used to prevent con- have any dire impact on traditional peat extrac- sumer choice or to inhibit competition. Rather, tion or turf cutting. the intention is to give communities and councils The final amendment is a technical amendment a right to determine what can and cannot happen to Schedule 5 of the 2001 regulations reflecting in their planning areas. The change will ensure a relatively minor change to the environmental better planning in our towns. impact assessment directive, annexes I and II. The second amendment will facilitate consider- Part I of the schedule lists the project categories ation of the need for the environmental impact for which an environmental impact assessment is assessment of peat extraction projects, which fall mandatory. Part II lists the project categories for under the heading of exempted development, but which mandatory thresholds have been set. which could have significant effects on the envir- The amendments are designed to ensure that onment by reference to criteria set out in the any change to, or extension of, a project in Part environmental impact assessment directive. The I will, in itself, require an environmental impact criteria in this regard relate to the characteristics assessment where such a change or extension of the proposed development, its size, use of meets any relevant threshold in Part 1. As cur- natural resources and so on. The environmental rently drafted, such an assessment is mandatory sensitivity of the areas affected is also a consider- only where a development increases by 25%, or ation, as is the potential for significant effects. an amount equal to 50% of the appropriate thres- At present the planning regulations of 2001 hold, whichever is the greater. This is more likely exempt those involved in peat extraction from the to have an impact on other member states than requirement to apply for permission and conduct on Ireland because Ireland has a propensity to an environmental impact assessment in the case use environmental impact assessments much of peat extraction in a new or extended area of more frequently than other member states. less than ten hectares, or peat extraction in a new This change to the lists of project categories or extended area of ten hectares or more where transposes part of Directive No. 2003/35/EC, the drainage of the bogland commenced prior to commonly known as the Aarhus directive. This the coming into force of these regulations. directive provides for public participation in The European Commission has indicated a respect of the drawing up of certain plans and concern in this area and action is needed. This programmes relating to the environment and change is a response to that concern. Following amending with regard to public participation and negotiations, the Commission is agreed that its access to justice. The transposition of the Aarhus concern regarding the transposition of the directive will, for the most part, be achieved environmental impact assessment directive, No. through regulations under the European Com- 85/337/EEC, as amended by Directive No. munities Act 1972, and further amendments to 97/11/EC, as it relates to peat extraction can be the planning and development regulations. Work resolved by a qualification to the existing plan- is in progress on the latter two sets of regulations. ning exemption. The exemption would not apply I intend that the necessary implementation where peat extraction is likely to have significant measures will be adopted during the summer. effects on the environment. On the overall position on European Union This would allow the planning authority to environmental legislation, I assure the House I assess whether a peat extraction project would am fully aware of the importance of timely trans- have a significant impact. Where it would have position and correct implementation of such such an impact, the authority can step in and legislation. There are now some 200 items of require the preparation of a planning application European Union legislation transposed in this and, if necessary, an environmental impact country, including more than 140 directives. The statement. challenge following transposition is effective The Commission is solely concerned with peat implementation. In cases where the Commission extraction activity covered by the planning feels member states have failed to satisfactorily exemptions but outside of special areas of conser- transpose European Union legislation into their vation and natural heritage areas. Peat extraction national laws and implement it effectively, the 1083 Planning and Development Regulations: 29 June 2005. Motion 1084

[Mr. Roche.] Mr. O’Dowd: I would like the Minister to be a issue is raised in correspondence with member man of his word. In a recent reply to a parliamen- states. If agreement is not reached on how to tary question by Deputy , he address the issue, the Commission may take a stated he would, in a very short period, introduce case to the European Court of Justice. However, changes to the Planning and Development Regu- the vast majority of issues are resolved without lations 2005. One of the commitments he made recourse to that court. in the reply—Idonotknow whether he or his The European Commission’s Fifth Annual Sur- Department officials wrote it — was that he vey on the implementation and enforcement of would address the need for a uniform planning Community environmental law showed Ireland’s application form throughout the country. The overall performance to be average in comparison reply stated he would also address the fact that a to our European Union partners. This means we very significant number of applications are actu- are not “bottom of the class”, as is often sug- ally turned down by local authorities, as brought gested, particularly by the Green Party, whose to his attention by Deputy Olivia Mitchell. These members are not present. However, it also means two issues are very serious. I understand from we still have much work to do in this area. Deputy Olivia Mitchell that approximately 50% My Department, through the local authorities, of the applications in her area are turned down the Environmental Protection Agency and the by the county council because of errors made in Office of Environmental Enforcement continues filling out application forms. Has the Minister to work towards maintaining a high level of honoured his word regarding these issues? Has he environmental protection for Ireland, and to made the necessary changes to the regulations? addressing any alleged cases of infringement of Clearly, they have not been made. Neither is European Union environment law. there clarity of thought or intent, which the Government ought to demonstrate in dealing The task force, which I established in my with these issues. Department to address the range of environmen- In spite of all the changes the Minister is mak- tal complaints against Ireland in a more compre- ing, any existing premises that has a licence from hensive way and which was mentioned previously the courts to sell alcohol can and will continue to at a meeting of the Oireachtas Joint Committee do so. There is no change whatsoever, provided on Environment and Local Government, has they continue to comply with the law in every been fully operational for some months. In respect. However, every new business, con- addressing its work, the task force has intensified venience store and shop around the country can engagement with Commission officials. They sell wine from the fridge. It does not need to be have been very positive in that regard. The task the substantial business of the premises, but can force has also intensified engagement with the represent a very large portion. It will not be the implementing agencies in Ireland. Minister’s concept of a little corner fridge, and The task force has undertaken a systematic that is where he is making a mistake. He is requir- analysis of each case that is the subject of ing people who want to sell beer, which has a infringement proceedings by the European Com- lower alcohol content than wine, and spirits to mission and for which my Department is respon- apply for planning permission. However, he is not sible. This analysis has facilitated accelerated requiring those who sell wine only to do so. His responses by Ireland to Commission concerns in proposal is ambiguous and lacks clarity. a number of cases. It should also help to improve The interim report of the liquor licensing com- our response to any infringement complaints in mission strongly disputes some of the issues. The future, and to provide full information on the Minister refers to councillors and the community excellent ongoing work being undertaken having a say with regard to an off- towards fulfilling our compliance with our Euro- 1 o’clock licence. Due and proper space is pean Union obligations. given for that in the courts. It is very I commend these amendments to the House. clear that an applicant for an off-licence must As I stated at the outset, the amendments are comply with the usual conditions regarding suit- very technical. It would have been far more pro- ability of premises and the other grounds for ductive if we had all agreed to handle these tech- objection as contained in section 18 of the 2000 nical matters at a committee meeting. I know Act. The applicant must go before the court and Fine Gael and the Labour Party were in general due notice should be given. This is to ensure gen- agreement with me in this regard. A committee eral conformity with legislation and to give the meeting would have been a much better way to public and authorities proper grounds for objec- proceed than proceeding according to the tion. When people object to an application, they requirement the Green Party imposed on us, are not objecting on grounds of planning or the which its members are not present to meet. physical premises but because they do not want it in their neighbourhood and perhaps it has been Mr. O’Dowd: I wish to share time with badly run in the past. All the issues and objec- Deputy Naughten. tions people raise can be dealt with properly and entirely through the courts system. Acting Chairman (Mr. Ardagh): Is that The commission recommends: “Should a full agreed? Agreed. off-licence be required ... then the applicant shall 1085 Planning and Development Regulations: 29 June 2005. Motion 1086 be obliged to obtain planning permission and Mr. O’Dowd: The Minister has taken one side shall satisfy the Court at the hearing ... that any and we have taken the other. This regulation is conditions have been complied with.” This is in heavy-handed and does not make sense. I agree the interests of good planning practice and con- with proper regulation. Perhaps the Minister formity with general practice to ensure that the should have considered the sale of beer, but he lay-out of the premises is suitable. It does not did not take that option. In America, low-alcohol make sense to introduce a planning application beers are available in convenience stores, but not process for the sale of beer and whiskey but not those with a higher alcohol content. The avail- for bottles of wine. Deputy Perry informed me ability of spirits and alcopops is a very serious that for every bottle of whiskey sold, ten bottles issue. The whole situation is a mess and the Mini- of wine go out the door. The Minister has swal- ster has not thought it through. I therefore lowed this line—— oppose the regulation. What happened to the promises made by the Mr. Naughten: It is one way of getting rid of Minister in his written reply to Deputy Olivia the European wine lake. Mitchell? The Minister has again come to the lob- by’s defence. Mr. O’Dowd: The Minister will turn us into a nation of winos. Mr. Naughten: A lot done, more to do. I wel- come the opportunity to speak on the regulation. Mr. Roche: It would be helpful if the Deputy I agree with the Minister it is disappointing that read recommendation 54. we do not have more time to tease this out in committee. I will raise a number of points regard- Mr. O’Dowd: I am reading the recommend- ing the Minister’s proposals—— ations. I am not finished and I will not let the Minister off lightly. Mr. Roche: The Deputy should accept that it is not the Minister’s fault. Mr. Naughten: Recommendation 54 is a long way down the list. Mr. Naughten: I accept that. Five minutes in which to reply to all these queries is wholly inad- Mr. O’Dowd: The Minister should not open his equate. A committee is the proper place to tease mouth too soon. I will not suggest that he will out such issues. turn the country into a nation of winos. Alcohol is a very serious issue and the people who spoke Mr. Roche: The Deputy should ask the Green up at the commission against this proposal should Party about that. be listened to. The members of the commission considered that the acquisition of a full off- Mr. Naughten: This issue was discussed in 2000 licence for any premises involved a change of use and there was a significant amount of debate on of which the public should be made aware and this specific proposal. should be entitled to object to at the planning I am disappointed the issue of afforestation has stage. This recommendation was not acceptable not been considered in respect of the regulations. to Ms Carmel Foley, the Director of Consumer There is concern in the Minister’s county, as well Affairs, Ms Isolde Goggin of the Competition as in many other counties, because the provisions Authority and Mr. Brian Whitney representing do not allow a mechanism for public objection to the Department of Enterprise, Trade and forestry in instances when a community or indi- Employment on the grounds that any genuine vidual is completely isolated by the type of for- planning issues are already covered by existing estry development taking place. The only mech- planning and licensing laws and this provision anism available at this time is to object to the presents an unnecessary and unwarranted barrier grant support that they may be eligible to apply to entry to the business. for through the Department of Agriculture and Ms Ailish Forde, RGDATA, considered the Food. Will the Minister look at that specific scrutiny of the courts to be sufficient and the issue? involvement of planning authorities inappropri- The issue of peat extraction is close to my ate. On the other hand, some of the members heart. This proposal has been brought forward were of the view that a planning permission because of the decision by the European Court requirement should also apply to new wine-only of Justice. What has been the major change with licences. These members were Messrs. Frank Fell, regard to that decision from September 1999? Licensed Vintners Association, Michael Murphy, This issue was discussed and debated in the IBEC, Tadgh O’Sullivan, Vintners Federation of House in 2000. A proposal was put forward at Ireland, and John Power, Irish Hotels Federation. that time and the then Minister, Deputy Noel On one side people are trying to vindicate con- Dempsey, said that with regard to the environ- sumer rights and competition and on the other mental impact assessment, he was examining the there are people with an interest in the business. requirement to reduce the threshold of 50 hec- The Minister has clearly taken one side—— tares. He said that this would address the con- cerns of the European Court in a transparent Mr. Roche: Both sides are wrong. manner and that there should be no further diffi- 1087 Planning and Development Regulations: 29 June 2005. Motion 1088

[Mr. Naughten.] that, on the edge of bogs. Cutting turf in such culty when it was done. However, it seems that plots using a hopper will not have a detrimental there is further difficulty. Where did the Minister, environmental impact. Deputy Dempsey, slip up with regard to this I do not know the reason for these new defini- issue? He seemed to be incompetent in respect of tions and changes in the rules. The former Mini- many areas when he was in charge of this brief, ster, Deputy Noel Dempsey, said that he but how did he slip up with regard to this spec- addressed this issue in 2000, so how have the ific matter? sands shifted regarding the same European Court The word “significant” gives rise to huge con- of Justice decision? I would like an answer to that cern in my constituency where people who cut question. I would also like a firm commitment turf, either for their own use or on a small com- from the Minister that this will not have an mercial basis, could be roped in under this defini- impact on turf-cutting on a small, commercial tion. Many bog owners and people with turbary basis or by individuals on their own or a neigh- rights cut turf on an acre plot. Half of the plot bour’s bank in County Roscommon and has been traditionally cut out and most active elsewhere. plots are approximately half an acre in size. Once Will the Minister examine a proposal that was the turbary rights are exhausted people must find put forward to the Oireachtas Joint Committee some other form of fuel. However, the difficulty on Environment and Local Government, for the is that if one takes turf cutting on a contiguous development of a wetland wilderness park in the basis on a bank of turf where individuals all along cutaway bogs of the north midlands? It would that bank have half-acre plots, one could very have a major economic benefit from a tourism easily reach some of the thresholds in the regu- point of view in that region. I ask the Minister to lations. Then some official in the local authority give serious consideration to that proposal which or an alleged do-gooder from some part of the is being submitted to his office. European Union, who is visiting here and wants turf-cutting to be abolished because all the turf in Mr. Gilmore: I agree with the Minister that this his or her country has been cut, could decide that motion should have been considered by an the turf-cutting has a significant effect. All of a Oireachtas committee where we could have sudden, individuals who are cutting three or four teased it out in greater detail. I do not accept, spreads of turf for their use and that of their however, the Minister placing the blame for that neighbours will have to apply for planning per- on the Green Party. Obviously, Deputy Cuffe can mission and conduct an environmental impact answer for his party in that respect, but I do not assessment. That is the concern about these buy that the Minister did not bring his proposal regulations. to an Oireachtas committee because the Green The way that environmental impact is defined Party objected to it. If that were the case, many in the regulations could give rise to a situation proposals that are brought to the House or to where people who are cutting turf on a small, committees would never appear. It is the first commercial basis or for their own use will be time I have ever heard that a Minister would not required to have an environmental impact assess- bring a proposal to a committee because an ment carried out because of the issue of taking a Opposition party of any size objected to it. I do number of turf banks together along a particular not buy that argument. bog. In that scenario, it is not just one individual half-acre plot. There could be a number of plots Mr. Roche: There must be unanimous agree- along the bank to be cut. That would be the nor- ment to bring a proposal in that way. mal procedure in that an operator would come in with a digger and a hopper, cut along the length Mr. Gilmore: There is a different reason, which of the bank, the turf would be spread out, dried, I will come to in a moment. The motion has the saved and then transported. potential to cause uproar in rural areas. The pro- Livelihoods are at stake. Many contractors posals before the House relating to peat extrac- have put significant investment into upgrading tion are a Trojan horse. The Minister may be their equipment. There has been much talk about right in saying that the proposals arise from the the impact of turf cutting on blanket and raised judgement of the European Court of Justice and bogs, but there has been very little acknowledg- the prospect that this country will face a daily fine ment of the fact that operators have moved away of \26,000 if the issue is not addressed. However, from the use of the sausage machine, owing to the European Court of Justice imposed that fine the assistance and encouragement provided by two years ago. The Minister had two years to my colleague on this side of the House, Deputy bring the issue before an Oireachtas committee; Michael D. Higgins, and now use the hopper pro- he did not have to leave it until the last week cedure which does not have the same type of before the Da´il rises for the summer. negative environmental impact. As well as that, Furthermore, the issue first arose six years ago we must realise that we are talking about small in 1999 and the Government had plenty of time plots on the edge of bogs. The majority of bogs to bring proposals on this issue to an Oireachtas in this country are either State owned or State committee or into the body of the House if it was controlled. We are referring to half-acre plots in of the mind to do so. We now have a motion, many cases, and sometimes even smaller than introduced two days before the Da´il rises, which 1089 Planning and Development Regulations: 29 June 2005. Motion 1090 will give rise to set of circumstances which will by the Minister to deflect the flak that will inevit- result in people who have traditionally cut turf ably arise from this matter. for their own use on their own bogs now having Two issues have been used to dress this up and to obtain planning permission and undertake an make it look like it we are dealing with some environmental impact assessment before the turf wider amendment of the planning regulations. can be cut. The first is to do with off-licences and I do not When the uproar starts — and this is where I have any disagreement with the Minister’s intent. come back to the Green Party — and the back Clearly where a shop selling sweets and news- bench Deputies of the Minister’s party and the papers is converting to an off-licence, it should be Government parties are confronted with it in required to apply for a change of use permission. their constituencies, they will blame the Green However, the situation is not always as clear-cut Party. They will say that the Green Party would as that example and the Minister has left it not allow the matter to be discussed. That is what ambiguous. the blame of the Green Party is about. The new off-licence arrangements are very often in conjunction with an other activity which Mr. Roche: That is nonsense. The Deputy takes place in the shop. Typically, a filling station should tell the truth to the House. He knows what builds a new 24-hour shop, part of which sells he is saying is disingenuous and untruthful. alcohol. It is not entirely clear and I am not entirely clear in my mind whether it will be neces- Mr. Gilmore: Let us examine what is being pro- sary for those who have already done so to apply posed here. The Minister has found a formula to for retention. I am not clear as to where the dis- get around the judgment of the European Court tinction lies between what the Minister describes of Justice and it is that an environmental impact as wine being sold from a fridge and part of a assessment will be required where there is a sig- shop being used for the sale of alcohol and nificant impact on the environment. However, if neither is it clear which activity will require plan- one examines the criteria for that, one sees that ning permission. I am not clear if there is a dis- they are wide open. tinction between the sale of wine and the sale of Deputy Naughten is right. If this was a beers. Is the sale of beer from a fridge exempted situation where one was talking about individuals from planning permission whereas the sale of cutting turf with their own slea´n on their own beer outside a fridge requires planning per- bank in their own bog, it would probably be fine. mission? It is a pity the House did not have more However, that is not what is happening now. time to tease out these areas of ambiguity. These days a machine goes onto a bog and cuts I refer to the definition of “shop” in the turf for a number of people. By my reckoning, motion. The sale of hot food is also being once a machine is cutting for around 20 people, excluded. I am a little puzzled at this provision. it will be covered by these regulations and the Many shops sell hot food nowadays, in particular, operator will have to submit to an environmental filling station shops with a takeaway hot food impact assessment. This is why this issue should counter. Will separate planning permission be have been teased out in an Oireachtas committee required for the hot food arrangement? Some and not in the last week of the Da´il session. It newer supermarkets also sell hot food. Will they should have been dealt with long before now. be required to apply for a separate planning per- This matter was held over until the last week, if mission? I note this is listed in the definition of not the last minute, so that the Minister could be what is being exempted from the definition of a in and out in no time and when the turf hits the shop. fan, so to speak, he can blame the Green Party. The second area turfed in, so to speak, with the That is the politics of this. peat extraction issue which is the reason for this motion, is the Aarhus Convention. What is delay- Mr. Naughten: What is more, Bord na Mo´ na is ing the implementation of the convention and exempt from the regulations. why is only a portion of it being given effect in Mr. Roche: I have heard some conspiracy the- these regulations, particularly when the conven- ories, but that one certainly takes the biscuit. One tion was to have been implemented last week- can always depend on the Labour Party for a spot end? Why is the entire convention not being of mendacious misinterpretation. implemented? We had an exchange in the House yesterday about the Minister’s planned infrastruc- Mr. Gilmore: The Minister can depend on my tural legislation. Why is the thrust of that pro- party to see what is going on. posal moving away from the Aarhus Convention? The convention is partly about making infor- Mr. Roche: The Deputy is being untruthful and mation on environmental matters available to the I am disappointed in him. public but it is also concerned with the right of the public to participate in environmental Mr. Gilmore: I expect that the Minister will decision-making from an early stage. The public confront a few angry public meetings on this issue does not have the right to be involved at an early in his own county. That is all in front of him, but stage in respect of major infrastructural projects what I want to nail here is the bit of political clev- in particular. In the case of the third pillar which erality, to coin a phrase, that is being engaged in is the right to challenge in a court of law public 1091 Priority 29 June 2005. Questions 1092

[Mr. Gilmore.] Patrick’s Day in recent years. The off-licences in decisions made with regard either to information O’Connell Street cannot be blamed for all those or public consultation, the thrust of the proposed disturbances but it provides an example of where legislation is away from the Aarhus Convention. the situation needs to be checked. I ask the Minister to address two questions. Why The reference to hot food causes me some con- is only a part of the Aarhus Convention being cern. Modern living is convenience living and implemented? Why does Ireland appear to drift people will call into whatever little shop opens away from the principles enshrined in it? up. Most filling stations and local shops now have This motion is to amend the planning regu- a hot plate area offering a range of hot, preco- lations and to address the area of exempted oked food. I am worried they may be caught in development. I am surprised the Minister did not the net. Such services are an integral part of mod- take the opportunity to address the problems ern living. If those shops were to seek planning associated with the erection of mobile telephone permission and face objections from a competitor masts and antennae. The Minister must be aware up the road and then be required to go through that considerable problems have arisen in many the process of an appeal to An Bord Pleana´la, it parts of the country with regard to the erection would be a retrograde step and I would not wel- of masts and antennae on public property and come such a move. The hot food element is suf- claims being made that they are exempted ficiently regulated. development. Bodies such as CIE or ESB have erected them on their sites and claim exemptions Sitting suspended at 1.30 p.m. and resumed at because they are related in some way to their 2.30 p.m. activities or are part of a shared facility for some other purpose. This is an issue that has caused Ceisteanna — Questions (Resumed). considerable problems. If this motion is con- cerned with changing the regulations on exempted developments, I am surprised the Mini- Priority Questions. ster did not take the opportunity to deal with this issue. The answer to that question is connected to ———— my first point about this motion. Departmental Programmes. This motion is about slipping through the dra- matic change in peat extraction and turf cutting 11. Mr. English asked the Minister for Com- under the guise that this is some innocuous, tech- munity, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs if he is satis- nical change in planning regulations. When those fied with the amount spent on the RAPID members of the public who will be affected scheme to date; his views on the fact that this become aware of it, the Minister and his col- programme will end on completion of the leagues will then blame it all on the Green Party. national development plan in 2006; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [23013/05] Mr. Roche: The Deputy can do better than Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht that. Affairs (E´ amon O´ Cuı´v): As the Deputy is aware, my Department, supported by Area Develop- Mr. Gilmore: The Minister has got it in one; ment Management, ADM, Limited, co-ordinates bull’s-eye. the implementation of the RAPID programme. It is, therefore, a matter for each Department to Mr. Morgan: I wish to share my time with report on progress on the implementation of Deputies Cuffe and Catherine Murphy. RAPID and details of funding allocations to the I agree with the previous speaker and with the projects that fall within the remit of their Minister when he stated that this motion should Department. have been referred to a parliamentary committee However, Departments were asked recently to for discussion. This would have provided a better track funding against specific projects submitted opportunity to tease it out and the exchange of in RAPID plans from each area. While this exer- information would have been a better exercise cise is still under way, I am informed by ADM than this present one which is in the old format that Departments have to date reported a spend of both sides shouting across the floor of the in the order of \300 million in RAPID areas since House at each other. While I am not totally con- the inception of the programme. It should be vinced by the conspiracy theories it would have noted that this amount relates solely to specific been a better format than the one we are cur- projects in RAPID plans and does not include rently enjoying. funding for RAPID areas by Departments, which I welcome the regulation relating to off- are in addition to the RAPID plans. licences because this is an area requiring tighter Despite a slow start the RAPID programme is regulation. A walk through O’Connell Street will now making a valuable contribution in provide examples of small shops and supermar- disadvantaged communities. However, as the kets substantially engaged in off sales of alcohol Deputy will appreciate, tackling disadvantage will and the consequential contribution of that require long-term commitment by Government activity to disturbances. Significant alcohol- and in this regard I believe that the RAPID prog- related disturbances have occurred on St. ramme should continue beyond 2006. 1093 Priority 29 June 2005. Questions 1094

The programme is progressing on a number of accounts plan. RAPID areas have benefited from levels in tandem and clearly the benefits at local 57.5% of the \56.2 million in funding allocated level are becoming evident. In the first instance, to date. many small-scale proposals from RAPID plans Discussions are ongoing with Departments are being dealt with more effectively at local regarding prioritisation of other non-capital level. A dedicated fund of \7.5 million has been actions included in the AIT plans. put in place in 2005 to support small-scale capital As the Deputy is aware, the RAPID prog- projects, through co-funding with other Depart- ramme is running in conjunction with the ments or local agencies as appropriate. I have National Development Plan 2000-2006. While no announced a number of co-funded schemes this formal decisions have been taken on the lifetime year. of the RAPID programme, the indications are Further funding has been allocated to two that it will continue post-2006. schemes that operated in 2004. Total funding of \4.5 million is available over two years — Mr. English: I thank the Minister for his reply. 2005-06 — for the local authority housing estate I do not doubt his commitment to the RAPID enhancement scheme, which is co-funded with programme nor the essential need for it. We esti- local authorities through the Department of the mate that \300 million has been spent under it Environment, Heritage and Local Government. but we were informed by the Taoiseach that \2 Small-scale capital works to enhance the physical billion would be spent under it. environment within local authority housing estates and flat complexes are supported under E´ amon O´ Cuı´v: Members were not so this scheme. The RAPID playgrounds scheme, informed. which provides funding for the development or refurbishment of playgrounds has also been Mr. English: We were. That is written down. It launched again this year, with total funding of \3 is a commitment in the programme for million being provided by my Department and Government. the Department of Health and Children through the Health Service Executive. E´ amon O´ Cuı´v: When was that? This year I announced a new traffic measures scheme for RAPID areas with total funding of Mr. English: A number of years ago, prior to \2.025 million. This scheme is being co-funded 2002. I can provide proof of that for the Minister with local authorities and will support small-scale if he so wishes. However, that is another broken capital works to improve road safety in RAPID promise. An estimated \300 million has been areas. spent under the programme. All Departments Total funding of \4.6 million is being made have been asked to submit reports on funding available by my Department and the Department under it and so on. Departments must not have of Health and Children through the Health spent much under this programme because they Service Executive on a 50:50 basis to support a are not shouting about it. The Minister’s col- range of health and community projects in leagues in government are not shy when it comes RAPID areas. to making announcements on the spending of My colleague, the Minister for Justice, Equality money. Why is there not a separate subhead for and Law Reform, recently invited applications for this programme in each Department’s Estimate? funding under the community based CCTV In that way we would know exactly what is spent scheme. My Department will provide funding in on the RAPID programme. The people do not addition to resources allocated by the Depart- know the exact amount being spent on it, and ment of Justice, Equality and Law Reform to suc- they need to know that. cessful applications from RAPID areas that are People were led up the garden path in terms of endorsed by the area implementation teams. A the RAPID programme. People in my com- number of other co-funded measures are under munity became involved in this issue, attended consideration and I expect to make further many meetings and met elected representatives announcements on this matter. to put forward new ideas for projects under the As regards the larger projects from RAPID RAPID programme. They have plenty of ideas plans that have been submitted to Departments, but funding under the programme is not coming these will continue to be considered for funding through quickly enough. The Minister’s Depart- within existing funding streams in each Depart- ment was allocated only \7.5 million for the prog- ment. However, I expect that Departments will ramme this year and \4.5 million last year, and deal with a smaller number of projects and will his Department is central to this programme. I therefore be in a better position to prioritise pro- hope we will hear major announcements in jects and set out timescales for further actions. regard to the programme next year and the year Work on improving integration and co-ordi- after. nation of service delivery at local level will also The Minister has twice publicly said, for which continue as this is a key component of the I commend him, that the RAPID programme is RAPID programme. essential and should continue. Is there something Special provision was made by the Govern- about it we do not know? Is there a doubt about ment for RAPID areas under the dormant the future of the programme when the NDP 1095 Priority 29 June 2005. Questions 1096

[Mr. English.] the right way and the wrong way to allocate fund- comes to an end in 2006 because now and on a ing. A great deal of money was spent — I remem- previous occasion the Minister said that he called ber it being spent — on the building of Ballymun for it to continue, hoped the money allocated for flats 30 or 40 years ago and they are now being it would be increased and that it would continue knocked down. That money was badly spent in to operate? Is there a fear that funding for the that there was no social planning and so on. What RAPID programme will be cut and will that prog- is happening in Ballymun today is different ramme lose out if there is a change to the NDP? because there is a buy-in to that by the local com- munity. There are many strands to RAPID and it E´ amon O´ Cuı´v: As I explained to Members is not all about money, though money is incred- previously, the RAPID programme was about ibly important. However, the second thing that is front-loading expenditure under the national different this time is that we are looking for buy development plan, under the existing headings. in from communities. That is absolutely essential For example, under a housing heading, the idea so the money is well spent in terms of the social was that a RAPID area would get priority over dividend it gives to the communities in RAPID other areas when housing allocations would be areas. We could be obsessed totally in seeing it as made by the Department of the Environment, a money gain. It is not as simple as that. It is a Heritage and Local Government. For example, matter as well of spending the money in a way under a health heading, there would be a scoring the communities recognise will improve their up in the case of a RAPID area. That is what the lives. programme is about. If the Deputy were to check the press releases when the RAPID programme Mr. English: On the last point I totally agree commenced, he would note that is what the prog- with the Minister. We have to give value for ramme is about. money and there is a need for buy in from the communities and so on. We have had that in Mr. English: The Taoiseach said that the prog- many areas. ramme would be given front-loading expenditure of \2 billion. An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Time is running out. E´ amon O´ Cuı´v: If the Deputy has the infor- mation I am seeking, will he make it available to Mr. English: They have put forward plans and me? The figure of \2 billion that is mentioned by the funding is not coming. I certainly will find the everyone was also mentioned to me shortly after statement made by the Taoiseach in this regard. I become Minister. I asked people to gather all I know the Minister did not say it. When it is the press releases when the RAPID programme brought up on this side of the House it is as an was launched, but I did not find any reference to attempt to back the Minister’s fight to get more that figure in them. If someone can give me that money for RAPID. That is the only reason for quote I will be externally grateful because I raising it, not to embarrass anybody and certainly cannot find it. However, I suspect that the not the Minister. It is to prove the point. People Taoiseach said that there was a \2 billion pro- were given commitments and now we want that vision for social inclusion measures in the money brought forward so we can get results. My national development plan. fear is that people in disadvantaged areas are not getting all the help they need. They are getting it Mr. English: There was a \15 billion provision in certain places but more could be done. Other for it, of which \2 billion was specifically for Departments need to buck up and do more. We RAPID. all know that if much more money was being spent on the RAPID programme, we would hear E´ amon O´ Cuı´v: I cannot find any specific refer- about it, so \300,000 is the maximum. That is a ence to that figure in all the documentation I was long way short of the \2 billion. given. I asked my civil servants to check through Does the Minister know whether there is to be documents for a specific commitment of \2 increased funding for the RAPID areas next year, billion for RAPID areas. I accept it is stated even in his own Department? Are there commit- somewhere and I am not trying to allege that the ments in place? As regards the long-term future Deputy is making it up. If it is stated, what we of RAPID, is there something we do not know are talking about is the spend, in other words, about? That is a cause of some worry and it is expenditure on a health centre and so on. The something the Minister has referred to on a few figure I quoted of \300 million does not represent occasions. social inclusion spend, it is matched off against what was in the RAPID plans, which would not An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Minister may tally with the total spend in the areas. answer, briefly. We are serious about addressing needs in areas of deprivation. However, we need to focus not E´ amon O´ Cuı´v: I will try to answer the ques- only on the total spend in those areas, which is tions briefly. The first thing I find, meeting co- important, but also what the funding is spent on. ordinators, chairpersons of AITs and directors of I gave a classic example on an earlier occasion of community and enterprise services in the various 1097 Priority 29 June 2005. Questions 1098 local authorities, is that there is an enormous buy Caighdea´n na Gaeilge. in to RAPID now. If the Deputy had been at the 12. D’fhiafraigh Mr. O’Shea den Aire Gno´ thaı´ recent meeting we had here in Dublin, he Pobail, Tuaithe agus Gaeltachta cathain a bheidh would—— cainteanna aige leis an Roinn Oideachais agus Eolaı´ochta ar thuarasca´il na Comhairle Mr. English: I have been on the ground. Oideachais Gaeltachta agus Gaelscoileanna ar ´ ´ ´ chaighdean na Gaeilge sna scoileanna Eamon O Cuı´v: ——have found a very positive Gaeltachta; agus an nde´anfaidh se´ ra´iteas ina view. Since it is coming up to the summer break, leith. [22877/05] we have a DVD that was made by the RAPID groups all along the west coast. A copy is being E´ amon O´ Cuı´v: Mar is eol don Teachta, is ı´ an made available to every Member of the tAire Oideachais agus Eolaı´ochta ata´ freagrach Oireachtas so they may see what the RAPID as cu´ rsaı´ oideachais, sa Ghaeltacht agus lasmuigh communities are saying about themselves. I had di. Ar ndo´ igh, i gcomhthe´acs na freagrachta ata´ no hand, act or part in the preparation of this ormsa agus ar mo Roinn-se i nda´il leis an DVD, and neither had my Department. This was nGaeilge agus leis an nGaeltacht, bı´onn something they decided to do for themselves. cruinnithe ann ar bhonn rialta leis an Aire They are saying it is a positive story and I suggest Oideachais agus Eolaı´ochta agus le hoifigigh na we listen to them rather than what the media tell Roinne chun saincheisteanna a´bhartha a phle´. us they are telling us, which is very different. Leanfar leis na cruinnithe sin de re´ir mar is ga´. As regards the funds in my Department, as I Tig leis an Teachta glacadh leis go mbeidh said I have reservations—— a´bhar na tuarasca´la a luann se´ mar a´bhar ple´ sa chomthe´acs sin. Mr. English: I understand that. Mr. O’Shea: Nach gcuireann se´ isteach go mo´ r E´ amon O´ Cuı´v: ——about this and that is why ar an Aire go ndeireann an tuarasca´il gur bheag CLA´ R is different because it pre-dates that scoil Gaeltachta a bheidh ag mu´ ineadh trı´ mhea´n section. I had reservations about the measure- na Gaeilge taobh istigh de 20 bliain muna ment of front-loading because it was spending bhfaigheann na scoileanna Gaeltachta tacaı´ocht under the national development plan. I felt, very breise o´ n Sta´t? Ceapann tuismitheoirı´ go simply, that it would be good to have a small fund gcuireann an co´ ras oideachais isteach ar a n- that could be co-funded with other Departments iarrachtaı´ an Ghaeilge a thabhairt don che´ad to deal with all the myriad of small projects that ghlu´ in eile mar theanga bheo. Ta´ se´ seo a´ chur ar came through as RAPID plans that could not be ceal, agus nı´e´irı´onn leo aon dı´lseacht a chothu´ in the national development plan because they don Ghaoluinn sa che´ad ghlu´ in eile. Ta´ are too small, but are still needed. I thought this scoileanna ann ata´ tar e´is ge´illeadh agus ata´ ag was a great idea and certainly the RAPID areas mu´ ineadh anois trı´ mhea´n an Bhe´arla anois sna think it is fantastic because it is delivering on the Gaeltachtaı´. ground fast. It is very special to them and it is An aontaı´onn se´ leis an me´id a du´ irt Breanda´n interesting that people want to get into the Mac Cormaic, cathaoirleach ar an Chomhairle RAPID areas. um Oideachas Gaeltachta agus Gaelscolaı´ochta, The Deputy asked about the long term. The go raibh tuarasca´la ann roimhe seo, agus na´r reality is that we do not have a national develop- tha´rla tada ina ndiaidh? Muna dtarlaı´onn rud ment plan after 2006 for roads, so nobody can say anois tar e´is fhoilsiu´ na tuarasca´la seo, nach with certainty what the road programme will be mbeidh se´ tubaisteach ar fad don nGaoluinn? like after that. Similarly, I cannot say on a techni- cal level, since there is no NDP after 2006 and E´ amon O´ Cuı´v: Bheadh se´ fı´ordhona muna because this is linked to that plan, that RAPID ngnı´omho´ faı´ ar an tuarasca´il sin anois, agus as it is today will be exactly the same after that thiocfainn leis an Teachta go hiomla´n. Ta´ idir date. I do not doubt in my heart and soul that deasce´alta agus drochsce´alta ann. Aontaı´mgo RAPID will exist in some form similar to what it bhfuil du´ shla´n dochreidte ann. Ar an taobh eile is at present. I would not have put so much time den sce´al, chuala me´ daoine ag labhairt ar lı´on and effort into it if I was not 100% certain that it na scoileanna ata´ ag mu´ ineadh trı´ Bhe´arla, ach would be. Finally, we have extended the whole caithfear cuimhneamh, mar shampla, go RAPID thought process way beyond where we gclu´ daı´onn se´ sin scoileanna in a´iteanna ar no´ s started, for example with dormant accounts. The Bhaile an Chla´ir, Tı´r an Oilea´in agus mar sin de. figure I mentioned, 57%, was not in anything at Is e´ an Ghaeltacht mar ata´ sainorduithe tugtha di the beginning. It was not part of the programme. a bhı´ i gceist, agus tuigimid le fada an la´ nach The equal measure of \7 million was ringfenced. bhfuil an Ghaeilge in uachtar i measc an phobail It is fair to say that Departments and Govern- i gcuid de na ceantair sin. ment agencies are now beginning to realise that Ta´ bunsraith mhaith sa tuarasca´il seo ar fe´idir RAPID is there and will continue to be for the bheith ag obair uirthi. Ta´ moltaı´ soile´ire ann, agus long term and that it needs to be given priority is e´ an rud ata´ le de´anamh na´ an rud ce´anna a across a whole range of issues, even those which rinne muid le tuarasca´il Choimisiu´ nna were not part of the original idea. Gaeltachta — feidhmiu´ ar na moltaı´.Ta´ 1099 Priority 29 June 2005. Questions 1100

´ ´ [Eamon O Cuı´v.] iomla´n na Gaeilge ar Roinn amha´in. Ta´ sı´ ar comhchainteanna agus ple´ leanu´ nach idir mo chuile Roinn, a´fach. Roinn agus an Roinn Oideachais agus Eolaı´ochta Tugann se´ sin go dtı´ an dara pointe me´. Ceann le fe´achaint ce´n chaoi ar fe´idir linn de´ilea´il leis na de na fa´thanna gur tugadh an tAcht na du´ shla´in ata´ ann o´ thaobh chu´ rsaı´ oideachais sa dTeangacha Oifigiu´ la isteach na´ nach mbeifı´ ag nGaeltacht. Is fiu´ no´ ta´il, ag e´irı´ as tuarasca´il lorg cistı´ochta o´ mo Roinn-se le dualgais a Choimisiu´ n na Gaeltachta, go raibh mo Roinn i chomhlı´onadh do Ranna eile i leith na Gaeilge. dteagmha´il leis an Chomhairle um Oideachas D’fha´gfaı´ an chistı´ocht mo Roinn saor chun obair Gaeltachta agus Gaelscolaı´ochta ar son an teangan a dhe´anamh seachas bheith ag choiste comhairligh Gaeltachta chomh fada siar comhlı´onadh dualgas ar Ranna eile. Mar le Bealtaine 2003. Ba e´ ansin a tha´inig an shampla, bhı´ na seirbhı´sı´ sla´inte ag lorg go n- tuarasca´il seo chun cinn, mar bhi an t-eolas ag ı´ocfaimis as teileafo´ n cainte. Ce´nfa´th go n- teasta´il uainn, agus anois ta´ sı´a´ feidhmiu´ . Beidh ı´ocfaimis as teileafo´ n cainte? An ı´ocfaimis as se´ ta´bhachtach go bhfeidhmeofar ı´. Thiocfainn go teileafo´ n cainte i mBe´arla? Mar sin, in ionad hiomla´n leis an Teachta. Ma´ fhagfaimid ar bheith ag caitheamh airgead na Gaeilge—— leataobh e´, is tubaiste a bheas ann o´ thaobh mhu´ ineadh Gaeilge sa nGaeltacht. Ta´ an ceart ag Mr. O’Shea: Ta´ me´ ag iarraidh—— an Teachta. E´ amon O´ Cuı´v: ——is ag sa´bha´ilt airgead na Mr. O’Shea: Nach bhfuil an cheist i bhfad nı´os Gaeilge le haghaidh chur chun cinn na Gaeilge pra´innı´ na´ mar a tha´inig amach as an me´id a bhı´ ata´ muid leis an Acht na dTeangacha Oifigiu´ la. ra´ ag an Aire? Nach bhfuil an Ghaeltacht fe´in i Ta´imid ag cur dualgas ar na Ranna, as a gcistı´ocht mbaol? Nach bhfuil se´ i bhfad nı´os ta´bhachtaı´ fe´in, dualgais a chomhlı´onadh maidir le seirbhı´sı´ airgead a chaitheamh ar an scolaı´ocht sa a chur ar fa´il. nGaeltacht seachas ar an Acht Teanga no´ , fiu´ amha´in, ar an sta´das oifigiu´ il ata´ bainte amach ag Mr. O’Shea: Ta´ se´ seo i bhfad nı´os pra´innı´. an nGaeilge san Eoraip? De re´ir na tuarasca´la, bı´onn 10% de na daltaı´ a thagann amach as na E´ amon O´ Cuı´v: Exactly, agus sin an fa´th nach bunscoileanna agus na hiarbhunscoileanna sa dteastaı´onn uaim go mbeadh ar mo Roinn-se nGaeltacht ar bheaga´n Gaeilge. Fa´gann 25% de airgead na Gaeilge a chaitheamh ag de´anamh na daltaı´ an bhunscoil gan ach leibhe´al re´asu´ nta obair Rann eile. Sin an bunta´iste iontach a Gaeilge acu. Tagann 8% acu amach as na bhaineann leis an Acht. Is ag sa´bha´ilt airgead na hiarbhunscoileanna gan ach leibhe´al re´asu´ nta Gaeilge ata´ se´. Is ceist chairt chustaime´ara ata´ i Gaeilge acu. Nach n-aonto´ dh an tAire liom? Ma´s gceist, mar shampla, tuarasca´il bhliantu´ il a chur rud e´ go bhfuil an Ghaeltacht i mbaol — agus is ar fa´il san da´ theanga oifigiu´ il. Is ceist eile ı´ an e´ sin an rud ata´a´ ra´ agam anois — ma´ theipeann le´ann e´inne tuarasca´lacha bliantu´ la, ach ar an nGaeltacht, teipfidh ar gach rud. Na´r cheart d’fhe´adfaı´ an cheist sin a chur faoin gceann a don Rialtas tabhairt faoin sce´al seo go pra´inneach fhoilsı´tear i mBe´arla chomh maith leis an gceann agus rud e´igin substaintiu´ il a dhe´anamh? Ta´ an t- a fhoilsı´tear i nGaeilge. Sin ceist eile ar fad, a´fach. am ag druidim orainn anois. Ta´ an meath ann le Nı´ thuigim ce´nfa´th go dtagann se´ sin anı´os i fada, agus is ag dul in olc a bheas an sce´al. Ta´ an gco´ naı´. Cinnte, ta´ se´ thar a bheith pra´inneach, Rialtas ag de´ilea´il le rudaı´ ata´ teibı´ —ca´ipe´isı´ agus sin an fa´th go bhfuil mo Roinn go leanu´ nach nach le´ann e´inne a aistriu´ go Gaoluinn. Ar an ag ple´ leis an Roinn Oideachais agus Eolaı´ochta la´imh eile, a´fach, ta´ an Ghaeltacht i mbaol. Ta´ leis an rud seo a chur chun cinn. Ta´ go leor oibre Gaeilge na ndaltaı´ ata´ ag freastal ar na scoileanna de´anta anseo. ag dul i laige. Ta´ an sce´al ina phra´ca´s ar fad. Mr. O’Shea: Nı´ the´ann aon rud as ach caint. Nı´ do´ igh liom go bhfuil an tAire ag tabhairt ´ faoin cheist seo chomh prainneach agus ba cheart. E´ amon O´ Cuı´v: Tiocfaidh go leor as, agus Caithfidh se´ dul go dtı´ an Rialtas agus cur ina cheana fe´in ta´ go leor tagtha. luı´ ar an Taoiseach agus an Aire Oideachais agus Eolaı´ochta go bhfuil an fhadhb seo ann agus gur Mr. O’Shea: Cad a thiocfaidh? cheart tabhairt faoi blianta o´ shin. Ta´ an sce´al mar ata´ se´ anois, a´fach, agus caithfear tabhairt E´ amon O´ Cuı´v: I bhfad nı´os mo´ na´ mar a faoin sce´al sin go pra´inneach. tha´inig as an Roinn nuair a bhı´ pa´irtı´ an Teachta i gcumhacht. Mar shampla—— E´ amon O´ Cuı´v: Tho´ gfadh na ceisteanna agus na pointı´ ar fad a d’ardaigh an Teachta nı´ ba mho´ Mr. O’Shea: Nı´ raibh an tuarasca´il seo ar fa´il ama na´ ata´ agam. Ta´ freagracht fheidhmiu´ il ar an uair sin. mholtaı´ na tuarasca´la ar an Roinn Oideachais agus Eolaı´ochta. Is ro´ l tacu´ il e´ ata´ ag mo Roinn- E´ amon O´ Cuı´v: Nı´ raibh. Nı´lsı´ ar fa´il ach le se san obair seo ar fad. Ta´ an fhreagracht maidir cu´ pla seachtain. Tha´inig an tuarasca´il seo amach, leis an gceist seo go bunu´ sach ar an Roinn agus ta´imid cheana fe´in ag dı´riu´ , mar shampla, ar Oideachais agus Eolaı´ochta. Caithfidh me´e´ sin a cheist na gcu´ nto´ irı´ teangan sna scoileanna shoile´iriu´ arı´st agus arı´st eile. Seo ceann de na Gaeltachta, sce´im ata´ ag leathnu´ amach ar fud na fadhbanna. Ta´ tuairim thart go bhfuil freagracht tı´re anois. Ta´imid ag dı´riu´ , mar shampla, ar cheist 1101 Priority 29 June 2005. Questions 1102 na gcuairteoirı´ baile agus mar sin de. Ta´ nı´os mo´ develop the facility and the problems it has acmhainnı´a´ gcur ar sce´imeanna o´ tha´inig mise experienced, it might be preferable for them to isteach sa Roinn na´ mar a cuireadh le 50 bliain be rehoused on the mainland. What are the Mini- roimhe. Bhı´ tre´imhse comhghuallı´ochta i gceist ster’s views on islanders suffering from illness freisin. moving to the mainland? While I appreciate that housing people with disabilities is the responsi- Offshore Islands. bility of other Departments, will the Minister con- sider facilitating people with cancer who may 13. Dr. Cowley asked the Minister for Com- need to move to the mainland for a period or munity, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs if he will older people who wish to live close to medical consider introducing a scheme whereby island services which are unavailable on the island? residents who are mentally or physically impaired are offered a relocation or rehousing option on E´ amon O´ Cuıv: Unfortunately, as the Deputy the mainland to enable them to avail of necessary ´ will be aware, only a small number of people live services; and if he will make a statement on the on Inishbiggle, an island which has experienced a matter. [22706/05] significant population decline in recent years. I E´ amon O´ Cuı´v: I remind the Deputy that doubt if anybody on the island is in any doubt responsibility for housing persons with mental or as to the Department’s position on the cable car physical disability rests with my colleagues, the project, given that I visited the island during my Ministers for Health and Children and the Envir- most recent visit to County Mayo and spent more onment, Heritage and Local Government. than an hour explaining the precise position and However, with regard to the context in which the the parameters within which I was working. I also Deputy has tabled the question, he should note promised islanders that I would inform them if that the development of new piers in recent years the Department had approved the project once both on the island to which he refers and the my discussions with Ireland West Tourism and adjacent mainland has satisfied a key remit of my others had concluded. Department to provide safe access to the island The tragedy is that the cable car project could in question. In addition, his reference to the aban- have proceeded many years ago had it not been donment of a cable car project to the island — for various local difficulties and objections lodged incidentally, the only island to which such a at various stages. While people are entitled to service is under consideration — is inaccurate. object, the Department had to wait until all the The facts are that a grant of \1.84 million was problems were overcome before issuing compul- approved by me to the relevant local authority sory purchase orders and so forth. The scenario I for the provision of a cable car and associated faced in spring was that, on the one hand, I had services to the island. Furthermore, the local a report on my desk indicating that the cable car authority was recently authorised by me to pur- facility could not be justified purely as an island chase lands which had been the subject of com- project while, on the other, I was facing a dead- pulsory purchase order processes so that all line as regards the decision to purchase the land realistic options for providing the cable car required for the project. I took the decision that service could be usefully explored. the deadline was too close and I had not done In addition, my Department has engaged in enough homework in terms of examining the pro- discussions with Ireland West Tourism and the ject’s tourism potential to defray some of the local authority with a view to ascertaining the costs of constructing a cable car facility. As a tourism potential of the project and is actively result, I instructed my officials to inform Mayo examining the feasibility of securing partners County Council that it should proceed with the from the private sector to build and operate the purchase of the land in question to ensure the facility. project would remain intact. The Department will have to make a decision Dr. Cowley: I welcome the Minister’s reply on the issue. I have always believed, conditional because many people on the island in question on a wide range of factors falling into place, that believe the cable car project is dead. I acknowl- the project has island potential as well as signifi- edge his comments in this regard and welcome cant tourism potential, particularly in light of the any progress on the project. The late Po´ lO´ development of Ballycroy. This development Foighil — God be good to him — was very pro- potential will only be realised, however, if the active on this issue and the Minister has visited cable car operator drives it. the island on many occasions. I also welcome The question of old people living on the island improvements in the piers and in access to the who need to move to the mainland is a catch-22, island, without which islanders would be although it was not meant as such, in that if I am stranded. seen to be proactively encouraging or assisting People with illnesses experience considerable people to leave the island, others on the island difficulty travelling to and from the island and will argue that my intention is to kill the island. have been looking forward to having a cable car However, if I do not get proactively involved in facility, which should have been developed a long assisting those who need to leave the island, I will time ago. Constituents of mine have suggested be accused of not looking after people’s needs. If that in light of the length of time required to someone is seriously ill, the local authorities 1103 Priority 29 June 2005. Questions 1104

´ ´ [Eamon O Cuı´v.] Inishturk and I can vouch for the fact that while should look favourably on an application from the service is welcome, it is not dedicated and its that person and I would make a strong case that availability and the equipment it carries depends if there were good medical or social reasons for a on the other jobs it must do. The helicopter emer- person to leave the island, the fact that he or she gency medical service would be a flying intensive has a house on the island should not be a reason care unit that would bring definitive medical for not giving that person a house on the main- treatment to people on the islands. land. I would articulate that view on behalf of someone on an island who needed mainland resi- E´ amon O´ Cuı´v: The Deputy is trying to lead dence because of illness if I was asked to. I do me into a wider issue that would be just as perti- not want someone saying that because a person nent on the mainland as on the islands. has a perfectly good house, he or she can stay there. If illness is involved, and if it would be Dr. Cowley: It is particularly important for better for his or her health to stay on the main- the islands. land, it would be right and humane and I would make that point to any local authority. My experi- E´ amon O´ Cuı´v: Lift time into a hospital from ence, however, is that local authorities are sym- the islands because of the provision of helipads pathetic. They are trying to keep the same and the willingness of rescue services to provide balance as us — not to depopulate the island in a the service would be considerably quicker than in driven fashion and to take a social view of indi- large parts of the mainland in my constituency. vidual circumstances. Dr. Cowley: That is true. Dr. Cowley: I appreciate that the Minister was ´ ´ on the island and that he is sincere but people Eamon O Cuı´v: I am not a doctor, I cannot have been waiting for so long that they do not argue about one service but the helicopters and believe what they are told. helipads are available and there is quick lift time Dedicated helicopter emergency medical from the islands. services would make people feel much more secure on the islands. The Minister knows of the National Drugs Strategy. tragedies that have occurred on the 14. Mr. English asked the Minister for Com- 3 o’clock islands. There is currently a delay in munity, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs the main getting the definitive medical treat- aspects of the national drugs strategy for which ment the helicopter emergency services would considerable progress remains to be achieved; the bring to the islands. Would the Minister support way in which he intends to ensure that all of the this? It does not fall within the remit of his 100 recommendations in the strategy and those Department but he might ask his colleagues to amended through the mid-term review of the support helicopter emergency medical services. strategy are implemented in full by the strategy’s They would be a great boon to older people on end; and if he will make a statement on the the islands and a reason for people to stay there. matter. [23014/05] E´ amon O´ Cuı´v: Inishbiggle has one of the best Minister of State at the Department of Com- helipads in the country and my Department put munity, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs (Mr. N. it in. I recognise that helicopter evacuation in Ahern): The Cabinet Committee on Social terms of illness or other emergencies is vital. Inclusion agreed the report of the steering group Doctors based on the islands full-time always tell on the mid-term review of the national drugs me they get an excellent service from both the strategy in April and it was published earlier this search and rescue helicopter and the Air Corps. month. The report is the culmination of the mid- term review, a comprehensive review process Dr. Cowley: When they are available to give launched last year and included extensive public the service. consultations. A steering group, chaired by my Department, E´ amon O´ Cuı´v: I have kept in touch about this. made up of the relevant Departments and agen- There is more than one doctor on the Arann cies, as well as the community and voluntary sec- Islands and I have not received any complaints tors oversaw the review. External consultants also about availability, particularly from the Arann assisted the steering group. The review sought to Islands, which have the largest population and assess the impact and direction of the strategy at the most calls out. Other doctors on the west this mid-point stage and, in this regard, the group coast have said the same. concentrated on identifying adjustments to the existing strategy and highlighting priorities for Dr. Cowley: It is not just a question of avail- the second phase up to 2008. ability but having the right equipment to do the The steering group found that the current aims job. People have been become hypothermic while and objectives of the drugs strategy are funda- waiting for intensive care medical treatment that mentally sound. There are encouraging signs of helicopter emergency medical services would progress since 2001 when the strategy was first have but the Air Corps and search and rescue launched which suggest that our current approach units do not have. I worked on Clare Island and to tackling the drug problem is proving effective. 1105 Priority 29 June 2005. Questions 1106

At the same time, however, the review highlights other problems are developing around us, which the need to re-focus priorities and accelerate the we ignore. Effort must be put into work in the roll-out and implementation of various key regions. actions in the remaining period of the strategy up How many of the regional drugs task forces to 2008. In this context, new actions and amend- have submitted plans? Have those plans been ments have been identified. These changes should reviewed? What plans exist for funding them? help strengthen the strategy and enable it to Will the Department play an active role in push- better deliver its aims. ing for results? There has been a lack of urgency Ten of the strategy’s existing actions are being in dealing with the regional drugs task forces in replaced, seven of the existing actions are being recent years. It is too easy to say they have not amended and there are eight new actions that aim reported or submitted their plans. The Depart- to address issues such as family support and ment must drive the regional task forces to get rehabilitation. The review found that 49 of the results and make changes. The Department original 100 actions outlined in the strategy are cannot do everything but it must give them a bit completed or of an on-going nature, progress was of a push and display a sense of urgency. on-going on a further 45 and there were six The Minister of State is not responsible for all actions on which considerable progress has to be the problems but he is the man in charge of driv- made. ing these projects. How proactive is the Depart- Of the six, actions 61 and 72, relating to half- ment of Health and Children? According to the way houses and drugs training for professionals, Department’s figures, 59 initiatives are still are of a long-term nature and require consider- awaiting implementation. What role will the ably more work to bring them about and this is Department of Health and Children play? Is it continuing. Other actions are the subject of spec- considering a withdrawal of support from the ific recommendations in the mid-term review, drugs task forces, leaving them to the Depart- such as the eleventh action on the community ment of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht policing fora, action 63 on needle exchange and Affairs? action 77 on meeting the Oireachtas committee. The Department of Health and Children failed On action 23, the Irish Prison Service advises to provide immediate access for drug abusers to that it would not be useful to undertake a review professional assessment and counselling by health at this time. It would be more beneficial to intro- board services in all areas. There are major wait- duce the new prisons drugs policy and to under- ing lists. That is the fault of the Department of take the review when the new policy has been in Health and Children and the Health Service place for a reasonable period to allow for mean- Executive which have failed to develop enough ingful evaluation. It is proposed that the review drop-in centres and half-way houses for which will be initiated in 2007. there is a major demand. In the judicial area, the On monitoring the strategy, the mid-term rolling out the community policing fora is badly review has been a very useful exercise, allowing needed as they do work. Communities must for a stock-take of progress at this mid-point in become involved in solving their problems and time. The strategy will continue to be monitored young people must be involved in projects in their through the interdepartmental group on drugs, areas, getting to know the gardaı´ through the which I chair and through the Cabinet Committee community policing fora. on Social Inclusion. The IDG meets regularly to Not every Garda station has a specific drug unit assess progress by Departments and agencies in or squad. A station may have access to one or be achieving the targets set for them and any able to request a drugs unit from headquarters. obstacle to the implementation of any of the This is not good enough as a rapid reaction is actions are brought to light and discussed at these needed. The Garda will put more effort into tack- meetings. Reports on the implementation of the ling other criminal activity which is easier because strategy are presented to the Cabinet Committee drugs offences are more long term. on Social Inclusion on a regular basis. My Department, in conjunction with the rel- Mr. N. Ahern: Progress has been considerable. evant Departments and agencies, will draw up a Seven of the ten regional plans have been submit- revised framework for the implementation of the ted. The first tranche of resources of these will be recommendations in the mid-term review, includ- announced in the next ten to 14 days. The ing timescales. This will be presented to the IDG Department is driving it through the national in the coming months. drugs strategy team. The problem has spread to other Leinster towns as evidenced with the recent Mr. English: The mid-term review showed deaths, which are sad. That is what the regional some progress but I fear we might become com- task force plans will attempt to address. We have placent. There are still many problems because not always got co-operation from some towns, progress is not balanced, it has been made in the which I do not wish to name. city but the problems are growing worse in the regions, with a report yesterday showing that Mr. English: I understand that. deaths had risen ten fold. The new framework should concentrate on all areas and not just the Mr. N. Ahern: However, some of these towns city. There is no point fixing one problem while have adopted the attitude that the problem does 1107 Priority 29 June 2005. Questions 1108

[Mr. N. Ahern.] agus ta´ sı´ ar fa´il anois mar eiseamla´rdo not exist or if it is ignored it will go away. The chomhlachtaı´ poiblı´ eile. only way to tackle a problem is by providing D’fhogair me´ ar an la´ ce´anna ainmneacha an services. Treatment is one of the main pillars of che´ad 25 chomhlacht poiblı´ a bhfuil iarrtha i the strategy, which is focussed through the scrı´bhinn agam orthu dre´acht-sce´im a ullmhu´ ,i Department of Health and Children. gcomhre´ir leis na dTreoirlı´nte sin. I measc na There were indications that some new people gcomhlachtaı´ sin ta´ Ranna Rialtais, u´ dara´is a´iti- in the Health Service Executive were trying to u´ la, boird sla´inte agus institiu´ idı´ 3u´ leibhe´al. Ta´ back off on this as the drugs strategy is not the na dreacht-sce´imeamma sin a´ scru´ du´ ag oifigigh only problem the executive has. Some new mo Roinne le tamall anuas agus ta´a´thas orm a brooms would rather it went away. However, I chur in iu´ l go bhfuil cuid mhaith de na dre´acht- believe we have successfully handled this issue. sce´imeanna sin daingnithe agam anois. Ta´im do´ chasach go mbeidh na sce´imeanna don 25 Acht na dTeangacha Oifigiu´ la. comhlacht poiblı´ ar fad daingnithe agam roimh dheireadh an tsamhraidh. 15. D’fhiafraigh Mr. O’Shea den Aire Gno´ thaı´ Ta´ roghnu´ an che´ad gru´ pa eile de chomhlachtaı´ Pobail, Tuaithe agus Gaeltachta ce´n dul chun poiblı´, a mbeidh me´ ag iarraidh orthu dre´acht- cinn ata´ de´anta aige o´ thaobh chur i bhfeidhm sce´im a ullmhu´ , idir la´mha agam agus ta´ i gceist Acht na dTeangacha Oifigiu´ la; agus an nde´an- agam fo´ gra faoi sin a dhe´anamh go han-luath. faidh se´ ra´iteas ina thaobh. [22578/05] Ta´ mo Roinnse ag obair, i gcomhar le hOifig E´ amon O´ Cuı´v: Mar a du´ irt me´ go minic an Dre´achto´ ra Parlaiminte, ar dhre´acht de na ria- cheana, ta´im sa´sta go bhfuil dul chun cinn suntas- lacha´in a dhe´anfar faoi alt 9(1) den Acht. Ce´ nach ach a´ dhe´anamh ag mo Roinn maidir le cur i feidir liom da´ta cinnte a lua, ta´im do´ chasach go bhfeidhm fhora´lacha an Achta ar bhonn che´imi- mbeidh ar mo chumas na Rialacha´in sin a dhe´an- u´ il. Ta´im sa´sta freisin go n-e´ireoidh leis na amh go luath. comhlachtaı´ poiblı´ na dualgais reachtu´ la a thit- fidh orthu go ce´imiu´ il faoin Acht a chomhlı´onadh Mr. O’Shea: Gabhaim buı´ochas leis an Aire as agus go deimhin go nglacfaidh said leis an du´ sh- ucht an fhreagra sin. Go dtı´ seo, a´fach, nı´l ach 25 la´n le meon dearfach agus sa spiorad ceart. Ar comhlacht poiblı´ agus Roinn i gceist. Ce´ard ata´ le ndo´ igh, beidh gach sce´im dre´achtaithe ag na ra´ aige faoin bhfigiu´ r a luaigh a chomhghleacaı´, comhlachtaı´ poiblı´ i gcomhthe´acs agus ar bhonn an tAire So´ isialta agus Gno´ thaı´ Teaghlaigh, an na n-acmhainn, idir airgead agus foireann, ata´ acu Teachta Brennan, go gcosno´ dh se´ \500,000 fora´l- no´ a bheidh ar fa´il do´ ibh le linn thre´imhse na sce´- acha an Achta a chur i bhfeidhm sa Roinn sin? ime. Nı´ fe´idir gach rud a bhaint amach thar oı´che Cad ata´ le ra´ aige faoin urlabhraı´ de chuid Aer agus, mar a du´ irt me´o´ n dtu´ s, is ı´ an aidhm ata´ Lingus a du´ irt nach bhfuil siad sa´sta leis an Acht, agam na´ go mbeidh feabhsu´ cha´in a´ mbaint o´ s rud e´ go mbeidh siad in iomaı´ocht le amach, thar thre´imhse roinnt sce´imeanna b’fhe´i- comhlachtaı´ prı´obha´ideacha nach mbeidh fora´la- dir, ar leibhe´al agus ar chaighdea´n na seirbhı´sı´ cha an Achta ag baint leo? Ce´ard faoin measta- poiblı´ a bhı´onn a´ gcur ar fa´il trı´ Ghaeilge, de cha´n sealadach a cuireadh isteach anuraidh go re´ir e´ilimh. gcosno´ dh se´ \8 milliu´ n do na comhairlı´ contae An me´id sin ra´ite, is gno´ do na comhlachtaı´ agus cathrach fora´lacha an Achta a chur i poiblı´ fe´in, ar ndo´ igh, a chinntiu´ go gcomhlı´onfar bhfeidhm. na dualgais a thitfidh orthu faoin Acht seo sa Ta´ a fhios ag an Aire go bhfuil me´a´ cha´ineadh chaoi che´anna agus a chomhlı´ontar dualgais faoi fe´in agus ag ca´ineadh na Roinne le fada o´ s rud e´ aon reachtaı´ocht eile. nach ndearnadh aon mheastacha´n ceart ar na Seo a leanas roinnt de na prı´omh-che´imeanna costais fora´lacha an Achta a chur i bhfeidhm go ata´ to´ gtha go da´ta maidir le cur i bhfeidhm an hiomla´n. De´arfaidh me´ an rud seo leis, a´fach. Achta. Rinne me´ ordu´ tosach feidhme ar 19 Ean- Bhı´omar ag caint inniu mar gheall ar an nGael- a´ir 2004 a thugann feidhm don chuid is mo´ d’fhor- tacht i mbaol. Is e´ an rud ata´ ag goilliu´ int orm na´ a´lacha an Achta le he´ifeacht o´ nla´ sin agus o´ 1 go bhfuil seans ann go mbeidh ca´ipe´isı´ nach le´if- Bealtaine 2004 i gca´s alt 10. idh e´inne a´ n-aistriu´ go Gaoluinn. Deir daoine go Bunaı´odh ag tu´ s na bliana 2004, Oifig Choimis- nde´anfar an rud ce´anna leis an mBe´arla — go ine´ir na dTeangacha Oifigiu´ la agus ar an 23 mbı´onn ca´ipe´isı´ Be´arla ann nach le´ann e´inne agus Feabhra 2004, cheap Uachtara´nnahE´ ireann an nach aon stro´ e´ an rud ce´anna a dhe´anamh o´ tUasal Sea´nO´ Cuirrea´in mar che´ad Choimisine´ir thaobh na Gaeilge de. Nı´ aon fhreagra e´ sin. Is Teanga. Ta´ foireann agus sola´thar airgid cuı´ cur- ceart na ca´ipe´isı´ Be´arla nach le´itear a chur ar ceal tha ar fa´il ag mo Roinnse leis an oifig a bhunu´ freisin. Sin an rud is ta´bhachtaı´. agus a riaradh. Ta´ an oifig lonnaithe sa Spide´al i I ndeireadh na da´la, a´fach, ta´ an chuma ar an nGaeltacht na Gaillimhe. sce´al go gcosno´ idh se´ cuid mhaith airgid fora´lacha Foilsı´odh ar 30 Mea´nFo´ mhair 2004 an leagan an Achta a chur i bhfeidhm go hiomla´n do thart daingnithe de na Treoirlı´nte a ullmhaı´odh faoi alt ar 642 comhlacht poiblı´ agus Roinn. Ce´ard faoi 12 den Acht chun cabhru´ le comhlachtaı´ poiblı´ Aer Lingus, Bus E´ ireann agus Bus A´ tha Cliath, dre´acht-sce´im a ullmhu´ faoi alt 11 den Acht. Ta´ a´fach? Ta´ siadsan in iomaı´ocht le comhlachtaı´ sce´im mo Roinne fe´in faoin Acht don tre´imhse prı´obha´ideacha agus nı´ bheidh na fora´lacha seo 2004-07 foilsithe freisin o´ 30 Mea´nFo´ mhair 2004 ag baint leo sin. Sin rud ar cheart don Aire dı´riu´ 1109 Priority 29 June 2005. Questions 1110 air freisin. Nach bhfuil se´ in am anois meastacha´n Cuirim mar seo e´.Ta´ an-chaint ar mhı´chumas. a dhe´anamh ar ce´ mhe´ad a chosno´ idh se´ go dı´re- Beidh costas ar shola´thar a chur ar fa´il do dhrea- ach don Sta´t agus do na comhlachtaı´ poiblı´ an manna mı´chumais. Titfidh se´ sin amha´in ar an tAcht seo a chur i bhfeidhm? Nı´lmo´ ra´n airgid ag dream nach raibh cothrom ceart a´ dhe´anamh acu aon Roinn, agus go mo´ rmho´ ragnahu´ dara´is a´iti- do dhaoine le mı´chumais go dtı´ seo. Nı´ thitfidh u´ la — airgead a bheadh a´ chaitheamh ar rudaı´ aon chostas ar an dream a bhı´ ag cur seirbhı´s nach bhfuil aon fhiu´ ntas ag baint leo i nda´irı´re. cheart ar fa´il. Ma´ ta´ costais ar dhreamanna a´iri- Beidh neart ca´ipe´isı´ ann agus an-easpa leitheoirı´. the, is mar go raibh easpa seirbhı´se agus mar gur theip go hiomla´n is go huile ar na treoirlı´nte E´ amon O´ Cuı´v: Maidir le hAer Lingus, mar is deonacha a chuir an Teachta Michael D. Higgins eol don Teachta, ta´ sola´thar san Acht le haghaidh ar aghaidh nuair a bhı´ se´ ina Aire agus e´ fe´in ag an ruda a d’ardaigh se´.Ma´ ta´ dualgas ar maı´omh gur re´itigh se´ sin fadhbanna seirbhı´se trı´ chomhlacht Sta´it ata´ in iomaı´ocht le comhlachtaı´ Ghaeilge. Is le´ir gur theip air. Ma´ ta´ costas anois prı´obha´ideacha, ta´ sola´thar faoin Acht leis an air, is mar gur theip ar na treoirlı´nte deonacha a bpa´irc a choinnea´il cothrom. Chonaic me´ tagairt raibh an oiread sin gaisce a´ dhe´anamh astu. sa bpa´ipe´ar—— Mr. O’Shea: Ta´ me´ ag e´isteacht leis an Aire, Mr. O’Shea: An nde´anfaidh an tAire e´ sin? ach i ndeireadh na da´la, ta´ ceist bhunu´ sach ann. Cad go dı´reach a chosno´ idh cur i bhfeidhm an E´ amon O´ Cuı´v: Ma´ bhı´onn ga´ leis, cinnte. Nı´l Achta ina iomla´n? Ce´ mhe´ad a chosno´ idh se´ don a fhios agam ce´nfa´th go raibh Aer Lingus ag Sta´tchiste agus don phobal? Ba chomhair measta- tagairt do´ sin. Bhı´ se´ ag caint ar fho´ graı´ocht, agus cha´n ceart — chomh ceart agus is fe´idir — a nı´l aon rialacha´nde´anta agam faoi fho´ graı´ocht, dhe´anamh. Na´r cheart fe´achaint ar ce´nu´ sa´id ar agus nı´l aon mhaith do dhaoine bheith ag caint ar fe´idir a bhaint as an airgead ar son na Gaeilge? rud nach bhfuil ann. Ta´ an chuma ar an sce´al go bhfuil an Ghaeltacht Maidir leis an rud a du´ irt an Teachta faoin i mbaol, agus sin an phrı´obhfhadhb ata´ ag an Roinn Gno´ thaı´ So´ isialacha agus Teaghlaigh, ta´ Rialtas seo. Nil me sa´sta ar chor ar bith go bhfuil \500,000 curtha ar leataobh aici sna Meastacha´in an tAire seo sa´sta tabhairt faoin fhadhb sin, an le haghaidh fheidhmiu´ an Achta. Deir se´ sin dha´ ceann is pra´innı´ da´ bhfuil ann. B’fhearr leis rud. Ar an gce´ad dul sı´os, deir se´ go soile´ir nach bheith ag de´ilea´il le rudaı´ ata´ teibı´ agus a bhaine- raibh seirbhı´s cheart trı´ Ghaeilge a´ cur ar fa´il ag ann le cu´ rsaı´ acadu´ la, b’fhe´idir. an Roinn Gno´ thaı´ So´ isialacha agus Teaghlaigh go ´ dtı´ seo. E´ amon O Cuı´v: Ta´ an tAcht Teanga thar a Molaim´ ı as ucht a gcearta a thabhairt do lucht bheith ta´bhachtach do phobal na Gaeltachta. Den na Gaeilge. Ma´ chosnaı´onn se´ an sciar sin den che´ad uair ariamh, beidh siad in ann—— bhuise´ad, bı´odh se´ mar ata´.Ta´ su´ il agam nach bhfuil me´ mı´cheart sa bhfigiu´ r. Ta´ a fhios agam Mr. O’Shea: Ar chuir an tAire an cheist orthu? go bhfuil se´ luaite anseo a´it e´igin, ach nı´lme´ in ´ ´ ann mo la´mh a leagan air. Ma´s buan mo chu- Eamon O Cuı´v: Ta´ me´ i mo cho´ naı´ sa imhne, ta´ an Teachta ag caint ar an se´u´ cuid de nGaeltacht. 1% de bhuise´ad riaracha´in na Roinne Gno´ thaı´ Mr. O’Shea: Ar chuir se´ an cheist orthu? So´ isialacha agus Teaghlaigh. Ta´ se´ sin nı´os lu´ na´ 0.2% den bhuise´ad riaracha´in. Seo an dearcadh E´ amon O´ Cuı´v: Ta´ mise i mo cho´ naı´ sa ata´ agam air. Ma´ ta´ costais ag baint leis na dual- nGaeltacht. gais dlı´thiu´ la a chomhlı´onadh, sa´bha´lfaidh se´ sin ´ ´ ´ ´ ´ ´ ´ ´ 0.2% ait eigin eile. Nılsesubstaintiuil. Nılseab- Mr. O’Shea: Ta´ a fhios agam, ach ar chuir se´ hartha i gcomhthe´acs bhuise´id iomla´in. an cheist orthu? Nı´l costas da´ laghad ar na heagraı´ochtaı´ Sta´it a bhı´ ag cur a gcearta ar fa´il do lucht na Gaeilge. E´ amon O´ Cuı´v: Ce´ air? Mar shampla, nı´l aon chostas ar fiu´ caint air do mo Roinn fe´in. Bhı´ muid ag de´anamdh gach rud Mr. O’Shea: Ar mhuintir na Gaeltachta. An da´ bhfuil sa bplean. Nı´lse´ ag cur aon chostais bhfuil an tAcht seo ag teasta´il uathu? Nı´or chuir breise orainn. Nı´l aon chostas, mar shampla, ar se´ an cheist sin orthu. U´ dara´s na Gaeltachta cloı´ leis an Acht Teanga, mar bhı´ se´ ag feidhmiu´ i gceart. Is beag costas ata´ E´ amon O´ Cuı´v: Cuirim mar seo e´.Nah- ar Oifig an Ombudsman mar bhı´ sı´ ag de´anamh urlabhraithe—— na rudaı´ ata´ riachtanach de re´ir an Achta. Mar sin, ma´ ta´ comhlachtaı´a´irithe a bhfuil costais Mr. O’Shea: An measann an tAire go bhfuil an orthu, sin le ra´ nach bhfuil seirbhı´sı´a´ gcur ar fa´il freagra aige? Ta´ mise a´ ra´ go gcuirfeadh se´ ion- acu. Ta´ dreamanna eile nach bhfuil aon chostas adh ar an Aire da´ gcuirfeadh se´ an cheist ar mhu- ag baint leo mar bhı´ an tseirbhı´s agus ceart a´ intir na Gaeltachta. dtabhairt don dream a u´ sa´ideann Gaeilge sa tı´r seo. Is fadhb do chuile chomhlacht e´ taobh istigh E´ amon O´ Cuı´v: Nı´l a fhios agam ce´n chaoi a da´ chuid acmhainnı´ tosu´ a fheidhmiu´ taobh istigh gcuirfı´ an cheist sin seachas i reifreann, ach na den dlı´. daoine—— 1111 Other 29 June 2005. Questions 1112

Mr. O’Shea: Is e´ an Teachta an tAire. Faigh aon bhealach lena fha´il amach ach reifreann a an tslı´. chur ar bun, agus nı´l aon sola´thar do reifreann mar sin i gca´s mar seo. Nı´ fhaca me´ aon Aire E´ amon O´ Cuı´v: Bı´onn na hurlabhraithe pobail ariamh a chuir reifreann ar bun maidir le ceist sa nGaeltacht a´ ra´ go bhfuil se´ thar a bheith ta´b- polasaı´ den chinea´l seo. O´ n eolas ata´ agam—— hachtach go mbeadh seirbhı´sı´ ar fa´il trı´ mhea´nna Gaeilge. An bhfuil an Teachta a´ ra´ liom go bhfuil Mr. O’Shea: Nı´l a fhios ag an Aire. Nı´or fhreag- se´ ceart no´ mı´cheart gur fe´idir le duine o´ n nGael- air se´ an cheist. tacht ar mhaith leis ca´in bho´ thair a chur ar a charr dul isteach in oifig phoiblı´ agus seirbhı´s a fha´il o´ n E´ amon O´ Cuı´v: Ca´ bhfios an dteastaı´onn aon duine ata´ taobh thiar den gcu´ ntar i nGaeilge no´ reachtaı´ocht uainne? Bheadh reifreann i mBe´arla? seafo´ ideach. Mr. O’Shea: Iarr orthu. Other Questions. E´ amon O´ Cuı´v: An bhfuil an ceart sin acu? ———— Mr. O’Shea: Iarr orthu an bhfuil se´ ag teasta´il uathu. National Drugs Strategy. 16. Mr. Durkan asked the Minister for Com- An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Caithfimid dul ar munity, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs the extent to aghaidh anois. which he will offer increased financial support to communities throughout the country attempting ´ ´ Eamon O Cuı´v: Ta´ an Teachta a´ ra´ liom na´r the combat the drugs problem; and if he will cheart go mbeadh se´ de cheart—— make a statement on the matter. [22755/05] Mr. O’Shea: Nı´ aontaı´m leis an Aire. 301. Mr. Durkan asked the Minister for Com- munity, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs the extent to E´ amon O´ Cuı´v: Mar dhuine Gaeltachta which he can offer financial assistance to com- amha´in, ta´ mise in ann ra´ leis an Teachta go munity groups involved in combating the drugs bhfuil se´ ag teasta´il uaimse. problem throughout greater Dublin; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [23205/05] Mr. O’Shea: Duine amha´in. Mr. N. Ahern: I propose to take Questions E´ amon O´ Cuı´v: An bhfuil an ceart sin agam Nos. 16 and 301 together. \ mar shaora´nach an Sta´it seo seirbhı´s a fha´il mar My Department was allocated 31.5 million to dhuine ata´ ina cho´ naı´ sa nGaeltacht trı´ mhea´nna fund drugs initiatives in 2005, which represents an Gaeilge ma´ theastaı´onn se´ uaim ca´in a chur ar 18% increase on last year’s budget. Through the mo charr agus dul isteach san oifig cha´nach i funding available to me, the valuable work being nGaillimh agus de´ilea´il leis an gcigire ca´nach? An done by local drugs task forces, LDTFs, and the bhfuil an ceart no´ nach bhfuil an ceart agam an young peoples facilities and services fund, gno´ sin a dhe´anamh i nGaeilge? Sin an cheist a YPFSF, will continue to be supported and gcaithfidh Pa´irtı´ an Lucht Oibre a fhreagairt. Gla- developed. caim leis go bhfuil an Teachta a´ ra´ nach bhfuil an In addition, the following new initiatives will ceart sin agam. Ta´ me´ an-bhuı´och den fhreagra be rolled out. A new fund to tackle emerging sin. Ta´ siad oscailte faoi dheireadh. Creidimse, needs in the LDTF areas will be provided. I hope agus creidim go gcreideann formho´ r an phobail, to make some announcements in this regard go mba cheart go mbeadh ceart ag duine o´ n nGa- shortly. The Department will also continue to eltacht bunseirbhı´sı´ — agus ta´imid ag caint ar lı´on support a number of pilot projects which were an-teoranta seirbhı´sı´ — a fha´il trı´ mhea´n na Gae- announced last Christmas specifically to tackle ilge o´ n Sta´tcho´ ras. Is le´ir nach gcreideann an cocaine. Funding will also be allocated to Teachta e´ sin. Ta´ an-a´thas orm anois go bhfuil a implement the action plans from the regional fhios agam ca´ seasann Pa´irtı´ an Lucht Oibre ar drugs task forces. In this context, the Deputy an gceist seo, agus ta´ me´—— should note that I will be make initial allocations to six of the regions in the next few weeks. Seven Mr. O’Shea: Ceapann an tAire e´ sin. Nı´or chuir plans have been received and this allocation will se´ an cheist. Na´ bı´odh se´a´ ra´ go bhfuil mise—— consist of a first tranche of the funding. A third round of capital funding under the young peoples An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Ceist Uimh. 16 facilities and services fund in local drugs task don Aire Sta´it. force areas will also be announced shortly. A further round of funding through the premises E´ amon O´ Cuı´v: Mar a deirim, seachas reifre- initiative for community-based drugs projects in ann, nı´l aon bhealach ann seachas an bealach a local drugs task force areas will also be made this chuir me´ na ceisteanna. O´ na ceisteanna a chuir year. Moreover, additional administrative sup- mise ar phobal na Gaeltachta, ta´ an buncheart sin ports for some local drugs task forces will be uathu. Ma´ chreideann an Teachta a mhalairt, nı´l rolled out. 1113 Other 29 June 2005. Questions 1114

The Deputy should also note that in addition Mr. N. Ahern: I did not catch the Deputy’s first to the initiatives noted earlier, over recent years point. On the multi-annual funding, all the fund- a large number of projects which were initially ing is rolled out in accordance with plans submit- developed through the local drugs task forces and ted and approved. That part is all right. When the the young peoples facilities and services fund projects are in place for a certain period of time, have been taken into the mainstream by various they are evaluated. The theory is that they are Departments and agencies. It is estimated that in mainstreamed back into the Departments of Edu- monetary terms, these make up a further \19 mil- cation and Science, Health and Children and so lion to \20 million so that in total, a sum of more on, and the funding becomes part of the establish- than \50 million has been invested in projects ment thereafter. They must be evaluated and which started at local drugs task force level and examined. Every project does not get the nod or which continue on an ongoing basis. approval. A project might get approval in part. Once projects are mainstreamed, there is consist- Additional information not given on the floor of ency of funding. That is built into the system the House. thereafter. What was the Deputy’s first point? This Government continues to tackle the drug problem in the most comprehensive way possible. Mr. English: I asked about the increase in In this context, the Deputy should note that the insurance costs. CE programmes used to get staff mid-term review of the drugs strategy, which was but it is becoming difficult for many of them to hold on to them. I refer to organisations such as published in early June, found that there are the National Youth Federation. encouraging signs of progress since 2001 when the strategy was first launched. This suggests our cur- Mr. N. Ahern: If it was part of the organis- rent approach to tackling the drug problem is ation’s plan and if it was a genuine cost, it would proving to be effective. be allowed. An organisation would get a slight increase based on its staff projects. Mr. English: If I speak in Irish, am I allowed speak for longer? Mr. English: The question was not really about new projects but about existing ones. I probably E´ amon O´ Cuı´v: Deputy English should try it. worded the question wrongly.

Mr. English: I might try. Mr. N. Ahern: I think that is covered.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: As these are ordi- Mr. F. McGrath: Does the Minister of State nary questions, the Deputy’s supplementary accept we have had a major crisis in dealing with questions are limited to one minute. the drugs issue, particularly over the past five or six months? I welcome the announcements on E´ amon O´ Cuı´v: The Deputy will be permitted dealing with the cocaine problem. Is the Minister to speak for two minutes if he speaks in Irish. of State aware that many crimes, including violent crimes, are committed by people who are coked Mr. English: It is like the leaving certificate up, or high, on cocaine and that it has been used where one gets extra points. The Minister of State by those involved in gangland murders? will have a busy summer travelling throughout I refer to strategies to tackle the drugs prob- the country announcing these funds and handing lem. We need a more targeted response to deal out cheques. I look forward to pursuing him as with it because considerable amounts of money he does so. However, many of these programmes are being made from drugs, there are gangland murders and children’s lives are being destroyed. are under much pressure and need increased Does the Minister of State accept this is a reality grants because of increases in the costs of for many people? Is he aware of the widespread insurance and staff. Can he examine the prog- intimidation of communities every night of the rammes which have received grants over recent week? There are two areas in my constituency years to see if it is possible to provide them with where everything seems to close down after 9 extra money? These announcements, which p.m., where there is violence, fear and intimi- include some new schemes and some new places, dation and where people are afraid to leave their will be made in the next few weeks. flat complexes or estates. What response would With regard to multi-annual funding, is it pos- the Minister of State encourage as part of the sible to give projects a commitment over a strategy to deal with this problem? Is he aware number of years? In that way, people will not be that many of our ports and small harbours are obliged to spend half the year trying to raise used to import dangerous drugs? money through golf or poker classics or by what- ever means to guarantee money for the following Mr. N. Ahern: There is a problem in the drugs year. They could get on with the job we need area and there is a strategy in place to deal with them to do, that is, tackling drug abuse and help- it which is receiving considerable funding from ing young people go down different routes by Government. Over the past seven or eight years, keeping them busy doing something else. Are approximately \200 million has been provided there any plans to go down that route? through the local drugs task forces and the young 1115 Other 29 June 2005. Questions 1116

[Mr. N. Ahern.] this amount will be spent in full before the end people’s facilities and services fund, not to men- of the year. tion all the money spent by the Garda and Cus- toms and Excise on law enforcement and by the Mr. O’Shea: This is one of the good schemes in Department of Health and Children on treatment the Gaeltacht. I wish to ask about older people, and on education and awareness campaigns. We particularly those living alone, who want to seal only provide the money which goes to the local their houses against the elements, that is, win- drugs task forces and the young people’s facilities dows, doors and so on, and want central heating. and services fund. Are the number of applications in that category I do not know what the Deputy means by a going up or down? If they are going down, is it more targeted response. We have just done a an indication that, after a number of years, the mid-term review of the strategy. All the State back has been broken in respect of the number agencies and voluntary and community groups of people whose houses require this type of reno- were involved in it and had an input. The review vation or refurbishment? It is very important that took almost 12 months. There has been exhaus- older people are looked after in this regard. I am tive consultation so that everyone can feel part of interested to know the trends in this regard and and claim ownership of it. What has emerged is what the Minister sees as the ongoing need in that the product of everyone’s involvement. sector in the Gaeltacht areas. There is crime and there are areas in which ´ ´ there are difficulties but we have provided nearly Eamon O Cuı´v: There is a simple explanation \100 million through the young people’s facilities for the numbers. The Deputy might remember and services fund, including \3.2 million for the that my predecessor, Deputy Michael D. Higgins, new hall in in the Deputy’s con- ended the grants except for over 65 year olds but, stituency. We realise it is not enough just to tell to cut a long story short, they were restored fol- young people not to get involved in drugs. One lowing some issue with the Ombudsman. I agree must try to give them alternatives and point them with the Deputy that it is a fantastic scheme. There are a number of attractions. The amount in the direction of healthy sporting or other pur- of money concerned is fairly small and is limited. suits. Much money is being spent in that way. The scheme is now means-tested and it is quick, The youth service, certainly in the Dublin area, efficient and demand-led. has been totally revitalised in recent years In 1999 I changed the rules and, for the first through money from the young people’s facilities time, people installing central heating as an and services fund. It tries to give people in “at essential repaid became eligible for grant assist- risk” areas the opportunity to keep away from ance. At that time the maximum grant was £2,300 drugs and that is part of the way in which the and it was increased to £4,000. We increased the strategy operates. island grant considerably to £12,000. The effect of that was a huge rush of applications. The fantastic Housing Grants. beneficial effect was that many people, partic- 17. Ms McManus asked the Minister for Com- ularly elderly people and people living in poor munity, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs if he will circumstances, got central heating for the first account for the rising demand for housing in time because of the change in the rule. There is Gaeltacht areas that has seen the amount of a rule that once one gets the grant, one cannot money allocated for grants under the Housing get another grant for seven years. Many people (Gaeltacht) Acts rise by over \500,000 for 2005; received the grant three, four or five years ago and if he will make a statement on the matter. and cannot apply for a grant for further works [22597/05] until the seven years have elapsed. The most common applications are for repairs to doors and E´ amon O´ Cuı´v: The demand for housing grants windows and for central heating, things in which under the Housing (Gaeltacht) Acts has not one can make a significant dent with approxi- increased in the past few years. Indeed, following mately \5,000. Some 75% of the cost, or \5,000, increases in the number of applications from is provided. Considerably more money is avail- 1,025 in 1998 to a high of 1,486 in 2000, the able to those on the islands because the cost of numbers have fallen back incrementally to 911 in building on them is much higher than on the 2004. It is expected that the number of appli- mainland. cations this year will be comparable with last year. This is a reflection of the success of the Mr. O’Shea: Grants were paid in respect of 151 scheme in improving the housing stock in the new houses last year. Is there a trend whereby Gaeltacht over recent years to a point where the people who had left the Gaeltacht are returning level of applications appears to have stabilised. to rear their families or to settle? Would grant In terms of expenditure on the scheme, \4 mil- applications indicate whether that is happening to lion was allocated for Gaeltacht housing grants in any extent? 2004. However, expenditure did not reach the level anticipated, with \3.5 million of the allo- E´ amon O´ Cuı´v: I do not think so. There was a cation being spent. An allocation of \4 million rule change. In the old days if one did not live in has been made for 2005 and it is expected that the Gaeltacht at the time of application, one 1117 Other 29 June 2005. Questions 1118 could not get the grant. We changed that rule and the annual showcase awards, which will receive said we would sanction the grant even if the indi- \75,000 per annum over three years. A total of vidual was not living in the Gaeltacht at the time \45,000 of that has been paid by my Department of application but that we would not pay it until to date towards the YSI showcase awards for he or she was permanently resident there. We 2005 and, subject to completion of contract, fund- found, for example, that someone got a job in ing of the YSI programme of \125,000 per annum west Kerry who was living in Dublin. The person will be made available shortly. wanted to build a house but was technically not Funding up to \110,000 per annum will be pro- eligible for the grant because he was not living vided by my Department to put the community in the Gaeltacht at the time of application. We learning programme on a sustainable footing over changed that, but to safeguard the integrity of the the next three years. Funding for the 2005-06 scheme, we do not pay the grant until we are academic year will be made available shortly sub- satisfied that the person is permanently living in ject to the completion of contracts. This prog- the Gaeltacht. ramme is a relatively new teaching method in our I do not have figures on the number of people educational system which works by integrating involved. That would not give us a good indica- classroom learning in any subject with suitable tion because in many cases someone moves to the volunteering activity. The programme has been Gaeltacht for a job, rents a house and then builds running on a pilot basis in the Dublin Institute a house. Therefore, it would be very difficult to of Technology since September 2001 through the ascertain how many people are coming back into school of hospitality, management and tourism the Gaeltacht and then applying for housing with 12 students involved. By 2004 there were 65 grants. students involved across a wide range of volun- teering projects. Voluntarism Support. The institute’s aim is to have the community 18. Mr. Howlin asked the Minister for Com- learning programme method incorporated in all munity, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs if he will faculties over the next three years. It is my hope provide an update on the progress made to date that this initiative will serve as a model for other in implementing the package of measures he third level colleges over the coming years. The announced earlier in 2005 to provide immediate DIT community learning programme includes support for volunteering, including measures provision for ongoing review, and the effective- directed at promoting volunteering in second and ness of the Department’s funding will be assessed third level institutions; and if he will make a state- within three years. ment on the matter. [22595/05] Mr. O’Shea: I thank the Minister of State for 34. Mr. Cuffe asked the Minister for Com- that reply. When a parliamentary question was munity, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs if his tabled in April on the issue of locating volunteer Department has discussed the way in which the centres on the campuses of third level institutions, proposed voluntary work module is to operate in he indicated that in this context he would discuss courses offered by the Dublin Institute of Tech- the relevant matters as they arose with the Mini- nology. [22735/05] ster for Education and Science. I welcome the Mr. N. Ahern: I propose to take Questions initiative in DIT as it is moving in the right direc- Nos. 18 and 34 together. tion. However, it needs to be spread out geo- The progress on the new volunteering package, graphically. The idea of having volunteer centres which I announced in March 2005, is as follows. on the campuses of universities and institutes of Core funding will be provided to six volunteer technology is an important initiative as younger bureaux, totalling \900,000 over the next three people are exposed to the voluntary sector and years. The Department has recently provided are educated in community development. This funding to the Ballyfermot volunteer bureau and, amounts to loving one’s neighbour, especially subject to completion of contracts, funding for when one’s neighbour is in need. 2005 totalling \50,000 will be made available There are also recommendations in the joint shortly to the remaining five bureaux and to Vol- committee report. One of them was for an unteer Centres Ireland for the recruitment of a element of volunteering in the transition year. development officer. ADM Limited has Another was to carry the junior certificate CSPE requested proposals from all of the partnership on to leaving certificate level. These are not companies relating to the further \500,000 of directly within the Minister of State’s Depart- local area partnership funding which was ring- ment, but he indicated that the issues on third fenced for measures that encourage volunteers level volunteering would be discussed with the and volunteering. Minister for Education and Science as they arose. With regard to the Cohesion Fund of \500,000, Has there been any discussion in the interim? I hope that the Department will shortly be in a position to make a call for proposals through the Mr. N. Ahern: I do not think so. The package city and county development boards of which the announced was for \2 million per annum, which volunteering initiative will form part. Funding up is all we can do at present. It includes the aspect to \600,000 is being provided to support the on second level and third level. The young social young social innovators programme, including innovators annual showcase awards were held in 1119 Planning and Development Regulations: 29 June 2005. Motion (Resumed) 1120

[Mr. N. Ahern.] the Minister about progress on the pupil-teacher Dublin six weeks ago. About 2,000 students were ratio in primary schools; (11) Deputy Wall — to at it and the project is done in transition year. ask the Minister if she is aware of the concerns of That group existed before we got this funding, special needs assistants in the Kildare area; (12) but the funding, at \200,000 per annum for three Deputy McManus — the serious implications for years, will help to promote the project. Many of the VHI of the decision of the Minister not to the projects now being carried out in transition proceed with the planned introduction of risk year have a volunteer ethos. It introduces young equalisation in the health insurance sector; (13) people to different social projects, many of which Deputy O’Sullivan — the need for the Minister are about drink and drug addiction, caring for the to introduce clear and fair procedures for the elderly and so on. employment and retention of special needs assist- The third level project which we are supporting ants; (14) Deputy Stagg — to ask the Minister exists to create a volunteering ethos among young if she is aware of the concerns of special needs people. We are trying to make it part of a prog- assistants in the Kildare area; (15) Deputy Neville ramme where the students get grades and credits — the first annual report of the Ombudsman for for it. We have not yet done anything about a Children; (16) Deputy Sherlock — the need for bureau on campus. We felt that this project would the Minister to make a statement on biofuels pro- attract young people in second and third level and duction given the proposed changes in the sugar would give them a taste of volunteering. It is to regime; (17) Deputy Lowry — to ask the Minister be hoped that they will carry that on with them if the lack of inward investment in north into later life. We have not developed it beyond Tipperary has been drawn to his attention; (18) that which we have already announced. I was in Deputy Cuffe — the need for the Minister to DIT a few weeks ago and some of the questions address the difficulties, particularly those of a related to education policy. My interest is just to regulatory nature, facing small food producers; encourage volunteering. I cannot take over the (19) Deputy Broughan — the need for the Mini- Department of Education and Science. I under- ster to ensure that the universal service postal stand what the Deputy is saying and we may get obligation is discharged by An Post in all parts of an opportunity to look at that. Ireland; (20) Deputy Stanton — to ask the Mini- ster if she will investigate the situation of a person Written answers follow Adjournment Debate. (details supplied) whose bed in Beaumont Hospital was cancelled; (21) Deputy Sargent — Adjournment Debate Matters. the need for the Minister to ensure that compan- ies contracted by the public and private sectors An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: I wish to advise operate bill payment obligations in a prompt and the House of the following matters in respect of proper way; and (22) Deputy Glennon — the which notice has been given under Standing situation surrounding the apparent miscarriage of Order 21 and the name of the Member in each case: (1) Deputy Kehoe — to ask the Minister if justice in the case of a person (details supplied) she is aware of the condition of New Ross elderly and the efforts to have the case reviewed by the day care centre; (2) Deputy Costello — the need British authorities. for the Minister to explain the redesignation of The matters raised by Deputies Neville, the investigation into the death of a person Michael D. Higgins, Sargent and Carey have been (details supplied) on the Garda PULSE computer selected for discussion. system; (3) Deputy Michael D. Higgins — the need for protection under the social welfare Planning and Development Regulations: Motion system of migrant workers affected by sudden (Resumed). closures in the construction industry; (4) Deputy Deenihan — the shortfall of funding for The following motion was moved today by the additional places in the intellectual disability sec- Minister for the Environment, Heritage and tor in County Kerry for 2005; (5) Deputy Breeda Local Government: Moynihan-Cronin — the need for funding for the establishment of a sexual assault treatment unit That Da´il E´ ireann approves the following at Kerry General Hospital; (6) Deputy Finian regulations in draft: McGrath — the potential loss of the 12th class- Planning and Development Regulations room teacher at Scoil Mhuire Marino, Griffith 2005, Avenue, Dublin; (7) Deputy Crawford — the urgent need for the Minister to provide adequate copies of which were laid in draft form before resource and remedial teaching hours to small Da´il E´ ireann on 16 June 2005. rural schools; (8) Deputy Fiona O’Malley — to ask the Minister to undertake a review of the Mr. Morgan: I was concluding my contribution electoral register system given the high level of on a reference to hot food. The Minister’s body inaccuracies; (9) Deputy Carey — the need to language indicated that the regulations are not review the impact of the policy decision on the aimed at convenience outlets. At what are they probation and welfare service village project in aimed? Are they aimed at hamburger stalls? Finglas, Dublin 11; (10) Deputy Hayes — to ask They are already well regulated by the environ- 1121 Planning and Development Regulations: 29 June 2005. Motion (Resumed) 1122 mental health officers, HACCP and other ning and liquor licensing codes. I am not con- arrangements. vinced that cobbling together provisions on off- licences will deal satisfactorily with the issues Mr. Roche: That does not arise. involved. I am not sure, for example, that alcohol should be available for sale at garage forecourts Mr. Morgan: I look forward to the Minister’s as it makes little sense to have shops attached to explanation on that. The other issue relates to petrol stations which are bulging with alcohol. off-licences. I am happy enough to see wine sold We are aware, after all, of the dangers of drinking from a fridge in a corner of the store. How will and driving. the Minister be prescriptive about that? Can he I wonder what submissions the Minister keep it to a small scale? The issue relating to turf received on the matter being acutely aware that cutting is not unique to the midlands. We in there seems to be a licensed vintners’ cumann County Louth have our own meadows, though I within Fianna Fa´il which has lobbied him very will not sing “The turfman from Ardee” for the strongly over the last month. Minister. Turf cutting continues to this day right up into the Cooley Mountains. I am concerned Mr. Roche: Not on this. The Deputy should tell that small, individual plot-holders who cut turf the truth. for domestic use may be caught by the provisions and look forward to clarification on the matter. Mr. Cuffe: I would like to see any represen- We should remember that regulations and by- tations the Minister received from them or on laws on the use of four-wheel vehicles and quad their behalf. bikes caught a number of sheep farmers, which was not the intention. Sheep farmers require Mr. O’Dowd: On regulations. quad bikes to travel on mountains for legitimate purposes and have no intention of damaging the Mr. Roche: The Deputy should not make up hillside environment. I understand, therefore, the stories. concerns of other speakers that domestic or small-scale commercial turf cutters will be caught Mr. Cuffe: It was very brazen. It was the by the regulations. The Minister’s body language licensed vintners within the Fianna Fa´il Party tells me we should have no major worries in this who lobbied the Government on this issue quite area. I look forward to his response. recently.

Mr. Cuffe: I understand the Minister made cer- Mr. Roche: On this. tain references to the Green Party earlier. I wish it to be clear that the Green Party wanted the Mr. Cuffe: On the generality of the intoxicating draft regulations to be discussed in the House to liquor issue. ensure they were considered in the open, that every Member who wished could contribute and Mr. Roche: The Deputy should stick to the that members of the public could attend. I am not truth. They did not lobby on this issue. sure the introduction of draft regulations in the Da´il on the last sitting week is a proper and fitting Mr. O’Dowd: Consumers voted against the way to do business. Government’s proposals.

Mr. Roche: We could have discussed it for Mr. Roche: They were in a minority. hours in committee. I will address that in my response. Mr. O’Dowd: They were there.

Mr. Cuffe: I note also that the Minister Mr. Roche: But they were in a minority. remarked on my absence earlier. I have responsi- bility for two portfolios and have not yet mas- Mr. O’Dowd: Consumers are in a minority. tered the art of bilocation. I hope the Minister will take account of that. Mr. Cuffe: I am not convinced consumers’ rights are being considered and am sure the Com- Mr. Roche: I will let the Deputy away with it petition Authority will have something to say this time. about it when it has had full sight of the regulations. Mr. Cuffe: It is very hard to absorb the sub- Peat must be acknowledged as a finite stance of the three proposals for change in the resource. The principle behind environmental short time available for their discussion. To the impact assessment is to consider where there will best of my knowledge, Members were not circu- be an impact on the environment. It makes sense lated with the full text of changes to the regu- to regulate peat extraction as we cannot continue lations and it was up to ourselves to seek them with a slash and burn approach to finite out. I acquired them only recently. resources. We must look carefully at saving such The red tape and bureaucracy surrounding the resources, especially in the context of the pur- sale of alcohol is a complete mess and there is a chase by the Dutch and other governments of real need for rationalisation between the plan- bogland for the Irish Government to hold in trust. 1123 Planning and Development Regulations: 29 June 2005. Motion (Resumed) 1124

[Mr. Cuffe.] tion. One hears from taxi drivers that they regu- It is indicative of their lack of confidence that the larly bring to discos people who are drunk before Government is doing enough on the issue. I am they leave their houses. A fundamental change in worried by the exemption of one of the largest behaviour has taken place. peat extracting interests in the country, over My aim is to establish the motivation behind which there is a significant question mark. the regulations. Is the intention to limit the I cannot understand why the Minister is only number of off-licences or to respond to the aim partially incorporating the Aarhus directive in the of publicans to reduce competition, with which regulation. Why is there a delay in incorporation they clearly take issue? It is not at all clear that in the context of provision for the right to chal- the regulations will modify behaviour as the fun- lenge in a court of law public decisions which damental issue in that context is price. If one’s have been made without respect for environmen- aim was to modify behaviour, one would revisit tal law? As such provisions are seminal to proper the Intoxicating Liquor Act which caused the planning and development in the State, I am at a changes rather than make regulations. I cannot loss to understand why the Minister has failed to see how the regulations can be implemented in transpose the directive wholly and completely. practice where, for example, an application is My guess is that it is an example of a Government made to build a supermarket which can be policy to make it more difficult for the public licensed in a commercially-zoned area. It is very voice to be heard. The Government first charged difficult to see how local authorities would turn members of the public \20 to make a planning that down, and if they do turn it down, how would submission, then prevented them from appealing An Bord Pleana´la respond to that, given that the a decision unless they had made a submission in establishment is in a commercial zone? Will the the first instance and is now about to embark on regulations be accompanied by directions to local a course of action which will deny individuals to authorities? Will local authorities be issued with make appeals by removing the opportunity for a guidelines by the Department specifying what is second bite of the cherry. Such provisions do not required from them in terms of the number of serve the public interest. off-licences that is desirable. I am not clear on Given the Minister’s pride in being a good how the regulations actually—— European, I cannot understand why he pleads as his reason for introducing the regulation the Mr. Roche: It is the opposite. It gives the local probability of a daily fine by the EU. Fear of fines authorities the right. I will explain that. is not a good reasons for the introduction of regulations. Ms C. Murphy: I am not convinced it will solve the problem because although many things are Mr. Roche: It is a fact, unfortunately. regulated when people make a planning appli- cation they often end up getting permission. It Mr. Cuffe: I hope the Minister can rise above it. will not stop every off-licence so which ones will be stopped and how many? Ms C. Murphy: I received a note yesterday Kildare is an area with significant wetlands. I explaining the regulations. I understand changes have a difficulty with what I perceive to be a reac- in the Intoxicating Liquor Act 2000 which tive change rather than a proactive change, in removed the restriction on the transfer of licences that the regulation appears to be designed to to any part of the State have led to the establish- avoid a fine rather than being based on a definite ment of many off-licences in urban areas. idea about how wetlands should develop. The Changes to establish necessary planning control one organisation that has had a positive role in over the significant increase in the number of getting us to value our bogs is the European large-scale off-licence premises and balance con- Commission. I would hate to think that what we sumer interests are needed. were trying to do is more or less to get around a I represent a primarily urban constituency, sanction it is trying to impose for a very good much of the development of which is recent. reason. I am concerned about what will be the While it is the kind of area in which one would result of this. Too often we have seen situations expect to see new pubs, I have mainly seen new where the likes of Bord na Mo´ na has applied for clubs, hotels and off-licences. This observation is cutaway bogs to be used as landfills. It appears relevant to the point which has been made about that the only value put on wetlands is an econ- the way in which people circumvent the licensing omic one, rather than for their value as a distinc- laws in the development of new facilities. I have tive habitat, from a tourism point of view or sim- seen supermarkets and forecourts expand from ply because they have existed for centuries before the sale of wine to more extensive sale of all kinds any of us arrived. of intoxicating liquor. One sees in these outlets rows of alcoholic products in response to public Minister for the Environment, Heritage and demand which in turn has responded to changes Local Government (Mr. Roche): I thank in pricing policies. In contrast to the scenario in Members for their contributions. I wish to make the case of tobacco, it is clear that increases in a couple of points specifically on the manner in excise duties have changed patterns of behaviour which this matter was handled. Deputy Gilmore rather than reduced the level of alcohol consump- disagreed with me regarding how this matter 1125 Planning and Development Regulations: 29 June 2005. Motion (Resumed) 1126 came before the House and not before the joint An Ceann Comhairle: The Minister should be committee. I suggest he has a word with the allowed to speak without interruption. Labour Party Whip. I want to put the matter straight. Mr. Roche: I was going to suggest what Deputy The Government wanted this matter to be dis- Gilmore said was probably inadvertent but cussed at length in committee because that is the obviously it was not, as he said himself, it was just appropriate place to deal with a technical issue a political charge. I am telling the House the like this. Deputy Boyle objected and said he had truth. Deputy Boyle disagreed with it going to the issues he wanted discussed in the House, which committee, which he is entitled to do and Deputy he is entitled to do. Because there was no una- Gilmore’s party agreed with that. That is the nimity, the matter came to the House. The reality. Deputy Gilmore appears to be besotted Labour Whip agreed with Deputy Boyle’s point. with conspiracy theories — perhaps the first sign Those are the facts. of a man who has entered into some form of mid- life crisis—— Mr. Gilmore: That is a load of nonsense. The Government orders the business of the House. Mr. O’Dowd: The Minister is well past it.

Mr. Roche: Deputy Gilmore knows he is not Mr. Roche: ——as his delusory meanderings in telling the truth. this regard have displaced all logic. Alternatively — I hope this is the case — he is a man who has Mr. Gilmore: There are 17 guillotines this spent far too much time in the sun without the week. benefit of his pit helmet.

Mr. O’Dowd: The Minister should discuss the Mr. Gilmore: Bluster. real issues. He should answer our questions. Mr. Roche: Whatever the explanation of An Ceann Comhairle: The Minister should be Deputy Gilmore’s wild-eyed delusions in this allowed to speak without interruption. There is matter, the fact remains that the Government only five minutes remaining for this debate. wanted to deal with this matter in an Oireachtas committee, not least to give Members from all Mr. Roche: I am telling the truth and Deputy sides of the House the opportunity to explore — Gilmore is misleading the House. as Deputy Catherine Murphy tried to do — their concerns on the issue. Mr. Gilmore: I am not misleading the House. I made a political charge and I stand over it. Mr. Gilmore: The Minister wants to stop people in rural Ireland cutting turf off their own Mr. Roche: Deputy Gilmore made an alle- bogs. gation that was false. Mr. Roche: The reality is that he is guilty of Mr. Gilmore: I made a political charge. misleading the House and making wild allegations. An Ceann Comhairle: The Minister should be allowed to speak without interruption. Mr. O’Dowd: The Minister is guilty of talking rubbish. Mr. Roche: Deputy Gilmore is repeating his false allegation. The reality is that last week at Mr. Roche: I am sad that the propensity of the the Whips meeting Deputy Boyle indicated he Opposition to seek to make a political football wanted this matter discussed in the House. He out of everything has now started to displace all did not speak to me about that and Deputy logic. This has resulted in the worst manner of Gilmore’s Whip agreed with him. On the basis handling this issue. This matter could have been that there was no unanimity, it came before the before a committee. I was anxious and willing to House. The Deputy should not tell this House go before the committee. I wanted to go before something that is a pack of—— the committee and was prepared to give this matter, hours of debate before—— Mr. Gilmore: Since when is unanimity required to bring something before the House. Mr. Gilmore: The Minister has still not answered a single question. Mr. Roche: The reality is that Deputy Gilmore has misinformed the House in this context. Mr. Roche: ——the committee and the reality is that Deputy Gilmore prevented it. Mr. Gilmore: The Minister is using this as a distraction because he is trying to stop people Mr. O’Dowd: The Minister is talking out his from cutting turf. time. He is confused. 1127 Planning and Development Regulations: 29 June 2005. Motion (Resumed) 1128

An Ceann Comhairle: The Minister should be Mr. Roche: It is a serious matter. There is a allowed to speak without interruption. lacuna in the law and I have argued for many years that we should have planning permission Mr. Roche: Let us move to the issues. I am not and that is part of the intention of this regulation. confused but Deputy Gilmore is misleading the Deputies Gilmore and Morgan raised the issue House. He is doing a disservice to democracy of hotplates in garages. The regulations do not when he says one thing in the secrecy of the refer to this matter. They were dealt with as far Whips committee and another thing in public back as the 2001 regulations. here. On the issue of the single application form, Deputy O’Dowd is unaware that draft regulations Mr. O’Dowd: I think we are getting through to were circulated—— the Minister.

Mr. Roche: I will not allow that to happen. Let Mr. Gilmore: What about the turf? us deal with the issues. Deputy O’Dowd dis- agreed with my proposal to introduce planning Mr. Roche: Let me get to the points as they applications for off-licences. I am amazed at his were made. Draft regulations were circulated. position on that. To return to the point made by There was a great response, some of which were Deputy Catherine Murphy, under the existing very detailed. We are working through that issue legislation, planning permission is required for in the Department. I expect to be in a position to one to open a chipper but it is not required for publish the new regulations later in the summer. an off-licence. I do not know where other Members are coming from but I think that is a Mr. O’Dowd: That is what Deputy Mitchell bizarre situation. referred to.

Mr. O’Dowd: The wine shops that are all over Mr. Roche: At that stage, maybe we will have the country do not need planning permission. a logical debate on them in committee. I men- That is the point. tioned this in the Oireachtas committee the week before last, I will also publish draft and manage- Mr. Roche: In any town in the country one will ment guidelines relating to planning to ensure get complaints about the proliferation of off- consistency in planning authorities. licences. That I am bringing forward this legislation on peat extraction, demonstrates my willingness to Mr. O’Dowd: One has to go to court to make meet the European Commission’s concerns on an objection. Ireland’s performance in the environmental area, Mr. Roche: Deputy O’Dowd can try and shout a point touched on by Deputy Cuffe. This change me down but he will not get away with it. in natural heritage areas, NHAs, will meet the outstanding concerns of the EU Commission and Mr. O’Dowd: I am not shouting the Minister the Court of Justice. Deputy Gilmore asked what down. I am giving him an answer. has changed. The reality is that the Commission has been in continuous contact with us on this Mr. Roche: What is being done here is to give issue. It is anxious that we should ensure that local authorities and local communities a right to planning authorities have the possibility of step- have a say in where an off-licence is established. ping in to halt industrial scale peat extraction where that is necessary. I remind Deputies that Mr. O’Dowd: But not where alcohol is being we are talking about peat extraction in excess of sold, that is the point. 10 hectares, which is 24.71 acres. That is certainly not a year’s supply for a farmer. Mr. Roche: Deputy O’Dowd is introducing yet Deputy Naughten raised the issue of forestry, another false trail. which is not dealt with in these regulations. Tele- communications masts were dealt with by Deputy Mr. O’Dowd: No, I am not. Gilmore, who again shows signs of senility in this Mr. Roche: His party has been holding anti- matter, because these issues were dealt with in social behaviour meetings around the country the 2001 regulations and discussed at some with varying levels of success. There was a very length. I contributed to the discussions. As a low turnout in one case but I will not embarrass spokesman on environmental policy I am amazed him on that. Maybe the next time he is holding that Deputy Gilmore appears not to be aware one of these he will explain to voters why he that masts now require planning permission. wants off-licences to be able to operate on an Matters like this—— untrammelled basis here. Mr. Gilmore: Except where the State agencies Mr. O’Dowd: I never said that. think they are exempt. 1129 Planning and Development Regulations: 29 June 2005. Motion (Resumed) 1130

Mr. Roche: Do not come back at it now. Mr. Gilmore: Will an environmental impact Deputy Gilmore is caught out. assessment be required?

An Ceann Comhairle: The Minister should be Mr. Roche: Members should keep to the truth allowed to speak without interruption. and the facts. As I stated, this is not as Deputy Gilmore wishes. Mr. Roche: The Deputy has been caught out Mr. Naughten: Local authority offices will have and has shown himself to be incapable yet again. a field day.

An Ceann Comhairle: The time has concluded. Mr. Roche: We have an illustration of how Deputy Gilmore will operate from now on, that Mr. Roche: The reality is that we should have is, by distorting the truth, telling the first fable this type of discussion—— that comes into his mind, being delusionary and denying the reality. Mr. O’Dowd: The Minister is headless. He should go out to the bog and dig. (Interruptions).

Mr. Roche: ——in an Oireachtas committee. Mr. Roche: The reality is that after Deputy Two of the parties in this House conspired to Boyle raised a question, he—— ensure it would not happen. Deputy Gilmore has made wild-eyed, delusionary assertions that, Mr. O’Dowd: That is the programme for somehow or other, I managed to persuade Government. Deputies Boyle and Stagg—— Mr. Naughten: That is the programme for Government. Mr. Gilmore: One will not need planning per- mission to cut turf. Mr. Gilmore: The Minister will hear a lot more about this before the year is out. Mr. Roche: That is correct, one does not and one will not. Question put.

The Da´il divided: Ta´, 69; Nı´l, 61.

Ta´

Ahern, Michael. Keaveney, Cecilia. Ahern, Noel. Kelleher, Billy. Andrews, Barry. Kelly, Peter. Ardagh, Sea´n. Killeen, Tony. Blaney, Niall. Kirk, Seamus. Brady, Johnny. Lenihan, Brian. Brady, Martin. Lenihan, Conor. Brennan, Seamus. McEllistrim, Thomas. Browne, John. McGuinness, John. Callanan, Joe. Martin, Michea´l. Callely, Ivor. Moloney, John. Carey, Pat. Moynihan, Donal. Carty, John. Moynihan, Michael. Cassidy, Donie. Mulcahy, Michael. Collins, Michael. Nolan, M. J. Cregan, John. O´ Cuı´v, E´ amon. Cullen, Martin. O´ Fearghaı´l, Sea´n. Curran, John. O’Connor, Charlie. Davern, Noel. O’Dea, Willie. Dempsey, Noel. O’Donnell, Liz. Dennehy, John. O’Donovan, Denis. Devins, Jimmy. O’Flynn, Noel. Ellis, John. O’Keeffe, Batt. Fahey, Frank. O’Malley, Fiona. Finneran, Michael. O’Malley, Tim. Fitzpatrick, Dermot. Parlon, Tom. Fleming, Sea´n. Power, Peter. Fox, Mildred. Power, Sea´n. Gallagher, Pat The Cope. Roche, Dick. Glennon, Jim. Sexton, Mae. Grealish, Noel. Smith, Brendan. Hanafin, Mary. Smith, Michael. Haughey, Sea´n. Walsh, Joe. Healy-Rae, Jackie. Woods, Michael. Hoctor, Ma´ire. 1131 Veterinary Practice Bill 2004: 29 June 2005. Report Stage (Resumed) and Final Stage 1132

Nı´l

Allen, Bernard. Mitchell, Olivia. Boyle, Dan. Morgan, Arthur. Breen, James. Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda. Broughan, Thomas P. Murphy, Catherine. Bruton, Richard. Murphy, Gerard. Burton, Joan. Naughten, Denis. Connaughton, Paul. Neville, Dan. Crawford, Seymour. Noonan, Michael. Crowe, Sea´n. O´ Caola´in, Caoimhghı´n. Cuffe, Ciara´n. O´ Snodaigh, Aengus. Deasy, John. O’Dowd, Fergus. Deenihan, Jimmy. O’Keeffe, Jim. Durkan, Bernard J. O’Shea, Brian. English, Damien. O’Sullivan, Jan. Enright, Olwyn. Pattison, Seamus. Gilmore, Eamon. Penrose, Willie. Gregory, Tony. Perry, John. Harkin, Marian. Rabbitte, Pat. Hayes, Tom. Ring, Michael. Higgins, Joe. Ryan, Eamon. Higgins, Michael D. Ryan, Sea´n. Hogan, Phil. Sargent, Trevor. Howlin, Brendan. Sherlock, Joe. Kehoe, Paul. Shortall, Ro´ isı´n. Kenny, Enda. Stagg, Emmet. Lynch, Kathleen. Stanton, David. McCormack, Padraic. Timmins, Billy. McGrath, Finian. Twomey, Liam. McGrath, Paul. Upton, Mary. McHugh, Paddy. Wall, Jack. McManus, Liz.

Tellers: Ta´, Deputies Browne and Kelleher; Nı´l, Deputies Kehoe and Stagg.

Question declared carried. a regular basis. The administration of medicines, whether as doses or inter-muscular injections, are Veterinary Practice Bill 2004 [Seanad]: Report exempted at this time and a farmer can carry out Stage (Resumed) and Final Stage. such procedures under section 55 of the legis- lation. It is only right and appropriate that this is Debate resumed on amendment No. 8: the case. I have no difficulty with the principle that the In page 41, line 25, after “Minister” to insert Miniser can bring forward regulation exclusions ´ “with the approval of Da´il Eireann”. because procedures may change at some stage in —(Deputy Naughten). the future. However, it is vitally important that they receive a positive decision from the Houses Amendment put and declared lost. of the Oireachtas before the Minister implements any of the regulations. We have witnessed the Amendment No. 9 not moved. situation in terms of prescription-only medicines, An Ceann Comhairle: Amendments Nos. 10 and there is no guarantee that it will be debated and 14 are related and will be discussed together. by the Houses of the Oireachtas. I hope we will be given the opportunity to tease out the issues Mr. Naughten: I move amendment No. 10: when the occasion arises later this year. However, In page 43, line 1, after “regulations” to we do not have a right to debate the detail of insert the following: those regulations. It is up to members of the Opposition to table a motion in order for them “following the approval of each House of to be debated and the Government can then use the Oireachtas”. its majority to block it. It is critical that any provision made under section The situation is the same in this case. If we are 55 of the Bill, or any regulations made under such to water down the rights of farmers to carry out a provision, should be brought before the various procedures on animals, it is imperative Oireachtas. The power given under subsection (5) that the Minister is able to present a definitive means that the Minister may make regulations to argument to the House as to why he or she exclude the application of subsection (3), which believes the regulation should be brought for- relates to the exemption of farmers from carrying ward at that time and why there should be a out particular procedures, such as administering restriction with regard to the procedures farmers an antibiotic or another form of medicine. Cur- can carry out on their farms and on their animals. rently, procedures such as the paring of sheep Amendment No. 14 is similar and elaborates hooves and the dehorning of cattle are done on on the issue of regulation of veterinary practice. 1133 Veterinary Practice Bill 2004: 29 June 2005. Report Stage (Resumed) and Final Stage 1134

Under section 59, the regulations provide for the additional cost to farmers because what the Mini- practice of veterinary medicine by non-registered ster will do is exclude a particular procedure persons. Again, the issue is what will be exempted which, up to that point, was carried out by farm- from the regulations. This was discussed on Com- ers and rule that it will have to be carried out by mittee Stage and it is self-explanatory. However, a veterinary practitioner. That will mean a fee for amendment No. 10 is critical. It is imperative that the call-out of the vet and the cost of carrying these issues are put before the House and teased out the procedure, whatever it might be. In those out in detail and that the Minister explains why circumstances, the Minister for Agriculture and farmers should be precluded from carrying out a Food should be prepared and willing to come particular procedure, whatever that procedure. before this House to explain why he or she believes that such a restriction should go ahead. Dr. Upton: This is similar to one of the amend- The standard procedure with the 21 day annul- ments we discussed yesterday and the reasons for ment clause is not appropriate in this case the discussion are the same. When regulations are because it does not provide for this issue to be being made it is very important that there is an debated. opportunity to discuss them and their impli- In 2000, the then Minister for the Environment, cations. There is no automatic right that we Heritage and Local Government accepted an would have a full debate, if necessary, on the amendment providing for the bringing of pro- regulations. We highlighted this issue as it related cedures and regulations back before the House to a different amendment yesterday and, indeed, for debate. Indeed, that is what we did earlier it was raised on Committee Stage too. I do not today regarding that Department and the Plan- want to rehash the entire argument now but I ning and Development Bill. I cannot see why agree with Deputy Naughten that it is important such a provision cannot be allowed here, that the option should be available that regu- especially as it relates to this particular issue. It is lations come before the House and we have the critically important that farmers are protected, opportunity to discuss them in detail. that the Minister gives detailed reasons he or she is bringing forward these regulations to restrict Minister of State at the Department of Agri- procedures that would have been standard up to culture and Food (Mr. Browne): As the Minister that point, carried out by farmers on farms across for Agriculture and Food, Deputy Coughlan, the country. pointed out, this issue was addressed in detail on Committee Stage. Deputies Naughten and Mr. Browne: As I said, the Minister for Agri- Crawford again propose, by means of amendment culture and Food has given this matter serious No. 10, that regulations made under section 55(5) consideration since the Committee Stage debate. must be laid before each House of the She is happy that the precedent in this House has Oireachtas. They also propose, by means of always been that the making of an order would amendment No. 14, to change the form of laying be placed before both Houses of the Oireachtas procedure, to be followed when the Minister with the standard 21-day annulment provision, makes regulations regarding emergencies. This except in exceptional circumstances. Deputy latter amendment also has implications for Naughten has referred to the Department of the section 55(5). Environment, Heritage and Local Government, In the case of sections 55 and 59, provision is but in my Department, where we introduce levies made for the laying of ministerial regulations or charges, they are always laid before this House before both Houses of the Oireachtas, with the before the regulation is made by the Minister. standard 21 day annulment procedure. The main The Minister for Agriculture and Food is happy purpose of these regulation-making powers is to that what she is doing is correct and is in accord- enable the Minister to deal with difficulties that ance with precedent in this House over many arise under section 55(2) or section 55(3). There- years. fore, this provision is generally not intended in any way to broaden this provision but rather to Mr. Naughten: The difficulty is that this is a do the opposite, if necessary. In these circum- charge. The reality is that when the Minister stances, the requirement to lay the regulation excludes a particular procedure that up to now before the Oireachtas, as set out in the Bill, is a was carried out as a standard operating practice more appropriate approach and, therefore, I do on a farm, it will mean a charge because it will be up to a veterinary practitioner to carry out that not propose to accept these amendments. procedure. That is why I believe that such a regu- Mr. Naughten: The Minister of State is making lation should come before the House. my argument for me. I accept that the reason for An Ceann Comhairle: Is amendment No. 10 the procedure and the provision is not to broaden being pressed? but to restrict what was, up to now, common agri- cultural practices carried out by farmers on their Mr. Naughten: Yes. farms. Subsequent to the Minister bringing in the regulation, there will automatically be an Amendment put. 1135 Veterinary Practice Bill 2004: 29 June 2005. Report Stage (Resumed) and Final Stage 1136

The Da´il divided: Ta´, 55; Nı´l, 72.

Ta´

Allen, Bernard. Mitchell, Olivia. Boyle, Dan. Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda. Breen, James. Murphy, Catherine. Broughan, Thomas P. Murphy, Gerard. Bruton, Richard. Naughten, Denis. Burton, Joan. Neville, Dan. Connaughton, Paul. Noonan, Michael. Cowley, Jerry. O´ Caola´in, Caoimhghı´n. Crawford, Seymour. O´ Snodaigh, Aengus. Crowe, Sea´n. O’Dowd, Fergus. Cuffe, Ciara´n. O’Keeffe, Jim. Deasy, John. O’Shea, Brian. Deenihan, Jimmy. O’Sullivan, Jan. Durkan, Bernard J. Pattison, Seamus. English, Damien. Penrose, Willie. Enright, Olwyn. Perry, John. Gilmore, Eamon. Rabbitte, Pat. Harkin, Marian. Ring, Michael. Hayes, Tom. Ryan, Sea´n. Higgins, Michael D. Sargent, Trevor. Hogan, Phil. Sherlock, Joe. Howlin, Brendan. Shortall, Ro´ isı´n. Kehoe, Paul. Stagg, Emmet. Kenny, Enda. Stanton, David. Lynch, Kathleen. Twomey, Liam. McGrath, Finian. Upton, Mary. McGrath, Paul. Wall, Jack. McManus, Liz.

Nı´l

Ahern, Michael. Hoctor, Ma´ire. Ahern, Noel. Keaveney, Cecilia. Andrews, Barry. Kelleher, Billy. Ardagh, Sea´n. Kelly, Peter. Blaney, Niall. Killeen, Tony. Brady, Johnny. Kirk, Seamus. Brady, Martin. Lenihan, Brian. Brennan, Seamus. Lenihan, Conor. Browne, John. McDowell, Michael. Callanan, Joe. McEllistrim, Thomas. Callely, Ivor. McGuinness, John. Carey, Pat. Martin, Michea´l. Carty, John. Moloney, John. Cassidy, Donie. Moynihan, Donal. Collins, Michael. Moynihan, Michael. Cowen, Brian. Mulcahy, Michael. Cregan, John. Nolan, M.J. Cullen, Martin. O´ Cuı´v, E´ amon. Curran, John. O´ Fearghaı´l, Sea´n. Davern, Noel. O’Connor, Charlie. Dempsey, Noel. O’Dea, Willie. Dempsey, Tony. O’Donnell, Liz. Dennehy, John. O’Donovan, Denis. Devins, Jimmy. O’Keeffe, Batt. Ellis, John. O’Keeffe, Ned. Fahey, Frank. O’Malley, Fiona. Finneran, Michael. O’Malley, Tim. Fitzpatrick, Dermot. Parlon, Tom. Fleming, Sea´n. Power, Peter. Fox, Mildred. Power, Sea´n. Gallagher, Pat The Cope. Roche, Dick. Glennon, Jim. Sexton, Mae. Grealish, Noel. Smith, Brendan. Hanafin, Mary. Smith, Michael. Haughey, Sea´n. Walsh, Joe. Healy-Rae, Jackie. Woods, Michael.

Tellers: Ta´, Deputies Kehoe and Stagg; Nı´l, Deputies Browne and Kelleher.

Amendment declared lost. In page 43, between lines 20 and 21, to insert the following: Mr. Naughten: I move amendment No. 11: 1137 Veterinary Practice Bill 2004: 29 June 2005. Report Stage (Resumed) and Final Stage 1138

“56.—A person may transport an animal be discussed when the animal diseases legislation to a veterinary premises under the meaning comes before the House. of Part 9 for the purposes of first aid or medi- cal assistance in an emergency, without com- Mr. Naughten: Will this matter be discussed plying with normal animal movement or addressed? regulations.”. Mr. Browne: It will be dealt with. I tabled this amendment because it came to my notice from talking to a number of farmers in Mr. Naughten: I will withdraw the amendment recent weeks that where Caesarean sections, on that basis. especially emergency ones, must be carried out on cattle, it has increasingly become the case that Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. veterinary practitioners want the animals to be brought into their premises to carry out the pro- Dr. Upton: I move amendment No. 12: cedure. Up to now the vast majority of Caesarean In page 43, line 26, to delete “, the details of sections on cows were performed on the farm, but which are registered on the Register”. this is not now the case. Given the difficulty this requirement presents and having regard to the I raised this issue on Committee Stage because provisions of the animal movement regulations in under the legislation, as drafted, it seems harsh place, it is imperative to make provision in this that it is criminal offence for a vet to advertise or regard. use any qualification that is not registered on the The Minister said on Committee Stage that the register. The deletion of the words proposed in animal health Bill would deal with this issue, but the amendment would address that anomaly. If that Bill is still promised and nothing has hap- the qualification in question is one a vet holds, it pened in respect of it. That Bill has many impli- seems harsh that the use of such a title should cations and it will not have an easy passage give rise to an issue of criminality. Acceptance of through the Houses of the Oireachtas. In the this amendment would clarify the position to the meantime farmers will be left in an unenviable effect that a vet is committing an offence by position in that they will not be cross-compliant claiming to have a qualification which he or she if they bring an animal to a veterinary practice does not have and it is not necessary that the for a Caesarean section. This is the practice in qualification be registered on the register to avoid some parts of the country and vets will not per- criminal liability. A vet should be obliged to form the procedure on the farm, rather in their register all the details but such provision could be premises. In light of that, I ask the Minister of dealt with elsewhere in the legislation. State to provide for such circumstances by accepting this amendment to ensure that farmers Mr. Naughten: I support Deputy Upton’s will not be in breach of the regulations until we amendment. can thrash out this issue when we debate the ani- Mr. Browne: Deputy Upton proposes to delete mal health Bill. the phrase “the details of which are registered on the Register” from section 56. The Minister, Dr. Upton: I support this amendment on the Deputy Coughlan, indicated on Committee Stage basis that if there is not such a provision, farmers that she would reflect further on these issues. will face a difficulty if such an emergency were to Subsequently, she had the matter further exam- arise. An animal welfare issue may arise under ined in the Department in consultation with the the Bill as drafted. If the Bill were passed, a Attorney General’s office and the Veterinary farmer who moved an animal in such an emer- Council of Ireland. As has already been indi- gency may technically be in breach of the law or, cated, the current wording of this section is pri- alternatively, the farmer may decide not to move marily designed to ensure that the public is not the animal if he or she is to operate within the misled as a result of a registered person dis- law. That would be an invidious situation. On that playing, for example, on the signage for his or her basis I support the amendment. premises a title or a qualification which he or she does not in reality possess. Mr. Browne: This amendment proposes to Sections 46 and 50 make provision for regis- provide an emergency clause to cover animals tration of specialties and additional qualifications being brought to a veterinary premises. As where they would be a matter of public record Deputy Naughten said, the Minister, Deputy and could assist a member of the public in choos- Coughlan, outlined the reason she would not ing the best practitioner. It is desirable that letter- agree to this amendment. First, it is not a matter heads and signage belonging to a practice should for this legislation, rather it is more appropriate match the qualifications registered with the to the animal diseases legislation. Second, there council and that an incentive is provided with a would be serious doubts about providing for such view to ensuring that this is the case. However, a general exemption to animal movement rules, as has been said previously, if a person merely particularly in the case of highly contagious dis- overlooks the registered qualification or specialty eases. The matter would need careful consider- which that person genuinely holds, it would sim- ation and it is not one for this legislation. It will ply be a matter for him or her to rectify this when 1139 Veterinary Practice Bill 2004: 29 June 2005. Report Stage (Resumed) and Final Stage 1140

[Mr. Browne.] Dr. Upton: I support this amendment based on attention has been drawn to the oversight by the what Deputy Naughten has just stated. It is a council. One could not envisage a person being rather unusual situation if the vet may pass along subject to disciplinary proceedings in a situation the facility to write or deliver a prescription when where he or she has failed to register a qualifi- in somebody else, for example, in a co-operative cation which he or she possesses unless that per- cannot do it. This has been the tradition up to son, having been advised of the oversight, refused now. If it were to be made fair, including this to do so. Accordingly, the words which are regis- amendment in the legislation would take care of tered in the register could play an important part matters. There has been a good deal of discussion in ensuring that the public has accurate infor- with the various interested parties on the issuing mation available on which to base the choice of of prescriptions and it is a critical area. This is an practitioner. The Minister consulted the Veterin- important amendment. ary Council of Ireland and the Attorney Gen- eral’s office and both were of the view that the Mr. Browne: I refer to amendment No. 13 in amendment is not required. the names of Deputies Naughten and Crawford. The Minister, Deputy Coughlan, indicated on Dr. Upton: I will withdraw the amendment. Committee Stage that she did not believe that this amendment was appropriate for this legislation. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. There is separate legislation on animal remedies involving the number of statutory instruments Mr. Naughten: I move amendment No. 13: made under the Animal Remedies Act 1993. On In page 43, line 29, after “medicine” to insert the point at issue, that is, who is to be allowed to the following: prescribe prescription-only veterinary medicines, this is already covered in the Animal Remedies “, including the issue of prescriptions and Regulations 1996 where this function is reserved prescription only medicines,”. to veterinary practitioners. I do not accept the argument put forward by the There are concerns arising from the forth- Minister on Committee Stage for not accepting coming implementation of the new EU legis- the amendment tabled on this matter. The veter- lation, particularly with prescribing. However, as inary profession is strongly lobbying that its prac- the Minister pointed out on Committee Stage, titioners should be the ones who would be this amendment, if accepted, would copperfasten entitled to issue prescription only medicines in in primary legislation the exclusive rights of vet- this area. That is not provided for in the directive erinary practitioners as prescribers — from which on this area that we will receive from Brussels but Deputy Crawford’s remarks on the previous that is the interpretation veterinary surgeons are occasion appear to be the opposite of his objec- putting on it. tive. In any event, given that the question of While veterinary surgeons are seeking to have prescribing falls under the animal remedies legis- the right to write prescriptions and issue medi- lation, I suggest we deal with this matter in that cines, the practice to date has and will continue context. to be that they do not issue the medi- I would have serious concerns if this were to 5 o’clock cines, rather they get their staff to do copperfasten in primary legislation the rights of so. The medicines are given out and veterinarians only to prescribe because I have the prescriptions are written up later. That is had representations from numerous bodies and what happens on a day-to-day basis. If veterinary back bench and Front Bench Deputies on this practitioners want to have the right to issue pre- issue arguing that vets should not be given exclus- scriptions and particular medicines, the practice ive rights. The Minister is quite adamant that if of doing so should be solely a matter for them. I this amendment were accepted, we would be say- do not understand why a person who is qualified ing in effect that vets only can prescribe and that to issue medicines in an animal health store or is not acceptable. in a co-operative cannot issue them because of a change in the regulations while a veterinary prac- Mr. Naughten: I dispute the Minister of State’s titioner can get a person who has no qualifi- interpretation and he is trying to use that argu- cations but simply works under the banner of a ment to muddy the waters. I do not believe that veterinary practitioner to issue veterinary is the situation. Section 57 makes it an offence medicine. for a registered person to employ an unregistered In her response to an amendment on this person to carry out practices that should normally matter on Committee Stage, the Minister said be done by someone who is registered. The acceptance of it would mean that only vets could reality is that prescription-only veterinary medi- issue prescriptions but as the Minister has cines are being issued by the staff of veterinary repeated on numerous occasions, this is not the practitioners. If at some future date intramam- legislation to deal with that matter. That type of maries and other medicines were to be made pre- action should be specified. If it is designated that scription-only, the reality is the vet would not be a vet should issue a particular type of prescrip- around to issue them. A member of his or her tion, he or she should not be able to pass that off staff would do it. Whether it is in this legislation to an unqualified employee to issue the medicine. or in the regulations that are coming forward 1141 Veterinary Practice Bill 2004: 29 June 2005. Report Stage (Resumed) and Final Stage 1142 later in the year, if the issuing of particular medi- This is purely a textual amendment to correct cines is limited to a vet, then it should only be the cross-reference errors in section 63(5) and there vet who issues them and not his or her staff. Some is no change of substance involved. of the vets are looking for the powers to issue medicines but do not want to deal with the practi- Question put and agreed to. calities involved in the day-to-day issuing of them. That is the reason for the amendment. I accept Mr. Browne: I move amendment No. 17: what the Minister of State is saying. I ask him to In page 47, line 39, to delete “subparagraphs ensure that this anomaly is addressed when the (i) and (ii)” and substitute “subparagraph (i)”. animal remedies regulations are being dealt with because it is imperative that the system is not abused. I hope that the list available to vets is Question put and agreed to. extremely limited and reduced from what it is at present. On the issue being discussed, if a vet is Mr. Browne: I move amendment No. 18: required, then it should only be a vet. In page 47, lines 41 and 42, to delete “subpa- ragraph (iii)” and substitute “subparagraph Dr. Upton: I agree with Deputy Naughten’s (ii)”. interpretation. What the amendment does by including this phrase is to state clearly that the vet must be the person to issue prescription-only Question put and agreed to. medicines in this particular context. The other issue is one that must be debated separately, but Acting Chairman: Amendments Nos. 19, 20 to include the amendment does not mean that and 21 are related and will be discussed together only vets may issue those prescriptions. That is by agreement. not what is intended. However, if the current situation in practice is that people who are non- Dr. Upton: I move amendment No. 19: veterinarians issue prescriptions and other people In page 64, line 14, to delete “triable”. are precluded from so doing, then it is fair that this part of the amendment should be included in We would like the word, “triable”, removed and the legislation. substituted by “which, in the opinion of the Council, would have been appropriate for trial”. Mr. Browne: Under the animal remedies regu- We discussed this on Committee Stage and the section as it stands is very broad. There is a con- lations it is specifically required that a vet should tradiction between the side note, “where persons write prescriptions. It is an offence if others do it. convicted on indictment of an offence”, and the I assure the Deputies that under the legislation text which refers to persons convicted of an forthcoming in line with EU changes, this part- offence triable on indictment, which includes icular issue will be dealt with. summary offences which are not tried on indict- ment. The danger is that these could include a Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. multitude of very minor offences. The problem with section 83 is that there is no test, criterion Mr. Naughten: I move amendment No. 14: or requirement by which the council should judge In page 44, to delete lines 14 to 20 and substi- whether a person should be struck off the register tute the following: by reason of having been convicted of an offence. The amendment would use the wording set out, “(3) Prior to making a regulation under for example, in section 47(2)(d). That makes it subsection (1) or section 55(5) the Minister clear that merely being convicted of an offence shall seek and obtain the approval of each per se is not sufficient but that the offence should House of the Oireachtas.”. be one which renders it, in the opinion of the council, inappropriate for the person to practise Question, “That the words proposed to be veterinary medicine or nursing, as the case may deleted stand”, put and declared carried. be. It cannot just refer to any offence, rather to one that specifically relates to where it is inappro- Amendment declared lost. priate for the person to practise the profession of veterinary nursing or medicine. Amendment No. 15 not moved. Mr. Naughten: I support Deputy Upton’s Acting Chairman (Mr. Stanton): Amendments amendments. She has made a valid point. An Nos. 16, 17 and 18 are related and will be dis- ambiguity exists within the legislation which cussed together by agreement. should be addressed. It is appropriate that it should be addressed in this manner. A person Mr. Browne: I move amendment No. 16: might be convicted of something that is com- pletely unrelated and may have nothing to do In page 47, line 39, after “under” to insert with how he or she practises as a veterinary prac- “clauses (I) and (II) of”. titioner. While it may have no implications for 1143 Veterinary Practice Bill 2004: 29 June 2005. Report Stage (Resumed) and Final Stage 1144

[Mr. Naughten.] Amendment declared lost. practising veterinary medicine, it seems that the council’s hands will be tied in this regard. Dr. Upton: I move amendment No. 21: In page 64, line 17, after “may” to insert Mr. Browne: Following the raising of these “having regard to section 47(2)(d)”. issues by Deputy Upton on Committee Stage, the Minister undertook to return to this matter again when the legislation came back into the House. Amendment put and declared lost. She has given further consideration to it and had consultations with the Office of the Attorney Acting Chairman: Amendments Nos. 22, 23 General. She believes the Bill as drafted strikes and 24 are related and may be discussed together. the correct balance. An example by way of illus- tration is a practitioner who steals \500 from a Mr. Naughten: I move amendment No. 22: client. Such an offence could be tried in the Dis- In page 67, to delete lines 38 and 39. trict or Circuit Court. However, if proceeded with in the lower court, this should not of itself prevent The purpose of the amendments is to address an the council from looking into the matter since, anomaly in the Bill. Under the legislation as taken in context, it is a serious matter. The cur- framed, the Minister of State, a veterinary prac- rent provision does nothing more than give the titioner, surgeon, schoolteacher or any other pro- option to the council to proceed. If, having con- fessional may cross the road to help out a neigh- sidered the matter, the council decides to do so, bour if one of his ewes is in difficulty lambing. A the normal procedures will kick in, including a veterinary nurse is the only person who is pro- full right of appeal to the High Court. hibited from assisting a neighbour in such circum- While I fully understand the concern for the stances. He or she may carry out a procedure rights of the accused underpinning the amend- such as pulling a lamb on his or her own farm, ment, balance is required. I emphasise that this is provided he or she is a farmer. Under the word- a “may” provision and, as such, does not imply ing of the current provision and the definition of that a person will be automatically struck off a body cavity, once a veterinary nurse assists because of such conviction. The council will be another person by putting his or her arm into a required to examine the matter thoroughly and body cavity to try to pull a lamb, he or she is reach a view on whether the person’s ability to committing an offence for which he or she may practise has been compromised and whether the be struck off the register. profession might be damaged by virtue of the per- The House will be told it will be possible to son remaining registered. For this reason, I turn a blind eye to this provision and the circum- remain of the view that a reasonable balance has stances I describe will not arise. Human nature been struck and, in light of the Minister’s consul- being as it is, it is certain that at some point an tation with the Office of the Attorney General, it elderly man living in a rural area who has a ewe is not proposed to accept the amendments. in difficulty and cannot reach a vet will knock on a neighbour’s door to ask for help. If his neigh- Dr. Upton: I disagree with the Minister of bour is a veterinary nurse, she will no longer be State’s assertion. Far be it for me to enter into a considered a farmer the moment she leaves her dispute with the Attorney General, but it strikes premises to carry out the procedure. Instead, she me that the words “appropriate for trial”, which will be considered a veterinary nurse and, as such, would be inserted by the amendment, take is prohibited under the legislation from carrying account of the example. out the procedure. This unfair anomaly must be addressed and amendment proposes to do so. I Mr. Browne: Having consulted the Office of ask the Minister of State to accept it. the Attorney General, the Minister believes the Dr. Upton: I support the amendment. The pro- amendment is not necessary and has advised as vision, as defined, creates an anomaly in that a such. qualified veterinary nurse who carries out a minor medical procedure or surgery in a personal Question, “That the words proposed to be capacity could be at risk of placing himself or her- deleted stand”, put and declared carried. self outside the law. Amendment declared lost. Mr. Browne: Deputies Naughten and Crawford have again proposed amendments covering the Dr. Upton: I move amendment No. 20: carrying out by veterinary nurses of minor medi- In page 64, line 16, to delete “triable” and cal or surgical procedures. The effect of these substitute the following: amendments would be that ministerial regu- lations would be required before nurses could “which, in the opinion of the Council, would become active in this area. When this matter was have been appropriate for trial”. discussed on Committee Stage, the Minister drew attention to the amendment she had agreed in the Question, “That the words proposed to be Seanad by which nurses would be permitted to deleted stand”, put and declared carried. carry out functions of this type on the direction 1145 Veterinary Practice Bill 2004: 29 June 2005. Report Stage (Resumed) and Final Stage 1146 of a veterinary practitioner. She also pointed out “or a procedure under section 55 under the that the Bill provides for a definition of the word direction of a veterinary practitioner”. “minor” in the context of medical or surgical pro- cedures. In light of this and given that we are not Amendment put and declared lost. adopting a similar approach in respect of other tasks a nurse may carry out on the direction of a Acting Chairman: Amendments Nos. 25 and 26 veterinary practitioner, it is not necessary to are related and they will be discussed together. provide for ministerial regulation-making powers in this sole instance. Accordingly, I do not pro- Mr. Naughten: I move amendment No. 25: pose to accept the amendments. In page 68, to delete lines 42 to 44 and in Mr. Naughten: Does the Minister of State page 69, to delete lines 1 to 4 and substitute accept that the question of body cavity creates a the following: major anomaly in the system? We must all live in “(5) Prior to making a regulation under the real world in which we will experience subsection (1) the Minister shall seek and increasing difficulty securing sufficient veterinary obtain the approval of each House of the practitioners to service rural areas. The majority Oireachtas.”. of veterinary practitioners who complete their This has been discussed ad infinitum. training will move into small animal practice. In addition, elderly people who have stuck to the Question, “That the words proposed to be land and may not have proper procedures or deleted stand”, put and declared carried. equipment or the required housing will call on neighbours for assistance, as people have done Amendment declared lost. for generations. Under the legislation as framed, if the neighbour is a veterinary nurse, he or she Mr. Naughten: I move amendment No. 26: can be struck off the register for providing such assistance. This is wrong and the section must In page 76, to delete lines 36 to 42 and substi- include provision to cover genuine emergencies. tute the following: Animal husbandry issues and human nature must “(3) Prior to making a regulation under be considered. I ask the Minister of State to this section or section 102 the Minister shall ensure that if a veterinary nurse acts as a good seek and obtain the approval of each House samaritan, he or she will not jeopardise his or of the Oireachtas.”. her career. Question, “That the words proposed to be Mr. Browne: The Minister has considered this deleted stand”, put and declared carried. issue since Committee Stage. The Bill defines cer- tain functions which may only be performed by a Amendment declared lost. veterinary practitioner, while all other functions may be undertaken by a veterinary practitioner, Mr. Browne: I move amendment No. 27: veterinary nurse or layperson. The Minister is satisfied, particularly following her acceptance of In page 78, line 11, to delete “Notwithstand- amendments in the Seanad which further clarified ing section 109, where” and substitute the position, that the section is adequate to meet “Where”. the requirements outlined by Deputy Naughten. This is purely a technical amendment which arises Question, “That the words proposed to be from the amendments made to this and related deleted stand”, put and declared carried. sections on Committee Stage. Arising from the earlier amendments, the reference “Notwith- Amendment declared lost. standing section 109” in paragraph (i) of section 107 is redundant and, on the advice of the Office Mr. Naughten: I move amendment No. 23: of the Attorney General, can be deleted.

In page 67, after line 43, to insert the Amendment agreed to. following: “(3) The Minister may, with the approval Dr. Upton: I move amendment No. 28: of each House of the Oireachtas, by regu- In page 89, between lines 6 and 7, to insert lation prescribe the minor medical pro- the following: cedures and minor surgery which may be car- ried out by a veterinary nurse.”. “(3) Where an authorised officer takes possession of or removes from the premises for examination and analysis, any animal Amendment put and declared lost. pursuant to subsection (2)(h) which is not the property of the registered person con- Mr. Naughten: I move amendment No. 24: cerned, then— In page 68, line 4, after “relates)” to insert (a) the authorised officer shall take the following: reasonable steps to notify the owner of the 1147 Veterinary Practice Bill 2004: 29 June 2005. Report Stage (Resumed) and Final Stage 1148

[Dr. Upton.] gations by authorised officers of the council at animal of such seizure or removal, within veterinary premises will be carried out under a a reasonable time after taking possession search warrant. of or removing the animal, save where it is Amendment No. 28 deals with the seizure of not possible to identify the owner notwith- animals in the context of investigations. The standing reasonable diligence, Minister explained on Committee Stage that she (b) where the owner so requests, the could not accept this having taken into account authorised officer shall return the animal the legal advice of the Attorney General’s office. to the possession of the owner unless there She has since given the matter further consider- are reasonable grounds to believe that the ation and, where authorised officers of the owner is responsible for serious ill-treat- council seize animals belonging to a third party, ment or neglect of the animal, and they will be assumed to take on a duty of care for the animals and it is reasonable to assume they (c) where an animal is returned to its would inform the owner. It is not, however, owner following seizure or removal under appropriate to cover such procedural matters in this section, the subsequent production of primary legislation. the animal in proceedings (including dis- There are also concerns about paragraph (b) ciplinary proceedings) under this Act shall of the amendment where there would be a more not be required, and the production of specific difficulty. There may be cases other than photographic or scientific evidence regard- potential ill treatment where it would not be pos- ing the condition of the animal shall be sible or appropriate to return animals to the sufficient in any such proceedings.”. owner. The animals may have been given banned The Minister agreed on Committee Stage that she drugs requiring their removal from the food would look at this amendment. It would protect chain. Bearing in mind the substantial amend- the property rights of the owners of animals on ment which the Minister accepted on Committee the premises that are raided by authorised Stage on veterinary premises, the correct balance officers. has been struck and, accordingly, we do not pro- There is no difficulty with the authorised pose to accept the amendment. officer seizing the property of the vet because it is intended the legislation will provide for that. It Dr. Upton: This amendment would protect the is important, however, that any third party who is rights of the owner. The Minister of State made a client of the vet and whose animal is in the sur- assumptions in his response, which is not always gery at the time is protected. best practice legally. Significant issues arose in The first part of the amendment states that the the recent past related to the seizure of animals authorised officer is not required to get per- and the right of people to enter premises. That is mission from the owners in advance but must why the rights of owners should be particularly notify them after the event. That is reasonable well protected in the legislation. I accept that if and practical. It is then up to the owner to request banned drugs are present, it would not be reason- the return of the animal and if that request is able or practical to return the animals to the made, the animal should be returned unless the owner but where there are no grounds for sus- owner is going to mistreat it. pecting ill treatment of the animal, it would make When the animal is returned, production of the sense that the owner would be informed and the animal in court or before the veterinary council animal returned. It is important primarily from is not required and scientific evidence is satisfac- the point of view of protecting the rights of the tory. It might be practical to bring a Manx cat but owner of the animal. it might not be best practice to bring a Friesian cow to a court or sitting of the Veterinary Mr. Naughten: Reality can be very different Council. from what is envisaged in legislation. The Mini- ster of State is making many assumptions and Mr. Naughten: I agree with Deputy Upton, people know that assumptions in previous legis- particularly on her last point. Whatever about lation did not apply when it came to implemen- bringing in a Friesian cow, I can imagine trying to tation. I ask the Minister of State to reconsider bring in a Limousin bull — it would cause severe the amendment. difficulty. It is fair that an unrelated third party who has an animal on the premises should be Mr. Browne: I discussed all the amendments given proper notification. The amendment is with the Minister and she was anxious that I balanced. It would protect the inspectors who would make Deputy Upton aware that she had might have to remove animals and protect the considered this amendment seriously and dis- rights of the owners of the animals, particularly cussed it with the Office of the Attorney General, animals as valuable as a Limousin bull. but found that she could not accept it. It would be difficult to frame legislation where banned drugs Mr. Browne: Arising from concerns expressed might be involved and she is not prepared to in both Houses, the Minister for Agriculture and accept the amendment. Food, Deputy Coughlan, agreed to substantial amendments to this section under which investi- Amendment put and declared lost. 1149 International Interests in Mobile Equipment (Cape 29 June 2005. Town Convention) Bill 2005: Second Stage 1150

Bill, as amended, received for final con- are vast improvements. The legislation was over- sideration. due. This is a complex area and much work remains to be done in the area of animal health. Question proposed: “That the Bill do now I thank everyone involved for their co-operation pass.” with the Bill.

Minister of State at the Department of Agri- Question put and agreed to. culture and Food (Mr. Browne): I thank Deputies Upton and Naughten in particular for their con- tributions on the Bill. I was here on Second Stage International Interests in Mobile Equipment of the Bill and I know they made important (Cape Town Convention) Bill 2005 [Seanad]: suggestions on how the Bill could be improved. Second Stage. The Minister for Agriculture and Food acted on Minister for Transport (Mr. Cullen): I move: many of the proposals put forward by Deputies “That the Bill be now read a Second Time.” on all sides of the House. I thank them for their The purpose of the Cape Town Convention is co-operation and support. There were 104 to make it easier to finance the purchase of air- amendments to the Bill, which was a significant craft. There are two parts to the convention. The number. I thank all Deputies, particularly the convention itself provides a general framework Front Bench Members, Deputies Naughten and for an international legal basis for financing Upton. I thank the officials from the Department moveable assets. It is accompanied by a protocol of Agriculture and Food. containing more specific arrangements for air- craft assets. It is envisaged other protocols will be Mr. Naughten: I endorse what the Minister of developed to deal with railway rolling stock and State at the Department of Agriculture and Food, space assets, but these are not dealt with in the Deputy Browne, has said. I thank him and the Bill. The Schedules contain the text of the con- Minister for Agriculture and Food, Deputy vention and of the protocol relating to aircraft Coughlan, for their co-operation with the Bill. I objects. For convenience, when I refer to the con- also thank the departmental officials who did an vention, I will also be referring to the aircraft excellent job with an extremely complex Bill. protocol. There was a significant amount of lobbying Aircraft are expensive items, even when regarding it. bought second hand. It is a rare occasion that an The legislation is dramatically different from airline can afford to acquire additional aircraft that originally published. This is the proper way without borrowing. However, because aircraft that legislation should be brought through the move between countries, it is not easy to borrow Oireachtas. Consultation must take place follow- for an aircraft as for industrial or commercial ing a Bill’s publication. Credit must be given to property. In the case of a building or a plot of the Minister for Agriculture and Food on the land, the bank lending the money for its purchase advice that was provided by her officials. When will always know where the property is situated the legislation went before the Seanad, a number and what law applies in connection with a lease of significant issues were flagged which the Mini- or mortgage on the property. ster took on board. To her credit and that of her officials, when the Bill came before this House — The purpose of the Cape Town Convention is traditionally it can be very difficult to have to create a uniform international legal framework amendments accepted when the Bill is passing for loans and leases for aircraft so an aircraft can through the second House — the Minister was be the asset securing the loan. This framework flexible in accepting reasonable amendments. will provide lending institutions with stability and Credit is due to all involved in this dramatically certainty about their ability to repossess aircraft improved Bill. There will be significant battles in that are subject to loans or leases if the borrower the next couple of months with the animal health fails to make the contractual payments. If, at the Bill where many of the issues raised with the Vet- time of the default on the loan payments, the air- erinary Practice Bill will again be raised. I thank craft concerned is in any country that has ratified all those involved in the enactment of the Bill. the convention, the courts of that country will apply the rules of the convention to determine Dr. Upton: I thank the Minister of State at the who may take possession of the aircraft. By Department of Agriculture and Food, Deputy reducing the risk for lending institutions, the con- Browne, for taking amendments yesterday and vention will enable lending rates to be reduced. today. He has been co-operative in moving the This will obviously have benefits for airlines Bill through the House. The Minister for Agri- and, ultimately, for passengers. It will be of part- culture and Food, Deputy Coughlan, took on icular benefit to the less developed countries board a large number of amendments after the where access to large-scale finance is more diffi- Bill was passed by the Seanad, and that is cult. As a concrete example of this, the US appreciated by all Members of this House. I Government’s Export-Import Bank has offered realise how much work the Department officials reduced interest rates in respect of loans to air- put into this long Bill. There have been significant lines in countries that have ratified the changes since 1931 and we now recognise there convention. 1151 International Interests in Mobile Equipment (Cape 29 June 2005. Town Convention) Bill 2005: Second Stage 1152

[Mr. Cullen.] United States, Pakistan and Oman. Due to An important part of the convention is the Ireland’s long-standing support for this project, creation of the international registry. Its purpose and especially because Aviareto was selected to is to record the existence of loans and leases operate the registry, it is my ambition for Ireland covered by the convention and to establish to be one of the first eight ratifying countries, and priority between them on a first come, first served I am sure the House will support me in this. basis. The registry will operate over the Internet The registry will not take over the role of the on a 24 hour, seven day a week basis. To gain the Irish Aviation Authority for registering the protection of the convention, a loan or lease must nationality of Irish aircraft or regulating aviation be recorded in the registry. If two or more loans safety. It will only be concerned with recording for the same aircraft exist, which is quite com- the existence of leases and loans for aircraft. It mon, the loan registered first will have priority will do so for aircraft throughout the world, not over later registrations. Members of the public, as just for Irish aircraft. When considering the Bill, well as those in the aviation and financing indus- it is important to note there is no obligation to tries, will be able to search the registry to discover use the registry or to make use of the convention. if loans are recorded for any particular aircraft. The Bill will not impose changes on people who Only appropriately authorised users will be able do not wish to take advantage of it. to add or change information in the registry. Aircraft financing involves large sums of A substantial number of the world’s aircraft money. All the parties to a loan or lease will have leasing and financing companies are located in professional legal and financial advisers. Conse- Ireland. In addition to direct employment in quently, we can be satisfied all users of the regis- those firms, their location in Ireland has resulted try and the convention will do so on the basis of in a considerable volume of high-profile work for carefully considered decisions. It is also important Irish legal and accounting firms. My Department to note the convention will not affect the status has supported this project for several years. At an of financial interests where the parties choose not early stage we made it clear we were anxious to to register them. It will not affect cases where the have the registry located in Ireland to underscore financial interest was created before the conven- our long-standing commitment to international tion comes into force in the relevant country, aviation and to support aircraft financing activity even if the interest is subsequently included in in Ireland. My Department participated in the the registry. preparatory work leading up to the diplomatic This is a short Bill. Most of the text is contained conference in Cape Town in November 2001 in the Schedules, containing the convention and where the convention was adopted. protocol. Sections 1 to 3, inclusive, contain stan- With the valuable assistance of senior Land dard provisions in legislation such as the Short Registry officials, my Department contributed to Title, purpose of the Act and interpretations. the work of the international registry task force, Section 4 provides that the convention and proto- established to define the role and operation of col will have the force of law in Ireland. The con- the registry. One meeting of the task force was vention and protocol will only apply where held in Dublin Castle in January 2000. It was people have chosen to take advantage of it. decided at an early stage that a competition Section 5 empowers the Government to make would be held to select the operator of the regis- various declarations that are permitted under the try to ensure its efficient operation. It was held convention and protocol. These allow a certain by the International Civil Aviation Organisation amount of tailoring to take account of national in the first half of 2004. I was delighted when an circumstances. As the convention has been for- Irish company, Aviareto, was unanimously selec- mulated in a way that closely reflects common ted as the winner at an international conference law legal systems, such as we have in Ireland, the in Montreal in May last year. Other bids came declarations are primarily for the benefit of coun- from Canada, Singapore and Spain. tries with other legal systems. Aviareto is a small PPP project between my Section 6 contains standard provisions in con- Department and SITA, a major international nection with making orders, such as the inclusion company owned by over 700 aviation companies of consequential provisions and specification of worldwide. It is the world’s leading provider of when an order takes effect. Section 7 specifies global information and telecommunications sol- that the High Court is the appropriate court. utions to the air transport and related industries. Under the convention, disputes involving the It has offices in Letterkenny and Dublin, registry must be heard in the Irish courts because employing 60 people in Ireland. The company the registry is based here. recently announced the expansion of its activities Section 8 requires courts to take notice of the in Letterkenny, which will employ more than 120 convention and protocol. Section 9 requires that additional staff. Aviareto will be a small proceedings for damages must take account of employer with probably fewer than ten staff and compliance with the relevant articles of the con- will be based at SITA’s Du´ n Laoghaire offices. vention. Because the registry will be a computer- The convention will come into force when it based system, it is important for users to comply has been ratified or acceded to by eight countries. with its requirements if they wish to have its pro- So far, there have been six ratifications and tection. It was never intended that the registry accessions by Panama, Ethiopia, Nigeria, the would have responsibility for checking the quality 1153 International Interests in Mobile Equipment (Cape 29 June 2005. Town Convention) Bill 2005: Second Stage 1154 or accuracy of the information placed in the data- simply withdrawn from that market. However base, which is the responsibility of the users. The possibly perversely, alongside that uncertainty registry will be responsible to ensure that no the world is becoming increasingly dependant on errors are introduced while the data is stored in aviation. At the same time increased globalisation the database. and the changing axis of the world economy Section 10 empowers the Minister to subscribe towards Asia mean that everyone, including for shares in the registry company, Aviareto, to Ireland, needs certain, affordable and easier an amount not exceeding \40,000. The Minister’s access to safe skies. It is essential for Ireland as shareholding will be an important indication of an island country both to have that kind of access Irish support for the convention and protocol as and certainty itself and that it is available inter- well as the registry company. Section 11 prohibits nationally to the people with whom we hope to a court from making an order that would prevent trade and do business. I welcome the proposed the registry from providing the services pre- incorporation of the Cape Town Convention into scribed by the convention and protocol. This Irish law as we must welcome anything that section does not prevent anyone from pursuing a brings certainty and predictability to such a high- claim for damages against the registrar. However stakes sector which is so subject to fluctuation, it is important to ensure that a dispute with one natural disaster and as we saw from the 9/11 party cannot affect the operation of the registry attacks, to the evil machinations of Man. for the benefit of others. As the Minister stated, the main objectives of Sections 12 to 14 are standard provisions per- the convention are to bring about efficient financ- taining to orders including the laying of orders ing of aircraft and engines by promoting uniform- before the Oireachtas and the usual opportunity ity of contract through the protocol as well as pre- for either House to pass a resolution to annul an dictability for those with a security interest in the order. Section 15 is a standard provision in asset concerned. This will bring a win-win respect of the Minister’s expenses under the Act situation. It means higher sales for manufacturers when enacted. Section 16 inserts standard pro- as financing becomes easier. It means easier visions into the Act that implements the Montreal access for emerging economies to such finance, as Convention pertaining to the making of orders the level of risk for them — usually it is their under that Act. These include the laying of orders Government — is reduced. It means reduced made in respect of the Montreal Convention financing costs and enhanced access to different before the Oireachtas and providing for possible types and sources of funding for airlines. More- annulment by either House. Because of a dead- over, younger fleets mean that greater fuel line to enact that Act before the expansion of the efficiencies are available to such airlines. In European Union on 1 May 2004, it was not pos- sible to include these amendments before it was addition, this benefits passengers, in reduced air enacted. fares, improvements in an increased flow of services as well as more routes. It also increases This convention represents an important and welcome step forward in the legal framework safety for passengers because it means fleet connected with aviation finance and having the replacement is made much easier, so one has a international registry located in Ireland is a great younger, and consequently a safer fleet. achievement. I congratulate all those involved in It also brings benefits for Governments, in that process and I commend the Bill to the particular for developing countries, but also in House. developed countries where the national airline fleet purchases have been funded or backed by Ms O. Mitchell: I welcome this Bill to the Government guarantees, as the greater degree of House. The Minister is aware that I inquired as certainty about the enforcement of rights will to its status a number of times as I too was bring lower costs for them. Even for Govern- anxious that it would come before the House ments such as our own, which is contemplating before it rose and would be transposed into Irish privatisation, the risk reduction associated with law. Consequently, I welcome the fact that it has the convention means that other cost-effective being taken this week. On behalf of the Fine Gael sources of finance have opened up to airlines that Party, I am happy to give it my support. might previously have had — I use the word As a result of the 9/11 attacks and reinforced advisedly — the cushion of State-provided fin- by subsequent international events including ris- ance or guarantees. ing fuel prices, the entire aviation sector has been Our own Irish airlines, Aer Lingus and Ryan- subject to a climate of uncertainty, to put it air, are both expanding airlines that plan to mildly. It brings uncertainty for manufacturers, expand their fleet and this legislation comes at financiers, lessors, exporters, importers, airlines the perfect time for them. Both will benefit sig- and for ordinary air passengers. The Air Navi- nificantly from the discounts likely to be offered gation Bill passed by this House last week was a to airlines of ratifying countries. I have read that result and possible manifestation of that uncer- one US bank is offering a 33% premium tainty, whereby the State found itself forced into reduction for aircraft delivered before September a position to provide air carriers with insurance 2005 for ratifying countries. This kind of incentive cover for potential dirty bomb damage, because will be quite common for early participation in the entire commercial insurance business had the protocol. 1155 International Interests in Mobile Equipment (Cape 29 June 2005. Town Convention) Bill 2005: Second Stage 1156

[Ms O. Mitchell.] been made by this Minister and his predecessor Ratification has a particular significance for about the urgency with which Aer Lingus needs Ireland in that the bid by Aviareto to operate the to access capital, yet nobody has managed to put international register was successful. I am unsure a figure on it. We know from the chairman of Aer whether the Minister is aware of the point, but a Lingus that it has had no difficulty in financing condition of the contract was that the winning the replacement of its short-haul fleet. It could bidder would ratify the convention. As the host easily look after the replacement of its long-haul country to the registry, other EU countries have fleet as a State company. There are numerous been looking to Ireland to give the lead and I options, including this one and long-term leasing hope they will now quickly follow Ireland’s arrangements. Aer Lingus would have no diffi- example and transpose the convention into their culty raising loans, for example, and there is own laws. This will ensure a flow of funds to the always the option of State investment in the registry, which obviously needs funds to function company. properly. I again put on record my grave concerns about As the Minister noted, the contract to operate what the Minister proposes to do in regard to the the registry was won against stiff international national airline. There are many key national competition and it is of no small significance to strategic interests which the Minister and the Ireland. It is quite a feather in the cap of this Government, as representatives of the share- company and the stakeholders. Did the Minister holder, should bear in mind in terms of the future state that it was a joint venture company? It is of the national airline. I reiterate my concern not an insignificant achievement and it puts about the direction the Minister is taking as there Ireland on the world aviation map and puts us at is no reason Aer Lingus cannot stay in State the cutting edge of the financing sector of avi- hands. A number of Government spokespersons, ation. Hence, for Ireland and for international particularly the Minister’s predecessor, are partic- aviation, it is a very good day’s work. I am happy ularly disingenuous about the situation in Aer to support this Bill on behalf of Fine Gael. Lingus and the possibilities for the future. I pre- sume we will come back to that when the Mini- Ms Shortall: I welcome this Bill on behalf of ster gets advice from those he proposes to employ the Labour Party and we are happy to facilitate to advise him following the taking of the decision. its speedy passage this evening. The fact that We will return to that matter later in the year. work has been carried out so quickly on this Bill To return to this Bill, I congratulate the Mini- to enable the ratification of the protocol and con- ster’s officials who were involved in the prelimi- vention is a positive development. We welcome nary work and design for this legislation and the the object of the convention in terms of facilitat- international registry. Obviously very impressive ing the easier financing of aircraft purchase work was carried out and the proof of that is the through assets based arrangements and do not fact that Ireland has been unanimously selected wish to do anything to delay that process. There as the winner of the competition organised to sel- are undoubted benefits to Irish airlines in the ect the operator of the registry for the first five speedy passage of this legislation and by signing years. That is undoubtedly a feather in our cap in up to the convention. terms of aviation development. Great credit is At a time when the future of airline travel is due to SITA and the people in the Department based on the low cost model, it is critical that the who brought this about. We have been very suc- EU plays a part in facilitating the purchase of air- cessful in this regard and it will be an important craft, which will enable the various airlines to catalyst in terms of Ireland developing a strong continue to provide a low cost model to travellers role in the financial aspects of the aviation and facilitate easy access to air travel. We can all industry. remember the days when the prices of tickets, As I mentioned, we are very happy to facilitate even to London, were outrageous. We very much the speedy passage of this Bill. However, I hope welcome the developments which have taken the Minister will take on board the small number place in the past 20 years or so. To the fore in of amendments I tabled in good faith and which that was Ryanair to which we all have much to are intended to improve the Bill. I was disap- be grateful in terms of the development of that pointed last week when we dealt with the Air market. It has certainly forced the hand of Aer Navigation and Transport (Indemnities) Bill in Lingus in terms of wising up to the modern airline that I thought the Minister was somewhat churl- market, changing its cost base and developing ish in not accepting an amendment for which he attractive air traffic costs and fares attractive to accepted the need. It seemed he did not want to the public. It was forced into that competitive accept it to avoid the inconvenience of having to situation which has been good and from which we table an amendment and any slight delay. I hope have all benefited. the Minister will be generous and accept some Why is the Minister not prepared to remain of these amendments, the purpose of which is to involved with Aer Lingus? Why has he taken improve this short Bill. I look forward to the such a hard line in terms of the future of the Minister’s generosity in that regard. national airline? This type of asset-based financ- ing is one of several options available to Aer Minister for Transport (Mr. Cullen): I thank Lingus in terms of replacing its fleet. Much has the Deputies for facilitating the Bill and for their 1157 International Interests in Mobile Equipment 29 June 2005. Bill 2005: Committee and Remaining Stages 1158 strong support for it. This is a great win for I tabled this amendment for reasons of clarity. I Ireland on the international stage and it amplifies received this Bill a while ago and when I read the once again the strength of the Irish financial Title I did not think it had anything to do with services sector and the important role of Ireland the Department of Transport. The and Dublin in international finance in general. I 6 o’clock Title is very confusing and would think that was a key element in the international suggest that the Bill had something competition which Ireland won against some to do with mobile telephones. We suggest accept- pretty stiff competition, as the Deputies said. It ance of this amendment to change the Short Title was a surprise to some that Ireland won and there to “This Act may be cited as the Air Navigation was much angst because we did. and Transport (Cape Town Convention on Inter- The convention will reduce the financing costs national Interests in Mobile Equipment) Act for airlines but it certainly will not deal with any 2005”. The existing Title is very misleading and other issues in regard to companies seeking fin- we suggest a Title similar to the Air Navigation ance in terms of trying to lever on assets. One of and Transport (International Conventions) Act the Deputies referred to one bank offering a 33% 2004 be adopted. As the Title stands, an ordinary reduction in terms of rates. We know this is avail- person would think it had something to do with able. I will not, however, rehearse many of the mobile phones. arguments I could put to Deputy Shortall about Aer Lingus. I do not hold an ideological view on Mr. Cullen: It is not appropriate to link the Bill the company. If it were at all possible and if the with the Air Navigation and Transport Act for company could have a realistic future in State two reasons. First, the convention is about finan- hands, I would be the first to support that. No cial matters rather than air services. Second, it is State airline has a future. That fact is accepted. I envisaged that the convention will apply to other had discussions yesterday with trade unions on non-aviation financial matters, including railway that. rolling stock and space assets, for which I was travelling recently and I picked up a additional protocols are being prepared. That is magazine — I think it was The Economist, why the convention refers to mobile equipment although I am not absolutely certain — in which specifically, as the issue is much broader than that the international assessment was dismissive of of air transport, the aspect with which I am deal- what would be left in Europe in terms of airlines, ing today. The Bill does not deal with railway rol- irrespective of sales and so on. It was firmly of ling stock or space assets. Further legislation will the view that the only four airlines left in Europe be needed to apply protocols to such matters. in a short period would be Lufthansa, British Air- The Cape Town Convention was news to me ways, KLM and Air France. It did not see any but everyone in the airline business knows about other airline surviving. it. The convention is not specific to air transport; Aer Lingus is unique in what it has achieved to it covers mobile assets right across the spectrum. date. We must capture what it has achieved and It is also about financing, rather than services and give it life into the future. The Deputy was right so on which are dealt with in other Bills. I do not that it is not about the money. That is one of the propose, therefore, to accept the amendment. issues. The issue is commercial access, working in the markets, decision-making processes etc. I am Ms Shortall: I will not press it. While I take the pleased with the way matters are proceeding and Minister’s point, for the sake of clarity, the Bill people on all sides are up for the challenge. I should refer to mobile assets rather than mobile hope we can clarify some of the questions equipment. Deputies Olivia Mitchell and Shortall raised in respect of the future. We look forward to that. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. I thank the two Deputies for their support for the Bill. Section 1 agreed to.

Question put and agreed to. Section 2 agreed to. SECTION 3. International Interests in Mobile Equipment (Cape Town Convention) Bill 2005 [Seanad]: Acting Chairman (Mr. Sherlock): Amendment Committee and Remaining Stages. Nos. 2, 3 and 5 are related and may be discussed together. NEW SECTION. Ms Shortall: I move amendment No. 1: Ms Shortall: I move amendment No. 2: In page 3, before section 1, but in Part 1, to In page 3, subsection (1), line 28, to delete insert the following new section: “opened for signature” and substitute “1. This Act may be cited as the Air Navi- “done”. gation and Transport (Cape Town Conven- “Done” is the word normally used and is used in tion on International Interests in Mobile both the convention and the protocol. I wonder, Equipment) Act 2005”. therefore, why we are using the strange term “op- 1159 Driver Testing and Standards Authority 29 June 2005. Bill 2004: Second Stage (Resumed) 1160

[Ms Shortall.] SECTION 16. ened for signature”. I would have thought it was more appropriate to use the word “done”. Question proposed: “That section 16 stand part of the Bill.” Mr. Cullen: The wording is taken from the final Act of the diplomatic conference which states, Mr. Cullen: Section 16 which amends the Act “The said Convention and Protocol have been dealing with the Montreal Convention is in opened for signature at Cape Town this day”. As response to a request for an amendment by there is no time limit after which states may not Deputy Shortall. I am not hard all the time. accede to the convention, it is not clear when the convention and protocol could be said to be done. Ms Shortall: I am bowled over by the Mini- A contract can be said to be done when all rel- ster’s generosity. evant parties have signed it but in this case parties will continue to add their signatures to it. That is Mr. Cullen: I will try to take some credit. There the reason we have inserted the phrase in the Bill. was an acceptance at the time that the Act should be amended. Ms Shortall: I have not seen that done before. Question put and agreed to. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Schedules 1 and 2 agreed to. Amendment No. 3 not moved. Amendment No. 5 not moved. Section 3 agreed to. Title agreed to. Sections 4 to 10, inclusive, agreed to. Bill reported without amendment and received SECTION 11. for final consideration.

Ms Shortall: I move amendment No. 4: Question proposed: “That the Bill do now pass.” In page 6, line 21, to delete “A” and substi- tute the following: Ms O. Mitchell: I thank the Minister for bring- “The Registrar shall be designated under ing the legislation before us so speedily and am section 40 of the Diplomatic Relations and very relieved it has been passed before the House Immunities Act 1967 and accordingly a”. rises for the summer. I thank the officials for their briefings and work on an extremely complicated This deals with protection of the operations of Bill. the international registry. This section was quer- ied in the Seanad and the response was not Ms Shortall: I also congratulate the Minister entirely satisfactory. The purpose of the amend- and his officials. ment is to ensure the registrar would be able to function with all the proper protections and Mr. Cullen: In keeping with the collegiate immunities available under the Diplomatic approach, I thank everyone for their help in get- Relations and Immunities Act 1967 which I sug- ting the Bill through, including the officials. I am gest should be extended to cover the registrar. sure this will prove to have been a good day for the aviation sector. Mr. Cullen: It is not intended to give the regis- trar diplomatic status. The registrar is a company Question put and agreed to. with a contract with the International Civil Avi- ation Organisation for the purpose of carrying out functions under the convention which specifi- Driver Testing and Standards Authority Bill cally allows the registrar to be sued for negli- 2004: Second Stage (Resumed). gence. The purpose of section 11 is to prevent a court from making an order at the request of one Question again proposed: “That the Bill be aggrieved party that would prevent the registrar now read a Second Time.” from continuing to provide service for all others. Acting Chairman: Deputy Healy was in pos- In other words, if one airline company was session but is not in the House to resume his involved in a dispute with the registrar and speech. I do not know who the next speaker is. decided to sue, it would not be able to obtain an injunction to stop business being carried out with Dr. Devins: I will speak. other airlines. Acting Chairman: Ar aghaidh leat. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Dr. Devins: Go raibh maith agat. Section 11 agreed to. Ms O. Mitchell: I am not sure who was in Sections 12 to 15, inclusive, agreed to. possession. 1161 Driver Testing and Standards Authority 29 June 2005. Bill 2004: Second Stage (Resumed) 1162

Acting Chairman: Deputy Healy was in learn to drive before undertaking the test, but in possession. the industry to which they turn anyone can set up a business without there being a check on his or Ms O. Mitchell: Does it move to the Govern- her qualifications. ment side now? I stress that most instructors are eminently qualified, having undergone training to reach the Acting Chairman: I presume so. As people requisite level of competence and that a register were slow to offer, I called Deputy Devins. exists on which more than three quarters of instructors are listed. The register has been com- Ms O. Mitchell: Go ahead. piled with funding from the Department of Transport and attained ISO 9001 accreditation. Dr. Devins: I am delighted to have the oppor- To become a registered person, it is necessary for tunity to speak on the Bill designed to establish a an instructor to demonstrate that he or she has driver testing and standards authority. I welcome attained a certain level of proficiency in instruc- the fact that the new authority will be based in tion. I suggest to the Minister that one of the first Ballina where the headquarters of the existing functions of the new authority should be to regu- driver testing service is located. While Ballina is larise the position of driving instructors to allow not in my constituency, it is on its border and I members of the public to have confidence that am sure many in Sligo-Leitrim as well as Mayo their tuition is being provided by a fully approved will be delighted at the location of the new auth- person. I welcome the Minister’s commitment to ority. The decision to locate such an important allowing existing instructors who can show that authority in the west of Ireland is another they are bona fide operators to continue to teach example of the Government’s commitment to the before undergoing the appropriate competency retention and development of life outside Dublin. tests. Since the driving test was first introduced in To undergo a test a driver must be familiar 1964, more than 2.4 million tests have been car- with the driving of a car. As this can only be ried out. Driving tests are conducted to ensure achieved through repeated practice and instruc- that each user of a motor vehicle has attained an tion, it is necessary to provide for provisional appropriate level of competency, which is of criti- driving licences. Considerable media attention cal importance at a time in which approximately has focused on provisionally licensed drivers and one person is killed on our roads each day. It is their rate of involvement in fatal accidents. Some essential that those who use motor vehicles are commentators have stated the holders of pro- qualified to drive them. The test is the first step visional licences are responsible for the deaths of in the process. at least 10% of those who die on Irish roads, The increase in the number of cars on the road while others have suggested the real figure may has been matched by an increase in applications be as high as 20%. It is often forgotten in this for tests. There are currently in excess of 120,000 debate that before an applicant is granted a pro- applications for tests on file with the result that visional licence, he or she must undergo the the- the waiting time is now approximately 38 weeks. ory test introduced in 2001. The test consists of While there has been some reduction in waiting computerised questions with multiple-choice times, 38 weeks is still far too long. I welcome the answers. Minister’s announcement that the Bill is a first It might be possible to include in the theory step in a process to reduce waiting times still test a driving simulation similar to those that fea- further. People should not have to wait for ture in many computer games to examine the between 30 and 38 weeks to undergo a test which ability of a test applicant before he or she obtains is why we must aim to ensure that applicants can a provisional licence. A simulation test might pre- be confident of taking tests within a couple of pare an applicant for the process of driving a car. weeks of applying. It will be the duty of the new Likewise, the requirement by a provisional authority to ensure a proper service is available licence holder to display the letter “P” should be to members of the public within a reasonable rigorously enforced. This will ensure other motor- time of applying for a test. ists understand that an inexperienced driver is The issue of what constitutes a driving test has driving a car. However, at the end of the day, received a great deal of attention in the media. nothing beats the presence of an experienced Before I consider the contents of the test, instructor with a learner driver in a car. however, I will discuss preparation for it. It is cur- While I recognise that new and more involved rently the case that any person may operate as a questions must be asked of drivers as to how the driving instructor provided he or she has a full mechanics of the motor vehicle operates, the driving licence. As the Minister has already reality is that most, if not all, modern cars have a stated, driving instructors are not currently very comprehensive console which indicates if required to register, in which context, like many such things as oil or brakes need to be changed. other Members, I have been approached by A frequent requirement of drivers is to have the people working in the industry. It is ludicrous that ability to change a tyre, yet this is not tested in a there are no regulations in place to require driv- practical manner by the current test. I suggest ing instructors to establish their bona fides. that a more practical approach to new elements Members of the public approach instructors to of the driving test might be of longer term 1163 Driver Testing and Standards Authority 29 June 2005. Bill 2004: Second Stage (Resumed) 1164

[Dr. Devins.] that must be learned early. Young people do not benefit. I welcome the Bill and commend it to understand how powerful those machines are and the House. how they are capable of inflicting great damage and loss of life if not treated with the caution and Mr. Hayes: I welcome the opportunity to say a respect they deserve. Such matters must be few words on this very important Bill. Road understood from the start not learned the hard safety is a key concern of everybody, as it should way, as happens with so many young people and be. The carnage on our roads must be tackled their families. urgently. Almost every year the number of road Teachers are the best people to communicate traffic fatalities increases. In 2004, 379 people with young people on driving safety. Transition were killed on our roads, an increase of 34 victims year would be an ideal time to teach young compared to the previous year. In the past dec- people about driving skills, its responsibilities and ade, 5,000 people have lost their lives on our the consequences of careless driving. This would roads. Road traffic accidents leave their mark on be an ideal opportunity for young people in rural families and communities. The community in and urban areas to learn this life skill. I often which an accident takes place is also affected. observe leaving certificate students driving to A substantial number of people have already school in their parent’s cars. Transition year lost their lives on our roads this year. In many would provide an ideal opportunity for young cases, the reason for the accidents related to the people to learn driving. condition of the roads. Poor surface is an urgent The long waiting lists for driving tests adds to issue and the quality of national primary roads the problem. It is possible to drive for up to five leaves much to be desired. Potholes, dangerous years on most roads in Ireland without having to bends, temporary traffic lights, and gridlocked sit a test. When a responsible young person traffic, coming into small towns and villages gives chooses to sit a test he or she can be left waiting the illusion that one could not possibly be on a for up to a year in most cases. In Clonmel, for main road in one of the wealthiest states in the instance, the waiting period for a driving test is world. It is shocking that road users are expected 53 weeks. The driving test centre in my constitu- to tolerate these deplorable conditions. ency in Tipperary town is slightly better at 51 Poor signage is also a serious problem. This weeks. Constituents contact me every week of the week I received several complaints about drivers year looking for their driving tests to be going in the wrong direction around a round- expedited, as in many cases it is required for their about outside Cashel, which only opened late last work. This is a deplorable situation. I commend year, because the signage is so confusing. Signs the people involved in driving test centres for are supposed to help motorists not confuse them their courtesy at all times. The waiting time for and lead them into potentially life threatening driving tests must be improved. driving errors yet this is what often happens. It Many people are put off sitting their driving is incumbent on the Department of Transport to test sooner rather than later because they have ensure road signage is plentiful, helpful and clear. heard stories of friends and acquaintances who Signage has not improved, particularly on smaller failed the test for simple reasons. A learner driver country roads. In fact, it has disimproved in should only fail a test if he or she is deemed unfit recent years. This matter must be addressed to drive. The aim of the tester should not be to urgently by whoever is responsible, local auth- catch the learner driver out on a technicality. orities or the Department of Transport. There is a clear need to ensure that all testers are It is obvious the Government will not tackle in trained to an appropriate standard and to a hurry the deplorable state of our roads. There- implement common testing standards across the fore, it is critical that the drivers on our roads country. Ongoing supervision and quality control have sufficient skills to handle what generally of driving testing is essential. amounts to bad driving conditions. As driver The number of cars on our roads and the tech- error is the main cause of most accidents we must nical nature of our testing system often necessi- move urgently to upskill our drivers. Young tate driving lessons from a qualified instructor. people in particular must be targeted in this con- Lessons are normally sought when the long wait text. We are all aware of the sense of jubilation for a driving test is finally coming to an end rather with which young people drive cars. They are than before an individual starts driving on the convinced they will be able to brake if necessary roads, which would be far more logical. The cost and they enjoy the thrills of travelling at high of driving lessons may contribute to this. Many speeds. Tragically, reckless behaviour often has young people struggle to afford steep insurance grave consequences. premiums and only fork out money for expensive The majority of people now choose to drive driving lessons from a professional instructor and it makes sense for aspects of driving to be when they really need to. This should not be the addressed in second level schools. Driving theory case. Driving lessons should be affordable, partic- and an adequate understanding of the cause of ularly for those driving for the first time. They road accidents, and the consequences of speed- should be the first resort of the learner driver ing, drink driving and so forth should be included rather than the last. The Department of Trans- in second level education. Respect for vehicles, port should examine seriously the possibility of cars, motorbikes, trucks or tractors, is a lesson introducing more affordable driving instruction 1165 Driver Testing and Standards Authority 29 June 2005. Bill 2004: Second Stage (Resumed) 1166 for younger drivers. The possibility of incorporat- roundabout properly. In addition, many of the ing a requirement to take one or two affordable makings on roundabouts are very confusing. driving lessons into the conditions for receiving When the Minister of State is in Cork, he might one’s first provisional licence is worth con- encounter some roundabouts which are such that sidering. one does not know where one is. Some are Our speeding laws are almost laughable. As a extremely dangerous. Road makings need to be regular traveller from County Tipperary to very clear in this regard. Dublin, I note that I am frequently overtaken by Colleagues have spoken about road signs and cars travelling well in excess of the speed limit. the need to ensure they are adequate and located Many fail to slow down when passing through vil- such that motorists are adequately warned that lages and towns. I often wonder how anybody liv- there is a turn-off ahead. Often one finds a sign ing along routes such as that between Dublin and on or beyond a turn-off, which is crazy. Cork manages to cross the road. Let me address another matter concerning There are other anomalies to be considered. As road safety and driving standards. It is very hard I travelled to the Munster hurling final in Cork to drive along a country road if hedgerows are last Sunday, I was amazed by the number of almost meeting at its centre. On the last occasion motorists pulled over by gardaı´. Motorists actu- we spoke on a related Bill I asked the Minister ally believe the road into Cork is a motorway. of State to consider this matter, particularly in the There is a dual carriageway with a wide strip in light of the growth rate of hedgerows at this time the middle and motorists are certainly confused. of year. Pedestrians are forced to walk in the I know of one who was pulled over and told by a middle of the road. Cars are also forced to drive garda while travelling to the match on Sunday in the middle. I know issues arise regarding wild- that the road was causing considerable confusion. life, for example, but it is most important that Motorists do not know the correct speed limit and hedgerows are cut to ensure roads are visible, are driving according to a higher one. especially around towns and because we are The issue of speed limits needs to be addressed. encouraging people to walk and cycle. Changes should be marked clearly. The next time I know many parents who will not let their chil- the Minister of State is travelling to Cork, he dren out on the roads in the countryside because should look—— they are too narrow and the hedgerows are grow- ing out to the middle. Children are not allowed to Mr. Callely: I hope I will very soon. cycle — rightly so — because it is too dangerous. Walkers also have major problems, especially Mr. Hayes: I also hope the Minister of State around towns. The Minister of State should con- will and will enjoy his visit. If he does, he will sider providing for one-way systems near towns readily understand what I am talking about. It whereby some roads could be designated for presents a clear difficulty. cyclists and walkers in consultation with the rel- evant local authorities. Perhaps he will talk to Mr. Callely: I offer my sympathies to Deputy representatives from local authorities and consult Hayes and his county on what David and the boys local people to determine whether this would be did to them last Sunday. possible but it should be considered. We can talk all we like about driving standards Mr. Hayes: They were better on the day. and testing but if the roads are unsafe for various I ask the Minister of State to take into account reasons, the best driver in the world can have an what I have said, particularly in respect of tran- accident. If he or she goes around a corner and sition year programmes and the training of driv- meets a pedestrian or an oncoming car at a point ers. My proposals should be implemented over a on the road where the briars are growing out to period. I welcome the legislation and was glad of the middle, he or she has nowhere to go. the opportunity to say a few words on it. I have two young men at home who are starting to drive. Therefore, I have a vested interest in this Mr. Stanton: I am pleased to make a contri- matter. One is almost 20 years of age and the bution on the Bill and that the Minister of State other is just over 17. Even the smallest of cars with responsibility for driving standards is nowadays are high-powered and can travel at present. It is probably one of the most important high speeds. When I drive with my lads, I repeat- subjects we can discuss in the House. It is a edly tell them to slow down and take it easy. I am matter of life and death and absolutely essential thankful they are beginning to listen. Unfortu- that we all work together to ensure regulations nately, however, many young people do not listen are in place to considerably improve the standard and drive far too fast. of driving. I am very concerned about the fad among The standard of driving in Ireland is appalling. young people of buying older cars and spending People from other countries have said this to me considerable time and money souping them up. If and are flabbergasted at how bad it is. Very often one drives around, especially in my area which is young people are blamed — we are familiar with to be found not too far from that of the Acting the statistics in this regard — but none of us is Chairman, Deputy Sherlock, one will find dough- innocent of driving to a poor standard. For nut shaped marks on the road. People seem to be instance, many do not know how to negotiate a driving at high speed and, on approaching cross- 1167 Driver Testing and Standards Authority 29 June 2005. Bill 2004: Second Stage (Resumed) 1168

[Mr. Stanton.] will promote development and improvement of roads, pulling the handbrake such that the car driving standards and, with regard to this, it may spins and the tyres produce black rings on the make such recommendations to the Minister as it road in the shape of doughnuts. I do not know if considers appropriate. the Minister of State who is very experienced and We should seriously consider the introduction knowledgeable on most matters has ever seen of advanced driving courses, which are crucially them. It is very scary to see drivers engaging in important. I spoke on this matter previously as a this practice. result of speaking to an experienced professional Certain drivers are attaching a device to the driver. He believed he was a good driver until he exhaust pipes of their cars to increase the noise did an advanced driving course and discovered levels. It is quite intimidating to hear such a car that he was not half as good as he thought. When approaching, especially on a narrow road. The professional people from the UK sat with him Minster and the Garda should investigate these and taught him how to drive according to noise emitters. They should be removed and not advanced standards he discovered his mistakes allowed to be used. They have no purpose, and the ways in which he could improve his driv- especially on a souped up car. The noise of cars ing. He was a professional driver and on the road should be kept below a certain level for every- every day but he welcomed the opportunity to do body’s sake. the course. Perhaps the Minister should enter into It is not right that engines are placed in small discussions with insurance companies so that any- cars which are more powerful than the original body who does such a course gets some form of engines. I believe this is illegal, although I stand a reduction. to be corrected. The traffic corps should start examining the engines of suspect cars to deter- Mr. Callely: I am speaking to the insurance mine whether they have been souped up or companies. changed or whether they are much more power- ful than they should be. The purpose of the Bill Mr. Stanton: I welcome that news and urge the is to provide for the establishment of the driver Minister to use his influence, authority and posi- testing and standards authority, which will have tion to get something done. He only has another primary responsibility for the delivery of the year and a half before being turfed out of office. driver testing service. Other functions will include the testing and control of driving instructors and Mr. Callely: I hope I am doing such a good job vehicles. It is important that instructors are prop- that Members will want me to remain. erly trained and registered. They should be taught how to teach people to drive. As a former (Interruptions). teacher, I recognise that teaching is a craft. Some of the current teachers are extremely good and Mr. Stanton: There is interference from Radio others are not. Therefore I welcome the measure. Luxembourg behind me. It is rare for people to The Bill also covers outsourcing, the establish- be taught how to drive at night, on ice or in bad ment of subsidiaries and participation in compan- conditions, which is when most accidents occur. ies, as well as the making of a service agreement Driving instruction must incorporate driving at between the authority and the Minister, which night and in the rain. At this time of the year, will set out the functions and tasks to be carried when days are long, young drivers in particular out and performance targets. The Bill places a think everything is fine. However, it is a com- duty on the authority to promote, develop and pletely different situation in the winter, especially improve driving standards and to conduct its busi- when the hour changes and dusk sets in earlier. ness at all times in a cost effective and efficient It takes time to get used to that. manner, which is to be expected. The authority The Minister of State was a very good driver will receive policy direction from the Minister for when he had to drive himself. Transport and produce an annual report. This is all fairly standard. Mr. Callely: Thank you very much. I welcome this Bill and the establishment of the authority, which will have some control over the Mr. Stanton: He will probably need instruction driver testing system. It will also be charged with when he is no longer in office. the development and improvement of driving standards, including the issuing of driving Mr. Callely: Do not tell the gardaı´. licences, testing of vehicles and regulation of driv- ing instructors. Mr. Stanton: The Bill has been criticised by Unfortunately, except for sections 4 and 6, the consultants Farrell Grant Sparks for its limited Bill makes little provision for how all of this will functional remit in its report to the Department. be achieved. Everything else appears to be stan- The report called for centralised responsibility for dard. Sections 4 and 6 are the meat of the Bill and all aspects of road safety, including vehicle and deal with the issuing of driving licences, vehicle driver testing enforcement and road planning, testing, regulation of driving instructors and the within a road safety authority. This wider remit regulation of mechanically propelled vehicles. would offer a more focussed approach to limiting The Bill is vague on what it will do. The authority the causes of road accidents. 1169 Driver Testing and Standards Authority 29 June 2005. Bill 2004: Second Stage (Resumed) 1170

I hope action will be taken to reduce long wait- addressed this serious issue. There were a number ing lists. Currently, more than 100,000 provisional of road accidents in my part of country recently, licence holders are waiting to sit the test. The and it has been suggested that the driver fell average waiting time is ten months and in some asleep at the wheel, crashed the car and was parts of the country it is 14 months. The waiting killed. The Minister of State should raise aware- time in Ireland is far longer than in other Euro- ness by way of television advertisements that tell pean countries. The average waiting time in people that if they feel drowsy while driving, they Northern Ireland is four weeks. A longer waiting should not slap themselves to stay awake, turn on time means a larger proportion of provisional the radio or open the window. Rather they should licence holders on the road and high insurance pull over and put their head down, whether it is premiums for these drivers. With a pass rate of day or night. It can be very hard to stay awake in approximately 50%, many young drivers are the early hours of the morning and the Minister unfairly penalised for holding provisional licences of State should take this on board as a matter when they may be competent drivers. This matter of urgency. must be dealt with and we should have shorter In many European countries not only does an waiting times. A provisional licence holder should individual have to pass a theory and written test, not drive on the roads unless accompanied by a there is also a compulsory requirement to attend fully licensed driver. This is not happening in theory classes beforehand and undertake practi- practice as shown by the figures. Waiting times cal driving lessons with a qualified and registered should be shorter and provisional licence holders instructor before a candidate can attempt a prac- should be accompanied at all times by a fully tical driving test. That should be built into this licensed driver. legislation; that a person would take, for example, Once their test is completed, people consider ten lessons. Until a candidate passes a practical themselves fully-fledged qualified drivers and driving test it should not be legal for him or her think they can put the boot down. The Minister to drive a car, except in the company of a pro- of State should consider the possibility of a plate fessional driving instructor. The Government, in with a “P” indicating probation driver being the national road safety strategy for 2004 to 2006, placed on a car for a period of six months after set a target of reducing road fatalities to less than the test. This would show that the driver has just 300 per annum. In 2004, 325 people lost their lives completed the test and can drive on his or her on the roads. own. However, the newly qualified driver would In addition to tackling speeding and drink driv- know that if he or she went over the speed limit ing, an effective means of reducing the number of he or she would get increased penalty points and fatalities on Irish roads is to engender a respon- this would keep him or her in line somewhat. It sible attitude to driving in drivers from the begin- is important because newly-qualified drivers are ning, by making a certain number of professional inclined to put the boot down. driving lessons mandatory before learner drivers There is a need to incorporate driving instruc- are allowed to drive on the open road, even if tion in secondary schools, particularly transition accompanied by a licensed driver. Once these year. Some people have mentioned having an lessons have been successfully completed, learner area of land close to the school, such as a non- drivers should be encouraged to apply for a driv- public road, for use in training young people to ing test immediately. This would help to cut down handle cars. This is important in terms of con- on the number of provisional licenceholders on trolling standards. Theory and road safety should the road. form a module in transition year, which is the It has also been suggested that the size and time to do it. Most schools have a transition year power of cars driven by younger drivers should programme. I am slow to suggest that schools can be controlled. Furthermore, perhaps the speed at solve every one of society’s problems and that we which such cars can travel should also be con- should overload them. However, this would be a trolled, so that they can only travel at a certain welcome measure. speed. It is possible to do this, I understand, by Along with the issue of driving standards is the inserting a regulator into the engine of the car to matter of driving under the influence of drugs. control speed. Perhaps the Minister of State could let us know Unfortunately, figures from the National of the type of tests that indicate whether a person Roads Authority and the National Safety Council has taken a banned substance, such as cannabis show that driver error was the cause of 81% of or ecstasy, and is now behind the wheel. How is all crashes — both fatal and those resulting in that currently tested and is it effective? What injury — from 1997 to 2002. Male drivers aged statistics exist? I ask for the Minister of State to between 18 and 24 represent the largest group of take this issue seriously and am very interested in those drivers involved in crashes, at 24%. There his response. Otherwise he can communicate the are no figures, I understand — unless the Mini- information to me privately in writing. ster of State has them — to indicate how many The Minister of State is a very good man when of these drivers were provisional licenceholders. it comes to raising public awareness for all types However, the NRA notes that, statistically, those of issue. Perhaps he will do so with regard to the aged between 17 and 24 are 7.7 times more likely issue of drivers getting tired behind the wheel and to be involved in a fatal or serious injury collision. falling asleep late at night. Other countries have Given the age range, we should assume that a 1171 Driver Testing and Standards Authority 29 June 2005. Bill 2004: Second Stage (Resumed) 1172

[Mr. Stanton.] or she should be told straight out that such behav- reasonable proportion of these drivers are pro- iour is wrong, whether that person is a former visional licenceholders or are, at least, less experi- Minister, a family friend or a neighbour. Drink enced drivers. driving is anti-social behaviour and it is not In Ireland, for every mile driven, a 17 year old acceptable. Gross irresponsibility should never be male is seven times more likely to be involved in an option. People who have been involved in an accident than a middle aged man. Research drink driving, who have caused major destruction carried out in the United Kingdom suggests that on our roads, should be very careful. an 18 year old driver is three times as likely to be This is also not a case of kicking someone when involved in an accident as a 48 year old. This he or she is down. It is about telling a person trend is reflected in the road casualty statistics of straight out that he or she was wrong, out of order the National Highway Traffic Safety Admin- and should grow up and accept responsibility. We istration in the United States of America, which all have a duty, as legislators, to lead by example shows that the younger the age limit for driving, and sitting on the fence on such a major public the higher the proportion of casualties in the rel- safety issue is simply not an option. This is not a evant age bracket. A larger proportion of those case of taking the high moral ground. It is about aged 17 are hurt or killed than those aged 18 trying to do the right thing across all sectors of years. society. It is a challenge for us all. Our citizens As I said earlier, the National Safety Council are demanding leadership and a change of hearts notes that the primary cause of death in single and minds. This debate must be part of that pro- vehicle accidents is speeding. Younger males are cess on the question of road safety. more likely to take risks when driving than older, With regard to the detail of the legislation, we more experienced men. I spoke earlier about the see that the purpose of the Bill is to provide for need for practical instruction through pro- the establishment of the Driver Testing and Stan- fessional and fully qualified driving instructors to dards Authority, whose primary responsibility deal with that issue. The fact that anyone can will be the delivery of the driver testing service. offer driving lessons is ludicrous and is an area Other functions relating to the testing and control that needs urgent attention. of drivers, driving instructors and vehicles will be It is not only young drivers who drive danger- transferred to the authority. ously. Older drivers also drive dangerously and I Recently we saw an horrific crash in County urge the Minister to introduce advanced driving Meath and I express my sympathy to all the courses to address that problem. It must be families involved. We need to be very conscious remembered that while we talk about road of safety and, in particular, safety on buses. All deaths, there are also road injuries, in some cases school buses should be inspected in a professional horrific in nature. There are young, chronically ill and objective manner and should be driven by people in hospitals and nursing homes whose competent and professional drivers. Some school lives have been ruined. Families are tragically buses provide examples of good practice regard- affected by a member being injured, possibly ing seat belts and other issues. I would also badly, for life. This is something that we must not encourage the Minister of State to look at the forget — the number of people who are injured. idea that when a school bus stops, all traffic Perhaps the Minister of State would consider around it also stops to allow children to alight in making known how many people are badly a safe manner. This practice is already in oper- injured each year on the roads and not just the ation in the United States and would save lives number of people killed. I wish the Minister of here. State well with this legislation, which is very A number of Deputies have mentioned learner important. drivers. Learner drivers get a bad press. The vast majority that I know — and it has been my Mr. F. McGrath: I welcome the opportunity to experience over the past 20 years — are very speak on the Driver Testing and Standards Auth- careful drivers. Because they are only starting to ority Bill 2004. This is important legislation as drive, they are very safety conscious. In fact, there is a major public safety aspect to it and we many learner drivers are more safety conscious have seen many deaths, injuries and horrific acci- than some of the so-called qualified drivers. It is dents on our roads recently. We all have to be unfair to give learner drivers a bad press because vigilant and responsible when driving. Those in the vast majority of them — I would say more high office must obey the laws of the land on than 90% — never had any accidents. drinking and, particularly, driving when over the On the matter of school buses, a constituent of limit for alcohol. It is simply not acceptable for a mine advised me recently that school buses are former Minister to be involved in a drink-driving dangerous and that not enough inspections are car- case, involving driving down the wrong side of a ried out on them. I ask the Minister of State if motorway. It is not acceptable nor is it under- this is correct. Regarding Bus E´ ireann, is there a standable and the sympathy expressed in some competent examination of all buses, including their quarters amazes me. tyres, engines, brakes and fire safety facilities? Is This is not a personal attack on anyone. It is there a system in place that will allow us to have about straight talking. If someone is out of order, maximum confidence regarding road safety and involved in anti-social behaviour while drunk, he road worthiness? Another constituent of mine has 1173 G8 Summit and Overseas Development Aid: 29 June 2005. Motion (Resumed) 1174 told me that mechanics are sometimes afraid to posal of the G8 group of nations to sign off on safety issues for buses and that senior restrict such cancellation to a list of 18 managers often intervene to provide the sign-off. countries; and Is this correct? I do not know, but it is a serious — that such debt cancellation should not issue that needs to be raised. be accompanied by damaging con- The role of education in road safety and driving ditions which would erode the benefits is important. Education can assist everybody in of cancellation; pursuing road safety in a competent and pro- fessional way. Indeed, many of our primary — that such cancellation should be funded schools do an excellent job in this regard. Road out of additional moneys, supporting safety is already part of the school curriculum and the views of non-governmental organis- many primary school children visit the traffic ations that International Monetary schools, do courses and watch videos on the sub- Fund gold reserves be sold to help fin- ject. I commend the primary school teachers for ance debt cancellation; and their excellent work in this area. — that developed nations move away from Given that the Minister of State is in the operating as both judge and plaintiff in House, I would also like to raise the issue of road relation to heavily indebted poor safety as it relates to the Dublin Port Tunnel. countries; There are issues in this regard about which we must be vigilant, particularly tunnels, fire safety — recognises that debt cancellation is only and the collapse of roofs. We have seen damage part of what is needed to assist heavily done to over 205 homes recently. We have also indebted poor countries and that tar- heard complaints about the roofs and sections of geted and untied aid must continue to the port tunnel. There are safety concerns regard- be given and significantly increased; ing the tunnel. I raise these issues because they — resolves to agree a new target date in are relevant to the debate tonight. view of the Government’s acknowl- edgement that it will not meet its com- Mr. Callely: I invited Deputy McGrath to come mitment to reach 0.7 % of GNP to be and visit the tunnel. devoted to overseas development aid by 2007; Mr. F. McGrath: I received the Minister of State’s invitation, for which I thank him. I went — calls on the Taoiseach to reaffirm to the tunnel last week and had a quick look, but Ireland’s commitment to this target at I will take the Minister of State up on his offer. the forthcoming UN Millennium I raise the question of road safety, school buses Summit; and the use of safety belts. — further recognises the importance of fair trade in bringing about inter- Debate adjourned. national social justice; — demands re-examination of subsidies Private Members’ Business. given to producers in the developed world and the effect of such subsidies ———— on their counterparts in less developed nations; G8 Summit and Overseas Development Aid: — calls on the Government to support a Motion (Resumed). reappraisal of the European Union’s The following motion was moved by Deputy economic partnership agreements with Boyle on Tuesday, 28 June 2005: African, Caribbean and Pacific, ACP, countries in light of serious concerns —ThatDa´il E´ ireann, given the meeting of that they would inhibit rather than pro- the leaders of the G8 countries being mote the economic development of held in Edinburgh, Scotland and given those countries; subsequent meetings being held for the UN Millennium Summit in New York — acknowledges the need to restrict the and meetings of the International Mon- international trade in arms in order to etary Fund and the World Bank in assist conflict resolution and prevent September 2005 and the World Trade the terrible cost in human lives and Organisation ministerial conference in attendant economic costs of such trade; December 2005, calls on the Govern- — calls on the Government to strongly ment through its own policies to assist in support the initiative being taken by the making poverty history and to this end: Government of Finland to bring about an arms trade treaty through the frame- — reaffirms Ireland’s policy of supporting work of the United Nations; and 100% debt cancellation for heavily indebted poor countries, going beyond — resolves that the Government, in the the inadequate, though welcome, pro- upcoming renegotiation of the Kyoto 1175 G8 Summit and Overseas Development Aid: 29 June 2005. Motion (Resumed) 1176

agreement, support a fair distribution of — notes that the Government is strongly carbon allocation on a per capita basis committed to achieving the UN target in view of the increasing convergence of 0.7% for expenditure on ODA and between the issues of environmental that it will take a decision on this in degradation and world poverty, as evi- advance of the UN Millennium Summit denced by the fact that the costs of in September 2005; climate change are being dispro- — acknowledges the need for inter- portionately borne by the world’s poor- national agreements to control the est people. international trade in arms in order to Debate resumed on amendment No. 1: assist conflict resolution and prevent the terrible costs in human lives and To delete all words after “heavily indebted attendant economic costs of such trade; poor countries” in the second paragraph and substitute the following: — calls on the Government to strongly support efforts to bring about an inter- “— welcomes the proposal of the G8 coun- national arms trade treaty; tries to finance 100% cancellation of multilateral debt owed by 18 of the — acknowledges that the Government is world’s poorest countries; committed to a strong rules-based WTO and multilateral trading system as — expresses the strong hope that the G8 being the best way to help developing agreement will be funded out of countries to integrate into the global additional moneys and not through trading system and is working towards diversion of existing funding; a successful outcome to the Doha — calls on the Government to continue development agenda negotiations and Ireland’s long-standing commitment to the sixth ministerial conference of the debt cancellation and urges it to support WTO in December 2005; further initiatives to this end; — confirms that as the negotiations on the — recognises that debt cancellation is only economic partnership agreements move part of what is needed to assist heavily into a more critical phase, it will be indebted poor countries and that tar- important to have close monitoring and geted and untied aid must continue to dialogue between the EU Commission be given and significantly increased; and the Council to ensure that the development focus of EPAs remains a — welcomes the very substantial increases primary concern; and in Ireland’s aid programme, which has grown from \96 million in 1994 to \545 — recognising the increasing convergence million in 2005, which is channelled to between issues of environmental degra- some of the world’s poorest countries dation and world poverty, and in view and which has made Ireland the world’s of the fact that the adverse impacts of ninth largest aid donor on a per capita climate change are and will be dispro- basis; portionately borne by the world’s poor- est people, supports the Government in — welcomes the fact that the Government the upcoming negotiations on global has already committed to expenditure action to tackle climate change after of \1.8 billion on official development 2012 in seeking a fair, equitable and assistance over the years 2005-07; inclusive agreement that will reduce the — notes that Ireland, almost uniquely vulnerability of developing countries among donors, gives all of its aid untied; through reducing global emissions of greenhouse gases and through assisting — notes that the recent report by Action developing countries to access the Aid entitled “Real Aid: An Agenda for resources and expertise required to Making Aid Work” found that Ireland adapt to the adverse effects of climate has one of the highest quality aid prog- change.” rammes among western donors; —(Minister for Foreign Affairs). — notes that at the European Council of Ms O’Donnell: I wish to share time with 16 and 17 June 2005 the Heads of State Deputy Carey. and Government, including Ireland, I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this agreed that the EU member states timely debate. I note the Minister’s lengthy, com- which have not yet reached a level of prehensive and informative contribution to the 0.51% of GNP should reach that level House last night in which he addressed the by 2010; that they should achieve the motion and dealt with all of the cross›cutting 0.7% target by 2015, and that the ten issues which affect the global poor. I fully recog- new member states were set lower nise the comprehensive nature of the motion targets; tabled by the Green Party dealing as it does with 1177 G8 Summit and Overseas Development Aid: 29 June 2005. Motion (Resumed) 1178 issues of aid, arms, trade and the environment, all the work was done and the decision was copper- topics to be addressed at the G8 summit. fastened by a Cabinet decision and announced to However in the time available to me I want to the international community. It was planned; we focus on Ireland’s overseas development aid took the decision in our senses and meant it at programme in the context of our foreign policy. the time. Like it or not — this may be uncomfortable for There is agreement to be found in the motion, those on the Government side — Ireland’s aid as amended, which is to be welcomed. The budget is the dominant issue for public discussion motion calls on the Government to set a new tar- and has been for some time since it became clear get date and an important concession has been that the Government had allowed the target date made in the amended motion. The Government of 2007 to slip. As a former Minister of State with has agreed that a new target will be set before responsibility for this area of policy for five years the Taoiseach attends the Millennium Summit in and as the person who brought the proposal to New York in September. While this is a welcome Cabinet that Ireland should reach the UN target development, there is a question as to what the of 0.7% by 2007 and stood with the Taoiseach in timeframe will be. New York as he announced it to the international The abandonment of the target date of 2007 community, I feel a particular responsibility and has understandably met with genuine criticism. personal disappointment that, for reasons which Whatever appraisal is made of Ireland’s perform- have never been properly explained to the ance in the provision of ODA, it should be fair House, this policy decision has been reversed. as the truth is important in these matters. It is fair Certainty was removed while our intentions were to say, however, the Government has moved left open-ended. Worse still, in some quarters away from meeting the UN target by 2007. That there has been a slow unravelling of the principle is a fair and true statement but regrettable. of reaching the UN target. This doubt will persist However, I will not attempt to justify it, as others among citizens and in the House until a new date have done. I regard it as indefensible as a political is set by the Government. decision and the Government has been rightly The policy decision that Ireland should reach criticised, including by Members on this side of the UN target by 2007 was no ordinary policy the House and members of the Joint Committee initiative made on the hoof or spun by way of a on Foreign Affairs. However, it is also fair to say press release. There were extensive pre-Cabinet Ireland’s aid programme has increased by \387 decision negotiations, arguments and prep- million, from \158 million in 1997 to \545 million arations over a protracted period. The decision today. It is also true that Ireland remains a leader was in accordance with the then programme for among nations of the world in terms of the size Government of the two parties. Moreover and of its per capita contribution to overseas develop- more importantly, it enjoyed the support of all ment aid. parties in the House, the social partners, the Ireland’s aid figures are certainly respectable churches, the trade unions and the business and above the EU average and greater as a per- community. centage of GNP than those of any of the G8 Following the Cabinet decision, there was an countries, as the Minister outlined to the House extensive year long review involving stake- last night. Our focus on the least developed coun- holders, representatives of international organis- tries is commendable, as is our position on debt ations, the Secretaries General of three Depart- cancellation. The fact that all of Ireland’s aid is ments and other eminent persons to put in place untied is to our credit. This does not take away, a comprehensive blueprint to underpin the however, from the political reality that a solemn expansion of the programme. It was approved by commitment made by Ireland to the international the Cabinet. The issues examined included the community and the poor of the world has been geographical spread of the programme, capacity reneged upon. The Taoiseach has stated we are issues, staffing and resource issues, the mix of not alone in this decision. The aid sector is lit- activities in our programme of renown, a review tered with broken promises. Many promises and of our model of aid and a limited range of new undertakings have been dishonoured by others. It policy matters, specifically a focus on HIV and should be remembered that the UN target was AIDS in Africa. set over 30 years ago and remains unreached by We decided to deepen our engagement with all but six countries. Ireland took the conscious Africa, increase the capacity of missionaries and decision to buck that trend as our way of marking NGOs which depend on our resources for their the millennium. It was to be a testament to our excellent work and carefully expand into other humanitarian and civilised values as a nation. We poor African countries on a gradual basis. East cannot now seek cover by hiding with other Timor was chosen as a new priority country. We defaulters. also looked at developing a programme in Viet- The sad political reality is that aid budgets in nam, Laos and Cambodia. every country are the most vulnerable to attack This was all laid out in the review of the aid and plunder to meet competing domestic programme mentioned. I say this not to be demands. That is precisely the reason I, when unhelpful but to make the point to colleagues that Minister of State, argued for and achieved a those who say the decision was unplanned or, in multi-annual financial package and an agreed some way, premature are wide of the mark. All schedule of incremental allocations to bring us to 1179 G8 Summit and Overseas Development Aid: 29 June 2005. Motion (Resumed) 1180

[Ms O’Donnell.] Mr. Carey: I am pleased to speak on this the year 2007, thus liberating the programme motion. I compliment the members of the Green from the annual Estimates wrangle, in which the Party on tabling it. As I said to Deputy Eamon aid budget is pitched against other domestic Ryan earlier, it is very much an omnibus motion priorities. Notwithstanding the agreed prog- but it gives us the opportunity to focus on key ramme, slippage was allowed to happen and our issues. Like Deputy O’Donnell, I too am a aid programme is again enmeshed and competing member of the Foreign Affairs committee and I with legitimate domestic funding priorities. too was one of those people who agreed, on a I welcome the fact that guaranteed increases cross-party basis, to support our commitment to have been agreed for a three period, amounting reach the 0.7% target by 2007. I am disappointed to a total accumulated budget of \1.8 billion. and take no pride in having to stand up here and However, these must be seen as minimum say we have not achieved it. I am not critical of increases and additional funds will have to be the Minister of State with responsibility for over- allocated if a credible advance towards the UN seas development, Deputy Connor Lenihan, who target is to be achieved by a newly set date. is doing a fine job, or of the Minister for Foreign As I said on a previous occasion in the House, Affairs. It was a solemn commitment entered into the global poor do not march on parliaments; for very good reasons. We should, in so far as they are out of sight and out of mind. At times we possibly can, honour that commitment at the the squalor and hopelessness of their lives render earliest possible date. I am well aware of what them and their plight forgettable and difficult to commitments have been entered into at EU level consider. Thankfully, a new alliance is growing but we can do better than that. I recognise that among our citizens, young and old, based on we are being lectured by the great and the good activism and idealism, as will be evident tomor- but we take our responsibilities seriously. row. I welcome this as a solid contribution to I have been in various locations with Members Government policy from civil society. of this House. I was at the UNCTAD Conference in Sao Paulo — information on which I found Jeffrey Sachs said recently: among my papers this afternoon — with the Mini- We cannot simply close our eyes and hope ster of State, Deputy Kitt, the Minister, Deputy that Africa’s problems will resolve themselves, , and others around this time last because they will grow steadily worse if we con- year where the issues of trade and development tinue to ignore them. That is not good for any- were addressed. I listened to people like Pres- body, neither for Africans, nor for rich coun- ident Museveni of Uganda talk about his vision tries. Right now, Africa has 900 million people, for Uganda and Africa. I did not agree with most of them impoverished, but in one gener- everything he said but he set out his stall in a ation, that number will exceed 1.5 billion coherent and strong manner. people struggling against disease, instability, I have seen the work Development Co-Oper- hunger, and violence. So the problem will not ation Ireland has done in Uganda, the work done go away on its own. We must help solve it. on HIV-AIDS projects, the co-operation among Trinity College, St. James’s Hospital and projects Kofi Annan said in Dublin recently that coming in Kampala and work on the malaria projects. I to the aid of the global poor was not just about recognise the success of these projects in reducing charity but about enlightened self›interest. We child mortality. I saw projects on education, HIV- ignore the global poor at our peril, in a world that AIDS and health. I recall it being an emotional is increasingly inter-dependent. occasion when I saw hundreds of children walk My central point concerns the integrity of sol- down a mountainside in the Tigre area of Ethi- emn commitments. Ireland gave a solemn com- opia last September on their way to school to sit, mitment. We made that promise in our full senses in the case of one school, in a class of 102 students to the international community. Making that but they would not have been going to school commitment meant first winning that argument were it not for the support of Irish taxpayers, within Cabinet and this House and with the social Development Co-operation Ireland and this partners and the NGOs. That is the central prin- Government. The fact that we have been able to ciple that underpins the commitment. contribute towards the training of their teachers In the debate on this issue Members on all and the development of their curriculum has sides of the House must be resolute. We cannot made a great difference in Ethiopia. reopen the argument on the principle of solidarity During the course of my visit there I met a dis- with poor countries and in meeting the commit- parate and disjointed group of opposition poli- ment to reach the 0.7% target. We cannot begin ticians who were reluctant to meet us because to unstitch that. It was the right thing to do when there were afraid. However, I was pleased to see the commitment was made and it is the right how well the opposition did in the recent elec- thing to do now. tions in Ethiopia. I am concerned about the fall- I look forward to the announcement shortly by out, the oppression and the killing that has taken the Government of the new target. It is a critical place. I have made the point to the Ethiopian point on which our partners in Africa, and in authorities that our support of Ethiopia is not particular, our own people will judge our credi- unconditional, but our support involves support bility and integrity. for good governance. One point we made clear to 1181 G8 Summit and Overseas Development Aid: 29 June 2005. Motion (Resumed) 1182

President Museveni last year was that we support being decided. It seems that the European Union the emergence of a strong opposition as well as a is saying that its hands are tied by World Trade strong government party there. Developing coun- Organisation rules and this is the case. The World tries must realise that there is a price to pay for Trade Organisation requires that free trade agreeing to be supported by countries like agreements must have reciprocity. In other Ireland. They must have a vibrant, critical oppo- words, these countries must open their markets sition and a critical media. in the same way as we open our markets, and the Lome´ agreements are in breach of the require- Mr. Allen: Some people from that country are ment of reciprocity. The waiver that the African, present in the Visitors’ Gallery. Caribbean and Pacific countries are currently enjoying will lapse at the end of 2007. My pro- Mr. Carey: I am delighted they are here. In that posal is simply that the Irish Government should respect, I fully support the motion and the argue that free trade rules that apply to EPAs Government’s amendment to it. should be linked to the attainment of certain I want to slightly shift the focus of the debate. development indicators, in other words, that the I have a healthy scepticism of promises which stricter interpretation of reciprocity would not cannot be kept. The Taoiseach, in all sincerity, kick in until certain standards in regard to edu- meant to keep that promise on behalf of the Irish cation, health and social welfare are achieved. people. It is regrettable that circumstances have This would require a change to rules in regard dictated otherwise. I hope everybody here on an to the WHO or at the very least a ruling on an all-party basis, the NGO sector and civil society interpretation of existing rules. That would be a will be able to encourage the Government to be positive measure for the Irish Government to as courageous as it possibly can in fulfilling its take in the context that everybody shares the commitment to meet the 0.7% target at the earl- same view. iest possible date — I mean a good deal earlier than 2015. The second proposal arises from a debate on I want to focus on the issue of trade. We cannot alternative methods of funding the millennium have aid — we can but it will not work — without development goals apart from traditional aid. trade. I was interested to note that today the One of the proposals the Minister, Deputy Minister of State, Deputy Ahern, in speaking at Cowen, rejected recently, and rightly so, was in a function in Farmleigh mentioned that central to regard to an air tax because it would distort Ireland’s approach and that of our EU partners domestic economies. is a commitment to respond positively to the con- It is not my proposal, but the idea I would sup- cerns of developing countries. He said this is con- port is to tax the exports of armaments. One sidered to be an essential part of the Doha amazing statistic I saw recently was that since the development agenda and it is clear that there will Second World War 2% of wars have taken place be no successful conclusion of the negotiations in the developed world but 98% of armaments unless it is shown that developing countries are have come from there. That really says it all. being treated fairly. Some 20% of armaments are required for the Trade, aid and development is very much a defence of countries. Everything else carries a coherent package. Ireland has a good record. It is moral question mark with it and a global tax on a pity we are arguing among ourselves about how armament exports is something the Government the implementation of aspects of this policy are should fight for, as an alternative and as an to be furthered but I believe this will be resolved additional form of funding for the Millennium and we will be able to return to an agreed agenda Development Goals. on a way forward in supporting Africa, South America, Vietnam, East Timor and many others Minister of State at the Department of the who have benefited from our support and we Taoiseach (Mr. Kitt): I welcome this debate. I have benefited, in turn, from our involvement in thank the Green Party for allowing us to have the communities in those countries. debate. As the House is aware I have been Mini- ster of State with responsibility for ODA twice in Mr. Andrews: I have two proposals, the first of my career, in 1993-1994 and in 2002-2004. I am which concerns the economic partnership agree- especially pleased to be here in the company of ments. It has been widely acknowledged that another former Minister of State with responsi- there are serious dangers involved in arriving at bility in this area, Deputy O’Donnell and my col- these types of agreements. Through the Euro- league, the current Minister of State, Deputy pean Affairs committee we were about to raise Conor Lenihan, as well as Deputies in other par- this matter with the Minister of State, Deputy ties who have played a major role in this area Conor Lenihan. He raised it with the General over many years. Affairs and External Relations Council of the I am proud to have played a role in the trans- European Union to his credit. He explained that formation of a Government programme which is Members of this House were concerned about the the visible expression of our national solidarity manner in which those trade agreements are with the poorest people on earth. Our national 1183 G8 Summit and Overseas Development Aid: 29 June 2005. Motion (Resumed) 1184

[Mr. Kitt.] often quoted to us as models still tie significant ODA programme, Development Cooperation portions of their aid programmes. I have seen Ireland — the name was chosen when I was Mini- that in many countries I have visited, especially ster responsible — has always had a very high in Africa, over the years. Our aid is concentrated reputation for its quality and effectiveness. in the poorest countries. We have had a dis- Development Cooperation Ireland reflects pre- ciplined and focused approach to ODA. Our cisely what we are all about, acting in our role as programmes are mostly concentrated in sub partners to the countries that we are bilaterally Saharan Africa, and in regions of dire humani- involved with, especially in Africa. tarian emergency. We do not have a sprawling The massive increase in the programme’s fund- and unfocused programme where ODA is spread ing over the years 2000›05 has propelled Ireland thinly among many recipients. into the league of major donors. During my time Our aid programme is enormously innovative as the Minister of State responsible, one of my in terms of its policy and its delivery. When I was key objectives was to communicate to the public Minister of State in 2002-04, the OECD conduc- how the Government was transforming the prog- ted a peer review of our programme. The con- ramme, how much money was being spent and clusion was that we had one of the most innov- what the impact of this money was on our ative and effective programmes of any donor. The developing country partners. I am convinced that OECD sees us as an international leader in pro- unless we bring the people with us, we will lose moting new approaches and in delivering effec- the battle. I am also convinced that this debate tive aid. As we increase ODA up to the UN tar- will help greatly in shaping the Government’s get, I want this debate to focus more and more policy. I say that in a generous way to our Oppo- on the content of the programme and on its effec- sition colleagues. Ideally, it would be great to tiveness. The massive increase in aid volume have an agreement tonight. I do not believe that allows Ireland to stake out an international lead- is possible, but that is why this debate is so ing role in new and exciting areas of important. It is a pity we do not have more development. debates of this type. I will mention three that I strongly supported There has been an intense focus on develop- as the responsible Minister of State. It is not fully ment aid as an abstract statistical concept. We appreciated in this House that Ireland is one of talk in percentages of gross national income, the leading international donors in the area of GNI, and statistical targets. I want the debate to HIV/AIDS. Our aid programme recognised the focus more on both the volume of aid and inno- potential scale and impact of the AIDS epidemic vations in policy. In 2000 when the Government well before many other donors. Ireland was one set a timeframe for reaching the UN target our of the first donors to have a strong and coherent aid volume was \254 million. In 2005, ODA will strategic approach to fighting the disease. In part- reach \545 million. ODA has more than doubled icular, it strongly supported research into an in volume over the past five years. AIDS vaccine, one of the most innovative and In 2002, the UN and the World Bank called for exciting scientific research projects in the world a doubling of ODA by all donors to meet the today. Millennium Development Goals. We have We need to bring our national expertise in doubled aid in five years. No other donor in the information and communications technology to OECD area has increased aid volume at such a bear on our aid programme. The ICT industry rate. The Government will continue to give sub- has a strong record of developing new approaches stantial and sustained increases in ODA in the to dealing with problems. As our national aid three years 2005-07. Over this period our aid vol- programme expands, I would like to see it ume will increase by a further \190 million. develop a strong partnership with the ICT sector. The setting of a timeframe to meet the UN tar- Ireland’s ODA programme is now focusing get in 2007 has galvanised the system. In effect, more and more on the role of trade of the private the aid budget is now ringfenced and is guaran- sector in promoting the economic growth that is teed substantial annual increases in volume. I essential for long term development. I established acknowledge the role my colleague, Deputy the Private Sector Forum, a vehicle for encourag- O’Donnell, played in that initiative. That ODA ing dialogue between Development Cooperation enjoys a protected status in the budget reflects Ireland and the Irish private sector. I would like the Government’s commitment to meeting the to see Irish expertise in food technology, in phar- UN target. The Government has indicated it will maceuticals, in construction and other key areas set a new timeframe for meeting the UN target. of the economy brought into a partnership with This will ensure that aid volume will continue to our aid programme. increase in the coming years in a steady and sus- Development Cooperation Ireland, in partner- tained way until the target is met. ship with the Department of Enterprise, Trade There are unique elements to our national aid and Employment has also done a great deal of programme which underpin its effectiveness. For work in the area of trade and development. As a start we do not tie aid. Even donors that are one of the most globalised economies in the 1185 G8 Summit and Overseas Development Aid: 29 June 2005. Motion (Resumed) 1186 world, as an EU member state that strongly sup- more than an omnibus motion. It is a linked ports the CAP, and as a country deeply engaged motion with an integrated approach and one I in fighting poverty in sub Saharan Africa, Ireland fully support. is uniquely placed to talk about issues of trade, On behalf of the Labour Party, we are not sug- agriculture and development. gesting the Government has sat on its hands. We I have been involved in trade and development are suggesting that the Government has broken issues for many years. I participated in the talks its promise given before the United Nations and at WTO level at Seattle, Doha and Cancun and with appalling consequences. This debate is not worked closely with my other ministerial col- an occasion for self-congratulation but one of leagues. The debate about the CAP and Africa deep shame. I appreciate the presence in the has been too simplistic. For a start, all of the House of two previous Ministers of State with countries we work with in Africa are net food responsibility for development co-operation, importers. Under the EU’s Everything But Arms Deputies O’Donnell and Kitt, for whom I have Agreement, they already have guaranteed access, the greatest respect. The current Minister of duty and quota free, for their exports to the EU State, Deputy Conor Lenihan, also honours us market. The real issue for them is not the CAP. with his presence. It is how to build up their domestic productive The context in which discussion of the motion capacity to avail of the new market opportunities takes place is that of the world millennium on the EU market. So many times I have wit- development goals, eight targets adopted by the nessed this as I have travelled abroad in Africa United Nations General Assembly in 2000. The and other places. In Sierra Leone fishermen who goals can be summarised as follows: the reduction were trying to sell their products abroad, did not by half of those living in poverty and hunger by have the capacity and could not deal with all the 2015; the achievement of universal primary edu- regulations. It is so frustrating to see so much fine cation; the elimination of gender disparity in agricultural produce, as in Zambia and Malawi, primary and secondary education by 2005 and at for instance, which did not have the capacity to all levels by 2015; the reduction of child mortality deal with all the bureaucracy and sell and market among under fives by two thirds; the reduction of their products. There is so much work we can do the maternal mortality ratio by three quarters; the in those areas and working closely with trade halting of the spread of HIV-AIDS, tuberculosis, policies at EU level with agricultural Ministers, measles and malaria; the ending of environmental we can get into those areas in a more profound degradation and the achievement of a sustainable way. Any rational analysis will show that the total environment, a most welcome feature of this liberalisation of the world agricultural market will motion; and the creation of a fair global partner- not benefit the poor of Africa. It will benefit Bra- ship for development. The final millennium goal zil, Australia and the US where economies of is seldom discussed by the media simply because scale mean that food can be produced at costs far it imposes obligations on the richest countries and lower than in the EU or Africa. those who possess great power in the area of To listen to some Deputies one would think the trade. Government had sat on its hands for the past five En passant, I will make a few points on the years. I want the figure of \545 million in ODA contributions I have heard this evening. Anybody to be at the forefront of this debate. I want the who suggests the economic partnership agree- figure of \1.8 billion in ODA over the next three ments, EPAs, as negotiated, are fair or rules years to be foremost in the public mind. These based must not have read the text. I appreciate are ODA levels that were unimaginable just a few Deputy Andrews’s interest in EPAs, which are years ago. They are figures of which we should much worse than the World Trade Organisation. be proud. They have allowed us to create one of For example, they re-introduce the Singapore the most progressive and dynamic aid prog- issues, which were dropped between Doha and rammes in the world. the resumption of the talks next December. Put The real debate we should have is on how to simply, they are unequal bullying arrangements ensure that as the programme increases towards applied to African countries by Europe. \l billion, we will use it effectively to fight pov- Professor Jeffrey Sachs, a person to whom erty. I am convinced we will make progress on many speakers justifiably referred, has summar- this issue as we approach the Millennium Summit ised the impact of the eight millennium goals in the UN in September. This debate needs to were they to be achieved between 2005 and 2015. look at new ways of delivering aid, new partner- I will speak as plainly as I can on this issue. If the ships between the aid programme and dynamic goals were achieved, 500 million people would be parts of the private sector and new approaches to lifted out of extreme poverty, 300 million people fighting disease. would no longer suffer from hunger, 350 million fewer people would lack access to clean water, Mr. M. Higgins: I am pleased to be able to 650 million people would have greater access to speak on this very fine motion proposed by the sanitation, 30 million children who would other- Green Party, an Comhaontas Glas. It is much wise have died would be alive and the lives of 2 1187 G8 Summit and Overseas Development Aid: 29 June 2005. Motion (Resumed) 1188

[Mr. M. Higgins.] I am glad reference was made to militarisation. million women who would have died in childbirth In 2004, the United States budget for military would be saved. expenditure was $450 billion dollars, while its The achievement of the millennium develop- expenditure on the tied aid it provides, which ment goals constitutes the greatest moral chal- amounts to 0.15% of GDP, was $15 billion. The lenge of our time. Politically, it offers the best cost to date of the Iraq war is more than $180 possible basis for a secure and responsible world. billion. Socially and culturally, it vindicates the right of To return to Professor Sachs report, he states different societies to exist and flourish, tell their that “the increased development assistance for own stories, access their own memory and the Goals will only amount to one half of one imagine their own future. Economically, it makes per cent of rich countries’ combined income.” We possible the emergence of new and exciting mod- should recall that those affected have been made els of connection between the economy, society many promises previously, including the new and culture. Ecologically, the achievement of the international economic order of the late 1970s goals in the context of sustainable development which, I recall clearly, made an appeal to self- would constitute a contribution to the planet as a interest but was quickly cast aside as a single whole that would stand as a contrast to the deso- hegemonic neo-liberal model established itself in lation visited on our common inheritance by the developed world and became an imposed instrument by the international financial insti- irresponsible despoliation and abuse of resources tutions on the developing world. in what is sometimes incorrectly referred to as the Previous speakers referred to trust. It is developed world. important we do not break our word again. We The achievement of the millennium goals will gave a commitment to a world in which 2 billion require a new partnership between the developed people live in poverty, 30,000 children die every and developing world. It has implications for day, 500,000 mothers died last year during preg- trade, aid, debt relief, reform of the international nancy, 3 million children died from AIDS last financial institutions and politics at every level. year, 120 million children have no access to En passant, I will put another question to the primary education and 1 billion people have no Minister of State du jour, Deputy Conor Lenihan, access to sanitation, with all the medical con- and his predecessor, Deputy Kitt. If they want sequences of this. reform of the international financial institutions, We do not need to be reminded of these ter- will they agree that officials from Development rible and entirely avoidable statistics, or perhaps Co-operation Ireland will be nominated to serve we do at a time when our Government is break- in the advisory section of the International Mon- ing its promise to the poorest of the poor. A etary Fund and World Bank alongside officials UNICEF report in 1989 calculated that the from the Central Bank and Department of Fin- additional financial resources required to meet ance? It would be interesting to have a straight the most essential of human needs by the 2000 answer to this straight question. Equally, if we would be between $30 billion and $50 billion dol- were ever serious about achieving the target of lars per annum, approximately one twentieth of allocating 0.7% of GDP to development co-oper- military expenditure in that year. ation, why was the Cassidy report on manpower We were here before — in 1989 — when we requirements of DCI not implemented? looked forward to 2000. In that year, primary Before I deal with the sanctimonious notion health care could have been made available at a that it may not have been possible to spend all cost of around $5 per person, primary education the money envisaged under the 0.7% commit- or adult literacy could have been provided at cost ment, was it ever intended to spend it? Are staff of $25 per person and basic sanitation of piped changes and recruitment indicative of any water would have cost $6 per person per annum. serious intent? The opportunity of responding at the end of the As Professor Sachs puts it in his report to the 1980s, like the opportunity of creating a new UN Secretary General entitled, Investing in economic order at the end of the 1970s, was lost. Development: A Practical Plan to Achieve the Trust is, therefore, crucial as we face into the Millennium Development Goals: challenge we have accepted of achieving the world millennium development goals by 2015. Fortunately the costs of achieving the Goals The worst aspects of the Government’s failure are entirely affordable and well within the thus far to meet the commitments solemnly given promises of 0.7 per cent of GDP made at Mon- to the United Nations General Assembly in terrey and Johannesburg. The required doubl- September 2000 is the betrayal of trust involved ing of annual official development assistance to and the bad example it gives not only to fellow $135 billion in 2006, rising to $195 billion by members of the European Union but to the entire 2015, pales beside the wealth of high-income international community. We no longer compare countries — and the world’s military budget of ourselves to countries such as Norway which has $900 billion a year. raised its commitment to 1% of GDP. Instead, 1189 G8 Summit and Overseas Development Aid: 29 June 2005. Motion (Resumed) 1190 the Taoiseach this morning compared himself to The Government announced its commitment in President Bush. There is a moral message in this September 2000. It was a commitment that it development. repeated as late as the 58th General Assembly of Ireland was held up as an example to others the United Nations in 2003. It included the com- when the Taoiseach stated unequivocally that we mitment in its Government programme. It nego- would reach the UN target of 0.7% in 2007. Our tiated with the trade union movement on the commitment was particularly appreciated in con- basis of the commitment with the assumption that tinents such as Africa, which so desperately need the mid-term point would be 0.45%. The Govern- untied aid and genuine assistance with their task ment never reached that, and now its achieve- of development, and the votes of African coun- ment in 2005 is at most 0.41%, including the tries followed. Now, Ireland will be remembered additional \10 million being spent on tsunami as the country that became too rich to keep its relief. At the present rate it would not reach its promise to the poorest of the world. No other 0.7% commitment until 2028. logical construction can be put on the Taoiseach’s I wonder if the Government realises the sup- comments today other than that if Ireland had port here for honouring our commitments on aid, entered a recession, he would have been able to for being a leader in the case for fair trade, imple- keep his promise. Unfortunately, however, as a menting a meaningful cancellation of debt and result of Ireland becoming rich, he cannot keep it. being courageous in supporting such initiatives as The world we have made, and that we are now the Tobin tax. There is every evidence that the in the process of remaking, is increasing its public have a morally more advanced position military expenditure and reducing its expenditure than the Government on each of these. on aid. In 1995, global military expenditure was Tonight we are not just discussing aid, but an $864 billion while the estimated global expendi- integrated approach in a comprehensive motion ture on the treatment of AIDS, TB and malaria that includes debt, trade, reform of the inter- was $15 billion. Between 1945 and 1995, 23 mil- national financial institutions and ecological lion people, military and civilian, died due to war. responsibility. We should remember that in some In the same period, 150 million died due to of the poorest countries, debt service exceeds the AIDS, TB and malaria. These matters can be combined health and education budget with addressed now. consequent loss of life for, among others, chil- Today and every day, 3,000 people die from dren. If developing countries increased their malaria, three out of four of them children. Every share of world exports at 1999 prices by 5% it year 1.5 million die from TB and 8 million are would be worth $350 billion, seven times total aid. infected. Those are just some of the features our A 1% export increase would reduce world pov- commitment was to address when it was given in erty by 12%. What we do in aid, even if it is September 2000. They have not changed. We untied, and I acknowledge that, is but a portion have changed in our commitment. The world to of what an unequal world of trade and a perni- which our commitment was addressed has got cious world of debt is robbing from the worse. developing world. Next year there will be a review of where all The present round of debt cancellation is an countries stand in the achievement of these goals. extremely welcome first step to lighten the bur- The special representative appointed by Kofi den on many African countries. We must ensure Annan, Secretary General of the United Nations, that issues of debt, trade and aid are taken to canvass for achievement of these goals is a together when considering strategies for the former Development Minister, Eveline Herfkens. development of the world’s poorest countries. She has expressed her grave disappointment at Beyond these basic steps there are other crucial Ireland’s announcement that it will not meet its development issues. commitment. Those who had welcomed Ireland’s So far the G8 and its major contributors have commitment will see the breach of trust and the been silent on reform of the international finan- bad example it gives as little more than a cial institutions, as have we. The conditions betrayal. imposed by the International Monetary Fund and Already there is a shortfall on the commit- the World Bank can impede the benefits of debt ments made towards fulfilling the Millennium relief and increased aid. Zambia is a good Development Goals. The AIDS/HIV action prog- example — the price of debt relief there under ramme has a shortfall of more than 50%. As the the limited heavily indebted poor countries debt directors of a number of non-governmental initiatives was the privatisation of the Zambian organisations have pointed out, more than 8,000 National Commercial Bank in which many small people die from AIDS every day and, in that con- people have deposits. Under public pressure the text, our Government’s decision is “a shameful Zambian Government withdrew from its pro- breach of faith with the world’s poorest people”, posal. The cost was $1 billion in debt write-offs as Mr. Hans Zomer of Do´ chas said when speak- and the Government has had to reintroduce the ing for a group that represents 34 development proposal and there will be a bid for the bank from organisations. a consortium located in South Africa. 1191 G8 Summit and Overseas Development Aid: 29 June 2005. Motion (Resumed) 1192

[Mr. M. Higgins.] found that an immediate doubling of aid could The development debate is now very much nar- be used effectively in Ethiopia. rower than it was when I first began speaking Another myth is that debt relief or increased aid about it in these Houses in the 1970s. An example has not been used well. In Benin, 43% of HIPC is the failure in recent times to address the issue debt relief, achieved with severe conditions, went of appropriate technology transfer. If models to education in 2002, allowing the recruitment of based on indigenous or appropriate technology teachers for empty posts in rural areas. A total of that were labour intensive had been chosen — 54% went to health, of which a fifth was used to and many of the countries towards which these recruit health staff for rural clinics, and the were addressed by way of assistance were 70% remainder was allocated to implementing rural in nature — they would have had a better HIV/AIDS and anti-malarial programmes. In effect in encouraging participation and would Mali a monthly stipend is provided to more than have been preferable to forms of technology 5,000 community teachers using HIPC relief. In transfer at the top end which suited multi- Niger a special programme that focuses on rural nationals, donor governments and receiving elites education, health, food security and water who did not use them for the benefit of the coun- systems has been fully financed through HIPC. In tries involved. Malawi, HIPC resources have been used to train Such models have been rejected at times in fav- 3,600 new teachers a year. In Burkina Faso, 39% our of models of capital intensive technology. If of HIPC relief has been spent on education, 33% a different model of technology of transfer had on health and 28% on rural roads. been used, countries would be further along in The poorest of the world need an integrated, developing food security, getting clean water and sustained commitment across all of the issues of sanitation and the basic infrastructure needed for debt, trade and aid. We could have spent the agricultural production and innovation in the pro- money; they needed it. The Government’s White duction of such products as might in time make Paper, which is being travelled around the coun- it to the export market. try, must deal with all of these issues across the The opportunity must be taken to massively relevant Departments such as Foreign Affairs, increase the expenditure on education and health Finance and Enterprise, Trade and Employment. and use the relief of debt cancellation for such A White Paper that descends to being an internal purposes. More importantly still, it must include document in Foreign Affairs would be of limited participation, advocacy and empowerment value. measures. The nonsense must stop of thinking that they are not part of the development agenda, The people of Ireland, and those who support we must end this sneering undercurrent that this motion, do not want to be remembered as the advocacy is somehow less than other direct food country that became too rich to meet its solemn relief. commitment to the poorest of the poor in the world at the time of greatest need, when good As for trade, which will be a litmus test for the example and leadership required that we do major global economies, we must never forget otherwise. We want something other than that. It that a 1% increase in trade by developing coun- is important, even now, to call on the Govern- tries would reduce poverty by 12%. ment to announce, as soon as possible, its com- While the elimination of corruption is mitment not just to the 0.7% target but to the important and the reform of governance neces- changes required across the relevant Depart- sary, it is surely more positive to concentrate on ments and international financial institutions that strategies and opportunities for the development will give us the integrated reform the motion of civil society that will come from the social proposes. expenditure made possible by debt cancellation. The Labour Party’s decision to lodge the commit- Mr. Gregory: I wish to share time with ment on overseas development aid in legislation Deputies Harkin, Cowley, Joe Higgins, Connolly is but a first step in an integrated approach such and Morgan. as that outlined in the motion towards tackling the issue. Acting Chairman (Mr. O’Shea): Is that I would like to dispose of the suggestion that agreed? Agreed. we would not be able to spend this additional aid effectively. When Tro´ caire made its submission Mr. Gregory: Tugaim tacaı´ocht iomla´n do gach to the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign uile chuid den tairiscint seo de chuid Pha´irtı´ an Affairs in November 2004, it said: Chomhaontais Ghlas. I support the Green Party’s In the context of achieving the Millennium motion in its entirety as I regard it as presented Development Goals, the World Bank and IMF in measured and reasonable terms. I find it have estimated that at least $30 billion could interesting to note the Fine Gael Party, like the be absorbed by poor countries immediately, Government is not prepared to accept it in all its rising to over $50 billion per year in the provisions. It is essential at this stage, following medium term. The World Bank and IMF have the G8 proposal to restrict debt cancellation to 1193 G8 Summit and Overseas Development Aid: 29 June 2005. Motion (Resumed) 1194

18 countries, that the Government should openly Our levels are less than half of the highest in reaffirm Ireland’s policy of 100% debt cancel- Europe. lation for all heavily-indebted poorer countries. We need to live up to our commitments to those who depend on us for their very survival. Mr. C. Lenihan: Hear, hear. We have reneged on our promises. As a nation we cannot hold our heads up and do this. As the Mr. Gregory: Equally, the reneging of the sol- second richest country in Europe, we should be emn promise given by the Taoiseach, Deputy leading the way along with Norway, Sweden and , at the UN to meet the 0.7% GNP the Netherlands. Instead, we are defaulting on target, sullied the good name of Ireland in a most our commitments. For a nation that has a proud unnecessary and reprehensible way. If for no history of sending missionaries and aid workers other reason than to restore Ireland’s honourable to Third World countries, in poor and hard times, good name, the Government must reaffirm we now have a binding obligation to keep our Ireland’s commitment to this target at the forth- promises in good times. The Minister of State at coming UN millennium summit. I accept that the the Department of Taoiseach, Deputy Kitt, said \ overseas development aid contribution of 1.8 there was an impression we are not doing any- billion between 2005 and 2007 will mark a signifi- thing. We are, but it is not enough. Just two years cant increase in Ireland’s aid programme. We ago the Taoiseach told the World Bank that the could indeed be proud of it, if it were not for the need for increased overseas development aid was commitment given, which now appears to be an more evident than ever and that Ireland would act of hypocrisy and opportunism at a time when reach out to those less fortunate than ourselves. a seat on the security council was the motivating That time has now come. factor and not justice for the world’s poorest We need to revisit the proposals from the EU countries. Commissioner for Agriculture and Rural I am not interested in the posing of mega-rich Development on the new sugar regime. While we rock stars telling us what we must do with the tax know the effects of these proposals on Ireland, we pay, when they themselves do not pay their they can be offset by compensation payments. own fair share of tax for anything, whether for However, for countries like Ghana these pro- our hospitals or aid to Africa. posals are a disaster. It already has a preferential trade agreement on sugar with the EU. However, Ms O’Donnell: That is not true. the new proposals will cut 60% in prices and dev- Mr. Gregory: Ireland must honour the commit- astate Ghana’s sugar industry. Last week I list- ment of the 0.7% target sooner than 2015, the ened to the President of Ghana say that while the date given by the Minister for Foreign Affairs, recently announced debt relief was welcomed, the Deputy Dermot Ahern, this morning. Inter- proposed sugar regime would instantly wipe out national social justice is to a significant degree the benefit of the cancellation three times over. dependent on fair trade. A real test to our com- I commend this motion to the House and I con- mitment to achieving justice for the less gratulate the Green Party on putting forward developed countries is to review, a reasonable such a timely and comprehensive motion which term, all subsidies given to producers in the reminds us of our solemn commitments to the developed affluent world. We must re-examine poorest of the poor. the effect of those subsidies on the less developed world. Dr. Cowley: I congratulate the Green Party for putting forward this composite motion, spelling Ms Harkin: In 2000 the Millennium Declar- out clearly the deficiencies in what we are doing ation adopted by world leaders represented a for our poorer brethren of the world. We must declaration of solidarity with all those in the have a conscience about this matter because Third World. The overall goal was to lift 300 mil- Ireland was a country where entire families were lion people out of extreme poverty and to save wiped out by TB and it was ravaged by famine 30 million children who would otherwise die and emigration in which so much of our popu- before their fifth birthday. To achieve these goals, lation was decimated. These days, few people die Ireland made a commitment of devoting 0.7% of of TB and malaria in the developed world. GNP to overseas development aid by 2007. However, for the developing countries this is a In 2003, we reached 0.41% which put us ahead different story where they are the largest killers. of Australia at 0.25%, Greece at 0.21%, Italy at These are conditions about which something can 0.26% and the US at 0.14%. However, we were be done. still behind other countries like Belgium at In the past in Ireland, TB was related to poor 0.61%, Luxemburg at 0.8%, the Netherlands at living conditions, basic sanitation and housing. 0.81% and Norway at 0.92%. These statistics dis- This is the prevalent situation in the Third World. prove the Taoiseach’s claim that Ireland is up Knowing about it gives us a responsibility to there with the best in Europe. While we are not tackle the issue. While some efforts are made, at the bottom, we are certainly not near the top. much more could be done. Targets have been set 1195 G8 Summit and Overseas Development Aid: 29 June 2005. Motion (Resumed) 1196

[Dr. Cowley.] jail to stop them from opposing works for which and every speaker has outlined the need to reach no consent has been given by the Minister for the 0.7% of GNP target to be devoted to overseas Communications, Marine and Natural Resources development aid by 2007. However, this commit- and with no qualified risk assessment yet put into ment was broken. It is an indictment of where we the public domain. stand as a country and a society. It behoves us to get on the right track with our responsibility to Dr. Cowley: Hear, hear. developing countries. AIDS is not just a health problem but a mass- Mr. J. Higgins: International capitalism is at the ive threat to the entire global community. Some root of world poverty. Exploitation and poverty 7,000 people die of AIDS and over 40,000 are is an inevitable tool of international capitalism being infected with HIV every day. and if that system is not changed, we will be here 8 o’clock These are major figures and 95% of in 20 years’ time with the same poverty and the these people are from developing same horror. countries. This tells the entire story. There are entire communities of AIDS orphans. These Mr. Gregory: Hear, hear. situations arise because their parents infected with HIV have not had the basic drugs to ensure Mr. J. Higgins: I will be in Edinburgh to protest a longer life. Speaking of longer life, an examin- the policies of the G8, but unless we sweep away ation of the life expectancies in developing coun- this rotten system where investment and pro- tries is telling. If we had the life expectancies of duction are simply to satisfy the greed of a tiny these countries, very few, if any Members would but wealthy and powerful corporate minority and be here. For instance, life expectancy at birth in replace it with a system where production invest- Mozambique is 41 compared with 77 in Ireland. ment is for the good of humanity, poverty will Infant mortality at birth in Mozambique is 137 always be there. per 1,000. One can go through a list of other countries such as Lesotho where life expectancy Mr. Connolly: I welcome the opportunity to is 35 and Zambia, where it is 32. These figures speak on this important motion and I compliment tell their own story. I wonder what we can do the Green Party on tabling it. We live in an age about them. of unprecedented wealth and prosperity and yet inhumane things happen. We are in a position Mr. J. Higgins: The Government amendment whereby 30,000 children die every day and 800 to the Green Party motion is replete with hypoc- million go to bed hungry. These statistics are not risy. It acknowledges the need for international satisfactory and aid has a critical role to play in agreements to control the international trade in achieving these goals. However, it is not a magic arms, to assist conflict resolution and to prevent bullet or a cure-all for all ills. Experience has the terrible cost to human lives and economically. shown that where aid is deployed efficiently as The same Government has allowed our island to part of a wider development strategy, it makes a be a military aircraft carrier for the biggest lasting difference in helping people to lift them- imperialist superpower and arms merchant in the selves out of poverty. world to launch a murderous invasion of Iraq in However, approximately two thirds of the support of a transparent lie that has killed and money currently on aid could be described as maimed tens of thousands of innocent people. It phantom aid in that it is not available for poverty supports logistically the ongoing occupation of reduction in developing countries. I am con- Iraq by this imperialist superpower. We cannot cerned about recent examples of this phenom- take this Government seriously in its commit- enon. The value of such aid is deflated by excess- ment to the poor of the world after that. ive administrative costs, extravagant spending on The billions of humanity and the hundreds of overpriced technical assistance from consultants, millions of children who live in poverty, have no double accounting of debt relief and tying aid to clean water and suffer disease and homelessness trade from donors’ own firms. I am concerned want to see poverty made history. However, that about such practices. will not be achieved by well-meaning millionaire How much of Ireland’s contribution could be rock stars and artists cooing to the alleged gentler classified as phantom aid which has been side of international establishment politicians devalued by an administrative bureaucracy and who are the main spear carriers for the major other costs, such as monthly salaries of $6,000 and multinational corporations which rob those poor $7,000 and upwards? I have seen situations where countries with trade agreements and by other administrators on such salaries have operated means, just as brutally as their forebears did with amidst rank poverty. It is gross and some form of cannonballs and sailing ships in a past era. example should be set. The World Health Organ- These are the same multinational corporations isation has people on such salaries in developing such as Shell which sent five decent Mayo resi- countries and it is immoral. dents to jail today. The courts have turned logic I would like to see developed countries spon- on its head to facilitate Shell, sending residents to soring, if one can use that term, individual coun- 1197 G8 Summit and Overseas Development Aid: 29 June 2005. Motion (Resumed) 1198 tries. For example, Ireland could be the lead was invoked in Cuba in 1898, Costa Rica in 1922, country in Ghana in terms of the aid sent there Namibia in 1995 and Mozambique in 1999. When rather than giving small amounts of aid to every the notion is successfully invoked, the state debt African country in the hope that the problem becomes the personal debt of those responsible goes away. If each developed country were to during the dictatorship and cannot engage the fin- adopt an under-developed country and provide ancial resources of the state. The fact that it is the core people there, one would not have the open to developing countries to pursue such a same cost in administrators in X number of coun- course must be highlighted and promoted by tries throughout Africa. This concept should be Governments concerned with the issue of debt tackled and examined — efforts could be made burden on developing countries. This State to develop it as the G8 summit meets — because should actively encourage such states to invoke considerable sums of money are eaten up by the notion of odious debt where possible. People administrators and it is not sensible to have such must understand the reason certain states will be duplication of effort. One would be in a better opposed to the abolition of world debt. It is situation to judge whether one was receiving because to them, it would amount to giving up value for money and one could report back on a tool of control and subjugation, giving up the progress to one’s own people. method by which they carry out the economic col- Currently, the main argument is whether we onisation of developing states. It is the method by are giving 0.7% of gross national product in aid. which they force their liberal economic agenda I am unsure as to whether it should be the biggest on a large part of the world with disastrous con- issue. We should consider how the money is spent sequences in terms of poverty, hunger and and if there is a point to what we give. Is it hitting disease. the target and getting results? Citizens of developing countries are disempow- ered as economic policy is decided by the IMF Mr. Morgan: The debt burden on developing and the World Bank. This is done by way of the countries is a symptom of the disease at the core structural adjustment programmes which are of the international financial institutions, namely imposed on indebted countries and which have the International Monetary Fund and the World dramatically aggravated the problems facing Bank. The role of these two anti-democratic those states. Their central aim is to impose econ- bodies in world politics must be challenged. My omic policies approved by Washington upon party demands the overhaul, reform and demo- developing countries. Unfortunately, as is usual, cratisation of the IMF and the World Bank. we do not have enough time for this important These institutions and the interests they represent debate. Debt cancellation must be accompanied are responsible for the debt crisis. Every action by the ending of structural adjustment prog- they take is designed to benefit developed states rammes and the thorough reform of the inter- at the expense of developing states. They were national financial systems as nothing less will end designed for this purpose and they are structured this scourge which plagues so many people in so in a way which subjugates the interests of the many states around the globe at this time. developing countries to that of the powerfully Minister of State at the Department of Foreign developed states, in particular, the USA. Affairs (Mr. C. Lenihan): I thank all the Deputies These institutions have played a major role in who contributed tonight and last night. I read the the growth of inequality in the world. The voting transcripts of last night’s debate. Unfortunately, I rights within both these bodies are stacked in fav- could not be here as I was attending a conference our of developed states and completely against in New York. I came back this morning to be developing countries. The selection procedure for present at this debate. the IMF and World Bank leaders are totally undemocratic as the presidency of the World Mr. Gormley: Did the Minister of State make Bank is always reserved for a North American. any promises? Voting rights within the IMF are based on the entry fee or share bought by a country when it Mr. C. Lenihan: I made no promises. I was very joins. This share is calculated according to its happy with the contributions and was particularly economic and geopolitical importance. The struck by Deputy Andrews’s suggestion on the number of voting rights to which each country is arms trade. Deputy Michael D. Higgins spoke entitled is based on its share value. It is about the shameful situation in that we live in a unacceptable that the USA has a blocking min- world where the arms trade garners and takes up ority vote. so much human resources in terms of money Many developing states burdened by debt are spent while so little is spent on development aid within their rights under international law to ref- generally throughout the world. Both Deputies use to pay these debts on the basis that the debt expressed very fine sentiments in the debate. is odious, that is, where a despotic power con- Deputy Gregory was right and I take the tracts a debt not according to the needs and opportunity to reaffirm Ireland’s official position interests of the state. The notion of odious debt that we are happy with the G8 decision but that 1199 G8 Summit and Overseas Development Aid: 29 June 2005. Motion (Resumed) 1200

[Mr. C. Lenihan.] far as Irish official policy is concerned, must we are in favour of 100% debt cancellation for include additionality for the countries involved. all heavily indebted nations. Only 18 nations will There must not be debt relief, which is given with benefit from the G8 summit decision and we the one hand, but with less amounts in terms of would like the other 20 nations to benefit as well. volume aid flowing from those institutions, We would like to see debt write-off for all coun- whether IDA or otherwise. tries in similarly distressed situations. Deputy Connolly made a very interesting point Mr. Gormley: On a point of order, will the about aid effectiveness. As we increase the vol- Minister of State be in a position to—— ume of overseas development aid, or official development assistance to the developing world, An Ceann Comhairle: That is not a point of we must guarantee our aid is given in an efficient order. I ask Deputy Gormley to resume his seat. and timely fashion. Last March, as Minister of State representing Ireland, I was proud to pro- Mr. Gormley: The Minister of State has indi- mote this agenda strongly at the OECD in Paris. cated he will take a question. We are now laying down timeframes on aid effec- tiveness. I was one of the first in Europe to call An Ceann Comhairle: The Minister of State for this particular measure and I am glad the has 40 seconds remaining. The Deputy’s party OECD has adopted it. It has adopted a series of will have an opportunity to reply. indicators and it will adopt more by September in a bid to be present, so to speak, at the millennium Mr. Gormley: Will the Minister of State indi- summit in New York in September. We must cate when we will met the 0.7% of GNP? have a timetable for action on aid effectiveness as well because it is not only about increasing vol- An Ceann Comhairle: I ask Deputy Gormley ume amounts. to resume his seat. I am glad to say that while in New York in the Mr. C. Lenihan: My senior Minister made it past day or two, I met Mark Malloch Brown, the quite clear last night, as I will do again, that the head of the UNDP and chief of staff for Kofi Government is placing this matter under active Annan. He again paid generous tribute to the consideration. There have been substantial dis- Irish aid programme for its effectiveness and cussions at Cabinet level on this matter and what we contributed and continue to contribute between myself, Taoiseach, the Minister for Fin- on an ongoing basis. It is another signal that we ance and my senior Minister, Deputy Dermot are doing something right on this issue. He also Ahern. As the Taoiseach indicated this morning made the point, which I have made in this House on radio and as my senior Minister did last night, previously, that my senior Minister, Deputy we will be in a position to put a timeframe in Dermot Ahern, would not have been appointed place ahead of the millennium summit in as an envoy under the UN system to look at the September. That is an absolute commitment by reforms needed in September had we not been this Government. playing our part very generously in respect of I am very proud of the motion the Green Party overseas aid. has tabled, which we welcome. I do not believe I point Deputies to the fact the Action Aid sur- there is a substantial difference between the vey recently rated the Irish aid programme the motion and our amendment. best in the world in terms of the quality of the programme and the way it delivers. That Mr. : The amendment has been reaffirms an earlier assessment by the OECD. We watered down. played a strong part in the recent European com- mitment to bring an extra \20 billion into play in Mr. C. Lenihan: We share many of the senti- terms of development and setting an interim tar- ments. Two Deputies made very disparaging get of 2010 and a final target of 2015 for the Euro- comments about Bono and Bob Geldof during pean countries. The development ministers made the debate this evening. I do not share those sen- that absolute commitment and it was followed up timents. Notwithstanding their obvious celebrity, at the Council of EU leaders which the Taoiseach they are doing an idealistic job and are acting attended. That absolute commitment was made from motives of idealism and I reject the criticism by all 15 of the original member states. of them. The G8 package is welcome but I point out that we need to see the details of it. Far too often in Mr. Cuffe: I wish to talk about solemn commit- the past what seemed to be very generous G8- ments, climate change and fairness. Since the style debt relief measures by the Bretton Woods foundation of this State, Ireland has had an excel- institutions turned out to be far from generous lent reputation in assisting developing regions of when the details were considered. I urge people the world. In the fields of education and health to be somewhat cautious about this particular care, the Irish, initially through the religious announcement. We must see the details which, as orders and in more recent times through the aid 1201 G8 Summit and Overseas Development Aid: 29 June 2005. Motion (Resumed) 1202 agencies, have earned an enviable reputation in are dying every day in the developing world assisting the less well-off of the world. That repu- because he has not made that commitment. tation is in danger of being squandered. In a time The European Commission has already made of unprecedented economic prosperity, it is strong commitments on climate change. It has shameful that reputation is being tarnished. made a commitment of 15-30% reductions by It was tarnished by our Taoiseach reneging on 2020 and 50-80% reductions by 2050. It is crazy the solemn commitment he made on 3 September that Ministers here are continuing as if nothing 2002 when he stated that the decline in overseas will ever change. It is crucial that Ireland plays its development aid in the 1990s was shameful, inde- part and it is about fairness, about contraction fensible and inconsistent with the commitments and convergence. It is about ensuring that people given at Rio. The Taoiseach reiterated Ireland’s in developing countries are given the same kind absolute commitment to achieving by 2007 the of allowances we will be given. We must ratchet UN target of spending 0.7% of GNP on overseas down emissions. If it does not happen on the development assistance. That is what the Minister of State’s watch, it will be much more Taoiseach said but it will not be delivered. That difficult to have reductions in climate change in has damaged Ireland’s reputation in the United the future. We must make that commitment and Nations, with developing countries and in the it is not good enough to water down our motion. international diplomatic sphere. It is not good It is not good enough to avoid the science and to enough to renege on that commitment. avoid the facts. In terms of climate change, Ireland did well Climate change is a science and the Minister of under Kyoto and was given very generous allow- State must give a commitment that he will make ances. However, it will still be an uphill struggle those changes. We must look at what increase in to achieve them. We were allowed a 13% global temperatures is acceptable and we must increase from 1990 until the 2008 to 2012 period. deal with that. We must set a target and work We are already double the increase we were backwards from that. Ireland does not even have given and it will be very difficult to achieve the an up to date climate change strategy. It is years original target within the period. We are close to out of date and we have not seen any commit- the bottom of the league in terms of distance ment to revising that within an appropriate times- cale. I want the Minister of State to make a com- from targets. mitment to achieve what we have put down in The Minister for the Environment, Heritage our motion. I do not want him to do it in a wishy- and Local Government, Deputy Roche, and the washy Fianna Fa´il way, but in a scientific way Minister for Transport, Deputy Cullen, must with a commitment that our Taoiseach gave three switch tack but that is a good news story because years ago. I think that is fair, it is equitable and it will mean improvements in the quality of life, it should be delivered. better bus services, towns and cities designed around people rather than cars, rural bus services, Mr. Sargent: Ba mhaith liom buı´ochas a gabha´il better long distance rail services, a shift in energy ar son an Comhaontais Glais do Theachtaı´ policy to wind turbines, tidal turbines, biomass Neamhsplea´cha agus do na pa´irtithe go le´ir a thu- and away from sugar into ethanol. I am not con- gann tacaı´ocht don ru´ in. Listening to the strong vinced the Government is making that switch and criticism of the Government from Deputy that its heart is in it. There must be a significant O’Donnell, I expect the change in that regard. will also support the motion. It will be difficult and expensive to buy our way I thank the individual NGOs, many of which out of climate change but it will not be a matter are here in the Public Gallery, church groups and of life and death. For people in developing coun- people who have influence, who are making a dif- tries, climate change is already a matter of life ference and working to make poverty history. It and death. In those countries, famine, disease and is welcome that the Government is prepared to poverty, in many instances caused by climate come part of the way along the road to support- change, are already killing people. Subsistence ing our motion, but it is very disappointing that it farmers cannot wait for the rain to come the next is not prepared to support the motion in its year and, as a result, they die. The richest coun- entirety. Instead, the Government has amputated tries in the world are causing climate change. We the bulk of our motion and for the sake of show- are causing it — the G8 and those countries that ing superiority of numbers, is forcing a vote on a have wealth. From a moral perspective, it is watered down amendment. crucial that Ireland plays its part and that we This motion is a call to action. It is a call to assist those countries to the best of our ability. It action for justice, upon which the Green Party is not good enough to talk about what will be would act if in Government. This Government chopped in Ireland in order for us to fulfil our has demonstrated willingness to respond when commitment. It is imperative for the Minister of called upon by another country. After 11 State to make the commitment to increasing our September 2001, when thousands died as a result development aid. Tens of thousands of children of two planes smashing into the twin towers in 1203 G8 Summit and Overseas Development Aid: 29 June 2005. Motion (Resumed) 1204

[Mr. Sargent.] — tea, sugar and copper — constitute 75% of all New York, another plane smashing into the Pen- trade. Between 1997 and 2001, the price index of tagon and another crashing in Pennsylvania, all at each fell by more than 50%. the hands of hijackers, the Government unques- As a start, let the Government state that it will tioningly acceded to the wishes of the US do what it must do to levy the Tobin tax on inter- Government for an increase in refuelling and national financial transactions. Ireland has a role overflights of high-tech killing machines. If four to stress that famine is not an option and that airplanes crash causing less than four thousand selling arms to the poor is not an option. That deaths in one day, bringing about so much focus, goes for Shannon Airport as much as the prayers and even a toleration and complicit co- comfortable suggestion of taxing the arms trade, operation with an illegal and bloody invasion of which will hardly affect Ireland. By an accident Iraq, what would be the response of the Govern- of history and the work of people like Frank ment if an equivalent of 300 jumbo jets crashed Aiken, Sea´n McBride, Mary Robinson, John every day? The equivalent of 300 jumbo jets O’Shea and Bob Geldof, Bono and others, crashing every day is 40 million people per Ireland has some moral authority to set the annum, which is the estimated total who die from agenda. Does the Government have the courage hunger and hunger related diseases, as well as to say that we must live more simply so that AIDS. Half of the passengers on these virtual air- others can simply live? This month, the Royal planes are children. If the Da´il was to respond to Society of Scientists in the UK, along with the world hunger and poverty in anything like the authors of the report, “Africa — Up in Smoke”, way it responded to the attacks on 11 September warned the G8 leaders that unless deeper cuts in 2001, we would work on this issue every day of emissions of CO2 gases take place and unless every week until avoidable hunger and disease funding goes to environmental regeneration such was ended. as re-afforestation, we will not see an end to Our motion sets out a template for this work, poverty. including debt cancellation, trade justice, Does the Government have any residual integ- restricting the arms trade, climate change and — rity left to keep its word? The wrist bands that the Minister of State does not need reminding — many of us are wearing remind the Minister of the commitment to increase overseas develop- State to keep his word. The commitment to ment aid to 0.7% of GNP by 2007, as was prom- increase overseas development aid to 0.7% of ised. Debt cancellation requires cutting a deal GNP by 2007 is the promise that has been with the debt holders. For the Government, this broken. Before travelling to New York for the is the biggest peace process of all. I ask the UN Millennium Summit in September, we ask Taoiseach to bring it on. As someone who claims that the Minister of State and the Taoiseach bring to be a negotiator, let us see how serious he is this House back from the recess to state clearly when it comes to dealing with world poverty. the date for the implementation of that promise. Trade justice is denied to most post-colonial They could at least restore some of the lost integ- poor countries. The world trading system is cor- rity and trust that has damaged this Government rupt and unjust and free trade is compounding irreparably. these problems. It is time to change the rules. For The poor have given the rich cheap tea, cheap example, 25 million coffee producers face ruin as coffee, raw materials and oil over the years. In the price of coffee has fallen 50% in the past turn, we ask the Government to support the three years. Farmers are selling at heavy losses. motion in the spirit of consensus building to Vietnamese farmers get only 60% of production create international solidarity between the Irish costs. Is it any wonder desperate farmers turn to people and the poor. It is only with leadership producing heroin and cocaine and exporting mis- from countries like Ireland as a post-colonial ery to the west? The west created that misery for nation that poverty will be made history. I ask those farmers in the first place by impoverishing Members, please, to support the motion. them. In the poorest 48 countries, three products Amendment put.

The Da´il divided: Ta´, 72; Nı´l, 59.

Ta´

Ahern, Michael. Carey, Pat. Ahern, Noel. Carty, John. Andrews, Barry. Cassidy, Donie. Ardagh, Sea´n. Collins, Michael. Blaney, Niall. Cowen, Brian. Brady, Johnny. Cregan, John. Brady, Martin. Cullen, Martin. Brennan, Seamus. Curran, John. Browne, John. Davern, Noel. Callanan, Joe. Dempsey, Noel. Callely, Ivor. Dempsey, Tony. 1205 Driver Testing and Standards Authority 29 June 2005. Bill 2004: Second Stage (Resumed) 1206

Ta´—continued

Dennehy, John. Moloney, John. Devins, Jimmy. Moynihan, Donal. Ellis, John. Moynihan, Michael. Fahey, Frank. Mulcahy, Michael. Finneran, Michael. Nolan, M.J. Fitzpatrick, Dermot. O´ Cuı´v, E´ amon. Fleming, Sea´n. O´ Fearghaı´l, Sea´n. Fox, Mildred. O’Dea, Willie. Gallagher, Pat The Cope. O’Donnell, Liz. Glennon, Jim. O’Donovan, Denis. Grealish, Noel. O’Flynn, Noel. Hanafin, Mary. O’Keeffe, Batt. Haughey, Sea´n. O’Keeffe, Ned. Hoctor, Ma´ire. O’Malley, Fiona. Keaveney, Cecilia. O’Malley, Tim. Kelleher, Billy. Parlon, Tom. Kelly, Peter. Power, Peter. Killeen, Tony. Power, Sea´n. Kirk, Seamus. Roche, Dick. Kitt, Tom. Sexton, Mae. Lenihan, Brian. Smith, Brendan. Lenihan, Conor. Smith, Michael. Martin, Michea´l. Treacy, Noel. McEllistrim, Thomas. Walsh, Joe. McGuinness, John. Woods, Michael.

Nı´l

Allen, Bernard. McGrath, Paul. Boyle, Dan. McHugh, Paddy. Breen, James. McManus, Liz. Breen, Pat. Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda. Broughan, Thomas P. Murphy, Catherine. Burton, Joan. Murphy, Gerard. Connaughton, Paul. Naughten, Denis. Connolly, Paudge. Neville, Dan. Costello, Joe. Noonan, Michael. Coveney, Simon. O´ Caola´in, Caoimhghı´n. Cowley, Jerry. O´ Snodaigh, Aengus. Crawford, Seymour. O’Dowd, Fergus. Cuffe, Ciara´n. O’Shea, Brian. Deasy, John. O’Sullivan, Jan. Deenihan, Jimmy. Pattison, Seamus. Durkan, Bernard J. Penrose, Willie. Enright, Olwyn. Perry, John. Gilmore, Eamon. Rabbitte, Pat. Gogarty, Paul. Ring, Michael. Gormley, John. Ryan, Eamon. Gregory, Tony. Ryan, Sea´n. Harkin, Marian. Sargent, Trevor. Hayes, Tom. Sherlock, Joe. Higgins, Joe. Shortall, Ro´ isı´n. Higgins, Michael D. Stagg, Emmet. Hogan, Phil. Stanton, David. Howlin, Brendan. Twomey, Liam. Lynch, Kathleen. Upton, Mary. McCormack, Padraic. Wall, Jack. McGrath, Finian.

Tellers: Ta´, Deputies Kitt and Kelleher; Nı´l, Deputies Boyle and Stagg.

Amendment declared carried. public safety, particularly in the transport and vehicle sector. There is an onus on every legis- Motion, as amended, put and declared carried. lator and politician to ensure school buses are safe for school pupils and students. The number Driver Testing and Standards Authority Bill of Bus E´ ireann buses with seat belts is 1,539, 2004: Second Stage (Resumed). while 1,493 buses are without seat belts. These figures, which are the most current and accurate Question again proposed: “That the Bill be figures available, relate to a survey undertaken now read a Second Time.” by Bus E´ ireann in October 2004. Given that 1,493 Mr. F. McGrath: The debate on this Bill is buses do not have seat belts, it is evident that we important because we are dealing with issues of have a major problem. We must face up to this 1207 Driver Testing and Standards Authority 29 June 2005. Bill 2004: Second Stage (Resumed) 1208

[Mr. F. McGrath.] standards to be met by the authority in the dis- matter. I appeal to the Minister to ensure these charge of its functions; the placing of a duty on buses are brought up to date and provided with the authority to promote the development and proper seat belts. We have already seen the nega- improvement of driving standards and a duty to tive impact of this and the many accidents that conduct its business at all times in a cost-effective have occurred. and efficient manner. On a positive note, there are many examples The Bill also proposes a policy direction by the of good practice in providing safety on buses for Minister to the authority. I welcome the section schoolchildren. My experience is of the services that achieves this because it is very important. dealing with St. Michael’s House, particularly on The Minister must provide leadership on this the north side of Dublin. I witness daily how chil- issue. I urge the Minister of State to do so in dren with disabilities are supervised in a very pro- respect of public safety because leadership must fessional manner when they are collected from come from the top. their homes. I commend the staff of St. Michael’s House and especially the people involved in the Mr. Callely: I am always happy to show bus company that provides this excellent service. leadership. Not only have they safe, up-to-date and modern buses for the children, there are also excellent Mr. F. McGrath: The purpose of the Bill is also staff on board the buses. Children are properly to provide for the appointment of a board of supervised before the bus moves off and seat directors and a chief executive officer. I hope this belts are put on them. The staff are most pro- will be achieved in a very professional and objec- gressive and thoughtful. Thousands of families tive manner. The Bill will also provide for the appreciate that very much. We must examine auditing of the authority’s accounts by the seriously the issue of buses which still do not have Comptroller and Auditor General, and the pro- seat belts. If it is not acceptable in a private car, duction of an annual report to the Minister by it cannot be acceptable for a school bus service. the authority. I welcome these provisions because Regarding the broader issue of standards and they are very positive and secure. driver testing, it is important that the preparation Section 13 provides that the Minister shall des- for testing is professionally done. We must accept ignate a member of the board to be chairperson that this will be a major issue in coming years for a term of office of five years. This is a fair as motorways become more common. Motorways provision. It allows the chairman time to settle are generally safe and have reduced accident lev- into the job and, subsequently, to get on with the els. It is important that more care is taken on job. At all times, the chairperson will have a very minor roads, particularly in rural areas where responsible and key role. many tragic accidents occur. Motorists have a Section 16 provides for the transfer of staff responsibility to be careful and fair to other from the Department of Transport to the auth- road users. ority and for the appointment of staff to the auth- Many cyclists can be irresponsible at times. ority. The section provides that the terms and There is a duty on them to act responsibly. When conditions of employment of staff transferred driving into the Da´il, we regularly see cyclists from the Department of Transport shall not be clipping our cars, breaking lights and generally less favourable than those already enjoyed by the behaving badly. We should not be afraid to say staff and that scales of pay to which such staff this although it might not be politically correct. were entitled shall continue to apply, unless The reality is that many cyclists do not adhere to agreed otherwise with a recognised trade union the rules of the road and this should be made or staff association. This section also provides plain to them. Motorists have major concerns in that the number of persons and the grades of staff this regard. Some people consider that cyclists of the authority shall be determined by the board should undergo a test on road safety because with the consent of the Minister with the agree- there are many bad ones. Jumping lights, clipping ment of the Minister for Finance. This section cars and driving on footpaths are not safety must be considered seriously. We must have the options. Pedestrians, cyclists and motorists should full support of the staff and they must be commit- be responsible. It is very important that we bear ted and dedicated. I welcome the provision that a certain amount of personal responsibility. the terms and conditions of employment of staff The purpose of the Bill is to provide for the transferred from the Department of Transport assignment of additional related functions to the shall not be less favourable than those already driver testing and standards authority; the per- enjoyed by the staff of the authority. formance by the authority of its functions by I also welcome the fact negotiations must be means of outsourcing, the establishment of sub- held with a recognised union or staff association sidiaries and participation in companies; the mak- as staff interests must be looked after. As a ing of a “service agreement” between the Mini- former active trade unionist, I believe this is very ster and the authority which will set the functions important because there is a decline in trade and tasks to be carried out and the performance union membership, particularly in sections of the 1209 Driver Testing and Standards Authority 29 June 2005. Bill 2004: Second Stage (Resumed) 1210 private sector. I recently had the experience of sible, careful and professional people are dealing with a company the staff of which were involved in the transport industry. In fairness to not members of a trade union and who suffered many of them, there are examples of good quality the consequent negative effects. In this regard, drivers in the State. However, we must be con- section 16 is relevant and a reminder to us all that stantly vigilant to ensure the safety of passengers, we should ensure the trade union movement and particularly young people. recognised staff associations are given a positive We should reward good driving practice, be it role in respect of the driver testing and stan- that of personnel in the private sector or public dards authority. sector. A reward system should apply to excellent Section 28 provides that the authority will drivers who have served for years without having make an annual report to the Minister in such been in an accident or the subject of a complaint. form as he or she may direct not later than six If somebody who has been driving for Bus months after the end of each financial year and E´ ireann for 30 years has an excellent road safety for the annual report to be laid by the Minister record and a commitment to the safety of chil- before the Houses of the Oireachtas. This section dren, he or she should be recognised and is very important because it is about account- rewarded. Any progressive Minister would con- ability and people facing up to their responsibil- sider this proposal because it is very important. ities and ensuring they will provide a professional A constituent of mine feels there is a number and quality service. We have noted examples of loopholes regarding the way mechanics and recently where standards in the public service engineers examine school buses. Given that the have not been up to scratch. It is important that constituent has made this allegation, the onus is an annual report be made to the Minister not on me to put on the Da´il record the fact that later than six months after the end of each finan- people are concerned that some of the buses on cial year and that it be laid before the Houses of the road might not necessarily be of the highest the Oireachtas. This will ensure Members will standard. I urge the Minister to address this. have the opportunity to debate it and make I welcome the Bill. This debate is very recommendations. Ultimately, Members are try- important because the question of public safety, ing to improve road safety and driver testing including driver safety, is very important. standards. It is very important that we consider the Bill in Debate adjourned. great detail in respect of public safety, including driver safety and the safety of cyclists. As I stated, Personal Statement by Member. we have a responsibility to ensure that high public Mr. J. Higgins: On 15 June I stated in the Da´il safety standards are set, particularly in respect of that the multinational corporation General Elec- the safety of children. Drink driving is no longer tric was involved in a legal manoeuvre to compel an option for the vast majority of motorists. We the Industrial Development Authority to pay mil- have made progress in this regard but we must lions of euro for land belonging properly to the face up to the reality that there is a small minority , and that General Electric used these of drivers who are not adhering to the standards. proceeds to finance pressurised redundancies at a We must accept responsibility for this, as must company called Diamond Innovations. I am the individuals concerned. We must ensure they reliably informed that the company in Clon- are guided in the right direction, otherwise there shaugh Industrial Estate responsible for the legal will be major negative consequences on our scam at the expense of the taxpayer was not GE roads, particularly a decline in safety standards. or Diamond Innovations. I made the initial state- The Bill contains some very important con- ment in good faith on foot of information sup- structive elements, which I welcome. We must plied. However, that was incorrect and the state- have standards and a strong emphasis on public ment that GE or Diamond Innovations was safety, including driver safety. It is particularly involved was also incorrect. I wish to express my sad to hear about the high number of people who regret in that regard. are injured while driving. Sometimes their acci- dents do not make the newspapers. One usually hears about the tragic deaths. When the issue of Driver Testing and Standards Authority Bill injuries becomes topical, it is usually dropped as 2004: Second Stage (Resumed). a topic in newspapers within a matter of days. Every year, many people are seriously injured Question again proposed: “That the Bill be and disabled and suffer very badly because of now read a Second Time.” accidents. Mr. Cassidy: I wish to share time with Deputy The elements of the Bill I have outlined are McGuinness. I will be brief as much ground has all very important. It is important that we ensure been covered. I am Chairman of the Oireachtas school transport services are afforded the Committee on Enterprise and Small Business and maximum support and that funding is not an issue we have been carrying out work with regard to in their provision. We must ensure that respon- the insurance industry. It is of the utmost import- 1211 Driver Testing and Standards Authority 29 June 2005. Bill 2004: Second Stage (Resumed) 1212

[Mr. Cassidy.] Deputy Finian McGrath spoke about the ance that this Bill passes through all Stages before school bus system. I express my sympathies to all the summer recess. Some 350,000 drivers are still concerned in the tragic accident. Much can be waiting to obtain full licences. People have waited learned from that event and we must learn as we long over their time in terms of what they require. go along. The school bus fleet leaves much to be I compliment the Minister and Government on desired in terms of safety and the average age of bringing this legislation before the House. Four vehicles. We must examine best practice in other Bills were promised to deal with insurance. The countries and immediately apply it here. If invest- Personal Injuries Assessment Board ment is needed, which it undoubtedly is, then the 9 o’clock was established and the Civil Liab- State should not fall short in making the money ility and Courts Act, which dealt with available to the operators or those involved in fraudulence, came before the House. Those who ensuring the safe transport of children from home make fraudulent claims will be punished and to school. Whatever is required to attain that fined and made to pay the entire costs for any level of safety, whether it is carers or seatbelts, claim found to be fraudulent. This is the last of should be provided and adhered to. I encourage the four promised health and safety Bills and I the Minister of State to pass on the message of congratulate the Taoiseach and Government on this debate to the relevant Minister. There is una- what they are doing. nimity in the House in terms of what needs to be There are between 60,000 and 70,000 uninsured done with the school bus service. vehicles in Ireland at this time which is The service also needs to be modernised and unacceptable. Some 375,000 drivers are without made more flexible in the context of the families full licences. A significant tightening up is who will occasionally require it. Too much required. I am calling for the speedy establish- bureaucracy is attached to the implementation of ment of the traffic corps which we witnessed first school bus routes in this country and there is too hand in New York where it has proved very suc- little application of common sense with regard to cessful. The monitoring of the penalty points the route and standards which need to be adhered system has been lax since the first six months of to. I join Deputy Finian McGrath in asking for its introduction. It was initially a great success, action in this area sooner rather than later. but people know it is not being monitored in the Money should not stop the modernisation of the way they expected and are adding another 5 and school bus fleet. ten miles to their speed. As a result of its traffic When discussing the legislation, we must also corps, crime in certain parts of New York fell by highlight the need for special funds for urban 30% because criminals had to get from A to B. areas. Too many local authorities, county and These are some of the points we have picked borough councils and corporations must deal with up and gained experienced of in the course of our the increase of planning applications, the con- insurance inquiry and I bring them to the atten- struction of new roads and the implementation of tion of the Minister of State. I wish the Bill a safety measures within a very confined budget. speedy passage. At the same time, they must provide the neces- sary road signage, which is currently deplorable. Mr. McGuinness: I compliment Deputy It is very difficult to follow road signs, of which Cassidy on his chairmanship of the committee of there is a lack in certain areas. It is unhelpful to which I was a member in 1997 during my first tourists and to those who cautiously move along term in the Da´il. I realise the valuable work the roads and motorways, looking for exits and undertaken by the committee and the impact it points of destination. I would encourage greater has in encouraging new legislation that will help investment in general signposting and the proper those seeking licenses and insurance as well as mapping out of urban centres in terms of signage, the business sector. This legislation is also to be as well as safety and cautionary signs. Little fund- welcomed. ing is made available to local authorities in this The issue raised by the Deputy regarding regard. We must recognise the shortcomings of insurance is one on which the committee has road networking in urban centres and provide worked extremely hard. I am aware of the work funding. People drive on these roads, subject to it does and continues to do and it is yielding the signs, and this also applies to those sitting results. Fleet insurance is beginning to shown tests. signs of decreasing, in some cases by up to 20%, The country has experienced considerable provided one fulfils certain employer obligations. growth in prosperity and each household now has I confess my interest in this regard. It is essential two or three cars. Public transport is very poor in that the committee continues to highlight prob- rural Ireland in terms of connectivity with urban lems within the insurance industry, maintains centres and inter-urban routes. It needs to be pressure with regard to the need for change in developed and this slow process is being legislation and ensures that insurance companies embarked upon. However, it should be delivered are answerable to the committee and appear to with greater efficiency. have a role in the context of their dealings with Young people need other forms of transport fleet and individual insurance and the way in and many are queuing up to take their driving which standards are set and maintained. I com- test. Many rely on it to get a job and employers mend Deputy Cassidy on his work in this regard. are often forced to supply the would-be driver 1213 Driver Testing and Standards Authority 29 June 2005. Bill 2004: Second Stage (Resumed) 1214 with a letter stating that they have a job subject will be not less than six and not more than 11. to passing the test. Those appointed to the board should have a rel- It highlights the frustration, particularly of evance to the authority and should have certain young people seeking employment, and of many qualifications to assist them in serving on the others who are relying on a system which is board. That is very relevant in the context of road creaking under pressure to deliver tests. safety, quality of instructors and so on. Perhaps The legislation is timely. I hope it has an the bodies that represent driving instructors or efficient passage through this House and that the the consumer should be represented on the board parts of the Bill aimed at delivering driving tests of the authority. to those that are waiting on the list — Deputy I have argued on many pieces of legislation Cassidy gave a figure of 370,000 — will result in about accountability to this House. I am pleased such people getting their tests earlier, from that under section 27 there is an obligation on the people who are qualified and who understand board that is appointed to account to the what is required on our roads and motorways. Comptroller and Auditor General. Far too often The waiting times in some areas, particularly in in legislation passed in this House we have Carlow-Kilkenny, are simply unacceptable. The ignored the responsibility we have, as legislators fact that in some cases and on some days people to take the financial accounts of the bodies that have to travel from Dublin to Kilkenny to carry we appoint, to peruse them, comment on and out those tests is also an indication of how the analyse them and to make recommendations. As system is creaking and in need of reform. vice-chairman of the Committee of Public Having looked at the waiting lists that exist and Accounts, I am glad to say we are taking a far the number of accidents occurring on our roads, more rigorous view of bodies and are ensuring there is a need for testers to be fully qualified and straight talking regarding those bodies, or up-to-speed with changes in terms of European quangos, that are accountable to the House. On standards and what is required on Irish roads. a regular basis we invite such entities to appear There is also a need for concentration relating to before us and ensure they answer the appropriate the instruction being undertaken by those waiting questions, including those put to members of the on the lists. I know many young people who are committee by the general public. This is a good anxious to have some off-road learning, to have example of legislation that includes provisions a site, perhaps a private one, available to them which recognise the need for greater account- where they could begin their driving instruction ability in the context of how we do our business at a cost effective and affordable price. Their as legislators. future employment prospects rely on the cost There is a need to look at the heavy goods being affordable. Otherwise, we will find more vehicles and how they are licensed. I am glad the and more people taking a chance, going out on Minister for Transport in his recent communi- the roads uninsured and without a licence. There cations — he has many of them relating to are far too many uninsured people and some have Members of the House — has outlined the agree- no licence either. We need to understand why ment he has made with the Irish Road Haulage they are there, rather than simply going after Association. I know he has had many meetings them and catching them, ensure they are brought with that organisation, that various issues of rel- back within the system, are encouraged by an evance were discussed and agreements were affordable testing system to take instruction and reached. I see the association having a major role a test and qualify and obtain the appropriate to play with regard to safety on our roads. I know insurance. Unfortunately, as the Joint Committee sites are being looked at in the context of provid- on Enterprise and Small Business, chaired by ing instruction and testing for heavy goods Deputy Cassidy, has highlighted time and again, vehicles and I hope that Kilkenny will be a real the type of insurance required is simply out of player in that regard. There is a need to ensure reach of many people, particularly the young. counties outside those with the main cities have In the context of the provisions of this Bill, I a role to play in the context of instruction and am glad that under section 9 it will be open to the testing for heavy goods vehicles. authority to engage in the publication and pro- We have seen many reports, on “Prime Time” duction of materials relating to the promotion of and elsewhere, on the road haulage area. I came better driving standards. I am told by those that from that industry and was a driver of a heavy provide driving instruction that they have to go goods vehicle in my earlier life. Drivers of such to the United Kingdom to get the most up-to-date vehicles can contribute both positively and nega- information on signage and instruction for those tively but with a small amount of work with their taking a test or driving on public roads. The Irish representative body, they could have an enor- equivalent of such information is simply non- mously positive contribution to make. I urge the existent or else is so out of date that it is not rel- Minister to continue his work with that body to evant. A number of Irish driving instructors have ensure we have a greater degree of safety relative been purchasing material from the authorities in to the type of vehicles that are on the road and the United Kingdom and adapting it to Irish the type of testing that is conducted. The ongoing needs and the standards that are set here. participation of the representative body, either Likewise, under section 12, I am glad the with the new authority or directly with the Mini- numbers appointed to the board of the authority ster, is absolutely essential. 1215 Driver Testing and Standards Authority 29 June 2005. Bill 2004: Second Stage (Resumed) 1216

[Mr. McGuinness.] eral road safety to the authority. It is proposed The National Car Test has concerned me for that the Bill be amended to include enabling pro- quite some time, particularly the length of time it visions which will allow for the transfer to the takes to organise a test, as is also the case with authority of additional functions with a bearing the tests for heavy goods vehicles. We should get on road safety. The functions include the pro- to a point with this legislation and the conduct of motion of road safety awareness. The Bill already our business with both the private motorists and provides that the authority will have a general haulage companies where we are able to deliver duty to promote the development and improve- a test almost immediately with no waiting time. ment of driving standards. In this context it is It was brought to my attention recently that taxis appropriate that road safety education and pro- often have to wait an unreasonable length of time motion be transferred to the authority. to have even a new vehicle tested. That is very The feasibility of transferring the Department’s unfair and should be dealt with immediately. The responsibility for functions relating to vehicle cost for the yearly test for a taxi is unacceptably standards, much of which derives from EU legis- high. Taxi drivers are delivering a service and try- lation, is also being considered. It is suggested ing to make ends meet but the regulation and the that some of the detail and technical aspects of bureaucracy that surrounds the system has grown this work might be appropriate to transfer to the to a point where it is inefficient and not cost authority. effective. It needs to be adjusted to take account It may also be appropriate that aspects of road of the demands of the marketplace. safety research be transferred to the authority If we are making changes in this area, we which will effectively have a significant input into should begin by showing the Irish Road Haulage road safety through driver training and testing Association and the taxi drivers’ representative and vehicle testing. Areas relating to road haul- bodies that we are serious about our business, age may be appropriate to the authority, as understand their difficulties and are able to adjust referred to by a previous speaker, my good friend the system to create one that is more efficient, and colleague, Deputy McGuinness. Given the cost effective and will address their problems. likely remit of the authority, we should consider That is a challenge for the Minister and if he rises a change of name for the authority and this was to it and works at it he will achieve a lot for all of those involved in the industry, resulting in a referred to by a number of speakers in the debate greater awareness of safety and of the positive tonight, including another good friend of mine on contribution road hauliers and taxi drivers can the Opposition benches, Deputy Stanton. make in the context of making our roads safe and Many Deputies observed that the Bill does not the industry more efficient. make specific provisions as to the manner in which the authority will carry out its functions. Minister of State at the Department of Trans- The Bill defines the functions of the authority and port (Mr. Callely): I thank Deputies for their provides for an organisational structure within positive contributions to the debate. I acknowl- which the authority will operate. It sets out the edge the general welcome afforded to the Bill by responsibilities of the chief executive officer who Members of the House. will report to the board and provide that the In the course of the debate, Deputies raised authority will be empowered to engage in certain issues, some of which directly relate to the Bill commercial activities and to borrow money. and others to road safety in general. The purpose Crucially it requires the authority to carry out its of the Bill is to establish the Driver Testing and functions to certain standards as determined by Standards Authority whose primary responsi- the Minister of the day. It will be a matter for the bility will be the delivery of the driver testing chief executive officer and the board to deter- service. However, I can confirm to the House that mine how best to carry out the functions assigned consultants engaged by my Department have to the authority. recommended that the DTSA be given a broader Deputy Ryan made a specific reference to the remit to make it a more viable organisation and creation of a board to oversee the work of the enable it to better contribute to issues of road authority. Section 12 of the Bill sets out specific safety. I agree with a number of speakers who criteria for the selection of membership of the suggested considering options for a wider road board, as referred to by Deputy McGuinness. safety remit for the DTSA. This may present an Given the range of functions to be discharged by enhanced prospect for integrating and improving the authority, the board will have a significant road safety functions. I have had numerous meet- responsibility for giving direction and support to ings with the insurance industry and am confident the CEO and staff of the authority. I congratulate it would welcome the prospect of integrating and Mr. Noel Brett who has been appointed as chief improving road safety functions. executive officer of the authority and wish him I am advised that the establishment of a separ- well in his role. ate public sector body to deliver the driving test- Deputies called for reform of the driver licens- ing service and take responsibility for other func- ing system and the registration of driving instruc- tions more appropriate to an executive agency tors. The strategy for road safety 2004-2006 states than to a Department is also an opportunity for that driver licensing regulations will be amended the assignment of other functions relating to gen- to discourage long-term reliance on provisional 1217 Driver Testing and Standards Authority 29 June 2005. Bill 2004: Second Stage (Resumed) 1218 licences. A range of measures to achieve this goal Deputy Olivia Mitchell referred to motorcycle is under consideration in my Department. accidents and I agree with her that this is an area The issue of the accountability of the new auth- of concern. Motorcycle riders are especially vul- ority to the Oireachtas was also raised. The chief nerable on the roads. The road safety strategy executive officer will be responsible for the pro- 2004-2006 proposes an implementation of a prog- priety of the authority’s accounts and the econ- ramme of compulsory initial practical training for omic and efficient use of its resources and will be motorcyclists. Work is ongoing with financial sup- accountable to any committee of the Houses of port being given to the Irish Rider Training the Oireachtas set up to examine its affairs. The Association to facilitate the development of a Bill provides that the chief executive officer shall network of motorcycle instructors which is an have regard to any recommendations of such essential prerequisite for any programme of com- committee relevant to the authority’s functions. pulsory training. Many of the contributions from Deputies I do not believe there is a need for compulsory focused on the driving test and the means by training as the instructors are available. I hope which it could be improved. I concur with those more motorcyclists will avail of the existing prog- seeking enhancement and improvement of the rammes. As a motorcyclist myself I was recently test. The test follows an EU standard and it is approached by a noted well-known media per- similar to the test in the North and in the United sonality who, like me, is back motorbiking follow- Kingdom. It is interesting to note that testing on ing a period of years off the bike. He brought to motorways or night-time testing is not a feature my attention the motorbike course run by Fingal of the test in these islands. Despite this, the UK County Council on which I congratulate the has a relatively good road safety record when council. The Garda Sı´ocha´na also organises an compared with other EU countries. excellent training course and commercial instruc- The purpose of the test is to assess whether a tors are also available. Motorcyclists should be person has reached a certain standard of driving encouraged to avail of these courses. A working competence. Deputy Stanton stated that passing group has also been established to examine the the test does not mean a person is an excellent standards that must apply to such training and driver and ready to take on any situation and this how such training might be delivered. point struck a chord with me. The process of Deputies referred to long waiting times for developing further driving skills and experience driving tests. I accept the point that there should is ongoing over years. be little or no waiting period for a motorist who The issue of variations in the pass rate at differ- is ready to take the test to be called for it. That ent test centres was raised. This is a fact of life is the service I would like to see in place. My and is also the case in other countries. Various officials in consultation with the Department of reasons have been advanced, such as demo- Finance agreed a package of measures to reduce graphic factors and standards of instruction. The the numbers on waiting lists by up to 80,000 by Bill gives the authority the responsibility for the regulation of driving instruction. This will require the end of next year. Engagement with unions those in the industry to meet predetermined stan- about the implementation of these measures has dards which will cover not only their own ability commenced. The measures include an additional to drive but will also ensure that those meeting productivity incentive in the form of a bonus the standard will have the necessary instructional scheme for testers, the details of which have to skills to deliver the message to the novice driver. be finalised in consultation with the staff, the The registration process will benefit driving recruitment of additional driver testers as well as instructors. Persons taking lessons will have outsourcing a block of tests to an outside body. greater confidence in the quality of instruction An outsourcing option is necessary to make sig- given and this will lead to better and safer drivers. nificant inroads into the backlog of tests within a Deputy Shortall and others raised a specific reasonable timeframe. The outsourcing arrange- issue concerning the treatment of existing driving ments will include provisions to ensure that a con- instructors. All instructors must demonstrate that sistent and high standard of test is delivered. they have reached the required standard in the There is no question of allowing standards to slip. interests of ensuring an appropriate standard of I wish to clarify the number of driving testers instruction applies throughout the country. Dur- employed. There are 117 testers, six of whom ing the period of transition when all new instruc- were formerly retired. The number is one fewer tors will be required to undergo appropriate tests, than at this time last year and compares to 66 existing instructors who can show they are bona testers in 1998. In addition to the testing corps, fide instructors will be allowed to continue there is a chief tester and ten supervisory testers. instructing before undergoing the appropriate I was asked about the gender balance among competency tests. The length of the transition driving testers. Eight of the 117 testers are period and the manner in which the competency female. I encourage females to apply for the posi- of existing instructors is assessed during that tion of driving tester and there is no barrier to period will be considered in the context of the prevent females from joining the driving tester drafting of regulations to require instructors to be service. When these figures become known, we registered to give instruction for reward and the might be able to encourage more females to join establishment of the authority. this service. 1219 Driver Testing and Standards Authority 29 June 2005. Bill 2004: Second Stage (Resumed) 1220

[Mr. Callely.] responsible than the previous generation in many Deputy Ring asked whether staff from my aspects related to motoring, in terms of—— Department joining the DTSA would retain their Civil Service status. The proposal is to transfer Mr. Stanton: I fully agree with the Minister of members of staff to the authority with a guaran- State. tee that their existing terms and conditions will be protected. I am concerned that the retention Mr. Callely: ——in terms of speed, the con- of Civil Service status and the consequent align- sumption of alcohol and everything else that goes ment of the grading structure in the new authority to ensure road safety and good driving. I take this with Civil Service structures might prove to be opportunity to congratulate our young people on overly restrictive on the authority in carrying out their responsible attitude in the manner in which its functions, which may require a more flexible they go about their driving. I hope the insurance staffing structure to apply. Nonetheless, I recog- companies will acknowledge that and accommo- nise that staff have genuine concerns that I am date them by offering them more appropriate prepared to consider with a view to alleviating renewal premiums. In response to such a request them in the most effective way possible without the insurance companies will point out that they compromising the ability of the DTSA to deliver must examine the statistics and that when there a quality service. I intend the process of setting is an improvement in that respect they might be up the DTSA to be open and transparent and to able to accommodate that request. I hope that go forward in the spirit of partnership with all the working together we will be able to continue to staff associations. make the types of developments we have wit- I do not accept Deputy Ring’s characterisation nessed such as the one to which I referred regard- of the legislation and the setting up of the DTSA ing the responsible attitude of young motorists. as a money making racket. Safety on our roads is The National Safety Council has developed a an extremely important issue and this Bill is a number of educational programmes for pupils of serious attempt to tackle it. primary and secondary schools. The Garda Sı´och- During the debate many Deputies referred to a´na has a great programme in place involving a the accident rate among young people. There is limited number of personnel. The Garda Com- no doubt that young people, particularly young missioner might consider increasing the number males, are over-represented in accident statistics. of gardaı´ involved in that safety programme. There are the consequences that young people There are great programmes available to schools. can under-estimate danger while driving and The National Safety Council focuses on younger over-estimate their driving ability and skills. Nov- road users. A strategy of its safety awareness ice drivers do not have the same level of auto- campaign is that it is very much directed at the matic driving skills as experienced drivers and young driver. such skills take time to develop. A number of Deputies referred to a captive A national analysis of young driver accidents in audience among secondary school pupils in tran- 2000 carried out by the National Roads Authority sition year in terms of participating in such prog- highlights the scope of the problem. In 2000, the rammes. I support the view that this opportunity fatality rate was much higher for those aged 18 to should be explored in greater detail. 24 than for any other age cohort. The death rate A noted driver with a successful track record in the age group 18 to 24 years was more than ten in motoring, particularly in rallying driving, and a times higher for males than for females. This is good friend of mine, Rosemary Smith, has been also reflected in the difficulties facing young promoting a programme for some time that people in obtaining motor insurance at a reason- would be of enormous benefit if targeted at tran- able premium. The most frequent occurring error sition year students. A difficulty in introducing for young drivers involved in two-vehicle colli- such a programme, as pointed out by a number sions is exceeding the safe speed limit. of Deputies, would be the manner in which it There is a perception that provisional licence could be rolled out nationally. While we can drivers are more involved in accidents but there examine that, there are other steps we could take is no substantial evidence to support this view. Of to explore opportunities, particularly in co-oper- the 232,820 drivers who incurred penalty points ation with the National Safety Council, the Garda as of 30 April 2005, only 6% were provisional Sı´ocha´na and the Department of Education and licence holders. The formation of good attitudes Science, in regard to the curriculum and oppor- to driving is of particular importance. Accord- tunity presented in transition year. ingly, young people are the target of much effort Deputy Stanton referred to the opportunity to promote road safety in Ireland and in other presented in this area during transition year and countries. he referred to substance abuse. He referred to Deputy Stanton mentioned that two of his chil- two other points to which I wish to refer, one dren are coming into the league of young motor- being the impact of tiredness on motorists. I ists and I am in the same class as the Deputy in clearly signal that tiredness can kill, a point to that respect. I note the responsible attitude to which Deputy Stanton alluded. I encourage local driving not only among my children but among authorities to place a warning sign to this effect their friends. I have the height of admiration for — as I have witnessed in some counties but more young motorists today. They seem to be far more particularly overseas — in their catchment areas. 1221 Driver Testing and Standards Authority 29 June 2005. Bill 2004: Referral to Select Committee 1222

Records show that tiredness can kill. Deputy Member of the House if there is an issue with Stanton also referred to pedestrians and cyclists. local authorities in terms of directional, safety or I encourage local authorities to favourably exam- other road signage that is required. ine pedestrian and cycling strategies as these are important factors if we are to encourage people Mr. Neville: Will the Minister of State mind if to walk and to cycle, a point to which the I take this up with Limerick County Council on Deputy alluded. his behalf? Deputy Cassidy raised the issue of the cost of motor insurance. I am pleased to inform the Mr. Callely: I will be happy to meet any council House that I have had one to one meetings with in that regard. the chief executive of each insurance company operating in Ireland and I have also had a round Mr. Neville: The Minister of State does not table meeting on this issue. I am progressing in have to meet the council. He just has to take up such interaction with the insurance companies to the issue with it. address a number of issues to which Deputy Cassidy referred. Mr. Callely: I ask every Member to encourage Deputy McGuinness referred to the Garda local authorities to ensure that appropriate sign- traffic corps, school bus transport and signage. age is in place. I will certainly encourage, support Good progress has been made in regard to the and assist Deputy Neville in whatever way I can Garda traffic corps. I do not know the exact with his local authority. number of personnel who were in the Garda traffic corps but it was approximately 300 and we Mr. Neville: I thank the Minister of State. are increasing that number to just shy of 500. We have a target to increase the number of personnel Mr. Callely: I pay tribute not just to Dublin Bus to 1,200. We have put a management structure in for which I have the height of respect because it place in this regard including an Assistant Com- is going about its business and developing its missioner, an inspector and so on. We have also services in a proactive manner — it was men- begun to improve the supports that are available tioned by Deputy McGuinness in the context of by way of vehicles as well as through information suburban services — but also to Bus E´ ireann and technology and so forth. The establishment of the its new acting chief executive, Mr. Tim Hayes, for traffic corps is under way and it is to be hoped the manner in which the company has developed we will see the benefits. services throughout the country and ensured that School bus transport has always been a matter the social requirements of villages and parishes of major concern. I again sympathise with those are accommodated. That will continue. involved in the Kentstown tragedy. That has put I say to all the Members that have made spec- a particular focus on school bus transport. I am ific points that I do not have the time or oppor- pleased to inform the House that my Depart- tunity to reply. The Leas-Cheann Comhairle is ment, along with the Department of Education about to call me to order regarding the time I and Science and others, is determined to be as have available. proactive as possible to ensure that the best inter- national standards prevail in school bus transport. An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Minister of I must be cautious as we are awaiting the reports State has unlimited time. of the investigation arising out of the Kentstown incident and I hope these will be available as soon as possible. Mr. Callely: I will wrap up by saying that if it is acceptable to the House, I will ask my officials I refer to two other issues raised by Deputy McGuinness. One is signage. I support the view to contact directly those Deputies who sought a that directional and safety signage are important specific response to issues raised during this and can be of great additional benefit. We are debate. It might be more helpful and productive talking about very small money in this regard, so for the House to go about our business in that it is not a financial issue. fashion. I thank my officials and the Deputies for Mr. Neville: The situation is dire in rural areas. engaging in such a good constructive debate on all the issues raised. I am pleased to commend Mr. Callely: It should not be and let somebody the Bill to the House. point the finger to me if this is a financial issue, because we will resolve it. Question put and agreed to.

Mr. Neville: My county council area in Driver Testing and Standards Authority Bill Limerick is a disaster for tourists, even for locals, 2004: Referral to Select Committee. in terms of directing people. The situation is Minister of State at the Department of Trans- abominable. port (Mr. Callely): I move: Mr. Callely: The cost of a simple sign is very That the Bill be referred to the Select Com- small in real terms. I am happy to work with any mittee on Transport, in accordance with Stand- 1223 Health and Social Care Professionals Bill 29 June 2005. 2004: Second Stage (Resumed) 1224

[Mr. Callely.] the other seven — a majority — are from outside ing Order 120(1) and paragraph 1(a)(i) of the the profession and nominated by the Minister for Orders of Reference of that committee. Health and Children. It is important that the seven nominated people Question put and agreed to. include a member or members of the public so that the views of the users of the particular health service are represented. Only in this way may Health and Social Care Professionals Bill 2004 transparency be achieved. Once transparency and [Seanad]: Second Stage (Resumed). openness is present, trust will be delivered. For too long within health care and outside it, pro- Question again proposed: “That the Bill be fessions have operated within their own narrow now read a Second Time.” structures of governance. By bringing in outside Dr. Devins: I thank the Leas-Cheann Comh- viewpoints, a greater degree of understanding of airle for allowing me the time speak on this how a profession operates is achieved. The end important legislation, namely, the Health and result is of benefit both to the patient and the Social Care Professionals Bill 2004. This legis- particular profession in question. This has already lation comes to the House from the Seanad where happened in medicine and I have no doubt that it was passed recently. the Medical Council is now a much stronger and There has been much discussion both within more effective body as a result of the contri- the House and outside on health matters. The butions of its non-medical members. The views of provision for the health service costs approxi- the consumers of each service will be heard and mately \11 billion in the current year and I acted upon, thereby ensuring that the profession strongly believe that the service patients receive as a whole is strengthened. must be of the highest order. For that to happen I also welcome the establishment of the overall it is essential that the staff delivering the service health and social care professionals council, are well-trained in the first instance and, in the which will have 25 members, one each from the second, they are subject to a continuous statutory 12 disciplines I have mentioned, with the remain- process of regulation during their professional ing 13 coming from outside. This council will lives. Members of the public must have faith in ensure consistency and uniformity of practice the professionals who treat them. They must be among the 12 registration boards under its con- assured that they are suitably trained and fit to trol. When a complaint is received by the council, practice to the highest standards. If this does not I hope it will be dealt with in a logical manner. It occur, the public might have some doubts about will be reviewed first by a preliminary procedure the persons treating them being suitably quali- committee which will decide if the complaint is fied. That is the purpose of regulation — to sufficiently serious to warrant further action. In ensure that members of the public know they are this way, frivolous complaints can be dealt with receiving a service from people who are com- expeditiously, while genuine complaints will be petent and properly qualified to deliver it. That more thoroughly investigated. In the interests of is why this Bill is important and timely. fairness and transparency, genuine complaints At present only a handful of health care staff should be dealt with quickly and without delay. are subject to statutory regulation. These include Having a complainant wait for years to have his nurses, dentists, doctors, opticians and pharma- or her case heard is wrong and would act as a cists. However, many other professionals supply deterrent to openness and transparency. valuable services in health. This Bill aims to regu- I also welcome the fact that most complaints late 12 different health care professions: chirop- will be heard in public. If it is believed that the odists, chemical biochemists, dieticians, medical case has been caused by a practitioner’s ill health, scientists, occupational therapists, orthoptists, either physical or emotional, it will be heard in physiotherapists, psychologists, radiographers, private by a specific health committee. The list of social care workers, social workers and speech sanctions which may be imposed on a practitioner and language therapists. All these groups provide if he or she is found guilty of misconduct is com- a vital and valuable role in the provision of health prehensive and ranges from censure to erasure of care. I strongly believe that the system of regu- the practitioner’s name from the relevant register. lation, which must be done on a statutory basis, By having such a wide ranging complaints pro- will ensure that members of the public will have cedure, members of the public can have confi- people supplying their care that are competent dence that the highest standards of behaviour and fit to do so. from their respective practitioners are I have no doubt that the 12 professions I have maintained. mentioned which are the subject of this Bill, I refer to Part 7, encompassing sections 78 to provide excellent services and that their members 80, inclusive, which deal with the protection of are properly trained to do so. However, once the titles. It is important that there is no confusion Bill becomes law, the protection afforded to the among members of the public regarding the use public will be greatly enhanced. In practice each of a title to describe a particular profession. profession will be regulated by a registration Before I was elected to the House, I worked as a board comprising 13 members, six of which will general practitioner and had contact in my work be members of the respective profession, while with members of all the professions I mentioned 1225 Health and Social Care Professionals Bill 29 June 2005. 2004: Second Stage (Resumed) 1226 and which are the subject of the Bill. At all times, this will emerge in due course. I commend the I was very impressed by the high standard of the Bill to the House. professional work I encountered. All the pro- fessions, in their own respective ways, play a vital Mr. Neville: In response to Deputy Devins, it role in the workings and delivery of the health was very disappointing that the views of the service. Opposition were not accommodated in the report However, a degree of confusion surrounds one of the Joint Committee on Health and Children, profession, namely, with regard to the titles of as they have been in many committee reports on physiotherapy and physical therapy. All over the issues about which opinion has been diverse. In world these titles are interchangeable, especially fairness to the former Chairman of the Joint in the United Kingdom, Northern Ireland and the Committee on Health and Children, Deputy Batt United States. I understand the professional O’Keeffe, diverse opinions were accommodated qualifications and requirements are the same for under his chairmanship. Another committee of both titles in 92 countries. Indeed, the world rep- which I was a member, the All-Party Committee resentative body is known as the World Confed- on the Constitution, also accommodated highly eration of Physical Therapists and has consultant diverse opinions on the issue of property rights. status with the United Nations and an official I welcome this opportunity to contribute to the relationship with the World Health Organisation. Health and Social Care Professionals Bill 2004, Physiotherapy in Ireland is a four year degree which provides for the establishment of a system course awarded by four universities, namely, of statutory registration for certain health and Trinity College Dublin, University College social care professionals. In the brief time left to Dublin, the College of Surgeons and the Univer- me, I ask the Minister of State to assist me with sity of Limerick. Courses have been in existence regard to information I sought from his senior for more than 100 years and the first school of Minister by means of parliamentary questions. physiotherapy was founded in 1905, exactly 100 The information requested is usually provided years ago. within four days of tabling a parliamentary ques- If physiotherapists all over the world are tion. On 10 May, I asked the Minister to provide known as physical therapists, surely the same data on the budget for suicide research and pre- should apply here. Consumers, that is patients, vention in 2005. I have tabled a similar question should have a clear understanding of the qualifi- each year for many years and usually receive a cations and training of each professional they reply within four days. attend. The same position should apply in Ireland It is important to have this information as it as applies all over the world. Perhaps this issue enables me to participate in debate on suicide will be addressed when the Bill is referred to prevention and research. On tabling the question committee but there must be no confusion and no on 10 May, the Minister, instead of issuing a chance of confusion in the minds of members of response, referred it to the newly established the general public as to the qualifications of the Health Service Executive. Seven weeks later, I profession they attend. still await the information requested. It is frustrat- I wish to refer to a comment made by a pre- ing that I was provided the information in pre- vious speaker in regard to the workings of the vious years within four days, which allowed me to Joint Committee on Health and Children, of participate in debate on the issue of suicide and which Deputy Neville is a prominent member. exchange views with Ministers on the matter. As The speaker referred to the committee’s recent the recess approaches, I do not have the facility prolonged deliberations on the Travers report. to elicit the information as the Minister would From the start of the joint committee’s hearings refer any further parliamentary questions to the on the report, it was obvious that certain Health Service Executive again. Will the Minister members were determined to ensure there would of State please—— be a political killing. Mr. S. Power: Recess or no recess, it is not Mr. Neville: Rubbish. acceptable that the Deputy should have to wait so long. I will make inquiries on his behalf tomor- Dr. Devins: Despite the long hours of evidence row and get back to him immediately. members of the committee heard, the Opposition failed completely to achieve its narrow political Mr. Neville: I appreciate the Minister of State’s aim. undertaking. I ask him to consider another issue about which there is no point submitting a Mr. Neville: I refer the Deputy to the pro- parliamentary question because it, fessional views the former Ombudsman 10 o’clock too, would be referred to the Health expressed on the matter. Service Executive. In May each year the Fine Gael Party tables a parliamentary ques- Dr. Devins: To cite the Joint Committee on tion to the Minister for Health and Children Health and Children as an example of groups try- requesting statistics on deaths by suicide and var- ing to protect their own, as has been done in the ious subcategories such as gender and age group House, is to miss completely the point of the for the previous two years. On submitting a hours of deliberations we undertook but all of similar question last week, I was informed the 1227 Ombudsman for 29 June 2005. Children 1228

[Mr. Neville.] primary objective of the Ombudsman for Chil- information was not available. I do not under- dren Act — the establishment of an ombudsman stand the reason statistics on the various categor- to promote the rights and welfare of children. ies of death by suicide are not available from the The exclusion of certain groups of children Central Statistics Office given that it was avail- from the investigatory remit goes against the let- able in May of previous years. I appreciate a ter and spirit of the UN Convention on the Rights different Department may be responsible but, of the Child, which states that children’s rights again, the absence of these statistics stymy debate institutions should proactively reach out to all on the issue of suicide. groups of children, in particular the most vulner- I welcome an opportunity to discuss the Bill able and disadvantaged, such as children in care and appreciate the tolerance of the Leas-Cheann Comhairle in allowing me to ask the Minister of or detention, refugee or migrant children and State for assistance in the matters I have outlined. other groups. Institutions should have the right of Sometimes the reason doctors refuse to make a access in conditions of privacy to children in all complaint against a colleague is not to cover up forms of alternative care or other places. issues but because genuine protection is not In its present form, the Ombudsman for Chil- afforded to doctors who are concerned about cer- dren falls short of the level of protection offered tain practices and wish to make a complaint. The to children in other countries. This is demon- Dr. Michael Neary case is a good example of how strated by comparison with the situation in colleagues and other professionals may become Northern Ireland and in Scotland. The Com- concerned about the consequences of making a mission for Children and Young People in complaint. Northern Ireland contains no specific exclusions on asylum, immigration, naturalisation or citizen- Debate adjourned. ship nor on the administration of prisons or other places of detention or of the custody of children. Adjournment Debate. In Scotland the Commission for Children and Young People provides that the commissioner ———— may investigate any service provider for young people or children in regard to the extent the Ombudsman for Children. service provider has regard to the rights, interests and views of children and young people in mak- Mr. Neville: I welcome the opportunity to raise on the Adjournment the first report of the ing decisions that affect them. Ombudsman for Children, which was published Under the Good Friday Agreement, the Irish yesterday. As someone who campaigned with and British Governments are committed to pro- former Deputy Austin Currie for an Ombudsman viding parity of protection to the rights of all for Children, the publication of her first report is people on the island. The State has fallen short an important event and I congratulate Emily of the level of protection offered to children in Logan and her staff on their work in establishing Northern Ireland. The Office of the Ombudsman the office. The first year was difficult because for Children will seek to resolve this situation and there was no office or support but Ms Logan has will ask the Minister to look at amendments to now established a presence in this area. In future the Ombudsman for Children Act 2002. I put the we will look forward to reports that will have a need to amend the Act to the Minister to deal significant impact on children’s rights. with the Ombudsman for Children’s concerns. We must look at the limitations and exclusions in her role that she has raised, particularly the Minister of State at the Department of limitations that apply to children in certain places Enterprise, Trade and Employment (Mr. of detention, the Garda Sı´ocha´na, the admin- Killeen): I will take the adjournment on behalf of istration of asylum, immigration, naturalisation my colleague, Deputy Brian Lenihan, Minister of and citizenship law, provision for the exercise of State with special responsibility for children. I ministerial veto on investigation and the Defence thank the Deputy for raising this matter as it pro- Forces. Central to the office’s concern is that vides me with an opportunity to outline to this these limitations will remove from its investigat- House an update on this matter. ory remit some of the most vulnerable children The Ombudsman for Children recently issued and young people in the State. her first annual report. The Ombudsman for Chil- The Ombudsman for Children Act provides dren was appointed in December 2003 and the that the Ombudsman for Children should pro- office was formally established in April 2004 with mote the rights and welfare of children. The a staffing complement of nine. The report covers ombudsman considers it an obligation to promote the period from April 2004 to April 2005. the rights of all children equally. To exclude any The role of the Office of the Ombudsman for group or class of children from the reach of the Children is twofold: to promote the rights and Ombudsman for Children’s investigatory powers welfare of children and to investigate complaints. by virtue of immigration status or detention in On the investigation of complaints, the office place not covered by the Act is to go against the has a wide remit that includes public bodies, 1229 Migrant 29 June 2005. Workers 1230 schools and voluntary hospitals. This remit workers who are at risk following the collapse of exceeds that of the Office of the Ombudsman, a firm in Portumna; the increasing vulnerability which has sought a similar wide-ranging remit for of migrant workers affected by sudden closures in several years. During the period under review, the construction industry, often on public con- 177 complaints were received which, for an office tracts, without notice; breaches of statutory regu- in its infancy, must be seen as substantial. The lations and general absence of protection; the majority of complaints — 51% — related to edu- need for a hardship fund to address their immedi- cation, 16% related to health and just over one ate needs and such statutory changes as will meet quarter concerned child protection, social welfare their basic rights. In the service industry foreign entitlements, civil proceedings, asylum and workers are being exploited, particularly in terms immigration. of accommodation. They are charged for any- Actions excluded from the remit of the thing they consume on the employers’ premises, Ombudsman for Children are broadly similar to even for glasses of water. Will the Minister of those of the Office of the Ombudsman. In the State inform the House what is the situation with annual report the Ombudsman for Children regard to the number of hours foreign workers addresses a number of areas in which her powers work each week? Who is on the inspectorate? of investigation are limited. These include chil- How many reports has it carried out and have dren in certain places of detention, the Garda any of them been published? Sı´ocha´na, administration of the law relating to Migrant workers are the among most vulner- naturalisation, immigration, citizenship and asy- able in society. Events this week bear this out. lum, the Defence Forces and provision for a min- The group of workers laid off as a result of the isterial veto in investigations. These limitations actions undertaken by Kingston Construction are in place as a result of independent bodies hav- Limited are now in a most invidious position. ing investigation powers, such as the visiting com- These workers were employed by a company mittees for prisons and places of detention and engaged by Galway City Council. It has now the plans for a Defence Forces ombudsman. moved to secure the site, it having been aban- The ministerial veto also exists in the Act doned by the company. However, it is beyond establishing the Office of the Ombudsman and comprehension that public money could be spent has never been used. The provision is in place to in this fashion. The city council engaged a com- protect both the Minister and the Ombudsman pany that did not comply with a registered agree- for Children. It ensures that the Minister is ment as it relates to pension rights as well as rates accountable to the Oireachtas by avoiding any of pay. It is incumbent on State bodies to ensure interference in the role of the Minister. It also that tenders for work which are accepted are protects the Ombudsman for Children as such a compliant with the relevant registered agreement. request must be in writing and it would be A proper system of checks and balances must be expected that the Ombudsman for Children implemented to ensure workers are protected. In would include this in any report to the the event of the kind of incidents that occurred Oireachtas, thus ensuring transparency. in Galway city and county recently, it is worth As can be seen from the report, the establish- noting that many workers, particularly migrant ment of the Office of the Ombudsman for Chil- workers such as those affected by the abandon- dren has been very successful. The Ombudsman ment of a public contract, are increasingly vulner- for Children adds a central plank to promoting able. Such workers affected by sudden closures children’s rights and welfare, along with without notice in the construction industry are investigating complaints relating to issues affect- suffering breaches of statutory regulations and a ing children. It is a major step forward in imple- general absence of protection. menting the national children’s strategy, partic- When what happened in Galway arises, what ularly the first goal, which is concerned with immediate provisions are there for such workers, giving children a voice. especially non-Irish workers, made redundant in I am pleased to report that the National Chil- this manner? What recourse do these people dren’s Office has made excellent progress in have? What arrangements are in place for those ensuring the development of structures to give workers from within the EU, those from outside children a voice and recently published national the EU and those from the new member states of guidelines with the NGO sector on participation the EU but who are in a minority in their state by children and young people. and do not enjoy full citizenship rights? There have been reports of people from some Baltic Migrant Workers. states not receiving the full benefits and protec- Mr. M. Higgins: I wish to raise the need for tion of EU membership. Beyond these questions, protection under the social welfare scheme of there is a clear and urgent need for a hardship workers, particularly migrant workers, such as fund to address the immediate needs of workers, those affected by the abandonment of a public such as those in Galway who lost their jobs. There contract for the refurbishment of Eyre Square in is now a pressing requirement for statutory Galway for Galway City Council and earlier the changes that will meet their basic rights. Where 1231 Migrant 29 June 2005. Workers 1232

[Mr. M. Higgins.] ing of the labour inspectorate. A restatement or accommodation has been booked and organised consolidation of employment rights legislation by the putative employers, in the event of the forms part of this agenda. This work will lead to contract being broken, as in this case, in what the establishment of better streamlined pro- position do such employees find themselves? Is it cedures for complaint resolution for employees possible for them to apply for rent allowance? together with more effective investigation and The Government must act to protect the least enforcement to deal with the detection and, powerful in society. Migrant workers are some of where appropriate, the prosecution of breaches those with the least clout in Ireland. This has found. All workers, including migrant workers, been seen as a result of Kingston Construction will benefit from these improvements. Limited’s action and the previous company to These are the positive initiatives that are under which I referred. I call on the Minister of State to way to improve the legislative environment in the answer the questions I have raised and to indicate context of employment rights and to address such actions he proposes to take in this regard. breaches of statutory regulations. While I under- stand this is not the situation in the case in ques- Mr. Killeen: I welcome this opportunity to tion, there is provision for the protection of address the House on the day when the Minister workers’ entitlements where their employer has for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy gone into liquidation or receivership. The insol- Martin, published the Employment Permits Bill vency payments scheme, which is administered by 2005. The Bill contains a variety of provisions the Department of Enterprise, Trade and designed to deal with concerns expressed about Employment, enables employees to claim, either the protections available to immigrant workers through the liquidator or receiver, arrears of pay, from outside the European Union employed in holiday pay, pay in lieu of statutory notice and Ireland. various other pay related entitlements that may Protections set out for workers under the pro- be owed to them by their employer. The scheme visions of all employment rights legislation are operates under the Protection of Employees equally applicable to all workers, whether a per- (Employers’ Insolvency) Act 1984, and payments son be Irish or a foreign national. For the avoid- are made from the social insurance fund. Where ance of doubt, section 20 of the Protection of a payment has been made to an employee under Employees (Part-Time) Work Act 2001 provides the scheme, the Minister for Enterprise and that all employee protection legislation on the Employment becomes a creditor against the Statute Book applies to workers posted to work employer in place of the employee. in Ireland. The employment rights information unit in the Mr. M. Higgins: What do they do in the short Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employ- term? ment is active in supplying information on Mr. Killeen: Where workers are dismissed by employment rights to employees. Last year, reason of redundancy, the Redundancy Payments 150,000 inquiries were dealt with by this unit. Acts require, subject to certain conditions, that Officials have given several talks on employment employers make statutory payments to these rights to a range migrant worker groups. Infor- workers amounting to two weeks’ pay for each mation on employment rights is available in leaf- year of service up to a ceiling of \600 per week, let form from the Department and is also avail- plus a bonus week. Any person who is laid off by able on the Department’s website. his or her employer is entitled to unemployment In matters of investigation and enforcement benefit or assistance provided he or she satisfies the labour inspectorate of the Department makes the normal qualifying conditions for receipt of no distinction between Irish and migrant workers payment. In the case of unemployment assist- whether they are from inside or outside the Euro- ance, these conditions include the requirement to pean Union as regards the provision of infor- be habitually resident in the State. mation and enforcement activity. With regard to the labour inspectorate, it is appropriate that Mr. M. Higgins: That includes all the Poles—— since January of this year steps have been taken which mean the complement of Inspectors will An Ceann Comhairle: Allow the Minister of have almost doubled from 17 officers to 31 once State speak without interruption. current recruitment activities are completed. I expect this to happen soon. Mr. Killeen: In the case of a non-EEA national Apart from the increases in resources there is who becomes unemployed but who has been further significant activity on the employment granted permission to remain in the State until a rights front. Arising out of Sustaining Progress, particular date by a Garda registration officer on work is under way to address issues identified in foot of a work permit, he or she is considered to the report of the review group on the employ- be legally resident in the State up to the expiry ment rights bodies and in the discussion docu- date on the visa, even if he or she has lost his ment which focused on the mandate and resourc- or her employment prior to that date. Subject to 1233 Commercial Payments 29 June 2005. Directive 1234 satisfying all the statutory conditions for entitle- mentation or the work. They were told they ment to payment, a non-EEA national who is leg- would not be paid. When the subcontractors ally resident in the State under these circum- threatened legal proceedings, they were told it stances may receive payment of unemployment would take three years to get to court and by then benefit or assistance up to but not beyond the they would be bankrupt. Instead, they were made expiry date on the visa. The supplementary wel- an offer of approximately half of what they were fare allowance scheme is the safety net within the owed to take or leave. overall social welfare system in that, subject to It is a clever scam because it uses the laws qualifying conditions, it provides assistance to any drafted by this House in good faith against the person in the State whose means are insufficient very people for whom laws are drafted to protect to meet their needs and those of their — the most vulnerable. We all know, sometimes dependants. from bitter experience, that the law favours the The Employment Permits Bill clearly sets out rich and that justice delayed is justice denied. A in legislation the procedures relating to the appli- small contractor will have little choice but to risk cation, grant and refusal of work permits. It going into further debt if he or she decides to allows for the introduction a green card type take on a larger contractor. The scam also works system for highly skilled migrant workers, and for because we have no effective prompt payments the means to establish the number of employ- legislation. I remind the House that payment ment permits in total and by sector and to iden- delayed is also payment denied. However, the tify the skills and employment categories in legislation only governs public bodies and does respect of which employment permits may be not cover the private business sector. granted. It will grant the work permit to the Yesterday, before I raised this matter in the employee rather than the employer. However, for House while some hauliers protested outside the reasons of traceability and the enforcement of gates of Leinster House, I was only aware of ten employees’ rights, the practice of the employer companies which faced this difficulty. Today, fol- applying for the permit will continue. The lowing coverage in the national newspapers, sev- employment permit will contain a statement of eral more have come forward to state that they the rights and entitlements of the migrant worker, also face financial ruin at the hands of Glenman including that the employee may change employ- Corporation. A plant hire company is owed ment through the application for another work \180,000, a site security company is owed \10,000 permit by a new employer. This will provide and a haulage company is owed \206,000. This is migrant workers with greater freedom and Government money not reaching people who flexibility. work on Government projects. I spoke to one The Bill prohibits employers from deducting man who owes \400,000 to the people he hired recruitment expenses from remuneration and to carry out this work. His apartment has been from retaining workers’ personal documents. It ransacked — we suspect by the creditors — his introduces significant penalties for breaches of wife and children have been obliged to move out the legislation, comprising fines to a maximum of of the family home and he has not slept in his \50,000 or terms of imprisonment not exceeding family home for four weeks because he fears for five years. These provisions give additional pro- his life. tections to migrant workers beyond those already Another women who recently started a clean- in existing employment rights legislation. ing firm has been obliged to move out of Dublin to Wicklow. Her two vans have been repossessed Commercial Payments Directive. and she is living in fear of her life, not because Mr. Sargent: Ba mhaith liom buı´ochas a ghab- she has done anything wrong, but because she has ha´il leis an gCeann Comhairle as ucht cead a been let down by our courts and our legislation. thabhairt dom an cheist tha´bhachtach seo a ardu´ This story will grow bigger as time passes and anocht. Over the last month I have received more people come forward. I believe the scandal deputations from representatives of ten small and is bigger than the Gama one with which we are medium-sized indigenous companies operating in familiar. I appeal to the House to recognise that the construction sector. They alerted me to a the long-term prosperity of this country depends particular scam that is widespread and to an enormous extent on small to medium-sized straightforward. indigenous companies. As a country, we will A construction company, in this case Glenman come to ruin if we do not legally and effectively Corporation of County Galway, won a Govern- protect sole traders and small and medium-sized ment contract to build council housing in For- companies. This does not mean grants, State tunestown, south County Dublin and in Bally- loans or other funding, nor does it mean tax mun, Dublin city. It hired sub-contractors to do breaks. Legally, small companies are entitled to most of its work. When the work was completed protection. and the sub-contractors presented invoices, in I appeal to this House to reform the prompt one case for \374,000 and \254,000 in another, payment legislation to include all business trans- some contrived fault was found in the docu- actions, to reform legal structures to make it 1235 Probation and 29 June 2005. Welfare Service 1236

[Mr. Sargent.] transactions between undertakings are not met affordable and accessible to all sectors of society within 30 days, unless otherwise specified in a and to make it quick and effective. Most of all contract or agreement. A payment is regarded as however, I appeal that we examine the way in late when 30 days have elapsed unless an alterna- which we award Government contracts so that tive payment period is specified in an agreed con- unscrupulous companies no longer have the tract. In the case of an agreed contract, payment power effectively to drive small companies to is regarded as late if the payment period exceeds ruin. the date or end of the period for payment speci- fied in the contract. Where the contract does not Mr. Killeen: Gabhaim buı´ochas leis an Teachta specify a payment period, a default payment an t-a´bhar ta´bhachtach seo a chur os a´r gcomhair period of 30 days will apply. This 30-day payment anocht. I understand that the company in ques- period begins on the date of receipt by the pur- tion has contracts with Ballymun Regeneration chaser of an invoice for payment or the date of Limited, South Dublin County Council and receipt of the goods or services where the date of Dublin City Council for the construction of a receipt of the invoice is uncertain or the pur- number of local authority housing schemes. The chaser receives the invoice before the delivery of schemes for Ballymun Regeneration Limited the goods or services in question. In cases where involved are Sillogue, phase 3B, where 58 units the parties have agreed a procedure for accept- are due for completion in December 2005 at a ance or verification of the goods or services, the budget cost of \8.8 million, and Poppintree, phase 30-day payment period starts after this process 5B, where 90 units are due for completion at the has been completed. end of the year at a cost of \15.1 million. The The interest rate specified in the regulations for scheme for South Dublin County Council late payment is the European Central Bank, involved is Fortunestown with 112 units and a ECB, rate plus seven percentage points. However community facility at a cost of \20.3 million, and parties to a contract may, if they wish, agree an the involved scheme for Dublin City Council is alternative interest rate. Compensation may be Poplar Row, phase 2, with 69 new units and 56 claimed for the recovery costs of the debt, if such units refurbished at a cost of \17.177 million. costs arise, and the basis on which this may be I am advised by the Department of the Envir- done is also laid down in the regulations. onment, Heritage and Local Government that neither they nor the local authorities concerned Mr. Sargent: That is easier said than done. had any prior knowledge or difficulties with the payment of suppliers or sub›contractors by the Probation and Welfare Service. company referred to. Having checked the matter Mr. Carey: Ba mhaith liom buı´ochas a ghabha´il with the local authorities, they have indicated that leis an gCeann Comhairle as ucht cead a thab- all claims owed to the company concerned are hairt domsa an a´bhar seo a thabhairt roimh an fully up to date. In the light of recent reports, Da´il. Since 2001, the Village Project has served Ballymun Regeneration Limited has sought to the Finglas and Ballymun area by providing contact with the company to ascertain the extent assessment services. It was set up under the aus- to which suppliers and sub-contractors working pices of the probation and welfare service of the on the regeneration project are owed money, the Department of Justice, Equality and Law amount involved, if any, and its proposals to Reform. The detrimental effects which the pro- address the matter. While the issue of payment of posed change to this service will have on young suppliers or sub-contractors is a matter for the people in my constituency must be addressed. companies involved in the first instance, the local As the Minister of State is aware, the Village authorities will maintain a watching brief to see Project was established in 2001 by the probation if and how this matter is resolved. and welfare service. It was a pilot project to The Deputy has also referred to the general provide assessments for children between the issue of prompt payment of bills by public and ages of 12 and 16 years from the Finglas and Bal- private sector organisations and I am happy to lymun areas who were referred by the courts. It clarify the legal position in that respect. In gen- was set up as a response to the identified need eral, this area is governed by the provisions of the for a community-based assessment service that European Communities (Late Payment in Com- provided an alternative to the residential centres mercial Transactions) Regulations 2002, which in existence. The project was originally a co- came into force as SI 388 of 2002. These regu- operative venture between the Department of lations, which gave effect to a European Union Education and Science and the probation and directive on late payment in commercial trans- welfare service and was funded under the chil- actions, came into effect in Ireland on 7 August dren at risk fund until April 2004. 2002 and apply to commercial transactions in Since its inception, the project has been both the public and private sectors. extremely successful. A total of 84 young people The regulations provide essentially that penalty have undergone assessment up to May 2005. To interest will become payable if payments for date, 82 young people have completed their 1237 Probation and 29 June 2005. Welfare Service 1238 assessments and of this number, a total of 79 have for the project to continue while simultaneously returned to either mainstream schools, alterna- meeting the funding obligations of its exclusive tive educational settings or are in employment. funding source, that is, the probation and welfare The financial efficacy of the project is apparent service, it must change its core objectives and, when one considers that in 2002, it cost up to consequently, the type of service it provides. \250,000 to detain a young person in a residential Given these new circumstances, the board of placement while it cost \320,000 to assess 20 the Village Project has had to make the difficult young people in the Village Project centre. decision no longer to accept new referrals for In April 2004 there was a change in policy and assessment from the courts from Monday, 20 practice. Funding and responsibility for the pro- June. Rather, the project must now focus on the ject were transferred wholly to the Department development of its role as a day centre and of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and placed deliver services purely to the clients of the pro- under the auspices of the probation and welfare bation and welfare service. This will mean that service. Although the service had availed of the young people from 12 to 16 years of age will no services of the project since 2001, it adopted this longer be able to avail of the service. Educational new responsibility with a view to the project welfare officers, schools and projects will have fulfilling its role under the Children Act 2001. nowhere to refer children for comprehensive The probation and welfare service has the assessments. The positive changes brought about responsibility of establishing and developing day by this project will not continue to develop and centres under the Act with a view to conducting further detention of this younger age group could assessments with the community of children aged be the result. between 16 and 17 who are on remand. It indi- I request the Minister to review the situation cated its desire for the Village Project specifically and ensure the Village Project can continue to to fulfil this role in this area. meet the needs of the community in which it Before I continue, I wish to provide an outline operates. As I stated, many 12 to 16 year olds of the referrals to the project. A total of 19 young and their families have benefited greatly from the people attended the Village Project as a con- service and it would be a travesty if changes to sequence of criminal justice matters and five of funding sources dictated that this successful the 19 are in detention schools or institutions for scheme was not allowed to continue into the young offenders. The remainder continue to be future. I recognise the need of 16 and 17 year under the supervision of the probation and wel- olds will be addressed with these changes but this fare service and most of them maintain some should not be to the detriment of services for level of contact with the Village Project. All the younger people. young people who attended the project because There is much concern among education prac- of criminal justice matters are male. titioners, in particular, in the area. In the course In addition, between 2004 and 2005, five mini- of correspondence from the chairperson of the assessments have been conducted on behalf of project to the chief executive officer of the the probation and welfare service. These con- National Education Welfare Board, it was indi- sisted of a psycho-educational assessment as well cated that the likelihood of alternative assess- as or instead of an offending risk assessment and ment arrangements being available in the short were conducted with young people from outside term was unlikely. It was suggested, therefore, the Dublin 9 and Dublin 11 areas or for whom a that the board would engage in consultations with full assessment was not required. Ongoing con- the probation and welfare service to see how a tact with the majority of probation and welfare modification of the decision could be made. referrals has been prevalent with many of these young people visiting the project on a weekly Mr. Killeen: Gabhaim buı´ochas leis an Teachta basis. Additionally, contact has been maintained agus tugaim freagra thar cheann an Aire. with these young people who are in detention via The probation and welfare service operates telephone contact and-or visits to either deten- under the aegis of the Department of Justice, tion schools or young offenders institutions. Equality and Law Reform. It has approximately Although the probation and welfare service 430 staff and an annual budget of approximately had availed of the services of the project since \45 million. It provides assessments on offenders 2001, it recently adopted the new responsibility to the courts and is responsible for the proposal under the Children Act. The probation and wel- and implementation of community sanctions. It fare service has the responsibility of developing also provides a probation service to prisons. The and establishing day centres under the Act with service funds and works in association with 75 a view to conducting assessments of children aged voluntary bodies or projects in the provision of between 16 and 17 years. I am aware that up to relevant services. The objective of the service is 11 of those centres are proposed countrywide. to reduce reoffending and protect the public. The implications of the change in direction will The Village Project was established in 2001 as have a detrimental effect on the current services a pilot project to provide assessments for children provided by the centre. It is now apparent that between the ages of 12 and 16 years referred by 1239 The 29 June 2005. Adjournment 1240

[Mr. Killeen.] referrals from other relevant State and com- the courts from the Finglas and Ballymun areas. munity-based services when resources allow. The project was a co-operative venture between The Village Project’s board of directors has the Department of Education and Science and been considering the implications of this change the probation and welfare service. Initially, it was of direction for a number of months and now funded under the children at risk fund in the accepts that for the viability of the project and to Department of Education and Science. Following meet funding obligations, it must change its core a request from the Department of Education and objectives and, consequently, the type of service Science, the Department of Justice, Equality and it provides. To meet the needs of the probation Law Reform commenced funding the project on and welfare service client group and to replicate 1 January 2004. Since 1 January 2004, 21 males the requirements of the day centre order as out- and 12 females have been assessed. lined in the Children Act 2001, the Village Pro- ject will require some considerable modification. The probation and welfare service has the The project is now focusing on the development responsibility of establishing and developing day of its role as a day centre and delivering services centres under the Children Act 2001 with a view to the clients of the probation and welfare to conducting assessments of juveniles who are service. on remand within the community and it has indi- cated its desire for the project to fulfil this role. The Da´il adjourned at 10.40 p.m. until It may also provide an assessment service to 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 30 June 2005.