REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF TYNWALD COURT
Douglas, Tuesday, August 8, 1961'
Present: The Governor (Sir Peter That Tynwald, conscious of its ancient Stallard, K.C.M.G., C.V.O., M.B.E.). In rights and privileges, representing as it does the liberty of the Manx people and re- the Council: The Lord Bishop (the affirming the loyalty of this Island to Her Right ReV. George Eric Gordon, M.A.), Majesty The Queen as Lord of Mann— De.emster S. j: Kneale, C.B.E., the (a) rejects as incompatible with the free- Attorney-General (Mr D. D. Lay. T.D.), dom of a self-governing democracy the enforcement by Orders in Council of Sir Ralph Stevenson, G.C.M.G., Messrs. the domestic policies of Her Majesty's J. B. Bolton, J. H. Nicholls, 0.B.E., Government in the United Kingdom on J. C. Nivison, H. H. Radcliffe, the people of this Island against their wishes, as expressed by their elected T. F. Corkhill, C. C. IVIcFee with representatives in Tynwald: Mr G. J, Bryan, C.M.G.. C.V.O., O.B.E., (hi considers that the interests of the M.C., Governfrient Secretary and Clerk Manx people will be best served by to the Council. In the Keys: The the immediate submission of a request Speaker (Mr H. C. Kerruish, 0.B.E.), to the Committee of the United Nations charged with protecting the interests Messrs. R. J. G. Anderson, H. D. C. of colonial and subject peoples for MacLeod, E. N, Crowe, R. E. S. Ker- an urgent investigation into the inten- ruish, P. Radcliffe, Miss J. C. C. Thorn- tion of the United Kingdom administra- ton-Duesbery, Messrs. P. A. Spittal], tion to extinguish the rights of self- government vested in Tynwald. the W. E. Quayle, J. H. Creer, T. C. oldest continuous democratic assembly Faragher, A. H. Simcoeks, G. T. Crellin, in the world. C. L. P. Vereker, J. E. Callister, J. A. In rising to move the resolution standing Moore, T. A. Corkish, E. C. Irving, C. E. in my name, I must say that whilst I Burke, G. V. H. Kneale, G. A. Devereau, am fully aware of its gravity, I am also R. MacDonald, A. S. Kelly. Sir Henry fully aware of its necessity. I would ask Sugden, K.B.E., C.B., D S,O.. with Mr the members of this ancient Court to T. E. Kermeen, Secretary to the House bear in mind throughout the debate that and Clerk of Tynwald. according to Halsbury's Statutes of Eng- land, volume 24, 2nd edition, referring to the Interpretation Act of 1899, it APPLICATION OF clearly states that the Isle of Man is not UNITED KINGDOM LEGISLATION a part of the United Kingdom. It also BY ORDER IN COUNCIL goes on to state that the Isle of Man is not a colony. I would also refer mem- The Governor: Hon. members, if the bers to the recent letter from the United resolution which forms our agenda sur- Kingdom Postmaster-General which His vives the various amendments which Excellency was good enough to circulate are likely to be proposed. I shall put the to members, in which the Postmaster- question in two parts under Standing General admits that the Isle of Man, Order 63, First of all (a) and then (b). and I quote, "is a separate national The hon. member for Peel. entity with its own distinctive culture." Mr MacDonald: Your Excellency, I Members should also bear in mind (and beg to move:— this is very important) that the United
Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council. 1826 TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967
Kingdom as a signatory to the United sentatives have made it very clear, and Nations Charter, and as one of the fore- remembering that this nation, unlike most defenders, so they say, of self- Northern Ireland, is not represented at determination for human rights em- all in the Parliament of Westminster bodied in that charter, agreed to Article which passed this legislation. I would 73 which is particularly relevant to the consider it arrogant for them to pre- issue before U.S today, and I would like sume that they had such rights and it, to quote that Article. "Members of the would, if enforced, in my opinion con- United Nations which have or assume stitute an act of aggression. I say that responsibilities for the administration of no legislation without representation is territories whose people have not yet just as fundamental for freedom as no attained the full measure of self-govern- taxation without representation. Hon. ment recognise the principle that the members will remember that the people interests of the inhabitants of those ter- of the United States of America, British ritories are paramount above all, and like ourselves, once rebelled against to this end to ensure with due respect this very issue. They said — we will not to the culture of the peoples concerned be taxed when we have no say in the their political, economic, social and legislation introducing these taxes. We educational advancement, their just Manx, I hope, today, stand firm and say treatment and their protection against — if we have no voice in the legisla- abuses. To develop self-government, to tion at Westminster then we ought to take account of the political aspirations reject their right to enforce this legisla- of the people concerned, and to assist tion upon us. Your Excellency, the prin- them"— and note, to assist them —" in ciples .1 have just outlined would be the progressive development of free quite constant even if the Bill concerned political institutions according to the referred to Manx kippers instead of circumstances of each territory and its radio ships and commercial radio, it people, and their varying stages of would not make one difference. Hon. development." I would, hon, members, members, as I said, in the Council — oh, like to stress that the interests of the I may go back a bit —it was very in- people of the territories which are not teresting to note a second issue here— fully self-governing, are paramount. As that if on the other hand we are not members know, the House of Keys, by self-governing, which no doubt the an overwhelming majority of 20 votes tc learned Attorney-General, whose ap- three, rejected the Marine, etc., Broad- rointment is dependent upon White- casting Offences Bill as being . . and hall, will say, then the United Kingdom I quote from the petition susbsequently Government are about to commit a submitted by Tynwald to Her Majesty, breach cf the United Nations Charter Lord of Mann "not in the best interests .iince the elected representatives of this of her 1VIanx people." Now let us look Tsland's people have decided that the at the result of the United Kingdom Marine, etc., Broadcasting Offences Act Government's rejection of this petition, 's not in the best interests of their and we must remember that Her people, and I defy anyone to tell . me Majesty was given advice in Council who else is competent to make this de- from members of that government. cision but the hon. members of the Firstly, if we are self-governing, and I House of Keys. It is a very interesting personally do not consider it is neces- thing that when the Legislative Council sary for a small country to handle its handled this Bill, out of the elected or own external affairs, then the United indirectly elected representatives in the Kingdom have no right whatsoever to Council, three out of four voted against. force on our people criminal legislation Your Excellency, as I have said, the they do not want, as their elected repre- principles that I have just gone through,
Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council. TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1%7 1827 the first and second principle— it does who voted against this Bill, why they not matter whether it is kippers or cab- did throw it out, why they threw. the bage patches or anything else we are gauntlet into the arena, where, unfor- diseUgsing, what this Bill is about, the tunately, it has since been picked up by principle remains. As I just said, in the the Postmaster-General. I only hope Council in the third reading of this very they stand firm today and do not leave_ obnoxious Bill, three out of the four the arena with him holding their gaunt- elected members present voted against let! It might have been their baby — the Bill, so in Tynwald's two chambers, for evermare. your Excellency, perhaps that is the House of Keys and the Coun- the learned Attorney, bearing in mind cil, 23 votes were cast against this Bill, the Isle of Man is not a colony and not and this was all either directly or in- a part of the United Kingdom, will, be directly representatives of the people. good enough to inform us how, despite Whilst only four representative mem- the fact that the British Nationalities bers voted for it, two of us had to be- Act of 059 clearly states that a citizen cause we were introdue'ng the Bill. of this Island is not a citizen o: the (Laughter.) Of the remaining six who United Kingdom and the Colonies but voted for it, they were either Crown of the Islands, could, even if this. Act officials— in other words, their appoint- was extended to us, be committing.an ment depended, on the whims of White- offence, since the Parliament of West- hall — or they had been nominated by a minster did not in their Act, include previous Lieutenant-Governor, they them as potential gaolbirds, but only - were in no way representative of the their own domestic citizens. Hon. mem- Manx people. Two of the Labour mem- bers, our constitution is old and wise bers, when this Bill was debated in the like our learned Deemster Council and in the Keys, were absent, I think one was in London getting a Mr McFee: He's not old. new collar fitted. (Laughter.) The Mr MacDonald: Who has said that it learned Attorney, who, I believe, will be is continually evolving. It has changed, following me immediately in this de- it is changing and is capable of further bate— change, and despite any legal argu- ments put forward on international. law Mr Kelly: No collusion, is there ? and international agreements which the Mr MacDonald: No, so they say. He Postmaster-General, when it suits him, stated when the Bill was, before the breaks to allow the E.E.C. to broadcast Council, I would like to (Mott this, and on 232 metres to Europe despite the fact it is very interesting. He said —I quote that we have been told when it con- from the Hansard of this House —" It is cerns Manx Radio that this channel is time we. got rid of it. and got it down limited to the territorial area of the to another place to let the members country to which it is allocated by in there deal with it. Let us give them the ternational agreement, he has also per- matter and take it out of our hands, as mitted a British Forces station to I say it is pre-eminently a matter for operate in Benghazi outside the terms of them." In other words, the learned the international agreements made at Attorney had said— this is nothing both Copenhagen and Montreux. He really to do with the Upper House, this has quite permited this, happily per- is to do with the people's representa- mitted it, because it suits his. purpose. tives, let them decide it. They did, they Despite all the arguments that will .be chucked it out. They gave it the full brought up, legal, I would ask this treatment it deserved by 20 votes to Court, and especially the elected repre- three. Now undoubtedly. we may hear sentatives, to stand quite firm and reject it again today, why the 20 Keys men as incompatible with the freedom of
Application of United Kingdom egislation by Order in Council. 1828 TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967 our people, an Order in Council intro- Mg Order 75 which provides that every ducing an Act which I say does not con- amendment shall be relevant to the cern them as Island citizens and is not, question on which the amendment is as the Keys have quite clearly said, in proposed. their interests. Your Excellency, I am aware that my hon. and gallant col- The Governor: To quote the great league from Ramsey, Sir Henry Sugden, Benjamin Jowett, a former master of a is to move an amendment to the college founded by one of my predeces- effect that we should first ,appeal sors, "many things in a controversy to the Commonwealth Secretariat. might seem relevant if we knew to what I believe it will be the Common- they were intended to refer." (Laugh- wealth Secretatriat. To get our ter.) In this case I think we do know Commonwealth Prime Ministers to con- and I rule that it is relevant. sider our case, our dispute, with our The Speaker: Thank you, Your Excel- United Kingdom cousins, and hon. mem- lency. bers, in case lesser breeds without the law should think that we Manx with The Governor: Will you get on with the oldest parliament in the world are your speech ? unreasonable men. I am quite prepared Mr Nicholls: We haven't seen it vet, to accept this amendment on the clear Sir. understanding that unless satisfactory results are obtained which are in the Mr IVIcFee: Your Excellency, now that interests of the Manx people, and other my amendment hag been circulated, men are reasonable in the very near during his speech to support his resolu- future, I intend to re-introduce Part (b) tion, Mr MacDonald, the hon. member of my resolution as it stands, for as a for Peel quoted, and has based his argu- man all free men everywhere acIrdire, ment upon the extension by Order in once said—I was not going to use this Council of the Marine, etc., Broadcasting quotation, but I received a letter and I Offences Act to the Isle of Man, which think I should —" That if a nation can- the Keys refused to pass, and therefore not stand up for its own rights and I move, sir, these amendments which freedom it deserves to be stamped out." have now been circulated in my name. Mr. Churchill. Not Mec Vannin, Mr. Your Excellency, there is no doubt that Churchill. And hon. members of Tyn- Mr MacDonald is sincere in his attitude, wald, generations of ManxTrien still un- particularly in his desire to preserve the born, will despise us for failing them right of self-government for this Island. after 1,037 years of self-government and and so far I go along with him, but in home rule. Your Excellency, I beg to analysing his resolution I believe, sir, move. its contents could destroy rather than achieve the objective in the hon. mem- Mr Simcocks: I second, and reserve ber's mind and could rather alienate my remarks. than preserve the status quo. We take The Governor: Mr MeFee. first of all the preamble, for instance. In my opinion this is completely un- Mr McFee: Your Excellency, I beg to necessary — Tynwald, conscious of its move an amendment, sir, to this resolu- ancient rights and privileges, represent- tion which I have asked to be circula- ing as it does the liberty of the Manx ted. people and reaffirming—why need to The Speaker: Your Excellency, on a re-affirm something that is not in ques- quick appraisal of the amendment tion, sir ? (Hear, hear.) The loyalty of tabled in the name of the hon. member the Manx people has never been in of the Council, Mr McFee, I would ask question. Why should he, in a resolution your guidance, sir, in relation to Stand- of this kind, seek to re-affirm something
Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in ,Council. TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967 1829 that is never in question ? And that, in Council to which the hon. member who my opinion, could be wiped out at once. supported the resolution can refer to is What has really occurred, sir, is this. this one. Now what is this one ? Is this The ancient rights of Mann have been one of some domestic character, some- pitted against the guardians of the thing dealing primarily with the in- ancient rights of the British Parliament, terests of this Island ? This is an inter- and up to the present there is no bend- national matter, and is of international ing on either side. Now; Your Excel- character and may I say this, Your lency, I know how frustrating this Excellency, to a responsible govern- Could be. The tendency of the Home ment— and I hope we are a responsible Office, and the Imperial Government at government — this is consequential times is to treat us as a county council upon the 1949 Act which gave the instead of a separate economy, seeking, Imperial Government the authority to without ministerial help, to finance our act on our behalf at international level, own affairs, and requiring the use of and mind you, this government invited modern media to achieve this. But the 1949 Act to be extended to the Isle unfortunately the effect of this reso- of Man by Order in Council. Now when lution is that the political enemies they have acted on our behalf at inter- of the government in jEngland, inside national level, and after tremendous and outside the country, are joining negotiations and probably great prob- in, not because of the so-called prin- lems and difficulty, they have achieved ciple, but to upset and to add to the a convention agreement at international difficulties of the present government in level —what is this government saying? power, not with sympathy towards this Out with it, we will not ratify it. In Island, but with the object of destroying other words, you are prepared to rat, the present government in England. but not prepared to ratify, that which The Speaker: Nothing of the sort. you have empowered the Imperial Government under the 1949 Act to carry Mr McFee: This is quite evident in out on your behalf. Is that responsible the national press. The second point, government ? I say no. Your Excellency, I want to refer to is Mr Kelly: Times are changing too, (a) of clause (a) "Rejects as incom- you know. patible with the freedom of a self- governing democracy the enforcement Mr McFee: Yes, I have noticed that. by Orders in Council of the doniestic Now when criticisms, Your Excellency, policies of 1-ler Majesty's Government I have noticed this, that when criticisms in the United Kingdom." in my opinion, and questions are raised on the floor of Your Excellency, this is casting a slur the House of 'Common, the position of on the Imperial Government, inferring the Isle of Man, the best of two worlds to the non-informed that a grave in- position, is sometimes challenged. Now justice has been or is being done by who comes to our rescue when these them to a small dependency, by impos- criticisms are levelled at us ? The very ing domestic policy upon them against ministers of government whose justice their will, or the will of the inhabitants. in this matter is now being challenged. I challenge the mover of this resolution The present status of the Isle of Man to state one instance when the Imper:al has been preserved against its enemies Government has imposed one Order in and .its critics in the House of Commons Council upon the Isle of Man regarding from time to time by the Imperial domestic policy. Mention them. Government when matters that could destroy self-government in the Island Mr Simcocks: This one. has been raised upon the floor of the Mr McFee: This one, Can we take it a House or in debate. I would ask hon. step further then ? The only Order in members to consider that. Also, Your
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Excellency, the Privy Council are aware Mr MacDonald: He's in the Scilly that the Isle of Man have a habit of ask- Isles ing for the removal of certain things Mr McFee: Mr Simcocks. Your Excel- today and asking • for their return in lency, is quoted as sarcastically refer- abbut two years' time. ring to the Prime Minister of England The Speaker: Such as ? as Big Brother Harold. Well, whether he MT McFee: Such as— I refer, Your likes to call him Big Brother Harold or Excellency, to the 1957 Order in Coun- not, he can call him what he likes, we cil .which at the request of the Isle of know his political extremities and I Man extended the Imperial 1954 Tele- would say this—that he has got to recog- vision Abt to the Island, Now in 1961 — nise that Big Brother Harold, or should that is not very long ago. sir — Tynwald I say more dignified, the Prime Minister asked for its revocation, and in 1963 of England Tynwald rescinded that resolution, Mr MacLeod: Great Britain. asked that this should stand to safe- Mr McFee: Great Bri:ain if you guard the viewers' position, and to gain wish it, the Imperial Government, he is the I.T.A. booster station in the Island. still the political head of the Imperial This is the kind of thing, this is the Government, and as such this Island history; and a wise Privy Council in has got to recognise that. considering demands from the Isle of Man would say— well, those boys over Mr Irving: No coronation is imminent, there, they have got a habit of asking for is it ? certain revocations, in two years' time Mr Mcre-e; Not at the moment, but they will be asking us to do the opposite you never know what will happen ! thing, and probably the Privy Council, (Laughter.) We may have royalty on taking that into account, has just put the head of the hon. member who stood the brakes on. with honour on Tynwald Hill to have The Speaker: How many revocations his photograph taken of recent clays ! have been conceded ? Your Excellency, I am satisfied, sir, and Mr McFee: One is sufficient. You are I want the Court to be very serious basing thip whole argument on one about this, there are two approaches to Order in Council, sir. One is sufficient this very serious question. One is its when you are applying. My colleagues in complete rejection which I believe that the Labour Party— the Labour Party certain hon. members may have in has been mentioned — would not agree, mind. I feel that complete rejection Your Excellency, to washing domestic would lead or would mean stalemate. linen in the world cauldron or in the The grin of the Cheshire cat would still gutter of the world. remain. We want to remove even the grin of this thing, and positive action is Mr Sinicocks.. It is domestic on thls necessary to restore good working rela- . occasion then. (Laughter.) tions and confidence between the Mr MCFee: I refer now, not to the governments, and therefore that is the Order in Council, sir, I refer to the reason for the amendment circulated, domestic dispute that exists between sir. To refer to the amendments we say two governments. (Interruption.) But delete the words "conscious of its as .such —you have had your say, you ancient rights and privileges" because will have a reply, so take your time— in that sense our loyalty is not ques- we feel, sir, that in the best interests of tioned, never has been questioned, and the Island we should consider a new needs no re-affirming. (b) Is of the approach with persistence, even if it opinion that in the matter of the means, sir, a personal appeal to Mr Wil- Marine, etc., Broadcasting Offences son at 10, Downing Street. (Laughter.) created by the application of the United
Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council. TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967 1831
Kingdom legislation by Order in Coun- introduce and what we have introduced cil, which is the subject before this hon. in the way of Manx Radio, whether that Court, that His Excellency the has interfered with the programme that Lieutenant-Governor, in order to clear was being arranged by the B.B.C. to the way for a Manx National Broadcast- establish in the Isle of Man one of the ing Station owned, controlled and regional stations. I hope that that will operated by the Manx Government continue and I think that we should should— the reason for that—we are seek to achieve this sir as quickly as of the opinion, sir, that it has a much possible. And may I just in conclusion, better chance of succeeding, any ap- sir, say that when these negotiations proaches or new approaches to Her continue, that Tynwald should not be Majesty's Government, if it is to be divided into a lot of little disjointed government owned and controlled committees. We have got about five or rather than given to a private company six committees at the present time, little to operate commercial radio in the Is- committees who fly off to London with land, or ultimately, outside the Island one aspect or other excuse to meet their if negotiations should succeed. There- counterparts there. Let us have the fore we suggest that it should be taken whole thing considered by some sort of by the government and made a govern- composite committee so that after very, ment-operated scheme. very careful consideration all the prob- Mr Kelly: Where are you going to get lems that confront the Island and its the talent from ? relations and its constitution may be considered very carefully before any MT McFee: Well, we have seen some attempt is made to meet the negotiating talent from time to time. We must re- body across the water. As such, sir, I introduce the Marine Broadcasting ask the Court to accent the amendment Offences Bill into the branches, because and reject the resolution. I believe that we have now international obligations in this respeot. We should The Governor: The hon. and gallant seek the continuance of consultations member for Ramsey. with the United Kingdom government Sir Henry Sugden: Your Excellency, with a view to Manx Radio obtaining may I first make it quite clear, or have greater power — we would agree with it made clear by you, sir, why I am on that — and would certainly say that my feet. Now I do that, sir, because negotiations should continue, not stale- naturally 1 want to propose the amend- mate, sir. (c) Whilst the branches are ment standing in my name. But I also taking the opportunity of reconsidering have a certain amount to say about the legislation, respectfully ask Her Majesty amendment which has been proposed by the Queen to be graciously pleased to the previous speaker, and I would also defer making an Order in Council ex- like to say a certain amount about the tending the United Kingdom Act to the motion itself. May I therefore, sir, speak Isle of Man. This I believe, that if this purely and simply to my amendment, was achieved it would create a proper and perhaps be afforded a later oppor- and a better atmosphere for negotiation tunity purposes, and (d) to ascertain whether early consideration may be given to in- Members: No: no. clude the Isle of Man in the B.B.C.'s. The Governor: You will have to get 16 regional stations programme. I was of votes in the Keys and seven in the the impression and understood that the Council to speak twice. (Laughter.) Isle of Man was on the priority list for the regional developinent. I do not know Sir Henry Sugden: Well I will put it what the position is now. Whether by all in one. I thought I had better be on the alternatives that we have tried to safe ground. First of all, I think we have
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really. got two rather separate issues For goodness sake let us stick to it which we are considering, One, I think, Now, sir, there has been a good deal and here • I would like advice from the of suggestion about bargaining with the learned AUorney-General, is very much, British Government. Can anybody in is it not, out of our hands. Here I am this hon. Court really give instances of referring to Radio Caroline. We must where the weaker partner to a bargain really believe that no matter what we has struck a good bargain with the do today, whoever we go to, it will be more powerful side. I, personally, can- linked—whatever tempest we may make not think of one. David did not bargain wiil be linked with Radio Caroline. with Goliath, he just got on with the However, the two aspects I think that job. Now. sir, if I may come to my arise on Radio Caroline are these. First amendment. We have got, I think, to of all, the purely domestic side o: it, be in a position of as great a strength and that is— is the Attorney-General as we can to bargain. We can only going to prosecute shall I say a grocer bargain by attacking and to keep on in Ramsey for supplying the crew of doing so and not just to sit down and Radio Caroline with groceries, or a say "We will have another thought, we greengrocer with fresh vegetables ? will all come again." Having been Mr MacDonald: It has not arisen yet. turned down flat by the Postmaster- General, in his re'cent.letter for increased Sir Henry Sugden: Well, it may not strength, we will get. if we do that, I have arisen, but it is something which venture to suggest, nothing. Now I, sir, feel we in this Island must bear very qui:e frankly, was very unhappy at much in mind, and I would almost take referring this matter to the United out my shotgun to protect that grocer or Nations—I wondered who would spon- :hat greengrocer. But that to my mind sor it. Would it be Sierra Leone ? My is a very important point, Well now hon. colleague may still have some the other one is this. I do not know contacts there. What support would we where Radio Caroline gets its income get ? We were told in the very able from. From advertisements—yes, But speech of the hon. member for Peel, in in what country of origin. If they are another place, that off-shore broadcast- mainly in the United Kingdom then pre- ing stations interfered with the normal sumably on — is it — the 17th of this local network in Czechoslovakia and. I month that source of income will be cut think, Hungary. So, we would probably oft. Can Radio Caroline survive? That to get no support from the eastern bloc. my mind is another consideration, but I We might get, perhaps, support from the am more concerned with what. is ger- Arab nations as they are ready to do rnaine to this resolution and that is the anything to upset the United Kingdom domestic side of it. Can the United 'but it is not the sort of support, quite Kingdom Government force us to prose- frankly. I would care to seek, nor do cute the people I have mentioned for I believe it is the sort of support really carrying out what to them, I would sug- this hon. Court would wish to enlist. gest, would be normal, legitimate trad- So I tabled my amendment and I think ing? Now then. we come to Mr McFee's it would be as well. perhaps, if I just amendment. I will if I may, sir. repeat mention some aspects of the work which what I said in another place. Or at the Commonwealth Secretariat carries least the relevant extract. We have got out. Its prime part is, of course, to act Radio Caroline. it, is working. For good- as the Secretariat to the periodical Com- ness sake, let us keep Radio Caroline monwealth Prime Ministers Conferences because there we have got something but it is a body that is functioning the which is what we want. We have got it whole time and, I believe, at the present right here, as it were, in our hands. moment it has a delegation overseas in
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Nigeria helping to try and sort things of constitutional relationships and has out there. I think the two functions already recommended in an interim re- which really can be of use to us in this port that, instead of the Home Office, argument which we have — I will just we should seek to have our channel of quote two very brief extracts. "In ad- communications with Westminster through the Commonwealth Office. It is dition. the Secretary-General will, on the following on that proposal and, further- request of a member government, cir- more it does not of necessity close the cdate papers submitting by that gov- door. :We have already been turned ernment on international questions of down by the Privy Council so again, common concern, provided that, if these I think, it is no use thinking we can get touch upon the internal affairs of mem- away with any further bargaining. We ber countries, or dispuies between two just will not. So let us pp ahead. Attack, or more member countries, they will not but attack within the Commonwealth. be circulated without the prior concur- I beg to move the amendment circulated rence of the country or countries con- in my name. cerned." We can, therefore, go to the Commonwealth Secretariat and they will The Governor: The learned Attorney- deal with this matter for us in confi- General. dence, or, in any other way, I am cer- tain, that we may wish. Also clause 13 The Attorney-General: Your Excel- reads — "the position of the remaining lency, I am going to try and present a dependent territor:es within the few facts to this Court. What I believe Commonwealth is the one matter which to be and what I am satisfied are in- continues to command lively interest deed correct facts. Now, if I could, I among member countries. The Secre- do not think the hon. member for Peel tariat can play a rale in this field and repeated this today but he was credited it might circulate to member govern- in an issue of last week's Liverpool ments balanced paners on the consti- 'Daily Post" as having said that the tutional difficulties of the remaining issue was whether or not the British territories or on their progress towards Government has any right to force their independence on the understanding that laws upon us. Well, if that is the issue. the responsible member government gentlemen. I can give you the answer. would always be closely consulted in the it is, in fact, yes. They have full con- preparation of the papers." I feel, ::titutional right to do so. They do not therefore, that this is a body which can do ii and this is possibly the first in- well deal with this matter. It keeps, stance that you will find in the last I suggest, in accordance with the pre- hundred years where the Imperial Gov- amble, all this affair under the Crown. ernment is saying to us: "Look, this is It keeps it within the Commonwealth. an international matter. We are respon- Possibly. as suggested by the hon. mem- sible for your international relationships ber for Peel, if this line of approach and if you are not going to help us out fails, he may well bring this matter up by do:ng it yourselves, then we must, again, so it does not close the door to with great reluctance, in this particular him. Well, sir, that is what I have to instance, do it for you." Now, that is say in proposing this amendment and I what is happening. The principle that would just repeat that here is what I the Imperia: Parliament can legislate suggest is the highest body available to for us was, as far as I am aware, first us within the Commonwealth. It is. stated by Lord Coke in the reign of furthermore, I would suggest, just fol- Queen Elizabeth the First. It was re- lowing on the suggestion made by our stated in the Privy Council in a case of committee sitting on the development Sodor and Man, one of Your Lordship's
Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council. 1834 TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967
predecessors, against Derby in the year the hon. member of the Council pointed • 1715. It was re-stated by Attorney- out. It is, gentlemen, no good mule- General Ring to the McDonnell Com- ishly repeating that pirate radio is a mission in 1912. Mr Ring stated he had domestic issue in the Isle of Man. As never heard it seriously questioned any- the hon. and gallant member for Ram- where or in any court and a Mr Wilkins sey has said, it has, of course, as every- a member of the McDonnell Commission, thing must have, as the Common Market agreed with him entirely. In. 1917 the is going to have, a domestic application House of Keys said they had never in the Isle of Man, very much so, But questioned it and in 1926—well I will things that may be domestic to the Isle not go on—but in .1959 before the Mc- of Man can also be, as indeed is this Dermott Commission, they published, very question, a red ho i international before they look any evidence, this book, one. It is no good going on saying it is domestic = it's domestic, it's making which contained the Home Office mem- criminals of Manxmen against our will. orandum, which set out all these other It cannot be helped. The United King- authorities and when the evidence was dom is responsible for our external re- given, after this was published, the lations—radio is as external as anything matter was never even referred to. I you can think of, and if we are not pre- might say that Attorney-General Ram- pared to co-operate, then the United say Bignell Moore referred in his very Kingdom, with great reluctance, has no authoritative work on the Isle of Man option but to do what it intends to do and International Law to the paramount and nobody, no court in the world, would power of the British Parliament to legis- deny it the right to do it. Now, this late for all parts of the British Empire. first paragraph "A" refers to the enforce- That is in the days when they had— ment, by Order in Council, of the domestic policies of Her Majesty's Gov- The Speaker: When they had an ernment. Now what domestic policies Empire. have they forced upon us? Have they forced us to abolish the death penalty? The Attorney-General. Precisely. That Have they forced us to abolish the birch? was when they had an Empire. Now These are two matters, Your Excellency, that did not include just us. I men- which are very dear to the heart of tioned all that to show you that the the British Goveinment. It is a very British Government are not arrogating important matter :o them. They are to themselves a power which they have determined to keen the death penalty no right to have. They have that con- abolished. They are determined never stitutional power. Now let us examine, to bring the birch back. Absolutely hon. members, Your Excellency, let us determined, but they are saying :o us: examine the resolution. Paragraph "A" "This is a matter for yourselves. If you is more or less harmless but there are want to remain savages and heathens one or two odd things about it. It has and live back in the dark ages. well no contemporary relationship to facts. good luck to you!" Let us no forget It is a complete non sequitar. It ap- that we birch—not often enough, I am pears to be founded on a false premise afraid at times — citizens of Great of domestic politics. It expresses a very Britain, who come here and misbehave goad principle, to which I subscribe themselves on their holidays, but they fully and always will subscribe as fully have shown what could only be described as any member a this Court, but it is as extreme tolerance on these important one that does not require expression. matters. It is the poicy of the United We know it, just as we know that there Kingdom Government that in the United is no need to reaffirm our loyalty, as Kingdom there should be no commercial
Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council, TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967 1835 radio, but we have the only commercial to investigate the intention — I repeat radio in the British Isle, and you say that, Your Excellency and hon. mem- they are forcing their domestic policies bers, the intention of the United King- upon us. Is it seriously suggested that dom AdMinistration to extinguish the the U.K. Government are going to force rights of self-government vested in us to terminate our pregnancies? Are Tynwald. That is a good one. That is a ihey going to permit consenting adults really good one. Let's leave out the —are they going to make us permit Colonial and subject peoples for the consenting adults to perform in private? time being. Of course not. These are domestic mat- ters. Come to the General Development Deemster Kneale: No, no. Bill which caused us such a lot of The Attorney-General: For the time trouble. The Home Office said, or the being. For the time being. Where, hon. Britlsh Government said, it infringed the members, is there the slightest proof of basic principles to which all good legis- this alleged intention ? Where is there lation should conform in that it created any bit of corroboratory evidence ? a monopoly. I do not agree that they There is absolutely none at all. Has the were right. I do not see that there is United Kingdom Government sugges- anything against monopolies if they are ted that we cannot close roads for races? beneficial monopolies, but the United Have they suggested that we can't fix Kigdoin Government is dead set against our own taxes ? Have they suggested monopolies. that we cannot run a casino or a lottery? Mr Kelly: They have the National Mr Kneale: You are right there I Coal Board. The Attorney-General; They haven't The Attorney-General: You will have suggested it, very decently. I refer to the your say, Mr Kelly. And what hap- lottery, not the casino. Have they sug- pened? We went up, we saw them, we gested that we have got to have betting argued with them and then they said shops ? That we must have votes for "Look here, chaps, why not do it this servicemen ? That our local government way. It doesn't, look so bad if you do it law must correspond with theirs ? That that way." They showed us how to do it, we cannot give loans to visiting indus- and you say they try to force their tries? Of courf.e they have not, There is domestic policies upon 11S. Are they not a seintella of proof that there is — going to try and make us conform to and we all know it to be a lie anyway, their permanent summer-time ? No, they that it is their intention to do this. The are not, they have said so. It is up to us whole history of our last 200 years of to do what we like. Now then the only zelationshi.ps with the Imperial Govern- real objection to paragraph "A' as I ment contradicts it. Quite recently it see it is its false implication that the was suggested to the Imperial Govern- domestic policies of the United Kingdom ment who were passing a new Weights are being currently forced upon us. It and Measures, Act, Bill as it was then contains a principle to which all of us — a most complicated piece of verbal subscribe, but it contains a false and machinery — it was suggested that they libellous inference against Her Majesty's 'might include us in it, and they said Government — that is what is the "No — this is a domestic matter for you; matter with paragraph "A", nothing you deal with it by your own legisla- else. It needn't be said. Now, paragraph tion." In 1957 they passed an Act and "B" suggests we submit a request to the gave the Royal Assent to an Act of our United Nations Committee charged own to enable us to fix our own with protecting the interests of Colonial Customs. The first time for 200 years and subject peoples urgently for them and you say it is their intention to
Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council. 1836 TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967
extinguish our rights of self-govern- Ivory Coast, Madagascar, Mali, Poland, ment. We can fix our own Customs— Sierra Leone, Syria, Tunisia, the Soviet The Speaker: On what conditions ? Union, Tanzania, the U.S.A., Uruguay, Venezuela and Yugoslavia, and the The Attorney-General: We can at any United Kingdom? Why do you want to time opt out, if we care to do so. At any do that ? Now then, in fact, if we do time — you would go bankrupt prohablY succeed, which is, I should say, impro- if you did, but that is not their fault, and they even gave us Dower to repeal Acts bable, let us see who, out of that com- of the Imperial Parliament by Acts of mittee, are the sub-committee for deal- Tynwald if they related to Customs ing with petitions. They are Poland, Duties, and you say that they intend to Ethiopia, Venezuela, Madagascar, India, extinguish our rights of self-government. Tunisia and, thank God, Australia, I The hon. Mr Speaker has said on what have referred to the fac. that we are terms do we fix our own Customs. Now not a colonial people. Every people in that is just the kind of argument you the world is a subject People. I, person- are going to have— ally, am proud to be a citizen of the United Kingdom, Islands and Colonies, The Speaker: Because there are res- which is my correct title. I am proud to traints. be it. I am also a British subject, a sub- ject of Her Majesty the Queen, and I The Attorney-General: Let me speak shall always remain so — at least I hope now. If we care, if we wish to alter our I shall. Now are we a subject people In Customs duties widely from those of the the sense used in the title of this de- United Kingdom, then the whole posi- colonisation committee ? Of course we tion with regard to the Common Purse are not. Of course we are not. Now do and everything else has to be re- you want our relatonships with the examined and that is .a very fair and United Kingdom to be poked into and proper arrangoinent, because why did probed by these nations. This is the the British Crown buy back the Sove- committee, gentlemen, to which Gibral- Ireignty of the Isle of Man 200 years tar has appealed for the last three years 'ago ? Why was the Isle of Man re- — utterly in vain, for protection against vested ? Because of smuggling. Because Spain. Utterly in vain. Because this is of smuggling and I am only sorry that an anti-United Kingdom committee and X was not there to reap the benefit of every one of you knows it. It can't in .it, like most of you. I am afraid my any event do anything but make rude grandfather came to the Isle of Man noises and insult Her Majesty and Her too late or I would be living in the Government, even if they do receive us. lap of luxury. (Laughter.) The whole Now four and a half months ago Tyn- theory, Your Excellency, on which the wald appointed a committee to examine intended submission to the United the relationship letween us and the Nations Committee is based is utterly United Kingdom and to make recom- false. Now let us turn to this committee. mendations as to the steps, if any, that As I am asked to agree, and of course, could usefully be taken to improve one more of these things that doesn't them. This is a fine way to improve need to be stated, we are not a colony, them, gentlemen, isn't it ? A very fine we are not a colonial people. This is a way to improve them. To try and im- de-colonisation committee — why go to prove them with what is a pack of false it ? Why, gentlemen, do you want to allegations against the United Kingdom refer a family dispute with the United and setting her up as an Aunt Sally for Kingdom to these countries — Afghanis- people only too anxiowz, to throw stones tan. Australia, Bulgaria, Chile, Ethiopia, at her — trying to. Now what our com.- Finland, India, Iran, Iraq, Italy, the mittee should do is fulfil its terms of
Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council. TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967 1837 reference — examine the position and of smuggling and if Manxmen remain talk across the table with the Home wedded to it they may well find that Office and go on doing it. If not, why with the disappearance of one of the form a committee ? They have been conditions for their autonomy — their offered this opportunity. They were autonolny itself is invaded." offered the opportunity of talks with the Home Office in May. So far that offer Mr Kelly: The "Daily Mail" said just has not been accepted. I do not know the apposite. why it has not been accepted. I think it has been— Mr MacDonald: The old Whitehall lie. The Speaker: What sort of talks ? The Attorney-General: Hon. members, you know we have the best of both The Attorney-General: I do not think worlds, thank goodness. Even the United it has been accepted because of a native Kingdorn'6 Government has not a suspicion that the other fellow is going patience which is completely in- to be too smart for them. That is my exhaustible. Don't try it too high. opinion. We should not wash our dirty linen, if this is dirty linen, in public. Mr Irving: Threatening annexation Neighbours always treat it as a joke. again ? Some people think that — well, we will The Attorney-General: And if you leave that one. Now, I personally, am want to vote for something, hon. mem- proud of the land of my birth and I do bers, vote for paragraph ''A", or for the not want it to be put into the hands and hon. and gallant member's amendment. I its affairs bandied about by the nations ,-han't vote for it. Utterly reject para- I have just mentIoned. We want to see graph "B" wh'.ch is unworthy of us and ctable and sensible government in the if I were you, for my part, I would vote Isle of Man — that is what we want so against the whole thing. that industrialists coming here know that we have a sound government — not The Governor: The hon. member for given to rash actions, that it can Trust, Rushen. that it can bring its br'cks and mortars hete, put :hem up and know that they Mr Simcocks: Your Excellency, it has are not going to be dealt with dis- been said that in choosing this particu- honourably or unfavourably. Mr Tyran, lar issue with which to confront the who we still hope will bring the oil CovernMent of the United Kingdom, refinery here, said that one of his three that the Isle of Man has taken the wrong main rea-ono for com'ng to the Isle of grounds for the argument. With this, Man was that it had a stable govern- :lir, I would not agree. I would say ment. though, sir, that although these grounds are not the wrong grounds they are diffi- Mr Kelly: So it has. cult grounds. Difficult. sir, because it is necessary to out a true, legal argument The Attorney-General: Has it ? Da to this Court and to the people of this you call this stability ? Island in order to establish what our Mr Kelly: Just one thing like this ? case is. I think, sir, too, that we should look to see what is the case which the The Attorney-General: Do you call United Kingdom with the help of the this stability ? I wonder whether Mr B.B.C. is putting forward to the people Tyran w'll be quite so happy about it today, I was quite surprised to find that now. Flnally, hon. members, let me suddenly the B.B.C. discovered that there quote from the second leader in last was a ship called "Caroline", sir. Until Thun:day's Landon "Times" — it says, a week or so ago I was quite certain "Pc-p pirai'y is but a sophisticated form they hadn't even heard of it but, sir,
Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council. 1438 TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967
the case which is being put forward is once the money has ceased, the radio this. That the British Government have ships will sail away. I know that there entered into an international agreement are brave words being said at the undertaken to remove frotfi round the moment. That certain operators are Under which the British Government has saying "Come what may — come the shores of the 13ritish Isles the off-shore 16.th August, we will still carry on, We :radio ships, which have admittedly tamed interference with the legitimate have secret means of making sure that broadcasting of other countries. Further- all will be well." Frankly, sir, that does more the case is that in order to honour not impress me. I have heard so ofteil that agreemnt the British Government the. confidefit l'efriarkS of gefiel'alS telling has enacted the Marne, etc., Broa&ast- their troops that they are on the verge ing Offences Act which is the cause of of victory, right un to the moment of the present disturbance. Now I agree, surrender. sr. I am certain that money sir, it is necessary for the British Gov- will talk and that when the effects of ernment to have passed that Act in the lack of money is felt an these radio order to honour the agreement but the ships they will go out of business. It is British Government then goes further, true, sir, that if the Isle of Man is not sir, it says "and furthermore in order involved in this legislation, that the that this international agreement on the departiar Of the ships might be delayed part of the British Government should for a day or two — perhaps for a week, be honoured" — an agreement entered but, sir, there is no doubt in my mind into amongst other people for the bene- whatever the mere fact that the British fit of the Isle of Men, on behalf of the Government has passed an Act making Isle of Man — "it is necessary that the advert:sing on these ships a criminal Isle of Man should conform with the offence, effectively carries otit the Inter- United Kingdom Government in passing national obligations of the nritish Gov- similar :egislation." Sir, it is at that point ernment, and that to include us in that that I part company with the case put Act seems to me to be a quite gratuitous forward for the United Kingdom Gov- wish on the nart of the British GOvern- ernment. You see, sir, I think we should ment to have uS confarM. It is because first look at the contents of the Marine, of that, Sir, that I say that the British etc., Broadcasting Offences Act, to see Government, in forcing this niece of what it contains. Curiously enough, sir, criminal legislation upon us, is acting that Act does not in itself make it an in an unconstitutional way. In a wAy offence to broadcast on the high seas quite contrary to all our coneeptiOns of without a licence. It will not make Radio what the relationship was between our Caroline illegal of herself. But what this Government and the British Govern- Act does do, sir, amongst other things, ment. At th:s point, sir. I think we is to make it a criminal offence for any- r&ght perhaps have a look at the con- one to advertise their products on that stitutional position between us and the station. Now, sir. I do not think that United Kingdom. That, sir, is clearly we would delude ourselves into thinking 5tated, as the learned Attorney has said, that the operators of off-shore radio in quoting, that is clearly stated in the ships do it because they like the sea, or memorandum addressed to the commis- because they are fond of the view. I pion headed by Lord McDermott — a do not think there is any doubt at all but memorandum from the Home Office in that this is an operation that is carried 1958 or 1959. The learned Attorney- on for money. I think too, sir, that there General quoted from some Darts. I is no doubt that once advertising be- would like to draw the attention of the comes a criminal offence — advertising Court and the public to the very clear which is the source of the money of sta'ements which lay down this. That these ships — that money will cease and whereas the British Government is res-
Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council. TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 3967 1839 ponsihle for our external affairs and who were wearing their Privy Council our defence, other parts of the activities hats, sir, nevertheless advised Her of government are within the ambit of Majesty, that it was in order that this Tynwald. There i of course this over- law should be passed in accordance with riding provision that the British Govern- the wishes of Tynwald. Clearly then, ment can eventually legislate for us but sir, it would appear that the criminal the Attorney did not mention to you — law, in the ordinary case, is domestic 1 do not know for what motive — he legislation. If it were not domestic legis- did not mention to you the proviso that lation, sir how is it that the British this power is in practice only exercised Government have been allowing us to af:er full consultation with the Isle of pass it ? How is it that we have been Men. allowed to have laws different from the United Kingdom if the criminal law is The Attorney-General: Haven't you not domestic ? Now I will concede to had full consultation ? the learned Attorney the possibility that criminal law can be elevated from the Mr Simcocks: I am concerned with realms of domesticity into the area of what the Attorney said, sir. Now, sir, in the international field. Let us take the o her words the British Government case where Britain might perhaps de- deals with the external affairs of de- clare war on a country, a declaration fence and we deal with affairs within which would necessarily involve the Isle the Island. Now let us see what consti- of Man. Obviously then, sir, it would be tu'es domestic affairs. Remember, sir, necessary for all concerned that the Isle that the Home Office have told us that of Man should pass criminal law to dcmestic affairs are our affairs. Let us ensure, for instance that there would be go back and see what it is that Tynwald no contact with the new enemy, but sir, has been dealing with over the past few this is quite a different position. I think years. Let us have a look at our criminal I have made it very clear that in this law. As the Attorney-General has told particular care it is not necessary to you, our criminal law is different in :roplicate the Isle of Man in the Marine certain vital respects from that of the etc., Broadcasting Offences At to make United Kingdom. P is quite true what it work. I am satisfied and I am sure he told you. in snite of the dogmatic other clear thinking people will be satis- opposition of the British Government to fied, the mere fact of making it a crimi- corporal punishment and capital punish- nal offence to advertise on these ships, ment — nevertheless this is the law of will effectively deal with that particular the I--oe of Man and no attempt by the problem. Now, sir, there is the question British Government has been made to of this application to the United Nations. oppose our right to have those laws It is suggested that this is a wrong when we make them and it is not just a thing to do; the hon. member of the lc-natter of an old situation, sir. The Council, Mr MeFee, suggests that we Summary Jurisdict'on Bill which first should commence further negotiations provided for the birching of youths — we should ask the Queen to delay who carnmit acts of violence — that her Order, I understand it has actually Act rer&ved the Royal Assent in 1961. been made, and a Sealed copy is here The Criminal Justice Act which con- in the Island at the moment, so how fe-red the eame !'ower on our Court of the Queen can delay something which General Gaol Delivery was, I think, 1963 she has already done, I don't know. But and in b',th cases this Court of Tynwald it does seem to me, sir, that the amend- passed Bills providing for criminal law ments suggested by the hon. me-mber Mr absolutely different from the law in Bri- McFee. have been drawn with the head tain, yet the Government in the United of the Manx Labour Party somewhat in Kingdom. those Ministers of the Crown the sand. Have they not heard what has
Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council. 1840 TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1987
been going on, Your Excellency ? Do compIa:ning. In fact, sir, the only help they not know that whilst the House we got from the Privy Council was that of Keys were actually dissolved waiting they, having had a complaint made for the election, that the Marine Broad- against an accused, elevated the accused casting Offences Bill came before the to the Bench, and not surprisingly, the Bench acquitted them, Well ir having Legislative Council, and the Upper had that experience, is it reasonable House were told by the learned Attor- that we should take the advice of the ney — "Gentlemen, if you do not pass Manx Labour Party to try further nego- this Bill the British Government will tiations with these dogmatic men who pass it to you?" Do they not know that will not move a traction of a millimetre? any representative body such as the Is it not reasonable that we hould...gb elsewhere and see if we cannot find House of Keys must realise it to be some organisation which will help us to their duty to accept this as a challenge get success with the British Govern- to the right of the Manx people to legis- ment? What we are looking for, sir, is late domestically for themselves ? Do an arbitrator to help us to get out of they not know that after the Bill had these difficulties. It is most certainly been discharged by the House, and not a break with Britain that we want, after a petition had been agreed by this what we need is help in resolving our Tynwald, that negotiations did take difficulties here today, and it is because place ? And I think we should recall, !Nye need a third narty to deal with sir, just exactly how those negotiations -these problems that we are looking — if I may call them that — were con- elsewhere. Where we go is a matter ducted. It will be recalled that a which is of less importance. Perhaps, petition was addressed to Her Majesty than the Attorney might make out. I asking her to take account of the fact would be prepared to accept what the that the House of Keys had rejected the hon. and gallant member for Ramsey local Bill, when the Queen was to con- suggests, though I am bound to say that sider whether or not to extend the it looks to me like a very, very small British Act to us. What we sa:d in effect, half of a loaf. I would hone that this sir, was — "Please do not extend this organisation of which he sneaks is not Act to us." The matter was dealt with under the eagle eye of 10 Downing by the Privy Council who quite cor- Street, but I have a horrid feeling that rectly referred the matter to a commit- it probably will be, and, sir, we must tee. Now, sir, this petition was in the remember that we should try to keep nature of a complaint by the Manx out of the direct line of communication people against the British Government. with the British Government so far as One would have thought, therefore, that possible while these negotiations are when the Privy Council came to deal going on— with this matter they would have ap- pointed to the committee elder states- Mr Canister: Go to Mr Heath ! men, men who were not directly con- cerned, people who would perahps deal Mr Simcocks: You see, sir, it has also with this matter on its merits. But what been suggested, sir, that we cannot go happened ? In the event, sir, the com- to the United Nations ourselves, but it mittee of the Privy Council who were must be the sovereign power — Britain to deal with this matter, this complaint — that must do it for us. But, sir, this against the British Government and particular committee mentioned in the certain of its Ministries, the people who resolution was appointed specially for were appointed to that committee were the purpose of dealing with just the the Ministers responsible for those sort of complaint that we have today, departments against which we were and it would seem to me that if a small
Application of United Kingdom egislation by Order in Council. TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 19(17 1841 people wished to co lain against a lism as between the United Kingdom and ;zovereign power upon whom they ,are its subject people is all fine and well's° dependent, and they have to complain . long as the paternalism is benevolent. I. against oppression through the oppres- have been seeing over past years, "and' E0r, that would appear to me to be too I have been telling this hon. Court Utterly Gilbertian to be worth consider- about it. I have been seeing this bene- ink. It is tiler:est the sarne, sir, as sug- volence disappear. 1 have seen the 'exit gesting that if a cathef i5 15eing iinneces- of paternalism as well, and I have seen• sari:y cruel to his son and tha gdn benevolent paternalism turning into an that this is conduct which the police dictatorship. and I feel, sir, that this Ought to look at, and that boy goes to could have been avoided if .we had had the policeniaii and says—"My father has a constitution upon which we could. been beating me in a way Whqh goes have put our finger. I would like to beyond all reasonable forms of On- appeal to this Court today to think again abou4 what was done on the 22nd. duct", and the policeman says .— "Are February last. Have a - look at. the you 21 ?" And he says — "No, I am not speeches, see what was said about 21 yet." In that case you must make the history of the relationship this complaint thfOugh your father." between the United Kingdom' and Tha is the sort of position Which this argument really is, when they say we the Isle of Man then. Think again: cannot go to the United Nations except Would it not even now be better if we through Great Britain. Now, sir, there got to know exactly where we stand? is however one good point which may Would it not be better "thenin case cOme frOni thig. This does at least under- there are other difficulties in the future'? line the weakness Of our position in so It has also been said, sir, that-this think far as the constitution of the Isle of Man today is an intellectual, academic sort is concerned. The Isle of Man at the of exercise of no great -importance'. moment has a constitution, like so many When all is said and done, all that is at of those countries associated with Bri- issue is a radio ship. Sir, yOu could tain, which is unwritten, which is flex- not be more wrong if that is what you ible, which develops, and which it is thought. I believe, sir, that if we allow the most difficult thing in the world to the British Government to enter unchal- tie anybody down to. Now, sir, as you lenged into the realm of government know, on the 22nd February this year I which has so far been the preserve of unsuccessfully attempted to ask Tyn- the Isle of Man, those very things men- wald to see what could be done about tioned by the learned Attorney reducing our constitution into writing happen. If we allow this to -happen so that each side would know where the what logical argument can we put - for- other stood, so that it could be clearly ward to prevent the United Kingdom stated — this Court belongs to the Isle Government from indeed removing the of Man and that Court belongs to Bri- birch, from indeed applying these tain. If that had been done, sir, if we curious Acts of which the Attorney knew exactly where we stood, if the npoke, to us by Order in Council? But "t's" were crossed and the "i's". dotted, more important, sir, what is there to I do not think this difficulty could occur prevent the United Kingdom from im- today. It is because of this doubt about posing upon us their own system of our constitution — a constitution which direct taxation ? I am one of those, sir, sometimes seems to me can be changed who believe that the prosperity of this to suit the needs of the United Kingdom Island is based upon our enlightened at times—it is because of that I think system of direct taxation. these difficulIies occur. You see, sir, the old relationship of benevolent paterna- Mr Callister: You are quite wrongl
Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council. 1842 TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967
Mr Simcocks: I are always happy, their hopeless amendment had been put sir, to be corrected by the hon. member and lost. Sir, the local Labour Party for North Douglas. I believe, sir, that would appear to be suffering from a this system of taxation is the basis of sort of split loyalty. They have their our prosperity; indeed it is the cause loyalty to their electors on the one hand, of much envy with certain journals and apparently, their loyalty to their from the south of Yorkshire, but I do Socialist brethren in the United King- think that if we were to allow a situa- dom on the other hand. The hon. mem- tion to arise where the full weight of ber for North Douglas asks me "when United Kingdom taxation came upon • we had that?" I would refer him, sir, to us, that the prosperity of the Isle of the 20th October, 1964. I lArould refer Man would disappear even more quickly him to pages 70 and 71 of volume 82 of than most certainly will the radio ships the Hansard, when the hon. member as soon as the Marine etc., Broadcasting attempted to raise as a matter of urgent Offences Act comes into play, whether public importance the necessity of Tyn- it be with the help of the Isle of Man wald pausing in its business in order or whether not. I have mentioned, sir, to extend to the British Government, the question or dictatorship; when I was the Socialist British Government, the speaking of dictatorship I was, of loyalty of the people of the Isle of Man. course, referring to the dictatorship of Now if that is the view of the hon. mem- one man. That one man, sir, is a man ber for North Douglas, perhaps the most who has demonstrated very clearly that vociferous member of our local Labour his word most certainly is not his bond. Party, it is not surprsing then that the If we do not join forces today to resist party is so anxious to avoid supporting what I regard as an aggression into our this measure which affects their friends area of government, if we are not care- on the other side on the one hand, ful, sir, we will find that the word of whilst on the other hand, doing what this man will become not his bond but they can to make the best face on our bondage— things—
Mr Corkish: Who is this man ? Name The Governor: Standing Order 99 — him. Continued Irrelevancy. — The motives of the Manx Labour Party are irrele- Mr Simcocks: And we must take steps vant. to protect ourselves. Members: Hear, hear. Mr Corkish: Who is this man ? Mr Sinicocks: I think I have made Mr Simcocks: Now with regard to the my point, sir. I will leave it to the tape question of the amendment of the to put that on record. (Laughter). I hon. member MT Meree. When the would like just to refer again to the terms of this amendment became amendment of the hon. end gallant known over Manx Radio, I had member for Ramsey. It would be with been approached by a number of per- great reluctance that I would support sons who are very apprehensive about this amendment. I feel that it is weak, this. They have said to me — quite and it is watering down what is the clearly, the Labour Party would like original resolution. The important thing to oppose this resolution, but obviously is, sir, we must not allow this matter to they do not wish to do it outright. They go unchallenged. We must take every would like to put forward an amend- step we can to oppose the British Gov- ment which they know would fail, but ernment in what I believe to be an which would give them the excuse for intrusion into our self-government, our voting against the resolution, after area, of domestic self-government. I
Application of United Kinqdom legislation by Order in 'Council. TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967 1843
hope I have made my point clearly that pointed out, for the committee which there is no doubt that this matter is has been appointed by Tynwald ex- doriieStie, even though wireless tele- pressly for this purpose to accept the graphy is rik Home Office invitation to discuss the matter with them before asking this Sir Ralph Stevenson: Your Exeeilehey, Court to accept such an extreme pro- I rise to oppose this resolution in itg bosal as an appeal to a United Nations entirety. I am not very deeply impressed Commitee. It is well, perhaps, sir,, that by the arguments that have just been the Court should take the two parts put fbi- v.vard by the hon. and learned of the resolat'on separately, and should member fOr Rue:hell. In fact, I think vote on them separately, for it might be tha: he made rather a weak reply to argued that the first nart is not so bad the Attorney-General's very excellent as the second. That may be so, but it is and completely factual statement. Now any a question of deoree. and I hope With respedt—With great respect, indeed that the Coitrt will reject both of them. — to the hon, and gallant mover whose I am convinced that :heir only effect Patriotic feelineS are undoubted, I con- will be to damage our relations with. Sider this resolution to be ill-conceived the United Kingdom on whom, we must and aisainst the interests both Of our remember, our economic prosperity de- Island and also of Great Britain. Despite pends. There is, moreover, another what has been said so far, I am still aspect of this matter. Your Excellency, not quite sure what the real objective which the Court would do well to bear of the reso:ution is. If it is merely a in mind. And here I speak not only for demonstration of indignation or of pro- myself, but for the Industrial Advisory test agains;, what is considered by its Council. 'Considerable efforts have been sponsors to be high-handed and unjust made in recent years to broaden the treatment, it is understandable, but it basis of our economy, and to lessen lags been drafted in such a way as to our absolute dependence on tourism by provoke. I fear, rather more hilarity. fostering the growth of light industry in both inside and ouside the Island than the island. Now these efforts have been anything else. It has often been said attended with a measure of success that any publicity is better than none, which it is hoped to increase in the but at the risk of appearing pompous future. Now we cannot afford to offer I must admit, sir, that I do not appre- the financial inducements which other ciate the Island being made the subject countries can. But' there are two or of more or less humorous cartoons. three main attractions to industrialists Members: Hear, hear. to open up here. The first of these is our relatively favourable tax struc- Sir Ralph Stevenson: And rather ture. The second is the fact that we patronising articles in the mainland are closely knit with the large and Press. Moreover, a serious protest or prosperous United Kingdom market. demons:ration against the activities of The third is the stability of our gov- Her Majesty's Government in the United ernment and administration. In the Kingdom should not contain false im- view of the Industrial Advisory plications, or baseless accusations. If, on Council nothing could be better de- the other hand. of course, the objective signed to destroy these attractions and of the hon. and gallant mover is to bring thus to hamper the development of about., by negotiation, a chancre in our our industry than the policy which relationship with the United Kingdom, is enshrined in this resolution. I have this is certainly not the way to go about said that I am opposed to both parts it Surely, Your Execellency, the right of it. My main objection to the first method is as the Attorney-General is the implication that Her Majesty's
Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council. 1844 TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST fl„ 1967
Government in the United Kingdom able amount of money on it, but we have enforced their domestic policies must admit that. if the Postmaster- on the Island. The hon. and gallant General did give way in our case it member, the mover of the resolution would put him in an impossible posi- is on record in the Press. I believe, tion with scores of other claimants on as saying it has nothing to do with the mainland. This is, as I say, irritating, Radio Caroline. That report was ob- but, it is far from enforcing domestic viously inaccurate judging from his policies on us against our will. One speech. But seeing that action against the so-called pirate radio is not a mat- would think when listening to some ter of domestic policy perhaps he will people that the whole of this and the in his reply detail the domestic United Kingdom Government of what- policies he has in mind, and despi:e ever political colour, spend their time the arguments of the hon, and learned thinking out ways and methods of frus- member for Rushen I do not, think that trating us, whereas it is the experience it is really a question of domestic of those who have had to deal most policy being enforced on. us by the with the officials in London and minis- United Kingdom Government in this ters, that as a general rule they are respect. The only time in My experi- uniformly helpful. But, Your Excel- ence that the United Kingdom Gov- lency. it is to the second part of the ernment come anywhere near infring- resolution my opposition is strongest. ing our domestic interests is in the First of en, what •earthly evidence, as matter of commercial sound radio. the Attorney-General said: can be put Personally, I do not think they have forward as to the intention on the part got a very strong case, but it is a de- of the United Kingdom administration fensible one. In effect, they do not to extinguish our right of self-govern- prevent us from having our own com- ment? I have no doubt that the commit- mercial radio, provided we keep it tee of the United Nations to which the within our Island as we do with other resolution refers, would go through the domestic policies entirely different motions of being helpful, but how, how from those of the United Kingdom is an intention to be investivated unless in which they do not interfere. At some definite action has been taken by the same time the United Kingdom the State under investigation ? Even Governrolent; do nothing about Radio the mover of the resolution would not. Luxembourg, nor indeed do they ad- I am sure, maintain that action taken by here very strictly to the international the United Kingdom to fulfil its inter- agreements on the subject of wireless. national obligations could be regarded as extinguishing our right of self- Mr MacDonald: They don't. government, and we should remember that that right was originally granted by Sir Ralph Stevenson: I said they do the U.K. to us and fostered and ex- not adhere very strictly. But they main- tended over the past 290 years. The so- tain that this does not force them to put called intention, Your Excellency, is a up with commercial sound radio which figment of the bon. mover's imagination. is within their control, and it is, since Finally, are we Manx people less British the Act of 1949. We asked for the Act than the Welsh, or the Nationalist of 1949 to be applied to us. This is very Scottish. The Welsh and Scottish irritating for us, as we cannot with the Nationalist movements are active — power that we are allowed have a sys- some would say even extreme in fur- tem that would cover the Island satis- thering what they consider to be their factorily without spending an unjustifi- rights as distinct peoples, distinct nations. But even they have not gone
Application of 'United Kingdom egislation by Order in Council. TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967 1845
as far as to propose appealing against gratitude for the wonderful free publi- the British Government to foreign coun- city that had been given to the Island tries. For the most part not particularly by her announcers, but at the same time friendly foreign countries at that. I can- should have also shown the British not believe that the hon. and gallant Government that we resented the en- forcement of such a measure on the Isle mover really considers the Island's of Man when Manx Radio was stifled interests would be best served in this from any further expansion of wave- way. I hope that the Court will deci- lengths to cover the North of England sively reject both parts of the resolution. where our tourist trade is mainly drawn I do not agree that there would be a from. In that debate I declared that stalemate if we do this, We have a com- international broadcasting agreements, which I understand (and I am open to mittee of Tynwald, it has been entrusted correction) are only agreements, and with the task of discussing with United cannot be enforced by law except inter- Kingdom all questions of our relations nally and locally by the countries who with that Government. Let them get on so desire, but these agreements were with it, and let us reject the resolution. made as an excuse by the British Gov- ernment In cover their real aims and Mr Vereker: Your Excellency, there the monopoly of the B.B.C. to keep control of future broadcasting cornmer-. is a well-known Manx saying — traa- cial stations. I can quite understand dy-liaoar — which has been likened in • the British Government being embar- meaning to the Spanish "manyana" and rassed by the presence of so-called to which the Island has often been pirate stations around their coasts, and . accused jokingly or otherwise, of adher- in effect being shown publicly how to ingin practice by delaying action, leaving run an efficient commercial radio sta- everything until later, or tomorrow. I tion, and yet at the same time gaining feel that the signatory support of the no control or gains from the way of tax. resolution before this hon. Court today But in their chagrin and inaction in — at least the elected representatives applying legislation, theirs should not of the Manx people — have realised be the right to enforce these measures that tomorrow has arrived (hear, hear!) on this Island, which is already being and are ready to take action to defend made known by its elected representa- the ancient rights of self-government in tives by rejection of such legislation. By domestic policies of this Island. When enforcement by Order in Council and by Radio Caroline anchored off Ramsey Her Majesty's pleasure in applying two or three years ago, little did _anyone such an Order to the Isle of Man we get realise that they were to be the cause the ridiculous situation of both branches of revolt and positive resistance to any of this Court having rejected and objec- continued interference and domination ted to such measures, and passing also by the present British Government in a petition to Her Majesty the Queen, matters of Manx domestic affairs .and the situation where we get our learned policies which we by ancient rights in Attorney-General, as a member of this Tynwald, in this hon. Court, are en- hon. Court of Tynwald honour bound titled to deterrnine by our own decisions to enforce Her Majesty's criminal law in one of the oldest democratic govern- within the realms of the Isle of Man. As rnents. Your Excellency, earlier this an Attorney-General appointed by Her year the elected representatives of Majesty. Yet as a Manxman (we sup- this hon. Court, by total rejection of the pose) and .part of this Court, he should Marine Broadcasting Offences Act, be defending our interests, not directly showed that not only did they openly opposing them, as we have heard by support Radio Caroline, by showing his establishment speech this morning.
Application of United Kingdom egislation by Order in Council. 1846 TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967
We have followed the rejection of the 111 by the Duke of Athol]. We were sold Manx Broadcasting Act, the Marine down the line like a piece of merchan- Broadcasting Act, by a petition to Her dise, regardless of the ancient history Majesty the Queen requesting her to take and government of this Island. notice of the wishes of the Manx people as expressed by this hon. Court when Mr Callister: We were saved from applying Orders in Council to the Isle destruction ! of Man. Subsequently a committee of hon. members met representatives of the Mr Vereker: We are going forward to Privy Council and discussed the possi- further c;e:.truction if we go on as we bility of agreeing to the ellinination of are. We are be:ng regarded now by the Caroline, providing we were given an existing British Government as a piece increased broadcasting power for Manx of merchandise, but now the purchaser Radio within our own shores. This I wants to own the goods solely and com- utterly reject as be'..ng very bad and pletely and treats us like a piece of back-handedlinipriinei.ple. It seems wrong nationalised commodity. 1, and all mem- to me that responsible members of Tyn- bers of this hon. Court, are more than wald should openly back Caroline iby loyal to Her Majesty the Queen as rejection of the Marine Boardcasting Lord of Mann, and neither would we be Act and then be prepared to stab her in very sensible, nor clear thinking, in this the back if they were allowed to expand hon. Court, to agitate for a U.D.I. as has Manx Radio. This to my nand is blatant been mentioned in various papers, or double-crossing, and members of the any sort of break from a good working Privy Council must have seen this, and relationship with Her Majesty's Govern- • I am not surprised they have rejected ment. But when the hum-an rights and the offered bargain. Under today's eir- freedom of a self-governing democracy cumsances, where this hon. Court really to determine its own matters of domes- wishes.to test the strength of the British lie policypolicy are threatened, it is time to Government, I would suggest as I did in stir out of the complacent traa-dy-liooar March that we bring Radio Caroline attitude and protest as a responsible ashore and establish her as a commer- body as others have done in past cial radio Manx station, using her very history with great effect. Apparently, experienced staff and equipment, and according to reports received and state- then challenge the rights of the Big men:s made by various members, the Brother to do anything about it. dictatorial attitude is now embracing the choice-of an all-important issue such ,Mr Kelly: What about Manx Radio ? as the Common Market. H we are to be given no choice in this matter, even Mr Vereker: I would still keep Manx after careful study of the problems Radio as a local wavelength station. involved, this could mean the end of They are doing a very good local ser- the Island's prosperity, its attractions vice, but in this case it would be very for permanent residents and industry, interesting to see which side of the and I would. venture to say possibly fence Her Majesty's Attorney-General, the end of this hon. Court. With all as a member of Tynwald, would be then. due respect, Your Excellency, and hon. Ida not envy his choice either way. But members of this hon. Curt, up until aS has been said, we have reached the now we as Tynwald have been akin to limit of endurance where a radio station a hunt being led astray by a too wily is no longer a fundamental issue at fox in the shape of Harold Wilson, who stake. Two hundred years ago the Island has been endeavouring to lead the pack lost its independence to the British to confusion and ultimate destruction. Crown by the fact that the islanders I would appeal to our M.F:H. to lead were sold out over their heads to George this bunt as a unified body in the shape
Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council. TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967 1847
of Tynwald, controlling its own func- The Speaker: The opening speech, tion, that of the right to our own domes- Your Excellency, at the Common- tic rule, and by voting for paragraph (a) wealth Parliamentary Assembly in 1966 of the resolution, let the fox Wilson contained these words: "In this modern know that he is wasting his time. On age the strength and unity of the the subject of paragraph (b), whilst I feel that we should make our protest Commonwealth family does not lie in in the strongest possible way, I also bonds forged by normal instruments, feel that we should not unduly pre- nor in common ancestry, nor in pursuing judice our present relations with the the same political line. It springs from British Government. We are too the knowledge that we all share a economically and geographically bound lively concern for individual freedom to the mother country for such a step and all the machinery which makes this as an approach to the United Nations. possible." Those, incidentally, are the This resolution to me suggests the words of Her Majesty. In 1965 possibility of a Manx U.D.I. which I the Commonwealth Prime Minisers feel is impossible and which I would met in the United Kingdom. They were not support. Therefore, whilst fighting informed by Britain of her liberal atti- strongly for the principle of item (a) tude to territories under her control, I cannot support item (b) as I consider and it is recorded and I quote, "The it a highly dangerous move, but hon. Prime Ministers of the other Common- members, I would. suggest them to sup- wealth countries noted with approval port the amendment as put forward by the further progress of British terri- the hon. and gallant member for tories to independent membership of Ramsey, Sir Henry Sugden. the Commonwealth since their last meeting. They welcomed the assurance The Speaker: Your Excellency, the of the Prime Minister of Britain that need to discuss a resolution such as this it remained the objective of his Gov- in a parliamentary assembly possessing ernment to lead to independence on the the historic background and democratic basis of democratic government, and principles of Tynwald is, I feel, in the principle of universal adult suf- itself a saddening and somewhat frage such of the remaining territories distressing experience. For ours, sir, as decide it and could sustain it, and has never been a community that has that the British Government" (and this sought extremes on nationalisation, on is important) "would continue to seek nationalism or indeed on any other to devise the most appropriate alter- issue. Over the years we have sought native arrangements for such smaller to excuse the shortcomings of successive territories as were unable, or unwill- United Kingdom Governments in their ing, to proceed to full independence." administrative deficiencies and outdated At the same time, at the United Nations colonialist attitudes, believing that a resolution was adopted by the ultimately things would right them- General Assembly with 97 nations vot- selves, and justice would be done to our ing in• favour including the United people, and Your Excellency, we have Kingdom. which stated "Immediate been fortified in this hope by speeches steps shall be taken in trust and non- from the throne such as Her Majesty's self-governing territories which have to the last Comnionwealth Conference not yet attained independence, to to be held in the United Kingdom. transfer all powers to the people in those territories without any conditions The Governor: Standing Order 100— or reservations in accordance with their Her Majesty's name must not be used freely expressed will and desire, with- to influence a debate. out distinction of race, creed or colour,
Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council. 1848 TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967
irf order to enable them to enjoy com- connection the resolution will have my plete independence and freedom." Your full support, Now Your Excellency, Excellency, regrettably we find, as in the this morning our learned Attorney- issue that has prompted this proposal. General has, without shame, told us of that the promise of such speeches and the constitutional position that exists the fulfilment can he two vastly differ- in ihe eyes of the Home Office. He has ent th:ngs, and that today this, the forgotten to say that it is broadly the oldest self-governing communily in the same constitution that was introduced world has been threatened with the 200 years ago. He has conveniently imposition- of laws against the wishes forgot:en to mention the hard-won Of its own Parliament. A violation of concessions, such as the one conveyed rights and an act of dictatorship, Your in the Secretary of Slate's letter to Sir • Excellency estabished rights have Ambrose Dundas in 1951 which read, also been withdrawn in certain places, "I am directed by the Secretary of notably Common Market negotiations, State to refer to Mr Scott's letter of and other issues have been treated the 8th March about the position of with impuni;,y, until I find myself the Channel Islands and the Isle of sapped of confidence in the fairness of Man in relation to treaties and inter- ;British administration and forced to nalional agreements applicable to the seek a Court of Appeal through some United Kingdom. If the Isle of Man authority. Whether that authority be Government agree a declaration should United Nations or the Commonwealth be made by His Majesty's Government Secretariat is immaterial, but it must accepting the obligations of each par- be an authority that is capable of re- ticular Convention on behalf of the Isle quirinLY Her Majesty's Government in. of Man Government, a declaration may the United Kingdom to conform to the specify such modifications Of the Con- democratic principles they consistently vention as may be necessary to adapt debase in their actions, and prostitute it to local conditions. In future, when in their desire to impose their own a Convention has been ratified by Her domeslic policies on this small com- Majesty's Government the Isle of Man rrninity. Hopefully, sir, over the years Government will be asked whether they we have tried to share in the evolu- w;sh such a declaration to be made: if tion of Her Majesty's colonial terri- at any time after a declaration had been tories and Crown dependencies, but made circumstances arose which made ours has been the lot of Cinderella. We it necessary to cancel, or modify the have nevex indulged in outbursts of declaration, this could be done in ac- nationalislic fervour, our attitude of cordance with the terms of the Con- goodwill, coupled with a desire to vention .. ." A great slep forward. Now. exercise the maximum degree of self- our learned Attorney-General has . government without independence, has omitted too, to mention the negotia- brought in re;;urn a poor reward in that ted right to remain out of the European. today our relationship with Her community if we so desire, and forgets Majesty's Government is probably the that breaches of these and similar most archaic in the Commonwealth and concessions by the United Kingdom has resulted in this outrageous and have been challenged consistently and blatantly undemocralic threat of im- I quote here from the minute of a meet- position of legislation in respect to a ing at the Home Office where the domestic issue. With the majority of spokesman for Tynwald, making refer- this Court, sir, I seek the restoration ence to a delay in replying to the re- of democratic rights whether the arbi- quest for the revocation of Orders in ters be the United Nations or the Com- Council said "That Tynwald's resolu- monwealth Secretariat, and in that tion followed a perfectly constitutional
Application of United Kingdom egislation by Order in Council, TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967 1849 course, and the Isle of Man wish for The Speaker; If Her Majesty's G-ov- no delay in these matters. The Island ernment, sir, persist in applying their had full power to control its own dogmas by. Order in Council against affairs, including matters arising out of our wishes. Yes, hon. members, we have had the facts as the learned Attorney- international conventions. When United Genera:, has wished to portray them to Kingdom legislation was extended to us, but they have revealed only part the Isle of Man as a matter of expedi- of the picture. They have omitted, ency, the extending Order in Council however, the important feature which was made on the advice of Tynwald over the years has been the unwilling- and the Queen in Council had never ness of the United Kingdgom contacts to accept for our country anything declined to accept this advice. There which was incompatible with their own were no grounds on which the request domestic policies. To complete the for revocation of 'Orders, extending the Attorney's word-painting today we Acts of 1949 and 1954, which bale need the hand of a master, and I would been mentioned, could be refused." Now refer to the same authority as the Your Excellency, the learned Attorney- learned Attorney-General himself General has also, in making his state- quoted — his predecessor. Mr R. B. ment of, fact this morning, failed to Moore — who wrote after prolonged inform members that had the rights negotiations at the Home Office these contained in the Secretary of State's words, "I have only to add that through- letter • been observed (and they have out the discussions which lasted for the not been) this situation would never greater part of two days there was have arisen and the resolution would It is a abundant evidence that we could not never have been conceived. regard the Home Office as representing point which members may wish to bear the interests of the Isle of Man in any in mind in reaching a conclusion — we case where the interests of the Isle of have not been told in this statement of Man and the United Kingdom called fact that the United Kingdom has within the past month withdrawn our right to for adjustment. The Home Office re- presents the Imperial Government and enter or reject entry to the Common the interests of that Government, and rket the Isle of Man must equally look after Mr Bolton: Who said that? and protect its own interests." Yes, hon members, today we must equally The Speaker: I say it. -look after and protect our own in- terests and in my view the position as The Attorney-General: On what outlined by that very great Manxman. authority? is and has been now for the greater The Speaker: 1 am saying it and you part of thirty years the real position, contradict it if you can. and 1 speak as one who, as Sir !Ralph has mentioned, has over many years Mr Bolton: We will! experienced the suave, negative dip- lomacy of those who tramp the corri- The Speaker: Good. An issue, Your dors of the Home Office, these men Excellency, which will shortly result in --supposedly responsible for our well- another situation such as this— being. With two exceptions in Sir Mr Bolton: Which one are we dis- Austin Strutt, and surprisingly per- cussing Your Excellency? . Is this haps, Sir Charles 'Cunningham. Yes, relevant, the Common Market, sir? they have thought more — but he at Least could stand on his own feet. They The Governor: Yes, it is relevant. have thought more of current British
Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council. 1850 TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967
policies and the need for us to con- ministrations alike, while political form to save them embarrassment than balances and party interests were at they have of the grandiose statements s:ake, until with a Party effectively in made by other sections of their admini- the saddle the issue was faced, and the stration designed to placate and play to the Commonwealth and United matter of the Island's conforming to Nations galleries. Your Excellency, I it was raised. Your Excellency in Exe- have no doubt that in considering this cutive Council plainly informed the resolution there are three points upon. United Kingdom authorities that while which there can be no dispute. The a Bill would be introduced here its first is the undivided loyalty of this acceptance or re:iection was a matter Island to the Lord of Mann. (Hear, hear). The second is that party for the branches of this Court. The politics at Westminster although per- Bill was introduced—the Bill was re- haps touched on this morning, do not jected, and the imposition by an Order enter into our discussions. Your Ex- in Council of the powers of 'that Bill cellency. the record of the United will undoubtedly have the effect, as Kingdom relations with. the Island has, hon.. members have stated, of making irrespective of party, been consistently Manx people criminals if they contra- bad. And the third noint is that by a vene its provisions. If ever, Your large majority, what I would term the Excellency, there was a violation of unfetted members of this assembly wish rights this is such a case, and as such, to see the resolution's sentiments im- I believe, must not go unchallenged. plemented in a manner which will Now if hon. members—you feel that secure belated recognition of our rights you are prepared on this issue to go on and this Ancient Parliament enjoying hoping that a protest alone as conveyed its proper status. Now, sir, where we in Part "A" of the resolution will do differ appears to be on what. this in turn lead to a better relationship, resolution is about, Some members you may think .again if I .tell you that try to read into it many side issues. We this practice of imposing Orders in have been told, for instance, of the Council against Tynwald's wishes will withdrawal of industrial interest if we increase unless you resist it. now. That persist in maintaining a stable Gov- already existing and established rights ernment here. I venture to suggest that of Tynwald have been withdrawn with- industrial interest will quickly be with- in the past month by Her Majesty's drawn if in fact there is a threat of Government, and I am referring to the imposition of outside government on point made by the hon. member for this Island. (Hear, hear). Your Excel- Castletown in reiation. to Common lency, we have made an appeal to the Market entry, and I am speaking now Privy Council, and, Your Excellency, as one of the team that negotiated the our appeal has been rejected. Two Island's position on an earlier occasion of the Ministers sitting in judgment, in —I have studied all the relevant docu- a court of four, on their own decision. ments, and 1 can confirm that right For many years now responsible for our through those talks at no time was own domestic affairs we are to have in there any doubt that we could take our this 20th century United Kingdom in- own decisions on joining the European. tervention in what is undoubtedly a Economic Community. W i :hout as domestic matter, because we refuse to much as by your leave this consti- conform to their policy. We know that tutional right has been withdrawn. Her for years the issue involved in this Majesty's 'Government have thereby particular legislation was sidestepped transgressed every principle of democ- by both Conservative and Labour ad- racy, giving the lie, sir, to the sancti-
Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council. TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8. 1967 1851 monious hypocrisy, as I see it, of that The Speaker: It was in connection with Government's expressed support for Common Purse negotiations. Now, Your democratic rights. With such people, Excellency, agreed Orders in Council hon. members, protest alone will avail for which we have sought repeal have you nothing. I believe our protest must remained, as their repeal would in fact possess two essentials if it is to suc- effect some current policy of the United Kingdom Government. Our continental ceed. The first is the strength of truth shelf oil rights were sequestered by the -and it has that. And the second—it British Government, and only after the must have an organisation that oper- strongest possible intervention was de ates on democratic principles to con- facto recognition given to our rights. sider it, and the amendment or the re- Our agreements in relation .to air trans- solution would Rive you that. I am not port was withdrawn with less than two speaking of the Labour Party amend- hours' notice to this government. For ment, because that amendment, as far years we hove endured the nuisance of as I am concerned is right out of court, sonic booms over our coastline through it is unrealistic, it is a "red herring" test flights by British aircraft, getting across the trail. Your Excellency, I an assurance each time there would be make these submissions to the Court no repetition while the next day would thIs morning because, sir, for too long witnesd an even more violent explosion. we have witnessed our interest in in- ternational conventions treated with MT Kelly: What about the seamen's contempt. There never appeared, as strike ? these hon. members well know, to be sufficient time for consultation to take The Speaker: Our fishing, YOUT Excel- place before they are applied to the lency, is curtailed by United Kingdom Isle of Man, and let the Attorney- bombing ranges within our territorial General contradict that! And, Your waters on the grounds that no other Excellency, I would quote you a typical suitable range exists in the British Isles. reply to submissions from this Island Our desire to have commercial radio has to the Home Office. This is it. We been dominated, not by international have had in mind for some time the conventions, but by British domestic knowledge that we have not given the policy, because even today we could Isle of Man authorities anything much turn up the power on Manx Radio and in the way of information about the keep in line with international conven- progress of the negotiations, and the tion and magnify it by at least 150 times implications for the Island since the the Present power. Sir, I could go on to meeting last year, but the negotiations enumerate grounds of dissatisfaction on which so much depends, as you will where protests made have availed us appreciate, are in a very fluid state. We nothing. If hon. members, however, are in a process of discussing these mat- still have .reservations and believe the ters with other departments concerned. United Kingdom will accept OUT submis- and we expect to be able to send an in- sions, I suggest that that would be vitation for a further conference next against the verdict of history, for his- week. I am sorry I cannot be more tory reveals that such governments precise, but I am sure you will appre- rarely act until they are pushed. Let me ciate the difficulty is one of timing." quote a well-known Labour parliamen- That is the sort of trite reply we con- tarian, Patrick Gordon-Walker, who in sistently get. his book " The Commonwealth" says, " Time and again it is the British Gov- Mr Callister: In connection with what ernment which evades, postirxmes or was that ? temporises while other governments
Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council. 1852 TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967
press on to secure yet another of the passed that although the United King- requirements that were patently dom did allow us to do it within our needed." He mentions that one device own shores, they did not allow us to counter the rising tide of what he to appoint agents in the United King- termed "democratic subversion" was dom, because they, themselves, did not through that invention—the Crown allow these lotteries, and many of us Colony. Predictably enough, he says. have agreed with the suggestion that, " The rigidity of such administrations provided we did things within our own wa9 threatened by the rising tide of Island, and did not interfere in any way nationalism, but in most cases White- with the domestic policy of the United hall was able to hold off for another Kingdom, that the United Kingdom half century before having to grant invariably would allow us to do A. B representative Legislative Councils." and C, and we find no evidence whatso- and he states that it was from this less- ever of this at any time being inter- than-liberal empire that there sprang, fered with. This theory is subscribed to without design, indeed, against Britain's by the hon. member for Rushen, MT intention, the Commonwealth. Hon. Simcocks, who, although he supports members, today we are proudly, but wholeheartedly the resolution that :s perhaps somewhat ironically, members before us, he said, in another Chamber, of a free Commonwealth of Nations. I on the 7th March, "in recent years Her think it is fitting that we should turn .Majesty's Government have not sought to them in the first instance to secure to intervene with the domestic legisla- a redress of our grievences, because if tion of the Island, save only so far as today we wish to ensure a future which, it is necessary to ensure that the admin- in the words of our National Anthem istration of financial affairs of the will be " as free as our sweet mountain Island are conducted on a proper basis." air," then this Court, 1 submit, must This, I think, is universally agreed by support without division a resolution us all that we have had to date no inter- which is not only capable of protest, but ference whatsoever from the United of making such a protest stick. Kingdom Government in our own affairs— The Governor: The court will now adjourn until 2.30 p.m. Mr Simcocks: I was quotIng the Home The Governor: Mr Nivison. Office. Mr Nivison: Your Excellency, the Isle Mr Nivison: I am quoting from you, of Man formany reasons over the years sir. has always tended to exploit positions whereby they could strengthen the base Mr Simcocks: You are quoting my of their economy. One of the greatest quote ? examples of this, was the fact that they were able to close their roads and allow Mr Nivison: Yes, quoting your quote. T.T. Races to be held in the Isle of Man whereas in the United Kingdom this Mr Simcocks: Thank you, sir. was not permissible. From time to time Mr Nivison: Of the 7th March— we have sought other means of trying to strengthen the base of our economy Mr Sinicocks: Of the Home Office. and we must not be condemned for this. We have tried over the years such Mr Nivison: This if7 what you stated. things as casinos, lotteries — although it must be confessed so far as lotteries Mr Simcocks: I was quoting what the are concerned — here a remark was Home Office said.
Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council. TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1907 11353
Mr Nivison: Yes, I think you have as bringing Caroline ashore, it is not also agreed with those sentiments as a possibility. We must establish that. you stated in the House of Keys, and Somebody said we would bring Caroline you agreed today — and you said when ashore and we perhaps would make a asked, when challenged, "This is the bit of money out of them. I have no first time that something of this nature doubt that if we were to invite the is happening." I said that we all sub- train robbers here and offer them sanc- scribe to this theory that we would like tuary we might be able to derive some to find the means of bringing addi- money from them. I have no doubt. but tional revenue to the Island. I think we are committed so far as I am aware, there are many in this Chamber who to the Manx Radio and if any commer- hope that commercial radio would be cial radio is to succeed in the Isle of a possibility in the Isle of Man, not Man it is to be the one we are com- only for the 50,000 people of the Isle mitted to — Manx Radio. Now in the of Man, but to cash in on the bigger speeches this morning the hon. member markets of the United Kingdom. This for Castletown, the hon. and gallant exercise was first tried by Mr J. H. L. member Commander Vereker, made Cowin over 30 years ago — over 30 rel'erence to certain members saying they years ago — with no success. It was were prepared to throw Caroline over subsequently tried again and again by — these were not his exact words — if our great friend, the late member or we could get a station of our own. Here ex-member for Castletown, Mr Cole- he is condemning one of his own sup- bourn, who probably put too much paint porters, who said, again on the 7th on the canvas, and did inform us that March, my hon. friend from East Doug- when we would get this particular las, Mr Irving, said, "I am prepared to station we would earn millions a year. agree to torpedo Radio Caroline when won't say the number of millions, and if we could get a Manx Radio with some say six, some Say five, some mil- sufficient power, but not until then." Lions anyway., a year. Not from the Mr Irving: I would agree to Radio people of the Isle of Man but from the people of the United Kingdom, and Caroline buying Manx Radio too. only because this type of radio was not Mr Nivison: Ah, but don't qualify permitted in the United Kingdom. If what you said previously. You will have it was perinttted in the Uited Kingdom; that opportunity. I want to make it I do not think we would have seen abundanty clear that it is my opinion, Caroline in Ramsey Bay, it would have the hon. member for Peel, who is in been safely entrenched somewhere in charge of this motion, has told me in the United Kingdom, and we have tried. no uncertain terms, that he is satisfied Now when this matter came before one that Caroline will go at the appointed of the branch.e:, of the Legislature, some date and he— of us felt, perhaps, the legislation was coming a bit early. We felt that it was Mr MacDonald: No, I haven't. being, we were being asked. to pass this legislation before even the United King- Mr Nivison: Haven't you ? dom has passed it, and some of us felt Mr McDonald: Not at the appointed that we should still use it as a bargain- date. ing pont for our own Manx Radio for whom we have commitments. We are Mr Nivison: Well it is an established committed to Manx Radio and there fact that Caroline will ultimately go are certain people who have spoken this and, when I rose to my feet I was going morning who know quite well that we to pose the question "What is this all are committed to Manx Radio and as far about?" Some papers have stated that
Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council, 1854 TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, l967 it is in defence of Radio Caroline. Some far and I want to make it abundantly papers have stated that. Other papers clear that the resolution before us iS have stated that it is in defence of the not based on fact at all. It has become Manx nation's independence. I would somewhat emotional and I would say say that I have lived here all of my life: that some of the utterances — I love I have been a member of the Legisla- listening to Radio Caroline — I would ture for approximately 20 years and we like to see a means of sustaining such have not yet felt this yoke on our a wonderful programme for the young- shoulders of suppression or depression, sters but I heard it at lunch time and I or interference, from the United King- almost got up and stood at attention dom whatsoever, but I would say, Your when they were playing the Manx Excellency, that as a member of the National Anthem. This nation that was Government of the Isle of Man and as fighting for its dear lite and freedom, the chairman of a responsible Board, fighting the entire world, and this we have had terrific co-operation with oppressive United Kingdom was getting certain departments in the United King- at the very throat of this little nation_ dom. In the Social Services Board of Even the announcer that followed this which I have been chairman for many tape recording had some humour in his years, they have gone out of their way voice about the sentimentality of the to assist us in every possible way and announcement that Came over. It's they have pointed out to us where we stirring stuff and this is the stuff that could benefit very, very substantially, has been put through the length and financially too. With regards to our breadth of the United Kingdom and Health Services it is known that the this is the reason why our galleries are number of cases that are treated in the full today, and we welcome all of the United Kingdom, of Manx people, of journalists that have come from far Manx residents here, the amount o: and wide. We wish you would come work that is done, i.s enormous. We, in more often and we wish you would turn, of course, treat our visitors when come on matters where there is pos- they come to the Isle of Man, but, on sibly no blood to be spilt. Where pos- balance, we get a very much bette. • sibly no heads are to roll, but then this deal, and in education, I know there will is the sort of stuff that does influence a be speakers following that will tell of great deal of interest and here we might the enormous amount of financial assis- say to Mr MacDonald, the mover, that tance. So any papers that have stated perhaps he has not done too bad a job that they are of the opinion that there in arousing the interests of so many are certain Manxmen standing up for people in this particular subject but the rights and independence, that we when we have said that we must get should break off our relationship with down to realities and try and get what the United Kingdom— we are after. I am still one of those who would like to see commercial radio in Mr Kelly: Who has said all this ? the Isle of Man. I would like to see greater power being given: I can under- Mr Nivison: I have not said that you stand the reason why this is not forth- said it, my friend. coming--
Mr MacDonald: I haven't said it. Mr MacDonald: We have got com- Mr Nivison: I have said that it had mercial radio now. been hinted at in some of the papers. Perhaps you are not debating but I Mr Nivison: Of greater power, my am permitted to say it, Your Excellency. friend. I am aware of this. I have lived You will tell me, perhaps, if I go a little on the Island longer than the hon. mem-
Application of United Kingdom egislation by Order in Council. TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967 L855 her. He thought fit to go and seek from the Privy Council at Whitehall, it service in the service of the United does say "Her Majesty approved the Kingdom for quite a time— committee's report and I am to enclose a copy of the Order in Council for your Mr MacDonald: I served the Crown. information. A sealed copy of the Mr Nivison: Did you? Order has been forwarded to Her Maj- esty's Principal Secretary of State for Mr MacDonald: Yes. the Home Department for formal trans- mission to the Isle of Man Government." Mr Nivison: I see, and the Crown It then goes on to say "an Order in paid you, did they ? I understand Council will be submitted for approval that the taxpayers of the United King- of Her Majesty in Council as soon as dom pay the Servicemen of the Isle of may be, extending the Marine etc., Man and they paid me my pittance Broadcasting Offences Act to the Isle when I was in the Services too and they of Man." I am of the opinion that there are still paying the Servicemen in the is still time to ask His Excellency to Isle of Man— convey the wishes of this Court that Mr MacLeod: What has that got to Her Majesty may sustain her hand until do with this? For goodness sake get such time as we have had the oppor- back to the resolution. tunity ourselves of dealing with an affair of our own, and this is the meat Mr Nivison: In my own good time. of the amendment as proposed by Mr Now I want to say with regard to McFes — in order that we might do it the hon. member for Rushen- ourselves, because what is to be done is not so much inflicting any hardship Mr MacDonald: Some didn't serve. upon the people of the Isle of Man, Mr Nivison: Well, they may not have it is to prevent an embarrassment to been able, my friend. I do not condemn the United Kingdom. Caroline is not in them. the shores of Ramsey particularly for the people of the Isle of Man but for Mr MacLeod: Mr Nivison was a mem- the people of the United Kingdom, from ber of the Air Force. I can vouch for whence it derives its income through that. advertisements; from whence it derives its listening public. The numbers of MT Nivison: That is right. Now, I people that listen to Caroline in the want to make same reference to the Isle of Man would not warrant the amendment that is before us which I enormous amount of money that is paid wauld like to second, Your Excellency, for the advertisements over Caroline. the amend.nent as proposed by Mr and if they were not permitted to broad- IsleFee and it was stated by the hon. cast to the United Kingdom, I do share member i'or Rushen, if he would listen the sentiments passed that Caroline for a moment— would not remain here very long. So in Mr Simeocks: I can't help hearing. seconding the resolution I would hope that it would be possible for us to ask Mr Nivison: Thank you Very much. His Excellency if he would convey the He d'd seem to suggest that the Order message from the Tynwald Court that in Council was now fait accompli and we might ask Her Majesty to withdraw and I would draw his attention to a the Order and in the meantime we, our- letter that was submitted to members selves, should endeavour to get what we saying — it is true that we have had a are after. You cannot get what you are sealed copy of what the Order should after by trying to be a big nation. We be and in the letter of the 31st July cannot do it on our own. We cannot do
Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council. 11356 TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 1qti1
it without the assistance of the United affect the fate of Caroline. I think all Kingdom Government. There is no ques- would recognise that. So let us try and tion in my mind about that and we, in- adopt a method whereby we can enter stead of kicking the United Kingdom into serious negotiations with the Government, whichever Government it United Kingdom Government in the is, because they have, although there hope that Our Manx Radio May get niore be able to serve more people was a division on this Bill incidentally, power to It was just purely because whatever and I think this is a better method party was in power, the other would than resorting to the United Nations or have been in opposition to it. This is even to the Secretariat of the Common- the normal pattern in the United King- wealth Parliamentary Association. I feel sure that the case, particularly :dom. During the 13 years of the other party's Government, they had indicated after the very eloquent speech of the learned. Attorney, which would, they that they would take some steps to obliterate this nuisance that has been would make reference to this in any provided internationally and there is no Court that this matter was to . be dealt question about it, that the Government with, the official opinion, as given by of the United Kingdom do wish to regu- •the Attorney-General, would be taken larise the question of broadcasting. I and I believe we would have no case believe, that we in the Isle of Man could whatsoever to put to either the Com- well, by persuasive methods, get our monwealth Secretariat or the United own radio station enlarged; get it in Nations, but with our friends in the such a position that it could do a certain i United Kingdom, and we have many amount of broadcasting and I would riends- urge that the Court should give further Mr MacDonald: You have. consideration to the amendment that is proposed. I am not going to make any Mr Nivison: You have a It of friends, reference to the nonsense that is sug- my friend. Mr MacDonald is constantly gested about going to the United jibing. I am a member of the Labour Nations. This has been ridiculed in Party, so was Mr MacDonald for many many places — in many papers —I Years until he felt it more convenient myself was in London for seven days to gain the support of the electors by last week and found that it was treated seeking Independence-- humorously. They were treating it as somewhat of a joke, associating it with Mr MacDonald: Until I served my "Mon Generale" and all sorts of things. lime in London. Humour was the essence of the day. We want to take the humour out of this. It Mr Nivison: It had nothing to do with is a very serious question. The Isle of the changing of his political persua- 'Man has a serious responsible Govern- sions.- He thought he would be able to ment. We want to get something and gain success easier by backing every the best way to get it is not by these horse in the race- kind of methods. I know it is nice to Deemster Kneale: He wanted to be beat the drum. I have beaten it quite a lot in my day, Your Excellency, this Independent. is not the hour to beat the drum. We Mr MacDonald: I was bound to win. want to take a serious view of this, with a view to getting our own com- Mr Nivison: You were bound to win mercial radio. We must recognise of course. You back every horse in the Caroline, whether we like it or not, race and you are bound to win. I would and whatever we do today will not urge that— forget parties and so forth affect the fate of Caroline. Will not — I would say, Mr Speaker, how de-
Application of United Kingdom egislation by Order in Council. TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 15367 1857 lighted we were to hear your contribu- upon which to base the application to . tion on this particular subject, because the British Government to effect what, I think It absolutely right. It was rather Tynwald desires. The resolution nomi.,. naughty. I thought, of the hon. member before the Court, Your Excellency, ,i,s, for Castletown to make reference to the obviously the outcome of a. single. issue' Prime Minister of England in the way relating to the suppression of the radio he did, regardless of who that man ship Caroline, and that may.well be. a • should be and I would hope that he vcry good reason why the British . would not do that. This is not always Government want to retain the power the best way to get things done by to have Orders in Council. Your Excel- skitting at people, by being naughty lency, this issue in regard to Radio and the amendment I believe, is a more Caroline is of very little importance to businesslike way of trying to get some- the Isle of Man. ac• far as I am con-. thing we are after, The other way of cerned, but what I an rather concerned course is good for drum beating and about is that th's Government is under.. headlines and all the rest of it but even- the shadow of the Common Market and tually we will get nothing out of it. I with all the implications that would he second the amendment and hope that imposed upon this Island, if ever it had somebody will add to this amendment to enter into the European Economic the deletion of "A" as well as "B". I Community, would be disastrous, so I intend to vote against the resolution in would be prepared to support any reso- its entirety but hope that the amend- lution on the lines that I have men- ment might be passed with the deletion tioned ir such a resolution was moved. to "A". but I will certainly vote against this resolution that is here before the Court The Governor: Mr MacLeod. today. • Mr MacLeod: Your Excellency, as The Governor: The member for Garff. has already been stated by the learned Attorney-General there can be no ques- Miss Thornton-Duesbery: Your Excel- tion whatsoever about the Crown lency, I rise to support, Indeed to second having power to make Orders in Coun- because I think it has not yet been done, cil. For instance in 1961 there were the amendment proposed by the hon... seven Orders in Council made embrac- and gallant member for Ramsey. I . do ing the Isle of Man. Over and above so with a sense of relief and of hope_ that • the Parliament in London have which I trust may be shared by the power by Act of Parliament to impose majority of members of this hon. Court,. any Act they pass if it especially men- as they consider its terms. I believe, if tions the Island or the Island is so carried, this amendment would .meet included by necessary implication. If the wishes of the great majority. of• the Tynwald is satisfied that the people of people of this Island whom we here the Island desire the abolition of the have the honour and very great respon- power of Parliament and the power of sibility to represent. _They, and .-we, the Queen in Council to pass legislation ourselves, rightly cherish, and indeed embracing the Island, I do not think are determined to preserve our ancient that an approach to the United Nations right of self-government. We are pro- is the best step to take, Your Excel- foundly disturbed by actions of the lency, I would prefer in place of the United Kingdom Government which resolution a resolution requesting the may in any way threaten these rights. appointment of a commission including At the same time, I believe I speak fpr legal experts in constitutional law, to very many, when I say that we .have investigate the problem and to prepare serious doubts and fears as to the a sound case, if such a case exists, wisdom of the course of action proposed
Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council. 1858 TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967 in the resolution moved by the hon. this, I don't think for a minute that member for Peel. Such is an extreme this is what they wanted, but when I measure and might well damage, rather did see such remarks as were credited than further our cause. Is there no to the hon. mover of the resolution other way, no other body to whom -we when asked what would happen if can apply for aid, more in proportion England sent soldiers over here, he said and context to our needs? Here, I be- he would be prepared to fight them. lieve, Your Excellency, in this amend- This makes me wonder where we are ment the hon, and gallant member for Ramsey sets such a way before us, I going. I have been in many fights in my understand that the Commonwealth life, both with words, fists and guns, Secretariat is empowered to take action and I am not in the habit of running when require& It has teeth. It is surely away, but to start fighting on behalf the body we need to help us at this criti- of Radio. Caroline, to my mind is so cal juncture in our affairs. It is with real ridiculous that I wouldn't even contem- confidence that in this amendment we plate it. In fact I would help the British have a sound course of action set before Government all I can to sink it and the us and the one most likely to produce sooner we do this the better and get it results, that I beg to second it. out of the road, the sooner we will be able to see where we are going— The Governor: Mr Kneale. Mr Kelly: That is only your view Mr Kneale: Your Excellency, it has that. been said that Harold Wilson has gone to the Scilly Isles but having read all Mr Kneale: We have lost sight of our the stufl that has been published in the original intention which was to get a papers last week, I wonder where the high-powered commercial radio station Scilly Isles really are. It is a well-known for the Island. Some members have fact that this is the silly season for the gone off at a tangent, shouting "hands newspapers. Parliament is in recess and off Caroline" and "we want independ- everybody is on holiday and they have ence," It is time we stopped to think what got to find something to write about and this is all about and how we have arrived this has been a glorious opportunity at this situation. As other members of given to them to fill their papers and the Court have already said, and I think they have gone to town. If this was in- members should be reminded over and tended as a publicity stunt it has been over again about this, in 1952 the Manx a huge success but if it was meant as Government asked the United Kingdom a serious resolution then I am afraid Government to extend the 1940 Wire- that by the utterances that have been less Telegraphy Act to the Isle of Man, quoted in the Press of some members, by Order in Council, which put the it has turned into a Gilbert and Sullivan allocation of wireless transmitters comic opera, and this is a pity because I entirely in the hands of the Postmaster- consider it is a most important discus- General. Tynwald at that time may not sion and the reason why I signed the have known the implications of what request for this Tynwald to be called. they were doing but they asked for this. Not because I agreed with the terms of In 1954 a TelevisiOn Act was introduced the resolution but I felt that the matter into the United Kingdom Parliament should be discussed publicly. All this and the Isle of Man was asked- whether talk about and total independ- we wished the Act to be extended to ence is so ridiculous as to be not even us by Order in Council. Tynwald agreed mentioned. I do not think any of the and. passed a resolution asking for such members, even though they have been an extension. In October 1961 Mr Cole- quoted in the papers as claiming for bourn moved. a resolution in Tynwald
Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council. TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967 1859
requesting Her Majesty the Queen by country concerned. The United King- rd ill GOunell to revoke the Tele- dom representatives then went on to say vision Act 1954 (iSie a Man) Order that "if the termination of the applica- 1957 and this was carried unanifflOusly, tion to the—'— Ig,.77;f Man of the W4ii7&I In January 1962 Mr Colebourn moved a Are1949 was to be con- further resdlutien asking the Queen to sidered the United Kingdom Govern- revoke the Wireless Telegraphy (Isle of ment----- wO_Wd_wish_to_he_assured - that_ tlae Man) Order 1952 and again this wäS Isle of Man could, and would, continue to honour these obligations," to which carried unanimously. This was the final the Isle of Man delegation replied "that act of a dying House of Keys. Later in 1962 a nOw Hotise of Keys brought in the Isle of Man had no desire to act the Wireless Telegraphy 3i1i and passed contrary to international agreements or it and this was to enable US to set up to cause interference with the recep- our own station. This was passed tions in other territories." The request through all readings of both branches for a powerful station to extend over and again Was accepted unanimously. the mainland was dropped by the Manx In 1959 the United Kingdom Government Government and in September 1962 a had ratified the International Telecom :ormal request was made to the United munication Convention of Geneva 1959 Kingdom Government that the Isle of on behalf of the Isle of Man, without con- Man should. as a separate entity, have uS but as, far as I can see no-one a service for the Island only and one in the Island objected and it was April which could be commercial if Tynwald 1962 when a delegation_frolg-Tynwald so desired. This request was accepted met officers of the Poet Office and Home by the United Kingdom and Manx Radio Office, at the Home Office to discuss the came into being. We had then got our two resolutions passed by Tynwald that foot in the door Of radio transmission. the matter was next raised and when The arrival of Radio Caroline, I believe Mr Colebourn said that he objected to it was in 1964, has proved to be a dis- it having been passed without consult- traction from our main objective and ing us, Sir, Charles Cunningham_ who instead of getting our shoulder to the presided, had this to say in his opening door and heaving, once we got our fool, remark — "The demand for frequencies in, we started pulling, recently, in the could and often did exceed the supply wrong direction. And some members of which made it essential to co-ordinate this Court who were in the delegation their use in accordance with interna- to the Home Office in April 1962 and tionally agreed plans. This was one of had assured the United Kingdom repre- the main objects 411.f. the Convention. In sentatives that the Isle of Man had no consequence, there had to be one final desire to act contrary to international authority to control the use of frequen- agreements or to cause interference cies in the United Kingdom and Islands, with reception in other territories, in order that the United Kingdom openly expressed support for Radio Government could honour these inter- Caroline, who, without a doubt, is acting national obligations." Then ha goes on contrary to international agreements — "one of the most important obliga- and is definitely interfering with trans- tiong—WS that transmitters in one missions in other countries — to such country should not interfere with those an extent that one country had warned iapei'a-tiiiin &t her This meant the United Kingdom that if they do not hat transmissions shou not be at a take immediate action to remove Cam- power exceeding that necessary to line then that country intends to jam maintain a satisfactory standard of all the United Kingdom Home Service service within the boundaries of the stations. It is no good arguing that be-
Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council. 11160 TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1087
cause Caroline is outside the three mile Marine Broadcasting Bill to the Isle of limit that what they are doing is right. Man, being submitted for her approval Wherever their situation what they are in Council, Mr Simcocks made reference doing is internationally wrong. The to Orders in Council having alreaay United Kingdom Government should been signed but the hon. member of have acted long ago over Caroline and Council, Mr Nivison, has dealt with the other pirate stations and should this and 1 hope the confusion can be have got shut of them before they were absolutely cleared by the Governor firmly established.. Other countries giving his assurance that no sealed copy when they were faced with the same of the Order in Council to extend the issue of pap stations round their coasts Marine Broadcasting Bill has been acted immediately and got rid of these received in the Isle of Man— people without any fuss. The House of The Governor: Yes, I can. Keys made a major political blunder when they rejected the Marine Broad- Mr Kneale: Remembering the words casting Bill. To imagine that by so of Messrs. Simcocks and Irving, Her doing that they would use this as a Majesty had thus refused to protect us lever to force the British Government from the threat of aggression from to give us more power for Manx Radio Whitehall and was pleased so to do. was just pious thinking. All it showed was that some members could not be Mr Irving: I didn't say that. You said relied on to support international agree- that, not me. ments ratified on our behalf, whether Mr Kneale: I am quoting what is on we had been consulted or not — we the petition that has been sent to us: were tied up by this ratification. Not She was pleased so to do." Now what content with that we followed it up by is the next logical step ? Should we sack another political blunder.,T,ynwald,b, q. Her Majesty as Lord of Mann ? The majority vote, der...Wei:I not to start resolution before us today starts oil by nTgi:, 71 ) -i-arions with the U-n-TiTd—Kmg,- . re-affirming the loyalty of this Island Uovernment but to by-pass them and to Her Majesty the Queen as Lord of 1 I petition Her Majesty the Queen Lord Mann and finishes up by saying we '..11, - oflyfann: To quote the words of the should report her action in rejecting ° mover of that resolution, the hon. mem- our petition to the committee of United ber for Rushen, Mr Simcocks, This Nations charged with protecting the petition is an appeal to Her Majesty to interests of colonial and subject people. protect us, her loyal subjects, from the Remember it was the Queen that we , threat of aggression of Whitehall," and petitioned • in the words of the hon, member for East Douglas, Mr Irving. in support, The Governor: Under Standing Order who said, "this petition is an appeal to 100 you are getting very close to being the Lord of Mann for Her protection out of order. against Her Parliament in Westmin- Mr MacDonald: Why should he go on ster." The petition was duly sent with this, sir ? to Her Majesty and it was she who handed it over to the Privy Council to Mr Kneale: I am quoting what took deal with. A deputation from Tynwald place in this Court. was received by a committee of the Mr MacDonald: It is nothing to do Privy Council to hear any elaboration with the resolution, of the Manx case. The result of all this was that the petition was rejected and Mr Kneale: Oh yes it has. The petition Her Majesty was pleased to approve of that went from this Court was one to an Order in Council extending the the Queen.
Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council. TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967 1861
The Governor: I will just read Stand- Mr Kelly; You are quite wrong there. ing Order 100 "No member may use Her Majesty's name irreverently in Mr Kneale: The number of staying debate or for the purpose of influencing visitors has gone down since Caroline Tynwald in its deliberations." arrived from a yearly average of 368,000 for four years prior to her arrival Mr Kneale: I will do neither of those The Governor: The hon. member is things sir. I was just saying that this straying over the boundary of relevancy. Court sent a petition to the Queen. That is what I have said arid, I have said Mr Kneale: Caroline has been defi- what the Queen's reply was — facts. nitely tied up with this. I am referring Radio Caroline's chief has been praising to the remarks made on Caroline, sir, the action of this House of Keys in supposed to be supporting our demands throwing out the Marine Broadcasting for a station. I am just showing you Bill and has compared the Isle of Man how ridiculous these claims are. How- to David fighting the Goliath of Mr ever, I bow to your ruling and will — the smallest Goliath I have ever make no further reference to the people come across, and added "this takes guts that Caroline has brought to the Island. and we will be right behind them." I I think the Court should correct the am sure we find this all very reassuring. mistake made by the House of Keys in We should make it quite clear to him_ rejecting the Marine Broadcasting Bill that we in this Island are not so gullible and I move an amendment to paragraph as to fall for this blarney and we should "A" of this resolution. That the follow- also make it quite clear to him that ing words should be added — "and re- flattery will get him nowhere in this quests the United Kingdom to extend issue. The mover of the resolution, Mr the Marine Broadcasting Offences Act MacDonald, as chairman of the Broad- to the Isle of Man by Order in Council." casting Commission, knows full well I support the mover of this resolution that our duty is to Manx Radio, and he in believing that we should state that has declared on many occasions that he we are not having any interference with is not interested in Caroline. Let him our internal affairs, our domestic prove that by sinking Carolinday„ affairs, but Radio Caroline is certainly so that we can ge saconh-e- no domestic affair. Radio Caroline on reaLball — more powerorr— oT"- t- )v=- our doorstep is an international affair .2tation — an then we shall have a and is an encumbrance to the Island unanimous Tynwald again on this issue and to the British Government, and an 0 a_s_w_e_ha_d_uali,et us stop play- embarrassment. That does not mean ing lackey to Caroline and act respon- that I think the United -1