REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF COURT

Douglas, Tuesday, August 8, 1961'

Present: The (Sir Peter That Tynwald, conscious of its ancient Stallard, K.C.M.G., C.V.O., M.B.E.). In rights and privileges, representing as it does the liberty of the and re- the Council: The Lord Bishop (the affirming the loyalty of this Island to Her Right ReV. George Eric Gordon, M.A.), The Queen as — De.emster S. j: Kneale, C.B.E., the (a) rejects as incompatible with the free- Attorney-General (Mr D. D. Lay. T.D.), dom of a self-governing democracy the enforcement by Orders in Council of Sir Ralph Stevenson, G.C.M.G., Messrs. the domestic policies of Her Majesty's J. B. Bolton, J. H. Nicholls, 0.B.E., Government in the on J. C. Nivison, H. H. Radcliffe, the people of this Island against their wishes, as expressed by their elected T. F. Corkhill, C. C. IVIcFee with representatives in Tynwald: Mr G. J, Bryan, C.M.G.. C.V.O., O.B.E., (hi considers that the interests of the M.C., Governfrient Secretary and Manx people will be best served by to the Council. In the Keys: The the immediate submission of a request Speaker (Mr H. C. Kerruish, 0.B.E.), to the Committee of the United Nations charged with protecting the interests Messrs. R. J. G. Anderson, H. D. C. of colonial and subject peoples for MacLeod, E. N, Crowe, R. E. S. Ker- an urgent investigation into the inten- ruish, P. Radcliffe, Miss J. C. C. Thorn- tion of the United Kingdom administra- ton-Duesbery, Messrs. P. A. Spittal], tion to extinguish the rights of self- government vested in Tynwald. the W. E. Quayle, J. H. Creer, T. C. oldest continuous democratic assembly Faragher, A. H. Simcoeks, G. T. Crellin, in the world. C. L. P. Vereker, J. E. Callister, J. A. In rising to move the resolution standing Moore, T. A. Corkish, E. C. Irving, C. E. in my name, I must say that whilst I Burke, G. V. H. Kneale, G. A. Devereau, am fully aware of its gravity, I am also R. MacDonald, A. S. Kelly. Sir Henry fully aware of its necessity. I would ask Sugden, K.B.E., C.B., D S,O.. with Mr the members of this ancient Court to T. E. Kermeen, Secretary to the House bear in mind throughout the debate that and . according to Halsbury's Statutes of Eng- land, volume 24, 2nd edition, referring to the Interpretation Act of 1899, it APPLICATION OF clearly states that the is not UNITED KINGDOM LEGISLATION a part of the United Kingdom. It also BY ORDER IN COUNCIL goes on to state that the Isle of Man is not a colony. I would also refer mem- The Governor: Hon. members, if the bers to the recent letter from the United resolution which forms our agenda sur- Kingdom Postmaster-General which His vives the various amendments which Excellency was good enough to circulate are likely to be proposed. I shall put the to members, in which the Postmaster- question in two parts under Standing General admits that the Isle of Man, Order 63, First of all (a) and then (b). and I quote, "is a separate national The hon. member for Peel. entity with its own distinctive culture." Mr MacDonald: Your Excellency, I Members should also bear in mind (and beg to move:— this is very important) that the United

Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council. 1826 TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967

Kingdom as a signatory to the United sentatives have made it very clear, and Nations Charter, and as one of the fore- remembering that this nation, unlike most defenders, so they say, of self- , is not represented at determination for human rights em- all in the of Westminster bodied in that charter, agreed to Article which passed this legislation. I would 73 which is particularly relevant to the consider it arrogant for them to pre- issue before U.S today, and I would like sume that they had such rights and it, to quote that Article. "Members of the would, if enforced, in my opinion con- United Nations which have or assume stitute an act of aggression. I say that responsibilities for the administration of no legislation without representation is territories whose people have not yet just as fundamental for freedom as no attained the full measure of self-govern- taxation without representation. Hon. ment recognise the principle that the members will remember that the people interests of the inhabitants of those ter- of the United States of America, British ritories are paramount above all, and like ourselves, once rebelled against to this end to ensure with due respect this very issue. They said — we will not to the culture of the peoples concerned be taxed when we have no say in the their political, economic, social and legislation introducing these taxes. We educational advancement, their just Manx, I hope, today, stand firm and say treatment and their protection against — if we have no voice in the legisla- abuses. To develop self-government, to tion at Westminster then we ought to take account of the political aspirations reject their right to enforce this legisla- of the people concerned, and to assist tion upon us. Your Excellency, the prin- them"— and note, to assist them —" in ciples .1 have just outlined would be the progressive development of free quite constant even if the concerned political institutions according to the referred to Manx kippers instead of circumstances of each territory and its radio ships and commercial radio, it people, and their varying stages of would not make one difference. Hon. development." I would, hon, members, members, as I said, in the Council — oh, like to stress that the interests of the I may go back a bit —it was very in- people of the territories which are not teresting to note a second issue here— fully self-governing, are paramount. As that if on the other hand we are not members know, the , by self-governing, which no doubt the an overwhelming majority of 20 votes tc learned Attorney-General, whose ap- three, rejected the Marine, etc., Broad- rointment is dependent upon White- casting Offences Bill as being . . and hall, will say, then the United Kingdom I quote from the petition susbsequently Government are about to commit a submitted by Tynwald to Her Majesty, breach cf the United Nations Charter Lord of Mann "not in the best interests .iince the elected representatives of this of her 1VIanx people." Now let us look Tsland's people have decided that the at the result of the United Kingdom Marine, etc., Broadcasting Offences Act Government's rejection of this petition, 's not in the best interests of their and we must remember that Her people, and I defy anyone to tell . me Majesty was given advice in Council who else is competent to make this de- from members of that government. cision but the hon. members of the Firstly, if we are self-governing, and I House of Keys. It is a very interesting personally do not consider it is neces- that when the Legislative Council sary for a small country to handle its handled this Bill, out of the elected or own external affairs, then the United indirectly elected representatives in the Kingdom have no right whatsoever to Council, three out of four voted against. force on our people criminal legislation Your Excellency, as I have said, the they do not want, as their elected repre- principles that I have just gone through,

Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council. TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1%7 1827 the first and second principle— it does who voted against this Bill, why they not matter whether it is kippers or cab- did throw it out, why they threw. the bage patches or anything else we are gauntlet into the arena, where, unfor- diseUgsing, what this Bill is about, the tunately, it has since been picked up by principle remains. As I just said, in the the Postmaster-General. I only hope Council in the third reading of this very they stand firm today and do not leave_ obnoxious Bill, three out of the four the arena with him holding their gaunt- elected members present voted against let! It might have been their baby — the Bill, so in Tynwald's two chambers, for evermare. your Excellency, perhaps that is the House of Keys and the Coun- the learned Attorney, bearing in mind cil, 23 votes were cast against this Bill, the Isle of Man is not a colony and not and this was all either directly or in- a part of the United Kingdom, will, be directly representatives of the people. good enough to inform us how, despite Whilst only four representative mem- the fact that the British Nationalities bers voted for it, two of us had to be- Act of 059 clearly states that a citizen cause we were introdue'ng the Bill. of this Island is not a citizen o: the (Laughter.) Of the remaining six who United Kingdom and the Colonies but voted for it, they were either Crown of the Islands, could, even if this. Act officials— in other words, their appoint- was extended to us, be committing.an ment depended, on the whims of White- offence, since the Parliament of West- hall — or they had been nominated by a minster did not in their Act, include previous Lieutenant-Governor, they them as potential gaolbirds, but only - were in no way representative of the their own domestic citizens. Hon. mem- Manx people. Two of the Labour mem- bers, our constitution is old and wise bers, when this Bill was debated in the like our learned Council and in the Keys, were absent, I think one was in London getting a Mr McFee: He's not old. new collar fitted. (Laughter.) The Mr MacDonald: Who has said that it learned Attorney, who, I believe, will be is continually evolving. It has changed, following me immediately in this de- it is changing and is capable of further bate— change, and despite any legal argu- ments put forward on international. law Mr Kelly: No collusion, is there ? and international agreements which the Mr MacDonald: No, so they say. He Postmaster-General, when it suits him, stated when the Bill was, before the breaks to allow the E.E.C. to broadcast Council, I would like to (Mott this, and on 232 metres to Europe despite the fact it is very interesting. He said —I quote that we have been told when it con- from the of this House —" It is cerns that this channel is time we. got rid of it. and got it down limited to the territorial area of the to another place to let the members country to which it is allocated by in there deal with it. Let us give them the ternational agreement, he has also per- matter and take it out of our hands, as mitted a British Forces station to I say it is pre-eminently a matter for operate in Benghazi outside the terms of them." In other words, the learned the international agreements made at Attorney had said— this is nothing both Copenhagen and Montreux. He really to do with the Upper House, this has quite permited this, happily per- is to do with the people's representa- mitted it, because it suits his. purpose. tives, let them decide it. They did, they Despite all the arguments that will .be chucked it out. They gave it the full brought up, legal, I would ask this treatment it deserved by 20 votes to Court, and especially the elected repre- three. Now undoubtedly. we may hear sentatives, to stand quite firm and reject it again today, why the 20 Keys men as incompatible with the freedom of

Application of United Kingdom egislation by Order in Council. 1828 TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967 our people, an Order in Council intro- Mg Order 75 which provides that every ducing an Act which I say does not con- amendment shall be relevant to the cern them as Island citizens and is not, question on which the amendment is as the Keys have quite clearly said, in proposed. their interests. Your Excellency, I am aware that my hon. and gallant col- The Governor: To quote the great league from Ramsey, Sir Henry Sugden, Benjamin Jowett, a former master of a is to move an amendment to the college founded by one of my predeces- effect that we should first ,appeal sors, "many things in a controversy to the Commonwealth Secretariat. might seem relevant if we knew to what I believe it will be the Common- they were intended to refer." (Laugh- wealth Secretatriat. To get our ter.) In this case I think we do know Commonwealth Prime Ministers to con- and I rule that it is relevant. sider our case, our dispute, with our The Speaker: Thank you, Your Excel- United Kingdom cousins, and hon. mem- lency. bers, in case lesser breeds without the law should think that we Manx with The Governor: Will you get on with the oldest parliament in the world are your speech ? unreasonable men. I am quite prepared Mr Nicholls: We haven't seen it vet, to accept this amendment on the clear Sir. understanding that unless satisfactory results are obtained which are in the Mr IVIcFee: Your Excellency, now that interests of the Manx people, and other my amendment hag been circulated, men are reasonable in the very near during his speech to support his resolu- future, I intend to re-introduce Part (b) tion, Mr MacDonald, the hon. member of my resolution as it stands, for as a for Peel quoted, and has based his argu- man all free men everywhere acIrdire, ment upon the extension by Order in once said—I was not going to use this Council of the Marine, etc., Broadcasting quotation, but I received a letter and I Offences Act to the Isle of Man, which think I should —" That if a nation can- the Keys refused to pass, and therefore not stand up for its own rights and I move, sir, these amendments which freedom it deserves to be stamped out." have now been circulated in my name. Mr. Churchill. Not , Mr. Your Excellency, there is no doubt that Churchill. And hon. members of Tyn- Mr MacDonald is sincere in his attitude, wald, generations of ManxTrien still un- particularly in his desire to preserve the born, will despise us for failing them right of self-government for this Island. after 1,037 years of self-government and and so far I go along with him, but in home rule. Your Excellency, I beg to analysing his resolution I believe, sir, move. its contents could destroy rather than achieve the objective in the hon. mem- Mr Simcocks: I second, and reserve ber's mind and could rather alienate my remarks. than preserve the status quo. We take The Governor: Mr MeFee. first of all the preamble, for instance. In my opinion this is completely un- Mr McFee: Your Excellency, I beg to necessary — Tynwald, conscious of its move an amendment, sir, to this resolu- ancient rights and privileges, represent- tion which I have asked to be circula- ing as it does the liberty of the Manx ted. people and reaffirming—why need to The Speaker: Your Excellency, on a re-affirm something that is not in ques- quick appraisal of the amendment tion, sir ? (Hear, hear.) The loyalty of tabled in the name of the hon. member the Manx people has never been in of the Council, Mr McFee, I would ask question. Why should he, in a resolution your guidance, sir, in relation to Stand- of this kind, seek to re-affirm something

Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in ,Council. TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967 1829 that is never in question ? And that, in Council to which the hon. member who my opinion, could be wiped out at once. supported the resolution can refer to is What has really occurred, sir, is this. this one. Now what is this one ? Is this The ancient rights of Mann have been one of some domestic character, some- pitted against the guardians of the thing dealing primarily with the in- ancient rights of the British Parliament, terests of this Island ? This is an inter- and up to the present there is no bend- national matter, and is of international ing on either side. Now; Your Excel- character and may I say this, Your lency, I know how frustrating this Excellency, to a responsible govern- Could be. The tendency of the Home ment— and I hope we are a responsible Office, and the Imperial Government at government — this is consequential times is to treat us as a county council upon the 1949 Act which gave the instead of a separate economy, seeking, Imperial Government the authority to without ministerial help, to finance our act on our behalf at international level, own affairs, and requiring the use of and mind you, this government invited modern media to achieve this. But the 1949 Act to be extended to the Isle unfortunately the effect of this reso- of Man by Order in Council. Now when lution is that the political enemies they have acted on our behalf at inter- of the government in jEngland, inside national level, and after tremendous and outside the country, are joining negotiations and probably great prob- in, not because of the so-called prin- lems and difficulty, they have achieved ciple, but to upset and to add to the a convention agreement at international difficulties of the present government in level —what is this government saying? power, not with sympathy towards this Out with it, we will not ratify it. In Island, but with the object of destroying other words, you are prepared to rat, the present government in . but not prepared to ratify, that which The Speaker: Nothing of the sort. you have empowered the Imperial Government under the 1949 Act to carry Mr McFee: This is quite evident in out on your behalf. Is that responsible the national press. The second point, government ? I say no. Your Excellency, I want to refer to is Mr Kelly: Times are changing too, (a) of clause (a) "Rejects as incom- you know. patible with the freedom of a self- governing democracy the enforcement Mr McFee: Yes, I have noticed that. by Orders in Council of the doniestic Now when criticisms, Your Excellency, policies of 1-ler Majesty's Government I have noticed this, that when criticisms in the United Kingdom." in my opinion, and questions are raised on the floor of Your Excellency, this is casting a slur the House of 'Common, the position of on the Imperial Government, inferring the Isle of Man, the best of two worlds to the non-informed that a grave in- position, is sometimes challenged. Now justice has been or is being done by who comes to our rescue when these them to a small dependency, by impos- criticisms are levelled at us ? The very ing domestic policy upon them against ministers of government whose justice their will, or the will of the inhabitants. in this matter is now being challenged. I challenge the mover of this resolution The present status of the Isle of Man to state one instance when the Imper:al has been preserved against its enemies Government has imposed one Order in and .its critics in the House of Commons Council upon the Isle of Man regarding from time to time by the Imperial domestic policy. Mention them. Government when matters that could destroy self-government in the Island Mr Simcocks: This one. has been raised upon the floor of the Mr McFee: This one, Can we take it a House or in debate. I would ask hon. step further then ? The only Order in members to consider that. Also, Your

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Excellency, the Privy Council are aware Mr MacDonald: He's in the Scilly that the Isle of Man have a habit of ask- Isles ing for the removal of certain things Mr McFee: Mr Simcocks. Your Excel- today and asking • for their return in lency, is quoted as sarcastically refer- abbut two years' time. ring to the Prime of England The Speaker: Such as ? as Big Brother Harold. Well, whether he MT McFee: Such as— I refer, Your likes to call him Big Brother Harold or Excellency, to the 1957 Order in Coun- not, he can call him what he likes, we cil .which at the request of the Isle of know his political extremities and I Man extended the Imperial 1954 Tele- would say this—that he has got to recog- vision Abt to the Island, Now in 1961 — nise that Big Brother Harold, or should that is not very long ago. sir — Tynwald I say more dignified, the Prime Minister asked for its revocation, and in 1963 of England Tynwald rescinded that resolution, Mr MacLeod: Great Britain. asked that this should stand to safe- Mr McFee: Great Bri:ain if you guard the viewers' position, and to gain wish it, the Imperial Government, he is the I.T.A. booster station in the Island. still the political head of the Imperial This is the kind of thing, this is the Government, and as such this Island history; and a wise Privy Council in has got to recognise that. considering demands from the Isle of Man would say— well, those boys over Mr Irving: No coronation is imminent, there, they have got a habit of asking for is it ? certain revocations, in two years' time Mr Mcre-e; Not at the moment, but they will be asking us to do the opposite you never know what will happen ! thing, and probably the Privy Council, (Laughter.) We may have royalty on taking that into account, has just put the head of the hon. member who stood the brakes on. with honour on Tynwald Hill to have The Speaker: How many revocations his photograph taken of recent clays ! have been conceded ? Your Excellency, I am satisfied, sir, and Mr McFee: One is sufficient. You are I want the Court to be very serious basing thip whole argument on one about this, there are two approaches to Order in Council, sir. One is sufficient this very serious question. One is its when you are applying. My colleagues in complete rejection which I believe that the Labour Party— the Labour Party certain hon. members may have in has been mentioned — would not agree, mind. I feel that complete rejection Your Excellency, to washing domestic would lead or would mean stalemate. linen in the world cauldron or in the The grin of the Cheshire cat would still gutter of the world. remain. We want to remove even the grin of this thing, and positive action is Mr Sinicocks.. It is domestic on thls necessary to restore good working rela- . occasion then. (Laughter.) tions and confidence between the Mr MCFee: I refer now, not to the governments, and therefore that is the Order in Council, sir, I refer to the reason for the amendment circulated, domestic dispute that exists between sir. To refer to the amendments we say two governments. (Interruption.) But delete the words "conscious of its as .such —you have had your say, you ancient rights and privileges" because will have a reply, so take your time— in that sense our loyalty is not ques- we feel, sir, that in the best interests of tioned, never has been questioned, and the Island we should consider a new needs no re-affirming. (b) Is of the approach with persistence, even if it opinion that in the matter of the means, sir, a personal appeal to Mr Wil- Marine, etc., Broadcasting Offences son at 10, Downing Street. (Laughter.) created by the application of the United

Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council. TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967 1831

Kingdom legislation by Order in Coun- introduce and what we have introduced cil, which is the subject before this hon. in the way of Manx Radio, whether that Court, that His Excellency the has interfered with the programme that Lieutenant-Governor, in order to clear was being arranged by the B.B.C. to the way for a Manx National Broadcast- establish in the Isle of Man one of the ing Station owned, controlled and regional stations. I hope that that will operated by the Manx Government continue and I think that we should should— the reason for that—we are seek to achieve this sir as quickly as of the opinion, sir, that it has a much possible. And may I just in conclusion, better chance of succeeding, any ap- sir, say that when these negotiations proaches or new approaches to Her continue, that Tynwald should not be Majesty's Government, if it is to be divided into a lot of little disjointed government owned and controlled committees. We have got about five or rather than given to a private company six committees at the present time, little to operate commercial radio in the Is- committees who fly off to London with land, or ultimately, outside the Island one aspect or other excuse to meet their if negotiations should succeed. There- counterparts there. Let us have the fore we suggest that it should be taken whole thing considered by some sort of by the government and made a govern- composite committee so that after very, ment-operated scheme. very careful consideration all the prob- Mr Kelly: Where are you going to get lems that confront the Island and its the talent from ? relations and its constitution may be considered very carefully before any MT McFee: Well, we have seen some attempt is made to meet the negotiating talent from time to time. We must re- body across the water. As such, sir, I introduce the Marine Broadcasting ask the Court to accent the amendment Offences Bill into the branches, because and reject the resolution. I believe that we have now international obligations in this respeot. We should The Governor: The hon. and gallant seek the continuance of consultations member for Ramsey. with the United Kingdom government Sir Henry Sugden: Your Excellency, with a view to Manx Radio obtaining may I first make it quite clear, or have greater power — we would agree with it made clear by you, sir, why I am on that — and would certainly say that my feet. Now I do that, sir, because negotiations should continue, not stale- naturally 1 want to propose the amend- mate, sir. (c) Whilst the branches are ment standing in my name. But I also taking the opportunity of reconsidering have a certain amount to say about the legislation, respectfully ask Her Majesty amendment which has been proposed by the Queen to be graciously pleased to the previous speaker, and I would also defer making an Order in Council ex- like to say a certain amount about the tending the United Kingdom Act to the motion itself. May I therefore, sir, speak Isle of Man. This I believe, that if this purely and simply to my amendment, was achieved it would create a proper and perhaps be afforded a later oppor- and a better atmosphere for negotiation tunity purposes, and (d) to ascertain whether early consideration may be given to in- Members: No: no. clude the Isle of Man in the B.B.C.'s. The Governor: You will have to get 16 regional stations programme. I was of votes in the Keys and seven in the the impression and understood that the Council to speak twice. (Laughter.) Isle of Man was on the priority list for the regional developinent. I do not know Sir Henry Sugden: Well I will put it what the position is now. Whether by all in one. I thought I had better be on the alternatives that we have tried to safe ground. First of all, I think we have

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really. got two rather separate issues For goodness sake let us stick to it which we are considering, One, I think, Now, sir, there has been a good deal and here • I would like advice from the of suggestion about bargaining with the learned AUorney-General, is very much, British Government. Can anybody in is it not, out of our hands. Here I am this hon. Court really give instances of referring to Radio Caroline. We must where the weaker partner to a bargain really believe that no matter what we has struck a good bargain with the do today, whoever we go to, it will be more powerful side. I, personally, can- linked—whatever tempest we may make not think of one. David did not bargain wiil be linked with Radio Caroline. with Goliath, he just got on with the However, the two aspects I think that job. Now. sir, if I may come to my arise on Radio Caroline are these. First amendment. We have got, I think, to of all, the purely domestic side o: it, be in a position of as great a strength and that is— is the Attorney-General as we can to bargain. We can only going to prosecute shall I say a grocer bargain by attacking and to keep on in Ramsey for supplying the crew of doing so and not just to sit down and Radio Caroline with groceries, or a say "We will have another thought, we greengrocer with fresh vegetables ? will all come again." Having been Mr MacDonald: It has not arisen yet. turned down flat by the Postmaster- General, in his re'cent.letter for increased Sir Henry Sugden: Well, it may not strength, we will get. if we do that, I have arisen, but it is something which venture to suggest, nothing. Now I, sir, feel we in this Island must bear very qui:e frankly, was very unhappy at much in mind, and I would almost take referring this matter to the United out my shotgun to protect that grocer or Nations—I wondered who would spon- :hat greengrocer. But that to my mind sor it. Would it be Sierra Leone ? My is a very important point, Well now hon. colleague may still have some the other one is this. I do not know contacts there. What support would we where Radio Caroline gets its income get ? We were told in the very able from. From advertisements—yes, But speech of the hon. member for Peel, in in what country of origin. If they are another place, that off-shore broadcast- mainly in the United Kingdom then pre- ing stations interfered with the normal sumably on — is it — the 17th of this local network in Czechoslovakia and. I month that source of income will be cut think, Hungary. So, we would probably oft. Can Radio Caroline survive? That to get no support from the eastern bloc. my mind is another consideration, but I We might get, perhaps, support from the am more concerned with what. is ger- Arab nations as they are ready to do rnaine to this resolution and that is the anything to upset the United Kingdom domestic side of it. Can the United 'but it is not the sort of support, quite Kingdom Government force us to prose- frankly. I would care to seek, nor do cute the people I have mentioned for I believe it is the sort of support really carrying out what to them, I would sug- this hon. Court would wish to enlist. gest, would be normal, legitimate trad- So I tabled my amendment and I think ing? Now then. we come to Mr McFee's it would be as well. perhaps, if I just amendment. I will if I may, sir. repeat mention some aspects of the work which what I said in another place. Or at the Commonwealth Secretariat carries least the relevant extract. We have got out. Its prime part is, of course, to act Radio Caroline. it, is working. For good- as the Secretariat to the periodical Com- ness sake, let us keep Radio Caroline monwealth Prime Ministers Conferences because there we have got something but it is a body that is functioning the which is what we want. We have got it whole time and, I believe, at the present right here, as it were, in our hands. moment it has a delegation overseas in

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Nigeria helping to try and sort things of constitutional relationships and has out there. I think the two functions already recommended in an interim re- which really can be of use to us in this port that, instead of the Home Office, argument which we have — I will just we should seek to have our channel of quote two very brief extracts. "In ad- communications with Westminster through the Commonwealth Office. It is dition. the Secretary-General will, on the following on that proposal and, further- request of a member government, cir- more it does not of necessity close the cdate papers submitting by that gov- door. :We have already been turned ernment on international questions of down by the Privy Council so again, common concern, provided that, if these I think, it is no use thinking we can get touch upon the internal affairs of mem- away with any further bargaining. We ber countries, or dispuies between two just will not. So let us pp ahead. Attack, or more member countries, they will not but attack within the Commonwealth. be circulated without the prior concur- I beg to move the amendment circulated rence of the country or countries con- in my name. cerned." We can, therefore, go to the Commonwealth Secretariat and they will The Governor: The learned Attorney- deal with this matter for us in confi- General. dence, or, in any other way, I am cer- tain, that we may wish. Also clause 13 The Attorney-General: Your Excel- reads — "the position of the remaining lency, I am going to try and present a dependent territor:es within the few facts to this Court. What I believe Commonwealth is the one matter which to be and what I am satisfied are in- continues to command lively interest deed correct facts. Now, if I could, I among member countries. The Secre- do not think the hon. member for Peel tariat can play a rale in this field and repeated this today but he was credited it might circulate to member govern- in an issue of last week's Liverpool ments balanced paners on the consti- 'Daily Post" as having said that the tutional difficulties of the remaining issue was whether or not the British territories or on their progress towards Government has any right to force their independence on the understanding that laws upon us. Well, if that is the issue. the responsible member government gentlemen. I can give you the answer. would always be closely consulted in the it is, in fact, yes. They have full con- preparation of the papers." I feel, ::titutional right to do so. They do not therefore, that this is a body which can do ii and this is possibly the first in- well deal with this matter. It keeps, stance that you will find in the last I suggest, in accordance with the pre- hundred years where the Imperial Gov- amble, all this affair under . ernment is saying to us: "Look, this is It keeps it within the Commonwealth. an international matter. We are respon- Possibly. as suggested by the hon. mem- sible for your international relationships ber for Peel, if this line of approach and if you are not going to help us out fails, he may well bring this matter up by do:ng it yourselves, then we must, again, so it does not close the door to with great reluctance, in this particular him. Well, sir, that is what I have to instance, do it for you." Now, that is say in proposing this amendment and I what is happening. The principle that would just repeat that here is what I the Imperia: Parliament can legislate suggest is the highest body available to for us was, as far as I am aware, first us within the Commonwealth. It is. stated by Lord Coke in the reign of furthermore, I would suggest, just fol- Queen Elizabeth the First. It was re- lowing on the suggestion made by our stated in the Privy Council in a case of committee sitting on the development Sodor and Man, one of Your Lordship's

Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council. 1834 TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967

predecessors, against Derby in the year the hon. member of the Council pointed • 1715. It was re-stated by Attorney- out. It is, gentlemen, no good mule- General Ring to the McDonnell Com- ishly repeating that pirate radio is a mission in 1912. Mr Ring stated he had domestic issue in the Isle of Man. As never heard it seriously questioned any- the hon. and gallant member for Ram- where or in any court and a Mr Wilkins sey has said, it has, of course, as every- a member of the McDonnell Commission, thing must have, as the Common Market agreed with him entirely. In. 1917 the is going to have, a domestic application House of Keys said they had never in the Isle of Man, very much so, But questioned it and in 1926—well I will things that may be domestic to the Isle not go on—but in .1959 before the Mc- of Man can also be, as indeed is this Dermott Commission, they published, very question, a red ho i international before they look any evidence, this book, one. It is no good going on saying it is domestic = it's domestic, it's making which contained the Home Office mem- criminals of Manxmen against our will. orandum, which set out all these other It cannot be helped. The United King- authorities and when the evidence was dom is responsible for our external re- given, after this was published, the lations—radio is as external as anything matter was never even referred to. I you can think of, and if we are not pre- might say that Attorney-General Ram- pared to co-operate, then the United say Bignell Moore referred in his very Kingdom, with great reluctance, has no authoritative work on the Isle of Man option but to do what it intends to do and International Law to the paramount and nobody, no court in the world, would power of the British Parliament to legis- deny it the right to do it. Now, this late for all parts of the British Empire. first paragraph "A" refers to the enforce- That is in the days when they had— ment, by Order in Council, of the domestic policies of Her Majesty's Gov- The Speaker: When they had an ernment. Now what domestic policies Empire. have they forced upon us? Have they forced us to abolish the death penalty? The Attorney-General. Precisely. That Have they forced us to abolish the birch? was when they had an Empire. Now These are two matters, Your Excellency, that did not include just us. I men- which are very dear to the heart of tioned all that to show you that the the British Goveinment. It is a very British Government are not arrogating important matter :o them. They are to themselves a power which they have determined to keen the death penalty no right to have. They have that con- abolished. They are determined never stitutional power. Now let us examine, to bring the birch back. Absolutely hon. members, Your Excellency, let us determined, but they are saying :o us: examine the resolution. Paragraph "A" "This is a matter for yourselves. If you is more or less harmless but there are want to remain savages and heathens one or two odd things about it. It has and live back in the dark ages. well no contemporary relationship to facts. good luck to you!" Let us no forget It is a complete non sequitar. It ap- that we birch—not often enough, I am pears to be founded on a false premise afraid at times — citizens of Great of domestic politics. It expresses a very Britain, who come here and misbehave goad principle, to which I subscribe themselves on their holidays, but they fully and always will subscribe as fully have shown what could only be described as any member a this Court, but it is as extreme tolerance on these important one that does not require expression. matters. It is the poicy of the United We know it, just as we know that there Kingdom Government that in the United is no need to reaffirm our loyalty, as Kingdom there should be no commercial

Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council, TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967 1835 radio, but we have the only commercial to investigate the intention — I repeat radio in the British Isle, and you say that, Your Excellency and hon. mem- they are forcing their domestic policies bers, the intention of the United King- upon us. Is it seriously suggested that dom AdMinistration to extinguish the the U.K. Government are going to force rights of self-government vested in us to terminate our pregnancies? Are Tynwald. That is a good one. That is a ihey going to permit consenting adults really good one. Let's leave out the —are they going to make us permit Colonial and subject peoples for the consenting adults to perform in private? time being. Of course not. These are domestic mat- ters. Come to the General Development Deemster Kneale: No, no. Bill which caused us such a lot of The Attorney-General: For the time trouble. The Home Office said, or the being. For the time being. Where, hon. Britlsh Government said, it infringed the members, is there the slightest proof of basic principles to which all good legis- this alleged intention ? Where is there lation should conform in that it created any bit of corroboratory evidence ? a monopoly. I do not agree that they There is absolutely none at all. Has the were right. I do not see that there is United Kingdom Government sugges- anything against monopolies if they are ted that we cannot close roads for races? beneficial monopolies, but the United Have they suggested that we can't fix Kigdoin Government is dead set against our own taxes ? Have they suggested monopolies. that we cannot run a casino or a lottery? Mr Kelly: They have the National Mr Kneale: You are right there I Coal Board. The Attorney-General; They haven't The Attorney-General: You will have suggested it, very decently. I refer to the your say, Mr Kelly. And what hap- lottery, not the casino. Have they sug- pened? We went up, we saw them, we gested that we have got to have betting argued with them and then they said shops ? That we must have votes for "Look here, chaps, why not do it this servicemen ? That our local government way. It doesn't, look so bad if you do it law must correspond with theirs ? That that way." They showed us how to do it, we cannot give loans to visiting indus- and you say they try to force their tries? Of courf.e they have not, There is domestic policies upon 11S. Are they not a seintella of proof that there is — going to try and make us conform to and we all know it to be a lie anyway, their permanent summer-time ? No, they that it is their intention to do this. The are not, they have said so. It is up to us whole history of our last 200 years of to do what we like. Now then the only zelationshi.ps with the Imperial Govern- real objection to paragraph "A' as I ment contradicts it. Quite recently it see it is its false implication that the was suggested to the Imperial Govern- domestic policies of the United Kingdom ment who were passing a new Weights are being currently forced upon us. It and Measures, Act, Bill as it was then contains a principle to which all of us — a most complicated piece of verbal subscribe, but it contains a false and machinery — it was suggested that they libellous inference against Her Majesty's 'might include us in it, and they said Government — that is what is the "No — this is a domestic matter for you; matter with paragraph "A", nothing you deal with it by your own legisla- else. It needn't be said. Now, paragraph tion." In 1957 they passed an Act and "B" suggests we submit a request to the gave the to an Act of our United Nations Committee charged own to enable us to fix our own with protecting the interests of Colonial Customs. The first time for 200 years and subject peoples urgently for them and you say it is their intention to

Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council. 1836 TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967

extinguish our rights of self-govern- Ivory Coast, Madagascar, Mali, Poland, ment. We can fix our own Customs— Sierra Leone, Syria, Tunisia, the Soviet The Speaker: On what conditions ? Union, Tanzania, the U.S.A., Uruguay, Venezuela and Yugoslavia, and the The Attorney-General: We can at any United Kingdom? Why do you want to time opt out, if we care to do so. At any do that ? Now then, in fact, if we do time — you would go bankrupt prohablY succeed, which is, I should say, impro- if you did, but that is not their fault, and they even gave us Dower to repeal Acts bable, let us see who, out of that com- of the Imperial Parliament by Acts of mittee, are the sub-committee for deal- Tynwald if they related to Customs ing with petitions. They are Poland, Duties, and you say that they intend to Ethiopia, Venezuela, Madagascar, India, extinguish our rights of self-government. Tunisia and, thank God, Australia, I The hon. Mr Speaker has said on what have referred to the fac. that we are terms do we fix our own Customs. Now not a colonial people. Every people in that is just the kind of argument you the world is a subject People. I, person- are going to have— ally, am proud to be a citizen of the United Kingdom, Islands and Colonies, The Speaker: Because there are res- which is my correct title. I am proud to traints. be it. I am also a British subject, a sub- ject of Her Majesty the Queen, and I The Attorney-General: Let me speak shall always remain so — at least I hope now. If we care, if we wish to alter our I shall. Now are we a subject people In Customs duties widely from those of the the sense used in the title of this de- United Kingdom, then the whole posi- colonisation committee ? Of course we tion with regard to the Common Purse are not. Of course we are not. Now do and everything else has to be re- you want our relatonships with the examined and that is .a very fair and United Kingdom to be poked into and proper arrangoinent, because why did probed by these nations. This is the the British Crown buy back the Sove- committee, gentlemen, to which Gibral- Ireignty of the Isle of Man 200 years tar has appealed for the last three years 'ago ? Why was the Isle of Man re- — utterly in vain, for protection against vested ? Because of smuggling. Because Spain. Utterly in vain. Because this is of smuggling and I am only sorry that an anti-United Kingdom committee and X was not there to reap the benefit of every one of you knows it. It can't in .it, like most of you. I am afraid my any event do anything but make rude grandfather came to the Isle of Man noises and insult Her Majesty and Her too late or I would be living in the Government, even if they do receive us. lap of luxury. (Laughter.) The whole Now four and a half months ago Tyn- theory, Your Excellency, on which the wald appointed a committee to examine intended submission to the United the relationship letween us and the Nations Committee is based is utterly United Kingdom and to make recom- false. Now let us turn to this committee. mendations as to the steps, if any, that As I am asked to agree, and of course, could usefully be taken to improve one more of these things that doesn't them. This is a fine way to improve need to be stated, we are not a colony, them, gentlemen, isn't it ? A very fine we are not a colonial people. This is a way to improve them. To try and im- de-colonisation committee — why go to prove them with what is a pack of false it ? Why, gentlemen, do you want to allegations against the United Kingdom refer a family dispute with the United and setting her up as an Aunt Sally for Kingdom to these countries — Afghanis- people only too anxiowz, to throw stones tan. Australia, Bulgaria, Chile, Ethiopia, at her — trying to. Now what our com.- Finland, India, Iran, Iraq, Italy, the mittee should do is fulfil its terms of

Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council. TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967 1837 reference — examine the position and of smuggling and if Manxmen remain talk across the table with the Home wedded to it they may well find that Office and go on doing it. If not, why with the disappearance of one of the form a committee ? They have been conditions for their autonomy — their offered this opportunity. They were autonolny itself is invaded." offered the opportunity of talks with the Home Office in May. So far that offer Mr Kelly: The "Daily Mail" said just has not been accepted. I do not know the apposite. why it has not been accepted. I think it has been— Mr MacDonald: The old Whitehall lie. The Speaker: What sort of talks ? The Attorney-General: Hon. members, you know we have the best of both The Attorney-General: I do not think worlds, thank goodness. Even the United it has been accepted because of a native Kingdorn'6 Government has not a suspicion that the other fellow is going patience which is completely in- to be too smart for them. That is my exhaustible. Don't try it too high. opinion. We should not wash our dirty linen, if this is dirty linen, in public. Mr Irving: Threatening annexation Neighbours always treat it as a joke. again ? Some people think that — well, we will The Attorney-General: And if you leave that one. Now, I personally, am want to vote for something, hon. mem- proud of the land of my birth and I do bers, vote for paragraph ''A", or for the not want it to be put into the hands and hon. and gallant member's amendment. I its affairs bandied about by the nations ,-han't vote for it. Utterly reject para- I have just mentIoned. We want to see graph "B" wh'.ch is unworthy of us and ctable and sensible government in the if I were you, for my part, I would vote Isle of Man — that is what we want so against the whole thing. that industrialists coming here know that we have a sound government — not The Governor: The hon. member for given to rash actions, that it can Trust, . that it can bring its br'cks and mortars hete, put :hem up and know that they Mr Simcocks: Your Excellency, it has are not going to be dealt with dis- been said that in choosing this particu- honourably or unfavourably. Mr Tyran, lar issue with which to confront the who we still hope will bring the oil CovernMent of the United Kingdom, refinery here, said that one of his three that the Isle of Man has taken the wrong main rea-ono for com'ng to the Isle of grounds for the argument. With this, Man was that it had a stable govern- :lir, I would not agree. I would say ment. though, sir, that although these grounds are not the wrong grounds they are diffi- Mr Kelly: So it has. cult grounds. Difficult. sir, because it is necessary to out a true, legal argument The Attorney-General: Has it ? Da to this Court and to the people of this you call this stability ? Island in order to establish what our Mr Kelly: Just one thing like this ? case is. I think, sir, too, that we should look to see what is the case which the The Attorney-General: Do you call United Kingdom with the help of the this stability ? I wonder whether Mr B.B.C. is putting forward to the people Tyran w'll be quite so happy about it today, I was quite surprised to find that now. Flnally, hon. members, let me suddenly the B.B.C. discovered that there quote from the second leader in last was a ship called "Caroline", sir. Until Thun:day's Landon "Times" — it says, a week or so ago I was quite certain "Pc-p pirai'y is but a sophisticated form they hadn't even heard of it but, sir,

Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council. 1438 TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967

the case which is being put forward is once the money has ceased, the radio this. That the British Government have ships will sail away. I know that there entered into an international agreement are brave words being said at the undertaken to remove frotfi round the moment. That certain operators are Under which the British Government has saying "Come what may — come the shores of the 13ritish Isles the off-shore 16.th August, we will still carry on, We :radio ships, which have admittedly tamed interference with the legitimate have secret means of making sure that broadcasting of other countries. Further- all will be well." Frankly, sir, that does more the case is that in order to honour not impress me. I have heard so ofteil that agreemnt the British Government the. confidefit l'efriarkS of gefiel'alS telling has enacted the Marne, etc., Broa&ast- their troops that they are on the verge ing Offences Act which is the cause of of victory, right un to the moment of the present disturbance. Now I agree, surrender. sr. I am certain that money sir, it is necessary for the British Gov- will talk and that when the effects of ernment to have passed that Act in the lack of money is felt an these radio order to honour the agreement but the ships they will go out of business. It is British Government then goes further, true, sir, that if the Isle of Man is not sir, it says "and furthermore in order involved in this legislation, that the that this international agreement on the departiar Of the ships might be delayed part of the British Government should for a day or two — perhaps for a week, be honoured" — an agreement entered but, sir, there is no doubt in my mind into amongst other people for the bene- whatever the mere fact that the British fit of the Isle of Men, on behalf of the Government has passed an Act making Isle of Man — "it is necessary that the advert:sing on these ships a criminal Isle of Man should conform with the offence, effectively carries otit the Inter- United Kingdom Government in passing national obligations of the nritish Gov- similar :egislation." Sir, it is at that point ernment, and that to include us in that that I part company with the case put Act seems to me to be a quite gratuitous forward for the United Kingdom Gov- wish on the nart of the British GOvern- ernment. You see, sir, I think we should ment to have uS confarM. It is because first look at the contents of the Marine, of that, Sir, that I say that the British etc., Broadcasting Offences Act, to see Government, in forcing this niece of what it contains. Curiously enough, sir, criminal legislation upon us, is acting that Act does not in itself make it an in an unconstitutional way. In a wAy offence to broadcast on the high seas quite contrary to all our coneeptiOns of without a licence. It will not make Radio what the relationship was between our Caroline illegal of herself. But what this Government and the British Govern- Act does do, sir, amongst other things, ment. At th:s point, sir. I think we is to make it a criminal offence for any- r&ght perhaps have a look at the con- one to advertise their products on that stitutional position between us and the station. Now, sir. I do not think that United Kingdom. That, sir, is clearly we would delude ourselves into thinking 5tated, as the learned Attorney has said, that the operators of off-shore radio in quoting, that is clearly stated in the ships do it because they like the sea, or memorandum addressed to the commis- because they are fond of the view. I pion headed by Lord McDermott — a do not think there is any doubt at all but memorandum from the Home Office in that this is an operation that is carried 1958 or 1959. The learned Attorney- on for money. I think too, sir, that there General quoted from some Darts. I is no doubt that once advertising be- would like to draw the attention of the comes a criminal offence — advertising Court and the public to the very clear which is the source of the money of sta'ements which lay down this. That these ships — that money will cease and whereas the British Government is res-

Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council. TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 3967 1839 ponsihle for our external affairs and who were wearing their Privy Council our defence, other parts of the activities hats, sir, nevertheless advised Her of government are within the ambit of Majesty, that it was in order that this Tynwald. There i of course this over- law should be passed in accordance with riding provision that the British Govern- the wishes of Tynwald. Clearly then, ment can eventually legislate for us but sir, it would appear that the criminal the Attorney did not mention to you — law, in the ordinary case, is domestic 1 do not know for what motive — he legislation. If it were not domestic legis- did not mention to you the proviso that lation, sir how is it that the British this power is in practice only exercised Government have been allowing us to af:er full consultation with the Isle of pass it ? How is it that we have been Men. allowed to have laws different from the United Kingdom if the criminal law is The Attorney-General: Haven't you not domestic ? Now I will concede to had full consultation ? the learned Attorney the possibility that criminal law can be elevated from the Mr Simcocks: I am concerned with realms of domesticity into the area of what the Attorney said, sir. Now, sir, in the international field. Let us take the o her words the British Government case where Britain might perhaps de- deals with the external affairs of de- clare war on a country, a declaration fence and we deal with affairs within which would necessarily involve the Isle the Island. Now let us see what consti- of Man. Obviously then, sir, it would be tu'es domestic affairs. Remember, sir, necessary for all concerned that the Isle that the Home Office have told us that of Man should pass criminal law to dcmestic affairs are our affairs. Let us ensure, for instance that there would be go back and see what it is that Tynwald no contact with the new enemy, but sir, has been dealing with over the past few this is quite a different position. I think years. Let us have a look at our criminal I have made it very clear that in this law. As the Attorney-General has told particular care it is not necessary to you, our criminal law is different in :roplicate the Isle of Man in the Marine certain vital respects from that of the etc., Broadcasting Offences At to make United Kingdom. P is quite true what it work. I am satisfied and I am sure he told you. in snite of the dogmatic other clear thinking people will be satis- opposition of the British Government to fied, the mere fact of making it a crimi- corporal punishment and capital punish- nal offence to advertise on these ships, ment — nevertheless this is the law of will effectively deal with that particular the I--oe of Man and no attempt by the problem. Now, sir, there is the question British Government has been made to of this application to the United Nations. oppose our right to have those laws It is suggested that this is a wrong when we make them and it is not just a thing to do; the hon. member of the lc-natter of an old situation, sir. The Council, Mr MeFee, suggests that we Summary Jurisdict'on Bill which first should commence further negotiations provided for the birching of youths — we should ask the Queen to delay who carnmit acts of violence — that her Order, I understand it has actually Act rer&ved the Royal Assent in 1961. been made, and a Sealed copy is here The Criminal Justice Act which con- in the Island at the moment, so how fe-red the eame !'ower on our Court of the Queen can delay something which General Gaol Delivery was, I think, 1963 she has already done, I don't know. But and in b',th cases this Court of Tynwald it does seem to me, sir, that the amend- passed Bills providing for criminal law ments suggested by the hon. me-mber Mr absolutely different from the law in Bri- McFee. have been drawn with the head tain, yet the Government in the United of the Manx Labour Party somewhat in Kingdom. those Ministers of the Crown the sand. Have they not heard what has

Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council. 1840 TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1987

been going on, Your Excellency ? Do compIa:ning. In fact, sir, the only help they not know that whilst the House we got from the Privy Council was that of Keys were actually dissolved waiting they, having had a complaint made for the election, that the Marine Broad- against an accused, elevated the accused casting Offences Bill came before the to the Bench, and not surprisingly, the Bench acquitted them, Well ir having Legislative Council, and the Upper had that experience, is it reasonable House were told by the learned Attor- that we should take the advice of the ney — "Gentlemen, if you do not pass Manx Labour Party to try further nego- this Bill the British Government will tiations with these dogmatic men who pass it to you?" Do they not know that will not move a traction of a millimetre? any representative body such as the Is it not reasonable that we hould...gb elsewhere and see if we cannot find House of Keys must realise it to be some organisation which will help us to their duty to accept this as a challenge get success with the British Govern- to the right of the Manx people to legis- ment? What we are looking for, sir, is late domestically for themselves ? Do an arbitrator to help us to get out of they not know that after the Bill had these difficulties. It is most certainly been discharged by the House, and not a break with Britain that we want, after a petition had been agreed by this what we need is help in resolving our Tynwald, that negotiations did take difficulties here today, and it is because place ? And I think we should recall, !Nye need a third narty to deal with sir, just exactly how those negotiations -these problems that we are looking — if I may call them that — were con- elsewhere. Where we go is a matter ducted. It will be recalled that a which is of less importance. Perhaps, petition was addressed to Her Majesty than the Attorney might make out. I asking her to take account of the fact would be prepared to accept what the that the House of Keys had rejected the hon. and gallant member for Ramsey local Bill, when the Queen was to con- suggests, though I am bound to say that sider whether or not to extend the it looks to me like a very, very small British Act to us. What we sa:d in effect, half of a loaf. I would hone that this sir, was — "Please do not extend this organisation of which he sneaks is not Act to us." The matter was dealt with under the eagle eye of 10 Downing by the Privy Council who quite cor- Street, but I have a horrid feeling that rectly referred the matter to a commit- it probably will be, and, sir, we must tee. Now, sir, this petition was in the remember that we should try to keep nature of a complaint by the Manx out of the direct line of communication people against the British Government. with the British Government so far as One would have thought, therefore, that possible while these negotiations are when the Privy Council came to deal going on— with this matter they would have ap- pointed to the committee elder states- Mr Canister: Go to Mr Heath ! men, men who were not directly con- cerned, people who would perahps deal Mr Simcocks: You see, sir, it has also with this matter on its merits. But what been suggested, sir, that we cannot go happened ? In the event, sir, the com- to the United Nations ourselves, but it mittee of the Privy Council who were must be the sovereign power — Britain to deal with this matter, this complaint — that must do it for us. But, sir, this against the British Government and particular committee mentioned in the certain of its Ministries, the people who resolution was appointed specially for were appointed to that committee were the purpose of dealing with just the the Ministers responsible for those sort of complaint that we have today, departments against which we were and it would seem to me that if a small

Application of United Kingdom egislation by Order in Council. TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 19(17 1841 people wished to co lain against a lism as between the United Kingdom and ;zovereign power upon whom they ,are its subject people is all fine and well's° dependent, and they have to complain . long as the paternalism is benevolent. I. against oppression through the oppres- have been seeing over past years, "and' E0r, that would appear to me to be too I have been telling this hon. Court Utterly Gilbertian to be worth consider- about it. I have been seeing this bene- ink. It is tiler:est the sarne, sir, as sug- volence disappear. 1 have seen the 'exit gesting that if a cathef i5 15eing iinneces- of paternalism as well, and I have seen• sari:y cruel to his son and tha gdn benevolent paternalism turning into an that this is conduct which the police dictatorship. and I feel, sir, that this Ought to look at, and that boy goes to could have been avoided if .we had had the policeniaii and says—"My father has a constitution upon which we could. been beating me in a way Whqh goes have put our finger. I would like to beyond all reasonable forms of On- appeal to this Court today to think again abou4 what was done on the 22nd. duct", and the policeman says .— "Are February last. Have a - look at. the you 21 ?" And he says — "No, I am not speeches, see what was said about 21 yet." In that case you must make the history of the relationship this complaint thfOugh your father." between the United Kingdom' and Tha is the sort of position Which this argument really is, when they say we the Isle of Man then. Think again: cannot go to the United Nations except Would it not even now be better if we through Great Britain. Now, sir, there got to know exactly where we stand? is however one good point which may Would it not be better "thenin case cOme frOni thig. This does at least under- there are other difficulties in the future'? line the weakness Of our position in so It has also been said, sir, that-this think far as the constitution of the Isle of Man today is an intellectual, academic sort is concerned. The Isle of Man at the of exercise of no great -importance'. moment has a constitution, like so many When all is said and done, all that is at of those countries associated with Bri- issue is a radio ship. Sir, yOu could tain, which is unwritten, which is flex- not be more wrong if that is what you ible, which develops, and which it is thought. I believe, sir, that if we allow the most difficult thing in the world to the British Government to enter unchal- tie anybody down to. Now, sir, as you lenged into the realm of government know, on the 22nd February this year I which has so far been the preserve of unsuccessfully attempted to ask Tyn- the Isle of Man, those very things men- wald to see what could be done about tioned by the learned Attorney reducing our constitution into writing happen. If we allow this to -happen so that each side would know where the what logical argument can we put - for- other stood, so that it could be clearly ward to prevent the United Kingdom stated — this Court belongs to the Isle Government from indeed removing the of Man and that Court belongs to Bri- birch, from indeed applying these tain. If that had been done, sir, if we curious Acts of which the Attorney knew exactly where we stood, if the npoke, to us by Order in Council? But "t's" were crossed and the "i's". dotted, more important, sir, what is there to I do not think this difficulty could occur prevent the United Kingdom from im- today. It is because of this doubt about posing upon us their own system of our constitution — a constitution which direct taxation ? I am one of those, sir, sometimes seems to me can be changed who believe that the prosperity of this to suit the needs of the United Kingdom Island is based upon our enlightened at times—it is because of that I think system of direct taxation. these difficulIies occur. You see, sir, the old relationship of benevolent paterna- Mr Callister: You are quite wrongl

Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council. 1842 TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967

Mr Simcocks: I are always happy, their hopeless amendment had been put sir, to be corrected by the hon. member and lost. Sir, the local Labour Party for North Douglas. I believe, sir, that would appear to be suffering from a this system of taxation is the basis of sort of split loyalty. They have their our prosperity; indeed it is the cause loyalty to their electors on the one hand, of much envy with certain journals and apparently, their loyalty to their from the south of Yorkshire, but I do Socialist brethren in the United King- think that if we were to allow a situa- dom on the other hand. The hon. mem- tion to arise where the full weight of ber for North Douglas asks me "when United Kingdom taxation came upon • we had that?" I would refer him, sir, to us, that the prosperity of the Isle of the 20th October, 1964. I lArould refer Man would disappear even more quickly him to pages 70 and 71 of volume 82 of than most certainly will the radio ships the Hansard, when the hon. member as soon as the Marine etc., Broadcasting attempted to raise as a matter of urgent Offences Act comes into play, whether public importance the necessity of Tyn- it be with the help of the Isle of Man wald pausing in its business in order or whether not. I have mentioned, sir, to extend to the British Government, the question or dictatorship; when I was the Socialist British Government, the speaking of dictatorship I was, of loyalty of the people of the Isle of Man. course, referring to the dictatorship of Now if that is the view of the hon. mem- one man. That one man, sir, is a man ber for North Douglas, perhaps the most who has demonstrated very clearly that vociferous member of our local Labour his word most certainly is not his bond. Party, it is not surprsing then that the If we do not join forces today to resist party is so anxious to avoid supporting what I regard as an aggression into our this measure which affects their friends area of government, if we are not care- on the other side on the one hand, ful, sir, we will find that the word of whilst on the other hand, doing what this man will become not his bond but they can to make the best face on our bondage— things—

Mr Corkish: Who is this man ? Name The Governor: Standing Order 99 — him. Continued Irrelevancy. — The motives of the Manx Labour Party are irrele- Mr Simcocks: And we must take steps vant. to protect ourselves. Members: Hear, hear. Mr Corkish: Who is this man ? Mr Sinicocks: I think I have made Mr Simcocks: Now with regard to the my point, sir. I will leave it to the tape question of the amendment of the to put that on record. (Laughter). I hon. member MT Meree. When the would like just to refer again to the terms of this amendment became amendment of the hon. end gallant known over Manx Radio, I had member for Ramsey. It would be with been approached by a number of per- great reluctance that I would support sons who are very apprehensive about this amendment. I feel that it is weak, this. They have said to me — quite and it is watering down what is the clearly, the Labour Party would like original resolution. The important thing to oppose this resolution, but obviously is, sir, we must not allow this matter to they do not wish to do it outright. They go unchallenged. We must take every would like to put forward an amend- step we can to oppose the British Gov- ment which they know would fail, but ernment in what I believe to be an which would give them the excuse for intrusion into our self-government, our voting against the resolution, after area, of domestic self-government. I

Application of United Kinqdom legislation by Order in 'Council. TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967 1843

hope I have made my point clearly that pointed out, for the committee which there is no doubt that this matter is has been appointed by Tynwald ex- doriieStie, even though wireless tele- pressly for this purpose to accept the graphy is rik Home Office invitation to discuss the matter with them before asking this Sir Ralph Stevenson: Your Exeeilehey, Court to accept such an extreme pro- I rise to oppose this resolution in itg bosal as an appeal to a United Nations entirety. I am not very deeply impressed Commitee. It is well, perhaps, sir,, that by the arguments that have just been the Court should take the two parts put fbi- v.vard by the hon. and learned of the resolat'on separately, and should member fOr Rue:hell. In fact, I think vote on them separately, for it might be tha: he made rather a weak reply to argued that the first nart is not so bad the Attorney-General's very excellent as the second. That may be so, but it is and completely factual statement. Now any a question of deoree. and I hope With respedt—With great respect, indeed that the Coitrt will reject both of them. — to the hon, and gallant mover whose I am convinced that :heir only effect Patriotic feelineS are undoubted, I con- will be to damage our relations with. Sider this resolution to be ill-conceived the United Kingdom on whom, we must and aisainst the interests both Of our remember, our economic prosperity de- Island and also of Great Britain. Despite pends. There is, moreover, another what has been said so far, I am still aspect of this matter. Your Excellency, not quite sure what the real objective which the Court would do well to bear of the reso:ution is. If it is merely a in mind. And here I speak not only for demonstration of indignation or of pro- myself, but for the Industrial Advisory test agains;, what is considered by its Council. 'Considerable efforts have been sponsors to be high-handed and unjust made in recent years to broaden the treatment, it is understandable, but it basis of our economy, and to lessen lags been drafted in such a way as to our absolute dependence on tourism by provoke. I fear, rather more hilarity. fostering the growth of light industry in both inside and ouside the Island than the island. Now these efforts have been anything else. It has often been said attended with a measure of success that any publicity is better than none, which it is hoped to increase in the but at the risk of appearing pompous future. Now we cannot afford to offer I must admit, sir, that I do not appre- the financial inducements which other ciate the Island being made the subject countries can. But' there are two or of more or less humorous cartoons. three main attractions to industrialists Members: Hear, hear. to open up here. The first of these is our relatively favourable tax struc- Sir Ralph Stevenson: And rather ture. The second is the fact that we patronising articles in the mainland are closely knit with the large and Press. Moreover, a serious protest or prosperous United Kingdom market. demons:ration against the activities of The third is the stability of our gov- Her Majesty's Government in the United ernment and administration. In the Kingdom should not contain false im- view of the Industrial Advisory plications, or baseless accusations. If, on Council nothing could be better de- the other hand. of course, the objective signed to destroy these attractions and of the hon. and gallant mover is to bring thus to hamper the development of about., by negotiation, a chancre in our our industry than the policy which relationship with the United Kingdom, is enshrined in this resolution. I have this is certainly not the way to go about said that I am opposed to both parts it Surely, Your Execellency, the right of it. My main objection to the first method is as the Attorney-General is the implication that Her Majesty's

Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council. 1844 TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST fl„ 1967

Government in the United Kingdom able amount of money on it, but we have enforced their domestic policies must admit that. if the Postmaster- on the Island. The hon. and gallant General did give way in our case it member, the mover of the resolution would put him in an impossible posi- is on record in the Press. I believe, tion with scores of other claimants on as saying it has nothing to do with the mainland. This is, as I say, irritating, Radio Caroline. That report was ob- but, it is far from enforcing domestic viously inaccurate judging from his policies on us against our will. One speech. But seeing that action against the so-called pirate radio is not a mat- would think when listening to some ter of domestic policy perhaps he will people that the whole of this and the in his reply detail the domestic United Kingdom Government of what- policies he has in mind, and despi:e ever political colour, spend their time the arguments of the hon, and learned thinking out ways and methods of frus- member for Rushen I do not, think that trating us, whereas it is the experience it is really a question of domestic of those who have had to deal most policy being enforced on. us by the with the officials in London and minis- United Kingdom Government in this ters, that as a general rule they are respect. The only time in My experi- uniformly helpful. But, Your Excel- ence that the United Kingdom Gov- lency. it is to the second part of the ernment come anywhere near infring- resolution my opposition is strongest. ing our domestic interests is in the First of en, what •earthly evidence, as matter of commercial sound radio. the Attorney-General said: can be put Personally, I do not think they have forward as to the intention on the part got a very strong case, but it is a de- of the United Kingdom administration fensible one. In effect, they do not to extinguish our right of self-govern- prevent us from having our own com- ment? I have no doubt that the commit- mercial radio, provided we keep it tee of the United Nations to which the within our Island as we do with other resolution refers, would go through the domestic policies entirely different motions of being helpful, but how, how from those of the United Kingdom is an intention to be investivated unless in which they do not interfere. At some definite action has been taken by the same time the United Kingdom the State under investigation ? Even Governrolent; do nothing about Radio the mover of the resolution would not. Luxembourg, nor indeed do they ad- I am sure, maintain that action taken by here very strictly to the international the United Kingdom to fulfil its inter- agreements on the subject of wireless. national obligations could be regarded as extinguishing our right of self- Mr MacDonald: They don't. government, and we should remember that that right was originally granted by Sir Ralph Stevenson: I said they do the U.K. to us and fostered and ex- not adhere very strictly. But they main- tended over the past 290 years. The so- tain that this does not force them to put called intention, Your Excellency, is a up with commercial sound radio which figment of the bon. mover's imagination. is within their control, and it is, since Finally, are we Manx people less British the Act of 1949. We asked for the Act than the Welsh, or the Nationalist of 1949 to be applied to us. This is very Scottish. The Welsh and Scottish irritating for us, as we cannot with the Nationalist movements are active — power that we are allowed have a sys- some would say even extreme in fur- tem that would cover the Island satis- thering what they consider to be their factorily without spending an unjustifi- rights as distinct peoples, distinct nations. But even they have not gone

Application of 'United Kingdom egislation by Order in Council. TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967 1845

as far as to propose appealing against gratitude for the wonderful free publi- the British Government to foreign coun- city that had been given to the Island tries. For the most part not particularly by her announcers, but at the same time friendly foreign countries at that. I can- should have also shown the British not believe that the hon. and gallant Government that we resented the en- forcement of such a measure on the Isle mover really considers the Island's of Man when Manx Radio was stifled interests would be best served in this from any further expansion of wave- way. I hope that the Court will deci- lengths to cover the North of England sively reject both parts of the resolution. where our tourist trade is mainly drawn I do not agree that there would be a from. In that debate I declared that stalemate if we do this, We have a com- international broadcasting agreements, which I understand (and I am open to mittee of Tynwald, it has been entrusted correction) are only agreements, and with the task of discussing with United cannot be enforced by law except inter- Kingdom all questions of our relations nally and locally by the countries who with that Government. Let them get on so desire, but these agreements were with it, and let us reject the resolution. made as an excuse by the British Gov- ernment In cover their real aims and Mr Vereker: Your Excellency, there the monopoly of the B.B.C. to keep control of future broadcasting cornmer-. is a well-known Manx saying — traa- cial stations. I can quite understand dy-liaoar — which has been likened in • the British Government being embar- meaning to the Spanish "manyana" and rassed by the presence of so-called to which the Island has often been pirate stations around their coasts, and . accused jokingly or otherwise, of adher- in effect being shown publicly how to ingin practice by delaying action, leaving run an efficient commercial radio sta- everything until later, or tomorrow. I tion, and yet at the same time gaining feel that the signatory support of the no control or gains from the way of tax. resolution before this hon. Court today But in their chagrin and inaction in — at least the elected representatives applying legislation, theirs should not of the Manx people — have realised be the right to enforce these measures that tomorrow has arrived (hear, hear!) on this Island, which is already being and are ready to take action to defend made known by its elected representa- the ancient rights of self-government in tives by rejection of such legislation. By domestic policies of this Island. When enforcement by Order in Council and by Radio Caroline anchored off Ramsey Her Majesty's pleasure in applying two or three years ago, little did _anyone such an Order to the Isle of Man we get realise that they were to be the cause the ridiculous situation of both branches of revolt and positive resistance to any of this Court having rejected and objec- continued interference and domination ted to such measures, and passing also by the present British Government in a petition to Her Majesty the Queen, matters of Manx domestic affairs .and the situation where we get our learned policies which we by ancient rights in Attorney-General, as a member of this Tynwald, in this hon. Court, are en- hon. Court of Tynwald honour bound titled to deterrnine by our own decisions to enforce Her Majesty's criminal law in one of the oldest democratic govern- within the realms of the Isle of Man. As rnents. Your Excellency, earlier this an Attorney-General appointed by Her year the elected representatives of Majesty. Yet as a Manxman (we sup- this hon. Court, by total rejection of the pose) and .part of this Court, he should Marine Broadcasting Offences Act, be defending our interests, not directly showed that not only did they openly opposing them, as we have heard by support Radio Caroline, by showing his establishment speech this morning.

Application of United Kingdom egislation by Order in Council. 1846 TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967

We have followed the rejection of the 111 by the Duke of Athol]. We were sold Manx Broadcasting Act, the Marine down the line like a piece of merchan- Broadcasting Act, by a petition to Her dise, regardless of the ancient history Majesty the Queen requesting her to take and government of this Island. notice of the wishes of the Manx people as expressed by this hon. Court when Mr Callister: We were saved from applying Orders in Council to the Isle destruction ! of Man. Subsequently a committee of hon. members met representatives of the Mr Vereker: We are going forward to Privy Council and discussed the possi- further c;e:.truction if we go on as we bility of agreeing to the ellinination of are. We are be:ng regarded now by the Caroline, providing we were given an existing British Government as a piece increased broadcasting power for Manx of merchandise, but now the purchaser Radio within our own shores. This I wants to own the goods solely and com- utterly reject as be'..ng very bad and pletely and treats us like a piece of back-handedlinipriinei.ple. It seems wrong nationalised commodity. 1, and all mem- to me that responsible members of Tyn- bers of this hon. Court, are more than wald should openly back Caroline iby loyal to Her Majesty the Queen as rejection of the Marine Boardcasting Lord of Mann, and neither would we be Act and then be prepared to stab her in very sensible, nor clear thinking, in this the back if they were allowed to expand hon. Court, to agitate for a U.D.I. as has Manx Radio. This to my nand is blatant been mentioned in various papers, or double-crossing, and members of the any sort of break from a good working Privy Council must have seen this, and relationship with Her Majesty's Govern- • I am not surprised they have rejected ment. But when the hum-an rights and the offered bargain. Under today's eir- freedom of a self-governing democracy cumsances, where this hon. Court really to determine its own matters of domes- wishes.to test the strength of the British lie policypolicy are threatened, it is time to Government, I would suggest as I did in stir out of the complacent traa-dy-liooar March that we bring Radio Caroline attitude and protest as a responsible ashore and establish her as a commer- body as others have done in past cial radio Manx station, using her very history with great effect. Apparently, experienced staff and equipment, and according to reports received and state- then challenge the rights of the Big men:s made by various members, the Brother to do anything about it. dictatorial attitude is now embracing the choice-of an all-important issue such ,Mr Kelly: What about Manx Radio ? as the Common Market. H we are to be given no choice in this matter, even Mr Vereker: I would still keep Manx after careful study of the problems Radio as a local wavelength station. involved, this could mean the end of They are doing a very good local ser- the Island's prosperity, its attractions vice, but in this case it would be very for permanent residents and industry, interesting to see which side of the and I would. venture to say possibly fence Her Majesty's Attorney-General, the end of this hon. Court. With all as a member of Tynwald, would be then. due respect, Your Excellency, and hon. Ida not envy his choice either way. But members of this hon. Curt, up until aS has been said, we have reached the now we as Tynwald have been akin to limit of endurance where a radio station a hunt being led astray by a too wily is no longer a fundamental issue at fox in the shape of Harold Wilson, who stake. Two hundred years ago the Island has been endeavouring to lead the pack lost its independence to the British to confusion and ultimate destruction. Crown by the fact that the islanders I would appeal to our M.F:H. to lead were sold out over their heads to George this bunt as a unified body in the shape

Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council. TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967 1847

of Tynwald, controlling its own func- The Speaker: The opening speech, tion, that of the right to our own domes- Your Excellency, at the Common- tic rule, and by voting for paragraph (a) wealth Parliamentary Assembly in 1966 of the resolution, let the fox Wilson contained these words: "In this modern know that he is wasting his time. On age the strength and unity of the the subject of paragraph (b), whilst I feel that we should make our protest Commonwealth family does not lie in in the strongest possible way, I also bonds forged by normal instruments, feel that we should not unduly pre- nor in common ancestry, nor in pursuing judice our present relations with the the same political line. It springs from British Government. We are too the knowledge that we all share a economically and geographically bound lively concern for individual freedom to the mother country for such a step and all the machinery which makes this as an approach to the United Nations. possible." Those, incidentally, are the This resolution to me suggests the words of Her Majesty. In 1965 possibility of a Manx U.D.I. which I the Commonwealth Prime Minisers feel is impossible and which I would met in the United Kingdom. They were not support. Therefore, whilst fighting informed by Britain of her liberal atti- strongly for the principle of item (a) tude to territories under her control, I cannot support item (b) as I consider and it is recorded and I quote, "The it a highly dangerous move, but hon. Prime Ministers of the other Common- members, I would. suggest them to sup- wealth countries noted with approval port the amendment as put forward by the further progress of British terri- the hon. and gallant member for tories to independent membership of Ramsey, Sir Henry Sugden. the Commonwealth since their last meeting. They welcomed the assurance The Speaker: Your Excellency, the of the Prime Minister of Britain that need to discuss a resolution such as this it remained the objective of his Gov- in a parliamentary assembly possessing ernment to lead to independence on the the historic background and democratic basis of democratic government, and principles of Tynwald is, I feel, in the principle of universal adult suf- itself a saddening and somewhat frage such of the remaining territories distressing experience. For ours, sir, as decide it and could sustain it, and has never been a community that has that the British Government" (and this sought extremes on nationalisation, on is important) "would continue to seek nationalism or indeed on any other to devise the most appropriate alter- issue. Over the years we have sought native arrangements for such smaller to excuse the shortcomings of successive territories as were unable, or unwill- United Kingdom Governments in their ing, to proceed to full independence." administrative deficiencies and outdated At the same time, at the United Nations colonialist attitudes, believing that a resolution was adopted by the ultimately things would right them- General Assembly with 97 nations vot- selves, and justice would be done to our ing in• favour including the United people, and Your Excellency, we have Kingdom. which stated "Immediate been fortified in this hope by speeches steps shall be taken in trust and non- from the throne such as Her Majesty's self-governing territories which have to the last Comnionwealth Conference not yet attained independence, to to be held in the United Kingdom. transfer all powers to the people in those territories without any conditions The Governor: Standing Order 100— or reservations in accordance with their Her Majesty's name must not be used freely expressed will and desire, with- to influence a debate. out distinction of race, creed or colour,

Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council. 1848 TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967

irf order to enable them to enjoy com- connection the resolution will have my plete independence and freedom." Your full support, Now Your Excellency, Excellency, regrettably we find, as in the this morning our learned Attorney- issue that has prompted this proposal. General has, without shame, told us of that the promise of such speeches and the constitutional position that exists the fulfilment can he two vastly differ- in ihe eyes of the Home Office. He has ent th:ngs, and that today this, the forgotten to say that it is broadly the oldest self-governing communily in the same constitution that was introduced world has been threatened with the 200 years ago. He has conveniently imposition- of laws against the wishes forgot:en to mention the hard-won Of its own Parliament. A violation of concessions, such as the one conveyed rights and an act of dictatorship, Your in the Secretary of Slate's letter to Sir • Excellency estabished rights have Ambrose Dundas in 1951 which read, also been withdrawn in certain places, "I am directed by the Secretary of notably Common Market negotiations, State to refer to Mr Scott's letter of and other issues have been treated the 8th March about the position of with impuni;,y, until I find myself the Channel Islands and the Isle of sapped of confidence in the fairness of Man in relation to treaties and inter- ;British administration and forced to nalional agreements applicable to the seek a Court of Appeal through some United Kingdom. If the Isle of Man authority. Whether that authority be Government agree a declaration should United Nations or the Commonwealth be made by His Majesty's Government Secretariat is immaterial, but it must accepting the obligations of each par- be an authority that is capable of re- ticular Convention on behalf of the Isle quirinLY Her Majesty's Government in. of Man Government, a declaration may the United Kingdom to conform to the specify such modifications Of the Con- democratic principles they consistently vention as may be necessary to adapt debase in their actions, and prostitute it to local conditions. In future, when in their desire to impose their own a Convention has been ratified by Her domeslic policies on this small com- Majesty's Government the Isle of Man rrninity. Hopefully, sir, over the years Government will be asked whether they we have tried to share in the evolu- w;sh such a declaration to be made: if tion of Her Majesty's colonial terri- at any time after a declaration had been tories and , but made circumstances arose which made ours has been the lot of Cinderella. We it necessary to cancel, or modify the have nevex indulged in outbursts of declaration, this could be done in ac- nationalislic fervour, our attitude of cordance with the terms of the Con- goodwill, coupled with a desire to vention .. ." A great slep forward. Now. exercise the maximum degree of self- our learned Attorney-General has . government without independence, has omitted too, to mention the negotia- brought in re;;urn a poor reward in that ted right to remain out of the European. today our relationship with Her community if we so desire, and forgets Majesty's Government is probably the that breaches of these and similar most archaic in the Commonwealth and concessions by the United Kingdom has resulted in this outrageous and have been challenged consistently and blatantly undemocralic threat of im- I quote here from the minute of a meet- position of legislation in respect to a ing at the Home Office where the domestic issue. With the majority of spokesman for Tynwald, making refer- this Court, sir, I seek the restoration ence to a delay in replying to the re- of democratic rights whether the arbi- quest for the revocation of Orders in ters be the United Nations or the Com- Council said "That Tynwald's resolu- monwealth Secretariat, and in that tion followed a perfectly constitutional

Application of United Kingdom egislation by Order in Council, TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967 1849 course, and the Isle of Man wish for The Speaker; If Her Majesty's G-ov- no delay in these matters. The Island ernment, sir, persist in applying their had full power to control its own dogmas by. Order in Council against affairs, including matters arising out of our wishes. Yes, hon. members, we have had the facts as the learned Attorney- international conventions. When United Genera:, has wished to portray them to Kingdom legislation was extended to us, but they have revealed only part the Isle of Man as a matter of expedi- of the picture. They have omitted, ency, the extending Order in Council however, the important feature which was made on the advice of Tynwald over the years has been the unwilling- and the Queen in Council had never ness of the United Kingdgom contacts to accept for our country anything declined to accept this advice. There which was incompatible with their own were no grounds on which the request domestic policies. To complete the for revocation of 'Orders, extending the Attorney's word-painting today we Acts of 1949 and 1954, which bale need the hand of a master, and I would been mentioned, could be refused." Now refer to the same authority as the Your Excellency, the learned Attorney- learned Attorney-General himself General has also, in making his state- quoted — his predecessor. Mr R. B. ment of, fact this morning, failed to Moore — who wrote after prolonged inform members that had the rights negotiations at the Home Office these contained in the Secretary of State's words, "I have only to add that through- letter • been observed (and they have out the discussions which lasted for the not been) this situation would never greater part of two days there was have arisen and the resolution would It is a abundant evidence that we could not never have been conceived. regard the Home Office as representing point which members may wish to bear the interests of the Isle of Man in any in mind in reaching a conclusion — we case where the interests of the Isle of have not been told in this statement of Man and the United Kingdom called fact that the United Kingdom has within the past month withdrawn our right to for adjustment. The Home Office re- presents the Imperial Government and enter or reject entry to the Common the interests of that Government, and rket the Isle of Man must equally look after Mr Bolton: Who said that? and protect its own interests." Yes, hon members, today we must equally The Speaker: I say it. -look after and protect our own in- terests and in my view the position as The Attorney-General: On what outlined by that very great Manxman. authority? is and has been now for the greater The Speaker: 1 am saying it and you part of thirty years the real position, contradict it if you can. and 1 speak as one who, as Sir !Ralph has mentioned, has over many years Mr Bolton: We will! experienced the suave, negative dip- lomacy of those who tramp the corri- The Speaker: Good. An issue, Your dors of the Home Office, these men Excellency, which will shortly result in --supposedly responsible for our well- another situation such as this— being. With two exceptions in Sir Mr Bolton: Which one are we dis- Austin Strutt, and surprisingly per- cussing Your Excellency? . Is this haps, Sir Charles 'Cunningham. Yes, relevant, the Common Market, sir? they have thought more — but he at Least could stand on his own feet. They The Governor: Yes, it is relevant. have thought more of current British

Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council. 1850 TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967

policies and the need for us to con- ministrations alike, while political form to save them embarrassment than balances and party interests were at they have of the grandiose statements s:ake, until with a Party effectively in made by other sections of their admini- the saddle the issue was faced, and the stration designed to placate and play to the Commonwealth and United matter of the Island's conforming to Nations galleries. Your Excellency, I it was raised. Your Excellency in Exe- have no doubt that in considering this cutive Council plainly informed the resolution there are three points upon. United Kingdom authorities that while which there can be no dispute. The a Bill would be introduced here its first is the undivided loyalty of this acceptance or re:iection was a matter Island to the Lord of Mann. (Hear, hear). The second is that party for the branches of this Court. The politics at Westminster although per- Bill was introduced—the Bill was re- haps touched on this morning, do not jected, and the imposition by an Order enter into our discussions. Your Ex- in Council of the powers of 'that Bill cellency. the record of the United will undoubtedly have the effect, as Kingdom relations with. the Island has, hon.. members have stated, of making irrespective of party, been consistently Manx people criminals if they contra- bad. And the third noint is that by a vene its provisions. If ever, Your large majority, what I would term the Excellency, there was a violation of unfetted members of this assembly wish rights this is such a case, and as such, to see the resolution's sentiments im- I believe, must not go unchallenged. plemented in a manner which will Now if hon. members—you feel that secure belated recognition of our rights you are prepared on this issue to go on and this Ancient Parliament enjoying hoping that a protest alone as conveyed its proper status. Now, sir, where we in Part "A" of the resolution will do differ appears to be on what. this in turn lead to a better relationship, resolution is about, Some members you may think .again if I .tell you that try to read into it many side issues. We this practice of imposing Orders in have been told, for instance, of the Council against Tynwald's wishes will withdrawal of industrial interest if we increase unless you resist it. now. That persist in maintaining a stable Gov- already existing and established rights ernment here. I venture to suggest that of Tynwald have been withdrawn with- industrial interest will quickly be with- in the past month by Her Majesty's drawn if in fact there is a threat of Government, and I am referring to the imposition of outside government on point made by the hon. member for this Island. (Hear, hear). Your Excel- Castletown in reiation. to Common lency, we have made an appeal to the Market entry, and I am speaking now Privy Council, and, Your Excellency, as one of the team that negotiated the our appeal has been rejected. Two Island's position on an earlier occasion of the Ministers sitting in judgment, in —I have studied all the relevant docu- a court of four, on their own decision. ments, and 1 can confirm that right For many years now responsible for our through those talks at no time was own domestic affairs we are to have in there any doubt that we could take our this 20th century United Kingdom in- own decisions on joining the European. tervention in what is undoubtedly a Economic Community. W i :hout as domestic matter, because we refuse to much as by your leave this consti- conform to their policy. We know that tutional right has been withdrawn. Her for years the issue involved in this Majesty's 'Government have thereby particular legislation was sidestepped transgressed every principle of democ- by both Conservative and Labour ad- racy, giving the lie, sir, to the sancti-

Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council. TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8. 1967 1851 monious hypocrisy, as I see it, of that The Speaker: It was in connection with Government's expressed support for Common Purse negotiations. Now, Your democratic rights. With such people, Excellency, agreed Orders in Council hon. members, protest alone will avail for which we have sought repeal have you nothing. I believe our protest must remained, as their repeal would in fact possess two essentials if it is to suc- effect some current policy of the United Kingdom Government. Our continental ceed. The first is the strength of truth shelf oil rights were sequestered by the -and it has that. And the second—it British Government, and only after the must have an organisation that oper- strongest possible intervention was de ates on democratic principles to con- facto recognition given to our rights. sider it, and the amendment or the re- Our agreements in relation .to air trans- solution would Rive you that. I am not port was withdrawn with less than two speaking of the Labour Party amend- hours' notice to this government. For ment, because that amendment, as far years we hove endured the nuisance of as I am concerned is right out of court, sonic booms over our coastline through it is unrealistic, it is a "red herring" test flights by British aircraft, getting across the trail. Your Excellency, I an assurance each time there would be make these submissions to the Court no repetition while the next day would thIs morning because, sir, for too long witnesd an even more violent explosion. we have witnessed our interest in in- ternational conventions treated with MT Kelly: What about the seamen's contempt. There never appeared, as strike ? these hon. members well know, to be sufficient time for consultation to take The Speaker: Our fishing, YOUT Excel- place before they are applied to the lency, is curtailed by United Kingdom Isle of Man, and let the Attorney- bombing ranges within our territorial General contradict that! And, Your waters on the grounds that no other Excellency, I would quote you a typical suitable range exists in the . reply to submissions from this Island Our desire to have commercial radio has to the Home Office. This is it. We been dominated, not by international have had in mind for some time the conventions, but by British domestic knowledge that we have not given the policy, because even today we could Isle of Man authorities anything much turn up the power on Manx Radio and in the way of information about the keep in line with international conven- progress of the negotiations, and the tion and magnify it by at least 150 times implications for the Island since the the Present power. Sir, I could go on to meeting last year, but the negotiations enumerate grounds of dissatisfaction on which so much depends, as you will where protests made have availed us appreciate, are in a very fluid state. We nothing. If hon. members, however, are in a process of discussing these mat- still have .reservations and believe the ters with other departments concerned. United Kingdom will accept OUT submis- and we expect to be able to send an in- sions, I suggest that that would be vitation for a further conference next against the verdict of history, for his- week. I am sorry I cannot be more tory reveals that such governments precise, but I am sure you will appre- rarely act until they are pushed. Let me ciate the difficulty is one of timing." quote a well-known Labour parliamen- That is the sort of trite reply we con- tarian, Patrick Gordon-Walker, who in sistently get. his book " The Commonwealth" says, " Time and again it is the British Gov- Mr Callister: In connection with what ernment which evades, postirxmes or was that ? temporises while other governments

Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council. 1852 TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967

press on to secure yet another of the passed that although the United King- requirements that were patently dom did allow us to do it within our needed." He mentions that one device own shores, they did not allow us to counter the rising tide of what he to appoint agents in the United King- termed "democratic subversion" was dom, because they, themselves, did not through that invention—the Crown allow these lotteries, and many of us Colony. Predictably enough, he says. have agreed with the suggestion that, " The rigidity of such administrations provided we did things within our own wa9 threatened by the rising tide of Island, and did not interfere in any way nationalism, but in most cases White- with the domestic policy of the United hall was able to hold off for another Kingdom, that the United Kingdom half century before having to grant invariably would allow us to do A. B representative Legislative Councils." and C, and we find no evidence whatso- and he states that it was from this less- ever of this at any time being inter- than-liberal empire that there sprang, fered with. This theory is subscribed to without design, indeed, against Britain's by the hon. member for Rushen, MT intention, the Commonwealth. Hon. Simcocks, who, although he supports members, today we are proudly, but wholeheartedly the resolution that :s perhaps somewhat ironically, members before us, he said, in another Chamber, of a free Commonwealth of Nations. I on the 7th March, "in recent years Her think it is fitting that we should turn .Majesty's Government have not sought to them in the first instance to secure to intervene with the domestic legisla- a redress of our grievences, because if tion of the Island, save only so far as today we wish to ensure a future which, it is necessary to ensure that the admin- in the words of our National Anthem istration of financial affairs of the will be " as free as our sweet mountain Island are conducted on a proper basis." air," then this Court, 1 submit, must This, I think, is universally agreed by support without division a resolution us all that we have had to date no inter- which is not only capable of protest, but ference whatsoever from the United of making such a protest stick. Kingdom Government in our own affairs— The Governor: The court will now adjourn until 2.30 p.m. Mr Simcocks: I was quotIng the Home The Governor: Mr Nivison. Office. Mr Nivison: Your Excellency, the Isle Mr Nivison: I am quoting from you, of Man formany reasons over the years sir. has always tended to exploit positions whereby they could strengthen the base Mr Simcocks: You are quoting my of their economy. One of the greatest quote ? examples of this, was the fact that they were able to close their roads and allow Mr Nivison: Yes, quoting your quote. T.T. Races to be held in the Isle of Man whereas in the United Kingdom this Mr Simcocks: Thank you, sir. was not permissible. From time to time Mr Nivison: Of the 7th March— we have sought other means of trying to strengthen the base of our economy Mr Sinicocks: Of the Home Office. and we must not be condemned for this. We have tried over the years such Mr Nivison: This if7 what you stated. things as casinos, lotteries — although it must be confessed so far as lotteries Mr Simcocks: I was quoting what the are concerned — here a remark was Home Office said.

Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council. TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1907 11353

Mr Nivison: Yes, I think you have as bringing Caroline ashore, it is not also agreed with those sentiments as a possibility. We must establish that. you stated in the House of Keys, and Somebody said we would bring Caroline you agreed today — and you said when ashore and we perhaps would make a asked, when challenged, "This is the bit of money out of them. I have no first time that something of this nature doubt that if we were to invite the is happening." I said that we all sub- train robbers here and offer them sanc- scribe to this theory that we would like tuary we might be able to derive some to find the means of bringing addi- money from them. I have no doubt. but tional revenue to the Island. I think we are committed so far as I am aware, there are many in this Chamber who to the Manx Radio and if any commer- hope that commercial radio would be cial radio is to succeed in the Isle of a possibility in the Isle of Man, not Man it is to be the one we are com- only for the 50,000 people of the Isle mitted to — Manx Radio. Now in the of Man, but to cash in on the bigger speeches this morning the hon. member markets of the United Kingdom. This for Castletown, the hon. and gallant exercise was first tried by Mr J. H. L. member Commander Vereker, made Cowin over 30 years ago — over 30 rel'erence to certain members saying they years ago — with no success. It was were prepared to throw Caroline over subsequently tried again and again by — these were not his exact words — if our great friend, the late member or we could get a station of our own. Here ex-member for Castletown, Mr Cole- he is condemning one of his own sup- bourn, who probably put too much paint porters, who said, again on the 7th on the canvas, and did inform us that March, my hon. friend from East Doug- when we would get this particular las, Mr Irving, said, "I am prepared to station we would earn millions a year. agree to torpedo Radio Caroline when won't say the number of millions, and if we could get a Manx Radio with some say six, some Say five, some mil- sufficient power, but not until then." Lions anyway., a year. Not from the Mr Irving: I would agree to Radio people of the Isle of Man but from the people of the United Kingdom, and Caroline buying Manx Radio too. only because this type of radio was not Mr Nivison: Ah, but don't qualify permitted in the United Kingdom. If what you said previously. You will have it was perinttted in the Uited Kingdom; that opportunity. I want to make it I do not think we would have seen abundanty clear that it is my opinion, Caroline in Ramsey Bay, it would have the hon. member for Peel, who is in been safely entrenched somewhere in charge of this motion, has told me in the United Kingdom, and we have tried. no uncertain terms, that he is satisfied Now when this matter came before one that Caroline will go at the appointed of the branch.e:, of the , some date and he— of us felt, perhaps, the legislation was coming a bit early. We felt that it was Mr MacDonald: No, I haven't. being, we were being asked. to pass this legislation before even the United King- Mr Nivison: Haven't you ? dom has passed it, and some of us felt Mr McDonald: Not at the appointed that we should still use it as a bargain- date. ing pont for our own Manx Radio for whom we have commitments. We are Mr Nivison: Well it is an established committed to Manx Radio and there fact that Caroline will ultimately go are certain people who have spoken this and, when I rose to my feet I was going morning who know quite well that we to pose the question "What is this all are committed to Manx Radio and as far about?" Some papers have stated that

Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council, 1854 TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, l967 it is in defence of Radio Caroline. Some far and I want to make it abundantly papers have stated that. Other papers clear that the resolution before us iS have stated that it is in defence of the not based on fact at all. It has become Manx nation's independence. I would somewhat emotional and I would say say that I have lived here all of my life: that some of the utterances — I love I have been a member of the Legisla- listening to Radio Caroline — I would ture for approximately 20 years and we like to see a means of sustaining such have not yet felt this yoke on our a wonderful programme for the young- shoulders of suppression or depression, sters but I heard it at lunch time and I or interference, from the United King- almost got up and stood at attention dom whatsoever, but I would say, Your when they were playing the Manx Excellency, that as a member of the National Anthem. This nation that was Government of the Isle of Man and as fighting for its dear lite and freedom, the chairman of a responsible Board, fighting the entire world, and this we have had terrific co-operation with oppressive United Kingdom was getting certain departments in the United King- at the very throat of this little nation_ dom. In the Social Services Board of Even the announcer that followed this which I have been chairman for many tape recording had some humour in his years, they have gone out of their way voice about the sentimentality of the to assist us in every possible way and announcement that Came over. It's they have pointed out to us where we stirring stuff and this is the stuff that could benefit very, very substantially, has been put through the length and financially too. With regards to our breadth of the United Kingdom and Health Services it is known that the this is the reason why our galleries are number of cases that are treated in the full today, and we welcome all of the United Kingdom, of Manx people, of journalists that have come from far Manx residents here, the amount o: and wide. We wish you would come work that is done, i.s enormous. We, in more often and we wish you would turn, of course, treat our visitors when come on matters where there is pos- they come to the Isle of Man, but, on sibly no blood to be spilt. Where pos- balance, we get a very much bette. • sibly no heads are to roll, but then this deal, and in education, I know there will is the sort of stuff that does influence a be speakers following that will tell of great deal of interest and here we might the enormous amount of financial assis- say to Mr MacDonald, the mover, that tance. So any papers that have stated perhaps he has not done too bad a job that they are of the opinion that there in arousing the interests of so many are certain Manxmen standing up for people in this particular subject but the rights and independence, that we when we have said that we must get should break off our relationship with down to realities and try and get what the United Kingdom— we are after. I am still one of those who would like to see commercial radio in Mr Kelly: Who has said all this ? the Isle of Man. I would like to see greater power being given: I can under- Mr Nivison: I have not said that you stand the reason why this is not forth- said it, my friend. coming--

Mr MacDonald: I haven't said it. Mr MacDonald: We have got com- Mr Nivison: I have said that it had mercial radio now. been hinted at in some of the papers. Perhaps you are not debating but I Mr Nivison: Of greater power, my am permitted to say it, Your Excellency. friend. I am aware of this. I have lived You will tell me, perhaps, if I go a little on the Island longer than the hon. mem-

Application of United Kingdom egislation by Order in Council. TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967 L855 her. He thought fit to go and seek from the Privy Council at Whitehall, it service in the service of the United does say "Her Majesty approved the Kingdom for quite a time— committee's report and I am to enclose a copy of the Order in Council for your Mr MacDonald: I served the Crown. information. A sealed copy of the Mr Nivison: Did you? Order has been forwarded to Her Maj- esty's Principal Secretary of State for Mr MacDonald: Yes. the Home Department for formal trans- mission to the ." Mr Nivison: I see, and the Crown It then goes on to say "an Order in paid you, did they ? I understand Council will be submitted for approval that the taxpayers of the United King- of Her Majesty in Council as soon as dom pay the Servicemen of the Isle of may be, extending the Marine etc., Man and they paid me my pittance Broadcasting Offences Act to the Isle when I was in the Services too and they of Man." I am of the opinion that there are still paying the Servicemen in the is still time to ask His Excellency to Isle of Man— convey the wishes of this Court that Mr MacLeod: What has that got to Her Majesty may sustain her hand until do with this? For goodness sake get such time as we have had the oppor- back to the resolution. tunity ourselves of dealing with an affair of our own, and this is the meat Mr Nivison: In my own good time. of the amendment as proposed by Mr Now I want to say with regard to McFes — in order that we might do it the hon. member for Rushen- ourselves, because what is to be done is not so much inflicting any hardship Mr MacDonald: Some didn't serve. upon the people of the Isle of Man, Mr Nivison: Well, they may not have it is to prevent an embarrassment to been able, my friend. I do not condemn the United Kingdom. Caroline is not in them. the shores of Ramsey particularly for the people of the Isle of Man but for Mr MacLeod: Mr Nivison was a mem- the people of the United Kingdom, from ber of the Air Force. I can vouch for whence it derives its income through that. advertisements; from whence it derives its listening public. The numbers of MT Nivison: That is right. Now, I people that listen to Caroline in the want to make same reference to the Isle of Man would not warrant the amendment that is before us which I enormous amount of money that is paid wauld like to second, Your Excellency, for the advertisements over Caroline. the amend.nent as proposed by Mr and if they were not permitted to broad- IsleFee and it was stated by the hon. cast to the United Kingdom, I do share member i'or Rushen, if he would listen the sentiments passed that Caroline for a moment— would not remain here very long. So in Mr Simeocks: I can't help hearing. seconding the resolution I would hope that it would be possible for us to ask Mr Nivison: Thank you Very much. His Excellency if he would convey the He d'd seem to suggest that the Order message from the Tynwald Court that in Council was now fait accompli and we might ask Her Majesty to withdraw and I would draw his attention to a the Order and in the meantime we, our- letter that was submitted to members selves, should endeavour to get what we saying — it is true that we have had a are after. You cannot get what you are sealed copy of what the Order should after by trying to be a big nation. We be and in the letter of the 31st July cannot do it on our own. We cannot do

Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council. 11356 TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 1qti1

it without the assistance of the United affect the fate of Caroline. I think all Kingdom Government. There is no ques- would recognise that. So let us try and tion in my mind about that and we, in- adopt a method whereby we can enter stead of kicking the United Kingdom into serious negotiations with the Government, whichever Government it United Kingdom Government in the is, because they have, although there hope that Our Manx Radio May get niore be able to serve more people was a division on this Bill incidentally, power to It was just purely because whatever and I think this is a better method party was in power, the other would than resorting to the United Nations or have been in opposition to it. This is even to the Secretariat of the Common- the normal pattern in the United King- wealth Parliamentary Association. I feel sure that the case, particularly :dom. During the 13 years of the other party's Government, they had indicated after the very eloquent speech of the learned. Attorney, which would, they that they would take some steps to obliterate this nuisance that has been would make reference to this in any provided internationally and there is no Court that this matter was to . be dealt question about it, that the Government with, the official opinion, as given by of the United Kingdom do wish to regu- •the Attorney-General, would be taken larise the question of broadcasting. I and I believe we would have no case believe, that we in the Isle of Man could whatsoever to put to either the Com- well, by persuasive methods, get our monwealth Secretariat or the United own radio station enlarged; get it in Nations, but with our friends in the such a position that it could do a certain i United Kingdom, and we have many amount of broadcasting and I would riends- urge that the Court should give further Mr MacDonald: You have. consideration to the amendment that is proposed. I am not going to make any Mr Nivison: You have a It of friends, reference to the nonsense that is sug- my friend. Mr MacDonald is constantly gested about going to the United jibing. I am a member of the Labour Nations. This has been ridiculed in Party, so was Mr MacDonald for many many places — in many papers —I Years until he felt it more convenient myself was in London for seven days to gain the support of the electors by last week and found that it was treated seeking Independence-- humorously. They were treating it as somewhat of a joke, associating it with Mr MacDonald: Until I served my "Mon Generale" and all sorts of things. lime in London. Humour was the essence of the day. We want to take the humour out of this. It Mr Nivison: It had nothing to do with is a very serious question. The Isle of the changing of his political persua- 'Man has a serious responsible Govern- sions.- He thought he would be able to ment. We want to get something and gain success easier by backing every the best way to get it is not by these horse in the race- kind of methods. I know it is nice to Deemster Kneale: He wanted to be beat the drum. I have beaten it quite a lot in my day, Your Excellency, this Independent. is not the hour to beat the drum. We Mr MacDonald: I was bound to win. want to take a serious view of this, with a view to getting our own com- Mr Nivison: You were bound to win mercial radio. We must recognise of course. You back every horse in the Caroline, whether we like it or not, race and you are bound to win. I would and whatever we do today will not urge that— forget parties and so forth affect the fate of Caroline. Will not — I would say, Mr Speaker, how de-

Application of United Kingdom egislation by Order in Council. TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 15367 1857 lighted we were to hear your contribu- upon which to base the application to . tion on this particular subject, because the British Government to effect what, I think It absolutely right. It was rather Tynwald desires. The resolution nomi.,. naughty. I thought, of the hon. member before the Court, Your Excellency, ,i,s, for Castletown to make reference to the obviously the outcome of a. single. issue' Prime Minister of England in the way relating to the suppression of the radio he did, regardless of who that man ship Caroline, and that may.well be. a • should be and I would hope that he vcry good reason why the British . would not do that. This is not always Government want to retain the power the best way to get things done by to have Orders in Council. Your Excel- skitting at people, by being naughty lency, this issue in regard to Radio and the amendment I believe, is a more Caroline is of very little importance to businesslike way of trying to get some- the Isle of Man. ac• far as I am con-. thing we are after, The other way of cerned, but what I an rather concerned course is good for drum beating and about is that th's Government is under.. headlines and all the rest of it but even- the shadow of the Common Market and tually we will get nothing out of it. I with all the implications that would he second the amendment and hope that imposed upon this Island, if ever it had somebody will add to this amendment to enter into the European Economic the deletion of "A" as well as "B". I Community, would be disastrous, so I intend to vote against the resolution in would be prepared to support any reso- its entirety but hope that the amend- lution on the lines that I have men- ment might be passed with the deletion tioned ir such a resolution was moved. to "A". but I will certainly vote against this resolution that is here before the Court The Governor: Mr MacLeod. today. • Mr MacLeod: Your Excellency, as The Governor: The member for Garff. has already been stated by the learned Attorney-General there can be no ques- Miss Thornton-Duesbery: Your Excel- tion whatsoever about the Crown lency, I rise to support, Indeed to second having power to make Orders in Coun- because I think it has not yet been done, cil. For instance in 1961 there were the amendment proposed by the hon... seven Orders in Council made embrac- and gallant member for Ramsey. I . do ing the Isle of Man. Over and above so with a sense of relief and of hope_ that • the Parliament in London have which I trust may be shared by the power by Act of Parliament to impose majority of members of this hon. Court,. any Act they pass if it especially men- as they consider its terms. I believe, if tions the Island or the Island is so carried, this amendment would .meet included by necessary implication. If the wishes of the great majority. of• the Tynwald is satisfied that the people of people of this Island whom we here the Island desire the abolition of the have the honour and very great respon- power of Parliament and the power of sibility to represent. _They, and .-we, the Queen in Council to pass legislation ourselves, rightly cherish, and indeed embracing the Island, I do not think are determined to preserve our ancient that an approach to the United Nations right of self-government. We are pro- is the best step to take, Your Excel- foundly disturbed by actions of the lency, I would prefer in place of the United Kingdom Government which resolution a resolution requesting the may in any way threaten these rights. appointment of a commission including At the same time, I believe I speak fpr legal experts in constitutional law, to very many, when I say that we .have investigate the problem and to prepare serious doubts and fears as to the a sound case, if such a case exists, wisdom of the course of action proposed

Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council. 1858 TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967 in the resolution moved by the hon. this, I don't think for a minute that member for Peel. Such is an extreme this is what they wanted, but when I measure and might well damage, rather did see such remarks as were credited than further our cause. Is there no to the hon. mover of the resolution other way, no other body to whom -we when asked what would happen if can apply for aid, more in proportion England sent soldiers over here, he said and context to our needs? Here, I be- he would be prepared to fight them. lieve, Your Excellency, in this amend- This makes me wonder where we are ment the hon, and gallant member for Ramsey sets such a way before us, I going. I have been in many fights in my understand that the Commonwealth life, both with words, fists and guns, Secretariat is empowered to take action and I am not in the habit of running when require& It has teeth. It is surely away, but to start fighting on behalf the body we need to help us at this criti- of Radio. Caroline, to my mind is so cal juncture in our affairs. It is with real ridiculous that I wouldn't even contem- confidence that in this amendment we plate it. In fact I would help the British have a sound course of action set before Government all I can to sink it and the us and the one most likely to produce sooner we do this the better and get it results, that I beg to second it. out of the road, the sooner we will be able to see where we are going— The Governor: Mr Kneale. Mr Kelly: That is only your view Mr Kneale: Your Excellency, it has that. been said that Harold Wilson has gone to the Scilly Isles but having read all Mr Kneale: We have lost sight of our the stufl that has been published in the original intention which was to get a papers last week, I wonder where the high-powered commercial radio station Scilly Isles really are. It is a well-known for the Island. Some members have fact that this is the silly season for the gone off at a tangent, shouting "hands newspapers. Parliament is in recess and off Caroline" and "we want independ- everybody is on holiday and they have ence," It is time we stopped to think what got to find something to write about and this is all about and how we have arrived this has been a glorious opportunity at this situation. As other members of given to them to fill their papers and the Court have already said, and I think they have gone to town. If this was in- members should be reminded over and tended as a publicity stunt it has been over again about this, in 1952 the Manx a huge success but if it was meant as Government asked the United Kingdom a serious resolution then I am afraid Government to extend the 1940 Wire- that by the utterances that have been less Telegraphy Act to the Isle of Man, quoted in the Press of some members, by Order in Council, which put the it has turned into a Gilbert and Sullivan allocation of wireless transmitters comic opera, and this is a pity because I entirely in the hands of the Postmaster- consider it is a most important discus- General. Tynwald at that time may not sion and the reason why I signed the have known the implications of what request for this Tynwald to be called. they were doing but they asked for this. Not because I agreed with the terms of In 1954 a TelevisiOn Act was introduced the resolution but I felt that the matter into the United Kingdom Parliament should be discussed publicly. All this and the Isle of Man was asked- whether talk about and total independ- we wished the Act to be extended to ence is so ridiculous as to be not even us by Order in Council. Tynwald agreed mentioned. I do not think any of the and. passed a resolution asking for such members, even though they have been an extension. In October 1961 Mr Cole- quoted in the papers as claiming for bourn moved. a resolution in Tynwald

Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council. TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967 1859

requesting Her Majesty the Queen by country concerned. The United King- rd ill GOunell to revoke the Tele- dom representatives then went on to say vision Act 1954 (iSie a Man) Order that "if the termination of the applica- 1957 and this was carried unanifflOusly, tion to the—'— Ig,.77;f Man of the W4ii7&I In January 1962 Mr Colebourn moved a Are1949 was to be con- further resdlutien asking the Queen to sidered the United Kingdom Govern- revoke the Wireless Telegraphy (Isle of ment----- wO_Wd_wish_to_he_assured - that_ tlae Man) Order 1952 and again this wäS Isle of Man could, and would, continue to honour these obligations," to which carried unanimously. This was the final the Isle of Man delegation replied "that act of a dying House of Keys. Later in 1962 a nOw Hotise of Keys brought in the Isle of Man had no desire to act the Wireless Telegraphy 3i1i and passed contrary to international agreements or it and this was to enable US to set up to cause interference with the recep- our own station. This was passed tions in other territories." The request through all readings of both branches for a powerful station to extend over and again Was accepted unanimously. the mainland was dropped by the Manx In 1959 the United Kingdom Government Government and in September 1962 a had ratified the International Telecom :ormal request was made to the United munication Convention of Geneva 1959 Kingdom Government that the Isle of on behalf of the Isle of Man, without con- Man should. as a separate entity, have uS but as, far as I can see no-one a service for the Island only and one in the Island objected and it was April which could be commercial if Tynwald 1962 when a delegation_frolg-Tynwald so desired. This request was accepted met officers of the Poet Office and Home by the United Kingdom and Manx Radio Office, at the Home Office to discuss the came into being. We had then got our two resolutions passed by Tynwald that foot in the door Of radio transmission. the matter was next raised and when The arrival of Radio Caroline, I believe Mr Colebourn said that he objected to it was in 1964, has proved to be a dis- it having been passed without consult- traction from our main objective and ing us, Sir, Charles Cunningham_ who instead of getting our shoulder to the presided, had this to say in his opening door and heaving, once we got our fool, remark — "The demand for frequencies in, we started pulling, recently, in the could and often did exceed the supply wrong direction. And some members of which made it essential to co-ordinate this Court who were in the delegation their use in accordance with interna- to the Home Office in April 1962 and tionally agreed plans. This was one of had assured the United Kingdom repre- the main objects 411.f. the Convention. In sentatives that the Isle of Man had no consequence, there had to be one final desire to act contrary to international authority to control the use of frequen- agreements or to cause interference cies in the United Kingdom and Islands, with reception in other territories, in order that the United Kingdom openly expressed support for Radio Government could honour these inter- Caroline, who, without a doubt, is acting national obligations." Then ha goes on contrary to international agreements — "one of the most important obliga- and is definitely interfering with trans- tiong—WS that transmitters in one missions in other countries — to such country should not interfere with those an extent that one country had warned iapei'a-tiiiin &t her This meant the United Kingdom that if they do not hat transmissions shou not be at a take immediate action to remove Cam- power exceeding that necessary to line then that country intends to jam maintain a satisfactory standard of all the United Kingdom Home Service service within the boundaries of the stations. It is no good arguing that be-

Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council. 11160 TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1087

cause Caroline is outside the three mile Marine Broadcasting Bill to the Isle of limit that what they are doing is right. Man, being submitted for her approval Wherever their situation what they are in Council, Mr Simcocks made reference doing is internationally wrong. The to Orders in Council having alreaay United Kingdom Government should been signed but the hon. member of have acted long ago over Caroline and Council, Mr Nivison, has dealt with the other pirate stations and should this and 1 hope the confusion can be have got shut of them before they were absolutely cleared by the Governor firmly established.. Other countries giving his assurance that no sealed copy when they were faced with the same of the Order in Council to extend the issue of pap stations round their coasts Marine Broadcasting Bill has been acted immediately and got rid of these received in the Isle of Man— people without any fuss. The House of The Governor: Yes, I can. Keys made a major political blunder when they rejected the Marine Broad- Mr Kneale: Remembering the words casting Bill. To imagine that by so of Messrs. Simcocks and Irving, Her doing that they would use this as a Majesty had thus refused to protect us lever to force the British Government from the threat of aggression from to give us more power for Manx Radio Whitehall and was pleased so to do. was just pious thinking. All it showed was that some members could not be Mr Irving: I didn't say that. You said relied on to support international agree- that, not me. ments ratified on our behalf, whether Mr Kneale: I am quoting what is on we had been consulted or not — we the petition that has been sent to us: were tied up by this ratification. Not She was pleased so to do." Now what content with that we followed it up by is the next logical step ? Should we sack another political blunder.,T,ynwald,b, q. Her Majesty as Lord of Mann ? The majority vote, der...Wei:I not to start resolution before us today starts oil by nTgi:, 71 ) -i-arions with the U-n-TiTd—Kmg,- . re-affirming the loyalty of this Island Uovernment but to by-pass them and to Her Majesty the Queen as Lord of 1 I petition Her Majesty the Queen Lord Mann and finishes up by saying we '..11, - oflyfann: To quote the words of the should report her action in rejecting ° mover of that resolution, the hon. mem- our petition to the committee of United ber for Rushen, Mr Simcocks, This Nations charged with protecting the petition is an appeal to Her Majesty to interests of colonial and subject people. protect us, her loyal subjects, from the Remember it was the Queen that we , threat of aggression of Whitehall," and petitioned • in the words of the hon, member for East Douglas, Mr Irving. in support, The Governor: Under Standing Order who said, "this petition is an appeal to 100 you are getting very close to being the Lord of Mann for Her protection out of order. against Her Parliament in Westmin- Mr MacDonald: Why should he go on ster." The petition was duly sent with this, sir ? to Her Majesty and it was she who handed it over to the Privy Council to Mr Kneale: I am quoting what took deal with. A deputation from Tynwald place in this Court. was received by a committee of the Mr MacDonald: It is nothing to do Privy Council to hear any elaboration with the resolution, of the Manx case. The result of all this was that the petition was rejected and Mr Kneale: Oh yes it has. The petition Her Majesty was pleased to approve of that went from this Court was one to an Order in Council extending the the Queen.

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The Governor: I will just read Stand- Mr Kelly; You are quite wrong there. ing Order 100 "No member may use Her Majesty's name irreverently in Mr Kneale: The number of staying debate or for the purpose of influencing visitors has gone down since Caroline Tynwald in its deliberations." arrived from a yearly average of 368,000 for four years prior to her arrival Mr Kneale: I will do neither of those The Governor: The hon. member is things sir. I was just saying that this straying over the boundary of relevancy. Court sent a petition to the Queen. That is what I have said arid, I have said Mr Kneale: Caroline has been defi- what the Queen's reply was — facts. nitely tied up with this. I am referring Radio Caroline's chief has been praising to the remarks made on Caroline, sir, the action of this House of Keys in supposed to be supporting our demands throwing out the Marine Broadcasting for a station. I am just showing you Bill and has compared the Isle of Man how ridiculous these claims are. How- to David fighting the Goliath of Mr ever, I bow to your ruling and will — the smallest Goliath I have ever make no further reference to the people come across, and added "this takes guts that Caroline has brought to the Island. and we will be right behind them." I I think the Court should correct the am sure we find this all very reassuring. mistake made by the House of Keys in We should make it quite clear to him_ rejecting the Marine Broadcasting Bill that we in this Island are not so gullible and I move an amendment to paragraph as to fall for this blarney and we should "A" of this resolution. That the follow- also make it quite clear to him that ing words should be added — "and re- flattery will get him nowhere in this quests the United Kingdom to extend issue. The mover of the resolution, Mr the Marine Broadcasting Offences Act MacDonald, as chairman of the Broad- to the Isle of Man by Order in Council." casting Commission, knows full well I support the mover of this resolution that our duty is to Manx Radio, and he in believing that we should state that has declared on many occasions that he we are not having any interference with is not interested in Caroline. Let him our internal affairs, our domestic prove that by sinking Carolinday„ affairs, but Radio Caroline is certainly so that we can ge saconh-e- no domestic affair. Radio Caroline on reaLball — more powerorr— oT"- t- )v=- our doorstep is an international affair .2tation — an then we shall have a and is an encumbrance to the Island unanimous Tynwald again on this issue and to the British Government, and an 0 a_s_w_e_ha_d_uali,et us stop play- embarrassment. That does not mean ing lackey to Caroline and act respon- that I think the United -1

Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council. 1862 TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967 tions Convention on behalf of the Isle they gave us more power for Manx of Man, without consulting us. The allo- Radio." Well I cannot 'answer for the cation of wavelengths is an international deputation that went to the Privy Coun- matter but when the United Kingdom cil, I don't know what deal they tried to applied on behalf of the Isle of Man, make but I can speak on behalf of what then, of those allocated to the United took place when Mr MacDonald and I Kingdom, one must belong to us, be- went, representing the Manx Govern- cause they applied on our behalf and we should accept il, not as something ment, to meet the officials of the Post that has been graciously given to us by Office. We tried to make no such deal. the United Kingdom, to broadcast We stated our case quite clearly. More locally on, but one which rightly has power for Manx Radio. The meeting been allocated to us internationally. almost finished in five minutes as the Great stress has been laid on the fact Post Office officials had been given in- that we must not break international structions only to discuss ways of agreements. Let us again remember the improving the service of Manx Radio words of Sir Charles Cunningham to within the Island, and that being so it the delegation in April 1962 on this was soon obvious that there was no issue. He said, "one of the most im- common ground for discussion, and it portant obligations was that the trans- was only on the intervention of the mitters in one country should not Home Office official that discussions interfere with those operating in other did proceed and covered the whole field countries." This meant that transmis- of broadcasting. One of their technicians ; sions should not be at a power exceed- informed the meeting, that in his . ing that necessary to maintain a satis- opinion, to adequately cover the Island factory standard of service within the from one transmitter would require a boundaries of the country concerned. power of 10 kilowatts, and certainly of We certainly have not got a satisfactory not less than five kilowatts. This was service within the boundaries of the Isle their top expert on this. That is why we of Man, but, we want to remember that stated our minimum requirement was a the waveband on which Manx Radio is transmitter of five kilowatts. We operating has been allocated for use accepted his expert advice. A point that within the United Kingdom and the come out quite strongly at this meeting British Islands and so long as we do not was that the United Kingdom was not go outside those :boundaries I can't see anxious to have another international how we are breaking international law. convention to re-allocate wavelengths The other argument put forward by the for they realised they had more than United Kingdom Post Office is that com- their fair share at present and were mercial radio is not allowed in the frightened of losing some. That is why United Kingdom, so they cannot allow our proposed approach to the LT.U. us to spill into England operating on a — International Telecommunications licence issued by their own Postmaster- Union — to become an associate mem- General. This embarrassment can be ber— removed very, very easily by revoking the Order in Council of 1952 as this The 'Governor: This is irrelevant to Court unanimously requested, and we the proposal before the House. can then authorise the Governor to issue the licence to Manx Radio. It has Mr Kneale: In what way, sir ? been openly stated in the local Press — The Isle of Man attempts to make a The Governor: It has no relevancy, deal with the United Kingdom Govern- no relation to the original resolution or ment fhat we would sink Caroline if any of the amendments put forward.

Application of United Kinffclom legislation by Order in Comicil. TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967 1863

Mr Kneale: It ties up with the whole The Governor: Which one ? Which issue of how— one are you moving ? The Governor: The intention of the Mr Kneale: I am moving the amend- United Kingdom Government about ment. getting more conventions is not rele- The Governor: Will you move all your vant. amendment in one then, please ? Mr Kneale: I had finished with that. Mr Kneale: I'll do that at the end sir, before you interrupted. 1 still say, when I have got it written as one, sir. sir, that this House, this Court, should approach the I.T.U. immediately to be- The Governor: I must ask for order, come associate members so that we can ple.ase. If you wish to move the amend- be allocated a frequency of our own ment move it entirely, now. without having any tie-up in the future Mr Kneale: Right, sir. I move that the with the United Kingdom Government following words should be added to acting on behalf in this way. I would paragraph "A" of the resolution, "and remind members that the I.T.U. is the request the United Kingdom's Govern- specialised agency of the United Nations, .ment to extend the Marine Broadcast- whose object is to maintain and extend ing Offences Act to the Isle of Man by international co-operation for improve- Order in Council" and that all words in ment and rational use of all kinds of paragraph "B " of the resolution after tele-communications, and this is the "served by" should be deleted and be correct body to approach and not the replaced by the following words, "„an committee charged with protecting the early application to the I.T.U. for interests of colonial and subject people. a—HO-Elate rnemh,grshio and that Manx Like the Attorney-General, I went to Radio shap_bg_a,uthorised by Tynwald the trouble of getting a list of the 24, to broadcast vti„..a Power sufficient to and immediately when you see that cover the United Kingdom, but not bT= there are eleven Afro-nation countries Yond." on this list and five communist coun- tries, you realise what would happen to Mr. McFee: Why not beyond ? any resolution that goes to them. Mr Kneale: Why not beyond ? I will Whether they agreed with it or not they tell you that in a minute. Now we were would. take the opportunity of trying to talking about an approach to I.T.U., it embarrass the British Government be- was also pointed out that the I.T.U. is cause this is what they are doing all the the body responsible for the inter- time, and this is why part two of the national allocation of wavebands. If we resolution is a dangerous one. I am not are to have any hope ef success with an .pared to agreejo any_approgn-being, approach to this body then we must made to them at this time. so I am pro- _ sink Caroline ourselves, and this is what asiag as a second Parl—af—Illy—amend=. we should have done before. If we are ment that all words in paragraph "B" going to try and convince them that we 6T—the resolution after "served by" are fully intending to support inter- should be deleted and replaced by the national agreements then we have got to following words: " an early application show and demonstrate it in this way. to the I.T.U. for associate membership. Mr McFee says why not beyond the The Governor: Under Standing Order boundaries of the United Kingdom— because the waveband that we are 82 a member may move only one operating on was allocated to the United amendment. Kingdom, acting on behalf of the Isle Mr Kneale: And it is only one amend- of Man, and the Channel Islands, for ment I am moving, sir. transmission within their own country

Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council. 1864 TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967 boundaries.. This here was issued for people's blindness. It was obvious broadcasting within the United King- throughout our meeting that the United dom, not within the Isle of Man. lkingdomia-fficials ‘Arere going flaTc7._ig=-la the moTions of di.scussion,_knowing Mr McFee: It has to be kept out of well what their answer would Ireland. agree it is time to stop talking and it is time to act, but I say let us act now Mr Kneale: And that is why I say we and sink Caroline, get that encumbrance can broadcast anywhere within the out of the road and tell Manx Radio to United Kingdom and the British increase their power. During the discus- Islands. Today I would say do not be sions on the petition to the Queen a carried away in sannorting this resolu- member said we should remember that tion on some mistaken idea of patriot- the Island has three legs to stand ism. Patriotism is not enough. Common- on. We should also take a look sense must prevail if we are going to at the three legs on our crest and we get anywhere •on this issue. We claim to will soon realise that they are running- -be the oldest parliament in the world, round in circles. Now we do nct want to even though Iceland disputes that. Let follow the legs and start running round us prove that we are not so senile that in circles to the United Nations or to we cannot think straight on this issue. anybody else. This is only delaying the Now the resolution, the amendment that issue. If it is action you want I have has been put forward by the Labour suggested the way by my amendment. Party, I feel gets us nowhere. I feel that If peop:e are determined to act and this is delaying matters and has come show our defiance or our intention of far, far too late. We are virtually on ho me rule and doubling-_ 1:TCr- the .brink of the extension by an Order this is the way to do it. Then if the,. in Council of the English Act to the Isle •Britis,h Government interferes_ then of Man. I feel that we can act today t r -domes tic without waiting to go through all the issues and_that .is the •time.-to-take it rigmarole of introducing the Bill when further._ we come back again, and all the delay involved, by passing a resolution of this The Governor: The hon. member for Court which • claims to be the supreme Ayre. body cf the legislature in this Island. Pass this today and ask them to extend Mr R. E. S. Kerruish: Your Excel- their Act to us by Order in Council. lency, anyone listening to certain re- The mover of the resolution, Mr Mac- marks made this morning would think Donald, as chairman of the Broadcast- that we are talking about an Island sub- ing, Commission and myself as vice- ject, impoverished and ground into the chairman are of one mind over the main dust by an unsympathetic and oppres- issue, that is, more Power for Manx sive United Kingdom Government. But •Radio. Where we differ is in our what do the many welcome visitors to methods of obtaining this, A point that our shores find ? Not only the thou- he has made during his speech is that sands that we welcome here. but the the United Kingdom authorities cannot many who have been brought here by realise that the Isle of Man is not part the particular debate that is going on of the United Kingdom; this point came in this hon. chamber today. They find a out strongly in our meeting with the prosperous and progressive Island. A post office officials. When we stressed bustling and expanding economy. A the point over and over again we were fully employed people. A people that told by one of their officials that we enjoy all the benefits of the welfare would find it difficult to convince them state that are handed out to the of that. There is no limit to some • populace by the United Kingdom—

Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council. TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967 1865 one of the grea_tesf industrial and earn- that they have had to do to honour, in mercial nations of the world. And inernational obligations into which they moreover why do they find this state of have entered, not only on their own be- affairs in this Island? Very largely in the half, hut on behalf of the United King- dom Government. Certain people in this first instance, due to the energy and the Island interpret it in another way, as resources of the Manx people them- the imposition on the Island of U.K. selves, but make no mistake, sir, a lot of it is due' to the fact that we have had criminal legislation. Now, sir, those dif- freedom to legislate for our own domes- ferences of opinion, that differing inter- tic affairs. Many aspects of our legisla- pretation, has led to the special sitting tion in that resect have been touched of this hon. Court, and various solutions on by previous speakers. but I need only have been put before us. One amend- mention our very favourable system of ment has been made by my hon. and taxation, which has attracted to our gallant friend and another is set out in shores, not only multitudes of new resi- part " B" of the resolution. Let me say dents but new industry. Factories that at the outset, sir, that I regard part "B" have been very dominant in expanding not only as inaccurate.- not only as our economy, and that are going to play illogical, but one of the most dangerous a great part in the future of this Island propositions that has ever been tabled in the years to come. Those are some of within the walls of this hon. Court. Now, the factors, sir, that have enabled this sir, it is inaccurate because it says very Island to keep pace in social progress clearly and without any ambiguity at with the United Kingdom. I think, sir, all, that it is the intention of the U.K. that it goes without saying that the administration to extinguish the rights people of this Island are behind the sen- of self-government in this Island. Dur- timents expressed in part "A" of Mt ing the brief time of which I have had MacDonald's resolution. They are all for the privilege of being a member of this retaining in our own hands our rights to hon. Court I do not think I ever heard make domestic legislation. This is ac- such a sweeping statement made as cepted. This is simply a statement of that, and yet in his opening remarks my fact. All history proves this. The United hon. friend. and he is a friend of mine, Kingdom admit it. Not only is it implied I am glad to say, and his supporters, the by their action over the years, but in hon. member for Rushen, Mr Simcocks, the oft quoted memorandum made to a member of the legal profession, a man the McDermott Commission on consti- whose ability I greatly admire, my dis- tutional reform they say "in the domes- tinguished namesake, have any one of tic field Tynwald legislates for the Isle those hon. members come forward with of Man." It is on the record. sir, so I am one shred of evidence to suonort this 100 per cent. behind part "A" of the sweeping statement? Not one single fact. resolution because I see it simply as a A few nebulous remarks. A few inci- reiteration of the existing position, as dents that took place ten, twenty, thirty it now is. That is what the Manx people years ago, but where is the-- believe; that is what the United King- dom accept, but, sir, it is only to be ex- The Speaker: The events of this last pected that over the years, over a cen- month. tury, an occasional time will arise when differences of opinion would occur as to Mr Kerruish: Where is the concrete the interpretation of what is and what evidence? Let Mr Speaker, sir, observe is not domestic legislation. Now that is the rules of this Court, as he should, and what has happened over the Marine, etc. give me a fair hearing. Where has one Broadcasting Bill. Members of the U.K. shred of evidence been forthcoming to Government interpret it as something substantiate that sweeping statement ?

Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council. 1866 TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST Et, 1967

Mr Irving: At the Home Office. cause I believe. if carried. it could rup- ture the very good relations which have MT Kerruish: I challenge the hon. existed for a very long time and at member who is interrupting me to fur- nish evidence of intentions of the present exist between the government United Kingdom Government. I chal- of the United Kingdom and the govern- lenge Mr Irving. I challenge him to pro- ment of the Isle of Man. The hon. mem- duce evidence to substantiate the state- ber for Rushen, Mr Sirricocks, questions ments made in part "B of the resolu- those good relations. My hon. namesake tion. It carmot be substantiated in my Mr Speaker, questions those relations, view, sir, otherwise it would have been but with the greatest respect I would done so by the hon. mover, by Mr Sim- sooner go with the hon. member for the cocks, or by the hon. Mr Sneaker. With- council, also a member cf this legisla- out further substantial and concrete ture for two clec:-.des, who is the head evidence being forthcoming I consider of our social services, who has put it on this part of the resolution completely record that he has found our relations inaccurate and without one shred of with their counterparts in the United foundation in fact. Now, sir, I said that Kingdom excellent, and in fact those I regarded this resolution as illogical. I relations by givire us very good treat- believe that is a factual statement be- ment on the financial asnect. That same cause as recently as February of this attitude was expressed, sir, by my hon. year this hon. court ,appointed a com- friend, the then chairman ot the mittee—a committee of this court, Finance Board, when speaking cf mat- consisting of some of its senior mem- ters relating to the Common Purse. bers to investigate the whole question They have found these relations excel- of our relationship, of our constitutional lent. and I would much sooner go with relationship with the United Kingdom, them, who have had actual dealings and make any suggestion they thought with their counterparts on the other fit as to how that relationship could he side and say that goad relations do improved. Now, sir, that committee has exist and although. I sir, have never had made a report. It has made a report the privilege, excenting on one occa- which contains some very wide sweep- sion, of ever being with a deputation ing proposals, but, before that report from this Island waitir', on menittr,.rs has even been considered by this hon. of the United Kinedom Gov2rnment, court, before the members of it, the can only say this, on a recent occasion very important members .of it, have had when I had the nriv:Iege to be co-opted an opportunity of explaining its recom- to a certain delegation I can simply mendations to this court, the hon. mem- say, for my own Dart, I fotind those ber wishes to throw it outside the win- people concerned, the officials of the dow and go right over the heads of the United Kingdom, very conscious of our members of this Tynwald-appointed needs. Very anxious to do all they can committee, and transfer the whole of to retain this Island, with its unique this question into the hands of the system of self-government, and its pros- United Nations. It is absolutely, not perous industries, they are anxious to only is it illogical, I Think it is a slight keep this as a viable, prosrerous and upon the dignity and upon the prestige progressive unit. Now, sir, anart from of this hon. court of which he and I have those considerations, I feel that from the privilege of being members. Now, the aspect of another impending event, sir, I regard it as a completely illogical there was never a time when it was move en that count and that count more important to preserve good rela- alone. I also said this is a dangerous. tions between our two governments and resolution. I say this is dangerous be- that, sir, is the possible, nay, I will go

Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council. TYNWALD COURT. AUGUST 8, 1967 1867 farther, the probable entry of the the shouting dies, the captains and, the United Kingdom into the European press kings depart, we will end up Economic Community. Now. sir, it may round the table talking to the represen- only be a passage of time, I feel sure tatives of the U.K. Government. Is this that in time the United Kingdom will kind of resolution that has been soon- .sored by the honourable member likely ,g,e into Europe and I think there is to lead to the kind of atmosphere that little doubt that if they go in we will will end in the conclusion that will be have to go with them. Even if we had to the benefit of this Island. the power to opt out. If we had the power to opt out, I feel to do so would Mr Kelly: Yes, of course. result in us becoming an isolated and impoverished island in the middle of Mr Kerruish: I think nothing can be the Irish Sea. But by the same token further from the truth. Our whole to go in without special arrangements future—the whole future of this Isle of being made might be equally disastrous. Man, is tied up with good and friendly Now. sir, this was the relations with the United Kingdom Government. Now, sir, at this point Mr Irving: We have been told--- may I touch upon the amendment moved by my honourable and gallant Mr Kerruish: You will have your friend, the member for Ramsey. This turn. You will have your turn. Now, is an in-between station and this move sir, when we reach that point as in to put it to the Secretariat of the Com- time we or our successors shall, it is monwealth Union or whatever the title no'c. to the United Nations that we will is. Now let us be quite frank about it, have to turn. It is not to the Secretariat gentlemen. this is being accepted by of the Commonwealth Relations office— :hose who originally supported part it as to the •Untited 1Kingdom, +to the "B" of Mr IVIaoDonald's resolution and Government of the United Kingdom why are they accepting Sir Henry's that we must look for those special amendment, because they know their considerations. Yes, the honourable own particular amendment faces defeat. member for Ramsey, Mr Kelly, may This is simply a half,way measure, so chuckle. This is going to be one of the that they will not suffer complete defeat grea,:est events in the history of the bui they are prepared to go anywhere world I suppose — certainty as far as so that they can say "We have not lost," U.K. and the Isle of Man is concerned, but where are they going? Now, sir, I but make no mistake it is not to the will openly confess. that I cannot tell Council of Europe, is not to the Com- you anything about this body to which monwealth Relations Office, it is not to :he hon. and gallant member wished to the United Nations, but to the United submit our affairs and I would rather Kingdom Government, I stress, that we gather, with the greatest respect to the must look for special considerations for one female member of this hon. Court. our very special requirements. that she is in a similar position. For, you see. she uses the term, "I gather" The Speaker: And you will learn a or • "I understand." Now, gentlemen., bitter lesson. Your Excellency, how many hon. mem- Mr Kerruish: Now. sir, I wish the bers of this Court know very much honourable Speaker would uphold the about this body? I freely admit I know dignity of his office and refrain from very little. Older, experienced members in:errupting a member in the course of like, the hon. IVIr Speaker, and maybe his speech. Now, sir, let us make no Sir Henry, could tell me quite a lot mistake about it. When the tumult and about it. but what is this hon. Court

Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council. 1868 TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967. asked to do by this amendment ? It is with Sir Henry simply to save the day. being asked to launch the ship of state, I am asking this hon. Court to behave this Isle of Man, upon completely un- as responsible citizens. We boast of our chartered seas. We know nothing at all heritage. Here we are launching out on about this body, I do not speak of them a completely unknown path, at the drop with disrespect but I know nothing of a hat. I didn't see the hon. and gal- about them and I want to know some- lant members' amendment—allow me to thing about them myself, as should finish Mr. MacDonald—until after half- every member of this hon. Court before past-ten this morning. There is no hurry we launch as I say, the ship of state, in this. Let us hear from this commit- on a completely unchartered and un- tee that is looking into the whole ques- known. ocean, as far as we are con- tion and then we will decide. That is cerned. And what is the urgency? What the duty of Sir Henry, I believe, to with- is the urgency, sir? There is no great draw this amendment and let the origi- urgency for this matter. Let us go back nal resolution—let it stand on its feet. to the matter I mentioned earlier on— Let it stand on its feet and see where the committee of Tynwald — are we we are, and I am satisfied it will be going to flout them again ? Where are defeated. Do not be deluded, I appeal these members of this committee? If I to the hon. members of this Court who was a member I would be on my feet do not belong to this extreme caucus of to-day and saying, "You have charged unreasonable nationalism. I regret that me with a duty of investigating— slip of the tongue, sir. Prior to that re- mark I had a most friendly nod from The 'Speaker: On a point of order, the hon. member, so I say, "Let us not Your Excellency, as chairman of that be led astray by this extreme caucus committee, this in. no way conflicts with and Jet us face facts." I hope the hon. the committee's duties. and gallant member, with the permis- sion of its hon. seconder, would with- Mr Kerruish: That is a matter of draw this. We have been sumnioned to opinion. consider the special resolution. Let us consider it. Let us not be side-tracked. Mr Simcocks; As a member I concur Let us in this down once and for all Your Excellency. and I say the way to handle this is to Mr Irving: As a member I feel it re- Ihrow it back to the committee that has presents the view of the committee. been appointed by this hon. Court. Let them report in due time. Let us de- Mr Kerruish; I am surprised to hear liberate with caution before we alter that, sir, that they have got together the whole course of the future oi this prior to, I don't know when the hon. Island, members did it, but they must have had a very quick get together and come to Mr MacDonald: Traa-dy-liooar. a very hasty conclusion on a matter of great moment. This is a matter that 'Mr Kerruish: Yes, "Traa-dy-liooar." I should be—the committee is investigat- am a Manxman. I am proud of it. Now, ing this matter, and they have investi- earlier this year, sir, and I am coming gated only very superficially at this back to my hon. namesake, the follow- stage? I go with Mr Speaker in this. I ing words fell from the 1:os of Mr feel they should have engaged the ser- Speaker: "No-one is .sroincr to say in this vices of a constitutional lawyer to have Court that we want independence. This gone into this in depth, before initiating would be a ridiculous assumption, but a report. Let alone now throwing their we do seek the maximum degree of in- report out of the window and going dependence that can be achevecl in our

Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council. TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967 1869 relationship with the United Kingdom!' into Liverpool is concerned. The Re- I go all the way with that, sir, and I public of Ireland for example have a believe the way to go all the way with subsidy, a deficiency payment paid on it is to consult with the United their cattle imported into the United Kingdom, with whom we have bee.n Kingdom. But they won't even listen to linked in the past and, make no mis- us. and I cannot see for the life of me take, we will be closely linked in the that all is so lovely in the garden. I future. This is the obvious approach. would say that the people who I repre- This is the well-tried road along which sent in the Sheading of Glenfaba are — the people of this Island have travelled and make no mistake about this-100 to increase economic and social pros- per cen.';, loyal to.the Crown. and to Her peri1y. In the resolution, sir, Tynwald Majesty the Queen, and we have no in- is rightly described as the oldest con- tention of seeking any change as far as tinuous democratic assembly in the that is concerned. The thought of com- world. I hope, Your Excellency, that plete independence would be neither in to-day, with the eyes of the world upon the interests nor the wishes of the us for a brief moment, that we will be people I represent. But I am not satis- worthy of that description, and that we fied that everything is lovely in the will display not only commonsense but garden and I do, as many other mem- political wisdom by rejecting part "B" bers of this Court, resent the fact that of the resolution and also all the other the wishes of the elected members of amendments. this hon. Court were treated in the way they were. For that reason I shall have Sir Henry Sugden: Your Excellency, the greatest pleasure in supporting the may I make a statement on what the amendment moved by the hon. and gal- hon. member for Ayre said? lant member for Ramsey, Sir Henry The Governor: The hon. member for Sugden. I feel, as I say, that while we Glenfaba .first. We can get the state- have no intention of going to any ex- ment before tea, we can get both these treme ends in this respect, we have got through. to make a protest and a very firm pro- test. I feel for one, that this is the best Mr Anderson: Your Excellency, it way to do it, and I will be happy to will not take mo very many minutes for support that when the time comes, me to say what I have got to say. I Your Exce:lency. had prepared a sricech. but all this Tofirld has been covered so many times The Governor; Now the hon. and gal- h:re lo-day that I do not intend wast- lant member for Ramsey, within the :ng the time of the Court going through framework of Standing Order 93 please. all the things that I have in mind. I am, Sir Henry Sugden: Yes, sir, I merely sir, delighted to hear :that all is so wish to state. Your Excellency, that I lovely and well in the garden, from my have no intention whatsoever of with- hon. and eloquent colleague from Ayre. drawing my amendment and so condon- I was not aware that so wonderful a ing my hon.. colleague's ignorance of a Utcola exis!-F...d. In fact on the contrary, very important Commonwealth body I was aware of a situation where we indeed. had anproached the United Kingdom Government over various matters with- Members: Hear, hear. out eetrrz the satisfaction of the people who have thrown off all loyalty to the Mr Corkish: Your Excellency, I am Crown. ard I ouote from the example going to oppose the resolution. and I flat we are treated as a foreign coun- am going to oppose the amendment. I t:v sa far as the importation of cattle have heard quite a lot of speakers-

Application of United Kingdom egislation by Order in Council. 1870 TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967

speaking. The hon. member for Rushen, will: on reading the debates—if they Mr Simcocks — the eagle eye of 10 ever think it worthwhile—imagine that Downing Street—Wilson and te:egrams. something Very, very serious had I am just wondering whether the hon. occurred and that, the Isle of Man mid member has eot an obsession against the United Kingdom were at one Mr Harold Wilson. another's throats. This question has been magnified out of all proportion to Mr Simcocks: If so, I am in very good its importance and it is being used by company, Your Excellency. what might be called "Mirrers,ujo" arid Mr Corkish: He wanied to get away by financial ihteretts. It ha S alsO be- horn the Common Purse, .and now this come the excuse for some nationalist is another get out. It makes me wonder propaganda. It is unfortunate that that when we get delegates, members of a kind of thing should happen. First Of delegation going from the Isle of Man all, in looking at the words Of the resb- to meet these people at the Home Office lution, we see a reference to a "self- etc., when they come up against people governing democracy." Now I would who have got an obsession to start with suggest, sir, that the Isle of Man is not —they should not go on these commis- what is generally considered to be a sions. They would not appoint a Labour self-governing democracy. We undoubt- Party Commission to go -to the Conser- eily have a limited measure of self- vative Government, they would appoint government, and quite a wide and use- Conservatives. Why don't you appoint ful measure of self-eiovernment and fa a few Labour people who can talk the responsibility for otir oWn affairs. If we same language, and then you would get want more power and more liberty, mis- somewhere? I am amazed at the opposi- representation is not the honest way to tion, the people wanting U.D.I. Now get it, or the test way. And I do suggest they have withdrawn. They are talking there has been a ■Yood deal of misrepre- about Caroline — Caroline, because the sentation in what has been said this north of the Island was getting a few morning. Then again there is the refer- vegetables bought and one thine and ence to the Marine Broadcasting another, so we must support her. I am Offences Act as be:ng domestic policy. in full agreement with the hon. mem- The domestic not-icy part of this matter ber for Ayre, Mr Kerruish. It should is purely incidental and is a very, very have been seen off long ago, and let's minor part, Thera is no doubt whatever get back to negotiations with the that the action which the United King- British Government. dom Government, must take is bound to impinge on domestic policy. if what Mr Bolton: Your Excellency, although they are doing is to achieve its purpose I did not hear a:1 that the hon. member and we have all been well aware for for Ayre said, I was delighted with that many: many, many months that it was part that I did hear. I find it interesting the intention of the United Kingdom to note that there is no reference what- Government to rerhove the pirate radio ever to the Marine Broadcasting ships. They were under international Offences Act in the resolution that is obligation to do just that. Then again we before the Court. There is reference to find oureelves referred to later as "a Orders in Council. and I wonder what colonial and subject people." We say they Orders are referred to- I can only think protect the interests of colonial and sub- of one Order to which exception has ject peoples, and for that reason we are been taken, and it might have been as asking them to protect us. Now what well if that Order had been referred to is the implication? Only that we are in detail. I am ratite sure that posterity a colonial and subject people. Now we

Application of United Kingdom egislation by Order in Council. TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967 1871 are not, in the sense that those words of the Island would have been had it are usually used, a colonial and sub- not been for the action of the United ject people. Then again—another mis- Kingdom Government in making use of representation. These things have been the Isle of Man, not only for many thou- referred to be:ore, I agree, but I think sands of internees. but Army, Navy, Air that they require to be reinforced. The Force, all based in the Isle of M.an and to U.K. Government has never suggested a great extent, at our request. It has been or thereatened that it intended to ex- suggested to me, "of course this was to tinguish the rights of self-government their benefit." I don't believe that for vested. in Tynwald. At no point has any one minute. They could have found lots such suggestion or threat been uttered of places to do these things without at all, and for this even to be on record coming to the Ise of Man. But there is in our debates to my mind is iniquitous no doubt that our association, whether it was done for our benefit or not, was of The Attorney-General: Hear, hear. very considerable benefit, and the Island was never so prosperous as it Mr Bolton.: It gives entirely the wrong was during those five or six years. impression to future generations read- Deemster Kneale: Mutual benefit. ing our reports. Then again, we must realise—and we have never disputed— Mr Bolton: It was undoubtedly a that the Parliament at Westminster has, mutual benefit. I do realise, sir, that and has had for a very long time, the many of us have felt that we have not right to legislate for the Isle of Man. been fairly treated in the matter of Now that is not dispu:ed. The fact that Manx Radio. This has nothing whatever they have not done it for very many to do, however, with Caroline or the years, is a measure of the tolerance Marine Broadcasting Offences Bill. It they have shown to the Isle of Man.. But may well have been useful for bargain- when it comes to dealing with interna- ing purposes, but we have found it im- tional obligations, then I feel they must possible to strike a bargain. We can go take the line they have taken, and I on negotiating, but is this a gocd reason have said so when the matter of the for suggesting that we ask a committee Marine Broadcasting Offences Bill was of the United Nations to protect our before the L..egislativ,N Council. Further- interests ? It does not seem so to me. In more, accordng to records. I find that any case it is well known that anyone the Privy Council has for many, many who interferes in a fight between a man years, been the last resort of Manx and his wife is likely to come out .-.goole as the guardian of their liber- rather badly, and I would imagine that ties. So that we want to cut adrift from if this were referred to such a commit- all that. The United Kingdom Govern- tee, the committee would probably come ment, we acknowledge, is responsible out worse in the end in the argument. through the Governor. for the mainten- Surely .cur relationship with our friends ance of law and 0-.7.2er in the Isle of in the United Kingdom is not such as to Man. What are the b:neflts that we re- call for an anneal to Venezuela, Mada- ceive by our very close association. with gascar, Poland, Ethiopia, India, Tunisia, the United Kingdom? I suggest there and— as the Attorney-General said, I are very, very many which cannot be think, thank God, Australia. Many, thrown away lightly. We have un- many of those countries whose names I doubted benefits in our educational have mentioned have ideas of freedom system. We have undoubted benefits in and democracy that are quite alien to our health services. and when I think the views which are held in the Isle of back to the years between. 1940 and Man and in the United Kingdom and 2946. I begin to wonder what the state have been for many centuries. The hon.

Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council. 1872 TYNWALD COURT: AUGUST 8, 1967 member for Peel, Mr MacDonald, said The Speaker: They created the diffi- Manxmen will , despise us if we don't cully. pass this resolution. I suggest, sir, that they will despise us forever if we do. MT Bolton: _That is what You say. The Furthermore, he did refer in an aside, hon. member itay that rejection of this to appointed members of the Legislative resolUtion will result in stalemate. Com- plete rejection will do more to establish Council, as if the.' should be completely what we have been seeking and in fact, ignored. Almoinied or not. I would point we have appointed a committee out to him that I was elected on four to obtain — better relations with occasions and sat in the House of Keys the United Kingdom Government. In for 15 years and there is no question but February of 1967 this Court resolved that I still feel 1 represent a great many "That a Select Committee. Of Tynwald of the people of the Isle .cf Man, even be appointed and that this committee though I am not now sitting in the be instructed to examine the Govern- House of Keys. Now the hon. member ment's relations with the Government of the 'Council, Mr McFee, has moved of the United Kingdom and to make an amendment. I suggest, sir, that we recommendations as to the steps, if any, should ignore it completely. He suggests which could usefully be taken to im- that we now throw out this resolution, prove them." What of it now? Is this hut that we substitute something else, calculated to improve them? I doubt it. and go and say, " Will you please start The hon. m.ember, Mr Simeocks, did ay negotiating again ? " We had our oppor- that the power of the United Kingdom tunity. We were told what would hap- Government is only used after full con- pen. We had the opportunity to pass our sultaticn and that this had not taken own legislation and, I suggest, foolishly place in this particular matter. I think threw it out. What is the good of accept- anyone who knows all that has gone on ing a suggestion that we go back again? in this matier must know that very full He then says rejection means stalemate. consultation, in fact a surfeit of consul- I don't quite know what he means by tation, has taken place abut this mat- that. There is no doubt that the United ter. Then he goes on to ask a lot of Kingdom has the right to legis- foolish queslions, when will the United late in this matter. The United Kingdom impose their taxation? When Kingdom preferred us to do it ourselves, will they remove the birch? Now I sug- but insisted that it must be done. Some gest that when they threaten to do these opposition, I know, was engendered im- things I will be standing shoulder to mediately by that very situation. shoulder with those who oppose them. Caroline has taken great pains to in- I would then feel I had something to gratiate itself with the Isle of Man. fight about. To-day there is .nothina to Despite the fact that we know these fight about. I must_ say that I was chair- stations are a thorn in the flesh to the man of the Broadcastina Commission United Kingdom Government, we refuse until December last, and I know the to help them in their difficulty and try very considerable difficulties with which and turn their difficulty to our advan- the hon. member for Peel is faced. age. and at the same time we go con- am fully aware of all that has gone on stantly requesting their help in our dif- regarding a Manx Radio station of ficulties. The hon. member for Glen- reasonable power. We do feel frustrated faba has referred to one of them in con- but .again. I sugaest, that this is no way nection with cattle. Now - does it make to deal with that particular problem. I sense that we should treat them in the listened to Mr Speaker this morning and way suggested in this resolution and at I felt that if his speech had been made the same time ask them favours? at in the last election it would

Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council. TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967 1873 have been a very good one. It was a re- earlier on, sir, that it was very good markably good exhibition of shadow election istuff and mizht well have got a boxing. We have a dispute on what is few votes. However, he did refer to really a very small issue by comparison the Common Market, and that reference with very many issues- with which we was made in order to give the impres- have to deal. He quoted a speech made sion that we were being forced inilo a at Ihe opening of Parliament. Now we position that we did not want. To say know this, that in zeneral terms pro- the least of it, that suggestion is mis- mises— leading. I think every member of the Cour:: is aware that talks are proceed- The Speaker: On a point of order, ing on the matter of the Common Mar- Your Excellency, I quoted no such ket. The Treaty of Rome remains as it speech. was, and certainly the position of the Mr lloltOrl: At the Commonwealth United Kingdom is still far from Parliamentary gathering, I am sorry. definite. The posi:ion of the Isle of Man Now promises of freedom and constittt- in relation to the United Kingdom is :tonal develOpmerit must, of necessity, still far from definite. It is quite true to be made in general terins. But they say that there is no denni:e answer that iannot be made or allowed to result in anyone can give on the auestions relat- ainarehy, And if anyone is to interpret ing to the Common Market. No answer all the speeches that are made about is available-- freedom of democracy literally, every The Speaker: Who is shadow boxing Man will please himself. Every man will now? ruIi hi S own litlie radio station. I sug- gest. sir, that all this freedom, all this Mr Bolton: I am not shadow boxing, democracy, must be chantlel:ed, and the sir, I am telling the truth. The hon. control of it is what irks a great many member, Mr Speaker, was endeairodring people who want to do what they want to influence the Court by suggesting without regard to how it affects their that the ogre was there. I am not saying next-door neighbour. This is what we that we may not find that we have very are proposing in this resolution. Mr little option in the matter of the Com- Speaker's contribution to the debate, sir. mon Market. At the moment we cannot I believe, was worthy of a much better say so, and any member of the delega- occasion. He says that this practice of tion who visited London with me two imposing Orders in Council will in- or three weeks ago will know that that crease if we don't stop it. He knows as is the truth. well as I do that there is no practice of imposing Orders in Council, and over The Speaker: I would accept the word very many years this is the first time of the chairman of Executive Council, that any Order in Council will have Your Excellency. on the matter. been imposed in the Isle of Man with- out our consent—never mind our con- Mr Bolton: Then of course, another su•tation. Now from this he draws the one sir, our oil rights were sequested- conclusion that the practice of imposing that is another one that has been Orders in Council will, increase if we dragged in. He then admits that after don't stop it. To my mind it is not a negotiations we were able to obtain a right conclusion. He has no authority share. not only of our oil rights, but of whatever for that kind of statement. He all the oil rights round the British Isles, then has t he audacity to refer to be shared in the same way as we to the strength of truth. I ask share Common Purse receipts. Now is you, sir, after that statement, to there anything wrong with that? . Is refer to the strength of truth. I did say there any reason why we shouldn't have

Application of United Kingdon legislation by Order in Council. 1874 TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967 had to ask for it? We got it. It is no Isle of Man, and 1 feel I must refute good coming along with these stories it. I am quite sure that the members as a basis for supporting this kind of who are supporting the resolution are resolution. We did get a reference too not only making the Island and its to certain dictators at Whitehall, and legislature a laughing stock for the then he exempted Sir Austin Strutt and world, but also for the majority of Sir Charles Cunningham. 1 know in. the people in the Isle of Man. past 20-odd years of one other who Was not very well disposed to the Isle of The Attorney-General: Hear, hear. Man, but what others has Mr Speaker Mr Bolton: The people do not treat had to deal with who were antagonistic. this question seriously at all. I want to say, sir, that I am opposed to the resolu- The Speaker: Quite a few when you tion in toto, and to any amendment were in the wilderness. which may have been proposed except perhaps the one part of the amendment Mr Bolton: During the time I was in by :he hon. member, Mr Kneale, to the wilderness, sir, which I readily add the words "and ask the United admit, I think Sir Charles Cunningham Kingdom Government to apply the was the man with whom you would Order." I feel, sir, that we can go on deal at the Home Office — and he is amending, and amending and amending exempted by Mr Speaker. The big ques- in order to defeat resolutions, and I tion, sir, in my mind, of all this matter think it is much more desirala'_e to come is, who do we think we are? out and defeat them rather than try to Mr Irving: That is what I wonder and save them. I shall certainly vote against all the resolutons and all the when I hear you speak. amendments. Mr Bolton: Exactly. And it is high time that some of us realised what is The Governor: The Court will now for the good of the Isle of Man and not adjourn for 15 minutes for tea. endeavouring to make names for them- Mr Crowe: Your Excellency, I think selves. The gen.:lemon who are so most has been said as far as to-day's anxious to pick a quarrel with the resolution is concerned and I don't want United Kingdom and who are posing .o repeat a lot, but I would try to make as patriots, are the enemies of this one or two valid facts which strike me. Island. They are a menace to the fhere is no doubt that in. the Island at Island, and I say this in all seriousness, he present time an awful lot of people they will be execrated by coming are worried, and this is a genuine generations if they have their way. I -,vorry, because there seems to be a suggest, sir, that the hon. and gallant feeling that there are some members member for Castletown might well in our Legislature who would like to Study his history books and consider break away and go it alone. I think one whether we are not freer than those or two members who spoke this morn- Manxman who lived here prior to 1765. ing did give some indication that that The Governor: Are you drawing to a might be a fact. Some members have close? said that we don't get all we wish from Big Brother, It might not be a good MT Bolton: Yes, sir. thing, but by and large I am sure that The Governor: The tea is getting cold. Big Brother keens a very watchful eye, and Big Brother is always very helpful Mr Bolton: I just want to say this. when we go to interview Big Brother. sir, that it has been suggested that this On all the occasions I have been to the action is desired by the people of the Home Office—we admittedly have not

Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council. TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967 1875 always goi *hat We rtSked for—but the Mr MacLeod: That is a lot of good, to indications are there, and ant Sure that the general farmer, that, we can rely on those indications that the well-being of the Isle of Man is their Mr MacDonald: Common services. concern. Now what is happening at the , - Mr .Crowe: Just a moment, I am just „ present dine? I don't want to go into starting. We have the right and . we Radio Caroline on the (She part, and make use of this right—we saY it is. a Manx Radio—that has all been men- right, but it is a gift at the moment. We.: tioned this afternoon, time and ante have got potato inspectors. As you in6/ again. I want to look at the present. we are building up in the Isle of Man. an What is happening at the moment? exporting industry, I think it is worth What is our poSition as far as the at the moment somewhere about United Kingdom is concerned? We have £90,000, exporting seed potatoes. This nationalists in the Island—I must re- is a growing industry and we are proud.. peat this — we have all had a letter of L. We have at the moment four in, from nationalists who want to break spectors. These inspectors can go to away. They want to rule the Island. Courses in the United Kingdom at no Now then. would a person earning in cost to the Isle of Man and be ."genned- the teen§ of pounds a week buy a Rolls up'' an their work, and we find it is Royce withOut first going into the cost very beneficial—at no cost to us. We get break of running the car ? Would we free advice from all the statutory bodies . away and not first of all look into what —the Milk Marketing Board, all the dif- conditions we would have to put up ferent things, all the questions we ask with if we were :eft on our own—and I are answered, and we get their advice am saying if we were left on our own, free. We are also responsible in the isle to be able to go it alone. These are of Man for the fisheries. Now then, the serious matters. They want deep con- herrings caught in the Isle of Man by sideration and I think if they could be United Kingdom boats—the subsidy is voiced it would be a help to quite a tel refundedto us from the United King- - of people. An awful lot have spoken to dom Government. That subsidy comes. me and they say. "Is what you are going to quite 3 lot of money. If there. waS:no.. to debate in Tynwald on Tuesday subsidy granted to those boats fishing .. breaking away from England just be- in our waters, our kipper industry cause Caroline is a pirate and we don't would finish. That is of benefit to the. wish to be rid of it?" They are not Isle Of Man. We have the benefit too of sure maybe of their facts, but I can the fisheries protection vessels. -You tell you a few facts and I wou:d like to note the other day there was a trawler do that to the Court now—what benefits poaching in prohibited waters— , we do receive from the United King- dom. These benefits might not continue, Members: Oh no. and I am sure they would not continue if we broke away. At the moment, Mr Crowe: It is a fact: I am Your Excellency, I sit on the Board of staling facts, what we get. We get this-- Agriculture as most of you know and I free. I understand this boat makes fre-- : have had a list drawn up of the bene- quent trips into the Isle of Man. It' fits to the Board off Agriculture or the comes when we ask it to come. H it is benefits that the agriculturalists of the diverted from one, of its ,own. trips round.,-. Isle of Man receive from the United the United Kingdom, it costs about.' Kingdom. First of all we receive all 21,000 to divert it. Here is where I am press notices, all advice on formulating going to give the only .figures in what I schemes, acts. etc., at no cost whatso- am going to say this afternoon., Ii•think,.., ever to the Isle of Man. this is worth at least. ,to the Isle of

Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council. - 1876 TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967

Man, £5,000—this fishery protection Mr Callister: It is. vessel. Veterinary investigation services —no we benefit here too. We send all The Governor: It is relevant in that our samples of any animal in bad the motion considers that the interests health, if anything happens to an ani- of the Isle of Man would be best served mal—their investigation service is at by the submission of a request to a our disposal, and we make use of it. It committee of the United Nations, and would cost us at least £5,000 if we had anybody knowing that committee would to do it ourselves. know that a break with the parent coun- try is certainly likely to figure in their Mr MacLeod: Well why don't we do recommendations. it ourselves? Mr Crowe: That is true, sir, I think Mr Crowe: We have at the moment it even comes into the secondary resolu- faciiities which are offered and we have tion really. But if our fat stock was them for nothing. stopped, and I think at the moment fat stock from any Commonwealth country Mr MacLeod: And the stuff is rotten going into the United Kingdom cer- when it gets there and they cannot tainly goes in without paying anything, analyse it. would be a Commonwealth country if we broke away? At the Mr Crowe: We haven't sent you yet, moment it is a 20 per cent. barrier for sir. (Laughter.) If we broke away, I other countries who put fat stock and am just saying if—we export into the various other articles into the United United Kingdom at least £350,000 worth Kingdom. If that happened to the Isle of fatstock per year. There are some of Man, if it happened, it would cost things, as the hon. member for Glenfaba us-- mentioned, which we are not satisfied with. I agree with that. A few years ago Mr MacLeod: What about the eggs the hon. member for the Council, Mr that come here at 2s, a dozen? Radcliffe, was in London on this subject and he was told, "When you have an Mr Crowe: It would cost us £62,000 abattoir and you are killing your beasts to export our livestock. These are just and sending carcase meat to the United one or two things that I am bringing Kingdom, make application again, and up at random. There are many other we will certainly consider paying you things whereby they are helpful to us. a subsidy as we do for the Irish meat." I thought some of the members would Now that is by and large what was said. have mentioned education. It was men- At the moment most of our fat stock tioned, but it was not taken to a logical goes on the hoof and no ITish stock conclusion. At the moment, and I think going on the hoof is paid any subsidy these are the ifigures given to me by the at the immediate time. We have another chairman of the Board of Education at export, it may not be so large, but we budget time when I asked him what have exported—we have had to estimate benefit the Isle of Man received—of over this figure—about £10,000 worth of 100 of our young people who go to train- flowers into the United Kingdom. You 'ng colleges in England, 67—the cost of may say it is nothing, but if there was 67 of those young people is paid for a little tariff struck up against it, it by the United Kingdom Government. I would certainly be an awkward thing admit they are paid, just the same, for to overcome. young people from Northern Ireland and from, other parts, but if we broke Mr Simcocks: Your Excellency, on a away would we receive that help? That point of order, is a break with Britain is not all the cost, because those of our before the Court? young people who go to universities and

Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council, TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967 1877 colleges, they too benefit because of the has come forward with facts and figures. money paid into the Department of There have been people saying that this Education and Science through the is not relative to the Isle of Man, let's University Grants Committee, and that go it alone as far as the Common Purse does help our young people quite con- is concerned, we could do this, we could siderably. J won't go over—although I do that—but they have never given us had some notes relative to the subject figures and facts to prove that we could mentioned by the hon. member of the find the money ourselves. At the Council, Mr Nivison. We get quite a lot moment we receive, I will go on the year of help from the Health Services when we had our last aggregate or last working out of figures, when we paid The Speaker: They get considerable 2.68,000 for the collection of £3,250,000. help too. We paid out at a 'rate of 1.78 per cent. for the collection to be made, 1.78. Now Mr Crowe: Admittedly, admittedly— some said, "let's be like the Channel but they don't send all their very ill Islands, let's collect our own." Jersey people to the Isle of Man to be has been doing this for many, many treated— years. They have been collecting ail The Speaker: Only 500,000 at risk. their own and they have the know-how. Mr Crowe: We send our very ill The Governor: This is becoiniing people to the United Kingdom, to be irrelevant. treated by specialists. Admittedly, when there is any person from the United Mr Crowe: In so far that if we have Kingdom in the Isle of Man and they to collect our own it would cost us, going fall ill, naturally we take them under on Jersey's figures, 2.82 per cent, it our wing and do what we can for them. would cost us somewhere between But, we receive a benefit. To our em- £90,000 and £100,000 to collect the ployment division we get quite a lot of revenue which is now collected for us help, quite a lot. I have a whole list for £58,000. But there is more to be here. Quite a lot of help is handed out to taken into consideration than that. If the Isle of Man and we haven't got to we broke away and went on our own, reciprocate it. I don't know if I should what would happen to our tourist in- mention this, but I will mention it. War dustry? Many, Many members of this Pensions—admittedly the United King- Court have said we have lost this, we dom is in control, but they do pay all have lost that, we have lost the other our war pensions. We do supply an office port—now our only port seems to be and a staff, but that is all paid from Liverpool. We put about 7,000 or 8,000 the United Kingdom. In a questionaire people on the Liverpool landing stage in sent out to most Boards in the Isle of about two hours in certain week-end Man—all Boards I think—quite a while days of the year. Now then, facilities ago, the answers given were that, by would have to be found for those people and large, all these Boards benefitted, to be examined and go through customs. some considerably, some to a. smaller Mr MacLeod: The E'nglish government degree, from being in touch with the pays for that. United Kingdom and being helped by them. Now I must refer to this: it has Mr Crowe: English government pays been mentioned once, and when I put for that? Right. Two years ago the Steam forward the report of the Common Packet Company were asked to run Purse Committee a year or so ago, I did charter trips from Llandudno to Dublin. touch on it, but I must touch on it again They were told that when they came because this is something that we do back from Dublin there were no facili- depend on at the moment—and no-one ties at Llandudno and if they wished to

Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council. 1878 TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967

i-un the trips they would have to pro- think it will be to our benefit and I .. Vide the .facilities. That is what they think it would be to the benefit to the were told: The trips didn't eventually future of the Island. • Lake place: naturally. If we had to pay Mr Callieter: Your Excellency— • Liverpool landing stage fees for finding space for the cars which now come to The Governor: Before you speak, the Isle of.,Man to be exan-i:ned, take would hon. members who still wish to into consideration what it would cost. speak be self-denying and reduce the did state a year ago that at Dover they leng h of their speeches if possible? made preparations for four acres space Mr Canister: I was going to say that far cars to be examined—just parking at the beginning, sir. A great deal of space, for .E.2 million. That may not be what I would have said has been more relevant but still, these things would be eloquently said by other members of the Very costly for the Isle of Man, don't let Court ,and I think it would be.invidious us. lose sight of it. We have got to be of me to impose myself on you to repeat very careful. We are here for the good those views. I would like just to give government of the Isle of Man. Up to my impressions of what I have heard . the moment I think the Isle of Man and and know about this. Among the the United Kingdom have worked well speeches to-day the hon. and gallant together, admittedly there have been member for Ramsey. 'Mr Sugden—let us differences, and I think those differences stick to Caroline—and he went on to should be ironed out. But I think by refer, I think, to the grocers who were getting together is a better way to iron selling groceries to the ship. Now from them out, rather than go over the head that point of view I would say that since ••of the English Government and try to we are a part of the Bri.tish Isles, we bring in someone — the names of the are in fact acting detrimentally to the countries, sitting on that committee Imperial Parliament by doing so. We are which were given by the Attorney- not being loyal to the British Perna- General this morning—it looks to me, I inent or to H.M. the Queen. don't know how it looks to other mem- Mr MacDonald: Question. bers, that the English Government would have been needled as far as pos- Mr Canister: I would like to suggest sible. We might have got some help, but to the hon. member for Peel when he it would have been a pleasure for some says, "question"— .of those countries to needle the United .Kingdom. Now then, legfslation- Mr MacDonald: Not being loyal to domestic legislation. It has been said the Queen ? this morning that other things could happen. I am not the only one who is The Governor: Kindly do not delay looking into the future. It was said, it the hon. member. seemed to be implied by some members, that domestic legislation as far as the Mr Canister: What my hon. friend Isle of Man was concerned, was immi- overlooks is that in regulations relative nent as far as the United Kingdom Gov- to Insular Government the words the ernment was concerned. I think that is Crown" include Her Majesty's Govern- absolute nonsense. I certainly don't be- ment in the United Kingdom. And when lieve it is true. I think it has always you are loyal to Her Majesty, you are been the desire of Her Majesty's Govern- loyal to Her Majesty's Government. And ment to be helpful to the Isle of Man when you are disloyal to Her Majesty's and I am sure if we work with them Government, you are disloyal to Her that desire will be always there, and I Majesty. Now please get that into your

Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council. TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967 1879 heads. Don't forget that, because those not really freedom at all. It is really a are the regulations between the Imperial licence to do what they please—anarchy Parliament and ourselves. I submit that and illegal competition with other condoning the operations of pirate people. Does the hon. member suggest radio, which includes the evasion of that the proprietors of Caroline have taxation on fabulous ill-gotten gains, and by rejecting the courteous and any interest in the Isle of Man? Not the proper requests from the United King- slightest, not the slightest. I would just dom Government to co-operate by pass- like also to mention something with ing the Marine Broadcasting Offen.cas regard to the United Kingdom. The Isle Bill, this Court has been disloyal to of Man is in a unique position. It is not Her Majesty and her government. I statutorily a part of the United King- would like to refer to this question of dom, but it is part of the British Isles, domestic policy. Every member of this which is a much closer relationship than Court knows full well that the United that of a colony. And a colony has never Kingdom has assumed obligations in been given the 'rights of home rule that the international sphere to put an end we have had. Lt has been stressed and to transmissions of the offshore told to you before that we have, apart stations, obligations which Her Maj- from the ultimate control of the British esty's government are determined to Government in international affairs and honour, and which themselves derive so long as we are not doing something from the need to secure and maintain to the detriment of the United Kingdom, orderly application for the use of radio we have absolute home rule and we frequences. Then there were other have never been denied anything. For remarks foom the bon. and gallant instance, matters affecting defence, member for Castletown -- bring Caro- Common Purse, Post Office telegraph line ashore. Is this loyalty to Her and wireless services, the mercantile Majesty and her government ? A pro- marine, copyright, civil aviation, car- fessor of law speaking on radio yester- riage by air, extradition—and I am a day referred to this attitude of this Manxman and proud of it. I don't want government as a Ruritanical farce, and to lose the measure of home rule that if we were to proceed any further it we have got. We have got the best of would amount to treason. both worlds, and what we are doing is antagonising the Imperial Parliament The Speaker: It is surprising the and- we are educationally, socially, in- types you get on radio. dustrially, inevitably part of the family Mr Callister: A professor of law which of the British Isles. If we want to lose you have advocated yourself — you, our home rule, and this is where I see yourself. . the danger, if we want to lose this Par- liament and if you all want to be out of Mr MacDonald: Not that one. (Laugh- a job, then carry on. Finally, Your Ex- ter.) cellency, it is submitted that you don't want TWA. First of all you are pre- Mr Callister: You yourself advocated tending that you don't want Caroline. If we get a professor of government law. you don't want Caroline itself, what you He was speaking last night. The hon. do want is Caroline brought to the member for Castletown again referred Island, as the hon. member for Castle- to human rights and freedom being town has said, as a commercial radio threatened. I have mentioned this station to advertise the Isle of Man to before. I rather sense that what is - bring visitors here. You needn't deny it. termed "freedom" by the extremist but vociferous minority in this Island is Mr MacLeod: Who wants, who wants?

Application of United Kingdom legislation b.y Order in Council, • IAS() TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967

Mr Callister: Please be quiet. You other hand, if they were not successful have had too much to say already. You and they managed to row back to the want to defy the British Government, Island again, the President and of course, Mr Heath, might decide to apply Mr MacLeod: I do not. sanctions to the Isle of Man. And what would happen to us then? I fail to see Mr Callister: You want to take away that any good reason has been made out. the power and the right of the British believe that the Isle of Man has been Government to legislate for the Isle of made a laughing stock, that this mid- Man. That is what you mean by what summer madness will fade away and you say in your resolution, and then an that we will settle down to the normal, investigation into the intention of the stable government of the Isle of Man, -United Kingdom administration to ex- for one feel that this is a very danger- tinguish the rights of self-government ous move and I think it is rather an vested in Tynwald. What you really offensive and quite illegitimate request want is that you want to pass any legis- that we should have been called here lation you like, as the hon. member of today to discuss this business. I hope the Council has said, any old thing that the Court will see through all this. I will provide money from drugs to pros- would like to say, instead of titution, anything at all so long as you making the speech I have made, can make money: and this has been that I do endorse what Mr Bolton has going on for the oast seven years. Then said, the hon. member of the Council, I have the Speaker of the House of Keys, and the Attorney-General, and Mr Ker- a man who holds such a dignified posi- ruish for lAyre. and I do hope this Court tion: referring to the British Govern- will have the sense not to go into the ment as prostituting their authority. dangerous position of annoying and up- What can we expect from an intelligent seAing and antagonising not only Her government in England, who own this Majesty the Queen, but Her Majesty's Isle of Man, when our Speaker gets up Government. and charges them with prostituting their authority? I really cannot resist this Mr Moore: Your Excellency, we have sir, but I feel that my honourable friend heard quite a lot of elociuent speeches from Peel—he is a great friend of mine here to-day, and I think we have heard really—.I feel he has been so interested quite a lot about broadcasting. But we and excited by the Viking Festival that have got to get down to earth, and let he, I can quite imagine or envisage him us keep our feet firmly on the ground, grow:hg his perennial beard and dress- certainly the United Kingdom Govern- ing in his Viking regalia, assuming the ment can enforce this Order in Council office of Admiral of the Fleet of Viking on this Island here. We cannot get away rowing boats, sailing up the Thames from that fact. But what I am concerned escorted by his Commander-in-Chief, with here is that we have a nationalist Lt.-Col. Spina11 and his 50-strong Army. organisation and there are quite a lot to lay seige to Parliament and compel of people in this Island, especially in them to surrender. Of course, there South Douglas, who I hapnen to repro- to welcome them would be President de rent, who are very alarmed and scared Gaulle, Mr Ian Smith and Mr Nabarro. that all we have attained, not only If by -any chance they did compel Par- through government but through trade 1:ament to surrender then Mr Harold unionism and N.A.L.G.O. etc., and all Wilson and Mr Heath would be incar- the reciprocity between Civil Servants cerated in the Tower of London. Mr coming over here, and also the fact that Nabarro would then be made Prime our boys and girls in England get help Minister, and the hon. member for Peel, by the English Government with regard Governor of the Isle of Man. On the to their education. I remember a case

Application of•United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council. TYNWALD COURT. AUGUST El, 1967 1881

just after the war where a friend of families and educating their children in mine came over, a young fellow, and I this country. Let us be serious and look was anxious to do something for him forward not only to our happy relation- and the Manx Government, all they ship with England, but I am going to offered him was about two half-days a fupport the Labour Party resolution. week for rehabilitation. I wrote to the Let us keep the door open. Do we want Minister of Labour at that time, we had to ge: Biafra and all these other people the MacDonald Government in, and they who are slaughtering one another to gave that boy £180 a year and free edu- legislate for us? Certainly not. Our re- cation at Salford Technical College, so lationship, our goodwill and the pros- I would say all these erroneous ideas of perity and welfare of this Island depend how they have treated the Isle of Man on our alliance and our relationship is a lot of hogwash. I would like to feel with England and don't forget that. If that this Court to-day is going to soothe you are going to go it alone, you will the alarm and fear that has been among have your own customs to deal with. quite a lot of responsible people especi- You will also do away with the Common ally in Douglas here, in the fact that Purse, also with regard to teachers' some idiot or organisation would think salaries and that sort of thing, you will of going it alone outside the sphere and have to have a scale of your own here realm of England. would certainly in the Isle of Man and it won't work. have had something to say if these same Any man who can vote for this resolu- people would have objected to conscrip- tion here would be against the best in- tions in wartime, but they accepted that. terests of every man, woman and child There were no petitions went forward. in this Island. I find I have got here I supported the opposition with regard from iViec Vannin, "If a nation cannot to the Marine Broadcasting Offences, sand up for its rights and freedom, it etc., but .I did so for one purpose only, deserves to be stamped out by Winston because I thought we were premature in Churchill" (Laughter.) I seem to recol- passing legislation here while the third lect another quotation from this same reading in England had not passed and gentleman when he ordered the troops there was considerable opposition to it. out in South , in Tonypandy, to But now it has passed we have got to be do away wilh the rights of our Celtic realistic and face facts. I know there brethren down there. What a difference are people in this Court whose one fear there is—fighting for conditions and also is that wages will go up and conditions fighting for a nation. Now this is all will become better. They are against propaganda, and quotations can mean national insurance stamps, against pen- anything. We have got to be realistic sion schemes, against reciprocity with and realise this, that we must keep England and their own way of hoping negotiations open with the British Gov- for self-government in this Island is to ernment, In the Isle of Man there is a have a little circle where we could have law where a dog is allowed to bite you our own wage conditions, engage our and get away with it, In England he own teachers, throw the Burnham Scale gets another bite. Now take care that overboard, trade union agreements over- you don't give the British Bulldog a board, that is the kind of thing I fear is chance to use that second bite. Let us behind the moving of this resolution. hold on to the freedom and home rule They would be getting the same pay- that we have got in this Island and let ment as in King Orry's time. a think us settle down in this 'Court not to that while this has been a ruritanical bother with nonsensical things like we idea and a comic opera with regard to have here to-day, but for the good gov- the English press, it is a very serious ernment of the Isle of Man and its matter to the people who are rearing people.

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Members: Hear, hear. these, and I would like hon. members to please pay particular attention. "It is Mr Irving: Your Excellency, I wish to simple," this person said. "We can see speak on the good government of the that this legislation is going to be forced Isle of Man and its people. Now I have upon us for political reasons." And this, noticed, Your Excellency, that the Your Excellency, was the learned Court seems in a fairly good mood at Attorney-General speaking to the Privy the moment. I have prepared, I must Council in London. "This legislation," confess, an attacking and fairly lengthy he said, "is going to be forced on us for speech which I am going to scrap, and political reasons." The cat was out of I hope hon. members will understand the bag there, sir. The learned Attorney- my feelings as I have to speak this General may have to make a show of it afternoon, scrapping everything I have to-day . . . the hon. member is well laboured over so long, at least for the aware of the whold tone of our talk at last few hours. Now, sir, I feel that this the time at the Privy Council :hat • can be handled in a nice way. I am not the British Government was interfer- going to attack previous speakers, as I ing in our domestic affairs. But I would intended to, save to remark, Your Ex- like, sir, briefly to mention one or two cellency, that the Whitehall element in items. I have heard talk of independ- the Council. today has given us some ence. We have heard talk here this extremely good ammunition for the next afternoon about have never round of constitutional reform which I claimed independence for this Island. I fear will not be long delayed. have never spoken about U.D.I. and when someone says to me "Are you for Members: Hear, hear. independence?" I say, "What do you Mr Irving: I would not have expected mean by independence?" It is a relative these hon. gentlemen to bite the hand erm.. If you mean chopping off all con- that feeds them of course, but I do feel nections with England, no. If you mean that they could have been a great deal do we want, and I believe we do, a more considerate to-day to the feelings gi eater measure of independence gradu- of certain non. members of this Court ally over the years like every other without displaying in quite such a British dependency, then my answer is vulgar manner their attachment to yes. Whitehall. I would like to refer to one Mr Callister: That is no: what your individual in the case of the learned Attorney-General. The learned Attorney- resolution says. General this Morning read and spoke of Mr Irving: It is not my resolution, sir. the constitutional relationship between I shall remind the hon. members of the the Isle of Man and the United King- Court in a few minutes of the disgust- dom—the memorandum by the Home ing remarks you made to the "Liverpool Office. There are certain words in this Post'' yesterday, if you are not careful, memorandum which he did not use. sir. (Laughter.) When I am asked about And those words were, "It is naturally independence I say I am not for cutting possible to defer a decision as to the off with Britain. But that is not the application to the Island of an inter- question to-day. It is not on the agenda. national agreement until after its rati- It is nothing to do with th:s particular fication by the United Kingdom. The motion. What the motion seeks to do in agreement can then be extended to the terms of independence is to enable, us Isle of Man by declaration if the Isle of to retain the limlted amount of inde- Man so desires." I didn't hear those pendence which we have got now. words this morning. I have some other words in which this honourable Court Mr Callister: Your Excellency, on a may be interested. And the words are point of order. I think that the bon.

Application of United Kingdom egislation by Order in Council. TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967 1883

member, in saying that I made disgust- off as a fight to either retain Caroline ing remarks; should be asked to with- or increase the power of Manx Radio. draw. We rind suddenly, sir, that Caroline is • to cease. To us, that Order in. Council Mr Irving: I shall certainly withdraw was aimed at Radio Caroline North. It the word disgusting. I shall just read the remarks. (Laughter.) I leave it to was aimed at. this one voice we have hon. members themselves to see what had to the outside wor...d for two years. they think of this statement — "Mr, That is what it meant to us and we Edward Canister, retired bank manager realised that this voice to the outside and Labour M.P. for North Douglas. world had done great things for this told me, 'Britain' — and he is talking Island over that period. We realised about the United Kingdom Government that :here in the business of selling whom he professes to admire so greatly. tourism was promotion through radio — 'Britain seems to think it is all right which is just what this Island needed. to have homosexuality and abortion, but And we could see that there would be commercial radio, that is the cardinal • damage to the economy of the Island. sin'," We then rejected the Marine Offences Bill because we hoped to retain Caroline Mr Canister: I never made any such or get ourselves more power for Manx statement and I deny that I ever made Radio. And it seemed to us that the it. I don't care what the paper says, I • British Government were going to force deny having made that statement. the Marine Offences Act on to us by (Laughter.) Order in Council, so we petitioned Her Majesty the Queen. Now as one member Mr Irving: Your Excellency, we have of that delegation, I want to say some- talked today about legality, about thing of what happened when we went whether it is legally correct for the to see the Privy Council, and I would British Government to apply an Order like hon. members to remember that we in Council to the Isle of Man against the were going through the correct consiitu- wishes of Tynwald. I am not in a posi- tional steps here. We went to see the tion to take part in that argument about Privy Council. I think the real mistake these legalities, because I don't know we made in going to see the Privy enough about them. I certainly think it Council as we did was this, if we had is high time we engaged a top constitu- blackened our faces before we went in, tional lawyer to put us in the picture on banged the table and screamed for these matters, but what I am interested independence, we would have come out in, sir, is in this connection of Orders with a 200-watt .station and perhaps a of Council, matters of honour — of care financial hand-out of Zl0,000.000. But and protection for dependencies, of we didn't, we didn't, sir. We went there square dealing between the United in all innocence, being nice to these Kingdom Government and the Isle of people, not pressing our case perhaps ManeI want to go into this very briefly, too hard, and what happened ? We were I hope, into what has caused this Order too modest in our demands and this to be put on us against our wishes. What Island had already created the impres- did the United Kingdom do, as respon- sion that we would bark but not bite, sible in the end for our good govern- so in the end, in a delayed form, we got ment. to ensure or to try to ensure that what the Americans call "the bum's it was not against OUT wishes ? I think rush." we must remember in spite of all the Mr MeFee: You were too tame. constitutional talk that this is about broadcasting. What matters here, and Mr Irving: We were too tame. we all know it, is kilowatts. This started The Governor: Order, order.

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Mr Irving: We have been all along cil, "Lord President, the purpose of this in this matter too tame, but we have petition is to protect us, we are asking played it nicely. We have played it The Queen to protect us Brom the United politely, and, of course, we don't get Kingdom Government." And I had to anyrwhere. All we find, I feel, sir, is that say it to the four United Kingdom there is this feeling that there is a ministers who we were claiming protec- high-handed and bullying action by the tion from. It strikes me, we hear in British Government. Now on the this Court, that justice must not only assumption that there was no way in be done, but must be seen to be done, which we could save Caroline — and we but perhaps they are not aware of this did reach that stage — however grateful in Whitehall, or perhaps they don't we were to Caroline, we felt This is mind. Now, it was obvious to us that beyond us now, if the British Act is they really were not taking us seriously passed they will sink Caroline in spite on this matter, that they really felt — of anything we do." At that stage we we have had plenty of trouble dealing decided that if this Order in Council with visiting delegations from trouble- was going to be forced on us — and we some dependencies, we hand out the said this to the Privy Council — if bromides and they all go home happy this Order is to be forced on us, the and this has happened time after time Manx people will be a great deal hap- in London and it has happened to us, pier if increased .power can he given to and to my mind, it is not good enough. Manx Radio to make up, to some extent, Now I must confess. I must be honest not completely but to some small and say, when we asked for sufficient degree, for the loss of Radio Caroline. power for Manx Radio to cover the We considered that was fair, and we Island, we admitted that there would considered that the United Kingdom be an overspill into the United King- Government, if they knew that we felt dom, there would be a certain overspill it would damage our economy, if they into the United Kingdom, but we felt knew that this Order in Council was it was easier for the Postmaster-General repugnant to the Manx people, that to justify giving us sufficient strength they would try in some ways—as being for the Island, and getting results, than responsible for us in the end — to to say to the Postmaster-General, "we giye us something that would lessen the want a licence for a big radio station." effect of this damage to our economy. We knew we would not get it. But the And so we asked for an increase in point, surely, is this. The British Gov- power for Manx Radio. And what ernment are not in 1tavour of com- strength did we ask for ? We did not mercial radio, but the Isle of Man Gov- ask for the 50 kilowatts which would be ernment is. The British Government necessary to replace Caro:ine, we did say, You may have a radio station be- not ask for the 150 kilowatts which one is cause you are a separate national legally entitled to use on this particular entity with a distinct.ve culture of your wavelength frequency. No, here again, own, and it is up to you to decide we were far too modest, we asked for whether it be commercial or other- sufficient strength for Manx Radio — wise," and the decision was that ;t. Lord, help me, I am ashamed of it . . should be commercial. But now the to cover the Isle of Man. We must British Government say, "If your sta- confess — we asked for enough to cover tion is not commercial, you may broad- the Isle of Man, and what did we get? cast to England, but if your station is Nothing. But then, could we have commercial you cannot." expected anything? You see, as the hon.. The Attorney-General: I never heard member for Rushen pointed out this them say that. I wish you would give morning, I had to say at the Privy Coun- your authority for that remark.

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Mr Irving: Well, I am not prepared world. But they are prepared to say to come here, sir, and produce authori- that small nations must not talk back ties from all over the place for to hem. (Laughter.) Now I think they every remark I make. It is surely are being most unreasonable here. I obvious to hon. members that the reason the Postmaster-General said think we, if we are entitled to a radio that your particular broadcast must be station, are entitled to a radio station confined to your country is because we of a reasonable strength. Now why are commercial, and it is against the would the Postmaster-General not want domestic policies of the British Govern- our broadcast to be heard in Britain? ment. It could be he feels that this station is The Governor: In the interests of the outside the control of the British Gov- hon. members, I should tell you that I ernment. It might broadcast political wrote and asked the Postmaster-General propaganda, it might broadcast racial whether there would be any objection disturbances, and so on. But I would to a non-commercial radio covering the have thought if we approached them Island and having spillage into the north with the proposal that the United King- of England, and I received a reply this dom Government had a share in the say afternoon saying the matter was being of the control of that station through considered and he could not give a the Broadcasting Commission, that he reply yet. might reconsider this matter. In fact, I would go so far as to say that the Mr MacDonald: Your Excellency, Postmaster-General can have all the could I give my colleague what the seats on our Broadcasting Commission Postmaster-General said yesterday, if it means that we can get more power which will tie up with what he is saying for our station into England. now? Mr Kreale: Take it! Mr Irving: Sir, thank you very much for that information, that was most Mr Irving: We understand that this interesting. One sees. at least, that the Order in Council, sir, has not yet been Postmaster-General does not reject it signed, and I believe that it would be immediate:v. Anyway, my point is a good thing if it were held up until this. Here we have on a wavelength there could be further negotiations. It. of 232 metres two stations operating. is all very well for the hon. member to We have the B.B.C. and Manx Radio. say. ''keep the door open with negotia- W. have Manx Radio operating on tions". The door, Your Excellency, Is kilowatts, confined to the Isle of Man. firmly closed, it is not open, and we WE have the E.E.C. on 150 kilowatts, must look for some other way to have blasting away on their European ser- these negotiations. Now we are mem- vice to the European countries, Now I bers of the Commonwealth Parliamen- am sure that the B.B.C. could not care tary Association, and I am beginning less what the domestic policies of the nowadays, sir, to be very interested countries are at the receiving end. We indeed in this Association. I can see underatand that the motto of the B.B.C. its value to the Commonwealth Parlia- "Nation shall sreak unto nation." It ments. I feel that in this case it would is apparently the policy of the British he entirely reasonable of us to say, Government that nation shall speak "Where could we find a better place unto nation. They are extremely for arbitra:don. 'if you like, than the anxious that they shall speak to other Commonwealth Parliamentary— nations whether it be Rhodesia, the European countries, indeed all over the Mr Corkish: Civil servants in London.

Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in .Council. 1886 TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967

Mr Irving; 1 think they would help, Mr Irving: We have been told all sir, I Cannot understand . . • I must this— eortfess, let me be honest, looking back now I can understand if the Court Mr Kneele: We haven't been told. were shocked by the original motion proposed by Mr MacDonald. I supPoSe Mr Irving: Now, the one organisation on reflection it was asking a lot from of which we are members is the Com- the hon. members to mention the United monwealth Parliamentary, and that is the 'organisation we ought to use. You Nations, but we are not mentioning the United Nations now, we are mentioning see, hon. members , . I gather that • our own family, we are mentioning the majority of hon. members are pre- - pared to vote for part .1 of this. Well, our own family organisation. Let us not to my mind, part I is worse than part 2. conceal the facts: we have a dispute be- Pant 1 is worse than part 2. And yet tween the two governments, there is a hon. members are going to vote for dispute. Let us forget who is right and part 1, they are going to condemn who is wrong— the. action of the British Government, but they are going to say, "We are Mr Corkish: It is a face-saver, that's not going to do anything about it or all. to make sure it does not happen again." You see, it is going to be thrown out, Mr Irving: It is a face-saver, it may and people are entitled to say to hon. well be a face-saver, but people's faces members, to this Court, "Yot stood up have to be saved. I am not interested at election time (and certainly I did), in saving our face so much, as perhaps and said, 'I will fight for a powerful the face of the United Kingaom Govern- Manx Radio'." I said, "This will require ment. I think it is perfectly reasonable the most resolute action. I am pre- that we shou!d use a body such as the pared to face the resolute action, al- Commonwealth Secretariat, which has though it does not strike me at the been set up to deal with disputes be- moment as being very resolute, but I tween Commonwealth countries. This, am not going to go back to my electors to me, is a logical thing to do, and it and say, 1 shook my fist at England may well be, and I hope it will, that and said you have been very naughty the Commonwealth Secretariat will to apply this Order in Council to us arrange for us to be heard by the I.T.U. without talking it over and trying to fix Hon. members behind me want to go it up so that it did not damage us too to the I.T.U. I would like to go to the much'." I am not going back to my I.T.U. too. I sometimes feel if we go electors and saying, "Well, we told them - on like this we will be finishing up at it was wrong." Now the hon. member Lambeth Palace and the Vatican for Ayre, Mr Kerruish, has ohallenged Mr McFee: Hasn't it been to I.T.U.? me to state where the United Kingdom are trying to extinguish the right of Mr Irving: It hasn't been to I.T.U. Tynwald to legislate for the Isle of Man, You see, what we must understand very something like that, and I would reply clearly — Oh, I do wish hon. mem- to the hon. member that he and I were bers would realise how many things both at the Home Office at a meeting in have been tried. We cannot go to connection with the Common Market. We are not members, and Bri- He realises the difficulty I am in be- tain will not puf our case forward to cause those proceedings were confiden- I.T.U. tial, but he does know this. He knows that we were informed that according Mr Kneele: Who said so? to Article 2274 of the Treaty of Rome,

Application of United Kingdom egislation by Order in Council, TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967 1887 if Britain joins, the Isle of Man joins, Mr Corkish: More rubbish! and he knows this too. He knows that Britain is making (this is public know- Mr Irving: To conclude, Your Excel- ledge) special_ arranoements for over- lency. I beg hon. members, however seas dependencies in the British Com- much they may have adopted a hostile monwealth. He knows too that there altitude to the original motion, and some are no plans whatsoever to ask for any of them a semi-hostile attitude to the special arrangements for the Isle of amendment by the hon. member for Man. and he knows, in spite of my Ramsey. I beg them to consider this. pressing for an answer, that no answer Can we really leave this Court condem- to satisfy us was forthcoming—The ning the action without going some- real answer— where to a body within our own fami'y, and asking that body to abitrate for us? Mr Nivison: I deny that, I was present Asking that body to investigate, to give and that is untrue. Regarding certain the Uni:ed Kingdom an opportunity to matters with which I am implicated, we reply, and to give them an opportunity, were given complete satisfaction on the I hope, to give us some satisfaction in differential that does exist at the this matter. I do hone. hon. members, moment and will continue to exist. as members of the Commonwealth Par- Mr Irving: What the hon. member liamentary Association, we will stick suggests, Your Excellency, is this. That together. some of our problems were made to The Governor: Does the hon. member appear not quite bad as we thought as for Peel wish to reply? they were going to be and certainly we were— Mr MacDonald: Your Excellency. I Mr Crowe: Your Excellency, if this don't want to take un a lot of time at was a confidential meeting, and I was all. My good colleague has answered at that meeting, the minutes of that most of the questions. However, there meeting are not yet available, surely it was one Question Mr McFee asked, in is wrong for it to be discussed in any the Counci.l. and this is the matter of chamber? (Interruption.) the The International Telecom- munications Union. is, as I believe The Speaker: Surely it is right for quo:ed before, .the oldest body of the Tynwald to know the background. United Nations. It is not really respon- The Governor: The hon. member can sible for allocating frequencies. What say anything he likes, but if this is a it tries to do is to have an orderly brief speech, 1 am also at a loss! arrangement over the whole of the radio (Laughter.) spec:rums and to make certain there is not too much trouble between coun- Mr Your Excellency, I am tties using the various wavelengths. not going to say any more, save this: The United Kingdom Government, as Let us see what harroens in the future, my colleague has said, were allocated let us see the special arrangements for 232 metres, and a lot of other channels the Islie of Man, The Manx people in the days when we had an empire. will soon notice whether they have They have held an to as many as they been or not when the blast of entry to can. and today they have given us 232 the Common Market reaches us. How- metres to use in the Isle of Man. It is ever. that is another pMnt. I have been quite correct again to say that they did to'd now by a Press gentleman that MT tell us that we were limited to the Roy Jenkins has said he is going to Isle of Man because of an inter- abolish birching everywhere. This is national agreement they had made supposed to be this afternoon at the that any station operat-

Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council. 1888 TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967

ing on this channel shou:d be limited Mr Burke: Your Excellency, %you'd I to its territorial area. However, again. be in order in sugges:ing that certain my colleague is quite correct, they words be added . . . Sir Henry would break this agreement (and it is only an accept this amendment? agreement, there is nothing legal about it that can be enforced). They break MemberS: N. this agreement and broadcast themselves Mr Burke: Could I convey to you to Europe, so what is good for the goose what I suggest? is not necessarily good for the gosling. For us to approach the I.T.U., we have The Governor: We have closed the written to the I.T.0 to say—What would debate now, be the position if we applied for As- sociate Membership? We know exactly. Mr Burke: After the word "difficulty" they said, it would cast us at the could be added "if any as defined " moment about E.1,800 per year to be- The Governor: Sir Henry's amend- come an associate member, but we could ment was the second one to be moved. not appy unless Her Majesty's Govern- and so we vote on that first. Those in ment in the United Kingdom agreed that favour say aye. we should do. So here we are again hack to where we started. I believe the A division was called for and voting Government Secretary has written to resulted as follows:— Her Majesty's Government to find out what will the position be and I presume In the Keys— to date we have had no answer. How- For: Miss Thornton-Duesbery and ever, we were told in London when I Messrs Anderson, Soittall. Quayle. went with Mr Kneale—and this was by Greer, Faragher. Simcocks, the Post Office officials, the P.M.G.'s de- Vereker, Irvng, Burke, Devereau. partment—not to bother about this, it MacDonald. Kelly. Sir Henry Sug- would not help us one iota. Correct. Mr den and the Speaker-16. Kneale? It would not help us if we were members. Against: Messrs MacLeod, Crowe, kemruish, Radcliffe, Canister, Moore, Mr Kneale: No. That is not my im- Corkish and Kneale-8. pression. The Speaker: Your Excellency, the Mr MacDonald: Your Excellency, I amendment has been carried in the don't want to go through anything else. House of Keys, 16 votes being cast in I think I can leave it to the good sense favour, eight votes against. of this 'Court to decide today whether or not the United Kingdom Government In the Council— in taking the action it has taken. is in Far: Nil. fact infringing — and remember this — infringing on a Charter of the United Against: The Lord Bishop, Deemster Nations which Quite clearly lays down Kneale. the Attorney - General, • that the interests of the people of this Messrs Bolton, Corkhill, McFee. territory are oaramount to its own. Nichols. Nivison. Radcliffe and Sim Thank you, Your Excellency. Ralph Stevenson-10. The Governor: I shall now put the The Governor: The amendment has vote. The first amendment is that of been defeated in the Council, 10 votes Sim Henry Sugden to substitute for against. Now the amendment of Mr paragraph (b). the paragraph which has McFee's. Those in favour say aye, been circulated. against no.

Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council, TYNWALD COURT, AUGUST 8, 1967 1839

A division was called for and voting The Speaker: Your Excellency, sec- resulted as follows:— tion (a) has been carried in the House of Keys, 18 votes in favour, six votes in the Keys— against, sir. For: Messrs CaLister, Moore arid In the Council— Corkish-3. For: The Lord Bishop and .Mr Cork- Agains:: Miss Thornton-Duesbery, Messrs Anderson, MacLeod, Crowe. Against: Deemsler Kneale, the Xerruish, Radcliffe, Spittall, Quayle, Attorney-General, Messrs Bolton, Creer, Faragher, Simcocks, Kelly, McFee. Nicholls, Nivison, Radcliffe, Vereker, Irving, Burke, Kneale, Sir Ralph Stevenson-8. Devereau, MacDonald, Sir Henry Sugden and the Speaker-21, The Governor: Lost in the CounciI, eight against and two in favour, . • The Speaker: Your Excellency, the Mr Irving: Your Excellency, I beg to amendment has been lost in the House move that .the Keys retire to their owri of Keys, three votes being cast in Chamber. favour, 21 votes against. The Governor: We are in the middle In the Council— of a vote. For: Messrs Nivison, McFee and The Speaker: Your Excellency, may I Nicholls-2. draw your attention to Standing. Order 19? Against: The Lord Bishop, Deemster Kneale, the Attorney - General. The Governor: If anybody seconds it, Messrs Bolton., Corkhil2., Radcliffe. it can be put to the vote. Sir Ralph Stevenson-7. Mr MacDonald: I second. The Governor: It is in the Coun- The Governor: Well, does the Keys seven votes against and three in favour. wish to ? The Governor: Now paragraph (a) of A vote was called for and resulted as the original motion. Mr Kneale's follows:— amendment was not seconded. Para- For: Miss Thornton-Duesbery, Messrs graph (a) of the original motion. Those Anderson, Spittall, Quayle, Gieer, in favour say aye, against no. Faragher, Crerin, Simcocks,'• Ver- eker, Irving, Devereau, 'MacDonald, A division was called for and voting Kelly and the Speaker-14. resulted as follows:— . , Against: Messrs MacLeod, Crowe, R. In the Keys— E. S. Kerruish, Radcliffe, Callister, For: Miss Thornton-Duesbery, 'Messrs Moore, .Corkish, Burke. Kneale, Sir Anderson, Crowe, R. E. S. Kerruish. Henry Sugden-10. Had Spittall, Quayle, Greer, The Speaker: Your Excellency, .14 Faragher, Simcocks, Crellin, Ver- votes have been cast in favour of the eker, Irving, Devereau, MacDonald, resolution in the House of Keys, 10 Kelly, Sir Henry Sugden• and the votes against, sir. Speaker-18. The Governor: The House of keys writ Against: Messrs MacLeod, Ga therefore retire to their own Chamber Moore. Corkish, Burke and Kneale and the Court will adjourn until .11 —6. o'clock tomorrow morning.

Application of United Kingdom legislation by Order in Council.