Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru Y Pwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chwaraeon The National Assembly for Wales The Culture, Welsh Language and Sport Committee

Dydd Iau, 13 Gorffennaf 2006 Thursday, 13 July 2006

Cynnwys Contents

Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau, Dirprwyon a Datgan Buddiannau Introduction, Apologies, Substitutions and Declarations of Interest

Cofnodion y Cyfarfod Blaenorol Minutes of the Previous Meeting

Gardd Fotaneg Genedlaethol Cymru—Adroddiad Cynnydd National Botanic Garden of Wales—Progress Report

Adroddiad ar Gemau’r Gymanwlad Commonwealth Games Report

Adolygiad o Bêl-droed yng Nghymru—Papur Materion Review of Football in Wales—Issues Paper

Blaenraglen Waith Drafft Draft Forward Work Programme

Adroddiad y Gweinidog Minister’s Report

Cofnodir y trafodion hyn yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir cyfieithiad Saesneg o gyfraniadau yn y Gymraeg. These proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, an English translation of Welsh speeches is included. Aelodau Cynulliad yn bresennol: Rosemary Butler (Cadeirydd), Eleanor Burnham, Lisa Francis, Val Lloyd, Alun Pugh (y Gweinidog dros Ddiwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chwaraeon), Owen John Thomas. Swyddogion yn bresennol: Neil Cox, Gwasanaeth Ymchwil yr Aelodau; Gwilym Evans, Cyfarwyddwr Dros Dro y Gyfarwyddiaeth dros Ddiwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chwaraeon; Gwyn Griffiths, Cynghorydd Cyfreithiol y Pwyllgor. Eraill yn bresennol: Ray Butt, Cyfarwyddwr Datblygu, Gardd Fotaneg Genedlaethol Cymru; Phil Carling, Cyngor Chwaraeon Cymru; Anne Ellis, Chef de Mission, Cyngor Cymru ar gyfer Gemau’r Gymanwlad; Kevin Evans, Tîm Cymru, Gemau’r Gymanwlad 2006; Gideon Griffiths, Tîm Cymru, Gemau’r Gymanwlad 2006; David Hardy, Swyddfa’r Wasg, Gardd Fotaneg Genedlaethol Cymru; Sarah Head, Tîm Cymru, Gemau’r Gymanwlad 2006; Geraint James, Prif Swyddog Cyllid, Gardd Fotaneg Genedlaethol Cymru; Mark James, Prif Weithredwr, Cyngor Sir Caerfyrddin; Betty Morgan, Tîm Cymru, Gemau’r Gymanwlad 2006; Roy Thomas, Prif Weithredwr, Gardd Fotaneg Genedlaethol Cymru. Gwasanaeth y Pwyllgor: Julia Annand, Clerc; Vaughan Watkin, Dirprwy Glerc. Assembly Members in attendance: Rosemary Butler (Chair), Eleanor Burnham, Lisa Francis, Val Lloyd, Alun Pugh (the Minister for Culture, Welsh Language and Sport), Owen John Thomas. Officials in attendance: Neil Cox, Members’ Research Service; Gwilym Evans, Acting Director, Directorate for Culture, Welsh Language and Sport; Gwyn Griffiths, Legal Advisor to the Committee. Others in attendance: Ray Butt, Director of Development, National Botanic Garden of Wales; Phil Carling, Sports Council Wales; Anne Ellis, Chef de Mission, Commonwealth Games Council for Wales; Kevin Evans, Team Wales, Commonwealth Games 2006; Gideon Griffiths, Team Wales, Commonwealth Games 2006; David Hardy, Press Office, National Botanic Garden of Wales; Sarah Head, Team Wales, Commonwealth Games 2006; Geraint James, Chief Finance Officer, National Botanic Garden of Wales; Mark James, Chief Executive, Carmarthenshire County Council; Betty Morgan, Team Wales, Commonwealth Games 2006; Roy Thomas, Chief Executive, National Botanic Garden of Wales. Committee Service: Julia Annand, Clerk; Vaughan Watkin, Deputy Clerk. Cynhaliwyd y cyfarfod yng Ngardd Fotaneg Genedlaethol Cymru. The meeting was held at the National Botanic Garden of Wales. Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 1.41 p.m. The meeting began at 1.41 p.m. Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau, Dirprwyon a Datgan Buddiannau Introduction, Apologies, Substitutions and Declarations of Interest [1] Rosemary Butler: Good afternoon, everyone. I apologise to the members of the public; we are starting slightly late. We had such a wonderful tour of the garden that we took a little longer than expected. I am sorry if anyone has been waiting. I welcome you to this meeting of the Culture, Welsh Language and Sport Committee at the National Botanic Garden. We have had a wonderful morning. It was very difficult to drag people in to the meeting. I am sure that as the sun is shining we will not spend too long on too many of the items so that we can get back out again. [2] We have had apologies from Denise Idris Jones. Otherwise, we do not have any apologies to record. I remind everyone to switch off their mobile telephones, BlackBerrys, or any other electronic device. They should be switched off rather than put on the ‘sleep’ position, because otherwise they interfere with the broadcasting system. [3] There are headsets available for translation for those of you who do not speak Welsh. They also amplify the sound. So, if you find that you cannot hear, the headsets amplify the sound. The attendants will show you how to use them. [4] I remind Members of their legal requirement to make any declarations. I think that all of you have made declarations in the past— [5] Eleanor Burnham: I am a keen gardener. [Laughter.] [6] Rosemary Butler: You might be keen but whether you are very good or not, Eleanor, is a different matter. However, if anyone has to make any declarations, please do so. [7] I remind you that the next meeting will be on 28 September. [8] I would like to thank the botanic garden very much for the hospitality. We had a very interesting tour and a very nice lunch. 1.43 p.m. Cofnodion y Cyfarfod Blaenorol Minutes of the Previous Meeting [9] Rosemary Butler: Are there any comments on the minutes of the previous meeting? [10] Lisa Francis: I think that there are a couple of items outstanding on page 13. I do not know whether or not the Minister intends to discuss them today. [11] Rosemary Butler: You are referring to items outstanding. Sorry, I was talking about the accuracy of the minutes. [12] Lisa Francis: I beg your pardon. I have no comments in that respect. [13] Rosemary Butler: We will now move on to outstanding items. [14] Lisa Francis: In the tabulated section on page 13, it states that Minister is to provide the committee with more information relating to the issues involved in the appointments of the dyfarnydd, and on the timescales involved in the appointment of the dyfarnydd. [15] I notice that there is a section in the Minister’s report on this. I do not know whether you want to discuss it then. [16] Rosemary Butler: I was going to ask him about that during the report. [17] Lisa Francis: Okay. Also, on page 14, it is stated that the Minister would examine whether the minutes of the culture board could be produced earlier than was currently the case. [18] Rosemary Butler: Minister? [19] Alun Pugh: Yes; that is in hand. You will get that information before I come back from recess. It will be faster than it was in the past. [20] Lisa Francis: Will we get the written information on it before recess finishes? [21] Alun Pugh: Yes, certainly before recess finishes. [22] Lisa Francis: All right. Thank you. [23] Rosemary Butler: Are there any other comments on the action points? [24] Eleanor Burnham: Yes, there is the issue about the number and names of the swimming pools involved in the free swimming initiative. [25] Alun Pugh: It will be all local authority pools in Wales. [26] Eleanor Burnham: Can we question further during the Minister’s report? [27] Rosemary Butler: You can do, but they are all local authority swimming pools. [28] Eleanor Burnham: I mean the details of which ones are involved and how much money has been spent. [29] Alun Pugh: So, you want a list of all the local authority swimming pools in Wales? [30] Eleanor Burnham: Yes; I would be very interested in who has been taking part and how much money has actually been spent on it. [31] Alun Pugh: The money that has been invested in the free swimming scheme is a matter of public record; we have put that information on record and in previous committee papers on many occasions. I do not believe that we have provided you with a comprehensive list of every swimming pool in Wales, but if you really want that— [32] Eleanor Burnham: Yes, that would be interesting. [33] Rosemary Butler: Can you not send it to me, Minister, if you do not mind—I do not want to know about every local swimming pool in Wales. [34] Eleanor Burnham: No, but in my region in particular, it would be of great interest to me to see which ones they are, how much the scheme has cost, and how much they have spent on it, as opposed to how much you have allocated. [35] Alun Pugh: I am happy to provide that list. [36] Rosemary Butler: Does anyone else wish to raise anything? I see that you do not. 1.45 p.m. Gardd Fotaneg Genedlaethol Cymru—Adroddiad Cynnydd National Botanic Garden of Wales—Progress Report [37] Rosemary Butler: We will now have a presentation from the National Botanic Garden of Wales team. As you will note, it is a manly team, so it is bound to be good. [Laughter.] Sorry, I should not have said that; can we wipe that from the record, or is that not allowed? [38] We have all seen one of the seven wonders of Wales this morning—it is fantastic. Would you like to introduce your team, Roy, and then do your presentation? Members will then ask you questions. [39] Mr Thomas: Diolch, Gadeirydd. On my right-hand side, we have Mark James, who is part of our team, because he is the chief executive of Carmarthenshire County Council. We are fortunate to reside in this great county of Carmarthenshire, and we are fortunate to have Mark in our team. I apologise on behalf of one of our female members of the executive, Tina Hulbert, who cannot make it; she is away on holiday—she is allowed annual leave once a year. [Laughter.] She would have been on the team otherwise, and sitting with us today. [40] On my left-hand side, I have our new chief finance officer, Geraint James. Geraint distinguished himself as the first finance director of the Welsh Language Board, and was, until recently, the finance director of the Wales Tourist Board. Therefore, I am delighted that Geraint has joined the team here; he is a cornerstone appointment for us in the garden, given some of our perhaps failures, which are well noted on finance. I am delighted to have Geraint with me. [41] Also, on my left-hand side, I have David Hardy, who is our public relations officer, and who has recently joined us. He is the former editor of the Carmarthen Journal, and knows this patch well. On my right-hand side, next to Mark, I have Ray Butt, who, again, is a huge talent in south Wales, and is known for turning around Margam Park. He started this week at the garden, but has been a volunteer for some years here. Ray brings his experience of a visitor attraction to our team, along with other skills. [42] Therefore, I am fortunate to have a good team with me today. I am also pleased to report that your arrival coincides with some important news for the garden, in that our June visitor figures show a 20 per cent increase, year-on-year, and compared with 2005. Our visitor figures for the first quarter of this financial year are up 26.5 per cent on 2005, and, more importantly perhaps, in terms of our finances and my new chief finance officer, our spend per visitor is up 43 per cent. [43] I will pause for questions on that point, but if you want me to carry on, Chair, I will. [44] Rosemary Butler: Yes, do the presentation, and then we will have questions at the end. [45] Mr Thomas: You have before you a memorandum, which sets out the position of the garden in terms of where we would like to see ourselves go. You were correct, Chair, in referring to the Western Mail: 9.7 per cent of the readers voted for us as a wonder of Wales. We were delighted and proud to have that award, some three or four Saturdays ago. If members of the committee would like copies of the front page, I can provide them at ease from my office, and in envelopes. We are proud of that. 1.50 p.m. [46] We are also proud of the fortunes of the gardens recently, in several respects. The built environment is here—some £50 million-worth of expenditure has gone into building the garden. The glasshouse is now mature, as those members of the committee, and others, who visited the garden this morning saw. It is now mature in terms of plant life. One of the key visions here is that we value and sustain our plant life as a vital part of the balanced life on earth. We teach that to the children. One of the cornerstones of what we do here, and what we would like to do more of, is educate children. Around 7,000 children come through the doors in planned school visits. We have some issues there and we are bidding to your education colleagues on that. The Minister for Education, Lifelong Learning and Skills is aware of a bid that we have made for some money from the sustainable development and global citizenship programme, which is due to be launched later in the year, and of which we would like to be a part. We believe that this project is the environmental project for Wales. We would like it to be not only for Wales, but the environmental project for the UK, Europe and the world so that when people talk about sustainable development, they are talking about Carmarthenshire, Wales and what we are doing here, so that, if there are conferences in the pipeline, they come here. [47] The environmental lobby is a key lobby for us. It is a growing lobby and we emphasise the importance of biodiversity through our plant life and the bees, for example. You saw the apiary this morning, which is very important. On biodiversity, we have an excellent exhibition in the glasshouse. So we are looking to add more and our budget for education is £90,000. We would like to see more teachers in our team and we are looking to grow that in the executive team. So, we are looking to have a post that would cover education, science and community development. We are reaching out, because we are a national botanic garden and should, therefore, be in all parts of Wales. We are attempting to do that in some of the placement work that we are doing with teachers coming to us and having their away days with us. We are teaching them about that. It is a great facility for teachers to get out of the classroom and be outdoors. There is nothing like seeing the children running around and enjoying themselves. You have seen some of that in the glasshouse and we have sufficient facilities for that. [48] On the commercial side, the Minister in giving us funding was, quite rightly, very keen to see us improve our commercial side. We think that we have started to deliver, but there is some way to go. When conditions were approved for the annual funding, the Minister was very keen to see some changes in management. We hope that we have achieved that in that we have strengthened the management team here. The Minister also insisted on some changes in the board. Those have been delivered. We have seven new trustees. [49] The Minister also asked us to work closely with Carmarthenshire County Council and the evidence for that, I hope, is in the fact that the chief executive is sitting next to me today. He has given generously of his time, because he is running a rather large authority. We have had three or four meetings over the last week on particular issues on which, I assure you, we and the council are working very closely. We are very pleased about that. Indeed, that filters through to the staff and the volunteers and that is why you saw some very happy people today because there have been changes in relationships. One of our key issues here is that we have partnerships with a capital ‘P’. Rather than talking about it, we are actually doing it. We are talking to the likes of Aberglasney gardens up the road and to private hotel operators like the Morgan group in Swansea and Llandeilo. We can, therefore, offer packages to people on what we are doing and explain that. [50] Our marketing budget is small. One of the key comments—it is not really a complaint—that we get from people as they leave is, ‘Why do you not tell more people about this place?’. I get comments saying that we are better than the Eden Project, with which I would agree, but that is a different ballgame. However, I think that we are better than Eden, because it is a different product. Eden is more of a rock-and-roll product in terms of plant life. I think that we have stronger roots, in that we have much more to offer here. We are a botanic garden with 580 acres. I think that we can deliver a bit more. We will see where Eden goes; I am not knocking its fantastic project, but we will see where it goes. This is a 100-year project, whereas Eden might be on a different track. So, we are very keen on improving that for everyone. With the Minister’s help, and that of the team in the Assembly, we are trying to build confidence, not only here but among the people of Wales and I think that the award of the wonder of Wales helped us in that and has showed that we were on the right track. So, we think that we are there in terms of satisfying some of the concerns that the Minister had in 2003, 2004 and 2005. We are well ahead of plan in terms of recovery. [51] There are shortfalls in our funding. We really do need more funding if we are going to enhance the project and the garden. It would be pretty obvious to most people that we will be bidding for more money and we have addressed that with the Minister. I would not be doing my job if I was not asking the Minister for more money, and he has acknowledged that. How much money is another matter. We have to prove to officials and to the Minister that we are worthy of taxpayers’ money and we have to do the same proofing exercise with the county council. All I can say is that we are trying to do our best. There is a lot more to do. I have a new team and a new chairman has arrived. He was the chairman of the National Trust Committee for Wales, and he was also deputy chair of the Welsh Development Agency. We have a very experienced man in Robin Lewis, whom you met at lunchtime. Under his leadership, the board will have a sound foundation for strategic advice. [52] So, all in all, we are ready for lift-off; we are ready to go for it and we want to go for it. We want to succeed for Wales and we want to prove ourselves, deliver and get more visitors in here. We are on the upward curve on that, against the trends, I gather, and we want to prove that this project is worthy of support from the public and the private sector. [53] Rosemary Butler: Before I bring Members in, I will say that the difference in the garden this year compared with previous years is quite dramatic. Everything is much more mature. What is very impressive is the welcome that you get, both from paid staff and volunteers. I know that it is a difficult management job to get volunteers and paid workers working together, but you are doing a great job. The difference is tremendous. As you say, confidence was hugely knocked a few years ago, but partnership is what it is all about. The fact that you are working well with the county council is impressive; I know that Members are very impressed and that they enjoyed what they saw. [54] I will ask you one thing—I usually bring Members in first—on your report on rebuilding and transformation, in 2.2, you talk about making a solid start in the financial year, ‘which gives us every encouragement and indication that those numbers can be exceeded and that we may reach our full potential.’ [55] That ‘may’ is a bit— [56] Mr Thomas: The word ‘may’ is there as a qualification because, as I mentioned, for example, in terms of our marketing expenditure of £90,000, £26,000 of that will go on well-placed television advertising. We were placing advertisements, for example, in March and early April for Easter, and Easter proved a success because we had 15,000 people in in April and we were 30 to 40 per cent up in terms of figures for Easter. So, we placed our advertising carefully. It is cheaper that time of year to get advertising as it is the start of the season, but then that budget gets eroded with media campaigns. I think that we could easily get 200,000 visitors in here. Our target for paying visitors is 130,000. We also get 30,000 to 40,000 above that with our corporate visitors. The building that you are sitting in gets 12,000 visitors just from corporate visits, for corporate events, seminars, lectures and so on. We have weddings here and all sorts of events in terms of other people who pay for room hire. We also have 7,000 children coming here, which will add to it, and their parents also come. So, our marketing spend could be improved and I think that we would get more people in. 2.00 p.m. [57] Owen John Thomas: Yr wyf yn falch o Owen John Thomas: I am pleased to hear about glywed am yr holl ddatblygiadau. Yr wyf wedi all the developments. I have heard about them clywed amdanynt ac yr wyf wedi eu gweld. and I have seen them. It is very exciting. The Mae’n gyffrous iawn. Mae’r tywydd yn braf, ac weather is nice, and many places look good in mae llawer o leoedd yn edrych yn dda mewn fine weather. This place looks excellent. tywydd braf. Mae’r fan hon yn edrych yn However, if you are to encourage more gampus. Ond, os ydych am ddenu mwy o blant schoolchildren to visit—and you must depend on ysgol—ac mae’n rhaid ichi ddibynnu ar hynny ar that at differnet times of the year—how will you wahanol adegau o’r flwyddyn—sut y byddwch ensure that the resources are available for them to yn sicrhau bod yr adnoddau ar gael iddynt allu be able to keep out of the wind and the rain so aros allan o’r gwynt a’r glaw i fwynhau eu that they enjoy themsleves? hunain? [58] I droi at fy nghwestiwn olaf, mae’r canllaw Turning to my final question, this guide is very hwn yn lliwgar iawn, ond mae’n uniaith Saesneg. colorful, but it is only available in English. I am a Yr wyf yn fachgen o Gaerdydd sydd wedi dysgu Welsh-learner from Cardiff, but I come to Cymraeg, ond yr wyf yn dod i sir Gâr ac yn cael Carmarthenshire and receive an English-only pamffled uniaith Saesneg. Mae hynny’n dipyn o pamphlet. That is quite a disappointment. I hope siom. Gobeithiaf eich bod yn manteisio ar that you are taking advantage of the Welsh bresenoldeb yr iaith Gymraeg yn sir Gâr i roi language in Carmarthenshire to add something to rhywbeth ychwanegol i gymeriad y lle. Mae’r the character of the place. The language makes it iaith yn ei wneud yn wahanol ac yn neilltuol; nid different and unique; not as something only there fel rhywle i edrych arno yn unig, ond fel lle i to be looked at, but as a place for people to bobl sylweddoli eu bod yng Nghymru. understand that they are in Wales. [59] Mr Thomas: Diolch, Mr Thomas. Mr Thomas: Thank you, Mr Thomas. [60] There were two points there. I would like Geraint to deal with the Welsh language issue, as he was instrumental in forming the policy of the Welsh Language Board; I am not ducking the issue at all, by the way. I will deal with that quickly, because Geraint will not know—as he is relatively new—about the visitor guide. It is in English only at the moment; the cost of producing it in Welsh is around £9,000. That is £9,000 that I do not have in my budget at the moment, Mr Thomas. I know that you might say that it is part of our core business, but the visitor guide makes me £35,000 a year. The demand for a Welsh visitor guide is not as high, obviously, as the demand for an English guide. I am not saying that we should not have it available. I would love to have a Welsh visitor guide; that is something on which we are working, By this time next year, I hope that we will have a Welsh visitor guide. You will notice—so that I add to my woe—that we do not have a translation on our website. You could have added that in to hit me with as well; I should not, perhaps, hit myself. I understand what you are saying. We have talked about this in the executive, and Geraint will address that further after I have answered your first question. [61] One issue that comes up constantly is that we do not do enough for children. One of our current radio adverts says that plants are boring, but not at the botanic garden. I can assure you that, if you were here when children are running around, there are sufficient areas for children to shelter from the rain and wind. The glasshouse is rather big—it is quite a size—and we have three classrooms. There is also a theatre, which is fantastic and has 360 degree viewing, which the children love. We also have the physicians of Myddfai exhibition, which has been upgraded to provide better interpretation, with local actors on video. That is in Welsh and in English, I should add. That was a cost that we managed to cover through Millennium Commission money, which we do not have for a visitor guide. [62] As far as children are concerned, I refer you to an article by Sally Williams in the Western Mail of about four weeks ago—copies may be provided to the committee. Sally came to the garden with her 7-year-old daughter, Phoebe, from Welshpool. It was quite a scary thing, because she let Phoebe decide whether nor not she liked it. I refer you to that article. Phoebe enjoyed it. She had been to Eden four weeks before that. All I can say is, look at that article, which is independent of me. I would say that we do deliver for children, but we could do more. We could also do more for the Welsh language. [63] Owen John Thomas: Diolch. Owen John Thomas: Thank you. [64] Rosemary Butler: I have five more people who want to ask questions, and your second question, on the Welsh language, has not yet been answered, Owen John. [65] Mr G. James: Nid wyf am ganolbwyntio ar Mr G. James: I do not want to focus solely on yr ochr ariannol yn unig, gan fod pobl wastad yn the financial side, because people always ask gofyn faint fydd cyfieithu rhywbeth yn ei gosti, how much translating something will cost, either naill ai’n fewnol neu’n allanol. Yr ydym wedi externally or in-house. We have tried both profi’r ddau beth. Yr ydym wedi cyfieithu options. We have translated things in-house, pethau’n fewnol, gan ddefnyddio staff yr ardd, using garden staff, but if they are to translate ond os ydynt i gyfieithu gwaith inni, maent yn work for us, they are taken off other duties. We cael eu tynnu oddi wrth waith arall. Yr ydym have also had support from Menter Cwm hefyd wedi cael cymorth gan Fenter Cwm Gwendraeth with the commissioning of Gwendraeth o ran comisiynu gwaith i’w translation work, and its officers are particularly gyfieithu, ac mae swyddogion y fenter yn good—they can turn things around for us within arbennig o dda—maent yn gallu troi pethau a couple of days. However, sometimes, they, too, rownd inni o fewn cwpl o ddiwrnodau. Ond, are under pressure from translation work. weithiau, maent hwy o dan bwysau hefyd o ran gwaith cyfieithu. [66] Un o’r pethau yr hoffwn ei wneud yn yr One of the things that I would like to do in the ardd dros y tri mis nesaf yw cynnal rhyw fath o garden over the next three months is to undertake arolwg o sgiliau siarad Cymraeg y staff—mae some sort of survey of staff members’ Welsh digon ohonynt o gwmpas. Yna, bydd pawb, ar language skills—there are enough of them about. sawl lefel, yn gallu cynorthwyo, nid efallai Then, everyone, on several levels, can assist, not gyda’r gwaith cyfieithu ei hun, ond gyda’r with the translation work itself, perhaps, but with gwaith darllen proflenni ac efallai gwirio’r proofreading work and with checking the work gwaith a gyfieithir yn allanol. Y math o arian that is translated externally, perhaps. The sort of sydd gennyf mewn golwg ar gyfer cyfieithu yw money that I have in mind for translation is tua £15,000. Byddai hynny’n ein galluogi i around £15,000. That would enable us to employ gyflogi rhywun am ddau neu dri diwrnod yr someone for two to three days a week, or to buy wythnos, neu i brynu’r gwasanaeth o’r tu allan. in that service from external providers. Felly, yr ydym yn edrych ar gyfuniad o ateb Therefore, we are looking at a combination of a ariannol a chael y bobl sydd gennym yn yr ardd, financial response and asking the people that we ac yn lleol hefyd, i’n cynorthwyo i sicrhau bod have in the garden, and locally, to assist us in popeth gennym yn ddwyieithog yn y pen draw. ensuring that, ultimately, we have everything available bilingually. [67] Yr ydym hefyd wedi gwneud gwaith ar yr We have also undertaken work on signage in the arwyddion a geir yn yr ardd wrth y porth, ac wrth garden at the gate, and in guiding people to the gyfeirio pobl at y planhigion. Mae hynny’n plants. That is extremely important with regard to bwysig dros ben o ran diddordeb a phrofiad yr the visitor’s interest and experience. That has to ymwelydd. Mae’n rhaid i hynny fod yn Saesneg, be in English, Welsh and any other language if Cymraeg ac unrhyw iaith arall os ydym i ddenu we are to attract customers from overseas. Thank cwsmeriaid o wledydd tramor. Diolch am y you for the question. cwestiwn. [68] Owen John Thomas: Yr wyf am fod yn Owen John Thomas: I want to be adeiladol—nid wyf am fynd o’m ffordd i fod yn constructive—I do not want to go out of my way feirniadol o gwbl, ac nid wyf yn feirniadol. I mi, to be critical in any way, and I am not being mae defnyddio’r iaith yn rhywbeth ychwanegol. critical. I see the use of the language as Mae’r iaith yn ased, ac nid yn rhywbeth fydd yn something additional. The Welsh language is an tynnu i ffwrdd o rywbeth arall. Felly, nid ydych asset, and not something that takes away from yn talu amdani; mae’n talu drosti ei hun. anything else. You are not, therefore, paying for it; it pays for itself. [69] Rhaid ichi dderbyn hefyd fod nifer gynyddol You must also accept that an increasing number o blant yn cael eu haddysg drwy gyfrwng y of children are taught through the medium of Gymraeg ym Morgannwg a Gwent. Bûm yn Welsh in Glamorgan and Gwent. I was a teacher athro am bron i 30 mlynedd mewn ysgol cyfrwng for nearly 30 years in an English-medium school, Saesneg, ond pe bawn yn dysgu mewn ysgol but if I taught in a Welsh-medium school, I Gymraeg, byddwn am fynd â’r plant i un o would want to take the children to one of Wales’s sefydliadau cenedlaethol Cymru, megis y gerddi national institutions, such as the botanic gardens. botaneg. I mi, mae’r ardd yn debyg i’r llyfrgell For me, the garden is like the national library, the genedlaethol, yr amgueddfa genedlaethol neu national museum or the Millennium Stadium. It Stadiwm y Mileniwm. Mae’n bwysig bod yr ardd is important that the garden reflects its status as a yn adlewyrchu’i statws fel sefydliad cenedlaethol national institution and that the Welsh language a bod yr iaith Gymraeg i’w chael ym mhob man. is present everywhere. Children will then be able Yna, gall plant ddod yma o ysgolion Cymraeg to come here from Welsh-medium schools in Abertawe, Casnewydd, Caerdydd, y Cymoedd ac Swansea, Newport, Cardiff, the Valleys and ati, a chlywed Cymraeg byw. elsewhere and hear Welsh being used. [70] Rosemary Butler: I think that we all agree with that. Lisa? [71] Lisa Francis: Thank you for your presentation. I visited the gardens two years ago—unfortunately, I was not able to make this morning’s visit—and it is remarkable to see what has occurred and how things have turned around from crisis to an absolute celebration and a profusion of colour. Driving around to the gardens’ back entrance, what you see from the road is incredible, and I know that that is due to effective partnership working and a lot of very dedicated volunteers. It cannot have been easy. [72] Specifically, on the science centre, you advertise it in your visitor guide, and that is obviously unoccupied since it was built—perhaps this is more a question for the Minister, in a way, because I think that it cost £3 million to build. Are there any plans scheduled to have that building occupied one way or another? I believe that it was hoped that so-called scientific entrepreneurs would occupy the building. At one time, it was mooted that it might be used for looking at how plants can contribute to medicine. I know that you have your physicians of Myddfai exhibition, but is there any chance that that might be one way of using the building, although I understand that it is divided into 12 incubator units? 2.10 p.m. [73] Also, how is that building being maintained, because while it is empty it costs money to repair it and to keep it going? It attracted a lot of European funding—I think that it was in the region of £95,000. I do not know whether the Minister is able to tell me what happened to that money, or whether he has had any discussions with the Department for Enterprise, Innovation and Networks to see whether there any further openings for that particular building. So, there are two questions there. [74] Rosemary Butler: I thought that there were four questions. [75] Lisa Francis: There is one for the botanic garden and one for the Minister. [76] Mr Thomas: Thank you for that well-researched question. I will pass that to one of our stakeholders—the chief executive of Carmarthenshire County Council. He is a partner who has been involved of late in the work that we are doing in looking to occupy that building. First, I just want to make sure that the key message to get across is that we have not been sitting on our hands. The Audit Committee was in this very room last year, with the Permanent Secretary being interviewed and closely scrutinised with the then chief executive of the Welsh Development Agency, Gareth Hall. They were asked specific questions, and I am sure that you have researched that report. We have not sat on our hands, and we have been working very closely with the Assembly Government and the other side of government—it may be unfair for this Minister to answer, because it is not in his portfolio, but I am sure that he has an answer. I would like to pass this to Mark James, who has been wholly involved with the south-west Wales division of the Assembly in proceeding with that project. [77] Mr M. James: In answering the question, Chair, will you allow me to do a short introduction from the county council’s perspective of where things are in terms of the garden, and then I will specifically address the question? I will try not to be too long. [78] Rosemary Butler: Yes, but I have two more Members who wish to speak and the Minister wants to answer. We have to move on afterwards. [79] Mr M. James: From the county council’s perspective, we were involved from the very outset, about three and a half to four years ago, when the then Finance Minister came to speak with us about the situation at the garden. Since that time, we have worked very closely with the various Assembly Government departments and the garden to try to turn the garden around. I am delighted today to hear the comments made by one or two of you who were at the garden two years ago, which is when the turning point came. Roy and his team—the people that you see to my left and right—would not have been here two years ago. They are all new to the garden, and they were brought in after we reached an agreement with the Minister. The Minister asked me, as chief executive of the county council, to work closely with the garden to improve its governance and the product that it had. It is fair to say that, until the team came in, it had lost focus and it was not quite sure what it was doing. I believe that that focus is now back, and you are seeing that in terms of the numbers of people who are coming in. Far more things are being put on for families and children. As you saw this morning, some of the things that you see here were not here two years ago—there is a lot more interest. The place is crowded on bank holidays and weekends with local people, children and visitors—it is our largest visitor attraction in Carmarthenshire and in this part of west Wales. [80] The garden has also been working very closely with local communities and local schools, and it is building up the volunteer base and the trustee base with its staff. It has an events programme, which it did not have before, and it is, in essence, a fantastic asset for us in the county. We have continued and will continue to work very closely with the garden to bring our expertise, professional advice and guidance in to work with it. [81] That is a long-winded introduction to the question that Lisa asked. To deal specifically with that question, I have been working for about nine to 12 months, primarily at the request of the Government, but also the garden, to try to solve the issue of the biotechnium. The Assembly Government has put in some £0.5 million, not through this ministerial portfolio, but through the portfolio of the Minister for Enterprise, Innovation and Networks, Andrew Davies, to finish the work on the biotechnium. Some work was required, primarily on the roof, but also in other parts of the building. That money has gone in from that department, as I understand. We are working on this at the moment and, in fact, there is a meeting of trustees this afternoon, after you finish, Chair. They will be considering an offer from an entrepreneurial company that does the sort of work that we have been desperate to get in to the knowledge economy in this county. I will go along to that meeting to assist the acting chief executive in talking to the trustees, to try to get that deal tied up this afternoon. Therefore, it is a very live and pertinent question today because that offer is there. [82] Whether the trustees decide to go with the offer or not, it nevertheless shows that the marketing has worked: we have a very young and entrepreneurial company that wants to come to this part of Wales. That is fantastic for my county; that is exactly what we want for Carmarthenshire. On the potential to grow, the idea is that the company will spin off other companies because it will have the wherewithal to do that. Again, the economic development department has offered money to kit-out the biotechnium. Staff are talking to the company and, if everything goes well this afternoon, they will be working with the company to get the information technology and all the necessary laboratory equipment in, so that this young company can get going and can start spinning off companies. We have always envisaged that that would be the hub and that we would develop around the biotechnium, with young entrepreneurial knowledge companies, which the Minister and the county council are keen to see developed in Wales and this part of south-west Wales. [83] Rosemary Butler: Thank you, that was very helpful. Minister, do you have any comments to make? [84] Alun Pugh: Mark James has summarised the situation very well. This garden, a couple of years ago, was in serious difficulties. I can remember coming under enormous pressure on the floor of the Assembly to simply hand over large sums of public money, and I was not prepared to do that until fundamental changes were engineered at the garden. I am not going to criticise the previous management and governance of the garden, but I can certainly say that the current team has engineered significant improvements, which we have all seen today. It was important that we had an investment of public money in this facility, but it had to be tied to fundamental changes in the product and appeal of the garden and the way in which the garden was managed and governed. I am pleased with the hard work that has been done by governors, the management team, and the army of volunteers that we have seen. By working together and changing the product, this place is now far more successful than it was. [85] Val Lloyd: Chair, you will be pleased to know that Lisa asked one of my questions on the biotechnium, so that will cut down on the time that I need. I was pleased to hear the answer to that question. I was impressed this morning by the volunteers who assisted us when we were walking around. They were clearly enthusiastic, but also knowledgeable and committed to their gardens. Could you give us some idea of how many volunteers are working here and, more importantly, how you attract them? You must be doing something right to keep them, therefore, is there a lesson there that could be learnt by others in similar situations? [86] My second question touches on your educational programmes. I was particularly interested to hear you say that you have put a bid in to the Minister for Education, Lifelong Learning and Skills to deal with a sustainable development and global citizenship programme, because I was going to ask whether the garden runs any programmes on sustainable development. It strikes me that you have some pretty good examples of it, and I wondered what you were making of those examples. [87] Mr Thomas: On volunteers, I am not sure whether we should give our secrets away. I think that the secret is that they are well organised and well chaired. Martin Hens, who was a dentist in Swansea, and whom I think some of you know, is the chair of the volunteers. On the volunteer committee, we have experience from all walks of life, and the members bring all sorts of great experiences and wisdom with them as they are in their older years. I should add that most of them are over 60 years of age. On the numbers front, we have about 220 volunteers on the register and 100 regularly come in every week. Therefore, we have about 70 to 80 hours a week of volunteer work. You will have noticed that on the buggy driving, which is important, they have their own programme of informing visitors. They are organised by a full member of staff, Peter Bernays, and he is here constantly. That kind of work goes on in the evening, because volunteers are not around in the day. So, we are constantly phoning them up. 2.20 p.m. [88] Another secret is communication with them. Today has been great, because, through you, we have been able to involve them with this committee, which you saw. They like being involved and informed, and they like meeting the Minister, the Chair of the committee, and you as Members. It is very important for us, and the same is true of the staff, because they hear a lot about you in Cardiff and Cardiff bay, and they hear a lot about you in the headlines, but they do not see you, and they like meeting you, believe it or not, as do we as a management team. We would invite you down here every week. [89] The volunteers are and have been crucial to our success. I know that I can call on Martin Hens, the chairman, night or day to muster support. That happens on bank holiday Mondays—and I assure you, Val, that this is when we reach our difficult time, because when we have 2,200 people in here, the kitchen has an eight-minute queue, and our kitchen staff are working hard as everyone wants to eat at 1 p.m., whether in the Mediterranean cafe in the glasshouse, or in the cafeteria. Our food is fantastic. The kitchen staff are unbelievably hard-working. We have college students as well as full- time members of staff. So, we have seasonal staff and local staff, and their commitment is tremendous. [90] On biodiversity and the question of sustainable development, we could do more. We teach it; every day, every child who comes here gets a huge dose of sustainable development, I can assure you, through Trevor Roach, who is our head of education and lifelong learning. He delivers that programme. We have a biomass boiler, and we try to look at things sustainably. We could do more on that, but we try to teach children and adults about that message. [91] Eleanor Burnham: I am hugely impressed. I am a keen gardener, and when I first came here I could see that you had huge difficulties, and I said in various speeches that Kew had taken 200 years to develop, and I could not imagine this garden developing and flourishing in one, two or three years. I think that it is brilliant. The team is obviously dedicated; it is very impressive. I cannot say anything other than that as an initial comment. [92] You are in a slightly challenging location. How far, for example, do you encourage people to travel? You have quite an unusual map; it does not include some of the local roads. Local people obviously come here, but perhaps—and you might correct me on this—you do not have the level of UK-media coverage that the Eden Project had. How are you addressing that, and how will you encourage more kids to come here, because this is a place for people in the future, is it not, as it is not just for adults? This is a wonderfully exciting project, and I am very impressed. How will you get more media attention within the UK and, perhaps, globally, because the visitor attractions and the educational and sustainability aspects are of interest to people in Wales, but also to people in the UK and globally? Are you hoping to attract people globally? How well are you doing on that? Who are your competitors? Do you have any apart from the Eden Project? [93] Mr Thomas: There were about six questions there. [94] Rosemary Butler: That is very good; she is usually worse than that. [95] Mr Thomas: I am happy to answer each one. [96] Eleanor Burnham: They are all linked. [97] Mr Thomas: Thank you, Eleanor. I do not know where to start. I will start at the beginning, as was said in Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland. On the first question, regarding the map, when I first arrived, there was a map—which I am happy to send you—that had all of the arrows pointing away from the garden, which I did not understand. I did an audit of the website—it needs updating, as I mentioned to Owen—and one of our most frequently visited pages is our map page, which people download before they come here. It was the most confusing map that one could ever imagine. If you were from foreign lands, it would have looked to you as though Ammanford and Cross Hands were a huge conurbation—and I mean no disrespect to Ammanford or Cross Hands by that. If you were from Philadelphia, you would be saying, ‘Gee, I will go to Ammanford and have a bit of lunch and then go to Cross Hands, and then I will visit that botanic garden’, which I am sure Mark would encourage. We have tried to simplify the map, and, again, I am not sure whether we have got it right, because I think that you are referring to the top left-hand corner, and the people of Bangor or Caernarfon, or, indeed, mid Wales, where you are pointing, might have a view on that. However, it is four hours away, as Mark is whispering in my ear. [98] Maps Wales and roads Wales are matters for another committee, I think. We could be here all afternoon. [99] Rosemary Butler: You have three minutes, so you will not be here all afternoon. [100] Mr Thomas: I am not in charge of public transport, but you asked about international marketing. We are looking to fundraise in North America. If you look at our magazine you will see that we are working with the Wales North America Business Council, which I know very well, and which the Minister for economic development and transport knows very well. It is merging with the Wales North American Chamber of Commerce, and we are looking to fundraise out there on the back of the new tropical glasshouse with John Belle, who is based in New York. We do attract international visitors. We had German tourists here, and a lady from Sydney was here this morning, who had lived in Australia for 28 years, but who still had a Welsh accent. That is not uncommon. We also have people from South Africa. Every day, we get international visitors, and they do not all opt to go to Cardiff bay; some of them come down the road to us. We are only 57 minutes away from Cardiff, and one of the issues—I suppose like the children issue in that we do not do enough for children, as Mark answered on that far better than I did—is that there is a myth that we are too far away. When I go to places such as Abergavenny, people there say, ‘Well, they put it in the wrong place’. No, they did not; they put it in the right place. We have 560 acres, just down the road from Cardiff. The M4 is quite a good road, and it is not far from Pont Abraham. Where else would you put the gardens? I do not know of anywhere else where I would want to put the National Botanic Garden of Wales. I think that it is in the excellent Tywi valley, where we have a can-do county council. I will leave it to Mark to say what he is doing about marketing the area. [101] Mr M. James: I will be very quick, Chair, as I know that you are on a ticking clock. The Carmarthenshire tourism brochure—I have not brought one with me but I have some in the car—is very good, it gets better every year, and, this year, it is fantastic. We have the gardens in prime position there. The brochure goes out all over Wales, the UK, and internationally. We have our own website with a link to the gardens, which gets thousands of hits every week, let alone every month or year. We also do international marketing. As a quick example, on St David’s Day, we were the lead article in a publication on the east coast of America and Canada, which was aimed at Wales. I never knew that it existed previously, but I had a telephone call from the editor saying, ‘We would like to do a feature on Carmarthenshire for St David’s Day; do you think that you could give us something?’. Boy, did we give them something! We had a double-page spread on St David’s Day, in this magazine, which is distributed all the way up the east coast of America into Canada. So, we are out there, we are marketing, and the gardens feature very heavily in that, as it is our major tourist attraction. [102] Mr Thomas: The Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew were mentioned earlier. Having read some history in preparation for this meeting, Chair, knowing that you would interrogate me, I looked at the history of Kew. In 1838— [103] Rosemary Butler: I was not there then— [104] Mr Thomas: I was not suggesting that, Chair. You are looking younger by the minute. [105] Rosemary Butler: I am not the one with the money; he has the money. [106] Alun Pugh: Flattery may help. [Laughter.] [107] Mr Thomas: In 1838, Kew had a Linley report delivered to HM Treasury, which showed that it was also falling into disrepair and disrepute with the public. It is quite a long time ago, Eleanor is quite right. Kew has been going a bit longer than us. Indeed, in 1841, it then became a non- departmental public body, and was funded by the Treasury. It now gets £24 million, of course, which is a bit different, and Edinburgh gets £7.1 million. Therefore, our competitors are slightly different in their funding, and I am not bidding, as the Minister knows, for that type of money. 2.30 p.m. [108] Mr M. James: Half of that would do. [109] Owen John Thomas: You should be bidding. [110] Mr Thomas: Yes, perhaps I should be. However, generally, we need to perform. We are doing well with the competition, and we want to work with the competition. We had good meetings with Aberglasney gardens the other day, on joint marketing, which the chief executive of the county council encourages. As I mentioned, we also have meetings with hotel operators. However, we are unique; we are a botanic garden that can deliver, provided that we are given more encouragement and more financial support. [111] Rosemary Butler: Thank you for your presentation, and for your welcome. As someone who represents Newport, which is not on your map, but which also made a bid to get the botanic garden, and failed, I congratulate you on what you are doing. [112] I was impressed by the fact that you spoke for 10 minutes, but you never mentioned money. Usually, people are upfront, and, within a minute, they are asking for money. However, the point that you have made is that you are spending your money in a far better way than previously, but you need more to develop. It would be interesting if you could do us a small A4 paper on what your immediate wish list would be. We can then try to strong-arm the Minister to see whether, when he gets a hand-out from the Finance Minister, it might come this way. [113] All committee members are impressed with the garden, and we are pleased that we have been here. Thank you for your presentation. [114] Mr Thomas: Thank you, Chair and Members. 2.33 p.m. Adroddiad ar Gemau’r Gymanwlad Commonwealth Games Report [115] Rosemary Butler: I invite our next witnesses to come to the table. Are we all wired for sound now? I see that you are. Thank you all for coming this afternoon. When you came to us before you went off to the Commonwealth Games, we asked you to come back. Therefore, Anne, chef de mission, perhaps you would like to introduce your team. [116] Ms Ellis: Thank you for inviting us here, Minister, Chair and Members. It is a particular pleasure to come back after being in the Commonwealth Games. I think that it was the best Commonwealth Games that we have ever been to, but I would say that, would I not? However, it was an outstanding success, not just medal wise, but team wise. That is why I have brought a team today, because we are a team in Wales. You will be pleased to know that my presentation will be short, but I would like my team members to say a few words as we go through. I will introduce them first, and then I will give you a brief overview of the paper that I sent you. Perhaps, we will then have some questions at the end. [117] To start at the end of the table, we have Sarah Head. She is our disabled table tennis player. This was her second games, and I am sure that Sarah will have something to say about it in a moment. Next to her is Kevin Evans, who has brought his silver medal for boxing. These medals are worth looking at—they are superb; he will pass it around. [118] Rosemary Butler: Do not pass it around, or you will not get it back. [Laughter.] [119] Ms Ellis: Kevin was the father figure of the boxing; he won a silver medal, and gave a tremendous performance. I would like you to ask him some questions on boxing, because I learned an awful lot in Melbourne. Boxing is a wonderful sport for young boys. The discipline was superb, and they were brilliant. [120] You know Philip. He does not need an introduction. He is our chairman, and he has worked closely with us. We are grateful to the Sports Council for Wales for its support, because it has been our liaison with you over finance—I will not mention money as yet; I will do that later perhaps. [121] On my left is Betty Morgan, who is an outstanding bowler of world renown. She has a silver medal for bowls, which she will pass around the other way so that the other side of the table can also see it. Betty was a tremendous competitor in the games. She had a very exciting semi-final and final, and I will ask her to say a little about bowls later. On bowls, ‘Climbing Higher’ looks for mass participation and the one sport that I believe can hit that five times a week is bowls. It is good for everyone and is a very active sport. It is very hard work and I learned an awful lot about it when I was in Australia. [122] On the end is a new addition to the Commonwealth Games team, namely Gideon Griffiths. He is one of our elite athletes with disabilities. He is a single leg amputee and these were his first Commonwealth Games. He is a little shy about it, but will, I am sure, say something about his experience in his first games. So, that is our team. The paper that I presented to you gives a brief overview of where we were. I have put on the back wall a photo-diary of the Commonwealth Games, so perhaps you will have a chance to look at it during your tea break. It will stay there until— [123] Rosemary Butler: Do not encourage them to look at that at the moment; I want them to concentrate on you. [124] Ms Ellis: That will give you a brief overview of the Commonwealth Games and it is our diary. You will know that there was a regime change. That is well documented and I will not go into it today. I believe that these games were the best ever. You would expect me to say that, but, hopefully, my colleagues will also support that. We were athlete-focused in these games; everything concerned the athlete. Whatever the athlete felt was important was what we wanted to deliver. [125] We took only 142 athletes—and I am sure that that is an issue given that it was around 80 fewer than we took to the Manchester games—but we said that, in order to go to these games, you had to reach a standard. The standards were the top eight in the Commonwealth Games; in other words, you would reach a final, or, if you were in a team or in an event that demanded semi and quarter-finals, that you should reach the quarter-finals. Those criteria were set with the governing bodies across all sports. So, we did not have some sports that were fairer than others. In other words, a high-profile sport would not be given 30 places simply because it was high-profile. [126] We decided from the outset that every athlete in Wales, whatever sport they were participating in, had to be given the same opportunity. So, every sport had the opportunity to qualify its people. It was expensive, but even if 200 athletes had qualified, we would have found the money for them. As it happened, that figure was 143, and we had felt that it would probably work out at around 150. We lost a few people through injuries and so the final figure came to 143. Scotland had 169 athletes, and included in that number was a hockey team and a basketball team. We did not have a basketball team because, at this point, we do not have teams at that level in Wales. Scotland had around 20 or 30 team members in sports in which we were not competing, so its team was roughly the same size as ours, and it had the same number of headquarter staff, physiotherapists and medics. However, they had fewer team coaches and managers than we did, mainly because we took a bigger disabled team, which, in itself, demands more support staff. So, we were roughly the same as Scotland, which has a population far bigger than ours. [127] On medals, 19 people asked me whether I was disappointed. I was not, because I was targeting between winning 15 and 20. You have to think that, in Manchester, there were six judo medals that were not available to us. There were medals not available to us in weight-lifting. Michaela Breeze, who won the gold in Manchester, won three medals for that one lift because she did the snatch, and the clean and jerk, so she would have won three, which in fact became one. On the table tennis players, if you reached the semi-finals in Manchester, you had a medal. We had table tennis players in the semi-finals at Melbourne, but they did not make the medal play-offs—in Manchester, they would have had a medal just for getting there, so we lost two medals on that. So, in total, there were 10 medals that were not available to us for one reason or another. So, I thought that it was a good performance. [128] The rest of the report details some information on what some sports did, and I draw your attention to Singapore, which bought in their Chinese players. You will see how many medals they won in table tennis—a huge number. So, they jumped ahead of us in the chart, but are we about to buy people in? I think that it is about competing with our people. In some countries, it is easier to get a passport for that country, and that is what it is all about—if you have a passport, you can compete, which is a shame. We, as a Commonwealth Games council, will submit a recommendation that they limit the number of overseas people in teams because, to make it fair to everybody, there should not be too many dominating any particular sport. I do not think that there was anything else that I wanted to mention on that. I have mentioned the governance. I will, at the very end, when Phil comes in, appeal with him for support over the next four years. 2.40 p.m. [129] The athletes will now speak to you briefly—and it will be very brief—but I would just like to say that I have evidence to support everything that has gone on. Yesterday, I received the actual survey that was done of athletes, headquarter staff and team managers. I have just taken a snapshot from that, which I will circulate. There are 10 copies of two lots for you to see the sorts of comments that people have made about the performance of the Commonwealth Games Council for Wales. I will leave those for you, Rosemary, to have a look at it. When Members come back from recess, I will ensure that you have the full survey. It only came to me yesterday, so the council has not seen it yet. The reports that we have done and the independent report that the sports council commissioned from Sheffield Hallam University will also come to you. If you then want to challenge us on any of that in the autumn, then we will come back and be challenged. So, I will leave it at that, with all that information to come to you at a later date. [130] I will now move over for the most important people: my team. Sarah, would you like to start? [131] Ms Head: I have been participating in table tennis for five years. I became disabled 10 years ago. I have taken part in many international competitions, representing Great Britain. The only opportunity that I get to represent Wales is at the Commonwealth Games, making it the pinnacle of my career. Having been to two Commonwealth Games, I found that the games in Melbourne was by far the best event that I have ever participated in, in many ways. Before leaving, athletes were consulted through a panel on what kit would be best. Being part of that made me very proud—to see everyone standing out, looking very smart and being proud to be Welsh. Being thousands of miles away from home, I expected to be, as always, homesick, but it seemed like a home from home, from welcome to finish. [132] The atmosphere in the Welsh camp was unbelievable and it was a feeling that will be very difficult to match. My being an elite athlete with a disability made no difference; we were one team. Everyone there had the same main goals, whether they were athletes or staff. [133] I was very disappointed at only getting to the quarter finals, when I wanted to bring much more home to Wales. As my coach always says, if there is a competition for talking, I would always be a finalist. [134] Alun Pugh: You can be a member of the committee, then. [135] Rosemary Butler: That is fighting talk, Minister. [Laughter.] [136] Ms Head: It was the hard work and tireless effort made by staff, managers, team leaders, sports scientists and funders of the team that gave team Wales every opportunity to perform to its very best. I look towards the future and see that beating the high standards set by team Wales in Melbourne will be very difficult. [137] Athletes were given the support to achieve their best without additional barriers being in their way. That is what made it a successful games for team Wales. It has given me more determination and motivation for the future. I would love another person to experience what I have experienced: the honour of representing Wales. [138] Ms Ellis: Kevin, my star boxer, will go next. [139] Mr Evans: When Anne asked me to come here, I did not realise that it was going to be so formal. I did not know what to expect. Thank you for a great welcome. It has been a pleasure just to see the gardens. I live in Carmarthen and I have never been to visit them, but I am going to have a good look around them afterwards, once the Chair has sorted me out with a cart—[Laughter.] [140] Rosemary Butler: You are not allowed to drive it. [141] Kevin Evans: No. I am looking forward to that. [142] I am Kevin Evans. I have been boxing for 20 years, since the age of 10. I have had over 250 boxing matches. I have won three Commonwealth Games medals, a world medal and six multination gold medals. I have boxed all over the world. I have really enjoyed my sporting days, but, obviously, the pinnacle for a Welsh athlete is to compete in the Commonwealth Games. [143] The last Commonwealth Games, in Melbourne, was far better than any of the other games because it was organised professionally by the Australians and, from the Welsh point of view, because of the amount of work that Anne, David Evans and Phil put in. When we arrived, we had a big team meeting and I felt straight away that we were a part of something really important, something precious to everyone in Wales. They made it so professional for us that it made us nervous, because we wanted to compete and succeed for them as well as for ourselves. As everyone knows, being nervous in sport is good, as it creates speed, and that is exactly what you need when boxing, when you have some gorilla running at you. [Laughter.] It added a lot of pressure as well, but it was great, because everyone knows that there is just a window of opportunity for us all, and if there is no pressure and nothing is at stake, then it is not worth fighting for. [144] The games were tremendous, and I thank you all very much for supporting the sport council. I also thank the sports council, because my ambition on leaving school at 16 years of age was to own my own market stall in Carmarthen. I succeeded at that by the age of 18, and I then realised that I had set my goals a little bit low. I thought, ‘There’s got to be more to life than this’. That is when I decided to chuck myself into my sport, and I sacrificed. When you win a medal in the games, like the one that I have passed around, that is what it is all about. There is no money involved; it is an amateur sport, but that medal there means more to me than anything. Competing for Wales in the games is like a natural drug—something that you cannot buy in the chemist or inject into your arm; you have to work for it, make sacrifices and, once you succeed, there is nothing better. I therefore thank you all for supporting us. [145] Rosemary Butler: Thank you. Is my friend Gideon going to say anything? [146] Ms Ellis: I am going to ask Gideon to speak, and then Betty. [147] Mr Griffiths: Oh, we are going to me first, are we? [148] Ms Ellis: I know that you are shy, and you only want to say one or two words. [149] Mr Griffiths: Just a short one, then. I have been competing now for just over a year, and I was lucky enough to get selected for the powerlifting. It was an awesome trip—the trip of a lifetime. The team is very close-knit, and you could not want nicer people around you, support staff and athletes. The team spirit spurs you on to perform better. Unfortunately, I did not win a medal, but I got a personal best, which I put down to being in an elite atmosphere with all the other athletes in the village. It was an excellent time. [150] Ms Ellis: Well done, Gideon. Betty will finish up. [151] Ms Morgan: First, I think that I am the granny figure among these children, these athletes. This was my fourth Commonwealth Games, and it was my first medal, so you can tell how thrilled I was. It was a games in which everybody was superb—it was like a family, and I have not said so publicly, but Anne, as the leader, was first class. [152] Ms Ellis: I did not ask you to say that. [Laughter.] [153] Ms Morgan: I know you did not, but thank you, Anne. [154] I have played outdoor international bowls for 29 years and indoor internationals for 13 years. Until the latter years, I paid for all accommodation and travel expenses. With the recent grant, Pay to Play, these expenses have, naturally, been reduced, but they are still in the region of £250. On top of this, new caps have to purchase their blazers, ties, red shoes and polo shirts. I feel that talent has been lost due to the excessive costs for these, and of course the same applies to the Atlantic rim games and world bowls. [155] Another factor that I think affects sport people is that of time off from the workplace. I took early retirement in 1996 because Powys County Council would no longer grant me extra time for me to represent my country. Also, just speaking about bowls, nationally, I find that media coverage is not good for bowls. In June, the Welsh women’s team won the home international series, actually achieving the grand slam. Had this been achieved by any other country, I wonder what coverage would have been given. [156] Although a minority sport, bowls is a very strong sport at all levels. At ladies’ world championships, medals have been received in every games since 1977, except for 1981. At the Commonwealth Games, medals have been received, except for 1990, and medals have been received in all Atlantic rim games. While we are now far more professionally prepared, ‘poor relation’ is a term that still has to be referred to in terms of training and rewards. I will just give you a classic example. The gold medallist in my discipline was Malaysian. Lina was released from her job in the police force, coached to the hilt, and a new car was provided on her return. Every member of the Australian Commonwealth Games team each received $13,000. My silver medal gained me some publicity, about which I was very pleased. 2.50 p.m. [157] You may not think so, but bowls provides tremendous exercise. Games last up to four hours, and there is often more than one game in a day. Bowls is for all ages, and both genders. In fact, as some of you might have heard before, bowls used to be referred to as ‘old men’s marbles’, but now it is a young man’s game, although old men can play it. I have three little lines to put you: I beg that you, as Members of the Assembly, give serious consideration to raising the profile of the Welsh team in any way possible so that we can compete on a more level playing field. [158] Rosemary Butler: Thank you very much. That was excellent. Phil, do you want to say something now, or after the questions? [159] Mr Carling: Obviously, I do not want to dwell on the past, either. We know how embarrassing that was and how things have turned around. In pushing for this change, we were quite lucky, as a sports council, to have in our team David Evans and Anne, because what we asked the Commonwealth Games council to do in nine months was almost ridiculous, but it did it. We heard a lot about volunteers with the gardens, and we have to remember that the Commonwealth Games council is made up of volunteers, and that is a tremendous credit to them. You heard from the athletes and, for me as a visitor, the games were absolutely tremendous, and it was a privilege to be there. I would also like to thank the Minister for his support. I know that many people talk about jollies, but I do not think that going to Melbourne for 36 hours could ever be considered a jolly, and it was great to see the Assembly Government represented at Melbourne. [160] The future is what concerns us now, and we can build on a very successful model for the future. There will be, as Anne would agree, a complete analysis of the team and support staff, and of what worked or did not work so well, as well as of the size of the team and the support staff. There will also be an attempt to increase the identity of the team over the four-year period, which is important for several reasons. [161] Funding is a little vague, really. The sports council provided a massive amount of time and a considerable amount of money to this team in conjunction with Health Challenge Wales, which sponsored the team to the amount of £150,000, which was very welcome and was also great as it is an ongoing programme of the athletes from the teams appearing in schools and promoting Health Challenge Wales, which will go on and roll out for some considerable time. [162] If the sports council continues to fund this in an ad-hoc way, the money with which we fund it has to come from somewhere else. So, something else is suffering in support of the team, but the team is a major priority for Wales. It is well worth promoting over a long time for several reasons. The cost of sending the team to Delhi will be about £1 million. Of that, £250,000 will be found by the Commonwealth Games Council in kind in support for uniforms. It is reasonable that it might raise in the region of £250,000 in sponsorship, although that is a tremendously difficult target, because, what you are offering a sponsor at the moment is support for a team that is invisible for three and a half years and then appears on the other side of the world for three weeks. That is not actually a wonderful branding opportunity, so it is terribly difficult to get support. However, I believe that we should raise the team’s profile, and the team should exist almost from now until the next games in some form or another as a way of running holding camps for prospective members and keeping the thing going, which should help for a number of reasons. It would help to maintain the tremendous team spirit that has been built in Melbourne, and it will also help with the profile and provide opportunities for sponsors. We must look at that, but we do need £500,000 in addition, in cash, to send the team—which is not a fortune over four years at £125,000 a year. The funding of the games at the moment is a little off the radar, and it is very important for sport in Wales, having seen what can be achieved in a very short time, as an inspiration to the rest of the country, and as part of the ‘Climbing Higher’ focus. [163] The value of the Olympic Games in 2012 is inspirational, although I am supporting the party line, which is to win so many medals that we finish fourth in the medal table. The biggest gain of having the Olympic Games is as an inspiration to sport in the UK. Similarly, the Commonwealth Games, handled in the right way, can become that, and can play a major part in ‘Climbing Higher’, in terms of inspiring people and in fulfilling the excellence targets that are in it. In hammering home the participation requirements, across communities, of the ‘Climbing Higher’ programme, we sometimes forget that there are also targets of excellence in it, which is very important. [164] So, we have a tremendous base on which to work. We cannot pretend that everything works properly, but we are very lucky to have Anne Ellis and David Evans. Most of the things that did not go as planned were sport-specific, in terms of sporting performance, rather than organisation, which is not the role of the council. Those things are being heavily addressed by us at the moment to ensure that sports deliver. So, from a sports council point of view, it was a massively successful exercise carried out in a ludicrously short period of time. It gives us a model for the future on which we can work for the benefit of Wales, and sport in Wales as a whole. [165] Rosemary Butler: Thank you. It is a real privilege to have you here this afternoon. It makes us feel quite humble. When we finish talking to you, can I ask you to pass your medals to the other people in the room? They are green with envy that we have had a look at them. I am particularly thrilled because, as a member of the sports council and having been involved in discussions with the former Commonwealth Games organisation with Anne, we tried to turn things around 10 years ago. To see that it has turned around is fantastic. We have a really good base to work from, and, as you say, with the £150,000 a year, we can have a team that is there all the time. We will start with questions from Eleanor this time, because we finished with her last time. [166] Eleanor Burnham: If you had a funding wish list, how much would it cost to do what you have just asked for, in terms of maintaining the existence of the team during the next four years? [167] Mr Carling: I do not think that it will cost a great deal to maintain the existence of the team. When I talked about £125,000 a year as an annual budget for the team towards the team, it sounds a lot easier to achieve than if we were to suddenly ask for £500,000 in year four—that was my thinking. In the figures that I have given, it would include maintenance of the team profile and progression through to the games. [168] Val Lloyd: I do not have a direct question as such, Chair, because I have been overwhelmed by—I would not call it raw emotion, but it is something like that. Please do not think that I am going to burst into tears, but I am very proud— [169] Rosemary Butler: The Record of Proceedings does not know how to record ‘burst into tears’. [Laughter.] [170] Val Lloyd: I am always proud to be Welsh, but I feel particularly proud today to have people of the calibre that are sitting in front of us, not only for their sporting achievements, but also for their dedication and perseverance, as well as their ability to put their case forward. I rest my case on that. [171] Rosemary Butler: Thank you. Lisa? [172] Lisa Francis: I reiterate that—we are all overwhelmed by what you have told us, and you have obviously had a fantastic experience. I hope that you get to repeat that. Thank you for representing our country so well. [173] The future is very important. I notice that the sports council has said that it hopes to fund a part-time general secretary and make available relevant technical staff at the appropriate time. How far down the line do you hope to do that? Is it from now or in a couple of years’ time? [174] Ms Ellis: We have just appointed a part-time executive secretary, who started this week. So, we have started on that road. He is doing 24 or 25 hours a week. We are leaving it a little fluid at the moment, because it might be that we need a more full-time post in years two and three, but we will see how it goes. We must then approach the sports council to see whether the expertise that we need can be released to support the team when they go. 3.00 p.m. [175] Mr Carling: There is no danger of that not happening. One of the major benefits for the sports council was to have our scientists, nutritionists, physiotherapists and psychologists massively involved in this sporting event. In the past, they have been dealing with athletes who, after three and a half years, went off and were looked after by a couple of GPs from Ammanford. I think that it is massively beneficial for our people to be involved in the team. We will always give whatever support of that type that we can give to the Commonwealth Games. [176] Lisa Francis: It would be useful, Chair, to have progress updates over the next four years. That is very important. [177] Rosemary Butler: We will arrange that. [178] Lisa Francis: Thank you for all that you did for the Commonwealth Games this year, it was fantastic. [179] Owen John Thomas: Mae fy nghwestiwn Owen John Thomas: My first question is to cyntaf i Kevin. Yr wyf yn gadael y Cynulliad ym Kevin. I am leaving the Assembly in May, mis Mai, Kevin—arhosaf i chi wisgo’ch Kevin—I will wait for you to put on your clustffonau. Yr oeddwn yn meddwl bod pawb yn headphones. I thought that everyone in y farchnad yng Nghaerfyrddin yn siarad Cymraeg. Carmarthen market spoke Welsh. [180] Mr Evans: That is why I had to give up. [181] Owen John Thomas: Yr wyf yn gadael y Owen John Thomas: I am leaving the Cynulliad ym mis Mai ac yr oeddwn yn aelod o Assembly in May and I was a member of a glwb paffio pan oeddwn yn fachgen. A ydych yn boxing club as a boy. Do you think that it is too meddwl ei bod yn rhy hwyr i mi baratoi ar gyfer y late for me to get myself ready for the next gemau nesaf? [Chwerthin.] Does dim rhaid i chi games? [Laughter.] You do not have to answer ateb y cwestiwn hwnnw. that. [182] Pa fuddsoddiad sy’n gwneud yr elw mwyaf From what investment do you get the best ichi? Pe baech yn cael swm o arian i’w roi yn return? If you had a sum of money to invest rhywle i gefnogi’r gemau ac athletau yng somewhere to support the games and athletics in Nghymru, ym mhle y byddech yn ei wario i gael Wales, where would you spend it to get the yr elw gorau? greatest return? [183] Mae fy nghwestiwn olaf yn seiliedig ar My final question is based on a decision taken benderfyniad a wnaed yn y Cynulliad yr wythnos by the Assembly last week. The Assembly diwethaf. Penderfynodd y Cynulliad yn decided unanimously—that is, everyone from unfrydol—hynny yw, penderfynodd pawb o bob every party who voted agreed—to try to attract plaid a bleidleisiodd—i geisio denu Gemau’r the Commonwealth Games to Wales in 2018 or Gymanwlad i Gymru ar gyfer 2018 neu wedi thereafter. What do you think of that proposal? hynny. Beth ydych chi’n ei feddwl o’r cynnig hwnnw? [184] Mr Carling: On asking for a wishlist in terms of money, it is an ongoing debate. We talk to the Minister and Assembly officials about the budget. We know what our budgets are some time in advance, and the definition of priorities—for example, deciding whether something is an elite sport—is an ongoing thing. That is quite a difficult question. If we had another £1 million to spend, it would affect the balance of everything. We would not necessarily spend the whole £1 million on something new; it would be allocated according to existing priorities because that is how we operate. [185] Ms Ellis: May I add to that? Having experienced the games now, we are keen on prioritising, and we prioritise eight or nine sports. However, you heard Betty’s case, and boxing’s case, and such sports, which are very good sports for people to take part in; they must have more investment. The sports council’s money, as Phil was saying, must not be spread too thinly over everything. With more investment, we could be looking at what we call ‘the smaller sports’, because they bring good results and we should be investing in those sports. However, you should not spread the jam too thinly, and if you prioritise your top-eight or top-10 sports, obviously someone will be missing out somewhere. [186] Mr Carling: In terms of medals, I think that we had 12 or 13 fourth places. Part of the idea that we are talking about, to have the team working together over a four-year period, is to try to turn as many as possible of those fourth places into medals. We also need to have a debate about whether medals are what we want. For example, if we spent another £100,000 a year on shooting, we might pick up two shooting medals, but it would not be proportional to the rest of Welsh sport. What the shooters really need is international competition. It is not just a case of winning medals; it is a much bigger equation than that and we have to decide where medals fit in to the big picture. In the Olympic debate the question was, ‘If we choose a couple of so-called ‘joke’ sports and invest a few million pounds in them, will we be guaranteed a medal and, if we did that, would it be worth it?’. That is the type of question that we debate all the time. [187] Rosemary Butler: Eleanor, would you like to come in? [188] Eleanor Burnham: It seems to me— [189] Owen John Thomas: Beth am y cwestiwn Owen John Thomas: What about the question ar y gemau yn dod i Gymru? on the games coming to Wales? [190] Rosemary Butler: Sorry. What is your response to the possibility of the games coming here? [191] Ms Ellis: It would be fantastic if the Welsh Assembly Government was prepared to commit £300 million to facilities in one area. That would be phenomenal, and I would be delighted if it happened. However, it is £300 million—we have to be realistic about it—just to provide the facilities, and then you have to bring in all the other things that must come with it. I would love it to happen, but the bar has been raised so high that it is frightening. It is frightening that India is paying for everyone’s flights to the next games—that is how it won the games. Scotland does not know whether it has won the games for 2014; if it does win, nothing will come to us for a good 10 or 15 years after that because of our proximity. If it does not win, 2018 could be open to us. Scotland already has a number of facilities in one place. The facilities have to be in one area. So, we would have to hit an area, and that is where it would have to be, because people would not travel 50 miles; the Commonwealth Games would not accept it. [192] Having said that, it would be wonderful. I would support the £300 million and the other things that are needed. It would take four years of work, with around 200 staff—that is what Melbourne had, working in the World Trade Centre. They have raised the bar, and it is frightening for the rest of us. However, I would be delighted if the Welsh Assembly Government would commit to that. [193] Eleanor Burnham: Mine is a throwaway comment in that you are far more cost-effective than the English football World Cup squad. I believe that the team took its own personal this, that, and the other, including chefs. What sort of cost per person, compared with that— [194] Rosemary Butler: I do not think that you can compare anything with that, Eleanor. [195] Ms Ellis: I do not know what the cost per person was. I think that, for us, the airfare was the most expensive cost, at almost £1,000 per person. [196] Mr Carling: It is 220 people, so you are talking about £800,000. [197] Owen John Thomas: You did not have any red cards, did you? [198] Ms Ellis: No. [199] Rosemary Butler: Thank you; that was a real privilege. We will now break for tea and coffee, and we will have a look at the photographs. Thank you for coming. It is nice that we are here, because you can go out in your buggy and have a look around, but if we had been in Cardiff, the meeting would have been televised. Thank you. [200] Ms Ellis: May I leave this information with you? It gives a snapshot of what we have said. In the car, I have our handbooks, which people felt were the best handbooks in the Commonwealth Games. I will drop those off before I go. [201] Rosemary Butler: Okay, but I will get the last word in, so shut up for a minute. I thank you, Anne, not just for what you have done for the Commonwealth Games, but for sport generally, and hockey in particular. You are a credit to Wales, and I seriously thank you. Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 3.07 p.m. a 3.18 a.m. The meeting adjourned between 3.07 p.m. and 3.18 a.m. Adolygiad o Bêl-droed yng Nghymru—Papur Materion Review of Football in Wales—Issues Paper [202] Rosemary Butler: Thank you very much for coming back so promptly. We will now look at the issues that have arisen from the evidence that we have taken on football so far. These are only the issues that have arisen and what we need to start putting in the report. On 28 September, we will hopefully have the Football Association of Wales, the Union of European Football Associations, which has accepted the invitation, and the Welsh Local Government Association here. The invitation has gone to the FAW, so we are waiting to hear from it. However, it will be quite a big meeting. There is still a lot of evidence to come, but we can actually work on the skeleton of the report. The appendices can certainly be compiled. These are the issues that have been raised. [203] In the introduction on page 2, as a number of you have mentioned, we do not have reference to the poor national results, which I think that we need to put in there. The fact that the Welsh team has not actually done anything since 1950, or whatever it was, is something that everyone has raised. [204] Alun Pugh: It was 1958. [205] Rosemary Butler: Thank you, Minister. I think that we need to put that in. Also, on page 3, the last bullet point before ‘Football Development’ states: ‘The views of UEFA on arrangements in Wales’. [206] That was only hearsay from the gentleman from Rhyl Football Club, I think. I am not sure whether that warrants saying, ‘The views of the UEFA on arrangements in Wales’. It needs to be rephrased slightly because it was only one person who said that. 3.20 p.m. [207] Under ‘Football Development’, the third bullet point notes that there is, ‘Too much fragmentation in football development, with schools, the FAW Trust and the League of Wales’ clubs trying to do different things.’ [208] I believe that they are all trying to play football, but they are probably going in different directions. Therefore, is that wording rather loose? [209] Eleanor Burnham: It is ambiguous. [210] Rosemary Butler: Yes, that is the word—‘ambiguous’. Under ‘Volunteers’, we should have another bullet point there about shortages, because they said how short they were on volunteers. Under ‘Women and Girls’ Football’, the first bullet point notes that, ‘it is a tragedy that there are no women referees on the international list’. [211] Using the word ‘tragedy’ is probably rather over the top. Someone may have said that, but ‘disappointing’ might be a better word. [212] Val Lloyd: They are getting there, are they not? [213] Rosemary Butler: Yes. Using the word ‘tragedy’ is probably a bit— [214] Eleanor Burnham: How about ‘extremely disappointing’? [215] Rosemary Butler: Whatever—someone can come up with something, but it is not a tragedy. [216] Owen John Thomas: You could say that there is an urgent need for more women referees, or something like that. [217] Rosemary Butler: Yes. Under ‘Women and Girls’ Football’, we should put something in about changing accommodation, because that was an issue; where you have a club, you need changing accommodation for men and women if they are playing at the same time. It is all right if one is playing today and one is playing tomorrow, but we need more changing accommodation. Those were my thoughts. [218] Val Lloyd: Could we add something about pitches, because we heard a reasonable amount of evidence that pitches were not as good as they used to be? [219] Eleanor Burnham: And they are not as good as the ones that they have in England. [220] Rosemary Butler: I believe that that is under ‘Facilities’, on page 5; those bullet points mention the disparity in the infrastructure, the serious, ongoing problems with quality, the challenge for local authorities in matching supply and demand, and the fact that the state of pitches is below standard in schools, leisure centres and local authorities, in contrast to other countries. [221] Val Lloyd: That is a good sentence, because it says that the standard is poor and below what is should be in three different areas, and that it is in contrast to other countries. Therefore, it is per se and in comparative terms. [222] Rosemary Butler: I went through the paper rather quickly. Therefore, on the first page, I believe that those are the issues, which are generally well recorded. We will flick through the paper page by page, and if anyone wants to note anything that they may have marked up, please do so. The child protection issue is well covered. [223] Eleanor Burnham: That was refuted, was it not, by the evidence of Cledwyn Ashford, and the people with whom he was giving evidence that day? [224] Rosemary Butler: What was refuted? [225] Eleanor Burnham: He refuted the allegation that there was a child protection issue. [226] Rosemary Butler: What I said was that I thought that it is well covered here. They are doing a lot on child protection, but the Children’s Commissioner for Wales had an issue on that. [227] Annex 1 is a list of the evidence to committee; annex 2 is just the terms of reference. Therefore, are you happy for the clerks to start firming up on the skeleton of the report, with these points in it, taking on board the fact that we have three major people giving us evidence in September? We are due to discuss this in Plenary on 5 December. I do not want to lose that slot, because I would like to do it this year, and get it out of the way. However, we may need to have an extended meeting to cover the final report, or, as we have done with our other reports, have an informal meeting. I know that there is some discussion about the last informal meeting, but we may need to have one just to work through it, otherwise we may not get it finished. Therefore, if we can find time, and if it is necessary, we will have another session, but it might be that we are okay. I just want to warn people that we want to stick to the guideline of 5 December. However, the meeting on 28 December will be a very interesting one. We will circulate appropriate questions and very specific ones, particularly for UEFA and the FAW. We will not need preambles, just straight questions. [228] Eleanor Burnham: We will go straight for the jugular. [229] Rosemary Butler: This is all being recorded, Eleanor. Record of Proceedings staff, could you please fudge that sentence? [230] Val Lloyd: You are right, Chair; the questions are very important and must be covered. I do not advocate this as a general rule, but could we first discuss areas of questioning? [231] Rosemary Butler: We can have a session before the meeting starts and allocate questions. [232] Val Lloyd: Yes, so that we cover everything without duplication. That is not something that I would suggest normally. [233] Lisa Francis: When they held a Welsh Joint Affairs Committee meeting in the Assembly, we had 30 minutes at the start before kicking off, which was quite useful. [234] Rosemary Butler: We have done that in the past, but I tend to let you ask your own questions usually. However, in this case, there will be so many questions that you want to ask, it would be helpful if we did not ask the same things. I am not being disparaging, but if we could cut out the preambles, which are all very interesting, it will help because it will be quite a long session. So, if anyone has any questions to suggest, that would be helpful. Are there any other comments on this report? I see that there are none. 3.26 p.m. Blaenraglen Waith Drafft Draft Forward Work Programme [235] Rosemary Butler: Right, the next item is the dreaded draft forward work programme. We spend more time talking about what we are going to be talking about than actually doing it. We have to try to draw everything to a conclusion so that when the committee finishes in May, there is no outstanding work. So, that is the important point. [236] Most matters are included in the programme. The one thing that is not included is the historic environment White Paper, because we do not know when that will be published. We are still waiting for it; we do not have any news. [237] Lisa Francis: Is it scheduled for September? [238] Rosemary Butler: We do not know. The date is going up and down like a yo-yo at the moment. That is the one that we said that we would do. [239] The Welsh-language scheme is coming up on 28 September. However, I propose that on 13 December—and it is entirely up to committee whether we do this—we have a discussion on the Welsh Language Board, which will be our only opportunity as a committee to discuss it before it goes to Plenary. Am I right? [240] Ms Annand: The committee will finish in March, and we do not know whether there will be a culture committee in the future, so it will be your last opportunity to make your views known and have them on the record, if you want a discussion on the Welsh-language scheme. [241] Rosemary Butler: You have time to think about that. You were not happy to discuss it at the last meeting. I think that it would be very helpful for this committee to have on record what its feelings are. [242] Eleanor Burnham: My only other request—and I know that it is not devolved, but it is important to look at what happens from the European perspective—is for an update on broadcasting and where we are at. [243] Rosemary Butler: To be honest, I do not think that we will have time to discuss that in committee, so we will get you a paper on that. Nothing new has come up on that. All the reviews and proposals have come out. You can see that time is tight; if there is a slot, we can have a general discussion on that. [244] Eleanor Burnham: Also, on European issues, European legislation impinges on us all. [245] Rosemary Butler: That is included. [246] Owen John Thomas: Ar etifeddiaeth Owen John Thomas: On historical heritage, do hanesyddol, a oes raid i ni aros i San Steffan we have to wait for Westminster to move on this symud ar y mater hwn oherwydd yr oeddem yn ei matter because we were discussing it before we drafod cyn inni wybod y byddai San Steffan yn knew that Westminster was going to do gwneud rhywbeth amdano? Felly, beth sy’n ein something on it? So, what is preventing us from rhwystro rhag mynd ymlaen? Os ydym am moving on? If we are to develop cultural ddatblygu twristiaeth ddiwylliannol, er enghraifft, tourism, for example, it is very important that mae’n bwysig ein bod yn edrych ar y cyfleoedd i we look at the opportunities for doing so by wneud hynny drwy dynnu sylw at ein drawing attention to our historical heritage. hetifeddiaeth hanesyddol. 3.30 p.m. [247] Rosemary Butler: Yes, you are right. We did say that we would talk about it and then we put it off because of this White Paper. We will try to find something, but we are going to have to swap things around that we really have to finish off. [248] Owen John Thomas: Ym mis Tachwedd, Owen John Thomas: In November, we will be byddwn yn trafod Cronfa Dreftadaeth y Loteri, yn discussing the Heritage Lottery Fund, according ôl hwn, ac mae cysylltiadau amlwg rhwng to this, and there are clear links between treftadaeth ac etifeddiaeth. heritage and etifeddiaeth. [249] Rosemary Butler: Yes, we can certainly look at that, but it depends on how long the football review will take. European cultural funds is also quite an interesting topic, but it is just for information, so we could perhaps look at finding time there. The one thing that we do not have is a slot for the Stephens panel to come to committee. What you have there is a report for the Minister on a Plenary debate, which is slightly different from the panel coming to us and just giving its overview before the Minister presents in committee, but that is something for the Stephens committee. We can offer a slot, but it may feel that it is not appropriate to come or whatever. [250] Owen John Thomas: Deallaf fod y Owen John Thomas: I understand that the Gweinidog wedi paratoi papur ar etifeddiaeth Minister has prepared a paper on cultural ddiwylliannol. Efallai y gallai hwnnw fod yn heritage. Perhaps that could be a discussion bapur trafod fel y gallwn ddechrau symud ymlaen paper so that we can start moving forward and a datblygu’r syniadau sydd ynddo. developing the ideas contained in it. [251] Rosemary Butler: We said that we would have a look at that for— [252] Owen John Thomas: Ie, ond dim ond Owen John Thomas: Yes, but I am just tynnu sylw ydwyf at y ffaith bod y Gweinidog drawing attention to the fact that the Minister wedi gwneud rhywbeth arno eisoes, a hynny yn has already done something on it, quite recently. ddiweddar. [253] Rosemary Butler: Do you want his paper? I thought that you were going to present us with one. [254] Owen John Thomas: Man cychwyn fyddai Owen John Thomas: Alun’s paper would be a papur Alun, onid e? starting point, would it not? [255] Rosemary Butler: Right, we have agreed 15 November, okay? [256] Owen John Thomas: Iawn. Owen John Thomas: Fine. [257] Alun Pugh: A joint White Paper is going to be produced by us and by colleagues in the Department for Culture, Media and Sport in due course. That will lead to legislation, of course. It is planned that the legislation will give powers to the Assembly to bring forward its own measure- making to make any changes necessary to preserve the historic environment. That is a very clean process: a White Paper will lead to Westminster legislation, which will then give the Assembly additional legislative powers. We could produce a paper but, given that that well-oiled process is well under way—although this is a matter for committee, of course—I would suggest that it is probably better to wait until we have a proper White Paper with legislative proposals to discuss, rather than just getting something from us, or a paper commissioned by the committee. [258] Rosemary Butler: Owen John’s point is quite well made in that we have to have everything finished by March and, if we do not slot it in for discussion, we might never get the committee’s views on it. So, at the moment, we will slot it in for November but, if there is any progress, we might be able to slip it back a month and have a far more in-depth discussion. It is certainly in there, Owen John. [259] Does anyone else have anything? It is flexible. [260] Eleanor Burnham: I notice that 9 a.m. is the start time for various committee meetings, but not for others. Has it been decided yet whether they will be at 9 a.m. or at different times? [261] Rosemary Butler: Well, they have always been at 9 a.m.. [262] Val Lloyd: I think that those are in the afternoon, Chair. That is why they do not have a starting time. That is from my memory of my diary. [263] Rosemary Butler: I forgot that we do afternoons as well. [264] Eleanor Burnham: I just wanted to clarify that. [265] Mr Cox: It is Wednesday, so it would be a Plenary afternoon. [266] Val Lloyd: So, it cannot be in the afternoon. Good point. [267] Rosemary Butler: We will get you the times, Eleanor. [268] Eleanor Burnham: It is all right; I have just realised the issue. [269] Lisa Francis: If time is an issue, I am happy to come in half an hour earlier in the morning, but I do not know whether other people would be. [270] Rosemary Butler: We cannot start the formal meetings earlier, because there would be no broadcasting, so there are technical reasons why we cannot start. We can always extend the meeting, but going into the lunch hour is always difficult. We must find a way around it somehow. Is there anything else on that? I see that there is not. 3.35 p.m. Adroddiad y Gweinidog Minister’s Report [271] Rosemary Butler: It is quite a comprehensive report, so I am sure that the Minister does not need to make a long introduction to it. [272] The Minister for Culture, Welsh Language and Sport (Alun Pugh): No indeed, Chair. However, I would like to put a bit of meat on the bones of the statement issued by the Finance Minister this week. Members will know that ‘Climbing Higher’ is the Assembly’s flagship programme for developing a mass-participation culture in sport and active recreation. We will be issuing a next-steps paper on 26 July, which is effectively a spreadsheet showing the budgetary commitments of additional Assembly Government investment. So, that paper will come out on 26 July, and we are doing a formal launch of it in Caerphilly. Earlier this week, the Finance Minister made an important announcement about additional capital funding for active lifestyles. On Tuesday, Sue Essex announced an additional capital investment for this current financial year of some £11 million, which came from budget consequentials provided by the 2006 UK budget. I am pleased to say that my portfolio has received a significant proportion of that funding in support of developing the health and wellbeing of the people of Wales. Some £4 million during this current financial year will be injected as capital funding to develop community active-lifestyle venues. [273] The types of programme that we have in mind are low-cost capital adaptations to existing indoor and outdoor community facilities, which are easily accessible and have the potential to be well used by local people daily. Many of us who are active in sport and recreation know of old-style changing rooms that are no longer in a reasonable physical condition and need a capital programme of modernisation for new showers, new boilers and, basically, a lick of paint. That is what this is about: small-scale capital projects. We are talking about community centres, village halls and school playing fields where these facilities are available for community use. [274] This innovative programme will contribute to the development of new solutions, in response to our Health Challenge Wales campaign. We will be giving further details of the exact breakdown, including the regional breakdown, in the coming weeks, and it will feature as part of the ‘Climbing Higher’ announcement at the end of July, which I have already mentioned. [275] That £4 million is the most significant news from the Finance Minister’s statement, but, as well as that funding, I was also able to collect an additional £125,000 into our historic Wales budget to help Cadw to provide improved facilities for people with sensory impairments. You will recall that we have a programme of upgrading the Cadw Assembly Government estate to provide enhanced facilities for access to people with disabilities. This is a further £125,000 to take that programme forward. Improvements will be made at sites such as Castell Coch and Plas Mawr in Conwy, and the two things will work together to enhance the visitor experience there. [276] I will stop at that point, Chair, because much of the rest of what I have to say is in the report, and I know that Members will want to ask questions. I guess that people will want to ask questions particularly about our announcement regarding the new arrangements for creating the dyfarnydd. [277] Rosemary Butler: Could you just clarify something, Alun? You said that this money is to be spent on refurbishing buildings, but is it for buildings that are already being used for sporting activities? [278] Alun Pugh: It is a £4 million capital investment and improvement programme, and we are looking, effectively, at small-scale schemes, where the injection of perhaps £20,000, £30,000 or £40,000-worth of capital money would make a big difference. 3.40 p.m. [279] We are all aware of many changing rooms that were okay perhaps 20 years ago but which have fallen on hard times. I am not sure whether £20,000 to £30,000 would necessarily create massive new build, though I would not want to rule that out. [280] Rosemary Butler: What I am trying to get at, really, is that most of this will be owned by local authorities, I assume. [281] Alun Pugh: Much of it will be owned by local authorities, yes. [282] Rosemary Butler: Therefore, we are putting in additional money to refurbish places, which authorities should be doing already. What I am saying is that they are getting the money twice, really. So, you are not looking for places that do not have any changing facilities; you are looking to refurbish existing ones, which local authorities, possibly, should have been spending the money on in the first place. [283] Alun Pugh: It could be local authorities; it could be voluntary groups. Many sports facilities are owned by charitable and voluntary groups, of course. As well as the refurbishment of existing facilities, it would also allow a charitable body, voluntary group, local authority, town council or church grounds or whatever to come up with proposals to install a green gym in their grounds or to put in additional bike racks or signage—that type of fairly modest capital improvement that would actually make a difference to activity levels. So, it is not exclusively for refurbishments, but refurbishments would certainly be eligible. [284] Rosemary Butler: Fine. How do they access that? Is it via the sports council, or community chest? [285] Alun Pugh: No. We will be making a formal statement on the publication of distribution arrangements later this month. [286] Rosemary Butler: That is fine, because it is really exciting stuff, and it is nice for us to know. [287] Eleanor Burnham: When you say ‘later this month’, will it be during recess? If so, we will not really be able to question its worth. What do you mean by ‘green gym’, Minister? Please remind me. [288] Rosemary Butler: You are the gardener. [Laughter.] [289] Alun Pugh: First of all, the document will be available, and we will certainly make an announcement over the web about the detail of it. Members have already been given, in Plenary, the outline and the big numbers. Of course, the Government will not be in recess for the summer. We will be delighted to enter into detailed correspondence, and we will make sure that you get a copy of all the relevant documentation. The Government will be active very much throughout summer. [290] As to what a green gym is, Bute park in the middle of Cardiff is one example. There are a number of outdoor workstations, if you like. There are bars, step-ups and small pieces of outdoor activity equipment to allow people to do minor steps and so on. [291] Rosemary Butler: It sounds like torture in a park. You do not really want to know, Eleanor. [Laughter.] [292] Eleanor Burnham: And where do we have those in north Wales, Minister? [293] Alun Pugh: Many local authorities already have these things in their parks. [294] Eleanor Burnham: In north Wales? [295] Alun Pugh: Yes. [296] Eleanor Burnham: Okay, fine. [297] Val Lloyd: Can I come in on that? It is not only that—and I do not mean that disrespectfully, Minister. We have one in Swansea in the Cadle grounds, where people make paths. It is like a farm for children as well as adults, and so you are working in the open air. You are not just planting or harvesting plants, but laying paths and such things. [298] Rosemary Butler: They used to be called fitness trails. [299] Eleanor Burnham: Yes, and I was going to say that there used to be old-fashioned outdoor swimming pools. You do not see many people using those these days. [300] On the creative industries, I know that this does not fall within your budget these days, but could you give us some indication of what is happening, and who is being funded, and by how much? [301] Alun Pugh: You may want to put that either as a written question or as a form of correspondence to Andrew Davies, as I am not responsible for that part of the budget. [302] Eleanor Burnham: All right, but surely, as Minister for culture, you are aware of what is going on in the creative industries, because they are obviously creative. [303] Rosemary Butler: We have had this discussion before. We feel, and Alun feels, that much of this should be in his portfolio. [304] Eleanor Burnham: Yes. I do, too. [305] Rosemary Butler: However, creative industries are still seen as economic development matters, and that is the way it is, unfortunately. [306] Eleanor Burnham: But as a cross-cutting themed Government, I would be hopeful that— [307] Rosemary Butler: I think that I will write in and ask for what you want to know and then share the answer with the rest of the committee. [308] Eleanor Burnham: That is very kind of you. [309] The other thing was ‘Iaith Pawb’ and the dyfarnydd issue. I am not quite sure now, as I am rather confused as to the legality of what is going on and the dyfarnydd’s appointment and so on. Can you clarify that please? [310] Nid wyf yn siwr a wyf yn deall yn union. Yr I am not certain whether I understand exactly. I oeddwn yn gofyn am eglurhad o’r sefyllfa was just asking for an explanation of where we gyfreithiol o ran y dyfarnydd. Yr oeddwn yn stand legally in terms of the dyfarnydd. I meddwl ein bod wedi penderfynu na fyddem yn thought that we had decided that we would not cael gwared o Fwrdd yr Iaith Gymraeg. Byddwn get rid of the Welsh Language Board. I would yn ddiolchgar am eglurhad ar hynny. be grateful for an explanation on that. [311] Rosemary Butler: On that, the terms of reference of the job have also not come to us. [312] Eleanor Burnham: A hefyd yr amserlen Eleanor Burnham: And also the timetable that sydd gan y Gweinidog ar gyfer y materion pwysig the Minister has for these important issues. hyn. [313] Alun Pugh: In relation to the creation of the dyfarnydd, you will recall that the purpose of the policy was to do two things. First of all, it was to improve democratic accountability in Wales, and, secondly, we feel that the merger of the board into the heart of the Assembly Government makes it easier to achieve our agreed vision of growing the number of Welsh speakers in Wales. That was the policy rationale behind the merger. We consulted on the details of that merger, including a draft job description for the dyfarnydd’s office, a few months ago. The consultation has now closed. You will recall that we proposed to do this in two separate stages. In other words, there would have been a transfer of partial functions of the Welsh Language Board, particularly those functions dealing with the regulation of Welsh language schemes, and there would have been a partial transfer of the Welsh Language Board’s work into the Assembly Government next year. The Welsh Language Board would not have been wound up next year—it would have been retained as a residuary body, but many of its functions would have been transferred, although most of the staff would have been doing the same jobs, sitting behind the same desks. Given that it requires primary legislation, in effect, it was then our intention to create a statutory office of a regulator for the Welsh language using our new and enhanced powers under the forthcoming Government of Wales Act. [314] So, the transfer of functions would have happened next year. The creation of the dyfarnydd and the final merger process to remove the Welsh Language Board as a statutory entity would have taken place under the new Government of Wales Act. We did a pretty big consultation as well as putting all the documents on the web, and the usual stuff. We held five public meetings at which this was discussed, and we received over 200 written responses. They are available on the web if people want to plough through them during the summer. It was clear that many people did not have an issue with the principle of merging the board into the Assembly Government, but they felt that the two- step process was a little confusing. We said that we accept that, and that if people feel strongly that they want the process to be done in one step rather than two steps, we are prepared to listen. We said at the beginning that our minds were not closed on the detail of the dyfarnydd’s job or timescales. We have accepted that, and we will now do it in a single set of legislative proposals, but we require additional legal powers to do that, which we will get under the new Government of Wales Act. Therefore, we will do that early in the new Assembly, as soon as we get the powers to do so. [315] We cannot predict how long the process will take, because the whole issue of Orders in Council and measures before the Assembly has never been done before, so it is difficult to give a precise timescale. However, I can tell the committee that it will be a very high early legislative priority, so you can expect the proposals to come through earlier rather than later in terms of the Assembly Government’s third term. There will not be a Queen’s Speech as such, but the Assembly Government will outline its legislative proposals, and you will see the proposals to bring this about earlier rather than later in the legislative phase. 3.50 p.m. [316] Eleanor Burnham: Felly, yr ydych yn sôn Eleanor Burnham: Therefore, you are talking am ar ôl mis Mai y flwyddyn nesaf? Sut fydd y about after May of next year? How will the cymal y mae’r Arglwydd Prys-Davies wedi’i clause that Lord Prys-Davies has proposed to gynnig i Fesur newydd y Llywodraeth yn effeithio the Government’s new Bill impact on this? I ar hyn? Fy nealltwriaeth i yw ei fod yn gofyn i’w understand that he is asking for statutory wneud yn statudol i oruchwylio’r iaith ac y bydd oversight of the Welsh language and that there gofynion ychwanegol ar Lywodraeth y Cynulliad i will be additional obligations on the Assembly oruchwylio’r iaith. Government to oversee it. [317] Alun Pugh: There has been a great deal of discussion on this matter. It is a UK Government matter rather than a Welsh Assembly Government matter, of course. However, there have been discussions at a UK Government level about the content of the Government of Wales Bill in relation to Welsh-language obligations. Many of those additional obligations, which have now been put through by means of a Government amendment, simply formalise and put on the face of the Bill what is actually the case now. Therefore, it will not change the reality, but some people were concerned that, because these things were not on the face of the Bill, that would somehow dilute the Government’s commitment, and we have been happy to give assurances that that is not the case. [318] Post May 2007, there will be a legal separation between the Senedd as a parliamentary body and the Welsh Ministers in terms of the Government’s structure. Providing that this Bill goes through in its current form, the Welsh Ministers will have a legal obligation in terms of promoting the Welsh language, as does the language board, of course. That is another rationale for close working while the board and the Welsh Ministers are separate legal entities. To answer your final question, that will take place after May because it is not until after May next year that the Assembly will pick up the additional powers and we will get the ability to make Orders in Council and measures to change the primary law of Wales. [319] Owen John Thomas: Un o’r ychydig Owen John Thomas: One of the few targets in dargedau yn ‘Iaith Pawb’ yw’r un sy’n anelu at ‘Iaith Pawb’ is the one that aims to increase the godi gan 5 pwynt canran y nifer o siaradwyr number of Welsh speakers by 5 percentage Cymraeg, hynny yw o 21 y cant i 26 y cant, a fydd points, from 21 per cent to 26 per cent. That yn golygu rhyw 140,000 o siaradwyr ychwanegol would mean creating about 140,000 additional erbyn 2011. Nid wyf yn meddwl bod hynny’n speakers by 2011. I do not think that that is ymarferol, a dweud y gwir, ond os ydych am fod practical, to be honest, but if you want to be yn uchelgeisiol, ac mae hynny’n uchelgeisiol ambitious, and that is extremely ambitious, I am iawn, yr wyf yn synnu nad ydych, fel Gweinidog, surprised that you, as a Minister, have not tried wedi ceisio dylanwadu ar Ddeddf Plant 2004 ac to influence the Children Act 2004 and section adran 29 yn arbennig. 29 in particular. [320] Mae rhan o’r adran honno yn galluogi A part of that section allows local authorities to awdurdodau lleol i fynd at gronfeydd data access local health trusts’ databases to collect ymddiriedolaethau iechyd lleol a chasglu the addresses of all children under three years of cyfeiriadau plant sydd o dan dair oed. Wedyn, age. Then, they could undertake an audit of their gallant gynnal arolwg o’u hanghenion addysgol. I educational needs. Indeed, an audit has been ddweud y gwir, paratowyd arolwg gan y bobl prepared by the people who have done this for sydd wedi gwneud hyn ar gyfer y Ddeddf Plant, the Children Act, especially the single education yn arbennig, y cynlluniau addysg unigol. Gwn fod plans. I know that this is partly a matter for the hwn yn rhannol yn fater i’r Gweinidog dros Minister for Education, Lifelong Learning and Addysg, Dysgu Gydol Oes a Sgiliau, ond yr ydych Skills, but you have said many times, wedi dweud sawl gwaith, Weinidog—ac yr wyf Minister—and I am glad that you have done yn falch eich bod wedi ei ddweud—bod addysg so—that Welsh-medium education is important cyfrwng Cymraeg yn bwysig ac yn llwyddiannus. and successful. I am sure that you will agree that Yr wyf yn siwr y cytunwch mai addysg, yn fwy it is education, more than anything, that could nag unrhyw beth, a allai greu’r cynnydd create the ambitious increase in the number of uchelgeisiol yn nifer y siaradwyr a nodir fel targed speakers that is noted as a target in ‘Iaith Pawb’. yn ‘Iaith Pawb’. [321] Deallaf fod y Gweinidog dros Addysg, I understand that the Minister for Education, Dysgu Gydol Oes a Sgiliau wedi dweud na fydd Lifelong Learning and Skills has said that no- unrhyw un yn edrych ar adran 29 nes yr hydref, one will look at section 29 until the autumn, but ond gallasai hynny gael ei wneud ddeufis yn gynt. that could be done two months earlier. I do not Nid wyf yn gwybod pam na all pobl edrych ar yr know why people cannot look at that section adran honno yn ystod yr egwyl. Bwriadaf wneud during recess. I intend doing a lot of work llawer o waith yn ystod yr egwyl ac yr wyf yn during the recess and I am sure that everyone siwr bod pawb sydd o amgylch y bwrdd hwn yn around this table intends doing quite a lot of bwriadu gwneud cryn dipyn o waith hefyd. Yr work as well. I have now been waiting since wyf wedi aros ers 2004, dros ddwy flynedd, i 2004, over two years, for someone to say, rywun ddweud, ‘Iawn, gadewch i ni edrych ar ‘Right, let us look at section 29 and delegate the adran 29 a dirprwyo’r swyddogaeth i’r Prif function to the First Minister’. In turn, he would Weinidog’. Yn ei dro, byddai ef wedyn yn ei then delegate it to the Ministers. ddirprwyo i’r Gweinidogion. [322] A yw’n bosibl i chi, fel Gweinidog, Is it possible for you, as a Minister, to influence ddylanwadu ar gyflymdra hynny? Hynny yw, the speed of that? That is, to write the ysgrifennu’r rheoliadau i ddirprwyo adran 29, fel regulations to delegate section 29, so that we ein bod yn gallu pwyso ar yr awdurdodau lleol i can put pressure on local authorities to conduct gynnal arolygon a rhwystro’r hyn sy’n digwydd surveys and prevent what happens year after flwyddyn ar ôl blwyddyn. Soniais ddoe yn y year. I mentioned in the Chamber yesterday that Siambr bod 30 o blant pedair oed yn Aberdâr sydd 30 four-year-olds in Aberdare do not know ddim yn gwybod lle maent yn mynd ym mis Medi. where they will go in September. The same Mae’r un peth wedi digwydd ym Mhengam yng thing has happened in Pengam in Caerphilly. It Nghaerffili. Nid yw’n deg. Yr ydym yn sôn am is not fair. We speak about justice and equality gyfiawnder a chyfle cyfartal, ond nid oes cyfle of opportunity, but there is no equality of cyfartal i rieni sy’n dewis addysg cyfrwng opportunity for parents who chose Welsh- Cymraeg i’w plant. Mae hwn yn digwydd medium education for their children. This flwyddyn ar ôl blwyddyn. Nid oes digon o happens year after year. There is insufficient ddarpariaeth i gwrdd â’r galw. Gall arolwg ddatrys provision to meet the need. A survey could sort hyn unwaith ac am byth. Os yw awdurdodau lleol this out once and for all. If local authorities yn gwybod am y galw, gallent baratoi eu know the level of demand, they can prepare cynlluniau datblygu addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg yn their Welsh-medium education development ôl hynny—hynny yw, yn unol â’r galw gan rieni. plans according to that—that is, according to the A fyddech yn fodlon edrych ar hyn a cheisio parental demand. Are you willing to look at this sicrhau ei fod yn cael ei symud ymlaen ynghynt? to try to ensure that it is progressed quickly? Mae aros dros ddwy flynedd yn afresymol. Waiting for over two years is unreasonable. [323] Alun Pugh: Cytunaf fod addysg cyfrwng Alun Pugh: I agree that Welsh-medium Cymraeg yn hanfodol i gynyddu nifer y siaradwyr education is essential to increase the number of Cymraeg yng Nghymru. Am y rheswm hwnnw yr Welsh speakers in Wales. It is for that reason ydym yn annog rhieni i fanteisio ar addysg that we encourage parents to take advantage of cyfrwng Cymraeg i’w plant. Welsh-medium education for their children. [324] The Government is very ambitious in that respect. We all know that we have far too many school places overall in Wales. We know that, sometimes, there are hotspots of extra demand where the population has shifted. However, we also know that more and more parents are taking advantage of Welsh-medium education, and we certainly want to encourage that. We are not less than ambitious with regard to our Welsh-language investment plans. You will know that we have invested an extra £28 million in the language. I would ask for support in protecting the Welsh language and cultural budget in general, as we move into the budget planning round in the autumn, from every member of this committee. [325] The general point that you made about surveying is important. It is difficult for any local authority to have an accurate idea about demand in a couple of years’ time in terms of how many places they need—and how many should be Welsh-medium places, and how many English-medium places—unless it does some proper survey work. That is the point of the single education plan. I will certainly relay your comments to the Minister with responsibility for children and the Minister for Education, Lifelong Learning and Skills. Next year, in 2007, we will be running a major review of ‘Iaith Pawb’. That is the time to do some serious work with regard to examining how far we have come with regard to our targets. Do we need more targets? Are those targets ambitious enough? Are they too ambitious? There will be a major review next year, including, as we saw in the amendment that we were happy to accept in Plenary earlier this week, of legislation in general. That includes, of course, the legislative powers that we currently have. You will recall that we have already extended legislation to cover water companies, and we are looking at that very carefully. [326] Owen John Thomas: Yr wyf yn falch â Owen John Thomas: I am pleased with a chryn dipyn o’r hyn a ddywedasoch, ond yr ydym considerable amount of what you said, but we yn sôn yn arbennig am adran 29. Mae’r adran are talking specifically about section 29. This bwysig hon wedi ei chadw tan nawr—mae dwy important section has been kept until now—two flynedd wedi pasio ers i Ddeddf Plant 2004 gael ei years have passed since the Children Act 2004 chyflwyno—ac mae’r Gweinidog dros Addysg, was introduced—and the Minister for Dysgu Gydol Oes a Sgiliau yn dweud, ‘Edrychwn Education, Lifelong Learning and Skills has ar hwn yn yr hydref’. Gall hynny olygu 1 said, ‘We will look at this in the autumn’. That Tachwedd neu 1 Medi, er bod hynny’n can mean 1 November or 1 September, although annhebygol iawn. Mae’n fy siomi ein bod wedi that is highly unlikely. It disappoints me that we aros am ddwy flynedd a nawr mae’n rhaid i ni have waited for two years, and we now have to aros am fisoedd eto. Bydd toriad hanner tymor ym wait a further few months. There will be a half mis Hydref, a bydd gwyliau dros y Nadolig. Ni term recess in October, and there is the chredaf ein bod o ddifrif, fel Cynulliad—ac, yn Christmas recess. I do not believe that we are sicr, mae hwn yn wir am y Llywodraeth—am y serious as an Assembly—and this is certainly cyfle hwn i gael gwared ar rywbeth sy’n peri true of the Government—about this opportunity pryder i gannoedd o rieni bob blwyddyn. to get rid of something that causes concern to hundreds of parents every year. 4.00 p.m. [327] Rosemary Butler: You have made your point and I think that the Minister was advising you to add to that. I think that it is reiterating your disappointment. Were there any other questions that you wanted to ask him? I see that there are not. Lisa? [328] Lisa Francis: The Minister knows my feelings about education being the way forward for the Welsh language. In many ways, it is a shame that the Minister for Education, Lifelong Learning and Skills does not have more to do with the work of this committee, but perhaps it is something that will be resolved in May 2007. [329] Rosemary Butler: One Minister is enough trouble; we do not want two. [330] Lisa Francis: It is interesting. We need to look at what local authorities are putting forward in their language plans and their education plans for schools. There has to be some influencing the guidance on that. That has to be key for the way forward, otherwise there will be no way forward. [331] In respect of the dyfarnydd, I note in your report, Minister, that you say that the appointment to the post will be done in a fair and open competition. Can you expand on that slightly? You say that it will all be a legislative priority, but that is very misty, because we really do not know what is around the corner post-May 2007. We have an idea but you cannot guarantee that it will be the first Order in Council. Insofar as the dyfarnydd or regulator is concerned, will he be independent and responsible for agreeing and monitoring the implementation of language schemes? By ‘independent’, I mean independent of the Government. Will he be accountable to the National Assembly for Wales rather than the Welsh Assembly Government? That is my first question. [332] Secondly, the Welsh Language Board has said that the process to establish an independent regulator would be worthless if appropriate financial and staffing resources are not earmarked to enable him to undertake functions effectively and proactively. Have you thought about that already? That is not to say that I personally think that the dyfarnydd is the correct way ahead; I would just like to have answers to those questions, and hear about your vision for this dyfarnydd. [333] Also, the Welsh Language Board is keen, now that this delay has happened, for the work that had been progressing between the Welsh Assembly Government and the Welsh Language Board on information technology and so forth—arrangements for mainstreaming and that sort of thing—to stop, so that it can concentrate on what it is supposed to be doing. Can you give a guarantee that that work will stop, because it seems to be a waste of public money and a waste of precious time and energy? Those are my questions on the dyfarnydd, Chair. [334] Rosemary Butler: Let us get him or her out of the way. Minister? [335] Alun Pugh: I am glad that you said ‘or her’, Chair. I have no views as to what gender the dyfarnydd ought to be. In terms of the appointment, I am envisaging a Nolan-style process with some future committee representatives on that. You asked me whether it would be the first Order to go through the Assembly. I cannot give you that guarantee, but it will certainly be one of the first. Orders go through Parliament, but it is Assembly measures that will come here. In terms of that procedure, they will not proceed sequentially, like making sausages. In other words, we will not deal with all of the procedures for the first one and then move on to all of the procedures of the second one. It will be done in the same way as the House of Commons, at any time, has Bills at Committee Stage, Report Stage, things awaiting First Reading, things awaiting Second Reading, debates, and so on. What you will see in the new Assembly is a multi-stage legislative procedure with several sets of Assembly measures; a different stage of cooking all running at the same time. Somewhere in that cooking will be that early set of proposals to create this. [336] In terms of the question on whether the dyfarnydd be independent of Government, the answer is ‘absolutely’. That is an important part of our proposals. At present, of course, the regulator/ dyfarnydd is me. Therefore, it is not independent of Government at present, because that is my legal function. That function, ultimately, of making that judgment call, in the case of a dispute between a public body and, currently, the Welsh Language Board, is probably best made by an expert judicial figure, rather than a politician like me. Therefore, that is the point of making that regulator independent of Government. [337] That will not be their only role. In the consultation paper, we were talking about the dyfarnydd having a role in judging the Assembly Government’s own performance—it is not a matter for me—and also, possibly, considering the parliamentary body’s performance. Therefore, that is a matter for the parliamentary body to work out. At present, the ‘Iaith Pawb’ document, and the Assembly Government’s annual report of performance is debated on the floor of the Assembly once a year. However, the report is compiled by the Government, and it is not externally audited as such. When we have the dyfarnydd around, that degree of independent scrutiny will help us. We try to give a fair report, showing what we are doing well, and also drawing attention to the areas where perhaps we are not doing so well, so it is not just a gloss on our own performance. However, some sort of independent audit would be good. Therefore, they will be absolutely independent. [338] You mentioned resources. Clearly, the office of the dyfarnydd will have to have the resources, time and money to be able to do the job. For the second time this afternoon, we are about to go into the heavy part of the budget planning round. We all recall what happened last year—I had to find £200,000 out of my budget to meet other budgetary priorities. Please let us not go down that road again this year; that would cause serious difficulties for culture and the Welsh language. [339] Finally, you mentioned delay. There has not been a delay, as such—there is a two-stage process, but the first stage has now been brought into the second stage. Therefore, the Welsh Language Board was going to be legally merged sometime after May 2007; it will still happen at the same time, but some of the preparatory work—the preparatory change of regulatory functions—will take place later than was originally anticipated. [340] That has an impact on work streams. However, one work stream that I am anxious not to stop is a related work stream, called the ‘Making the Connections’ agenda. That is about getting public bodies, generally, local authorities, ASPBs, and the Government itself, to work more closely to sweat out things such as administrative savings by working smarter, along the lines that Jeremy Beecham suggested earlier this week. If we can do things more efficiently, and squeeze administrative savings, I want to continue that process. [341] Rosemary Butler: Can we move on to something else now, rather than the dyfarnydd. We have spent 25 minutes on that, so can we ask some other questions? [342] Lisa Francis: I would like to ask a supplementary question on that. [343] Rosemary Butler: Okay, but 25 minutes on one topic is a lot, when we have a range of other things to do. [344] Lisa Francis: With due respect, it is pointless my asking a question and just getting one answer. If the Minister wants to take a long time answering a question— [345] Rosemary Butler: Okay, we will have one more question on the dyfarnydd, and then we will move on to other topics. Please try to give shorter replies, Minister. [346] Lisa Francis: The problem is the uncertainty facing the Welsh Language Board during this period—that is the difficulty. It is concerned about not being able to concentrate on the work programmes that it deals with best—its energies, if you like, are being diverted away from that due to this other work that you say that you are hell-bent on continuing with this ‘Making the Connections’ agenda. Given that there is this uncertainty—you have mentioned May 2007, but it could be well beyond that, realistically—I would like some assurance that the work that has been undertaken could be halted. [347] Alun Pugh: We must be clear between work preparatory to merger, which was clearly impacted by our decision, and the ‘Making the Connections’ agenda. The ‘Making the Connections’ agenda is not part of this. This is about a relentless drive for value for money by squeezing out administrative costs. It applies to every ASPB, every local authority and every part of the public estate, including the Assembly Government itself. If, by being smarter about leases, purchasing and all those back office processing costs, we can save money, I am determined to get on and do that. We have an obligation across Government to deliver on that. 4.10 p.m. [348] Rosemary Butler: Are there any other questions on that? I see that there are none. We will, therefore, move on to other questions. [349] Lisa Francis: I notice that you met with Eisteddfod representatives last week and I met with them this week. On marketing, my feeling is that the Wales Tourist Board, as it was, and Visit Wales, as it is now, has never been very involved, or has never done very much to market the Eisteddfod. Perhaps it has shied away from it and has been rather afraid of the Welsh language issue—I do not know. However, the time is now ripe for you and the Minister for Enterprise, Innovation and Networks to have discussions on how the Eisteddfod could be marketed—not just for this year in Swansea, but for years to come. Have you had any discussions with him on this or do you plan to discuss this in future? I know that the Minister for Enterprise, Innovation and Networks will be visiting the site in the near future. [350] I also wanted to ask a question on another issue that concerns me, namely revenue. In the past, the Wales Tourist Board, the WDA and ELWa, as they were, had pavilions or tents on the site. That is no longer the case, which is clearly a loss of revenue. Have you considered that? Eisteddfod funding is always a key issue, and the problem is that the funding that it receives means that there is no way of having any certainty in terms of planning on the annual grant process. I appreciate that you gave it some extra money last year, but it is not good for its profile when it receives bits and pieces like that, because other sponsors assume that it is not a deserving cause. Have you also considered that? [351] Alun Pugh: I am certainly looking forward to visiting the pink pavilion in Swansea. [352] Rosemary Butler: Do not wear your striped shirt, whatever you do. [353] Alun Pugh: There have been several positive developments with the Eisteddfod in recent years. There have been many improvements to the governance and professionalism of the management of the Eisteddfod. That was overdue and I certainly welcome it. [354] The work that we have done, through the Welsh Local Government Association, to enable local government to contribute an equal amount every year, rather than to contribute in huge peaks and troughs, has made it much easier for every part of Wales to consider hosting the Eisteddfod. That has given the Eisteddfod committee a bit more certainty in terms of cashflows. That is all very good. I was very pleased to hear that last year’s Eisteddfod made a profit of £200,000. That is great. The Swansea committee should be congratulated; it has done a fantastic job on fundraising and has hit its targets. I am sure that Val will want to say something about that. So, it is remorselessly positive news on the financial and cultural front and I am certainly looking forward to being there over the first weekend. [355] As you said, the Minister for Enterprise, Innovation and Networks has visited the Eisteddfod several times and, as it is taking place on his doorstep, I know that he will be closely involved. There will be many opportunities for Andrew Davies to talk specifically about the input of the tourism and marketing department to the Eisteddfod. [356] Your final point was that the WTB, the WDA and ELWa will no longer have tents on the maes. Their tents created what was known as quango valley, and that was not perhaps the most exciting part of the Eisteddfod maes. However, given that quango valley has disappeared, and because they all paid rent—and it was, I guess, a hidden subsidy for the Eisteddfod—it will have a financial impact, if not necessarily a huge cultural impact. We have had discussions about that. The Eisteddfod organisers are well aware of that matter. It has been raised with me in terms of the Urdd Eisteddfod too. [357] Eleanor Burnham: I am quite concerned about next year’s Eisteddfod. Can you give us an assurance that you are going to be looking closely at it? Flintshire, for instance, only has a year, really, in which to raise the money, and people have raised that concern with me. How can you reassure us that you will look closely at this to give it as much assistance as possible? It is much more difficult to raise in a year what you can raise in two years. [358] Alun Pugh: I accept that and we will all be taking that into account when voting in the budget process this year. [359] Rosemary Butler: I think that that debate needs to come before committee, because not everybody is in favour of giving more money to the Eisteddfod, and that is an issue. [360] Eleanor Burnham: Oh no, I am not talking about giving it more money; I am talking about helping it to proceed in a situation in which, because of various complications, it only has a year instead of two to build up its funds. [361] Rosemary Butler: Lisa, do you have any more questions? I ask you to make them fairly sharpish because Eleanor and Owen John are keen to go. I know that it is not 4.30 p.m., but if you could— [362] Lisa Francis: Have you had any discussions with the Minister for Enterprise, Innovation and Networks about the possibility of Visit Wales marketing the Eisteddfod? [363] Alun Pugh: No, but I know that the Minster is going to the Eisteddfod and he will have those separate discussions with Eisteddfod members. I am very happy to do joint meetings. [364] Val Lloyd: I support what the Minister said in terms of how well communities in Swansea have worked. I was actively engaged with the Morriston community, in my home area, which is quite a large area, and it was pessimistic, to put it mildly, and struggled in the beginning. However, it all came together and it joined with many other communities. Of course, when you are doing that sort of fund-raising, you cannot tap your friends and relatives in other areas, because they are all collecting too. The people of the community far exceeded their target, so it was a magnificent effort. [365] Rosemary Butler: There are a couple of points that I would like to raise. The creative industries awards ceremony is mentioned on the first page of your report. You went along to the school of art and design. The report gives the impression that this Government award is only for the Cardiff School of Art and Design. Am I reading that correctly, or is it open to all schools of design across Wales? [366] Alun Pugh: It is an internal award for that particular university department and, for several years, it has had a bit of an internal competition of which I have been the judge and have had to choose two pieces of student work from the cream of the crop. [367] Rosemary Butler: Thank you, I just wanted to check that. Point 3 on page 3 mentions the ‘Climbing Higher’ action plan. You are able to report that things are really increasing in adult physical activities. Could you give us a breakdown of the amount of additional activity that there has been in different areas? You probably cannot do it now, but if you could give us a written— [368] Alun Pugh: I cannot do it now, but it will be in the report. [369] Rosemary Butler: That would be helpful. On the coaching plan for Wales meeting, on page 4, have we had anything on that, and what is it? [370] Alun Pugh: Yes, we have. There has been a formal launch of the coaching plan for Wales with the budgetary allocation, but I can let you have further details. [371] Rosemary Butler: I would be grateful if you could, because that has passed me by. [372] The other issue is the dollar offer. I think that it is all in the wrong tense. It should say that it happened on 4 July. How did it go? Did you get many dollars? [373] Alun Pugh: We got a couple of hundred dollars through the door. It was a bit of a marketing initiative rather than a serious attempt to gather thousands of dollars, but it got a lot of publicity. We are currently trying to evaluate that from the American press, because, obviously, it was trying to raise the profile of Welsh castles in the American press. We are trying to get a series of press cuttings from the other side of the Atlantic. Most people were very happy about it, except for one person who wrote a letter saying, ‘Why on earth do we have American flags outside a Welsh castle on 4 July?’. [374] Rosemary Butler: It is quite interesting that the European department of the Assembly Government is going to do an exhibition at the Ellis Island Immigration Museum on Welsh immigration. It might be that you can advertise there and say, ‘Come to find your ancestors.’ [375] Alun Pugh: There could be a Welsh flag outside an American castle. [376] Rosemary Butler: Is there anything else on the Minister’s report? I see that there is not. We did not get any apologies from Laura Anne Jones in the end. She was going to raise an issue, but as she is not here, it cannot be raised. Thank you very much indeed. It has been a very interesting meeting today. Have a busy recess. I thank the broadcasters, translators, Record of Proceedings staff and security staff. Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 4.21 p.m. The meeting ended at 4.21 p.m.