Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

TUESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 1978

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

3152 Appropriation Bill (No. 2) [5 DECEMBER 1978] Papers

SHERWOOD BY-ELECTION RETURN OF WRIT Mr. SPEAKER: Order! I have to inform the House that the writ issued by me on 3 November 1978 for the election of a member to serve in the Legislative Assembly for the electoral district of Sherwood has been returned to me with a certificate endorsed thereon by the returning officer of the election, on 25 November 1978, of John Angus Mackenzie Innes, Esquire, t(} serve as such member.

MEMBER SWORN ,Mr. Innes was introduced, took the oath of allegiance, and suh-'>cribed the roR

PAPERS The following papers were laid on the table, and ordered to be printed:­ Reports- Queensland Radium Institute, foc 1977- 78. Council of the Queensland Institute of Medical Research, for 1977-78. Commissioner of Police, for 1977-78. Net Surplus Profits of the State Govern­ ment Insurance Office (Queensland), for 1977-78. Queensland Cultural Centre Trust, for 1977-78. Department of the Valuer-General, for 1977-78. Department of Aboriginal and Islanders Advancement, for 1977-78. The folJowing papers were laid on the table:- Orders in Council under­ Electricity Act 1976. Harbours Act 1955-1976. River Improvement Trust Act 1940- 1977. Water Act 1926--1976 and the Local Bodies' Loans Guarantee Act 1923- 1975. Forestry Act 1959-1976 and the National TUESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 1978 Parks and Wildlife Act 1975-1976. Land Act 1965-1975. "The Supreme Court Act of 1921 ". Mr. SPEAKER (Hon. J. E. H. Houghton, Regulations under the Fauna Conservation Redcliffe) read prayers and took the chair Act 1974-1976. at 11 a.m. By-law under the Water Act 1926--1976. Ordinances under the City of Brffibane Act 1924-1977. APPROPRIATION BILL (No. 2) Accounts of the State Government Insur­ AssENT ance Office (Queensland) for 1977- 1978. Mr. SPEAKER: I have to report that on 1 December 1978 I presented to His Reports- Excellency the Governor Appropriation Bill Upon the exemption of a part of the 1978-79 (No. 2) for the Royal Assent and accounts of the Railways Department that His Excellency was pleased, in my from audit by the Auditor-GeneraL presence, to subscribe his Assent thereto in State Government Insurance Office the name and on behalf of Her Majesty. (Queensland), for 1977-1978. Industry and Commerce, &c., Bill [5 DECEMBER 19781 Questions Upon Notice 3153

MINISTERIAL STATEMENT consolidate and amend the law relating to apprentices, to make provision for the "THE HEALTH SERVICES OF QUEENSLAND", industrial and commercial training of other PUBLICATION persons and for incidental and other pur­ Hon. L. R. EDWARDS (Ipswich-Deputy poses." Premier and Minister for Health) (11.10 a.m.): Motion agreed to. I lay on the table a copy of the revised publication "The Health Services of Queens­ land", which has been produced in full LOCAL GOVERNMENT ACT colour by the Division of Health Education and Information. AMENDMENT BILL It is the desire of the Government to INITIATION provide comprehensive information on all activitiel! of initiative and development in Hon. R. J. HINZE (South Coast-Minister health services, and this new booklet is for Local Government and Main Roads): I a further contribution to this end. Queens­ move- landers can be justly proud of their Health "That the House will, at its present and Medical Services, which have been sitting, resolve itself into a Committee of expanded and modernised to serve the whole the Whole to consider introducing a Bill community into the 21st Century. to amend the Local Government Act 1936- 1978 in certain particulars." I commend this publication to all honour­ able members, and I have arranged for them Motion agreed to. to be provided with copies of the new booklet Whereupon the honourable gentleman laid LOCAL GOVERNMENT (ABORIGINAL the booklet on the table. LANDS) ACT AMENDMENT BILL INrnATION SELECT COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION Hon. R. J. HINZE (South Coast-Minister for Local Government and Main Roadg): I Mr. AHERN (Landsborough) (11.14 a.m.): move- I lay on the table of the House the first interim report of the Select Committee on "That the House will, at its present Education in Queensland relating to the sitting, resolve itself into a Committee of composition and functions of the Board of the Whole to consider introducing a Bill Secondary School Studies and Secondary to amend the Local Government School Assessment, and move that the report (Aboriginal Lands) Act 1978 in certain be printed. particulars and for other purposes." Motion agreed to. Whereupon the report was laid on the table, and ordered to be printed. WATER RESOURCES GREENVALE AGREEMENT BILL ADMINISTRATION BILL

INITIATION THIRD READING Hon. W. E. KNOX (Nundah-Treasurer): Bill, on motion of Mr. N. T. E. Hewitt, I move- read a third time. "That the House will, at its present sitting, resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider introducing a Bill to QUESTIONS UPON NOTICE authorize the making of agreements between the State of Queensland and 1. GOVERNMENT COMMITTEE ON others amendin£ the agreements made UNEMPLOYMENT pursuant to the Greenvale Agreement Act Mr. Casey, pursuant to notice, asked the 1977 and for other purposes." Premier- Motion agreed to. (!) With reference to the committee on unemployment set up by the Government, which has been touring rural areas ·of INDUSTRY AND COMMERCE Queensland, what its composition? TRAINING BILL (2) Which political party do the members represent in the Parliament? INITIATION (3) Whlch towns and cities have been Hon. F. A. CAMPBELL (Aspley-Mini­ visiied by the committee? ster for Labour Relations): I move- (4) Is the cost of (a) scheduled air "That the House will, at its present transport and (b) chartered aircraft being sitting, resolve itself into a Committee of charged to ·the Parliament or to his depart­ the Whole to consider introducing a Bill to ment? 3154 Questions Upon Notice [5 DECEMBER 1978] Questions Upon Notice

(5) To whom will this committee report, to the following members to attend dis­ and when is it expected that the report will cussions when the committee visited their be furnished? electorates:- The honourable member for Mackay; (6) Why has this committee investigating unemployment not been an all-party com­ The honourable member for Rock­ mittee of this Parliament? hampton; The honourable member for Rock­ (7) Because of the nature of the com­ hampton North; and position of the committee, does he believe The honourable member for Cairns. that this is an exercise to play politics with the misfortune of the unemployed in None of these members responded to the this State? chairman's invitation. Perhaps the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition, as the honourable mem­ Answers:- ber for Mackay, might inform this House (1) The committee on unemployment to why he did not accept the committee's which the Honourable the Leader of the invitation. Opposition refers in his question comprises the following members:- (7) It ill becomes the Honourable the The honourable member for Towns­ Leader of the Opposition to talk of the ville West-Chairman; politics of unemployment. There is no need to look further than the link between the The honourable member for Pine Australian Labor Party and the trade Rivers-Secretary; union movement and its support for the The honourable member for Surfers trade union movement-a movement with Paradise; a record of strikes to disrupt industry-to The honourable member for Mt. find one of the major causes of Gravatt; unemployment. The honourable member for Carnarvon;

The honourable member for Peak 2. REPORTS ON UsE AND MAINTENANCE Downs; CosTS OF OFFICIAL AEROPLANE The honourable member for Mt. Isa; Mr. Casey, pursuant to notice, asked the The honourable member for Redlands; Treasurer- and The honourable member for Too­ (!) With reference to the answer given woomba North. by the Premier to my question on 29 November concerning the increase in ser­ (2) The Honourable the Leader of the vicing costs of the official aircraft from Opposition has been long enough in this $19,306 in 1975-76 to $40,963 in 1976-77 House to know to which parties the above and $51,783 in 1977-78, which, while giving members belong. no information, stated that all expenditure incurred in the operation of the Govern­ (3) The committee made an extensive ment aircraft is subject to Government tour of this State-a tour that included audit, in view of numerous statements by provincial cities and country areas. the Premier in the past three months about the need for all members to be account­ (4) The members of the committee will able to the people and the fact that the not be bearing the costs of the country Treasurer is the accountable Minister for visits themselves. the payment into and out of the public account of Crown moneys, are the very (5) The report to be compiled by the sketchy financial details provided in the committee will be submitted to the Auditor-General's report on the operation Government. and maintenance of the official aircraft accompanied by an even briefer section (6) The nature of membership of the involving statistics "as supplied by the committee was decided upon by the department", which includes number of Government as the most effective means of flights, passengers carried and flying time? obtaining factual information on the problems of unemployment. (2) Is it correct to assume that the audit of the use of this aircraft is carried Unemployment should not be a political out in conjunction with unexplained opera­ football, as the Honourable the Leader of tional information that occupies three the Opposition is obviously seeking to make lines in the report and provides only it. Here I should mention that I have statistics supplied by the department, which been informed by the chairman of the is no doubt for the convenience of the committee that invitations were extended Premier? Questions Upon Notice [5 DECEMBER 1978] Questions Upon Notice 3155

(3) Would it not be most difficult to 3. PoLICE STRENCITH, CAPELLA conduct a thorough audit into the economic accountability on the operations of an Mr. Lester, pursuant to notice, asked. the aircraft over a 12-month period without Minister for Mines, Energy and Police----- having any details of individual flights What is planned to upgrade the Capella or anything further in terms of operations police strength from one officer to a than three bare statistics that the Auditor­ sergeant and a constable? General appears to imply are accepted without check? Answer:- (4) Is he aware that at the Federal Government level full records in relation Approval has been given for police to use of aircraft in the R.A.A.F. special strength at Capella to be increased to squadron are kept both at Fairbairn two, comprising a sergeant 2/C and a R.A.A.F. base and within the R.A.A.F. constable. Applications for the position section of the Defence Department and that of sergeant 2/C closed on 4 December this complete information, including the 1978, and both positions will be filled as flights by the Prime Minister and the soon as possible. Governor-General, is presented to the Senate twice yearly?

(5) Will he as the accountable officer 4. SNAKEBITE ANTIVENENE DEPOT, CENTRAL for the expenditure and receipt of all HIGHLANDS Crown moneys in Queensland use his influence to have the same frank, honest Mr. Lester, pursuant to notice, asked the system of reporting in relation to the Deputy Premier and Minister for Health- official aircraft introduced into this Parliament? (!) In view of the increased prevalence of snakebite in country areas, where (6) In view of the doubts that exist, are the nearest antivenene depots to the will he finally take steps to have the full population of 35,000 persons in the Centra! itemised details of the servicing of the Highlands? official aircraft for the years 1975-76, 1976-77 and 1977-78 obtained from Ansett, (2) What types of antivenene are avail­ which is the servicing company, and table able? them in this Parliament on 5 December? (3) Will he take urgent action to estab­ lish an antivenene base in the Central Answers:- Highlands, as a great percentage of the ( I to 3) The Auditor-General is required population consists of young children who to audit the departmental accounts in such were referred to as likely victims in his manner as he thinks fit, having regard to recently produced brochure on snakebite? recognised professional standards and practices, and to report to Parliament on matters and things that in his opinion are Answer:- of such significance as to require inclusion (! to 3) I am advised that stocks of in that report. antivenene are held at Emerald, Clermont, Blackwater, Moranbah and Springsure I have read that part of the Auditor­ Hospitals. General's annual report for 1977-78 relating to his audit of the accounts of the The following antivenenes are available Premier's Department, particularly that from Commonwealth Serum Laboratories:- part relating to the operations of the Government aircraft, and, in my opinion, Biack Snake; it is adequate, balanced, and fair reporting Brown Snake; in accordance with the statutory res­ Polyvalent; ponsibilities placed upon him. Sea Snake; (4) The recording and reporting of Death Adder; operations of R.A.A.F. aircraft are res­ Taipan; ponsibilities of the Commonwealth Govern­ Tiger Snake; and ment and are not part of my ministerial Redback Spider. responsibilities. (5 & 6) The Treasurer does not have "accountable officer" responsibility. He controls the public bank accounts and he 5. TUCK-SHOP, MORAYFIELD STATE PRIMARY is required to issue public moneys from SCHOOL those accounts to the "accountable Mr. Frawley, pursuant to notice, asked officers" of the several departments to the Minister for Works and Housing- enable them to make payments for the departmental services under their control (!) Will he give an assurance that a for which Parliament has made tuck-shop for Morayfield State Primary appropriations. School will be provided as soon as possible? 31.56 Questions Upon Notice (5 DECEMBER 1978] Questions Upon Notice

(2) Is he aware that there are 318 7. OPENING OF BRIBIE OVERPASS, pupils attending the school, the health BRUCE HIGHWAY room is being used as a tuck-shop, thus Mr. Frawley, pursuant to notice, asked presenting great difficulties, and that the the Minister for Local Government and enrolment is expected to increase next Main Roads- year, adding to the already congested area of the tuck-shop? As he has given an assurance in the past that the new Bribie overpass on the Bruce (3) Is he aware that I first made repre­ Highway east of Caboolture will be open sentations to him on 27 February regarding for Christmas traffic, will he, in view of the tuck-shop and since that date have some concern in the area, again give an made several more pleas? assurance that this important overpass will be open for traffic by Christmas? (4) Will he give the Morayfield State Primary School a tuck-shop and assist the mothers to provide a worthwhile service Answer:- to the children? Needless to say, it is with some pleasure that I advise the House that the structure Answer:- known as the Bribie Island Overpass on the Bruce Highway became oper>ative this (1 to 4) The honourable member for morning. No doubt the honourwble mem­ Caboolture has made personal representa­ ber is happy that the concern expressed tions to me on several occasions during by some of his constituents has been the last year for the provision of a tuck­ shown to be unwarranted. Perhaps I shop at the Morayfield State School, but should add that these same constituents it has not been possible to date to approve should receive a further bonus just before of this proposal. However, I give the Christmas 1979, by which time it is honourable member an assurance that currently anticipated that the four lanes this work will be approved early in the will be extended from Burpengary to the 1979 school year as soon as the necessarv Bribie Island turn-off. additional class-room accommodatioi1 required at many schools has been provided to cater for the increased enrolments. 8. OVERLOADING OF RAIL WAGONS BY RoAD TRANSPORT CoMPANIES

6. EMPLOYMENT OF CHILDREN UNDER 15 Mr. Davis, pursuant to notice, asked the YEARS OF AGE Minister for Transport- Mr. Frawley, pursuant to notice, asked the (!) Did a road transport company ·Minister for Labour Relations- recently have to reimburse the Railway Department up to $80,000 because that (!) Is he aware that officers of the firm was overloading on wagons and Commonwealth Employment Service are thereby cheating his department? advising parents that children under 15 (2) What is the name of this company? years of age who have just completed their exams and have finished school (3) Have any other firms had to reim­ with the principal's consent are not to burse the Railway Department for similar be listed for employment? offences? (2) Will he advise if anyone under 15 (4) Is this practice prevalent, and does years of age is banned from taking employ­ the Railway Department have regular ment in Queensland in any capacity and, checks to ensure that firms are paying his if so, what avenues of work are open to department the correct rail freight? children under 15 years of age, especially those of a \Vidowed parent? Answers:- (1 & 2) The incident to which the hon­ Answer:- ourable member is seemingly referring invot!ves the underdeclamtion of weights by (1 & 2) Inquiries made by my department a company operating under a contract indicate that the C.E.S. requires a child entered into with the N.S.W. Public Tmns­ to produce either a Junior certificate or a port Commission for the conveyance of certificate of exemption from the Director­ consignments to interstate dest1nations. It General of Education before seeking to accordingly would not be proper for me place that child in employment. In so far to elaborate other than to say that the as the employment of a child in a factorv Queensland Rai!lway Department was or shop is concerned, discretionary powe-r affected to a very limited extent and exists in the Factories and Shops Act to moneys owing were paid in full. permit such employment. (3) Yes. Questions Upon Notice [5 DECEMBER 1978] Questions Upon Notice. 3157

(4) The practice is not prevalent, as (4) Will he make public the recom­ regular checks are made of weights and mendations of this committee? of agents' manilfests, which are, at ail times, available for in!lpection by officers (5) Does the committee intend seeking of the Railway Department. submissions from consumer and retail organisations and the general public? (6) How will the proposed minimum­ 9. CLOSURE OF RAILWAY STATIONS price scheme for bread affect the Queens­ land consumers? Mr. Davis, pursuant to notice, asked the Minister for Transport- (7) Will any such scheme cost the con­ sumers in the metropolitan area an extra (1) How many railway stations are .to Se to 10c per loaf? be dosed in Queensland in the next 12 months? Answers:- (2) If any are to be closed, what are the names of these stations? (1) No. A committee of three persons has, however, been appointed to inquire (3) What are the reasons for the closure into a range of aspects relating to the bread of each of the stations? industry. This committee will merely be making recommendations to the Govern­ (4) wm any staff have their serv·ices ment. It has no powers to fix prices. terminated? (2) The membership of the committee which is inquiring into the bread industry Answers:- is Ian M. Suter (chairman), John F. (1) As at present foreseen, 21 stations Curran and Arthur C. Pennell. will cease to be manned during the next (3) Mr. Curran is a director of a major 12 months and the staff involved have Brisbane bread-manufacturing firm and Mr. been notified accordingly. Pennell is an independent country bread (2) Tamaree, :Hiarvey's Siding, Curra, manufacturer. The chairman of the com­ Kadina, Paterson, Gundiah, Nethenby, mittee, Mr. Suter, has no connection with Owanyilla, Yangarie, Oak:hurst, Tingoora, the bread-manufacturing industry. Benarkin, Jambin, Ambrose, Y andaran, (4) Any decision must await the recom­ Ra~an, Calcium, Thoopara, Reid River, Blair Athol, The Caves. mendations of the committee. (3) The first 10 stations enumerated were (5) This is a matter for the committee manned solely to attend to train staff to determine, but I am informed that the working and the need for the retention of committee proposes to seek submissions the employees concerned wilJ cease with from any interested parties or groups. the introduction of centralised traffic con­ ( 6) There is no suggestion of price trol. In respect of the remaining 11 control in any action the Government has ;;tation.'i, the business transacted thereat taken. At this stage the whole bread­ had declined to a level that does not justify marketing system is a matter for inquiry. the continued employment of an officer. (7) See answers to (1) and (6). (4) Six station mistresses, each of whom .is the wife of a ganger or fett1er in the .looal maintenance gang and who were employed in a temporary capacity, will 11. TYRE STANDARDS FOR NEW VEHICLES have thcir services discontinued in January AND REPLACEMENT MARKET 1979. Mr. Austin, pursuant to notice, asked the Minister for Transport- 10. COMMITTEE TO DETERMINE BREAD PRICE (!) Is he aware that new-car manu­ facturers demand higher-quality tyres Mr. Davis, pursuant to notice, asked the Premier- for original equipment than the tyre manufacturers supply to ,the replacement (1) Has a subcommittee of three men market? been formed under the auspices of the (2) What steps will he take to ensure Primary Industries Department to fix the that the general publ.ic are made aware minimum retail price of bread? of the different standards? (2) Who are the personnel on this committee? Answer:- (3) Do any of these personnel have (1 & 2) I am not aware that this is the interests in the bread-manufacturing case, but if the honourable member could industry? give me specific details such as brands, ply 3158 Que~{ipns. ~Tpon Notice [5 DECEMBER 1978] Questions Upon Notice

rating and other specifications as well as 14. EMPLOYMENT SITUATION IN LABOR­ the price of comp;irable tyres marketed by CONTROLLED STATES AND IN the same manufacturer, indicating any QUEENSLAND , safety aspects that might be involved, I ' will have this matter examined. Mr. McKechnie, pursuant to notice, asked the Minister for La~bour Relations- Is he aware that employment has actually increased in Queensland by 8.4 per cent 12. INVESTIGATION OF TYRE QUALITY over the past three years and, as the Labor Mr. Austin, pursuant to notice, asked the States had an average increase of only a Minister for Labour Relations- little over 2 per cent, what effect has this poor record of employment in the Labor Has the Consumer Affairs Bureau made States had on the overall employment any investigation into the quality of motor situation in Queensland? vehicle tyres available for sale in Queens­ land and, if so, what was the main Answer:- complaint? Labour Force Survey Estimates from the Bureau of Statistics using 1976 bench­ Answer:- marks show that the number of employed in Queensland from August 1975 to August Complaints made to the Consumer 1978 increased by 4.74 per cent, for the Affairs Bureau regarding the quality of same period in New South Wales the motor vehicle tyres have been minimal number increased by 1.19 per cent, for . and, therefore, insufficient to warrant the South Australia 0.75 per cent and for ·bureau's carrying out a specific investiga­ Tasmania 0.55 per cent. tion. Population Estimates from the bureau using 1976 bench-marks show that the num­ ber of persons in Queensland from March 1975 to March 1978 increased by 4.07 per l3. ACTION AGAINST SELLERS OF cent and for the same period New South DEFECTIVE TYRES Wales had an increase of 2.39 per cent, South Australia 2.89 per cent and Tas­ Mr. Austin, pursuant to notice, asked the mania 2.38 per cent. It is correct to con­ Minister for Justice and Attorney-General- olude from these official statistics that, What action will be taken against tyre whereas the States of New Sou!Jh Wales, manufacturers who knowingly sell defec­ South Australia and Tasmania are showing tive .tyres ·to the public? regressive employment tendencies under the iron hand of socialist Governments, Queensland, under a progressive free-enter­ Answer:- prise Government, is going on to a bigger, better and brighter future. Civil action by any person sustaining any injury or loss as a result of the sale of defective items may be taken against 15. QUEENSLAND PERMANENT BUILDING the person v.mo supplied those items. This SociETY, FINAL REPORT AND AcrroN ,is a matter on which persons should be AGAINST DIRECTORS guided by their own legal advisers in the Mr. K. .J. Hooper, pursuant to notice, light of the particuiar circumstances. asked the Minister for Justice and Attorney­ General- In the criminal sphere I am advised that there presently is no legislation which is (1) Has his attention been drawn to .relevant to the situation suggested. reports that the final report on the now defunct Queensland Permanent Building However, section 37 of the Consumer Society is about to be presented to the Affairs Act does prov.ide for the making Registrar of Building Societies? 0\f regulations designed to prevent or reduce the risk of death or personal injury and, (2) Will he take steps to ensure that in that regard, requirements may be laid the long-suffering investors of this society are quickly advised of the contents of down as to the composition of contents, this report? design or construction of the goods in question or components thereof and, once (3) Is any action contemplated by the the requirements are made, by virtue of Police Fraud Squad against the former section 38, it is an offence to sell goods directors of this defunct society? which do not conform to the requirements laid down. Answer:- The Consumer Aff

from the Registrar of Building Societies, (3) As three officers of his department Messrs. Touche Ross & Co., the adminis­ recently spent four months researching trator of the society and the Police Fraud the quality of eggs in retail stores in Unit attached to the Office of the Com­ Brisbane, what were their recommendations missioner for Corporate Affairs are cur­ and have these been implemented? rently receiving close examination. When this examination is completed, a decision (4) Does he know that the C.E.M.A.A. will be mal.le as to the appropriate steps recommended to the Federal Minister for to be taken in this matter. Primary Industry an increase in the Com­ monwealth hen levy from $1 to $2? The honourable member for Archerfield is aware that, through the prompt and (5) Is the implementation of pool decisive actions of the present Government deduction to make up shortfalls in hen in transferring all investors' accounts to levy funds of South Queensland producers the S.G.I.O. Building Society and the the direct result of oversupply in that establishment of the Permanent Building area? Societies Contingency Fund, no depositor, (6) Is every egg that comes to North shareholder or creditor of Queensland Permanent Building Society suffered any Queensland from South Queensland and monetary loss as a result of the collapse Central Queensland Boards through the of this society. Co-ordinating Committee regarded as export surplus and therefore attracts a I again reiterate that, in this or any subsidy from C.E.M.A.A. and, if so, does other similar situation, if any evidence it not follow that North Queensland pro­ of fraud or other criminal offences emerges, ducers are pay:ing their levy for the appropriate action will be taken. privilege of subsidising their competition? (7) What are the qualifications and posi­ tions held in his department by Mr. G. 16. CONSORTING SQUAD, CRIMINAL Stewart and Mr. K. Orange? INVESTIGATION BRANCH; STRENGTH AND CHARGES PREFERRED Mr. K. J. Hooper, pursuant to notice, Answers:- asked the Minister for Mines, Energy and (1) The opportunity is open for cartons Police- - marketed in Queensland to bear a "use by" (1) How many charges per head have date 21 days from the day of packing. The been preferred by C.I.B. members each scheme is a voluntary one and the ,time month for the past 12 months? period is the same regardless of where the eggs are marketed in the State. (2) How many men are attached to the Consorting Squad? (2) Frequent vibration, if severe enough, can affect egg quality by increasing the (3) How many charges have been pre­ incidence of cracked shells. ferred by the Consorting Squad per head each month for the past 12 months? (3) The survey was conducted by my officers, with the assistance and full co-operation of the Egg Marketing Board. Answers:- Recommendations and action taken are ( I) These statistics are not readily avail­ as follows:- able. To obtain this information would require extensive research being under­ (i) Reduce the "use-by" date from 3 taken. I do not propose to divert police weeks to 2 weeks. The Egg Marketing personnel from other urgent duties to Board is looking at the feasibility of undertake this research. doing this (ii) Adopt oiling of eggs as a means of (2) Fifteen. retaining egg quality in retail stores. (3) See answer to (1). This will be tested in trials during the summer. (iii) Consider the feasibility of requir­ ing eggs to be sold from refrigerated 17. EGG MARKETING AND QUALITY; HEN cabinets in retail stores. No action has LEVY been taken on this because it would add Mr. Bertoni, pursuant to notice, asked the considerably to retailers' costs. Minister for Primary Industries- (iv) Encourage marketing of eggs through butcher shops. Recent legislation (!) What is the system on a "use by has cleared the way for this and dis­ (date)" of the Queensland Egg Marketing cussions have taken place between Board? representatives of the -Egg Marketing (2) What is the effect of frequent Board and the Meat and Allied Trades vibration on the quality of eggs? Federation. 3160 Questions Upon Notice [5 DECEMBER 1978] Questions Upon Notice

(v) Consider packing eggs in materials Officers of the Queensland Boating and that slow down quality deterioration. Fisheries Patrol have, on four recent occas­ This would increase packaging costs, and ions in the vicinity of the Hornibrook High­ it is considered that alternative measures, way, spoken with Vietnamese persons using as well as being less costly, are poten­ amateur nets, and found that the nets used tially more effective. and the fish taken have conformed with the (vi) Encourage retailers to improve requirements of the Fisheries Act. conditions under which eggs are kept. (2) A 2-metre scoop net, a 6-metre cast With this objective in mind, board staff net and a 16-metre seine or hauling net are visiting retailers and officers of my may be used by amateur fishermen at all department are preparing an advisory times, including week-ends, to take legal­ leaflet for retailers. sized fish. (4) The honourable member is obviously misinformed. The Council of Egg Market­ ing Authorities of Australia has in fact recommended to the Federal Minister for 19. BARGE RESTAURANT DEVELOPMENT, Primary Industry that the legislation be MAROOCHYDORE amended to provide for a maximum levy of Mr. Prest, pursuant to notice, asked the $2 per hen. No decision has been made Minister for Loool Government and Main to increase the actual levy from the present Roads- $1 per hen. ( I) With reference to the development (5) Pool deductions help to support the of a restaurant over a derelict barge price of eggs sold on the domestic market. beached on the Maroochy River foreshore The price established in southern Queens­ adjacent to Bradman Avenue, Maroochy­ land is used as a basis for egg prices dore, when did the Maroochy Shire Council throughout the State. Pool deductions or its planning committee approve in result from insufficient funds being avail­ principle the development, which includes able from the hen levy to support egg the establishment of a car-park on land on prices in Queensland. the southern side of Bradman Avenue? (6) No. Eggs sold on the domestic (2) What is the present zoning of land market are not regarded as export eggs proposed for the car-park, and does the and do not attract C.E.M.A.A. reimburse­ applicant need to advertise the proposal to ment. allow public objection? (7) Mr. G. D. Stewart and Mr. K. S. (3) Why have the public not been given Orange are husbandry officers in the an opportunity by way of town planning Poultry Section of the Pig and Poultry requirements to object to the use of fore­ Branch of my department. Both officers shore land giving access to the Barge hold the degree of Bachelor of Applied Restaurant development? Science (Poultry Technology) from the Queensland Agricultural College. ( 4) Is one of the partners Jn ,the development, which has caused a public upheaval in the Maroochydore area, a councillor of the Maroochy Shire, namely, 18. USE OF NETS BY AMATEUR FISHERMEN Mr. G. Orpin of Classic Planning and Drafting Company and a member of the Mr. Prest, pursuant to notice, asked the shire council's planning committee, and Minister for Maritime Services and is another Maroochy Shire councillor, Mr. Tourism- K. Mathieson, employed as a surveyor ( I) Is he aware of the statement made with Mathieson and Buckley, involved in by the Queensland Vietnamese Associa­ a further proposed caravan-park develop­ tion president, in reply to accusations that ment at the end of Mai Street, direotly Vietnamese refugees are stripping amateur opposite and approximately 100 m from the fishing spots at each end of the Hornibrook proposed Barge Restaurant development? Highway, that they were amateurs who (5) In view of the circumstances sur­ used standard nets and took home only rounding the developments, the involve­ legal-sized fish? ment of councillors and the public (2) What standard nets capable of catch­ object,ion to the developments, will he ing legal-sized fish are able to be used instigate an immediate investigation and by amateurs on week-ends? report his findings to Parliament?

Answers:- Answers:- (!) The proposed restaurant development ( I) I understand that some statement is situated on tida;l land which is nat appeared in the Press recently concerning subject to the Maroochy Shire Council's the use of amateur nets by Vietnamese town planning saheme. Therefore council refugees, as well as the fish caught by them. approv

explained in the answer to (2), no council (2) Yes. Decision was required in connection with the associated car-park. (3) I have indicated to Mr. Hayes my general support for t,he coruference and (2) I am informed that the developer the probability of Queensland representa­ has an option to purchase four allotments tion at it. The honoumble member will of lanrl diagonally opposite the present ibe aware that many of the inquiry's 36 barge position. The location of the bnd recommendations are of more direct con­ is not precisely known, but land in the cern to other Ministers. Cabinet has locality is presently included in the Resi­ already given preliminary consideration to dential "C" Zone. In this zone, an off­ the report. street car-park may be established without the need to obtain council's consent or a rezoning. Public adYertisement of the 21. BUNDABERG HEARINGS OF pwposa1 is therefore not required. PARLIAMENTARY COMMITTEE ON (3) The foreshore Iand, from which UNEMPLOYMENT under3band a jetty is to be built to the Mr. Akers, pursuant to notice, asked the barge, is part of ,the road reserve and is Minister for Labour Relations,- Crown land. Roads arc not zoned under town planning schemes, and are not sub­ (!) Has his attention been drawn to the ject to town planning control by the local two obviously related articles in the Bunda­ authority. berg "News Mail" of 29 November, one stating that the Bundaberg Trades and (4) I understand that Councillor G. Labor Council is very seriously con­ Orpin has an interest in the restaurant cerned with staging a strike or an illegal propooal. street march in Bundaberg and the other On the site of the caravan park pro­ reporting a typically negative statement by posals-! am advised that applications the member for Bundaberg, complaining have been made to !'he council for the that the Government did not ask him to rezoning of land for two sepanate caravan organise the recent hearings in Bundaberg parks in the vicinity of Mai Street. Neither by the committee of parliamentarians application has yet been referred to me investigating unemployment? and I am not aware of the names of the (2) Is he aware that the T.L.C. was applicants. In any event, when the appti­ requested to make a submission and did cations are submitted in due course, the not do so? names of the applicants will be of no significance, and the applications will be (3) Is he aware that the member for dealt with on town planning grounds. Bundaberg attended the public hearings, which were given excellent Press coverage, (5) From the information presently that neither the member nor any of his available to me, I do not consider that an union puppets offered any suggestions, and investigation is warranted. that the member stated in the "News Mail" of 23 November that he did not offer any suggestions? 20. AusTIL\LIA-WIDE HousiNG CoNVENTION Mr. Akers, pursuant to notice, asked the Answer:- Minister for Works and Housing- (! to 3) I understand the Bundaberg (!) Has he been advised of a proposal Trades and LaJbor Council was requested by the Victorian State Minister of Housing, but failed to make a submission to the Mr. G. P. Hayes, to convene an Australia­ committee of parliamentarians invest­ wide housing convention in Melbourne in igating unemployment. I am also aware February 1979? that the member for Bundaberg attended the public hearing but failed to make any (2) Is he aware that the Executive submission or constructive contribution to Director of the Queensland Master the proceedings. This must surely indicate Builders' Association, Mr. Des Hodgman, that the Opposition is more concerned has expressed his support of this con­ with playing politics than making any con­ vention and expressed the hope that tribution to a genuine effort to reduce Federal and State Housing Ministers will unemplo) ment. respond to the initia!Jives of the Victorian Minister? (3) Is it the intention of the Queensland 22. DEDICATION OF LAND FOR SERVICE Government to be represented at this iROAD, ALBANY CREEK SouTH STATE convention and to make some contr~bution SCHOOL to its proceedings? Mr. Akers, pursuant to notice, asked the Minister for Education- Answers:- (!) Has he reached a decision on the (1) Yes. I recently had discussions with application by the Pine Rivers Shire the Honourable G. P. Hayes. Council for the dedication as a road of 3162 Questions Upon Notice (5 DECEMBER 1978) Questions Upon Notice

sufficient land from the Albany Creek ments are being made to cater for their South State School site for the council requirements at th&t area during the to construct a service road in front of holiday period? the school? (2) Has any long-term planning been (2) Has he been advised that the council made to provide a new kiosk and care­ has allocated sufficient funds to construct taker for this beaut·iful and rela:ting area this service road and pedestrian-operated of the electorate of Mulgrave? lights? (3) Has he been advised that, unless Answers:- approval is given for the dedication of •the land within the next few days, the work (1) As with all developed national parks, will not be completed prior to the opening the visitor facilities provided at Lake of the next school year and children will Eacham, including the much-used picnic be forced to enter the schoolgrounds areas, will be regularly seniced and main­ across half-constructed road-works and tained during the Christmas holiday period. around construction equipment? For food and other purchases, there are shops, cafes etc. in close proximity to Lake Eacham at Malanda, Yungaburra Answers:- and Lake Barrine. (1) On 27 September 1978, I approved (2) Lake Eacham National Park is the the excision from the Keong Road front­ subject of current major reorganisational age of the new Albany Creek South State planning, including eventual elimination of School of an area 4 m deep by 120 m long, through traffic. This will make it an even in accordance with the standard provision more relaxing and safe place for the pub­ of my department. This approval was lic's use and enjoyment. Provision of a passed on to the Department of Works kiosk there will be considered. A residence on 3 October 1978. for a park ranger with caretaker duties is also planned. (2) I have been advised by the honour­ able member for Pine Rivers that the Pine Rivers Shire Council allocated $54,422 to construct a service road and 24. BABINDA BYPASS, BRUCE HIGHWAY pedestrian lights in front of the school. Mr. Armstrong, pursuant to notice, asked (3) I am aware of the insistence and the Minister for Local Government and Main persistence of council in this matter. I Roads- am also aware that council is seeking an excision 9.8 m deep by 156.5 m long in When will the bypass of the Bruce place of the usual provision. This excision Highway at Babinda be commenced, as was sought after the site had been pur­ the old road is the only section of the chased by my department and plans drawn highway in the electorate of Mulgrave to up for the new school. be built and is now quite inadequate for today's traffic? From a council broadsheet and letter dated 13 September 1978, I now find that this council proposes to allow the con­ Answer:- struction of a large shopping centre and associated development immediately adja­ I agree with the honourable member that cent to the new school. the section of the Bruce Highway to which he refers is quite inadequate for today's Any inconvenience or hazard for child­ traffic. As the Commonwealth Roads ren and parents at this new school will be legislation expires at the end of the 1979-80 caused by the insistence of council, not by financial year and as the funding position the planning of my department. It is not beyond that date is not yet known, it is the function of my department to pro­ virtually impossible to predict when funds vide additional expensive land from a new for this particular project may become school site to enable council to develop available. road systems of this type.

25. INTERNATIONAL SUGAR AGREEMENT 23. FACILITIES FOR VISITORS TO LAKE AND LONDON DAILY MARKET EACHAM SUGAR PRICES Mr. Arrnstrong, pursuant to notice, asked Mr. Blake, pursuant to notice, asked the the Minister for Culture, National Parks Minister for Primary Industries- and Recreation- (!) What was the London Daily Price (1) As the Christmas holidays are only per metric ton of sugar on the day a few weeks away and people will be of the inception this year of the provisions flocking to Lake Eac:Jaffi, what arrange- of the International Sugar Agreement? Questions Upon Notice [5 DECEMBER 1978] Questions Upon Notice 3163

(2) On how many occasions has the of the State Forest under the proposed London Daily Price fallen below the price town plan, with consequential development ruling on the day of the inception of the and servicing difficulties? I.S.A. provisions? (2) Have reported consultations between (3) What is the present L.D.P. per councillors, Forestry Department officials metric ton? and Land Commission officers taken place and, if so, what decisions have been (4) What is the average effective gain reached to eliminate or satisfy local in price per tonne, at London Daily Price concern? values, far the period since the inception of the International Sugar Agreement? Answer:-

Answers:- (I & 2) Yes, I am aware of the Press report referred to and advise the honour­ (1) The provisions of the International able member that the matter of excision Sugar Agreement entered into force on 1 from State Forest 207 of an area around January 1978. On the first market day of Jimna has been under consideration for 1978, Tuesday, 3 January, the London some time. However, no final decision has Daily Price was £stg.107 per tonne. yet been reached and consultations are still continuing between council, Forestry (2) The London Daily Price has fallen Department and the Land Administration below £stg.l07 per tonne on three Commission with a view to resolving the occasions this year. It has been below that whole matter, including anything of local value for a total of 175 market days to concern. the end of November. (3) The London Daily Price on December was £stg.99 per tonne. 27. REPORT ON FISH BOARD OPERATIONS; (4) The economic prov!Slons of the FUTURE OF GLADSTONE AND International Sugar Agreement, including BUNDABERG DEPOTS export quota limitations, accumulation of Mr. Blake, pursuant to notice, asked the special stocks and restriction by members Minister for Maritime Services and Tourism- of imports from non-members, are working effectively. Only the operation of the Cl) Why is the Personnel Administration Stock Financing Fund has been deferred, Management Report, which is rumoured owing to delays to ratification of the I.S.A. to contain proposals to close the Queens­ by the United States. These measures have land Fish Board, not available for study been estimated to have withdrawn from the by fishermen and others who earn their market in excess of 2 000 000 tonnes of living from the fishing industry? sugar in 1978. This withdrawal has assisted the statistical situation and thus benefited (2) Will he assure fishermen that the worlcl free-market prices. The sugar Fish Board depots at Gladstone and Bunda­ market's expectation of higher prices in berg are not facing closure, but will remain the coming year is illustrated by the in operation? London sugar futures market prices on 1 December, for the October and December Answers:- 1979 position, of approximately £stg.120 per tonne. (!) I have previously made it clear in answer to a question in the House that As the Deputy Prime Minister, Mr. the consultants' report was commissioned Anthony, said in Tully during November, with a view to assisting the Government to the I.S.A. "despite the stress under which formulate future policies in relation to the it was operating had kept the world sugar marketing of fish products, that it is in price higher than it would have been the nature of a working document, and without an agreement". that it was never intended for release as a public document. (2) The question of the closure of any 26. EXCISION OF JIMNA FROM existing depot is a matter for consideration STATE FoREST by the Fish Board taking into account all relevant factors such as the availability of Mr. Blake, pursuant to notice, asked the alternative receiving facilities for fishermen Minister for Lands, Forestry and Water who supply to the Board and the overall Resources- financial implications of the closure. (!) Is he aware of Press reports stating I can assure the honourable member that he has approved in principle the that the consultants have made no recom­ excision from State Forest 207 of the mendation for the closure of the depots at township area of Jimna and of claims that Gladstone and Bundaberg and that the the proposal will result in a developing Fish Board has no such closure in con­ township being partly within and partly out templation. 3164 Questions Upon Notice [5 DECEMBER 1978] Questions Upon Notice

28. NEW PRICING POLICY FOR CATTLE 29. GROCERY RAIL FREIGHT RATES, GREAT

Queensland have an inspection of the pro­ (2) Is he also aware that there exists posed aircraft mooted to service these a differential of up to lOc per gallon towns, with a B.P.A. official to explain between the price paid to the oil company the new proposed services? by independent retailers and the price paid by company-tied lessee retailers? Answer:- (3) Will legislation recently outlined by I am advised that no such transfer pro­ the Federal Minister for Business and posals have been received by the Commis­ Consumer Affairs eliminate all unfair price sioner for Transport, but the honourable discrimination against tied petrol retailers? member may rest assured that, if any such proposals are received, they will be subject (4) What indications has he as to when to a most critical examination to ensure this legislation will become law? that in the public interest due account is (5) Will complementary State legislation taken of their effects on the towns of the be necessary or will existing legislation m id-west. prohibit these practices?

31. CoMPTON ROAD UNDERPASS Answer:- Mn. Kyburz, pursuant to notice, asked the (1 to 5) I am aware that oil companies Minister for Local Government and Main do have differing wholesale prices in respect Roads- of retail outlets and, as an example, refer to Wthat are the current plans for the the tremendous discounts that an oil com­ Compton Road underpass as far as the pany offered to ACTU-Solo outlets. These inter-departmental committee is concerned, discounts were well in excess of the mar­ and what is the Albert Shire's share of gins provided for other retailers of the any modification ·to road-works? same oil company's products. As the honourable member will be aware, the proposals outlined by the Commonwealth Answer:- are at present under active consideration by ! oongratulate the honourable member all interested parties. In due course, the for Salisbury for her many representations Commonwealth can be expected to acquaint to me in connection with the proposed the States of its final legislative proposals Compton Road underpass. I am sure that and possibly may ask the States to fill any she will be happy to know that agreement legislative voids for which the Common­ has been reached between the various wealth may not have the constitutional departments on the initiative of the Co­ power. The Queensland Government will ordinator--General's Department. The decide its policy on any Commonwealth various departments have agreed that work requests at that time. costing some millions of dollars should pro­ ceed. The breakup of the responsibility will be in the order of 70 per cent 'lo the Crown, 15 per cent to the Albert Shire 33. BARGE RESTAURANT DEVELOPMENT, Council and 15 per cent to the Brisbane MAROOCHYDORE City Council. The Commissioner for Railways (Mr. Goldston) is to be corn­ Mr. Hansen, pursuant to notice, asked the mended for the effort he has put into the Minister for Maritime Services and Tourism-- solution of this problem. The railway line (1) With reference to the development has to be raised to provide sufficient of a licensed restaurant over a derelict height for traffic on the Compton Road underpass. barge beached on the south bank of the Maroochy River adjacent to Bradman Because of the work the honourable A venue, Maroochydore, when did the member has had to do over the many Harbours and Marine Department approve years she has been making representations this development? to me about this matter, I believe that when the underpass is completed it should (2) Prior to the approval being given, be referred to as the "Kyburz Pass", what investigations were carried out by the which is not to ·be confused with the department into silting, flooding and other Khyber Pass. aspects affecting the river and foreshore? (3) Is the barge neither floating nor 32. DIScRIMINATION BY OIL CoMPANIEs serviceable and is it already partly filled AGAINST SERVICE STATION with concrete, thus making it an immovable PROPRIETORS mass? Mr. Hansen, pursuant to notice, asked the Minister for Labour Relations- Answers:- (!) Is he aware of the extent of dis­ crimination by oil companies against ( I) The sanction of the Governor in service station proprietors? Council pursuant to Section 86 of the 3166 Questions Upon Notice (5 DECEMBER 1978] Questions Upon Notice

Harbours Act 1955-1976 to the construc­ 35. AUTIIORITY OF DISTRICT FORESTER tion of a restaurant and jetty in the TO AUTI-IORISE CUTTING OF TIMBER 1Iaroochy River below high-water mark was given on 2 November 1978. Mrs. Kippin, pursuant to notice. asked the Minister for Lands, Forestry and Water (2) There have been no discernible Resources- changes in the levels of the foreshore in the area while the barge has been in its (1) When was the delegation of auth­ present position, and its presence will cer­ ority with regard to the value of forestry tainly not affe{:t flood heights in the timber that a district forester may approve Maroochy River. for sale last increased? (2) As the increase in the value of (3) Yes. timber has reduced the volume of timber that a district forester may approve at any one time to an uneconomic level and cutters have to stop operations while per­ 34. MANUFACTURE /'.ND USE OF VITREOUS mission to cut further timber is sought CLAY PIPES from the Brisbane office of the Forestry Department, will he investigate the pos­ Mr. Hansen, pursuant to notice, asked sibility of expressing this autho11ity in terms the Minister for Industry and Administrative of volume of timber rather than monetary Services- value? (1) Is he aware of the present problems facing manufacturers of vitreous clay Answers:- pipes in Queensland? (1) Delegations of authority from the (2) What steps has the Government Conservator of Forests to district foresters taken to ensure the continuing manufacture to authorise them to make sales of forest of the pipes in Queensland? products were last increased as follows:- (3) Do Government tenders specify V.C. (a) milling timber and sleeper timber, pipes or at least alternative quotes for 7 June 1972; V.C. pipes as against P.V.C. piping, or are (b) round timber, I October 1970. the specifications left entirely to the These delegations are currently under architect? review, and the level of authority in the case of round timbers has recently been increased as an interim measure, with my Answer:- approval, from $400 to $1000. This fol­ lowed representations by the honourable (1 to 3) I am, of course, aware of the member. difficulties facing the vitrified clay pipe (2) The possibility that levels may be industry. The industry's problems arise in set on a volume rather than a monetary the main from increased competition in basis is being considered in conjunction sewerage schemes from P.V.C., cast-iron, with the review mentioned above. asbestos-cement and concrete pipes. P.V.C. poses the greatest challenge.

Government tenders generally provide 36. REFORESTATION PROGRAMME, for the use of alternative products. Many RA YEN SHOE AREA factors need to be taken into account, however, before a decision is taken as to Mrs. Kippin, pursuant to notice, asked what class of pipe is to be used for a the Minister for Lands, Forestry and Water particular project. Ground conditions, Resources- iaying costs and handling characteristics Further to my question on 28 November are all matters which require consideration. concerning reforestation in the Ravenshoe In an endeavour to assist the industry, area, will he undertake to visit existing the State Government has approved that privately owned reforestation programmes local authorities be permitted to grant a that have established carabea pine, 15 per cent preference to vitrified clay tallow-wood, blackbutt and rose gum on pipes over the P.V.C. product. approximately 40 to 50 ha of land over a period of 30 years? Furthermore, discussions are to be held shortly between governmental officers and Answer:- representatives of the industry and of the principal users in an endeavour to help I will be happy to visit plantation areas overcome the problems facing vitrified on private land in the Ravenshoe area at clay pipe manufacturers. the first suitable opportunity. Questions Upon Notice [5 DECEMBER 1978] Questions Upon Notice 3167

37. QUALITY OF CEMENT PRODUCED BY The TAFE division is presently investigat­ QuEENSLAND CEMENT & LIME Co. LTD. ing alternative sites within the Wynnum/ Mr. Shaw, pursuant to notice, asked the Manly I Lot a area. Premier- (!) Has the Government-supported monopoly, Queensland Cement & Lime Company Ltd., refused to guarantee the 39. SETTING UP OF BUSINESSES ON MAIN standard of its product and have con­ RoADS tractors had to bear huge costs in replacing Mr. Ahem for Dr. Lockwood, pursuant to concrete work that failed to conform to notice, asked the Minister for Local Govern­ specifications set down by the customer ment and Main Roads- when he placed his order? What authority is required for estate (2) Because of the special position that agents, farmers and other retailers to set this company enjoys in Queensland, will up business either fronting or actually on his Government take action to ensure a main road or a limited access main wad? that material supplied by it conforms to specifications? Answer:- Answer:- In answering the question asked by the honourable member, I should preface my (! & 2) Rather than attempt to throw doubt on a quality product, the remarks by expressing the view that the honourable member should devote his time setting up of businesses within the road to supporting Queensland manufacturers boundaries is a practice which in general who are utilising the resources of this is actively discouraged. Further, it is State and providing employment for difficult to give general all-embracing Queenslanders. answers to the question and the circum­ stances in particular cases may well invali­ The Queensland Cement & Lime Com­ date the generalised answers which follow. pany Ltd. produces various types of cem­ ent, all of which, it guarantees, conforms First, it seems desirable to refer to the to the appropriate Australian Standard limited access aspect of the question. The Specifications. significance of the limited access provisions in the Main Roads Act is that the Com­ My Government has certainly encouraged missioner of Main Roads is given the the company to proceed with its expansion power to control the points of entry or exit plans in the knowledge that these plans to abutting properties. This is necessary so will provide more employment opportun­ that, in given situations, the road designers ities in this State and ensure that Queens­ can design on the basis of traffic joining the land's cement requirements are met the traffic stream at predetermined points, from within the State. thus providing for smoother traffic flow and greater safety. Proposals for development of properties 38. TECHNICAL AND FURTHER EDUCATION fronting any road must be approved by the CENTRE, WYNNUM relevant local authority. If the road is a limited access road declared under the Mr. Shaw, pursuant to notice, asked the Main Roads Act, then the approval of the Minister for Education- Commissioner of Main Roads to the access (!) Was a proposal to establish a tech­ points is also required. nical and vocational education centre Proposals for development within the in the Wynnum electorate considered by road boundaries on main roads are, as I his depar·tment during the last two years have said, in general actively discouraged. and, if so, what was the outcome? In the rare exceptional cases where there (2) Has a previous proposal to estab­ is no structure involved, the proposal must lish a technical and further education be approved by the Superintendent of centre on land at Whites Road, Lota, Traffic. Where a structure or fixture is been rejected, and is his department involved, the approval of the Commissioner negotiating for the purchase of other land of Main Roads is required. to be used for this purpose in the Wynnum area?

Answers:- 40. PROOF OF AGE ON SCHOOL ENTRY (1) Yes. Consideration has been given Mr. Ahern for Dr. Lockwood, pursuant to to the establishment of a college of TAFE notice, asked the Minister for Education- at Wynnum/Lota in the next 10-year (!) What proof of age will be required period, finances permitting. for children entering pre-school and (2) My department did have a TAFE primary school L'1 1979? reserve at Whites Road. However, this (2) If birth certificates are required, site was not large enough for a modern will he publicise this fact and encourage technical and further education college. early procurement of these certificates? 3168 Questions Upon Notice [5 DECEMBER 1978] Questions Without Notice

Answers:- Answers:- (1) A parent presenting a child for enrol­ (!) Two surveys of recreational uses of ment at a State pre-school centre or in forestry areas have been conducted on year 1 at a State primary school is expected Fraser Island, one in December 1977- to be able to furnish an acceptable proof of January 1978 and the other in August 1978. age of the child. An acceptable form of These surveys were conducted by officers proof would be a birth certificate extract, of the Department of Forestry and National a passport entry, a Maternal and Child Parks and Wildlife Service on behalf of Welfare Centre record, a baptismal certifi­ the inter-departmental committee respon­ cate or a copy of a newspaper announce­ sible for preparation of a management ment of the child's birth. Most parents plan for Fraser Island. would have some acceptable form of proof (2) The findings from these surveys have on hand. been forwarded to the inter-departmental (2) Birth certificate extracts constitute committee which, it is expected, will report one acceptable form of proof. There is to the Co-ordinator-General. In the cir­ no need for parents to obtain birth cer­ cumstances, it would be more appropriate tificate extracts if some other acceptable to address this request for the findings of form of proof is available to them. the survey to the Honourable the Premier. (3) So far, the Department of Forestry has provided camping facilities at Central 41. ATTRACTION OF INDUSTRY BY Station and has developed several walking ToowooMBA ToURISM AND trails on Fraser Island. Further action by DEVELOPMENT BOARD the Department of Forestry will be depen­ Mr. Ahern for Dr. Lockwood, pursuant to dent to a large extent on the endorsement, notice, asked the Minister for Industry and or otherwise, by the inter-departmental Administrative Services- committee of the results of these surveys, and on the availability of funds to improve Has he noted the efforts of the Too­ recreational facilities. woomba Tourism and Development Board to attract independently new industries to Toowoomba, and will he support its 43. NEw ScHOOLs, BuNDABERG AREA efforts? Mr. Powell, pursuant to notice, asked the Answer:- Minister for Education- ! am aware of the excellent work being As both the Walkervale and West Bunda­ done by the Toowoomba Tourism and berg State Schools have grown beyond Development Board. Like the honourable what is considered to be a reasonable member who asked the question, the board size, what plans does his department have is most active in its endeavours to attract to establish a further school to the west industry to Toowoomba. The Toowoomba of Bundaberg and to utilise the primary Tourism and Development Board works school site at Kepnock? in the closest co-operation with my officers Answer:- and is the department's representative in the local administration of the Wilsonton High priority has been given in my Crown Industrial Estate. As is the case department to the provision of a new with other development boards throughout State primary school in the Millbank/ A voca the State where Crown industrial estates Heights area to relieve the Bundaberg West are established in their particular areas, State School. the Toowoomba Tourism and Development The site at Kepnock is held for a future Board is paid an annual estate management primary school in that area. However, fee of $5,000 by the Department of Com­ present planning envisages the completion mercial and Industrial Development. of the Bundaberg East complex on the new site where the pre-school has already been constructed. 42. RECREATIONAL UsE OF FORESTRY AREAS Mr. Powell, pursuant to notice, asked the QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE Minister for Lands, Forestry and Water Resources- GovERNMENT AssisTANCE TO GAYNDAH PRIMARY PRODUCERS ( I) Is he aware that the Forestrv Department has conducted surveys in th-e Mr. SIMPSON: I ask the Premier: What past two years on the recreational uses of assistance can primary producers at Gayndah forestry areas? expect from the State Government following (2) With reference to the Fraser Island the devastating storm which struck the area forestry areas, will he reveal the findings at the week-end? of the surveys? Mr. BJELKE-PETERSEN: With the Min­ (3) What action does his department ister for Works and Housing, I went to intend to take as a result of the surveys? Gayndah on Sunday morning to inspect the Questions Without Notiu [5 DECEMBER 1978] Questions Without Notice 3169 damage, which was very extensive. Tremen­ Strait i~ands? In view of what appears to dous losses have been inflicted on 22 pro­ be an unnecessary waste of public money, ducers, some of whom have lost all their will the Minister explain the reason for this income for at least the next two years. The apparent exclusion of security police from damage will amount to approximately the official aircraft, how long such a ruling $1,000,000. This matter was considered at has applied, and on whose initiative or recom­ yesterday's Cabinet meeting but, before we mendation it was introduced? decide what support will be given, we will await a report from officers of the Depart­ Mr. CAMM: I am unaware, really, of ment of Primary Industries who were sent to what the member is asking, but if he used the area immediatelY to assess the full extent his own common sense he wouJd realise of the damage. • that the Premier is not at risk when he is up in the air and there is no need for lt might interest honourable members to police assigned to protect hLm to be with know that there is another way in which him there. But they have to be on the these people could get considerable support. ground Wlhen the Premier lands at a par­ They would be helped if the Leader of the ticular spot so that they can survey the Opposition were to pay the debts he owes people who are there and afford protection .around the area. On Sunday, I was to him. The same applies when he returns; approached by a number of people who the police have to be here on the ground. stated that he owed the council money, that There is no need for policemen to be with he owed one storekeeper $800, and that he the Premier up in the air, because I do not Dwed another storekeeper $400. It would know of anyone whom he wouJrl invite into help considerably if the Leader of the that plane who would create any risk to his Opposition would pay some of these debts. life. Mr. CASEY: I rise to a point of order. The Premier is completely incorrect. I have PROPOSED STREET MARCH no debts in Gayndah. The remarks he made .are completely offensive to me and I ask Mr. GLASSON: I ask the Premier: Has he that they be withdrawn. received any communication from the Trades and Labor Council relative to the proposed Mr. SPEAKER: Order! The Leader of the street march on Thursday? If so, w:ill he Opposition claims that he owes no money in indicate the present position with regard to Gayndah, and I ask the Premier to accept the thinking of the Trades and Labor CounciJl that statement. on the matter? Mr. BJELKE..PETERSEN: In accordance Mr. BJELKE-PETERSEN: I have received with your requirements, Mr. Speaker, I with­ a letter and enolosure from the Trades and draw the statement. I suggest the Leader of Labor Council, which I will table for the Opposition does not go back to Gayndah. inclusion in "Hansard". The letter indicates Before he went into liquidation he owed quite the basis on which members of the Trades .a deal of money, and he skidded out and left and Labor Council approached me to change them holding the bag. The people up there the whole system of dealing with marches .asked whether the honourable member for in the streets; in other words, to give them Mackay, now that he is the Leader of the a free go and to place no responsibility or Opposition and receiving a good salary, will onus on them whatsoever. Having in mind try to help meet some of the commitments that the Left particularly has a policy of of those poor people in Gayndah. They revolution and violence, one only needs to want to know what his standards will be read what they say. now. I suggest that he should show a little bit of moral courage and determination in I am also going to table for inclusion in order to redeem his past. "Hansard" the newspaper article wr,itten about the police the other day. I want to ask: How does the Queensland law differ from that in the Labor States of New South TRAVEL BY PREMIER's SECURITY POLICE ON Wales and Victoria? I should like to ask GovERNMENT AlRCR<\.FT that question of members of the Trades and Mr. FOURAS: I ask the Minister for Labor Council. What civil liberties are they Mines, Energy and Police: Is it a fact that denied, I should like to ask? Why are they police officers assigned to security duty in refusing to apply for a permit in Brisbane, relation to the Premier have, for some reason although they did that in Bundaberg, Glad­ not yet announced, suddenly ceased travelling stone and Rockhampton? Why have they with him on the official Government aircraft? refused to apply? Why are they refusing Did the two officers engaged in such protec­ to march on a Saturday afternoon, I should tion travel to and from Perth for the recent also like to ask them? Why is our law constitutional conference by commercial air­ unjust, as they say? They can't demonstrate craft, even though the official aircraft used it. They are entirely wrong. to transport the Premier on the same journey One only has to take the position down was almost empty? Did the same provision in Victoria. They point out to me in this of separate travel by commercial aircraft letter how good it is there. Last night on apply also to and from Cairns in regard to T.V. we saw how they put barricades across the recent tour by the Premier of the Torres the street and a.ll these sorts of things. 3170 Questions Without Notice [5 DECEMBER 1978] Questions Without Notice

No, I think that the law, outlined in the "The conference was obviously very suc­ advertisement we put in the paper today, sets cessful, for the City of Melbourne has, out how fair, and more than fair, we are since then, under the agreed upon rules, in Queew>land. The Trades and Labor most of which were adopted by the Govern­ Council, of course, has got itself in a fix ment, seen numerous marches and rallies with the Left. The groupers are on the many times larger than would be possible one side and those in the extreme Left in Brisbane, with none of the confrontation are on the other side. There they are. So situations as we have here and with a they come up with this sort of weak com­ publicly accepted minimal disruption of promise which operates in Victoria, but traffic. which does not mean anything. "I am enclosing herewith a report of the Victorian conference referred to, as An Opposition Member interjected. prepared by the Under Secretary to the Premier's Depar,tment, Mr. Di!Jon. Mr. BJELI\E-PETERSEN: I don't know what side the honourable member is on, "Please note the wide representation at any,way. the Conference. Whereupon the honourable gentleman laid "I am certain that if you were to emulate the following letter (with enclosure) and the Victorian Premier, the same degree of newspaper article on the table:- unanimity could be reached here and would be faithfully adhered to by all concerned. "TRADES & LABOR CoUNCIL OF QUEENSLAND "My President and I beEeve that .if you "STATE BRANCH A.C.T.U. BRISBANE were prepared to sponsor a similar con­ "H. Hauenschild, President ference and accept its recommendations "F. Whitby, Secretary as the Victorian Premier did in 1971, prior to the next Trades and Labor "Room No. 1, Council meeting to be held on Wednesday "Trades Hall, 6th December, that meeting would consider "Brisbane 4000. abandoning its proposed march on lhe "30th November, 1978. following day. "The Honourable J. Bjelke-Petersen, "We believe there is still time to achieve "Premier of Queensland, this result. "Execut,ive Bui,lding, "Yours faithfully, "100 George Street, "Brisbane, Q. 4000. "F. Whitby, "General Secretary... "Dear Sir, "Assemblies and Processions "It was reported to my President and "Rules of Conduct myself that in a television news programme on the A.B.C. on the evening of Monday "The foLlowing were present:- 27th November you made a caLl on the Rahbi J. Levi, Temple Beth Israel; Trades and Labor Council of Queensland The Right Reverend Monsignor L. M. to call off its rally and march proposal Clarke, Vicar General, St. Patrick's for Thursday 7th December on the issue Cathedral; of street march legislation in this State. The Rev. J. W. R. Westerman, Vic­ "When we received these reports on the torian Council of Ohurx:hes (Commission morning of Tuesday 28th November I on Social Questions); immediately tJCied to make contact with Mr. John Cain, Law Institute of Vic­ your Under Secretary to obtain confirma­ toria; tion of the call you were reported to have Mr. Kenneth Newcombe, Australian made in the television broadcast. Union of Students; "It was not until noon that I was finally Mr. F. H. Herd, Melbourne City able to speak to a very Senior Officer Council; of your Department, to whom I made my Mr. K. C. Stone, Trades Hall Council; request for the appropriate written con­ Mr. John Bennett, Victorian Council firmation. for Civil Liberties; "Now, two days later, we are still no Assistant Commissioner Braybrook and wiser as to the specific call you made. Superintendent Hickey, Representing "We now propose that you seriously Chief Commissioner of Police; consider taking urgent action to do as the Mr. R. L. Underwood, Chief Sec­ Victorian Premier did in October of 1971 retary's Office; and to introduce rules of conduct for assemblies Mr. J. V. Dillon, Under Secretary and processions. (Chairman). "The Victorian Premier called .together "Conference considered the terms of ref­ a number of organisations with an interest erence contained in your memorandum in the subject, under the Chairmanship and unanimously agreed that the following of his Under Secretary, to determine rules guide lines should be observed by persons of conduct which met the approval of all. participating or intending to paJCticipate Questions Without Notice [5 DECEMBER 1978] Questions Without Notice 3171 in any procession or assembly in a street "The Conference noted with concern -or public place and by members of the that on occasions certain actions of mem­ Police Force who are required to regulate bers of the mass media can influence the and control such processions or behaviour of persons in crowd situations assemblies:- and the mass media should show greater (1) That the organisers of any intended responsibility. procession or assembly in a street or "The Conference agreed by majority public place should not be required to decision to recommend that, in lieu of the seek a permit for such procession or wearing of numbers, the names of the assembly but have an obligation to give members of t·he Police should be stitched reasonable notice, having regard to the on their uniforms so as to be clearly circumstances, to the Police and readable. municipal authority. "Conference did not support a motion (2) That reasonable directions of the that independent observers should be ,Police should be complied with by appointed to attend a procession or members of a procession or assembly. assemrb1y to report impartially upon acts (3) That the use of marshals to con­ witnessed by them. trol processions or assemblies is desirable. "In your name, I thanked the delegates (4) That organisers should ensure, as present for their attendance and for their far as possible, that offensive banners, contr~bution to the debate and the recom­ placards and uniforms are not used in mendations agreed to. processions or assemblies. "I am pleased to place on record the (5) 'Jlhat the Police and the organisers constructive and co-operative approach to should have preliminary discussions in this complex problem by every member every case. Police should be prepared of the Conference. to take the initiative in making contact with organisers where possible. "J. V. DiHon, "Under Secretary. (6) That the Police should use a public address system or loud hailers "21 October, 1971" to warn or advise the assembly, or give reasonable directions. "THE FEELINGS OF THAT THIN BLUE LINE (7) That Police personnel in control of an assembly or procession should be By Detective Senior Sergeant Jim Wilson carefully selected. "How does it feel to be a member of (8) That Police should be tolerant the 'Thin Blue Line' facing an angry mob and should use great discretion in taking of dissidents? In a word-'Terrifying'. proceedings against persons who may be offending against the Summary Offences "Each and every policeman or woman Act. who steps onto the street to honour their oath-'I swear to protect life and prop­ (9) 'Jlhat the procedures at Police erty', if they are prepared to admit it­ Stations for bail should be revised with has at times felt that fear. But they a view to expediting the release of per­ push the fear behind them, and go back sons in custody. into the melee. (10) That legal and physical facilities "Usually after the initial shock of pain he made available where large numbers and despair and a little medical assistance .of persons are taken into custody and in the quietness of the station, their mates procedures for their release or bail may assist in restoring their spirits with phrases not be completed for some time. such as: 'I've called mum and the kids and (11) That persons committing acts of told them you'll be home as soon as the violence, wiLful damage or other serious swelling has gone down'. .oflences should be arrested and charged. "Of course while the crowd is chanting Arrests should be made with the mini­ 'assault-assault---.,police assault' no one, mum of necessary force. apart from his mates, is interested in the "The foregoing recommendations of Con­ sergeant who has been savagely bitten by ference are acknowledged to be appropriate a 'peaceful demonstrator' leaving a wound .only where the general intentions of the a mad dog would be proud of . persons engaged in the procession or "Nor is there sympathy for the police assembly are lawful. The control of per­ who are knocked down and kicked before sons involved in acts of violence or in being rescued by their mates from the the commission of serious oflences is not mob. within the contemplation of the Con­ ference. "During the morning of October 30, 1978 my wife had been overly attentive, "That Conference commended as a just as she will be this week. I knew model briefing to the Police the first why. She was no stranger to seeing the moratorium briefing of Assistant Com­ results of violence, having been a police­ missioner Braybrook dated 8 May 1970. man's wife for almost 25 years. 3172 Questions Without Notice [5 DECEMBER 1978] Questions Without Notice

"As a new bride she had been whisked "These items brightened us no end, as from the shelter of her home in Bri~bane no protective gear was being issued. Any­ to begin a new life I 600 kilometres north, way, probably it would never happen. in the beautiful town named Ayr. "If there were a shower of stone.-; I "About a week later her mint-new thought lightheartedly maybe one could husband came into the bedroom. She draw the baton and play them back to gushed out the exciting story of the big the crowd. brawl in the main street she had seen from the verandah, when some fellow got "Commonsense prevailed and I realised stuck into a polkeman with a crutch. that, if that happened, I would immediately be accused of 'Police Brutality'. ",I was loath to turn on the light, and 'I shall never forget the look of shock "Anyway the stones probably would miss and amazement on her pretty young face me. I'm a mere 190 cm and 114 kg ... when she saw her very own gladiator a wisp of a lad and a really smaJ.l target. standing before her covered in blood from "We climbed aboard the buses and went head to foot. forth once again to ensure that law and "I was that unfortunate policeman order was maintained in the streets of ducking and dodging the wooden crutch. old Brisbane. "Rudi Nureyev would have been proud " 'Come on let's hear it for the boys of the way I pirouetted and backpeda1led, in blue. Good on yer boys, don't let them until caught off balance. rule the streets!' With that cry came "Since then there have been untold spontaneous applause from the crowd times when, tired and hurt, I have returned .behind me, and my reverie was cut short. to the comJort of home. I came back to the scene with a jolt. "A similar story unfolds in so many "After almost one and one half hours police homes. Sadly, occasionally some of of being the target for name calling, such us never quite make it. as 'Fascist Pig', 'Hit.Jer's beasts' and 'brute', "On that October Monday, I stood with and a number of references to the matri­ 649 other police in the oldest police monial state of my parents at the time and citizens youth oluh in Queensland, and of my birth, it was indeed a shock to listened intently to the instructions being realise that the whole wot!d was not given by our Deputy Commissioner (Mr. against the police. V ern MacDonald). "There was still many decent law-abiding "The law covering street processions citizens in Brisbane. and marches was reiterated. "Why were some 27 constables, two "We were told this demonstration was senior sergeants and one 1Inspector of to be peaceful: that an assurance had been Police, spread out at about two~metre given by Senator Georges that instructions .intervals along Adelaide Street and into had been issued to those participating that A1bert Street? they were to go quietly if arrested. "Was an invasion imminent? A possible "There was a sigh of relief from some, riot? Or was it because of a few dissidents others were just that little bit sceptical­ who demanded of the people of Brisbane and, as future events proved, rightly so. that they be allowed to disrupt both pedestrian and vehicular traffic in the "Mr. MacDonald did not mince words heart of the city, at any given time on any in instructing that the use of batons was day of the week (more particularly at forbidden, unless in self-defence where all 1peak traffic time) by marching 8 to 10 else had failed. abreast along the main thoroughfares of "In no circumstances were sidearms to rhis city? be carried. "They cry, 'We demand our civil " 'The law adequately protects a police liberties' with no thought for the thousands officer acting lawfully in the execution of of workers endeavouring to return home his duty. If force is used, equal force at that time in the evening. is allowed to subdue such force'. "Consider for one moment the incon­ "He made it abundantly clear to every­ venience caused to members of the com­ one that unlawful acts by the police on munity when their regular bus is directed duty would be quickly dealt \Vith, but that from Adelaide Street, and the new route to date all police had performed their is unknown to them. duties within the limits of the la\v. "If there was one there were 50 inquiries "Then came the clangers-information from primary school children to t'he very had been received that two well known elderly, 'Where is my bus?' rebels had knives and had threatened to use them. Also that female associates of "Then leading the multitude of followers some of the more radical dissidents had walked the two 'La·w Makers' who had been collecting stones for use against the transformed themselves from that role to police. self-confessed 'Law Breakers'. Questions Without Notice [5 DECEMBER 1978] Questions Without Notice 3173

"I could not hear the words spoken over "Into the crowd rush the police to the loudspeakers, but I could certainly arrest the thrower, who has been seen and sense the mood of the crowd. identified. "The professional 'whips' were at their "The crowd yells: 'Beasts, brutes, Hitler's grandest, dancing and prancing, gesticu­ thugs', as the police take the offender lating to the mob, whipping them into a from the crowd, receiving kidney punches frenzy. and skinned shins. "Then the fateful moment arrived as "After four or five skirmishes and the they came onto the street, hundreds of departure of overburdened 'paddy waggons', bodies, row upon row, arms linked, yelling it is suddenly quiet. the words of revoLution, the opening words of which seem to scream into my "Another mass rush for the streets, brain, 'Shoot all the Judges, kill all the more arrests, more singing, shouting and police . . .' and they were in the mood obscenities, and suddently four of us are to do it. being pushed backwards. "Peaceful demonstration . . . my eye! "The few remaining demonstrators gather "Here they come again. How aun I, around us. 'We shall not be moved', they alone, going to stop this wave of humanity? sing. Then into the song of revolution, and then 'Workers Unite'. "Listen mate, you are not alone. Look along the line, Vhere is at least one police­ "Out of sheer curiosity, I asked one man for every 10 of them ... put up of the young women when she had last your hand . . . 'Stop. You are taking part worked. 'Mind your own - business. in an unlawful procession. I direct you We're doing this for you, too, you know'. to return to the footpath'. "A;l! these beautiful people, some reeking "In answer, 'Get ' and other of liquor, mixed with the aroma of body .niceties ... 'Make way, we're coming sweat, unwashed clothes and dirty bare through'. feet, were doing all this for me. "The mob reaches a point about level "Oh, well, another day, another dollar. with the Albert Street entrance to the Not too many injuries; no deaths ... Commonwealth Bank, and there, con­ .thank God". fronting them, are a few rows of the boys in blue. "The mob pushes from behind. Then ALBANY CREEK SouTH STATE ScHooL the police close in behind them. Suddenly there is an eruption; a demonstrator kicks Mr. AKERS: In directing a question to a policeman. the Minister for Education, I refer to his answer to question No. 22 this morning and "A woman does the same, another bites, to his reference to several matters, including others scratch . . . no 'brutality' here, an approval by the Pine Rivers Shire Council the police are on the receiving end. of a shopping centre adjacent to the Albany "The police ta'ke one then another to Creek South State School. From the word­ the 'Paddy Wagon' closely followed by ing of the answer, it would appear that the nl.llli1erous others who have defied the law. Minister's advisers do not fully understand the matter. I now ask: Will the Minister "Then the fun really gets under way. visit the site in the immediate future to see the chant begins . . . 'assault-assault­ for himself the problems and the dangers police assault'. Haven't you slightly to schoolchildren and the actions that the mixed the facts? It is the police who are shire council is prepared to take to over­ being assaulted . . . come them? "The first loads are on their way to the watch-house. One brave soul among Mr. BIRD: I have made myself fully aware the demonstrators shouts, 'Let's march of the recommendations of my own depart­ again' . . . the takers are noticeable by ment and the Department of 'Norks and also their absence. of the recommendation of the Pine Rivers Shire Council. I am firmly of the opinion "The same man yells: 'Do you want a leader?' The crowd (in unison), 'Yes.' that our recommendation as set out on the He bravely steps from the sanctity of the plans should fully meet the requirements of footpath into the arms of the police. He the school and of the parents and the students is a;lone. of the school. However, I am prepared to go and inspect the site personally at the "Then there is a stand-off while ooth earliest possible time, but I cannot give any sides regroup . . . no stones flying but indication now as to when that will be. eggs, bottles and oranges are plentiful, a lone rubber scuff comes flying through the air, striking a young consta>ble on the Mr. SPEAKER: Order! The time allotted face. for questions has now expired. 3174 Harbours Act [5 DECEMBER 1978] Amendment Bill

HARBOURS ACT AMENDMENT BILL the ballot-paper, and the Bill provides for the form of ballot-paper to be amended so as INITIATION IN CoMMITTEE to insert the words "signature of voter" in (The Chairman of Committees, Mr. W. D. place of the word "voter", which wiiJ clarify Hewitt, Greenslopes, in the chair) that the voter's signature is required in that particular place on the attachment. Hon. A. M. HODGES (Gympie-Minister for Maritime Services and Tourism) (12.17 The form of ballot-paper as amended by p.m.): I move-- the Bill will be identical in those two ways "That a Bill be introduced to amend with a similar ballot-paper in use at local the Harbours Act 1955-1976 in certain authority elections. particulars." The Bill also contains provisions relating Some of the provisions contained in the Bill to lands held by harbour boards. In certain follow requests received from the Queens­ sections of the present Act, the expression land Harbour Boards' Association and the "land vested in or otherwise held" is used Local Government Association of Queens­ in referring to lands held by a harbour board. land, and other provisions are considered Briefly the sections provide as foHows:- necessary and desirable for the more effec­ Section 62A-A harbour board is tive working of harbour boards in the State. required to designate its lands as "harbour lands" or "industrial lands". The Bill extends the present definition of the term "harbour works" to include the Section 75A-A harbour board has cer­ meaning "small craft facility". The present tain remedial powers in respect of goods meaning of the term "harbour works" abandoned on its lands. includes such works as docks, wharves, bridges Section 75B-This section makes it an and breakwaters. A small craft facility con­ offence to put litter on a harbour Board's structed by the Crown or by the Harbours lands. Corporation is usually placed under the con­ Section 76A-Harbour lands are not rate­ trol of a harbour board or local authority able by the local authority unless such by Order in Council by a provision in the lands are held or used by a person other Act that refers to "harbour works", and it is than the harbour board in which such necessary that the definition of the term lands are vested or otherwise held. "Harbour works" be extended to include a small craft facility. The expression "Land vested in or other­ The next provision in the Bill relates to wise held" has been interpreted as not election of members of harbour boards by including reserves of Crown land under the members of local authorities. The Act sets control of a harbour board under the Land down the procedure to be adopted at a har­ Act. Certain reserves of Crown land are, bour board triennial election or extraordinary pursuant to the Land Act, under the control election in the case where a group of two of harbour boards as trustees, and it is or mare local authorities in a harbour board desirable that the sections of the Harbours district is required to elect one or more Act I have quoted also apply to such members of the harbour board. reserves, and the Bill provides accordingly. The group of local authorities concerned The Bill also deals with the powers of holds an election for the appointment of the harbour boards to grant licences and permits member or members to the harbour board for the use and occupation of their lands. and the voters at the election comprise the The Act empowers a harbour board to grant members of each of the local authorities. a licence or permit for the use and occupa­ tion of lands vested in or held by it or Crown The form of ballot-paper for use at the land under its control, and a permit for the election is prescribed by the Act, and the use and occupation of part of the foreshore Local Government Association of Queens­ or tidal land or tidal water in the harbour land has submitted that the form of ballot­ and vacant Crown land contiguous to a paper as presently prescribed is not completely foreshore. Under the Act, as it now stands, secret. The ballot-paper as prescribed pro­ such a licence or permit may be granted vides for gummed edges on the top and bot­ only for a use involving the construction of tom of the ballot-paper but not on the sides, works. Certain harbour boards occasionally and the association has submitted that a bal­ desire to give a right of occupation to per­ lot-paper having no gummed edges on the sons for a use not involving the construction sides can be ballooned and the contents read. of works, for example, the grazing of cattle The Bill provides for the form of ballot­ pending the development of the lands or, in paper to have gummed edges on all sides, the case of tidal water, for the hiring of and this will effectivelv conceal the name of sailing boats. The Bill provides that a har­ the person or persons ·for whom the member bour board may grant a licence or permit has voted and so ensure the secrecy of a bal­ for the use and occupation of its lands for lot-paper. any purpose. The association has also submitted that the The next provision in the Bill relates to form of ballot-paper should clearly show offensive or dangerous goods unloaded from that the signature of the voter is required on a vessel or awaiting shipment. The chair­ the bottom of the declaratory attachment to man of a harbour board is empowered under Harbours Act [5 DECEMBER 1978] Amendment Bill 3175 the present Act, upon receipt of a certificate reclamation proposal in a local newspaper from an authorised person certifying that and in the Government Gazette once in each goods unloaded from a vessel or awaiting week for four consecutive weeks. The Local shipment are in an offensive or dangerous Government Association has submitted that condition, to serve a notice on the owner, advertising a reclamation proposal for four consignor or consignee of the goods to consecutive weeks is unnecessary and costly, remove the goods within 24 hours from the and the Bill provides for one advertisement time of the service of the notice. The in the local newspaper and Government Harbour Boards' Association has submitted Gazette. This is considered to be quite that the period of 24 hours might be too sufficient public notice of a reclamation long in certain circumstances, and the Bill proposal. repeals the 24-hour requirement and pro­ vides for the period to be specified in the Mr. Burns: Why do they say four weeks' notice. The period to be specified in the advertising is too costly, when they are getting notice can then be related to the actual great areas of land pumped out of the sea circumstances of the case. The association for nothing? has also requested that the Act be widened to allow an officer of the harbour board to Mr. HODGES: The cost of advertising is give such a notice to meet the case where very high and, in many instances, the land the chairman might be absent or otherwise involved in reclamation does not affect many unavailable to issue the notice, and the Bill people at all. empowers the secretary of the harbour board to issue the notice as an alternative to The present Act authorises the making the chairman of the board. of regulations setting out the procedures to be carried out by applicants and objectors The next provision in the Bill relates to in the reclamation of land from below high­ the removal of vessels that are stranded or water mark. The Act allows for regulations abandoned in a harbour or are a danger to to be made prescribing fees to be paid by navigation. A harbour board is empowered objectors, but does not allow for regulations under the Act to give notice in writing to to be made prescribing fees to be paid by the owner to remove within a time fixed by applicants. As the processing of applications the board a vessel that is stranded or aban­ involve a considerable amount of work by doned in its harbour or is a danger to naviga­ the Department of Harbours and Marine tion. The Bill clarifies the powers of a harbour and other interested departments, the Bill board to remove and sell the vessel where the provides for regulations to be made prescrib­ owner of the vessel is known and he fails to ing fees to be paid by applicants for reclama­ comply with a notice by the harbour board tions. to remove the vessel, and also in the case where the owner of the vessel is not known. The Bill also allows a harbour board to The Bill provides for the harbour board, make by-laws to control parking of vehicles before the sale of the vessel takes place, to on its lands or premises along the lines of a give notice of the proposed sale personally similar by-law-making power given to hospital to the owner of the vessel, or if that is not boards under the Hospitals Act. The by-laws practicable, or in the case where the owner to be made by a harbour board may provide cannot be ascertained, to give notice of the that the owner of a vehicle shall be liable proposed sale by way of public advertisement for an offence for parking the vehicle on in a local newspaper. The sale must not pro­ harbour board land or premises and for that ceed until at least one month after the date purpose the by-laws may define who shall of the giving of the notice. · be taken to be the owner of the vehicle. The by-laws may prescribe the proof necessary The Bill provides that the proceeds of the to establish the owner's identity and provide sale be applied to payment of expenses for the recovery of a penalty for an offence incurred by the harbour board in the removal against the by-laws from the owner of the and sale of the vessel and in payment of all vehicle as well as from the person in charge harbour dues and other charges due to the harbour board in respect of such vessel. The of the vehicle at the material time. balance of the proceeds is then paid to the The next provisions in the Bill deal with owner or his agent. If no owner or agent the making of by-laws by the Harbours can be ascertained, the proceeds are paid Corporation and harbour boards. The Bill into the harbour fund of the harbour board spells out more clearly the rights of public and become the property of the harbour inspection of proposed by-laws, including the board. The Bill also provides that at any purchase of copies of the by-laws and the time before the harbour board sells the procedure to be followed in respect of objec­ vessel, the owner may obtain possession tions to by-laws. The Bill also empowers thereof, subject to payment of any removal the Governor in Council to amend by-laws or other expenses or dues incurred by or having regard to any objections received and payable to the board. the representations of the Harbours Corpora­ The Bill contains two provisions relating tion or the harbour board in respect of such to the reclamation of land from below high­ objections. The provisions in the Bill are wat€r mark. Applicants for the reclamation identical with the local authority by-law­ of land from below high-water mark are making procedure under the Local Govern­ required by the present law to advertise the ment Act. 3176 Harbours Act [5 DECEMBER 1978] Amendment Bill

The next provision in the Bill relates to the concession at the time were that fruit the authority of a harbour board to obtain and vegetables were subject to very low advances by way of a bank overdraft. The market returns, with the cost of the harbour present Act provides that a harbour board dues sometimes amounting to 25 per cent may, for temporary accommodation, obtain of the value of the fruit. This was con­ advances from any bank by way of overdraft sidered to be too much of a burden upon in respect of the harbour fund. However, the grower. experience has shown that overdraft finance At present, little or no fruit or vegetables may be required to cover operating require­ are exported from Queensland ports, the ments over quite lengthy periods and that transport of these commodities being mostly advances obtained with the intention of early by rail, road and air. The reasons for the repayment may, owing to budgetary expecta­ present concession are no longer valid and tions not being achieved, remain outstanding a probable harbour due would represent only for more than a temporary period. about .3 per cent of the value of the. fruit The Bill allows a harbour board on its compared with 25 per cent in 1895. It is own initiative to obtain a bank overdraft for therefore considered desirable to remove the a period not exceeding 12 months in respect outdated provision from the legislation so as of its harbour fund and also allows a bank to follow the principle that each commodity overdraft in excess of 12 months for such should make an equitable contribution to­ amount and for such period or extended wards meeting port costs. Accordingly, the period as the Minister may approve. As Bill repeals the section of the Act which is the position under the existing law, the exempts the export of green fruit or vege­ Bill provides that any overdraft must not tables from the payment of harbour dues. exceed the amount of any income of the The Bill also contains a provision relating harbour board, exclusive of loans, for the to the construction by a harbour board of year last past or such less amount as may additions to, or extensions of, port facilities be fixed by the Governor in Coundl. for loading sugar in bulk. The Act pre­ The next provision in the Bill relates scribes the procedure and arrangements to be to requirements for banking of moneys by made between the Sugar Board and a har­ a harbour board, the requirements for signing bour board for the p·rovision of facilities for of cheques, and the keeping by a harbour loading sugar in bulk in the sugar ports. board of an advanCe bank account in respect Prior to the amending Act of 1964, a of certain fixed or recurring payments, such harbour board was empowered to borrow as salaries and wages and interest and money for the provision of the facilities, with redemption payments on loans. the Sugar Board •being responsible for pay­ The Harbour Boards' Association has sub­ ment of the interest and redemption pay­ mitted that the requirements for the signing ments on the loans raised by the harbour of cheques as set out in the Act, which are board. The 1964 amending Act provided for that the cheques must be signed by the the making of agreements bet•ween the Sugar presiding chairman of the harbour board Board and a harbour board whereby the cost and countersigned by the secretary, are not of additions or extensions to sugar export sufficiently flexible. Regulations made under facilities would be met directly from the the Local Government Act provide that, proceeds of the sale of raw sugar, and in after vouchers have been passed for payment doing so implied that loans could not there­ by a local authority, cheques may be signed after be raised by a harbour board for these by one or more members of the local purposes. authority or by two authorised officers of When such provision was inserted, it would the local authority. These types of day-to­ have been envisaged that all major capital day financial requirements are controlled, in works for exporting sugar had been com­ so far as local authorities are concerned, by pleted and that any additions and extensions lengthy regulations made under the Local to the facilities would be of a relatively Government Act, and the Bill follows that minor nature. The current expansion pro­ procedure by repealing the existing provisions gramme for sugar port storage and loading and substituting a regulation-making power facilities cannot reasonably be funded to allow regulations to be made dealing with directly out of current sugar proceeds and these matters. Regulations will then be made borrowings by a harbour board for this pur­ along the lines of the Local Government pose are again necessary. The Bill makes it Regulations. clear that there is to be no prohibition against The next provision in the Bill relates to a harbour board raising loans for additions harbour dues payable on green fruit or and extensions to existing facilities. vegetables. The Act provides that no harbour The final provisions in the Bill formalise dues, other than storage charges, shall be the continuance and keeping at the Treasury payable upon green fruit or vegetables of the Harbours Corporation Fund. This exported from a harbour. The Queensland fund consists of the income and expenditure Harbour Boards' Association has requested of the Harbours Corporation of Queensland, that this section be repealed. The particular and the Bill sets out the moneys to be paid provision became law in 1895 and was enacted into and out of the fund. to benefit fruit growers in the Cairns district and southern Queensland. The reasons for I commend the Bill to the Committee. Harbours Act [5 DECEMBER 1978] Amendment Bill 3177

Mr. JONES (Cairns) (12.33 p.m.): In intro­ correct. No doubt this measure v.rill elim­ ducing this Bill which amends about 16 or 17 inate the discrepancies that could arise. There sections of the Harbours Act 1955-1976, the is always a little doubt and, as long as Minister pointed out that most of the amend­ these matters are cleaned up, I do not think ments are being made at the behest of the we will have any worries or would want to Queensland Harbour Boards Association or debate the matter at this stage of the Bill. the Local Government Association. In the circumstances, the Opposition should not find An Opposition Member interjected. very much wrong with the basic require­ ments. The Minister also said that the Mr. JONES: I do not suppose that any­ amendments are necessary and desirable to body would believe in the rigging of ballots. make the Act more effective. I cannot let this occasion pass without The main amendments in the Bill relate saying that we ought to revert to the old to the fund-raising and borrowing provisions system of having harbour board representa­ covering extensions to harbour works for tives elected by popular franchise instead of loading sugar in bulk at sugar ports. Power selected by aldermen or councillors. That to borrow money for the extension of these would produce a more fair and equitable facilities is being transferred from the Sugar representation, and it would be a better Board back to the harbour boards. The means of selection than the present method. Opposition has no quarrel with borrowings bv the harbour boards to raise funds for I am not quite clear on the part of the Bill dealing with lands designated as har­ additions to or extensions of existing facili­ bour lands or industrial lands. Were they ties for loading of bulk sugar at sugar ports. always designated by the board? Will I am sure that this provision will be wel­ comed by harbour boards in our sugar­ the Bill ensure that lands under the producing State. With the prospect of con­ trusteeship of a harbour board can be desig­ tinuing expansion in the sugar industry, the nated by, and used as required by, the board, measure is commendable. Apparently there without further involvement of the Lands will be no restriction on harbour boards Department as the custodian of Crown raising loans to extend bulk-sugar facilities. lands? Does this grant autonomy to the boards in the designation and use of all The proposal to extend the definition of those lands, and in all manner of land use harbour works to include small craft facil­ under the board's care and custody, for ities is obviously a sign of the times fol­ want of a better word? wm th:is allow the lowing the increase in the use of small subleasing of land? Will it mean that the craft. The use of these facilities and boat board, as an autonomous body, can, by harbours has had an impetus not only in licence or permit, grant occupancy of those this State but right throughout Australia lands to anybody for any purpose other and the rest of the world. The needs have than maritime purposes? I am qualifying become apparent and the authorities to that statement, because in his speech the oversee these facilities are, naturally, the Minister particularly mentioned cattle­ harbour boards and, where harbour boards grazing. When we sat here till the early hours do not exist, the local authorities. That of the morning debating the Queensland proposal will put the definition into its International Tourist Centre Agreement Bill, correct perspective. cattle-grazing seemed to be a pertinent feature, and I wonder whether the relevant We were all candidates for election before provisions in this Act are now being arriving in this place, and our ears are amended to allow further development. always pricked and alert concerning elect­ oral procedures. It is rather amusing that Mr. Hodges: The Act previously related we need specific legislation to provide for only to works. the gwnming of the four edge.; of the ballot­ paper whereas, under the previous legisla­ Mr. JONES: The Act relates only to works tion, only two edges had to ,be gummed. at the moment? Given a little leeway, all scrutineers have blown the ballot-papers apart to see the Mr. Hodges: Yes. order of the names. This is done out of abject curiosity by candidates and scrutin­ Mr. JONES: And now it will be extended eers. As I said, it seems incredible that this to lands and the usage of lands? legislation has to be amended in this manner, but I suppose that it is necessary. Mr. Hodges: Yes. The proposal that the voter's signature be placed on a detached or perforated piece Mr. JONES: As designated by the harbour of paper is merely to provide certification board? that the person designated as the voter has in fact been the voter. It assures that the Mr. Hodges: Yes. signature appended is the correct one. I suppose that anybody could type a name on Mr. JONES: The removal of derelict boats the bottom of a sheet but, with two local and wrecks, mainly sunken hulks and aban­ authorities voting for a harbour board rep­ doned vessels, has always been a problem for resentive, I suppose it is just as well to be harbour boards. Recently we have had a 3178 Harbours Act (5 DECEMBER 1978] Amendment Bill problem with Taiwanese junks being hauled revenue from people who park on harbour in to harbours and allowed to become dere­ board land. The provision which allows the lict, even if thev are not a danger to navi­ harbour board, through its own initiatives, to gation. I realise that giving notice to the obtain bank overdrafts or advances to cover owner of a derelict hulk is sometimes difficult, operating requirements when its budget falls even when the owner is known, and in my due seems logical and practical. experience the owners of these boats are The other provision is long overdue. For either bankrupt or have shot through. In example, there was the ridiculous spectacle most cases, I do not think they are in places of the chairman of the Cairns Harbour where they would receive Queensland news­ Board driving from Mareeba to Cairns to papers. Perhaps advertisements should be sign cheques. It is pleasing to see that the placed in Chinese newspapers. amendment provides for alternative arrange­ The sale of these vessels always seems to ments. I think that the member for Port create problems. I suppose the requirement Curtis could probably elaborate on the diffi­ that a month's notice be given is necessary. culties that people signing cheques can get These boats are generally sold for a pepper­ into if they have sticky fingers. Even the corn, and in the past when the State has sold Local Government Act is not perfect in that vessels, particularly Chinese junks, it has regard. usually ended up on the wrong side of the Mr. Prest interjected. ledger. I realise that the repatriation of crews is not the responsibility of harbour Mr. JONES: The member for Port Curtis boards, but the acceptance of responsibility says that we should not be modelling this for the disposal of a vessel would probably provision on the Local Government Act. As be a liability. I do not think there would he has had some personal experience with be very much left over after the board that Act, perhaps the Minister could take deducted from the proceeds of sale the heed of what he says. cost of advertisements, the payment of dues The other provisions relating to dangerous and removal expenses. and offensive goods, and fruit and vegetables, I think the best way to get rid of these are of a machinery nature. vessels is to do what was done in Cairns, We in the Opposition have no particular when the red steer was put through one of quarrel with the amendments brought for­ the junks. Such vessels would be a burden ward. We will support the first reading of to the boards and they would probably end the Bill. up having to write them off. I suppose somebody has to accept the responsibility for Mr. WRIGHT (Rockhampton) (12.46 p.m.): these vessels, and the boards are probably In introducing the legislation, the Minister the most competent to clear up the problem spoke at some length, as did the Opposition efficiently. We cannot find any reason to spokesman, about the role of ha:bour boards oppoQe that provision, but I predict that it in raising funds and the total subject of loans. will cause some problems. In this debate I wish to pursue a matter that The reclamation of land is, of course, pertains to Port Alma; and, because of the important in many coastal areas, particularly difficulties that Port Alma is facing, I am in my own. Many people can be affected by sure that most people would expect me to reclamation. The proposal to replace the do so. requirement of an advertisement in each of I say at the outset that this is a non­ four consecutive weeks with a single adver­ political issue. It is vital to the whole of tisement does not seem right to me. By Central Queensland. At this point of time way of interjection, the honourable member it has the complete support of the Civic for Lytton raised the situation at Noosa Independent team, led by Alderman R. V. J. Heads, where people are making millions out Pilbeam, and the aldennen of A.L.P. per­ of reclamation. It is said that reclamation suasion. It also has the support of A.L.P. is costly, but I do not think that that is State parliamentarians, in.c~udi~g my~elf. The sufficient reason to advertise the proposal only proof that it is a non-poht1cal Issue ~s .clearly only once rather than for four consecutive shown and demonstrated by the w1llmgness weeks so that everybody knows what is going of Mayor Pilbeam to keep Labor members, on. It may be inconvenient to advertise, but both aldennen and State members of Par­ it is doubtful that it is unnecessary. It may liament, fully informed. Much of the info:­ even be costly to advertise, but I do not think mation that I intend to present to tl1IS on balance that that cost can be equated with Chamber now has in fact come from Alder­ the total cost of reclamation. man Pilbeam and from the Labor leader, The decision to enable harbour boards to Alderman Col Brown. enact by-laws to control parking on their I state verv emphatically that I do not land is a machinery measure, and will no enter this debate to try to score politically doubt be welcomed by the boards. There off the Minister or the Government. I say have always been problems with parking on again very clearly that I am aware of the harbour board land. We solved the prob­ financial assistance that has been given to lem in Cairns simply through the local Port Alma over a long period. I am also authority's accepting the responsibility and aware of the deep personal concern of the installing parking meters, thus gaining some Minister. I know that many people have been Harbours Act [5 DECEMBER 1978] Amendment Bill 3179 in touch with him about this issue, and that $3,157,590, and I suggest to the Committee it is one that is exercising his mind and is that the Government has no alternative to being considered by officers of his department trying to resuscitate Port Alma once again. at this time. It is not a lost cause, as many people The history of Port Alma, Mr. Hewitt, is believe, and I think honourable members not an inspiring one in terms of finance. will agree if they look at the statistics that Recently in this Chamber I asked questions are available. It can be done; Port Alrna about the financial position of Port Alma can be made viable. In 1977-78, the harbour over the last 10 years. Members who board earned $355,000, which resulted in a noticed those questions would have seen that working profit of $49,150. So the potential in only three of the last 10 years have profits is there, but the problems are still enormous. been made in actual port operations. During the last 10 years the Rockhampton City Regardless of the problems-and let us Council has made massive contributions to look quickly at oome of them, Mr. Hewitt­ the harbour board to assist it. and regardless of the fact that cargo decreased 20 per cent in 1977-78, that the I made a quick calculation in this matter, Commonwealth Government first did away and I concluded that during the last 10 years with the A.N.L. weekly services, then the fort­ the Rockhampton City Council has paid in nightly senrices, till there were no services, excess of $1,000,000 in an endeavour to assist. and that a tremendous amount of the meat That assistance has been matched or exceeded produced in Central Queensland has been bv the State Government, for in the same going by rail to Brisbane, the port still had period cash advances have totalled $203,000, a working profit of almost $50,000. The and in 1978-79 there will be a further com­ difficulty is that, because of the huge debts mitment of $80,000, which will match the and interest and redemption payments, Port ex gratia payment by the Rockhampton City Alma is still not able to come out on top Council. There has been restraint on the part and show an overall surplus. As I said earlier, of the Government in that it has refrained interest and redemption payments in 1977 from charging interest on Treasury loans and 1978 amounted to $372,000. The poten­ totalling $632,382. A moratorium approach tial is there, and I believe that it must be has been adopted to the repayment of loans looked at very carefully and that some in terms of money borrowed from the Go·:­ support ought to be given. ernment. Back in 1973 there \\as a Treasury loan In 1977-78, 11000 tonnes of salt went grant to cover a deficit of $64,700 at that over Port Alma. It is estimated that in point. So I state again emphatically that I 1978-79 that will increase to a massive have no argument, and I do not think there 140 000 tonnes, and already 40 000 tonnes is an argument, about the State Government's has been loaded. Already, almost four times endeavour to assist. I wish to say to the the quantity of salt that went over the port Minister that this assistance has been deeply in 1977-78 has gone over this year, and appreciated, and I am urging a continuation I.C.l. says emphatically that those tonnages of that attitude. will be maintained. For the information of members, I present There is also a significant increase in the the current situation. At 30 June 1978, the use of Port Alma as an explosives port, and net loan indebtedness of the Rockhampton honourable members who travel in Central Harbour Board was $5,150,452.55. One can Queensland will know that Dupont is expand­ add to that the amount of $157,234.50 in the ing the arsenal that it has established sinking fund. Interest and redemption pay­ at Bajool. Probably honourable members ments on loans total $372,225.02 in 1977-78, also realise that, in the case of explosives, and it has been estimated that in 1978-79 cargo over the port is mainly by way of they will rise to a massive $584,847. The imports. Dupont has set up a treatment reason is that the old loans are to be re­ works at Bajool to meet the explosives negotiated and that, whereas originally the needs of the coal-mining areas. It is estima­ interest rate was 5 per cent or 5.2 per cent, ted bv the harbour board and the citv the interest rate will be 7 to 10 per cent. I councii that dues on explosives will amount point out that $70,000 has to be paid by the to between $80,000 and $100,000 in 1978-79, end of December and that the coffers are and that will be of substantial benefit to the bare, so the situation is serious and the port. Rockhampton Harbour Board is facing bank­ Port Alma IS ideally situated as an ruptcy. explosives port. It used to be criticised for Now, it is not a problem only for the its isolation, but in this instance isolation is Rockhampton Harbour Board; the Govern­ an advantage. The infrastructure is there ment is deeply involved. If the board does already. Dupont is permanent, and it is go bankrupt, the Government and the people making continuing investment and employ­ of this State, too, will lose heavily, because ing many people. the State Government guarantees the repay­ Let me quickly move on to meat, Mr. ment of all harbour board borrowings. If Hewitt. One finds that the quantity exported one looks also at the debts owed specifically last year was three times higher than the to the Crown-and this is because of invest­ quantity exported t\vo years ago. In 1976-77, ments by the S.G.I.O. and the Public Curator 6 873 tonnes of frozen meat was exported; Office-one sees that they amount to in 1977-78, exports increased to 9 401 tonnes. 3180 Harbours Act [5 DECEMBER 1978] Amendment Bill

There is an ongoing increase in exports to and specifically to the ratepayers of Rock­ places such as Egypt and Russia-not in hampton. I support it, and I intend to container form, but in cartoned frozen beef. support Mayor Pilbeam and Alderman Col I know that the orders are small, but thev Brown on this issue. If the port dies, then will continue to increase, as will the bulk the Government has to carry the debt, any­ tallow trade. how. So why not share the burden? Why not allow the city council to take over part When looking at the long-term potential of the debt, and take over the total port? and long-term future, one has to consider only what is happening with the Iwasaki The suggestion is that the Rockhampton project. It is known in this Assembly that City Council be given a clean-slate deal. I supported the Iwasaki scheme in principle The port has the potential; we believe it can but opposed it because of the terms of th~ make a profit. It proved that last year by agreement. Let us take it as a fact that it making almost $50,000 profit. The whole ,is something that will come to Central deal needs to be renegotiated. I ask the Queensland. If it develops into the tremend­ Minister to use whatever power he has within ous tourist centre that it is said it will be Cabinet and with the other powers that be then Port Alma will be the ideal port fo; to permit this deal to be renegotiated and so allow the port to be taken over by the u~e by those working in close co-operation With that development. It is a deep-water Rockhampton City Council to ensure that it port and it does not need redredging, so it has a future. can add to the benefits of the tourist potential [Sitting suspended from 1 to 2.15 p.m.] of Central Queensland. Hon. A. M. HODGES (Gympie-Minister I.C.I. has said that its conveyor-belt svstem for Maritime Services and Tourism) (2.15 for salt would be ideal for the handling of p.m.), in reply: By way of interjection, coal. If the shale-oil deposits in Central I answered a query raised by the honourable Qu~nsland, ~ecame commercial propositions, member for Cairns concerning land vested agam we will have further industry and in or otherwise held by port authorities. increased port use. So I suggest to the I will now clarify the matter. The Bill con­ Minister that the port must not be allowed tains provisions relating to lands held by to die. harbour boards. The expression "land vested There is an !lnsw~r and a very simple one, in or otherwise held" has been interpreted as even though It will cost the Government not including reserves of Crown land under money. Of course, when it comes to the the control of a harbour board under the Government, all answers cost money. The Land Act. The Bill defines that term more answer is for the State Government to take clearly. Previously, Crown reserves were not over at least half the debts. At present the covered by the designation provisions; they debts amount to almost $5,000,000. If the now will be so covered. The leasing of State Government would forgo the money designated lands held by a harbour board the harbour board owes it by way of the in reserve still must receive the approval of State Government Insurance Office and the the Minister for Lands. Public Curator Office, it would leave an Mr. Burns: Will town planning authorities indebtedness that could be serviced by the be involved when you lease them? Rockhampton City Council. As the Minister well knows, the suggestion is that the Rock­ Mr. HODGES: No. hampton City Council should take over Port Alma. It is already meeting about $150,000 The honourable member for Rockhampton a year. I know that by way of original referred to Port Alma. I fully appreciate agreement through legislation it was supposed the situation and agree with the sentiments to meet only $80,000 a year, but because of expressed by him. Something should be done, the ex gratia payments it is making, the but to do it it will require amendments to the amount at the moment is about $150,000 Act. I have discussed the matter with mem­ a y~r. That would be roughly the amount bers of the Rockhampton Harbour Board and of mterest and redemption payments on the mayor of Rockhampton. It is now a half of the debts remaining. In terms of matter of negotiation with the Treasurer to advantage to Central Queensland and Rock­ try to achieve what the mayor has suggested hampton, already there are 30 registered should be done regarding the financing of permanent waterside workers and 60 casuals. Port Alma. As I told the mayor, I am That means a lot of money in terms of wages quite prepared to support him in trying to and expenditure in the area. It is estimated do what he is setting out to achieve. that 200 persons are somehow associated with Other points raised by members will be that port in terms of employment. replied to at the second-reading stage. One also notes that the harbour board has Motion (Mr. Hodges) agreed to. 45,000 acres of reserve land in and around Resolution reported. Port Alma. There is land at Thompson's Point; there is also land near Fields' meat­ works on the Fitzroy River. I am sure that Fmsr READING this is the sort of proposition that could be Bill presented and, on motion of Mr. sold to the people of Central Queensland, Hodges, read a first time. Industry and Commerce (5 DECEMBER 1978] Training Bill 3181

INDUSTRY AND COMMERCE The needs of industry and commerce will TRAINING BILL be surveyed, and training programmes arranged in certain callings and occupations. INITIATION IN COMMITTEE A manpower planning section will have (Mr. Gunn, Somerset, in the chair) very important functions. It will conduct surveys and assess the future needs of industry Hon. F. A. CAMPBELL (Aspley-Minis­ and commerce in relation to manpower and ter for Labour Relations) (2.19 p.m.): I skills. move- The Bill also proposes greater flexibility "That a Bill be introduced to consolidate in the periods of indenture, technical train­ and amend the law relating to apprentices, ing and other areas relating to apprentices to make provision for the industrial and and apprenti~eship. Regional advisory com­ commercial training of other persons and mittees will deal with some matters now for incidental and other purposes." dealt with by other committees. The Bill also alters the arrangement regarding This is the most far-reaching and important rewards for the proficiency of apprentices industrial legislation to be considered by and gives legal recognition to pre-apprentice­ the Assembly for many years. Its aim is ship and pre-vocational training. to replace the Apprenticeship Executive with a commission to be known as the Industry Another important provision provides for and Commerce Training Commission. training of adults by contract in skilled callings. The commission will have broader functions The Industrial Conciliation and Arbitra­ than the former executive and will be able, tion Commission will be given authority to with Cabinet approval, to implement- deal with the supply of tools and the allow­ ances to be paid to apprentices in addition pre-vocational and pre-apprenticeship train­ to its existing authority to determine other ing; wages. * adult training and retraining; I will now deal in some detail with sections * manpower planning; of the Bill. The Industry and Commerce '' training in occupations other than appren­ Training Commission will consist of not ticeship trades; and more than 14 members. The commissioner training of technicians. and the Director of Technical Education will be ex officio members and there will The legislation incorporates many of the be six representatives each from employers recommendations of the expert commission and employees, nominated by the Minister. of inquiry into apprenticeship established in Appointed members will hold office for 1976. three years. Industry and commerce advisory commit­ Honourable members will recall the exhaus­ tees will be constituted for industries, callings tive and e>:.pert inquiry during which former or groups of callings, occupations or groups Industrial Commissioner, V. J. Anderson, of employees as are determined by the Min­ received 102 submissions, visited many ister on the recommendation of the com­ centres and travelled interstate. Mr. Ander­ mission. The committee will comprise the son submitted a most painstaking report deputy commissioner and the Director of and its administrative and financial practic­ Technical Education will nominate an ex abilities were then examined by an inter­ departmental committee. The general text officio member. of that committee's report was that imple­ I must stress, as is obvious, the close mentation was administratively practicable. liaison between the Department of Educa­ The inter-departmental committee report tion and the Department of Labour Rela­ said that many recommendations could be tions, which is basic to the success of this implemented progressively as finance measure. became available. Honourable members The functions of an industry and com­ will appreciate this when I tell them an merce advisory committee include the sur­ Education Department survey estimated the veying and making of recommendations to cost over five years for such things as halls the commission concerning the needs of of residence, amenities, site acquisition, industry, apprentices, other employees and administration and technical and further employers in relation to the Act. It will education courses at over $172,000,000. supervise the allotment of apprentices, report and recommend on the adequacy of existing The legislation has involved constant dis­ and proposed training programmes and the cussions with the Department of Education relevance of training and the quality of and interested parties and I propose not to trained personnel. It will also make recom­ proceed Y.ith the second reading until Par­ liament resumes in 1979 to enable man­ mendations as to the supervision and facil­ agements and unions to study the proposals ities provided by employers to ensure that and make suggestions to me. I believe it is apprentices and other trainees gain profi­ important that this be a co-operative effort ciency in their callings or occupations. as what we are doing will set the pattern for Another important responsibility which orderly industrial and commercial training is in keeping with the spirit of this forward­ in Queensland for many years. looking legislation, is that the committees 70600-106 3182 Industry and Commerce (5 DECEMBER 1978] Training Bill will advise the Minister through the com­ advisory committee, may recommend a full­ miSSIOn concerning the training facilities time educational and training course at any that should be provided. college or colleges of technical and further education as an alternative to apprenticeship The third arm of the commJssJon is the training or a full-time pre-vocational course regional advisory committee. The regional for an unskilled, semi-skilled or skilled advisory committee will consist of a Public occupation. Service officer as chairman, an ex officio member who will be the principal of a The commission, once again after consulta­ college of technical and further education, tion, may determine the number of persons and at least four other members. These to be trained as adult trainees in an appren­ regional committees will, as I said earlier, ticeship calling or a portion thereof other have power to deal with some matters than under an indenture of apprenticeship, presently dealt with by other committees. and the number of adult trainees that an I visualise their being important sounding employer may employ. boards for the commission, particularly on manpower and industry requirements of a I mentioned in my introductory remarks given region. that the commission will broaden the appren­ ticeship executive functions to cover the I should now like to turn to manpower training of technicians. A technician, as planning-to me a vital element of this envisaged by the Bill, is not necessarily Bill. The functions of the manpower a super tradesman; rather he is a person planning branch will be to advise the com­ who is sufficiently qualified to interpret the mission through the commissioner on the requirements of the professional workers, present and anticipated needs of industry and for example, civil engineers, etc., for the of the State. This is a heavy responsibility bene:fit of the tradesman. A certificate in view of the rapid technological changes will 'be issued recognising qualifications taking place and the degree of specialisation achieved. 'which is now becoming obvious. I might The Bill also covers training establishments quote as an example the fact that we have and requires persons conducting or managing recently been requested to introduce six new them to register their premises. caJ,Jings in engineering alone. Callings for training in engine reconditioning, marine The industry and commerce advisory com­ mechanics and smaLl-engine mechanics are mittees and regional advisory committees instances of recent innovations. will co-operate with registered training establishments and will approve courses of The building industry, too, is becoming instruction which satisfy them. After the heavily specialised and the problems and course is approved, the comm1sswn may needs of subcontractors in any modern system circulate details of it to other similar training of apprenticeship are well known. Because establishments. Graduates from these of these problems arising from specialisation courses will receive a certificate. in industry, there is an urgent need to provide training specifically designed for this purpose. The reason for the close attention that these training establishments will receive is, This Bill makes provision for indenturing of course, to ensure that the courses set an apprentice to a portion of an apprentice­ down do, in fact, yield the qualifications and ship caLling with, naturally, a lesser period expertise that is held out for them. Honour­ of indenture than would be the case for the able members would know that there have full calling. In this way, an apprentice in been instances of courses being advertised the motor mechanics area could be inden­ which offer virtually immediate expertise. tured to any one portion of the whole It will be clear to honourable members from calling, for example, brake mechanic, trans­ what I have said that the Government is directing its attention to the whole question mission mechanic, etc. This same principle of youth employment and anticipation of may be applied to any caLling, with the needs. A series of decisions will be made approval of the relevant committees. progressively which will help to cushion the Pre-apprenticeship and pre-vocational introduction of technology by testing industry 'COurses of training have exercised the minds requirements and, where possible, create of Labour Relations and Education Depart­ courses ahead of need. In other words, we ment officers for some time. The commission are attempting to evolve a system which will will continue to consult with officers of allow us to live in the age of technological technical and further education and the revolution with as few casualties as possible. industry and commerce advisory committee It is possible, of course, that eventually concerned on the introduction of pre­ the apprenticeship system in particular could apprenticeship courses for an apprentice give way to virtually full-time training in calling and pre-vocational courses for a colleges of technical and further education, specified group of apprentice callings. with some on job release. Successful stu­ I must stress that, notwithstanding this Bill, dents could undergo a short training period in the commission at any time, and after con­ the work-force before becoming first-class sultation with T.A.F.E. and the industry tradesmen. Industry and Commerce (5 DECEMBER 1978] Training Bill 3183

I canvass these possibilities, and that is all are looking at flexibility in the sense of reduc­ they are, because of the avenues for think­ ing the period of indenture, probably we ing and planning that this legislation opens should look at extending the period of inden­ up. Current thinking now covers three ture in certain circumstances. It would seem stages- that that is probably one of the grey areas Now-establish a training commission, that the Minister mentioned. Perhaps the with a manpower section to forecast people who have discussed this matter at industry's needs and plan orderly expan­ some length have agreed in general that we sion. should look at the possibility of extending * Five to 15 years-pre-vocational training the period of indenture in certain circum­ in a family of trades before pre-appren­ stances. I should like some further elabora­ ticeship training in a selected trade tion on that point. immediately before indenture. This would The introduction of pre-apprenticeship mark the gradual movement away from and pre-vocational training is, to my mind, the indenture system. a very progressive move. If, as the Minister * 15 years plus-all trade training in colleges. said, legal recognition of this matter is neces­ All of these things may not come about, but sary, obviously that legal recognition should the point I am endeavouring to make is that be given. industrial training and the role and obliga­ The Bill also refers to the training of tion of the employer will be kept constantly adults. I have a personal opinion about this under review by this Government. matter, and it is that great care should be taken with the placement of adults in train­ Mr. YEWDALE (Rockhampton North) ing courses, particularly when young persons (2.33 p.m.): I believe that the legislation as are available. Young people have to be outlined by the Minister for Labour Rela­ moved into trades in order to provide some tions in his introductory remarks has far­ continuity of skilled tradesmen. While I do reaching possibilities, and, to my knowledge, not totally object to adult training-and I is in general terms welcomed by most sec­ know that there has been some controversy tions of industry. I base that statement on surrounding this question from time to time­ the fact that over a period the unions and it would seem that at this time in Queensland employers have made a number of recom­ and in Australia we certainlv should be mendations which have resulted in the legis­ looking primarily at putting young people in lation now before the Committee. To a employment. If people are needed for large extent, of course, the proposed legisla­ apprenticeship in the trade area, surely we tion emanates from the report of a com­ should be looking at training young people mission of inquiry conducted by Commis­ rather than adults. saner Anderson. It was a quite extensive inquiry, with numerous interviews conducted The need for liaison between the Labour and meetings held right up the coast and Relations Department and the Education throughout country areas. Department has been stressed. Again I believe that any responsible Government, in I believe it is somewhat regrettable that the all of its activities, should insist on com­ culmination of the objectives as outlined are munication and liaison where it is in the some five or more years away, and I suppose interests of better administration and that that relates to the question of finance obviously better government for the people. and the implementation of many of the pro­ The Minister has suggested that there is a posals that the Minister outlined. It is com­ need for his department and the Education mendable that the Minister has decided to Department to liaise, but surely there should allow the Bill to lie on the table until the be liaison between departments under any first session in 1979 so that interested parties Government that is operating responsibly. can study its ramifications. This is in com­ Probably it would be fair to say that during plete contrast to the Government's usual my years in Parliament there has not been attitude when, in many cases, it has bull­ liaison between the various departments and dozed measures through this Assembly at a there has not appeared to be any attempt very late hour. That we are to be allowed by them to liaise. to look at this measure in the interim is commendable, and I am sure the people I believe that another vital matter for con­ involved will appreciate that courtesy. sideration is the trammg facilities for I believe it is most vital that we have for­ apprentices. I am sure that members of this ward planning to assess the needs of industry Committee who represent provincial and and commerce and, if possible, to forecast country areas have from time to time been as close as possible the expertise needs in confronted by an employer or even a parent the various fields in the future. In the past regarding the block-release training scheme, we have failed in this area of providing for­ which is carried out predominantly in Bris­ ward planning for future needs not only bane. from the point of view of apprentices. We Just to touch very briefly on this scheme­ seem to have failed in a number of areas. it is obvious that there was some trepidation The question of flexibility of the period of about it when it was first introduced. Even indenture was mentioned. I personally the commissioner points out in his report believe that this is a two-way principle. If we that, while he has some doubts about the 3184 Industry and Commerce [5 DECEMBER 1978] Training Bill block-release training scheme, he still believes apprenticeship committee showed an increas­ that there is much more value in it than there ing downturn in the number of apprentices is regret for having introduced it. being indentured. Government departments The point I make about the problem with are not taking their full quotas, and the training facilities concerns young people who Works Department has almost destroyed the hve as far away as Cairns and Mt. Isa. They day-labour force, thus reducing the need for take up trades and later they are brought to apprentices. In the debate on the Estimates the South, usually to Brisbane, to do a of the Minister's department, I referred to seven-week block-training programme. This the apprenticeship report and mentioned ce.rtainly cre<:tes a number of problems. I figures showing the intake of apprentices in w!ll not .go mto detail about the problems. industry generally and in the Government They anse because this training period is service in particular. I do not think there probably the first time that the young male is any argument about the fact that the or female has been away from home. Because Government is only adding to the shortage of of the need to be accommodated here durino tradesmen by allowing the Works Department that training period, they have to live in mixed !O erode the number of tradesmen training ac.commodation or with strange people. Cer­ m. t~e day-labour force in the building, tamly that can cause some traumas. Perhaps pamtmg and plumbing sections. the block-release training scheme could have By starving the public sector of funds as contribute~, to some extent, to the number of part of its very stringent economic policy, cancelled mdentures set out in the Appren­ the Federal Government has very seriously ticeship Committee report. retarded the building industry. I think that Also, I naturally sympathise with manv all honourable members in this Chamber employers who have a limited number of would agree that it is the very life-blood of the economy, and that a buoyant and senior staff ~nd, in some cases, only one or two apprentices, and whose success in their viable building industry would boost the economy by creating more work and employ­ w~o:Je business operation depends on the ing young people in the trades, thus pro­ ab1~1ty of not only their adult staff but also their apprentices. Within a year or so of ducing more tradesmen. commencing training, the apprentices become Continuing high interest rates are inhibit­ somewhat competent and naturally contribute ing development in the home-construction to !he better functioning of their employer's industry. It seems that the convenient side­ busmess. stepping of the Government on the question Block release training has caused a few of interest rates is preventing young couples, problems, and I believe that training facilities no matter how keen they may be, from could well be centralised in coastal areas. getting their own home. Although it would For example, Rockhampton would be an ideal .probably be the only home they would centre in Central Queensland, and Townsville establish in their lives, the home in which could cater for young people from Mt. Isa they would rear a family, they are prevented and Cairns. In many cases they could return from obtaining it. The Government's policy home to their parents at week-ends and on interest rates is adversely affecting the this would mean lower cost to the G~vern­ building industry and, in turn, the intake of ment and much happier apprentices. young people into various trades and other service industries. In concluding his introduction of the Bill th~ Minister made th~ee very important I believe, too, that the Government is pomts that I should like to reiterate. I closing its eyes to the activities of certain concur. i.n the three stages mentioned by land developers. Of course, not all land the Mmister. The training commission is developers are as unscrupulous as those whom an innovation and, I believe, a good one. I have exposed because of their exorbitant charges in developing land for home builders. The fiv~-fift~en ye~r.s pre-vocational and pre­ apprenticeship trammg also seems to tie in As I said the other day in this Chamber, with the overall projected programme. Of it would seem that somewhere along the ~ourse, the. 15 years-plus of trade training line Governments have to accept respon­ m colleges IS a long way ahead, but it would sibility for the manner in which land is seem that the stage will be reached when developed and by whom, and the costs that all training will take place in that way. are imposed on buyers. These days it is taken for granted that all young couples The planning may have to be varied, I who want to buy land on which to build a suggest, because as time passes, and with home have to pay $9,000, $10,000, $11,000 the introduction of new technology and or $12,000 for an allotment. The amount changes in social approaches and standards varies throughout the State, but $9,000 or flexibility will be required. Although I support $10,000 would be a fairly general figure. the planned programme as set out, I suggest that the future needs of the trades and the Mr. Davis: $20,000 at Aspley. need for flexibility must be kept in mind. Having dealt generally with the Minister's Mr. YEWDALE: Of course, that would introduction, I should like now to refer briefly be a select area. Peopie who buy land in that to the regrettable position of youth and area are very affluent and are used to a apprenticeship. The recent report of the high living standard. Not many of the people Industry and Commerce [5 DECEMBER 1978] Training Bill 3185

I would be concerned about would be buy­ again." It is quite obvious that it has not ing an allotment of land in that area. Per­ done that. The situation has deteriorated; sons who can afford to pay $20,000 for an the lights are still not turned on. State allotment on which to build a home are cer­ Governments are more or less powerless to tainly not in the category of being in need, do anything about it because of their inability as are so many young couples who are to obtain finance to provide assistance in finding it almost impossible financially to various areas. I believe that, tongue in own their own home. cheek, they are sitting it out in the hope that there will be something around the The hard-line approach of State and Fed­ corner, that a rainbow will suddenly appear eral Governments continues to retard the and that everything will be O.K. building industry, and industry generally because of the back-up services required. At I refer to the recent tour throughout the same time, it aggravates unemployment. Queensland of the committee led by Mr. With a continuation of the hard-line policy 'Max Hooper, which was mentioned during towards the public sector, much of the private question-time. Its tour of the State was sector will be adversely affected. People nothing more than window-dressing. It often say that Governments of a certain ilk achieved nothing. The feedback that I support either the public or private sector have received from the areas visited by the according to their political philosophies. It committee shows that it received very little would seem to me that Governments of today response. The Government will achieve are hiding their heads in the sand if they nothing by sending a group of members believe that they should retard the public around the State for a couple of weeks to sector, as the public sector creates so much try to assess the unemployment problem activity in the private sector. Many people as it affects young people. If the Govern­ I know in the private sector would dearly ment is not already aware of the situation, love to see greater activity in the public sec­ it is failing miserably in doing its job. Quite tor. clearly, the State and Federal Governments should get together and make a concerted I took the trouble to do a bit of research to effort to overcome the problem. see what other people are thinking in the apprenticeship field. I have here a state­ I refer now to the large number of can­ ment made by a very prominent chairman of cellations of indentures. Probably, the directors of a major company in Brisbane. new scheme outlined by the Minister will He said- help contain the number of cancellations. "Despite high unemployment, we are The report of the Apprenticeship Executive experiencing a 'skilled trades crisis' in shov.·s that there are a number of reasons the metal industries. for cancellations of indentures. The Gov­ ernment should take a close look at the "This has not happened overnight but situation with a view to keeping the number has its roots in social, educational and as low as possible. industrial trends which began during the mid 1950's. The drastic cut-back in The Minister referred to subcontractors. immigration levels and the unprecedented Difficulties arise in this area because of demand for higher tertiary education were poor workmanship done by some subcon­ the principal contributing factors. In the tractors as well as by workmen whom they first instance, qualified and skilled trades­ employ. A number of subcontractors simply men are not entering Australia in sufficient sweat on their employees and tell them that numbers and, in the second, young people they have to put their head down and back­ are opting for a higher education rather side up and go for their life for about eight than trade training to such a degree that or 10 hours a day to get the job done as an oversupply is emerging in many profes­ quickly as possible. That, of course, reacts sional and subprofessional occupations." to the detriment of the home owner. Natur­ ally, the standard of workmanship under It is a very valid point that persons with those circumstances is very poor. I apprec­ higher education are looking to professional iate, of course, that the Minister is not occupations rather than the trades. He con­ directly responsible for the work done by tinued- subcontractors. "The last national census showed that Reference has been made earlier to tenders in Australia there were 80 persons study­ called by the Works Department. It was ing for a Bachelor degree for every 100 suggested that priority should be given to who currently held one. However, for a employers who engage apprentices. I am in trade qualification the number was 16 agreement with that. If the records show only for every 100. The figures speak for that a construction firm engages its full themselves." quota of apprentices, it certainly should be I think they do. We are not attracting people given priority for ·works Department con­ into the trades. tracts. The catchcry of the Federal Government at (Time expired.) the time it took over power from the ·whit­ lam Government was, "Vve will turn the lights Mr. GOLEBY (Redlands) (2.54 p.m.): I on. We will create incentive in the private should imagine that, particularly over the sector. We will get everybody back to work past few months, all honourable members 3186 Industry and Commerce [5 DECEMBER 1978] Training Bill

have received representations from young that we have received many representations people-some accompanied by their parents, along the lines I have been propounding. others on their own-who were seeking Only last week-end at a social function two assistance to gain apprenticeships in the builders complained to me that until the building industry. As the previous speaker Government changed the system they would has said, the buoyancy or non-buoyancy of no longer be able to employ apprentices. the building industry has a tremendous effect They are very strongly opposed to block on our economy. training. Over the years, the lot of the apprentice ,I ask the Minister if there is any reason and his training have been improved. No-one why the type of apprentice-training to be would argue against that claim. However, undergone cannot be determined by the in improving the apprentice's lot, the Gov­ employer. If an employer wishes an appren­ ernment has lost sight of some of the needs tice to go to college one day a week, I of the employer. It is, after all, the employer see no reason why he should not be able to who engages apprentices, so the Govern­ adopt that system. If he wishes his appren­ ment must ensure that the overall scheme tice to undergo block training, block training is a balanced one. It must encourage it should be. After all, the employer employs employers to take on additional apprentices. the lad, pays his wages and trains him. He The present apprenticeship system has takes him through his apprenticeship and many pitfalls. I dare say that members have equips him to follow his trade as a fully received representations from small builders, fledged tradesman. As the employer plays plumbers, bricklayers and other tradesmen such an important role, surely to goodness who claim that they can no longer afford it is only fair to let him have some say to employ apprentices. The rate of pay for on how his staff will be trained. an apprentice in Queensland is the highest I commend the T.A.F.E. vocational train­ in Australia. The block-release training ing system. Many builders and others in scheme, which was introduced some years the building trades have pointed out that ago, is quite acceptable to the large employer many young people seeking apprenticeships of apprenticeship labour, but it is completely are not properly equipped; that they do not unacceptable to small builders and brick­ know what work is all about. They think layers, who would employ one or two they want to take up a certain trade, but apprentices. They claim that when the they are not sure. Vocational training, apprentices leave for seven weeks' block through T.A.F.E., has at least sorted out training their work-force is depleted so this problem. badly that their tendering and contract pro­ grammes are interfered with. They have to I agree with the honourable member for pay pay-roll tax, the 17± per cent holiday Rockhampton North that much more loading, workers' compensation premiums emphasis should be given to lads being able and so on, as well as the apprentices' wages. to leave school after Junior to undertake the Overall, an apprentice's wages are about the six or 12-month pre-vocational training. The same as the base rate for a tradesman. employer has no axe to grind if he takes How can we allow this state of affairs to a young man on as a second-year apprentice continue? I think everyone is well aware after completing a pre-vocational training that, if we do not train apprentices, we course. At least the apprentice has had will have no tradesmen for the future. the basic training and the employer has not had to pay him while he undertook I appreciate that the Minister intends to it. As I said eadier, the first year cost of leave the legislation lie on the table until training an apprentice is virtually money Parliament resumes in the new year so that down the drain. No employer takes on all facets of apprenticeship training, and workmen for the love of it. A joh has to its effects on the apprentice and the employer be done, and unless an employee can show may be studied. some profit to his employer he will not be As I said earlier, many parents have employed. approached me seeking apprenticeships for As I said, the building industry is the their lads. Some of them have said to me, barometer of the economy. 11hrough the "The whole trouble is that wages are too various trades associated with it, it is the high for untrained and unskilled employees." barometer of apprenticeship training and the Builders point out that a skilled tradesman training of our young people. has to be deployed to take the apprentice in hand and teach him his trade. Because of I am very fortunate because, in my elec­ the high rate of pay, it is unprofitable for torate, for a number of years, there has an employer to take on apprentices. In been, and still is, a building boom. But it effect, t,wo men are doing the work of one; has not overcome the problem. The previous one is being trained, but both of them speaker said that once the building industry receive high wages. gets back onto its feet these problems will The honourable member for Rockhampton be solved. I am saying that under the North referred to the committee on unem­ present system there is no chance of solving ployment that has been looking into certain this problem unless we look very realistically matters throughout the State. I am not here at the system under which our employers today to disclose what recommendations have have to take on apprentices. It is far too been made by the committee, but I will say rigid. If we turn the clock back a few years, Industry and Commerce [5 DECEMBER 1978] Training Bill 3187

we will find that the system was far more I suggest that the wages of apprentices acceptable to the employer and we did not be exempted from pay-roll tax. This would have our apprentices complaining. be a major step forward because pay-roll tax Some people believe that a young lad has is an iniquitous tax for which the employer a divine right to obtain an apprenticeship. sees nothing. We have heard all sorts of Other people believe that it is a privilege. reasons why this tax is necessary. I com­ I am one of those who believe that it is a mend the Treasurer for lifting the exemption privilege to be able to obtain an apprentice­ limit substantially over the years, but if we ship and learn a trade. The apprentice expect employers to take on more junior depends on somebody else to teach him. He labour, particularly in the apprenticeship is at somebody else's mercy in this regard, field, it is up to us as a Government to give but he leans on him in all respects. Every the lead and allow exemption from the pay­ assistance should be given to the employer to ment of pay-roll tax on the wages of make it much easier for him to take on apprentices. these young people. I thank the Minister for saying that he would allow the Bill to lie on the table until Let me turn to the subdivision of land after the recess. The Bill is a comprehensive and the building associated with it. There are one and a number of points need to be always people crying in the wilderness that considered fully. If we are going to help subdivisional costs must be reduced. I am industry and the labour market overall, it all in favour of that, provided the people behoves each of us to look very closely at who buy the blocks are prepared to put up this Bill, associate ourselves with those who with the conditions of the land when it was are potential employers of apprentices, take bought. But that is not the case. A person note of their views, and then come back and buys a block of land in an old subdivision. let the Minister know just what our findings If it is on a gravel road, he makes represen­ are. I am sure, as I said earlier, that if we tations to the local council to obtain a sealed want to persuade small employers to take road and then water and sewerage. He on this additional labour, as they did in expects the other members of the community years gone by, we have to meet their demands who have paid for the infrastructure for somewhere along the line. those amenities to provide them free of charge. Mr. V AUGHAN (Nudgee) (3.5 p.m.): I It is only fair and reasonable-and local am very pleased to rise to speak in this authorities have taken this stand throughout debate. I listened to the Minister's remarks the State-that the user pays. As the infra­ when he introduced the Bill, and I can recall structure has been provided by the existing that at the time of the announcement of the ratepayers in the area, surely it is good Anderson inquiry it was stated very clearly, enough for the people who want to enjoy I think by the Minister, that there was no a higher standard of living by having sealed intention of doing away with the apprentice­ roads, kerbing and channelling, water and ship system of training tradesmen in Queens­ sewerage, to make a contribution towards the land. I must say, however, that I am a little cost. I do not agree with some of the exces­ concerned about the series of announcements sive requirements of local authorities, such made by the Minister from time to time as excessive drainage. On many occasions when foreshadowing the legislation dealing they can be avoided by leaving the badly with apprenticeship training in this State that drained areas out of the subdivision and he intended to introduce. allowing them to be developed as parks, etc., I am a firm believer in the apprenticeship as the years go by. Where good land is method of training the tradesmen of the subdivided into residential allotments, the future, and I am concerned that the Minister amenities should be provided by the deve­ foresees that there could be at some time in loper. the future a system of full·time training with Mention has been made of the wages paid a minimum of on-the-job training. On look­ to apprentices and of the fixation of those ing at the annual report of the Apprentice­ wages being a matter for the Industrial ship Executive for last year, one finds that Commission. If we are to encourage more there were only 5,117 apprenticeships allotted employers to take on apprentices, we must in 1977-78 compared with 5,626 in the pre­ watch the wage structure very closely to vious year. Even that figure was slightly make sure that it does not get out of hand, lower than the allotment in 1975-76 of 5,267. as has been allowed with apprentices' wages in If we do not do something about the the past. By watching the wage structure very training of tradesmen for the future, I predict closely, we will be giving every consideration that if and when this State does start to get to employers to take on more juniors and train back on its feet, we will face a shortage of them. Every wage rise that one person tradesmen. I appreciate that there is some receives costs another man his job. That speculation about whether this State will cannot be denied. We have all seen the ever get back on its feet. I cannot see it effect of it in the community today, and it is doing so in the near future, particularly when exactly the same effect whether we are I look at the present economic situation. It dealing with seniors or juniors. Everybody has not improved; in fact, it is getting worse. can see what has taken place with appentice­ But if we do not start doing something posi­ ship numbers and what will take place tive about the training of our future trades­ rapidly if the system is not changed. men, we will face a shortage of tradesmen, 3188 Industry and Commerce [5 DECEMBER 1978] Training Bill just as we did at the beginning of the with the apprenticeship scheme is the fact expansion of the State's economy which that in 1964 the length of courses was reduced began in 1964 and continued for the 10 years from five years to four years. In actual up to 1974. fact, the period of technical training was I was very pleased to see that provision reduced from five years to three years. Now had been made in the Bill for manpower we have seen block-release training intro­ planning. I think this is most necessary in duced. Of course, that has meant that the this State. From the brief notes I was able time allocated to technical trade instruction to take during the Minister's introductory during an apprenticeship has been reduced. remarks, I think it is a good idea to introduce Therefore, the amount of content in courses this Bill at this stage and allow it to lie on has been reduced. The syllabus has been the table for some time so that all interested tailored to suit the period of the course. parties can study its contents, and, in par­ With the advances in technology in our ticular, compare its provisions with the society today, I believe that it is a serious recommendations of the Anderson inquiry. mistake to tailor the syllabus to suit the From what the Minister said, I cannot see period of the course. any great basic differences, particularly so There are many trades-I refer particularly far as the foreshadowed structure of the to the electrical trade, the radio and T.V. Industry and Commerce Training Commis­ trade, some mechanical fitting trades and sion is concerned. The membership of that the heavy earthmoving equipment trade-in commission, which is to replace the Appren­ which it was a serious mistake to reduce the ticeship Executive, will be increased from amount of technical training and to tailor both the employer and employee sides. The the syllabus content to suit the standard Education Department will also be repre­ period which was allocated for courses in a sented, as at present. majority of trades. I think that instead of The Minister also mentioned the formation reducing the amount of technical training, of advisory committees. From what I can it should have been extended. I argued that gather, the Minister said that their role would way on the group apprenticeship committees, be to some extent broader than that of the but to no avail. existing group apprenticeship committees, I can recall that in the radio and television but I see them playing a similar role. syllabus the Education Department cut out, Of course, the regional advisory committees I think, the communications content and will be comparable with the present advisory inserted the coloured television content. committees in the country areas over the Coloured television is important, but so is length and breadth of the State, and I think communications. A deputation went cap I understood the Minister to say that their in hand to the Education Department at role will be slightly increased or broadened. Kangaroo Point. The argument was put most The word "recommendation" was con­ strongly to us that we did not know what tinually mentioned by the Minister. Having we were talking about. But it is significant served on the electrical group apprenticeship that a few years later the very thing on committee and also the radio and T.V. which we had commented was recognised, group apprenticeship committee for a num­ and there was a slight change in the syllabus. ber of years, and being a tradesman-! was I firmly believe that instead of taking out trained as an electrical fitter-! have some what has been described as the dead wood very strong views about the extent to which in some syllabuses, it should be left in because i~ my humble opinion, lip-service is being a lot of it is important. Instead of trying given to the attitudes, expressions recom­ to cut the dead wood out of syllabuses, the mendations and advice that come from the syllabuses should be extended. group apprenticeship committees. I would Reference has been made to the close ~ate to see the Ed!Jcati'?n Department play­ liaison between the Education Department mg a greater role m this area than its does and the Department of Labour Relations, but at present. I think that it plays a very signi­ it should not stop there. The Education ficant role now in the compilation of the Department should not have free rein, and I syllabuses for the various trades. suggest that the new training commission I am a great believer in group apprentice­ and the advisory committees should have a ship committees and advisory committees significant say in the content of the syllabuses. or regional advisory committees as they wili be known. I believe that they should be In his introductory speech, the l\1inister allowed to continue to play a significant role also foreshadowed the training of adults by in determining the content in the various contract. I do not know how many members apprenticeship syllabuses. I believe that over of this Assembly have similar problems, but the years the role of the representatives on in my electorate of Nudgee I am being inun­ the group apprenticeship committees in deter­ dated with requests for assistance from young mining syllabus content has been reduced. people seeking a job. I am also being inundated with requests for assistance from There has been much talk in this Chamber young people who wish to make something of about advancing technology. People have their lives and who are interested in obtaining been talking about technological changes an apprenticeship. Therefore, I am greatly advancing technology, and the problem~ concerned by the reference in one part of the !!SSociated with it. One of the big problems Minister's speech to the training of adults Industry and Commerce [5 DECEMBER 1978] Training Bill 3189

by contract and then, later, to adult trainees wonders what sort of wage rates these people in a particular apprenticeship and to the com­ will be paid. I do not think that this State or mittees' determining numbers and-I think I nation can afford the luxury of specialists. I have this correctly-also determining whether know that many people are working in they should serve a lesser period of appren­ brake companies, performing the work of ticeship. motor mechanics under the designation of While I was a union official travelling that trade classification. There are even some over the length and breadth of the State and performing work in the electrical trade who looking at the training and employment of should not be there but are there because of electrical tradesmen, I came across a couple a blind eye is turned to what they are doing. of instances in which adult apprentices were That sort of thing is all very well in involved. I do not think it is widely known times of full employment. What happens that there is really no age limit on apprentice­ to those people when there is a serious ship. Even though one is an adult, one can employment situation? They are the first still take out an apprenticeship, provided to get the axe. I have had them come to one can find an employer who is prepared to me and say, "I have been working in a take out indentures. particular capacity. I have some experience in the electrical trade. Can I get a job?" Mr. Warburton: Did you usually find that When employers can pick and choose, they it was a father and son combination? want the all-round tradesmen. They want a tradesman they can send out to a job Mr. VAUGHAN: Yes, in most cases it who can do most of the work involved; was a father and son combination, and quite they do not want a fellow who is good a number of those father and son combina­ only in a particular field. tions broke up after a very short period. The washing machine area has been referred I remember one case at Bowen where a to before. In the electrical trade a few man who had an electrical contracting busi­ years ago, restricted certificates were intro­ ness employed his brother who was 45 years duced. This situation affected persons in the of age. When I first went there, he had washing machine field and a few other areas. him employed as a tradesman's assistant doing They were able to obtain licences from the electrical work. I soon put a stop to that, Electrical Workers and Contractors Board but he short-circuited the system and to work as washing machine mechanics. There employed him as an apprentice. There was are still quite a few firms employing what nothing wrong with that; it was quite legal. I would term "dilutee tradesmen", but the In another case, an electrical contractor at better companies found that it was far better Yeppoon employed as his apprentice his son to employ a tradesman electrician who had who was about 35 years of age. There was served a recognised apprenticeship. Such a nothing wrong with that. Problems arise person could be sent to any job. If a person because apprenticeship regulations lay down is trained in only a portion of the trade, he has the type and extent of training that is to be no flexibility. In most instances, he is tied given to an apprentice. These adult appren­ to one particular job, and cannot move ticeships became a farce. I recall one around. I am very concerned about that occasion when I went to Blackwater and found facet of the Minister's speech. a first-year apprentice from Yeppoon wiring I turn now to the mention of pre-vocational the local Ampol service station by himself. training. I agree that something has to be He was fairly competent-obviously, he had done about a bridging course between the been doing the work for a long time-but tuition given to young lads and girls at high it made a complete farce of the system. school and their taking out of an apprentice· Although it may be argued that the use ship. Quite a number of us in this Chamber of adult trainees in callings for which did the old five-year apprenticeship course. apprenticeships are necessary is the answer to Many persons who undertook that course the pro,blem, I am very concerned about the went no further at school than the scholar­ future of. the young people of this State. If ship standard before they entered a trade. there are to be adult trainees, there will be The first year of their course was virtually fewer opportunities for young people seeking an orientation year during which they were their first job. If we are to have adult brushed up on subjects such as maths and trainees, a hard-and-fast system of training science. After the period of five years, of must be laid down for them. Because of course, they completed their apprenticeship, my experience in the past, I have grave when they were as good at their trade as doubts about the use of adult trainees. anyone else. Another aspect of the Minister's intro­ But there is a problem with the preparation ductory speech about which I am concerned for trades that is given in high schools is the proposal that in certain facets of today. There is a minimum qualification for trades there should be an apprenticeship for entry to trade training. At the present time, a lesser period than that ordinarily recognised. employers can sit back and pick the best Until I know much more about that proposal, available, because there are only a few I shall be completely opposed to it. It is vacancies. I firmly believe that there has to a further short-circuiting of the apprentice­ be some form of bridging course. I do rtot ship system and an attempt to break it down think that pre-vocational training is the com­ and produce half-baked tradesmen. One plete answer. It has gone a long way towards 3190 Industry and Commerce [5 DECEMBER 1978] Training Bill achieving some form of bridging, but a lot short apprenticeship. As he pointed out quite more consideration has to be given to the rightly, the training of apprentices is con­ basic essentials required by a lad or girl trolled by regulations. He then claimed that proceeding into an apprenticeship after leav­ it is farcical for the Government to go ing high school. Consideration must be given ahead with this. That has not been the case to the standards of entry. With the reduced on the Darling Downs, nor has it been the period of technical training at present apply­ case, I venture to suggest, throughout the ing, it is quite unfair on the lad who is remainder of the State. A large number of perhaps not quite so bright but who wants adult apprentices have been given training. to enter a certain trade. The member for Nudgee seemed to be I noted the comments of the honourable concerned mainly about the rate of pay. member for Redlands about block-release He said that, as a union inspector of some training. A pool of apprentices should be set sort or a union representative, he found a up so that when a small employer's appren­ tradesman's assistant working on electrical tice goes to block-release training, he has installations and was horrified to think that somewhere from which to draw a replace­ he was not receiving the tradesman's pay. ment. A group of employers in one area Never once did the honourable member men­ could get together and pool their appren­ tion the fact that, if he was not properly tices, so that when an apprentice engaged by trade trained, he might be performing a one of them undertook his block-release disservice to someone and creating a danger training his employer could go, say, to the not only to himself but also to those who S.E.Q.E.B. or the Railway Department and used the electrical installation on which he obtain an apprentice to take the place of his had been working. It is a pity that the own. I have received complaints from honourable member adopted that attitude. He employers in my electorate about the block­ will find that in his electorate there are a release training system. I suggest that the large number of adults who could be helped creation of a pool of apprentices would help by the provisions of the Bill when it overcome the problem. As to technicians, the becomes law. He does not seem to be aware Minister stated that they would not be super of the fact that an adult, before being given tradesmen. an apprenticeship, must satisfy very rigid (Time expired.) requirements. It is not simply a case of getting an adult into a job at sweated labour Dr. LOCKWOOD (Toowoomba North) rates. (3.26 p.m.): In rising to support the Minister Mr. R. J. Gibbs: What about poorly on his introduction of the Bill, I am mindful trained doctors? of the need to change the system of training of apprentices. For too long, the trades have The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. been left behind in the provision by both Gunn): Order! What about the honourable the State and Federal Governments of member's returning to his proper seat? tertiary education. Too much emphasis is placed on the training, at taxpayers' expense, Dr. LOCKWOOD: I point out to the of young people who will come out of the honoumble member, who seems to have colleges or universities with either diplomas become lost in the Chamber, that we have or degrees. For a long time, there has been done a great deal to train them (and a cry for equal emphasis to be placed on the train them well) and that now we are about training of young people who wish to enter to do the same for apprentices and those the trades as apprentices. The Bill will go a who can benefit from a shorter education long way to allowing the technical and fur­ course. ther education colleges to implement courses In centres at Toowoomba and elsewhere not only for apprentices but also for those throughout Queensland and Australia adult who can gain employment after a much apprentices are not put to work as sweated shorter course of training. In some instances, labour. They receive a Commonwealth sub­ a course of only two or three weeks might be sidy. Honourable members who know any­ necessary to allow young people to enter thing at all about the Commonwealth employment. It must not be considered that Employment Service realise that, when it the Bill covers only apprentices who receive gives a subsidy under any of its training three or four years' training. programmes, regular on-the-job inspections are made to ensure that worthwhile, practical As the Minister said, the new commission training is being given. I support the Too­ will be responsible for the training of adults. woomba Branch of the Commonwealth I take strong exception to the remarks of the Employment Service and the manager, Mr. member for Nudgee. McCormack, on the way that checks are Mr. Mackenroth: If you take exception, made to ensure that any adult apprentice he must have made a very good speech. in the region is getting worthwhile, adequate training. Those who have been trained have Dr. LOCKWOOD: If the honourable achieved very good marks. They have been member keeps quiet, he will find that his a credit to themselves, their employers and colleague from Nudgee made a few mistakes. the diligence of the C.E.S. in seeing that He said, for example, that he was concer­ they undertake an adequate and proper ned about the possibility of adults receiving course. apprenticeship by contract and serving a Mr. R. J. Gibbs interjected. Industry and Commerce [5 DECEMBiiR 1978] Training Bill 3191

Dr. LOCKWOOD: The honourable mem­ who have been trained for a particular trade ber may make his speech later. or profession can look for retraining with the minimum of effort. The Bill will complement necessary changes in colleges of technical and further education The committee of parliamentarians that has been touring this State seeking opinions to implement pre-vocational and pre­ from people in Government, industry and apprentice training. A great deal of research commerce on what Governments, particularly has been undertaken at Cairns, Bundaberg State Governments, can do about employment and Eagle Fanm, where these courses have has been told repeatedly that there is a need been conducted. to review the wage structure, particularly as I should point out that both students it relates to juniors. I do not see how and teachers at the T.A.F.E. college in Queensland, as one State, can approach the Bundaberg believe that, in the initial stage, problems that are currently facing our young benefits could be gained by having two people and, with one broad legislative sweep, intakes a year of 23 or 24 weeks rather reduce the wages of all juniors. It is, never­ than one long course of 33 or 36 weeks, theless, time for every State and the Com­ which is very difficult to fit into the schoo.l monwealth, all arbitration commissions, all year. They believe that they can achieve unions, all employers and all parents to take a great deal more, with the given constraints a good hard look at junior wages. It is true of time and money, with two intakes of 23 that during the building boom there was or 24 weeks. I certainly back the notion a scramble to get apprentices and to keep that a regional advisory committee, which people in full employment; and wages rose is to be set up under this Bill, should be quite dramatically. able to recommend very strongly that in an Mr. R. J. Gibbs: What about the fees area where there is a backlog of students that G.P.s charge? who could benefit from pre-vocational or pre-apprenticeship training, the initial courses, Dr. LOCKWOOD: We pegged our fees until the backlog is overcome, should run for quite a long time in a state of drought for 23 or 24 weeks, with two intakes a year. but I do not think that the honourable mem­ That opinion was voiced in Bundaberg and ber has ever held his fees back. Evidently I believe it could well be adopted State­ I struck a tender nerve in the A.L.P. wide. Opposition Members interjected. Retraining for adults who are no longer employable because of rapid changes in their The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. fields of endeavour could also come under this Bill. In that regard I have only to Row): Order! I remind honourable members mention the rapid changes in the plastics that persistent interjections and cross-firing industry, which have meant radical changes will not be tolerated. in plumbing. Today, a lot of plumbing is done with plastic pipes and a can of glue, Dr. LOCKWOOD: Thank you, Mr. Row. which gives permanent seals. Many plumbers Juniors have been priced out of jobs and do a great deal of plumbing without lighting apprentices and labourers are no exception. a soldering iron and using flux and solder. For example, in the building industry, the A great deal of good plumbing is being difference between a first-year apprentice's done with plastics, particularly the non­ wages and the value of his productivity is corrosive type. I cite that merely as one of approximately $60 a week. Certainly this the changes that have taken place in one problem is added to, to a great extent, by trade. In many trades and callings great the need to allow him to undertake block­ bene,fits will flow from the provisions in this release training. BiLl covering short refresher and retraining courses. I congratulate the Minister on Mr. K. J. Hooper interjected. his endeavours. Dr. LOCKWOOD: I earned my first dollar It has been found that one message for or pound after I graduated and became of the future is that society has to gear itself some use to the community. I was not paid for ever greater changes and an ever­ to train. increasing rate of change. At the Queens­ Although there is a great difference land Institute of Technology next door to between wages and value of productivity, this building, 30 or 40 people who were some people-but not many-are still pre­ training as medical technologists found pared to take on apprentices in the building before they completed their course that they trades. There are a great many problems were no longer needed. Provision is made and they do not all hang on wages. There in the !BiU to cope with this sort of problem, has been a great downturn in the building and that was alluded to by the Minister industry and one of the sad facts is that, in his introductory comments on manpower although this downturn came about when investigations. It wiU not be a directive body, but one engaging in research to discover Whitlam was in office-- the needs of industry and commerce in these An Opposition Member interjected. times orf very great change and to ensure that we are training people to meet the Dr. LOCKWOOD: The honourable mem­ change. It will also indicate where those ber should check his records. 3192 Industry and Commerce [5 DECEMBER 1978] Training Bill

The Fraser Government has been able to Dr. LOCKWOOD: The honourable mem­ go half way in the recovery to the former ber should go and visit a specialist and find level. Unfortunately, the recovery has out what is wrong with him. I will give him levelled off and has not risen in the past a referral right after I have finished my year. speech. Opposition Members interjected. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dr. LOCKWOOD: We have the hornets Row): Order! I warn the honourable member buzzing again. Evidently I stirred them by for Wolston that he should not interject from ,other than his usual seat. hitting a tender spot. There is a need for the Commonwealth Dr. LOCKWOOD: The honourable mem­ Government to finance more housing. The ber was referring to a psychiatrist's fees, not housing industry should be stimulated. It those charged by an eye doctor. is twice as efficient in Australia as it is in As I said, if the unions will enter into the the U.K. and three times as efficient as it spirit of this and get more people into is in Communist Bulgaria, so our Australian apprenticeship training, they will see more fellows deserve a pat on the back. The union members. They cannot sell union housing industry has a tremendous multi­ tickets to the unemployed, and it is about plier effect. As it picks up it creates a 250 time that the A.L.P. and the trade union move­ per cent increase across all trades and supply ment woke up to that. If they get young industries. people into jobs, they eventually have half a It is no use saying there is not a need chance of selling them union tickets. But for housing, because there is. Some people while they go on as they have been, they in the Federal sphere have said that there will not get young people into jobs. They is no need for housing. They have obviously cannot sell union tickets in the unemploy­ been misled. All State parliamentarians con­ ment queue. So the sooner they get their tinually have people coming to them to get house in order and get some sense into junior houses for purchase or rent. wage control, the sooner they will have many There is a great need for a subsidy or more people buying union tickets. some other stimulus to be given to the Mr. R . .J. Gibbs: Tell us about the exorbi­ building industry. There is also a need to tant profits. remove from the building industry the effects of many budgetary decisions made by the Dr. LOCKWOOD: There aren't many pro­ Commonwealth Government, particularly fits in building at the moment. recessions that are due to the calling in of money by the Reserve Bank. This always The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! I have asked the honourable member to bounces first on the major purchase, which cease interjecting from other than his usual happens to be a house, and is reflected a~m?st seat. If he does not desist, I will warn him immediately in the number of bmldmg under Standing Order 123A. approvals and commencements. This Bill proposes to transfer wage control Dr. LOCKWOOD: He cannot find his way from the Apprenticeship Executive to the back to his seat, Mr. Row. It is a particular Industrial Conciliation and Arbitration Com­ neurological problem; people get lost in space. mission. I believe that with this Bill the Govern­ Mr. Vaughan: That's not right. ment is doing aH in its power to bring about those changes that are necessary to assist Dr. LOCKWOOD: The honourable mem­ our technical and further education colleges ber might not think so, but he will find out and to implement courses of pre-vocational that I am right. and pre-apprenticeship training. We still I appeal to all who have anything to do need a Jot of support, and I think that one with the setting of wages, particularly those of the things that will be fo~thcoming­ of apprentices and juniors, to bear in mind and the full success of this scheme is depend­ that they are acting for the haves and are ent on it-will be the implementation by the leaving the have-nots clean out, and that Commonwealth of schemes of subsidy to help every wage rise is acting against more and our young people into employment after they more of the have-nots. There is one thing have been through their course of pre­ the unions want to wake up to if they have vocational or pre-apprenticeship training. any sense, and that is that they have to Mr. Vaughan: Pre-apprenticeship training make some effort to control the wages of was finished this year. juniors. They have to agree that the wages of juniors on a course of training should be Dr. LOCKWOOD: Whereabouts? adequately controlled. They need to see that Mr. Vaughan: In Queensland. the wages are attractive enough so that the juniors will enter a profession and train in Dr. LOCKWOOD: Yes, we are changing that profession. If they do that, they will the system. We are adopting a completely find th:1t there will be more apprentices and different system. they will sell more union tickets. Mr. Vaughan: I suggest that you read the Mr. R. J. Gibbs: $40 for a 15-minute visit a_nnual report of the Apprenticeship Execu­ to a specialist on \Vickham Terrace. tive. Industry and Commerce [5 DECEMBER 1978] Training Bill 3193

Dr. LOCKWOOD: I suggest that the hon­ honourable member ruined what at the out­ ourable member wait and see what this Bill set seemed to be a reasonable speech by does. It will even help him down in Nudgee making such stupid comments. with his electricians. Like the shadow Minister for Labour The technical and further education col­ Relations, I support, in principle, what the leges will need some support in the early Minister is trying to do here, because there is months of the change-over. Although it is a need to broaden the roles of the technical now 5 December, they have to be working colleges and to ensure that there is oppor­ in their new role at the commencement of tunity for pre-vocational and pre-apprentice­ the next education year. A great many ship training. It is important that we give people are waiting to be transferred, or have adults who for many reasons have missed been transferred, and they will not have a Jot out on training an opportunity to come back of time to study the changes they have to and be trained or retrained. There is a real implement next year. So I think there will need in our community today for manpower have to be a great deal of willing co-opera­ planning. Later in my speech I will mention tion between the various departments to make the technologic:.~l changes taking place that sure that this scheme does get off to a good emphasise this important point. start early in the new year. As I said before, I commend the Bill to the Committee, and I When I first heard the Minister speaking on have great pleasure in supporting the Minis­ this matter, I realised that at long last we ter in its introductions. are getting somewhere near the original con­ cept of the community college. I am pleased Mr. WRIGHT (Rockhampton) (3.44 to see that the Minister is incorporating some p.rn.): I listened rather carefully to the hon­ of those aspects and some of those character­ ourable member for Toowoornba North. I istics in what he is doin$ here. But it is thought that he had a sensible contribution to important to remember ah\ays that when make, but it seems that once he gets onto one introduces such a massive, radical and the subject of unions he is right out of his progressive change, one must consider cost. depth. He made some stupid statements, The Minister talked about a five-year pro­ which I think is a pity, because he ruined gramme costing $170,000,000-odd. We must what could have been a reasonable speech. appreciate that this will not be done over­ I am amazed to hear such a person say that night, and no-one expects it to be done the trade unions are not interested in trying overnight. to get young people to enter into apprentice­ I am pleased also to see that the Minister ships. is prepared to allow people within the corn7 Those that I have been involved with are munity, within industry and within the trade desperately trying a number of ways to unions, to sit down and consider the Bill persuade employers to increase the number in great detail and to come back, I hope, of apprentices who work in industry. There with some amendments or further suggestion, is constant pressure on the Main Roads because that is the way in which to bring Department, the Railway Department and forward positive legislation. I should imag­ all instrumentalities in the public sector to ine that the whole scheme will eventually increase employment opportunities in this centre around the T.A.F.E. colleges. If this way. It did not surprise me, however, to is so, the Minister will have to get some sort hear the honourable member start to talk of co-operation from the Works Department. about the Whitlam Government. It seems It is all very well to say that next year, when that when a Liberal has not the answer to the pilot scheme starts, hundreds of young a problem, he has to go back about four people will be coming into the technical or five years to put the blame somewhere education area where they can be given some else. If he had bothered to check the statistics type of training. We will not be able to do today, he would have seen that more busi­ that if we have not the staff or the facilities nesses are going broke under Fraser than to provide that training. ever went broke under Whitlam. Recently I had the opportunity to visit The unemployment statistics today are the Rockhampton technical college or, as it drastic, yet the honourable member tends to is called today, the Rockhampton College of hide that fact. He is like the ostrich. He talked Technical and Further Education. I know about the building industry, but he forgets that the member for Peak Downs has taken that it is the Fraser Government that is a personal interest in this matter, and I corn­ creating the problems in the building industry mend him for it. We do not believe that and will not appreciate the important catalyst this is a political issue and we do not believe that the building industry represents in the that the T.A.F.E. college at Rockharnpton is economy. something only for Rockhampton; it is some­ It did not surprise me, Mr. Row, to hear thing for Central Queensland. I would hope the honourable member say these things; that later the member for Peak Downs will obviously he was running out of points and rise in this Chamber and make known the had to turn to union-bashing. If Liberal observations that he made on a recent visit members have nothing else to say, they think to that college. The point that was made the ideal move is to get up and belt the when I attended the speech night at that col­ unions and try to get into Cabinet that way. lege, which has also been made to me since As I have said, it is a great pity that the in my consultations with staff members and 3194 Industry and Commerce [5 DECEMBER 1978] Training Bill parents and students who attend that college, not there to begin with. Therefore, I ask is that it would be almost impossible to the Minister for Labour Relations to speak start introducing expanded courses in any to the Minister for Works and Housing and area in the Rockhampton College of Tech­ see whether an upgrading programme nical and Further Education. can be adopted immediately, as a couple One of the students has given me some of hundred additional students could be details. He said that it is a sheer impossibil­ injected into this coilege. ity for students to use the college to its full I am well aware of the advantages that capacity; that they go there for certain types have alreadv been seen from the office of training and then get out. Shop keepers training courses. I have spoken to students have complained to the police that the who graduated recently; I have spoken also students who attend that college have no to employers who have benefited from the canteen facilities and so they hang around type of training that is now being provided. the streets. I know, for instance, that there Many benefits have been derived from the are no student amenities where students can scheme that the Minister has put forward, sit, eat or even get cover from rain. There but it is not possible to achieve the desired are no student recreational facilities. There goals unless the facilities and staff are are simply no facilities to meet all the other available. aspects of the training about which we talked. In his introductory speech, the Minister mentioned technological change. It was There is insufficient staff accommodation. apparent from what he said that Commis­ There is insufficient staff-room furniture. sioner Anderson looked at this question in There is insufficient common-room accom­ his inquiry. However, I cannot accept that modation. One could go on and on. The it is just something that pertains to this college simply does not have the facilities State. If we are to begin looking at man­ at the moment. power questions, at the future and at the Leave aside those things for a moment effects on our society, on employment and and look at the actual building that will no unemployment, of mechanisation and tech­ doubt be used for retraining and for pre­ nological change, we do not want some vocational and pre-apprenticeship training. narrow-and I use that term with all due The whole building is deteriorating. respect-State inquiry; we need a national In block A, there is total deterioration approach. I would urge full national and of the building; there is inadequate class­ public inquiry into the question of tech­ room space, to begin with, and no student nological change and the effect that it will facilities. Block B is the old engineering have on society. It will have to involve shop, which at the moment is being used leaders of industry, leaders of commerce, as a store-room. It is very depressing and people in government with the necessary very hot, and it is completely inadequate expertise, and, more especially, representa­ to meet the needs of the scheme that the tives of the trade union movement. It will Minister is putting forward. It has inadequate have to plan for the effects of forecast toilet facilities. Block C is very dilapidated technological changes. and very depressing. The wall on the northern side is moving out and some of At the moment, it seems that most people the ceiling joists are getting dangerously ,;ay, "Oh, these things have to come. You close to the edge of the columns. Yet can't fight change." However, when one this is the place that is going to be put realises that Australia is very close to having forward as the idell!l centre for training of 500,000 people out of work, and that a tech­ this type. The whole place needs additional nological foundation is being set up through­ lighting and ventilation, and it needs out Australia to try to set some positive repainting. goals, one begins to understand that the future of many hundreds and thousands of people I might mention, too, that the toilets in at present in the work-force is being placed block C are in the old air-raid shelter. It at risk and that the future of students still at is dark and dingy, and there is no separate school is completely dismal. provision for females. The issue is one of great importance Mr. Powcll: It should be safe. and must exercise the mind of every thinking person. We must begin to say that whilst Mr. WRIGHT: I do not think that would profits are important, they are not the be-all be so. and end-aH, that we cannot continuallv I realise that it is not possible to do waste the human resources that are being everything at once. This matter has been wasted at the moment because of the high raised before, and I know that previous levels of unemplo)'ment. There is a tragic principals have suggested that some sort waste of human resources, and there must of ongoing plan ought to be produced to be some type of national inquiry, involving upgrade the facilities at the technical coiiege nery State Government, to plan how to at Rockhampton. Of course, money is not absorb not only the current unemployment always available. But proposals for very in the work-force but also the young people radical and progressive new schemes do not who will enter the work-force in the years really go down well with the public when to come. It must plan also to ensure they know that the necessary facilities are that the full advantage is reaped from great Industry and Commerce [5 DECEMBER 1978) Training Bill 3195

technical change without the reintroduction and I support what was said by the honour­ of massive unemployment. This seems to able member for Rockhampton North. be the difficulty. Although the Bill is worth studying in the next couple of months, I am sure it is not The exodus from country areas is a good the be-all and end-all of the problem and example of the problem. While there are I am sure the Minister will have to lo~k at advantages in mass production of food we see the I_Tiatter very carefully, especially as it lhat thousands of people have been f~rced to pertams. to. the technological advances and leave the land and that thousands of others mechanrsatwn that are coming. will do so. As mechanisation continues and as new ideas and computers are introduced in ~nking .and industry, more people will be Mr. POWELL (Isis) (3.58 p.m.): Recent Without Jobs. It is not good enough simply to months have. seen a renewal of the debate sa;; that ~e will lessen the work period, that we ?n .the c.a~acity of the apprenticeship system "~>Ill cut 1t down to a 30-hour week because m Its existmg form to provide the range and il will not stop there. There has' to be a level. of trade skills needed to meet the different approach. I do not believe that reqmrements of the Australian labour the answers are known today. If they force, and to respond with sufficient flexibility were, surely America, with all its expertise, and speed to. changes in demand for trades­ would have found a solution. men m particular categories. The debate has undoubt~d!y been stimulated by the fact .There is a serious problem here, one that that the existmg employment problem has Will not be overcome by simply retraining. made :n:ore . obvious the vulnerability of the What is the use of having young people apprenticeship system to cyclical patterns in coming to a technical college, a college of the economy. advanced education, a community college-­ call it what you like-to undertake retrainin" One wonders whether the introduction of in an area of their own choice, when in tw~ ~his J:lill is just a stopgap measure, one that years' time there may not be jobs for persons Is bemg brought in admittedly probably as so trained? We have to make a long-term the r.esul~ of an inquiry known as the Ander­ approach to this issue. son m9mry, but one that is a sort of last resort m an attempt to do something about Any State retraining scheme should be in a problem to what all people in the western accordance with the results of the proposed \~·orld. seem to find no answer. After national inquiry I am suggesting. It is ridic­ hstenrng to the Minister and the honourable ulous to say that we will do this simply member for Rockhampton, I am more than because we know that there has been pressure ever confirmed in my view that apprenticeship to have pre-vocational training and because should not come under a labour department we know there is a need for pre-apprentice­ but under the Department of Education. ship training. It could well be that in five I~ would seem that the matter is an educa­ years' time all the areas of occupation we tional problem, and one where a deal of are talking about will be totally changed. common sense needs to prevail. While there may be 200 or 300 persons involved in one task at the moment, in five In introducing the Bill, the Minister said years' time, as a result of computerisation, that the Apprenticeship Executive would be 20 people might be able to do the same job. replaced by a commission, and that that This is a matter of great concern; I know commission would have five major functions the Minister is concerned about it. I know r:amely, to review and to look at pre-voca~ that he has had a submission from the tional and pre-apprenticeship courses adult foundation that has been set up to look at training and retraining courses, ma~power technological change. I am not sure how planning, training in occupational other than much notice he has taken of it, but I know apprenticeship trades, and training of tech­ that he is certainly aware of the problems. nicians. As I read through that list and consider the way the scheme is set up at To my mind, the next 10 years are fright­ the moment, it is quite obvious to me that ening. Man is being taken over by the a great deal of education enters into it. I machine, and man is being thrown on to the am unhappy-indeed, very unhappy-that scrap-heap. Profits cannot replace people; there is a move afoot to replace the Appren­ profits should not be placed before people. ticeship Executive with a commission. It Naturally society will benefit from change if seems to me that whenever the Government it is brought in in a guided way and our is unable to find a ready answer, it immed­ training programmes are tailored to suit this iately sets up a committee and subsequently change. a commission. I support in principle what the Minister I am particularly concerned at the fact is doing. I realise it is a radical change that the Government, comprising the elected 3196 Industry and Commerce (5 DECEMBER 1978] Training Bill

representatives of the people, is too ready employers simply cannot afford to take to abdicate its responsibilities by setting up apprentices on. I have figures that bear out a commission and, when the commission my claims. makes an unpopular decision or one that the Government does not like, to wash its I want to refer to a news item that appeared hands of the whole affair, saying, "Oh yes, in "The Sunday Mail" of 3 September 19n but it was the commission that made the under the headline "We'll pay you to train decision, not the Government." That is not our sons, say parents". I would be astounded good enough. Unfortunately, it is a direction if any honourable member could claim that in which the Government not only of this he or she has not interviewed parents who State but also of this nation is heading. I have made similar comments. They would do not like it one little bit. be quite happy to pay employers to engage their sons as apprentices in the various trades. In introducing the Bill, the Minister men­ The cost structure of employing apprentices tioned a commission comprising 14 people, is very high indeed. The figures that I am of whom two-the commissioner and the about to give pertain almost exclusively to Director of Technical and Further Education the building industry. -will be ex officio, six will represent employers and six will represent employees. In Queensland, a first-year apprentice As the Minister has not explained how these receives 45.4 per cent of a tradesman's wage. people will be selected or appointed, we do I will compare that with the percentages in not know what the position is. However, other States. In New South Wales, it is I want to put forward a few suggestions and 40.1 per cent of the tradesman's wage; in I hope that they will be accepted as con­ Victoria, 39.9 per cent; In South Australia, structive. 38.5 per cent; and in Western Australia, 45.9 per cent. In the second year, the I am well aware that some of the previous Queensland apprentice receives 58.8 per cent speakers sit on the Opposition side. But of the tradesman's wage; in New South surely the fact that they are in the Opposi­ Wales, 55.7 per cent; in Victoria, 48.8 per tion does not necessarily mean that their cent; in South Australia, 45.7 per cent; and comments should be negative. Although I in Western Australia, 58.1 per cent. Moving oppose many aspects of the legislation, I hope to the fourth year, the Queensland appren­ that I will not be seen as making negative tice receives 90 per cent of the tradesman's statements in relation to it. wage. In New South Wales, he receives 82.3 I hope that the 12 people who will be per cent; in Victoria, 79.9 per cent; and in appointed to the commission will be so South Australia, the State which honour­ appointed by the Minister with the approval able members opposite always describe as of the Governor in Council. I would hope the great State for the equalisation of wages, that we do not have the situation in which the fourth-year apprentice receives 71.1 per certain employer representatives are elected cent of the tradesman's wage. by certain groups and certain employee rep­ Mr. Vaughan interjected. resentatives are similarly elected, with the result that we have a full-scale brawl on our hands to determine who will become members Mr. POWELL: The honourable member of the commission. has had his turn; he can wait until I have finished. I am not in favour of a 6 to 6 balance. One of the main problems that confront In Western Australia, the fourth-year employers is their inability to afford to apprentice receives 86.7 per 'cent of the employ apprentices. When the honourable tradesman's rate. ~ember for Toowoomba North was making his speech, we saw an interchange between My proposition is that the percentage of him and a member who referred to the the tradesman's rate for apprentices should way he was trained as a medical practitioner. be inserted in this legislation. It should be He stated that he did not receive one cent part of legislation not a matter for another during his training. His comment was quite commission. Earlier in my speech I argued valid. Although I would not for one against commissions. I believe that they are mon;ent suggest that apprentices should not statutory bodies through which the Gov­ ernment can abdicate from its electoral receive ~ny ~e~ompense while they under­ !ake .their trammg, I claim that apprentices responsibility. I do not believe that it should do so. m this ~tat.e and in others are overpaid. My contentiOn IS borne out by almost all employer We must do something constructive about rep:esentative groups in country areas. A getting more apprentices into the work-force. maJor reason for the insufficient number of One way of doing so would be to examine apprentices is the high cost involved m the percentages I have cited and decide employing them. A large number of which set should go into this legislation. I Industry and Commerce [5 DECEMBER 1978] Training Bill 3197 see no reason at all why the Government Mr. POWELL: If the honourable mem­ elected by the people should not make the ber just keeps quiet, I will continue with decision. my recommendations. Mr. Vaughan: Who's going to decide? To further my proposition, I shall refer to a table which I seek leave to have incor­ Mr. POWELL: I know that the honour­ porated in "Hansard". able member would be opposed to that, because he does not agree with putting votes Mr. Houston: Did you arrange it first? into a ballot-box and having the Government decide. But that is what I am advocating. Mr. POWELL: Yes, I did. Mr. Vaughan interjected. (Leave granted.)

CARPENTRY APPRENTICE SOUTH. QLD. 13-9-78 Table "A"

Lost or Unproductive Time per Year -- I 1st 2nd 3rd 4th Trades- I Year I Year I Year Year man I Stat. Holidays ...... I 10 10 10 10 10 Contingent Holiday (This eventuates in most years) 1 1 1 1 1 An nual Leave ...... 20 I 20 20 20 20 Si ck Leave ...... 10 10 10 10 10 Ju ry Service (Nominated Allowance) ...... 0.1 wet Days (Award allows 32 hrs per 4 weekly period I making a possible maximum per year of 32 days) I Actual lost time wiii depend on work situation. Minimum allowance would be 3.9-4 days .. 4 4 4 4 3.9 Bl ock Release Training ...... 35 35 20 . . . . LINE "A" TOTALS OF LOST TIME .. .. l 80 80 65 45 45.0 I I

Table" B"

Actual Number of Days Pay Received

I

Days Pay Received (52 weeks x 5 days) .. . . 260 260 260 260 260 + 17!-% loading on 20 days ...... I 3.5 I 3.5 3.5 3.5 3.5 + Long Service Leave (13 weeks after 15 years) 13 X 5 = --- ...... 4.3 4.3 4.3 4.3 4.3 15 LINE" B" TOTAL OF DAYS PAY RECEIVED I 267.8 267.8 267.8 267.8 267.8 I

Table" C"

Nett Working Days per Year

52 weeks x 5 days ...... 260 260 260 260 260 Ded uct Total Line "A" above ...... -80 -80 -65 -45 -45 LIN E "C" NETT WORKING DAYS y EAR ...... PE~~ 180 180 195 215 215 3198 Industry and Commerce [5 DECEMBER 1978] Training Bill

Table" D"

-- Ratio of Days Pay Received to Nett No. of Working Days

i I I Ratio: Days Pay Received (Line " B ") 267.8 I 267.8 I 267.8 267.8 267.8 I I I I

: Nett No. of Working Days (Line" C ") 180 180 I 195 1 21s 215 Add Workers Comp. 4.70% = ...... 1.487 =1.487 !=1.373 1=1.246 =1.246 Pay Roll Tax 5.00% i 9.7 % ...... 144 .144 .133 .121 .121 I ! I I LINE " D " FACTORS TO BE APPLIED TO I WEEKLY WAGE TO COVER ALL ALLOW- I I ANCES AND LOADINGS ...... 1.631 1.631 i 1.506 1.367 1.367 I I I

Table" E"

Apply Factor "D " to CuiTent Award

4th Trades- Year man I Todays current Award 13-9-78 85.60 114.70 1153.40 182.50 j206.40 Tools 122.50 per year 52 = per week .. 2.36 2.36 2.36 2.36 .. I I 87.96 117.06 1155.76 184.86 206.40 x by Factor " D " above .. 1.631 1.631 1 1.506 1.367 1.367

143.46 190.92 I 234.57 252.70 282.15 + Travelling and Fares 10.50 10.50 10.50 10.50 10.50

153.96 I 211.42 245.07 1263.W 292.65- Deduct apprenticeship subsidy (CRAFT). For information, subsidy applies to- 1 I i 1st year apprentices ...... $12 per day-Block Release (35 days) = $420 2nd year apprentices ...... $12 per day-Block Release (3 5 days) = $420 3rd year apprentices ...... $16perday-BiockRelease(20days) = $320 This subsidy must be apportioned over nett working time (Refer Line "C" above), Thus 1st & 2nd Year 3rd Year 420 320 (--) (--) 180--o-5 180--o-5

(= 36 weeks) = _1__ L_67_ _u_.6_7_1_8_._89_ __·_· _ ___._. _ 1 1 1

142.29 199.75 I' 236.18 1263.20 292.65 Total cost per hour excluding overhead -c- 40 = 3.56 4.99 ' 5.90 6.58 7.32 ------!---- I 1------j------LINE " E " COST OF EMPLOYING j ' APPRENTICES EXPRESSED AS % OF i I TRADESMAN * (not including office over­ heads and supervision) ...... 48.62% 168.26% 180.70% 189.94% 100%

Viewing the foregoing % figure, a first year lad Average over 4 years 71.88; or, putting it obviously cannot be expected to work at another way, over his 4 year apprentice­ 48.62% as effectively as a tradesman. The ship, the lad costs 71.88% of a Tradesman average figure over the four year apprentice­ in terms of" On Job " hours. ship is interesting. * (Conservatively estimated at 35 %) Industry and Commerce [5 DECEMBER 1978] Training Bill 3199

Mr. Houston: How many pages are being be brought to bear to have them changed, included? except through the correct channels. When unions and employers do not like decisions The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. handed down by the commission, they have Row): The matter of the incorporation of an avenue of redress. We know that there the document in "Hansard" was arranged are people in the community who will with the previous occupant of the chair. manipulate others. Personally I do not want that manipulation to take place. . :VIr,. P~WELL: In this document, a very One other matter that should be raised is Illummatmg argument is presented. It sets the tool allowance. The legislation pres­ out the number of unproductive or lost days cribes that $4.30 a week be provided as tool !or certain employees so far as the employer allowance. Under the legislation, employers Is cc.mcerned ..It includes statutory holidays, are made to pay that $4.30 a week. I shall contmgent holidays, annual leave sick leave confine my remarks to the building industry jury service, wet days and so o~. It point~ at this stage. About the end of June, the out that the employer loses 80 days with Master Builders' Association worked out a a first-year apprentice, whereas he loses 45 set of tools that it believed a carpenter days with a tradesman. The table also shows should have. The set cost a total of $359.34. that th~ to~al of days' .pay received by an Under the legislation, an apprentice is paid apprentice IS 267.8, while the net working $490 in four years. The proposition put days for an apprentice first-year is 180. In the second year, it is also 180 but in the forward by the Master Builders' Association !hir.d year it is 195 and in the' fourth year was that if the employer bought the tools It. IS 215 .. The major reason for the big and gave them to the lad, it would cost difference Is the block-release training. almost $360, and the lad would have a full set of tools from the day he started work. He Numerous small emplovers throughout would be taught how to care for them and Queensl.and-those who are- employing more how to be responsible for them. But, because appren.tices than the rest-are complaining of pressures beyond the control of the Gov­ very bitterly about the block-release training. ernment or the employers, we cannot have Wh.en honourable members have the oppor­ that change. So we have the ridiculous tumty to read through this document that situation where the employer has to pay will be included in "Hansard", they will see $4.30 a week as a tool allowance, which why they are complaining. It does not probably is not spent on tools, anyhow. I :natter to a large employer if an apprentice believe that when the Act is being revised IS away for seven weeks at a time, or what­ those things should be taken into considera­ ever the period is-it is a lesser period in tion. the third year-but it does matter in the small operation, where perhaps only three or I am unhappy with this Bill. As the !our people are working and the apprentice Minister explained it, it seems to be just a IS asked to work for his pay. If the Gov­ renaming of the existing legislation. I ernment were to act responsibly on behalf believe that the Government must look far of the people who are attempting to obtain more closely at the proposition of setting up apprenticeships and on behalf of the yet another commission. I believe the Gov­ employers, it would provide in the legislation ernment should accept the proposition I have the percentages of the tradesman's wage that put forward, that apprentices wages, as per­ apprentices' wages should be. centages of adult wages, should be set out in the Bill so they cannot be fiddled with by In 1973, the Industrial Commission heard vet another commission. I believe that the a case in which the proposition put by the timetable the Minister mentioned at the con­ unions was vastly different from what the clusion of his speech should be followed, and position was at that time. The unions that there should now be established a train­ wished to increase the first-year apprentice's ing commission with a manpower section to wage from 40 to 55 per cent of the trades­ forecast industry's needs and plan orderly man's wage, for the second year from 55 to expansion. 65 per cent, for the third year from 75 to 85 per cent and for the fourth year from 90 The honourable member for Rockhampton to 95 per cent. These figures are published said that, because of the technological in the Queensland Government Industrial changes that are taking place, he thought Gazette of Saturday 20 October 1973. For­ the next 10 years would be frightening. I tunately the commission decided, after think they will be exciting and that members lengthy deliberation, that the percentages of this Government and this Parliament would remain as they were. should be looking forward to them with a great deal of optimism. I say this simply If honourable members looked carefully at because of the technological changes that are the history of the determination of appren­ occurring. If we are going to sit back in a tices' wages over the years, and if they were dark corner and twiddle our thumbs and honest, they would agree that there is a merely introduce renamed legislation, very reasonable and logical argument for the obviously we are not going to make anv percentages to be contained in the legisla­ great changes, and the prospects for the futur~ tion so that, in future years, pressure cannot are then frightening. I hope that this Bill 3200 Industry and Commerce (5 DECEMBER 1978] Training Bill will never get past the introductory stage. I people who have not wanted to be over­ hope that when this debate is concluded the educated. After all, there have been many Government will look very closely at the sug­ great tradesmen. Some of them haYe reached gestions that have been made so that we can high positions. I refer, for instance, to the look forward to the next 10 years with a Director-General of Education, Mr. Gilmour, great deal of optimism. who was an electrician, the Minister for Education (Mr. Bird), the member for Lvtton A manpower section is obviously needed. (Mr. Burns), the Deputy Premier and Minis­ The Minister said that 5 to 15 years should ter for Health (Dr. Edwards), and the mem­ be spent in pre-vocational training in a ber for Nudgee (Mr. Vaughan). Even the family of trades before a youngster starts member for Peak Downs was a tradesman, pre-apprenticeship training. He also men­ and what a great contribution he has made tioned the possibility of a lesser time for in this Assembly! He is alwa;s putting for­ indentures in order to allow for specialisation. ward practical suggestions. Again, I would disagree entirely with that sort of proposition, as I believe a person Very clearly, if we want to trv to over­ should know his trade fully before he starts come the unemployment position: we have to specialise. What is the use of specialising to try to expand business opportunities as in brakes and clutches if a person does not much as possible, bearing in mind that the know how an engine works or does not know small businessman has an important role to how a motor car operates? I think it would play in this State. If we lose too many of be stupid to cut down on the time of inden­ our small businessmen, which seems to be tures just to specialise. Surely a person happening, we will reach a very bad state of should know every aspect of his trade com­ pletely before he starts to specialise; that is affairs. a basic fact of learning. Mr. K. J. Hooper: This Government is As I said at the outset, I believe that this anti small businessmen; you know that. Bill would be better introduced by the Minis­ ter for Education than the Minister for Mr. LESTER: I think that would apply Labour Relations. to the Labor Party. I think that you people, with some of your initiatives, particularly (Time expired.) during the Whitlam era--

Mr. LESTER (Peak Downs) (4.18 p.m.): The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. There are three important aspects of life: Row): Order! The honourable member will what we eat, the house in which we live and address the Chair. the car we drive. Related to all those things are tradesmen and apprentices. If we look Mr. LESTER: I say that to you, Mr. at the house in which we live, we find that Row. We hear the rot that is going on the roof has been put on by a plumber, the tod~y. Members of the Labor Party are woodwork done by a carpenter, the lights saymg what a terrible man Fraser is. It installed by an electrician, the foundation all started with Whitlam; let us not kid laid by a bricklayer, the furniture built by ourselves about that. He started this rot, a cabinetmaker and the clocks assembled by and now we are trying to fix it up. We a watchmaker. Then we look at what we eat inherited a clapped-out car engine from -our bread and meat. Obviously the people Whitlam, and we are trying to repair it. who supply them-the baker and the butcher We fix up the fan belt and we bust the -are also tradesmen. Then we look at the radiator. car we drive; the glass work, the engine and Opposition Members interjected. the electronics. Obviously a large number of tradesmen have been involved in the manu­ facture of that motor vehicle. Then, if we The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! are sick, we go to see a doctor. He uses a lot There is too much cross-firing in the of equipment, and obviously a tradesman has Chamber. been involved in its manufacture. Mr. Fouras interjected. Honourable members might say, "Why on earth is he mentioning something that every­ Mr. LESTER: I was one of the members body should know?" I am mentioning it elected to Parliament mainly because of because I think that to a certain extent we Whitlam. Had he not come on the scene, are paying lip-service only to the importance I would probably still be baking bread. of trades and apprentices. I think we have to get back occasionally to basics and remem­ Mr. K. J. Hooper: Are you blaming Mr. ber what an apprenticeship is all about and Whitlam for inflicting you on the people what practical experience is gained by an of Queensland? apprentice to fit him to live a normal life. Mr. LESTER: That is one of the good In this State we clearly do not need to over­ things Mr. Whitlam did. He was able to educate people who do not wish to be over­ guide me into this place. The member for educated. I am sure that we have made a Archerfield, too, helped me. I was not catastrophic mistake in over-educating going very well in Clermont until he came Industry and Commerce [5 DECEMBER 1978) Training Bill 3201

along, and by the time he finished I Clearly, Mr. Row, the Rockhampton tech­ received two Yotes to my opponent's one. nical college is not ideal for the training of He could not even stand up to my wife. apprentices. Most sections of it are extrem­ She got stuck into him over a few callous ely cramped and old-fashioned, although some remarks that he got someone else to make. sections are reasonable. Maintenance of the She swept him out the door with a broom. buildings is almost nil; there is virtually no staff accommodation, and what there is is The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! like something out of the 18th Century. The I ask the member to concentrate on the standard all round is very poor, and I think subject-matter of the Bill. that the Minister for Works and Housing should visit Rockhampton, have a good look Mr. LESTER: I am sorry, Mr. Row, at the college and the facilities and see what but it is a fact of life, and some people can be done to assist not only the people just can't cop it. of Rockhampton but also the people from country areas who go there. Dealing with technical education-! believe that increased facilities have to be provided Mr. K. J. Hooper: Why do you keep in places like Blackwater and Emerald so picking on the city dwellers all tb time? that some of these people can get as much training on the spot as is possible. Many Mr. LESTER: I am trying to assist the businesJ people and many employers are not honourable member; I am not picking on happy with the block-release system as it is him. He would do well to try to assist me operating today, and the reasons are quite instead of behaving very irresponsibly and obvious. Young people who have been used irrationally. His attitude indicates quite to country life come to the city for the first clearly that members of the Labor Party are time. Many of them get into trouble when more interested in trying to confuse a mem­ they come down here. When they return to ber making a contribution to the debate than the country, they do not settle down; they in trying to assist people generally. I see want to come back to the city. that the honourable member for Archerfield is bowing his head now in shame and has Mr. K. J. Hooper interjected. gone very red-in fact, he is almost as red as the beetroot that I had for lunch. Mr. LESTER: The honourable member Mr. K. J. Hooper interjected. would know more about that than the apprentices. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. Mr. Vaughan: Being serious, would you Row): Order! I ask the honourable member agree that the block-release system is better for Archerfield to refrain from confusing than the correspondence course? the honourable member for Peak Downs. Mr. LESTER: I commend the staff at the Mr. LESTER: Yes and no. There are technical college in Rockhampton for the several aspects to it. Some of those aspects work they are doing, and particularly for have caused problems. Clearly we have to the assistance and advice they have given try to extend our technical services into the me in my efforts to expand courses into smaller areas. I realise that we cannot the mining areas. It is obvious that the extend them to every area, but we have college serves one of the largest industrial to try. areas in Australia, and the people of that One of the mines in Blackwater has pro­ area deserve a better go than they are now vided training facilities and is doing a good getting. I think that should be made abun­ job in trying to help the people. Without dantly clear from the floor of this Cham­ doubt, the Rockhampton technical college ber, because they are not getting a very good is one of the smallest, most cramped and go at the moment. Teachers at the Rock­ worst colleges that I have ever seen. hampton technical college should be encour­ aged to expand courses into the mining Mr. K. J. Hooper: It's none of your busi­ areas so that more adult education and tech­ ness. nical training facilities are available on the spot. Blackwater and Emerald are big Mr. LESTER: It is very much my business, enough to take some of the expanded courses, and I hope that that will be borne in mind. because many people from my electorate go I also appreciate the fact that a mine deputies there for training courses or on block release. course will be starting in the Blackwater area If the honourable member had been listening, next year, with great assistance from the staff he would know that the honourable member of the Rockhampton technical college. for Rockhampton commended me for taking an interest in the college. I have not There is not really much more that I can attempted to score on the matter; the hon­ say without repeating what other honourable ourable member for Archerfield is the one members have said, but I have appreciated who has attempted to score. I suggest that he the opportunity of making a few comments keep quiet on this matter or he will be shot on the proposed Bill and putting the honour­ down as he has been every time he has able member for Archerfield and a few of his opened his mouth in the past few minutes. mates in their place. 3202 Industry and Commerce [5 DECEMBER 1978] Training Bill

Hon. F. A. CAMPBELL (Aspley-Minister prior to apprenticeship through pre-appren­ for Labour Relations) (4.29 p.m.), in reply: I ticeship, pre-vocational and other types of thank honourable members for their contri­ off-the-job training, as now provided by the butions to the debate on this exciting new Bill, will relieve the employer of some of piece of legislation, and I appreciate the the costs complained about. commendation of the honourable member for Rockhampton North of the proposal to allow The honourable member for Isis also made the Bill to lie on the table till next session. the suggestion that block release should be I hope that when interested parties read the organised to suit the convenience of the Bill and properly research what is proposed, employer. Pressing needs are given sympa­ they will come forward with constructive thetic consideration, but I am sure that all suggestions if they believe that the Bill should honourable members appreciate the problems be altered. facing the Education Department in organ­ ising numbers for successive blocks. The honourable member for Rockhampton North said also that great care needs to be The honourable member for Nudgee taken in placing people in training. The questioned the forecast of the possibility of Government is trying to avoid shortfalls of future full-time college training and other skills in the years ahead when the economy initiatives being provided for. We will not recovers, as it surely will. be initiating anything foolhardy, and provision In common with the honourable mem­ will be made for work-bench experience in ber for Isis and the honourable member for these new initiatives. He expressed concern Peak Downs, the honourable member for about future tradesmen. One of the paradoxes Rockhampton North was somewhat critical at the present time is that, while there is of block release, particularly of the need for excessive unemploymnt, in some trades there apprentices to come to Brisbane, or perhaps is already a shortage of skilled tradesmen. to Rockhampton, Townsville, Maryborough This is a matter we are watching closely. or Bundaberg. We acknowledge the problems It could well imply that we need to revert confronting apprentices, and look forward to a migration programme. We have to to a greater decentralisation of training bear in mind that since World War H establishments. I am sure that most honour­ imported skills account for about 50 per cent able members would appreciate that block of our tradesmen. We are concerned about release, first of all, does produce better trades­ future manpower requirements, particularly men, and for those living in country areas it skilled tradesmen. That is one of the reasons overcomes the bugbear of correspondence for the introduction of this legislation. training, \vhich is a tremendous handicap to He also questioned the provision for adult apprentices living away from urban areas. training. It could be necessary to provide He queried the provision for an extension for training of adults, including the retrain­ of apprenticeships. Special provision has been ing of skilled persons to meet technological made to allow for this when it is shown by and other needs of industry as well as the examination that the apprentice needs further needs of the employers and the employees time. Shorter periods of apprenticeship will themselves. result from the recognition of pre-vocational The honourable member for Toowoomba and pre-apprenticeship training. Furthermore, North displayed a sound knowledge of trade if it is shown that an apprentice is achieving training in his area. He referred to the high levels in examinations, his indenture move towards excess tertiary training at the may be shortened by the decision of the expense of apprentices. It could rightly be relevant committee. As to his reference to said that over the past decade or so numer­ working overtime-this can be offset against ous parents yearned for their children to the period of indenture, so that full credit have a university education, which was is given for all the time worked at the calling. denied to them. I believe we are finding I thank the honourable member for his con­ the folly of that aspiration. The honourable structive approach to this important measure. member referred to the benefits of adult The honourable member for Redlands sug­ training, particularly with the provision by gested that we had lost sight of the needs the Commonwealth of subsidy in that area. of employers. I cannot agree with that. This He also made reference to extended con­ is one of the benefits of the tripartite tinuous training. approach to apprenticeship, in which all The Bill provides for flexibility in the way points of view are taken into consideration. in which block-release training will be under­ The honourable member referred to the rates taken. However, when considering this mat­ of pay of apprentices, as did the honourable ter, we have to pay attention to the stress member for Isis, saying that our rates of that a prolonged period of continuous train­ pay are the highest in Australia. I am sure ing and study could have on apprentices, that the figures given by the honourable particularly younger ones. member for Isis refuted that. In the metal trades, of course, the rates for apprentices The honourable member referred to the in Queensland are no higher than those in findings handed down so far by the Govern­ the Federal awards, and that provides a ment committee of inquiry into employment. complication. The cost of training appren­ Much worthwhile research has been done and tices during extended periods of training I am sure that it will be of great benefit in Industry and Commerce, &c., Bill [5 DECEMBER 1978] Greenvale Agreement Bill 3203 our further understanding of this problem. GREENVALE AGREEMENT BILL It is a pity that the motives of the committee have been misunderstood by the Opposition. INITIATION IN CoMMITTEE The honourable member for Rockhampton (Mr. Row, Hinchinbrook, in the chair) gave an interesting dissertation on the prob­ Hon. W. E. KNOX (Nundah-Treasurer) lems arising from technological change and (4.43 p.m.): I move- the need to take appropriate measures to overcome them. "That a Bill be introduced to authorize the making of agreements between the The honourable member for Isis was State of Queensland and others amending unhappy about the replacement of the the agreements made pursuant to the Apprenticeship Executive by the com­ Greenvale Agreement Act 1977 and for mission. I do not share his views. In view of other purposes." the widespread nature of trade training, with In recent months I have referred to the so many diverse callings and the many new Greenvale nickel project as my greatest initiatives called for in this legislation, I single worry as Treasurer. Bearing in mind believe that the membership of the com­ the political events which have overtaken mission equates with the responsibilities that me in the same period, this might seem will be placed on it by the legislation. I strange. However, this Bill represents a have already referred to his comments long-term assault on the problems facing regarding the cost of training apprentices. Greenvale and thus the solution olf my greatest single worry. Measured against He made reference to the cost of tools of the important social and economic benefits trade. The present Act provides for the arising out of a project such as Greenvale, supply of tools of trade; it does not provide I regard my personal political fortunes as for the payment of tool allowances. The being oJ little consequence. honourable member claimed that the present When I visited the mining centre of executive is merely being renamed. Far Greenvale and the treatment plant at Yabulu, from it! The initiatives contained in the near Towns,ville, some days ago, I was deeply legislation will disprove his claim. struck by the intensity of questioning I received at the hands of mine workers. From Finally, the honourable member for Peak the shop floor to the mine face, the workers Downs, like the honourable member for are very well acquainted with the precarious Rockhampton, referred to the poor standard nature of the world nickel market, increases of facilities at the Rockhampton technical in fuel prices and the relationships between college. As well, he renewed his plea for lenders to the project. They devour every such a college on the Central Queensland piece of news served up to them with regard coalfields. to the Greenvale project, and in the past I want to conclude by paying a tribute to months much of that news has been bad. In fact, I believe that almost every major ex-Commissioner Anderson for the pains­ newspaper in Australia at one time or another taking work that he did in discharging the this year has completely written off the obligation conferred upon him with his Greenvale project. This war of nerves has appointment as head of the commission of caused further problems for workers at inquiry into apprenticeship. We were for­ Greenvale. They found they could not tunate indeed to have a man of his calibre borrow money and they were regarded by and understanding of the problems arising some businesses as bad risks. With all the in this very important social matter. I doubt benefit of hindsight, some southern financial whether anyone could have delved into the writers questioned the very existence of Greenvale. Why get involved in a massive various aspects of apprenticeship as Mr. project which can be affected by fluctuations Anderson did. Unfortunately, time does not in world nickel and oil prices, they argued? permit me to refer to all of the matters into which he inquired. I am sure that there There is no denying that, to some extent, is no aspect of apprenticeship training that Greenvale is a gamble, but no more a gamble is not covered by his report. I again say than any other major industrial or pastoral that we appreciate the work done by Mr. project. It is the sort of gamble which led our forefathers to come to Australia in the Anderson, the comprehensive nature of the first place. It is the essence of Australia's inquiry and the fine report that he presented history and the hope for this nation's future. to us entitled, "The Report of the Com­ mission of Inquiry into Apprenticeship". Without courage and foresight, Queens­ land and Australia will be forced to look on Motion (Mr. Campbell) agreed to. from the wings while South East Asia marches forward into the 21st century. Resolution reported. Establishing projects such as Greenvale, with a high labour content, takes courage as well FIRST READING as cash. Bill presented and, on motion of Mr. The project is efficient and pays its way Campbell, read a first time. from an operational point of view. The two 3204 Greenvale Agreement Bill [5 DECEMBER 1978] Greenvale Agreement Bill

financial restructuring programmes which Greenvale cost $286,000,000 to construct have taken place in the past, and the third and, with accumulations of interest, the pro­ which this Bill foreshadows, were aimed at ject's debt is now in the order of $350,000,000. encouraging the lenders to stay with it. The lenders to the project include banks and companies from Australia, Japan, America The purpose of the Bill is to authorise the and 'Nest Germany. The joint venturers making of ,two agreements as part of the contributed some $56,000,000 by way of Greenvale nickel project rescue. There is equity and have made substantial additional an agreement in respect of each of the two contributions by way of subordinated loans venture companies. The agreements are to and advances. be between the State, each of the two joint venture companies and all of the lenders. When the venture was investigated and put The agreements are to vary the debt-restruc­ to the Government prior to commencement turing deeds which were entered into pur­ of the project, its prospects for success were suant to the Greenvale Agreement Act 1977. very bright. The companies had long-term These deeds set out the State's obligations contracts for sale of most of the planned under the debt-restructuring arrangement production and the future of the world nickel agreed to in early 1977. The proposed market appeared satisfactory. The Queens­ variations to such obligations give effect to land Government stood to gain directly by the State's part in a proposed new debt­ way of revenue from royalties and profits on restructuring scheme which has been made rail haul. The project was to make a necessary by the further deterioration in tremendous contribution to employment and nickel prices during 1977 and 1978. industrial growth. Honourable members will recall that I Because of its long-term potential benefit have already provided a considerable amount to Queensland, the State Government initially of information on the background to the agreed to assist with the very large financing Greenvale nickel project. I outlined the needs of the project. It guaranteed repay­ reasons for the need for a further restructur­ ments of principal and interest to 8 per cent ing of the project's debt and details of the per annum on loans totalling $50,000,000 proposed restructuring plan itself in two towards the total expected project cost of recent ministerial statements to Parliament. $223,000,000. Due to the very high level of The first was on 14 November. This was cost inflation during the construction period, after my return from overseas, where I had however, the final cost was around had discus&ions aimed at ensuring that all $286,000,000, and the Government agreed lenders would agree to the plan. The second to guarantee loans totalling an additional was on 29 November, when I reported that $20,000,000 from various Australian institu­ advice had been received from the Japanese tions. lenders that they had finally agreed to the proposed restructuring arrangements. The project has been plagued by financial problems since it commenced operations. The On this occasion I will review the back­ three major factors have been: firstly, the ground again. The Greenvale nickel project prolonged and serious depression in the world is the first commercial venture in Australia nickel market; secondly, the unprecedented to mine and process lateritic nickel ores. level of cost inflation during the construction Until recently, most of ,the world's supply of phase; and, thirdly, the drastic increases in nickel has come from sulphide ore deposits oil prices which have occurred since the located mainly in Canada and Russia. But project got under way. producers are now looking towards lateritic deposits, such as those being mined at Green­ On two previous occasions-in 1975 and vale, as a major source of world nickel in 1977-lenders have agreed to debt-restruc­ the future. turing arrangements designed to continue the project in operation despite its inability to The project consists of a mine at Green­ meet normal debt-servicing commitments. On vale, 175 km west of Townsville, a connect­ each occasion the Queensland Government ing 225 km railway and a treatment plant has been involved, both by virtue of its at Yabulu, 22 km north of Townsville. It existing guarantees on part of the project's is operated as a 50/50 joint venture by debt and because of its determination to Freeport Queensland Nickel, a subsidiary of protect the future of the project. Freeport Minerals Company of the U.S.A., and Metals Exploration Queensland which I have set out details of the two previous is 100 per cent owned by the Australian restructuring arrangements, together with company, Metals Exploration Ltd. payments made by the State and the current guarantee position, and, as they are most It employs some I ,200 people directly and involved and complicated, I ask that they be is indirectly responsible for a further 3,000 incorporated in "Hansard". jobs. It has made a major contribution to decentralised employment and industrial (Leave granted.) growth in North Queensland. Based on average prices for the last six months, nickel 1975 Restructuring valued at $74,000,000 and cobalt worth $26,000,000 is exported by the project In 1975, lenders agreed to defer until annually. various dates into the 1980s all principal Greenvale Agreement Bill [5 DECEMBER 1978] Greenvale Agreement Bill 3205 payments due in 1976, 1977 and 1978 and all from the first quarter of 1977. All lenders, interest payments due over the seven quarters the joint venturers and the Government got to 31 December, 1977. together in late 1976 and early 1977. At this time, Freeport injected a further They eventually agreed that from 1977 to $10,000,000 of their own funds and Metals 1985 inclusive, the project would be required Ex. $1,200,000, and the lenders advanced to meet whatever debt it could and would a further $7,000,000 which was guaranteed by be free from being placed into default if it the Queensland Government. met 30 per cent of scheduled debt commit­ ments each quarter during 1977, 1978 and In addition, the Government guaranteed 1979 and 50 per cent thereafter. the payment of interest at 10! per cent per annum on those interest payments, deferred Lenders also accepted the venturers argu­ under the arrangements, which had been ments that if interest continued to build up previously guaranteed. on all postponed debt, the venturers would be unlikely to ever have any hope of a divi­ The Queensland Government's total guar­ dend from the project and there would be no antee commitment amounted to $77,000,000 incentive for the venturers to continue their principal, plus $9,800,000 deferred interest, efforts to manage and achieve the best together with interest on the $77,000,000 and possible results from the project. The lenders interest on $12,746,036 at 101; per cent per therefore agreed that no interest would annum. accrue over the nine-year period from 1 In addition, some $2,900,000 is owed by the January 1977, on any interest postponed project to guaranteed lenders, but is not under the 1977 arrangements or deferred guaranteed. The State's guarantee at this under the 1975 arrangements. stage thus totalled $86,800,000, comprising principal and deferred interest. This repre­ Any debt payments which are not met when sents 25.2 per cent of the project's total scheduled are to be postponed and paid in debt commitment at that time of $344,800,000 any future quarter if sufficient cash is avail­ (at present exchange rates), the remainder able to meet more than the debt schedule being owed to unguaranteed lenders as fol­ in that quarter. lows:- Flowing from their guarantee commit­ Lenders Amount o/o ments, the Queensland Government agreed Outstanding of to make good to the guaranteed lenders by ($ Australian Total way of cash payments any scheduled prin­ Equivalent at cipal and interest (to the extent guaranteed) present exchange which is postponed under these arrangements. Rates) The Queensland Government then is $M entitled to stand in the shoes of the guar­ Senior anteed lenders to receive any cash available Queensland Government from the project in respect of postponements guarantee 86.8 25.2 which it has made good to such lenders. Lenders under guarantee It will receive interest on its payments in -unguaranteed portion 2.9 0.8 respect of principal postponements. Kreditanstalt Fur All the lenders agree to waive interest Wiederaufbau (West accruing from the project between 1 January Germany) 114.8 33.3 1977 and 31 December 1985 on interest which United States Export was deferred under the 1975 arrangements. Import Bank 17.7 5.1 However, the State had guaranteed this to ANZ Banking Group Ltd the guaranteed lenders. The State therefore (unguaranteed portion) 32.7 9.5 agreed to make payments to the guaranteed Australian Resources lenders in respect of it. Because the lenders Development Bank have waived the amounts under the arrange­ (unguaranteed portion) 2.3 0.7 ments, the amounts are irrecoverable. They will total approximately $11,600,000 including Subordinated interest up to the date of payment by the Japanese 73.6 21.3 State. They will not have to be paid by Freeport 2.0 0.6 the State until 1981 and later, and mainly Metals Ex Ltd. 2.0 0.6 over the years 1986 to 1988. Additional Owners' Advances Freeport 8.8 2.6 Metals Ex Ltd. 1.2 0.3 Payments by the State to date During all but one of the seven quarters 344.8 100.00 in which the 1977 arrangements have been in operation, the project has been able to meet only the minimum 30 per cent of the 1977 Restructuring scheduled interest payments. Accordingly, Because of the continued depression in the Queensland Government has made pay­ nickel prices, coupled with cost increases and ments to the guaranteed Australian institu­ other problems, the project had no hope of tions totalling $896,640 in 1976-77, and meeting interest payments falling due as $4,192,984 in 1977-78, and has provided for 3206 Greenvale Agreement Bill [5 DECEMBER 1978] Greenvale Agreement Bill

payments of the order of $5,000,000 in 1978- The producer price for cobalt rose from 79. All of these payments are recoverable US$6.50 per lb. to US$6.85 in late 1977, by the State from the project in future, and then proceeded through a series of should sufficient cash be generated. spectacular rises to its present level of US$20 per lb. Nevertheless, the project is in a substantially worse position than it Current guarantee position-30 June 1978 was two years ago, because the hoped-for The figure of $86,800,000 set out in the rise in nickel prices has not occurred. previous table was the total sum guaranteed It is now certain that the project will be after the 197 5 restructure. Since then, a unable to meet the 30 per cent minimum further $5,000,000 has accrued to 30 June scheduled debt payments from the first 1978, being interest on interest deferred quarter of 1979, when principal payments under the 1975 arrangement and on the commence to fall due. Also, the joint additional $7,000,000 guaranteed at that time. venturers see no hope whatsoever for them Thus the complete guarantee picture as at to obtain any dividends from the project 30 June 1978, is as follows:- without further amendments to the debt A.M.P. Society $23,231,991.18 payment arrangements, even with the con­ Intermarine Australia Ltd. $8,222,667.54 cessions granted by lenders in 1977. In M.L.C. Assurance Co. Ltd. $10,398,088.07 order to save the project, it was decided Chase-N.B.A. Bank $6,184,567.90 to devise a further, long-term restructuring of financial arrangements. The points of this Euro-Pacific Finance Cor- were agreed to by most senior lenders and poration Ltd. $6,021,856.42 the joint venturers at a meeting in New T. & G. Mutual Life Society Orleans earlier this year. However, the Ltd. $7,341,131.08 Japanese lenders at that stage withheld their National Mutual Life consent. At one stage, in fact, we received Association $2,443,348.44 messages from Japan indicating that talks Prudential Assurance Co. on the issue between the Japanese lenders Ltd. $3,670,565.54 and Japanese Government had broken down. State Government Insurance This required an urgent visit by myself Office (Queensland) $3,353,188.30 to Tokyo in October. With the aid of Colonial Mutual Life Assur­ Federal Government officers, I was able to ance Society Ltd. $2,446,451.64 arrange meetings with Japanese Government Commercial nominees $471,418.73 officials and get the parties talking once Gas and Fuel Corporation again. I returned to Tokyo three weeks Super Fund $612,056.96 later for more talks, and at the end of A.N.Z. Banking Group $10,039,021.37 these was assured that agreement was a Australian Resources formality. We have since received advice from the Japanese lenders that all their Development Bank $2,540,689.22 boards have agreed to the new restructuring U.S. Export-Import Bank $573,264.00 programme. The new agreement involves Kreditanstalt Fur Wieder­ a continuation of the basic principles aufbau $2,887,552.00 embodied in the existing arrangements but Japanese lenders $1,555,244.00 with variations to certain aspects. The major changes are- $91,993,102.33 (a) a substantial reduction in the mmJ­ mum debt-servicing amount that the project Proposed ne'w arrangements must meet, thus allowing it to proceed on very low debt-servicing particularly The 1977 arrangements were proceeded over the next crucial few years, without with in the hope that nickel prices would fear of being placed in default: soon commence to improve. However, the nickel market has in fact deteriorated during In lieu of the figures of 30 per cent 1977 and 1978. Whereas the average price and 50 per cent mentioned in the being received by the project in late 1976 details tabled, the project will not be and early 1977 was a little over US$2.05 liable to be placed in default for as long per lb. for nickel contained in the Greenvale as it meets the following minimum product, this average price is now down to proportions of debt service payments around US$1.80 per lb. scheduled each year: 5 per cent for each of the years Fortunately, against this, the price being 1978-1980 obtained for cobalt rose substantially during 20 per cent for each of the years the year. The very much higher earnings 1981-1983 from cobalt to a large extent offset the effects 25 per cent for each of the years of the reduction in the nickel price. 1984-1986 Mr. Houston: What is the relationship of 30 per cent for each of the years the outlook between the two? 1987 to end of arrangement. Even if these amounts are unable to Mr. KNOX: I cannot tell the honourable be met, the project will not be placed member offhand, but I will find out. in default unless 65 per cent of lenders Greenvale Agreement Bill [5 DECEMBER 1978] Greenvale Agreement Bill 3207

desire that it be so placed during the which the project finds itself in, the arrange­ period to the end of 1985, and there­ ment now proposed gives the project the best after unless 50 per cent of lenders possible chance of success. The project desire default. lenders and the Queensland Government are (b) A sharing of the surplus cash gener­ agreed that it gives them the best chance ated with the joint venturers before full of retrieving their debt entitlements. debt-servicing is met. The extent of this It will be able to continue in the long-term sharing is as follows- operating at full capacity, continuing its most important contribution to employment and Surplus Cash Lenders Venturers prosperity in Queensland. This is now assured, providing the nickel price does not slump First $100,000,000 $100,000,000 Nil even further to the extent that operating costs cannot be covered. Second $100,000,000 $90,000,000 $! 0,000,000 Third $! OO,OOO,OUO .. $85,000,000 $15,000,000 In this context, I feel that it is necessary to mention the potentially very serious effect Fourth $! 00,000,000 $75,000,000 $25,000,000 on the project's viability of the Common­ Fifth and Subsequent wealth Government's recent decision to $100,000,000 $65,000,000 $35,000,000 immediately increase the price of domestic crude oil to world parity. The joint ventur­ Mr. Houston: Would that be much differ­ ers had indicated that thev were confident ent from the operating profit? that provided there are no further significant reductions in nickel prices or large increases Mr. KNOX: This refers to cash. That is in major cost items, the project could con­ altogether different. tinue to cowr it~ operating costs over the next few years e,·en without substantial nickel Mr. Houston: What would be the relation­ price rises. ship? However, the Commonwealth's oil price Mr. KNOX: I cannot tell the honourable decision has added substantially to the pro­ member offhand, because no-one will know ject's recurrent costs. It has greatly reduced until the event occurs. the project's ability to withstand any additional problems and has come at the Mr. Houston: What is your surplus cash worst possible time for the project. The balance? project operators have applied to the Com­ monwealth Government for relief from this Mr. KNOX: The surplus cash is that above additional impost over the next few crucial what is required to maintain the operation. years. I have every confidence that the Does the honourable member think it would Commonwealth will view this application be otherwise? They have to be able to meet their day-to-day commitments. The surplus favourably and not allow this untimely has to be distributed. additional tax to cause the project to falter now, after the tremendous effort that has The venturers thus have a strong incentive to apply maximum effort to been put in by so many parties over a long ensuring that as much cash as possible is period of time to ensure its survival. generated and paid to lenders. They It shonld be emphasised that, apart from have also undertaken to do their best to the cash-sharing with the venturers, which seek out new economic sources of ore almost certainlv will not occur for some to feed to the Yabulu treatment plant, years, the ne\v arrangements will not in thus extending the project's life beyond themselves result in additional costs for the that of the Greenvale ore body. lenders and the Queensland Government. The (c) Whereas the 1977 arrangements project will continue to pay to lenders what­ expired on 31 December 1985, the new ever cash it is able to generate, and there proposals are planned to continue past have been no waivers of interest on postpone­ 1990. Thus the proposed arrangements will ments past the 1985 limit that was provided enable greater confidences in the project's for in the 1977 arrangements. The lower stability in the long-term, by employees and minimum debt-service requirements reflect customers and all persons who deal with the lenders' and the Queensland Government's it, as well as the Queensland Government recognition of the realities of the project's and the joint venturers. debt repayment abilities. These represent the three basic principles Once again I would like to say how encour­ involved in the new arrangements. They aging it has been that the major international seek to ensure that the project can continue lenders to the project, whose loans are not to operate in the long-term without the con­ subject to the State's guarantee, have decided tinual fear of default, and that conditions to support the restructuring plan and keep will exist for maximum effort from all con­ the project in operation. I am also confident cerned to strive to get the best possible that those responsible for operating the pro­ results from the project. I am convinced ject will pursue the task of achieving top that, given the disappointing financial position results from it with enthusiasm and ability. 3208 Greenvale Agreement Bill [5 DECEMBER 1978] Greenvale Agreement Bill

The whole arrangement now has the unani­ nickel, its use, its possible pricing, and the mous approval of all lenders and the ventur­ world domination by international companies ers except for a matter of voting powers of its mining, processing and sale. under clause 26, which is still under discus­ sion with the A.N.Z. Bank. The agreement was one that was made between the Government of Queensland, I commend to the Committee the Bill Metals Exploration Queensland Pty. Ltd. and which will authorise the Honourable the Freeport Queensland Nickel Inc. On that Premier to make the agreements with the occasion the Premier said that the agreement joint venturers and the lenders, and thereby was "another milestone in the State's history ensure the continued operation of the Green­ of unprecedented development over the past vale nickel project. 13 years." Notice the propaganda in that statement! In 1970, the present Govern­ Mr. HOUSTON (Bulimba) (5.2 p.m.): Biils ment had been in power for 13 years. The to amend the Greenvale Agreement Act have Premier's speech commenced with that pro­ become almost an annual event. Virtually paganda. More important was his state­ every year since 1970 an amending Bill has ment- been before this Assembly, and as the orig­ "A preliminary examination of the finan­ inal legislation lays down that the agreement cial prospects of the companies' opera­ can be amended by Order in Council, the Act tions has been made by the Government, has also been amended by that method on and no doubts are held as to the sound­ occasions. ness of the venture. Indeed, the Govern-· ment's claim for a higher State return Mr. Scott: Biii Knox won't be here next than the companies were then prepared year, though. to accept was based on our assessment of very substantial profits arising out of Mr. HOUSTON: There will be another the venture." Treasurer. The original Bill was introduced by the Premier on 8 December 1970 as one No doubt that statement persuaded the public of the great examples of State development, to accept the agreement, and it certainly and one of the things that worries me about persuaded this Assembly to accept it. As a the last statement by the Treasurer is that member of Parliament at that time, I was we are giving the Premier power to come persuaded not to look for doubts about the into the agreement. operations of the companies. The only doubt we had then-a very valid doubt then, and As far as Parliament is concerned, one of one that is even more valid today-was the the tragedies is that the agreement is already proposed use of oil as the major fuel. On an accomplished fact when it comes before that occasion we argued that because of honourable members. In fact, the original Queensland's abundance of coal the project Bill v.as introduced on 8 December 1970 and should have been based on coal. In 1970 the second reading and Committee stages we had no great market for our steaming were completed the very next day. I recall coal; we had no great market for any coal at that when members of the Opposition that time. The Opposition then asked that attempted to suggest amendments to the Bill, the project be further looked at with a they were told, "No, you can't amend it. view to using coal instead of oil. At that The agreement has already been signed. time anyone who was taking any notice of All this Bill is doing is ratifying something international affairs and watching develop­ that has happened." In my opinion, the ments in the Arab States and other oil-pro­ whole concept is wrong, and the Government ducing countries would have known that the will continue to get itself into trouble as oil market was in an explosive state and that long as that concept is adopted. it was only a matter of time before the oil­ producing countries decided that they would I was interested to hear the Treasurer take a firmer grip on oil prices. Without restate all the things that were said in 1977, going back into history we know exactly 1975 and back over the years. No matter what has happened. In December 1970 there which Minister introduced Bills to amend the was no great opportunity for any honourable Greenvale Agreement Act from time to time, member to study the ramifications of the he told the same old story. When the agreement, because the Bill was introduced Treasurer concluded his introductory speech one day, and the next day the second-reading by saying that he had every confidence, I and Committee stages were rushed through. think he would have been justified on this occasion in pausing and saying, "I hope", The legislation was introduced in Decem­ because confidence has been expressed time ber 1970 and amended in March 1971. Under after time. its regulation-making powers the Govern­ ment further changed the project. Although Let us look, Mr. Hewitt, at some of the the agreement was not changed in a major statements made by the Premier w·hen intro­ way, certainly there was a tightening up of ducing the Greenvale Agreement Bill in 1970. the agreement. Originally the Government's I suggest that many of the statements he commitment by way of guarantee was made then were purely propaganda. $43,000,000. By the end of 1971 it had Obviously, the project had not been looked increased its guarantee to $50,000,000 on a at in the light of the hard facts relating to capital expenditure of $223,000,000. After Greenvale Agreement Bill [5 DECEMBER 1978] Greenvale Agreement Bill 3209 the legislation again came before the The high price of oil, of course, is some­ Assembly in 1974, the Government's com­ thing that the company would not have been mitment was $70,000,000 on an expenditure able to forecast. The present Federal Gov­ of $286,000,000. The legislation was again ernment viciously imposed added fuel costs amended in 1975 and 1977. on industry. I should imagine that the Greenvale project would be a major user of If things do not go right and the project industrial oils. The Fraser Government has closes down, the State Government could an obligation to assist Greenvale, but instead be up for $86,000,000 or more. Of course, of doing that, it chooses to throw all assist­ that does not cover the special arrangements ance on the shoulders of the State Govern­ made in the 1975 and 1977 agreements. ment. It could easily come to the party by Naturaliy, no-one wants to see the project granting concessions in oil prices. close down. A large number of people were encouraged to live and work in that area. If The Treasurer mentioned the repayment anything goes wrong with the project, many programme. That is a matter that could be of those employees would find it very diffi­ left to the second-reading stage, by which cult to obtain employment elsewhere. time honourable members will be in pos­ session of all the figures. The Treasurer Manv reasons have been given for the read them so quickly that I could not take failure· of the project to become the trem­ them down. It is obvious that the project endous financial success that the Premier will depend over the years on increased told us in 1970 it would become. Its failure profitability. has been blamed partly on inflation. I would point out that inflation affected many Over the past two years the project has companies throughout the nation and that lost money. I believe it is fair to state that they were able to weather the storm. its accumulated operating losses amount to $35,000,000. I understand that at least The failure has been blamed also on low $20,000,000 a year remains to be paid by nickel prices. As far back as the early 'way of interest. So, in addition to making 1970s it was known that the price of nickel a profit from its commercial operations, was low. As the Treasurer said today, since the project has to earn sufficient money to 1976-77, it has dropped from $US2.05 to cover the interest repayments that eventu­ $US1.80 per lb. ally have to be made if the project is to remain solvent. I am sure that, in spite of the fact that the Liberal and National Parties condemn I believe that the Minister played with strikes and any action taken by workers to words when he talked about surplus cash. obtain a better deal, they will agree that the When I asked him to give the definition of Greenvale project stands to gain from a surplus cash, he said that he was only pre­ prolonging of the strike at Inco in Canada. pared to say that it was not the same as If that strike extends till March of next operating profit. In one sense I do not year, it could have a marked effect on the suppose that it would be, but in another world price of nickel. It would bring about a sense, if we are talking about surplus cash, shortage of nickel on world markets or cer­ it would be interesting to know whether it tainly at least reduce the surpluses. That is a daily, weekly, monthly or yearly surplus. would bring about a rise in price, which It would depend on commitments that the would be to the advantage of Greenvale. company has to meet. For instance, it would The project would also benefit from a have to pay taxes and meet certain charges more widespread use of nickel. For almost made by the local authority. Surplus cash 30 or 40 years, scientists have talked about can be entirely different from cash flow; it the use of a nickel battery. In fact, in the can also be entirely different from operating days when I taught subjects associated with profit. We want a much clearer definition the electrical trade, students were made of surplus cash, particularly as that is to be aware of the possibilities. However, at that the basis of repayment to the lenders. I time the high cost of development of a ask the Treasurer to give us a lot more nickel battery went against it. Perhaps with information so that we may have a clearer the present low price of nickel the use of understanding of it. a nickel battery would be an economic proposition. Even a doubling in price would The agreement has been made and if it not make the use of the nickel battery fails the Government will be up for nearly uneconomic. $100,000,000 in guarantees. The State's financial position will be seriously affected. Mr. Moore: Nickel has too low a dis­ If that sum is taken out of circulation over charge. two or three years-even if special loans are obtained-it will have to be paid back. Mr. HOUSTON: That is not so. A nickel We should also keep in mind that the battery could operate most efficiently in the Australian equity in the companies lending electronic circuits that are produced today money to finance the nickel project is quite with low-resistance materials. I think the substantial. The German Government Bank honourable member, on reflection, would has contributed $81,000,000 by way of loan agree that it is a possibility. It is a case to the projects, the Japanese traders and of the teacher telling the pupil. banks have contributed $48,000,000, the 3210 Greenvale Agreement Bill [5 DECEMBER 1978] Greenvale Agreement Bill

A.N.Z. Bank $30,000,000, the U.S. Export I shall now deal with some of the questions Import Bank/Chase Manhattan $16,000,000, that the honourable member has raised. He making a total of $175,000,000 against a mentioned surplus cash. I think that this was project cost of well over $200,000,000. The clear in the arrangements made in 1977. remainder of the money came from Aust­ Under those arrangements, there is a need ralian financial organisations which, in the to ensure that $10,000,000 is av;ailable in main, are handling public money. cash at any time, so that has to be allowed for. Surpluses in addition to that are pro­ If the project goes broke, and cannot be vided for the normal debt-servicing amounts carried on, money will have to be forth­ and they are calculated quarterly. That was coming from other than the State Govern­ the arrangement in 1977. It is beholden on ment. If anything goes wrong, many little the project to have $10,000,000 in cash at people associated with our financial institu­ any one time and surpluses above that are tions involved in the project will be affected. to be available for debt-servicing. It is not As policy-holders with insurance companies, related to operating profits at all. It is not we can start asking who involved the insur­ an operating profit that we are talking about. ance companies in the project and who was responsible for persuading them that it was Mr. Houston: They could hardly have a very good project in which to invest surplus cash if they were not making a profit, moneys? could they? According to a Press report in the Mr. KNOX: There is no profit at this "Telegraph" of 12 January 1978, apart from stage. the Australian Reserve Bank, the follow­ ing insurance companies are involved: the Mr. Houston: They are operating against A.M.P., the T. & G., the M.L.C., the the charges? I am not referring to the Prudential, the National Mutual, the C.M.L., charges. and our own S.G.I.O. A good deal of policy­ holders' money is involved in those insurance Mr. KNOX: Yes, the normal, everyday companies. A large number of people have charges of staying in existence. The cash been looking on Greenvale purely and simply then goes to debt-servicing, interest and as a company in North Queensland pro­ redemption. viding work for men and women. I think it goes further than that. Through its borrow­ The honourable member asked me about ings, it is also a company that has the the relationship between nickel and cobalt money of the policy-holders of practically all production. I am sorry, but I cannot give it of the major insurance companies operating in pounds or kilograms. However, in my in this nation and certainly in this State. speech, I pointed out that the revenue from nickel was $74,000,000 and from cobalt Other organisations that were mentioned $26,000,000, so the revenue ratio is 3:1. in this report are Patrick Intermarine, Chase NBA, Gas and Fuel Super Fund and Euro Mr. Houston: On the financial side? Pacific. Again, superannuation fund money is policy-holders' money. All in all, when we Mr. KNOX: I could find out the weight at a later date. talk about the Greenvale project and the desire to keep it going, we have to consider He referred to the use of oil against coal. not only the welfare of the workers but also This has been mentioned previously. It was the investments of the people who are mentioned on the last occasion that we policy-holders in the various insurance com­ debated this legislation. I expect that with panies. hindsight we can all be wise. I do not know at this stage how much it would cost to I dare say that the amount of money convert the plant to coal, but it would prob­ invested by these companies is quite sub­ ably be in excess of $40,000,000. stantial. If we take ,the known amount from the amount of $286,000,000 that the company Mr. Houston: To go into coal? It was was using in 1974, we can see that quite a only $20,000,000 in 1977. substantial amount of Australian money is involved. I was quite surprised at reading Mr. KNOX: At this stage I'd say it could during the progress of the negotiations that be in excess of $40,000,000. at no stage were the Australian companies mentioned. Mr. Houston: Doubled in one year? (Time expired.) Mr. KNOX: I am not being precise. Mr. Burns: In 1975 Sir Gordon Chalk said Hon. W. E. KNOX (Nundah-Treasurer) $10,000,000, so if we had made the move (5.22 p.m.), in reply: I appreciate the at that time we would have been well in interest and, I think, the support of the hon­ front. ourable member for Bulimba. I would like to examine closely the details put before the Mr. KNOX: I do not think honourable Committee today before I make any further members opposite would question that it is a statements. very substantial amount of money. Greenvale Agreement Bill [5 DECEMBER 1978] Greenvale Agreement Bill 3211

Mr. Burns: In 1975 he said he would There is one trader, though, that is making talk to the people in Chicago about it. reasonable profits. That trader, of course, is the Nippon Mining Company, which is get­ Mr. KNOX: All I can tell the honourable ting most, if not all, of the cobalt from this member is that I have had discussions with project at the present time. But just as the the Commonwealth about this matter cobalt has come good in a very short time­ because we are trying to get assistance for and let us hope it continues-so too might the project which is in difficulty following nickel. When the lenders are prepared to the increase in the price of oil and then the make these concessions lasting over some raising of the price of Australian oil to world 12 or 13 years, and are prepared to wait and parity levels through the Commonwealth tax. make sacrifices in the process, I think it is The cost of conversion at this stage is of the not unreasonable for the Queensland Gov­ order of $40,000,000. Even if it were ernment to also share that confidence in the $30,000,000, and I am not going to question project's future. the amount, somebody has to find those funds and obviously the lenders are not going Mr. Burns: In your study of this pro­ to provide them. posal have you had a look at the question of the Guatemalan and Indonesian plants Mr. Bums: It would save about $2,000,000 that have come on line? Will they have or $3,000,000 a year in fuel bills. much effect on Greenvale?

Mr. KNOX: Because of present commit­ Mr. KNOX: I am not too sure about the ments, that is not certain at this stage. future of those projects. Some of the people interested in Greenvale are also interested As to the price of nickel in the future in them. As the honourable member knows, who is to know what it will be? We hav~ there are all sorts of technical and political seen nickel prices sky-rocket. Just before difficulties in those countries. One of the we got this project off the ground, we saw things that came through loud and clear fantastic nickel prices around the world. from the lenders around the world was that Because of political instability in Africa, we they were very impressed by Australia's have seen cobalt prices increase substantially stability. I am talking about the economic over the last 12 months. \Ve see now, as the and political stability of this country now, honourable member has mentioned, a pro­ not about the political parties. longed strike at Inco in Canada, which shows every indication of going well into next Mr. Houston: They do not believe the year. propaganda you put out against the Labor Party. Mr. Houston: Are you on the workers' side? Mr. KNOX: We did not discuss politics. We discussed the economy and the future role Mr. KNOX: They have a $100,000,000 strike fund. that this country will play in the economy of the world. All I can say to the honourable Mr. Bums: Only because of their negot­ member is that no matter where we went, iating process. the lenders had great confidence in this country. They certainly have great confid­ ence in our ability to honour our obligations. Mr. KNOX: Is that right? Whatever it is, They feel that this is one of the stable areas they do not seem to be terribly anxious to get of the world in which investment has a back to work. reasonable chance of producing dividends and The question of the use of nickel batteries returns. Having expressed that confidence has, of course, been well canvassed round in us, I think it should be reflected by this the world with the prospect of electric cars. Parliament's supporting the ratification of Let us hope that they become a reality. these agreements. Quite a number of people are experimenting in this area, and if this comes off, of course, There were considerable difficulties with nickel will come into its own, as the the Japanese situation. Most of them were honourable member suggests. There are all domestic matters concerning Japanese traders, sorts of uncertainties. All I can say is that Japanese lenders and Japanese Government the lenders-and I met many of them round agencies. It was very important that they the world, including a lot who are not get together. I can assure honourable mem­ mentioned in the principal list but who have bers that if I had not gone to Tokyo in the a subordinate role in some respect or another first instance with the officers of the Treasury -are all anxious to see the project continue. Department, this matter would not have pro­ The only people who have had worries are gressed to the stage it has reached today the traders. Naturally enough, as traders because, in fact, very little, if anything, had taking the product from Greenvale are not been done to resolve those differences and getting the benefits they thought originally problems. I am pleased to say that they they would obtain because of their long­ have now been satisfactorily resolved. term contracts, they feel concerned about Motion (Mr. Knox) agreed to. their loss situation. Quite a number of traders are incurring losses on this operation. Resolution reported. 3212 Medical Act [5 DECEMBER 1978] Amendment Bill

FIRST READING machinery nature and are similar to pro­ Bill presented and, on motion of Mr. visions contained in other registration Acts Knox, read a first time. administered, subject to the Minister for Health, by boards. I commend the motion to the Committee.

WITHDRAWAL OF NOTICE OF MOTION Mr. D'ARCY (Woodridge) (5.36 p.m.): Although the Bill has been brought on in MEDICAL AcT AMENDMENT BILL some haste, it appears to provide only for Hon. L. R. EDWARDS (Ipswich-Deputy a machinery amendment to the Act. Premier and Minister for Health) (5.33 p.m.): I should like to make a few comments I seek leave of the House to withdraw the about the Medical Board of Queensland. notice of motion given by me this morning Members of the Opposition think that any concerning the Medical Act Amendment Bill. increase in the number on the Medical Board would be an advantage, and probably the (Leave granted.) Minister is doing the right thing in giving the board power to bring in advisers in various fields. I commend to the Minister the appointment to the Medical Board of a MEDICAL ACT AMENDMENT BILL consumers' representative. In their elector­ ates, members of Parliament receive many INITIATION complaints about doctors in hospitals and also doctors in private practice. As doctors Hon. L. R. EDWARDS (Ipswich-Deputy are subject to the Medical Board of Queens­ Premier and Minister for Health), by leave, land, other members of the Opposition and without notice: I move- I believe that ordinary Queenslanders should "That the House will, at its present have a representative on the board, and I sitting, resolve itself into a Committee of am sure that the people of this State would the Whole to consider introducing a Bill to support such an appointment. Although amend the Medical Act 1939-1976 in many of the complaints that we receive certain particulars." about doctors are frivolous, some of them are based on fact, and I think it is time Motion agreed to. that the Minister considered having a con­ sumers' representative on the board. The Minister mentioned that the advisers INITIATION IN COMMITTEE to the board would be covered for allow­ ances and out-of-pocket expenses connected (The Chairman of Committees, Mr. W. D. with their work and their travel. He has not Hewitt, Greenslopes, in the chair) outlined in great detail what the job of Hon. L. R. EDWARDS (Ipswich-Deputy the advisers will be and what power, if any, Premier and Minister for Health) (5.34 p.m.): they will have in comparison with the powers I move- exercised by members of the board. It seems that they will simply be advisers and "That a Bill be introduced to amend will not have any powers, and that the the Medical Act 1939-1976 in certain par­ ticulars." department is prepared to meet their out­ of-pocket expenses. This Bill is to provide an amendment to the Act to enable the Medical Board of Queens­ The Minister should realise that there is land to appoint advisory committees to advise a great deal of dissatisfaction amongst doc­ the board on any matter within the scope tors in many fields of activity covered by of the board's functions. the Health Department in Queensland. Almost daily one hears in this Chamber Provision is also made to enable allowances and reads in the Press of shortages of doc­ and out-of-pocket expenses to be paid to tors in various hospitals and of advertise­ members of advisory committees. ments not being answered and doctors fail­ In view of technological and social changes, ing to apply for jobs in Queensland. The the need for cost containment and certain main reason seems to be not the actual base inadequacies exemplified by complaints to pay rates that doctors are receiving in the board, a review of medical practice and Queensland but-- training in Queensland is required. I con­ sider it appropriate that such a review should Dr. Edwards interjected. be conducted under the auspices of the Medical Board of Queensland. Mr. D'ARCY: I ask the Minister to listen. These amendments will enable the estab­ It is time he began listening to complaints lishment of a committee to enquire into from the doctors in this State. One of their future needs and training for medical practice complaints is that the Minister wi!l not in Queensland. The amendments are of a listen to them. Medical Act [5 DECEMBER 1978] Amendment Bill 3213

Dr. EDWARDS: I rise to a point of order. There are problems in medicine for the I draw your attention, Mr. Hewitt, to the board to consider, but I do not believe that fact that the honourable member is not there is a need for a consumers' representa­ speaking about this Bill, which is a medical tive on the board. These days the board is registration Bill. It has nothing to do with not concerned greatly with arbitration on the matter that he has raised. fees, although that was one of its big responsibilities once. Many years ago, if The CHAIRMAN: Order! I look to the there was a dispute about fees, a patient could l'vlinister for some advice on this matter. Is appeal to the Medical Board, and the board the honourable member for Woodridge direct­ would sit in judgment on the fees charged ing comments to the Hospitals Act? by the doctor. The board would give an indication of what it believed would be fair Dr. EDWARDS: Yes. fees for the services rendered. Today, fees have largely passed out of the board's con­ The CHAIRMAN: Under those circum­ trol, because doctors' fees at all levels of »tances, the honourable member for Wood­ practice are itemised by procedure, and given ridge is out of order. a number and a fee ranging from the mini­ mum refund fee to the maximum recom­ mended by the Australian Medical Associa­ Mr. D'ARCY: I was referring to the fact tion or other body of medical practitioners. that the Bill allows out-of-pocket expenses I do not believe that these days the Medical and saying that the Minister disregards these Board would often be called to sit in judg­ in other sections of his portfolio in which ment on fees. doctors employed by the Health Department are not allowed out-of-pocket expenses or As I have said, I believe that the board travelling time. They are put through the does need to have access to the advice of ropes when it comes to conferences, etc. specialists. It will continue to have problems These are the complaints that are made to with registration, and it will always welcome me by doctors. They say that there are many the best advice it can obtain to help it in its vacancies throughout the State that are not deliberations. filled. I could cite hospital after hospital, starting with the Prince Charles and the Hon. L. R. EDWARDS (Ipswich-Deputy Royal Brisbane, where the unfilled vacancies Premier and Minister for Health) (5.44 are affecting the State's health services. It p.m.), in reply: I thank the honourable mem­ is essential that the Minister look at that bers for Woodridge and Toowoomba North problem, as well as the one he has brought for their comments. The honourable mem­ forward today. ber for Woodridge referred to the advisory The Opposition accepts the Bill, with the committees. We do feel very strongly that proviso that we would like to see a repre­ advisory committees play a very important sentative of the consumers advising the role. In the Health Department we have Medical Board. instituted many advisory committees, which have played a tremendous role in the develop­ ment of policy and programmes. Dr. LOCKWOOD (Toowoomba North) (5.41 p.m.): I support the Minister in his The honourable member suggested the introduction of this Bill. I agree that the inclusion of a consumers' representative on Medical Board has frequently found itself the Medical Board. Because doctors them­ in need of advice. It is a very small board, selves are consumers of medical treatment, and if it is to carry out its duties to the we have not supported that in the past. As best of its ability it needs to have advisory the honourable member for Toowoomba committees for the various specialties to North said, most of the complaints that inform it a!bout the qualifications of special­ come to the Medical Board these days con­ ists. In that way it can determine whether cern purely technical matters of management a person who seeks to be registered in of patients and the attitude of doctors towards Queensland as a specialist is entitled to be so patients. At this stage, the Government registered. To make that determination it could not support the appointment of a needs to be able to make a comparison in consumers' representative. The board is a qualifications, curriculums and courses of medical registration board and the doctors study undertaken at undergraduate and post­ are, in effect, the consumers. The honour­ graduate levels by those seeking registration. able member for Toowoomba North con­ sidered that there is no need for a consumers' If the board is considering a deregistration, representative on the board. His view is it needs to be doubly cautious, and would shared by the Government. need to be extremely well advised by special­ ists in the field of the specialist whose case The member for Woodridge also mentioned is being considered. the Hospitals Act. Its provisions do not come I believe that there are enough doctors within the ambit of the Bill. Doctors are presently registered in Australia and entitled entitled to out-of-pocket expenses incurred to reciprocal registration in Queensland to while they attend official conferences. That fill all the vacancies in Queensland hospitals, is their entitlement, so no problem arises including country hospitals. here. 70600--107 3214 Student Education [5 DECEMBER 1978] (Work Experience) Bill

I thank honourable members for their These programmes are seen as educational comments. in nature as well as merely vocational. The benefits they will provide for students include Motion (Dr. Edwards) agreed to. a broadening of social experience and oppor­ Resolution reported. tunities to explore the problems associated with leisure, pay, status, industrial relations and personal conduct. They will be able to experience the demands, discipline, drudgery FIRST READING and rewards of work and, in addition to being Bill presented and, on motion of Dr. able to sample various occupations, may also Edwards, read a first time. understand why schooling is important. Students are released from school in what are variously called "workouts", "action WITHDRAWAL OF NOTICE OF MOTION learning" or work experience programmes.

STUDENT EDUCATION (WORK EXPERIENCE) In Western technological society, work experience programmes have become well BILL established elements in schools' curricula. Hon. V. J. BIRD (Burdekin~Minister for Education) (5.46 p.m.): I ask leave to Work experience programmes have existed withdraw the notice of motion given by me in special schools in Queensland for over 10 this morning concerning the Student Educa­ years. These programmes have mainly been tion (Work Experience) Bill. informal and have been conducted according to the enthusiasm of the principal of the (Leave granted.) school and the goodwill of local employers. Principals of the special schools have been aware of the need for more investigation and STUDENT EDUCATION (WORK work associated with work experience pro­ EXPERIENCE) BILL grammes. The first area of difficulty encountered was the question of payment or INITIATION non-payment to students participating in these programmes. Many of these students are Hon. V. J. BIRD (Burdekin-Minister for under 15 years of age, and their employment Education), by leave, without notice: I would involve various breaches of current move- education and industrial legislation in Queens­ . ':That the House will, at its present land. Therefore, additional legislation is srttmg, resolve in itself into a Committee necessary for these students to be able to o~ the Whole to consider introducing a participate in these programmes. Bill to enable certain students to obtain It is the view of all parties involved in the work experience as part of their education." development of work experience programmes Motion agreed to. that these programmes should not be seen as productive, in the sense that the student is required to produce for the employer and INITIATION IN COMMITIEE should receive monetary reward for that pro­ duction. These programmes are seen as (The Chairman of Committees, Mr. W. D. essentially educational, with aims and objec­ Hewitt, Greenslopes, in the chair) tives beyond the merely vocational and pro­ ductive. To this end, it is important that the Hon. V. J. BIRD (Burdekin-Minister for students be not paid by the employers in the Education) (5.48 p.m.): I move- work experience programmes. "That a Bill be introduced to enable certain students to obtain work experience In point of fact, schools are requesting as part of their education." employers to perform an educational service. as an agent of the school and the education An interim work study committee was system. For this reason, even more than established by the Director-General of Educa­ all the other ones, it would be presumptuous tion in April 1977 to examine the establish­ to expect employers to pay for providing an ment and operation of formal work experi­ educational service. In fact, the service they ence programmes in Queensland schools. provide may be even non-productive, as many Such programmes have been undertaken of the students would have much to learn informally in opportunity schools for over before they could be regarded as productive. a decade and three pilot programmes were Another area which raised certain difficul­ initiated at Corinda, Newmarket and ties, but which this legislation will overcome, Centenary Heights State High Schools. is insurance, both for the students and for The interim committee defined work experi­ the employers. I will deal with this aspect during later consideration of the Bill. e~ce as work undertaken in the community, wrthout payment, by a student while attend­ As I said previously, in April 1977 the ing school, for the purpose of providing prac­ Director-General of Education set up a widely tical experiences. representative advisory committee to consider Student Education [5 DECEMBER 1978] (Work Experience) Bill 3215 the full implications of the programmes. decision on whether they go on to tertiary Represented on that committee were the studies, enter a trade, or whatever their Association of Independent Schools in future wiJI be. Queensland; the Australian Institute of Management; the Catholic Education Office; I listened very carefully to the Minister the Curriculum Branch of the Education and I was a little concerned to hear him use Department; the Department of Children's phrases such as "human relationships" and Services; the Department of Labour Relations "cultural activities", I wonder whether and Consumer Affairs; the Institute of Public students wiii be given not the sort of work Affairs (Queensland); the Metal Trades experience that the tradesman and the indus­ Industry; the Queensland Career Education trialist would be looking for but the more Association; the Queensland Confederation of academic type of work experience. I hope Industry; the Queensland Council of State that it will be a very practical exercise and Schools Organisations, as it was then called not something that comes from the academic and now known as the Queensland Council dream-time. Work experience, if it is to be of Parents and Citizens' Associations; the worth while, must be very meaningful. It Queensland Teachers Union; the Queensland has to be, in every sense of the word, Trades and Labor Council; and my depart­ experience of the work. ment's secondary special education and tech­ It concerned me a little to hear the Minis­ nical education branches. ter suggest that it was not necessary for that From that committee came a recommenda­ work experience to entail actually being part tion that work experience programmes be of the work-force. I think he used the term commenced, with the following aims and "role-playing". I do nqt denigrate the use­ objecti1·es: fulness of that activity in education but, in this field, I wonder whether it would be more Work experience programmes should meaningful if the students were given work involve work undertaken in the community experience in the very real sense of the word. by a student while at school, for the purpose The Minister said that it would be an aim of providing practical experiences in the of the Bill to remove the need for payment. industrial and commercial areas of the I have some hesitation in accepting that idea. community. Work experience should be exploratory by Dr. Lockwood: Why? nature, designed to provide students with insights into themselves in relation to life at Mr. SHAW: It is true that where those who work. have newly entered the work-force have been paid very high wages, this has acted as a It should be co-operatively supervised by disincentive to employers to engage people schools and employers, and represent the who have not either all or some of the growing edge of school-community relations. skills necessary to carry out the job. That aspect needs to be taken into consideration. It should also serve to foster a sense of However, I do not think that it is necessary community responsibility in education. to go right to the other end of the scale and Given the importance of work in our say {hat 'what we want these people to do is to society in relation to the individual's sense play a game. What we want them to do is of identity, significance and status, work­ to play a very real part. If they are to find experience programmes are of central import­ out what the work-force is all about, they will ance to students' attainment of goals classed need to be required to play a part in the work­ under such headings as self-development, self­ ing scene by which they are contributing some­ evaluation, cultural changes and human thing to it, not merely hanging around the relationships. These programmes allow workshop, or wherever this scheme is to be students to study first hand the life of their implemented, being a nuisance to the trades­ communities as reflected in the work place, men who have to explain to them what they testing and analysing reality, playing roles are doing. and experimenting with occupational The benefit would be far greater from the identities. point of view of both the student and the employer if the work carried out was of I commend the Bill to the Committee. some benefit to the employer as weiJ as to the student. I fully appreciate that many Mr. SHAW (Wynnum) (5.54 p.m.): The problems are associated with doing that, but Bill outlined to us by the Minister should it may be possible to formulate ways in which be an important advancement in our Queens­ reasonable remuneration could be paid to land education system but, because at this these people for the work that they carry out. stage I do not know what the Minister intends, I am not in a position to say [Sitting suspended from 6 to 7.15 p.m.] whether it is or not. It is unfortunate that we do not know a little more about what is Mr. SHAW: Before the dinner recess I intended. I welcome the introduction of the was speaking about the desirability of intro­ Biii because, most certainly, there is a great ducing some sort of payment for these need to provide work experience for students students, wherever possible. I am not sug­ as they approach the time of making the gesting that this should in any way take the 3216 Student Education [5 DECEMBER 1978] (Work Experience) Bilt

form of a salary for the students. I fully I hope that some initiative is taken to appreciate that they are only students and interact with the T.A.F.E. courses, which in many cases it would not be appropriate provide pre-vocational training on the same for any fee to be charged, but I feel that basis. Under that system, people entering an in some circumstances, if a nominal wage apprenticeship have the opportunity to under­ could be attached to productive work, this take a far broader programme of study than would enhance the \vork experience. hitherto before settling down to the final course that will, presumably, be their chosen In his introductory remarks the Minister occupation for at least the next decade. said he was trying to achieve a state of affairs where the students experienced all I recognise that most people change their the drudgery and all the bad things as well employment several times during their life­ as the good things that come with employ­ time. I hope that there will be some sort ment, and I suggest that if it is at all pos­ of link between what the T.A.F.E. colleges sible to introduce such a scheme of pay­ and the high schools are trying to do. I ment it would be well worth consideration. know that already there is some difficulty in establishing just where one course stops and When we talk about work experience, we the other starts. In some cases, courses tend to think in terms of the trade sector incorporating work experience programmes and overlook that there are other sections are being provided by high schools on a of the work-force. I hope that in what the voluntary basis, and they are to some extent Minister proposes he will also be looking cutting across what is being done by T.A.F.E. towards trying to provide experience in the colleges. I hope that there will be some professions and other sections of the work­ co-ordination of these two courses. force and not just in the trades and in the sort of work done by people who have not I imagine that these work experience gone on to tertiary education. This would courses will be introduced in Grades 9 and provide an opportunity at an early age for 10. I suggest that some consideration should students who do not really know what life be given perhaps to including them in Grade holds for them or which occupation they will 8, although that might be a little early. If enter, to gain some sort of experience in the some benefit from these courses is to be professions-perhaps engineering or even gained by children who intend to leave school medicine. This would enable them to gain after completing Grade 10 and who have to some knowledge of just what sort of work make a decision as to what academic courses would be entailed if the student decided to they will take in Grades 9 and 10, there enter one of the professions. Of course, in may be some advantage in some work experi· that instance any payment whatsoever would ence programme being made available in be out of the question. Grade 8. I know that there would be some difficulties in doing it, but I offer it as a In his introductory remarks the Minister suggestion that the Minister might like to said that there would be some difficulty in consider. getting employers to take students into the I believe that the Government is to be work place, and I think that is probably commended on trying to provide some work fair comment. He said that the schools are experience for students. I think that it will asking a great deal of employers, and whilst be welcomed by people who have any know­ that is no doubt true, it is also true to say ledge of the present difficulties of people that the employers are asking quite a deal leaving school and entering the work-force. of our schools. The employers have quite The Committee and certainly the a bit to gain from what is being proposed members of the Opposition look forward to here, and perhaps it will be a two-way pro­ seeing details of the proposal after the Bill is printed. cess; that not only will the students learn more of the needs of employers, but the Dr. LOCKWOOD (Toowoomba North) employers will learn a little bit more about (7.22 p.m.): I have great pleasure in rising what is going on in the schools. to support the Minister's introduction of The employers are making an invest­ legislation to implement a work experience ment in the future, because it is quite programme in schools in Queensland. reasonable to assume that students who leave I have been following the scheme as it has school and enter that particular field of been implemented at the Centenary Heights endeavour will do so with a greater under­ State School in Toowoomba for two years. standing of what it is they are going into, I do not think that enough credit can be and will consequently make better employees. given to the teachers of that school who Conversely, if they are going on to further worked so hard to see that all of the basic study, they will make a greater success of problems, which will be mentioned in the that also because they will not go through next couple of days, were ironed out. that process-and it happens so often today --of commencing one university course after The scheme was encouraged in that school leaving school and then finding that it is not by a Mr. Rick Wozney, a Canadian, who really what they wanted to do. I hope we brought to Toowoomba his experience and find that this procedure that is to be adopted skills in implementing work experience pro­ will help to overcome that problem. grammes in his native Province in Canada. Student Education [5 DECEMBER 1978] (Work Experience) Bill 3217

I think he came from Manitoba. Of course, against those of a person who was in an in Canada the work experience programme is office-type job or those of a person who was a very big thing. School students of 14, 15 in the field of commerce or perhaps in a and 16 years of age enter employment during trade. their very long summer vacation. The pro­ gramme is aimed at getting students into The Centenary State High School devised fully paid employment for up to five months all the paperwork that it believed to be a year. It is a very real and necessary part necessary to cover workers' compensation, of the Canadian economy to have students public risk, release from school to attend a \vorking during their very long summer work experience programme, and other pro­ vacation. cedures. I hope that it has been of great assistance to the Minister, his committees I am very pleased to back the members of within the Education Department and his par­ the parents and citizens' association of the liamentary committee, as they have gone Centenary Heights State School in their about considering what would be required efforts to bring to fruition the work experi­ to make the necessary changes in legislation. ence programme in Toowoomba. The prob­ lems they found are the ones that we will I note that the Minister says that the pro­ now solve with this legislation. posed legislation is to enable cert~_in stud~nts to obtain work experience. One or the thmgs The first question they asked was how the that I understood about a work experience programme would be accepted as an unpaid programme was that it would be of benefit intrusion into the work-force. I think they to all students. As I understood the Too­ found that employers were quick to appreci­ woomba experience, it was that at 15 years ate that this was to be an educational pro­ of age a student could gain experience that gramme for children and not just an oppor­ would be valuable to him for the whole of tunity to get an unpaid employee. Indeed, his life, whether he intended leaving school one of the earliest matters that had to be at Grade 10 or before Grade 10, or part way ironed out in the work experience programme through Grade 11 or at the end of Grade 12, was acceptance by the unions. For their part, or whether he intended going on to a tertiary the unions accepted that this was a genuine education. No matter what his aims and effort to give children experience of this ambitions were, with continued education or missing link in education, that is, the change­ on going into an occupation, each student over from formal education to full working could benefit by a course in the work experi­ experience. I heard last week that there were ence programme. some murmurs of union concern about the programme. I hope that it is only over The scheme is, I believe, capable of imple­ some technicality that has been discovered mentation at very little additional cost to and that the unions will still give it their the Education Department's budget. In my full backing as a very realistic means of opinion, the scheme can be run by teachers, assisting children in their education. although I do not doubt for one minute that it will be necessary to have teachers further The programme will involve a briefing at tmined in the administration that will go school, in which the teacher in charge of with the course. the programme will outline to the pupils the To date, only three schools have had an expectations of employers and the general opportunity of sampling the work experience public with whom they will be dealing, the programme, and I agree with the Minister need for punctuality, the need for endurance that it has been widely practised by those in some occupations, and the need to be who have even greater difficulty in obtaining properly dressed for the occupation. employment, that is, children who go to opportunity schools. Members of this At work, the teacher will have a role of Assembly and members of the public who visiting the student in the work allocated to have visited opportunity schools will know him, seeing whether he is in fact performing that in them there is a very heavy emphasis and that he is attending regularly and satisfy­ on training for various occupations of the ing the general requirements of a work ex­ semi-skilled or unskilled type, and I think perience programme. It will not only be that opportunity schools, and even schools necessary to gain from the student an impres­ for subnormals, have stolen a march on the sion of how he is doing, so he can assess ordinary schools in this regard. I am very himself; it will also be necessary to consult pleased to see that ordinary schools in this with the employer to see how the student State are going to pick up the backlog. In is measuring up from the employer's point this field, they have lost 10 years to schools of view. for subnormal children and opportunity schools. It is high time they got back into The programme would have very little competition with the other schools. relevance if there were not to be a deep debriefing session back at the school, at In Toowoomba there has been a ready which each student could bring to his class­ willingness by various employers to give mates, through the expertise of the teacher, students positions in the work·force for two his impressions of the programme. For weeks or so as a work experience programme. example, a student who was in a manual­ On the other hand, Government departments type job could offer his experiences as have been reluctant to offer positions to 3218 Student Education (5 DECEMBER 1978] (Work Experience) Bill students. Perhaps that was because of the The Minister mentioned the problem of very real problems associated with workers' payment to children under 15 years of age. compensation in the event of an injury to Does he mean that children under 15 years a student. Two years ago such problems of age will participate extensively in the had not been solved. It was not known scheme? If so, I am a little concerned about how much compensation could be paid to it. Almost daily, schoolchildren sit in the students who were not working for an public gallery and watch the proceedings in income. They would have tended lo be this Chamber. As a former teacher, I regarded as members of the general public, realise that many of the children who come whereas they would not have been members here, supposedly to see Parliament at work, of the general public but persons who were go away disillusioned. Many of them are working. As we have solved those workers' too young to absorb the intricacies of what compensation problems that might arise in is happening. I hope that a similar situa­ connection with those who take part in a tion will not arise as a result of this legisla­ work experience programme, I hope that tion. The scheme should apply to children there will be a big opening up of Govern­ who are in the upper echelon of their classes ment departments to accept students on a and about to leave school, whether they are work experience programme. in the junior or senior grades. An increasing number of children in Queensland are pro­ Our State hospitals are very large, and ceeding through to the senior level. The we have many big departments such as the children who will benefit most from this Main Roads Department. Perhaps students legislation are those in Grades 11 and 12. could visit various Government departments, because this could be of great benefit to them. A problem will arise in areas that have Perhaps the State Government could liaise no large, established industries. As has been \Vith the Federal Government to see whether pointed out, the employer who takes on students could enter such places as post children under the proposed scheme will be offices. The Commonwealth Employment doing a great service to the area in which Service, the Social Security Department and the children live. In areas that have no other large Commonwealth departments large industries, it will be difficult to find would be able to demonstrate very sophisti­ such an employer. cated office procedures. Other members have pointed to the prob­ I hope that the Bill will provide a great lems that will face an employer who accepts opportunity for children to get work experi­ his responsibilities to these children. What ence while at school. I hope that the pro­ has not been pointed out is the need for gramme can be rapidly implemented. I extra staff to implement this scheme. hope that it will be fully operating from the first term next year, so that students can Mr. Bird: No. take advantage of it as soon as their study load permits. I have great pleasure in Mr. D'ARCY: If the Minister claims that supporting the Minister in his introduction it will not be necessary to appoint additional of the Bill. I hope the scheme can be staff, he has no idea of the way in which implemented fully for the benefit of all schools operate. It will be necessary to children at school next year. appoint additional staff. At a recent speech night, I heard a principal say to his students Mr. D'ARCY (Woodridge) (7.33 p.m.): It that he did not realise he had such a is not often that the Minister for Education brilliant staff; that the Education Department introduces something so worth while. This regarded them as irreplaceable and had not legislation is probably one of the most replaced any of them. A tremendous amount important initiatives taken by the Education of time will be taken up in organising Department in recent times. However, I fear schedules, in selecting employers and in that there will be problems, as the Minister deciding the type of work that is to be must realise. undertaken by the students. Will teachers be given extra time to do that? Or will they The committee that provided the back­ be required to do it in their own time? When ground to the introduction of the Bill did will they have time to investigate the work a very good job. It was a widely representa­ scene before children enter it? The imple­ tive committee that had all the facts at its mentation of the scheme will be much more fingertips, and it looked at the problems difficult than it looks on paper. It is not involved. a matter of saying that, because this legisla­ tion has been introduced, the scheme will The actual implementation of the scheme be implemented overnight. The scheme is has been seen in only a few pilot schools, and a brilliant one and I want to see it imple­ other schools that the Minister has not men­ mented. However, I want to see it imple­ tioned. I do not know whether it was being mented properly. done at those schools only at the behest of the princip:~l or because some teachers At this stage, I accept the Minister's showed a great deal of initiative. Schools assurance that the scheme will not be a such as Woodridge High were not mentioned means of providing cheap labour. Those of by the Minister. Those schools have run us who have seen the special schools pro­ into a lot of problems with the scheme. gramme in operation would realise that they Student Education [5 DECEMBER 1978] (Work Experience) Bill 3219

are nothing short of a form of cheap labour. work is all about. If we were to examine I have in mind the situation that occurred closely the situation of young people, we at election-time, when children were folding would find that many of them know little papers and putting them in envelopes and about work or how to go about it. Those so. on. I am not objecting to that type of members involved with the committee on thmg. unemployment have been told by employers that many young people are incapable of Mr. Bird interjected. doing eight hours' work simply because they have not had any work experience. That Mr. D'ARCY: The Minister knows that it comes as a bit of a shock. goes on in various schools. On the other hand, some principals in smaller schools The Minister is to be commended on have implemented excellent schemes of work. introducing this scheme. I am sure it will have the support of all honourable members. I have mentioned staff. The introduction It is being introduced so that the ordinary of children into the work scene will impose high schools will be able to implement a great stress on employers in that there schemes similar to the ones that have been will be a need to appoint overseeing staff. tried mainly at the opportunity schools. This extra stress calls for the appointment Many high school students could benefit of extra staff. I hope that the Minister greatly from this work situation. realises the administrative problems that will be created by the scheme. The honourable member for Woodridge seemed to be worried about this scheme being Everything should be done to improve the used to provide cheap labour. I do not image of the education system in the eyes of think there is anything to worry about on the public. Far too often employers claim that score. The most important point is that that the education system in this State stinks our young students will be continuing their because none of the kids can read or write. education in this field and getting practical We have all heard that. We have heard the experience that will equip them well in the Rona Joyners and others who suffer from future as they become part of the work­ this syndrome. As I say, the scheme is a force and citizens of the State. good one, and we do not want to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs. I hope that I agree that students participating in the the scheme will not be misused and I hope scheme will have to be supervised very that the Minister ensures that sufficient staff closely by their school principal, who will will be appointed to administer it properly. also have to ensure that a sympathetic employer provides proper supervision at the work site. In this way the students will get M~. GOLEBY (Redlands) (7.40 p.m.): This a proper briefing on what work is all about evenmg I shall relate to the Committee my and they will carry out their work efficiently. experience of how this scheme has worked It is not much use being in the work situation in my area. My electorate was fortunate in unless a person is employed gainfully for th! that a pilot scheme was instituted there and employer and for himself. It is useless just it worked very satisfactorily. It was estab­ being there and putting in time. I hope that lished thanks to the good offices of the the Minister and his officers will emphasis<: principal of the Redlands Opportunity School this, irrespective of the situation in which who, as I said in another debate, is one of the students find themselves. Employers who the school principals who really goes the are good enough to employ them must give second mile in looking after the welfare of a guarantee that supervision and training his students. will be the order of the day. A number of students had an opportunity to become involved in harvesting one of the Mr. WRIGHT (Rockhampton) (7.44 p.m.): local fruit crops. The scheme worked very I support the Opposition shadow Minister's well. In the present economic climate, many comments about this being an excellent con­ of the students at the opportunity school cept. I commend the Minister on introducing find difficulty in getting employment, let the proposal to the Assembly. The idea alone experience in the work situation. It is was first mooted some years ago. An inquirr not only the students at the opportunity was undertaken, and a pilot scheme was schools who have these problems; the lower introduced in 1977. On the information pro­ echelon of students who do not go on to vided to me, it worked extremely well, and no Grades 11 and 12 and are not interested doubt because of its success this legislation in a trade often cannot find employment. is now before the Assembly. Unfortunately many of them have had little opportunity of gaining experience in the work I have tried to look at the Bill from the situation. Perhaps they have been brought point of view of its advantages and I have up in homes where they have not been made considered first the advantages to the stu­ to earn their pocket-money or do the tasks dents. Earlier tonight, under legislation intro­ normally allotted to children at home. duced by the Minister for Labour Relations and handled by the honourable member for Children sometimes begrudge doing jobs Rockhampton North on behalf of the Oppos­ in their formative years; little do they realise ition, we were looking at pre-vocational that while doing them they are learning what training. I see it as a characteristic of the 3220 Student Education (5 DECEMBER 1978] (Work Experience) Bill scheme before us now. It certainly has edu­ There is a scholastic advantage. We will cational advantages, and this has been can­ have a mixture of the practical and the vassed by many speakers. theoretical. This is certainly needed in the education programme today. If this is brought It allows the exploratory aspect, which to back to the class-room, it must, in the long my knowledge is vitally important to term, make school studies more enjoyable. students. They can test the various spheres If there is understanding in the learning of employment and determine for themselves process, enjoyment is part of it. If a the type of employment that they would student understands why he is doing some­ like to pursue on a full-time basis. It gives thing and it is not a case of, "This is what the student an opportunity to get an insight you have to learn", he benefits. It will make into the community. As honourable mem­ his studies more applicable to the future. bers know, I was formerly a teacher. I started school at four years of age and left As the Minister said, the proposal has an school at 27. I know that other teachers who element of human relations and allows have entered this Assembly have realised students to mix in the community. I have the disadvantages faced by teachers. They looked at the advantages from the schools' start in school and they stay there. I point of view and I see a very broad role in remember some of the criticism leve!led at the community for the schools. It will also me and other teachers when I entered Par­ improve the teaching in schools because liament 10 years ago. At school the teachers teachers will have within their class-rooms say, "Pick up papers", and expect it to be students who have been able to relate what done. When they come out into the world, they are learning theoretically with their they find that their colleagues are not small work experiences. schoolchildren and will not be told what to do. This can be applied to students also. If one turns the story round, one realises Without getting work experience, they do that there will be not only a broader role not understand what happens in real life. for the school in the community but also This Bill will give them the opportunity to an ongoing role for communinty participa­ find out what it is like on the outside. tion within the schools. This has been advo­ cated over a long period. It will create this Mr. Bird: This is where human relation­ greater role because when we start involving ships come into it. students in a community, there will be a need for liaison between the school community and industry. There will be a need for co­ Mr. WRIGHT: I note the point made by operation to ensure that the scheme works the Minister in his speech that it does properly. There will ·be a need for consulta­ involve the students in human relationships. tion. So we will have industry and commerce This is vitally important. They have to live questioning what the schools are about and with people in the community and if they becoming involved with schools. can be given that opportunity prior to enter­ ing into a full-time job, they will benefit I look then at the community aspect and from it. It will certainly allow them to test the advantages there. Most importantly it out the possibilities of employment without will alleviate, in part at least, the wastage that full-time or long-term commitment. that takes place because of early dissatis­ faction with employment. We could look at The Opposition shadow Minister, the hon­ ourselves and ask how many jobs we have ourable member for Wynnum, made the had and why we changed jobs. It is often point about the number of people who leave because we started out doing a certain task jobs. Some statistics I saw showed that most and found that it was not suited to our people have an average of five jobs in a life­ make-up. It will remove this constant change time. While that might be very interesting in in employment that I mentioned before. It that the person concerned exercises his right must create or produce more satisfied to choose, there is certainly a degree of wastage employees and, I hope, more satisfied because the person who takes his place has employers. to be retrained. The proposed legislation will give students many advantages. It will give One of the reasons why the Select Com­ them practical experience in a true life situ­ mittee on Education in Queensland was ation. established was the consistent criticism of the education system by employers as well As they will involve themselves in the as parents. I would like to think that, as v.;ork-force-be it in commerce or in industrv students become involved in the work-force, -they will develop some type of self-account­ the employers will see some of the gaps, ability that, in my view, is missing today in some of the disadvantages, some of the diffi­ some schools. Students do not have to do culties that exist, and might be able to very mnch. They have teachers to molly­ relate back to the school and say, "This ought to be covered." I am sure this could coddle them all the time. They are set work lead to variations in courses as the employ­ to do and they do it without really worrying ers and the schools realised that students, why they do it. The Bill will allow for self­ because they lack certain expertise, cannot development. Again these are characteristics cope with certain tasks. There will be this and traits that we ought to develop and close relationship between the community and encourage in students. the schools, and I would hope that this would Student Education [5 DECEMBER 1978] (Work Experience) Bill 3221 involve the students, staff and parents, situation. We are going to have to watch because we are not seeking just to send that, or they will waste their own time, the students out into the community; we want employers' time and other employees' time. the parents to become involved, so they will I can even see it getting to the stage where have to be consulted by the schools and also they will not even bother turning up for by the employers. work, and will not be at school, either. With every good thing there are also some I ask the Minister to consider and tell the problems, and I see here some dangers. There Committee what scholastic advantage the is a danger that some students may simply student will achieve. Will some type of be non-productive, and if an employee is accreditation system be used so that, if a non-productive this leads to a sense of dis­ student undertakes a work experience pro­ satisfaction. I accept that this cannot be gramme, this would add in some way to the overcome immediately. I know this because final result that the child would receive I took a young lass into my office under the when he or she left school? If there is not, Commonwealth employment scheme. For the there could be a disadvantage. Admittedly, first three months she was a burden. We had we do not know how long this is going to to train her, and my senior girls spent a be for. Is it to be for a three-month period, a tremendous amount of time coping with the six-month period-- problems that she posed. We did not achieve very much early and there was negative pro­ Mr. Bird: A month a year, four sessions. ductivity. After the first three months there was a tremendous change, and that is why I Mr. WRIGHT: That is not a tremendous have kept her on even to this day, some two loss. But I believe that if we take a number years later. of students, especially the lower average students, out of a class-room, outside the There is also the problem that the student discipline of the class-room, for a whole will feel dissatisfied not only because of the month, they could certainly face a set-back. non-productive aspect but also because of the mundane tasks that he might be given. Mr. Bird: Four periods of a week through We might ask ourselves what sort of task the year. we would give a 15-year-old student if we were employers. Would it be just making Mr. WRIGHT: I am glad the Minister tea or sweeping up? That is not a real explained that. No doubt he will go into it appreciation of what happens in an office, further during the second reading. but this is the type of problem that we will be faced with. The tasks that the students I want to make a few final points in the undertake will not really portray the job moments I have left. I suggest that in the undertaken. It will not give a true apprecia­ future, as this scheme continues to work tion of what a particular job is really like. and as it is successful, we might look at a All of these pr

concerning insurance and compensation. If way that a student would go to a particular it is done on a voluntary basis, and if there work place, be it a motor shop or a fitting is this co-operation, consultation and constant and turning shop, and spend the whole day supervision, I cannot see any reason why making tea and sweeping up the filings. I the scheme will not work. Productivity is would hate to see that sort of depressive not an issue here at all because, as I have attitude introduced. I would say, from the suggested, there are many advantages to the experience that I have had with students and student, to the community and also to employers who have had something to do employment generally. with work experience programmes thus far that that will not happen. That would b~ Mr. POWELL (Isis) (7.56 p.m.): The Bit! a very negative attitude and, to my know­ presently before the Committee is in stark ledge, the employers and the staff who have contrast to a Bill that was introduced by had anything to do with the scheme do not another Minister earlier. This is an excellent look at it in a negative way. Therefore it will be very beneficial indeed to the sch~ol piece of legislation ~or which the Govern­ ment must be highly commended. especially beneficial to the student, who wili be able to look round and see what sort of The work experience programmes that job might suit him, and beneficial to the have been undertaken in a number of schools employer, who will see the problems that in different areas of the State have the school has to face and, I hope under- encountered some problems, but obviously stand them a little better. ' they have been accepted very well by every­ body who has had anything to do with them. A person leaving school in the present As has been mentioned by other speakers situation often faces problems. Whereas at in the debate, a great number of children school he has been told that he has not failed within our school system today do not want in anything, he goes to work and finds that to be there, and one of the problems facing he cannot achieve everything as he could at a teacher is motivating students to do some school. He is told that near enough is not work. The criticism that is levelled at the good enough and that he has to sit down and school system and at teachers generally is do the job till it is done properly, whereas at that children leave school il!-

Labour Relations, because I can see that, as different from what happened years ago. time goes by, work experience, pre-vocational The only difference today is that approxi­ training and pre-apprenticeship training are mately seven per cent of the work-force in going to be welded into one. When students Queensland is unemployed, and thousands have completed their formal education, when of school-leavers each year are unable to thev have had as much of the three Rs as find work. For the past three or four years they can take, they can then look round and they have had to take any job they could choose the sort of job experience that they get. They have not been able to be choosy need. Having chosen a course, they can and sit back and wait for the type of job then set sail and obtain the qualifications they wanted. that they need for it. I am pleased that the Minister has intro­ The situation today is not very much duced this scheme, but it does cause some different from what it was 40 or 50 years worries. The honourable member for Rock­ ago. At age 15 years or 16 years, students hampton expressed those worries very well. I are churned out of school and head off in am concerned about the numbers that will whichever direction they wish to go. Because be brought into this scheme. Some high conditions in the community today are far schools have an enrolment of 1,500. Students easier than they were even when we were in Grades 10 and 11 will be the ones to children, Mr. Hewitt, there are not enough take part in the scheme. That will mean that forces at work on the student to induce him 200, 300 or 400 children from each large to put his head down and find out where he school in a town could be participating in is going. By having a programme such as the scheme. It will be very hard to control. this, the Government is facing that reality. We know that we see children running around Whereas I believe it has not been facing the streets of the city on their way to take reality in the apprenticeship-training scheme, part in school sports. Transporting children the Government is facing reality in this from school to the job and back again will situation. be a problem. As the honourable member for Woodridge said, a great deal of super­ I commend the Minister for the way he vision will be needed. The Education Depart­ has worked so hard to bring this legislation ment has an obligation in regard to the before the Assembly. I am certain that when safety of schoolchildren. If they are to be honourable members are able to peruse the sent out into the work-force, they have to Bill in detail they will find that the Govern­ be properly supervised. ment has done everything possible to bring into the education sphere a more acceptable As was said previously, some employers community involvement. Time and time may use this type of job training to replace again we have heard people crying out for first-year employees. A short time ago, the community involvement, and this is one area Federal Government introduced a scheme where it can occur. Indeed, it is essential whereby employers were given a payment for that it be there. The Bill will allow that com­ six months if they employed a person who munity involvement. had been unemployed for four months or longer. It was found that, after the employer I am disappointed that there are those had had the services of the employee for who have placed obstacles in the way. I six months, he sacked the employee on the am disappointed that one Opposition member lame excuse that he was not acceptable. talked about slave labour. What utter rot can be spoken! A work experience pro­ One honourable member said that the gramme is exactly that; it provides work employers should make a report back to the experience. We are asking that students be school. I quite agree with that. However, taken into the work situation where they can it may be found that if an employer who is experience and feel the day-to-day operations dissatisfied with the student's initiative puts in, say, a factory. It is not much use their going into jobs blind, as they do now. This in an adverse report on him, that black is a step in the right direction. When hon­ mark will be against his name in his later ourable members know all about the Bill, career. I am sure that they will adopt a more positive What type of work will be performed by attitude towards what is proposed. I am the students? They cannot be put into every confident that the Bill will be remembered shop or business in town. After all, some by the Minister as one of the most successful positions in the work-force are ones that are pieces of legislation put before the Chamber. filled normally by young people who attain a tertiary standard of education. I have in Mr. PREST (Port Curtis) (8.7 p.m.): I rise mind, for instance, secretarial work that is to support the Bill. The honourable member performed by girls who undertake shorthand for Isis let his imagination run wild when and typing courses in tertiary colleges. he stated that years ago the teacher used to encourage a child in his ambitions in life The Minister will recall that recently I and, if the child had no ambitions at all, the spoke of a meeting held at the Gladstone teacher would suggest to him an occupation State High School that came up with a that he could enter and he would follow scheme to introduce certain non-board that calling for the rest of his life. He courses for students who were killing time said that what happened today was no at school while they were waiting for job 3224 Student Education [5 DECEMBER 1978] (Work Experience) Bill

opportunities to present themselves. Those a copy of the Local Government Act in children will be taught manual training such front of him. His comments were so as carpentry, electrical work or welding and, irrelevant to this Bill that he must have as well, the girls will receive training in an been talking about that Act. After all the office that is to be set up at the school. The knocking by members of the Opposition, his scheme is a very good one. comment at the end of his speech, "We wish the scheme well", must be the greatest joke The scheme outlined by the Minister, how­ of all. The Opposition members hope that ever, will take the training of students away the scheme wi11 fail so that the Government from the schools and place it in the hands cannot get credit for doing something of employers. They will be required to excellent. shoulder the responsibilities that should be borne by the Education Department. This is an excellent scheme, which has Admittedly, the scheme has been a success been trialled by one of the teachers at on the basis of one day's work experience St. Patrick's School in Sandgate, Mr. John each year. However, the Minister proposes Lovett. This year he arranged for all his that the scheme will be conducted over the students in the senior grade to get work whole year, year in, year out. Again I claim experience in various offices and factories the scheme should be undertaken within the around Brisbane. Most of the young fellows school itself. have already arranged jobs. The scheme gave them excellent experience. A couple I am concerned about the compensation of them worked in architectural offices. They aspect in the event of an accident to a student left them knowing much more about archi­ while he is in the work scene. We have tecture; they know it does not simply mean been assured that that matter is taken care sitting at a drawing board with a T-square of. It is unfortunate that certain employers in front of them-that it means hard work, do all they can to avoid giving an injured getting out and getting their boots dirty. employee his entitlements. That scheme was implemented by Mr. Lovett at virtually no cost to the school. None I wish the scheme well, in spite of the of the dreadful phophecies advanced by the fact that I believe it should be implemented Opposition was evident in it. It was extremely not in the work scene but in the school as etiective. the responsibility of the Education Depart­ ment. It would be much better to provide Another scheme has been trialling at the practical training in the class-room. Pine Rivers State High School, where stud­ ents have had general discussions and done As to special education-! have tremendous audio-visual work. They have had a lot of admiration for the staff at the Gladstone experience at the school in understanding Opportunity School. One of the teachers, what is expected of them outside. As other Mr. Ken Lindley, takes a very keen interest Government spokesmen have said, over and in the children and teaches them to take over again in our tour around the State immense pride in the work that they do. on the unemployment committee we were They realise the value of the work that they told that young people beginning work in perform. So again I say that it would be shops, factories, workshops or on building better to implement this scheme in the sites do not know what is expected of them. schools. This scheme will at least head them in the right direction. They will still have to learn Mr. AKERS (Pine Rivers) (8.15 p.m.): In the hard way. What is required will still rising to support the Bill, I intend to speak have to be knocked into some of them, but far more briefly than did the two Opposition they will have had an opportunity to learn spokesmen who followed the Opposition beforehand. In this way we could have shadow Minister. The list of the honourable a much more pronuctive and happy work­ member for Rockhampton about what could force. happen in the next few years if minor faults appear in the scheme is typical of the The only danger I visualise centres not Opposition's negative "I told you so" attitude on the scheme itseLf, but on the economy. in Parliament. The Opposition is supposed Children will get experience in a job, learn to do something. It is supposed to be an what it is all about and get very excited opposition. On this occasion it wants to be about it; but, when they go looking in the seen to be supporting the measure, but it employment market, the job may not be cannot let the Government get all the kudos. available to them. That is the only note of Therefore, it draws attention to all the caution I would sound. TI1e possibility things that may go wrong. In a couple of that a job which they want may not be years' time one or two of these comments available to them when they want it must will be pulled out of "Hansard" and the be fully explained to them. honoura;ble member for Rockhampton will say, "I told you so." The only further point I would make is that I would like to see an extension of this I had great difficulty in finding anything type of scheme back within the schools so relevant in what was said by the honourable that employers could come in at night and member for Port Curtis. He went on and use equipment that is in the schools and on. Eventually I found out that he had talk to young people from the school, those Student Education [5 DECEMBER 1978] (Work Experience) Bill 3225

who have left school and cannot find work comes in at the direction of the Minister or those who are in one type of employ­ for Education before we have the findings ment and want to try something else. As an of the Select Committee on Education. This example, the Pine Rivers High School has committee should not be discussing import­ been supplied with $80,000 worth of excel­ ant education Bills until that report has lent equipment, such as lathes, oxy-welders been tabled. In this instance, I am quite and electric-welders in an excellent, small happy to believe our own publicity because workshop. It is lying idle at night. I urge I support the concept of the Select Com­ the Minister, when he gets the chance, to mittee on Education. I say it is a great thing, look at extending the scheme into that field. and I said that at the time it was set up. It is one of the better things that have hap­ Mr. SCOTT (Cook) (8.21 p.m.): I am pened in education in Queensland. It was very happy to support the speakers from charged with the responsibility of looking this side of the Chamber. They handled around the State and obtaining opinions on themselves very competently. They adopted what is required in education. We are now an even-handed approach to the legislation. asked to consider important education leg­ That is something that one expects from islation without knowing the committee's competent Opposition speakers. The Bill has findings, or the evidence placed before it, not been knocked outright, yet all honour­ other than what we have been able to able members, including those on the Gov­ discover from public submissions. ernment side of the Chamber, are well I happily note, and wish to be recorded as aware that there is room for fairly strong saying, that employers were amongst those condemnation of the measure. who contributed submissions and opinions The Opposition shadow Minister for Edu­ to that committee. That is very good, but cation canvassed as much of the Bill as he the Minister is not worried about their understood from the Minister's remarks, and opinions now that he is introducing this he did it very well. The honourable member legislation. I do not think that employers for Rockhampton spoke on it very com­ will be at all happy about the legislation. In petently. He looked first at all of the aspects fact, the only opinions that I have heard on the merit side and then very carefully put forward attributing merit to the scheme and in a measured way put forward some are those of educationists themselves. 1 criticisms. Since then, speakers from both would be the last one to say that sides of the Chamber have tended to weave educationis,ts--- a degree of criticism into their speeches. l\ir. Bird: Did you look at the composi­ For a while I thought that the Minister tion of the committee that went into this? had discovered a panacea. He was quite I do not think you could have, in view of pleased with what was said about the Bill's your statement that employers are not prospects. He was smiling quite widely, as interested in it. That could not be further he was in the Cook electorate last week. from the truth. I am happy to believe that he was smiling in a constructive sense about some of the Mr. SCOTT: Everyone is aware that the things he had seen in that electorate. I am composition of a committee can be arranged sorry that I was not able to be with him. as one wants it. I would like to be able to say that the Mr. Bird: The trade unions, including the intention behind the Bill is quite admirable Queensland Teachers' Union, were represen­ and that there is every likelihood that it will ted. succeed in its aim. Unfortunately, because I do not really think that the intention Mr. SCOTT: Despite the advice I am behind the Bill is an admirable one; I must receiving from the other side-and I accept say that I think that it has been brought that Government members are going to try forward with an eye on the state of employ­ to construct my speech for me-I do not ment in Queensland. I believe that the Bill believe that employers generally will be is aimed largely at keeping young people at happy with the scheme. school. I certainly would not criticise that aspect of it. I well remember my first year as an apprentice. Certainly the pressures of these Government Members interjected. days did not apply then and it was possible to keep a lad in work doing messages Mr. SCOTT: I am mindful of the cries around the streets of Brisbane for a year of "Ooh" and "Ah" that go up from the and that is what I did. I looked for every Government side whenever I speak. I do opportunity to start learning my trade; but, not know why Government members pay so because the employer was quite happy to much attention to my speeches but rarely have me doing the menial work in the do they say anything constructive by way workshop, it was not offered to me. Cer­ of interjection. tainly it was necess'ary for someone to do that work, but I do not believe it was The measure is aimed largely at keeping the role of a first-year apprentice. It was children at school. In itself, that is not bad, certainly given to me. That was in the but at this point I deplore legislation that relatively leisurely days of 1947. The world 3226 Student Education [5 DECEMBER 1978} (Work Experience) Bill

today is a totally different one, and people have not done so. The member for \Varwick on the other side of the Chamber, who claim talked about students in his electorate picking to speak for employers and know every last fruit. Is that the type of experience that the aspect of their operations, are now trying to Minister has in mind? I do not think that it tell us that employers will happily receive is. students into the work-force. I want to tread very carefully in talking about this because, A Government 1\Jiember: You don't know in spite of the hoo-ha from the other side, I your geography at all. am not entirely against the Bill, and that theme will recur repeatedly through my Mr. SCOTT: I stand corrected; I meant speech. the member for Redlands. One can­ Government Members interjected. not tell the difference between members opposite. Mr. SCOTI: It is good to know that I am inclined to look at this legislation members opposite can cheer. Because I went as it affects my electorate. I see in this into the work-force after having done some measure another move towards bringing sort of an occupational test, which allegedly people to the cities, and I deplore that. I showed that I would make a good electrician, do not see how this type of experience will I am not entirely against the Bill. I did be available to people who attend high not have a clue about what sort of trade, schools in my electorate. profession or work I should follow, because the only vocational advice I received was Mr. Elliott: They will be able to go out related to the type of job I was looking for, to a farm. and I was told that I would be able to cope with that sort of job. I did not know Mr. SCOTT: The honourable member what I was going into, so during the school would have them out on a farm. What sort year I would have been very happy to go of work would they do on a farm-milk out into the work-force for a few days, a cows or ride horses? month or whatever period is mentioned in the Bill. A Government Member: Round up cattle. But I come back to my statement that I do not think employers then would have been Mr. SCOTT: They might be able to round happy to have students cluttering up the up cattle in the Torres Strait, too. work place, and I am quite confident that they will not now. I am quite confident that The CHAIRMAN: Order! the students, as a result of going into the various work places, will not be able to form any sort of opinions on what vocation Mr. SCOTT: I ask the Minister to pay they should follow. I draw an analogy here attention to what I am saying, and I should with the trial marriage situation. I do not like to hear his answers in this regard. I think that a trial marriage is the way to form know that he has been paying attention to a lasting marital bond. I do not think that what has been said by all speakers in the living with another person on fairly intimate debate, and I give him credit for that. I terms, or living with a series of people for know that he takes his portfolio seriously. that matter, is going to help one's thinking I know that he introduces this legislation to crystallise on a very important area of with the best of intentions, and I say that social activity, and I believe the same applies without hesitation. But I wonder whether to this concept. some sort of student-exchange scheme will be introduced to allow students to go from I do not believe that the student who goes Normanton or Georgetown or Dimbulah or into one work place this week and another Cooktown or Thursday Island to schools in next week is going to be shown anything Cairns or Townsville? Obviously, they could verv constructive to allow him to not all be accommodated at the schools in form these judgments, because the pace is Cairns, so some would have to go to the much too fast. Members should look at the various occupations where apprentices start schools in Townsville. I do not say this serving their time, such as the building facetiously. I want to see these children industry, the electrical trades or the plumb­ benefit from the legislation, if there are ing industry. If students go onto the factory benefits to flow from it. I ask the Minister floor or into an office, are they going to be to give serious consideration to what will be allowed to stand at various key positions available under this legislation to children along the production line and watch what in the more remote areas. goes on, or actually take part in what goes on? I do not think they will be allowed to A Government Member: It IS time you take part in what goes on; I think they will went walkabout. be brushed to one side. I refute the statement of members opposite Mr. SCOTT: It is rather interesting to that Opposition members have used the term note that whenever I receive interjections "cheap labour", because I know that they from the other side of the Chamber, they are Student Education (5 DECEMBER 1978) (Work Experience) Bill 3227

always of a racist nature. They always relate the State and highly commended by various either to my electorate or to the person who educationists throughout Australia. Pro­ represented it before me. I deplore that. fessor Chipman, Professor of Philosophy at the Wollongong University, told me he con­ Mr. Lane interjected. sidered that it was the most advanced investi­ gation into education in Australia that he Mr. SCOTT: There is absolutely nothing had seen. He maintained that the investiga­ wrong with my mind. tion done by the committee was thorough and well worth while, and he was quite The CHAIRMAN: Order! I suggest that convinced that a great deal of good would the honourable gentleman come back to the come out of it. Bill. I believe that the proposed Bill will also be well worth while. I grew up in the Mr. SCOTT: I am very happy to do so, depression years. I had ambitions to do Mr. Hewitt. medicine, but ambitions are sometimes too big for the pocket. In my case, the pocket Mr. Lane interjected. was too small and I had to go to work, and I began work as a turner and fitter. One The CHAIRMAN: And I suggest that the honourable member said in the Chamber honourable member for Merthyr restrain tonight that he just had to do things. I did himself. what I was told in the workshop; I looked on and watched. Years later I witnessed the death of a very fine surgeon-actually, a Mr. SCOTI: I am happy to have your world-famous surgeon-Sir Hugh Devine. In advice on that matter, Mr. Hewitt. I said his last moments, when he was in almost that without departing greatly from the Bill. a subconscious state, he was saying to himself ! am merely proving that members opposite "Look and learn. Watch me and learn.'; know nothing about educational matters in the Cook electorate, so they try to bring Unfortunately, this is one thing that has me down to the common denominator in not been drummed into our young children terms of what they think. I shall ignore what today-"Look at your elders and learn. they say. I regard what happens under this Watch the tradesman and learn. See how Bill to the people in the far areas of the he handles a lathe; see how he handles his State as being very important. tools; see how he handles his chisels and hammers." It could now begin all over I hark back to the remarks of the member again. Children may go to various technical for Port Curtis. I believe that he adopted training places, workshops or offices and a very constructive approach to this Bill, watch tradesmen in action. If they observe that is, that the technical aspects of educa­ and they have intelligent tradesmen who will tion in secondary schools have to be discuss the project with them and discuss the manipulation of the tools with them expanded. Let us not take students out of they cannot help learning. ' the school environment and put them in the work place at that immature and very It will be much better for them to learn inexperienced stage of their development. Let from a practical man than to listen to some us keep them in the schools and expand the of the teachers talking about developing facilities for teaching them technical matters. I do not believe that any student should human relations and relating to one another. leave secondary school without having had All the claptrap that goes on in the Educa­ an opportunity to learn welding or to use a tion Department today means nothing to a lathe or the basic tools. Teaching students child. But a boy of 14 or 15 years who those skills is the only way to fit them to sees a piece of metal being turned into some take their place in the work-force. form will appreciate the beauty of the machine and the value of the machine and Dr. SCOTT-YOUNG (Townsville) (8.34 be impressed by it. Visual training is better p.m.): It gives me great pleasure to speak than a thousand words. All they get from to this Bill. In the last few years, there has some members of the Education Department been a considerable amount of talk about is words, and some of them do not mean education. Most of it has been derogatory. anything. There has been reference to the educational standards of our children. The only good One thing that will have to be given very reports I have heard are those relating to the careful thought when the implementation attempts by our Education Department and of the provisions of the Bill is being worked the Minister to improve the education system out is the role of the co-ordinator or director, in Queensland. or whatever his title is. He should be a Following the withdrawal of the notorious man of great practical experience and under­ SEMP and MACOS materials, the Select standing, and preferably a man with some Committee on Education was formed to technical training. Probably the Education investigate certain aspects of education. That Department will have its finger on the right committee has been well received throughout man for that position. 3228 Student Education [5 DECEMBER 1978] (Work Experience) Bill

The age at which work experience is con­ any chance of being any use whatsoever was templated is a very difficult age. It is an in the workshop. He said it was impracticable age at which the outlook of children can in his type of area. That is very negative be broadened by giving them some practical thinking. In my opinion, there could be very experience in the workshops, in the offices, real benefits to children in areas such as his, in the railway yards, in the machine shops, or any other rural area, by watching, say, in the cement factories-anywhere that they cane or wheat being harvested, and seeing will take children-rather than the plain how those activities related to some of the class-room education that we are giving them problems involved in the various rural now. At this age they are willing to learn. industries. They will relate to each other because they will see how men work with each other, Mr. Scott: Would you agree that it is not co-operate with each other, and discuss the only watching but also doing that is import­ problems of the job with each other. This ant? will solve many of the emotional problems that we find in children of 15 or 16 years Mr. ELLIOTT: Yes, it is very much a case of age at the moment. They will suddenly of doing it, but they have to get out there find that life is not all rosy and that a problem and watch it first. They have to see what goes cannot always be solved by a teacher telling on, and then there must be someone pre­ them how to do it or by looking at a pared to let them have a go. diagram that shows them how to do it. They will see men on the job doing it, and if Mr. Scott: That's right, but employers they listen carefully they will understand the won't do that. problems associated with doing it. Mr. ELLIOTT: Here is one employer who I do not think that employers will be is prepared to do it. We have had students antagonistic to the scheme. They realise the come to our property under various other problems that confront the community today. schemes at different times, and we have let It is not the employers who have caused them do things. the problem of lack of employment oppor­ tunities, and I consider that they will Mr. Scott: Time doesn't mean anything; co-operate to the fullest and probably become time isn't the essence of the job. greatly involved and go out of their way to assist the Education Department with the Mr. ELLIOTT: That is totally incorrect. scheme. Let the honourable member watch a person I consider that the Minister should be on the land who is trying to harvest a couple congratulated for h_aving such a broad vision of hundred tonnes of wheat when a big of the problem. Numerous economists and thunderstorm is threatening. Under those scientists have been trying to solve the prob­ circumstances, let him not try to tell me that lem of unemployment of youth, and I think time has no relevance. I tell him right now that this is the most practical proposal so that we are as concerned as anyone else with far put up by anyone and I congratulate time. the Education Department on it. Most people will realise what a tremendous advantage this scheme will be to the young Mr. ELLIOTT (Cunningham) (8.40 p.m.): people of the community. I commend the I wish to briefly say a few words about the Bill to everyone in the Chamber. I am very Bill. It is probably one of the most far­ pleased to be associated with it. reaching pieces of legislation on the practical side of education that has been put before the Chamber. I wish to go on record as Hon. V. J. BIRD (Burdekin~Minister for supporting the scheme to the utmost. It is Education) (8.44 p.m.), in reply: It is obvious a very practical and useful idea and it will from the debate that, perhaps with the excep­ bring great credit to all those who have had tion of one, all honourable members are anything to do with its implementation. It very much in support of what is proposed in will go down very well with the public, par­ the Bill. They agree entirely on the advan­ ticularly those who have children who will tages that must flow from the legislation have the opportunity to take advantage of it. when young people are able to participate in work of various kinds. The need for practical experience cannot be stressed too strongly. One can learn a lot The honourable member for Wynnum was from courses at school but, as someone on not very sure of what is intended by work my side of the Chamber said, nothing beats experience. We have had considerabl experi­ getting your feet dirty, your boots dirty and ence with the scheme, because it has been your hands dirty by being involved at a piloted in various schools throughout the practical level. The honourable member for State. Experience has shown that it is of Townsville said that it is very important to tremendous advantage to students not only watch how tradesmen and others do things. in high schools but also in the special schools. I take issue with the honourable member In fact, the scheme started in the special for Cook on this point. He more or less said schools. As the debate developed, it became that the only place where the scheme had obvious that the great majority of members Student Education (5 DECEMBER 1978] (Work Experience) Bill 3229 were well and truly aware of what is intended them in envelopes. He described this as and, because of that, they whole-heartedly cheap labour. Again I say that I am supported the introduction of the legislation. bitterly disappointed at his making such a statement. I have seen severely handicapped The member for Wynnum sees the need people, both young and not so young, doing for the payment of wages. At this stage, this work of folding papers and putting them there should not be any suggestion of the into envelopes. To them, this i<; a major payment of wages, as there will not be any achievement. It is perhaps the greatest employer I employee relationship. I want to achievement in their lifetime to date. I make that quite clear. wish that each and every member of this The honourable member for Toowoomba Assembly would take the opportunity to go North spoke of the benefits that he has seen out to the subnormal and opportunity schools flowing from the scheme in operation at the to see what these people are being trained Centenary Heights High School. It is to do and what a wonderful thing it is to regrettable that more members could not them to be able to achieve this. have the opportunity of seeing at first hand The honourable member for Redlands how the schemes operate. said that he had seen a pilot scheme in He spoke also about the need for the operation and was therefore aware of the unions to be in complete agreement with advantages that would accrue to students the scheme. Might I say that the industrial who were given the opportunity of going unions are in complete agreement with what out and gaining experience in different types we are doing. In fact, they assisted in the of employment. preparation of the legislation. It is very The honourable member for Rockhampton gratifying to know that we have their sup­ spoke of the advantage of testing all types port as well as that of employer groups and of employment, and he said that the scheme other people who are interested in the educa­ would give students an opportunity to do tion of young people. that without committing themselves. That The honourable member spoke of the is what the scheme is all about. In the past, benefits accruing to students in subnormal far too many young people were square pegs and opportunity schools. As I said before, in round holes. The legislation will allow them this is where it all started. Anyone who has to find out for themselves whether certain seen the work done by those less-fortunate employment is suitable to them and, in the people in the subnormal and opportunity long run, it can only result in getting more schools will realise the tremendous benefits round pegs into round holes. that have accrued to them. The honourable He also said that it should make schools member expressed pleasure at the fact that even more enjoyable. Let us hope that it the problems concerning compensation had does. If something is made enjoyable, it been overcome. Let me give the assurance becomes far more interesting and advan­ that I would not have been introducing this tageous to the student. He spoke also of legislation unless I was absolutely sure that the community and its relationship with the the matter of compensation had been fully school. This is one relationship that I, as investigated and unless an assurance had Minister for Education, have tried to foster been given that full compensation cover since taking up my portfolio. I certainly will would apply to all those students who will not rest until I see the best possible co­ be participating in the scheme. operation between the school and the com­ I give my assurance to the member for munity, and the community back to the Toowoomba North that the scheme will school. include Government departments, both I give an assurance that we will be mon­ State and Commonwealth, semi-government itoring the types of employment and the instrumentalities and local authorities. attitude of those offering the work exper­ Dr. Lockwood: That is exactly what is ience. We do not want a poor type of needed. employer offering work experience to young people. We do not want employers who will waste the students' time offering work exper­ Mr. BIRD: They will all participate, and I know that they will be only too pleased to ience. \Ve will be monitoring the scheme do so. very closely and we will be recording the attitude of the people who offer work exper­ The honourable member for Woodridge ience to young people. doubted whether all students would have the opportunity to participate. Every student The honourable member was concerned who shows that he or she is interested in the about the period of involvement by students. scheme will be given the opportunity to I assure the Committee that students will participate. The scheme will not apply to not be in the work place for such lengthy only a chosen few. periods that they will be disadvantaged in their other studies in the class-room. They I was bitterly disappointed in the honour­ will be released for a week at a time, four able member's reference to severely handi­ times a year, giving a month of work capped children who fold papers and put experience. 3230 Student Education, &c., Bill [5 DECEMBER 1978] Local Government Act, &c., Bill

The honourable member for Isis said that of doubt over the success of this scheme. the scheme should overcome some of the Let me give him and the other members of disciplinary problems at school. I firmly the Committee the assurance that, from the believe that it will. At present quite a num­ experience we have gained and from the ber of young people who attend school are trialling of this scheme, we have no doubt not academically inclined. They get very about its success. bored with school. If given the opportunity to get out and experience the work situation The honourable member for Townsville for themselves, they will get a better under­ spoke of the need to watch and learn. He standing of why they are at school and why said that visual training is superior to any education is necessary. I believe that the other type of training. I agree whole­ scheme will indeed overcome many of the heartedly with his remarks. I remember the discip1inary problems. days when I was in the R.A.A.F. I under­ took training in aircraft maintenance and I The honourable member for Isis sees the saw films on the theory of flight. I learned advantages to students who are not academ­ more from the films than I could possibly ically inclined. I agree with him entirely. have learned in a week of solid reading. I The sooner society realises that students am very much in favour of the look-and­ today are not necessarily all academically learn type of training. inclined, the better it will be. Never have they all been academically inclined, and I The honourable member feels sure that do not expect that all of them ever will be employers will hasten to co-operate. I have academically inclined. Different students no doubt about that whatever. I agree whole­ have different outlooks on life. It would heartedly with him that they will hasten to be a terrible world if everyone had the same co-operate. outlooks, inclinations and desires. The honourable member for Cunningham The honourable member for Isis also indicated the value of work experience and referred to the increase in community watching and doing. It is obvious that he has involvement. We are trying to foster it to studied this matter and is aware of the the utmost. advantages that will flow from this legislation. The honourable member for Port Curtis Motion (Mr. Bird) agreed to. said that the scheme could involve cheap labour. If students are allowed out for only Resolution reported. one week at a time, four times a year, there is no possibility of their becoming cheap labour and taking positions away from FIRST READING permanent employees. We will certainly be Bill presented and, on motion of Mr. Bird, watching to ensure that that does not occur. read a first time. The honourable member for Pine Rivers spoke of the advantages that will flow to students who go out and get a greater apprec­ LOCAL GOVERNMENT ACT iation of the types of employment available. AMENDMENT BILL (No. 2) He said that they will get an opportunity to ascertain whether they are suited to var­ INITIATION IN COMMITTEE ious types of employment. (Mr. Gunn, Somerset, in the chair) The honourable member for Cook was Hon. R. J. HINZE (South Coast-Minister a little mixed up about the inquiry into for Local Government and Main Roads) (8.59 education. He was not sure whether at this p.m.): I move- time we should be introducing legislation to allow students to gain work experience. I "That a Bill be introduced to amend the can only say that today the chairman of Local Government Act 1936-1978 in certain the committee inquiring into education, the particulars." honourable member for Landsborough, pre­ sented the first of the committee's reports. Honourable members would recall that I It is an interim report and it deals very introduced a Bill to amend the Local Govern­ comprehensively with education. I hope that ment Act in the last session of Parliament, the honourable member for Cook will read but since then a number of proposals have that report as early as possible, as he will been put forward to amend the Act, and, then have a better appreciation of what is following consultation with the Local Govern­ happening in the education system in Queens­ ment Association of Queensland, these land today. I am sure that he will learn that measures have been incorporated in this Bill. there is no need for us to wait for any The first amendment provides that a city further reports from the committee and or a town council be governed by a council that this is not tied up with education. This comprised of not more than 11 and not is not academic education; it is giving students fewer than 7 members, including the chair­ work experience. man, as the Governor in Council from time to time declares by Order in Council. The I was disappointed by his negative attitude Act presently provides that a city or a town to the proposal. He cast more than a shadow council has to consist of 7, 9 or 11 members, Local Government Act (5 DECEMBER 1978] Amendment Bill (No. 2) 3231 including the chairman. This amendment committees (appointed by by-law) higher fees stems from a change in the method of than those payable to ordinary members of selecting mayors or chairmen which may be such committees. Honourable me.<1bers would applied as a result of amendments made to appreciate that a considerable amount of the Act during the last session. extra work devolves on chairmen o:f standing committees, and it is considered that the law As an example, the Gold Coast City should enable a local authority to pay these Council formerly was comprised of 11 mem­ chairmen higher fees than those payable to bers including the mayor, and the city is ordinary members. The City of Brisbane divided into 10 divisions, each returning one Act already provides that the Brisbane City member. Following a recent direction of Council can pay higher salaries to chairmen the Governor in Council that the mayor of standing committees of that council; so of the Gold Coast is to be appointed by in effect this amendment brings the Local elected members from amongst their number, Government Act into line with the City of the council will now consist of 10 members Brisbane Act. from the March 1979 local authority elec­ tions, which conflicts with the present Local government is now firmly entrenched statutory requirements. That conflict will as the third sphere of government and the be overcome by the amendment requiring Government's view is that it should be left that a city or town council consist of not to the discretion of each local authority to more than 11 or fewer than seven members, determine the amount of fees payable to including the chairman. its members, in the same way that members of this State Parliament are not directed on The next amendment reduces from 14 days their salary entitlements by the Common­ to seven days the period of notice required to be given to members of a shire council wealth, but se't the level of payments them­ of an intention to move a motion to rescind selves as a responsible arm of government. or alter a resolution previously passed by a Local authorities are responsible to their council. The pel'iod of notice required electorates every three years, of course, and it presently in the case of city and town coun­ is felt that this will act as a safeguard cHs stands at seven days, and it is considered against the unlikely possibility of a local that the requirement in the case of shire authority aHempting to fix exhorbitant fees councils should be the same. Honourable for payment to its members. members will appreciate that many shire councils, particularly in rapidly developing Another amendment empowers a local areas of the State, are transacting business authority, at its discretion, to delegate to equivalent in extent to that of many city the clerk (or other senior officer) authority councils. Consequently, there is no reason to enter into contracts on behalf of the local for a difference in the period of notice to authority for the execution of any work, or be given of intention to rescind or alter the supply of goods, to an amount not resolutions. The requirement for the giving exceeding $1,000. The power to delegate of seven days' notice of intention to a mem­ authority will apply only where provision ber, prior to the holding of a meeting at to meet the contract price has been made in which a motion to rescind or alter a previous the budget of the local authority, or has resolution is to be moved, should allow been approved by it as emergent or extra­ adequate time for members to consider the ordinary expenditure. At present, the law issue. requires contracts of this type to be entered into by the chairman of the local authority, Another amendment provided for in this or by any t\vo members of the council. It Bill is designed to remove a limitation on is felt that, in the case of small contracts, the total amount of fees that may be paid a local authority should have the power (at its by a local authority to a member in any discretion) to delegate authority to its clerk year for attendance at meetings, deputations or to another senior officer to enter into such or conferences or for making authorised contracts, in the best interests of efficient inspections. The present limitation is $4,000, administration. As an example, it seems as fixed by Order in Council gazetted on 17 incongruous that the chairman or two mem­ April 1976. With the removal of this limita­ bers of a local authority should have to tion, it will be a matter for each local enter into a contract for the purchase of an authority to determine the amount of fees electric typewriter by a council, but that is to be paid to members in the circumstances. what is required as the Jaw now stands. This is in line with the Government's policy of extending as much autonomy as possible Another amendment in this Bill provides to local authorities. Councils, individually, that a local authority may arrange an over­ are the best judges of what they can afford draft of its sewerage fund bank account to to pay members to adequately compensate provide temporary accommodation in that them for their efforts-and the level of fund. The law presently authorises a local payments which their ratepayers will accept. authority to arrange an overdraft of its water I am sure they wii! use this new authority fund bank account, and the amendment will responsibly and judiciously. place the sewerage fund on a similar footing. The amendment also will permit a local That Act does require any balances in a authority to pay to chairmen of standing fund to be carried forward at the end of each 3232 Local Government Act [5 DECEMBER 1978] Amendment Bill (No. 2)

y~ar. As the local authority must pro­ penalties were fixed in 1969 and, having yide a balanced budget each year, control regard to changes in monetary values in the Is therefore exercised over deficits occurring intervening period, it is considered that the in local authoritv funds. If a deficit occurs increased penalties are warranted. It is in the sewerage fund, the local authority stressed that the penalties are maximum would have to increase sewerage charges in penalties, and the amount of a penalty the next year to provide a balanced budget. imposed for a particular offence is a matter The Auditor-General raises no objection to for decision by the court that adjudicates on this amendment. the action. The next amendment in this Bill provides A further amendment empowers a local that to become eligible for the allowance of authority to make a by-law authorising its discount for the prompt payment of rates, officers and servants to seize, take possession a ratepayer must, as well as paying the of and deal with a dog found without current year's rates, pay all arrears of rates authority on any Crown premises, or where too. Legal advice to the Government is t~ such action is requested by the person in the effect that, under existing law, a rate­ charge of the premises concerned. This payer is eligible for the allowance of discount amendment is designed specifically to enable on the current year's rates if he pays the local authorities to deal with dogs on school whole of the current year's levy within the premises, where the dogs are found to be discount period-even if he (or she) did not threatening or otherwise annoying children pay arrears of rates on the land concerned. attending the school. Complaints in this respect are quite frequent-and growing, in The basic idea of allowing discounts of many areas. Under the provisions of ,this cou:se, is to enable a local authority to amendment, following a request by the school achieve early and full collection of rates. principal, a local authority officer will be Local authorities, and the Local Government empowered to enter the school premises, seize A~so~iation consider that it is wrong in an offending dog and deal with it in a pnnc1ple for a ratepayer to receive discount similar manner to a dog that is found on current rates when he (or she) does not wandering at large on a road. The amend­ meet all commitments and arrears in respect ment has been discussed with my colleagues of the land concerned. The Government the Honourable the Minister for Education supports this view, and the law is accordingly and the Honourable the Deputy Premier and bemg amended through this Bill. Minister for Health and is supported by them. Another amendment provides that the clerk Another amendment included in this Bill of a local authority will have to prepare and empowers a local authority to make a con­ present to his council, on or before 31 tribution to a drainage board, constituted August in each year, financial statements under the Water Act, towards the cost of for the preceding year. These include a state­ works (carried out by the board) that are ment of receipts and disbursements for each of benefit to the local authority. With the fund, a statement of rates and charges made prior approval of the Minister, a contribution and levied (including arrears), a statement of can be made in respect of works outside the loan liabilities, a statement of contracts area of the local authority. I am advised entered into during the year and statements that in some cases local authorities have of available assets and sundry debtors and arranged with a drainage board to discharge creditors. At present these statements have storm-water drainage from town areas into to be presented to a council at its budget drainage works constructed by the board, meeting in each year. and in these circumstances it is proper that the local authority should be in a position to Some local authorities like to adopt their make a contribution towards the board's cost budgets early in the financial year and, in of its works. The honourable member for these cases, the clerk finds great difficultv Hinchinbrook has been prominent in making in having all the necessary statements typed representations to me on this, and I acknow­ and collated before the budget meeting. ledge his role in the finalisation of this amend­ The budget has to show estimated and actual ment. At least one local authority already receipts and disbursements for the previous has made such a contribution towards the year, and it is considered that there is no cost of such water works and, accordingly, need for all the financial statements to be the amendment is given retrospective prepared and presented before the budget application. meeting, provided they are presented to the local authority on or before 31 August in The next amendment provides that where each year. This is the latest day for adoption a land subdivision plan, lodged for registra­ of the budget, set by the Act. tion with the Registrar of Titles, is withdrawn with the consent of the Registrar, it may­ Another provision of this Bill increases with similar consent-subsequently be from $200 to $500 the amount of ,the re-entered in the Titles Office, notwithstand­ maximum penalty that may be imposed for ing that more than six months has elapsed a breach of a local authority by-law and since the date of its approval by a local it also increases from $20 to $50 the authority. Under the Local Government Act maximum daily penalty that may be imposed as it now stands, a plan of subdivision has to for a by-law breach. The present maximum be lodged in the Titles Office within six Local Government Act [5 DECEMBER 1978] Amendment Bill (No. 2) 3233 months of its approval by a local authority. The form of on-the-spot penalty notice The Registrar of Titles has advised that in and the amount of the penalty (expected to certain cases it is necessary for a plan of be $25, as in the case of littering and water­ subdivision to be withdrawn after lodgment­ restriction breaches) will be prescribed by for example, to enable priority of registration regulations to be made by the Governor in of another document. Council. The amendment provides that in legal proceedings for an offence against the It can happen that by the time the plan provision, a statement in the complaint that of subdivision is relodged in the Titles Office, land is under the control of a local authority, a period of more than six months has elapsed or that a person has failed to pay an on-the­ since the date of its approval by the local spot penalty within the prescribed time, is authority. It could be contended that in to be taken as evidence of the complaint these circumstances the approval of the plan in question unless the contrary is proved. of subdivision lapses and that a fresh applica­ tion for approval would need to be made Honourable members would appreciate that to the local authority. This, of course, would in areas such as the Gold Coast or the entail needless costs and delays for the sub­ Sunshine Coast, extensive problems are division, affecting all parties. experienced by local authorities in dealing with illegal campers, especially over busy To overcome this, we propose to amend holiday periods. Illegal campers can create the law to provide that, in these circum­ quite serious health hazards, and it is stances, the Registrar of Titles may consent necessary that local authorities be given to the relodgment of a plan of subdivision, necessary authority to enable speedy action notwithstanding that a period of six months to be taken against these offenders. This is had expired since the date of its approval. I the intention of this amendment, which is am advised that the registrar already is doing supported by local authorities and by the this in certain circumstances, and the amend­ Local Government Association. ment is designed to regularise the position. The final amendment included in this Bill increases from $200 to $500 the maximum The Government and local authorities in penalty that may be awarded for a breach several areas have been concerned for some of any provision of the Local Government time about the growing incidence of illegal Act for which no specific penalty is pre­ camping on council-controlled areas such as scribed. The present maximum penalty of public beaches or parkland, and this Bill $200 was fixed in 1969 and, as I explained makes an attempt to come to grips with this previously in regard to another provision, problem more effectively. bearing in mind the changes in monetary values in the intervening period, it is con­ An amendment in the Bill empowers an sidered that an increase of this nature is authorised officer of a local authority to completely justified. issue an on-the-spot penalty notice to a person found camping on land under the I think it will be appreciated from this brief summary that the amendments con­ control of a local authority (for example, on tained in this Bill are designed to facilitate a beach or in a park) in contravention of the more efficient operation and administra­ its by-laws. Where a person refuses to tion of local government in Queensland. declare his name and address to the authorised They have been discussed in some detail with officer, or states a name and address reason­ local authority representatives, and, in par­ ably suspected to be false, the amendment ticular, I would like to thank the Queensland empowers the authorised officer to take the Local Government Association for its part person concerned to a police station or watch­ in the process of finalising these amendments. house, where he may be detained until his correct name and address are ascertained. Mr. PREST (Port Curtis) (9.14 p.m.): The Opposition realises that some of the proposed The on-the-spot penalty notice proposed amendments are the result of changes that would be identified by a serial number, and have occurred during the past 12 months, would identify, by his (or her) full name and while others are machinery changes that are usual place of residence, the person to whom necessary to update the Local Government it is given. It would state, in general terms Act. I am of the opinion that the proposed the offence committed and would inform th~ amendments do not go far enough. We on alleged offender that if he (or she) did not this side believe that the whole Act needs desire the matter to be determined in a reviewing. At the September conference in court hearing, he (or she) could pay the Townsville such a motion was moved, but it prescribed sum (by way of penalty) to the was defeated because local authority repre­ relevant local authority within the time sentatives were told at that time that it would allowed, upon which he (or she) would not be far too much work to review the whole be liable to further penalty or costs. of the Local Government Act. There is a need for a review of shire boundaries and a The notice also would inform the person review of divisions within shires. There is too that he (or she) had the right to decline to much inequality in the divisions. In some pay the penalty and allow the matter to be divisions three aldermen are representng only determined in a court hearing. about 270 people. 3234 Local Government Act (5 DECEMBER 1978] Amendment Bill (No. 2)

We realise that some of the suggested to delve into the Gladstone City Council, but changes are machinery provisions. One I par­ he did not have the intestinal fortitude to go ticularly refer to is the provision under which on with it. He made a lot of noise but he a city or town council will have not more took no action. than 11 and not fewer than seven representa­ tives. This will allow areas containing 10 Mr. Hinze: All the trouble started in divisions to elect their own chairman or your time. mayor. We go along with that as being necessary. Mr. PREST: Oh no, it did:1't. But I do not want to go into that; the Minister is Under the Bill, the chairman of a com­ only trying to take up my time. mittee will be entitled to receive more than other members of that committee. That Today we have an airlines strike because might be acceptable in the larger cities, where Governments would not accept the word of committees handle a lot of work. In the the Arbitration Commission about payments. provincial cities, some committees have only A 11 of us know that 90 per cent of local three members, one of whom is the chair­ authorities in Queensland are controlled by man. His work-load is not a heavy one; he National Party members. That is why the merely chairs the meetings. At meetings Minister is giving his blood-brothers an there is discussion on the reports made by opportunity to fleece the ratepayers of the the engineer and other officers of the coun­ State. That is exactly what will happen. I cil. The committee accepts, rejects or amends will show the Minister what has been done the recommendations, and probably the by his blood-brothers in local authorities. reports are held over for the general meeting of the council. I do not see why the chair­ Mr. Hinze: Have a talk to Warburton. man of such a committee should be paid any more than the other members of the council. Mr. PREST: Have a talk to Bourke. Mr. Frawley: They paid you more than Mr. Hinze: Have a talk to Shaw. you were worth when you were mayor of Gladstone. Mr. PREST: Never mind about that. They are doing it legally. The Minister is giving Mr. PREST: That could be the case, but I his colleagues an opportunity to do it illeg­ think they realised I was worth a lot more ally. than I got. I never took it, either; I got it legally. When I left local government in 1976, I was paying rates of $359.32. Two years later, As I say, the chairman of a committee at the end of June 1978, I paid $526.57 on should not be paid any more. If that is the same block of land. That increase was done, it should not be done by by-law but by brought about not by inflation, but by mis­ resolution, the same way as all other pay­ management on the part of the Gladstone ments are made. After the election, it is City Council. The Minister knows who is decided by resolution how much the mayor in control of that council. It is a National and aldermen will be paid. Party supporter. I turn now to the main provision of the In 1975, he came to me and asked if I Bill. \\'hen the Bill becomes law, there will wou1d pay him $45 an hour to attend council be no limit to what members of a local meetings. I said, "What rot!" He said, "That authority will be able to pay themselves over is what I could get for being a solicitor." a period of 12 months. Previously there was I replied, "You should have thought of that a maximum of $4,000, plus expenses, for the before you came onto the council. How­ mayor and deputy mayor. We are now ever, put it in writing so that we can discuss getting to a situation which I thought I it at full council." He said, "Oh, if you're would never see. The Queensland Govern­ not going to support me, I wouldn't do that." ment is giving authority to any person in Now, however, that gentleman is in control. local government to state the wage he thinks Whereas in 1976 the councillors were paid he is worth. There are people in local gov­ an allowance of $1,250, he now wants an ernment who go in there only-- allowance of $10,000, plus a motor car, and $30 for each meeting that he attends. Mr. Hinze: Don't you trust the people engaged in local government? It is time that the council ordinances and by-laws defined a meeting, a deputation and Mr. PREST: I think I have explained that a conference. Members of harbour boards to the Minister. He trusts them more than are paid a fee for attending one meeting a I do. I have been proved right; he has been day. In contrast, some city councils may hold proved wrong. as many meetings as they like on any one day. For example, they can hold a meeting Mr. Hinze interjected. lasting approximately half an hour. They can then hold another meeting, such as a Mr. PREST: I ask that the Minister let me recreation meeting, followed by a health use my time to make my own speech. I will meeting and a finance meeting. The meet­ talk with him later. He had his opportunity ings can go on and on and on. For each Local Government Act (5 DECEMBER 1978] Amendment Bill (No. 2) 3235 meeting the councillor is paid $30. By the many meetings they attend. If they were Bill, the Minister will be giving the councillors allowed to, councils would hold meetings an open order to take what they want, with involving only one department, rather than no limit. In other words, the ratepayers will holding combined meetings. It is well to be fleeced. remember that councillors are on fire brigade boards, water boards, electricity boards and In 1975, an alderman who stood against so on. the late Marty Hanson made a claim for payment after going down to say hello to I am concerned about on-the-spot fines a group of schoolchildren who called in to for camping. We should define a camp. I look over the civic centre. One morning, know that the Minister is interested in parks, another fellow, who represented a semi­ beaches and so on. \Vhen a person allows government board and the council, attended a friend's caravan to be used in his yard a meeting and claimed from both bodies. The for a day or a week, is it a camp? Can same afternoon he met a deputation from he be fined $25? How often can an officer Woolworths, a second deputation and then impose an on-the-spot fine? What is the turned up for a finance meeting. He claimed position when a council officer finds a camp the allowance for each of the meetings that on a creek bank, a beach or elsewhere? Can day. Instead of protecting fellows such as he impose a fine only once a day or can he that, the Minister should be tightening the come back every hour and impose another controls and telling them that they can $25 fine? Fancy giving a city council officer claim for only one meeting a day. the right to arrest a person and take him to the police station if he thinks that he Mr. Fraw!cy: \Vere you mayor then? is being given a false name-if he is not satisfied that the name given is true and Mr. PREST: No, I was not. In fact, I correct! What are we coming to? We have was the one who drew the attention of the a police State. On Thursday 1,300 police mayor to the fact that some persons were will be lined up to take away some of our claiming for six meetings a day. From that civil rights. Just lately, a Gold Coast City date onwards, we were not allowed to be Council officer issued a $25 fine against a shown the payments that were made. girl of nine or 10 for throwing away a lolly paper. Some people becOiille over­ I wiil be opposing this provision very officious and carry things too far. That is strongly. However, I must admit that in where the Minister has fallen down. He has one sense it will give a benefit to the fellow given too much power to local authoritv who, because of the fact that he would lose officers. I should like the Minister to explain money, could not afford to offer his ser­ how often a council officer can visit a camp vices to the public. If he is reimbursed the and issue a $25 fine. money that he loses, he may offer his ser­ vices. That is the one good principle. We believe that local authority officers should have power to enter a school to catch Mr. Him:e interjected. a dog, but the Bi11 does not go far enough. The local authority health inspector, whose Mr. PREST: I point out to the Minister responsibility it is, should have power to that, on the other hand, there is the money­ hungry fellow to whom I referred a moment inspect a school for dogs at any time. ago; the man who wants to be a solicitor, It is well known that school toilet facilities mayor and so on and wants to be given an provided to serve 800 children are not air-conditioned car. That means he is in extended even when 1,400 or 1,500 children the $40,000 to $50,000-a-year bracket. attend the school. The city council cannot impose the same conditions on school toilets Mr. Framey: Rubbish! as it would insist on with private enterprise. We subscribe to allowing the local authorities Mr. PR.EST: It is not rubbish. The honour­ to apply to government instrumentalities the able member is trying to say that his brother same restrictions and conditions as apply to on the Redcliffe Peninsula will not be so private enterprise. bad. I hope he is not. Lf he takes after the honourable member, he may not be a We believe that the authorities should be bad guy at heart. able to go into schoolgrounds to remove a dog that might be a nuisance to the children. Mr. Bertoni interjected. A child might be in fear of being bitten. Dogs will always congregate at schools. They Mr. PREST: A full-time councillor is in follow children to school and normally are the $20,000 bracket, but a councillor who given a titbit such as a lolly or a biscuit. serves for about an hour a day is totally I do not think that there is any great prob­ differenc. I believe in fair play. I do not lem of dogs biting children. We go along believe in giving anyone an open order or with the principle of local authorities being the total say on what he is worth. The empowered to enter schoolgrounds at any Minister is allowing these people to rob the time to conduct inspections on health ratepayers. If it is to be an open order, problems. let us say that councillors will be paid for only one meeting a day, irrespective of how Mr. R. J. Gibbs interjected. 3236 Local Government Act [5 DECEMBER 1978] Amendment Bill (No. 2)

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. another month." The applicant went down Gunn): Order! The honourable member for the drain financially, solely because of that Wolston is not in his usual place in the provision. It is excellent that the Minister Chamber. has introduced that proposal.

Mr. PREST: It must have been a very We heard a lot from the Opposition spokes­ wild and savage dog. It would be about the man on the proposal to remove the limitation only thing that has bitten the honourable of payments to councillors. He showed a member for Barron River and got a result. shocking lack of understanding of local authorities in Queensland, and the fact that Many of the proposals contained in the he is the Opposition spokesman on local Bill are machinery. We will be studying government frightens me. If ever the day the Bill when it is printed to see just what comes that the Opposition becomes the is in it. We hope that we will be able to Government, and God help us if it does, we agree to all of the proposals. However, the will be in big trouble in local government Minister can be almost certain that the in Queensland because the honourable mem­ Opposition will move at least one amendment ber for Port Curtis knows not a thing about to the Bill. the great variety of local authority practices in Queensland. Some meet for half an hour Mr. AKERS (Pine Rivers) (9.32 p.m.): I a month and have no need to form com­ rise to support the introduction of this Bill mittees, whereas others have members of to amend the Local Government Act. As committees who meet two or three days a the MiniSiter said, it is the second Bill intro­ week. The lack of understanding and the duced this session to amend the Act. The mistrust of members of local authorities Local Government Act is the statute most shown by the honourable member for Port frequently amended in this place. Regular Curtis, as I said, frightens anybody who is amendment of an Act is usually regarded as involved with local government in Queens­ a bad sign. It is often seen as a sign of land. I will certainly be making that known bad administration. In this case it shows to the people in local government. the vitality of local government in Queens­ land. In his diatribe against local authorities, the honourable member for Port Curtis An Oppmoition Member interjected. queried whether chairmen of committees should receive extra payment. As a former Mr. AKERS: Doesn't the honourable chairman of the busiest committee of my member believe in vitality in local govern­ council, I did a great deal of work in ment in Queensland? Is that what he is getting material prepared for meetings, talk­ saying? ing to various groups and representing the There is a constant improvement and council around the shire and outside it, and change in local government in Queensland. I believe. that people in those positions There is a constant input from almost 900 deserve extra payment. This amendment will members of local authorities in Queensland. allow a responsible council to make provision All of them have a direct line to the Minister for extra payment if it sees the need for it. and the Director of Local Government, Mr. Jacobs, and they receive an excellent hearing The Minister also mentioned an amend­ from the Minister. ment allowing an overdraft provision in sewerage funds, and I see this as one making With one exception, the points outlined by the Minister are excellent. The proposal it possible for councils to assist in relieving to remove the 14 days' notice of motion for unemployment in Queensland. One of the changing an earlier provision by a council problems that have been raised with mem­ is one that the Pine Rivers Shire Council bers of the committee on unemployment by and I have striven hard for, for quite a few local authorities has been the problem of months. The r~ason it originally became loan-raising. They have said that they have obvious, besides the usual frustration of not been left in the position of not being able having a chanc~ to get things done, was that to start on jobs until later in the financial the Pine Riv<:rs Shire Council introduced year than they intended. This has been virtually fortflightly meetings. That meant obvious in my own council, and I think this that, unless <>. notice of motion was out before amendment will mean that local authorities one meetin~;, it could not be dealt with until after the next one, so there was up will be able to start work earlier, that it to a mon1.h's delay. In this area only 300 will be done more cheaply and that more square mites, with its excellent communica­ employment will be created. tions, 14 days' notice is not necessary. The provision requiring that all arrears of The need became really obvious when an rates be paid before a discount is available applicant obtained a permit from the council, on current general rates is surely a logical got into dire financial straits, and wanted one. Why should anybody be able to obtain to change the permit. The council agreed a discount for the prompt payment of one to the change in the permit but had to say, bill when he owes just as much for a period "We all agree with you, but we have to wait at least 12 months earlier? Local Government Act [5 DECEMBER 1978] Amendment Bill (No. 2) 3237

Another excellent provision allows the debated other amendments to the Local Gov­ separation of the adoption of the budget from ernment Act. Now we are altering it again. the presentation of the financial statements. It makes me wonder whether the better­ At present these statements have to be equipped members of the staff do not deal presented to a council at its budget meeting with the amendments in the first place, or each year. This is one reason why many whether in fact the Minister has suddenlv local authorities are not introducing their decided to take notice of what has been said budgets until as late as possible in the year. by some of the shire councils and city coun­ I did not understand why this was happening cils in the State. until a year or so ago. The introduction of this provision will mean that local authorities I know that some city councils and local will not face increased costs caused by the government councils have been pushing for late introduction of their budgets. If the some of the amendments that we have before budget is introduced early, the rate notices us tonight. I compliment the Minister for go out early, the rates are collected earlier suddenly deciding to take notice of the people and so local authorities gain extra interest. who have been working out in the field, as it were. To me, it is very pleasing to see some In a shire the size of the Pine Rivers of the amendments being made. Others, how­ Shire, the introduction of the budget a couple ever, do not go as far as we would like. of months earlier than normal could mean extra income of the order of $40,000 or I think that there is a lot of merit in the $50,000. This provision will now enable local proposal to bring the conditions of city coun­ authorities to do that, and there will be no cils, particularly the Brisbane City Council, excuse for a local authority's holding up the into line with those of other councils. Some introduction of its budget. It will also mean councils are possibly not doing as much work that members of councils will have more as the Brisbane City Council is, but some are control over what happens as far as their doing quite a bit more work than other city shire's expenditure is concerned. At the councils. I believe that those councils need moment expenditure has usually been going a little latitude. Local authorities have been on for three months before the budget is running quite successfully, with the exception approved, so this provision enabling them to of the Gold Coast City Council, and the Min­ bring the budget forward earlier will be a ister took quick toll of the people down great advantage. there. We heard criticism from an Opposition The member for Pine Rivers referred to spokesman of the provision that will allow the amendment of the section dealing with dog catchers in local authorities to enter notices of motion. That provision is needed Crown land to catch dogs. The safeguard has in the Pine Shire, he said, because the council been provided whereby the permission of the there holds fortnightly meetings. The provis­ person in charge of the school or hospital ion is needed by councils that do not hold must be sought first before the dog catcher fortnightly meetings, because during the enters upon Crown land. month certain things will come up, which councils will see a need to alter. They ought Recently there was a problem with a Great to have an opportunity to present a notice Dane at a schDOl in my electorate. I know of motion so that it is discussed at the next that they are supposed to be gentle dogs, but meeting. it was frightening the children at the school. What amuses me about this matter is that It is said, to put it politely, that it was we hear discussion about certain conditions being over-friendly with them, and I think affecting one subdivider or another. Sub­ it had the wrong intentions towards some of dividers are not the only people with whom them. The principal had a real problem in councils have to deal. At various times not­ getting rid of that dog. If he could have ices of motion are needed to deal with called the council dog catcher to cart it off, individuals who grow zucchinis or other crops. the children would have been much safer. Some shire councils are much busier than I strongly support the introduction of this some town councils because some towns, Bill. I commend the Minister and his staff I believe, have reached a state of stagnation. for bringing it forward, and I urge the Com­ That is a pretty rough word to use. It is no mittee to support it. fault of theirs that it has happened. Some very nice towns in Queensland have not grown very much in the last few years, Mr. KRUGER (Murrumba) (9.41 p.m.): I whereas other areas, such as the Pine Rivers rise to support the Bill and to say that on Shire and the Logan Shire, have grown the whole I am in agreement with what was rapidly. These shire councils have a lot to said by the Opposition spokesman on local do. A lot more work is required to admin­ government, the honourable member for Port ister those shires than possibly some towns Curtis. We see a lot of good in the propos­ that have greater populations but smaller als. We also see that some of them have not areas. Growth has stopped in these towns gone far enough. As I said the other night at this time. when discussing another Bill, it surprises me that we have to keep altering these Bills so The fee paid to councillors is a matter frequently. It is not so long ago that \Ve that worries me. I know the attitude of many 3238 Local Government Act (5 DECEMBER 1978] Amendment Bill (No. 2) councillors. They have agreed to take a experience over the years, that some coun­ certain amount of money. The matter has cillors are not fair dinkum. The action been debated on a number of occasions, that he has had to take ~n the p~st makes and I know of instances in which people that obvious. on committees have decided that they ought to receive more money than The proposed provision relating to the those who are councillors only. Usually overdraft on sewerage budgets is quite a the people on committees vote them­ good one. Obviously, the Minister is bringing selves and their mates into office. In some i,t into line with a similar provision relating cases, because it is expected of them, coun­ to water budgets. I say that, if it is good cillors who are not on committees and do enough for water, it is good enough for not attend as many meetings have to do sewerage. The quality of the pipes is a damned sight more work. They are often slightly different, but otherwise conditions much better councillors than people who are much the same. The amount of monev sit on committees administering by-laws about svent on sewerage work today indicates quie which they know very little. clearly that councils should be able to borrow in order to be able to carry out the work, Some councillors on committees are very and I believe that the action now proposed keen to get on with the job, and possibly is warranted. they may be worth more. But it makes me wonder how far we should go in this field The discounting of rates also seems to be if, simply because Joe Blow is a particularly quite a good idea. It is only fair and good councillor, all the others should be reasonable that a person who owes money to treated in the same manner. The provision the council should nnt be entitled to any could be hard on certain councillors, since discount on rates until the debt is paid. those on committees could say, "Because The increase in the penalty for anyone we are on committees, we are going to breaking the Local Government Act is in take an extra $2,000 or $3,000 a year over line with inflation. Even though it may those who are not members of committees." seem to be fairly steep, one has to accept that in fact it is only in line with the No doubt the Minister is hoping that, inflation that has occurred-with the assist­ with the recent amendments relating to ance of the present Federal Government. boundaries and so on, he will have quite a number of people of his own political As to the provision relating to dogs on colour as members of councils. I would Crown land---,the honourable member for think that the move to alter the provisions Pine Rivers spoke wbout a massive Great relating to payments is for the benefit of those Dane. Perhaps a bronco buster should have people. I hope I am wrong. I know that been called in to move it. However, I the position will differ to this extent: that would agree with the honourable member there will not be quite as many of those that, because of its size, a Great Dane people on the councils after March as there would be very frightening to a small child. are at present. Recently I have travelled Whether the dog is big or small really is fairly extensively throughout the State. It immaterial. As the honourable member is a foregone conclusion tha,t, after the next for Port Curtis said earlier, dogs do tend local government elections, there will not be to go to the schoolyard and see what cmmbs as many councils under National PaNy they can pick up. Usually they are fairly leadership. They certainly are not as friendly to children, but if the schoolteacher popular as might be thought by some honour­ or somebody else wants them removed, or able members in this Chamber. In fact, I anybody complains, it is up to the pound believe that after next March there will be keeper in the shire to remove the dog. Any many more members of the A.L.P. on terrorising by the dog or anything of that councils, and at least they will be realistic sort would then be overcome. about the money that they pay themselves as members of local authorities. The contribution to the drainage board seems to me to be quite a good idea. In When the Pine Rivers Shire Council dis­ some areas I think the local authorities should cussed i,ts budget recently, it said that the contribute to such a scheme. Possibly the chairman of the shire was not worth any State Government should be going much fur­ more than councillors. He does not receive ther than it is with this type of problem. If very much more than the ordinary coun­ that is not to be, and if the local authority cillors, and in my opinion he has virtually is concerned and wants to contribute, it a full-time job. I am not saying that because seems fair and reasonable that it should be of the particular chairman who is in office; able to do so. I am saying it because I am aware of the job that he has to do. Irrespective of who I am concerned about the period in excess is in the chair in that shire, he should receive of six months for the relodging of subdivision much more money than councillors receive. plans. We know the situation that has occur­ I think it gives a good indication of what red in the Pine Rivers Shire, and the same happens in a shire if the councillors are not could happen in other shires. As the Minister fair dinkum about their job. The Minister indicated, something might occur which for Local Government and Main Roads would mean that the subdivider wanted to would know as well as I do, because of his lodge other plans. I believe that it is the Local Government Act [5 DECEMBER 1978] Amendment Bill (No. 2) 3239

responsibility of the subdivider to ensure that Mr. POWELL: Surely the honourable his plans are so drawn that they do not member is not trying to tell me that unions upset the procedure of the council. I am a are similar to local authorities, which are little doubtful about the provision, but I am elected by popular vote? There we see the not completely opposed to it. There could be height of stupidity. Apparently the honour­ circumstances in which there was good reason able member believes that unions should be for someone to go a little over time. It is considered as similar to local authorities, something that should be watched closely so which are elected by the people. How on that it does not get out of hand. earth could we ever take seriously the argu­ ments put up by the honourable member? The honourable member for Pine Rivers talked about easing the unemployment situa­ Persons in local government should be tion. Anything that we can do to relieve able to decide the fees that they will be unemployment would be worth while. It paid. Every three years they face the people, seems odd to me that the Government should as do all other elected representatives in the suddenly set up a committee to look into community. If the people are not satisfied unemployment. It is now talking about using with the representation that they are receiv­ budgeting for sewerage systems to overcome ing from local authorities, they have the unemployment. It is an appropriate time for ultimate decision to make at the ballot-box. the Government to be looking at that. It is not so long since the last election, but it is My electorate contains five local author­ not too long till the next election, either. ities. If we are to get into local authorities The Government has suddenly realised that people of high calibre, they will have to be the people of Queensland will not accept the paid for the time they spend in the perform­ present situation much longer. They are going ance of their duties. The same remarks to object, and this move on the Government's apply to representatives in the State and part is just another stand to try to overcome Federal Governments. If it is apparent to the problem of unemployment. Unfortunately the electors that their representatives are for the people of Queensland, neither this paying themselves too much money, the Government nor the Federal Government electors will no doubt give them short shrift. knows what it is about in this field and This amendment is warranted, and I am sure until there is a great change in the controllin~ that the local authorities look forward to bodies in both the State and Federal spheres~ its implementation. unemployment will not be overcome. This For the life of me, I cannot see why last-ditch stand is not what we are lookin<> Opposition members would complain about for. I hope that the unemployment situatio~ it-unless, of course, personal experience has will be looked at in a more realistic manner. taught them, with their greedy little minds, Mr. POWELL (Isis) (9.53 p.m.): It gives that they would want more than they are me great pleasure to support the Minister's worth. That, I would not doubt. introduction of the Bill. I listened with great The Bill provides also for on-the-spot interest to his remarks, and I was interested fines for illegal camping. I am sure that to hear some of the comments made bv local authorities will welcome this amend­ honourable members opposite. " ment. My electorate contains Fraser Island, Whenever members opposite find difficulty which is very difficult for the local authority to administer. One problem is that people in presenting a logical argument, they resort who camp on the island in an untidy fash­ to personal attacks. The way they carry on ion-it is not illegal-do so on vacant Crown with their character assassination is quite land, and therefore are not subject to the unpalatable to me. This was particularly evi­ control of the local authority. I have urged dent when Opposition spokesmen were talking the local authority to ask the Lands Depart­ about the proposition that is being put for­ ment to change the dedication from "Vacant ward with regard to fees. The main Opposi­ Crown land" to "Camping reserve". I tion spokesman on local government matters believe that the Hervey Bay Town Council launched into a character assassination, as has put forward that proposition to the man­ best he could, of the mayor of Gladstone. I agement committee that is currently deciding on a management policy for Fraser Island. found it quite disgusting the way he carried on. He could not find a shred of truth on There has to be some control over popular which to hang his argument, so he had to camping areas. It is a shame that such con­ spend a considerable amount of time criticis­ trol is needed. It would be delightful if in ing his successor. remote areas such as Fraser Island and other beach resorts people could simply go I have heard Opposition spokesmen talk and camp without any control at all. Unfor­ ad nauseam about the Government's giving tunately, however, a sma!l percentage of local government the sort of authority it louts in the community mess up the camping ought to have. Here the Government is say­ spots and leave their rubbish for somebody ing to local authorities, "\Ve regard you as a else to clean up, thereby making it necessary responsible group of persons. Set your own to introduce this amendment. fees." That is the way it ought to be. Another amendment empowers an officer 1'\'lr. P:re.-.-1: The unions are asking for that. of a local authority to do something about 3240 Local Government Act (5 DECEMBER 1978] Amendment Bill (No. 2) straying animals on Crown land. Previous At this stage I wish to point out to the speakers have talked about dogs in school­ Committee the problem which has occurred grounds. As a teacher, I was aware of that in the Isis Shire, and which will occur in problem. I know, too, how difficult it is for most of the councils on the coast when the school principal to get rid of such dogs revaluations take place. The Government or to get someone to do something about must face up to a very difficult situation. them. Quite often the matter is left to It must either change the Local Government a voluntary organisation such as the R.S.P.C. Act to allow local authorities to rate as they I am pleased to see that the Act will be will or, alternatively, it will have to change amended to empower the local authority to the Valuation of Land Act to allow different take appropriate action. criteria to be used in valuations. In the town of Childers, the valuation was $446,130. Another problem that springs to mind, and In 1978, it increased to $1,467,360, an one that other people have not thought of, increase of 328.9 per cent. In the town of is that created by cattle straying on vacant Woodgate, the valuation was $178,330. In Crown land. I am sure that honourable 1978, it rose to $3,021,990, an increase of members who travel on the Bruce Highway 1,694.6 per cent. For the remainder of are familiar with the strip of road between the shire, the valuation increased from Maryborough and Childers. Adjacent to that $2,216,190 to $6,965,950, an increase of 314.3 road is a large area of vacant Crown land. per cent. A few sly people choose to graze cattle on this land, without a lease over it. They turn The council then had to strike a rate and the cattle loose and let them go. Anyone it opted for 3c in the dollar over the whole who has travelled on that road knows how shire. The result was disastrous. In the town serious is the hazard created by straying of Childers, where the valuation had increased cattle on this unfenced land. by 328.9 per cent, the rate dropped by 14 per cent, so that the council received $7,285 This amendment will clear up a little prob­ less than in the previous year. In the town lem. When I receive complaints about the of Woodgate, where the valuation increased straying cattle, I get on to the local authority by 1,694.6 per cent, the revenue of the which says, "That is vacant Crown land. It council increased by $70,151, or 342 per has nothing to do with us." On the other cent. In the remainder of the shire-the hand, the Lands Department says, "That is cane and cattle lands-the revenue decreased a local authority problem; it has nothing by $45,884, or 18 per cent. Those figures to do with us." As is often the case with disclose that something serious has occurred. problems that are difficult to solve, I have been given the run-around. I welcome the Taking the average increase in the valua­ amendments. They are indeed necessary. tion of land at Woodgate, the valuation of I am sorry to say that I listened in vain an ordinary block has increased from $200 for the Minister to announce a further to $6,000, and the rate levy has risen from amendment. Honourable members may recall $23 to $180. It must be remembered that in that on 21 November I spoke of the rating the town of Woodgate, which is so typical problem in my electorate as it affects urban of many coastal towns to which people have and rural land. At the time, I read to the retired, many of the people are on fixed Assembly a motion carried at a very well­ incomes. While $23 a year in rates seems attended meeting in my electorate. The infinitesimal considering the average rate meeting requested the Government to alter today, an increase to $180 is indeed disas­ the Local Government Act to permit local trous for the people living there. authorities to levy a lower rate in the dollar What is the Isis Shire Council to do? on urban land than on rural land, where How does it overcome this problem? One of inflated valuations make such action desirable. the suggestions was that it should introduce A rider was added that this action be taken financial divisions. If it did, the stupid situa­ only with the approval of the Governor in tion would occur that some cane land would Council. be rated at one rate and other cane land I made a plea to the Minister to do some­ would be rated at a higher rate. I am sure thing about it, and I pay tribute to him on that no honourable member would suggest the way that he subsequently received a that that is a sensible and viable alternative. deputation from my electorate and diligently The council could have adopted a policy tried to amend the Act as suggested. I am under which the townships of W oodgate greatly disappointed that the Minister was and Childers would be regarded as one urban unable to convince others that this should area, and the remainder of the area would be done. The people who refused to allow be regarded as a benefited area. That is the Local Government Act to be changed are commonly called Chinese accounting. I do at fault. When I listen to some of the com­ not think that that is acceptable, either. So ments made by Opposition members, I can the alternatives that are presently available understand their motives. They are not all to the council do not appear to be acceptable honourable, and very great difficulty might at all. ensue if the proposal were adopted. I appeal to them to look closely at the problem that It is high time that the people who are arises when the valuation changes the situa­ duck-shoving and avoiding the question faced tion seriously. up to the problem that is being allowed to Local Government Act [5 DECEMBER 1978] Amendment Bill (No. 2) 3241 arise in coastal areas. This problem has this has been recognised, and whilst it is arisen in two of the local authority areas recognised that Mt. Morgan has tremendotL'i in my electorate and a valuation is soon potential not only as a tourist area but also to be released for the third, so the same as an industrial area, little support has been problem will arise there. It is perfectly forthcoming. Every effort has been made obvious that while valuations are based on by Councillor Arthur Timms, the members the market value of land-and probably that of the council, the chamber of commerce is a reasonable proposition-and the local and the community generally to sell the authorities continue to use the Valuer­ potential of Mt. Morgan, but it seems that General's value as the base on which to their representations have been falling on levy rates, this sort of inequitable situation deaf ears. will continue. When we start talking about industry, we Again I must say that I am deeply indebted have to start looking at the requirements to the Minister for the way in which he of industry. Naturally it requires close has received deputations and representations proximity to a work-force; it desires basic from my electorate on this matter. However, infrastructure; it needs an ideal climate; I am unhappy that this situation is allowed it needs transport facilities; and most to continue. I speak on behalf of the people importantly, it needs land and water. All of the whole shire because, while the people but the latter are available in abundance in the towns and the people in the country in Mt. Morgan. It has plenty of land, the areas are paying lower rates than before, they climate is delightful, and it is certainly in realise the situation that has arisen and are close proximity to Rockhampton with its unhappy about it also. They can see the large population, but the prablem it faces Is situation facing the council, which cannot a lack of water, and despite all the overtures do what it needs to do. While the proposi­ that have been made and the submissions tion that the rates for the coastal township that have been put forward, no assistance has should increase because of the increased been forthcoming as yet to allow the Mt. services that are required there is quite Morgan Shire Council to overcome this lack sensible and valid, they also realise •that the of water. Numerous letters have been sent rates in the other areas should not have to the Minister for Local Government about decreased as much as they have. it. I have also sent him letters asking him to reconsider the Government's approach to I bring those points forward to the Com­ overcoming the difficulties in relation to mittee tonight in the hope that the Govern­ Fletcher Creek. ment will look very seriously indeed at the situation in which people in these areas find Some years ago-in fact, back in 1954, 24 themselves so that we might be able to find years ago-the Mt. Morgan Shire Council a sensible solution to the whole problem. borrowed $294,000 to provide water for the community. Even though the original debt Apart from those comments, I find the was $294,000 and the council has already amendments very interesting and worth while, paid off $376,000, it still owes $154,000 of and I thank the Minister for the diligence the original principal. So honourable mem­ w·ith which he has gone about his work in bers can see that in 24 vears-almost a this area. quarter of a century-it has- paid a massive amount of money and yet it still owes some­ Mr. WRIGHT (Rockhampton) (10.11 thing like 55 per cent of the original sum p.m.): In r.ising to speak in this debate, I borrowed. take the pomt made by the honourable mem­ ber for Isis that many councils throughout the Mr. Bertoni: What are the water rates in Sta~e are fi?ding some difficulty in meeting Mt. Morgan? t~e1r commitments and performing the func­ tiOns that are expected of them. I rise to Mr. WRIGHT: To my knowledge, rates ~peak mainly on one specific issue, and that are generally high. Is the problems confronting the Mt. Morgan Shire Council at the moment. Because of Mr. Bertoni: Water rates? the difficulties that have been experienced since the mines started to close down, it has become a well known council throughout Mr. WRIGHT: I am not sure of the actual the ~tate. In the last three or four years, rate, but rates generally are high and they especially before the 1974 election, numerous are going to increase unless some assistance promises were made by this Government and is forthcoming. I would like the Minister to also by the Fraser Liberal Party at the time, use the influence that we know he has with about what they would do at Mt. Morgan. the Treasurer and the Government generally Unfortunately, very little has resulted in to get the loan debt written off, because this terms of hard cash or practical assistance. is the only way the council is going to get Today we find that this shire, through no out of its difficulties. But we need more fault of its own, is facing serious financial than that. The council not only needs the difficulties. debt wri•tten off; it also needs cold hard cash. The figures given to me by the shire council As I said, there has been a gradual failure show that the new service reservoir is going to of the mining industry in the area, and whilst cost $250,000 and the constmction of the 3242 Local Government Act [5 DECEMBER 1978) Amendment Bill (No. 2) new weir $400,000. So we are talking about The Minister should consider this matter. a lot of moneyJ money that is simply beyond He might regard it as a socialist policy. A the capacity of the ratepayers to find. number of socialist concepts seem to have been adopted in recent legislation. We had I ask the Minister, through you, Mr. examples tonight in education and in indus­ Gunn, to consider this. He is always saying trial affairs. This is another matter which how interested he is in local authorities, the Minister should consider. The choice is that he is very pleased to have his portfolio, either to impose taxes or to earn revenue. and that, because of his previous experience I suggest that we should give local author­ in local government, he has the common ities the opportunity to earn revenue. If we touch. I know that he is interested in the made moneys available to them, they would small towns that are failing and those that be able to develop their own caravan parks have difficulties. These difficulties can be and tourist facilities and become involved in overcome not by sympathy but by hard cash. land development. In this way many of their financial problems would disappear. If we The town to which I refer is continuing to are able to do 'this, we can increase their grow. It now has three doctors. The town, status not only politically but also financially. from a commercial point of view, is certainly Consideration has to be given to this matter. not lagging behind. It is meeting its com­ mitments. It is becoming a residential area I said that my comments would be brief. for Rockhampton as well. There is an I have raised the two major points that I increase in the overall population. The intended to cover. I ask the Minister to give school is not falling behind. The problem special consideration to the plight of Mt. that the people face is that they simply do Morgan, and also, on a broader basis, to not have water. consider the concept of providing additional revenue to local authorities to allow them to When Baralaba needed a weir-it is in the conduct their own income-earning ventures. Banana Shire, in a Government member's electorate--the Government saw no problem in Mr. FRAWLEY (Caboolture) (10.18 p.m.): meeting the total cost of that capital works Firstly, I am going to take exception to some programme. I do not know the reasons for of the statements made by the member for that. Maybe the cost was met because it was Port Curtis. He objects to the removal of a project of great priority. I would suggest the limitation of $4,000 in fees for alder­ through you, Mr. Gunn, that the project to men and councillors. I agree with the Min­ which I refer is certainly one of great ister that this limitation should be raised. priority. It has been shown in the studies Members of local authorities face the electors that have been carried out that a better weir every three years and, if they pay themselves on Fletcher Creek could not only service too much money, they will be put out of Mt. Morgan but also meet the water office at the next election. requirements of Dululu and Wowan. Those towns must have water, and if we are to Incidentally, the Mayor of Redcliffe does promote this area from an industry or tourist not have an air-conditioned car. He drives point of view, some assistance has to be an ordinary Holden Kingswood car that has provided. been supplied by the Redcliffe City Council. It is not air-conditioned. The Minister should also give some con­ sideration to the road problems. When I An Opposition Member: After this Bill first raised this matter, he said that the road goes through, he will. was not too bad. I know that accidents are always happening on the road in this area. Mr. FRAWLEY: He will not. Cars are always being pulled back up the When I was an alderman on the Redcliffe Range. The road is deteriorating rather City Council for six years, from 1967 to badly. It is something that must be looked 1973- at. An Opposition Member: It went broke. Local authorities face a financial problem. They get revenue in three ways-from the Mr. FRAWLEY: It did not go broke. As State or Federal Government, from the a matter of fact, in those days the fees were people by way of taxes, and in earnings. $1,000. At no time did I ever claim $1,000. Because of the growing disenchantment with The most I ever received was $750. The high taxes throughout this nation and same rule still applies in the Redcliffe City throughout the world-we only have to look Council. If there is more than one meeting at the American experience-maybe we a day, it does not count. If there are two should be giving local authorities and shire or three meetings a day, only one is counted. councils generally the capacity to earn their That is how the system works in Redcliffe, own revenue. I believe that this is one way and I agree that it should stay that way. to overcome their difficulties. If local auth­ I personally do not know of any councils orities were able to earn their own revenue, that do the things that have been suggested the disbursement of State revenue among by Opposition members. It is not done in 134 local authorities would not be as Redcliffe or in the Pine Shire. Councillors necessary. and aldermen have a very responsible task. Local Government Act [5 DECEMBER 1978] Amendment Bill(No. 2) 3243

The Pine Rivers Shire Council has been In a letter to the Editor of "The Courier­ redrawing the boundaries of the shire. I Mail", the lady who owned the dog said- have to present a petition to the Minister " You recently published an item in from Division 3, which I represent. It connection with Mr. Des Frawley, member includes the area around Davboro and of Parliament for Murrumba, regarding a Samsonvale, part of Mt. Mee, O~ean View, little dog being kicked to death. I am the Mt. Pleasant and Laceys Creek in the owner of the dog, and I \Vish to state that electorate of Caboolture. The people there Mr. Frawley most definitely was not the are objecting strenuously to the proposal put man described by me. forward by the Pine Rivers Shire Council to "I would be obliged if you would print reduce their representation. It is trying to give then an area that takes in approximately this to clear Mr. Frawley of any part in 44 per cent of the shire, and it disregards the the incident. existing State electoral boundaries and ignores (Signed) Mrs. J. E. Meitz, any community of interest. Therefore, I Oxley Avenue, Redcliffe." must object to it on behalf of the people whom I represent in Dayboro. That proves conclusively I did not kick the dog in Redcliffe. Recently received complaints from Caloundra about dogs in schoolgrounds and Getting back to some of the important the fact that the local authority does not aspects of the proposed Bill-I believe that send someone to remove them. local councils should have the authority to enter schoolgrounds to apprehend dogs that 1\lr. K. J. Hooper interjected. are causing trouble. It should not be for­ gotten, as one honourable member said Mr. FRAWLEY: At times I have been earlier in the debate-I have forgotten who accused wrongly of kicking dogs. I have an it was; it may even have been an Opposition interest in canines and other animals; as a member-that many dogs follow children to matter of fact, I have quite a good cattle school. One finds that they are owned by dog. I have heard several interjections from the children and they entice them to school. honourable members while I have been I do not think that dogs should be pounded speaking, and I would like to read to the and destroyed. In fact, some of the councils Committee something that proves that I did keep them only a few days. In my opinion, not kick the dog that I was accused of the principal of the school concerned should kicking in Redcliffe. have enough decency to find out from the children who owns the dog and then get in In the "Peninsula Post" in Redcliffe on touch with the owners and ask them to take Wednesday, 10 September, an article said- the dog home. If the dog is savage and bites anybody, I agree it should be pounded. " ... in the quiet, peaceful hours of Wednesday, August 20, when people were I commend the Minister for his handling of chatting over fences, watering their gardens some of the deputations that he has received or taking dogs for a walk, aged pensioner, from local government in my electorate. Mrs. E. Meitz of Oxley Avenue, was out Recently he has had members of the Lands­ exercising he little dog, Peppy-her sole borough Shire Council and members of the companion for the past 14 years. Caboolture Shire Council down to see him, "The frail old dog made a friendly and on each occasion he has done his best to overture to an athletic man"- alleviate their problems. Of course, I could be described in that wav. congratulate him sincerely for The description of that man-"a well-built introducing this Bill to amend the athletic type of person"-fits me to a T Local Government Act. As the honour­ and that's why people-- ' able member for Pine Rivers said, over many years the Local Government Act has been The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. amended time and time again. It shows that Gunn): Order! With all due respect to the the Minister and his staff are sufficiently honourable member, this has nothing to do interested to amend anything in the Act that with the proposed amendments. is wrong. The Local Government Act has so many sections that they could not all be amended. I am quite convinced that the Mr. FRA WLEY: I think it does, Mr. method now being used is the correct one, Gunn, because this may not have occurred if and I prophesy that there will be many the Redcliffe City Council had had a dog amendments to the Local Government Act catcher at that time. I may not have been before we see the end of it. wrongly accused of kicking the lady's dog to death. Mr. BERTONI (Mt. Isa) (10.24 p.m.): I will not tell any doggy stories tonight, and I The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: It is a will detain the Committee for only a few story that we have heard before. minutes. Mr. FRAWLEY: You did not hear this I was very interested in the remarks one befOTe, Mr. Gunn. made by the former mayor of Gladstone, 3244 Financial Administration and [5 DECEMBER 1978] Audit Act Amendment Bill the honourable member for Port Curtis, insufficiencies in order to facilitate its imple­ about the present mayor of Gladstone. I mentation and to properly achieve its objects have the greatest respect for the honourable and purposes. member. However, I would like to know whether his remarks are the official view of Now that the Leader of the Opposition the A.L.P. Within the Mt. Isa area, there has had a chance to examine the Bill in is on the council a lady solicitor who is detail, I think he will realise his misunder­ always whingeing that she is not getting standing of the proposal relating to ministerial enough money from the council. It is rum­ responsibility for the appropriations for the oured that the A.L.P. councillors who are services of the Legislative Assembly. The standing for the next election will ask for proposal, as set forth in clause 8 (b) of the approximately $5,000 or $6,000 a year for Bill, is that section 35 of the Act be amended each alderman, and for the mayor to receive by inserting a new subsection reading as a substantial increase to about $20,000 a year. follows:- If this is official A.L.P. policy, it will be "(5) For the purposes of- interesting for the people of my area to "(a) the financial administration of know that the present mayor, a full-time the appropriations relating to the Legis­ mayor, gets only about $7,000 a year, and lative Assembly; and gives the rest of his time free of charge. It "(b) the establishment and keeping of is important to my area to know the official accounts in relation thereto; and view of the A.L.P. If the honourable member for Port Curtis would like to tell me that, it "(c) the audit of such accounts, would be appreciated. but to no other extent, such appropri­ ations shall be deemed to be for services Hon. R. J. HINZE (South Coast-Minister under the control of a department, such for Local Government and Main Roads) accounts shall be deemed to be depart­ (10.27 p.m.), in reply: I thank all honourable mental accounts and the appropriate Min­ members for the contributions they have ister shall be deemed to be the Premier." made to the debate. I propose to answer them at the second-reading stage. There are Section 35 of the Act provides for a scheme a number of matters that have to be com­ under which accountable officers are mented upon, and I undertake to do that appointed to be responsible for the financial tomorrow. I commend the Bill to the administration of parliamentary appropri­ Committee. ations of public moneys. The particular appropriations for which each accountable Motion (Mr. Hinze) agreed to. officer is responsible are those for services Resolution reported. under the control of his department. Section 36 of the Act imposes on each FIRST READING such accountable officer functions and duties including, amongst other things, the keeping Bill presented and, on motion of Mr. of departmental accounts with respect to Hinze, read a first time. the expenditure of the appropriations for departmental services. The Legislative Assembly is not part of the Crown and cannot be a department of FINANCIAL ADMINISTRATION AND the Government. However, its services (that AUDIT ACT AMENDMENT BILL is, its running expenses) are paid from public moneys appropriated f:i'om the Consolidated SECOND READING Revenue Fund by the Parliament. For this reason, it is necessary to ensure that the Hon. .J. BJELKE-PETERSEN (Barambah prescriptions provided in the Financial -Premier) (10.29 p.m.): I move- Administration and Audit Act with respect "That the Bill be now read a second to the expenditure of public moneys for time." departmental services also apply to the expenditure of public moneys for Legislative In moving the second reading of this Bill, Assembly services. In other words, there I think it is fair to say that honourable must be uniformity of control in the spend­ members have by now had ample opportunity ing of public moneys, no matter who spends to study the amendments set forth in the Bill those moneys. This is proper and logical, which the Government proposes should be and is the intent of the Act. made to the Financial Administration and Audit Act 1977. In so far as the Act imposes duties on accountable officers, of whom the Clerk As I said at the time of introducing the of the Parliament is one, the meaning of Bill, the proposed amendments do not intro­ the term "department" in relation to duce any new principles or disturb any of "departmental services" and "departmental the principles on which the Act is based. accounts" must include the "services" for The amendments are mainly of a technical which the Clerk of the Parliament is respon­ nature and are being proposed to clarify sible and the "accounts" which he is required existing provisions of the Act or to overcome to keep. Financial Administration and [5 DECEMBER 1978] Audit Act Amendment Bill 3245

Accordingly, clause 8 (b) of the Bill now Another rather strange occurrence at the before the House proposes that section 35 introductory stage was the assertion by the of the Act should spell out that the "ser­ Deputy Premier that the link between the vices" and "accounts" of the Legislative Crown and Parliament was the Premier. How Assembly should, for the purposes of con­ wrong he was! Proof of that came the very trol set forth in the Act, and for those next day, when His Excellency the Governor purposes only, be deemed to be "depart­ was admitted to this Chamber-the only mental services" and "departmental occasion in a long, long time. It was cer­ accounts" respectively. tainly the only time in my memory of 10 years of service in this Chamber. When the The administrative organisation of 1he Governor, as representative of the Crown, Legislative Assembly will not carry the word was admitted, to whom was he presented? "department" in its title, nor shall the Legis­ Not to ,the Premier but to you, Mr. Speaker. lative Assembly be converted into a depart­ And rightly so, because you, Mr. Speaker, are ment of the Government by the Act. the link between this ParHament and the The accountable officer scheme of section Crown, not under any circumstances the 35 envisaged that the responsibility of every Premier, as alleged by the Deputy Premier. accountable officer would be subject to the As I say, we need no further proof of ~that principal responsibility of an "appropriate than what happened in this Parliament on Minister". As the Legislative Assembly is the very day foHowing the introduction of not a department of the Crown, there is this Bill. no "appropriate Minister" as there is in the case of departments of the Government It is sad and tmgic that when the Premier of the State. However, the Government is has a Bill before the Assembly he chooses of the opinion that in the case of the Legis­ to indulge in many aspects of personal lative Assembly the Premier should be slander and smear. Much has been said regarded as the "appropriate Minister", but here recently by you, Mr. Speaker, about only to the extent necessary to ensure that such att>acks. Perhaps in many ways the the Clerk of the Parliament properly dis­ Premier is the worst offender. No-one's charges the duties imposed upon him as an personal affairs are safe from this man's accountable officer by the Act. This will scrutiny, hrs interference and his spleen. place that clerk in the same position as The central point of this legislation is the every other accountable officer and will mean that for every parliamentary appropriation degree to which this Parliament should 1be there will be a Minister answerable to Par­ accountable to the Premier who, throu~h liament for its management. Cabinet, should be answerable to it. We must determine to what e:>etent the inde­ Honourable members will see that in pendence of Padiament is to be transferred essence what is proposed is merely that the from its elected membership to a hand-picked Premier should be made responsible for ensuring that the moneys appropriated by Executive. lif any lasting evidence was needed the Parliament for the running expenses of on the e~tent to which the Premier would the administrative organisation of the Legis­ squeeze the slightest responsibility placed on lative Assembly are expended for the specific him for financial control of Crown moneys, purposes for which Parliament appropriates it is provided by the street march issue. those moneys. Receipts from the taxpayers have been Explanation of this proposal was given at paid out of the Treasury ,to sponsor a party­ some length at the time I introduced the political point of view which, in the Sher­ Bill. Explanation of the need for certain wood by-election just under a fortnight ago, other technical amendments to be made to was rejected by nine out of 10 votens. The the Act was also given at that time. Premier believes iha,t Crown money should be misdirected to subsidise a 10 per cent I commend the Bill to honourable narrow, minority attitude, but not a cent members. should be available to present rationally the majority alternative. Mr. CASEY (Mackay-Leader of the Opposition) (10.35 p.m.): The Premier has Last week in the debate on this measure, asserted at both the introductory and second­ which was also late at night, the Labor Oppo­ reading stages that the Bill is purely a tech­ sition outlined its position on public spending. nical one. For many reasons, it is a s.trange I will repeat some of those points this even­ Bill if it is a purely technical Bill. Never ing to make quite clear exactly how we on any occasion in this Parliament have I believe the eJGpenditure of Parliament should seen five Ministers drawn into an introductory be examined and ,the expenditure of Govern­ deb

indicated by their vote on the introduction Mr. HOUSTON: If the Minister waits a of this Bill. They want a system in which while and interjects from his own seat, information on financial activities is con­ I will deal with him in the proper sequence. cealed, not revealed. They want a system in which 18 Cabinet Ministers, except four, are The Bill is a political stunt designed to mis­ hand-picked exclusive brethren. They want lead the public into believing that the Premier a Parliament in which the Premier is endowed is the strong man of this Parliament who is with powers that, under the Westminster going to call a halt to all unauthorised system of government, not even Her Majesty expenditure and to all abuse of public money can command. other than that approved by him. The Bill will not do that at all. The trauma~ we go through here tonight will be looked back on by Queenslanders in The whole problem of the Peel report on what is commonly known as the travel the future with a mixture of shame and per­ voucher affair arose basically because of haps disbelief. There will be youngsters who the complete laxity of Cabinet in allowing will look upon their grandfathers or ageing the practice to develop in the first place. fathers in bewilderment at the way in which Surely the Premier is not going to suggest such a backward step could be taken. They to me and this House that he and his col­ will wonder just how a State over a century leagues either individually or collectively did old could stray so far into a curious feudal not know that members were converting past while other Parliaments are moving their tickets. If he did not know, that shows ahead into the future-the Parliament at the complete incompetence of the Premier Westminster, on which this Parliament is and his Cabinet. I believe that the Premier founded, being a classic example. did know. Certainly members of his Cabinet knew about it from letters that were written Labor cannot, in all conscience, support and things that were said to other back­ such a restrictive Bill as has been presented bench members. Whether they are game to here tonight. We cannot vote for legislation get up and admit that months before, back that places the Legislature of this State so in January, they were able to tell other mem­ extremely out of step with the parliamentary bers of this House that certain arrangements systems of the House of Commons and every had been approved-- other Parliament in Australia. For the Lib­ eral Party, it is the real test of their effec­ Mr. Bjelke-Petersen: What is your opinion tiveness inside the coalition. They must say of your leader? now if they are to stand for a principle, or for ever run away from the ideals they claim Mr. HOUSTON: I think that he is a to be their motivation. No-one expects any­ very good leader. He is a better leader ,than thing more than shallow and undemocratic the Premier will ever be. There is no argu­ decisions from the National Party, and par­ ment about that. The only problem is that ticularly this Premier. We even see a new he is not the Premier of this State. As I said definition of the Parliament concealed within to the Premier the other day, if ,there was a the Bill so that it can cover certain aspects free vote in this Parliament on who should of the definition of the Parliament. It reads- be the Premier of this State, I am afraid that the Premier would miss out rather "constituted by or under any Act or law badly. or for a purpose in connexion with the gov­ ernment of the State, ..." I said that the trouble was caused by a laxity in Cabinet itself in carrying out its Here we have the disguise, the subterfuge duty and in allowing the matter to roll the section which covers the take-over of th~ along until finally someone in the airlines affairs of this Parliament. Of course we also apparently told a newspaper reporter, who find in another part of the Bill the usual published a story about members' converting piece of retrospectivity that has become so tickets and going overseas. I am not arguing common a part of legislation introduced by about whether they did that legally or not, this Government. but that is how it started. We cannot accept the Premier's point that The Premier may recall that he set up this is only a technical Bill which tidies up a committee within his own party ranks to some things that may or may not have gone look at the whole practice, and he invited wrong in the past. We believe the Bill is a the Opposition to nominate a representative deliberate attempt to take away from this on that committee. He knew about the Parliament its functions and its powers, and matter even at that late stage. The com­ while we see it in this light the Opposition mittee brought down a recommendation, and will continue to oppose it. perhaps that recommendation went too far with regard to travel allowances. Then the Premier bucked and went to the public. Mr. HOUSTON (Bulimba) (10.49 p.m.): I He is suggesting now that by changing the support the Leader of the Opposition in his law everything will be put right. opposition to this Bill. I do not believe it will change any circumstances at all. Let us have a look at the present law. I suggest that Liberal members of this Parlia­ Mr. Lee: Why? ment who have not had a look at the law 3248 Financial Administration and [5 DECEMBER 1978] Audit Act Amendment Bill should do so. Firstly, .the Premier talks about rules as they understood them. If there making someone in this Parliament respon­ has been any change or breakdown in the sible for these matters. Section 35 (3) of rules, it has been as a result of Cabinet the Financial Administration and Audit Act, decisions and a failure to pass on information. which was passed in 1977, provides- It may be recalled that there was mention "The Clerk of the Parliament shall be in the Peel report of some members of this the accountable officer with respect to the Assembly going on ministerial trips and appropriations relating to the Legislative there was some question whether they had Assembly." claimed allowances; again, I am not judging the case, but the Premier suggested that So I do not think there is any argument I was wrong in not knowing all the rules. that the Clerk of Parliament is not the At 11.5 a.m. on 10 October this year the accountable officer. It was clearly understood Premier made an observation about the that the Minister would be the Treasurer, Auditor-General's special report on air trans­ as in other areas. Let us have a look at port of members, and among the things the functions and duties of an accountable that he said when referring to members was officer. Section 36 states- this- " (1) Every accountable officer- " In each case the member stated that " (a) shall manage appropriations for he had been issued with no procedural the services with respect to ,the depart­ guide-lines as to what the travelling allow­ ment under his control efficiently and ance should cover. This claim has been economically and avoid waste and found to be correct." extravagance; Of course it is correct, and what applied "(b) shall cause to be faithfully and to members who went with Ministers applied properly kept in compliance with the equally to members in the case of air travel. prescribed requirements the several In my view, therefore, the real blame goes accounts of the department .that are right back to Cabinet and to its refusal required to be kept by this Act or any to put in writing the things that were agreed other Act or law; to in one way or another. "(c) shall ensure- Let us get down to what the Bill would do. " (i) that procedures within the It is my firm belief that if we are to have department are such as will at all a completely independent Parliament, we times afford proper control over must have a completely independent Speaker. expenditure; That is the first requirement. In addition, "(ii) ,that expenditure is incurred we must have a Chairman of Committees for lawful purposes and is made in who, while he is in the chair, is responsible compliance with the prescribed require­ only to the Speaker. In the normal operations ments; of the House, we also have Deputy Speakers "(iii) that as far as is possible and Temporary Chairmen of Committees. having regard to the limits of his No-one could say that any member acting powers and control reasonable value in the capacity of Deputy Speaker or Tem­ is obtained for moneys expended; porary Chairman of Committees would be fully conversant, in the early stages of his "(d) shall ensure that procedures occupancy of the chair, with all the rules within the department and internal and procedures of the House. Therefore, checks afford at all times adequate it comes back to the Clerk of the Parlia­ safeguards with respect to-" ment, and the established practice is that Then it goes on to refer to safekeeping, he is the man who gives advice to Speakers banking, and so on. The whole point is on the running of this Chamber and is that it clearly defines the functions and duties responsible for interpreting Standing Orders of the accountable officer. covering the operation of Parliament. It is to the Clerk of the Parliament that Tem­ According to the Peel report, there was porary Chairmen look for guidance when a conversion of tickets for quite some time. question is raised affecting the operation of There were also audits of the Legislative the Parliament. Assembly accounts, as well as of other accounts, over the years. At that time, One of the most important duties of a to my knowledge, the auditor made no Speaker or a Chairman is to ensure that reference to any misappropriation of funds. every member has his due opportunity to Therefore, I believe that the Clerk of the ask questions and to take part in debate. Parliament acted as he did in the belief Irrespective of which political party is in that it was his responsibility to do it and power, the same rules apply in two, three, that he was acting in conformity with the 10, 15 or 20 years' time, and I believe that Act. I have no doubt that it would have the Clerk of the Parliament must be been done after consultation with the Speaker independent of everybody other than the of the Legislative Assembly. Nothing has person to whom he gives advice on all come out so far that indicates that either matters, that is, Mr. Speaker. As I said of those two gentlemen did anything that earlier, Temporary Chairmen would rely on was not strictly in accordance with the the Clerk of the Parliament, and it is Financial Administration and [5 DECEMBER 1978] Audit Act Amendment Bill 3249

completely wrong to put him in a position 21 members converted 60 tickets. With all of where it may appear that he has been com­ those members involved and present Cabinet promised by anyone. Certainly he should Ministers-some of them back-benchers at never be put in the position where it would the time--mixing and talking, can any Gov­ appear that he had been or could be com­ ernment member honestly say that he was not promised by the Premier of the State. After aware of conversion of tickets by members? all, it is the Premier of the State who takes It wasn't any secret society that was doing the lead in debating in this Chamber all it. The practice was mentioned around this matters of major Government policy, as House quite openly. Each year, a greater does the Leader of the Opposition on this number of members were involved.. In side of the House. 1974-75, five were involved; in 1975-76, 14 The Speaker is the only person in the were involved; in 1976-77, 21 were involved; Chamber who is elected by the members of and in 1977-78, 43 were involved. As well, in Parliament. He is elected by secret ballot, 1977-78, 12 members converted special war­ and is independent of the Government and rants or tickets. So, in addition to the 43 the Opposition. He is the nominal and tech­ members, 12 were involved. nical head of the Clerk of Parliament, and As I have said, in his reply at the this has been so for centuries. The situation introductory stage, the Premier attacked me, that was brought about by the use of air saying that I should have known all the tickets is not sufficient reason to contemplate rules. I defy anyone in Cabinet to write any change at all. down all the rules. The Premier admitted The proposed legislation wiii make the that no written rules apply to ministerial Premier responsible for finances. It is all trips. Of course, only Government mem­ very well for him and Government members bers were involved in trips with Ministers; to argue that the Premier's being responsible no Opposition members ·were taken on any for finance is different from his being res­ ministerial trips. In other words, apparently ponsible for everything. it was all right for Government members What I say now is certainly no reflection not to be subjected to any rules. How­ on the gentleman holding the position of ever, when all members, including Opposi­ Clerk of Parliament. Let us take a situation tion members, were involved, the situation that could develop. If there had been some was different. As I have said, I will not conflict between the Premier and the Clerk accept the claim that he or some of his of Parliament, as the accountable officer, on Cabinet colleagues did not know what the the use of money allocated for Parliament­ situation was. it need not be for air travel; it could be for Let me now deal with one method of anything else-would that not immediately conversion, which has been described to me put the Clerk of Parliament in an untenable as very simple. A member arranges with position as far as the Premier is concerned? an officer under the Clerk of the Parliament How would that affect that person's judg­ to go on a trip to, say, Adelaide. The air­ ment when it came to giving advice to the line company, either T.A.A. or Ansett, is House? We are not arguing only on the requested to issue a ticket and to forward practice but also on how it can appear to the account to the Clerk of the Parliament. any other person outside or inside this The Clerk of the Parliament pays the Parliament. If there has to be a change, account. There is nothing wrong at all with with a nailing down of someone other than that procedure. In fact, under the Bill, the Treasurer, as the responsible person over it will not change. A Cabinet decision is the accountable officer, it certainly should required in order to alter it. As the Leader not be the Premier. of the Opposition has said, the Bill will The argument is that it has to be a do other things, but it will not change that Minister of the Crown. The Treasurer is system. a Minister of the Crown, and he has been By enforcing the rule that unused tickets accepted as the person responsible. After are to be returned to Parliament and the all, wasn't it reported that the Treasurer airline company is to reurn the money to sent a letter to the Speaker about air travel, the Clerk of the Parliament, the Premier and the Speaker in turn wrote a letter to the would alter the rule. But that could happen airways? There has been no denial of 1hat. without amending the Act. An instruction If it is wrong, I suggest that the Premier to the airline company concerned to the should put the record straight. It is my effect that the ticket is to be cancelled understanding that it was the Treasurer who and the money returned would be a simple accepted that responsibility. way of doing things. Without going into the Peel report in any If the member involved wants to make great detail, let us have a look at the prior another flight at a later date, or if some­ practice as it relates to this legislation. The one else wants to make a flight, the money transfer of tickets had been going on since is there. The airline companies had the at least 1974, long before the Peel report. credits against the members concerned. They As I said earlier, why wasn't this picked up in were paid for, and everything was quite audits in 1974-75, 1975-76 and 1976-77? In legal. As I have said, there were no instruc­ 1974-75, according to the Peel report, five tions as to what would happen when that members converted nine tickets; in 1975-76, occurred, and that was the situation that 14 members converted 40 tickets; in 1976-77, caused the trouble. 3250 Financial Administration and [5 DECEMBER 1978] Audit Act Amendment Bill

The Premier has provided in the Bill to NoEs, 23 take upon himself a certain responsibility. Blake Prest If I were the Treasurer, I would regard Casey Scott-Yonng that a severe reprimand. The amendment D'Arcy Shaw Davis Underwood does not apply to any other accountable Fouras Warburton officer at all; it applies only to the Clerk Gibbs, R. J. Wilson of the Parliament. As I have said, no Hansen Wright Hooper, K. J. Ycwdale person should have two bosses. If the Clerk Houston of the Parliament is to be allowed to do Jones Tellers: his job properly, he should be responsible Kruger Mackenroth Scott to you, Mr. Speaker, and to you alone. Milliner Vaughan If control has to be taken from the Treasurer, it should go to Mr. Speaker. Although he PAIR: is not a Cabinet Minister, he is an officer Hartwig Bnrns of this Parliament. He is the only person Resolved in the affirmative. elected by Parliament and the only person who can be removed only by this Parlia­ COMMITIEE ment. A little while ago the Deputy Premier of Queensland was removed, not by a vote (The Chairman of Committees, Mr. W. D. of Parliament but bv a vote of his Liberal Hewitt, Greenslopes, in the chair) Party colleagues. · Clause I, as read, agreed to. Mr. Goleby: What about Tom Burns? Clause 2-Amendment of s. 5; Inter­ pretation- Mr. HOUSTON: He resigned of his own free will. There is a difference between the Mr. CASEY (Mackay-Leader of the two. Opposition) (11.22 p.m.): As I mentioned during the second-reading debate, there are Mr. Speaker cannot 'be removed by the some funny things in this clause, one of Premier or anyone else. He can be removed which is a definition of "Parliament" for the only by his voluntary retirement from the purposes of the Act. This is quite clearly position, by retiring from Parliament, or by shown in clause 2, about line 17, where it is a substantive motion before the House. stated in part, " ... for a purpose in connexion I am very pleased to support my leader with the government of the State". It is in eJCpressing the view 1hat this legislation written as a simple definition so that the is purely a stunt to lull the public into overall Act can in fact cover the Parliament believing that the Government has taken in this way. steps to ensure that the circumstances that But in a consequential amendment we see gave rise to the Bill cannot arise again. I included a definition of "Premier". We of repeat that the Bill does not alter the position the Labor Party see this as making him the in any way. All it does is transfer power permanent head of Parliament and the part from the Treasurer to the Premier, and with which entrenches him in the situation which that is the overtone of the Premier being in he desires to obtain. We intend to keep our charge of the Government and selecting in word of a few months ago when we supported many instances the Cabinet Ministers who all other members of this Parliament in put him in this position. carrying a vote of confidence in Mr. Speaker; Question-That the motion (Mr. Bjelke­ in carrying a vote of confidence in the Petersen) be agreed to-put; and the House maintenance of the Westminster system. divided- Every member who was present on that occasion voted in support of that motion that AYES, 53 confidence in Mr. Speaker be maintained. We Ahern Knox proposed that motion not only to show our Akers Kyburz confidence in the present incumbent of the Armstrong Lane Bertoni Lee position of Speaker but also as a visible sign Bird Lester of our trust in the Westminster system. Bishop Lickiss Bjelke-Petersen Lockwood I say quite categorically here and now that Booth McKechnie this is the way a future Labor Government Bourke Miller in Queensland will operate. A future Labor Camm Muller Camp bell Ne a! Government will amend this legislation to Doumany Newbery allow the Speaker to be the person who Edwards Porter Elliott Powell controls this Parliament. I therefore move Fraw!ey Row the following amendment- Gibbs, I. J. Scassola Glasson Simpson "On page 2, lines 23 to 27, omit all Goleby Tenni words and insert in lieu thereof- Greenwood Tomkins Gunn Turner '(f) inserting after the definition Gygar Warner "services" the following definition:- Hewitt, N. T. E, Wharton Hewitt. W. D. White "Speaker" means the Speaker of the 1-Iinze Parliament of Queensland and includes Innes a member of Parliament constitu­ Katter Tellers: Kaus Hooper, M. D. tionally acting in the capacity of Kippln Moore Speaker;'" Financial Administration and [5 DECEMBER 1978] Audit Act Amendment Bill 3251

We wish to amend the definition in this clause I do not care what fancy words are used by substituting the definition of Speaker or to describe the Parliament. First of all, the whoever is constitutionally acting in that word "instmmentality" is used to describe it capacity during his absence, whether it be the in this Bill. I am sure that this is a new Deputy Speaker or someone else approved by definition of Parliament. Then the Bill pro­ the Parliament. It is a simple amendment. vides "for a purpose in connexion with the It is one which will show whether those government of the State". Surely this Par­ members of this Committee who were pre­ liament is not "for a purpose in connexion pared three months ago, or whenever it was, with the government of the State". Members to stand up and support the vote of con­ opposite are the Government. We are the fidence in Mr. Speaker and in our current lawmakers. In fact, for far too long this system are now prepared to stand by their Government has given the impression that word or whether they will run scared, as because it is the Government, it is every­ has been indicated, and vote against the thing. This is the Parliament, and it is not amendment. just here to act at the whim of the Govern­ ment. Mr. HOUSTON (Bulimba) (11.25 p.m.): It looks as though the Premier has not yet The Leader of the Opposition pointed out received his instructions from Mr. Evans. that the inscription on the mace reads, "Gov­ So we will have to wait a while to hear from ernment of Queensland". That shows the him. Government's attitude. I think it is about time that the people of Queensland realised I support the Leader of the Opposition. that there is a tremendous difference between Surely the procedure for the operation of the Government and the Parliament and the this Parliament should be that the Speaker, operation of Parliament. This is the Parlia­ through the Clerk of Parliament, submits to ment. I cannot accept that the Parliament is Cabinet the proposed expenditure for the "for the purpose in connexion with the gov­ ensuing year. I believe that that is what ernment of this State." It is for the purpose happens at present. It then goes to the Treas­ of laying down the laws for the government urer. He sets it against the requirements of of the State. Surely we are not here just for the benefit of the Government, although other departments and against possible from the actions of the Premier and many income, and then the Cabinet either approves of his Cabinet Ministers we could be led to of it or does not approve of it. Finally, the believe that the words used in this clause are Treasurer is given an appropriation which is quite appropriate to the realities of the present designed to cover the operations of this Par­ situation. If "Premier" is removed, basically liament and all matters associated with the the idea is to change clause 8, a later clause, running of it, including the expenses of its where we will remove the Premier as the members under various headings. Surely, person responsible and substitute the Speaker. once the Parliament passes the Appropriation Surely that brings it back to what it was Bill, that is a fixed amount of money. It intended to be in the first place. can be varied, but that has to be covered by I say to those members of the Liberal Supplementary Estimates at a later stage. Party who have been talking about the inde­ But the fact is that an amount of money is pendence of the Speaker, "Now is your allocated by this Parliament through the opportunity to do something about it." Appropriation Bill. Surely it is then an easy Before we change clause 8, necessarily we matter for the Clerk of Parliament to spend must have a definition of the Speaker, and that money under the authority of Mr. the amendment is worded in such a way that Speaker. the person in the chair acting as Speaker The Leader of the Opposition pointed out does not take over the responsibilities of the that only a few weeks ago this Parliament Speaker. The words used are designed to supported the Speaker in the actions he took make it very clear that the only time that on the Peel report. Do not forget that the the person elected by Parliament to be Speaker is the one person in this Parliament Speaker is not the person responsible is when who, when he sits in that chair as the he is out of Australia and some other person, Speaker, is independent of any political party. such as the Chairman of Committees, acts Of course, the Cabinet has the responsibility as Speaker over the whole range of the for laying down all the rules, but once the Speaker's responsibilities, as he has done on rules are laid down it does not require the some occasions when the Speaker has been Premier to supervise the position to see attending conferences overseas. It is not in­ whether or not they are being carried out. tended to cover just a person who is sitting Surely that should be the responsibility of the in the chair during the course of a debate. Minister or, in this case, the Speaker. I support the amendment. 3252 Financial Administration, &c., Bill [5 DECEMBER 1978} Local Government, &c., Bill

Question-That the words proposed to be of the Speaker. 'Jiha1 is where it rightly omitted from clause 2 (Mr. Casey's amend­ belongs. I reiterate ,that we wiH change this ment) stand part of the clause-put; and the legislation when •we become the Government. Committee divided- We will change it back to the Westminster system. We would have liked to add some­ AYES, 53 thing here-and it is a matter tha!t will be Ahem Lane considered by us at a later stage~to intro­ Akers Lee duce the new system recently adopted by the Armstrong Lester Westminster Mother of Parliaments. After Bertoni Lickiss Bird Lockwood hundreds of years, it has adopted a new Bishop McKechnie system whereby the Speaker is deemed to be Bjelke-Petersen Miller the appropriate person and, under recent Booth Moo re Bourke Muller legislation, he will chair a committee com­ Camm Neal prising himself, the Leader of the House, a Camp bell Newbery Doumany Porter nominee of the Leader of the Opposition and Edwards Powell three back"benchers. That committee will Elliott Row control the day-to-day .affairs of 'that Fraw!ey Scassola Assembly. It is the proposal of the Labor Gibbs, I. J. Simpson Glasson Sul!ivan Party that this Parliament adopt a similar Goleby Tenni system. Greenwood Tomkins Gunn Turner I should like the Premier to tell the Hewitt, N. T. E. Warner Hinze Wharton Committee the reason for the deletion of Hooper, M. D. White the Commissioner for Railwavs as an account­ Innes able officer in respect of the appropriation Katter Tellers: Kaus for those services under the control of the Knox Gygar Railway Department. It seems strange that Kyburz Kippin he cannot continue to look after the set-up within his department. His title has been NoEs, 23 scrubbed. Blake Scott Casey Scott-Young Clause 8, as read, agreed to. D'Arcy Shaw Davis Underwood Clauses 9 to 14, both inclusive, as read, Fouras Warburton Hansen Wilson agreed to. Hooper, K. J. Wright Houston Yewdale Bill reported, without amendment. Jones Kruger Tellers: Mackenroth THIRD READING Milliner Gibbs, R. J. Prest Vaughan Bill, on motion of Mr. Bjelke-Petersen, by leave, read a third time. PAIR: Hartwig Burns Resolved in the affirmative. LOCAL GOVERNMENT (ABORIGINAL LANDS) ACT AMENDMENT BILL Clause 2, as read, agreed to. Clauses 3 to 7, both inclusive, as read, INITIATION IN COMMITTEE agreed to. (The Chairman of Committees, Mr. W. D. Clause 8-Amendment of s. 35; Account­ Hewitt, Greenslopes, in the chair) able officers- Hon. R . .J. HINZE (South Coast-Minister for Local Government and Main Roads) Mr. CASEY (Mackay-Leader of ~he Opposition) (11.39 p.m.): The Opposition had (1 1.44 p.m.): I move- a consequential amendment Mornington Island. It is now my duty to introduce minor amend­ However, I would point out that it is in ments to this Act, through this Bill, to give this clause that the responsibility for the more positive and formal effect to that financial administration of this Parliament legislation, in the best interests of all should be reaffirmed as being in the hands concerned in the two communities. Local Government [5 DECEMBER 1978] (Aboriginal Lands), &c., Bill 3253

The Act confers upon the people of On the subject of elections for the two new Aurukun and Mornington Island the right councils, submissions were made following of self-government through the system of dissolution of the deemed local authorities local government operating throughout the in August this year for fresh elections to rest of the State, with minor variations to be held as soon as possible. Power to have allow for special circumstances in both fresh elections 'before the last Saturday in areas. The variations, while minor in the March 1979-the date of the next scheduled overall local government context, are par­ local authority elections in Queensland­ ticularly significant for the Aboriginal people, is included in this amending Bill, although and seek to continue certain existing rights there is some doubt that an election could be of those people in the two communities. held before that time. No decision has yet It is largely those existing rights, and the been made on that. It is not legally possible, preservation of these rights, with which this at the moment, to have elections earlier amending Bill is concerned. than 'March 1979, without an amendment to the Act, and even if it were possible to It has been a bone of contention, since have such elections the Act would require the principal Act was passed, that leases further elections to be held in March 1979. have not yet been formally granted to the The Act is very specific in that respect. local authorities at Aurukun and Mornington Island. However, there have ,been good This amending Bill therefore provides that, reasons for the delay. During efforts to as presently authorised in the Local Govern­ prepare the appropriate leases, it 'became ment Act, the Governor in Council may evident that something needed to be done direct (by Order in Council) that, if a about defining the precise areas to be covered council election is held earlier than the by each lease. Under the Act, the leases scheduled 1979 elections, the members so were to embrace only lands which were elected may remain in office until the 1982 included in the former Aboriginal reserves triennial elections. This avoids the prospective at the two centres. These excluded reserves need to hold two elections within a short time. held by the Director of Aboriginal and It is largely a matter of logistics whether Islanders Advancement for departmental and or not an election could, in fact, be held official purposes which were set aside at before the last Saturday in March, bearing another time and in another context. in mind the 31 December closing date for rolls and the time that needs to be It has been necessary to identify the areas allowed for calling nominations, printing at each centre that should be reserved for ballot papers and delivering ballot papers specific public purposes, such as education, and other election materials to the two health (including hospitals), police, and centres. A further matter to 'be considered departmental and official purposes, keeping is that the shire clerk at Aurukun will not in mind the needs relating to each particular take up office until 15 January 1979, and function. What this amending Bill now he should be allowed a familiarisation period by each lease. Under the Act, the leases before being asked to conduct the elections. will be granted to the local authorities for As well, the location of the two local auth­ the entire area of each shire, but that orities would certainly affect the time within provision will be made for the Governor in which elections could be held. Council to excise from the leased areas reserves for prescribed public purposes. These Some doubts have been expressed about the are defined as including (among other things) rights of residence of public servants in lands for departmental and official purposes the two shires, and it would seem that under educational institutions or education purposes: the existing Act the right of a State officer police purposes, and health purposes (includ­ to reside in the shires depends on whether ing hospitals). The old reserves for depart­ he is pe])forming a function under a State mental and official purposes (previously held Act or for the local authority. It is con­ by the Director of Aboriginal and Islanders sidered essential that State and Common­ Advancement) will be abolished, and new wealth officers should not be prevented from reserves will be created in appropriate places carrying out their normal duties in these for prescribed public purposes. The new shire areas. Accordingly the situation in reserves decided on are shown on maps regard to entry is clarified in the Bill, so included as schedules to the Bill. that a State or Commonwealth officer will have a right of residence in the two shires The Bill also provides for additional reserva­ if he is carrying out a function under a tions for prescribed public purposes at each State or Commonwealth Act, and if he centre of lands approximately 4 ha in area. is performing a function for the local auth­ As the need arises in the future, these ority or for the inhabitants of the area. reserves will be used for departmental housing and office accommodation. In addition to With elections to be held in 1979, it would be anomalous if a person lawfully removed the reserves I have just referred to, the from either of the shires by order of the power for the Governor in Council to reserve council, but who was qualified to be nomina­ additional lands for public purposes, not ted or elected as chairman or member of exceeding 500 ha at Aurukun and 100 ha at the council, could nominate and possibly be Mornington Island as !'reviously agreed, is elected. This amending Bill removes any preserved. such right. 3254 Local Government [5 DECEMBER 1978] (Aboriginal Lands), &c., Bill

On the subject of council meetings, a Since the Act was passed, consideration minor amendment is made to the date upon has been given to the legal situation in which the first meeting of either council respect of roads in the shires and, in fact, may be held, after the election. This is there would seem to be no dedicated roads. a machinery provision to allow for the I think honourable members accept that it possibility of an election earlier than 31 is desirable, for many reasons, to recognise March 1979 although, as pointed out pre­ the existence of public roads. This is neces­ viously, no decision has been made in that sary, for example, to preserve the rights respect. of road users and to implement the general laws of the State. This amending Bill pro­ An important item of general and local vides that roads constructed or formed interest in both areas is the sale and supply within the shires, either before or after of beer to the two communities. While commencement of the amending Act, will be the two shire areas were Aboriginal reserves, recognised as public roads. there was a right to establish and maintain premises for the sale and supply of beer Provision is made for the roads to be in the two communities. This right was delineated on maps held in the Department exercised at Mornington Island and a can­ of Mapping and Survey, with copies held teen was established before the local authority in the Department of Local Government, was created. It is desired that this right be and at the office of the councils. The continued, and the Bill so provides. At location of a road may, in some cases, the same time, I would stress that no be shown by a dotted line, and, where obligation is placed on either council to the width of the road is not specified on establish and maintain canteens. the map, it will be taken to be 60 m. The roads will be taken to be dedicated roads, The Aurukun Shire Council need not have and the provisions of the Main Roads Act, a canteen, if that is the view of the com­ the Traffic Act and any other Act having munity and its elected council after the reference to roads will be applied. elections. I am advised that strong objec­ tions have been raised by the former Abori­ There will be one restriction on the roads ginal council members at Aurukun to any not generally applicable, however. This is suggestion that the community be required that the right of users of roads in the to have a canteen and I would assure them shire will be restricted to persons entitled that there is no compulsion in the exer­ to be in the shire at the material time. cise of this power. I repeat that if Aurukun This is consistent ·with the right of entry people do not want a canteen they need not provisions of the Act and, if not applied, have one. would render the right-of-entry provisions virtually inoperative. Mornington Island has a canteen, and it is clear that the people there want it to The position of the administrator appointed continue. The right to continue it is vali­ to administer the functions of the two shire councils from 15 August 1978 is clarified dated by this amending Bill. The canteen in this Bill. Specifically, the administrator will be conducted by a nominee of the coun­ is authorised to carry on the Mornington cil approved by the Governor in Council. Island canteen and exercise the same powers This is consistent with the present provisions as the council in the use of any surplus of the Local Government Act, which applies money from this canteen operation for the to licensed premises conducted by local welfare of the residents, and for the works authorities elsewhere. and services associated with such welfare. Rights to stock in trade, fittings and cash It is proposed that each council be given relating to the canteen account and the power to make by-laws relating to the estab­ general account of the council of the Shire lishment and maintenance of canteen pre­ of Mornington are passed to the administra­ mises, and for the sale, supply and con­ tor. A guarantee has been given to the sumption of beer at these premises. It Bank of New South Wales in respect of has been the practice that profits from the the operation by the administrator of these canteen be used for the welfare of residents funds in the course of his administration of the shire. generally. This Bill provides for that prac­ tice to be continued for the general benefit The Bill validates this action, which was of the community. I feel, and I am sure all necessary to ensure continuity of administra­ members will agree, that this practice should tion at Mornington Island. Without these be preserved. various actions, the canteen would have had to close, and local people would have been The Liquor Act will not apply to these inconvenienced. As well, creditors awaiting canteens, with the exception of section 81, payment of outstanding accounts would not which deals with drunken and disorderly have been paid, although funds were avail­ persons. For the purposes of section 81, able to meet these commitments. The the premises at which beer is sold will be Governor in Council is empowered to settle deemed to be premises of a licensee, and any disputes in respect of the funds, but I the person conducting such business as the feel it unlikely that any disputes will arise. council's nominee will be deemed to be the Regard is being given by the administrator licensee. to prior commitments of these funds. Local Government [5 DECEMBER 1978] (Aboriginal Lands), &c., Bill 3255

This amending Bill provides that, on elec­ administrator of the Aurukun and Mornington tion of the two councils, property and liabili­ Shires, Mr. Ken Brown. As honourable ties vested in the administrator will pass to members would know, the appointment of the councils. Mr. Brown as administrator, pending the holding of initial local government elections As previously indicated, maps are included in both areas, was not foreseen or planned. in the schedules to this Bill showing lands However, I believe that events have proven to be reserved for prescribed public purposes that this was the only course open to the at Aurukun and Mornington Island. These Government to maintain local government reservations meet the wishes of the local self-management as a prospect for these people that the appropriate State departments people. and organisations be responsible for their own functions at Aurukun and Mornington I believe that events have completely Island in the same manner as in other parts vindicated the stand taken by both the State of the State. Thus, the reserve covering and Commonwealth Governments in con­ the school will be under the control of sultation with other interested parties. I the Education Department, hospital reserves further believe that this legislation will prove will be under the administration of the to be a milestone in the history of local appropriate hospitals board, and so on. government in Queensland and Australia, and the State Government's policies in regard to Following the passing of this Bill and its Aboriginal people, based on actual equality, proclamation, it will be possible for leases not false or alleged equality, will be proven to be granted quickly to the local authorities, to be correct. and the local communities will be put on a proper footing for the transition to elected I commend the Bill to the Committee. local government under the Act. Over recent months, advances of money from Consoli­ Mr. PREST (Port Curtis) (11.58 p.m.): As dated Revenue have been made to the two usual, the Opposition welcomes amendments councils for administrative purposes, and to any Act that will better the lot of the honourable members would be well aware people in any area. Tonight we are amend­ that shire clerks have been appointed and ing legislation that was introduced earlier will shortly take up duty in both places. in the vear when we were told that two Administrative procedures are being devel­ new local authorities, the Aurukun and oped for the handling of accounts and the Mornington Shires, were to be created and offices of the councils. Of course, all this that the Aborigines living in those two shires will aid the newly elected councils when would be independent and able to run their they take over responsibility for the local own affairs on a basis of equality with people government affairs of the two shires after living in any other local authority. the elections. Although the dissolution of the "deemed" With these amendments we see that some councils and the appointment of an adminis­ of these predictions are coming true. One trator were criticised at the time, I feel that in particular is the provision allowing the local authority, when it is elected, to run a the opportunity was thereby given for a canteen on Aurukun, as is done on Morning­ short settling down period, and for the ton Island. We believe that is only fair and ultimate development of more effective local just. Any good citizen who works hard government. I consider that essential changes should be able to enjoy a drink of his choice in personnel and outlook in the two areas with his wife or family at any given time. have been facilitated, and that the elected Whether we like it or not, drink of some councils will face the New Year-and the following new era at both communities­ sort can be obtained by these Aborigines. much better informed and better acquainted It is better to have the canteen controlled with local government procedures, and with by the members of the council who are locally based trained staff to support them. elected by the people in the area. They will The importance of staff with adequate train­ be able to control the drinking habits of the ing in local government cannot be over­ people to a certain extent. They will have stressed. the power, under this legislation, to take I believe that the issues in this Bill are action against people who get under the very clear-cut and non-controversial, and I weather or who become a little bit obstre­ am sure they will be seen as such by perous. It is better for the people to drink honourable members. I believe that the pro­ the liquor available at the canteen than to visions are fair and reasonable and will be concoct brews that are not only bad but acceptable and satisfactory to all concerned. also detrimental to their health. Finalisation of this Bill has entailed con­ We expressed some strong opposition to siderable consultation with various State and the earlier legislation that was introduced. Federal Government authorities and other 'Ve can now see that things are working involved par,ties, and I am very happy to out according to plan. At that time we report on the degree of co-operation received wanted the elections for the Aurukun and all round in this respect. In particular, also, Mornington Island councils to be held as I cannot stress too highly the job that has quickly as possible. We now find, some been done, and still is being done, by the months later, that it has not been possible to 3256 Local Government (5 & 6 DECEMBER 1978] (Aboriginal Lands), &c., Bill

hold council elections because the shire in which I discussed Mornington Island and clerks have not taken up duty. In fact, they mentioned the names of certain people who will not take up duty until the middle of were involved in upsetting the community January. By the time voters are enrolled and there. That speech brought out all the the machinery is put into operation, it will stirrers, and I got the media coverage of it probably be the end of March. That is when that was necessary. the triennial local authority elections will be held. That is also when the people of Auru­ Recently I again visited Mornington Island kun and Mornington Island will elect coun­ with the Minister for Education, and I am cils to replace those that were dismissed when sure that the stirrers there would have been the previous legislation was passed. This does surprised to see how pleased the people were not apply only to Aurukun and Mornington to welcome us. The Minister opened a new Island; the same situation applies to the school and the people turned out in their Gold Coast, but we are not talking about hundreds. Festivities included a hangi of that tonight. The election of councils for turtle and dugong. Aurukun and Mornington Island has been delayed for too long. We believe that the However, I am still deeply concerned that electors in those areas should elect a council white people such as Marlene Hodder and of their choice at the earliest possible John Ormonde are allowed to remain at opportunity. Mornington Island and Aurukun and given a chance to stir again. If the Minister wishes We cannot see anything wrong with the to see local government work in the area, I other amendments. We believe that it is in the strongly recommend to him that he take best interests of the local authorities and positive steps to remove from Mornington the people there that areas of land within the Island those who are associated with move­ reserves, or the local authorities, be set aside ments that do not have the welfare of the for public purposes, and the sooner the Aboriginal people at heart. People with better. The work should be handed over to ulterior motives and stirrers of the type that the various authorities to allow services of an I have mentioned must not be allowed to acceptable standard to be provided for these remain there to continually attack the people. They should be as good as the Government. services provided in other local authorities. One of the people mentioned by me in my We offer no opposition to the proposal earlier speech is a woman named Marlene to dedicate public roads within these areas. Hodder. She prints a weekly news-letter, and We believe that it will be in the best inter­ at the botom it states quite clearly-! have ests of the people and will provide them with not a copy here-that she is printing it. It is some form of protection. As the roads are to purely anti-State-Government literature. be dedicated as public roads, some finance should be made available to upgrade them. Although it incorporates some news, the news has a crack at the State Government. While At this stage, we offer no objection to that women remains a member of the council, these amendments but we will be looking at we will never get the right mood among the Bill closely, when it is printed. I repeat members of the Aboriginal community, and that it is better to have the canteen under I am sure that the Minister sees the wisdom the control of some authority. Recently, dur­ of having her removed from the island. ing the brewery strike, there were complaints about Aborigines from Woorabinda going to A number of other people are going to Baralaba and coming back with a little bit Mornington Island and causing trouble. Ted of grog. They were confronted by the police Loban, the Queensland chairman of the and the grog was taken off them. They lost National Aboriginal Council, visited the their money and someone made a catch. island last week and for about three or four days spoke to members of the community. If there is no canteen at Aurukun or He was supporting the Mornington Island Mornington Island, the people living in those Land Rights Committee. He stated areas will get liquor by some other means. clearly that he had lost his left arm in World Let us control the selling of liquor. We are War II fighting against the German occupa­ not forcing the people there to have a can­ tion of Greece, and he said that he was teen. The amendment states that a canteen prepared to lose his right arm fighting the will be provided at the discretion of the Queensland Government's attempt to occupy people who are duly elected to the council Mornington Island and Aurukun. It is abso­ by the residents of the area. lutely ridiculous to have supposedly respon­ The proposed amendments will improve sible people, supported by the Federal Gov­ the lot for the people of Aurukun and ernment, making statements like that. It is Mornington Island. quite obvious that if we allow that sort of thing to continue, local government will not be able to operate properly at Mornington [Wednesday, 6 December 1978] Island and Aurukun. Mr. BERTONI (Mt. Isa) (12.5 a.m.): Our old friend Mickey Miller, the self­ Honourable members may recall my speech appointed Left-wing operator of the North on the Financial Statement on 12 October, Queensland Aboriginal Lands Gouncil, who Local Government [5 & 6 DECEMBER 1978] (Aboriginal Lands), &c., Bill 3257

was recently given a grant of $15,000 by the I sincerely hope that there ,will be declared World Council of Churches, was reported as public mads. The Minister mentioned the saying- Main Roads Act and other legislation. Does " If the situation for us Aboriginals does that mean that all vehicles on Mornington not get better soon we 'Will end up forming Island ,will have to be registered and covered guerilla troops who will take the law into by comprehensive ,and third-party insurance, their own hands." and other conditions that apply to other motorists in QueensLand? ]jf this is so, certain That is the type of person we are allowing problems will arise in the registration by to move within the Aboriginal communi,ty, Aborigines of vehicles on the island. Pre­ agitating amongst the good, decent Aborig­ viously, ,the vehicles on 1the reserve were not inal people who, I know, want ,to be ,left required to comply with the regulations. alone. I have spoken to members of the former council, and ,they do want the local Recently I visited Doomadgee. The council, authority to work in the area. They are in discussions with me, made it quite clear determined 'to allow it to work. While we that it did not want a canteen on the reserve. have such people as 'Miller on the island, It has been bandied around that Tony there is no way in the world that local Assam, of the National Aboriginal Council, government can work to i,ts full extent. has been bringing beer onto the reserve. The council does not want beer to be sold on The Minister mentioned that a lease would the reserve, yet an official Commonwealth be granted. Definite conditions should be servant, if I might describe him as such­ included in the lease requiring that the land he is certainly paid by the Commonwealth be developed and not be allowed to become Government-brings alcohol onto the reserve. barren waste land under the Federal guise of The police are powerless to catch him. He the so-called out-station movement, which operates a tourist bus and tells the passengers condemns A:boriginal citizens of this State that if the bus is stopped and searched and to reverting to a traditional Aboriginal way alcohol is found on board, they are to claim of life, which is something :toLally impossible it is theirs. I sincerely hope that the Govern­ in this day and age. I think it is futile and ment looks at the problems arising there. useless for any Government to encourage people to chase rufter rainbows, when it is In each of the areas a land-rights com­ patently apparent to anyone that the areas mittee has been formed. Recently I spoke to of land available will never support the Mr. Roger Pettit on this subject. A report increasing number of A!boriginal people 1n a appeared in the Press to the effect that a truly traditional Aboriginal way of life. committee from Mornington Island had gone south to discuss the problems arising on I believe that it is totally and morally the island. The committee went into what we wrong for any Government to suggest and term the "Bermuda Triangle", between encourage A!boriginal people to revert to the Brisbane, Sydney, Canberra and Melbourne. impossEble. Therefore in the lease there The sum of $2,500 was collected to help the should be a requirement that the vast areas committee in its cause. I asked Roger Pettit be developed, and developed :to the maximum who paid the air fares for the committee economic state, thus encouraging the people members to travel south. He advised me that they were paid by a civil liberties group, to be sdf-sufficient and mel'ge with the the anti-uranium people and-of all parties-­ normal social stream of this State, rather the Labor Party. It was actually paying the than condemning them to la me of per,petual fares. Certain persons are involving them­ intei!ectual parasitism, sponging on the public selves in land-rights issues simply to set up purse for ever and ever. The lease should stirrers within the community. It is quite require the development of the land slowly, obvious that, if something positive is not bit by bit, so that those Aborigines can done on the islands, the people on them will become self-sufficient. not settle down within our local government system as we know it. I listened with interest ,to the Minister's remarks about a canteen. In my earlier I commend the Bill and congratulate the speech I referred to the fact that about Minister on its introduction. $39,000 woPth of beer was missing from Mornington Island over a ,period of nine Mr. SCOTI (Cook) (12.18 a.m.): There months. That was ,the total value of three is no doubt that, in establishing these two lots ,that were missing-$15,000 worth, shires, the Minister has created a Pandora's $16,000 worth and $8,000 worth. I hope box. It is well known that he was talked into that that sort of ,thing ,wi1J not happen again. their establishment and that he went into the The maHer was not investigated at ,that .time. situation not of his own volition. The Govern­ I am led to believe that the Mornington ment became aware that its Aboriginal Island canteen was making about $200,000 affairs policy was in tatters. This became profit a year. That amount of money could particularly apparent after the appointment be very beneficial if it went back to .the of Mr. Porter as Minister for Aboriginal ,people through ,the council. The canteen and Island Affairs. must be run on proper lines so that the benefits of it can be passed on to ,the people I do not think Queensland has gone of Mornington Island. through a more shocking era than that 3258 Local Government [5 & 6 DECEMBER 1978) (Aboriginal Lands), &c., Bill

following the appointment of Mr. Porter as Local Government the thought that it is Minister. He felt he could pick up the possible for these people to administer their Department of Aboriginal and Islanders own affairs at Mornington Island and Auru­ Advancement and treat it as he would a kun. Where does the Minister stand? He puppet. What he overlooked, of course, was cannot tell me, because the difference exists. that that department has its own puppet. He did not take that department anywhere The Minister for Local Government is verv at all. Nevertheless, he did a lot of trumpet­ much aware of the responsibility placed o~ ing and braying around the State. his shoulders. When he introduced the 15-page Bill, we were told that it would pro­ In time, the Government perceived that it vide for all the needs of Aurukun and Morn­ would get nowhere on that tack, so it headed ington Island; that this legislation would set off in another direction. This is totally up the local authorities and give them separ­ strange from a Government that bandies ate development and independence. It has around words such as "apartheid" and been found to be very weak, as has so much "separate development". If ever there was of the other legislation that has been intro­ separate development, it exists at Aurukun duced in haste by the Government. This is and on Mornington Island, as well as in but another instance of hastily introduced other Aboriginal communities. The situation legislation. That is why I referred to Pan­ in Queensland is absolutely laughable. It dora's box. must be making the Government's policies It would have been much simpler to leave laughable in every place but Queensland. As the Aborigines Act as it was, as it strongly I shall demonstrate very clearly, one side is supported Aboriginal policy. It was unneces­ in glaring opposition to the other. One has sary to bring the Minister for Local Govern­ only to note that important legislation is ment into Aboriginal affairs. The Aborigines introduced well after midnight to realise the Act is a very simple Act to administer. All extent of the Government's concern about a that is needed is rubber-stamping by the Min­ very important area of the State. A glaring ister of what the director says. The Minister example of the Government's lack of con­ for Local Government is finding that looking cern is illustrated by the introduction of after this slim Act is a totally different matter. legislation at this late hour of the night when Amendments outlined by the Minister tonight it cannot be debated fully. I need do no will expand the Act to such an extent that it more than hold up this very comprehensive will be comparable with the more than 400- report of the Aboriginal and Islander Com­ page Local Government Act. The Minister mission which was tabled in this Assembly. perceives that that will be necessary. The CHAIRMAN: Order! That report In terms of administering his new respon­ refers to the Aborigines and the Torres Strait sibilities, the Minister for Local Government Islanders Acts. It does not refer to the has been quite good. He has taken the job Bill presently under discussion. seriously. I know that he wants to make a success of it. He has a rational approach, which is different from the approach of the Mr. SCOTT: I beg your leave, Mr. Minister for Aboriginal and Island Affairs to Hewitt-- his portfolio. Because the Minister has a rational approach, it must worry him that he The CHAIRMAN: Order! I cannot give was given an Act by his departmental people the honourable member leave. We are talk­ which was said to be all that was required ing about the Local Government (Aboriginal but which he now finds has to be changed Lands) Act. radically. This is only the beginning of the amendments that we will be faced with and Mr. SCOTT: That is right. I am highlight­ the legislation that will have to be introduced ing the difference between the way in which on a recurring basis. the two groups of Aboriginal communities are being treated. That is very pertinent to Look at the requirements for the leases. the amendments we are debating. A large How is it possible for the Minister to tell report was tabled dealing with all Aborigines us that this is all that is required when the living at places other than Aurukun and Bill contains nothing specific about the most Mornington Island. It contains recommenda­ important matter of leases, the very matter tions and says certain things, but no regard that has been troubling the responsible is being paid to these most important recom­ Aboriginal people of the community, the mendations in the Shire of Aurukun, which council people who were dismissed so concerns me so much. summarily by the Government? They are concerned with land and in this case their It is envisaged that in the next decade the land will be controlled by the leases. On departmental forces will withdraw progres­ different visits up there I have asked if they sively as reserve community councils mature have seen any sign of surveyors and they and attain the necessary expertise and stature. said, "No. There have been no surveyors." That statement is in the report that you, I knew then that the Minister would fall foul Mr. Hewitt, will not allow me to discuss. I of the fact that there was nothing technical in must highlight the fact that the report refers the terms of these leases. The Bill has been to a decade of development, yet we have found wanting in that regard. It is a major had thrust upon us by the Department of deficiency. Local Government [5 & 6 DECEMBER 1978] (Aboriginal Lands), &c., Bill 3259

What about the Aboriginal houses that are government in the other areas of Queensland built on these areas that will be excised? and main roads. Those two important areas I hope that the Minister is aware of this of administration are sufficient to take up fact and that some provision covering them the energy of the Minister, without any is contained in the Bill. In the other area of doubt at all. Aboriginal activity, there is some talk of leases being brought into force in the amend­ Canteens are completely overlooked. They ments to the Act that we will be faced with. are dismissed very easily in the Aborigines The term "leases" is creeping in for people Act, which provides- living in those areas. I hope that the Minister "The Director acting in conjunction with for Local Government has been fully the Aboriginal Council (if any) established informed of the special requirements for for a reserve may cause to be established people whose houses and other buildings may and maintained in the reserve premises for be on the lease areas that are being excised. the sale and supply of beer to persons law­ It is necessary to do something to define fully on the reserve." these areas precisely. That Aot is just as applicable to Aurukun The very important matter of Government and Mornington Island as ,it is to the other officials who were not able to be present at areas, but the Minister now has to have Aurukun or Mornington Island is another his liHle parallel Act incorpomting a similar major omission. It shows the lack of care provision. Why was it overlooked in ,the first in drafting the legislation and it is a slight instance, and why is it now necessary? on this Parliament that such legislation can be brought before it. Land rights have been mentioned. The honourable member for Mt. Isa always gets Elections were far from resolved when the on his hobby-horse when this subject is original legislation was introduced in this mentioned and uses this fomm to criticise Chamber. We were fed a whole lot of quite honourable people who are doing their nonsense that elections would be held very job as they see 1t. The honourable member quickly. When I questioned the Minister on is quite happy 'to tear their charaoters apar.t that matter, he adopted the sloped-shoulder in a p1ace where he knows his statements tactic of saying that it was in the hands of are privileged, lbut of course he will not the Electoral Office. He did say, through the tackle these people outside the 01amber. administrator, that it might be possible to For a start, he mentioned Mr. Loban, an hold the elections in three months' time at elected member of the Nilltional Aboriginal the earliest or seven months' time at the Council. He is a very responsible person latest. By a very strange coincidence, seven who happens to know what he is ,talking months from August takes us to the end of about. He is ,a coloured person who takes March. That is when I predicted the elections great pride in that fact. He accepts that he would take place, and that is when I know L~ a coloured person. He knows a great deal now that they will take place. about the situation of his people up in the Torres Stra1t, and if he wants to go to I am concerned about rating in the new Mornington Island or Aurukun to give the shires. There is no mention of that in the people there ,the benefit of his vast e~perience Bill and it will be the subject of another Bill there is no doubt that he has ,the right to when we resume next year. It has been do so, and he should not be denigrated by concerning the commissioners, who have been people such as the honourable member. examining the total Aboriginal situation, and there is an expectation that charges will be He also mentioned Mick Miller and .the implemented for services such as cleaning, other people who are overseas. They are sewerage and water supply, which will rise fighting the cause of the Aboriginal people as steeply in accordance with other comparable they see fit. local authority areas, and that fees will be levied for other Government services now Mr. Bertoni: Do you believe members of provided as a benefit. Of course, in his intro­ the Na,tional Aboriginal Council should 1be ductory speech, the Minister said nothing on reserves when the council says it does about fees, charges and rates. They are most not ·want them? Do you 'believe the Na.tional important matters. Aboriginal Council should be given that right? The dedication of roads was mentioned capably by our shadow Minister. How the Mr. SCOTT: Is the honourable member Government could consider establishing a talking about the council that was summarily local authority area without giving thought dismissed by his Government? He does not to the dedication of roads amazes me. Those know what he is talking about. He cannot are three major areas where the Government talk a:bout councils in those areas. This has been at fault in not giving any serious once again shows his lack of knowledge in a thought to this most important area of vital area of Aboriginal affairs. administration. The sta,tement by the honoura:ble member I said before that the Minister for Local tha,t the A.L.P. paid the fare of some person Government has a responsible attitude who was going down to the area he called the towards this job, but his main job is local Bermuda Triangle is not even worth refuting. 3260 Local Government [5 & 6 DECEMBER 1978] (Aboriginal Lands), &c., Bill

I would not be bothered •wasting time. There the Minister in his own heart knows that is no need to di&prove it. The honourruble that would have been much better, too. member aloo mentioned outstations. I have Nevertheless, it was done by the Govern­ visited outstations in ,the Aurukun area on ment and it could not be undone without several occasions. The people there .take a loss of face, and there is no way in great pride in what they are doing. They which members opposite would countenance are occupied in the practical application of a loss of face. The Minister did the next land rights. The people of Perot Outstation best thing and appointed a man who has under Mr. Walrnby certainly know what they a great deal of sympathy with Aborigines. are about. They centaJinly know the meaning With his long experience in the Torres land has :for them. They have a need for Strait area, Mr. Brown was able to apply their own land, land .to which .they have himself to meeting the requirements of that been tied oo strongly right from the dream­ community very adequately. time. The honour.able member for Mt. Isa can smile. That sol't of thing means nothing It is worth my while to deal for a a•t all to him. He has absolutely no idea of moment with canteens. It will be interest­ the meaning that bnd has for Aboriginal ing to see whether the Aurukun council, people. when it is re-elected, will opt for a can­ teen. Canteens have become the focal point I am not talking in terms of subdivided of social life for Aboriginal communities, real estate, which lis all the honourable just as hotels, clubs and other places that member thinks about, with dollar signs in dispense alcohol in our community are the front of his eyes like most nther Govern­ focal points of our social activities. Can­ ment members. Subdivision is the only ·thing teens are the focal point of social life in he thinks of in terms of .land. The feeling Aboriginal communities, because we have that an Aboriginal person has for the land taken strong steps towards destroying the is a totally different concept. I could ,talk Aborigines' culture as they knew it. There at some •length about that most important is no doubt about that. We have done our aspect of their culture, but unfortunately best to destroy their culture, and what have this Bill has relegated it ,to history. Land we given them in return? I could give a rights are obviously not going to be con­ long list of things, but I would rather sidered by this Government, although when not mention them. Alcohol is one the the A.L.P. comes to power in .this State it things that we have given Aborigines in will be a most important aspect of our policy. return for the loss of their wonderful cul­ ture. That is something with which they The Minister talked about a settling-down still have to come to grips, and it is vitally period. That is what I ca11 the euphemism important that they be given the opport­ to end all euphemisms. His Govemment unity to do so. sacked the council, and he talks about a settling-down pe!Lod! Does he really know Some of the communities in my electorate the uncertainty ·that that action caused in have canteens and some have not. In some those communities? I honestly do not think of them, the canteens function quite suc­ he does. I have said before in this place cessfully. I mention very briefly Kowan­ that the people there were left to iliive nn a yama and Edward River, two communities vacuum, and that is exactly the situation •the which are side by side. The canteen at Government caused. The dismissed council­ Kowanyama operates successfully, because lors had to reassert their tribal authori1ty. Of it is located in the type of building that course, Government members said t:o •them, allows it to operate successfully. The can­ "Well, you really have the authority as teen at Edward River does not operate suc­ councillors. We know you are the respected cessfully. I take the Minister for Aboriginal elders. You have the authority. The prob­ and Island Affairs to task, because in corres­ lems in the community will be sorted out pondence to me he tried to imply that by you." They inflicted 1the greatest of a11 I was criticising the Aboriginal council at insults by dismissing .the councils, and they Edward River. What I want for that com­ can never deny that. The people in the munity is a better canteen, and I know areas win never get over it. That is one of that it is within his power to give it to the factors that have motivated them to them. I urge him to give serious thought fight very strongly against the legislation to that matter. which was brought into this Chamber and over which they had no control. (Time expired.) I was pleased to note that the Minister gave due credit to Mr. Ken Brown, and Hon. R. .J. HINZE (South Coast­ I support him very much in that regard. I Minister for Local Government and Main was present at Aurukun on the occasion Roads) (12.38 a.m.), in reply: I thank the of one of Mr. Brown's visits. I compliment members for Port Curtis and Mt. Isa for Mr. Brown. He is a gentleman, and he their contributions to the debate and indicate acts like one. It was very pleasing to me that I will endeavour to answer their con­ that a man of his calibre was appointed tributions at the second-reading stage. I administrator. I did not want to see an commend the Bill to the Committee. administrator appointed; I would have been Motion (Mr. Hinze) agreed to. much happier if the councils had remained m control of the reserves. I know that Resolution reported. Panel of Temporary Chairmen [6 DECEMBER 1978] Questions Upon Notice 3261

FmsT READING Bill presented and, on motion of Mr. Hinze, read a first time. The House adjourned at 12.40 a.m. (Wednesday).